# Show driving question?? Why the slack in the breast collor?



## Pwest2u2 (Feb 6, 2011)

I have done limited breed shows, but I do a lot of "B" system shows and have taken lesson's from some pretty good judges. I have always been told when driving you want a steady tightness on you breast collar/traces, that the judges doesn't want to see them flapping. But I just wathced a trainers videos of serveral horses and there was no contact on the breast collar at all. They were totally pulling with the saddle! I have seen many pictures at nations and they same way. So have I been told wrong are they suppose to be pulling with the saddle and not the breast collar/traces? I might be doing some breed shows this year.

thanks,

Patty


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## Kendra (Feb 6, 2011)

There is a school of thought in the breed ring right now that says that the horse shouldn't pull from the breast collar because it will hamper their front end movement. I disagree.


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## R Whiteman (Feb 6, 2011)

Kendra is "dead on". This is the same thinking that has produced over tight checks because by forcing the horses head up, you can lift that front end and sit the horse on his butt. From that thought it seems logical to assume you will need to release the tension on the breast collar so as to not inhibit all that action you just made. But how about the martingale?? Some of the traditions of the show ring occur because we all see the other guy doing things with horses and when that guy wins, the actions (good or bad) spread like wildfire. And if a little will work, then more will work better. I love showing my driving horses and have been pretty successful by watching and listening like you are, and then picking out those things that work for me and for my horses. If it is outside of your comfort zone (and your horse's of course), then don't do it. Judges do know what they are looking at and will place a horse who goes against the 'mold' because he is a good horse, driven nicely to the standard set by the rules, and without all the current fads. Good luck with your horse next season.

Dorothy


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## Minxiesmom (Feb 6, 2011)

Patty,

I think I just watched that same video and noticed the same thing. It is a common trainer's practice. I believe it puts undo pressure on the saddle. If the horse is trained properly, it will have the same action with the breast collar pulling as without. On good footing, there is so very little pressure on the breast collar and, once started, it takes practically nothing to pull the cart. When the footing is not so wonderful, the horse is thankful that they are not pulling with the saddle and can lean into the breast collar.

I believe this is a trend that comes from "monkey see, monkey do". If so-and-so is doing it and winning, it must be better. It is a hand me down habit from the Saddlebreds and Arabs. I'll bet those horses didn't move any different when the traces were taught. The weight ratio with the big horses made it not so imperative to pull with the traces. With our little guys the weight ratio is usually about 1/1, in other words, they are pulling their own weight. That makes it so much more important to give them the advantage of pushing into the breast collar.

If you ever read the book by Barb Lee, "Understanding Harness", you would even better understand the physics of how the horses are pulling. Using a neck collar makes it even more efficient for the little ones to pull, but that is an entire "nother" issue. Some people feel it is criminal to use a breast collar vs. a neck collar, for the comfort of the horse. This has been an interesting subject that I have studied and observed in practical use.


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## RhineStone (Feb 6, 2011)

The only way to "fix" this practice is through education of both the drivers and the judges. Knowing the "whys" of techniques will certainly curb the "monkey see, monkey do".

To use good dressage principles to understand how the horse is moving mechanically.... if it is working well off it's hind end, not through the use of a check, but through solid training, it is actually "pushing" the cart and the cart happens to be attached via the chest. Attaching the cart via the girth actually "pinches" the horse and cannot possibly produce the relaxation necessary for a World Class driving horse. (Relaxation doesn't necessarily mean "calm", but comfortable both mentally and physically.) Pushing the cart won't happen with forcing the horse into an upright, hollow frame, where the hind legs trail behind the horse instead of tracking up underneath themselves. That is one of my true cues as to whether or not the horse is really using themselves correctly. A LOT of "show" horses are not really using themselves effeciently and correctly. They cannot possibly maintain that frame for too long. BUT teaching a horse to use itself correctly takes TIME to develop which is something that a lot of trainers and owners don't have the patience for. So what wins? Whatever horse has the flashiest movement.

I have seen some INCREDIBLE driving horses with movement that makes show horses look like plow horses, BUT they have been in training for YEARS with excellent dressage principles. World Champion (literally, not just the US) CDE driver Boyd Exell's horses gave me chills even now when I think about how his horses moved!




And they are just as "upright" as a show horse, but still tracking up and round...not high-headed, hollow and trailing.

Myrna


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## REO (Feb 6, 2011)

Hanging, flapping, slack traces have bugged the crap out of me for YEARS!

I've seen some almost down the the horse's knees in a standing photo! It looks STUPID, yet it seems that's all I ever see in both moving and standing still driving photos.



(yes I mean mini breed show photos)

Part of the reason I didn't want to show in driving is because I felt we wouldn't have placed (although my horse is awesome) based on proper harnessing (no dragging traces) and the fact that my horse doesn't need a martingale and they seem to be required to "conform".





WHEW! Been holding THAT in for YEARS! That felt good!


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## Pwest2u2 (Feb 6, 2011)

Wow great answers everyone, thanks a bunch. There is no way I would go in a ring with that look. My other big pet peeve is the checks so tight the horse has to turn it's head to the side to get any type of relief. I have been told mine is too loose. From what I was told it was to keep your horse from putting it's head down to graze, back in the day. NOT to get a great head set, that should come from training in my book! But then what do I know! I am all about comfort and saftey for my horse, that will always be number 1! If I can win along they way, great, but I want my horse happy, safe and comfortable.


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## RhineStone (Feb 7, 2011)

REO said:


> Hanging, flapping, slack traces have bugged the crap out of me for YEARS! Part of the reason I didn't want to show in driving is because I felt we wouldn't have placed (although my horse is awesome) based on proper harnessing (no dragging traces) and the fact that my horse doesn't need a martingale and they seem to be required to "conform".
> 
> WHEW! Been holding THAT in for YEARS! That felt good!





west2u said:


> There is no way I would go in a ring with that look. My other big pet peeve is the checks so tight the horse has to turn it's head to the side to get any type of relief. I have been told mine is too loose. From what I was told it was to keep your horse from putting it's head down to graze, back in the day. NOT to get a great head set, that should come from training in my book! But then what do I know! I am all about comfort and saftey for my horse, that will always be number 1! If I can win along they way, great, but I want my horse happy, safe and comfortable.


Well, I think you guys have two options. You can show using techniques that you know are proper and good for the horse, it's conformation, and comfort, get an absolutely awesome performance and show the "big guys" how it can be done, AND/OR

You can bring your horses to American Driving Society shows where, by the nature of the rules, you cannot use a martingale and an overcheck, and sidechecks are tolerated but really not necessary. Get some wooden wheels for your vehicle and some breeching for your harness, and the rest of your breed show turnout is perfectly acceptable (at least for minis).

Here is what we started out with at the ADS shows. (The photo was actually taken at a State 4-H show. The reason the trace is slack is because she just stopped in the gate and he is "leaning" to the right.) Eventually, we added the breeching to the turnout and lost the thimbles because we found out that judges appreciated breeching. But my sister showed in this turnout for years and did well. She was even chosen as a Finalist for the Concours D' Elegance once. (The cart's suspension stunk but my sister was young. My back couldn't take it.) Needless to say, you don't need to make a huge investment from what you might already have to show ADS.





Yes, I think there is too much "Black Beauty syndrome" going on in the horse show world, especially on horses that aren't designed conformationally to hold their heads up. And there is a lot of people doing "monkey see, monkey do". First learn what the purpose of the equipment is for and THEN learn to use it in relation to YOUR horse.

I have a friend that tells a story at clinics she gives about monkey see, monkey do. It goes something like this: "There was a trap shoot. The best shooter came out and took an unusual stance [my friend acts this out] and shoots the shotgun with one arm and hits the target. So the other participants take up this stance and miss the target. They eventually ask the 1st shooter why he uses this unusual stance. He replies, 'My hemorrhoids are killing me, and this is the only comfortable way to shoot.'.

Always find out the "why" before you decide to try something. Good job to the OP for doing this!





Myrna


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## Kendra (Feb 7, 2011)

This reminds me of a clinic I was at many years ago, with a renowned horseman. He asked why my horse had a martingale on. I explained the whole story, but what it really boiled down to was, "Because everyone else did." His response was, "Win without it and everyone will be taking them off."

I definitely wouldn't let a trend like loose traces keep you out of the show ring! Your horse will give the best performance if he's comfotable with his harnessing, and no judge is ever going to think, "Gee, that horse had the best go, but he's pulling with his traces/has a loose sidecheck/wearing breeching." Trust me. Though there are a few who will think, "No martingale, dock a point." I usually just stick a martingale on for those judges, and make sure it's not interfering with my horse.

I showed my horse at AMHA shows with breeching. And since he has a moral aversion to checks (not me, I'm okay with using a check, so long as it's adjusted so the horse is comfortable with it), for the last two show seasons Hawk has shown with his side check buckled to his noseband instead of his bit. We've shown under 24 judges. No ONE has ever noticed, and it keeps him happy.

Here's Hawk this past show season, pulling from the breastcollar, wearing breeching, and with his "creative" sidecheck set up in a Classic Pleasure Driving class. He was Grand under one judge and Reserve under the other. And it doesn't look like it, but there were other horses in the class! ;-)


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## CZP1 (Feb 7, 2011)

I was telling my husband about this thread and he asked "why"? Horses can't pull from the saddle..even he knows that horse's shouldn't pull from the saddle. He isn't really an experienced horse person but he gets the mechanics of the horse. I applaud



west2U for the original post.


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## RhineStone (Feb 7, 2011)

For anyone reading that may not get it as to why horses should pull from the chest instead of the saddle, think of it this way: strap a belt around you underneath your armpits. Make sure it isn't too wide (we don't want too much leather on us...like those fancy show harnesses




) Get it as tight as you can so it doesn't slip. Now get some binder twine and attach yourself to a little red wagon and pull without using your arms. Make sure the wagon and contents weighs just about as much as you do. Now, do the same thing, but this time use your hips instead of your armpits and ribcage. Which one would you rather use?

Your hips are more like the horse's chest and shoulders (since we don't have space between our shoulders and neck). If you would get on all fours and use your ribcage, it would be even more uncomfortable.

So why do some people do this to their horse?





Kendra's clinician was absolutely right, "Win without it and everyone will be taking them off." You guys need to make it a trend to do it RIGHT, and make sure that everybody who poo-poos it knows absolutely why you did it!



"When you know better, you do better."

Myrna


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## disneyhorse (Feb 7, 2011)

Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. I've shown with and without martingales, with and without tight checks, and always with the breastcollar and traces "properly" hooked without wrapping or flapping.

I've placed well if my horse goes well. I do NOT think judges look down on one form of harnessing or another. They want to see how the horse goes.

Andrea


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## ruffian (Feb 7, 2011)

Ive always wondered why in the big horse world speed events you always see the rider whipping and clubbing with their legs every step. that's got to hurt and lessen the total performance. It's kind of the same thing when pulling with the saddle instead of the breastcollar.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 7, 2011)

Kendra said:


> There is a school of thought in the breed ring right now that says that the horse shouldn't pull from the breast collar because it will hamper their front end movement. I disagree.


I couldn't say it any more concisely. If I tried to add one more word I'd end up in a five paragraph rant!





You can pull from the saddle and cinch it down so tight the horse can't breathe in order to keep it from slipping backwards as it's naturally going to want to do, or you can do the much more ergonomic thing and run a band around the front of the horse where no pressure is required to keep it in place. Oh, wait. That's called a breastcollar....







R Whiteman said:


> Kendra is "dead on". This is the same thinking that has produced over tight checks because by forcing the horses head up, you can lift that front end and sit the horse on his butt.





Minxiesmom said:


> If you ever read the book by Barb Lee, "Understanding Harness", you would even better understand the physics of how the horses are pulling.


A wonderful combination of books to read is Barb Lee's book on harnessing and Deb Bennett's slim but powerful books on functional conformation. She talks about the "rocking horse" mentality, thinking that if you just pull the head up high enough that will force the hind end down, and shows you anatomically why that isn't true. They are well worth the read!



RhineStone said:


> I have a friend that tells a story at clinics she gives about monkey see, monkey do. It goes something like this: "There was a trap shoot. The best shooter came out and took an unusual stance [my friend acts this out] and shoots the shotgun with one arm and hits the target. So the other participants take up this stance and miss the target. They eventually ask the 1st shooter why he uses this unusual stance. He replies, 'My hemorrhoids are killing me, and this is the only comfortable way to shoot.'.
> Always find out the "why" before you decide to try something. Good job to the OP for doing this!


Love that story! It's a great example of the point you're trying to illustrate. I've had a judge say something to me about my check being too loose and I thanked him politely, explained that I have it loose because I compete primarily in carriage driving and want my horse to use his topline, and the judge smiled and accepted that. Debate over. I had a reason and that was good enough for him.





On the other hand I'm guilty of doing things the other way too. I have a martingale on Kody's show harness partially because everyone else does, but partially because I think it provides a better visual balance on his narrow chest than a show breastcollar without one does. It's adjusted loosely enough that he never hits it- what harm does it do? If it turns out he's going to be able to get back into showing after his layoff I may have the harness maker send me out a false martingale instead of a running martingale and see if I can start my own trend



but the running one has been fine. Unlike overtightening the wrap straps or checking him up higher than he's built to handle, a loose martingale doesn't harm anything. Ask the poor vendors who have had to deal with me- I'm obsessive about every little piece of my harness!



I know the reason for every single piece of it being the way it is and change all sorts of stuff to suit my particular horse and I.

Leia


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## REO (Feb 7, 2011)

Maybe it hasn't happened to everyone, but I _have_ heard about judges not placing horses because they didn't have a martingale. Because they thought that all else did, that the one not using one was not properly harnessed.





_Some_ judges don't know their ____ from their elbows.

That's what I'm saying.


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## Sue_C. (Feb 8, 2011)

> Maybe it hasn't happened to everyone, but I have heard about judges not placing horses because they didn't have a martingale. Because they thought that all else did, that the one not using one was not properly harnessed.


And yet they condone the improper use of the back saddle, which to me is a serious mis-use of equipment that is liable to sore a horse...and in the very best scenario, has to be terribly uncomfortable.



> Some judges don't know their ____ from their elbows.
> That's what I'm saying.


I will second that...



:No-Sad


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 8, 2011)

Agreed, sadly. I'll use some of the things they want to see as long as they don't harm my horse (driving short-term without breeching, using a loose check, wearing a loose martingale) because I enter to win and don't appreciate throwing my money away needlessly, but I'll be dam*ed if I'm going to make my horse unhappy. There IS a middle ground!

We need to educate our judges and our fellow exhibitors and always, always put the horse first.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Feb 8, 2011)

REO said:


> Maybe it hasn't happened to everyone, but I _have_ heard about judges not placing horses because they didn't have a martingale. Because they thought that all else did, that the one not using one was not properly harnessed.
> 
> _Some_ judges don't know their ____ from their elbows.


That's the chance you take when you hire judges that don't really drive. They might know a lot about Western Pleasure, Hunt Seat, Halter, Showmanship, but driving is really it's own game. A few years ago we FINALLY got the state 4-H horse show to hire a driving judge for the driving classes and then amazingly the quality of driving went up, and the safety issues went down. We had one judge that, after reading the rule book, made a bare-shouldered kid stop and either get something to cover her shoulders or leave the arena. Apparently, the kid didn't read the rule book. Her mother gave her a jacket. THAT is the kind of judge we want in the ring!





If you really want a quality opinion about driving horses, go to a driving show.





Myrna


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## REO (Feb 9, 2011)

Yes, I know Myrna





But if they're going to be judges for THAT breed, (AMHA - AMHR) they should read and adhere to the rules of THAT breed, not other breeds or disiplines. Judge by the standards of the breed you are judging THAT DAY. Just my thoughts on the subject! LOL

*skips off into my little fantacy world*


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## RhineStone (Feb 9, 2011)

REO said:


> But if they're going to be judges for THAT breed, (AMHA - AMHR) they should read and adhere to the rules of THAT breed, not other breeds or disiplines. Judge by the standards of the breed you are judging THAT DAY.


Absolutely agree, but if they have never drove, they can read the rule book and not even understand what that 'language" is. A trace? A tug? A blinker? I know there are judges on the mini breed judge lists who are also ADS judges.

Or at the very least, judges should go take a driving lesson or two if they are going to judge it. Why would a competitor subject themselves to "uneducated criticism"? That is a waste of $$. I can go in a local parade to do that, and have the little kid sitting on the curb who says, "Oh, I like the yellow pony and the purple cart..."

But if you have a "non-driving" judge who happens to be judging the driving classes and sees "so-and-so big name" driving a certain way, the judge can assume that they "must know what they are doing" and "that must be how it is done".





I bet if there was a driving judge who saw slack traces, something would be said to that competitor, even if they had the best moving horse in the class. (At least I hope they would...) I did that once to a kid. While I was waiting for the class to enter the arena, I saw this kid outside the ring just railing on her mother. When she got into line up in the class, I quietly told her something like, "I can't mark you for it in this class, and it doesn't affect your placing, but I saw you yelling at your mother and I think you should be conducting yourself better." The look on her face was classic. It was something like, "You saw that? Oops." After that, the kid was much better and by the end of the day was much more pleasant. The next class she was in I mentioned something about her improved attitude and how it made her riding better.

It's amazing what kind of influence that person with the hat in center ring has.

Myrna


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## REO (Feb 9, 2011)

Oh yes indeedy!






I don't know for sure, but I kind of thought that's what all those required judges clinics were for. To learn about each item in the rule books, the differences in driving etc and all of that.


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## stormy (Feb 9, 2011)

There's a bit more to this then just flapping traces. Breast collars have gotten so thin to be pretty instead of usable they must cut when much pressure is put on them...plainly put show diving harness is certainly not made for the comfort of the horse or to improve performance, it is made to look esthetically nice! One very popular harness does not have any "tree" at all to allow relief on the spine of the horse and by design looks to be made to force the horse to hollow its back!

(But then I don't drive around the farm in evening dress either



) What we won't do for those little pieces of colored ribbon!


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## Candi (Feb 9, 2011)

REO said:


> Yes, I know Myrna
> 
> 
> 
> ...


100% agreement! As a judge that does a lot of Open Shows... I always "brush up" if a class/breed is added to the premium that I haven't judged in a while. As a judge I feel ignorance is unforgivable!


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## targetsmom (Feb 9, 2011)

Sorry to be jumping in late on this great thread, but I so agree! I show mostly Pinto, which often has AMHA and/or AMHR-carded judges. I use breeching, a side check and no martingale (I also show a bit at ADS pleasure driving shows). At our last Pinto show, we happened to be speaking with the four AMHA carded judges after the show and they all RAVED about Princess. They thought she was the ideal "Classic Pleasure Driving" mini. This was quite a shock since we didn't place that well, but their comment was that I needed to let her "go" more. Sometimes a few minutes with the judges can really open your eyes.

This also reminds me of when I was showing my big pinto in showmanship. A trainer (who showed Ammy at the time) told me I HAD to shave the inside of my horse's ears - even though the rule book said it was optional. Well, guess what, I BEAT her in Showmanship under one judge at the show that very weekend! I probably spent more time than she did trimming the hair on Target's ears so that it looked neat, but still protected his ears.

Oh, yeah, and I will be the one wearing a helmet in all my driving classes.


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## RhineStone (Feb 9, 2011)

It occurred to me a couple of days ago that we carriage drivers have also changed the harness to allow the horses more freedom in front end movement. It's called a Freedom or Empathy or V breastcollar.



They sure aren't "thin", but they do allow the shoulder to open up more than a straight breastcollar on some horses. And they are still considered "ergonomic" and comfortable for the horse....

Myrna


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## Poodlepill (Feb 9, 2011)

I would love to see some pictures


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## RhineStone (Feb 11, 2011)

Poodlepill said:


> I would love to see some pictures


Go to the AMHA website on this page http://www.amha.org/show/2010/WorldChampShowPhoto.htm and look at the Single Pleasure Driving horses in action. You will see the slack traces. Now some of the slack is because the photos are always taken when the outside leg is forward, and therefore the near trace has less tension on it, but the left photo shows a good example of extreme unnecessary slack.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 12, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Go to the AMHA website on this page http://www.amha.org/show/2010/WorldChampShowPhoto.htm and look at the Single Pleasure Driving horses in action. You will see the slack traces. Now some of the slack is because the photos are always taken when the outside leg is forward, and therefore the near trace has less tension on it, but the left photo shows a good example of extreme unnecessary slack.
> Myrna


To be fair, the cart has also slipped forward in the tugs on the lefthand horse, leaving the traces even looser than they were intended to be.

Leia


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