# Obamas plan



## littlesteppers (Oct 7, 2008)

Looks cool..the less you work ..the more you get..gonna tell hubby we gonna

have us a good time!

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#trade


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I thought counterfeiting was illegal. Just where else is he going to get all this money.


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## Pepipony (Oct 7, 2008)

littlesteppers said:


> Looks cool..the less you work ..the more you get..gonna tell hubby we gonna have us a good time!
> 
> http://www.barackobama.com/issues/economy/#trade




Where does it say that? Are you meaning the less you actually work or the less money you make?


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## littlesteppers (Oct 7, 2008)

Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama and Biden will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama and Biden will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama-Biden proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~





this guy really believes all americans are STUPID..how is this creating jobs?? Sign and return..we tell you what you get..the end..


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## tagalong (Oct 7, 2008)

> this guy really believes all americans are STUPID..how is this creating jobs?? Sign and return..we tell you what you get..the end..


????

I must have missed something - this seems to be about simplifying the tax filing process - not "creating jobs"....


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## garyo (Oct 7, 2008)

littlesteppers said:


> Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama and Biden will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama and Biden will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama-Biden proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> 
> 
> 
> ...




I'm not sure how you are tying job creation to Obamas ideas on simplifing tax returns. His idea sounds like a good one to me. Do you really think that individuals tell the IRS what they owe or the amount of the refund now? Make a mistake on your taxes and you will find out that they(IRS) certainly do tell you what you owe.

Gary


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## Laura (Oct 7, 2008)

garyo said:


> littlesteppers said:
> 
> 
> > Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama and Biden will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama and Biden will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama-Biden proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ...


No joke! If you have no deductions or itemization and one, reported source of income, your taxes SHOULD only take you a few minutes...not like it is now


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## Cathy_H (Oct 8, 2008)

> I'm not sure how you are tying job creation to Obamas ideas on simplifing tax returns


................
Actually there will most likely be a LOSS of more jobs if Obama is elected. The taxes that Obama want to put on small businesses is going to do a lot of these small businesses in................ Those of you who are for Obama how many of you are currently employed by a small business? Are you willing to lose your job just to get your man in office?


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## CKC (Oct 8, 2008)

For businesses that make over $250,000. Do most small businesses make over $250k? Not starting something here... it's just a question.

---------------------------

Posted Yesterday, 07:41 PM

"Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I thought counterfeiting was illegal. Just where else is he going to get all this money"

Probably the same place George Bush did.


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## Basketmiss (Oct 8, 2008)

Right on Cathy H!!-

Yes there are alot of small businesses who have a couple employees who DO make over $250,000! So is it worth it for them to lose their jobs to get him in??

NO!!

Did you notice the smirk on his face when McCain was talking, it got old to see. McCain was also writing things down, not being so cocky as I saw Obama-IMO


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## Cathy_H (Oct 8, 2008)

> For businesses that make over $250,000. Do most small businesses make over $250k? Not starting something here... it's just a question


.......................... I'm sure some of them do. I heard someone say that there were 300 thousand small businesses started (even in this economy ) ....... Some of them will be short lived if Obama is elected ......... I think that is the number that I heard - ( I will have to research to make sure )............................................. Obama keeps saying we've got to help out the medium income people. Won't a lot of these small businesses be middle income? Is he or ain't he?




> Did you notice the smirk on his face when McCain was talking, it got old to see. McCain was also writing things down, not being so cocky as I saw Obama


............ Obama was performing as a politician - as that is what he is - you can't change your habits & looks overnight - so expect more of the same if he gets in the White House. And according to Obama he is since he used the phrase, "during my first term in the White House".


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## Bassett (Oct 8, 2008)

> Posted Yesterday, 07:41 PM "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm I thought counterfeiting was illegal. Just where else is he going to get all this money"
> 
> Probably the same place George Bush did.



Which will put us in even deeper. Is that what you want?


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

I was rather impressed that Obama was going mostly 'off the cuff', whereas McCain seemed to be consulting his cards and writing down a lot of notes. People criticize when he uses a teleprompter, people criticize when he uses nothing.





From everything I'm reading, it's hard to find an 'average' amount for a small business owner to make. I've seen several people saying that $50,000-$60,000 is not uncommon in a new businesses first and second year. I found another saying a survey done in 2005 showed most small businesses making around $200,000.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

On the debate..I was NOT impressed by either canditate..had some will power..But fell asleep during the debate



..it seemslike the republicans have a democrate running now..(baling out mortgages) ..






I believe that Obama will win..and we going to be in a load of trouble..

As for income on businesses..is this NET income or is it overhead..think we would need some more info on this..

Can the republicans switch canditates..maybe









we keep Palin so..just for Mary LOU!


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## Pepipony (Oct 8, 2008)

garyo said:


> littlesteppers said:
> 
> 
> > Simplify Tax Filings for Middle Class Americans: Obama and Biden will dramatically simplify tax filings so that millions of Americans will be able to do their taxes in less than five minutes. Obama and Biden will ensure that the IRS uses the information it already gets from banks and employers to give taxpayers the option of pre-filled tax forms to verify, sign and return. Experts estimate that the Obama-Biden proposal will save Americans up to 200 million total hours of work and aggravation and up to $2 billion in tax preparer fees. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
> ...



Oh yes, and if the error is in the taxpayers favor, does the IRS step in and give a refund? We all know the answer to that one.

7 years ago my $175 an hour CPA messed up our taxes. That was starting 7 years ago. It took the IRS 3 years to catch it. We owed all the penalties etc because our CPA denied any wrongdoing. So who made out? The CPA and the IRS. Period. I am all for making it easier to get any tax documents in under my own steam.


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## tagalong (Oct 8, 2008)

> Did you notice the smirk on his face when McCain was talking, it got old to see. McCain was also writing things down, not being so cocky as I saw Obama-IMO


Smirk? I saw That One watching and listening to the other candidate speak... and paying attention. I saw The Other One consulting notes and cards... and not giving his opponent any notice as he spoke.

I saw no "cockiness". From anyone.

I was puzzled as to why the McCains did not stick around to visit with the crowd as politicians are wont to do... you should never pass up an opportunity to do some PR and greet people.

All that being said - the debate was a snoozer... and I am still trying to figure out why it is so



if filing taxes is made easier - and how that equates to creating jobs or thinking Americans are stupid...

_*puzzled*_


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

Something else I found curious. McCain's spent the last week or so saying he's really going to ramp up the attacks on Obama-and at least in his ads and print, he has been. Palin's been giving him the 3rd degree, too.

However, we saw very little of that last night from McCain. Why? I don't think it was the format. Although they weren't really given time for rebuttals, either candidate could have used an answer to attack the other.


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## Bassett (Oct 8, 2008)

> I was puzzled as to why the McCains did not stick around to visit with the crowd as politicians are wont to do... you should never pass up an opportunity to do some PR and greet people


This is a really wierd remark as I saw them going around shaking peoples hands and talking to them. And I watched the whole thing.

I really will hate to see Michelle Obama as 1st lady. That woman has absolutely NO personality at all. For some reason I just can not warm up to her. She just doesn't have what it takes to be in the public eye. jmho


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

I thought candidate's families were off limits?

I like Michelle Obama, personally, and I love seeing the relationship that she and Barack have. They seem so genuinely into each other.


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## tagalong (Oct 8, 2008)

*Bassett* - I watched the whole thing as well... _*puzzled again*_ ... and they did not stick around. Letting the focus thus be on the Obamas seemed like a bad plan...

Even one of the staunch McCain supporter guys on the radio this a.m. expressed his disappointment about that.


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## anita (Oct 8, 2008)

Watch this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QcpdUtxNQ


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

anita said:


> Watch this
> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S8QcpdUtxNQ


Thanks anita..I did watch this before.Scary ..huh??.did you hear now the guy that wrote the Obama book (obama Nation)..got thrown out of Kenya..???

http://www.nation.co.ke/News/-/1056/478260/-/tkxwov/-/


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## anita (Oct 8, 2008)

Yes, I did. He brings more news back on Monday

Did you watch Kenya TV channel on youtube?


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## Sonya (Oct 8, 2008)

> The Republicans are totally upset that McCain abandoned Michigan.


Living in Michigan (Registered Republican) , I am not upset...he should not waste his time here...totally democratic state. His time would be much more usefull in other states.


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## C G Minis (Oct 8, 2008)

We are one of those small business that makes over 250,000 a year.My husband has a automotive shop with 2 employees. Do you want to know how much of that 250,000 we see? May be 40,000 a year. That is what we take so we are FAR from rich OK. I work also to make ends meet. I am afraid now we will have to let our employees go if Obama wins. To try to pay even more taxes and then having to pay for health care or be fined is too much for our business to bear. May be even have to close. I guess our little business is going to be just one of many that will go down the tubes. Thanks Obama.....


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

anita said:


> Yes, I did. He brings more news back on Monday
> Did you watch Kenya TV channel on youtube?


From what I heard..No documentation..he will bring back emails between Odinga and Obama?? I understand they where as recently as september 2008?? did you hear this too??


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 8, 2008)

I found it ironic that this was done by the son of a politician.

THE son of a prominent Democratic state politician has been charged over the hacking of Sarah Palin's private emails and could be jailed for five years if convicted.

David Kernell, the son of Tennessee Democrat Mike Kernell - chairman of the state's Government Operations Committee - has pleaded not guilty to the charges. His father has said he had nothing to do with the hacking

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,24469...5012572,00.html


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## Bassett (Oct 8, 2008)

Thanks Anita, I just can't understand how people can not see through him. Just doesn't make sense to me. They can see it on something like this with him there actually at the rally and still not believe it.





Probably think he has a twin doing the evils that are reported. Oh no couldn't be Obama.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

Did anybody look at the video in my signature?? It shows what Obama acomplished when he was a community orginizer


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## SweetOpal (Oct 8, 2008)

C G Minis said:


> We are one of those small business that makes over 250,000 a year.My husband has a automotive shop with 2 employees. Do you want to know how much of that 250,000 we see? May be 40,000 a year. That is what we take so we are FAR from rich OK. I work also to make ends meet. I am afraid now we will have to let our employees go if Obama wins. To try to pay even more taxes and then having to pay for health care or be fined is too much for our business to bear. May be even have to close. I guess our little business is going to be just one of many that will go down the tubes. Thanks Obama.....



I completely agree, I was not aware of this until the debate as I am not an Obama supporter, but we would be in the same boat, the 4 people that work for our small business will be jobless if this is the case.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

Bassett said:


> Thanks Anita, I just can't understand how people can not see through him. Just doesn't make sense to me. They can see it on something like this with him there actually at the rally and still not believe it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


It seems to me the perfect storm is brewing..his friends are sure popping up all over the place..

I think these people are all obamanated


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

SweetOpal said:


> C G Minis said:
> 
> 
> > We are one of those small business that makes over 250,000 a year.My husband has a automotive shop with 2 employees. Do you want to know how much of that 250,000 we see? May be 40,000 a year. That is what we take so we are FAR from rich OK. I work also to make ends meet. I am afraid now we will have to let our employees go if Obama wins. To try to pay even more taxes and then having to pay for health care or be fined is too much for our business to bear. May be even have to close. I guess our little business is going to be just one of many that will go down the tubes. Thanks Obama.....
> ...


YUP..we are too..


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## Bassett (Oct 8, 2008)

littlesteppers said:


> Did anybody look at the video in my signature?? It shows what Obama acomplished when he was a community orginizer


I just did and several others.



Thanks Hon.


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## Pepipony (Oct 8, 2008)

So exactly how much $$$ will those of you that have $250k+ small businesses, be out if Obama gets in?

Edited to add.... from Obamas pages as on first post

Families making more than $250,000 will pay either the same or lower tax rates than they paid in the 1990s. Obama will ask the wealthiest 2% of families to give back a portion of the tax cuts they have received over the past eight years to ensure we are restoring fairness and returning to fiscal responsibility. But no family will pay higher tax rates than they would have paid in the 1990s. In fact, dividend rates would be 39 percent lower than what President Bush proposed in his 2001 tax cut.

I looked this up. So now I ask again, exactly how will those of you that have $250k+ small businesses, be out if Obama gets in? This was under the family making more than $250k. I cannot find the small business plan. But one would assume that if you make more than $250k for the business, but bring in less than that per family, this above would be your plan?


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

The tax on the business is on the GROSS income not the NET income.

If you work on a 20% profit margin and your gross is $250K, your net is $50K.

Obama wants you to make less than $50K. He will tax you until you DO make less than $50K.

The result is: You won't only be paying the business tax on the initial $250K gross, but you will ALSO be paying your personal income tax on the $50K you were able to keep for yourself. (You can still get more money when you pass the cost of the tax increase on to the consumer of your product. The end user always pays all the taxes on a business anyway.)

Considering the work involved in operating a business, why bother running your own business,

ESPECIALLY considering you will have to pay 100% of your own Social Security tax which is DOUBLE what an employee of a corporation pays, since the corporation pays the other 50%.

Any why would you hire ANYONE? You then get stuck with paying for their health insurance, half of their S.S., etc.

Just quit and get a Government job. Let everyone else pay your salary and you can't get fired for screwing around.


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## BlueMoonEmbroidery (Oct 8, 2008)

Your business makes 40,000 not 250,000. Taxable income is income minus expenses. As a small business you will also NOT be fined for not providing insurance.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200810080009

Chicago Tribune uncritically reported false McCain claim that Obama "will fine" small business owners who don't insure employees

Summary: The Chicago Tribune uncritically reported Sen. John McCain's false assertion during the second presidential debate that Sen. Barack Obama "will fine" small business owners who don't insure employees. In fact, Obama's health care plan states that small businesses are "exempt" from its requirement that "[l]arge employers" either "offer meaningful coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees" or "contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan."

In an October 7 Chicago Tribune article about the second presidential debate, correspondents John McCormick and Jill Zuckman uncritically reported Sen. John McCain's false claim that "If you're a small-business person and you don't insure your employees, Sen. [barack] Obama will fine you." In fact, Obama's health care plan explicitly states that small businesses are "exempt" from its requirement that "[l]arge employers" either "offer meaningful coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees" or "contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan." Indeed, in response to McCain's assertion, Obama said, "Small businesses are not going to have a mandate. What we're going to give you is a 50 percent tax credit to help provide health care for those that you need" -- a comment McCormick and Zuckman did not report.

In contrast with the Tribune, in an October 7 post on its blog The Caucus, The New York Times reported:

"If you're a small businessperson and you don't insure your employees, Senator Obama will fine you," Mr. McCain said. "He'll fine you. That's remarkable. If you're a parent and you're struggling to get health insurance for your children, Senator Obama will fine you."

Mr. Obama would, in fact, require medium and large employers to either provide coverage to their workers or pay a tax into a fund that would help subsidize coverage for low-income people. But his plan specifically exempts small businesses from the requirement. In fact, Mr. Obama proposes to offer a substantial tax credit to small businesses to encourage them to provide insurance.

Indeed, Obama's health care plan reads:

(3) TAX CREDITS FOR FAMILIES AND SMALL BUSINESSES. Barack Obama and Joe Biden understand that too many families that do not qualify for public health programs like Medicaid and SCHIP have trouble finding affordable health insurance. They know from talking to small business owners across the nation that the skyrocketing cost of healthcare poses a serious competitive threat to America's small businesses. The Obama-Biden health care plan will provide tax credits to all individuals who need it for their premiums. They will also create a new Small Business Health Tax Credit to provide small businesses with a refundable tax credit of up to 50 percent on premiums paid by small businesses on behalf of their employees. To be eligible for the credit, small businesses will have to offer a quality health plan to all of their employees and cover a meaningful share of the cost of employee health premiums.

(4) EMPLOYER CONTRIBUTION. Large employers that do not offer meaningful coverage or make a meaningful contribution to the cost of quality health coverage for their employees will be required to contribute a percentage of payroll toward the costs of the national plan. Small businesses will be exempt from this requirement.

From the Tribune article:

McCain also charged that Obama's first instinct is more government.

"As you notice, he starts talking about government. He starts saying, government will do this and government will do that, and then government will, and he'll impose mandates," McCain said. "If you're a small-business person and you don't insure your employees, Sen. Obama will fine you. ... If you're a parent and you're struggling to get health insurance for your children, Sen. Obama will fine you."

And Obama painted McCain as just a captive of Washington as he criticized his energy proposals.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

I gotto add our small business is trucking..soo we being screwed double..since we are hit with higher taxes..PLUS higher fuel cost..NOBAMA!!


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## garyo (Oct 8, 2008)

Wow, I guess i need to take business lessons from some of you.

I also own a successful small business with, until recently, six employees and after 22 years I have NEVER netted $250,000 per year. There is a HUGH difference between GROSS and NET income, I really don't believe some of you realize that or don't understand Obabma's tax plan, or care to.

One cannot actually discuss the tax ramifications of any small business, or otherwise, without knowing whether the business is a sole proprietorship, LLC, S-corp. or C-corp. which are all taxed differently.

Wouldn't a flat tax system be so much easier? But thats a discussion for another day.

Gary


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

The Obama campaign maintains that the number of small-business owners is what’s important. Economists know what matters is the tax rate that’s applied to the bulk of small-business income. Make no mistake about it: Obama’s plan to raise taxes on households making more than $250,000 will raise taxes on most small-business profits in America.

What type of tax rate are we talking about? Currently, S corporations face a top tax rate of 35 percent, while sole proprietors and general partners face a tax rate of 37.9 percent (since they’re responsible for paying both income tax and the Medicare component of the payroll tax).

Under Obama’s plan to let the scheduled 2011 tax rate hikes occur, and his plan to raise the self-employment tax on those making more than $250,000, the S corporation rate would rise from 35 percent to 39.6 percent. The sole proprietor and partner rate would rise from 37.9 percent all the way up to a staggering 50.3 percent. Many Democrats in Congress have proposed making all small businesses (including S corporations) pay this 50-plus percent rate

If you care to read the whole thing..

http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0708/11670.html


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## BlueMoonEmbroidery (Oct 8, 2008)

McCain's Small-Business Bunk

July 14, 2008

He claims 23 million small-business owners would pay higher tax rates under Obama. He's wrong. The vast majority would see no change, and many would get a cut.

http://www.factcheck.org/elections-2008/mc...iness_bunk.html


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

Well I gotto agree with John McCain..just check all the voting records..it will tell you..its not as easy as checking websites..But this is the only way to show the TRUE intentions of a person..

http://www.votesmart.org/


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## tagalong (Oct 9, 2008)

*Blue Moon* - thanks for bringing all that info into the thread... I was about to as I read this thread and saw people getting concerned about things that were not necessarily true...

People, please - CHECK. THE. FACTS.

_Please._

Some of you may be getting upset for no reason - but then - that is the intent behind such things...






Do not just believe what commercials or blogs tell you.



> I also own a successful small business with, until recently, six employees and after 22 years I have NEVER netted $250,000 per year. There is a HUGH difference between GROSS and NET income, I really don't believe some of you realize that or don't understand Obabma's tax plan, or care to.
> One cannot actually discuss the tax ramifications of any small business, or otherwise, without knowing whether the business is a sole proprietorship, LLC, S-corp. or C-corp. which are all taxed differently.


Thank you, *garyo*... for being a voice of reason.

*littlesteppers* - when you are quoting an article could you please put it in quotes? That way it is easier to note that those are not your words and an excerpt from the article you have linked to... thanks!


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## minimule (Oct 9, 2008)

tagalong said:


> I was puzzled as to why the McCains did not stick around to visit with the crowd as politicians are wont to do... you should never pass up an opportunity to do some PR and greet people.
> _*puzzled*_



The reason you didn't see him shaking hands with people was because the biased NBC cameras, all 4 of them, stayed on Obama and never showed McCain. You could see McCain's feet occasionally.


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## tagalong (Oct 9, 2008)

How were they NBC only cameras when it was not an NBC-only telecast? It was a multi-network feed.

Anyway - I found a mention here....



> After their second debate, both Barack Obama and John McCain shook hands with the Nashville audience of 80 uncommitted voters. Both were well-received.


... and so on. So they both stayed for a meet & greet - which makes a lot more sense than leaving....


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## susanne (Oct 9, 2008)

McCain didn't stick around any longer on Fox than he did on NBC, CBS, ABC, etc.

So I guess Fox is part of the liberal bias?


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## anita (Oct 9, 2008)

Fox showed McCains ( both) shaking hands with the audience. I watched too

Obama plan is to rise house tax 45%. When you pay now $ 2000 you pay $ 2900 then. Can you afford to own a house?

Remember Barney Frank said: All home owner are our tenents then


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## BlueMoonEmbroidery (Oct 9, 2008)

Obama plan is to rise house tax 45%. When you pay now $ 2000 you pay $ 2900 then. Can you afford to own a house?

Remember Barney Frank said: All home owner are our tenents then

I would love to know where you heard this. Do you mean property taxes? If so here in Wisconsin the

federal gov't has nothing to do with your property taxes. I don't know about other states but I would

assume the same is true. Here is what a dane county tax bill looks like. No money going to Federal.

DANE COUNTY $

LOCAL $

MADISON METRO SEWER DIST $

MADISON TECH COLLEGE $

SCHOOL DIST $

STATE OF WISCONSIN $


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 9, 2008)

Anita-is this what you're talking about?

"Estate Tax: The estate tax would be effectively repealed for 99.7% of estates. For the remaining 0.3% of estates over $7million per couple, Obama will retain a rate of 45%. This policy would cut the number of estates covered by the tax by 84% relevant to 2000."

Note it says retain. The estate tax, from what I can find, currently sits at 45%, and it's 45% for estates totaling as little as $2 mil, it seems.


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## Pepipony (Oct 9, 2008)

So what I have learned from reading here is that these Republicans that are SO against Obama, havent a real clue what they are talking about. They are so married to their party and so against a Democrat, that they actually forget to read facts and just peat and repeat anything negative they hear about him. Forget the facts Ma'am, my hatred is just! OY!!!!


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## littlesteppers (Oct 9, 2008)

Thure ya go..Now we don't have a clue...right...


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## Pepipony (Oct 9, 2008)

Well, so far, its been rhetoric spoken by 'you'. I will loose this, I will loose that, he will do this, he will do that. Then most of the time it bears out that 'you' were wrong in what you stated. Thus, no clue. Or the clue that 'you' have , is one given to you by someone who really hasnt a clue. But, since its in text in must be true.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 9, 2008)

Pepipony said:


> Well, so far, its been rhetoric spoken by 'you'. I will loose this, I will loose that, he will do this, he will do that. Then most of the time it bears out that 'you' were wrong in what you stated. Thus, no clue. Or the clue that 'you' have , is one given to you by someone who really hasnt a clue. But, since its in text in must be true.


So let me get this right..because I do NOT agree with YOU..I have NO clue??


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## sdmini (Oct 10, 2008)

The really sad thing for both sides is I would wager 1/2 the people polled after coming out of the voting booth could not tell you either party's platform let alone their own candidates.



We have reduced our desire for information to the equivalent of fast food and super market tabloids.

I love (ok hate) the ad Obama is running right now talking about how John McCain wants to cut taxes for corporations and how Obama has 3X the tax breaks for the "regular" man in his platform. That dang McCain...oh wait the US has a higher corporate tax than ANY other nation, part of the reason they leave the US is to get away from our taxation. Perhaps giving a tax break will give incentives for those companies to bring those jobs back to the US.

Obama wants to make it so 10 million Americans will not have to pay taxes. EXCUSE ME!!



On one side of your mouth your talking about spending, spending, spending on these social programs and cutting, cutting, cutting taxes, somebody has to pay for something.

The one thing I learned going through Obama's campaign is how he really isn't about change. He's about using other people's ideas, slapping his name on it and saying, "What a good boy am I".

In 2007 Sen. Chris Dodd presented a bill to put money aside to rebuild our roads and bridges. You all remember why we need to start looking at our infrastructure right? The horrible bridge collapse in MN that had Congress sending out a group of engineers to rate our infrastructure. We got a D with a price tag of $1.5 Trillion (yes that is a T) to fix. Obama would not support it, but look it's on HIS platform now. (Admittedly Obama's is quite a bit smaller but who uses roads anyways?)

Obama's big idea is giving out tax refunds to individuals making under a certain percentage. That's the exact way EITC (forgive me I lost my "notes) works which is already part of the tax code. The only difference is that his is bigger, but oh well you are going to spend that windfall on car maintenance because the road is falling apart.

One of his "will not cut it" platforms is that he wants to get broadband to every city in the union. Yep, that's what I need high speed internet that I can't pay for because I'm broke.

He wants to jumpstart the economy by spending ANOTHER $50 Billion plus another $1,000 for every American for an energy refund. Guess when you are so far in the hole what do you have to do but throw money in after it?

He talks about how he passed a bill that rewarded "Patriotic" companies. He rewarded them with a 1% tax back refund, which wouldn't even offset the cost of conforming to the "patriotic" guidelines.

He has some really good ideas, simplifying taxes, eliminating taxes for seniors under a certain $$ a year, investing Green companies. He also has some fine ideals, "standing firm" for fair trade. Amend the North American Trade agreement and others that sound great. Going to Paris, Rome, Sicily and Portugal all sound great to.....would like to hear the plausible ideas on how to accomplish it before I sign the blank check though.

I know these things because I spent lots of late nights going through Obama's platform and then searching each idea out on the net. I looked for articles that were both for and against. After you throw out the fluffy, sugary dumbdown garbage and the paranoid rhetoric you are left with a basic understanding of the issue, be if from two different sides.

I really don't want to change anyone's mind on who to vote for, that's not my place. If I challenged even one person to look past the silly how many cars, houses, crowds control and soccer mom garbage that seems to pass as valid information these days and look at the platforms of their candidate and find out what it will mean for them, even if they still are voting the same way, I'm happy.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 10, 2008)

_I would wager 1/2 the people polled after coming out of the voting booth could not tell you either party's platform let alone their own candidates. _

You know, I've seen the opposite. This election seems to have people charged on both sides. A lot of people I've talked to on both sides are very aware of their candidate's positions-moreso than in previous years.

_Obama wants to make it so 10 million Americans will not have to pay taxes._

Where did you hear this?


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## sdmini (Oct 10, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> _Obama wants to make it so 10 million Americans will not have to pay taxes._Where did you hear this?


You have to look hard, it's buried under tons of political jargon...no wait it's right on Obama's website. It's one of the first things he talks about, it's part of his platform!





_The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans. _


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## littlesteppers (Oct 10, 2008)

Well you have read his plan..now read the "cost" plan..I have to tell you I took it off the GOP website..but just because I was too lazy to add it all up..in a nutshell its 1.2 TRILLION dollars..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

If Sen. Barack Obama (D-IL) Could Enact All Of His Campaign Proposals, Taxpayers Would Be Faced With Financing $1.238 Trillion In New Spending Over One White House Term:

Obama's Energy Plan Will Cost $150 Billion Over 10 Years, Equal To $15 Billion Annually And $60 Billion Over Four Years. "Obama will invest $150 billion over 10 years to advance the next generation of biofuels and fuel infrastructure, accelerate the commercialization of plug-in hybrids, promote development of commercial-scale renewable energy, invest in low-emissions coal plants, and begin the transition to a new digital electricity grid." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 1/14/08, p. 25)

Obama's National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank Will Cost $60 Billion Over Ten Years; Equal To $6 Billion A Year And $24 Billion Over Four Years. Obama: "I'm proposing a National Infrastructure Reinvestment Bank that will invest $60 billion over ten years." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks On Economic Policy, Janesville, WI, 2/13/08)

Obama's Early Education And K-12 Package Will Cost $18 Billion A Year; Equal To $72 Billion Over Four Years. "Barack Obama's early education and K-12 plan package costs about $18 billion per year." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama's Plan For Lifetime Success Through Education," www.barackobama.com, 11/20/07)

Obama's Home Foreclosure Prevention Fund Will Cost $10 Billion. Obama: "I've put forward a $10 billion home foreclosure prevention fund. We're going to help families who have been hoodwinked by deceptive practices and predatory loans so that they can work out the terms, stay in their home, keep paying their mortgage." (CNN's "CNN Newsroom," 3/2/08)

Obama's National Service Plan Will Cost $3.5 Billion A Year; Equal To $14 Billion Over Four Years. "Barack Obama's national service plan will cost about $3.5 billion per year when it is fully implemented." (Obama For America, "Helping All Americans Serve Their Country: Barack Obama's Plan For Universal Voluntary Citizen Service," www.barackobama.com, 12/5/07)

Obama's Health Care Plan Will Cost $150 Billion; Equal To $600 Billion Over Four Years. CBS' Steve Kroft: "The most expensive part of the Obama program is the health insurance plan, which would make coverage for children mandatory, and promises affordable government subsidized insurance to all Americans, with premiums based on a percentage of their income. How much is it going to cost? $150 billion it's going to cost, right?" Obama: "It is." (CBS' "60 Minutes," 9/21/08)

Obama Will Increase Foreign Assistance Funding By $25 Billion. "Obama will embrace the Millennium Development Goal of cutting extreme poverty around the world in half by 2015, and he will double our foreign assistance to $50 billion to achieve that goal." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 1/14/08, p. 53)

Obama Will Provide $2 Billion To Aid Iraqi Refugees. "He will provide at least $2 billion to expand services to Iraqi refugees in neighboring countries, and ensure that Iraqis inside their own country can find a safe-haven." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 1/14/08, p. 51)

Obama Will Provide $1.5 Billion To Help States Adopt Paid-Leave Systems. "As president, Obama will initiate a strategy to encourage all 50 states to adopt paid-leave systems. Obama will provide a $1.5 billion fund to assist states with start-up costs and to help states offset the costs for employees and employers." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 1/14/08, p. 15)

Obama Will Provide $1 Billion Over 5 Years For Transitional Jobs And Career Pathway Programs, Equal To $200 Million A Year And $800 Million Over Four Years. "Obama will invest $1 billion over five years in transitional jobs and career pathway programs that implement proven methods of helping low-income Americans succeed in the workforce." (Obama For America, "The Blueprint For Change," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 1/14/08, p. 42)

Obama Would Close The "Doughnut Hole" In The Medicare Part D Prescription Drug Program. "Barack Obama wants to close the 'doughnut hole' in the Medicare Part D Prescription Drug Program ..." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: Helping America's Seniors," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/3/08)

Based On Estimates From The Congressional Budget Office, Closing The "Doughnut Hole" Would Cost Approximately $39.18 Billion In The First Fiscal Year Of Obama's Administration; Equal To $156.72 Billion Over Four Years. The Congressional Budget Office estimated the cost of eliminating the 'doughnut hole' in Medicare's Drug Benefit design at $39.18 billion for FY 2010. (Congressional Budget Office, "Budget Options," www.cbo.gov, 2/05, p. 204)

"Closing It Would Roughly Double The Cost Of The Medicare Prescription Drug Program, However, And Obama Offers No Way To Pay For It." (Andrew Taylor, "Expensive Campaign Promises Would Face Deficit Reality Check," The Associated Press, 2/24/08)

Obama Would Repeal The Social Security Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP) And Government Pension Offset (GPO). "Protect the Social Security Benefits of Public Employees and their Families: Barack Obama cosponsored the Social Security Fairness Act, which would repeal the Windfall Elimination Provision and the Government Pension Offset. ... Barack Obama believes that we have a responsibility to take care of workers who have devoted their lives to public service and that we shouldn't be discouraging our young people from working in these essential jobs." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: Helping America's Seniors," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/3/08)

Eliminating The WEP Would Cost $32.7 Billion Over 10 Years; Equal To $3.27 Billion A Year And $13.08 Billion Over Four Years. "The Congressional Budget Office has estimated that full repeal of the WEP would cost approximately $32.7 billion between 2006 and 2015. According to the Office of the Actuary of the SSA, elimination of the WEP would cost 0.06% of taxable payroll (causing an increase in Social Security's long-range deficit of about 3%)." (Laura Haltzel, "Social Security: The Windfall Elimination Provision (WEP)," Congressional Research Service, 3/8/07, p. 4)

Eliminating The GPO Would Cost $38.1 Billion Over 10 Years; Equal To $3.81 Billion A Year And $15.24 Billion Over Four Years. "According to estimates provided by CBO and the Social Security actuaries, elimination of the GPO would cost $38.1 billion over 10 years, and in the long run would cost 0.06% of taxable payroll, which would increase Social Security's long-range deficit by about 3%." (Laura Haltzel, "Social Security: The Government Pension Offset (GPO)," Congressional Research Service, 3/9/07, p. 14)

Obama Would Implement The Lugar-Obama Legislation To Crack Down On The Smuggling Of Weapons Of Mass Destruction. "[Obama] also will fully implement the Lugar-Obama legislation to help our allies detect and stop the smuggling of weapons of mass destruction throughout the world." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: The War We Need To Win," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/3/08)

According To The Congressional Budget Office, Implementing The Lugar-Obama Legislation (S. 2566) Would Cost $2.2 Billion Over Five Years, Which Averages Out To $440 Million Per Year And $1.76 Billion Over Four Years. "CBO estimates that implementing S. 2566 would cost ... more than $2.2 billion over the 2007-2011 period, assuming appropriation of the necessary amounts." (Congressional Budget Office, "S. 2566: Cooperative Proliferation Detection, Interdiction Assistance, And Conventional Threat Reduction Act Of 2006," www.cbo.gov, 5/31/06)

Obama Has Proposed Creating "A National Network Of Public-Private Business Incubators" At A Cost Of $250 Million Per Year; Equal To $1 Billion Over Four Years. "Barack Obama will support entrepreneurship and spur job growth by creating a national network of public-private business incubators. Business incubators facilitate the critical work of entrepreneurs in creating start-up companies. ... Obama will invest $250 million per year to increase the number and size of incubators in disadvantaged communities throughout the country." (Obama For America, "Changing The Odds For Urban America," Fact Sheet, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/3/08)

Obama Says He Will Restore Funding To The Community Development Block Grant Program. "The important Community Development Block Grant program ... has been cut by an astonishing 31 percent since Bush took office. ... The Community Development Block Grant is an important program that helps strengthen cities and towns throughout the nation by providing housing and creating jobs primarily for low- and moderate-income people. The Bush Administration has consistently attempted to cut funding for the Community Development Block Grant, by $1.2 billion next year and $6.9 billion over the next five years. Barack Obama has fought against these cuts, and as president will restore funding for the CDBG program." (Obama For America, "Changing The Odds For Urban America," Fact Sheet, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 2/26/08)

Returning CDBG Program Funding To FY 2000 Levels Would Require $2.447 Billion In Additional Spending Per Year, Equal To $9.788 Billion:

The Fiscal Year 2008 Omnibus Appropriations Bill Provided $3.593 Billion For The Community Development Block Grant. "For assistance to units of State and local government, and to other entities, for economic and community development activities, and for other purposes, $3,865,800,000, to remain available until September 30, 2010, unless otherwise specified: Provided, That of the amount provided, $3,593,430,000 is for carrying out the community development block grant program under title I of the Housing and Community Development Act of 1974 ..." (H.R. 2764, Enacted On 12/26/07)

In Fiscal Year 2000, The Community Development Block Grant Was Funded At $4.8 Billion, Which Is Equal To $6.04 Billion In 2008 When Adjusted For Inflation. "For grants to States and units of general local government and for related expenses, not otherwise provided for, to carry out a community development grants program as authorized by title I of the Housing and Community Development Act of 1974, as amended (the `Act' herein) (42 U.S.C. 5301), $4,800,000,000, to remain available until September 30, 2002 ..." (H.R. 2684, Enacted On 10/20/99; Bureau Of Labor Statistics, "Inflation Calculator," www.bls.gov, Accessed 3/10/08)

Obama Has Proposed A Credit Card Rating System, To Be Implemented By The FTC. "Barack Obama will create a credit card rating system, modeled on five-star systems used for other consumer products, to provide consumers an easily identifiable ranking of credit cards. Under the Obama plan, the Federal Trade Commission (FTC) will assess the degree to which credit cards meet consumer-friendly standards. The FTC will test for a set of credit card features that are deemed the most dangerous for consumers, including the underwriting standards used to issue the card, the card's interest rate spread between the introductory rate and the maximum rate allowed, and transaction fees. The FTC will assign ratings so that consumers can easily understand if a credit card agreement meets or exceeds standards of safety. Credit card companies will be required to display the rating on all application and contract materials, enabling consumers to quickly understand all of the major provisions of a credit card without having to rely exclusively on fine print in lengthy documents. Credit card companies will also be required to disclose in simplified, clear language all of the major features of the card in addition to their FTC rating to provide consumers with additional information to compare credit card products." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama's Economic Agenda," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 2/26/08)

Obama Co-Sponsored Legislation That Proposed This Rating System, At A Cost Of $10 Million Per Year, Equal To $40 Million Over Four Years. Obama is a co-sponsor of S. 2411, "[a] bill to require the establishment of a credit card safety star rating system for the benefit of consumers, and for other purposes." The text of the legislation authorizes $10 million a year to carry out this program. (S. 2411, Introduced 12/5/07)

Obama Would Expand Loan Programs For Small Businesses, As Specified In The Small Business Lending Reauthorization And Improvements Act He Co-Sponsored. "Expand Loan Programs for Small Businesses: Access to capital is a top concern among small business owners. Barack Obama cosponsored the bipartisan Small Business Lending Reauthorization and Improvements Act. This bill expands the Small Business Administration's loan and micro-loan programs which provide startup and long-term financing that small firms cannot receive through normal channels. Obama will work to help more entrepreneurs get loans, expand the network of lenders, and simplify the loan approval process." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama's Plan For Small Business," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/7/08)

The Congressional Budget Office Estimated The Cost Of The Small Business Lending Reauthorization And Improvements Act Of 2007, A Bill Co-Sponsored By Obama, At $3.4 Billion Over Five Years; Equal To $680 Million Per Year And $2.72 Billion Over Four Years. "Assuming appropriation of the necessary amounts, CBO estimates that implementing S. 1256 would cost ... $3.4 billion over the 2008-2012 period." (Congressional Budget Office, "S. 1256: Small Business Lending Reauthorization And Improvements Act Of 2007," www.cbo.gov, 9/10/07)

Obama Would Assist High School Students With Obtaining Access To College-Level Courses. "Give More High School Students Access to Rigorous College-Level Courses: Students who participate in Advanced Placement (AP) programs, which give students the opportunity to take college-level courses in high school, are much more likely to enroll and succeed in college. While enrollment in AP courses has nearly tripled over the past decade, many students attend schools that do not offer AP classes. Barack Obama, with Senator Jim DeMint (R-SC), introduced a bipartisan plan to allow students who do not have access to college-level courses at their high schools to apply for need-based grants and seek credit at local colleges or community colleges." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: 21st-Century Schools For A 21st-Century Democracy," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/10/08)

Obama Co-Sponsored Legislation To Achieve This, Which Authorizes $50 Million Per Year, $200 Million Over Four Years. "Amends the Higher Education Act of 1965 to authorize the Secretary of Education to award grants to low-income secondary school juniors and seniors for the cost of taking nonremedial courses offered by institutions of higher education which award such students transferable postsecondary credits for such courses." The text of the legislation authorizes $50 million per year for the five fiscal years following the bill's enactment, equal to $200 million for fiscal years 2010 - 2013. (S. 3995, Introduced 9/26/06)

Obama Would Double Federal Funding For Basic Research. "Invest in the Sciences: Barack Obama supports doubling federal funding for basic research, changing the posture of our federal government ... to one that embraces science and technology." (Obama For America Website, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/7/08)

According To The Congressional Research Service, Federal Basic Research Funding For FY 2007 Was $28.2 Billion; To Double This Funding Level Over Four Years Would Equal $112.8 Billion. "[T]otal federal basic research funding for FY2007 would be flat at $28.2 billion (in real dollars)." (Michael E. Davey, et al., "Federal Research And Development Funding: FY2007," Congressional Research Service, 10/26/06)

Obama Would Enact The Responsible Fatherhood And Healthy Families Act Which He Co-Sponsored. "Barack Obama has re-introduced the Responsible Fatherhood and Healthy Families Act to remove some of the government penalties on married families, crack down on men avoiding child support payments, and ensure that payments go to families instead of state bureaucracies. The legislation would also fund support services for fathers and their families, including domestic violence prevention efforts. As President, he will sign this bill into law and continue to implement innovative measures to strengthen families." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: Fighting Poverty And Creating A Bridge To The Middle Class," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/9/08)

Obama's Responsible Fatherhood And Healthy Families Act Would Cost $528 Million Over Three Years. (S. 1626, Introduced 6/14/07)

Obama Would Ensure Full Health Care Enrollment Of "Priority 8" Veterans. "Barack Obama is committed to ending the unfair ban on healthcare enrollment of certain groups of veterans, including 'Priority 8' veterans who often earn modest incomes. He has voted to end this unfair policy, which has resulted in the VA turning away nearly one million veterans since 2003. As president, one of Barack Obama's first acts will be signing an executive order reversing this ban." (Obama For America, "Fulfilling A Sacred Trust With Our Veterans," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 3/10/08)

The Cost Of Enrollment For "Priority 8" Veterans Was Scored By The Congressional Budget Office At Approximately $8.8 Billion Over 5 Years, Equal To $1.76 Billion A Year And $7.04 Billion Over Four Years. "After adjusting for expected inflation, CBO estimates that implementing this provision would increase VA health care costs by ... almost $8.8 billion over the 2008-2012 period, assuming appropriation of the necessary amounts." (Congressional Budget Office, "S. 1233: Veterans Traumatic Brain Injury And Health Programs Improvement Act Of 2007," www.cbo.gov, 8/23/07)

Obama Supports Creating A National Catastrophe Fund, Similar To The One Passed By The House - Which Authorized $20 Million Per Year For The Fund; Equal To $80 Million Over Four Years. Q: "The U.S. House approved a national catastrophe fund in November. Do you support that bill?" Obama: "I think it's a good start. I think that we need a national catastrophe fund. The key is to make sure that it's run efficiently, that its adequately funded and that we build in smart incentives to assure that developers are mitigating risk when they're making decisions on where to locate homes or businesses." (Michael C. Bender, "Obama's Talk With The Palm Beach Post," Palm Beach[FL] Post, www.palmbeachpost.com, 5/23/08)

The House Legislation Authorized $20 Million Per Year To Establish The National Catastrophe Risk Consortium. "H.R. 3355 would authorize the appropriation of $20 million for each of fiscal years 2008 through 2013 to establish the National Catastrophe Risk Consortium." (Congressional Budget Office, "H.R. 3355: Homeowners' Defense Act Of 2007," www.cbo.gov, 10/30/07)

Obama Would Spend $500 Million A Year For Religious Organizations To Help The Disadvantaged; Equal To $2 Billion Over Four Years. "Democrat Barack Obama said yesterday that if elected president he would set aside more than $500 million a year in federal funds for religious organizations to help the disadvantaged, sharply expanding a Bush administration program that has strong support from evangelical Christians." (Joseph Williams, "Obama Vows $500M In Faith-Based Aid," The Boston Globe, 7/2/08)

Obama Proposed Spending $90 Million A Year To Double The Manufacturing Extension Partnership; Equal To $360 Million Over Four Years. "In a new initiative, Obama proposed spending $90 million a year to double the Manufacturing Extension Partnership. The 20-year-old program has helped manufacturers improve efficiency and growth, he said, but has been underfunded. Sen. Hillary Rodham Clinton, his Democratic rival, made a similar proposal months ago." (Charles Babington, "Obama Woos Working-Class Voters In Michigan," The Associated Press, 5/14/08)

Obama Proposed Creating $10 Billion In Additional Mortgage Revenue Bonds, At A Cost Of $50 Million To The Federal Government. "Barack Obama will provide $10 billion in additional Mortgage Revenue Bonds, at a cost of $50 million to the federal government, to help families facing foreclosure refinance and to enable low- and moderate-income first time homebuyers purchase a home." (Obama For America, "Protecting Homeownership & Cracking Down On Mortgage Fraud In Texas," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 7/14/08)

Obama Would Extend Trade Adjustment Assistance To Service Industries. "To help all workers adapt to a rapidly changing economy, Obama would update the existing system of Trade Adjustment Assistance by extending it to service industries, creating flexible education accounts to help workers retrain, and providing retraining assistance for workers in sectors of the economy vulnerable to dislocation before they lose their jobs." (Obama For America Website, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 7/14/08)

The Cost Of Extending Trade Adjustment Assistance To Service Industry Workers Was Scored By The Congressional Budget Office At $2.5 Billion Over 10 Years; Equal To $250 Million Per Year And $1 Billion Over Four Years. "CBO estimates that provisions in S. 1309 to include workers involved in the provision of services in the class of workers eligible for TAA benefits would increase outlays by $2.5 billion from 2006 through 2015." (Congressional Budget Office, "S. 1309: Trade Adjustment Assistance Equity For Service Workers Act Of 2005," www.cbo.gov, 9/19/05)

Obama Would Double Funding For The Jobs Access And Reverse Commute (JARC) Program. "Obama will double the federal Jobs Access and Reverse Commute (JARC) program to ensure that additionally federal public transportation dollars flow to the highest-need communities and that urban planning initiatives take this aspect of transportation policy into account." (Obama For America, "Changing The Odds For Urban America," Fact Sheet, www.barackobama.com, Accessed 7/14/08)

According To The U.S. Federal Transit Administration, The JARC Program Was Authorized $156 Million In FY 2008; To Double JARC For Four Years Would Cost $624 Million. (U.S. Department Of Transportation, Federal Transit Administration Website, www.fta.dot.gov, Accessed 7/14/08)

Obama Supports Funding The National Science Foundation's Advanced Technological Education Program At $100 Million. "As president, Barack Obama will support authorization of the National Science Foundation's Advanced Technological Education program at $100 million, a critical program that has helped support STEM programs in community colleges." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: Preparing America For 21st Century Jobs," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 7/14/08)

In FY 2008 This Program Was Authorized At $52 Million, According To The National Science Foundation's Budget. That Means An Additional $48 Million Is Needed Per Year To Reach $100 Million, Equal To $192 Million Over Four Years. (National Science Foundation, "National Science Foundation Current Authorizations," www.nsf.gov, Accessed 7/14/08)

Obama Would Provide $25 Million A Year For States To Develop Early Assessment Programs To Increase College Readiness; Equal To $100 Million Over Four Years. "Some states have developed an Early Assessment Program that enables 11th graders and their families to ascertain if they are on track to be college ready by the time they graduate. ... This program will increase college readiness and is voluntary. Barack Obama will provide $25 million annually in matching funds for states to develop Early Assessment Programs." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: Making College Affordable For Everyone," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 7/14/08)

Obama Would Provide $250 Million To "Bring Quality Teachers Back To The Gulf Region." Obama: "Many heroic, high-quality teachers have returned to New Orleans - but we need more. That is why I have called for $250 million to bring quality teachers back to the Gulf region. Any teacher or principal who commits to come here for three years should receive an annual bonus; and those who teach in subject areas where we face shortages - such as math and science - should receive an additional bonus." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama To Lay Out Program To Rebuild New Orleans And The Gulf Coast Region," Press Release, www.barackobama.com, 2/7/08)

Obama Would Spend $1 Billion A Year In Autism-Related Funding By The End Of His First Term. Obama: "My administration will not only work to fully fund the Individuals with Disabilities Education Act and the Combating Autism Act, but will add to that a commitment of $1 billion dollars a year in autism-related funding by the end of my first term." (Obama For America, "Obama Statement In Support Of World Autism Awareness Day And Awareness Month," Press Release, www.barackobama.com, 4/2/08)

Obama Would Add "65,000 Soldiers To The Army And 27,000 Marines," Which Would Cost Approximately $11.04 Billion Per Year, Equal To $44.16 Billion Over Four Years. Obama: "That's why I strongly support the expansion of our ground forces by adding 65,000 soldiers to the Army and 27,000 Marines." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks To The Chicago Council On Global Affairs, Chicago, IL, 4/24/07)

It Costs Approximately $1.2 Billion A Year For 10,000 Soldiers. "Every additional 10,000 soldiers would cost about $1.2 billion a year, according to the Army." (Peter Baker, "U.S. Not Winning War In Iraq, Bush Says For 1st Time," The Washington Post, 12/20/06)

Obama Would Provide An Additional $1 Billion Per Year In Non-Military Assistance To Afghanistan, Equal To $4 Billion Over Four Years. Obama: "Moreover, lasting security will only come if we heed Marshall's lesson, and help Afghans grow their economy from the bottom up. That's why I've proposed an additional $1 billion in non-military assistance each year, with meaningful safeguards to prevent corruption and to make sure investments are made - not just in Kabul - but out in Afghanistan's provinces. As a part of this program, we'll invest in alternative livelihoods to poppy-growing for Afghan farmers, just as we crack down on heroin trafficking." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks On Iraq And National Security, Washington, DC, 7/15/08)

Obama Plans To Implement Legislation That Would "Triple Non-Military Aid To The Pakistani People." Obama: "It's time to strengthen stability by standing up for the aspirations of the Pakistani people. That's why I'm cosponsoring a bill with Joe Biden and Richard Lugar to triple non-military aid to the Pakistani people and to sustain it for a decade, while ensuring that the military assistance we do provide is used to take the fight to the Taliban and al Qaeda." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks On Iraq And National Security, Washington, DC, 7/15/08)

It Would Authorize $7.5 Billion Over Five Years, An Increase Of Approximately $5 Billion In Spending, Equal To A $1 Billion Increase Per Year. "The bill triples non-military aid to Pakistan and sustains it over five years. Specifically, the legislation authorizes $7.5 billion over 5 years in aid that can be used for development purposes, such as building schools, roads and clinics. ... Authorizes $7.5 billion over the next 5 fiscal years ($1.5 billion annually) in non-military aid. Advocates an additional $7.5 billion over the subsequent 5 years." (Sen. Joe Biden, "Biden, Lugar Introduce Landmark Legislation On Pakistan," Press Release, biden.senate.gov, 7/15/08)

Obama Would Spend $5 Billion Over Three Years To Create A Shared Security Partnership. Obama: "To strengthen our efforts with friends and partners, I've proposed a Shared Security Partnership that invests $5 billion over 3 years to forge an international intelligence and law enforcement infrastructure to take down terrorist networks." (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN, 7/16/08)

Obama Would "Lead A Global Effort To Secure All Nuclear Weapons And Material At Vulnerable Sites Within Four Years." "Barack Obama will lead a global effort to secure all nuclear weapons and material at vulnerable sites within four years." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: The War We Need To Win," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 7/15/08)

Obama Said This Could Be Funded By Ending The War In Iraq, At A Cost Of $10 Billion Over Four Years. Obama: "We are spending $10 billion a month in Iraq. ... For the amount of money that we are spending in Iraq in one month, if that same amount of money is spent over the course of the next four years, we could lock up all the loose nuclear material that exists out there. That strikes me as a good investment to make. (Sen. Barack Obama, Remarks At Purdue University, West Lafayette, IN, 7/16/08)

Obama Proposes Doubling Funding For The Consumer Product Safety Commission. "As President, Obama will enact a plan to protect Americans from unsafe products. In addition to banning lead-tainted toys and increasing fines for companies that fail to disclose known safety hazards with their products, Obama will: ... Double the funding for the Consumer Product Safety Commission, and make sure it has the inspectors it needs to ensure that the goods we're buying are safe." (Obama For America, "Obama Vows To Protect Kids And Ban Toys With Lead," Press Release, 12/23/07)

In FY 2008, The CPSC Was Funded At $80 Million. Doubling Funding Would Cost An Additional $80 Million Per Year, Equal To $320 Million Over Four Years. (Thomas H. Moore, U.S. Consumer Product Safety Commissioner, Statement Submitted To The Subcommittee On Financial Services And General Government, House Committee On Appropriations, www.cpsc.gov, 3/11/08)

Obama Has Proposed $2 Billion In Additional NASA Funding. "Sen. Barack Obama has detailed a comprehensive space plan that includes $2 billion in new funding to reinvigorate NASA and a promise to make space exploration and science a significantly higher priority if he is elected president." (Marc Kaufman, "Obama Suggests $2 Billion In New Funding For NASA," The Washington Post, 8/19/08)

Obama Will Increase The Maximum Pell Grant To $5,400 And Ensure The Grant Keeps Pace With The Rising Cost Of College Inflation. "Two decades ago, the maximum Pell Grant covered 55 percent of costs at a public four-year college, compared with only 32 percent today. The first bill Barack Obama introduced in the U.S. Senate would have helped make college more affordable for many Americans by increasing the maximum Pell Grant from the limit of $4,050 to a new maximum of $5,100. Obama has worked in a bipartisan way on the Senate Health Education Labor and Pensions Committee to achieve an increase in the Pell Grant to $5,400 over the next few years. As president, Obama will continue to work to ensure that the maximum Pell Grant award is increased for low-income students. Specifically, he will ensure that the award keeps pace with the rising cost of college inflation." (Obama For America, "Barack Obama: Making College Affordable For Everyone," www.barackobama.com, Accessed 7/14/08)

The National Taxpayers Union Estimated This Would Cost $7.08 Billion Per Year, Equal To $28.32 Billion Over Four Years. "Cost: $7.08 billion ($35.401 billion over five years). Source: Obama is a cosponsor of S. 359 (110th Congress): A bill to amend the Higher Education Act of 1965 to provide additional support to students. Section 2 of the bill increases the maximum Pell Grant award and authorizes additional funds." (National Taxpayers Union Foundation, "Democratic Presidential Primary Spending Analysis - Barack Obama," www.ntu.org, 6/3/08)

Obama Would Spend $200 Million A Year To Develop "Regional Clusters" To Spur "Smart-Growth Strategies," Equal To $800 Million Over Four Years. "Sen. Obama says his administration would shift urban-policy making to so-called smart-growth strategies that synchronize transportation, commercial and housing needs for entire regions, rather than following the tradition of focusing first on fighting poverty and crime. He would fund $200 million in annual grants to develop 'regional clusters,' such as the high-technology-focused area known as the Research Triangle in North Carolina." (Corey Dade, "Obama Promotes Plan For Urban Development," The Wall Street Journal, 8/25/08)

Obama Would Spend $5 Billion Over 10 Years To Protect And Restore The Great Lakes, Equal To $500 Million A Year And $2 Billion Over Four Years. "Democratic presidential candidate Barack Obama is promising to push for $5 billion in new funds to protect and restore the Great Lakes if he gets elected in November. The money would come over a 10-year period from rolling back tax breaks for oil and gas companies, and it would flow toward things such as sewage system treatment repairs, toxic cleanups and wetlands restoration, according to a Great Lakes restoration plan the Obama campaign is expected to release today." (Dan Egan, "Obama Plan Calls For $5 Billion To Protect, Restore Great Lakes," Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 9/15/08)

Obama Would Increase PEPFAR Funding By $2 Billion. "President Bush created the $15 billion President's Emergency Program for AIDS Relief (PEPFAR), which helps treat and prevent HIV/AIDS in sub-Saharan Africa and the Caribbean. The program was reauthorized this year, bumping U.S. contributions up to $48 billion over the next five years. Obama has pledged to increase funding for PEPFAR to $50 billion and plans to revise the bill to include Southeast Asia, India and Eastern Europe." ("Platform Review: Candidate Positions On Science And Tech Issues," elections.foxnews.com, 9/18/08)


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## Bassett (Oct 10, 2008)

> _Obama wants to make it so 10 million Americans will not have to pay taxes._Where did you hear this?



HUH??? Look at his web site. I don't think you are as informed as you think you are. Or did you miss that part?


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## littlesteppers (Oct 10, 2008)

Bassett said:


> > _Obama wants to make it so 10 million Americans will not have to pay taxes._Where did you hear this?
> 
> 
> 
> HUH??? Look at his web site. I don't think you are as informed as you think you are. Or did you miss that part?


Aww..Bassett..this seems to be a common thing ..you only informed IF you agree..otherwise you don't have a clue..at least I am OPEN enough to look at both sides..and the more i LOOK..THE MORE i DISSAGREE..


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## Pepipony (Oct 10, 2008)

littlesteppers said:


> Pepipony said:
> 
> 
> > Well, so far, its been rhetoric spoken by 'you'. I will loose this, I will loose that, he will do this, he will do that. Then most of the time it bears out that 'you' were wrong in what you stated. Thus, no clue. Or the clue that 'you' have , is one given to you by someone who really hasnt a clue. But, since its in text in must be true.
> ...



No. Read WHAT I write and dont read INTO what I write. Posts back people were flipping out, oh I'm gonna have to fire people, yada yada yada. All because THEY didnt read and/or understand what 'makes over $250k' meant. Now, will they actually think back and say wow, I got that one wrong or will they still carry over that bias into other things?

If you make a statement such as the one above and are WRONG, then, you really have no clue.


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## Buckskin gal (Oct 10, 2008)

So much of this is total nonsense! If Obama wants to spend the money on people to make their lives better, I would much rather see that then to see it spent on Bushes and Mc Cains war! From what I have seen, Obama has much more common sense about the use of our money than McCain has. If all the money that was spent on this crazy war would have been used for the betterment of the average American person we wouldn't be so totally in debt to China and other countries. Mc Cain has become DESPERATE about what to do next to try and win the election and all he has left is to try and ruin his opponants reputation and that seems to be the ploy being used here also. I want to give credit to those who don't buy into all the propaganda.! JMHO


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## Bassett (Oct 10, 2008)

> this crazy war


I beg to differ with you. I don't necessarily agree that this is a crazy war. I would much rather have it fought where it is than have it on OUR homefront which it definitely would be had we done nothing. jmho


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## sdmini (Oct 10, 2008)

Buckskin gal said:


> So much of this is total nonsense! If Obama wants to spend the money on people to make their lives better, I would much rather see that then to see it spent on Bushes and Mc Cains war! From what I have seen, Obama has much more common sense about the use of our money than McCain has. If all the money that was spent on this crazy war would have been used for the betterment of the average American person we wouldn't be so totally in debt to China and other countries. Mc Cain has become DESPERATE about what to do next to try and win the election and all he has left is to try and ruin his opponants reputation and that seems to be the ploy being used here also. I want to give credit to those who don't buy into all the propaganda.! JMHO


Talk about desperate, where did I write about the war?

Simple 2+2 math, you can not cut funding (taxes) and increase spending. The ONLY program Obama has even hinted at is lowering foreign aid and that's it. (Every time the question gets asked he deflects on what McCain is doing wrong.) If we went to work on Monday and our company is having trouble making ends meet and the boss says "Everyone gets a raise AND we are cutting our products price", would you get behind him and say, "Wow he's brilliant."

When you are talking about people buying into propaganda do you really think Obama is going to be able to get all those programs he's selling the American public on into effect with this economy? Do you think he's even going to get a 1/3 into play.

Obama is a dreamer, which is a great, vital thing but not for the Commander in Chief.

Debate me on the issues, I crave that from here, not the silly nonsense about cars and that bs. What I've laid before you IS OBAMA'S PLATFORM, there is not some big _ploy _ as you put it. From both sides on here I've seen when it can not get rebuked it either turns to silence or sneers. Guess I for one would rather hear the silence than meaningless comments.

I said before I'm not big on either candidate but I did my homework and came out with who I thought was best. Now many are not big on Bush but remember he was voted by the MAJORITY of the people, so obviously by your own conclusions sometimes the people don't get it right.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 10, 2008)

OH. You're talking about the "Making Work Pay" tax credit.

"Obama's tax plan began with a "Making Work Pay" credit that would offset payroll taxes on the first $8,100 of earnings, generating up to $500 per person or $1,000 per family. The campaign said that would eliminate income taxes for 10 million low-income Americans."

Note we're not talking about eliminating taxes for random middle class people. These folks would have their income taxes eliminated because they are making SO LITTLE that the $1,000 tax credit is more than or equal to the amount of income tax they pay.

They get the same tax credit as everyone else does, though.


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## Pepipony (Oct 10, 2008)

Bassett said:


> > this crazy war
> 
> 
> I beg to differ with you. I don't necessarily agree that this is a crazy war. I would much rather have it fought where it is than have it on OUR homefront which it definitely would be had we done nothing. jmho



OK, so with that sentiment in mind then, you will take a 13 yo boy who shoots a Squirrel and put him in prison??? I mean, itsnt that the EXACT same thing? Not know the facts, not know the future but plan a preemptive strike, JIC? That is just insane talk. This isnt a crazy war, this is a *&$^#%#@ insane war. << And I mean Iraq, not Afghanistan.

We are a democracy, we are not a dictatorship. To invade another country because 'we think' they may invade us? Guess then we will be actually going into N Viet Nam , Iran, China, Russia to name a few. They 'may' attack, better go git em first


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## Bassett (Oct 10, 2008)

Pepipony said:


> Bassett said:
> 
> 
> > > this crazy war
> ...



Pepi this is just plain crazy talk you are spewing. All I did was state my opinion and as always if an opinion doesn't agree with yours it is not right.



I would like to keep this war away from my front door. Enough said. That is MY opinion. Nothing else.


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## Pepipony (Oct 10, 2008)

When people say that they would rather fight them over there than over here, because they 'may' eventually, some century attack us, that to me is insane. It is one thing to go after someone that has actually attacked you in some way, then to go after someone who is at the moment, minding their own business. Saddam was an evil man, no doubt about it, but if we went after every evil man or invaded every country because they may attack us, well, you can guess where that is going.

No one wants a war in their yard. I get that. But how can it be right to attack and invade a country because 'they may' attack? I dont think Saddam would have ever been crazy enough to attack us. He was way to happy to be his own little dictator in his own little country.

Do you think we should attack any other countries? << I ask that in all sincerity and not out of sarcasm.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 10, 2008)

Have any of you Obama supporters heard anything he's said about pulling out of Iran so he has more troops to put into Afghanistan? Do you think he's planning a tea party??? If you're so dead set against war, no matter what reasons there are for it, you wouldn't be voting for Obama any more than you'd be voting for McCain.



> Do you think we should attack any other countries?


Thank God none of us are in a position to have to make those decisions. But Obama has already stated that he's not only going into Afghanistan....but that he's gonna bomb Palestine.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 10, 2008)

Shoot ML, Palin can walk to Russia. Won't cost much at all.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 10, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Well Palin said she is going into Russia and Iran!!!!
> Lets go get em.. before they get us!!!


Since Palin is not running for president she can say just about anything she wants..

Now Obama on the other hand said..he will go into Iran and afghanistan..NO WAR, NO WAR..I will bring the troops home within 15 month..OOps sorry..this was 1 year ago..hard to keep up!


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## lildrummer (Oct 10, 2008)

I had rather have a leader willing to talk w/people we disagree with, or who we know are against our beliefs, than bomb them? I also like the idea of creative thinking and new ideas. I also find him much more reflective and introspective, even though I respect and appreciate McCain. Bigger, meaner and stronger, is not what I want for the future.





Lildrummer


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## lildrummer (Oct 10, 2008)

Right on

Lildrummer


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## sdmini (Oct 10, 2008)

No LowRise here is is; the exact word for word statement taken off the Obama website:

_*Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama and Biden will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama and Biden will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.* _

It is very carefully construed as to lead the average working joe that they will be getting a tax cut, or as Obama put it, "Completely eliminating income taxes for 10 million Americans." They don't put "low income" anywhere in the paragraph. A good solid eighty percent of us are the average working joe, do I think Obama is crazy enough to cut eighty percent of the revenue, no. What I do see is a very cleaver way for a lot of those "Joe" to buy into the idea. There is no "change" here it's the same old, I'll promise you the moon if you get me in office, since the dawn of time.

ML good to see your taking a page out of Obama's book, when you don't have an answer dodge and deflect on to McCain/Palin.


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 10, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Oh Marlee, I was just being silly sarcastic on the way Palin was war mongering a few weeks ago.. She stopped that and is now fear mongering..


She isn't the only one doing that



it seems to be prevalent around here too


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## sdmini (Oct 10, 2008)

I know silly me, I went through the trouble of learning the candidates platforms and researching them simply so I could threaten everyone with a big stick.





I know some of my post get a bit catty as well in truth I am a bit that way but there was "meat" in my posts and concerns that no one bit into. Anyways this is my last post on these subjects as, as I age I'm trying to become a better person not the B!*@$ I am (but then again dad always said play to your strong suit



) with any luck I will not even come and look here till after the Elections. ('Cause I know I can't shut up.)

If Obama gets elected and becomes the best president ever I'm ecstatic because I'm benefiting same as the rest of the US. If he gets elected and things go worse, middle class me is in the same boat as everyone else. Win or lose I'm voting for the candidate who stood out best according to my research and in the end that is all any of us can do.


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## McBunz (Oct 11, 2008)

littlesteppers said:


> Mary Lou - LB said:
> 
> 
> > Well Palin said she is going into Russia and Iran!!!!
> ...


Do you condone Palin saying anything she wants including smear tactics just because she is running for the second highest office in

the United States instead of the highest office.. McCain is now retracting many of his ads and Palin jibes as this tactic has

probably cost him any chance at the Presidency.. I don't blame McCain for this... but his campaign managers. Since the

campaign has turned so vile, McCain started looking ill. The sad part is Palin looked like she was enjoying her smear campaign.


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## Pepipony (Oct 11, 2008)

littlesteppers said:


> Mary Lou - LB said:
> 
> 
> > Well Palin said she is going into Russia and Iran!!!!
> ...




No she isnt, but she is running for the 2nd seat. McCain isnt a spring chicken and while I hope he lives a long life, lets be real. He was tortured and has had illness. That is not a recipe for long life. What if he doesnt make his full term? What will Palin do? She has given us some strong hints.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 11, 2008)

sdmini said:


> No LowRise here is is; the exact word for word statement taken off the Obama website:
> _*Provide a Tax Cut for Working Families: Obama and Biden will restore fairness to the tax code and provide 150 million workers the tax relief they need. Obama and Biden will create a new "Making Work Pay" tax credit of up to $500 per person, or $1,000 per working family. The "Making Work Pay" tax credit will completely eliminate income taxes for 10 million Americans.* _


Sometimes, you have to do a little more research. This is from a website that doesn't even support the tax plan, but they still get it. http://www.taxfoundation.org/blog/show/22617.html

"Obama's tax plan began with a "Making Work Pay" credit that would offset payroll taxes on the first $8,100 of earnings, generating up to $500 per person or $1,000 per family. The campaign said that would eliminate income taxes for 10 million low-income Americans."


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## Pepipony (Oct 11, 2008)

AppyLover2 said:


> Have any of you Obama supporters heard anything he's said about pulling out of Iran so he has more troops to put into Afghanistan? Do you think he's planning a tea party??? If you're so dead set against war, no matter what reasons there are for it, you wouldn't be voting for Obama any more than you'd be voting for McCain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Actually, he wont be going into Afghanistan as we are already there. He will be increasing troops because the Taliban, who back Al Qeda , is increasing in power and strength since we are bogged down in Iraq. Ihave never, ever once, said I am against war. I have said, time and again, that I am against war just so they dont get us here. IOW, take it to them before they get to us. A country, person etc, has to make a first move. An actual, first move. Sad and as terrible as that is, we cannot just go invading countries because they may, at one time, attack us.

I would love for us to be able to go into these p-ant countries who have evil people run them, and clean them out. But if we have learned anything in the last 8 years, we cannot afford to do that. Shoot, with the state we are in now, Joe six-pack better be stashing his shells back.

As for Palestine. Please post where you heard that. All I have heard of how he 'may' attack a country is if they attack another NATO and we are asked to go in. WITH the exception of Pakistan.


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## tagalong (Oct 12, 2008)

> As for Palestine. Please post where you heard that. All I have heard of how he 'may' attack a country is if they attack another NATO and we are asked to go in. WITH the exception of Pakistan.


I would like to know where that came from as well.... a link, please? I have not read or seen anything about bombing Palestine... which would not happen as you would essentially be bombing Israel and Israelis as well... as any map of the West Bank will show you.



> Actually, he wont be going into Afghanistan as we are already there.


Exactly. And while millions are spent in Iraq... Al Qaedah is on the rise in Afghanistan again - and then there's that guy we were going to catch in two weeks... two months... two years... how many years? Osama Bin Laden is still out there doing whatever the heck he pleases....


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## Buckskin gal (Oct 12, 2008)

Gee Marlee where in the world did you come up with the notion that I was speaking to you? What I said was not addressed to you at all and I don't know why you think it was. Are you just being desperate as to who to blame for your misunderstanding my comments.



I did not say you wrote something about the war and I have no idea where you came up with such a thing/ And I too do my research but I may not draw the same conclusions as you have and I think that is the way it should be....to each his own opinion so I hope you let it go for I don't care to be attacked like that.







sdmini said:


> Buckskin gal said:
> 
> 
> > So much of this is total nonsense! If Obama wants to spend the money on people to make their lives better, I would much rather see that then to see it spent on Bushes and Mc Cains war! From what I have seen, Obama has much more common sense about the use of our money than McCain has. If all the money that was spent on this crazy war would have been used for the betterment of the average American person we wouldn't be so totally in debt to China and other countries. Mc Cain has become DESPERATE about what to do next to try and win the election and all he has left is to try and ruin his opponants reputation and that seems to be the ploy being used here also. I want to give credit to those who don't buy into all the propaganda.! JMHO
> ...


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