# when working in the halter



## barnbum (Jan 9, 2010)

Well--there's lots of snow out there now--but they'll still put their head down to snuffle that!






I tied baler twine from the top of the halter to the surcingle, but that just makes them pull the surcingle a quarter up (down?) their mane. Good grief. I'm not training for driving--or shows--so it doesn't matter how long I stay in the halter, but adding the side check will steer me to adding it sooner.

I will say--the longer we work--the less they do it--it's mostly in the first 10 min I wrestle with this. And if I work them in the road--we're fine. But--I'd like to stay in a halter for awhile.

Suggestions?


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## Reble (Jan 9, 2010)

Hi Karla, thought you where talking about halter standing not driving.

oops did not see that sorry...

Still might work backing them, everytime they drop their head.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 9, 2010)

Reble, she's ground-driving behind the horse in a halter so a chain would be a no-no.





Karla, you need to get a backstrap and crupper on that surcingle. That will keep it from getting pulled forward when the horse drops her head, and if you combine that with running the baling twine down to the middle of the noseband (over the forehead) instead of only to the back of the crownpiece that should stop them. I realize this strongly resembles an overcheck (eww!) but I'm afraid with minis being such small little creatures and so close to the ground that they may be able to get grass even with the crownpiece pulled tight!



You'll have to experiment and see what works but the backstrap/crupper is the main thing you're missing.

Leia


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## barnbum (Jan 9, 2010)

Hobby--I was driving home from Tractor Supply a few hours ago and it hit me--duh! I told my daughter I had just realized the answere to a question I posted on the forum... and said I just need the crupper! She had no idea what I was talking about, but I was happy.



Thanks for your reply.


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## BannerBrat (Jan 9, 2010)

[SIZE=12pt]Just a thought, I think without a bit any check you rig won't be enough to keep them from getting their head down... they'll just pull through it.[/SIZE]

I think you're better to correct them with your voice/whip. You might want to start with just leading them to teach them what it means when you correct them. (That you don't want them to put their head down.)


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## barnbum (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks, Ashley.

I did that with Jazz at first. I'd give him a snap sound and say "head up!" but when one is driving through all that grass... one would rather not listen so intently.



Their heads are so close to the ground, and if the grass is at all tall... it's a losing battle. Once the bit was in, Jazz gave up on snacking. I'll keep adding the voice though.

My horses are always starving from being fed so little.


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## RhineStone (Jan 10, 2010)

Your horse is making decisions he should not get to make. It is not acceptable behavior. You need to be the "parent" and not rely on some contraption to keep the horse's head up. The biggest mistake that I see horse owners do is allow their horses to graze while in hand. When we have a halter and lead on our horses, it is all business. There is no grazing or smelling the ground. If the horse is allowed to graze on a lead or a longe line, how can they tell the difference between that and a driving harness?

With very persistent horses, I will actually "pop" them in the nose with my foot when they put their head down, and yank on the lead both with a strong "HEAD UP" command. It doesn't take smart ones very long to figure out that when they put their head down that far, that it "stings" a little. You are NOT going to hurt your horse!!!! (Watch a mare correct a foal, she is NOT asking nicely!) Horses don't respect a simple voice command if it doesn't accompany a physical command, at least at first. What do they have to "lose" with just a voice command? It means nothing. Just like a child in church, they need to learn self-control. Going back to the halter/lead will help them figure that out.


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## BannerBrat (Jan 10, 2010)

barnbum said:


> Thanks, Ashley.I did that with Jazz at first. I'd give him a snap sound and say "head up!" but when one is driving through all that grass... one would rather not listen so intently.
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[SIZE=12pt]Hahaha, poor guys! If you fed them it might solve your problem!



[/SIZE]

Yup, tall grass and short horses are a tough battle, but it can be won!







RhineStone said:


> Your horse is making decisions he should not get to make. It is not acceptable behavior. You need to be the "parent" and not rely on some contraption to keep the horse's head up. The biggest mistake that I see horse owners do is allow their horses to graze while in hand. When we have a halter and lead on our horses, it is all business. There is no grazing or smelling the ground. *If the horse is allowed to graze on a lead or a longe line, how can they tell the difference between that and a driving harness? *
> With very persistent horses, I will actually "pop" them in the nose with my foot when they put their head down, and yank on the lead both with a strong "HEAD UP" command. It doesn't take smart ones very long to figure out that when they put their head down that far, that it "stings" a little. You are NOT going to hurt your horse!!!! (Watch a mare correct a foal, she is NOT asking nicely!) Horses don't respect a simple voice command if it doesn't accompany a physical command, at least at first. What do they have to "lose" with just a voice command? It means nothing. Just like a child in church, they need to learn self-control. Going back to the halter/lead will help them figure that out.



[SIZE=12pt]I agree with you RhineStone, up until where I bolded. I sometimes walk my gelding around and let him graze like after work or if we are going for a walk and we stop for a bit, and he definently knows the difference. I tell him it's 'okay' when he can eat and he's pretty much figured out that if I don't say it's okay it's not. [/SIZE]

Not that he doesn't try from time to time, but I honestly think that's more his personality then that he doesn't know the difference. Most of the time his attempts are pretty pathetic. But, I could be wrong... maybe that's one of the problems we need to work on...





And I agree wholeheartedly with your second paragraph.


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## RhineStone (Jan 10, 2010)

BannerBrat said:


> [SIZE=12pt]I sometimes walk my gelding around and let him graze like after work or if we are going for a walk and we stop for a bit, and he definently knows the difference. I tell him it's 'okay' when he can eat and he's pretty much figured out that if I don't say it's okay it's not. [/SIZE]


There are a few "special occasions" that I will allow a horse to graze in hand, but yes, like you, they have to "ask for permission". I have taught Showmanship clinics, and once the clinic was held in an arena some distance from the stabling area. My gelding walked along with me nicely to the building, maintaining appropriate space, stopping when I asked, etc. I turned around to look at the kids coming behind me, and they were struggling to keep their horse's heads out of the grass on the way there: a few steps, throw head down and snack, another few steps, grab a bite on the way. I used that as an example of why properly leading your horse at ANY time is necessary training to make them a "good citizen". I truly believe that a horse that has NOT had at least a little bit of Showmanship training is more difficult to be around than one that has.

The special occasions that I may let a horse graze in hand would be such as when we are at a show and one of us is cleaning stalls. It is easier sometimes to remove the horse from the stall. They may not have been out for a while, so a "snack" might be a good treat. They have to "ask permission", which usually includes them gently nudging down on the lead, at which then I say, "Ok", and let the lead out a little. If it is not ok, I will bump them back with the lead. The other time I might let them graze is after a bath when I would like them to dry and not roll. They might have been asked to stand for quite a length of time, and the grazing is a little bit of a treat. These exceptions are probably less than 3X a year, definitely not something we do on a regular basis that they come to expect. If they expect it, they will start to "demand" it.





That being said, I NEVER let a young horse that we are training graze in hand. It is too confusing. They need to learn the expectations first, and then the exceptions. Not the other way around.





Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 11, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> There are a few "special occasions" that I will allow a horse to graze in hand, but yes, like you, they have to "ask for permission". I have taught Showmanship clinics, and once the clinic was held in an arena some distance from the stabling area. My gelding walked along with me nicely to the building, maintaining appropriate space, stopping when I asked, etc. I turned around to look at the kids coming behind me, and they were struggling to keep their horse's heads out of the grass on the way there: a few steps, throw head down and snack, another few steps, grab a bite on the way. I used that as an example of why properly leading your horse at ANY time is necessary training to make them a "good citizen". I truly believe that a horse that has NOT had at least a little bit of Showmanship training is more difficult to be around than one that has.
> The special occasions that I may let a horse graze in hand would be such as when we are at a show and one of us is cleaning stalls. It is easier sometimes to remove the horse from the stall. They may not have been out for a while, so a "snack" might be a good treat. They have to "ask permission", which usually includes them gently nudging down on the lead, at which then I say, "Ok", and let the lead out a little. If it is not ok, I will bump them back with the lead. The other time I might let them graze is after a bath when I would like them to dry and not roll. They might have been asked to stand for quite a length of time, and the grazing is a little bit of a treat. These exceptions are probably less than 3X a year, definitely not something we do on a regular basis that they come to expect. *If they expect it, they will start to "demand" it*.
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Myrna, I don't know how it is where you live but in my area our turnouts are all dirt and the only place for the horses to graze is on the roadside. Obviously I'm not going to turn them loose out there so we do a lot of grazing in-hand!



Over time I have developed the same philosophy of "ask permission nicely" and fine-tuned that to "ask permission nicely and I might say yes, demand and the answer is always no plus a reprimand and back to work until you've earned the privilege of trying again."



The horses know what the expectations are and the difference between a pleasure walk where they may browse and going to work where diving for grass will get them in big trouble. They do not demand because that is simply not allowed in our household regardless of how often we graze in-hand; grazing is a privilege, not a right, and privileges are earned by making Mama happy.

It _is_ harder this way to keep good manners, but just like teaching a horse to canter in harness means they will sometimes try to break I don't consider the added difficulty in training to outweigh the benefits in our geographic area. If I had grass turnouts it would probably be a different story.





I agree 100% that they have to be taught the rules before the exceptions. We use a release word ("Okay") to indicate it is now okay to graze and the horse MUST lift his head immediately when told to "Walk On" or he'll get a sharp yank and get put to work for a few minutes to get my point across. Works pretty well for us!

Leia


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## barnbum (Jan 11, 2010)

My horses don't eat/graze in hand unless I give them permission. The cue is "eat!"

And it would only happen after we're done with a work out and only if the pasture is eaten clean and the lawn is lush. (It's sooooo tempting to them--like a chocoholic walking over a Hersey bar.) And it's never for more than 2-3 minutes. When the time is over, I say walk and we walk. So, that's not a problem. (Well--the only horse I have trouble with is Rosie, and she's learning, but she's not a ground driving girl.)

Also--if a horse tries to eat when I don't want it to, (this was learned when I had a big one) I slide my toe under their nose and lift it so they get a pop and learn. That usually works. But, that can't be done when I'm behind them.


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## RhineStone (Jan 11, 2010)

With the exception of our dirt/sand paddock where the horses are kept for the most part, we have grass EVERYWHERE, pasture, lawn, woods, etc. The carriage shows here are mostly on the nice, lush grass of parks and lawns. You have to TEACH a mini not to put their head down. It is a safety consideration. When we first started showing carriage shows, we used a side check, as that is what we were using in the breed shows (which were in a dirt arena). My gelding was waiting for the class, and threw his head down to snack. I pulled up on him, but when his head came up, the check got caught under the shaft. That made it that much tighter, which in turn started him rearing up. The Show Organizer happened to be right there and grabbed the check out from underneath the shaft. It could have been an awful wreck. We took the check off right then and there. Also, we started right away on "snacking manners". Even though he has won numerous division championships in Small Pony and VSE, he is a smart and persistant horse. You can't let him get away with anything. There is NO grazing in hand for that gelding, even at 19. His philosophy is "you give a little, I'll take a lot"! Even if there is no check, you risk the rein being caught under the shaft, giving you no control.

That being said, I really don't understand what the original question was now. Were you just looking to solve the problem with just a crupper? I really don't think that solved the problem, just for the reasons I stated above, and what Ashley also stated. Granted, our check was not tight, but a tight check is not going to help your horse learn to carry themselves properly. It's just going to throw their head in the air and hollow the back. Horses need to learn what is acceptable behavior. Sometimes, that involves going back to the basic handling of the horse. If your horse is not allowed to graze in hand on their own, and your issue is only when you are behind them, your cue you are using when you are at their head is not transferring to your line driving. If it were my horse, I would get very persistant about what my expectations are, which may require using the whip, "jerking" up on their head with the lines, all while using the same verbal cue I would while at their head, "HEAD UP!" Using a contraption might "solve" the problem, but when the check comes off, you will find that you really haven't taught your horse anything.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 11, 2010)

Myrna, Karla ground-drives her horses around the neighborhood in a halter and surcingle to give both her and the horses something fun to do but has no interest in putting them to a cart or teaching them how to carry themselves. All she's trying to do is keep their heads out of the grass long enough to have some fun, not create a disciplined competitor. Shafts are never going to be involved!



In that circumstance I see no problem at all with using a sidecheck as an anti-grazing rein. So what if it's a prop? It works and does the horse no harm if it's a sidecheck configuration with reasonable slack.

I have to use one on Kody sometimes when going back to work in long-lines in the spring because he gets downright sneaky about suddenly dropping back so there's slack in the reins and then diving before I can take up contact again. No amount of whipping or yelling as he hits the brakes will get his head up in that circumstance because he simply decides that one stolen bite is worth it.



He'll move on as soon as he's ripped off a good mouthful but it's a pain trying to stop him. One or two sessions with a sidecheck on is self-correcting as the minute he dives he gets a sharp jab in the mouth while I get after him with the whip and voice and he rarely tries it again. He never does it in the cart because he can't suddenly drop away from my contact and get enough slack to try it and is more than smart enough to know the difference. He loves his work and it only takes that brief reminder that my verbal cues are backed up physically to get him to settle down but Kody, like your older gelding, is a "give a mouse a cookie" type.



If I don't bring him up sharp at the beginning it gets out of hand; if I do, it never becomes a problem.

Leia


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## barnbum (Jan 11, 2010)

Leia-exactly. Thank you.



The loose side check was the answer for Jazz, and it'll be the answer for the others.



All I needed to remember was to add the crupper for now and I would not have had a question.


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## RhineStone (Jan 11, 2010)

Well, considering that other people that may have the same "problem" read this forum, I still stand behind our methods.



I was just working my mom's mare tonight, remembering when I started her a couple of months ago, and that her nose was on the floor of the arena smelling the wood chips ALL THE TIME.



I really had to get after her to convince her that wasn't acceptable, but now no putting nose on the floor. She is all business and listening MUCH better. We line drove her in a halter and also a bridle. She has been put to the cart twice now. No nose on floor. She "nose" it's not allowed!



She really responds well to positive reinforcement, but first I had to establish that I was the boss. She is SO much more enjoyable.

I see way too many people "trying" to even just walk their horses in a halter and lead, while the horse is dragging them around trying to sneak bites. Since so-called "experts" decided that we shouldn't spank our children, that has carried over to some people's horse training.



Now, I have heard of well-known and respected driving trainers (of all horses, big and little) spending lots of time during clinics convincing novice whips that they CAN discipline their horse, and SHOULD, as it is dangerous to have a spoiled brat in front of you.

There wasn't enough information on this thread to determine WHAT Karla was going to be doing with her horses, I could only pick out bits and pieces. I'm not saying that Karla (or anybody else here) has spoiled horses



, since I don't know her at all. But I do know that I see lots of spoiled horses out there, especially minis! I was trying to find a nice way to say, "Don't be afraid to discipline them, you won't hurt them, they are not 6 mo. old human babies."



Just because they are little does not mean they are fragile. Let your horses know when they do something right, but by golly, be the "alpha" when they don't!





Off my soapbox. Glad the crupper is going to help. Hopefully, the rest of the information helped somebody else.


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## Katiean (Jan 12, 2010)

When I was training last year even when I took him into the round pen to work a bit before I put the harness on him, he would drag his nose on the ground because that is what his owner let him do. Anyway, I added a crupper to the surcingle and put him in an open bridle. I then added loose side reins. He couldn't reach the ground with them. He began to work and not figure he was out there to play. He was a super little gelding (and I am not partial to geldings) right up to the point his owner let the dog bite him.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 13, 2010)

Funny story about grass grabbing: I was in a reinsmanship class at a pleasure show in a grass ring which had been mown rather long. We were asked to do a walk across the diagonal on a long rein. My little horse Rocky immediately stretched down into the bit and was doing a lovely long walk when right in the middle of the ring he took the opportunity to grab a mouthful of grass which he carried with him for most of the rest of the class! The judge still gave us first place and commented to me in the line up, "those little guys are just built too close to the grass aren't they!"


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## barnbum (Jan 13, 2010)

That is a cute story, Lori.


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