# Lethal White Colt.........NOT



## Indy's mom (May 11, 2009)

Hi Everyone!






I do have permission to post this from the owner!!

My great friend and mentor, Judy, from Tiz A Miniature Horse Farm ( a long time, well respected breeder of fine horses), had a colt born about a week ago that is PURE WHITE!!!!! No color anywhere, no pigment, nothing!!!! He has pink skin and blue eyes. They of course thought they were dealing with a lethal white when he was born!

Well, here he is almost a week later and he is gorgeous and healthy! He's a wildman too! Introducing "Tiz White Lightning".





Can anyone explain this and has anyone ever seen this before!!!??? I thought ALL pure white foals were lethal(?)

~Tammy





















His 30" sire, Bear Branch Painted Feather


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## Songcatcher (May 11, 2009)

I think the easy explanation is that there are multiple patterns at work that simply erased all the color. Maximum experssion Sabino possibly. It is possible (although I think unlikely) that the foal does not even carry Frame.


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## shelly (May 11, 2009)

OMG-He is gorgeous!!!!! Maybe he is just a *MAXIMUM* SABINO? Congratulations TIZ!!!!


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## sedeh (May 11, 2009)

I'm so glad he turned out not to be a lethal white!!



I'm sure his owners were worried sick when he first arrived! He sure is pretty!


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (May 11, 2009)

Yep, max white sabino more than likely, and probably has splash going on as well.. Possibly frame as well depending on what the parents are/would test..


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## Littleum (May 11, 2009)

Not all "all-white" foals are LWO. There's a difference between a LWO and an "all-white".

The only reason to be worried about LWO is if both parents carried Frame. If neither or just one parent were frame, there's nothing to be worried about.

Non-LWO all white foals aren't fully understood, but it's generally believed to be max sabino expression, but darned if they've fully figured it out yet.


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## Indy's mom (May 11, 2009)

Thanks everyone, seems to be a pretty easy explanation! BUT how does one know at the time of birth whether it's a LWO or just a white horse? (if you have no testing history on the mare or sire [ I am speaking of my rescue mare, not this little guy]) Is there a physical sign that lets you know either way if the foal is ok? I have read that if the white foal poops then they are fine, is that the only thing? So if you have a pure white foal you need to wait and see if it nurses and poops to be sure? God, that must be a long wait!

Tammy


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## kaykay (May 11, 2009)

Lethal White foals will usually show colic symptoms within a few hours of nursing.

I suspect this guy is one of those very rare overos that carries every color pattern thus made him white. So he could be carrying lethal white, splash, tobiano, sabino. They are usually 100 percent color producers. Do look inside the ears though sometimes there will be little spots of color in there


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## targetsmom (May 11, 2009)

I am so glad that it turns out that this gorgeous guy is healthy!!!

Edited after Indys Mom's post was edited: Why would anyone have to panic seeing a white foal if the sire and dam were tested for LWO? Just a gerneral comment, not meant to imply that this owner had not tested.


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## Indy's mom (May 11, 2009)

kaykay said:


> Lethal White foals will usually show colic symptoms within a few hours of nursing.
> I suspect this guy is one of those very rare overos that carries every color pattern thus made him white. So he could be carrying lethal white, splash, tobiano, sabino. They are usually 100 percent color producers. Do look inside the ears though sometimes there will be little spots of color in there


Thank you Kaykay!

And yes, the owners have looked in every nook and crannie! lol

Tammy


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## Indy's mom (May 11, 2009)

Oooooo, I didn't mean to imply that the owners of this little guy have no testing, I was speaking of MY sabino mare that is a pregnant rescue that I have no history on!! (I'll go fix that in my reply)

Thanks

Tammy


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## lil hoofbeats (May 11, 2009)

Oh That is easy to explaine, he is a sabino white, and could carry frame as his mother is. His mother is frame /sabino.

We have had several babies born here that were solid white with blue eyes. They were not Lethal overos either. He is a pretty boy!!!!


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## Bunnylady (May 11, 2009)

Indy's mom said:


> Oooooo, I didn't mean to imply that the owners of this little guy have no testing, I was speaking of MY sabino mare that is a pregnant rescue that I have no history on!! (I'll go fix that in my reply)Thanks
> 
> Tammy


Tammy, unless your mare looks like she's gonna drop that baby in your lap today, you probably can get her tested before the foal arrives. If your mare is LWO-, that'll be one less thing that you have to worry about!



If she's LWO+, then you'll know that it's still on the table, but even if the sire is LWO+ as well, the odds are 75% in your favor for a foal that isn't a lethal white.


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## Becky (May 11, 2009)

I've had several solid white foals born here. All were either maximum sabino or maximum splashed white. Scarey seeing a solid white foal, but if the sire/dam are tested LWO-, then one can breathe easier!


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (May 11, 2009)

Judy is awesome, isn't she!!!! I have a Tiz Colt!






This white colt is awesome!!! Nobody will be able to find him in the snow! He is GORGEOUS!!!!! Congrats to TIZ!!!!!


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## HGFarm (May 11, 2009)

Yes, a friend has one.... he has color inside of one ear or something silly but the rest of him is white. He has done well in the show ring and has now sired a lovely frame baby! Congrats to your friends on a healthy happy baby!

And yes, they better get him a neon orange colored sweater for trips out in the snow, LOL


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## Joanne (May 11, 2009)

The dam, as Julie at Lil Hoofbeats said, is a frame sabino pinto.

I would love to see photos of the sire. My guess is that he is a tobiano or splashed white.

Here are my two "white" horses. I knew they were not Lethals as I had tested both sire and dam before breeding them and one of the parents was not a lwo in both cases.









The first one is a two year old colt, the second a two year old filly. They were born just days apart.

Each are genetically carrying three pinto genes (Frame, Sabino, Tobiano).

Both are also HOMOZYGOUS FOR BLACK !!

Though they are phenotypically "white" horses !!

As KayKay mentioned, these horses are a powerhouse of color. Producing color nearly 100 % of the time when bred to solid horses.


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## nbark (May 11, 2009)

Hi Tammy,

Lethal whites come from overo paints, this is a genetic flaw from cropping out. If an overo has the gene and is bred to another overo that also has the gene, you produce a lethal. The lethal's are born with the intestines split into two sections, not connected together, which is why they call it lethal. They are too young to operate on and they don't survive. This is what I was told by Tufts when my Paint mare had a lethal. I bought her bred and discovered after the foal was born that this was the second one she had thrown from the same stud. I still can't understand why a breeder would rebreed to the same stud after having one lethal. Mine had to be put down at four hours old. He looked perfectly normal, but inside was a different story. So from what I was told, this only happens in Paints, not pintos, not minis, not ponies, but I am not a breeder, only know what I was told by the vets at Tufts and this was about 15 years ago, so things could have changed since then.

Nancy


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## nbark (May 11, 2009)

Just looked up overo lethal white syndrome, there is a really good report on it. Just google overo lethal white. It does occur in other breeds now, so I stand corrected on the info that I was given some years ago.


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## Songcatcher (May 11, 2009)

nbark said:


> Hi Tammy,
> Lethal whites come from overo paints, this is a genetic flaw from cropping out. If an overo has the gene and is bred to another overo that also has the gene, you produce a lethal. The lethal's are born with the intestines split into two sections, not connected together, which is why they call it lethal. They are too young to operate on and they don't survive. This is what I was told by Tufts when my Paint mare had a lethal. I bought her bred and discovered after the foal was born that this was the second one she had thrown from the same stud. I still can't understand why a breeder would rebreed to the same stud after having one lethal. Mine had to be put down at four hours old. He looked perfectly normal, but inside was a different story. So from what I was told, this only happens in Paints, not pintos, not minis, not ponies, but I am not a breeder, only know what I was told by the vets at Tufts and this was about 15 years ago, so things could have changed since then.
> 
> Nancy


Sorry nbark, but your information is very WRONG. Lethal white can occor in many breeds, including Minis. LWO (Lethal White Overo) is the gene that causes the Frame pattern. You are correct that when the foal gets the gene from both parents, it is lethal (hence the name). Horses can easily carry this gene without it showing visually. Since your experience 15 years ago, a test has been developed and this syndrom can be avoided by simply testing and making sure two LWO positive individuals are not mated together.

Edited: I guess I was typing as you were making your second post.


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## Becky (May 11, 2009)

> this only happens in Paints, not pintos, not minis, not ponies


Oh, how I wish this was true, but it simply isn't! LWO exists in virtually every breed of horse! There are many, many documented LWO horses in Pintos, Miniatures, Shetlands, QH, Paints and others. With the advent of the DNA test using mane/tail hair, every breeder breeding pintos (or even those not) are encouraged to test all breeding pairs so the heartbreak of a LWO+ foal doesn't happen.

It takes one LWO parent to produce the stunning frame overo pattern, but breeding two LWO horses together is simply playing Russian roulette!


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## Indy's mom (May 11, 2009)

Someone asked to see the sire, here he is! This is Bear Branch Painted Feather (yes I have permission)! (it's the best pic I could find at the moment)

Thanks for all your explanations! I always thought that if you had a pure white foal it was absolutely lethal! Glad I asked!!

Tammy


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## Dona (May 11, 2009)

As many others have already pointed out......a pure white foal that is NOT a Lethal White is not all that uncommon.

It also doesn't mean that they will always be a high color producer. You can get all white foals from simply being a Max White Sabino or a Max White Splash. They may only carry Sabino or Splash in those cases, and that is what they will throw.

I once had a Max White Sabino mare who was pure white with dark eyes. She tested homozygous for Sabino, homozygous for Black, and homozygous for Silver. She was negative for every other color or pattern. So the only foals she could produce were Silver Dapple Black Sabinos, or Silver Bay Sabinos (if bred to a horse carrying agoute). She usually threw foals with solid bodies and a blaze & socks.


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## Meavey (May 12, 2009)

Indeed LWO doesn't restrict to a breed it can happen in any breed or cross-breed.

It is a color pattern not a breed-thing.

And BTW Lethal whites mostly have alot of white, hence the name, but they CAN have color too!


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## Doobie (May 12, 2009)

Not sure why but Im not able to see the foal pics or the sire pics!!!

Would love to see


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## Indy's mom (May 12, 2009)

Doobie said:


> Not sure why but Im not able to see the foal pics or the sire pics!!! Would love to see


Hmmmm, maybe try signing off and then trying again, sometimes my computer does that! If that doesn't work, PM me and I'll send you the pics!





Tammy


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## shadelady (May 12, 2009)

Bear Branch Painted Feather's sire ( Stonehenge Painted Feather) is a Rowdy Grandson on his dams side. He has thrown some amazing colours over the years, and Bear Branch have a son for sale at the moment who is completely white except for a tiny medicine hat. One of the reasons that we invested so heavily in the Bear Branch stock over here. We have two Painted Feather daughters due to foal to a silver appy Del's Cowboy grandson this week. Anyone want to hazard a guess on those colours lol


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## Margo_C-T (May 12, 2009)

Questions for those of you who really study this (I do not)--

Wouldn't the colt posted about likely have splash, because of the blue eyes?

And- what is a PURE white horse with dark skin and fully dark eyes likely to be, genetically? I grew up around friends whose dad, a former world champ bronc rider, then trick rider, owned THREE full siblings (his single trick horse, a mare, and his Roman riding pair, geldings)-- half-Arabians , all of whom were pure white with dark eyes and dark skin--NOT cremellos, NOT perlinos, NO color. Later, these same folks bought a QH mare who was the same--pure white w/ dark eyes and dark skin. What do the parents need to be to produce this? I know that the QH(not registered, because of AQHA 'policy' in those days....) was a daughter of WADDY JOE, who was a son of LITTLE JOE THE WRANGLER, both fully registered QHs--and both 'solid' bays, appearance-wise. Never knew anything about the parentage of the half-Arabians.

Margo


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## chandab (May 12, 2009)

Margo_C-T said:


> Questions for those of you who really study this (I do not)--
> Wouldn't the colt posted about likely have splash, because of the blue eyes?
> 
> And- what is a PURE white horse with dark skin and fully dark eyes likely to be, genetically? I grew up around friends whose dad, a former world champ bronc rider, then trick rider, owned THREE full siblings (his single trick horse, a mare, and his Roman riding pair, geldings)-- half-Arabians , all of whom were pure white with dark eyes and dark skin--NOT cremellos, NOT perlinos, NO color. Later, these same folks bought a QH mare who was the same--pure white w/ dark eyes and dark skin. What do the parents need to be to produce this? I know that the QH(not registered, because of AQHA 'policy' in those days....) was a daughter of WADDY JOE, who was a son of LITTLE JOE THE WRANGLER, both fully registered QHs--and both 'solid' bays, appearance-wise. Never knew anything about the parentage of the half-Arabians.
> ...


Sabino does occur in Arabians, so perhaps they were Max white Sabinos. They also could have been gray, gray Arabians are often solid white with dark skin and eyes (and many go gray very quickly). I don't know if max white sabinos have to be pink skinned or not, and they don't necessarily have blue eyes. It'll be interesting to see what others have to say.


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## MBhorses (May 12, 2009)

i couldn't see the photos for some reason


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## Indy's mom (May 14, 2009)

I just had to post these new pics of Lightning!!!! I think he is gorgeous!!!!



Congrats Judy and Larry!

Tammy


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## Songcatcher (May 14, 2009)

Beautiful indeed!


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## MBhorses (May 14, 2009)

wow

what a nice looking colt.

what color are his parents? I would love to see his parents.

he is so cute.



I better he could throw you nice colored foals


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## Dona (May 14, 2009)

chandab said:


> Margo_C-T said:
> 
> 
> > Questions for those of you who really study this (I do not)--
> ...


A pure white horse with DARK skin, could not be a Max White Sabino....as they will always be pink-skinned. A White horse that has dark skin, has to be a horse that started out some color, and then turned gray. Gray is a very common color in Arabians.


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## headintheclouds (May 15, 2009)

WHAT A BEAUTY!!! HE LOOKS LIKE A FAIRY TALE HORSE!


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## Genie (May 15, 2009)

Wowser..........he's something else


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## Indy's mom (May 15, 2009)

MBhorses said:


> wowwhat a nice looking colt.
> 
> what color are his parents? I would love to see his parents.
> 
> ...


His parents are posted, can you see them or are you still having trouble?

Tammy


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## MBhorses (May 15, 2009)

wow

i love his sire? i have always like the bear branch paint horses.

i couldn't see the dam photo.

love the sire.they can send me that nice colt


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## MiniHunterHorseFan (May 15, 2009)

Could he be an albino? If anyone has ever seen the old old movie Thunderhead: Son of Flicka, there is a wild stallion that looks exactly like Lightning and they call him The Albino.


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