# Miniatures have a BRINDLE STALLION !



## WTFFarm (Oct 31, 2009)

Gosh, this little guys color has confused me since the day he was born, just a couple of weeks ago I said he wasn't brindle - even though every day when I look at him I swore he was.

Well the confusion is over. I submitted a load of pictures over the past couple of weeks and just felt a big sign of relief when I got e-mails back sayinig "yes"

Ozymandias is a brindle.

Of course I'm very excited about having my suspicions confirmed and am going to register him as brindle.

What pushed me over the top was a thread a few weeks ago concerning Marbles. Her stripes show really well with her roan body color where Ozy's coloring is almost red on red (bay) but if you could see him, you'd see that his marks are identical to Marbles and of course there's the Komokos Little King Supreme relationship there too which may be coincidence but it's a very big coincidence that his line has produced two such rare coat colors.

I was doing some research and came across this web site with pictures of confirmed brindles with IDENTICAL markings to Ozy. I can't describe my excitement when I saw these horses and I knew instantly that I had an answer to what Ozy's marking are. They're calling them "seasonal" brindles because the color of the stripes is so similar to the body color (just like Ozy) that they are mostly visible during the summer months when the horse is shed out. Just like Ozy, the owners of these brindles report that the stripes sometimes just look like a "bad clip job" and each year they develop more. These "seasonal" brindles are "real" brindles, can produce brindles, their brindle stripes are just harder to see because of their base color which is something I've been saying about Ozy all along.

Here's a few links that show some of these horses...

http://www.brindlehorses.com/battyatty/webped/one.htm

http://www.brindlehorses.com/l3l13/charact...tics/season.htm

if you look at the red bay brindle on this page you'll see how hard it is to see the brindle on a similar base colored coat.

http://www.brindlehorses.com/l3l13/charact...cs/coattext.htm

I don't know if I'm more excited that he's a brindle or that I finally have a solution to the nagging "feeling" that all along he has been one lol. You know how it is when you just want an answer lol.

I have to thank MiniV with all my heart. Not only is Ozy very special but he's my equine soulmate too. I melt every morning when he smootches me lol






My next move will be to round up a nice small herd of blue and red roan mares next spring. If I can find ones with Supreme lines I'd be extra thrilled



. After seeing how the two roan brindles marks show I'd really like to breed Ozy to roans to produce highly visible brindles. It would be nice to see a bunch of brindle mini's out there and having a stallion makes that more possible. I'd love to share this unique color with others.

Well thanks for letting me share my excitement


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 31, 2009)

That's really good news, but you do know that there is NO way to tell by looking at a photograph exactly what colour or pattern a horse is, and there is no way of telling, more importantly, from a photograph whether or not your boy would be able to sire Brindles.

To be able to tell this, and it would be well worth your while doing, you will have to take samples from his stripes and his base coat and have him tested for Chimerism, as if he is a Chimera he will not pass the pattern on whatever sort of Brindle he is.

At the moment all that is known about Chimeras is that there are two sorts, I had never heard of the seasonal theory, but would warn you that it is just that and before you start accumulating roan mares it would be wise to test him.


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## WTFFarm (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks for the advice Rabbitsfizz. You have a good point. I'd never given chimera a thought (sure hope he's not lol)

I was hoping you'd spot this post because I thought of you when I heard he was brindle as you've always shown an interest when I've posted about him before (under "miniwhinny") and I know you've very knowledgeable on color and patterns.


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## Riverdance (Oct 31, 2009)

I would love to see a picture of him shaved down.

As we spoke before, I have a bay filly with those strips on her too. She too comes down from the Komoko Little King Supreme lines, but her stripes are hard to see and seem to disappear as her coat grows in, as well as when she is first shaved down. Then a few days after clipping, the strips show up, then disappear again when the coat gets longer.

When Marbles was discovered with her first clipping, I spoke to Jon Eberth about Komoko King Supreme. He said they had never gotten the brindle pattern when using him for breeding. Yet people on this forum who have had some brindling in their horses, all say they come down from the Supreme lines.

Marbles is a double up on King Supreme as is the bay filly (though she is not as closely line bred as Marbles is). I have a couple of foals coming in 2010 who are really closely line bred. They are palominos though, so I am not sure that one would see the brindling even if it is there.

I have quite a bit of the Supreme line here as I own a daughter (Marbles dam) a grandson, (Windchaser, Marbles sire) , five granddaughters (one the dam of the bay filly) and quite a few great and great great grand kids. I have been breeding this line for several years and Marbles is really the first. Plus her dam has had two other full siblings (both I lost) that where just palominos. Though, to be honest with you, neither one was ever shaved down as one died the day she was born, the other died at 4 months old. So who knows if there was some brindling going on underneath their coats. Perhaps I will have to keep Marbles dam and repeat the breeding every year with hopes of getting another one.

Marbles and the bay filly are the first I have gotten with brindle type markings. I still do not consider the bay a brindle, but more of a smutty bay where they smuttiness has gone into lines.

When reading about brindles, Marbles does have the different textured coat, the bay filly does not.

I am not one to breed for color, as conformation is very important to me, but I may just try some experimenting to see if the brindle pattern would come out more often.

You might want to contact Celiia Penedo of the University of Californi Davis and have samples sent to her. She is the one who said Marbles was a true Brindle (possibly a chimera, though so far the testing says not). That way you will have a more accurate idea of what your boy is.


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## WTFFarm (Oct 31, 2009)

Thanks Riverdance





Yep that hair texturing seems to be one consistant trait from everything I've read and been told.

I'm 100% with you on not breeding just for color too. If Ozy didn't have a combination of awesome conformation, perfect bite, straight legs, great bloodlines and a perfect disposition I would never give breeding a second thought. Lucky he's "all that and a bag of chips" lol


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 31, 2009)

COngrats... I am glad to hear I know there have been actually quite a few brindle minis that is exciting to have something so different


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## Miniv (Oct 31, 2009)

Danna,

I am so HAPPY that your suspicions and feelings about Ozy were TRUE!

One thing you may want to look into is not just Komoko King Supreme in Ozy's background, but Supreme's dam AND Ozy's dam's pedigree. But we can talk about all that privately.

Just wanted to add........



And thank you for taking the time to do the research!

Maryann


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## WTFFarm (Oct 31, 2009)

Miniv said:


> One thing you may want to look into is not just Komoko King Supreme in Ozy's background, but Supreme's dam AND Ozy's dam's pedigree. But we can talk about all that privately.



Thanks MiniV, I remember the first time I saw him the morning he was born at your place. Being a huge fan of duns I couldn't for the life of me figure out how a non dun had all those strong shoulder bars.

(e-mail me your ideas now you've got me wonderiing lol



).


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## susanne (Oct 31, 2009)

Ah...I wondered who belonged to that cute bouncing elephant...

I'm glad you've delved further into Ozy's coloring and submitted photos. This is all so fascinating, including the relationship of the brindle coloring and the bloodlines.

I'm curious now as to how many types of brindle are out there, and how many are simply dismissed as bad clipping or whatever. If other color patterns vary so greatly, might not brindle vary just as widely, and might it not hide on other colors? (Such as Marbles' palomino sisters?)

I'll be watching your breeding results with Ozy and Riverdance's with Marbles, and any others out there. I assume someone is searching for genetic markers for brindle...but for now it's a fascinating mystery.

BTW...we had a bumper sticker on our old van that read W T F, but I don't think it was referring to your farm...


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## WTFFarm (Oct 31, 2009)

With the top pole vaulter in the Central Valley Conference, a dirt biker who never stays on the ground and mini's who never seem to walk anywhere "Where They Fly" seemed the perfect fit for the farm name I've searched for



.

Susanne, I'm very sure the brindle pattern gets hidden. Just like cream can be seen as palomino and buckskin (what I equate to brindle pattern on roan background - very visible) you get cream on black and you get smokey black - just like brindle where the stripes are a similar color to body color. Doesn't change the genetics, does change the visual presentation. Talking to an owner of other seasonal brindles (harder to see colors) they say are producing other brindles so the genetics are there.


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## Royal Crescent (Oct 31, 2009)

> Well the confusion is over. I submitted a load of pictures over the past couple of weeks and just felt a big sign of relief when I got e-mails back sayinig "yes"
> Ozymandias is a brindle.


I was just wondering if it is Celia Penedo of the University of California Davis that you submitted to? You did not really say who looked at the pics, and I am curious what kind of comments she made, if it is her. Are you going to submit all the hair/blood samples to to check on chimera?





Barb


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## WTFFarm (Nov 1, 2009)

I haven't contacted Celia Penedo just because I didn't think there was a test for brindle. I may contact her and send her some hair samples but probably not 'til the spring. I really hope he's not a chimera. I highly doubt it because they are so rare. It would be nice to be able to produce a few more. I do want to contact other breeders (full sized horses) to see what colors they are breeding to show the markings...I'd say roan because the body looses it's color but the stripes don't. Yesterday I was all gungho about getting more mares but I'll really have to give breeding some thought. There's a huge contingent of folks on this message board whos horses are their life with showing, breeding, marketing (visiting this message board 24/7) lol etc but I'm not there - my TWO (lol) ponies are my pets



and my lawnmowers.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 1, 2009)

SUPER!!! I always thought him to be one, nice to know it has been confirmed.








It is going to be very interesting in the next several years to see if these horses pass this on to at least a foal or two.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 1, 2009)

what Farm said:


> Susanne, I'm very sure the brindle pattern gets hidden. Just like cream can be seen as palomino and buckskin (what I equate to brindle pattern on roan background - very visible) you get cream on black and you get smokey black - just like brindle where the stripes are a similar color to body color. Doesn't change the genetics, does change the visual presentation. Talking to an owner of other seasonal brindles (harder to see colors) they say are producing other brindles so the genetics are there.


Do not confuse _Pattern_ with colour.

Colours can hide but patterns always express, and, although it is possible that Brindle is an exception to this rule, I do not think it is likely. So starting from the premise that Brindle does not hide, there is no reason why we should not be able to see the 50% of Brindles that inheritable Brindle should throw. Yet we are not.

There is something else going on here, I am certain.

When Champagne and Pearl were 'discovered' they _exploded _[ (although I accept that these are colours and, by my own maxim, a different kettle of fish!) Brindle is still rare.

Get him tested, find out if he is inheritable or Chimera, I know it will make no difference to the amount you love him, but it would be interesting!!!



what Farm said:


> I haven't contacted Celia Penedo just because I didn't think there was a test for brindle. I may contact her and send her some hair samples but probably not 'til the spring. I really hope he's not a chimera. I highly doubt it because they are so rare. It would be nice to be able to produce a few more. I do want to contact other breeders (full sized horses) to see what colors they are breeding to show the markings...I'd say roan because the body looses it's color but the stripes don't. Yesterday I was all gung ho about getting more mares but I'll really have to give breeding some thought. There's a huge contingent of folks on this message board whose horses are their life with showing, breeding, marketing (visiting this message board 24/7) lol etc but I'm not there - my TWO (lol) ponies are my pets
> 
> 
> 
> and my lawnmowers.


 There is not a test for Brindle, there is only a test for Chimera. Testing negative for Chimera does not mean the horse is a Brindle, but since yours has been identified as Brindle, testing for Chimera would help.

Come on over to

http://forum.equine-color.info/

and talk about him, we will give you all the help that we can, and learn something ourselves at the same time!!


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## Jill (Nov 1, 2009)

W-T-F, I didn't know you'd changed your forum name.

Congrats on confirming Ozy is the color you always thought he was.


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## WTFFarm (Nov 1, 2009)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Get him tested, find out if he is inheritable or Chimera, I know it will make no difference to the amount you love him, but it would be interesting!!! There is not a test for Brindle, there is only a test for Chimera. Testing negative for Chimera does not mean the horse is a Brindle, but since yours has been identified as Brindle, testing for Chimera would help.
> 
> Come on over to
> 
> ...



Thanks for the invite, I'll come on over



. Also I will get him tested...guess you never know until you find out.

I don't think I was clear in my explanation of the color..I also don't think you can hide the brindle marks. They're either there and seen or they're not. I think some colors show the expression more than others. Like on one of those website links that I posted where there is a brindle red bay and also obviously on Ozy. The author of those web pages told me that her "seasonal" brindles (I think that's her way of saying that their markings show in their summer coats and not in their winter coats) are throwing the same patterns. I will come visit your color forum because I'd love to bounce some ideas off people.

I used to breed duns. I found that when I (and a friend doing the same) added a dun carrying the smutty gene that we got really wild stripes. It was as if the addition of smutty enhanced the dun gene - just interesting as it's believed smutty is involved in brindle.


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## WTFFarm (Nov 1, 2009)

Jill said:


> W-T-F, I didn't know you'd changed your forum name.
> Congrats on confirming Ozy is the color you always thought he was.


Thanks, it's just nice having the puzzle answered.

Oh and it's WTFFarm NOT W-T-F



! Guess you can call me WTFF for short. Maybe I'll sign back in under "miniwhinny" as I have that account still registered lol.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 1, 2009)

There we go....move Nellie to miniwhinny. Now everyone confusing wtfFARM with w_t_f can relax hahahhahaha Oh what dirty minds y'all have


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## Jill (Nov 1, 2009)

Well, it is such "common" internet lingo, you can't look at that other name and not think it. Besides, it's always good to "know" members for their long standing LB names... but then of course I'm talking from the perspective of someone who's "Jill" here and in real life





Anyway, again, I'm glad Ozy's color / pattern is now "official" and you yourself had it correctly identified all along


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## miniwhinny (Nov 1, 2009)

Jill said:


> Besides, it's always good to "know" members for their long standing LB names... but then of course I'm talking from the perspective of someone who's "Jill" here and in real life


Yeah, your right, I'm pretty used to miniwhinny anyhow and when you think about it I really don't need a farm name...don't breed, don't show and only own two lawnmowers


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## Jill (Nov 1, 2009)

I like that full farm name, Where They Fly... I know you have birds and thought there was a tie in there. Either way, I think it's a neat name w/ an "unfortunate" intials


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## albahurst (Nov 1, 2009)

WTFFarm said:


> I haven't contacted Celia Penedo just because I didn't think there was a test for brindle. I may contact her and send her some hair samples but probably not 'til the spring. I really hope he's not a chimera. I highly doubt it because they are so rare. It would be nice to be able to produce a few more. I do want to contact other breeders (full sized horses) to see what colors they are breeding to show the markings...I'd say roan because the body looses it's color but the stripes don't. Yesterday I was all gungho about getting more mares but I'll really have to give breeding some thought. There's a huge contingent of folks on this message board whos horses are their life with showing, breeding, marketing (visiting this message board 24/7) lol etc but I'm not there - my TWO (lol) ponies are my pets
> 
> 
> 
> and my lawnmowers.


Well, keep us all posted!

Who do you recommend sending pics to in case I have one I would like evaluated someday?


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Rabbitsfizz....

we were wrong.

the brindle pattern can hide but the genetics are there ! This stallion is NOT a brindle...he is out of a seasonal brindle mare. He shows no pattern BUT when "test" bred to non-brindle mares he has produced seasonal brindles 50% of the time.

http://www.brindlehorses.com/battyatty/webped/punky.htm

(I am coming to your color site...just been so busy)


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## MindyLee (Nov 2, 2009)

*Not sure if this could be... BUT I have a KING SUPREME SON who is double bred King Supreme and also is a smutty buckskin with roaning. HE looks brindle also big time. He also has different shades of coloring throu-out his body and looks really kool.* I want folks to see his photos but cant figure out how to post soooo if someone could, email me and i'll give some examples for all to see and see see what you think.

[email protected]


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Send me his picture I'd LOVE to see it and POST if for you ...this is SO AWESOME.

just emailing you my addy


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## madmax (Nov 2, 2009)

I own the black roan brindle mare. Her sire is a grandson of a full brother to Komokos Little King Supreme, and there are 2 links to him, so she has a connection as well.

King Supreme is listed in the stud book as solid bay, but he was a bay roan. He sired many many roans.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Madmax...I'm SO happy that you've posted. I wondered if your mare had any Supreme blood. I think it's pretty obvious that the connection HAS to be coming from Komokos Little King Supreme with all of the brindles and suspected brindles showing him in their lines.

Just like the link I posted above...it seems that brindle does NOT have to show to be carried.

This is so exciting.


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## Riverdance (Nov 2, 2009)

madmax said:


> I own the black roan brindle mare. Her sire is a grandson of a full brother to Komokos Little King Supreme, and there are 2 links to him, so she has a connection as well.
> King Supreme is listed in the stud book as solid bay, but he was a bay roan. He sired many many roans.



I was going to e-mail you to see if King Supreme was in your mares background. It seems that these bar striped horses, brindle striped horses and heavy smutty horses are coming from the Supreme background. Yet, the whole time he was alive, Little King Farms never had any brindle markings from him. They also may not have done much doubling up on him as they did with Buckaroo. His line connected well with the Buckaroo stuff and they did more Buckaroo crosses with him rather than doubling up.

I think the doubling up on him is perhaps starting to produce brindles.

As I mentioned before, I probably have one of the biggest concentration of King Supreme than any other farm, as I like the body refineness,length and refindness of neck as well as a pretty head. I have been getting this from his grand get.

I saw King Supreme the first year Little Kings Farm had their auction. He was a very dark bay roan. My guess is that he had quite a bit of smutty in him as many of his get do. Windchasers sire does as does Windchaser. I truly feel that the smutty gene has a lot to do with the brindle markings.

I just started to do more line breeding with his line, thus I got Marbles and a filly that is a smutty bay with stripes, though I do not consider her a brindle as the stripes come and go depending on her coat length. I have a few foals due this spring that are double ups. My stallion, Desperado, is a great grandson (on one side) of King Supreme. He has been bred to several Windchaser daughters. Windchaser is a grandson of King Supreme. He has also been bred to Marbles dam, but I am not sure if she took or not. She does not look that big at this time. Next year she will probably go back to Windchaser.

Getting back to the smutty gene. I feel if one wants to try and breed for brindle, they should start with the King Supreme line and also choose horses that have the smutty gene too. The dam of Marbles is a King Supreme daughter, but is only a red roan, no smutty coloring that I can see. Windchaser is a grandson of King Supreme and he is quite smutty. To the point where for a few years, we where not sure what color he was. I have one of his daughters now (Wings) who is just as smutty as Windchaser was as a foal. But she is also a buckskin, so perhaps in the future she would also be a candidate for producing brindles.

I love genetics and this to me, is becoming fun. Sure wish I was younger and had more years to play around with this.


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## MindyLee (Nov 2, 2009)

Hey Riverdance, too bad your too far away, I think if we bred my King Supreme son to you KS daughter... WELL I wonder what would be the outcome on that foals color??? I think it would be pretty interesting! Or breed him to Marbles in the future also...

I too am a King Supreme fan as I love the confirmation, color, and attitude (everything). Out of 7 minis on my farm, 4 are King Supreme bred upclose...

1 double bred KS son

1 g-daughter with x4 crosses

1 gg-daughter with x2 crosses _(Buckeroo g-daughter)_

1 gg-daughter with 1 cross _(Buckeroo g-daughter)_


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 2, 2009)

mini whinny said:


> Rabbits Fizz....
> we were wrong.
> 
> the brindle pattern can hide but the genetics are there ! This stallion is NOT a brindle...he is out of a seasonal brindle mare. He shows no pattern BUT when "test" bred to non-brindle mares he has produced seasonal brindles 50% of the time.
> ...


At the moment I am HIGHLY suspect of this sort of claim....sorry, but it is in my nature!!

Occam's razor again, why would Brindle be different from every other pattern known?

Simplest answer is, "it isn't it follows the same rules as every other pattern" so I shall reserve judgement for the moment on that one.

I have long suspected "Supreme" of being 'more' than a Roan, it is interesting that this pattern seems to be linked to him, in Minis.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Here's MindyLee's stallion - just got these pictures from her to post. I also LOVE Supreme - his genes are so strong that even the grandget and great grandget inherit the refine bodies and beautiful heads.

MindyLee - your stallion is gorgeous.

I'm not nearly an expert enough to tell the difference between roan striping and brindle striping but like Riverdance seems to be picking up on...I am wondering if the combination of roan striping combined with the smutty gene brindling is producing the really heavily marked brindles?


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## Riverdance (Nov 2, 2009)

> Hey Riverdance, too bad your too far away, I think if we bred my King Supreme son to you KS daughter... WELL I wonder what would be the outcome on that foals color??? I think it would be pretty interesting! Or breed him to Marbles in the future also...


Try some doubling up closely and see what you get. The experts told me to breed Marbles back to her sire if I really want to try and produce Brindles. I may have to do that with Wings too. The markings that stand out the most are on a roan coat. But in the big horse world, they show up strongly in just about any color coat.

*Guys, I am looking for pictures of Minis that have these stripes in a shaved down coat for an article I am doing*.

From what I am learning, these stripes are either in the skin or in the coat. If they are in the skin, they are brindles, or perhaps want to be brindles(if only a few stripes) that may be able to produce brindles.

MindyLee, your boy looks like he may have potential as he seems to have some stripes on his neck. When you shave him, do these stripes show up even stronger?

Madmax, I have the pictures from you, both clipped and long coat. Your girl hides the markings in her winter coat, but shows them strongly when clipped. It will be interesting to see if Marbles keeps her markings all winter. She will grow a whole lot longer coat then yours in Florida.



But, so far, at an inch long, it is still very well marked and heavely textured.

So far too, I have not found any horses with the markings in their manes and tails or on their face like Marbles.

I will be talking with Cecelia Pendido from the University of California Davis more in the future for this article. She specializes in brindles and chimeras. So, let me have the picutres to send her. Madmax, you have already done the testing and find that she is a brindle and not a chimera. As, so far the same holds true for Marbles.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I have long suspected "Supreme" of being 'more' than a Roan, it is interesting that this pattern seems to be linked to him, in Minis.



Rabbitsfizz...I love your attitude





Hey does anyone have any pics of Supreme that you are allowed to post other than the one you seem to see all the time? I'd sure like to see some pics of him other than that side on shot.


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## MindyLee (Nov 2, 2009)

miniwhinny said:


> Here's MindyLee's stallion - just got these pictures from her to post. I also LOVE Supreme - his genes are so strong that even the grandget and great grandget inherit the refine bodies and beautiful heads.
> MindyLee - your stallion is gorgeous.
> 
> I'm not nearly an expert enough to tell the difference between roan striping and brindle striping but like Riverdance seems to be picking up on...I am wondering if the combination of roan striping combined with the smutty gene brindling is producing the really heavily marked brindles?


*THANK YOU!!!* He is just a great boy and so handsome and very lucky to have him. All these photos even the ones that where professionaly taken where just pulled from the field givin a bath and cleaned up his face a little. He's always a head turner at the shows as well.

I HAVE 3 DIFFERENT PHOTOS OF KING SUPREME, JUST NOT SURE IF IM ALLOWED TO HAVE THEM POSTED.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Riverdance said:


> *Guys, I am looking for pictures of Minis that have these stripes in a shaved down coat for an article I am doing*.
> From what I am learning, these stripes are either in the skin or in the coat. If they are in the skin, they are brindles, or perhaps want to be brindles(if only a few stripes) that may be able to produce brindles.


Riverdance,

according to Sharon Batteate who breeds brindles - she's found that the hair textuing is a common trait amongst her seasonal brindles (those with traits seen clearly in summer coats but not in winter coats)...when I mentioned to her that Ozy has this texturing even when in his finest summer coat it seemed to be a dead give away. The horses she has that have this are producing more brindles so it has something to do with the gene.


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## albahurst (Nov 2, 2009)

So what experts are out there that we should send pics to to see if what we have are brindles or not?


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

What's the rules on posting pics found randomly on the web? 'Cus someone just e-mailed me a photo of a mini or a Scottish shetland pony with white brindle stripes.

Albahurst if you have a brindle or suspect you have one post please post it so we can all take a look.

Here's what Dr. Sponenberg says in his book "Equine Color Genetics"

"Brindle seems to require sooty (a.k.a. smutty) black countershading for it's expression, and reorganizes sootiness (smuttiness) into vertical stripes instead of a more uniform sprinkling of hairs"

While I agree that the smutty is reorganized into stripes....I'm confused....and I wonder if infact TWO different color patterns are being given the same name....smutty/sooty is exactly that...DARK shading which as I can see in Ozy has manifested into stripes it's very obvious that he's smutty...then how on earth do you explain the picture of the mini I have that has white brindle stripes?


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## albahurst (Nov 2, 2009)

> Who do you recommend sending pics to in case I have one I would like evaluated someday?





> Albahurst if you have a brindle or suspect you have one post please post it so we can all take a look.


Due to the fact I have this line of breeding here at my farm, I simply wanted to know where one would send photos, so that we all can benefit.

I would prefer to send photos to an expert.

So, I am assuming from the comments posted here that there are no other experts in this field that anyone here knows about except the one at UC Davis and maybe Dr Sponenberg. Thank you- that answers my question.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

albahurst said:


> > Who do you recommend sending pics to in case I have one I would like evaluated someday?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm not sure that there are any "experts" other than at Davis it seems it's a pattern that's just not that well known and there are variations in how it's expressed. Some patterns like the two roan brindle mares are very obvious - I don't think they need any help in knowing they are brindle. Some like Ozy's and the horses people seem to refer to as seasonal brindles are way harder. If you have one like that I'd be getting opinions from everyone who can tell you more about your "type"...if for example the registries, Sponenberg, other breeders are all saying yes your horse has the characteristics then at this time that may be all the answer you get. Two things will tell you for sure...a) if a test for brindle comes out or b) if your horse passes it on. Like one of the Batty Atty horses - the only way he was confirmed to carry brindle (to his owner) was by producing other brindles...he didn't even have vertical stripes to start with!


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## Riverdance (Nov 2, 2009)

> Two things will tell you for sure...a) if a test for brindle comes out or b) if your horse passes it on. Like one of the Batty Atty horses - the only way he was confirmed to carry brindle (to his owner) was by producing other brindles...he didn't even have vertical stripes to start with!


Most horses parents do not have the brindle stripes. Mine do not, yet they produced a brindle. That does not mean they are carrying the brindle gene.

It seems that the Minis are not quite following what the Quarter Horses are doing. In the Quarter Horses, there are quite a few brindles and they have been breeding them for quite some time. You can see brindle stripes on them regardless of what color they are. Many of these horses will lose their markings in a long coat, but will have them when they shed out. I should say that they are not lost, just beneath the longer coat that covers the markings.

In the Miniature World, so far, I have come across a chestnut pinto with some white stripes on its back, a bay that has some strips on its neck and bars on its shoulders, but is not clipped down, the mare in Florida and Marbles in Miniature horses. The mare in Florida is clipped down as is the chestnut pinto and Marbles.

According to what I have learned so far from experts in the field, including the brindle registry, is that a brindle will have the markings in their skin, not just on their coat. That is why I have asked for clipped pictures. The markings in the skin also give the horse the different coat texture which is very obvious even in a longer coat. Below are pictures of Marbles when her coat was over an inch long. As you can see, she has quite a bit of texture.

If one has a pinto or an Appaloosa, those markings are in the skin, not just on the coat. An Appy may lose some of its markings as it coat gets longer, only because the markings are being hidden by the length of coat. The markings are still there. When one clips down a pinto or an appaloosa, the markings are still there, just like a true brindle. When one clips down a sooty/smutty horse, much of the smutty/sootiness will disappear, only to reappear once the coat starts coming in.

There are horses out there that have bars and some stripes that can be shaved off. I have one of them, and that is just a manifestation of the smutty gene. The bars in a coat are more primitive and can be seen in a true dun, but some smutty/sooty horses will have some of those primitive markings too. Smutty horses can and do produce bars on their shoulders and may even have some stripes, but when shaved, they all come off.

By the way, MindyLee sent me the pictures of her stallion and in some of them you can see some stripes in the neck area. Then she sent me pictures of him when he was shaved down and the stripes are gone. Classic manifistation of the smutty/sooty gene.

Below are pictures of Marbles textured coat when it was over an inch long. By the way, her markings are in her skin. I could see them when she had a raw butt from her surgery. Plus where she had been shaved with a 50 blade for surgery and the fact that I have clipped her down with a 15 blade.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Riverdance said:


> > Two things will tell you for sure...a) if a test for brindle comes out or b) if your horse passes it on. Like one of the Batty Atty horses - the only way he was confirmed to carry brindle (to his owner) was by producing other brindles...he didn't even have vertical stripes to start with!
> 
> 
> Most horses parents do not have the brindle stripes. Mine do not, yet they produced a brindle. That does not mean they are carrying the brindle gene.


Oh no of course not...that horse I was talking about is from a brindle parent.



Riverdance said:


> According to what I have learned so far from experts in the field, including the brindle registry, is that a brindle will have the markings in their skin, not just on their coat. That is why I have asked for clipped pictures. The markings in the skin also give the horse the different coat texture which is very obvious even in a longer coat. There are horses out there that have bars and some stripes that can be shaved off. I have one of them, and that is just a manifestation of the smutty gene. Smutty horses can and do produce bars on their shoulders and may even have some stripes, *but when shaved, they all come off*.
> 
> By the way, MindyLee sent me the pictures of her stallion and in some of them you can see some stripes in the neck area. Then she sent me pictures of him when he was shaved down and the stripes are gone. Clasice manifistation of the smutty/sooty gene.


Oh now I see why you want shaved down pictures. I was a little confused before as to what you wanted..you want to see them naked to the skin to see if the skin retains the color. You can't shave off his stripes. I don't shave my horses (no reason to - don't show) but the first year I had him I just couldn't wait to see what his stripes were going to look like under his winter woolies so I shaved his neck and shoulders...I didn't shave them off, they were there.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Riverdance,

just so we can see can you post pics of the smutty mare with the stripes that you have?


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## Riverdance (Nov 2, 2009)

By the way Miniwhinny, I was not talking about your boy, but a horse in the Netherlands that is bay with some stripes and bars.

My bay mare has quite a bit of coat right now and the strips do not show up that much. She is like Mindylees horse. There when her coat is longish, but not too long and gone when shaved. Pictures of her will have to wait till next spring too.

They showed up this summer as I was showing her and clipping her. That is when I noticesd them, but they do shave off.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 2, 2009)

Riverdance said:


> By the way Miniwhinny, I was not talking about your boy, but a horse in the Netherlands that is bay with some stripes and bars.


Oh that's okay kiddo



I have nothing to gain but the knowledge of what's going on - (he's not for sale - not being marketed and doesn't stand to outside mares). Just my "pet" and I'm just interested in what he is. I've bred many duns and a number with smutty but I've never seen a non dun (nor had Sponenberg) with markings like Ozys that didn't go when shaved and stayed (though not as clear, in his winter coat) It's very clear with Marbles and the other roan brindle mare that they are brindles - true classic brindles. Just a few weeks ago I still didn't know what was going on with Ozy. Sponenberg left me without an answer - he said that he'd never seen anything like Ozy,that he was very interesting...said he had stripes where he'd expect to see them (for brindle) but left the conversation open with him not saying he was a brindle and not saying he wasn't



It wasn't until a few weeks or so ago when I saw the "seasonal brindles" when I started seeing markings like Ozy's. That's why, even to this day, I openly state and wonder if there are two or three (counting smutty stripes, roan stripes and brindle stripes) patterns/genes/colors and each can change or influence another. Like I've said before, I've found consistantly that if you combine dun with smutty you can throw some awesome stripes. Who knows...I'm just rambling lol. Time to go feed


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## Riverdance (Nov 2, 2009)

I think we are going to find that the Mini brindles are not like the Quarter Horse Brindles and possibly will not be able to reproduce like them. They are producing brindles without the smutty gene it seems. Take the chestnut brindles.

So far, any brindle or brindle types here in the states all come down from the Komoko Little King Supreme line. They seem to have the smutty/sooty gene too. Or at least one of their parents did. Two also have the roan gene which makes it stand out even more. Only one, Marbles, has it on her face, legs, mane and tail. So far, there are only possibly three in the US. Only one has the potential of being bred, as the others are with owners who do not breed.

I did contact the AMHA registry to make sure there where no other brindles registered, or if they had heard of any others. Only mine and madmax.

The one in New Zealand that is a chestnut pinto with white stripes, that one is totally different.

The Brindle registry told me about the two overseas.


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## midnight star stables (Nov 2, 2009)

Jill said:


> I like that full farm name, Where They Fly... I know you have birds and thought there was a tie in there. Either way, I think it's a neat name w/ an "unfortunate" intials












HAHAHA! Jill that made my night!

Pretty boy, MindyLee





Riverdance, I LOVE Marbles



She is SO cute. Those fuzzy winter pictures are too cute


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## Riverdance (Nov 2, 2009)

Hey guys,

I have been doing more brindle research tonight for my article and came across a site that posted horses that where not considered brindles. The sooty/smutty gene with the bar stripes and even striping is not considered a brindle. Nor is the roan with even spaced stripes.

I looked at Madmax's mare Lullaby and her roan stripes are not evenly spaced, nor are Marbles.


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## MindyLee (Nov 3, 2009)

I just think that all this info has been very helpful to me as Sentra looks somewhat brindle. BUT now when someone asks about his unique coloring I can give them a right answer of what his markings are, and from the correct genes. I am lucky to think that he maybe able to produce the rare brindle pattern if bred to the right mare in the future also. It sure would be nice to unwrap a little Marbles in the future too! Thanks for clearing up and helping me out with Sentra's color and understanding the difference between brindle and primitive markings are Riverdance. Keep up the great research you have done as I have been following this topic since you 1st posted with newborn fuzzy photos of Marbles BEFORE you found out her color!

Also Thank you to miniwhinny for helping me post my photos of Sentra and giving me the info that you have also provided about this rare gene!

I think even no matter my Sentra's color is... I am the luckiest person in the world to own such a handsome little man with such a great pedigree that is known through-out the world. He is one of the last to be born before King Supreme passed on and he will always be the heart of my breeding program as his sire King Supreme & Buckeroo is to the Little King farm...


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## madmax (Nov 3, 2009)

While we are talking about seasonal brindling, here is some information about my brindle mare, Lullaby, showing that she keeps her stripes in the winter.

Even tho we are in North Florida, we are still in the Northern Hemisphere, and my horses grow the typical thick double coats.

Lullaby in her winter 'buffalo' black appearing coat; note the gray hairs showing in her flanks and next to her bridle path.






Lullaby in a fresh, CLOSE show clip for a winter show. The markings are not as strong until the clip recovers a bit, but show that they remain no matter the season.






A closeup of her neck area taken at the show (my 4 yr. old granddaughter showed her.)






By the way, I LOVE Sentra! Beautiful. I would send photos of him to UC Davis, Ms. Penedo. I sent photos of my horse to her, she instantly replied with great interest, and requested the hair and blood samples for her to test.


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

Madmax,

Her coloring does fade when clipped, I am surprised as Marbles markings gets even stronger when clipped. Plus even as her coat is getting longer, as you can see in the above textured shots, she is still showing all of her markings, just a bit hairier with more texture.

Your mare is losing alot of her markings when clipped, my guess is she has more of the smutty/sooty gene going on in her markings.

When doing my research, their talk of seasonal brindles referred to foals that where born with no markings but later on developed markings. Then the markings would show up as they got older and depending on the season. Ones that had markings at birth where not considered seasonal.

They also talked about horses that where not considered brindles. Bays with bars on their shoulders with even strips where considered not to be brindle as well as roans that also had the even strips. They also talked about how the rump of true brindles had vertical flank stripping as well as swirls over their hips. A quote from them is: "*Brindle has drippy striping and the striping is not regularly spaced like dun factor striping. Brindles often have a swirl over the hip. Brindles often have vertical flank striping, which is not usually seen with other dilutions or with sooty striping."*

They said that a true brindles color does not fade or disappear when clipped. I hate to say it, but Miniwhinny, your horse shows more of the characteristics of a sooty/smutty bay with the bar strips and more evenly spaces strips. Which they consider not to be a brindle. Cool markings, but not a brindle.

Madmax, I will have to see more pictures of your horse freshly clipped down. The one where she is with your granddaughter, the markings are almost gone. The tighter I clip Marbles, the more her markings show up.

I have had several phone conversations with Cecilia Penedo of the University of California Davis, who is probably the top specialist for chimera and brindling in horses. She has lectured throughout the world, written or has been a part of several articles about chimera and brindles too.

She has been so kind in answering many of my questions with this research I have been doing with Marbles. So far, I have not found any other Miniature horse out there that comes close to her markings. Madmax, yours has been the closest. One other has some brindle type markings. He is in the Netherlands (went back to my notes and found he was in the Netherlands and not in New Zealand as I noted before) That boy is a chestnut pinto with white strips. Interestingly, it has been noted with my research that a white striped horse has never gone on to produce a brindle. The quote from that article is: *"Most horses with white striping...are the result of chance errors that occur in the developments of the pigment system of the embryo. These horses will not reproduce these strips."*

By the way your granddaughter is ADORABLE!!! Sure wish I had one. I have 3 grandsons who are not interested in horses. Just trucks, trains, Star Wars and all boyish things.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 3, 2009)

Riverdance did you find out 100% that you mare isn't chimera...her pattern is so different?

Riverdance - When I sent pics to Sharon (author of the web site you're showing) who breeds seasonals she told me that Ozy fits all the criteria of being seasonal...hair texturing, stripes that have been added each year and stripes over the hips. The stripes on his withers and sides weren't there last year !


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## madmax (Nov 3, 2009)

Riverdance, this is a photo of Lullaby, recent close clipped.This summer, she was getting sun bleached (excuse mane and forelock) so I brought her up and bathed and clipped. Yes, she is not as vibrant when close clipped, but the stripes are there,to me, as long as they remain summer or winter, she cannot be a seasonal brindle- they never go away and have been there since a foal. I need to read up on sooty, etc., that I do not have a grasp on. Does not that have to correspond with dun?


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

Miniwhinney,

We may never know about Marbles being a chimera. I am still waiting on other testing being done with her. Right now all tests show she is not, but we will know for sure if: She produces a brindle or if her parents produce another one then she is a brindle, or if she produces a foal that does not match her DNA, then we will know for sure she is a chimera.

Her pattern matches the description for a brindle, but then so do chimeras. The more tightly I shave her, the more her markings show up. As her hair grows out, it is still marked like that, only more curly. It will be interesting to see what she has in her full winter coat. The older she gets, the more vibrant I expect her markings to be as her color comes in more darker and richer.

I do not remember coming across a full size horse that has all of those strips in their face, ears, legs, body, neck and mane and tai the way Marbles does. I sure wish that I could get pictures of her that really show her markings. She is so much more unusual in person.

Madmax,

The smutty/sooty gene can show bars, primitive markings, even strip markings and other strips on a horse. When clipped they tend to fade out more or go away totally, though the primitive markings tend to stay. Then as the coat grows back more, the markings come back stronger in color. They will get more and more of these strips as they get older too. Brindle strips do not seem to disappear as yours does with length of coat either. Marbles coat is already longer than your mares and as I said, the markings are still there.

I have also mentioned that I have a smutty/sooty bay mare who started to get strips on her neck and shoulders this year as a yearling. They disappear when she is clipped, then come back and show up more at a certain coat length, then disappear again as her coat gets longer. Since she is not a roan, they do not show up as strongly as your roan. Perhaps your roan is more like that.. only with a lot more strips.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 3, 2009)

Riverdance,

I'm only going on what they look like when shaved from what you've said...and I'm not expert but I'd say 1000% that Madmax's mare Lullaby IS a brindle for sure. How can there be any doubt?! Just look at her markings even in a shaved down state.

Madmax - smutty a.k.a. sooty has nothing to do with dun. Duns can also have smutty, non duns can have smutty. Its a color modifyer that adds black hairs into the coat. The majority of times these dark hairs are spread out amongst the coat but it's thought that in brindle something else acts to influence the hairs into stripes (that's where Ozy's thrown a lot of people - smutty has turned into stripes on him) It's believed that brindle is a modification of the smutty gene and that it reorganizes the usual random black hairs into lines.


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

I do not know as I am not an expert, but much of her markings seem to fade out or disappear when shaved. Madmax says her color gets stronger after a couple of days past being shaved. In the picture with her granddaughter the markings on the neck are all gone. This would tend to say that the smutty/sooty gene was working here. To me, when all of her markings are showing, she defiantly looks brindle. But when first clipped?

I am not sure what Cecilis Penedo told her, she did send her pictures and samples to her. She told me that Marbles was a brindle if not a chimera.

Again, Marbles markings get more intense when she is shaved.

As for the smutty gene playing a part of being a brindle, yes and no. Many of the Quarterhorse brindles do not have smutty parents.

Still, as I have said, maybe Marbles is not a brindle either, but a chimera and the Miniature World still does not have any true brindles.


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## MindyLee (Nov 3, 2009)

*Is Lullaby King Supreme bred???*

Also is it me or am I seeing a dirty nose on my boys head shot???!!! *WT*! I tried so hard to keep him from putting his face in the dirt, guess he still managed it somehow! lol

Thanks for all the nice comments about Sentra everyone!


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## miniwhinny (Nov 3, 2009)

MindyLee said:


> *Is Lullaby King Supreme bred???*


yes, it was a page or so back..she too has Supreme. Coincidence...or popular bloodline...who knows just seems strange all these striped horses have him as a connection.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 3, 2009)

Riverdance said:


> In the picture with her granddaughter the markings on the neck are all gone. This would tend to say that the smutty/sooty gene was working here.
> Still, as I have said, maybe Marbles is not a brindle either, but a chimera and the *Miniature World still does not have any true brindles.*


Riverdance. I gracefully beg to differ. Just go back a page...Lullaby DOES have stripes all over her neck in the pic with the granddaughter - clear as day. I'm not sure why you want to try to prove that Lullaby, the horse in the Netherlands (or wherever) Ozy (but he's always on the fence unless he produces them) and the other one aren't brindles? That's what your above comment says...it says that if Marbles is a chimera then there are no brindles....but Riverdance even if you rule out Ozy, and the one with white brindle stripes, and the one in teh Netherlands and the one in Australia...just LOOK at Lullaby I don't see any difference between her and Marbles. I'm not trying to stir trouble..I just don't understand what you're seeing, please tell me.

Also from all the research I've read about it IS smutty that creates the brindles. You keep saying they're "just" smutty - well "just" smutty would be random black hairs...not hairs organized into stripes?


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

> Riverdance. I gracefully beg to differ. Just go back a page...Lullaby DOES have stripes all over her neck in the pic with the granddaughter - clear as day. I'm not sure why you want to try to prove that Lullaby, the horse in the Netherlands (or wherever) Ozy (but he's always on the fence unless he produces them) and the other one aren't brindles? That's what your above comment says...it says that if Marbles is a chimera then there are no brindles....but Riverdance even if you rule out Ozy, and the one with white brindle stripes, and the one in teh Netherlands and the one in Australia...just LOOK at Lullaby I don't see any difference between her and Marbles. I'm not trying to stir trouble..I just don't understand what you're seeing, please tell me.
> Also from all the research I've read about it IS smutty that creates the brindles. You keep saying they're "just" smutty - well "just" smutty would be random black hairs...not hairs organized into stripes?


I am not trying to rule out Lullaby. I have always thought she was a brindle till I saw the shaved picture of her neck with her granddaughter.

Case in point. I have a buckskin colt who is a yearling this year. This summer he got a great big circle on his neck (the size of a plate) that is dark and must be a smutty spot. It will not go away. When clipped it is there, but not as strongly as it is when his coat has had a day or so to grow back. Then it seems to go away or is harder to see when his coat gets longer. The smutty gene at work. I do not call him a pinto just because he has this big spot/circle on him.

On other forums on Lilbeginnigns people have posted pictures of palominos that got very smutty with smutty spots as yearlings, and they wanted to know what happened. Again the smutty gene at work with spots and circles rather than strips.

I am now wondering out loud if Lullaby is doing the same thing only with strips. It is not to say she is not a brindle. But I would be interested to hear what Dr. Penedo said.

The one with the white strips is in the Netherlands, not in New Zealand as I first said. I just quoted what I read about white strips from one of the brindle sites. That they can not reproduce themselves and may be a embryo malformation.

So far, not one Mini that has strips has produced another brindle. We know based upon the research that the white one can not. You and Lullabys owner do not breed and so far, I have not found another striped Mini anywhere. Just another one who had bars and even strips on its neck that was not considered a brindle.

By the way, Marbles does not seem to have any smutty/sootiness to her yet, though that may change next year. Other foals born from Windchaser where born with the smutty markings.


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## miniwhinny (Nov 3, 2009)

heheh so complicated








So here's what we'll do....we'll all meet in the middle...call them ALL striped equines and then we'll see if any of them produce more. Maybe then we'll know what we have for sure





I guess until a test comes out (if one ever will) that tells us why smutty rearranges itself into stripes and which of those stripes are to be called brindle then the only way to go is to try to reproduce the pattern from these "suspected" horses.





Just want to update some information - Posted about Ozy on the "Equine Color Info" forum that Rabbitsfizz posted about and Brindle seems to be the "diagnosis" for his markings there too


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## madmax (Nov 3, 2009)

sorry, accidental double post


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

> So here's what we'll do....we'll all meet in the middle...call them ALL striped equines and then we'll see if any of them produce more. Maybe then we'll know what we have for sure


They have to be called striped horses, as they are striped. The big question is can they re-produce themselves?



> I guess until a test comes out (if one ever will) that tells us why smutty rearranges itself into stripes and which of those stripes are to be called brindle then the only way to go is to try to reproduce the pattern from these "suspected" horses.



It is not just the smutty gene that re-arranges itself but something else that is going on. In the Arabian World the striped Arabians are the ones that are flea bitten grays. So the graying gene is playing a part with their strips. Also, I have not come across an Arabian that has reproduced itself either.

It has been stated several times in the articles that certain smutty markings/strips are not brindles.

I truly feel based upon my research, that unless a horse can reproduce itself, it is not a true brindle, but perhaps a chimera or some other genetic malformation.

There are many chimeras that are also considered brindles, but without being able to reproduce themselves, they are just a very rare, very beautiful one of a kind.


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## madmax (Nov 3, 2009)

On PAGE 6 I posted a photo I took of Lullaby IMMEDIATELY after a bath and clipping this summer of 2009. Her brindling is obviously there, it has not DISAPPEARED, and the photo of her taken in the darkness of the interior show ring DOES show her markings. Also, on the same page, the 'after' photo was taken the day before the show, and I believe it is apparent to see many stripes dripping down her body.

Marbles is a beautiful extrodinarily marked individual, especially since she has stripes of more than one color that affect her whole body, however because of her very unusual brindling, I do no think she can be held to a standard of what a brindle is supposed to look like.

Ceclia Penedo confirmed Lullaby is a brindle, and she was color tested to be a black roan, no cream, no grey, no silver.

I hope more mini brindles will be discovered by this forum discussion.

Thanks everyone, and have a good day.


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## Shaladar (Nov 3, 2009)

This is a very interesting thread!

Is my computer picking up the markings different than other computers? Because on the picture of Lullaby with the grand-daughter, (who is adorable !!) the stripes clearly show and they continue up into her mane. If you follow the stripe, it goes into the mane and the mane color is the same color as the stripe.

I have one that I am on the fence about.....it is probably a sooty gene working, but it has stripes....very faint, so I am pretty sure it is not a brindle. I have not gotten this horse color tested yet , this horse appears to be a chestnut, and is registered as such, but I am betting on silver bay.

Anyway.....very interesting thread !!

Sue


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

-



> Ceclia Penedo confirmed Lullaby is a brindle, and she was color tested to be a black roan, no cream, no grey, no silver.


Good, that is nice to know. I was never saying that she wasn't just thinking out loud as her markings seemed to fade a bit with being shaved. It could also just be the pictures making her look that way.



> Is my computer picking up the markings different than other computers? Because on the picture of Lullaby with the grand-daughter, (who is adorable !!) the stripes clearly show and they continue up into her mane. If you follow the stripe, it goes into the mane and the mane color is the same color as the stripe.


Maybe that is the problem as my computer is not picking up the strips which disappointed me, because I felt that she had lost them with the clipping.



> Marbles is a beautiful extraordinarily marked individual, especially since she has stripes of more than one color that affect her whole body, however because of her very unusual brindling, I do no think she can be held to a standard of what a brindle is supposed to look like.


I am not holding Marbles to a higher standard for a brindle, as I am not sure she truly is one. Only time will tell. I am again, thinking out loud about all of these different variances.



> I hope more mini brindles will be discovered by this forum discussion.




I hope so too, as then we possibly have a chance of producing future brindle Minis.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 3, 2009)

"If one has a pinto or an Appaloosa, those markings are in the skin, not just on the coat. An Appy may lose some of its markings as it coat gets longer, only because the markings are being hidden by the length of coat. The markings are still there. When one clips down a pinto or an appaloosa, the markings are still there, just like a true brindle. When one clips down a sooty/smutty horse, much of the smutty/sootiness will disappear, only to reappear once the coat starts coming in."

And, of course, with a fading App[y or a Greyed out Pinto, if you make them wet, you see pink skin and dark skin...

RD, why do you not simply test Marbles for Chimera??

Easy enough......


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

> RD, why do you not simply test Marbles for Chimera??Easy enough......


Marbles has been tested and it has been posted, even in this post, that so far she is not testing out as a chimera. So far they have tested her blood, her mane and tail hairs of different colors. Then I sent a second set of tests in, a nose swab, more mane and tail hairs as well as different colored body hairs and am waiting for those results.

Also, just because they are not finding a second set of DNA, does not mean she is not a chimera. We may never know. She may only have some internal organs that have a different DNA, or, when she has a foal, the foal may not DNA out as her being the dam.

If she has a foal with brindle markings, then we know she is not a chimera but a true brindle.


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## bellaleo (Nov 3, 2009)

i just rescued a pinto who has several colors that look kind of brindle withen his spots. His tail is also at least 3 shades and is kind of striped looking. He also has a dark strip that runs down his spine you can only see it in two spots. the photo is of the spot on his back . Its looks like a heart. what do you guys think?


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## Riverdance (Nov 3, 2009)

bellaleo said:


> i just rescued a pinto who has several colors that look kind of brindle withen his spots. His tail is also at least 3 shades and is kind of striped looking. He also has a dark strip that runs down his spine you can only see it in two spots. the photo is of the spot on his back . Its looks like a heart. what do you guys think?



It is not unusual for a Mini, especially a chestnut Mini to have some different colors in his tail.

The heart shape is cute, but I do not see any strips in the red coat. He seems to have a sharp ridge down his back, indicating he needs some groceries. Feed him up and in the spring clip him down and we will have a better idea of what he looks like.


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## Royal Crescent (Nov 3, 2009)

Thanks Sue for sharing your research with us. It is all very interesting. Remember all, this is a discussion. Don't get your hackles up. Have fun with the topic as it has been here on and off since before Marbles!





Barb


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 4, 2009)

Sorry RD I did not see your post....if you send hair from her stripes and hair from her body they would be able to test to see if the hair had different DNA, I am not sure that the tail hairs count, although they are used for normal DNA testing they are not used in Chimera testing, as I understood it, I am pretty sure it has to be the body hair.

Nor would nasal swabs help, except for categorising, and other useful, technical things that scientists love doing



The more info they get the bigger picture that can build.


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## Riverdance (Nov 4, 2009)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Sorry RD I did not see your post....if you send hair from her stripes and hair from her body they would be able to test to see if the hair had different DNA, I am not sure that the tail hairs count, although they are used for normal DNA testing they are not used in Chimera testing, as I understood it, I am pretty sure it has to be the body hair.Nor would nasal swabs help, except for categorising, and other useful, technical things that scientists love doing
> 
> 
> 
> The more info they get the bigger picture that can build.



Dr. Cecilia Penedo, the Chimera/brindle specialist from the University Of California Davis is the one who has had me send in all kinds of samples. Including the nasal swab, mane and tail hairs and blood samples. I am the one who suggested the body hairs. She is the one who told me that body hairs are hard to get roots with, so we used a hemostat to pull the body hairs of the different colors.

Short of taking internal samples, there is not much more that we can do. She told me that we may never know unless Marbles has a foal that does not match up with her DNA, or she has a brindle foal. She is the one who told me to breed Marbles back to her sire as that will be my best chance to get another brindle if indeed she is a brindle.

So, evey test that Dr. Penedo can think of to try has been done. When the results of the last tests come in, I will be sure to post.


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