# Can a mare show signs of heat if in foal?



## MBhorses (Oct 2, 2006)

We have a mare we breed last month to our stud. She was fine until this week. She has show signs of being in season, but will not stand for the stud.This mare has shown in heat for three days now. But when we try to breed her, she wouldn't stand still. Could she be in foal and show signs? When we breed her last time, she kick some, but would stand for him. I want you all to know this is her first time to be breed. What all can I do to see if she is in season or breed. If she is not breed then we would like to breed her. Any ideals on this one.

thanks melissa


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## MBhorses (Oct 2, 2006)

Also forgot to say that the stud was not that much wanting the mare either. I haven't had them act like this before.Both the mare and stud are wanting to kick each other. The mare is urine for the stud(what is up with her), but she want stand still. The stud was not bringing it out, it you know what i am saying(he was just not really).This mare and stud were breed last month, it has been about 26 days since we last breed them. She has shown signs for three days.

thanks melissa


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## MBhorses (Oct 2, 2006)

ANYONE ON THIS THREAD KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT MARES SEASONS.

HELP US PLEASE.

THANKS MELISSA


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## Jill (Oct 2, 2006)

I am really pretty new to breeding minis, however, I do know this time of year is tricky and some of my mares seem to be in strong heats longer than normal, but I think they may be false heats.

I have seen VERY pregnant mares wink and tease and act like they are in heat when they are very obviously pregnant. I don't know if one that was bred a month ago would be teasing or truly back in heat. I think that the closer into fall we get, if they are not already pregnant, it can be hard to get them in foal until the following season.

Again, I am far from an expert in this at this point, but if she were my horse, I would probably be thinking she likely didn't take last time and is having one of those weird early fall fake heats.

PS two of my new horses came from your neck of the woods in Brandon, MS from the Harrells -- a silver dapple mare and her silver buckskin filly and I just LOVE these two girls


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## Dona (Oct 2, 2006)

Not only will some still show signs of heat after in foal...but they will also allow the stallion to breed! I once had a mare who was bred in the spring, and then every 3 weeks or so, she'd come back into season & allow the stallion to breed....all summer long. Then the next spring, she'd have a foal from the very first breeding.



:

I would always allowed them to continue to breed, because I never knew "for sure" whether she was in foal or not. She did this every year.



: Thankfully....this is not the "norm" for most mares.

This was way back before Pregnamare was widely available....and I just judged whether they were pregnant or not, by when they stopped coming into season.


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## MBhorses (Oct 2, 2006)

HELLO,

THANKS FOR YOU ALL HELP.

JILL YOUR FILLIES SOUND NICE.

THANKS MELISSA


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## appypintolady (Oct 2, 2006)

MB, a book that gives alot of info on the care and breeding of horses is " Blessed are the Broodmares".

It has really helped me and it does discuss this issue of them going back into heat after being bred and in foal. I would suggest you read it if at all possible as it is invaluable and will aswer alot of questions.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Oct 2, 2006)

never, Never, [SIZE=36pt]NEVER [/SIZE] let a stallion breed a suspected-pregnant mare. Two reasons: first, if semen enters her uterous, she'll get placentitis and abort. Second, the act of breeding causes her to release oxytocin and prostoglandin F2alfa, which kills the CL and aborts the mare. If you don't want a vet to come out to do the check for you, at LEAST learn how to do a speculum exam. If her cervix is closed, DO NOT let her breed, unless you just don't care if she aborts.


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## Lauralee (Oct 3, 2006)

Melissa,

MOST mares do not accept a stallion while they are pregnant.

Given the fact that this time of year is not prime breeding season, and this mare was just bred 26 days ago, I would suspect that she is NOT pregnant.

Get with your vet and discuss horse reproduction at length to give yourself a better idea of what to expect while breeding horses. Also the book Nathan mentioned is great.

The only real way to know if she is pregnant or not is for the vet to examine her.

Lauralee


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## MBhorses (Oct 3, 2006)

Hello,

We were not going to allow the stallion to hurt her. When she didn't want to stand for him, we decide to move on. The mares signs she showed was urine at the fence, but that is about all.The studs didn't show signs like they usually do either, the only thing they did was raise their noses in the air. Both the mare and stud was wanting to kick each other. I have been raising the big horses. This year was our first mini foal born. This mare acts different then her mother when it coming time for heat cycles. I have heard that some mares show heat cycles and can still be breed. We have decide to hold off on her. If she don't come in again next month does that mean she might be breed or is it because of winter coming. I read alot of books, but I still learning. I was thinking asking questions from you all who have been there could help as well.We usually breed in march, april, may or june at the latest, but this mare was showing signs later this year.

Thanks MELISSA


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## Magic (Oct 3, 2006)

MBhorses said:


> If she don't come in again next month does that mean she might be breed or is it because of winter coming.




It could very well be because of winter coming. None of my mares are cycling any more this year, at least not visibly. Quite the relief for the stallions, since those junior fillies can really drive them crazy, lol.

If you want to know for sure if she is pregnant or not, it would be best to have her checked by a vet. Or, there are the pregnancy tests you can do at home now. Good luck!


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 3, 2006)

Part of your problem may well be the fact that mares do not come into heat every month, they come into heat every 21 days or less, from the start of their season.

So, if your mare started heat, for example on 5th may she would be due back in season 26th May- give or take a few days depending on the mare.

This means you may easily have missed her season.


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## Dona (Oct 3, 2006)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> never, Never, [SIZE=36pt]NEVER [/SIZE] let a stallion breed a suspected-pregnant mare. Two reasons: first, if semen enters her uterous, she'll get placentitis and abort. Second, the act of breeding causes her to release oxytocin and prostoglandin F2alfa, which kills the CL and aborts the mare. If you don't want a vet to come out to do the check for you, at LEAST learn how to do a speculum exam. If her cervix is closed, DO NOT let her breed, unless you just don't care if she aborts.


That may be true.....but when a mare comes back into season, most would NOT suspect her to be pregnant, figuring she didn't "catch" and would of course breed them again.



:

I can tell you that this particular mare of mine who would breed all summer & then have a foal from the first breeding.....NEVER had any problems foaling her beautiful babies, and never aborted either. Not saying it couldn't have happened...just that it never did. And she wasn't purposely "hand bred" over & over. She just ran with the stallion & they continued to breed throughout the summer.

This was several years ago....and If I still had this mare today, I would probably check her after the first breeding, as I would have seen she had established a "pattern" of catching on the first breeding.

I know...in a perfect world, we would all have our own barn vets & check every mare for pregnancy after each & every breeding. But in all honesty....how many do that? They usually let the stallion tell them whether the mare caught or not.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Oct 3, 2006)

I personally have two problems with that



First, I would never run a stallion with a herd of mares, I've seen too many crippling injuries as a result. I know that many people do without a single problem (and wild stallions have done that for centuries), but you won't ever see me do it. I prefer my stallion to be not injured or worse.

Second, more people should have their mares checked in foal. Twins can cause major problems as well. Is it worth $40 to you? Sure is to me! Breeding a mare in foal is has major potential problems. I would think that people breeding their horses and owning a stallion would be a little more educated in that heat =/= open and how a mare's body works, but that's just my opinion.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 3, 2006)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Second, more people should have their mares checked in foal. Twins can cause major problems as well. Is it worth $40 to you? Sure is to me! Breeding a mare in foal is has major potential problems. I would think that people breeding their horses and owning a stallion would be a little more educated in that heat =/= open and how a mare's body works, but that's just my opinion.



thereis alot of assumption there the first and most important being that everyone has ACCESS to have there mares US to see if they are in foal, or carrying twins ect. however sometimes that is not possible or becomes more dangerous then the need to know.

I am personally not comfortable palpating my mares even though my previous vet showed me how to do it and I have done it before it is something I will NEVER do again ( I did it on a large mare) while it is amazing to feel that baby bouncing around in there there is to many things that can go wrong and one wrong move can kill your mare.

I also personally dont feel comfortable with my vet using a probe for the same reason I think alot of succesful US,palpation is being able to feel when the mare is tensing ect and using what you feel with your instinct. I know many use a probe with great success however again not something I am comfortable with. My vet is over 6 ft tall and certainly not small enough to be able to safely palpate the mares or use US

again this is JMO and what I feel comfortable with.

There are the pregnamare tests though I havent used them but have heard from some they are accurate and others not so I cant say I might give them a try though but i always seem to miss the time frame


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 4, 2006)

Dona and Lisa, I have to agree- for the first part it costs one heck of a lot more than $40.00 to have a mare ultrasounded and I have to truck them an hour journey each way plus I have to arm wrestle the Vet in charge not to sedate them- she has got the message now but it was a hassle and last time when she was wrong on two out of four mares AND one of those pregnancies should have been terminated- well, I gave up.

I have the Royal Veterinary College just two minutes from me, when I first started in Minis over twenty years ago I had a "Contact" in the college who did most of my work at "cost", but nowadays it will cost me over $900.00 as I go through the door!!!

I do not run my stallions but I know many people who do without any problems whatsoever- with me, I just do not like it and I like to keep records and have too many stallions and too little land to be able to do it properly.

At my age, if I had the facilities, I would definitely run at least one stallion, possibly two of them.

I have done AI and natural cover and I have to say I preferr natural cover as I do not have the facilities to check when the mare is ovulating.

The experiences I had with AI under ideal circumstances were very good, but I still did natural cover as well!!

The line I have that comes into season at least three months into their pregnancies will accept cover willingly the first season, with a small objection the second and then refuse the third season, in spite of appearing to be full in season, and none of them have ever come to any harm from it- apart from surprising me, to say the least, when they foaled - until I got the hang of what they were doing.

As said I have NEVER had this behaviour in big mares.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Oct 4, 2006)

Ultrasounds done here cost $25 (so you have to add vet call to that). So $40 isn't a lowballed figure



You can also do transabdominal ultrasounding as well, without the risks of rectal palpation. I know how to palpate too, and you won't EVER see me palpate a client horse. I'm not a vet, and if I make a mistake (which is easy to do) I could be sued for malpractice and practicing without a license. I wouldn't suggest any non-vet do equine palpations, ever.

If you are in a concentration of mini farms, try contacting your local vet schools and asking for a small, mini oriented repro vet and they can send one your way. There is no reason not to have access to these skills, shipping two hours to get to a vet is very unsettling to me. I wouldn't live that far from medical help if I could avoid it!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 4, 2006)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Ultrasounds done here cost $25 (so you have to add vet call to that). So $40 isn't a lowballed figure
> 
> 
> 
> You can also do transabdominal ultrasounding as well, without the risks of rectal palpation.



Again it differs in areas so yes your 40 is quite the low ball figure in many other areas here it is 40 for him to pull in my driveway double that for an emergency. In CA 5 years ago it was 45 for them to appear. He doesnt carry his US equipment with him and would prefer that you come to the clinic so that means taking a broodmare, stressing her while loading and hauling and exposing her to things that are at the cleanest of vet clinics (airborne things from other horses there) for me personally yes there is benefit to having US done and it was great when my CA vet did it for me and even better when I got to do it on a big mare(although very scary scary enough i wont do it again) however for me the risk does outweigh the benifit. They will either get big be bred or not.

When I moved here I realized very quickly that not everyone has vets that are close or competent. It was something I must say I was shocked at coming from So Cal where your options were plentiful.

They also have to have very up to date equipment to do transabdominal US something not all vets have again until I moved something I was shocked at. I am less then a mile away from one of our states surgical centers but..I would take my horse 5 hours + away(and even with that time frame they would have a better chance) before walking thru there doors again that is a whole other story


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## disneyhorse (Oct 4, 2006)

An ultrasound here is $125 to start... we have expensive vet services... $40 won't even START to cover just the vet call...

Andrea


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## Magic (Oct 4, 2006)

Where I used to live, there were several options quite near to me for veterinary services, but even then ultrasounds were expensive and of course they can be potentially dangerous. None of the vets had "mini equipment" and all would have to insert their hand into a mare to US her.

We've since moved to a much more rural area, and I don't have the nearby vets anymore-- EVERYTHING is farther away. And some of the vets here haven't ever even seen a miniature horse before, much less have equipment for minis.

Our reasons for moving were numerous, and so yes, even though there is the downside of not having vets "just down the road" anymore, there are many more upsides than downsides to our new location, so we are going to have to deal with it. Not everyone CAN live moments away from a vet. *shrug*


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## joyenes (Oct 4, 2006)

Hi Mellissa, To answer your question Yes mares can and will accept a stallion while pregnant. Now in a perfect world this wouldn't happen. But the worlds not perfect.I had a mare I tried to breed for three years. Last year again we bred her every 21 days through Sept. Well this April she really started to look fat dispite the fact she wasn't being fed that much. Then we started noticing signs she was in fact in foal. I had my vet come out and confirm she was in foal. On June 21st she foaled a filly. Meaning she accepted very willingly a stallion while pregnant.




:

I just had all my mares ultra sounded to confirm if they are in foal (my cost 25.00 and my vet does have mini equipment and is a female) and the ones open have very small folicals meaning they are closing down for winter and they may show some signs of heat but it won't be heavy like in the spring. It's natures way.So your stallion may pay some interest but it's just not a full blown heat.

Then again she could be in foal but still showing heat signs and as I now call my mare she's a hussy!



:

If you ever need any advice pm me, be glad to share anything I know. Joyce


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## MBhorses (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello,

You all have been so great with all my questions. I figure the more you know the better off you will be. I have had the vet check my big horses to see if in foal, but I have heard of some mares lossing their foals sometimes when a vet check them. What is the safe way to check a mini in foal mare, because they are so much small.

Thanks again for everything you all have done for us.

melissa


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## RockRiverTiff (Oct 4, 2006)

Hi Melissa! I did a poll on this topic a couple weeks ago. It didn't get much of a response, but everyone that did respond had experienced bred mares showing heats. We had one mare here that showed heats through three pregnancies.

As for a safe way to test your mares, I would suggest bloodtesting or ultrasound. The bloodtest we use has a window of time though for best accuracy (beyond that the results are about as good as guessing), but it's totally non-invasive and essentially stress-free for the mare. The nearest ultrasound for us is 2 hours, so that's not always viable. I don't know if it's another one of those "mini things", but the last time we had mares ultrasounded we only had 25% accuracy. So I would check ahead that the facility is accustomed to ultrasounding minis.


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## MBhorses (Oct 4, 2006)

Hello,

We had a mare ultrasound one year vet said in foal and she wasn't.I know vets make mistakes as well. Where would I get a bloodtest kit? Do you have the site?

thanks melissa


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## Gena (Oct 4, 2006)

I have had the same experience as Dona, we did have one mare just like hers, someone told me once that some mares can continue to drop follicles even after they settle, I don't know? Our stallion would not breed our mares unless he smelled the follicle drop, in fact he could be clear across the field and know when this would happen and come breed the mare. There would be days of the mare flirting and winking but until he smelled the follicle he would just throw his head and ignore them until it was time. If we had a mare that was new to being bred our stallion would not let "himself out" until he practiced jumping on her a few times and when he felt she was okay with that he then would let out and breed. He was a gentleman breeder. We have always pasture bred during the summer and had very good luck with most of our mares settling this way. Its possible she settled but also possible she is in heat but the stallion knows her follicle hasn't dropped or is past the time it would have, this time of year here in WI is harder time for them to settle JMO. We usually took the stallion out in September and put him with his gelding buddies. We never vet checked our mares anymore (we used to ultrasound) to see if they had settled, we knew by 6 months we would feel movement if they had. We have never missed a foal being born, we were there for every one. We always knew when our mares were bred and kept careful record of the dates and always watched them very closely when day 300 approaches. I realize and respect everyone does things differently, just sharing what our experience has been and what worked for us



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