# Question about a "short mouth" and bitting



## Marsha Cassada (Jun 5, 2010)

Dusty has been a little silly lately, and holding chewed grass in his upper and lower lips. So I put off driving until we could go to the dentist.

His mouth was fine for a 3 year old, all caps shed. But the vet said he had a very "tight mouth", "tight lips". He showed me that it was hard for a bit to lay properly in his mouth by the molars. He commented Dusty would have a very sensitive mouth--which he, indeed, does.

So, I am thinking to shorten the headstall a hair, and maybe bring the bit up a little. I know a short mouth is a problem with riding horses also. Do you think that is a good solution to try?

Would some other bit work better than the Myler comfort snaffle (it has a roller instead of link) I've been using?


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## Sue_C. (Jun 5, 2010)

According to this study, the Myler comfort snaffle is not a bad choice...but all horses are different, that for sure. From the horse's mouth Part 2



> I am thinking to shorten the headstall a hair, and maybe bring the bit up a little


I am not sure if that would work or not, if he has a short or tight mouth, wouldn't that tend to stretch is lips even further, and get the bit even tighter against his molars?


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## BannerBrat (Jun 5, 2010)

I agree with what Sue said. What I would do is adjust the bit as loose as you can without it being in his canine teeth.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 6, 2010)

The vet pulled his mouth back quite a bit, using his finger like a bit, and showed that the bit wasn't resting by the molars. That is what made me think I might shorten the headstall. But I guess I will just double check and make sure it's not setting on his teeth, and leave it with one "smile" wrinkle.

I wonder if anyone makes a bitless miniature bridle?

I volunteered at an A show last summer. One of the drivers had no bit with his horse. I remember the judges were horrified--but there was nothing in the rule book about it. I wish I had paid more attention to what the horse was wearing. But I didnt' even have Dusty then.

Vet also thought it was probably just being a youngster making him act rather silly.

It's been so darn hot lately, I need to plan my workouts differently for summer. Doubt we will be ready for shows this summer...


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## ThreeCFarm (Jun 6, 2010)

Marsha, on that particular horse, the reins were attached to the noseband of the bridle. I know who the trainer was, and you can also contact Tammi about it as she was the one who drew my attention to it, although she wasn't the trainer of that horse.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 6, 2010)

ThreeCFarm said:


> Marsha, on that particular horse, the reins were attached to the noseband of the bridle. I know who the trainer was, and you can also contact Tammi about it as she was the one who drew my attention to it, although she wasn't the trainer of that horse.


Thanks, Stephanie! I wonder if that horse had a short mouth, or if it was personal preference for the owner/trainer? I thought it was actually impressive, but the judges seemed to think it was dangerous.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 6, 2010)

Marsha Cassada said:


> The vet pulled his mouth back quite a bit, using his finger like a bit, and showed that the bit wasn't resting by the molars. That is what made me think I might shorten the headstall. But I guess I will just double check and make sure it's not setting on his teeth, and leave it with one "smile" wrinkle.


That sounds good to me. If the vet had to pull his lips up that far, how comfortable do you think that would be for him on a regular basis? Especially if he has tight, thick lips!







Marsha Cassada said:


> I wonder if anyone makes a bitless miniature bridle?


They do. I know someone locally who uses a custom Dr. Cook for trail driving and I've seen miniature sizes advertised on bitless websites. Makes sense if you're starting very young kids on riding! Don't give them a chance to ruin the horse's bars while they're learning.



Marsha Cassada said:


> I volunteered at an A show last summer. One of the drivers had no bit with his horse. I remember the judges were horrified--but there was nothing in the rule book about it. I wish I had paid more attention to what the horse was wearing. But I didnt' even have Dusty then.
> ...I thought it was actually impressive, but the judges seemed to think it was dangerous.


It was. There's a big difference between using a bitless bridle and driving off the noseband and the noseband is bloody dangerous! I rode my elderly Arab bareback in a halter 90% of the time those last few years and he'd be utterly controllable, a complete gentleman. I could even get him to collect and do lateral work just like he had a bit in his mouth! I got in the habit of attaching reins to the halter part of a nylon halter-bridle combo headstall I'd had from his younger days and riding him that way because it looked more formal than the actual barn halter and I thought I could steer better. Well, we got to the beach that way and my old man came alive and suddenly wouldn't listen to the headstall anymore.



I realized that I had NO control and the only thing that kept me from getting hurt is that he was careful even as he dragged me off down the beach in the direction _he_ wanted to go not to do anything to put us at risk. The barn halter was actually better as it sat much lower on his nose and to some extent I could wrestle his head down but the combo headstall sat up just under his cheekbones where a cavesson usually sits and he was able to put his nose up and keep it there and completely neutralize anything but directional aids. It was an, um, "exciting exercise" in learning to modulate my horse's energy solely through breathing and seat aids but I wouldn't want to repeat it and the thought of having a horse do that in a cart puts me in a cold sweat.

At least if a riding horse gets out of control at worst case you can bail out and there's only a loose horse to catch. If a driving horse gets out of control they're taking off with a large and heavy weapon attached which will only scare them further and cause much harm bouncing off spaces too small for it. In my opinion that additional danger makes it the driver's responsibility to protect innocent bystanders by doing whatever is necessary to prevent that sort of accident. If someone wants to trail drive their horse in a bitless bridle that's their call. Driving in a group, well, that could be debated. Riding- sure, go for it! I probably will. But in NO account, in my opinion, should someone be driving a horse off the noseband of a regular bridle or halter in a show situation! If that horse should panic and stop paying attention to his training (the mental component that makes him respect pressure on the noseband as meaning something like "stop" or "turn") the driver has no recourse at all and may not even be able to turn the horse.

I stretch a lot of traditional handling boundaries with my horses because of unspoken things like trust and intuition but even I am not willing to risk the safety other competitor's horses by doing something like that in such a stressful situation where horses already flip out with bits on. I don't like the idea of stopping a horse through pain but if it's rip his mouth off and stop him or be touchy-feely and have the horse ruined for life in a horrific accident, I'll rip his face off every time and apologize later.

Leia

Edited to add: I'm surprised the rule stating the check must be attached to the bit did not kick in by default. I know one of the registries fails to specify that but I thought the other one did?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 6, 2010)

Double post, sorry.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 6, 2010)

Thanks, everyone! Every horse seems to be a new learning experience.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 6, 2010)

Marsha Cassada said:


> Thanks, everyone! Every horse seems to be a new learning experience.


And thank God for that!



Otherwise what would the point be?

Leia


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## RhineStone (Jun 7, 2010)

Instead of one wrinkle, consider no wrinkles. The wrinkle thing is "old school", like giving water to a hot horse. Bits need to be where the horse wants it. I have horses with short mouths that don't like wrinkles at all.

I would also play around with bit styles before I would go to a bitless situation, especially on a growing mini. It's not like he has a "damaged" mouth, just one you haven't found the perfect solution for.

If he has a sensitive mouth, I would try a simple mullen with less moving parts. Again, the "old school" belief is that mullens are "harsh" because they don't "conform" to the horse's mouth, but I was just at a Muffy Seaton clinic this weekend, and she exchanged a lot of mullens and straight mouths for jointed bits that the horses couldn't lean on. If solid bar bits were harsh, the horses wouldn't lean on them.

Also, check the width of your horse's mouth. If he is a bigger mini, he might take a 4" wide bit.

Hope this helps,

Myrna


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 7, 2010)

Temperature was finally moderate enough this morning to take Dusty out. I lengthened the headstall one notch. The bit seemed to lay in his mouth fine. He carries it pretty easily. There was a slight smile. No head shaking or signs of discomfort. Next time I may lenthen the headstall a notch on the other side and see if I can tell a difference. I think he is fine with this myler bit. We had a good workout.

I appreciate everyone's help with this!


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## maplegum (Jun 8, 2010)

I drive Bailey in a bitless bridle. In fact, he has never had a bit in his mouth.

I bought my bitless bridle here in Australia. It's all leather and a lovely cross under bridle.

I'd like to see the rules relaxed here too as far as competing in a bitless. It means I can't show him in cart which is such a shame.

We love our bitless bridle.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 9, 2010)

maplegum said:


> I drive Bailey in a bitless bridle. In fact, he has never had a bit in his mouth.
> 
> I bought my bitless bridle here in Australia. It's all leather and a lovely cross under bridle.
> 
> ...


Hello! I've missed updates on those two lately. Do you have a picture of him in his bridle?


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## maplegum (Jun 9, 2010)

Marsha Cassada said:


> Hello! I've missed updates on those two lately. Do you have a picture of him in his bridle?



I had posted some photos of Bailey and Willow on the photo forum page and no one replied so I figured that no one was interested.





This is a photo taken a while back. I have no idea what I was doing with my hands in this photo!










And these pics taken on Saturday at our winter training day. It was our 1st time out in the cart away from home and Bailey and I. And guess what? He was perfect! There were other horses and carts there, loads of people and horses and Bailey did so well. We drove through the cones too. It was harder work for him in the sand though! People actually commented that he drove perfectly in a bitless bridle.

I had a lady there help me fit his harness better after these pics were taken.


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## wildoak (Jun 9, 2010)

I've seen bitless bridles for minis advertised, but I think it would have to be a horse I had implicit trust in to use one. I've ridden in halters, bosals, and all manner of bitless arrangements but as Leia said you can always bail from a riding horse if the going gets bad enough or just one rein them around in a circle to stop. When a horse gets into a panic mode the head goes up, nose out....and you lose any leverage you might have had with just a noseband. Can't do a tight circle with a cart, so that doesn't leave you many options.

Jan


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 9, 2010)

Bailey is adorable, as always! (My all time favorite photo is of them supervising the woodworking project with their eye protection.)

I have a question about the breeching strap in your driving photo. I notice you have yours on the outside of the shaft. I have been taking mine down the inside, through the loop, wrap around the shaft in front of the footman's loop, then back to buckle.

Is there a correct way?

Isnt' is great when someone experienced can give you good, constructive tips on fitting the harness!

I am not sure about a bitless bridle for my boys, but it has been an interesting discussion.

Marsha


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## RhineStone (Jun 9, 2010)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I have a question about the breeching strap in your driving photo. I notice you have yours on the outside of the shaft. I have been taking mine down the inside, through the loop, wrap around the shaft in front of the footman's loop, then back to buckle.
> 
> Is there a correct way?


There are ways that are more correct than others. However, I learned last year from Mary Ruth Marks that you can manipulate the breeching straps to be more effective for a particular purpose. The way you describe is the most "acceptable" way, especially for Pleasure Driving shows. I would make one addition to tuck the end under at least one wrap before buckling it. That way if the buckle gives, the leather can still grip itself and you might have a chance at stopping before something major happens. You also want to catch the trace in the bigger "hole" in the breeching strap, so that you can keep it off the horse.

CDE drivers seem to use more and different methods of attaching the breeching, like I said above, to be more effective for the particular situation.

Myrna


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## maplegum (Jun 9, 2010)

LOL Marsha, don't ask me! I'm only learning myself.

I had a lady point out after these pics were taken at our training day that I should have the traces through the shaft loops and breeching straps so that they don't sag down like you can see in the photos.

I have also now adjusted the chest plate and also the breeching so that it will be more comfortable for Bailey boy. I really had no idea that there was a 'correct' way to attach the breeching to the shafts. I will try it the way you described.

I need as much feedback as possible in relation to harnessing Bailey. Could Bailey benefit from a 'V' shaped chest plate?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 10, 2010)

Myrna's answered the breeching/holdback strap question for me so I'll just say "Ditto that."







maplegum said:


> I had a lady point out after these pics were taken at our training day that I should have the traces through the shaft loops and breeching straps so that they don't sag down like you can see in the photos.


Hmm, I hate to say it but the "lady" is wrong! It is very incorrect to run the traces through the shaft loops ("tugs") as it would break the line of draft. You have done it right by running them through the opening between the tugs and overgirth assembly and the horse's body. That just happens to be a big space with your current harness arrangement!

Having the traces run through the holdbacks as described in Myna's post will solve the problem of them draping down further forward towards the saddle as well.



maplegum said:


> I need as much feedback as possible in relation to harnessing Bailey. Could Bailey benefit from a 'V' shaped chest plate?


You bet he could!



Look how far down that breastcollar is towards his legs in the photo where he's pulling past the cone- that makes it very hard for him to push his shoulder forward with each step and greatly restricts his freedom of movement. You can't put the breastcollar too much higher without pushing on his windpipe so you'd need to change the shape of the breastcollar itself to make it fit better. I don't know too many minis who actually do well in a straight breastcollar other than the very fine ones used for show (and the horse is usually pulling from the saddle in that scenario anyway!) When they do it's usually very soft, form-fitting leather that stretches to fit like my old work harness.

I'd try raising the breastcollar a notch or two to start, drop the breeching down to be in line with the breastcollar and shafts, rewrap the holdback straps and maybe push the saddle back a bit too. I know it's hard when they're a little plump but if you can it would be good.




I'm normally not a fan of martingales on non-show harness but it occurs to me it would be one traditional way to keep the horse from flipping up his head and ignoring pressure on a noseband or halter. The martingale would keep the pressure downwards so he couldn't "get away from it" when being naughty; that's its original purpose, after all! Or at least keeping the horse from getting the bit in his teeth, which amounts to the same trick of negating your power to stop him.



If properly adjusted so the reins are still in a straight line when his head is being carried naturally then it shouldn't affect him unless he tried to stick his nose straight out and run.

Leia

Edited to add: You might also want to tighten up the traces. They should slacken only as the breeching starts to come into play so there shouldn't be that much to drape down if the breeching and traces are both adjusted right.


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## Peggy Porter (Jun 10, 2010)

> I had posted some photos of Bailey and Willow on the photo forum page and no one replied so I figured that no one was interested.


Speaking for myself only, I don't "hang out" on the photo forum or the main mini forum. I can only read about breeding 2 yr olds a few times before I retch! I really enjoy the driving forum or the other CDE forum. It is very interesting to me to read about driving in other countries, so please keep posting. Bailey is adorable and looks like he really enjoys driving. I defer to Leia and Myrna as far as harness fitting, but will say that my mini Sundance Kid really benefitted from the Freedom collar (deep V).



> I have no idea what I was doing with my hands in this photo!


I have the same problem with my hands! They seem to have a mind of their own (but only a small part of a brain!)


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## maplegum (Jun 10, 2010)

Marsha, so sorry, I seem to have taken over your post!

I can shorten the traces so I will do that...that is an easy fix.

Can someone suggest where I should buy a 'V' shaped colar for Bailey? I have looked at websites here in Australia with no luck. I did search some American sites and some of them are really expensive! More expensive than the harness I have! I'd like a leather one to match his harness.

I also seem to have an issue with the saddle slipping back. The bottom part where the girth sits stays in place but the top part of the saddle slips backs so that it is not straight. I don't do the girth up tight like you would with a riding horse and saddle, just firm enough to stay in place. His fat gut makes it hard to sit the girth back any further.





xox Leonie xox


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## RhineStone (Jun 11, 2010)

maplegum said:


> Can someone suggest where I should buy a 'V' shaped colar for Bailey? I have looked at websites here in Australia with no luck. I did search some American sites and some of them are really expensive! More expensive than the harness I have! I'd like a leather one to match his harness.
> 
> I also seem to have an issue with the saddle slipping back. The bottom part where the girth sits stays in place but the top part of the saddle slips backs so that it is not straight. I don't do the girth up tight like you would with a riding horse and saddle, just firm enough to stay in place. His fat gut makes it hard to sit the girth back any further.


I really like my Freedom Collar from Camptown Harness. I don't know what the exchange rate does to the price, though.

The rotating saddle is a tough one, especially on well-sprung horses. I have two of them, not necessarily fat, but ribs that are nice and round. There is a fine line between loosening the back strap to encourage the saddle to stay upright, and getting the crupper too loose. Make sure your saddle has plenty of gullet clearance, so that it is not rotating into the horse's spine. Other than that, you just have to "play" with it, to see what adjustments make a difference. With some horses, I think you just have to live with it, and try to make them as comfortable as possible. Having a wider saddle also helps with comfort.

Myrna


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