# Two Questions Overcheck and Bridle path



## KellyAlaska (Feb 26, 2012)

What is the point of using an overcheck? If the horse ducks his head down can't you just correct him with a firm hold/bump with the reins? The only times I have seen an overcheck used it seems like it would be very unnatural and uncomfortable for the horse. Why is it required in the breed shows?

Why do most minis/Shetlands have super long bridle paths? When I got my stallion last year he had about 12 inches of his mane shaved off as a bridle path. They also shaved his mane underneath I am assuming to remove some of the bulk and make him look more like a horse. I am letting his mane grow out again and this is going to be a long slow and awkward process. He looks like a half zebra half horse. LOL I Iove when he looks like a pony with tons of mane and forelock. I think that is a part of his charm.


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## Katiean (Feb 26, 2012)

The long bridle path is to make the neck look longer and thiner. It is mostly done for the show ring.

As for the overcheck. I prefer the side check. We used the overcheck in standardbred race horses so the horse pulls and balances on the bit. If not properly adjusted the horse can bang and cut it's mouth up. In the mini's, I did use an overcheck at first. I then found the sidecheck allowed for a more natural head set. I always use a loose sidecheck. On trails the horse cant reach for a quick bite. I guess you could give them a bump with the bit. But why be that harsh on the mouth. Also, if you drive in the show ring with a check rein, I think you should drive the trails with a check rein.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 26, 2012)

The correct place for a checkrein is in the bin.

It is a lazy persons answer to their horse putting it's head down and a warped person's answer to their horse not holding it's head high enough in the show ring!!

Driving on trails could actually be very dangerous to the horse, if it were wearing a check rein, If it stumbles it will rip it's mouth up.

So, what _is_ the point?

I don't know anymore I just know America is the only country in the world that uses them- are American horses really that much harder to control?

The "bridle space" has just got out of control, and I refuse to buy into it. I have never been marked down or had any prejudice against me for not hogging 3/4 of my horses mane (and the AMHA specifically bans hogging. btw)

I bend the ear back, cut that much mane off, pause to put band aids on the cuts inflicted by a horse that objects to having it's ear bent back, and then take of a little bit more, if I deem in necessary. That is it. I have actually had a Judge remark that it is nice to see an intact mane for a change, so it certainly is not the Judges who want all this done, any more than they want the gross out put of a gloop factory smeared on the horse- Judges are actually capable of _judging_ that is what they are there for, and whilst I agree with presenting a clean, well behaved horse in the ring, I also show in full coat, not clipping to the skin for me, and I win.


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## JMS Miniatures (Feb 26, 2012)

An over check is used to help bring his head up but you loose that verticle flexion because the horse can't bring his nose in when its being lifted up by the check. A side check can help bring the head up if you keep it tight but it also helps with the verticle flexion. For the reasoning the breed registeries say that we must use a check due to safety issues is hogwash IMO and me personally I wouldn't ban the use of checks but at least gives us an option to use them or not. For the western horses there is no need to have a check and mine I can't make it loose enough.

I don't paticuarlly like making a bridle path go all the way down to almost the withers. I think it looks redicilous and a bit obvious. I think it gives a nice impression and a more clean look to clip it a lil longer then just to the ear, it doesn't get so much in the way with check but the judges get a better view of their necks. I personally like to take the mane down to their shoulder. Gives a clean view of their neck and still leaves plenty of mane. Obviously not all like that and if they weren't showing I would just go down the length of the ear.


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## My2Minis (Feb 26, 2012)

If you're not showing you can have a more natural horse. I love the shaggy Thelwell pony look - that's what I love about minis. If I wasn't driving, I would go with no bridle path at all. I like the bridle path as minimal as possible, just the length of an ear bent back. Without any bridle path it's hard to get the bridle on some of these shaggy little ones.


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## Marsha Cassada (Feb 26, 2012)

The best way I've found to grow out that mohawk mane piece is braiding. When I have had to grow one out I keep it braided into the longer part. It looks tidier that way and conforms better when fully grown out.

I have a project horse right now and the owner does not want the bridle path cut. I have seperated the mane/forelock and braided the mane by the bridle path area to help keep it out of the way. I actually am liking the natural look of it. He is learning to wear a bridle and I haven't seen that it interfers with him, though it is a little harder to get the bridle situated in the long hair.

I have put an overcheck on my horse temporarily. I think it is less harsh than constantly popping the reins and smacking with the whip. Let him punish himself and I think he will learn his lesson sooner. We are only using it for ground driving, however, and I don't plan to use it when he is hitched again. He is recovering from a stifle injury and slowly going back to work. While working in the cart he is too busy to snatch grass, but the ground driving routine is causing me trouble.

I don't like checks and I would certainly vote for them to be optional in a show ring.

As for America being the only place where overchecks are used, I have no sure knowledge. However, I don't think we invented them...


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## Katiean (Feb 26, 2012)

I have a mare with really tiny ears. She always gets more than an ears length cut on her bridle path.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 26, 2012)

Sorry, but a horse will learn nothing from having a check on except that his mouth hurts at times , and for reasons, he cannot ascertain. A horse will learn not to put his head down to eat if you check him verbally and give him a gentle pop with the whip .

It is the difference between putting a halti on a dog to prevent it from pulling and teaching it to walk quietly - the halti will never, ever teach the dog not to pull, it will only ever prevent it from doing so, and the check will never teach the horse not to put it's head down to eat, only prevent it from doing so.

Only you can teach it .


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## susanne (Feb 26, 2012)

Two of my pet peeves!

I detest long bridle paths...as I've said before, one of these days the bridle path and the tail V are going to meet!

I've used about an ear length bridle path on Mingus, then gelled the first inch or so of mane to lie down along the crest, giving a nice halter class look but leaving enough mane not to look stupid in liberty. Now that we're not doing halter (at least not in AMHR), I'm growing part of his bridle path out...at the moment, he look like he is wearing a shiny black plume!

I've never put a check on him and never plan to with any of our horses. To stop "grass snatching," I began long ago by never allowing him to graze while in hand unless I first said he could. Any attempts otherwise were met with a loud "HEH!" He tried a couple of time when we were first driving, but he got the same "HEH!" and a light pop of the whip. It works for us.


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## Marsha Cassada (Feb 26, 2012)

susanne said:


> I've never put a check on him and never plan to with any of our horses. To stop "grass snatching," I began long ago by never allowing him to graze while in hand unless I first said he could. Any attempts otherwise were met with a loud "HEH!" He tried a couple of time when we were first driving, but he got the same "HEH!" and a light pop of the whip. It works for us.


I hope newbies are reading this advice. The "long ago" is the critical part. It is well-nigh impossible to break if you ever allow it in hand.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 27, 2012)

I think the mane question has been satisfactorily answered so I won't cover that one. Some of the answers to the check question, on the other hand, are really raising my eyebrows!








Katiean said:


> ... On trails the horse cant reach for a quick bite. I guess you could give them a bump with the bit. But why be that harsh on the mouth.


Um, I hate to be the one to point it out but the check is attached to the bit just like the reins are. Both methods thump them in the mouth, the check just hits the molars I'd imagine instead of the bars.



rabbitsfizz said:


> Sorry, but a horse will learn nothing from having a check on except that his mouth hurts at times , and for reasons, he cannot ascertain. A horse will learn not to put his head down to eat if you check him verbally and give him a gentle pop with the whip .It is the difference between putting a halti on a dog to prevent it from pulling and teaching it to walk quietly - the halti will never, ever teach the dog not to pull, it will only ever prevent it from doing so, and the check will never teach the horse not to put it's head down to eat, only prevent it from doing so.
> 
> Only you can teach it.


Fizz, you know I love you. You know I agree with you on the subject of checks. I don't like the sort of frame they often produce, I don't think they are in any way "necessary," and I agree that horses are perfectly capable of learning not to graze without them. But I'm going to suck it up and tell you I think you're going a little bit overboard here.





The reason people use halti's and loose checks is because all they care about is that the animal NOT DO THE ANNOYING BEHAVIOR. Honestly who cares if they really learned not to put their head down or simply don't do it because they know they can't? The point is that horse is no longer snatching grass and that holy terror canine can now be safely taken for a walk by his elderly owner!



Try getting a harness horse who has spent its lifetime being told that even in the roundpen cantering is A Terrible Sin to break gait and see how easy it isn't to break through habituation!



I know horses who were initially trained in snug checks who still move like they have one on after years of dressage schooling and would not DREAM of flexing or reaching for grass. It simply doesn't occur to them it's possible, just like it doesn't occur to them to canter. I personally find that sort of invisible mental shackle to be rather sad but it is proof that the method is effective and there are many owners who are simply never going to develop the skill to properly train their dog or horse. It's a fact of life and many times they truly love their animal and otherwise provide a good home. Why not allow them a painless artificial aid to make life more pleasant for both partners instead of them constantly battling? Keep in mind I have no idea what a halti is so can't vouch for its harmlessness but in the case of checks, a loosely adjusted sidecheck literally does not affect the horse at all until and unless he does dive for grass. Then it snatches him in the mouth EXACTLY as hard as the horse dived, at the exact _moment_ he dived, and releases the instant he puts his head back up in a natural position. That is what the driver is attempting to do with the reins, only clearer and faster. If you combine that instant correction with the vocal reprimand and a pop of the whip then the horse truly does learn and often the whip and voice are all that's needed in the future. A kick strap works the same way for bucking- they hit it instantly, it prevents the horse from succeeding while you correct them, then later the correction is associated with stopping the action.

Like Marsha's horse, my Kody can be annoying on those first ground-drives of the year as he long ago figured out that he can prance ahead of me with his head bowed to his chest, get me to extend the reins and my elbows in an effort not to yank him in the mouth as he rushes forward then slam on the brakes and dive for a mouthful of green spring grass before I can get myself stopped and gather up the slack. It's a short distance to the ground so he usually succeeds! And then no amount of whipping, yelling or yanking on the reins from behind will get his head up until he's done. There's practically a neon sign above his ears saying he's decided it's worth the beating and he goes on eating until I go to his head and pull him up. What a fight, and it leaves a very bad impression with the neighbors as I'm out there flogging my horse on the roadside.



He does not do this in the cart as of course he stays equidistant ahead of me and he can't trick me into slackening the reins enough. A much simpler solution is to put a loose sidecheck on for a few workouts. The look of indignation and shock on his face when Mr. You-Can't-Stop-Me hits that check the first time is PRICELESS and very satisfying to my rein-sawed hands! He usually tries once more half-heartedly then gives it up and after a few drives the habit of obedience is reestablished and I can take the check off with no more problem.

So while it is my belief that overchecks in particular have no legitimate modern purpose and I don't like any sort of tight check, I cannot agree that checks in general are the devil and a lazy person's answer, etc. etc. Sometimes the smart person isn't the winner of a fight but the one who avoids the conflict altogether!







Katiean said:


> Also, if you drive in the show ring with a check rein, I think you should drive the trails with a check rein.


To me there is a difference. The show ring is flat, the horse is usually pulling a light load and only being asked to do simple work (walk, trot, back, pivot) on good footing. He's unlikely to trip terribly or hit a difficult patch of ground. The real world is much different with hills and ditches and rough terrain, and the horse needs to be able to get his head down to pull properly as well as to attempt to recover if he should trip.



Katiean said:


> We used the overcheck in standardbred race horses so the horse pulls and balances on the bit.


Exactly. Checks, especially overchecks, work great for creating a steady, predictable horse that requires little thought to drive in the desired frame. It was normal equipment in early America for the same reason automatic transmission cars are so popular- most people only wanted to get from Point A to Point B and didn't care how the "vehicle" worked! Checks allowed them to do so without actually knowing a thing about driving. Click to go forwards, pull back to stop, pull left or right to turn. Easy. Except for when it was taken to Black Beauty extremes for fashion, the whole thing worked fairly well.

The use of _tight_ checks from my reading was partially uncaring ignorance and an obsession with fashion (wanting to make the horses look "fancy" by prancing and tossing their heads) and partially that regrettable human tendency to add more and more straps to control misbehavior rather than inquiring as to the root of the problem. That book by Mr. Flower mentions many times how horses who were considered "unmanageable" were put in more and more severe bits, tighter checks, etc., in an effort to control them but often went perfectly well once bitted with a simple snaffle and no check rein at all because they'd been reacting to pain and being so constrained. We still do that today with our riding horses! Have a horse who pulls? Use a harsher bit! Humans never learn.





Now that horses are used mostly for recreation by those who actually like them, want to learn to handle them properly and (theoretically) have an eye towards their comfort, I see no reason to check them up. The legitimate historical reasons have not applied for many years and improvements in our equipment have resolved the safety concerns checks used to address. The only non-show use I see left is to help a hardcore grazer or an animal driven by a handicapped individual break the habit of trying to dive for food.



Marsha Cassada said:


> I hope newbies are reading this advice. The "long ago" is the critical part. It is well-nigh impossible to break if you ever allow it in hand.


Like anything else it's a matter of laying down the law. I'm sure the animal would be confused when the rules changed but if you were consistent about it they'd learn. Sort of like what happens when the Super Nanny visits or having Caesar Milan show up to work with your dog!



There's always rebellion then they settle into the new routine.

I'm sure many people would be horrified to see me leading my boys down the street as they walk/run along grazing, but they know that A) they are only allowed to do that if I've said so, B) the lead lines must never tighten or pull on me as I continue to walk steadily along, and C) any horse who violates the rules will be summarily pulled from grass and denied the privilege until further notice. They've learned to jog up to the end of the lead ahead of me, stop to eat, then move on again just before the lead gets tight.



And yet I can park either one of these horses on grass at liberty, put them on a Whoa Stand and they will keep their heads up and watch me until I tell them otherwise. They know the rules! That walk-and-graze routine is only allowed on our evening walks and only after I've said so.

Okay, I know I've written a book but one last thing:



rabbitsfizz said:


> The "bridle space" has just got out of control, and I refuse to buy into it. I have never been marked down or had any prejudice against me for not hogging 3/4 of my horses mane (and the AMHA specifically bans hogging. btw) ... I have actually had a Judge remark that it is nice to see an intact mane for a change, so it certainly is not the Judges who want all this done, any more than they want the gross out put of a gloop factory smeared on the horse- Judges are actually capable of _judging_ that is what they are there for, and whilst I agree with presenting a clean, well behaved horse in the ring, I also show in full coat, not clipping to the skin for me, and I win.


To me that says that BRITISH judges have common sense and think Americans are nuts. Well duh, we are! Over here you will not win an AMHA/R halter class without the horse at least _looking_ as short-coated as a clipped horse, face shaved (not necessarily razored but shaved), and the mane thinned down considerably. Some of those bridle paths are more than ridiculous and I don't think the judges are dumb enough to believe that makes for a longer neck, but they DO tell me that the mane needs to be thinned or they "can't see the horse properly." Have I mentioned how much I prefer the British way of doing things??





I undercut my manes a bit because it truly does make for a more proportional picture, but I refuse to thin them enough for U.S. halter standards. I have to be able to live with what I see in the pasture when they AREN'T turned out for show!



Each horse gets a bridlepath long enough to make them look their best whatever that may be; it depends completely on the shape of their individual neck.

Leia


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 27, 2012)

Leia, will will have to agree to disagree on this one, I am afraid. I just do not see why it is so hard to reeducate a horse out of bad habits, if you are motivated. One of the first "littleies" I harness trained was a 39" brick outhouse who pretended to be a Shetland (I swear she was a pygmy hippo) What Amy wanted, Amy got, basically, mainly by shoving and leaning. She learned. Walking out in harness was NOT free snack time. I did not use a check as we do not use checks- it's brilliant when it is that simple and you have no recourse but to find a better way. A check is a quick fix, one that can be potentially dangerous to the horse, and one that , IMO at least, should be regarded as if it does not exist. That way you have to find another answer.

The Halti analogy was sound, it will never teach a dog not to pull, only prevent it, and I have seen at east four checked horses (who I insisted on having removed as it is against our rules) literally fall apart as they had been balancing on the rein, and once it was not there they did not know what to do- how can this be good??

Using a standing martingale does not teach a horse to hold it's head lower, only forces it to, as far as I can see the analogy is straightforward.

The check rein has no place in modern harness driving, it is too open to misuse and nothing at all, that does or is capable of, artificially changing an animals head carriage has any place in the show ring- we might as well just give up and show robot horses, at least we could not harm them!!

I know I am coming on a bit hard, here, this is not, in any way, an attack on any individual, but I just for the life of me, honestly do fail to see how everywhere else in the world manages more than adequately without the things yet, apparently, in America, they are "necessary"

Oh and the Judge who made the remark about the mane and the coat?? AMHA American Judge! Actually, one of three.......


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 27, 2012)

Oh, we mostly agree Fizz.



Checks are HORRIBLY open to misuse and any piece of equipment which can only be used to the animals benefit in expert hands is one that should not be allowed IMO. I hate the darn things! Completely and passionately hate them, and always recommend that people take them off and solve the problem themselves. But in certain limited circumstances which have nothing to do with modifying head carriage I do believe there is nothing wrong with taking the easier way for a limited time. I could have stopped Kody's snatching, yes. But it would have taken far longer, been much more of a struggle, and involved a lot more whipping and yanking for the poor horse. How is that better for him?

Your horses, I might point out, are out on grass 24/7 and have therefore the happy life of a naturally living grazer in a herd. Sadly most of our horses live in dirt pens and spring grass causes far more of a desperate over-reaction from deprivation. Sort of like the way a penned stallion acts when taken out for breeding (screaming, rearing and carrying on) compared to a stallion who lives with a herd and breeds quietly without any fanfare. The right answer of course is to keep the horse as naturally as possible so you remove the underlying obsession then train with discipline, but most of us don't have that option so we continue to struggle more than is necessary if we have a truly stubborn horse. My dressage trainer laughs over Kody, she says she's never seen a horse who can so well ignore the whip when he wants to.



I've used a check maybe three times in the last three working years but use of it did resolve the problem since unlike me it stopped him before he got his head down and thus allowed me to correct him properly rather than playing catchup after he was already eating. Used without that correction from the handler it would not have taught him anything, but WITH the correction it was the missing link to breaking the habit. Again though I'm an experienced handler who was very careful in using the equipment with a specific goal in mind. Someone with less experience might have, as you said, only prevented and not educated.



rabbitsfizz said:


> I have seen at least four checked horses (who I insisted on having removed as it is against our rules) literally fall apart as they had been balancing on the rein, and once it was not there they did not know what to do- how can this be good??


Of course it's not good. That is what I hate about driving with a tight (meaning can be felt during normal movement) check! It essentially ties the horse's head to his tail via the crupper and locks down all the vertebral joints in between- it's like asking a man to run with his arms tied to his sides. (And yes, I got that analogy out of one of the 19th century anti-check books I was reading at 4 in the morning while writing my last response.) Checks help quickly make a useable driving animal- one who can get from Point A to Point B. They do NOT educate the horse in how to use HIMSELF. They teach him how to move within the confines of the check. In many ways sadly the modern American show pen is much like that early transportation era- the point is to get the horse to the finish line (the ribbon) as soon as possible and no one particularly cares if he learns to carry himself without it. Why should he? He's only going to be used for a few years and only to get a ribbon. He does not need to learn to pull with maximum power, or strengthen all his muscles so he does not get an injury, nor become supple for the same reason. It is a waste of time as far as that goal is concerned.

I don't say I AGREE with any of this, only that this is the way it is. I hope that as our goals for our competition horses change and we start aiming to keep them healthy and active longer, working happier and always mentally engaged in their training that perhaps people will look for a new way of doing things. I already see signs of that and more and more people are beginning to question the necessity of checks as participation in ADS competitions becomes more popular and they are exposed to a broader driving world. There is hope! But meanwhile it is a fact of AMHR/A driving and I was simply trying to answer the OP's question about why they were used in the first place.



rabbitsfizz said:


> ...nothing at all, that does or is capable of, artificially changing an animals head carriage has any place in the show ring- we might as well just give up and show robot horses, at least we could not harm them!!


*snort* What makes you think we aren't?

We are not judging the driver's ability in our classes. We aren't even judging the horse's training. We are judging the horse's natural quality and who comes closest to the desired outline. Point A...Point B...voila.





I've noticed checks have begun appearing in both the British and Australian rings as they follow the American style of showing. You'd better watch out! I'll end with a quote from Mr. Edward Fordham Flower in his 1885 7th edition of "Bits and Bearing-Reins - With Observations on Horses and Harness." He says:

_"When I was travelling in Scotland last autumn I saw no bearing-reins but those that were imported by a few Londoners, whose coachmen are trying to engraft the absurd practice even in that hilly country. Bad example is contagious, and quickly followed; but it takes line upon line, and precept upon precept, to inculcate even a little common sense, especially when it involves a slight amount of self-sacrifice or trouble, either in learning or teaching."_

Leia


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## My2Minis (Feb 27, 2012)

I put a loose overcheck when driving our gelding on grass. He is a mature and seasoned grass-snatcher and can snatch grass at a trot using expert timing. He doesn't do it all the time, but I worry about getting a rein caught when he does. I'd rather keep it safe and simple, and I don't think it does much harm. It's loose enough to only get him if he dives for grass. I don't want to fight him about it- the checkrein does the work. Once he knows it's there, he stops snatching. I know it's the easy way out, but it works.


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## Jules (Feb 28, 2012)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I hope newbies are reading this advice. The "long ago" is the critical part. It is well-nigh impossible to break if you ever allow it in hand.


I am a newbie (to minis and the forum) and reading that advice and TOTALLY agree about when they are in hand



. Not commenting on the use of checks at all as I don't have experience with them.

Absolutely, no way, is my newly gelded 3yo allowed to even think about grazing while in hand. I know some people allow them to do it in halter but not with a bridle on, but I am just a flat out 'no way buddy' kind of handler.




I am not harsh, just consistent.

Edited to add, my horse is on pasture all the time and I am very lucky in that he had never been handled before I got him. Lucky in as much as there has been no precedents set so my word is law and he knows no different, poor fella


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## Jules (Feb 28, 2012)

Had to add that while he may not graze in hand, he has broken into my house to graze on pizza (my avatar pic)...so perhaps that is a bit worse than eating grass ? lol


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 28, 2012)

Jules said:


> I am a newbie (to minis and the forum) and reading that advice and TOTALLY agree about when they are in hand
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep, that makes the difference.



If mine were on pasture I probably wouldn't let them graze in-hand either. As it is however, if I don't let them graze in-hand by the roadside they'd never get to.





Leia


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## paintponylvr (Feb 28, 2012)

This is a truly controversial subject that is striking my funnybone!!!

I am still a "newbie" to driving. I have "check reins" on some of my harness - both the work type and the pleasure/show type - mostly side checks I think, but now I'd have to check on the ones where they are still attached. But when I got started training my purebred Shetlands - some of whom are mini sized and some now dbl-d AMHR - I used my home made harness. Walla - no check reins. I'm still learning how to adjust them for acceptable AMHR/ASPC showing -but that's a learning phase and had someone show me how to attach a side check loose enough that it didn't affect the way of going but was still acceptable for the rules - YAY!

To my 1st comment -

How/WHERE do you guys drive that they have to "dive" for grass? Shoot - half the time when we are able to trail drive - we are making trails/tracks thru a "jungle" of GRASS stems - all they do is reach forward with their muzzles before their legs mash it down and a check rein, no matter how tight/loose, has no bearing whatsoever!! LOLOL. (fun pun intended, here)



My trail driving pictures won't/don't show this as when in this mode we are so busy that handlling the camera is out of the question. I literally only have "butt shots" while driving on sandy paths or "parked"... Here is one Stuffy/Bit grass. Lets not start another thread on safety - I already know what is wrong with this pic from no helmets on any of us, to handling the larger pony while hitched w/ loooong driving lines, and some other issues.

BUT the breast collar for this harness had broken two days before this impromtu drive, and we used a braided breast collar and traces for our go. They'd been slightly too long and then stretched - on an uphill incline. At least my daughter knew to say "WAIT, help" when both shafts pulled out of the shaft carriers!

One of the mares that I drive now had years of experience trail riding with our youngest daughter. I put "grass reins" (a riding side check, LOL, whose idea I got while IN EUROPE!) on her to keep her from pulling her tiny rider out of the saddle when she "dove" - but then we started hitting the "grass forests" and it was a lost cause - again. Becuase I didn't want to show pictures of her "bad habit", I rarely took shots of her/my daughter wihile we were trail riding. But I have many fond memories of her in a typical "THEWELLIAN" pose with long stems hanging from both sides of her mouth and she never had to to dive because the smorgasboard was laid out at chest and/or head/muzzle height! She could chew and hold those stems while doing a great extended trot and also while cantering and jumping up/over logs, overhangs and ditches, too. The proverbial snack in waiting, LOL.



Stuffy snackin - She's grabbed a fern from the roundpen fence line I hadn't gotten out yet.. No cavesson nor grass reins this time around - during a lesson with 7 yr old granddaughter of my pony driving friend, Vicki.

And my ponies/minis also live out 24/7 but I have quite a few and grass anytime of the year is "heaven" to them. So it is training and paying attention all the time, LOL. Notice in the "driving shot" that both mares are behaving and have no grass in their mouths... When we do have them grab grass, we try to make a point to always stop and pull it out of their mouths. If they grab'/chew while we are trotting/cantering - it waits until we stop - but it does get removed and the expressions on their oh, so innocent pony faces are GREAT!!

OPs origianal ? - I hate the way the manes are shaved. I like ala naturel... Besides being protective for my outside beasties (no one is stalled), I just like the look. I clip outside the ears, then when go to local functions, use a clear "paste" w/ flyspray to lay hair flat inside the ears and give appeance of being shaved. That said, i have an older stallion whose thick, heavy mane is weighing down his neck and he's starting to look sad, woebegone and unhappy. I've pulled his mane thinner in years past, he doesn't like it and this year may go ahead and just shave the underside as well as slightly lengthen his bp. Anything to give him a hand at this time. Also, for the first time, I'm venturing into the breed rings in halter. Several yearlings are going out with differnt trainers. They will end up being presented the way that that trainer feels is best. I will let my feelings be known (carefully/respectfully), but still it will be done to what that trainers' expectations are.. I have already decided that that is OK - to finally get some of my ponies out there and known/seen. We'll see how they do in the future. I know that it takes me about two years to fully grow a long bridle path back in.


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## shorthorsemom (Feb 28, 2012)

I have a "been there done that" little gelding that I am learning to drive with and am in the hands of a very capable and experienced driving instructor with many years of driving experience on both minis and biggies. My boy although very well trained is an expert at timing a perfect snatch and grab for grass. In fact he can really be a little stinker about it.

After watching me trying to get his head up, snatching his mouth and using the whip and trying to time my inexperienced response to his head down fast jerk that pulls my arms practically out of my sockets and hurts my hands and my neck and watching me helpless in the field while my little stinker gets away with murder, my instructor put the side check back on my boy. We tried and tried to do this with simply training...he is just too good at it. Maybe because his former owner let him graze while being tacked up, and I have nerve issues from an old riding wreck and simply lack the strength to get his head up.

I agree with Leia and really feel that this is not a black and white issue of check or no check, but this topic must have areas of grey where the tool used properly is not cruel at all and that in many situations can be dangerous not to use the tool for certain people. We newbies have to start somewhere and it is rather sad to hear people lecturing about never using a side check, without knowing why certain people are in need... Kind of like "blanket training" treating all people and all horses the same in all training situations.

Just like with the halti for dog training, it is a tool to be used properly and with training and it serves a specific purpose. It is not for every handler and not for every dog, but in some instances it can be a life saver. I have been training dogs for 35 years. I was motivated to teach classes by a woman who helped me train a very difficult rescue dog. I had been kicked out of two training classes and left one class where the instructor said "with dogs like this, feet are fair" and she kicked my dog.

I could not hold him at all and took more than one trip across the yard on my face, I got wrapped around a tree and broke my hand as my dog liked to chase little furry critters that would pop out and run. I found a trainer that used a halti type device in her classes and for the first time I had control of my dog and went on to show this dog in obedience and use him as a therapy dog. With out the halti, I think he would have been a lost cause because I was an experienced handler and he reduced me to tears.

After I became an instructor and did a private lesson for a senior citizen whose son bought her a young german shepherd and I still remember the day I taught her how to use a halti, she walked her dog three times that day and had tears in her eyes thanking me for saving her dog from the pound. and people I have instructed with crippled hands that have large breed dogs using this device properly, can take their dog for a walk instead of taking themselves for a "ride".

On this horse check or no check topic that is resurfacing... there are many newbie trainers, both dog and horse that are working very hard to improve themselves and want to learn more and are in the hands of capable instructors that have made judgement calls on a case by case basis. It makes me sad to read postings that suggest that I am cruel or too stupid to train my horse using my driving skills rather than a training aid that my experienced instructor has suggested I use.

Leia's posting is very clear and kind... She perfers not to use the devices, but acknowledges the need in specific circumstances. Thanks Leia. We aren't all perfect and we have to start somewhere. I am tough on my boy about the grass, but he is very experienced and very fast and without the side check, I was losing more than winning and actually it was getting dangerous. We also recently learned the wisdom of keeping on the bucking strap. My boys former owner said that my boy would occasionally throw in a buck. After a year and a half of no bucking ever, we decided to skip the strap, my trainer advised. I swear my boy knew the strap was missing and after a year and a half of no bucking he tossed in a buck and got his leg over the shaft and he got very upset and we had our first wreck. My trainer actually remarked that without the side check keeping him from getting his head all the way to the ground might have helped us in getting back control quicker.. He now has both in use, side check is loose enough to have him reach his knees... and my lessons continue as I still have much to learn. My trainer runs with the big dogs in CDE, she is kind and very experienced and horses love her... I'm listening to her and the side check stays, its not cruel or stupid, it is a necessary tool in my specific circumstance.

PS, my boy is in a dry lot as we are trying to keep him from foundering... grass is like a drug for him. He gets no grazing in hand from me, but he got plenty before I owned him. He understands now that I don't allow it, but when he first came I dodged his teeth while tacking because he was allowed prior to me owning him to graze while tacking. We use cross ties now, and put down a rubber mat as a target because standing on food was making him nuts. Every horse, every handler every situation, should be evaluated independently IMO.

PS on the mane...


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## susanne (Feb 28, 2012)

To be honest, we didn't begin our no-hand-grazing policy until Mingus was fully grown and head strong. We didn't know better when we first adopted him, so we had some bad behavior to overcome. He was big and strong and knew how to push our buttons, plus Keith was (and still is) a big softy when it comes to his boy, so I had to play bad cop and establish the ground rules. Rather than letting him start grazing and then trying to pull his head up (not gonna happen), I watched for the "thought bubble" to appear and nipped it in the bud. When he walked on nicely he was profusely rewarded. Mingus is a smart horse and he much prefers being told he's a good, beautiful boy to hearing the dreaded "HEH!"

I always say it's a shame I didn't have Mingus to teach me about men back when I was single...


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