# Even more frustrated now...



## alongman (Jan 4, 2012)

With the untimely closure of my last post, I am starting another so we can discuss the issue that was originally posted regarding gay marriage legality. I want to preface this topic by asking if you are not man (or woman) enough to support your opinion with you name, please refrain from ridiculing those of us brave enough to have an opinion AND stand behind it.

Let the topic continue.....


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## alongman (Jan 4, 2012)

I am posting an interesting look that was published by the Human Rights Campaign that evaluates candidates in this election and their pro-gay marriage positions.

https://hrc.democracyengine.com/mbfb


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## Jill (Jan 4, 2012)

Adam, when I clicked the link, it just goes to a page about Bachmann.


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## alongman (Jan 4, 2012)

I completely respect your decision to shut down the topic. I would urge you to look into the matter, however, as we should all be adults and able to have a conversation. The miniature horse industry is full of opinions and a variety of people - that's what I love about it.



Jill said:


> Adam, when I clicked the link, it just goes to a page about Bachmann.


HMMM......I'll look into it..


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## LindaL (Jan 4, 2012)

Personally, I am glad that we have started a new thread. The other was getting a bit annoying...









The problem now is unless we get new people to comment, this thread won't go anywhere. Most of us have said what we wanted to say for the most part and generally agree that gay marriage and adoption should be legal (notice I said "most").

I do welcome more comments and different points of view, so let's hear from you...


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 4, 2012)

Adam, a bit off topic, but I wonder what you think about the on, off, on again of "don't ask, don't tell" that has gone on?

And to everyone: what about my questions about medicaid, unemployment, welfare, disability, etc.? Should gays be denied those rights? And why?


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## shelia (Jan 4, 2012)

Okay, I will jump in against my better judgement. I read part of the posts from the other thread. I don't have any strong opinions on this, but have noticed the only argument against it is based on religion. I guess a marraige ceremony is based on religion, but a marraige license is what makes it legal and is not based on religion.

Religious beliefs seem to be the cause of almost every war in history. It is only natural that it will cause a conflict with a group of people from a public forum.

It does seem odd that this is such an issue in the 21st century.

A little off topic, but I did see some posts regarding teaching gay history in schools. I may as well drag this up again too. I have thought a lot about this. I think back when I was in school and in History class. It was little more than a fairy tale. A very boring one at that. I learned very little about the true life of the people we were studying. I could have retained so much more of it had I known as much as I do now about who they really were. I think the details make them real. Why hide facts. To me that is not real history. It may take a little longer, but I have a right to know the whole truth.


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## rimmerpaints (Jan 4, 2012)

I missed this topic. Everyone has an opinion but sometimes people say things in the wrong way that can be hurtful. I have my opinions on it. My opinion is if they want to marry fine. Its not hurting me or my family. Do i think its right? Personally its not for me but I wont judge. I have gay friends and they know my feelings on it. I just feel who am I to say they shouldnt be together. There is only one person they have to answer to and that god. I leave it to him. I refuse to treat someone bad due to who they feel they want there life partner to be. As for them being able to adopt children I have mixed feeling on it. Every child deserves a loving family/parents regardless. People are so very cruel. It would effect the children of these marriages also. Its just hard for me to just firmly say No they shouldnt adopt. If your a true good person and loving parent then everyone should not have that taken away. I hope this makes sense.


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## rimmerpaints (Jan 4, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Adam, a bit off topic, but I wonder what you think about the on, off, on again of "don't ask, don't tell" that has gone on?
> 
> And to everyone: what about my questions about medicaid, unemployment, welfare, disability, etc.? Should gays be denied those rights? And why?



No they shouldnt be denied of these rights. They are no different other then they love different then I do. That doesnt make them less of a person. I think the welfare/medicaid system in a whole needs to be reevaled. If you are struggleing and need help then yes EVERYONE should be able to obtain this help. Its the ones who abuse it and the drug users that obtain this to sale for more drugs. That is what bothers me.


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## vickie gee (Jan 4, 2012)

LindaL said:


> Personally, I am glad that we have started a new thread. The other was getting a bit annoying...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ok, I personally do not agree with most who have posted. So you can welcome my comments or not. I will be mum on this topic after this anyway. I do not judge, that job is already taken. I am a Christian whether anyone likes it or not. It is my conviction (not opinion or belief) that makes me anti-gay. But I am also an American so therefore I respect the laws of our individual states because afterall we are the United States of America. If gay marriage is legal in a particular state then the couple should have all benefits and rights afforded to any other couple. Wherever you stand on the issue, if you don't like your state's laws then you can move. Yes, easier said than done more often than not. Take community property states, for instance. If you live in a community property state and you start accumulating wealth and you are married but you are into something that might cause you to get a divorce (adultery for instance). You might want to move to a non-community property state and stand less chance of having to split a lot of money with your future ex-spouse. Take capital punishment states as another example. Not a good place to lose your temper and kill. You will be judged in Texas before you meet your maker if you get convicted. That is just the law. Growing medical marijuana is legal in some states but not in others. I could go on and on. The legality/non-legality of gay marriage is at this time a state issue. I have a cousin who is gay. He knows I love him and it does not come with a seal of approval just as it does not come with a lecture. Going mum now.


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## alongman (Jan 4, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Adam, a bit off topic, but I wonder what you think about the on, off, on again of "don't ask, don't tell" that has gone on?
> 
> And to everyone: what about my questions about medicaid, unemployment, welfare, disability, etc.? Should gays be denied those rights? And why?


I hate that don't ask, don't tell policy - I have several friends who chose not to reveal their sexuality simply for fear of a closed-minded general public. However, my feeling is, for those who are brave enough to ask, as opposed to simply presume, I will openly answer.

I absolutely think that EVERYONE should be entitled to the same "financial" topics that you mentioned even though the government chooses not to acknowledge my marriage.


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## alongman (Jan 4, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Ok, I personally do not agree with most who have posted. So you can welcome my comments or not. I will be mum on this topic after this anyway. I do not judge, that job is already taken. I am a Christian whether anyone likes it or not. It is my conviction (not opinion or belief) that makes me anti-gay. But I am also an American so therefore I respect the laws of our individual states because afterall we are the United States of America. If gay marriage is legal in a particular state then the couple should have all benefits and rights afforded to any other couple. Wherever you stand on the issue, if you don't like your state's laws then you can move. Yes, easier said than done more often than not. Take community property states, for instance. If you live in a community property state and you start accumulating wealth and you are married but you are into something that might cause you to get a divorce (adultery for instance). You might want to move to a non-community property state and stand less chance of having to split a lot of money with your future ex-spouse. Take capital punishment states as another example. Not a good place to lose your temper and kill. You will be judged in Texas before you meet your maker if you get convicted. That is just the law. Growing medical marijuana is legal in some states but not in others. I could go on and on. The legality/non-legality of gay marriage is at this time a state issue. I have a cousin who is gay. He knows I love him and it does not come with a seal of approval just as it does not come with a lecture. Going mum now.


I respect your opinion, but have something to add as you commented on states and their particular rights. If every state has very different stances on a particular subject, then are we really the UNITED States of America or simply a bunch of people with _similar_ ideas living in relative proximity to each other?


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## Little Hooves (Jan 4, 2012)

I'm throwing in my two cents because this comes close to home for me. My brother is gay. He spent most of his life trying NOT to be gay and came close to taking his very life because he didn't want to live in a world that hated him for what he was. Honestly, why do people insist this is a choice? Why would someone want to chose a life where they would be cursed and tortured, and even killed by those who fear them? With the emergence of new scientific research, it really frustrates me that many people still refuse to see.

I am optimistic though, since sympathies are growing in the younger generations and the gay rights movement is getting bigger. As more research uncovers the biological truth behind the mystery of sexual attraction, it will eventually release a tidal wave of demand for change that cannot be ignored. If a marriage is state-issued, then it should be a matter of the state. States do not allow marriages of those who cannot legally give consent or more than two individuals. But while it issues marriages for two consenting individuals, why does it exclude two consenting individuals of the same sex?

Allowing gay marriage is a step in the right direction for humanity, and for human civil rights. Come on now. Be fair. Either share state-issued marriage with every competent adult over 18, or else no one truly deserves to have the state recognize their union.


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## Little Hooves (Jan 4, 2012)

alongman said:


> I respect your opinion, but have something to add as you commented on states and their particular rights. If every state has very different stances on a particular subject, then are we really the UNITED States of America or simply a bunch of people with _similar_ ideas living in relative proximity to each other?


There is a federal law that marriage in one state must be honored and recognized in another. This law extends to specific state-issued licenses, like marriage and drivers licenses, and is the reason why we don't have to get remarried when we move to the other side of the country or just across the state line, and why you are allowed to drive in other states with your out-of-state license. This is also the reason for the heated debate. Opponents don't like the idea of states issuing marriage licenses to homosexual couples because this would open the door for the Fed to require other states to honor that license. This is why many states have been amending their constitutions to not allow - specifically - same-sex marriage. It is a shame, because much like prohibition was a black mark on the US Constitution, I believe any state that has passed this amendment or has it on their ballot and may pass it will find themselves with that same black mark on their governing papers.


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## Jill (Jan 5, 2012)

One thing about the religious argument in that marriage is a religious institution... You couldn't prove it by me! Harvey and I were married at the Justice of the Peace's house and religion played no part. That's not to say we are not religious, but our marriage was a state affair, not a church one.


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## shelia (Jan 5, 2012)

The ritual of committing to each other is one thing. Being bound legaly is quite another. There are some good benefits, but also some things that aren't so great.

You are in a way giving up part of your own identity. If you allready have children you are putting the new person in your life ahead of them legaly. You give up certain rights as an individual. They are tied to your credit and ownership of everything.

The good things are that you can put them on your insurance, retirement, and social security. They are considered family if you become ill. You can claim them as a dependant on your tax return.

I think it would be great to be able to choose one adult person for these things in some way other than marraige.

I suppose there are other reasons that I have not thought of.


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## Jill (Jan 5, 2012)

I said it on the other (now closed) thread, but I want to bring it into this thread as well... Something to ponder actually is why any marriage should be government sanctioned in the first place... or maybe flip that, why government should be the source of marriage validation. That is a little frightening when you look at it in a certain light.


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## KanoasDestiny (Jan 5, 2012)

If same sex marriage is legalized one day, how would you stop straight friends from marrying for medical/benefit reasons? How would you prove that two people aren't gay? I don't think the decision is a totally religious one. If everyone could marry/divorce anyone else at will, the pharmacutical and medical (not to mention others) companies would suffer, and the government can't have that.


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## Jill (Jan 5, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> If same sex marriage is legalized one day, *how would you stop straight friends from marrying for medical/benefit reasons?* How would you prove that two people aren't gay? I don't think the decision is a totally religious one. If everyone could marry/divorce anyone else at will, the pharmacutical and medical (not to mention others) companies would suffer, and the government can't have that.


I don't know. How do we currently stop male-female friends from doing this same thing? Or from marrying for citizenship reasons? *??? *The law of averages tells me this happens more often with male-female unions than same sex unions.


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## shelia (Jan 5, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> If same sex marriage is legalized one day, how would you stop straight friends from marrying for medical/benefit reasons? How would you prove that two people aren't gay? I don't think the decision is a totally religious one. If everyone could marry/divorce anyone else at will, the pharmacutical and medical (not to mention others) companies would suffer, and the government can't have that.


Would these places suffer from this? Maybe, maybe not. It is not really a two for one thing. Companies get group rates for people who are bound only by employment. most of the time when you add a spouse, you pay more money. Retirement seems to be phasing out anyway. If you paid into all of your life, why not be able to give it to someone you care about. Social Security is sort of the same way. it was created back when most of the time only one person worked. Now most of the time both people work and you can choose which one you draw from anyway.

It would be nice if people could partner up how they want.


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## alongman (Jan 5, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> If same sex marriage is legalized one day, how would you stop straight friends from marrying for medical/benefit reasons? How would you prove that two people aren't gay? I don't think the decision is a totally religious one. If everyone could marry/divorce anyone else at will, the pharmacutical and medical (not to mention others) companies would suffer, and the government can't have that.


There's nothing to say I couldn't marry one of my unemployed female friends and have the insurance benefit of that as well. So, straight people won't/don't screw the system, only gay people?


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## SampleMM (Jan 5, 2012)

I missed the other thread as it was Christmas time and I was too busy but I will gladly give my opinion, now. I am all for same-sex marriage. Why shouldn't these people have the same rights as everybody else? As far as religion goes.......I am Catholic. I went to Catholic elementary and middle school plus I went to a Catholic college but I don't follow everything they preach such as birth control. I'm sorry but why am I going to let a religion tell me not to practice birth control. I feel that this is the same type of thing.........There is no religion that is going to tell me that gay people should be discriminated against. By not allowing them the benefit of marriage it is discriminatory in my eyes. Since my children were little, I've always said you need to be accepting and loving of all people and to me that is being more of a Christian than any church that preaches against a gay lifestyle.


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## Riverrose28 (Jan 5, 2012)

I was reading and interested in the other thread, as well as this one, don't remember who asked for different people to chime in, but I'm willing to express my thoughts on this matter.

Yes I'm a Catholic, but aren't we all created equal? Aren't we all Americans? Shouldn't we all have equal rights?

Seems to me not too long ago that women couldn't vote because of their gender, that Native Americans and African Americans couldn't vote becuase they were of a different race. A white woman couldn't marry a person of color. These things were all changed thanks to having their voices heard, by marching, protesting, sit ins, etc. you get the picture. Some people are afraid of spiders and snakes, why, becuase they don't take the time to get to know them, the same thing applies to people of different cultures and lifestyles. I believe that some day gay marriage will be allowed in all states of the Union, if enough people make their voices heard.

I'm not the most educated person and sometimes I have a hard time communicating, but I hope you get my meaning.


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## KanoasDestiny (Jan 5, 2012)

*Alongman said...There's nothing to say I couldn't marry one of my unemployed female friends and have the insurance benefit of that as well. So, straight people won't/don't screw the system, only gay people?*

I never said anything about gay people in my post. I believe that people who are gay want marriage for the same legit reasons that straight people do, but I think same sex marriage would give "straight" people the opportunity to screw the system.

As I said in the other thread, I fully support gay marriage. My best friend's sister is a lesbian and I want her to have all of the same rights with her girlfriend that I have with my husband. However, after watching "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry" and my favorite, "Strange Bedfellows", I think allowing the same sex to marry would open a whole new can of worms that has absolutely nothing to do with people who are gay.


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## Ashley (Jan 5, 2012)

I still dont get how gay marriage would cause a can of worms.Straight friends now could marry for bennies and I actually know of a few that have.


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## Eohippus (Jan 5, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> *Alongman said...There's nothing to say I couldn't marry one of my unemployed female friends and have the insurance benefit of that as well. So, straight people won't/don't screw the system, only gay people?*
> 
> I never said anything about gay people in my post. I believe that people who are gay want marriage for the same legit reasons that straight people do, but I think same sex marriage would give "straight" people the opportunity to screw the system.
> 
> As I said in the other thread, I fully support gay marriage. My best friend's sister is a lesbian and I want her to have all of the same rights with her girlfriend that I have with my husband. However, after watching "I now pronounce you Chuck and Larry" and my favorite, "Strange Bedfellows", I think allowing the same sex to marry would open a whole new can of worms that has absolutely nothing to do with people who are gay.


Straight people can screw the system now though...? I too have known those who've done it. I've known gay couples who've married other gay couples (i.e. lesbian couple marries a gay couple) to receive benefits. After all, how do you prove now that two people who are getting married are really straight or really in love? It happens all the time where friends marry friends for benefits.


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## KanoasDestiny (Jan 5, 2012)

I'm not saying that it's right or that it doesn't currently happen. What I am saying is that if everyone decided to just marry their best friend to gain benefits, tax breaks, or whatever, the Government would not be ok with that. For example...a couple of years ago, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the cost to the federal government of extending employment benefits to same-sex domestic partners of certain federal employees (making no mention of additional costs such as Social Security and inheritance taxes) would be $596 million in mandatory spending and $302 million in discretionary spending between 2010 and 2019. These are the benefits including health insurance, survivor annuities, compensation for work-related injuries, life insurance, and vision/dental benefits. I'm just thinking that if straight people can marry their best friend or room mate, and not have to go through the troubles that might arise from a man/woman marriage, alot more people would be willing to do it for the benefits they can get out of it. Not that I personally have a problem with it, or the people who currently do sham weddings. But the government would/does.

I didn't mean for this to sound like an attack or start a debate, I was simply asking how do you stop people from doing sham marriages if same sex marriages are legalized. I'm sorry if it came across as anything more than that.


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## susanne (Jan 5, 2012)

This pie chart says it all...


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## wcr (Jan 5, 2012)

I don't think the sham marriages argument holds water and the costs quoted that would cost the government is a drop in the bucket compared with what government wastes on frivolous things now. Just think how much government is making in selling marriage licenses. Maybe we should all stop getting legally married, the government loses revenue and gets a strong shot across the bow that we are fed up with them telling us who we can marry. I am not married but am in a committed relationship (man/woman) and I can get health insurance on my partners insurance as a domestic partner. I feel I am getting all the benefits that I want but don't have the responsibility of his financial liabilities as I am the major wage earner.

I can fully appreciate gays wanting to marry and have the same things that straight couples have. The wanting what you are told you can't have. The feeling that your love, commitment and having a family are LESS than what straight couples can have. I am getting old as dirt and remember the 60's (has it really been 50 years?) and the things my generation fought to change, and see the things that have been changed. The fact that some states are allowing same sex marriage is a positive sign. Who ever thought even one state would allow it much less several states following suit. I think as we raise our children to be accepting of others and start to become color blind, the barriers will start to fall.


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## vickie gee (Jan 5, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> I'm not saying that it's right or that it doesn't currently happen. What I am saying is that if everyone decided to just marry their best friend to gain benefits, tax breaks, or whatever, the Government would not be ok with that. For example...a couple of years ago, the Congressional Budget Office estimated that the cost to the federal government of extending employment benefits to same-sex domestic partners of certain federal employees (making no mention of additional costs such as Social Security and inheritance taxes) would be $596 million in mandatory spending and $302 million in discretionary spending between 2010 and 2019. These are the benefits including health insurance, survivor annuities, compensation for work-related injuries, life insurance, and vision/dental benefits. I'm just thinking that if straight people can marry their best friend or room mate, and not have to go through the troubles that might arise from a man/woman marriage, alot more people would be willing to do it for the benefits they can get out of it. Not that I personally have a problem with it, or the people who currently do sham weddings. But the government would/does.
> 
> I didn't mean for this to sound like an attack or start a debate, I was simply asking how do you stop people from doing sham marriages if same sex marriages are legalized. I'm sorry if it came across as anything more than that.


This has me grinning from ear to ear.

#1 (I am a government employee who pays $199 every two weeks for health insurance and last year I cancelled a much needed surgery because we could not afford the coinsurance and deductibles needed. Medicaid recipients can get the health benefits they need and remain unemployed and sleep late, stay up all night, go to the mall and fight the crowd to spend their welfare money on Nike retro air Jordans, then go to the racetrack or casino and spend some more welfare money gambling and then stop off at the grocery store to spend their food stamps before I get up at 3:45 am, feed horses, get ready for work, show up before 6 a.m., work my butt off for the government to earn my pay while watching people play the federal employee system. Some people show up, make good money to do nothing but socialize, facebook, internet shop, and disrupt people actually working. Then they can stay 4 hours overtime at $30 to $40 an hour to continue being nonproductive. I, on the other hand am too tired from actually working to even consider overtime, need to get home to take care of horses and dogs, cook, and get about 5 hours sleep before it starts again.

#2(I used to have a male roommate/landlord. Totally a business deal which later turned platonic. He used to joke about us getting married. It was a real sitcom. My Sunday School friends worried about "appearances". His main girlfriend worried about me, the female roommate. His other girlfriends worried about the main girlfriend, and me. Now the main girlfriend is his wife. At almost 50 he became a husband and father. Her 23 year daughter passed away this year and so they are raising a grandson same age as their daughter (real dad is in prison, and step-dad who is black does a good job of playing weekend dad). My now husband, then fiance used to hang out at roommate's home before any of us got married and entertain "everybody" (family, friends, extended family, etc) with his antics. My roommate was self employed and had some health issues. He used to ask him if I could marry him for love. Answer:no. Could I marry him for money. Answer:no. Could I marry him to put him on my health benefits. Answer:no.

#3(I later had a female roommate. She was in my Sunday School class and talked me into moving in with her. She gave me a better rate than the male roommate, had a housekeeper come every two weeks, the kitchen was always available for me as she did not cook, and she stayed out of my business (unlike the male roommate/landlord-become bigbrother). The thought of anyone thinking our relationship was more than roommates cracks me up! We were as different as day and night when it came to interests and hobbies. We did both love watching cartoons and Disney movies though and she liked my dog and my boyfriend.

The thought of a legal partnership with either of these two former roommates just to milk the system cracks me up. I love them both for who they are but seriously, how can you enter into a marriage just for legal benefits? My husband came along while I was happy in my own skin-looking for nobody. I think when you are not looking at all is when you are most likely to recognize that special person is looking at you.

Sorry for getting off topic. Where I had intended to go was that people also get a divorce to beat the system. Yesterday my beautician told me she knows of five couples who have divorced but live together so that both of them can draw disability. She said with married couples only one can draw disability. My oh my.


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## Matt73 (Jan 5, 2012)

Haven't read through these posts, didn't read through the last thread (I had a feeling it would just tick me off...and I've learned that, for the most part, you can't change people's minds). So...with that said, I'll keep it simple. In my 38 years and 18 years of those being an openly gay man, I've learned that homophobes and people that, generally, have "issues" with homosexuality are fearful of something within themselves. I'm not saying that homophobia and not agreeing with same-sex marriage are the same thing, necessarily. But why the heck do people care who anyone sleeps with and, furthermore, why are they worried about the "institution" of marriage being destroyed by gay marriage when the institution is non-existent in the first place? I don't endorse marriage and don't believe in the institution at all, between anyone (it's just a contract for tax/legal purposes). But I will attend marriages between my friends, gay and straight, because _they_ feel it is important; and it is moving and I feel privileged to be there to witness their vows. Fear or Love? It's that simple...


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## susanne (Jan 5, 2012)

In this life, when someone finds love, it's something to be celebrated, not questioned or criticized. As I said in the previous thread, it's become common place to ask "what would Jesus do?" I have no doubt that Jesus would welcome gays and lesbians with open arms.


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## Matt73 (Jan 5, 2012)

susanne said:


> In this life, when someone finds love, it's something to be celebrated, not questioned or criticized. As I said in the previous thread, it's become common place to ask "what would Jesus do?" I have no doubt that Jesus would welcome gays and lesbians with open arms.


XOXOXOX



Wise woman, you are, Susanne (did I sound like Yoda there lol?).


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## alongman (Jan 6, 2012)

Matt73 said:


> XOXOXOX
> 
> 
> 
> Wise woman, you are, Susanne (did I sound like Yoda there lol?).


A little, but that's why we love you Matt!


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## Jill (Jan 6, 2012)

Susanne, I agree!!! People who find love are lucky! And love is real to those who feel it -- not a choice, just a blessing.


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## Jill (Jan 6, 2012)

GLENN BECK said:


> "I'm for civil marriage. All the rights, civil marriage, that's fine…. My solution is take government out of marriage entirely. What is government doing in marriage?...


The above is a quote from today, I believe, and I couldn't agree more.

Source: http://www.theblaze....t-gay-marriage/


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## Eagle (Jan 6, 2012)

susanne said:


> In this life, when someone finds love, it's something to be celebrated, not questioned or criticized. As I said in the previous thread, it's become common place to ask "what would Jesus do?" I have no doubt that Jesus would welcome gays and lesbians with open arms.


I will try and put this clearly without upsetting anyone. Please remember that I live in Italy THE catholic country.

"what would Jesus do?" This is exactly what I ask myself daily living in this country watching the Pope getting fatter and richer telling "his" priests to preach to us about being generous whilst children all over the world die of hunger.

"what would Jesus do?" To the priest that touched my breasts and closed me in his room to try and have his way whilst I was alone.

I could go on but I don't think it is appropriate!

Do I agree with gay marriage? Absolutely! What has it to do with me?

Do I agree with church weddings? Absolutely NOT. Will I or my children ever go to a catholic church again? Hopefully not.

As to gay couples adopting I think it should be considered, there are many children in terrible situations but they have a mummy and a daddy so that makes it o.k? I personally think that some of these children would grow up way more balanced with 2 mummies or 2 daddies than a drunk mum and a violent father (just an example)

I do Hope I haven't offended anyone as that was not my intention, if so I deeply apologise.

Renee


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## Riverrose28 (Jan 6, 2012)

Eagle said:


> I will try and put this clearly without upsetting anyone. Please remember that I live in Italy THE catholic country.
> 
> "what would Jesus do?" This is exactly what I ask myself daily living in this country watching the Pope getting fatter and richer telling "his" priests to preach to us about being generous whilst children all over the world die of hunger.
> 
> ...


Renee, I've been in your shoes and can sympathize, but a priest is a man, Jesus was not. I no longer go to mass either, I have my own reasons as you have yours, thank you for your insites and confession.


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## susanne (Jan 6, 2012)

I believe that Jesus was a man, rather than some supernatural being. Does that lessen my respect for him? Not at all -- in fact, to me it is even more amazing that a human being had his wisdom and compassion and the influence on humankind two millenia later.

Jill, I agree with you as to civil marriage. While Keith and I were married by a minister, he was chosen for his work with the homeless and poor in Portland, and our ceremony was not in a church, but in the woods where I grew up. Churches are within their rights to choose whom they marry, but if the church is willing, why shouldn't those who want a religious ceremony have it?

I used to think civil unions were at least a decent compromise until the homophobes went from objecting to gay marriage to attacking civil unions. The bigots simply want to control everybody else and suck the joy from the world.


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## alongman (Jan 7, 2012)

susanne said:


> I used to think civil unions were at least a decent compromise until the homophobes went from objecting to gay marriage to attacking civil unions. The bigots simply want to control everybody else and suck the joy from the world.


Well said!


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## Riverrose28 (Jan 7, 2012)

The bigots simply want to control everybody else and suck the joy from the world.

That is so the truth! My youngest daughter married a man of color, and my grandchildren are of color, we have lost some so called friends because of their bigotry and prejudice and fear of something they know nothing about. Not alose on my part, just theirs!


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## barnbum (Jan 8, 2012)

Great responses on this topic from the Republicans at the debate last night. They follow what I added to the last post--the closed one.

The reason why I have not--and will not again--reply to this post is because it's assumed by those in favor of gay marriage that those who are opposed are bigots/fearful/whatever other term you wish to attach. That is simply not the case--at least not with most. You can't seem to wrap around the idea that it is possible for one to love/respect/accept gays and their "lifestyle" (that word fits well) but not think it's acceptable/appropriate to change what marriage is, has been, and always will be--between man and a woman.

Some excerpts:

_Newt Gingrich said marriage was a "sacrament" long recognized in history as being between a man and a woman._

_ _

_"It is a huge jump from being understanding and considerate and concerned, which we should be, to saying we therefore are going to institute the sacrament of marriage as though it has no basis," he said. "It's something worth protecting." _

_ _

_Santorum was asked what should happen to couples who have married in New Hampshire since it became state law. Santorum said marriage was a federal issue._

_ _

_"We have to have one law. We can't have someone married in one state and not married in another. Once we are successful in establishing that, then this issue becomes moot," he said._

_ _

_Mitt Romney said he'd support domestic partnership benefits for gay couples, but stopped short of gay marriage or even civil unions._

_ _

_"To say that marriage is something other than the relationship between a man and a woman, I think, is a mistake," he said. "The reason for that is not that we want to discriminate against people or to suggest that gay couples are not just as loving and can't also raise children well. But it's instead a recognition that, for society as a whole, that the nation presumably would be better off if children are raised in a setting where there's a male and a female."_

_ _

_Jon Huntsman Jr. broke with the field by stating his support for civil unions._

_ _

_"On marriage, I'm a traditionalist. I think that ought to be saved for one man and one woman, but I believe that civil unions are fair. And I think it brings a level of dignity to relationships," he said._

_ _

_As the discussion winded down, Gingrich said the line of questioning showed "bias," reprising the role of media critic he had enjoyed in many past debates._

_ _

_"You don't hear the opposite question asked," he said, raising the issue of the Catholic church being forced to close adoption services because it won't accept gay marriage, among others. "The bigotry question goes both ways. And there's a lot more anti-Christian bigotry today than there is concerning the other side. And none of it gets covered by the news media." _

_Copyright © 2012, Los Angeles Times_


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## Norah (Jan 8, 2012)

Sorry I missed this topic . I dont see a problem in anyone getting married if they love eachother , gay, or not , the love , devotion , and respect is there




thats good enough for me . Funny , about religion ...I live in a very small Catholic village ...the people in the village are about the coldest , unloving , non christian people I have ever met ... Religion belongs in peoples hearts and should stay there, please dont connect love , marriage and religion with eachother , I dont see the connection . Alongman ... you want to get married , come here and do it : ) By the way ...marriage between man and woman , woman and woman , man and man ... is all about the indivual relationship , not what is written down on biblical paper . I got married in an office sitting at a confrence table while filling out paperwork in another lanuage ...didnt hurt my marriage one bit . A man filled out my "religion" section , and he wrote that i was Catholic , it was just better that way ...I am not Catholic ...I am not even religious lol ... life is too short to worry about details like that ...live , love and be kind , and leave your religious prefrences to yourself .

Kristen Torkington


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## bcody (Jan 8, 2012)

I did not post on the other thread, and only read part of it. I think that all of these Hollywood weddings have done a lot to undermine what marriage really is. I think that anyone that is truely in love should marry if they wish. Marriage should be about something, mean something and be a commitment between two people. Nothing about what a marriage means to me has anything to do with if you are the same sex or not. People need to define What a marriage is, not who it is between. If the Government wants to get involved, make people who are married for 72 days pay a fine to the Feds as part of there divorce.


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## alongman (Jan 8, 2012)

barnbum said:


> Great responses on this topic from the Republicans at the debate last night. They follow what I added to the last post--the closed one.
> 
> The reason why I have not--and will not again--reply to this post is because it's assumed by those in favor of gay marriage that those who are opposed are bigots/fearful/whatever other term you wish to attach. That is simply not the case--at least not with most. You can't seem to wrap around the idea that it is possible for one to love/respect/accept gays and their "lifestyle" (that word fits well) but not think it's acceptable/appropriate to change what marriage is, has been, and always will be--between man and a woman.
> 
> ...


Santorum also went on to say that gays' were comparable to capital murderists based on his religion........I'm pretty sure that who I sleep with is not even close to me killing someone.


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## Matt73 (Jan 8, 2012)

Norah said:


> Sorry I missed this topic . I dont see a problem in anyone getting married if they love eachother , gay, or not , the love , devotion , and respect is there
> 
> 
> 
> ...






Life is very simple. Be kind to one another and treat others the way you want to be treated. If it's not hurting anyone else, why do people care?! I don't get it! If your really concerned that God may be ticked off, let him/her/it deal with it in the end. I just dont understand the debate....I, honestly don't. Is it that religious people are concerned for my soul? Lol. Thanks, but just look after your own....


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## alongman (Jan 8, 2012)

Matt73 said:


> Life is very simple. Be kind to one another and treat others the way you want to be treated. If it's not hurting anyone else, why do people care?! I don't get it! If your really concerned that God may be ticked off, let him/her/it deal with it in the end. I just dont understand the debate....I, honestly don't. Is it that religious people are concerned for my soul? Lol. Thanks, but just look after your own....


I think that if God were that upset with me for living the life I have lived, then I would have been toast a few years ago. God and I have a relationship (maybe not the same as everyone elses, but still present) - I agree with Matt, let him judge me, not the people who claim to be Him or speak for Him.


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## Ashley (Jan 9, 2012)

I have been thinking about this topic all day, and figure out what and how to say what is on my mind. I am sure what I am about to type won’t even come close.

Many know the last few years have been rough. I worked at a state prison for 6 months before getting fired. Why did I get fired? I turned somebody in for sexual harassment. Had I not, I would have either quit or gotten fired later anyway. I went to work daily, sometimes 16 hours a day for 10 days straight. I got the looks, the comments and the fear. There was plenty of staff who would refuse to work with me because “they might catch something”. I love the job, but never in my life did I ever have to deal with the type of people and the issues I did there. When this all started to happen, I decided to get a tattoo…..I think it’s pretty self explanatory.






Fast forward to today. I have a beautiful and amazing 2 month old daughter. She has made my life complete. Many say I shouldn’t have had her, as its not right for a child to be raised by a gay parents. Well it seems in many people’s eyes I have set this child up for failure in more ways than one. Not only is she raised by a gay parent, she is raised by a single parent and she is mixed raced.

Yes you read right, raised by a single parent. I can a sure you that nobody would pick to be gay, it isn’t worth it. In the past few days/weeks I have heard many cruel names, such as faggot for one. I have also been told that I am controlled by the devil and that being gay isn’t a born way but rather a demon living within me. This only after saying I question something’s and whether or not God really is real.

However, I can assure everybody that I am not controlled by a demon. I have no desire to kill anybody or even hurt anybody. I don’t aspire to do any sort of crime. What I am is a very caring, loving single mother who will provide and care for my child to the best of my ability. She will be raised to have an open mind and accept all people regardless of color, gender or sexual preference. She will be raised to follow her dreams, and I hope that by continuing to pursue my master’s degree despite it not being very good timing, that I will set a good example for her. I will teach her not to let what others say keep her from being herself and doing what she wants with life. Is the path I wished for my life? No. Would I change it if I could? Most defiantly, however I can’t so I have to live with what I am given. Is this necessarily what I picked for her? No, but I can’t change others and despite my feeling of failure I know that I can give her what she needs.

Most of all I will teach my child to accept everybody and to not let anybody walk on her. I have learned in the past few weeks that those we love can at times cause us the most pain. I will teach her to not let those kinds of people hurt her, instead to try and help them, and to feel bad for them for they hate themselves so much they must hurt others around them to feel good about themselves.


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## Jill (Jan 9, 2012)

Isn't love a gift from God? I feel like it is.


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## alongman (Jan 9, 2012)

Jill said:


> Isn't love a gift from God? I feel like it is.


I guess God has this really crazy plan - give gay people children to love, nurture, and help grow into responsible people......yet he hates them and considers them an "abomination" (please excuse reference to last posted topic).


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## Jill (Jan 9, 2012)

Maybe part of the equation is an opportunity for people to resist the urge to pass judgments that aren't for them to make?

It's hard for me, too, to understand a fixation on private lives that don't impact the lives of others. I don't know of a way that people loving each other doesn't improve the karma of the world.

I am not "bible smart" (and don't strive to be!) but I am confident in my spirituality and faith. I don't think it needs to be nearly as complicated as some like to make it.


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## bcody (Jan 9, 2012)

Well said Jill.


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## Mona (Jan 10, 2012)

Ashley said:


> Fast forward to today. I have a beautiful and amazing 2 month old daughter. She has made my life complete. Many say I shouldn't have had her, as its not right for a child to be raised by a gay parents. Well it seems in many people's eyes I have set this child up for failure in more ways than one. Not only is she raised by a gay parent, she is raised by a single parent and she is mixed raced.
> 
> Yes you read right, raised by a single parent. I can a sure you that nobody would pick to be gay, it isn't worth it. In the past few days/weeks I have heard many cruel names, such as faggot for one. I have also been told that I am controlled by the devil and that being gay isn't a born way but rather a demon living within me. This only after saying I question something's and whether or not God really is real.
> 
> ...


That was BEAUTIFUL Ashley, and I personally wish you ll the best of luck with all your future endeavors.


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## ~Lisa~ (Jan 10, 2012)

_I just simply do not understand the reason for anyone to care_

Why does who anyone chooses to marry. love or just have sex with matter to me. How does it have any effect on my life?

The one thing I know is no matter what anyones life looks like on the outside that is no indication of what they choose to do behind closed doors. Everyone might or might not agree with any alternative lifestyle but your not agreeing should not affect the rights of another human being.

Seems to me the world can only be a better place if we appreciate the gift it is to see two people that love eachother, take care of eachother and make eachother happy.

That is what marriage is about- in reality that is what life is about , finding those who enrich our lives and make not only us better people but that lends to making the world a better place

What matters to me is people finding love - as far as sex who cares, 2 men 2 women - 2 women and a man - BDSM sex whatever- sex is just sex and believe me you have no idea who and what your neighbors and friends or family do behind closed doors and yet you are still part of their lives. Why should we put so much emphasis on what others do in the bedroom. How is that even a legitimate argument?

Granted I am not a religious person for my own reasons but what I do know is God is supposed to be the only one who judges (if you believe that) so what right does anyone else have to decide who is going to heaven or heck or who God loves or hates? Last I heard (but hey maybe things have changed since I have been to church) there was only one God and he was not walking around holding up mean and ignorant signs protesting one human being loving another.

If it is not for you - dont do it but dont let your own fears and ignorance stop anyone else from enjoying the sanctity of marriage which to me is more then being a man and a woman


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## Matt73 (Jan 10, 2012)




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## Norah (Jan 10, 2012)

the world can be a very cruel place sometimes . Fear and ignorance is something that is man made and we all have to deal with it on some level



Some are reminded of the fear and ignorance by the color of their skin, or by their birth place , or by being female or male . Women are raped by men evey few seconds in this world for no apperant reason other than being female and avalible at the time to vent anger .People , children are beaten for no reason , verbaly abused by their parents for no reason , and bullied by their peers. If you want to get married then there are places where you can do this and feel respected and loved as a human being wanting to join in marriage . I would just count your blessings , and the wonderful things you do have , and the fac you live in a place where you can express your feelings . Try to look at the good in life , and accept the struggles , the ignorant , and stupid people ...Thank god your not one of them ; )


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## ErikaS. (Jan 10, 2012)

There was a news article posted by one of my friends in FB that talked about a baker in Des Moines that didn't want to make a cake for a lesbian couple who where getting married because of her religious convictions. I commented to the effect that this is America and as she is a small business owner, she has the right to refuse service to anyone... BUT I will not be buying cakes from her bakery (because of my convictions). Some guy commented on my post accusing me of wearing Birkenstocks and driving a Suburu and told me that baker doesn't need any of my paltry money... Yeah me in Birkenstocks and a Suburu



. Maybe he saw that I was born in CA. idk. Ahhh, gotta love the midwest <sigh>.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 11, 2012)

Erika, I have seen first hand, more than once, how fb...for such a large grouping of people...has a very small collective mind.



ErikaS. said:


> There was a news article posted by one of my friends in FB that talked about a baker in Des Moines that didn't want to make a cake for a lesbian couple who where getting married because of her religious convictions. I commented to the effect that this is America and as she is a small business owner, she has the right to refuse service to anyone... BUT I will not be buying cakes from her bakery (because of my convictions). Some guy commented on my post accusing me of wearing Birkenstocks and driving a Suburu and told me that baker doesn't need any of my paltry money... Yeah me in Birkenstocks and a Suburu
> 
> 
> 
> . Maybe he saw that I was born in CA. idk. Ahhh, gotta love the midwest <sigh>.


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