# Dwarf Question.....



## Tremor (Apr 3, 2011)

We have a 2010 foal who in all honestly we assumed she was a dwarf. She had a 50/50% chance of being so, and at birth we thought she was. We honestly swore that she was. I mean, it wasn't something that we were proud or wanted to do, but it was a definite change from some dwarf owners refusing to accept the fact that their little horse was in fact a dwarf.

I better start out with her parents.

Sire: Dagnillos Crown Jewels (A Known Dwarf Producer)

http://www.allbreedp...os+crown+jewels







Dam: RJ Double B Bit A Honey (Known Dwarf Producer and Possible Dwarf Herself)

http://www.allbreedp...e+b+bit+a+honey






*Continued into Next Post due to Pictures. *


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## Tremor (Apr 3, 2011)

*Continued. *

Now, I would also like to say that this was NOT a planned breeding. We had both horses separated from each other for the whole 2009 breeding season. Lo and behold that a family member let the stallion out with her. August 10th, 2010 a beautiful little miracle foal was born.

Connor (At Birth):
















Yesterday (8 months old):











Me, and some other people could not believe that she was so.....small and refined. Proportioned even! She is about 22'' tall and has grown about 3-4'' since she was born. The only thing that I see "off" about her conformation is her neck, which is short. Heck, her sire couldn't fix everything Honey (Her dam) through into the mix. But, he sure did fix A LOT! Her joints aren't big at all. The pictures make her knees look big, but they aren't. Its the fur. I apologize for the shoddy clipping. All four pairs of clippers quit on me.

I'm just very curious as to what you guys think of her. I am stumped. My mom is stumped. All of my internet buddies are stumped.

We have no stallions or anything that could harm Connor or her dam. No more foals. I promise. We delivered her sire to his new home today. All we have now are:

Bow- mare

Teddy- gelding

Honey- mare

Pete- gelding

Connor- filly

Sweetheart Raindrop- filly

So, no worries in that department.

If she is a dwarf, what do you think she'll look like?

Um, thanks for reading this; even though I'm sure you guys had more important things to do than read my useless thread. I apologize.

-Julia


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## Tremor (Apr 3, 2011)

To whomever voted,

Thank you for doing so. I'm looking for any imput. The more votes Yes or No the better I'll feel. This is the best way for me to get my answer since there is no genetic testing.

Thanks again!


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 3, 2011)

i voted yes...honestly, something about her just screams dwarf to me, same with her mom.

i could very well be wrong but thats what my inner voice is telling me lol.

she is very cute though





EDITED BY ADMIN


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## Tremor (Apr 3, 2011)

Molly said:


> i voted yes...honestly, something about her just screams dwarf to me, same with her mom.
> 
> i could very well be wrong but thats what my inner voice is telling me lol.
> 
> she is very cute though


Thank you. That's what I was looking for.






My inner voice was telling me the same thing when she was born.



Plus, there's nothing that could be said about this topic that can offend me. I've heard it all about this girl. People seem to think she's the scum of the planet and not the miracle baby that I know. Their loss. *shrugs*


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## Tremor (Apr 3, 2011)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> I'm the one who voted and I'll tell you, his "at birth" pictures I wasn't sure, but the ones of him growing I think are showing that he is getting more and more "dwarfy" if that's a word. He's beautiful, but to me, on the "side views" he has no neck, and although his body looks long--he has very short little legs. Also there is "something" in his face that has the "roughness" of a dwarf -- perhaps the longer bottom jaw with his lower lip protruding.
> 
> There are many kinds of dwarfs, but he appears to me to be an Achondroplasia dwarf.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for your reply. I've had her called a Diastrophia dwarf and Achondroplasia as well. Exactly what I was looking for in replies. Honest answers to halt my wandering thoughts. Perhaps I'm just lucky in her physical characteristics?

It will be very interesting to watch her grow up for sure.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 3, 2011)

Hi





I voted yes. To me the baby pics said yes due to the length of neck being shorter than the length of head. Other characteristics are very subtle in the pictures you provided. The current pics are very obvious in my opinion. Also, I believe the dam exhibits strong visual characteristics as well.

I applaud you for coming to the board and asking for education.



I am not familiar with your stallion or where he may have gone, but if you haven't, you may want to inform them he is a carrier. IMO, carriers should never be bred, but I do realize not everyone agrees with that line of thinking.

Your little one is adorable and obviously well loved.


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## Tremor (Apr 3, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Hi
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree with everything said here, lol. Connor has her dam's neck. Short. I myself am unable to see the subtle signs with my untrained eye, but I am sure that they're there!

We did tell the owners that he was a carrier and they were planning on gelding him. They were going to use him as a pet. Just something to have fun with.

We do love her. Her personality shows it. She's spoiled as all get out. Spunky too!

Thanks again!


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## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 3, 2011)

Tremor said:


> I agree with everything said here, lol. Connor has her dam's neck. Short. I myself am unable to see the subtle signs with my untrained eye, but I am sure that they're there!
> 
> We did tell the owners that he was a carrier and they were planning on gelding him. They were going to use him as a pet. Just something to have fun with.
> 
> ...


Kudos to you for informing them! That type of honesty is refreshing.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 3, 2011)

Tremor said:


> People seem to think she's the scum of the planet and not the miracle baby that I know.



thats horrible! just because she's different doesnt mean she's scum! some people





thats like saying someone with autism is scum just because they're different! people can be terrible.

i think she's adorable


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## Sandee (Apr 3, 2011)

I voted yes. To me the forehead is pronounced ( domed) and the neck short. It also looks like she may have an over bite (although I've seen others whose bite is on have that [what I call] ugly elongated lip). She appears to have gotten the mare's head ( although it's difficult to see the mare's face buried in the hay). Other than that she doesn't look "bad" really. If it were years ago, she'd probably pass as a "cute little horse" but people are now more aware of the dwarfy looks.

By the way, thanks for having what it takes to ask and post. It's refreshing and a good way for many to learn.


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## Carolyn R (Apr 3, 2011)

It is great you are opening yourself up to this conversation. I have to say, as others did, it is obvious in the 3rd, 4th, and 5th photos. Her head is as long as her neck, the third photos she is extremely thick in appearance and the last two photos her body looks long in comparison to the short length of neck.

Dwarfs tend to have an extremely affectionate and easy going spirit about them, sometimes even choosing human companionship over that of othert equines.

Kudos to you for being so open about her.





I am sure she is loved.


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## ohmt (Apr 3, 2011)

I say no but I bet she is a dwarf carrier. If you go to the dwarf part of the forum on here where john eberth answers questions you will learn a ton. There are a lot of badly conformed minis out there and many times people label them as dwarf when they are not. Watch the legs-they will tell you. I don't think her dam is a dwarf either based on her legs, but she does not have good conformation and is a dwarf carrier with some dwarf characteristics peaking through. Definitely read some of John's threads. He explains alot about dwarfs and their genetics. Many people posted pics of their horses asking him if they were dwarf or not. Most of the time he said no despite many people telling them the horse was. I say no to dwarf, yes to badly conformed.

P.s. how's your preggy girl doing?


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## horsehug (Apr 3, 2011)

OHMT,

I checked "I do not know" but I tend to agree with you. I'd love to hear John's opinion. I value his input tremendously and have talked with him about dwarfism for years. I am anxiously awaiting his tests to be available.

Susan O.


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## Blackwater Farm (Apr 4, 2011)

This is a tough one! There are certain things that make me want to say yes, the domed head and short neck like the others have mentioned. But I also see the point of OHMT in that she may be a carrier with some minimal dwarf characteristics showing through. Her legs dont look bad, again like OHMT said it will show in the legs too. She also doesn't have that rouched (sp?) back either. I CANNOT believe that anyone would think that such a cute little girl would be anything close to scum. That is just crazy! Just because she's a little different doesnt mean she doesnt have a purpose in life. My gelding is a little dwarfy too I think and if anyone were to say anything remotely bad about him I would probably have to deck 'em cause he's the love of my life!!!! Other than the hubby of course!!! As long as you love her and she brings joy to your life than she is just as precious as any other of the horsie angels in our lives and that is all that matters!


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## bluerogue (Apr 4, 2011)

I voted no. I agree that she is badly conformed, as is her dam. Neither of them need to be bred. Both of them show dwarf characteristics. They both have short necks, big heads, but their leg bones are not too short (cannon bones aren't markedly shorter than they "should" be). I don't see roached backs, or pot bellies. I have a reputation among my friends as a hip nazi... If a horse doesn't have a good hip, chances are I won't like it. Neither of your girls have good hips. Their hips are short, steep, and lack depth. The filly's hip is better than her dams, however. So, no, I don't think they are dwarves themselves, but I can see that they could carry the gene. I also don't think they are very well conformed, which is why we are wondering.

I had a horse who also showed a dwarf characteristic, and I wondered about him. His one foal (a whoops from an intruder trespassing and opening gates) was also a funny looking child. But, while they were not well conformed, and had a dwarf characteristic, they weren't dwarves (John Eberth himself said they weren't, just poorly conformed). They were cute, small, sweet, and everyone loved them. They both had what I call very extreme arab type heads, and tended to be very easy keepers, which added to the look that they could have been dwarves (tended to get big fat bellies- add that to their heads, and voila, instant dwarf accusation). Danny has what arab people would call a Jibbah (or so the arab enthusiast told me it was called- apparently it's a sought after thing in arabs). You could cup your hand on his forehead, it wasn't flat. But it also wasn't domed. He has an extreme dish, and his bite was off for a couple years as a youngster, but it came back and is straight now, or was when I sold him. His head could give people the impression that he might be a dwarf, it is so dished. Danny (the sire) is now a gelding, living with a very happy young man, and his son is sadly deceased. Echo managed to crawl under a fence at 4 months old, and ate some mushrooms. Within a week, his liver and kidneys had failed, and we lost him. I'm trying out the attachment thing... hopefully it works. Danny is a silver buckskin, so if you see a silver buckskin pic here, that's him. This was taken right before he was gelded, and went to his new home. He was 6 here. If it doesn't work, and anyone wants to see him, feel free to ask.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 4, 2011)

I voted Yes.

A the moment everything that is known about Dwarfs is educated (some of it, admittedly very educated) guess work. We do not know even if the dwarfism is recessive or dominant. or how the supposed different forms of dwarfism (which may or may not be related) are expressed.

The dam appears to be a dwarf, the sire is known to "carry" dwarfism (I assume he has sired dwarfs?) so the foal had a well over 50/50 chance (sorry, useless at %) of being a dwarf, and I think she definitely is. You appear to have her life mapped out for her and I think that is really great, you are obviously a good owner, and is hard that you have had to learn such a lesson so early on, but really valuable, too. That which does not kill you will only make you stronger!

I think her dwarfism will become more pronounced as she grows older, and I can already see a few problems with her feet- you might want to get your farrier to show you how to pare her as I think it is going to be well worth your while to be able to do her far more often than the other horses.

I do commend your attitude- have you joined the Dwarf Forum yet, it would be a good thing to do, I think.


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## bannerminis (Apr 4, 2011)

I voted yes as I just see a dwarf granted a minimal one and as the others said its the shape of the head, short neck and limbs. The mare looks dwarfy but its not the best pic.

The sire if he were mine and a known dwarf producer as you said yourself he would now be minus his tackle and be living the life of a happy little gelding.

Lovely to see how much you care for your minis and your little one is not the scum of the earth and brings you joy and is your little miracle



.


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## Manyspots (Apr 4, 2011)

wow what a shock this AM to see that your stallion is a known dwarf producer! are you sure it is not the mares he has bred previously that are dwarf producers? I knew your sires stallion when Dagnillos owned him and he has some nice offspring out there. And I own the dam, who sired our AMHR National Champion 30 & Under Country Pleasure Driving Stallion. We are waiting for a foal by him now, gotta say this scares the heck out of me. Your dam of the little filly is obviously not a good candidate but your stallion from just looking at doesn't say dwarf producer to me at all. Our stallion is Timberviews Santiago


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Manyspots- John Eberth has said he believes all dwarfism types to be homozygous autosomal recessive which means I comes from both parents.

Rabbitsfizz- to what I wrote to manyspots, that is what I have read from John's work. Is there some new research that I haven't seen that points towards any of the types being dominant?

Also there is no such thing as a minimal dwarf to those that have used the term on here. A horse either is or isn't, there is no in between. A heterozygous carrier may have that recessive gene compete with the dominant one thus giving some dwarf 'characteristics'. I saw a few people one here say she is achondroplasia and she is not. That is characterized by the 'bad' legs only and this filly does not have that. The short neck is not a characteristic of that type. A horse can exhibit many characteristics of dwarfism and not be a dwarf.

I apologize for any typos is advance- i'm using my phone to type this


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## Contessa (Apr 4, 2011)

I voted yes. The dam is obviously dwarf and if as you say the sire is a "known dwarf producer" then he carries the dwarf gene. Both sire AND dam need the gene to produce a dwarf. To Manyspots: sorry for your shock but this stallion carries the dwarf gene, you cannot blame the resulting foal on the mare alone. Threads like this are so educational to all of us, glad it was started. As for the little filly, she IS NOT SCUM!(I too would deck the person that said this to you) She is a living creature and although not perfect, she deserves all the love and attention you would would give any other horse.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

Manyspots said:


> your stallion from just looking at doesn't say dwarf producer to me at all.



if memory serves me right, a horse can easily carry the dwarf gene without looking dwarfy themselves.

it also takes two parents with the gene to produce a dwarf, and lil Conner here certanly looks like a dwarf.

ETA: minimal dwarfs are entirely possible. Quoted from mini-horse.org:

"Equine dwarfism has a complete range of expression from almost-imperceptible (off-bite, short neck) to profound and crippling."

after reading more about dwarfism and looking at pics of your mare and Conner, i think both look like minimal dwarfs.

it looks like Conner's dam's head is longer than her legs and she has a pot belly. Conner has a really short neck with, what looks like, a 'domed' head.

i may be wrong, i'm just saying what i see


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## Dona (Apr 4, 2011)

Manyspots said:


> wow what a shock this AM to see that your stallion is a known dwarf producer! are you sure it is not the mares he has bred previously that are dwarf producers? I knew your sires stallion when Dagnillos owned him and he has some nice offspring out there. And I own the dam, who sired our AMHR National Champion 30 & Under Country Pleasure Driving Stallion. We are waiting for a foal by him now, gotta say this scares the heck out of me. Your dam of the little filly is obviously not a good candidate but your stallion from just looking at doesn't say dwarf producer to me at all. Our stallion is Timberviews Santiago


Just wanted to mention here, that many dwarf producers do NOT show any signs at all, of being a dwarf "carrier". There are known National Champions who are excellent examples of the breed, who have produced dwarfs. So, basically....it can be very difficult to look at a horse & determine whether or not it carries the dwarf gene. Yes, it IS obvioius in some, but definitely not all.


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Mollys run- there are different types of dwarfism with different characteristics and varying severity but there is no such thing as a minimal dwarf. It is a made up term and used much too loosely.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

ohmt said:


> Mollys run- there are different types of dwarfism with different characteristics and varying severity but there is no such thing as a minimal dwarf. It is a made up term and used much too loosely.



i have to disagree....i think that a dwarf that only has an off bite and a short neck is quite minimal compared to the ones that are on mini-horse.org. thats just my opinon


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

I have never been to mini-horse.org but I have to question it's validity if it says a horse with a bad bite and short neck is a dwarf. There are 4 types of dwarfism I believe that have been identified and none are characterized by just a bad bite and short neck. Achondroplasia is the most 'minimal' you can get although I suppose that may be depending on perspective.

I wish I could copy and paste on my phone. John Eberth himself is the one who said minimal dwarf was a made up term. A horse either is or isn't a dwarf. It would be more appropriate to say minimal characteristics maybe?


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## Manyspots (Apr 4, 2011)

Dona that is right there have been National Champions producing ,now I am scared. I find Johns study very interesting and really am starting to agree with what I have been told at ISU equine vet clinic. I used to be offended but really think that they are correct in calling our minis, man produced mutants. I didn't like the term mutants, but am leaning toward now after a few years with the minis that they more than likely all carry recessive dwarf genes that will now and then in breedings can click and produce a dwarf. Dona, you are right I have heard others Champ horses produce several nice foals and then a dwarf, or vise versa. They are all special little creatures be they Champions or dwarves and we as breeders need to be aware, anything can and does happen when we tend to play with Mother Nature. Now, back to stall cleaning and some serious thinking......


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Ok I figured out how to copy and paste on my phone-yay!

I think everyone who commented on this thread should go to this link: http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=86368&pid=926940&st=0entry926940

Look at the description and pictures of the colt and John's response. I think you will all be surprised.

Manyspots-i really don't think all minis are carriers or 25% of them would be dwarf, but there are quite a few. I think now that people are more aware we will cut that down the percentage quite a bit.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 4, 2011)

I am on the fence over the "minimal dwarf" thing- I think that it is more than possible that if a horse such as one of mine has three white socks and is a minimal Tobiano, that a horse showing just a few obvious characteristics of dwarfism can validly be called a "minimal Dwarf". As to characteristics, I actually bow to Lil Bits forum on this, they are all dwarf owners and they know what they are speaking about. I know JE is investigating all the genetic side of it (I had thought there were found to be FIVE sorts? but I could be wrong) but I think the info gathered "at the coal face" is also very, very important.


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## horsehug (Apr 4, 2011)

OHMT,

I agree with all you have said (And Dona too). Like I said, I have emailed John about this topic for years and picked his brain and read everything he has written and followed his research.

He still hopoes to have his tests ready as soon as possible! It takes lots of lab work but he is very sure about certain things, like that it takes the gene from both parents to produce one. He is also sure there are some minis that do not carry one, like you said. But a huge number of them do.

And definitely many many minis including lots of champions, that show no signs .......are carriers.

I, for one, am very much looking forward to when the tests are offered. Once we have the tests, we can responsibly and knowingly avoid ever breeding a carrier of a certain type to another carrier of that type, which practice would avoid ever producing a dwarf.

Susan O.


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks Susan



I would love to be able to pick John's brain. I volunteer in a lab and help with some gene recombination experiments and there is so much work that goes into the experiments and studies that scientists do so I really appreciate all that John has and is doing. I also can't wait for the tests to come out. That will be a very important day for miniature horses.


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## Manyspots (Apr 4, 2011)

ok I have a question....(remember I was out thinking doing stalls...) How far back can we trace or will John trace on pedigrees that we/he thinks are the dwarf carriers? I got to thinking about the dam of this gals former stallion. She can't be honestly traced back any further even though there is a pedigree listed. When she was purchased it was felt years ago there was a possible mix up on the registration of her and another horse. Nothing strange was noticed until the dam started producing appys! and she herself developed appy characteristics which wouldn't be possible with horses listed on pedigree. Sadly there was another mare similar in color when purchased and the owner had many horses believed a few years later he gave wrong papers with this mare. After I purchased this mare I was told about the mix up but didn't really care as I liked the mare for herself.( hindsight should have just had her papers read unknown) Of course this is an old mare, not producing any more but there are many horses that I am sure are not offspring of who they have listed on their pedigree. Now with DNA we can better know who is producing what. Just curious how many generations back to look? I think doing DNA is the best step forward, ever done. (although I know there are ways around that too. sad)


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

I believe on one of the threads where people could ask John questions they asked something similar. He was talking grandparents and beyond that said it didn't _really_ matter as the percentages start getting pretty low. That being said, there is still a chance that if a great grandparent or great great grandsire/dam produced a dwarf that it was passed on down the line to the great or great great grandfoal. If a great grandsire/dam produced a dwarf then there's a 50% chance they would pass on a gene to the grandsire/dam then a 50% chance from there to the sire/dam and then another 50% chance to the foal. So that's 1/2^3 or 12.5% chance the foal is a carrier. Of course you have to take into account the percentages from the other side too and that may increase them.


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## horsehug (Apr 4, 2011)

Lavonne,

I am really not sure if he would have any way to do that. You would have to ask John that question.

I know he needed blood from dwarfs for a long time in his research and from their parents if possible, but am not sure if he is beyond that now. I also do not think he would just speculate on anything. And we all know that lots of pedigrees from the past have loads of mistakes on them, some honest mistakes and some that were not.

He is very very busy and I wish so much that I was going to be able to go to his open forum about his research at the Little King Spring sale and seminar April 15 - 17. His Seminar Forum is scheduled to be at 3 pm on Sat April 16 in case anyone gets a chance to go. I sure wish I was closer to Indiana!

Susan O.


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Rabbitsfizz-from John's research that he posted on here there had been 4 different types, BUT that was a couple of years ago I believe and they make progress every day so you could be right with the 5. ETA: You are correct! There are 5





In the words of John on the minimal dwarf thing:



> First there really is no "minimal dwarf" that has become a slang term for carriers that show alot of characteristics of dwarfism, and for dwarfs that are very "good". If you dont know if the horse is a carrier, are you sure it is just not bad conformation, again some people can be quite wrong sometimes, and most of the time they can be right. This is all subjective right now.
> There are normal horses with a recessive gene that might show some expressivity, as I explained in another thread, by Annette. The horse carrying that recessive gene is normal, in a sense. And a dwarf that is a "good" dwarf is not any less of a dwarf than a more severely affected dwarf of the same type, they are both homozygous for the dwarf gene. Again the expressivity manifested itself differently in each one, same as seen in humans.


And here is more that everyone should read that John had posted:



> To answer fully your question I need to take into account all 4 possible types I have characterized so far, however there could be more types than these or one of these types could be a combination of two of the four types. Please keep that in mind.Unfortunately, I do not have my reference pictures on a website so I cannot show them here, and they need to stay off of websites for now, until I can definitively state such differences.
> 
> The carriers of types 1 and 4 SOMETIMES show subtle features of a type 1 dwarf, i.e. extremely domed forehead, large prominant eyes, very exotic head overall. That being said however, it is NOT 100% true. In the carriers of types 1 and 4, height is extremely variable, bone structure and thickness extremely variable, length of neck extremely variable. I have samples of parents that produce a type 1 dwarf that really do not show signs in the head and are not very small in height, the only give away was pedigree. However other samples give all of the signs, head, off mouth (usually underbite), build, height, and pedigree.
> 
> ...



John has been doing research on this for years and has seen more dwarf horses than probably all of us combined. I trust his findings.


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## Mona (Apr 4, 2011)

Susan (or anyone that knows) have you spoken with John to know why the test is not yet available? The least I remember, was they thought by June of last year, (or maybe even the year before??) I think it was, that they would have the genetic/DNA testing available to test for dwarfism. Whatever happened with that? I have not heard anything since.


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## horsehug (Apr 4, 2011)

OHMT,

I totally trust John's findings also. Thanks for looking up those particular posts on the dwarf forum.

It is loaded with information.

Susan O.


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## horsehug (Apr 4, 2011)

Mona,

I always hesitate to speak for John because I do not want to misquote or get anything wrong.

But the last I heard (and I expect he will expound on this at the Little King Seminar in a couple of weeks) is that while he HAS isolated the genes for 4 of 5 types, he is waiting for the testing process (involving lab work) of ALL 5 to be complete so they can hopefully be offered all at once for testing.

He does not want people to be sending in hair for a couple of tests and then have to send in more etc. It could get pretty expensive and confusing. He wants them all to be offered at once.

Finding enough samples of type 2 originally, and then discovering a 5th type are part of what delayed his original time frame.

And John, if you read this please correct anything I may not have explained correctly.

Susan O.


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## Mona (Apr 4, 2011)

Thanks Susan!! That is sounding so very promising!! Even though I am no raising minis, it has been, and always will be a "dream" of mine to see that testing become available for our breed. It is soooo needed, and I hope John will soon be able to have all the scientific evidence and research needed to complete his mission. GREAT work John, and MANY THANKS to you and everyone that has contributed in any way to make this possible...to make this a REALITY for our breed! YAHOO!!!


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## Appsolutely (Apr 4, 2011)

I have a little filly that was born last Sept. and I know she is probably dwarf, I have not sent in pictures, because I have not been able to get them to go in. But Fiona (my filly) has this terible bite issue with her teeth. She now has 3 teeth in the bottom, but 1 in the top, And the first shock...she was born with them, and shed 2 of the bottom ones when she was about 3 months old.. And yes, she is able to eat, very slow though. She looks dwarf to me, but she may not to others. I had the dentist to come out when she was about 3-4 weeks old and he told me that you never know what to expect in a minis mouth. Neither he nor my vet thought she was a dwarf. She was my first foal. We had minis with my dad, but when he got sick in 2000 we sold them. we had bought this mare bred. So we had no idea. Both parents are registered AMHA. Is there a way to find out if they are dwarf producers? I did not think you could register them, but do I need to somehow do papers on her.I did not breed mom back, guess I was afraid to. Is there a way to find out if she has had other dwarf foals? But my girl has a short, thick neck. And of course,she is a sweet heart. I am sure she is a dwarf, but would like to know for sure. The odd thing is our friends towards the mountains had a foal 2 weeks before us and hers is a dwarf too (No horses related). You can see it more with theirs (tater). But you can tell Fiona is too! So if anyone hears when these test are avaiable, please post. I do not write in much, but I read on here everyday. Thank you so much for the thread and as always thanks for allowing us to learn from you all. I really do learn something everyday I get on here. cindyb


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## HGFarm (Apr 4, 2011)

Have not read all the comments but to me, the mare screams of dwarf, and it seems the older the foal gets, the more it is appearing to be. I would not breed that mare again- I dont see any obvious dwarf in the stallion, but did he sire previous ones when bred with mares like this or this mare?


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 4, 2011)

I have never been one to trust blindly and shall always ask questions.

Suggesting by continual inference that to do so is to not respect someone is the lowest of bullying and I do not respond well to bullying.

I do not care if it is JE or the Queen of England, I shall _always_ question, it is the only way to learn, and anyone who actually believes in what they are doing will welcome questions, as JE has always done.


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

> I have never been one to trust blindly and shall always ask questions.Suggesting by continual inference that to do so is to not respect someone is the lowest of bullying and I do not respond well to bullying.
> 
> I do not care if it is JE or the Queen of England, I shall always question, it is the only way to learn, and anyone who actually believes in what they are doing will welcome questions, as JE has always done.


I was not trying to bully you, I am very sorry if you took it that way. I am all for questioning as I do it every day. I know we don't often agree on things, but I very much respect you and your opinions and I always look forward to your responses. Without others to disagree with me, I don't think I'd do as much research as I do. I hope you haven't taken anything personally and you continue to push me to learn as I do greatly appreciate it and thank you.


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## horsehug (Apr 4, 2011)

Jane,

I apologize if anything I said came across as bullying. I never intended that in the least.

I applaud all for asking questions also.

I am only saying John has always answered my personal questions and has worked tirelessly in his research for many years and he has my trust and thanks.

You have every right to question. I never meant to imply otherwise.

Again I apologize for anything I said that offended you. It was not my intent.

Susan O.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

ohmt said:


> I have never been to mini-horse.org but I have to question it's validity if it says a horse with a bad bite and short neck is a dwarf. There are 4 types of dwarfism I believe that have been identified and none are characterized by just a bad bite and short neck. Achondroplasia is the most 'minimal' you can get although I suppose that may be depending on perspective.
> 
> I wish I could copy and paste on my phone. John Eberth himself is the one who said minimal dwarf was a made up term. A horse either is or isn't a dwarf. It would be more appropriate to say minimal characteristics maybe?



yes thats what i meant, minimal characteristics. to me minimal characteristicts and minimal dwarf kinda mean the same.


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## Tremor (Apr 4, 2011)

Gah.....I typed up my whole response and accidently went back to look through the thread. Forgive me if I begin to ramble....

@Lavonne,

I hope that I did not offend you when I outed Buddy as a dwarf carrier. I try to be brutally honest when I ask for help. The more truthful details the better. The more truthful I am the more honest responses I will get. When it came to Honey's (the dam) pregnancy thread, my truthfulness did NOT bring me a good light. I got a lot of criticism for my parents' shameful mistakes. A lot of members were banned for the way they treated me. There was nothing that I did wrong though. I tried to keep Honey away from Buddy that breeding year, and this year too. Obviously, a family member let them out together. I am proud to say though that we did urine test Honey in January and she came up negative. Hallelujah! Now, we have no stallions or uncut colts. If we ever do this year from Bow (my preggo mare) we do have an area to separate the colt. Hallelujah!

Now, just because Buddy produces dwarves does NOT mean any of his half brothers or sisters do. Remember that they have different sires.

A couple of you asked about Connor's bite. She has a fairly good bite, not perfect but not crooked like most dwarves.

A couple asked if the sire has produced dwarves with other mares. Yes. Three different mares, two with pretty good conformation.

A couple asked if he ever sired a dwarf with Honey, other than Connor. Yes. I will explain.

We bought our herd December 2005. We were new, new, new to miniatures. We did not think that Buddy would breed Honey due to her size. Well, we were wrong. April 2007 she gave birth to a chestnut appaloosa named Teddy. The birthing was horrendous. I've never seen a foaling so bad. Teddy, also was a miracle child.

I have pictures of Teddy as a foal, a yearlings, and from yesterday as a 4 year old.

Baby Pictures: (Sorry about the stall. We did NOT expect Honey to foal that day. My parents were gone and I just threw her into a stall so she could foal. I was in total panic mode when that happened...)












Yearling:






Three Years Old:






Four Years Old (Yesterday) :






From looking at Teddy, I see him as a dwarf. He, is one of the reasons why I was wondering about Connor. They just look so much different. I can count many things about Teddy that to me make him dwarfish.

I was reading this thread earlier today during school. It is interesting to see the different point of views of people on this subject. I was surprised to see people saying that she wasn't a dwarf. I would love to email John Eberth's about Connor, but I probably won't. He sounds like a busy man.

I must say, I was gutted to hear that there was a Type 5 dwarf. Does anybody have any info on that?

I will also say, I would LOVE to test any and all of my horses for the dwarf gene when the tests come out. (Even though I know most of them if not all are dwarves.) I would order one right away when they're available. As would many dwarf owners.

If Connor is a dwarf, then she's a dwarf. If not, then she's not. Doesn't really matter much to me. How could it? I don't do anything with her other than play with her and take her places. Heck, I'm surprised she puts up with bows as much as she does!

Thanks again guys.


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## horsehug (Apr 4, 2011)

Tremor,

All I know is that John said the 5th type and newest one he found is quite severe and an early abortion type.

If you read about the other 4 in the part OHMT quoted from John's dwarf forum he also stated that the type 4 is a lethal one that does not go to term.

So any dwarfs we see that make it full term or that are alive...... are either type 1, 2 or 3.

In other words the types 4 and 5 would sometimes be reasons a mare aborts.

Hope this helps.

Susan O.


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## Tremor (Apr 4, 2011)

horsehug said:


> Tremor,
> 
> All I know is that John said the 5th type and newest one he found is quite severe and an early abortion type.
> 
> ...


Thank you. I was wondering if Type 5 was lethal like Type 4. I don't know if I'm more saddened that I was right or if it were not lethal.


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## Matt73 (Apr 4, 2011)

Molly said:


> if memory serves me right, a horse can easily carry the dwarf gene without looking dwarfy themselves.
> 
> it also takes two parents with the gene to produce a dwarf, and lil Conner here certanly looks like a dwarf.
> 
> ...


But a dwarf is a dwarf. When saying "minimal", you're just saying that it's a less "extreme" form of dwarfism. Just like in people, there are "dwarfs" that are very proportioned and have few (if any) skeletal or physiological abnormalities (other than the small size). Then there are those have extreme deformities. Whether extreme or not...a dwarf is a dwarf.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

Matt73 said:


> But a dwarf is a dwarf. When saying "minimal", you're just saying that it's a less "extreme" form of dwarfism. Just like in people, there are "dwarfs" that are very proportioned and have few (if any) skeletal or physiological abnormalities (other than the small size). Then there are those have extreme deformities. Whether extreme or not...a dwarf is a dwarf.



i meant minimal characteristics. in my mind, its kinda like saying an appy that is all white with only a few black spots on its flank is still a minimal, or 'fewspot', appy. just like a dwarf is still a dwarf with only minimal signs. i think thats what people mean by 'minimal dwarf'.

there's no reason to start on arguement over it, people will still call it what they like


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## [email protected] (Apr 5, 2011)

You should be very proud of yourself Julie for wanting to be better informed/educated and for not continuing to breed either parent.

I did vote yes based on the head/neck proportions of your mare. Although I will say I HATE to judge a horse by a photo knowing how ugly I can make the nicest horse with a camera!

The sire in question, I hope he's gelded now? Siring three dwarves from different mares - he needs to have his equipment removed. Any responsible breeder would.

I had a couple of foals born here (mother/daughter dams) to a stallion that I questioned as having 'dwarfy characteristics'. I ran them by John Eberth, and he said no it's conformation, no dwarfy going on - which was a relief! The mares with slightly long backs than ideal and a stallion the same all under 30", which produce two foals with longer backs than I liked under 27". Long necks, pretty heads, perfect bites, good leg/body proportion, but too sausagey for my tastes. Not a good mix IMHO! Both went to lifer pet homes. The same horses bred to other stallions/mares fantastic results.

As an aside - it's true a dwarf is or isn't a dwarf, but I do believe minimal expression is correct. You can see it in some horses, just off.

As for the person that said Mini's are mutants or man-made. ALL Horse and Dog breeds and most other domesticate animals are then. That's b.s. to say just Minis.

Again good for you on educating yourself. I'm glad everyone is being kind and helpful on this thread.


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## Manyspots (Apr 5, 2011)

Tremor, after seeing your pics it is good that you did quit using your Buddy for breeding. It is too bad you got off to such a bad start I hope that it won't discourage you in the future. I read your 4-H presentation too and that is good. Looks like you are enjoying and love your little horses and they give a lot of love in return . Keep learning all you can.

Michelle at Wesco, I am the one that said the vets at ISU refered to them as mutants. they were explaining the off bites and crowded mouths that is often found in the minis. We as breeders shouldn't be surprised when we find a mouth crowded with teeth. There was no mention of dogs, but I don't doubt there are breeds that people can take the resposiblity of causing problems.

I think the research that is being done on dwarves is a great project and it will help breeders in the future.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 5, 2011)

I think you deserve a standing ovation, I don't know about a pat on the back!

Talk about thrown in at the deep end, I know you are not that old now, so how you must have felt when the mare foaled unexpectedly four years ago, I just can't think.

Parents, eh, gotta love them (you only get one set, so it just as well )

If you look at the pictures of your (known) dwarf, you will see he does not look very dwarfy as a new born, and no more did Connor.

If you look as a yearling, well, in hindsight you can see but, honestly, he could just have a worm gut/ hay belly, or just be particularly small.

Now, of course, you can see clearly that he is a dwarf.

But he is undoubtedly the sort of little pony that people were selling "Miniature Horses" even a few years back- his type is the sort that allowed Bond Tiny Tim to go unnoticed (except by a few discerning people of course)

I still think Connor is a dwarf- if we are discarding the term "minimal" (and I do not actually see a reason to at the moment as I do think we all know exactly what we are alluding to) then she is an atypical, not fully expressed at present, dwarf.

I think she will become more obvious as she gets older, and I think she would be a great one to put forward to John (honestly, email him. He is busy but committed and interested, he may take a while but he will get back to you) as a test case for testing.

I am sure he is already lining up a few.

So go and get on Lil Bits if you are not already, and email John Eberth.

Very nice man, very approachable.

I think that the problem people are having with the word "minimal" is that they are taking it to mean "partial" which of course is not possible, whereas a lot of us interested in colour genetics are taking it to mean " minimally expressed" as with my Tobiano filly, who would test genetically as a Tobiano, even though she only has three white socks.

A "minimal" dwarf, to me, is one that would/will test as a dwarf, but shows only some characteristics.

I also think it not beyond the bounds of possibility that one or two "characteristics" such as wry mouth or very short neck, might actually be found, once we can test these things, to indicate dwarfism, just in the way that we now have a far greater understanding of Pinto characteristics, and know that there is no such thing as "normal" white markings.


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## midnight star stables (Apr 5, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I think you deserve a standing ovation, I don't know about a pat on the back!
> 
> Talk about thrown in at the deep end, I know you are not that old now, so how you must have felt when the mare foaled unexpectedly four years ago, I just can't think.
> 
> ...



I really have to agree with Rabbitfizz and Molly Run



Perfectly said.


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