# is anyone interested in driving from a PNH or Nate Bowers point of view?



## studiowvw (Aug 31, 2012)

Or even Carolyn Resnick.

Traditional horsemanship never worked for me - I took lessons from traditional English/western, reining, dressage, driving coaches - this doesn't work for me. Talented people think you'll "get it" just by going around in circles long enough, un-talented people teach "by the book" because that's what they were taught, and many of the things people tell you to do are so unacceptable from any natural standpoint. Some people are lucky enough to find a wonderful instructor who can pass on skills that work without ruining the horse or the relationship. Not me!

The only way I began to have a better time riding and training horses, big and small, was from the "natural" clinicians' ideas. Chris Irwin was the first exposure I had to these ideas, BLEW MY MIND!!!

Then through Parelli, Monty Roberts, John Lyons, Bill and Tom Dorrance, Ray Hunt, etc., then back to Parelli because I met people who were doing such amazing things by following the program. I've been doing the PNH program for about 10 years now.

A few months ago I had the privilege of watching Nate Bowers as he introduced several horses to concepts useful for driving. It just made so much sense. However, as he's in Colorado, I won't be able to see him too often!

He's putting out a DVD set through PNH, not released yet.

This past spring, I signed up for a series of in-hand dressage clinics with my mini, from an experienced trainer, coach and competitor. I went to about 5 of these. My mini has many miles of line driving and also I began to understand some of the bends in dressage.

However, this is what happened: I watched Nate Bowers for several days (between the 4th and 5th in-hand clinic), and practiced some of the concepts with my mini Lacey. Then I went back to the last in-hand clinic.

The instructor seemed very pleased with our progress and said I must have been practicing as we were doing so much better!

My private thought was: "Yeah, but I didn't learn it here!" I learned it from Nate!

Anyways, it would be cool to have a thread going with this point of view.

thanks for reading


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## Matthijs (Aug 31, 2012)

We did a clinic last February with Jonathan Field, mini's only, it was his second time doing this. I think every driving horse should go through this process, the horse needs to relie so much more on you as the only guidance you are able to give is via rein and whip ie no direct contact as when riding.

Personally I got much out of this clinic and think everybody would benefit from this kind of work. If Jonathan does another one next year I would try to get in again or at least audit.

Matthijs.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 1, 2012)

I'll be honest- I've never been a fan of "natural" horsemanship. I don't like formulaic training that treats each horse the same, I don't like mindlessly repetitious training, and I avoid any sort of training that requires special trademarked props that must be purchased from The Guru. It seems to me that NH in the hands of novices often becomes more about getting the horse to execute certain preset tasks than forming a genuine relationship with the animal in front of them.

I know not all the NH systems are like that but I'm afraid I got turned off of it early on when that was what I was seeing.

I do like John Lyons as to me he's simply a good horseman, down to earth and practical and showing respect for the fact a horse is a horse without advocating all sorts of Special Patented Moves To Gain The Horse's Respect. Mark Rashid is also someone I admire, especially because so much of what he puts out there in print is about the mistakes he's made and the journey he's taken.

Maybe I'm missing something. Tell me what you like about NH! I'm always interested in learning new things and I'm firmly convinced you can find useful ideas in any system of training whether you agree with the whole or not.

Leia


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## PaintMeFancy (Sep 2, 2012)

Hobbyhorse - I have a very similar view as you. I do not think one should have to buy expensive equipment from the trainer and theirs only because its the best to have a relationship with their horse and obtain training level desired to accomplish tasks. I think many novices have good horses that learn the "tricks" and not really accomplishing what they have been "sold" that it does.

However - I like many concepts these guys have to offer. I like round pens if used properly, at liberty, etc - I like the "carrot stick" for horses with space issues or fearful/dangerous ones but my $5 one I found works just fine - its a safety thing - not a gimmick or used all the time. I have been able to ride two of horses bridleless without any crazy training. I spend time with my horse, I set boundaries, and I ensure I am the leader. Horses don't understand friendships in my opinion, they understand herds, pecking orders, and that means no two equals are the same.

I have always watched, done clinics (not all the time like some), read books, videos, etc - I take the concepts and learn them - however I apply what I think is best for me and that horse. Not ever horse learns the same and some need variations. Also not every person can teach and understand how to do certain things properly thus not every method is meant for every horseman/woman.

These guys make a lot of money off horse crazy people... maybe its more of the marketing I don't like over necessarily the methods.

I did try PNH for a while, savvy club member and all - my friends ALL did it - I shortly left.. just not for me - it did not work for me and my horse - but I have seen how it has improved relationships for some. I think it is because it gives them a confidence level they didn't have before.


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## Minimor (Sep 3, 2012)

Like Leia I have never had much use for NH. It is silly to have to buy the overpriced props, and I see it as outrageous that these teachers charge so much money for teaching things that are so common sense to the rest of the horse training world. They take a common sense concept, give it their own term, teach exaggerated cues and the pupils believe they have learned something that no one teaches.


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## targetsmom (Sep 3, 2012)

I am another one with Leia and Minimor on this. I am sure that NH has helped some people and horses and to them, I say "fine". But some of the people I know that swear by NH (Parelli especially) are also the ones with the worst mannered horses I know, so they are not a good ad for it!! Common sense, consistency, listening to the horse, and adjusting methods to the situation, makes a lot more sense to me. (Without having to buy any expensive props or DVDs).


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## PaintMeFancy (Sep 3, 2012)

EXACTLY!!!!



targetsmom said:


> Common sense, consistency, listening to the horse, and adjusting methods to the situation, makes a lot more sense to me. (Without having to buy any expensive props or DVDs).


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## paintponylvr (Sep 3, 2012)

A LONG dissertation on NH & a short answer to OPs ?

And I also have a slightly different "take" on the NH techniques. I agree with several statements that have been made - on both sides of the issue.

When I was growing up and learning to ride - there were just as many expensive gimmicks as there are now. In fact, in the hunt seat and dressage worlds in the 60s, 70s and 80s - most of those were imported from England and Germany (probably others as well - those are what I remember) and they were EXPECTED to be in your tack box or hanging in your section of the tack room/barn when you were with certain trainers. Also, products were used and you were to be using them or you weren't "allowed" to be part of that barn! Saddle types/brands as well as very specific bridles &/or bits. I learned to "mimic" some of those items - by making my own. When we could, we invested in the "proper" tack. I often didn't belong to barns simply because we couldn't afford the "suggested" riding gear. BUT I watched the lessons, I worked for and watched trainers training and I READ everything I could get my hands on AND then I had the ability to go and try out what I read. About the only thing I had no exposure to was saddle seat riding or any of the gaited horses. It was amazing to me that MANY of the "old time" (understand I was a YOUTH, then) COWBOYS (the good ones w/ horses) had a varied and large experience with horses - not only with rough stock and western horses but also w/i the jumping and dressage worlds. I wish to high heck I could have taken what I learned and PACKAGED IT. Shoot, I'd love it if I could just go back to teaching beginning riders/beginning horseman, but that is not do-able in this area... Not enough clientele and the insurance to protect oneself, their home, their family and their livelihood is outrageous!

What I've learned the best - A HORSEMAN is a HORSEMAN no matter what field he/she specializes in. A GOOD TRAINER can make a bad horse look fantastic doing mediocre things (and can get a "stubborn" horse to do a job and LIKE IT due to his/her ability to create understanding in that horse) - while a GOOD INSTRUCTOR can impart USEABLE knowledge that the general public can safely apply. It is extremely difficult to find all of these attributes rolled into one person.

In some ways, it's terrible that the NH has developed such a large following - because as some pointed out - some of it doesn't work for every person or for every horse (isn't that normal for all training techniques?). Some of the NH has been pointed to as having "rigid" exercises - yet if you dig deep enough each of the "guru"s has at some point stated that not every technique will work on each horse and that you have to OR CAN adjust the techniques to each horse. The problem is that the "newbie" DOESN'T KNOW what might be needed and what will work NOR do they have the mental/physical capability of APPLYING an adjusted technique... I KNOW - I'm one of those. I love some of what I see with clicker trained horses (I feel that that falls w/i the NH genre) - but I sure haven't developed the timing (yep, said TIMING) or the ability to reward the smallest try that way. I grew up using rope halters and nylon halters w/ stud chains. I can do things w/ both that a lot of others can't. I also love what can be done with the techniques that Linda Tellington Jones developed (did she, really?? or did she just put names to what TB and other "in the barn" folk have used for centuries???? )

AS to having only that "guru"s equipment - again - I've made a lot of equipment and have found stuff that works that is less expensive. BUT guess what - just like with a quality harness that is recommended to ALL NEWBIES on this forum (think most recent is "buy top notch, cry once when get the bill") - there is a REASON that those "guru"s use "their" brand of equipment. They have learned that it gets a specific response in a specific amount of time - it works with their techniques and has been developed to allow others to get similar responses. AND personally, it costs no more than any GOOD QUALITY equipment that fits properly.

Back to the OP -

Steve Bowers is related to Nate. His book - Farming with Horses covers quite a bit of NH techniques. Their website also has some of the other DVDs that they offer - some are pretty intense and full of info with little anecdotes that are definitely driving but also NH related.

The Draft Horse driving industry has been "struck" by the NH stuff, too. A good one, that is more common sense when you think about it, is Doc Hammil. Go out to Rural Heritage's website and look thru the books & DVDs they offer. A lot of books are ones provided thru Mishka Press. I got a package purchase that included Carriage Driving (the driving Bible according to those here - I've loaned it to a friend while I was reading others...Other than a brief look, I haven't had the chance to read it yet).

When I get new Rural Heritage's there are new folk also using NH techniques and many can be applied to working with or driving miniature horses. Several are now advertising books & DVDs - the actual driving equipment is standard (either pleasure driving or work/draft style). No new gimmicks there, LOL. Many of course, use the rope halters - but then again - many draft horse folk have used one type or another of rope halters since Draft breeds came into existence.

Personally, the biggest problem I see now-a-days w/ horses and trainers/instructors is that many people coming into horses (either full sized or mini) have not been around horses before and often have not seen them in any kind of a herd environment. They want "their baby" to be loved on and they are treated more like big dogs than like the "large" animals they truly are. A lot of the people I've come into contact with also have no concept of "common sense" - commonly known by horsemen the world over as "horse sense" and they don't want to learn it (awww, that's so cruel... has been a typical response from folks Ive talked to). If an NH "guru" can break thru that "block", and get some of these newbies to understand their new acquisitions in a different and safe way - well I'm all for it!!!

Last thing - I've reread and tried to rephrase some of what I've written. It still sounds like I'm "up in arms" and angry... I'm not, so I hope no-one takes it that way. This whole subject gets very passionate, though and it's one that I have some strong feelings about too, LOL.


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## studiowvw (Sep 3, 2012)

Good points, Paintponylovr!

There is good and bad to every system, I'm sure.

NH is only as good as the person applying it, and many people take a long time to learn and use "feel".

Like I said in my original post, traditional horse world did not work for me. What works for me is breaking things down into tiny segments, which Parelli does really well. So does Carolyn Resnick, and Nate Bowers. Following these can create a great foundation, and a great relationship, and when you put it all together and start refining, it can be pretty amazing.

People still need time to learn horse language, and to be able to read their horse, and learn techniques that their horse can understand.

The newbies can look really bad, and people who are results-oriented can create horrible impressions.

Every person also interprets things in their own way.

I see there are several comments about "expensive" equipment, but what I found was that the original few pieces of PNH equipment I bought 10 years ago are still useful and in good condition. You can go to any tack shop and spend way more on equipment, glitz and gimmicks, and get to go back in a few weeks for MORE!!! or different gimmicks, equipment and tack. The endless quest for the perfect gimmick!

I hardly ever have to buy anything.

Same with the DVDs - I've paid $20, $45, $60 and $80 for a private or group lesson from traditional coaches and been P.O'd big time. Quality varied from horrendous to mediocre to pretty good (rare).

When I buy a DVD or set, I have experienced "meh" (a time or two) to "great and useful" (quite often) and they are in my library to re-watch any time I want. With lessons you are spending that $20 - $80 every week. Tell me that doesn't add up!




And you can't replay them unless someone has video'd for you.

What set me off last week (so I put the post up) was the clinic I went to. The guy is a judge and a driver of drafts and minis. Obviously he is in the "talented" slot, has a great firm manner and gets good results from his horses. He said his father was a judge too, so he grew up in the tradition.

He gave some good info on halter showing, also demo'd harnessing. Some good info.

However, there was a lady there who said her mini had run away with her twice. He said he could sell her a twisted wire snaffle and that would fix her problem.

I said, shouldn't she do some groundwork to get the horse listening to commands better.

He said the mini knew the commands, but was ignoring them.

Now for him, I'm sure the twisted wire snaffle was a suitable solution and pretty soon he would have that mini going fine, if it was him driving. Or if it was an equipment problem, he would figure it out pretty fast and fix it.

The lady, however, did not appear to be either firm or consistent, and had not much driving skill or experience, and didn't know much about harness. (Even less than me, haha)

I find it quite disgusting that this was the advice he gave to her, when a better solution would be to develop a better relationship with the mini, develop some obedience and consistency, develop some driving skill and find someone to give her lessons, if not someone to retrain the mini.

Also the shafts were clamped right onto the horse's sides - way too narrow for her.

I find this type of attitude quite, quite disgusting, when much better advice could have been given to her.

I cannot believe that there are still people in the world who think this kind of teaching is useful.

If she had a better understanding of horses (a la NH, for example, where you soon learn that a horse of any size is not a dog, or a person in a furry suit, but a HORSE, a PREY ANIMAL, and a HERD ANIMAL to whom leadership and herd dynamics are very important) she would have some hope of being able to read her horse and develop a better relationship.

Ah well!... The info is out there, she just has to find it.

Then I also see several comments about only one technique being applied to all horses - Actually in Parelli there is an endless variety of techniques - you just have to learn what works in the moment for the horse you are with. Yes, it takes some time - any discipline takes time.

Their most brilliant development is probably what they've called horsenality.

However, it's true that PNH can look like a big bad



marketing machine. A great program though. I got into it from seeing the great results my friends were getting. The most awesome is my friend who is now 67. He started riding at 54, with typical "normal" results like falling off. When he was 57 he and his wife got into Parelli, and now at 67 he is cantering his horse with a bareback pad (no stirrups). And he did all this with a hip replacement and a bad knee that also needs replacing. We trail ride in rope halters and have wonderful, safe rides. I'm just starting a new 3 year old paint gelding - today was the first time in the saddle. I'm doing a 7-day program with the saddle with him. The first day he bucked, the second and third days he was accepting of me stepping up in the stirrup both sides, and today I thought he would accept me getting into the saddle, which he did with a good attitude. (Don't forget I'm 54 and kinda tubby and not that athletic!) If you care to see this, which my sister video'd, it is at www. youtube.com/watch?v=Bsbjo1B-KSU

(Yikes! when I put in this link the whole video came up - just put the link address together and you can paste it.)

I guess the point of this is --- without Parelli and the other NH I've learned, I would have given up riding years ago - yet here I am at age 54 starting another horse. Taking the time it takes so it takes less time



and remembering that Prior and proper preparation prevents P-poor performance. If I had read any resistance in him, I wouldn't have gotten on today. Also due to his horse-onality, I can predict what he is likely to do, and have found him an easy horse to read.

If you watched the video and don't understand what we are doing, please ask.

I also find my mini an easy horse to read, I love her personality AND horse-onality





However we are now back to my original post, which is about discussing driving (so I can get better) from the NH point of view.

I cannot face having to learn from people like the clinic guy





Lastly, I can report that we went to a fair show on Saturday, where we had a good turnout of 14 minis. My mare got 1st in halter, mares 3 and over, and in our FIRST driving class ever, we got 3rd in a class of 6 or 7!

Also the other people gave me some advice on my driving and harness, so that was helpful.

Anyways, thanks for the posts. I would love to have a thread in Parelli-speak - no offence to anyone else





If not, I will try to fit in. There is lots of good advice here and I've learned a lot.

thanks

PS Matthijs, I have heard that Jonathan Field is an excellent teacher (formerly Parelli) but haven't seen him in person.


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## Blackwater Farm (Sep 7, 2012)

No offense to anyone or anything but I don't care for Parelli much. One clinician I have always liked and respected is Clinton Anderson. I have used his method with several horses, regular and mini alike, and have always had great results. I will admit that he likes to push his products, but the products I can re-create. The method is what I love. Horses are very powerful animals and they will hurt you and they will not feel bad about it. Gaining respect is important, without that you can't begin to build a proper relationship. Plus he is just hilarious!


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## Miss Gracie (Sep 8, 2012)

I think it's AWESOME that Parelli has finally come out with a driving DVD.  I've been in horses for over 30+ years and Parelli is the best thing that has happened for my horses and I. I love playing with my horse at liberty, nothing feels better than your horse wanting to be with you, not forced by a rope. For those that aren't into Parelli or another natural horsemanship program, take the rope off and ask your horse to side-pass over a log or try lunging without a rope in a large arena or pasture. If the love language and leadership is there he'll stay with you, if he doesn't well the relationship needs work. No it's not all about the liberty, but what an AWESOME feeling!


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## studiowvw (Sep 8, 2012)

So true - Parelli is the best thing that ever happened to me & my horses. There is so much in the program, it's like a roadmap for the rest of my horse life





The liberty is the most fascinating. When I got that difficult paint stallion last fall, he pretty soon learned to be good on line, but was a PITA around the barnyard and pasture. I decided not to put him on line until he was pretty good at liberty. (Carolyn Resnick ideas).

The results are a very cooperative horse on line. Also, since my horses live at liberty in a couple of hundred acres, I have to keep them liking me. I can certainly see that I've been making mistakes if they run away when they see me





The other day when I went to put the halter on my mini Lacey, she took one look at the halter and ran the other way - yikes! Obviously some relationship-mending to do! Yesterday she was a lot better.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 9, 2012)

I've been avoiding this thread like the plague, but I just can't hold my tongue anymore lol I can't stand Parelli as a person. Great businessman though (or should I say scammer? I really don't like him or Linda) HORRIBLE horseman. When he got dumped last (??) year at RTTH I almost died laughing. Serves him right! I've seen too many videos of them continuing to "ask" a very confused and frightened horse, simply because they refuse to humble themselves and say "This isn't working, what other ways can I ask?"

As for the rest of NH, most of my training I guess would fall under that category, although I refer to it more as common-sense horsemanship (I'm not afraid to use more "cowboy" type methods if the situation calls for it). I do like Clinton Anderson (I won't lie, his accent is WONDERFUL lol) I pretty much watch and read everything horse related, and come up with several different ways to get something done, learning a bit from everyone. Different horses learn using different methods, just like people, and I like knowing alternate ways to ask them for something to avoid frustration with both parties.

Craig Cameron is pretty great to see live. I also like Lyons, he is a great horseman.

I just hate that all these "clinicians" market these ideas as new, when really its just that marketing these methods to the general public is easier than its ever been. I refuse to believe that everyone can train their own horse using only dvd's and books. Horse training is based way to much on timing, and if you can't time things right the horse will just get frustrated, which can cause things to end badly.


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## Margo_C-T (Sep 9, 2012)

I feel pretty much as Minimor does.

I went to the 'introduction' day(the only 'free' part!) of a Parelli clinic down in Albuquerque back when he was just getting 'hot'...it was in about '87 or so. I was 'underwhelmed': have seen him then and since as someone who just figured out how to 'package' information that genuine, longtime horsemen knew, and put it up for sale...and adds continually to that package in order to keep'em coming, and buying.

I'm not surprised at the appeal for many; but my personal take is that ONLY time and ongoing EXPERIENCE can impart the 'feel' for horses that is such a requisite to be a genuine horseman/horsewoman.

Everyone of my horses responds to its name, and will (almost always!)come over to me if I say 'come here' and extend my hand. Why? Because they trust me, and, I have offered rewards! If they are turned out for a rare chance to graze(drought + normally-sparse native grass cover = very little grazing),and they haven't been out there for long-- well, then, no, they probably WON'T come to me right then---they choose the treat of the grass over my company...and I don't blame them a bit!!

Tried and true, effective while humane, training methods will hopefully ALWAYS prevail with genuinely knowledgeable horsepeople...and most don't require ANY 'special equipment', at least not beyond what we can fashion.

Margo


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## Miss Gracie (Sep 9, 2012)

I certainly hope that someone that is thinking about trying the Parelli program doesn't read the negative comments people have written and change their minds. It's not fair for someone to judge the Parelli program if they have not gone through it themselves. I use to be one of those people that thought Pat Parelli was arrogant and I actually thought what he did was stupid. Years ago when I saw the Parelli's at the Equine Affaire I laughed with my friends and made jokes about them. I was so wrong and ignorant about the Parelli's and their program back then. My life with horses has truly changed because of Pat and Linda's program. The cost of Parelli equipment is not unreasonable, it is equipment that will last for a very long time if taken care of properly. I buy their DVD's when they're on sell. I bought the Success Series and got the Liberty Horse Behavior Course for free. The Liberty Horse Behavior Course was selling for $599.00 (members cost) $999.00 (non-members cost), where can you get a deal this good? A friend of mine bought the Liberty Horse Behavior Course 5 months before this offer came out, guess what... Parelli was kind enough to send her the Success Series for free. How many businesses do you know that would do this? Those that say Parelli claims to have come up with the techniques that he uses are only saying this because they heard someone else say it, Parelli has never claimed to have come up with the techniques. Pat has always given credit to those that have helped teach him. I think a lot of people want a quick fix and aren't willing to put the time it takes into the relationship with their horse. My Paso Fino use to hate me going into his stall, he would bare his teeth at me every time until this past winter when I decided it's time to take the time it takes to fix it. I'm ashamed to admit it but I knew how to fix the behavioral problem, it was in one of the DVD's, but just didn't want to take the time. I have owned my Paso for 16 years and knew he wouldn't bit me...SHAME on me for not fixing it sooner, my horse isn't bothered by me entering his stall anymore. My mini is a long success story, Parelli saved her from being sold and possibly abused in someone else's hands.

Carol


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## Miss Gracie (Sep 9, 2012)

@ Studiowvw...I'm happy that you found Parelli to be helpful as well. I'm glad you posted this topic, too bad some people had to leave their negative comments. Seems like anytime PNH is mentioned on any site there is always a debate.


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## PaintMeFancy (Sep 9, 2012)

Isn't that the same with any trainer?

I hope no one found my comments negative... just giving an opinion.. just like you hope that someone's comments may not turn them off of PNH ... I hope that someone's praise doesn't have them waste their money to find out it wasn't for them...

I think it works great for some, it doesn't for all -

I have actually tried his methods, been to his clinics, while I have taken many things from him, his full method is not for me. What erks me is when people have an opinion who have not actually tried it and just "going with the flow" - peer pressure opinions..


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## lucky seven (Sep 9, 2012)

This has been a great topic. Last year I asked who was better, C. Anderson or Parrelli and got some great answers. One question that I do have is, what size round pen do you use for a mini? I want to make one but horse size is way too big and I don't want to make it too small.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 9, 2012)

I've gone through the lower levels of his program with my full sized paint mare. I got it for free on craigslist and I'm glad I had nothing invested. All it managed to do was confuse my mare, and that's how the majority of horses I've seen react to it. Granted, this may be because people think that one trainer is god (this seems to be the norm with NH) and refuse to believe that they can do wrong.

I will give him an once of credit, in that if his program actually worked I never would have been as interested in training horses as I am now.


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## Knottymare (Sep 10, 2012)

I have had great results with methods I have learned both from Parelli and other NH trainers. I am not thrilled with the hard sell nor the price of the equipment and get really offended when a person gets bent if my stick is yellow and not orange or my line is 15' and not 12'... some people are so locked into the words instead of understanding what is really behind the methods. One thing to keep in mind when evaluating the Parelli method is that they are trying to communicate horsemanship to people who have ZERO information about horses and no common horse sense. So they break it down to the lowest level.

If you've ever listened to Pat Parelli (especially in the pre-Linda days) he was the first one to say he was only passing along info he got from the cowboys before him... and that if his body and arm weren't communicating the direction he was telling his horse to move, a branch (and a pointer, not a whip) worked as good as any fancy carrot stick. Somewhere along the line, I think a combination of the need to actually support yourself and make a living got lost in the fame he was accumulating. I've met him and have friends who know him well. He really is a very interesting and intelligent man. I think it's just gone too far. Parelli has, IMHO, jumped the shark. But, that said, I have learned a great deal from the program as I have from other great Natural Horsemen and Women.

Now, those people who religiously follow this method or any other drive me a little bit to distraction...

By the way, if you've never read about Horsenalities, that is one part of the program I felt was really interesting. I enjoyed being able to break down different behaviors and match them to the appropriate response... knowing when to bring my energy up to effect a change in my horse and when instead of reacting, act in a way that brings my energy down, causing a different affect.

I'm editing to add that I think any of us is wise to learn to slow down, learn to read our horse, remember that we are predators, they are prey animals and that it is much easier for us to learn to act like a horse than for a horse to learn to act like a human. Whatever method you use, if your horse is happy and learning, you are enjoying yourself and your horse and no one is being harmed, good for you!


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## Knottymare (Sep 10, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> I've gone through the lower levels of his program with my full sized paint mare. I got it for free on craigslist and I'm glad I had nothing invested. All it managed to do was confuse my mare, and that's how the majority of horses I've seen react to it. Granted, this may be because people think that one trainer is god (this seems to be the norm with NH) and refuse to believe that they can do wrong.
> 
> I will give him an once of credit, in that if his program actually worked I never would have been as interested in training horses as I am now.


Michelle, you have a great deal of natural instinct and a very calm personality. You and Spanky are a great team. I really enjoyed watching you together. I hope we'll get together again soon!


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 10, 2012)

Knottymare said:


> Michelle, you have a great deal of natural instinct and a very calm personality. You and Spanky are a great team. I really enjoyed watching you together. I hope we'll get together again soon!


Thanks




I can't take to much credit, I think he'd be good with anyone. I hope we can too, with me moving him to this new place it should make his training go much smoother. Hoping to have him going well by mid January


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## Knottymare (Sep 10, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> Thanks
> 
> 
> 
> I can't take to much credit, I think he'd be good with anyone. I hope we can too, with me moving him to this new place it should make his training go much smoother. Hoping to have him going well by mid January


That should be no problem. Are you planning on gelding him soon?


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 10, 2012)

Knottymare said:


> That should be no problem. Are you planning on gelding him soon?


Yea, I think so. I'm not in such a huge rush anymore as I've found a place that will board him as a stallion (which was the pretty much only reasoning for getting him gelded). I'm on the fence about it, simply because he is such a good boy now that I don't really see him being a stud an issue. I do plan on getting a gelding once Spankys going well under cart as a buddy so he isn't by himself anymore, whether he is still a stud or not.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 11, 2012)

studiowvw said:


> What set me off last week (so I put the post up) was the clinic I went to. The guy is a judge and a driver of drafts and minis. ... However, there was a lady there who said her mini had run away with her twice. He said he could sell her a twisted wire snaffle and that would fix her problem.I said, shouldn't she do some groundwork to get the horse listening to commands better.
> 
> He said the mini knew the commands, but was ignoring them.
> 
> I find it quite disgusting that this was the advice he gave to her, when a better solution would be to develop a better relationship with the mini, develop some obedience and consistency, develop some driving skill and find someone to give her lessons, if not someone to retrain the mini.


I agree with you 100% on all counts and would have written the guy off as "not a horseman" the minute he recommended a twisted wire ANYTHING. I would have had the same recommendations you did- develop obedience and consistency, learn about driving, get some lessons, find the root of the problem and eliminate it rather than trying to stifle the symptoms. It just seems to me that good horsemen from any discipline (not just NH) would have responded that way, and that this guy's poor advice had nothing to do with whether or not he used natural horsemanship. Only my opinion! People do learn different ways and in the end all that matters is that you and your horse are working happily together. I tend to focus on what we all have in common rather than "Oh my God, you got there by a different method than I did!"







Miss Gracie said:


> I love playing with my horse at liberty, nothing feels better than your horse wanting to be with you, not forced by a rope. For those that aren't into Parelli or another natural horsemanship program, take the rope off and ask your horse to side-pass over a log or try lunging without a rope in a large arena or pasture. If the love language and leadership is there he'll stay with you, if he doesn't well the relationship needs work. No it's not all about the liberty, but what an AWESOME feeling!


I agree with you. I clicker train and have done all my work with Turbo at liberty, including harnessing and introducing him to the cart. Both my horses come RUNNING when I show up, and both will leave their dinners just to come stand with me in the corner of the stall in hopes I will work with them. There's no better feeling and it's a great way to challenge yourself as a trainer and make sure you're truly listening to your horse when you have no way to _make_ him stay there with you in the lesson.



PaintMeFancy said:


> I hope no one found my comments negative... just giving an opinion.. just like you hope that someone's comments may not turn them off of PNH ... I hope that someone's praise doesn't have them waste their money to find out it wasn't for them...
> I think it works great for some, it doesn't for all -


Exactly.



Knottymare said:


> I am not thrilled with the hard sell nor the price of the equipment and get really offended when a person gets bent if my stick is yellow and not orange or my line is 15' and not 12'... *some people are so locked into the words instead of understanding what is really behind the methods*.
> Now, those people who religiously follow this method or any other drive me a little bit to distraction...
> 
> I'm editing to add that I think any of us is wise to learn to slow down, learn to read our horse, remember that we are predators, they are prey animals and that it is much easier for us to learn to act like a horse than for a horse to learn to act like a human. *Whatever method you use, if your horse is happy and learning, you are enjoying yourself and your horse and no one is being harmed, good for you!*


Well-said, Knottymare.

Stepping out of the thread again, I just wanted to point out that non-NH fans such as myself also deplore the advice of that original clinician!

Leia


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## lucky seven (Sep 11, 2012)

I would like more information on clicker training, I asked at my local tack shop if they anything and their answer was no. Is it recommended and what results has anyone had that tried it.


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## susanne (Sep 12, 2012)

lucky seven, you might want to send a private message to Amy (Clickmini), as she has done a great deal of clicker training.

I've used it to a limited extent, but it works great for behavior modification.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 12, 2012)

We can start another thread on that if you'd like, I don't want to take away from the topic of this one.





Leia


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## studiowvw (Sep 17, 2012)

Thanks for the interesting reading!

Usually if there's any Parelli-bashing, I have to leave, but my emotional fitness is improving.





I will reiterate that if I had been able to find an instructor who was able to pass on the skills I instinctively know I want (softness, feel, working with the horse instead of against it), I would have been ecstatic.

The closest I found was the PNH program as it breaks down to the basics and then builds on that. I'm always investigating other information, but PNH is just way more comprehensive, from safety for beginners through to awesome harmony at the higher levels.

One thing they repeat is "the horse is your teacher" - watch and learn to read your horse - then you can figure out what to do to direct your horse to do what you want. It takes time, and as I said, if I had been able to find this from anywhere else, I would be there. It doesn't happen overnight - unless you are very talented (I'm not!)

Another strategy they teach for solving problems is "Isolate, separate, and recombine". I did this this past week, to solve our non-walking problem and we won 1st in the cart class yesterday at the fair!!! I will tell the story in the other thread


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## studiowvw (Sep 18, 2012)

Re Clicker training - in my ongoing quest for MORE MORE MORE information, I attended a demo/clinic on clicker training last year.

It was..... interesting!!!

The people demo'ing said they had had very good results with horses that had no use or interest in humans (had had too many bad experiences with humans). The clicker and treats turned them into friendly partners and they were able to develop training with the system.

However, my take on it was: Sure it is another possible technique, obviously useful when a horse hates humans, and judicious use of treats can help with learning new things and keeping them interested.

Sure does develop a greedy mouth though! (Probably only in early stages, as you go to more clicker and less treats, I would hope that would fade out.)

The other thought in my head was that it REALLY underestimates what you can get a horse to do without food reinforcement.

PS Leia - more on the judge/clinician who recommended the wire bit - I class him as one of the instructors who has had a lifetime of learning and experience, and who is talented, but because it's so natural to him, he cannot understand a beginner's limitations.

Although that clinic was a good introduction to showing and harnessing, I'm hoping we can get someone next time who can pass on some actual driving tips more suited to beginners.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 18, 2012)

studiowvw said:


> Re Clicker training - in my ongoing quest for MORE MORE MORE information, I attended a demo/clinic on clicker training last year. It was..... interesting!!!...Sure does develop a greedy mouth though! (Probably only in early stages, as you go to more clicker and less treats, I would hope that would fade out.)


You actually never stop giving treats when you click- that's the "contract" you sign with the horse that makes the click so powerful. They know that when they hear that sound, they will ALWAYS get the secondary reinforcer (the food, a scratch, maybe playing with a favorite toy for a dog that isn't food-motivated). What happens is you build duration on the behaviors so that you click much less often, rather than giving less food when you click. I built lots of behaviors with the clicker that no longer get any reward except praise because the horse now knows what I'm asking for. I primarily build _new_ behaviors with the clicker and use it to get through issues the horse is resistant on. (Kody had a lot of those! LOL)

As for the grabby thing, I was taught that you can shape ANY behavior with the clicker so one of the first things I teach a clicker horse is proper food manners. They are to keep their nose in their own space, they are never, ever allowed to nose the treat bag, they must take the food gently and respectfully...it works very well.

One thing I would be interested in learning from Natural Horsemanship is the principles that motivate the horse to cooperate so readily without the use of rewards. I'm familiar with the traditional release of pressure methods of course and use those daily but never found those got a horse who wasn't interested to want to cooperate with you. They seemed to think "Dude, if I avoid you in the first place there's no pressure either!" My horses learned that I was fair and fun and if they came to me they'd get to go out and have a good time so I never had any trouble building a great relationship, but I wouldn't know how to do that with a strange horse in a day or two. That's something I'd like to learn.

Leia


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## studiowvw (Sep 18, 2012)

(I try to avoid "difficult" horses and prefer horses that are forgiving and like me



)

However, this is the theory that comes to mind IMO:

I think the basic thing is the bond that horses naturally develop with their companions. They want a bond, with friends and with the herd.

A) If a horse is so uninterested that they won't interact, one thing to do is the "walking down" from behind (Zone 5 in PNH, also a native technique, also Carolyn Resnick uses it).

If they look at you, you reward by releasing your "pressure" (take your eyes and energy away from them). This builds toward them actually facing you. If you are so uninteresting that they ignore you, get in range and slap the ground, influence the air/energy, or pop them on the butt (not with a lunge whip - that is too painful). That made you more interesting!

If you are doing this with an aggressive or very dominant horse, don't be in range of retaliation - outside the fence would be safer.

What you have to be able to do is read the horse - them looking at you can be very, very subtle - most people would miss it which would miss the opportunity.

Then your body movements and postures will very subtly influence the horse, you have to know what your body is saying (i.e. shoulder may be blocking a direction). Or are you looking at their head, when possibly looking at their hip or tail might be what you want? (The best way through this is "the horse is your teacher" - when you do something, what does your horse do? - that is your influence.)

I've been working a lot at liberty in the last year, which is quite interesting. My mini would usually rather eat when grass is available (although I've fixed that somewhat) and will scream with rage when I put pressure on (even when only slapping the ground she takes it as a threat). A round pen can be too confining - too much pressure too fast. In a paddock or smaller field, there is room for moving around.

B) If the horse puts his butt to you and will not look at you, one way to gain interest is to put yourself first in one eye - when you get a glance or a look, then put yourself (staying in same area behind the horse) in the other eye. Each time you get the glance, then the turn of the head, you would first turn away (take pressure off). You would go from eye to eye. Sometimes they won't allow you in the other eye, so you have to persist until you can get there. Eventually they will start to turn toward you - you have become interesting to them.

C) An undemanding way of creating the bond of companionship with a horse is just to spend time in his presence without having any agenda. PNH calls it Undemanding time, Carolyn Resnick calls it Sharing Territory. It takes patience to do that, but pays off big time.

IMO the most important thing is learning how to read the horse's smallest indications, and learning what your own indications (small or large, depending on your skill level) create in the horse.

I'm not a teacher and people don't pay much attention to me, but I watch people (even myself) and their aids are far too heavy.

People often say a horse can feel a fly land on them (or just flying above the hair). I say humans can feel a hair fall on their skin - at least I can, so I assume others can. If the horse can feel the lightest touch, and humans can feel it, why not take advantage?

My riding horse that I recently sold sometimes (when I was not sloppy) would follow the direction of my eyes, because that subtly influences my own balance and muscles. My previous horse could be influenced by my thought, because that apparently affected my body balance and muscles, which he felt.

I think in driving, if you have subtle contact on the reins, then the change in direction in your eyes would affect the feel on the reins. That is unless you have developed a horse that only responds to a heavy feel.

Parelli uses the 4 phases of feel - phase one as light as touching the hair.

IMO a true phase one is thought. Ray Hunt said to visualize first what you want.

Well I could blather on, hope it is in line with what you were mentioning. However my sheep and goats are on the lawn so I have to go.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 19, 2012)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> As for the grabby thing, I was taught that you can shape ANY behavior with the clicker so one of the first things I teach a clicker horse is proper food manners. They are to keep their nose in their own space, they are never, ever allowed to nose the treat bag, they must take the food gently and respectfully...it works very well.


Sort of like a horse version of Susan Garrets "Its Yer Choice" game? (

)

I was never very successful with actual clicker training, too much stuff for my brain to think about at once. I do say "yes" when they do what I ask, followed by pets, so same concept I guess


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## susanne (Sep 20, 2012)

I guess I've been in violation of our contract for a long time, because I almost immediately began decreasing the number of actual treats and began interspersing scritches and verbal praise, and it has worked quite well. Now that my horses are very familiar with clicking, during a clipping session I don't give a treat until we are finished, but with many "good boys" and "good girls" along the way. It has worked great for us, and has prevented them from getting into mugging for treats.

...I thought I had gotten this idea from the Alexandra Kurland website...


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