# New horse...need your thoughts



## Renolizzie (Jun 23, 2012)

I am new to driving. I took a number of lessons for mini horse driving and haven't been able to get back with the trainer for awhile. I bought a mini with help from the trainer. He is a nice horse who doesn't kick or bite. Ten year old gelding who was trained by the previous owner to drive. We seem to do fine on the road most of the time but I have had a few times when things were not going smoothly.

I am concerned that whoa is seeming to equal jumping around in the harness instead of stop and don't move. Also, we are having trouble with turns. Not most of the time, just a few times. I am walking him around the neighborhood and basically teaching him to whoa and stay until I say walk. That seems to be working.

I live in the boonies and haven't been able to get someone out here to help me. I think I can work this through if I can get some advice along the way.

I am thinking that making sure he isn't spooky [which he mostly isn't] by working with walking him on the road so he can hear cars and such would be good. And other types of training like that.

I am definitely making a tire drag from a Toyota [small] tire so I can walk behind him with that until we get on the same page with whoa and reining. I don't know that it is all the little guy's fault because I am new. We have had some fabulous days out on the road and I have loved going out. I think that if we stepped back for a bit and tried this it might be good. What do you think?


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 23, 2012)

Okay, I talked to one of the people in my area that does mini horse cart driving and she thinks that I should just keep going with the little guy pulling the cart but when he doesn't want to whoa properly to make him move forwards and not let him "get way with" his bad behavior.

She says that once her horses are pulling a cart she doesn't go backwards in training, basically. And, I will say that most of the time the little horse and I are doing quite well on the roads around here. There isn't much traffic and people can see you from a long ways away.

He maybe is trying to test me a bit to see if he can get away with being a bad little horse He has been trying to eat grass while I am walking him and I have to be firm to say no. Also, when leading him he wants to get ahead of me so I have been turning around so he has to pay attention and stay by me. I think that is working. Also, I am working on whoa while walking him on a lead rope and he seems to be doing better about stopping and not moving since I am making him go back to where he started and trying again.

Anyway, I would be interested to hear your thoughts.

I think I am just having a totally insecure moment.


----------



## happy appy (Jun 23, 2012)

I believe in going back in training if there is something that the horse isn't getting. Whoa would be a reason for me. I want a horse to stand when asked.


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 23, 2012)

happy appy said:


> I believe in going back in training if there is something that the horse isn't getting. Whoa would be a reason for me. I want a horse to stand when asked.


That is sort of what I am thinking. I really would like whoa to mean whoa and not maybe I'll jiggle around and step backwards and be fussy. I don't mind taking the time to learn and teach the little guy. I love working with him even if we aren't driving that day. I don't think it is a set back to go back a step or two. I wasn't there when the horse was trained so I don't know what the previous owner thought was acceptable on a whoa and I think I need to work with the little guy so we are on the same page maybe.


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jun 24, 2012)

My SIL has been having a similar problem with her young gelding. He is green but has been in harness long enough to know 'whoa' and was ground driven for long enough to really get a good understanding of rein cues etc. My advice to you is the same as my advice to her, if you want the horse to stop and stand and they have a habit of fidgiting and trying to walk off, back up, leap forward ...whatever, then keep them going forward until they are tired and want to stop. Don't (initially) ask for a whoa when they are fresh and wanting to move out. Keep them working until they seem to be a bit tired then ask for a whoa. At first just a 10 second whoa is OK, try to ask them to move off again before they break from the stand and gradually increase the time you ask them to stand still. I find it is harder (mostly) to get a horse to move out well and with energy than it is to get them to stand and relax so in the beginning I encourage forward movement as much as possible, I do want it to be my idea tho so try to make it seem that way to the horse. My opinion on backing up a step is, it can never hurt to refresh an old lesson so if he is really antsy about whoa and it is making you uncomfortable then go back to ground work for a couple of day to reinforce the lesson he should be solid on already. You can never tell what part of his training was glossed over because he seemed to get it at the time.When I get a new horse I always treat them as untrained at first. In hand work followed by ground driving and eventually hitching just like I would any horse who wasn't trained yet. If they know their stuff well we'll move along quickly and if not i won't get any unpleasant surprises. Either way I reinforce my authority and leadership and we have a better partnership.


----------



## Sue_C. (Jun 24, 2012)

I guess I am always going "backwards". LOL! I don't consider ground work to be ONLY for green horses. I regularly use it to REFRESH their minds...and in your horse's case, it is very likely something that wasn't done properly to begin with...or he would BE standing still. So many people get too bored with ground work, and throw a horse into the shafts because of it; and this is a disservice to the horse, as it completely passes by a very important part of their basic training.

Myself...I love ground driving, and I take them everywhere, expose them to as much as possible, and stand still with them...a LOT! Personally...I will not even put a horse to cart unless they WILL stand like a statue FIRST.


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 24, 2012)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> My advice to you is the same as my advice to her, if you want the horse to stop and stand and they have a habit of fidgiting and trying to walk off, back up, leap forward ...whatever, then keep them going forward until they are tired and want to stop. Don't (initially) ask for a whoa when they are fresh and wanting to move out. Keep them working until they seem to be a bit tired then ask for a whoa. At first just a 10 second whoa is OK, try to ask them to move off again before they break from the stand and gradually increase the time you ask them to stand still. I find it is harder (mostly) to get a horse to move out well and with energy than it is to get them to stand and relax so in the beginning I encourage forward movement as much as possible, I do want it to be my idea tho so try to make it seem that way to the horse. My opinion on backing up a step is, it can never hurt to refresh an old lesson so if he is really antsy about whoa and it is making you uncomfortable then go back to ground work for a couple of day to reinforce the lesson he should be solid on already. You can never tell what part of his training was glossed over because he seemed to get it at the time.When I get a new horse I always treat them as untrained at first. In hand work followed by ground driving and eventually hitching just like I would any horse who wasn't trained yet. If they know their stuff well we'll move along quickly and if not i won't get any unpleasant surprises. Either way I reinforce my authority and leadership and we have a better partnership.


Thanks for the thoughts. I will try this when we go out again. He generally gets a little anxious to be trotting right away when we go out. I try to get him to walk for a few minutes to get him warmed up. Maybe I need to learn how to lunge him to warm him up and then just let him trot as soon as possible when we get out on the road?


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 24, 2012)

Sue_C. said:


> I guess I am always going "backwards". LOL! I don't consider ground work to be ONLY for green horses. I regularly use it to REFRESH their minds...and in your horse's case, it is very likely something that wasn't done properly to begin with...or he would BE standing still. So many people get too bored with ground work, and throw a horse into the shafts because of it; and this is a disservice to the horse, as it completely passes by a very important part of their basic training.
> 
> Myself...I love ground driving, and I take them everywhere, expose them to as much as possible, and stand still with them...a LOT! Personally...I will not even put a horse to cart unless they WILL stand like a statue FIRST.


I like the little guy and spending time with him. When I first got him we did walking around the neighborhood, then long line but he wanted to get out and get moving so I hooked him up to the cart with Hubby as a header a couple of times, then I hooked him up and we went out on our own. He is actually doing good. He likes trotting. I want to see if I can get him to be more comfortable with cars passing him [motorcycles and trucks with rattling trailers kind of make him shy sometimes] and I would like him to whoa and not fuss.


----------



## Performancemini (Jun 24, 2012)

Reignmaker's advice is solid (and I am going to use it myself on a horse with the same problem-especially since he doesn't like to stand once they start announcing awards in the show arena!). We have a friend that drives Draft horses. He says that the most important training of all is "whoa" and standing-standing-standing, also just walking, walking, walking. I respect that from him as he is handling a team of horses of what - one ton or so of horseflesh?!!!




Another trainer of Morgan horses uses ground training all the time for all ages and levels of her horses. She says all of them need a refresher of the basics occasionally. So, backing up is OK!


----------



## shorthorsemom (Jun 24, 2012)

Backing up and retraining for a more solid response is great. Whoa is the most important "gait". If you are green you may be signalling something that is confusing him without knowing it. My trainer gets on me about maintaining contact on my outside rein in a turn. When I forget, my guy gets buggy on his turns. In other words, I am causing the confusion in my hands and he is responding. Also, on halts, when I was very green and would forget to "give" when my boy did his halt, my boys response was to jig around and not stand quietly... again, training of me. I still work with a trainer, there is so much to learn.

On the topic of work them until they are tired... there is one drawback I remember my trainer telling me... she said that you can work a horse until tired, but if you have a horse that is unstable in certain areas, what you get is a horse that is fit and strong and able to fight you longer.. she told me to separate each training issue into a compartment and work on that... My proper trained hands, equaled good stands... etc. Hope this helps. I knew it was me because when my trainer drove my boy, he was awesome, and when I drove he was trying to get away with things and even looked like he needed training when in fact he was a very sensitive boy that was excellent at picking up my mis-cues and poor signals. We get training whenever I can get her out, can't beat having somebody experienced work with you. best wishes. PS, I do a lot of time on my feet when I my trainer is too busy to come, helps build a great relationship with my boy.


----------



## Sandee (Jun 24, 2012)

Yes, tiring him out is not THE answer but it is a quick fix for the problem. If a horse has been stalled for a long period, say a show etc., then working him before hitching is good as it stretches him and lets him get the tense/tightness out of himself and allows his mind to start working. If you have to do it everytime before you hitch, then it's a training problem and it's never backward to correct a hole in the original training.

Also you don't say how long you've had him. If he's new to you or the property, he needs an adjustment period to accept his new surroundings and maybe a bit jumpy for a while.


----------



## circlesinthesand (Jun 24, 2012)

ok I've never really had this problem with a cart horse because most of mine learned to ride first and since I ride reining horses, whoa is one of our most important maneuvers to learn. You simply can't slide without a GREAT whoa. We really start with this from day one with weanlings and yearlings. We do it on the lead then under saddle so that whoa is always respected. I only use whoa when I know I can get a stop. Otherwise I use 'easy' to just slow a horse down.

I'm having to do it a tiny bit differently with the mini's but it's still the same principle for me, I'm just doing it all in a ground driving situation with some modifications.

But here are some things I'd do if whoa was a big issue. Some might disagree and I'm not saying you have to do it this way. But it would be what I'd do.

Whoa is taught as a back. I want my horses immediately thinking back when I say whoa. Not only does it help them learn whoa, it teaches them to gather their body in the stop. With my reiners, we do it with three different cues and we test them independently. I want a horse stopping off the rein, off the voice and off my seat, independently and together or in combination, sometimes just voice and seat, sometime just reins and voice etc. But I proof that whoa to where it's there for all of them and in all 3 gaits. Obviously you'll eliminate the seat, but I still want the other two to be responded to. The horse needs to come back to just your hand and he needs to stop with just your voice, independently and together.

So when I do ask for the whoa I always back a step or two sometimes more depending on how quickly the horse responds. General rule of thumb is for every step they take over my stopping point, they have to back to that stopping point. The quicker they learn to back with a whoa the quicker they'll learn to down shift those gears and eventually they start to relax into the stop and you won't need to back. Most horses don't really WANT to back at first and a tense horse will have a hard time doing so. Once you get them thinking back anytime you ask for a stop, whoa is hardly ever a problem again because it gets them to think first and in turn to relax. The body position for stopping is the same as for backing, so they need to learn to get into that position. The transition into just stopping without any steps back isn't that hard to achieve and one tiny step back never hurts anything. My reiners will stop so fast that they often have a foot in the air that they just change directions mid stride. It's really kinda cool when you get that, because then you know your horse is ready to move up to a faster gait and eventually slide. Of course you won't really need this kind of precision in the back but I don't find it hurts. You can always 'lazy up' the stop so that it's slower and gentler. They learn that much quicker than they learn to shut it down completely 

Also, I practice my whoa when they're good and tired and ready to stop. I don't bother trying to get it at the beginning of a lesson if they're amped up. With the riding horses they always start the day with a back. I've started doing this with my minis when I'm ground driving as well. We don't just RUSH to take off. They learn to stand to start because we're not going anywhere until they're relaxed and the first thing we're going to do is back up. Then once I start moving, I don't really bother with whoa until they're good and tired. The whoa becomes a reward, a rest from the work we were doing. My horses learn to enjoy stopping and resting



They nearly always drop their heads and just relax, they know if they don't take the opportunity to relax, they'll be in for more work. I also practice transitions, over and over and over. W-T-L, T-W, T-L, L-T, L-W, W-L, W-T etc, All of them, over and over. so that they're comfortable with them at any stage. I find the downward transitions easier than the upward transitions but they need work on all of them in addition to the whoa, it helps establish the downward to the walk, and eventual stop as a ritual thing for a cart horse. When I go places if the horses are amped up our warm ups consists of transitions, over and over.

Also, I don't know if you're doing this or not but it's a common mistake so I'll mention it, but make sure you're not hanging on the horse's face when they do stop. I see this with alot of newbie riders and even some very good riders, they think that more pull equals a better stop and they think they need to hold the horse in place. It's not the pull it's the release. Reins that are too tight or jerked too quickly will make a horse jig especially with a sensitive responsive horse. They feel the tension and they get nervous. Soft slow tension on the reins with a quick release as a reward for standing still will achieve more than if you haul back on the reins with all your might and expect them to shut it down. It's not like a car's braking system where you have to apply pressure and then hold them there. Soft hands with a good feel rule! Even horses who are on the bit need a release for stopping nicely. You want your release to be much quicker than your cue at least 3x different. Pull back slowly, count it out one-two-three don't jerk then release quickly as soon as his feet have stopped. Allow him to stretch his neck and relax then find the contact again when you pick up to take off again.


----------



## Grace67 (Jun 24, 2012)

I agree with everything circleinthesand said as I learned to ride working cow horses and cutting horses when I was younger and all my horses are instilled with "whoa" all the time, no matter what the task. Last night I haltered up my new little gelding to move him from one turnout to another and we had a "whoa and stand lesson" as he wanted to rush through the gate and I wanted to take the time to work with him on it. Expect it every time, all the time and eventually you will get it. The biggest problem I had when learning lower level dressage is that they want the horses more forward and don't want the stop/whoa to mean stop on the haunches, its more of a down transition and then ready to move out forward again as if it was just a brief pause so I would get marked down for my "stick the butt in the ground stop"





I also showed a lot of showmanship with horses (and other animals) in 4H and FFA and that gets the horse to working with you and anticipating your next request just by your body language, it all comes into play in your every day work around them too. Safety is key so "whoa" and "stand" are vital to minimizing accidents. I would go back to ground work on all of this and remember that each time you work around your horse even when feeding and cleaning stalls you are interacting with him and can use it as a lesson.

I'm taking notes of the other information on this thread as well as I'll begin ground driving my new gelding soon and its going to be a new adventure for me as well


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 24, 2012)

shorthorsemom said:


> Backing up and retraining for a more solid response is great. Whoa is the most important "gait". If you are green you may be signalling something that is confusing him without knowing it. My trainer gets on me about maintaining contact on my outside rein in a turn. When I forget, my guy gets buggy on his turns. In other words, I am causing the confusion in my hands and he is responding. Also, on halts, when I was very green and would forget to "give" when my boy did his halt, my boys response was to jig around and not stand quietly... again, training of me. I still work with a trainer, there is so much to learn.
> 
> On the topic of work them until they are tired... there is one drawback I remember my trainer telling me... she said that you can work a horse until tired, but if you have a horse that is unstable in certain areas, what you get is a horse that is fit and strong and able to fight you longer.. she told me to separate each training issue into a compartment and work on that... My proper trained hands, equaled good stands... etc. Hope this helps. I knew it was me because when my trainer drove my boy, he was awesome, and when I drove he was trying to get away with things and even looked like he needed training when in fact he was a very sensitive boy that was excellent at picking up my mis-cues and poor signals. We get training whenever I can get her out, can't beat having somebody experienced work with you. best wishes. PS, I do a lot of time on my feet when I my trainer is too busy to come, helps build a great relationship with my boy.


Good point about making sure I am backing off the reins quickly when he stops. I think I am doing that but will make sure. Good reminder there.

I do think that I am so new at driving that I could be causing some confusion in the little guy. I am trying to get back to taking some more lessons but the trainer and I have not been able to get together.

Thanks.


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 24, 2012)

Sandee said:


> Yes, tiring him out is not THE answer but it is a quick fix for the problem. If a horse has been stalled for a long period, say a show etc., then working him before hitching is good as it stretches him and lets him get the tense/tightness out of himself and allows his mind to start working. If you have to do it everytime before you hitch, then it's a training problem and it's never backward to correct a hole in the original training.
> 
> Also you don't say how long you've had him. If he's new to you or the property, he needs an adjustment period to accept his new surroundings and maybe a bit jumpy for a while.


I have only had him for about 9 weeks.


----------



## susanne (Jun 24, 2012)

I would ESPECIALLY advise that you not drive a horse in traffic until you have that solid whoa. Minis may be easier to handle than big horses, but they are just as capable of stepping in front of a car or truck, and once you are in the cart and your feet have left the ground, without a good whoa you aren't going to stop them. (I'm sure you're aware of this -- just a PSA reminder...)

Practicing whoa is part of every warm-up, every time we drive. Mingus has always been the type of horse that likes to test us, so this is just a reminder that whoa means whoa, and that you don't get dessert (trotting) until you eat your vegetables (whoa).


----------



## Minimor (Jun 25, 2012)

I would caution that a harness horse isn't quite the same as a reining horse...I don't ever want a harness horse that in any way associates 'whoa' with 'back'. I've seen too many wrecks with harness horses backed up instead of standing still...if my horse is hitched and fusses about standing still I allow him to move forward before he thinks back up and I don't ever want him taking even one step back unless I ask him to rein back.

I expect my green harness horses to have a good whoa, but for me a good whoa means stopping and standing still long enough for me to get to his head. I do not ask for nor expect extended periods of immobility--that comes with lots of miles and experience and yes, they will stand still longer when tired than they will when fresh.


----------



## Sue_C. (Jun 25, 2012)

> When I first got him we did walking around the neighborhood, then long line but he wanted to get out and get moving so I hooked him up to the cart with Hubby as a header a couple of times, then I hooked him up and we went out on our own. He is actually doing good. He likes trotting.


When I say ground drive, I don't mean necessarily, just walking behind the horse. I guess what I really mean is "double lunging?", but it is with the long reins atached to the bit or cavesson, and the horse W-O-R-K-I-N-G around me...not just sauntering around. You can teach a horse all of the gaits this way, including the "whenIsaywhoaImeanwhoa". LOL!

You say he "likes to trot", and of course he does...that is what HE wants to do...but walking is the absolute most important gait for any horse, but especially a driving horse. Walk-walk-walk...

and I too, disagree with teaching the reining way to a driving horse. I do not ever want my horses to associate whoa with back. I hardly ever back a horse unless asked to in the ring, or once in awhile out of the blue on the rail in the middle of something else. In any show, or at least any that I have been associated with...you will be penalized if at the halt, your horse wobbles or backs of it's own accord. Add to that, as already mentioned; it is a dangerous habit.

When I say WHOA...I DO mean WHOA.


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 25, 2012)

Sue_C. said:


> When I say ground drive, I don't mean necessarily, just walking behind the horse. I guess what I really mean is "double lunging?", but it is with the long reins atached to the bit or cavesson, and the horse W-O-R-K-I-N-G around me...not just sauntering around. You can teach a horse all of the gaits this way, including the "whenIsaywhoaImeanwhoa". LOL!
> 
> You say he "likes to trot", and of course he does...that is what HE wants to do...but walking is the absolute most important gait for any horse, but especially a driving horse. Walk-walk-walk...
> 
> ...


I have to agree with the posters that are saying that backing up a step or two is not what I want when I say whoa I got to thinking about it and he always has been a bit of a bobbler with the whoa. I am going to keep working on it.

One other thing I have to try to remember is that when he isn't listening, it is best to get him moving and then try again.

We always start out our drive on a walk to warm up and then we always finish up our drive on a walk to cool down. Usually we do some walking during the drive, as well. Then I get the harness off and lead him around a bit to make sure he isn't sweaty.

We are trail driving. There is a bunch of dirt roads out here but sometimes we have to go on the paved road for a quarter of a mile. Usually there are little to no cars. I also have a dry lake bed to take him out on.

Looks like the trainer and I might be able to get together in a week or two. I will get some more pointers.

In the meantime, I am going to be working on making sure he doesn't mind cars going by him. I am going to lead the horse and Hubby is going to drive our different cars by him and he is going to drive the truck with a rattling trailer by him. That way we can get him used to it more and see how he is reacting and I can be sure that the vehicles are not coming too close or going way too fast since it will be Hubby behind the wheel.

I can't take him out to the river until I can be more certain that cars and trucks aren't a bother for him. I'll be working on whoa while he is on the lead rope. I may get the cart back on my little horse and have Hubby walk with us on his day off. I hate to give up over one bad day

Honestly, the little guy and I have had numerous great days in the neighborhood. I just think that when we have a bad day, I am trying to figure out what went wrong.


----------



## shorthorsemom (Jun 25, 2012)

Could you post photo of your boy in harness with hook up? There also could be a hook up reason for your boy acting up... collar too low, or too high, britching too low or high.. cart too close, shaft fit etc. There are terrific ladies here than critique your set up and help you there too in case you might want to make some harness or hook up adjustments, tug height etc...

Love this forum for hook up assistance and advice based on photos.

Be very careful, you don't want to invite a big wreck by trying to move on too quickly. Until I had a solid whoa on my boy, my trainer didn't let me out of the round pen. Also.. there is WHOA and there is also a STAND. I had to do a ton of work on my boy for both, he was getting away with murder on the halts and he had a run away in his past, so we constantly work on that.

I do not ever want my boy backing up after a whoa either. I will teach backing as a separate exercise. Countless problems and danger if you boy would be trained to expect backing a few steps with a halt. You can get backed into a ditch, into a car... I live in amish country and the roads are loaded with horses that don't have a good halt or stand and I have seen the results and scary results from horses backing in harness when they should be standing. best wishes, thanks for bringing to the forum... Line driving can be a great way to work halts and stands. have somebody watch your hands too for the "release".. take care, go slow, you can not go wrong by taking your time, but tons can go wrong rushing ahead.. Don't worry, you are smart to step back and evaluate.

photos can help, sometimes your horse is acting up trying to tell you something about the hook up, too long shafts can poke on turns, problems with collar and britching can make him be holding the cart with just the saddle and it is uncomfortable, britching keeps the cart from going forward down hills etc...Not saying you are doing anything wrong, but I know that I have made quite a few harness adjustments (directed by my trainer) to make my guy more comfortable.


----------



## Renolizzie (Jun 25, 2012)

shorthorsemom said:


> Could you post photo of your boy in harness with hook up? There also could be a hook up reason for your boy acting up... collar too low, or too high, britching too low or high.. cart too close, shaft fit etc. There are terrific ladies here than critique your set up and help you there too in case you might want to make some harness or hook up adjustments, tug height etc...
> 
> Love this forum for hook up assistance and advice based on photos.
> 
> ...


Thanks for the encouragement shorthorse mom. I will try to get pictures when I hook him up to the cart again and then I will see if I can manage to post them. Yep, I think I will take my time to make sure that every thing is going good with my little guy. I am really hoping to get the trainer out here to make sure I am getting the cart hooked up right and to make sure the harness and the bridle are right and get some feedback on how I am doing with my hands and reining.

I could be doing plenty wrong The way I see it, I will have to keep reading up and talking to people and muddling through without rushing and getting the trainer out here when I can. I think it would be great if my little guy could be in the town's 4 block long parade next Memorial Day Weekend in 2013 so I have lots of time to work on stuff. If we don't make that goal, then there is always the next year.

I love this horse and I truly enjoy learning about another species.


----------



## shorthorsemom (Jun 27, 2012)

I can relate to everything you are saying. I had a small wreck earlier this year coming out of a turn in the ring my boy tossed in a buck and got his leg over the shaft. He then bucked like crazy and broke my harness but luckily my fast acting trainer was there and talked me through getting him (and me) out of the mess. We have had a few lessons since and are doing great, but then my trainers horse foundered and she was too busy to come for a few weeks. I am groundworking until she comes back. Better safe than sorry and I am fairly sure my wreck would have been a major one instead of a minor one if I had not had a trainer working with me that day. My boy needs work and exercise, but we are not doing it driving unsupervised for now. I am just too green. Interesting going back through my mind on the wreck and I am fairly certain I pulled right and dropped my left rein and because my boy for a moment thought he was going out through the gate and I turned abruptly instead, he let me know my green hands ticked him off. My cart has lower shafts and we had not installed the bucking strap as yet, so everything lined up for a perfect storm that day.

I love my boy too. Working toward a parade next year sounds like a great goal. take care and keep us posted..ps. I know it can be a little frustrating going back, I am feeling that right now, but know that backing up a bit is what I have to do right now. you are smart to self evaluate and seek help.. These folks here are awesome for driving advice... different opinions always available, you learn from all of them.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 2, 2012)

Renolizzie said:


> Okay, I talked to one of the people in my area that does mini horse cart driving and she thinks that I should just keep going with the little guy pulling the cart but when he doesn't want to whoa properly to make him move forwards and not let him "get way with" his bad behavior.
> She says that once her horses are pulling a cart she doesn't go backwards in training, basically.


First of all, there is no such thing as “mini horse cart driving.”




There is only “driving,” by which I mean you should train your little guy the exact same way you’d train a full-sized driving horse. Look for any driving instructor in your area, not just a mini trainer! You’ll probably get better information from someone with a broad base and experience in many breeds.

Secondly, I disagree with whoever advised you and said that she doesn’t go backwards in training. For one thing there is nothing wrong with going back to firm up missed steps or deepen the horse’s understanding of something they aren’t quite getting, and for another going back to long-lining or dragging something isn’t necessarily going backwards at all. I may take my experienced horse back to long-lines to teach something that is better learned without the cart, or put my youngster in a drag long after he’s hitched to build his muscles and teach him how to hold a steady gait on the double-lunge. I’m working on _different_ things, not old stuff! Most experienced trainers do this with their horses as far as I know.

For your boy’s not standing, I would absolutely continue to work with him in-hand and ground-driving and teach him that when you say Whoa, you mean it. At the same time you need to set him up for success by not asking for the halt when he’s wired and asking him to move off just before he’s at his limit rather than pushing and pushing for a specific amount of time like 5 or 10 seconds when he may only be able to give you 2 or 3 to start with. The important part is to build on it each time you ask and get it through his head that the fastest way to be allowed to move forward is to stand quietly. Give him that reward quickly in the beginning so he gets the idea but don’t let him move off, EVER, without your permission. He has to give you at least a moment of immobility before you release him. If he absolutely can’t, if he’s starting to back into a fence or threaten to rear or some other dangerous behavior, by all means push him forward but immediately and calmly make him work so hard he starts to regret it and wish for a chance to stop. Lots of trotting circles and serpentines or walking in deep footing, figure eights, etc. You aren’t doing this to punish him but to offer a clear contrast: Stand quietly when I give you the opportunity, or get tired. It doesn’t usually take them long to get it if you’re consistent.



circlesinthesand said:


> So when I do ask for the whoa I always back a step or two sometimes more depending on how quickly the horse responds. General rule of thumb is for every step they take over my stopping point, they have to back to that stopping point. The quicker they learn to back with a whoa the quicker they'll learn to down shift those gears and eventually they start to relax into the stop and you won't need to back. Most horses don't really WANT to back at first and a tense horse will have a hard time doing so. Once you get them thinking back anytime you ask for a stop, whoa is hardly ever a problem again because it gets them to think first and in turn to relax.


In general I want to compliment Circlesinthesand for an excellent post, and for providing another perspective on the stop. Different disciplines do teach things differently and it’s always good to consider whether techniques from one may be helpful in another. In this case though, I have to agree with Minimor and Sue C. that I don’t want a driving horse thinking “back” on their own. It can turn into a nasty evasion in a hurry and a very dangerous one at that. My driving pair have suddenly decided that they like to spontaneously back up and it’s driving me insane! Both horses know better and they’re very correct and mannerly about it…except that I didn’t ask for the back and they just keep going in a perfect straight line together until I really get after them with the whip. This habit popped up without warning a couple drives ago and I intend to put a stop to it just as quickly because that is NOT something they get to do. Ever. I’m going to check that their equipment isn’t causing some sort of incidental cue or making it more comfortable for them to back away for some reason but regardless of the reason it needs to stop. One of these days there’s going to be a pedestrian or a ditch behind us and then we’d be in a world of hurt and all because I didn’t keep their minds on going forwards.

Another reason to avoid that western halt method for driving horses is because it is far more of a strain on them with a cart behind that it is for a riding horse. ESPECIALLY for a green horse, having that heavy cart suddenly slam them in the rump (or worse, the saddle) during a fast halt is confusing and unbalancing, and then to ask a tense horse to not only step back (which is, as you noted, difficult) but to shove the cart back as well is almost guaranteed to cause resistance and confusion. It comes across as a punishment, not training, and in inexperienced hands could easily cause the horse to rear and either refuse to back at all or learn to do so in a terrible rush because the groundwork was not laid properly. In the right hands and in measured doses this technique can be useful, but I would not recommend it for driving horses in general and especially not for green drivers.



Grace67 said:


> The biggest problem I had when learning lower level dressage is that they want the horses more forward and don't want the stop/whoa to mean stop on the haunches, it’s more of a down transition and then ready to move out forward again as if it was just a brief pause so I would get marked down for my "stick the butt in the ground stop"


Yep. The halt in dressage is an active gait with the horse balanced on all four feet and ready to immediately and smoothly move out- a collection of his energy into an immobile pause, not an emergency stop or down-time between movements.



For that reason I do maintain contact with my driven dressage horse’s mouth during halts but I also don’t ask him to stand that way longer than a few seconds as I salute or acknowledge the judge. My trainer taught me A) not to drop contact and let the horse stretch during a dressage halt, and B) that there is a difference between a working halt and a take-a-break-whoa and if I expect the horse to stand for more than a few seconds, I need to release the reins and let him relax. I use “Whoa” with contact to tell the horse to make a downward transition to halt and “Whoa, Stand” with a rein release to tell him to stay there. Otherwise he waits on his toes for me to tell him what to do next and for some strange reason, he gets impatient after awhile! LOL



Sue_C. said:


> You say he "likes to trot", and of course he does...that is what HE wants to do...but walking is the absolute most important gait for any horse, but especially a driving horse. Walk-walk-walk...


Yep. I made this mistake with Kody, my older gelding, and ended up with a horse who joyfully blew off steam for the first few minutes of our drive at a fast trot or gallop (we do combined driving events so canter is a working gait for us) and then settled happily into his work. I didn’t think it was that much of a problem because he waited until told to go up from a calm walk, would stop immediately if I told him to and would then stand quietly, so surely it was just this little indulgence between the two of us…? Wrong. LOL. He hurt his back a few years later and I spent a lot of time retraining him to walk for the first fifteen to twenty minutes because his muscles were far too tight to do anything more without pain. It wasn’t until we had to walk that I realized how ingrained the habit of having his little gallop had become! He was VERY unhappy with being forced to walk that long and several times I had to turn him around and go a bit towards home to get my point across that if he couldn’t stay calm when allowed to move up, he couldn’t go out. I especially realized what a bad habit it was when I considered the idea of having this horse be my youngster’s mentor in a pair. The thought of what would happen if he tried to take off when hitched to my green baby made my blood run cold and brought a new resolve to retrain him. It took time but now he warms up properly at a walk, trots off quietly when asked to and doesn’t get strong until later in the drive when we’re both ready for harder work. I made sure I did things right with the baby from the start and am glad I did! Don’t let your boy set the rules. YOU are the driver.

Leia


----------



## Renolizzie (Jul 2, 2012)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> First of all, there is no such thing as “mini horse cart driving.”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the thorough comment. I have been having my little guy walk for the first quarter mile out of the gate. If he is full of beans, I make him take the sandier road to start with so he has to work a bit harder. We also walk for the last quarter mile back to the gate when we are finishing up. Of course, I vary it a little bit so that he doesn't get to thinking he knows everything like going different directions out of the gate or walking for more than the quarter of a mile. When we get back to the yard, sometimes I have him drive around a bit more so that he doesn't think just getting home means we are done.

I have been walking him around the neighborhood on a lead line to make sure that he is getting a chance to see lots of yards and cars while we are out and about. He is a very curious little horse and loves to meet the neighbors. I ask him to "whoa" and then we are practicing "stand". If he moves out before I ask him to walk, I circle him right back around to where we were standing and ask again. I think we are improving. He seems to whoa fine but he doesn't like to stand. I got to thinking about it and he never has been the best at standing still in the cart even when we went to look at him. There were five or six of us there and he wanted to see the people and sniff their pockets for treats so he would sneak forwards and have to be whoaed again. I don't give him any treats at this time since I think being a cookie monster is sort of a bad habit.

Fortunately, I did get a horse I really like and we are doing pretty good working together. He walks up and puts his little face into the halter and he is really good about being brushed and combed and getting his feet cleaned. All animals and their owners have things they need to work on and we are no exception I am trying to set up some good habits like pausing at the gate to go into or out of the pen and waiting to until I want to go in, walking when we get moving in the cart, not rushing but walking to get from point A to point B., etc.

Lately, he is acting like "Can we go for a walk, please" which I think at least means that we are having fun when we go out. He seems like an adventure horse that likes getting out and doing things with me and he isn't really spooky although he has his little moments. I think with some more work and experiences in new places, he will be doing great! The neighbor said she would help me by driving her ATV by him since he seems a little worried about motorcycles. In fact, one of the kids I know has a motorcycle and I might have him go by the little guy if I think the kid will listen to what I want from him like going slow and staying far enough away from him.

Thanks again!


----------



## Shastataz11 (Jul 3, 2012)

Ok. I am probrably going to get a lot of flack for what my reaponse is to your issue but I am gonna tell you anyway. My mare could not get the concept of walk when hitched to a vehicle. In hand and grnd driving was not a problem. So I sent her to a trainer for 30 days. After about 2weeks the trainer was still not able to get her to stand. She would stop for about 30 seconds and she wanted to go. Mind you this mare loves to go! When the trainer decided to use a twisted wire bit (that didnt work either) I brought her home. I decided we would figure it out... I was in the cart in the driveway one day and the neighbor stopped. Fanci didnt want to stand still so I took the but end of my whip and gently scratched her rearend.... what horse doesnt like a good scratch? She relaxed and leaned back just enoigh to enjoy it! Woohoo I found the solution. Every time we stopped I would scratch her on the rump. I did this everyday for about a week and gradually backed off to every other time less and less until now its just every now and then. I am proud to say that she will now stop on a dime. I am not saying that this is your answer. But I am saying to find what works for you and your horse. It could be as simple as a good scratch on the rump!


----------



## Jetiki (Jul 3, 2012)

Break it down into 2 steps, whoa and stand, I teach whoa to stop and nothing else. Stand means don't move until I tell you to do so. I start this in the halter then transfer it to driving. I never ask for very long in the beginning, working it up to having a conversation with the neighbor and the horse not moving.


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Jul 3, 2012)

Here is a thought. I was taught this at a driving class I went to last fall.

Be sure you are sitting squarely in the seat, back straight, your behind firmly pushed into the seat. Use your wrists on the reins, not your arms. Sit in the seat, not saying anything, just keeping enough pressure on the reins to signal the whoa, calmly, as though you have all day. Ho hum, I think I'll take a nap. Do this until he stops fidgeting, stands still, and sighs/licks.

Your position in the seat is critical. If you are leaning forward he is getting a body signal to go ahead. Be sure you are centered with all your weight over the axle so no downward pressure is on the shafts, all your weight on your behind.

Another thing that helps, I think, is half halts.

I also think going back a step is good. Don't think of it as going backward, think of it as a refresher course, or a way to do something new such as going over poles, walking on a board, going around cones, sidepassing in harness. Practice backing straight. Lots of things to do ground driving!

Have his teeth been checked? He may be trying to avoid pressure of some sort.

Good luck!


----------



## Renolizzie (Jul 3, 2012)

Marsha Cassada said:


> Here is a thought. I was taught this at a driving class I went to last fall.
> 
> Be sure you are sitting squarely in the seat, back straight, your behind firmly pushed into the seat. Use your wrists on the reins, not your arms. Sit in the seat, not saying anything, just keeping enough pressure on the reins to signal the whoa, calmly, as though you have all day. Ho hum, I think I'll take a nap. Do this until he stops fidgeting, stands still, and sighs/licks.
> 
> ...


He had is teeth floated just before I got him in April. I do want to get the vet to check his teeth and give him shots in September but I may do it sooner if I decide it really is his teeth that might be bothering him.

Good idea on remembering positioning in the seat and using the wrists for the whoa.

Tomorrow we are going to work on having a rattling truck and trailer go by him while I lead him in a halter. Hubby is home and the trailer is already on the truck. I am going to have Hubby come by in different directions and then I am going to have Hubby make sure the truck makes the bump rattle noise when he crosses the road base road over the pavement and onto the dirt a few times.


----------



## disneyhorse (Jul 4, 2012)

I'd like to echo that reining and driving are two very very different worlds. Driving horses, for safety, should be extremely forward. I don't even teach my green driving horse's to back until we've got a lot of the basics down pat. It's easier for a driving horse to evade while backing, as you don't have your seat and leg to help you.


----------

