# Why did gelding kill my Jack?



## farmdude (Nov 7, 2004)

Has this happened to anyone else? I think he had a bad reaction to the sedative. He trembled during and after the procedure. it took him a long time ( 2 hours) to "recover" and get back on his feet. He still trembled 14 hours later. He was gelded at 10:30 am. Didn't get on his feet until 1 pm. this is even with a reversel drug. I checked on him at 2 am before i went to bed. He seems ok, just sluggish and still trembling. I found him dead When I got up this morning. I checked his stitches to see if he had a hernia. They were still intact and no buldge. So I think is was a reaction to the drugs. I am very, very sad about this. I feel so guilty for having this done to him. Should I inform the vet? Is he liable at all? I have had this vet out before and he castrated my goats and sheep with no ill effects. So I trusted him to do the donkey.


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## wewindwalker (Nov 7, 2004)

I'm so sorry for your loss and "YES" I would call the vet.






My vet stayes till my guys are up and moveing and recovered.


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## shminifancier (Nov 7, 2004)

I am sorry for your lose, wow how terrible... I do know that any gelding procedure can do risky I know when I had an Arabian colt gelded that the accident insurance I had on him was temporarily suspended for 48 hours after the gelding procedure...And operation on an animal is a risk...But wow to be found like that the next day gone uff da...I would sure talk to your vet and see what he has to say about this...I do know donkeys are more difficult to geld then horses they have tougher skin and bleed way more....... I talked to my vet about this and he was aware of it but STILL was surprised at the amount that he did bleed and did not make the opening as large as he really wanted to do...But everythjing went fine..

Just something to take under consideration I guess, but this does not bring your guy back...But don't take it to heart so much you did what would be better for your pony becuase of the more aggressiveness the jack showed.....And they can be quite dangerous at times to be around so I have heard....I kept mine a jack untill he was 6 never used him but had planned on it, then I sold my mini mares so I still kept him whole, untill up to the time I was going to sell him, then I had him (cut)... Now I have a 2 yr. old mini jack but no other critters but i think I will get him taken care of to make a better companion and pet.

My thoughts and prayers are with you in your time of despair...


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## Bess Kelly (Nov 7, 2004)

ABSOLUTELY tell your vet!! My vet, also, does not leave until he feels the animal has made a good recovery. He'll even call back to be sure later.....some animals just can't adjust, most do fine.

I've had goats that died from anesthesia. They are not tolerant of such and rarely did I ever let them use it on them.


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## minimule (Nov 7, 2004)

I do know that donkeys react to drugs differently than horses. Some drugs don't work at all, others have very ill effects. My vet doesn't stitch up after gelding. He prefers keeping the wound open so it can drain on it's own.

I would definitely contact your vet. Not much he can do for your boy but it may help him in the future.

Sorry you lost your boy though.


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## mountain_waif (Nov 7, 2004)

....


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## runaway ranch (Nov 7, 2004)

How horrible! You must be so upset. I would talk to your vet, I'm surprised that the vet left before your donk was up and doing okay.


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## Ashley (Nov 7, 2004)

Yes I would tell the vet also. What caught my attention was that he stiched him up?????? Also our horses are always up and moveing before the vet leaves, they are all up with in 10 mins after the procedure.


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## mizbeth (Nov 8, 2004)

I would definately call the vet! In fact I would have called him later in the day. They should be up and recovering in minutes after the surgery.

So sorry about your little fella.

B


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## farmdude (Nov 8, 2004)

It is after 3 am. I am madder than heck and can't eat or sleep. I found out tonight from another equine person that they too have had problems with this same vet. He came out to geld her horse and he gave him the wrong dosage of the wrong sedative. She was wise enough to call in another vet who rushed in, took control and corrected things. The vet in question is excellent with other livestock but is clueless with equine. Why would a vet who doesn't understand the needs of equines, practice and perform equine procedures? I had discussed equines with him months ago and was assurred he knew what he was doing. If he was inexperianced or unsure, he should have voiced it at one time or another. I put my faith in him and it cost me my boy's life plus the vet bill and the value of the Jack. Should I get an attorney? Who do I file a greivence with? This is a clear cut case of malpractice. I am just sick about this. Today I had to lay him to rest instead of feeding him, petting him, and loving him. I have no real friends or family. I live for my animals. They motivate me to get out of bed everyday and face the world. They rely on me to live as much as I rely on them for a purpose in life. I used bad judgement in choosing what to do. I feel so guilty and angry at the same time. I'm so tired and not sure what actions to take. Any advice will be greatly appreciated.Thank you all for your kind words and understanding. Nonanimal people just don't get it.


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## SunQuest (Nov 8, 2004)

Oh you poor dear! How terrible! Hugs!

First, please don't blame yourself. You took reasonable measures to ensure your jack's safety. You talked with the vet and you thought you had all the answers. No blame to be placed on you.

Like the others stated, this vet should never have left until the horse was recovered, ESPECIALLY since he wasn't reacting well even with the reversal drug! Further, your vet should have called you back to verify how your baby was doing since it was not a smooth procedure.

I would most definately call your vet and let him know what happened. Further, I would at the minimum call your State Vet and file a complaint about this. At least then there is a record that you lost your Jack because of how this was handled.

You may also wish to contact an attorney that practices equine law and see what recourse you may have against him.

Again, don't blame yourself. It was your Jack's time, and nothing you would have done would have prevented the loss.... I always say that "When your time is up, it is up. Doesn't matter if you are crossing the road, or laying in bed. Nothing one can do will stop the inevitable." Same is true for animals. I really believe that.

Many warm wishes and hugs to you.


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Nov 8, 2004)

Farmdude...I am so sorry about what happened. Linda (my vet from Crivitz) always stays out till the horses are up and everything seems to be Ok. I would definitely get in touch with your vet and let him know what happened! I am going to pm you. You definitely need to call Madison about this and file a complaint. Corinne


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## farmdude (Nov 9, 2004)

I called the Pulaski Vet clinic to report the donkey's death. Dr. Burno was out on a call. I reported it to the receptionist. She was very nice and gave her sympathy. I did not get a follow up call from the Vet, Dr. Burno of the (Pulaski Wi.) Vet clinic. I would like to file a complaint. How do I go about doing this? any info on that would be appreciate it. Thank you all for your support.


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## SunQuest (Nov 9, 2004)

Here is are some links that I found when I did a search on "filing a veterinary complaint" and using www.dogpile.com as the search engine... There were lots of sites that looked like they could help, but this link is what I think you really are looking for as it tells you how to file a complaint http://www.vetabusenetwork.com/Faqsnew.htm#how and in that url is a link to the state boards that license vets. Here is that link to the state board contact info: http://members.verizon.net/~vze2r6qt/supplies/vetboard.htm

Hope this help to get you started. Please do follow through with logging a complaint. After all, gelding is a common procedure, and while it is not a risky thing to do, you should not have been overlooked like you are from this vet.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 9, 2004)

I am so very, very sorry for your loss. Please do not think this is common, or usual. In all the years I have been breeding (nearly all my life) I have NEVER even heard of an animal dieing, not first hand. We all know it is a _possibility_ but I have never had it happen. I do know ' from the Minis, that the little ones need half the prescribed dosage for their weight, and my Vet too, stays until he is satisfied everything is OK and always leaves his mobile number for a direct call if I have any problems. (never have) At the very least I would be filing a complaint against this man. I would not be paying any bill, either.


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## qtrrae (Nov 9, 2004)

farmdude, I am so sorry that you have lost your little jack. What an awful thing to happen!!

I have 2 - 5 month old jacks that both will need to be gelded, I am so worried about having this procedure done.

I feel this is definitely a clear cut case of malpractice.

Hugs to you and again, I'm so sorry that you lost your little man!!


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Nov 9, 2004)

Hi farmdude, I am going to pm you with some info. I am sure Dr. Paula does donkeys, and I know that the Gillett Vet clinic does too. Dr. Llinda dont really go down as far as your house, but I am sure in a emergency situation she would. I will send you the names of the vets up this way that I would not trust or use with horses or donkeys, in the meantime keep on Dr. Burno's butt about this! Corinne


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## farmdude (Nov 10, 2004)

I checked out the wedsite that was posted. Thank you. They suggested that before filing a complaint with the state, file a formal complaint with the party involved. I did call and inform the Vet, got no reply. I guess I was to nice. I'll call again tomorrow and clearly state how upset I am and that I want to be reimbursted for the vet bill ($105.) and the value of the donkey. Is that fair? what should I ask for the value of the donkey? He was a rescue. This isn't about money. I'd rather be out the money and have my Freddy. No one can bring him back. I feel they should pay as a principle. I think I should also file a complaint with the state. Go the whole nine yards. Am I being to bitter?


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 10, 2004)

I would value the donkey at what he would have brought as a gelding. I would also add a fee for your mental anguish that you can, if you wish, tell them you will waive . You are not doing this to make money, we understand that, but you should be doing it for the sake of the next animal this person gelds.


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Nov 10, 2004)

HI Mark, rabbitsfizz is right...do this for the sake of the next donkey or horse he might try to geld. We all know how much you loved your Freddy, and what a great loss he is to you, but remember you did what you thought was best for him...and in his short life at least he got to know what "being a loved pet" was. He was one of the few lucky ones that did come to you thru a rescue and ended up in a caring home. Corinne


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## farmdude (Nov 16, 2004)

I posted this situation at a yahoo miniature donkey group. The feed back was very different. Many spoke in the defense of the vet stating these things can happen and there is no way of knowing until it happens.




Others stated it was my fault he died because I went to work after he was up and about.



That I should have known he was about to die.



There were some that backed up the things stated here. I do appreciate all veiws. Hindsight is always 20/20. I learned a lot from all this and hopefully many donkey's lives will be saved by knowledge learned by this situation.


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## Tabitha (Nov 16, 2004)

It's reasonable to ask for the vet fee for the procedure to be waived; I'm not sure that it's reasonable to ask for the replacement cost of the donkey, & unless you file an actual lawsuit I'm sure extra for mental anguish does not come into it.

I'd also think that before you can pursue this much further you will need to know exactly WHY your donkey died. Did you have a necropsy done? To prove malpractice you need to know if the vet used the wrong drug, was it simply a bad reaction to the right drug, did the donkey bleed to death internally? Was there some existing condition which made him a high risk for surgery? It isn't right that the vet has not returned your calls since you notified him of the death. However, if you were to charge negligence because he did not come back to check on Freddy after the surgery, well, did you actually call him at any point between the surgery & the death, to express concern over Freddy's condition? If he was called & did not respond, that's one thing, but if he was never called he cannot be blamed for not giving follow up care. I'm not meaning to sound callous here, but there is a certain amount of proof which is needed, I believe, if you are going to pursue this very far.

The last animal we had gelded here was a llama. The vet did not stay until he was back on his feet, but she did stress how important it was for me to watch him closely until he was back on his feet & steady--I was not to leave him alone for the afternoon. It caused me major flack at work because I was expected back to the office after noon & I could not go.

We have never lost a large animal to the gelding procedure. Last year we did have a cat die during surgery for neutering. He was a crypt & when they gave him a bit more anesthetic so that they could open him up (just as if it were a female being spayed) he quit breathing & could not be revived. The vet was nearly as upset as I was, so she insisted on doing an autopsy, & she found that the cat had a heart defect--his heart was just too weak to compensate for the anesthetic. I've known of a couple horses which died of anaphylactic shock following an injection of penicillin--the vet was right there in both cases, but the horses could not be saved. In some situations it just isn't the vet's fault & to prove negligence or malpractice you do need to know the cause of death.


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Nov 16, 2004)

HI Mark, I got your letter and thought it was very professional and right to the point. I hope everythying works out for you. Also, CONGRADULATIONS...on the new rescue project! Corinne


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## Ashley (Nov 16, 2004)

Well I do agree with the part the mistakes happen. NO matter a persons degree or what ever they are human and do make mistakes as well.

Heck I got a gelding now who doesnt pee right. HE does not drop at all. I like to think it was a mistake, and they didnt know it would happen.


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## Hosscrazy (Nov 17, 2004)

There is someone I met on this forum years ago, who had donkeys as well as minis. She also lost a donkey once to post-gelding surgery. Her vet said it was a bad reaction to the sedations. I am so, so sorry...


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## Marty (Nov 17, 2004)

Dear Farmdude, I have seen this post lay here for quite some time and just now decided to read it.

I am simply OUTRAGED. The minute you said your little jack was trembeling before and after is a RED FLAG to me that the med was either miscalculated or something was wrong with it. I know there is a difference between jacks and meds on horses but this still was a warning sign that things were going badly and he had no business leaving you under these circumstances.

I have been VERY mistreated and also suffered abuse from certain vets in my area who did not give a darn about my animals or me. They did less than terrible and horrific work on my animals in our time of need for medical assistance.

I learned that I did not have to take it and I no longer do put up with this kind of thing from any vet.

FILE that report to the state licenceing board and get that ball rolling.

I would also file a claim in your local small claims court for the highest amount of money they allow which here I believe is $5,000. Get all your records and informtaion in a row and raise HECK over this.

I am so sorry for your loss.


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## mosho (Nov 18, 2004)

I am so sorry. No vet should be able to commit something when they don't know what they are doing.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Nov 20, 2004)

First off i am so sorry at the loss of your donkey.

As far as filing a complaint and getting the value of your donkey not to sound cold but.. was a necropsy done? I would think this would be needed to show it wasnt just a fluke the small percentage that has a reaction or dies after anesthia but something he did very wrong, doses he gave that were inappropriate. putting any animal under (or person) is always a risk and even the most simple surgery can lead to death.

even if you filed a suit and won (which would be hard not impossible but hard) you dont get any mental anguish animals are looked at as property inthe eyes of the court

It is not your fault by any means but is important that any animal is watched closely after even minor surgery and any thing out of the ordinary is reported to the vet right away

again i am very sorry for your loss however this is a risk that is always there be it getting a dog or cat neutered or what have you.

I do think that while it is very sad for you and others have learned as well


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Nov 21, 2004)

i also wanted to say not in defense of this vet at all but.. what constitues a good vet is very subjective for everyone.

There is a hosptial here that after being there ALOT day and night (after visiting hours) there sanitarty practices and overall ideals certainly dont mesh with mine or any hosptial i have ever been to or had horses to (which sadly over the years has been a few) but they are the "biggest" and "most modern" here and there are those that swear by them- me i would drive my horse out of state or to the other sideof the state to the teaching college before ever stepping foot or hoof there again after what i saw and heard on my many times there.

I happen to be one who comes to feed my own horses 2 times a day there own feed and such so i am there plenty when i have a horse there which makes me a bit more privy to what is going on and when but

anyway my point is.. what one person views as totally incompetent another views as the best there is


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## shminifancier (Nov 21, 2004)

> what one person views as totally incompetent another views as the best there is


It is incompetent for His vet to LEAVE Before the donkey even got up and was out of being tranquilized~!!! IMO....


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## Tabitha (Nov 22, 2004)

> It is incompetent for His vet to LEAVE Before the donkey even got up and was out of being tranquilized~!!! IMO....


See, now I do not call that incompetent. As I said above, when we had our llama gelded the vet did not wait around until he got up. He was awake, but not trying to get up yet when she left. There was no reason for her or I to assume there would be any problem with him getting to his feet in the next hour or so.


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## Ashley (Nov 22, 2004)

When we have anything gelded the vet always reverses the meds right after she is done. He is then up with in 5 mins.

I also think thou, when she seen the donkey shakeing the vet should of been back out then.


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## SunQuest (Nov 22, 2004)

This following statement in the original post, along with the lack of "bedside manners" is what made me say that the vet should have further action taken against him:



> He trembled during and after the procedure. it took him a long time ( 2 hours) to "recover" and get back on his feet. He still trembled 14 hours later. He was gelded at 10:30 am. Didn't get on his feet until 1 pm. this is even with a reversel drug.


I feel like Ashley does about this. If the jack was trembling as stated above, there was obviously something wrong, and the jack was most likely in a drug induced or surgery induced shock at the minimum. Shock is not something to be taken lightly. Any vet should know this and should have been VERY concerned and should have been following this animal a little more closely.

Further ANY time an animal has that many problems recovering, something went wrong, especially since a reversal drug was also given and it still took 2 hours for the animal to stand. It could be that the animal was overly sensative to the drugs, or it could be a mistake on the part of the vet. Yes, mistakes can happen. But, why did the vet not even care so much that he didn't even return the call after the jack passed with an "I'm so sorry for your loss" statement!

And while some think that it is not unusual for a vet to leave while the animal is still down, I have never had a vet do that with my horses. In all the years that I have owned horses (Since the late 70's), our vets, and there have been several from different facilities, have ALWAYS stayed until the animal was fully standing and not stumbling around and possibly falling into things. Good thing.... I had an Arab gelding that had a hard time of it and faught the anesthesia as he was coming out of it and needed to be partly drugged a second time to keep him from hurting himself as he faught the effects of the drugs. If my vet had left with him laying there until he recovered, we would have had a dead horse as he was trying to flip himself while trying to get to his feet. It was one of the worst gelding proceedures that I have ever wittnessed.

I am more than willing to work with vets, realize they are human, and forgive if something this severe happens, as I know that some things are out of one's control. BUT.... IMO.... any vet that does not care enough to even return my calls deserves to have other options looked into. I have NEVER had a vet not care enough to follow up with me with at least a phone call when my animals have a hard time with proceedures. And in fact, I even had a vet come out and look at an Arab that broke his neck and not charge me for a visit to tell me why the horse died. And EVERY vet that I have used has always sent personal condolenses to me, by a phone call or a sympathy card, when I lost an animal.

Even if the necropsy wasn't done, I would still file a complaint in this case. You see, it is VERY important that the veterinary board knows about this so that the jack becomes a statistic that is linked with this vet. This may not be the only case that has happened, and when others have voice concerns, well... Even if one does not recover anything from this financially, at least the incident is on file and if it turns out that others have issues, then you all can work together to save other animals from suffering the same fate. If this really is a fluke, and the jack was just one of the unlucky ones, then that will be on record.

Again, the biggest reason I would follow this course of action is that the vet didn't even return the call after the jack died so that the vet could offer to do a necropsy, at the owner's cost, so that the owner may find some peace in knowing what happened instead of blaming one's self for it happening, and the vet could have proved that this situation was out of his control at the same time. At the very least, this vet should have offered some verbal support which could have made the owner feel less at fault over the outcome.


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## Minimor (Nov 23, 2004)

I personally would have called (or gone to see) the vet & DEMANDED an explanation for why the donkey died. It is very bad that he didn't return the call to discuss the death once he was advised of it.



> Even if the necropsy wasn't done, I would still file a complaint in this case. You see, it is VERY important that the veterinary board knows about this so that the jack becomes a statistic that is linked with this vet.


 I'm not sure that any veterinary board would--or should--put anything like this on a vet's file if there is no proof. They may contact the vet & ask for his explanation of events, but I doubt that it would go any further than that--nothing put in writing in his file--unless there is some actual proof of wrongdoing on his part.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Nov 23, 2004)

exactly minimor and as far as shaking it can happen and actually isnta to uncommon side effect of anesthia happens to people as well.. in fact happens to me and i am not in shock when it does.. different drugs effect people differently - do i think i would use a vet who acted like this NO of course i wouldnt.. i think there was maybe lack of communication on both sides perhaps the vet assumed the owner would stay home with him and watch him ready to call right away if there is a problem.. perhaps the owner assumed that if the vet left and said all looked to be ok that all would be ok and went on to work thinking they were doing the right thing.

Vets should have great people skills but not all do - sometimes they get so focused on the job and what normally happens that they forget how personal and tragic it is for each indvidual owner.. I am not defending this vet at all but that was something i had to learn the hard way after moving here to ID and going to the vet hosptial here - it takes a long time to find not only a competent vet but one whose personality meshes with yours and meets your emotional needs to the best of there ability


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