# Designer Dogs



## LowriseMinis (Dec 16, 2008)

It pains me to see people purposely breeding mutts, and I don't care what cute name people use, 'designer dogs' are MUTTS. Especially with so many mutts in shelters, and especially with the economy the way it is right now. Most people are talking about breeding fewer horses, or not breeding at all, but people are still happy to churn out designer Cockadoodlepooshihugs.

So I ask again: why?

I've never known a 'designer' breeder who did the applicable genetic testing. There's really no way to breed for 'betterment of the breed' when you're breeding mutts. The only purpose I see is to create cute puppies with cute names and sell them for high dollar to people who don't know any better, which IMO is a pretty poor reason to breed anything.

Discuss.


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## RockRiverTiff (Dec 16, 2008)

Well mixed breeds/hybrids/mutts (whatever you want to call them) do in my opinion have a purpose. There are some very popular, proven crosses that combine the best of both worlds for people looking for something they can't find in a single breed. I've owned and worked with some really cool mutts. That said, I too am scratching my head at why the pet stores are suddenly offering so many non-papered puppies. As if the puppy mills weren't bad enough, now we're intentionally creating dogs with no sustainable value? It's crazy!


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## bingo (Dec 16, 2008)

Why? People buy them and money is being made. Same with horses there are some who would think the 30-75 dollar auction prices to KB is money being made. Sad but true.


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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Might as well throw a gas barrel in a fire, this one's going to get hot quick I think




!

I know this has been discussed on here before.

My 2 cents: I'm HUGE into rescue, and adopting pets in need of homes from a reputable shelter/rescue, but that doesn't mean I'm against all breeding. I'm very ok with responsible breeding. I think there SHOULD be knowledgeable folks out there trying to create the best dog they can. Now - are MOST of the folks breeding these designer dogs responsible breeders? I would guess most of them are NOT.

But, I can see some appeal in some of these mixes, and there is a market for them after all. Is it really more wrong to breed a doxie-poodle cross (of which there would be demand for in my area) or a purebred lab (of which there are just too many of in my area, thus very little demand, thus many of them end up in shelters, thus many of them DIE).

I think ANYone breeding an animal should have appropriate testing done for that particular breed, and the animal should have good conformation, temperament, etc.

So I guess my thoughts are - if you are going to breed that doxie-poo (or whatever), you best be doing all the testing for each breeding animal that you would be doing if you were going to be breeding a doxie to a doxie or a poodle to a poodle. Make sure you are breeding the best, and doing it responsibly.


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## Jill (Dec 16, 2008)

We have six dogs, 5 purebreds and 1 mixed breed, who came from the shelter.

There are many designer dogs / mixed breeds I would easily see us having when the time comes... when we bought our collie, we had seriously considered a labrodoodle or golden doodle instead -- which would have cost as much as our collie -- but opted for a collie because I felt she was a surer bet for being good around "livestock".

With so many purebred dogs in the shelter or not in good homes, what difference is it if someone breeds desirable crosses? I care so much about AKC papers that I've never sent any in and that's for a few thousand dollars "worth" of AKC-able dogs over the years. I just want a dog that will be a family member and that can be a purebred or a nice cross.

My dream dog when it comes time to have another big dog would be a collie x german shepherd. I'd be happy to pay the same $$$$ I did for a purebred collie. I see nothing wrong with it. When it comes to our little dogs, though, I think they will always be shih tzu's.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 16, 2008)

Well heck, every breed out there is a "Designer Dog!"



They all started out by breeding one dog to another to produce a line with certain traits and I don't see this as being much different. I've always thought of a mutt as a Heinz 57 sort of thing where you have all sorts of unknowns mixed in (and I'd take most the mutts I've met over a purebred any time!



) An animal purposely bred from two papered parents is a "cross-breed" to me and not irresponsible at all. I could care less what the animal's papers are; I don't show dogs. I care if the dog itself is sound, healthy, cute, and has a good temperment.



RockRiverTiff said:


> Well mixed breeds/hybrids/mutts (whatever you want to call them) do in my opinion have a purpose. There are some very popular, proven crosses that combine the best of both worlds for people looking for something they can't find in a single breed.


Seems logical to me, coming from the world of half-Arabs. There's a very real market for cross-breds like that because a lot of people want the bone and temperment of a draft horse and the athleticism of a TB, the endurance and refinement of an Arab with the crest and courage of a Morgan or the action of a Saddlebred, etc. As long as it's done RESPONSIBLY, just like any good breeder, I think cross-breds are great.

The idea of puppy mills and pet store buyers makes me sick and most of them sell purebreds that are worse quality than any mutt. How is that better?

Leia


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## LowriseMinis (Dec 16, 2008)

I also care if the dog I have is healthy and sound, and if I'm paying someone for a dog, it better be. I have never known anyone breeding these 'designer mutts' that takes all the steps to ensure they're producing the best, though.

I personally have very high expectations of a dog breeder. They need to be breeding for a purpose, and the sole purpose of making more puppies just doesn't cut it in my book.

And again...there are plenty of crossbred dogs already sitting around in shelters, as well as poorly-bred purebred dogs. There's no reason to be breeding anything but the best.


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## mininik (Dec 16, 2008)

I'll chime in as someone who has experience breeding and owning crosses, and who has since done much research into exactly what it means to be a responsible breeder. When cross breeding, there is absolutely no way to guarantee that you will be getting "the best" of the breeds you are crossing. You cannot pick and choose the traits you want, such as low shedding, color, build, temperment, drive, etc. Without proper health testing, you won't know if you are pairing up two genetic disasters just waiting to happen. Without knowledge of conformation, you won't know if you are sentencing a litter of pups to suffer from the effects of poor conformation for years to come. No papers means that if the resulting crosses are bred again, unless they are crossed out to yet other breeds, the owner won't know if they are breeding back to a closely related dog. When it comes down to it, MOST people who breed puppies aren't doing so any where near responsibly, and while they are filling a demand for puppies of all kinds, that demand is fueled by the all too common view in our country of pets being something to buy on a whim and throw away when problems crop up. Why breed for more problems who will most likely end up in shelters just like the ones waiting there now?


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## topnotchminis (Dec 16, 2008)

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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 16, 2008)

Jill said:


> My dream dog when it comes time to have another big dog would be a collie x german shepherd. I'd be happy to pay the same $$$$ I did for a purebred collie. I see nothing wrong with it. When it comes to our little dogs, though, I think they will always be shih tzu's.


I've seen what I would guess would be collie/shepherd crosses plenty of times in local shelters, so you should have lots of fur-kids to choose from!


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## picasso (Dec 16, 2008)

I have a "designer dog" and love every part of her. She is exactly what I was wanting when I bought her. She is in my avatar. That being said we also have 3 other dogs that were rescues. So I guess there are places for both kinds. We love them all equally.


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## lilmiraclesfarm (Dec 16, 2008)

Oh I agree with you completely. I honestly don't like seeing dogs being bred for just the fun of it. I especially hate seeing mix bred dogs being bred for the fun of it or to make money. I pretty much just keep my mouth shut as its not going to make a difference and not worth insulting anyone. So when I come across a post, I look and keep going. But yup it deffinently urks me and to be honest horse people I believe are by far the worst. I have met more people who breed mutts in the horse industry than anywhere. Don't get me wrong, I love dogs, and I love mutts. I just don't support adding more when there are so many still in need of a home.


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## topnotchminis (Dec 16, 2008)

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## lilmiraclesfarm (Dec 16, 2008)

topnotchminis said:


> I forgot to add in my post in WI the humane society just a few months had a puppy mill that had about 1,200 designer dogs that were in very poor shape.
> The Link to the article


Ugh that makes me sick. It seriously disturbes me how people just sell dogs off and don't worry about where they are going. I was at the mall and I have pictures on my phone of a tractor trailer truck full of puppies in crates. Had to be 100 crates in there. They pulled out by hand two malteese pups and handed them to workers who held them by the scruf of their necks while someone else "inspected" them and their teeth. Only 4 puppies came out of that truck. Who knows which pet store was the next stop.

This isn't relevant to this post I was only responding to the above post. I'm not suggesting anyone of doing the same.


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## Riverdance (Dec 16, 2008)

How can anyone take care of 1,100 dogs at one facility plus breed and sell 3,000 puppies per year? The stench must be amazing. The dogs probably never have had human hands on them, must be over bred and in very poor condition. A bag of decent dog food costs about $30 to $50 per 40 lb bag, how could the kennel afford to feed the dogs properly, give proper vet care or anything else. And to be honest, I think it is VERY wrong for the humane society to buy out his breeding program, they should have just come in and closed him down!!! They are just perpetuating the reason why puppy mills survive. For the money.

If people would not buy from pet stores, plus not buy from breedres on line who do not have web sites, or if they do, show that they breed more than perhaps two breeds, then perhaps the world would get a grip on this puppy mill horror.

I breed only one breed and have done so for over 30 years. I have anywhere from 8 to 10 breeding dogs at a time, and they are only 20 to 30 lb dogs, but still they cost me over $150 to $200 per month to feed. There there are the shots, proper socializing of the puppies, the exercise that the puppies need, the love etc. I only have about 3 litters a year and I consider it a lot of work. My females are not bred till they are 2 and only every other season, if that, and only till they are about 7 or 8 years old. I also take back any dog that an owner can no longer keep.(it is in my contract with the buyer) I do not get many back, but I have had them returned as old as 8 years old. And yes, I have found new homes for them.

As for designer dogs, it is just another way for puppy mills, either large or small, to make money on the backs of animals. There is no way that you can know what you are getting in a designer dog. Those that are bred to poodles, one hopes that the dog they get will be a non shedding, non allergetic dog. But too often that is not the case and the poor puppy ends up in the humane society.

It takes many, many gerations of breeding to produce a dog that will consistantly be the same with the same characteristics of all the others of that breed. My breed, the Tibetan Terrier is over 2000 years old. It takes years and years for AKC to accept a new breed, for instance, the Jack Russel. For years that breed was very inconsistant in the way it looked. Some had very short legs, some had long legs. Until they were able to get a consistant look and temperment to them, they could not be registered with AKC.

It was over 35 years ago that breeders first started the concept of designer dogs with the cockerpoo. I heard way back then that it would take no time at all to make it a breed that AKC would accept. Well, to this day, they do not accept the breed. Why? Because it is still too inconsistant. Some have coats and personlaities like poodles, some like cockers. How is one to know what they are getting when they purchase one?

We have enough breeds today that have a hard time finding homes without trying to create new ones.


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## My-Lil-Pony (Dec 16, 2008)

I was quite surprised to learn how many horse breeders choose to breed dogs for the fast money they can make to support their horse habit.


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## gimp (Dec 16, 2008)

I don't even understand the term "designer" dog



. My daughter and I chuckled when we made up a name for her mutt puppy: pomerchishire terrier. Not so funny now that people are actually taking us seriously



. Anyone who thinks they can make money on a litter of pups scares me. Period. My first pem corgi was a rescue that came to me at 5 weeks. The people bred two puppy mill bitches every 6 months and had two letters at a time. The bitches whelped within days and took care of both litters, kindof. Walmart food, no shots or worming, "purebred"...sadly this person did it for the money. She actually made money on each pup because she didn't do anything with the bitches or the pups and she also had the dog who was more than happy to do his job. The pups lived in chicken wire pens and none of the dogs ever saw the inside of the house. Even if the pups are conviscated by Animal Control, they make more, and don't lose any sleep over it. I think there are probably a lot of mutt breeders who take better care of their pups. Without education, however, and with that added income, the marginal breeders will continue to flourish; be they making purebreds or mixed breeds. It is all pretty sad, and there will be no end to it.



Just my opinion; I will stick with the purebred dogs from reputable breeders. It hurts too much when they meet an early demise that could have been avoided.


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## topnotchminis (Dec 16, 2008)

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## dreammountainminis (Dec 16, 2008)

I have purebred dogs , and a couple (mutts ) I dont see a problem with breeding responsibly but that is what alot of ppl dont do ..I have chihuahuas mine are just like my kids .. I have two puppies for sale right now .my dogs are with my children and i about everywhere we go they go they are inside dogs , i have two females and two males 1 set longhaired one set smooth coat and i am starting into doxies i bought an akc red male and i am looking for a blk/tan smooth female although the dapples and piebalds have caught my eye ..I believe I am being responsible i dont breed evrytime one of my females is in season , all mine get regular vet checks wormings ect just like my horses ..

I also have a ex coon dog that i dont think he is purebred but was very abused when we got him we have had him for 7 yrs and he is the best dog ever...I also have a beagle that was abused and she is a very good dog ...those two our my outside watch dogs not for them to attack anyone ,they a by my horse fields and let me know is there is anything lurking around that shouldnt be....


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## Reble (Dec 16, 2008)

I am not going to get into this one, just buyer beware does not matter if it is a mutt or akc or ckc breeders.

I have been a dog breeder for 17 years.

Have heard and seen it all....


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## Cricket (Dec 16, 2008)

I wish that everyone who breeds any type of dog, purebred, mutts, or designer would volunteer at a dog shelter and realize how many dogs are out there looking for homes, that never find one. It is actually very sad. The same could actually be said for breeding minis except that there are no so called "shelters" where all the unwanted and unloved minis end up. Unfortunately people all have really "good" reasons for breeding dogs, cats or horses, and never seem to think that they are adding to the problem. I know this discussion has come up before and doesn't really get anywhere but it is the way that I see it.


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## Minimor (Dec 17, 2008)

Well, I'll tell you this--I'll give more money for a cross bred dog than I will most purebreds. We've almost always had mutts--if not mixed breeds then "mutt-bred" purebreds....purebred but not registered--technically mutts, because who can say for sure what the breeding behind them is? And they've been the best dogs--no health problems, no issues with poor temperament...no high price tag, no questionnaire to complete before I'm allowed to buy--just a dog that I like. And no, I probably won't go to a shelter for such a dog, unless they happen to have a puppy--because I prefer to get puppies that can grow up in my home and learn to live within the rules from the start. I could be lucky and get an older dog that works out--actually our Lucy is an example of that--we got her from the pound as a mature dog nearly 2 years ago--she had some difficulties in settling in but she's become quite devoted and very protective--truly "our" dog...but in a lot of cases we could do a lot worse and get a dog that simply won't learn to live peacefully with cats. Puppies are easier.

Besides, I've seen enough ugly-as-sin purebred dogs that are supposed to be of good breeding and that come from reputable breeders. If those are good examples of their breed then I have to say I don't have a lot of use for some of your reputable breeders that are supposedly breeding for the betterment of the breed. Sorry, but IMO it takes more than registration papers, a high price tag and a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.


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## hunterridgefarm (Dec 17, 2008)

i will give my 2 cents

when i was little all we had was MUTTS and they made the best dogs. my father did not worry about us with the dogs that we had. with that said all dogs can turn on you. not just pitt bull dogs. my aunt and my bother raise pitts to hunt with and let them have a bad one they are put down.

as to the designer dogs it is stupid why put a label on a mutt.

if it was my dogs which i have the cattle dogs and starting up a kennel the first of jan. i will not mess up the breed by breeding a bitch to a non-reg or a mutt dog. to much hard work has went into to it.

i am getting a bitch that will be bred to the top acd in may. i only plan on doing one breeding a year. and a pet will be sold on a Spay or Neuter contact. i will not have my blood line or the other people blood lines mess up either. and yes a show dog will be higher and sold on a contact where the pup has to be shown.

please dont bred to be breeding. you need to have your dog vet checked to make sure there is no faults with your dog.

diane


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## uwharrie (Dec 17, 2008)

Well any reputable breeder will use more than registration papers, high price tags and questionaires.

Reputable breeders have..


Years of experience
Conformation or performance titles ( how else can you say your dogs are "quality")
HEALTH TESTING ( and I am not saying just go to your local vet and say "they are vaccinated and worm free" I am saying doing testing for genetic diseases from Board certified specialist or DNA testing if available.
NOT breeding fluffy to muffy just because you happen to have both of them in your back yard and they both happen to be the same breed.
Member of their breed club ( or all breed club or performance club)
Offer health guarantees ( including genetic diseases)and so on


No reputable breeder will willingly breed crosses. And for the most part their puppies are much CHEAPER than the commercial breeders/ pet stores, ect.



Minimor said:


> Besides, I've seen enough ugly-as-sin purebred dogs that are supposed to be of good breeding and that come from reputable breeders. If those are good examples of their breed then I have to say I don't have a lot of use for some of your reputable breeders that are supposedly breeding for the betterment of the breed. Sorry, but IMO it takes more than registration papers, a high price tag and a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.


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## lilmiraclesfarm (Dec 17, 2008)

I just want to mention I see some posts stateing breeders have high price tags. I don't know about your areas but to buy a dog in a petstore is almost double to buy one from a breeder. Not to mention with a breeder your at least guranteed some sort of health gurantee. I bought my min pin a few years ago from a breeder in Arizona. I'm from Connecticut. She still cost me less to buy her and the plain ticket to get her here than if I went to the petstore 15 minutes away.


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## Jill (Dec 17, 2008)

For whatever it is worth, we recently lost our shih tzu golden child, Winston. He was only 10yo. He had health issues including kidney / bladder stones (two surgeries for this), a heart murmur, and tooth problems. The vet thinks he had a liver tumor which ruptured and caused him to pass away fairly suddenly. I am certain he came from a puppy mill. We went to a house in a town near us responding to an ad in the paper and when we got there, they asked what kind of puppy did we want to see (not a good sign). They had many breeds and were showing them to people in the garage. But, we'd come for a puppy and we could not resist Winston. For all his health problems, he was truly The One. Wouldn't trade out 10 years with him for anything.

However, due to his issues, I estimate we spent an additional $10k on him over his life to address, as best we could, his health issues. We got him at 6wks old in Stafford, VA. He was born in Oklahoma... so I think there's only about 1 way a very young puppy travels that far (tractor trailer truck from a puppy mill).

Now we have Watson and he is very healthy and also a shih tzu. He came from a great lady who is also a vet, and a member here, which is an extra comfort to us. There are responsible and carrying breeders out there, and some of them breed purebreds and some of them breed desireable crosses.


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## Sonya (Dec 17, 2008)

I guess as long as there is a market there will be designer dogs. I don't necessarily see it as any *more* of a problem then purebred breeding...there are purebred breeders out there who shouldn't be breeding dogs either. There are just as many purebred dogs in shelters as there are "mutts". I don't think that designer dog breeders are contributing to the problem anymore than any other breeder. There are some cross breeders on this forum and to say they are "irresponsible" breeders just because the dog can't be papered is not fair IMO. Not everyone cares if their dog can be registered or not.


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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 17, 2008)

Minimor said:


> . . . a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.


Do you actually take issue with a breeder or a rescue asking lots of questions before placing a dog in a home??


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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 17, 2008)

uwharrie said:


> Well any reputable breeder will use more than registration papers, high price tags and questionaires.
> 
> Reputable breeders have..
> 
> ...


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## topnotchminis (Dec 17, 2008)

[..


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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 17, 2008)

topnotchminis said:


> Minimor said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I'll tell you this--I'll give more money for a cross bred dog than I will most purebreds. We've almost always had mutts--if not mixed breeds then "mutt-bred" purebreds....purebred but not registered--technically mutts, because who can say for sure what the breeding behind them is? And they've been the best dogs--no health problems, no issues with poor temperament...no high price tag, no questionnaire to complete before I'm allowed to buy--just a dog that I like. And no, I probably won't go to a shelter for such a dog, unless they happen to have a puppy--because I prefer to get puppies that can grow up in my home and learn to live within the rules from the start. I could be lucky and get an older dog that works out--actually our Lucy is an example of that--we got her from the pound as a mature dog nearly 2 years ago--she had some difficulties in settling in but she's become quite devoted and very protective--truly "our" dog...but in a lot of cases we could do a lot worse and get a dog that simply won't learn to live peacefully with cats. Puppies are easier.
> ...


I volunteer (would be happy to work there but we don't have funds for staff!) for a shelter, too, and we also have plenty of puppies, mostly the larger mixed breeds. Our most recent litter was found along the side of the road on a freezing night in a box.


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## anoki (Dec 17, 2008)

I knew this was going to be a hot topic!!



But I haven't had a chance to read everything posted until now.

There has been a lot of good points brought up...but I would like to make a few comments on some of the things that have been posted. I have owned mutts in the past, and I currently breed AKC & CKC (Canadian Kennel Club) registered dogs. Cardigan corgis are believed to be at least 3,000 years old (Pembrokes are quite a bit 'newer' than that) Because I show, papers are HUGE for me. What I don't get is people who think papers on a dog are ridiculous, yet expect them on a mini, for example. That's fine if you don't want to register them when you are keeping them for a pet, I have no issue with that...not every purebred dog is worth being in a breeding program, but they still hold those qualities that make them that breed. I have 2 girls here that may not ever be bred, but they have some REALLY good things going for them. I'm not saying everyone should buy a purebred dog, not every dog (purebred of mixed) is for everyone. Corgis are definitely NOT for every person or lifestyle. The mutts that I've had, had FAR more health issues than my corgis have had....genetic? I don't know, I don't have any papers from the mutts to know if the 'issues' stemmed from anything specific. The one good thing about having papers, you can track down WHERE some of these genetic issues are stemming from!!!!!!! Just the same as horses....



> That said, I too am scratching my head at why the pet stores are suddenly offering so many non-papered puppies. As if the puppy mills weren't bad enough, now we're intentionally creating dogs with no sustainable value? It's crazy!





> The idea of puppy mills and pet store buyers makes me sick and most of them sell purebreds that are worse quality than any mutt. How is that better?


Are you kidding? Puppy mills have jumped ALL over the whole designer dog thing! Heck I would almost guarantee they started it! And I don't know many pet stores that sell PUREBRED dogs anymore.....WHY? Because 'responsible breeders' DON'T SELL TO PET STORES!



My-Lil-Pony said:


> I was quite surprised to learn how many horse breeders choose to breed dogs for the fast money they can make to support their horse habit.


I'm sure (at least I hope) that was said tongue in cheek, because if anyone breeds dogs (or horses for that matter) hoping to make a quick buck....they have rocks in their heads!



Riverdance said:


> As for designer dogs, it is just another way for puppy mills, either large or small, to make money on the backs of animals. There is no way that you can know what you are getting in a designer dog. Those that are bred to poodles, one hopes that the dog they get will be a non shedding, non allergetic dog. But too often that is not the case and the poor puppy ends up in the humane society.
> It takes many, many gerations of breeding to produce a dog that will consistantly be the same with the same characteristics of all the others of that breed. My breed, the Tibetan Terrier is over 2000 years old. It takes years and years for AKC to accept a new breed, for instance, the Jack Russel. For years that breed was very inconsistant in the way it looked. Some had very short legs, some had long legs. Until they were able to get a consistant look and temperment to them, they could not be registered with AKC.
> 
> It was over 35 years ago that breeders first started the concept of designer dogs with the cockerpoo. I heard way back then that it would take no time at all to make it a breed that AKC would accept. Well, to this day, they do not accept the breed. Why? Because it is still too inconsistant. Some have coats and personlaities like poodles, some like cockers. How is one to know what they are getting when they purchase one?


Well said....

I take HUGE exception when people say that purebred dogs are just WAY too much money. Well 'designer dogs' around here are selling for double what I sold my purebred dogs for....who's out for the quick bucks there????? All those people have put into the pups are the cost of the parents and the cost of feeding.

I take HUGE exception to certain breeders of 'designer dogs' selling them to buyers telling them that they will be able to register them that they are on the doorstep to being recognized into the Kennel Club, or creating fictitious registries and handing the new owners the dogs 'papers'...and believe me it is happening!

Riverdance is correct when saying about dogs not being accepted into registries until there is consistency to the look (horses aren't much different, are they???). One of the doodle crosses (sorry I can't keep the Labradoodles and Goldendoodles straight in my mind), has no consistency to their look at all, have serious skin & soundness issues, and temperament issues to boot.

I'm not saying mutts and designer dogs are all horrible, I've met some really neat crosses that I wouldn't mind owning (and I've owned a St Bernard/Black Lab cross that I would buy again in a heart beat....but we didn't pay more than $25 for her!!! I know that was a few years ago, but no way would I pay more than $150 for a mixed breed dog....sorry)

It is interesting to see that the term 'back yard breeder' has almost disappeared, and now it is all about 'responsible breeders'. We had an interesting discussing on another list about this....pretty much every person has a different opinion on what a 'responsible breeder' is.

I'm not bashing what people have said on here, or what people think and by NO MEANS am I an expert on any of this....I'm just offering my opinions on things....it is definitely Buyer Beware and do your homework before buying ANYTHING...dogs, horses, whatever!

~kathryn


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## topnotchminis (Dec 17, 2008)

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## My-Lil-Pony (Dec 17, 2008)

anoki said:


> My-Lil-Pony said:
> 
> 
> > I was quite surprised to learn how many horse breeders choose to breed dogs for the fast money they can make to support their horse habit.
> ...


No I was serious. I know many who breed dogs papered but not show dogs and make $2500.00 - $3500.00 a litter. A few litters at a time that adds up to pretty decent money. I am not saying it is good or bad just what I have noticed with many horse breeders and even more often with breeders of Miniature Horses.


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## tagalong (Dec 17, 2008)

> Sorry, but IMO it takes more than registration papers, a high price tag and a 20 page questionnaire to make a dog worth having or a breeder worth buying from.


Any breeder who did NOT have a questionnaire... did NOT interview me... did NOT seek to match up a puppy with me for temperament and future activities... and thus did not demonstrate that they were dedicated to their breed and had concerns for the future of every puppy they produced - would NOT have my business. I guess I do not understand why showing such concern for placing their puppies in the best home possible is seen as a bad thing.

Any breeder who did not have a Right of First Refusal on the contract - as in, they wish that dog to return to them in the event that it needs a new home - at any point in the life of that dog - is not worth dealing with. A breeder like that - CARES. _They take responsibility for that life they created - forever. _

As opposed to those crossing backyard Lab to the other Lab down the block just to make purebred puppies and a bit of $$$.

As opposed to those crossing low-quality Lab to pet-quality Standard Poodle to jump on the Labradoodle Designer Dog bandwagon - and often charging more for those puppies than a respected Lab or Poodle breeder would be asking for their puppies - with known bloodlines showing both conformation and performance titles. Now there are even Toy and Miniature Labradoodles available... which seems very far removed from the Lab part of any breeding.

Sometimes all it takes is a cute name for a "purebred"/designer dog - and $$$$ results.

The current rage around here is Puggles. Why? Why would pugs and beagles be considered a good cross? They were bred for entirely different purposes... and have their individual personality quirks and endearing temperaments - but no matter. Puggles seem to be getting churned out in alarming qualities... with little concern for anything beyond quantity.

The guy down the road has a Schnoodle that he walks along the road every afternoon... I thought it was a pet-quality and obviously loved Soft-Coated Wheaten Terrier. I stopped to compliment him on his well-behaved pup - who always returns to his owner and does a flying finish to heel when a vehicle approaches on our narrow road. Not a Wheaten, he said proudly - he did not even know what that was - but a Schnoodle from the Top Schnoodle Breeder in North America. The breeder had told him that they had had many generations of champions at Westminster. He said that he had to pay $$$$$$$$$$$ for this one - as it was the pick of the litter and was going to be a top show dog.

Uh huh. Mmmmmmkay.





I said the pup was very sweet and smart, but there had never been generations of Schnoodle champions at Westminster. Or anywhere else. And I am sure he paid more for that pup than he would have for a Wheaten puppy from a dedicated breeder near here who has bred and shown and trialed Wheatens for over 40 years.

And then as *Jill* found out - there are the puppy mills (and those who supply them) who churn out "purebreds" of any breed... again, with no concern about health issues or quality... but look - it has AKC papers and is thus a fancy "purebred"!!

When so many dogs are euthanized every year - I guess I cannot understand the need to create more "breeds" ...

Maybe that puggle mill person out there would have a different opinion if they had spent time - as I have - holding the dogs at the shelter for their final shot... and cradling them as they went limp and slipped away. All sizes, all shapes... all unwanted.

And both my dogs (currently a Border terrier and a Smooth Fox) have breeders who will take them back on a moment's notice should something catastrophic happen... who still stay in touch with me and ask about them.

Breeders who believe in quality as opposed to quantity. Breeders who plan every litter very carefully - and may not even have one every year (or even every two or three years) .... breeders who genuinely care about the breed.

And yes - I have had mutts as well. But they were mutts - not given a fancy designer name or a big price tag to go with it. Just smart, funny dogs without pretensions.

All the above is JMO - YMMV.


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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 17, 2008)

anoki said:


> Are you kidding? Puppy mills have jumped ALL over the whole designer dog thing! Heck I would almost guarantee they started it! And I don't know many pet stores that sell PUREBRED dogs anymore.....WHY? Because 'responsible breeders' DON'T SELL TO PET STORES!
> [~kathryn



Kathryn, from what I've "seen" of you on here, I definitely count you amongst the "good guys" - but around here, pet stores still offer primarily purebreds, though they do have their share of the new mixes. You are right, responsible breeders don't sell to pet stores - but there are way more irresponsible breeders out there, including the millers that sell to pet stores.


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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 17, 2008)

My-Lil-Pony said:


> anoki said:
> 
> 
> > My-Lil-Pony said:
> ...


I'd have to agree this does happen - a LOT. It's not hard to make a LOT of money off a litter when you already have the male/female, do zero testing, give minimal (if any) vet care, and sell them for top dollar to anyone who will take them. Not hard at all!


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## LowriseMinis (Dec 17, 2008)

And I should add I have what I believe is a designer dog, a "Dorgi", a Dachshund/Corgi cross that has been in part popularized by the Queen of England herself.

I found him in the undefunded kill shelter the next county over at four months old with his littermates, all scared out of their minds because they had been left in someone's backyard to go feral. It took a week before he'd leave his crate on his own, about a month for him to play with toys and start moving around the house. A year and a half later he's almost a normal dog! Now he's obviously poorly (and maybe not even intentionally) bred, I predict a lot of leg and back problems in his future. IMO, crossing two short legged/long backed breeds is just a terrible idea, but I love my little mutt.

Also, I got my designer dog for $95.

Shortly after I got him:






And this past year at the dog park.






Adorable though he is...he's not a well formed dog. It pains me to think of anyone out there cranking out Marlowes to make a buck, or ANY dog, mutt or purebred, for the sole purpose of making money. If you're breeding right, you're lucky to break even, and I think that applies to most animals.


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## tinypony (Dec 17, 2008)

I think regardless of animal type, person, whatever, it is all a question of "right" versus "responsibility". Some people think they have the "right" to breed whatever, or the "right" to have as many children as they want, and others see it as our responisibility to think beyond our own wants and desires. For now we all have rights, but if we keep abusing them, we will find ourselves with nothing, or our children will in the future. I see it as selfish versus caring. Our living space in the world is overpopulated, not just by people, so at some point it is time to quit worrying about "me, myself, and I" and start caring about "we".

....and kudos to those of you who volunteer not only your time to the shelters, but your emotions. It is a horrible feeling to watch as the lights go out, I've done it way too much myself. Keep it up, you are making a difference.


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## Boinky (Dec 17, 2008)

I think in many ways breeding any sort of animal is perhaps a selfish whim of humanity. I breed australian Shepherds occationally. To me a puppymill can be a good or bad place ....i've seen very well set up and maintained puppy mills where the animals were well cared for but many litters were pumped out all the time (sorry still a puppymill). I dont' nessarily agree with that but at least the animals are fed and clean and cared for. Then there are puppymills who don't care for their animals. PUt them in small gross smelly cages and pump litter after litter with no reguard to care.

Anyone that breeds dogs as a business would know if you do it RIGHT it's not a huge money earning venture. To do it RIGHT in MY opinion means that you do the normal health clearances on these animals (hip, eye, elbow, heart, or what have you for your breeds) and you stand behind your dogs. Every puppy i place i tell them i'll take them back for ANY reason at ANY time. I may not always be able to afford to BUY them nback but they have a place here and i'll help find them a new home. All my breeding dogs have had hip and eye certs which neither are cheap. Feeding breeding stock is not cheap and raising puppies if done right is NOT cheap. One year i sat down and broke it down form a business perspective (my dogs are more pets/hobbies and i only breed for what i want and when i want a puppy myself). I think I figured i was about $5K in the hole after my first litter if you factored in the cost of the parents and all the stuff surrounding them to own and keep them (again this is from a purely business perspective). I think i figured it would take me several litters to break even IF i didn't spend another cent on the litters or my breeding stock inbetween (which we all know is not possible).

I COULD see how you might make tons of money if you were one of the aformention puppymills that do nothing for their dogs. They do not worm them, give them shots, veterinary, cheapest quality food, care ect ect ect. you just pump out litter after litter...if the bitch dies..oh well keep on going... pick up dogs cheap as breeding stock ect. i can theoretically see how you could make a TON of money that way...but i can't see how you'd make much money if you bred as a "responsible" breeder that does the health certs, feeds excellent/good feeds. those are a huge part of expenses.

I dont' agree with "designer breeds" but i wouldn't have nearly as much of a problem with them IF they would do health clearances and try to selectively breed quality dogs of each breed (ie. goldens that do not have allergys and skin issues, hip displasia, ect). I think there are far too many out there that are from very low quality lines that are a genetic time bomb waiting to happen.


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## uwharrie (Dec 17, 2008)

Its the responsible breeders who do not make money with breeding dogs. I am lucky if I break even on a litter. Sure I could make money if I did not health test, used only my own males ( no stud fees) did not show, bred the females early and often, and had many litters a year, placed puppies at 6 weeks or less ( cause it does cost to keep them till 10-12 weeks) and not care who I sold puppies to. Not to mention take dogs back that owners can no longer keep ( thank goodness that does not happen often but then I am only breeding one litter a year).

There are quite a few horse people out there that DO breed dogs strictly to make money, they may claim otherwise but the numbers tell a different story.

Some folks use the "show folks are snobs" excuse, but you know what? I DONT have a problem with someone producing healthy, correct, well tempered, well socialized dogs for the pet market. Yes I show, and YES I breed to produce dogs to show but guess what? Over 1/2 of the dogs I produce go into pet homes, Show homes are not the end all to be all. I rarely sell show pups anymore and would rather keep what I want to show and sell the rest into great pet homes no matter how nice the pup may be.

No I was serious. I know many who breed dogs papered but not show dogs and make $2500.00 - $3500.00 a litter. A few litters at a time that adds up to pretty decent money. I am not saying it is good or bad just what I have noticed with many horse breeders and even more often with breeders of Miniature Horses.


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## lyn_j (Dec 17, 2008)

Im with uwharrie, I breed for show and .there is ALWAYS a puppy or two that go to pet homes, even some show quality if they are the right people. I have turned people away after meeting them also.... thats not going to make money but my dogs come first. I have 5 bitches and 3 dogs but I still will use an outside stud dog if he offers the bitch something better. I have bitches that are 5 years old that have only had 1 or two litters. I have spent WAY more than they have made me for example. When I bought Hunter two years ago, she was an adult bitch. I paid 1000 dollars for her and then I paid another 750 for a stud fee for a litter of 3 puppies, one I kept and two I sold for 600 each, She had vet visits that totaled over 500. Didnt make any money there. The daughter of hers that I kept to show, accidentally got bred to another champion while she was with the handler and I was in Germany. She had 5 puppies by Section and had to be spayed at that time her uterus ruptured.... no more showing, no more breeding and a 2000 vet bill for Prissy. Did I lose money, you betcha.

There was 1 bitch puppy in that litter that I kept who is a BOV winning puppy. Gracie was a great mistake but it could have all been for naught. So , all in all Gracie has a value of 4100.00 . that is what she cost me not counting her show fees.

It also took me 3 years for the quality show Dachshund breeders to accept me and agree to sell me show quality dogs. THEY were responsible breeders and now I owe them the same respect by doing likewise and being chosey where my puppies go and , I am responsible for EVERY ONE of them till the day they die because I brought them into this world Thats why my contracts say that they come back to me in the event they cant be kept.

Genetic testing for specific breed issues is also not cheap. IT takes lots of testing and repeated progeny testing to make sure they arent going to occur in your lines. Dachshunds have PRI and Disc Degeneration issues. WE test for those. I buy 40 pounds of natural food weekly, monthly interceptor is 60 dollars for 10 dogs. My dogs will never pay for me to play with my horses. And, they are a full time job! We dont go away together because we dont have a good house/dog sitter now that my son is in PAraguay.

All things to consider. No designer dogs here...... too much to keep up with a known standard!

Lyn


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