# Who attended the Greencastle Sale



## zoey829 (Oct 31, 2009)

Now that the sale is over can anyone share the prices?? I would also like to know what you bought!!!


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## Jean_B (Nov 1, 2009)

I sincerely hope that no one posts the prices....making it very clear that this is only my opinion.....but in my opinion it is posting these prices that hurts the industry as a whole.

An auction is a SALE...it's where buyers go to get the best deal possible and should in no way be a reflection of the industry as a whole. Yes, some awesome horses have come out of these consignment sales, but posting prices here...again...IN MY OPINION is a disservice to the entire industry. Consignment sales serve a very real need, but as far as I'm concerned, the prices they bring are NO ONE'S business except for the seller, the buyer, and of course the sales management.

OK folks - go ahead and flame away! I've got my big girl panties on and can deal with it.


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## disneyhorse (Nov 1, 2009)

I am disappointed at the recent uproar over posted auction/sale prices... but I personally don't see the harm in it.

Although yes, the market is definitely DOWN... hopefully it will entice more people to go to the auctions/sales in the future to get these "diamonds in the rough." At such sales, prices are driven by the number of people bidding. Few people means less competition for bids raising prices.

Andrea


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## Minimor (Nov 1, 2009)

I fail to see how it helps the market any to hide low prices from sales. Pretending that the market is great and prices are staying up there doesn't make it so. Truth is, sales where horses sell for low prices DO affect the market, regardless if prices get posted or not. If they don't get posted they get e-mailed around anyway, so it makes little difference if they do or don't get posted here.

Nobody post sale prices so that everyone can pretend that the market is great and they can feel justified in continuing to mass produce foals. Good plan.


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## Flaxenacres (Nov 1, 2009)

Leah, I tried to send you a message but your box is full. Lorie


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## tagalong (Nov 1, 2009)

> I am disappointed at the recent uproar over posted auction/sale prices... but I personally don't see the harm in it.


That's because there is no harm in it - IMO. Does it hurt the industry? No. What hurts is overbreeding and lots of low-caliber minis flooding the auction marts. A few months ago I went to a local horse sale and there was a pen of 10 minis who ended up selling for about $50 each. The poor things were not much to look at and whoever bred them just decided to dump them - I hope they found loving homes.

As I said in the other thread - making the prices a super big secret only suggests that you are trying to hide something. The prices get around anyway. Quality horses can be bought for very little - if you know what you are looking at. Similarly, low quality horses may sell for more than they should (especially if they are an interesting or loud colour). And that applies to all breeds. But pretending that low prices do not happen fools no one. And if people think they can buy a decent horse for not too much money - that is more incentive to buy, isn't it?



> the prices they bring are NO ONE'S business except for the seller, the buyer, and of course the sales management.


...and everyone else at the sale/auction taking notes (as many of us do) and everyone in the parking lot coming and going and everyone all those people talked to and those people talking to others.... and everyone reading the website of that sale if prices are posted or watching it online if that is done...






A private sale is just that - private. But IMO trying to suppress or hide the prices from a public sale is an exercise in futility...



> Although yes, the market is definitely DOWN... hopefully it will entice more people to go to the auctions/sales in the future to get these "diamonds in the rough." At such sales, prices are driven by the number of people bidding. Few people means less competition for bids raising prices.


Exactly right.


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## Mona (Nov 1, 2009)

I agree with those who want the prices posted. We have always done so in the past, when many of us could only dream of being fortunate enough to have the money to pay that much for a horse, and now just because prices are down, it is suddenly becoming a sin or a disservice to the industry to post them. I strongly disagree and feel we SHOULD keep posting results, as we at least we can then can see the industry's strong and weak times. Just like a marriage with a strong foundation..."for better or for worse".


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## zoey829 (Nov 1, 2009)

I just like to see is sale price are going up, what quality and I LOVE it when a good deal can be had! I did miss seeing everyone but I ususally dont buy at the sale but I love the jokes, good times and tack!


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## bevann (Nov 1, 2009)

I agree that I would like to see sale prices posted.Years ago when we had Standardbreds some of the various sales even posted prices in the industry magazines, Hoof Beats was one of those.Word gets around even if not on the internet.IMO people should cut WAAAY back on breeding unless planning to keep something for yourself or have a buyer.Chances Mini Horse Rescue has lots of pets and most horse rescues are overloaded and it doesn't look to get better any time soon.too many people have no thought for the well being of the animal and just ump them anywhere they can.


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## eagles ring farm (Nov 1, 2009)

We were there but had sold the Jerald cart we were going to take so decided to go look anyway since we already had hotel reservations so just stayed for the beginning of the tack and had to hit the road to pick up our yearling mare at the trainers in MD. Visited with friends there and left

So can't tell you anything about prices, but there were some nice horses. And I thought a big crowd

although have never been to Greencastle before maybe it was just the normal size crowd.


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## Littleum (Nov 1, 2009)

Jean_B said:


> the prices they bring are NO ONE'S business except for the seller, the buyer, and of course the sales management.


Aren't auction results a matter of public record in many states? As in there is no expectation of privacy?

(I may be wrong. I've always been under the impression that to prevent bidding shenningans, transparency is required)


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## ruffian (Nov 1, 2009)

I don't think posting prices is wrong IMO. They are what they are. Some are going to be high, some are going to be low.

I believe the Thoroughbred and/or standardbred horses prices are put on their records every time they are sold.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Nov 1, 2009)

I have to agree with the group that doesn't think they should be posted. My reasons are that so many people read this forum. Several of them are just thinking of buying a mini but surely will someday. But by reading low prices they develop a mindset that that is all a mini is worth. They really *don't understand* the rest of the story such as quality, breeders overstock, etc...., just that is how much money that it takes to buy a mare, filly, colt or stallion. Anyway I feel it is demeaning to the breed to keep posting these prices as it does create a mindset for future buyers. Also, why at this point does it really matter anyway? If you were there and got a great deal, wonderful, but how will it change any of our lives to know what they sold for? Oh well, gonna get flamed for sure, but don't really care as it is only my personal opinion. I also know this is going down the road of "overbreeding" again. Is this a problem? *certainly*.....Are we ever gonna stop it? *never*, but we consistently beat that dead horse.


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## tagalong (Nov 1, 2009)

> I believe the Thoroughbred and/or standardbred horses prices are put on their records every time they are sold.


Yes, they are.

Thus we know that Seattle Slew sold for the bargain price of $17,500.

And yet The Green Monkey sold for $16,000,000 as a yearling and was a complete failure on the track.

And reproductive histories are public for all mares sold. In a TB or STB sales catalogue it will tell you that Mare #156 was barren this year and sells open. In 2008 she slipped a filly by Stallion XXX. 2007 - filly by Stallion X. 2006 - barren. 2005 - slipped colt by Stallion XX. It will also be noted how many foals went on to race and if they were successful in even the smallest way.

No secrets.

$16,000,000 for a TB... all the way down to TBs being dumped at the auction mart because they were not racing well... and maybe selling for $500. Or much less.



> Anyway I feel it is demeaning to the breed to keep posting these prices as it does create a mindset for future buyers.


How is it demeaning to the breed to post sale prices as every other breed does? There are always highs and lows as interest rises and falls in any breed... someone reading any prices posted on this forum is not going to draw any conclusion from them other than prices may vary wildy. And that... is true. And they may feel that they might get a quality horse for a bargain price - which may also be true. Thus they will want to attend The Mini Sale and spend money... and I guess I cannot see where that is a bad thing.

Anyone who is going to have a mindset worth worrying about likely already has one - reinforced by the sad minis going through the auction marts for $50 or less. Right next to the well broke QHs selling for only $250.





I guess I feel strongly about this as I have worked with a variety of breeds and disciplines for over 20 years - and in all that time I have never heard any suggestions or concerns that winning bids from an open/public sale/auction should be repressed/secret/censored... until now.

And I hope that LB does not make it a policy...


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## coopermini (Nov 1, 2009)

We were there again at the sale. crowd seemed a bit smaller than past years. Horse numbers were down. 130 plus 10 driving and some mini donkeys. We were there for the tack sale. Did get a "B" harness I needed and a cart for friends. Bought a bunch of stuff from Nick again. Prices were down on what we saw. Some of the better known breeders brought some nice minis but many of the buyers didn't seem to know a good pedigree and a good horse from a very mediocore one. Some people got some very good buys for sure.

Always nice to visit with some old freinds every year at the sale.


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Nov 1, 2009)

I'm still hoping to see the prices, and want for the people that don't breed for "quality" to see the prices and say "why should I bother"! I'm honestly hoping alot less horses will get bred when people see the prices.


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## Arion Mgmt (Nov 2, 2009)

I think posting prices from a public auction is something that should be done, for all horse breeds, after the fact.

I know I didnt say this clearly in the other thread but I do actually think all prices of public auctions are fair game. However......Unfortunately as was stated earlier in the case of race horse breeds, you are given ALL PERTINENT information to make an informed buy at those auctions, even a vet health exam with Xrays and repro exam is waiting in the records room to be viewed. Infact you know if it has ever been in another auction and the salling prices or no sale bids on the horse.

Our little miniature horse industry is FAR FROM that. This is a PRIME example as to why there are so many ways someone gets taken for a ride at miniature horse auctions. It is pathetic and disgraceful, infact it is technically fraud by the consignor unless the sale is a "meat sale", that is why all sales managers have sales terms and conditions.

What I DONT agree with is the use of the internet for watching and buying horses at these kinds of sales due to what I stated above. A vast majority of the viewers, buyers or potential new buyers and enthusiasts that would watch it from all over the world get the absolute wrong idea of real industry pricing and value and market trends. That is what is hurting the private sales even more than our tanking economy and dollar.

Also, SINCE there is no open book of information of a broodmare or stallion, ie fertility, reproductive status or produce show records, or true health of a horse ( if they have had a colic surgery or TWO for instance) you might as well go play the lottery with that money.

This is one of the reasons LKF started the Oktoberfest, we knew that a lower end sale CAN be worthwhile to all.....seller AND buyer IF done right and honest. No different than when LKF put on the Heritage sale, there was a silent auction section, (this was even separate from the gelding incentive section) where horses of various situations were available for what they were for........those willing to take a wonderful pet home.

Yes overstock goes to these sales we are talking about as well, but also there are the career horses, I am sure any of you that have watched these sales for more than one year have seen the large number of career sale horses.

Why in the world a sale manager #1 would continue to put the same horse or horses in a sale year after year, OR # 2 Continually accept career sale horses, we as buyers or consignors know EXACTLY why those horses have seen all the auction sites........there is something wrong with it, or someone is still actually thinking they can pinhook a profit off of it. Yet sometimes those horses get bought by you guessed it, inexperienced or even worse, overseas buyer that has not a clue what is going on in our industry here in the states and our lack of open records.

I have had NUMEROUS international clients of mine ask me why is the US still putting soo many of these sales on, even worse on the internet. They say it is starting to hurt THEIR private sales in THEIR country. Because now their new buyers can go online and get a $200 horse from the US and only spend $5000 or MORE to get it to their country, and save Thousands of dollars by not buying privately. Now how intelligent is that!?!?!?!? You cant fix stupidity.

Yet those same buyers then complain, (and I have had them complain to me that their horse they bought has something wrong with it or isnt good enough for their studbook and is worthless in their country). Well I tell them that was their choice and then they complain that WE (the auctions) should be more restrictive.

Anyways, the sales will continue to be online, and you will continue to see a vast majority of the owners in this breed private sales decline in number and price until the majority in the industry demands a change in something.

John Eberth


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## ropenride (Nov 2, 2009)

I believe that prices at public auctions should be posted. Does a low price indicate that that is all the horse is worth? NO!!!! ANYTHING (horse, car, silver flatware, furniture) IS ONLY WORTH WHAT THAT PERSON IS WILLING TO PAY THAT DAY!!!!!

I price my horses (big and mini) according to what I think they're worth....if the potential buyer doesn't agree with that then they either try to dicker or leave. There are other fish in the sea. If too many potential buyers leave, then I will probably rethink what I believe my horse to be worth, otherwise, here's the price.

As for auctions....if I'm BUYING and see horses I like at Auction A and Auction B but, having limited funds I can only potentially buy at one auction, I will attend the auction that had the lowest prices on good horses previously. Hhhhmmmmmm...and so does everyone else, so the prices go UP this year!



If I'm SELLING I will look at the auction company and their performance over time, NOT just the last sale, to get a feel for how their market generally runs.

It doesn't matter what you're buying or selling, economics will always prevail......the law of supply and demand.


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## bevann (Nov 2, 2009)

John I do so agree with your comments.Mini buyers especially Newbies are often likely to get burned at many auctions.It is so sad because many of them could become an asset to our breed instead they are many times turned off due to bad sale experiences.There are people who get lucky at auctions, but many more get badly burned.I love the comments about the CAREER SALE horses and the comments about stupidity.


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## Robin (Nov 2, 2009)

I will Second John's post!

For years and years I have kept auction catalogs from sales I have attended - as reference for my *own* behalf. People used to call me and I would read to them over the phone the prices for their records. I did not keep them to blast them all over the world or degrade someone's sale or horses for what they did or did not bring. I do believe they are public record- and I have never ever refused to tell someone what a horse brought at one of our sales when asked. The problem I have is that people see horses sell for $X price in a alist online and then decide for themselves that either the farm raises poor quality, that the horse must have been no good or that the industry is in the tank and not to invest. If I have had 1, I have had 50 overseas buyers ask me to lower prices on our good show stock because they have seen a "similar" horse at auction bring only $500 and they basically threated me that they are going to go buy some place else. I say- have at it. When you buy a horse - regardless of auction or private- you should ask for more than just the horse standing on 4 legs. When someone buys a horse from us (LKF)- auction or not- WE stand behind it. We give you the honest breakdown of the animal and if we sell it with guarantees- we are here to back them up. However- it is also common knowledge that unless other wise stated- a horse sells *AS IS *thru most auctions. That is what people don't put into those prices- no guarantees (unless otherwise stated), no records, no experience to help guide you or answer your questions. That is why basing an industry or market on auction prices is not a good gage for the industry. Unless you were there, unless you saw the horse, unless you spoke with the owner, you cannot fairly judge whether the market is down, someone got a great buy, the horse was crap or the sale management is to blame for not having the weather be nice enough, good enough free food and free taxi service!!!.

I used this analogy to someone the other day.... If I go into Walmart and see a toy my son wants at full price- do I degrade and devalue the "new" toy if I buy it 2 months later at clearance price? No! Does my son think any less of it- No! So why should a horse be considered worth less when the asking price was $4,000 and at a one day sale- it was bought for $400? Does it mean it is not the same horse? Does it mean they are over breeding? Is Walmart hurting the toy industry by having a one day clearance sale to make room to stock new items? No!

Another thought- people need to understand that almost all miniature auctions are consignor auctions- not personal farm auctions as the Sale of a Lifetime, the first Reece sale or the old NFC sale's once were. So to slam a particluar farm for hosting a sale or a particular person for managing a sale just shows ignorance- as is very typical here on LB and other forums when sale prices are listed. We as sale management do our very best to get the best horses for the best reserves, from the most reputable people we can to do business with. But even then, we are expecting professionalism on the other side and cannot be held accountable for them if they have misrepresented to us as well. What the horses bring is up to the buyers and bidders- not the consignors or sale management. With one exception- advertising to get the buyers actually there to bid.

Again- as John stated- until we #1 are a real breed and #2 want to promote and market as such and be equal to other long standing breeds, we should not try to compare our miniatures to them. It is not a fair comparison. There most certainly are ways that we should strive to be like them and would be easy for our industry to convert or absorb other practices, but if you have been in this inudstry long- you will find out our association/registry (AMHA in particular) is constantly trying to re-invent the wheel. In other words, there are some huge major issues in the miniauture industry and it isn't just "over breeding".

Let me ask a question that I am sure will fuel a few....... Since LKF sold a son of a World Grand Champion stallion that has World Champion show potential for $400., will that make those who are breeding $400 horses with no pedigree, that are not show quality, stop breeding? The answer is NO- #1- some people do not know horse conformation and quality and breed anyway, #2. Some people breed their pets for their own enjoyment , #3. Some people think $400 for an animal is a heck of a lot of money and are proud to be able to sell their product for that, #4- what right do we have to tell other's they shouldn't breed their horses? There is really no way to control the population of animals (unless the govt starts to tax us all on each one- sshhhh don't tell them)- however the registry's can control the population of the "registered" animals. But why would they limit it? They are in the business to make money and supply a service-right?

The miniature industry is coming to a place in time much like all older animal breeds. You have the pet/non registered level, you have the breeding stock level and you have the show level. We are no longer and "exotic breed". It is not uncommon for breeding stock to lower in value to pet stock when the economy is down. And because we do not have a "meat" level- we can not compare our market to many other animal breeds. We are more along the dog/cat comparisons. The "overstock" of miniatures is at this point now. It is definetly a buyers market if you are looking at getting started. I wish we had the pasture space to invest in some more broodmares- as I have seen several exceptional ones sell for less than their "true" market value should be.

Anyway- back to the topic- posting sale prices- if you wish them to be listed- I would prefer to see them be e-mailed out privately - to eliminate speculation, accusations, etc. The internet has been a wonderful gift, but at the same time a huge detriment. It is convienent but often not accurate. I had severla phone buyers see the Oktoberfest list and call in a apanic becuase the list showed they paid more for a horse than they agreed to- since they were not here to sign. I had to answer all their questions- verfiy their purchases, etc. This took hours and also caused headaches and stress for no good reason. I also saw horses that were listed as "sold" that did not sell. I think if the sale prices are posted- it should only come from the Sale management or from the purchasers of individual horses that want to share that information. Again- another way to eliminate incorrect data. What good is having the information if it is not correct?

Just my thoughts- Robin-LKF


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## Littleum (Nov 2, 2009)

I don't know if it's 100% a bad thing new people seeing horses selling for next to nothing at auctions.

Okay, before you flame me here, give me a second to get my thoughts out. 

We often also bemoan people who get into the breed thinking they'll breed and make money and resale and all that. Maybe they think they'll get a few horses, breed some cute foals, sell some of the cute foals and be able to make more cute foals.

So they come to this forum and see us sobbing over bad prices, and they see $200, $300, $400 for well-bred horses. $50 for everything else. Its a bloodbath from top to bottom. It's ugly.

Maybe (just maybe) there is a silver lining in all this?

1) Maybe they see that they're NOT going to get rich quick and don't open up Miniature Mill #908439203 (they go breed... emus or something)

2) Maybe they were on the fence and had heard all these rumors about how expensive nice minis are, and decide hey, I can get a nice mini for not so much... now is the time!!! (and presto, we have a new loyal Miniature lover, our industry grows, market base expands...)

Maybe I'm grasping but I'm trying to see the upside in all of this down. (Imagine that)

And yes, auctions do have an influence on private sales I'm sure, but private sales do have their own safety net. Auctions are "as is" situations. You take your chances. The markup you get with a private sale also (in theory) provides the safety net of guarantees and assurances. Auction prices come with an assumption of risk.

I'm not inclined to really worry over scaring away newbies who aren't savvy enough to realize that 1) the market is depressed and 2) auctions are a risk and the price reflects that risk. Does our breed (or really, any breed) need more unsavvy people who can't see the writing on the wall and the big picture? Maybe that's an ugly, elitist thing to say but I can't help but feel like the horse industry as a whole really just does not need more uninformed people right now. And if the low ball auction prices scare away would-be owners, honestly, maybe that's a good thing in the long run.

I really don't see how supressing (or making it difficult to obtain) auction result information is going to be helpful. It might actually give people the illusion that our industry is healthy when it is gasping for breath. And it's a very intimidating thing too if you're new and are trying to do research but have to message people for price data. Why should we make it more difficult for people interested in our breed to get information?


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## Arion Mgmt (Nov 2, 2009)

Sandy

I do see your thought process. But tell me when have you been at an auction and sat next to a newbie and told them stay away and dont get in it or heard someone else send away a newbie. They are told get in now while it is cheap!!! you can now REALLY MAKE SOME MONEY!!! Oh and BTW lot # such n such would be a heck of a starter mare for you!

John


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## Robin (Nov 2, 2009)

I do see your point as far as looking at the silver lining- but if only that was more evident and happened more often. I say it time and again and will continue to say it- majority of people in the miniatues are not livestock breeders, they have never owned a full size horse, cow, llama, pig before- mostly dogs, cats, guinea pigs etc-. That is the nice thing about a mini- anyone can handle them, but not everyone should.

We find lots of people get in and get out - 5 years is the average someone stays in the horse business. You all have seen many people come and go from the forum. It isn't that there is anything wrong with the horses or market- it is that we have attracted people who cannot "do the math", "manage livestock", or simply "loose interest." I guess the difference to me is not telling someone not to get into the minis because they do not have a good background of horses or livestock, but spending the time to help them learn and do it successfully.

I think the internet again has made bad information more accessible and good information harder to find. What happed to the good ole phone call, come to the farm, meet the people and horses you are investing your hard earned money with and for, and get the big picture before jumping in with both feet over a picture online and then having a bad experience. Again- it isn't about the sale prices- it is about people getting the wrong information. We aren't hiding the sale prices from people- again all anyone has to do is ask. We aren't being mis leading either- we are simply protecting the industry- putting our best foot forward- not showing our butts on the wide screen as to how many idiots there are in the breed, how crappy the horses can be and how low the prices are at a one day sale.

Let me ask this..... If you have a horse that just won World Grand Champion in one stall and a horse that was barely breeding quality , poor pedigree and unproven in the next- which one would you pay to advertise and promote? The poor one- because it is what it is and you want people to see it- or the World Champion? I would rather see people promote the big sales - because they do still occur- then flood the market with the auction prices and blow the low sales out of proportion as if it is a sign of the times. It's not that they don't exist, it is why draw attention to them as if that is all there is. They will always be there- bad horses/low sale prices, good horses/good sale prices, the high end auctions and the clearance/dispersal auctions.

Robin-LKF


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## Royal Crescent (Nov 2, 2009)

> I just like to see is sale price are going up, what quality and I LOVE it when a good deal can be had! I did miss seeing everyone but I ususally dont buy at the sale but I love the jokes, good times and tack!


I don't think auction prices should reflect what private sale prices are and if people want to talk about it, it is their choice. The funny thing is, everyone is arguing about it here :arg! , and no one has posted any news from the auction!




So who wants to get back to the the question asked?





Barb


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## Littleum (Nov 2, 2009)

Robin said:


> Let me ask this..... If you have a horse that just won World Grand Champion in one stall and a horse that was barely breeding quality , poor pedigree and unproven in the next- which one would you pay to advertise and promote? The poor one- because it is what it is and you want people to see it- or the World Champion? I would rather see people promote the big sales - because they do still occur- then flood the market with the auction prices and blow the low sales out of proportion as if it is a sign of the times. It's not that they don't exist, it is why draw attention to them as if that is all there is. They will always be there- bad horses/low sale prices, good horses/good sale prices, the high end auctions and the clearance/dispersal auctions.


The unfortunate thing about sales this year in general seems to be (big and little) the prices are bad. The high quality auctions have a handful of bright spots but prices are depressed all the way around. Maybe a new person wouldn't be able to put those prices into historical context and they're not quite as ugly, but from my desk here those results are just as grim as the results from low end auctions. The market seems to be all bad news these days.





I'm not saying not to educate people on the challenges of owning livestock (we all have to learn somewhere, sometime, somehow) But there are lots of people out there who are attracted and sustained by their belief they'll make money, or "cute foals always find a home" If these auction posts encourage folks to establish more realistic goals, I think maybe that's not such a bad thing.

I do appreciate that it really, really hurts breeders. It does take a chomp right out of values. Folks are going to be saying to themselves, "I'll just wait for such and such auction next year because I'll probably find the same quality for pennies on the dollar" So I can understand that breeders cringe when they see these prices and start making efforts to couch them in the proper context- and I think that's a good thing, because I think it's important for folks to understand market forces. I just don't think making the information "by request only" is the right fix. We can agree to disagree, because I can see the other side of the coin too.

As for the "let's hold our money until the auction season"... maybe that will encourage a rebound. Folks (maybe a good number of folks who otherwise would never have bothered attending) will turn out to sales trying to find a bargain, prices will crawl up due to increased competition. So okay, not so many great bargains, but the catalog was great and the atmosphere was great, so they come back anyway the next year. Prices remain stable... wash, rinse, repeat, recovery. Maybe I'm being overly optimistic.


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## ruffian (Nov 2, 2009)

IMO The Internet is Pandora's box. Once the lid came off, EVERYTHING good and bad came pouring out. And unfortunately there are people everywhere who can't wait to talk about bad news, such as low prices. So there is no way to stop public information - such as auction prices - from becoming public very quickly.

I myself like to see auction prices. I don't take it that those prices are the be all and end all. It is information offered that should be taken as it is, a quick note jotted on a sale catalog while the next horse is coming in, a number written that was gabled by the auctioneer's mike, and may or may not be accurate.

I can certainly attest that great quality horses go through auctions, both live and silent. I can also attest that I've seen junk horses - one that darn near bit me! - come through auctions.

So it's caveat emptor - enjoy auctions, buy if you want, have regrets that you didn't, or buyer's remorse, buy at a farm or off a website. But enjoy your horses, take good care of them, show if you want, drive if you want, but please, please don't attack those that make it possible for us to increase or decrease our herds at their effort and expense!!


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## Robin (Nov 2, 2009)

Well Said Ruffian!

Robin


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## Mona (Nov 2, 2009)

VERY well written Dana!!!
















ruffian said:


> IMO The Internet is Pandora's box. Once the lid came off, EVERYTHING good and bad came pouring out. And unfortunately there are people everywhere who can't wait to talk about bad news, such as low prices. So there is no way to stop public information - such as auction prices - from becoming public very quickly.
> I myself like to see auction prices. I don't take it that those prices are the be all and end all. It is information offered that should be taken as it is, a quick note jotted on a sale catalog while the next horse is coming in, a number written that was gabled by the auctioneer's mike, and may or may not be accurate.
> 
> I can certainly attest that great quality horses go through auctions, both live and silent. I can also attest that I've seen junk horses - one that darn near bit me! - come through auctions.
> ...


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## HGFarm (Nov 2, 2009)

Well, there are auctions and then there are auctions!!! I would never mention the local auctions here in the same sentence as the ones put on by LKF and other top sales. (Oh no, I just did!!) There is no comparision in my opinion and I would certainly not base the prices paid at the local one as the going rate, and expect to pay the same thing at the World Sale, LKF or any of the other higher quality auctions.

Different parts of the country seem to vary in prices too, along with what the economy is doing there.

I do not see any harm in stating the prices of the horses at the auctions, as I think it does reflect on the GENERAL economy (and we all know where that is right now, it doesnt have to be spelled out) and I think it also shows when the economy starts to pick up, etc...... too. It sort of lets everyone know where things are or where they are headed.

And I, for one, am fairly tired of hearing that the 'miniature market is glutted by poor breeders, etc...' story. So this tells me that NOBODY should be breeding horses of ANY breed at all- ALL the markets must be glutted, (full sized horses cannot even be GIVEN away here) unless you are going to treat them like cattle and eat them. Cars are not selling either, nor is real estate, based on the economy, so manufactoring vehicles and building things needs to come to a stop right now, as the market is apparently glutted there too. Flame away..........


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## minie812 (Nov 2, 2009)

ruffian said:


> IMO The Internet is Pandora's box. Once the lid came off, EVERYTHING good and bad came pouring out. And unfortunately there are people everywhere who can't wait to talk about bad news, such as low prices. So there is no way to stop public information - such as auction prices - from becoming public very quickly.
> I myself like to see auction prices. I don't take it that those prices are the be all and end all. It is information offered that should be taken as it is, a quick note jotted on a sale catalog while the next horse is coming in, a number written that was gabled by the auctioneer's mike, and may or may not be accurate.
> 
> I can certainly attest that great quality horses go through auctions, both live and silent. I can also attest that I've seen junk horses - one that darn near bit me! - come through auctions.
> ...


DITTO...


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## sharpllook (Nov 2, 2009)

Sorry JEAN........ I UNDERSTAND TOTALLY what you wanted to accomplish with your "do not post".

I believe it was NOT do not post but rather "Come on people buy better horses at a buyers market!"

We :modedit: complain if it is to hot to cold to cheap to high.

Spend what you can afford on the horse you want. As long as you are not stealing to do it, and as long as my kids have shoes........ WAY I HAVE NO KIDS.

Like South Dakota, horse prices are the same....... weed out the feeble and weak of heart.

Speaking of heart, I am truely sorry Jean! and yes, I have my big pants on too......... and yes they too fit tight.

I am Lonnie Sharping of SOS Miniatures, I host a mini horse consignment sale and believe I have attend a lot of different sales in the nation supporting the industry. I've been screwed by some of the best names in the business and I have been blessed by some of the best MID WEST people in the world.

Always remember a horse will never lies and each horse has a value all its own.

Get into the horse industry because you want too. Stay in the horse industry for the excitement and the people.


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## Maxi'sMinis (Nov 3, 2009)

We will all be able to see how healthy the market is after the Texas Hold Em sale is done and over with. The horses in this sale leave no imagination to the quality being offered there, with all the titled horses in this sale.

The Greencastle sale has had some good horses in its time and some not so good. A lot of the horses at this auction are being dumped but quite a few are real quality and they ended up going back home with their owners or going to some lucky person.

I have been going to this sale since 2000 and the fall sale always brings lower prices. I didn't stay until the end of the sale this time. I bought a GREAT horse and went on home. I wasn't going to go and something got me up out of bed and got my butt there and I came home with a wonderful horse at a great price.

Let's see what the Texas sale brings and then we can all make a call on how the market is looking.

I know there are a lot of people out of a job, a home and money these days. Its not going to stay this way. The economy will improve, hopefully in a year. Let's all try to make the best of it. Do what you have to make ends meet. I only bred one horse for 2010. But this is not my only source of income, so I don't depend on foal sales to put food on my table.

In the years I have been in minis I have never been able to buy from the big farms and this year I have. So I can't say its been all bad for me. I have some horses standing out in my fields that I can look at with some serious pride. They are beautiful. I am sorry it has been at others expense but I wouldn't be looking at them otherwise.

The Greencastle sale brought some really low prices and a few better prices. Sorry to say that the 3 dwarfs brought some of the higher bids. There were a lot of colts that went low and this has run along the same lines as other sales this year. The mares that had a foal at side brought OK prices or went back home.

I think it would be best to just do what has to be done to ride this economy out. It will get better and as all the people have already said the private sales are still there and bringing good money for a good horse.


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## Robin (Nov 3, 2009)

Hi Maxi- I agree with most of what you said- except for using the Texas sale as a determining factor. I have been doing this all my life and this time of year is the worst time to have a sale. Anytime after the Nationals and World Shows are usually horse people's down time- the last thing they want to do is go on a road trip and do horses. That is one reason why we always expected lower prices at the Oktoberfest sale. People are saving money for X-mas - not all kids and family members want a new horse



Not sure why- but my husband would kill me if that was his X-mas present.

Anyway- I am keeping my fingers corssed- but I have a feeling that there will be some wonderful horses not bring what they would be priced if they were here on this farm. Their genetics, titles and qualities are worth much more than most people are willing to pay this time of year- let alone with the economy.

Again- just another reason why I don't recommend using dispersal sales (which my understanding is several of the consignors are getting out or drastically reducing numbers in this sale and have $0. reserves on horses) as a gage for the market. I have sold several recently (not counting the Oktoberfest) and have several valid inquiries for high end show horses and breeding stock right now- ($10,000 and above). I wouldn't say they are as abundant as years past and most of them are international, but a sale is a sale. The more inquiries, the better chance there will be a sale.

Again- I don't think the market is as bad as people want to say. I do think it is hard to sell an average or pet quality horse - or any pet for that fact right now, but quality is still in demand. Hence your recent purchases....



I think you got one of the steals of the year with your new Destiny Colt! I was asked to price his mother last week- bred back to Destiny......does $15,000 sound like a respectable price to you?

Robin-LKF


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## Maxi'sMinis (Nov 3, 2009)

Exactly Robin. My point about the Texas sale was that people are placing the value of the horse on what it brings at a public sale not the quality of the horse I totally agree about the time of year, people want to reduce the mouths to feed for the winter especially in this economy.

with the titles on many of the horses listed at the Texas sale people will not be able to run them in to the ground if they don't bring a high price at this sale like they have done with the other sales this fall.


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## Flaxenacres (Nov 3, 2009)

Now I do have to reply after Maxi brought up the dwarfs at the sale! I think it is terrible that people sell them.And I think It is ignorance, that some one will pay that for one. The one that would probably have the least amount of trouble, the owner even said something to this fact. She brought the least at $200. The other 2 brought $800. And the other $1000. And no owner said anything about them being dwarfs.I am talking from experiance, I have had 1 dwarf, and I have found her mother a pet home, I sold the stallion before the foal came. And I did inform the stallions new owner of this. I have adopted 2 other dwarfs so mine would have play mates.I have over $3000. in the one that was born here. And at 2 yrs old she is on daily Arthritist medicine. That will probably end up being her demise. One of them chokes alot which cost a couple hundred every time the vet comes out. And the third one Has other problems that I will be putting down soon. So I feel it is a shame that people sell them like this! I think they should find them the best home they can, because that person will be putting lots of money into them and they will not live to awful long. lorie


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## rcfarm (Nov 3, 2009)

Okay! WOW A lot different opinions here. Still no prices?? Myself I like to see the prices, horses with famous pedigree or not. If tou go to a auction you take the chance. Myself have bought 2 minis from miniature horse sales. 1 is not reg. I would not sell him for anything, he does not have a show record, but he is a Jam Up driving horse. I do not show at breed shows , do not strive to buy a horse that is the IN pedigree



. I see a horse and like it I might buy it. They are all Beautiful to me. Of couse just another opinion.


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## Maxi'sMinis (Nov 3, 2009)

The Greencastle sale catalog was not posted on the internet so what is the sense of listing the prices if you don't have a catalog? If you went to the sale you have a catalog and the prices. The horses I stayed to see went from $50-1500(that was a no sale) but I left with my prize and hurried home before my husband left me because I came home with more chores.


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## georgiegirl (Nov 3, 2009)

Mona said:


> I agree with those who want the prices posted. We have always done so in the past, when many of us could only dream of being fortunate enough to have the money to pay that much for a horse, and now just because prices are down, it is suddenly becoming a sin or a disservice to the industry to post them. I strongly disagree and feel we SHOULD keep posting results, as we at least we can then can see the industry's strong and weak times. Just like a marriage with a strong foundation..."for better or for worse".


Oh, come on people.

You think that people sit at the sales, with catalogs in hand, and dont write the prices down. Of course, those prices get passed around.

What is the big secret. If it is a private sale, of course it is no one's business besides the people involved. When it is a public sale, with the world invited, it is just that up for public information. Everyone can see what the prices are and word gets around.

If you dont want the prices divulged then dont have an auction.


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## dreammountainminis (Nov 3, 2009)

prices please ?? anyone!!!!!


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## Royal Crescent (Nov 3, 2009)

rcfarm said:


> Okay! WOW A lot different opinions here. Still no prices?? Myself I like to see the prices, horses with famous pedigree or not. If tou go to a auction you take the chance.


How about a response for those who think it is nice, fun or interesting to know? How about some stories from the sale?

BTW, the sale of dwarfs is sick, as you know that most that buy would not know what they are getting.





Barb


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## Maxi'sMinis (Nov 4, 2009)

I feel the same way about the dwarfs. The one dwarf didn't bring the higher price because it wasn't dwarfy enough. The other 2 were by the same sire. Hope they don't breed him anymore!

Last year there was a dwarf that was clearly in pain and suffering and it made me sick, I had to look away, he brought close to 2K I think, can't clearly remember I was so upset.

I don't have but the 1st 16 horses and then I even missed some of those. I think after 5 pages of asking for the prices and nobody coming forth you can give it up. No one feels like typing in all the descriptions of the horses with the prices.


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## Knighthawke (Nov 4, 2009)

One thing I will say that was nice at this sale is they stopped people from talking and talking about there horse. That drags out the sale. The info is in the catalog to read, I under stand if some thing changes the mare is vet checked in foal, or not in foal. But it was getting to be pretty long with everyone talking.

It did suprise me there was only 130 horses compared to last falls totals. I would rather sell from home for reduced rates, esp colts.


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## Ronnie (Nov 4, 2009)

In other words, there are some huge major issues in the miniauture industry and it isn't just "over breeding".

Robin,

I agree with all you said and particularly the sentence above. We at some point must stop ignoring the elephants in the room!

As for posting prices, we don’t publish prices from the Mount Airy Miniature Horse Sale or any of the other sales we manage and/or work at simply because we feel it is a courtesy to or consignors and or buyers not to. Just because a consignor accepts a certain price at a sale dose not mean they would sale that same quality horse off their farm for that price or that they are going to adjust the price on all their other horse base on the auction price. We also feel it is an injustice to the buyer who attended the sale and was able to get a nice horse for a low price because that buyer may intend to remarket the horse or introduce it into their show or breeding program and may not want the world to know what they gave for it. The buyer or seller may want to give that information but we don’t. The quality of the horse is not determined by what they gave for it and potential buyers should not base the value of the animal or its future offspring on what the current owner paid for it. We all know it you are lucky enough buy a horse that should be worth $2500 on the open market for $500 at an auction and everyone knows what you paid for it for that means that your buyer at home wants to buy it from you for $600 and considers you made a fair profit. Why they would not be glad to buy a horse that should be in the $2500 range for say $1800 is beyond me. In general people tend to look at the fact the person that had the good fortune to buy the horse at an auction for $500 is making a $1300 profit and not at the fact that if they buy the horse for $1800 they are still getting a deal since the horse normally would have been $2500 on the fair open market. If you get a great deal I see no reason you are then be expected to give your good fortune away to the next buyer that comes along because then you didn’t really get a good deal, that second guy did and he didn’t even have to go to the auction. I never understood peoples reasoning on that one unless they are not able to make their on judgment on the value of the animal instead of accessing quality based solely on price or what someone else tells them.

I actually had a guy call me one time a couple of years ago and tell me he was looking for a yearling and he describe just what he wanted. At the time we had several that met what he described and one that was right on the mark. We were trying to cut the numbers a little at the time and this guy was fairly new to miniatures so I thought I would cut him a deal and priced the colt at $1500. The guy thanked me but said he was looking for a better colt than that. He based that solely on the price I quoted him he had never seen the horse or a picture of the horse nor had he asked about its pedigree. He based his assessment of the colt strictly on price. Had I known this and priced the colt at $4500 he would have probably bought it since I heard later this was the price he had in mind and he later bought one from another farm which was not the caliber of the one I priced him.


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## Carolyn R (Nov 4, 2009)

Here's an idea,(I am sure I will get flamed for)

Wouldn't it be nice if WE LEFT IT TO THE ONES HOLDING THE SALE AND THOSE MONITORING THE FORUM?

You want to advertise with LB and pay for an ad, then you get to let others know about the sale in advance, members can ask about lot numbers, and the typical chatter that goes on before the sale like who's going and if so and so buys one can it get a ride.....nice polite conversation.

Then when the sale is over, leave it to the one who paid for the ad, the one that paid the expenses to put the sale on, the ones that invited strangers to come and visit, if they don't care then the prices and after sale chatter will be allowed to be posted, if they choose not to have any after market info issued on the LB forum, then it is prearranged when they purchased the ad.

Isn't that just a good bussiness practice?

I think If someone chooses not to advertise with LB the sale will not be discussed at all, period. Before, during, or after. They are not supporting this site, they are not permitted to free advertising by having people discuss it on the forum.




















, this is all said with a light heart, just my thoughts on the practice.


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## Maxi'sMinis (Nov 5, 2009)

Carolyn R said:


> I think If someone chooses not to advertise with LB the sale will not be discussed at all, period. Before, during, or after. They are not supporting this site, they are not permitted to free advertising by having people discuss it on the forum.


I second that motion


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