# Arabian "Type" Miniatures



## midnight star stables (Nov 5, 2010)

Over the last little while, I have talked with a number of mini horse owners who love the Arabian type of miniature over any other type. This comes as no surprise to me, however, what does surprise me is how each person interprets an Arabian miniature differently. I am not passing any judgment, but rather I am interested in what most feel an ideal miniature Arabian looks like.

I'd like to offer my three mares up for comparison. Each has been described as an Arabian type in the past, even though they are all very different in their traits. Which of the three is your ideal Arabian Miniature?

Horse #1:










Horse #2:









Horse #3:









Also, I would like to break this post into two parts. As I am limited to only post photos of my own horses, if you feel have a better Arabian miniature, would you mind sharing it? I know of one that comes to mind to me personally.





Edited to change two pictures.


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## disneyhorse (Nov 5, 2010)

I would not classify the first or last horse as "Arabian type" really, I think they fall closer to "Quarter Horse type". The middle mare is closest to Arabian type in my book but being a baby, may grow out of that refinement as they usually get coarser as they age.

Andrea


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## Relic (Nov 5, 2010)

Sorry for me not a one as to a mini Arab type...but they are all very nice


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## midnight star stables (Nov 5, 2010)

Relic said:


> Sorry for me not a one as to a mini Arab type...but they are all very nice


Well that is my point!



What _IS_ an "Arabian miniature"?

Anyone care to share their ideal? I am only limited to my horses, so of course this post is a bit bias. Of all my horses, I have been told these three particular horses are an example of an "arab" type.

I don't breed or really look for an arabian type, so I know my gals aren't the most exact arabian miniatures out there. They are however, my beloved girls - I don't mind what "type" they are.

I find this post very interesting. The arabian miniature is the most popular type, and yet it is not really a "set in stone" type by any means.


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## disneyhorse (Nov 5, 2010)

To me, the Arabian type miniature will have a very dishy head, a very long skinny neck, flat topline, and very refined legs.

Most minis have somewhat of a dishy head and flat topline, but not all are "extreme."

Basically, put a picture of the "real breeds" next to the mini and see how they stack up.

Andrea


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## HGFarm (Nov 5, 2010)

Yes I myself kind of chuckle when folks advertise their horses as 'Arabians in Miniature'..... no not really. Some foals might be really refined with dishy heads as babies, but as disney said, do seem to outgrow some of that look that is extreme as they age. I have noticed also, some being photographed with a different clip to make the foals heads look dishier with extra 'hair' in places- part of the head is clipped and part is not, but if you look at the bone structure itself, they really arent any different than a lot of other Mini babies. The clip deceives the eye into thinking, at a glance, that they look like something else. (Not to say any of them were not pretty babies!)

Minis look like Minis to me, not like Arabians, QH's or other breeds they are compared to.

I think though, the terms used loosely, is stating one might be a more refined or narrow built one vs a draft type or heavier boned one. I dont know why they are compared to other breeds, except to perhaps differentiate between different builds on one so folks know the 'general' body type. Of course, other terms could be used- refined, petite or 'dainty', muscular, middle of the road athletic, drafty, heavy, etc....

I have yet to see one Mini that truly looks like any of the actual breeds they are compared to, though many of them are truly lovely Miniatures in their own right.


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## Reble (Nov 5, 2010)

I always say minis are either fine boned

or big boned.


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## MindyLee (Nov 6, 2010)

LOVE YOUR CAT!!!

I sent you 2 emails with sample pics of my minis that are close to araby looking.

ENJOY!

Also a coule of issues back of the AMHA world magazine, a farm was on the cover I believe that had a father/son pair of grey miniatures that I personally think truely look like miniature arabians. Quintessa Farms maybe???

YEP it was Quintessa Farms!!!


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 6, 2010)

For me personally I couldn't vote which one as I feel the 3 aren't arabian type.

Take a look at the AMHA mag. and you can usually find an arabian type in there. Mine view is alot like disneyhorse.


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## kaykay (Nov 6, 2010)

I have never understood why we have to think our miniature horses look like an arab or any other breed. They are miniature horses. To this day I really have never seen one that looks like a true arab. Thats not a bad thing!


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## wiccanz (Nov 6, 2010)

kaykay said:


> I have never understood why we have to think our miniature horses look like an arab or any other breed. They are miniature horses. To this day I really have never seen one that looks like a true arab. Thats not a bad thing!


Agreed ... these are arabs My link I have honestly never seen a miniature that even remotely resembles one of these magnificent creatures. These horses bring tears to my eyes, they are so beautiful. Unfortunately, some of the miniatures described as "arabian type" also bring tears to my eyes ...

With all due respect to the OP's horses



, they are pretty examples of the miniature horse ... why label them anything else?


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## Annabellarose (Nov 6, 2010)

wiccanz said:


> Agreed...these are arabs My link


+1 (Michael Byatt,



)

Shoot, it can be a lot to ask in the _Arabian world_ for other Arabians to stack up to what Michael Byatt brings to the table. LOL


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## wiccanz (Nov 6, 2010)

> Shoot, it can be a lot to ask in the Arabian world for other Arabians to stack up to what Michael Byatt brings to the table. LOL


hehehehe



Well, I have to admit, I've never had the pleasure of owning arabs, and I don't know Mr Byatt from a bar of soap, the only reason I use his examples is because that's what I found while searching the internet. And those horses, to me, are the epitome of all things beautiful and equine


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## Annabellarose (Nov 6, 2010)

midnight star stables said:


> What _IS_ an "Arabian miniature"?
> Anyone care to share their ideal?


As a former breeder of Arabian and Half-Arabian horses and someone who is still HEAVILY involved in the breed's community and with the breed's show scene (I also still own one 1/2 Arabian that I bred; she has done really, really well in SHIH in Ohio and West Virginia), I can honestly tell you that the Arabian people do not even agree on Arabian type. They regularly engage in epic battles on their internet message boards about "type".


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## Annabellarose (Nov 6, 2010)

wiccanz said:


> hehehehe
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I have to admit, I've never had the pleasure of owning arabs, and I don't know Mr Byatt from a bar of soap,


Ah, well, in my opinion, one may not be able to pick a better place to start! Mr. Byatt is a very nice man and definitely one of the, if not the, most influential people in the breed and shows Arabian horses successfully on the international level (which very few people acheive in the breed, as Poland has their type, Russia has their type, Spain has their type, France has their type, and so on and so on and so on).


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 6, 2010)

wiccanz said:


> hehehehe
> 
> 
> 
> Well, I have to admit, I've never had the pleasure of owning arabs, and I don't know Mr Byatt from a bar of soap, the only reason I use his examples is because that's what I found while searching the internet. And those horses, to me, are the epitome of all things beautiful and equine


And perhaps that is why some Miniature Horse owners equate their Minis to Arabs - they feel that their horses are the epitomy of all things beautiful and equine to them!

I once sent a photo of an Arab to Getitia because she had sent me a photo of one of her horses in almost the exact same pose. Both horses were the same colour and approximately the same age and it was difficult to tell them apart. Both were beautiful!

Isn't it always the Arabian that little girls draw when they are dreaming of horses? The dishy face, tiny muzzle, big eye, long archy neck and flat croup?


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## ruffian (Nov 6, 2010)

I know of at least 3 different types of Arabians - Egyptian bred, which Mike's are, Polish bred, and Russian Bred. The Eqyptian bred is the most extreme and were originally desert bred. The polish and Russian are similar, as the Russians took many studs as they swept through Europe. The Polish and Russian are a little coarser, but NOT coarse!

So IMO most "Arabian Type" miniatures are closer to the Polish or Russian types, but of course not true Arabians. The "Arabian Type" in miniature was created as folks started going away from the short legged, big headed, heavy bodied little miniatures from 20+ years ago.


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## MindyLee (Nov 6, 2010)

Mountain Meadows "Prince,"

his dam Shady sure looks araby to my too. I would say shes a pretty good example of a mini arab as well.


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## mizbeth (Nov 6, 2010)

I have done some research on Arabs too, and found that there are "several" styles of Arabs depending on where they came from. Some in fact were heavy boned in appearance. I was just looking for that web site to post it here, but cannot find it just now. It had the names and countries where they came from. I will look some more later when I get home from work.

The Arabs you have shown are simply stunning!


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## HGFarm (Nov 6, 2010)

Yes there are different types of Arabs- the Polish and Russian horses having a bit more body than the Egyptian ones, but are all clearly Arabians.

I also dont see why we have to compare our Miniatures to another breed. Can't we just set our own standards and be ourselves? Use our own descriptive words instead of comparing to another breed that Miniatures are NOT?

I admit that I think the Miniatures today are SO much better looking than they were 20 years or so ago and the breed is improving all the time. But I would not call a nice example of a Miniature as Arab type. I would say it is a well bred and nicely conformed Mini, with refinement and style. I have yet to see one that I would say is a duplicate, or even close, to an Arabian.

And thanks for the link to that Arabian site- I am wiping the drool off my desk here as we speak.

wiccanz, your comment about bringing you to tears made me laugh right out loud. I wholeheartedly agree.

Miniatures are Miniatures- be proud of it and let's find another way to describe our pretty horses without comparing them to something they are certainly not. JMO.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 6, 2010)

ruffian said:


> I know of at least 3 different types of Arabians - Egyptian bred, which Mike's are, Polish bred, and Russian Bred. The Egyptian bred is the most extreme and were originally desert bred. The polish and Russian are similar, as the Russians took many studs as they swept through Europe. The Polish and Russian are a little coarser, but NOT coarse!
> 
> So IMO most "Arabian Type" miniatures are closer to the Polish or Russian types, but of course not true Arabians. The "Arabian Type" in miniature was created as folks started going away from the short legged, big headed, heavy bodied little miniatures from 20+ years ago.


The strains within the Arabian breed are

Seglawieh

Muniqhi

Rodanieh

They used to be fairly well defined, but the "Egyptian" etc are merely places of origin.

For example I had a pure Crabbet mare who was Rodanieh lines and then again you can get Crabbet horses that were Seglawieh lines, (spellings optional, btw there are so many different spellings you just have to guess!)

IMO I have never seen a Mini that could be compared, let alone mistaken for, an Arab!

I do like the araby type but have found that, however araby these horses look, conditioned, kept short of fibre and stretched out in the ring, as soon as you put them in a field they turn into little Welsh like creatures.

When I turned my Arabs out in a big grass field, they turned into fat Arabs.

Actually changing what a horse looks like takes generations and I am not into "Topiary"


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## Equuisize (Nov 6, 2010)

*[quote 'HGFarm' "I admit that I think the Miniatures today are SO much better looking than *

*they were 20 years or so ago and the breed is improving all the time." quote]*

And right there lays the answer to the question..

Miniatures today look different than they did 20 years ago.

If you had/have access to some Arabian Horse World magazines from the 60's,70's and 80's you'd see the

Arab has changed over the course of the years, also.

If you compared them to the Desert Bred Arabs back in the day, when they began to be imported to the Britain, USA,

Europe and other countries you'd not think they look anything like today's Arabs.

Horses evolve based on the tastes of man. Arabian, Miniature and many other breeds.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 6, 2010)

Not sure I completely agree with you there, Nancy.

Arabs in the USA have changed an awful lot, not always for the better, either. They have become far, far too big, for one thing, but the Arabs that I see are very similar to the Arabs that I used to see, and are identifiable as a breed, unlike the Minis that attempt to look like them.

The_ pictures_of the Minis have changed a great deal since Amy Toners day, she was a brilliant photographer who did not rely too heavily on the newly invented "photoshopping", but, since her day, you can no longer be sure that what you are seeing is what the horse looks like.

I really like it when I go on a web page that declares that the horses are as you see them, this is a legal declaration, btw, something you can hold them to, and I appreciate it.


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## RockRiverTiff (Nov 6, 2010)

rabbitsfizz said:


> The _pictures_ of the Minis have changed a great deal...


I totally agree with this! I think the pictures have changed far more than the horses actually have. There were some gorgeous horses at the Nationals and World show this year, but even at their best after a year (or more) of conditioning you'd be hard-pressed to find one that looked as exotic in the ring as it did in its pro photos. I think pictures are being altered to make the minis look more Arabian, but the in-person similarities are still pretty mild. It gives those that don't know any better some pretty unrealistic expectations when it comes to Arabian type minis.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 6, 2010)

The crying shame of it all is that, if they just left the pictures alone, there are some truly beautiful animals around, really, really nice, in their own right, with just some tidying up and all the stuff we all do, sometimes just for our own enjoyment!

That is what I meant by "topiary".....I am not trying to say the horses are not good, just that I would rather see what they _really_ are.

If I wanted a cartoon or a caricature, I could draw it myself....


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## ruffian (Nov 6, 2010)

RockRiverTiff said:


> I totally agree with this! I think the pictures have changed far more than the horses actually have. There were some gorgeous horses at the Nationals and World show this year, but even at their best after a year (or more) of conditioning you'd be hard-pressed to find one that looked as exotic in the ring as it did in its pro photos. I think pictures are being altered to make the minis look more Arabian, but the in-person similarities are still pretty mild. It gives those that don't know any better some pretty unrealistic expectations when it comes to Arabian type minis.


This is so true! There is one photographer who makes the horses look so unreal that I would insist on natural photographs before I would buy the horse. It's easy to pick them out, even without the photog's logo.

I think bottom line is that people - myself included - consider today's show miniature to be "arab TYPE" because they are more fine boned and elegant. Not to say they are ARABIAN, but Arabian TYPE. They look more like an Arabian than a Quarter Horse or a Draft. I believe that is why most folks call them Arabian Type.


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## Minimor (Nov 7, 2010)

"Arabian type" is one thing--when someone says Arabian type I do picture a specific type of mini. What I picture isn't an Arabian, but a Mini that is sort of that type. Mind you, often when they say Arabian type and I see the horse or a photo of the horse, I do have to think that I really don't see any Arabian type there!

However--there are more than a few people who will brag that they have a horse that is "a true Arabian in miniature". When someone says that, I still don't picture a Mini sized Arab, I just think "not likely" because I have yet to see a Mini that truly looks like an Arabian.


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## CCC (Nov 7, 2010)

rabbitsfizz said:


> The strains within the Arabian breed are
> 
> Seglawieh
> 
> ...


Sounds like you know what you are talking about.. I need you to tell me how my Arab is bred .. as it all sounds like gibberish to me! (coming from the APHA horse world) 

TO OP>>

I ADORE your first mare!! I would LOVE to have a medicine hat




, and your 2nd filly is beautiful! of course all 3 are though!

Nicole


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## MindyLee (Nov 7, 2010)

Sorry but I feel this has what once again was supposed to be a fun thread has become a mud sling thread and compleatly went the other way then intended. If theres NO type araby miniatures then everyone should'nt use terms of drafty or QH type either. It should be big, med, & fined boned miniatures. IMO

There are miniatures out there that do look closly like a arab and I even tricked a arab owner/breeder the other day at work. She said this pic I showed her was "very very close" and was quite impressed.


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## ClickMini (Nov 7, 2010)

This is the closest I have to "Arabian-type." I agree with a previous poster who thinks people place this label on a mini they believe has: 1) a beautiful head and neck, clean throatlatch and set high. 2) flat croup. 3) Delicate features and appearance. As another previous poster mentions, there are several sub-types even in the Arabian breed.

Finch Meadow Esprit











In answer to your question about your own horses, I feel both #2 and #3 would be typical of what people would label Arabian-type. What gorgeous animals.


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## Tab (Nov 10, 2010)

My first horse was an Egyptian-bred Arabian. They are a favorite breed with presence but I much prefer the miniature horse temperament.



Egyptian Arabians are larger, heavier, hardier, and more angular than the show Arabians I've seen in the US. I think the third horse looks most like an Arabian. High tail set, good bone, and dishy face.

The second looks like a halter-class Arabian. Very refined, but it's a baby, hard to judge. I like to see some bone and substance. Besides a slight dish to the head the first doesn't look Arabian at all.

High tail set, short back, dished face, small muzzle, good bone, hard hooves, and small, well placed "magnetic ears." I think "Arabian Type" is overused also. There are some that look more like Arabians than others though. That is the fun of minis, you can have just about any "breed type" of mini.

Example, Great Maharaja


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## ruffian (Nov 10, 2010)

MindyLee said:


> Sorry but I feel this has what once again was supposed to be a fun thread has become a mud sling thread and compleatly went the other way then intended. If theres NO type araby miniatures then everyone should'nt use terms of drafty or QH type either. It should be big, med, & fined boned miniatures. IMO
> 
> There are miniatures out there that do look closly like a arab and I even tricked a arab owner/breeder the other day at work. She said this pic I showed her was "very very close" and was quite impressed.


Now see I don't see any mudslinging or nasty comments in this thread??? I think it's a fun thread with lots of positive responses


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## dreaminmini (Nov 10, 2010)

Here is my little "arabian" type.


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## REO (Nov 11, 2010)

It personally bothers me when people say that pro pics are altered.

I know some are!!!

But those statements cause people to look at ALL horses in pro pics as "It must be photoshopped". It bothers me that people will look at MY stallions and think they are fake.

Let me tell you, Lotto was NOT photoshopped in any way in his Liz pics. That is how he looked in person! True he doesn't walk around with his neck hooked, but he can do it (and does) on occasion.

I was there, feet away from Pooka as he got his Liz pics taken. I was standing next to her as she took them. He was breathtaking and I had tears running down my face at his beauty. And Liz herself (who has seen the best) said BEAUTIFUL!!! About 20 times as she shot film! She loved him!

Yup, off topic LOL!



But I wanted to finally say how I feel when people say pro pics are fake and it makes me feel like they're causing people to doubt MY horses.

I am not bothered by people saying a mini is draft TYPE or TB TYPE or Arab TYPE. They are only saying what type the horse is, not claiming the horse IS that other breed. Well, some kinda do and I roll my eyes LOL.

To me it's like someone using a word to describe, like, instead of saying a horse is sorrel, it's copper colored sorrel. They're not saying it _is_ copper, just describing the shade or color.

*No* need to "tear me a new one" saying no one WAS talking about my Liz pic stallions, I only wanted to share my feelings about it and stand up for my boys!


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## SHANA (Nov 11, 2010)

I have been in arabians for 20 years and the third mini looks more like a arabian to me. Here are some pictures of my polish/crabbet arabian mare.











Also here is a video of her in 2004,


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## disneyhorse (Nov 11, 2010)

I want to agree that not all professional pictures are "PhotoShopped". I have had the pleasure of having a horse in a Liz shoot, and there is no doubt that she or her handlers know what they are doing when posing a horse. They can get expression and presence out of most horses, they know the tricks to get it done in an efficient manner, too. The person behind the camera lens usually knows the most flattering angles to shoot the horse from, that will minimize showing flaws. This generally eliminates the need for any PhotoShopping beyond maybe editing out a lead line, which never bothers me.

And yes, people are saying Arabian TYPE, not ARABIAN minis. TYPE does not bother me, it gives people an opportunity to express some of the features the horse has. If I wanted to put a mini draft hitch together, I wouldn't be shopping for Arabian type minis. I'd want draft type. Doesn't mean the horse is a mirror image of it's larger breed counterpart, just resembles it.

However, this "resemblance" is often mistaken by some people, and any dish to the head or the ability for the stallion to hook it's neck when talking to a mare even if the neck is set low and short, will make the person think "Hmmm, yep maybe it's Arabian type!"

Andrea


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 11, 2010)

Saying something is "Araby" or "Arab type" does not bother me at all, some are and it was I am breeding towards. It is when people think they look like an Arabian I get a little worried!

And as to photoshopping, well, you can see quite easily the ones that have had it done, so as far as I can see it is pointless. There is one heck of a lot of difference between a really good photographer who just gets those priceless pictures, and one who take good pictures of a mediocre horse then fiddles around with them!

I do not see the point, I never shall, and the pictures look ridiculous. I would never buy a horse form one of the places that has these pictures up....


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 11, 2010)

I agree its arabian type not arabian miniatures. Sure your not going to get a miniature that absoutely resembles an arabian, but you can breed for that certain type.

When it comes to professional pictures you just got to be smart enough and ask for regular home shots. I think its important to just get both sides of the horse, a front and hind shot, a head shot, and a bite shot, and possibly a moving shot. I don't see anything wrong with breeders getting professional photos done on their horses and putting them on their site. But they also need those regular home shots as well when they are selling a horse. What sends a red flag is all they show is the pro shots when they try and sell you a horse, and not go out to the barn and take pictures on their own.


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## Reble (Nov 11, 2010)

Here are 3 pictures they say are arab so different to me.

someone explain? Our Minis just look refined not sure they look Arab.

I agree arab type.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 11, 2010)

JMS , I do not think anyone ever gets the "dolled up" pictures by accident


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## MountainMeadows (Nov 11, 2010)

Thanks Reo and DisneyHorse for commenting on "photoshopped" pix!









I have worked hard, been extremely careful in my selection of which horse to use in my breeding program and have culled, culled, culled in order to get to the point in my breeding program where the horses look like they do in the professional pix WITHOUT being photoshopped to enhance their neck or head.








It has been a sacrifice and has taken nearly 30 years - and yes, we still have tweeking to do before I feel like I have met MY personal goal as a breeder - that is what it is all about for me.

Thanks again for mentioning it.


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## RockRiverTiff (Nov 11, 2010)

Since I commented on photoshopping earlier in the thread, I want to clarify my intent. First of all, as it pertains to the thread I have no problem with people ascribing their horses to a certain type. I'll have to dig through my old MHWs, but I'm fairly certain as far back as the 80s that the registry even ran articles designed to help breeders identify types. I think one article that was republished later broke them down into four breed types: Arabian, Thoroughbred, Quarter Horse and Draft. This was probably because those four types are the most recognizable to people without a full-sized horse background, but three of them have stuck and now it seems like everything has to be made to fit into one of them.

While I can clearly see how some bloodlines and programs DO demonstrate the traits of a specific type, as do some individual minis regardless of their background, my point about the photoshopping was that these days it's common for people to take a horse – any horse – and try to make it fit into the vogue type by addressing just a couple traits. Sweating the neck, razoring the face and photoshopping in the right musculature isn't all it takes to be Arabian in type. I feel if we encourage this kind of oversimplification in type – for example to break the Arabian type down to an extreme neck and a high tailset (traits that are also common to other breeds) – then we could inadvertently encourage some amateurs to breed for individual traits at the cost of balance and overall correctness, which are prized by ANY breed. An example of this would be the pro photos which depict minis with necks that are visibly longer than their legs - you won't see that on Michael Byatt's site.

In regards to the three horses here, I could tell you which I think is closer to Arabian type, but I think all of them could more aptly be compared to other horse breeds. They're all nice enough horses in their own right, though, which is why I think it's a shame that some people would probably consider it an insult if you said they are not Arabian in type simply because that's the popular designation right now. I personally don't care if someone wants to compare their minis to Schnauzers, but if divisions are ever made on a breed basis I hope the definition of a type is more comprehensive, and that proportion and overall correctness still come first.

I'm sorry if my earlier comment took this thread off topic, but it's something I think about a lot considering how often the "Arabian" designation is now used. I sure hope that makes sense to somebody, because it took a long time to type.


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## REO (Nov 11, 2010)

Hey Tiffany, I remember that article!





I knew what the people in this thread meant. But each time it's said in threads, I wish they would also say "not all pro pics" are photo shopped





People very new to minis read that pro pics are fake and then they see mine or anyone elses and think ALL are shopped. That's all I meant





In a thread on another forum here, made by a new person, (coming from big horses) they said that all Splash pintos were deaf. I didn't say anything but it chapped my behind a bit.

The things people hear and repeat as true!





I guess I don't look closely enough, can someone PM me the photographer that does shop pics? Or point me to a shopped pic? I wanna see!


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## RockRiverTiff (Nov 11, 2010)

REO said:


> But each time it's said in threads, I wish they would also say "not all pro pics" are photo shopped


Fair enough. Let me add to my earlier post: *Not all pro pics are photoshopped.*

I think I've said all I need to say now.


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## Lost Spoke Ranch (Nov 13, 2010)

I personally don't have a problem with someone describing miniatures as types. Arabian doesn't come to my mind when I look at the pics of the three horses listed. I try not to label our horses anything other than appy “type” and most of the commentary about our horses comes from what someone else sees to discribe them. I am thrilled to have the freedom to raise miniatures and produce what I feel is a competitive and beautiful little horse.

You know, I agree, and get a bit irritated too when I hear professional photographs are photoshopped. Most of our professional photos were taken by Liz McMillian and we've been present while the photos were taken. Liz's handlers know how to get the bests poses, have horses using their necks to the optimum, and know when to snap the pictures when the horses are at their best. Not to mention, she understands lighting and all the many little things that go into making a great photos possible. Liz knows the business of photography.

Dawn


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## ruffian (Nov 13, 2010)

RockRiverTiff said:


> Fair enough. Let me add to my earlier post: *Not all pro pics are photoshopped.*
> 
> I think I've said all I need to say now.



Me too - Not ALL pro photos are photoshopped!!


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## HGFarm (Nov 14, 2010)

I know a LOT of folks whose professional pics are not 'shopped' or 'chopped' LOL And I have personally seen the ones at Lost Spoke for example, and must say that I think they are even more stunning in person that in the photos (JMO) so that can work both ways when folks look at photos of horses. It is hard to capture on film sometimes, the living, breathing beauty of such magnificant animals. I admire the photographers who can do so!

I also agree that it is nice that Minis can come in various 'types' for what each individual likes or desires.

I also dont recall anyone here saying anything bad about the originally posted horses. I think they are lovely, just not what I would all typically Arabian type, but they are very nice horses. Interesting discussion.

REO, I have seen conversations on the Forum too that chapped my hide as well with misinformation and somewhat silly things about equines, but I guess everyone has to learn and to air it on a Forum and be able to be educated with the truth is a great way to clear up those myths and rumors, and keep them from continuing to be spread. (But then, there are always those who have their minds set and wont hear of anything else, LOL)


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## Riverdance (Nov 14, 2010)

I would have to go with horse number 2, she is more up headed, clean throat latch, better shoulder and better hip, though she is seriously parked out trying to get the flat croup. Though to be truthful, I would say they are more like other breeds than an Arabian.

As for todays pictures not looking like the real horse, I will have to agree with Tiffany. Every year I look at photos of horses in the World Magazine and look forward to seeing them at the World. It just amazes me every year that the real horse looks nothing like the photos. I have been to some sales rows of horses for sale at the World. Each stall would have a photo of the horse and when one looked inside the stall, one could never find the horse in the photo. There would be a horse inside the stall, but sure as heck did not look like the photo.

I am not saying that the photo was doctored, maybe just some incredible photography, but the real thing looks nothing like the picture. Many professional shots can bring out the best in an otherwise mediocre horse. The use of a skunk skin, reflective light, another horse or mare if the subject is a stallion. All of these gimmicks will encourage a horse to arch its neck and reach out or up. In real life, these horses do not stand there looking like that all of the time.

I have been told that many Europeans are very unhappy when they get their horse they bought because it looks nothing like the picture. Frankly, I would rather buy a horse with its picture taken by the owner than by a professional. At least then you know what the horse really looks like.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 14, 2010)

I think the best photographers don't need to photoshop, they don't change the look of the horse, why, because they don't need too. The best ones can make a donkey like a million bucks. Some of your amateur photographers they are the ones that photo edit because they can't get the best out of a horse. I personally cannot stand photoshopped photos, especially when they are obvious and done by breeders themselves. Makes me not want to buy from them. If they can lie about the picture then what else can they lie about.

Here's the thing if you can't go visit the horse in person your going to have to ask for alot of pictures and make the seller go out there and take new ones. Do not buy off pro shots because yes they aren't going to look like that once you get them off the trailer. Again is all about buyers being educated and making smart purchases.

Here is a list where I think should be the bare minimum on pictures getting sent for sale horses:

Right shot

Left shot

Front shot

Hind shot ( tail out of the way )

Head shot

Bite shot

Movement shot or video

Again I don't see any problem at all with breeders getting pro shots done of their horses and advertising them and putting them on sites. However they need to have regular shots of their sale horses atleast.


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## bannerminis (Nov 15, 2010)

This is a very interesting thread and I agree that to describe a horse as a "type" is fine as we can all conjour up in our minds a "type" of horse if it is said to us.

I have 2 stallions by the same stallion but are chalk and cheese. Sunny is what I would call a TB in "type" and more middle weight and Banner is refined to middle weight (he falls between the 2 IMO and thats all it is my opinon) and has more Araby "type" features. He can cover the ground like a dressage horse when the mood is on him but he is not an Arab but has certain features that resemble one.

I worked in a racing yard and even in the TB's we had different types. One boy we had could have been a hunter he was big in every way but he was a marathon runner and jumped like a stag. We had a stunning colt that was by Tirol who was so elegant with such a gorgeous head that he resembled an Arab more then a TB. You would stop in your tracks look at him. He was built for the flat.

I think that "type" is what it is and I dont think there is any harm in it. Its when people say they are a true arabian horse in miniature that its more misleading.

As for photo editing the only thing I do (only thing I can do lol) is to crop the pic as much as possible then remove whatever part of myself remains in the pic and the lead.

Photo editing is good to improve a photo ie. brighten, remove red eye or to remove an object once the horse is left alone.


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## Devon (Nov 15, 2010)

I almost see alot of them as yes Arabian LIKE but more like an ArabianxThoroughbred LOL

In eli for example he has the topline but I still wouldnt call it table top like an arabian but you could say it's what I'd aim for. Hes got the long thin neck but with a little less hook when naturally standing in this photo. The head is pleasant and has a bit of a dish to it but not as extreme as an arabian. I like to think he is an Thorab LOL. But really my point is it is hard to one type a mini, Very few possess everything like a trueblooded arabian there is always etleast a small part that is very differant.


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## ohmt (Nov 15, 2010)

I very much agree with you Devon! There are some that may have one or two traits that resemble one of the 'biggie' breeds, but there are really really few where I will even look at a picture and think, 'wow, he/she looks like an arabian.' Or 'wow, he/she looks like a quarter horse', and none yet that I've seen in person. When I hear people say they have an arab type mini I think of one that's refined. When I hear someone say they have a quarter type mini, I think of a moderately built mini. So I don't even envision certain characteristics other than bone types when I hear people compare their minis to biggie.

Most of my horses look more shetland type than anything else. IMO MOST people's horses look more shetland type (remember there's more than 1 type!) than anything else. Doesn't make them any less conformationally correct.


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## SHANA (Nov 15, 2010)

Devon just so you know, a arabian crossed with a Thoroughbred is called an anglo-arabian, not a Thorab.


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## Devon (Nov 15, 2010)

SHANA said:


> Devon just so you know, a arabian crossed with a Thoroughbred is called an anglo-arabian, not a Thorab.


I was kind of on a tangent not being specific in breed names thought more people would understand if I wrote it that way

thanks though


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## JWC sr. (Nov 16, 2010)

Interesting topic and I love reading all these different folks opinions. Thanks,


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## Tab (Nov 17, 2010)

You guys make Adobe Photoshop sound like a new thing. It has been around for 20 years. I know it's off topic but I have to comment on this "photo shopping" thing. Not a professional photographer but an enthusiast who has worked with editing software out of necessity. I must say that _*most *_pro photographers (if not all) post process their photos. Adobe Photoshop was around and used when digital photography was just on the horizon, if only to adjust curves, color balance, contrast/brightness/saturation. It is not a big deal, and it only becomes a big deal if the model in the image is truly altered by the photographer. Not just out of place hairs, lead ropes, or wee wees in the pic.

That said, the pro photographers of the past still had their tricks, and there are grooming tricks, and lens angle tricks to enhance the appearance of the model. They use(d) an arsenal to make the horse look his best. Heck, I'm a plain jane that can look pretty good with the right grooming, angles, clothing, and a sucked in stomach.



It makes one have a completely new appreciation for what is natural. If a horse can look good no frills just in his pasture he is an example of quality!

I love the pics made to look natural, too. Kind of like those Night Hawk pics



To be presented as "less than perfect" will make for less disappointed visitors to your farm. It also says that the animal can look good without trying too hard.


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## Little Wolf Ranch (Nov 17, 2010)

I too, appreciate pictures of horses pulled straight from the pasture, brushed off, knots untangled and tidied up. Looking at dazzling horses that are clipped, shaved faces, sucked in tummies, not a a hair out of place and so much oil on their faces that flies slide right off. . . . .all the horses start to look the same to me. They are all posed the same, all arched necks etc.

I just posted pictures of my new mare and she is woolie, wet, not fancy looking but you can tell she does have nice conformation. She isn't overly exotic nor very tiny boned, but I LIKE some substance to my mares - especially the brood girls!

I like to see horses in their natural state because around here, thats how they look all year around! If you can't appreciate their beauty and conformation without the glamour and sparkle - why bother to have them?

EDITED TO ADD: You can take any plain looking horse and make it look AMAZING with a clip job, pose just right, photographer and some grooming - just like Tab said. Any woman and man can look great too, with the same things!

Think about how many more "Buckeroos" or "Nighthawks" there are in the world that haven't been with a trainer or the right owner to get them the "star status" --- many are living in backyards across the nation as overweight ponies. Just because there isn't a fancy farm name infront of it doesn't mean it isn't of excellent quality. It takes a good eye to see the horse that the "little plain horse" can be!


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## Quester (Apr 10, 2012)

This is obviously an OLD topic lol, last post was in 2010... But I just have to throw my two cents in, though they are a dollar late and a dime short.



I don't like the "arab style" classification at all. One, because they are not arabs, two how can you classify a type with a type that is constantly changing...all horse breeds and types change constantly in accordance with the newest show fads etc. Arabs now have some of the most ridiculous heads that are so overly exotic they look freaky and ugly...to me. Quarter horses are standing on straight pasterns and tiny feet etc...So why compare our minis with breeds that are also ever changing? Why do we want our minis to have all the arab characteristics anyhow? I prefer a balanced horse in miniature. If they look balanced, correct and good in their skin...then wha-la a horse in miniature. Not ALL horse breeds have flatter than flat croups and dishier than dished heads, so why should all of our miniatures. I once read someone tell another her mare had a goose rump and it was a fault. It was NOT a goose rump... it was a nice rump with substance and very well balanced for that particular horse...no, it wasn't a flat croup but who got to decide that was the miniature horse croup anyhow? I think it would be better stated to use comparisons like "refined" minis vs "stockier" minis etc. And if you have a bulky mini that has a great head and well balanced conformation and that horse is stunning yet doesn't have that "arab" look, I still think that horse should be welcomed for its balanced body, replicating a horse in miniature and should not be compared to an arab type and looked down on...they are suppose to be miniature horses, a horse in miniature meaning a smaller head in comparison to body, a leaner look, longer legs, well balanced and conformed...they are not miniature arabs... I don't like how flat backed the arabs themselves and arab type minis are getting, they look like table tops and not horses...I dislike how showing always pushes and pushes for more and more extremes that end up not being natural at all...you would NEVER see a wild horse with a flat table top back, overly dished head, straight up and down pasterns etc... I have seen LOTS of minis too that were very nice but looked down on or thrown out with the bath water because they didn't have the right look when in reality they were very obese which makes any horse look bad or had poor trim jobs on their hooves causing muscles to take on unnatural postures or even old injuries that needed the proper care to help the horse back to where he was meant to be... Strict diets, sweating, photo tricks etc can make any horse look good. I also prefer natural photos and natural coats.


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## Jill (Apr 10, 2012)

It would be intesting to see current (or "aged") pictures of Horse #2, if they are available.


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## supaspot (Apr 10, 2012)

omg was that 2010 ?? I remember reading that and it doesnt seem that long ago!


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## Erica (Apr 10, 2012)

Well, I don't post much on here anymore...just due to lack of time...

And while I agree I rarely see a mini that makes me think...oh that's a mini Arab, but I do see several that to me have an "arab look" about them, a "modern" mini ...or type, whatever your preference of wording. Just like there are some minis that have a "look" of a quarter horse, saddlebred, morgan ext....I have some of each probably out in my field. I am more drawn to the look of the arabs and saddlebred....or national show horses......so I'd like to think that most of my minis fall in that line of "look"

Here is a filly to me that if she were bigger she'd possibly look like an arab...

Aziza as a weanling at 27.5" - she was National Champion Open Weanling filly, National Champion Futurity Weanling filly, Res. National Champion Owned and Bred by







just this week, as a yearling - no conditioned or full clipped, has only been in the barn two weeks, and no sweats or formal conditioning.....so I think she will only improve


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## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 10, 2012)

Erica, Aziza is BEAUTIFUL! How tall is she now as a yearling, and how tall do you think she'll mature?


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## Erica (Apr 10, 2012)

Thanks Parmela - at present she's under 31" at a full year......so.......who knows she may stay A size she's definetly on track as my foals usually grow fast..... She's AMHR/ASPC, sire and dam are just 35"......


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## Katiean (Apr 10, 2012)

wiccanz said:


> Agreed ... these are arabs My link


I have owned 3 Arabs and NONE of them looked like the horses in this link.


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## Sandy B (Apr 10, 2012)

Each breed can have several "types" in them. Arabians come in all shapes and sizes as well as quarter horses just to name two breeds. They are typed according to what they are used for , for the most part. I have no problem with people saying that a mini looks "Araby". I think this stems from arched necks, dished faces and a flatter croup. I have seen some more extreme then others in "Arab" type and most of these seem to be halter horses. I personally like a little more substance to my minis then the pencil legged refinement I see winning halter classes. However, I love the hooky necks and dished faces. So if I had to pick a breed to represent out lil minis, I would choose a Morgan which would be substance with a great head and neck.

In the poll, I think "Araby" type would be a blend of # 2 & # 3. I personally like # 3 better (Morgan look) but # 2 is young and may mature in a way I find pleasing to my eye. None of the 3 offer and extreme exotic Arabian look in my opinion.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 10, 2012)

I have never seen a pic of a mini, without anything to reference the height, and thought "that's an Arabian." They just don't look close enough to ever be mistaken for one or really even accurately called "arabian type." But that's must my opinion. In sort of a nod to another thread going on right now, I do believe it's MUCH harder to get balance, refinement, long necks, etc., in the 34" and under mini. I believe that is what has lead many to incorporate ASPC stock into their breeding programs. It's just plain easier to breed for a certain look when you are dealing with horses in the 38" and plus range. That's just the truth. So maybe for some it's easier to breed and sell those. NOTE: I'm not saying breeding of any quality animial is easy, but easier in some cases. It's darn difficult to breed for a refined and balanced horse when the mature height is 30". That's just a fact. And it's still difficult in a mature animal that is 34" and under. But it gets easier as the horse gets taller.

But, if ever I saw an under 34" horse that I thought could truly be called "Arabian type" it's that filly above of Erica's. Folks, THAT'S a quality breeding program and even so, with all the national champions Erica has produced, how many are as refined and TINY as that one? She's one in a million in my opinion. Another one that comes to mind is Squirt. He's tiny and extremely well proportioned. He's not nearly as refined at Aziza, but _for his size_, he's extremely rare. Just my two cents. Now I'll go back into hiding!lol


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 10, 2012)

As someone that used to breed arabs, Parm, I agree with you! That is one beautiful small horse and has the arab look! Just stunning! Does she want to move to Maryland?


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## Quester (Apr 10, 2012)

But, if ever I saw an under 34" horse that I thought could truly be called "Arabian type" it's that filly above of Erica's. Folks, THAT'S a quality breeding program and even so, with all the national champions Erica has produced, how many are as refined and TINY as that one?

Don't get me wrong she is a very pretty filly, but this kind of wording is exactly what is a problem...Not ALL horse breeds look like arabs, so why should all minis and why should that only be considered quality breeding? I have seen quite a few minis 34" and under that were very refined and heck, I have even seen some minis that had NO legs at all and were some of the cutest little things I ever saw...Maybe we just need to realize we truly aren't dealing with horses but ponies no matter what we call them...some ponies do tend to look more like a horse than others...if it is a size breed, they should all be welcomed and enjoyed, every type depending on one's preference.



I still say it should come down to balance. A well balanced horse is beautiful regardless of what "type" they are mimicing.


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## Jill (Apr 10, 2012)

E, you know I love that girl



AND her new sister, too


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## jeniemac (Apr 10, 2012)

What if the words:

Fine

Foundation

Draft

were used? Would there be as much controversy?


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## Jill (Apr 10, 2012)

jeniemac said:


> What if the words:
> 
> Fine
> 
> ...


Maybe! We all see with different eyes... I like your list, and if I were coming up with "the catagories", I would take yours and add one more -- stock. A lot of times, peope talk about a "draft" mini where I see more of a stock (quarter horse type), or vice versa. My favorite kind of mini are the ones with beauty and refinement that are built to DO things -- good chests and butts


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## Matt73 (Apr 10, 2012)

Okay. Really? I haven't read through the whole post, but I did vote and say that #2 looked the most "Arabian".

The Arabian has contributed to virtually every modern breed of horse and pony, including the Thoroughbred (a breed created with heavy influence of the Arab in the 17th and 18th centuries), which has, in turn, heavily influenced many sport horse breeds since...; the Welsh Pony also has a very heavy influence of Arab blood (that's where the dishy head comes in); and the Shetland Pony; which, then, includes all sorts of other ponies....including minis (which have Welsh, Shetland, and God knows what other breeds in it). It's analogous to saying that the Modern American Shetland has a "Hackney Look"; the first time I saw a Modern American Shetland I said, "What?! LOL...That's a Hackney Pony!".

Miniatures are a height breed...I've seen very delicate ones, very boxy ones, and every thing in between. But many have much more Welsh (and therefore Arabian) in them.....Maybe we should compare them to section A Welsh ponies (my favourite





And, yes, Aziza is gorgeous...and very much an Arabian type mini, I'd say



....without question.


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## kales (Apr 11, 2012)

Now this is my own opinion, but when looking in the amha magazine I think the super dishy head is so way over done and some don't even look like horses anymore. I've had non horsie friends see the magazines and say ' ew what's wrong with that horses head!?!' *no offense to anyone*

Im not a breeder and I agree with only breeding mares and stallions that are healthy confirmation and genetics, but I feel the 'Arab' type minis are getting to be too man made.


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## Jean A (Apr 11, 2012)

Kales..I tend to agree. The first pics I saw of the extreme mini dish shape looked more like a deformity than an asset. But then, I also feel there is more Icelandic in them than we hear about. In any case, I love them all!


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## Jean_B (Apr 11, 2012)

I have never seen a mini that truly looks like an Arab...and I've been in this business 21 years, having attended Nationals since 1995. NEVER.


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## Tremor (Apr 11, 2012)

Personally, I am not a fan of the "arabian" style miniatures.

I like a nice, fine, conformed animal but I would rather have a performance bred mini with some legs than a Arabian style mini with a neck that resembles a serpents. (My opinion)

I don't see the use of an arabian style miniatures. Arabians (halter) are becoming animals for the only use of prancing around and setting up. No riding or whatever. We as miniature horse enthusiasts try daily to fight the question, "What can you do with a miniature?" Why would we want to base our ponies off a horse that has no use other than looking "pretty"?

If I ever get into breeding I don't want to breed such animals. I want miniatures that can jump and pull a cart; not stand their and lift its head it for me in the ring.


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## Minimor (Apr 11, 2012)

Well honestly, there is a lot more to Arabian type than a long snakey neck! I have to say that Miniatures are still a very, very long way from looking anything like the extreme "halter type" Arabian some here are referring to. I agree with Jean B--I've never yet seen a Mini that truly looks like an Arabian--certainly I have never yet seen one that I would ever mistake for an Arabian even if I saw it in a photo with nothing else to compare to and judge the horse's size by. There is just a world of difference between Arabian and Miniatures.

I have to point out that it takes more than legs to make a performance horse. It takes more than substance to make a performance horse. There is absolutely no reason why a refined horse with a long, never-needs-sweating-to-look-good-in-a-halter-class neck can't have everything else it takes to make a good performance horse.


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## vvf (Apr 11, 2012)

If I owned Erica's filly, I sure would call her "Arabian Type" She is gorgeous. I had Arabians back in the 70's, and I love the breed. And No, I have never seen a Mini that truely looks like an Arabian.... But since I love Arabians, I don't see any reason that I can't strive to have a little horse that may resemble an Arab.. I have been trying for over 30 years... and do I have a little Arabian yet? Nope, Do I ever expect to have a "true" Mini Arab? Nope....but I will keep trying. (oh, and I'd like color with mine too LOL)


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## supaspot (Apr 12, 2012)

jeniemac said:


> What if the words:
> 
> Fine
> 
> ...


great idea but out of curiosity whats the difference between foundation and a draft , I always thought they were the same thing


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 12, 2012)

I think until you can make a definition for foundation type for miniatures it can be anything. Too me I consider it to be the stock/draft type.

If I were to separate everything by type I would break it down like this personally:

Pleasure/Saddle

Stock/Hunter

Draft

The majority of minis are the Stock/Hunter type but those who show and win in halter are more of your Pleasure/Saddle types.


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## circlesinthesand (Apr 12, 2012)

Tremor said:


> Personally, I am not a fan of the "arabian" style miniatures.
> 
> I like a nice, fine, conformed animal but I would rather have a performance bred mini with some legs than a Arabian style mini with a neck that resembles a serpents. (My opinion)
> 
> ...


This would be me. Here's my two cents, FWIW, and this might be a little scattered because I'm working this morning and trying to type at the same time 

I believe in performance over looks. The form should match the function. Trying to stuff a horse that only looks pretty into a job it can't do never works out well. Things fall apart somewhere.

I'm a stock horse gal, Having been immersed in performance horses for years (since I was a very young child,) Arabian style doesn't mean much to me in terms of performance as when I look at an Arab in the halter sense all I see is the prancy type that I used to see at 4H shows and still see in those over done pictures of a stretched out body with a wild eyed look. Horses that kids couldn't handle or if they were sane enough to handle, they became lunatics in the ring when someone was popping whips at them to get them to stretch their neck. Don't get me wrong I LIKE a clean thin neck and a small well shaped face as good as any other. They're beautiful creatures, elegant, refined, but for a riding horse halter type Arabians have never done it for me. The Arabians I do like tend to be very stocky in terms of Arabians, horses that can hold up under pressure and hold their riders without problems. Still lighter boned than most nice QH's but not at all this thin boned flighty creatures the halter people prefer. For the record I'm not wild about halter QH's either. My animals are all performance animals, there's not a drop of halter anywhere in them.... They'd be laughed at in most halter competitions BUT their form matches their function!! and they do their function very well.

Sooooo, when I picked out my mini after years of window shopping, I went with the one that looked more like my horses because this is what I know can perform. The face is often just a bonus. You don't ride (or drive) the head! But I do like a cute face so I looked for what I like, paying paticular attention to the eye because I like a kind soft eye. In fact my little guy has the same look in his eye as my calmer gelding. If I can get a good pic of little guy's face I'll post to compare, in fact I have a great shot of my QH at about the same age that I'll try to match. Their faces are very similar. But if you look at my QH, he might have a better looking head than some Arabians, it's short, slightly dishy (not overly so) and just really attractive and cute.

Are either of them truly Arabian type because their face is dishy? no not really. My QH certainly is not, he is ALL QH. But neither is the little guy a stock horse type at all. I will admit my little guy has more of a flat rump than my QH, and in QH we WANT long sloping hips, this is where the burst of powerful speed in the 1/4 mile and all the power to turn on a calf etc. comes from but I recognize that I'll probably never find that in a mini. And do I really want or need it? They'll be pulling horses, So I guess what I'm saying, in my limited experience and window shopping, I have yet to see a mini fit a 'stock horse' profile either. They all look slightly arab-y to me, OR like a fat little pony, lol. I admit I am more attracted to what ya'll are calling the 'arabian' types in that they're lighter and look like they can move well but I don't want it so light that it can't pull. I want a cart horse, I want it to be able to trot on and hold some endurance (like a lighter boned arabian,) but at the same time it needs to have the strength and power to pull (like a draft.) In drafts those bigger necks help with pulling but they also go slow and plod along without alot of endurance, this is not what I really want in a mini either. So a balance is made so that form matches function...'type' doesn't matter one little bit to me. FUNCTION does! A good horse is a good horse.


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## tagalong (Apr 12, 2012)

> I have to point out that it takes more than legs to make a performance horse. It takes more than substance to make a performance horse. There is absolutely no reason why a refined horse with a long, never-needs-sweating-to-look-good-in-a-halter-class neck can't have everything else it takes to make a good performance horse.


This ^. That more refined neck enables the horse to use it better - far more flexible than a shorter, thicker neck.

And I could name (but won't) some Grand Champion Driving horses who were a compete disaster conformation-wise. Not so important if for a gelding but crucial for a stallion or mare who may be used for breeding.

I have yet to see any mini in any of the magazines that have as extreme a dish _as adults_ as some Arabians do....



> . But then, I also feel there is more Icelandic in them than we hear about.


I have seen very little in minis in the past 20 years that would even hint at Icelandic influence (and I have been involved in Icelandics for over 20 years). Size issues would preclude that. No need for a heavier-boned, taller, gaited "pony" to be part of the recipe.


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## disneyhorse (Apr 12, 2012)

What I don't get is all the people clamoring for stock horse type when they want a mini to drive.

Horses bred for carriage driving (not pulling a plow, like a draft horse) are NOT stock type. They are fancy, high-headed, high-stepping horses. Think Friesian, Hackney horse, etc...

Anyway...

There is no way to argue type because everyone has a different aesthetic. A wispy hackney pony looks just as good under harness in a park class as a stocky quarter horse does in a western pleasure driving class. The person breeding the quarter horse will turn up their nose at the "flighty frail-looking" hackney and the person breeding the hackney may in turn shake their head at the "shuffling muscle-bound" quarter horse. Who knows?

Perhaps a division for halter animals is the way to go, but talking down on horses or ponies is not the way to go. A beautiful animal is always a animal of quality.


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## minihingstar (Apr 13, 2012)

I think my boy have the "arabian look", not an extreme one, but still


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## ruffian (Apr 13, 2012)

I wonder how this would go if you had 3 purebred Arabians, one Russian, one Polish, and One Egyptian bred. Each are Arabians, but there are very significant differences. in my opinion the term "arabian type" miniature was started when folks starting going for a more refined look over trying to breed the smallest horse possible. If I use that as my definition of "arabian" type, all 3 would be considered that type. I think they are all nice, and you should just be proud that you have such lovely horses.


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## Capall Beag IRL (Apr 14, 2012)

this is a yearling filly that i have bred, no neck sweating or conditioning - just play with her.

my daughter has put some of these pics on facebook and lots of people rang and emaile me to ask about her.

again not everyone looks for the same things in a horse and thats what makes it so great.


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## Jill (Apr 14, 2012)

I also don't know why some people think it takes a stocky horse to drive. What I said earlier, of course, is how I feel -- I like them refined and really pretty but with butts and chests to DO something. Not so refined a stiff wind could know them down



Some of the stock horses, stubby thick necked, etc., that are idea in some eyes to my way of thinking just could not ever be supple in harness. I like an elegant horse, versatitle horse and there are a lot of those out there to be enjoyed. There are also a lot of blocky, stocky...


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 14, 2012)

Thats why AMHR has the western class .

The stockier type minis do very well in the western class because of how they are built, a lot like their bigger counterpart. These minis had no place to show and created this class and has been a huge success and is almost as big as the CPD at Nationals. I think thats why more of your pleasure and saddle type horses do so well in the country and pleasure classes because they are built to MOVE!

There are so many types when it comes to the minis. I think they have divided these driving classes now very well and as long as judges understand the difference I think AMHR has it right. It can happen the same way for halter and perhaps not focus so much on height but have the different type halter classes. There were so many in the draft type halter class at the one show I went too I think it can really fill these classes up especially at Nationals.


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## Jill (Apr 14, 2012)

I don't know... I guess so many people see things with different eyes. A lot of times what I see described as a stocky mini is to my eyes coarse and blocky. We have a National champion at halter / halter hall of famer beautiful stallion who isn't stocky and sires leggy refined A size foals. He is also Res. National Grand at WCP.

ETA pictures of "Destiny" the stallion I've referred to, and some of his daughters. This can probably "say" what I meant better than my words...

Erica's Echos of My Destiny HOF, National Champion (halter) & Res. National Grand Champion (driving)... beautifully refined, not stocky, but built to DO:


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## Kaitlyn (Apr 14, 2012)

As a fresh set of eyes in the mini world, I feel like this is one of the reasons that minis should perhaps have a more definitive breed standard (or standards, if the desire was to have several 'types' of minis, such as refined vs stocky). I feel as if simply limiting a mini to height restrictions leaves way too much room for personal preference and fads-- the desire for what is in style at the moment, instead of aiming towards a standard body type. I don't see how it is fair to judge one style of mini against another without bias. Kind of like if the AKC were to judge all dogs against each other with no breed standards-- one judge may like the short, fluffy dog, while another might like the tall, sleek one. Just my two cents.


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 14, 2012)

And I prefer one with bone and substance and not the long legged refined minis so not everyone likes the same thing. Too me what you describe Jill is more of the draft type and I personally don't care for them either even tho I have one who I would consider draft type I still like him but won't breed for them, but others may, and thats ok.

If we pick one particular type of standard you will be limiting a lot of horses but I agree that the breed is too focused on height and should look more at type. I don't see why we can't have Pleasure/Saddle type Under and Over class, and Stock/Hunter type Under and Over, and Draft type Under and Over. A lot similar like the PtHA does with full size outcross breeds by type. It also wouldn't be adding a whole bunch of extra classes if you take away the height classes. It gives a fair chance to those who breed for what they like and be able to show in halter classes and go for quality to the type they like. I think it would also help with the AMHR/ASPC Miniature Shetland debates and gives them a place to go along with the "straight" or "foundation" miniatures, or however you want to call them that don't have the Shetland blood or look. Is it the perfect fix no, but I think personally its a good one. I know people would be against it and thats ok, and I know people were against the WCPD class and look how huge that class is now.

All I can say is without the WCPD class I probably wouldn't be showing anymore, or not be involved with AMHR. I love to drive but my horses could not compete in CPD anymore. My "draft" type mini who did very well in CPD and Roadster his first year judges wouldn't even look at him the next year. So we'll see how he does in Western. If this class could become a huge success I don't see how taking a second look at the halter classes and see how we can bring exhibitors back out and support the halter classes and show their mini again in halter can't hurt. I liked showing my draft type mini at the show in halter and I think he placed well considering he wasn't in shape, braided or clipped, I wish I could show him in halter again but 90% of the judges won't use him because he is not the type for halter.


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## circlesinthesand (Apr 15, 2012)

Jill said:


> I also don't know why some people think it takes a stocky horse to drive. What I said earlier, of course, is how I feel -- I like them refined and really pretty but with butts and chests to DO something. Not so refined a stiff wind could know them down
> 
> 
> 
> Some of the *stock horses, stubby thick necked*, etc., that are idea in some eyes to my way of thinking just could not ever be supple in harness. I like an elegant horse, versatitle horse and there are a lot of those out there to be enjoyed. There are also a lot of blocky, stocky...





JMS Miniatures said:


> Thats why AMHR has the western class .
> 
> The* stockier type minis do very well in the western class because of how they are built, a lot like their bigger counterpart*. These minis had no place to show and created this class and has been a huge success and is almost as big as the CPD at Nationals. I think thats why more of your pleasure and saddle type horses do so well in the country and pleasure classes because they are built to MOVE!
> 
> There are so many types when it comes to the minis. I think they have divided these driving classes now very well and as long as judges understand the difference I think AMHR has it right. It can happen the same way for halter and perhaps not focus so much on height but have the different type halter classes. There were so many in the draft type halter class at the one show I went too I think it can really fill these classes up especially at Nationals.


I am sorry, I know I'm new to this and I really don't know all that much about the different mini classes and what is out there winning but I don't know where people get the idea that a standard stock horse has a big thick neck or isn't built to move? this just isn't the case. Maybe it's a percieved impression from all the awful things they've done to halter horses in the past 20-30 years but while I might not know enough about mini's but I DO know stock horses.

Does this look like a thick and coarse neck?






or this?






or even this?






The pally's neck in that pic actually looks worse than she is, she had a pencil thin neck, thinner than her dam's (the sorrel pictured with her) and I'll put any one of those horses up in tests of speed, quickness, flexibility and athletic ability. They've certainly been enough to stop a few hundred cows and still be able to pull a buggy on any given Sunday. Only one of those picture isn't broke to cart, mostly because I didn't want to chance hurting him when he's out there doing well in reining. Those are all well bred working qh's. Stock horses. Real life honest ranch horses, and none of them have ever been sweated a day in their lives and I know this because all but one of them was raised here from birth and the one mare that didn't came with her beautiful neck and still maintains it to this day. In fact every one of those pics were taken when the horse was FAT and out of shape. Their necks looked even better when they were being worked.

This one, however, will pull your house down and probably take the foundation with her as she trots away






JMO but I'd hate to see coarse and chunky lumped into a 'stock horse' category. Give me that dun mare with her son's



or this colt's face



and I've got MY ideal horse, be it mini or not.


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## Jill (Apr 15, 2012)

Hi, Circles --

That's a little why earlier I said maybe "if" we were going to have different catagories of type (for shows?) (which btw, I do not actually favor), then there's a difference in my opinion between stock type and draft type -- but often times people describe a mini that fits one word in my eyes as the other. Also coming from a big horse background, I also have an image in my mind's eye of the "real" examples minis are often compared to, but sometimes shouldn't be.

There are a lot of course, stub necked, blocky minis that others would call "stock type". I hear / see that repeatedly. I'd say draft or something else (not breeding or halter quality for starters, but that's my perception).

To show what I think of as a stock type mini, this is a gelding of ours and I think he looks a lot like a miniature QH or maybe Morgan. He is not the arabian type, but I still see beauty in him and refinement. I think he'd make a very nice driving horse. While he is not the type I breed for, I think he's awesome inside and out and his career show wins are pretty hard to top... He is a 9x National Champion / Reserve National Champion in halter, has 20x Grand Champion, and Halter HOF with a hundred + points to spare. Stock, yes I'd say so. Draft, not to my eyes.

I can't really hold out an example of draft type as we do not have one. But when I say it, I'm picturing some horses and some of them "drive" and man, I don't know how they could bend, etc... But, that's why we all have our own horses to enjoy and goals to persue





So, here's the horse I did mention, Tibbs Sundowner HOF. Sunny is just such a GOOD boy. I never have had such a hooved teddy bear and all you have to do to make him show is take up his halter and stand up straight beside him. Then he just turns it on, squares up and shows himself.


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## disneyhorse (Apr 15, 2012)

The American draft horses winning today look like this:

http://www.utopiapercherons.com/images/Ice/Icepick2.jpg

So the heavy, short legged draft horses for plowing are not really a halter animal. I think you would be doing an ignorant stereotype to call a mini draft type, when what national-show-quality draft breeders are seeking upheaded, long-legged horses with a lot of motion.

Isn't that also what mini people at nationals are striving for?

The Percheron pictured is a whole lot more flashy than what people unfamiliar with show draft horses picture, and is more upheaded with longer leg and action than many minis are.

A heavy pulling horse just won't be shown at Percheron congress in halter, does that mean that the Percheron association should make halter divisions of "farm style", "riding style" and "modern style"?

As breeds evolve and improve and develop, breeds from mini to draft, there will always be those who prefer something that isn't what the Grand Champions are. That's just fine! Most breeds have a variety of classes to entice a wide variety of exhibitors and enthusiasts.

The breed will move forward.

Andrea

The American draft horses winning today look like this:

http://www.utopiapercherons.com/images/Ice/Icepick2.jpg

So the heavy, short legged draft horses for plowing are not really a halter animal. I think you would be doing an ignorant stereotype to call a mini draft type, when what national-show-quality draft breeders are seeking upheaded, long-legged horses with a lot of motion.

Isn't that also what mini people at nationals are striving for?

The Percheron pictured is a whole lot more flashy than what people unfamiliar with show draft horses picture, and is more upheaded with longer leg and action than many minis are.

A heavy pulling horse just won't be shown at Percheron congress in halter, does that mean that the Percheron association should make halter divisions of "farm style", "riding style" and "modern style"?

As breeds evolve and improve and develop, breeds from mini to draft, there will always be those who prefer something that isn't what the Grand Champions are. That's just fine! Most breeds have a variety of classes to entice a wide variety of exhibitors and enthusiasts.

The breed will move forward.

Andrea


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## paintponylvr (Jul 14, 2012)

Funny what you find when you go out and start going thru past pages of this forum!

As to the OPs ? - I can't decide which of the 3 would be most araby in appearance. Why? Because I haven't seen any one type of Arabian. I currently have 4 purebred arabians, all on our website, and though all are related with some similar bloodlines each has something a little different in their pedigrees AND a whole lot of difference in their appearances, maintenance and manageability. I know that of the 3, I prefer the whole package of the first mare - she is appealing to ME. And the crossed front legs make me smile - ....

With the first person that brought up draft type, I almost rolled off the couch laughing! Why? Because Blackdraft shows why! Right here in little "backwoods" North Carolina there is a HUGE discrepancy of Draft Horse afficiandos right now - and it has caused part of the rift that has created two different Draft Horse clubs/associations here. The owners of the Draft Horses that look like the winning Percheron above (and other breeds look just about the same these days - just different manes, colors and head shapes - OH MY!!) - would DIE before putting a collar and work harness on those horses and actually asking them to work in a dusty field fetlock or deeper in depth. Several owners actually have seperate horses - some for SHOW ONLY and others that are FIELD ONLY and then there's the PULLING TEAMS (stone boat competition horses ). AND in fact, those horses with the longer legs and higher action, lighter gaskin and forearm muscling and "prettier", longer necks - don't do nearly as well out in the field... They don't have the ability to move the equipment OR if they do with their teammates, they don't last as long to the work....It's not as easy for them to gear down and pull and continue to pull. Even when they are fit and muscled up to their capacity! I hear a lot of grumbling about the "modern changes" to the wonderful draft breeds and I have to make sure I don't laugh, LOL. Personally, I think the continued refinement of ALL breeds here in the states is just something we love to "monkey with"... and I no longer see any one type in ANY breed of horse...

In the minis' and Shetlands now - when someone says "Araby type" - I automatically think of the ones in the Halter ring first. When someone mentions "Quarter type" - I wonder - Halter, racing or Ranch/performance? And when one says "draft type" - I am now starting to put one of two types up there - the shorter, blockier type but with a clean throatlatch that can go work in a field all day (in mini size) and the not as blocky, but higher moving thicker based at the neck but upright type.. O, my head hurts with all this "typing"...

Andrea's statements at the bottom of her post - HIP HIP HOORAY!

On another note - I dropped off a filly with a fellow Shetland pony driver in Southern Pines yesterday. She took me by Bill Long's place. I didn't get to meet the man, I figure he was out working driving horses, but she showed me around his barn and I noticed my tastes have sooooo way changed in horse flesh! The two Norwegian Fjords - couldn't tell on one and the other most definitely a stallion - were drool worthy. Even 10 years ago, I would have took half a glance and just gone "...eeewwww, yuck, what can you do with that...?" but now - I see a smaller, compact all around horse (comfortable ride, decent drive and ability to plow/work as well) with easy manageability (temper & feed/care) that while not having the dishy face I used to live for, had a nice face with WIDE nostrils that could easily utilize the heavy, humid air to good capacity and a large, calm, eye that was amazing... a wash and wear type that I would willing put in my pastures anytime! I don't even know if they are classified as horses or ponies - doesn't matter... They definitely weren't as big or as massive as any Draft Horse breeds, but were much "more" than the stoutest QH or Arab I've ridden - none of which I'd consider for both driving and working besides riding.They were small enough in height to class as ponies (less than 14 hh) and all I know I wanted to take one out and both test ride and drive it!! (I haven't comfortably ridden in over a year and haven't wanted to - until yesterday).


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## disneyhorse (Jul 14, 2012)

Ha ha thanks Paintponylover...

While the "modern halter type" draft horses may not work on a plow or make good meat animals like their ancestors, their flashy leggy tall builds do come from a "purpose"... To be fancy and eye-catching in front of a hitch wagon as advertising. Heinz Ketchup had Percheron hitches, Budweiser had Clydesdale hitches... And modern hitches like the Priefert percherons.

Plow horses aren't very flashy even though they can work all day in a field. And they don't catch a judges eye standing up in a halter ring.

I still think that there is no one answer to what a good "type" a mini should be. Yes, people who love quarter horses will want stock type minis. And those with a Saddlebred background will like a hackney type mini. One is not better than another. But the stock type mini may have an advantage in leadline, and the hackney type mini may have an advantage in park harness.

And when it comes to halter, the breed has evolved. Minis are a relatively "new" breed, and as a young breed we don't really know what the potential is. If breeders and exhibitors and judges are striving for something, that's the direction it will go. It's a big slow machine.

Andrea


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## Chloe196 (Mar 20, 2021)

Two beautiful minis.. same day.. full winter coat no haircuts.. muddy natural. Both so pretty in different ways. Both are rescue and no photoshopping here. One definitely looks more arabian in miniature.


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