# Internal scanning of pregnant mares



## WJS (Apr 11, 2012)

I would be very interested to know if you scan your mares internally for pregnancy, what percentages would you scan? are there ever complications such as bowel rupture? dose your vet carry out the procedure?.are the mares given a bowel relaxant?

I am told "No serious Horse stud would carry out scans on miniatures" I do not believe this to be true... your thoughts would be appreciated.

how many mares have you had scanned and how many problems were caused by the scan?

many thanks


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 11, 2012)

I have had one mare scanned, because the buyer wanted her confirmed that way. The vet sedated the mare and used a probe made for llamas, but still lacerated the rectum. I do not usually scan, but sometimes it is required to take mares to sale.


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## happy appy (Apr 11, 2012)

My vet wont do it at all.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Apr 11, 2012)

I ultrasound many mares of many varied sizes on both quite large and small farms. I have never torn a rectum or colon, but that's not to say because I'm better than other Vets, simply reporting my facts. Tearing a colon is an 'inherent risk' of the procedure and is more a factor of what the mare does rather than the Vet.

I appreciate the procedure has a cost, but so too does keeping a mare that isn't in foal. I think the cost of mare care far out ways the cost of ultrasounds.

Dr Taylor


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## tagalong (Apr 11, 2012)

> No serious Horse stud would carry out scans on miniatures" I do not believe this to be true... your thoughts would be appreciated.



What did they mean by "serious horse stud"? We are serious here, with many national champions to show for it.

All our mini and pony mares have been ultrasounded for many years. We have never had any tears or other issues. The mares are sedated first and the vet does the U/S. I also like being able to see how old the fetus is - and if there is no pregnancy - what the ovaries are doing follicle-wise. It is good breeding management and eliminates a lot of guesswork.


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## chandab (Apr 11, 2012)

While not as accurate, the vet did external ultrasounds on my mares last year, all were open (this would have been late season scans for last year's foals, which there weren't any, and we were dealing with other issues which have since been resolved).


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## Genie (Apr 11, 2012)

I know of at least one tragedy with the internal ultra sound. The mare died due to bleeding.


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## Blue rose (Apr 11, 2012)

I have had my mares ultrasound for most of their pregnancies, just like to make sure that everything looks good etc. Had one vets office in the area tell me there was no way they could U/S, so called the practice that does more reproduction work and they said no problem. They only concern they had were if the mares were very small. , Everything went fine and we did not sedate the mares, they stood just fine.


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## raine (Apr 11, 2012)

My Vet US my mares with no problem and one is only 28" No need to sedate them unless they are very nervous.My small girl doesnt have a problem standing nice and still..


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## ThreeCFarm (Apr 11, 2012)

When we were breeding, we always had our mares internally ultrasounded with no problems. My vet has a mini probe (is that the correct word?) and does a lot of reproductive work. Our mares were never sedated, but all of mine were very easy to handle.


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## tagalong (Apr 11, 2012)

Our mares are lightly sedated for the U/S to avoid any possibility of them fussing or moving - even the very calm girls. We (vet included ) just felt it was better to make sure things were always calm, cool and collected... with as little stress as possible. That is what has worked best for us - others may have a different approach...


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## targetsmom (Apr 11, 2012)

All our broodmares have had internal ultrasounds by an equine repro vet (female) with small hands and a "mini" probe. She has never used any sedation or tranq, but will use a twitch. However, if the mare is at all tense she will stop - or I will decide it isn't worth it. One mare (since sold) was so tense the vet got so she wouldn't do her any more.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 11, 2012)

Well I need to have four mares done in the middle of May, and yes I will ask for sedation as I don't want to chance any problems. As for the statement that no serious breeder would attempt it. Hog wash! Sorry but I don't have months to wait to see if they get a big belly when they are consigned. Plus a serious breeder would do every thing in their power to insur the safe delivery of a foal, feed and vaccinate accordingly, we need this test. I've tried the external before and it didn't work, with the sono you get an accurate foaling date and know the mare has taken within 14 days of conception. I used to only pasture breed, had a mare rapped and lost her foal, now I hand breed or only let the mares run with the stallion for a couple of months. Actually I haven't been breeding for several years, and this is the first year since 2009, but only with mares consigned to sale. I want the best possable for my mares.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 11, 2012)

I've helped with hundreds of ultrasounds and never had an issue. I've also known people who have lost multiple mares due to rectal tearing. There is a drug out there (buscapan) that can help the mare relax her smooth muscles (works wonders for colic) and for a mini, I wouldn't hesitate to request it. Sedation is only needed if the mare is a danger to the vet.


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## tagalong (Apr 11, 2012)

> Sedation is only needed if the mare is a danger to the vet.


Or a danger to herself if she got upset... or just to make the whole experience as stress-free as possible, as I already said. To each his/her own, Nathan. There is no hard and fast "rule" here...


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 12, 2012)

I appreciate the procedure has a cost, but so too does keeping a mare that isn't in foal. I think the cost of mare care far out ways the cost of ultrasounds.

Dr Taylor 

Now that is what i am scream'in!!!!! I do all my own U/S, as i got tired of paying 25 dollars a pop ( he will do them cheaper by the dozen) , and have never torn a rectum. I do around 45-50 a year. I give 3/4 ml of Xylazine in the vein, and in about 2-3 miniutes, they are in lala land for about 45 miniutes or so, I also use a twitch, as i do them by myself, and usually do not have a helper. Sometimes you will get a slight ring of blood around the top of your sleeved arm, this just tells me that i have gone as far in as i can, and i will back off, NO HARM DONE AT ALL,

Sometimes a little Buscopam to keep the colon from spasming can make it easier to get in and get a good picture. I am only good enough to get a 21 day pregnancy, any earlier than that and i cannot be sure of what i am seeing. Some Vets can see as early as 14-15 days.. Any Vet should be able to do it, its not Rocket Science, heck if they cant do something as simple as an U/S, could you imagine if you had a real problem??? .


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## supaspot (Apr 12, 2012)

I used to have all of mine done but that vet specialised in breeding stock / artificial insemination etc but moved away to another area .... I wouldnt trust my current vet


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 12, 2012)

Our vet in PA always ultrasounded our mares for us and we never had any problems. We did not sedate.

Down here they really don't want to, but will do external ones.


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## happy appy (Apr 12, 2012)

Where do you get the proper mini equipment? Maybe if I go to the vet with info and pictures she will try. She keeps telling me that she doesn't have anything small enough. Can someone with the equipment measure it and take a picture so that I can show her?


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 12, 2012)

Sorry I don't have any pictures, but my vet is a large animal vet, so she also works with alot of llama owners that get theirs sono'd, so she used that on mine, she just had to recalabrate the machine.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Apr 12, 2012)

Where do you get the proper mini equipment? Maybe if I go to the vet with info and pictures she will try. She keeps telling me that she doesn't have anything small enough. Can someone with the equipment measure it and take a picture so that I can show her?

The manufacturer of the ultrasound will sell the extension. If they don't have a specific one for their probe then they will have a generic one you can purchase. This is the information on the one I use currently. Its not really my favorite, no problem with the extension, rather its a little cumbersome with my new probe. Llama, alpaca, and mini extensions are all the same thing, no need to get mini specific. I have had my farm hand make them out of PVC pipe successfully.

Total Machine Vet Services

4450 Broadway

Grove City, OH 43123

614-871-8440

www.tmvs.com

[email protected]

Dr Taylor


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 12, 2012)

Well i can certainly understand not trusting a Vet, some you wonder how they got through Vet school. You would not believe what i have heard coming out of some of them, shocking really. Sometimes i have to wonder "were you out of class sick that day they discussed sonography ?" "Did you have a fight with your spouse, and could not concentrate the day they taught equine reproduction? Did you actually get to see a speculum, and floats for a horses mouth? Did you listen when they discussed how a horse masticates?

One Vet told a friend of mine in Raleigh recently, take the horse to the vet school, My friends response to her Vet was " I thought _*you*_ went to the Vet school, if you did not learn how to get a baby out, how can anyone there, less educated, and much less experienced know anything more?"

One Friend in Georgia, had a Vet come out for a dystocia, the Vet said she could not re position it, and told them she must "humanely" destroy the horse. They ask the Vet if she could use a Fetotone to cut the babys head off as it was turned and laying over its back, and that Vet said she did not feel comfortable with using a fetatone as it may further injure the mare. (i was listening in on the phone when that Veterinarian said those very words.)

Further injure the mare. Seriously?

Hmmm..... she did not feel comfortable with using a fetatone to at least "_*try*_" to make some sort of effort to salvage that animals life, but she _*did*_ feel comfortable with destroying the animals life ( humanely of course) . Thats was very interesting to me.

*Now granted i was not there, and i did not see the animal *, but if i were that animal, i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do _*any and all*_ last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has *failed*.

Anyone can kill an animal, but when i call a Vet, i expect him/her to do/try something!

I guess as with any Dr. , They are not all created equal. You have to find one that is smart, that _*continues*_ to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will _*not*_ practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, *however Not trying to find the answer is abominable*!

My Veterinarian is Dr. Jeff Schulze @ Foothills mobile he knows everything there is to know about miniature horses (he is actually a cattle Vet).

Dr. Blackwelder statesville equine and Bovine clinic. aka Dr. B, he _*is*_ the repo man, he is a big man about 6'2' i think , but can ultrasound the tiniest of mares with ease,( no extension, even with his large hands) and can make non breeding mares into viable broodmares.

Dr. John Martin, Maiden Large Animal Clinic, there is not a dystocia that has presented itself that he cannot get out, one way or another.

There are several more Vets in our area, they can draw a coggins, and sign their name to it, i guess that is something.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 12, 2012)

Please do not use an extension !!!! you can rupture that mares rectum!!!!! PVC pipe??????

Use your hand you can feel when the mare is staining against you, and can adjust when and how far you can go in! You _*CANNOT*_ feel that with an extension. The probe is tiny!!!! A well lubed, gloved hand is a much safer extension!


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## ohmt (Apr 12, 2012)

As a pre-vet student that has worked with many,many vets, I really feel the need to defend them right now. Vet school IS harder to get into than medical school and most pre-vet students go with a microbiology major. It is NOT easy, not by any means. Then they go to vet school, learn all they can, but most vets I work with agree that much of their knowledge comes from being on the job. These vets are expected to know EVERYTHING about every species from their clients and that is just not possible. Every single vet I know has put in an incredible amount of work to get where they are, but they are not given enough credit. they can't be good at everything, just like the rest of us.None of my vets have been very knowledgeable regarding equine, but they have always been open about what they are and are not comfortable with and they will try/learn what they can to help. I have one vet who refuses to ultrasound my mares and that is just fine. She has saved more than 1 of my mares from a nasty dystocia. I have another vet who will do ultrasounds, but he is terrible at correcting dystocias and is open about it. He usually has me work on the mare while he walks me through it.

Vets make mistakes just like everyone else and they can't know everything about everything. Most will tell you openly when they are uncomfortable with something -listen, don't criticize! They are probably excellent in many other areas.


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## tagalong (Apr 12, 2012)

> Please do not use an extension !!!! you can rupture that mares rectum!!!!! PVC pipe??????



In the hands of a skilled vet, the chances of a rupture are very slim. No more than drawing blood on a hand palpation. I will just repeat that we have NEVER had any issues with an internal ultrasound - including using the probes that Dr. Taylor suggested. You cannot use your hand on all minis - no matter how well lubed and gloved it is, it is far wider, lumpier and thicker than a small, lubed probe in professional, careful hands.



> *Now granted i was not there, and i did not see the animal *,


...and therefore you were not able to evaluate the situation or the condition of the mare at the time, and whether or not the use of the fetotone would have caused her greater pain and injury/distress. It is hard to evaluate a situation fairly when you were not there - and when the participants were understandably under stress and anxious about their mare.



> One Vet told a friend of mine in Raleigh recently, take the horse to the vet school, My friends response to her Vet was " I thought _*you*_ went to the Vet school, if you did not learn how to get a baby out, how can anyone there, less educated, and much less experienced know anything more?"


Here, if we had a bad dystocia that was hard or impossible to fix on a ranch call (i.e. may need a fetotomy or a cesarean), you bet we would load that mare in the trailer (as per our vet's suggestion and referral) and take her to the local equine hospital and not wait around. Not everything can be accomplished in the barn. There is nothing CYA about suggesting that a horse needs more diverse, specialized or intense care that can be provided in the field. Your friend does realize there are VETS at the vet school teaching the students? Actual vets and specialists ( and interns and residents) that handle cases and supervise everything closely if they do not do it themselves? I see nothing wrong with the suggestion to take a horse to a vet school if you have one nearby -_ they usually have state of the art facilities and experienced experts in every veterinary field right at hand. _Something I would think we all would want for our horses if they were in trouble.

The College of Veterinary Medicine at NCSU in Raleigh is nothing to sneer at and if I lived nearby I would not hesitate to have my vet refer me to them.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 12, 2012)

_*You are correct*_ in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for *.*79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, *never* the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost, 8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.

Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.

.

..and therefore you were not able to evaluate the situation or the condition of the mare at the time, and whether or not the use of the fetotone would have caused her greater pain and injury/distress.easy to kill an animal

You are right as i stated i was not there, but again, it is easy to kill an animal, does not take a vet to do it. Of course fetotones can cause injury and distress, but heck, it sure beats the alternative!!!!!! Bet you would have wanted some one to give it a shot if you were the one laying there!

_*I would never be angry with a Vet that tried to save my animal*_, EVER, no matter if the Vet perforated a uterus, or killed the horse in the process of trying to save it. If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight! 

Again, i must add that:

 You have to find one (Vet) that is smart, that _*continues*_ to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will _*not*_ practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, *however Not trying to find the answer is abominable*!

I am glad you have had no problems with extensions, but i am still nervous about putting one in my mare, my ultrasound from EI medical came with one, so i have tried it, i can not feel as well that way, and cannot tell when the mare is straining against me, as of right now, my hand will be my extension, i can gage much better when to proceed and when to back off, when i can feel what is going on.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 12, 2012)

Tagalong thank you for taking time to post, you brought up some valid points, many of which i am putting thought into, as i want to learn, and grow as well.

Do you have to take your mares in for fetotomys? They are done at the farm here, even when they are cut at the head and pelvis, we took one out in quarters one time, but luckily the mare was fine afterwards, and had a cute little filly this year!

On a dystocia where the baby has died, My Vet usually just goes in and takes the head off, its much easier and less traumatic for the mare that way, i usually work the pulleys, and his(the Vet) hand is the one in the mare for protection, and to make sure the wire is not against the mares uterus.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 12, 2012)

To The o'henery Vet student , congrats on getting into Vet school! it is very hard, you are right, much harder to get into than Med school.

I am not against Vets, I am just against appalling statements from them. 

 An example of this, " I would rather destroy her because i do not  feel comfortable with using a fetatone as it may further injure the mare. I actually heard this person, with a Doctorate in Veterinarian Medicine say this.

Another example , necropsy of two healthy unrelate foals, dieing 3 days apart, both introduced to a new pasture 2 weeks prior, only 2 foals there, they were taken for necropsy to Arden NC, Vet said, he could not find anything wrong, so it must be congenital. I find as i have gotten older, I do not tolerate arrogance. 

I am not a Vet, nor wish to be one, but as a breeder, I want to learn everything i can. I listen to knowledgeable Vets, i absorb everything they say, the meds they use, the types of flushes they do, the way they do U/S, the way they correct dystocias. 

I want to be the best i can be at what i do. When i loose a foal or a mare, i take notes, I write down what i saw, what i used, and what i did, and when i did it. I try to learn from my mistakes, so hopefully i will not repeat them. I pay attention, and i learn. I have had dystocias that i have been able to correct, and some had to be by the Vet. But i did pay attention, and I learned, i continue to learn, look up what i do not know, and strive to educate myself in areas that i am weak in. Even the Vet that writes on this forum, i read everything he has to say, and will ask my Vets what they think about what he has to say about a subject. 

What i expect from my Veterinarian, is that He/She _*continues*_ to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will _*not*_ practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, *however Not trying to find the answer is abominable.*

I am not against Vets, I am just against appalling statements from them. 

I am sure you will be an outstanding Vet, one that uses common sense and knowledge to better the outcome for your patients.


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## Kelsey - Vandy's Farm (Apr 12, 2012)

We have all out mares palpated and internally ultrasounded. We have never had a problem. Our vet has been palpating minis for years. Occasionally we have one that is smaller and he can't palpate her. In that case, we have another vet who has very tiny hands do it.


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## Kelsey - Vandy's Farm (Apr 12, 2012)

We have all out mares palpated and internally ultrasounded. We have never had a problem. Our vet has been palpating minis for years. Occasionally we have one that is smaller and he can't palpate her. In that case, we have another vet who has very tiny hands do it.


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## ohmt (Apr 12, 2012)

I appreciate the congratulations, but not quite there yet!




will be applying this fall, but I do have back ups in case I do not get accepted. A very good friend of mine had a 3.8 gpa with a micro major (excellent!) And a decent GRE score and she did not even get an interview. Not losing hope yet, but we'll see! I would actually really like to specialize in equine reproduction so I find threads like this very informational. You definitely have a lot of knowledge in that area! I know that even I am quick to doubt and place blame sometimes without thinking about exactly what the vet's perspective was, so just wanted to remind others that there are always 2 sides to everything and a vet might have a very good explanation for doing something that we don't think/hear about. There are also many ways to do something and I get comfortable with one way sometimes and forget about the others. I am constantly asking my new vet questions, the poor lady! She just does things differently and it takes a little more explanation to keep me from worrying. She is patient with me though, thank goodness!


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## tagalong (Apr 13, 2012)

> he could not find anything wrong, so it must be congenital. I find as i have gotten older, I do not tolerate arrogance.


That is not a sign of arrogance - more likely, it is just the truth. No necropsies I have have ever had done of foals told us anything - beyond the fact that whatever affected them was congenital. *Congenital *simply meaning present at birth and not necessarily *hereditary*. There is a difference there. You seem far too quick to jump on whatever a vet has said and label them arrogant or ignorant. Just a thought... based on what you have said in this thread. I am saying that quietly and kindly - not meaning to be rude in any way.



> Our horse only saw the students, *never* the professor.


And you know this... how? Again, I am not being rude, just curious about how quick you are to point fingers and find fault. Every case is overseen by a vet or intern/resident. _Students do no have full control of any case_. Not at any vet school I have ever worked with and I doubt that the one at NCSU is any different. Protocols are protocols.

Yes, it can be expensive - that goes without saying. Look at the facilities as opposed to a stall in your barn. Horses can be expenisve and any vet hospital visit will cost. We had a hefty bill for a foal who got no immunity from his mom this year - they were in the hospital for 2 weeks while he received joint flushes and IV drips and antibiotics. _Even then it cost less than half of what the bill was when I was in the hospital (not the same one!) for a mere five days. _Part of the liability of having animals is the potential for a medical crisis... the same goes for us humans, only it costs even more.







> We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.


I am not being snarky, just quietly and kindly making an observation based on how you have replied here... you also seem to have acquired a lot of contempt for vets. If that QH had stayed home with you, the outcome may not have been any different in the end but at least at NCSU he was in the best hands possible and getting the best care in better surroundings and was a lot more comfortable.

You could have calmly asked to talked to the vet in charge.

_Note: I am NOT saying you were behaving like the woman in my next story. Not at all. But there can be a lesson to be learned in how we interact with vets as well as the way they interact with us. _

When I went up to visit our mare & foal at the hospital, a woman was yelling (and I do mean YELLING) at the vet techs that she needed to see the vet in charge of her horse immediately - who cared if said vet was in an emergency colic surgery - as she was sure her horse was simply being held there to increase her bill and he really did not need fluids, was not in shock etc. etc. Her horse was next to our mare & foal - and he was in no shape to go home with all his IV lines hanging from the ceiling and his legs wrapped for support etc. But she knew better. The vet techs struggled to be as polite with her as they could. I cringed for them. I know the woman in question. She really thinks that all vets are ignorant and arrogant and she knows better. Despite the protests of the vets at the hospital, she took that horse home. I do not need to tell you the sad outcome of that episode. Then she claimed that the horse caught something at the hospital that killed him as the vets were so incompetent. Nooooooo, he didn't. Poor horse.



> Do you have to take your mares in for fetotomys? They are done at the farm here, even when they are cut at the head and pelvis, we took one out in quarters one time, but luckily the mare was fine afterwards, and had a cute little filly this year!On a dystocia where the baby has died, My Vet usually just goes in and takes the head off, its much easier and less traumatic for the mare that way, i usually work the pulleys, and his(the Vet) hand is the one in the mare for protection, and to make sure the wire is not against the mares uterus.


How many fetotomies do you have a year?? It sounds as if they are fairly normal for you based on what you say in this thread and I confess that I find that a bit alarming. Maybe I am simply misunderstanding you?

In over 20 years of foaling out minis (and big horses) I have personally been involved in only 2 fetotomies... one foal was tail first and not coming out any other way. The other foal was huuuge and was also not coming out any other way - short of a cesarean. Speaking of which, I have only one of those happen to a mare in my care. I have cared for other mares that had them who recovered at our farm, though.

I have helped friends at lambing time and the incidence of fetotomies amng the ewes was about 1 in every 10 births - a twin would get stuck sideways behind its sibling or a maiden ewe would have a huuuge lamb get stuck etc.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 13, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> _*You are correct*_ in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for *.*79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, *never* the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost,  8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.
> 
> Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.
> 
> ...





lil hoofbeats said:


> _*You are correct*_ in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for *.*79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, *never* the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost, 8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.
> 
> Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.
> 
> ...





lil hoofbeats said:


> _*You are correct*_ in the fact that The University s do have state of the art facilitys, We took a quarter horse that had a case of colic there. We were told it would be 2500.00 to walk in the door, which we had a credit card for. The horse was there for 3 days. We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for *.*79 per bag. Our horse only saw the students, *never* the professor. We were charged for a belly tap (which i felt was apprpriate, and did not argue about.) The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own) We elected to not have surgery done because of the cost, 8-10 thousand dollars, On the third day it was apparent that the animal was not going to make it, a student called us to tell us, the student said he did not know what was going on with the animal, but for an additional 1350.00 we could have a necropsy to tell us what killed it. Needless to say, we did not opt for the necropsy. Never did a teacher or professor call us, or talk to us about anything. We paid our bill in full, and got some very expensive education.
> 
> Tagalong, i do not know how to do quotes so i will copy and paste.
> 
> ...


1) Your horse DID see vets, even if you didn't know. NO horse in a VTH only sees students.

2) You can't bring your own drugs. When you go to the dentist, do you bring your own nitrous?

3) VTH's are the clinics that teach the clinics... the students there are incidental, helpers and observers. The real power is the PROFESSORS. Yes, senior students will do a LOT of stuff, ALWAYS under the direction of a vet. NEVER independantly.

Sounds like you really have an issue with this, I can see the passion in your words. VTH's are some of the cheapest clinics to bring your animals to. The costs you listed are COMPLETELY NORMAL for ANY clinic, never mind a teaching hospital. Very often a vet will be outclassed in the field. Going for help, and knowing when to ask for help, is one of the first things you learn in school. Going alone is how you end up in trouble and unable to deal with the situation. While I competely understand how stressful and upsetting the situation was, from the outside looking in your vet was nothing but professional. Was it ideal? HECK NO!!! But it might have been the best that could have been done at the time and place.

As far as YOU not being upset if the vet tries and makes things worse, his/her insurance rate and history with the majority of patients, AND THE LAW, all disagree. Its admiral you feel that way, although from reading your posts here I can't see you holding to that promise (due to the intensity and passion I read, which isn't a bad thing!). Stepping out of the bounds of comfort is a VERY bad first step towards disaster. You have to know when you are out of your zone and need help.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Apr 13, 2012)

Although I respect anyone's right to be upset for whatever reason, I also feel compelled to respond to a post. I do not intend to sway the Poster's opinions as I respect the fact that I do not know everything that took place to make them feel the way they do, but I would like to clarify some things so if others are in the same spot then maybe they can be more comfortable with the outcome.

One Vet told a friend of mine in Raleigh recently, take the horse to the vet school, My friends response to her Vet was " I thought _*you*_ went to the Vet school, if you did not learn how to get a baby out, how can anyone there, less educated, and much less experienced know anything more?"

Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are considered tertiary referral facilities. Tertiary describes 3rd level specialized care which is the highest available. Although students are present, they do very, very little. They never make decisions and only rarely do procedures. Residents are erroneously thought of as being students because they still attend class, but the classes are not Veterinary classes, rather they are classes like statistics that teach them how to do research down the road. Residents are fully educated practicing doctors who were in the top 1% of their class from around the world. Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are full of people that not only know more than general practitioners about specific areas, they also are surrounded by other experts in different fields like anesthesia which allows a Surgeon to concentrate on just the surgery.

i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do _*any and all*_ last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has *failed*.

"Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death.

We were charged 49.00 per bag of "special" fluid that was given IV, which we now know is code for lactate Ringer, which i can order for *.*79 per bag. The Banamine we were charged 30.00 something a dose( had i known that i would have brought my own)

The 'bags' of fluid you are referring to are either 3 or 5 liter (more likely 5) bags of LRS. The last ones I bought cost me $11.46. The average cost for Vets to get a product from needing to order, to receiving and storing on a shelf, to distribution to a patient is $20.55. I do not consider either the LRS or Banamine charges to be out of line. Consider what the charge would be to receive a Tylenol at a Human Hospital understanding that the cost must reflect not only the 'cost' of the drug but also the cost to order/store/administer the drug.

I hope this helps to clarify some of the good points brought up in this thread.

Dr Taylor


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## horsehug (Apr 13, 2012)

Thanks so much for all of your posts, Dr. Taylor.

Susan O.


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## chandab (Apr 13, 2012)

horsehug said:


> Thanks so much for all of your posts, Dr. Taylor.
> 
> Susan O.


Me, too!. Thank you Dr Taylor for the information, its greatly appreciated.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 13, 2012)

Wish i knew how to do quotes, i cant so i will explain my feelings, and i do appreciate you taking time to read what i wrote, and reply, even though i think we will dissagree on a few things, i like hearing what others think on a subject, and i do not think you are rude.

_That is not a sign of arrogance - more likely, it is just the truth. No necropsies I have have ever had done of foals told us anything - beyond the fact that whatever affected them was congenital. __*Congenital *__simply meaning present at birth and not necessarily __*hereditary*__. There is a difference there. You seem far too quick to jump on whatever a vet has said and label them arrogant or ignorant. Just a thought... based on what you have said in this thread. I am saying that quietly and kindly - not meaning to be rude in any way._

i had 29 foals born that year , all healthy, 2 were sold, and moved to the same new pasture, both foals perished 3 days apart, 2 foals dieing 3 days apart that were put on a new pasture 2 weeks prior. It is very hard for me to accept, that this man purchased the only 2 foals that year that died of congenital health issues, and both died 3 days apart. I think most people would at least " raise an eyebrow" at that scenario. 

Just because a Dr. cannot find something wrong, does not mean there was nothing to be found. Maybe he was _*NOT*_ perceptive enough to find it. When i spoke with Dr. Drum, the only thing i said was could you look again, maybe with some help, because that is hard for me to accept, Dr. Drum said he would, and said he found that scenario odd. I said I did not find it odd, i found it very disturbing. 

_How many fetotomies do you have a year?? It sounds as if they are fairly normal for you based on what you say in this thread and I confess that I find that a bit alarming. Maybe I am simply misunderstanding you?_

No , you did not misunderstand me, out of 32 foals last year , the first two were fetotomys, both presented in about the same way, front legs coming out head turned backwards on one, and the others head pointing down between the front legs. Gosh knows i tried all i knew how. I will usually have at least 2 dystocias of some sort per year, some i can fix, some are not fixable by me. I foal out between 30-36 mares per year. i use mare stare and equipage. And life as i know it ceases between March till the middle of July. Dr. Schulze could push , pull, and tug to get it out in one piece, but its just much easier, and less time consuming to take the head off and get it out, the foal has deceased anyway. You are fortunate to have only had a couple of fetotomys, wish i could say the same! Please share your secret! I would love to learn it! 

I would also like to state that i did not use NCSU, My horse went to Virginia, as i had him boarded in Ivanhoe Virginia at the time. But maybe you are right , i should have used NCSU, i will remember next time. We ask to speak to the Person in charge several times and left messages for them to call us, so we could talk about the situation. only talked with the student caring for my animal. I was never rude, but i do feel i deserved a call back, even though i feel you are right in the fact, the outcome would not have been different. I feel he would have been much more comfortable in his own stall in familiar surroundings, i hate he died in the hospital, wish i could take that back.

Things Virginia Tech taught me: i can run IV fluid, I can put in a stomach tube correctly, without bloodying a horses nose, I can successfully administer Banamine, and Buscopam IV. Things i cannot do, and will never learn to do: stomach tap. and all for a mere 5200.00. cheap education is what i call it!


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## tagalong (Apr 13, 2012)

*lil hoofbeats* - it seems you are still missing the point that many of us are trying to make... even if your QH had gone to NCSU, you would likely have decided the care was inadequate - just as your friend informed the vet caring for her horses in no uncertain terms. IMO your friend was out of line with her comments as you have related them and also had no understanding of how the vet teaching hospital facilites work - which is what some of us have been trying to explain to you. I have explained, Dr. Taylor has explained, Nathan has explained - and yet you still seem to be annoyed about "arrogance" and "ignorance".



> I was never rude, but i do feel i deserved a call back, even though i feel you are right in the fact, the outcome would not have been different. I feel he would have been much more comfortable in his own stall in familiar surroundings, i hate he died in the hospital, wish i could take that back.
> 
> Things Virginia Tech taught me: i can run IV fluid, I can put in a stomach tube correctly, without bloodying a horses nose, I can successfully administer Banamine, and Buscopam IV. Things i cannot do, and will never learn to do: stomach tap. and all for a mere 5200.00. cheap education is what i call it!


You should have had a call back but as I have no idea what was going on at the hospital then, the circumstances or the communications you had been having, I am not able to determine a suitable time frame or know what was said or should have been said. _One more time - it would not have been just a student working on your horse._ As to being rude, you may not have thought you were but being upset and under stress, you may have been abrupt and not realized it. Some of what you have written here shows that you can be passionate and not chose the best words. You called us crazy for using a probe - as you knew better. You have complained repeatedly about arrogance and ignorance and sneered at the idea of taking a horse to a vet hospital and yet were completely wrong about what goes on there. I am just trying to help you out here... and not intending to be rude. 

I can administer drugs IV. I can do a stomach tube - and yet have seen others mess their horses up when they tried to as they were trying to "save money". It is a lot more involved than just trying to avoid a bloody nose. A bloody nose can happen to even the best of vets every so often. I can do a lot of things - and yet when extra care is needed, you can bet that horse is going to the hospital, in far more sanitary conditions and with the right equipment and skills close at hand. I only WISH we had a vet school closer than 4 - 5 hours away. You should consider yourself lucky that you seem to have two of them close at hand. The one time we had a horse at WSU in Pullman, everyone was kind and helpful and went out of their way to make sure our horse had the best of care. And on the day I arrived to pick him up and take him home, a crowd of students, interns, residents & vets came out to say goodbye to him.



> "Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death.


I have seen some fates worse than death in the past. A mare so full of infection after a bad foaling that you could smell her from outside the barn. The owner thought she would be cured with some procaine and stall rest and had rebuffed the vet who said she was too far gone and should be put down. That mare lingered and suffered and leaked foul smelling fluid for 2 weeks as the weight melted off her. There are most certainly fates worse than death.

I'll spare all of you any further horror stories....


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 13, 2012)

_Dr. Taylor, thank you for taking time to address the issues i have had. I read all your post, and find them educational, and this one is no different. _

_Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are considered tertiary referral facilities. Tertiary describes 3rd level specialized care which is the highest available. Although students are present, they do very, very little. They never make decisions and only rarely do procedures. Residents are erroneously thought of as being students because they still attend class, but the classes are not Veterinary classes, rather they are classes like statistics that teach them how to do research down the road. Residents are fully educated practicing doctors who were in the top 1% of their class from around the world. Veterinary Teaching Hospitals are full of people that not only know more than general practitioners about specific areas, they also are surrounded by other experts in different fields like anesthesia which allows a Surgeon to concentrate on just the surgery._ 

I did not know this! I am 100% sure you are right, but.... they really did not seem like the top 1%???? i mean maybe i was just nervous about their judgments because i have never used those particular people as my Vet, and was unsure of their ability????

i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do _*any and all*_ last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has *failed*.

"Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death. 

I had a colt one time suffering from choke, for over 36 hours, he had a CRT of 6 seconds, fast, labored breathing, and by that time, aspiration pneumonia, he was circling the drain (and i mean going down fast.) When Dr. Schultz came, and saw, he said the foal would not survive, he sat there for a few minutes thinking ( probably about "Primo non nocere.") and said, "well i am here, so i might as well try something" It could rupture his esophagus, and that could kill him, but he is going to surely die if nothing is done, do you want me to try?". without hesitation, i said "heck yes i want you to try, thats why i called you!" By a MIRICLE, and i do mean MIRICLE and Dr. Schultz ability and willingness to give it a shot, however a long shot it may have been , he survived!!!! I am forever amazed at what animals and humans can live through, and how easily life can be extinguished. I understand how easily the foal could have died, i knew the risk, and i am sure the procedure the Vet did caused some pain to the foal. But if he had died, at least he would have been given a chance, no matter how slim it was.

i would want someone to attempt to save my life, go above and beyond what they were "comfortable" doing, to do _*any and all*_ last ditch attempts, no matter how far fetched it may seem, to save my life. Death only when absolutely everything has been tried and has *failed*.

Me, Julie Sherrill , am the author of that post! and i mean every word i wrote!!!

_Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death. _

 One should NEVER destroy life, all life is valuable, and EVERY attempt to preserve it should be made, no matter how slim the chance or how far fetched a good outcome may seem. Try something! Give a B12 shot if nothing else can be done! If the animal lives you will be a hero, and B12 the new "miricle" drug, it it dies well, at least you did something! (Hope you are catching my drift here)

_"Primo non nocere."_  is that latin??? What are the Latin words for "Take a Chance" sometimes i have found taking a chance can work in my favor. I am sure Dr. Schults was thinking about that "do no harm" thing, but he decided to take a chance, and i am sure glad he did.

_The 'bags' of fluid you are referring to are either 3 or 5 liter (more likely 5) bags of LRS. The last ones I bought cost me $11.46. The average cost for Vets to get a product from needing to order, to receiving and storing on a shelf, to distribution to a patient is $20.55. I do not consider either the LRS or Banamine charges to be out of line. Consider what the charge would be to receive a Tylenol at a Human Hospital understanding that the cost must reflect not only the 'cost' of the drug but also the cost to order/store/administer the drug._

You are right the bags of LRS that i priced are for humans, so maybe the cost for horses is greater. But i still consider the cost of Buscopam, and Banamine that was given, extremely excessive, as i can but the whole bottle for the cost of one dose that was given. So yes, i consider it excessive. 

But thank you for posting, you have made some valid points, and i will consider what you have pointed out, if/when i use another teaching school. I have learned from your post, and as always, will pay attention and try to get everything out of it i can, and what i do not understand i will ask and try to learn, just like your post about sterile water, i found out why both my repo Vets use this, and why they still continue to use this, but you were 100% correct in what you said about it!!!


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 13, 2012)

Tagalong' _ it seems you are still missing the point that many of us are trying to make... even if your QH had gone to NCSU, you would likely have decided the care was inadequate -_

I am not so sure about that, yes, i did not understand exactly how a teaching hospital works, but it would have surely been nice to get a call from someone about my horse and its updates, they could have given me an update when they called to tell me they were charging my credit card for something else, you know...kinda kill 2 birds with one stone!

_I can administer drugs IV. I can do a stomach tube - and yet have seen others mess their horses up when they tried to as they were trying to "save money". It is a lot more involved than just trying to avoid a bloody nose. A bloody nose can happen to even the best of vets every so often._

It can, but i have been doing this for myself many times for the past 3-4 years, with no problems, i feel am am better than most at them, maybe because i am much more careful about how i do it. Bloody noses are really no biggie, i just try to do it better.

As far as stateing ya'll were crazy, you are right that *was a bit harsh of me*! i really was not trying to be mean when i said it though, kinda just a thought that flew through my fingers and got posted! 

_"Primo non nocere." First, do no harm. It is an oath all Doctors took and it should be at the cornerstone of how we practice. The Author of the above post cannot imagine something worse than death. Those of us in the industry and trained to do the job can imagine fates worse than death._

Sorry Dr. Taylor and Tagalong, just ain't gonna swallow that one. 

Nathan _As far as YOU not being upset if the vet tries and makes things worse, his/her insurance rate and history with the majority of patients, AND THE LAW, all disagree. Its admiral you feel that way, although from reading your posts here I can't see you holding to that promise (due to the intensity and passion I read, which isn't a bad thing!)._

I will never complaine about a Vet who is willing to try, and give life a chance! EVER!If a Dr. thought running over my horse with a truck could possible save it,( just a figure of speech) i would be the first to start the engine, and step on the gas. 

I never complaine about a Dr. willing to try, only the ones that throw in the towel.

You have to find one (Vet) that is smart, that _*continues*_ to educate themselves, and will wrap all that up in a huge dose of common sense. I want a Vet who will _*not*_ practice CYA medicine, but will make an honest effort! Not knowing the answer is not a bad thing, *however Not trying to find the answer is abominable*!

 My motto "GIVE LIFE EVERY POSSIBLE CHANCE!" NEVER SAY DIE!

As i have gotten older i have realized , i am not always right, but i refuse to stay ignorant, i try not to be arrogant, and i am much less tolerant of these quality s in others.


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## mshasta88 (Apr 13, 2012)

I usually have a couple scanned every year and I have never had a problem as far as the procedure goes. Once I had a mare that they estimated to be about five week along but couldn’t find a heartbeat. Turns out that mare lost it before the scan and sluffed the fetus shortly after. I try to make sure I take them to female vets because of their smaller hands. Most of my mares were done without sedation but had the drugs pulled and ready just in case.


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## tagalong (Apr 13, 2012)

> Sorry Dr. Taylor and Tagalong, just ain't gonna swallow that one.


There is nothing to_ swallow_ - as no one is _feeding_ you anything. What Dr. Taylor and I said was a cold, hard fact. There are fates worth than being put down and avoiding undue pain and suffering that will never end. Would you care for more stories seeing as you seem to think it is a fairy tale?




Tales about minis... tales about warmbloods... tales about draft horses. All of them sadly true. I have worked in the industry in assorted disciplines and breeds for a very long time - and I can assure you that there are fates worse than a gentle death.

As far as the choke situation goes - if that esophagus had ruptured I am wondering if you would be here complaining about the incompetence of that vet... you see how that works? Our vet knows that in a dire situation we can try anything (and have) - as long as it does not prolong the suffering beyond a reasonable point. Yes, we would have gone after that choke. And if it had gone wrong, I would not have been upset with him as we had to take that chance. I had to take a chance on a visiting mare who had a terrible case of choke - I was the only one here and if I did nothing, she was going to die right in front of me and her foal. This is NOT something anyone should just try - but the situation was desperate. I found the lump in her esophagus and massaged it. I could have killed her. She was going to die without intervention and was spinning backwards around the stall. Lucky for me (and her) I managed to break it up and she was standing trembling and shaking, gasping for air. I explained it all to her owner afterwards and they were fine with it - but what if the outcome had not been good? Again, not something I recommend.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 13, 2012)

Wait.... you complain about a $20 shot of banamine, but you want the vet to do something UNNESSESARY and bill you for it, knowing it would be entirely placebo if it worked?! Talk about a double standard!!

Yes, residents are the top of the top graduating class. They are already a DVM (except you poor people in PA who insist upon VMD's); graduated from Vet school. They then a) had the drive and b) had the ability to apply to a VERY VERY VERY exclusive position. Of the hundreds of vets who graduate each year, only a small handful can find a residency. They then spend the next two or more years specializing in a paticular area, working usually on a MS AND studying for board certification in their specialty AND conducting research. They will be the specialists you bring your horse to at regional hospitals. Nobody does a residency and gets board certified to be a road vet. Yes, their preceptors are even MORE highly trained/certified, and they will have a very active role in your horse's treatment, even if you never meet them. They work behind the scenes, supervising the resident, consulting with them, and generally watching them learn. Teaching hospitals like Dr Taylor said, are the highest rung on the ladder of hospitals. There is no better place to go! No other clinic will have more resources, more contacts, or more modalities available to them. None. There may be GREAT hospitals out there (and I've worked for/with several!) but when those hospitals run out of ideas, they go to VTH's. Even if your horse doesn't, their information and their case will be known at the VTH specializing in the area of your horse's issue.

And believe me! I've been on both sides of the fence. I spent close to $9,000 the year before last on my stallion. We started with my local vet (who is PHENOMINAL), moved up to Rood and Riddle (the second largest hospital in the country), and from there came close to going up to OSU for their CT machine (since the MRI at R&R didn't reveal what we were looking for). They charged me $200 to PULL MY HORSE'S SHOES!! And the answer we ended up getting was VERY much less than satisfactory.

And I'm sorry YOU don't feel this way, but the law and sue-happy people out there very much dictate that vets not step out on a limb when it comes to radical treatments they aren't comfortable or qualified to do. Will I throw away my career, my family's finances, and any hope of retirement, to step out on a limb and try something I'm not qualified to do on your horse, just because in the heat of the moment, you beg me and promise you won't sue? HECK NO!!! if there is a realistic chance, the vet is comfortable taking the risk, and the moon and stars are aligned correctly, it may work. But that is the exception, not the rule. The 2% of people who MEAN what you say are in the vast, vast minority.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 14, 2012)

Tagalong_As far as the choke situation goes - if that esophagus had ruptured I am wondering if you would be here complaining about the incompetence of that vet...

 That is a presumptuous  statement,, and borders on insulting, I have tried to be respectful of you,, and would appreciate the same in return 

As i have stated many times in this thread, NO I WOULD NEVER BE ANGRY WITH A VET THAT TRIED, ALL I EVER ASK IS FOR SOMEONE TO TRY!

I will never complain about a Vet who is willing to try, and give life a chance! EVER!If a Dr. thought running over my horse with a truck could possible save it,( just a figure of speech) i would be the first to start the engine, and step on the gas. 

I never complaine about a Dr. willing to try, only the ones that throw in the towel. I am sure when Dr. Schults saw that colt he considered _"Primo non nocere." __ ,__ it would have been easy for him to do nothing, He was going to get paid regardless_

But decided to try to save it, the colt was dieing anyway! I had nothing to loose but could gain everything.. And luckily i did.

_There is nothing to__ swallow__ - as no one is __feeding__ you anything. What Dr. Taylor and I said was a cold, hard fact. There are fates worth than being put down and avoiding undue pain and suffering that will never end. Would you care for more stories seeing as you seem to think it is a fairy tale? _



_ Tales about minis... tales about warmbloods... tales about draft horses. All of them sadly true. I have worked in the industry in assorted disciplines and breeds for a very long time - and I can assure you that there are fates worse than a gentle death. _

_Sorry I do not see death as a fairy tale, I see it as the final act, and once you end a life, there is no taking that back. I work in a hospital, and see some people, who should have died, live, and others who should have been fine die. Same with some of the animals i have had. I do not understand why some live that were so sick and others die that did not seem that bad off, that is why as long as they draw breath something can be done to help them. I do not believe in a gentle death. _

_AGAIN I WILL say loud and clear_

If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight! 

This is the way i feel about life in general, IT WILL NOT CHANGE!


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 14, 2012)

Nathan-Wait.... you complain about a $20 shot of banamine, but you want the vet to do something UNNESSESARY and bill you for it, knowing it would be entirely placebo if it worked?! Talk about a double standard!!

Aint no double standard,up in here! the whole bottle of Banamine cost 30.00 and they charged me that per dose, actually a little more i think. As far as B12, The Vet i use never has charged for that. 

Point is, DO SOMETHING, I do not call a Vet to kill an animal! Anyone can do that. I call him because i need him to do something productive for that animal.

Nathan with all these rescources, preceptors, contacts and Modalities, and all these people with the A) ability and b)the drive and the, VERY VERY VERY exclusive positions, and the .behind the scenes,people supervising the resident, consulting with them, and generally watching them, I would have thought someone could have kept me a little better informed. Maybe they were just behind the scene, and did not want to be on the scene.

One thing for sure about those " behind the scene people"They sure did keep my credit card informed LOL! 

I was able to get to talk with someone named Mike who worked there doing something,,might have been the janitor, not sure really, i know he was not a Dr. yet, but he was nice and tried to tell me as much as he knew how. 

I will not entertain appalling statements by Veterinarians, , Medical Doctors , my family , or my boyfriend, However i will entertain them here on this forum.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 14, 2012)

My vet used to charge a $15 injection fee, to cover the liability, cost of the training, syringes, and other expenses related to giving the shot. Then he charged 200% of the cost of the medicine in the injection. Funny thing is, it ended up costing the same as people who charge one fee for injections. However, that includes his professional time sitting there ready to react to a reaction, the training to treat said reaction, the materials involved in that, etc. What would you do if you gave an injection and the horse had a reaction to it? Call a vet? Too late! That's a risk ALL of us take every day, when we give injections. We gamble. The vet can actually DO something. You are also paying him for his evaluation of the animal, since you don't just walk up and inject and walk away. You do an assessment first. Heck, one vet I worked for gave a complete physical exam before giving annual vaccines, and was FIRM on the idea that it was the responsible thing to do pre-vaccination, and therefore the cost should be part of the vaccines. His charge for vaccines was competitive for the area. So you are paying for that assessment too. Oh, and you are also kicking in for the shipping for that injection, since pharmacudical companies rape us on shipping. And for the portion of his building that he uses to store the drugs. Wonder what that comes down to on a square foot basis?

You must not use vets very often... that's always been SOP in my experience. An injection of xylazine is $23, when a bottle is $25. Just the way it is. If you don't like it, spend the $300k for a vet med degree, IF you can get into one of the 20 schools in the country.

Oh, btw.... keeping you informed of what they are DOING is mandatory, but keeping you informed of the results is kinda hard, if there is nothing new to report! What would the doc do in a human hospital, if a patient kept asking for updates? Eventually, they'd avoid them like the plague. Doesn't mean they are ignoring you, just avoiding your constant question they can't answer. If you work in a hospital you should have more of an appreciation for it... it was pretty clear to me the first week I was working on a hospital floor. (Human hospital, but the same is true for vets)


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 14, 2012)

Nathan- You must not use vets very often..

I try to do what i can myself,, just basic stuff like preg checks,, general vaccines, uterine flushing,, giving pain medicine and stomach tubing mineral oil and those sorts of things. So Nathan you are correct, i am just not use to paying high prices for the Vet doing those things. And the cost that i paid in Virginia was the "norm". now i dont feel so bad about "kicking" in the extra. .Thank you for pointing that out.

First of all i doubt someone my age (42 SCARY TYPING THAT ONE!!) could get in Vet school, , my IQ is high enough, but i am not that devoted. It is extremely hard to get in , i knew this before it was pointed out in this thread, as i had a friend that tried, he could not get in, he went to Campbell, and now has a Doctorate in Pharmacy. When i have an Extra 300 thousand laying around and nothing to do with it, i will let all you guys know so ya'll can help me figure out how to spend it!

 . 

Nathan- Oh, btw.... keeping you informed of what they are DOING is mandatory, but keeping you informed of the results is kinda hard, if there is nothing new to report! What would the doc do in a human hospital, if a patient kept asking for updates? Eventually, they'd avoid them like the plague. Doesn't mean they are ignoring you, just avoiding your constant question they can't answer. If you work in a hospital you should have more of an appreciation for it... it was pretty clear to me the first week I was working on a hospital floor. (Human hospital, but the same is true for vets) 

 , Nathan, i think one of my biggest gripes with Virginia, was them NOT keeping me informed,, my attempt to speak with the person in charge, were not returned, just maybe an update now and then, would have alleviated my anxiety, Maybe just a call saying, "hey,,i saw your horse today, and this is what we are going to try and do for him, " And after you and Dr. Taylor explaining how great these Dr. there are, and all the resources they had, that phone call should have been done by them. 

Like i said, i did not walk away from that experience empty handed, i received some valuable education, Other than the belly tap, everything else i feel could have been done "in farm" and the horse would have been more comfortable at home, and i could have saved a good amount of cash. 



Nathan - If you work in a hospital you should have more of an appreciation for it... it was pretty clear to me the first week I was working on a hospital floor. (Human hospital, but the same is true for vets)

 I work part time in a hospital, and part time in a medical clinic (CardiologyIinternal medicine) I hope to never become a type of person to avoid patients, or their questions or concerns. They are important to me, and the Dr.s I have had the privilege of working with, i believe feel the same. I have seen upset family members, and when they were kept informed, they seemed less anxious. I hope i always treat people kindly and with respect, as well as their family members.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 14, 2012)

Preg checks, uterine flushes, stomach tubing, etc are NOT basic stuff and are not things that the average, or even above average, horse owner should be doing. You are taking large risks upon yourself. They are invasive procedures that should be done by a vet.


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## tagalong (Apr 14, 2012)

I have to agree with Nathan about that... ^ . Maybe minus the stomach tubing as I had to do that 3X a day for a gelding who had tansy poisoning and it was prohibitive for the vet to have to come and do it. Not to mention time consuming. He watched me do it a few times and then gave me the green light.

We learned how to palpate for preg checks back in school but I would not do it as a matter of course. I have done it on small mares in the past when we did palpations for preg checks and my hands were much smaller than the vet's - but only in his presence and under his direction.



> That is a presumptuous statement,, and borders on insulting, I have tried to be respectful of you,, and would appreciate the same in return


It was not meant to be insulting... not at all. Just part of the discussion. On the other hand, you have called us crazy, suggested we were endangering horses, shown complete disdain for our thoughts/opinions at times and made disparaging remarks about a lot of veterinary practices and professionals...





At least we helped you understand how a vet school/teaching hospital works. Your friend's comments to that vet were still completely inappropriate.

As far as Fates Worse Than Death...

A life lingering on in pain and distress with no hope whatsoever of recovery and a long slow slide downhill is *not* better than a quiet and caring release to relieve that horse from all that suffering.

Or even a life filled with chronic pain with no "quality of life"... like the mare in this video... (warning - graphic hoof issues)

http://youtu.be/YZxJnPZvz-8

******

Here is one way to quote something or make multiple quotes - that will make it easier for you...





Highlight what you want to quote in the original post and copy it. Paste it into the post you are making. Highlight it again and then click on the little cartoon talk "balloon" in the menu icon strip just above the posting box. It is the 7th one in from the right... or at least, that is how it looks on my Mac...



> And voila! A quote!


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## Joanne (Apr 14, 2012)

It is clear from these postings that we are all passionate about our horses, which is good.

I too feel that death is such a final step that it should be approached with the utmost respect and kindness it can be, and should be a last resort, as there is no going backwards.

Each horse owner has a great responsibility to care for their horses. This includes finding a competent equine veterinarian BEFORE we need them and using them on a regular basis so that communication lines remain open.

I see nothing wrong with brainstorming with the veterinarian, encouraging them to contact another veterinarian for insights, and going to a more advanced facility if needed. I have a bookcase filled with equine and veterinary books, however I depend on my competent equine veterinarian to perform the necessary tests and proceedures.

He knows that if I call him during a birth that I have already tried what I know and that I am unsuccessful, and need his advanced ability to help my mare.

My job is to keep the lines of communication open, to let him know that if we both cannot find a solution, that I am willing to move my horse to another facility in order to save the animal.

There are several large animal veterinarians in my area that I have no interest in taking care of my horses. I just do not feel comfortable with how they paractice. This is no different from choosing a pediatrician. Our horses cannot talk, they need us to find the best people we can to care for them when they are in need.

I treasure my equine veterinarian and want him to be part of my breeding program. His insights have been appreciated.

I would personally rather be in front of my horse comforting them the best I can and have the veterinarian be in the rear removing a foal. As I am often the first on the scene, I will do what I have to do to help my mare. Time is always a factor, and not always on our side.

As horse owners we should be striving to take the best care possible of our horses, and this includes providing excellent equine medical care when needed.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 14, 2012)

> Preg checks, uterine flushes, stomach tubing, etc are NOT basic stuff and are not things that the average, or even above average, horse owner should be doing. You are taking large risks upon yourself. They are invasive procedures that should be done by a vet.


found it!

When i bought my U/S machine from EI medical, I paid Dr. Shultz to come out and show me how to use it,( putting my hand in a mares rectum, how far to go in and such)	he spent about an hour and we did 5 minis that morning. He knew why i hired him to come out, and he sold me the Xylazine, and the Buscopam to use. I am sure he thought it was OK for me to do it, or would have refused teach me how.There are several farms that have their own U/S machines and use them regularly, and consider it pretty basic stuff, . I am no different, i will continue to do my own, and am pretty good at it.

As far as flushing mares. i learned from another Vet, I actually was shown how by him, and we used 3 of my own mares, 2 that had recently foaled, and one that i was having trouble getting in foal. He knew why i wanted to learn to do it, because i told him i wanted to do it myself instead of hauling mares to him to do it. He said if i was doing my own U/S that flushing that is should be easy for me. He was right! A cervical opening when a mare is in heat ,is not hard to find and i performed 2 of them in front of him, as he instructed me how to do it, the third one i did,on my own in front of him.. Uterine flushing is not hard, and i found is MUCH easier than AI,. AI you have to be so careful, seems like almost everything including water, and the rubber end of the syringe is spermicidal! But i did have a decent success rate..

*Tagalong___Stomach tubing--to me is MUCh harder, and i am much less confident in my ability, in fact i check recheck and check again to make sure i get it in the esophagus, and not in the airway. I blow into it to make sure the horse does not cough, i feel for it going down the side of its neck, and still worry! To me this is SOOOO much more dangerous!!!! and given the opportunity would prefer someone else to do it.. So i must dissagree with you about that, it is not easy. Doable, but not easy!*

*As far as uterine flushing, and U/S, .... that is basic everyday stuff around here, and has been for the last 7 years. It is easy and just part of my regular routine, *



> A life lingering on in pain and distress with no hope whatsoever of recovery and a long slow slide downhill is *not* better than a quiet and caring release to relieve that horse from all that suffering.


When you kill something, That is the big *finale*, *aint no take'in back!* It should NEVER be a comfortable thing to do. Certainly not because Dr. is not comfortable in using a fetatone!!!! performing CPR would definitely put me out of my comfort zone, but if someone coded and was dieing in front of me, i would dang sure try! , I am sure you and Nathan, and Dr. Taylor would too!!!! *Sometimes stepping out of our "comfort zone" is of paramount importance to life. *

 Again, If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight! 

This is the way i feel about life in general, IT WILL NOT CHANGE! I expect my Vet to do/try something, and thank goodness he does, sometimes it works sometimes it fails. Either way he is my hero, because he tried. 

I can appreciate your comment about "quality of life," i fully understand what that means, but who determines that?. What i consider "quality of life". may be different than how you see."quality of life." So who would be right, you or me?.


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## tagalong (Apr 14, 2012)

> I can appreciate your comment about "quality of life," i fully understand what that means, but who determines that?. What i consider "quality of life". may be different than how you see."quality of life." So who would be right, you or me?.


Do you think that mare walking on the front of her coronary bands in that video was going to have quality of life? That was unfixable by that point. Her life must have been one long, agonizing test of endurance. Read the comments on that vid - many people thought it was unfair to put her down. What did they think could have been done? No farrier could have set her right.

Quality of life = able to be a horse. Maybe not gallop and buck and run and play - but have a life free of pain. Enjoy the sun. Move around somewhat freely. Graze/eat. Socialize.

I am not sure where you seem to have gotten the notion that Nathan, Dr. Taylor or I would advocate taking the "easy" or "convenient" way out as you seem to imply - as that is not what we have been saying. Of course you try what you can - but at some point you need to take a step back and see the big picture.

I treated that gelding with tansy poisoning for many weeks. I tubed him 3 times a day - actually, I just looked it up and it was 4 times a day. I fussed and fretted over him as the weight melted off him despite my best efforts. And in the end, he went through a devastating, HORRIFIC final night_ that should not have happened._ I would not wish what he went through that night on any horse. And I could have spared him that distress if I had not "fought" so hard for him - knowing that there really was no hope. To this day, I am disappointed in myself that I put him through that _when it was not necessary._ *Shame. On. Me.* _First, do no harm._ Our vet supported me in my decision but knew it was a losing battle and advised against it. But it was my choice, not his. I had to try, right? Wrong. In the end, I failed that horse.

If I ever have to deal with a horse with that diagnosis again, I will not fail him/her. I will spare them what I know will come. There is no quality of life there, either. And the end of the story cannot be changed no matter how hard you fight.



> So i must dissagree with you about that, it is not easy. Doable, but not easy!


I do not think I EVER said it was easy - far from it. Not at all. I just said it was the only procedure you listed that I have done extensively.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 15, 2012)

Wow... I'm quite shocked those vets taught you. They can be in a WORLD of trouble if something happened. I've palpated and ultrasounded through the university when I was teaching vet students and working on my MS, and after seeing what can go wrong, and how careful those instructors were, I'm very shocked. They were reluctant to teach me, and I never did do enough to be truly comfortable and competent. That takes months/years and hundreds of mares a month. I only did a few dozen.

Flushes are pretty easy, if done vaginally. Not much different than AI. So I can KINDA see a vet showing someone how.

Tubing can be deadly in the wrong hands. One oops, one forgetting to verify location, and you'll drown your horse in seconds. Or, cause a lingering death through aspiration pnumonia.

Anyone who gets so comfortable with these tasks that they forget how dangerous and deadly they are needs to take a step back and think about it for a while, and get a new respect for the VERY invasive procedures they are doing. One oops and you've taken a life, and NOT the humane, controlled way of euthanasia.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 15, 2012)

> Do you think that mare walking on the front of her coronary bands in that video was going to have quality of life? That was unfixable by that point. Her life must have been one long, agonizing test of endurance. Read the comments on that vid - many people thought it was unfair to put her down. What did they think could have been done? No farrier could have set her right.


I really have little knowledge of hoof issues, have a gelding with a 6 degree coffin bone rotation from founder, We got him going sound again, but that is really my extent of my knowledge of lameness issues. I dont have speakers that work on my computer, so i will view it later today when i have access to a computer that does. I just dont know 'bout all that hoof stuff..

I do not even know what Tansy poisoning is, but i will look it up. I am sure the Vet you used thought there was hope for this gelding, or he would not have instructed you to do this tubing of the stomach, I am sure that you did what you could, _*you tried . You stepped out of your comfort zone, as stated when you said it was not easy, and you tried to save the animal. *_



> I am disappointed in myself that I put him through that _when it was not necessary._ *Shame. On. Me.*


I do not think stomach tubing is that painful for an animal, i am not sure as i have never had this done to me, but the animals i have seen done, and i have done this on, do not seem in extreme pain, a little uncomfortable as the tube is inserted, but not in extreme pain..

The only reason you "failed" if because you tried! THERE IS NO SHAME IN TRYING. .

I do not consider what you did as failure, only outcome was not in your favor. , some animals that that seem soooo sick, somehow recover, even when there is very little hope, , and some that seem not really that bad off,take a turn for the worse, regardless of care. I do not understand why this happens,but i have seem it several times.

*Therefor, i must ask my Vet as well as myself to try anything, and everything to preserve life. If there is any way possible to give life a chance, i am willing to give it a shot. I do not want any animal, or me for that matter, to go down without a fight! As long as they are alive there is something that can be done for them! .* ,



> If I ever have to deal with a horse with that diagnosis again, I will not fail him/her


sometimes diagnosis can be wrong, even by the best Vets, and medical Dr.'s, please give this consideration before making any life changing decisions.


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## tagalong (Apr 15, 2012)

> I do not think stomach tubing is that painful for an animal, i am not sure as i have never had this done to me, but the animals i have seen done, and i have done this on, do not seem in extreme pain, a little uncomfortable as the tube is inserted, but not in extreme pain..


I was not referring to the tubing causing him any pain (it didn't) - but the poisoning itself in the final hours. No, the vet did not think there was any chance and worried that the outcome would be horrific at the end - and he was right. There really was no hope - and I just prolonged the inevitable and made the ending much worse. And I will NEVER put a horse through that again should a similar situation arise (not likely to happen but never say never).

*Nathan* - I only ended up tubing him (the vet suggested it) as to have the vet come back 4 times a day was impractical - and I had done it before in specific situations. I made him check my technique out thoroughly and he was confident I would have no issues with the tubing - and I was very careful and did not have any problems. He supplied the tubing and syringe etc.

But in hindsight it would have been far better for that horse to have put him down when the diagnosis pointed out that he was on a one way street, slowly running downhill.

I did fail him - it was my job to care for him and make sure he was free of pain and safe and comfortable - and in the end, I could do none of that.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 15, 2012)

> Wow... I'm quite shocked those vets taught you. They can be in a WORLD of trouble if something happened. I've palpated and ultrasounded through the university when I was teaching vet students and working on my MS, and after seeing what can go wrong, and how careful those instructors were, I'm very shocked. They were reluctant to teach me, and I never did do enough to be truly comfortable and competent. That takes months/years and hundreds of mares a month. I only did a few dozen.


He must have thought there was little liability, if he was willing to teach me. There are many many farms that do their own U/S, and several miniature horse farm breeders that i am aware of, do them. Several Mini horse dispersal sales have listed U/S in the auction, so i feel they did most likely use them on the animals. Tony Greaves at Little America, bought his from his Vet when his Vet updated, i talked with him at a sale one time "Eastern Classic i think, the one Ronnie Clifton put on years ago. That was when i was considering purchasing one. I am pretty sure Pacific pintos do their own as well, unless Joanne changed her program. She really has top of the line animals, top notch in my book. D'Armond minis did all their own as well. These are just a couple of mini farms that i can think of off the top of my head, i am sure there are many more Nathan.

Its just not cost effective to have a Vet do them, when you are doing 30-50 a year sometimes more. I have never had any problems with horses i have U/S. As long as you use reasonable precautions, it is really pretty simple.



> Tubing can be deadly in the wrong hands. One oops, one forgetting to verify location, and you'll drown your horse in seconds. Or, cause a lingering death through aspiration pnumonia.


Oh I agree!!!!! Believe me i thought about that EVERY time i have done it!!!!

I used to use an aquaruim tube on my mini foals, and would tube about 4oz of colostrum when they were first born( because i was tired and it was usually the middle of the night when they were born and i wanted to go back home and go to sleep. I did it for years on over a hundred or more foals , and never had any problem with it. But on an adult animal with such a big tube it makes me a bit more nervous.



> Anyone who gets so comfortable with these tasks that they forget how dangerous and deadly they are needs to take a step back and think about it for a while, and get a new respect for the VERY invasive procedures they are doing. One oops and you've taken a life, and NOT the humane, controlled way of euthanasia.


I whole heartedly agree with that statement!!!!I except with the euthanasia part, think about the consequences every time i do something,.

Flushes are pretty easy, if done vaginally. Not much different than AI. So I can KINDA see a vet showing someone how.

Is there another way of getting to the cervix to insert the pipet other than through the Vagina? I am pretty sure that the cervix is the only opening to the uterus through when a flush can be done? Nathan please explain the other method.

I have gone to a couple of (awesome) seminars that were put on the University of Colorado, it has been about 7 years ago,, and was held in Pinehurst NC., and was right before i bought my own U/S., They were assuming everyone that attended was already U/S and collecting stallions, and performing AI, everyone there was, except for me! It was expensive to attend, about 30 people were there, half Veterinarians, half barn managers.like myself., I was sitting beside a Veterinarian, when she ask a question (the same one i was thinking about and too afraid to ask) I looked over and said to her i was wondering about that too! She said i am sure we were not the only ones! That was when i learned that so many farms, and farm managers were already _*WAY *_ahead of me, and i better "bust a move" or i was gonna be eating their dust! 

 I think i will try learning embryo transfers next week!!! LOL!!!! just a joke !!!!


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 15, 2012)

> Do you think that mare walking on the front of her coronary bands in that video was going to have quality of life? That was unfixable by that point. Her life must have been one long, agonizing test of endurance. Read the comments on that vid - many people thought it was unfair to put her down. What did they think could have been done? No farrier could have set her right.


Horrible! certainly did not look very promising, but again i am not a farrier, and really do not know that much about lameness. I do not understand how her back hooves even grew that way! they should have curled up, not under. I do not know enough to make a judgement in that case. I am sure it would have not been cost effective to try to feed and salvage that animal, but she was standing and walking, and if it were possible to have ask her if she wanted to live that way or die, i am not sure what her response would have been. Bad situation, glad the person at fault was "nailed."



> I did fail him - it was my job to care for him and make sure he was free of pain and safe and comfortable - and in the end, I could do none of that.


No you did not!, you did what you thought was best in that moment, you gave it your best shot, you did everything for that life you could! You attempted to preserve life, and that is admirable by anyone's standards!

*Life is not always free of pain, its not always safe, and is certainly not always comfortable, But life is always valuable! ALWAYS!*

I will agree with you on the fact that life is more than just drawing breath. That is actually a quote by the big "_*E*_" (Elvis Pressley)

However there is no gentle death, and humane euthanasia does not exist, because if it were so humane (definition is) 

characterized by kindness, mercy, sympathy, etc.
​
 inflicting as little pain as possible, 
​
we would be doing it to humans, as human life is more valuable than an animals, and last i heard euthanasia for humans, although advocated by some, is somewhat still frowned upon by most in the Health Care community.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 15, 2012)

Nathan-



> Wow... I'm quite shocked those vets taught you. They can be in a WORLD of trouble if something happened.


I spoke with Dr. Shultz( the Vet who taught me) and he said that U/S was common knowledge, and as long as i was only doing my own animals, he did not see a problem, and that he does work for a couple of other farms that do their own as well.

_*Not having an Ultrasound machine at a breeding farm, is kinda like having a kitchen with no stove*_, yes its possible but not very convenient.


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## Minimor (Apr 15, 2012)

> However there is no gentle death, and humane euthanasia does not exist, because if it were so humane (definition is) characterized by kindness, mercy, sympathy, etc.
> 
> inflicting as little pain as possible, we would be doing it to humans, as human life is more valuable than an animals, and last i heard euthanasia for humans, although advocated by some, is somewhat still frowned upon by most in the Health Care community.


I believe that in actual fact there are other reasons why euthanasia for people is not an acceptable thing. In people the reasons are nothing to do with whether or not euthanasia is kind/ merciful/etc.


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## Minimor (Apr 15, 2012)

Sorry, had to make two posts--easier that editing the first one!

Do you not ever believe in euthanasia for your horses or other animals? no matter what is wrong you just "keep trying" until the animal is gone, however long that may take or however much the animal may suffer before it dies?

So a horse is ripped up by a pack of dogs or a bear....or it's been hit by a car & has its pelvis shattered...or the dystocia is so bad that the foal absolutely isn't coming out and when the vet tries to cut the dead foal into pieces the mare gets torn up worse--her uterous is ruptured or her intestines are coming out with the foal--you still wouldn't call it beyond hope and request euthanasia?

Allowing an animal to suffer beyond a certain point is incomprehensible to me. Incomprehensible and inexcusable.

Tagalong--I know exactly what you mean, about failing the animal by trying too long to save it. There has been a time or two when I have wished that I had made that final decision a little bit sooner than I did. What is that saying? Something to the effect of "better an hour too soon than a moment too late" ? I agree completely.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 15, 2012)

inhumane euthanasia is an oxymoron, given the definition of euthanasia is "a good death".

Human euthanasia is illegal, not necessarily immoral. That is a debate suited to another forum.

Yes, you can do a uterine flush via the rectal route (of course the tube is inserted vaginally). That is invasive, the layman's intravaginal version is not.

There are plenty of farms that do their own ultrasounding. They do tons, and they accept that they will loose a few. They also have full time staff who do it all the time, and vets on standby. In the state of Texas, it is legal to palpate any horse, as long as you don't charge for it. None of this changes the fact its an invasive procedure, or that it is without significant risk. Its best left to the professionals, who receive in depth training, and (most importantly) can address and handle the consequences if something goes wrong. A single afternoon is NOT enough training.


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## tagalong (Apr 15, 2012)

> I used to use an aquaruim tube on my mini foals, and would tube about 4oz of colostrum when they were first born( because i was tired and it was usually the middle of the night when they were born and i wanted to go back home and go to sleep.



I have to disagree with that practice.






I would not want to tube a newborn. Why put them through that just for convenience? I milk the mare out a bit and use a 3 cc syringe to carefully feed the foal small amounts while it sucks on my gloved finger. No tubing needed. And no, I do not tip their heads back and they have never aspirated anything. That way I know they have had a jump start and have some gas in the tank to get on with nursing, pooping, peeing etc. Tubing them seems a bit invasive and unnecessary.

I have worked on a variety of farms and foaled out different breeds... and I have never seen anyone - even at the state of the art Thoroughbred farm where some babies were worth $100,000 the minute they hit the ground - tube foals as part of standard operating procedure. Unless they were unable to nurse or had major health issues....


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 15, 2012)

> Do you not ever believe in euthanasia for your horses or other animals? no matter what is wrong you just "keep trying" until the animal is gone, however long that may take or however much the animal may suffer before it dies?


Minimoor I have given it much thought since this thread started. intestines coming out with the foal, that is never survivable, yes bullet to the head (not the shot)

Once any vet knows the Uterus is torn , they always will stop trying to salvage anything at that point, its futile.



> So a horse is ripped up by a pack of dogs or a bear....


really depends on the severity of attack, most likely if the attack was that bad, i would not have to make that decision, it would happen rather quickly if they were loosing that much blood. If they were not bleeding to death (which would take only minutes), i would opt for stitches and antibiotics to attempt to salvage life.



> .or it's been hit by a car & has its pelvis shattered.


 Of course a bullet to the head(not the shot)I guess what i am saying is something obvious, such as you described in these scenarios, broken pelvis, torn uterus, absolutely no possibility of survival, and pretty much these things would resolve fairly quickly on their own anyway, but yes a bullet to the head would be acceptable to me.

But Minimoor if there is the slimmest chance no matter how far fetched it is, even the most faint of hope, i will decide to treat, and give life a chance.



> Allowing an animal to suffer beyond a certain point is incomprehensible to me. Incomprehensible and inexcusable.


I understand this statement, however my "certain point" and your "certain point" can be extremely different. What you consider inexcusable and i consider inexcusable may not be the same either, so....... who is right me or you???? Maybe we are both right, maybe we are both wrong.

Again, If the Vet thought anything they could try would give the slightest hope of life, please try it, no matter how far fetched, or how hopeless the situation seemed. I never want one of my animals (or myself for that matter) to go down without a fight!


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 15, 2012)

> I have worked on a variety of farms and foaled out different breeds... and I have never seen anyone - even at the state of the art Thoroughbred farm where some babies were worth $100,000 the minute they hit the ground - tube foals as part of standard operating procedure. Unless they were unable to nurse or had major health issues....


I stopped doing it this year, but i did it with good success for years on hundreds of foals, no problems encountered, I also used to wash the mare in anti bacterial soap before she gave birth, but i stopped doing that too,, guess i am getting lazy in my old age.

I have been spoke with a farm in Ky that does it on their foals, but they tube a colostrum supplement, and some of the mares colostrum as well, they try to get it done before the foal even stands. They also wash the mare immediately_* after*_ she foals in antibacterial soap, and plenty of water, they do this before the foal trys to find the udder, they say it cuts down of septicemia, most likely it does, but is not feasible for me since i am the only one working at my farm.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 15, 2012)

Nathan



> Yes, you can do a uterine flush via the rectal route


but how does the flush fluid get into the uterus???


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## Sandy B (Apr 16, 2012)

I know of a vet in Southern California that offers multiple courses for everything to do with breeding, from Mare & Stallion Management, to ultrasounds, to embryo transfers. It features classroom and lab sessions then hands on. You can check it out here at www.thebreedersassistant.com


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## Wings (Apr 16, 2012)

The last horse I put down was my beautiful and well loved 23 year old TB. I found him in the morning exhausted and in pain from colic. But he got to his feet when I asked and there was life in his eyes. My vet and I fought for that horse for as long as he would fight.

In the end we were faced with a 5 to 10% chances of surviving the surgery (at best) and we could both tell he wanted to go. The life was gone and his body was on the way out.

Should I have forced that horse onto a float and have him possibly die on the way or in a strange place? Or on the operating table?

When we fight for these animals we should be fighting for THEM and not ourselves. As long as that horse would fight my vet and I were there to help. But when it was time to let him go we were brave enough to let him. It is what we owe them.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 16, 2012)

Wings said:


> The last horse I put down was my beautiful and well loved 23 year old TB. I found him in the morning exhausted and in pain from colic. But he got to his feet when I asked and there was life in his eyes. My vet and I fought for that horse for as long as he would fight.
> 
> In the end we were faced with a 5 to 10% chances of surviving the surgery (at best) and we could both tell he wanted to go. The life was gone and his body was on the way out.
> 
> ...



This^^^^. My Arabian colicked badly. The vet examined him, and determined _she _couldn't do anything for him. This was a lady who would fight tooth and nail if you asked her. We could take him to Ohio State- a three and a half hour trailer ride. He didn't like trailering on a good day, let alone one when he was in agony. I have _never_ seen an animal in such pain. And the look on his face..... "Mom, make it go away..."

And we did. he passed peacefully, surrounded by the people he loved.

Could I have gone further? Yes, but at his expense. He was already checking out, I could see it. Why end his last hours with such horror. It was for HIS sake I let him go, not mine. It would have been incredibly selfish to take him to the university. He was my first horse and I loved him more than almost anything in the world.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 16, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> Nathan
> 
> but how does the flush fluid get into the uterus???


Read the whole sentince...

"Yes, you can do a uterine flush via the rectal route (of course the tube is inserted vaginally). That is invasive, the layman's intravaginal version is not."

Normally the tube is inserted vaginally, the balloon inflated, then the hand removed and inserted rectally. Fluids are run through, uterous is massaged, then emptied (via the rectal hand). Then the balloon deflated.

That is how a flush is normally done. A layman can do it only through the vaginal route, but it is not as good. The whole point of flushing is to remove debris and fluids. If you leave fluid in, as is normal with a vaginal-only method, you haven't improved the situation as much as you could by removing all the fluid (via trans-rectal massage)


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 16, 2012)

> That is how a flush is normally done. A layman can do it only through the vaginal route, but it is not as good. The whole point of flushing is to remove debris and fluids. If you leave fluid in, as is normal with a vaginal-only method, you haven't improved the situation as much as you could by removing all the fluid (via trans-rectal massage)


I did not know this, I never seen it done that way., I have never seen Dr.Blackwelder, or his son Travis who is usually the one in the office as his Dad is semi retired now, or Dr. Shultz do it that way, they always did it the way i do it, They clean the mares back end area off, use a sterile glove, and and cup there fingers around the ppet and insert their cupped hand and with the middle finger find the cervix and then run the pipet right under the middle finger that is sticking slightly into the cervix, about an inch or two past the middle finger, depress the plunger, and if it does not flow easily, back it up a smidge, as you are against the uterine wall, and push the flush fluid in through the pipet the fluid usually consist of 120 cc of sterile water, mixed with about 5-10 cc of penn, and i always use Amikacin about 2 cc (Gentamycin if I dont happen to have any Amikacin , and i am *feeling cheap.*) I will after that, withdraw the pipet, but i try to hold the cervix closed for about a minute or so, so the fluid stays in longer. There is always some backwash of the mixture afterwards. Dr. Black welder said the antibiotic sort of adhered to the uterine wall and was active for about 48 hours, and (sterile water) also would irritate the lining so new cells would form, something i think he said nutriphils, i do not even know how to spell that word, and that may have *NOT* been the right term for those new cells.

The way you described makes sense, and i will ask both of them why they do not do it the way you described..

The way i have been doing _*seems*_ to be very effective, and i have had great success with mares that other people considered non breeders. But again, Nathan, if there is a better way, _*then i want to know about it*_, *EXCELLENCE--Nothing less !* . .


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 16, 2012)

> know of a vet in Southern California that offers multiple courses for everything to do with breeding, from Mare & Stallion Management, to ultrasounds, to embryo transfers. It features classroom and lab sessions then hands on. You can check it out here at www.thebreedersassistant.com


OMG ! That is very similar to the one i took in Pinehurst, The one i took was talking embryo transfers like it was no biggie either, I guess barn managers *are* really do embryo transfers with an 82% success rate!!!!! They are now doing non surgical transfers!!!! When did this happen??

*I was just joking about learning to do embryo transfers, but, hey..... it might not be out of the question! *

Apparently other non Vets are routinly doing it now! And there is a Vet willing to show them how!!!! I am familiar with AI and cooled/ frozen semen, and i am certainly familiar with an U/S,. *Price for the workshop is good!* I think i paid around 750.0 for the one i took, it was 5 days.

They are teaching equine U/S , embryo transfers, and flushing!!!!! And a bunch of other amazing stuff too!!!!!!

Nathan. you said my Vet could get in trouble teaching me how to U/S and flush, this Vet is not only willing to teach these things, but a bunch of other "invasive" procedures as well! *and advertises that he will do it!* You do _*not *_have to be a Vet to take these courses, You only need to have previous breeding experience(which i have plenty of) and I am already doing some of these things. Shame on you for saying that i am not competent enough to be doing these things, I have done them, and _*I have been successful!*_ In the future i will become even better at it! I am going to learn new things new ways of doing them, and strive to be the best i can be at equine reproduction management. Nathan- other people are doing it, and i can too! I am capable, i will learn, and i will succeed!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 16, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> I did not know this, I never seen it done that way., I have never seen Dr.Blackwelder, or his son Travis who is usually the one in the office as his Dad is semi retired now, or Dr. Shultz do it that way, they always did it the way i do it, They clean the mares back end area off, use a sterile glove, and and cup there fingers around the ppet and insert their cupped hand and with the middle finger find the cervix and then run the pipet right under the middle finger that is sticking slightly into the cervix, about an inch or two past the middle finger, depress the plunger, and if it does not flow easily, back it up a smidge, as you are against the uterine wall, and push the flush fluid in through the pipet the fluid usually consist of 120 cc of sterile water, mixed with about 5-10 cc of penn, and i always use Amikacin about 2 cc (Gentamycin if I dont happen to have any Amikacin , and i am *feeling cheap.*) I will after that, withdraw the pipet, but i try to hold the cervix closed for about a minute or so, so the fluid stays in longer. There is always some backwash of the mixture afterwards. Dr. Black welder said the antibiotic sort of adhered to the uterine wall and was active for about 48 hours, and (sterile water) also would irritate the lining so new cells would form, something i think he said nutriphils, i do not even know how to spell that word, and that may have *NOT* been the right term for those new cells.
> 
> The way you described makes sense, and i will ask both of them why they do not do it the way you described..
> 
> The way i have been doing _*seems*_ to be very effective, and i have had great success with mares that other people considered non breeders. But again, Nathan, if there is a better way, _*then i want to know about it*_, *EXCELLENCE--Nothing less !* . .


That's not a flush, that's an infusion. Same thing as artificial insemination. Totally different purpose.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 16, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> OMG ! That is very similar to the one i took in Pinehurst, The one i took was talking embryo transfers like it was no biggie either, I guess barn managers *are* really do embryo transfers with an 82% success rate!!!!! They are now doing non surgical transfers!!!! When did this happen??
> 
> *I was just joking about learning to do embryo transfers, but, hey..... it might not be out of the question! *
> 
> ...


Some people will do anything to earn a buck. That does NOT make it right, or okay. I just hope you only risk your own horses with this, and not other people's.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 16, 2012)

> Some people will do anything to earn a buck. That does NOT make it right, or okay. I just hope you only risk your own horses with this, and not other people's.


I only work on my horses, even _*if*_ i was willing to do someone elses, i would never have the time! I am running my farm at full capacity, with diligence and *most importantly SUCCESS! *

I had 34 breeding age mares last year, 32 US if foal , 30 live foals, 29 reached sell able age. Ask any Veterinarian, or professional equine breeder ( of any breed) what they think of those stats. I must be do'in someth'in right!!!

I think what these seminars are teaching is wonderful, educational, and 100% legal and right, and it cost a whole lot more than just a buck.



> That's not a flush, that's an infusion. Same thing as artificial insemination. Totally different purpose.


Veterinarians around these parts call it a flush, and it seems to be very effective at getting problem mares in foal, but again, i just kinda go with what works.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 16, 2012)

When you flush out a bottle of milk before putting it in the recycling, do you put a bunch of stuff in it, then throw it in the bin? Or do you put some water in, rinse it around, and empty it out?


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 16, 2012)

> When you flush out a bottle of milk before putting it in the recycling, do you put a bunch of stuff in it, then throw it in the bin? Or do you put some water in, rinse it around, and empty it out?


As previously stated, , i get your point, which is why i am waiting on a call from the two Vets. But i will state again, the flush my Vets use, which is the one i use_* IS*_ effective. It does work. There is quite a bit of fluid that does come back out.with the flush i use. Some mares do have a problem clearing after breeding. which is why sometimes it is good to flush them right after they finish the breeding cycle, This has not been the problem with most of the sub fertile mares i have tried getting in foal. Usually it is some sort of infection, most likely strep, as it accounts for about 80% of all uterine infections in mares.

120 cc of sterile water, 5-10cc of Penn, and 2cc of Amikacin, seems to work like a charm. IF there is a more effective way, i will do it.


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## albahurst (Apr 16, 2012)

Llil Hoofbeats- My equine vet uses a flush that is awesome! An equine repro specialist in TX developed this particular flush mix and taught it to my vet some years ago. A bit different than yours, so if you want to know what we have used, please PM me.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 17, 2012)

You are missing my point... its an apple and an orange. Sometimes you need an orange, sometimes you need an apple. But when you're describing a red crisp fruit, its an apple, not an orange. I'm doing more harm than good here... now you are doing MORE stuff that I feel you shouldn't. So I'm not going to be saying anything more about procedures layman shouldn't be doing, cuz you're just adding them to your repatoir!


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 17, 2012)

I did talk with the Vet he said, that with the amount of fluid i am putting in, there would be enough coming out to help clear the debris, if there was any there. He said about 1/2 a cc of oxytocin would clear the fluid better than trying to squeeze it out with your hand. He said he wanted that antibiotic to stay in there and cover the lining of the uterus.

He also stated, that if a mare was having a problem clearing debris after being covered, that a shot of oxytocin 1/2 cc about 4 hours after covering her would help with this because after 4 hours, the semen should already be in the tubes where conception takes place.

He also stated to not cover her, or AI her more than one time in any 48 hour period because after she is covered, there is an inflammatory response that happens in her uterus.

The mares uterus sees the semen as a foreign material, and sends out special cells to try to get rid of it thus creating debris, *an easily understandable example of this same type response, would be what happens when you get a splinter, it becomes red and irritated because your body is trying to get rid of it! *

Lil Hoofbeats Farm is operating at full capacity, and showing a profit. If i called a Vet to come out everytime i needed an U/S or a flush, or colostrum tubed to a foal, or IV fluid run, i would go broke, my farm would fail, and i would no longer be in business, (just like many other farms that have dispersed)

What sets me apart from farms that have gone under, is my ability to learn new things, diligence, and an ability to perform correctly what i have been taught. By doing this, i will stay afloat in this time of economic crunch. _*Its just the way i roll! *_

Nathan, layman are doing these procedures safely, effectively and with great success, U/S flushing, tubing, and _now_ apparently embryo transfer are common practice by equine reproduction managers.

I hope to continue to add to my repatoir , as i hope everyone on this forum does!

Remember *you* are the only one that sets your limits. These procedures *can* be safely performed by you. If you choose to learn, the education is available, and there are people ( and Veterinarians) willing to help you every step of the way.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 17, 2012)

Tagalong, and Minimoor, i guess with a uterine tear, or an obvious broken bone, ( but it would have to be something causing extreme pain and completely no chance of putting it back together again such as intestines coming out, or a bone sticking out) I would have the animal killed, with a bullet to the brain performed *only* by my Father. I would have to know the person performing this final act has compassion, and understands fully the value of life.

Tagalong,_serimmune that is the colostrum supplement they use, they say it cost around 100.00 bucks or so, they swear by it and say they tube it to every foal and have been for the past 5 years! _ 

*Life is not always free of pain, its not always safe, and is certainly not always comfortable, But life is always valuable! And should be given great respect.*


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## Sandy B (Apr 17, 2012)

MANY large breeding farms (large horse) handle almost all their own reproduction needs. I can say of those 50% do their own US, the remainder do have their vets US. Many more are learning to do it themselves though. While I am on the fence about do it yourself US, I know for a fact that many once taught would be pretty good at it. I do also believe that some people are much more natural at learning such vet skills. I can tell you that you can not ultrasound 5 horses a year and call yourself an expert. It takes 100's of horses and many years to get really good. There is always a risk of doing US on ANY horse and common sense and knowing the horse personally lowers the risk IMO. I have seen well known breeding vets US mares like they were going in to grab a red bag foal (although rectally). There was no gentleness about it. It was crud and an assembly line affect as if it were a timed event. To me this is worse that an owner cautiously and gently inch by inch (as most do it yourselfers do) US their own mares. And IMO.... NO ONE should be allowed to US any horse but their own, unless you are a vet.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 17, 2012)

Having worked WITH and FOR a large number of large breeding farms, I can say that NONE of them did their own US/palpations. They did a LOT of their own work, but NOT traditional vet tasks. And having interviewed for many more dozen large breeding farm positions as breeding manager, ONE of them did their own palpations. So one out of 50+ in a cross-country field, doesn't really add up to half, in my experience.

As far as the colostrum, I've seen it used before, and NONE of the people who were doing it had ANYTHING good to say about it. Usually its a last ditch effort, can't afford the correct treatment. Never seen a farm routinely use it, mostly because its almost useless. Those who give every foal a boost, give that boost with IV plasma, not oral solutions. THAT is done on lots of farms. But its $500+ per treatment, so its only the farms that can afford that. But none that I know of, here in Lou/Lexington KY, horse and thoroughbred capital of the world, do anything but plasma. Including the two TB farms I personal work at.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 17, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> Remember *you* are the only one that sets your limits. These procedures *can* be safely performed by you. If you choose to learn, the education is available, and there are people ( and Veterinarians) willing to help you every step of the way.


Yes, I know exactly what your vet is saying. I know what an infusion is and why its done. And no, there are not a huge number of people or vets who are willing to teach this, there is a very small minority (for the reasons I've stated again and again). No vet near me, and there are hundreds, would teach these things to someone they didn't DEEPLY trust. Like I said, there are a few vets out there that will do anything to make a buck, and if that means violating the community opinion, and state law in some cases, they will.

I choose to learn, that's why I have an MS in reproductive phys from one of the top repro schools in the country. I can and do many of the procedures mentioned, including the rare ET. I, however, believe (as does the school I went to) that these things are NOT to be preformed by the general public, without specific, in depth, education in not only the procedure, but everything that is effected by what you are doing. I spent 18 months learning physiology and all about the inflammatory response you are talking about. There is a reason hospitals are starting to not hire RN's anymore, and are heading to BSN or MSN prepared RN's instead. Certification is no longer the standard... more in-depth education is the requirement. Same for horses, in my opinion.


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## Sandy B (Apr 17, 2012)

Sandy B said:


> MANY large breeding farms (large horse) handle almost all their own reproduction needs. I can say of those 50% do their own US, the remainder do have their vets US. Many more are learning to do it themselves though. While I am on the fence about do it yourself US, I know for a fact that many once taught would be pretty good at it. I do also believe that some people are much more natural at learning such vet skills. I can tell you that you can not ultrasound 5 horses a year and call yourself an expert. It takes 100's of horses and many years to get really good. There is always a risk of doing US on ANY horse and common sense and knowing the horse personally lowers the risk IMO. I have seen well known breeding vets US mares like they were going in to grab a red bag foal (although rectally). There was no gentleness about it. It was crud and an assembly line affect as if it were a timed event. To me this is worse that an owner cautiously and gently inch by inch (as most do it yourselfers do) US their own mares. And IMO.... NO ONE should be allowed to US any horse but their own, unless you are a vet.
> 
> Perhaps I should clarify my statement about a "large number of breeding farms"- what I meant to say is a large number of private breeding farms. It is not like a breeding manager US customers horses. I am not sure that is legal to do unless given permission and nothing is charged.





Nathan Luszcz said:


> Having worked WITH and FOR a large number of large breeding farms, I can say that NONE of them did their own US/palpations. They did a LOT of their own work, but NOT traditional vet tasks. And having interviewed for many more dozen large breeding farm positions as breeding manager, ONE of them did their own palpations. So one out of 50+ in a cross-country field, doesn't really add up to half, in my experience.
> 
> This is "your" experience Nathan and mine is mine.
> 
> ...





Nathan Luszcz said:


> Yes, I know exactly what your vet is saying. I know what an infusion is and why its done. And no, there are not a huge number of people or vets who are willing to teach this, there is a very small minority (for the reasons I've stated again and again). No vet near me, and there are hundreds, would teach these things to someone they didn't DEEPLY trust. Like I said, there are a few vets out there that will do anything to make a buck, and if that means violating the community opinion, and state law in some cases, they will.
> 
> I choose to learn, that's why I have an MS in reproductive phys from one of the top repro schools in the country. I can and do many of the procedures mentioned, including the rare ET. I, however, believe (as does the school I went to) that these things are NOT to be preformed by the general public, without specific, in depth, education in not only the procedure, but everything that is effected by what you are doing. I spent 18 months learning physiology and all about the inflammatory response you are talking about. There is a reason hospitals are starting to not hire RN's anymore, and are heading to BSN or MSN prepared RN's instead. Certification is no longer the standard... more in-depth education is the requirement. Same for horses, in my opinion.


Kudos for you and your education, but nothing teaches you like years and years of handling all aspects of a breeding farm. Many vets will tell you that breeding farm managers have more hands on experience than they do in every aspect when it comes to breeding, foaling and repro care, because the breeding manager lives it daily, 24/7, and most vets do not. Yes, while there are some repro vets that only do repro and foals, the majority do not. I am lucky as I have worked under many great repro vets myself, but I am not a college educated repro specialist like you Nathan. My experience comes from years of life on the farm and many, many wonderful vets that have taken the time to educate me and teach me (yes teach me) all sorts of great things. My vets love that I can handle some basic treatments and know that they are the first ones I call on with questions or concerns. I do know my own limitations and thats what makes the difference. But I believe knowledge is power and I will never cease learning all that I can from some great vets and am grateful for their willingness to teach and share their experiences.

I am not sure where you get your RN information, but your statement does not apply to every state. I have many, many friends that are LVN to RN's and my closest friends are both RN's at a large hospital here in Cali. One is a administrator/teacher and she just said that the shortage of RN's is sad and that your statement definitely does not apply to every state or hospital.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 17, 2012)

> And no, there are not a huge number of people or vets who are willing to teach this, there is a very small minority (for the reasons I've stated again and again).


*Aint so! *

google Equine reproductive seminars.

There is a bunch of 'em willing to share the knowledge.!

And 'round here RN's are able to get a job about anywhere. The hospitals are begging for them.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 17, 2012)

People say that, but when it comes to actually hiring, its a different story. And RN's without a BSN are being phased out. Around here (KY, IL, OH, etc) major hospitals won't hire "plain" RN's.

Like I said, some people will teach anything to earn a buck. Considering the number of people who WON'T teach you, the few seminars are in the vast, vast minority. Thankfully. Oh, and I'm pushing 10 years of managing breeding operations, so I'm no newbie


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## Sandy B (Apr 18, 2012)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> People say that, but when it comes to actually hiring, its a different story. And RN's without a BSN are being phased out. Around here (KY, IL, OH, etc) major hospitals won't hire "plain" RN's.
> 
> Like I said, some people will teach anything to earn a buck. Considering the number of people who WON'T teach you, the few seminars are in the vast, vast minority. Thankfully. Oh, and I'm pushing 10 years of managing breeding operations, so I'm no newbie


Nathan, how do you know RN's without a BSN are being phased out? Are you a BSN too or involved in hospitals?

I can say you have given some sound advise over the years on here but I think you are out of line to judge a vet or teaching hospital that hold seminars that teach equine reproduction (on many different levels) as "some people will teach anything to earn a buck". And there are MANY seminars not "a few". I am fine with your opinion and personal thoughts, but please don't act like you know the whole industry because you don't. While I may not always agree with the way people handle themselves and their facilities, it is their prerogative to do as they wish. And I give kudos to those who do handle their own breeding management and those that are always willing to learn and those that know their own limitations.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 18, 2012)

> People say that, but when it comes to actually hiring, its a different story. And RN's without a BSN are being phased out. Around here (KY, IL, OH, etc) major hospitals won't hire "plain" RN's.


My boyfriend is the Director of Medicine at Broughton Hospital In Morganton NC> they have several RN positions available, and no one to fill them, so any Rn's that live near you that are willing to relocate, they are hiring them there and at the Blue Ridge Health Care facility's as well, they cant find enough of Rn's around here to fill all the needed positions.

I have learned quite a but from this thread, New type of flush that, Albahurst was kind enough to tell me about , learned about oxytocin after breeding, learned that there is embryo transfer being done non surgically, by barn managers. Learned that Nathan thinks _serimmune is just a bunch of "fluff", i have never used it so maybe it is. __Learned that in a few circumstances , yes i may choose to kill an animal. __*Things that make you go Hmmm...*_

.



> Oh, and I'm pushing 10 years of managing breeding operations, so I'm no newbie


I have been performing equine reproduction management since 1997, so i have been around the block a few times myself! I am just amazed what i can do when i have to!

With your experience if equine breeding management, then i am sure the stats at my farm, under my management,last year made quite an impression on you. *Those were not an accident*, it was because of knowledge, diligence and perseverance. I am not always that blessed, but i have always done *much* better than the odds said i should..And that is what tells me,this 'ole gal must be gett'in someth'in right!

I have learned in the equine business, adapt or get out!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 18, 2012)

Yes I'm a BSN/RN. Kentucky holds two of the 30 level 3 trauma centers in the country. RN's are still in demand, but bigger hospitals require more these days. Many of the local facilities don't hire regular RN's. But there are schools here who still turn out certified RN's; they haven't gone out of business yet. Its the industry trend. Magnet hospitals require BSN as entry level.


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## tagalong (Apr 18, 2012)

> Learned that in a few circumstances , yes i may choose to kill an animal.


_*ponders*_

I find your terminology... well, I was going to say "interesting" but that may be the wrong word. You say KILL. I would say put down... or euthed.. or euthanized. Whatever my words, the act is done with compassion."Kill" does not relay that to me. It sounds cold and detached. IMO there is feeling behind some words and a business as usual sense behind the other. I trust that was not your intended meaning...

My stats would be the same or better than yours over the years, l*il hoofbeats*. We do not churn out over 30 foals a year here - so I would have to use a few years together or look back when I worked on the TB farm and the WB/Standardbred/Arabian farm for bigger numbers.

And I have those impressive stats without always tubing foals (which as I said, I view as a stressful thing that is not necessary unless foal is not nursing and debilitated)) or doing anything invasive, using vets for U/S and IgG tests, palpating under vet supervision when needed (I have small hands) etc. Just using basic equine reproductive physiology knowledge and experience (although I did get an A+ in ERPh back in school) and sound breeding management.

This post may be hard to decipher - I do not have my reading glasses at hand so I have to squint and am not sure that my typing is very accurate...

This thread has started to sound like an equine reproduction infomercial...


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 18, 2012)

> This thread has started to sound like an equine reproduction infomercial...


Well.....this *is* the one thing we both agree on!


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## vickie gee (Apr 18, 2012)

Back to the original post about ultrasounding. There is not a vet around here that will ultrasound a mini. They do not have the proper equipment and are quick to let you know that. I have one two hours away that will and I trust him totally. The only reason I have ever asked him to is because I was there for with an animal for a different reason and just let suspected in foal mare go along for the ride. I know of a couple of mini owners that have their own equipment and if you have a lot of horses that would be the way to go imho.

There has been much said on this thread about vets. I will say from personal experience with Texas A & M University that my foal and mare received the utmost best of care and that the charges were I believe way below what I would have been charged at a privately owned office.

I have a couple of "good vets" here locally that I call on for routine stuff but for the more complicated I will make the two hour trip to the birthing facility/vet in Winnsboro who is actually good friends with the vet at A& M that did my foal's surgery. And sadly there is a vet here in town that I would not allow to see any animal of mine after he let my first mare in foal suffer with dystocia and telling us to just let nature take its course. I thank God for the vet that was willing to come out and quicklly put us on the road to the c-section that saved the mare's life.


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## valshingle (Apr 18, 2012)

Vickie - If you are anywhere near Burleson, TX, there are two outstanding vets there. One has done all my miniature ultrasounds, with complete accuracy and complete safety. She has very small hands and the equipment necessary to do miniature ultrasounds.

I decided several years ago to breed less and give my mares the best possible care. Yes, I could breed more and have more foals, but this is the choice I made. So, they all foal out at the vet's - unless they give us an early 'surprise'. I do have the FoalAlert system and cameras, but when I feel the mares are close to foaling then I take them to the vet. She monitors both mom and baby afterwards and lavages the mare afterwards if she feels it's indicated. Yes, this is an expensive way to breed, but the safety of mare and baby are my primary concern. So, if that means I breed fewer horses - that's fine with me.


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## vickie gee (Apr 18, 2012)

Val, I am not near there but that is good to know. I am way up in the ArkLaTex corner. By the way, my in-laws reside in Granbury.


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