# Cryptorchidism



## Mominis (Aug 15, 2010)

Our yearling, Armani (born May 27, 2009), has yet to drop. We ended up skipping Nationals with him this year because we can't stay on for the colts classes and just are able to take off enough work to go for the geldings classes. Anyway, we are worried as he acts totally studdy, more like a two year old colt than a yearling, but we haven't seen hide nor hair of the 'boys.' Is it more common in minis to have a cryptorchid? Has anyone here ever had one? We are debating about taking him to the University hospital in October, if he hasn't dropped by then, so that we can have the surgery done while it's still nice enough that he gets plenty of time out and we don't have any swelling issues.

Waiting until he is a two year old would hamper our showing plans for him for next year. It also makes keeping him more of a headache, as the place that we board isn't set up or populated by people that are used to being around stallions of any size. We can't convert his stall like Shake's is until he's gelded either, which has him standing in a stall he can't see out of, which has to be mentally harder on him. Shake's stall was lowered in the front so he can hang his head out like everyone else. Poor Armani is in a big horse size walled stall, until we can get the deed done.

Looking forward to hearing what you have to say.


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## Jill (Aug 15, 2010)

Yes, there are members here who have had cryptorchid horses, and I do think it's more common in minis than in full size horses.

Has the vet checked him and found "them" not to be down? The reason I ask is that we've had many miniature horses gelded here. There have been a few that as yearlings, I honestly wasn't sure I could palpate the testicles (either both or one) and I sort of would hold my breath when my vet came out to geld them. All were in fact down, but they can be actually so small / held up so close to the body at that age that I think many times owners feel the horse hasn't dropped when he actually has.

Good luck!


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## JMS Miniatures (Aug 15, 2010)

I'm not sure if its more common then the big horses but it seems to appear quite a bit with the minis. I would be more concerned if he dropped 1 and not the other. He may just need some more time for them to drop. I would say by a full 2 year old if they have yet to drop then I would start to worry. However since you want him as a gelding anyways and is already acting studly you might as well go with the surgery.


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## Becky (Aug 15, 2010)

I don't believe it's more common in miniatures than full size horses, however, many people including vets don't seem to be able to find them!

I personally have palpated a number of colts and stallions that vets and owners have deemed crypt when they are not. Perhaps they are up higher or smaller than expected, but both have been there and are normally descended.

I would have your boy examined by another party or two before determining that he isn't down.


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## txminipinto (Aug 15, 2010)

I would say they are much more common in minis than full size horses. And that comes from my experience at a teaching hospital where we do a lot of crypts. That said, I have seen yearlings that were professionals at hiding the boys to be fully descended as 2 year olds.


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## Jill (Aug 15, 2010)

Following what Becky and Carin have said reminds me that my favorite vet in the practice I use is "known" for being able to geld young minis in the regular way that other vets have incorrectly deemed to be cryptorchids


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## ruffian (Aug 15, 2010)

Jill said:


> Following what Becky and Carin have said reminds me that my favorite vet in the practice I use is "known" for being able to geld young minis in the regular way that other vets have incorrectly deemed to be cryptorchids


II've had the same experience. One vet said, nope - not there. Other vet had no problem and found the berries on 2 boys. One thing to try is to knock the colt out and roll him oon his back. They should pop out or at least be able to find. I've had 2 laying right aalong the penis instead of in or near the sack. In one case, one was the size of a plum, and the other was size of an almond. So a 2nd opinion can be helpful.

Good luck in your berry picking!


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## Mini Wonders Farm (Aug 15, 2010)

I just have to say that some stallions are slow bloomers. I bought a gorgeous three year old stallion last spring, I thought was sure to be a cryptorchid, he was at a sale and I never got to really look him over or I probably wouldn't have bought him. But, I'm really glad I did, because I can say he has all his parts now as a four year old.


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## Charlotte (Aug 15, 2010)

I have another little story that goes along with this subject. Over the years we have bought back 3 young stallions, all two year olds. All three had been pronounced as chryptorchid by 2, 3 or 4 equine veterinarians. When they stepped off the trailer here at our farm they each had two testicles which I could personally palpate. In one case I had our farm vet waiting here and he easily palpated 2 on this particular colt. In each case one testicle was either up a bit higher than the other, or the colt could pull it up higher.

From my experience I would say a long trailer ride will cause a chryptorchid to drop his jewels!





I am also familiar with this same scenario happening at other farms.

The only conclusion I can draw from this is that many veterinarians simply don't know how to locate small testicles on miniature horses.

I guess each can draw their own conclusions about minis vs bigs. You can imagine what my opinion is.

Charlotte

Oh, if you have one you are concerned about keep them exposed to cycling mares to keep their hormone levels up. The worst thing you can do is keep them in a bachleor herd situation.


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## Mominis (Aug 16, 2010)

Thanks for that. The vet looked at him several weeks ago because I wanted to have him gelded straight away so we could get the recovery over and get started on him for Nationals. The vet said he couldn't find them. In fact, he asked if I was sure the horse hadn't already been gelded. If you spend 5 mintues with the colt around a mare, you know for sure he hasn't. My husband (it's his horse, afterall) checks Armani very often to see if they have made an appearance yet, but still nothing. I'm going to have him read this thread and see if maybe Armani is just keeping them in a strange place, like Ruffian suggested.

If all else fails, maybe we'll go for a long trailer ride. lol!

I think the latest I dare to wait for them to drop conventionally would be November. That would have him at 18 months old. If I wait any later than that, I'm afraid that the weather will get bad and he'll be trapped inside during recovery and I don't want that. I also don't want to go through the winter with him as a stallion, if I can avoid it at all.

We have already had some excitement from a stallion standpoint. The 17 hand WB mare jumped out of her pasture one morning and came into the barn. The walls of Armani's stall are about 4' high and he reared up, hooked his feet over the wall, and was trying to climb out to 'visit' with her. That has only happened the one time, but it really scared us and we just need to get the hormone thing under control before there are any accidents.


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## Becky (Aug 16, 2010)

If you were closer to OK, I'd tell you to bring him on down. Our vet (the one Charlotte and I use) is very, very good at palpating testicles. I bet he'd find them for you. Good luck!


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## Leeana (Aug 16, 2010)

Mimi,

I've had colts not decend until they were late in the summer year of two. Armani had some "lanky yearling stuff" going on and I think he is a slower one to mature in that sense. He has always been a BOY BOY every since he was born....he was snorting and calling to his mare eye candy out in the pasture before I even weaned him last year. Would go up to the mare pasture and arch his neck, wide eyed and snort, paw and squeel when mares would urinate near the fence line.

Last year I had a vet here to geld a colt that I knew was down, now he wasn't down like a 10 yr old breeding stallion..but they were there and able to be easily found. My vet, who is a big guy, went into the stall with him and the horse was in general a nervous and shaky colt and when the vet felt for them he could not find anything and I think with him in general being a nervous horse who was slightly shaking with my vet, I think he 'sucked' them up when he tensed back there when my vet reached for them. Im just standing there like..."they were there about 10 minutes ago when I checked.....??"

I would give him until the end of fall and let him come into himself some more...my preference was always to geld in the fall/winter anyway.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 16, 2010)

I have just had two colt foals, one eight weeks, one ten gelded. I could find the testicles on the older colt, but my Vet could not, but took my word for it, and they both gelded out fine.

If they are not there, at birth or withing three days of, you are in trouble.

If people stopped accepting "late bloomers" as stallions, and accepted that they should be present and correct (allowing for their going up after weaning, which I have never experienced either) as yearlings or they are gelded, there would not be a problem in Minis.


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## Sue_C. (Aug 16, 2010)

> If people stopped accepting "late bloomers" as stallions, and accepted that they should be present and correct (allowing for their going up after weaning, which I have never experienced either) as yearlings or they are gelded, there would not be a problem in Minis.


I agree. If you have to wait till they are three-four years old to drop...then breed that on, eventually they are just gonna stop coming down altogether. That is the same as going though hoops to get a mare that won't get in foal, or hold it without drugs. I figure that is a mare that shouldn't be bred. All you are doing is passing that on to future generations.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Aug 16, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> I agree. If you have to wait till they are three-four years old to drop...then breed that on, eventually they are just gonna stop coming down altogether. That is the same as going though hoops to get a mare that won't get in foal, or hold it without drugs. I figure that is a mare that shouldn't be bred. All you are doing is passing that on to future generations.



I also agree. I believe they need to be down immediately or there is a problem. I'm not saying it means the horse can't be a breeding stallion, just saying do you want to perpetuate that trait?

Personally, I've had lots of colts that it was hard to feel them on, but they were just small is size and held extremely close to the body. I do think mini "berries" can be pretty tiny on a young colt/stallion.



And sometimes if a vet isn't used to how tiny they can be, they can't find them.

If you are in need of getting him gelded now rather than later as it sounds like you are, have you discussed with your vet giving your colt a sedative and waiting a few minutes. That will usually relax them enough that they are easier to find. Just a thought.

Good luck with whatever you do.


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## stormy (Aug 16, 2010)

The problem is many minis are diagnosed as cryptorcid when they are not. Testicles drop when they weigh enough to drop, doesn't mean they aren't there...just hard to find. A smaller horse will have smaller testicles, would look pretty strange if they didn't so "late bloomers" are often colts that just don't mature physically as fast, to me that does not make them unacceptable as a stallion.


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## Charlotte (Aug 16, 2010)

> I agree. If you have to wait till they are three-four years old to drop...then breed that on, eventually they are just gonna stop coming down altogether


But I have to ask....what about the problem with the humans (vets, owners) who simply can't locate testicles which *are* there? So we label all of those horses as having a genetic problem? When in actuuality it's the people who have the problems?

In our case...which which happened over a long span of years, the 3 colts were born with 2 down. They left our farm with 2 down as per my palpation and/or my vet. Many months later they were suddenly missing one which miraculously reappeared when the horse arrived back here. What conclusion do you draw from that? (Each of those young stallions was in the 2 year old range)

Charlotte


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## StarRidgeAcres (Aug 16, 2010)

Charlotte said:


> But I have to ask....what about the problem with the humans (vets, owners) who simply can't locate testicles which *are* there? So we label all of those horses as having a genetic problem? When in actuuality it's the people who have the problems?
> 
> In our case...which which happened over a long span of years, the 3 colts were born with 2 down. They left our farm with 2 down as per my palpation and/or my vet. Many months later they were suddenly missing one which miraculously reappeared when the horse arrived back here. What conclusion do you draw from that? (Each of those young stallions was in the 2 year old range)
> 
> Charlotte



Charlotte, You are right about there being so many vets, and owners (myself included lots of times) who just can't find them. I'm lucky in that I've got one particular vet that I can rely on specifically for this. I always have him out after all my foals are born and line up the colts for him to examine. Sometimes he instantly goes "yep, there they are" and sometimes he feels and feels and questions and then eventually says "yes, I can confidently say they are both there and down." He says sometimes one of them is just so darn tiny and sometimes one is kind of on top of the other. But if they are below the ring, they are "down."

These colts that are "hiders" of the goods aren't crypts, they are just modest.





But I consider that different from a "late bloomer" in my opinion. If a colt isn't down at birth and they can't be found as a yearling but they are there as a 4 year old....that would bother me.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 17, 2010)

Mini Wonders Farm said:


> I just have to say that some stallions are slow bloomers. I bought a gorgeous three year old stallion last spring, I thought was sure to be a cryptorchid, he was at a sale and I never got to really look him over or I probably wouldn't have bought him. But, I'm really glad I did, because I can say he has all his parts now as a four year old.


Yes,

it's a problem and as long as there are breeders who think it's okay to have a "late bloomer" left as a stallion then the problem isn't going to go away. We get what we allow ! I for sure wouldn't allow one of these horses in my breeding program nor would I buy from someone who thinks it's okay. It's a genetic fault that's being allowed.


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## Sue_C. (Aug 17, 2010)

> Testicles drop when they weigh enough to drop


To this I have to disagree. They should definately be there at birth...it has abosolutely nothing to do with how much they weigh.



> But I consider that different from a "late bloomer" in my opinion. If a colt isn't down at birth and they can't be found as a yearling but they are there as a 4 year old....that would bother me.





> it's a problem and as long as there are breeders who think it's okay to have a "late bloomer" left as a stallion then the problem isn't going to go away. We get what we allow ! I for sure wouldn't allow one of these horses in my breeding program nor would I buy from someone who thinks it's okay. It's a genetic fault that's being allowed.


Exactly...we reap what we sow...that's a given. I bet if there was a study done on these "late bloomers" there would be a lot of shared liniage, as it most likely does run in families; just as they are quite sure true cryptism does.


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## jlh (Aug 17, 2010)

I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.

that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.

while they can be palpated, you have an entirely different issue to deal with at gelding. with an open ring, it is possible for the gut to herniate. while it is possible for a vet to be prepared for this, it takes a lot longer to deal with, and creates a greater risk of infection since the incision must be stitched, limiting drainage.

So I highly recommend that a vet not only palpate to locate the testes, but check the size of the ring while doing so. this may be the more important indicator of when to perform the gelding with the least amount of side-effects.

not to mention, the degree of comfort the vet will have with the procedure.


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## Becky (Aug 17, 2010)

> Yes,
> it's a problem and as long as there are breeders who think it's okay to have a "late bloomer" left as a stallion then the problem isn't going to go away. We get what we allow ! I for sure wouldn't allow one of these horses in my breeding program nor would I buy from someone who thinks it's okay. It's a genetic fault that's being allowed.


A horse either has two testicles down through the inguinal ring or it doesn't. Period. There is no such thing as a 'late bloomer'. A horse can get larger testicles WHICH ARE EASIER TO PALPATE as it matures and is used for breeding, but it had two to start with.

A horse can, in fact, be a monorchid and be able to sire foals. Only one testicle down (one testicle down in the scrotum, one in the abdomen). I would not use one in my breeding program.


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## albahurst (Aug 17, 2010)

Mominis said:


> Thanks for that. The vet looked at him several weeks ago because I wanted to have him gelded straight away so we could get the recovery over and get started on him for Nationals. The vet said he couldn't find them. In fact, he asked if I was sure the horse hadn't already been gelded. If you spend 5 mintues with the colt around a mare, you know for sure he hasn't. My husband (it's his horse, afterall) checks Armani very often to see if they have made an appearance yet, but still nothing. I'm going to have him read this thread and see if maybe Armani is just keeping them in a strange place, like Ruffian suggested.
> 
> If all else fails, maybe we'll go for a long trailer ride. lol!
> 
> ...


Recovery from Crypt surgery will be different than from regular gelding surgery. He will most likely need a couple of days of stall rest before being allowed to run around. I would say, get yourself a great vet who knows how to do crypt surgery and the correct follow up so that you don't experience post op problems.


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## MountainMeadows (Aug 17, 2010)

It would be interesting to find out what people feel is a "late bloomer"?

Not dropping until 6 months?

Not dropping until 1 year?

Not dropping until 18 months?

Not dropping until 24 months?

Over 24 months?

I am just curious as to what people believe is acceptable and what is a "late bloomer" - I am not adept at doing polls but maybe this could be a topic that someone could start.

Just so people know where I am coming from - I am OK with my stallions not having easily palpated testicles up until about 15 months - and by easy, I mean obviously there, nice firm grape/walnut sized berries, not little frozen peas!


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## albahurst (Aug 17, 2010)

I agree with you Stacie- I might wait until 18 months, but that is it.


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## stormy (Aug 17, 2010)

Determining what a "late bloomer" is depends on your defination. As several have said often both testes are there but it takes an experianced individual to find them....not all animals mature at the same pace so the testicles may not be palpable to the average owner until they are 2 or older but may have been normally descended for their size their entire lives. Many minis are labeled as cryptorcid that are not because of the difficulty of finding the little beggers!

However that said I do not breed if there are not two there I, or my vet can find!


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## Charlotte (Aug 17, 2010)

Talking about chryptorchids and not passing it on..........don't forget the mares.

Charlotte


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## JMS Miniatures (Aug 17, 2010)

jlh said:


> I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.
> 
> that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.
> 
> ...


We had 1 do that and the vet was not prepared for it. We almost lost him but thanfully he pulled thru. This paticular vet said it is also a genetic disorder but not sure if it is or not.

In reality all foals should have theirs for the moment they are born. It all matters if the ring is fully closed or not. Trust me you don't want to take that chance. I also believe it can pass on and should be something to avoid, and I also believe if mares have problems staying in foal they should not be bred. It all comes down to stopping all these genetic defects or do we let it continue. Quite frankly there are nicer ones out there mare or stallions they don't have to breed.

I think the easiest way to tell if they have fully dropped or not is to have the vet give them a sedative and turn them on their back and look. That way they are competely relaxed and if the vet can't find them then you may have a problem.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Aug 17, 2010)

jlh said:


> I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.
> 
> that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.
> 
> ...


Can you please provide some supporting documentation, like a website where you read this, name of the vet that told you this information, etc? It would be interesting to see what information is out there.


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## sdmini (Aug 17, 2010)

I have a very good vet, even though we are his only mini clients he does lots of reading on them. Now according to him minis have a tendency to drop later than other breeds and should not be a big concern until two-three years of age. Generally speaking for us however we have no issues, yesterday we had several weanlings gelded and all testicles were "present and accounted for".

He also charges $25 for a mini gelding procedure...did I mention I like my vet.


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## Mini Wonders Farm (Aug 17, 2010)

I feel I need to clear things up.

 

First, I'm an average owner of four years. I knew very little about chryptorchidism, until I bought this horse, I bought him at a auction, I had only went to a few before an thought I got crooked on the sale. Thinking I was stuck with a horse with a problem. I researched on the web and found a breeder with 25 years experience with miniatures. Turns out that it's a common thing with miniature stallions, just because people including some vets think of them as if they are just like the big horses, which isn't the case. Miniature horses have other unique situations like a routinely born foal unable to break out of it's amniotic sac, you never hear that happening to big horses. It all boils down to SIZE, everything is smaller!!

 

I've heard of people paying big money to have the laparoscope surgery done for their young stallions only to find out it wasn't needed, just a little more time was all. Now for me I couldn't have done this because it was to far away. So of course I was very happy I wouldn't have to worry about that.

 

Now my horse, he has great bloodlines and had already bred at least one mare I know of. The big name farm was actuality encouraging the use of this horse. Now I wonder if it was us all along who was thinking, he was retaining a testicle!

 

By the way, he sired a colt with both testicles down at birth!


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## miniwhinny (Aug 17, 2010)

jlh said:


> I think there is a a part of the issue that is being overlooked here.
> 
> that is the issue that in many smaller equines, the inguinal ring remains more open for a much longer time, allowing for the testes to travel up & down.


Then if this is the issue...perhaps it's this fault we're allowing to be passed on because as Rabbit is always telling us...this problem does NOT occur in the U.K. and they for sure have tiny equines. I would be interested to know if it is being found in some of the imported U.S. horses over there.


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## Sue_C. (Aug 17, 2010)

> He also charges $25 for a mini gelding procedure...did I mention I like my vet.


Holy crap...here it is closer to TWO HUNDRED _and _$25!!!!!!!


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## JMS Miniatures (Aug 17, 2010)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Can you please provide some supporting documentation, like a website where you read this, name of the vet that told you this information, etc? It would be interesting to see what information is out there.


Parmela when we gelded my gelding it was very hard to tell if he was dropped or not, we felt like we could feel them they were just very small. The vet tried to feel for them and he couldn't really tell for sure but I guess he felt confident enough to do the procedure. Alot of stuff went wrong that day and needless to say the end result was he got up to fast and his intestines came out. We were very fortunate that there were 2 guys who chose to stay behind to see the miniatures were able to hold his legs up and to keep him on his back for the vet to stuff the intestines back in or he would had to put our horse down. Needless to say we had to do emergancy surgery from another vet. However this vet said that it could happen if the ring was not fully closed but he does not see that happen very often at all. He said to us it was a genetic defect.

I'm thrilled to still have my boy, but it certaintly does make me leary on gelding anything that young again and he was a older weanling.


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## txminipinto (Aug 17, 2010)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Can you please provide some supporting documentation, like a website where you read this, name of the vet that told you this information, etc? It would be interesting to see what information is out there.



I can verify this information. As a Registered Veterinary Technician at Texas A&M College of Veterinary Medicine, I have personally asked a boarded surgeon to geld a 3 month old colt that was getting too studdy. Only after verifying that the testicles were down and the rings where closed or closing, would they agree to geld the colt. Tomorrow, I can find documentation of the risk if needed (I'm heading home).


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## Sue_C. (Aug 17, 2010)

> I have personally asked a boarded surgeon to geld a 3 month old colt that was getting too studdy. Only after verifying that the testicles were down and the rings where closed or closing, would they agree to geld the colt.


There is nothing unusual about that...the vet should always ensure the testicles are down, and the ring closed prior to gelding...I think what the question was...is it a more common problem in miniatures?

If so, I am in the agreement that it is because too many breeders choose to keep "late bloomers" as stallions, which passes that on to future generations. If this practice were stopped, I think there would be a large increase in younger geld-able mini colts.

As said by JMS Miniature's vet...



> He said to us it was a genetic defect.


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## disneyhorse (Aug 17, 2010)

I have gelded a two month old miniature colt. Went just fine. I have an excellent veterinarian though!

Gelding here though, it's twice the amount of other areas (I think about $350 per horse).

Andrea


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## Miniv (Aug 17, 2010)

Chryptorchidism - Strangely the computer doesn't recognize the word.





I don't believe there has been a study on the subject with miniature horses versus full sized.

HOWEVER, just from personal experience we have had some who were later in descending than a full sized. What we saw was that some colts were descended as newborns, then "sucked up". They descended again either as yearlings or at two years.

It has been rare but some colts can descend as three year olds. I think we've only had ONE do it. Our suspicion is that it is very hereditary, but we don't have the proof. Scott Creek Farm has written an essay regarding this, but we have been fortunate in that we haven't had to address the problem more than once.

Personally if a colt has not dropped in their second year I would have a vet address it. It could be a simple "fix".


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## JMS Miniatures (Aug 17, 2010)

disneyhorse said:


> I have gelded a two month old miniature colt. Went just fine. I have an excellent veterinarian though!
> 
> Gelding here though, it's twice the amount of other areas (I think about $350 per horse).
> 
> Andrea


I gelded one at 2 months too, no problems, so it all depends on the horse. You just have to find the right vet. I have had some good ones and a very bad one that I will not go back too.


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