# It past time for horse slaughter to end



## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

Now is the time to let your voices shout against this injustice. Here are great links to let you know what is going on. Let your voices be heard. This is a horrible abusive ,cruel and,PAINFUL UN-NECESSARY torture of beloved horses & donkies of all sizes. I live close to a horse feedlot and it is a crime how the horses are treated. They are packed like sardines in fattening pens. I saw big beautiful HEALTHY YOUNG PREGNANT Belgians ,Arabian,, Percherons, long legged race horses and little donkies.I saw yearlings packed together so tight they were deficating , urinating on each other and could not even lay down for a rest. No Shelter either. Please join with me to stop this horrible atrocity. The time is now. We all can stop this . http://www.justsaywhoa.org/ http://www.saplonline.org/horses_USDAsuit.htm http://www.marynash.org/ Thank you for your voice... never doubt your ability to make a difference. God Bless you all Ramona Foxworth


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## sfmini (Feb 17, 2006)

While I feel that these horses should be treated humanely, I do not feel the slaughter would end. Take a close look and the numbers of horses that go through there, they are unwanted horses. If there was no slaughter just what do you think will happen to them? Not a pretty thought and it is a shame that there are unwanted horses but that is the brutal and sad truth.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

sfmini said:


> While I feel that these horses should be treated humanely, I do not feel the slaughter would end. Take a close look and the numbers of horses that go through there, they are unwanted horses. If there was no slaughter just what do you think will happen to them? Not a pretty thought and it is a shame that there are unwanted horses but that is the brutal and sad truth.


Well I totally disagree with that statement .Not UNWANTED AT ALL .. JUST FOR SALE. Someone wants them. The Industry CHASES the horses not the other way around. I pray this abusive crap stops soon. Their cries fill the night.Ask anyone who lives close to the slaughter houses. You can read facts and figures in links provided. Ramona Foxworth


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## ClickMini (Feb 17, 2006)

Gypsyheart, I fully support your views and have done what i can as well to support the usda lawsuit. Sadly i don't think you will find all that much support on this board. After some recent activity here about it I got so sad about what people were saying I quit coming to the board for a while. And also decided against proceeding with the breeding business I have poured thousands into to purchase the best horses and bloodlines around. I will only breed my little beauties for my own personal self, if I so desire.

Minis are not immune to being put into the kill pens, i have a gorgeous little shetland out back gotten off a feedlot with hours to spare.


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Feb 17, 2006)

ClickMini said:


> Gypsyheart, I fully support your views and have done what i can as well to support the usda lawsuit. Sadly i don't think you will find all that much support on this board. After some recent activity here about it I got so sad about what people were saying I quit coming to the board for a while. And also decided against proceeding with the breeding business I have poured thousands into to purchase the best horses and bloodlines around. I will only breed my little beauties for my own personal self, if I so desire.
> 
> Minis are not immune to being put into the kill pens, i have a gorgeous little shetland out back gotten off a feedlot with hours to spare.


Bravo Amy! I too am sad that so many just give up and think slaughter is the only answer but don't be too disheartened as there are more that do care than you may think.


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## justaboutgeese (Feb 17, 2006)

Why do you not just buy all the horses out of that feed lot. Problem sovled. Sorry to get personal but looking at the govenment to prevent the overpopulation of horses is not the answer. The more the govt is involved the more might come back to bite each and every one of us in the long run.


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## strass (Feb 17, 2006)

> The more the govt is involved the more might come back to bite each and every one of us in the long run.


I'm gonna' have to agree with that. It's up to us, as horse owners/breeders, to act responsibly in the numbers we produce. The government can't seem to do anything without spending 2 million bucks to answer a 200 dollar question. The end result might very well be legislation that does bite us.


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## ClickMini (Feb 17, 2006)

As a matter of fact I have been involved in animal rescue my whole life cleaning up the big dang messes that others leave behind.

I took two off that feedlot, that was all I could afford to do. And both are in very good situations now. One was a two year old POA with NO problems. He is now owned and loved by a little girl who will be showing him this year. Now please tell me WHY he ended up in that scene. Because someone took him to a sale one night, and the right person wasn't there to bid. THAT is why horses end up in the kill pen. Because people who own them don't take the time to sell them properly themselves, instead of at auction or through a broker.


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## shane (Feb 17, 2006)

ITS A VERY SAD SITUATION,,I COULDNT BEAR TO WATCH THOSE TAPES IM SORRY GYPSY HEART,IN AN IDEAL WORLD THOSE HORSES SHOULD BE DONATED FOR COMPANION HORSES FOR FREE,THERE ARE SO MANY LOVLEY KIDS OUT THERE THAT WOULD LOVE A HORSE IF THEY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY,I THINK IT SHOULD BE EVERYONES RESPONSIBLITY TO SEE THAT THERE HORSE ENDS UP IN A GOOD HOME OR IS HUMANLEY DISROYED{sp} IF THEY ARE SUFFERING, I WISH I COULD SAY SOMETHING THAT WOULD STOP THIS,I REALLY APPLAUD YOU BOTH FOR YOUR BELIEFS


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 17, 2006)

There are too many horses and too little space, that is the sad fact. Donating them anywhere would not solve the problem, neither would buying them out of the feedlot unless you have the space and the money to keep them for the rest of their lives. The race industry is responsible fro a lot of the unwanted horses- why not have a go at them directly?? Why not try to close down all the auctions- no auctions no kill buyers, surely??

The problem is the problem has been getting bigger and bigger over the years until some people rely on these sales to "get rid" of their surplus stock.

Stopping the slaughterhouses will not solve the problem, in fact it will make a great deal worse, as these horses will be turned loose on roadsides, dumped on open ground- who cares?? Obviously not their owners, who took them to the sale in the first place.

The problem needs to be tackled one step at a time from the bottom up.

Not hit on the head from above.

I thought there were only two licensed slaughterhouses left, anyway??

Surely it would not be worth while fattening animals up in feedlots for animal food??


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## shminifancier (Feb 17, 2006)

There are only 3 plants in the USA that Process horses for food. I do not know how many in Canada or Mexico, And now with the Processing plants can hire their own USDA inspectors slaughter will continue.. If you looked at the date on that Texas plant that article was written several months ago.. I am sure that in May they will be back open and processing horses for human consumption.

Slaughtering of horses is just part of the over All Big picture in the horse industry, not a very nice part but DOES serve a purpose at that.


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## New_Image (Feb 17, 2006)

ClickMini :aktion033:


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## Leeana (Feb 17, 2006)

I wasnt aware they had Horse Feedlots! :no:

So its okay to take horses that are already in a bad situation and put them in a even worse situation .....?

So your telling me taking a horse from his bad home and putting it in a cell with 3ft of horse crap, getting urinated on by other horses, ext is the 'best thing'?

I dont think anyone can tell me that a feedlot is humian, nor do i beleive there is any way that any type of slaughter can be Humane.

Coming from a long line of Kentucky Thoroughbred breeders, owners ext who are very in with the racing industry ...i have to say that not as many race horses are slaughtered as you think. There not raced 2 times and thrown into the back of a truck on there next stop to Texas, nope. There treated humanely actually and i think people like Peta who flip when a fly is killed are the ones that want everyone to throw blaime to the race horse industy.

Slaughter is one of the subjects i really know about.

...i cant do anything but voice my opinion though and hope people like me who beleive this dont get knocked down for it.

I think very few of you have been to a slaugher auction. There was one today, next friday, the friday after that and so on not to far away. Every friday at 2pm i look at the clock and i know that about 200 horses just lost there life due to SugarCreek horse auction.

Now that what is truly sad.

Leeana


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## Shari (Feb 17, 2006)

OK,,, question for you.

If horse slaughter is stopped in this country....

Who will take in all those horses?

You?

Do you have the land?

Proper fencing?

A good enough job to _properly care_ for all those horses?

Do you have the expertise to handle the ones that can't be tamed?

Do you have knowledgeable people to make sure every horse is taken care of everyday?

Do you have funds to take care of the chronically ill ones?

It is one thing to say stop the slaughter of horses but quite another to put your mouth where the money is so to speak.


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## mininik (Feb 17, 2006)

I agree with Shari. It's easy to shout Stop the slaughter! or Stop the kill shelters! but if that happens it's just going to create another ugly problem because people won't stop over producing their animals. The sad fact of the matter is every day there are more animals born than there are good homes available for them and for many of these dogs, cats, horses, rabbits, birds, etc. death is kinder than a lifetime of pain and suffering.


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## Leeana (Feb 17, 2006)

Yes, but the thing is the people who say that are also the ones sitting at home awaiting the birth of 25+ horses currently.

I didnt say i would take them in, also i most of my horses are rescues so i think i have done as much as i can. In the future i also plan to do more.

Obviously no one can take in 60,000 horses a year, doesnt mean you have to have 500 acres, 2 trillion dollars just to rescue a horse. Its about 10 dollars in gas, 5 hrs out of your day, less then a 100 dollars normally to buy a rescue horse from an auction and many people who give good homes already have around 50 $10,000 dollar horses ...i dont think its hurting anything for some people to adopt a rescue.

Leeana


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## Shari (Feb 17, 2006)

Really..... I would like to know where those 25+ foals to be are hiding on my place?

You have never been to my place, you do not know what I believe in....you know nothing about me.

Painting a broad brush like that and lumping everyone together isn't going to make you or your cause look better.

Again, unless you can put your money where your mouth is.......maybe you need to take a better look at the "Real" world as ugly as it can be.

Many people on this board already do rescues and a lot of them.

I used too,, but I can't any more after the accident.

So unless you can take on all those other horses and do right by them......................


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## Miniv (Feb 17, 2006)

shminifancier said:


> There are only 3 plants in the USA that Process horses for food. I do not know how many in Canada or Mexico, And now with the Processing plants can hire their own USDA inspectors slaughter will continue.. If you looked at the date on that Texas plant that article was written several months ago.. I am sure that in May they will be back open and processing horses for human consumption.
> 
> Slaughtering of horses is just part of the over All Big picture in the horse industry, not a very nice part but DOES serve a purpose at that.



Not sure if this is true first hand, but because of the shutting down of slaughter houses around the US, the "meat buyers" in this area were being forced to send their purchases at "Killer Auctions" over the border to Canada. And because the buyers aren't getting any money per pound, they have told a couple of horse trainers we know that they are making more money actually reselling the horses to new homes! :aktion033:

Doesn't hurt my feelings any!

MA


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## mininik (Feb 17, 2006)

Leeana, I don't have _any_ horses and I've _never_ raised a foal. I won't deny that for a while I was a part of the problem raising a few litters of puppies here and there until I stopped to think about what I was doing and why. For now I have as many non-producing PETS as I can handle and your estimation on the cost of rescuing a horse is WAY off as expenses go way beyond the purchase price of any animal.



:


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## Leeana (Feb 17, 2006)

Im not telling anyone to do anything, nor was i pointing fingers at either of you lol. Im not going to name any names but i can think of many off the top of my head. And most of the foals produced are not top quality foals to go to show homes ext.

But i know many people who buy really expensive horses, i have been to MANY slaughter auctions and i know the average price of a good mini that can easily be saved. I know vet bills, worming, hoof trims ext have to be figured in.

I just think its a better investment then another show horse sometimes.

But nevermind, forget i said anything since i will be wrong no matter what i say




:.


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## mininik (Feb 17, 2006)

You're not _wrong_, Leeana, it's just that what you're suggesting isn't going to solve the real problem. The real problem is that people are continually producing more animals than there are good homes for them. If there was no slaughter or kill shelters, eventually all of the rescuers in the world would be out of luck because there wouldn't be enough land, or feed, or money to care for all of those unwanted animals properly. It's kind of like shouting out to stop landfills without addressing our trash problem.


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## Marty (Feb 17, 2006)

*If I could have a wish*

I'd wish for a million acres

and at the public livestock auctions

there would be no mean takers

And all the horses

and donkeys and mules

would be on this land

where nothing is cruel

There would be a open barn

for shelter from the cold and rain

and a clean flowing stream

flowing through this land again and again

There would be beautiful grass

to graze on all day

and in the winter

it would be bailed into hay

and all these animals

would never go without

the attention they deserve

and love would never be in doubt

All the people would be gentle

and would never raise a mean hand

no not on my million acres

there would be nothing horrible on this land

No whips allowed

no chains at all

nothing to hurt

and no one locked up in a filthy stall

and when another poor animal

needed a place to stay

abandoned or starved

we would say "come this way"

and no animal would ever be turned down

there would always be room

no one saying "go away we are full up"

there would be no doom

and if they needed medicine

there would be a great supply

for anything that hurts you

your legs, your back, your eyes

Now that's a mighty big wish I have

If I could fufill it I would

but if every one just helped a little with what they had

and shared whatever they could

It would be better than having nothing to offer

and saying "no, don't bother me"

maybe you have a little place you can spare

with a little fence somewhere under a tree

And it wouldn't take so much

if people would just open their hearts

and make room for some helpless creature

and try to give him a new start

It's not that much more to spare a bit

just a handful of grain sometimes will do

and a bucket of clean fresh water to drink

and a shelter or a tiny lean-tu

But if you sit back and let others do it all

and turn your back on helping out

there will too many animals that won't be saved

and too many left in doubt

So the next time you get a chance

to help an animal in need

think twice before you ignore it all

it will lift your heart to do a good deed

 

 


By Marty Garrison


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Feb 17, 2006)

The opinion that since there are not enough homes or options for unwanted horses so slaughter is the best thing for them, to me, smacks of the same rhetoric and logic that PETA uses when they fill the dumpsters with euthanized animals and are criticized for it. Yet, if a anti PETA person comes to that same type of conclusion it's now magically transformed to a compassionate, humane thing to do? So why is it that no one ever hears about all those animal-loving compassionate folks who are just itching to work at a slaughter plant to ensure these horse's lives are ended humanely? Sorry, but the logic defies me and it seems hypocritical.




:

Yes, while it may become an even uglier problem that just may be what is needed to stop this BS once and for all. As long as we can sanitize the nastiness by keeping slaughter a viable option so we don't have to look at the ugliness of it all, of course it will continue. Just another dirty secret about the horse industry to sweep under the rug like all the rest. But squeeze the industry with governmental fines, force people to have breeding permits/ID's, jailing the abusers instead of giving them chance after chance, abolish selling horsemeat as a food source, take away the plants, and yes the supply and demand would wane. It's only when we are too stupid to handle things ourselves that the government steps in and really fouls thing up. You'd think we'd learn but unfortunately, at that point, I think we really DO deserve it.

IMO the vast majority of people in this world should never be allowed to own animals EVER! I just thank God everyday I don't breed or sell so I'll never have to bear it on my conscience that I sold one of my precious animals to someone who thinks this is an ok thing to do.


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## Jenn (Feb 17, 2006)

I agree with many of the previous posters - the slaughterhouses and kill buyers are not the problem here. Irresponsible breeding and overproduction is.

In addition, shutting down slaughterhouses does NOT help the situation. It just means the horses are shipped longer distances and spend more time in feedlots before they are slaughtered - definitely not more humane by any scope of the imagination.

Feedlots, at least the responsibly run ones, really aren't that bad, I can't say as a horse would complain about standing around and eating all day. I have a couple of geldings who do just that and they are pretty darned happy.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 17, 2006)

Lovecoco...I agree with you 100%!!! Its amazing how you can find a wonderful home for animal (horse or otherwise) if you take one on and give it the time it needs to find the right home and I do agree that the fault lies with breeders who are intent on producing that horse that will jump higher, run faster or out show other horses and to heck with the rest of the "produce"! I have rescued many animals in my life so far incl. minis, rehabilitated them and sold them to new loving homes...but I sometimes have to wait for a long time. I really HATE the way many people make a nice cosy living for themselves off the misery of horses backs!! And anyone that takes HRT PLEASE PLEASE DO NOT TAKE the one made from mares urine...Premarin, ask your dr what the source of the medication is as these poor things have a hideous life (google it) Those of you who value your horses and place them in loving, vetted homes just as carefully as the show ones that make the big bucks....good for you ...keep up the good work.


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## mininik (Feb 17, 2006)

Shirley, I've never said anything about PETA filling dumpsters with euthanized companion animals mainly because I know that they're not the only ones and they also aren't the source of the problem. I also never said slaughter and kill shelters are "viable options." Obviously and AGAIN, something needs to be done to check the BREEDING and stop the ABUSE of animals so that slaughter houses and kill shelters don't need to see as many animals as they do today.


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Feb 17, 2006)

Poodles, Hon I wasn't speaking directly to you, just about the subject in general, really!


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

shane said:


> ITS A VERY SAD SITUATION,,I COULDNT BEAR TO WATCH THOSE TAPES IM SORRY GYPSY HEART,IN AN IDEAL WORLD THOSE HORSES SHOULD BE DONATED FOR COMPANION HORSES FOR FREE,THERE ARE SO MANY LOVLEY KIDS OUT THERE THAT WOULD LOVE A HORSE IF THEY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY,I THINK IT SHOULD BE EVERYONES RESPONSIBLITY TO SEE THAT THERE HORSE ENDS UP IN A GOOD HOME OR IS HUMANLEY DISROYED{sp} IF THEY ARE SUFFERING, I WISH I COULD SAY SOMETHING THAT WOULD STOP THIS,I REALLY APPLAUD YOU BOTH FOR YOUR BELIEFS


There are 3 of those nasty places.. Cavel in Dekalb Mi, Dallas Crown in Kaufman and Beltex in Fort Worth. Shane there is something you can do. Now our movement is STRONGER than ever. We number 9.5 million and our numbers are soaring. We have the support of our congress now. I believe that AMERICA is the most wonderful greatest place on the face of the earth. 1 vote...1 vote. :aktion033: Hugs Ramona


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## mininik (Feb 17, 2006)

" I believe that AMERICA is the most wonderful greatest place on the face of the earth."

Really? Yikes... :new_shocked:


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## Shari (Feb 17, 2006)

It would be wonderful if the world was a perfect place.

But my Question still stands.

What happens to all the horses,, say next week if this bill goes through? You want this bill to go through, you are saying everything will be better because of it.

*Do you have a workable realistic contingency plan for all those horses that will need homes?*

_Have you thought through where they are going to be housed? Cared for? In a proper and humane manner?_

You say all horses will find good homes. It isn't going to happen. Believe me,,,seeing all I have seen over the years...I wish the world was fairy tale perfect,, but it isn't.

What will happen is, the bad people are going to stay bad,, and it will go underground, where conditions will even be worse for some horses. At my age, I have learned I can't control what people do, no matter how much I would like to be able too.

Personally I have never sent horses to slaughter or to auction houses,, and don't plan too.

The best thing someone can do, instead of trying to pass a law, in which they can't take care of all the unwanted horses.... is adopt as many as you can, and care for them in a proper manner. Make a difference that way.

I feel more horses are going to suffer in some back field or hold...because of this.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> shane said:
> 
> 
> > ITS A VERY SAD SITUATION,,I COULDNT BEAR TO WATCH THOSE TAPES IM SORRY GYPSY HEART,IN AN IDEAL WORLD THOSE HORSES SHOULD BE DONATED FOR COMPANION HORSES FOR FREE,THERE ARE SO MANY LOVLEY KIDS OUT THERE THAT WOULD LOVE A HORSE IF THEY HAD THE OPPORTUNITY,I THINK IT SHOULD BE EVERYONES RESPONSIBLITY TO SEE THAT THERE HORSE ENDS UP IN A GOOD HOME OR IS HUMANLEY DISROYED{sp} IF THEY ARE SUFFERING, I WISH I COULD SAY SOMETHING THAT WOULD STOP THIS,I REALLY APPLAUD YOU BOTH FOR YOUR BELIEFS
> ...


Yep I LOVE this country,mom and apple pie . I was born loving horses in all shapes in all sizes.



: I think it is important to speak up loudly and do what is right. A nice polite discussion is always a great education about how the other side lives and breaths. Blessings always Ramona Foxworth


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## mininik (Feb 17, 2006)

Another thing that concerned individuals can do is to continue EDUCATING the public. I don't believe there are very many individuals in our society who are truly heartless brats who WANT to hurt animals or have them killed them "just because." Too often, however, people ATTACK when they try to educate others and so their advice is taken as an insult. I don't think anyone here is truly "pro" slaughter or kill shelters but there are many breeders of horses, dogs, cats and other critters right here on this forum who might reconsider breeding (as I did) when the information against it is properly presented to them.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

Marty said:


> *If I could have a wish*
> 
> * *
> 
> ...


*
BEAUTIFUL ! I LOVE IT Ramona*


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## Shari (Feb 17, 2006)

Yes Poodles,, education is the key. So many people do not grow up around animals any more. They get older and think it is a piece a cake so to speak to care for them and it is any thing but. They get in over their heads and panic.


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## shminifancier (Feb 17, 2006)

yes education is a good thing But do not go to those places in the net that have the videos in place to get educated from..They are not in any form show the true story as to what goes on at a Processing Plant.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

Shari said:


> It would be wonderful if the world was a perfect place.
> 
> But my Question still stands.
> 
> ...


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

http://www.ac4h.com/


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## mininik (Feb 17, 2006)

Looks pretty disgustingly real to me in video linked to above, shmini... :smileypuke:


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## justaboutgeese (Feb 17, 2006)

No need to look at a video that was produced by any group with a "dog in the fight" . There are hundreds of videos on the net to look at mostly all produced by people or groups with agendas.

There was a mention of the PMU farms. I do not know about all of them but did go with a buyer two years ago buying foals from a number of these farms in western Canada. All the PMU farms I visited the animals were well cared for, well fed and received good vet and farrier care. They produce a product that has a market. As long as that market exists these farms will continue production. I went on the trip partly to see for myself what these farms were like. I would have no problem buying an animal from these farms (the ones I saw) and do not claim they are all as good but know for a fact there are many good ones around. As long as women need birth control and hormones there will be a good market.

By the way over a hundred and seventy five foals were purchased and trucked into Ontario on this trip. Most all of them will end up working as draft animals doing just what their breed was meant to do. I do know that at least five of them were purchased by a "rescue" group from Florida who resold the animals as rescues from the PMU farms for $1900 to $2,500. Those particular animals were no more in need of rescue than my minis.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 17, 2006)

http://www.horse-protection.org/


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Feb 17, 2006)

Ah yeah, an agenda--right. I wonder how many "takes" it took for that horse that got bolted at least four times to finally be put it out of its misery as it banged around inside the chute. Absolutely incredible :no:


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## New_Image (Feb 17, 2006)

Having read so many of these slaughter threds and looking into it Im kind of on the fence.

On one hand it is VERY terrible what these horses go threw and many many many of them could, should be saved. Just because one careless owner sends their horse to a auction and a meat buyer picks it up, does not make the horse un-wanted and shouldnt mean it needs to die. Some one here in Michigan looking for "that horse" would never find it in a small town Wisconsin auction. But had some one bought the horse, do some work if needed handing and care wise, and listed it on dreamhorse.com, the chances of that horse finding a nice home is very high. The person who bought from the auction could certinaly get their money back if not make a dime, and the next buyer of the horse would get a good deal and a horse is saved.

On the other hand there is NO WAY that every single horse could find a GOOD home unless a lot of people really worked together its hard to, even then, put a dent in the situation. I dont really like the fact that at a small acution 25 buyers and a few meat buyers come and the meat buyers get 80% of the horses that go threw the auction, most of the horses are reasonabley nice and healthy fully useable horses - so no one of those 25 people was looking for that horse but if offered to a bigger crowd the horse may be sold.

The way the horses are handled before slaughtered is by far the most inhumaine way of doing things and if anything that should be attacked before X-ing slaughter all together IMO. Less horses should be slaughted and the ones who do need to be, it should be done proper with good care of the animal before its slaughtered.


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## Pepipony (Feb 18, 2006)

Slaughter wont be ending anytime soon :no:

National Geographic

While I HATE slaughter, it seems a necessary evil. If there truly were enough homes for all of the auction horses, as many anti-slaughter groups state, then the horses now wouldnt end up at slaughter. Think it should be a whole lot more humane.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 18, 2006)

There were so many horses at the feedlot that I would have been proud to own. One of them was a 16hand long -legged absolutely gorgeous blue roan hunter-type gelding.His neck had the most aristocratic arch and he had such a kind eye. He was able to trot only a short distance but oh my gosh,,he was too beautiful for words.He came over to the fence and nickered to me.He stayed at the fence looking at me as if to say " I am ready take me home now.' I saw a little donkey that had a huge red X spray painted on his shoulder... again he had the kindest eye.He would not stop braying to me. I think what bothered me the most was the pregnant mares. What kind of industry kills innocent,unborn, foals regularly?Huge,beautiful belgians,percherons and even shires. I called the feedlot and wanted to find out if I could somehow purchase a few of them but they said NO due Contracts & such. ! I have pulled up next to their tractor-trailor rigs at red-lights & I have seen the doomed ones in the trailors packed shoulder to shoulder the,whites of their eyes showing through the bars. I cannot and will not look the other way nor accept such evil as necessary. 9.5 million people feel the same as I and I know there folks here on this forum who have great goodness of heart.. For those of you who care and wish to stop this atrocity I THANK YOU with all of my heart.




: You are not alone. Ramona Foxworth


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 18, 2006)

What kind of industry kills innocent,unborn, foals regularly?

Every meat industry in the world.

Eggs.

Calves.

Piglets.

Need I go on??

At the end of the day, as i keep saying, it is NOT the fact that they are killed that worries me about any animal- I have raised and killed my own meat- it is the method in which they are transported, the means by which they are killed.

The total lack of respect for another life.

I have no problem with horses being raised for meat and eaten (well, to be honest it does make me a bit uneasy but, as a meat eater, it should not)

I have every problem with the way they are allowed to be transported, the way they are allowed to be held and the way they (often fail) to be killed.

Why this should bother me more than, say, a Turkey going on alive on the conveyor belt to be scalded and plucked, I do not know, but it does.

Stopping slaughter will not stop suffering.

Only humane treatment across the board will do that.


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## shminifancier (Feb 18, 2006)

envypoodles said:


> Looks pretty disgustingly real to me in video linked to above, shmini... :smileypuke:


I didn't say it wasn't real I said that they filmed the ONE that went Bad and that is not the true picture of what happens on a daily basis at a Processing plant... With Vets having a even Worse % of horses that do not do well after given an injection to be put down Do YOU see that on a Video NO you don't but Vets can only give you a 90% rating..and a processing plants get a 95% accuracy record.. WHY then Dwell on the one or 2 that go wrong???. When the majority of the animals things go fine. When you do a job day in and day out on the Kill Line You get Very good at it.. No USDA Inspector would be letting this go through on a daily basis.. I have worked at a USDA Inspected food plant The Inspector IS There all day long looking at how the animals are handled looking to see how things are Processed, looking at thing that could go wrong and making them correct, For the safety of the workers AND Any animal like that thrashing around would be Way too dangerous for ANY Worker to continue the process..That just does not take place as a Business as usual setting...


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## Shari (Feb 18, 2006)

justaboutgeese said:


> No need to look at a video that was produced by any group with a "dog in the fight" . There are hundreds of videos on the net to look at mostly all produced by people or groups with agendas.
> 
> There was a mention of the PMU farms. I do not know about all of them but did go with a buyer two years ago buying foals from a number of these farms in western Canada. All the PMU farms I visited the animals were well cared for, well fed and received good vet and farrier care. They produce a product that has a market. As long as that market exists these farms will continue production. I went on the trip partly to see for myself what these farms were like. I would have no problem buying an animal from these farms (the ones I saw) and do not claim they are all as good but know for a fact there are many good ones around. As long as women need birth control and hormones there will be a good market.
> 
> By the way over a hundred and seventy five foals were purchased and trucked into Ontario on this trip. Most all of them will end up working as draft animals doing just what their breed was meant to do. I do know that at least five of them were purchased by a "rescue" group from Florida who resold the animals as rescues from the PMU farms for $1900 to $2,500. Those particular animals were no more in need of rescue than my minis.


My thought too Geese.

These types of video are what people like PETA put out. To scare folks into doing what they want. If all slaughter houses where the way you say they are,, they would be out of business.

*This is for the two that are so against slaughter.*

I used to raise sheep. I took them to the Slaughter house,, I saw were they were housed,, very clean with fresh water for them.. I saw the whole plant. It was a very clean place. They killed by halal.

SO NOT all slaughter houses use a bolt. But you would not know that would you. Halal is very humane and easy to do even on large animals.

Another point... as you are spinning your self righteous wheels.

You still haven't answered my Questions.

If you have this law a passed.

Again...

*Do you have a workable realistic contingency plan for all those horses that will need homes?*

Have you thought through where they are going to be housed? Cared for? In a proper and humane manner?

Yes, it is all Nobel to save the world.....then pass the buck to everyone else for your endeavor. That is not a responsible thing to do.

Education, getting the USDA to do their job would be a start.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 18, 2006)

http://www.ac4h.com/ Please go to the auction photos. Thanks Ramona


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 18, 2006)

http://www.saplonline.org/Legislation/ahsp...e_horses_go.htm http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/savehorse...llhorsesgo.html http://www.justsaywhoa.org/opinions/hahn2.asp http://www.fund4horses.org/info.php?id=618 Ramona


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## slaneyrose (Feb 18, 2006)

_Why this should bother me more than, say, a Turkey going on alive on the conveyor belt to be scalded and plucked, I do not know, but it does._

Probably because like most of us...we have and do have a relationship with a horse.(actually you can with a sheep too from my experience) but people dont think of the "meat" animals as "real" ones with feelings etc. IMO...so makes it easier for them to eat them. In France, Belgium and Italy, horses as companions etc are rare compared to our countries so maybe that makes it easier for them to eat them?? I personally do not have a problem with an animal being put down if there is absolutely no other choice..but agree with other posters that its the WAY they are kept and killed and treated in general that is the atrocity.

And regarding the Premarin industry.....The World SPCA has LOADS of proof of these poor animals and the way they are kept.......its hideous!!! AND there IS a manmade version that works just as well!!!!!....so why use your purse to encourage this.......the purse is the most powerful tool against cruelty.......use it wisely and with a conscience.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Feb 18, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> . What kind of industry kills innocent,unborn, foals regularly?Huge,beautiful belgians,percherons and even shires. I called the feedlot and wanted to find out if I could somehow purchase a few of them but they said NO due Contracts & such. Ramona Foxworth



I agree with your feelings here and how horrible it is however.. the blame DOESNT lie with the slaughter houses it lies with the breeder - EVERYONE OF THEM from those that have one foal to those that have hundreds. Bottom line is there isnt a home for every horse now- and the best of homes can change, horses change hands alot and they end up there HORRIBLE yes...

reality yes, until we ALL take responsibility.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 18, 2006)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> Gypsyheart said:
> 
> 
> > . What kind of industry kills innocent,unborn, foals regularly?Huge,beautiful belgians,percherons and even shires. I called the feedlot and wanted to find out if I could somehow purchase a few of them but they said NO due Contracts & such. Ramona Foxworth
> ...


Lisa thank you for your input.! All 3 of the horse slaughter plants are foreign owned. I feel that the owners and their over-paid lobbyist boldly and coldly thumb their up-turned noses at AMERICAN culture and values. The poor Kaufman ,Texas folks who live around dallas crown slaughter plant are terrorized by agonizing sounds,horrible odors and pitiful sights of tortured horses.. The blood from it often cloggs and overloads the city drainage systems. http://www.inpursuitofhonor.com/Media.html It might be a living to some but that don;t make it right. I know this is just my opinion....some share it and others don't. Ramona


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 18, 2006)

On the subject of PMU mares- I had not got half way into my "I shan't use the stuff get me the other even if it is more expensive " spiel when my poor Doctor said "don't start om ME my wife is a woman I get this at home all the time, have the stuff!!"

So...women of the world unite, you do NOT have to have back your fertility nor even your hot flushes in order to put PMU establishments out of action, all you have to do is stand your ground with your Doctor- and of course your insurance supplier. However good the conditions ANYTHING (and lets include "nurse Mare" farms in this shall we) that produces unwanted un-needed foals as a by product needs stamping out, pronto.

I agree some PMU farms are OK but a lot aren't so, since there is an easy alternative we should be using it.

NO "nurse mare" Farms should be allowed- what the heck are we doing here??????


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## runamuk (Feb 18, 2006)

The best way I see currently to reduce the inhumane treatment and a huge aid in shutting down bad farms feedlots etc...is to join in the push for the NAIS ....if we could get the nation ID system in full force it would help the USDA and other officials in being able to track down chronic offenders....people who consistently produce sickly neglected stock of all types......if the system is then also carried all the way to pet animals such as dogs and cats it will help eliminate illegal puppymills and catteries.....

How about getting your 9.5 million supporters and having each of them buy 1 horse out of this system? that would take care of all the horses going to slaughter for the next 5-6 years if there are no horses to buy for slaughter then there is no need for slaughter plants now is there



:


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 18, 2006)

runamuk said:


> The best way I see currently to reduce the inhumane treatment and a huge aid in shutting down bad farms feedlots etc...is to join in the push for the NAIS ....if we could get the nation ID system in full force it would help the USDA and other officials in being able to track down chronic offenders....people who consistently produce sickly neglected stock of all types......if the system is then also carried all the way to pet animals such as dogs and cats it will help eliminate illegal puppymills and catteries.....
> 
> How about getting your 9.5 million supporters and having each of them buy 1 horse out of this system? that would take care of all the horses going to slaughter for the next 5-6 years if there are no horses to buy for slaughter then there is no need for slaughter plants now is there
> 
> ...


Runamuck I understand from my auction buddies that many times killer buyers are given first choice at the at the horses even before an auction starts. They get first go at well trained quarterhorses and great riding horses..! There will always be a strong market for a great riding horses . Did you know that Canadian horses are transported here so that the killers can meet their quotas?This industry is not about unwanted horses. There is a horse farm here in Texas that breeds horses JUST for slaughter. The same man takes hundreds of horses to the plants seach year. There is a man who advertises nationally that he will come and get your horse ...good or bad. he is a killer buyer. These people are the ones that are fighting to spread the unwanted horse myth. If you have a car for sale there will be a waiting period before it is sold,but it will sell !!!It is not unwanted ..it is just for sale. The same may be said for a horse you have for sale. Those horses in the feedlot were NOT unwanted. They were unlucky and in the wrong place at the wrong time. I'll bet most of the owners were not even aware a killer had purchased them. Killers do not have to identify themselves. Thank you for your comments and your thoughts. Ramona


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## slaneyrose (Feb 18, 2006)

Gypsyheart.....that is such a good point........and I can verify that here too in Ireland, horses are bred for the table......not just unwanteds.......they are often from these awful nurse mare farms.....the orphaned foals that dont get sold at a few days old because mammy is off to nurse a more important baby that might run fast one day!! Please......it makes me sick to my stomach!!! These poor things (and yes I have actually seen them) are skin and bone......left to get on with it in big slatted sheds with no bedding and no room, very little feed thru the winter, then fattened up on spring/summer grass and off they go to Belgium!!!! Its true, the horse meat market is growing rapidly.......horses even get stolen here to provide the market!!! Its too sad.


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## runamuk (Feb 18, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> runamuk said:
> 
> 
> > The best way I see currently to reduce the inhumane treatment and a huge aid in shutting down bad farms feedlots etc...is to join in the push for the NAIS ....if we could get the nation ID system in full force it would help the USDA and other officials in being able to track down chronic offenders....people who consistently produce sickly neglected stock of all types......if the system is then also carried all the way to pet animals such as dogs and cats it will help eliminate illegal puppymills and catteries.....
> ...


Did you know the numbers you are being given are outright lies? Big loads of hooey.....usda and other agencies track all meat sales and slaughter in this country and the numbers of horses these proponents of stop slaughter keep proclaiming have not been anywhere close to the actual numbers since say the 60's when horsemeat was still available at the meat counter in almost every grocer in america? In fact one month ago there were zero sales of horsemeat for a two week period this included donkeys and mules and the only actual export was for live breeding stock to mexico and to canada...total of maybe 20 horses.............

99% of horses sold to slaughter are CULLS from breeding operations......it takes alot of tries to get that one champion and in this country horses are riding a fine line between pet and food..........you see breeding sheep, cows, pigs, chickens, rabbits, is easy as it is acceptable to eat the culls but horses have gained this "pet" stigma in this country slowly over the last 30 years so suddenly it isn't ok to eat them although other countries still rely on horsemeat as a substantial part of the diet or as a specialty cuisine..........even when I was a kid it was common to see horsemeat in the meat dept or at the butchers ...yep people ate horse......my grandparents lived up the hill above the feedlot/slaughterhouse in pendleton oregon.....never once did I hear all the screaming and carrying on that you claim happens at the slaughterhouse......I also lived in stanwood washington that until about 15 yr's ago had a slaughter facility where horses were slaughtered and again I never found this facility to be the house of horrors you describe.....

Post all the propaganda you want I still prefer to find the facts which keep getting harder and harder to find as the propaganda machine continues to take over......and the facts I have have found show the numbers of equines slaughtered in this country are minimal....

Again I say look to the NAIS as this program will in and of its intentions slowly weed out the slimy animal breeders who do not take responsibility for their animals ..................

I knew a guy who raised thoroughbreds for meat ....finally he was killed by one of his bulls in a pen.....poetic justice if you ask me..............


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## Leeana (Feb 18, 2006)

Looking back on my posts i think it came off the wrong way.

Its not that im agianst slaughter and think it should stop, im agianst the murder of innocent horses that end up in bad places (Auction, Slaughter Houses, Feedlots ext).

I do beleive that some of the horses i've seen go through slaughter, do need it. But i've seen so many go through and practically jump on the back of the truck that i wouldnt mind walking into a show ring with.

My Joey was one of those ....should see him today!

You'd me amazed.

So no, its not that im agianst slaughter ..i think its some people's responsibility to care, if no one cared then horses would have it 10x worse. But it isnt hard to own and care for a perectly healthy/sain horse you can find at a auction that is about to get picked up by a kill buyer. I dont think people should go out and buy a 36yr old horse with two broken legs ext from a kill buyer ...but you'd be suprised these horses that go to slaughter. Show Quality animals sometime!!!!



> How about getting your 9.5 million supporters and having each of them buy 1 horse out of this system? that would take care of all the horses going to slaughter for the next 5-6 years if there are no horses to buy for slaughter then there is no need for slaughter plants now is there


AMEN SISTER! Thats what i wish people would do, and its not a hard task. Been trying to say this the whole time



:


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## shminifancier (Feb 18, 2006)

AMEN SISTER! Thats what i wish people would do, and its not a hard task. Been trying to say this the whole time



:

Well for one thing, there is not enough people to adopt the few Mustangs each year,, How in the world can enough people be found to adopt out 80,000 or more each and every year that are going to slaughter 30,000 of which are PMU Babies~! Hmmmmm.. There are just so many people that can adopt horses, And with this many coming unto the scene, there are Not enough that can or will adopt that many.. Unless those 9.5 million people DO adopt a horse... But Like I said before those that want slaughter to stop Built at the minimum 10 Extra stalls and go after each and every one of them. Then with No supply the Processing houses having No Product to use will close ALL by themselves.. Ya right That won't happen in a blue moon... People talk but 98% do NO action to take in unwanted horses..Those that do MY Hat is off to you..But it takes more then a few to handle this problem that the Horse industry has brought on themselves Each and Every Breed~! Minis included~!


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## runamuk (Feb 18, 2006)

> name='shminifancier' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:36 PM' post='566650']AMEN SISTER! Thats what i wish people would do, and its not a hard task. Been trying to say this the whole time
> 
> 
> 
> ...


let me help you with this.......the actual number of slaughter horses is more like 25,000 per year...so if 9.5 million were to actually act...hang on doing the calculator here.........that would be according to my calculator 316 yrs.....assuming the numbers remained the same...since horse slaughter numbers have been decreasing ....wellll you see where this goes..........so if every one of those activists (in name only) bought/adopted a horse destined for slaughter for the next 316 yr's ther would be no horse slaughter............wow problem solved



: sadly the truth is most these people do not want to actually DO something they just want some podium to bitch at



:



:



:


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 18, 2006)

http://www.kaufmanzoning.net/horsemeat/ Ramona Foxworth


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 18, 2006)

runamuk said:


> > name='shminifancier' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:36 PM' post='566650']AMEN SISTER! Thats what i wish people would do, and its not a hard task. Been trying to say this the whole time
> >
> >
> >
> ...


Who did you say was bitchin? :lol I love a good spirited discussion & I love the exchanging of ideas. It is not like we are getting paid for being called names or enjoy evil minded insults.. Mona


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## runamuk (Feb 18, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> runamuk said:
> 
> 
> > > name='shminifancier' date='Feb 18 2006, 07:36 PM' post='566650']AMEN SISTER! Thats what i wish people would do, and its not a hard task. Been trying to say this the whole time
> ...


so...are you saying that actual facts are going to beat propoganda?

Or is it when you are confronted by more information you just clam up?

Do not think that those of us on this forum are a bunch of stupid pawns who will do the bidding of some group of propoganda freaks......I have been here a very long time and learned that most of the visitors to this forum are smart, interested in facts, and not likely to follow the majority "just cuz"



:



:


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

runamuk said:


> Gypsyheart said:
> 
> 
> > runamuk said:
> ...


I am a MEMBER of this forum too. This is the most WONDERFUL,FANTASTIC ,INTELLIGENT group of folks I have ever had the pleasure of knowing . I love the great knowledge that is here, the unconditional love that is given freely here.You speak for yourself but not for everyone. They all have their own voice which I respect very much. I have given you true facts and figures but you have to read them know it. I stand solidly by my words. Ramona


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## tagalong (Feb 19, 2006)

*Gyspyheart* - you can keep posting links ad nauseum - but they do not tell the facts behind the sensationalist angles... or bother with actual numbers - as *runamuk* told you.



> And regarding the Premarin industry.....The World SPCA has LOADS of proof of these poor animals and the way they are kept.......its hideous!!!


WRONG. Most of the myths you read about PMU ranches are CRAP. They also police themselves very well. I used to go on rounds with a vet - we stopped in unannounced at PMU farms for inspections (as is required for all ranches) ... where mares clamoured to get back inside from their turnouts (yes - they had regular turnout) ... where no mares were stressed or had harness rubs/sores....where barns were the cleanest I have ever seen.... where mares laid in deep straw beds and snored in peaceful slumber.... where no foals were born in the snow on the cruel prairies... where no mares had water rationed (at all)... but of course - none of that is sensational enough. Yes - the industry can be phased out... but very slowly. Where do you think all those mares are going to go?? Oh - and *30,000 PMU babies are not slaughtered each year.* That would be... impossible. At last count there were only 7,000 mares involved in the industry - and less each year. Last time I checked, mares did not have litters...



:

Slaughterhouses. Sad to say - thanks to us - they are a necessary evil. And unfortunately for the sensational-minded - horses are not bled out alive, kicking and writhing on the hoist. That would be dangerous, you see. No horse is taken out of those chutes alive... unless the workers are all imbeciles. All these places are inspected. A friend worked at a very modern plant in Alberta - and I actually took a tour of the place. Horses were dispatched quickly - and never had time to panic. If occasionally one freaks out and needs an extra bolt, that is the exception - except, of course - we are led to believe it is the norm.

I have related all these tales in similar threads - only to be shot down and flamed ... so I am leery of it now. Firsthand eyewitness accounts count for nothing against websites that perpetuate the same myths over and over again. It is not the slaughterhouses that are the problem... transport needs to be fixed. The horses in the feedlot at the plant I visited were well fed, sorted out in appropriate groups - and very well cared for - better than four horses just down the road from me here.

*Leanna* - for someone who has no trouble taking horses to the auction mart, I am not sure how you can really rant about it. I know you are young - but you need to look at the big picture sometimes. Yes, thousands of Thoroughbreds do go for slaughter. Even with the work of Rerun and other TB placement groups. And no, 25 foals are not arriving here, either - before you ask.

And most of the horses that wind up in those feedlots/slaughterhouses/trucks... *are* unwanted in the end.


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## sdmini (Feb 19, 2006)

I too love a good debate but throwing a bunch of links at me is not debate.

First off we raise beef cattle (_sshhh for slaughter_) and either the feedlot in question is run by a bunch of morons or the story has been contorted a bit. Animals do not thrive in a filthy, packed environment hence the rate of gain is going to be stunted, not a wise business approach. Animals living in those types of conditions are generally more susceptible to sickness and disease, again not a wise business move. All feedlots that I know of (cattle, hogs, etc) can only house a certain number of animals going by their square footage and size of their lagoon. (All _commercial_ feedlots around here have their own waste disposal system) Violating their approved numbers cost them a decent size fine and most have a very small profit margin per head so any fine is a problem.

Blood from the plant clogging drains??? We have a small local processing plant here in town and we are good friends with the owner. They have a series of traps in which collects the blood so none actually goes into the system. (Same for the local vet clinic.) The town regularly checks the water for blood at the water plant, no problems.

I met a gentleman who has started running a horse feedlot (think the man is a [email protected]$$ but that's not the point). His horses are grouped in pens according to their needs and *all* are vaccinated. All are healthy and happy as that is what it takes to make an animal grow and gain *which is the point of a feedlot*. Would he sell to someone stopping in wanting one?? YOU BET, the biggest reason being that he can get more money from someone wanting the horse for a pet or mount than he can for slaughter. We are also in a pretty rural area so he doesn't have to worry about people "picketing". Sorry but so many non-slaughter people have such a reputation that makes many people decide it just easier NOT to deal with resale.

I find the idea of "kill buyers getting first pick of the horsesâ€™ ridicules as well. Kill buyers do not pay top dollar so why on earth would the sale barn let the "cheapskates" set the market. Not only that but where are the owners in all this? Last horse sale I went to the horses were bought through the ring not in the back room.

I grew up in the backyards of sale barns and yes know many kill buyers, all I know also deal in riding horses. Two of the biggest in my area are highly sought out for performance animals (funny thing is they sell mostly to people who wouldn't be caught dead buying from an _auction_.



: ) They also buy a lot of horses that run through loose with no history but have the "look" of a rider and will buy them and give them a chance.

Hey those of you still reading my "book" way to go. :aktion033:

My point is not that you are wrong in your opinion of the slaughter industry but many of your facts just do not compute.

Cattle are killed in the same manner and yes I have a huge problem with oh it's ok for Bessie but not for Dobin. If you are in an uproar about the "supposed" horses being conscious when their throat is cut why are you not upset about kosher meat? The ONLY way that is prepared is by blessing the animal and slitting the throat and letting it bleed to death, no stun gun.

I'm sure some kills go wrong, human error and all. BUT they can and do happen anywhere. Sitting at the local vet clinic the Rendering Truck came to pick up a pony that the vet had euthanized before leaving for a farm call. Long story short the pony was not dead, had come enough out of it that he was rolled up and starting to look around. Wouldn't that have made a disgusting video if the truck had been earlier and he would have actually loaded the pony thinking him passed. :smileypuke:

I think it is very noble to take up the "unwanted" horse cause but you are chasing the wrong end in my opinion. Stopping slaughter will lead to dumping of unwanted animals. Look how many cats and dogs are dumped every year and there are shelters for those!

I believe that debate can bring change and would welcome it.


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## mountain_waif (Feb 19, 2006)

....


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## Leeana (Feb 19, 2006)

Most horses that go to auction, at the auctions i've been to ARE NOT wild unruly animals. I could probaly lead one around the block 10x.

..i wasnt talking about the PMU

NOW ...



> Leanna - for someone who has no trouble taking horses to the auction mart, I am not sure how you can really rant about it. I know you are young - but you need to look at the big picture sometimes. Yes, thousands of Thoroughbreds do go for slaughter. Even with the work of Rerun and other TB placement groups. And no, 25 foals are not arriving here, either - before you ask.


I do NOT sell at auctions, just because i KNOW i can find a good horse at an auction does not mean that i would even think about selling there!!!. Since i buy at auctions sometimes then I MUST sell there apparently i guess since i guess you would know! I dont know where you get that idea from Tagalong. Having sold one horse (that technically wasnt even mine, it was my dads/sisters i just rode it) at a auction, that has NO meat horses that is Normally a Thoroughbred racing auction or Standardbred auction ....DOES NOT mean that i sell there.

Also, Tagalong ..i never said anything about wild mustang babies. There are many perfectly saine Mini's & Horses that you could find. I'm sure there are some Thoughtful loving homes out there who have more then enouph money to buy thouthand dollar show horses, that i know would be happy to take home/rescue a nice mini that ended up in the wrong place. Maybe your not one of those homes, but no ones asking anything of you.

But horse slaughter, im hoping, is here to stay. I'd hate to see what happened to SOME horses if they didnt have slaughter.

....But do NOT throw accusations at me!

I think we need some people to fight for some of these horses. Even though i know slaughter needs to stay ...i dont think i will ever completely agree with it.


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## DunPainted (Feb 19, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> Now is the time to let your voices shout against this injustice.


:no: [SIZE=14pt]*SLAUGHTER BEGINS * [/SIZE] as soon as backyard breeders continue their practice of producing poor quality stock which nobody wants to buy!

Flame away!


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## tagalong (Feb 19, 2006)

> I find the idea of "kill buyers getting first pick of the horsesâ€™ ridicules as well. Kill buyers do not pay top dollar so why on earth would the sale barn let the "cheapskates" set the market. Not only that but where are the owners in all this? Last horse sale I went to the horses were bought through the ring not in the back room.
> I grew up in the backyards of sale barns and yes know many kill buyers, all I know also deal in riding horses. Two of the biggest in my area are highly sought out for performance animals (funny thing is they sell mostly to people who wouldn't be caught dead buying from an auction. ) They also buy a lot of horses that run through loose with no history but have the "look" of a rider and will buy them and give them a chance.


Exactly right, *sdminis*. The "dealers" will not pay top dollar - only what meat price is going for that week - they do NOT have first pick. And they wpuld sell horses from the feedlot (often better cared for than the original owners could be bothered to do... ) for those who come shopping at the plant - and many did. There were two young guys who worked at the large plant in our area who tried out the rideable horses ... and then they were RE-sorted out into other pens according to temperament and training.



> Most horses that go to auction, at the auctions i've been to ARE NOT wild unruly animals. I could probaly lead one around the block 10x.


Some are, some aren't. I used to see scenes like 12 yearlings - not from PMU barns - but from some ignorant guy's back field - herded into the ring, never touched, never handled, panicked... well, winter was coming and he never got around to dealing with them so why feed the suckers through the winter? Why bother? Jerk.

We attended the big horse sales in the area every month... looking for lesson horses... (and we found some wonderful horses that way) ... and I never had any contempt for the auction mart. Or the dealers. Nope. They are doing their job. And no - the dealers there did not use the double-decker cattle liners to haul...

Anyway - my disgust was reserved for the basic horse owner... who saw nothing wrong with flipping two thin old mares through the sale - and using that money to snap up a scared filly to take home and "breed". Or who had fat, cresty, on the verge of founder old Blackie lumber into the ring - and then blew a gasket when the auctioneer asked them to tell something about the horse..age? Broke? Good with kids? If he is a saint and rideable - show him off to his best advantage... no. The dealers bid for him... and when the seller (too late now, buddy) heard the auctioneer say "SOLD - pen 33" - and everyone knew that is one of the dealer pens - he loses it. Shouting obscenities... while the winning dealer whispered to the stock boys and had them put Blackie in a pen on his own... so the poor unwanted old man would not be jostled by bigger horses - and maybe wind up in the re-sell pens if his feet could be worked on and his diet adjusted....

A few weeks later we recognized his unusual blaze peeking at us from the feedlot... one of the riding pens. And Tom the Percheron cross came home with us and became a valuable addition to the therapeutic riding program.

The problem is not the slaughterhouses. Not the PMU barns - who contribute very little to the slaughter industry in actual numbers... but PEOPLE. Us. Shame on US.

And shame on the sensation-seekers who refuse to see the big picture... who label and point without consideration of actual facts. I know that tends to muck things up and all - but still...



> Since i buy at auctions sometimes then I MUST sell there apparently i guess since i guess you would know! I dont know where you get that idea from Tagalong.


From you, *Leanna.* You told us you sold that "Friesian" at auction... and have said other things about selling and buying there. If such is not the case - fine, I may have misunderstood you.



> Also, Tagalong ..i never said anything about wild mustang babies.


Neither did I.



> There are many perfectly saine Mini's & Horses that you could find. I'm sure there are some Thoughtful loving homes out there who have more then enouph money to buy thouthand dollar show horses, that i know would be happy to take home/rescue a nice mini that ended up in the wrong place.* Maybe your not one of those homes, but no ones asking anything of you.*


And being RUDE is inappropriate. Gee - I look out into the field and see the pinto who is not safe to ride... is a bit of a head case - can only be handled by me.... and yet loves his pasture buddy and will always have a home somewhere and be safe... oh - he is mine. Mean old me! Feeding him and worming him and getting his feet done and caring for him and all that nonsense...



> ....But do NOT throw accusations at me!


I didn't. I was only going on what you seem to have said previously.... many times.

Anyway...

Some of the pictures you often see detailing PMU horrors - have been around for at_ least_ 40 years. I have seen the same dark barn... the same red mare's butt.... over and over again. Such a barn would have been closed down. It is not the norm... I have stood in PMU barns full of drowsy, dappled horses... and there is no ammonia smell... poop is picked up quickly... clean, clean, clean. Mares are turned out for their spring/summer break around March/April (depends on the farm)... closely monitored for foaling... big foaling sheds with gates are out in the fields and bedded deeply... very few foals are lost - the barns we checked had about a 90% foaling rate - which is good in the horse industry. Stressed, unhappy mares do not get wind up delivering healthy babies.... when the foals are weaned (late August, September into October) the mares move back "online"... out of the winter chill and storms... All of that ^^^ contradicts a lot of the propaganda... but no matter. FACTS do not count. And in time - the ranches will be phased out...

No flames from me, *Dunpainted*...



:


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 19, 2006)

My point about PMU mares is that, since there is a viable alternative, why are we still doing it.

If one of the farms is bad, that, for me, is reason enough to stop putting animals through this unnatural life- we do enough to animals anyway, one way or another.

I think it is time the PMU farms shut down. Not because they are necessarily cruel- I do believe yo. But because they are unnecessary.

OK anyone got ANYTHING good to say about Nurse Mare Farms???


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## mrgizzmoe (Feb 19, 2006)

slanghter is a nessacery evil. it just needs to be done humaniyly (spelling?


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## tagalong (Feb 19, 2006)

PMU foals are not all unwanted... they even have futurity systems set up for them... the big fall sales are crammed with buyers seeking well-bred, registered Paints, Quarterhorses and Drafts. The Draft crosses are highly sought after for dressage and hunter/jumpers - and many have gone on to the A circuits. The idea that all these poor babies are loaded into trucks and sent to slaughter - is not accurate.

Last year? Year before? .... there was a sad tale of a stock trailer full of rescued PMU weanlings that were bought at a sale in Manitoba and then trucked to the southeast US somewhere... along the way - no food. No water. And when the caring people got home... they simply parked the trailer in the shade and went inside to eat and catch up on their sleep. Neighbours complained. Humane society officers opened the trailer and found 6 weanlings dead or dying... and the two survivors were seized from their rescuers....

*rabbit * - the farms were started in the 40s... back before any hormone replacements could be produced synthetically... as late as 10 years ago - the synthetic treatments were still very expensive compared to the Premarin... as such hormone replacements become more widely produced and making them becomes easier (and they gain accaptance), the PMU farms _will _ slowly be phased out...


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## New_Image (Feb 19, 2006)

Gosh darn tagalong why do yah have to go and share a story like that



:

If it were in my power Id lock the people in the trailer with no food or water, haul them around the country, get home and catch up on my sleep.

Fizz - I agree.


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## JRose (Feb 19, 2006)

> How about getting your 9.5 million supporters and having each of them buy 1 horse out of this system? that would take care of all the horses going to slaughter for the next 5-6 years if there are no horses to buy for slaughter then there is no need for slaughter plants now is there
> 
> 
> 
> :


Tee Hee that would never happen. People can gripe and make some one else pay to clean up messes but can not do much them selves.

I do not like horse slaughter. But some things are nessacery! There is not much I can do about it. Sure I can gripe, bitch and complain with the best of yous but what happens when slaughter is no more? I have rescued several horses from the slaughter pens my self. Most of which I have re homed. All were very nice horses. Seems 50/50 to me. Sum horses are something people will want and were just wrong place wrong time & if we can help them, great but sum are in deed un wanted animals and where would they go? The handling and care given to the animals before they are brought to be killed is what we should go after. That can and should change and it would be fore the better.

PMU now thats another story :nono: Unessacery and cruel.


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## mrgizzmoe (Feb 19, 2006)

JRose said:


> > How about getting your 9.5 million supporters and having each of them buy 1 horse out of this system? that would take care of all the horses going to slaughter for the next 5-6 years if there are no horses to buy for slaughter then there is no need for slaughter plants now is there
> >
> >
> >
> ...



i could not of said it better myself.............



what is PMU?


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## Leeana (Feb 19, 2006)

Tagalong that wasnt ment to be rude, i was saying that there would be plenty homes that would be willing to take them in. I wasnt saying that you were not a good loving home ext.

The fresian, which was my dads, was the only horse we have sold at auction. Since he was apparently driving the nabors nuts, we were given 7 days to find him a home, since the nabors couldnt help themselves. He had a bad thing about being in his stall at night or anytime, which i guess was driving the nabors nuts. To my suprise, we live closer to the barn then them and i couldnt hear anything.

He was put through the auction and not sold because an amish guy bidded on him and the horrors of what the guy would have used him for was terriable.. Then after the sale while we were loading him this guy and his two girls that i had talked to and missed him when he went through bought him from us, very cheap to because if we had took him home and not sold him within 7 days then would have had to be handed over and after that it would be out of our hands where he was sent to and could have been some place where im sure they would have kept him about 30days and then sent to slaughter if not sold im sure. He is currently being used as there daughters first dressage horse and trail horse. They also still have him because i have there email and just checked with them when we signed the papers over. They plan to keep him as well.

..That is what you were refering to Tagalong. The one time we sold (which techinically we didnt sell in the auction) we did it responsibily because we were forced to. We sure are a evil bunch arn't we?

Its the people who do it just to make a dollar that tick me off.

Leeana


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

Horses exported to Mexico 06 http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/AL_LS635.txt AL_LS635

Las Cruces, NM Thu, Feb 16, 2006 USDA Market News

US to Mexico Weekly Livestock Export Summary

Current Previous Current Previous

Week Week Y-T-D Y-T-D*

Species 2/11/2006 2/4/2006

Beef Cattle

Slaughter 0 0 0 0

Breeding Males 0 0 0 0

Breeding Females 0 0 0 0

Total Beef Cattle 0 0 0 0

Hogs

Slaughter 11,722 6,566 51,704 23,204

Breeding Males 0 0 2 20

Breeding Females 0 185 394 1,072

Total Hogs 11,722 6,751 52,100 24,296

Sheep

Slaughter Lambs 0 0 244 0

Slaughter Ewes 2,629 300 10,707 9,009

Breeding Males 0 0 0 0

Breeding Females 0 0 0 0

Total Sheep 2,629 300 10,951 9,009

Dairy Cattle

Breeding Males 0 0 0 0

Breeding Females 0 0 0 0

Total Dairy Cattle 0 0 0 0

Goats

Angora 50 0 200 0

Spanish 0 0 0 0

Other 0 0 0 0

Total Goats 50 0 200 0

Horses

Slaughter 132 116 1,010 665

Breeding Males 4 27 73 90

Breeding Females 4 75 120 180

Geldings 31 37 194 7

Burro/Mule/Pony 0 2 2 0

Total Horses 171 257 1,399 942

Exotics 0 0 0 0

Grand Total All Species 14,572 7,308 64,650 34,247

Source: USDA Market News Service, Las Cruces, NM

John Langenegger, OIC (505) 527-6861 FAX (505) 527-6868

www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/AL_LS635.txt

0735M AP


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## Jenn (Feb 19, 2006)

slaneyrose said:


> And regarding the Premarin industry.....The World SPCA has LOADS of proof of these poor animals and the way they are kept.......its hideous!!! AND there IS a manmade version that works just as well!!!!!....so why use your purse to encourage this.......the purse is the most powerful tool against cruelty.......use it wisely and with a conscience.


OH PUHLEASE!! Unless you've personally been to a Premarin farm, SHUT YOUR MOUTH! Premarin mares are kept in better condition and receive more care than most miniature horse breeders' mares that I've seen - and yes, I have been to some fancy-shmancy breeding farms. Premarin farms are subject to stricter regulations, surprise inspections and absolutely rigid rules than any other industry. When I die, I want to come back as a mare on a Premarin farm - life would be GREAT!

And actually, the man made version is no where near as good as the Premarin version. Scientists cannot possibly duplicate the hundreds of hormones found in mare urine - I think they're up to about a dozen in the man made version when the real version contains 300+ variations of hormones.

When I get menopausal, I hope to God Premarin is still available.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 19, 2006)

Jenn you sound like you might need it right now (and I'm now under the couch where you cannot reach me as I am well aware there is a good reason for you being hormonal



)

I am on the non organic HRT and it works just fine.

I am NOT happy with mares going through this for our needs when there is an alternative.

The fact is, not all the farms are that good, not all the inspectors are that good, and one rotten apple is all it takes.

If the farms will phase out naturally as the man made stuff gets better I am content.


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## runamuk (Feb 19, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> Horses exported to Mexico 06 http://www.ams.usda.gov/mnreports/AL_LS635.txt AL_LS635
> 
> Las Cruces, NM Thu, Feb 16, 2006 USDA Market News
> 
> ...


Thank you thank you at that rate with the current year to date being only 1010 divide by 6 weeks then multiply by 52 and your annual total is oh look ONLY 8753............huge huge difference from the 60,000 that keeps being touted...... as I said get you 9.5 million supporters to each buy 1 and the problem would be solved as there would be no horses left for salughter




:


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

runamuk.... I can back up what I say . How many horses have you sent to slaughter personally? Gypsyheart


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## slaneyrose (Feb 19, 2006)

I`d be interested to know that too...you do seem very defensive about this runamuk...is it your living???


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

I believe all people have a duty to stand up for what they think is just and right. The horse slaughter industry is not HUMANE........ To turn away from evil and pretend it does not exhist is dangerous for the very soul of this nation . Contrary to what is stated by some in this thread , The majority of slaughter bound horses are NOT CULLS !!!!!..... Instead they are young & healthy. The horses I witnessed at the feedlot were GREAT-LOOKING !!!!!!! Sadly they they were in the wrong place at the wrong time. I know many of you that are reading this thread wish to stop horse slaughter. You will find great links I provided to help you with this. Call,write or fax your rep,your senators,your governors. You can make a difference. http://www.horseindustry-partners.com/open...-whitefield.htm Gypsyheart


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## slaneyrose (Feb 19, 2006)

_When I get menopausal, I hope to God Premarin is still available._

If you want it so much......you and all the other selfish people that would put an animal thru suffering just to benefit themselves and to save a few dollars should just drink your OWN horses urine!!!!


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

I love to read about this orphan foal rescue. http://www.orphanfoals.org/cchra.htm G


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## slaneyrose (Feb 19, 2006)

_WRONG. Most of the myths you read about PMU ranches are CRAP. They also police themselves very well. I used to go on rounds with a vet - we stopped in unannounced at PMU farms for inspections (as is required for all ranches) ... where mares clamoured to get back inside from their turnouts (yes - they had regular turnout) ... where no mares were _

So you think that you know more going around ONE AREA with ONE VET about premarin mares than organizations that are trying to do something to stop cruelty???? Wow!


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 19, 2006)

HALLOOOO!! can anyone hear me/us???

Without an alternative- which you patently do not have- to close the slaughterhouses will cause MORE abuse Gypsyheart- you are not a member of Peta by any chance, are you?????

Slaney, might I suggest that attacking people on a personal level is not a very mature way to get your view across????

This has already been suggested to Leeanna, and she is seventeen!!!


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## shminifancier (Feb 19, 2006)

There is a way to raise ALL farm animals and Process them in a Humanly fashion..

http://www.certifiedhumane.com/index.html


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## runamuk (Feb 19, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> runamuk.... I can back up what I say . How many horses have you sent to slaughter personally? Gypsyheart


I have never sent a single horse to slaughter and have rescued or been involved in the rescue of upwards of 20 destined for the kill truck.........so gypsy how many have you sent away and how many have you saved?

My issue is with scewed statistics and outright propaganda ..... I prefer the facts...I have seen firsthand slaughter facilities that dealt with horses and I have seen the feedlots...none ever even remotely resembled the complete BS most of those links show..........If you want to rally people for a cause I feel it is better to rally them with truth and honesty and to have a real plan.....banning slaughter will not stop the glut of unwanted horses on the market.........those horses will all still be there so what are you going to do with them?? Where is your contingency plan for the day after the slaughter facilities shut down?? these are the more important issues stopping the inhumane treatment, preventing indiscriminate breeding, and slowing down the number of unwanted/culls going into the system.......if you can solve those issues I will back the banning of slaughter but until then........you will be doing more harm than good.



slaneyrose said:


> I`d be interested to know that too...you do seem very defensive about this runamuk...is it your living???


WOW I have been personally attacked...woohoo ...hey everyone it finally happened :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: I have been a member of this forum since it's inception and have NEVER managed to be attacked ......records are made to be broken



:

please see my response to gypsy............I prefer fact and reality to lies and propaganda has nothing to do with whether I personally oppose or support slaughter



:



:


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## tigeresss (Feb 19, 2006)

Wow I wasn't planning on getting invovled in this one because it's always so rediculous but I thought I'd add a few comments. Also just to note I've only read a few posts on this topic.

Firstly I'm not a PETA member or supporter I'm very much against PETA.

Secondly...whoever said this "When I get menopausal, I hope to God Premarin is still available." is absolutely rediculous in my opinion. Have you never even looked into the alternative methods? I know quite a long list of women who are using the plant/herbal methods rather than getting into that premarin rubbish. They are doing amazing, if not better than the ladies who use premarin.

Up here most of the PMU farms are wonderful farms. The farmers are very dedicated to their horses and now are breeding sporting type horses or other specialized horses so the offspring will have a better chance of being sold to good homes rather than heading to slaughter. I know quite a lot of PMU foals and they're all so fabulous. The mares unfortunetly have to endure some time in a confined area and some farms respect their exercise rules and some dont. But from what I've heard from rescue groups as well as other dedicated horse people these farmers treat their horses wonderfully and to the best of their abilities. But there are always going to be bad apples. That being said I've also heard awful things...but I take EVERYTHING I heard/read with a grain of salt. The industry has had a major downfall within the past few years due to the realization that premarin isn't good for you. With the taking of premarin your risk of stroke, a heart attack, blood clots, and breast cancer go up a heck of a lot.

I've only read the past few posts by Runamuk but I'm agreeing with her so far! Anyone who thinks horse slaughter should be completely banned isn't thinking about THE WHOLE PICTURE. If you ban horse slaughter where are all the thousands of excess horses going to go? Will they stay in peoples backyards to wither away slowly and die long hard painful deaths? YES, it's likely that would happen. Who are we to say that we shouldn't eat horses when we eat cattle or pigs(which by the way is one of the DIRTIEST meats...what with all it's worms and larva in it...even if you cook it






? In my opinion horse slaughter needs to continue otherwise there would be so many big problems that would arise and at the moment I can't think of a way to solve those problems. It's possible that after maybe thirty or so years (although probably a bit more) the problems would level themselves out...but horses are not wild animals they are domestic animals which makes this even more of a problem. These horses do need to be killed humanely and be kept in good conditions. They have the right to live wonderful lives, even if it will be shortlived.

That reminds me, that I also believe animals are much more superior to humans and deserve the same rights as humans. They deserve teh right to not be eaten....but at the same time the world is always going to be eating meat...Oh begger I don't know where I'm going with this at all. I'll return to this later.


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## New_Image (Feb 19, 2006)

> *QUOTE*How about getting your 9.5 million supporters and having each of them buy 1 horse out of this system? that would take care of all the horses going to slaughter for the next 5-6 years if there are no horses to buy for slaughter then there is no need for slaughter plants now is there
> 
> Tee Hee that would never happen. People can gripe and make some one else pay to clean up messes but can not do much them selves.
> 
> ...


:aktion033: I couldnt have said it any better, either!!!

I wish less horses went to slaughter as many are not un wanted like some have said. But the real thing is how they are treated. There should be a way to buy horses from feed lots or before they are slaughtered to. I dont see what stopping slaughter all together will do other then cause a mess.

*Gypsey and others - What will happen to the horses when there is no more slaughter?! Im curious! *


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Feb 19, 2006)

Again the answer seems simple enough... DONT BREED or breed MUCH LESS we all like to think our breeding program is SO MUCH better then the next guy, maybe cause our horses have color, or have won a few ribbons or or or.... but bottom line if you have or will breed you are contributing in your own way to slaughter.

I have been to feed lots and gotten horses from there and your right there are some amazing horses that end up there, and it is very sad and the PMU farms arent just about how the horses are treated the mares but the mass production of foals.

Again we can believe there is a market for them but unless you track the foals from birth to natural death no one has any idea what numbers truly end up in the kill pens of any breed including our minis

This whole thing is a sad reality


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## slaneyrose (Feb 19, 2006)

Runamuk...I wasnt attacking you at all!! I just wondered as you seem so sure that you have the facts and gypsyheart doesnt ....if this is because it was your job or something!! Why do you call it propaganda and why do you think you have the facts and none of the groups/people do?? Just a question.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

Runamuck... I have found over the years that those who are most opposed to the stopping of horse slaughter are those most intimately involved with it. I would not sit down and break bread with a killer nor allow them on my place. I have never -ever sent any horse to slaughter either by direct or indirect means. I have in my rescue, a pmu belgian,an arabian, a mini, a mini donkey. Times change... In all of this discussion where is the mention of the owner-breeder's responsibilties ? When slaughter becomes illegal then it beomes each owner's rightful duty to put their horse down humanely. I put the responsibility back into the rightful place The owner-breeder. Gypsy


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## DunPainted (Feb 19, 2006)

slaneyrose said:


> I`d be interested to know that too...you do seem very defensive about this runamuk...is it your living???


[SIZE=18pt]MA'AM......[/SIZE]

As a member of this wonderful Forum, I take issue with this inappropriate or ANY PERSONAL ATTACK.

There are rules against such behavior on this Forum. Such public posts should not be tolerated....even in half the dose meeted out to Runamuk.

That said, I'm sure folks will understand if Mary Lou or other Monitors make a decision to close or, preferably, delete this thread in its entirety.

REMEMBER, THIS FORUM IS HERE AT THE BEHEST OF IT'S OWNER, MARY LOU. If folks continue to post personal barbs I wouldn't blame her for shutting this down.

SUGGESTION: Individuals with an uncontrollable COMPULSION TO PERSONALLY ATTACK another forum member, PLEASE PM. Frankly, a majority of the members have grown weary of this behavior.

*We can disagree, agreeably.*


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## shminifancier (Feb 19, 2006)

Canada does not have ALL the PMU farms there are some in Minn and quite a few in South Dakota as well and I am sure there are more around the USA also~!!


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## runamuk (Feb 19, 2006)

DunPainted said:


> slaneyrose said:
> 
> 
> > I`d be interested to know that too...you do seem very defensive about this runamuk...is it your living???
> ...


:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: exactly my sentiments



:


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## Leeana (Feb 19, 2006)

I think im going to just stay out of these discussions, i see both sides here and right now im about as confused as i can get.

Fizz-

I dont think i make any personal attacks ..i merely stick up for myself as any human (including yourself) would do. This is mostly a opinion based forum, if everyone can share there opinions i beleive that i have a right to as well. If someone asks my opinion they will get it.





There is a difference between sticking up for yourself/What you beleive in & Personal attacks though ...

Leeana


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## justaboutgeese (Feb 19, 2006)

What I see are some opinions that are being supported by misinformation and naive emotions. There are plenty of laws already in existence to prevent the perceived problems now were they enforced. Creating new laws is not going to alter the fate of these animals one way or the other. Personal attacks on forum members is not going to further a cause or create support where little exists. One of the causes I used to support financially no longer receives support from me since they adopted radical ideas. Let them find support from people who voice opinions but have little to contribute. Just my .02 cents worth.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

runamuk said:


> Gypsyheart said:
> 
> 
> > runamuk said:
> ...


Runamuk ......agree to disagree.. ? This post of yours was pretty heavy -handed with insults don't you think ? Gypsy


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

justaboutgeese said:


> What I see are some opinions that are being supported by misinformation and naive emotions. There are plenty of laws already in existence to prevent the perceived problems now were they enforced. Creating new laws is not going to alter the fate of these animals one way or the other. Personal attacks on forum members is not going to further a cause or create support where little exists. One of the causes I used to support financially no longer receives support from me since they adopted radical ideas. Let them find support from people who voice opinions but have little to contribute. Just my .02 cents worth.


I respectfully dissagree, to me radical is dumping horses at slaughter plants and loose horses at auction.Some people do this again & again because it is convenient.. Are you aware that the abuse and neglect rate DROPPED very significantly when horse slaughter in California became illegal ? Horse theft dropped as much as 34% . Gypsy


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## mininik (Feb 19, 2006)

Sigh! Exactly WHAT is the purpose of hashing this topic out here to the point of personal attacks? It's silly, there is no point and it's not helping anything. Gypsy, you came here with a message--that's great--now leave it at that. Everyone has had their say and it's obvious that you're not educating anyone here, just preaching to the choir. From the sound of it you have some 9.5 million supporters out there to rally for your cause and that would be doing a heck of a lot more for slaughter bound horses than you sitting here arguing with a handful of members of this very insignificant to the real issue Miniature Horse forum.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 19, 2006)

envypoodles said:


> Sigh! Exactly WHAT is the purpose of hashing this topic out here to the point of personal attacks? It's silly, there is no point and it's not helping anything. Gypsy, you came here with a message--that's great--now leave it at that. Everyone has had their say and it's obvious that you're not educating anyone here, just preaching to the choir. From the sound of it you have some 9.5 million supporters out there to rally for your cause and that would be doing a heck of a lot more for slaughter bound horses than you sitting here arguing with a handful of members of this very insignificant to the real issue Miniature Horse forum.


Envy, this thread has been viewed 1177 times. More than twice that of any other thread on the back porch. Gypsy


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## mininik (Feb 19, 2006)

And? What's your point? My thread on water fasting a few weeks ago got about that many views...



: no wait, it got more! LOL Almost 2000!


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## tagalong (Feb 20, 2006)

slaneyrose said:


> So you think that you know more going around ONE AREA with ONE VET about premarin mares than organizations that are trying to do something to stop cruelty???? Wow!


*Rude to the max.* Geeeez. Listen up. The inspections are set up by the PMU industry - they all work the same way across the board. Each farm MUST pass said inspections - which are done by independent vets who are not affiliated with the industry. They report back to the government agencies. The "AREA" I referred to was about 75-100 miles on the side of a square... minimum. We are talking western Canada here where things are much farther apart than in Ireland.... so YES - I do know more about it than someone sitting at their computer without a clue... I have walked the walk. Some only talk the talk - and much of that talk - is wrong and based on myths.

I have seen the farms. You have not. And yet you know so much more about them... I never saw ANY cruelty of any kind on those ranches... do you not read what others post before you snap off a reply?? THIS is what happens on these threads... those who do not have any first hand experience find fault and point.... and do not care to deal with eye witness accounts that do not fall in line with what they are told is going on.... and do not bother to deal with actual facts and figures. I pointed out earlier that the garbage about 30,000 PMU babies being slaughtered a year was crap.... as there are (at most) only 7,000 mares in the industry at the moment... but 30,000 sounds much more _sensational..._ so ignore the truth and run with the lies...

*runamuk* - facts and actual numbers do not matter to some... but I appreciate your trying to seperate fact from _fiction_... and there is a whole lot of fiction in this thread...


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## Watcheye (Feb 20, 2006)

Im in the middle of class and dont have much time to work on this now but I want to keep it up there so I can find it again and do something about it. To say it makes me sick is a rediculous understatement. This is something I cry and lose sleep over.


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

envypoodles said:


> Sigh! Exactly WHAT is the purpose of hashing this topic out here to the point of personal attacks? It's silly, there is no point and it's not helping anything. Gypsy, you came here with a message--that's great--now leave it at that. Everyone has had their say and it's obvious that you're not educating anyone here, just preaching to the choir. From the sound of it you have some 9.5 million supporters out there to rally for your cause and that would be doing a heck of a lot more for slaughter bound horses than you sitting here arguing with a handful of members of this very insignificant to the real issue Miniature Horse forum.


What good advice!



> runamuk - facts and actual numbers do not matter to some... but I appreciate your trying to seperate fact from fiction... and there is a whole lot of fiction in this thread...


Fact and fiction never seem to matter! :lol: Some people's fiction is fact to others. So I go back and read Envy's post. This topic has be beat to death and will never change anyones mind. It's right up there with politics and religion.

And whoever is in favor of no slaughter.......I suggest you get off the key board and start rescuing these horses. Sitting around talking about it......well that gun just went off again.


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## ClickMini (Feb 20, 2006)

been out of town this weekend but once again the topic is on my mind. The rescue that I assisted getting Justice and Prince from the feedlot was at the trade fair with a bunch of good horses that were now safe.

For those who say I would never send my horse to slaughter or auction or whatever, or in other words I personally don't believe in slaughtering my own but believe slaughter to be a necessary evil...HAVE YOU EVER HELPED A HORSE IN NEED???

I have taken personal responsiblity and yes I have quite a few on my place (big and small) that were rescues. They are all great horses.

The bottom line is slaughter auction is a convenient place to dump a horse. Much quicker and easier than placing an ad in the nickel paper, showing the horse to prospective buyers, etc. Your horse ends up at the auction on the wrong night and he's off to the feedlot to let the wormers and shots clear his system.

Feedlots aren't necessarily nice places for those who think they are. There is a lot of naivete on both sides of this argument.

I should stay out of these topics though because all it does is cause me to make a mental list of people I don't like.

However ya'll did your job well, I won't be breeding my little expensive and well-bred beauties any time in the near future. I don't want to send any out, no matter how nice/expensive/well-bred they are, into a world where this is considered a nessecary evil. Because you never know when they'll end up at the auction on the wrong night...

Thank you to Marty who sure wrote a beautiful poem for us idealistic souls. (((((HUGS)))))


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## Relic (Feb 20, 2006)

And whoever is in favor of no slaughter.......I suggest you get off the key board and start rescuing these horses. Sitting around talking about it......well that gun just went off again.

Now at last there's something on this thread l agree with.


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

> However ya'll did your job well, I won't be breeding my little expensive and well-bred beauties any time in the near future. I don't want to send any out, no matter how nice/expensive/well-bred they are, into a world where this is considered a nessecary evil. Because you never know when they'll end up at the auction on the wrong night...


Well, good for you! I commend your decision and wish more people would follow your plan. Because that is where these problems start. :aktion033:

But it's kind of sad that you would judge a person by one thing they believe in. You never know how many other things you might have in common. Don't shut yourself off to people because of one difference of opinion. Well, ofcourse you can do what you want.......who am I to tell you anything..........but it is food for thought. This is a heated subject and sometimes we just have to sit back and re-group.

Carol


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 20, 2006)

Yes, of course I have helped- I used to have an arrangement with the local "Meat Man" and many times have come down to find he had dropped something off in the barn I was not expecting. Sometimes a very nice animal, sometimes a HUGE headache!! A Fjord mare so thin I could not dare turn her out for fear I get reported, plus her two month old colt.

Took a long time and a lot of money to get them right.

Most of the ponies I trained and sold on in the late sixties came from the knacker, so PLEASE do not assume we have not done our bit or even that we are not still doing it.

I have also held my horses whilst the knacker dispatched them- I have never allowed anyone else to hold them and I have never allowed them to go alive, but I have had them pout down and I will continue to support slaughter as a means of handling the problem that we, as horse owners and breeders, have all allowed to get out of hand.

As I KEEP asking, as others KEEP asking...what other solution is there??

And I would like to know, please- are you a member of Peta???????


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## ClickMini (Feb 20, 2006)

Jane, WHY would it matter if I were a member of PETA? Am I doing the right thing? That is what is important.

The options for slaughter in Europe are very different than they are here.

That being said, I believe that euthanasia is the alternative for a horse that is too ill or unmanageable to save. What you were talking about, is a form of euthanasia, in my opinion. Your animal was dispatched in a controlled situation where you were personally involved. YOU TOOK PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. You didn't dump your animal off for who knows what fate. The options that you had or have are different than what we have here.

The judgements I make about people is based on tone. Telling someone that cares and is trying to do the right thing that the gun just went off again ISN'T VERY NICE. :nono: That is just one example.


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## tagalong (Feb 20, 2006)

> Feedlots aren't necessarily nice places for those who think they are. There is a lot of naivete on both sides of this argument.


And a lot of foolish labelling as well....

Where did anyone ever say feedlots were "nice places"?? The one I visited - FREQUENTLY - which of course no one else here ever did - and thus have no clue about it (not that that stops anyone in this thread



: ) ... was "nice". As "nice" as such a facility could be. Horses sorted according to size, age, mare with foals etc. Excellent hay. Clean water. Safe fencing. People encouraged to "shop"... and we did just that - many times.

PETA goes off the deep end about such things. They are more about PR than the actual cases. The more sensational the approach can be - the better... and they are infamous for perceiving some myths as fact. They would also have you not ride - or drive. _All horsies should run free in the wild, happy and healthy, with daisies braided in their manes_ - which was pretty much what an indignant PETA lady once told me...


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## ClickMini (Feb 20, 2006)

> The one I visited - FREQUENTLY - which of course no one else here ever did - and thus have no clue about it (not that that stops anyone in this thread )


That's where you're making assumptions and you are wrong.


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

Well, Amy, telling me I don't care because I have my own opinion is NOT VERY NICE either! :nono: But I am not going to judge you on this. That is my point. I am sure you are a very nice person. As I am.

Amy, trust me.....I care. I am just not going to sit here every time time this thread come up and hash it all up........another point I was trying to make. It's pointless. But if you want to judge me by my TONE......which you can't hear unless you have some superpower........well go right ahead. It's just a lot of BLA, BLA, BLA. And I even agreed with you and commended you on your decision. And you pick the one negative thing to YOU and judge ME from that! LOL.....too sad.



:

Well, I took such a nice break from painting.........sitting down and enjoying all this fine company!

Back to work.


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## nootka (Feb 20, 2006)

Carol said something very eloquent, here:

"But it's kind of sad that you would judge a person by one thing they believe in. You never know how many other things you might have in common. Don't shut yourself off to people because of one difference of opinion. "

This happens over and over on this board, and everywhere, matter of fact.

I have a lot of friends/acquaintances/familly that if I chose to shut off from them because we don't agree on certain things (that have nothing really to do with our relationships), I would be a lonely person, indeed.

The sad fact about slaughter is that it is a byproduct of humans' desires to surround themselves with loving, beautiful animals which are possessions to them. Another sad fact about it is that many humans would like to believe it does not exist (slaughter) because of anything they did, or didn't do (spay and neuter, etc.).

I don't know if the answer exists with responsible people as in yeah, we could all stop breeding our nice animals which are worthy of improving the breed and have something to contribute, and yet we would sit back and watch those that don't really care one way or the other sit back and enjoy a surge in sales.

I wish slaughter was unnecessary, however, if it does have to exist, I wish it could be humane and without trauma. I know I would far rather have a vet to my place for euthanasia than send away one of my little beloveds on a trip that I didn't even know the outcome, let alone the dangers of the trip itself. I can't say that my horses would never end up there, beyond my control, but I do try to stay in touch with buyers and make sure they know I will either be active in helping to resell a purchase they made from me, or even take them back myself. I know it's not a perfect answer but it works for me (i.e. helps me sleep at night).

I wish I could offer more and I do hope to someday be able to rescue one or two nice horses. It's just not possible right now.

Liz M.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 20, 2006)

Amy, I was not asking you if you were a member of Peta I was asking Gypsy- we know nothing about her, there is NO information in her profile at all, she comes on here and starts ranting on about stopping the slaughter- it sounded so like a Peta activist I just wondered- and I STILL have received no answer!!!


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## mininik (Feb 20, 2006)

PETA member or not, who really cares? Gypsy is either going to go do something to stop slaughter or she's going to keep trolling on here, doing nothing.


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## Theresa Messick (Feb 20, 2006)

Let me start by saying that I have been to a slaughter plant as an invited guest. I wasn't trying to do espionage or anything like that. My friend's father worked at one and he extended the invitation. I had no secret agenda. I grew up in the business, my parents raised horses, I showed, trained, gave lessons, apprenticed with some of the best trainers in my particular breed and always felt like I had a good handle on the industry. I now have children of my own and while we aren't as involved as I was growing up, we still have horses. Having said that, I must say that it is difficult for me to believe that anyone is a true horseman if they allow the slaughter to continue. I've heard and read all the stuff that's been quoted from the Bible and people comparing equine slaughter to human slaughter or dog slaughter, but you guys are missing the point. It is inhumane, what those videos show you isn't half as bad as seeing it live and in person. I owe my education to horses, I attended college on rodeo scholarships, and quite frankly I am eager to give back. My daddy always told me "they take care of you, you take care of them" and that is what I do. I've taken back horses I've sold many times and had to re sell them because someone's situation changed. I've bought horses from auctions and rehabbed them and gotten them to good homes. I work a second job to help pay for the vet bills and feed bills and whatever else comes along. I feel like I owe them that much. I feel sorry for those of you who don't.


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## mininik (Feb 20, 2006)

Theresa, whoever you are... get a clue. Buy one if you have to. You have come across a group of some of the most caring horse owners you'll ever find. Go slap someone else who is deserving with your rant and please take Gypsy (your alter ego) with you.


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## Theresa Messick (Feb 20, 2006)

envypoodles said:


> Theresa, whoever you are... get a clue. Buy one if you have to. You have come across a group of some of the most caring horse owners you'll ever find. Go slap someone else who is deserving with your rant and please take Gypsy (your alter ego) with you.


Evidently, I've struck a nerve. I'm not saying you don't care about your horses. I don't go around slapping folks either. I just tell them to get ALL the information before they form an opinion on an issue. Spend some time at an equine slaughter plant and then we'll talk.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 20, 2006)

_SO NOT all slaughter houses use a bolt. But you would not know that would you. Halal is very humane and easy to do even on large animals._

Shari.....what is Halal??? Is that where they just cut their throat and let them bleed to death???


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## slaneyrose (Feb 20, 2006)

And whoever is in favor of no slaughter.......I suggest you get off the key board and start rescuing these horses. Sitting around talking about it......well that gun just went off again.

Like some of the others here, I have also done a lot of rescue and rehab work. I think there are many things worse than death and for some poor suffering animal its a necessary evil. I agree with all the posts that the problem DOES start with breeders, some (not talking about people on this thread) people think if a mare isnt being ridden then it should be breeding, I liked the post that said about the geldings eating and being happy...horses or any companion animals dont need a job apart from that and I do strongly agree with gelding stallions that are not top of the range and for keeping only mares that are real quality producers. My "problem" with the the feed lots (cant speak first hand on american ones but can on the irish ones), nursing mare farms (lot of personal experience on this one) and the PMU is not about the death of the animal but the misery that is their life. We dont have PMU`s here thank goodness!!! But how can you say that all the evidence and work that goes into investigating these atrocities is myth???!! What have they to gain?? Why would anyone make this stuff up??

I would also just like to stress ONCE AGAIN that when I asked runamuk if they were involved in any of these business`s it was A GENUINE QUESTION!! no malice implied which I did go on to explain so dont know why I am being accused of this being a personal attack when far worse is being said here ...this for one....Theresa, whoever you are... get a clue. Buy one if you have to. You have come across a group of some of the most caring horse owners you'll ever find. Go slap someone else who is deserving with your rant and please take Gypsy (your alter ego) with you.

--------------------


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## slaneyrose (Feb 20, 2006)

Oops...sorry everyone....must be drunk and lost my way to the party!




:


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 20, 2006)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Amy, I was not asking you if you were a member of Peta I was asking Gypsy- we know nothing about her, there is NO information in her profile at all, she comes on here and starts ranting on about stopping the slaughter- it sounded so like a Peta activist I just wondered- and I STILL have received no answer!!!


rabbit why would you ask such a question? I am NOT a member of Peta nor are the people who wish to stop horse slaughter. They like me, feel horses are our companions,our precious pets, our lifelong friends.. Don;t you feel your minis are pets too?Do you think our wonderful mini horse friends would be safe if the plants could turn a profit from their deaths? Would you be for eating cats and dogs by any chance?. To me it is the same thing. I know of a 13 year old girl whose beloved horse was stolen and sent to slaughter.She cried for weeks and only wanted her horse back.I know of some one whose $30,000 cow horse was stolen and sent to slaughter. All were micochipped.These folks loved their horses dearly. There are those of you responding to this forum WITHOUT R-E-A-D-I-N-G the heading. I did NOT ask if you believed in slaughter only that it was past time to stop it & how to do this. I will not make this personal for it is not about you or me. The truth about horse slaughter is all around. It is no longer swept under the rug and the dirty secret is out much to the regret of the slaughter plant owners. The ugliness,the disgusting filthiness and the outright greediness of the whole outfit is on record.. People love horses and always will,it is that simple. Just so you know my email boxes are are flilling up by good folks who agree that it should be stopped............ :aktion033: Just so you know. Gypsy



Theresa Messick said:


> Let me start by saying that I have been to a slaughter plant as an invited guest. I wasn't trying to do espionage or anything like that. My friend's father worked at one and he extended the invitation. I had no secret agenda. I grew up in the business, my parents raised horses, I showed, trained, gave lessons, apprenticed with some of the best trainers in my particular breed and always felt like I had a good handle on the industry. I now have children of my own and while we aren't as involved as I was growing up, we still have horses. Having said that, I must say that it is difficult for me to believe that anyone is a true horseman if they allow the slaughter to continue. I've heard and read all the stuff that's been quoted from the Bible and people comparing equine slaughter to human slaughter or dog slaughter, but you guys are missing the point. It is inhumane, what those videos show you isn't half as bad as seeing it live and in person. I owe my education to horses, I attended college on rodeo scholarships, and quite frankly I am eager to give back. My daddy always told me "they take care of you, you take care of them" and that is what I do. I've taken back horses I've sold many times and had to re sell them because someone's situation changed. I've bought horses from auctions and rehabbed them and gotten them to good homes. I work a second job to help pay for the vet bills and feed bills and whatever else comes along. I feel like I owe them that much. I feel sorry for those of you who don't.


Theresa thank you so much for having the courage to stand up for what is right and good.I agree with you on all points. I cannot imagine why people would fight so hard for such inhumanity to contiue. Blessings Gypsy


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 20, 2006)

I thought you might be a Peta member because you do seem to have a lot in common with their methods- this is not necessarily a criticism of you, just a comment. We know nothing about you, which actually makes me a little leery of you, especially when you come on in such an aggressive manner.

Perhaps a better approach might have been to introduce yourself, tell us something about what you do and then how strongly you feel about certain subjects.

Whether you like it or not, all on this board are dyed in the wool horse lovers and a lot of them do not agree with you!!

I do not agree with you.

I know people that have had Minis stolen and knackered and I _still_ do not agree with you- stopping slaughter on these grounds would be a little too much like using a sledge hammer to crush a peanut!!

If you were to be able to stop horse slaughter- and you will not- where would you put all the horses??

You still have not answered that question.

How would you word the bill??

You cannot stop people killing horses, some badly need to be killed.

I am not sure how you intend to dispose of the dead horses that are euthanised- over here it now costs over $500.00 to have a horse taken away- a Mini Horse, nothing fancy, just removal and joint incineration. If you were to be able to close the slaughter houses where do you think this would be done, because at present this is done by the knacker.

These are all questions that need to be addressed.


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## Theresa Messick (Feb 20, 2006)

Gypsyheart said:


> rabbitsfizz said:
> 
> 
> > Amy, I was not asking you if you were a member of Peta I was asking Gypsy- we know nothing about her, there is NO information in her profile at all, she comes on here and starts ranting on about stopping the slaughter- it sounded so like a Peta activist I just wondered- and I STILL have received no answer!!!
> ...


My pleasure, I just want to educate. I'm not trying to cram anything down anybody's throat. I firmly believe if you saw for yourself what happens, you'd come away with a completely different view. It changed my way of thinking dramatically!


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 20, 2006)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I thought you might be a Peta member because you do seem to have a lot in common with their methods- this is not necessarily a criticism of you, just a comment. We know nothing about you, which actually makes me a little leery of you, especially when you come on in such an aggressive manner.
> 
> Perhaps a better approach might have been to introduce yourself, tell us something about what you do and then how strongly you feel about certain subjects.
> 
> ...


These questions you have ask have been addressed eloquently. Many people on this forum know me. I have been here for awhile. AGAIN R-E-A-D !!!!! I was even involved with the Christmas exchange.You just have to click onto the links provided to find all answers to your questions. The only thing missing is a bow and wrapping paper. Gypsy


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## Watcheye (Feb 20, 2006)

When I joined this forum I wanted to join friends and learn. I know that there are many opinions and points here and though this may not help and many may find it redundant I will state some of my feelings and I think most to all of you will agree on some of this.

I was raised with horses as more than my pets but my family always. It has been a blessing and I owe them so much. I am very empathetic and the thought of sending one of my beloveds to the slaughter is more than I can bear. What must go through their minds? I really want to expirience the joy many of you are blessed with breeding and raising but I cant sell them with this fear. I know that my best friend will take one but I feel that I will only do it for myself/my own pets. This means I will be greatly limited. Such is life. I would also like to rescue and have rescued almost all animals in my family. I dont know what all of the answers are but I am deeply saddened to see any soul unwanted and sent to their fate.

Now before anyone thinks I am ranting on a high pedistol, I am not. I am just speaking my mind. I do love my pets and I do what I can when I can.


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## Gypsyheart (Feb 20, 2006)

envypoodles said:


> PETA member or not, who really cares? Gypsy is either going to go do something to stop slaughter or she's going to keep trolling on here, doing nothing.


Oh I am no troll. I love this forum and have for quite awhile The folks here are G-O-L-D. They have helped me many times.I am really rather flattered that you keep responding to my every written word and not ignoring them, Envy,Don't feel bad no-one can scare me away and shut me up ,believe me the very best have tried. AND as you can see.... They failed.



: . Gypsy


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## shminifancier (Feb 20, 2006)

A few years ago I had a small steer just up and die.. Well I called for pick up..They wanted 175 dollars That is way too much for a small steer.. I dragged him down and put him the manure pile to decompose with with the rest of pile.. Things have also gotten out of hand for deed animal pick up~! I did that for a few years and we would pick up for Nothing~! And then grind them up and feed the 3,000 mink that the farm raised.. So I have also worked in that part of things. And stopping slaughter will only mean more horses just being Left out in pastures, pens, or whatever to lead Who Knows what kind of life, Because nobody cares, nobody loves them, nobody gives a darn.. Now for people like that at least a Processing plants puts the animal out of a miserable horrible life. And Processing plants should be left open to take care of these unwanted, Unloved, from the uncaring People that are all around us~!. And closing the 3 Plants that Process horse meat for human use Does Not stop ANY of the Other Processing plants from using horses to feed the Big Cats at Zoos and Other places. So Slaughter REALLY does not stop at all....And with Processing going on in Canada and in Mexico that just means a Longer and horrible ride and kept in WHO Knows What unspeakable conditions.. At least here in the States the USDA Inspected plants there are people and laws around to protect inhumane ways..Tighten up those laws make the 3 Processing plants Adhere to the new laws and that would make many people happy as then the horses will at least be processed in a humane manure. Most of the people that have been Labeled as PRO Slaughter is Truly Wrong...We are Not Pro Slaughter,, We are against inhumane treatment~ And closing the US Plants will just ADD to the the Inhumane Treatment of horses!


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

shminifancier said:


> Most of the people that have been Labeled as PRO Slaughter is Truly Wrong...We are Not Pro Slaughter,, We are against inhumane treatment~ And closing the US Plants will just ADD to the the Inhumane Treatment of horses!


Well, there you go! Hopefully people will actually read that statement. There isn't a person on this Forum that WANTS to see an animal in the slaughter house. But I thought people were smart enough to realize that fact. It's amazing to me how things get so twisted!



:


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 20, 2006)

I'm sorry I have NEVER seen any of the questions I am asking answered by ANYONE. I am on here a lot more than you, I can assure you, had it been said, I should have read it.

Attempting to belittle your "opponent" rarely works in politics, let alone on a Forum as common sense orientated as this one.

Attacking someone on a personal level is not acceptable.

Please stop.

Just because we do not agree with you does not mean you have the right to throw a wobbly.

You have NOT answered my questions.

Perhaps, after all, you actually do not have an answer??

You seem to be more than able to paste goodness knows how much of other peoples thread in your answers, I am sure if this had been eloquently answered elsewhere you would have pasted it up by now.

Carting horses down into Argentina, and thence on to Italy...how do you intend to stop that??

Or is it OK so long as it is not done in America??

So... it is OK for the horse to be trucked across the borders out of the country, out of sight and mind, because you have failed totally to address the true problem, which as has been stated ad nauseum, is the _conditions_ under which the horses are kept and transported, _not_ the fact that they are slaughtered.??


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Just because we do not agree with you does not mean you have the right to throw a wobbly.


:new_rofl: Well, that was too funny. Never heard that term before but a perfect example of how we both speak English but have words with totally different meanings! Good one Jane........made me giggle in spite of it all.


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## Hosscrazy (Feb 20, 2006)

> And closing the US Plants will just ADD to the the Inhumane Treatment of horses!


I could not agree more. No, of course I do not want to see horses slaughtered. But the answer is not to close the U.S. plants and make this someone else's problem, where there are not the same level of regulations that are required in the U.S.

Liz R.


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## tagalong (Feb 20, 2006)

_*wobbly starting....*_

Well* I'm* about to throw a wobbly. *A BIG one.*



> My pleasure, I just want to educate. I'm not trying to cram anything down anybody's throat. I firmly believe if you saw for yourself what happens, you'd come away with a completely different view. It changed my way of thinking dramatically!


Theresa-who-seems-to-write-like-Gypsy, I _have_ seen it. Once again - apparently some people do not actually read anyone else's posts and just blather on....

At the plant I visited - the horses were treated as humanely as possible. None of the fiction that we are always told is fact happened. All the plants are regularly inspected - but true - I can only speak for the Canadian version. I went through the plant a couple of times - so I know that the treatment I saw was not an anomaly. Ditto for the holding yard/stock yard. And I am not stupid, or cruel - or any other nonsense you care to label me as....

And for ANYONE to imply that because I said the above - and witnessed it first hand.... or because I actually have been in PMU barns that were NOT abusive, cruel etc. and dared to say so... for anyone to imply that all of that means I do not care for horses in some way... that I gave up a secure, comfortable lifestyle to devote the last 15 years to working with other people's horses for a living... _ to imply that I do not care.... that I am a callous, cold, unfeeling person..._

HOW DARE YOU. *HOW [SIZE=12pt]DARE[/SIZE] YOU.... *



> Most of the people that have been Labeled as PRO Slaughter is Truly Wrong...We are Not Pro Slaughter,, We are against inhumane treatment~ And closing the US Plants will just ADD to the the Inhumane Treatment of horses!


Yeah *that ^^^. *

This thread reminds of the times a year or two ago when a certain poster (now banned) would sit at his computer and post all sorts of horrific links and tell us how those 30,000 PMU foals were slaughtered as they were born and other such nonsense. He knew all this sitting in front of his computer in Florida, you see. And he bashed us all to kingdom come when we dared to not agree with him. He also pointed out that only he apparently loved horses or gave a rip about them.....

Do I sound a bit ticked?? Hope so... I would hate to waste all this indignation...

_*wobbly over...*_


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## DunPainted (Feb 20, 2006)

[SIZE=12pt]Is there a possibility we can put this thread out of it's misery?[/SIZE]

It's the equivalent of DRAGGING OUT THE DEAD CAT FROM THE CLOSET and stinking up the house (forum)?


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

DunPainted said:


> [SIZE=12pt]Is there a possibility we can put this thread out of it's misery?[/SIZE]
> 
> It's the equivalent of DRAGGING OUT THE DEAD CAT FROM THE CLOSET and stinking up the house (forum)?


[SIZE=18pt]OMG! DUN PAINTED! THAT WAS FABULOUS! CAN'T STAND IT! ROLLING ON THE FLOOR![/SIZE]

[SIZE=18pt]And Tag! I love you too![/SIZE]

[SIZE=18pt]And Mary Lou................OH I NEEDED A GOOD LAUGH................I have painters CRAMP![/SIZE]


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## Lauralee (Feb 20, 2006)

I want to thank all of you for my evening entertainment tonight.

Throwing a wobbly was just about the funniest thing I have ever heard!

Tagalong your post was priceless!!!

And Carol I am still laughing at some of your comments!!!!

LOL still giggling here!

This stuff is great.


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Feb 20, 2006)

Threads like these do have their purpose and if you are female you will understand it. Since most women are wired to beat a dead horse, to me a 15 page (so far) discussion of subject of slaughter almost seems appropriate.




:

Carol I think you need some fresh air, the paint fumes are frying your brain if think that any of that was least bit funny.



:

All I know for sure is that when a "farmer's mentality" prevails, slaughter can never be seen as anything else but something to be condoned, just part of the way things have always been done and always will be. When animals are considered just tools, they cease to have value past what they can be used for.

I do want to see an end to slaughter. I may not in my lifetime but I do have hope the human race will eventually evolve past the need for it by taking responsibility for what we do. I can only do whatever tiny part I can to not contribute to it or to anything that causes torment and pain to any animal. Maybe in time so will more and more others. Hope springs eternal.


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

Oh Shirley......get a grip! I think dragging a dead stinking cat out of a closet is quite funny and so do others.

Slaughter no......not funny. And if you think I am laughing at anything to do with slaughter you are wrong.

As far as beating a dead horse..........no kidding! We just buried a slaughter thread last week. Between slaughter, religion and politics....(lets add a little razoring thread in there too :lol: ) Oh......Rory is right......let's add in those Arab miniature threads too! I need to go stick my head back in the paint can!



:

Edited because Rory came out of her corner (see post below) :new_rofl:


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## Dontworrybeappy (Feb 20, 2006)

tagalong said:


> _*wobbly starting....*_
> 
> Well* I'm* about to throw a wobbly. *A BIG one.*
> 
> ...


I think you said things quite well, I loved your wobbly!

I always have to wonder how many people that think horse slaughter is inhumane and "not-to-be-tolerated" have leather shoes, handbags, saddles, harnesses, etc... how many of them eat meat (or kill/murder plants) to survive?

We actually had someone leave our property once in disgust because we had a turkey we were raising in our backyard for Thanksgiving. They said it was horrible and cruel to do that - we should just buy it in a store the way THEY DO! *huh?*

It all just doesn't make sense to me. We raise sheep, and have raised our own pig now and then, and yes, we've eaten the results. I've also been there for each of them to be butchered, and it's always been a quiet process. Meat tastes better from non-stressed animals.

I have not sent any of my horses to be slaughtered. I've been there with them to be euthanized and paid for the truck to come take them away. That's the end for them that I am more comfortable with than not *knowing* what they've gone through. I feel I owe it to them. It's my right as well as my responsibility to make these sort of difficult decisions for any animal in my care, as it is for anybody else.

All this said, I do NOT want to see equine slaughter completely stopped in this country. It serves several purposes and the alternatives are not good.


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## runamuk (Feb 20, 2006)

Vertical Limit said:


> Oh Shirley......get a grip! I think dragging a dead stinking cat out of a closet is quite funny and so do others.
> 
> Slaughter no......not funny. And if you think I am laughing at anything to do with slaughter you are wrong.
> 
> ...


Carol please send me to a corner I told myself I wouldn't come back...BUT you forgot one

lest we forget ARAB type.......



:

back to my rock with me



:


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Feb 20, 2006)

Hmmm



: a little mareish today are we? But hon I insist you get your head out of that paint can before you do some permanent damage! You know, the first sign of that is replying ad naseum to slaughter threads and by time you're laughing about dead stinky closet cats it could be too late! :new_shocked: :lol:

Razoring? now there is subject that gets pretty funny! Let's pass that paint can and see who can do the best job of shaving their horse's whole head slick a babys bottom. :new_tomato:


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 20, 2006)

Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too said:


> But hon I insist you get your head out of that paint can before you do some permanent damage! You know, the first sign of that is replying ad naseum to slaughter threads and by time you're laughing about dead stinky closet cats it could be too late! :new_shocked: :lol:


Oh Shirley.....I love you too! But the damage is done! And here I find you right here with me having a wobbly over my paint can! :lol:


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Feb 20, 2006)

snork! :cheeky-smiley-006: :lol:


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