# Measuring my horse - how to get an accurate measure and other questions



## Sheryl (May 12, 2012)

Hi Again, I am the person who has the rescued "pony" bought at auction, of unclear background (story is that he is a reject from a local Shetland breeder, but who knows). I have posted here a few times about him because this is such a knowledgable group of drivers - appreciate the help extended even though my equine is not a mini.

Anyway, I had measured him when he was at my friends house over the winter and got 11.3H. She measured him and thought it was closer to 11.2, but, he was quite green to handling and could be a bit antsy at that time. Yesterday, I had a helper with me while measuring for a harness, and much to my surprise his measurements fit into the rough guidelines given for a "B" mini or "small pony" rather then medium pony where I thought it might be based on height. So, I decided to remeasure his height, and I got 45" this time, or 11.1. His feet were recently trimmed, but that cannot explain a 2" difference!

Yesterdays measurements were taken with him standing on concrete and he was squared up - since we have come that far in his training. At this point, I no longer trust my ability to get an accurate measurement,




but what my real question is - what difference does it make? Well, I guess it is important for picking a cart, so would love some tips on how to accurately measure and ensure I got it right. We measured twice yesterday, moved him around and squared him up again, just to be sure and still got 45" .

I don't have his papers so there is no way I am showing him or anything, but I might like to do arena driving trials or even combined driving once he is a bit more seasoned. I have had no luck searching the internet to find out where his height fits into the current rules. I believe he is considered a small pony, but I wasn't sure if we needs a navigator based on his height.

As far as carts, his measurements tell me to be a bit more sensitive to weight and size then you might be for a pony as he is smaller then I realized.

I am having alot of fun training this pony. He is so smart and bold and has come so far. He is much "hotter" then I am used to in a horse, so we are just going slow and building a foundation. He has been put to cart in a very enclosed setting, but right now I am doing hours and miles of ground driving on the street, on trails, whatever I can think of, so he can see the world. I am so impressed with his little brain, very curious and even though he is very sensitive and a bit hot, he has so far behaved like a trusting sensible pony - nothing stupid. He used to be nervous about unloading from a trailer, but one 5 minute session and i have him quietly backing out (I know, nobody teaches small horses to back out, but I am primarily a rider of big equines, and I am fussy about my horses and trailering, must be able to ride in anykind of trailer, so backing out is important). I just think he is smart and so eager to learn and work. I love that attitude. He is also a little imp and full of silly antics so he keeps the hubby entertained too. As he says, he is a horse that wants to act like a dog and our dog is nearly as big as a horse, they seem to have a lot in common.

Long lining/ground driving has been soo much more fun then i thought it would be. I spent some serious time watching a real trainer to long lining a giant hunter/jumper type horse and it kind of clicked in my mind how to do this. I must be doing okay because my pony is so light on the rein, his steering is getting awesome and he seems to love doing it. What more could I ask?

As much as i like him, I am a little bit wondering if i should have bought a registered AMHR/ASPC so I could try shows and a few other things... as well as be small enough to buy a hyperbike!!! I think my pony is just big enough to sort of miss out on the mini fun.

In the meantime, I am going to keep working him as he is going to be an awesome driving pony - for me, or if I decide to go the mini route, for someone else. Anyway, with this poiny I see that i would mostly recreational and trail drive.

I was wondering if I can talk to someone who actually owns the TrailBoss cart. Very reputable company, and while I know brakes on a 2 wheel cart are controversial, I live in a neighborhood fraught with a series of small-medium hills and I can see a little braking really helping/assisting with the downhills especially with the mini/small pony trying to hold back. Anyway, I never see that cart mentioned on forums and just wondering if anybody out there owns one that might be willing to share their experiences with me. I am not quite ready to buy but I need to make the decision to committ to finishing this pony soon and am reaching the point where I need proper gear.... so I need to buy a cart later this summer to keep things going.

I have researched harnesses and sadly haven't found a bargain used so also need to decide to committ the money to new. I am not that fussy, but I know I will be happier wtih a medium to good quality harness - fit, comfort, looks etc. I prefer biothane have been looking at the comfy fit, camptown harness or the betabi harness from country carriages. I want something with a tree. All of those harnesses are $$ but have a good reputation I think. So, if I do decide to buy a new harness and year from now decide i want to go mini instead, will those "name brands" hold their value at all? I would hate to spend $700++ on a harness and have to resell it a year later for $250 or something.

Right now, I am ground driving with a homemade training rig. It is safe and works, but is ugly and isn't really suitable for doing more then long lining.

Okay, finally... maybe because I am a western rider and am around all these gamers and stuff... but WHERE IS DA BLING on a driving setup??? Now, I don't mean anything crazy, but he is a dark bay/brown horse and would look smashing with a little bit of "jewelry", I like some of the driving bridles that have the metal studs on them. I can't be the only one that would like to see at least a little gilt and flash!

The picture isn't the most flattering, but it is a good conformation type shot. He was learning that he could stand tied all by himself for awhile...

Thanks again for taking the time to read and advising me! I lurk here pretty regularly even though i don't post alot.


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## brasstackminis (May 12, 2012)

You want bling? LOL Well if you are thinking about CDE's the Bling is limited to a crystal on teardrops. I suppose you can go crazy in the marathon and change out your reins and some stuff for some color. They are not into shiny bling for those shows. You get to have a blingy-ish hat or scarf...but bling is not in! LOL now if you show in open shows...different rules. I am soooo done with breed shows personally. I like the idea of having a score card and judges comments as to why they placed me as they did. I can agree or disagree, but at least I know why I am placed where I am placed...I feel like I am competing against myself and it is slightly less political. So I have no desire to go for the beauty pagent type classes where beauty is in the eye of the beholder and changes with the wind. Just me, but I sacrifce the bling so I can get the judges opinions on paper. Fair trade for my personality. I hate ambiguity!

As for measuring the horse, triming actually makes a larger difference than you would think. As my chiropracter vet says, whatever you do at the bottom (feet level) is magnified at the top (withers). Your 1/4" off the hoof may actually change the height up to an inch! If you are using a stick with a level, if the ground is not level, your heights will be different. Then there is the ground...on a rock, in the dirt, it all makes a difference. Then there is the horse itself. If the horse is relaxed, he will measure shorter than if he is tense. Trainers have given me some crazy tips to get a horse measured in. Then are you meausring as a horse or a mini? I wouldn't worry too much about a couple of inches. The CDE classes are VSE, small pony and large pony and horse...here is a link so you can see the chart...look at page 18 of the document for a chart of heights. But if he is under 12 hands or 48 inches, he is a small pony so it really doesn't matter if he is 11 or 11.3 or 10.3 he is a small pony. It may matter in other driving venues but not the ones regulated by ADS rules.

http://www.americandrivingsociety.org/12_ads_rulebook/ADS%20Rulebook-2012-(final)-01Jan12(revised)x2.pdf


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## Sheryl (May 12, 2012)

Thank you, that is what i was looking for that I couldn't find! I knew small pony was somewhere in the 11-12H ballpark. If I am understanding this right, as long as he is UNDER 120 CM or 47.2 inches (11.3 H) he is small pony... woo hoo! I feel confident he is under 11.3

Your explanation makes me feel a little less crazy - I couldn't figure out how I could be so far off! I was measuring him on level concrete this time when I got the 45" or 11.1H and I measured to the withers since he isn't registered the "mini way" of measureing doesn't matter. Today, I hauled him to a friends house and she measured him on a stall mat and got 11.1 plus a hair, so I am feeling good about this measurement now!

I had a super fun day ground driving him with my friend. We went up and down neighborhood streets for probably 90 minutes, so I got a good workout too. She is training her big warmblood type to cart and today we put him to cart for the first time! (she has been working him for along time, maybe a year even, so he was ready). He was just pefect and we were so excited to see how well he did. Short spin around her outdoor arena a few times and then he was immediately put up for being so good!

Then I got to ride her really fast Tennessee Walking Horse so it was fun to go gaited! Busy horse day, I am tired but happy.


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## shorthorsemom (May 13, 2012)

Hi There, Most people skip the bling because it is rather difficult to clean the harness, soap collects around all those little thingys and also if the decorative studs are driven through the leather it can break more easily. I used to do "pony jobs" when I was a teen and drove a pair with those bling studs all over the harness. I remember it well, very pretty, not much fun to get or keep clean. Now for parades, bling can be very pretty, but for going cross country where you might be putting on some tug and strain, plain and strong is good IMO.


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## paintponylvr (May 15, 2012)

Had to reply, BIG GRIN, as it's been awhile while I've been doing both family and pony things! Most of your answers are here in 3 replies, but, I have a couple.

Who says backing a pony or mini out of a trailer is "wrong"? Not me - the more your pony will/can do - the better he handles - the better he will be in harness!

And back off a trailer isn't that hard! Mine actually prefer to back off - cuz it's scary to them to jump down from a height that's around their chests if we are parked in the open (I have a very tall trailer - w/ mobile home axles under it & no ramp). So we work on both! So, can you back him onto the trailer - even if it doesn't have a ramp? That's next, LOL.

Your pony looks like he could be either a classic shetland or modern pleasure bred shetland... the meassuring difference is simply everything the others all replied but remember this - a tense, dancing pony w/ a measureing stick can either measure taller or shorter than he actually is. I have several that I take measurements with a grain of salt - they tense and one "drops" as she won't stand square but will consistently park forelegs out and throw her head in the air (before she leaps sideways away from the stick) and another that goes wide eyed, tenses, takes a deep breath and seems to "grow" while we watch. Both need work to relax and stand square. I've gotten differnt measurements on the dirt barn floor, out in the pasture and on the paved carport floor. Yes, the differences can be several inches.

There are plenty of venues for driving even if you don't have a amha/amhr/aspc registered pony/mini. You can start with this guy and then if you want to show in breed shows branch out later when you are ready. If you have breed shows in your area - maybe check with trainers, attend the shows and see about working ponies with/for them. I wish I had that kind of opportunity - nothing really close or doable right now for me that way... I have to either train mine or have them trained for the ring and then haul out to show. I finally have one double registered filly that MIGHT make a breed show mare that could be shown at the AMHR class shows in our state... Now have to get her going.

Harness - I'm still learning and have been doing a lot of looking around on harness. This forum and a couple of others - very helpful! I've had homemade harness for training (still use it after three years - I have a lot of young ponies!), cheap leather harness (accident waiting to happen), cheap bio harness, cheap nylon harness (just yuk), more expensive bio harness for farm work (with "farm bling" - more on that later), and am looking at better made, high quality pairs harness now by the companies that you have mentioned. I believe that yes, any well made harness meant for the job - wether leather or bio/beta - will hold it's value and be re-saleable if it's not worn out. BUT you also have to realize that there might not be another person in the market for that type of harness at the time you have it for sale - need it to sell so that you can purchase something else, too. Another company with good quality harness, both leather & bio, is Ideal Harness - out of Canada.

Bling - a acouple of options there, LOL. For more expensive harness talk to Dale Lutke -he can custom make just about anything you want with any amount of bling. Resale value - not sure you'd get anything back depending on what/how you do the bling even though it is quality and well made... OR you can go thru Amish harness makers and do a combo of pleasure/marathon and farm style harness which will give you the "spots" bling. My farm harness is bio with farm spots (they also have Parade spotting - MORE bling). So it's shiny with enough bling to stand out. Work harness doesn't have a tree on the saddle - at all. I'm not sure the company I go thru makes a pleasure harness with a tree for the small ponies, either - you'd have to call and find out. Most Amish don't have websites, tho some now do some work that way - thru an outside party. My only regret was being "stupid" and getting a "black" set of hames. They are lower quality and painted - after one year the paint wears off the heavily used/strained parts and rusts immediately. My next set of smaller work harness will have Stainless steel hames and the current ones (4 sets) will eventually be replaced. It won't be any savings when I replace those and keep the "old" ones as decoration in my house or barn, LOL.

I don't know how to add a pic to the reply. I can post pics when do a new subject/post. Heres a link - Headshot 3 abreast This is the "bling" on the farm style headstalls. Yes, the nose band is missing from the middle pony. I haven't replaced it yet - it ripped out when I had a pony in a pair go "nuts" and caught it on the hame of the pony next to him. Right now it identifies which harness it goes to, LOL. These mares are 43" (darker silver mare on left in pic, hitched far right) down to 40.5 - hitched on the left but in right side of pic - at the withers. The "taller" mare's back is only a little higher than the other two, tho, as she has seriously high, defined witherf for a shetland. This is their first time 3 abreast - they've been hitched that way 2 times - the second time they were worked with a 3 horse evener and drug Firmosa trees knocked out of the ground by a neighbor from the rear of our property to the front and deposited in a burn pile. Pics didn't turn out good (U try handlng all those lines and gettting a good pic from the rear w/ raring to go ponies, LOL!!!). Side view - you can see the no tree work saddle which is not the same as a pleasure saddle.

Here is a pic of a pair w/ the cart (and a foal)... Yes, my working farm ponies trot, canter and gallop in pair harness pulling this heavy farm cart!!! This is a Pioneer forecart - Hafflinger sized so that I only had to get one to work larger cross bred ponies as well. It has a small pony tongue on it here. It's too heavy to have one pony pull by itself (well I think so - with proper pleasure/marathon harness with a wide - 4" - saddle - it might work). This pair is 40.5 and 41" tall. The filly will mature about the same height.

Cleaning - I hose off the harness while it's still on my sweaty ponies and if it's muddy (such as two weekends ago when we got stuck in what turned into a bog) - I use a scrub brush from the kitchen around the silver - not hard at all. It's bio so, no oiling required. Just hose off, some scrubbing and go.

O - your horsey day sounds like some of mine but I haven't ridden a gaited horse in years and would love to. What a great way to be tired!!


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## rbrown (May 16, 2012)

Sheryl said:


> Okay, finally... maybe because I am a western rider and am around all these gamers and stuff... but WHERE IS DA BLING on a driving setup??? Now, I don't mean anything crazy, but he is a dark bay/brown horse and would look smashing with a little bit of "jewelry", I like some of the driving bridles that have the metal studs on them. I can't be the only one that would like to see at least a little gilt and flash!


Me too! I've always been a crafty person, so I beaded Kandy's browband (nothing crazy, just enough to give it a little sparkle!), and I found a cool youtube video on making ribbon browbands and did that with Skip's bridle (I also "bedazzled" Kandy's liverpool bit, on the outside part, and thought it was the best idea ever



). I probably wouldn't use either browband for showing, but they're cute to use around the barn. Right now, I drive Skippy with a purple beaded crochet earnet I picked up at a tack swap and her purple sparkly ribbon browband, and everyone at the barn thinks she's totally adorable



(they also probably think I'm nuts!!)

My new bridle has a nice browband with little brass vertical pieces, I'm sure there's a technical name for them (clinchers, maybe??). My favorite bridle was one I borrowed for a show, and the browband had a very nice pattern in brass- very classy and looked awesome on my horse (that's the one in my profile pic).


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 18, 2012)

Hi Sheryl! I think you've been pretty well answered on the measurement question so I won't address that. =^)



Sheryl said:


> He used to be nervous about unloading from a trailer, but one 5 minute session and i have him quietly backing out (I know, nobody teaches small horses to back out, but I am primarily a rider of big equines, and I am fussy about my horses and trailering, must be able to ride in any kind of trailer, so backing out is important).


You know I'm the first to advocate treating the miniatures exactly like the big guys, but just as there are things you simply can't do safely with the big horses (like ground-driving with a cart attached, etc.) there are some few big horse things you can't safely ask miniatures to do and backing out of very tall trailers is sometimes one of them. Not only is it much harder for them to step down such a long ways but if they should slip they could easily get a leg far under the trailer and wrench something/cut something/fall over backwards and to me that's just not worth the risk. I'll teach them the _skill_, but I prefer not to unload them that way unless I absolutely have to! Just my opinion.







Sheryl said:


> I was wondering if I can talk to someone who actually owns the TrailBoss cart. Very reputable company, and while I know brakes on a 2 wheel cart are controversial, I live in a neighborhood fraught with a series of small-medium hills and I can see a little braking really helping/assisting with the downhills especially with the mini/small pony trying to hold back. Anyway, I never see that cart mentioned on forums and just wondering if anybody out there owns one that might be willing to share their experiences with me.


The TrailBoss is an older vehicle so I'm not sure there's many of them around. Talk to Bob at Graham Carriage Works, I bet he could put you in touch with some current owners. Brakes on a two-wheel cart can still be helpful, they're just usually too heavy for mini carts and you need a wide saddle so the downward pressure they will put on the saddle will not be painful for the horse. As a former rider you will know that a horse needs to round up to use their hindquarters going down hills and they're hardly going to do that if something narrow is digging uncomfortably into their withers!



Sheryl said:


> I have researched harnesses and sadly haven't found a bargain used so also need to decide to commit the money to new. I am not that fussy, but I know I will be happier wtih a medium to good quality harness - fit, comfort, looks etc.	I prefer biothane have been looking at the comfy fit, camptown harness or the betabi harness from country carriages. I want something with a tree. All of those harnesses are $$ but have a good reputation I think. So, if I do decide to buy a new harness and year from now decide i want to go mini instead, will those "name brands" hold their value at all? I would hate to spend $700++ on a harness and have to resell it a year later for $250 or something.


No worries there, used carts and harness often go very nearly for what a new one does if properly cared for. The only place you might run into a problem is if you have to order a unique size and then have trouble finding someone who needs that size.

Out of the vendors you have listed I would recommend Janie at Chimacum Tack, Country Carriages, or talk to Celine Rickards of Carriage Driving Essentials in CA about what she carries. She has multiple lines including Janie's ComfyFit harness, good-quality leather presentation harnesses, marathon stuff, and things for all budgets and tastes. For something larger than a mini I think I'd want to look into Zilco! They're a fantastic harness, well-designed and with many options, and the only reason I don't have one is because they're not the best in mini sizes. (That's the ComfyFit there IMO.)



Sheryl said:


> Okay, finally... maybe because I am a western rider and am around all these gamers and stuff... but WHERE IS DA BLING on a driving setup??? Now, I don't mean anything crazy, but he is a dark bay/brown horse and would look smashing with a little bit of "jewelry", I like some of the driving bridles that have the metal studs on them. I can't be the only one that would like to see at least a little gilt and flash!


Hehe! I like to play with my turnout a bit too but have had to find conservative ways to do so since I use my stuff in both the CDE and breed show worlds. If you look on Ebay for "diamante browbands" you can find some neat rhinestone stuff in pony sizes which would look STELLAR on a dark bay, and you can always get your bridle with emblems on the blinkers and teardrop! That's both traditional and attention-getting. Colored reins are fun and you can get matching colored browbands, neck- and hip-straps, etc. for a full marathon-style turnout. That'd be very gamer-esque with colored support boots! You can also buy fancy conchos (Showtime Tack has rhinestone versions) which can really bling it up or use a hot glue gun on a set of plain conchos to add whatever you want. I ordered my ComfyFit harness with patent on the saddle, Freedom Collar and breeching and I think with the blinker emblems and bright metal work it's very eye-catching.

Leia

Edited to add: Lutke harnesses are synthetic alright but WAY too fine for cross-country use in most cases and I don't believe they have a tree either. They are the top of the line show harness though! And yes R.Brown, I think those are called "clinchers."


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## Sheryl (May 20, 2012)

Thanks for all the bling suggestions and all of your response! I will definately check out the suggestion to add a little fun to the harness. .

I have been having alot of good sessions with this pony. I can't exactly explain why I had this little "breakdown" and started thinking I shouldn't keep him. He is smart, funny, athletic, forward and brave. He is also hot as a pistol and can be a fancy mover but he doesn't seem to meltdown or over-react; he seems to have a good mind. He keeps me challenged, but I have become a better horsewoman in recent years so I think I am up for it!I I decided to keep working with him and have ordered a comfyfit harness for him. I still haven't figured out the cart, but that is okay, we are taking it slow.

My pony is 11.1 so most of the carts for that size are over 100 pounds I think. I didn't think 130# was too bad... but I don't know.

I am really not that excited about showing, and you are right there are many avenues including just regular open shows that don't require registered horses.

I had a great session with the driving trainer and have all sorts of new things to work on - "leg" yields, turn on the fore, turn on the haunches. I can do all that with my current homemade training set up. The trainer seems to like him and is really happy at his basic training - stands still, responds to verbal commands etc.

I did have a question though, she said to teach them a word for right and left (you know, the old gee and haw thing). I thought this was only used for draft horses, but she said it is common and I can choose the words I want. She uses git and come - but I could never keep it straight. I am thinking of staying with the tried and true "right" and "left"


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 22, 2012)

Be aware adding "bling" to your blinkers needs to be done when the harness is ordered. Did you get a sliding backband saddle? It's well worth the extra money to upgrade and is especially important for a trail driver!



Sheryl said:


> My pony is 11.1 so most of the carts for that size are over 100 pounds I think. I didn't think 130# was too bad... but I don't know.


A-sized minis routinely haul Smart Carts and Bellcrowns at around 120lbs so your boy certainly ought to be able to!







Sheryl said:


> I did have a question though, she said to teach them a word for right and left (you know, the old gee and haw thing). I thought this was only used for draft horses, but she said it is common and I can choose the words I want. She uses git and come - but I could never keep it straight. I am thinking of staying with the tried and true "right" and "left."


"Gee" and "haw" specifically _are_ a draft thing, but carriage drivers typically use whatever words suit the individual driver to indicate to the horse they need to make a sharper turn. It helps prevent unnecessarily hard pulling on the horse's mouth and makes it clear to the horse that you're looking for a quick come-around instead of a more gentle bend or slowing down to pivot the vehicle. My original trainer used "come" and "get," I found for me it morphed into "come left" and "get right" and that works for me. Other people use "left" and "right" or simply say "come around" to indicate more speed in either direction. It's up to you.

Leia


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## susanne (May 23, 2012)

I use left and right, or for sharp, quick turns left-left and right-right.

You could always use port and starboard, I suppose.

In all seriousness, if you think you ever might sell your horse, you should probably use what the majority in your discipline use.


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## Jules (May 25, 2012)

susanne said:


> You could always use port and starboard, I suppose


A'hoy thar


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