# Cart NOT HAPPY



## rcfarm (Mar 6, 2010)

Bought this cart from a well known co. , when I recieved the 1 time. The wheels had different colored wood and wheels and shafts were lighter than rest of cart. Sent back shafts and wheels, this time they are visiably lighter than body of cart. I am so upset, I want to cry. Paid over 1000.00. thats alot for me. I just wanted a nice presentation cart. I feel I will stick out like a sore thumb in this cart. I emailed CO they said they have done all they can. What would you do?


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## rcfarm (Mar 6, 2010)

Another picture of cart


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## Sue_C. (Mar 6, 2010)

Wow...that is a very big difference...and they say they cannot do better than this? What crappy salesmanship this is! Is this the actual manufacturer, or a retailer? Are the new shafts and wheels even varnished?

I have seen several carts similar to this with painted wheels and shafts, they aren't what you wanted...but it is a fix, if nothing else can be done.


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## drivin*me*buggy (Mar 6, 2010)

Oh no! I see what you mean! They need to make that right for you. I would contact them again and explain this is not what you ordered and that it needs to match...they can do better than that.

Angie


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## Relic (Mar 6, 2010)

My first thought was it looks like a patched together cart from different carts because of the color. l would for sure get on the horn and ask for a full refund or a whole new cart all the same shade...if it's new why should you have to redo it right of the bat. Last fall l bought my daughter a Jerald with wooden wheels basket and shafts and it's all the same shade and just beautiful...


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 6, 2010)

Have the people you bought this from seen the pictures? I can't help but think that if they knew there was this much discrepancy between the 2 parts they could do something about it. The body has been stained and the shafts and wheels are not. I actually like the look of it but if you don't then I would really hound them to fix it!


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## RhineStone (Mar 6, 2010)

As a carriage builder myself, it looks like there are two different woods. This is VERY common. It would be _uncommon_ to use the same wood throughout. Generally, the wheels and shafts are made from hickory. There is A LOT of variation in that wood. I have seen wheels with different "colored" spokes on the same wheel. The heartwood will be much lighter than the outer portions of the same log. The reason they are built of hickory is that it breaks "cleaner" than oak, which tends to splinter more. You want your shafts made of that wood because they are next to the horse. Same for wheels. It is a very tough wood, and also takes well to steam bending, like on the felloes (wood rims) and shafts. If it is NOT hickory, then I would definitely send it back. Using hickory is a "given" for carriage builders. I don't know of any builder that would make those parts out of anything else.

The dash and floorboards look to be of oak. My guess is maybe a red oak. Of course they are not going to look the same, especially with just a protective finish (poly or spar urethane, or varnish) and not stained. Carriage builders tend to save their hickory for the other parts like I mentioned, so again this is common.

We bought a meadowbrook once, and again the wheels and shafts were of hickory, and the floorboards, seat, etc. were ash. It was a

very light cart, because ash is a lighter weight wood. And yes, it had a different look to the different woods. All of the rest of the "natural finish" (not painted) carts we build all have the same variation, but we tend to stain ours and might use more stain on the shafts than the box so that the "color" is more uniform.

If the Jerald is more uniform, it's probably because there is less wood on it. Usually, there is no wood dash or spares box. It is probably easier to find wood that will "match" the shafts and wheels, unless they actually used hickory on the floorboards. At least the builder did use the same wood on the box here, and not white oak on parts and red on others, etc.

If around $1K is all you paid, I wouldn't stress out too much. I don't mean to insult you, but if you wanted it to totally match, that would include mixing stains, which is going to cost you more. Besides, (good) judges understand that there will be a difference in the woods and the "colors". Also remember that your wood is going to "age" giving you a bit of a different look in the future. If it is polyurethaned, you may need to have to redo the finish in 3-5 years anyway, so then you can have it stained if you want.





Myrna


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## mydaddysjag (Mar 6, 2010)

I understand that mixing custom stains might cost more, but if they sold her the cart and the photo she was shown was a cart of uniform color, then she should have received a cart that is uniform in color. If they are using wood the does not match, then I would consider it up to them to stain it to match. If they cant send you parts that match, I would return the cart at their expence, or request a partial refund to cover the cost of what it will cost you to remove the finish, stain the lighter parts, and varnish the parts. I am experienced in furniture restoration and getting a stain to match the body of that cart would not be hard.


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## RhineStone (Mar 6, 2010)

My husband corrected me. The sapwood is lighter, not the heartwood.

I disagree, I don't think it is up to the builder to stain the cart if it was ordered without it. Staining certain parts is going to add cost to the builder. The majority of cost of a cart is not in the parts and finish (unless it is really good quality automotive paint), it is in the time. Most people just don't understand that. Building a mini cart costs just as much in time as a big one. I know exactly the amount we have in each of our vehicles.

Wood is cheap. Stain is cheap. Time costs $.

I think the cart looks fine, and Leia has called me the "Turnout Guru" here.



It doesn't look like every other boring natural finish vehicle (which is why we stain most of ours). I think it will turn heads, and not in a negative way!

Myrna


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## R Whiteman (Mar 7, 2010)

I am not familiar with the cart maker. I would say that they leave a great deal do be desired if they can not match the colors any better than that. I disagree with those that think that what you received is acceptable. If they use different kinds of wood to save a buck then it is up to the folks making the cart to match the colors , not for you to accept it. Unless they advertised them looking like yours or you ordered your cart unstained I would create a stink until they fixed it or made it right by you. Make a copy of the carts that they advertise and then take of picture of yours. If they are not the same then contact your state's AG office and file a complaint. better yet contact the state they do business in and file a complaint.

Please let me know the maker by PM so I can stay away from their products. By the way a 1000 dollars is more than enough to expect to get a quality product. They should make it right if you did not get what you ordered.


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## mydaddysjag (Mar 7, 2010)

I still disagree that what you received is acceptable. If you purchase something and the picture shows it being one color, it should come being one color.

The only way I could see this as acceptable is if the sales ad said something to the effect of "due to natural colors of wood, cart is not uniform in color"

so that when ordering, you knew that the cart may not be all the same shade. Please PM me where you purchased so I can steer clear of them as well.


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## rcfarm (Mar 7, 2010)

Hi

The stain is suppose to be golden oak. I even went back and forth with her to make sure that would be good stain for my horses. We had numeral phone conversations, before she ordered cart. To me it looks like NO stain was applied to wheels and shafts. Just makes me so upset :arg! I did email about 5 pictures to Company, same answer They have done all they can. QUOTE!

Its not just 1 time , this the 2 time wheels and shafts have different color. To me it looks like no stain was applied.


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## RhineStone (Mar 7, 2010)

mydaddysjag said:


> "due to natural colors of wood, cart is not uniform in color"


Please remember to put this statement in your mind on EVERYTHING that you order made from wood. Wood is a natural product. Hickory doesn't take stain as easily. I can see where the oak would take the stain better. That is why it is used in a lot of wood furniture, etc. It has a beautiful grain. If you made the entire vehicle out of hickory, #1 - Hickory would become TOO expensive to build wheels and shafts out of it. Hickory is a hardwood that takes time to grow. It's not like they can produce it in a factory! #2 - People would complain about the lack of "pretty wood". Hickory isn't used for it's beauty, but it's functionality. I dare anyone to find a good carriage made entirely out of hickory. If Jerald is doing it, again, they don't really have a lot of wood on their vehicles! And they charge too much for their vehicles because they practically have a monopoly on the market.

Also please remember this about bentwood. It won't be exactly bent the same, as the wood will bend itself back in some places. It doesn't matter who builds it.

If you are dealing with an Amish builder, they don't always put the "extra mile" into the product. Some do, and those guys get MUCH MORE for their work. I think I know who the builder is. I have seen the finish they put on their vehicles. It is adequate, but not an awesome finish. If I were building that vehicle, I would have tried to put more than one coat of stain on the wheels and shafts, but one coat of Golden Oak is not going to change the color of hickory that much. A different color might have changed it more, but one coat still won't make the wood uniform.

Myrna (who believes that every driver should take their cart apart once to really learn about their vehicle) (with the help of another experienced driver, of course.)


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## rcfarm (Mar 7, 2010)

Myrna, I respect your opioin as you are a cart maker yourself. This Co. has been in bussiness for 15 years! I expected a professional job. There is overspray on wheels, and small black paint dots around single tree.

But, I disagree with you about 1000.00 , and not to stress.

All the pictures on her web site are showing nice carts,( not like mine) Thats what I expected. I do not believe I am asking too much!

There is no disclaimer about the different woods, I might have gone for a more darker stain. I will if we can resolve this.


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## R Whiteman (Mar 7, 2010)

I went to the web site of the company that sells the cart. None of the pictures they have on the site had the two-tone cart listed. In fact they have the color chart that allows a choice. I am not sure what happened with this cart but the company has dropped the ball on this one. They need to step up and make it right. If they don't, it would appear that the cheapest fix would be to replace the floorboards with a lighter wood. You could also sell it to someone that thinks it is a lovely turnout and buy a better one from another company.

Good luck,

Ron


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## Carriage (Mar 7, 2010)

Hopefully a cart maker will be wearing both hats of the builder and the end user. Having both perspectives in mind through-out the entire process should greatly alleviate dissatisfied customer/friends.

I can see both sides of the disagreement here however in the end I know what I would do as the builder. The over-spray problems were the clincher for me.

While the price tag was a considerable one for RC, I would feel fairly confident in saying that the margin on this cart is VERY slim and doesn't allow any room for the fixing of errors before the builder becomes "upside down" on this particular rig, especially after shipping. If this is the case it still does not relieve the builder of responsibility to the customer as it is the builders responsibility to price their goods according to prudent business practice. Trust me, we all hate to raise prices but it is imperative to do so for business longevity.

Then the aspect of ethics integrity comes into play. Whether you are poor or fabulously wealthy, you own nothing of greater value than your name and word. Sometimes this means that you take it in the shorts to make something right. And yes sometimes, you go way out of your way, whether its your fault or not, to make things right for that customer/friend. One does so, not just to retain ones good name and publicity, but because its the right thing to do, no matter the cost.

As I don't play with wood or stains, I would defer to Miss Myrna and her expertise in this area and clearly see and concur with her points.

Lastly, I think that Mr. Ron's second post on the matter is more cogent and a more proper course of action should this Mfr. refuse to step up into the world of builders who hold the above described code as sacrosanct.

Bb


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## RhineStone (Mar 7, 2010)

Thanks Bb for your points. I agree with you wholeheartedly. Yes, we as both builders and end users of our vehicles, as well as builders for our fellow carriage drivers, strive to produce a great product. Our vehicles are class winners. Our name is on the back of every vehicle we produce. We stand next to that integrity. And we are going to charge for it.

I didn't want to come right out and say it, but yes, knowing how much a vehicle like this costs to build, it wouldn't take long to get upside down on it at that price. Basically, mini vehicles are priced on what the market will bear, and not so much as to the actual cost. My husband refuses to take a "pay cut" to produce an average product for what someone will pay for it. Lots of Amish will. Granted, they don't have the markup that we pay for wheels, etc. because they are the initial producer of the products. We purchase those specialty parts from the Amish because there is so much time involved, it is not worth it for us to build a wheel when we can buy one. It is an art to build a wheel, and it takes special machines to do it.

My whole purpose in posting initially was to help drivers understand WHY the situation might be the way it is from the builder's perspective, to help you understand the use of different woods. Personally, we would not send out a product in such a condition, but again, it would cost you more.

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Mar 7, 2010)

BTW, there doesn't NEED to be a disclaimer about using different woods. EVERY carriage builder uses different woods on carriages. Every antique carriage has the use of different woods on the same vehicle. It has been that way for over a hundred years! Different species of wood have different uses. Maple and ash paint well. Maple turns well and makes good spindles. Oak is strong and stains beautifully, but paints terribly. Please reread my other posts to learn why hickory is used (unless the builders are idiots!).

I have seen some BEAUTIFUL carriages using different woods. We have a friend that used Bird's Eye maple on the box, we made an absolutely gorgeous cart with cherry, I already told you about our Meadowbrook with ash, etc. They ALL have hickory on the wheels and shafts. They all stained up differently. The builder has to account for that, but there is almost no way to make it entirely uniform. If you want a totally uniform cart, paint it! (But don't paint it yourself, you won't be happy with the result! There is a LOT of technique to that, too!)

I hope someday you can get some sense of peace from your experience. Again, I think your cart looks cool and not like every other cart! There is something to be said for "standing out in the crowd", especially if your horse is performing well!





Myrna


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## R Whiteman (Mar 7, 2010)

When we buy a carriage or cart we depend on the maker to know about such things as stain, wood, suspensions, and other materials that go into making the cart work well and look like the pictures we look at when ordering it. They are the experts and are supposed to know how to get things to match up. I feel that this company has failed to live up to their obligation at this point. This is posted on their web page,"WE PRIDE OURSELVES ON OUR SERVICE LEVEL TO OUR CUSTOMER! ... "

I know of one cart maker that discovered a problem with a bolt on one of their carriages. They recalled every one of the carriages he had ever made to make sure there were not going to be a problem. I know that a major company had a problem with a suspension. They changed the system and did repairs to all the carts for free. Things do happen. It is how the company treats people during those times that stick with people; not the 10,000 carts or items they have sold in the past that worked just fine. I shop at a tack store several thousand miles from me because I know she will make any thing right. Yes, I sometimes pay more but not much, and it is worth the price to know you will get that kind of customer service. I hope this company realizes that this may cost them more in future sales than the amount they will lose to make this right. The fact that the person even had to asked twice tells me a great deal about the company. I would not recommend anyone buying from them on the chance they would get the second two-toned cart ever made by the builder. I also don't believe we should take this kind of treatment and we should use all legal means available to help us recover our loss.

Ron


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## Carriage (Mar 7, 2010)

"My husband refuses to take a "pay cut" to produce an average product for what someone will pay for it."

We made the same decision many years ago Myrna. Also its more crowded at the bottom and more difficult to find a niche, especially if you are not predatory. Not that some top manufacturer's are not predatory, cause they are or at least appear to be. In the end, doing the right thing all the time has to be nearly the sole motivator. It is either inborn or not. Perhaps a little constructive shame-ing is in order.

In the end RC, I hope that this mfr WILL do the right thing in your eyes. I think you will save much time and frustration by following up on some of the constructive suggestions made to try to rectify the dissatisfaction on your part. Being an old law dog I would consider any legal remedy suggested to be rather "wispy" as to merit. On the other hand, insanity occurs in the "courts" everyday.

Bb


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## SampleMM (Mar 7, 2010)

From a business point of view, you are the customer and you are not happy; therefore, the cart manufacturer needs to step up and fix the color problem.

If it were my business, I would want you happy because I want to keep your business and you to send your friends to me. I sure hope this matter is resolved and

I can totally understand how you feel. A thousand dollars is a lot of money to me and I'm not exactly poor.






BTW, my husband bought me a very similar cart for Christmas that does match. I wonder if it is the same company?


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## mydaddysjag (Mar 7, 2010)

I dont think every wooden item I order needs to mention it might be mismatched, however if the seller knows its mismatched due to using different woods and insufficient stain, I think it should be mentioned before shipping. Its obvious by looking at the pictures that this seller uses to sell the cart that they indeed are capable of making the cart uniform in color. If you purchased an expensive kitchen table that had a different color legs from table top and did not mention being two colored, would you be satisfied?


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## whitney (Mar 8, 2010)

It's simple did they advertise a picture of this cart? Does it look like that cart? If, not send it back for a full refund. I've ordered an easy entry wood cart, meadowbrook type cart and have an all wood show cart now, with I'm sure different woods used and they all match. Yours is simply unacceptable. Shame on them. I can tell you customer service WILL make or break these guys.


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## Reble (Mar 8, 2010)

Sending this back again, I am sure it is becoming expensive, are you responsible for the cost of shipping?

I think I would try to talk about a part refund, so you can go buy some stain and try to match it, if possible, just another suggestion that might help.


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## rcfarm (Mar 9, 2010)

Update on cart, They want me to send back the wheels and shafts AGAIN. Also a floor board to try to match. The bad part is they want me to pay for packing materials. I told her my husband had thrown out what they came in this time. I also told her no I could not cover the cost of packing. So she is asking builder to see if he will send some.

This has been very frustrating, I ordered cart beginning of Dec. 2009, now its March 2010. :arg!


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## ClickMini (Mar 9, 2010)

Good luck to you. At least they are trying to make it right now. I sure am sorry you have had to go through this.


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## RhineStone (Mar 9, 2010)

rcfarm said:


> This has been very frustrating, I ordered cart beginning of Dec. 2009, now its March 2010. :arg!


I don't know what kind of time frame your dealer told you, but in the big scheme of things, that's not that long, especially if it is custom built. When we order parts from the Amish, we try to plan at least 3-6 mo. in advance just to receive the parts. Amish don't work on the same "time frame" as you and I. They might have cow milking, horse trimming, barn cleaning, etc. to do as well during their day. And since they don't generally have electric tools (maybe generator operated), it takes them longer to construct. There may even be a delay in shipping, as they will wait for a load to be going somewhere before they can ship. They rarely do the driving themselves.

I just don't want everyone to think that builders can spit these out in a few hours. We can have 60+ hours in a vehicle and that's after the bentwood and wheels are constructed. And you have to consider time for glue/paint/stain/varnish to dry along the process. (My husband also has a "real" job, so we work on carriages in "hobby" time...)

Myrna


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