# Who else gets tired....



## Riverdance (Nov 23, 2011)

Do not show the true horse?

I am so tired of looking at horses who have had professional shots, they look fantastic. Nice high topline, thin throat latch, long legs, lots of neck... and then you see the horse in real life and wonder if they changed horses on you?

At the World show I have seen photographs of beautiful horses attached to stalls of that horse, then when I look in the stall, I see something totally different then what the picture shows.

Sure makes it hard to buy a horse without going to the farm to see it in person. Years ago I bought several horses (that cost a lot of money) on professional shots. When I went to the farm to pick them up (two day drive one way), the horses looked NOTHING like the pictures and not one was worth keeping. I lost my shirt with those horses.

I am starting a search for a new stallion for sometime in the future and one woman I contacted refused to take any new pictures of her boy. Turns out that she just bought him and was reselling him. (must have been something wrong with him). I told her I would not even consider buying another horse without regular, non professional pictures of a horse that I could not see in person. She lost a possible sale.

Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored. Some professional photographers can make a donkey look like a really nice miniature horse.

I know that people can make a great looking horse look really bad, but still, I would rather have a home shot and see what the true horse looks like.


----------



## heartkranch (Nov 23, 2011)

I completely agree!


----------



## mdegner (Nov 23, 2011)

I do not agree that "every professional shot is doctored". Some are, others are not. I have seen some absolutely fabulous candid shots taken in the ring and then immediately uploaded for all to view at a show and they were not doctored.

I understand, however, the point you are making so, why don't you just ask to be provided some non-professional shots? Almost everyone has either a digital camera or even a camera on their cell phone these days and could take some. If someone refuses, that should tell you something . . .


----------



## midnight star stables (Nov 23, 2011)

I'm one who does not doctors a photo, and have no clue how to. None of my professional or advertising ads are doctored either. Just saying, not "all" are.






I have to admit though, my horses don't always look super pretty and ready to walk in the show ring... Sometimes they look like horses!!






!!

You are very right about wanting "normal" pictures though, they can really show a different horse.


----------



## Becky (Nov 23, 2011)

> Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored.


I totally disagree with that. While I am certain that some professional photographers do alter photos, not one professional photo on my website by the photographer who does my farm shoots, alters horses in the pictures. I will not allow it and she does not do it.

Horses that we photograph, are generally conditioned, bathed and groomed so they will look like show horses and perfect for that day. Some, however, are simply pulled in, bathed and trimmed up. What you see is what you get!

However, those same horses in winter coats will indeed look like hairy yaks and not the same as the day they were painstakingly photographed during warmer months. But, a good horse, is a good horse and the quality will shine through. No altering needed.


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 23, 2011)

> I understand, however, the point you are making so, why don't you just ask to be provided some non-professional shots? Almost everyone has either a digital camera or even a camera on their cell phone these days and could take some. If someone refuses, that should tell you something . . .


I have asked and have been refuses, so I move on to look at others.

I will not buy a horse anymore on professional shots. For sure not doctored shots. I have learn to tell what shots have been doctored. There is one photographer out there taking pictures of Minis who doctors just about every shot and I am not talking just about the top line.


----------



## Riverrose28 (Nov 23, 2011)

I've come out of the ring, gone and put my horse away, then gone up to the photo trailer and waited for the photographer to bring the memory chip in. then viewed my photos and had them printed right there in front of me, so I know they are not doctored. Not to say theren't aren't some that do it, but none I've met.

I do agree that some out of the pasture shots are needed when considering a purchase. I personally can't afford a pro at this time, so all of mine are out of the pasture. I would like to have a program though to change some backgrounds, but that will need to wait too. I think there are plenty of professional photgraphers out there that are totally honest, just bring you show horse and they will take the pictures.


----------



## JMS Miniatures (Nov 23, 2011)

So agree, but ones I really have problems with are ones that you can so tell that they are doctored that makes me real hesitant to buy anything from that farm, and those don't even have to be professional photos.

You must take farm shots of your horses. I want ones that show both sides of the horse and I also want leg shots. A video is a huge plus too. People can't buy off professional pics alone I guarantee they will never look like the same horse. I know its winter time and the horses will be fuzzy but if that horse is nice people that have a good eye can look past the fuzz, you just got to take those pictures.


----------



## disneyhorse (Nov 23, 2011)

I had Liz M. Do photos of one of my stallions... She did NOT "doctor" any photos and actually didn't even offer!

I will say she is a very experienced photographer and does know how to get flattering shots and angles.

Isn't that why you'd pay for a professional? To get the most flattering pictures?

I have bought lots of horses and some have professional photos. Maybe I have a really good eye. I've not been disappointed.

Please don't make blanket negative statements about professional photographers that just aren't true. It would be like saying all horse sellers are dishonest, or all breeders only breed to make money on foals...


----------



## Sandee (Nov 23, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


> I had Liz M. Do photos of one of my stallions... She did NOT "doctor" any photos and actually didn't even offer!
> 
> I will say she is a very experienced photographer and does know how to get flattering shots and angles.
> 
> ...


Absolutely! If your paying for a "professional" picture then they should be good enough to take it without "doctoring" it. I know as I have some nice shots of my Shetland which I DON'T consider a "good looking" horse and he looks really nice in them. However, if I were to go take his picture he ends up looking like an old "work"horse.


----------



## targetsmom (Nov 23, 2011)

Not all photos (pro or amateur) are doctored but some of them certainly are. My advice is know the breeder/seller and only deal with those you trust.

I was about to say if the photo looks too good to be true, it may be doctored, but our 4 day old photo of Max was only cropped and is otherwise unchanged. He really did look like that. But you should still be cautious until you have more info or pics. We happened to mention to someone awhile back of our interest in a filly (from her photo) and this person happened to be present when the photos were taken and knew they were doctored. That really opened our eyes and cooled our interest.

We did buy a weanling (in 2004) just from her pro photos & a video and have not been disappointed AT ALL.


----------



## Karin - NaKar Miniatures (Nov 23, 2011)

I also have to agree that not all "professional" photos are doctored. None the photos on my website have been altered. You have to remember that the photos that are taken are what that horse looked like in that split second it was taken. I have taken photos of some of my horses myself and was surprised how good they looked. I just happened to catch that "look" in that particular split second. So, you can have a horse that actually looks "awesome" without the photo having been altered.

Taking an unflattering picture of a horse can also cost you a sale. I have tried to tie horses to the fence or somewhere to get photos and the photos are horrible. Most of the time the horse won't even look at you. They look in the opposite direction or even stand weird. Being by myself it is really hard to get decent photos without having someone else to help. Wish people would visit farms like they used to before the internet. We are just so busy these days, no body seems to have the time to go to a farm and "shop". Back then you actually got to "know" your buyers.


----------



## REO (Nov 23, 2011)

Nort was with a trainer (Becky) and she conditioned him. She had the photo shoot done.

I saw him in person, others saw him in person and he REALLY DID look like that! His body, face or conformation was *NOT* altered in his pro photos. Not by me or anyone else.

I was there (and other witnesses) were there during Pooka's photo shoot. That was Pooka naturally that day! He was not even conditioned! Just bathed and groomed by my friend Jules. Jules, Parmela and Parm's friend was there that day and they know that the horses at the shoot that day looked like that in real life. Pooka's photos did not get doctored either. Not by me or anyone else.

Liz did not alter them and she didn't offer to do it either.

So NO, not ALL pro photos have the conformation altered!

I wouldn't sell a horse from pro pics. I always go out and take recent ones (if I have not gotten recent ones lately) even if the horse is fat, furry and filthy. I show the horse as it stands.

If someone won't show you recent pics then you're smart to walk away.

But I get tired of people saying ALL pro pics are altered. I know for a fact they are not.


----------



## Genie (Nov 23, 2011)

I have had that happen a couple of times. Travel 8 + hours to see a horse that looks nothing like the pictures provided.

In one case it was a height issue and I told the seller that I would be bringing my measuring stick as the horse needed to be the height I was told. She said that she and her husband had measured three different times to be sure.

When I arrived I knew without using the stick the horse was taller than stated. Measured anyway and turned around and drove home, over 8 hours with an empty trailer.

Very trying


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Nov 23, 2011)

I agree that many are doctored, but not all. The good news is that we as the general buying public are becoming wiser about this issue and more savvy oursevles with our own computer. So what I advise every person that contacts me about a horse for sale is to take the pictures I send them (I always make sure the DPI is high enough) and enlarge it to 400% and LOOK VERY CLOSELY at it. If a picture has been doctored, I don't care how good someone is at it, if you make the picture large enough and look at it closely (I personally go around the entire outline of the horse) you can see if something has been altered. Could someone still fool me? Maybe, but not very likely. But even if I feel the pro pictures haven't been doctored to change conformation (I don't mind the removal of a lead or something in the background) I still must have just general conformation shots - both sides, legs, head, bite and preferably a video. Folks, take a video and stop it at every frame...talk about getting to see the true horse!


----------



## Wings (Nov 23, 2011)

It's a shame people are getting negative over pro pics. I've gone to a bit of expense to get nice pro shots of my horses and can promise that the horse was not altered in them.

I use a pro because their skill with a camera tends to catch the horse better then the average person will, and let's face it, it's very easy to make a stunning horse look like a donkey if you catch him at the wrong angle!





But also my pro shots tend to be taken at shows so my horses are well conditioned, cliped and presented to the best of my abilities. If someone views that same horse in the paddock a season later it may not look the same, but that has nothing to do with doctoring photos.

I think a balance needs to be struck. My last purchase I was able to view many pro shots from show days as well as a natural paddock image. I then viewed the horse in person, I think this last step is the most important as it is the only way you will truely see what you are buying.


----------



## targetsmom (Nov 23, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Folks, take a video and stop it at every frame...talk about getting to see the true horse!


I have to laugh at this one because that is exactly what I did with the video Parmela (StarRidgeAcres) sent me of Toffee! Not to see if it had been doctored, mind you, but to really see the horse's movement! Another one bought sight unseen we are thrilled with. How could I forget Toffee?


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Nov 23, 2011)

I am afraid I agree.

I do not think the intention here was to suggest that _every_ professional picture is automatically doctored, but to be very aware of the fact that some, maybe even a lot of them, are.

I have opened Mini World and fallen around laughing!

Anyone know the picture on the back of Mad Magazine- where you would fold it up to get the "true" picture?

Well, if you do not mind folding your magazine you can have hours of fun putting the necks back where they should be and seeing the "real " horse.

People- it is FRAUD to do this if the animal is being offered for sale or being campaigned at stud- it is false representation.

It is also laughable.

And it wastes peoples valuable time.

Of course we want to show our horses as well as we can, we all do, there is no harm in that, or in clipping, grooming, and generally showing the animal off to every advantage- BUT a good producer can take that animal form you, out of the field, and turn it back into the lovely animal you photographed last year- so, no harm done. When you alter an image there is nothing you can do to make the horse live up to it.

It is like having a professional "glamour" picture (gosh I hope that means to you what it does to me!) with soft lighting and loads of make up, and digital enhancement.

It is not the real you.


----------



## Tremor (Nov 23, 2011)

I've always taken pictures of my own horses. Sure, they're not professional, flattering, or show ready but they show my horses how they are. Side shots, front, and hind.

If I did have a stallion then I would personally only take pictures of those four sides. Heck, I'd be able to show monthly pictures, or even seasonally. I'm one of those people who is OCD about taking pictures to see how my horses have improved or haven't.

I myself have looked for stallions in the future and have found this to be difficult. I personally don't want to see pictures of the stallion in show. I want to see videos and conformation pictures. I wish more people did this so then I'd be able to see what I want or don't want. AND, no stretched necks! We need natural head sets!


----------



## maestoso (Nov 23, 2011)

I think it's silly to buy a horse without seeing it in person weather you have true photos or not, a video, whatever....it's just a bad idea. If I am considering buying even a 5 thousand dollar horse I would much rather spend the 300-400 dollars on a plane ticket to go see the horse in person before committing. It's the only way to be sure you won't be disappointed and the only way to be sure you can see everything....

If you are buying a horse for 1000 dollars, well I can understand not wanting to spend half the amount on a plane ticket to go see it...... but at that lower price you shouldn't be expecting anything that's going to go out and be a national champion.

I can certainly understand wanting "true" photos in addition to pro photos, but personally I don't deem that a reasonable substitute to seeing the horse in person.

I'm another who disagrees that all pro photos are doctored. While many are, the blanket statement is simply not true.


----------



## ruffian (Nov 23, 2011)

No not all pro photos are doctored. But some are, and when I can go through the mini mags, and pick the photographer out from the pictures WITHOUT looking at the signature, it's going too far.


----------



## sedeh (Nov 23, 2011)

I love the professional shots I have of my horses....and none of them have been doctored. Some are performance pics and many different photographers. I love my "Liz" pics also. It also depends on how old the horse was when pictures were taken! I went back to look at a stallion that I was sure I would buy based on his photos but didn't really like him in person. Of course the picture was his yearling photo and when I saw him he was a chunky 5 yo.




And it also depends what time of year you're looking. Hard to tell what they look like in their winter woolies! Okay...I do have to stipulate...sometimes the pictures are "doctored" but only by removing lead lines!


----------



## Tab (Nov 23, 2011)

It is best to see the horse honestly represented in casual photos. Real life, straight out of the pasture. I love the photos of a few top stallions, they look good without special measures. You want to represent reality as much as possible so that when people come to visit they won't be disappointed. Pro photos are great if you keep your horse in show shape most of the time. It is cold here, and so horses only look peak about 3 months out of the year (once they shed or are clipped). I suppose that could come as a shock if professional photos are used the most. Doctored photos are a-ok if it is removing a lead rope, weeds, stray hairs, or items in the background. Altering the horse itself is not cool, and is it really the norm?


----------



## Carolyn R (Nov 23, 2011)

I sympathize with the photo scenario. In the past when I was building my breeding herd, I grew very tired of owners refusing to send recent or somewhat recent shots of the horses. No you can't see what is under the coat, but you can see if they look groomed, if they are on a flat surface you can get a glimpse of their feet, the surroundings they are in, not to mention if they even remotely represent their pro photos. I found it all very frustrating.

When I sold off my breeding stock, I went above and beyond snapping shots, it didn't matter if the shots were from a week before, someone wanted more, off I went to take more. I appreciate looking at a horse that is spit shined and polished to the nines, I appreciate what goes into that, but it is nice to see and unaltered photo of a horse in the off season.


----------



## Minimor (Nov 23, 2011)

I would never buy a Mini from a pro photo--not even an unretouched one. The Liz photos, for instance, are lovely and show the horses off to their absolute best advantage. But, that still isn't what that horse looks like every day--not in most cases--that photo is just a moment in time where the photographer has gotten the absolute best post out of the horse. I like to see what the horse looks like on an average day, when he's just standing around in the pasture, posed in a natural stance. I want to see just average photos.

I've bought many horses without going to see them; in most of those cases I bought the horse without seeing more than 3 or 4 average photos. I have never been disappointed in any of them; in pretty much every case the horse has turned out to be nicer than his photos showed. If I like a horse when I see a rather poor photo of him I know I'm going to like what I see when I see that horse out in my pasture. If I were to buy a horse based on an absolutely perfect pro photo, there's a very good chance that I'm going to be disappointed by what I see when I look out the window & see that horse out in the pasture.

Do some seriously lengthen necks on the horses in their photos?? I haven't seen any of those--either I haven't paid attention or I haven't been looking at the right photos.


----------



## Jean_B (Nov 23, 2011)

Such a Carte Blanche "all are doctored" statement is simply ludicrous. Every photo on my website that was professionally taken - I can attest without any hesitation and would even take a lie-detector test...they are NOT doctored, and I know for a fact that Jodie would have smacked me up side the head, got in her vehicle and left if I had even hinted that she should do such a thing. As you said, if you are leary of pro photos, ask for pasture pics. And if they don't want to take any more, that's their choice...now it's up to you whether or not to jump in your car and check the horse out in person or walk away.

Me? I'm not going to waste my time taking additional pictures because that's the way my horses looked...and if you aren't happy with that, you can go elsewhere. It works both ways.

And yeah, I'm BAAACCCKKK! Watch for the Second Edition announcement.


----------



## Wings (Nov 24, 2011)

Jean_B said:


> Such a Carte Blanche "all are doctored" statement is simply ludicrous. Every photo on my website that was professionally taken - I can attest without any hesitation and would even take a lie-detector test...they are NOT doctored, and I know for a fact that Jodie would have smacked me up side the head, got in her vehicle and left if I had even hinted that she should do such a thing. As you said, if you are leary of pro photos, ask for pasture pics. And if they don't want to take any more, that's their choice...now it's up to you whether or not to jump in your car and check the horse out in person or walk away.
> 
> Me? I'm not going to waste my time taking additional pictures because that's the way my horses looked...and if you aren't happy with that, you can go elsewhere. It works both ways.
> 
> And yeah, I'm BAAACCCKKK! Watch for the Second Edition announcement.








I have a nice collection of show photos for those who have shown and paddocks shots of those horses as well. Just paddock shots of broodies and foals that I'm even happy to use for advertising. But quite frankly I'd be hesitant in the middle of winter to snap new paddock shots as my nice horses vanish under a pile of winter hair and mud, and I'm not going to bathe them just for a new set of photos that will not do them justice and for a person who may or may not purchase.

I have bought a few sight unseen, I saw enough in the photos to pick qualities I liked the look of and they where at low enough prices that it wouldn't matter. But anything high priced has always been inspected in person, nothing else will give you quite the same experience as a hands on, in person expection. Plus you get to meet the seller face to face, see the conditions the horse has lived in and many other things that an online purchase does not afford you.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Nov 24, 2011)

I am not sure it was the intention of the OP to suggest that every single pro picture in the whole world is doctored- I took it to mean that every picture she had been sent or had looked at had been- I would be interested to hear her input on this??


----------



## wildhorses (Nov 24, 2011)

This Topic Really P--sses me off. I usually bite my tongue but, I have had it with this topic. For you to say that all professional photos are doctored, is simply slander. That is not true. I find it funny that over the years, you, the person that started this topic, have used many professional photos of your horses on your website, taken by one of the top photographers in the industry, and sure wasn't a problem then. I am also tired of seeing one farm advertise on the sales board complaining about professional photos and professional photographers "slapping their name under the horses nose". Well guess what, a photo is property, physical and intillectual, and it is that phototographers right to place their name or copyright mark on that photo. But again, that person that complains about it on the sales board has used professional photos for years on their website. A member of that persons family has always slapped their name on the photos they took and has made a living using profession photos for add design. Sure does seem two faced to me.

I have had professional photos taken by 3 of the top equine photographers in the industry over the years. When I have had the Liz photos taken on several occasions, more than 20 horses were photographed that same day, and I had printed proofs IN MY HANDS in less than 24 hours, EVERY SINGLE TIME. When I had horses photographed by the famous Stuart Vesty, I had a CD of my proofs IN MY HANDS in less than 1 hour after he unloaded his camera onto his computer. The third professional photographer took a bit longer as he had to catch a plane right after finishing with my horses, but had the photo proofs in my possession in less than 72 hours, and again, more than 30 horses were photographed in less than 2 days during that shoot.

Some of us have spent THOUSANDS of $$$$$$$$$$ to get beautiful, and professional photos taken of our horses, to represent them at their very best, to capture the look that an average Joe can not capture, to have a representation of what this horse has looked like and will never look like again once out of show shape, had several foals, etc. I think it's very unfair for people to come on here and make false accusations against photographers, directly or indirectly. Because of allegations like this, people discredit all of our professional photos, the assume every professional photo is photoshopped. It makes all of the HARD WORK and $$$$ go down the drain. If you want to post pictures of your hairy animal standing in mud with it's head hanging down and ears pinned back on your website, then good for you, that is your decision. But don't criticize or make false accusations against those of us that want to respresent our animals better than that.

For the past several years, I have been taking my own photos. I took some photography classes at my local community college, I invested in a good DSLR camera and quality lens, and I started taking my own photos. Now, people use that against me. I take nice photos and they say they look "too professional". It comes back to this mindset that "all photos are altered". The only photo editing I have ever done is Crop a photo, brighten or darken because I didn't get the exposure right, and removed a prop with an eraser tool. I am not a professional, have never claimed to be, have never charged a dime for any of my photos I have ever taken, but yet, because I take nice photos and try to represent my horses at their very best, it is held against me, and it costs me sales. And yes, people are disappointed when you send them "pasture pictures" because the horse will never look the same. They aren't clipped up and bathed, they don't have a pretty halter on, depending on where you live, they might be a wooly mamoth. I have never refused to send additional plain jane photos to people interested in horses.

Now, are there some professional photographers out there that can doctor horse photos, Yes. Are there some out there that are very good at it, Yes. Are there photoshop tricks that can make horses look better, sure there are. I know of a couple of Arab photographers that will take 5 different photos of a horse and paste it all together to form "the perfect picture". I am not denying that it happens, as I know it does. But here is the point that I want to make to all of you skeptics out there. I have taken several photo editing courses and design courses. Things can be done in photoshop, however they are SOOOOOOOOOOO time consuming that most people would NEVER mess with it. This is why I made the point I did earlier. If X photographer was going to alter my photographs and proofs, that would require (20 horses x average of 40 pictures per horse) 800 photos to be altered...in less than 24 hours. SIMPLY DOESN"T HAPPEN. They are not machines, they are humans. Not with the 3 photographers I have used. They charge $45.00-$60.00 per hour to remove objects from photos that you purchase. Do you really think that they are doing it to my proofs...to 800 photos...AND THE PHOTOS I HAVE PURCHASED HAVE ALWAYS BEEN IDENTICAL TO MY PROOFS. I have always stuggled to afford the $250.00 per horse to photograph, plus the $45.00-90.00 per photo for the images I purchased...do you really think I can afford to or would pay someone to falsify my photos? I don't think so! Nor would I want to. NOR HAS ANY PHOTOGRAPHER EVER OFFERED TO. I once asked one of them if there was anything they could do for the tooth bumps on one of my horses, and I got an answer that would suprise most of you....THE ANSWER WAS NO, I wont do ANYTHING to alter this horses confirmation.

Like Jean_B said, I stand behind every photo of my horse and would take a lie detector test to prove it. You hire a professional because of what they can do and what their knowledge is. The key to great horse photos is knowing confirmation of a horse, knowing the angles that best compliment the horse, and how to use the camera and lens to their best ability, and sometimes a lot of luck.

I am sorry, but I think it's time someone stands up for those of us that use or have used professional photographers and get a bad rap for it. If that offends people I guess I really don't care. I have bit my tongue long enough. Fire away.


----------



## MiLo Minis (Nov 24, 2011)

"Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored. Some professional photographers can make a donkey look like a really nice miniature horse."

Above is what the original poster said Jane and if that doesn't mean that "every pro shot is doctored" I am not sure what she was trying to say???

I am a graphic artist and as such know that all manner of things can be altered in a photo and it isn't necessarily the pro photog that does it as photo altering programs are available to anyone. I refuse to alter anything in a photo used to advertise a horse that changes it's true conformation. I will remove leadropes and halters and background distractions but not the horse's conformation. I consider that false advertising which is against the law and I won't be party to it BUT I do have the capability of doing so and therefore know that there are others that will and have altered conformation in a photo and they don't necessarily have to be professional photos.

The only real method of deciding whether you like a horse, or not, is to see the horse in the flesh.

I also know that even with a pro shot that is not altered the horse may look completely different from that same horse out in the pasture or stall. When I look out my window I do not see the horses as looking the same as they do in the show ring all fitted, conditioned, clipped, bathed, groomed and made up for show. I have had people come to my farm and ask "where is so and so", while they are standing right in front of them and that is after seeing them in the flesh at a show and again in my paddock.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Nov 24, 2011)

I am sorry not every professional shot is doctored in fact it is silly to think so.

The reality is when a professional is shooting horses are presented at their best. It is no different then watching a horse walk into the show ring looking at it in the warm up and thinking mediocre.. then seeing it set up in the ring having a gret time showing, being presented by a handler who knows how to make it look its best and being totally wowed. It is not about being doctored it is about knowing how to get the best look for the moment.

That said it is alway best to get set up pictures and pictures of the horse just hanging out in it's stall or turn out


----------



## ohmt (Nov 24, 2011)

Wildhorses-i LOVE professional pictures and I hope that one day I can afford to have some taken of my horses. You are right, photography is ART and the picture taken deserves the photographers name on it, just like a painting would have its painter's signature on it.

Now, as much as I love to look at the beautiful pro pictures, I would never buy a horse based solely on them. I ask for both sides of the horse standing square, front, back, teeth, hooves, and a movement shot. Must be recent. Don't advertise your horse for sale if you can not provide these pictures, simple as that. I have never had a person contact me about horses without asking for these same pictures. If I have a horse listed for sale, then I have them available. I always find it strange when I contact someone about a horse they have for sale and they won't send me recent pictures. Very shady, I don't care what your reasoning is. I don't like doing winter fuzzy pictures either people, but if i'm going to buy a horse I want at least one so I can see the horse isn't starving to death and I would hope the other pictures were taken the same summer/fall. We are now in a time where most people buy sight unseen via the internet. As a seller, I am more than willing to accommodate. As a buyer, if you're not, i'm on to the next horse. Too many good deals these days to mess around.

Also, I know that most pictures are not doctored (minus taking out leads or props, etc), but I have seen a couple that have been listed on the LB Saleboard. Easy to spot-very fuzzy around the doctored area. One was to pro pic doctored to make a foal's head look more refined I think. They are out there, but I find them easy to see.


----------



## mdegner (Nov 24, 2011)

Amen WildHorses, Milo, Jean B and the others. Thought it a ridiculous statement to begin with, and a bit hypocritical. We all love good shots of our horses, and we expect our professional pics to show the very best of that horse. To say all professional photographers doctor and falsify their pictures, is like saying all lawyers chase ambulances, or all blondes are dumb, or all rich people are evil, or fill in the blank.

It's truly difficult to get good shots of your animals. We spend alot of time taking pics and out of 100, we might get 2 or 3 that are keepers. The really good photographers have an ability to capture the beauty of that animal, and I constantly find myself looking at the professional pics and learning from them. The angles, the lighting, the timing....

Happy Thanksgiving everyone.......


----------



## ahrobertspony (Nov 24, 2011)

Professional photographers are PROFESSIONALS. It is in their best interest to capture the very, very best shot possible of the horse in front of them. Unless they do that, they cannot sell their wares. Selling their product is how professional photographers profit from the work they do.

I have handled hundreds of thousands of professional horse show photos over the time. I can tell you without hesitation that the majority of them unequivocally DO NOT contain the type of retouching that many here seem to assume. If you question that, simply go to a professional show photographer's site and look at the PROOFS. PROOFS are NOT retouched. Retouching a photo is a professional service, one that these individuals charge for as a part of the way they make their living. They are NOT going to retouch every photo you see. First, it's ridiculously time consuming. If you had any experience with this type of thing, you'd know that. Second, it's not profitable to retouch a photo you have no idea whether anyone will purchase or not. Therefore, you don't retouch until the order is paid and the retouching fee is paid. A professional's time is just too valuable to waste it and not be paid.

The MOST common professional retouching, frankly, is adding a ribbon, changing a sign title, removing a background or "fixing" ears.

The only general professional retouching services that a professional may make to the thousands of proofs you can see on a photography proofing site will be cropping (to center the content) and color correction. Other than that, frankly, they won't waste their time.

I didn't have the opportunity to work with Casey McBride. However, I can point to the work of Terry Young and Terri Washburn. These folks are masters ... I've seen thousands of pics be up for proofing in nearly no time at all (and CERTAINLY with no time for jacking w/ the photo) and been AMAZED by the content and what they captured.

There is a reason folks like this are PROFESSIONAL photographers.

Of course, the above is only based on having worked with some of the very best professional photographers in the business over the course of the last 16 years and having looked at EVERY SINGLE photo taken at AMHR Nationals and the ASPC/ASPR Congress from about 2006 through 2010. That is a mind-boggling number of RAW pics. In them, I saw some amazing, amazing un-retouched pics .... pics that looked exactly the same in the proof up just a scant few minutes after a class as they did when they came across in the final 8x10 form.


----------



## Barbie (Nov 24, 2011)

I totally disagree with the statement that all professional pictures are altered. That is so not true.

I had pictures taken of my stallion while at Worlds and saw some of them right away. They were super in the camera and super when I received them. Yes, they are great - Chase was conditioned for Worlds, he was clipped, had makeup on and had a super handler to get the best out of him.

That same photographer and handler came to Florida a few weeks ago and photographed 20 or more horses in a day. Sandy was shooting lots of pics of each horse - she had 1000's of photos to go through and we still received our CD's quickly. All the horses photographed were clipped, show halters, some had breast collars, some were straight out of the pasture and clipped. All the photos are great. I have to say Sandy and James Walsh did a super job. My photos of the 3 horses I took over were not photoshopped, they just show my horses to their best advantage.

If someone is looking at one of my horses, I want good pics to show, but I also will not hesitate to walk out and take pictures and/or video to shohw what they look like today.

Barbie


----------



## alongman (Nov 24, 2011)

We have had several professional photo shoots. The one thing that I chose when selecting a photographer was one that would take photos UNTIL we got the perfect picture WITHOUT any editing. What you see is what you get. We did spend hours taking pictures - often several hundred pictures, but maybe only selected one or two. It was well worth it! Also, when people shop from our pictures, they get to see hundreds of on-line pictures that were taken in order to get that one...


----------



## Royal Crescent (Nov 24, 2011)

I don't believe that she meant every photo or every photographer alters photos. It is the frustration with those few that you can see evidence of possible altering and the refusal to submit new, unaltered shots. I also have seen the horses that she bought after being sent the pro shots and have seen the actual pictures. They were obviously altered. If it meant a sale or not, would you take new pics or a video?


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 24, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I agree that many are doctored, but not all. The good news is that we as the general buying public are becoming wiser about this issue and more savvy oursevles with our own computer. So what I advise every person that contacts me about a horse for sale is to take the pictures I send them (I always make sure the DPI is high enough) and enlarge it to 400% and LOOK VERY CLOSELY at it. If a picture has been doctored, I don't care how good someone is at it, if you make the picture large enough and look at it closely (I personally go around the entire outline of the horse) you can see if something has been altered. Could someone still fool me? Maybe, but not very likely. But even if I feel the pro pictures haven't been doctored to change conformation (I don't mind the removal of a lead or something in the background) I still must have just general conformation shots - both sides, legs, head, bite and preferably a video. Folks, take a video and stop it at every frame...talk about getting to see the true horse!



I do that all the time now when I am looking at a horse I am interested in. All of you who say that the top line is not doctored, look again. It does not take much to put a straight line over the hip and make the horse look like it has a high tail set and a flat croup. Time and time again with most of the photographers, in Morgans, Arabians, Miniatures and probably many other horse breeds at least do this.


----------



## Minimor (Nov 24, 2011)

I've seen it done some with Morgan photos--where MANY, MANY of the photos have ears fixed and gaping mouths closed. I haven't seen it so much on Miniature photos--certainly not ALL of the professional photos. I would say a few, nowhere near ALL of them


----------



## kaprikorn (Nov 24, 2011)

My stallion has been "shot" by several different photographers. . .Sandy, Uwharrie and Pamela Walsh. None of them have been doctored. Also the win picas are unaltered. I have used them and changed the backgrounds sometimes for ads and such but have never done anything to the horse himself. He is what you see, don't have to enhance him. . .he is pretty already





But then again, I have seen some photos of other horses that I know have been "improved". Does make it hard if interested in buying one.


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 24, 2011)

> This Topic Really P--sses me off. I usually bite my tongue but, I have had it with this topic. For you to say that all professional photos are doctored, is simply slander. That is not true. I find it funny that over the years, you, the person that started this topic, have used many professional photos of your horses on your website, taken by one of the top photographers in the industry, and sure wasn't a problem then. I am also tired of seeing one farm advertise on the sales board complaining about professional photos and professional photographers "slapping their name under the horses nose". Well guess what, a photo is property, physical and intillectual, and it is that phototographers right to place their name or copyright mark on that photo. But again, that person that complains about it on the sales board has used professional photos for years on their website. A member of that persons family has always slapped their name on the photos they took and has made a living using profession photos for add design. Sure does seem two faced to me.


Funny, but I do not use a professional photographer. So thank you for your complement, since I am the one who takes all of the pictures of my horses. Only one stallion did Liz take a photo of of mine, and he was with his breeder at the time. Never said he was doctored, or that she did. Another couple of stallions I bought and got some small shots of them from the people I bought them from, but then, I posted another picture of them that I took myself so that people could see what they look like now. Beyond their professional shot.

It is interesting though to see so many of you get fired up because you read into what is written. *I never said all professionals doctor shots,* though I believe that most fix the top line of their shots and many clean up the pictures with air brushing. (If you saw before and after pictures of models in magazines you would be really surprised how different they look). I said that most of the shots I have gotten have been doctored. Some so ridicules as to make the horse look deformed.

I am not asking people to take very hairy shots of their horses. Since I lived in Minnesota for so many years, I for one, know just how impossible it is to see conformation through a Minnesota Miniature horses coat. But if one is asking for other shots in the summer and early fall and get refused, I am not going to look any further at the horse.

It is just frustrating when one has a limited budget and can not take the time to "fly out" to see a horse. I live alone and I would have to hire someone to take care of the farm. I would rather put the money into the stallion I am looking for, than farm sitting, hotels and airline tickets. A video would be great, but many people will not do that. I get the response that the professional shots will be all I get to see.

I do not mind driving to see a horse if I can do it in a day. But how many of us have to rely on pictures when we buy horses? How many of us can afford to fly to see one? I have bought horses for as much as $15,000 to $20,000 on a photo, in the past, when the economy was good. Have I been disappointed, heck yes. That is why I want some other shots to see if the throat latch is really that thin. or if the top line is really that flat, tail set that high. I want to see bites, front and rear leg shots, heck even shots of two testicles.






So, all of you who were quick to attack me, get off your high horses. I would love to be able to afford professional shots, but I would also be willing to take shots of them myself. They may not be as great as the professional shots, but one can still see the bite, front and back legs, throat latch, top line and high tail set..


----------



## disneyhorse (Nov 24, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> I am so tired of looking at horses who have had professional shots, they look fantastic. Nice high topline, thin throat latch, long legs, lots of neck... and then you see the horse in real life and wonder if they changed horses on you?
> 
> Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored. Some professional photographers can make a donkey look like a really nice miniature horse.


In bold above, you just said "I never said all professionals doctor shots" and yet, you see above, your quote in the original post. You said "EVERY PROFESSIONAL SHOT IS DOCTORED."

This is what is getting people fired up. You are not simply saying "I am having trouble getting pasture shots from people selling horses, all I can get is professional photos which I feel do not always best represent what the horse looks like now." A LOT of us who sell horses are willing to get photos... I know I go down to the barn every night and I am happy to measure the horse, get pictures of feet or bites, video of it working in a bitting rig or walking to/from the camera, video of whatever it is that the prospective buyer wants to see. So, I don't know where you are shopping or what exactly you are looking for, but obviously in the horse world you get ALL SORTS of sellers. This is why everyone always suggests to ensure that paperwork is in order, that the right questions are asked, and buyer beware.

Andrea


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Nov 25, 2011)

To be fair to both sides, I can see how people would have misinterpreted the original statement, but I did not.

To me it was quite clear that RD meant that every photo _she had received_ had been doctored- which is, as I said, misrepresentation (though impossible to prove)

I am not at all sure why people are getting so uptight about it, it annoys me when, time after time, I see pictures that have obviously, in one case ludicrously, doctored.

On another track, slightly, it is frustrating to see yearlings and older offered on their foal pictures, especially if these are posed pictures, but that, of course, is obvious and up to the individual poster.

I also think it was obvious- but it appears not to be, so maybe I am reading a different post- that it was not aimed at people who "tidy" pictures- ie remove lead reins or even put the horse in a better background- how often have you taken the perfect candid shot only to find a post growing out of the horses rump??

I had a lovely picture of a foal looking at a dump his mother had just done and my friend turned it into a patch of daisies- I do not think anyone is bothered by that....are they?


----------



## Charlotte (Nov 25, 2011)

Having a professional photographer in the family and being a horse breeder myself, I can tell you it all comes down to the integrity of the horse owner and the photographer they choose...and I mean regarding ALTERING CONFORMATION of the horse photographed.

Little House (Liz Johnson) WILL NOT alter horse conformation and has even caught out horse owners who have photoshopped her photographs to alter conformation. Of course she then insists they remove those altered photographs from public view, but she can't stop them from sending an altered photograph to a prospective buyer. In this digital age anyone with a little computer skill can doctor their horse's conformation. This is the reason that every page of our web site has this statement on it:



> **Horses offered by REFLECTIONS have had no medical procedures performed to alter conformation. Photographs have not been retouched to alter conformation.**


Now please understand that a professional photographer WILL make certain changes to photographs which include removing a dropped stallion, removing photo props, color adjustment, cropping and actions such as that which do not change the conformation of the horse but certainly make the photograph more attractive.

We have been accused of this photo of one of our 2011 colts being altered to improve conformation.






This is a picture I took of the same colt last month (October) No, I'm not a photographer, but I do think it's pretty obvious that the conformation in the pro picture is still there.






Bottom line.....know your seller and know their photographer.


----------



## shelia (Nov 25, 2011)

I think the professionals are able to capture that moment in time when the horse looks awsome. The pictures are clear and the angle is just right. The angle and the moment may not show flaws the horse may have. Those are the pictures we hope for. i wish I could get professional pics of all of my horses. It does get people to take you more seriously when selling. Of course you will need to see more pics of every angle and recent pics to sell a horse. of course no horse looks like that all of the time. Bad pics can make a good horse look bad. the wrong angle can make a nice head look very large. They can twist around and make their legs look crooked or hocked when they are not. They can make their neck look short when it is not. If they are not tied they will surely stand on or near a pile of poop or the part of the fence or barn that they have recently been chewing on. Many seem to love to get dirty and muddy.

If someone is selling a horse I think they need to be prepared to provide recent accurate pics of it. It is a pain, but it needs to be done. If they do not, I would wonder what they are trying to hide and pass on that horse.

That pretty picture may have gotten my attention, but now let's see what that horse really looks like at all angles.

I know that horse isn't going to look like that professional pic all of the time. It shows me what the horse can look like at it's best.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 25, 2011)

Minimor said:


> I've bought many horses without going to see them; in most of those cases I bought the horse without seeing more than 3 or 4 average photos. I have never been disappointed in any of them; in pretty much every case the horse has turned out to be nicer than his photos showed. *If I like a horse when I see a rather poor photo of him I know I'm going to like what I see when I see that horse out in my pasture.* If I were to buy a horse based on an absolutely perfect pro photo, there's a very good chance that I'm going to be disappointed by what I see when I look out the window & see that horse out in the pasture.


Absolutely! I'm an amateur photographer and photoshopper (purely for my own enjoyment) and can tell you that what makes a good equine photographer is an understanding of angles and perspective. I can take an average horse with good points and bad points like my own Kody and either make him look really good or really terrible depending on how I pose him. Take photos of him off-balance and grumpy and he looks like he belongs in a dogfood can. Most the time he just looks average. Get a GOOD photo of him from a flattering angle and he looks awesome!! Most horses are like him and while that professional shot may be awesome, someone with an experienced eye can still see that there may be problems by what _wasn't_ shot and will ask for candid pictures of those angles. But take a good horse like Mingus or Turbo and even in a bad shot from a horrible angle, you can still see the length of leg, elegant neck set, etc. It may be a terrible shot but you can still tell there's something there worth looking at. Those are the horses that those who are looking for National Champions and good breeding stock should be searching for...the ones who stand out even in bad pictures.

I've been to several Liz shoots and can tell you those amazing-looking necks were not retouched. They didn't need to be- the photographer was on the ground, shooting up and back at the horse, with a skunk tail or mirror or other interesting object causing the horse to telescope its neck out to the furthest anatomically-possible extent, and then she snapped the photo at exactly the right moment. OF COURSE it looks nine miles long!! Does it look like that all the time? No. But was it photo-shopped? No. Anyone buying horses off professional photos needs to be experienced enough to tell how much is the photo and how much is the horse. The best photographers are the ones that don't NEED photoshop to make the horse look fabulous. That's their job and they're very good at it!

I talked to someone in the UK when I visited in 2010 and they were telling me about a friend who had imported a famous stallion from the U.S. and how horrified they had been when the horse walked off the plane and was nothing like his pictures. I shook my head but at the same time I wasn't surprised. I'd seen the professional photos of the horse and it was obvious to me that he needed that sort of glamour shot to look good- he was thick, short-necked, and generally rather plain. But for someone in another country who wasn't used to that sort of pro photo it wasn't obvious at all and they were now stuck with a horse they had gone to tremendous expense to import and wouldn't be able to sell in person for half what they paid.





So to sum it up, I agree that buying a horse off strictly pro (or pro-quality) photos is probably a very poor idea but don't believe it's a crime to try and show your horse off to its best advantage. Those sort of photos are wonderful but you have to remember they only capture a single moment in time when the horse was at its absolute best. I want to see the same horse I'm going to see in my own pasture every day; they spend a lot more time muddy and fuzzy around here than they do in show shape!





Leia


----------



## Magic (Nov 25, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> "Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored. Some professional photographers can make a donkey look like a really nice miniature horse."
> 
> Above is what the original poster said Jane and if that doesn't mean that "every pro shot is doctored" I am not sure what she was trying to say???......................................................................
> 
> ...





I get that too, but it's the other way around-- my horses almost always look so much better in person than they do in their pictures, even my daughter who does my website has had a hard time recognizing some of the horses. She isn't the only one who has commented on it. Obviously I need better pictures, *embarrassed* but I don't mind that people like my horses even better in person. Never have I had any photos altered, nor would I, it seems extremely unethical to the extreme. JMO.


----------



## tagalong (Nov 25, 2011)

> Every professional shot is doctored, maybe only their top line, but they are doctored.


Oh really?? Wow.



So very WRONG. With all due respect, I think you were the one "on your high horse" making such statements...

NONE of the professional pictures (Liz, Jay Goss) that have been taken here over the years have been doctored or photoshopped in any way... NONE of them. With the possible exception of maybe takingout a leadline or weeds etc. Nothing structural was touched. No toplines were messed with. The horses were exactly as shown. To be honest, I sort of resent that the idea that anyone would think they were doctored. Or suggest that they were in fact altered as they "knew better"...

The main stallion here actually looks better in person - better than his "pro" shots, even.





We recently sold a sweet, small red filly who looked nothing like her pro picture seeing as she was fatter and in her winter woolies... but her happy new owner saw past the hair and the tummy and was thrilled with her new girl....



... _as she was exactly what we advertised her as being. _


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 25, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> To be fair to both sides, I can see how people would have misinterpreted the original statement, but I did not.
> 
> To me it was quite clear that RD meant that every photo _she had received_ had been doctored- which is, as I said, misrepresentation (though impossible to prove)
> 
> ...



Thank you RF...Every picture of a colt or stallion I was interested in whether on line or pictures sent to me was doctored. Some, only their top line, but still doctored. Some from well known photographers. When one blows the picture up to a very large size, one can see the doctored area. I do not mind photos where leads are taken out, or minor background items, but I do when the halter is taken out too. I want to see the true top line, not one that has had the top of the hip taken off to look like he has a flat croup and high tail set. Nor do I want to see one where the throat latch has been tightened. The top line and tail set can not be conditioned...it is a horses true conformation and can only be changed in a photo. Heck, there is one stallion in the World Book that looks deformed because they took off so much of the hip to give a flat back and a high tail set. All of you who are flaming me, take a look again at many of the professional photos,(blow them up and look) then take a look at the same horse taken at a later time by its owner where the hip is rounded and the tail set is lowered. I want to see the true tail set and the true top line. I have seen photos of horses taken at the World Show who have won, then seen them again when the owners took the pictures and the top line is not flat , the hip is rounded and it has a lower tail set. Sometimes only a little bit has been taken off, but it still has been taken off. I am not a newby here and was in dogs for over 40 years where it can be harder to see conformation than in the Mini. But conformation is conformation and I know what I want for my mares. I also bred and showed Morgans for over 10 years, the photographers took off part of the hip on them too if the top line was not flat in the shot.

I am not trashing all of you who have taken offense to my letting off steam, nor am I saying your horses pictures have been doctored. I am just saying that as a buyer, I am tired of the pictures I have seen of stallions or colts *I am interested in buying* having doctored pictures. If you do not want to take your own pictures for someone and want to rely on only your professional shots, good for you, but I as a buyer will not be buying them and I am sure there are many out there who feel like me.

Now stop acting like I am talking about you. I was letting off steam and making a comment that I am sure many people have felt.


----------



## tagalong (Nov 25, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> I am not trashing all of you who have taken offense to my letting off steam, nor am I saying your horses pictures have been doctored. I am just saying that as a buyer, I am tired of the pictures I have seen of stallions or colts I am interested in buying having doctored pictures. If you do not want to take your own pictures for someone and want to rely on only your professional shots,* good for you,* but I as a buyer will not be buying them and I am sure there are many out there who feel like me.
> 
> *Now stop acting like I am talking about you.* I was letting off steam and making a comment that I am sure many people have felt.


Well, the way you have chosen to come across here is to make sweeping generalizations, condescend, condemn and then tell those of us who had concerns to "stop" it? Mmmmkay.



Maybe we were just "letting off steam" and making comments that I am sure many people felt.

The reason many toplines are different on photos that are NOT altered is that the horse is stood up just right and tight and shot from the right angle... no fraud there. And a casual, non-set up pasture shot will naturally not look the same. It's not rocket science.

We have taken casual pics of our horses when asked - but to be honest that has only happened twice in ten years. People know that they get what they see... whether it is a pro pic or not.

And even the pro pics of the retired ex-showhorse broodmares _show them for exactly what they are_ - without professional handlers standing them up... without being in show shape... and the quality still shines through.


----------



## Minimor (Nov 25, 2011)

> "The top line and tail set can not be conditioned...it is a horses true conformation and can only be changed in a photo."


 Wow. Apparently you have never watched Arabs show? You have never crunched a croup in you life, never sat a horse back, brought it's head up and then made it reach... Even some relatively crappy toplines can get flat enough for good pictures. Stallion's particularly are easy - heck - even horrible butted ones will flatten out quite a bit when teasing a mare! The right photo angle with the near foot behind the far foot with the hip dropped a touch and you can do wonders with a topline in a photo - no editing needed! 
Morgans, Arabs, Shetlands, Minis--some of them actually *do* have very flat toplines when posed 'just so' and they are on form & showing their hearts out. Yes, when you see the horse walk out his rump will appear more rounded with the tail lower, particularly at a certain point in his stride and from a certain angle. By the same token, you can take a horse with a very level topline & totally ruin that topline by posing the horse wrong & taking the photo from the wrong angle!

And yes, toplines can be conditioned. A somewhat weak rear end can be muscled up with the right kind of work--muscle the horse up just right & his croup will fill in between dock and point of hip and will appear more level than it was previously. You won't get that kind of muscling and improvement if the horse is just scurrying around the round pen, but give him some honest to goodness classical dressage work & it most certainly does make a difference.


----------



## HGFarm (Nov 26, 2011)

I hear you on the advertising with only professional photos... I like seeing home photos with what the horse looks like every day. Then I know that when they are show groomed, they will look even nicer. I just want to see what to expect with average photos. A professional photo or two is ok, but I like several just every day at home pics.

I dont agree with the comment that every professional photo is doctored. I have a couple of photos on my site that were taken at a show, and they were not touched- what you see is what you get. I have seen many other nice photos as well taken.

I have had the same experience at Nationals though- looking at the pro photos hanging on the stall and seeing something ENTIRELY different in the stall. A couple I only recognized by their distinct markings that matched the photo!


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 26, 2011)

Minimor said:


> Wow. Apparently you have never watched Arabs show? You have never crunched a croup in you life, never sat a horse back, brought it's head up and then made it reach... Even some relatively crappy toplines can get flat enough for good pictures. Stallion's particularly are easy - heck - even horrible butted ones will flatten out quite a bit when teasing a mare! The right photo angle with the near foot behind the far foot with the hip dropped a touch and you can do wonders with a topline in a photo - no editing needed!
> 
> Morgans, Arabs, Shetlands, Minis--some of them actually *do* have very flat toplines when posed 'just so' and they are on form & showing their hearts out. Yes, when you see the horse walk out his rump will appear more rounded with the tail lower, particularly at a certain point in his stride and from a certain angle. By the same token, you can take a horse with a very level topline & totally ruin that topline by posing the horse wrong & taking the photo from the wrong angle!
> 
> And yes, toplines can be conditioned. A somewhat weak rear end can be muscled up with the right kind of work--muscle the horse up just right & his croup will fill in between dock and point of hip and will appear more level than it was previously. You won't get that kind of muscling and improvement if the horse is just scurrying around the round pen, but give him some honest to goodness classical dressage work & it most certainly does make a difference.



Yes I know that if one parks a horse out far enough you can get a flat top line (remember I said I bred and showed Morgan's for over 10 years, also had National winners), but Mini's are not supposed to be parked out. I do not even look at the ones who are parked out. I am not looking for a horse that has to be pushed into that top line and many are not pushed into it, just corrected by the photographer. I own a stallion who has a natural flat croup and high tail set, even when he is not showing his heart out. I want to continue with natural top Line.

I also know that with some certain conditioning one can fill out the rear some, but I am looking for the natural look, not one that has been worked to get the illusion or one that has been doctored. In morgans, Arabians and Saddlebreds tails are cut to give a higher lift, but it does not mean that it is something I would want to do. One can also ginger a horse to appear to get a higher tail set for a video.

Again, I am talking about my looking for a stallion and not what all of you have as far as professional photos. I will say it again, I want regular photos too. I have an idea. Get some professional shots and at the same time, while the horse is still clipped clean and in show condition. Take some of your own shots. Then you have them to show to prospective buyers too. Again I am saying, I have been dealing with some sellers that will only give me the professional shots and not other shots. *I want to see the true horse.* I do not think I am asking too much when I am willing to spend what it takes to get a great colt or stallion.


----------



## Katiean (Nov 26, 2011)

They sure can change the looks of a horse. Kind of like "Glamor Shots" for people and if you want you can go into a recording studio and make a record that "FIXES" your crummy voice. It is all fake. I never trust the profesional photos. I ask for current out of the pasture pictures.

They sure can change the looks of a horse. Kind of like "Glamor Shots" for people and if you want you can go into a recording studio and make a record that "FIXES" your crummy voice. It is all fake. I never trust the profesional photos. I ask for current out of the pasture pictures.


----------



## Minimor (Nov 26, 2011)

Arabs are not supposed to be parked out either, and yet they can still be posed to flatten their topline even more.

As far as wanting traits that are 'bred in' and not 'made'--I agree that is the the desirable thing. But you must remember that whether it is a professional photo or just a plain old at home photo taken by the owner, if that horse has been showing at the time the photos are taken it is entirely possible that the at home photos will show the horse at his peak of conditioning. You won't know how much work that horse has been doing to be in the shape that he is in, you won't know how much his neck has been sweated.

I've already agreed that it is best not to buy strictly from professional photos, but only posted above to point out it is ludicrous to state that all professional photos have been doctored. And you did say ALL--you didn't say all the photos you have received have been doctored, you said in your initial post that all professional photos are enhanced to improve the look of the horse.


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 26, 2011)

> I've already agreed that it is best not to buy strictly from professional photos, but only posted above to point out it is ludicrous to state that all professional photos have been doctored. And you did say ALL--you didn't say all the photos you have received have been doctored, you said in your initial post that all professional photos are enhanced to improve the look of the horse.






:BeatDeadHorse



Next time I will remember to read what I wrote before posted. I was annoyed with someone who had a really nice colt for sale, but would not send me any other pictures except for two professional shots that looked doctored. So lets all drop this subject.


----------



## disneyhorse (Nov 26, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> Funny, but I do not use a professional photographer. So thank you for your complement, since I am the one who takes all of the pictures of my horses. Only one stallion did Liz take a photo of of mine, and he was with his breeder at the time. Never said he was doctored, or that she did. Another couple of stallions I bought and got some small shots of them from the people I bought them from, but then, I posted another picture of them that I took myself so that people could see what they look like now. Beyond their professional shot.
> 
> So, all of you who were quick to attack me, get off your high horses. I would love to be able to afford professional shots, but I would also be willing to take shots of them myself. They may not be as great as the professional shots, but one can still see the bite, front and back legs, throat latch, top line and high tail set..


I am confused... at least HALF of the photos on your website have a professional photographer's stamp on them... Washburn, Liz, Schatzberg...

All but one photo on your "Driving Horses for Sale" page is by a professional photographer... and all but two photos on your "Stallions for Sale" page are by professional photographers... so how are you "the one who takes all of the pictures of your horses" ? I think it's these conflicting blanket statements that is confusing everyone.

No one denies that some photos are touched up. The degree of photoshopping really depends. There are a couple horses on your website that are pictured completely cut out from the background and photoshopped onto a flat background... that is much more difficult to tell conformation than one in a natural setting. So you, yourself extensively are using photoshopped images and professional images... so why is it so bad if others do, too?

Andrea


----------



## lucky seven (Nov 26, 2011)

I agree this has gone on long enough, but I think some of the "doctored" shots could be oil rubbed on the horse to make it shinier and eye liner and darkener around the muzzle to highlight a very pretty face.


----------



## wildhorses (Nov 26, 2011)

I think this is good debate and the reason why we have open forums. I hope that this topic doesn't get "locked" like so many other topics because it's a little bit heated. Plenty of people advertise on this website with professional photos and plenty with non-professional photos. Those that choose to use professional photos have a right to defend themselves and their photos, as do those who use non-professional photos. Just my two cents...again.


----------



## Joanne (Nov 27, 2011)

A lot of these issues could be resolved with a good video of the horse being considered.

A video can tell us about the movement of the horse, which cannot be told in a photo. It is wonderful to have professional photos on our website if we choose to, but a video in addition allows people to see the horse's action as well.

Take a video when the horse is finished being photographed so people see the entire package.

Not everyone can see a horse in person, the video allows us to see the horse in 3D.


----------



## tagalong (Nov 27, 2011)

> I understand that Riverdance was upset with the fact that she was interested in a colt (that was for sale) and the seller did not want to send her a few non-pro pictures.. I feel it is Riverdance's right to ask for more (non-pro)pictures if she is interested in purchasing..


That is all fine but then expanding that to the dismissive "fact" that all pro photos were doctored or that toplines cannot be conditioned or that any horse that looks good in said photo must be photoshopped as opposed to being stood up and showing very well with expression - is bound to illicit a response.

People are going to respond to comments like that... and I would hate for a spirited debate to be shut down just because the exchanges got a tiny bit heated or passionate. Both sides should be allowed to politely "blow off steam".



> There are a couple horses on your website that are pictured completely cut out from the background and photoshopped onto a flat background... that is much more difficult to tell conformation than one in a natural setting. So you, yourself extensively are using photoshopped images and professional images... so why is it so bad if others do, too?


That confused me a bit, too, *disneyhorse*.... but I do understand *Riverdance* wanting to see non-pro photos as well if she was interested in buying a particular horse. It is just the condemnation of pro photos being used or the effects of proper conditioning etc. on show horses that is a bit confusing.


----------



## SampleMM (Nov 27, 2011)

I have to agree with Mary Lou, sometimes our thoughts come across differently when they are posted. My son's favorite saying is "Relax, you're making a scene!"





Riverdance, I can understand your frustration when wanting additional (non-pro) shots of a potential colt. Three years ago, when I was looking for a show colt I inquired about a beautiful buckskin colt. When I asked for more photos they referred me to a link that simply had more pro shots of this colt. I was scared to go off those alone and there was very little conversation about the colt. A few months later, a breeder had an awesome colt with show photos but explained in depth her feelings about the colt. Well, I went to Kentucky and loaded up the horse in a flash. The ironic thing is that my colt was shown by the same trainer as the other colt and I was able to see him at every show. He ended up being a nice colt but I was much happier with the one I ended up with. So, kinda funny how things work out but an honest conversation is a real plus and also a drive/flight to see the horse is a must.





For the record: My Liz photos weren't photoshopped. Heck, they weren't even cropped. All the photos, had the handler, leads and props in every frame. I didn't care but felt as an aspiring photographer, I would never take those gorgeous photos without my photographer's stamp being on every single shot.


----------



## Jill (Nov 27, 2011)

I'm happy to report that my horse photos, pro and ammy, reflect the real horses. Not so much as they are rigjt now in their winter outfits, though


----------



## txminipinto (Nov 27, 2011)

The only doctoring I do is to remove manure, people, dogs, fence posts, etc. Clean up the back and foreground. We have a dog that loves photo shoots because he knows he'll get to eat the bait! He's always in the picture. As far as making the horse look better? I am not that talented. Its easier to start with a nice horse that's well groomed than to spend hours with one photo on photoshop.


----------



## Minimor (Nov 27, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I understand that Riverdance was upset with the fact that she was interested in a colt (that was for sale) and the seller did not want to send her a few non-pro pictures.. I feel it is Riverdance's right to ask for more (non-pro)pictures if she is interested in purchasing..
> 
> Everyone.. you must understand that when people post here, it can come across as totally different in what they intended to say.. I see this happen many times..


Things can come across different than they were intended, but it's kind of a different thing when the poster actually writes something specific that is different than what she perhaps intended to say.

In this instance, Riverdance would have gotten much more sympathy if she had stated that she's very frustrated with this one particular seller who will not send additional non-pro photos of the colt. Not only did her initial post state that ALL professional photos are doctored, she actually told us all to look again if we think that toplines at least haven't been altered in the pro photos we look at. Her posts most definitely referred to pro photos in general, because she didn't limit it to just the few she was looking at of one particular colt. So yes, it does pay to read what one has written before hitting the 'post' button--otherwise one ends up posting and saying sorry, I didn't word that right, what I was meaning is this....


----------



## Jill (Nov 27, 2011)

Thanks for reposting what ML said as it clarifies the spirit of this thread. I also would not buy a horse with only pro shots as a reference. I have frequently bought horses I do not first see in person. I think most if us with anything going on have. I've been happy with results but while I love the beauty of pro pictures, farm candid shots from all angles are a must or it's no deal. They nake horses every day and it's a buyer's market. Demand what you require and if it's not provided, I'd keep shopping elsewhere.


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 27, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


> I am confused... at least HALF of the photos on your website have a professional photographer's stamp on them... Washburn, Liz, Schatzberg...
> 
> All but one photo on your "Driving Horses for Sale" page is by a professional photographer... and all but two photos on your "Stallions for Sale" page are by professional photographers... so how are you "the one who takes all of the pictures of your horses" ? I think it's these conflicting blanket statements that is confusing everyone.
> 
> ...


Look again, those photos are accomplishments that I and my horses and horses I bred have done. NOT horses that are for sale. I have three stallions for sale (and are sold), that have professional shots. They also have photos I took of them, except Windchaser. Windchaser has proven himself as a stud in the amount of money that I have sold his foals for and the several that I kept. Most of his foals look alike, a very consistant stallion, no matter what mare he is bred to. He does not need to have other photos of him at his age. But if someone wanted photos of him today, I would certanly take them.

Also, if you had read ALL of my posts, you would have seen where I said *I WISH I COULD AFFORD A PROFESSIONAL PHOTOGRAPHER* Still, I would send and have sent other pictures of my horses. Even in the dead of winter where, as I have posted before, one can not see conformation under all that hair. In MN the horses looked like Yaks.

As for photo shopped pictures on my web site, there are just TWO. I had just bought the program and was playing with it. One of them is a driving mare that is not for sale and another is a mare that I sold and it was under the sold horses. (those people came to my home to buy). I have never lied about my horses, or tried to make them something they were not. Many times I have been so honest, I have lost sales.

I am sure that you must have better things to do than go over every page of my web site to try and find something to attack me about.




:BeatDeadHorse



:frusty Once again I will say, next time I will read what I say so that people do not flame me about my frustrations and do not spend so much time looking for something on my web site to try to condemn me. (sure hope you liked the web site).


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Nov 27, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> Once again I will say, next time I will read what I say so that people do not flame me about my frustrations and do not spend so much time looking for something on my web site to try to condemn me. (sure hope you liked the web site).


I wouldn't sweat it. Who knows, you may get some sales from someone scrutinizing your site.


----------



## Riverdance (Nov 28, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I wouldn't sweat it. Who knows, you may get some sales from someone scrutinizing your site.



So true!!


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Nov 28, 2011)

After all, they do say there is no such thing as bad publicity.....


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Nov 28, 2011)

I know- it is a mystery!!!


----------

