# What Is The Future For The Miniature Horse?



## SampleMM (Apr 29, 2014)

I'm curious to know other people's opinions on this matter. I've been doing a lot of thinking lately because it's been a long, cold winter and spring and I guess I've had too much time on my hands. During my thinking sessions, I've been asking myself this question and pondering these things. Is the market going to continue to be so pitiful that a registered mini can be and is being sold for a couple of hundred dollars? Is it even worth trying to show when it costs so much money to have a trainer and be competitive? Is it even fun to show against other amateurs that are basically pros but "not" actually pros? Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending? Do we need to buy a 34" Shetland which is really 36" (triple registered) in order to keep up with the current trend? Agree or disagree with me, I'm okay with that.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Apr 29, 2014)

I am not qualified to speak on all topics, so I will limit myself to just one of your questions.

Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending?
I do not believe that miniatures by are prone to dystocias based on their size alone. Instead I believe miniature breeders have inadvertently selected for mares and stallions prone to dystocias and worse yet they have attempted to 'fix' the problem by keeping them more confined and watching them even closer. I was unable to find a study in horses, but I would like to refer you to this study's conclusions done on dairy cattle and I encourage you to consider if maybe these points are applicable to minis.

The economic costs of dystocia are four
times greater than the treatment
costs alone.

Confinement is associated with increased risk of dystocia, particularly in
heifers.

Dystocia rates tend to be lower in industries where selection indices have
prioritised calving ease over many years.


In cows, the primary cause of dystocia is
abnormal foetal position associated with sire, breed of sire, fetal gender and fetal mortality.

At the national level, control of dystocia is dependent
upon genetic selection programmes and
producer education programmes.

At the farm level, control of dystocia is dependent upon
sire selection, heifer rearing
and veterinary-led investigation of high dystocia herds.

At the animal level, control of dystocia
is dependent upon calving
management and the adequacy of obstetrical assistance.

Dr. Matthew Taylor


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##  (Apr 29, 2014)

SampleMM said:


> Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending? Agree or disagree with me, I'm okay with that.


I can only speak from personal experience, but I've only had 3 losses among all the foals I produced due to a bad dystocia. In all 3 cases the vet was in attendance once I determined we had a problem that would require extra hands and vet experience. Although I lost all 3 foals, two mares were saved and went on to produce perfectly fine in the future. Two of them were "new" mares to me, purchased in foal, so I had no prior knowledge of their foaling history or the sire's production history.

The girl I lost we had to euthanize, as after 3 hours of work, she just looked at me, and I knew it was time. Upon autopsy, we found that there was no way we would have ever gotten that foal out.

I think Dr. Taylor's comments on confinement and assistance are important to remember.  Mares require exercise and room to roll. All mares here were out daily -- only being brought in after dark, and only so they could be monitored overnight (I slept in the barn, sometimes in the stall), and then out they went again in the morning. No extended confinement, as I believe they need their normal exercise patterns, the ability and space to roll babies into position and being part of their normal herd to keep stress levels down.

Personal education on what problems can arise and what to look for, and steps you can take to help resolve problems -- even when waiting for vet assistance -- to me is critical to getting these little ones safely on the ground. I've foaled out mares less than 27-28" tall with no problems and no dystocias. Two of the 3 girls mentioned above were 33-34" mares, only one was a teeny one who was purchased bred, and I found later the stallion she was bred to was really 34" tall (not the 31" they claimed he was) -- something I would never breed to with a teeny one. Baby was just too big for mom to produce on her own, and was hip-locked, but she went on to produce fine after that experience.


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## MountainWoman (Apr 29, 2014)

I think it's going to be a problem selling miniatures for a long time unless you are a well known farm. I send my horses out with a trainer to show and I'm doing it for me and for my own pleasure - not because I think my horses will sell for more money. I could never recoup my showing costs with the prices my minis would bring even though I have World Top 10s. But I love seeing my horses out and about and to me the pleasure of it is worth the money. I expect nothing back in return and I don't consider it an investment I'll ever recoup. If I did, I'd be better off buying stocks.

I for one am phasing out of breeding. I've enjoyed it but I don't think there are enough quality homes for foals or even long term homes. I don't want to see my babies spend a year or two at one farm, sold to another when they've fulfilled their broodmare duties or stud duties and on it goes. And while it's so awesome to have a new life arrive, it's also a huge responsibility that we have brought another living creature into the world which is why all my foals are still with me.

Anyway, I'm just going to enjoy my minis and do other things with them besides making babies (just had the vet out gelding two incredible boys the other day) and I have no plans to go get a triple registered horse just to follow some trend that will be here today and gone in a few years.

Life is too short to worry about what everyone else is doing and no matter what horse you have someone out there will always have a better one and so it goes.


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## bunni1900 (Apr 29, 2014)

MountainWoman said:


> And while it's so awesome to have a new life arrive, it's also a huge responsibility that we have brought another living creature into the world which is why all my foals are still with me.


Well Said, MountainWoman! I never have and never will expect my horses to create a profit. I am simply happy owning them and being with them. I will perhaps have a couple foals a year, but will never breed more than 4 mares annually (if that).

I got into the minis because of my love for the breed as a little girl and cherish the fact that I am now able to have my own! I am looking forward to my first foal crop by my young stallion in 2015 (a whopping 2 foals expected LOL). My older stallion (who is 23 this year) will get a couple mares every now and then and most likely many (if not all) of those foals will be kept for our enjoyment.

My frustration is with those who breed to make "a quick buck" i.e. "backyard breeders" who breed them more like beef cows to be sold in quantity. I have vowed to myself and my horses that I will not allow myself to become overwhelmed by acquiring too many. Each one of my horses is given daily individual attention and I plan to keep it that way. 3 of my mares have been through upwards of 5 homes (the oldest of these mares being 11) and this will be there forever home.

As for the "phase" of the triple registered horses, it, as others, will pass and people will move onto the next one.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 29, 2014)

Wow, Debbie, we think alot alike. I stopped breeding a few years back although I did breed four mares that foaled last year for their new owners, (at least three did, I retained one as a no sale and foaled her out). I can't answer the question of the market ever recovering, if it does it is way to late for our farm. As for the triple registered horses, I'm not so sure it is a fad that will just go away. I saw my first AMHR/ASPC horses at Nationals in I think 2005, I hadn't really noticed them here in the east before I saw them there, but they could have been around. They were the ones placing in halter in the B division, and top A spots. I'm very stubborn and at that time said it was a fad and I wasn't going to jump onto that band wagon, problem is now I wish I had. soon I was seeing some top of the line breeders jump onto that wagon and have dispersals of their top winning AMHA/AMHR horses, and buying triple registered. Soon the top breeders/trainers were winning all the top spots in halter not only at Nationals but Worlds. WE used to have a trainer show our horses and although exspensive was wel worth it,or so I thought at the time. Now I think it really didn't have any effect on being able to sell foals, it was more for our own vanity to see our farm bred horses shown and place. Also all of my breeding stock were bought from top breeders/trainers, and I paid top dollar, can't recoup that money with their offspring, no way. Also I'm bad at marketing, period. About showing, I don't mind that the trainers train, show in halter then hand the trained horse off to an ametuer, but I think that there should be height divisions for AOTE, so that the true ametuer/tainer doesn't get discouraged. Maybe also add somekind of newbe classes to AOTE, maybe call it a schooling class and maybe don't point it. ANyhow it is my sincere opinion that if you don't have a triple registered horse you will not place high in halter at Nationals or Worlds, so I will not be attending these shows again as I don't have the money to change my program or to even continue it.


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## Gone_Riding (Apr 29, 2014)

I agree and wonder the same things...

I bred my mini of excellent breeding to the best stud I could, but it was so I could have the foal and have no intention of selling her. After that experience, I may or may not breed again. If I do, it will be the baby when she's much older so I can keep her baby. There's practically no market for minis where I live, so I'll leave the breeding to the fancy farms. It cost me $500 just to get my baby on the ground due to expenses, and that was me saving the baby, not a vet. The stress alone was horrible! Well bred, registered geldings are $200 here. It costs at least that just to geld the guy, so I don't know how the farms are making money off their babies (except for the ones that have been shown). Even then, the cost of showing sucks up that profit.

I'm in the process of trying to show my mini in our first show. And I mean for both of us. I am a TRUE amateur that has no clue what I'm doing, and I'm worried that I'm just wasting my money by even attempting it. I debate back and forth, "What am I doing?" I have no trainer nor training. I'm terrified of trying to shave my mini, because it still hits the 30's at night, even if it's 65-70 during the day. I worry that she's just going to get sick. Or worse, I'll do a lousy job or can't finish shaving her. YouTube How-To videos can only take you so far... I don't even want to shave her! I've got a family that I could be taking on a nice vacation for what I'll be putting into showing this year. Is it worth it? I think that ALL DAY long...

I also worry about the size issue... I bred my 37" mini (that's what is says on her papers, but I believe she's really 39") to a 32.5" stud to hope for a real 36" mini. The crossing for whatever reason popped out a midget. She'll be the same size as her dad. Now I have a baby that will be smaller than I wanted for driving. Since I live out in the country with a nice long 1/2 mile walk to the mailbox, there are lots of places for me to drive her. She won't be as strong as her mom will for the job. And all because I wanted to make sure the baby was showable.

As far as the showing, I still might back out. I have the premiums for two shows all made out, just ready to put a stamp on and mail them out. I'll be honest, I'm waiting for the last minute to mail them. Because of the pure fact that no one else has handled my mini but me and I have never shown before except for a local "hick" show when I was 14. That was over 20 yrs ago, and I didn't have training back then either. For me to mail them out, I'm going to have to swallow that it would just be an expensive hobby with hopes of not placing last.


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## disneyhorse (Apr 29, 2014)

Maybe I'm not seeing the same things....

The ASPC minis have been around a long time and they were really a force at nationals back in the late 90's so it's been a good long time.

I'm not seeing the horse market as very slumped... But what exactly is an "ideal" price for a mini? $1,500? $5,000? I'm seeing plenty of quality horses selling for these prices and higher.

Other breeds are far more expensive to show, more expensive to send to a trainer, and some breeds have inspections/keurings which add expense.

There are backyard breeders of every type of animal, that's just part of the "market" that has been and always will be.

Foal losses happen in every size... The lady breeding andalusians and percherons where I board has proportionally had a good number of dystocias but the births are always attended. Valuable horses usually have attended births... Why invest that much stud fee, time, and mare care to lose it at the final hour? And yes, I agree with Dr Taylor that it can be genetic (and I also believe late-dropping testicles and kicking stifles to strongly be in this category too).


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## MountainWoman (Apr 29, 2014)

I wonder if prices are regional to some extent? There are also many markets within the miniature horse world and those of us looking for horses that will show are going to be spending more than someone looking for a companion. I see lots of top quality big name farm horses selling for good prices (I've purchased a couple myself) but if you're talking about the average unknown farm trying to sell a mini at least in my area they aren't going to get a high asking price just because you can go to a well known farm instead.

RiverRose, I have a question because I'm still learning. My horses aren't tripled registered. Most of them are A only and not R at all and all my horses that went to AMHA Worlds placed last year in the top 10. How would the judges even know if your horses were tripled registered? Are the triple registered horses looking different from the straight AMHA horses? Is it the Shetland influence?


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## secuono (Apr 29, 2014)

As just a pet horse owner looking in, I wonder how or why any of you keep breeding and showing. The market is flooded with junk that is both cheap and expensive. There are a lot of perfect show horses out there as well, cheap, cheap and occasional expensive one. Very few new people are buying the pricey ones. They're getting the cheap ones, breeding them and hoping for something better to come out of it. I'm sure there's a separate world in the ring, like there is with show rabbits, but the same issues can come up.

Was the stress you mentioned not of labor issues, but the overall stress on the body of the horse being bred over and over? With an unknown future for the foal in this market? I don't think it's worth it right now. I'll never show/breed horses, dogs or cats, there's no need and thousands of excellent animals are tossed aside due to money issues or other problems.

I think slowing down and only breeding truly perfect animals for awhile would be better than to continue as is and just hope the market/interest picks up.


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## FurstPlaceMiniatures (Apr 29, 2014)

The issue is simple - supply and demand with no realistic market for culls. Horses are livestock. Livestock is stock. Stock needs to have a salvage value to be profitable.

When the market was good, there was a demand for horses. When the economy crashed, no one had money for luxuries (aka horses) anymore, so the demand stopped, the supply didn't. Somewhere in that time frame horse slaughter then became illegal and effectively shaved $600 off the price of every horse in the country in the process. Instead of Fluffy going to the plant and maybe one or 2 auctions first, Fluffy now goes through auction to auction to auction where he eventually ends up in Backyard Billy's Barnyard after being sold for $50 where he eventually just withers away in the back 40. Horse's dropped in value hard and fast because of the lack of 'salvage value.' it might be blunt, and this probably isn't the thing to say to a group of horsemen - but bringing back horse slaughter would not only provide more food for the nation, but would increase the price of horses, stop the market from being so flooded, and therefore the price will eventually turn around. 

I am a dairy farmer. I ride the market for a living. My market swings MUCH more than the horse market, and instead of a hobby it is a business that supports 6 familes. In 2009, when milk hit an absolute 'why even bother' price, we lost money. We knew we were going to, but the truly excellent farms got through it. This is maybe the Miniature horse world's '2009,' the best will get through it, the rest will go out, but regardless, it WILL turn around someday. Dunno how, but have faith!

I agree with Doctor Taylor 100% - the main cause of dystocia is human error and poor choices with breeding! I disagree with confinement on heifers though - 4 years of college and a Dairy Herd Management degree later I have still never even heard of that. My girls are in 'confinement' housing in a freestall - and we have to pull maybe 3 to 5 a year out of 800 or so calvings. The reason for that? Healthy, properly conditioned animals and GENETICS. In cattle, pasture is not needed to effectively manage them and keep them healthy, they are not horses though and horses are a TOTALLY different story.

Here, all animals are bred to Bull's that have a less than 93% chance of having calves that need assistance to be born. Heifers are bred to bulls that have less than a 95% chance of a rough calving. All bulls selected have a +1 or greater DCE score, or daughter calving ease, meaning that their offspring will be small as calves, then grow to be ladies with 'good birthing hips.' However, the cattle industry is FAR more advanced in terms of genetics and reproduction as opposed to the horse industry. We don't have those numbers on stallions because their get is not scrutinized and studied like cattles are, they don't have the volume of offspring cattle do to come up with reliable numbers, or even a way to determine a stallion's produce value that's not 110% subjective.

It's all based on show winnings, a judge's opinion, or our own personal opinions on how his 'babies look' - and in the process of that we end up with DUDs. Its a fact of life, when stud companies test bulls we get DUDS, but because of genomics ( an emerging technology that maps the genome and correlates amino acids sequences with genetic traits ie an adenine here means he will probably sire posty legged offspring ) we are getting less and less. But in cattle, we sell those duds for beef after we milk them awhile and just don't keep her calves. There is a market for those culls. In horses, we try to pass that dud along to the first sucker that will pay cash for it, market it as a 'real nice horse,' and they take that dud and breed it again, making more duds for the next sucker to buy, flooding the market and driving down the price of even the nicest horses because of it. There is no realistic market for these culls.

Do all breeders do that? No. Does everyone who gets a dud breed it until it can't anymore? No. There are a LOT of really good, really responsible breeders and homes out there that we often forget about. We should take a moment to recognize them instead of always griping about Barnyard Billy. It's really not all that bad out there! First world countries are the only ones that geld and spay their problems away, but the only ones with overpopulation problems, therefore its OUR fault! however, its no more Barnyard Billy's fault for pumping out dwarfy unregistered critters than it is Showring Susy's for selling her duds - it all boils down to an over supply and an under demand. One of the two needs to change. How? Don't ask me. But I think the VERY first step is to stop pointing fingers at either side, and to come up with some kind of realistic market for culls.


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## little lady (Apr 29, 2014)

Many great points already made so without getting on my soapbox for days I just want to say...each individual must be happy with what they are doing for themselves and quit trying to be like the Jones's. You should do what makes you happy with your horses. If it is showing at worlds and or nationals, if it is raising foals, if it is trading horses, if it is showing at your local shows, if it is rescuing the unwanted or if it is just having a fuzzy lil one to bury your nose in be HAPPY with YOUR choices.


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 29, 2014)

I think IMO you have to be known in the miniature horse world to be able to successfully sell foals at a good price. That means going to shows and be involved in your registry. I'm not a huge well known farm by any means, but those who I see all the time at shows know who I am and vice versa. I would have a better chance at selling cause people know what I have, all my horses got shown. Yes showing is expensive but you got to get yourself out there, and you don't need to hire trainers to do it but I've hired trainers in the past and have one currently with a trainer.

Also you don't need to breed so many, two is plenty. A lot of these big farms breed for so many but at the same time you see them having lots of dispersals, or auctions and its just not worth it. Breed the best and keep them and show them or keep them til you get the price you want, and don't breed again til you get them sold.

If you have miniature shetlands it will help but if you have good AMHR or AMHA stock people will buy, but it may just be a little harder.

IMO if the registries continue to improve to help the miniatures then I think they will be fine, perhaps not like they were over 10 years ago when they were pretty high in demand, but the miniatures need a strong backbone and that's our registries. I got out of breeding but hope to do so again next year. I got myself a nice mare that I have personally trained and shown and she is close to being a 3X Hall of Famer so I consider her worthy of breeding and she will be bred to a top notch show proven stud who is worthy of remaining a stallion. I am not looking to breed to no bodies anymore.


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 29, 2014)

I don't breed and rarely show. I have no farm to promote and cannot absorb very many horses. But I sure hate seeing bad horses making more horses. It is a heartbreak for the owners--if they care. But irresponsible animal breeders/owners aren't ever going to go away.

I think the registries are doing a great job of building up miniatures and ponies! Creating an educated and discerning market is the best way to ensure the value of our horses in the future. I belong to AMHA and AMHR. I feel my membership helps, even if I am not very active.

OP, maybe with warmer, sunshiney days coming you won't have to think so hard and can get out and play with your horses instead!


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## Marty (Apr 30, 2014)

Here's my take on the questions at hand

 Is the market going to continue to be so pitiful that a registered mini can be and is being sold for a couple of hundred dollars?

Yes. In general it absolutely is going to be pitiful and contrary to popular belief, it is not solely due to the economy as so many would care to believe. It is mostly the fault of the greedy breeders that can't seem to control their numbers.

Is it even worth trying to show when it costs so much money to have a trainer and be competitive?

That depends entirely on if you have money to throw around that you don't need. Showing cost money. You can hire the best handler and trainer in the world and that is always going to be a crap shoot. 

Is it even fun to show against other amateurs that are basically pros but "not" actually pros?

That depends on your attitude. If you are out for fun, it shouldn't matter much who is in the ring with you. 

Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending? 

Of course not. 

Do we need to buy a 34" Shetland which is really 36" (triple registered) in order to keep up with the current trend? 

Plenty of people jump on the bandwagon every time there is a new fad. Doesn't mean you would be any closer to a big win. 

If it were me, I would show the kind of horse that I love; the kind of horse I am passionate about.


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## fourluckyhorseshoes (Apr 30, 2014)

Marty said:


> Is it even worth trying to show when it costs so much money to have a trainer and be competitive?
> That depends entirely on if you have money to throw around that you don't need. Showing cost money. You can hire the best handler and trainer in the world and that is always going to be a crap shoot.
> 
> Is it even fun to show against other amateurs that are basically pros but "not" actually pros?
> ...


Marty I agree with you. Showing isn't all about winning. Yes I am competitive and yes I love to win, but I can't afford to hire a trainer or buy a horse for big bucks. For me the challenge is YOU making YOUR horse a winner. I do my best and know that I honestly trained and did everything myself. You can't win it all, if you keep improving and keep learning you will do better.


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## MiniNHF (May 1, 2014)

I got into miniatures because of my ability to no longer train horses, especially TB's from the track, due to a car accident I was in 5 years ago and I was lucky I have recovered enough to even enjoy riding.

My first love is training and then showing horses and the miniatures have opened up a whole new world for me but have also brought me back to what I love. The market is saturated with breeders and showing is expensive yes but that has not deterred me. In the future would I like to breed, yes but like I said that is the future and not in the next couple of years.

Did I get my boy cheap yes I did, but he was not priced cheap by any means before I purchased him, the barn owner wanted to help me get into miniatures with a well bred younger horse she had left. One thing I have learned is that if you are new and have a younger horse they will teach you things and you will both learn together. There is absolutely nothing wrong with him, he is built well and has been to worlds etc. Is he a challenge yes but I enjoy it.

What I dont understand is the farms that take especially the mares, show them one year and after they win big that first show year they throw them into their breeding program and they never show again? It reminds me of what the TB's go through.. if they are 5 years old they are getting to old to race and need to be pulled. Seems like I never see the older miniatures competing (like the teens). I competed my older horse big horse until he was 20 before I retired him.

Is showing in general expensive yes, but just a rated show for my disciplines (in the big horse world) will cost me a few hundred in entry fees for just a one day show and then not adding on gas, food and other expenses. There are plenty of non-rated shows that will be less expensive then the rated shows. All depends on what kind of showing you want to do. This year since I am getting into miniatures and showing I have chosen to do a few local rated and a few local non-rated so I do not break the bank and its a learning experience. You dont want to spend the money for Regionals, Nationals, Worlds or what have you when you are still learning its just a waste of money and can deter a new person if they dont do well etc.


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## HGFarm (May 1, 2014)

I show because it's fun for me, win or not. I love hanging out with the wonderful folks who also have this passion for horses and doing fun stuff with our wonderful equines.

Is the stress of foaling worth it? Yes- it's part of breeding any kind of animal/bird/whatever. For the MOST part, foaling goes well with only an occasional issue. My mares are never confined. They are only stalled at night when they are VERY close to foaling. I have still had an occasional dystocia or issue, so not sure what the answer is there, but I agree that confining pregnant mares is not a good thing. In nature they would move around all day and would require keeping up with the herd.

I think quality horses still sell well. Maybe they are not bringing what they were 10 years ago, but there is still a market. But then houses, property, and other things are not bringing what they were back then either, so it's all relative.


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## Amoreminiatures (May 1, 2014)

I believe the Small Equine / Miniature Horse is here to stay, they cover a large market in our population, first time owners, large horse owners whom have decided the reach is a bit to far up and the ground is hard, children, so on.. I do believe the market is changed in the CONFORMATIONAL desires as a lot of owners are looking for a more refined sleeker type, which has been in MINIATURE HORSES for a extremely long time, if you are a oldie you remember certain bloodlines that were way before their time, and if you are even a older timer you realize MINIATURE SHETLAND was the norm and even they have evolved, so I do not think that is the SHETLAND or it is this or that.. I know toooooooooooooo many people bought a stallion and a mare and thought hey this is a great way to make a buck and the enjoyment of miniature horses of course but people bred like there was no tomorrow to CONFORMATIONALLY challenged horses and produced ..... and continued the cycle, instead of SELECTIVELY breeding horses an thinking what if.. I can't sell, something happens, what if.......... Now, look at what happened............... overbreeding, and not looking at the true realist market and trend, now that folks have stopped over breeding and things are settling down maybe we will see MORE VALUE in our Miniature Horses.. Remember folks there is nothing wrong with GELDING also......... And by the way I am extremely PROUD to be the owner of a TRUE 33" ANYDAY EVERYDAY ASPC AMHR AMHA Stallion whom produces TRUE AMHA AMHR ASPC SIZE miniature horses with babies / FULL ADULT AGE OFFSPRING 31.50" - 33 ... Just my personal opinion...


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## Jean_B (May 2, 2014)

I figure I will do what I want, how I want, when I want and where I want...according to my budget and my goals, to the best of my ability. And when it stops being fun, I will quit. Until then, I will continue to STRIVE to breed a truly [email protected]@ mini that makes my heart skip a beat. And what the rest of the world thinks is really none of my concern. Guess I'm going back to my 60's roots.


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## sfmini (May 2, 2014)

A very positive turn is the addition of minis to the carriage driving world and shows, a brand new opportunity there. Focus on the fact that society is aging and the little horses are a great next step in marketing. More and more of us older folk are moving from riding to driving and minis are a great option as they and their equipment are so much easier to transport than that of the full sized horses.

Personally, we have cut way back, with a goal of enjoying them more.


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## jandjmc (May 3, 2014)

One of the things that I've talked a lot about with my neighbors, is that the vast majority of children aren't being brought up with or exposed to horses of any kind, like they used to be. It seems that the children that do have the good luck to spend time with equines are 1. from families that are horse families already or 2. from a rural environment. People aren't getting "into" the horse world like they used to, because of costs and because really being a horse person, is for the most part a life style.

I had the good fortune of having a loving grandfather who was a farmer and got me my first "shetland" at age 7-8. It was the best gift ever!

But horse activities seem to be center around a few different types of people, long-time lifestyle owners, rural, agricultural families, people with money who can afford horses but who are indulging themselves, and cross over people who have all different types of animals, maybe from the dog world.

I haven't noticed a decrease in the over production of poor quality animals. It seems to me that the groups least likely to produce "excess" animals are the long time horse families. They tend to keep their horses for their lifetimes and the "stock" people who recognize when there is no longer a good market and not profitable.

Around here, horse activity groups are having a real hard time. Support is down. Our 4-h groups and state fair participation are shrinking, in numbers.

OK, I'll get off my soapbox! I will be out there supporting as many clubs as possible and taking good care of my minis as best I can, because they are a blessing.


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## targetsmom (May 4, 2014)

SampleMM said:


> .... Is the market going to continue to be so pitiful that a registered mini can be and is being sold for a couple of hundred dollars? Is it even worth trying to show when it costs so much money to have a trainer and be competitive? Is it even fun to show against other amateurs that are basically pros but "not" actually pros? Is the stress of foaling out a mare worth it when many times there is not a happy ending? Do we need to buy a 34" Shetland which is really 36" (triple registered) in order to keep up with the current trend? Agree or disagree with me, I'm okay with that.


Good questions... thanks for starting the discussion.

I am afraid the market will continue to be poor until "we" start to market the product (minis) as something of value other than just making more minis. There are SO many things that minis can do, even though you can't ride them. Therapy, 4-H work, driving and showing come to mind. Which brings me to showing because we took 4 of our minis to a local open show yesterday (with several of our 4-Hers) and I think the minis may have outnumbered the big horses! Certainly the 2 divisions with minis (Small Equine and Horse in Hand -any size) were the largest divisions at the show!! We also showed minis in the Color Breed and Youngster Division. Many of the minis were unregistered. I think everyone with a mini showed in trail (even our yearling and 2 year old). Entry fees were $9 for 4-Hers (which lots of us were) and $10 for everyone else. Prizes were nice, classes were competitive, and everyone seemed to have a great time. No one at the show could possibly miss the minis and everything they can do. Why aren't there more shows like this???

We have decided that the stress of foaling is NOT worth it and we have stopped breeding after 7 live foals (one of whom died young) and 4 foal/late term losses, some of them horrendous. Just gelded our stallion and his yearling colt in April and Buckshot will be 4-H project soon.

I think there will always be fads and it remains to be seen what will happen with the triple registered minis. I think a bigger question will be what effect the recent availability of the dwarfism testing will have on miniature breeding and sales.


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## MountainWoman (May 4, 2014)

secuono said:


> As just a pet horse owner looking in, I wonder how or why any of you keep breeding and showing.


I love showing. My girls are out with their trainer this weekend and next weekend my boys will be out showing. It's a great adventure and a lot of fun and I do it because I love it. I can't wait to be out showing myself which I plan to do next show season. And it's all building to the excitement of Worlds in the fall.

As to breeding, as I said before, I'm not going to be breeding any longer. I still don't think there are enough long term homes for what is being produced even though there are gorgeous foals being born every day.

In the end, everyone is going to go through some kind of thought process to end up at their personal decisions. And everyone has the right to walk their own path.


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## MountainWoman (May 4, 2014)

Jean_B said:


> I figure I will do what I want, how I want, when I want and where I want...according to my budget and my goals, to the best of my ability. And when it stops being fun, I will quit. Until then, I will continue to STRIVE to breed a truly [email protected]@ mini that makes my heart skip a beat. And what the rest of the world thinks is really none of my concern. Guess I'm going back to my 60's roots.


That's the beginning and the end right there. Well said!!!


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## Gone_Riding (May 4, 2014)

Jandjmc, I totally agree with you: "horse activity groups are having a real hard time. Support is down. Our 4-h groups and state fair participation are shrinking, in numbers." 

With more handheld games and cellphones in the hands of children, they aren't looking up or even around at the opportunities that are out there. Horses are considered expensive and dirty, and yet those that I've talked to with TV bills put out more on their TV than I do on my horses. I'll keep my horses! For the price of one video game, I can feed my horses for a month. What do I get out of it? Exercise, love, peace, discipline, and rejuvenation. What do kids get out of video games? Laziness, disrespect, and selfishness. When my kids are done playing a video game, they are vindictive, bossy, rude, and mad. When they are done playing with the minis? They are patient, kind, helpful, and happy.

I am grateful for our minis. Between my mom and I, we have five. Three mares and two geldings. Mom's in her 70's and she is able to handle and care for horses thanks to minis. She can no longer handle a big horse. We thought it was going to be hard for her to give up riding. Instead, she has replaced it with driving. When she passes on, I will inherit hers, and I won't mind. I'll have three of them in MY 70's. The future of minis? I only know the future of these: A loving home in which we play, drive, and show for the fun of it, not the cost. Besides, the cost of showing is still cheaper than a psychologist!


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## amysue (May 4, 2014)

I commend mary for all of the hard work that she does to promote miniatures by exhibiting their versitality and for working so hard to involve youth with horses. That is the direction that minis should be headed towards in my opinion. All too often prospective buyers say "im looking to get into breeding" or interested onlookers ask "what do you do with these mini horses? Breed them? Since you can't ride them right?" And that in my opinion has led to the downward spiral of breeding and selling breeding and selling. Obviously supply exceeds demand, not to mention greedy, unethical or irresponsible breeding. I think we know the downfalls and where the breed will end up if everyone continues in this direction. I mostly breed on "pre sales" in that a buyer gets put on a list who is looking to buy a particular foal from a planned cross. Most of my foals are sold before they hit the ground so I never have to "settle" for low prices or liquidate. I only expect a few foals every year, only sell to select buyers who farm with horses or show or involve youth. I dont sell people on the "pyramid scheme" of breeding and selling ( it just makes me feel dirty). What I hope more people catch on to is the performance, recreation and youth possibilities that seem to be growing in popularity in the miniature horse world. I think that the registries are trying their best to keep up with the times. I think closing to hardships adds to integrity of bloodlines....papers should indicate quality, but if anyone can "buy" them they lose their meaning. However if they're too hard to obtain, registrations plummet and revenue is lost. I understand the delicate nature of the situation. I like that the registry is allowing useful crosses for sport and performance and I hope it catches on. I get a lot of requests for welsh Shetland crosses to be used as childrens hunter ponies as well as mini Shetland crosses for small child ponies. Offering papers gives the registry a chance to grow and encourages people to use small equine for more things. Yes, I know some people think "oh this crossbred mutt is now papered so it's worth more" and there will always be people like that. But if the majority of people took the opportunity to branch out and find a niche then the future of the industry would look much brighter. 4H is a great start, as it gets youth involved and incorporates agriculture. Tapping into the pony club, academy and hunter jumper circuits as well as driving, obstacles and trail as well as "hour programs" rewarding people's efforts are the future of the industry. Thinking outside the box and going above and beyond "breeding and selling" is the key to it's survival.


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## MountainWoman (May 5, 2014)

Agree with you AmySue. Everyone wants a filly and the poor boys languish and lots of owners keep dropping their prices until they are practically giving them away. Go look at the miniature horse sales pages on FB and there sit the colts. I think we should promote the benefits of geldings and how wonderful they are.

And beyond the usual activities with minis, I highly recommend people start promoting therapy work. It's a wonderful activity to do with minis, gives the horses lots of positive exposure and what better way to give back to your community. Lots of resources available to help them get started as well.


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## Gone_Riding (May 5, 2014)

I've read about the presale breeding option and like it. It's smart.


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## amysue (May 5, 2014)

Yes therapy and volunteer work is a growing trend among small equine enthusiasts as they are less intimidating. I forgot to mention that we participate in lots of community events such as the independence day parade, church carnivals and fall festivals. My town hosts many agricultural fairs as well as community educational lectures and farm tour days. Our town also has an economic development comission who hosts all sorts of events and we bring minis to all of them. Talk to people in your town, people on the boards and comissions, (if there are none, think about forming one) visit your ag center, talk to the schools. So many opportunities are available to expose and promote minis, you just have to be diligent.

On the selling subject, I forgot to mention that contracting buybacks and first right of refusals as well as gelding contracts and showing incentives (like gending futurities) help promote responsibility when selling your stock.


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## Marty (May 6, 2014)

The world doesn't have any animal heroes to worship like they did when I was growing up.I had Lassie and Rin Tin Tin, Fury, and Trigger, The Lone Ranger and heck, I had Mr. Ed. I told my mom and dad when I was just a kid when I grew up I would have a big black horse like Fury and a dog like Rin Tin Tin. I kept my word. When I grew up and got myself a great big black quarter horse that I showed forever in every class I could and a german shepherd dog all on my own and the rest was history.

I used to show Quarter Horses at least once or twice a month with my motorcade of students in toe. I was a 4H horse club leader for 5 years with usually 30-40 kids. When I left Florida some 20 years ago I left 48 weekly students and a barn full of training horses. I come here, and the bottom dropped out. Where's the shows? Where's the horse people? Where's the kids? What the heck happened? 
I'll tell you what happened: Technology happened. The kids all wanted Nintendos and game boys, all that stuff and 13 year old girls were dating and wanted clothes. Parents didn't back up their kids anymore who wanted to ride or participate in any kind of horsemanship. It was so much easier to plant the kid in front of the video games or that Jack butt TV to watch trash. And then kids got lazy and decided horses also meant too much work and way too much responsibility. Now kids have cell phones and cars before they are 16 years old so who the heck is left that still wants a horse? Gosh I must have been a lousy mom because my kids never had a computer or a cell phone or a nintendo because i told them NOPE and to pick up a fishing pole and go fishing or swimming or pick up a bat and ball. Not to mention, clean your stall please before you take off.

Too bad kids now a days didn't have animal heroes to grow up with instead of all the crap they have now. Maybe things would have been different.


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## Field-of-Dreams (May 6, 2014)

Marty, you need to preach that to the world!!


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## HGFarm (May 6, 2014)

AMEN MARTY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Silver City Heritage Farmstead (May 6, 2014)

Birds of a feather Marty!! This what my new neighbors and I were discussing Monday evening. With our cul-de-sac abutting Ft. Bragg Army airfield, we were doing "what-if" and our discussion touched on this thread.

My program focuses on two demographics: the 40+ amateur who may still have fond memories of horses, and military families who will learn the benefits of enjoying equines even though they are a mobile society. I'm planning on increasing my marketing budget significantly (funny...when I'm currently horseless!!) As I've learned from this forum, SCORE, the SBA and other sources during my research, you have to ACTIVELY sell your product. If horses are your business, not your hobby, you must have a presence. With my goals, AMHA/AMHR/ASPC rated shows won't be my main venue for becoming known. State Fair, community activities on base and in local livestock-friendly venues, fundraisers...I think you get my drift. That's who I'm marketing to, so that's where I'll haul my horses.

Have there been any legitimate studies of how the closing of slaughter houses has affected the equine industry? It's a distasteful and controversial subject, particularly with horses. With the massive changes in our culture over the last 100 years, our horses have risen to the same place as Fluffy/Kiki and Spot...they are pets. We don't send Fluffy and Spot to be made into hash, so it goes galls us to do so with horses. However, unless (as an industry-so this statement includes ALL breeds) we are planning on instituting a nationwide spay/neuter program we must find other ways to curtail numbers.

Regulating it goes against the grain for a variety of reasons. Violation of our freedoms under our Constitution. The costs involved to us/taxpayers to write, then pass, then enforce these laws. Deciding WHO gets to decided what are reasonable numbers. After all, my neighbor thinks 20 cats, 1 medium size dog and two adults is reasonable to live in a 12x40 mobile home. The sheer COST to implement is staggering!

Then, we also have to take into consideration the lifespan of horses versus Spot and Fluffy. Fourteen to 15 years for dogs and cats is becoming the norm. Twenty-five to 30 seems to be the norm for horses. Is it any wonder our market is flooded?? So what do you do with the old, infirm and unfit. I won't ask our government to fund old horses' homes...I can't afford it.

Solutions? For me, slaughter with dignity. Put more funds into enforcing the laws we already have on the books for slaughter houses. To be blunt...skinny doesn't sell...simple. Support state Horse Councils, they are in touch with what's going on in YOUR area. Educate, educate and more education. I surf craigslist. Every ad I see with unregistered animals being sold as breeding stock, misinformation, inappropriate horse-handling practices, receives an email. It includes comments on the specific issue that prompted me writing, suggestions, and links to educational materials sponsored by the registries. The majority have responded "thanks, I didn't know". The others have told me to blow it out my....errrrrrr...ear. LOL As a person with a breeders' mindset though, I feel like I've done my duty to my breed.

So how does that ^^^^ answer the OP's question? It doesn't directly. It does offer some options and share my plans. I'll enjoy reading other peoples' plans.


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## sfmini (May 6, 2014)

Dragon's Wish, I am with you on the slaughter issue as sadly what is happening is horses are being slaughtered in Canada and Mexico and from what I hear Mexico is less than humane. For some, horses are a commodity and when they can no longer do their job they have to go. I've heard of horses being abandoned, left to starve, abused. Humane slaughter would be a better option than that, plus like it or not, the slaughter price sets the base value of horses.

Also, when the dog and cat get old, they are somewhat cheaper to keep where an old horse can really get expensive. To most Amish their horses are their cars and tractors, when they can no longer run they are junked.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 6, 2014)

sfmini said:


> Dragon's Wish, I am with you on the slaughter issue as sadly what is happening is horses are being slaughtered in Canada and Mexico and from what I hear *Mexico is less than humane. *For some, horses are a commodity and when they can no longer do their job they have to go. I've heard of horses being abandoned, left to starve, abused. Humane slaughter would be a better option than that, plus like it or not, the slaughter price sets the base value of horses.
> 
> Also, when the dog and cat get old, they are somewhat cheaper to keep where an old horse can really get expensive. To most Amish their horses are their cars and tractors, when they can no longer run they are junked.


Don't kid yourself, Canada's horse slaughter practices (not regs half so much as what actually happens) need an overhaul too. I think Dragon's Wish made some good points, lets see (in my case I'm referring to here in Canada) more money spent on policing the slaughter houses, make sure the horse's that end up there are treated as humanely as possible and make the ill treatment of any animal subject to punishment that has some real deterrent factor rather than a slap on the wrist.


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## Marty (May 7, 2014)

So getting back to the subject at hand about the future of the breed here's my spin on it.

Stop the breeding already. Everyone has a right to make and honest living and if that is selling off their foals, so be it. But anyone that breeds anything now at this stage of the game is not helping the situation of surplus horses. So if you can't get your price I don't feel sorry for you because you contributed to the problem.

I think if anyone wants to help promote the breed and show, the best thing to do for some is not to give up but rather dabble in your own back yard at your local shows. There is not good attendance at the larger breed shows like it used to be and that is a great place to spend a mortgage payment and never get the results you hoped for. Frankly, it costs way too much money for the average Joe with a good horse to show, renting stalls, gas money, hotel fees, and entry fees so many people have backed away. Most people don't have that kind of money anymore to blow. Besides, there's always some drama going on. If it were me wanting to promote my horses, I'd be going to my local shows and shows within a reasonable distance, show out of my trailer for a day and be able to still come home with a jingle in my pocket. I'd be out there encouraging saddle clubs to put in classes for miniatures in a heart beat and you'd be surprised how many of them would be willing to do that. That opens up a whole new venue and brings new blood into the breed. Showing doesn't always have to be about big business and it shouldn't be but that is exactly what it is for way too many. . Its supposed to be about being proud of your little one, showing him off and enjoying him. People have lost sight of that.


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## MountainWoman (May 7, 2014)

Slaughter is a hot topic but perhaps if so many horses weren't being brought into the world each year, we wouldn't be considering sending them to meet their deaths. Horses are expensive and so are minis and I think we do a disservice if we market them as being cheaper than big horses. Yes, they eat less but here at least the vet costs the same, the farrier costs the same and on and on.

Responsible breeding, placement and training of horses and educating people before they buy about the expense entailed and the care involved in owning equines would surely help.

I'm not weighing in on the right or wrong of slaughter because obviously we have a glut of horses and rescues are overwhelmed but I just wish everyone would think before they breed and not breed just because they have a "stud" and a mare.


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## Riverrose28 (May 7, 2014)

We are not showing this year at our local shows although we have shown with our local 4-H club since 1986. My health has gotten to bad to be running around in the heat. I too believe education is the key to promoting the miniature horse and have done my part in the past.

To the point of selling our horses for a decent price, some parts of the country are getting decent prices, but here in the east we are still recessed. I have a friend that paid $20,000 for a quarter horse for her daughter to show, she showed it for a couple of years then got interested in boys. My friend has been trying to sell this horse for several years now but just sold it for $2,500 at a finaicial loss, but as she said a good home is most important. So it is not only the minis selling for a loss here in the east.


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## ckmini (May 7, 2014)

Marty said:


> Showing doesn't always have to be about big business and it shouldn't be but that is exactly what it is for way too many. . Its supposed to be about being proud of your little one, showing him off and enjoying him. People have lost sight of that.


I'd like to piggy back on Marty and other's comments about showing and I've love to see an overall perspective change towards training the miniature horse. Coming from the the "big horse" show world we spend hours working on our showmanship, trail/obstacle, and dressage work with our horses long before we ever get to a show. Showmanship at local shows around here is often the single largest class and it takes a whole lot of horsemanship for a youth to perform an accurate, good test. That's a world of difference from the status quo of handing the youth handler the lead rope from the horse that just won the grand and have them walk in the arena. As another example, look how popular the "extreme trail" classes are, this could be an exciting performance class that our minis and ponies are more than capable of doing.

And then I get to my passion: driving. There is so much more to driving than what we have, and what is seen as "valuable" driving classes. What about a reinsmanship class? a cones course? Things that take TRAINING, not just which horse is the biggest mover in the class. We are doing a huge disservice to our breed (more so in the minis than the ponies) by not promoting training, and I feel that's why we see so many (not all) driving horses retire from the breed show ring at age 5.

My opinion as to the future of the breed? I'd like to see us move away from 100's of halter classes with every split in height, age, ect




and promote the small equine performance animal with an emphasis on training. We need to give people something to work towards, instead of just buying the next 2 year-old once their 5 year-old is 'obsolete'.


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## JMS Miniatures (May 7, 2014)

CK Mini right now AMHR is testing out some new classes. The classics have had the carriage classes for some time but has never been offered to the minis. This year there are several shows around the area hosting carriage classes to the minis. I know at Salina, KS this weekend they will have a timed obstacle driving course and at Glen Rose, TX they will have a carriage driving class.

The classic carriage classes they have carriage driving, carriage reinsmanship, carriage precision driving, carriage-working, and carriage timed obstacle driving.

Hopefully these classes will be well attended. I think it would be very popular in the minis. And your right I am a performance person, very rarely do I show in a halter class, just have the one halter horse and would love it if more clubs hosted performance only shows. The problem of adding these classes is we already have a full class list. Instead of taking away halter classes because I know it would be hard to do we need to take away some of the extra driving classes like, ladies, gentlemen, golden age, mare, stallion, gelding, 3 and 4 year old.


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## targetsmom (May 7, 2014)

I agree with the idea of "training" minis, which I think comes from my big horse background. Especially in the dressage world, I have many, many friends for whom training seems to be the end and not just the means to an end. I could be quite happy just training my minis and seeing them improve without ever going into the show ring myself. That is one of the benefits of having a 4-H Club!!! I already mentioned the local show I went to Saturday on this thread, but I will add that almost all the classes are for performance!!! One halter class (at most) per division, plus a driving division using the USEF rules for carriage driving. Driving classes included turnout, working (a pleasure driving class), Reinsmanship, and Super Reinsmanship (a pattern class). Other local shows have cones classes. These are FUN to train for!!! And the local shows in our area seem to contact ME to ask what classes we want for our minis. How great is that! But we also feel a commitment to bring our minis (and 4-Hers) to the shows.

I agree that local shows are important to promote minis but I see a very new trend that I think could have a bigger impact: video competitions! First there was Horse Agility written about in a recent Journal article, and similar to dog agility. You train your horse of any size for the posted pattern (using easily obtained materials), make a video of you doing it with your horse, and submit the video and entry fee. Classes are judged and prizes awarded. Just this month on Facebook, a Showmanship class has been offered, run the same way. Pattern is posted, you send in a video of you doing it, with a $5 entry fee, and wait for results. No excuse that you don't have a trailer, gas is too expensive, you can't clip your horse, or you are busy that day!! I would love to see more of these competitions and more people having fun training their minis.


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## Max's Mom (May 7, 2014)

Performance classes really are the way to go, in my opinion. When I first started getting connected to other "mini people" I couldn't understand why so many people seemed to show their young ones for a few years, then breed for more babies to sell and show for a short time and breed... Until people can see that minis have a use beyond looking pretty and making babies, I think the breed will suffer.

I'd love to see more diverse performance offerings, shows that include a few games (for kids and those who are kids at heart), and more driving classes, like cones.

One thing I did this year was to organize two new programs for our local club. One is the Ambassador program to recognize those who use their minis for therapy, demonstrations, educational work, etc, and a Driving program to encourage and reward hours spent in recreational driving. At the year end banquet, these horses and handlers will be recognized in addition to those who win the year end championships!


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (May 7, 2014)

As someone who only came into this last year i feel that people like me are the future. I got my mare because i sold my TB who was too much for me and i wanted a companion. my aunt knew someone with a pony looking a home so along i go and i couldn't leave without her. Found out she was registered etc and i showed her and had success. I'm now showing another mini and breeding my mare, and will show the foal. I got the bug because of the character and fun you can have with minis (i'm a nervous rider, could never dream of riding in a show or handling a large horse at one) i seem to be able to click with them, i have been able to train my loan to do a few things. I think the size suits me, as said i'm nervous, and would not do the things i do with a large horse. So yeah, people like me..horse lovers who are afraid...are going to have a place in the future of these horses.


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## ckmini (May 7, 2014)

JMS Miniatures said:


> The classic carriage classes they have carriage driving, carriage reinsmanship, carriage precision driving, carriage-working, and carriage timed obstacle driving.


Yes, I had heard this, and this is a fantastic step in the right direction! But it's going to take promotion from all levels in the industry (judges and trainers included) to view these as worthwhile classes to include in the showbill.

More food for thought:

Others have mentioned the value of minis for those in the youth, aging, chronically injured, or fearful categories of horse owners, which is great, but where do all our youth go after they turn 18? Relatively speaking minis/ponies are not that expensive to show compared to other breeds. I started showing at age 12, competed at my first nationals at 14, and now as a 25 year-old where are all the kids I used to show with? They're doing *exciting* disciples: eventing, barrel racing, jumpers, endurance, foxhunting, ect. While minis and ponies are a great option for those who can't or chose not to compete with "big horses" anymore, they are not a "plan B" by any means! Lets give people a reason to stay with small equines and work hard for their wins!


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (May 7, 2014)

There are probably more "young" people who show atm here than older. They are kids of people who have had minis, to be fair. And i don't know what they do outside of minis, but they win a heck of a lot of shows lol


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## BSharpRanch (May 7, 2014)

I show for fun (and to show off a bit). I prefer performance also. I have found that I really enjoy the multiple hitch driving, however it is very limited at the shows. Just a couple classes at AMHA shows, if it is even offered. My take as to why more people do not show multiple hitch? I drive a four-up right now. 4 X everything, time, harness, etc. And to work that hard to show just one class (to most people) is just a waste, so why bother.

It would be nice if there could be a division for multiple hitch, pleasure, obstacle, reinsmanship, etc. that could be run as a section so teams would only need to be hitched once.

JMTCW.


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## targetsmom (May 7, 2014)

Re; Oldsters vs. youngsters... I happen to feel that miniatures are the perfect horse for us Baby Boomers. I will be showing AOTE (Amateur Owned Trained & Exhibited in AMHA) time this year and thought maybe at age 68 I should get a prize for being the oldest AOTE exhibitor. But then I remembered a friend who is a bit older than I am and has been doing AOTE for a few years already! I love that AMHR has all the classes at Nationals for Golden Agers, not that we will ever get to Nationals. If you ever watch Nationals on-line be sure to catch those classes and see how much FUN those folks are having! I was likely the oldest exhibitor at the Show on Saturday, and showing for sure the YOUNGEST horse (our mini who was a year old that day) and I couldn't be more proud of how we competed in trail and halter. That is what showing is all about folks.


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## melgray97 (May 7, 2014)

Several months ago, I purchased a mini of unknown breeding, but more of the UK Shetland style. She is my driving horse. My Paso Fino is retired, so I had to have something I could keep on my current acreage & something that wouldn't drive up the feed bills too badly. I also desperately wanted to take up driving!

My mini is wonderful. The equipment is smaller and lighter than that for a large pony or horse, it is easier to drive on a small amount of property and still feel like you are "going somewhere", and it's just FUN! Since my mini is not registerable and I have no desire to show in breed shows, I am making contacts with the local driving community and hope to one day, make it to a CDE. There is something to be said for marketing smaller equines to people that are driving and want to downsize or to people that are just getting into driving. I've driven big horses and, after driving a mini, have no desire to go back! Minis are the Miatas of the equine world...ZOOM, ZOOM!


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## MountainWoman (May 8, 2014)

TargetsMom - Love the idea of video competitions. That would open up so much more to lots of people!!

BTW, I love my minis but the thrill of riding horse will never leave my heart. Can't imagine not riding even though my joints are creaking at this point. Lots of us elderly women still ride where I live.


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## targetsmom (May 8, 2014)

MountainWoman - I felt that same way about riding until I realized I could get that same feeling (I rode dressage) from DRIVING a mini who was on the bit and working off her rear end properly!!! And as someone pointed out at the show on Saturday, the fact you can't ride minis also means you can't FALL OFF OF THEM!


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## Gone_Riding (May 8, 2014)

I don't remember who said that minis are not a plan B and I agree! I get so much out of a mini that when my Arabian dies, I probably will not replace her (with another big horse that is). Because I feel safer around the minis, I play with them more. Since my Chloe was born a year ago, I spend as much time with her as I can! I don't miss riding, even though I have full access to a riding horse. I prefer to drive my Arab anyway. I am chomping at the bit for when my Chloe is three for all those performance classes that open up to her! That truly is where the real fun is at a show!


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## MountainWoman (May 8, 2014)

I don't think minis are a plan B at all but there are some of us who love saddling up a horse, heading down a trail riding on that horse or going out on a trail ride with a group of friends. I also love hiking with the minis for a totally different experience. I'll be riding as long as I can climb into the saddle and I'll have minis with me hopefully for the rest of my life. Horses in any shape or form are awesome and I feel very privileged to live on a farm where I can have horses.


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## MiniNHF (May 8, 2014)

MountainWoman said:


> I don't think minis are a plan B at all but there are some of us who love saddling up a horse, heading down a trail riding on that horse or going out on a trail ride with a group of friends. I also love hiking with the minis for a totally different experience. I'll be riding as long as I can climb into the saddle and I'll have minis with me hopefully for the rest of my life. Horses in any shape or form are awesome and I feel very privileged to live on a farm where I can have horses.


Minis were only a plan B for me when it came to training and showing since I cannot physically do that any more with big horses because of my car accident. But I will be getting another horse for at least trail riding but I wont be doing any more than that with them.


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## Foxhaven (May 8, 2014)

Interesting thread...

Coming from the purebred show dog world, and growing up on a TB breeding operation in KY, it all sounds very familiar.

I know in the dog world we do sell every puppy we bring into the world, from CHAMPIONS / GRAND CHAMPIONS who are conformationally correct. We do intensive socialization and developmental work with them from day one. We still have a patient waiting list when done. That is truly a blessing and a luxury and good for the dogs - if it is not a good fit to the (potential) owner, we do not match them. There is no oversupply pressure and if there was we would stop breeding except for our own purposes (showing). We have a lifetime contract to take them back, no questions asked, to prevent their going to shelters or worse. We have only done so once when health issues (of the owner) cropped up, and we placed the young dog again for a happy ending.

(EDIT: and FWIW we still have not made a dime, all things considered... LOL)

This is not the scenario with minis, so we did not even consider breeding (though we *might* someday lease a mare for a foal for our own use - NOT for sale - my wife has never foaled a baby and it is a life experience for sure). The bottom fell out of TB breeding and my dad only dabbled in it thereafter - VERY familiar story to this. He paid the mortgage with cattle.

We got into minis knowing that their chief skill is turning capital into fertilizer... and restoring your soul, and teaching you things about yourself and the world you will not learn any other way. Not to mention... enjoying being your partner pulling a cart, going over obstacles, etc. Or just 'helping' you do chores. Ours have excelled in all these things ;-) but I do see folks watch me drive in public places with that wistful look... they wish they were me in that moment.

Someone in that scenario will make a great and realistic mini owner, and I will refer them to the breeder where we got ours (who seems to place all his foals well).


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## Minimor (May 8, 2014)

Curiosity question here...when you say you have a lifetime contract to take the dog back....do you BUY the dog back? Or is the owner expected to give the dog back?


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## sfmini (May 8, 2014)

In my experience the owner gives the dog back.

The American Driving Society has opened up an entire new world for owners of Very Small Equine, all kinds of show classes along with combined driving.

AMHA added reinsmanship, haven't seen any classes yet, but it looks interesting.

Our local dressage club added a driven dressage division and while the tests look very easy, I bet they are deceptive based on my ridden dressage days. I plan to go watch their first show, and might just show at the end of the summer.

Need to put together some semblance of a dressage ring somewhere.


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## BuckTheBear (May 9, 2014)

I figure I have a pretty unique perspective, so I'll throw it on in here, lol.

I have loved horses all of my life and have always ridden the big ones- whether my discipline be jumping, reining, or barrel racing. I didn't grow up in a horsey family, but my dad says that whenever we drove by horses in the car I would just stare at them in awe. I have always loved being around them and riding, but there was always this fear I had- they were so big! Thusly, since I was ten, I knew I wanted a miniature horse. My parents finally caved when I started having seizures at 16, making it too difficult for me to ride, and I got my little man about 2 weeks ago.

I like the minis more than the bigs. Why? They are adorable, easy to work with, and you never have to be afraid. They are cheaper and a lot less work- I no longer spend 2 hours in the barn scooping poop, I spend 10 minutes and the other hour and 50 minutes playing with my horse! Plus, I don't have the facilities to ride, nor the monthly cash required of boarding. Minis are the perfect animal for horse lovers.

Coming from a newbie teen's perspective, the advice I would give to the industry is to make it more exciting! I find halter and jumping to be absolutely thrilling, but when I watched mini chariot racing on youtube, I was stunned! Think of the horsey sports kids like- barrel racing, jumping, reining, etc. They are EXCITING! They have their trademarks in adrenaline- whipping around the third barrel coming home, those jaw-dropping spins and sliding stops, covering a 4-foot jump with ease! I know that if more exciting events were created with kids and dare-devils in mind, we could really market those and grow more participants and viewers. Racing, "extreme" obstacle courses, freestyle "dancing", etc. People see a mini horse and think "aw, that's cute", and kids don't care (well, normal kids, of which I am not, lol). So... There's my idea.






Also, as far as classes are concerned, there should be more that aren't as competitive and are good for newbies. For example, I think Liberty is the perfect class for newbies because it doesn't necessarily require any training, and you get the creative license of picking a fun song so you can show off your horse. We need more classes like this! I think there should be some way that kids and people who haven't shown much before can still win ribbons, also, even if their horse isn't the greatest. I think classes alter the perceptions that the public has about minis, and if we have fun, exciting, youth-friendly classes and events then people won't look at us and think we're uppity and boring with our halter and pleasure driving.

I also completely agree with the whole horses vs. "media" argument, because I know that when my mom asks me to clean my room after I've been wallowing on the computer or 3DS for 2 hours, I'm probably going to be reluctant, angry, and petty about it. Ask me to clean my room after a day with my horse and I'll be more than willing! When I come out of the barn I feel rejuvenated, happy, and blessed to be alive, though I know I will face horrors on the inside when my seizures inevitably return and render me worthless and exhausted. My horse is something I hold onto, someone who's always there for me, who brings me outside, forces me to work, forces me to think and try, forces me to get exercise and sunshine and makes those moments that I am with him beautiful and precious. Kids need an animal so they can have the same experience- one of the many reasons why I am a huge advocate for shelter animal adoption.

Finally, breeding. Do I think it's worth it to try for a foal? Absolutely! But not at this point in time when there are so many horses wasting away in abandoned paddocks or waiting for a home that will never come. If you are planning on keeping your horse, great! I have sympathy for people who are breeding solid, great-quality animals, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who are breeding unshown, poorly built, or poorly bred animals. That is irresponsible and selfish. If I would ever consider breeding, I would only breed a mare who was at least in the top ten at worlds or nationals. Otherwise, I really wouldn't see the point, despite a "great" pedigree.

Anyway, there's my piece. I know that miniature horses could be as "public" as thoroughbred racing with the proper branding, shows, and advertising. We need to bring more kids to the mini side.


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## Gone_Riding (May 9, 2014)

BuckTheBear said:


> Do I think it's worth it to try for a foal? Absolutely! But not at this point in time when there are so many horses wasting away in abandoned paddocks or waiting for a home that will never come. If you are planning on keeping your horse, great! I have sympathy for people who are breeding solid, great-quality animals, but I have no sympathy whatsoever for people who are breeding unshown, poorly built, or poorly bred animals. That is irresponsible and selfish.


I almost totally agree with you. I believe in breeding quality stock that a person registers, even if they are not shown. While I prefer their parents to be a somebody, I care more about quality and registry. One can only get so much money for an unregistered animal, and they have no proof of its true age. However the sky's the limit with a registered animal.

When I wanted to breed my mini, who is unshown in AMHR shows but of excellent quality and 25% arenosa, I wanted a quality stud for her. My best friend told me there was someone just three miles from me that would probably let me breed for free. When I asked if he was registered, the answer was no. The stud was a nobody from a nobody. The progeny of senseless backyard breeding. He was a true candidate for gelding, but to the owners, he's "special and deserves to have offspring and gelding is expensive"... My best friend gawked at me preferring to pay a stud fee until I explained that I didn't just want another mini. If I was going to bring one into the world, I was going for the best I could find and afford.

I ended up looking at buying a quality gelding instead of breeding. When I went to see him, I liked him and agreed to purchase him. That was when the woman said, "Oh, and check out my stud!" The moment I saw him, I knew he was the guy I was looking for: looks, pedigree, and color. I was expecting a large stud fee, but due to him being so young and unshown, I got lucky.

The combo was my dream palomino filly with excellent conformation and a fun personality. If I would have went with the other stud to save a buck, I'd have a grade, low quality mini that wouldn't be worth the money to geld but would have to be. I'm proud of owners that geld. Owning a stud is a big responsibility, but since backyard owners figure they aren't dealing with the foal, they think it's a waste of money to geld. Especially since they can let the neighbors use the guy.

If a person wants to breed, then breed responsibly. If one hasn't been able to sell last year's foals, a new crop isn't going to help the matter. If it's for oneself, then breed the best one can, because if something happens and the foal needs a new home, it has the best chance at a good one.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 9, 2014)

Gone_Riding said:


> I almost totally agree with you. I believe in breeding quality stock that a person registers, even if they are not shown. While I prefer their parents to be a somebody, I care more about quality and registry. One can only get so much money for an unregistered animal, and they have no proof of its true age. However the sky's the limit with a registered animal.
> 
> When I wanted to breed my mini, who is unshown in AMHR shows but of excellent quality and 25% arenosa, I wanted a quality stud for her. My best friend told me there was someone just three miles from me that would probably let me breed for free. When I asked if he was registered, the answer was no. The stud was a nobody from a nobody. The progeny of senseless backyard breeding. He was a true candidate for gelding, but to the owners, he's "special and deserves to have offspring and gelding is expensive"... My best friend gawked at me preferring to pay a stud fee until I explained that I didn't just want another mini. If I was going to bring one into the world, I was going for the best I could find and afford.
> 
> ...


I agree with what you are saying and this phrase really jumped out at me. Minis are the only 'breed' of horse or type of animal that I can think of that instead of considering an animal not worth keeping intact people will instead think it is not worth the 'investment' to geld it. Along with that attitude comes the inclination to think it is also 'not worth the money to worm, give vet and farrier care, feed good food too and ultimately even spend time with.


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## targetsmom (May 9, 2014)

Pinto offers gymkhana driving classes - barrels, poles, flag race and i think keyhole. No reason others couldn't offer them too. An ADS cones class can be pretty exciting too and lots of fun to train for! We like Progressive Cones - the distance between the cones gets smaller with each pair on the course - because minis can compete well against the bigs. And don't get me started on the fun you can have with a plastic sled in the snow! There are really unlimited possibilities of fun things to do with minis.


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## JMS Miniatures (May 9, 2014)

Well it sounds like we need open miniature horse shows, or say anything under 48" show. I got started in all-breed open horse shows, and they were fun and they accepted the minis, the one that I was big with was with the ABRA. Able to do halter, color, lounge line, showmanship and trail. It was fun but it was costing almost as much as the AMHR shows so I stopped. But these fun classes would be awesome to have at the registry shows but I don't see it happening. Which is why I suggested a open mini/pony shows. Get together in groups and come up with fun classes. I know if they were close to me I would be very interested as I would love to take a break from the registry shows. Bring out the senior horses that have been there done that at the AMHR shows and just have fun. Thats why I would loved to do CDE in the future. But these open shows would be great for new comers, get outside people interested in the minis. It would also be great if clubs could do this to get new people involved withe the registry. And keep it financial friendly.

Hopefully these Carriage classes will be big for AMHR, I think t would get new people or bring people back to the registry.


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## Minimor (May 9, 2014)

Well, we tried having open classes at one of our AMHR shows, for two years-we put in several open classes for 46" and under --halter, showmanship, driving and--the first year--pleasure saddle. We did not allow cross wntry with the AMHR and ASPC classes to encourage owners with grade horse's to show without competing against those that were in the breed classes. That first year we got one grade pony for halter and driving (they also entered the second year) and we got some misfit grade minis ridden by oversize kids. That didn't look good so the second year we fldropped the saddle class. Still just one entry otherwise. This year even that entry was not coming so we dropped the classes. So--just not something that goes over well here. We do have a good number of fairs that offer mini classes--I think the entries must have papers but i could be wrong in that. I used to show Morgans at a bunch of local fairs but now that i am showing small equine I have no interest in showing at the fairs. Many of the people showing at the fairs have no interest in showing at the breed shows; a few show at both.


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## BSharpRanch (May 10, 2014)

I thought what would be good to do, about six montys before a big, local show, would be to do a "mini show circuit" that would be open to all minis in the size range of the show. IE; 38 and under if the upcoming show was R, 34 and under if it was an A. Just have basic classes to keep it fun and moving. Like halter foal, halter yearling, Halter mare, gelding, stallion., halter champion. Performance could be hunter, jumper, obstacle in hand and driven, and some pleasure driving classes along with perhaps reinsmanship. Could do a possible split of youth, amateur, and open for the performance classes and then have high point and reserve like the big horse horse shows do. Then do an overall HP champion at the end of six months. Then the following month would be the big, registered show. The benifits to this are many and would include, schooling opportunity for the registered horses, learning experience for newbies, possible sales for registered stock, getting people pumped up for the real deal show. And show attire could be relaxed to make it a fun deal, with no pressure to newbies to have to buy expensive clothes, halters, harnesses or carts. Clean, safe and tidy yes, expensive, no.

I would support such a show series if it was local and the fees were kept minimal.


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## MountainWoman (May 10, 2014)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> I agree with what you are saying and this phrase really jumped out at me. Minis are the only 'breed' of horse or type of animal that I can think of that instead of considering an animal not worth keeping intact people will instead think it is not worth the 'investment' to geld it. Along with that attitude comes the inclination to think it is also 'not worth the money to worm, give vet and farrier care, feed good food too and ultimately even spend time with.


That's because so many people think just because minis are small they can keep that boy intact and it's no problem as it would be with a full size horse and then they can make more minis and sell them for some money or have the joy of bringing a foal into the world without a a thought that foals require training and much more. I see so many "studs" being offered for sale for next to nothing when what they need is to be gelded and taken out of the breeding population. And just because you have a mare doesn't mean she has to make babies.

And a horse that comes from good lines doesn't in and of itself make it breeding quality. Even two titled parents can produce a pet quality offspring from time to time so when I see ads saying top lines, etc., it doesn't mean in and of itself that you have a breeding quality horse but a lot of newbies get sucked into thinking just because their mini has so and so for a grandsire or great grandsire then they have a top horse. There's a lot to learn before you actually start putting foals on the ground to sell. And a lot to learn before you send that horse to a trainer as well.

And of course there are those of us looking at 500.00 minis and those of us looking at 10,000.00 minis and the two groups will never meet and have different perspectives on what makes a quality horse.

In the end, you need to think about your finances, the room you have, whether you are in a position to keep a foal if you can't find the right home and what your expectations are for that foal and then to each their own about their personal decisions to breed.


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## My2Minis (May 13, 2014)

I think a great future for miniature horses would be local, open fun shows for registered and unregistered horses. Driving, games, in-hand classes, jumping. There are lots of backyard horses and people who don't want to compete in the big breed shows (or don't have registered horses) who would probably come to affordable and fun local shows. I would.


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## jandjmc (May 13, 2014)

Just this last weekend our local club (Land of Enchantment Miniature Horse Club) sponsored a 2 day AMHA, AMHR show that offered open classes for any equine under 48 inches. Some classes had 3-4 horse, others 1 or none. We also offered a cones scurry and barrels. Our mini world will only grow if we offer classes for a variety of small equines and a place that beginners can go to experience some fun and success. IMO


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## sihri (May 14, 2014)

I am a small miniature horse farm and have produced 2 foals and hardshipped my champagne miniature mare. Because of the current market I have not been able to sell so did not breed for 2014 and do not think I will for 2015 either until one of my fillies sells for the correct price for the quality. We got into minis for my son who is disabled they are great therapy for him. The champagne mare was hardshipped for him and the fact that she may be a new line in the champagne miniatures. When will we breed her not sure but for now my son can learn and enjoy her and our other minis. I enjoy them too but I want to make sure my foals go to the correct home. There are so many available that for now not breeding is probably the best choice or if you do decide to breed do it for you not to sell to preserve the quality and genetic diversity of our minis. Fads come and go but quality should be forever. As far as the market only time will tell.


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## Marty (May 14, 2014)

Here's another thought: Clinics.

When I was a 4H leader looking for more members for our club, it was brought to my attention that most of the kids didn't have a clue about shows and showing. Eager to please, I then started holding clinics and mock shows before the real season show kicked in. We did build quite a membership once the kids and parents knew what it was all about.

Perhaps if there were more clinics, it could draw some new blood.


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## Tab (May 14, 2014)

As long as there are people who love minis there will be minis. This will be my 17th year in minis. I have definitely felt exactly what you are experiencing. Yes, I think they will bring financial loss. If I didn't trim our own, hay my parents field, and pasture in our entire meager acreage there is no way I'd own a horse, any horse of any size. If I cared about what farm xyz did with their horses I would have given it up long ago. No ribbon or trophy could change the Love of my horses, so I don't show. Wrong time in my life with the ages of my kids and our finances. I think the 34" and under crowd is seeing great flux. AMHR seems to have its advantages. However, I don't do fads, and under 34" is going to be my breeding program until further notice. AMHA is my registry. As for foaling, do it for yourself. My number has been between 5 and 10 since I was 18, and if I don't have space to keep I won't breed. I will go years between breeding even though raising and training foals is my passion.

Risk mitigation: There are a couple of things breeding while living in the northern chill has taught me. I never purposely breed for a foal to be born earlier than May. It's too blasted cold, the horses are at the height of shedding, the mares body needs the bloom of dandelions and lush grass to ready herself for foaling and lactation after a soul-sucking Winter. I had one foal in April and I will never do that again. I slept in the barn pre heat lamp and thought I was going to die. The cord snapped prematurely during the birth and both mare and foal lost a lot of blood. If you've ever experienced blood loss you know it makes you cold. Set up with a heat lamp for the pair and rigged up a little Penn State sweater for the foal. Likewise, I had one in August and one in September. Also big mistakes on my part. However, nothing you do or do not do is going to prevent losses. As mom's we risk our lives to bring babies into the world. The mares and foals are also at risk. That is the nature of birth. You just pray but suck happens, it is inevitable.

I am so psyched by these posts. Miniature horse people are the TRUE horse people. We don't necessarily need to ride to love horses. Minis are not worth it from a financial standpoint, but they are emotionally worth it. I experience daily adventures with mine, and they help bring me down to earth. I'm raising my boys with horses; reading the post has cemented my resolutions e to continue to raise them around horses! You know, our Winter was horrible. I'm still traumatized. Hang in there!


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## Foxhaven (May 20, 2014)

Minimor said:


> Curiosity question here...when you say you have a lifetime contract to take the dog back....do you BUY the dog back? Or is the owner expected to give the dog back?


Sorry, been quite busy and missed your question.

We are essentially co-owners of the dogs for life. Which means, we take responsibility for them and they cannot be resold nor rehomed nor taken to a shelter without permission (which of course is not granted - we will rehome them or care for them ourselves).

The ONE time we have acted on the dog's behalf we offered a refund on their deposit, which they refused. First rate people, just ran into unforeseen difficulties. It happens. We scrambled and found an appropriate home.

This is probably not necessary in the mini world (and certainly not customary) but I hope something of that sort may be food for thought, since so many horses are facing the same kinds of ends as so many dogs.

It's a safety net. For the animal.


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## MiniNHF (May 21, 2014)

Marty said:


> Here's another thought: Clinics.
> 
> When I was a 4H leader looking for more members for our club, it was brought to my attention that most of the kids didn't have a clue about shows and showing. Eager to please, I then started holding clinics and mock shows before the real season show kicked in. We did build quite a membership once the kids and parents knew what it was all about.
> 
> Perhaps if there were more clinics, it could draw some new blood.


Clinics would be great, in my area there are none unless I want to go 3+ away or more. There are tons and tons of big horse clinics, dressage, cross country, jumper etc you name it there is a clinic around here for it in a reasonable distance and with well known trainers.


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## paintponylvr (May 21, 2014)

Foxhaven said:


> Sorry, been quite busy and missed your question.
> 
> We are essentially co-owners of the dogs for life. Which means, we take responsibility for them and they cannot be resold nor rehomed nor taken to a shelter without permission (which of course is not granted - we will rehome them or care for them ourselves).
> 
> ...


I have often purchased back ponies and horses that I've sold. In a couple of cases, I found purchasers whom I felt would match the pony, took them to the current owner and let them hash out the purchase details.

I once had a pair of full sisters that I'd sold, offered back to me - they'd grown up and had loads of excellent training and mileage in single, pair and 4 up driving for pleasure, on trails and were competitive in CDE up past the beginner levels (not sure what they were presented in). I simply could not afford what the woman was asking for them and she wasn't willing to work out a payment plan. So the pair was split up. That was a number of years ago. Recently, they were "reunited" as a pair and will be driving again at local drives and CDE's. I have been happy to keep up with them and most of the other ponies and horses I've sold over the years. I've lost track of some...

With some of my "beginner" ponies/minis, I've found leasing works better. There are many families that ride and they don't want minis/ponies forever. So, I've found a nitch with a couple of ours that is filled by leasing. When that child or family outgrows my pony, she comes home. I have always done this with mares, except for 3 geldings. When I was breeding/raising cross bred ponies - I had a couple of families that would bring one back and take another that was larger until again they were outgrown (3 of our young geldings got lots of mileage this way, when returned home they were sold at a higher price than I would have gotten previously). I liked this - I retained ownership of my mares, yet when I wasn't breeding them they were doing something after my own family outgrew them for riding and then when they returned home I went back into breeding the smaller shetlands again. I also leased our shetland stallion out for two years this way. It was a win/win situation for us. A few of the leases were paid, most were "free". I agreed to allow the mares to be bred for a couple of families - I did the paperwork to register the foal that were registrable (one mare wasn't a shetland/mini). I even sent the ponies own equipment with her in some cases, which came back home when she did. I have not had problems doing this - though in two different cases I picked up the pony much earlier than we'd expected to. One, the little boy had grown too much and also lost interest in riding; the second, the grandmother who leased and maintained the pony came down very ill and wasn't able to keep her. I picked both up - 10 years apart in our leasing program.




I have leased horses that I've had great experiences with and a couple that were returned early.


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