# Miniature Horse dwarfism - Test Now Available!



## horsehug (Apr 10, 2014)

Testing is now available for miniature horse dwarfism. I am so thankful to John Eberth for his countless hours and many many years of work on this! http://www2.ca.uky.edu/gluck/AGTRL.asp#tests 

If my link does not work, message me and I'll give you the link to post.

Susan O.

edited to update link ---> http://getgluck.ca.uky.edu/content/dwarfism


----------



## Vertical Limit (Apr 10, 2014)

Thanks for posting the link Susan. I hope that people take advantage of it. Small price to pay. And yes, a huge thank you to John Eberth for the many hours he has spent on this.


----------



## Debby - LB (Apr 10, 2014)

This is wonderful!! it's a most historic day for the Miniature Horse World!!!! I'm going to go read and print so I can get mine tested. Thank you for posting Susan. Big thank you to John Eberth


----------



## amysue (Apr 10, 2014)

Thank you for posting this! I have a lil mini that I want to test.


----------



## eagles ring farm (Apr 10, 2014)

What a huge breakthru ...thank you for posting


----------



## REO (Apr 10, 2014)

Fantastic!


----------



## Arion Mgmt (Apr 10, 2014)

If anyone has any questions regarding the tests or results feel free to message me or email me. You can talk to the Dr. Graves in the lab but she and I will be communicating most of the time anyways. Sorry it took so long to get them publicly available after I finished my research.


----------



## Scottishlass (Apr 10, 2014)

This is so wonderful. Huge Thank you to John Eberth for all his work. I pray that all breeders test there horses. Already printed the forms to test my 2 stallions to start. Then will go from there on mares as we can.

I am so thrilled, this has made this a fabulous day. Thanks for posting horsehug!!!





I will be posting the results on my two boys on my website, regardless of the results. I personally want the results of my stock public. May have tough choices to make, but worth it in the long run. Praying for best results, but will accept what they are.


----------



## Margo_C-T (Apr 10, 2014)

This is long-anticipated, WONDERFUL news!May I add my thanks to John Eberth...and will say, if I were still breeding, I'd be at the front of the line to have all of my breeding stock tested; hope all dedicated breeders will!


----------



## ohmt (Apr 10, 2014)

I am SO excited!! This is a game changer


----------



## Marty (Apr 10, 2014)

This is the most incredible news ever!


----------



## horsehug (Apr 10, 2014)

Hey John, I want to truly thank you for putting up with my questions clear back from ten years ago or more and helping me learn more and more about this as you did your research. I remember having to have you explain some things about the different types over and over til I grasped how the genetics worked. I have been checking the website the last two months ever since you and Dr. Graves told me it was basically ready, and I'm sorry if I drove either of you nuts! I truly have tried to be patient all these years, knowing it was extremely complicated and you were working incredibly hard on it. You have been a great mentor and don't be surprised if I still have questions from time to time . I was soo excited this morning when I checked the website and saw it was ready!



I'll always remember this day.

Susan O.


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 10, 2014)

What wonderful news and how ironic that the test was first announced today - on my birthday and the day I gelded both our boys because we are getting out of breeding. Based on the lack of interest and response to the letters to the editor that I submitted to MHW and the Journal, I am not real optimistic about interest in the actual testing. Unless of course, some major breeder runs the tests and finds a stallion without any of the dwarf genes and decides to advertise the fact. That might just do it....


----------



## Carolyn R (Apr 10, 2014)

Very exciting news for those that breed. I am just hoping that there are more responsible/honest individuals than not. There will always be individuals that will pawn of horses with applications that are not valid, bad bites, prior injuries, disposition issues that do not make them a good match for the home they are going into......as always, buyer beware and now that this is available, I am sure there will be plenty of pre sale testing for breeders that will allow potential clients to do so ( or offer it as a standard procedure).


----------



## susanne (Apr 10, 2014)

.

This is incredible news!

We can all play our part in this by only buying horses from those who test and share proof of the results. We have the tools, now we must use them for the good of our breed.

AMHA and AMHR should note test results on a horse's papers. I'm sure many would object if this were a requirement, but it could at least be an option that would follow a horse throughout his or her life.


----------



## Danielleee (Apr 11, 2014)

YES! This is awesome!!!!! Totally gonna pay to get my grandmothers one stallion tested (he hasnt been used for breeding but just in case she decides she wants to breed him)


----------



## Tremor (Apr 11, 2014)

You guys do not know just how hard it was for me to conceal my excitement at work tonight...especially in front of truck drivers. (I work at a decent sized truck stop)

So. Freaking. Excited.


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 11, 2014)

I am going to test the broodmare I have for sale and if she tests negative you can be sure the ad (and the price) will change. I already have color test results on AMHA papers for last year's foals so I don't see why these results could not be added easily to A papers. Next step is for buyers to shop for breeding minis with negative test results.


----------



## Arion Mgmt (Apr 11, 2014)

I would like to announce that Alvadars Double Destiny is NEGATIVE for ALL four dwarf mutations (D1,D2,D3,D4).


----------



## JMS Miniatures (Apr 11, 2014)

susanne said:


> .
> 
> This is incredible news!
> 
> ...


It was announced on FB yesterday that AMHR will put results on the papers for a small fee.

This will change the miniature horse industry and I hope many will do this. I'm hoping to start breeding again in the near future so I already sent in for one of 2 of my mares this morning.


----------



## Margo_C-T (Apr 11, 2014)

Well, I certainly hope that AMHA will step up to the plate and do the same thing(put the dwarf testing results on the papers(and amy fee SHOULD be small, IMO!)


----------



## Tremor (Apr 11, 2014)

JMS Miniatures said:


> It was announced on FB yesterday that AMHR will put results on the papers for a small fee.
> 
> This will change the miniature horse industry and I hope many will do this. I'm hoping to start breeding again in the near future so I already sent in for one of 2 of my mares this morning.


I'm curious. Say I have a mare who tests as a full blown dwarf and send in her test results because she IS registered, will they strip the papers? How would that affect offspring that are registered or are going to be, if they are not dwarves but are carriers?

(Just thinking here)


----------



## Tremor (Apr 11, 2014)

JMS Miniatures said:


> It was announced on FB yesterday that AMHR will put results on the papers for a small fee.
> 
> This will change the miniature horse industry and I hope many will do this. I'm hoping to start breeding again in the near future so I already sent in for one of 2 of my mares this morning.


Do you have a link to that post? I couldn't find it?


----------



## horsehug (Apr 11, 2014)

Tremor, I don't think I'm supposed to put a link to FB on here but if you go to FB and type in
ASPC/AMHR/ASPR in the search bar you will get the page that Lewella posted it in. Just scroll down til you see her post, not very far down.

Susan O.


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Apr 11, 2014)

I'm in the 'no longer breed' group but I think this is *very* good news. How wonderful to be able to tell ahead of time what you are dealing with and what the risks are! Thank you to those who have spent so many long hours deciphering this genetic puzzle and making this test available.


----------



## Watcheye (Apr 11, 2014)

This is amazing. I thought it was years off!


----------



## Lewella (Apr 13, 2014)

The ASPC/AMHR Board of Directors voted at Convention in November that once available, members would be able to record Dwarf test results on their horse's registration papers. Having the results recorded will incur a registration paper update fee just like adding color test results (which AMHR will also do).

Tremor - the ASPC/AMHR Board of Directors has not yet addressed the possible issues with test results that indicated the horse that was tested was itself a dwarf.


----------



## Tremor (Apr 13, 2014)

Thank you! Cannot wait to here updates!


----------



## Maple Hollow Farm (Apr 13, 2014)

This is great news. Just will take me a while to be able to afford to test all of our horses at that price. I am unemployed so dont have tons of extra cash laying around LOL! I would assume AMHA would have no problem with adding the testing results to the papers since they already allow the color testing results to be added. Would be interesting to call and ask and find out


----------



## JMS Miniatures (Apr 14, 2014)

I don't see how the registries can take away registration papers to those who tested positive. Possibly if they make it into effect on future registrations where they make every foal tested before registration and you have to test negative for all panels then yes I can see them deny registration. But I think the registries will loose money on registrations that way.

It's important unfortunately it's going to be costly but who know how widespread these horses will test positive for the dwarf gene.


----------



## stormy (Apr 14, 2014)

So some food for thought.....the test is here, costly so can't run out and test everyone all at once but here are some random thoughts

Most of the conversation here is about eliminating carriers.....not just testing to assure positive is not bred to positive as in LWO for instance.....what is the feeling about this.....

remove everything carrying any of the 4 identified mutations?

test and breed with full knowledge to eliminate the chance of producing a dwarf but not selecting against carriers? (as is currently be done with LWO)

test all stallions and use only negative stallions and breed out the mutations over time?

If elimination is the answer what becomes of the non-expressing carriers?

and of course we really won't know for a while how prevalent these mutations are so at this point is just discussion but I think worth some serious thought.


----------



## susanne (Apr 15, 2014)

We have a performance-only registry, and many AMHR, ASPC, AMHA and other show horses are never bred. Geldings do just great and often show for a longer time since they are not retired to the breeding shed.

There are so many things a horse can do other than breed, and this is equally true with non-expressing dwarf carriers. Consider the youth who will benefit from showing an experienced show horse. Perhaps we will see horses older than three years in the senior classes? And then there is CDE, ADS shows, and recreational driving...

I believe that to continue breeding carriers (albeit to non-carriers) is to simply kick the can down the road. The recessive gene will survive and put future generations at risk. Breeders of integrity will test their stock and avoid breeding two positive horses, but we all know there are too many irresponsible or ignorant breeders who will allow dwarfism to continue.


----------



## little lady (Apr 15, 2014)

This is fantastic! After all the hard work to see this come to fruition. I was able to attend a Little King Farm seminar and hear first hand John's valuable information. Hoping the miniature horse can make great strides forward with this.


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 15, 2014)

This discussion is now getting to the nitty-gritty of the dwarfism issues. This is likely the reason that the letters I wrote to MHW (which didn't publish it) and the Journal (which did but did not seem to get any reaction) got the reactions they did (or didn't!) get. It would have been nice to see some of this type of discussion in the breed magazines. I think it is hard to make decisions without knowing how many horses will test positive for one of the dwarf genes, but I believe John Eberth estimates it may be 25-40%. One perhaps unintended consequence of the recent re-infusion of ASPC blood into minis will be the reduction in those numbers.

I have hair samples from one mare on the way to be tested, but since I am no longer breeding, it really doesn't matter to me how she tests. I have absolutely no reason to think she will be positive for any of the 4 genes, but we will see. She is for sale, and my plan is to post the test results in the ads. I want to set an example. I would like to see dwarfism treated like LWO, which I am quite familiar with. As long as horses that are carriers of the gene suffer no consequences (until they are crossed with another carrier) I see no reason to eliminate them from the gene pool (like LWO). Dwarfism is more complex because 4 genes are involved, but (as I understand it) as long as you don't cross certain genes, you will be OK. Certainly if you cross a horse negative for all 4 genes with one positive for one or more you will not get a dwarf, but maybe another carrier. But dwarfism is also different from LWO in that some of the combinations produce early abortions and NOT LIVE DWARFS. Like those mares that "slip a foal" or are hard to get in foal. From John's thesis, it looks like about half the gene combinations that produce "dwarfs" don't produce live dwarfs, but an early fetal loss. How many breeders have had one of those? We had one several years ago where the mare was U/S as pregnant but never foaled. Was she a carrier? I have no idea and we no longer own her. Most breeder probably just breed the mare again, and don't even think about the fact it might have been a dwarf.

I see the testing as making it much easier to figure out which horses to cross safely with no chance of producing a live dwarf. And that breeders may not all use the information the same way - some might risk a slipped foal if a live dwarf is not possible from the gene combinations. Some breeders already know which stallions and mares are carriers so maybe they feel they don't need to test. But I think having information on which genes are involved will be useful to breeders who understand the genetics.


----------



## BSharpRanch (Apr 15, 2014)

Okay, let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. We all know what a responsible breeder will/should do. However, we all know that there are a few who love money more then horses and may/will be testing their horses for the genes and breeding + to + to increase their chances of getting the dwarf that will bring big bucks. So it is possible that with the great intentions of minimizing dwarfism, some may be using this test for the wrong reasons. Food for thought.


----------



## Tremor (Apr 15, 2014)

BSharpRanch said:


> Okay, let me play Devil's Advocate for a moment. We all know what a responsible breeder will/should do. However, we all know that there are a few who love money more then horses and may/will be testing their horses for the genes and breeding + to + to increase their chances of getting the dwarf that will bring big bucks. So it is possible that with the great intentions of minimizing dwarfism, some may be using this test for the wrong reasons. Food for thought.


Then we can only hope that they misinterprete the results and they end up carrying D1 carriers to each other.

A dead foal is better than a suffering foal.


----------



## wingnut (Apr 15, 2014)

This is great news! I'm not a breeder nor am I in the market for a horse. I do, however, take every opportunity to educate people about miniature horses. One of the things I stress is the issue of dwarfism. I can now tell people who may be interested in purchasing a mini that they are best served by finding a line that's been tested and found to be negative.


----------



## horsehug (Apr 15, 2014)

I have a question for any and all who would like to give your thoughts on it.

If you test and find some of your horses are carriers, but very nice correct examples of miniature horses.......... what do you plan to do with your carriers.......?

Keep them for showing or pets or therapy or some other purpose, but not breed them?

Sell them *Honestly* as carriers, but possibly at even lower prices than the market has fallen to in recent years?

Find them good adoptive homes as loved pets?

Continue to breed them knowing if you breed them to non carriers, you will never produce a dwarf and only have a 50% chance of producing another carrier, and realizing they have good characteristics to add to the gene pool, and will still be gradually weeding this gene out as time goes by?

Other options?

It will be interesting to finally find just how prevalent this is if enough people step forward and test their horses. In my 26 years in the miniature world I have known of many NICE minis that are carriers, some for sure nicer than some non carriers! And I just tend to wonder what will become of them.

Thanks!

Susan O.


----------



## BSharpRanch (Apr 15, 2014)

I have another question as for some reason the past links to the initial information on the research only pulled up a blank page for me. Will these test test for the hot dog type dwarves? The type that resemble a normal mini on very short legs?


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 15, 2014)

The tests do not test for the "hot dog" type dwarfs with short legs in relation to body.

I will tell you what I plan to do with the test results on my mare - no matter what they are. I plan to add the test information to the ad, and tell anyone who expresses interest in her what they are. I figure that ANY information about dwarf genes is better than no information and you have to start somewhere. I am only selling her as a broodmare because I feel for this mare - a daughter of Cross Countrys Call Me Sir with a stellar production record - that is her chief calling in life. I do not plan to change the price. (I hope the moderator does not consider this an ad because I think the info needs to be in here to make my point about the dwarfism testing). So yes, if she turns out to be a carrier, I will still offer her as a broodmare pointing out that any OTHER mare on the market could ALSO be a carrier but this way you at least know which gene the mare carries and can select a stallion accordingly to avoid a dwarf foal.

Now, all our OTHER mares are being used for 4-H and our stallions have all been gelded and will also be used for 4-H and therapy work. Our youngsters and our all-around show mare Princess will be hitting the show ring in A, R, and local shows and (as appropriate) ADS events. I do not see any need to have them tested.


----------



## horsehug (Apr 21, 2014)

I got some good news today from Dr. Graves at the U of KY. She said they have been swamped with people sending in samples to be tested. I'm so glad lots of people are taking advantage of this test and having their minis tested.

Susan O.


----------



## Scottishlass (Apr 21, 2014)

That is awesome to hear. I thought the test being available would have gone viral, but I see almost no one talking about it. While it has only been 10 days I am waiting for results to see where we go with breeding.


----------



## horsehug (Apr 21, 2014)

Scottishlass, I was surprised at first also that almost no one is talking about it. But I think maybe it makes lots of people nervous, to find out, since we have been told the % can be high for carriers. But even if they are not talking I was excited to hear that lots are testing






Susan O.


----------



## Meavey (Apr 22, 2014)

I am in The Netherlands and have send in samples of my two, 2yr old colts last week.
I want to know before I even start breeding with them, as I feel when a stallion carries it, no one would want a foal from him anyway, so he should be gelded.

I agree this test is gonna bring some changes in the mini world!
And YES it will cost money, carriers wil absolutely be lowered in price, but the free ones will go up in price!
And any good breeder would want to make the breed better and stronger.

I am now doing my two young colts, and will do my mares later on, need to save some money for that too.
Will I stop breeding my mares if they test positive? Good question, first of all a few of my mares are what I feel just awesome, and awesome producers, so if they do test positive I would be gutted...
For now I think I will geld the stallions for sure, stallions (can) produce much more offspring then mares, so that would be my opinion.
For my mares, I think I will continiue at first, testing all the offspring and again gelding the positive colts.
We will just have to see how many horses are really gonna test positive, and yes I am gonna be honest about it too.

But let's be honest now that the test is here... I would not buy, or breed with, a horse that is not tested anymore!
And I think the rest will follow.B
Lets be real if you want to make sales in the future you are just gonna have too.
It would be great if testing could be together wil PQ-ing for example?


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 22, 2014)

Meavey said:


> And YES it will cost money, carriers wil absolutely be lowered in price, but the free ones will go up in price!


I definitely agree that having the test WILL change things, and not everyone will make the same decisions about the test. And gelding stallions is rarely a bad idea. I agree that those minis free of all 4 ACAN genes should go UP in price, but I don't agree that carriers will be lowered in price. How can knowing WHICH of the genes they carry make them worth LESS than not knowing which ones they carry?

This is what always bothered me about people gelding a stallion as soon as it had a dwarf foal. Before the test was available, how could you possibly know that the stallion you replaced him with was not going to produce another dwarf foal for you? Now, with the test, you can at least make sure of the status of any replacement.

Have any of you really thought through what you will do if your stallion or mare tests positive for D1 but not D2-D4? Or tests positive only for D2-D4, but not D1?


----------



## Debby - LB (Apr 22, 2014)

Linda (Meavey) my sentiments exactly! I hope to see others follow this game plan.


----------



## Tremor (Apr 22, 2014)

Now here's my question, will those of you who have tested their horses share their results once they've arrived?

Because I am insanely curious.


----------



## Minimor (Apr 22, 2014)

I think...whether or not the value (sale prices) of tested and proven carriers drops will depend in part of how many horses prove to test negative. If 70% test free of all 4 mutations--the 30% positive ones will drop in value in most cases--simply because there will be so many others to choose from. If 70% test positive, the 30% that test free will be so high priced that many will not afford them--and the gene pool would be so limited that people will surely keep buying and breeding carriers, trying to raise more foals that will test free of dwarfism...

If the bigger percentage proves to test free--I think most people will want to buy and breed those free ones. This will mean less demand and generally lower prices for the positive ones.

Time will tell--but overall I do think those that test positive will be less in demand.

What is better (or cheaper)--to test all breeding stock, which then means the foals from two negative parents do not need to be tested--or to leave the mares untested, and then test only the foals as they are put up for sale?

How many buyers will ask for test results on every horse they buy--before they buy? Will sellers generally do this testing or will buyers have to do it as a pre-purchase exam? If it is a pre-purchase exam, if the buyer gets a positive test and does not buy the horse--next potential buyer has to do his own test? Same horse could get tested 6 times without selling.


----------



## Tremor (Apr 22, 2014)

I think honestly, no matter what there will always be dwarfism because those who are going to drop the prices of their stock are going to be the ones that first time mini owners will buy up, because they're cheap.

I don't think that any amount of education will help because there will always be somebody breeding inferior stock.

However, that does not mean that we should not test because I know that there are people with that mindset. Those who test are going to be the ones who strive to breed the best and they're the ones who should be breeding.

There is no excuse, and especially not money. If you can't afford to test, then you can't afford to breed. This is a test that ought to be required.


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 22, 2014)

The fact that there are so many samples being submitted as soon as testing became available suggests to me that breeders may be treating this like the Lottery!. If they send in samples for all the stallions on their farm, then any that test free of all 4 dwarf genes are lottery winners! I suspect that most people will not advertise test results for horses that test positive for any of the genes. But having those results should help those breeders decide which crosses can be safely made without any chance of a dwarf. To me, that would be a good outcome. Do we know if UK is going to publish the overall test results periodically?

OK, now I will follow up on the question I posed above. As I understand from John's thesis - and I did write to him about his results - a high proportion of crosses, including D1 crossed with D1, D2. D3 or D4, result in early fetal death and not live dwarf foals. Having given this a lot of thought, I might be willing to chance a breeding involving a D1 carrier who was otherwise an outstanding specimen to another carrier if the worst result might be a slipped foal so early in the pregnancy it might never even be noticed. It would have to be an outstanding stallion or mare, and the point of this is that I am sure there ARE outstanding minis that will test positive for D1. They might include mares with poor foaling records, skipped years, hard to get in foal, you thought they took and they came back in heat, etc. Now I am not saying that would be the right decision for everyone, but everyone should be permitted to have the testing done and make what they feel is the right decision for them. Ideally, of course, I would want to breed a D1 carrier with a mini that was free of all 4 genes, but those might be hard to find. Oh, and I also think those slipped foals (early fetal deaths) are the reason that the estimates of carriers can be quite high while the number of actual dwarf births is nowhere near what might be expected from those estimates.


----------



## JMS Miniatures (May 5, 2014)

I am happy to announce that my mare Ozark Mtns Rare Penelope sired by Michigans Rare Penny and out of Horsefeathers Mel 'N Neeta tested negative for the full test panel!


----------



## Mona (May 5, 2014)

Would LOVE to see pics posted in the results posts!


----------



## Scottishlass (May 6, 2014)

JMS Miniatures said:


> I am happy to announce that my mare Ozark Mtns Rare Penelope sired by Michigans Rare Penny and out of Horsefeathers Mel 'N Neeta tested negative for the full test panel!


Truly awesome news!! Thanks for sharing. I am still waiting with baited breath on our results on our two stallions. I got an email that samples were received on 4/16 so soon.


----------



## Tremor (May 6, 2014)

So, so, so excited for those of you that have sent in samples!

And jealous. Hoping to send in my samples this fall, probably one by one.


----------



## Silver City Heritage Farmstead (May 6, 2014)

I'm also happy to see this, even if I don't have breeding animals at this time. Once I knew it was to be available, it changed my buying questions. I will be asking about test results, and a "none available" answer will result in a lot of "why's".

I expect that this will be like CA in Arabians. Some tested, posted results, and educated even if it hit their farm hard (Bazy Tankersley/Al-Marah are my idols for this!) Some tested, didn't share and dumped their carriers. Some didn't test, and unfortunately, some remained ignorant.

On a recent on-line auction, CA results were listed. Only one horse in the sale sold for less than $1750, there were no stallions offered. Those horses with negative results sold between $2000-$4500, depending on training level (all were under saddle.) The carriers sold from a low of $500-$2500. Broodmare with nice production record was the low seller--was her price affected more by the CA....or the fact that she was, by far, the oldest horse in the sale and wasn't under saddle? The other carriers were all under saddle, mares and geldings, and ONLY THE OLDER BROODMARE WITH NO TRAINING SOLD FOR LESS THAN $1750. (I'm writing this from memory, all errors are due to my own fault.)

The point to this? Marketing, education and training. Marketing and education go hand-in-hand. Many folks get interested by looking at the glossy print breed magazines. Some only look at the pictures/ads, and learn about inheritable faults in the content of those ads. Ads that share dwarf testing results will encourage buyers to question those sellers who don't list results. Education materials; I'd like to see at all shows, included in brochures and marketing materials that are sent from the registries, included in on-line content sponsored by the registries and by breeders, and member clubs holding meetings that cover just this topic. Encourage test results be included on registration certificates, and eventually (no more than 10 years) to be required for registry. In the absence of required DNA testing by the registry--even if both parents have no carrier results on file-- still require testing to register. Why?? Because it keeps the paper trail honest. *shrug*

Training, particularly in the last 10 years, is essential. This is true for the equine industry, not just miniatures. Flooded/depressed market means buyers want-and can get-more for their money. "But what can it do?" may be more common for us, however, I see it with all the breeds I have interests in. General observations....green at something seems to equate to about twice the sales price for unhandled animals. Solidly trained, or with modest show records, seem to sell for 3-5 times that base, unhandled animal price. There are exceptions, that's for another thread.

What to do with carriers? As many have said, that depends. And depends on many factors. How widespread is it? How does each strain affect the usability of the positive animal? Usability in this context is in relation to performance and general caretaking. For breeders, how does this affect their gene pool? If, as has been theorized, one registry will be more deeply affected than the other, it might require significant changes to be made. Again, more detail requires another thread.

As a buyer, IF I decide to buy an untested animal from a breeder, I may ask for a sales contract with a buy-back or refund clause. It's still early days for the test. By this time in 2016 though, I won't buy from untested stock. Why? A TRUE breeder, in my opinion, has the BEST INTERESTS OF THE BREED at the core of their program. Failing to test for inheritable faults is irresponsible. If necessary, test your stock in stages, stallions first since they "get around" more.

Testing positive for any one of these genes, for me with my breeders' heart, would take a tremendous amount of honesty and integrity to keep an animal in my breeding barn. Carrier + successful show/performance record + strong producing pedigree = breeding prospect. Non-carrier + successful show/performance record + strong producing pedigree = breeding prospect. Carrier/non-carrier - anything in the above formula = cull from BREEDING program. Keep for my own program, or sell to an educated buyer. If that buyer comes to me uneducated, I'll give them the resources they need.

Edited to add: Mary's (targets mom) post #51 above has, as it's root, breeder integrity as the basic question. And, in my opinion, Best Business Practices and TRUE breeder integrity don't often make comfy bed partners. So ask ourselves....are we BUSINESSMEN or BREEDERS????


----------



## Scottishlass (May 6, 2014)

Dragon's Wish Farm, I agree with most of what you stated and say AMEN.

The only thing I view differently is the "show". Take the horse (California Chrome) From unknown and poorly raced parents, from an unknown owner. Look at what that horse has been able to do. Then look at Secretariat, never produced a foal that had what he did. I feel showing is not so much about a certain line or farm. It is that owner with that horse and they get out of it what they put into it. That being said, breeding for correctness with no ACAN, good bite, no stifle issues and the list goes on. Along with mind is the most important. Correct horses that match the breed description don't have to come from top names. If you think about it, those big names keep the best and truly most of what they sell are their culls. IMO.

If breeders are looking to improve the breed, then why are they breeding?

Within that sentiment, farm A likes the halter looking conformation, while farm B wants a more athletic look for carting and performance. Neither is wrong.


----------



## JMS Miniatures (May 6, 2014)

Sorry about that here she is.


----------



## Silver City Heritage Farmstead (May 6, 2014)

Scottishlass--thank you for the comment, now I have the opportunity to clarify my views on the "show".

Within my own (on paper at this point) breeding program, the show/performance portion of the formula is this:

I love to compete on the open show circuit. Why, when so many rated-show pros "pooh pooh" it?! Because if my horses are competitive under all-breed judges, I'm not suffering from barn blindness when assessing my animals. FOR ME AND MY PROGRAM, performance is, and always will be the basis for my stock. Good, trainable, inquisitive minds that are inclined to partner up with their trainers are my goal.

On this forum, one that comes to mind as a good example of the positive in dwarves, is misty'smom and her filly Josey. A well-cared for example of the SPIRITUAL usefulness of a miniature horse. In spite of Josey's physical challenges, she seems to enrich every life she comes into contact with. Would you want a carrier, who had Josey's temperament WITHOUT the conformation issues, to be excluded from the gene pool? Individual breeders will need to decide that within their own programs.

In Arabs, I wouldn't consider a CA carrier as a breeding prospect (with one exception) as there are enough non-carrier options for my program. I use the same formula as in my previous post for Arabs. The exception would be if I were a niche breeder...is: preservation bloodlines, Straight Spanish or other line-breeding subsets of a recognized breed.

Unless, or until, I see my choices limited beyond my self-imposed ones I will maintain the same position in my miniature program.

I have a question as well. I understood that AMHA wouldn't issue registration papers if the enclosed photos showed dwarf characteristics. Is that correct? Combine this with AMHA's policy of requiring the return of registration papers for horse that go oversize, and I wonder at the changes I'll see coming soon.

Guess that means if I want my opinion to count, I'd better update my memberships!! LOL


----------



## appy2d (May 13, 2014)

I would love to see the registries open up hardshipping for a grade horse that tests N/N. Good for the breed as there are a lot of good quality minis out there that were just bred and let go without info or papers.


----------



## JMS Miniatures (May 13, 2014)

Until we know more of a percentage of those who test positive vs negative we can't do any rash changes. I personally feel that there should be enough negative carriers out there to not justify opening up both registries, BUT I could be wrong and could be more carriers then we realize. So far with the ones I have seen the results on its about 50-50 but a lot aren't posting results. But I personally think that the registries need to continue and support the breeders who have gone out and spend the money to test their horses vs letting unregistered horses back in. AMHA is closed, end of story. From what I heard they aren't even going to post the results on the horse's papers and I haven't even heard a statement from them about this test. Whereas with AMHR you can update the horse's papers for a small fee and they will put the results on the horse's papers.


----------



## ohmt (May 13, 2014)

I'm guessing the percentage of carriers will be much higher in AMHA. Buckeroo was a carrier, so anyone with Buckeroo in the pedigree, get your horses tested before breeding.

Even with people not wanting to share their results (at least not just yet, and that's ok), I think there are a lot that are testing, which is wonderful. Some are sharing and they're being so helpful. It gets more people to test if there is a shared bloodline and helps keep it from being a taboo subject when we talk about it and know how to use the results responsibly.

ETA: Not trying to throw Buckeroo under the bus. He was just a carrier and with the testing we can breed his bloodline responsibly. With his name being so prevalent in miniature horse pedigrees, and still close up, it's good to know who carriers were so we know to test


----------



## MiniNHF (May 14, 2014)

I am not looking to breed until the distant future and at this point I would just get the test out of curiosity. If my boy tested positive for any I wouldnt breed him, but that would not make me get rid of him over that, that is not my main point of having him. If he is a good solid show horse there is no reason to sell him in my eyes.


----------



## Scottishlass (May 16, 2014)

We got the results on our boys back.

HHH Little Champagne Gold Bullion

aka Cody (profile pic)

panel test N/N 

CN Champagne High

aka Gizmo

panel test N/N


----------



## horsehug (Jul 10, 2014)

Just thought I'd resurrect this topic now that it has been exactly three months (It was April 10, 2014) since the University of Kentucky started testing minis for recessive dwarfism mutations and see if many people have had their horses tested, or have any input they'd like to share at this point about this topic.

Susan O.


----------



## Silver City Heritage Farmstead (Jul 11, 2014)

I am interested in the results as well and check this thread frequently. Only results I've seen shared are the N/N.

Does anyone know where/how/if one could a breakdown of number of tests run and the results by group? I'm very curious to see what it looks like here in the early days.

Also, I neglected to follow up on my question re: AMHA and not accepting registration applications for animals that showed observable dwarf characteristics. Did I understand that correctly? Does AMHR have this as well? I'm *guessing* not, as going to not requiring photos to register would be too easy an out for unscrupulous people.

I've been checking the registry websites looking for informational links, downloadable brochures and the like. Either I'm not seeing it or it's not there...if someone knows where to find please post. I try to stay as current as possible on educational materials.

I got to talking to someone at work today who was quite surprised to find out the special needs of a dwarf mini. I referred her here to research what the seller was telling her compared to what I was telling her. When someone makes something you are excited about seem desireable, having a different person "rain on your parade" so to speak can be very disappointing. I hope she takes the time to become a little more informed before she buys a dwarf as her first experience with miniatures. Staying a "cute little micro mini" all it's life isn't all there is to owning one of these special minis!


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Jul 11, 2014)

I had someone--a vet assistant, no less, at an equine hospital--tell me she wanted one of those "pygmy horses". You can imagine my shock and disgust. I told her they were dwarves and had lots of health problems and were not desirable. Yes, I "rained on her parade".


----------



## horsehug (Nov 29, 2014)

It has been over 7 months since this test came out. I just thought I'd ask how many of you decided to take advantage of it and test your horses. I know I was so excited to have this tool and had waited for it for years and years. But after all these months it seems to me kind of like the stigma of dwarfism remains and very very few people are willing to talk about it, other than to share which of their horses are dwarf gene free (N/N).

I had my whole herd tested and had about a 61% dwarf gene non carriers (N/N) and 39 percent carriers (N/D2). I had some of my stallions who were carriers, gelded........and donated them to an up and coming miniature horses 4H club in a neighboring state. I even delivered them and it was sooo wonderful to see the kids' faces as they got their new little geldings. One little girl is even in a wheel chair and it just did my heart so much good to see how happy she was. I did keep one of my carrier stallions who I love so much and is very correct and I might still want to breed him to some of my non carrier mares as time goes by. I also sold two of my carrier mares, to people who plan to only breed them to non carrier stallions. I did keep 4 of my favorite carrier mares. So as of now, I have a herd I love very much and know about each one for sure genetically so as to avoid ever again producing a dwarf. I have 11 non carrier (N/N) mares/fillies, and 5 non carrier (N/N) stallions and colt, and only the one carrier stallion (N/D2) and the 4 carrier mares (N/D2).

It has been an interesting year, figuring all of this out and making decisions......... and I am soo grateful for the test so I can finally make SURE decisions.





Susan O.


----------



## Silver City Heritage Farmstead (Nov 29, 2014)

Thanks for the bump Susan.

I'd still like to know if there is an overview report of the results available. What I'm interested in is:

Number of samples submitted.

Number of N/N results.

Number of N/D1, 2, 3, 4 results.

Number of D/D results.

Would be even better if they were further broken down by sex. By registry would be too much to ask for at this point. LOL

Does anyone know if the test results will eventually be handled like CA is in Arabians? The results of all tested animals are posted and available to the public?

ETA: Oh, since I mentioned CA....it HAS been found in miniatures (as per the CA website)...concrete evidence of Arabian blood back there somewhere. ;-)


----------



## Margo_C-T (Nov 29, 2014)

Susan, I admire you!


----------



## horsehug (Nov 29, 2014)

Thanks Margo.

And Dragons Wish Farm, I think if you wrote to Dr. Graves who is head of the lab, she probably would answer some of your questions. Her email is on the Gluck site.

A few weeks ago they discontinued temporarily the D3 test because they had yet to have any of the samples submitted prove to carry that one, and they were running out of control DNA to test for it accurately. With it as rare as it is, people can have a pretty good chance that their horses are free of the ACAN dwarf gene now if they only test for the other three. And it also makes the full panel (three tests) less expensive than when it was all 4.

I did ask Dr. Graves a few month ago if they planned to ever share the percentage of carriers so that we'd have a better idea just how prevalent it is, and she replied. " We are collecting data and will hopefully have some idea of the frequency of these Dwarf alleles by the end of the year. " So I am hopeful they will share some info with us soon.

I have no idea about your Arabian questions. But if you write her, ask her all your questions.



She has been very nice and helpful with her answers the few times I had a question.

Susan O.


----------

