# What was I thinking?



## maplegum (Mar 15, 2011)

I have not hooked Bailey up to the cart for about 6 months. Prior to that, he was very green and so was I. Now I trust my Bailey to look after me as he is such a laid back little dude, nothing worries him. 

 

I got my gear out last night including his new v- shaped collar and hooked hime up. He stood there like a champ and only fussed when I did the girth up which he always does.

 

Off we go for a ride down the drive way and out into our street. It's a quiet country road and Bailey remembered the drill. I could feel he was rather 'frisky' but I was not suprised. He started to give a couple of small bucks so I stopped to check his harness was ok....and it was.

 

Back off down the road and I let him give a light a trott. Then he got really frisky and started bucking ..... lots! I was trying to calm him by talking him through it but he continued. Then my worse fears came true, he hooked his leg over the shaft! He was such a good boy though and came to a stop. He stood there perfectly as I attempted to unhook his little leg. I ended up flipping the cart onto its side just so I could unhook him. I was shaking like a leaf.

 

I am so cross at myself for rushing things. I should have gone back to basics and done the ground driving after such a long break with a green horse. He was super frisky and excited and I was too keen to get driving again. Poor Bailey could have really injured himself. My stupid enthusiasm could have injured both of us.

 

I feel so foolish. I know better, or at least I thought I did.


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## Katiean (Mar 15, 2011)

The point is you learned something from this. I bet you won't do that again.


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 15, 2011)

maplegum said:


> I have not hooked Bailey up to the cart for about 6 months. Prior to that, he was very green and so was I. Now I trust my Bailey to look after me as he is such a laid back little dude, nothing worries him.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


At this time of year the horses are fluffy and it is quite easy to get some hair pinched somewhere in the harness which can cause bucking sessions. Green horses and experienced ones that have been laid off for an extended period of time such as over the winter can get quite tender skin behind the elbows. If your girth is buckled too close to that loose skin behind the elbow it could be making him uncomfortable. Also if your cart pushes forward when going downhill with breeching that is too loose it can shove the girth into the soft spot. I would really give your harnessing and hitching a good going over before assuming that he is bucking out of freshness alone.


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## TMR (Mar 15, 2011)

The best investment I made was a bucking strap. These kind of things periodically happen either from something actually being wrong or just freshness. The bucking strap keeps it from getting out of control and doesn't allow the hind end to get high enough to get a hind leg over the shaft. It is more a preventative maintenance item. My gelding gets very excited on the cones course and periodically throws a little excited buck in and the bucking strap keeps him from getting himself in trouble. I always drive with it at home and at CDE's, well really anywhere except the AMHR show ring. You will see many ADS drivers with them as they see them as a safety feature.

Donna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2011)

Aw, Leonie. I'd wondered where you and Bailey were! Don't beat yourself up too much, my boys are like that after the least little layoff and I can work them on the ground for days and it doesn't matter- they're still excited when they get back in the cart because it means they can really GO! I will not drive Kody without a kicking strap for that reason when he hasn't been in regular work. It's just asking for trouble.



MiLo Minis said:


> > Back off down the road and I let him give a light a trott. Then he got really frisky and started bucking ..... lots! I was trying to calm him by talking him through it but he continued. Then my worse fears came true, he hooked his leg over the shaft! He was such a good boy though and came to a stop. He stood there perfectly as I attempted to unhook his little leg. I ended up flipping the cart onto its side just so I could unhook him. I was shaking like a leaf.
> > This is NOT typical of a "frisky" horse - there IS something wrong here. A frisky horse may give a little buck and want to GO but chances are that if he bucked high and hard enough to get a leg over the shaft he is really trying to tell you something!


Um, it's typical of MY frisky horse.




If Kody gets one good buck in without hitting the kicking strap he gets quite excited and goes higher and higher until he's well over the shafts! He gets a real kick (pun intended) out of bucking and it's a lot of hard work to get him to go forward as running is much less fun in his opinion. My mother's Arab was the same way- he'd much rather buck once he got started then run out his excitement.



MiLo Minis said:


> At this time of year the horses are fluffy and it is quite easy to get some hair pinched somewhere in the harness which can cause bucking sessions.


She's in Australia- it is fall there so hopefully he doesn't have too much hair. It's important to watch for that though, you're right.

Leia


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 15, 2011)

You know your horse. Bailey is not crazy and you kept your cool, too, and worked it out. What a scary situation!

The girth doesn't have to be snug with driving. Try putting it on looser at first, then right before you are ready to drive, take it up a notch.

Is your bitless bridle still working out for you?


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## maplegum (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks everyone. I didn't know that it was so common for horses to buck while driving. I feel a bit better now.

Just how 'tight' should the girth be? I know it doesn't need to be as tight as a riding saddle but still 'snug'? And the stupid overgirth keeps slipping off the top of the 'under girth' if you understand what I mean. How can I stop the overgirth slipping as I'm afraid it might pinch his skin.

Another problem I seem to have is that the shaft loops won't stay in place. Ummm, how do i explain it? Ok, instead of sitting out like a circle with the shaft through it, it actually twists and kind of lays flat. I must be messing something up I think.

His saddle has a pad under it to make it more comfortable but I find that it slips around if I don't do the girth up tight enough. I can't drag the saddle back too far as he has a fat gut...lol and it forces it forward.

As placid as Bailey is, he still gets frisky. I take him for walks on the trails around home a few times a week and even then he gets really excited and tosses his head and does a little buck in excitement. He is very 'playfull' even in the field with Willow. He bites her back legs and jumps on her to encourage her to run and play.

I have been looking online here in Australia for a kicking strap with no luck. Is this something I could make out of stuff I have at home or should I order one from overseas?

Yes Marsha, the bitless bridle is fantastic. He is very responsive and haven't had any issues using it. I'm really happy with it and don't plan on showing so will keep using it.


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## maplegum (Mar 16, 2011)

An update.

I made my own kicking strap and tried it out tonight. Bailey didn't even attempt to kick tonight so I'm not sure how well it works! In fact, he was terrific, perfect in every way. Guess he had to get it out of his system last night.

Anyway, I took some photos so you can see my set up not and let me know where I am going wrong.






This photo shows what I was trying to explain above about the shaft loops twisting.
















More pics coming....


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## maplegum (Mar 16, 2011)

.His v shaped chest plate. Is the strap underneath too loose? It won't go any tighter











You can see the kicking strap I made. is it in the right spot?
















Me and the boy yesterday before the 'bucking bronco' routine...


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## RhineStone (Mar 16, 2011)

maplegum said:


> Thanks everyone. I didn't know that it was so common for horses to buck while driving. I feel a bit better now.
> 
> I wouldn't say it was common, just that it can happen.
> 
> ...


For anyone reading....

Think about if a mini was a 16 hand warmblood bucking in the shafts because it was "frisky". That would be a complete disaster, as that horse could do A LOT of damage, and yet some mini people tolerate it and even think it is cute!



It is completely bad behavior and needs to be "checked". Yes, the horse may be communicating something to you, but basically my rule for driving is "If I didn't ask you to do X, then you are misbehaving" (for a "trained" horse, not a green one).

Myrna


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## CZP1 (Mar 16, 2011)

What Myrna said is true IMHO. All the things mentioned can be a factor. I would go back to ground driving to start and then hitch him up. He sounds like he is a litte "brat", (no offense mine is a MAJOR BRAT) my mini did the same thing when were started back driving. He had 4 months off after I had a spinal fusion. I long lined and ground drove him and he still had a little buck (evasion) coming but being I know him I pushed him "forward" with my voice and used the whip to correct the inapproprate behavior and we drive with a bucking strap. Do not rely on the bucking strap to stop the behavior, he should not be allowed to buck while hitched . Every horse is different and you will find that he may be a miniature that needs a steady routine before you "put him to cart". Good luck and keep us posted on your progress.


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## Sandee (Mar 16, 2011)

maplegum said:


> An update.
> 
> I made my own kicking strap and tried it out tonight. Bailey didn't even attempt to kick tonight so I'm not sure how well it works! In fact, he was terrific, perfect in every way. Guess he had to get it out of his system last night.
> 
> ...



Wow, I've never seen tugs (loops) that didn't snug up one way or another. Mine are more like a French tug (the loop is part of strap that tightens and fastens to the girth). The other kind I have is a loop but it comes with wrap straps (and I actually wrap the shafts so they can't move in the loop) "Wrap straps" come up from the bottom and are refastened back to the girth where they came from.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

Ditto Myrna on just about everything. Good job making your own kicking strap, that looks very professional! It could be a smidge further back (right over top of the hip strap in this case would be perfect) but it should work nicely. I can't tell how tight you have it but you want it loose enough to allow normal walk/trot/canter motion, maybe a hand's width of slack? Otherwise it can _cause_ the horse to buck.

Yes, your false martingale is a little loose but you can punch more holes and with Bailey's conformation and draft angle it isn't likely to be a big issue.



> As placid as Bailey is, he still gets frisky. I take him for walks on the trails around home a few times a week and even then he gets really excited and tosses his head and does a little buck in excitement. He is very 'playfull' even in the field with Willow. He bites her back legs and jumps on her to encourage her to run and play.
> I hate to break it to you, but this isn't being "playful", this is bad manners. When he is being led in hand, he needs to be "all business". This is why he is being a jerk in harness..... And it sounds like he is "studdy" and dominant, especially with Willow. You need to work on YOU being the herd boss. What would you do if he was 16 hands, and tossing his head and bucking in hand?


This is one place I do mildly disagree although I certainly see Myrna's point. Everyone does things differently- Myrna's horses know that when they are taken out it is to work and they'd better behave. Leonie and I take our horses out for hikes in-hand which have nothing to do with work but are more for the horse's enjoyment and I expect the same behavior from them I would for a child in the same circumstance. I.E., they are allowed to run or skip along beside me, range out to the end of the lead and have a good time as long as A) it is on my terms and B) they "come to heel" immediately when told and resume perfect leading manners. They are not given the privilege of having a good time with me until the ground rules are set and understood and if they do anything to endanger me (thoughtlessly bucking in my general direction, pushing me around, trying to drag me anywhere) they lose the privilege immediately and are severely reprimanded. They both KNOW the difference between "work time" and "play time" and respect the difference.

My memory of Bailey and Willow in the paddock is that Willow is his younger sister and he's always begging her to play, is that right? Has it changed and become dominant behavior now that she's mature or is he still just desperate to play? I don't think Bailey has a nasty bone in his body and would personally be doing just as Leonie is with him. On the other hand, I do agree with Myrna that bucking in harness is NOT acceptable and would be using a harsh voice, harsh hands and even the whip if necessary (carefully applied so as not to make things worse) to encourage him to give it up and go forward.



Sandee said:


> Wow, I've never seen tugs (loops) that didn't snug up one way or another. Mine are more like a French tug (the loop is part of strap that tightens and fastens to the girth). The other kind I have is a loop but it comes with wrap straps (and I actually wrap the shafts so they can't move in the loop) "Wrap straps" come up from the bottom and are refastened back to the girth where they came from.


That is an "open tug" and the shaft is supposed to float in the loop. It isn't always ideal with an EE and a small horse like that as in my experience with the higher singletree pulling down on the basket of the cart it can end up bouncing terribly in the tugs but with the proper arrangement it's very comfortable for both. The only problem with Leonie's tug is that it's designed in a fashion which is prone to twisting, as she's found. Usually the overgirth strap is attached separately to the bottom of the tug rather than running over the top from the tug billet because it solves that little problem.

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 16, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Um, it's typical of MY frisky horse.
> 
> 
> 
> If Kody gets one good buck in without hitting the kicking strap he gets quite excited and goes higher and higher until he's well over the shafts! He gets a real kick (pun intended) out of bucking and it's a lot of hard work to get him to go forward as running is much less fun in his opinion. My mother's Arab was the same way- he'd much rather buck once he got started then run out his excitement.Leia


If I have checked to be sure that there is no reason for my mature, experienced driving horse to buck then I would consider what Kody is doing simple BAD manners. He should know better than to buck in harness. One little buck out of sheer exuberance can be tolerated and, if you expect that your horse might do that, a kicking strap is a good precaution but I would not put up with a mature, experienced horse behaving in that manner and I would quickly teach him that it is not to be allowed or tolerated. Bucking is just too dangerous in the shafts as the original poster has found out, fortunately in not too serious a manner. It is a training issue for a mature horse.

In Maplegum's case with her horse not liking being harnessed I would suspect a harness problem. Not being hands on there it is hard to say what could be causing it. I have had something as simple as a too tight throatlatch cause a horse to be "fussy" about hitching, another it was the headstall pushing on his ears. I think it is something more than that here because of his more strenuous reaction when actually in the shafts. If the overgirth is rolling off the undergirth and pinching as you said that could be the problem.

From Maplegum's photos I would say that your tugs need to be raised a couple inches and that may help with the twisting tugs.


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## Helicopter (Mar 16, 2011)

Interesting!

Can someone tell me please how a bucking strap works? Just looking at the photo I have no idea how it would do what it's meant to do..


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 16, 2011)

I have had a couple of horses that bucked in harness, including Dusty my new one. After a couple of sharp smacks with the whip they stopped. Dusty does not buck anymore, but he would buck nearly every time in harness at first. He did it when I asked him to do something he didnt' want to do, such as drive away from the corral, or go in a circle when he preferred to go straight.

I think if he had not been checked by the whip, he might have gone into a full bronco performance--luckily I never found out. At this point in his training, if I left him for 6 months without driving, I would have to probably start over from scratch! There isn't a mean bone in his body and the behavior is just because he is juvenile and somewhat spoiled.

I enjoy reading about equipment adjustments, comments, and how the various parts of the harness work in a situation.

Love the closeup photos of the harness; they're worth a thousand words. It's amazing how many styles of miniature harness are available now than when I bought my first one only 9 years ago!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> If I have checked to be sure that there is no reason for my mature, experienced driving horse to buck then I would consider what Kody is doing simple BAD manners. *He should know better than to buck in harness. One little buck out of sheer exuberance can be tolerated and, if you expect that your horse might do that, a kicking strap is a good precaution but I would not put up with a mature, experienced horse behaving in that manner *and I would quickly teach him that it is not to be allowed or tolerated. Bucking is just too dangerous in the shafts as the original poster has found out, fortunately in not too serious a manner. It is a training issue for a mature horse.


Agreed. I said *IF* he gets one good buck- he does not as I spent long hours when he was younger training him that bucking was not acceptable in harness.



He knows better now! All I have to do is harden my contact, growl "AHHHT! Trot on!" and he scoots. I have some fairly spectacular photos however from our first year when nobody had told me about bucking straps and I was trying to break him of the habit.

Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

Helicopter said:


> Interesting!
> Can someone tell me please how a bucking strap works? Just looking at the photo I have no idea how it would do what it's meant to do..


It's literally a strap over the horse's rump that holds his hiney down when he goes to buck. He has to lift the entire weight of the cart and driver in order to get in a successful buck or kick and while he's trying the driver can be getting his head up.



Unlike a check, it does not affect him at all unless he actually tries to kick. And believe me, my horse at least is quite capable of kicking out with his head up!



(Think a Lipizzaner doing airs above the ground.)

Leia


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## maplegum (Mar 16, 2011)

Thanks for the feedback everyone. I appreciate it.

 

I hope I haven't painted a bad picture of my Bailey. 



 He really is such a good boy, a goof, but a good boy. 

 

He is really playfull compared to Willow. She is my 'lady' and won't been seen doing anything to ruin her 'lady' reputation. It's hard to imagine that Bailey and Willow share the same sire. Bailey just loves to play, he's a boy and still young I guess.

 

I can remove the saddle pad easily enough. It came with another harness that I have and I thought "oh that looks comfy, I'll put it on Bailey's harness". I'm not even sure how his saddle fits without the pad but I'll remove it tonight and give it a try. I'll get photos to show you guys then you can tell me if it's a well fitted saddle.

 

How can I hook the kicking strap back further? There really isn't anywhere to secure it to. 

 

 

I find that the cart is rather 'bouncy' at the trott. Is that normal? I distribute my weight so that the shafts are floating in the tugs but it is rather bouncy. Is there anyway to prevent this or is it just the cart and setup?

 

Now, with the issue of Bailey fussing with the girth. I suspect that it is because he really doesn't like his belly being messed with at all. I have a hard time brushing his belly, he HATES it. He stomps his foot, swishes his tail. He is not happy with me touching that area. I try really hard not to tighten the girth too quickly or too tightly to avoid freaking him out. other than that, I'm not sure why he fusses with the girth being secured.

 

I can't add any extra holes to the false martingale as there isn't option to do it - it is set on the tightest fitting already with no space for extra holes. It doesn't seem to effect the workings of it though. Just looks neater if it was tighter.

 

What do you do with the extra length of strapping that flaps around from the girth and overgirth? I have to find someway of securing those pieces. 

 

Do I have the v shaped collar sitting at the right height? I just want my boy to be comfortable. I really do love that collar and it looks so much nicer than the other one I had which always looked huge and sloppy on Bailey.

 

I'd love to work on getting Willow trained to cart too. I'm a little concerned with her though and she is a lot more flighty than Bailey. I'll get Bailey settled in harness 1st then turn my focus to ground work with her.

 

I need to work on turning with Bailey too. It's kind of hard out on the road to make turns, but not impossible. It just seems like its an effort for the little dude to turn. I'll get him into the back field where I can let him turn in larger circles - is that a good idea?

 

I really appreciate the feedback - just want to get this working right for both Bailey and I


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## susanne (Mar 16, 2011)

You really can't see clearly from this photo, but the open tugs and overgirth on Mingus' ugly harness are set up exactly like yours.






The tug does flop over like yours, but that in itself really isn't a problem; however, it does tend to pull the overgirth out of position, which could pinch skin/hair against the girth. Fortunately, as ugly as our harness is, it has some very nice features for comfort, including a very wide girth, so the overgirth is not pulled completely off.

Does your saddle have a loop on the skirt through which the overgirth can pass just above the tug? This helps keep tug and overgirth aligned properly.


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 16, 2011)

maplegum said:


> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I appreciate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Field-of-Dreams (Mar 16, 2011)

maplegum said:


> Thanks for the feedback everyone. I appreciate it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What we did was take a piece of that gray foam tube insulation you use for pipes and cut two pieces about 5" long off. Put them on your shafts where the tugs grip and use electrical or duct tape and tape them on. It fills the tug so your shafts don't bounce in them, but is soft enough to have some give. It even works on our show harnesses with the French tugs that don't want to close tight around the shaft.


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## RhineStone (Mar 16, 2011)

The shafts "floating" in the tugs is a bit of a misnomer. There should be a few pounds of weight in each tug. Trust me, they can take it. Think of a saddle horse. It is less annoying for the horse to carry a bit of weight than to have the shafts bouncing up and down and bumping them in the belly.

You may also have to adjust the tugs up or down to try to correct it.

Myrna


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## Sue_C. (Mar 16, 2011)

I agree with Myrna...I do not tolerate bucking under harness...if my horses are frisky, they can act so when loose in the pasture...they KNOW when it is work time and when it is not. I too use a bucking strap with my green horses until I am confident that we aren't going to go for a not so jolly drive.

One thing I did notice was that you run your traces straight over the breaching straps to the hook. They should go through the "loop" in the breaching, that helps keep them from flopping around and getting caught in things.


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