# Breeching



## Mominis (May 1, 2010)

I have driven several horses, mainly ASB's and Morgans, in workouts and in the show ring. Never have I used or seen anyone use breeching on the harness in those breeds. However, I see it used quite a bit in the mini world. I don't intend to do much, if any at all, out of the ring driving with Shake. First, there is no where to do that at the barn that I stable in and second, it's just not my thing. I don't like to have any more tack on the horse than I need to have. Is there a reason that I'm not seeing that I should use breeching on Shake's work harness?

Thanks.


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## disneyhorse (May 1, 2010)

If you are driving on level ground, then nope, you don't need it. I don't have breeching on my harness.

Andrea


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## targetsmom (May 1, 2010)

I have breeching on my harnesses for American Driving Society events (where it is required), training on hills (where it provides the brakes for the cart on the downhills) and when I enter driving obstacle classes because I think it makes backing easier. Then I remove it for the regular driving classes.


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## Mominis (May 2, 2010)

Thanks for that guys. I think that, after I get him going, we may spend a little time this winter learning how to wear it just in case. But, I think I'll skip it for starting him and getting him reliable in just his regular working harness. I appreciate that input.


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## Coventry Lane Farm (May 2, 2010)

We don't have or use breaching on any of our harness.


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## Katiean (May 3, 2010)

Unless you are driving in an arena or say a level race track I would use a breaching unless you want the cart to creep up your horses butt. We did not use breaching with the race horses because there were tug stops on the shafts. I like the way the jog carts just clip to the shafts now. Quite handy I must say. But also a race horse has the harness saddle a bit tighter than we drive with our harnesses for pleasure.


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## Mominis (May 3, 2010)

Thanks Katiean. We plan to do strictly arena driving with him this year, so I'm going to go without until I get him nice and comfortable with the process. Then, this winter, I will take some time to get him used to breching so we can go out and condition in the cart next spring.


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## RhineStone (May 3, 2010)

I know I am probably going to be the "rare exception" here, but I disagree that miniatures do not need breeching, even on level ground.

The mini show harnesses are designed exactly from the Arab & Saddlebred breed show ring. The weight ratio of a big horse pulling and stopping a Jerald and the like type cart or Viceroy with an average size driver is MUCH bigger than a mini with the same set up! I STILL think that we are doing our minis a disservice making them stop the same configuration as the big horses without the same weight ratio!




Oh, yes, we aren't "killing" our horses, but is it fair to them?

Harness racing vehicles/turnouts also have a very high weight ratio compared to the horse, since they don't weigh very much at all. And when was the last time you saw a "fluffy" race driver?

BTW, breeching is not "required" for ADS events. However, ADS drivers know that is the best, most comfortable way for the horse to slow and stop the vehicle. Actually, there are some turnouts where breeching is not traditional for the vehicle, in which most of those cases use French tugs and tug stops. Again, those tend to be less heavy vehicles designed for much larger horses.

Breeching IS compulsory for CDEs if the vehicle has no brakes (mechanical) (Art 918 1.3) Even that being said, mechanical brakes fail and having a secondary source of braking is good.

We used to show without breeching, including at ADS shows, and placed well. However, we now _know_ better, so we _do_ better.



Styles and trends are not worth the discomfort for our horses, especially considering the weight ratios for minis.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 3, 2010)

Breeching is always such an interesting issue.



I'm a great fan of it and use it almost all the time but then again I do a tremendous amount of trail driving and cross-country work where it would be nearly suicidal to go without it. It is standard equipment on a carriage driving style harness just as a check is standard on a fine-harness style turnout.

I think what's important to remember is the reasoning behind any given piece of equipment and to evaluate whether that reasoning applies in your individual situation. It is my opinion (and my opinion only) that fine harness with a miniature is a different deal than fine harness with a Saddlebred. Saddlebreds and Morgans and such may be 16h and hauling this little tiny jog cart behind them, something which weighs maybe 1/5th of what the horse does. The shafts are strongly downhill to the cart and the shafts are usually snugged tightly to the saddle with French tugs or wrap straps and often thimbles on the front. The weight of the cart is well over the wheels and the slope of the shafts gives the horse pretty good control of the vehicle for stopping and turning. Backing is not that hard because the cart is light compared to the horse and the wheels are usually large enough to stay on top of deep arena footing.

For a miniature, especially an A-sized one, none of those things are the case. You've got a horse who weighs maybe 200lbs (give or take 50lbs) hauling a cart which weighs 80lbs or so plus a 150lb person. The shafts are at best only slightly uphill so a lot of that weight is often on the horse's back and with the shafts tied down tightly, there is a load thumping up and down on the spine and the horse does not have a good ergonomic way to brake or turn the cart. When stopped in a lineup those tiny 20" wheels sink right into a soft surface and then you've got this little tiny horse trying to shove something straight back using only his withers- not a comfortable situation! I'm not saying they don't do it and do it just fine, but in my mind it is not the same situation at all as that of a fine harness Saddlebred or Morgan. There are totally different numbers in the equation.

So, that said, what variables can modify that equation? Well, having a bigger horse for one. A B-mini or Shetland comes closer to the ergonomic setup of a full-sized horse and will have less problem. More muscle, more height, more weight in comparison to his load...you get the idea. The single biggest difference I've seen between a panicky, unhappy horse without breeching and a calm, perfectly contented horse without breeching is the way the harness is adjusted. Too many times I've watched beginners hitch up a horse with no breeching and a tight overcheck to an easy entry cart and proceed to drive around the ring with the cart rolling up almost to the horse's hocks each time they stop. This of course loosens the traces to a dangerous level (the horse could easily get a hind leg over them) and then when the horse walks on he's a stride or more into it before he suddenly hits the traces. He wants to stop, the cart starts to roll up on him, the person smacks the lines on his butt and he jumps forward, hitting the traces again and causing the cart to roll forward again....Oy. These horses always look terribly stressed and I can't think that's a comfortable way to drive. However I've seen other people with the same cart and harness setup who have things adjusted so that the cart stays safely back, the traces stay safely snug, and the horse can round up into that check (or better yet the driver's hand) and their horses do just fine and are perfectly happy.

For the first person breeching would be my solution to keep horse and driver safe as the driver learns how to ask for soft transitions and how to correctly adjust the rest of their harness. For the second person, well, if they prefer to use fewer straps then I guess I don't really have a problem with that.





If you are going to drive without breeching (and this is a general statement for all readers, not you specifically Mimi,) then PLEASE be prepared to put shaft stops on your vehicle! Even the tightest of wrap straps can slip and without a physical projection on the shaft to prevent it from slipping through the tug loop you are endangering your horse and yourself. Having the cart roll up and hit a panicked horse's hocks each time he tries to obey and stop is the kind of accident many driving horses never recover from. IT ISN'T WORTH IT. Nothing is worth it when a cheap piece of hardware could completely prevent the problem.

My final thought on the subject of using breeching for ring driving is to respectfully suggest you include the breeching in the initial training rather than adding it later. It is very easy to take the breeching off and continue to drive the horse with no further lessons, but a horse who has been driven without breeching may object rather violently the first time he feels something pressing on his rump. Margo C-T shared a story a few years ago about an experienced show mini that went trail driving with breeching for the first time and the resulting wreck was not pretty. It is better, in my mind, to introduce the breeching with all the other new things at the start so the horse accepts it as simply part of the deal.

Leia

P.S.- If you haven't considered using a bucking strap on your green driving horse, do a search on the forum for "kicking strap" and read up on it. It's a great safety device and can be used with or without breeching.


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## RhineStone (May 3, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> It is my opinion (and my opinion only) that fine harness with a miniature is a different deal than fine harness with a Saddlebred. *Saddlebreds and Morgans* and such may be 16h and hauling this little tiny jog cart behind them, something which *weighs maybe 1/5th of what the horse does*. The shafts are strongly downhill to the cart and the shafts are usually snugged tightly to the saddle with French tugs or wrap straps and often thimbles on the front. The *weight of the cart is well over the wheels* and the slope of the shafts gives the horse pretty good control of the vehicle for stopping and turning. *Backing is not that hard because the cart is light compared to the horse and the wheels are usually large enough to stay on top of deep arena footing*.
> 
> For a *miniature*, especially an A-sized one, none of those things are the case. You've got a horse who weighs maybe 200lbs (give or take 50lbs) hauling a cart which weighs 80lbs or so plus a 150lb person. The shafts are at best only slightly uphill so a *lot of that weight is often on the horse's back and with the shafts tied down tightly, there is a load thumping up and down on the spine and the horse does not have a good ergonomic way to brake or turn the cart*. When stopped in a lineup those tiny 20" wheels sink right into a soft surface and then you've got *this little tiny horse trying to shove something straight back using only his withers- not a comfortable situation!* I'm not saying they don't do it and do it just fine, but in my mind it is not the same situation at all as that of a fine harness Saddlebred or Morgan. There are totally different numbers in the equation.


All the more reason NOT to take away the horse's most comfortable form of braking. It may not be exactly the same situation, but you list a bunch more reasons why Arabs and Saddlebreds have MORE advantages with the fine harness turnout than minis do.

Myrna (who's purpose is not to make enemies, but to help people consider other ideas and methods, and their horse's comfort.)


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 3, 2010)

You posted your reply while I was still writing mine Myrna but I thought we essentially said the same thing.





The fact is fine harness is driven without breeching, and while _educating_ is always appropriate, trying to tell someone they are wrong or ignorant for driving in a different style is not. No more than I appreciate being told I need to use a check to set my horse's head when I am driving carriage style! She asked for the factors to consider in making her own decision and we gave them; as long as the harness is adjusted correctly and the cart both balanced and safe, Shake will be perfectly happy being a fine harness horse with all that entails. I still prefer to use breeching but for the type of work I do (even in an arena) that is more appropriate. For a Park-type mover as Shake is, it may not be.

We've had our say!



As long as the horse is happy, that's all that matters. And I've seen, and driven, happy horses without breeching.

Leia


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## Mominis (May 3, 2010)

You guys have made some very good points. I really appreciate learning from the pros!



I'm putting the cart before the horse, in this sense quite literally. Shake will start wearing his bridle, crupper, and surcingle this month so I have plenty of time to make decisions about the work harness. I just like to plan ahead. Now I feel like I can make an informed decision about the tack that I choose to use on Shake.

btw, Leia, there is a kicking strap in Shake's future. You can count on that. The little nipper is a bit quick with his heels anyway, no sense in being unprepared. Leia knows the story here...I'm not saying Shake is a kicker in any sense of the word. His manners are wonderful. But, when he is put under tension, kicking does cross his mind. Just thought I'd add that so no one thinks I mean that the horse is ill tempered in any sense of the word. He is a total cuddlebug.


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## RhineStone (May 3, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> You posted your reply while I was still writing mine Myrna but I thought we essentially said the same thing.


That might be why I couldn't figure out if you were agreeing or disagreeing with me!



It seemed like you were making the same points, but then the wording didn't seem to make sense. I just figured out you were responding to the initial post.





Yes, fine harness has been shown without breeching in the big horse breeds for umpteen decades if not over a hundred years, while minis have not. I really think that the mini breeders/trainers/exhibitors who created the rules made the decision to emulate without _really_ considering the horse. They just wanted to be like the _big guys_. Therefore, as unpopular of an opinion as it is, I will keep on my soapbox to help people understand. Maybe someday, breeching in the show ring won't be considered "uncool".

Myrna (who had an older ex-breed show horse who refused to rein back one day because the show harness saddle was biting her in the spine when the thimbles engaged. Put breeching on...horse backed great!)


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 3, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Myrna (who had an older ex-breed show horse who refused to rein back one day because the show harness saddle was biting her in the spine when the thimbles engaged. Put breeching on...horse backed great!)


Me too Myrna, me too. On the other hand this same horse LOVED going breeching-less on the beach and did just fine. It all depends on the setup and the usage.

Leia


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## Mominis (May 6, 2010)

Well, I've decided to reverse my opinion. Yesterday, I took the cart out, put my husband in it and pulled him around the arena. Everyone at the barn got a good laugh, but I found it to be quite well balanced and light in my hands. I then took him trotting down the rail (no pictures, so forget about it--LOL) and stopped short. The cart was difficult for me to stop short in so I've decided, for Shake's safety and for mine, to go ahead and start him with breeching. Thanks again for all of your help.


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## Sue_C. (May 6, 2010)

I think you have absolutely made the right decision.











Perhaps MORE people should try this; especially with their heads all checked back tightly at the same time.


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## RhineStone (May 6, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> I think you have absolutely made the right decision.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## RhineStone (May 6, 2010)

Mominis said:


> Well, I've decided to reverse my opinion. Yesterday, I took the cart out, put my husband in it and pulled him around the arena. *Everyone at the barn got a good laugh*, but I found it to be quite well balanced and light in my hands. I then took him trotting down the rail (no pictures, so forget about it--LOL) and stopped short. The cart was difficult for me to stop short in so I've decided, for Shake's safety and for mine, to go ahead and start him with breeching. Thanks again for all of your help.


Don't laugh, this isn't far off! It is a good learning experience to "drive" your cart yourself once in a while. You can learn all sorts of things about balance and maneuvering.

Now if you REALLY want a good learning experience, get blindfolded and then have your husband drive you with his voice, especially commands that you give the horse! Or, ditch the cart, get a rope and hold onto the rope at your hips while someone else "drives" you by the ends of the rope. This is a GREAT exercise in communication through reins and voice. We call it, "Blind Horse Driving". We used to do that at our mini club fun show in an obstacle course. While everybody else used "human terms" for signals, my husband and I used our horse terms (ho, hep, stand, come, get, trot, etc.) We won! It really helps you understand how "slack reins" are very confusing to a driving horse! They don't have any direction.

Myrna


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## Sue_C. (May 6, 2010)

> get blindfolded and then have your husband drive you with his voice, especially commands that you give the horse!


HAHAHA!! We did that at a fun show once. It was the last class of the day, and was called "Spectator Obstacle Driving". We had the person in the shafts (spectator/friend) blindfolded, and the driver had to direct the "horse" though a simple obstacle course with voice only. O-M-Gosh!

What a HOOT!!!


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## REO (May 6, 2010)

Oh Myrna! You can't tell us about that and then not post it!





Please, oh please do share!


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## Mominis (May 6, 2010)

At a show in Europe that I went to, the showjumpers all did this with carts, blindfolded, with the grooms in the cart. It was GREAT! The objective was that they had to guide the "horse" through the standards, the "horses" were blindfolded, and I think some of the grooms put them wrong on purpose. It was a RIOT!!!


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## michele80906 (May 6, 2010)

Leia, I enjoy reading your posts. Couple of questions for you...I guess I should have posted them to this breeching topic...I have read several ways people adjust their breeching like fastening the traces first and pushing the cart back until the traces have no slack in them and setting your breeching to keep the cart there with one hand inbetween the horses body and the breeching. When they say hand, do they mean the flat of the hand or the hand standing on edge? I know where the breeching goes...someone commented almost in a straight line with the stifle, right below the highest part of the muscle..not too high, not too low. Also, I am going to test drive a mare that is older and very expericenced, very broke to the cart and she goes down the roads just beautifully...just what I need. She has been on trail rides and down roads, parades, etc, but it must have been pretty flat as she has never had breeching on. If I purchase her, would you suggest me ground driving her and lunging her with the breeching on then going to the cart? I think the lady just put it on the mare and she didn't react but I have no idea how tight she set it...I sent her a website and some instructions. I live where there is a lot of hills...pretty steep at times and breeching is a must for me. Also a kick strap...I learned that lesson. The mare has never had a kick strap on and never had any bucking and kicking but after what happened to me, I just don't think I will drive without one...you just never know and it's cheap insurance...and if it is on them correctly they move freely and don't really know it's there. Thank you in advance. Michele

Breeching is always such an interesting issue.



I'm a great fan of it and use it almost all the time but then again I do a tremendous amount of trail driving and cross-country work where it would be nearly suicidal to go without it. It is standard equipment on a carriage driving style harness just as a check is standard on a fine-harness style turnout.

For the first person breeching would be my solution to keep horse and driver safe as the driver learns how to ask for soft transitions and how to correctly adjust the rest of their harness. For the second person, well, if they prefer to use fewer straps then I guess I don't really have a problem with that.





.

My final thought on the subject of using breeching for ring driving is to respectfully suggest you include the breeching in the initial training rather than adding it later. It is very easy to take the breeching off and continue to drive the horse with no further lessons, but a horse who has been driven without breeching may object rather violently the first time he feels something pressing on his rump. Margo C-T shared a story a few years ago about an experienced show mini that went trail driving with breeching for the first time and the resulting wreck was not pretty. It is better, in my mind, to introduce the breeching with all the other new things at the start so the horse accepts it as simply part of the deal.

Leia

P.S.- If you haven't considered using a bucking strap on your green driving horse, do a search on the forum for "kicking strap" and read up on it. It's a great safety device and can be used with or without breeching.


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