# opinions from those who drive pairs/teams



## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 13, 2013)

I make no claims to experience with driving a pair and altho my local draft guys are telling me its fine I'm hoping for input on the configuration of the new pole on our waggon (buckboard type). We had the pole redone and it came back without a (forgive me here, still on a learning curve with the terms for team equipment) bar across at the front. There are rings on either side of the pole that we are meant to fasten straps to to hang the pole from the breast collars. Will this work? Will it pull the collars to the side? I'm told that they are only supporting the pole, there is no pressure there so it is just fine but wanted to see what others who have hitched more than a single think.


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## Al B (May 13, 2013)

If the pole is suspended (held up by what ever means, spring, torsion, shock, etc.) thats correct. If not you will need neck yolk.


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## paintponylvr (May 13, 2013)

Sounds like it's similar to the set up for marathon harness/vehicles. The part on a tongue across the front is called a neck yoke by Draft folk. Not sure if that is what it would be called by CDE terms.

I've not seen any problems as long as you are using the heavy duty breast collars meant to be hitched that way. I've not dealt with it myself, but will go thru my pics and see if I have a close up of one... Of course I don't... I will have to go thru my pics later on other computer.

Part way down the page shows a drawn figure of the way they are harnessed. http://carriageassociation.wordpress.com/category/reference/harness/page/3/

Looks like this one is attached with short chains and snaps? http://picasaweb.google.com/ponyandcarriage/ZilcoHarnessZGBClassicTedex?feat=directlink#5671180739236532818 You could contact Zilco to find out? Also, go thru their other pics in the link above as there are a lot!


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## paintponylvr (May 13, 2013)

Can we see pics of your buggy and your team???

I love looking at pairs!

There is also a website called driving pairs - it's a forum type. You could see if anyone has any close up pics there...


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 13, 2013)

paintponylvr, thanks for the pictures! yes, exactly like the pair shown when you open the link for Zilco that you posted. AlB, the pole is not suspended, that is it is not supported by other than the collars of the horses. I wonder if I can alter that by adding a good spring there (somewhere... have to look at the configuration to see if there is even a spot for one) that keeps it from putting to much weight on the horses' necks. The collars are good heavy weight collars (much like the Zilco ones but not from that maker) but the horses are pretty small, 30" geldings altho they are built well and not too refined. The problem of course is the advice I am getting is from draft horse people who don't take the minis too seriously, great guys but seem to think the details aren't as important with minis. Of course its true that they are not being asked to move any heavy loads, just a couple of adults and a child now and again but still, things have been done a certain way for a long time for a reason. We want them comfortable and safe.

paintponylvr, I promise you I will get pictures for you but we have the waggon apart at the moment for reupholstering so I can't take any yet. I'll see if I can find a picture of the geldings so you can see them at least lol Ok so all I could find was this one of them the first time I ground drove them as a team. We no longer have the harness they were wearing there because I was never happy with the way the collar fit on the smaller built boy. I tried several different collars and it just never seemed right so gave up on the full collar all together (at least for now) some day I would love to do them up like belgian drafts, tail bun, rosettes etc. lol. Of course that assumes we get them working properly together (my horse project this year.) Technically these are my husbands horses and he was the on who wanted to drive a pair while I was happy with one but he never seems to have the time to finish them so I've decided to take over. Problem is I'm less than well educated about teams(pairs) so I need to learn fast and take them along slow.  they both drive single fine and are very attached to one another are almost always together and we tend to lead them as a unit rather than 2 horses so they shouldn't make things too hard for me. Its the fine tuning I'll be struggling with. Hopefully lots of hours in harness will get them where they need to be. There won't be any CDEs in their future, they are just too small to be competitive there. They will be for trail drives and general pleasure outings.

Thank you both for the correct term, nothing in the world can make you feel less intelligent (and make things harder to explain) than the lack of the correct terminology.


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## Al B (May 13, 2013)

And the terminology is different for draft, light, America, Europe, etc. etc. etc.

Don't be afraid to say the thingy that hooks to the whatchamacallit.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 13, 2013)

Al B said:


> And the terminology is different for draft, light, America, Europe, etc. etc. etc.
> 
> Don't be afraid to say the thingy that hooks to the whatchamacallit.


LOL, well, sometimes clarity saves time but the other is much much easier to remember  Of course you are right that each discipline is likely to have a different name for each piece and then you still have trouble being understood sometimes ... oh my... there may be no help for me at all..


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## TMR (May 13, 2013)

Al, did you use neck yokes on your Glinkowski with your pair?


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## kellyk (May 13, 2013)

Awesome pair, how tall are they? I love the little guys, here is a link to mine, they are 30" and 31 1/2" black mares, I just took them to an AMHR show a week ago and they did fine. Anyway, you can go to Kurck Ranch Arena facebook page and see them, and some of our others. I know what you mean about the terms for things, that's how I tell my husband what I need, one of those things that goes here? and hooks over there............you know! He can normally figure it out.

Kelly


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## Al B (May 13, 2013)

TMR said:


> Al, did you use neck yokes on your Glinkowski with your pair?


The Glinkowski and the Tadpole both have suspended poles, so no. The Glinkowski also has a bracket (where the Crabb Hook would be) to attach the Leader Bars for the leaders in my 4.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 13, 2013)

Thank you kellyk, Red and Zeke are full brothers, 30.25" and many people have trouble telling them apart (its not that hard really, Red is lighter and more flaxen while Zeke has black hair mixed in his tail and is redder than Red) They are of course not always so wooly, that picture was taken in early spring and if you look in the background you can still see patches of snow.

I am disappointed there was no link



to your girls since I can't go to facebook to see them. Any chance you might attach a link after all?


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## TMR (May 14, 2013)

The pole is not suspended on mine. Once I attach it with the pin there is nothing to hold it up...or am I missing something? I use is mainly driving a single small pony to it than a pair. However, I do have his match coming up and hope to pair them up next year.


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## paintponylvr (May 14, 2013)

The pole on our farm wagon isn't suspended either and when I took some lessons from an instructor/trainer/competitor in CDE - she was horrified.

We spent a good hour with her giving me ideas on how to "fix" all the "problems" with my wagon - including shortening the tongue (I just bought a mini tongue and will see how it works - at least with the smaller ponies); and how we might be able to get a welder to weld on some type of contraption that would support the tongue...

In the end, for the purpose it is actually used for, the wagon works wonders!!

*****

Your boys are really cute! UMMM... mine are 10 - 13" taller than yours! At least the ones I'm currently driving are. I do have some smaller ones coming up, but it will be quite some time before they are ready to drive as a pair (or more) and then they are still larger than yours are...

I understand about collar fit! Unless you want to do custom fitted collars (can be pricey), it is hard to get a good fit. This is part of the reason that "the big guys" use collar pads - it affects the fit. Different collar companies can use different patterns for the same type of collar - though most seem to be standardized (but understand I haven't been doing this long!)... Mostly I've seen the 310 buggy collar for minis & shetlands. Though I just bought a different kind and we'll see if I like it when I put my hames/harness on it. Every time I go to my "chosen" harness shop, I learn something new! The new one this past weekend - the collars state a size, such as 11, which is the number of inches measured on the inside from the top to the bottom of the collar. It may be called a size 11 - but it *can be *11 1/4, 11 1/2, 11 3/4. As long as it's not 10 3/4" or 12" - the collar is called a size 11. That 3/4" can make a HUGE difference in how the collar fits the horses shoulders and how/where it holds the hames. The harness shop I use, resells or markets collars from the Coblentz Collar Company - who just happens to be right down the road... Some other companies that market Coblentz collars, really mark them up...

I believe that some of the other Mini drivers that do Draft driving use collars/harness from other builders/makers in the mid-west. I don't know who and don't know if they are willing to say. I remember being really tired and a bit bleary plus turned out it was just hours before I came down very sick at Nationals 2012 - but it seemed like I was being told ".... I can get you what you need..." rather than being given the source/manufacturer... Others I have spoken with either didn't know who made their collars or couldn't remember.

Also understand, with draft horses - the owners, trainers I've spoken with state - that a horse will often be heavier (winter fat, pasture shape, out of condition) at the beginning of the season (spring). As they work, they loose the fat, muscle up and become fit. This changes the collar size, too. They often have more than one type of collar along with a couple of different sizes and then also used padding to help with fit as they changed shape.

I tell you what - we never had so many issues fitting our riding horses with saddles and saddle pads!!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 15, 2013)

Yes, these 2 are pretty short lol. I actually prefer the taller horses mostly (my favourites are both 34") but the little ones can sure be a lot of fun. As far a collars go; I used a collar when I started my 1/2 arab in harness many years ago because that was the only harness I had available at the time. It too required padding to fit it but then I didn't have enough knowledge to recognize that collar fit was so important to their comfort. I often look back and think how forgiving that horse was, he just went along with whatever new thing I wanted to try without fuss even tho he was young (and arab lol) Made mistakes with him I didn't even know I was making because I knew so little.For these 2 tho, I do have a couple of collars here still that appear to fit and some day I may try again to go with collar and hames but for now we'll stick with what doesn't need so much attention to fit. I don't think we'll have to worry too much about them needing different sizes of collars when "... they loose the fat, muscle up and become fit." I have my doubts that they will get used enough to change their fitness level much lol, I have 4 others to drive so these are my husbands pair and he just doesn't drive often and when he does lately he has preferred my reliable, been there, done that mare and driving a single. Which is fine, whatever gets him in the drivers seat IMO is a good thing.

I'm still not sure if this new pole configuration will work. I understand that without something else supporting the pole at the waggon end its weight will be held by the collars, I'm just not sure if the pole weight will be enough to cause them any concerns or if we can get away with this even if it is not ideal. I might be able to suspend the pole from the wagon with a heavy spring to keep the weight of them but don't know if that will do the trick (or is even possible)


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 26, 2013)

If the pole is not suspended, you need a neck yoke. Otherwise the pull on their collars will cause them to constantly lean away from the pole and should they move closer together, the pole will drop and cause them further problems. (This is why with a pair put to a two-wheeled vehicle you MUST have a yoke! Otherwise the pole can drop, get stuck in the ground and cause a pole vaulting incident that would not be fun at all.) Pole straps are only appropriate with stiff or suspended poles.

Leia


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 27, 2013)

Thank you Leia. Your explanation helps a great deal. Al B, said much the same but didn't explain the consequences of not having a yoke without a suspended pole. Now I just have to figure out if I can suspend the pole ot not. I suspect it will be less work to modify this new pole to accept a yoke and go that route. I do wish the guy who made this new pole for us (the wagon came with one made from green wood and it was badly warped) had understood the importance of a yoke in this situation (or perhaps he thought it didn't matter because they are just minis



) Regardless, I'm glad I asked here and thank you all for sharing your knowledge with me.


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