# Tail Tying and Roans



## MajorClementine (Jul 27, 2017)

Okay guys, I need your help. I have to different possible teammate options for Clementine. One is a 9 year old brown and white mini very close to her in size. The only problem with this horse is that it twitches it's tail when it drives so you have to tie the tail to the breeching. Does anyone have experience with this?? The price on this horse is around $1,100.

The other is a 2 year old Blue Roan mini who is currently 4" shorter than Clem. He's a strong puller, wide chested, lots of heart, and strong. Clem is finer built so they would be an odd team in color and build. The up-side to him is that he has no vices and seems to be a better horse at 2 than some horses are at 6. However his price, being a blue roan, is higher. He's around $1,600.

Any thoughts???


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## jventresca (Jul 27, 2017)

When someone says "You HAVE to do this" it just makes me want to try without doing it. What happens when the horse's tail isn't tied to the breeching (and how does he poop if it is tied)? Have you driven this horse? Maybe this horse is twitching because he's unhappy about something. Maybe he's being a really good boy and NOT kicking! Maybe tying his tail works like a bucking strap with him!

A 2 year old already in serious work? Do you think he'll get close to Clem's height in a few years?

Yes, you can drive animals that aren't similar in body type but for your first pair it's much easier if they're close. I tried to drive two horses within an inch of height but their body lengths were different. I kept having to push the short coupled horse up into the collar. They never worked well together. When I've put two horses of similar body type and size together they tend to make their strides match without a lot of tweaking from me. In my opinion I'd wait for a better match unless the brown and white pinto drives well for you.

My humble opinion - DON'T BUY WITHOUT DRIVING FIRST!


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## MajorClementine (Jul 27, 2017)

Tying the tail just means that you braid the end of the tail and secure it to one side via the breeching so it can't flick the tail up and around the reins. It does not inhibit the movement of the tail in any way. They can still easily lift their tail to poop. It is just a safety measure. It is also sometimes done on driving horses with tails long enough to drag the ground or get caught in wheels. It's not something that I personally have had to do with my driving horses but I have seen it done. I was mostly wondering if anyone else here had a horse that they did this with.

Thank you for your comment about horses with a similar build matching stride better. I hadn't thought of that specifically and it makes sense.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 27, 2017)

I think matching would be better. I've never had two horses at the same time that moved well together. I would think that would be critical for a team. I always thought tail twitching was a sign of unease or nervousness Doesn't sound promising. But not sure I would take a chance on a youngster without knowing how he'll mature.

You are certainly having some interesting horse experiences!


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## MajorClementine (Jul 28, 2017)

I've found a third possibility a little closer to home. About an hour away actually. A 7 yo mare (same age as Clem), 38" tall (same height), and a leggy build (same as Clem too). About the only difference is the color. This is an appaloosa and Clem is a bay.

They say she drives but they have only ground driven her because she was pregnant and foaled 3 months ago so they hadn't gotten a cart yet.... I plan on going out and ground driving her but I'm thinking maybe I need to take my cart as well and see how she does with actual driving..... Maybe Monday.


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## Cayuse (Jul 30, 2017)

I like the sound of the blue roan, but that would be for me driving a single. So I guess I am no help!

I would be concerned though that he may have been in hard work too young.

Good luck with the one on monday!


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 30, 2017)

MajorClementine said:


> They say she drives but they have only ground driven her because she was pregnant and foaled 3 months ago so they hadn't gotten a cart yet.... I plan on going out and ground driving her but I'm thinking maybe I need to take my cart as well and see how she does with actual driving..... Maybe Monday.


If it isn't too much trouble, I would definitely take the cart, even if only to see if she has ever wrecked and is terrified of it. Good luck!


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## MajorClementine (Jul 31, 2017)

Marsha Cassada said:


> If it isn't too much trouble, I would definitely take the cart, even if only to see if she has ever wrecked and is terrified of it. Good luck!


We are headed down tomorrow with harness and cart to see if this little mare is a good fit for us. I'm pretty excited! I'll post how it turns out either way.


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## jeanniecogan (Aug 1, 2017)

must be fun to shop for a new mini. good luck


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## MajorClementine (Aug 1, 2017)

Update: I text the owner of the mini I was going to see today to let her know what time I would be there and that I was bringing a harness and cart. She text back that time would work. An hour later she text me saying the following :

"Hey, I'm sorry to do this and it was completely out of the blue, but a guy that I didn't think was serious about the mare just came and gave me more than what I asked for to hold her for a couple of days. If something falls through would you like me to let you know?"

I text her back "No thank you. I will try to find another horse."

So is this common practice? I let her know when I contacted her last Thursday that I would be out of town until Sunday and could come Monday or Tuesday this week. She said Tuesday was better. I also let her know that I was bringing my horse trailer and a harness and if she drove well for me I was planing on taking her home. I let her know these things so she would know that I was serious. I thought that if you had a serious buyer you had already talked to you let other buyers know that you had someone interested and would let THEM know if the sale fell through. I guess I'm old fashioned but offering me more money to bump the buyer who contacted me first doesn't impress me.

Oh well. While I am bummed about this I figure it wasn't meant to be. I'd like to find a teammate for Clem but I'm willing to take my time to do it. We'll see what I think of the other two that Raymund has found me in Iowa. 

In the meantime, if anyone has or knows of someone who has a 38" driving mini of a finer (more thoroughbred less draft like) build let me know. Bay is preferred but is not the most important factor. Thanks!


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 2, 2017)

Oh, that's too bad. I was wondering how that went. I haven't heard back from the folks about borrowing Bubba, either. I will try again.


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## Cayuse (Aug 2, 2017)

MajorClem, my cynical side is saying that the mare does not drive or has a big issue with it and when you said you were bringing the cart, they went "uh-oh" and scrambled to find a reason not to show her.

Maybe they tried driving her in the time between you setting up the appointment and the time they called you and it went badly so they needed an "out".

Or maybe someone really did offer them more money and hope you will offer more. Either way, continuing your search sounds like a good idea.

The right one will show up ☺ and when he/she does it will all go smoothly like its meant to be.


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## jeanniecogan (Aug 2, 2017)

that is a bummer. i agree with Cayuse. Keep looking. and SMILE.


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## MajorClementine (Aug 2, 2017)

Cayuse said:


> MajorClem, my cynical side is saying that the mare does not drive or has a big issue with it and when you said you were bringing the cart, they went "uh-oh" and scrambled to find a reason not to show her.
> 
> Maybe they tried driving her in the time between you setting up the appointment and the time they called you and it went badly so they needed an "out".
> 
> ...


Funny you should mention that because I wondered if she was nervous about me bringing the harness and cart too. It was only a short while after I text her to confirm the time that she sent me the text about the higher offer.

I figure the right one will come along at some point. Maybe it'll be a bay and I'll have a matched team. A girl can dream can't she?


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 2, 2017)

If she really was not a driving horse, they did you a favor, saving you the trip.


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## MajorClementine (Aug 3, 2017)

Marsha Cassada said:


> If she really was not a driving horse, they did you a favor, saving you the trip.


Agreed.

I was more annoyed with how it was handled than with not getting the horse. Especially having a cold and not really feeling like driving 2 hours to test drive the horse. In the meantime I'll just enjoy driving Clem as a single


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## Cayuse (Aug 19, 2017)

How is your horse search going? Have you seen any new prospects?


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## MajorClementine (Aug 26, 2017)

I'm heading to look at a small group of minis that a guy, who is no longer breeding, is selling. He says they are "halter broke" so we'll see what that means. If I can find something 4-7 years old that has a good willing temperament and is the right size.... I was hoping for a horse already trained to drive but I am willing to teach the new horse to drive if it's the right horse. We'll see what tomorrow brings.


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 26, 2017)

MajorClementine said:


> I'm heading to look at a small group of minis that a guy, who is no longer breeding, is selling. He says they are "halter broke" so we'll see what that means. If I can find something 4-7 years old that has a good willing temperament and is the right size.... I was hoping for a horse already trained to drive but I am willing to teach the new horse to drive if it's the right horse. We'll see what tomorrow brings.


What will you look for? I am always in the same boat. I think I will be looking for nice large eyes, width in the chest, tail set. Sellers want to run them loose in a round pen and say "look at that movement!" The horse has to have the right mind. Good luck. Hope your foray is successful.


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## Cayuse (Aug 26, 2017)

Good luck tomorrow! Seeing them in a group is nice, you can check out the herd dynamics, too. See who's Boss and not. Hope you find a good one ☺


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## MajorClementine (Aug 27, 2017)

So I found 3 studs that I like... the would be gelded ASAP of course. I have no desire to make more minis around here. 2 are appy and one is a chestnut roan I think..?? He's a chestnut color with a few grey hairs and a grey mane and tail...

Anyway...I'm leaning towards the chestnut. He's got a good temperament and moves really nicely. He's built well and, even as a stud, seems to have a good mind. He's 9 which is a little older than I wanted but Clementine turned 7 this spring so not too bad. For the price I figure he's worth giving it a try. I'm taking the weekend to think about it and will make a decision. He's not trained to drive but I think he'll be willing and smart.


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## Cayuse (Aug 27, 2017)

Sometimes having a blank slate is good. No having to fix others mistakes. Nine doesn't sound too old. He should be well past that "foolish" stage they all seem to go through and that's worth something, lol. And with him not being started, his joints should be good, no wear and tear.

I hope he works out for you! ☺


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 27, 2017)

What size is the one you are considering? He sounds a very pretty color.


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## MajorClementine (Aug 28, 2017)

I've decided to pass on the chestnut stallion. He's a little older than I wanted but I was willing to overlook that because he is such a nice looking mini. When I called to talk to the owner today he had decided that he wanted more for the horse than he had originally stated. What is it about the minis I look at? The last one supposedly sold for more than she was asking. Anyway... I kindly told him that it was more than I was willing to pay for a 9 year old untrained stallion that I would have to pay to have gelded. He stated that he was firm in his price because he had someone else interested and I thanked him for his time. Gah!!!!

So...now I have Raymond (our Amish horse trader friend) going to a sale next week to see what he can find. If he finds one I will be buying sight unseen but I trust Raymond. He knows what Clementine looks like and what I am looking for. He is also very particular about his driving horses (as the Amish are) so he will avoid any "problem" horses. He's the one who bought our Fjord team for us and we couldn't be happier with them. We'll see how it goes.


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## Cayuse (Aug 28, 2017)

I had the same thing happen to me MajorClem, when I was looking several years ago. It started of with just the horse being for sale and then when I appeared interested, it escalated to the horse and all her equipment being for sale as a package deal, all or nothing. I walked away. She went from $ to $$$$. I don't like this sales tactic at all. ?

Sorry it happened to you again.

Maybe third time's a charm!


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## paintponylvr (Sep 3, 2017)

i've had the opposite problem with some I've had for sale.

Go out and take more, current photos, maybe even some video. Send it. They can only come out the one or two days im actually at work and can't take off. Some talking back and forth and OK to the 3rd day I work - which I can get off. I request it off. The time is far enough out that I'm able to tune up the horse a bit w/o upsetting anything. I clean up the horse the evening before and then rinse off the morning of the appointment (our horses on pasture, I don't usually set up a stall anymore). While drying, I wipe down the equipment and wait. And wait. And wait. and wait...

a phone call - goes straight to their VM. Go into the house, quiet enuff not to wake the 2 adults sleeping that work nights. Turn on laptop and pop out an email. No response. I go about my day - either riding or driving the said horse myself just to enjoy. Later, I try again - still no email or phone response. I never did hear from that person (& have had several more like that).

I actually took a deposit on two ponies from someone. Then didn't hear from them for 6 months. They suddenly show up with the balance of the $ owed for the actual purchase and ready to have the ponies delivered. They totally didn't understand that they would need to pay board, farrier & vet fees (each was pretty minimal actually BUT still) before the ponies were delivered and once again I told this family that the ones they chose were all wrong for them. Well they "ante'd up" the payment (totally wish they hadn't) and I delivered them. One of the few times I went against my "gut feelings". Three years later, I get a call that they need to be picked up. Both had become bucking broncs (the mare was driving when she left and had been sat on though not saddled, the colt was too young for real work but was lounging on voice command and ground driving had been started)! I had been out to their place a few times and was always assured that they were happy with their purchase and the ponies looked good. They had cancelled the castration appointment for the stud colt (I hadn't realized that) who is now a coming 5 yr old who has been left running with mares and big horses - chasing anyone who comes into the pasture with them... OI. What a mess. Had that colt had his appointment to be castrated - we'd have known, BEFORE he was mature, that what I thought was his 2nd testicle wasn't and life would have been so much better. He's still with me - w/o as bad of an attitude due to a couple of "come to Jesus" meetings he and I have had...

The guy flagged me down at the feed store recently (Ive had the two ponies for 16 months, have had vet issues with both and one almost died, but pulled thru) and told me that I owed him for 3 yrs of "board & training"... NOT.

I think 4 years ago, i was talking with someone about possibly selling one of my mares. I was pretty reluctant. I don't remember how it happened but I did agree to haul her 2 states away for a trial... I was the one that backed out because I did come down REALLY sick (this would have been after 2012 AMHR Nationals where I had originally come down with some type of gastro flu and never got over it - found to have a growth on my kidney - was "let go" from the job I had, so I wasn't working). I had a hard time talking with her - little to no voice, high fever, severe chills. I was willing to wait (it was a possible trade - she had a younger mare that was hotter/more get up and go; I had an older mare that was quiet and fun to drive - single, pair & 3 abreast) and try again, but she flat out turned UGLY - on the phone, on voicemail and on email. I did call her a couple of days before, not the night before or the morning i'd have been leaving. She did sell or trade her mare, I believe locally and replaced her with another that she was happier with - but has never been happy with me since. I do check out her site now and then, she breeds pinto Saddlebreds.

***

All that said, I totally understand wanting to go look at and evaluate a prospective horse. I've had lots of people set appointments and then not show up, but never quite like the one you mentioned. I'm not sure which is worse!

***

Can't wait to hear how your possible new purchase goes. R you the one I saw with a horse in the white trailer in a different post?

***

While going thru all my posts and such, I realized that the two full sisters that were my first pair took two whole years to really get good together and work together and fun to drive (well, they were always "fun", but at least it became a little more relaxing and easier). Part of that was their training &/or lack there of. Part of that was driving pairs and hooking anything to a wheeled vehicle was VERY new to me. I purchased them in late September 2009 and started getting them used to the equipment in Jan 2010. I was ground driving them individually BEFORE I started taking pair driving lessons in April, then started taking them to the lessons & worked them separately. finally started working them together as a pair in June & had the one mare's foal with us the whole time... Bit was a 91 model & Bell was a 92 model, so they were 19 & 18 yrs old when we started driving them... I drove them thru Oct 2014, moved to this new place and haven't really done any driving (ground or hitched). Bit was euthanized after a pony fight earned her a broken bone right below the hip joint and she went down, never to stand again - last December... She was 25-3/4 yrs old. I drove both Bell and Bit with other ponies, once they were both trained and have always loved this pic of Bit driving with Koalah - taken the summer of 2014. I was driving alone with the wagon. Bit was already going blind in her left eye here, so she had become more comfortable always being on the right side... Koalah's knifey withers were almost a full 3" taller than Bit's muttony type, but the rest of their build and their movement was VERY similar. Koalah's VERY laid back personality seemed to calm Bit and many of her last months of driving she seemed to be less competitive and more relaxed/happy than she ever was with her full sister...




The year before this pic was taken, I was pairing Bit up with Cassie (who ended up being way more re-active than Bit had been). You'd think that putting two re-active ponies together would be bad, but Bit seemed to help Cassie while I still drove her (I gave up and eventually sold her and her daughter who had the same personality. I just was getting to where over reactive wasn't easy to deal with and was no longer fun AT ALL)... They really didn't move the same, but Bit just seemed to "fit" with Cassie well. In the first pic, I swear Bit is askin' - "Do I hafta, Ma?" To which I replied, "yep". and we had a great drive!




The 2nd pic - Bit & Cassie were both tired (later totally EXHAUSTED) - Bit had kept Cassie pretty much grounded and held steady after Cassie blew up when she stepped over a wire (not connected, not hot) and went ballistic. She ended up getting her right hind leg not only over the other side of the pole, but between Bit & Bit's trace. It was unbelievable how quiet/steady Bit held while getting re-sorted - all while riders on this particular mixed ride/drive were getting tossed left & right by their mounts... It was a terrible start to what turned out to be a good drive.




So - happy hunting!


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## paintponylvr (Sep 3, 2017)

Some of the things I've learned about pair driving -

No matter what color, they can be hard to match via shade (not impossible)

It's better to not only match them up in personality, but in type & height so that they move the same

It certainly is nice to not have them constantly "warring" with each other - either by taking turns wanting to out pull each other or one literally dragging the other at a long trot. It really gets old when you have to work so hard to keep them together.

That said - as you get better at pairs your own self - the pair will reflect that. You will pick up on issues sooner, making quiet & spontaneous corrections that become seamless driving to others.

I originally started putting together my silver dapples so that I could do a 4-up hitch. I haven't graduated to that yet & I'm currently at a different point where I'm not sure I will nor am I as worried about it. Y? BEcause I REALLY like driving a pair. It's relatively simple and I can do it by myself with out having to worry about it.

It's amazing (to me) how much harness that entails, how much work (OMG, I can't imagine doing this by myself with bigger ponies or full size horses!!) to groom & prepare the hitch. O, and maintaining that harness and the wagon...

I also have had a lot of problems with the silvers I've had...




That's a whole 'nother story!


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## MajorClementine (Sep 3, 2017)

People can be inconsiderate be it buyers or sellers. We've learned, over the years, to try to roll with the punches whenever buying or selling anything. Although, I can't imagine the guy saying YOU owed HIM money for "board and training". Really? Some people. You wonder how they have lived to adulthood with that kind of attitude. 

I am glad to hear you say matching size and build is more important because that is what I have been going for. I figure I'd rather have a color mismatched team than one that fights or moves out totally different. I've always said with my riding horses that "You can't ride color" and I believe the same with driving horses "you can't drive color". There are a lot of pretty flashy looking horses out there that I wouldn't take if you paid me. Then there are less attractive horses with solid minds and a good attitude that I've paid good money for.

I figure it'll take time to get Clem going with a teammate. I am looking at minis now that have been driven single and double to help her adjust to being part of a team. I'm willing to pay a little more for a good solid teammate.

I'm sorry to hear about Bit. Things like that are hard. We've had a few incidents over the years and it never gets easier.

In my search for a teammate I did pick up an 8 yo sorrel stud named Pistol that we're going to work with. We kinda fell in love with him and thought he'd make a nice project. Time will tell if we keep him or sell him.

Thank you for your posts. You always have straightforward helpful insight and advice and I appreciate you sharing what you know with the rest of us.


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## jventresca (Sep 5, 2017)

I agree with Paintponylvr about color and pairs. I bought 3 matching long yearlings from the same sire. Trained them to drive single. Worked with 2 as a pair. They never gelled. One was a prima donna, didn't want to work with anyone else, thank you very much! The other boy I paired up with a pinto and drove them happily until my sweet boy, Socks, passed away at 14 years old.

Buying the 3 yearlings out of a field




Socks and Kidlet (the primadonna) at Lord Stirling CDE




Socks and Steel, the best boys, at Teddy Bear Picnic


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