# Which cart would you choose ?



## jegray21 (Feb 16, 2011)

If you could buy a meadow brook or a G & S trail cart which one would you get? Thanks!


----------



## Katiean (Feb 16, 2011)

I think it depends on what you are doing with the cart.


----------



## Shari (Feb 16, 2011)

What I have, A Country Road cart. OK... I would add a Hyperbike.


----------



## Elizabeth Pannill (Feb 17, 2011)

jegray21 said:


> If you could buy a meadow brook or a G & S trail cart which one would you get? Thanks!


How big is your mini ?

The meadowbrook might be to heavy for a A size mini but the suspension ( leaf springs ) would be a smoother ride than the coil springs on the GS cart. What type wheels ? The GS cart comes with pneumatic wheels unless you get the trail cart . If you might do CDEs then I would stay away from pneumatic wheels ( they might not hold up on rough ground ) The Meadowbrook can be ordered with wooden wheels.

If you can spend a little more you might want to check with Frey Carriage in Wisconsin . The owner just announced that they are coming out with a mini size Spirit cart . Check out a picture of the horse size Spirit Cart on their web site. www.colonialcarriage.com It is said to be priced around $1995

A little less than the Pacific Smart Cart but similar look and ride.


----------



## KellyAlaska (Feb 17, 2011)

I am not sure what your budget is for a new Mini horse cart but you may want to take into consideration the shipping costs. The G&S Trail cart breaks down into 3 boxes that he ships (UPS I think?). If the other cart is a wooden cart it will be quite a bit more expensive to ship. I am considering the Mini Crown and the GS Trail cart at this point and I think due to our location the G&S Trail cart is a much more affordable shipping option. He can even ship the cart to Fairbanks Alaska for less than $400 which is amazing! Also the trail cart breaks down easily and the shafts are removable so that should make storing and traveling quite a bit easier. I spoke to the guy at G&S today and for a Mini cart with the 24inch metal wheels he thought the weight would be around 120lbs so depending on the size of your mini you might want to find out which cart weighs less. At G&S he can also add a break for an additional $75 which is way cheaper than any of the other carts I looked at. I agree the springs under the seat is not an ideal suspension and I don't currently own this cart so I have no idea what the ride will be like. He did mention that you can upgrade the seat and add a wider back rest which seemed to give a more comfortable ride. As someone who is in your same position I know it is really hard to choose. Good Luck!

Kelly


----------



## jegray21 (Feb 17, 2011)

I have three ready for training level cde later this year...I have a training cart but I need a cart I can use at the shows. they are 32" 33" 35" I have around 1,000.00 to spend and just can not decide where to go with it! I have read a lot of the threads and can't seem to make up my mind. Ahhh! we are only going to do CDE


----------



## jegray21 (Feb 17, 2011)

KellyAlaska said:


> I am not sure what your budget is for a new Mini horse cart but you may want to take into consideration the shipping costs. The G&S Trail cart breaks down into 3 boxes that he ships (UPS I think?). If the other cart is a wooden cart it will be quite a bit more expensive to ship. I am considering the Mini Crown and the GS Trail cart at this point and I think due to our location the G&S Trail cart is a much more affordable shipping option. He can even ship the cart to Fairbanks Alaska for less than $400 which is amazing! Also the trail cart breaks down easily and the shafts are removable so that should make storing and traveling quite a bit easier. I spoke to the guy at G&S today and for a Mini cart with the 24inch metal wheels he thought the weight would be around 120lbs so depending on the size of your mini you might want to find out which cart weighs less. At G&S he can also add a break for an additional $75 which is way cheaper than any of the other carts I looked at. I agree the springs under the seat is not an ideal suspension and I don't currently own this cart so I have no idea what the ride will be like. He did mention that you can upgrade the seat and add a wider back rest which seemed to give a more comfortable ride. As someone who is in your same position I know it is really hard to choose. Good Luck!
> 
> Kelly



that was a big help...I think because of shipping the G&S is going to be a better choice. I am going to go with the trail cart. now colors! geeze and I thought saving the money for the cart was the hard part..


----------



## Sue_C. (Feb 17, 2011)

Well, this should answer the question, I HAD a beautiful meadowbrook, but it was too heavy for my new driving mare, so I sold it and bought the mini "A" trail cart with the 24" metal and pneumatic wheels...with the brakes as well. The brakes I haven't put on yet...but when the weather warms, I will get them on.

I did find the seat, although beautifully done, quite slippery, so made a little seat cover from waffle material. I am going to make a low-sided wedge for it, for safety, as well as a drop, which will fancy it up a bit for presentation; and am considering having a friend make me a brush guard. I have to design it first, and am not sure which I prefer.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 17, 2011)

Neither- I don't like how high the single tree is positioned on the G&S and I would not buy a Meadowbrook for CDE. Ever.



Too heavy and for no reason at all, really. You don't need fenders, fold-up rear entry seats or any of that stuff.



If you want that look, get a road cart! Same thing really but gets rid of all the heavy, clunky, bulky extra parts and looks much more in-scale to an A mini. Cheaper, too.

For dressage and cones, pleasure shows, and versatility in switching to breed shows I'd be looking into the Graber ADS model cart. If you need one cart to do all three phases and do it well I'd personally be going for the Bellcrown Aerocrown. Anything you could put marathon shafts on and that offers a lowered angle of draft.

I wrote an article several years ago on selecting a cart for CDE and trail driving for Miniature World Showcase magazine and have a copy of it online but cannot post the link on LB. If you're interested send me a PM and I'll be happy to forward it to you.

Leia


----------



## KellyAlaska (Feb 17, 2011)

I agree the Bellcrown carriages are very very nice but the Mini crown which is less than the Aerocrown is $1795 not including shipping. In an earlier post she said her budget was around $1000 but if you can afford the extra $800 plus shipping I agree the Bellcrown carriage is the way to go. If not and you have to maintain your budget of $1000 lets talk about colors and seats for the G&S carts. I am so glad that Sue (I think I am just going off of your screen name



chimed in with her G&S cart seat experience. She responded to a post that I had about a month ago and I appreciate the heads up with the seat. I spoke with him yesterday and brought up the seat thing and he does offer other fabrics but the Marine Vinyl is what he uses as the standard seat. He did mention that you have to be careful what you clean the seat with never use Armor All or other cleaners that might make the seat slippery. (Sue I am not implying that you did this so please do not take offense it was just something he mentioned.) I can totally see where vinyl could be really slippery and that is why I asked. He is planning on offering a wedge seat for his vehicles in the future.

As far as cart colors most of the colors tend to be a little bold for my taste and when I enquired about the hammered finishes he did say that if for some reason you scratch the cart it is difficult to match. There is a spray paint he mentioned that does work but I think black seems like the way to go. I really wanted a deep purple/blue but that was not an option. If you go to the photo gallery link you can see some of the color combos that people have chosen in the past. One thing he did get excited about and you might want to consider as an extra would be Single tree spring loaded trace holder. I am new to driving so I don't know exactly what it does but seemed cool and was an additional $25 (I think). Again I am no cart expert and I am not trying to sell you the G&S cart but since I spoke with him yesterday I figured I would chime in with the answers to the questions I had. If you have not spoken with him yet I highly encourage you to give him a call. He is super friendly and is more than happy to take the time to answer any of your questions. He has tiny Mini's as well so I am sure he can give you advice about fitting multiple sizes.

Kelly


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 17, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> You don't need fenders, fold-up rear entry seats or any of that stuff. If you want that look, get a road cart! Same thing really but gets rid of all the heavy, clunky, bulky extra parts and looks much more in-scale to an A mini.


My "meadowbrook" that we use for CDEs I actually call a Meadowbrook Style cart, because the springing system is the same, but we specifically left off the fenders, rear-entry engineering, etc. to keep the weight down. So it is not really a true Meadowbrook (but the ride is still AWESOME) BUT, I still wouldn't use it for a horse less than 34". There is too much cart for the horse.

I agree with Leia's idea of using a Graber for an A horse. It and the like are probably the most versatile style cart for a little horse (but you will look like everybody else...



Oh, give me a B horse anyday....you are just so limited with A's (ducking and running.....



). I would get it stained for when you smack it against a post in a marathon course so you can touch it up....or get a Bellcrown and don't worry about it.

Myrna


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 17, 2011)

KellyAlaska said:


> I agree the Bellcrown carriages are very very nice but the Mini crown which is less than the Aerocrown is $1795 not including shipping. In an earlier post she said her budget was around $1000 but if you can afford the extra $800 plus shipping I agree the Bellcrown carriage is the way to go. If not and you have to maintain your budget of $1000 lets talk about colors and seats for the G&S carts.






I agree, which is why I said that was my _personal_ choice. What I really wanted her to focus on was the lowered draft angle and the ability to put on marathon shafts. Those are the two biggest factors that improve a training cart into something comfortable for marathon.



KellyAlaska said:


> He did mention that you have to be careful what you clean the seat with never use Armor All or other cleaners that might make the seat slippery.


This is sound advice for any vinyl seat.







KellyAlaska said:


> One thing he did get excited about and you might want to consider as an extra would be Single tree spring loaded trace holder. I am new to driving so I don't know exactly what it does but seemed cool and was an additional $25 (I think).


He is referring to these, which are $13.95 a pair and easy to install.



Instead of using a piece of rawhide cord to secure your traces, you simply lift the spring-loaded piece, slide the trace onto the singletree, then let it snap shut behind the trace to keep it from slipping off.



RhineStone said:


> I agree with Leia's idea of using a Graber for an A horse. It and the like are probably the most versatile style cart for a little horse (but you will look like everybody else...






Mind you, I said the ADS cart Graber makes. That's a little different from the show cart and is what Kateland Farms sells and uses on all their horses at Walnut Hill. Lots of different stain options, single tree in line with the shafts, rein rail, wooden wheels, and I'm sure you could make it unique pretty easily! I'd love to have it in Brewster green with brass and gold pinstripes for Kody, ebony stain with silver striping for Turbo, various seat colors, maybe a seat back...



Don't get me started!



I like it because the proportions are the same as those on a large-horse road cart so it looks much more traditional to me.



RhineStone said:


> Oh, give me a B horse anyday....you are just so limited with A's (ducking and running.....)
> 
> 
> 
> .


Hehe! I actually agree- I just decided a long time ago if I was going to bother to have a miniature it was going to be a true, tiny, adorable miniature. If I'm going to move up I'm moving all the WAY up to a real pony I can ride back to the barn!





Leia


----------



## Sue_C. (Feb 17, 2011)

> I don't like how high the single tree is positioned on the G&S


That is true, and I had the same problem with my Meadowbrook before simply taking it off, and putting it back on, underneath the bar...I am planning to do that with the Trail cart as well. I will have to shorten the whipple tree by about 2" to do that, but it is plenty wide as it is.

OMGosh, do I ever know not to put armoural on a seat. A friend did that to one of my roadsters once...thinking she was making it all clean and tidy for me as I was getting my horses ready...lets just say that was one very tricky barrel-race.








Personally, I don't like those spring loaded holders...I have seen them fail on other people's carts several times...whereas the cord has never in all my years of driving. I also like the brass or stainless hooks, but they require a round ended whipple tree.


----------



## Elizabeth Pannill (Feb 17, 2011)

My trainer bought the smallest GS cart for a 30 " mini they had in training . There are 2 trainers and both are experienced professionals -having competed in major events. They were not looking forward to using a cart with coil springs since they had just trained 3 minis -all 3 came to training with Pacific Smart Carts



but they say the ride is smooth and much better than expected. They are driving on smooth level ground .

They said the owner of GS Carts was super to work with. I have seen the cart and thought it looked VERY nice ..much nicer looking than a Frontier. I think the GS Trail Cart with the metal wheels would be the way to go since you want to compete in CDEs . You may be even able to dress it up with a wooden dash later . I would get a black one.

Elizabeth


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 17, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I'd love to have it in Brewster green with brass and gold pinstripes for Kody, ebony stain with silver striping for Turbo, various seat colors, maybe a seat back... I like it because the proportions are the same as those on a large-horse road cart so it looks much more traditional to me.


Ooo...



:yeah







hobbyhorse23 said:


> If I'm going to move up I'm moving all the WAY up to a real pony I can ride back to the barn!


Yup. Agree with you there. I have a brand new sm. pony harness and cart right now and no small pony, because I bought the harness when I was going to put all this time into a 47" pony only to find out that his spookiness was partly due to some eye degeneration.



I did show him before I found that out, and he was SOOOO much fun (other than his flakiness..) He has the speed of a big horse and the agility of a mini! SOMEDAY I'm getting another pony! Problem is... so are a whole bunch of other people. The Sm. Pony division was the largest division at Walnut Hill, and it's hard to compete against all those rich old ladies and their imported ponies!










Sue_C. said:


> Personally, I don't like those spring loaded holders...I have seen them fail on other people's carts several times...whereas the cord has never in all my years of driving. I also like the brass or stainless hooks, but they require a round ended whipple tree.


I like a hook end singletree. The deal with the spring loaded holders is that you can't keep them up when you aren't using the cart. Always put them back down and only lift them to put the traces on.

Myrna


----------



## jegray21 (Feb 18, 2011)

Great info thank you! I am going with the trail cart with the wooden dash added. I would love the bellcrown but it is just too much more money for this time around...Pretty sure black is the way to go this time. Does a darker stain wood go ok with a chestnut? I doubt this will be the only cart I buy we all know one cart just is not enough


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 18, 2011)

jegray21 said:


> Does a darker stain wood go ok with a chestnut?


Chestnut like "liver chestnut" or chestnut like sorrel? I find that more "orange" stains go better with sorrels, and "red' stains go better with bays and darker horses.

Myrna


----------



## REO (Feb 19, 2011)

Leia is there a reason why you can't copy & paste your article here?


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 20, 2011)

REO said:


> Leia is there a reason why you can't copy & paste your article here?


It's about five or six pages long and the only version I have with the pictures formatted in is a PDF file the publisher sent me.



If I uploaded it to a free website somewhere, one with no sales or miniature horse connection at all, would you as a mod allow me to post a link to it here? The article itself is allowable by forum rules, it's just that I've got the file hosted on my personal web domain which I'm not allowed to link to.

Leia


----------



## REO (Feb 21, 2011)

Sorry I was late in getting here to answer





Of course!! You can do that, or copy and paste each page into a thread.

Sounds like some great info to share!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 22, 2011)

I don't know how to break up or copy from a pdf file so I'll see if there's somewhere else I can host it.






Leia


----------



## REO (Feb 22, 2011)




----------



## shorthorsemom (Feb 26, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I don't know how to break up or copy from a pdf file so I'll see if there's somewhere else I can host it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Leia, I tried to send you a PM with some cart questions and it bounced back.. do mailboxes on LB get too full? Adair


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 26, 2011)

shorthorsemom said:


> Hey Leia, I tried to send you a PM with some cart questions and it bounced back.. do mailboxes on LB get too full? Adair


Yes, yes they do. Sorry! I tried to archive it so I could clear some old messages and couldn't figure out how to do it since the update.



I'll work on that but meanwhile you can email me at hobbyhorse23 at g mail dot com (without all the spaces and such, of course.) Sorry about that!

Leia


----------



## shorthorsemom (Feb 26, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Yes, yes they do. Sorry! I tried to archive it so I could clear some old messages and couldn't figure out how to do it since the update.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I sent you an email Leia, let me know if you don't get it. thanks Adair


----------



## shorthorsemom (Mar 11, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Neither- I don't like how high the single tree is positioned on the G&S and I would not buy a Meadowbrook for CDE. Ever.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hi Leia, I have tried to pm you with questions on carts. I am shopping carts lately looking for something becides my meadowbrook for my boy. I too noticed the height of the singletree position on the G&S trail cart. Everything else on that cart looks good, it is very similar to the minicrown that I can't afford. When I asked the guy at G&S about whether the singletree could be put on upside down to lower the draft, he said no but that he could lower the axle which would lower everything. I cannot picture how he can do this and thought I would run it by you. I wish the single tree was more in line with the shafts like the bellcrown. Is this a major consideration having the single tree in line with the shafts, because I think that even if G&S lowers the axle, it will really lower the shafts too.

I think you can put marathon shafts on the bellcrown which makes it better, but the price makes me shudder. The guy at G&S also recommended 20 inch wheels, but they seem small in comparison to the meadowbrook I am using now. Do you think that the draft is a really big issue if we would be doing trails and hills with the cart?

My trainer is cringing at my thoughts of me taking on a hyperbike, but I do admit to be on the layaway plan for one. My trainer wants me to wait and get something in between like the bellcrown, which got me looking at the G&S cart. Mostly why she wants me to wait is because of experience and the fact that my boy once in his past had a runaway incident.

My boy is 32-33 inches tall. Are the 20 inch wheels less desirable for trails than the 24 inch wheels? Your thoughts would be appreciated. I love the hyperbike and want one, but am considering an easy entry type trail cart too so I can have one of my kids ride along with me and be a header. The meadowbrook plus two in the carts is too much for my boy... thoughts and opinions appreicated from all.

What I do is around the farm driving right now, I take lessons, we do hills and trails. I may do CDE someday, but that is in the way future if at all... thanks. Adair


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 11, 2011)

Adair, I know you asked for Leia's input, but I thought I might be able to help in the meantime.



shorthorsemom said:


> When I asked the guy at G&S about whether the singletree could be put on upside down to lower the draft, he said no but that he could lower the axle which would lower everything. I cannot picture how he can do this and thought I would run it by you.


Lowering everything isn't going to solve your problem, it would just make your cart smaller.



shorthorsemom said:


> I wish the single tree was more in line with the shafts like the bellcrown. Is this a major consideration having the single tree in line with the shafts, because I think that even if G&S lowers the axle, it will really lower the shafts too.


Exactly. The purpose of having the singletree in line with the angle of the draft is the ease of pulling for the horse. Think about if you were pulling a sled through the snow. You want your draft to be as close to the point of resistance as possible, that is, down by the ground. But say your sled had a "gooseneck" and you had to pull it from there. Can you see how that would make pulling more difficult? Now say you actually have the pulling straps (traces) going "uphill" even further away from the point of resistance. That makes it even more difficult.

Now, that being said, you also have to consider the angle of the collar you are using on the horse. The breastcollar is designed to take a "level" pull, that is straight out from the shoulder, level to the ground. A full collar rests on the horse's shoulders at an angle, and the most effective, comfortable pull for that collar is lower, so that the traces are at a right (90 degree) angle to the collar. Think of it this way. Hold your hand straight up. If that was your horse's collar, the pull should be at a right angle to your hand. Now tip your hand like a full collar rests. The same right angle to your hand culminates considerably lower. If you use a full collar with a "level" draft, the pull on the collar is not equalized all the way around the neck/shoulders of the horse. The pull is only at the bottom of the collar, somewhat defeating the purpose of using a full collar.



shorthorsemom said:


> The guy at G&S also recommended 20 inch wheels, but they seem small in comparison to the meadowbrook I am using now. Do you think that the draft is a really big issue if we would be doing trails and hills with the cart? Are the 20 inch wheels less desirable for trails than the 24 inch wheels?


Well, there is a trade off with mini wheels. Yes, smaller wheels weigh less than larger ones, BUT in rough and rocky ground, larger wheels are more beneficial, as they can roll over bumps more easily. Smaller wheels may get stuck in ruts that larger wheels can roll right over.

Myrna


----------



## shorthorsemom (Mar 11, 2011)

thanks Myrna for your answers. I have a breast collar and it is adjusted so the buckle in traces go directly level with the shaft and into the singletree which is upside down on my meadowbrook. Not ideal in appearance to have the singletree on the bottom but my trainer is very particular with the draft and making things easier to pull. She wanted me to start taking things off my meadowbrook to make it lighter, but I would rather sell it than take it apart and buy something better suited and easier to get in and out of. I don't like the weight of my meadowbrook and I don't like how far I am out on the reins entering from the rear of the cart although I always use a header helper when I am entering and exiting the cart. The ride is nice though and very cute and would make an adorable road or show cart for someone.

I keep shopping hoping to find something that is better suited for my kind of driving and doesn't break the bank.

I hear the ride on the minicrown isn't that comfortable and I never did like how low the back rest is on that cart. I sat in it once and although I know you aren't supposed to lean back, it did feel rather unsupported. I wish I could design my own cart. I just keeping on shopping and can't make a decision.

I have much more to learn and don't want to buy anything without a bunch of research and end up ordering the wrong thing. The people at G&S are very nice and it is a beautiful cart, but the height of the singletree is what is still making me wait on my decision.

Thank you Myrna for some more education, I really appreciate it. I still want my hyperbike, but want a trail cart too. sigh.

I do have an offer to go try out some carts from a mini CDE experienced friend, I am rethinking that might be a good idea and help me with my decisions on something...

Adair


----------



## shorthorsemom (Mar 11, 2011)

Has anybody tried Graham carriage works pleasure/trail cart that is on his web page? Lots of money, but with Bob's layaway plan I could probably save toward it, nobody else has such a fair deal as Bob and his layaway plan.

Anybody out there have one of these and can you do trails and hills etc? Just curious. still shopping... Adair


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 12, 2011)

shorthorsemom said:


> I have a breast collar and it is adjusted so the buckle in traces go directly level with the shaft and into the singletree which is upside down on my meadowbrook. *Not ideal in appearance to have the singletree on the bottom* but my trainer is very particular with the draft and making things easier to pull.


Oh, I don't know about that....any judge worth their weight understands what you are doing. While we haven't put a singletree on upside down, we have undermounted the cross bar and put the singletree on top, therefore lowering the singletree. You can see examples of this on our website.

There are other really nice mini vehicles where the builder (who understands how driving horses work) has adjusted the position of the singletree to make the pull more logical. Eve Dexter has a really nice mini Gig made by Jeff Kohler where the singletree is mounted lower so that she can use it with her full collars. You can see a photo here: http://www.relhok.ca/rcc_cars_new.htm

As long as there is a logical, safe reason for making adjustments to a vehicle, go ahead and do it!





Myrna


----------



## Sue_C. (Mar 12, 2011)

> the singletree is mounted lower so that she can use it with her full collars


And that is exactly what I plan to have done to my G & S cart...shouldn't be hard, no reason why it won't work. As it is, it is only the depth of the cross bar "high", so not that much higher than it will be, more of an aesthetic difference really. Actually most, if not all, of the regular EE carts, and meadowbrooks I have seen have the whipple tree a tad too high.


----------



## ClickMini (Mar 12, 2011)

OMG, that Relhok Gig is GORGEOUS!!! Thanks a lot, Myrna! Something else to be wishful for. LOL Yes, it is now bookmarked.


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 12, 2011)

One challenge with trying to undermount a singletree or a cross bar is that the singletree needs to be narrow enough to fit in between the shafts or whatever else might be "in the way", frame, etc. The singletree also needs to be wide enough to be beneficial for the horse. This may take some planning on behalf of the builder.

Yes, most mini vehicles have the singletree too high. Way back in the early 2000's, Craig Kellogg was the TD at one of the shows we were at. While we were waiting for our class, he noticed the singletree placement on top of the cross bar and how high it was for the minis. This is not an unusual arrangement for a big horse vehicle which is why it has carried over to the mini vehicles. But of course in mini vehicles inches matter. Half and quarter inches matter, too. Where it wouldn't make that much difference in the draft of a 15-16HH horse, it makes a world of difference in a mini vehicle. After he pointed this out, he wondered out loud about undermounting the singletree. Prior to him making that comment, we were novice enough that we had no idea you could even do that. But a few years later, we tried it with our vehicles and have been happy with the draft ever since. And NO ONE has made any comments about it looking "silly".

Myrna


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 12, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> OMG, that Relhok Gig is GORGEOUS!!!


Yes, but as with most things, "gorgeous" comes with weight and a price tag!



(Things that a lot of mini people have an issue with...



) Eve told me that the gig is fairly heavy for her 33" horses, which is why she uses the full collar. Personally, except for "weakling" horses, I don't mind if my horses have to pull a bit more. It makes them use their butt more!

Myrna


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 12, 2011)

shorthorsemom said:


> I hear the ride on the minicrown isn't that comfortable and I never did like how low the back rest is on that cart. I sat in it once and although I know you aren't supposed to lean back, it did feel rather unsupported. I wish I could design my own cart.


If the ride of that person's Minicrown isn't that comfortable, they didn't get the torsion axles adjusted for their weight.



My older Minicrown was a little stiff for me (which was still better than any other type of spring I'd tried!) but the one I had customized for my weight was smooooooth.



And we've got some hella rough ground to try it out over, trust me!





The lower back rest is one of the things I love as I'm a smaller person and can't stand having the higher back rests punching me in the kidneys with every stride. With the lower one it still catches me if the horse scoots forward but I can just absorb the motion of the cart with my hips as I would when riding and all is well.



shorthorsemom said:


> I do have an offer to go try out some carts from a mini CDE experienced friend, I am rethinking that might be a good idea and help me with my decisions on something...


This is really the best thing you can do. Find the cart *you* like the best and customize it to have the other features you want. If you can't have all of them, focus on draft and ride first, looks second.



RhineStone said:


> Eve Dexter has a really nice mini Gig made by Jeff Kohler where the singletree is mounted lower so that she can use it with her full collars. You can see a photo here: http://www.relhok.ca/rcc_cars_new.htm


I'm with Amy-



I'd have the wheels a size smaller and bent shafts on that thing, but otherwise it's gorgeous!



RhineStone said:


> Yes, but as with most things, "gorgeous" comes with weight and a price tag!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well, ya know, if I had money I'd have full-sized horses instead of minis.





The problem for many minis is that they aren't built to easily use their rumps in the first place so the more you load them, the harder it is for them to track up properly and really use their toplines. You don't want a "light" cart behind them, just one that isn't past that threshold for making everything into sheer draft work! Unfortunately that threshold is fairly low for many A-sized minis with modern refinement, especially in arena footing or on hills. There comes a point where the vehicle and driver simply outweigh the horse and that isn't fair to ask them to pull through less than ideal conditions. Kody only weighed 230lbs when we were competing so he was at his max with only a 120lb cart and 100lb driver.






Also, many of us want a light cart because we have to use the same thing for an experienced competition horse and a green horse. What the conditioned horse can easily haul will overface and intimidate a green horse and it isn't fair to ask that of them IMO.



Frankly half of us don't want to be driving in the first place- we want to ride but they're too small so we try to lighten the load behind them as much as possible so we can pretend it isn't there!



Maybe that's just me.





Leia


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 12, 2011)

shorthorsemom said:


> Everything else on that cart looks good, it is very similar to the minicrown that I can't afford.


No, it really isn't.



Now before anyone gets upset, I'm not slapping at the very nice G&S cart nor am I saying you should buy a Bellcrown you can't afford. But they are apples to oranges. Different suspension systems, different draft, different shafts, different axles, different everything. The only thing similar is that they fit the same size range of horses and they're both usually black.



shorthorsemom said:


> Is this a major consideration having the single tree in line with the shafts, because I think that even if G&S lowers the axle, it will really lower the shafts too.


Myrna covered this nicely for you and I'm glad she replied as she's more of a cart expert than I am. She builds them!



I just drive them.



For a cart with horizontal draft, yes, I want the singletree at least in line with the shafts if not preferably lower. As Myrna said, a few inches makes a very big difference with miniatures and Kody lets me know that he doesn't like that feeling of his traces being downhill from the cart. He also doesn't like it when I run the traces through the breeching holdbacks on my EE to try and keep the angle down. The interference is felt in his shoulders and inhibits his movement. Sometimes it's useful having a very picky horse!



You learn a lot from them.



shorthorsemom said:


> I think you can put marathon shafts on the bellcrown which makes it better, but the price makes me shudder. The guy at G&S also recommended 20 inch wheels, but they seem small in comparison to the meadowbrook I am using now. Do you think that the draft is a really big issue if we would be doing trails and hills with the cart?


Yes, honestly it is. You can trail drive just fine in a cart with horizontal draft but it was designed for vehicles that were going to be rolling smoothly along country roads. It works very well in that context. But once you start bouncing over tree roots and through potholes and asking your horse to pull a solid percentage of his own weight up hill on a regular basis, you owe it to him to give him the best setup possible. That means large wheels to glide over the potholes, lowered draft to help lift it out of the potholes, and preferably some sort of contoured breastcollar if not a neck collar to ease the jolts to his shoulders.

Marathon shafts which end at the saddle are most useful if you're going to be making tight turns constantly, otherwise bent shafts that go all the way to the shoulder are fine. I like the bent shafts over straight shafts because they allow the holdback straps on the breeching to lie flat at the correct height and the tips turn out away from the shoulder so the horse doesn't get poked in the neck when he moves into them.

Let me be clear- I, personally, would be perfectly happy trail driving in a regular EE with straight shafts, 20" wheels and even coil springs as long as I could lower the singletree. That is the single biggest thing for comfort for the horse! You don't have to go spend a mint on a fancy cart.



shorthorsemom said:


> My trainer is cringing at my thoughts of me taking on a hyperbike, but I do admit to be on the layaway plan for one. My trainer wants me to wait and get something in between like the bellcrown, which got me looking at the G&S cart. Mostly why she wants me to wait is because of experience and the fact that my boy once in his past had a runaway incident.


Well, something in between is always a good idea. That way you have a slightly lighter, more mobile cart than your current meadowbrook to use all the time and the 'Bike for when you want to strap on wings.



If they want to take off they're going to no matter what they're hauling, but I'll admit they do get a bit more frisky in the 'Bike than a regular cart and that can be a pain as they don't tire out nearly as quickly.



I know you had a bunch of specific questions about that in your email which I'll answer privately. What you're asking about at this point is more what to do for your meadowbrook replacement, and for that I'd say you're probably going to be stuck with 20" wheels on an EE-style cart given your horse's size but if you can modify the singletree that will be fine.

Leia


----------



## Shari (Mar 12, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> You can see a photo here: http://www.relhok.ca/rcc_cars_new.htm
> 
> As long as there is a logical, safe reason for making adjustments to a vehicle, go ahead and do it!
> 
> ...


Oh Drool.... that is one nice cart... I want!!


----------



## shorthorsemom (Mar 12, 2011)

Thank you everybody for all those experienced and terrific answers on carts!! Leia, I sent you an email (at least I think I did) as to which direction I am thinking of going now. I did find Leia's cool article on carts and helpful information on different types of carts. Myrna, thank you too for your very excellent explanations about draft and angle and wheels and everything you explained so well to me. On my quest for more information, I did find out today that the mini crown has a conversion for shorter leg people. The minicrown I sat in before was sized for a taller driver which is why my feet were dangling in space and I didn't feel right sitting in it. The importance of fit to driver and horse is now firmly inbedded into my brain and now I am on a mission to find the right cart. I would rather have one high dollar well fitted decent weighted cart, than two carts that aren't quite there for me whether it be for level of experience or lack of proper fit, it really is the same importance that you get the cart right and somewhere along there I am thinking I may be on the right track now. Hope that makes sense, I will be sure to let you know what I end up with.

Thanks again Myrna and Leia and everybody else that chipped in and helped this newbie understand more about carts and fits. This forum is great



Adair


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 12, 2011)

shorthorsemom said:


> The importance of fit to driver and horse is now firmly inbedded into my brain and now I am on a mission to find the right cart. I would rather have one high dollar well fitted decent weighted cart, than two carts that aren't quite there for me whether it be for level of experience or lack of proper fit,














You don't know how much that is music to my ears!!!

Myrna


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 13, 2011)

That's great, Adair. Congratulations!

I did think of a couple more small things last night- first, that the back rest is probably a little higher for me on my Bellcrown as I put new, lower seat cushions on it so my feet could brace firmly on the floor boards. That may be coloring my perspective on whether it's too low or not. Second, on the subject of high singletrees, I did find that it's possible to reduce the angle of the traces by replacing the high-mount sword-end singletree with a hook-end one that has the point of attachment centered in the middle of the block of wood rather than up near the top of the block of wood. I'm not sure if you'll know what I mean, but if you look closely it's like those sword-end singletrees were made by shaving up from the bottom only rather than equally from the top and bottom. It's not much, but it helps when you can't remount the entire singletree lower.



shorthorsemom said:


> Leia, I sent you an email (at least I think I did) as to which direction I am thinking of going now.


You did.



I swear one of these days I'll read it on my laptop instead of my cell phone so I can type a long reply!



shorthorsemom said:


> On my quest for more information, I did find out today that the mini crown has a conversion for shorter leg people. The minicrown I sat in before was sized for a taller driver which is why my feet were dangling in space and I didn't feel right sitting in it.


I don't know about a conversion, but if you buy directly from Carriage Machine Works instead of going through a distributor they are VERY good at sizing the cart for you. When I ordered a prototype Aerocrown for competitors to try out here in the NW we discussed my height, weight, usage, horse, terrain, and the cart that showed up later was PERFECT for us both. A much better fit than my original Minicrown model. And he customized the torsion axles for my weight so the ride was nice and cushy.



shorthorsemom said:


> I would rather have one high dollar well fitted decent weighted cart, than two carts that aren't quite there for me whether it be for level of experience or lack of proper fit, it really is the same importance that you get the cart right and somewhere along there I am thinking I may be on the right track now.






A very sound principle. Unless you've got more money than Bill Gates it's generally good to get a set of safe, sound starter equipment and stick with that as you do your research. Eventually you'll be prepared to buy what you really want instead of going through one or more intermediate level carts that you'll find aren't exactly what you're looking for. If you jump to upgrade before you know what you need you'll end up spending far more money in the end and the only ones who get a good deal are the local folks who later buy those carts from you and don't have to pay shipping!





Trust me- we've all been there, done that. I have four carts now (Hyperbike, Bellcrown, Frontier and a Graber show cart) and with the exception of some changes I'd like to make to the show cart (open wheels instead of closed, lower singletree, and maybe a different pinstripe to work with Turbo) I've found that combination covers all my needs. But to get there I went through an Edgeman EE cart (too heavy), a Houghton (too narrow for the horse) and a homemade Canadian show cart! If I'd gotten to see any of those carts in person before I bought them I would have saved myself at least a thousand dollars in shipping because I would have _known_, immediately, that they weren't going to work. After that I did the smart thing and tried out every cart I could get my hands on to find out what I liked and what I didn't. Then I went straight to the vehicles I have now and am very happy with them.

The lesson I learned is always try out a cart model you're interested in before purchasing and if you can't, wait. Or at least talk to someone who owns one and is able to discuss in detail with you what they like about it or don't! "It's great" doesn't cut it. _What_ is great? How does it fit someone of similar size? There are so many things you don't learn about until you've been driving awhile and they make all the difference in your satisfaction with your equipment. The longer you wait, the more you'll know and the more likely it is you'll end up with something you love.

Forums like this are a lot of help but they can't take the place of actually riding in that cart.





Leia


----------



## ClickMini (Mar 13, 2011)

Even if you go through a dealer like Carriage Driving Essentials you can have your Bellcrown cart adjusted to fit you. When I ordered my Aerocrown (which will be here on Wednesday!!!! Can't wait!) they got my height, weight (they put it together with a more heavy duty suspension to accommodate me, embarrassing but true!), and the height of the minis I will be driving it with. Some things on it are still adjustable, like the stirrup placement. I am sooooo excited to see how this works out for us this year!


----------

