# Would you breed to a stallion?



## Knighthawke (Dec 24, 2005)

Hello Everyone,


I just had a question. I have never delt with a stallion that I know has produced dwarfs.

 


I know of a very beautiful stallion that has exceptional bloodlines. I contacted the lady about seeing if she would lease him to me because my stallion was not old enough to breed last year and didnt seem interested (He was 2 1/2). So probably this year he will be ready to go, but he is a tiny stallion bearly 29 1/2 inches tall. I have a couple b mares to breed next spring and I dont think he would get it done, let alone I didnt want to give him a bad experience. SO


I asked my friend if I could lease her stallion. She was very honest. She told me that she stopped breeding after getting him because he:

 


Throw B size offspring sometimes - Which I dont care I like larger for driving.

 


He didnt throw color which he is from good appy lines - Which I like appies but if there solid I can deal with that.

 


But the third responce was he thru dwarfs. I am not sure how many if it was just one or what. I am going to contact her about if it was one time or what. 

 


I really like this stallion when he thru color WOW. And the nice ones were nice. But she said she could not recommend him. 

 


She has another stallion I could lease that is appy but it is a 1/2 brother to my mares so that wouldn't work.

 


[SIZE=14pt]WHAT WOULD YOU DO???[/SIZE]

 


Thanks for any input. You can send private emails if you prefer.


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## Minimor (Dec 24, 2005)

No. I will not breed a horse, mare or stallion, that I know has produced a dwarf.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 24, 2005)

NO DEFINITELY NOT!!!! You may end up with another horse that carries the gene and will continue to pass it on. If you knew how dwarves suffer you wouldn't even consider it. We are breeding miniature horses not dwarves.


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 24, 2005)

Like Minimor, I would not breed any horse that has produced a dwarf. Even if you do not 'get' an actual visible dwarf, there is a risk of producing even more 'carriers'-which,IMO, is one big reason why there are still a fair number of dwarves being produced within miniature horses.


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## smlotsocats (Dec 24, 2005)

NO! I have 2 dwarfs. I love them more than life itself but PLEASE do not perpetuate this gene! ! This stallion is definitely not the ONLY stallion in the world! In my opinion, he should be a gelding! If you want more info on dwarfs, please PM me.


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## Relic (Dec 24, 2005)

Not a good idea l think anything that has produced a dwarf should never be bred again and fixed. l know in my area it is a hush hush thing and people are still in the closet so to speak but l have heard of more of them in the past few years. Then there is the donkey butt who is up front and actually raises them for resale and has them sold each year without a problem.


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## Chamomile (Dec 24, 2005)

No! We had a stallion that produced a dwarf for us and I'm positive he had produced them before and just kept getting sold on. We promptly gelded him. I know that some of the big name stallions have probably sired dwarves and that's something we will never know... If I *did *know the stallion produced them, he would be gelded promptly. The little mare our stallion threw the dwarf with has been sold as a pet only... The dwarf was the light of my days when he was alive, and the absolute sweetest little guy, he died at 3 months old and it was one of the hardest things my Mom and I had to do, the day we decided to have him put down. His little legs couldn't hold his weight anymore. Even the vet got teary



No after that experience I wouldn't breed a stallion that I knew produced dwarves.


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## Sandee (Dec 24, 2005)

Knighthawke said:


> Hello Everyone,...........
> 
> 
> She has another stallion I could lease that is appy but it is a 1/2 brother to my mares so that wouldn't work.
> ...


 


Is there a big reason you wouldn't want to breed to the 1/2 brother? I mean some fault in the line that you are worried about reproducing? Because breeding that close will reinforce any faults (high rump, bad legs, etc) but other than that it's done. I mean look at the father's to daughters etc. in the breed book. If I liked the line, I might try the 1/2 brother. Otherwise, are you too far away from a good vet facility to get AI (using frozen sperm)?


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## hhpminis (Dec 24, 2005)

No, I would not breed to a stallion that produces or has produced a dwarf. I know there are some that have 10 normal and then a dwarf, but it is painful to watch some of these babies grow with the health problems they have.

Just a side note. I would not rebreed a mare that produced a dwarf either.

There are many many nice stallions out there to breed to, you do not have to choose second best. Find out more about this guy and then make the right decision.


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## bluerogue (Dec 24, 2005)

Where are you located? Maybe someone here on the forum can help you out. I am with the others... I would not knowingly breed to a stallion who had sired dwarves previously. I couldn't take knowing I would only have the foal for a short time before it's pain got to be too much for it. I want to have my foals around for longer than only a couple of years.


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## Sue_C. (Dec 24, 2005)

No, absolutely not...



> I really like this stallion when he thru color WOW. And the nice ones were nice. But she said she could not recommend him


What I wonder, is why on Earth she still has him as a stallion, if even she says she wouldn't recommend him. Geld-geld-geld!!!


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## capall beag (Dec 24, 2005)

No, I wouldn't do it knowingly.

I would feel awful if another dwarf was produced and suffered because of my choices.

But must ad I know very little about the gene that causes dwarfism and if both parents must be carries to produce a dwarf etc.


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## hhpminis (Dec 24, 2005)

Capall, I think nobody knows a lot about the dwarf gene. That in itself is one BIG reason in my opinion to stay away from any known carrier.

It is very disheartening when it shows up, it is a tough decision to make but any breeding animal if it produces non desireable qualities, whether the animal themself be of superior quality or not needs to be taken out of the reproduction cycle.

All of us should be striving to better the breed. That is what responsible breeding is. So in my opinion, if an animal does not out produce themself, mare or stallion, it should not be bred.

And trust me, I know, this is easier said than done. Just think of all the wonderful performance geldings and mares we would have if this were readily practiced.


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## DunPainted (Dec 24, 2005)

Frankly, I don't know much about the dwarf genetic code. Sadly, a friend purchased a beautiful stallion and the owner didn't disclose that 80 percent of his offspring were dwarfs.

Clearly, this stallion should've been gelded with such a track record by the original owner.

The plight of dwarfs is a sad, painful one. Yes, they bring their caregivers so much joy, as they're so loving. However, watching them slowly perish from breathing problems, etc. is heartbreaking.

Please, for the love of the breed, do not follow through with leasing this stallion. There are sooo many beautiful ones out there, why take a known chance.

Idea: Perhaps you could place an ad on the Sale Board, outlining your need to "lease" a stallion for a breeding season. Trust me, there are plenty of folks that would jump at the chance to have one less pasture to maintain!

Cindy


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## SkipsMom (Dec 24, 2005)

Wish you had been with me at work three weeks ago when we dealt with a newborn foal w/ genetic problems that his dam provided. It was a pony foal, not a mini, but pain is pain no matter what the size of the offspring. The cranial swelling, the IV line, the fluids and blindness were all the foal experienced in her 48 hours of life. Hopefully the foal felt the love too from her owners and the clinic staff.

The gal is a first time horse owner/backyard breeder and one that doesn't ask questions, she just "breeds it" and other deal with the disasters. Your light years ahead of her by coming here and asking opinions and I tip my hat to you. Please take to heart what people have shared here with you and what the stallion owner has offered. It is one thing to have a mare foal an unexpected dwarft and it is totally different to knowlingly breed a/to a horse that has a documented history of producing dwarfts.


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## Marty (Dec 24, 2005)

No, definately not.

I do repect the owner for being so honest with you.

Wondering why she hasn't gelded him?

Wondering if he also exhibits dwarf characteristics himself?


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 24, 2005)

hhpminis said:


> Capall, I think nobody knows a lot about the dwarf gene.  That in itself is one BIG reason in my opinion to stay away from any known carrier.It is very disheartening when it shows up, it is a tough decision to make but any breeding animal if it produces non desireable qualities, whether the animal themself be of superior quality or not needs to be taken out of the reproduction cycle.
> 
> 528469[/snapback]
> ​


I really have to agree with hhp. (both of her posts) I think many would say they would breed if the horse produced just one dwarf. I don't know enough about it to make a judgment.

But what really ticks me off is knowingly breeding a stallion or mare or pair that has produced dwarves and selling them to people. It is underhanded and terribly disreputable. Especially without telling them. But I myself, would not breed the horses to begin with. It does nothing to better the breed. There are just to many dishonest breeders out there. And down the road it cause nothing but heartache.


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## Knighthawke (Dec 24, 2005)

Thanks for everyones responce. I never delt with dwarfs or had one. So that is why I was asking. YOU helped me make up my mind.

I only have one question. Since I know this stallions bloodlines, would you stay competley away from this stallions pedigree. The other stallion she has is not related to him at all, so I could use him with no problem.

I will say even the lady that has him stopped breeding compeletly because of him. She went back to the well known farm and told them and she paid BIG bucks for him and they didnt even seem to care.

Well thank again maybe I will try line breeding with her other stallion. I used him before and have a really nice tiny filly from him. I just never delt with line breeding.

Thanks again.


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## RENMACMINIS (Dec 24, 2005)

Barbara,

Just breed all of your mares to Zorro, Thunder Cloud or Codys Cool Attitude and you would have lots and lots of pretty foals!!





Sherry


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## hhpminis (Dec 24, 2005)

Here is an example of mistakes we have made in the past as far as an industry. I was doing research last year on pedigrees and gathering pictures of horses that we see a lot in pedigrees. This one shocked me. He has numerous get, grand get, etc. out there, sure most that are alive today are fine, but how many were there that we dont now about. How many rogue dwarf genes that didn't display are out there in the breeding stock that we have today?

????????????????????????? Who knows!

Introducing Dell Teras Lord of the Isles!


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 24, 2005)

I am so glad to see this topic brought up because people just starting out in Miniatures really do need to understand the horrible consequences in breeding known dwarf producers. Yes there may be some who think they are cute but they can suffer and they can be unsightly. Thank you Annette for putting the picture on...more and more we need to learn what lines have produced dwarfs and then avoid them. I wish each and every person who has had a dwrf would let all of us know what the breeding was so we are aware. This is why this forum is so terrific...we learn and learn and learn. Mary


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## runamuk (Dec 24, 2005)

I would want to know the circumstances further....was it one dwarf or was it many.....what was the status of the mare that produced the dwarf if it was only once..her age, health, nutritional status, possible illness or contact with chemical or biological contaminants......

And this breed would have very very few horses if any left to use if you avoided all the lines that have produced dwarves




especially since many many farms would never admit to them and continue breeding, and not to mention the sheer number of horses who have pedigrees that are wrong.



I believe to eliminate it entirely we would need to start over with pony stock and begin breeding down...however dwarfism also happens with less frequency in shetlands, welsh, arabians, and friesens


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## ThreeCFarm (Dec 24, 2005)

No, I wouldn't breed to a dwarf producer. In fact, we gelded one last year at 15 years old, despite the fact that he was the sire of a PtHA Reserve World Champion, Supreme Champs, Honor Roll horses, etc. I don't want to produce carriers of the dwarf gene. Our former stallion is now a wonderful driving gelding a few hours from here. BTW, after it happened to us, we found out from a previous owner (not the one who sold him to us) that it wasn't his first dwarf! If they would have gelded him, we woudn't have experienced the heart ache that we did. I don't blame them for our not knowing, as that should have been revealed by the person we bought him from. One dwarf is all it takes for me!

As far as avoiding anything from his bloodlines, no I wouldn't do that. There is no way to know which horse passed the dwarf gene(s) on--his dam or sire, unless you know if one of them has produced a dwarf. And then you wouldn't know which one of that horse's parents passed it on, etc. You'd be ruling out a lot of horses for no reason. I'm sure someone else could say this much clearer, but this is the best I can do right now.

Realized late last night that I forgot to add that the mare that produced the dwarf is now in a pet home with two little girls to love her.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 24, 2005)

runamuk said:


> I would want to know the circumstances further....was it one dwarf or was it many.....what was the status of the mare that produced the dwarf if it was only once..her age, health, nutritional status, possible illness or contact with chemical or biological contaminants......
> And this breed would have very very few horses if any left to use if you avoided all the lines that have produced dwarves
> 
> 
> ...



While I somewhat agree.. if someone took a stance a few years ago (seeing as our breed isnt that old) we might not have nearly as many line producing dwarves as we do today


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## Chamomile (Dec 24, 2005)

I just have to add... There was a threaad started about this very same topic, last summer, I think, and so many people said they *would* breed to a stallion that produced dwarves. They said it wasn't fair to blame the stallion when both mare and stallion had to have the gene, ect... If I remember correctly the stallion in question then was young and hadn't had many foals, one dwarf and one with some other problem. And yet people said "Give him a chance!" I think it's so interesting to see how people change over time. We had our dwarf at the time and so am still on the same side I was then, *don't do it*!! I am very happy to read that more people are trying to steer clear of that issue!


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## CNC MINIS (Dec 24, 2005)

I would never breed a known dwarf producer not only is it heart breaking when they only live for a short time and most suffer you are adding more to the breeding pool.

What do you tell someone that has a known dwarf producer that thinks the horse is the greatest thing in the world and doesn't want to hear about having him gelded and wants to keep breeding him? What would you tell this person? And yes she stands this horse at stud.





Christy


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## hhpminis (Dec 24, 2005)

Hi Christy

Unfortunately that is a tough thing to do. We really can only police ourselves when it all boils down.

If this person is aware that her stallion produces dwarves, whether that be 1 or more than other than making a recommendation that she doesn't breed, what she does with her stallion is up to her conscience.

Not all dwarf producers are consistent dwarf producers. I dont know what the "right" gene mixture is for that gene to make itself evident. Does it take a gene from each parent? I dont know.

When I went to the AMHA convention in Portland there was a speaker that discussed the research being done on dwarves. It is limited but at least it is being researched. At least it is being recognized as a problem.

It is somewhat like breeding for Overos, the chance of having a lethal white is very much a possibilty but some are willing to do it and prepare themself for the possibility. I could not do that either. _*Before the flamethrowers come out*_, I am not comparing the 2 as anything alike, just stating that some breeders, aware of the possibilities choose to take chances.


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## Leeana (Dec 24, 2005)

..i wouldnt take the chance personally.

If i knew the stallion threw dwarves or could have the gene ...it wouldnt even cross my mind to breed or be taken into consideration.

Leeana


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## New_Image (Dec 24, 2005)

> I would want to know the circumstances further....was it one dwarf or was it many.....what was the status of the mare that produced the dwarf if it was only once..her age, health, nutritional status, possible illness or contact with chemical or biological contaminants......


That was pretty much my first thought on this subject.


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## PaintsRule (Dec 25, 2005)

Okay, since I am new to this, and dont know too much about Dwarves, by everyone's replies I assume the dwarf gene is recessive???? if that is so, I didnt see too much mention of the mares in question that produced the dwarf gene, not being used again...... if its not recessive (and only one copy is needed) then why was the mares that produced the dwarf not blacklisted too.......

And are we sure its genetic at all, in that a parent has to pass it on?

Just wanting to learn.


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## Debby - LB (Dec 25, 2005)

....Exactly what I was thinking Mindy. I remember that post and ones before that. At the time most members recommended never breeding the mare and stallion in question_ together _again but don't throw them away yet.....use them with other mates then if it happens again retire either from the breeding shed. I don't see the need, I'm of the mind it takes them both so for me neither will breed again. There are so many miniatures why even try again with either? The heartache of producing dwarves really should have been controlled in the miniature horse registry already, by that I mean stricter breeding and registering rules.

I just don't see the need to continue to breed a know dwarf thrower, some older breeders take it as a given that it happens sometimes and I know it does but it doesn't have too.... we are educated enough now to see what needs to be done.

So I guess you see what my answer is, No I wouldn't consider it.


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## kaykay (Dec 25, 2005)

i do not believe that there is a mini bloodline that has never produced a dwarf. It is in every bloodline. If we threw out every bloodline that has produced a dwarf we would be left with zero. That includes famous stallions that we all admire and talk about here almost daily. They would all be geldings.

We can reduce the risk of producing a dwarf but we cannot eliminate it since there is so much unknown about dwarfism.

I think the biggest problem is minimal expression dwarfs. People dont see the dwarf traits and breed them.


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## mizbeth (Dec 25, 2005)

hhpminis said:


> Hi ChristyUnfortunately that is a tough thing to do.  We really can only police ourselves when it all boils down.
> 
> If this person is aware that her stallion produces dwarves, whether that be 1 or more than other than making a recommendation that she doesn't breed, what she does with her stallion is up to her conscience.
> 
> ...


I agree with this statement 100%. It is the responsibility of the breeder to make decisions regarding their breeding/programs. We have yet to have a dwarf but feel with the law of averages it could happen one day. I know several breeders that continue to breed their proven dwarf producing stallions/mares. It is unfortunate of course if they produce a dwarf. But since the research is still new perhaps their are other causes for foals being born a dwarf/dwarf characteristics? I would like to think that anyway.

I had a breeder tell me one day, that they had a mare that produced a LW every other year. Gee.........that would break my heart, but that is me! Any business especially raising live animals has risks. Some of us can take them and some not. I think in general everyone is concerned about protecting our miniature horses, the breed as whole and try to breed the best they can.

I appreciate this board more than anyone knows as I have learned SO MUCH about miniature horses, breeding, foaling, raising, training them.

But to answer your original question. I don't think I would continue to breed a stallion or mare that produces dwarfs.

Have a Merry Christmas.....

Beth


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## mizbeth (Dec 25, 2005)

DunPainted said:


> Frankly, I don't know much about the dwarf genetic code.  Sadly, a friend purchased a beautiful stallion and the owner didn't disclose that 80 percent of his offspring were dwarfs.
> 
> 
> 528478[/snapback]
> ​


Sadly indeed! Was it the same mare (s) each year he was bred too? My understanding of producing a dwarf is that it takes a gene from each parent?

Beth


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## Cronewolf (Dec 25, 2005)

NO! NOT EVER!! NEVER!!!!!!!!!!


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Dec 25, 2005)

NO, never -would I breed a stallion that has produced even one dwarf, and the same goes with mares..I will not rebred a mare if I know she has produced a dwarf either. It takes a gene from each parent to produce the dwarf, but if I know that one HAS the gene..I would definitely TRY to stay away from breeding that particular one. I know some people do breed there stallions, and "only produce a dwarf or two" but to me, I just coldnt take the heartbreak of having a badly deformed dwarf. I have never produced a dwarf but Ido know it could happen someday, and I am so thankful that research is finally being done on dwarfism. Maybe in the near future some of our questions will be able to be answered more clearly. Sadly, alot of people dont recoginize dwarf characteristics when there foals are born, and when confronted about it refuse to admit they have produced a dwarf, or if a dwarf is born hide the fact that there stallions or mares have produced a dwarf. Corinne


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## hhpminis (Dec 25, 2005)

> I think the biggest problem is minimal expression dwarfs. People dont see the dwarf traits and breed them. KayKay I think you are very right and this is a huge contributor to the problem. I just feel very strongly that we, as breeders of this day, are more aware and therefore have the responsibiity to try to stop this.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Lauralee (Dec 25, 2005)

I agree with kaykay's post.....and believe that ALL bloodlines of miniature horses can produce dwarves. I also feel that some individuals have more of a tendency to produce dwarves and should be eliminated from the gene pool, when this is discovered. Kaykays post hit the nail right on the head.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 25, 2005)

Wel I must also say that there is some who believe (talking reseachers here) that it doesnt ALWAYS take one gene from each parent and that there are cases where one parent is responsible for the dwarfism. IN fact that was a study that started but ran out of funding.

They were interested in Sadie cause... her sire in his first foal crop which was the one Sadie was born in had SEVERAL dwarves that year- to mares who had never had them before the precentage of dwarves he threw that year was scary and this was a AMHA Res Nat. Halter champion and a cute little horse.

Sadly his owner is opting to still breed him to this day and denies the dwarves were out of her stallion - since they CANNOT be registered with Dwarf stamped on them there is no way to show that yes he was the sire. I am not talking about showing to the world I am talking about showing to an owner who is in deep denial. SHe bought the stallion before any of his foals hit the ground so neither seller no buyer knew and now she chooses to believe it isnt true.


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## horsehug (Dec 25, 2005)

Just to add a little different perspective to this thread, I thought I'd post the opinion of Tony Greaves of Little America Minis. We have had so many new members to the forum since he first posted it and since I reposted it also with his permission.

As a preface, I'd like to say that in my opinion, Tony has more experience than almost any breeder I know of and has been a mentor to me, always willing to answer my questions honestly and share his VAST experience with me. I have called on his expertise and gotten to know him partly because I share his passion for the tiny ones and respect him and his breeding program. I was lucky enough to get to visit his beautiful farm 6 years ago, and it is SOOO obvious that, while his farm is his livelihood, it is also his passion and he loves his horses and his work with all his heart.

I also feel that IF it were ever discovered or let out that some of the true greats of our breed, and I am sure you can all think of several that you consider the true greats, had produced a dwarf (and there is that very real possibility/probablility that it has happened) ....... and with the effect we know these great ones have had on our breed.......... I wonder if so many would be so quick to say that they should never have been bred again. With the stigma that it is obvious to me is STILL attached to knowing a horse can produce a dwarf, it would not surprise me at all if it was once again hidden or denied more like in the past. And I think that is sad.

Here is what Tony said 4 years ago and told me I was free to share again.

Susan O.


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## Hosscrazy (Dec 25, 2005)

Susan:

Thank you for posting your thoughts, and also sharing Tony's post with us. This is definitely something I want to print and save.

Liz R.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 25, 2005)

No Never. Speaking as a Miniature Horse breeder with NO dwarf genetic in any of her breeding animals, one strike and out for ANY animals, however good, what ever it's bloodlines, that produced a dwarf for me- it would have to be a bought in line, anyway, but, No, no second chances. Sorry, not a road I care to go down.

And I am not at all sure it does take two to tango, in this case.


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## hhpminis (Dec 25, 2005)

Thank you for posting Tonys reply from back when. I do very much respect Tony's dedication to the breed. He has probably had more foaling experience than any of us on the forum. He has taken those chances and for the most part has had great success. As he admits himself there has been some mishaps. Those breeders who can handle the heart break of a mishap, my hats go off to you as without you the breed would not be where it is. This goes for line breeding, LWO or any other borderline ground that people have taken.

Also, as Tony said, he would not breed the 2 that had a dwarf together again.

I recall the post just a few weeks ago about the horribly deformed foal that Tony had. This was the result of a combination he has had great success with in the past, several times. Was it genetic? environmental? Who knows. One thing that raises the chance of dwarfs in humans is age in parents. Could this be the case? Again who knows.

All I can answer for is myself. I am so emotional about my horses that I really cannot handle the heartbreak of even taking the chance, so I remain resolved to my original answer that no, I would not breed a known producer of a dwarf.

Heck I even felt sick after going and seeing King Kong as I felt so sorry for how this computer generated animal was being treated.


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## Southern_Heart (Dec 25, 2005)

I have read all the post and I still say: Not only NO!!! But heck no!!! No second chances! Sorry!

JMHO

Joyce


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## Knighthawke (Dec 25, 2005)

I will say I have really enjoyed reading everyones responce and insight on this.

Thanks again.

Barb


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 25, 2005)

Well I think another thing to think of and the answer will be different for everyone is what percentage is to much for you. NO matter if you have 100 foals a year, 10 foals a year or 5 foals a year..if it is common place for dwarves to be born on your farm .. at what point do you re-evaluate what you are doing?

LIke I said for some it may be they accept 2 percent or 5 percent or whatever.. some higher some 0 but for me when I look at it as a percentage rate or a common occerance in a breeding program to me.. that is something I look at differently but again that is just me and the answer is different of course for everyone.


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## tagalong (Dec 25, 2005)

_*sigh*_

So many of you who have posted so adamantly about NOT using a stallion or mare that could produce a dwarf - are probably doing _exactly_ that. With so many breeding lines going back to "foundation" sires that WERE absolute dwarves... your chances of only having horses that do _not _carry the gene - are very small. Let's be generous here - and say only 60% of minis today carry the dwarf gene - among them many of the stallions and mares we all consistently drool over. You may not know - until there is a cross - and the 25% chance within that cross - that produces a dwarf that actually lives to be foaled out.

If it only took ONE parent - then we would see more dwarfs. Thank goodness it takes a _combination_...


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 25, 2005)

tag...

I will say there are many forms that do take 2 parents but am a firm beliver along with those that started the research project it can easily be just one.

I also dont think everyone or well I am saying I wouldnt breed someone who might be a carrier due to lines from grandsire or grandam or great grand sire ect..

I think most are talking about a horse that you have seen or witnessed proudce a dwarf and continuing to breed THAT Horse not talking about the other 100 + that may or may not continue to be a part of that pedigree by half sibling or sibling or whateever

I guess for me the question si where do you draw the line.. at what point do you say enough is enough or do you just keep accepting it as the breeds dirty little secret and accept the numbers of dwarves born every year?

and to be honest I dont even know where I am myself with that answer


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## hhpminis (Dec 25, 2005)

Sorry to disagree but, the subject was not if the horse carried the gene, as we all know breeding horses with dwarf characteristics was done a lot in early breeding of miniature horses, I like to think without full knowledge of the consequences, but nevertheless it was far from uncommon. Therefore, you are correct, many of our breeding stock could carry this gene, chromosome, mutation, whatever it is that causes dwarfism.

The original question posed was _would you breed a horse that was a known producer of dwarves._

I do believe that the more your horse sires or foals without any dwarf characteristics the better your chance of your horse being not a carrier.

I am sorry to keep posting on this. I am not trying to be argumentative or to dominate the thread. It is just something I feel very passionate about.

I am enjoying everybody's input.


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## Sue_C. (Dec 25, 2005)

*sigh*So many of you who have posted so adamantly about NOT using a stallion or mare that could produce a dwarf - are probably doing exactly that.



> Ahhh NO, that isn't the _point_...the point _is_...should our horses produce one...would we rebreed them. (Or in this case, breed to the stallion who HAS produced one.)
> 
> As for those who do, willingly, take the chance; KNOWING they are passing on this gene...I still opt NOT to. If a stallion or mare has produced a dwarf, even those who cannot agree it takes two carriers...are you willing to take the chance that is so? I will not, and that is my choice. For me, it would definately be a very expensive road to travel, as I only have a few horses, and not a lot of money. It isn't easy to just up-n-buy-another QUALITY mare and stallion, so it is definately something that I pray I never have to deal with.
> 
> As I already said...I don't care how many championships a horse has, it is not entering my breeding shed if I know it is a dwarf producer. Of what use to our breed is _another_ dwarf producing champion get from this sire or dam??


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## bluerogue (Dec 25, 2005)

I have to agree with Annette. Not only that, but there can be other reasons a horse produces a dwarf. Many insecticides have been proven to adversely affect pregnancies, as well as fertility. Some plants can do the same thing (but most horse people remove dangerous plants from the reach of their horses). Not to mention some medicines and de-wormers, and such things can also cause a bad reaction in pregnancy (and fertility too). Age is a factor also, as the eggs of a mare get older (as she gets older- mares do not produce eggs, they are born with a finite supply). And if a stallion has not been bred for a while, and then is bred once, and the mare conceives, there is a bigger chance the foal will not be "perfect", due to the old, dead, and any malformed sperm that are sitting in his testes. There are a great many reasons a foal can be born a dwarf or with other problems, and sometimes it is not fair to blame the parents (sometimes it is, but sometimes it's not). Sorry, I went off on a tangent. Can you tell I was a biology major for quite some time, and am now an environmental studies major? This is something I find very interesting, so any thoughts on this would be very appreciated. To keep this thread as pure as posssible, unless other people also want to here your thoughts, please PM me about it.

Edited for spelling... you'd think after this long in school I'd be able to spell by now......


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## Sue_C. (Dec 25, 2005)

I am well aware that there are other reasons for dwarfism than genes...but if I suspected it were enviromental, I would certainly have a necropsy done. Also, the causes are _generally_ known, such as fertilizers, or other envionmental poisons that one would know about. A case in point, is there was a farmer in our area which had five deformed calves born to his herd just last year... It was found that he had put his animals onto a field before the correct period of time had past, after spraying.

My Vet and I have talked in depth about this issue, and he agrees with me, and is willing to spay my mares, should the need arise.


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## bluerogue (Dec 25, 2005)

I was in NO WAY whatsoever saying anything to you in particular, Sue C. I was just talking in generalities. I don't know your history with dwarves, have you had several? It sounds from your post as if you have (and this is not an accusation in any way... I am just curious). If you have, did you find any environmental issues had any impact on your breeding? (This last question I open to anyone who has had a dwarf. As an environmental scientist, and as a mini owner, I find the possibility interesting, and worthy of study). I in no way meant to cause you any pain or suffering, Sue. I just wanted to say there are other reasons dwarves can be produced. It is something that can happen, and should be kept in mind. I didn't mean anything else by it. And here I shall follow Annette's lead, and bow out, and not post on this topic anymore. I shall, however, read any reponses. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my post. It was not meant to be offensive at all.


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## Marion (Dec 25, 2005)

I agree with Tony that once a pair has had a dwarf one should not breed them together again. If the stallion and mare do not produce dwarfs with other horses then should they be out of a program. However, if they produce with other horses then yes they should be pulled from the breeding program.


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## Sue_C. (Dec 25, 2005)

> I was in NO WAY whatsoever saying anything to you in particular, Sue C. I was just talking in generalities.







That's the problem with "puter-talk". If we were talking face to face...you'd see I knew that...I was just making the point that I, (as I am sure most are) aware of that fact.



> I don't know your history with dwarves, have you had several? It sounds from your post as if you have (and this is not an accusation in any way... I am just curious).


No, we have never had any dwarves born to our horses here on our little farm, but I feel very passionate that I do what I feel best for the breed, should we ever.



> And here I shall follow Annette's lead, and bow out, and not post on this topic anymore. I shall, however, read any reponses. I am sorry if I offended anyone with my post. It was not meant to be offensive at all.


Goodness NO!! We NEED to talk about this subject. It has to be discussed IMHO, and this isn't a _heated_ discussion...actually, one of the least heated on the subject so far. Speaking only for myself of course; but simply because I am sure of my personal opinion, I don't get angry because someone else has another.

As far as environmental issues, and dwarfism goes, that is a different cuppa tea, altogether, isn't it?? Are there not tests for those causes. Tell us, please.


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## ThreeCFarm (Dec 25, 2005)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> tag...
> I also dont think everyone or well I am saying I wouldnt breed someone who might be a carrier due to lines from grandsire or grandam or great grand sire ect..
> 
> I think most are talking about a horse that you have seen or witnessed proudce a dwarf and continuing to breed THAT Horse not talking about the other 100 + that may or may not continue to be a part of that pedigree by half sibling or sibling or whateever
> ...


Thank you, Lisa! Just because someone says they won't breed a dwarf producer, doesn't mean they will rule out every horse with those bloodlines, as I said in my original response on this thread. You have no way of knowing EXACTLY which horse has passed the genes on from that far back. However, you know EXACTLY which horses produced the dwarf "you" have. PLEASE NOTE: I'm using "you" in italics, not meaning any specific person, just in general.


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## bluerogue (Dec 25, 2005)

Thanks, Sue. I was kind of worried I had upset you. I just wanted to point out that all dwarves are not the result of genetic mutation, or a "dwarf" gene. There are several different types of dwarves, and as such, there are probably several different types of "dwarf" genes. With all of these things, there are quite a few ways a dwarf can come into being. Until we can accurately identify all of these different avenues of dwarf production, well, they will just keep on being born. We can, of course, lessen the incidence of their births somewhat, but until we have accurate tests to identify carriers of all the genes, there's not a whole bunch we can do. Not only that, but there will always be cases of spontaneous genetic mutation which could result in a dwarf, or an animal that has problems that resemble dwarfism. And you are right... most forms of environmental toxicity can be identified. But sadly, sometimes it can only be done in a necropsy. And by the time the problem becomes known, the damage has already been done. For most of the poisons that cause these problems do not have antidotes. Or you wouldn't be able to give them to the victim in time, because you didn't know they were exposed. Toxicity problems are squirrely, as they affect some people, horses, animals (take your pick!) differently than it would even a full sibling of the affected member. Not only that, but what catches one member of a herd, might miss the member standing right next to him/her. This is why insecticides are so dangerous. It takes such a small amount to do such major damage. And some metabolize extremely quickly. By the time you could get a vet out to take a blood sample, the poison has already changed form, and cannot be identified. That doesn't apply to everything, of course, but to an amazing amount of compounds it does. This is why it is so important to make absolutely SURE your mares are not exposed to any kind of toxin in the first trimestor. The majority of the basic foal development happens then, and any form of even ever so slightly dangerous foreign compound introduced to the mare can cause catastrophic damage. The farther along the mare gets, the less the damger becomes. Of course, I would not recommend testing how much you could get away with in the last two trimestors, but it is less dangerous. The threat of dwarfism is not the only thing that can happen to these foals. One of my friends had a mare have a gorgeous little black and white colt this year, whom she lost at about a month of age, due to major kidney malformations. His kidneys never did develop the way they should have. We do not know why it happened. I think her mare got exposed to something at some point in her pregnancy. She had oh, gosh, somewhere around 15-20 other foals, none of whom were affected with any type of kidney problems, or anything else, unless you count the one colt who caught rotavirus (he's doing very well, and is on her show string for this next year). There are so many things that can be traced back to environmental causes, if people would take the time to track them down. It's astonishing the cases of accidental poisoning that occur simply because people don't pay attention to how long the field should remain fallow after fertilizing or spraying pesticide. Some of those fertilizers and pesticides will enter a horses system simply by the horse walking in the grass (route of entry is the frog, the sole, and the skin right above the coronary band). Not even to mention if the horse should actually eat the grass. Horrible, horrible stuff. And yet we continue to use it because it has the desired end results of better growing, healthy, insect free grass. I am sensitive to pesticides in particular, and let me tell you, it is highly uncomfortable to even smell the stuff. Forget about even getting any on me. It's just nasty stuff, and it should always be kept as far away as possible from any animals, but especially from pregnant mares, or mares who are to be bred in the near future (and I mean in the next couple of months from the exposure). I would not be surprised if half or more of the dwarves born in any given year were the result of exposure to fertilizers and pesticides. They are much more dangerous than many people realize, or even think about. I do not intend to offend anyone with this post. I do realize some of my comments could be termed radical by some people. Please understand they are my opinion, and only that. You are very free to disregard anything I say, and I will not be offended. My intentions are not to start a heated discussion, or make people angry. I simply want to inform people of other causes to some very important problems. If by my posting this I have saved one horse from being injured by an accidental exposure to some thought to be non-dangerous compound, this post will have done it's duty.

Edited to add: Holy Cow! Sorry about the book. I promise to try to limit myself to the pertinent points in the future. Sorry about so long of a post!


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## horsehug (Dec 25, 2005)

Jennifer,

I am very glad you wrote so much. I learned a lot from it and it was very informative!

Susan O.


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## runamuk (Dec 26, 2005)

Actually with so little known about the causes of dwarfism in horses I still say you need to know all the facts surrounding the birth of a dwarf.

I wonder if it was Buckeroo or BOB, or Zorro, or Nighthawk who was the stallion in question....how many might not be so quick to to geld?


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## horsehug (Dec 26, 2005)

> Actually with so little known about the causes of dwarfism in horses I still say you need to know all the facts surrounding the birth of a dwarf.
> I wonder if it was Buckeroo or BOB, or Zorro, or Nighthawk who was the stallion in question....how many might not be so quick to to geld?


Runamuk, I couldn't agree more!

I have seen many times in my life when people say they would do one thing (honestly believing it) about a situation that has never happened to them "yet"...... and when it does and they face reality they have a change of heart.

I'm not saying everyone would, but some would I am sure!

Susan O.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 26, 2005)

runamuk said:


> Actually with so little known about the causes of dwarfism in horses I still say you need to know all the facts surrounding the birth of a dwarf.
> I wonder if it was Buckeroo or BOB, or Zorro, or Nighthawk who was the stallion in question....how many might not be so quick to to geld?
> 
> 
> ...



While I somewhat agree I also think the bottom line facts are.. us ignoring or justifying the issue wth continued breeding is not making it any better. While there may be some other things that contribute to dwarfism i would venture to say they arent a huge percentage.

I just think I wonder where other breeds would be.. if they ignored the genetic issues in there own breed and justfied breeding known carriers.

There are some nice stallions both no and past..however I have yet to see ONE stallion i can truly say the breed would or could not continue without.

Again I dont have the answers but just something I think about.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 26, 2005)

Well I have to say I agree with Tony's point of view here. First off there is not enough research yet with dwarfism in miniature horses that give us the definite answers as to what actually causes dwarfism. If you study dwarfism in humans or read about it there are MANY different reasons why this can occur. It can be anyting from "spontaneous mutations" such as chromosone mutation to a multitude of other reasons such as already mentioned here, environmental triggers, etc. Now if I had a stallion and a mare that produced a dwarf mini I would not attempt to re-breed these two together BUT not knowing what actually caused the dwarfism in the offspring I would not necessarily jump to the conclusion that both had the "dwarfism gene". Actually can anyone give a factual explanation as to what exactly is meant by "dwarfism gene" and what it is? Is there really such a thing or is it much more complex than we know or think at this point.



> Some syndromes are caused by genetic mutations at the moment of conception. Other syndromes are caused by the random combination of two recessive genes that may have been dormant for generations.



Take the example of the "bird flu" at the moment. Some in asian countries have come down it and even died from it and all we hear lately is that we are heading for a pandemic that is going to kill millions of people should this mutate and be able to jump from human to human. It hasn't happened yet but does that mean that all poultry, ducks, etc. etc. be killed and that we never eat chicken again? Seems pretty drastic to me when we don't have all the facts and yet some are crying "the sky is falling, the sky is falling".


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## tagalong (Dec 27, 2005)

_*shrug*_

Once again - I say many of you probably ARE breeding carriers - and do not know it - yet. And yet are loud and proud to declare they would never do such a thing! _You simply do not know._ That mare who aborted early may have had a dwarf. That baby that died after birth may have been one. As was pointed out - if BOB or Buckeroo or Double Destiny or many of the stallions that are constantly drooled over had produced one or two in the course of their breeding career - I very much doubt that many of you would be sticking to your guns.... .

In a past discussion I pointed out a certain "historical stallion" - not the ones who are usually mentioned - that I saw in person - who was _beyond a shadow of a doubt_ - *a dwarf *- although not so severely expressed. I saw him up close and personal. NO DOUBT ABOUT IT. And yet I was shouted down on this board for daring to say so. His pictures even hint at it - but I was told I was wrong - no way - that horse was in THIS farm's lines and THAT farm's lines blahblahblah. People look the other way. Said horse is also probably in most of your pedigrees... alongside the Bond and Dell Tera sires who were_ known _to be dwarfs.



> I just think I wonder where other breeds would be.. if they ignored the genetic issues in there own breed and justfied breeding known carriers.


For many years - other breeds did just that.

HYPP in Quarter Horses. Have you ever seen a HYPP attack/seizure? It is terrifying... but long after it was suspected that the Impressive bloodline was at fault - the breeding continued.

Arabians carrying SCID... also of concern.... and of course LWO. Also epitheliogenesis in Saddlebreds and Belgians....

Fortunately - the markers for these diseases have been identified.

For those who feel that only ONE parent is responsible for a dwarf foal... then why are there not more of them, if that is the case?? Then there would not have to be a special set of genetic circumstances... and they could show up freely.

I would expect this is genetic in minis _most_ of the time - as we have the evidence to prove that dwarfism was made part of the breeding programs...

Stallions such as this in most of our pedigrees... Bond Tiny Tim.











As well as others perhaps not so severely obvious...


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 27, 2005)

The following may be of interest to this debate and brings about another point of view of mine.

This is in regards to dwarfism in Friesian horses and the findings.

http://www.friesianhorses.com.au/healthdwarfism.htm


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 27, 2005)

Tagalong, I agree with you 2000 percent. You are sooo correct in your statements in your post!!!


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## capall beag (Dec 27, 2005)

I have read this whole thread and think at the end of the day if only breeders where HONEST, individuals could make good decisions.

You cannot make an informed decision if you don't have the facts.

I think it is very underhanded to sell or breed an animal and not be upfront about their get good and bad.

Honesty goes a long way!!!!!!!


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## Tabitha (Dec 27, 2005)

I am another that would not breed any horse that has produced a dwarf. I do not believe that dwarfism is present in every Mini. Even a dwarf stallion such as Bond Tiny Tim will not IMO pass the dwarf gene on to every one of his foals; roughly 25% of them should be free of his dwarf gene. So it's entirely possible that there are Bond Tiny Tim descendants that cannot pass on dwarfism to their offspring....while I don't have Bond Tiny Tim in any of my horses, there is a horse or two back in two of my pedigrees that I suspect may have been a minimal dwarf--or at least carried one copy of the dwarf gene.

Regardless of what has been done in the past (knowingly using dwarves for breeding), that's no excuse to continue using dwarf producers for breeding now. While it's true that any one of us may be breeding a horse that does carry dwarfism....in my case, if the gene is in my herd, it hasn't shown up yet. I can assure you that if I do have a dwarf born here, both parents will be taken out of the breeding pool, never to be bred again--not to each other, & not to any other horse. Of course we can't stop breeding every horse just because any horse "might" carry dwarfism....but it's an entirely different thing once a horse is a known dwarf producer. And no, I don't care how gorgeous the horse might be, how many wonderful offspring he/she may already have on the ground, how many big show awards he/she may have won, how "big name" he/she may be--regardless if it's a national champion with a big name or a little backyard bred horse, if it produces a dwarf, it is finished as a breeding animal here.

Research to date indicates that in horses a dwarf must inherit a dwarfism gene from each parent; it is not like dwarfism in people, where the dwarfism is linked to a gene mutation that can just 'happen' to anyone. While outside toxins may cause a few cases of what appears to be dwarfism, I personally believe that most dwarfism in Minis is genetic. Therefore, my answer to the question--would I use a known dwarf producer for breeding?--is an emphatic NO!


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## Knighthawke (Dec 27, 2005)

I did want to say this. I went to a mini sale about 2 yrs ago. A very well known mini breeder has a stallion that is very hard to miss when you see him, he is easy to recognize. Well that breeder had a little dwarf at the sale it was a spitting image of her stallion. It was not revealed who the sire was but alot of people even said that looks like _____ stallion. I know that person is still breeding him and and he is still producing lots of AMHA championship stock and the offspring still bring very high prices.

There was even offspring from the stallion in questions at the sale and they still brought high prices.


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 27, 2005)

I believe there is some confusion about the difference between genuine genetic dwarfism, and physical abberations that *might* be caused by environmental factors-and that while it may be possible that environmental factors(of varying kinds)*might* cause physical deformities, it is my considered opinion that seldom, if ever, would such deformities manifest themselves in the same ways as true dwarfism, and it should be quite possible to recognize one from the other!

Tabitha(along with others) is well-spoken in her post--however, I would have to disagree with her evaluation of the 'odds' of the offspring of Bond Tiny Tim having the dwarf gene/being dwarves themselves! Because of the nature of the pairing of recessive genes (Mendelian genetics), ALL offspring of a genetic dwarf WOULD at least be CARRIERS of one copy of the dwarf gene-and if ANY of the horses the dwarf was bred to was itself a CARRIER-that is, had one copy of the gene for dwarfism-then the offspring of those particular two would ALL be either CARRIERS or themselves be dwarves-period. This would be true no matter which 'direction' the breeding went-that is, whether the genetic dwarf were the sire OR the dam - however, it is the STALLION who can have more of an overall effect on progeny, because a stallion may sire numerous offspring in a year, while a mare(at least, until embryo transplant gets established....



)can produce only ONE in a year!!

The further 'away' from the original use of a genetic dwarf for breeding you get-i.e., grandget, great-grandget, and so on down the line-the 'lesser' the likelihood of a high percentage of CARRIERS in the bloodline- theoretically(and realistically, too, I feel sure.) THIS is why there is no need to 'throw out' EVERY individual of any given bloodline because back when, someone used a genetic dwarf ancestor for breeding. Because we do NOT have a way to test for CARRIERS, it IS something of a 'crap shoot' EVERY TIME two miniature horses are bred to each other; currently, the only way to KNOW pretty certainly that a horse is a CARRIER is when a dwarf is the result of a breeding-because this points to both sire AND dam being CARRIERS. THIS, to me, is reason enough, in and of itself, to NOT continue to breed those particular two individuals again, to ANY other horse. Our breed SERIOUSLY needs the research to be able to begin to identify carriers; similar serious genetic problems have (albeit after a lot of shameful foot-dragging...)been 'managed' in at least a couple of other breeds(AQHA, and by extension, their outcross breeds, and Arabians); the same should surely be possible in our breed.

(Those of you who have been here awhile know that I HAVE had a dwarf born here, and that I HAVE 'put my money where my mouth is', losing a sizable investment in the process--MY choice, and MY action-and I would do it again. )

I do NOT believe that removing known dwarf producers from the breeding pool would decimate the breed-nor do I think that it would completely eliminate the occurance of dwarves within the miniature breed-certainly not soon-as there are a number of unknown CARRIERS still 'out there'-AND, there is still the possibility of point mutations. I DO think it is the proper action to take.

(How many breeders do YOU know that volunteer that 'this' sire and/or 'that' dam have produced a dwarf??)


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 27, 2005)

tagalong said:


> _*shrug*_
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree but at some point instead of saying well every horse has the gene.. it is just the way it is just accept it... they did something about it-

Again I am not saying where I stand on the subject as to be honest I am not sure I am saying though that.. just brushing it under the rug and accepting it for sure isnt the answer

and yes if buckeroo or BOB or anyone else threw a dwarf my statement would be the exact same I dont beleive there is a horse that this breed would no longer be able to continue if no longer in the breeding gene pool

not now not in the future- doesnt mean there havent been those who have surely left there mark though

I think though this breed isnt making strides to find out or do research simply for one reason fear. Fear that there horses may no longer be marketable , they will lose money ect. really to me it would be just being able to make better breeding choices.

Instead as a breed we are researching donor mares, AI and such when to me anyway this is pretty much at the top of the list JMO


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## HGFarm (Dec 27, 2005)

I would never breed to a horse that produced dwarfs... and if he were mine, he would be gelded already so it would never happen again. JMO


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## runamuk (Dec 27, 2005)

Tabitha said:


> Research to date indicates that in horses a dwarf must inherit a dwarfism gene from each parent; it is not like dwarfism in people, where the dwarfism is linked to a gene mutation that can just 'happen' to anyone.  While outside toxins may cause a few cases of what appears to be dwarfism, I personally believe that most dwarfism in Minis is genetic.  Therefore, my answer to the question--would I use a known dwarf producer for breeding?--is an emphatic NO!
> 
> 529878[/snapback]
> ​


I dont believe enough research has been done to date to make this claim. In humans there are now over 200 different forms of dwarfism documented. I will again bring up the fact that dwarfism is used to reduce size in certain breeds of rabbits and without dwarfism they would never get as small ats they do. Dwarfism also plays a role in several breeds of dogs and cats where specific dwarf traits have become breed traits. I also still have not been convinced due to a lack of good research, that there is a size cut off where dwarfism is required. People will then post pics of all their well conformed tinies....I didn't say they might not be well conformed but they very well may still be relying on dwarfism to become that small. Research people what we need is real research and to start documenting all dwarves and their pedigrees........until this is done we are all guessing.


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## tagalong (Dec 27, 2005)

Tabitha said:


> Â  Even a dwarf stallion such as Bond Tiny Tim will not IMO pass the dwarf gene on to every one of his foals; roughly 25% of them should be free of his dwarf gene.
> Research to date indicates that in horses a dwarf must inherit a dwarfism gene from each parent


*Tabitha* - you sort of contradicted yourself there... as *Margo C-T* pointed out, a full blown (and severely messed up) dwarf like Tiny Tim (and look at those poor babies) would pass on a dwarf gene to EVERY offspring... the only factor that would thus determine whether the foal was a dwarf or simply a carrier would be the genetics _the mare _contributed.

I stand by my comment that many of you ARE breeding horses that carry the gene... and just do not know it. When so many dwarfs were part of a breed that had a limited gene pool to start with, saying NOT ME! NOT ME! is like sticking your head in the sand. One large breeder has _repeatedly_ made the ridiculous claim that they have _never_ had a dwarf born... uh huh. Right. Out of hundreds and hundreds of horses - to never have had a dwarf? How stupid do we look? Very few believe that spin... and yet again I guarantee you that those lines run in many - of not most - of your pedigrees...


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## SunQuest (Dec 27, 2005)

Daniel, Thanks for posting that link. It is one that I have read before and fully agree with.

In 2004 I faced the exact situation of gelding my stallion because he may have produced a dwarf. I had a foal born with paralasys and while waiting for the vet to arrive I had to face the "what if" seriously. My first thoughts were "My gosh... I have a dwarf." My second thought was, and I told the vet on the phone BEFORE he arrived, "If that foal is a dwarf, I want the stallion immediately gelded before you leave." Then my third thought was "I am not sure about what to do with the mare as she is my favorite in build and attitude out of the whole herd, but I will most likely cull her from the breeding pool as well."

Honestly, I lean towards what the Freisian breeders are doing. Geld ALL stallions that ever produce a dwarf the FIRST time they produce one, no matter who they are or how famous they are. Then seriously evaluate the mare and ask if there is anything that is making the mare superior that will add to the breed and decide from there.

As for the big names of the past, we are paying for the errors of their ways now. But we can still correct it if we are honest about it as breeders and dilligent in trying to stop the trait from being passed on. Lets face the facts some, a mare may have 15 to 20 foals in her life, a stallion can produce 25 to 50 a year. If you wish to decrease the occurence of dwarfism, getting the stallions out of the gene pool that are KNOWN producers of dwarves will actually help to decrease the chances of the trait being passed on irregardless of the fact that it could be a single inherited gene or a double inherited gene. Any decrease in the occurances is a positive.

And I agree, there is not enough research on this. More needs to be done, but at the same time, we as breeders can not wait for the research to fix this when we can influence this ourselves by culling inferior stallions that are known producers. (I would consider defining a known producer as any stallion that has produced 2 dwarves from different mares just because it is not totally proven if it is one parent or two that contribute. But, in my opinion, it takes 2 genes, so for my personal situation I feel that it only takes one dwarf to make a horse a known producer of dwarves.)

So to answer the original question on the first post, NO I would NOT use a stallion in which I knew was a known producer of dwarves, and I would most likely not use a mare that has produced a dwarf either. Been there to have to make that decision, and I know for sure what it would be.


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## Tabitha (Dec 27, 2005)

tag--SORRY, pardon me, I was posting quickly in between pails of water & yes, I did sort of contradict myself. I mixed up full blown dwarves & a horse carrying the dwarf gene, so sorry. But, as someone pointed out afterward, the more generations that pass after the full blown dwarf, the better the chances that the dwarf gene has been "lost" in many of the current horses. Using a dwarf in the past is still no excuse for using a known dwarf producer now.



> ... many of you ARE breeding horses that carry the gene... and just do not know it.


 There are also people who believe that all Minis carry the dwarf gene. To my way of thinking, these are both very lame excuses for anyone continuing to breed *known *dwarf producers, mares or stallions. 
I admit that gelding any stallion that sires a dwarf & spaying any mare that produces a dwarf is far from the ideal way to eliminate dwarfism from the breed, but until there is a genetic test that can say 100% for sure that a specific horse does or does not carry a dwarf gene, culling any & all known dwarf producers is still the best control we have. Sure, maybe we all have some horses that "could" produce a dwarf, but until one of those horses does produce a dwarf...we don't know that it will. I still believe that not "ALL" Miniatures can produce a dwarf.

While I know that you can't always tell by a horse's appearance if he does or doesn't carry a dwarf gene...I do have a certain criteria of conformation traits I will not accept in a breeding animal. There are some things which I believe do indicate there is a dwarf gene present--and some big, old time breeders have pointed out some of these same things to me--and those traits I simply will not take a chance on.


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## justjinx (Dec 27, 2005)

Tabitha--i would love to get to know these traits. Would you list them? I know a few but i am sure there are many i do not know. thanks so much!

jennifer


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## painthorselover (Dec 27, 2005)

hi everyone

i know a girl her name is holy justice.she has 5 black and white stallions.i bred my poppy girl to 1 of them.and she came out with a beautiful and adorable colt.he was brown white and black.i called him Scout.he was adorable.so if anyone wants to breed their minis to 1 of them and i will let you know more.you can pm me .painthorselover.

thanks katherine


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 27, 2005)

Just for starters we are dealing with at least two totally distinct forms of dwarfism (maybe more but two _known_ for sure- Brachiocephalic- cute, big "peardrop" head, short neck, short back. And then there is Achondroplastic- hideous, ugly head, long back, short legs often missing the long bone in the rear leg (not actually, sorry, that is a visual description)

Now, bear in mind that, for all we know , the two distinct forms (and the many others we have not identified) may be inherited differently.

And it may be /is possible for a horse to have/carry/exhibit all/both forms.

It may also be possible for the horse to show minimal evidence of one form whilst "carrying" the other.

There is also the fact that, to my knowledge, dwarfism does not reduce size. Not without the animal being a dwarf.

For example, technically, I am a dwarf.

My Parents were under average height.

My paternal Grandmother was tiny- smaller than me.

Her family were small.

HOWEVER this is smallness, NOT dwarfism.

It carries no deformities, no birthing problems (all my family have had natural births)

If I had had children by another, very small person, I could expect a percentage (SORRY, no use at percentages!!) of my children to be small.

Depending on the size of my partners parents and grandparents.

What I could NOT expect is a dwarf child, unless there was dwarfism in the family tree.

Were my partner a "Dwarf" caused by a Dwarf gene, this situation would not be so.

I do not believe the smallness of a horse has anything to do with Dwarfism, Rabbit weighs in at 28" with NO Dwarf gene at all.

And passes it on to all his offspring (ie he reduces size in all cases)

Were the smallness of the horse to do with a Dwarf characteristic- ie a big horse with disproportionately short legs I might tend to disagree, but in most cases even the tiny horses I have seen on the Forum have only a slightly too large head ( a trait that almost all Minis have), and no other dwarf characteristics at all.


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## hhpminis (Dec 27, 2005)

Tag

I dont think anyone is denying that we as breeders could possibly have a stallion or mare that carries the gene. Unfortunately the only way, at this time, to know for sure if you have one is for it to produce one. This is the question posed, would we, once we know, breed a horse that produces dwarves.

If we want to continue producing foals that could carry this gene then the answer is sure, why not, it only happens 1 out of 10 and the others are great! The farther away from those ancestors that we know carried this gene we are, the greater the chance that our stock does not carry the gene. If in fact we discontinue using the stock we find that do then eventually we can rid the breed of this plague.

The article on Freesians that someone provided a link to was wonderful and very much how I think we as responsible breeders can deal with a known problem.

Many have made very good points especially the latter pages of this topic.

A story, sorry it is long...

I bought a mare that I showed for a year before I bred her. She was a multiple supreme halter horse, everybody commented on her beauty. When I finally bred her she produced beautiful foals. I had the first one and she was absolutely breathtaking. I rebred her and the second was an odd birth, it was as if she just dropped the whole thing in one lump without even a sign she was delivering. It too was a beautiful colt, unfortuately it did not make it out of the sack and died. Awful experience, but off topic. At this time I had sold the filly and she was still a really nice yearling, showed well as a yearling. I rebred the mare and she had a very malformed foal, I almost put it down but she is the type of mare that wants to be a mom so bad and the previous year had mourned for days and my husband and I just could not bear to put her through it and the foal seemed to be improving by the hour. The foal did improve to the point that we assumed that he must have laid in an awkward position in the womb and just needed to "straighten out". He was gelded and sold. Someone approached me on buying the mare that year and I sold her. They wanted her right away and I sent her and the foal to their place. I was very honest about her foaling history and they decided they wanted to breed her anyway, I was going to retire her. Lo and behold, the next year she had a full blown dwarf. She and the foal were given to a non breeding home where they both could be loved and be pasture ornaments for the rest of their life. By this time the first foal was 3 yrs of age. Although I would not call her a dwarf, she was no longer the pretty little yearling she had been. She had gotten coarse and really not pretty at all. Hind sight being foresight, I am not sure I would have realized it any sooner but it was like a brick hitting me in the face when she had that dwarf. I was heartbroken and felt extremely guilty for the pain I had caused this mare for not.

I want never to have that feeling again, and no I will not breed a known producer of dwarves. At this time, this is the only method we have of controlling the "issue". Until a better one comes along this is the method I will use and I really hope others will take it seriously enough to do something. It may not be my exact solution, but at least if the horse has 1, 2, 3, whatever each person considers the magic number of proof, consider it a problem and have the dedication to the betterment of the breed to do something about it and remove the horse from the gene pool.

Sorry this was so long, didn't mean to write a book.


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## Songcatcher (Dec 27, 2005)

Margo_C-T said:


> I believe there is some confusion about the difference between genuine genetic dwarfism, and physical abberations that *might* be caused by environmental factors.....  Tabitha(along with others) is well-spoken in her post--however, I would have to disagree with her evaluation of the 'odds' of the offspring of Bond Tiny Tim having the dwarf gene/being dwarves themselves! Because of the nature of the pairing of recessive genes (Mendelian genetics), ALL offspring of a genetic dwarf WOULD at least be CARRIERS of one copy of the dwarf gene-and if ANY of the horses the dwarf was bred to was itself a CARRIER-that is, had one copy of the gene for dwarfism-then the offspring of those particular two would ALL be either CARRIERS or themselves be dwarves-period. This would be true no matter which 'direction' the breeding went-that is, whether the genetic dwarf were the sire OR the dam .....
> 
> Because we do NOT have a way to test for CARRIERS, it IS something of a 'crap shoot' EVERY TIME two miniature horses are bred to each other; currently, the only way to KNOW pretty certainly that a horse is a CARRIER is when a dwarf is the result of a breeding-because this points to both sire AND dam being CARRIERS....
> 
> ...


I want to say first of all that I really appreciate this thread and the civility that has been demonstrated. Secondly, I want to say that I have no answers (that shouldn't surprize anyone), just some thoughts.

I agree that this is a very complicated issue. If it it does require both parents to be carriers of a dwarf gene to produce a dwarf foal, the dwarf is essentially homozygous for the dwarf gene. Two carriers should have a 25% chance of producing a dwarf, just as breeding two LWO carriers would result in a 25% chance of a lethal white foal. By the same token, breeding two obvious dwarfs together should produce 100% dwarfs. I don't know if that has ever been tried and certainly DON'T recommend it, but it would make for interesting research (at an extremely high price to those animals involved).


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## Tammie-C_Spots (Dec 27, 2005)

horsehug said:


> Just to add a little different perspective to this thread, I thought I'd post the opinion of Tony Greaves of Little America Minis. We have had so many new members to the forum since he first posted it and since I reposted it also with his permission. As a preface, I'd like to say that in my opinion, Tony has more experience than almost any breeder I know of and has been a mentor to me, always willing to answer my questions honestly and share his VAST experience with me. I have called on his expertise and gotten to know him partly because I share his passion for the tiny ones and respect him and his breeding program.  I was lucky enough to get to visit his beautiful farm 6 years ago, and it is SOOO obvious that, while his farm is his livelihood, it is also his passion and he loves his horses and his work with all his heart.
> 
> I also feel that IF it were ever discovered or let out that some of the true greats of our breed, and I am sure you can all think of several that you consider the true greats,  had produced a dwarf  (and there is that very real possibility/probablility that it has happened) ....... and with the effect we know these great ones have had on our breed.......... I wonder if so many would be so quick to say that they should never have been bred again.  With the stigma that it is obvious to me is STILL attached to knowing a horse can produce a dwarf,  it would not surprise me at all if it was once again hidden or denied more like in the past.  And I think that is sad.
> 
> ...


I remember that discussion and Tony's reply. I have to say I agree. I would not rebreed two horses together that produced a dwarf. I would not take them out of the breeding pool unless the dwarf production was many with all different mates. I would however make buyers aware that a dwarf had been sired by or produced by one of my horses if a dwarf had been produced (none of my current horses have).

Tammie


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## shminifancier (Dec 27, 2005)

I agree 100% with you the way you said things.. Yuppers.







> I agree. I would not rebreed two horses together that produced a dwarf. I would not take them out of the breeding pool unless the dwarf production was many with all different mates. I would however make buyers aware that a dwarf had been sired by or produced by one of my horses if a dwarf had been produced


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## runamuk (Dec 27, 2005)

OK here goes.....I have been posting this for years and I tend to make the breeders of really small one angry but oh well

Dwarf traits I would intentionally select for in my rabbits in order to meet breed standard..

Smallest possible stature (under 3 lbs)

rounded bulbous head

prominent eyes

tiny ears

small limbs

Charactersitics to be avoided

malocclusion....overshot or undershot or generally bad bite

cowhocks

weak hip/narrow pelvis

long back

Having spent much time breeding my champion buck who had the neccesary dwarf characteristics I know for a fact that the dwarf gene was needed to keep my size within the breed standard for showing.......

I still say in horses as in humans and rabbits there is a size that also is considered dwarf and is an effect of dwarfism even if it is the only apparent effect...but again without research we will never know what that is.......

And again I ask if we wiped out the dwarfism and that meant all mini's were now 35 inches ...well where would that leave us?


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## Sue_C. (Dec 27, 2005)

> And again I ask if we wiped out the dwarfism and that meant all mini's were now 35 inches ...well where would that leave us?


A *CLEAN SLATE* from which to start again, with more knowlege of what we are doing...








As for not wanting to irradicate known dwarf producers because of all the get "great" they might produce...there is always another horse, just as good...or better. (Obviously better, IMHO, if it doesn't produce dwarves.)


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## runamuk (Dec 27, 2005)

Sue_C. said:


> > And again I ask if we wiped out the dwarfism and that meant all mini's were now 35 inches ...well where would that leave us?
> 
> 
> A *CLEAN SLATE* from which to start again, with more knowlege of what we are doing...
> ...


OK but if no dwarfism means nothing smaller than 35 inches is that still okey dokey?


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## hhpminis (Dec 27, 2005)

If 35" is what it meant then yes that is perfectly Okie Dokie with me, but I truly do not feel that is what it would mean.

I think we have many many fine horses out there 34 and under that carry no dwarf genes or characteristics. In all honesty only time will tell, and then only in all honesty. LOL OK so that is a play on words.

Runamuk, I totally understand what you are saying about the dwarf characteristics you are talking about in your rabbits. These are not life hindering tendencies that make the rabbits life miserable and difficult. You also mentioned the non desirable dwarf characteristics. If in fact dwarfism (I am not sure that is a word) only meant smaller than I donâ€™t have a problem with it. But I and I think everybody is talking about the characteristics that deform and cause skeletal and health issues and are a detriment to the animal for its entire life how ever short it may be.


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## runamuk (Dec 27, 2005)

I understand that most people when discussing this topic immediately picture full blown dwarfs...believe me even in rabbits it happens we call them peanuts normally they are born dead or do not survive long. What I am referring to is dwarfism as more a set of genes and if you only get part of that set then you have things like extreme heads tiny ears, or extra small size, not the whole package just parts of which some of these parts have become part and parcel of the definition of a miniature horse...in fact some of these traits are prized by many breeders......just something I have noted in my research....several of the breeds with recorded dwarfism all have a goal or requirement of an EXTREME typey head (arabs, welsh come to mind) lets see stifle issues...commom in arabs, and miniatures to the point of being noted as common even by vets........or how about testicle issues? It is interesting that in arabs and welsh and miniatures it is not considered uncommon for testicles to descend late or for crypt to happen with a fair amount of frequency.........and yes I love all 3 of these breeds and have been deeply involved with them for years and I am not saying we should ignore the problems......in fact I wish more people would get involved in open discussion of bloodlines/known dwarves/and dwarf characteristics.....but sadly everyone still seems to want to cover it up or point fingers away rather than take a good look at their own horses and truly look for these characteristics.



hhpminis said:


> If 35" is what it meant then yes that is perfectly Okie Dokie with me, but I truly do not feel that is what it would mean.I think we have many many fine horses out there 34 and under that carry no dwarf genes or characteristics.  In all honesty only time will tell, and then only in all honesty. LOL OK so that is a play on words.
> 
> Runamuk, I totally understand what you are saying about the dwarf characteristics you are talking about in your rabbits.  These are not life hindering tendencies that make the rabbits life miserable and difficult.  You also mentioned the non desirable dwarf characteristics.  If in fact dwarfism (I am not sure that is a word) only meant smaller than I donâ€™t have a problem with it.  But I and I think everybody is talking about the characteristics that deform and cause skeletal and health issues and are a detriment to the animal for its entire life how ever short it may be.
> 
> ...


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## Little Bit (Dec 27, 2005)

[SIZE=12pt]Well, after reading ALL 9 pages of this thread, I have to say I am a bit weary,



but very glad to hear that the majority of people say they would NOT breed to, or breed a known dwarf producer!( mare or stallion)



[/SIZE]

I do think that is our only course of action at this point in time. I do not know why anyone would knowingly breed a known dwarf producer, mare or stallion, other than greed, or stupidity!

I believe that EDUCATION is a very important thing when breeding Miniature Horses or any other animal. Many people do not even know that dwarfism in the Miniature Horse exists! And I too believe that many people are breeding horses with dwarf characteristics, and don't even realize it, which is very sad to me.





Most people know that I have a BIG soft spot in my heart for the dwarf minis, and that I have adopted 7 over the last 10 years and that I still have 6, I lost my beloved Little Bit 2 1/2 years ago.



My dwarves are my pride and joy, and it just *REALLY* makes me cringe when I hear people describing dwarf minis as "hideous" or "unsightly"!!!!



My dwarf minis are the most beautiful little horses in the world to me. It also upsets me when people say that dwarf minis are suffering or in pain. Yes, some dwarf minis can be so deformed that the only humane thing to do for them is to euthanize them at birth, but there are SO many other dwarf minis that can live a good healthy, happy life with just some extra care, whether it be the use of the *Magic Shoes* to help them walk better, or keeping them out of a herd of Miniatures where they are mistreated, or being put on a joint supplement at an early age. Yes, dwarf minis are a HUGE commitment and I certainly do not recommend them for everyone, but they do deserve a chance at a good life, just as children who are not "perfect" in our eyes!





Here is the address for the article I wrote on "Dwarfism In The Miniature Horse",

http://www.angelfire.com/ms3/dmh/

and here is an article that John Eberth wrote; perhaps this will help explain the technical aspects of dwarfism in the Miniature Horse.





Genetics

John Eberth

To begin I will start with what is known that is 100% true and scientifically accurate and correct.

There are many different phenotypes of dwarfism, which means there are many different types of dwarfs that have different problems and physical abnormalities.

That being said, there are obviously many different mutations in different genes causing these different dwarf types.

With that you need to consider which type(s) is/are the most prevalent and each sample of each type being identical in its abnormalities to be consistent in it phenotype.

OK, now the most prevalent type I have seen and documented is a type that is very similar to cattle dwarfism, which shows symptoms and phenotypes consistent with a human type of dwarfism called achondroplasia. This type of dwarfism in humans by chance (or maybe not) is also the most prevalent type of dwarfism in humans as well.

Now in order to be an achondroplasic dwarf in humans you must have one parent that is an achondroplasic dwarf or be an achondroplasic person born by two normal parents from a spontaneous mutation in a bone growth gene, I will spare you the specifics, but this type of dwarfism is called a dominant genotype, which means that if you have even only one copy of the gene you show the disease, so a human with Dd heterozygous genotype is a dwarf, dd is a normal person, and DD is a homozygous genotype dwarf, which is worse than Dd.

Now for miniature horses it is different, a dwarf of achondroplasic characteristics, is born to two parents that look like normal horses. This is what is called a recessive genotype, which means you can have the mutated gene and not show the disease. This means that a horse that looks normal can carry a mutated gene recessively and not show the disease characteristics, or phenotype. So, in order for a dwarf to be born, both horses, sire AND dam MUST carry the gene to produce a dwarf. THIS IS A FACT for a recessive disease gene to show its phenotype, both the sire and dam are carriers of the diseased gene, and BOTH passed their copy of that diseased gene to the foal that shows the phenotype of the disease. So it takes both the sire and dam to make a dwarf.

Now the statistical calculations are not complicated but in order for simplicity I will tell you that if two horses, that are carriers of the recessive diseased gene are mated, you have a 25% chance of the foal being a dwarf. Now those calculations are based on the total number of potential offspring that both of the horses could produce in a lifetime from the billions of sperm and millions of eggs that could be used to reproduce within the approx. 25 years of reproductive viability of the mare and stallion. So you need to put things in statistical context if you can.

I know of stallions that have never produced a dwarf, I know mares that have never produced a dwarf, I know stallions that didn't produce a dwarf for 10 years then bam, I know mares that didn't produce a dwarf for 10 or more years then bam, so it needs to be put into statistical context. I hope you can understand what I am trying to say.

I know stallions that have a dwarf every year, I know mares that have had 2 or 3 dwarfs, so try to see the mathematical picture if you can. You are playing Russian Roulette.

I do believe a large portion of miniatures are carriers of a type of dwarf gene, remember there are many types. But I know for statistical fact that there are mares and stallions that do not carry any type of dwarf gene, now I know more stallions than mares and that is because of numbers and those numbers used to calculate statistical significance for gene carriers. Now if we are talking about achondroplasia then I can give you better numbers. It would be ludicrous for me to speculate total breed percentages because of the bad label any horse gets from producing a dwarf, so many people lie about if a horse has produced one or not, so it could be a very large number or it could be smaller than any of us think. But what I know that exists in all the bloodlines somewhere, I would think the percentage will be greater than 25%- 50% for achondroplasia, that does not count the other types of dwarfism I KNOW exist and are more rare, so the total percentage of horses that are carriers of some type of dwarfism is going to be high.

There has been some research done, pretty much all done by UC Davis Genetics Lab and University of Kentucky Equine Genetics Lab. Both have preliminary information but there is nothing that I know of as of now that is anything other than speculative and no formal articles or definitive results. This is because of lack of public funding from AMHA or any other donator. There are no science articles per say that are from any peer review journals that have been written on this disease in our breed so you won't find any scientific info either. The sample "dwarfs" used by UC Davis were very limited and I do not know how many different types of dwarfism there were of the samples they have, I do know there were many different types I saw them. The same is the case for UK, however, in my research I have collected more samples than both schools combined and of the same phenotype. I know these things because of my internship on dwarfism at UC Davis under the late Dr. Ann Bowlingin 1994, and my own graduate studies at UK. Understand that there are many different types of dwarfism and/or skeletal bone growth abnormalities. So you cannot put all "dwarfs" in the same category. The different phenotypes seen means there are different mutations in different genes, so it is quite complicated. I have done some work in this area at UK for my graduate studies, and at the time, I took over what UK had done to try and get somewhere.

My research is privately funded by me, so it is taking much more time than normal. I am not doing this as an ego trip, but on the contrary, my business and my life has been in this breed, so that said, I am looking to better the breed not for me, but for it as a whole. This has nothing to do with bloodlines or farm names, but of breeding a better horse, and making it easier for everyone to do so. Because believe me, there are lots of horses of all bloodlines that are carriers, but there are some statistically that are definitely not carriers, so it is just a matter of time and money to find the mutated gene and develop a marker for a test for it.

I do strongly feel that a horse that is a recessive carrier still be able to be registered and used for breeding. My reasons are simple, one is that I know many extremely good quality specimens of miniatures that for all purposes is of great genotype and phenotype quality desired in this breed but that are also recessive carriers, second that there are other horse breeds that have diseases that are tested for and those horses that test as carriers still can be registered and bred, one example is HYPP in quarter horses. I do feel that if and when a test is designed that all miniatures must be tested and designated on there papers if they are a carrier and obviously if a horse is tested and comes back as a dwarf and not just a carrier then there will be absolutely no reason for dwarfs to be able to still get registered in our breed registry, like what is going on right now. The third reason I have, is that when two carriers are bred you only have a 25% chance of producing a dwarf, interestingly you also have a 25% chance of producing a foal that is homozygous normal or the ability to produce foals 100% of the time that are normal even if that foal is later bred to carriers, so there is a lot there to be used for the betterment of the breed if people would just learn some basic things about genetic inheritance, and they are very basic.

To also answer another question about inheritance. For the achondroplasia type of dwarfism I commonly see in miniatures, it is right now thought of as a disease that is inherited as an autosomal recessive trait, which means to show the disease the foal ABSOLUTELY HAS TO HAVE EACH COPY OF THE GENE COME FORM BOTH PARENTS. Now the only way you can get a dwarf foal and that foal to have only one copy of the gene and show the characteristics is if the disease is inherited as an autosomal dominant, which means one of the parents would be a dwarf. If you have a mutated gene that causes a disease and that mutated gene is DOMINANT over the normal gene, then you only need one copy of the mutated gene to show the disease. Now, the ALL the dwarfisms in the miniatures that I have seen are the results of dwarfs from normal parents, meaning this is a recessive mutated gene, and it takes two to show the disease, this is NOT a dominant disease where it only takes one copy to show, if it did all carriers would be dwarfs, do you follow.

Now if someone bred a miniature dwarf to a normal horse the foal would be normal UNLESS the normal parent was actually a carrier then the foal has a 50% chance of being a dwarf.

What you are asking about when a horse that looks normal but has some slight characteristics that look like a dwarf, i.e., extremely dished head, is that does that horse carry the recessive dwarf gene. Well, I am going to give you an answer that has not been scientifically proven in the case of the miniature horse but other similar instances like this that have been scientifically proven to occur. What I am about to tell you involves very complicated dominant and recessive gene interactions and there is really no way I will be able to fully explain this unless I had diagrams to show you what happens. There are some terms for what you see in miniatures, they are called penetrance and expressivity of recessive genes that become co-expressed or over-expressed with its counterpart dominant gene. These terms generalize what is actually a very complicated biochemical interaction between regulator genes of those genes that now are co-expressed. Just so you know there are actually anywhere from a handful to dozens of regulator genes that regulate the expression or productivity of a single gene or genes that produce either a structural characteristic or a protein that is involved in the life support of the body. In simple terms, your eye color is the light bulb that is on, there are a multitude of genes that make that eye color appear in your eye just like there are a multitude of switches and fuses that allow that light bulb to turn on.

So what is going on in the miniature is that those horses that have characteristics that might be slightly like a dwarf means that that horse most likely is carrying the dwarf gene recessively, however because there is penetrance or expressivity occurring you are seeing that recessive gene being co-expressed with the dominant normal gene. No, this has not been proven scientifically as fact in the miniatures, but the same type of thing occurs in every organism known to man at some point and time with any number of dominant and recessive genes. I will give you a basic example. In certain flowers that have the red color gene as a dominant color gene, and the white color gene as a recessive gene, there occurs in some strains that are carrying both genes that the color of the flower to be pink. Now do not get fictional here, the red and white do not combine and fade the color out. On the cellular level, the color cells on the flower's petals, actually are red cells and white cells of approx. equal numbers, causing the pink color. Now, technically this is called co-dominance of the color genes, however, the white is a generally is a recessive color gene in flowers, but because of penetrance and expressivity of the recessive gene being co-expressed with the dominant gene you get to see both causing a different color.

So what I am saying is that in my professional opinion, the horses that are showing slight dwarf characteristics but overall are normal looking, they most likely are carriers of the recessive dwarf gene with penetrance expressivity. So in my opinion those miniatures showing some penetrance of certain characteristics of the dwarf gene are just as good as one that is just a carrier, HOWEVER, AND IT IS A BIG HOWEVER , I would NOT AT ALL breed a horse with a monkey mouth, or a short neck, and I SURE would not breed a horse that had a bad mouth, short neck AND an extremely dished head, all in one horse, that could very well be an actual dwarf, just a really good one that is functionally better than most. Just like there are "tall" dwarfs in humans!!!!! REMEMBER a monkey mouth is an undesirable inferior characteristic, it actually can be in and of itself a separate genetic defect from the dwarf characteristics, because it is seen in large horse breeds that obviously are not carriers of the dwarf gene. The short neck is an inferior trait as well, the dished head is really one person's opinion since you see Arabians and their heads and you know we all are breeding for an Arabian type head, so there will be varying opinions on if that is an inferior trait due to dwarf gene or is it an actual sound gene that is producing a dished head.?? We don't know!!! AN extreme head I would question, and it will probably obvious if I saw it if I thought it was actually from the penetrance of the dwarf gene. I do not feel that these extreme headed horses are any worse than a carrier that "shows no dwarf characteristics," AND genetically there are not. BUT, if you want to get technical here, the miniature is a dwarf pony, but has conformation that is physiologically and biomechanically sound, and has conformation that falls within correct basic horse conformation standards,ie correct bite, straight legs. Remember there is no test and some things are personal opinions.


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## Chamomile (Dec 28, 2005)

I stand by my word that if I had a stallion that produced a dwarf, I would geld him, and not re-breed the mare. I did do that in my breeding program. If that means that I have my head in the sand, then I guess I do, but at least I know that I am doing my best to be a responsible breeder. I am a small time breeder and don't produce enough foals every year to risk having a dwarf, let alone what the poor mare and foal go through. I've witnessed it and just couldn't bring myself to do that on purpose ever again! Edited to add: I absolutely LOVED my little dwarf. He was an Angel. It was so heartbreaking to lose him that I wouldn't want to put myself and the mare through it again.

I'm wondering, if it's an "okay" thing to breed a stallion that has produced dwarves, why is it such a hush hush thing? Why don't the big breeders broadcast that the stallion has produced dwarves? In my opinion, if it's such a hush hush thing, there is a reason for it! Just my opinion!


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## runamuk (Dec 28, 2005)

Little bit thanks for posting that and I hope everyone reads it I mean truly reads it.......


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## horsehug (Dec 28, 2005)

Just for some background....... I would just like to say that the info by John Eberth was originally written to me in a series of emails in response to questions I asked him about his research on dwarfism.

I did ask his permission to share it with others and to allow it to be made into an article and webpage. I quoted him word for word.

If you notice in this quote, John does state that in his opinion, carriers should be allowed to be bred and his reasons.



> I do strongly feel that a horse that is a recessive carrier still be able to be registered and used for breeding. My reasons are simple, one is that I know many extremely good quality specimens of miniatures that for all purposes is of great genotype and phenotype quality desired in this breed but that are also recessive carriers, second that there are other horse breeds that have diseases that are tested for and those horses that test as carriers still can be registered and bred, one example is HYPP in quarter horses. I do feel that if and when a test is designed that all miniatures must be tested and designated on there papers if they are a carrier and obviously if a horse is tested and comes back as a dwarf and not just a carrier then there will be absolutely no reason for dwarfs to be able to still get registered in our breed registry, like what is going on right now. The third reason I have, is that when two carriers are bred you only have a 25% chance of producing a dwarf, interestingly you also have a 25% chance of producing a foal that is homozygous normal or the ability to produce foals 100% of the time that are normal even if that foal is later bred to carriers, so there is a lot there to be used for the betterment of the breed if people would just learn some basic things about genetic inheritance, and they are very basic.



Susan O.


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Dec 28, 2005)

Little Bit said:


> ... I believe that EDUCATION is a very important thing when breeding Miniature Horses or any other animal. Many people do not even know that dwarfism in the Miniature Horse exists! And I too believe that many people are breeding horses with dwarf characteristics, and don't even realize it, which is very sad to me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 


Little Bit, I very much enjoyed your post. Even sadder is some are breeding horses with dwarf characteristics and DO realize it. 





 


I remember your Little Bit with great fondness and anyone who could call these special ones hideous is without conscience--the only thing I can do is consider the source of those comments and dismiss it.


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## hhpminis (Dec 28, 2005)

Thank you Little Bit that was very interesting.

Runamuk I did read it word for word. I think I realize what you are trying to say and actually I dont feel that my perspective is oh so different from yours. Let me try to explain better.

I know there are a lot of carriers out there. The only ones we can be sure of are those that have actually produced a dwarf. I also agree that there are many types of dwarf genes and many different manifestations of such genes. Like you and John have said, not all of them have produced bad effects, i.e. dished faces, tiny ears, etc. These characteristics are often stamped by line breeding and making that recessive character a dominant so to speak by creating a pool of animals that carry only the recessive gene. This can be good or it can be bad. When I make my statements I am under the assumption that everybody is inside my head and understanding the gears that are turning and are going to understand the words that come out of this thought. LOL When I refer to dwarf and producers of dwarves, I am of course referring to those that cause skeletal, as well as internal problems for the poor receiver of such genes.

I still have to say that I would not knowingly continue to breed an animal that had produced such undesireable characteristics.

Again, I am enjoying the civility, thought and knowledge that has been going on with this thread. Thanks to all participants.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 28, 2005)

Removing all horses with a dwarf gene from the breeding pool, over a certain number of years, would not result in horses over 35"- why would you think that?? I am still not convinced in any way that dwarfism causes height reduction- I think all it produces is Dwarfs- minimal and otherwise.

My whole herd is Dwarf free- over twenty five years over line and in breeding and not a single dwarf foal, hand on heart!!

Not one of my animals is over 33" by _our_ measurement- which makes them all around 30-31" by your standards, Rabbit is the same more or less, by each method as he is usually too fat for it to make a difference and being old style he has low withers it made him around 261/2" in his youth, when he was slim and fit!!!

There is no Dwarf genetic in my herd.

I do not have over 35" horses.

It can be done.

Perhaps we should be doing the exporting in the other direction!!!!


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## GREENWOODMINIS (Dec 28, 2005)

Janell...I want to tell to you what an amazing Woman I think you are. The Love you have for these special horses touchs my heart. You are indeed a gift from God...down here helping these little ones. Gods work the most important ever!

When looking at your little ones...I only see beautiful little happy faces!!!

God Bless YOU,

Lisa


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## Whitestar (Dec 28, 2005)

If it becomes a "rule" that dwarf producers are no longer allowed in the gene pool, or if it in any way becomes a mark against a mini that produces one, then you can be sure that you will not hear about many dwarves being born. Suddenly the mini world will "look" cleaner. Why? frankly folks because there will be many many breeders that will start making sure that no one knows if their horse stallion or mare has produced one. The dwarf foals will not make it past their first day. You can be sure that if a top producing stallion or even one at a smaller farm produces one that will surely end his career as a breeding stallion, then some people will make sure that you dont know about it. Doesnt mean that it didnt happen...or wont happen again in the future, but because this subject is such a touchy one, with no real scientific proof as to the cause, & it has become more of a stigma against its parents with different opinions from many many people, then you will find that many of them will be disappearing. Frankly, if a top producing stallion that has produced many top producing offspring does pop one out & the rule is in place, what happens to all the offspring? What happens if you have thousands of dollars in the offspring, have produced normal foals at your home, yet its sire has popped out a dwarf? Should your mare or stallion then be taken out of breeding, because it carries the gene? Should its foals also be taken out of the gene pool? How many generations back will it effect? And it can be effected at any time as long as a horse is breeding, even a stallion that is 20 years old can sire a dwarf, think of how many generation of offspring already out there breeding this will effect? And as others have stated, some foals start out normal, & begin to show signs of dwarfism as they mature, so how are you to know? Just something to think about.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 28, 2005)

Whitestar.. I agree with you however that is no different then it is today I dont see big farms openly talking about THERE dwarves born on there farm or anything like that. It is and will continue to be a dirty little secret until a test is found and then... it cant be anymore


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## SunQuest (Dec 28, 2005)

Whitestar said:


> Frankly, if a top producing stallion that has produced many top producing offspring does pop one out & the rule is in place, what happens to all the offspring? What happens if you have thousands of dollars in the offspring, have produced normal foals at your home, yet its sire has popped out a dwarf? Should your mare or stallion then be taken out of breeding, because it carries the gene? Should its foals also be taken out of the gene pool? How many generations back will it effect? And it can be effected at any time as long as a horse is breeding, even a stallion that is 20 years old can sire a dwarf, think of how many generation of offspring already out there breeding this will effect?


But statistically, if a horse produces a dwarf and is not homozygous for that gene, then it will also have the same chance at producing a horse that is not a carrier of that gene. From a recesive gene that both parents are heterozygous for you have the following:

25% of inheriting a double recessive (full blown dwarf)

50% of inheriting a single recessive (dwarf gene carrier)

25% chance of not inheriting the recessive (clear of the dwarf gene)

So, if you eliminate the parents, you should still let the offspring breed as long as they are not a dwarf or as long as they don't produce a dwarf. In this way you start to cut down the number of dwarf carriers. Not allowing dwarf producers to breed should only effect the immediate animal that produced a dwarf as one can't say for sure where the gene came from UNLESS a parent is a full blown dwarf.

But then what about the offspring's market value because their parents produced a dwarf... Well, it is my opinion that ALL of the bloodlines that we treasure have produced dwarves in them. It is the risk that a breeder should understand before they breed. The risk doesn't change from what it is today. It would be no different than it is today when someone knows that such and such famous horse produced a dwarf. And we all know that some of the most famous have produced dwarves, yet they are still being used and the offspring still in demand. This wouldn't change if one started to cull the dwarf producers IMO. The offspring would only increase in value as they carry the genetic traits of the parents but have not been proven to produce dwarves themselves. The key is looking at the individual and questioning what they produce, not looking at the parents and grandparents. Again, statistically, some of the horses would be free from the bad gene(s) that everyone is concerned about.

And like runamuk stated I think there are many different kinds of dwarfism traits. But, in reality we only want to focus on those traits that cause the deformities that are not part of our breed standard.

And the info from Mr. Eberth is very valuable. I thank him for that information and it is a great start to finding answers for the future and what he stated makes huge amounts of sense to me. His writings are the most thought out that I have seen from the miniature horse people, and I apploud his work.

But I do have to disagree with him in one part. Since we don't have a test, and by his way of reasoning not all minis will carry the gene, then we can start to change how much this is being passed on by eliminating some individuals from breeding again once they have been confirmed that they produce dwarves.

And, since the writing of that information, our population and quality of minis has increased by leaps and bounds. Since we have so many miniatures now, and so many really nice horses to choose from, we should not be concerned about the loss of some here or there. I still feel that if we take the approach of the Freisan registery and not allow the stallions to breed that have produced the dwarfs with the worst of the conformation issues, then we would be on the right road to trying to erradicate the worst of the deformities. The key is to remove stallions that are known carriers as they can produce more foals in a single breeding season than a mare can in her whole life. The Freisan registery does just that. They ask one to concider not using a mare that produced a dwarf, but force the stallion to be retired from the breeding shed once it has been proven to be a carrier. Yet they let the offspring continue to breed as those offspring will statistically contain some that are not carriers, and since they are not a dwarf themself, the have a up to a 50% chance of not being a carrier assuming that only one parent was a carrier.

And like Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said (great way to put it Lisa!!), once a test is developed for specific kinds of dwarfism, and once the registeries start to enforce testing, then the "dirty little secret" will not be able to be hidden any longer.


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## RHAMinis (Dec 28, 2005)

Kudos to Tagalong, Margo CT & runamuk. I don't need to do too much typing now



Awesome posts. Also, the quotes from large, long time breeders like Tony & Little King...priceless information.

There are many on here denying any dwarf genetics in their programs. I don't think that claim can be made without a test of every mini in your program, unfortunately a test we don't have right now. Many that are on here that absolutely, positively will not breed a horse that ever produced a

dwarf just don't realize they have it in their own herds. Even lines with known dwarves and known dwarf producers are listed in your signatures. I'm not trying to pick on anyone in particular, it's just something I've noticed while skimming through the posts. It just demonstrates that we all have so much to learn if we are going to be responsible mini breeders and improve the breed.

Lord of the Isles is not a freak occurence in a mini's pedigree, way back there, he is more the typical of what you'd find if you had pics of all minis in your horses' background. It is definitely a shock when you first see it, but hopefully everyone will learn and accept that if you are seriously breeding minis and improving the breed, avoiding producing full dwarves, etc, you must as John Eberth puts it "KNOW WHAT YOU ARE BREEDING". My belief is that all lines include the dwarf gene somewhere, but possibly not every mini.

Lisa, I believe that stallion you are referring to in your posts has produced many foals that could be carriers and many that do not even have one dwarf gene, certainly not almost all dwarves and if he's bred correctly, he may never produce another full dwarf. It seems through his foals he has proven to be a carrier, but not a full dwarf himself. My personal opinion would be that he should never be bred to another mare that is a carrier, because I, personally, am one that would not risk even the 25% chance the pair would have of producing a full dwarf.


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 28, 2005)

With the percentages so high, there is no way I would breed a stallion that has produced a dwarf. What is really sad is how a breeder can put a price of $1,000.00 on a dwarf and some buyer may think that is a horse they can go on to breed because that is a good profit on a dwarf or maybe that it is cute !!!! Just seen one advertised on the sale board a few days ago. I basically agree with what is said below. A lot needs to be done to eliminate the chances of producing dwarfs. Thank you everyone for sharing the info. and giving your opinions. Mary

[but statistically, if a horse produces a dwarf and is not homozygous for that gene, then it will also have the same chance at producing a horse that is not a carrier of that gene. From a recesive gene that both parents are heterozygous for you have the following:

25% of inheriting a double recessive (full blown dwarf)

50% of inheriting a single recessive (dwarf gene carrier)

25% chance of not inheriting the recessive (clear of the dwarf gene)

So, if you eliminate the parents, you should still let the offspring breed as long as they are not a dwarf or as long as they don't produce a dwarf. In this way you start to cut down the number of dwarf carriers. Not allowing dwarf producers to breed should only effect the immediate animal that produced a dwarf as one can't say for sure where the gene came from UNLESS a parent is a full blown dwarf.

But then what about the offspring's market value because their parents produced a dwarf... Well, it is my opinion that ALL of the bloodlines that we treasure have produced dwarves in them. It is the risk that a breeder should understand before they breed. The risk doesn't change from what it is today. It would be no different than it is today when someone knows that such and such famous horse produced a dwarf. And we all know that some of the most famous have produced dwarves, yet they are still being used and the offspring still in demand. This wouldn't change if one started to cull the dwarf producers IMO. The offspring would only increase in value as they carry the genetic traits of the parents but have not been proven to produce dwarves themselves. The key is looking at the individual and questioning what they produce, not looking at the parents and grandparents. Again, statistically, some of the horses would be free from the bad gene(s) that everyone is concerned about.

And like runamuk stated I think there are many different kinds of dwarfism traits. But, in reality we only want to focus on those traits that cause the deformities that are not part of our breed standard.

And the info from Mr. Eberth is very valuable. I thank him for that information and it is a great start to finding answers for the future and what he stated makes huge amounts of sense to me. His writings are the most thought out that I have seen from the miniature horse people, and I apploud his work.

But I do have to disagree with him in one part. Since we don't have a test, and by his way of reasoning not all minis will carry the gene, then we can start to change how much this is being passed on by eliminating some individuals from breeding again once they have been confirmed that they produce dwarves.

And, since the writing of that information, our population and quality of minis has increased by leaps and bounds. Since we have so many miniatures now, and so many really nice horses to choose from, we should not be concerned about the loss of some here or there. I still feel that if we take the approach of the Freisan registery and not allow the stallions to breed that have produced the dwarfs with the worst of the conformation issues, then we would be on the right road to trying to erradicate the worst of the deformities. The key is to remove stallions that are known carriers as they can produce more foals in a single breeding season than a mare can in her whole life. The Freisan registery does just that. They ask one to concider not using a mare that produced a dwarf, but force the stallion to be retired from the breeding shed once it has been proven to be a carrier. Yet they let the offspring continue to breed as those offspring will statistically contain some that are not carriers, and since they are not a dwarf themself, the have a up to a 50% chance of not being a carrier assuming that only one parent was a carrier.

And like Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said (great way to put it Lisa!!), once a test is developed for specific kinds of dwarfism, and once the registeries start to enforce testing, then the "dirty little secret" will not be able to be hidden any longer.

530707[/snapback]
​


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 28, 2005)

I actually think I am the only person claiming to know she has a dwarf free line. Were there a test, of any sort, I would jump at using it to back up what I know to be a reasonable claim. Thus, once a test is evolved, the way to introduce it would not be to make it compulsory but to do it as they did with PQing- make it a mark of good quality that you have proudly tested your stock, dwarf gene free- big gold sticker on registration papers.

It does make you wonder why no-one is willing to put into this REAL problem any real money, when there seems to be endless funds for things that as far as I can see are totally useless at worst and unnecessary at best, such as embryo transplants and AI- neither of which has any real credibility in our world yet.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 28, 2005)

Ok so change it around.. what would you do if it was a mare??? and how many dwarves would a mare need to produce before you decided she should not be bred anymore?

talking bred to differnt stallions

1,2 what would it take for you to take a horse out of your program not being accusatory since no one can hear my tone in writing it is a honest question

that I am curious about...


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 28, 2005)

It would only take one for me and I should have made that clear in my other post. Mary



Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> Ok so change it around.. what would you do if it was a mare??? and how many dwarves would a mare need to produce  before you decided she should not be bred anymore?talking bred to differnt stallions
> 
> 1,2 what would it take for you to take a horse out of your program not being accusatory since no one can hear my tone in writing it is a honest question
> 
> ...


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## hhpminis (Dec 28, 2005)

As rabbit said, I do believe she is the only one who claimed to have a dwarf free breeding program.

Many of us are stating that we would not continue to breed to a horse that has produced a dwarf. The statement that many of us could have a dwarf gene(s) in our herd is absolutely correct. But...until a horse produces a dwarf it is not known that you have it. Are we all playing a bit of Russion roulette? Quite possibly we are.

All we can do until funding is given for in depth research to identify the gene so we could test is to be aware of possible traits and to not be barn blind when breeding our animals. And especially if we do, heaven bless the tiny foal, produce a dwarf, have the wisdom to consider the consequences on a larger scale than our pocket book and reputation to

1) openly admit it

2) be honest with buyers

3) care for the resulting dwarf

4) recognize that both parents probably carry the gene. (I say probably because this is not a 100% for sure statment but a probable assumption on what facts we do have)

5) either pull the stock from the gene pool (my choice) or be extremely careful with ever using them again.


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## RHAMinis (Dec 28, 2005)

> 1) openly admit it2) be honest with buyers
> 
> 3) care for the resulting dwarf
> 
> ...


There you go .... a great checklist of definites.

If I had a horse, stallion or mare, that was not a full dwarf, but kept producing them, I'd have to consider pulling myself from the breeding aspect of minis more importantly than pulling those horses. I'd obviously be breeding without enough knowledge to do so responsibly. Even though the mare and stallion may be carrying the genetics for it, it's certainly the breeders responsibility to avoid breeding dwarfs. I understand it happens unexpectedly some time, but it doesn't seem like there is any reasonable excuse for repeatedly producing dwarves.


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## zacharyfarms (Dec 28, 2005)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I actually think I am the only person claiming to know she has a dwarf free line.Â  Were there a test, of any sort, I would jump at using it to back up what I know to be a reasonable claim.Â  Thus, once a test is evolved, the way to introduce it would not be to make it compulsory but to do it as they did with PQing- make it a mark of good quality that you have proudly tested your stock, dwarf gene free- big gold sticker on registration papers.It does make you wonder why no-one is willing to put into this REAL problem any real money, when there seems to be endless funds for things that as far as I can see are totally useless at worst and unnecessary at best, such as embryo transplants and AI- neither of which has any real credibility in our world yet.
> 
> 530752[/snapback]
> ​


You probably are the only person claiming to know you have a dwarf free line, Jane but without a test unless each of my horses has had a minimum of 10 offspring (which is considered minimum for progeny testing and even that is then not an exact science without a genetic test available) I personally wouldn't make that statement.( also in East Tennessee we "just wouldn't chance saying it...the saying goes don't name it or it will surely happen.) Have I had a dwarf born on my farm to date...No...do I have a recessive dwarf free line.....hopefully but probably doubtful.. because I have lines that go far back. But that does not mean any of my horses were born with that gene and I certainly wouldn't have purchased any with a visible or knowingly that they had a dwarf background...If there was a test to determine if there was a dwarf gene in any of my horses would I have it done......absolutely ......on every horse.. All of my horses have been tested for LWO. So my point here is that just because everyone is not jumping on the " I have a dwarf free herd" bandwagon doesn't mean that everyone is producing dwarves...it might be like me and that they it is just better not to make a statement that cannot be proven and even Jane cannot PROVE that her horses do not carry the dwarf gene although she has never seen it in her 25 years and she certainly should be proud of that fact alone.


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## shminifancier (Dec 28, 2005)

JUDY


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## kaykay (Dec 28, 2005)

the problem with saying you have a dwarf free line is unless you kept every single horse you ever bred and then saw what they threw and on and on well how can you even know?? If you sold horses and then lost contact youll never know that one of yours threw a dwarf. Rabbit i dont know how many you bred and sold in those 25 years but even if it was 5 per year thats a lot of horses to keep track of thru out their lives to know that they never went on to produce a dwarf. And of course if you dont breed many horses your chances lesson of producing a dwarf. Thats just the law of averages. Now im not saying any of your horses produced a dwarf



just pointing out that it would be hard to prove unless you kept every horse you produced.

Another problem is minimal expression dwarfs. there are some that own them that you will NEVER convince them their horse is showing dwarf traits. And i have heard them also exclaim that they never produced a dwarf.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 28, 2005)

The main point here is that I have actually not purchased any mares. I have only just now purchased a stallion with US blood in him, that is the first I have bought- no, I tell a lie, I bought an Appy colt five years ago, but he was Dutch bred and traceable. The UK is a small place, if I had bred a Dwarf, I would know as fifteen people would have been only too glad to point it out before lunchtime. No, I ave not kept every horse I have bred but I am now into my fifth generation of my own bloodlines. Not one Dwarf or an animal with Dwarf characteristics has turned up yet. I am not just lucky. I am careful. I have always been. It was an obvious criteria to me when first I started on this breeding programme, self explanatory, that, had a Dwarf turned up neither the stallion nor the mare would have been bred from again. This is so long ago now I can hardly remember- I do know I never even made a conscious decision about it- it was too obvious!

Now, if you truly believe almost every horse in the US has the possibility of having or carrying the Dwarf genetic, we need to find a test, so we know exactly where we stand, and then we need to take action.

We faced this problem with Dobes and vWD (Haemophilia)- almost every line in the world was "infected" by the time the test was found but, with careful testing and even more careful breeding it is becoming less and less common- it is really only irresponsible "for money" breeders that get Dobes with vWD nowadays, all responsible breeders test.

So...obvious really, if the problem is that bad, we need to find a test for Dwarfism.

I am more than happy to have any and all of my animals , and any I have ever bred, tested.


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## Firefall (Dec 28, 2005)

Just a question, many have said if they got a dwarf they wouldn't breed those same two minis together again which I agree with, and may never breed either one again. But if you only did breed that pair once and got the dwarf how do you know who is the carrier? Assuming that its carried by one parent.

Would you breed the same 2 again BUT to a different mini?


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 28, 2005)

Well i can say i have a dwarf free line as well.. i am sure many breeders can say that I have not produced a dwarf with any of my own breedings.

I did have sadie however I bought the mare bred she wasnt my own breeding so I can say my own breeding for 10 years has not produced a dwarf.. in fact I know many many farms that can say that and some that cant.. still doesnt show there isnt a carrier..

I certainly dont think it is only a US issue.. but that is JMO however... I do think it is an issue that will continue to get worse as long as we justify our actions by saying it takes 2 parents so lets just not breed them to eachother again. I am not saying not breeding them is the answer but I am saying this breed needs to stand up and say please lets put research money where it belongs not donor mares and AI which are great but lets take care of this issue first.

again JMO


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## littlearab (Dec 28, 2005)

I have been reading this thread for days now.

And have not replyed because for the most part I've nothing to add to it. All the info I have read and heard has been posted already.

The ? of would I bred a stallion that has sired a dwarf is very close to home for me.

I had a dwarf born last spring. It was something I was pretty much unperpared for. It is something that happens to "other breeders" I have only been breeding minis for 4 years. I know others who have been breeding for many many years and they have never had a dwarf Or like my vet says, say they have not, they just say the mare lost the foal and put it down.

I had purchused the mare bred, she was only 2 coming 3. She foaled 5 weeks early. And at frist the vet said he was thinking it was just a premie not a dwarf. But as time passed I could easly see that Hobbit was a dwarf.

I did sell the mare told everyone who looked at the the truth as to why I was selling her and said she was not for breeding. So she was sold to hopfully a pet home, but one never knows when they sell a horse where it will end up.

When I knew that Hobbit was a dwarf I really looked for sighs in both parents and saw one or two, in the mare. Little things poor bite(that was not there when I got her, that was now very crooked) and a large head. She has very pretty head, but it is large for her. So I took the advice of my vet and other breeders and kept the stallion.Who has no sighs. He is very nice and has won many halter classes. He shows no sighs of dwarfism. He is very correct in every way.

So I would have to YES to the ? of "Would you bred a stallion that produced a dwarf?"

My vet told me that until they can say for sure that it takes two to produce a dwarf he would keep Ace and use him.He said it's from the mare.

Now that being said, If there is ever another dwarf foal born from this stallion he will be gelded with in days.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 28, 2005)

I think the one thing everyone that has answered this thread- and it is a _very_ controversial issue- has in common is that, without exception, everyone would do what they truly believe to be right for the horse, and for the breed.

I do not think, without a genetic test, we could honestly ask for any more.


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## zacharyfarms (Dec 28, 2005)

Jane, I truly hope that by now the horses in the US have been culled enough (as bad as I hate that word)that there are just not as many horses that are still carriers that we aren't aware of... Now how many that we are aware of that are being used willy nilly is another story. Once there is a test that can be done with DNA then the registries can require it and it can be put on registration certificates..I feel LWO should already be included. However everyone is eager to share when there horse is a LWO gene carrrier because then everyone knows that the horse is one (regardless of how minimal) and can produce the coveted frame overo. One interesting thing to do is look at what actually happens with breeding a dwarf >>When you breed the stallion dwarf who is hypothetically dd (homozygous for the recessive dwarf gene if there really is only one gene involved) and he breeds to a Dd or a DD mare.. and their ultimate foal receives only the d copy from the dwarf (which it will because the dwarf is homozygous for that gene)but not one from the DD or Dd mare then the foal is Dd and that foal breeds to another DD or Dd mare and this foal receives the D copy from the sire and the D copy from the mare...no more dwarfism.... even though the grandfather is a dwarf. However on the other hand, every foal from that grandfather dwarf is a carrier... it is only in the grandchildren that you can rid the line of dwarfism. The problem lies in that with the Dd mare there is a 50% chance of a carrier grandchild being produced and 25% of a dwarf grandchild and only 25% that a non carrier grandchild is produced. With the non carrier mare...the DD mare..there is a 50% chance of the carrier grandchild and a 50% chance of a carrier but no chance of a dwarf. By looking at this though you can see where there may not be as many carriers today as one might think...which is possibly wishful thinking but hopefully not so.


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## hhpminis (Dec 28, 2005)

Yes Judy, you are absolutely right. That was written very nicely.

The farther we get away from that old stock that had obvious dwarf charactersitics the cleaner our breeding stock of today is. With honest and forthright breeders this will just continue to get better.


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## Sue_C. (Dec 28, 2005)

> there are other horse breeds that have diseases that are tested for and those horses that test as carriers still can be registered and bred, one example is HYPP in quarter horses


Yes, that is true, but the operative word here is "tested". For dwarfism, as we know...there is no known test...yet. Added to that, any horses which are HYPP, P/P, are _not_ allowed to be bred.

littlearab, you say you bought the mare already bred...so that wouldn't have anything to do with your stallion, unless you _also_ bought the one she'd been bred to. So he is the same animal?


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## Little Bit (Dec 28, 2005)

[SIZE=12pt]Here is a discussion about dwarfism in the Miniature Horse that a friend of mine had comissioned, you might be interested in reading this as well, I can not remember the name of the lady who wrote this discussion however.



[/SIZE]

http://f6.grp.yahoofs.com/v1/QF-zQ5DqtAbAA...%5B1%5D.doc.rtf

[SIZE=11pt]Editing to add this:[/SIZE]

Sandii Turner at Quarter Moon Farm commissioned the above study, done by Anne Campbell, to further educate clients/buyers and too, to help fellow breeders better understand that not ALL minis carry dwarfism and they shouldn't get locked into that mode of thinking as an "excuse" to keep producing them..we CAN drastically reduce and someday eliminate dwarfism in miniature horses..it just takes character, culling and critical thinking and sometimes an economic loss.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2005)

So is it the Holiday Season - this has to be the calmest discussion about dwarfism I've ever seen! It really is nice to see dwarfism being discussed in a frank and open manner without the accusations and mud slinging of the past!

As for the original question, *would I knowingly breed a stallion that had produced dwarves?* In the plural no, a single dwarf possibly, but again I would have to very carefully consider the breeding in question, parentage on both sides, conformation traits (did/do either parents exhibit any indication of dwarfism), etc.

In the six years we've been breeding minis, we have not had a dwarf from our breeding born. We did have one abort (story below), but have had a few dwarves come to live here with their dams. The dwarves were placed in pet homes, and the mares were sold as non breeding pets.

We did have one year a series of bad births - a dwarf born, a mare died during delivery, a dead foal, and a deformed (severe tendon issues) foal. The common link was the stallion - the only live foal is the dwarf. I didn't own him, and the breeder wouldn't agree there was a 'stallion' problem. He is/was gorgeous and would have been highly competitive as a gelding, but not my horse!

Would I breed to him - not with a ten foot pole! I'm cautious on the whole line of his as I know there are dwarfs back in his bloodline (4-5 generation back or further). I have heard he has been sold as a breeding stallion to someone else - I don't know if he's produced anything or not.

The dwarf that was aborted here at 9 1/2 months was from a stallion (he's sired 17 foals all are fine - I don't own the stallion) and the mare (she's produced 8 foals all fine). The previous year a full sibling was perfect too. The aborted foal had a severe underbite and a really domed/bulby forehead, but otherwise looked conformationally correct considering the age - length of leg, etc.

So does that mean they 'carry' dwarfism genes and should both be removed from all future breeding? Well the stallion I don't own, but the mare was 18 when she had aborted and I have daughters, grand-daughters, and a great grand-daughter (all different daughters/son lines from her) and none have produced dwarves that I'm aware of.

I have not removed this mare from breeding program as there isn't any indication in her pedigree, foaling history or her get's foaling history to indicate she carries a dwarf gene. She may - back to the we don't have a test - but I would assume it was some other cause for the deformities in the foal she aborted. Although this is her last year, she's being retired from breeding on account of her age.

In general, most of my mare herd is vertical in nature (2-4 generations deep so far!), and I try to be very selective on the stallions that come here. I also try to stay in contact with owner/breeders of the same lines too.

Oh and as for dwarfism reducing size - one of our first minis - our gelding, Woody, is a B size mini. His sire produced two dwarves that I know of, and he's still being used for breeding too (as far as I know. One was a minimal, the other obviously a dwarf! We didn't know it at the time, but Woody was slated to be gelded when he was purchased, so it wouldn't have mattered.

In conclusion to my novel, I do believe there is much to learn about dwarfism in minis, and studying other equine breeds as well as other species is helpful. So is the continued study of environmental effects (improper vaccinations, toxins, feed issues, stress, age, etc.).

I've also found most of the readers here on the forum aren't the problem, as in general everyone seems to be conscientious and trying to further their education at all times. It's getting the word out to newbies and others eager to learn that is really important.


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## [email protected] (Dec 29, 2005)

Here is a checklist that I received at the Portland AMHA Show that is used by some of the directors in determining if a horse is a dwarf (hardships, etc.) Sorry for the formatting - it's a MSWord document.

Some Common Phenotypical Characteristics of Dwarfism in Miniature Horses

A Checklist for Miniature Horse Breeders

Check One

None Moderate	Severe 1. Legs do not gow in length (normal bone growth does not occur

and/or occurs unvevely at the epiphyses). Foal may appear â€œcuteâ€ at birth but as head size, body depth, length and width increase with age, the legs do not grow in length. Thus, the adult dwarf appears to have an oversized head and body for its overall height.

None Moderate	Severe 2. Dwarf foals are often born with retracted tendons, club feet and

buck knees that cannont be straighten out at birth. Joint enlargements and joint deviations (epiphyseal growth irregularities) are common. Extreme cow hocks, extremely short gaskins and severe sickle hocks, all with varying degrees of visible â€œjoint loosenessâ€ and/or joint weakness are also common. Premature arthritic processes take place in most dwarfs, resulting in progressive ambulatory disabilities.

None Moderate	Severe 3. Undershot jaw (â€œBulldogâ€ or â€œmonkey biteâ€). The molars,

therefore are also mal-aligned, requiring that the teeth be floated much more frequently than for a normal horse.

None Moderate	Severe 4. One type of dwarf has a large bulging forehead with extreme

dish (convex) face and turned up nose. Overly large and protruding eyes (sometimes placed at uneven angles.) Nostrils placed too high up on the face (brachycephalic). A second type of dwarf has a more normally shaped head and eye but the head is still much to large for its body. This type of dwarf does not usually have an undershot jaw as described in #3.

None Moderate	Severe 5. Head obviously longer than neck (the distance from the poll to

the withers should always be at least 1.1 times the distance from the tip of the nose to the poll. In full size horses, the neck is almost 1.5x longer than the head.) In some dwarfs, the neck is so short that the head appears to come directly out of the shoulders.

None Moderate	Severe 6. Girth depth greater than leg length; enlarged entrails and

genitals. Pot bellies are inevitable.

None Moderate	Severe 7. Scoliosis, kyphosis and/or lordosis (vertebral deviations) are

common.

None Moderate	Severe 8. Often unable to rear or stand on hind legs. Odd tilting

â€˜backwardâ€™ gait, with shoulder markedly higher than croup.

None Moderate	Severe 9. Mental retardation and inactivity/depression (probably due to

pain) are often sequel to the various forms of dwarfism.

The decision of the AMHA Board at its meeting on February 3-4, 1989, was that if a horse exhibited any two of the above characteristics it would not be registered with AMHA. The presence of only one characteristic might prohibit registration depending on the severity.


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## Little Bit (Dec 29, 2005)

[SIZE=12pt]I was thinking about this thread today when I was sitting out in the paddock surrounded by 5 of my precious little dwarves....of course we would NEVER deliberately breed for a dwarf, at least I hope no one would, but when these special little horses are born, many times it is not a "bad" thing. My little horses mean the world to me, and they have brought joy to many other folks as well. Little Tessa visits nursing homes and assisted living facilities every once in awhile, and to see the smiles on these folks' faces when they pet her and when she walks up to them and puts her little chin on their laps...well it just does my heart a world of good!



[/SIZE]

Thank you Shirley for remembering my Little Bit.





I still miss him sompin' awful.





Lisa you wrote:



> When looking at your little ones...I only see beautiful little happy faces!!!God Bless YOU,
> 
> Lisa


Thank you, Hon for all your kind words.





That also made me think today, that there have been 12 pages of posts about dwarfism in the Miniature Horse, and only a couple pictures of Bond Tiny Tim posted.





Little Toy would have been euthanized if I had not said I would take her; what a shame that would have been, she's such a sweet little horse and enjoying her life completely! Toy is an Achondroplasia dwarf. Her dam was 16 years old when she gave birth to Toy, and she was the first dwarf she had ever produced. I think she probably had a foal every year since she was 2 years old. I do not think my friend will breed her again, I hope she doesn't anyway!






Here's my sweet Tessa who just turned 10 years old! I adopted her as a tiny baby.

She just amazes me, and I feel so very lucky to have had her for so long. I hope I will be able to enjoy her for many more years to come!






This is my precious Little Bit when he was 2 years old. He was a Brachycephalic dwarf, he grew to be 20 inches tall.






This is my little Inky, who AMHA registered; he's almost 3 years old now.






This is my little Smidgen on the left and Strawberry that I adopted this spring, Smidgen will soon be 2 and Strawberry will be 4 years old. I think they are wondering if Momma is going to give them some more of the goodies Santa brought them!


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## Tammie-C_Spots (Dec 29, 2005)

But statistically, if a horse produces a dwarf and is not homozygous for that gene, then it will also have the same chance at producing a horse that is not a carrier of that gene. From a recesive gene that both parents are heterozygous for you have the following:

25% of inheriting a double recessive (full blown dwarf)

50% of inheriting a single recessive (dwarf gene carrier)

25% chance of not inheriting the recessive (clear of the dwarf gene)

So, if you eliminate the parents, you should still let the offspring breed as long as they are not a dwarf or as long as they don't produce a dwarf. In this way you start to cut down the number of dwarf carriers. Not allowing dwarf producers to breed should only effect the immediate animal that produced a dwarf as one can't say for sure where the gene came from UNLESS a parent is a full blown dwarf.

But then what about the offspring's market value because their parents produced a dwarf... Well, it is my opinion that ALL of the bloodlines that we treasure have produced dwarves in them. It is the risk that a breeder should understand before they breed. The risk doesn't change from what it is today. It would be no different than it is today when someone knows that such and such famous horse produced a dwarf. And we all know that some of the most famous have produced dwarves, yet they are still being used and the offspring still in demand. This wouldn't change if one started to cull the dwarf producers IMO. The offspring would only increase in value as they carry the genetic traits of the parents but have not been proven to produce dwarves themselves. The key is looking at the individual and questioning what they produce, not looking at the parents and grandparents. Again, statistically, some of the horses would be free from the bad gene(s) that everyone is concerned about.

And like runamuk stated I think there are many different kinds of dwarfism traits. But, in reality we only want to focus on those traits that cause the deformities that are not part of our breed standard.

And the info from Mr. Eberth is very valuable. I thank him for that information and it is a great start to finding answers for the future and what he stated makes huge amounts of sense to me. His writings are the most thought out that I have seen from the miniature horse people, and I apploud his work.

But I do have to disagree with him in one part. Since we don't have a test, and by his way of reasoning not all minis will carry the gene, then we can start to change how much this is being passed on by eliminating some individuals from breeding again once they have been confirmed that they produce dwarves.

And, since the writing of that information, our population and quality of minis has increased by leaps and bounds. Since we have so many miniatures now, and so many really nice horses to choose from, we should not be concerned about the loss of some here or there. I still feel that if we take the approach of the Freisan registery and not allow the stallions to breed that have produced the dwarfs with the worst of the conformation issues, then we would be on the right road to trying to erradicate the worst of the deformities. The key is to remove stallions that are known carriers as they can produce more foals in a single breeding season than a mare can in her whole life. The Freisan registery does just that. They ask one to concider not using a mare that produced a dwarf, but force the stallion to be retired from the breeding shed once it has been proven to be a carrier. Yet they let the offspring continue to breed as those offspring will statistically contain some that are not carriers, and since they are not a dwarf themself, the have a up to a 50% chance of not being a carrier assuming that only one parent was a carrier.

And like Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said (great way to put it Lisa!!), once a test is developed for specific kinds of dwarfism, and once the registeries start to enforce testing, then the "dirty little secret" will not be able to be hidden any longer.

530707[/snapback]
​



IMO that formula wouldn't work because I don't believe that it's just one gene that makes a foal a dwarf. I believe more than one gene is responsible since we see such a range of dwarfism characteristics.

I also agree with Whitestar that if that rule were in effect that you just wouldn't hear about dwarfs being born because it would be kept quiet less it hinder the reputation of a farm or horse....

Tammie


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 29, 2005)

I believe something else needs to be said regarding the breeding of 'carriers'--in Mr. Eberth's treatise, I strongly feel that when he mentions allowing 'carriers' to breed, it surely must be in the context of a situation where, once a genetic test has been developed, THEN the occurance of the undesirable characteristic(s)is MANAGED by rules which specify what crosses can occur. With CID in Arabians, for example, what I have read is that CARRIERS may be bred to NON-CARRIERS, but NOT to other CARRIERS; testing must first be done to determine a breedable horse's status. In this way, although more CARRIERS may well be produced, NO horse that actually HAS the condition is produced. Testing would need to be(and I presume, IS being required) on all offspring of a CARRIER to a NON-CARRIER breeding, with the same requirements going down the line of succeeding generations. Eventually, such techniques of management would have the effect of seriously lessening the occurance of dwarves. Simply 'taking note' of what horses had produced dwarves(and therefore, are presumed to be CARRIERS), and then going ahead with breeding of such horses, is likely to have little, if any, lessening effect on the production of dwarf horses in the miniature horse population. (The experiments with flowers were some of the classic work done by Mendel, if memory serves-fascinating stuff, and a real contribution to an understanding of the inheritance of certain traits, especially at the time.)

I am currently doing a complete run-back on the pedigrees of the horses involved in the single dwarf bred and born here,in the 20 years I was actively breeding miniatures. I already know that the well-documented dwarf, Bond Tiny Tim, is 4 generations back on one side of the sire's pedigree; when I complete it, I will detail it here.

I do not think that implementing rules would change much, as those who would not admit to having produced dwarves, already are in that mode of denial/concealment-so what would be different?

I also find it interesting, but to me, not at all surprising, that on the poll on another thread, when I voted(option one)an hour or so ago, that those who (anonymously) opined that they would go ahead and breed, but to other horses, were nearly double those who would NOT breed either again. Though many of the posts on this thread make me hopeful for 'down the road', for now, I don't think

the bottom line has really changed much. I think many people just do not grasp the concepts of genetics that are BELIEVED TO BE(based on their application in other areas of genetics)to be in operation; I also think some DO understand....


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## Little Bit (Dec 29, 2005)

[SIZE=12pt]We've had one person who read my posts here on this thread, join us on "Little Bit's Forum".




[/SIZE]

I would like to invite anyone who loves animals to come join us as well. Several of the members have dwarf minis, many do not, but we love to share our experiences with anyone who is interested.

We have also put together a 2006 calendar with a collage of pictures of the members and all of their critters. There are pictures that range anywhere from a wallaby to 3 special ducks! The calendars are $10.00, with $4.00 of each calendar going to Little Bit's Help Fund, which is used to help folks who may need a little help to buy the glue for the *Magic Shoes* or any animals that may need to rescued from an abusive or neglected situation.

I have never deleted any of the threads or posts from the last year, so there's plenty of information and some beautiful photo albums to look at as well.





Mary Lou, I just happened to think..... I hope you don't mind me posting about this here on Lil' Beginnings, if so just delete it for me.





The address for Little Bit's forum is in my signature below.


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## runamuk (Dec 29, 2005)

Margo_C-T said:


> I believe something else needs to be said regarding the breeding of 'carriers'--in Mr. Eberth's treatise, I strongly feel that when he mentions allowing 'carriers' to breed, it surely must be in the context of a situation where, once a genetic test has been developed, THEN the occurance of the undesirable characteristic(s)is MANAGED by rules which specify what crosses can occur. With CID in Arabians, for example, what I have read is that CARRIERS may be bred to NON-CARRIERS, but NOT to other CARRIERS; testing must first be done to determine a breedable horse's status. In this way, although more CARRIERS may well be produced, NO horse that actually HAS the condition is produced. Testing would need to be(and I presume, IS being required) on all offspring of a CARRIER to a NON-CARRIER breeding, 531905[/snapback]
> ​


nope you presume wrong......you do not have to test and many still don't until such time as they 1 have a scid foal or 2 are trying to promote a stallion......

I know as my friend breeds arabs and 1/2 arabs and cid testing is not a pre requisite for registering.....

she did lose a foal a 1/2 arab technically the foal was 3/4 and even our vets did not catch on.......after the fact we heard that the mares sire and arab had tested positive ...at which point a light went on so my friend tested her stallion and sure enough so did he....he is slated to lose his nuts in the spring



and he has not bred any mares since that time.........


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 29, 2005)

Whether or not there is a correlation of "sorts" between dwarfism and SCID......SEVERE COMBINED IMMUNODEFICIENCY in Arabians is certainly a mystery. But maybe by reading and understanding something as simple as this it might help people understand the reasons that it is so important to push for the funding to get down to the bottom of the dwarf problem.

About 8-10 years ago there was finally a conclusive test developed to determine whether or not a horse had SCID. Only thru the funding of people in the Industry did this come about. It was to our benefit not to stick our heads in a dark place when it came to this issue.

Breeding Arabians horses on the whole is much different than minis because there is so much more outside breeding.......shipping of cooled and frozen semen. Nobody that has an ounce of sense would breed their mare to a stallion that was not SCID clear. And the same goes for the mares. It's became all about EDUCATING yourself.

Below is information from Vet Gen. Very interesting if you give it a chance and not very complicated. Educating yourself sure stops a lot of heartache when foaling season arrives.



> There is now a definitive test for the Severe Combined Immunodeficiency "SCID" gene in Arabian horses. This test unequivocally determines if an animal is affected, a carrier or clear of the mutant gene. The major and most important implication is that now there is no guesswork in avoiding SCID offspring.
> Since SCID is an autosomal recessive disease, matings between two clear animals as well as matings between a clear and a carrier animal will NEVER produce an affected animal. By definition, carriers of genes for autosomal recessive disorders are completely free of clinical signs of the disease. That is, carriers do not have any negative consequences to their health or performance. If two carriers are mated, there is a 25% chance that the foal will be clear, 50% chance that it will be a carrier and 25% chance that it will be affected, a chance not worth taking. Prior to the advent of molecular genetic testing for autosomal recessive disorders, the only way an animal was identified as carrier was when he or she produced an affected offspring. The traditional recommendation in veterinary medicine would be gelding of these animals to prevent other affected offspring being produced. However, this is no longer necessary and not in the best interest of the breed. Carrier animals that have all the desirable traits for which the breed is known can now be mated to other tested animals who are clear and then never produce an affected foal. Similarly, their offspring can be tested and appropriate matings set up in the next generations without the breed ever suffering the loss of another foal to SCID. In this manner, the breed still continues to benefit from all of the outstanding traits that a carrier animal may possess. Thus, the economic value of the animal should not be affected by being clear or carrier.
> 
> Testing is easy and highly accurate, and can be performed at any point in time in the life of the animal with a simple cheek or lip swab or a blood sample. The cost of testing is a small fraction of the value invested in the animal. There is no reason to gamble on fate. All breeding animals need to be tested to avoid major losses and heartache to the humans and to prevent morbidity in the animals.
> ...



Now.......testing is not mandatory in the US. But in order for a number of Countries to IMPORT testing is absolutely necessary.

And again.............Who would NOT want to know? Why would you not test your horse?

Well, again, the Arabian breeding Industry is much different than the Miniature Industry. Our National Champion Stallion booked 180 mares last year........not the norm but surely the numbers are high for top stallions. And again, nobody in their right mind would spend this kind of money breeding without testing. As long as people are EDUCATED you will not have a problem. But with minis, IMHO people just do not breed very many outside mares. If they finally develop a test........would you have it?.............would you publish it the results on your breeding stallions..........would it make a difference? Or would the same people claiming that they would never breed repeated dwarf producers and do anyway........and there are a number of them out there..........just hide it because there really is no reason to bring it up because of the lack of outside breedings?

Would Mini people as a whole demand the testing before they purchase a horse........because this is ONE way I see this making a difference.

Food for thought.


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## [email protected] (Dec 30, 2005)

*And again.............Who would NOT want to know? Why would you not test your horse?*

Carol - you're very correct on that one! If there was a test, I would want my minis tested and it would also affect my purchases in the future as I would not purchase ones that weren't tested. I would hope all reputable breeders would test, regardless if they stand to outside mares or not. (I can't imagine bringing in 180 outside mares though either!)

Now would I publish a horses dwarf carrying genes, I don't think I'd advertise it, but I would stop breeding it, and would be truthful about it.

Currently, we double register and DNA/parent qualifying (yes I know people can cheat), but I want to truthfully represent what we sell, so I would want to test for that if it was available.

We also research (for what it's worth) the pedigrees of all horses here, that we purchase or plan to purchase, ie specifically bloodlines. What concerns me is even when we know horse A (that we don't own) has produced dwarves, we can't 'out' the horse as there isn't proof (ie a genetic test) to prove it. I wouldn't want to get sued saying Ranch B's stallion A has sired a dwarf - unless it was out of my mare. They could always say it was some neglect on our part, single parent passing (my mare), environmental, etc.

I am glad to see more open discuss of this topic - it's a start towards honesty and getting a test in the future!


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## Minimor (Dec 30, 2005)

Would I test our horses if a dwarf gene test was available? Certainly. Would I publish the results on our breeding stallion(s)? Certainly--because they would be negative....a positive result would mean the horse was no longer a breeding stallion!! Would I demand a negative test on any horse I was buying? You bet.

Little Bit--your Inky is so adorable, & I just love that photo of him!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 30, 2005)

ok so i ask not being accusatory but what number would it take for those of you that say you would breed again just not the 2 togther?

2 dwarves from one horse 3 4 what is the number or is there a number you would say nope let me pull them out of the gene pool?


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 30, 2005)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> ok so i ask not being accusatory but what number would it take for those of you that say you would breed again just not the 2 togther?
> 532234[/snapback]
> ​


Good question Lisa. I would like to know what that magic number is too. And I am not being accusatory either. But it seems "some" people just don't give a darn if they are going to keep breeding dwarf producers. If old spot produces the color they want or the movement they want, etc. they are going to breed him/her. Seems like $$$$$$ are more of a motivation to many than doing what is right for the miniature horse themselves.

Somebody mentioned that you could not say what you would do in less you were in someone elses shoes that had a dwarves born..........sorry this just not apply IMHO. You are in this to better the breed or you are not. It's that simple.

Now I am not saying 1 dwarf.........I am saying dwarves.....magic number again.

Being an Arab person I can't even imagine being NUTS enough to breed two carriers! It's absurd!

What is that magic number? Maybe a poll?


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## Southern_Heart (Dec 30, 2005)

Vertical Limit said:


> If old spot  produces the  color they want or the movement they want, etc.  they are going to breed him/her.  Seems like $$$$$$ are more of a motivation to many than doing what is right for the miniature horse themselves.
> 
> 532246[/snapback]
> ​



Saddly enough, I agree with you on this one! I beleive even with out testing... and knowing what your mares or stallions have produced on your farm, common sense, as to whats going on, should be a wake up call.

Joyce


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## Lewella (Dec 30, 2005)

Tammie made a great point - what if Dwarfism is a polygenic trait? A polygenic trait requires more than one gene pair for full expression. If Dwarfism is polygenic it would take possibly dozens of different tests to isolate all the genes envolved and some may be genes that influence/control other desireable characteristics.

For example, both sabino and leopard are polygenic color traits. Say we wanted to eliminate one of them from the gene pool. In order to do that, we could inadvertantly eliminate the other because there is at least one gene known to effect expression of both. That's a scarry thought!

Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.


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## runamuk (Dec 30, 2005)

Lewella said:


> Tammie made a great point - what if Dwarfism is a polygenic trait?  A polygenic trait requires more than one gene pair for full expression.  If Dwarfism is polygenic it would take possibly dozens of different tests to isolate all the genes envolved and some may be genes that influence/control other desireable characteristics.
> For example, both sabino and leopard are polygenic color traits.  Say we wanted to eliminate one of them from the gene pool.  In order to do that, we could inadvertantly eliminate the other because there is at least one gene known to effect expression of both.  That's a scarry thought!
> 
> Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.
> ...


Totally agree...and since we see different "types" or expressions of dwarfism.....it really does seem that there would be more than one gene that we are looking for...........and another thing is that as a group people do not even agree on what a minimal dwarf is...one persons perfect example of a tiny miniature is often in my eyes showing dwarf traits.......I have just completely given up the idea of breeding....and yes the dwarf issue is part of it.....along with the money end.....so my mini's are pretty much just my pets now....we will be doing gelding in the spring on my stallion and my colt


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## horsehug (Dec 30, 2005)

> Tammie made a great point - what if Dwarfism is a polygenic trait? A polygenic trait requires more than one gene pair for full expression. If Dwarfism is polygenic it would take possibly dozens of different tests to isolate all the genes envolved and some may be genes that influence/control other desireable characteristics.
> For example, both sabino and leopard are polygenic color traits. Say we wanted to eliminate one of them from the gene pool. In order to do that, we could inadvertantly eliminate the other because there is at least one gene known to effect expression of both. That's a scarry thought!
> 
> Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool


Lewella,

I totally agree with you and Tammie on this.

It has been interesting reading everyone's opinions. I also thought Whitestar's post was excellent. Thanks Debbie!

And after all 14 pages, I also still agree with Tony.

Susan O.


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## Little Bit (Dec 31, 2005)

[SIZE=12pt]Lewella, I have to disagree with you here:[/SIZE]



> Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.


Since our only indication right now whether a horse is a carrier of the dwarf gene or not, is that it has produced a dwarf, I think we HAVE to use good judgement and pull those horses from the gene pool! There are LOTS of horses who have NOT produced a dwarf, as of yet, so why would anyone take a chance of using an already known dwarf producer???????

IMO it would only be someone who was not educated enough to know better than to use a known dwarf producing horse or it is the $$$$$$$. JMHO

It's also JMO that it should only take ONE dwarf for me to pull a horse from the breeding pool.


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## Margaret (Dec 31, 2005)

I have to agree with little bit. I have seen too much suffering from "produced dwarves" to consider using anything that has produced one. Not only that but one that has produced a dwarf, if continued to be bred, can turn around and produce a seemingly normal offspring the next time, and that can be the one that has the greater potential to produce dwarves. So it isnt allways the obvious carrier that is the culprit, but insted the not so obvious offspring that continues to breed.


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## chandab (Dec 31, 2005)

bluerogue said:


> There are so many things that can be traced back to environmental causes, if people would take the time to track them down. It's astonishing the cases of accidental poisoning that occur simply because people don't pay attention to how long the field should remain fallow after fertilizing or spraying pesticide. Some of those fertilizers and pesticides will enter a horses system simply by the horse walking in the grass (route of entry is the frog, the sole, and the skin right above the coronary band).  Not even to mention if the horse should actually eat the grass. Horrible, horrible stuff.They are much more dangerous than many people realize, or even think about.


I agree completely with your post. It's just beyond my comprehension that people wouldn't consider fertilizers and pesticides as possible sources of poisoning (especially pesticides). Pesticides are toxic, they may be intended for a specific species or type of critter, but they are poisons, none the less, and should be treated as such for all animals. We all need to be sure we follow the directions when using fertilizers and pesticides.

Case in point... Someone lost or dumped some fertilizer in the road ditch. Someone else cut and baled hay out of the ditch, fed the hay to their bulls and lost several bulls in very short order. It wasn't intentional, but the person who put up the hay, should have been notified that a chemical spill had occurred.


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## Firefall (Dec 31, 2005)

If you were to breed ones that had produced 1 dwarf in the past, how would you know who the carrier is if they aren't re-bred to a different mini?

Just wondering and trying to learn.


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## EllieB (Dec 31, 2005)

I've been following this topic; very interesting.

Thank you for all the valuable insight.


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## Margaret (Dec 31, 2005)

Any horse that has thrown a dwarf can be a carrier, and can also continue to produce seemingly normal offspring as well. The dwarf gene does not allways show itself in each offspring, although it can be carried through to the next generation. The only way to track a carrier is to know who the origional dwarf producer is, and to avoid those lines for breeding.


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## horsehug (Dec 31, 2005)

I would just like to say that I truly love my horses and am one of the lucky ones who is living my dream of breeding and raising horses.

I have had a few dwarfs born over my 17 years here and have been open and honest about them. However, with the stigma that still seems to be attached to having one born, I can sure understand how it might be very hard for people who can't take the judgmental attitudes, to find it very difficult to be open and honest.

When one is born here I try to give it a happy painfree life or else find it a home where it will be truly loved in a less harsh climate than where I live with our long cold and snowy winters. I would never refer to one of these precious little foals, as hideous! I love them like I do my normal foals.

I believe in letting them live as long as they can live a happy life, and in HUMANELY putting them down if it reaches the point where that can't happen or if they are not viable at birth. So in my way of thinking I am NOT causing suffering by continuing to allow dwarf producers to still breed, and I do not breed a pair who has produced one again. My little mares have just as much joy raising a dwarf foal as a normal foal. They love them very much. I also might add that I have only ever had two dystocias that were dwarfs. I have had more hard births ......maplresentations, tight births, breech births etc. that were NOT dwarfs.

If anyone wants to call me greedy.......... so be it. They don't really know me. I try very hard not to judge others, even those I disagree with. I ALWAYS try to look for the good in people, even those it is very hard to find it in.

For the "small" financial benefit or profit from raising minis that I and most of us make, oftentimes taking a loss as a matter of fact, I don't think I'd be feeding in blizzards, subzero temps, constant wind, and snow over half the year, if I was doing any of this out of greed! I truly love my minis. They are my passion and I would NEVER intentionally breed for a dwarf....... but I do not feel guilty breeding nice horses, knowing there is a small chance that a dwarf will happen, since I know they are also capable of producing NICE foals which are for the betterment of the breed (as John Eberth explained his beliefs to me).......... since I know I will try to do what is best for my foals....... whether they are dwarfs or not!

I'd also like to say I would definitely have mine tested if a test was available. If in fact it takes two carriers to produce one and IF that were finally found out, we would know ( like in the explanation about Arabs) that a carrier bred to a non carrier would never produce a dwarf. And I and many others would be glad we had not eliminated our carriers then also.

While waiting for a test to become available, and waiting to know if it is polygenic like has been mentioned, which could get very complicated, I will continue to try to make very careful decisions in my breeding, like I always do!

Susan O.


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## kaykay (Dec 31, 2005)

i have started to post a couple times on here and erased it. ok im gonna bite the bullet here and say for people saying they would pull any horse that had a bloodline that produced a dwarf well you better start gelding. I looked a some of the posters sites and yes they are breeding bloodlines that have produced a dwarf.

i feel there is NO bloodline that has never produced a dwarf. So basically we would have to remove all miniature horses and start completely over breeding from ponies and small horses again if you guys really mean what you are posting. If we really truly took out every BLOODLINE that EVER produced a dwarf well then we are done!

before anyone flames me LOL i would never try to produce a dwarf and you all know that






And i love rabbit and she knows that. BUT (always a but) there is no way she can PROVE her claim that there has never been a dwarf produced from her lines. Just cannot be proven as a fact unless you kept every single horse you ever produced!!Since i know of no farm that kept every horse produced for over years and years theres just no way anyone imo can make that claim. Lets say you sold a filly. Later she went on to throw a minimal expression dwarf but her new owners have no idea that its a dwarf. So you never hear back from them and they breed the minmal expression dwarf and on it goes.

I have been told by many farms that their bloodline never produced a dwarf and then sure enough later saw a dwarf with that bloodline.

It all boils down to one thing. We need research!!


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## Minimor (Dec 31, 2005)

But Kay, most people aren't saying horses from a bloodline that produced a dwarf...they are saying a specific horse that has produced a dwarf.

While it's quite possible that there have been dwarves in every bloodline...not every mini has produced a dwarf. I don't believe every Mini carries dwarfism--even a great granddaughter of a dwarf may not have inherited any dwarf gene from the dwarf 4 generations back--I am willing to take a chance on breeding a horse that hasn't produced a dwarf & that has what I consider the right conformation. However, if one of those breeding animals should this year produce a dwarf, then that becomes an entirely different matter! That horse is then, for me, out of the breeding shed!

It's not a perfect way to try & eliminate dwarfism, but like we've said, until there's a test available, it's all we've got.


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## kaykay (Dec 31, 2005)

minimor

im basically replying to this statement

Lewella, I have to disagree with you here:

QUOTE

Basically, my opinion is that until we know exactly how many gene pairs are envolved and the mode of inhertitance of Dwarfism that it would be short sighted to remove known producing lines entirely from the gene pool.

So yes im not talking about specific horses im talking about bloodlines





sorry i should have made that clear! this thread kinda goes back and forth

etween the two.

But even when we are talking about specific horses. Statistics surely play a role here. My stallion tamale has never produced a dwarf. But does that mean he never will or is it only because he hasnt been bred to many mares?? Id like to think he never will but i have to be realistic. If you own a big well known stallion that is bred to hundreds of mares he probably will have produced dwarfs due to the number of different mares hes been bred to.


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## Margaret (Dec 31, 2005)

Just to give my previous reply a little perspective,and I want to add that I have switched stallions this last year, and wanted to share that the great great grandsire of my current sire was suspected to be a dwarf by many. Many people have him as a foundation sire, in their own pedigrees. But, my sires dam in no way has had any dwarfs to my knowledge, or charactics of one herself, and he himself shows none. Nevertheless, I will be watching things closely for the first few years. If we ever have a dwarf, it will not be the end of the world, I'll just geld him, and that will be that. This is just the way that I feel led to do things, as we all have to awnser to our situtations. But I dont anticipate that I will need to do so, and am hoping for some normal healthy foals.



Susan, I respect your decision to do what you are doing, and in no way mean to sound judgemental.



Just trying to help others sort out the confusion of how to establish a dwarf free line.


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## kaykay (Dec 31, 2005)

margaret for sure there are no easy answers and thats all im trying to point out. Its just not as black and white as some people think. There are so many shades of grey. For sure i would pull a horse that consistently produced dwarfs. No doubt about that.


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## Lewella (Dec 31, 2005)

Okay, I'm speaking from a scientific standpoint here not an emitonal one. I understand this is an emotional issue - but more than that it is a scientific/genetic issue.

If dwarfism is polygenic just removing individuals who have produced dwarf offspring isn't going to elimintate dwarfism from the gene pool - this is a scientific fact. It isn't going to eliminate carriers of dwarfing genes from the gene pool either - another scientific fact. The only option would be to entirely eliminate _all_ bloodlines that are known to have produced a dwarf - which as others have pointed out would basically eliminate the entire breed. Without a test for every single gene of a polygenic trait parts of that trait will always be present and capable of producing some form of dwarfism.

Going to go back to Fresians here - they have attempted to eliminate sabino from their gene pool. Have they? No. Why? Because it is a polygenic trait. Fresians still crop out with sabino roaning or a star caused by sabino now and then.

Recessive traits are also difficult to eliminate from a gene pool. The only way to do it is with testing. Again, the Fresians - they have tried to breed red out of their gene pool but haven't managed. Until every Fresian is red factor tested and found to be EE there will be the possibility of red individuals.

The only trait that can be easily removed from a gene pool is a dominant trait. It is simple to breed out tobiano. Some breeds have bred out gray.

Research is needed to know exactly what we are dealing with - until we know that we don't know how to handle removing the trait from the gene pool or at least resticting the propagation of the trait.


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## Whitewave (Dec 31, 2005)

Thanks Little Bit for all your info I am a member of your forum and love it.Here is my dwarf Music Man. His sire (I do not own sire or dam) has produced 3 dwarfs out of three different mares and yes they are still using him for breeding.

Why I don not know but he will have three more foals come march 06. I ave aked the owner why and her comment was "well maybe I'll get a normal one, if not then I will Geld him". Sounds like a stupid reason to me. Luckly I did not buy andy horses or breed any horses to any of hers and my Stallion does not come from her lines.

Bless the little Dwarfs they truly raise your spirits when you need a hug.


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## sdmini (Dec 31, 2005)

Wow 15 pages and for the most part all civil non-judgemental statments.





I, personally, can not say I would do this or I would do that. I believe that each and every situation should be looked individually.

If Gold Melody Boy had been pulled for producing a dwarf (hypothetical) yes the miniature world would have survived just fine but think of all the horses we would have missed out on. No Sid's Rebel, no Roan Ranger, no Buckeroo, no Skip a Star, no Johnston Super Charger, no B.O.B., no Zorro and the list goes on and on.

Not every horse, obviously, is GMB which is why I say every situation should be viewed as case by case. Many of our most sought after lines at one time or another produced a dwarf. The number of mares the "top" stallions breed in a life time compared to most stallions is going to also increase the chance they are going to produce a dwarf.

Lewella way to break it down for even a genetic idiot like myself to ahhhhh I get it.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 31, 2005)

I think the thing that saddens me most and yes I have played a part in it- is the feeling that and I guess the truth in.. that if we dont breed our horses or pull them from the breeding pool we would lose money and then what would we do with them.

I dont know how to get this breed past that mentality and again YES i am admitting I have played a huge part in that but thankfully seeing others who were a good mirror for me really helped me to see what I could and was on my way to becoming and admit that to myself and to me anyway that is a HUGE step and one that is enabling me to make some changes on my own farm.

Anyway I think if we could get past the no breeding = worthless something most other breeds dont have to deal with due to the many other options for there horses - I think we could really get research done, and take action but it is the mindset of breed breed breed, breed quickly do it at 2 do it at 3 just breed them

Again I dont have the answers but truly think that it is one of if not THE biggest issue facing our breed today


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 31, 2005)

> Any horse that has thrown a dwarf can be a carrier, and can also continue to produce seemingly normal offspring as well. The dwarf gene does not allways show itself in each offspring, although it can be carried through to the next generation. The only way to track a carrier is to know who the origional dwarf producer is, and to avoid those lines for breeding


I am going to play devil's advocate here with the above and add to it.

What iF you own a stallion who you breed to many mares in your herd. Lets say he is a carrier but you do not know this and one of your mare's is as well and they are bred - produce a "normal" foal but who carries the dwarf gene. You breed this mare and stallion a few times and the result is the same - foals are normal but they perhaps carry the gene and it doesn't show up for a couple of generations....

You sell the mare or the stallion so you never know that either one carries the gene. It is not as easy as you all perhaps think of getting rid of dwarfism in minis. JMHO

I wanted to mention the earlier information about the Friesans and dwarfism in that breed. It was not difficult for them to eradicate it since basically they only at the time had 3 breeding stallions being used. Quite a difference with the many many miniature horses males that remain intact and that many of them go back to some lines the possibly enabled the dwarfism gene to propagate as it has.


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## ~Palomino~ (Jan 1, 2006)

Danielle_E. said:


> > Any horse that has thrown a dwarf can be a carrier, and can also continue to produce seemingly normal offspring as well. The dwarf gene does not allways show itself in each offspring, although it can be carried through to the next generation. The only way to track a carrier is to know who the origional dwarf producer is, and to avoid those lines for breeding
> 
> 
> I am going to play devil's advocate here with the above and add to it.
> ...


your right Danielle,

No-ONE can predict if a horse is a dwarf carrier, and NO-ONE can predict if a mare is going to have a dwarf, and NO-ONE should be held against it, I see if they kept breeding the same pare AGAIN AND AGAIN, but no one can stop a dwarf from being a dwarf if they dont know it is a carrier!

Gage


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## Little Bit (Jan 1, 2006)

[SIZE=10pt]Susan, you wrote:[/SIZE]



> I love them like I do my normal foals. I believe in letting them live as long as they can live a happy life, and in HUMANELY putting them down if it reaches the point where that can't happen or if they are not viable at birth. So in my way of thinking I am NOT causing suffering by continuing to allow dwarf producers to still breed, and I do not breed a pair who has produced one again. My little mares have just as much joy raising a dwarf foal as a normal foal. They love them very much. I also might add that I have only ever had two dystocias that were dwarfs. I have had more hard births ......maplresentations, tight births, breech births etc. that were NOT dwarfs.
> 
> If anyone wants to call me greedy.......... so be it. They don't really know me. I try very hard not to judge others, even those I disagree with. I ALWAYS try to look for the good in people, even those it is very hard to find it in.


Of course you love your dwarves like you do your "normal" foals, and I commend you for doing your best for them,



Heck, I even helped you find another home for lil' Puddin!



And of course a mare loves her dwarf foal, but I still don't understand your reasoning when you wrote:



> So in my way of thinking I am NOT causing suffering by continuing to allow dwarf producers to still breed,


Perhaps you are not causing suffering with the dwarf foals that you produce, but what about all the other horses that you produce, who could very easily be carriers of the dwarf gene, because you have bred known dwarf producing horses,

who go on to produce dwarf foals?.... chances are those dwarf foals are not loved and cared for like yours.





I know you must have some very nice horses that have never produced a dwarf yet to your knowledge, why wouldn't you pull the known dwarf producing horses out of your breeding program and just use the horses you have that have not yet produced a dwarf? Why would you take the chance of producing a dwarf foal, or a foal that is a carrier, by continuing to breed your known dwarf producing horses?

I am not judging you Susan, just trying to understand your reasoning here?

I know it's not from a lack of education about dwarfism in the Miniature Horse, and you say it's not from greed.............





I'm not being judgemental of you or trying to be nasty,



just trying to understand you a little bit better.



Actually it's not just you Susan, but anyone else who continues to breed known dwarf producing horses.



I hope you won't be upset with me for asking these questions.





Just like the people Jan was talking about when she wrote:



> His sire (I do not own sire or dam) has produced 3 dwarfs out of three different mares and yes they are still using him for breeding.Why I don not know but he will have three more foals come march 06. I ave aked the owner why and her comment was "well maybe I'll get a normal one, if not then I will Geld him". Sounds like a stupid reason to me.


Jan, your little Music Man could be my Toy's twin brother!!!! It's amazing how much they look alike!


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## ~Palomino~ (Jan 1, 2006)

Janell,

I dont think Susan said she dosent mind if some of her foals are dwarves and that she dosent care if she produces one, I know Susan would NEVER NEVER intentionally produce a dwarf, but I think she is trying to say, just because a dwarf is born, dosent mean it should be hidden like its the end of the world!

I honestly think that all those foals that are out of Buckeroo have had dwarfs, but have you herd of ONE? I think what those people do is hide them, and never tell people because they are afraid that it will ruin there reputation!

Its not just Susan who has produced dwarfs before, and she isnt afraid to hide that her dwarfs deserve better, and they are somthing too! I really beleive that ALOT of miniature horses are being bred that are caring the dwarf gene, EVEN the people who say they wouldnt own a dwarf carrieng miniature horse, its not possible to know forsure, and you allready know this, but I just dont think Susan needs to be put down just because she LOVES her dwarfs!

Gage


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## horsehug (Jan 1, 2006)

Little Bit,



> Perhaps you are not causing suffering with the dwarf foals that you produce, but what about all the other horses that you produce, who could very easily be carriers of the dwarf gene, because you have bred known dwarf producing horses,who go on to produce dwarf foals?.... chances are those dwarf foals are not loved and cared for like yours


With your reasoning, how do we know if anyone down the line is going to take care of "any" foals, not just dwarfs? I tend to look for the good in people, and find it.

In general I do find most people to be basically good. In my experience, those who have dwarfs do as I do and either take good care of them or find them good homes. I think these days especially, with all the info out there and the internet, that there are people waiting to have little dwarfs to love and give special attention to. I know of quite a few myself.

In one of your posts, when you talked about how much you love your little dwarfs you said a dwarf is not always a bad thing and I agree. Tony also said to have a dwarf is not the end of the world and I agree. If I felt that small chance was for a truly bad thing, I would not breed my horses who are carriers.

As to greed, I am certainly not making much if anything over and above the cost of raising my little ones. I love having my foals each year and love seeing my mares enjoy their foals too. Like I said, I always wanted to raise horses from the time I was small. And I do find good homes and educate the buyers.

I guess if you think my letting my little mares have foals to love and me enjoy them too and find them good homes is greed, then we have different definitions of greed. When people talk about $$$$$ they are certainly not talking about MY program! I am thrilled just to make ends meet after all the feed and routine vet bills and all the other expenses that go with raising horses, and sometimes make the tiny profit the IRS wants....... but I first and foremost truly love the horses for themselves! I have some horses that I feel are free of dwarf genes (for instance one of my stallions has produced over 50 foals and never a dwarf) and I breed carriers to those horses, just like I would if we had a test.

And I do educate my buyers if I sell a foal from a carrier so that they can also educate on down the line.

I think we could go round and round about this, and I respect your right to your opinion.

Susan O.


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## Margaret (Jan 1, 2006)

> What iF you own a stallion who you breed to many mares in your herd. Lets say he is a carrier but you do not know this and one of your mare's is as well and they are bred - produce a "normal" foal but who carries the dwarf gene. You breed this mare and stallion a few times and the result is the same - foals are normal but they perhaps carry the gene and it doesn't show up for a couple of generations....You sell the mare or the stallion so you never know that either one carries the gene. It is not as easy as you all perhaps think of getting rid of dwarfism in minis. JMHO


 Ok lets face it until there is a test for the gene we must use our common sence to eliminate the dwarf carriers.. Even a carrier will produce one eventually, and that will be the indication that he /or she has the gene. But not all offspring that generate from dwarf lines are carriers. So lets not throw out the baby with the bath water..yet.. Since some of us allready have made investments in horses that stem from dwarf lines, so the only thing we can do is to see if they ever throw one.. Once they do produce a dwarf, we can eliminate them from the breeding pool...But if they never do, we can assume that ours is not a carrier, nor a producer of one, and thus free of the dwarf gene. Its as simple as that, and really a good way to determine who is and who is not a carrier/producer.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Jan 1, 2006)

Danielle_E. said:


> Â  It is not as easy as you all perhaps think of getting rid of dwarfism in minis. JMHO
> 
> 
> 533281[/snapback]
> ​


All i know for sure is what we are doing as a breed isnt working so something should and needs to change I think that is something we can all agree on.


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 1, 2006)

> Once they do produce a dwarf, we can eliminate them from the breeding pool...But if they never do, we can assume that ours is not a carrier, nor a producer of one, and thus free of the dwarf gene. Its as simple as that, and really a good way to determine who is and who is not a carrier/producer.


You can not, in my opinion, categorically make the statement, "my herd is free of the dwarf gene" in the following sense. Lets say your stallion IS a carrier but the mares he is bred to are not. This could be the case unless you have many many mares you are breeding to that stallion and you happen on a mare who has the gene. You may never know that indeed your stallion is a carrier and the same goes for a mare who is but is not paired up with a stallion who isn't. Now is it a "fact" that we know unconditionally that it takes the mare and the stallion to be carriers to pass this on? Or are we just assuming that this is the case in humans so hence it's the way it is in horses????? Are there any conclusive studies that have been done with regards to this in minis?

Susan O, I have the utmost respect for you as a human being and as a horsewoman. You are absolutely correct in saying that more than likely many of the famous stallions and their progeny could very well have and still do produce dwarves and they are "hidden" away like a dirty secret. I TOTALLY APPLAUD you and others that are upfront and take an educational role. You are taking "responsibility" and that is not an easy thing to do when faced with criticism.


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## Southern_Heart (Jan 1, 2006)

Thought that this was interesting.

I found this on (Link)Congenital Anomalies and Inherited Disorders of the Horse 

If you care to read the whole site, but this is listed under (Congenital Disorders of the Musculoskeletal System) second section.

Dwarfism refers to the failure of appropriate growth resulting in a smaller horse. A dwarf horse can be proportionate or disproportionate. Proportionate dwarfs are a result of a deficiency in growth hormone while disproportionate dwarfs result from abnormal thyroid hormone levels. The latter results in a foal with musculoskeletal immaturity, characterized by delayed cuboidal bone development, a large head, silky hair coat, floppy ears and mandibular brachygnathia. Determination and interpretation of either growth hormone assays or thyroid hormone function is not entirely developed or understood in the equine, hence the importance of clinical diagnosis. Efforts towards characterizing thyroid function and growth hormone levels should be undertaken to prevent overdiagnosing this condition. A nitrate toxicity theory has been confirmed in certain foals born with "congenital hypothyroid syndrome".


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## runamuk (Jan 1, 2006)

This in my mind is just one more difficulty......I hear of more thyroid problems in miniatures than in other equine breeds..in fact most vets will tell you thyroid issues in horses "just don't happen" yet I have seen miniatures who did improve once put on thyroid medication.....this alone makes me go "hmmmmm" even with no other indication of dwarfism.

The other issue is every case of dwarfism needs to be studied carefully...and all environmental causes need to be ruled out first....as it isn't fair to blame genetics/heredity...where an environmental cause is to blame (fertilizer, herbicides, plants, etc...)

And then we are back to not even knowing if it takes two for certain to create a carrier/dwarf......many of the human forms can be accounted for by a single gene and not 2...or in the case of thyroid or pituitary it isn't so much a "gene" as a malfunction.....some of which can be reversed with medications................

which beg's another question ...if you could "fix" a dwarf with medication...would you?



Southern_Heart said:


> Thought that this was interesting.I found this on (Link)Congenital Anomalies and Inherited Disorders of the Horse
> 
> If you care to read the whole site, but this is listed under (Congenital Disorders of the Musculoskeletal System) second section.
> 
> ...


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## Southern_Heart (Jan 1, 2006)

> which beg's another question ...if you could "fix" a dwarf with medication...would you?


runamuk,

JMHOâ€¦I personally donâ€™t believe it would be possible to fix a dwarf with medication. Because of the deformities involved.

But how ever maybe the parents having medication, sure couldnâ€™t hurt, but here we go againâ€¦.Testing is needed! Humâ€¦

But I did think it was a good articleâ€¦..

Joyce


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## runamuk (Jan 1, 2006)

Southern_Heart said:


> > which beg's another question ...if you could "fix" a dwarf with medication...would you?
> 
> 
> runamuk,
> ...


pituitary dwarfism in humans can now be reversed by using growth hormones...so yes some types of dwarfism do have the potential to be "fixed"




and that was why I asked.


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## Southern_Heart (Jan 1, 2006)

runamuk,

In a human then.... yes I would fix... but leaves the question can or could it be done in a horse or has it ever been tried???


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## Minimor (Jan 2, 2006)

congenital hypothyroidism caused by nitrate poisoning. Yes, it does cause things such as an underbite, longer gestation, foaling difficulties, silky haircoat and leg problems. However, those leg problems consist of weak extensor tendons, swellings on the knees, and immature bones in knees &/or hocks. I have personal experience back when we were raising Morgans.

We also had foaling problems in 2004; those problems were due to an iodine deficiency and nitrate poisoning. Our foals appeared normal, but because they never stood we had no indication of how affected their legs were--had they been strong enough to stand we may have found that their extensor tendons were severely affected.

Regardless, back in 1991 when we had our problem with our Morgans I talked to a research vet at WCVM Saskatoon--he was specializing in congenital hypothyroidism, though at that time his studies were fairly new & there were many unanswered questions. I talked to him again in 2004, and he had many more answers for me this time around. Because some on here had talked of the deformities their foals had from nitrate poisoning, I asked him about the leg deformities. He said there are no deformities as such, though he thought it possible that when people mentioned deformities they were referring to the weak extensor tendons, the immature bones in the joints (which can lead to tarsal crushing syndrome) & the swollen knees--all of which I was familiar with. Otherwise, he said, congenital hypothyroidism does not cause true deformities. Obviously his research has been mainly on big horse breeds where dwarfism isn't an issue in the first place. I have no idea how many Miniatures he has studied.

Since in big horses congenital hypothyroidism/nitrate poisoning does not cause dwarfism symptoms other than the underbite & silky haircoat, if in Miniatures it is causing "typical" dwarf characteristics such as the domed forehead, disproportionately short legs, twisted, deformed legs, etc. etc., then I would venture a guess that in these Minis there is more going on than "typical" nitrate poisoning/congenital hypothyroidism. My theory--and obviously it is just a theory--is that with dwarfism existing in Miniatures, the nitrate poisoning may trigger the dwarfism gene to be more apparent. I shall have to call the university one day and discuss this theory with the research vet, but so far I haven't gotten around to doing that.

Minor deformities caused by congenital hypothyroidism are reversible in some cases; our Morgan filly that was born with an underbite and weak legs did grow out of it--as her own thyroid gland began functioning, her jaw grew out so that she had a perfect bite, and her weak tendons did heal--in time her extensor tendons became normal, her knee swellings went away, and she never had a problem with tarsal crushing. But, in other horses that are more severely affected, the condition does not correct itself completely, regardless of diet. so, I have to think that if a Mini is quite badly affected by dwarfism caused by nitrates...it would not be treatable/correctable.


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## Margaret (Jan 2, 2006)

> You can not, in my opinion, categorically make the statement, "my herd is free of the dwarf gene" in the following sense. Lets say your stallion IS a carrier but the mares he is bred to are not. This could be the case unless you have many many mares you are breeding to that stallion and you happen on a mare who has the gene. You may never know that indeed your stallion is a carrier and the same goes for a mare who is but is not paired up with a stallion who isn't. Now is it a "fact" that we know unconditionally that it takes the mare and the stallion to be carriers to pass this on? Or are we just assuming that this is the case in humans so hence it's the way it is in horses????? Are there any conclusive studies that have been done with regards to this in minis?


 Well , in my case with only 2 mares stemming from a solid line of non-dwarf breeding, I can narrow down who I would, and would not reasonably suspect, as I believe it takes two gene carriers to produce a dwarf, and to think otherwise would mean dwarfism is a dominate gene,and dominate genes are expressed like the color gene, pinto markings etc... so two must carry the gene to produce one. I am not one to get into semantics over things- but my case is fairly simple to deduct, with a total of 3 horses.LOL ....But it does help to know some history of dwarf producers..., to enable one to do this. - I am fortunate to have a friend who specializes in the study of this. In any event, until a test is available, "pedigree" is all we have to go off of,..to see who we have, that may be a carrier, as the genetic dwarf gene is passed on from the prior generations, and they can be traced. This is just one way to deal with it, that I find reasonable, until a more conclusive test can be implimented. (rather than do nothing until a test can be developed)


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 2, 2006)

Margaret, yes with 3 you are pretty safe to assume as long as you are able to go to the very very very beginning of your horses pedigrees. What I should of said is NOBODY is immune to having a dwarf foal. It may not happen genetically but it could happen because of environmental issues or hormonal issues. All I am saying is people who think "oh it will never happen to me" well don't be so sure about that, YOU NEVER KNOW is what I am saying and it's best that we learn as much as we can instead of finger pointing. It is a problem in minis period and the sooner we all open our eyes and get a study funded the better it will be for the breed. I may not get liked here after I say this and no I haven't had any dwarves born here, not yet anyway, but the attitude that seems to be prevalent on the foum HAS chased away some extremely knowledgeable people because of past discussion on this topic and some of the things that were said. These individuals have alot to offer in educating us with regards to dwarfism and other issues and what do we do, we silence them. Not a good thing.


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