# Registered Shetlands/Minis



## kaykay (Mar 22, 2005)

I know how most (not all!) miniature horse breeders feel about the double registered shetland/miniatures. How do shetland breeders feel about it?? NO flames just a discussion


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## lyn_j (Mar 22, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]Im a mini breeder and I love them! I think they are exactly where they belong. I win more with these that I have now than I have before. Even my mini onlys have a t least one shetland parent or grandparent.[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## Serene Acres (Mar 22, 2005)

Most of the Breeders in our Area are very welcome to the idea, we still have a few that just can't quite wrap the mind around the concept, but when they see an exceptionally well put together Miniature they always seem to ask a lot of questions. I've noticed several farms around us that decided to put a few of the Miniatures/Shetlands into their breeding programs. Hopefully they will have a lot of success with this venture.


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## Lewella (Mar 22, 2005)

About half my foals every year are small enough to be double registered. I like the small Shetlands as a Shetland person. I do sell quite a few to people who will eventually hardship them (my main herdsire isn't small enough for AMHR himself but he's a downsizer and with my 38 and 39 inch mares produces foals that sometimes don't go over 36! To my 40 and 41 inch mares I'm getting 38 and under too - and that's measured as Shetland not from last hair!). I like the marketablity.


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## Miniv (Mar 23, 2005)

We call them Miniature Shetlands and we love them! We breed both AMHA minis and the "miniature shetlands". There is a market for both, IMO.

MA


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## Filipowicz Farm (Mar 23, 2005)

We have several at our farm and love them. Even the horses from when we first started that were 1/2 Shetland sold so much better because of there movement.Ive seen here in Michigan more and more farms are getting aleast one Shetland mini to show.


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## USMCshamusmom (Mar 24, 2005)

Don't most people who have amhr/amha minis think they are more valuable and more marketable? I believe shetland/amhr registration makes a critter more valuable and more marketable too... and since" most" minis have shetland genes, I still can't understand why this causes such an uproar.... the secret is out of the closet for at least 20 years now!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Mar 24, 2005)

I am not a shetland breeder but I LOVE THEM and one day i will add a michagen or areonsa horse to myherd ( both so different i know)


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## lyn_j (Mar 24, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]I have heard the mini only people complain tho. I had one friend come to me and say that as long as we put the shetland minis in the futurities her mini only foals had no chance against them because the judges are always picking the shetlands. IT happens in regular classes too. They just have a neckier more upright look at least most of them and are more squarely built, not as long bodied...etc. I have some that are not double reg but they are still a high percentage shetland. Heck Bailey is high percentage hackney! But she measured37.25 by one of the toughest stewards on the east coast so she is also now a mini![/SIZE]

Lyn


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## kaykay (Mar 24, 2005)

i myself love them all, shetland, mini, mini cross. But there is a lot of animosity with some mini breeders about breeding miniatures back to shetlands. Some will even tell you its a step backwards when i consider it forward. Also i have met shetland breeders that dont at all like miniatures



So that is why i was wondering what shetland breeders think of the cross. If you show amhr you have surely heard the very loud vocal complaints about shetland/mini crosses showing in miniature classes. And i agree lyn they in general have much better necks and hips


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## andi (Mar 24, 2005)

First of all let me say, I think that breeding Shetlands to Miniatures is a great idea, and could really help the miniature breed. At the same time I can understand some of what the mini people are thinking when they see Shetlands showing against minis. One thing is that the weanlings and yearling Shetlands that are shown at nationals are often very young, therefore they are much more delicate and most likely are going to not even fit into the height limits later on. The classes have height limits to try and estimate how tall the horses will be when they mature, to prevent horses that are going to end up 40" tall from being able to show. But these estimations are based on the growing patterns assuming the parents where under 38", they weren't based on the parents being over 38".

Another issue many have is that many people feel that our goal should be to breed for the smallest most perfect horse, and that breeding with horses that are so much taller is unnecessary. On top of all this, some people just don't care for the look of many Shetlands, just as many Shetland people don't care for the look of many minis. Therefore deadfast mini people are understandably annoyed when all of a sudden, what they see as a whole different breed, a breed they may not care for, starts being what they have to breed to win.

I am not saying that I agree with any of this, but I can easily see how people could. I personally have mixed feelings. I feel that somehow the height limits need to be fixed to better control who shows in the classes. I also am a bigger fan of the look of minis than I am of Shetlands. I do see thought many benefits that cross breeding the two could bring. I feel that while most Shetlands have longer legs, longer necks, smaller heads, are overall more refined, and have better movement; most minis have straighter legs, hookier necks, better shaped heads, are overall more muscled, and have more level hips. The cross of these too could be incredible.

I haven't really been much help with figuring out how Shetlands breeders feel.






But I would assume they do not care as much sense they are not really showing against many crosses.






Lyn,

I don't know if your stallion has any Miniature in him, but I feel that he is very close to what I would like to see the end result be of crossing Mini's with Shetlands.


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## lyn_j (Mar 24, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]James. Steel is 100% shetland but I have bred him to some just plain minis....two for next year .and then two different ones the year after.[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## kaykay (Mar 24, 2005)

andi

I very much understand the argument about shetland crosses showing in the weanling/yearling classes against minis when its obvious they will not stay under. That is a valid complaint i think. I have been beaten by one myself and theres no way that filly was going to stay under but she was beautiful -- no doubt about it.

I liken it to the best of both worlds myself


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## txminipinto (Mar 26, 2005)

I understand why this is an issue with some people, especially those with falabellas in their bloodline. But lets not forget that the "miniature horse" is not a breed. "True" minis don't have the long neck or pretty head that the classic shetland has. Shetland outcrossing can only improve the miniature and the pulic opinion of them.


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## Mini_Bre (Mar 26, 2005)

IMO

A shetland is a shetland. A miniature is a miniature. Just like an arabian is an arabian and a quarter horse is a quarter horse. You donâ€™t see quarter horses registered with the arabian association.

Bre


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## txminipinto (Mar 26, 2005)

Saying an arabian is an arabian and a quarter horse is a quarter horse is one thing. A shetland can be a miniature and a miniature can be a shetland. All a miniature is is a bred down horse - its not a breed.


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## Mini_Bre (Mar 26, 2005)

And thats one thing that needs to be changed imo.





If I am showing in the American Miniature Horse Registery I want to be showing against miniature horses not shetlands. This very reason is what justifys AMHA for ony allowing 34 and under horses, imo. Just the way I see it. There is a reason their is an ASPR/ASPC and AMHR/AMHA.


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## Karen S (Mar 27, 2005)

Dear Miss Bre,

First I would like to ask you how long you have been involved with the ASPC/AMHR? With the way you write you must just be a child or a youth. My dear, you need to get your head out of the sand and wake up. The AMHA broke off of the ASPC/AMHR and started their own Registry. Those AMHA horses are full of Shetland blood and you can't take it out.

The Miniature Horse will never be a "breed". It is merely a height registry just like the AMHA. When the ASPC started the AMHR they saw a need for those Miniature's that went over height. That's when the AMHR was started. The divisions were up to 34 and over 34 to 38. There was nothing wrong with those horses except sometimes their Shetland heritage came to the surface. Still does today. Why do you think so many of the AMHA people have jumped on our bandwagon with AMHR? So they can get those animals registred so they can be sold.

The ASPC has been around since 1888, a whole lot longer than the AMHA. If it wasn't for the ASPC you wouldn't have a registry for your AMHR miniatures.

The reason people started complaining about the double registererd horses is that they couldn't compete. The horses fault? No way. It just means I must be doing something right with my breeding program. Go look at Buckeye Walnut Creek Farm. All of her miniatures are Shetlands but I don't hear anyone complaining when she wins. All of your D& S ponies are full blood Shetlands from the Seth Thomas line. I guess you don't know who Seth Thomas was. I'll leave that up for you to research. "Establo" is another fine example of full blood Shetlands being bred that are staying small and winning in the show ring. How many people both AMHA and AMHR that own's one of Sandy's horses? I could go on an on. As long as this registry remains a height registry you will have lots of diversity within. By the way, my 1998 National Grand Champion "B" gelding was 1/2 Harness pony. Father was a 31" stallion and his mother was a full blood harness mare. If that horse walked by you today you wouldn't even know he was 1/2 Harness bred. You can't tell by just looking at him. If I brought out any of my horses for you to look at I can bet that you wouldn't be able to pick out what was miniature and what was Shetland. No one can. I have seen plenty of miniatures that have that same "Look at Me" attitude as the Shetlands.

I also see that you referred to the ASPC/ASPR. Do you even know what an ASPR pony is? I bet you don't. No difference than the "B" miniature in the AMHR. So before you go give your opinion please do some homework first, you might be suprised at what you learn. JMHO.

Karen Shaw

Fiddlestix Miniatures & Shetlands

Burleson Texas


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## wpsellwood (Mar 27, 2005)

Why is it that someone must be involved in miniatures or Shetlandâ€™s for a long period of time to know anything? Ive heard this over and over again and it really gets old. I get the attitude since you have not been in it for 20 years you donâ€™t know anything. Now this is not everyone. The question wasnâ€™t how long you have been in this but what was your opinion I believe. So since I havenâ€™t been involved long enough apparently so I have no opinion.


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## kaykay (Mar 27, 2005)

wpsellwood---that is not what Karen is saying at all. I think (and karen pls correct me if im wrong) what she is saying is that before a person makes a blanket statement you better do a little research first and know some of the facts.

I am shocked by how many people dont understand that ASPC/AMHR was the first registry and that AMHA broke off from there. And the only time i get really upset is when a farm insists they are AMHA only and then registers their over 34" horses AMHR almost on the sly. If you are truly an AMHA only farm and truly believe that anything over 34" is not a miniature horse then why would you register it AMHR? For the money thats why.

And I am shocked by how many AMHA only breeders continue to insist that there is no shetland blood in their miniatures. And that alot of them keep acting like miniatures are a breed. They simply arent. Anything that measures 38" and under or 34 and under for amha is a miniature horse. Mini Bre i could go right now and by a shetland that measures 34 or under and hardship him or her into amha and then go compete. That horse for all intents and purposes is a miniature horse





Mini Bre is a young woman but she is very smart. But she has definately been raised in an AMHA only family farm so this is what she knows. There are I must say alot of adults that will say the same thing Mini Bre just did. I have heard it many times and it always gives me a chuckle.

The undisputed fact is as Karen said they are definately winning so there has to be alot to be said for the shetland crossed back to the miniatures. I think in the future this is going to be felt much more in AMHA as more become hardshipped in and show on the AMHA circuit.

And I am also an AMHA breeder but I also breed AMHR and own an ASPC shetland. So I am not against either registry--just want to be clear on that LOL.

edited to say i have only been in miniatures and shetlands for 4 years. I definately dont know everything and I am learing everyday. But i do read everything I can and ask questions of everyone I can so that I can continue to learn. I think the thing is to always have an open mind to ALL the possibilities


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## wpsellwood (Mar 27, 2005)

Kay Kay,

I can live with the way you put






I would think that everyone would know that minis came from Shetlands. I mean come on you are fooling yourself if you dont. I just get it alot that if you having been in it for a long period of time you dont know anything. Not just on here in general. I havenâ€™t been in the minis that long, we trained racehorses for entire life. Not telling my age though. So I didnt mean to come across huffy or anything





My thoughts on the double registry, I dont know the Shetland registry well enough. But if they are under why not. I think my stallion looks just like a Shetland. I hope he stays under 34, now here is the drag of it though like said before, he was barely over in the B division last year as a yearling. So he was showing against the tall kids and yes it did suck. He still placed even though he was the littlest one in there. So I can see why people dont like showing against them. Heres the flip side if he stays under 34 as a 3 yr he will be at an advantage. So if you cant beat them join them???


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## Mini_Bre (Mar 27, 2005)

Karen S said:


> Dear Miss Bre,
> First I would like to ask you how long you have been involved with the ASPC/AMHR? With the way you write you must just be a child or a youth. My dear, you need to get your head out of the sand and wake up. The AMHA broke off of the ASPC/AMHR and started their own Registry. Those AMHA horses are full of Shetland blood and you can't take it out.
> 
> The Miniature Horse will never be a "breed". It is merely a height registry just like the AMHA. When the ASPC started the AMHR they saw a need for those Miniature's that went over height. That's when the AMHR was started. The divisions were up to 34 and over 34 to 38. There was nothing wrong with those horses except sometimes their Shetland heritage came to the surface. Still does today. Why do you think so many of the AMHA people have jumped on our bandwagon with AMHR? So they can get those animals registred so they can be sold.
> ...



First of all I am aware there is shetland blood in miniatures I never denied that. Secondly I am aware of whom Establo is and the seth thomas collection and arenosas. I never said I didn't admire the beauty of these horses only that I beleive that horses should not be allowed to be double registered. You can't be two things at once, can you? IMO if this is a height breed and miniatures have to be under 38 inches I feel a shetland should have to be over 38 inches.

I am also very aware that AMHA was after AMHR, I never denied that either. And we too show both AMHA and AMHR so I am not "dogging" AMHR in anyway. Just stating my opinion, like everyone else.

Yep if it wasn't for the ASPC there wouldn't be an AMHR...never denied that.

And I have done my research so please don't assume I am unknowledgeable.


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## Mini_Bre (Mar 27, 2005)

> And I am shocked by how many AMHA only breeders continue to insist that there is no shetland blood in their miniatures. And that alot of them keep acting like miniatures are a breed. They simply arent. Anything that measures 38" and under or 34 and under for amha is a miniature horse. Mini Bre i could go right now and by a shetland that measures 34 or under and hardship him or her into amha and then go compete. That horse for all intents and purposes is a miniature horse
> Mini Bre is a young woman but she is very smart. But she has definately been raised in an AMHA only family farm so this is what she knows. There are I must say alot of adults that will say the same thing Mini Bre just did. I have heard it many times and it always gives me a chuckle.


Once again yes I know you could find a shetland under 34 inches and hardship into AMHA I have no problem with that what so ever. What I am trying to say is that you cant be 2 things at once. Say for instance that I have a horse named Bob. Bobâ€™s dam and sire are both pure shetlands. Bob is 36 inches tall and very refined long neck and so on. I have no problem if Bob is registered in the AMHR. But donâ€™t say he is a shetland too after you just registered him with the American Miniature Horse Registry. Does that make more sense?

Believe it or not I am not an AMHA only farm. We actually have an over horse...that we show



.


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## kaykay (Mar 27, 2005)

mini bre i apologize. I thought in earlier discussions you had said that you only breed and show amha and that you only registered one AMHR because she went over height.

The thing is mini you CAN be two things at once



Because miniatures arent a breed any horse that meets the height limit can be a mini. It could be a registered quarter horse or a registered shetland. Doesnt matter as long as the height requirement is met.

I think the reason this doesnt make sense to you is because you are still looking at The American Miniature HOrse as being a breed. It isnt and imo probably never will be.

Lets take your example. Why on earth wouldnt we call Bob a shetland if he came from two registered shetlands?? Would you then throw his shetland papers away when you crossed him into AMHR?? NO!!! That would be crazy. Especially since Shetlands are a BREED.

Does that make more sense??





and wpsellwood i totally agree


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## Lewella (Mar 27, 2005)

> One thing is that the weanlings and yearling Shetlands that are shown at nationals are often very young, therefore they are much more delicate and most likely are going to not even fit into the height limits later on."


I think this is a big misconception a lot of mini breeders have. The simple truth is that Shetlands put on their height much faster than most minis and most of the bloodlines you see showing up in the mini show ring are going to be full height by the time they hit 18 months old. Most of them don't go over as adults but because they are leggy as foals the perception is that they are going to. 

Carin is absolutely correct - the Miniature Horse as we know it is not a breed - it is a height and as such ANYTHING small enough has been registereable with the AMHR until recently (and still is with AMHA). That means if someone gets a fluke really small purebred Hackney they can register it (and don't kid yourself - both AMHR and AMHA have some Hackney too).

To be a breed requires a closed studbook. AQHA does not have a closed studbook - they allow outcrossing to Thoroughbreds and have their own controversies because of this (there are many people who view today's AQHA as a TB partbred registry.....thus the large number of Foundation QH registries in business today). The Arabian is a breed - their studbook is closed.



> You can't be two things at once, can you? IMO if this is a height breed and miniatures have to be under 38 inches I feel a shetland should have to be over 38 inches.


Yes, yes you can. You can AMHA/AMHR/PtHA - why not AMHR/ASPC/PtHA, etc? I know of big horses who are registered with four or five registries all at the same time - some show in multiple associations. What's wrong with that if the person has the drive and the dollars to do it? As for height - Shetlands are not a height registery - the ASPC is a breed registry and there is no lower limit on height - never has been, never will be. From day one the ASPC has had horses well under 38 inches, many of the early registrations were under 30 inches! 

I find it appalling that anyone would advocate throwing away heritage in one registry just because the horse is registered in another! In the horse business today you need to take advantage of every marketing tool available. If that means registering your horses in half a dozen different registeries - so be it.


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## lyn_j (Mar 27, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]Brie, here is my example. This is Michigans Sweet Tart..... a hundred years of shetland pedigree....He is registered foundation Shetland, He is 2 years old and 32 inches tall. He is amhr registered also. Do you mean just because he is 32 inches and will be an amha horse too that he is no longer a shetland????? he has more pedigree than most AMHA horses that is know parentage. So if I register him amha he is no longer carrying shetland blood??? Minis will never be a blood breed....there are too many variables....they will always be a height breed. Thats jst it.



[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 27, 2005)

A friend of mine has a mare that is registered Part-Falabella, Part Caspian and Part bred Arab!!! Is this a Miniature?? She is also a registered Mini, height 34"?? OK so, is it the "Shetland" tag you are objecting to? There is no way you would have Miniature Horses without it, so, is it OK to have a horse triple registered just so long as none of those registers is Shetland?? We do not have this problem as the Shetlands cannot be shown as Minis over here, the rules are deliberately different to preclude this happening, they have to show as one or the other. Your "Shetlands" are a different breed, I'm not even sure why you kept the name as I think it would have solved a lot of problems if you had just claimed them as an American Breed , which is what they now are, instead of Shetlands. I think if someone objects it's probably just a little bit of green eye ( from what I've seen most "Shetlands" are streets ahead of most minis for refinement) or frustration because a Min only can only show in one set of classes. That is your/their choice- that is what you/they chose to breed. If you believe in what you are doing, go on doing it, without the "sour grapes"


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## Mini_Bre (Mar 27, 2005)

I understand that NOW you can be two things at once however that is one thing imo that should change, however if it never changes it really doesn't bother me. That is just my opinion on the question...and I am just stating my opinion like everyone else however it is probably not what most wanted to hear.

If you have any problem with what I said or want to ask me a question please pm me I will not be replying here anymore.

And KayKay I understand how you misunderstood my post no hard feelings.

Bre

AND I never said that minis didnâ€™t have shetland blood in them! I am aware they didnâ€™t fall from the sky so please quit accusing me of saying such.


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## Karen S (Mar 28, 2005)

Dear Miss Bre,

I wasn't accusing you. Every day there are people out there that think their miniature horses have no "other" blood in them and we all know that isn't true.

If I want to spend my money to registered my really small Shetlands into the AMHR I'm going to do it. If I want to register my Miniatures & Shetlands as Pinto, I'm going to do it. If I wanted to registered my qualifying Shetlands into the new National Show Pony Registry, I'm going to do it. These are all allowable if I choose to spend my money to do so.

Thank you Lewella for a very good post on this! I too want to be able to market my horses in as many associations that I can. Thats good business practice and sense.

What is confusing you (again my opinion) is that you can't show both as a Miniature & Shetland at the same show. This was done in the past before the BOD made a new rule that these small Shetlands that hold Miniature papers must declare how they want to show at a show that does both Miniatures & Shetlands. These horses must qualify under four judges ( just like any other miniature) that wants to show on the national level.

To kaykay, you read exactly what I was trying to type and say. Thank you.

Folks education is the key to understanding this association and any other association that you want to belong to. The newest members of this association has yet to learn the history and some just don't care...that's the reason behind my question as to how long you had been involved.

Miss Bre keep asking questions and keep learning all you can cause someday you just might want to run for a Director of this association and you will need to know these things. Have fun and I look forward to meeting you someday.

Karen Shaw


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## kaykay (Mar 28, 2005)

mini bre

you are absolutely entitled to your opinion and i have to say your not alone. I think what it boils down to is you dont agree that Shetlands and shetland/mini crosses should be able to show against miniatures. I do give you credit for having the guts to post it especially on a pony forum

but i do think they are going to keep gaining in popularity and they will continue to win and that is what will start changing peoples mind. If you want to stay competitive you have to always be looking forward


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## Mini_Bre (Mar 28, 2005)

I know I said I wasn't going to reply again...



but just wanted to tell you all no hard feelings and I really do understand where you are coming from. I shouldn't have posted anyway but me and my big mouth.


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## wpsellwood (Mar 28, 2005)

Since Im on and being nosey



When you register a shetland do you have to pay the same hardship fee like moving an A mini to the R registry or is it cheaper? I dont think Im going to far off the topic. We dont have Shetlands, well I guess we do but they are called minis but was just wondering?

Sometimes you have to have a strong skin to state your opinions on here but all opinions are good to hear, the only time we dont like them is when we dont agree with them


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## lyn_j (Mar 28, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]Yes you do have to pay the same hardship fee if it is the first generation of the shetland to get amhr papers. The double registered ones I have have all come from parents that are double reg but I have a shetland filly that I think is going to stay in size for mini B and if she is 38 or less next year when she is three I will pay the fee since my shetland stallion will be under 34 and I will breed them together.[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## wpsellwood (Mar 28, 2005)

Thanks for info, was just wondering as its all under one unbrella kinda


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## stormy (Apr 1, 2005)

Over and Over it is said that minis are only a height breed. This is no longer true for AMHR. As soon as the registry was closed to hardshipping anything but a shetland or AMHA it became a breed registry not a height registry. Minis came from shetlands, thoroughbreds came from arabs; Morgans, Saddlebreds and standardbreds all came from the same roots but THEY ARE NOW SEPERATE BREEDS as should be the Shetland and the Miniature.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 1, 2005)

The Miniature Horse is not a breed. You can close the book as tight as you like, it is NOT a breed. It has no type to which to conform, it has only height, and the two main American registers disagree on this, even.


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## kaykay (Apr 1, 2005)

although amhr has "closed" it still is not a breed. You can still hardship in from A and aspc so is it really closed?? Kinda but not really. I think like rabbit said you would have to set one specific type. now how hard would that be. Horribly hard!!! We have so many different "types" in the minis I dont know how anyone could pick one and say thats it


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