# Hillary or Obama ???



## Marty (May 5, 2008)

Is anyone watching them?

Jerry is obcessed with watching the candidates every night.

I think this election is going to be very close.


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## Jill (May 5, 2008)

My vote won't go to either of them


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## Ashley (May 5, 2008)

MY vote would never go to a republican



However at this point I am still not sure who I like better. This will be my first election. I skipped out on the last one, never should have.


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## mininik (May 5, 2008)

I'll be voting for Jimmy Buffett again.


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## Sonya (May 5, 2008)

Neither...I am not happy with anyone running, dem or rep...at this point it's coming down to picking the less of two evils...


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## Marty (May 5, 2008)

I'm not real impressed either but at this time I am leaning towards Hillary for 2 reasons so far:

1. I figure that men have run this country for a million years into the ground and if nothing else

I would like to see how a woman at the helm could attempt to bail us out of the mess that's been made. Women didn't get us into wars and into debt, man did. Since women think with the opposite side of the brain than man, it could be a really big plus. At this point, what could it hurt?

2. She's a mom. And she said she would get things moving to bring our soldiers back home asap and as a

mom I believe she will. She understands there are kids over there that should never have been put there in the first place. She understands the value of a child. Our children. As she said last night, she challenged our President to get them out of there right now because he can do it in an instant, and he just refuses.


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## Charley (May 5, 2008)

They seem to be their own worst enemies. They both say lets keep to the reasons to vote for them and then all I hear is what the other one said. To be truthful, I've heard enough....I don't listen much anymore to either of them.


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## Jill (May 5, 2008)

Too bad when Hillary was first lady, she didn't tell the father of her child to take action the first time the World Trade Center was attacked, or when the USS Cole was attacked. Might have been so much better for our Nation and its soldiers.


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## Jill (May 5, 2008)

Marty said:


> Women didn't get us into wars and into debt, man did. Since women think with the opposite side of the brain than man, it could be a really big plus. At this point, what could it hurt?


That's an interesting point of view. I wouldn't bet on woment being any more, or less, level headed than men.

Last week, someone pointed out something to me that struck a chord and that is that nations that trade freely with each other have never gone to war with each other.

For whatever it's worth, I found that very interesting.


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## Leeana (May 5, 2008)

Neither!

I love that icon Jill


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## Jill (May 5, 2008)

Thanks, Leeana









I'll try and not be toooooo obnoxious as the elections draw closer but it'll be hard. Feel so strongly about my political leanings.


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## Reble (May 5, 2008)

Just looking in, if I could, I would vote for Hillary also.

Times have not changed.

Women have always been the head that turns the mens neck.

Lets give us a chance





That is why women have the extra rib ha ha...


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## minimama (May 5, 2008)

Ross Perot! No one running is worth a hill of beans!


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## Crabby-Chicken (May 5, 2008)

OMG,,, ANYTHING will be better the semi conscience idiot that we have had for 8 years. Who in my opinion is to blame for 4000 plus american soldier deaths to make more money for the oil companies.

I will vote for Obama,, proudly an american and STILL have faith that we can fix this country.


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## Marty (May 5, 2008)

Yea Jill sure has the icons, they are hillareous~



Love 'em


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## bingo (May 5, 2008)

Marty said:


> 1. I figure that men have run this country for a million years into the ground and if nothing else
> 
> I would like to see how a woman at the helm could attempt to bail us out of the mess that's been made. Women didn't get us into wars and into debt, man did. At this point, what could it hurt?



I totally agree


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## Dairygirl (May 5, 2008)

I don't believe Bush should be the only one to look at when pointing fingers. Look at that wonderful DICK Chaney. That guy he shot should have shot back. Halaburton ( misspelled but you get the point) has contracts all over the place dealing with the troops. My husband told me that for 20 pieces of laundry the Army gets charged $99 per man to wash them. Wonder how much of that good ole Dick gets. My husband sits in the dark to speak to me at night only because the guys had one lamp in a room, got knocked over and no bulbs to replace it with. How sad is that. I could go on and on about how upset I am with this war but I won't. I'll just be glad when my husband comes home safe.

His unit has lost 4 guys so far and just since Thursday, Fort Polk as lost 3 guys.

i'm all for the one who is going to support our troops.


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## justagirl (May 5, 2008)

mininik said:


> I'll be voting for Jimmy Buffett again.


Me Too !!


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## Ashley (May 5, 2008)

I am very very much against republicans of any sort, they go against two things that are very close to my heart.

Clinton may of had issues, however Bush isnt any better by a long shot.


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## Matt73 (May 5, 2008)

If I was American I'd probably vote for Barack. For the same reason as Crabby Chicken!


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## Marty (May 5, 2008)

QUESTION TIME !!!!!!!!!!!

If Hillary wins, does that make Bill the first lady ???


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## Matt73 (May 5, 2008)

Marty said:


> QUESTION TIME !!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> If Hillary wins, does that make Bill the first lady ???



LOL. Probably the first gentleman.


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## susanne (May 5, 2008)

I will vote for Obama in the Oregon primary, but will proudly vote for either him or Hillary in the National election....ANYTHING but more Republican fraud!

My true vote, however, would have been for John Edwards.


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## nootka (May 5, 2008)

Personally, I'm disturbed by Obama's umm....former alliances.

He may have denounced him, but if you ask me, there's still a lot of that "preaching" that probably was taken to heart.

I don't feel particularly interested in Hillary, either, at this point.

Just NO WAY to Obama. He frightens me, for the same reasons Bush does now. Fundamental (kooky) religious beliefs have no place in the white house.

Liz


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## minih (May 5, 2008)

> OMG,,, ANYTHING will be better the semi conscience idiot that we have had for 8 years. Who in my opinion is to blame for 4000 plus american soldier deaths to make more money for the oil companies.


 I totally agree, I also do not feel America can handle another Republican in office at this point and time. They are killing us!

GO HILLARY!


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## Laura (May 5, 2008)

[SIZE=12pt]At this point in time, my vote goes with Obama. I'll continue to watch, learn and listen until November, but H&$$ would freeze over before I would vote for McBush..oops, sorry, I mean McCain




[/SIZE]


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## kaykay (May 5, 2008)

I dont like any of the candidates republican or democrat



What a lousy choice we have this election. Really disturbing I think. Im democrat but have no faith in Hilary or Obama. And the republican choice?? Ughhhh

I am so disappointed that the democrats put up two people who if you look at it honestly will not ever be elected. I wish the world was different but its not. They may as well skipped the election, saved the billions of dollars and handed it to the republicans unfortunately


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## wildoak (May 5, 2008)

I got that email too Mary Lou,





I'm not thrilled with any of the candidates. I would love to see a woman in the white house, just don't think this is the one for the job. I don't trust her - or Obama for that matter.

Republicans could have done better than McCain. I think most of the honorable people who are qualified for the job are too smart to want it!

Jan


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## Neil (May 6, 2008)

minih said:


> > OMG,,, ANYTHING will be better the semi conscience idiot that we have had for 8 years. Who in my opinion is to blame for 4000 plus american soldier deaths to make more money for the oil companies.
> 
> 
> I totally agree, I also do not feel America can handle another Republican in office at this point and time. They are killing us!
> ...


I debated on whether or not to post the following. Don't get me wrong, I take sending our service men off to war seriously. As a former service man in this country I am very proud of our military.

Somewhere along the way I feel that most Democrats have short memories. Can we afford another Democrat war.

First to put some things in prospective. There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January. In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.

When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have started this war, tell them the following:

FDR (DEMOCRAT) led us into World War II.

Germany never attacked us; Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ... an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman (DEMOCRAT) finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ... an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy (DEMOCRAT) started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.

Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson (DEMOCRAT) turned Vietnam into a quagmire.

From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost ... an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton (DEMOCRAT) went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent. Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. And the Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking.

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.


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## Neil (May 6, 2008)

Ashley said:


> I am very very much against republicans of any sort, they go against two things that are very close to my heart.


And those two things are?


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

Neil,

What you have said is what I'd have liked to if I were as good with words. What you said about the media especially rings true with me. The media does a huge disservice to the American public.

Another thing is with all the social programs democrats are known for, expect higher taxes and anyone sitting on some capital gains right now may seriously want to think about (and speak to an advisor regarding) cashing in while you can still do so at 15%.

Jill



Neil said:


> I debated on whether or not to post the following. Don't get me wrong, I take sending our service men off to war seriously. As a former service man in this country I am very proud of our military.
> 
> Somewhere along the way I feel that most Democrats have short memories. Can we afford another Democrat war.
> 
> ...


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## Bassett (May 6, 2008)

I debated on whether or not to post the following. Don't get me wrong, I take sending our service men off to war seriously. As a former service man in this country I am very proud of our military.

Somewhere along the way I feel that most Democrats have short memories. Can we afford another Democrat war.

First to put some things in prospective. There were 39 combat related killings in Iraq in January. In the fair city of Detroit there were 35 murders in the month of January. That's just one American city, about as deadly as the entire war-torn country of Iraq.

When some claim that President Bush shouldn't have started this war, tell them the following:

FDR (DEMOCRAT) led us into World War II.

Germany never attacked us; Japan did. From 1941-1945, 450,000 lives were lost ... an average of 112,500 per year.

Truman (DEMOCRAT) finished that war and started one in Korea. North Korea never attacked us. From 1950-1953, 55,000 lives were lost ... an average of 18,334 per year.

John F. Kennedy (DEMOCRAT) started the Vietnam conflict in 1962.

Vietnam never attacked us.

Johnson (DEMOCRAT) turned Vietnam into a quagmire.

From 1965-1975, 58,000 lives were lost ... an average of 5,800 per year.

Clinton (DEMOCRAT) went to war in Bosnia without UN or French consent. Bosnia never attacked us. He was offered Osama bin Laden's head on a platter three times by Sudan and did nothing. Osama has attacked us on multiple occasions.

In the years since terrorists attacked us, President Bush has liberated two countries, crushed the Taliban, crippled al-Qaida, put nuclear inspectors in Libya, Iran, and, North Korea without firing a shot, and captured a terrorist who slaughtered 300,000 of his own people. And the Democrats are complaining about how long the war is taking.

The biased media hopes we are too ignorant to realize the facts.

Thank you for having the nerve to say this. I didn't. The stage was set for this war by the Clinton administration long before it actually started.

Hillary Clinton is nothing but a liar. They all tell you what YOU want to hear but she is the worst. Sometimes I don't even feel like voting which is NOT the way to think at all. All I know I would not vote for a Clinton. The country has had enough of them. If I voted Democrat at all it would be for Obama. I am undecided which way to go.


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## Basketmiss (May 6, 2008)

Yeah Neil, I agree!!

Its funny how everyone gripes about Bush but who voted him in?? They were all for him, but then when things get tough he is the biggest pain!! Like a marriage in sickness and in health, well its alot better when things are going good and not so much when they arent but you are supposed to still stick with the marriage!! Dont start bad mouthing it and saying its the worst thing to ever happen!!

He doesnt do anything without it being approved, what about all those senators, congress etc. They let things in like the war then say later, "we never wanted to go to war"!!

Bush does not hold a magic button that he can push whenever he wants and to do whatever he wants...

We went to War to try to stop a terrorist who killed so many over here during 911.. So many thought that a good idea at that time... HUmmmmmm

I am not saying I want men or women to die in war but I will say military people sign up for that life. They know what MIGHT happen ( war) and are ready to fight for their country, if not then dont join the military. I mean thats like being a mother but saying I am only a mother in good times, not when my kids are puking, pooping, screaming etc... it is part of the job...

I would love for a woman to be president, just not THIS woman!! The Clintons have shown us all that they are as dishonest as they come, Why would you want someone like that BACK in office??

One thing for Bush, you havent seen that he has had anyone killed so they couldnt testify against him, he hasnt had many affairs, lied all his life,been involved in lawsuits for BAD things, etc...

He is not a great public speaker but that doesnt mean he is dumb, everyone has their strengths, and Bill Clinton was the biggest butt kisser, great Liar, I mean public speaker and so is his wife..

I would love to have Condaliza Rice in as president but of course she wont run, that is the way it always goes!!

I do not trust Obama, his background and beliefs are too sketchy,pastor? muslim ??? he has now denounced this pastor who had so much influence on him... Hummmmm of course he has when people start questioning it...

I dont care what color or gender someone is.. The right person has to have values, and honesty and the will to run this country, not be on a power trip...


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## SWA (May 6, 2008)

After reading through this thread this morning, Hubby asked me to post this email he received from a good while back.

Here goes:

-------------------------------

Subject: In Just One Year.

In Just one year - - -

This email comes in three parts:

Part 1

In just one year. Remember the election in 2006? Thought you might like to read the following:

A little over one year ago:

1) Consumer confidence stood at a 2 1/2 year high;

2) Regular gasoline sold for $2.19 a gallon;

3) The unemployment rate was 4.5%.

Since voting in a Democratic Congress in 2006 we have seen:

1) Consumer confidence plummet;

2) The cost of regular gasoline soar to over $3.50 a gallon;

3) Unemployment is up to 5% (a 10% increase);

4) American households have seen $2.3 trillion in equity value evaporate (stock and mutual fund losses);

5) Americans have seen their home equity drop by $1.2 trillion dollars;

6) 1% of American homes are in foreclosure.

America voted for change in 2006, and we got it! Remember, it's Congress that makes law not the President. He has to work with what's handed to him.

Quote of the Day........'My friends, we live in the greatest nation in the history of the world. I hope you'll join with me as we try to change it.' -- Barack Obama

Part 2:

Taxes...Whether Democrat or a Republican you will find these statistics enlightening and amazing.

www.taxfoundation.org/publications/show/151.html

Taxes under Clinton

Single making 30K - tax $8,400

Single making 50K - tax $14,000

Single making 75K - tax $23,250

Married making 60K - tax $16,800

Married making 75K - tax $21,000

Married making 125K - tax $38,750

Taxes under Bush 2008

Single making 30K - tax $4,500

Single making 50K - tax $12,500

Single making 75K - tax $18,750

Married making 60K- tax $9,000

Married making 75K - tax $18,750

Married making 125K - tax $31,250

Both democratic candidates will return to the higher tax rates

It is amazing how many people that fall into the categories above think Bush is screwing them and Bill Clinton was the greatest President ever. If Obama or Hillary are elected, they both say they will repeal the Bush tax cuts and a good portion of the people that fall into the categories above can't wait for it to happen. This is like the movie, The Sting with Paul Newman; you scam somebody out of some money and they don't even know what happened.

PART 3:

You think the war in Iraq is costing us too much? Read this:

Boy, am I confused. I have been hammered with the propaganda that it is the Iraq war and the war on terror that is bankrupting us. I now find that to be RIDICULOUS. I hope the following 14 reasons are forwarded over and over again until they are read so many times that the reader gets sick of reading them. I have included the URL's for verification of all the following facts.

1. $11 Billion to $22 billion is spent on welfare to illegal aliens each year by state governments.

Verify at: http://tinyurl.com/zob77

2. $2.2 Billion dollars a year is spent on food assistance programs such as food stamps, WIC, and free school lunches for illegal aliens.

verify at: http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

3. $2.5 Billion dollars a year is spent on Medicaid for illegal aliens.

Verify at: http://www.cis..org/articles/2004/fiscalexec.html

4. $12 Billion dollars a year is spent on primary and secondary school education for children here illegally and they cannot speak a word of English!

verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.0.html

5. $17 Billion dollars a year is spent for education for the American-born children of illegal aliens, known as anchor babies.

Verify at http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

6. $3 Million Dollars a DAY is spent to incarcerate illegal aliens.

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

7. 30% percent of all Federal Prison inmates are illegal aliens.

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

8. $90 Billion Dollars a year is spent on illegal aliens for Welfare & social services by the American taxpayers.

Verify at: http://premium.cnn.com/TRANSCIPTS/0610/29/ldt.01.html

9. $200 Billion Dollars a year in suppressed American wages are caused by the illegal aliens.

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0604/01/ldt.01.html

10. The illegal aliens in the United States have a crime rate that's two and a half times that of non-illegal aliens. In particular, their children, are going to make a huge additional crime problem in the US.

Verify at: http://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0606/12/ldt.01.html

11. During the year of 2005 there were 4 to 10 MILLION illegal aliens that crossed our Southern Border; also, as many as 19,500 illegal aliens from Terrorist Countries. Millions of pounds of drugs, cocaine, meth, heroin and marijuana, crossed into the U. S from the Southern border.

Verify at: Homeland Security Report: http://tinyurl.com/t9sht

12. The National Policy Institute, 'estimated that the total cost of mass deportation would be between $206 and $230 billion or an average cost of between $41 and $46 billion annually over a five year period.'

Verify at: http://www.nationalpolicyinstitute.org/pdf/deportation.pdf

13. In 2006 illegal aliens sent home $45 BILLION in remittances back to their countries of origin.

Verify at: http://www.rense.com/general75/niht.htm

14. 'The Dark Side of Illegal Immigration: Nearly One Million Sex Crimes Committed by Illegal Immigrants In The United States.'

Verify at: http://www.drdsk.com/articleshtml

The total cost is a whopping $338.3 BILLION DOLLARS A YEAR. Are we THAT stupid? If this doesn't bother you then just delete the message.

If, on the other hand, it does raise the hair on the back of your neck, I hope you forward it to every legal resident in the country including every representative in Washington, D.C. - five times a week for as long as it takes to restore some semblance of intelligence in our policies and enforcement thereof.

------------------------------------


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## Ashley (May 6, 2008)

I could not vote for somebody/party that tells thousands of people it is not ok to be them and that we are inferior to the rest of the pop.


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## SWA (May 6, 2008)

Ashley, I hope you do know how much I dearly respect you and your stand on those two specific issues, but to base your decision solely on those two, places the fate of our country over all.

I humbly ask, and in the spirit of friendship (at least in my heart) do you feel you might can find a way to broaden the basis of weighing such a huge impactful decision for the sake of our country's vastly diversified interests overall?





My personal primary concern is the overall SAFETY of our country, our very existence. Then, "how we live as individuals" is secondary, and then, of course "quality of life", but all still just as valid as the next, by all means.





That said though, should we no longer exist at all, (as is the ultimate desire of our nation's enemies), then nothing else really matters anyway.

EDITED for grammatical errors.



At least I hope I gott'em all.


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## minimama (May 6, 2008)

Go Neil!!! Thank you for posting that. The media is playing with the American public so bad. They opnly telll you what they want you to know and steer your thinking accordingly. The facts .....look at the real facts, hopefully BEFORE you vote!


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## whitney (May 6, 2008)

Obama from the beginning. Something I heard on Bill Moyer PBS this weekend was kinda interesting.......

Behold the double standard: John McCain sought out the endorsement of John Hagee, the war-mongering Catholic-bashing Texas preacher who said the people of New Orleans got what they deserved for their sins. But no one suggests McCain shares Hagee’s delusions, or thinks AIDS is God’s punishment for homosexuality. Pat Robertson called for the assassination of a foreign head of state and asked God to remove Supreme Court justices, yet he remains a force in the Republican religious right. After 9/11 Jerry Falwell said the attack was God’s judgment on America for having been driven out of our schools and the public square, but when McCain goes after the endorsement of the preacher he once condemned as an agent of intolerance, the press gives him a pass.

Jon Stewart recently played a tape from the Nixon White House in which Billy Graham talks in the oval office about how he has friends who are Jewish, but he knows in his heart that they are undermining America. This is crazy; this is wrong - white preachers are given leeway in politics that others aren’t.

Which means it is all about race, isn’t it? Wright’s offensive opinions and inflammatory appearances are judged differently. He doesn’t fire a shot in anger, put a noose around anyone’s neck, call for insurrection, or plant a bomb in a church with children in Sunday school. What he does is to speak his mind in a language and style that unsettle some people, and says some things so outlandish and ill-advised that he finally leaves Obama no choice but to end their friendship. We are often exposed us to the corroding acid of the politics of personal destruction, but I’ve never seen anything like this. I’ve never seen this wrenching break between pastor and parishioner before our very eyes. Both men no doubt will carry the grief to their graves.

All the rest of us should hang our heads in shame for letting it come to this in America, where the gluttony of the non-stop media grinder consumes us all and prevents an honest conversation on race. It is the price we are paying for failing to heed the great historian Jacob Burckhardt, who said “beware the terrible simplifiers”.


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## Gini (May 6, 2008)

Neil said:


> minih said:
> 
> 
> > > OMG,,, ANYTHING will be better the semi conscience idiot that we have had for 8 years. Who in my opinion is to blame for 4000 plus american soldier deaths to make more money for the oil companies.
> ...


[SIZE=18pt]AMEN![/SIZE]


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## bingo (May 6, 2008)

SWA said:


> My personal primary concern is the overall SAFETY of our country, our very existence. Then, "how we live as individuals" is secondary, and then, of course "quality of life", but all still just as valid as the next, by all means.


With all due respect, the issues I believe Ashley is talking about does involve millions of people and the safety they have in this country, in fact in many cases their very existence so while you may see it as a individual thing that is secondary many see it as a daily fight for their lives and anything but secondary!


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## Sun Runner Stables (May 6, 2008)

***I feel Very Very strongly about this, my remarks are Not directed towards Any of the wonderful people here on our forum, or ment to be taken as a personal insult, I am using strong words to make my point, and not to hurt anyone- as as much as I rant about religions and such- It's only because they try to impose their views on Me- I wish all to live and let live, and I am very close with both christians and jews, we all have a wonderful time enjoying the others religious views- So please please note this when you are reading this***

Although I rarely agree with her, Ashley and Bingo have a Very true point-

We are no better then '1984' and other such doomsday novels if we let a fear mongering society direct us to what we can and cannot do because it will mean 'safety'.

I personally am more republican minded fiscally, as my family really is a group of capitalist pigs, (as we fondly say) and I feel that many of the welfare/social programs were ment to be a stop-gap Only after the great depression, not the mess it is now-

However I have Very strong feelings on civil rights

(That are Erroding because we need to be Safe, and 'God' says that people who love each other Must be of this and that type and are therefore ineligable for tax benifits of marrige! Kill me!) ,

and women's right to choose,

(If I see just One more "right to life" plate I will puke- our planet is overpopulated as it is- heck Sterallize *Everyone *and make them prove they are mentally, fiscally, and physically able to have and care for kids, I see to many in our hospitals having kids and we Pay them to! These kids are set to fail from the get go, or worse!! I Love kids, but it's My body, and with in reasonable limits, My choice, and no Man or pastor etc etc gets to tell me otherwise!)

I also feel that religion has NO place in the Labs or in scientific reserach! There is So much to discover and learn that could help Thousands, and as far as I am concerned, whatever Is out there gave us the brains to figure it out, we Should! If the darn republicans could stop yammering for all the fundies vote because jesus loves that candidate the best, I would take them more seriously.

So in the end- it's really non of the above for me- But I will most likely vote Republican as I feel the fiscal policy weighs in during our current economy, and McCain has shown some leniency towards my personal issues, despite denying it to protect his extreme religious votes-


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## SWA (May 6, 2008)

bingo said:


> SWA said:
> 
> 
> > My personal primary concern is the overall SAFETY of our country, our very existence. Then, "how we live as individuals" is secondary, and then, of course "quality of life", but all still just as valid as the next, by all means.
> ...


I was not intending to diminish Ashley's stand, merely stating that our country in itself, and ALL OF US who are of AMERICAN BLOOD and AMERICAN CITIZENSHIP, regardless of any of our walks in life, it is the full intent and desire of our "NATION's" enemies to not relent unless and until we of American Blood and Citizenship no longer exist, a number far greater than those who walk within any specific special interest. I most certainly do not see Ashley's stand as an individual that is secondary, I was merely stating my own preference of priority of process toward an ultimate decision, and by NO MEANS meant for that to dictate a protocal for anyone else. I was only trying to illustrate how "I" personally strive to process my own way of deriving to a decision such as this...as opposed to basing solely on two things in particular, when far MORE is just as major in factoring the dynamics overall.

But, in "my" own understanding, I was just trying to say that if we as AMERICANS no longer exist, then nothing else would matter anyways. Regardless of "somebody/party that tells thousands of people it is not ok to be them and that we are inferior to the rest of the pop", regardless of personal religious and/or spiritual beliefs/convictions, regardless of political partisan stances, regardless of race, regardless of gender, regardless of age, regardless of anything. The rights of NONE of that would be a factor of concern if we AS A WHOLE COUNTRY no longer exist.

Our nation's gravest adversaries have made it blatant, that THAT is their ultimate desire, far beyond the many layers of other issues that are underlying all that's been happening with the war, before, during and since.

It's not anyone in particular based on their race, beliefs, lifestyle or anything else that matters to "US" as a citizen of this country, it's the mere fact we are AMERICANS, and for that, in their hearts, we must ALL die.

And in many ways, they are striving for us to take care of "their" problem ourselves. Just look at the other thread on here by Liz (nootka), the China importing thing, the content of products we purchase, unknowing the full extent of chain reactive events that factor into all that goes with that.

It's not just Walmart that's guilty there either. Just walk into almost ANY store, even at the mall where folks of all financial class levels shop at one time or another. Go to any store there in those malls, Sears, JCPenny, Dillard's, Macy's, any of them....look at the labels of products sold there, the MAJORITY of all products sold in most, if not all stores ANYWHERE, are products of imports from countries that are spending OUR OWN MONEY (from those purchases, low cost or not) toward ways of extreme detriment to our American Society as a WHOLE.

And that's just a drop in the bucket of the over all picture.

Another element of using our own dollars against us, is the CITGO company, owned by a man who made public declarations of his full intent (of every cent of CITGO gas/oil purchased by us, using our own American money), to be used toward nothing short of financially supporting our demise through financially supporting our very adversaries.

And that's just another drop in the bucket. It's these kinds of "drops in the bucket" that are most definately slowly but MOST ASSUREDLY filling that bucket up...and it's US doing it to ourselves, because most American's choose not to broaden their concerns beyond what's most personal to them. An act they most definately are counting on.


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## Crabby-Chicken (May 6, 2008)

It is funny to me that the question was which democrat people were choosing to vote for,,, and now there are people on here trying to validate the president and his cabinet that have been in office for 7 years. I will NEVER believe in them. And I used to think that I would vote for a republican, but now feel that I would not vote for one,,, ever. After the economy,,, Katrina,,, the war,,, people feeling like they can't get married because they are not the right sex,,, who cares if you love each other and have been together for years. And the divorce rate is over 50% for men and women. And not looking at stem cell research because the church says not too. Good lord,,, seperation of church and state.... have they ever heard of that???? How about torture,,, get rid of the Geneva Convention,,, no honor,,, then our troops will get no honor if they are captured. Or how about right of Eminent Domain,,, where the supreme court,,, ( 2 appointed by Bush) voted it is fine if your state can make more from taxes on your property by having a Walmart or such on it,, they can take it from you. Yes they have a hearing, and pay you what they deem fair. Not considering that maybe that land has been in your family for 200 years, it is that they can make money on it. Or how about the outing of a CIA agent because they wanted to scare her husband because he wouldn't say there WMD's in Iraq...

People whine because the taxes might get raised.... how do you think that the country pays for things????? As it is now our deficit is through the roof, not when Clinton was in office. We owe more to other countries that we own in our own country. Yes and China is a big one. So I wouldn't worry about lead in toys,, worry about all those loans that they hold that they could call at any time, that we take out to fund the war. Oh but don't say "raise taxes.

And since when did the Clinton's kill someone??? Geez.


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## SWA (May 6, 2008)

Crabby-Chicken said:


> It is funny to me that the question was which democrat people were choosing to vote for,,, and now there are people on here trying to validate the president and his cabinet that have been in office for 7 years.


It's just how the thread evolved, as with any thread, no matter the topic. Layers of elements of the overall dynamics of anything.



Crabby-Chicken said:


> And since when did the Clinton's kill someone??? Geez.


{Sighs}





Ok, I can't even let myself begin with this new leg of the thread... so, I'll just go back to dormant, and hope that what little I have tried to share to this point, is at least taken/perceived (and hopefully accepted) with all the love and concern I have in my heart for all who've posted of theirs here as well.


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## CyndiM (May 6, 2008)

Jill



LOVE the icons!

Right on Neil and SWA! You two said it ALL!


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## barnbum (May 7, 2008)

> Right on Neil and SWA! You two said it ALL!


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## Sonya (May 7, 2008)

McCain basically IS a democrat....so no matter who gets in...it will be a democrat. McCain is very liberal. Although my card says "republican", I don't vote based on party, I vote for whomever I feel will be the best. And our choices sure are limited this time around! I feel bad that this is what we are left with!


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## Cimarron (May 7, 2008)

Well said Neil and SWA!!!






Sheila


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## txminipinto (May 7, 2008)

Thank you Neil!!!

As someone who has several family members who have either served or are serving in this war, Bush did not start it. The SOBs who attacked us started it. Bush has done wonders for us and stood up for the American people when we needed a leader most. Would Clinton(both), Gore, or Obama done the same? Nope. Well, maybe eventually because of the American outcry.

Let's remember Hillary as the First Lady. Not exactly who I want running my country. Gore, HA! A 6 yr old could kick his butt! And Obama? His rumored ties to those who hate Americans is enough for me to vote for Hillary! But I'm voting for McCain. We are the most hated country in the world. I want someone with some miltary experience to lead our country.

Something my husband pointed out to me.....the countries that want to see us all dead have no respect for women and Obama's name would be a welcome mat. I'm not willing to take that risk when we've come so far in our war against terror. I do not want a repeat of 9/11, ever. Bush made a statement to all other countries when he sent my friends and brother in law into Iraq; you will not attack us and walk away unscathed.


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## anita (May 7, 2008)

And thank too you Carin






Anita


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## Pepipony (May 7, 2008)

And since when did the Clinton's kill someone??? Geez.

Too bad , Crabby, that people remember the facts as they want or as their party wants. They dont remember that Clinton DID want to go after Al Queda and that Republicans shot down his requests since the whole Lewinsky drama. They called it, QUOTE, Wagging the Dog. Then Bush had 9 months to do something and told his cabinet that Al Queda wasnt a threat to us.

Right now I think I will vote for Obama. I used to like Hill but she is acting like a spoiled little petulant child. Sorry, but 8 (*%&$#^# years of a spoiled petulant child is MORE than enough. I used to like McCain, a lot, but dang if he is not the person he was a few years back. Cant put my finger on it anymore than to say he is swinging the way the wind blows and NOT how he seemed to be.


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## Crabby-Chicken (May 7, 2008)

YA Pepi!!!!


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## barnbum (May 7, 2008)

> Although my card says "republican", I don't vote based on party, I vote for whomever I feel will be the best. And our choices sure are limited this time around!


I agree. I'd be much more content if there was someone much more conservative running. But McCain will have to do. The Democrats are sick of their choices' antics--so many are voting for McCain. I can't imagine him not winning.

I've taken those surveys to see who matches up to my beliefs and Huckabee would have been my first choice--maybe Mc Cain will pick him for a running mate.


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## whitney (May 7, 2008)

I'm from Michigan and I voted for McCain in the primary as Obama wasn't on the ballot, thinking McCain would be a republican I could live with. I hope his CORE common sense comes back if he's elected and not Obama. I want a US President I can be PROUD of.


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## Crabby-Chicken (May 7, 2008)

And Obama? His rumored ties to those who hate Americans is enough for me to vote for Hillary! But I'm voting for McCain. We are the most hated country in the world. I want someone with some miltary experience to lead our country.

Was Bush or Cheney in the military besides not showing up for national guard duty????

Okayyy why are we the most hated.... maybe because this is what was voted in office. http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/w/...finger_flip.jpg http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:6rj5s-...bush_finger.jpg

And rumored ties,,, let me see glad that is all you can see, is rumors. GOOD way to listen to someone.

I have military people in my family and I would not want them going over there to fight for oil and to make a few in our government rich.

The people that attacked us on 9/11 were from Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. So where are we fighting?

I give up.


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## susanne (May 8, 2008)

So long as we're cheering for "our side"...YAY KIM (Crabby Chicken)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I find it nearly unbelievable that people can take eight years of lying and sending our soldiers to fight for such fraudulent purposes and then ask for MORE!!!

Okay...Bush, Cheney and the rest of you... let me bend this way...will this make it easier for you to do what you have been doing to this nation?

And I cannot believe that anyone would take seriously the rumors spread about Barack Obama over his NAME, etc. Are we really that stupid? Give me a break! Question his lack of experience perhaps, but this is pathetic! In this day and age, people don't want to come across as patently racist, so let's make him look like a threat to national security...

We are the world's most hated nation to a huge extent BECAUSE of this current administration. They have managed to destroy our military and National Guard through complete abuse (why would anyone in their right mind sign up now with stop-loss, etc.?) and took them away from where they were truly needed (New Orleans).

Instead of truly supporting the troops currently fighting and the veterans who have given their all in previous conflicts, money is given instead to Blackwater and mercenaries who need not follow our principles.

No...itt is much easier to question the patriotism of those who do not wear flag pins!

Before anyone comes on here and claims that I am unpatriotic, I ask that you look at those who have drug our nation's most deeply held principles through the mud for the sake of money and personal pride. The war in Iraq NEVER was based upon 9/11 or supposed homeland security.

And what has this administration (I would say Bush, but he is a puppet at best) done to capture Osama Bin Laden? NOTHING! What a farce!

So now we should vote in four more years of the same, only now with an aging Commander in Chief with anger management issues?!


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## SWA (May 8, 2008)

Sonya said:


> McCain basically IS a democrat....so no matter who gets in...it will be a democrat. McCain is very liberal. Although my card says "republican", I don't vote based on party, I vote for whomever I feel will be the best. And our choices sure are limited this time around! I feel bad that this is what we are left with!


I agree. Admittedly, McCain was not my first choice. However, he is one that is pretty much "all encompassing", and quite frankly, given the current times, he is precicely what we NEED to lead us ALL as ONE NATION. One that has the broadest diversity of interests at heart that will enable the greatest potential of UNITING our nation at a point in time that is most crucial! As opposed to the usual "us vs. them" by partisan.

Divide and conquer...something our adversaries are COUNTING ON. Hoping we will all be steadfast on all our own special interests most personal to us as individuals, where we are not allowing ourselves to grow in concern for US AS A NATION. Kinda brings to mind the "Frogs in the boiling pot of water" story. The drops of water are filling the bucket up, and the pot is slowly boiling and nobody is even aware or just don't even CARE.

All I know, regardless of "who" or "what" brought our country to where we are in the now, all I know, is I am a mom of a US Marine, and that Marine is MY ONE AND ONLY CHILD, and I want the man in office WHO WILL BRING HIM BACK TO ME! When time is right and SAFEST FOR ALL OF US to do so, and not a moment before, and especially not a moment longer than necessary! He is there by "HIS" choice ENTIRELY, not by anyone elses. He will be where his heart feels it necessary for the sake of ALL OF US and he will stay there however long that need is there WILLINGLY of his OWN accord, as an American who still BELIEVES IN THIS COUNTRY for all it has stood for, past, present and prayerfully it's FUTURE.

Can we not COME TOGETHER here on the homefront JUST THE SAME as all our family members are doing for all of us "over there"?


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## Frankie (May 8, 2008)

I too have not yet made a decision, because I have yet to hear a candidate talk out of only one side of his/her mouth.



Don't change directions on me, I like to watch them follow one path.

My complaint with ALL of them is the same as each year.

They stand up and say they will get this much money to fix this, that much money to fix that, well crap, how much money have they now spent on the election? If you take all candidates, from the beginning, they are well over the Billion Dollar mark spent just to be our president.

How many kids would that feed in this country?Get health care for the working poor? Medicine for the elderly. I think it is a waste of money, and when I hear them talk about how much they are going to save us and help us as president, I say it should start with them! The election, to me, is by far the biggest waste of money.

There should be a limit. $100,000 per candidate,,,,,,,,,,and do it the old fashion way, on foot, door to door and personally meet the folks voting for them, not just standing in front of them addressing them the same as the other 20,000 people in attendance.

Sorry,,,,,,,,coming down.


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## SWA (May 8, 2008)

Frankie said:


> I too have not yet made a decision, because I have yet to hear a candidate talk out of only one side of his/her mouth.
> 
> 
> 
> Don't change directions on me, I like to watch them follow one path.


Carolyn,

At one point, I too would have agreed with this perspective. But, in after thought...MUCH after thought, I have come to realize that we are not a country of "one path". We are of vast diversified walks of life, and no one path would be good enough for us as a WHOLE. We are ONE NATION, but anything beyond that, even the "under God" is by individual CHOICE.

"So Far".





For the sake of any sort of FUTURE toward that remaining so, we must put our individual differences aside and come together as ONE NATION.

All our families who are fighting side by side "over there" are just as diversified in who they are as individuals as we are here in the home front. Yet, still they are standing as ONE for the overall sake of us ALL.

Whoever leads our nation, at this current point in time, MUST do likewise, and nothing short of that. Our adversaries are seeking to destroy just that. The epitomy of what makes America all that it is... vastly diversied within, yet as ONE, UNITED.


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