# What makes a Tobiano?



## Lauralee (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm going to get several posts started, in order to demonstrate the various pinto patterns to the folks that are showing a desire to learn. Please help me by posting pictures that depict typical TOBIANO.

Trying to avoid examples where it is obvious that the horse carries more than one pattern, in hopes that it can be demonstrated what each pattern looks like. Lets keep this simple so that other folks can learn from it. *Please do not complicate this thread with every color exception to the rule. That will only confuse newbies more.*

So what makes a tobiano? (IN GENERAL)

Tobianos have solid colored faces.

Tobianos have brown eyes.

Tobianos have white stockings to the knees and hocks.

Tobianos have white patterns that run in a vertical fashion.

Tobianos have white patterns that tend to cross the midline of the back.

Here are some examples of TOBIANO:


































Please add pictures of tobiano, and any additional educational tips for identifying the pattern. For those that intend to learn, feel free to ask questions!


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## wantminimore (Feb 18, 2007)

This is Maggie this past summer.






Leslie


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## Capall Beag IRL (Feb 18, 2007)

Thanks for this.

It'll be a great help for those of us who still mix them up.

:aktion033:


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## lilhorseladie (Feb 18, 2007)

Hmmm...I thought I had two, but now I'm not so sure



Oh well I will keep watching the thread and learn. Thank you for doing this.


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## ruffian (Feb 18, 2007)

LDS Midnight Myst - Sorry the photo is dark, but you can see her white markings. She also has a patch on her near side about 6 x 12"






OB Double Dynamic - sorrel pinto stallion - sire is Alvadar's Double Destiny, solid Buckskin.


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## wildoak (Feb 18, 2007)

FHF Painted Echo - doesn't show his face, but it's solid with brown eyes.

Jan


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## Lauralee (Feb 18, 2007)

It is important to remember that TOBIANO tends to stop the pattern at the knees and hocks. You will see four even white socks, and color will come down to the knees all around. If you have a horse with white going WAY over the knees or hocks, then there is something else (probably splash) going on there.

Just FYI.


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## Dona (Feb 18, 2007)

Please remember, the guidelines that Lauralee has given for Tobiano is to be used as a "baseline" to start at. The amount of white markings on Tobianos can vary greatly. You can have a "minimum expressed" Tobiano that has only a spot of white on it. And you can have a "maximum expressed" Tobiano which can be almost pure white expect for a dark head!



: There is a wonderful page in one of my color books showing all the different variations of the different patterns....Tobiano, Splash, Frame, Sabino. If my scanner worked, I would scan these variations for you & post here....but I can't until I get my scanner working again.





Here is Sweetie....a typical Tobiano. Dark head, brown eyes, white markings over back & socks/stockings. The Tobianos that have more white than her...would have higher stockings & if the tail is multi-colored, the, the top is white & the end is colored. (looks like it's been dipped in paint)


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## Kendra (Feb 18, 2007)

North Stars Valdez Y Basan






Circle J Robin & 2006 filly (sired by Valdez) Circle J Kara


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## Sunrise Valley (Feb 18, 2007)

Lucky Four Anita Margarita


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## Suzie (Feb 18, 2007)

The colt in my Avadar is a tobiano. Dark face, chest shield, white to the knees. He is from a smoky black stallion and a dun tobiano mare.


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## Songcatcher (Feb 18, 2007)

wantminimore said:


> This is Maggie this past summer.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This lovely filly obviously has Tobiano, but also carries another pattern as Tobiano alone would not produce face white.



> The colt in my Avadar is a tobiano. Dark face, chest shield, white to the knees. He is from a smoky black stallion and a dun tobiano mare.


 Once again, this colt obviously is Tobiano, but also carries another pattern as well.


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## Ashley (Feb 18, 2007)

Here is my tobi. When bred to a solid she typically has a solid. When bred to a pinto(they have been homozygous) she has pinto typically with splash or frame added.


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## Getitia (Feb 18, 2007)

Buckeye WCF Hot Toddy

Buckskin Tobiano


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## ForMyACDs (Feb 18, 2007)

Here was our rescue "Elvis" a typical tobiano:


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## VernB (Feb 18, 2007)

I like these color threads!!! :aktion033: These are My 2 Tobiano mares.


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## Becky (Feb 18, 2007)

Here is a classic homozygous tobiano, JEM Vegas Lady.






Her daughter, Redrock Sasakwa, exhibits tobiano pattern except for one blue eye which she gets from her daddy, Redrock Incognito!






Here is an example of a more minimally marked tobiano. Mini Bits Kandi Kisses. She only has body white on her right side. White on 4 legs. No white crossing the back. Many people mistakenly call this overo when it is not. She does have a small white snip indicative of another pattern, but her body says tobiano.






Here is an example of an even more minimally marked tobiano. Cuddlesome Melody Of The Heart. Melody only has two hind socks and a few white hairs in her tail, however, she is genetically a tobiano and has proven it with her foals.


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## Mona (Feb 18, 2007)

Here are several examples of tobianos...

This is "Rainy". She is a bay(clipped out looking black) tobiano. Her dam is a homozygous (for tobiano) silver pinto, and her sire is a bay pinto.









This is "Angel". She is a grulla minimal white tobiano. Her dam is a dun minimal pinto, and her sire is a black pinto.









This is "Bonus". He is a bay tobiano. His dam is a solid bay, and his sire is a black pinto.









This is "Moose". He is a bay roan tobiano. His dam is a homozygous(for tobiano), and his sire is a solid buckskin roan.






This is "Princess". She is a sorrel, homozygous(for tobiano) pinto. Both parents were sorrel pinto.









This is "Victor". He is a silver tobiano. His dam is a sorrel pinto, and his sire is a bay pinto.









This is "Jayleen". She is a blue roan tobiano pinto. Her dam is a black homozygous (for tobiano) pinto, and her sire is a solid buckskin roan.









This is "Sassy". She is a buckskin pinto. Her dam is a solid buckskin, and her sire is a grey(going white)pinto, but I do not know his birth color.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 18, 2007)

Nice horses....

Tobiano does not produce face white.

None.

So, if your horse has face white it may well _have_ Tobiano but it also has another pattern.

And this thread was started to show Tobianos only, in order to educate.

The other thing that needs clearing up is that a horse being H/Z for Tobiano does not preclude it having other patterns as well, and I can already see a number that do have other patterns, even though they do not have face white.

The fact is you will be very hard pushed to find any horse, especially in Minis , that only has one pattern- in fact I would say the most likely contender so far is Becky's Melody as she is showing so little white that it is unlikely she has any other pattern- if she had had she probably would have expressed more white.


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## Minxiesmom (Feb 18, 2007)

I am learning lots. The second picture in VernB's post...this horse has a star and snip, similiar to my horse. You said tobiano has solid face only. What does a little face white indicate?


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## Suzie (Feb 18, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Nice horses....Tobiano does not produce face white.
> 
> None.
> 
> ...


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Feb 18, 2007)

To clarify this is what APHA considers tobiano:

The dark color usually covers one or both flanks.

Generally, ALL FOUR legs ARE white, at LEAST below the hocks and knees.

Generally, the spots are regular and distinct as ovals or round patterns that extend down over the neck and chest, giving the appearance of a shield.

Head markings are like those of a solid-colored horse--solid, or with a blaze, strip, star or snip.

A tobiano may be either predominantly dark or white.

The tail is often two colors.

Hope that doesn't confuse anyone but wanted to clarify that tobianos CAN have all four white legs and CAN have facial markings with just the tobiano pattern

With that said, here are our tobianos:


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 18, 2007)

Nope, sorry, Tobiano , on it's own does not produce face white.

The APHA is wrong, it is a simple as that, just in the same way that the AMH/R often get their colours wrong, the APHA has got it's patterns wrong.

Wish they would enter the 21st Century- but what can you do??

Tobiano inhibits white forward of the chest/shoulder, thus, with Tobiano alone, you do not get any white on the face.

But, as said, I have only seen a couple of horse that were Tobiano alone- and they were minimals.

So, basically, all your animals have another pattern- looks like Sabino- going on.

Sabino is thought to be the most likely culprit for "normal" face and leg markings that are now known to be a minimally expressed Pinto pattern.

Thus the sudden appearance of Pinto Arabs and TBs


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## wantminimore (Feb 18, 2007)

Where would one go to find the correct definition of Tobiano since APHA and Equusite.com is wrong?

Leslie


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Feb 18, 2007)

I found this at VGL (veterinarian genetic lab) at UC Davis on tobiano:

Gene TO: Tobiano Spotting Pattern

Several different white spotting patterns exist in horses, but so far only that of tobiano (Fig. 2E) has been clearly shown to be conditioned by a single gene. Tobiano spotting, symbolized by TO, is a variable restricted pattern of white hair with underlying pink skin which can occur with any coat color. The pattern is present at birth and stable throughout life. In general, white extends from the neck crest, withers on top of the croup in an apparent top-to-bottom distribution on the body. The white areas may merge to form an extensive white pattern of generally smooth outline. The legs are white, but the head is usually dark except for a facial marking pattern.


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## kenna (Feb 18, 2007)

But... solid horses with no pinto close in their background can and do have snips, blazes, stripes, stars, etc. I've always heard that Tobianos have a predominately dark face but can have these markings with no other pattern.


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## KanoasDestiny (Feb 18, 2007)

Thought this site might be helpful. It lists the charactoristics, and then shows pictures. Some of the pictures do have stripes and stars, and list the pattern as Tobiano.

http://www.spanishjennet.org/patterns.shtml


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## Reble (Feb 18, 2007)

This is Rowdy was tested Positive for Tobiano: Homozygous Pos ( TT) Also has ink spots


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## ThreeCFarm (Feb 18, 2007)

This is OMP Pizazzs Yessiree Bob:






He has splint boots on his front legs in this photo:






For those who insist tobianos can have face white and still not carry any other pattern, how do you explain QH/Paints? AQHA Quarter Horses with generation after generation of only "solid" breeding, with "no Paint," still sometimes produce Paints! And what kind of Paints are they? Overos! They all come from parents who appear solid with the exception of face white, but are really minimal overos, thus they are producing overo foals. Same thing with minis. White markings on the face are indicative of some form of overo.

I have to admit, I'm not into QHs anymore, so I don't know the correct terminology for the "crop outs," but I do know AQHA now registers them. Anyway, this was about color.


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## Loess Hills (Feb 18, 2007)

This is our* lab-tested homozygous tobiano mare* - she has white on her face and under her chin. Her first foal was a bay tovero with a partial blue eye.











So is she Tobiano or Tovero, or Splash?


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## Songcatcher (Feb 18, 2007)

Once testing is available for Splash and wider testing available for Sabino, this will all be easier to understand. Meanwhile, many will continue to disagree with each other. I hold to the opinion that ANY face white is the result of another gene other than Tobiano.

Being homozygous for Tobiano does NOT mean that they cannot have another pattern present also. Just the same as a homozygous Black can also have Cream, Agouti, and Silver added to the mix to create a Silver Buckskin.


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## Loess Hills (Feb 18, 2007)

Songcather - - you have a diplomatic and common sense approach to things. Always enjoy reading your posts!


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## CJMM6 (Feb 18, 2007)

Our homozygous stallion, L&J Excessive Style






Our red/white mare, Moss Grove Lightin Lady & her colt, CJMM Painted Noble Spirit






Our mare, Moss Grove--CJMM Painted Dancer


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## kimie28 (Feb 18, 2007)

Here is my beauty queen: Four Pines Strike My Fancy


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## love_casper (Feb 18, 2007)

Here are my beautiful Tobiano girls.



:

The black is Sugar, the buckskin is her daughter Princess.

Sugar's markings are pretty minimal, compared to Prin's. You can see how the white is on her withiers, the white in her tail, the ermine spots.
















On princess, she's got black around her chestnuts, ermine spots, white from above (seen on top of butt), solid colored head. typical tobiano.
















these color threads are so fun and informative, thanks!


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## sedeh (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm still not convinced that Tobiano's can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbitfizz and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this. :bgrin

In the mean time......here are some of my tobiano's

Dream






Heir






Lily






Lacy and mom(Desi)











both have facial markings but certainly both look tobi to me. :bgrin


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## Miniequine (Feb 18, 2007)

Lauralee, Thanks, this is always interesting!!!

Here is my tobiano, He's LWO neg, Homozygous black, solid face

He does have one solid leg... What does that mean???


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Feb 18, 2007)

> I'm still not convinced that Tobiano's can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbitfizz and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this.


I agree with you 100%, I find it very hard to believe that ALL of those horses out there are technically overos..


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## Capall Beag IRL (Feb 18, 2007)

I'm confused



:

This is Capall Beag Tinkerbell, who i have been calling a sorrel & white pinto but now ??????

Help please











She has brown eyes and some sorrel colouring through her tail but her left side is completely white.

thanks


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## Songcatcher (Feb 18, 2007)

Capall Beag IRL said:


> I'm confused
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Of course she is Pinto. Tobiano, Splashed White, Sabino, and Frame (LWO) are all forms of Pintos. Your mare appears to me to be Tobiano + either Splash or Sabino or both.


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## chandab (Feb 18, 2007)

sedeh said:


> I'm still not convinced that Tobiano's can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbitfizz and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this. :bgrin


Believe or don't believe, but here's a link to a website for upto date information on color and color patterns.

http://www.equinecolor.com/

They describe the base colors, their modifiers and the "white patterns".


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 18, 2007)

QUOTE(sedeh @ Feb 18 2007, 04:41 PM)

I'm still not convinced that Tobianos can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbits and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this.

You are not alone, but it is the most generally held view- not only that Tobianos- but that NO horse has "normal" white markings- hence, as I said, the sudden appearance of Pinto Arabs and Tbs.


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## Latika (Feb 18, 2007)

This is my Tobiano, as far as I can tell and have read, he is typical tobiano markings, & solid head. Sire is Blue Roan, dam is Buckskin Pinto, am guessin she is Tobiano, though have no pics of her that show it clearly.

YP Major Flashbacks Sabaar












I also thought that Tobiano's could have normal face markings, seeing as breeds that carry no broken colour genes are able to have stars, snips, blazes etc. for eg. purebred arabians. The only pinto arabians are not pure, except for those who have splash or sabino, and have enough to be reg as pinto but rarely pass on the markings to offspring (from what I have been told).


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## Lewella (Feb 18, 2007)

Like the other patterns Tobiano has various levels of expression. A horse that is tobiano alone can have 4 completely white legs without assistance from any other pattern. There are tested minimal tobianos with as little leg white as two rear cornets. Minis are one of the few breeds capable of restricting tobiano expression to the point of causing a tobiano to have solid legs. (American and UK Shetlands are also both capable of this but it is a rarity in big horse breeds).

Tobiano alone will have crisp edged markings. Many tobianos are also sabino even if they do not show sabino face white.

Just because an article online (based of APHA's descriptions of pattern which are totally inaccurate) says a tobiano can have face white doesn't mean that the tobiano pattern genetically causes face white. Tobiano does not cause face white. Face white on a tobiano indicated the presence of one of the other pinto patterns - most often the culprit is sabino.

For those who don't believe that "normal" face white is the result of sabino need only look at some Sb1 tested Tennessee Walking Horses to see that sabino is indeed the cause of many "normal" markings. Also go take a peak at some of the Maximum White Sabino Thoroughbreds and their parents and produce. Most sabinos with "normal marking" level expression are only going to produce that level but crossed to the right mate that normal expression can explode into pinto level expression - ie Crop Out pintos.

For those that are confused by this or having trouble accepting it take a step back and throw the term "overo" from your brain because it really is a meaningless term genetically. It is a blanket term for three patterns - Splash, Frame and Sabino. Pinto level expression for all of these patterns is the exception, not the rule. Frame can't create pinto level expression without help from one of the other patterns, Splash needs to be homozygous to create pinto level expression, sabino is a complex that require in most cases several gene pairs to line up right to create pinto level expression (the exception being Sb1 which when homozygous creates maximum white expression with no assistance but this is rare in miniatures).

As others have recommended - http://www.equinecolor.com is a great site. http://www.horsecolor.com is another very good site.


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## CheyAut (Feb 19, 2007)

This is Tracker...
















Ruby has sabino in her (roaning and face white ect) but still, she exhibits nice tobiano pattern so thought I'd show her...





















Jessi


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## Sandee (Feb 19, 2007)

I was so confused when I first got into pintos and I'm not sure that even after taking a class in genetics for breeders that I understand much more. This thread is certainly interesting. Here's my boy that is evidently tobiano even though the white does not cross his back but only a tiny thin area in his mane.











My filly must have a more than toby in her even though I thought she was tobiano so I'll post her elsewhere.


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## capall beag (Feb 19, 2007)

Here are my 2,

I have been told both have the sabino pattern too but I don't know if that is so!

First

Dimunitives Theraly Over the Moon(with a woeful clip job).........I did fix it afterwards

aka Miss Kitty






Second is my stallion

Garners Freedom of Boogerman


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## Lewella (Feb 19, 2007)

White always crossing the back/topline on tobianos is one of many color Myths. Many, many tobianos do not have white over their topline. Many homozygous tobianos do not have white over their topline.

Shape and placement of white are both indicators of pattern. It can take years of study to be able to pick up the little nuances.


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## sedeh (Feb 19, 2007)

chandab said:


> sedeh said:
> 
> 
> > I'm still not convinced that Tobiano's can't have "normal" facial markings like star/strip/snip. There are multiple solid horses that have no Pinto in their breeding that have facial markings. It seems if what rabbitfizz and songcatcher are saying is really true than most horses must carry sabino or other overo color patterns.....and I just don't think it's true. I think it will be interesting to see as our color genetics become more defined and testing more prevalent what comes of this. :bgrin
> ...



Thanks for the link! Has been a good read.....color patterns have always been a weak point for me. Still trying to make sense of it all.. :bgrin


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## EAD Minis (Feb 19, 2007)

*Hears One Ritz-C-Kid. I always thought he was a red roan pinto but others have corrected me and said he is a Tobiano. I love him and think he is just gorgeous any ways. Hear he is



: *






_Other side:_


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## Songcatcher (Feb 19, 2007)

One Ritz-C-Kid said:


> *Hears One Ritz-C-Kid. I always thought he was a red roan pinto but others have corrected me and said he is a Tobiano. *
> 
> *
> *


*
:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: He is a Red Roan. Red is a color. Roan is a pattern. He is a Pinto. That is a pattern. He appears to have both the Tobiano pattern and the Sabino pattern. BOTH are PINTO patterns. *



*: Horses are not limited to just one pattern.*


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## Ashley (Feb 19, 2007)

HE isnt a roan...........he is sabino makeing him look like a roan.


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## Songcatcher (Feb 19, 2007)

Ashley said:


> HE isnt a roan...........he is sabino makeing him look like a roan.


The Sabino is quite obvious, but I don't know why you say he isn't Roan. His head APPEARS to be much darker/solid than the rest of his body which is Roan. Maybe you are seeing something I am not.


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## Ashley (Feb 19, 2007)

On my screen his head dosent appear to be any darker then other areas of his body that are not affected by the sabino.......like neck, certian areas on his legs.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 20, 2007)

Since we have seen lots of pictures of this gelding now I have to say I agree with Ashley- this horse is a Red Tobiano+ Sabino - I do not think he is a Roan either, I never have.


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## Songcatcher (Feb 20, 2007)

OK, I am perfectly willing to concede that he may not be Roan. Some know/have seen more of this horse than I. However, that was not my main point. Let's leave Roan out of the equation.



> I always thought he was a red roan pinto but others have corrected me and said he is a Tobiano.


Being a Red Pinto does not mean he is not a Tobiano (although he obviously has other genes at work as well). Tobianos are Pintos. That was my point.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 20, 2007)

I had not realised that was in question- surely that point is understood??

Am I missing something.


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## Mona (Feb 20, 2007)

When she said she was calling him a red pinto, and someone "corrected" her telling her he was in fact a red tobiano, I am assuming she is referring to them "expanding" on the pinto pattern. Regardless...there is no reason to get all huffy about it...we all have to start our color/pattern learning experience somewhere.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 20, 2007)

Right, but he is a Red Pinto, that is perfectly acceptable, - it is the pattern that is Tobiano + Sabino, so we are all arguing at cross purposes.

Nothing new there, then!!


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## Mona (Feb 20, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Right, but he is a Red Pinto, that is perfectly acceptable


Yes, I agree, but I think this young gal thought she was saying something wrong, because when she said red pinto, she had been "corrected" by someone else, saying he was tobiano, also correct, but expanding more on the patterns. LOL! Also, I am not argueing, I am just trying to explain what I felt this gal was asking, or trying to ask in regards to her horse, his pattern, and what she had been told about it.



:


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