# Had Stifle Surgery...



## fourluckyhorseshoes (Jun 21, 2011)

Hi Everyone-

I am/was planning on sending my mini to be cart trained next month, when I remembered that my mini had leg surgery before I bought him. I went through the health records the owner gave me when I purchased him--

In August 2007 he began having problems with his _left_ stifle, in November 2007 he had the surgery done , I'm assuming the medial patellar ligament was cut. Then in January he was having occasional locking in the _right_ stifle through July where it was locking once a week. In August of 2008 he had surgery done on the right stifle.

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From our experience (purchased in July 2010) he has never been lame, no popping/locking, or any signs of lameness. I am thinking this is the genetic type of locking stifles since he had it when he was 2-3ish. I've read its like "growing pains." We will be having a vet come out in a few days to do his Coggins, and we will ask her when she comes out if he will be fit to go into cart training. We have lunged him a bit, small jumps, trails and he has been fine.

Do you think he will be able to handle cart training? Any precautions I need to take or tell the trainer? Thanks for your help.


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## rabbitsfizz (Jun 21, 2011)

So long as he is in good condition and the trainer can be trusted to take it slow I can see no problems with his pulling a cart, but I am sure Leia will be along soon- her older gelding, Kody, has had stifle surgery and was harness trained before the surgery and has been in work afterwards as well, so she can speak form an "up close and personal" viewpoint on this.

I had a mare who was a chronic, fully locked out, roll her over so she can get up, stifle locked girl, and she was not harness trained until after surgery, she was just fine.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Jun 21, 2011)

During the 6-8 week healing process immediately after surgery exercise is restricted. Beyond that point, no restrictions are needed.

At this point the ligament has actually reattached, just longer than it used to be.

Dr Taylor


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## supaspot (Jun 21, 2011)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> During the 6-8 week healing process immediately after surgery exercise is restricted. Beyond that point, no restrictions are needed.
> 
> At this point the ligament has actually reattached, just longer than it used to be.
> 
> Dr Taylor



thats very interesting , I didnt realise it re-attaches , are there any long term affects from the surgery ...arthritis , unstable joint?


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## fourluckyhorseshoes (Jun 21, 2011)

I've read arthritis is a possibility in some cases, but I'm not sure. I hope not.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 21, 2011)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> At this point the ligament has actually reattached, just longer than it used to be.


There seems to be some difference in opinion about that among veterinarians.



I know when Kody's ligament was cut it retracted VERY far up in the leg, way too far to ever have reattached I would think. The vet palpated and had me feel how far up it was and said that while he wanted the horse moved around to prevent any possible reattachment, he really didn't think it was a possibility in this case.

I talked to every single vet in my area (and quite a few online) when trying to find someone to perform the surgery for a reasonable price and got lots of different "takes" on what the risks were, how to rehab the horse, and what precisely goes on in the healing process. At this point my suspicion is no one really knows!







supaspot said:


> are there any long term affects from the surgery ...arthritis , unstable joint?


Most sources state that early-onset arthritis is very likely but I wonder sometimes if that's a result of the surgery or something that results from all the stress the joint was under prior to the surgery.



It's kind of a "chicken or the egg" thing, you know?

There is some instability in the joint after the procedure as you've cut one of the three supporting ligaments that stabilize the patella but I'm told over time scar tissue will fill in and help stabilize the area. One surgeon who was extremely reluctant to perform the procedure wanted the horse on complete stall rest for *90 days*



after the desmotomy so he wouldn't move around and cause damage to the joint before it was stable. I told her his soundness wouldn't matter at that point because he'd be stark raving mad and found someone else. Of course other, more old-school vets thought the horse could be put back to full work after only a couple of days and I mentally told those guys to take a hike as well. I mean, honestly, people!





The reality was my horse was VERY sore after the procedure (I would be too with a matching set of incisions in my knees!) and it took him several weeks to adjust to not locking and begin to establish new movement patterns. I followed his lead and kept his turnout restricted until I was sure he was okay then we eased back into exercise with hand-walking and ground-driving until his fitness and soundness were up to par again. I tried to keep him on straight lines only and avoided all pivoting, jumping, circling, sidepassing or backing for a good long time per the unanimous instructions of every veterinarian I consulted and my own good judgement. About three months after the surgery he was driving and back to full work and it probably would have been sooner if he hadn't been on stall rest most of the winter after a failed stifle procedure in the fall. It also took longer because this horse had been chronically locking for eight years at that point and had a LOT of rebuilding/remuscling/relearning to do. A youngster who's just started locking would probably be up to "full capacity" much more quickly. It also took longer to return to full work because Kody's version of full work was extremely tough!



He was a Preliminary level combined driving horse, not a 4-H project or occasional weekend warrior. He would have been up to that level of work much sooner.





Many reining horses have this procedure done as a preventative measure (which I strongly disagree with) but clearly they are capable of performing some very intense movements afterwards. I think especially a few years after the horse had the surgery you are probably fine to do most things, I'd just avoid a lot of roundpenning and lunging as that places unnecessary lateral stress on the joints. We're lucky with these minis- their sheer lack of WEIGHT makes this procedure a bit less risky than for a large Quarter Horse or Tennessee Walker. They aren't as likely to pop something out of place flinging their weight around.

I definitely don't regret having it done for my driving horse. My only regret is that I didn't have it done sooner as the locking placed terrible stress on his body which he is paying for now. I think the surgery is definitely the lesser of two evils for a horse as badly afflicted as he was.

Leia

P.S.- If you haven't already, I would put this horse on a preventative course of joint supplements. They are helping to keep Kody sound and comfortable!


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## supaspot (Jun 21, 2011)

I know Im being dense here but is it good or bad if the ligament re-attaches ? your vet wanted him moved but other vets say restrict the exerecise ... as minis are not overly active while in the pasture Im surprised they need to be restricted , mine can be quite lazy anyway lol

also can I ask .. what was the failed procedure he'd had previously ? Ive read that when one stifle is cut the other one often starts locking up so did you have  both legs done ? Id guess your boy would not flex through pure habit after 8 years of locking , must cause pain and stiffness in their backs too , I bet hes very happy now so it was well worth it

I have to say Im shocked that this is done to reining horses as preventative measure...that just cannot be right


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## Performancemini (Jun 21, 2011)

We have a 19 year old gelding that's left stifle has locked up all his life (generally when stalled overnight or longer). Once we get him to "pop" it back where it belongs he seems to be fine until the next occurance. It showed up after we purchased him as a two year old. The first year, occasionally the right would lock too (not at the same time). The right quit locking after about a year. At that time our Vet did not want to perform surgery on him since both would lock up (don't know why or understand that). We never did anything about it (ignorantly?) and used him successfully in driving in pleasure, roadster, draft hitch and chariot. We retired him about two years ago when we began to notice considerable discomfort on his part when having to manuver to left; especially in the hitch doing "swings" to the left (it is the left stifle) and hand gallops to the left on the Chariot. He shows discomfort in the left leg, hip and rear part of his spine upon pressure. He moves naturally otherwise. Perhaps he should have had the surgery in his left at some time? Maybe he would have been able to go on a little longer. I sure miss driving him!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 21, 2011)

supaspot said:


> I know Im being dense here but is it good or bad if the ligament re-attaches ? your vet wanted him moved but other vets say restrict the exerecise ...


My understanding is the point of the surgery is to sever the ligament so it can never lock again. The surgery is done because the ligament is too long or lax and efforts to contract it through exercise or scarring have failed. I wouldn't think you'd want it to reattach! The vets I spoke with said they wanted the horse on stall rest to keep the joint itself stable but needed him hand-walked a couple times a day to make sure the ends of the ligament did not become adhered. It was supposed to be brief, easy hand-walking in a straight line then back to stall rest.



supaspot said:


> as minis are not overly active while in the pasture Im surprised they need to be restricted , mine can be quite lazy anyway lol






Clearly you haven't met my minis!



I did notice that the UK/Irish minis I saw tended to laze about, but then again they had large grass pastures and 24/7 turnout. Ours are on smaller dry lots and many are stalled in the evenings so when you turn them out they get quite excited.



Both my boys have large paddocks but the colt still tears around like a maniac for half the day and Kody used to spend most the day attacking his giant ball both before and after surgery. I've noticed now that the youngster is gelded Kody no longer rough-houses with him



but they do get to running laps together sometimes.



supaspot said:


> also can I ask .. what was the failed procedure he'd had previously ? Ive read that when one stifle is cut the other one often starts locking up so did you have both legs done ?


In October of 2007 Kody had the procedure where they go in with a scalpel and split the ligament and then you work them a whole bunch to encourage scarring. It changed the pattern of his locking alright, but it made it worse! I was just sick. By March of 2008 I felt we had no choice left and took him in for the desmotomy where the ligament is completely severed. Both procedures were done bilaterally as Kody locked equally in both hind legs. He has never locked another step in his life and the joy in his eyes when he began to realize that was priceless. It brought me to tears.



supaspot said:


> Id guess your boy would not flex through pure habit after 8 years of locking , must cause pain and stiffness in their backs too , I bet hes very happy now so it was well worth it


I'd worked hard to encourage him to be supple and as long as he was moving he was fine, but as soon as he was out of harness he'd be locking again. He had major chiropractic issues and wore his hind hooves in very odd patterns, both of which VANISHED once he got used to moving normally. Unfortunately the damage was done to his back and hocks- he injured his overstrained back barely a year later and was out of harness for two years and is now developing arthritis in his hocks.



Seeing what he's gone through is why I am so vehement on the subject of not breeding horses with even a hint of UFP. No horse is good enough to make it worth potentially passing on such a dehibilitating condition!

If they already have it there's no reason they can't be useful, wonderful horses after surgery. But don't breed it on to another generation.





Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 21, 2011)

Performancemini, I understand exactly what you're going through and am so sorry.



It breaks your heart when you have to retire one who isn't mentally ready for it! Have you had him looked at by a chiropractor or equine massage practicianer? Is he on good joint supplements? I think those three things are almost mandatory for horses who lock even occasionally.



Performancemini said:


> The right quit locking after about a year. At that time our Vet did not want to perform surgery on him since both would lock up (don't know why or understand that).


It's that old thing of if you treat one leg, you'll usually notice the other one beginning to lock later as the OP's horse did so they usually do both or neither. I'm not sure why that is except that maybe once they are no longer favoring the weaker leg they'll begin to notice the other one has a problem and favor it?

Leia


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## Performancemini (Jun 22, 2011)

Leia: Sad to admit we have not been financially able to try chiropractor or massage for him-with this economy something else always seems to take the top of the list. Sounds sad if we love him and his health and comfort should take a top place-but there it is.



It is something I would still like to look into.I plan to get a good joint sup for him and get him going on it. Knew more about that in the past and had had him on one. Shame on me for not keeping it up.



I do remember hearing about the other leg make get worse if the one was treated. Our current vet says there does seem to be some issue with the right leg. Probably from compensating on it to help the left effected one. I know he seems to miss being in the midst of things.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 22, 2011)

Aw, PMini, that's hard! I'm always grateful with these little ones that they take so much smaller doses of the expensive medications than the big guys. Heck, my equine massage lady only charges me what she would for a large dog rather than the horse rate!



Chiro is around $60 in my area and a one-time session might be all he needs. See if you can get him started on the joint meds, that by itself would probably make a lot of difference after a few weeks and a $40 container goes a LOOOOONG way with a mini.





Leia


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## Performancemini (Jun 22, 2011)

Leia: Thanks, I will get on it! He has been too good a boy all these years too not deserve more care.



(our mare, his team-mate) too. I think I will look further into a chiropractor. A friend has one. I think she did say it was about $60 for a session. I should at least have one session and see what the prognosis is. Thanks!


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## Performancemini (Jun 22, 2011)

Leia: Just wanted to add tonight that I started him on an excellent glucosamine product. I also started the mare and my mother's 11 yr.old gelding who sometimes seems a bit stiff after riding in the trailer or standing in the stall too long. I hope I am not overdoing it by giving it to the 11 year old. The mare is 18 and has had an active life.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 23, 2011)

Performancemini said:


> I hope I am not overdoing it by giving it to the 11 year old.


Kody has been on it since he was five or six because with his stifle issues and all the work he was doing, I figured it would be stupid not to take every preventative measure I could think of. I've upped his dose within the last year from the minimal maintenance level to a higher "performance level" as he's now having some discomfort in his hock and it seems to have helped. I know it kept my Arab going for years!

Turbo will be on it as soon as he begins doing heavy work. Again, I'm simply not going to take chances.

Heck, *I'M* on the stuff! LOL. It makes my prematurely-creaky knees behave themselves.

Leia


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## fourluckyhorseshoes (Jun 23, 2011)

Leia- what is the name of the supplement you are using for Kody and yourself?


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## Performancemini (Jun 23, 2011)

Not sure what Leia is using for her and her horse(s); but I AM actually using a human one on ours. My husband has been on it over a year. His knees were so bad he would buckle at times and at time collapse for a second to the ground.



Now there is NOTHING!!!



A horse friend uses it too and had put her minis that had problems or possible problems on it (low dose and slow) and it has been great. It's a bit pricey; but not anymore so for the minis than for a human. And the company's products are in the Physician's Desk Reference



. I am not sure I can put the name out in front on the site as you cannot purchase it except through someone else who gets it or by signing on to purchase (all legit; no hassles of any kind). Anyway-it works for us.



They minis eat the tabs out of my hand like candy! (I give them with their "meals").


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## supaspot (Jun 23, 2011)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> At this point the ligament has actually reattached, just longer than it used to be.
> 
> Dr Taylor





hobbyhorse23 said:


> The surgery is done because the ligament is too long or lax and efforts to contract it through exercise or scarring have failed. I wouldn't think you'd want it to reattach! The vets I spoke with said they wanted the horse on stall rest to keep the joint itself stable but needed him hand-walked a couple times a day to make sure the ends of the ligament did not become adhered. It was supposed to be brief, easy hand-walking in a straight line then back to stall rest.
> 
> Leia



its clear you both have a lot of experience but these two statements seem to contradict each other , thats why I was confused ??


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 24, 2011)

fourluckyhorseshoes said:


> Leia- what is the name of the supplement you are using for Kody and yourself?


There are many good supplements out there; look for any that combine Glucosamine, Chondrotin Sulfates, MSM and even Hyaluronic Acid. Some products will work for one horse (or person) and not for another so I cover my bases. MSM worked well for Bo but seemed to do nothing for Spyder, for instance.

I chose "Equinyl Combo with H/A" because it was available locally, came in an alfalfa-based powder which was less messy that liquids and includes manganese and copper and some other ingredients that help with proper absorption of the primary ingredients. I needed the best for Spyder by the time he got in his 30's and the same ingredients without H/A just weren't cutting it anymore. My vet said he didn't think the H/A in an oral form would help but it made a large difference with both our older Arabs when added to their existing regimens so I'm going to take their word for it.



I gave Kody what I already had on hand for simplicity's sake and kept the same product after Spyder died.



supaspot said:


> its clear you both have a lot of experience but these two statements seem to contradict each other , thats why I was confused ??


I agree, Dr. Taylor's input was contradictory to what I'd been told by vets in my area. I do not know who is correct, only that it seems counter-intuitive that you'd want the ligament to reattach after being intentionally severed. Heck, it usually takes surgery to reattach ligaments which have been accidentally severed!





I am NOT a vet and would normally recommend that you always consult your own veterinarian first on any medical issue, but it seems like every vet has a different take on this procedure and none of them agree with each other.



It pays to do your own research and talk to others who have had the procedure done to see what their experience has been. In the end it was the right answer for my horse, but I still do not know what's really gone on in that joint since the procedure.

Leia


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