# Help with breeding...should we or shouldn't we?



## charli (Apr 6, 2011)

Hello- My mom and I have currently have 6 minis but also own a Hackney pony. We are considering breeding Penny (Hackney) to one of our stallions,Dancer, a 33" Brown Pinto with Blue eyes. We are concerned that Penny may injure Dancer. Does anyone have any experience with breeding a mini with a pony? Any advice?

Thanks


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## Sue_C. (Apr 6, 2011)

I am sure it has been done...I think "our own" Mary Lou has or had some mini/Hackney crosses. I would definitely use breeding hobbles...that significantly cuts down the chances of the stallion getting injured.


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## kaykay (Apr 6, 2011)

You have to also ask yourself what is the goal of this breeding? How will it be registered? (NSPR?)

I cant see your pictures, but what makes you think the mare would hurt the stallion? Is there a large size difference?

We bred our 36 aspc/amhr stallion to a 46" aspc mare and had to hand breed them to facilitate the breeding


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## drmatthewtaylor (Apr 6, 2011)

charli said:


> Hello- My mom and I have currently have 6 minis but also own a Hackney pony. We are considering breeding Penny (Hackney) to one of our stallions,Dancer, a 33" Brown Pinto with Blue eyes. We are concerned that Penny may injure Dancer. Does anyone have any experience with breeding a mini with a pony? Any advice?
> 
> ThanksView attachment 1173
> View attachment 1172


Breeding has a degree of danger whether you are pasture breeding, hand breeding, or AI'ing (most to least danger). I do not consider a larger mare to a smaller stallion to be any more dangerous. Many large horse breeding farms have a resident pony/mini stallion used for teasing. Mind you these folks are purposefully putting this small stallion in a position too dangerous for their big stallion and yet I have never had/heard of an injury.

Not that I encourage getting anything injured, I will also say a little fear produces some respect and a more gentlemanly stallion.

Dr Taylor


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## txminipinto (Apr 6, 2011)

I agree with Kay and Dr. Taylor. 1) what are you trying to produce? 2) Breeding horses is dangerous for everyone involved at all times. Mares kick, stallions bite, and if you are handing breeding many times you are inbetween them at some point. I've been bit once this year and kicked or near kicked several times by both mares and the stallion. My major concern would be the mare kicking the stallion's penis since he's going to have to really "reach". Based on the pics, she appears to be very butt high so unless you dig a hole, he's going to have some trouble and she will eventually get irritated with him.

In this economy and with the over production of all kinds of horses, my advice is to not breed these two as the marking for the resulting foal is limited unless you intended to keep it forever and ever. But that's just me.


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## denny10012 (Apr 6, 2011)

txminipinto said:


> I agree with Kay and Dr. Taylor. 1) what are you trying to produce? 2) Breeding horses is dangerous for everyone involved at all times. Mares kick, stallions bite, and if you are handing breeding many times you are inbetween them at some point. I've been bit once this year and kicked or near kicked several times by both mares and the stallion. My major concern would be the mare kicking the stallion's penis since he's going to have to really "reach". Based on the pics, she appears to be very butt high so unless you dig a hole, he's going to have some trouble and she will eventually get irritated with him.
> 
> In this economy and with the over production of all kinds of horses, my advice is to not breed these two as the marking for the resulting foal is limited unless you intended to keep it forever and ever. But that's just me.


I dont mean to be rude but you breed ( do you not ) so why shouldnt she..!!


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## txminipinto (Apr 6, 2011)

denny10012 said:


> I dont mean to be rude but you breed ( do you not ) so why shouldnt she..!!


I do breed. ASPC x ASPC where I have a market. I do not breed cross breeds with no market. I breed ponies with show records and have produced ponies with show records. A hackney to a mini cross has a very limited market and very limited show/use opportunities.


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## Jean_B (Apr 6, 2011)

Is your hackney also registered with AMHR?? If not, you will end up with a grade pony....which while it could turn out to be very nice, has a VERY limited market if you ever decide to sell....unless it is trained to be a 'bomb proof' kids' pony....so you are talking YEARS before you MIGHT see any kind of return on this mating.


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## disneyhorse (Apr 6, 2011)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> Maybe it's just me, but how did it get from someone asking for advice in breeding a mini with a pony, to whether or not she should breed, how will you register it, and what's the market if you sell.........etc.?
> 
> Why is everyone so full of sharing their advice not to breed? She didn't ask IF she should do this, but asked for help and if anyone had any experience with this. She never even mentioned selling!
> 
> ...


Most responsible breeders want not only what is best for THEIR animals, but for the animals in their industry as a whole as well. Therefore, when people see an opportunity to make someone THINK about what they are doing with their animals, be it husbandry/care or breeding, they will voice their opinions and offer some information.

There are so many animals out there as a result of poor planning in breeding that if just one more animal can be prevented from being bred, a majority of responsible breeders will try to do what they can.

A registered animal will have more opportunities to find a good home, it's one more thing it has going for it. A well-conformed animal will be more attractive to people, be healthier and stronger overall, and have more opportunities to be a show/breeding animal. Therefore, it doesn't make sense to breed "just because" it is there, even if it's unregistered or not registered to the same registries as other animals on the farm.

Personally, if this hackney mare is unregistered, I would not breed it. I don't see in the original post if the mare is or not. But I see purebred, registered Hackney ponies selling at the Midwest Hackney Club auctions for just a hundred dollars so it doesn't make sense to me to breed a grade crossbred horse "just because" ... I can buy something with a decent pedigree for next to nothing.

If the mare was registered, I would personally find a nice AHHS registered Hackney stallion to breed her to. OR I would find an ASPC shetland stallion to make an ASPR registered foal if I thought the cross would stay under 48".

Andrea


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## Ashley (Apr 6, 2011)

Well I think given the people that answered, they have years of experience with breeding, what is desirable, what is quality, what wins at shows as well as getting good homes. I find that most who are brave enough to comment, and risk getting a slap on the wrist by other posters as well as ML are really only trying to better the breed and cut down on the poor quality horses that are being over produced with nowhere to go but in to rescues after they have been neglected.

Would I do the breeding? No for some of the very reasons mentioned. There is no market for them. I have 5 horses now, most are big and only 2 are registered. One I bought for $300 and was dead broke, kid and newbie safe. The amount of time, money and work put into him was worth far more then what I bought him for, mainly because he had no papers. Of those 5 only one is a gelding the rest are mares. I haven’t had foals in about 3 years and even then I had 1-2 a year. The last 2 foals I had were double reg. show quality that I put into pet homes for little to no money, and then I stopped breeding. If I ever decide to have a foal it will be for my own use to replace my older riding horse.

Problem that seems to be in almost any breed of animals is that people have them so they think why not breed them instead of taking a step back and really looking at if they should or should not be bred.


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## Eagle (Apr 6, 2011)

and the grumpies continue.



Believe it or not there are a lot more things to do with a pony than show it and I have seen some very well put together ponies that never go into the show ring. My son has a hackney cross that believe it or not he show jumps and gymkanas. When I go to buy a new riding or lead rein pony I am not interested in its breed but what it will be like with the kids. Could you tell us what you would like to do with this foal?

I know it isn't quite the same thing but when we cover the big mares by hand the stallion is presented on the other side of the stable door for the first time just to see if she is ready and willing and the mares always have kicking chains on when covered. I haven't had any trouble so far but we don't use young stallions so the older guys tend to be a bit more careful.


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## Mona (Apr 6, 2011)

I hear ya Diane, and agree! We just went through the same thing on another fairly recent post. We don't want to scare people off, making them afraid to post their questions for fear that they will be bombarded with DON'T BREED/preaching posts when that is not what they are asking. I am not saying those posting those responses are not valid concerns, because they definately ARE, however, that was not what was asked. Each of us own our horses, pay for their feed, health care and upkeep, and we are therefore the ones to make the decision as to whether we want to breed them or not. I know what things are like with the market, and if I still owned minis and wanted to breed them, I would, regardless of what anyone else had to say about it, because they are my horses, I pay the bills and it is therefore only MY responsibility and MY decision to do so.


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## Magic (Apr 6, 2011)

But the title is "Help with breeding... should we or shouldn't we?" So, those who said "you shouldn't", they are answering the OP's question, are they not?

Personally I don't breed any horses (or anything else) that won't be able to be registered. And I won't buy an unregistered horse. When I was looking for a mini for the grandkids to get started on, I bought a registered one. She's very well broke to ride and drive, and the kids will be able to take her into the show ring if they so desire, and when they outgrow her, she'll be easier to sell since she's registered (and will likely have a show record too).


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## Mona (Apr 6, 2011)

Magic said:


> But the title is "Help with breeding... should we or shouldn't we?" So, those who said "you shouldn't", they are answering the OP's question, are they not?


Oh, sorry, I guess I must have misunderstood the question being asked then, because I thought they were asking about people's past experience with breeding a pony to a mini for safety reasons when they asked...



> Does anyone have any experience with breeding a mini with a pony?


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## Hosscrazy (Apr 6, 2011)

I believe there are several experienced breeders here who have crossed their minis with Hackney ponies. Hopefully they will chime in and share their experiences!

Liz R.


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## Jazzysmom (Apr 6, 2011)

when Im breeding, no matter what I am wanting, I have to realize that, even if I think I will NEVER sell the horse, will there be a market??? because you can never perdict the future.

while the cross could result in something fabulous.............flashy cart pony?!  is the QUALITY going to be there? what I know about your stud is that he is a Pretty color, and while color is a plus, it should not be the main reason you breed two horses..............UNLESS, the quality of both horses are superb, and the color is just an added bonus.

before making the decision , check out the local market for these sorts of horses/ponies, find horses similar to what you will produce, and be truthful with yourself... realize that, there is a possibility you could get the least color, and the foal be a plain coat color..........so, you would loose the market for loud, flashy colorful horses.

create different scenerios, and realize how you will be able to handle it, mentally, AND Financially.........foals are expensive, way more expensive typically, then just going out and buying them

check out local auctions, and look into rescuing?? realize you must wait 3-4 years or longer to break the pony to cart or saddle, and then another year or so until you can safely ride or drive them.

I say YES- breed them, if your horses are accomplished, are quality examples of their breed, and their conformation will COMPLIMENT eachother, and you are capable financially to afford vet visits for foals, and training

I say NO- if you are simply wanting to see what sort of foal you would get, and are wanting to breed for color and neither parents are accomplished - and you financially cannot afford the 14-day vet check - 4 month pregnancy vet check, the vet to come out the day after foaling, paying for correct grain to feed the mare, along with correct vaccinations during the mares pregnancy. .....because cutting corners on pregnancys is never good 

GOOD LUCK!!!



)))


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## midnight star stables (Apr 6, 2011)

You know there are AMHR miniature horses that look hackneys out there, if it is something you desire. They are modern bred, which have hackney bloodlines.


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## valshingle (Apr 6, 2011)

Well, I'm going to answer the question:

I have no experience breeding a mini to a pony, but I'm thinking you are going to need a ladder to get it done. Or a very deep hole. You may find that the logistics make the breeding a very difficult task.

Hope this helps.


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## chandab (Apr 6, 2011)

valshingle said:


> Well, I'm going to answer the question:
> 
> I have no experience breeding a mini to a pony, but I'm thinking you are going to need a ladder to get it done. Or a very deep hole. You may find that the logistics make the breeding a very difficult task.
> 
> Hope this helps.


I was thinking along the same lines. I have a 31" stallion, he has a hard enough time reaching my mini mares, as they are 35-38" tall (so far, he's only covered a couple 35-36" girls).


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## shelia (Apr 6, 2011)

I have no experiance with this, but I will just post my thought anyway.

If you are prepared and will accept what you end up with then go for it. The safety issue is a concern too, but I am sure you are getting plenty of advise on that.

The concern I have is what you might end up with. This is quite an outcross. You might not get just a smaller horse with hackney movement. You might get a very short legged hackney that has terrible movement. it is a gamble, and you can't be sure all of the genes will fall in your favor. If they do, great! If they don't I guess those are called the culls. Are you prepared to accept that?

It is true that we all take a chance like that when we breed, but not as big of a chance as you will be taking.

I wouldn't worry too much about the market. One foal shouldn't be that hard to find a home for or keep. Which ever you decide. lots of people have done it or still do it. They dump the foals till they get what they want. people didn't think much about it years ago. A lot of nice horses were created, but what became of all the culls? Everyone just pretended the never existed.

I guess we all do the same thing when we breed. I will only breed for something specific and if it ends up being a colt or not exacltly what I want, then I will be selling it or placing it. I have a small herd and have 4 due this year which is the most i have ever had. I had one filly born so far and she is for sure a keeper.


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## Knottymare (Apr 6, 2011)

:::tip toeing in:::

I can see "both sides of the argument" as it were. I did rescue for many years... so I won't even go down that path...

But, what I have seen as far as equine rescue goes is that fancy breeding and show records will do nothing to keep them out of the slaughter pen. This is a terrible market right now. In the last year, a large percentage have been registered animals with wonderful breeding. Most of them, sadly, are some one else's burned out broodmare with no saddle training but tons of halter points, bred from "big winners" and so on... but untrained. In fact, right now there is a Bask bred 2 year old Arabian gelding in the local kill pen. Thankfully, he has been networked and purchased by a guy who's willing to ship him from WA state to KY... but NOTHING, not breeding and often, not even training is keeping horses of all sizes out of local auctions where they frequently end up purchased by kill buyers. Of course this is a much higher risk for the larger horses. Minis just get forgotten out in some field somewhere.

If you want actual pictures, numbers, horses... feel free to read the conversations at auctionhorses.proboards dot com.

Breed if you know that if all heck were to break loose tomorrow, you know you could care for that horse it's entire life OR be willing to know that once it leaves your hands, you have no idea how horrible or wonderful it's life might be.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 6, 2011)

if you are breeding to sell i would say dont do it. minis and hackneys are two vastly different breeds and the resulting foal could come out looking funny or having a weird gait(if the hackney is gaited) and i dont know if its just the picture angles, but it doesnt look like your horses are the best breeding prospects when it comes to conformation.

if you are breeding to keep the foal then i would say its your decision, and the easiest way would be to either do AI (no risk of injury at all) or dig a big hole, have the mare stand in it and try breeding them that way.


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## Mr.T (Apr 6, 2011)

I think that as long as you go about the breeding safely for both animals(maybe using breeding hobbles as someone suggested) then you should go for it! Obviously if you are thinking about breeding the animals you aren't concerned about registering the foal(because if you did care then you wouldn't be debating this!) I do believe, however, that the foal would probably be for a pet, which I think is fine to do. And if you were in the position where you had to sell it I'm sure the size of the foal would be just right for any pet or companion. Plus if you could register it, that's a plus. I say go for it!


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## kaykay (Apr 6, 2011)

I also took the title *should we or shouldnt we* to mean she wanted opinions on the actual breeding.

Sorry if I mis read it.


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## Carolyn R (Apr 6, 2011)

edited:misread origional post, nothing to add


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## charli (Apr 7, 2011)

Ok well I got a lot more responses than I expected and they ranged from helpful, to scary and to down right rude. I appreciate everything that all of you have said but I did want to clear up a few things. We were only thinking of breeding these 2 so that we may produce a small pony for my kids. We have the minis but they are not really rideable and my kids are small (all under 7) and we were thinking that we could have a small horse pet that the kids could raise and have as a forever friend. They love the minis but we have not raised any of them ourselves and so they don't have that special bond that comes with starting with a new life and caring for the animal as it matures. WE do NOT show our animals and may never...although they may make it to 4H when my kids are old enough if they are interested. We just play with them. Brush, clip, comb, watch them out on the lawn for fun, and have a lot of laughs.

We are definitely going to be doing a lot of thinking and considering before we move forward with this. The mini is registered with AMHA but the Hachney came with no papers (might be registered but too many people in between us). Penny has been trained to drive and does have the foot action when handled but *we* do not know how to drive. Maybe we should consider learning this and putting her to some use and fun.

We were hoping to have a mini foal to 'grow up with' this spring but it turns out that the mare that we purchased must have slipped her foal. We bought her in July 2010 and was told that she was bred (pasture) and would be due in April 2011. We had her vet checked in Dec. when we went in for her vaccinations and it was confirmed via ultrasound but no foal was seen. Vet told us that she was pregnant.

We have been watching her on camera and had an equipage on her since mid January just because we do not want to miss the event (she is a maiden mare) and were not 100% sure of her date. Her personality changed a lot and she would no longer allow us to handle her udder and seemed to want to kick us all the time one day and the next she would be fine. We decided to clip her backend to help during the birth but then she just didn't look pregnant anymore. So last Sat. my mom clipped all of her and was sure she wasn't pregnant. We took her to the vet on Monday to be checked and the vet palpated and said there was nothing. We are very depressed since we have been waiting to have a little one and sad for Kisses. If anyone has advise or ideas of how, what, when this might have occured I would appreciate any experience. ( Kisses will be turning 5 this spring and is a registered AMHR 30".

)

So, all is all, I appreciate everything that you have stated on all of your responses. I will admit that some of the responses (or tones) do make me hesitate to ask many questions but I have learned a lot from reading many of the posts.

Good luck with everyones foals and have a wonderful Spring!


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## Jazzysmom (Apr 7, 2011)

^^^^^^^^^^

From my personal experience, breeding to have a foal "grow with the kids" never seems to work out well for either the kids or the horse, babies, of all shapes and sizes are dangerous, they don't know anything, and bad habits are formed fast. babies begin to get "opinions" early on, and even from experienced breeders, such as myself, we will expect, even from the "good babies" kicks, bites, strikes, and anything else that is never to plesent. from training for 15 years, we have handled many "grow with the kids" type horses, and they have a very scewed sense of reality... which is "they are the boss- and are always right" ... granted with age, for the foals, comes wisdom......from US , lol  and the horses in training got to go through bootcamp and realized their true establishment in the pecking order, lol

Charli, don't be hesitant to ask question, questions are good  people are simply giving their opinion, as you had asked, and of course, while they may not be what you want to hear, there is still knowledge to be absorbed! I know how I was the first time someone didn't write something "ideal" as to what I wanted to hear, and down the road, i was thankful, and got myself out of a lot of trouble!! we don't mean any harm


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## charli (Apr 7, 2011)

Thanks....and I know that you are right. Even if everything does work out, eventually my kids will grow up and lose interest. So far we love the minis and have the land to keep them and so plan to enjoy them. We are newbies with breeding and I have learned a lot from this forum which may make us decide to just be happy with what we have. 

Thanks


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## ~Palomino~ (Apr 7, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Come on people... lets be nice!


YES! I love this thought!!


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## uwharrie (Apr 7, 2011)

Also take in consideration that the resulting foal will need to be 3-4 yrs old before your kids can ride it. That is a long time to feed and care for a horse that all they can do with is brush and lead around. And it is hard to properly saddle train small ponies if the kids are not experienced riders.

A much more economical option (and safer as young horses can be dangerous) would be to find a dead broke kid safe pony for them. If they lose interest you will still have a marketable pony.

Ultimately the decision is up to you and what you feel will work. Folks are not trying to be rude with their replies, they are just giving honest opinions, many of which are based on years of experience.


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## txminipinto (Apr 7, 2011)

Thank you Charli for coming back and responding to your thread. I can understand and appreciate the desire to produce a foal so that your children can experience the miracle of birth and watch the foal mature. However, my own experience says that is more for you than your children. While foaling mares out can be a very joyous occasion, it can also go horribly wrong. My son has limited interest in seeing the mares foal. And we foal out 1-3 a year. He does want to play with the foals and that's really not appropriate for children to do. With his first foal experience he was running behind the foal (with me repeatedly yelling at him to stop) and took a hoof straight to the face. Just the other day, I was cleaning a mare/foal stall and a very sweet colt nailed me in my knee cap. Just because. He's also snuck up on me and nipped me. This is normal foal behavior. My child doesn't handle that very well.

I highly recommend Marestare.com if you wish to show them the miracle of birth. They have mare cams, goat cams, dog cams, cat cams, cow cams, etc.

As far as a riding pony, there are thousands of good broke riding ponies available right now and dirt cheap. I don't know where you are located but there's a great pony sale in October in TX that always has riding ponies available.

Please don't take my response to your questions and plans as rude. I do not mean it that way. My comments come from years of experience in veterinary medicine, working with children around horses, and basic horse farm management.


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## chandab (Apr 7, 2011)

charli said:


> Penny has been trained to drive and does have the foot action when handled but *we* do not know how to drive. Maybe we should consider learning this and putting her to some use and fun.


Why don't you get Penny back in harness and start working with her, if she's already trained to drive that's half the battle, she just needs a refresher and time in harness. Hopefully, there is someone that drives near you that you could work with to get her going again and you started.

Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## ~Lisa~ (Apr 7, 2011)

THese threads are always interesting and as someone who has bred for many years I do understand the no do not do it route however that said..

It is not my place to decide who should and should not breed horses. Many deemed "quality" are not that in any way to me. Many with show records are not breeding worthy to me.. and many I have bred over the years looking back now were not breeding worthy

To answer the question it has been done by many and done well I do believe Tony used to breed these crosses as well and many of these crosses currently are already being bred in ASPC/R some with great success although they are registered but many of the resulting ponies are beautiful.

The fact you are asking and researching foaling issues and watching your mare puts you ahead of many out there. I wish you luck in whatever you decide to do


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## Royal Crescent (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi!





I hope you do try the driving as it is a lot of fun. I have no experience with Hackneys, so I don't know how gentle she would be to start with. Maybe someone around you can work with you to try her out and you can decide what to do then. Also, unless you are set on being there for the birth, maybe someone with minis in your area will have a pet quality mini foal that you can bond with and bring home when it is weaned. That way, your kids don't have to wait another year for a baby to love!



Good luck.

Barb


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 7, 2011)

Babies are ALOT of work, they kick, bite, rear and you have to teach them everything from scratch, tying, leading, loading, manners, etc. It takes alot of hard work, patience and time. have you ever tried halter breaking a foal? its a pain in the butt and i dont think its for young kids that might lose interest or forget about the foal. i'm not trying to be mean, but i've seen personally what happens when a foal is left in a feild and has had nothing done with it. it took my gelding nearly a year to trust me because he was left to rot in a feild with little human contact.


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## MindyLee (Apr 7, 2011)

Ill post a answer for you!

GO FOR IT!!!

If this is what you guys want to do for a riding pony then it is your dession! Everyone who says dont breed needs to remember one thing, we all can pick apart each others herd and tell each other reasons why they should breed either! BUT back to the topic!

*HERES WHAT I HAVE SEEN !*

There is a farm locally that has a 30" Buckeroo g-son and wow is he good looking and these folks dont even realize what his pedigree is! They just like that he is really small and has great confirmation. Anyway they breed him to a lot of taller pony mares as well as a quarter horse mare to get some really nice riding ponys. They do this because the do the pony rides all over this state, at all the local fairs and pony parties and events. They have had great sucess in breeding some very nice ponys that are pretty to the eye and have pretty good confirmation! I very impressed when I went to their farm and seen what they had produced as I did'nt really think it would have good quality foals. However I did ask how the got him to reach theses taller mares and they said a couple of ways...Hes in a trailer while mare is outside of it, they use their ditch as well and they have a man made dirt hill ramp with boards keepling the hill flush for the mare to back up to for him to reach. Pretty neat if I must add.

So if this is what you want, I say then go for it and good luck and hope you have a healthy foal with great sucess!

OH and if you do breed Ill be expecting foal pics next yr!


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