# My Dusty Hates Me



## Katiean (Mar 22, 2010)

I have started ground driving my colt. I guess he is old enough I could call him a stud. Well anyway, this horse is so lazy that I can run him through a mock halter class without a halter. So I have been ground driving him and he has whoa down to a science. I am having a heck of a time finding the "GO" button. I give him the que to go and he stands there. I give the command again in a firmer tone. He doesn't move. I tell him again and give a smack of the whip. We just stand there grinding gears. Without using the whip too much how do you get them to find that forward gear?


----------



## disneyhorse (Mar 22, 2010)

It sounds like he is confused. It is unusual for even a slow or lazy horse to refuse to walk forward at a request. It's usually the trotting work that they object to.

Is he trained to lunge and free lunge yet? Most of my driving horses know ALL commands (walk, trot, slow down, go, stop, and stand) by voice before I ever start ground driving them.

Make sure your command is clear enough that he understands. And be sure to reward profusely when he tries to figure out what you are asking.

Remember, horses don't have the same emotions or motivations that we do. It is highly unlikely that your horse "hates you" and is "taking it out on you" by refusing to go forward.

Andrea


----------



## Katiean (Mar 22, 2010)

I do not have a round pen. Nor is my ground flat. He has never been lunged. My girls all picked it up so fast. This last time I did add side reins to keep his nose off of the ground. He really hated that. He is the 5th horse I have started and I have never had such a hard time finding that forward gear. Maybe if I put him in the bitting rig and take him for walks. That way he will know it is OK to go forward with all of this odd junk on his body.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 22, 2010)

Are you taking up contact before you start asking him to move? If there's been no change in the reins the horse will often continue to stand there because he's been rewarded before for standing in the face of temptation. Basically he thinks he's doing the right thing!

If a horse truly gets "stuck," like he's balking over walking into a puddle or something, it's often helpful to ask them to move in another direction. You want to be careful not to teach backing or sidestepping as an evasion but used appropriately you can break the stalemate by getting the horse to take one step to the side then rapidly encouraging him to go forward the minute he starts to shift his weight. Like anything else it takes timing and delicacy.




And praise for doing the right thing, of course!

Leia


----------



## Sandee (Mar 22, 2010)

Katiean said:


> I do not have a round pen. Nor is my ground flat. He has never been lunged. My girls all picked it up so fast. This last time I did add side reins to keep his nose off of the ground. He really hated that. He is the 5th horse I have started and I have never had such a hard time finding that forward gear. Maybe if I put him in the bitting rig and take him for walks. That way he will know it is OK to go forward with all of this odd junk on his body.


OMG, I thought I had the only stallion that was that backward! I'm like you my filly "got it" quick and easy but my stallion - well, he went to a trainer to teach him to lunge as I just couldn't get him to move on! I think it has something to do with never being lunged. I had trouble getting him going so I gave up on lunging. The same with my elder gelding - don't think he was ever lunged either. I took him for a driving lesson and the lady wouldn't believe me that he didn't lunge (she wanted to "warm him up"). That is until she tried. Two different whips and a lot of sweat later she got the idea across to him that he was to move ( and this was a horse that new how to drive - just not how to lunge).

If you find that magic word that makes him move, please share it as my trainer didn't tell me how he managed! (It did take him 2 weeks longer to train him to drive than he originally thought).


----------



## MiLo Minis (Mar 22, 2010)

Katiean said:


> I do not have a round pen. Nor is my ground flat. He has never been lunged. My girls all picked it up so fast. This last time I did add side reins to keep his nose off of the ground. He really hated that. He is the 5th horse I have started and I have never had such a hard time finding that forward gear. Maybe if I put him in the bitting rig and take him for walks. That way he will know it is OK to go forward with all of this odd junk on his body.


Do you have a square pen that you could put boards across the corners to create a "round" pen?

You have missed a big step in training him if you haven't worked him loose or at least on a lunge and taught him his commands before progressing to line driving. I don't think he is lazy or hating anything necessarily but more confused than anything. He doesn't understand what you want, is frightened by all the new equipment and the safest thing for him to do is not move. You need to be very careful at this point because if you push him he is likely to explode on you out of fright and frustration. Go back a step and get him used to the "odd junk" by working him loose or on a lunge so that he realizes he can go forward with it on. Teach him to move forward with a kiss and a whip. Once he understands add the long lines in the "round" pen and lunge him with them. Every horse is different and just because a couple others took to it quickly doesn't mean they all will, you have to adjust to suit him.


----------



## ErikaS. (Mar 23, 2010)

Okay, I am NOT anywhere near being a trainer, but I did teach my gelding to ground drive...And like your guy he just stood there. I had taught him voice commands and did some free lunging in his pen (I don't have a round pen either), got him used to all the harness stuff on him and at the moment of truth, he just stood there and rested his hind foot. I finally got him to move when I took him out of the pen and onto the driveway, on the nearby field and even down the road- places where he actually wanted to go and have a look around. After that he got the idea to "walk on" when I said "walk on".

Just a thought. Good luck.


----------



## Katiean (Mar 23, 2010)

ErikaS. said:


> Okay, I am NOT anywhere near being a trainer, but I did teach my gelding to ground drive...And like your guy he just stood there. I had taught him voice commands and did some free lunging in his pen (I don't have a round pen either), got him used to all the harness stuff on him and at the moment of truth, he just stood there and rested his hind foot. I finally got him to move when I took him out of the pen and onto the driveway, on the nearby field and even down the road- places where he actually wanted to go and have a look around. After that he got the idea to "walk on" when I said "walk on".Just a thought. Good luck.


I didn't have a chance to work with him today. I had to take Guinea Pigs to their new home. Anyway, I did take him out onto the road for a couple of minutes with just a halter. He wanted to go check things out. I thought I might tack him up tomorrow and walk him with a halter. I have to put the bridle on him but I am using an open bridle. I thought I might not put the side reins on but walk him with the gig and bridle. If he does ok I will add the side reins the next time and after that I will ground drive him. The gelding I trained last year was just as easy to train as my girls have all been. I believe he has Shetlands in his pedigree. I wounder if that has anything to do with his stubbornness? No. Just kidding. Don't flame me for that comment. It was just a joke.


----------



## Kathy2m (Mar 23, 2010)

I have only trained 4 to drive, but my background is in ridden Dressage, from what you have written you have tried to collect him before you have taught him forward, IE: side reins and the like. You have to have impulsion before you can have collection. I do not have a round pen but taught all mine how to lunge its not as easy without a pen but it can be done, just make sure you stay behind the shoulder you get in front of it and they will usually stop. I agree with most of the posts you need to go back a few steps in your training and get him to lunge or at the least trot in hand beside you when he is asked.

Good Luck, Kathy


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 23, 2010)

Technically, most Minis have Shetland in their pedigree, it just depends on how "close" it is. I think my show gelding has it quite close, and he is the most forward, ambitious Mini I have!



(Personally, I also think that is what gives him the structure and movement he has, too.)

All of our horses first learn walk, trot, stop, set up, and stand cues with just the halter and the leadrope, the same as if you were doing Showmanship. Make sure you use the same verbal cues for EVERYTHING you do with the horse, lead into the stall, stand for trimming, trotting for the fun of it, etc. For us, one cluck is "walk", two quick clucks is "trot", and then also "ho" and "stand" (we use kiss for canter, as that is what our big horses are trained to do. That helps for CDE work eventually). To get them to trot in hand, use a whip long enough to reach behind you in your left hand while you lead with your right. As you "trot", if they don't follow, flick them in the flank with the whip while you give the verbal cue. All our horses know all of this before we even progress to the longe line. Then, when we make the transition, they know that when I cluck once, they should walk regardless of where I am in relation to them.

On the longe line, they learn the three speeds of trot by varying the size of the circle. The bigger the circle, the faster the trot (after they know "whoa" well). We start with the working trot, and I just want them to have a nice easy, forward trot. It doesn't matter really what the speed is for a while until they learn to maintain an even, balanced pace. When they have that down, I "reel" them in for the slow trot, all the while giving the verbal cue "jog" in a soothing voice. For the strong trot, I tell them "trot up" in a more animated voice. Eventually, I don't have to change the size of the circle, because they know the verbal cue and will respond to it readily. Even if you aren't going to show, teaching multiple speeds of trot is very helpful in general driving, and makes it more enjoyable when you can vary the speed.

I have had more lazy horses on the longe that I have had to get after with the whip, but if you are aiming it at their hock or hip, they will almost automatically move forward, just like their buddy in the paddock that gets after them to move. I usually don't have to "beat" my horses with the shaft of the whip, but just flick the lash at them, all the while using the verbal cue. Remember, you would rather be _told_ to clean your room than to have your mom drag you by the ear to do it, so always tell the horse *first*. However, if he doesn't respond in a matter of seconds, reinforce with the whip. Eventually, he will decide that responding to the voice is "easier" that getting encouraged behind. Once he knows how to move forward on the longe line with the verbal cue and the whip reinforcement, then the progression to line driving will be much easier.

In some cases, I even line drive the first few times with the halter. This makes an easier transition for them as well. The more you can break up your training into smaller steps, the easier the horse can relate what he already knows to what he is learning that is different. You didn't learn your numbers and then jump directly into dividing them. You had to learn to add, subtract, and multiply them before you could divide them!





Myrna


----------



## chandab (Mar 23, 2010)

While I have yet to train a horse to drive (for cart, done lots of ground driving for saddle training saddle hroses), I have taught several to lunge in the open, it usually means you get more of a work out as you tend to walk a bigger circle (at least that's what happend to be. I only fairly recently got a round corral, so only my AQHA gelding has learned all about lunging in an actual round corral (and his dam did too, but I was boarding at the time); I trained his sister to lunger in a summer fallow field and I ground drove her cross country for months before starting her under saddle. So lunging can be done without a round pen, but it does usually involve more work for the handler.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 23, 2010)

Round pens are nice, yes, but nobody used them to train all the riding horses my mother rode growing up and I didn't have one when I trained my first three horses. Oh wait, I still don't!



It is entirely possible to teach a horse to lunge without one and for that matter, to teach them to long-line without lunging using the methods Myrna discusses if you literally CANNOT lunge. The important part is that the horse understand consistent verbal cues and that you break the transition from using them while the horse walks beside you to walking ahead of you into small steps.

I agree with MiLo that your boy sounds like he's confused. You have skipped a lot of steps if you simply threw the equipment on him, attached side reins, got behind him and asked him to walk forward. (I'm not saying that's what you did, but we haven't heard otherwise and that's the impression I'm getting.) Go back and teach this young man what all the equipment is, what each command means then put it all together.



Katiean said:


> I thought I might tack him up tomorrow and walk him with a halter. I have to put the bridle on him but I am using an open bridle. I thought I might not put the side reins on but walk him with the gig and bridle. If he does ok I will add the side reins the next time and after that I will ground drive him.


Definitely no side reins until he understands forward. You are jumping way ahead and getting into trouble. First teach forward, then teach forward and maybe some bend and give with very loose side reins while lunging, then take the side reins OFF and long-line/ground-drive. You will only confuse him terribly trying to long-line with tight standing sidereins on.

If he's having trouble with snatching grass, put on a loose sidecheck. Sidereins will not effectively quash the problem anyway.

Leia


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 23, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Round pens are nice, yes, but nobody used them to train all the riding horses my mother rode growing up and I didn't have one when I trained my first three horses. Oh wait, I still don't!
> 
> 
> 
> It is entirely possible to teach a horse to lunge without one and for that matter, to teach them to long-line without lunging using the methods Myrna discusses if you literally CANNOT lunge.


We don't have a round pen either, just a 60' x 80' indoor arena, which is really "too big" of a "square pen" (vs. round) for minis anyway. We just can't see the $$$ investment of a round pen when in actuality they are mostly used to start horses. (Yes, I know you can use them for other things, too....) I like to get beyond "starting" horses and actually drive them somewhere besides round and round.





Yes, I even forgot the step that Leia mentions, to take the horse from longeing to line driving through long lining (some people consider them to be one in the same, but I digress). We really don't spend a lot of time line driving behind the horse. In the big scheme of things, I don't know too many people that do other than mini drivers. Most big horse drivers would rather not spend that time looking at the back end of their horse, and when they do, it is actually a little bit to the side so that the driver is not directly behind the horse! (Such as this:



) Having that horse go around you is also safer than being behind it, because if that horse decided to leave, it would be really easy for it to take off and pull the reins right out of your hands. Whereas if you long line in a circle, you might have a fighting chance of keeping that horse in the circle and not off like a shot. After the horse is well-accustomed to long lining, we will have them pull weight while long lining, use the shaft trainers, and go through some cones. Then I will move more to the back of the horse so that they get the idea that they have to be the "leader". We really only spend one or two lessons back there before we put to the cart. (It's too much work to take that many steps behind my horses!



)

Myrna


----------



## Katiean (Mar 23, 2010)

No I did not just tack him up and go. Or stand there in his case. however, he isn't picking it up near as fast as he should. I will be taking him out on to the roads to see if it makes a difference. And I will take the side reins off. I only put them on once to keep him from rubbing his nose in the dirt. I guess he has a bit further to go than the rest. He acts a lot like my Arab stud did. Maybe it is a guy thing.


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 23, 2010)

Katiean said:


> No I did not just tack him up and go. Or stand there in his case. however, *he isn't picking it up near as fast as he should*. I will be taking him out on to the roads to see if it makes a difference. And I will take the side reins off. I only put them on once to *keep him from rubbing his nose in the dirt*. I guess he has a bit further to go than the rest. He acts a lot like my Arab stud did. Maybe it is a guy thing.


All horses learn at different rates. You have to adjust to _their_ schedule, not the other way around.

I missed the part in the earlier posts about not having anywhere flat. Unless you have a really steep grade, you can still longe some in a small area. The point is that you need to be at his side moving him forward and not behind him. You can even move him forward in a 10'x10' box stall. It's not ideal, but it would work.

You may also have to go back and teach him that it is not acceptable for him to be putting his nose down on the ground when it is work time. This will save you a lot of headaches. Personally, I like to teach that without any contraptions. Being a stud, he is probably very interested in all the smells. Make sure you don't allow him to put his head down when you are walking in a halter and lead. If he does, bump him in the nose with your foot and give a "head up" cue.

It sounds to me like he is getting to make decisions that he shouldn't be allowed to make. If you really focus on you being the management and him being the labor (Jeff Morse stuff), once he gives up that "control", you will enjoy working with your horse more. (Do you really need him to be a stud? Would you enjoy him more as a gelding?



)

Myrna


----------



## Katiean (Mar 23, 2010)

(Do you really need him to be a stud? Would you enjoy him more as a gelding?



)

The problem with gelding him is $$$. I got one estimate for gelding for $350 from a vet that I did not use. So I thought I would get an estimate from a vet that I did use. They said $550 min. I am investigating a vet that is about 65 miles away from me that I was told did my farriers stud for $150. I just haven't done it yet.


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 23, 2010)

My gosh! Is he a cryptorchid? That seems awfully high! I haven't had one gelded in a few years, but I think it was less than $100.


----------



## Katiean (Mar 24, 2010)

No and the place that gave me the $500 plus estimate inspected him and signed my stud cert. for AMHA. It would be a quick snip snip. But like one emergency vet (for my dog) said to me "We have bills to pay too". Well not with my money buddy. If anyone knows of a vet close to Reno that doesn't charge an arm and a leg and a bit of something else to geld Let me know.

On a driving note. I think he found his forward gear. He gets irritated when I ask him to stop because he knows I am just gonna ask for him to go again. What a nut.


----------



## Kathy2m (Mar 24, 2010)

Do you have a university close by that has a vet program? Im in Fl and UF is about 1 1/2 from me they only charge 85.00 from what I have been told. I just had a pony done by my vet and it was 317.00.


----------



## Katiean (Mar 24, 2010)

Kathy2m said:


> Do you have a university close by that has a vet program? Im in Fl and UF is about 1 1/2 from me they only charge 85.00 from what I have been told. I just had a pony done by my vet and it was 317.00.


The closest university with a vet program in UC Davis. That is 165mi more or less. It wouldn't be worth the trip. I still need to call the vet in Gardenerville. About a 65 mile drive.


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 24, 2010)

Wow. Find a cow vet. Last I knew (it's been quite a few years, probably about 15), they charged $10 for castrating a calf! There is no way your average dairy or beef farmer is going to pay rates like that. It's not a complicated procedure. They don't even sew them up!


----------



## disneyhorse (Mar 24, 2010)

Vets here average $250+ for gelding procedures.

Andrea


----------



## Mominis (Mar 25, 2010)

Mine was gelded in January and it was just under $100.


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 25, 2010)

Have you found a place to get Dusty moving forward? Is he still trying to smell the ground?


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 25, 2010)

This thread inspired me to go call my vet and see what I could expect to pay for my colt to get gelded next year. We thought it was pricey having Kody done for $250 six years ago and I wasn't expecting much more than that.

Well, it turns out if I get it done before he's 2, it will _only_ cost me $450 + the $75 farm call + $80 in blood work + any aftercare meds!!!










If I have him done after 2 years old, it will be an additional $100.



Wow.



I feel so...special.

This is not rocket science. How on earth can anyone justify charging that much for a few-minute procedure done in my own backyard?? As usual, I think I will be shopping for another vet because of dollar issues. I want to use the vets I know and trust, but I could buy a new harness for the cost of getting my horse gelded by that clinic. I can't justify the money when I could get the same results for half. My sudden sympathies to you, Katiean.

Leia


----------



## susanne (Mar 25, 2010)

Definitely call around, but also be sure to get several references. Around here, the cost of gelding varies drastically from one clinic to another. Be sure to check whether or not their quote includes everything -- as Leia noted, the related expenses can make a huge difference, and what seems like a reasonable rate goes through the roof.

Leia, if you can arrange the time to travel, you might check with Liz McMaster about her vet. She highly recommends him, and even with the cost of gas you'd be way ahead in cost.


----------



## Katiean (Mar 25, 2010)

Yes, Dusty has found his forward gear. He will take much longer to train than the girls did. He really isn't stupid. He is really smart and has figured ways around me. I just have to adjust and stay one step ahead of him. For some reason he does get irritated when he is asked to "Whoa". He does stop and will stand very still and calm. It is when he is stopping that the head tossing and obvious irritation happens. Maybe it is because he figures I am just gonna ask him to go again and he sees no reason for all of the stopping and starting. Ever been on a road trip with a guy? I can just hear him saying "Why do you want to stop again? We just got going."


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 25, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> This is not rocket science. How on earth can anyone justify charging that much for a few-minute procedure done in my own backyard??


I asked my student what he was charged recently from his vet, and it was around that $350 mark! Unbelievable! I really do think that the difference comes with the word "equine"! A vet who works primarily on equines for some reason can justify charging more. We have a "diversified" vet. He is much more realistic in his pricing.

Myrna


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 25, 2010)

Katiean said:


> For some reason he does get irritated when he is asked to "Whoa". He does stop and will stand very still and calm. It is when he is stopping that the head tossing and obvious irritation happens. Maybe it is because he figures I am just gonna ask him to go again and he sees no reason for all of the stopping and starting. Ever been on a road trip with a guy? I can just hear him saying "Why do you want to stop again? We just got going."


Make sure that when he stops, you let him know that was the right choice, like some "happy" words ("Good Boy", etc.) and possibly some pets around the neck. Make the right thing easy and desirable. Eventually, he will enjoy the opportunity to "please" you.

If he is starting to act bored, change it up a little by asking for more or less speed. Keep him thinking. Minis HATE to be bored!

Myrna


----------



## Mominis (Mar 26, 2010)

Could his irritation with stopping be that he dislikes the bit bressure involved? If so, can you halt him strictly off of voice command and then slowly creep up a little bit bressure on him as he gets more happy about being stopped? Just a thought.


----------



## MiLo Minis (Mar 27, 2010)

I find when you are working with horses in training that it is quite often easiest to ask for whoa when they are ready to stop



A horse that is fit and full of himself seldom wants to give you a good solid whoa. If you wait, work them well and then ask for the whoa they are ready to give it. Then you give them the BIG reward by quitting. Next time you go out they will likely give you that hard, steady whoa without question. There really shouldn't be a great deal of bit pressure involved. Close your hands and let them "run into" a wall. If they don't like bit pressure they will stop.


----------



## Dream (Mar 28, 2010)

It may not be rocket science but it IS surgery and a potentially life threatening procedure if not done properly. There is no comparison between castrating a calf and a horse (Trust me, I've done both). Prices will vary tremendously but if you ask me less than $150 is too cheap and greater than $500 for a routine field castration is too much. If you want cheap a mennonite/amish can do it but many will die in their hands. Cost goes down if you eliminate pain meds, antibiotics, tetanus vaccine and anesthesia (ropes can be used to tie them down).

Call me biased but I had to put my 0.02 in on this one.


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 28, 2010)

My reasoning for "comparing" calf and colt castration was not so much in the procedure, as it was in the cost of the vet. The vets around here that do strickly horses charge way more than the ones that work on all animals. Our vet used anesthesia and pain meds (the stud already had tetanus included in his annual shots), but it still didn't come to over $100. (I don't remember if we used antibiotics, it was a couple of years ago.)

I don't say this to irritate anyone, it is just reality around here. We have $500 vets here, too, but I don't think they are worth any more than our vet who has GREAT "bedside" (our horses LOVE him), is practical, reasonable, and will readily admit when he is stumped and wants a second opinion. (We have vets here that think they know everything, then when stuff goes wrong for a particular client, the client calls our vet who fixes the problem for half the price.) What our vet doesn't have is a "brand name". There are owners around here that pride themselves on using X vet and clinic. I think it gives them some sense of "worth". We also have some vets who will only work on X client's horses, regardless of someone's ability to pay. Our vet doesn't play those political games. I also realize that pricing can also be "market-driven", so what is reality for us may not be available for others. I wouldn't give up our vet for all the tea in China!



(Although I don't drink tea....



)


----------



## DarkhHorseFarms (Mar 29, 2010)

Kathy,

The vet here in Fallon charged me $185 last year for a NORMAL castration; I brought him into the vet.

I have used them for years and am very happy with how (certian DR's there) take care of my Minis.

A couple of them have gone out of their way to become educated on certian issues Minis can have.

PM or Email me if you need the NAME and NUMBER.

Lisa


----------

