# Need a multi-purpose show cart - Any ideas??/



## willowsedgebelgians (Nov 22, 2010)

I have several minis. The first is a draft type mini gelding. He MOVES, but man is he built like a brick house. He has a complete draft harness to match my big horses, but I'm showing him a metal easy entry because its what I've got. The second is a nice stud that I picked up for the right price. He is fancy with lots of knee and hock action. With some finish work he should make a nice pleasure type. I've got his harness on order and borrowed a cheap one to get him driving. He does fine in the same cart as the draft type. The third is a really sweet mini broodmare. She is the same size as the draft but will definately be a western type. She came home to be broke for my son to drive and play with as the other 2 are way to much for him to handle yet.

Here's the problem... I can only haul one cart in my horse trailer with the minis. (My hubby would kill me if I asked him to drive the draft horse semi to a mini show- really not his thing!) I am looking for a cart that would work for all three. I have looked at buying a Jerald or a Graber, but I don't think it would look right behind the draft type. Does anyone out there know of anyone who would be able / willing to do custom work? I was thinking that maybe a pleasure type cart with wooden wheels (I know I can order that) and a changeable seat would work for all of my little ones. I live in OH close to Amish country, but alot of what I've seen seems heavy/thick for the pleasure types.

If someone would help me as to how to post a pic I can show you what I'm looking at with the draft type, and I'm sure everyone knows what a pleasure type cart horse looks like...


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## RhineStone (Nov 22, 2010)

How tall are your horses?

For posting a photo, you need them first posted on the web somewhere (your own website or a photo sharing site). Then you can right click on the photo, pull up the Properties, and Copy the Address into the Insert Image icon on the screen where you post a message.

Myrna (who looked the other day for the "official" How to Post a Photo directions and couldn't find them either.




)


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## disneyhorse (Nov 22, 2010)

Country Carriages USA

Maybe the top vehicle would do for your trio? It's pretty versatile... I WANT one!

Andrea


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## willowsedgebelgians (Nov 22, 2010)

I love that cart! I have seen several similar to it on websites as I have been surfing. That one did look a little less thick though. But, would it look right behind a finer pleasure type? The wheels seem awful big for what I've seen the light harness horses shown in. Am working on pics. They are all stored on my computer, but none are online anywhere.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 23, 2010)

That is a lovely cart and would look good for a draft horse. The one pictured is not the Mini size I don't believe - that is why it looks so big. You could also use it for pleasure/carriage driving and in the breed show ring but it wouldn't be highly competitive in breed showing. I think you would be further ahead to get a cart that comes with both wooden and wire wheels. The wooden wheels are fine on grass or firmer footing but they cut in and drag in deeper footing found in breed show rings. I would be inclined to get a naturally stained Graber or Jerrald with both sets of wheels as it would be more versatile for you and easier for the lighter horse to pull. You could get an interchangeable custom seat made for it if you wanted.


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## willowsedgebelgians (Nov 23, 2010)

Yeah, I didn't think that was mini size either. But beyond that the wheels just seem tall compared to the rest of the cart. I would liken this more to my draft meadowbrook that I've got. Would look great behind the draft type! Does anyone have have any pics of a houghton or gerald with the wooden wheels. I've seen them where you could buy them interchangeable, but I don't know if I've ever seen with the wood ones on. It is acceptable to show with the wooden wheels right? I can't say that I would ever show AMHA or AMHR, but the stallion might do PTHA. My husband's family shows paint and pinto stock horses so we might do some of those shows with them.

Someone asked about size - all three are B sized. The gelding and the mare are both just over 36", the stud is 35". They are all willing workers, but I don't want to terrorize any of them with too heavy a cart. The draft type is STRONG. He loves to pull and go to work. If I had that kind of attitude/work ethic in my Belgians I probably never would get them shown! Heck, I might never get them to lead if they acted like him.

Also, I know that pleasure harness do not have the breeching and the theory is to tie the horse in. Are thimbles acceptable on mini harness? I am all about safety and I get a little nervous about not having great "brakes". The stallion does not like the shafts to be cranked down ultra tight and while he is by no means sloppy in the cart, if something happens...


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## Kendra (Nov 23, 2010)

Here's my Jerald with wooden wheels:






And with the pneumatic wheels:






I use the wooden wheels for driving trials and pleasure shows - basically whenever I'm showing outdoors on grass. I use the pneumatic tires on dirt because the wooden wheels dig in and make it hard pulling, though wooden wheels are perfectly acceptable in the show ring. The second photo is from an AMHA show and as you can see, Hawk's got his breeching on. Not that I used it all the time in the breed ring this year, but when I had the cart that had footman's loops I did. At this particular show he was Grand under one judge and Reserve under the other in Classic Pleasure. I certainly wouldn't hesitate to use your breeching if that's what you're comfortable with. Though, maybe not in roadster. ;-)


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## Minxiesmom (Nov 23, 2010)

This is my Jerald with 30" wooden wheels on a 33" horse. I had the boot on, but with the boot off, I think it looks very similiar to the Country Carriage picture.


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 24, 2010)

A couple of items of additional information...

I believe that Jerald now offers two diameters of wooden wheels--the 30", as seen in Kendra's and minxiesmom's photos(and you'll notice, Kendra's are the 'newer' type from Jerald, with 12 spokes; minxiesmom's are the 'original' type, with 16 spokes...obviously, the 12 spoke will be lighter in weight)--and a 24" wooden wheel(not sure how many spokes, haven't noticed in pics, but I'd think probably 12 spoke.)Of course, the wooden wheels will make the 'rig' heavier overall; not sure how much, but do know that my 'original' style Jerald 16 spoke, 30" wooden wheels were relatively heavy, adding probably 20-25 lbs.(my 'guesstimate') to the overall weight of the cart.

I have seen a Jerald that was custom made with a seat back, too. It has been a while, but inquiring about such customization wouldn't hurt, if that is something you really want.

All that said, I have a Pequea 'top-of-the-line' wooden road cart, and it is virtually identical to the mini ones offered at Country Carriage(I understand they are built by brothers...)--the only visible difference I've found is that the Country Carriage one has flat hubs, while my Pequea has a 'semi'projecting hub(I forget the proper term; senior moment!!)-not a big deal at ALL, IMO. Don't know what the current prices are, but several years back, the Pequea was notably less expensive than the one from Country Carriage. John Stoltzfus owns Pequea Carriage; he does not have a website but can be reached by pnone...I'm sure you can google it up! Mine is a great little cart--and, I think, is perfectly suitable for just about any build of horse. Again, it couldn't hurt to inquire with the details of what size/build horses you have and what you feel you need.

Margo(who has tried SEVERAL, and doesn't really think there is a single cart that is 'perfect' for ALL driving pursuits, though some come much closer than others)


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## Kendra (Nov 24, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> I believe that Jerald now offers two diameters of wooden wheels--the 30", as seen in Kendra's and minxiesmom's photos(and you'll notice, Kendra's are the 'newer' type from Jerald, with 12 spokes; minxiesmom's are the 'original' type, with 16 spokes...obviously, the 12 spoke will be lighter in weight)--and a 24" wooden wheel(not sure how many spokes, haven't noticed in pics, but I'd think probably 12 spoke.)Of course, the wooden wheels will make the 'rig' heavier overall; not sure how much, but do know that my 'original' style Jerald 16 spoke, 30" wooden wheels were relatively heavy, adding probably 20-25 lbs.(my 'guesstimate') to the overall weight of the cart.


I would never have noticed the difference in the spokes!

Mine are HEAVY. I weighed them when I got them, and while I'm sure setting them on the bathroom scale wasn't 100% accurate, I got them at 22 pounds EACH. Which is significant, though Hawk doesn't seem to be bothered by the difference, and the bigger wheels do make for a smoother ride over rough ground. I, however, definitely notice the extra weight when I lift it into the van with the wooden wheels!


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 24, 2010)

You are so right, Kendra...the wooden wheels ARE HEAVY! I seem to have seriously underestimated how much they weigh! I never weighed my 16 spoke 30" ones, but if your 12 spoke ones weigh 22 lbs. each, then I'd bet the 16 spoke ones were 25 lbs. each, or even MORE!

An FYI for the original poster...the Pequea can be ordered with different diameter wheels. BE SURE to remember that wooden wheel size is expressed as the diameter WITHOUT the rubber inserts, which add 2" to the measured diameter(Example: if you ask for a 24" wheel, then measure it as it comes on the cart, it will measure a diameter of @ 26"; most hard rubber inserts add an inch all the way around, equalling a two-inch increase in measured diameter, but only a one-inch 'actual' increase in the 'riding height' of the cart. Clear as mud??





Margo


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## RhineStone (Nov 25, 2010)

willowsedgebelgians said:


> Also, I know that pleasure harness do not have the breeching and the theory is to tie the horse in. Are thimbles acceptable on mini harness? I am all about safety and I get a little nervous about not having great "brakes". The stallion does not like the shafts to be cranked down ultra tight and while he is by no means sloppy in the cart, if something happens...


Oh, here we go again!





The idea of not using breeching comes from the big horse breed show arena. But, I REALLY think that we are comparing apples to oranges in trying to emulate them. The Jeralds for a Morgan or an Arab are EXTREMELY light for those horses. The weight ratio for a mini is much different. Therefore, I would never be without breeching even in a breed ring, and even if it weren't as "popular". A good judge shouldn't hold that against you, as Kendra pointed out with her turnout. So, I really think you are on the right track to leave it on.





We showed for a few years in thimbles, but once we understood how the thimbles work in stopping the vehicle, we went to breeching. It can't be too comfortable for the mini to stop the vehicle with his withers instead of his butt. Yes, we have been over the fact that breed show horses are working on the flat for about a whole 5-10 min., so it isn't that big of a deal, but I still think the breed ring needs to migrate away from the "try to be an Arab in miniature" idea, and look at the ergonomics of the horse.

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Nov 25, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> the only visible difference I've found is that the Country Carriage one has flat hubs, while my Pequea has a 'semi'projecting hub(I forget the proper term; senior moment!!)-


We use flush hubs on our mini vehicles, and Sarvens generally on our big horse vehicles, although we have used Graber hubs which are just a little different style that "sticks out", too.

Here is a flush hub:






Here is a Sarven hub:






Jerald has their own hub that is flatter than a flush hub.

Yes, wheels are measured from felloe to felloe (wood rim), not including the rubber or the metal tire. Depending on whether or not the wheel is going to have a steel tire or a rubber tire changes the metal "rim" that is used on them, so you can't use that in the measurement, either. (They use a different metal "channel" for rubber tires than steel ones.)

Larger wheels are definitely easier for a horse to pull over rough surfaces, hence why carriage-type vehicles (not breed show vehicles) tend to have larger wheels. We show on grass, et al, and not just a flat arena. If you are just going to drive in a graded arena, smaller wheels are fine.

Myrna


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 26, 2010)

To go a bit 'sideways' on the topic....Myrna, I'd never seen the 'back side' of your blue cart. What do you call that kind of springs? I don't recall ever seeing any quite like it...very aesthetically pleasing; do they also ride nicely?

Yes, there's the 'correct' terms for the hubs! Now, I'll note that on my Pequea, there is a hub projection, but NOT as 'far out' as a full Sarven hub, but perhaps half or a bit more as much. "Semi-Sarven"???

To the OP...I concur FULLY with Myrna's position on the use of breeching, even in the breed ring.I began training my miniatures to drive in '85, starting with and still using, for everyday/training, a breeching-equipped Smuckers russet leather harness. I began showing AMHA breed show in 1991,going along with the popular style of 'no breeching, running martingale-equipped'show harness-- but as I studied the subject more, and came to fully realize the 'mechanics' of driving better, I began using my breeching-equipped harnesses in the breed show ring, at all times, and even back then, when this 'just wasn't done', I continued to have success in placing there-certainly under judges who really UNDERSTAND driving per se(NOT just roundy-round the breed ring type driving)-- and I have never gone back to subjecting my horses to that IMHO inconsiderate way of asking them to work! I also quickly found no use for a running martingale; IMO,the thing is totally unneccessary(unless the aim is to force the horse into a false 'frame'by trapping it between a tight check and a running martingale.)

As for the show ring rationalizations about 'it's only on flat ground, and only for a short time'....well, yeah, if you only enter one class, and do little warm-up...but the reality is more often that the horse stays hitched, and is driven around, sometimes in a not-so-firm, not-so-well groomed, warm-up area, in this 'uncomfortable'(to put it kindly) way, and then is shown in multiple classes in a day(being asked to BACK in all but Roadster classes...the time, IMO, that the horse is REALLY going to experience the 'discomfort' of this manner of hitching) for considerably MORE than is suggested when giving reasons why it's 'really just fine'.I would say, show in good quality, properly-fitted breeching-equipped harness with knowledge and pride!!

Margo


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## RhineStone (Nov 26, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> To go a bit 'sideways' on the topic....Myrna, I'd never seen the 'back side' of your blue cart. What do you call that kind of springs? I don't recall ever seeing any quite like it...very aesthetically pleasing; do they also ride nicely?
> 
> Yes, there's the 'correct' terms for the hubs! Now, I'll note that on my Pequea, there is a hub projection, but NOT as 'far out' as a full Sarven hub, but perhaps half or a bit more as much. "Semi-Sarven"???


Those springs are traditional C-Springs. When others have asked about C springs, this is what I think of



, not those bent metal pipe things on mini carts. They ride better than a lot of other springs on mini carts (coil, modern Cs, half elliptical, etc.), but not nearly as good as full elliptical. Part of that is their scaled down size. We have made pony vehicles with bigger C-springs and they ride A LOT better. We have these on this vehicle primarily for the aesthetics. They get a lot of looks without sacrificing too much ride. We had them custom made. They were a bit more expensive than boring ellipticals.





There are lots of other hubs besides Sarvens and Flush, but those are generally the most common on "modern" vehicles with bearings. I didn't have a photo close up of our Graber hubs, but those don't stick out as far either. I have seen articles on hubs in publications, and they are about as numerous as the different styles of springs! Sometime, I will try to get a photo of the Graber hubs, and maybe look up to see what else there is. One "issue" that we had with the Graber hubs is that we couldn't get brass hub caps for them. I guess that means there is less to polish!





Myrna


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## willowsedgebelgians (Nov 26, 2010)

What I primarily show are Belgians. The more harness, the more chrome/stainless (the heavier you can make everything



), the better! For those horses breeching is a necessity, unless you hook multiples and the front horses don't need it because there is simply nothing to back up for them other than themselves. We did a clinic for our local 4-H about 10 years ago now and I was appalled that these people tell 4-H kids that the breeching doesn't do anything and makes it heavier for the horse. They have never asked us to come back after we told these impressionable young children just how wrong their advisors were



.

From the way our local mini people talk the breeching is completely unacceptable at shows. It is good to know that there are others out there who know what each piece of the harness does and actually show in it that way. I have only showed the minis at our local shows. The draft type has been shown as a draft pony at some of the draft shows we go to. He even has one supreme championship to his name! Talk about making the pony and haflinger people mad, get beat by a mini. I got him more or less as a mascot and for my son to play with. They never told me that the minis are like potato chips and I would have a handful in the barn. Thankfully I can fit 3 mini stalls in the same amount of space as one draft horse stall, so they are not in danger of my hubby kicking them out!

Thank you to those who posted pics. I was surprised at how the wooden wheels looked on the carts. I thought they would be smaller, like the metal spoked wheels. That gives me a great idea of what I'm looking for. Maybe I will go back and look into the local Amish guys here. They should get me a better price to just make one, rather than try to buy one and retro-fit a seat. Unfortunately the one I always dealt with for Horse carts is since out of business, and he did such lovely work.

This board is a great place for info! I'm so glad that I found it


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## RhineStone (Nov 26, 2010)

willowsedgebelgians said:


> We did a clinic for our local 4-H about 10 years ago now and I was appalled that these people tell 4-H kids that the breeching doesn't do anything and makes it heavier for the horse.
> 
> From the way our local mini people talk the breeching is completely unacceptable at shows. It is good to know that there are others out there who know what each piece of the harness does and actually show in it that way.


Ignorance Is Bliss!


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## redpony8 (Nov 28, 2010)

Though it has been customary not to use breaching in pleasure it is not a rule to use or not use. To me the pleasure horse is closer to the fine harness horse and should be shown off as much as possible. The less harness restriction the better. This is only my opinion. Also I think the draft or carriage types look nice with more leather/bio on them. A fancier look to me. Most pleasure horses are shown in a lighter weight cart so breaching in the "ring" is not totally needed. IF I were out on a pleasure drive where hills were around then a breaching would be useful. MOst of your draft or carriage types have a heavier cart, which would need more of a braking action. But you do what makes you feel safe.


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## Minxiesmom (Nov 28, 2010)

This thread is diving off in a different direction, but I wanted to add my $.02! I am in agreement with Redpony8 in that the pleasure horse is prettier without the extra bulk of the breeching, and afterall, it is the prettyness we are trying to create. The caveat to this is your horse needs to be prepared to back using the saddle to push the cart back. As we all know the deeper the footing the tougher this is.

Through some expense of the horsey chiropractor, I have decided that I shall use breeching in ALL driven obstacle classes. The backing obstacles, good footing or not, caused all sorts of problems with my horse's spine. This horse was in top physical condition and very flexible, but the backing obstacles got him every time.





Oh, and Myrna, that blue cart is so COOL!


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## Sue_C. (Nov 28, 2010)

> To me the pleasure horse is closer to the fine harness horse and should be shown off as much as possible. The less harness restriction the better.


While I do agree it LOOKS better, I take the horse's comfort into consideration over looks...so I always use a breeching, although in the pleasure ring, I will use a false breeching with a seasoned horse...the green horses will wear it on their harness.


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## RhineStone (Nov 28, 2010)

redpony8 said:


> To me the pleasure horse is closer to the fine harness horse and should be shown off as much as possible. The less harness restriction the better. Most pleasure horses are shown in a lighter weight cart so breaching in the "ring" is not totally needed. IF I were out on a pleasure drive where hills were around then a breaching would be useful. MOst of your draft or carriage types have a heavier cart, which would need more of a braking action. But you do what makes you feel safe.


The difference between a mini and the fine harness horses of the big horse show ring (saddlebreds, arabs, etc.) is that those horses are pulling a totally different ratio of weight. Your typical Arab or Saddlebred is about 900-1000 lbs. The Jerald cart they are pulling or holding back is about 150 lbs. and let's say the average human is 150 lbs. So that is 300 lbs. to 900 lbs. or a 1:3 ratio. The average 300 lb. mini is pulling and holding back a cart of about a 100 lbs. (I took a guess) and the same 150 lb. human (or more in many cases). So the weight ratio is about 1:1 or at best 1:2. I would say that is comparing apples to oranges.

In the process of braking without breeching, the wrap straps on a fine harness engage which are attached to the saddle through the tugs. The saddle rotates some, and unless the saddle has gullet clearance, this rotation can actually pinch the spine. We had a AMHR National Top Ten mare that started to refuse to back for seemingly no good reason. It's not that she wasn't taught properly, she had placed at Nationals. Until we figured out that the saddle was rotating and pinching her 16 yr. old spine, it was an actual battle to get her to back even on a hard surface backing downhill. When we finally analyzed the mechanics of how the harness was fitting (the same harness and cart that had been to Nationals), we added the breeching. The mare initially refused to back up until she realized that the process didn't hurt. Then she took another step. Backing problem was solved and she went back to being a successful driving horse again. We have NEVER not used breeching since. We don't find it just _useful_. We find it a necessity. We learned the "why" for the equipment and it had absolutely nothing to do with looks.






When using breeching, the breeching straps are attached to the cart. When the horse slows or stops, the breeching "pushes" on the horse's big meaty haunches instead of rotating the saddle into the spine or pushing on the horse's withers. Muscle and fat can take a whole lot more "blow" than bone can. And the breeching pressure is distributed over a greater surface area. It also helps the horse stop with more "rounding". Properly fitted breeching does nothing to restrict the horse at all. If it did, the World-level carriage drivers that showed at the World Equestrian Games in Kentucky in Oct. wouldn't have used it when Driven Dressage is a major part of the score. I guarantee it.

I really don't think that using breeching or not has much to do with feeling safe in the breed ring. It is done all the time. As far as looks go, I find that secondary to the comfort and performance of my horse. This practice of keeping the traces slack or using a quick hitch and having the mini pull the cart with their ribs I find inhumane as well (see above weight ratio). It is my wish that mini exhibitors would ignore what goes on in the big horse ring and do what is good for _their_ horse. Do what you want, but _please_ understand what you are doing.

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Nov 28, 2010)

Minxiesmom said:


> Oh, and Myrna, that blue cart is so COOL!


Thank you. We designed and built it ourselves. It is too heavy for an A horse, though. We use it with my big B. When we do it again, I have another idea for a different box.

Myrna


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 29, 2010)

Thank you, Myrna! Wonderfully well-explained.

Margo


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