# Stud breeding Daughter



## Horse Feathers (Apr 18, 2009)

Would it be a bad idea to breed a stud to his daughter? I have not breed a mare to the stud yet to get the daughter, I just would like to know the pros and cons.


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## minie812 (Apr 18, 2009)

JMO


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## icspots (Apr 18, 2009)

I've done it and gotten some awesome results, you just have to make sure it is because they compliment each other and not because it is the handiest solution!


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 18, 2009)

I have done it many many times with good results, in fact I have never really thought twice about in breeding...BUT and it is a huge BUT, you do have to know your bloodlines and you have to know _exactly_ why you are doing it....IMO, having the stallion and his daughter so you breed them together cos she is the only mare you've got, is not, for example, a good reason to do this mating.

Having and exceptional stallion and an exceptional mare who is also his daughter, and believing the offspring will be better than either, _is_ (again, IMO) a good reason to try it, and then to ruthlessly judge the offspring for quality.

I have found that, if you wish to inbreed, grand daughter to grand-sire is a stronger breeding, with a complete outcross in the middle, but in the cases that I have done this breeding I have had good results.


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## Matt73 (Apr 18, 2009)




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## MindyLee (Apr 18, 2009)

Sorry that I really have no answer for your question, but I never plan on doing it. Some farms do like Little King (I think or just granddaughters). BUT I they are better at figuring out what is a correct cross without having any issues on the outcome of the foal. They are very educated and have over 30 yrs experiance in doing that kind of cross/line breeding. I know that my stud Sentra, his father is also his grandfather which makes him a double bred King Supreme son. But for some other farms, you will see their horses with X3 - X6 crosses and I even seen once a stud with X11 crosses to 1 horse. I will be having a foal anyday that will have X4 King Supreme and X2 Buckeroo BUT the crosses are far and inbetween where I feel safe with what the foal should turn out AWESOME!!! (& hopefully a filly for once









)


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## Littleum (Apr 18, 2009)

It is done, and is more common then you'd think. All sorts of linebreeding/inbreeding is done in all domesticated animals. Grosshill Egyptian King's Double Cross, a National Grand Champion, was the result of a brother x sister mating. There are all sorts of double and triple breds Bucks, Blues, Orions, Kings, Rowdy's, Galahads...



HOWEVER.

*Linebreeding and inbreeding are tools left in the hands of experienced and expert breeders. *

You linebreed/inbreed to fix traits. The theory is that by breeding horses with a similar phenotype (physical traits) that also have similar pedigrees, you increase the chances of getting the desired physical traits with a concentration of the genetics, so that the resulting horse is exceptionally "potent" for those traits.

There's of course the inherit risk of fixing the unwanted traits. Inbreeding/linebreeding is also a way of turning over the genetic rock, so to speak, and seeing what's under there. When you start doubling up on wanted genes, you stand just as good a chance as doubling up on the unwanted.

So if you're going to do this, the horses in question really (really) have to be outstanding individuals. If there's something you don't like about either of them, mating them together isn't going to fix the problem.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 18, 2009)

Matt I am sorry my reply offends you so much, I have only been breeding horses for just over forty years, maybe when I have been breeding a bit longer I shall have some bad results, but I have not done so yet.

After all, my advisor and mentor was only head of Obstetrics at the Royal Veterinary College, maybe he got it wrong????


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## Matt73 (Apr 18, 2009)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Matt I am sorry my reply offends you so much, I have only been breeding horses for just over forty years, maybe when I have been breeding a bit longer I shall have some bad results, but I have not done so yet.After all, my advisor and mentor was only head of Obstetrics at the Royal Veterinary College, maybe he got it wrong????



LOL. I'm not offended in the least. I know that many modern breeds of dogs, horse, cats and many other animals have arisen due to inbreeding and line-breeding. I'm not ignorant. And I know that line breeding is done to improve on certain traits. However, I wouldn't do it because I'm not experienced. My






is just a reaction to the thought of it


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## backwoodsnanny (Apr 18, 2009)

I know at many farms the linebreeding is done with father and daughter and grandfather granddaughter but also would like to know if this is true for mother son and grandmother/grandson is the premise the same or is there a reason that this is not done with mothers/sons and grandmothers /grandsons?


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## kaykay (Apr 18, 2009)

I have seen some great foals as a result but I have also seen horrendous results (deformed foals). I would think long and hard and really study the pedigrees before I would attempt that.


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## Magic (Apr 18, 2009)

The closest ( I think the ONLY) inbreeding/linebreeding I've done is half brother/sister. I thought about it long and hard first, and it was a bit scary for me. Luckily, the foal is absolutely exquisite.





I don't think I'd try the father/daughter cross, myself.


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## Matt73 (Apr 18, 2009)

Magic said:


> The closest ( I think the ONLY) inbreeding/linebreeding I've done is half brother/sister. I thought about it long and hard first, and it was a bit scary for me. Luckily, the foal is absolutely exquisite.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I thought that the one thing you never cross is brother and sister. That doesn't apply to half brothers and half sisters?


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## sdmini (Apr 18, 2009)

In general the answer is no don't do it.

In line breeding you are, simplistically, trying to reproduce the original animal, in most cases the stallion. Because of this you want to start off with a very nice specimen. Breeding him to his daughters that share the same traits that make him exceptional will hopefully set those characteristics. So if I have a stallion with a gorgeous head and neck and bred him to his daughters that have that same head and neck the working theory is that those foals produced should have that same head and neck and produce it again when they are in turn bred. Now the downfall is if my same stallion with the gorgeous head and neck also is cowhocked and I bred him to his daughters that are the same way I've just set that trait as well. So now I have a stallion known for gorgeous heads and neck as well as producing cowhocked individuals.



Linebreeding can also affect size as well.

You get 1/2 your genetic makeup from each parent so crossing 1/2 siblings only 50% of their genetic make up will be identical, same as father/daughter. Full siblings are different as 100% of their genetic make up would be identical.


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## Littleum (Apr 18, 2009)

sdmini said:


> You get 1/2 your genetic makeup from each parent so crossing 1/2 siblings only 50% of their genetic make up will be identical, same as father/daughter. Full siblings are different as 100% of their genetic make up would be identical.


Going by the math, yes. Full sibling x full sibling is the closest possible mating.

Reality is that parents don't pass on the same genes 100% of the time. There is infinite genetic variation between family members despite a close common ancestor. You can see the family resemblence in my sister and I, but I got the Haglund family hips, she got the Bennett family midsection. (



) I'm nearly 6', she's 5'7". We both do have outrageously long and thick hair, the same shade of ashen blond and the same shade of eyes. So we resemble each other but we're not anything close to identical.

To say that siblings have an "identical" genetic makeup is totally wrong. To imply that half-sibs inherit the same genes time after time is wrong. Not every egg and sperm carries the exact same genetic starter materials. (with the exception of the maternal mitochondrial DNA)

Inbreeding/linebreeding is the attempt to create that ability by trying to stack the deck so nothing else can be inherited, and nothing else can be passed on.


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## Matt73 (Apr 18, 2009)

sdmini said:


> In general the answer is no don't do it.
> In line breeding you are, simplistically, trying to reproduce the original animal, in most cases the stallion. Because of this you want to start off with a very nice specimen. Breeding him to his daughters that share the same traits that make him exceptional will hopefully set those characteristics. So if I have a stallion with a gorgeous head and neck and bred him to his daughters that have that same head and neck the working theory is that those foals produced should have that same head and neck and produce it again when they are in turn bred. Now the downfall is if my same stallion with the gorgeous head and neck also is cowhocked and I bred him to his daughters that are the same way I've just set that trait as well. So now I have a stallion known for gorgeous heads and neck as well as producing cowhocked individuals.
> 
> 
> ...


Only identical twins share the exact same DNA. Not normal siblings.


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## sdmini (Apr 18, 2009)

Matt73 said:


> Only identical twins share the exact same DNA. Not normal siblings.






Ok guys I was being simplistic as to why it's not kosher to bred full siblings verse 1/2 siblings. I find most people are not looking for long drawn out explanations but rather the drive thru version so sorry if I glossed ever a point or two.


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## uwharrie (Apr 18, 2009)

I think anytime you are talking about breeding, you need to know the "long drawn out version'. If a person does not have a grasp of at least simple genetics and inheritance patterns they should NOT be breeding.



sdmini said:


> Matt73 said:
> 
> 
> > Only identical twins share the exact same DNA. Not normal siblings.
> ...


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## icspots (Apr 18, 2009)

I'm gonna get flamed for this but oh well, it has been going through my mind for awhile since the last thread on line/inbreeding. On THIS thread we get all the moral and righteous indignation over the whole thing, nobody is qualified but the big farms to decide this type of breeding etc. Then I watch all of the foal announcements about "my triple bred buckeroo mare and my double bred double destiny stallion.....



HELLO, are we not seeing the hypocracy here?? I believe that Rabbits Fizz probably knows enough to realize that if she is doing this she doesn't want to be saddled with crap, same with me and everybody else that does this breeding. Those big farms have their fair share of ugh babies by doing far more experimenting than the average person who has fewer horses is therefore more attached to each individual and is probably going to be MORE careful when making these decisions. As far as qualifications? Well I guess that is just a little bit subjective now isn't it??


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## backwoodsnanny (Apr 18, 2009)

All these posts and still no one answered my question about mother to son as opposed to father to daughter is it the same? I happen to think that the mare is equally important in any mating as the stallion so is mother to son done in linebreeding or grandmother to grandson the same as is done for the male in the equation?


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## Minimor (Apr 18, 2009)

some say look carefully at the pedigree, but I would suggest looking very, very carefully at the stallion and the offspring he produces. Don't just breed him to his daughter because he has a wonderful pedigree and a pretty head, and so does the daughter--be VERY critical of conformation, and take notice of every little conformation flaw.

When you outcross you might get away with thinking oh, my stallion's hip is a little short, but the mare has a nice long hip, so the two should balance each other out in the foal. When you breed that stallion back to his own daughter, you are going to set his qualities, good and bad. That slightly short hip he's got might be magnified 5 times in the foal you get from him & his daughter.

You need to be very honest about your horses' traits if you are going to use inbreeding or even linebreeding in your program.


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## Genie (Apr 18, 2009)

My only comment is that I have been told that the results of inbreeding can be either very very good, or very very bad.

That response came from the son of a local vet who has been breeding horses for over 40 years, and his dad, the vet, just passed away at 90 some years of age and was a renowned vet for the area horse breeders.

We haven't done it but I might consider doing so some time in the future if I see a good reason to take the chance.

I would venture to say that we are all breeding by making an evaluation of the two horses we are considering to cross in attempt to have a better result than the parents.


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## Riverdance (Apr 18, 2009)

I have said this before. I am a breeder of some of the top Tibetan Terriers in the country. They got there because they were line bred.

Do I in breed, not too often, as we have hip problems as well as eye problems if one is not careful. Would I do it if I wanted to get a certain trait? You bet.

Do I plan on doing it with my horses, *YOU BET*

I have a stallion who has a body and head to die for, a hip like no other too. He is refined, up headed and beautiful. Where I fault him is his neck. It is a bit shorter and thicker then I would like. He gets his refineness, and head from his dam, his body and hip from his sire. As well as his shorter thicker neck. I bred him last year to a few mares, one being a 1/2 sister to his dam. The resulting filly is outstanding. He has 3 live foals on the ground now who are yearlings. All three have his hip and body and two have his head (the other I have not seen since she was a weanlig as she is over a friends house). Two of the mares he was bred to did not have big hips, one had almost no hip at all. So, it seems he is strong in producing his big hip and pretty head. His dam needs the hip, but has the head and long slim neck. Now if I breed him back to his dam, hopefully I will get that long slim neck, pretty head and his hip.

I also have a 1/2 sister to him. Out of his dam and Windchaser. Windchaser is a 1/2 brother to his dam, so this 1/2 sister is already a product of 1/2 brother to 1/2 sister. She has the long slim neck and exquisit head of both of her parents, but needs the hip. She too will be bred to her 1/2 brother.

Now hopefully, I will get two outstanding foals. Both with long slim necks, exquisit heads and Desperdos body. By the way, Desperdo is a palomino, as is his dam and his 1/2 sister, so I will hope to also get some cremellos.






Now, to take this further. If I get what I am hoping for, the resulting foals will be genetic powerhouse breeders. Those foals will need to be outcrossed, but they should be very stong in reproducing their good traits.

One has to be very carefull when doing this kind of breeding. One needs to know what their horses are producing. Just breeding pedigree to pedigree or color to color will not get you what you are looking for. Certain lines should not be doubled, tripled or more. Thick necks bred to thick necks are only going to give you thicker necks. Same with coarse to coarse. If both have no hips, then the resulting foal is going to have no hip either. In other words, they need to complement each other, looking to improve where one needs improvement (and knowing that one of the horses is strong in making that improvement)


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 19, 2009)

backwoodsnanny said:


> All these posts and still no one answered my question about mother to son as opposed to father to daughter is it the same? I happen to think that the mare is equally important in any mating as the stallion so is mother to son done in line breeding or grandmother to grandson the same as is done for the male in the equation?


Oops, sorry, did not see that!!!

I have done both...although I have to say I thought hard and long and sought advice before I did the son X mother one.

I did it in total five times and got five of the best horses I have ever bred, I still have their grandchildren...I still have two daughters, in fact.

I had no hereditary problems from it, no conformational problems...well, it goes without saying that, whilst no horse is perfect, you do not do this close a mating with anything that is not as near as can be perfect.

I had NO problems.

In point of fact, we should not be anthropomorphising about this, it happens quite a lot in the equine in the wild...some types of horses (there are at least five different, identified, types of behaviour in horse breeds, in fact the breeds can be grouped according to behaviour) will drive all yearlings out of the herd, some will only drive out colts. Some stallions stay with the herd all year, some come anew each spring.

As you can see in at least some cases the stallion will be keeping his own daughters in the herd, and breeding them.

If he does not die or get usurped, this same stallion, in a couple of years time, will be breeding his daughters that are by him and out of his daughters...and so on until nature breaks the line and fresh blood comes in.

We have no reason to suppose that this does nay harm to the animals involved.

One of the main reasons Feral horse are poorly conformed is not because of in or line breeding but purely because they are, in the first instance, breeding to different criteria than those that we require, and in the second place, humans come along and, time after time, take the best and leave the "scrubs"!!!


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## ~Lisa~ (Apr 19, 2009)

While this makes no sense at all to me and the logic completly escapes me ( I must just be missing something here) I have been told by breeders of both small and large horses who line breed that somehow there is a difference in doing a Mother/Son and a Father/Daughter. The genes are different? Like I said I do not understand how or why that would be.

Line breeding is not a horrible thing in fact it is the quickest way to set a type and many do it. Qualifications for me are more then being a big farm what exactly is a big farm anyway? A farm who produces 50 + foals a year with a percentage being what they were hoping for? A farm with 100+ horses with about 10 showing and doing well? A small farm with 15 horses most who show and do well even if they produce 3 foals a year?

The answer is different for everyone as to what makes a "big" farm.

I do think one needs to be able to take a long hard honest look at their horses and ask others to help them see what they are not seeing in the breeding pair. I think you need to be prepared for a huge disappointment if the doubling up happens on points you did not want instead of what you did want.

I have not done it yet. We do sell most of our foals and I can not seem to help gelding the boys



I have a limit of horses I have set for myself and for one to stay another must go - that is not so easy to convince Raven of but if I had the right combo I would feel confident in line breeding.


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## Horse Feathers (Apr 19, 2009)

Thanks for all the replys. If one of my mares has a superior filly I wont be scared to keep her to see if as an adult would cross well with my stud.


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## Reble (Apr 19, 2009)

Horse Feathers said:


> Would it be a bad idea to breed a stud to his daughter? I have not breed a mare to the stud yet to get the daughter, I just would like to know the pros and cons.


I believe in the beginning, this would have had to be done to achieve our smaller miniature horses.

Stud to daughter in most breedings are acceptable, but again as many have mentioned need to be two good miniature horses. (Just about perfect.)


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