# kill buyers



## mis fit farms (Jan 9, 2006)

ok quick show of hands who thinks horse slaughter is good for the horse market?


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## tuffsmom (Jan 9, 2006)

IMHO, I do not like the thought of it,..... but I do think that it is a "necessary evil".


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## mininik (Jan 9, 2006)

:saludando: Horse slaughter has been discussed in length to the point of personal attacks in another topic started just a couple days ago that has since been closed. As I've posted before I DO believe horse slaughter is a "necessary evil" although the cruel way it is done and why it continues in mass needs to be changed.


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## shminifancier (Jan 9, 2006)

I also agree with the 2 previous posters, we need tighter trucking regulations., and tighter control AT the USDA plants to insure humane treatment of the animals..


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## Sonya (Jan 9, 2006)

> ok quick show of hands who thinks horse slaughter is good for the horse market?


no, it's not good for the horse market, but I agree with the above posters who say it is a necessary evil.


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Jan 9, 2006)

I agree with all of the above posters.

-Amy


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Jan 9, 2006)

It's only a necessary evil because we *all* make it that way. Everyone contributes to the necessity of it in their own ways. So while I DON'T think it's the most wonderful thing since sliced bread, like some do, it's all we seem to have for the moment. I'd love to see other options but as long as people are selfish and greedy it's unlikely to ever end. There are just as many people overbreeding and considering animals nothing but disposable garbage as there are people who want to see and help make a difference, probably many more of the former than I ever realized before.

However those who do want to do any tiny thing to go against the majority to affect change are viewed as fools and attacked for too many reasons to mention. As they say, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished and I'm sure the original poster learned that lesson in spades here. All I can think is no wonder people won't get involved anymore since all it means is being attacked by the same old tired mean-spirited rhetoric everytime. :no:

And for the record I don't think slaughter is good for the horse market because it only proves we can't even take care of what we have now.


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## kaykay (Jan 9, 2006)

i just want to give one opinion here on why americans dont eat horses. I posted this a couple years ago and was flamed for it but hey its my opinion.

Americans dont eat horses because here they are held in high regard. They settled this country and defended this country. They saved soldiers lives (and yes occassionally they had to eat their horses to stay alive but thats a whole different thing) When this country was being formed your horse was your lifeline. If your horse got sick etc you were in a heap of trouble as your transportation, communication etc was gone.

There is imo a HUGE difference between eating a horse and eating a cow. Yes we had to have cows also when this country was being settled but the horse was different. I never heard of a cow going into battle. If you read about the military horses from back then they had complete bonds with their riders. They had to be trained to literally head straight into battle without turning away. Even then it was considered a huge disgrace to eat a horse unless you were dying and had no other option.

Is horse slaughter a neccessary evil? Yes. Can we make it better? Yes.


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## ~LadyBug~ (Jan 9, 2006)

Kay, :aktion033: :aktion033: I agree!

Horse slaughter is not going to be stopped right now, its impossible. But we do have the power to change things. The rules and regulations NEED to be our main focus right now, and humane treatment of the horses is somehting that we CAN work on!

Realistically, yea people overbreed. If it can reproduce, humans seem to have a fetish with causing it to do so. This is really pretty sad if you think about it. Why can't we just enjoy our animals, and if they are honestly a specimen that deserves its genes to be shared, and theres more than the owners opinion on that, then breed it. but you #*$( better well take responsibility for the life you created.

JMHO.

Ashley


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## ClickMini (Jan 9, 2006)

NONONO AND FURTHERMORE NO!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If a horse has no useful or pain-free life, it should be humanely euthanized!!! Period! End of story! Not lining it's pitiful excuse of an owner with a few last dollars wrung from it's hide.

People who send their horses to slaughter auction make me want to retch. :new_2gunsfiring_v1:


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## capall beag (Jan 9, 2006)

I am not sure horse slaughter is necessary but enthanasia of "unwanted" animals is.

I eat beef, lamb, duck, chicken etc BUT would never consider eating horse meat.

All animals deserve to be treated humanely BUT horses have so many uses other than to be eaten :no:

If no one ate beef or drank milk anymore cows would soon cease to exist.

I realise all these "excess" animals cannot be homed but do we need to slaughter them. IMO it is rewarding the irresponsible owner/breeder, they are receiving apyment for dumping their responsibility on someone else




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As it is hundreds of thousands of dogs and cats end up in shelters and are euthanised, IMAGINE how these numbers would soar if people could get paid to dump off their discarded pet



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IMO it is of no benefit to the horse that humans can over breed/ over use/ starve/beat and generally abuse a horse and then bring it to the local auction and get paid to dump it with someone who can sell it for meat.

MANY of the horses ending up heading for slaughter have been someones pet, IMAGINE the outcry if the same #'s of dogs/cats as horses were being shipped for human consumption   

Yes, right now horse slaughter is necessary BUT there is so much room for improvement.

Personally, I think it is disgusting that someone can enjoy their horse and take all the benefits from the animal and then send it to slaughter to make a final few $$. It would never be OK with me for any pet living with me to be slaughtered for it's meat. All my animals/pets deserve to RIP after they die.

Of course, this is JMHO



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: and I do not have an answer for the problem so I do not think horse slaughter shoudl cease in this country until some other suitable plan has been formed. I would be the first to say this would be a real challenge to come up with a suitable alternative








For now I feel all I can do is be a responsible pet owner for all four legged friends that live here and that are produced here!!


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## Sonya (Jan 9, 2006)

We unfortunately cannot stop horse slaughter, but like someone else said you can make a difference by insisting that animals (horse, and others) all be treated humanely prior to slughter. That's what we should be working on - fair and humane treatment of all animals bound to slaughter, right now that's all I can see we can do. We can make a difference on this! I wish there was a better solution. And remember, we all love horses here, but to some people and to other countries horses are no different than cows, pigs, chickens - which many of us eat. We need to insist that laws are intact and inforced on humane treatment to all.


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 9, 2006)

No , it is in no way good for the horse market, but it is still necessary.

Humane treatment of ALL animals, whilst being transported to, kept for, and during destruction is the way forward.

The British Empire (on which the sun never set) was built from the back of a horse (Oh and a few Mules, the odd Elephant etc)

It could not have been done without them.

In the hey day of the Horse we sort of cornered the market in the battle area.

Remember the charge of the Light Brigade, Waterloo, (NOT the ABBA song) , WW1, Mafeking, the NorthWest Frontier??

All from the back of the horse.

Yet, for some reason eating horse, although not done in England,( and if you saw the price of Beef you might seriously wonder why) does not cause the huge reaction that it does in the States. When people last blockaded the ports to stop live exports, it was calves we were stopping being trucked across to France in their hundreds to be raised in conditions there that were illegal here.

Do you eat Veal?????

We have a place in our Minis passports where we can have stamped "Not for Human Consumption"

This is automatically so stamped unless you specifically ask for it not to be done, by the registrar.

Not much, but it is a start.


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## Horse Hugs (Jan 9, 2006)

Actually, we could stop horse slaughter and I think eventually, it will be stopped. I do not think it is a "necessary evil" as some say. Its harder to change something then it is to ignore it. Look at history. Slavery is a good example. Many people felt that slavery was horrible but it took some strong, moral people to stand up and fight against it. Lots of these people lost everything for their stand but they believed it was right. The majority of people that thought it was wrong just looked the other way, saying it couldn't be changed.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Jan 9, 2006)

mis fit farms said:


> ok quick show of hands who thinks horse slaughter is good for the horse market?


i THINK what is really not good for the market is the over production of horses, and yes I am a part of that and am seriously re thinking my goals and such. However even producing 5 foals a year puts out tons of extra minis then are needed- so to me the buck really needs to stop at the breeder be it considered pet, show, or hobby or business. even one less horse per farm would make an impact

this includes very responsible breeders as well since once a horse leaves your farm even to the best of homes even if you offer to take it back should the need arrive, very few of us despite good intentions can keep track of a horse for 20+ years.


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## slaneyrose (Jan 9, 2006)

I dont agree its necessary either!! Can humans not be satisfied with the huge amount of flesh they already consume ie: cows, sheep, ostrich, duck, chicken and on and on..... I agree horses who are suffering need to be humanely destroyed, and here in Ireland if a horse dies on your property it is collected (which the owner has to pay for) to be used in the animal feed and glue industry. My biggest problem is like many of you tho in the way these poor animals are kept. So I no longer eat anything that isnt free range, killed locally and even then only now and again......there are so many options nowadays I really think its wrong to eat horses.....they are far too intelligent. :no:


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## mininik (Jan 9, 2006)

"I really think its wrong to eat horses.....they are far too intelligent."

Pigs are _incredibly_ intelligent. So it's said are chickens. Calves are adorable and cows are sacred to many. Oxen were used by thousands along side of horses pulling wagons and machinery to settle this country. Okay, so they weren't exactly ridden into battle but why is it that horses are suddenly so far removed from any other critter in the stockyard?



: If someone somewhere wants to eat horse, why not so long as it's treated humanely beforehand? Do you have any idea what a veal calf goes through to get to our fine dining establishments here in America? Or does that calf not matter so much because it's not as "intelligent" as your horse? Have you ever been passed by a semiload of CHICKENS stacked on top of eachother in filthy wire crates... it's sick. I'll say it again: Stop the Abuse, not the slaughter.


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## shminifancier (Jan 9, 2006)

For years Americans Did eat horse meat.. Just a few years back in 1986 it was still on the menu of some of the finest restaurants in New York City.. Even one episode of All In The Family Edith served Horse Meat for supper~!! And Archie, of course did not know it but loved the sweeter taste then beef.. i myself have eaten it many years ago when I was young and Grandma made i.. So Americans Have eaten Horse meat and who knows some may still if doing there own butchering etc..


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## mountain_waif (Jan 9, 2006)

....


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## Sonya (Jan 9, 2006)

"



> I really think its wrong to eat horses.....they are far too intelligent."
> Pigs are incredibly intelligent. So it's said are chickens. Calves are adorable and cows are sacred to many. Oxen were used by thousands along side of horses pulling wagons and machinery to settle this country. Okay, so they weren't exactly ridden into battle but why is it that horses are suddenly so far removed from any other critter in the stockyard?



envypoodles...you are so right. I know this might make some mad, but my chickens are far smarter than my horses and I had a cow that was way more loyal than any horse I ever had. Still I love horse, which I consider pets and not food, and I wish there was another solution, if someone comes up with one, please enlighten the world. I still stand by that what we can change is laws and conditions for slaughter bound animals, all animals.


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## Leeana (Jan 9, 2006)

I'm really sensitive when it comes to this subject so im going to keep in short.

Do we send dogs and cats off to slaughter to ship out to other countries ...?

No because we feel they are pets. But there are so many dogs out there starving and suffering, broken legs ext.

IMO all Kill Buyers want to do is make money ..i've talked to many firsthand and i have heard there opinion, its all about money ..most are pretty open and will tell you 'its all about bringing in the money'.

When we find a dog out there on the streets, its fixed up and found a home ..if only it was that easy with horses.

Leeana


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## shminifancier (Jan 9, 2006)

I love people that do pick up puppies and give them a home..But who is going to be responsible for taking in over 80,000 horses Each And every Year?? There is only a few people now that take in rescues and most of them are filled up and will not take in more.. Horses in those number cost Mega Dollars to Feed and Mega dollars for the upkeep.. Many people say No I can't feed another one, so looking at this Huge Big Picture then Who is going to do this? Who is going to save 80K+ of unwanted, unloved, and some untrained?

With the amount of people available to adopt horses Those people can't even Keep Up with the few 1,000s of wild mustangs a year that come up for adoption, I ask an very ethical question here If not you then Who is going to get these horses?

Start at the beginning and Stop the Over breeding of Horses and then there will be no need for slaughter houses to be open.....


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## sunshine2be (Jan 9, 2006)

I for one loath kill buyers!! :nono: I personally witnessed at an auction in Springboro Ohio a kill buyer trying his best to outbid this young girl who was trying to buy the most georgous Belgium mare. Little did he know that the people around this little sweetheart told her to keep bidding until he stopped that we would cover the difference.




: Come to find out she had enough on her own to buy this horse of her dreams, and outbid the scoundrel on her own... :aktion033:


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## Horse Hugs (Jan 9, 2006)

Never has it been said that two wrongs make a right. just because people eat pigs and cows doesn't make it right to eat horses.

I don't eat pork because of the very fact that pigs are so intelligent. My neighbor's pig used to follow me around like a dog and would come when you called and would roll over and play fetch. And I have never eaten veal and or lamb.


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## Marty (Jan 9, 2006)

Give me a break. It's all about MONEY.

[SIZE=18pt]People who send their horses to slaughter auction make me want to retch[/SIZE]

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Click Mini said it all :aktion033:*


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## Secret22 (Jan 9, 2006)

Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too said:


> It's only a necessary evil because we *all* make it that way. Everyone contributes to the necessity of it in their own ways. So while I DON'T think it's the most wonderful thing since sliced bread, like some do, it's all we seem to have for the moment. I'd love to see other options but as long as people are selfish and greedy it's unlikely to ever end. There are just as many people overbreeding and considering animals nothing but disposable garbage as there are people who want to see and help make a difference, probably many more of the former than I ever realized before.
> 
> However those who do want to do any tiny thing to go against the majority to affect change are viewed as fools and attacked for too many reasons to mention. As they say, "No Good Deed Goes Unpunished and I'm sure the original poster learned that lesson in spades here. All I can think is no wonder people won't get involved anymore since all it means is being attacked by the same old tired mean-spirited rhetoric everytime. :no:
> 
> And for the record I don't think slaughter is good for the horse market because it only proves we can't even take care of what we have now.


Well Said!! I agree it is only necessary evil because we allow it and make it that way. Breeding of so many horses needs to be cut back and slaughter will be cut back also. And there wouldnt be as much unwanted pets. But I guess easier said than done. :no:


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## Leeana (Jan 9, 2006)

If your interested, here is a link to the Kill Buyer i talked with (and hopefully never have to agian, he is really not someone you want to talk with, not because he is a horse buyer ..he is just not someone i think many get along with) ..its an interview,

He runs the biggest Kill auction around these parts. The auction is held every friday and he gets about 150+ horses every friday.

He is very honest about the business ..

Just thought it would be something you would like to read.

http://www.clevescene.com/issues/2005-05-04/news/news2.html

Just thought you would be interested in it.

Leeana


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## Secret22 (Jan 9, 2006)

Horse Hugs said:


> Never has it been said that two wrongs make a right. just because people eat pigs and cows doesn't make it right to eat horses.
> 
> I don't eat pork because of the very fact that pigs are so intelligent. My neighbor's pig used to follow me around like a dog and would come when you called and would roll over and play fetch. And I have never eaten veal and or lamb.


Amen - I am a vegetarian. I try to speak for those who can't speak for themselves!!


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## shminifancier (Jan 9, 2006)

Sending a horse to an auction and getting 200 dollars for a kill buyer is Making money? Give Me a break.......


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## stormo41 (Jan 9, 2006)

in being born, we are made one promise in life, and that is that in having life we will surely some day we will die.

this is not only true for humans but every living creature on, in, or above the world. horses that are sent to be killed are reciving their promise that life gave them. Thats all I have to say.

-Storm


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## runamuk (Jan 9, 2006)

OK I really really tried to stay away.......

It is quite simple if you breed you create a need for "killers"...it is that simple...so if you are on the soap box yet have bred your horse ever you are responsible.......

Personally here with a pet pig we eat very little pork not to mention I have never tolerated it very well....

I am not that old yet as a child we ate horsemeat.......

I was vegetarian until I got pregnant and was told in no uncertain terms to go back to meat........

I raise sheep...I sell lamb and yes I eat lamb.....my sheep have never known a day of hunger or a stockyard or harsh treatment...for the first time I did take some to the sale and that was far harder to stomach than the ones delivered from my farm to the slaughter house.....the reason was because I had no idea what conditions they were going to before meeting their demise......

Although I have met a nice cow or two for the most part I cannot stand the creatures BUT I agree they deserve humane and fair treatment prior to death which should be quick and painless....

The reason horse has become so unpalatable in the states is due in very large part to organizations like PETA...until they came along it was not something for dinner table conversation but it was accepted in a more general sense that horses are also food for many.....thank you PETA for one more lovely contribution to hysteria with no real solution



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## mis fit farms (Jan 9, 2006)

thanks yall, i have been trying to stop horse slaughter for a while!!!!i was on horsetopia horse forum today people were complaining about tighter killing laws .they were saying that they couldnt get good prices for there horses any more :no: i thought well somebody dosent have good horses !!!!!!anyway i yell at them for a while. then i start in on the part of my family that doesnt like horses :no: :new_shocked: ( i didnt know it was possible)!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## ~LadyBug~ (Jan 9, 2006)

:no: While every one of us have different opinions and ideas on this subject, I do belive that the fact remains, that RIGHT NOW under the current circumstances, there is no way to stop horse slaughter. In the future, _maybe_ but I'm not counting on it. 

There is such an overpopulation of horses, and take a look around. MANY farms are foaling out 20+ horses a year, not to mention those huge operations that have hundreds. Are they taking full responsibility for each and every life they produce? Sorry, but in most cases, no.

Can we really get this point across to every horse producing farm in the country? Will they even care? Yes we can make a commitment to do our part in taking full responsibility for our animals, but that is still going to be a very small percentage.

and What right does anyone have to say that a cow's treatment doesnt matter compared to a horses? Cows too are often treated cruelly, starved sick and lame, yet why do we not hear of activists against this???

Wouldnt it be nice if there were millions of acres of retirement farms for unwanted horses? and vets and farriers and feeders and muckers and dentists etc to take care of them without being paid? because who exactly will pay for this?

If anyone has this solution, please enlighten us. Those that are so anti-slaughter, can you please give me something that we can start working on now? I dont think anyone here WANTS to see thousands of horses sent to slaughter houses. But what exactly SHOULD be done here??

It seems like we are just running in circles. myself included so i will stop here. :no: :no:

Ashley


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## shminifancier (Jan 9, 2006)

Well for a start lets shut down the PMU farms..Those 20,000 mares producing that many babies every year is a very good start.. To start forcing the medical area to stop the production of Premarin and either going to the synthetic ones available or finding an alternative sustance...It has cut back some form 30,000 to 20,000 or is it 25,000 horses involved in Premerin production....

That along would really make a dent in the Over Production of many of the horses....Start some kind of GELDING Incentive programs IN EVERY BREED including minis~!! And MAYBE it is time to do dome thinking on maybe only maiden mare classes oh something I am not sure.... But stopping horse slaughter IMO will only lead to more horses just being kept at home starving mishandled mistreated badly because they are not loved in the first place...IMO it is a better thing for an animal to be at least out of its misery then living in a world of pain and lack of care.....And as far as the big horse breeders I believe that the gelding incentive would be a big help, now as far as race horses, I am not sure of what to do there, and need some ideas...But In the Mean time instead of stopping slaughtering get More strict and stringent laws about how to transport how to house and how to process these animals in a humane way..And there are some cattle slaughter places that do this in a humane and ethical way..and here is a link to who is doing this and how humanely a slaughter place can be..

http://www.certifiedhumane.com/index.html


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## capall beag (Jan 9, 2006)

Leeana,

Thanks for that link I thought it was very interesting!


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Jan 9, 2006)

~LadyBug~ said:


> ...
> 
> If anyone has this solution, please enlighten us. Those that are so anti-slaughter, can you please give me something that we can start working on now? I dont think anyone here WANTS to see thousands of horses sent to slaughter houses. But what exactly SHOULD be done here??
> 
> ...


Ashley It's rare anyone would even ask the question you have. I think we can only do what we can starting with personal responsibility. Horse slaughter IS declining even though the numbers each year are still massive but that tells me that at least some people are making a difference no matter how slight.

Everyone's choices can be different but for me it is unconscienable to breed any species. Before I really thought about this I bred dogs and horses but now I see the results of my and others pasts in the eyes of every unwanted animal. I see the adorable pups and kittens on posts and I can only be heartsick for their futures and the futures of their offspring. I will not patronize businesses that contribute to this misery either and refuse to spend my hard earned dollars at pet shops that sell animals to just anyone off the street.

I have taught my children and they now teach their own that animals are NOT to be disposed of when they are no longer convenient. They and I keep our pets for their entire lives, we give them proper health care, good food and do our level best to ensure their safety and comfort. We do not overwhelm ourselves with pets we cannot take care of adequately and treat them with respect and dignity. None are ever slapped around or made to fear yet they are respectful of their handlers. If and when I have enough property you can bet your boots there will be room at the inn for a retired horse or two, or as many as I can manage within my means.

Those little things done a thousand times over by thousands of people do make big differences. It's all about the little things people do that add up to the huge whole and yes if enough follow their consciences the misery WILL deline. It may never end totally but ya know, I really don't mind going to bed every night knowing I was able to do at least one tiny thing about it. I'll settle for a little something as opposed to a big nothing anytime.


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## runamuk (Jan 9, 2006)

OK we cannot police other countries...most of the PMU farms are in CANADA and they have suffered and many have been shut down....due to people being informed with just where that PILL came from.....

the only effective way to stop slaughter is to reduce demand which means STOP BREEDING plain and simple....we cannot have our cake and eat it too....did ya notice how up in arms people got about the national ID thing....aghhh infringe on their rights to do whatever they want breed as many of whatever they want...track the results of their breeding......oiy......somebody is going to have to give up their rights to stop slaughter plain and simple......so who wants to go first?



shminifancier said:


> Well for a start lets shut down the PMU farms..Those 20,000 mares producing that many babies every year is a very good start.. To start forcing the medical area to stop the production of Premarin and either going to the synthetic ones available or finding an alternative sustance...It has cut back some form 30,000 to 20,000 or is it 25,000 horses involved in Premerin production....
> 
> That along would really make a dent in the Over Production of many of the horses....Start some kind of GELDING Incentive programs IN EVERY BREED including minis~!! And MAYBE it is time to do dome thinking on maybe only maiden mare classes oh something I am not sure.... But stopping horse slaughter IMO will only lead to more horses just being kept at home starving mishandled mistreated badly because they are not loved in the first place...IMO it is a better thing for an animal to be at least out of its misery then living in a world of pain and lack of care.....And as far as the big horse breeders I believe that the gelding incentive would be a big help, now as far as race horses, I am not sure of what to do there, and need some ideas...But In the Mean time instead of stopping slaughtering get More strict and stringent laws about how to transport how to house and how to process these animals in a humane way..And there are some cattle slaughter places that do this in a humane and ethical way..and here is a link to who is doing this and how humanely a slaughter place can be..
> 
> http://www.certifiedhumane.com/index.html


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## shminifancier (Jan 9, 2006)

All I know for sure,is that this is a Way Bigger picture and way more complicated then just shutting down the slaughter places of which there is only 3 in the first place~!


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## Horse Hugs (Jan 9, 2006)

Shirley,

If only everyone thought the way you did then we would already have the problem solved.

I, myself, have never really understood breeding unless you want more animals. Why people breed every year only to advertise every year - " must reduce prices to make room in the barn for the new foals" is a mystery to me. Makes no sense to at all.

I have had every dog and cat I have ever owned spayed or neutered before they were 7 months old.


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## ClickMini (Jan 10, 2006)

Why does everyone think that slaughter is the alternative to homes for all of these unwanted animals??? Which would you prefer...getting an injection and going to sleep? Or being slammed into a feedlot to wait until all the drugs/wormers clear their system, with all kinds of other horses biting, kicking...so scared, confused. I have been to a feedlot, I have rescued horses. I have managed a no-kill animal shelter. I have two PMU babies here. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT HERE. It is NOT the only alternative, a humane death is euthanasia.

I will not argue the point about other species. I don't agree with the transport and handling of those, either. But let's start with the ones who give each and every one of us daily pleasure and love, *our horses*.


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## mountain_waif (Jan 10, 2006)

....


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 10, 2006)

As with everything, it is the bad breeders that get the most flack (rightly so) but it is not only the bad breeders that over produce. In the Dobe world you breed a litter to get ONE puppy to show. There is NO way all the pups, show standard or not, go to be shown. I am looking for a top pup at the moment , to show, so I have a really big area to troll through as many, many many puppies are out there. This time, for the first time in my life, I am getting a dog (I admit to low self control when it comes to breeding females, even though both my bitches are spayed!!) I shall not breed the dog, and I shall, in all likelihood, have him neutered too- over here he can still be shown neutered.

As you age your goals and attitudes change.

I still shall continue to campaign against live export of _any_ animal, and for increased regulations about handling and transport of _any_ animal.

If you get the laws changed for all animals Horses will benefit by default and a greater good will have been accomplished than merely trying to help horses. You also bring into the fold people who have no interest in horses at all, but eat meat. If you appeal to their consciences and get them to insist that their meat (Pig, Cattle Chickens, ) is Free Range and guaranteed "Cruelty Free" as many Supermarkets in the UK now do, those people can now continue to eat meat with a clear conscience and have helped horses without even knowing it.

All animals, horses included , have a right to both live and die with dignity.

I do not believe horses have any more right, but they most certainly have as much right.

Like others here I have in the past raised and killed and eaten my own meat.

It was happy and living in perfect conditions up til the moment it died, I have a clear conscience.

I have eaten horse meat, but not my own, nor has any horse I own ever gone for human consumption as they are killed here on the Farm.

I cannot vouchsafe for the animals I have sold, unfortunately, but by campaigning for better conditions, imposable by law, I am again helping to ensure a better future for any horse I sell.

None of my Minis has ever gone (legally) for slaughter as all their passports are stamped "Not for Human Consumption" so they cannot, by law, over here, go into the Human foodchain.


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Jan 10, 2006)

oops


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Jan 10, 2006)

oops double post


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Jan 10, 2006)

mountain_waif said:


> > I see the adorable pups and kittens on posts and I can only be heartsick for their futures and the futures of their offspring. I will not patronize businesses that contribute to this misery either and refuse to spend my hard earned dollars at pet shops that sell animals to just anyone off the street.
> 
> 
> Responsible breeders keep track of the homes that their puppies go to and many offer to take them back if a situation arises where the dog is available for a new home. Please don't lump all breeders in with puppy mills. Many breeders also limit the numbers of litters that they produce even though many have waiting lists for puppies.


Of course "responsible" breeders are not the problem nor did I lump all breeders in with puppy mills. However, putting a couple of registered, or not, dogs together for an example, getting a litter then selling them intact to others who will repeat the cycle is a huge part of the problem in all species. No matter how well some breeders keep track they truly have no control over what happens to that animal once it leaves them. We have breeders in this area who have wait lists for Yorkie pups regardless of quality, health or temperment, but there are no wait lists for Pits and they can hardly be given away. Doesn't mean much to me except that it's mostly a supply and demand issue but I can commend a breeder who has every pup in a good home before the dog's are even bred. At least they are trying in their own way to not add to the problem.

A lot of people poo poo breeders who finish their dogs to the championship level before they even consider breeding. Do people have any clue just how HARD that is to do, especially in a popular dogs like Labs where there are ususally 40-60 or more per class on a slow day? I wouldn't have the resources, time or patience it takes in several lifetimes to go through what others have done to reach it. I recall one saying she was up to $14,000 already and that didn't include her time or travel expense for just one her dogs. Few by comparison are even involved with their chosen breed on any level (ETA) yet they certainly feel qualifed and entitled to breed.




: We already have an overabundance of pets and if everyone quit breeding tomorrow it'd still be a long time before we'd take care of what we've already got.


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## Jenn (Jan 10, 2006)

Every single person who breeds horses is contributing to the problem of overproduction, which results in horses going for slaughter. So be part of the solution rather than part of the problem - don't breed unless you already have a guaranteed buyer lined up for the foal.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Jan 10, 2006)

Jenn said:


> Every single person who breeds horses is contributing to the problem of overproduction, which results in horses going for slaughter. So be part of the solution rather than part of the problem - don't breed unless you already have a guaranteed buyer lined up for the foal.


and even that doesnt solve the problem as a buyer for the foal doesnt mean the foal will have a home for the next 20+ years


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## runamuk (Jan 10, 2006)

ClickMini said:


> Why does everyone think that slaughter is the alternative to homes for all of these unwanted animals??? Which would you prefer...getting an injection and going to sleep? Or being slammed into a feedlot to wait until all the drugs/wormers clear their system, with all kinds of other horses biting, kicking...so scared, confused. I have been to a feedlot, I have rescued horses. I have managed a no-kill animal shelter. I have two PMU babies here. I KNOW WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT HERE. It is NOT the only alternative, a humane death is euthanasia.
> 
> I will not argue the point about other species. I don't agree with the transport and handling of those, either. But let's start with the ones who give each and every one of us daily pleasure and love, *our horses*.


well do you know of 40,000 homes? for possibly some very damaged animals..or very old or even violent.....as for putting them down would be nice but what are you going to do for body disposal? Who is going to pay? Businesses must show an attempted profit or get the IRS up the rear.....so putting down ALL the culls on a big farm might mean 50% so if they are producing 200 a year that is one farm with 100 "pet/auction" quality horses to move....plus this is what we do with dogs and cats and...well seems annually we are adding to the millions not decreasing...so I still do not see that as a truly viable alternative......

I have worked with rescue's and rescue animals for years.....I am a no-kill shelter



: and there are only so many that can be saved......there is one way to fix this problem

STOP BREEDING...put limits on breeding require tight regulations as to just who can breed and make those breeders accountable for the rest of that animals life :new_shocked: harsh...unamerican.....would fix a big portion of the problem


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## shminifancier (Jan 10, 2006)

And some research I have read it is More Like 80,000 horses Per Year,, Each and Every year`! Yes I would like to know just where these people are that will be able to take in that many every year... :no:


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## ClickMini (Jan 10, 2006)

Runamuk we are both on the same page about one thing, to reduce the amount of indiscrimate breeding. As for euthanasia and disposal, I'm sorry I just don't buy it that people can't pay. If you can afford to have a horse you can sure in the heck afford to pay the few hundred $ for euthanasia and disposal. Right now people have an "easy out," ship that horse to the auction and pray that the person who paid that $200 or less is going to be a "good home." Just turn your eyes and walk away. Eliminating that option for people would go a long ways toward responsible and caring ownership in my opinion. The others will just get out of horses/the business.

Ya know what? My vet bills for 2005 were in excess of $15,000 yes you read that right. I would NEVER ship my horses to an auction hoping for the best. They are EXPENSIVE animals to own, the minis are much cheaper of course, but still they are a LUXURY. People who are well off enough to own such a luxury are well enough off to do the right thing by their animals.

I will not let anyone off the hook, sorry. I would not let a few dollars get in the way of doing the right thing for my animal, my friend, the one who has given so much to me. And I would hold others to the same standard.


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## ClickMini (Jan 10, 2006)

Runamuk we are both on the same page about one thing, to reduce the amount of indiscrimate breeding. As for euthanasia and disposal, I'm sorry I just don't buy it that people can't pay. If you can afford to have a horse you can sure in the heck afford to pay the few hundred $ for euthanasia and disposal. Right now people have an "easy out," ship that horse to the auction and pray that the person who paid that $200 or less is going to be a "good home." Just turn your eyes and walk away. Eliminating that option for people would go a long ways toward responsible and caring ownership in my opinion. The others will just get out of horses/the business.

Ya know what? My vet bills for 2005 were in excess of $15,000 yes you read that right. I would NEVER ship my horses to an auction hoping for the best. They are EXPENSIVE animals to own, the minis are much cheaper of course, but still they are a LUXURY. People who are well off enough to own such a luxury are well enough off to do the right thing by their animals.

I will not let anyone off the hook, sorry. I would not let a few dollars get in the way of doing the right thing for my animal, my friend, the one who has given so much to me. And I would hold others to the same standard.


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## runamuk (Jan 10, 2006)

The differnece is you are approaching it as a hobby a luxury a pet. For many this is their lively hood their business and everything about it must be run in a business manner.

OK as for disposal where I am it is relatively easy we can bury them but at some point that would become no longer an option...due to the slaughter industry declining I am hearing all over the country that the renderers who used to come haul can't make any money so that is becoming less of an option. So now you are stuck with cremation or mass burial sites .....the group graves are slowly disappearing......so suddenly you can pay 200 to put your horse down and the only legal option is cremation at upwards of 1000...so now you have a cost of 1200 to off a horse humanely.......that works out to 48 million to dispose of those 40,000 horses.....

As for your 15,000 in vet bills....I would not do that ever......that is my annual income and well my kids come first so the horses do have a limit to what I am willing to spend to save them......plus if horses are insured insurance companies then say when enough is enough.......

in some ways doing away with horse slaughter has affected the horse market.....with the demand down the prices drop and with prices dropping there is no competition at the auctions which often set the prices for local markets...so with lower prices at the auctions you see that fall out into the general market as well.....

before reacting just think about it for a minute......if I can get 1.65 lb at auction from a slaughter buyer then a horse 1000 lb horse is worth 1650 ......however at 35 cents a lb that same 1000 lb horse is only worth 350......so is it better to have the low end of the horse market paying 1650 or 350 ?



ClickMini said:


> Runamuk we are both on the same page about one thing, to reduce the amount of indiscrimate breeding. As for euthanasia and disposal, I'm sorry I just don't buy it that people can't pay. If you can afford to have a horse you can sure in the heck afford to pay the few hundred $ for euthanasia and disposal. Right now people have an "easy out," ship that horse to the auction and pray that the person who paid that $200 or less is going to be a "good home." Just turn your eyes and walk away. Eliminating that option for people would go a long ways toward responsible and caring ownership in my opinion. The others will just get out of horses/the business.
> 
> Ya know what? My vet bills for 2005 were in excess of $15,000 yes you read that right. I would NEVER ship my horses to an auction hoping for the best. They are EXPENSIVE animals to own, the minis are much cheaper of course, but still they are a LUXURY. People who are well off enough to own such a luxury are well enough off to do the right thing by their animals.
> 
> I will not let anyone off the hook, sorry. I would not let a few dollars get in the way of doing the right thing for my animal, my friend, the one who has given so much to me. And I would hold others to the same standard.


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## shminifancier (Jan 10, 2006)

> As for your 15,000 in vet bills....I would not do that ever......that is my annual income and well my kids come first so the horses do have a limit to what I am willing to spend to save them......plus if horses are insured insurance companies then say when enough is enough.......


Yes that is so true there has to be a limit and in no way will that limit be as high as that...have to be realistic here and just how much goes to what, and then there is a cut off point for sure..


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## Horse Hugs (Jan 10, 2006)

Clickmini,

I had a year like that also. Hyperlipemia, rattlesnake bite and major surgery :no:

I think people should only have as many horses as they can afford medical expenses for. Yet, I have heard people on this board say how they had to put down a horse because of some expensive medical cost and then they actually buy another horse the same year. :nono:


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## ClickMini (Jan 11, 2006)

Yes, that is where we will all have to agree to disagree, I will never, ever, ever in this lifetime agree that horse slaughter is necessary or okay. And by the way, that $1.65/lb at auction has never happened in the state of Washington anyway, in the past 15 years that I have lived here. More likely, your very large and fit TB will be safe for sure once it hits the $600 - 700 mark.

When you have eleven horses there is a very good chance that you may have a year like I did. That amount did not come on one horse, or one reason. That is the first year I have ever faced that kind of problem. But you DO have to be prepared for it! I also have my horses seen twice a year by the vet, they get vaccinated, and get their teeth done by a specialist. That is not counting feet trimmed every 4-8 weeks, and other necessary incidentals for them.

Also, as far as disposing of your euthanized horses and all of the "problems" related to it, does that mean that all horses should run thru slaughter or what??? For crying out loud! If you have horses, this is an expense that should be planned for and built into your budget!


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 11, 2006)

There has to be a "common ground" somewhere here. We are all agreed, I think, that in some circumstances humane destruction is necessary. I cannot see what difference it makes what happens to the horse after it is dead, but I do understand that this matters a lot to some people. Those people are free to make their own arrangements and to pay out the exorbitant charges if they wish.

I do agree that the conditions under which horses (and cattle sheep and pigs) are bought for slaughter and transported, kept and finally killed, are totally unacceptable.

With horses, where there are kill buyers competing with people who might give the horse a good home, the feelings are bound to run high, and I admit to having paid more for a horse at auction than I should have done, merely because the opposition was a knacker!!

At one time our local dealer , who was also a "kill buyer" would drop off at my place and my friends, any horses he thought should really have another chance. I've had Connemaras with papers and in foal from the man- that is crazy!!

The obvious answer is to get people to breed less.

Although occasionally Minis will go to kill buyers, they are hardly worth the bother.

I am far more worried about what happens to the over produced, unregistered (and sometimes registered as well) Minis that go through these markets.

Quite frankly a lot would be better off dead!!


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## runamuk (Jan 11, 2006)

ClickMini said:


> Also, as far as disposing of your euthanized horses and all of the "problems" related to it, does that mean that all horses should run thru slaughter or what??? For crying out loud! If you have horses, this is an expense that should be planned for and built into your budget!


OK here is where it gets tough...if I am raising horses as a form of livestock the normal course of events leads to that livestock being disposed of at auction.....standard business practice..in the livestock industry.

You are still in the horse as pet mode...for many many many horses are a business a livestock business......

so back to the original question yes in many ways horse slaughter affects the market it sets the bottom price.


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