# Dog topic... controversial



## shorthorsemom (Oct 8, 2014)

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2014/10/06/girl-recovering-pit-bull-attack-am-i-dead/16806425/

Everyone should read little Emily Ruckle's story and give her a cyber hug. Her arm was ripped off by a pit bull last week. I have been following her story on facebook and her moms pain and suffering of watching her little 8 year old girl trying to recover from one of the most brutal attacks I have ever heard of. Her sister saved her life. This family lives not far from us.

Sorry in advance to all you folks who own or love a pit bull. This breed is not for everyone. I have met some truly great ones... that said... they are not for everyone and if my words and sharing only make someone think twice before they take on the responsibility of owning one.

This topic has touched my life a few times personally. My friend's son almost lost his leg to a pit bull owned by a friend and raised properly from a pup from a loving family. Dog just went off. It was a bad day.

Another friend of mine got one for her son.. obedience raised.. smart owners.. well bred dog raised from a puppy. She took the dog to a friends farm and something set it off and It killed a foal and tore up the foals mom and tore up the owner of the horse (also a friend of mine) The horse owners husband had a heart attack from the stress. It was a bad day.

Little Emily Ruckle only wanted to let a dog out to go to the bathroom, she had been raised doing dog rescue. It was a very bad day.

There was another local attack in Wilmington this week only days after Emily was attacked... a woman and her daughter were attacked by a roaming pit bull. It was a very bad day I haven't heard yet the outcome on the damages. Bless that man that read on youtube that the best way to make a dog release is to take off your belt and wrap around the dogs neck and lift up and put the dog into a choke hold so it will release. It worked on this dog and he saved the woman who was having her arm shaken and torn up.

I have loved dogs all my life and am not an advocate of cursing any one breed of dog.. having owned Dobermans in my past for almost 30 years I am well aware of folks fear of "dangerous dogs". That said... I still say.. many folks are just not aware of the power and damage this breed can do.

There are many breeds of dogs on the dangerous dog list but Emily's story deserves consideration and reading on this forum as awareness and humbleness and if only to bring a tear to your eye when reading about a little girl wakes up and asks "am I in heaven".

Pray for little Emily.

PS... do not turn this into a pit bull bashing thread. It is intended on bringing awareness and education for anyone who might be thinking of owning one.. especially if that person is not familiar with dogs. I have two members of my immediate family that own pit bulls.

I just feel strongly compelled to share little Emily's story. I have owned dogs all my life. This story has been an eye opener. Her mom's facebook postings are so much more graphic than this article. Maria Ruckle... her facebook is open to all. This posting is more about power of dogs and appreciation of life and hoping folks think long and hard about life and how your whole life can change in the blink of an eye.


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## Debby - LB (Oct 8, 2014)

Omg I feel so bad for this little girl and her family. I will say i think certain breeds are more unpredictable and the pit bull is one of them. They were bred to catch and hold and since then they have been crossbred... so many bred strictly for fighting. I do not think they should be owned by just anyone nor be around little children at all.

Reading the story I kind of lost track when I got to the part where they didn't answer their phone, if they were so concerned about disrupting a wedding they should have turned it off. My main concern anytime I'm away is a call from family at home and I answer all, I HATE the practice of selective answering a phone. (It may just be how I use our cell phone since only 4 people have the number and it's for emergencies only)....just really gripes my butt for people to look at the number and not answer.

I will keep Emily and her family in my prayers and hope for some use of her arm. It is so good that she's can't remember the attack, unlike her sister who will be mentally scarred for life as will Emily's father who didn't listen to his conscience and do what needed to be done. It's a sad situation.


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## Sonya (Oct 8, 2014)

So very sad. I've only known one pit bull in my life, it was my cousins and he was a sweetheart. Any dog can attack but the power and drive in this breed is so strong. I was attacked as a child by a dog but was very lucky the dog was old and on a chain and just scratched me up a bit. It was a neighbors Saint Bernard. The dog knew me well but something just went off in its brain, another neighbor came over and started beating the dog with a hoe to get it off me. I was probably about poor Emily's age. Our good friends had a chow, that dog was so mean, I felt bad for them when they had to have him put to sleep from old age but secretly I was relieved. I am not afraid to admit I don't like pit bulls, chows, Rottweilers, dobermans, German Shepards , collies or Saint Bernards.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 8, 2014)

Many years ago when I was considering my first dog I looked into the bull terrier. I just loved the way they looked. My dad's family had owned several and I had heard many of the stories of the dogs' possessiveness of their families and aggressive behavior. The breeder of the bull terrier told me they required a strong master. Since that is not my nature, I decided against that breed.

Is a bull terrier the same as a pit bull??


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## Ryan Johnson (Oct 8, 2014)

Owning a pit bull in Australia has been Illegal since 2008. Like this poor little girl that lost her arm there was so many incidents that directly involved this breed of dog that they were banned in late 2008.

Like Shorthorsemum said the pit bull is not the only breed of dog that can be found to be dangerous around people.

Im certainly not a dog expert but I would bet money on it, that the way in which these dogs have been brought up & trained has a fair bit to do with it.


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## Minimor (Oct 8, 2014)

Such a sad story. I have to wonder why the dog's owner did not want to have to dog in his own home, if he had some idea that the dog was a menace, or if he simply did not want to have a dog any more. If the former then it's too bad that he sent the dog to his son's apartment.

I know that people love their pitbulls, but fact is over the years I have known of several instances like this. A dog expert has told me that the breed is unstable--it is in their breeding, and is something to be aware of--the possibility that the dog may suddenly, without warning, turn on someone. Unfortunately Most of the cases I have known of the dog has gone for a stranger, not for the owner nor owner's family--generally it goes for a stranger that has done nothing to antagonize the dog, but has simply been passing by or is in the general area. Often it is a horse or another animal that pays the price.

I'm not saying they are bad dogs, but they are not for everyone--and owners do need to know what their dog is capable of. No one should assume that their pitbull will never turn this way--because owners have been surprised before, and they will be surprised again. The dogs that turn vicious in the blink of an eye are not all badly training/badly bred, contrary to what many people say or think.


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## lucky seven (Oct 8, 2014)

_My dog is a lab/pit mix, he has issues with people and we know it. We keep him confined and is not allowed to run free in our yard. We don't want anyone hurt but this dog is a loving member of our family and he also adores his doctor. He can't get into the vet office fast enough. We tell people not to try to pet him when he's in our car and if anyone comes to our home he is put in a bedroom with door shut. He's 12 yo._


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 8, 2014)

tried to link something.. it didn't work


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 8, 2014)

Bull terrier is a different breed. I love bullies but will never own one. My friend Mary is a breeder of bullies and said that they are a lot of dog and can often be not tolerant of other dogs. Since I enjoy a large dog family I realized that this breed is not for me.

That is what I ask... folks to self evaluate. I have had many people over the years ask me about a breed of dog they are thinking about owning. So often this breed is so wrong for their family.

I hear " I want a shiba inu for my kids because they look like a fox" Or I want a pit bull or rottie for protection.. or I want a husky because the blue eyes are so pretty.. etc.

This story tells us the bad side of a dog. No matter how it is raised, or how it reacts... it is a breed of dog that can take the arm off of a 8 year old girl in a matter of minutes. I don't ever want to own a dog that can do this kind of damage.

I once owned a min pin that if ticked off could bite the crap out of me. She could not tear the arm off a child. The ability of enormous damage resulting from this breed is off the charts. I can only imagine the resulting doctor bills for life.

I do not critique this family or their choices or answering their phone or not. This mom has spent many years helping dogs and working with rescue dogs. This is a nice family that is in living heck.

My examples I gave on my intro thread are dogs that were not abused... were not rescue dogs with unknown backgrounds. They were raised from pups in loving homes. It baffles me completely what it is that snaps in them.

I have lost two elderly dogs recently and have been surfing the rescue shelters locally. I am shocked by the numbers of pit bull dogs and pit mixes. Several of my favorite rescues have more than 60% pit bulls. It has been very enlightening but also frightening.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 8, 2014)

What gets my goat is how many people don't really know a pitbull from any other bull breed. In some places mastiffs are considered pitbulls as are some smooth coated terriers and I've even seen lab and pointer crosses that are labelled as pitties. I am a big fan of Bullmastiffs, in some towns I could not walk my dog (if I were to own a Bullmastiff, rotti or other such dog there) with out a muzzle. I have known a few pitbulls, all seemed sweet and loving dogs...until they weren't. One was her owners lap dog for the first 3 years of her life, then she started attacking the door knob when people that didn't live with her came in. I don't mean before, I mean after they entered, closed the door behind them and walked away from the door the dog would attack the knob savagely. Her owner thought it was silly and laughed about it. I wondered. About a month later she started charging their horses and biting at them, tore a mares muzzle open... no provocation. Shortly after that she started running down the long driveway barking wildly when anyone passed on a bike, horse or on foot. There finally came a day when she didn't stop before the end of the drive, charged out and bit a bikers calf.. it was deep and stitches were required. The victim was a teen and the parents said, dog gets put down or we go to court. Sad ending but in my mind it was the inevitable outcome of not heeding the early warning signs and things could have been so much worse. People need to see the dog as it is today, not as it was last year or how they want it to be. I read an article recently about 2 pitbulls who attacked a child and the child died. The owners have now been charge with murder (2nd degree I think which means not premeditated) and the dogs are being considered a weapon. I agree with this, if you want to own a breed known to be aggressive or protective, you should be prepared to be responsible for that animals actions.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 9, 2014)

Good one Reignmaker...

I agree many folks don't know what one is. My husbands cousin adopted a dog from a shelter he said was a rottie Labrador mix. It was an adult dog. We went over for a lunch visit with our kids and lo and behold.. they have adopted a pitbull mix. Powerful dog, brindle in color and classic Pit head. I was shocked. My kids were very small then and I asked him to please crate the dog while we visited.

This dog was not friendly, had protective "tude" and eventually made them uncomfortable and nervous enough that they returned the dog to the rescue. They had also adopted a lab that had no manners.

These folks were the type of people that would go to the dog park... take the leash off of two dogs that they just adopted and then be shocked that they had to chase the dogs for 5 city blocks when they ran off. Dog park was not fenced. CLUELESS but very nice folks. Happens all the time. Shelters are full of dogs from very nice folks that are clueless to how to really raise and train a dog and so many people want a macho protective dog and have no clue what that means.

When I remarked to my husband's cousin about the town they were living in having restrictions on pit bulls running loose, he says..."but my dog is a rottie lab cross, the rescue said so". sheesh.


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## Jill (Oct 9, 2014)

It's a breed of dog I would never consider owning. I know there are many sweet and loving pit bulls but I do think it's a breed with the propensity for aggression and the drive to fight. With having shih tzus, tiny horses, and pet goats, I couldn't consider taking on what I think could more likely pose a threat to those four legged members of our family compared to other dog breeds or crosses I think cut out to not of the potential associated with pit bulls. I like having big, protective dogs, but even if it is due to mix understanding on my part, we wouldn't feel safe having a pit bull around our little dogs especially. There are just too many other types of dogs I feel comfortable about and like to opt to take on a pit bull as part of our family.

My heart goes out yo the little girl who was hurt so badly and also to her family!y.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 9, 2014)

> [SIZE=12pt]Breed ****** Attacks doing bodily harm ****** Maimed ****** Deaths[/SIZE]
> 
> 1. Pit bull **********2792 ***********************677 **********263
> 
> ...


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## Jill (Oct 9, 2014)

Those numbers are compelling. There is a huge margin separating #1 from #2 on the list.


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## FurstPlaceMiniatures (Oct 9, 2014)

As the owner of a Rottie mix, I will say he is 'programmed a little different.' Thankfully the other half is coonhound whih pretty much makes him a big ol mush with a big voice. He's dysfunctional, but more of a 'gotta get da thing!' Kind of dysfunctional. More hound like than rott like.

But yes, he is protective. That's what I wanted. I am 22, live alone, and in the middle of nowhere. I wanted something that was loud and push came to shove would defend.

That being said he is also paranoid of plastic bags and tinfoil. Don't think he's this big burly critter!

I myself do well with very dominant horses, so I almost needed a dog with a little oomph. A timid or submissive one my personality would scare.

But no. Put bulls are not for everyone, they are programmed much like my Rooster is. I would say my guy would be unmanageable if he didn't go to work with me a lot. I'm a farmer and he spends 30 hrs a week chasing cows and cats with some structure. He's a heck of a cowdog. By the time he gets home he is DONE with anything high energy and had practiced using his listening ears all day. That's what a pittie needs too.

They aren't city dogs, they aren't family dogs, and they sure aren't everyone dogs. I've always liked my hounds, but for the life stage and career I'm in,, I would say a pittie would be my second choice.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 9, 2014)

My dad's dad came from England. Not sure what kind of bull terriers they have/had there at the turn of the 20th Century. But there were always bulldogs on my dad's farm in early Oklahoma. Three rowdy boys to play with them and a strong master. I've heard the story of one of their dogs attacking a calf and my grandfather running beside the two beating the dog with a baseball bat to make him let go. The story of another who chewed the tires off people's cars who drove into the yard. And the story of me playing in the front yard less than 2 years of age with our bulldog when a cousin came over. How dangerous could a dog be that a toddler was fondling? He walked through the gate and the dog had him by the calf of his leg before my mom could rush out of the house and grab his collar. All the old family photos show "Brownie" or "Brindle" somewhere in the picture.

So, are these family dogs bull terriers or pit bulls?


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 9, 2014)

Sometimes I wonder if it is a result of over breeding as well. Probably why Labradors made the bite list... just because there are so many from being number 1 on the akC list for so many years. I have no idea. just a guess.

I also do believe this... Our dogs from a long time ago were different than now. My observation is this... Folks back when I was a kid typically had a parent at home. We had more room to run too and.. we played outside all day without ending up on a milk carton and we took our dogs out to play too. We had more time for our dogs... They played all day, were part of the busy family schedule and once they settled down at night they were blissfully tired, well socialized, happy mind stimulated dogs. It was ideal. We didn't have computers.

Now we have what I call "latch key dogs" Dogs who have owners that work all day... both parents work... kids go to school. I see dogs that are in a crate on average 14 hours a day from well meaning owners that say "he has more energy than I do"... These owners come home and want to relax. Or they go to a dog park and turn the dog loose and sit there and check messages on their Iphone while the dog self entertains and so often the dog might be squaring off to fight another dog with no intervention from the owner.

The dog that has seen 4 walls or bars all day is ready to wake up and check out the world. The owner is ready to check email... cook supper and run the kids everywhere on earth. Because the dog is hyper and has too much energy from lack of socialization, does it get to run errands all day or go to the soccer games? probably not.

When I had my dobies I came home from work and took them for a very long walk. I went to safe fenced in places and threw a ball. I went to dog obedience classes. Their minds were sane and they listened well and they were great for scaring folks visually when I lived alone...

I have friends who walk their dogs morning and night and tire them out. My dogs get plenty of out time and plenty of walks and plenty of training. At home they lounge and are happy and relaxed and social when folks come to visit. The ones that are wary of strangers may rest in a crate when company visits.

I have multiple dogs, each one with different needs. I have a fenced in yard but that is just the potty.. We put on a leash and go out for nice long walks. We do obedience training. I take my dogs places.

I hear ya furstplaceminis on owning a hound. One showed up here dumped on our farm. He was 8 years old when he came, un neutered, not so nice if you touched his ears and feet. He is now very social, walks nicely on a leash, lets me clean his ears and teeth and do his nails with a belly rub for reward. He gets to go places. I worked very hard on his manners and socialization. The difference in the dog that was thrown away and the dog I have now is night and day. His bark is still so loud it will make your ears bleed, but he does shush on command. He arrived 2 weeks after I told someone I could never live with a hound. funny but true.

I now do not pick breeds of dogs. I pick the dog. I pick a dog that suits our family. It does not matter the breed, I pick dogs that I know I can handle and that will be a good fit for our lifestyle. I know I am not a strong enough personality for a rottie or pit. I do know there are other breeds I feel connected with.. I love mixed breeds too. The right mix dog can be protective, well behaved and now that the akc allows mixed breeds to compete in obedience, the sky is the limit on choices.

What I wanted to bring up with this thread is for folks to think long and hard about the commitment of having a dog and think carefully on choosing a breed. Most horse folks are better at dogs than other folks. When I taught classes I could pick out the horse handlers in about 5 seconds of watching them handle their dogs.

If this thread just makes folks think twice about their decisions and choice of breeds, then I am happy with it. I would love to see less pit bulls in the rescue associations. The fact that there are so many is in my opinion proof that there are many families out there that cannot handle them. It is so heartbreaking to go to a shelter and look at the dogs turned in.

cheers folks.

Marsha... I LOVE those old photos. awesome. Thank you for sharing!

PS. Petey of the little rascals was a pit bull and he was well loved. I bet he was nice and tired at the end of a day from playing all day outside. Or. genetically he was a totally different dog all together than the pit bull of today.

cheers.


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## susanne (Oct 9, 2014)

In the early 1900s, pit bulls were referred to as "babysitter" dogs -- parents were said to feel comfortable leaving their children out in the yard with them, certain that their child would not wander off or be abducted. Selective breeding is a double-edged sword. It can strengthen instinctive tendencies for good and for bad. I believe this is what happened with the pit bulls -- that protective loyalty has been perverted by sick human beings.

I have several family members who adore their pitbulls and swear they are not the least bit aggressive. Even if I were to believe this to be true, I would never allow one of them near any of my animals. Things can go wrong with any breed of dog (my sister's Maltese -- a very loving, gentle lap dog -- attacked our rooster), but pitbulls are equipped with jaws that are lethal weapons.

I'm wary of breed-specific legislation, as I do feel many problems are due to individuals rather than a breed as a whole, but there are commonalities that we cannot ignore, and since children and small animals depend upon us for protection, we must constantly be vigilant.


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## Ashley (Oct 9, 2014)

I once knew a sweet pit. And then I watched her corner a grown man, attack my boxer out of the blue and attack a cat. She lives with two small kids and feel it's only a matter of time.


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## chandab (Oct 9, 2014)

Marsha, the dog in the bottom picture sure looks pit, but I haven't seen enough of them to absolutely certain.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 9, 2014)

chandab said:


> Marsha, the dog in the bottom picture sure looks pit, but I haven't seen enough of them to absolutely certain.


I'm not sure anyone in those days knew about "pit bulls". And, unfortunately, there is no one left alive for me to ask.

So many old advertising mascots were bulldogs. It always meant something that was strong and wouldn't let go. So, there must be an old, established traditional knowledge of bulldogs.


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## bevann (Oct 10, 2014)

I'm not a big Pit Bull fan due to the nature of those very powerful jaws.I do know from experience that any individual dog can be aggressive.I have 2 Pembroke Welsh Corgis (14 yr old mom &12 yr old daughter)& 1 5 yr old rescue German Shepherd.I bred German Shepherds(had the same line for 42 yrs)and bred Corgis&have had them since 1972.I NEVER had an aggressive German Shepherd-they were protective, but knew who to trust.1 was sold to a DE State trooper and he would bring him back to visit and play with my small children.Put him in the car&he was ON.IMO bad breeding has ruined today's German Shepherd.They are nervous and unpredictable.I cringe when I see them at shows.My rescue Shepherd has a very high prey drive and he is supervised around the Corgis.My 12 yr old Corgi would be trouble if she were a big dog.She is very food aggressive and has gone on attack mode against her mother several times where food was involved.They are also strongly supervised.As said previously many people pick the wrong dog for their family.In my area the shelters are over run with Pits and Pit mixes.I have a friend who is animal control officer and she says many Pits are being bred for exchange for drugs.Some of these people are also on public assistance.Our tax dollars at work


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 10, 2014)

Where I live, the local Animal Control and Animal Humane are FULL of pits and pit crosses. I have encountered some that seemed very friendly and outgoing--but I would never choose to adopt one or allow one to be around my other animals. There are simply too many horror stories, too often. A lady walking her Chi on a leash in Santa Fe; two pits leap a fence and attack both, killing the Chi. An older lady taking a walk in T or C, attacked and killed by pits...these two stories come to mind from within my state in just the past year or two. Like others, I enjoy having other dogs, usually some 'tinies'...and I don't feel a pit could ever be fully trusted around them, OR my little horses. There are simply too many reported stories of unwarranted unexpected attacks by this breed or cross, too often by dogs that have always seemed 'just fine'. I am NOT willing to 'hope for the best', take such a gamble. The story of the little girl is sad beyond description....


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 10, 2014)

https://www.facebook.com/pitbullapocalypse

Here is an interesting pitbull facebook site dedicated to providing information, stories and stats. on this breed of dog. I admit I was shocked by the information and how much deeper the problem is than I realized.

Little Emily in the original story I posted is receiving nerve grafts in her arm today. She has been under anesthesia twice today. She has a long way to go. I read her moms facebook daily. Everybody should. It is a lesson in bravery and humbleness and how precious life is. That little 8 year old girl has gone through so much.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 11, 2014)

Just checking the local news online and saw this article:

http://www.news9.com/story/26759384/dogs-attack-animal-control-officers-during-okc-dog-bite-investigation

That comment made here about them being bred for drug money gave me something to think about. Many of the people around here who have pit bulls are on welfare.


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## bevann (Oct 12, 2014)

In DE my friend who is in animal control said she would like to see a law passed that if a person is on welfare or any kind of public assistance they should be prohibited from owning animals or at least limit the kind and only be permitted spayed or neutered animals.If taxpayers have to provide for them why should we subsidize their drug money efforts in breeding dogs.I feel sorry for the Pits_I'm sure many are ok,just stupid irresponsible owners.


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## Minimor (Oct 12, 2014)

So we assume that welfare recipients are all drug dealers, users and/or cooks?


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## Ryan Johnson (Oct 12, 2014)

Wow I cant believe Labs and boxers made that list.

We have owned Boxers and Rottweilers over the years. Rottweilers I would be definitely wary of. Boxers I have never seen one with an aggressive streak ever.


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## bevann (Oct 12, 2014)

I DID NOT SAY that all people on welfare are breeding Pits.I know that for many people on welfare or public assistance an animal may be a great source of companionship especially older folks.It is very difficult for my friend who is an animal control officer(very compassionate person)to see what many of these animals go through due to careless breeding practices and have lack of care.I may have worded things poorly or there is always someone on here ready to fight.For those who know me well you know that I am most always about the care of the animal.IMO if you can't care properly for something living then don't have it.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 12, 2014)

Ryan, while I agree with you to a point I have to say, one of the most aggressive dogs I know is a boxer named Hemi. He belongs to my hay supplier and he would happily tear chunks from anyone who comes in the yard until his owner talks to him. If you roll down your window to talk to him (or even make eye contact with the window closed) he will lunge at the window. He is a _*very*_ scary dog, the exception (there always seems to be one) to the rule since most boxers are not aggressive unless they are really provoked.


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## susanne (Oct 12, 2014)

Having been on the board of directors for a no-kill cat and dog shelter in the Portland area, I can assure you "careless breeding practices and have lack of care" (sic) are not practices limited to or primarily found with the poor. The people who stuffed 3 kittens into a taped airproof container and left them at the dump on a hot summer day were from one of the area's wealthiest suburbs. The man who promised his parents he would find a home for their beloved dog, then asked the vet to euthanize him was a business leader in the community. The young woman to whom I gave a kitten years ago for her son, who then abandoned it when they moved, sayin it was "only an animal" was a very successful advertising salesperson (who I mistakenly trusted). Look at what goes on amongst certain breeders and exhibitors of miniature horses. Ginger in the anus to make the horse look "spirited." Breeding every mare every year despite a bad market and overpopultion. And so it goes

So denying poor people their constitutional rights will help prevent mistreatment of animals? HOW?


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## Ryan Johnson (Oct 13, 2014)

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^"OMG - Ginger in the Anus to make the horse look spirited" ???^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Please tell me they have since been banned from owning an animal of any kind ?

I have had to read that 4 times and borrow someones glasses just to make sure my eyes were not failing me.


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## susanne (Oct 13, 2014)

.
It is horrifying, but true. I would like to think that nobody could get away with it these days, but I'm not holding my breath.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 13, 2014)

The only dog I ever knew of personally to kill was a chow. It was a family pet, and killed the small daughter. I have not liked chows since then.

I do not believe in putting regulations on welfare folks about animals. I can see the point, however. Why should tax dollars support pets? Or a breeding business? Why should welfare folks get their animals neutered for free when we have to pay? There isn't any easy answer. The central government certainly shouldn't be in on it. Let local communities handle it. Our vets have a fund that people can contribute to for helping with spaying/neutering. Or if I know someone personally who needs help I can contribute that way.


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## Riverrose28 (Oct 13, 2014)

Sorry Ryan, first time I witnessed this awful act I was at an auction. Needless to say I was mortified and it took several minutes to come to the realization of what I was seeing.

I have english bulldogs, love them to pieces but can't trust them with dogs that are not from their pack. They hate my daughters corgis and will try to fight with them when ever they get near, so they must be separated at all times. They love, love kids and babies but sometimes will get soo wiggly and happy that they forget they weigh more then little tykes. From their history I think they were at one time very aggressive but thast has been bred out and a better disposition bred in. I thought that the pitbulls were the product of breeding english bulldogs and staffordshire terriors to produce a dog with powerful jaws and substanced of body, please correct me if I'm wrong. I used to groom dogs and never had a problem with this breed, but was attacked by a rottie, thank goodness it had a muzzle on as it was so powerful it slammed me into the wall. One of my friends bought a shepherd and when it matured she came home to find it had mauled her sheltie to death. When I was living in the city, lady had a standard poodle it got off leash and attacked and killed her neighbors maltese. If it has teeth it can bite, but I do agree that this breed is one of the worst.


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## Sonya (Oct 13, 2014)

I don't think owning an animal is a constitutional right. I do agree if you can't afford to feed yourself you probably should not own animals. Of course I feel the same way about having children but that's another topic.


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## Jill (Oct 13, 2014)

Sonya, I could not agree more!

I do think if you are receiving taxpayer funded government assistance for your own food and shelter needs, then you probably should forfeit some luxuries. Luxuries are easily contrasted to constitional rights when those luxuries require dollars and cents that a person could otherwise use to provide food and shelter for themselves. Remember, the government cannot give to anyone something that it does not first take from someone else.

If you can't afford to feed and house yourself, you really don't need to be having children or pets.


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## susanne (Oct 13, 2014)

I assume this would apply to corporate welfare as well.

I'm in favor of limiting breeding, but it should not be just the poor who are restricted. I would be in support of breeds and registries (with all animals) approving breeding stock as they do in Europe and limiting registration to approved stock. THAT would cut back on puppy and foal mills, but talk about something that would get people up in arms!


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## Jill (Oct 13, 2014)

susanne said:


> I assume this would apply to corporate welfare as well.


I'm not very familiar with corporate welfare, and can only imagine the microscopic number of corporations (on welfare?) that could conceivably be active in anything related to pit bull dogs. No clue of the tie in.


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## Ashley (Oct 14, 2014)

The boxer I used to own was awesome with her family and kids. In fact my daughter bit her ear once and she did nothing. At the same time I seen her dart to the road after somebody riding their bike snarling away. Never went on the road but she was always very protective of her family and I wouldn't put it past her to defend them if necessary.

At the same time, I don't feel just because a person needs assistance that they shouldn't be allowed to have a pet. Pets have been known to be beneficial to many mental health disorders; which many people have. I think if we stripped people of their pets we would be paying out more for mental health care.


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## Ryan Johnson (Oct 14, 2014)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> Ryan, while I agree with you to a point I have to say, one of the most aggressive dogs I know is a boxer named Hemi. He belongs to my hay supplier and he would happily tear chunks from anyone who comes in the yard until his owner talks to him. If you roll down your window to talk to him (or even make eye contact with the window closed) he will lunge at the window. He is a _*very*_ scary dog, the exception (there always seems to be one) to the rule since most boxers are not aggressive unless they are really provoked.


Wow had No idea that a boxer could be like that. My Boxer Laila has the most scary bark but then when she sees you she wags her tail and is a dead giveaway shes not a guard dog in the least.

I have to agree with Ashley, I have known elderly people and know people in general that are not very well off. Not being able to do alot of extra things outside daily living because they just couldnt afford it. They certainly make sure their animals are fed and attended to as they should be. Sometimes a pet is all they have and you can truly see the love they have for each other.

On the other hand I have seen pets mistreated by some of the wealthiest people around, including horses.

As long as an animal can be cared for and loved by their owner, I dont think it really matters how much $$ they have as long as they can afford to provide for their pets and can continue to do so.

If you agree to take on the responsibility of an animal then you should be prepared to care for it for the rest of its life, circumstances permitting of course.

Do you believe that certain breeds of dogs are just trouble and should be avoided ?? or do you think that it rests on their upbringing and how they are trained and handled ?


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## FurstPlaceMiniatures (Oct 14, 2014)

My great aunt is a very sweet all be it a but 'confused' elderly lady who loves animals. She had a pit bull wander into her backyard and take up shop. She eventually let him in her house. She calls him a 'stafford shire bull' but there is zero debate he is full on red nose pit.

I will say some higher power must have sent her this dog. He has done nothing but good for her, she walks him daily, he protects her house (it was broken into multiple times, since this dog not once), and he has made her make friends in the community. He is good with her cats and bird, and has really lifted her spirit. All she posts about on Facebook is her dog, and he keeps her active. He seems to know she is his person and he needs to be careful with her.

However it does concern me he is a pit. And a rescue with an unknown background at that. Who knows of and when this dog will hurt her. He's an 80lb burly looking red nose and she is a tiny sweet old lady. It's funny as heck to see the pictures of them. You can just see so much love in his eyes for her. I don't think this is the breed for her. But, 'Pup' does seem to be the dog....


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## Riverrose28 (Oct 15, 2014)

I certainly hope no one here ever experiences hard times. You can be working and well off one day with savings and broke in no time if you lose your job and or your health. So then you are saying since these people are now living on a limited income after returning to work that they should give up their beloved pets, I think not. WE all just went through a horrable recession, I know of many that are just now recovering the past year or so, one of my daughters still is struggling, (I have her pets in my care). I was a groomer and vet assistant for over 30 years before retiring, we had many clients that were elderly, alone, or low income. We always worked with them to make payments, some that were widowed or really bad off would bring us cookies or knit neck scarves or little pins and trees at Christmas. Some never paid at all. We also had many disabled clients that couldn't walk and I would bring their pets in for them, or drive to their home to deliver their pet. Some paople only have their pet for company and even then are still lonely. I'm sad to say those days are gone, the kindly neighborhood vet is a thing of the past. I must pay up front to have a vet look at one of mine and I've been going to them since I retired in 2001. I've been using my equine vet since 1977, they used to give senior discounts multi horse discounts, etc., also let you make payments, but since so many bad apples didn't pay at all, now you must pay when services are rendered. I can understand how somwone going through a rough patch wouldn't be able to properly provide vetrinary care. Then I've seen those that would feed their pets before themselves. We should try to be alittle more understanding and less judgemental of those less fortunate then us. My computer wont's let me use the smily faces so no smily with big girl panties.


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## Minimor (Oct 15, 2014)

Right on, Riverrose!!!


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## Ryan Johnson (Oct 15, 2014)

^^^^^^^ Like - Riverrose ^^^^^^ Very True and very well said.






To come into hard times is terrible enough but then to have to give up your animals would be horrendous. I hope that never happens to any of us.......


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 15, 2014)

Very well said Riverrose! Financial fortunes for many of us can be up and down then (hopefully ) up again, dogs don't care if you are rich or poor, they just love you. In our town there is a homeless man who has a dog. Although I don't know it for a fact I was told the dog was a stray and the man felt they had that in common. He has nothing, but he still has a need for love. He saves something from his soup kitchen meals to give the dog every day, a generous but anonymous person has been kind enough to drop of a bag of dog food now and again and the dog never looks starved but I am sure he gets no vet care. If they didn't have each other the dog would be in a cell in the pound for its entire life. It would have all its shots, regular meals and its health needs dealt with promptly but it would have no one to love or be loved by. The man would have one less reason to see life as a good thing and be deprived of that connection if he didn't have that dog. I for one would not claim that the vet care was more valuable to the dog nor that the man should give him up.


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## Sonya (Oct 16, 2014)

I really don't care if I sound heartless, it's personal responsibility! If you can't afford to feed yourself you should not have animals! I'm so sick of this entitlement attitude that this country has. My boat keeps me from being depressed, therefore if I lose my job and can no longer afford it and need help feeding myself, you all better be on board for paying for my groceries as well as gas for my boat, my boat payment, etc...after all I've been paying taxes for 30 years, I am entitled to have that boat! It's my constitutional right!

I can remember a few years ago there was a healthcare thread here on the porch...someone was complaining how they should have free healthcare because they couldn't afford to pay the premium, all the while having 12+ horses in their yard. Yes I should pay your healthcare because you choose to have a dozen horses and don't take responsibility for yourself or your family..BS!

At the grocery store yesterday I watched a man buy $130 worth of junk....hot pockets, pizza rolls, Fritos, cheese puffs, Oreos, ice cream everything that came out of his cart was pure processed junk, then I and other taxpayers paid for it with that bridge card he carried.

If I sound bitter it's because I am! Just because you can have a dog doesn't mean you should! If you can't afford to feed yourself you shouldn't be bringing animals (or children) into the equation.

I am all for helping someone who is down on their luck, programs in this country are suppose to be a helping hand not a way of life!

Ending my rant!


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 16, 2014)

I like most dogs better than most people outside of my inner circle of close friends.

Dogs love us more than themselves.

When you are having a crappy day, only your dog loves you just for being you. They don't care if you are fat or pretty or if your hair needs coloring. They live to please and love.

My vet used to let a elderly client with limited income pay her vet bill in tomatoes from her garden. She would line them up on the counter and he would tell her that she grew the best tomatoes he ever tasted. It warmed my heart to see him mark her bill as paid and take those tomatoes back to his office.

She was not his only charity client.

That said... there are many cases where the dog is not doing well in the situation they find themselves in... and with that I agree it is not a right for everyone to have a dog. My dog Bonnie lived with an elderly man. Whoever gave a puppy to an older man for a companion should have been watching to be sure she was cared for properly. When he went into a nursing home... and Bonnie was left alone in the house with neighbors letting her out... I decided to bring her home with me. The mans son signed her papers over to me. What I got was a pure bred Tibetan spaniel. She was 6 years old... She was not spayed, she had a false pregnancy, ear infection, bladder infection and bladder stones. She was not housebroken or crate trained and she barfed for car rides.

Her situation was sad. She was his company, but he did a bad job caring for her. She would pee and poop in this guys bed because he would not get up to let her out.

That was quite a few years ago.. she is now 12 years old. She was neutered, she has clean ears, is well groomed, housebroken and has the run of my house. Her former owner and his son still tick me off to think of it... They did not have the dogs best interest at heart.

cheers.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 16, 2014)

Yup, each situation is unique and should be judged as such. Should this homeless man be given a puppy? I would say no, nor should he be left with an intact female but his dog was a street dog just like he is homeless and they seem to offer each other so much I for one do not begrudge him his friend. I am not sure if the same good Samaritan who supplies the dog food also helps in other ways or not. It would be nice if that were so but I can't say one way or the other. Life IMO is complicated and it seems easier for most of us to judge what we see is wrong rather than offer to help keep it right. But then I am a Canadian who has grown up in a country that has always (in my lifetime) had free health care and welfare for those who need it. I see many problems with the system and for sure am frustrated by those who get on the bus for a 'free ride' but I'm still very grateful to live where getting sick when you are out of work won't cost you everything you have.


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## Ashley (Oct 16, 2014)

Again, coming from the mental health world I can tell you it would be far more expensive if we took away their pets then letting them keep them. When I say far more expensive, that expense comes in several different aspects. There is a reason they in some prisons, allow the prisoners to train dogs. There is logic behind it. How about taking some of that anger and turn it into education and eye opening.


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## Ashley (Oct 16, 2014)

additionally how do you really know who really needs a helping hand and who doesnt? What they buy for food, have for pets, have for clothes doesnt tell you anything other than the JUDGEMENT you create when you make the decision.


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## Sonya (Oct 16, 2014)

Ashley when I see the same women use her bridge card every week at the local store and then climb into her brand new escalade while talking on her brand new iPhone, you can bet I'm going to judge her! After all she is using mine and others money to purchase her food and apparently her fancy car, I've earned the right to judge her. The abuse of welfare and other programs is appalling. Most people who are on these programs for years and even decades are abusing it and they know how to work the system. Therefore we aren't helping them we are just enabling them.


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