# Curious what this group thinks about sexual orientation



## nootka (Sep 3, 2006)

Hi,

I know we've talked a lot about this at other times, but there are new people here, and I know we are all changing and learning and growing. Thought I would bring it up again...I don't want anyone to be upset or fight or get their feelings hurt, but would love to have a nice discussion something along the lines of the "faith" discussion recently as in we can all get along/disagree anyway.

Much of my life I have known and loved people who are gay, though at times within those relationships I did not know they were, nor would it have mattered to me (for example, I had an uncle who was, but it didn't matter to me, who was small and had little concept though I heard the talk behind his back by family members and the like). I have had friends who were, and they either were open about it or I guessed about it and often I was right as in we had "the talk" later. I would not say it is particularly common within my experience or life, though it might seem so as I'm focusing on it right now.

My point is that it does not matter to me what gender a person likes to sleep with. UNLESS I were to be interested in that person, why would it? Why could I not work for a man who liked other men opposed to women, for example? The thing is, I could, because it's merely a working relationship and sexual orientation has NOTHING to do with it.

And why does it matter about marriage? If a couple wants to commit to each other and be married, then why can't we let them? It isn't like they're suddenly going to be able to make babies together, but if they want to adopt, again, why stop them if they are loving and stable and approved as any other couple would be? What threat is this to those with more traditional or "accepted" lifestyles? I feel no threat from it and wish our governments would STOP wasting their time, our money and their attention on this issue.

I have to feel that if the general perception of same sex relationships were changed, that some of the pain and emotional stress that comes with the territory would be lessened, or maybe even a lot. I can't say I've walked in thier shoes, but I've tried to understand, and I feel badly that someone would be made to feel the way some have been, even killed or injured for this "choice" which is not necessarily a choice at all.

With as little as we know and understand about the human brain, is it not possible that there is some connection or undetected hormone that could cause this? Not that it's an illness but rather just a difference such as brown eyes or blue, white skin or black, tall or short? Why can't it be that harmless?

Curious because there is a wide range of people and lifestyles here, and as well there are some well-informed also loving and persuasive people here.

Thanks for joining in...looking forward to the discussion.

Liz


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## Roxy's Run (Sep 3, 2006)

Interesting topic.




: I really couldn't care less about one's "sexual preference." As long as the person or persons are nice, honest, and friendly, and don't cause harm to anyone or anything, I don't care what goes on "behind closed doors." As an example, when the woman I work with told me that her now ex-husband was taking steps for a full fledged sex change, I had no reaction. I just said ok. She was shocked at my non-chalant response. I absolutely adore her ex-husband. He did go through the surgery and is now legally a woman and re-married to a full fledged man. She(he) is such a fun, nice, honest person that I don't care that he changed his sex. She (he) moved out to Missouri and tell you the truth, I miss her and her new husband. Both are just great people. The woman who I work with has accepted her ex-husband's change and they are the best of friends. Something that a lot of people cannot get a grip on. But I, like my co-worker, don't have a problem with it. After all, there is so much more to a person than just their "preference" or genitalia.

Linda

Roxy's Run Miniatures/Renditions


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## Crabby-Chicken (Sep 4, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt] I feel that sexual preference is personal and as long as no one gets hurt, it is none of my business. AND everyone has the same and equal chance at being happy with who they please. I think that people that catergorize homosexuals as different or not worthy of equal rights, or common courtesy, are not fair in any way. And some day down the line, saying people are different in anyway will again be classified as discrimination.[/SIZE]

Sorry to go on about it. I have lots of good friends that are gay and it is hurtful to see what they have to go through just to try and live their lives. Everyone is the same.


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## Marty (Sep 4, 2006)

I figure that I'm not the judge of anyone on this earth.

Live and let live because life is way too short to be sticking my nose in where it doesn't belong and that goes for gay or straight.

I could care less who is bedding down who unless it affects me, my family, and my year end taxes.


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## Shari (Sep 4, 2006)

Also long as no one forces their views on me, I do not care, as it is none of my business.

Was watching a Discovery or was it Natonal geo on this subject?? think it was last month? Anyway...... they are finding that in the area if the human brain that makes us male or female...has not developed correctly in many gay people....or should say the ones they did research on.

Have know a few gay people...so I do not care what color, religion or what ever a person is....as long as they are kind and have a good heart.


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## Miniv (Sep 4, 2006)

The previous posts from Crabby Chicken, Linda, and Marty pretty much sum it up for me as well.......

Larry and I have a number of homosexual friends (and relatives for that matter) who we care about. None of them push their life-style or views on us, nor do we push our's on them. We just care about eachother......and that's all that matters to us.

MA


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## REO (Sep 4, 2006)

People are people.

Happiness is happiness.

Love is love.




:


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## nootka (Sep 4, 2006)

:aktion033:

Glad to see so many like-minded people. I also feel there is so much more to a person than their sexual preferences, and to close the door because you "think something" about someone or know something that you don't find you agree with is missing out.

Not saying we need to seek out a particular type of person, etc., just saying take them at face value and the ONLY time orientation matters is if you are planning a romantic involvement. Beyond that, it's really noone's business.

Like Kim mentioned, it's heartbreaking to see some of the unnecessary difficulty and discrimination that happens for this and other reasons, when there is so much in life we need to focus on that really matters.

Liz


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## bobby dazzler (Sep 4, 2006)

Hi. Was watching 60 minutes last night and they wasted 10 minutes talking about studies that they - in the US, SOrry guys - had conducted about homosexuals and what made them this way etc etc. It doesnt matter why it happens. Nobody chooses at birth to be homosexual - as it is obviously a harder road to follow, from where I see it - i.e, the constant prejudice, snide comments, having to justify what is basically nobody's business etc etc. The people doing this study should have spend the money on trying to cure cancer - now that would have been money well spent. By the way, from the research conducted, my 1st born son had a 2 per cent chance being gay, my younger sons have an increased chance of being gay because they have older brothers (older sisters apparently make no difference) and if they are right handed it increases the risk - jeepers, my fourth born son may end up being homosexual - WHO CARES - I would still love him to death. he would still be my baby and I wouldnt give a rat's bum about anybody else. Sorry for ranting, oh and if you didint guess it, I am entirely straight, have no real close friends who are gay but just feel strongly that somebody could be persecuted because of their sexual orientation. Now, start a thread on what I think about pedophiles or rapists, murderers etc and that would be a different story. Cheers, Kerrie


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 4, 2006)

"an it do no harm......."

beyond that it is none of yours, mine, the governments, anybodies business whatsoever.

For goodness sakes do they have nothing better to worry about??

They would be far better to be trying to work out what makes a paedophile a paedophile, wouldn't they??

This is yours and my money they are spending on this nonsense, by the way!!


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2006)

I think in this world, people are lucky to find true love regardless. I do not understand those who want to keep people from same sex unions. It might not be right for ME, but it is what's right for some other people. I think people should have the right to do what makes them happy and that includes being able to marry who ever they want. I can't stand when people bring religion into the equation to basically try and validate their own predjudice against gays. Seeing the hardships gay people endure because of how some other people treat them, I will not ever believe they choose to be gay anymore than I choose to be straight.


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## Fullmoon (Sep 4, 2006)

I'ts their life. They don't try to tell me how to live mine, I'll not try to tell them how to live theirs.

My husband is a truck driver and some men were grumbling in the break room about a driver that had a sex change and was now allowed to take a shower in the women's rest room. They work for a big company and their wives are allowed to go with them if they want so they take showers at the terminals. Anyway the drivers didn't want "her" in there with their wives. I'm so proud of my husband, he said "I really doubt if it was this persons goal in life to go all through school being made fun of, going through the physical and emotional pain of getting a sex change just to be able to look at fat women in a locker room"! :aktion033:


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## Feather1414 (Sep 4, 2006)

Personally I don't mind either way.

One of my best friends has announced herself as a lesbian. Could I care any less? Probably not. She is my friend. End of story.

I think it's beyond ridiculous for anyone to tell anyone who they can and cannot like.

I say it's not hurting me, so who cares. If it's hurting the homophobes out there, well then there are therapists for that :lol:


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## Pandora (Sep 4, 2006)

I don't get what the bid deal is about letting gays marry. Marriage is nothing more than a contract between 2 people. I say the homophobes should get over it. They preach the bible but yet treat others horrible..what hypocrites :no:


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Sep 4, 2006)

I was just having this conversation with some friends a couple of weeks ago. I find it amusing and sad at the same time that people say as long as they arent looking at me or hitting on me.. well come on now first off a gay or lesbian does have some self control and really lets be honest. Not every heterosexual man walks by me and feels the need to be with me.. why on earth would every lesbian want me LOL

Personally I could care less what is done behind closed doors. Some like fat people, some like skinny some like different races, some are into fetishes, some are swingers and yes.. these are our teachers, neighbors, girl scout leaders boy scout leaders... whatever.. it isnt any of my business. There is no "normal" when it comes to sex there are so many different things.

Sexuality is such a small part of who we are as human beings and really my children and myself dont care. We have friends who are gay and lesbian they have friends with 2 moms or 2 dads and perfectly well adjusted kids. They have no issue seeing these friends hug and kiss or show affection.

Seems to me there are much bigger issues in our world today that we could and should be focusing on.


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## Matt73 (Sep 4, 2006)

:aktion033: Very cool to see so many people on here that are so open, intelligent, and respectful. I am gay have been "out" for over ten years (I'm 32 now). I have had a very positive experience with family and friends; I've been so fortunate to have wonderful people in my life. Also, I grew up in Toronto which is very gay friendly and one of the first places to legalize gay marriage. I don't have any time for ignorant people that "don't understand homosexuality"...what's to understand? It just is, move on! I'm now living in a small town and there was someone that wrote in to the local paper about gay marriage. She said that she doesn't necessarily agree with homosexuality or gay marriage but that who is she to give a #$%^? It doesn't affect her in any way. I really respected that. Why do some people get so fired up about stuff that doesn't affect them? Hmmmm. I say it's fear. Fear of what, I'm not sure.


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## KanoasDestiny (Sep 4, 2006)

I've always told everyone that if my husband ever leaves me for someone else, I'd rather have it a man than another woman.



: I have had friends that were gay or lesbian and it makes absolutely no difference to me. It's their life, their choice, their relationship...who am I to tell them it's wrong or right? I love them as the human being that they are, not the people they date. (Some of my firends would have been better off with other women rather than some of their boyfriends.) We're only on earth for a short time, I fully believe that we should spend that time, living to the fullest and being who we are regardless of what others think.

I've had several women hit on me, and I never feel offended by it. If anything, I take it as a compliment because someone was interested in me. What an ego booster!!! :bgrin

Edited to add...I think that to a certain degree (and I know that the people who are strictly against homosexuality will disagree with this) that EVERYONE has some sort of attraction to the same sex. That's why we as women can look at another woman and say "Wow, she's so pretty". There is "something" we find appealing about her, in order to say that. Same thing can be said for not thinking someone is attractive...there's nothing to attract us to that person. It may not be sexual, but it is attraction. Does that make sense?


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## Hosscrazy (Sep 4, 2006)

I absolutely agree that we do not choose our sexual orientation.

The closest person in my life is my brother, who is 14 months older than me, and he is gay. Growing up, we both knew he was "different", though we did not know the term "homosexual" as kids. We just knew he wasn't the same as the other kids. He fought so hard to be straight - in high school he even had a girlfriend. But he could not keep the fight going - inside, he realized he was gay. I cannot say that at any point in my life did I "choose" to be straight. Likewise, I do not believe my brother "chose" to be gay. It took a while, but he finally came to terms with it and he learned to accept himself for who he is.

I can also say that my brother not only is very successful in his career, but tomorrow is his anniversary of having been with his life partner for 14 years. And I am very, very proud of him and the life he has built with his partner.



:

Liz R.


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## Feather1414 (Sep 4, 2006)

KanoasDestiny said:


> Edited to add...I think that to a certain degree (and I know that the people who are strictly against homosexuality will disagree with this) that EVERYONE has some sort of attraction to the same sex. That's why we as women can look at another woman and say "Wow, she's so pretty". There is "something" we find appealing about her, in order to say that. Same thing can be said for not thinking someone is attractive...there's nothing to attract us to that person. It may not be sexual, but it is attraction. Does that make sense?



I agree with that statement completly.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Sep 4, 2006)

KanoasDestiny said:


> I've had several women hit on me, and I never feel offended by it. If anything, I take it as a compliment because someone was interested in me. What an ego booster!!! :bgrin


LOL I agree with this as well these days anyone finding me attractive is a rareity so yes I surely would take it as a compliment


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## woodnldy (Sep 4, 2006)

"And it harm no others," to me that says it all. I have worked with several that were admittedly gay and I had no problems at all. Then I have been around several others that were and they were so openly, mouthy ,and foul that it made misery for everyone working near . It was like they were trying to pick a fight or something. That behavior is what has caused much of the problems. What goes on in your bedrooms is your own personal bussiness so why does it have to be made national T V coverage prime time even? That bugs me. I am not completely comfortable with watching a Hetero couple doing deep throat :new_shocked: much less two guys or two gals.




: Marriage was instituted for the protection and raising of the children and commitments can be made as much without marrage as with. Many People have tried to say it is a religious thing but the commitment was there way back before our organized, religions, became recognized as such



: .I will hush


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## nootka (Sep 4, 2006)

KanoasDestiny, yes, there is attraction that exists within the same gender and yet, does it make us gay? I doubt it, but the point is that we are each of us different and many variations of what is "right" for each of us.

I've never been offended by compliments or "hits" from someone the same gender. I've even flirted around some with those much like I would with a male friend, or talked about "girls" or "guys" with both. It depends on how comfortable they are with it, and what situation we're in.

My stepsister passed away in Sept. 1991 from AIDS. She was transgendered and lived a long life of difficulty. One of the men she encountered happened to have the virus (which he got from previous IV needle use, not from his orientation, which was straight). Lori was a one of a kind person, had a tremendous capacity for understanding of all life, and was taken far too soon. Her death came at a time when AIDS was still very reviled for its rampantness among a certain "type" of people, but in reality, her story could have happened to any female anywhere. It just so happens she was born male but needed to live as a female to feel good and right about herself. I knew all along the truth, but she didn't tell me until about two years before she passed away, which I had known her for ten years prior to that. She was surprised that I never said anything even though we shared a bedroom for about six months, but I told her it didn't matter to me. It was sort of a non event, her telling me, and she was really happy about that.





Anyway, she was accused of being *gay* often, which I suppose in one respect she was, but not really...an awful life to have to live, something so basic which is not "accepted" generally, and can lead to such a violent rejection. My uncle Phillip was also transgendered though he started out feeling he was merely gay, he eventually began to live life as a female. Much of his distress with his own condition was created from his father, who was very cruel to him. I remember hearing him screaming obscenities at his son, and reviling him, wishing him death and ill will because of it. (Phillip was his only son, and his namesake to boot.) My uncle Phil(Lys) committed suicide in 1982, cutting his throat in his trailer where he lived by himself. I have no doubt the reason he felt he had to do this was the way his own family treated him. I didn't hear about it for months afterward, and felt so helpless and lost without a way to tell him, as an "almost adult" that I didn't care about his orientation, his gender, I just loved him because he was such a great person, an artist and very gentle and sensitive.

I know it can't be a choice as noone would choose to be part of a group of people who do have to suffer against so much adversity. It would be like choosing to have cancer or have a limb cut off voluntarily. I don't see it.

Liz R., I am so glad your brother has found happiness and success.



THAT is a major accomplishment no matter the gender mix. The fact that he's beaten the odds is even greater.

Liz


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2006)

KanoasDestiny said:


> Edited to add...I think that to a certain degree (and I know that the people who are strictly against homosexuality will disagree with this) that EVERYONE has some sort of attraction to the same sex. That's why we as women can look at another woman and say "Wow, she's so pretty". There is "something" we find appealing about her, in order to say that. Same thing can be said for not thinking someone is attractive...there's nothing to attract us to that person. It may not be sexual, but it is attraction. Does that make sense?


I don't know that what you are describing is so much "attraction" but maybe admiration? Sort of like the difference between wanting to be with or close to that person and wanting to be more like that person, or to emulate that person?

Also, speaking of having women hit on you, this hasn't happened to me, or if it has, I was oblivious. HOWEVER, one time at a restaurant, our server was a man, but dressed as a woman (transvestite or transgender -- sp?). He was really over the top like you'd see on a sitcom! He was laying it on thick flirting with Harvey. I could barely keep a straight face because it was making H embarrassed. I was like kicking him under the table and winking at him. Then when we got in the car I told him HE shouldn't have been flirting with our waiter and he was all defensive "I WAS NOT" like I was being serious. It was pretty funny :bgrin


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## Leeana (Sep 4, 2006)

I pretty much agree with what everyone else said. I know three gay people and i completely respect them and I dont really feel odd around them, there human for the love of god. There not trying to convert me over to there beleifs so i dont think there really hurting anyone.

We live in a VERY conservative area so you dont see to many people around here that are gay or bi or atleast that are open about it.

I completely agree KanoasDestiny said!

I think you only get so many years on this earth so you should be aloud to do what you want for the most part.


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## lilhorseladie (Sep 4, 2006)

OK, I will bite. I personally think that homosexuality is a sin. I don't like it. But hate is also a sin and so while I don't agree with homosexuality, I would never condone mistreatment of someone because of their sexual orientation. I too have known people who were gay. I am a loving person and a great friend and wouldn't turn someone away because of this. I can live with it, but I don't have to like it, but I have to love the person. Now I am zipping on the flame retardant suit


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## nootka (Sep 4, 2006)

Staci, you're to be commended for being brave enough to post and your attitude is admirable even if I don't agree with your perception and interpretation of homosexuality. I don't feel that something like that can be considered a sin, but again, I have a problem with the whole concept of religious rules and interpretations being as they came from a mere mortal in the first place, and I can't see having to bend to a person's will "just because" they said so.






I am glad you are at least open minded enough to be kind and understanding, also accepting. To me a sin is something that is a choice, and gay is not a choice.

Liz M.


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## Cimarron (Sep 4, 2006)

lilhorseladie, I agree 100% with you. No flames from me! Barnbum, I agree !00% about the traditional families being man and woman. No if, ands, or buts. Sheila


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## Valerie (Sep 4, 2006)

I think peoples preferences are just that, their preferences. It's not up to me to tell people what will make them happy, if they are gay, and are living the life they choose to live and are happy in it, I am very happy for them. I agree with the folks who think that gay people are mis-treated, they are and it is very sad, I have never understood why it's anyone's business but the 2 people in a relationship.

The saying I heard once and it just cracked me up was, "Why shouldn't gay people be married, why should we be the only ones miserable?". Haha. I am sorry, it struck me funny, I hope nobody is offended.

To be quite honest, I think anyone that wants to be married should be entitled to be married, I can see where it would bring a lot of security and health benefits to people who otherwise may not have that. I also think that the "traditional family" has been fading since the 50's, just in my opinion. I know that I was raised in a traditional family unit, Dad, stay at home mom who raised 7 kids. Did I think it was the best situation, maybe not, but it was all we had. I found out years later that my Dad worked 2 and 3 jobs while us kids were growing up, and my parents just celebrated 50 years of marriage in June.

I think if people whomever they might be can be kind, and love and respect a child and raise them to be a good person who cares about others, I don't care what your sexual orientation or race or religion is. I think more people need to back to the basics and stop trying to be their kids best friends and be parents again.

Heck, I am married & I don't want children and partly because I know that I wouldn't be a good parent and partly because both my husband and I are selfish and we treat our animals like our kids. We knew from the moment we met we didn't want children, and that we wouldn't be good parents. I am not saying we would have been abusive, before anyone reads more into this than there is. We both just knew that we were not "parent people". I think either you are or you aren't. I know there are days when my Mom, my sisters and even my brothers would like to relinquish the title of "parent" on some days, but they absolutely love being a parent. But me, I just prefer to be the "Super Cool Aunt".

Again, just my opinion.

Great topic Liz!


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## Ashley (Sep 4, 2006)

Barnbum~

Here is your chance to open your mind and try to learn a little bit, just like you tried to get us to learn about religon.

Me personally, whatever makes the person happy have at it, as long as its not something that is against the law.

Matt~

Congrats!


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## justanothercowgirl (Sep 4, 2006)

Staci(lilhorseladie) and Karla(Barnbum) I commend you both for speaking up when what you believe is not the more popular stance. It seems often these days when you take such a Christian stance on a topic such as this that you will be accused of being narrow minded and I find that after reading your expansion on your views it would be unjust to say that. I am glad that you both can say that while you don't agree with homosexuality based on your Christian values that you do value each person equally and would treat them well. That I can respect!! :aktion033:

For the record I agree with Liz that a sin is something that is a choice and being gay is not a choice.

Pam

I love when we can have a great discussion on here!!!!



:


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## nootka (Sep 5, 2006)

I still just can't "get" that something you cannot help is viewed as a sin.

For example, if you came down with cancer, would that be a sin?

Born with a genetic defect? A sin, or genetic chance?

Or if you were born with blue eyes instead of brown..is that a sin? No...it just is.

(and while I'm at it, why are such things as illnesses and unfortunate accidents considered a visitation of god's will and yet something such as being gay, which many consider an illness is "against god's will?" What's up with that? I can assure you my uncle would never have chosen to feel the way he did if he had any bit of choice. HE TRIED multiple times to live as a straight man, he was even married at one point. In the end, he committed yet another "sin" if you choose to believe certain interpretation's of man's bible, and ended his own life, hoping to stop the suffering around him beginning with his own.

I've never been able to understand original sin, either, but maybe that's just why I'm not considered a good "insert religious denomination here". Too many questions and I don't like someone telling me (or anyone else) what to think.

It (discrimination) starts in the innocence of "hate the sin not the sinner" but how do you separate the two? One implies that the "sinner" is doing something wrong by choice (sinning) and what is the alternative? To teach them to stop with punishment or negative reinforcement. No, not all would choose to do this, but many more immature personalities WILL. They believe they are doing "gods will" and there is no greater calling than to do such. I've heard it straight from many a bigot's mouth, that it is against the will of god and I just see ignorance when I hear it.

Liz M.


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## LindaL (Sep 5, 2006)

I ponder this line:



> a sin is something that is a choice and being gay is not a choice.


 That's the whole mystery right there. Is it genetic? Environmental? A choice???? It's never been answered clearly and consistently. It never will be. That's why it's a great topic for discussion.




Wow!! I come home from the beach to a topic that something I definately can add my 2 cents worth on!!



:

Barnbum,

I am a lesbian. I have been a lesbian my whole life. I knew that I was attracted to women as a child. I was not exposed to any form of gay lifestyle growing up, so it definately was not environmental. I grew up in a very strict church-going Catholic family, with parents that "assumed" that I was going to grow up and marry a man...and so that is how I was "programmed"...and I did marry a man. I was married to him for 12 years and had 2 children with him. BUT....I was still a lesbian and still was attracted to women and I finally had to come to terms with that IN MY OWN MIND...and accept it. I did NOT choose to be a lesbian...its how I was born. I did get divorced from my husband and am now an out lesbian living with a woman...and I am HAPPY!!! Coming out and being TRUE to myself was something I had to do to become happy in my life.

My parents, while they do not agree with my lifestyle have accepted me and my partners, because they love me and only want the best for me....no matter what the Bible (or the pope, who is a human being like me) "supposedly" says.

I am not afraid to tell people that I am gay and do if they ask or it comes up....BUT....I dont hear straight people going around telling others they are straight...I dont understand why I need to even tell people who I'm attracted to....



: *shrug*

As far as marriage goes, the only reason I feel it should be LEGAL everywhere for gay people to marry is for the RIGHTS that straight married people AUTOMATICALLY have by having that legal piece of paper...taxes benefits, medical rights, birth/adoption/custody rights, etc...Straight people take all these things for granted, while gay people who want these things have to go to a lawyer and have special paperwork drawn up to have these rights..and even then they are sometimes not taken seriously, because if a family member says "No", then a partner would have to battle things out in court.... :no:

Again, I am out to whoever cares to know...and if they accept me, great and we can move on (and it doesnt ever have to come up again)...but, if they dont accept me (and I have "ex=friends" who I have just suddenly stopped contacting me after I came out to them)...I just let it be and say it is their own problem they must battle with, not MINE!

The only thing that matters in my life is that I am happy, I live my life caring and accepting others and living by the "golden rule" basically...I do not go out of my way to hurt others or offend them and I try not to judge. PEACE!! :saludando:


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## nootka (Sep 5, 2006)

> I am not afraid to tell people that I am gay and do if they ask or it comes up....BUT....I dont hear straight people going around telling others they are straight...I dont understand why I need to even tell people who I'm attracted to.... *shrug*


Very true. I have pondered that myself. I mean....it's just NOT AN ISSUE with most of the people you meet, whether or not they like to sleep with men or women (regardless of their gender).

I am so glad you have found peace and happiness and I wish for it for you always, Linda and also am proud to say you're my friend.  Plus who else would help me show too many horses in the sweltering heat? *LOL* And thank me for it!

Liz


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## wsf (Sep 5, 2006)

It took me a long time to admit to myself that I was gay. I tried to deny it until I was 18 and I finally came out just this year. I'm basicly out to anyone who asks, except for my parents. I can honestly say that I have never been happier and I'm lucky to have some really great friends.

As for gay marriage, I've always liked this quote: "Don't like gay marriage? Then don't get one."


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## Pepipony (Sep 5, 2006)

I live in the Bible belt and am very suprised at how many people, who claim to be Christians, are such horrible hypocrits. Dont understand how you can go to Church on Sunday and be taught to love thy neighbor, then wake up monday hating gays/people of other color/etc. Boggles the mind.  I do know that this is everywhere and not just here, but seems worse here.

Hey, love is hard enough to find , so if you find it ( as long as its with the same species



: ) then go for it! Everyone deserves to be happy and loved and I wouldnt knock anyone for it. Life is way to short.

My thought is the Bible isnt written by God anyhow. It was written, re-written and written again by white men who wrote into or out of it, what THEY wanted. After all, Thou shalt not kill is in it, yet we had the Crusades.


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## nootka (Sep 5, 2006)

Continued best wishes to you, wsf. I know it is not easy, but I DO think it is easier to accept the way you feel about yourself if you are "out" rather than pretending not to be or in denial, etc. I think there is a lot of terrible pain that builds up in that situation...I've seen it again and again and it's hard to witness.

I love this:



> "Don't like gay marriage? Then don't get one."


So true!

I still think that marriage should be available to anyone willing to commit to another person regardless of gender, for EVERY aspect of it, for the pride and the comfort in it as well as the legal issues.

Liz M.


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## LindaL (Sep 5, 2006)

wsf,

I totally understand your feelings and fear of coming both to terms with your sexuality and then coming out to people, but I am glad you have found happiness in doing so! :aktion033: While everyone has their own way and in their own time in coming out to their parents (believe me whether it is right away or takes years, it never gets any easier)...I decided to come out to them right away (knowing how they would feel) for my own peace of mind. I dont like hiding from them (or anyone) and I wanted them to get to know my new partner. I hope that in time, you will feel comfortable telling your parents you are gay. Feel free to PM me if you want!!


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## justanothercowgirl (Sep 5, 2006)

As I said in my previous post I have always felt that being gay is not a sin because it is not a choice....however...I was thinking about this overnight and I want to pose this question to you all. I still feel that a gay person, who I believe was genetically born that way is not committing a sin HOWEVER(here's the question) do you think that a man/woman who is incarcerated and then turns to acts of homosexuality for sexual satisfaction, who has otherwise been a heterosexual person, is then making a conscious choice to commit a homosexual act and is then committing a sin???

Second question for those of you that know the bible...is it specifically written that homosexuality is a sin?? If it is can you tell me where?

I AM NOT intending to stir the pot here just wanting to continue a civilized conversation on this topic which includes everyone!



:


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## Matt73 (Sep 5, 2006)

I can assure you that homosexuality is definitely NOT a choice. It's almost a preposterous question. Do straight people choose to be straight? Or, conversely, can one choose to enjoy sexual relations with a member of the same sex just "for kicks" (well...some do, I guess :lol: ). Why would someone choose to live a lifestyle that is frought with feelings of self-loathing and ridicule and that may lead to substance abuse (among other forms of self abuse) and sometimes even suicide. To be homosexual means learning how to ignore other's negative views, accepting one's self, loving one's self, being strong, and living the life you were meant to live.



justanothercowgirl said:


> As I said in my previous post I have always felt that being gay is not a sin because it is not a choice....however...I was thinking about this overnight and I want to pose this question to you all. I still feel that a gay person, who I believe was genetically born that way is not committing a sin HOWEVER(here's the question) do you think that a man/woman who is incarcerated and then turns to acts of homosexuality for sexual satisfaction, who has otherwise been a heterosexual person, is then making a conscious choice to commit a homosexual act and is then committing a sin???
> 
> Second question for those of you that know the bible...is it specifically written that homosexuality is a sin?? If it is can you tell me where?
> 
> ...



To answer your prison question. I don't think human sexuality is black & white. Humans are very fluid by nature and I do believe there is such a thing as bisexuality (a whole other thread probably :lol: ). As long as two adults are enjoying consensual relations that make each other feel good, what's the problem? I'm not even touching the whole bible thing



: !


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## Ashley (Sep 5, 2006)

LindaL~ :aktion033:

WSF~ Good luck and I wish you the best!


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## Bluerocket (Sep 5, 2006)

IMO - A person's sexual preference is their own business -

As long as they are participating in consensual sex that does no harm - then I don't care what they do.

In nature animals are also bisexual and homosexual etc...

Many people are also A-sexual as well (e.g. not interested at all!)

JJ


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## Mona (Sep 5, 2006)

WOW....EXCELLENT post Nootka!!



nootka said:


> I still just can't "get" that something you cannot help is viewed as a sin.
> 
> For example, if you came down with cancer, would that be a sin?
> 
> ...



WOW...just kept on reading and also love the posts written by Linda L and Pepipony!! Now I am going to finish reading this thread!




:



justanothercowgirl said:


> As I said in my previous post I have always felt that being gay is not a sin because it is not a choice....however...I was thinking about this overnight and I want to pose this question to you all. I still feel that a gay person, who I believe was genetically born that way is not committing a sin HOWEVER(here's the question) do you think that a man/woman who is incarcerated and then turns to acts of homosexuality for sexual satisfaction, who has otherwise been a heterosexual person, is then making a conscious choice to commit a homosexual act and is then committing a sin???
> 
> Second question for those of you that know the bible...is it specifically written that homosexuality is a sin?? If it is can you tell me where?
> 
> ...



To that, again, I say no, I don't feel it is a sin...if it is two consenting adults. They are fullfilling their physical/sexual needs and desires. If we were not meant to fullfill our physical/sexual needs and desires, then perhaps we should have been made up/programmed differently...like those animals that breed only for the sake of reproduction, and not for personal gratification.


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## nootka (Sep 5, 2006)

justanothercowgirl, no, I don't feel it is a sin in any form, actually.

I happen to know that many younger humans tend to "play around" with those of the same sex and then go on to have a fairly "average" adult life w/members of the opposite sex. I think each person is different and sometimes you just meet that "someone" that you fall in love with. Sometimes that someone could be the same gender. If the situation is further forced by say being in a situation where there are NO members of the opposite sex, then what is wrong with that? As long as noone is being forced against their will, I can't see the damage in it. I think the "wrong" comes from external sources and therein lies the tragedy.

Many gay people laugh and joke about their lot in life, and I know some of them are truly that ok with it that they can, and still others use it as a way of coping, but it in no way seems to me to be something someone would choose just like noone has a chance to choose their skin color nor their genetic makeup. Even IF science determined how and why, I don't see it as an illness or something gone wrong, necessarily, and I hope my posts don't imply that. I just see it as a difference much the same as height or even skin color, it just *is.*

I take people based on their behavior and basic personalities. There are people of every description that I like/love, and people of every description that I end up feeling that I don't enjoy their company. While some of these may be something "different" than me in some way (and every human IS unique in some form or other), I don't focus on that being the reason because it's not. Unless I am directly involved (aka in a relationship with) that person, their sexual orientation would be the last thing that mattered. As was mentioned, we don't go around announcing to our friends "I'm straight" and wait and see what happens. It's assumed.

Liz


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## Amalthea (Sep 5, 2006)

I'm completely okay with the live-and-let-live approach many have and commend you all on your open mindedness, but I do have to say if makes me giggle to read the whole "as long as they aren't blatant about it" thing I've seen whenever topics on homosexuals pop up. I've always wondered if homosexuals say the same thing. "Ya know, Chris, I don't have a problem with the staight people being intimate, just as long as they don't try to shove it down our throats."

Growing up, I was never overtly blatant in my prefrences. Who had time to be boy crazy when there were horses? And horses love you regardless of what the popular kids think!  Because of that, I was "considered" a lesbian. And many people, even adults, felt no compuncture in asking me if I was. Nevertheless, I am straight and to my knowledge never made a "choice" to like men. You are what you are.

Like many who've posted I have gay relatives and friends. It makes me sad that they may may find the love of their lives and not be able to expresss that in a legal manner, like marriage. That they would have difficulty adopting or that the custody of their children, should something happen to their partner, be compromised. I think in the media, marriage is misrepresented. Most of us think of a marriage in the social sense: A public coming together of two individuals who love one another. This may or may not be strongly religious. But what is often overlooked is that marriage, while an adopted social and religious binding, is still a contract. Moreover, "back in the day" it was a contract binding the wealth or power of families or directing that money to future decendents. That's one of the reasons out-of-wedlock birth was such a taboo. I guess that's one of the things that annoys me is when some folks say allowing gays to marry would compromise the insttution of marriage.

I'm glad there are Christians out there who aren't quick to play the "It's a sin, go to he11 and don't collect $200 dollars" card. It's not that mainstream media doesn't want to hear the "Christian voice" it's just that some of the squakers out there make the rest of us look like bigots. I just don't see how I could go to Heaven for hating someone, and go to He11 for loving them.


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## capall beag (Sep 5, 2006)

I wasn't going to reply but thought I would.

JUST IMO!!!!!!!!

I know many people who are gay and certainly I don't think any better or worse of them because of it, in fact, it is completely irrelevant.

I think it is much easier to be straight and so truly believe that people who are gay really are!!! I mean why would you pretend to be?

However, IMO it is silly to say you have no choice in life.

We make choices everyday, and as I think we are all the same no matter our color, sexual orientation, religion, gender etc I think gay people make choices too.

Especially in America you have tons of choice! You choose how and what you do with your life.

I come from a country, Ireland, that up until fairly recently you had limited choices in many areas. If you think you don't have free choice in America you haven't been many other places.

We are all responsible for our own choices, I make good and bad ones everyday!!

I was raised in a Christian home and am a Christian. I definately was brought up to believe that homosexuality was wrong.

But now I am all grown up and can make my own choices



:

I am not sure if it is wrong or right in God's eyes to do many things but I do know that in the Bible which is what my faith is based on, it repeats over and over again NOT to judge lest you be judged and to LOVE your neighbour.

With all the horrendous things that go on in the world every minute of everyday I cannot imagine that a good person who happens to choose to love a person of the same gender will be judged by God any differently than me or anyone else.



:


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2006)

capall beag said:


> With all the horrendous things that go on in the world every minute of everyday I cannot imagine that a good person who happens to choose to love a person of the same gender will be judged by God any differently than me or anyone else.
> 
> 
> 
> :


I agree 100%



:


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 5, 2006)

Even Christians have to admit that the bible says what is a sin for one person may not be a sin for another person. It is what one believes that makes the difference. I do believe that people are born a certain way and it is not always a choice for them to be what they are. Since God made ALL things possible and created each and every person and thing, who are we to say something is wrong for another person? And for Christians to believe that God's greatest commandment was to love others as much as we love Him, how can we not have love and respect for others no matter who they love? Aren't we in this world to learn and if so, doesn't each and every person have something to learn and teach the other? There is no mystery to life if we accept the knowledge that God created each and every person for himself...not for us. What seems to have happened is children are taught what to think instead of how to think so prejudices take hold. Our world would not be in such a mess if it were not for people being told what to think instead of how to think.

There is one thing I see wrong and that is for for teachers to tell their students that they are homosexual for if they think it is normal for them to be that way than let it be. Heterosexual teachers don't make it a point to tell their students they are heterosexual! Let the children learn all about the person their teacher is but they have no need to know what the teachers sexual life is about. Yes, live the life YOU WERE MEANT TO LIVE and let others live the life they were meant to live. If God meant to create ALL then it is our job to accept all. JMHO Mary

For just another cowgirl...from what I understand, the Old testament homosexuality activity was strongly associated with idolatrous cult prostitution as in [1 Kings 14:24, 15:12.] in the New Testament Jesus Himself never specifically mentioned homosexuality...he did condemn all forms of sexual immorality [NKJ, Mark 7:20-23]

Paul in one of his letters to the Corinthians, wrote the verses most often qouted on the subject: dO YOU KNOW THAT THE WICKED WILL NOT INHERIT THE KINGDOMOF GOD? DO NOT BE DECEIVED: NEITHER THE SEXUALLY IMMORAL NOR IDOLATERS NOR THE ADULTERERS NOR MALE PROSTITUTES NOR HOMOSEXUAL OFFENDERS NOR THIEVES NOR THE GREEDY NOR THE DRUNKARDS NOR SLANDERERS NOR SWINDLERS WILL INHERIT THE KINGDOM OF GOD. AND THAT IS WHAT SOME OF YOU WERE. BUT YOU WERE WASHED, YOU WERE SANCTIFIED, YOU WERE JUSTIFU=IED IN THE NAME OF THE LORD JESUS CHRIST AND BY THE SPIRIT OF OUR GOD. [NIV, 1st Corinthians 6:9-11] We can take this as God may know how he created man so therefore He also knows He must forgive them for what they do. JMHO Mary


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## Sun Runner Stables (Sep 5, 2006)

Having gone to a highschool specifically designed for artists of any and all types, I had and Still have a few close friends, who like the same sex. I also have two friends who were and then changed their minds, and went on to get married and have kids years later with opp sex. No big deal, they are people, and I love them, their witty brains, and the wondeful beings they are. I don't Think about their orientation, except for the times came that I would defend them in anger of someones careless or pointedly cruel remark.

Nothing, and I do mean Nothing, gets under my skin and makes me screaming angry then the Gov telling people who are Paying Taxpayer citizens no, *for religious reasons*, for Anything of the controversal issues, gay marriage being one of them! It's nuts. Just plain old nuts.

I went to church when I was younger, auctually had to sneek out of my house to do so because my parents are such staunch anti-dogma people, and loved it!

Loved it until I witnessed seveal acts of inhumane cruelty that drove me from what as a born again, I had been taught was a place of love and respect. Basicly respected elder member comes out, or daught of another Has to have an abortion or Die, and the horrible Horrible way they were treated made be cross out any organized religion altogether. These were good loving wonderful people who gave their every heart,penny, and soul to help others and the church, almost ridden out of our small community tar and feathered....

I will always fight for gay marrige and other rights, for no One voice should control the All of everyone, we are all to diverse.


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## LindaL (Sep 5, 2006)

Capall beag,

Concerning you post about "choices", I had to comment....

I agree that we all make choices every day on how we live our lives. I did choose to come out and live openly as a lesbian and I did choose to be in a relationship with a woman. No agument, there. I could have stayed married to a man and kept quiet about my true sexual orientation and lived as a straight person. I chose not to do that, so yes, I did have choices regarding my life as a lesbian....BUT, I did not choose my orientation. I knew in my mind I was not straight, even if I lived openly as one....living a straight life does NOT make you straight. So, while I had made choices in how I lived openly, I had no choice in who I was attracted to....I was born gay.


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## justanothercowgirl (Sep 5, 2006)

I have to admit I am always a bit surprised by people who think that being gay is a choice. I try to put myself in the shoes of a gay person and here's what I come up with. When you go back to the time in your life when you are a young person and you start to have a sexual awakening(heterosexual in my case) where you actually no longer think boys are just yucky. You start to have your first crushes and attractions to boys, you don't CHOOSE that it just happens, it is a natural part of what happens to your mind and body as you mature and hit puberty. If at that time I were to have been told that being attracted to boys were wrong and not socially accepted by society could I have stopped myself from being attracted to them, of course not!! If I had to hide my attraction and spend a lifetime doing that and having society telling me that it was wrong and a sin, what a miserable existance that would be! Would I CHOOSE that??? COME ON!!! You have got to be kidding me. So if a gay person develops an attraction to persons of the same sex as they come into puberty the same way as a heterosexual person does then I can say they didn't choose it, it just happens they same way that I grew up and became attracted to members of the opposite sex. Now looking at it from a Christian standpoint I can't imagine God would make you that way and then make it a sin to live in the way you were made. Hope that made sense???

Pam


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## capall beag (Sep 5, 2006)

In reply.......I absolutely agree you do not choose you orientation. I did try to make that clear in the first couple of lines.

I, in no way think a person chooses to be Gay and therefore wonder if in God's eyes it is wrong, why would people be born gay.......I don't know the answer to that nor would I pretend to.

I try to stick to Not judging others in this area because I don't know the answers and instead I just take people as I find them, if I like you your orientation would in no way change my opinion of you.


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## Lauralee (Sep 5, 2006)

Doesn't the term "sexual orientation" depersonalize and degrade the union that what we are describing which is an interpersonal relationship between two people? I guess it bugs me when terms like that are used.....this is not really about SEX as much as it is RELATIONSHIPS. Not all marriages between two people even involve SEX.


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## nootka (Sep 5, 2006)

It would appear that I chose my words inappropriately, though I was just trying to put it in a generic sort of way, for while it says to me what your "direction" might be within the world of relationships, I do know that there are many relationships that don't actually involve sexuality, and yet are every bit as committed as a traditional marriage, though lets say that most human beings have this part of themselves in their lives, I assume it to be true of homesexual vs. heterosexual and if there was NOT this part of it, it wouldn't be so "repulsive" to the moral majority.

Anyway, I realize there is MUCH more to it than just the sexual part, though the gender i.e. sex part of it is the BIG turn off for those that are offended or feel it's wrong. If they were just "good friends" I bet there would be less of a problem for those ones and that's not the way it turns out.

I was trying to state it in a way that would be acceptable and yet encompass the basic root of the issue, for many of us can have all the very close friends/girlfriends/boyfriends we want, it is when we say that those are the ones we are sexually attracted to, that it becomes a "Problem" though I don't understand that viewpoint at all.

Sorry to offend,

Liz


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## Matt73 (Sep 5, 2006)

Thank you, "justanothercowgirl"! Well put!!!!


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## Ashley (Sep 6, 2006)

> Now looking at it from a Christian standpoint I can't imagine God would make you that way and then make it a sin to live in the way you were made. Hope that made sense???


This is why I have a hard time beleiveing there is a god.


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## Jill (Sep 6, 2006)

But the way I see it (it's what works for me), there is a God and he doesn't make any love a sin, gay or straight. Love is love and people who find it are lucky. I do not know many gay people, probably because I don't really "know" that many people well enough to "know". One person I know who is gay (my favorite vet) is someone I admire and enjoy so much. He is one of my favorite people on the planet and I think his significant other is a great guy, too! Both of them have been in a horse stall with me at 2am helping to save one of my best horses. They bicker just like H and I do. Probably been together as long as well. When I said I agreed God didn't care who you choose to love (paraphrasing), I didn't mean gays and straights choose their orientation (but you do choose WHO you let yourself fall in love with apart from gender...), but that "my" God doesn't judge people in that way but rather by how they treat others.


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## nootka (Sep 6, 2006)

Jill, if I believed in a god, that would be the way I felt they would treat everyone. It is what I would hope a perfect being would conduct themselves.





Love is love, and it should not matter the conditions, but rather the depth and strength of it as well as you said, the way one treats others. No judgment.

Liz


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## LaraP (Sep 6, 2006)

I had no intentions whatsoever in responding to this thread. But in reading all the posts, and finding in alot of them, "is it a sin to have cancer"? or to be born with some time of problem? If I were gay, I would take great offense of being REFERRED to as being sick in so way. JMO

Just curious. do gay people consider thenselves sick in some way??

Lara


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## Mona (Sep 6, 2006)

LaraP said:


> I had no intentions whatsoever in responding to this thread. But in reading all the posts, and finding in alot of them, "is it a sin to have cancer"? or to be born with some time of problem? If I were gay, I would take great offense of being REFERRED to as being sick in so way. JMO
> 
> Just curious. do gay people consider thenselves sick in some way??
> 
> Lara


Lara, the way people have used that as a comparison, is not meant to mean they are sick. It is meant to show that some things cannot be helped...that they "just are", and that it is something that was not chosen. Sick was given as an example, because of course, people would never choose to be sick.

I don't feel homosexuality is a sickness. It is just a a part of the genetic make-up of that particular person...just like blue eyes or blonde hair.



:


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## momtotwo (Sep 7, 2006)

Awesome discussion!! I am really impressed with everyone who has responded to this thread. This is a subject that can get really heated very quickly. Back when Barney (the big purple dinosaur) was still wearing diapers, I worked at Disney World. Prior to my employment there I had never met an openly homosexual person. It was quite an eye opener working there. I led a very sheltered Life, even though I hung out with the "wrong crowd." I never even thought about the concept of sexual preference before then. Disney took care of that! There are LOTS of gays and lesbians there and they are very open about it. The little area I worked at had 12-14 employees and 5-6 of them were homosexual. They were some of the nicest, giving, empathetic people I have ever met. A couple of the girls talked me into going to a gay bar with them one night. I had the best time that night! We went to three bars, one of which was rather rowdie, and people were so respectful of one another. If a person tried to hit on someone else and that person said they weren't interested, that was the end of it. As far as choice. Why is it so difficult to believe that maybe homosexuality is a biological thing? This is the only area of the human body where people refuse to believe that there could be differences. We have people born with extra limbs, no eyes, two heads, but sexuality is an absolute given? It doesn't make sense to me. I've even taken care of a couple of people in nursing homes who have both sets of genitalia. Another problem I have is the fear so many people have that homosexuals are automatically going to molest children. Homosexual and Pedophile are two different things. It's "safe" for a homosexual to raise a child in foster care but not to adopt and raise that same child? Why? Where does the logic to this come in? When it comes to judging others, all I can say is this, I have NEVER noticed nail holes in the wrists and ankles of ANY person I have ever met. Maybe they just healed really well and I was actually in His presence but I'm pretty sure that wasn't the case. -jo ann-


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## nootka (Sep 7, 2006)

Great. I didn't want anyone to think I was implying sickness in being gay. I tried to use other analogies as well such as being born with certain eye colors, etc. as well. I'm just saying it is something that is not a "choice" it just happens.

Please noone take offense by that, I should have worded it more carefully, just saying so many people get sympathy for things they cannot help that they are born with that people think are "wrong" but I don't see it as wrong, rather it "just is." It is as innocent as that.

I hope I didn't hurt anyone's feelings, I don't want to with that. A friend and I were talking and they suggested we discuss it here since we had discussed other things and there is a wide range of walks of life on here. I know even that there are some who are gay, and they have invaluable inputs and viewpoints as I would not have, not having lived it, rather had friends and loved people that were and that is far different as we all know.

Liz


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## Jill (Sep 7, 2006)

The really bad thing about saying something "just" in print (like here) is that you cannot show inflection and what you mean can be really misunderstood -- like now someone thought people meant being gay is a sickness like a cancer




:


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 7, 2006)

I think if they poke around long enough they (the doctors researchers and scientists) will be able to prove that being gay is something in your chemical or physical makeup.

They may even be able to prove that it can be avoided by genetic manipulation.

The exact same tests, though, would find out what determines that someone is straight.

Thus this also could be determined at birth or before by manipulation.

So...exactly WHAT is the point of these tests and how on earth can they justify the money they are spending on them??

Who actually _cares_??

There are people dying of aids, cancer, hepatitis A, all still incurable and we have people wasting money on trivia like this??

I just do not understand how they get their money!!


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## Jill (Sep 7, 2006)

I think Jane is right and they will eventually find out "what" makes people gay or straight and it will be a physical or chemical difference in our brains. I have known LITTLE kids who you could tell were gay or going to be gay before they could even understand what that stuff means. I'm also curious (I hope this doesn't seem prejudice, I don't mean it to be) why it seems like percentage wise, more creative / artistic people are gay? Or that gay people seem to often be more artistic / creative than straight people? I've always felt this was the case but recently being interested in Truman Capote (from the movie and documentary by A&E) is just making me think more about this...


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## strass (Sep 7, 2006)

I have to apologize in advance for this post. I are who I are and thatâ€™s all I can beâ€¦can't help being a sarcastic smart A any more than I can chose who I am attracted to.



> I've had several women hit on me, and I never feel offended by it.....What an ego booster!!!


 I'm gonna' have to agree with this one completely. The industry I work in is host to real "manly" standards and expectations. Even the â€œopen mindedâ€ guys say they â€œjust donâ€™t want gay guys hitting onâ€ them. I say BRING IT ON! In my physical condition, Iâ€™ll take any form of flattery I can get. Men are known for being extremely shallow and visually oriented. Knowing that makes a compliment from a gay guy all the better for my dwindling ego.



> "Why shouldn't gay people be married, why should we be the only ones miserable?".


 OK, thatâ€™s just funny. One of my dearest friends for the last 12 years got â€œmarriedâ€ this spring to her girlfriend. Iâ€™ve been a â€œBest Manâ€ more times than I can count. This was my first time as a â€œManmaid of Honorâ€. You know, it meant the same to her as my marriage meant to me and it was a privilege to stand by her side. Now, she regrets it just like all my strait guy friends doâ€¦â€¦Careful what you ask for.



> That's the whole mystery right there. Is it genetic? Environmental? A choice????


 Honestly, does it really matter? I donâ€™t know what makes me who I am. I donâ€™t lose any sleep over it either. You donâ€™t need a scientific explanation as justification. Be who you are and be proud of the good deeds that you do.



> They may even be able to prove that it can be avoided by genetic manipulation.


 Hereâ€™s where the â€œmanly redneckâ€ in me really shows: If they can find a way to â€œavoid itâ€, can they also find a way to... maybeâ€¦ add a touch of it to my wife?


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## justanothercowgirl (Sep 7, 2006)

> > That's the whole mystery right there. Is it genetic? Environmental? A choice????
> 
> 
> Honestly, does it really matter? I donâ€™t know what makes me who I am. I donâ€™t lose any sleep over it either. You donâ€™t need a scientific explanation as justification. Be who you are and be proud of the good deeds that you do.


That is truly wise Mike!!

By the way from one sarcastic smart A to another if you are ever looking for another job I think the Blue Collar comedy tour would slide your right in with the rest of the boys!!! :lol: Move over Jeff Foxworthy!!! :bgrin



> I think Jane is right and they will eventually find out "what" makes people gay or straight and it will be a physical or chemical difference in our brains. I have known LITTLE kids who you could tell were gay or going to be gay before they could even understand what that stuff means. I'm also curious (I hope this doesn't seem prejudice, I don't mean it to be) why it seems like percentage wise, more creative / artistic people are gay? Or that gay people seem to often be more artistic / creative than straight people? I've always felt this was the case but recently being interested in Truman Capote (from the movie and documentary by A&E) is just making me think more about this...


I think it is true Jill, they will find that genetic marker that makes folks gay. What a shame all that money isn't being spent on finding out what makes a person a PEDOPHILE!!! Those people hurts others!! Now that would be money well spent.

As for your question on the artistic/creative thing as you know I own a hair salon so I know my fair share of gay men working in this industry and they are always absolutely amazing hairstylists!! It justs seems to come natural to them so have always wondered that myself. I have to say I would be a bit predjudiced in a good way when hiring if I had a gay man put in his resume at my salon as chances are he's going to be highly talented, an excellent communicator, fun fun fun to work with and my cliente will seek him out!!!


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## LindaL (Sep 7, 2006)

Liz,

I have not taken offense to anything you have posted or the way you have worded any thing, so please dont feel like you have to apologize! I am very hard to offend and in fact have not been offended by anyone's response so far, so this thread has been a very good topic and no one has been flamed...phew!! :lol:

I agree with those who have posted about using scientists time and money on finding cures for diseases and such, instead of worrying about what makes someone be born gay...I certainly do not care HOW I was born that way...



: Its who I am and will always be...and I like me just the way I am!



:


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## Jill (Sep 7, 2006)

The only reason I hope they some day find out the "why" of this is so people will stop acting like people choose to be gay.



: You'd think the obvious next thought they'd have is did they CHOOSE to be straight.


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## CountryHaven (Sep 8, 2006)

Wow, 7 pages.

I haven't read the whole post, but I will. Before I do, my personal feelings are:

Embrace who you are, and love yourself. No matter WHO you are, or WHAT you do, odds are pretty good somebody isn't going to like it, or agree with it. You are the only one you have to look at in the mirror in the morning, and be able to face with pride.

Life's too short to be spent in denial, or self-hatred. If the world as a whole would stop finding reasons to hate each other, it would be an awfully happy place.


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## luvmycritters (Sep 8, 2006)

> The only reason I hope they some day find out the "why" of this is so people will stop acting like people choose to be gay. You'd think the obvious next thought they'd have is did they CHOOSE to be straight.




[SIZE=12pt]I agree totally Jill. I have always believed that if a person is gay or lesbian - that it is NOT their choice. I dont believe that and never will. I think that some times when a life is born, it may have gotten mixed up some how - a female feeling like a male ( for lack of better words ) but in a female body - or vise versa. I whole heartadly believe this. I have had gay friends and just loved them. So fun to be around. I have a second cousin who has been a lesbian since forever ( she is pushing 50 ) and has had the same girl friend for years. They even bought a house together. I do not for ONE MINUTE believe that God will comdemn people who are different - as long as you live a honest, hard working, and always thinking of others - lifestyle - I think you ( we ) will all be going home one day![/SIZE]

Lori


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