# The importance of genetic testing



## Songcatcher (Oct 9, 2010)

Just thought I would post this information for educational purposes. Of course, many of you already know this, but it doesn't hurt to have a reminder once in a while.

My favorite foal of the year, Songcatchers Can You Imagine (Candy).

Sire: McSperitts Rowdy Night Image (29 inches, LWO positive (Frame), negative for Tobiano, Ee (one Black and one Red gene), no Cream)







Dam: Bear Farms Nu Genes (30 inches, LWO negative, heterozygous Tobiano, Ee (one Black and one Red gene), no Cream)






Songcatchers Can You Imagine: (18 inches at birth, tested LWO positive, no need to test for anyghing else. Obviously Red, no chance of Silver or Agouti as both of those would show on Black and neither parent has either.)
















I would not have guessed Candy to be LWO positive (Frame) by looking at her, but knew it was a good possibility because of her sire. It certainly pays to test before breeding (which of course will be at least 3 years for this filly).


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## Joanne (Oct 9, 2010)

Freeland the only give away is the facial marking that you would not expect on a tobiano. Otherwise that foal looks to be a tobiano.

That is exactly why we test all pinto horses if they are to be bred to one of our frame (lwo) horses, and why we test all foals that have a parent that is lwo.

That Rowdy line is sneaky!


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## Becky (Oct 9, 2010)

I think it's always important to test if there is any doubt as to whether a horse may be LWO or not. Especially if it's added to the breeding band.

Both of my current stallions are LWO negative, so it's not critical to me that all of my mares are tested. If I were breeding an LWO+ stallion, I would certainly test the mares before breeding.

Reminders are good. Keep reminding!


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## targetsmom (Oct 9, 2010)

Lovely foal and a great reminder, especially with the Rowdy line! Since we breed for pintos and have a (Rowdy-bred) mare that is LWO+, we had our Rowdy bred (Ramblin Starbuck grandson) stallion tested before we agreed to buy him. He is a tobiano pinto and does have white on his face, but he is LWO- or he wouldn't be here.

Friends of ours who were NOT breeding for pintos, and knew nothing about LWO, bred a pinto stallion (visual tobiano) to a visual solid (Rowdy-bred) mare and the result, unfortunately, was a lethal white foal. It was a devastating way to learn about the issue. Much better to learn on a forum.


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## Jill (Oct 9, 2010)

Very educational thread


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## albahurst (Oct 9, 2010)

Not a spot on him other than a few white hairs for a 'star'. Blue eyes were the give away. Yep- LWO positive.

This is really a good reminder, Freeland. Your filly is really pretty. I would not have thought her to be LWO just by looking, either. But, like others, I think any offspring out of a known LWO + parent should be tested before breeding.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 9, 2010)

I think whenever a foal is sired or out of a LWO the offspring should be tested, I am not in that position but I think that I should.

That is one pretty foal, but I do think there is Sabino there as well as that is not a typical Frame face marking, but is fairly typical of Sabino.

(Yes I know Sabino usually puts white on the chin, but it is not a very strong "fighter" and Tobiano really does not like white on the face, so I think that is what has negated the white on the chin)

She really is beautiful, I can see why you like her so much!!


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## HGFarm (Oct 9, 2010)

I dont have pintos but omg, I would never have guessed!! Am sending this to my neighbors who DO have pintos!


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## Double T (Oct 9, 2010)

Please bare with me as I'm just starting to understand the pinto genes, lol But does the stallion have any white or blue eyes? I'm not understanding hwo he could be LWO+?? I guess I'd ask how is he frame with no white??


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## Songcatcher (Oct 9, 2010)

Double T said:


> Please bare with me as I'm just starting to understand the pinto genes, lol But does the stallion have any white or blue eyes? I'm not understanding hwo he could be LWO+?? I guess I'd ask how is he frame with no white??


He does have some white in his face that does not show in that first pic. Also a bit of roaning on one foot (I forget which one). He also has just some flecks of blue in one eye.

The filly has one blue eye and one brown.

Here is a head shot of the sire:






Just above, Albahurst tells of a Grullo colt whose only white was a few scattered hairs in his forehead and he tested LWO positive. It can really hide and then come out LOUD in a foal. Image has 2 or 3 foals that are nearly all white (mixed with Sabino). One is registered as Cremello, but impossible as Image is tested negative for Cream.


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## minie812 (Oct 9, 2010)

That is a beautiful little filly and I too would never had guessed her to be LWO+ I did test two of my stallions since both have Rowdy in their background and was Lucky both tested negative. I am like everyone else still learning about color and You have been a big help with your info...THX


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## targetsmom (Oct 10, 2010)

minie812 said:


> ... I did test two of my stallions since both have Rowdy in their background and was Lucky both tested negative.


Just wondering why you said you were "lucky" that both tested negative? When we tested our LWO+ mare my husband asked what the desired test result was and I told him it didn't matter at all, but we JUST NEEDED TO KNOW. Of course, if we had already owned a LWO+ stallion, then it would have mattered. Remember that LWO+ is the ONLY way you can produce those colorful, popular (and often pricey) frame overo pintos. And you don't increase your chances of getting a frame overo pinto by breeding a LWO+ mare to a LWO+ stallion - all you do is introduce the chance of having a lethal white foal.

BTW, Max (in my avatar) was the result of crossing our LWO+ mare with our tobiano pinto LWO- stallion. He is tobiano and frame (LWO+) just like the filly in the original post.


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## Jill (Oct 10, 2010)

After this thread is no longer current, I hope it can be added to the "Best Of" forum. I think it will help others in the future.


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## supaspot (Oct 10, 2010)

you certainly can't tell by looking ... my Rowdy bred palomino pinto stallion is tobiano and splash , he tested LWO negative , my solid black (two blue eyes) falabella stallion tested LWO positive


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## Reble (Oct 10, 2010)

You guys got me off my butt and went and downloaded the forms to test for LWO and just came back in from taking the hairs of my Rowdy..

Being in a few years, I expect my new filly is LWO / Picture of my stallion is in my avatar. He is Homozygus for Tobiano

Thanks for the information...


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## Lizzie (Oct 12, 2010)

I really do applaud, all those who test and give the results on their websites. As a new Mini fancier, I look through hundreds of sites and very seldom find any disclosure regarding LWO testing. I would think responsible breeders would indeed test and make this public, especially on stallions at public stud.

I guess I'm wondering why more breeders don't make it public if they know or bother to test at all. LWO is something which certainly could be/can be erradicated, if the breed fancy got together on it.

Lizzie


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## Becky (Oct 13, 2010)

> LWO is something which certainly could be/can be erradicated, if the breed fancy got together on it.


Without LWO, there would be no frame overo pintos. Most pinto breeders do not want to 'erradicate' this wonderful, colorful pattern. However, what is hoped, is that anyone who breeds, educates themselves as to the dire consequences that can occur if two LWO carriers are bred together. One LWO parent can produce/sire the loud frame overo offspring which are indeed very much desired.


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## Lizzie (Oct 13, 2010)

I fully understand that Becky, but just wonder why so many seem not to test for it. Or do they and don't advertise results? If all positive LWOs were not bred, would there not be still, a wonderful array of brightly coloured horses still available? Maybe just not frame? Please know, I am not trying to start an argument here, but just asking and thinking aloud.

Lizzie


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## TPs flat rock acres (Mar 7, 2011)

I am learning about colors and genetics in the minis. Have been looking through older emails to educate myself more. I have a mare that was bred to a LWO stallion so if I am getting this all correct if she does indeed have a foal I should have the foal tested correct? Just trying to understand this all. thanks Also I have a Tobiano mare she would not have to be tested or should I?


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## Songcatcher (Mar 21, 2011)

TPs flat rock acres said:


> I am learning about colors and genetics in the minis. Have been looking through older emails to educate myself more. I have a mare that was bred to a LWO stallion so if I am getting this all correct if she does indeed have a foal I should have the foal tested correct? Just trying to understand this all. thanks Also I have a Tobiano mare she would not have to be tested or should I?


The foal should definitely be tested if future plans include breeding. If it is a colt to be gelded, no need to test. I highly recommend all breeding animals be tested, or at least one of the breeding pair be tested negative. LWO can and often does hide without any obvious visual expression.


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