# Carriage Driving/ADS turnouts



## Dr. Pam (Jun 16, 2008)

So many of us are doing ADS events now--Carriage Driving Shows, HDT's (Horse Driving Trials), CDE's (Combined Driving Events), and there is more crossover to the breed shows. Keely's thread was great to show the differences you have to be aware of, so I'd love you guys to show off your Turnouts. Describe the harness and cart you are using, and any comments.

ADS: breeching required, sidechecks allowed (but frowned on), overchecks and martingales illegal. Bike tires are allowed for VSE's (very small equines--39" and under measured at the withers) at the Show Managers discretion. Brown gloves, hats, long sleeves, lap robe/driving apron and whips are required.







Michigan's Blue Cobalt, ASPC/AMHR . Hooked to a Mini Bellcrown, wearing a Chimicum Tack Sport Harness. I am wearing tan gloves--forgot my brown ones, and I got marked down for it.






Late Night Blues, hooked to a Double Diamond wood EE, wearing an Ozark Carriage Harness.






Elegant Echo, hooked to a Houghton, wering a Carriage House Sport Harness. I don't like the look of this cart for Carriage, but it's legal. Youth are required to wear helmets in ALL ADS driving events, so we go for the English riding look.






SR Desert Mist, hooked to a custom made Lignite wearing a custom made Chimicum Tack Sport Harness. Misty is 29 1/2", so nothing "off the rack" fits her!






SR Desert Sun, hooked to a Jerald and wearing the top of the line leather CDE harness from Ozark. For Carriage driving, we use the dash with a brass rein rail, take off the patent boot, and use the wood wheels.


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## Al B (Jun 16, 2008)

And also for those that asked in another thread about using CDE carts with steel wheels in AMHA (don't know about AMHR) shows, I asked the opinion of the AMHA show rules committee (opinion does not make it a rule but it does carry weight) this past weekend and all agreed that there was no problem. The comment was made that steel spokes were just very large wires





Now, this doesn't mean that the judge will like your turnout but they are legal.


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## Dr. Pam (Jun 16, 2008)

Pictures, Al. We want pictures. Susans new outfit with her palomino is gorgeous, and you clean up pretty good, too.


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## Al B (Jun 16, 2008)

Plum Creek CDE during the Monsoon

Lockhart, TX back in April. Note the tires on the carts.

Pine Hill Pleasure Show with Dr. Pam 

Bellville, TX in May. We had 8 VSE entries. Three 10 year old young ladies driving.

NOTE: if you click on the picture a second time it will adjust to screen size.


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## Sterling (Jun 16, 2008)

Thanks you guys...I really enjoyed this thread!


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## R Whiteman (Jun 16, 2008)

This is Levi Cadwalater, 40" shetland 17 years young when gelded and broke to drive. He is hitched to the prototype Pacific Smart Cart in its premier at Happ's, and wearing the Smuckers deluxe carriage harness (betathane) and driven by Dorothy Whiteman.









Ron Whiteman driving Winner's Circle Bs Bandito, 33" stallion, put to a Pacific Smart Cart and wearing a Chimicum Betathane harness. The harness has stainless hardware and the cart has brass hubs, so we added brass conchos on the browband


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## DrivinTime (Jun 16, 2008)

Yes, thanks so much! It's wonderful to see the pictures of minis in action, and to have the photos labeled with the harness and cart type is really helpful. Keep those photos coming!

Lori


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## susanne (Jun 16, 2008)

Thank you all who have posted so far!

Beautiful horses, beautiful turnouts -- this, to me, is what driving is all about (well...I guess we don't see the actual driving...hehe).

I would so love to see the rated mini shows include more ADS-style classes, including turnout and reinsmanship and the like. Of course, the judges (and exhibitors) would have to familiarize themselves with a completely different approach...and accept breeching...


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## Shari (Jun 16, 2008)

Beautiful photos! This is what driving should be!! Elegant,simple, tasteful and with breeching!

(now if I could just win the Lottery!!)


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## keely2682 (Jun 16, 2008)

definately not a picture of the same caliber shared

(pics off cell phone, haven't downloaded camera yet)

but this illustrates our nontradional attire this past weekend


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## dancer31501 (Jun 16, 2008)

The Single horse is in a Rode Cart at Walnut Hill Farm Driving Competition and East Aurora (sp)





















The pair is in a Doctors Buggy
















Thank You Karla from Little Church Minis AKA BarnBum For the GREAT pic!!!

Amanda


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 16, 2008)

Kate and Tex ( AKA Roly Poly ) at Pine Hill in line to run the course.






Had to add a picture of Billy Ray and me. I was pretty dressed down at this point.

Billy Ray is wearing a Chimicum Sport Harness.

My cart is an easy entry that I tricked out with a new seat and back and added a spares box.

Mike Groose made the steel wheels for me. Not fancy, but it works.


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## Laura Leopard (Jun 16, 2008)

It is so nice to see these pics. It's proof that you don't need all those checks and martingales to get your horse to carry themself properly. Just look at all those pretty head sets and way of moving. Just beautiful!

I'm just jealous that we don't have more ADS oportunities here in GA. Come to think of it we don't have much of any kind of driving shows here. Too bad cause we have a lot of fine driving horses.

Laura


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## [email protected] (Jun 17, 2008)

Love this thread - I don't drive (yet is always the operative word!) but love looking at the different looks and learning.

BTW Pam the way you were introducing this sounded just like a fashion show - what a hoot!!

Thanks all for sharing!


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## justagirl (Jun 17, 2008)

LOVE this thread .

I have a question though ..... I notice none of the horses in the pictures have their wither strap/carrier strap hooked into the check rein hook . I assume this is proper , but am left wondering why so many horses in the show ring are showing with it hooked on the check rein hook, which is also the way I was taught . Does it make much of a difference ??


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 17, 2008)

justagirl said:


> LOVE this thread .
> 
> I have a question though ..... I notice none of the horses in the pictures have their wither strap/carrier strap hooked into the check rein hook . I assume this is proper , but am left wondering why so many horses in the show ring are showing with it hooked on the check rein hook, which is also the way I was taught . Does it make much of a difference ??


I think it is on most, you just can't see it. I can see a few pictures where it's not.

I know it hooks on the Chimicum harness. Look at one of the pictures of the Chimicum closer.

Here's a closer picture.

See how hard that little strap is to see ?


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## Ouburgia (Jun 17, 2008)

journeysend, may I ask what kind of bit you are using there?

Love the pinto pair by the way!


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## MiLo Minis (Jun 17, 2008)

JourneysEnd said:


>


Beautiful harness! It looks well fitted and very comfortable for your horse other than I would suggest you have your breeching a little too high and tight. Once your horse gets moving this breeching is going to slip up a little higher even and could end up under his tail. I prefer to see it a little towards the bottom curve of his buttocks when standing so that when it comes up during action it won't slip over the upper curve of his buttocks. You should also be able to slip a hand in between the breeching and him when he is standing and it is not in play.


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## Elizabeth_S (Jun 17, 2008)

Here is Toby with a Houghton (sp?) cart with wood wheels without the boot. As for his harness, I really don't know who made the original, but it has so many different pieces on it now that it's a mute point. I do know the breastcollar he's wearing in the picture is a Smucker's. Toby is an unusually sized mini, so some of the pieces of the harness are mini B sized, and others like the breastcollar, new noseband and new breeching are small pony sized. Toby is 37.5", but he's very broad and long.


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 17, 2008)

Lori,

You're correct. That was our first fitting.

I drove, adjusted, drove some more, adjusted.

It was my first time with "real" breeching.

Hopefully I have it right now.

Thanks,

Vickie


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## justagirl (Jun 17, 2008)

Yeah Vicky , I see it now ... thanks .


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 17, 2008)

Ouburgia said:


> journeysend, may I ask what kind of bit you are using there?
> 
> Love the pinto pair by the way!


It's a myler "knock off" (copy). I believe the brand is Kelly. I don't like it as well as a myler, but it's a lot better than most of the bits around here. A lot cheaper than the myler too.


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## Ouburgia (Jun 17, 2008)

I already thought it was a kind of myler...

Want to trie that sometime.. If I can find one here that fits...

I have ridden my haflinger on a billy allen (copy of myler) and she was very fine with it


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## rabbitsfizz (Jun 17, 2008)

I second the feeling that it is really nice to see so many happy, natural headed animals, correctly trained to pull properly.

Perhaps the few that still see need to drive in these events in a check will take heart and dump it??

I am a little worried by the very high breeching I saw on a couple of horses, and also by the placement of the breeching attachment (do you call them footman's loops??) on the "smart Cart"..the smaller one- they seem far too far back to be of any use- maybe someone with experience of the cart could comment??

You know how I feel about checks in general, but I really do feel very strongly indeed that they have absolutely no place in a cross country drive where a horse could easily lose it's footing and severely hurt it's mouth as a result.

I am very surprised that the CDE people still allow them!!

Loved seeing all the different harnesses, too.


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## Dr. Pam (Jun 17, 2008)

Awwwwww come on Jane, I only counted 2 horses in a sidecheck, and one of them was Keely at an AMHR breed show, where she'd be DQ'd if she didn't have it on. I think Roly Poly had one on to keep him from snacking. Overall, I have seen a huge improvement in driving and harnessing in the miniatures in the last 20 years.


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 17, 2008)

Dr. Pam said:


> Awwwwww come on Jane, I only counted 2 horses in a sidecheck, and one of them was Keely at an AMHR breed show, where she'd be DQ'd if she didn't have it on. I think Roly Poly had one on to keep him from snacking. Overall, I have seen a huge improvement in driving and harnessing in the miniatures in the last 20 years.


That's right, Roly Poly without a check will graze while at a trot.

We keep him in a side check adjusted to where he can get his nose to his knees but not to the grass.


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## MiLo Minis (Jun 17, 2008)

JourneysEnd said:


> Dr. Pam said:
> 
> 
> > Awwwwww come on Jane, I only counted 2 horses in a sidecheck, and one of them was Keely at an AMHR breed show, where she'd be DQ'd if she didn't have it on. I think Roly Poly had one on to keep him from snacking. Overall, I have seen a huge improvement in driving and harnessing in the miniatures in the last 20 years.
> ...






I sympathize entirely! While I don't normally use checks on my horses for anything but breed shows where I am forced to by the rules I did use a sidecheck on my Rocky. Believe it or not while we were doing our extended trot, at which he could actually EXTEND and excel, across the diagonal at a show one time he GRABBED GRASS!!! Chunked himself in the chin at the same time making a loud enough clunk to attract the judges attention who GIGGLED!!! We still placed well but holy cow! How embarrassing!!! Sidechecks DO have their place.


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 17, 2008)

I'm glad we're not the only ones.


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## choclat dreams (Jun 17, 2008)

You know how I feel about checks in general, but I really do feel very strongly indeed that they have absolutely no place in a cross country drive where a horse could easily lose it's footing and severely hurt it's mouth as a result.

I am very surprised that the CDE people still allow them!!

Loved seeing all the different harnesses, too.

I dont know of any CDE shows around here that allow any type of checks. They absolutely have no place in dressage or the marathon!


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 17, 2008)

It's my understanding side checks are allowed by ADS rules so I don't think a show could outlaw them.

Of course unless I'm wrong about the rules. . . .

Leia ? Al ?


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## MiniHGal (Jun 17, 2008)

Side checks are allowed in CDEs at Training level, not at any other level. I don't believe side checks are allowed in any pleasure driving classes unless the vehicle is appropriate for them (some sort of fancy carriage) or it is the park-type class. I am not 'up' on the pleasure rules, but this is about the gist I recollect from reading them a while ago.

So basically, no, they aren't outlawed, but they aren't encouraged either. Of course, with minis being much closer to the ground, they can be pretty crafty about getting the grass. But I've never really had a problem with any of the many horses I have driven (sure doesn't mean there aren't a few determined sorts out there!).

I have to post my turnouts here, when I have time!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 17, 2008)

Come on Bree, I'll make time if you will!





Here's Kody and I back in 2005 at our first formal CDE. We were using our Edgeman easy entry cart and an Ozark Mountain Carriage harness.






Here we are a year later on a rainy day early in 2006 with the same cart and harness and a kick strap from Iowa Valley Carriage Shop.






Then here we are in 2007 at the Happ's CDE with our new Bellcrown Minicrown cart with special-order oak dash and a Camptown/Chimacum Sport harness with the Ozark bridle and special browband. I was still tweaking things so ended up lowering the breeching in the rear, loosening the false martingale on my Freedom Collar, and adding a green scarf and a green band to my hat so we wouldn't look so dark. This was taken at 8AM on a VERY nasty day with a high zoom so the light level was awful!






Unfortunately I don't have the best pictures from 2007 loaded yet (I know, I know, how long does it take me?!) but here's a couple from early this year. Obviously *I'm* not dressed for competition, but this is our marathon turnout and I've finally got his harness perfected. And boy has he learned to drop that croup and GO when I gather him up!















I love this one:






That's our Hyperbike in those photos with the Camptown Harness and Ozark bridle, occasionally with the Iowa Valley kick strap too.

Of course now I've thrown a giant wrench into the works by buying a new sliding backband saddle from Chimacum with open tugs, a California Soft Collar from Tanglewood Farms in CA, and a new bridle from Ozark! OH! I haven't had time to get any of those fitted or tweaked yet so I still haven't decided what I'm using in competition this weekend at Happ's CDE 2008.



It's either the harness I KNOW won't interfer with him because I've already used it or the better-but-untried new stuff. Decisions, decisions. If I use the Freedom Collar I've got carabiners now that I suspend from the neck terrets to run my reins at the right angles.



Dr. Pam said:


> ADS: breeching required, sidechecks allowed (but frowned on), overchecks and martingales illegal. Bike tires are allowed for VSE's (very small equines--39" and under measured at the withers) at the Show Managers discretion. Brown gloves, hats, long sleeves, lap robe/driving apron and whips are required.


Clarification: Sidechecks are allowed at Training Level only, pneumatic tires and wire-spoke wheels are allowed at Training Level only and only if the Organizer allows them, _gloves_ are required but brown gloves are required only by tradition. You'll get marked down in Presentation for any other color but all the rules specify is "gloves, whip, and apron/lap robe" if I recall correctly. Wearing long sleeves, brown gloves, a lovely hat and matching metals between cart and harness are all elements of correct turnout but not required in the rules.



JourneysEnd said:


> My cart is an easy entry that I tricked out with a new seat and back and added a spares box.Mike Groose made the steel wheels for me. Not fancy, but it works.


I love the cart! I wrote an article to be published in the next issue of Miniature World Showcase about tricking out your existing vehicle for CDE and I wish I'd had your photo to submit.







Laura Leopard said:


> I'm just jealous that we don't have more ADS oportunities here in GA. Come to think of it we don't have much of any kind of driving shows here. Too bad cause we have a lot of fine driving horses.
> Laura


There was an HDT there not long ago that several minis competed in.



justagirl said:


> I have a question though ..... I notice none of the horses in the pictures have their wither strap/carrier strap hooked into the check rein hook . I assume this is proper , but am left wondering why so many horses in the show ring are showing with it hooked on the check rein hook, which is also the way I was taught . Does it make much of a difference ??


Only aesthetically IMO. In fine harness they put the neckstrap through the checkhook to make the horse's neck look longer and to emphasize the line of the shoulder. It cleans the picture up and makes things look a bit less cluttered. In traditional carriage harness the neckstrap rests in front of the withers and often has two straps to distribute the weight of a heavier breastcollar and so that if one breaks the collar does not drop down around the horse's knees before you can get them stopped. It would stress the stitching and the leather to put a strap meant to rest directly above the breastcollar back over the check hook. Many of the newer mini sport harnesses come with a separate neck strap connector to keep Freedom Collars and the like from slipping forward if the horse puts his head down but they're more about keeping a shaped collar in the right place than aesthetics.

Leia


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## R Whiteman (Jun 18, 2008)

am a little worried by the very high breeching I saw on a couple of horses, and also by the placement of the breeching attachment (do you call them footman's loops??) on the "smart Cart"..the smaller one- they seem far too far back to be of any use- maybe someone with experience of the cart could comment??

The footman's loops on the smaller horse do indeed seem to be so far back to be of no use, but they do still allow the breeching to do its job. The Smart Cart has adjustable shafts. On the larger pony, the shafts are adjusted out to their maximum length and on the smaller mini, they are pulled in to near their minimum. The footman's loops are on the part of the shaft that moves out, so the loop itself moves out making a nice straight line on the breeching when "out" and less so when "in". We have, however, used the cart with this horse over some rather hilly courses and my husband, as you can see, is not a small man. With an ineffective breeching and the open shaft hangers, he could easily overrun the horse. That has NEVER happened. Just a note; this is not Ron's regular "mount".

Dorothy


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## Shari (Jun 18, 2008)

JourneysEnd said:


> That's right, Roly Poly without a check will graze while at a trot.
> 
> We keep him in a side check adjusted to where he can get his nose to his knees but not to the grass.


Same problem I have with the talented Maggie.. along with me not being strong enough to lift her head when she does get it down. So adjust the side checks like you do. Little extra security never hurts.


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## JourneysEnd (Jun 18, 2008)

Leia,

Glad you like the cart, that means a lot coming from you.

Al's on his way to Happs, this weekend I believe.

Remember I want a picture of you guys together.

Vickie


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 18, 2008)

Actually Al, Susan and I will all be there sometime tonight if I heard him right. Wheee! I'll see what I can do about the pic.





I forgot to say how glad I was to see Dr. Pam posting again and how much I enjoyed those great galleries Al posted. Good job, guys!

Leia


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## Kendra (Jun 18, 2008)

Just wanted to say how much I've enjoyed this thread ... I've entered in a pleasure driving show in a couple weeks, gives me an idea of what I need to change in my harness, cart and outfit to be ready!!

I have so many questions ... have to organize my thoughts and start a thread of my own, I think!!


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## Ouburgia (Jun 18, 2008)

whell, I can't stay behind, can I?

My trainer (used to train hackney's, he is also in "hackney costume" Unfortunatly he had to sell his hackney, and that horse broke his leg last christmas, so now he is having fun wiht my mare..)






Me in my very first driving competition.






had an accident a few years ago with another horse, and I got scared of driving. Whitout my trainer my horse would probebly still not being driven!

The result?

CHAMPION!










btw, I'm still searching for another hat, but I needed something quick


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Jun 18, 2008)

I am enjoying this thread SO MUCH!!! Was at a flea market on Sunday and saw some REALLY KOOL HATS like you wear with your costumes.

Thought about you Ladies











Lori


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## Margo_C-T (Jun 18, 2008)

WOW! I'm impressed by Al and Susan--all the way from east Texas to Oregon for Happs! Gosh, it must be nice to be able to travel so far for fun!!

So--we will all be waiting 'with bated breath' for results and the 'inside story' of every fun moment you guys have at the event at Happs!!

Margo


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 18, 2008)

Margo_C-T said:


> WOW! I'm impressed by Al and Susan--all the way from east Texas to Oregon for Happs!


Washington, Margo, Washington.




They're flying in as I understand it and so is Martha D. from back East! No horses (darn it) but they all wanted to see what such a mini-friendly event was like in person. Last year Merridy Hance flew out to the East Coast and showed one of Martha's minis at Lord Stirling the same weekend I drove all the way from Seattle to Fresno, CA with Kody to show at Ram Tap. Breanna Sheahan came up here from CA two months later to show at Happ's '07 and will be attending the Inavale CDE in Oregon in two weeks (yay!) and I will once again be flying out to KY this fall to attend the National Drive with one of JJay's horses. So I guess you could say the VSE community is becoming very well-traveled!



I guarantee you Al and Susan will post before I have time to so I guess I'll have to ask them not to spill the beans if all goes well. Hehehe.

Leia


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## Al B (Jun 19, 2008)

We are here. Well almost, we're in Chehalis. We will be heading over to Happs soon. It's going to be great fun.

And, Margo, it's just money. We already told the kids that inheritance was nothing for them to be concerned about.





Actually, this is our vacation. Been planning and saving for it for several months.


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## nootka (Jun 19, 2008)

I met you once already, Al, but wish I could again!

Unfortunately, here in Astoria, we have Scandinavia Festival obligations (my son's girlfriend is Miss Sweden) and the price of diesel being $5...well...youch!

Still, we need to get up and visit the Crabby Chickens!

Also, Leia, I'm sorry I missed your call the other day. I hope all's well with the little brat (or the big brat, however you apply it!) and best of luck to you and Kody, I can't wait to hear how it goes!

I have been vicariously waiting for this moment for a LONG time...so happy for you both!

Liz


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