# More cart and harness and attire questions.



## wendyluvsminis (Oct 24, 2010)

I have two mares that it looks like I may try showing at ADS shows. One harness I have is a classic leather with brass fittings. I am buying it, and a show cart from my trainer. The show cart has wooden shaves (curved really purty) and a boot/basket on it. I originally was planning on showing breed shows, and bought the cart for that purpose. With wooden wheels, is this appropriate for ADS shows?

I also have a betathane (the non-shiney one) harness, that has blue patent leather on the bridle and saddle. Is it true that the color would not be appropriate for ADS/CDE type shows? Like really gross? It's a beautiful harness from Star Lake. I am thinking of buying a blue wood, 2 wheeled cart (wooden wheels too) that is just darling, and I thought it would go nicely with the blue high-lights on the harness, and my mare's blue eye!

And regarding what ladies wear at these shows; I see that ladies wear blazers. Are they bought from a certain source? They all look rather English looking, rather than business attire. Do most ladies wear slacks or skirts under their driving apron? Do most purchase or make their apron/lap blanket? And are big hats the standard?

Thanks so much!


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 25, 2010)

wendyluvsminis said:


> I have two mares that it looks like I may try showing at ADS shows. One harness I have is a classic leather with brass fittings. I am buying it, and a show cart from my trainer. The show cart has wooden shaves (curved really purty) and a boot/basket on it. I originally was planning on showing breed shows, and bought the cart for that purpose. With wooden wheels, is this appropriate for ADS shows?
> 
> I also have a betathane (the non-shiney one) harness, that has blue patent leather on the bridle and saddle. Is it true that the color would not be appropriate for ADS/CDE type shows? Like really gross? It's a beautiful harness from Star Lake. I am thinking of buying a blue wood, 2 wheeled cart (wooden wheels too) that is just darling, and I thought it would go nicely with the blue high-lights on the harness, and my mare's blue eye!
> 
> ...


It sounds like either cart would be suitable for pleasure driving with the wooden wheels. Your leather and brass harness is very classic for pleasure as long as it matches the metal on your cart or the metal on your cart is painted black but you could also use the harness with blue touches - there is nothing to prevent you as long as it is clean, safe and fits well. As far as dress goes long sleeves are mandatory and a suit jacket looks neat and tidy and fulfills the long sleeve requirement but isn't something you MUST use. Either skirt or pants is appropriate for a lady but most use pants nowadays because of the comfort when getting in and out of a cart. Aprons are easy to make and you can google instructions on your computer. Your apron should match your cart seat as well as your overall outfit. Big hats such as wide brimmed garden style are actually a no-no as the wind can catch the brim. You do need to wear a hat but it should be fairly close fitting and again, match your outfit. You can buy both jackets and hats at an equine supply place or anywhere you can find what you want - I shop frequently at our Value Village second hand clothing outlet.


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## RhineStone (Oct 25, 2010)

wendyluvsminis said:


> One harness I have is a classic leather with brass fittings. I am buying it, and a show cart from my trainer. The show cart has wooden shaves (curved really purty) and a boot/basket on it. I originally was planning on showing breed shows, and bought the cart for that purpose. With wooden wheels, is this appropriate for ADS shows?
> 
> A black and brass leather harness is very appropriate for ADS pleasure shows or Combined Driving Events. Vehicles at Midwest pleasure shows must have wooden wheels, so this cart sounds appropriate.
> 
> ...


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## Minxiesmom (Oct 25, 2010)

Many judges feel that mini drivers should wear smaller hats. I haven't run into this as a problem AS LONG as the hat brim is inside the shoulders, and the style "goes with" the vehicle. Where drivers run into more trouble is wearing a big formal coaching hat in a "grocery-getter" vehicle with an informal pinto "Indian Pony".

This only scratches the surface of the "unwritten rules" of Turnout!

Myrna

Oh,no! Myrna-does this mean my beautiful Elvis is an informal! I call discrimination!


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## RhineStone (Oct 25, 2010)

Minxiesmom said:


> Oh,no! Myrna-does this mean my beautiful Elvis is an informal! I call discrimination!


You want to talk discrimination....we drive a Pinto + Arab! Luckily, he was a good boy and impressed most judges. Some traditional judges can "look down upon", or at least not take so seriously, a big white pinto vs. a nice bay or gray Warmblood. And I have heard some people say that Arabs don't drive!



He won "Most Authentic" once at a show, and we were like, "What?" In the 1800's, Spider would have been considered "gaudy"! White markings were highly frowned upon (maybe because roads were dirt and horses would be a mess



). There is an understanding that women did not drive white or gray horses, as they would be full of white hair when they arrived at their destination. This _could_ affect a placing if all else is equal and there is a very traditional judge.

Informal is fine, as long as the whole turnout "goes"! Spider, put to a Meadowbrook, got called as a Finalist for Concours d' Elegance once. We thought they were kidding! I asked the volunteer, "You mean MY husband...with Indian Pony?" He didn't win, but it was an honor to be selected as a Finalist.

Myrna


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## wendyluvsminis (Oct 25, 2010)

That is so funny! In the 1800's, wouldn't Spider's ancestors either be involved in buffalo hunts or running across the Arabian deserts, not pulling beautiful carts in England?

Are white socks looked down upon these days? Thought I would ask, since lots of my horses have lots of white socks! I do have a gelding, my Spider (!) that we will train in a couple years, that only has one small sock and a dab of white on his nose. He is the product of a wild frame overo and wild-colored tobiano, but is colored very conservatively!


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## Annabellarose (Oct 25, 2010)

wendyluvsminis said:


> That is so funny! In the 1800's, wouldn't Spider's ancestors either be involved in buffalo hunts or running across the Arabian deserts, not pulling beautiful carts in England?


ACTUALLY, there were quite a few Arabian studs that were established in England during the 1800s. How far do these "unwritten rules" harken back?


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## RhineStone (Oct 25, 2010)

Oh, I'm sure that there was the rare exception that might have drove an Arab in England. They are the oldest breed, you know. But more than likely, the English drove Hackneys, Cobs, etc. You also have to remember that some of the present-day Arabs have a bad reputation amongst other breed fanciers. A lot of people consider them too hot and flighty to drive. The psycho "feed 'em and lead 'em" horses are what people remember vs. the performance bloodlines that are very sane.





No, white markings are not looked down upon as much as in the past. (Remember, we show a big 75% white pinto!



) For the most part, if your horse performs well (moves good and behaves), you are in the ribbons regardless of what color your horse is. But again, you don't put a loud pinto to a formal Park Phaeton (not usually an issue with minis!). Formal horse (bay, black, gray, some chestnuts with or without leg & face markings) to a formal carriage. Informal horse (any pintos, roans, appys, some sorrels, esp. flaxen) to a more country-style vehicle.

I know of a Haflinger that was put down in the Turnout ribbons because it was put to a Stanhope Gig without a full collar. It was beat out by a Meadowbrook whose metals didn't match! My guess is not only did the full collar "hurt" the turnout (that was the reason the judge gave), but also that a Haflinger is more of an "informal" horse. That same vehicle put to a Friesian won Concours d' Elegance at a different show.

The "show carts" that minis use can be turned out either formally or informally depending upon the finish. Some colors are more formal than others. Black, deep blues, and burgundys are formal. Stained or natural finish is informal. Some greens and yellows can go either way. See what I mean about "unwritten rules of Turnout"?





Myrna


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## wendyluvsminis (Oct 25, 2010)

By full collar, do you mean a Scotch collar? I like Scotch collars and keep telling hubby that when we get team harness (next year), I would like to get them. Are they considered informal? I think my 4 wheeled wagon is more country-like. It's been called a run-about or doctor's buggy without the top.


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## RhineStone (Oct 25, 2010)

There are many types of full collars. A scotch collar is more "draft horse" like and is not appropriate for a Runabout, which is a light horse vehicle. They definitely are not informal, but draft equipment is a whole other topic anyway.



If you are going to turn out your horses in a draft harness, you need a miniature hitch wagon. And you probably won't do well in an ADS Pairs division with a hitch wagon. Maybe in a breed show, it would be fine.

Myrna


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## jleonard (Oct 25, 2010)

This is a fascinating discussion! Myrna, I know you've said these are all "unwritten" rules, but are there any books out there that discuss the history of turnouts? I'd love to learn more!


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## wendyluvsminis (Oct 26, 2010)

This is what our little wagon (or whatever it is) looks like. This was taken at Midwest Horse Fest this year, owned by a fellow from Michigan. Ours is slightly bigger and black. What kind of harness would go with this type of vehicle?

Thanks in advance!


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## RhineStone (Oct 26, 2010)

I would call that a Runabout. Yes, you can use full collars with that vehicle, and actually considering the potential weight, you probably want to, as they will distribute the weight better. You will want to use a carriage harness. Schuttes have a photo on their website of a Runabout with a carriage harness with collars, horsenaroundminiatureequines.com on the "What we do with our horses" page.

The chains that are on the traces of that vehicle from the Horse Fair are inappropriate. (Now to qualify the word "inappropriate", it doesn't necessarily mean that it is against the rules, it just means that it doesn't "go" together, like wearing gold earrings and a silver necklace. As Mary Ruth Marks says, "Sometimes you use what you have until you get what you want."



) Chain traces are a "draft horse" thing, and again, that is a "light horse" vehicle.

Here is a photo of a full size Runabout. What makes it a Runabout vs. a buggy is that buggies have a top. What makes a Drs. Buggy is that the top has sides and are much more closed in, therefore keeping the Dr. drier on his rounds. What a lot of people call a Drs. Buggy is actually a Top Buggy, as the sides are open. If the wheels were the same size on the Runabout, it would be a Road Wagon. (I had to figure all this out when we started showing our Runabout. At the carriage shows, they announce what it is that the horse is put to, and I didn't want the judge to think we didn't know what we were talking about.



)






In regards to the question as to where you find out this info, not only do we collect minis, carriages, and harnesses, but I have a collection of books and articles, too! There is not one _single_ source where you can find all this. I would start with some of the Carriage Association of America's publications, and On The Box Seat by Tom Ryder (considered by some to by the driving bible). I also like Looking at Carriages by Sallie Walrond. There is also a video entitled, An Introduction to Turnout and Presentation by Muffy Seaton. A good share of the "what to wear" is in articles. Some of the better stuff is in ADS Best of the Whip. If you don't have a set, get yours soon. They are not going to reprint. Some of my info is from going to clinics and seminars. I went to John Greenall's Turnout seminar at a conference a couple of years ago. (I even asked him about when you put string gloves under the seat edge, do you put them thumb in or thumb out. A friend of mine turned around and smirked at me like, "You have got to be kidding!"



John laughed and said there is no rule, but he would put them thumb in. Details matter!)

A caveat, I am NO EXPERT on this stuff. I just take it in probably more than the average carriage driver. And I really am not a Historian for the sake of history. I only want to know about this stuff as it relates to what is done now. For example, you don't wear "period clothing" at a carriage show with the exception of certain classes. No corsets and fluffy skirts! (Phew!)

Myrna


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## Minxiesmom (Oct 26, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Here is a photo of a full size Runabout. What makes it a Runabout vs. a buggy is that buggies have a top. What makes a Drs. Buggy is that the top has sides and are much more closed in, therefore keeping the Dr. drier on his rounds. What a lot of people call a Drs. Buggy is actually a Top Buggy, as the sides are open. If the wheels were the same size on the Runabout, it would be a Road Wagon. (I had to figure all this out when we started showing our Runabout. At the carriage shows, they announce what it is that the horse is put to, and I didn't want the judge to think we didn't know what we were talking about.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So, Myrna, This is an informal setup? Would it be more appropriate with a collar than breast collar? Is this one that could go either way...if so, what changes would you make (other than painting the horse brown!)... this stuff is fascinating!


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## wendyluvsminis (Oct 26, 2010)

SO, I will have to figure out (or ask Wayne this week-end!) if my new harness is a carriage harness. If so, would I just need to buy another one like it and collars and a conversion kit? When we first got into minis (4 years ago--I was an A-rab person for 30 years previously!), we bought 2 almost new collars from a gentleman who was getting out of minis. To hang on the wall! I doubt if they would fit these black mares, but maybe for my next "small" team. I know, way ahead of myself! LOL!

The excitement here is my one mare, who has been in training since March (really not sure what she looks like--another one could easily be substituted! Black with 3 socks--must remember that!) is coming home this week-end! We do not have an indoor, and Illinois weather is starting to get bad! She is going to a near-by farm with an indoor for several weeks, and my other mare, her dam, (the one on the video) will join her there on November 5th! Might be able to keep them there till Thanksgiving! Lots of driving time!!!!


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## RhineStone (Oct 28, 2010)

Minxiesmom said:


> So, Myrna, This is an informal setup? Would it be more appropriate with a collar than breast collar? Is this one that could go either way...if so, what changes would you make (other than painting the horse brown!)... this stuff is fascinating!


A Runabout is always an informal turnout. It is the nature of the vehicle. This was not a "showoff" vehicle, but a "run errands" vehicle. But remember, in the 1800's, people always "dressed" to go to town, hence the appropriateness of "church clothes for an average Sunday".

A breastcollar is appropriate, but a full collar can also be used. However, when you look at the angle of the draft, the pull is straight, so a breastcollar is going to pull more evenly. A full collar is better for a low singletree. This has more to do with horse ergonomics than tradition.

Myrna


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