# Long Toes



## Capriole (May 31, 2021)

I'm looking for a larger miniature horse or smaller pony to eventually drive. 
Recently there has been a 6 yr old ASPC gelding posted on my local CL. I keep looking at his ad and going back and forth on him for several reasons ..... He's a tiny bit taller than I was considering and I was thinking of a more stocky, compact pony, but, what really has me concerned is a more recent picture of him shows him trimmed with long toes. 
Older pictures from when he was shown (2017/2018) look like his feet are trimmed correctly.
I don't know how long he's been trimmed leaving his toes that long.
Would it be rude to ask the seller how long he's been trimmed like that?
If it's been years I can't imagine that some damage hasn't occured. 
I definitely don't want to be dealing with navicular down the road.


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## JFNM miniatures (May 31, 2021)

Capriole said:


> I'm looking for a larger miniature horse or smaller pony to eventually drive.
> Recently there has been a 6 yr old ASPC gelding posted on my local CL. I keep looking at his ad and going back and forth on him for several reasons ..... He's a tiny bit taller than I was considering and I was thinking of a more stocky, compact pony, but, what really has me concerned is a more recent picture of him shows him trimmed with long toes.
> Older pictures from when he was shown (2017/2018) look like his feet are trimmed correctly.
> I don't know how long he's been trimmed leaving his toes that long.
> ...



I don't think it would be rude to ask how long he's been trimmed like that or WHY he is being trimmed like that, or if he has any issues with his feet. In fact, it's an excellent question to ask the seller. And it's great that you saw this issue in the pictures.

Like you say, you don't want feet problems, and it's just a normal question to ask when you buy a horse.
You might want to have a pre-buy vet check, especially if you see or hear other things that seem abnormal.


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## Cayuse (May 31, 2021)

No, not rude to ask the seller about it. Just ask "when was he last trimmed?" and that will open the door to a conversation. How long is long? If you really like him you could always ask for a vet check and maybe have a couple of x-rays done or at least have the vet check with the hoof testers. Navicular usually shows up with an upright hoof conformation and boxy foot.


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## Capriole (May 31, 2021)

Thank you both for replying...
It's my understanding that leaving their toes long puts strain on the navicular bone (and surrounding structures) which can lead to damage. I don't know how long that would take (I'm sure it depends on other factors as well), his pasterns look a bit long to me, but, I'm used to stockier horses that have shorter pasterns .
Actually, I figured since he was shown and did well he probably didn't have major conformation flaws that would cause soundness issues later.
It would be horrible if the poor thing ends up having lameness issues due to something that they did intentionally.
Unfortunately, around here low heels and long toes are kind of common...certain people do it because they like the "action" it forces....of course, this is also the land of "dancing" horses


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## Capriole (May 31, 2021)

Weirdly, there was a miniature horse I was thinking about a month or so ago, and I emailed the seller who said someone had contacted her just before me, but, I could still come and meet him... But, the next morning when I looked for his ad to get her phone number his ad was no longer posted, so I figured he had been sold. 
Yesterday, his ad is posted again with some new pictures (they've been saddle training him) and in the new pictures his toes are long too!
That surprised me because they seemed to be into more holistic/ natural horsekeeping.


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## Abby P (Jun 1, 2021)

It's hard to know without more information whether it's because there is a problem, because there is a bad trim, or because there is no trimming! Some horses will just grow that way naturally and if left untrimmed, the toes will look longer and longer. Not saying that's a positive attribute but it's usually managed well with timely correct trimming. Also pony feet "snap back" from this more easily than big horse feet since they are bearing less weight.

Navicular can happen with any hoof conformation - since it's more a constellation of symptoms than an actual "disease". I don't think it's terribly common in small ponies and minis but I'm sure it can still happen. I'd be more concerned about metabolic-related issues or just plain neglect. X-rays would tell you a lot. Can you tell in the pics if the toe wall looks straight, or is it dished or ridgy? Pasterns will often look longer/lower when the toes are too long so that appearance is something that can change unless the bone itself is actually long.

Bottom line is that if the feet look OK otherwise and they tell you it's been months since his last trim, I'd probably assume at his age that it's just lack of trimming. But certainly X-rays are very informative if you can swing that.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 1, 2021)

Wouldn't it be easy to ask for a photo of the bottom of the hoof? You could tell a lot from that.


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## Ryan Johnson (Jun 2, 2021)

When I buy a new horse, I usually ask the owner what sort of "Trimming rotation" the horse is currently on. I have a couple that are trimmed every 4 weeks and an older mare that is every 12 weeks.


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## Maryann at MiniV (Jun 3, 2021)

Some trainers for driving will leave longer toes to encourage more animation, ie. forcing them to lift their feet higher when trotting. Personally, I don't think it's wise for the horse's long term health.


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## Capriole (Jun 3, 2021)

Thank you all for your replies ! 
I'm glad to hear that ponies feet "snap back" quicker...and glad to hear it's not common in ponies/minis.
Maryann...I completely agree!

I may be going to look at the miniature horse this afternoon...


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## Abby P (Jun 3, 2021)

Yes - what Maryann said! It's common with gaited horses too, and there is also a myth that racehorses have a longer stride if their toes are longer. No matter what it's not worth the negative consequences to the horse to do this on purpose.

The good news is though that if it's done on purpose, this is a young horse, it's easily reversed most likely.


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## Cayuse (Jun 4, 2021)

Did you go look?


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## Capriole (Jun 6, 2021)

I did go look.... and put a deposit down on him... and to be completely honest I'm having second thoughts 

I really liked him when I first saw his ad and was very disappointed when I thought he had been sold (he hadn't, she never showed up...ad expired and the seller didn't realize it) anyway, turns out he was a rescue, very scared and distrustful of people...he's a lot better now...still a bit wary of people he doesn't know, but very sweet. The problem is he has a fallen crest 
(Now that I know I can see it in one of the pictures, but, in all the rest it's not noticable). 
It's not something I've ever had to deal with and didn't even think of it....I was trying to remember what little I had read about it and was thinking that it had something to do with diet/care (or lack of) and was mainly cosmetic, and may be improved. So I was willing to deal with it. 
After researching it, apparently it can either be a genetic thing with the Nauchal ligament or due to injury/misuse....or an indication of metabolic disease, which is obviously the one that has me concerned (went through laminitis with my sister in law and her horse).
I haven't taken possession of him yet...so I'm thinking I'm going to have to contact the seller and see if I can send a vet over to check him.
I do really like him, but, not sure about taking on a major issue.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 7, 2021)

Oh, dear. Anything metabolic is a red flag. Did the hooves show clues? I would also be leery of the skittish personality. Sometimes they are just born with a crazy wire in the brain. We tend to think that behavior is all the result of abuse, but sometimes they are abused because they are born crazy. 
There are other horses out there that need homes also; but, if you decide to take him, he would certainly be a learning experience for you.


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## JFNM miniatures (Jun 7, 2021)

Capriole said:


> I did go look.... and put a deposit down on him... and to be completely honest I'm having second thoughts
> 
> I really liked him when I first saw his ad and was very disappointed when I thought he had been sold (he hadn't, she never showed up...ad expired and the seller didn't realize it) anyway, turns out he was a rescue, very scared and distrustful of people...he's a lot better now...still a bit wary of people he doesn't know, but very sweet. The problem is he has a fallen crest
> (Now that I know I can see it in one of the pictures, but, in all the rest it's not noticable).
> ...



If its a truly fallen crest (it really droops to a side, with the appearance of a deformed neck), then there is little that can be done about it to restore it completely. However, if it is slightly drooped, or very cresty, there are things that can be done to stop it from falling completely... There are things that could be done like neck sweating, lots of exercise, fiber foods, avoiding sugars, soaking hay, limiting pasture, and keeping the mane as light as possible, or switching it to the other side.

But as you say, it can be a sign of metabolic disease... and while the horse may not have had laminitis yet, if his crest is because of his metabolism, then there is a strong chance of him foundering at some point of his life, especially in his later years. And I 100% agree with Marsha Cassada. Metabolic is RED flag. Maybe his hoof length has something to do with it.

BTW do you know what kind of lifestyle he currently has ? Is he put to pasture ? What is he fed ? Is he regularly trained and how is he trained ?


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## Cayuse (Jun 7, 2021)

Second thoughts can be normal. If you really like him go ahead and have him vetted. Be there and observe how he is with the vet, his behavior with them could give you some clues about his nature. About the crest, I had one with a moderately fallen crest (somewhat droopy) and it came back to normal.


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## MerMaeve (Jun 7, 2021)

Cayuse said:


> Second thoughts can be normal. If you really like him go ahead and have him vetted. Be there and observe how he is with the vet, his behavior with them could give you some clues about his nature. About the crest, I had one with a moderately fallen crest (somewhat droopy) and it came back to normal.


What did you do to get it back to normal? Our Magic is cresty..... you can PM me if you want.


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## Capriole (Jun 7, 2021)

Thank you so much everyone for the responses 

His hooves don't look like they show any signs to me (ridges or anything like that...It would be so nice if we could post ad pictures here...oh well)

Apparently his hooves were worse when she got him (she actually pointed out his long toes) and the farrier is getting them back into shape slowly (once again, looking closer at the ad pictures, he is standing in loose sand in most of them) That's one of the reasons I wouldn't be able to get him for a couple of weeks, he has a farrier appointment coming up and the seller felt more comfortable having him do the next trimming since he's been taking care of him from the beginning.

He's on a 21/2 acre dry lot with other horses, mini horses and ponies and goats. They are all free fed with slow feeders, alfalfa and grass hay. They have been working with him, liberty training and most recently getting him used to a saddle, but he hasn't been ridden yet.

His crest is definitely leaning to the side...I couldn't tell from the pictures, his neck looks normal from the left side...his mane isn't real long or heavy, but it covers it on the right side.
If it was just cosmetic it wouldn't be a problem....I would still try to improve it as much as possible, but not really a big deal.
A metabolic issue on the other hand is very serious, especially since I don't have horse property and would be boarding him....so couldn't guarantee I would have 100% control over his care.

The seller is very .... tactful, when she answered my first email she said he hadn't been in a very loving home before........when I went to see him she told me that she had reason to believe (due to something the person that had him at the time said) he had been gelded without anesthesia! She said at first no one could get close to his hind end .... he still is a little wary about that, he was nervous but didn't resist having any of his feet handled.

When I handled him he was nervous at first, but still did what I asked and after he got used to me he just stood next to me and dozed (or he might just have been bored  ).

I truly believe the seller loves him and wants what is best for him (she just texted me asking me other questions about where he would be living, etc.) She said a vet check was welcome, so I don't expect there will be any problem with that......I do like him a lot, but, I would rather he go to someone else that can guarantee they can monitor him as closely as necessary if he does have metabolic issues ( or would be prone to them).

I wonder if there's a DNA test that could tell if it was a genetic condition? The fallen crest, that is.


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## Maryann at MiniV (Jun 7, 2021)

Agree with having a vet check done AND that you be present, so you raise all of you concerns with him/her.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 7, 2021)

I wonder about a dna test for the metabolic issue also. That would save us a lot of heart ache. 
Good luck deciding.


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## Cayuse (Jun 7, 2021)

MerMaeve, I put him on Remission and some Magrestore and started exercise for muscle tone (he was not fat, just out of shape and the neck floppy). Long lining him helped. I was probably lucky that it returned to normal, but I was happy it did.


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## Abby P (Jun 7, 2021)

Couple more thoughts...

For the fallen crest - did you feel it (put your hand across the top and pinch)? Is it thick, ridgy, hard? Is there substance there? Or does it seem like it could just be a heavy mane pulling the ligament over to the side? This would be a very important bit of information to have. If there is substance there then that's going to be fat, and metabolic fat. Horses don't build muscle up there and a cresty neck is a sign of IR. But again, without knowing the situation, it's hard to predict how big of an issue it might be - if he came recently out of a situation where he was out on acres and acres of spring grass, that would have me a lot less concerned than if he's been in the dry lot for a long time and still has a big crest. Is he overweight otherwise? Some horses can't tolerate alfalfa.

Second, you have to consider what you are able and willing to do and how much you're willing to alter your plans for the horse based on his health and training needs. You're going to have surprises ANYWAY with a new horse. For example, what is the boarding situation going to be like? Will the only turnout available be grass pasture? That's not a good situation for a metabolic horse. If this will be your only horse, and you wanted to be able to get going right away with doing stuff or have a kid and this will be their pony, that's a lot more to give up than if you were just looking for the experience of horse ownership and doing whatever you are able to do with the horse. You can probably get there either way but when it's your only horse it's a lot more difficult to start out with issues unless you're the sort of person who enjoys the journey.  

I definitely agree that having a vet look at him is a great idea, it will give you a much better picture of what you're dealing with and you can take that information and your boarding situation into consideration and decide whether it will all work out well or not. Good luck and please let us know what you end up deciding - he sounds very sweet and hopefully all of the issues are easily manageable!


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## Capriole (Jun 8, 2021)

I felt it while petting him (like I said, all I could remember reading about it, from a long, long time ago, was that it seemed to be mostly a cosmetic issue) it felt pretty soft, I don't think his mane is heavy enough to pull it over, but, I don't know for sure....I guess if the ligament is stretched it may not take much to pull it over.
I talked to her yesterday about it, she said he was overweight when she got him, the people that owned him just kept him penned up and she said she thought they were giving him grain. She did say the vet examined him when she first got him and said he didn't see anything to be concerned about.
He has lost weight and is in much better shape now.

No, no grassy pastures here, he'd be on a dry lot ....mostly.. weeds crop up here and there. I thought I would continue the slow feeder...I agree with her that it is a much healthier, natural way for them to eat....he seems to be doing well with it.

I feel bad...I'm afraid I offended her (she said she wasn't offended...but....)
I don't think he has any issues now...I'm just concerned that he may be prone to developing metabolic issues...if I could keep him at home and monitor him as closely as would be necessary (if he was prone to metabolic issues) that would be different...but, having to board, I just wouldn't be able to do that.
You know how people are ....even if you have a "Do not feed" sign there are people that are going to be all "Oh my God! Look at the cute little horse....one apple isn't going to hurt" then someone else does the same, etc.
After going through some of the trials of my sister in law's IR / laminitic horse it seems to me the condition is notoriously unstable (of course that was a full blown issue...not just a "could" issue), maybe I'm being overly cautious because I never want to see a horse go through that again.
I really like him, but, I don't want to put him in a situation that could put him at risk. As much as I would love to have him I could live without him....but, selfishly putting him in a situation I couldn't guarantee (as much as possible) his health/safety could cost him his life or put him through a lot of suffering.

Anyway, she, again, said I was welcome to get a vet check or do anything I needed to feel comfortable...I just feed bad that I may have offended her....she is so nice....and she is literally saving these horses lives.


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## Cayuse (Jun 8, 2021)

You probably did not offend her one bit, in fact she might be happy that you are voicing your concerns as it shows you have the knowledge to care for the animal. As far as the laminitis worry goes, I understand how you feel, my pony is going through it and it's difficult. But not all are metabolic and not every metabolic horse gets laminitis. 
It all depends on your comfort level. I personally would have him vetted and go from there, but that's just me and he sounds like the type of horse I like . Plus you have a dry lot which is awesome!


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## JFNM miniatures (Jun 8, 2021)

Ditto to what Cayuse said, I don't think you have offended her. The more questions you ask, the more it means you want what is best for the horse. I think a vet check would just be a normal thing to do. It will probably help you with your decision, and you can always ask the vet his opinion on his future lifestyle, needs, care etc. if you want to buy him. Maybe his management won't be very different from another horse, except maybe to slow feed (like you were saying), soaking hay and making sure he doesn't have access to grass.... normal things a boarding property will usually do if need be.


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## Abby P (Jun 8, 2021)

To be honest I think that most, if not all, ponies are IR to some degree - and certainly not most ponies ever have laminitis. If you have a dry lot and the ability to have the barn not feed him grain, then that is probably going to cover you pretty well. Grass and grain are really the two main culprits, followed by other medical issues (too many vaccines at the same time, another illness or injury, certain medications, Cushing's), when there is no prior history of laminitis. It's worth a conversation with the barn about their treat policy - generally it seems to me that many barns don't want people feeding horses for liability reasons. People can get bitten, and ignorant people can feed horses things that are dangerous to them. But if he'll be in a paddock next to a road, for example, then it might not be so easy to control - the barn should know whether it's a common problem or not, though. Overall I would say I have not had a huge issue with people randomly feeding my horse but I have generally boarded at smaller MYOB type places.

It sounds like the seller is being very honest and that goes a long way. No reasonable seller will be offended by a request for a vet check and as others pointed out, she sounds responsible and caring and is probably happy that he would be going to someone with enough knowledge and concern for his well-being to take good care of him.


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## Capriole (Jun 8, 2021)

Thank you so much everyone, I really appreciate you taking the time to answer 
I am probably overreacting a bit...as it's been pointed out just because a horse may be prone to developing metabolic issues doesn't necessarily mean they will....and even a horse that isn't particularly prone can still develop issues if allowed to get too overweight.
I believe he's healthy now...but, I'll have him checked...


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## Cayuse (Jun 17, 2021)

Any news?


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## Capriole (Jun 18, 2021)

Well...couldn't find a vet that was able to do a prepurchase exam before the 25th (when he'd be delivered) and then she was contacted again by someone from out of state who was interested in him...so I had to make a decision...since the lady would need to make travel plans to come see him....soooo...he'll be delivered on the 25th. 
After calming down and thinking about it I'm not so worried....she also said she would take him back if it didn't work out for any reason.


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## Abby P (Jun 18, 2021)

Congratulations!! We need pics once you get him home!


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## JFNM miniatures (Jun 18, 2021)

Congrats ! Can't wait to see pics !


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## Cayuse (Jun 18, 2021)

Congratulations! She sounds like a pretty good seller to work with, trying to make it easy on everyone as much as possible.


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## Capriole (Jun 18, 2021)

Thank you!!

Yes, she is ....she has repeatedly said she wants everyone to be happy 

To clarify on the boarding...I will be keeping him at my brother and sister in law's house. I work for their company, so I'm there at least five days a week.
The problem before was that all the guys that work for them would give my sister in law's horse treats as they came and went, which contributed to his weight gain/IR. They have all been told NOT to feed the horses....as far as I know everyone is complying...but....I'm not out there all the time....

Oh...there will be pics !


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## Taz (Jun 18, 2021)

Yay!! Congratulations!


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## Capriole (Jun 28, 2021)

Here's Prince...these aren't the best pictures, but, he's still really nervous and skittish.
I've been trying since Friday to get a decent picture, and these are it


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## Taz (Jun 28, 2021)

He's lovely, congratulations. Give him time and hang out with him in his paddock not asking anything of him but just to let you be with him and he'll relax.


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## Willow Flats (Jun 28, 2021)

He is so handsome!!! Congratulations on your new boy Prince.


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## Capriole (Jun 28, 2021)

Thank you both so much!!
Yeah, right now I'm just letting him get used to me and things around here. Luckily he and Farah (the Arabian mare) are getting along great (even though I think they might be a bad influence on each other sometimes  )


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## Cayuse (Jun 29, 2021)

Congratulations, that is a handsome pony. Do see a wee bit of hackney in there somewhere? I bet he moves nice. I really like him!


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## Capriole (Jun 29, 2021)

Cayuse said:


> Congratulations, that is a handsome pony. Do see a wee bit of hackney in there somewhere? I bet he moves nice. I really like him!


Thank you! Hackney? Do you think? I have no idea.... He came from a rescue, so they didn't really know much about him either. He does have a pretty fancy trot ....I thought so anyway... when he was trotting away from me to avoid being caught ... He's getting better though....


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## Ryan Johnson (Jun 29, 2021)

He is lovely , congratulations !!!

Give him time to adjust , Im sure he will come around  Plenty of desensitizing will help you bond with him


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## Capriole (Jun 29, 2021)

Ryan Johnson said:


> He is lovely , congratulations !!!
> 
> Give him time to adjust , Im sure he will come around  Plenty of desensitizing will help you bond with him


Thank you!
Yes, he's already showing a bit of improvement...
They did say he hadn't been in a very loving home before and he's not very trusting at first. No problem....we have time


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## Cayuse (Jun 30, 2021)

Something about his face says maybe little bit of hackney to me, and his neck and shoulders too. I might be all wet though because I like hackneys and "want" to see them everywhere! I bet when you and he connect he will really be fun to work with. 
He reminds me of a pony I had for 26 years and was my heart pony.


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## Abby P (Jun 30, 2021)

Could be posture too! I had someone ask me once if my (small, bay, head-in-the-air) Arab was a Hackney.  

Either way he is danged cute.


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## thathorsecrazychick (Monday at 8:38 AM)

He is so handsome!!


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