# Hopefully an interesting and informative post,



## BannerBrat (Jan 22, 2010)

[SIZE=12pt]Hi everyone, I got this idea from Myrna (RhineStone) on the current kicking strap post. I thought it would be interesting to post whatever pictures we have that help show how the horse moves/carries himself/etc, and then say ourselves what we are doing as far as schooling/training, and our future plans. Also I personally am open to any training ideas to help further benifet my horse and I. If more people decided to put their horses & themselves in this (which I hope they do!) just try to make it clear what you are replying to. [/SIZE]

Okay, I'll start.

Background Info: This is my six year old 36" grade mini gelding Banner. I've done all his training, starting from a nothing long yearling to now. He is a real challenge for me, but I love him to death and really appreciate him because he teaches me a ton. He has shown me a million tricks, evasions, and other quirks that he thinks up. As far as personality goes he's quite the bully with other horses, he's very dominant and seems to get more so with age. I think part of that is that up til a month before I got him he was kept with a herd of stallions. To work with he can be great, but he can also be horrible. Probably 75% of the time he's pretty good. He wants to be worked 7 days a week, even if it's just a 1/2 hr of something. He's okay with doing nothing some days now that he's turned out for 8 hours a day in a huge pasture with two other mini's. He seems to love driving and working overall. 

Here's some pictures...

Here's May 2008, longlining/ground driving. (was hitched and driving at this point.)

going slightly uphill







going slightly downhill.






Driving August 2008;






Here's some pictures from april 2009, we were just starting lunging with a cavesson.
















Here's two pictures of him playing in the pasture, not being chased by anyone except my Mom's gelding. Early Summer 2009. June.











Here's a basic conformation picture. taken summer 2009. July.






Driving Summer 09

With his normal myler comfort snaffle.











With a butterfly french link bit. didn't like it at all.











So there are the pictures.

As far as training I try to incorporate dressage into my training. As far as what are the various things I do when working him are: lunging with cavason, jumping, in hand dressage work, longlining/ground driving, driving, sledding. I'm sure there is some more, but after writing all of this I'm a bit lost, haha.





As far a goals, I'd like to compete in anything like CDE's. Hopefully there will be some stuff like that in this area. Either way though I like to progress through dressage, and so that's a very long term goal; dressage in hand, longlines, and driving.

Our current problem is contact and relaxion at a trot. He loves to keep his head up, being held up with the underside of his neck, rather then correctly through the top of his neck. We have made a ton of progress at the walk and there isn't much I have to complain with that at all. Trot has always been an iffy point for us, but I think that in time we will keep progressing.

Some of the major things in our training regimen are transitions, developing our half halts, and when in doubt go forward.

Feel free to critic in any way you'd like, if you'd like tell me what you'd do with this horse, etc.

Have fun! I'm open to any and all ideas. 

P.S. please let me know if anything is unclear or doesn't make sense!


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## RhineStone (Jan 22, 2010)

BannerBrat said:


> [SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]Here's some pictures from april 2009, we were just starting lunging with a cavesson.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, Ashley! I'm impressed! I'm glad that you started this thread!

The first thing I would say is that your horse has great bending ability. Look at that top photo with his inside hind leg tracking up underneath himself. A horse can't bend properly if they can't get that done. I had a mare who physically couldn't do it, and therefore in order to turn, she would throw her leg out and then pull the rest of her body over it. The turn was more like 90 degrees instead of a nice bend. (Sold her, she wasn't going to make an ADS horse.) Banner has a nice bend in his spine, and he doesn't look like he is being "pulled" to get it. Great!

I would agree with you that he could use some relaxation. Being relatively new to the cart, he may still be "pulling" rather than "pushing" the cart. It usually takes driving horses a year or more to figure out that it is easier to push the cart with his big hind end muscles than to pull it with his front legs and chest. Gradual hill work may help with that. It "forces" them to use their butt. Once he is using his rear end, the front end lightens. Think about it like a motor boat. What happens when you really give a motor boat gas? The hind end drops and the front comes up. That is what your horse should do eventually, but it takes time.

I would also see if you can move your saddle back away from his withers. It's not bad, but I wonder if that would help your relaxation issues.

When you say he has contact issues, are you saying he is too light or too heavy? In the above photo, it looks like he isn't taking up any contact at all. I think that it is harder to deal with a horse that won't take up contact than one that is too heavy. JMHO. A heavy horse usually lightens in the mouth once they figure out how to hold themselves up without you doing it for them.

Anyone else? I need to find some good photos to post here, especially some of 2008 to 2009. You wouldn't believe the difference in my gelding!

Thanks Ashley. I too hope that lots of people get some good ideas here.

Myrna


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## BannerBrat (Jan 22, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Wow, Ashley! I'm impressed! I'm glad that you started this thread!
> The first thing I would say is that your horse has great bending ability. Look at that top photo with his inside hind leg tracking up underneath himself. A horse can't bend properly if they can't get that done. I had a mare who physically couldn't do it, and therefore in order to turn, she would throw her leg out and then pull the rest of her body over it. The turn was more like 90 degrees instead of a nice bend. (Sold her, she wasn't going to make an ADS horse.) Banner has a nice bend in his spine, and he doesn't look like he is being "pulled" to get it. Great!
> 
> I would agree with you that he could use some relaxation. Being relatively new to the cart, he may still be "pulling" rather than "pushing" the cart. It usually takes driving horses a year or more to figure out that it is easier to push the cart with his big hind end muscles than to pull it with his front legs and chest. Gradual hill work may help with that. It "forces" them to use their butt. Once he is using his rear end, the front end lightens. Think about it like a motor boat. What happens when you really give a motor boat gas? The hind end drops and the front comes up. That is what your horse should do eventually, but it takes time.
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Hi Myrna, I'll try to answer everything as best as I can.[/SIZE]

First off, I am happy about what you said as far as bending ability. I totally agree and I think it's one of his finer points. He is incredibly athletic if it's his idea.  Funny thing about that is he's not lazy at all, he just wants to be a part of the decision.





There are times when I can see, and feel, him drop his hind end & really work, but those times are few & far between, mainly on tough hills or on occasion when I'm taking my brother for a ride with me. But I have faith that we'll get it. He's kept in pretty steady work year-round and I'd like to think that he's starting to get muscle in the right places. The motor boat analogy is a great one!





I will move my saddle back, never thought of that, it does look a bit forward. Hmmm. haha maybe it will make a difference, either way I'll move it back.

He takes awesome contact when you use really light reins (as in not bulky at all, like really light rope) and follow his mouth every step of the way. But he does get offended if you bump his mouth and he knows it wasn't his fault. He's really good about giving to the bit most of the time, but there are times when he fights it; nothing specific & never for the same thing. It's just sometimes he wants to fight. (Or so it seems.) I am working on geting him to step into that contact better. Also he never really avoids contact, doesn't go behind the bit hardly ever. (one evasion he doesn't try, haha.) It's kind of hard to explain. But overall I think he has a soft finicky mouth, but he loves his myler... I think.

I would love to see your pictures Myrna!  And thank you for taking the time to respond.


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## jegray21 (Jan 23, 2010)

I would say that to start out in the longe work if he has his head up and is tight then he will def be the same in harness. He needs to build the top line more. Try some side reigns to teach him where to go. Horses really to find being round and through is more comfortable than high and tight but they do need guidance. Also the strength to stay there.


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## susanne (Jan 23, 2010)

I'm officially throwing down the gauntlet to myself -- now I HAVE to get new photos of Mingus showing our progress to date.

First, a couple of photos of him longeing. This first shot was taken before we had ever driven. I see that he was very heavy on the front end. (no I'm not that tiny...just a wierd perspective)






This one was taken after a summer's conditioning for our first (and only, so far) schooling CDE.






For good and for bad, these next photos show how Mingus wants to move when harnessed (or at least how he did in September, 2008). He loves harness racing, in case you can't tell.











A bit more engaged in the hindquarters...






State of the cart: Currently, Mingus is closer to being on the bit, and after warming up on our last trail drive, he settled into a gorgeous, relaxed road trot that felt like he could go on forever.

Mingus, sadly, is severely handicapped by his people -- I've never studied dressage and am learning along with him, whereas Keith thinks his horse can do no wrong  So please, for the sake of our long-suffering horse, give me your honest thoughts and critiques.

[Photo credits go to Daryl Anderson for the first image, and Leia Gibson for the rest]


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## susanne (Jan 23, 2010)

Ashley, I love your description of Banner! Sounds like a certain egocentric gelding that I know... I tend to think these traits make a great driving and show horse.

Between what you've said and the photos, I would love to drive Banner. You can tell he thinks he's pretty special, yet his ears are on you. I think you have a great driving partner!


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## BannerBrat (Jan 23, 2010)

jegray21 said:


> I would say that to start out in the longe work if he has his head up and is tight then he will def be the same in harness. He needs to build the top line more. Try some side reigns to teach him where to go. Horses really to find being round and through is more comfortable than high and tight but they do need guidance. Also the strength to stay there.


[SIZE=12pt]Hi![/SIZE]

When I have the time I do start out by lunging him first until he's thoroughly warmed up and stretching. However I don't notice a difference in him. I suppose if I did it everytime before maybe I would though...



Respectively, I'm not really a fan of side reins and I don't think he'd benifet from it, but could you please elaborate more on what you mean if you have the time. And yes I definently agree with the last two sentences. 



susanne said:


> I'm officially throwing down the gauntlet to myself -- now I HAVE to get new photos of Mingus showing our progress to date.
> First, a couple of photos of him longeing. This first shot was taken before we had ever driven. I see that he was very heavy on the front end. (no I'm not that tiny...just a wierd perspective)
> 
> 
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Hi Susanne![/SIZE]

If you don't mind I'll put in my thoughts on the handsome Mingus. 

I would think that lunging with a cavesson may help Mingus learn to balance and carry himself on a bend. Also it would warm him up better then lunging with a halter. (I'm not against lunging with the halter though.) When lunging with the cavesson you'd want him to stetch down and to your hand, similar to how you want him to with the bit.

Just from the pictures, it looks like he carries some tension through his topline muscles. It kind of looks like it originates from his mouth, I think that as he accepts contact more that will go away. You may also want to look at his bit/teeth. (Not saying you haven't, just thoughts running through my head.)

Does his give to the bit well? If so you could ask him to pick himself up more. (Kind of pushing him up into the bit.) But before that You might want to try to keep better contact and encourage him to stretch down & relax. (especially the underside of his neck.)

I love your pictures, I think Mingus has quite a bit of talent to carry himself quite impressively (and correctly), though he looks very nice as he is. 

And thank you! I'll let the little monster know, I think that in time he will just get better and better in time. He certainly is a character to live with.


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## susanne (Jan 23, 2010)

Thank you, Ashley! Your comments really show insight into Mingus. I neglected to mention that normally we do longe with a surcingle (actually the harness saddle and crupper), bridle and sliding side reins. I need to do this more, as each time he relaxes and carries himself much better.

He was new to this particular bit (French link butterfly) at the time of these photos and was most definitely avoiding contact. He now loves it , but at the time he was not used to it and was resisting. In addition, I had not previously been asking for the contact, and being Mingus, he resented my taking charge.

He has improved greatly in accepting contact, but still has a ways to go. I definitely need coaching on increasing contact and in guiding Mingus where he needs to go. I'd say it's a case of the blind leading the blind, but that's a bit too apt in my case, lol.


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## ClickMini (Jan 24, 2010)

Ashley, your horse is lovely. And Suzanne, you know how I feel about that gorgeous hunk of horse, Mingus! He is so amazing. I hope we see you at some more CDEs this summer.

I have a question for you both, about your carts. I am starting three horses this year (CRAZY! Especially when you find out that I am also starting two of my finished horses as a pair!), and all of them are in the 35-37" range. I am thinking that the standard sized Frontier will not be big enough for these guys. I notice that both of you have the 24" wheels on yours, do you also have the 55" shafts?

Thanks for any info.


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## susanne (Jan 24, 2010)

Hi Amy,

Ours is a CTM cart with 54" shafts and a lift kit.

CTM sells each individual part separately, and are very helpful in customizing your cart to suit your horse. (I think Frontier does this as well, but they don't list parts on their site.)

For Mingus, at 38 inches, they recommended either the mini-sized cart with lift kit or pony-sized cart without lift kit. I would think that for your 35-37 inch kids you'd want the mini cart with 24 inch wheels, no lift kit, and 54 inch shafts (esp if they're big movers), but it sure wouldn't hurt to run it past them.

Now that they have upgraded their wheels to a wider hub, their cart is virtually indistinguishable from the Frontier. I just wish they offered something other than the ubiquitous rose/white/black seat.

Thanks for the compliments on the Ming-Man! Hopefully we will get out this year. Will you be at Oregon Gold (whatever it's name is now).


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## ClickMini (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks for the info Susanne. No OG for me this year. I am starting new driving horses and working Esprit and Flirt toward a pair. Doing all the CDEs I can, including Happs, Inavale, Beavercreek, and Happs DT-T.  I also will probably do the TREC and the Happ's Schooling weekend, and whatever activities Equestrians Institute has in store for us this year.


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## jegray21 (Jan 24, 2010)

[SIZE=12pt]Hi![/SIZE]

When I have the time I do start out by lunging him first until he's thoroughly warmed up and stretching. However I don't notice a difference in him. I suppose if I did it everytime before maybe I would though...



Respectively, I'm not really a fan of side reins and I don't think he'd benifet from it, but could you please elaborate more on what you mean if you have the time. And yes I definitely agree with the last two sentences. 

The side reins in lounging can be used in a positive way. If the horse does not know how to move through the back on the lounge line it is difficult to get them to understand the concept in the long lines. If used properly the side reigns will teach by releasing pressure when the horse finds the correct frame. It is imperative to use the correct length and correct driving pressure with the whip so you do not teach the horse to rear. It helps to build the topline mussel so that when you use the long lines the horse starts to understand how to move up to the bit over his back and pushing from behind. I never use them in a way to restrict the horse only to help him understand what I am asking. The long-lines and driving is very similar to riding just that the whip is the driving aid instead of the leg. I would say that if the horse can not carry himself in the correct frame on the longe line it is unfair to ask him to do the same in front of a cart. I spend time on the lounge to teach and condition...ground drive to focus on teaching half halts and contact...then the cart to build the strength to do the same in the ground driving as he can in the long lines. One comes before the other. Not sure if this makes sense.


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## jegray21 (Jan 24, 2010)

this ace in side reigns here he is still a little tight in the neck...

http://photos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs213.snc3/22043_632942017193_23202112_37590976_7144324_n.jpg

Here he is trying to carry himself a bit more up and to the bit but more relaxed so his stride is starting to open up. Ideally he needs to be more open in the throat latch but that this is still early and I am glad he is off his under neck






this is my 2 1/2 year old...she has loose contact and loose side reigns just to encourage her to reach to the bit...if she wanted to she could put her head up above the bit just not all the way like a para scope sp?.. You can see her lower back is up and throat latch is open...

K critic away!


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## jegray21 (Jan 24, 2010)

ok now the pics match mare is grey ace is the other one and here is another pic of ace


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## jegray21 (Jan 24, 2010)

> State of the cart: Currently, Mingus is closer to being on the bit, and after warming up on our last trail drive, he settled into a gorgeous, relaxed road trot that felt like he could go on forever.
> 
> 
> > he looks very happy here...


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## BannerBrat (Jan 24, 2010)

susanne said:


> Thank you, Ashley! Your comments really show insight into Mingus. I neglected to mention that normally we do longe with a surcingle (actually the harness saddle and crupper), bridle and sliding side reins. I need to do this more, as each time he relaxes and carries himself much better.
> He was new to this particular bit (French link butterfly) at the time of these photos and was most definitely avoiding contact. He now loves it , but at the time he was not used to it and was resisting. In addition, I had not previously been asking for the contact, and being Mingus, he resented my taking charge.
> 
> He has improved greatly in accepting contact, but still has a ways to go. I definitely need coaching on increasing contact and in guiding Mingus where he needs to go. I'd say it's a case of the blind leading the blind, but that's a bit too apt in my case, lol.


[SIZE=12pt]No problem Susanne, I've heard (& seen!)great things about sliding side reins but haven't gotten great results myself when I use them with Banner. He used to not tolerate them at all, but now he does but he really really doesn't like them. I've slacked off using them because I don't think I *need* to use them. I do think they are a good training tool, I just don't think they are a good choice for Banner. We'll see though...[/SIZE]

Haha, I know exactly what you mean with your second paragraph!






I think that as long as you are willing to learn and try (as much as your health allows!



) you a on the right track.

If you haven't already checked them out, the webinars (there a post on them on this forum) are great too. especially the ones with Jeff Morse. 

Here's a link of some various interesting articles of carriage driving by Jeff Morse: Articles



ClickMini said:


> Ashley, your horse is lovely. And Suzanne, you know how I feel about that gorgeous hunk of horse, Mingus! He is so amazing. I hope we see you at some more CDEs this summer.
> I have a question for you both, about your carts. I am starting three horses this year (CRAZY! Especially when you find out that I am also starting two of my finished horses as a pair!), and all of them are in the 35-37" range. I am thinking that the standard sized Frontier will not be big enough for these guys. I notice that both of you have the 24" wheels on yours, do you also have the 55" shafts?
> 
> Thanks for any info.


[SIZE=12pt]Thank you, Amy.[/SIZE]

My cart is a Frontier mini cart with 24" wheels and 55" shafts, I, like Susanne would suggest the 55" shafts if your horses are big movers. The cart in my first driving picture is 48' shafts & 20" wheels and that was a tight squeeze for Banner. Do-able, but not ideal.

I can't wait to hear about your progress with your guys this year!







jegray21 said:


> [SIZE=12pt]Hi![/SIZE]When I have the time I do start out by lunging him first until he's thoroughly warmed up and stretching. However I don't notice a difference in him. I suppose if I did it everytime before maybe I would though...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[SIZE=12pt] It does make sense, and thank you for taking time to explain more.  If you don't mind I have a few more questions about it. I do understand what you mean about pushing into the side reins though. [/SIZE]

Do you adjust the side reins for the different bend of the circle? And change them for when you reverse? I'm guessing you use two side reins, is that how you start them out? Or just with one? Banner is in really good condition, and I'm thinking now we can really start making progress with retraining the right muscles.

Thank you again for your time, I really appreciate it.







jegray21 said:


> this ace in side reigns here he is still a little tight in the neck...
> 
> http://photos-snc3.fbcdn.net/hs213.snc3/22043_632942017193_23202112_37590976_7144324_n.jpg
> 
> ...


[SIZE=12pt] The two pictures that show up for me, are of the same horse I think... unless you have two that are marked very closely!



I think Ace (I think that's the one in the pictures that are showing up) is moving very well & seems to be working very well into the bridle. In the cart, if he can do the same thing I would bet he looks really good.  [/SIZE]

Just a wondering, do you have any problems with the bit being pulled through his mouth lunging like that? I haven't lunged that way because I worry that if whoever I was working was to spook they would pull the bit through their mouth and worsen the problem. But if it works for you then that's great.





Just a question for anyone who feels like answering....

How do you halt halt?

I try to 'pulse' one of the reins slightly, being as light as I think I can be. Sometimes I have to use 'pulses' harder then I'd care for though. and after these 'pulses' I carry on driving or then usually I half halt whenever we're going to do something other then going straight at the same pace, or when he feels like he neds to pay attention a little more.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 24, 2010)

I'm not a great fan of fixed side reins as I feel they lack the sensitivity and give of a rider's hands but I do feel it's important to show the horse what we want in small steps before asking them for it in the cart. I frequently lunge my horses without any equipment to let them blow off steam and will sometimes use a lunge cavesson by itself to encourage the horse to tip his nose to the inside instead of getting resistant through his jaw, but I don't expect the horse will magically learn to stretch that way. Something has to show him the way to the ground and without long-lines of some sort attached that must be an auxillary rein such as a side rein or sliding side rein. Kody spent a lot of time with his nose to the ground naturally as he lunged but his weight was still on his forehand and he wasn't moving correctly despite the flexure of his neck. The addition of sliding side reins helped him learn to work through his back and find his balance a bit higher up. I have some photos of that show it well but unfortunately can't find them online at the moment. This is the closest I've got at the moment:






Both Mingus and Banner show good natural engagement and a talent for stepping up under themselves but neither horse (as pictured on this thread, not judging their current progress which of course we can't see



) is getting off his forehand or using his neck. Jegrays' horses are doing so beautifully although as she comments they are a little tense through the neck and jaw as to be expected of 2 and 3 year olds just being introduced to such work. I would personally prefer to use sliding side reins at that stage so the horse can move his head around and find out for himself where his most comfortable posture is and how to balance but side reins definitely have their place. I would not hesitate to use one side rein at a time on the inside of the circle to help a young horse understand (in combination with a strong driving aid from the handler) how to give to the bit and begin bending. After that however I prefer the sliding side reins in combination with a lunging cavesson to show the horse how to use his whole body. That lovely vertical head position should come naturally as a result of the horse moving from back to front...to force them into that posture without the correct foundation often leads to foreshortening of the neck and lots of tension from jaw to lower back which defeats the purpose.

Mingus is quite capable of lovely correct round movement, I've seen him do it and I think he was just excited at the beach. All he needed was a firm work session with frequent soft transitions and a lot of bending and I think he would have come right back down and focused. Banner sounds a lot like both Mingus and Kody as far as his temperment and that type of horse does take a delicate hand and lots of creativity and patience to bring to full flower. It's worth it though! I agree that he could benefit from limited use of sliding side reins just long enough to show him how to use his topline. He's a thinking horse just like our other boys...he'll take it as a puzzle and soon figure it out without ever getting annoyed at his driver as he can see clearly that you're standing there in the middle of the circle not doing a thing.



He's come a long way in his driving and is developing a powerful (and handsome!) musculature but he has not yet figured out how to truly work through his topline.

I promise I'll post some photos of my horse for critique in a separate thread and pick him absolutely to pieces for you guys.



It'll also be fun over the next two years to see if I can "walk the walk" as my almost-two year old naturally trails his hindquarters at a trot and tends to lock into an upheaded position and stay there. I'm looking forward to working with him and posting pictures as he hopefully learns to seek the bit and engage through the topline. We'll see!

Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 24, 2010)

Sorry, was typing over time and missed the newest replies! Ashley, do you have any photos or video of exactly how Banner reacts when you use sliding side reins? Now I'm curious.







BannerBrat said:


> [SIZE=12pt] Do you adjust the side reins for the different bend of the circle? And change them for when you reverse? I'm guessing you use two side reins, is that how you start them out? Or just with one? Banner is in really good condition, and I'm thinking now we can really start making progress with retraining the right muscles. [/SIZE]


Patty Cloke's videos have the horse started out with one loose siderein on the inside, then adding a second rein on the outside and slowly tightening them over time. Yes, the inside rein is always at least one hole tighter than the outside to keep the horse bending. You do have to switch or adjust the reins when you switch directions.



BannerBrat said:


> [SIZE=12pt] Just a wondering, do you have any problems with the bit being pulled through his mouth lunging like that? I haven't lunged that way because I worry that if whoever I was working was to spook they would pull the bit through their mouth and worsen the problem. [/SIZE]


That's what the little "spoons" on a half-cheek bit are for.



A full-cheek bit is also a good choice for such work as it not only can't be pulled through the mouth but applies gentle pressure to the outside that helps the horse understand what you're asking for.

Leia


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## jegray21 (Jan 24, 2010)

You would want to adjust them based on the goal you are trying to achieve with the side reigns. If the horse is stiff to one side and he tends to face out then lengthen the outside side reign and shorten A LITTLE the inside..

In ace's case the side reigns are elastic and give him the give he needs..they are not there to HOLD the head down..just to be clear...I agree that they do not give as much as the reigns but will still argue that in the beginning a steady contact is helpful as long as they are not too short.

In the moment of the pic he is leaning on the bit and yes it is pulled through his mouth most of the time it sits right.

the half halt is a moment of POSITIVE tension the tells the horse yes go forward but up ward...I hold a fist and release...timing is everything in a half halt if you hold to long it will tighten the horse in mouth and neck..if it is not long enough the horse will consider it meaningless pulling on his bit. the other important point would be to be sure to keep the horse going forward through the half halt so they do not get short behind. That's how I was taught and so far it has worked.

not sure its the pic of my grey mare that I think showed up not sure...sorry for confusion on images...that shows how I transition them from just side reigns to steady reign contact...when she is solid in the contact of the reigns the side reins go away and she is steady and through pretty much all the time during her work...


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## jegray21 (Jan 24, 2010)

Full cheeks are great! I agree


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## BannerBrat (Jan 24, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I'm not a great fan of fixed side reins as I feel they lack the sensitivity and give of a rider's hands but I do feel it's important to show the horse what we want in small steps before asking them for it in the cart. I frequently lunge my horses without any equipment to let them blow off steam and will sometimes use a lunge cavesson by itself to encourage the horse to tip his nose to the inside instead of getting resistant through his jaw, but I don't expect the horse will magically learn to stretch that way. Something has to show him the way to the ground and without long-lines of some sort attached that must be an auxillary rein such as a side rein or sliding side rein. Kody spent a lot of time with his nose to the ground naturally as he lunged but his weight was still on his forehand and he wasn't moving correctly despite the flexure of his neck. The addition of sliding side reins helped him learn to work through his back and find his balance a bit higher up. I have some photos of that show it well but unfortunately can't find them online at the moment. This is the closest I've got at the moment:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[SIZE=12pt] I'd love to see that Leia, I can't wait to watch you progress with your new boy. [/SIZE]



hobbyhorse23 said:


> Sorry, was typing over time and missed the newest replies! Ashley, do you have any photos or video of exactly how Banner reacts when you use sliding side reins? Now I'm curious.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[SIZE=12pt] I know that half cheeks are still pretty easy to pull through if you get a certain angle on them, a full cheek though would probably solve that. What are the advantages to lunging from the bit?[/SIZE]



jegray21 said:


> You would want to adjust them based on the goal you are trying to achieve with the side reigns. If the horse is stiff to one side and he tends to face out then lengthen the outside side reign and shorten A LITTLE the inside..
> In ace's case the side reigns are elastic and give him the give he needs..they are not there to HOLD the head down..just to be clear...I agree that they do not give as much as the reigns but will still argue that in the beginning a steady contact is helpful as long as they are not too short.
> 
> In the moment of the pic he is leaning on the bit and yes it is pulled through his mouth most of the time it sits right.
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Thank you jegray21, I get what you're saying. I may try that with my boy now that I know a bit more about it. [/SIZE]


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## BannerBrat (Jan 24, 2010)

[SIZE=12pt] Here's an interesting article on sliding side reins... http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/la...enna_reins.html[/SIZE]

Not saying its right, but I do find it interesting.

There are a few things I don't agree with throughout her site though.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 24, 2010)

I don't care a great deal for standing side reins even if they are elastic (I don't know about you but I can't even stretch that elastic without using a good deal of strength) mostly because they are a pain in the butt as I can't just change the rein without stopping to readjust them, but I do use them occasionally for short periods of time to help a horse learn what I am asking for if he is having difficulty with learning the sliding side reins. I use them with the inside rein shortened and the horse loose in the round pen. I am not a big fan of lunging for any reason except to start in the long lines and then I usually switch over to a following rein rather quickly. I feel we throw the horses balance off when lunging and teach him what we don't really want to teach.

Bannerbrat's horse shows a good natural bend but loses it somewhat in these pictures of him driving. His conformation makes it difficult for him to use his neck and back properly and I really feel he could benefit greatly from use of the sliding side reins to teach him what will make his life easier. I would start with them on fairly tight and very low and him loose in the round pen - let him work it out without any danger to you. Once he is travelling well loose and has figured out that we are asking him to drop his nose (this horse might even benefit from use of a chambon to start) and round his back then I would progress to work with the sliding side reins while hitched. It may also help you to learn what you need to do with your hands to ask for it. I would like to see you taking more contact than you are here and asking him to move up into the bit more. It would also help him if you were to focus your eyes on where you want him to move to along with a bit more contact and more drive eg. on a circle look to your next quarter and it will improve his bend, on the straightaway looking forward between his ears will help him keep straight. I do feel that at the point in time these photos were taken I would not have been working on bend but rather on getting the horse straight first, after which bend would follow.

I absolutely love the look of your Mingus! He appears to be quite the powerhouse and once you harness that energy and get him working off his haunches he is going to be pure joy to drive! Again I think he would benefit from the use of sliding side reins to teach him what your hands should be asking him for. He doesn't have the natural bend that Bannerbrat's horse does, at least not in these photos, but he sure shows potential. Again his conformation makes it a bit more difficult for him to use his neck properly but less so than Banner.

It is important that when you do start to use contact you remember to make it a following contact and not just set your hands and force your horse into the bit which would make him stiff and not accepting of the contact. He will at first get heavy in your hands but as his strength builds he will be more able to carry himself. Stick to nice soft curves and no deep corners until he has the strength and balance to carry himself through them without falling to the inside - give him lots of support with that outside rein and pulse gently on the inside to ask him to bend, or at least get straight to start, around the curves.

Both nice looking driving horses.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 25, 2010)

BannerBrat said:


> [SIZE=12pt] I know that half cheeks are still pretty easy to pull through if you get a certain angle on them, a full cheek though would probably solve that. What are the advantages to lunging from the bit?[/SIZE]


I know some people do it but I can't think of one. The closest I would come is running the lunge line from the outside of the bit up over the headstall and through the bit on the other side if I didn't have a lunge cavesson and my horse was tipping his head strongly to the outside. Frankly I usually lunge only to let an exuberant horse blow some steam before working or to condition the horse when there's not enough time to drive; if I really want to accomplish bending and engagement and softness I will long-line.



I do see benefit from letting the horse lunge over cavaletti though and prefer to have loose sliding side reins on for that so he neither hollows out nor yanks himself in the mouth should he stumble as he would with fixed side reins.

I found some interesting links and quotes on the subject of side reins after doing some googling. These are only posted for interest, not to argue with anyone. We all have our own ways of doing things and I know some of the classical dressage gurus go every bit as overboard as the gadget-loving folks. I think the truth probably lies somewhere in the middle and is different for each horse.





http://www.classicaldressage.co.uk/html/auxiliary_reins.html

_"Those old masters did not - and neither do those classical trainers who still make use auxiliary reins today - decide to use them without giving the matter a great deal of thought. They were - and are - not seen as a vade mecum and to be used on each and every horse. They were/are not given to inexperienced riders to experiment with, they were/are not used on well-schooled horses. *They were/are an aid to help a horse understand how the stretch of the neck and the lift of the back are good things. They were/are a means to an end not and end in themselves.*"_

http://dressage.wordpress.com/2008/01/24/t...he-young-horse/

_"Why a Cavesson?_

Many people choose to attach the lunge line directly to the bit rings. Either by clipped to the outside ring, threading over the poll and then through the inside bit ring before feeding to the hand; or by clipping to the outside ring, threading behind the chin and then through the inside bit ring.

There are a number of problems with attaching a lunge line directly to the bit. Firstly, you will create nut cracker action on the horses tongue which will be particularly painful. There is a discussion later about the action of the hands on the horses mouth and how detrimental backwards hands – which press on the tongue – can be.

The long term preservation of the delicate mouth is vital for the schooling of the young horse!

*Horses can be unpredictable on the lunge; displaying playfulness. Such headshaking or bouncing around can cause the rider to jab at the horses mouth, even accidently.*

Aside from the physical damage that both these problems can cause to the mouth; there is the psychological damage. For a horse to work correctly under saddle, he or she has to be able to trust the rider’s hands. If, from a young age and in the earliest education, the horse is taught that the bit causes pain; the prospect for good work under saddle isn’t good.

Some people choose to lunge from a headcollar or halter, believing that they are being kind to their horse. The problem here is that the handler has very little control at all over the horse. So, when working your horse from the ground, it is preferable to exert pressure onto the nose than to the mouth. This should ensure the handler some degree of control without the risk of damaging the oh so precious mouth."

I think this guy is a little overboard, but do agree with his point about what happens if the horse plays up.

http://www.sustainabledressage.com/tack/gadgets.php#siderein

_"Sidereins are as inanimate a gadget as anything else, and does not improve the stretching forward-down-out but rather teaches the horse to keep the shape of the neck and jowl and drop from the withers. This is NO STRETCH! ..._

*To make a horse go "on the bit" in sidereins, you need to be expert in driving it forward just so on the lunge, you have to release him often to save him from cramps that cause resistances, and have the horse quite well schooled. So what's then the point, if you have a well-schooled horse and know how to drive correctly? If you can do that, you can longrein successfully, too!* Or why not ride? ...

There's also the problem of the horse stumbling, losing balance, being frisky on the lunge line. And what happens? The fixed leather siderein will snatch the horse in the mouth as hard as he moves his head. This RUINS the mouth of the horse, and makes him utterly insensitive. The possible benefits you can have from sidereins are overshadowed by the fact that they harden the mouth in many intricate ways."

Ah, aren't discussions of horse training fascinating??








Leia


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## susanne (Jan 25, 2010)

Leia and Lori, thanks for you comments!

Mingus is a bit butt-high, and I worry about my ability to help him overcome that and use his hindquarters properly. As you mentioned, Leia, he is certainly capable of rounding up nicely, but he seems to think he looks cool with his back hollowed out and his head in the air...

I'll be starting back in on longeing with the sliding side reins and then driving in larger areas than our corral cum arena (way too small), hoping it gets him to open up and really move.

As for longeing with a bit, I've gone with what I was told early on, and that's use both halter and bridle, with sliding side reins attached to the bit (snaffle position on the Butterfly bit) and longe line attached to the ring of the halter. A bit clunky, but it prevents pulling sideways on his mouth (I'd use the noseband, but our current bridle has a wide noseband.)

I really need a dressage trainer -- even more than Mingus does.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 25, 2010)

That has been what I have seen with the use of fixed side reins. Horses get stiff through the jaw and neck with excessive use of them. Yes his head might be in the right position but you don't get that free flow of energy and rounding through the back because there is tenseness there. If I am having trouble with a horse figuring out the sliding reins I will put them on, as I said, a bit overtight and more so on the inside to basically overflex his neck and turn him loose in the round pen for a short period of time - first on one side, then the other. I find then that when I go back to work with the sliding side reins they give to the soft massaging feel a lot quicker. I use them strictly as a teaching tool when needed. I do use a full cheek with them on to prevent the bit pulling through.

With Mingus I would work on gettting him to relax with plenty of large ovals and circles - NO CORNERS. Use the sliding side reins which will take the place of your hands doing what they should be doing. Even though I know how to tell a horse to bend and flex I still use the sliding side reins in training because it gets tiring with a horse that doesn't know what he needs to do. It could take him a while with his conformation to get the hang of it but with consistant work he will come to it. Don't move on until he is relaxing and dropping his head when you ask, staying straight between the shafts even as you go around a bend. It could take weeks of work so don't be impatient. Gradually move on to slightly tighter figures always being sure to keep him straight between the shafts - you should be able to see his nose on the inside as you travel around a bend. Watch his shoulders that he isn't shoving the inside one ahead as he moves around the bend. You want to keep his weight evenly distributed over his 4 legs which means he has to stretch the outside as he moves around a curve. If you take too tight a turn you will see his head come up and he will get tense again. Don't ask for anything but his regular working trot. Watch for rhythmic movement. That will get him started on the right road.


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## RhineStone (Jan 25, 2010)

I'm not a big contraption user, although I have never used sliding side reins. We used to use side reins, but I have found that the Three H's tend to work better for me, Hills & Half Halts. Hill work really gets them to use their butt and drop their head. Just as I have said before, they figure out that it is easier to use their rear ends to push the cart. The other nice thing about hill work, is that you don't have to have any special training to do it, and it is pretty hard to screw up if you are a novice at training horses (unless you try to drive along a side hill and roll your vehicle



).

Another technique that will get them to use their haunches and accept bit contact better is bending and turning in obstacle work. Set up some cones or filled milk jugs or whatever about 6-8 ft. apart, and start driving through them. Again, it is pretty hard to screw up, just make your bends wide at first. Don't ask for tight turns. It also helps to "stay on the same rein", meaning when you make turns, don't go right and then left and then right. Make all your turns one direction, first. Eventually, make your turns smaller when your horse seems to "get it".

With obstacle work, horses also seem to appreciate the opportunity to "see something different" other than going round and round on a longe line. You are asking for bending in the process, but it also gives YOU a "target". The process of bending will get them to place their inside hind foot underneath themselves (or they fall over), and when they feel secure in their balance, their heads naturally come down. Most horses don't WANT to go around with their heads in the air, they just haven't figured out how to put it down and not fall over! IMO, heads have to come down in the training process before they can come back up and in for the "show frame". In my experience, using a contraption to accomplish this is a "force" that the horse has to learn to deal with instead of figuring out on his own how to balance himself. This process may take a little longer, but then you don't have deal with the compounded problem of adding tension in the training process that has to be gotten rid of.

The other day, I had a lesson with a client and we were working on teaching him how to get the slow trot on the rail (the horse knows it, the driver doesn't). I think it is the hardest gait to do well. The challenge of pushing the horse into the bridle while "pulling them back" (not exactly the right word, but that isn't my point) is hard for the novice driver to understand. My gelding was kind of shlepping around the arena, somewhat hollow during the rail work. My client was getting moments of brilliance, but not consistency. Eventually, we started some cone work. Our arena isn't huge, 60' x 80', and our horse is 16HH with a four-wheel marathon vehicle. Needless to say, the cones aren't set very wide and the course can't go very fast right now (until the snow melts and we can work outside). The process of doing cone work set that gelding on his hind, while the driver was more concerned with just getting through the cones without annihilating one. The slow trot materialized with brilliance, and it was "easy" for the driver!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 25, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> With Mingus...It could take him a while with his conformation to get the hang of it but with consistant work he will come to it.


Mingus is actually built quite well to come on the bit, I think with him it's more a mental thing. He starts overthinking and focusing on everything around him and you can almost see the invisible overcheck snap in place as he stiffens and completely forgets about his body. His topline is nicely round and he gives lovely neck-telescoping gestures when asked in-hand; the biggest thing he needs is to be mentally brought back into his body and reminded gently how to use it...over and over and over.



He's a fun drive! Susanne has been kind enough to let me have him a few times now.







MiLo Minis said:


> Don't move on until he is relaxing and dropping his head when you ask, *staying straight between the shafts even as you go around a bend*. It could take weeks of work so don't be impatient. Gradually move on to slightly tighter figures always being sure to keep him straight between the shafts - you should be able to see his nose on the inside as you travel around a bend. Watch his shoulders that he isn't shoving the inside one ahead as he moves around the bend. You want to keep his weight evenly distributed over his 4 legs which means he has to stretch the outside as he moves around a curve. If you take too tight a turn you will see his head come up and he will get tense again.


After reading the end of this paragraph I think I know what you're talking about but as you've pointed out a lot of newer folk read these threads and if I'm confused I bet they are!



When you say "staying straight between the shafts," what do you mean? To me that paints a picture of a horse keeping his body completely straight and only bending from the neck or shoulder forward and that is not at all what we want. One reason it's so important to have plenty of room between the shafts is so that the horse can move his or her hip over in the process of bending the entire body from nose to tail going through a turn. As you state later, we want him to stretch the outside and travel with his whole body on the arch of the circle. We don't want him leaning like a motorcycle; the inside hind leg must step up under the horse to keep him balanced. A balanced horse is an agile horse, capable of quickly stopping, starting and changing directions without physical injury. Who wouldn't want that?

Leia

Edited to add: Nice post, Myrna! I agree with you 100% about the head having to come down before it can come back up.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 25, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> With Mingus...It could take him a while with his conformation to get the hang of it but with consistant work he will come to it.


Mingus is actually built quite well to come on the bit, I think with him it's more a mental thing. He starts overthinking and focusing on everything around him and you can almost see the invisible overcheck snap in place as he stiffens and completely forgets about his body. His topline is nicely round and he gives lovely neck-telescoping gestures when asked in-hand; the biggest thing he needs is to be mentally brought back into his body and reminded gently how to use it...over and over and over.



He's a fun drive! Susanne has been kind enough to let me have him a few times now.





Well if you know him personally then you are a step ahead but I am going by the photos here and you can see it best in the third and 4th pictures - he has a slightly ewed neck, carries himself naturally heavy on his forehand and is slightly butt high. I would say that is NOT a horse that is "built quite well" to come on the bit - I have certainly met many that were quite a bit more naturally inclined and some that are far worse off than him. I also don't think that he appears tense but rather very excited and seems to enjoy what he is doing, has a bit of a competitive streak and likes to motor. I do think though that he has a tremendous amount of power and energy and can fairly easily be trained to carry himself much better than he is in these photos which will more effectively put his power and energy to good use. Of course I am going by the photos shown here as that is all I have to go on.



MiLo Minis said:


> Don't move on until he is relaxing and dropping his head when you ask, *staying straight between the shafts even as you go around a bend*. It could take weeks of work so don't be impatient. Gradually move on to slightly tighter figures always being sure to keep him straight between the shafts - you should be able to see his nose on the inside as you travel around a bend. Watch his shoulders that he isn't shoving the inside one ahead as he moves around the bend. You want to keep his weight evenly distributed over his 4 legs which means he has to stretch the outside as he moves around a curve. If you take too tight a turn you will see his head come up and he will get tense again.


After reading the end of this paragraph I think I know what you're talking about but as you've pointed out a lot of newer folk read these threads and if I'm confused I bet they are!



When you say "staying straight between the shafts," what do you mean? To me that paints a picture of a horse keeping his body completely straight and only bending from the neck or shoulder forward and that is not at all what we want. One reason it's so important to have plenty of room between the shafts is so that the horse can move his or her hip over in the process of bending the entire body from nose to tail going through a turn. As you state later, we want him to stretch the outside and travel with his whole body on the arch of the circle. We don't want him leaning like a motorcycle; the inside hind leg must step up under the horse to keep him balanced. A balanced horse is an agile horse, capable of quickly stopping, starting and changing directions without physical injury. Who wouldn't want that?

No I REALLY don't mean that we only want his head and neck bending.



What I mean is that I want to see him carrying himself with his weight evenly distributed over his 4 limbs as I said and not shoving one shoulder out to support himself as he pushes the shaft around a curve. But you have to get a horse straight before you can expect him to be able to bend and I was speaking specifically about Mingus as he appears in these photos. If you look you will see that he has his head crooked slightly to the right in all of these photos but the third one. I think he carries himself naturally crooked as do most horses and at the stage these photos were taken no one has been asking him to straighten his body from nose to tail. I would much prefer to see him bend and arc his entire body from nose to tail around the curves with his hind feet travelling the same path as his front feet rather than him throwing that leg out to support himself through the curves and moving crooked between the shafts with his shoulder against one shaft and his butt against the other as he would do now.]


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## RhineStone (Jan 25, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> One reason it's so important to *have plenty of room between the shafts is so that the horse can move his or her hip over in the process of bending the entire body from nose to tail going through a turn*. As you state later, we want him to stretch the outside and travel with his whole body on the arch of the circle. We don't want him leaning like a motorcycle; the inside hind leg must step up under the horse to keep him balanced. A balanced horse is an agile horse, capable of quickly stopping, starting and changing directions without physical injury. Who wouldn't want that?
> Leia


This is HUGE! I have seen perfectly good driving horses go from "agitated" in shafts that are too narrow, to absolutely pleasant in shafts that are wide enough. So many people just measure the length of the shafts and don't realize that you need to measure the width, too. It's definitely not a good thing if you have to pull the shafts apart to put your horse in between them...


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## RhineStone (Jan 25, 2010)

Susanne, I think we need better photos of Mingus



, everybody is seeing something different! Just Kidding!

I have to say that my husband happened to walk by the computer when I had your photos up, and he didn't think that Mingus was a mini! He was impressed!

I would say that he seems a little light in the hind, not conformationally balanced with his front, but that could be the photo, too. I might just be seeing the "extra flesh" from the chest and near leg moving forward. My assumption is that with more work, his back end would develop more.

He seems like he could be a really powerful mover! My gelding moved much like that early in his driving career (I have to take time to reformat photos and upload them so you can see). He is a different gelding now. It will be fun to see Mingus develop.

jegray21, your gray horse looks a lot like my mom's gray gelding at that age.


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## Kendra (Jan 25, 2010)

I just spent an embarrassing amount of time tracking down a before picture of Hawk.

Here he is after about a dozen drives:






And the last time I drove him before surgery and winter got in the way, this past September:






Hawk has always wanted to go with his head up, nose out, and neck upside down and sucked in, and we're still working on truly carrying himself correctly. But I'm liking the progress I see in these photos! I would love to hear everyones thoughts!


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## susanne (Jan 25, 2010)

Kendra, I love Hawk! He is elegant even in his winter woolies!


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## susanne (Jan 25, 2010)

Regarding Mingus' conformation, I want to answer:

D. All of the above.

Does it make any sense to say that all of your observations are true, even those that may seem contradictory? Myrna is absolutely correct that we need better photos (and video) to best show the many contradictions that are Mingus.

Here's a older, less-muscled halter shot of him. He's ridiculously overstretched and his head looks clunky, but conformationally this looks most like the boy I know.








> He starts overthinking and focusing on everything around him and you can almost see the invisible overcheck snap in place as he stiffens and completely forgets about his body.


This is spot on -- Mingus in a nutshell. Even free-longeing with our other horses, he is out there trotting like a Standardbred, wearing that invisible overcheck. (He's never worn ANY check to date)



> he has a slightly ewed neck, carries himself naturally heavy on his forehand and is slightly butt high.stiffens and completely forgets about his body.


His neck is definitely not naturally hooky, and right on the verge of ewe-shaped. The underside of his neck is way overdeveloped (partly my fault from early years of encouraging a too high headset). He's a bit of a chameleon in this area -- I've seen him look both ewed and hooky (not at the same time...). He's definitely flexible and willing to give neck.

He does indeed carry himself heavy on the forehand and he is butt-high, but as Leia noted, he can get those hindquarters well underneath him, so my uneducated assumption is that, with the proper guidance, he can power from the back -- and therein lies the rub!

Mingus can trot like the Energizer bunny as he is, so I think he has less inclination to carry himself properly.



> I also don't think that he appears tense but rather very excited and seems to enjoy what he is doing, has a bit of a competitive streak and likes to motor.


I'd say both: he's tense BECAUSE he is so excited and competitive and love to motor...He is a huge show-off, and he and Kody have an innate drive to show one another up.



> I do think though that he has a tremendous amount of power and energy and can fairly easily be trained to carry himself much better than he is in these photos which will more effectively put his power and energy to good use.


I SO agree with this -- and one of my biggest concerns is that my horse is better than my ability to train him. I feel that I've trained a safe, sane and happy driving horse, but from there forward will be a challenge.



> I would say that he seems a little light in the hind, not conformationally balanced with his front


Definitely -- in part because he is very deep through the heart and his hindquarters look even lighter in comparison. Nonetheless, we definitely need to work more on building that butt! We certainly have the hills (just wish I could fence in the road up to our ridge so they could do their hill work while I sit inside, lol. Hmm...and get Keith to work with Mingus on jumping...do I sound lazy or what?

I can't thank you all enough for your comments and suggestions! Leia has already been an incredible "coach from afar," and now I feel blessed to have a "stable" of knowledgeable people willing to lend their time, observations and advice. You've given me such great ideas on what to work on -- our work is cut out for us!


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## susanne (Jan 25, 2010)

> Our arena isn't huge, 60' x 80'


Now I feel a bit better about our workspace...it's 80x80 feet, although one corner is chopped off by a tree. I keep nagging Keith to clear more underbrush and trees so that we can extend back to nearly twice that length, but who knows when that will happen.

Lori, is 80x80 feet enough for the big, sweeping circles/ovals you have prescribed? I have to admit that I jumped the gun on sharp turns, as Mingus loves turning in place and making tight corners. Good for trail driving emergencies, not so great for proper carriage...now we need to go back and get it right.


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## BannerBrat (Jan 25, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> I don't care a great deal for standing side reins even if they are elastic (I don't know about you but I can't even stretch that elastic without using a good deal of strength) mostly because they are a pain in the butt as I can't just change the rein without stopping to readjust them, but I do use them occasionally for short periods of time to help a horse learn what I am asking for if he is having difficulty with learning the sliding side reins. I use them with the inside rein shortened and the horse loose in the round pen. I am not a big fan of lunging for any reason except to start in the long lines and then I usually switch over to a following rein rather quickly. I feel we throw the horses balance off when lunging and teach him what we don't really want to teach.[SIZE=12pt]Hi Lori, glad you've replied.  I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






hobbyhorse23 said:


> BannerBrat said:
> 
> 
> > [SIZE=12pt] I know that half cheeks are still pretty easy to pull through if you get a certain angle on them, a full cheek though would probably solve that. What are the advantages to lunging from the bit?[/SIZE]
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Very interesting Leia!



[/SIZE]



MiLo Minis said:


> That has been what I have seen with the use of fixed side reins. Horses get stiff through the jaw and neck with excessive use of them. Yes his head might be in the right position but you don't get that free flow of energy and rounding through the back because there is tenseness there. If I am having trouble with a horse figuring out the sliding reins I will put them on, as I said, a bit overtight and more so on the inside to basically overflex his neck and turn him loose in the round pen for a short period of time - first on one side, then the other. I find then that when I go back to work with the sliding side reins they give to the soft massaging feel a lot quicker. I use them strictly as a teaching tool when needed. I do use a full cheek with them on to prevent the bit pulling through.[SIZE=12pt]I'm thinking maybe this would help my boy... I'm sure doing this would create quite a reaction.
> 
> 
> 
> ...






RhineStone said:


> I'm not a big contraption user, although I have never used sliding side reins. We used to use side reins, but I have found that the Three H's tend to work better for me, Hills & Half Halts. Hill work really gets them to use their butt and drop their head. Just as I have said before, they figure out that it is easier to use their rear ends to push the cart. The other nice thing about hill work, is that you don't have to have any special training to do it, and it is pretty hard to screw up if you are a novice at training horses (unless you try to drive along a side hill and roll your vehicle
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Ah Myrna! I've experienced everything that you are saying and have used these different things to vary things up. It sure is nice to see it works for someone else, because I've found that this variation has helped turn around a work session in addition to feeling that the horse and driver is working better. [/SIZE]



Kendra said:


> I just spent an embarrassing amount of time tracking down a before picture of Hawk.
> Here he is after about a dozen drives:
> 
> 
> ...



[SIZE=12pt]It's kind of hard to see in the after picture you posted, because of the gorgeous ribbons!



But he looks to have made considerable progress, how long ago was the first picture taken? I think he moves very nicely! And is looking really good.  I really like him.



[/SIZE]

Here's a thought, for those that use sliding sidereins. The ones I have made are extremely lightweight. I like the look of the ones Leia has shown because they are still in effect even if they were looser then needed. With the ones I have they have to be quite snug or he can't feel it. Just wondering if 1. this makes any sense; and 2. if anyone thinks that could be one of the things not clicking right now.


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## Kendra (Jan 25, 2010)

BannerBrat said:


> It's kind of hard to see in the after picture you posted, because of the gorgeous ribbons!
> 
> 
> 
> But he looks to have made considerable progress, how long ago was the first picture taken? I think he moves very nicely! And is looking really good.  I really like him.


Doing the math ... The first picture was taken not quite 3 years ago.


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## drivin*me*buggy (Jan 25, 2010)

I will jump in with my Buck first. He is almost 4 yrs old. He is 33.75" tall. I got him as a 9 month old, we started ground driving at 18 months. Last April he turned three and my goal for the summer was to get him hitched and add a chapter to this driving journey, no hard work- just starting to build some muscle. We are always working on moving the saddle back- lol- as he is a bit round.

Here he is the first time hitched and with me in the cart:






Here he is a few weeks later:






And from this fall- after working all summer:











and the pix from our most recent drive early winter, going slightly downhill:






Although he is still heavy on the forehand, I can start to ever so slightly shift that weight back. I am wanting to start doing more lungeing, ground driving and inhand work in the round pen while we wait for spring and good footing.

Next I have Wish. She is 5 1/2 yrs old and 34". I have only had her about 8 months. She is a very nice mover that I hope to capture in harness as we go forward.

Here she is first hitched:






After some more time in harness:






And one of our last drives before the weather got muddy/icy, she was getting better after every drive. Stretching better here...We still have a way to go, but that is part of the journey.

I really look forward to trying a lot of the suggestions here w/ both my horses





Angie


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 25, 2010)

susanne said:


> Here's a older, less-muscled halter shot of him. He's ridiculously overstretched and his head looks clunky, but conformationally this looks most like the boy I know.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You can see the slight ewe in his neck quite well in this photo although he IS obviously overreaching with his neck



but you can also see the lovely slim throatlatch that he has and how nice and high his neck ties in. He does have a wonderful heartgirth which provides plenty of room for lungs and the work he has been getting has obviously been good for his back end which is more muscular now than it was in this photo. You could see how well he gets his hind end under himself in the earlier photos and that is what makes me say he is a real powerhouse because he is getting all that reach even though he isn't making his job as easy as it could be - imagine what he is *going* to be like!!!

For showing at halter I would suggest not taking his head up quite so high, emphasizing the ewe.



Correct driving is going to be very good for this boy as it will improve the look of his neck. It may well be that he is not truly ewe necked but rather has just overdeveloped the muscle there from incorrect carriage as there really doesn't appear to be a dip in the top of his neck in this photo.

For driving I would make good use of a set of sliding side reins as you have admitted you don't really know what you need to do with your hands BUT you do need to take a little more contact even with the auxilliary reins in place. I would put them on fairly tight and low to begin with and if he has never worn them try them on him loose in the round pen first. If he plain and simple does NOT listen to the sliding side reins I would put a chambon on and turn him lose till he learns that he can move forward with his head down on his own. Once he is moving forward in the chambon on his own I would take a lunge whip and ask him to move out freely which will of course make him want to lift his head again and may cause him to fight the chambon so be careful but he will settle into it as he already knows that he can move forward with his head down. Work him for a short period of time in both directions and then harness him with the sliding side reins (which by the way I ALWAYS allow time free in the round pen with them for the horse to accustom himself to them FIRST) and see if he gets it.

I prefer to stay away as much as I can from gadgets when training a horse too but here are times when they can really help progress a horse along that is just not getting it and you really can't do a great deal of hill work with a horse in harness that has not had a lot of time in harness. You can work them on hills in the long lines but then as soon as you put them in the shafts they will revert with the added weight. I don't like stiff "gadgets" that FORCE a horse to put his head where we want it and holds it there by force but prefer to use things like a chambon or sliding side rein that allows the horse to find a comfort zone on his own.

Yes an 80 x 80 foot area is certainly large enough even for a B Mini to work in without making any corners.


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## jleonard (Jan 26, 2010)

Just spent a hour typing up a response, only to have the site log me out when I went to post, grrr, so lets try again...

I broke Suzy as a 3 year old, she's now eleven. We've learned togeather and did not work on fine tuning until about three years ago, but other commitments have kept me from getting as far as I'd like with her. We are working on her stretching down as she likes to go around with her head in the air. She drove in a halter for years because she hated bits, but I finally tried a butterfly french link which she loves. She is still learning to accept contact and trust the bit. Like Myrna said earlier, I am working now on just getting her head to come down, and once she is comfortable with her head lower, I will worry about bringing her up off the forehand and into a more advanced frame.

Conformation shots

2006?






2009






National Drive 2008






Trying out the Hyperbike for the first time in Fall 2008











Early spring 2009 with a friend driving her for the first time






National Drive 2009 - she'd been having ulcer issues and was thin, especially over her topline. Since then she lost more weight and I'm still trying to get her to gain. It will be a long time until she has enough muscle to ask her to do much of anything










Then there is Locita. I broke her in 2003, but never had much time. I'd get her to the point of hitching once or twice a year, then get busy. This is the first year that I have had time to consistently work with her, and I have been very pleasently surprised. She is a totally different horse when she is fit from what she used to be.

Conformation (she is my little quarter horse



)






Longlining in 2003 (she was a nose dragger/ grass grabber, hence the overcheck)






Early spring 2009, one of her first times out on the road






Early summer 2009






No individual photos of her at the National Drive last year, but here they are as the tandem. I think you can see how much she's relaxed in the cart.











Big trot!






Thanks to Larry Porter for all of the National Drive pics!!


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 26, 2010)

[SIZE=12pt]Hi Lori, glad you've replied.  I hope you don't mind if I pick your brain.




[/SIZE]

That's one reason that I've avoided fixed side reins, is that their fixed and really even with elastic they don't move. But my Mom has used them with her horses, I think she likes them.

And I don't rule them out completely, I just haven't used them yet. When you lunge with sliding side reins do you keep them the same length? or switch them with the inside one a little tighter?

The whole point of sliding side reins is that they slide



I use a piece of nylon rope as it slips nicely through the rings. I tie it to one ring on the side of the surcingle (I usually start fairly low to begin with and work my way up as the horse improves) then through the bit on one side, down between his front legs to a ring on the girth, up to the bit on the other side and tie it to the other side of the surcingle. This allows the whole thing to slide through no matter where the horse has his head. I start by making sure they are even but as he works himself on a circle he will gradually shorten the inside rein as he bends around the circle. When he changes direction the rein will slide through and again shorten on the inside on its own basically. They need to be adjusted loose enough that they can slide but firm enough to start that they will do the job of showing him what you want. Once he gets the hang of it you can loosen them further. 

[SIZE=12pt]Could you explain more about what you see in Banner's conformation. I've always felt that he isn't built to work correctly, but I honestly can't pinpoint it. So if you have the time I'd love for you to explain more.



[/SIZE]

He does drop his head and work very nicely sometimes, but I have yet to get a picture of it. (of course



)

And thank you for all your other suggestions, these are all points that I am working on and keep in my head while driving.  He actually moves quite straight when driving, and he seems to work best when we are actually doing something driving, like weaving through a dozen trees we have on the property and doing transitions through them. Stuff that makes him think there is actually a reason for all my madness.



But I do try to kind of vary it up to give both of us a break.

First let me tell you that my favorite driving horse has some of the same conformational flaws that Banner exhibits so I in no way saying I don't like your boy



And he certainly has some very good qualities that will make him a wonderful driving horse, the most important one is that he is naturally straighter by far then Mingus and shows a natural tendency to bend correctly. I think he is going to be an athlete. He loses that when you put him in the shafts but it is there and so you know you can bring it out with the right work. 

Anyway here goes: His head is a bit on the large size which is quite typical of many Minis. He has quite a ewed neck (and this is his biggest fault that he has to overcome for driving) which ties in a bit low. His throatlatch is a bit on the thick side, his neck is not a great deal slimmer at the throatlatch than it is at his shoulder. All of this makes it a bit more difficult for him to get his head down where we want it to start and he will never be able to use it as well as a horse with better construction could. He has a dip both in front of the withers and behind which will make it a bit more difficult for him to use his back. He has a steep shoulder but the good thing is that he also has a steep croup to match which will help prevent stress injuries that would occur if the angles weren't matching. That steep croup will allow him to get his back end under himself a little easier but combined with his somewhat weak stifle and hock construction you are going to need to be careful not to overstress his joints. All that being said I do see good potential in this horse, he is just going to need more careful conditioning than some.



MiLo Minis said:


> That has been what I have seen with the use of fixed side reins. Horses get stiff through the jaw and neck with excessive use of them. Yes his head might be in the right position but you don't get that free flow of energy and rounding through the back because there is tenseness there. If I am having trouble with a horse figuring out the sliding reins I will put them on, as I said, a bit overtight and more so on the inside to basically overflex his neck and turn him loose in the round pen for a short period of time - first on one side, then the other. I find then that when I go back to work with the sliding side reins they give to the soft massaging feel a lot quicker. I use them strictly as a teaching tool when needed. I do use a full cheek with them on to prevent the bit pulling through.[SIZE=12pt]I'm thinking maybe this would help my boy... I'm sure doing this would create quite a reaction.
> 
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## susanne (Jan 26, 2010)

Thanks, Lori -- I have worked Mingus in sliding side reins (I mentioned this earlier, but I think it's gotten lost in all of the posts and cross posts). He does very well in them, dropping his head willingly and finding a better balance. However, I've done him a disservice by not doing this enough, as he loses all of this once hitched, so a major immediate goal is to do exactly as you've suggested, frequently enough that he remembers and puts it to use when hitched.

I have been working on driving with soft, flexible contact...I had virtually no contact in the photos posted; at first Mingus acted insulted by the contact, but he's adjusting nicely.

I should probably mention that I've practically memorized Heike Bean and everything else I can get my hands on -- but it's one thing to know intellectually what I should do, and a whole 'nothing thing to put it in practice. This is the disconnect in which Mingus and I work...


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 26, 2010)

susanne said:


> Thanks, Lori -- I have worked Mingus in sliding side reins (I mentioned this earlier, but I think it's gotten lost in all of the posts and cross posts). He does very well in them, dropping his head willingly and finding a better balance. However, I've done him a disservice by not doing this enough, as he loses all of this once hitched, so a major immediate goal is to do exactly as you've suggested, frequently enough that he remembers and puts it to use when hitched.
> I have been working on driving with soft, flexible contact...I had virtually no contact in the photos posted; at first Mingus acted insulted by the contact, but he's adjusting nicely.
> 
> I should probably mention that I've practically memorized Heike Bean and everything else I can get my hands on -- but it's one thing to know intellectually what I should do, and a whole 'nothing thing to put it in practice. This is the disconnect in which Mingus and I work...


The thing to remember is that when you are working in a small area or ring where you are constantly turning, rather than say out on the road or trail where you go straight for miles, your hands are virtually NEVER still. You have to be constantly GENTLY working on his mouth asking him to bend and give and turn. Coming into every change of direction or corner you are giving a half halt to let him know something is coming up, asking for bend with a pulse from your inside hand and supporting him with your outside hand holding the amount of turn, on the straightaways your hands can be quite a bit quieter but you are still asking him to drop his nose, round his back and get his back end under himself with gentle alternating pulses and small half halts to get him back on his haunches. It is hard to do this at first because you are also thinking of your own position, holding up a whip and watching where you are going. That is why it is always easier for a green driver to learn on a well experienced horse. The experienced horse will do exactly what you are telling him to do - right OR wrong!



You can quickly and easily KNOW whether you are using the right technique. A green horse who doesn't really understand what you are asking for is difficult because you never know for sure if you are asking correctly because you may not be getting exactly what you are asking for anyway. It is also easier to learn when you have someone in the middle of the ring constantly harping on you to keep that contact, give those half halts, ask for that nose to tip.......



If you are on your own where you live then you need to do the harping to yourself. From the sound of it you have educated yourself to know what you need to do. Don't get frustrated if at first you aren't getting the response you want - it takes time! Just keep working at it and it will come. Constant use of the sliding side rein at this point will give you quicker results.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 26, 2010)

Susanne, you are NOT being fair to Mingus with that photo!





Here are some I took in 2006, not that much later than your photos and long before he was driving.











Bascule, sort of:






Mingus excited in-hand (see what he does with his neck?)






At the ocean in 2008:






Mingus has a NICE butt!










Head down grazing:






One of the primary reasons I disagree that Mingus is ewe-necked is the lack of the tell-tale dip in front of the withers. The Horse Conformation Handbook by Heather Smith Thomas says, "The ewe-necked horse has an 'upside down' neck; the topline is concave rather than arched, and the head usually forms a right angle to the neck at the throat instead of a curved arch. There is a downward dip in the neck, ahead of the withers, and the muscles at the bottom surface of the neck are thicker. ... If the lower curve of the [vertebral] S is too deep and wide (no matter what the size and shape of the upper curve), the horse has a ewe neck, with a hollow ahead of the withers. Many horses with this neck configuration also have an upright shoulder; the upright shoulder and the long lower curve of the neck tend to go together." Dr. Deb Bennett's Principles of Conformation Analysis, Volume II, gets a little more specific and says, "Ewe-necked horses are usually defined as those possessing a 'sunken' or 'upside-down' crest, but the ewe-necked condition goes deeper than that, back to the bones. When the lower curve is deep and wide -- no matter what the size and shape of the upper curve may be -- the horse has the bone structure for ewe neck. ... Like Horse #1, both Horse #2 and this subject show a prolonged 'dip' in front of the withers, a telltale sign of a wide and deep lower S curve. ... In a ewe-necked individual, the upper curve of the S-shaped chain of neck vertebrae is short, while the lower curve is broad and deep. ... In an arched neck, the lower curve of the S is relatively shallow." She goes on to say that it is easier for a horse with an arched neck to contract the scalenus muscles and raise the root of the neck in a telescoping gesture than it is for a ewe-necked horse who must raise a much deeper curve.

Now I do think that both Kody and Mingus have a deeper lower curve than is desirable and it does affect how they carry themselves when driving, but Mingus lacks the dip in front of his withers and is easily able to telescope (or at least arch) his neck in these photos, something a truly ewe-necked horse could not do. He does have a definite over-development of the underline muscles which gives that unattractive bulge any time except when he's actively flexing and it's going to take a LOT of correct work to make that go away. This is Kody when I first got him (and lord I hate posting unattractive photos of him



):

http://inlinethumb49.webshots.com/45360/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

http://inlinethumb22.webshots.com/45973/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

But despite that very bottom-heavy look, this is him the same day making the telescoping gesture.

http://inlinethumb20.webshots.com/45011/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

And reaching without telescoping. No dip in front of the withers, bone structure is capable of arching nicely and he's got a nice long open throatlatch area that can "hook."

http://inlinethumb63.webshots.com/28414/11...S600x600Q85.jpg

You can see that he's got a triangular wedge of strongly-developed muscle at the bottom of his neck around the windpipe and point of the shoulder however. A few years later, that layer of muscle had virtually vanished.











Unfortunately the really good photos I have of that are not online right now.





I'm going off on the ewe-necked thing here because I see that term tossed around a lot for horses who really aren't and I find it frustrating. So much of what we see with the minis is postural, and poor habitual muscling that makes the lower neck bulge and look thick! That isn't pure bone structure though and a horse with that problem (while never as attractive or easy to train as one built correctly to start with) can certainly learn to collect and be capable of the neck-telescoping gesture far more easily than a truly ewe-necked animal. There is no mistaking a ewe-necked, hammer-headed horse. They look like a vulture with that low-slung neck and big divot in front of the withers in all but the most correct work.





(Lori, please don't think this or any of my rants are personal. I've seen the term come up on the forum quite a bit recently and it finally seemed worth the time to discuss it.



)

Let's see, other points that have come up in the last few posts. I'm not sure I agree about tightening the sliding sidereins quite a bit to start with and then loosening them as that's not the usage I've seen recommended but am willing to be overruled as Lori has worked far, far more horses than I. I do agree with Myrna for the most part that horses will get the idea easier when actually DOING something they can see and understand but I can also see where trying to write about this might cause some confusion and MiLo is carefully clarifying some points that do need considering. Always work within the horse's comfort zone and if they aren't relaxed and enthusiastic about the activity, go back a few steps until they get it. I feel there should not BE any tension about new equipment if introduced properly- uncertainty, sure, but not tension that must be worked out. The process of trying out new tack should be a collaboration between trainer and equine, a game that they play together and is positive for the horse. That's why I prefer to start with the sidereins loose until the horse begins to realize they are leading him downwards then tighten them incrementally as he builds muscle and understanding of how to carry himself.

Jessica, three days of Locita having her rump driven off around the Horse Park by yours truly might have had something to do with her "relaxation" that day as well!



I had so much fun putting that tandem together it was ridiculous. Observers may notice that Suzy (the leader) has sliding side reins on in those photos- she was being a complete and total BRAT that morning and resisting every hint of contact so we put the sidereins on to remind her of how to round up. They were a bit too loose but kept her from flipping totally upside down and it seemed easier to leave them on for our drive as I had my hands full just directing the girls, nevermind fighting to keep my leader from inverting and over-reacting.



Suzy has made huge strides since I first met her and Jessica at the National Drive 2007. I'm so proud of those photos of her reaching forward at the walk!





Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way.

Buck and Wish both appear to be lovely, safe, happy, well-started horses who have benefitted from a solid foundation and a driver who takes her time. I think the biggest thing they both need (and Banner too) is for their driver to ask more of them!



I spent years at that level with Kody, thinking we were doing great, and then I got some lessons with a good dressage trainer who insisted (cheerfully and reasonably, with respect for the horse's comfort and ability) that I start asking for more. I was amazed how fast we progressed and how much he was capable of! We learned more in a year with her than we had in the previous three of clinicians telling us we were doing fine and to continue as we had been. Kody enjoyed the challenge. He loved it. His musculature developed rapidly and he was excited by the additional amount of power he was able to produce and was always eager to be hitched. Once a solid foundation has been laid for the actual cart work and the grown horse understands all the basics and is comfortable with his job, the time to "let them adjust" and to treat them like they're fragile babies is OVER!



Your particular horses are ready. Yes, it takes years to develop a finished dressage horse. But each year there should be visible muscular changes and improvement in the horse's carriage and honestly, yours appear to remain the same from photo to photo. The green horses clearly develop better strength and confidence in the cart (which is great!) but their posture remains the same over time just like Banner's has. Now obviously for first-year horses like Wish and Buck that's all you can reasonably expect, but next year they ought to start progressing into a more established training level frame and learning to use themselves. You guys are such good careful drivers!



I just want to see you take more contact and a more forward role in guiding your horses' progress. It would not matter if you were only interested in trail driving them but if you want to work on dressage then they need to learn to go more on their hindquarters and through their toplines. If you can't get lessons with a professional carriage driver in your area then just approach it with an attitude of play and softly experiment with the reins. See what your horses do! As long as you keep your own body relaxed and centered the horses will follow in kind; the worst they'll be is temporarily confused if you miscommunicate. Where you run into problems is when people try to grab the horse's mouth and force him into a shorter frame without any cooperation from the horse...it's the completely uncaring and aggressive attitude that causes reactive tension and unhappiness in the horse. As long as you are respectfully experimenting together in a safe way you can do little lasting harm to his training.





Leia


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## jleonard (Jan 26, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Jessica, three days of Locita having her rump driven off around the Horse Park by yours truly might have had something to do with her "relaxation" that day as well!



Leia, this was actually something that I had in my first post that got deleted, but I was tired and frusterated writing the second one and forgot to add it. I was shocked when I saw her after three days and she was a different horse. Who knew that just three days with someone who actually knows how to make them work properly could have such a huge effect!





BTW, the more I see of Mingus, the more I like him





I have a picture of a truely ewe necked horse that I can scan in if anyone would like to see it.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 26, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> (Lori, please don't think this or any of my rants are personal. I've seen the term come up on the forum quite a bit recently and it finally seemed worth the time to discuss it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Don't worry Leia - I don't take it personal as I myself said that I didn't feel Mingus was truly ewe necked as I didn't see the dip in front of his withers or top of his neck on the better conformation shot that Suzanne posted, and felt that the bulge on the underside of his neck was likely caused by incorrect driving over a period of time.

After your very good indepth discussion on ewe necks it should be mentioned that with some horses that have very cresty necks it can be hard to physically see that they are ewe necked - it is not always obvious that the actual bone structure is upside down as the dip is hidden by the crestiness.

I know exactly what a ewe neck truly is and all the technical terms associated but I speak in plainer language so that other's reading won't have to take 10 minutes to work out what I said. eg. YOU - Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way. ME - he has a thick throatlatch, slightly ewed neck and is somewhat hammerheaded (head attaches to neck at a 90 degree angle instead of being more open) which makes it hard for him to tuck and use his neck. He is going to need correct work to get him dropping his head.

We agree - It's just a difference in ways of speaking.

You and I work with horses from different perspectives. As a trainer I don't have the luxury of years to invest and I also can't afford to HAVE to work through physical or mental issues caused by introducing anything such as cones or hills before their time. There are lots of horses out there of all sizes that will be quite accepting of just about anything but there are also those that will not be and you don't ALWAYS know ahead of time what is going to upset a horse. I work on a trust basis - I promise them I won't get them into anything that might get them unnecessarily upset or hurt and I always give them the opportunity to learn on their own which is ALWAYS more successful than me trying to force something on them even if I were to do it gradually. That being said I also do attempt at some point to find their breaking point because I need to know before I send them home to their owners how they are going to react as it is not possible for me to introduce them to EVERYTHING that might freak them out and they and their owners need to know how to deal with it.

To clarify adjusting your sliding side reins: When I say tight this is how I adjust them - so that he is required, when standing still with his head held naturally, to give with his nose or jaw so that when he begins to move he will feel them working on his mouth. IF you start him working and find that he is still going around with his nose in the air you can even pull him behind the vertical, turn him loose and let him learn that all he has to do is give and he will find comfort. This is not in the least bit cruel as any horse can touch his nose to his chest if he wants to and it is only going to be for however long it takes him to figure it out. Then you loosen them back off to a point where he just has to give slightly when standing still.


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## jegray21 (Jan 26, 2010)

we need to start analyzing short video clips! Then we can watch the movement..


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## RhineStone (Jan 26, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> My comments in blue below.
> 
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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 26, 2010)

Jessica- I didn't mean that having an experience driver did it, just that she was worn out by that point! *LOL*

Jegray...um, actually I have video too.



LB "Beach Drivers" video 2008 You'll recognize Mingus from the pictures and the little spindly red-head is my Kody. He was absolutely full of it that morning! I gave up and let him run in order to put the new Frontier through its paces.



MiLo Minis said:


> I know exactly what a ewe neck truly is and all the technical terms associated but I speak in plainer language so that other's reading won't have to take 10 minutes to work out what I said. eg. YOU - Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way. ME - he has a thick throatlatch, slightly ewed neck and is somewhat hammerheaded (head attaches to neck at a 90 degree angle instead of being more open) which makes it hard for him to tuck and use his neck. He is going to need correct work to get him dropping his head.
> We agree - It's just a difference in ways of speaking.


Plain English is a very good thing.



I try to make sure I do that in harness discussions but since you'd already given her the short version I figured it wouldn't do any harm to go into a bit more detail. The worst that happens is that someone asks a question and we all get to discuss and maybe learn new things.



Ashley has gotten into technical discussions with me before and I know (or believe at least) that she enjoys them so I didn't hold back with her like I might have with a different poster.



MiLo Minis said:


> You and I work with horses from different perspectives. As a trainer I don't have the luxury of years to invest and I also can't afford to HAVE to work through physical or mental issues caused by introducing anything such as cones or hills before their time. There are lots of horses out there of all sizes that will be quite accepting of just about anything but there are also those that will not be and you don't ALWAYS know ahead of time what is going to upset a horse. *I work on a trust basis - I promise them I won't get them into anything that might get them unnecessarily upset or hurt and I always give them the opportunity to learn on their own which is ALWAYS more successful than me trying to force something on them even if I were to do it gradually.*
> 
> 
> 
> That being said I also do attempt at some point to find their breaking point because I need to know before I send them home to their owners how they are going to react as it is not possible for me to introduce them to EVERYTHING that might freak them out and they and their owners need to know how to deal with it.


You are an excellent trainer, hon, the happy and correct horses you produce proclaim that loud and clear.



You are right that it's a very different perspective and one I find valuable to have here on the forum. I did not mean to say my way was better, only to represent another method of approaching it as many of our other posters are "home-schooling" too.



MiLo Minis said:


> To clarify adjusting your sliding side reins: *When I say tight this is how I adjust them - so that he is required, when standing still with his head held naturally, to give with his nose or jaw so that when he begins to move he will feel them working on his mouth.* IF you start him working and find that he is still going around with his nose in the air you can even pull him behind the vertical, turn him loose and let him learn that all he has to do is give and he will find comfort. This is not in the least bit cruel as any horse can touch his nose to his chest if he wants to and it is only going to be for however long it takes him to figure it out. Then you loosen them back off to a point where he just has to give slightly when standing still.


I wouldn't consider that "tight."



The sidereins _should_ be adjusted so that the horse feels them working- that's what they're for. "Tight" is when the horse is forced to go behind the vertical to find relief and that's the part I wasn't comfortable with. It makes me think of Rollkur.



Most of the horses I've worked with are built to overflex and go behind the bit so to me the idea of purposely pulling them behind the vertical even for a short time is counter-productive. They don't learn to use the right muscles, they evade and put their noses to their chests and do other stupid things. Ewww....

For horses like Banner and Mingus and Hawk that prefer to stargaze stubbornly when moving it might be a whole different ballgame. I admit freely I don't have enough experience with that kind of horse to know but I'm concerned, as Myrna expressed, that novices may try their own version of "tight" without knowing what they are doing and make things worse.

Thanks for the good discussions Lori, I really am enjoying this!



It's so fun to get in-depth on this stuff with fellow enthusiasts. Anyone else want to chime in on the subject?

Leia


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## susanne (Jan 26, 2010)

I have to say this is one of the all-time great discussions on LB.

Thanks, Leia -- nothing like starting my day with that warm, fuzzy feeling (I know, I got up late...).

I do know, of course, that the image I posted is hardly the ideal photo of Mingus. Having limited photos of him, I generally select those that show specific attributes (and attitude, lol...). I really should dig out my old 35mm and get my own photos, going for the old, reliable approach of quantity equalling quality.

In regards to jargon vs plainspeak: as a writer, editor and inveterate word maven, I vote for in-depth yet clear language, simply stated yet never "dumbed-down." In other words, simplify structure but never the ideas. Any subject matter is accessible to any level of student so long as it is clearly written. Never think that the "newbie" cannot absorb more advanced ideas -- they may not be applicable just yet, but will be stored away and recalled when relevant and understandable.

(As a gardening junkie, I always laugh at articles and books aimed at beginning gardeners. The "seasoned veterans" approach the subject matter as if it were rocket science, as if they dare not tackle substantive issues and risk putting dangerous ideas in the minds of the innocent.)


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 26, 2010)

susanne said:


> I have to say this is one of the all-time great discussions on LB.
> I agree. I have to say it is really nice to be able to state your ideas and opinions without anyone taking unmeant offense or going off like a rocket!
> 
> 
> ...


I'm just used to talking to students and clients who, not having the benefit of the written word - just my voice - need short clear explanations, so that is the way I talk. Certainly don't intend to "dumb" anything down, just be clear. No rocket science here.


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## BannerBrat (Jan 26, 2010)

[SIZE=12pt]Jessica, I love both your mares! They both look like really great driving horses. Locita sure can move out, wow! No real suggestions, just wanted to say I think they look really nice. [/SIZE]



> The whole point of sliding side reins is that they slide I use a piece of nylon rope as it slips nicely through the rings. I tie it to one ring on the side of the surcingle (I usually start fairly low to begin with and work my way up as the horse improves) then through the bit on one side, down between his front legs to a ring on the girth, up to the bit on the other side and tie it to the other side of the surcingle. This allows the whole thing to slide through no matter where the horse has his head. I start by making sure they are even but as he works himself on a circle he will gradually shorten the inside rein as he bends around the circle. When he changes direction the rein will slide through and again shorten on the inside on its own basically. They need to be adjusted loose enough that they can slide but firm enough to start that they will do the job of showing him what you want. Once he gets the hang of it you can loosen them further.


[SIZE=12pt]Thank you Lori, I knew there was a key part missing in my set up. That ring on the girth will help things a lot! And thank you for the other advice on getting started with them. [/SIZE]



> First let me tell you that my favorite driving horse has some of the same conformational flaws that Banner exhibits so I in no way saying I don't like your boy And he certainly has some very good qualities that will make him a wonderful driving horse, the most important one is that he is naturally straighter by far then Mingus and shows a natural tendency to bend correctly. I think he is going to be an athlete. He loses that when you put him in the shafts but it is there and so you know you can bring it out with the right work.
> Anyway here goes: His head is a bit on the large size which is quite typical of many Minis. He has quite a ewed neck (and this is his biggest fault that he has to overcome for driving) which ties in a bit low. His throatlatch is a bit on the thick side, his neck is not a great deal slimmer at the throatlatch than it is at his shoulder. All of this makes it a bit more difficult for him to get his head down where we want it to start and he will never be able to use it as well as a horse with better construction could. He has a dip both in front of the withers and behind which will make it a bit more difficult for him to use his back. He has a steep shoulder but the good thing is that he also has a steep croup to match which will help prevent stress injuries that would occur if the angles weren't matching. That steep croup will allow him to get his back end under himself a little easier but combined with his somewhat weak stifle and hock construction you are going to need to be careful not to overstress his joints. All that being said I do see good potential in this horse, he is just going to need more careful conditioning than some.


[SIZE=12pt]Please don’t worry about offending me by being honest about Banner. He means a lot to me, but I know you aren’t attacking him.  [/SIZE]

I know to overcome his conformation I need to know about it, what you typed up is great. I really see what you mean. Looking at the first picture driving to the more current ones, it looks like whatever I’ve been doing has been making these flaws worse; bleh.

As far as his backend is there anything I should avoid with him? I figure as he uses his body better that will help him. I am careful when I condition, and he’s been in good condition now for a few months., of course he’s been carrying himself poorly so we’ve got a lot of careful rebuilding to do.



> NEVER put any auxilliary piece of equipment on a horse without allowing him to check it out on his own loose in the round pen first. This includes blinders, breeching and any sort of extra rein. Some back haphazardly, some rear, buck or kick, some run madly. Turn him loose and let him get the kinks worked out with you out of the way. Once he is comfortable with it then you can go in and work with him and then take them to the cart with you. I really don't think your boy needs a fixed side rein, he bends too nicely on his own.
> I do think he would benefit from sliding side reins as I can see from your loose contact in all your photos that you really are afraid of taking contact with this horse. He NEEDS that support from your hands which, until you are more educated with your hands, the sliding side reins will help provide but you do need to take up your contact even when using them. The reins should come straight from his mouth to your hands - not taut so that you could strum a tune on them but slightly elasticy and giving, they should kind of just wave up and down slightly over the length of them with his movement. You will need to be careful to follow his head down when he offers to do so keeping the same contact all the way through.


[SIZE=12pt]Thank you Lori, I didn’t mean to imply I was just going to throw any piece of new equipment on him and go, I do know better than that. Sorry about that. I will work on better and more educated contact as well.[/SIZE]



> Even when adjusted fairly loose the sliding side reins will still gently massage the horse's mouth and have some effect (think of the western pleasure horse and how loose their reins are) but you do need to start with them more tightly adjusted. Once your horse is working well they will just be hanging there and not really having any affect. Mine are made of 1/4" nylon rope which is VERY light and they work just fine.


[SIZE=12pt]That’s what I was thinking, is that I probably need to snug them up. But I was just wondering if the weight of the weight effects anything.[/SIZE]



> Ashley, as far as Banner's conformation I think his biggest problem is that the upper curve of his cervical vertebrae appears to be pretty short. He isn't able to easily "hook" his neck because he's got a closed angle there already and too much fleshy material in the way of his windpipe when he tries to bring his head on the vertical without first lifting the root of his neck properly. He can certainly collect, but for him it depends very strongly on his ability to engage the scalenus muscles from the withers to the lower cervical vertebrae and right now his are very weak. He MUST learn to do that before he will be able to come onto the vertical in anything other than a peanut-roller western style as the only way he's going to be able to open his throatlatch is by making the neck-telescoping gesture. He's simply not built to do it any other way.



[SIZE=12pt]Thanks Leia, that really helps. I can feel these things when I’m working with him. I just can’t pin-point it like you can. I do understand that both he and I have a lot of work to do. [/SIZE]

Lori in your post, #46, I just wanted to let you know I really appreciate both of your replies and it really helps to see it discussed different ways.

Also the same with Myrna’s post, # 48. 

I sure am happy about how nice this post is going!


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## susanne (Jan 26, 2010)

I think we should all take an oath promising not to get offended at honest, well-intended criticism. Too often I've seen great feedback met with resentment and those who wish to share their knowledge become cautious about speaking up. With that, we lose the value of such a forum.

Meaningless compliments are just that -- meaningless. Give me that honest response anyday. Even if it makes me gulp for a moment, better that I open my eyes than go on in a bubble of ignorance.

So, here's my vow:

I, susanne, hereby promise never to take offense at honest criticism and never to suggest that I expect unwarranted praise or compliments. I love all of my horses without reserve, even as I accept their need for improvement. I seek constant improvement from myself as well and realize that this cannot happen without the honesty of others.

And, as one with an oftimes ascerbic tongue, please know that I never intend to hurt anyone, and that my jibes are more often aimed at myself than at others.

Just as a warning, however, I cannot promise the same from Keith. In his eyes, his wife and his horses (not necessarily in that order) are infallible.


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## RhineStone (Jan 26, 2010)

You all have said so much here, that I am REALLY far behind on reading it all. I just have responded where I happen to see my name! Maybe tomorrow I'll be able to catch all the good things you have said!

Myrna


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 26, 2010)

BannerBrat said:


> [SIZE=12pt]Please don’t worry about offending me by being honest about Banner. He means a lot to me, but I know you aren’t attacking him.  [/SIZE]
> I know to overcome his conformation I need to know about it, what you typed up is great. I really see what you mean. Looking at the first picture driving to the more current ones, it looks like whatever I’ve been doing has been making these flaws worse; bleh.
> 
> As far as his backend is there anything I should avoid with him? I figure as he uses his body better that will help him. I am careful when I condition, and he’s been in good condition now for a few months., of course he’s been carrying himself poorly so we’ve got a lot of careful rebuilding to do.
> ...


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## angelspeeper (Jan 27, 2010)

WOW!!!! What an insightful discussion!!!

I'm new to driving. My horse has been with a trainer since November, but unfortunately finances dictate that he must come home.



If I could I would leave him with the trainer, but that's not the case. Now I feel more confident about continuing on at home...knowing there is such a great group ready to help me work out the inevitable kinks!

Thanks for such an interesting post. Even though I'm a "green" driver I learned a lot for use in the future. Keep these kinds of posts coming!!! What's even better was there wasn't a forest fire started by people flaming each other!


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## RhineStone (Jan 27, 2010)

Leia, that video was VERY insightful. I think I figured out what is really going on here with a number of you all's horses. It's something I take for granted, because I seemed to have developed a good set all the way along. I don't know how. For years, both riding and driving judges have complemented me on my *hands*.

This is what I saw in the video. Susanne, I'm going to "pick on you", because you were the only one I saw "in motion" other than Leia



. The rest are photos. When you first ask Mingus to "walk on", your hands remain static in the location that you left them before you asked for the cue. When I ask my horses to walk on, I always "give" the reins just a little with my elbow, so that when the horse starts that vehicle, they can get their head down a bit to "break it loose". What Mingus gets instead is resistance in the mouth, and therefore he has learned to pull that cart without dropping his head. My guess is that he is a very forward horse, that you always feel that you have to hold him back. So, he has learned to go forward, but without relaxation, protecting his bars of his mouth from hard pressure.

A little about hand and arm position: in the "neutral position" your elbow should be just slightly in front of your waistband. I like to tell my students that I want to put a rubber band around their elbow and attach it to their waistband. Your elbow should be well bent. Susanne, I see your arms being a little straight. Your hands should be about the same width as they are on your keyboard (on a regular keyboard, not a little, bitty laptop) if holding one rein in each hand. Your hands should be slightly above your elbow (this is not the case for riding). The backs of your hands should be at the same angle as the horse's withers. I tell my students to look at the harness saddle, and try to match that. Your whip should be "within the frame of the vehicle". If you drew a rectangle all the way around the vehicle, the lash of the whip should not be outside that. I like to hold mine at a 45 in two ways, both horizontally and vertically. (Does that make sense?) Then the hand w/o the whip (usually left) should "mirror" the right. Now, that all being said, remember that is the neutral position. You may have to move your hands back and forth depending upon the action that you are asking your horse to do. God gave you elbows so you could drive horses!



(God gave you hips and knees so you could ride them!) Use the elbows God gave you like "shock absorbers" for your horse's mouth.

Here is another observation. At the end of the video, Mingus has relaxed and dropped his head. So has Susanne. Mingus is probably tired, and therefore Susanne doesn't feel like she has to "hold" him. This is a GREAT frame! There is no resistance from Susanne's hands, and Mingus is finally feeling calm, "Thank you. You let go of my face!!!"

Ok, so how do you deal with that? Since I have seemed to have an "innate" sense of how much rein since I was a 4-Her, I will explain the technique that Jeff Morse demonstrated at the Midwest Horse Fair last year. He has three rules for this exercise (if I am remembering correctly): the horse must go forward, he must look to the inside of the circle, and he can have as much rein as he wants. Jeff started out two basically recreational driving horses, one Standardbred and one Morab, on a 20 meter circle. The Morab seemed tense and stiff in the neck before the exercise, much like some of your horses. At the end, they were putting their heads down, bending properly, and ready to move into a trot calmly. They went round and round, but maintaining the above rules. (It was actually a little boring for me, but I can see where it would help a novice driver learn how much rein is necessary, and teach the horse to hold themselves up.)

Does this sound like anyone here?: _"My horse wiggles when I harness him. He might wait a little while we put him to, but when I get in the cart, he is all go, and doesn't want to stand still. I constantly feel like I have to hold him back, even though he is not running away. Eventually, he gets tired, and then he is more fun to drive, or he is fun when we have a big open space and don't have to go slow." _

Changing this behavior all starts with you being a "parent". Start when harnessing. He shouldn't be allowed to move a foot. If he does, you put him back. If he does it again, you put him back. Eventually, he WILL get tired of you pulling on him to put him back and he will decide that standing still causes him less pressure on his face than wiggling. When you put to, take your time. Absolutely no rush. Actually, drag it out. Maybe take him out to the cart, and not even put to! Take some of the anticipation out of the process. When you put to, stand there a while, 2-5 minutes. No rush. No wiggling. If he does, put him back. If he won't stand, go back to the last step.

When you finally do ask him to walk on, let your elbow out a little with the rein so that he can reach down with his neck and pull that cart out. As soon as he has broke that cart loose, take up the rein again. There are a number of visualizations that work for holding the reins. Sally Swift in Centered Riding said to hold the reins like baby birds. You don't want to loose your baby birds, but you don't want to squeeze them to death, and you don't want to knock their heads together. Another one for any of you actual parents is to hold the rein like holding a child's hand crossing the street. From the photos, I see some with "wet noodle" hands and fingers, barely holding the reins, and some with very resistant hands. I see the most head up behavior from those horses whose drivers seem to have resistant, unforgiving hands. (Granted, I am making this assumption from a PHOTO. I'd have to see you in person to tell if this is really the case.)

Has anyone milked a cow? This type of squeeze is also very useful for learning half-halts. Using a half halt to slow your horse instead of pulling resistance will soften your horse, too. Hardy Zantke talks about the mistake of holding the reins like holding a cat's tail, "I'm not pulling, the cat is!" Is your horse pulling like the cat? The horse can't pull on you if you half-halt instead of steady pull.

When you hold those reins, think of reaching out with your very long arms to grasp the corners of that horse's mouth. How would you want your mouth grasped? Just a little, like Grandma softly pinching your cheeks, or like the Hulk (dating myself



) ripping your cheek off?

In rereading all of this, it really only scratches the surface. If there is something that you don't understand, it's probably because I need to explain myself better, so please do ask questions. Again, if I am totally off base in my assumptions, please consider that, again, I can't see you in person.

My suggestion for most of you "do it yourselfers", is really work on your hands. Learn all you can about a half halt. Think, "I want to stop, but not really. I want to half stop." The contraptions that are being suggested here are really just taking the place of good hands. It's teaching the horse what to do by using a little bit of pressure, just like good hands.

Myrna


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## Shari (Jan 27, 2010)

Mingus is sooo polite waiting for you to let him go, Susanne. Maggie will wait but she does get impatient and will shake her head to make me hurry up.

Kody is a sports car.. can see him begging you Leia to go faster..... zoommm...

Maggie has a low neck set, as per the way her neck is tied into her shoulders. But she has some wicked tall withers, that due to conformation, makes a dip in front of her withers. Something you would more likely see in a TB.

The under part of her neck is not built up at all. So this issue doesn't always mean they are ewe necked.

In winter coat











Need to take some photos that show her withers better.


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## susanne (Jan 27, 2010)

Thank you, Myrna!

Your observations are quite accurate. At the time this video was shot. Mingus was raring to go, excited by his equine rivals and excited about having room to open up. I was most definitely guilty of getting caught off balance (esp. where I'm using the wooden seat training cart), even though I was the one giving the commands. He would move, I'd fall back... Not making excuses, as I don't feel that that excuse me.

I'm also terrible about wanting to lean forward at fast trot or canter...

Looking at various photos and videos, I am horribly inconsistent in my hand and arm position -- I could definitely use someone to rag on me while we work to keep me in line.

Mingus has a very soft mouth, and in ground-driving we had a fantastic communication between my hands and his mouth -- to the point where I could pretty much think about where I wanted him to go and he would go there. I feel that I've regained a lot of this while in the cart, but I still need to work and become consistent, and I really need to work on hand and arm position. I love your baby bird analogy -- and the keyboard position.

I so appreciate your observations, and I feel like I've just completed a lesson. I don't want to be the one holding Mingus back, and the comments I've received are an enormous help.


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## jegray21 (Jan 27, 2010)

Still trying to absorb all the info...The video was great! I am so jealous that you guys can drive on a beach!

This has been a great discussion.

From watching the video and reading the discussion about Mingus's neck....I just wanted to mention and I am sure most know so sorry if I am stating the obvious here..The wonderful think about the horses neck is that it is all mussel meaning with work and correct contact and thoroughness the horse's neck can completely change it's look.

I would say that Mingus looks like he has a strong under mussel and a week top-line. The dip in front of the whither will fill in when he has lifted his back and built up the the mussel there. A horse who is almost connected but not 100% will have a hallow spot in-front of the whither and a strong under mussel. You can not change the over all conformation of the horse or the location of the neck out of the chest but thick through the throat latch and hallow in front of the whither can definitely be worked on and completely corrected. I am just going to scream back to the basics with the strength of the top-line if you think your horse looks hallow or EWE necked( this is not counting the EXTREME condition of a ewe neck horse).

The horse will only carry himself up and to the bit if he is conditioned to do that. Focus on the correct response to the driving aid meaning when I ask my horse to walk on or trot on he responds by stretching into the bit and lifting the back and pushing forward and the correct response to the half halt meaning the horse sits behind and does not just give in the pole. Too many horses just compress the neck when half halted making the back hallow. When watching the horse in the long lines there should be a clear stomach mussel line and the under mussel in the neck loose. Then you know if your horse is working "Over the back" The picture of Kody in the sliding side reins shows a nice loose trot and good stretch over the back.

From there the half halts in combination with correct amount of contact and driving aid you can shift the weight to the hide end. The horse naturally will want to brace with the new added work load. It takes a long time to develop these mussels. My only argument about side reins or contraptions with a beginner is that it might help steady the connection to the horses mouth until they learn to keep their hands still Not while driving just long lines...I do not imagine side reins and hooked to a cart are a great idea.

Ok thats my two cents for tonight


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## RhineStone (Jan 27, 2010)

susanne said:


> Thank you, Myrna!
> Your observations are quite accurate. At the time this video was shot. Mingus was raring to go, excited by his equine rivals and excited about having room to open up. I was most definitely guilty of getting caught off balance (esp. where I'm using the wooden seat training cart), even though I was the one giving the commands. He would move, I'd fall back... Not making excuses, as I don't feel that that excuse me.
> 
> I'm also terrible about wanting to lean forward at fast trot or canter...
> ...


Since I typed the last post and even before Susanne's post, I rewatched the video, but I had to go outside to do chores before it got too dark and cold. (My hands still froze up...




)

I can see where at times you have very little contact on Mingus' mouth (I have to ask, how did he get that name?). Then at other times, especially later on the beach, he asks for more rein, but doesn't get it. I think you just missed the signal. I'm not at all saying that at every point that a horse pulls on the rein, he should get more, but in this case, he is going to need more rein to be able to stretch down, which is where he needs to be. He needs to be encouraged to stretch down, and this can be accomplished through half halts. Think of massaging your horse's mouth, kind of like a cat "padding" a soft spot before laying down, but with a squeeze instead of a push. This will encourage him to stretch down, and when he does, let the rein out with him, quit massaging and let him be. Then repeat, then repeat, then repeat....





Another technique for asking the horse to put it's head down comes from John Lyons. He says to hold one rein and when the horse even thinks about lowering his head, you release the rein as the "reward". The concept is, "add pressure, when result is gained, release pressure". Pretty soon, the horse figures out that a hold on the rein means put head down. Simple behavior modification, Pavlov's bell, etc. I sometimes start that lesson standing in the barn aisle, especially with a mini that you can't ride. John says that you have to do something 100 times before they get it, but I think he says that so humans will do it 50 or even 25 times before they expect a consistant result. I think this technique works better with light-mouthed horses than with heavier ones.

However, what really got Alax to drop his head was small circles. Again, we have established that you don't do small circles with a very green horse, but like has already been said, some of these horses need to be pushed beyond baby steps now. Before we started small circle work last winter, Alax was consistantly above the bit, and he was EXTREMELY heavy on it. He would literally lean on my hands. (I doubt Mingus will do this, but he MIGHT get a little heavier before he gets lighter...) The small circles got him to rock back on his haunches and use himself properly, and the mean time, he got off my hands.

This was Alax in 2007 at his first carriage show. We acquired him in Oct. 05 as a 6-yr. old and started his driving training right away. His head also needed to come down. However, since this was his first big show, we didn't push him real hard.











(Turnout comment: I got rid of that off-white seat



to replace it with the tan below



.)

This was Alax this year running a Gambler's Choice obstacle course, so he was pretty motivated (vs. an arena class, which he gets less enthused about now



). He is really reaching down and stretching, so I have given him more rein with my elbows. Alax looks the absolute best right before he pops into a canter, and we are working this winter at trying to maintain that elevation without the canter. I noticed that is when Mingus looked good, too. Canter work will also get them to use their hinds, but Alax needs to understand that cantering is something that he only gets to do when I cue for it. Alax has one more gear now than when this photo was taken last Aug.






This was Alax when my husband was doing his dressage test at a CDE in July. Chad always wants to hold Alax up more. I like this frame, but I think it might be a little "artificial", and he didn't get very good relaxation points. I keep telling Chad to let go a little, that it will come eventually.






You can see in both photos that we have nice contact on his mouth. (Actually, I think that Chad has "pushing" hands in this photo, but I don't know how to explain that.) You aren't going to get anywhere without contact, as any horse will just shuffle around on their own accord, like the first photo. Using this heavier blue vehicle also got Alax to use his hind better.

Myrna


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## susanne (Jan 27, 2010)

> I have to ask, how did he get that name?


Keith and I are both jazz musicians, and our animals are all named after famous jazz musicians. Mingus is named after the late, great bass player and composer, Charles Mingus. Mingus' ego, talent, and quirky sense of humor all resemble his namesake.

Myrna, you have me dying to get out and work -- we may have to trailer to an indoor arena, as our workspace currently resembles a swimming pool. At least this gives me time to read and reread and digest your advice thoroughly. Thank you so much for taking so much time and effort with this!



Shari said:


> Mingus is sooo polite waiting for you to let him go, Susanne. Maggie will wait but she does get impatient and will shake her head to make me hurry up.


He's so funny, because in hand he is so full of himself, but if you even show him a cart he's all business.



> Kody is a sports car.. can see him begging you Leia to go faster..... zoommm...


Perfect analogy -- a TR7? Mazda Miata?



> Maggie has a low neck set, as per the way her neck is tied into her shoulders. But she has some wicked tall withers, that due to conformation, makes a dip in front of her withers. Something you would more likely see in a TB.The under part of her neck is not built up at all. So this issue doesn't always mean they are ewe necked.
> 
> In winter coat
> 
> ...


I love how, even in winter, Maggie is so pleasing to study -- she is a abeautiful girl!


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## BannerBrat (Jan 27, 2010)

susanne said:


> I think we should all take an oath promising not to get offended at honest, well-intended criticism. Too often I've seen great feedback met with resentment and those who wish to share their knowledge become cautious about speaking up. With that, we lose the value of such a forum.
> Meaningless compliments are just that -- meaningless. Give me that honest response anyday. Even if it makes me gulp for a moment, better that I open my eyes than go on in a bubble of ignorance.
> 
> So, here's my vow:
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Good Idea.  [/SIZE]

I, Ashley, vow to be open minded and honest about my horses and with my training in order to help my horses and I reach our fullest potential.





Lori, Myrna, jegray21, and Shari, thank you for your insightful advice and opinions. Some of these things I've had idea's on on but honestly haven't put them into action for multiple reasons. Myrna, Alax is such a handsome fella!



And Shari, Maggie looks like such a sweetheart!


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## maggiemae (Jan 28, 2010)

Thank you all sooo much for the time you've taken in sharing your experience and knowledge. I don't drive yet but I have been avidly reading and re-reading all of this in order to prepare for driving Maggie after her training this spring. This is an excellent thread. I feel encouraged to build a rein-board - and begin on it. I think it would help me see what my hands and elbows are doing and when and what the right position feels like.


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## jegray21 (Jan 28, 2010)

This was Alax when my husband was doing his dressage test at a CDE in July. Chad always wants to hold Alax up more. I like this frame, but I think it might be a little "artificial", and he didn't get very good relaxation points. I keep telling Chad to let go a little, that it will come eventually.






You can see in both photos that we have nice contact on his mouth. (Actually, I think that Chad has "pushing" hands in this photo, but I don't know how to explain that.) You aren't going to get anywhere without contact, as any horse will just shuffle around on their own accord, like the first photo. Using this heavier blue vehicle also got Alax to use his hind better.

Myrna

This looks good...I can see a little bit of what you are saying about artificial but his back is lifted and the stride is long so not so much artificial that the judge might say something. Good to see some working pictures at a show to know what to work for !


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## RhineStone (Jan 28, 2010)

It probably doesn't _look_ too artificial, but *I* know that Alax is being _forced _into it. Chad doesn't have hard hands, he just likes to take up more contact than I do. I hope to get Alax to maintain this frame "on his own" this year, instead of being so long and low. But I am still glad that he doesn't look like he did in '07!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 28, 2010)

Myrna, you've used some LOVELY analogies in your replies that I will be memorizing for my own use and use with my unofficial students. Thank you! There's been so much wonderful text on this thread I can't reply to everything but I picked out a couple points below that particularly stuck out at me.



RhineStone said:


> This is what I saw in the video. Susanne, I'm going to "pick on you", because you were the only one I saw "in motion" other than Leia.
> 
> 
> 
> ...





susanne said:


> Looking at various photos and videos, I am horribly inconsistent in my hand and arm position -- I could definitely use someone to rag on me while we work to keep me in line.
> I've tried. *LOL* I do wish we lived closer so I could do it more than once a year!
> 
> Mingus has a very soft mouth, and in ground-driving we had a fantastic communication between my hands and his mouth -- to the point where I could pretty much think about where I wanted him to go and he would go there.


The only problem was he was responding to your intentions and body language, not your hands. Remember our discussion about "spagetti reins" and the follies of trying to push your horse forward with the reins when ground-driving? When you get somewhere new like our clinic that day, he gets distracted and you have no means of communication left because he was never properly in your hands to begin with.



It's very hard to understand what a "light horse" feels like until you've experienced it. It doesn't mean that you touch their mouth and they respond instantaneously and you don't have to touch them again until the next cue. It means they are so solidly in contact with you that the least little feathering or change in your contact is immediately understood and acted upon. Kody was light in the way that Mingus can be light and I always thought that was good but it's very frustrating when trying to head straight for a set of cones and each little touch causes the horse to wobble violently from left to right and back again. You try to throw the rein away to get them to stop wobbling and then they dump their energy into the ground and go on the forehand and end up sort of oozing through the cones, whereupon you pick them up and go forward and start the cycle over again. It isn't pretty! I spent years that way before my trainer got me straightened out and introduced me to real contact. Now I know that the right thing to do is pick the horse UP with those reins, hold his energy in your hands and get him coming through his topline so he's truly "on the bit." All of a sudden there's this live-wire feel to the reins when the horse is really through and it's the most amazing feeling. It's like suddenly all the physical distance between the horse and you disappears and you might as well be riding them. Your merest thought controls their every move and the two of you think as one. It's such a WOW feeling!



I personally found this easiest to achieve when running cones or hazards because I stopped overthinking and just focused on the goal but more and more I began to be able to bring it into our dressage work and boy it showed. It's a very zen thing and self-rewarding as it's an amazing high. The hard part is getting it the first time!







jegray21 said:


> The horse will only carry himself up and to the bit if he is conditioned to do that. *Focus on the correct response to the driving aid meaning when I ask my horse to walk on or trot on he responds by stretching into the bit and lifting the back and pushing forward and the correct response to the half halt meaning the horse sits behind and does not just give in the pole.* Too many horses just compress the neck when half halted making the back hallow. When watching the horse in the long lines there should be a clear stomach mussel line and the under mussel in the neck loose. Then you know if your horse is working "Over the back" The picture of Kody in the sliding side reins shows a nice loose trot and good stretch over the back.
> Hmm, good point. I'm afraid Kody and I tend to compress that neck and hollow out when trying to collect which drives me crazy.
> 
> 
> ...





jegray21 said:


> Rhinestone said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...


I agree with Myrna about this photo- Alax was not ready for that high of a frame and you can see the tension in him as a result. He has impulsion and is swinging his hind legs pretty far forward but he's not tracking up because he's got tension in his back in front of the hips and the energy is getting locked down at that point. He's _trying_ to hold himself up properly and use his underline but doesn't quite have the strength and as a result he's not raising the root of his neck that extra little bit that would put his head on the vertical and allow him to work through his back and get his hind end well under him. Given a little more time he'll be able to do it, but at this point he'd be better off working lower as Myrna discussed. Great reference photo Myrna!

I'm so glad new drivers are enjoying this thread. Thank you for posting and letting us know we're on the right track!





Leia


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## RhineStone (Jan 28, 2010)

My comments in red below. 



hobbyhorse23 said:


> Myrna, you've used some LOVELY analogies in your replies that I will be memorizing for my own use and use with my unofficial students. Thank you! There's been so much wonderful text on this thread I can't reply to everything but I picked out a couple points below that particularly stuck out at me.
> I use those analogies all the time with my students. Sometimes I really have to think about it hard to come up with a new one if a student doesn't understand. It's my job to get across my idea to the student, not their problem trying to figure out what I am saying.
> 
> 
> ...


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## jegray21 (Jan 29, 2010)

Ok I can not seem to get the hang of the quote part of the forum...and honestly in my 20 years of dressage training have never looked so in depth into the side rein thing but I do understand both sides of the argument and am going to tell you that with some horses like my Friesian side reins did absolutely not work at all and were hardly used. They are not something that should be worked in forever. I use sliding side reins and German martingales which are irrelevant in driving.

In general things that hold the head in place are called draw reins. The proper use of the side reins the horses really can move the head above the bit below the bit behind the bit just within a smaller range of motion. Though this argument seems pointless at this point..lol not everyone likes them and the certainly are not the only way to teach a horse to be through. If you do not drive the horse forward and use your half halts on the lounge line and you count on the fixed side reins to do all the work then the horse will set his head. More so in the use of draw reins. All my point was and the use of them for me is starting a green horse to help simplify the concept to him of where he should strive to go. Once the back lifts the horse finds it comfortable and does not use them at all and they go loose. After that I do not use them at all. IF you just stick the side reins on and shorten them until the head is down and let the horse go in a circle there is not learning or training in that. if your sliding side reins offer to many answers to the solution here is where I want you to work then the horse goes in a circle looking for something they have no idea what it is and my never find. Some do some will go in circles for days or weeks.

As a trainer it is important to evaluate the horse's personality, physical conformation, and use a theory that fits that horse. I have been blessed with the opportunity to train under top trainers of many different theory and can chose the one that matches the horse. In Germany and at Friesian breeding farm I worked at in the states the horse had to ride and drive and our training had to make sense to both disciplines.

But now we start to get into the German training system vs the Dutch vs the Spanish. And this discussion can get very interesting! To drive the horse to a steady contact or to get to horse through lack of contact to seek the bit....I have found each horse is difference and no one system works for all horses. big or small same concept

The time that I spent in Germany was spent studying the conformation of the horses and the location of the reflexes that trigger different reactions in the horse. Meaning Inside leg pushes on inside rib cage here and it blocks the horses inside hind and two inches forward it encourages it to reach farther forward. The horse truly does release chemicals in the brain that relax them when their head is down. but also they feel more vulnerable when the head is down and "round" because they can no longer "see" all around them. This is where the resistance comes from when first learning to work round the conflict in" I want to feel relaxed but I do not feel safe". This is where consistency build trust. and a trusting horse will move his little heart out for you! Nothing more brilliant than watching ultimate thoroughness

This resistance will show up in the first stage when learning to be round and what contact is. And usually appears again when adding in collection..then lateral work...and so on. If when the horse picks his head up because of the change in work load and you drop contact or soften the contact in that moment and the horse puts his head down you still do not have completely connected horse. its an obsession that we dressage people obsess about each moment of each session of each horse : ) and I have ten horses..lol

food for thought....


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 29, 2010)

jegray21 said:


> All my point was and the use of them for me is starting a green horse to help simplify the concept to him of where he should strive to go. Once the back lifts the horse finds it comfortable and does not use them at all and they go loose. After that I do not use them at all. IF you just stick the side reins on and shorten them until the head is down and let the horse go in a circle there is not learning or training in that. if your sliding side reins offer to many answers to the solution here is where I want you to work then the horse goes in a circle looking for something they have no idea what it is and my never find. Some do some will go in circles for days or weeks.
> To drive the horse to a steady contact or to get to horse through lack of contact to seek the bit....I have found each horse is difference and no one system works for all horses. big or small same concept
> 
> I will use a chambon on those that are having difficulty grasping the downward concept - that gives them no choice really but down with some flexibility. Again that is not something I would use on any kind of regular basis or for any length of time but just long enough to get through to them. Then back to the sliding side reins and then on to hitching and driving with and without the side reins.
> ...


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## RhineStone (Jan 29, 2010)

The BIGGEST, most IMPORTANT concept that I have learned from horse training/people training, is to keep your toolbox open! There is no one way that is THE way. If that was the case, there would be only one trainer and training method that we all follow. I have an eclectic toolbox. I use a little "traditional" methods, a little John Lyons, a little Monty Roberts, a little Jeff Morse (Morgan driving trainer), Sally Swift, Heike Bean, Helen Crabtree (Saddle Seat), a little of other driving trainers I have watched and listened to, etc. (I haven't been able to get into Parelli, although their horse personality stuff is interesting. My husband and I basically feel that Parelli gives people with less experience a "system" to follow, which is fine, but we feel it's all too much about "you have to do it this way, and buy my stuff to get there"....but I digress.)

My point is that every horse and every human is different. That is why sometimes I really have to think of a different way to teach to help students understand what I am trying to say, and reframe my teaching for them. It is really satisfying when all of a sudden you seem to use just the right analogy or explanation, and the student does exactly what needs to happen!

I think that the other difference in horse training methods stems from people's timelines for the horse's development. Like Lori said somewhere, she really only has the horses for a short time in comparison. That is probably the biggest reason that I really don't like taking in outside horses for training. It's not that I couldn't do it, but I just like taking my time, and people aren't willing to pay me to take my time, with good reason. The investment they would have in the training would exceed the value of the horse! This is why I prefer to teach people instead of their horses.

Ok, I got to go rewatch that video, and "pick on" Leia. I have a little bit of time.

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Jan 30, 2010)

Leia (et al),

I watched the beach video again (it STILL blows my mind that you all get to drive your horses (and cars) on the beach! The environmentalists around here would have a HISSY FIT!). Regardless....

I also watched some other videos of all phases of CDEs. I'm not sure that I am going to give Leia any comments that she doesn't already know. Leia's position is great. Her hands are quiet and steady, and her posture is better than mine (my vice I have to work on



). Leia seems to "talk" a lot to Kody, which is fine, just make sure that you don't talk so much that he "tunes you out". Chad hardly talks at all to Spider, and sometimes Spider needs the extra encouragement. I catch Chad "growling" at Spider, which is not at all what he needs. That horse is one who seems to need confidence from his driver, especially in "scary" circumstances. He needs an "it's Ok, you can do it" from Mom or Dad. Alax, on the other hand, is pretty good most of the time, but needs a balance between "you can do it" and "that's enough, get your butt in there!" It's a fine line.

Kody seems to get "fussy" in the bridle. I know that you have tried a multitude of bits. Have you got the right one now since the videos? His biggest problem seems that he gets behind the vertical, not to be confused with getting behind the bit, because it doesn't look like he's coming off the bit...



. This is a CHALLENGING problem, but seems to go away more with impulsion. Which leads me to my next comment. Don't be afraid to take up your reins in the left hand to use your whip in the right. I asked this question of a number of judges as to whether or not that is acceptable (it would NEVER be in the riding ring!), and they said by all means! Whatever you need to do to get the performance out of the horse. It says in the ADS rules that using a one or two-handed method is acceptable, but I wasn't sure if you could pass in between them. It is. Then you can really get after him without dropping the right rein. This would be absolutely detrimental in dressage. Also, I would get a whip with a longer lash and use it on his belly, like you would if you were riding him. Flick your wrist around to the right, and "sting" him there (that is a strong word, but for lack of another). I find that lashes that are too short are useless for me, and you end up using the shaft more instead of the lash (which is a bit of an "elementary" use of the whip, except in hazards). A longer lash has better "flick", but you also have to practice using it and not get it caught in parts of the harness, etc. We practice using the lash to knock balls off cones. You have to use a bit of an upward motion to do it, but you can actually get those balls sailing a bit!





I thought of another technique that would help beginners learn better hand position. Muffy Seaton advocates using the "bridge" between hands. Although I don't like using it, I find that it helps beginners learn to keep their hands in a steady position. They can't "pull them apart" then. Also, they learn to be more "subtle" with their cues, because they can't move the reins very far forward and back without affecting the other rein. We can have a bigger discussion on this technique if you all want. I have to go help my husband now.

Myrna


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## jegray21 (Jan 30, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Leia (et al),I watched the beach video again (it STILL blows my mind that you all get to drive your horses (and cars) on the beach! The environmentalists around here would have a HISSY FIT!). Regardless....
> 
> I also watched some other videos of all phases of CDEs. I'm not sure that I am going to give Leia any comments that she doesn't already know. Leia's position is great. Her hands are quiet and steady, and her posture is better than mine (my vice I have to work on
> 
> ...


we used to hold a pen or pencil under our thumbs...to take care of flying elbows string from belt loop to elbow ever time you would move you would feel it. not sure how to do that while driving in a cart...if the trainer was really mean ever time we slouched we would get smacked in the back with a lounge whip! We would practice our position on bouncy balls with pretend reins...not sure if that would help position while driving in a cart or not

Body awareness is a hard thing to learn! Ekart Miner ( I apologize I can not find the correct spelling of his name I will find it somewhere). Had some amazing exercises to help be aware of what your body parts were doing on a horse...like floating elbows, cocked heads, rolled shoulders...The main thing I took away from him was to practice what you wanted to look like not on the horse and watch a lot of people do what you wanted to look like and visualize it. It is amazing what visualization of a dressage test does to improve it! He was a bit out there with some of his theory..I will see if I can look up the notes many of them might help beginner drivers with the upper body position and keeping elbows in and not crossing hands over their body...


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 30, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Leia (et al),I watched the beach video again (it STILL blows my mind that you all get to drive your horses (and cars) on the beach! The environmentalists around here would have a HISSY FIT!). Regardless....


Oh, there are beaches and places on beaches you definitely cannot go around here.



For some reason they have fits about driving over oyster beds!







RhineStone said:


> I also watched some other videos of all phases of CDEs. I'm not sure that I am going to give Leia any comments that she doesn't already know. Leia's position is great. Her hands are quiet and steady, and her posture is better than mine (my vice I have to work on
> 
> 
> 
> ). Leia seems to "talk" a lot to Kody, which is fine, just make sure that you don't talk so much that he "tunes you out".


You're so correct that every horse is different. Kody is a very mentally active, confident, forward horse who doesn't require much reassurance but he's not a natural speed demon and things can change with him in an instant. I never know until I hit the ingate if he's going to be forward in his dressage test or lose all impulsion (as in that Lincoln Creek video from our first year of Prelim) or if he's going to turn way too sharp or not at all when I ask in that hazard. A lot of it depends on how he's doing chiropractically and that can change from the start of Section A to the first Hazard in E.



That means that on many of our videos I'm either urging him to go faster, to hang in there, or am startled into talking to him more than usual just trying to get him through whatever the problem is this time!



He needs to be exhorted to get into the water for instance because he well remembers that the gravel underwater used to hurt his feet before I started keeping his hooves longer. All command phrases are prefaced with his name so I know he definitely tunes into them. The rest of the time he's listening quite hard to the tone of my voice and knows very well when I'm talking to him versus on a cell phone or talking to another driver. He's a smart cookie!



It's funny because we can drive for hours in the woods without saying a word but on marathon it seems like I barely shut up.







RhineStone said:


> Kody seems to get "fussy" in the bridle. I know that you have tried a multitude of bits. Have you got the right one now since the videos? His biggest problem seems that he gets behind the vertical, not to be confused with getting behind the bit, because it doesn't look like he's coming off the bit...
> 
> 
> 
> . This is a CHALLENGING problem, but seems to go away more with impulsion.


He's always been very reactive. My trainer recommended a flash noseband but I felt (correctly, as it turns out) that he was trying to tell me something and I didn't want to cut off his feedback until I'd fixed all the problems. He immediately got much quieter and steadier on the bit we use now and improvements in my hands solved a lot of the rest of it. I don't think I've posted a driving video of him since 2007 and most of our best progress came in late 2007 and all of 2008...guess I should fix that! In the Lincoln Creek videos for instance he was both chiropractically "out" in his lower neck and suffering from cedar allergies I hadn't yet identified which made him feel lethargic and out of it. He absolutely DIED on me after the 13th cone. As he got better impulsion and learned to be more powerful in 2008 we did develop a problem with him going behind the vertical when he objected to being held back but I'm fairly confident that with what I've learned since then I'd be able to work through it if we were able to drive again. Good halt halts, driving him forward and all of that!







RhineStone said:


> Also, I would get a whip with a longer lash and use it on his belly, like you would if you were riding him. Flick your wrist around to the right, and "sting" him there (that is a strong word, but for lack of another). I find that lashes that are too short are useless for me, and you end up using the shaft more instead of the lash (which is a bit of an "elementary" use of the whip, except in hazards). A longer lash has better "flick", but you also have to practice using it and not get it caught in parts of the harness, etc. We practice using the lash to knock balls off cones. You have to use a bit of an upward motion to do it, but you can actually get those balls sailing a bit!


I was guessing when I ordered that first green Ultralite whip and would definitely make some adjustments to the measurements if I were ordering again. The biggest problem is that the shaft is too long so the lash ends up flicking him around the withers and shoulders even when I've choked up on the stock. I found another black Ultralite at the National Drive which had a slightly shorter shaft and that seems to solve the problem nicely.



I have great fun using tandem whips as I LOVE sending that long lash sailing with precision!






Hehehe.

Thanks for the feedback Myrna!

Leia


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## RhineStone (Feb 1, 2010)

No problem! I wish that I had some video of me that I could post and you all could tear apart



, but alas, only still photos. I think I shot video of OTHER people driving Alax, but not me!



(Of course, we don't have a digital video camera either....still just the tape one.)

"I was guessing when I ordered that first green Ultralite whip and would definitely make some adjustments to the measurements if I were ordering again. The biggest problem is that the shaft is too long so the lash ends up flicking him around the withers and shoulders even when I've choked up on the stock. I found another black Ultralite at the National Drive which had a slightly shorter shaft and that seems to solve the problem nicely.



"

I need to order a new show whip. My practice whips are from Smucker's and are 48" with a 24" lash and I LOVE them. The problem is that the ferrules are silver and don't match my brass harness. I have painted them gold, but that isn't quite right either. So, I happened across some carbon fiber whips from Paul's Harness Shop, and really like them, but I ordered the lash too short and can't "flick" it very well. I sold one and kept one with a puny 8" lash for the kids, so they don't have to worry about getting the lash stuck in places. I wish that I could "test drive" one, because I am concerned about the shaft getting too long with the long lash. Right now, my shaft isn't too long, but would it be with a longer lash?



Where does your shaft reach on your horse that you flick him in the withers and shoulders?

Myrna


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