# Just some of my own thoughts and feelings



## horsehug (Mar 22, 2007)

I just wanted to say I do not want to hurt feelings or offend anyone. But after reading lots of posts recently and also over the years, about what we do with our minis and why we have them, and geldings vs stallions, and showing as well as other ways of enjoying them, and the market for them ....... just to mention a few topics.....I have a few thoughts of my own on several points.

I had posted most of this the day before yesterday on another thread which has since been removed, so it was not on very long at all, and I thought I'd post most of my post again since I finally took the time to sit down and write things which had been on my mind for years.

I used to show my little minis at our county fair and it was not either AMHA or AMHR sanctioned but it was so much fun and the town folks always loved having the minis there.  It did not matter if they were registered or not. Some had never seen them before and became interested! There are so many ways to help the market of these little guys and that is just one. 

I also love taking mine to the nursing home in our home town when they ask us. We usually take a mare and a tiny foal so that we can lift the tiny foal up and even let the ones in bed pet it and have it right there on the bed  They love that! This is one of the many reasons I personally love the tiny ones. 

In our town parades, I also drive my stallion and sometimes take a few foals and moms along walking each year, and that too is a first time to see minis for lots of folks! They are so well liked they usually win one of the prizes for entries in the parade. 

I believe that in the "overall big picture", the vast majority of mini owners do not show, and also a huge number of mini owners have their own stallions. I am one of those. I used to show close to home years ago, but my heart has always been much more in the breeding and foaling end of it. I think those who show and love it should definitely be showing.  I have friends who do, and I cheer them on!

I also think those who have their own stallions and mares and choose to raise foals each year and get tremendous joy out of that, should do that.  Miniature horses have SO many ways of bringing joy and we each have to find our own niche.

And I also think when it comes to "type", that everyone is going to have their own opinion on horses.

And I think it is important for each of us to raise the kind of minis WE love, not what someone else is telling us to raise. If someone loves their stallion and the babies he puts on the ground and can either keep them for his own enjoyment or finds good homes for them with no problem, then I do not see a reason to geld that stallion. If the foals have the good health and conformation to end up in loving homes and lead happy healthy lives, that is what is important in my humble opinion.

I truly think that is what the vast majority of breeders do....... those who never post or do not show, but are enjoying their little herds all over this great land of ours as well as in other countries....... and that it is really only a fraction of mini horse owners who show, and certainly who show to the national level. And I think the vast majority of these small (for the most part) breeders would feel very bad to have someone tell them their stallion should be gelded, unless they asked for that kind of opinion on here. Consequently I think people who do post pics and ask for opinions are very brave and need to be very thick skinned. And I admire them also.

I also think there are probably a Huge number of "diamonds in the rough" on farms that are never even considered for showing but are out there producing beautiful babies just like the champions. 

I'm sure many of you will disagree with one point or another in these musings of mine  And that is okay!

But I often think about these things and hope people are enjoying their minis as much as I do mine, even if they are not national champions, but beloved companions and pets, and probably many with excellent conformation also. 

These are only my thoughts and opinions.

And thanks for letting me express them. I sometimes feel like there might be out there a huge silent majority who needs to have a voice. If I am wrong, so be it. This was not meant to hurt anyone.

And if I am the only one with these thoughts, well I have lived most of my life to the beat of a different drummer. 

Susan O.


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## CharmedMinis (Mar 22, 2007)

Awesome post Susan!!!

I agree with you 100%




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## Scoopiedoo (Mar 22, 2007)

VERY eloquently spoken again, Susan. :aktion033: Thank you.

Jodi


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## backwoodsnanny (Mar 22, 2007)

Susan as I PM'd you you voiced what many were thinking. Thank you.

I also think that many of these posts get soooo very heated because everyone really does have the best interest of the little horses at heart but also human nature being what it is there are also many who dont understand why it is anyone elses business what they raise or breed for that matter.

I really do believe that all who breed think when they breed that they ARE breeding the best they can afford which we hear on this board all the time. The problem comes when the best we can afford is not the best others can afford. I think many of us started with pet quality minis and even if we didnt breed them many starting out dont see conformational flaws in their own horses. Hence the term Barn blind and I have, at points in time been as guilty of it as anyone. I did not love them any less than I love what we have now and we still have the first two rescues we ever bought because we promised them a home for life not because they are the best horses in the barn.

We have had minis for 6 years a very short time compared to many here and truthfully did not really think about foals until 2 years ago. We had our first foal crop of our own breeding last year and yes there are some things I would change and we are working toward that now but Rome wasnt built in a day and everyone should be able to remember when they were brand new and just starting their own breeding programs and they didnt start with National Champions either if the truth were told. Its sort of like raising children without remembering when we were children ourselves.

Again thank you for your musings.


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## Twistwood (Mar 22, 2007)

Susan, I bet a majority of mini owners agree with you! Yeah for saying it out loud :aktion033: We are a small breeder in the south and we do enjoy showing too but as a social worker I find that pet therapy is alot of fun and great for my patients. You see, I work in a Mental Health facility for adults. It is a state run hospital. I brought 5 miniatures for our Christmas Parade and wow, the patients just lit up! They are still talking about the "little horses". Many times I have shared my horses with others, nursing homes and town fairs etc. I too like to just enjoy them. We do have a few foals each year, not more than we can handle and we love foaling season (we are on foal watch with our 17 yr old mare as we speak!). You are also right about "diamonds in the rough" I know folks here that have beautiful horses but do not show them, but the still enjoy them. I have met some very nice people in the miniature world and I have run across a few greedy folks that just like to be hurtful, but when I look out at my "babies" I am reminded what they do for me and how much joy I get from them. Last year, I almost died TWICE. I had a heart attack in March and had a stent put in and one month later had open gallblader surgery because I had gangren. Either of these conditions could have killed me. I spent many days recovering at home. I would sit on my porch and watch my horses play and interact. This was such a comfort and they don't know how much they helped me through that tough time. So yes, Susan. I do appreciate the miniature and what they do for all of us who love and care for them. Excellent post!



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## Miniv (Mar 22, 2007)

Nice post, Susan.

MA


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## Mona (Mar 22, 2007)

I agree 100% Susan! I have always done and felt the same way.



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I have what _*I*_ like to see out in my pastures. I try to raise what I feel are a good quality of Miniature Horses, and I am the one doing the work, and I'm the one paying the bills, and in the end, I am going to raise what _*I*_ want to see out there in my pastures!



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## Ridgerunner (Mar 23, 2007)

Well said, Susan! My feelings exactly! :aktion033:

Melba


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## ~Palomino~ (Mar 23, 2007)

Great Post Susan! I agree with you 100%! Sometimes people get caught up on trying to make others happy and forget to make themselfs happy! Everyone and Anyone who knows you knows that you have some of the CUTEST friendliest minis ever! And I would rather much see that then some national-champion-to-be out of controll horse!

Thanks for posting that!

Gage


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 23, 2007)

I can see your point but, sorry, I do have to disagree a little.

Many (MANY) years ago before we could dream of owning a registered Arab we bought a couple of "grade" Arabs.

Both these mares were awesome to look at and, as we were into working /Jumping/Gymkhana at the time, more than breeding, they did everything we wanted.

BUT when we came to settle down to breed, although we did breed these mares, and they were eligible for part- bred papers (so at NO time were we breeding unregistered foals) we quickly saw that if we wanted to achieve our goal the way forward was not to sit in the sideline and moan that it was unfair that our (very beautiful and easily better than a lot of purebred) foals were undervalued and this was not right, etc.

The way forward was to get in the ring and breed Arabs as good as, if not better than the part bred foals we had had.

And that is what we did.

At NO time during all the years, right form the start when I was a kid, would I ever have even considered using an unregistered stallion on my mares- even though the first mare I had was an unregistered Fell pony- I used an Arab stallion on her.

Long before we could afford out first Arab mare we had a stallion- a very good, very well bred stallion, too, he more than earned his keep at stud.

The only difference between a "pet" Mini and a "show" Mini should be the job it does- there is no reason at all why an animal that could have been World Champion, should not be happy doing parades and nursing home visits- in fact I would rather sell an animal to a home like this and, if the colt gas not been gelded I am happy to give a gelding concession, even on a colt that I consider good enough to stay entire- it is the job he is bought for that is important, not my opinion of him.

I would not keep an unregistered or second rate stallion irrespective of how "good" his foals are as it is not the first generation that is important to me, it is the fourth and fifth, as I am now into, that counts.

I breed for always, not just for myself- I hope that in generations to come people will look back on my stock- as they are already starting to do- and see quality- just as Buckaroo in one of your pedigrees, so "Mighty Atom" in ours.

This is what I am breeding for- since sweet little pets and "ugly bugs" both happen without any help and in the very best breeding programmes I can see absolutely no point in breeding for them specifically.

I see no reason for this "snobbery" that is arising- "I breed good sound pets and none of my horses are registered" does NOT cut it for me.

As if the suggestion is, no "Show Horse" (hifaluting neurotic creatures that they are,) could possibly be well natured!!

I breed top class show animals.

They are all sound in body and mind and are all capable of doing three jobs- Halter, Performance and Breeding.

Except the geldings!!

After all- what use is a gelding if it cannot perform, (at some level- in this I include pet and nursing home work as "performing") and please remember that these geldings that perform are the full brothers of the "neurotic" creatures that win at halter!!

So no I think it is a very , very dangerous precedent to set, to start to split a "breed" that is not even yet halfway to being a breed, into "show" and "pet".

We should be incorporating BOTH aspects in our registered breeding programmes.

Trust me- I have seen the damage this sort of thinking has caused in Dogs and Arabs- it does NO good at all.

Instead of kicking against al this, since the AMHA at least is looking for ways to make money, perhaps they should be looking at opening a Part Bred register- it is the biggest money spinner the Arab Horse Society has ever had!!!


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## Warpony (Mar 23, 2007)

If there weren't so many horses in rescue or going through local auctions as weanlings and selling for almost nothing (if they sell at all) I would agree... I WANT to agree because deep in my heart more then anything I WANT to breed and I just can't afford a really fine quality herd. But I just can't look at the horses in need of homes and breed without feeling terribly guilty. If I breed it wouldn't be to sell, it would be to add another tiny horse to my family... but how can I justify that when I can just go to the auction, pay $25 for a weanling of the same quality I could produce or better, and save it from god only knows what horrors? I can't justify that. Not for myself.


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## just2minis (Mar 23, 2007)

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: You said that very kindly and respectfully, and I totally agree.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Mar 23, 2007)

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

On SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO many levels and we'll leave it at that..


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## wendymac (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree 100! Well said! :aktion033: Just because a horse has a show record doesn't necessarily mean it's better than a horse that's never stepped foot in a show ring. For some, showing isn't something they want to do. While it's great that people are showing (and I'm a show person, but will probably never step foot in an AMHA/AMHR show), a good horse is a good horse...show points/titles or not. And with showing, it's mostly politics anyway...so what's winning isn't necessarily the cream of the crop.

BUT! I have seen a LOT of stallions (mostly ones that aren't showing) that shouldn't be stallions. Poor conformation, average babies, etc. What I've found even more ironic is some of those people are people that tell other people to geld their stallion. Many people are barn blind, but I'm sure not going to tell them, "Hey, you should geld your stallion."

I have a stallion, and I have two mares. I'm going to breed, but only for myself and my family. If someone wants to buy a horse from me, fine. If not, they'll live here. Thank goodness we have a lot of room here.


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## jjnov (Mar 23, 2007)

I 2nd that! I love to breed minis, for the births and the babies, something about them has a special wram place in my heart. I will admit, next year will be my stallion's first baby, he may not look the best, as he was attacked by dogs and has scars on his neck, and then this past fall, he false nostrils collapsed, and he has surgery. Yes, he sounds like he is snoring sometimes, and his nose isnt perfectly round, but the surgery also threw his bite off. It was PERFECT before. BUT he is still a great guy, has good appy bloodlines, and i CANT wait to see what he will throw! My stallion may not look pretty now, but he did last spring before it poured down on him


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## CyndiD (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree with most everything you said...but tell me why or HOW to deal with people that like to cause trouble.

I lost a foal recently and heard from sources that the particular line had reproductive trouble...whats up with that??? :no:

I too like to raise what I like, and I DO take good care of them and enjoy them and share them...so...how do I deal with people who say things like that?? Ignore it??

I sure would like some ideas...has this ever happened to you??


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## Reijel's Mom (Mar 23, 2007)

Warpony said:


> If there weren't so many horses in rescue or going through local auctions as weanlings and selling for almost nothing (if they sell at all) I would agree... I WANT to agree because deep in my heart more then anything I WANT to breed and I just can't afford a really fine quality herd. But I just can't look at the horses in need of homes and breed without feeling terribly guilty. If I breed it wouldn't be to sell, it would be to add another tiny horse to my family... but how can I justify that when I can just go to the auction, pay $25 for a weanling of the same quality I could produce or better, and save it from god only knows what horrors? I can't justify that. Not for myself.



I'd have to agree with your reasoning (not that I'm saying I will NEVER breed a horse because quite honestly I probably will someday, for a keeper for myself, or at least rescue a pregnant mare). I would like to hope that at least some of those folks that are quick to point out to others that a certain animal shouldn't be bred are doing it with this type of reasoning in mind. There is no absolute guarantee that even high quality stock won't end up in bad places someday, but let's face it, it's at least a little less likely.


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## Sunshine Acres (Mar 23, 2007)

Wow, I am in some agreement with your post and what others have had to say as well. I do agree you should like what is in your pastures, I feel for the most part they are all eye candy!

We can all agree that there are way to many dogs and cats being born flooding the market and the humane societies, with 1,000 ok maybe 100,000's that are put to death every year, and some I am sure are registered, and some I am sure that some breeder thought were wonderful and absolutely beautiful, so thier bred thier parents again and again and again, and continued to sell. Now lets look at this in the horse relm, thank god one breeding a year only produces on foal a year, but one stallion can produce 200 foals a year if so be it. And yes they are all going to be cute when they are born, no different than a cute little fuzzy puppy or kitten.

However I can honestly not understand when someone says they raise and breed becuase they just love the foaling experience. Let me tell you, if you love and cherrish your horses, you would be watching them on camera, wearing monitors, in essence keeping you awake for 30 plus days, with no sleep just to experience the joy of finding a dead foal in a sack, or going through a horrible dystocia, loosing your mare, having a dummy foal, or how about when the mare foals early no one is there assisting and wammo dead baby. How one earth can this be fun or becuase you love your horses so dearly.

And yeah sure you are perfectly happy with breeding 10-20 horses a year, loose one or 2 who cares, and then turn around and sell them for $500 and you are happy you just made feed money.

As for the showing part, if you are so in love with the breed, then why would you not want to know if your animal fits the breed standard. I don't think that everyone is showing simply to win a big title, but perhaps they want to know if their horse measures up to the current Miniature standard. If I was breeding 3 legged dogs and saying that they are wonderful becuase they are a diamond in the rough, I can assure you that people who seriously breed dogs would be very offended.

How many horses have you bred that have ended up in an auction or slaughter house? Well you wouldn't know that becuase how on earth can you keep track of your horses that you breed and sell every year. Now I do realize that people breed or thier own enjoyment and are planning to keep them, I am not critisizing those few. Really not critisizing anyone just giving MY OPINION, just like the orignal poster.

If we don't stop breeding willy nilly because we like it what is going to happen to all the horses and all thier offspring and all thier offspring. Why do we have to be a breed that is only about breeding? Other breeds have made the same mistake. We can all justify why we do it, but at some point when does the responsibility issue come in.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Mar 23, 2007)

CyndiD said:


> I agree with most everything you said...but tell me why or HOW to deal with people that like to cause trouble.
> 
> I lost a foal recently and heard from sources that the particular line had reproductive trouble...whats up with that??? :no:


Not knowing the horse or the lines you are referring to I would say I dont know that I would think this person is a trouble maker there are lines that many seem to feel have some repro issues or some lines that have height issues, some lines that drop testicles later , some that grow fast..

I am not so sure I would dismiss someone saying something like that. For me personally it would be something I would try and research and if the incident of trouble is even slightly more then "average" i would not breed that line anymore BUT that is JMO


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## Hosscrazy (Mar 23, 2007)

> I hope people are enjoying their minis as much as I do mine, even if they are not national champions, but beloved companions and pets, and probably many with excellent conformation also.


I could not have said it better, Susan!!!

Liz R.


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## Buckskin gal (Mar 23, 2007)

Susan, I don't think you will hurt any feelings with what you say. I always like hearing others opinions and why they choose to do what they are doing with the miniatures. In part, I too think that people who own miniatures should have the type they want in their pasture but when it comes to breeding I think it is a huge responsibility that should not be taken lightly. You have every right to breed and raise horses but do we have the right to bring so many into the world that some might end up in the wrong places or is that just the chance a breeder takes? And even though we love those babies do we look at what future they have or are we being selfish in just filling our own desires to have babies that are a joy to us? And why so many to get that joy......would one or two not fill that joy? We all claim to love our horses but yet we do put them at risk whenever we plan for them to have a foal...we hear all the time of the terrible experiences mares can have while foaling. And there are peolple who claim to love their minis and yet aren't even around to tend to the foaling mare in case something does go wrong. We can love and enjoy our minis but is there really a need to produce so many? People do have selfish reasons for breeding and alot of people get into breeding without the knowledge to breed for sound and healthy horses. Take a cute stallion and some mares and many think that is all that is needed....people need to study which lines have faults that should not be perpetuated and minis do have them....I totaly agree with you that there is something wonderful about having healthy, beautiful foals ...they make our hearts swell but should a horse be bred just to fill our need of wanting to enjoy those foals when it is a fact that way too many foals are being brought into the world that will end up being abused or not wanted, after a time? For me, there is a huge difference between loving our horses and loving to have foals. We all have the "right" to do what we want to with our horses and I would never want to see that right taken away. Too often rights are abused though and animals suffer for it.

I think the reason many people don't encourage using some of the stallions that are pictured is because they aren't seeing the whole picture of that stallion. Can't look into that mouth, can't see if it has bloodlines that may produce dwarfs or other horrible faults and I also think there are people who just plain think that not every person makes a responsible breeder. I could go on and on as to why breeding should be limited but I would much prefer each person who thinks about breeding to really evaluate why they want to breed a horse and know that the foal will always have a quality life after leaving the breeder. I think too many people look at breeding as a fun, entertaining, profitable thing to do without thinking of the life they have brought into this world. I do understand the enjoyument a mini can bring....have all kinds of ways we enjoy them but we also love our horses and don't want to breed them just for the pleasure of having foals to love on. And Susan, I really doubt that you are going to the "beat of a different drummer"...not with the replies you are getting. I do agree that each person should have the type they want in their pastures but when it comes to breeding, more than type needs to be considered.....health, disposition, the market, the life of the horse and if it will always be a joy to someone etc. I just hope that no one takes breeding animals lightly and will be responsible for the horses they bring into the world. Would love to see your horses, someday. Mary

"I believe that in the "overall big picture", the vast majority of mini owners do not show, and also a huge number of mini owners have their own stallions. I am one of those. I used to show close to home years ago, but my heart has always been much more in the breeding and foaling end of it. I think those who show and love it should definitely be showing.  I have friends who do, and I cheer them on!

I also think those who have their own stallions and mares and choose to raise foals each year and get tremendous joy out of that, should do that.  Miniature horses have SO many ways of bringing joy and we each have to find our own niche."

.


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## Reble (Mar 23, 2007)

I believe we all Agree to Disagree

Different

by Vincen Tabatha

How are we so "different"?

If "different" is just a thing.

If we all have certain features,

What does "different" bring?

People filled with hatred,

Can't possibly see,

That there's not really "differences"

Between you and me.

Looks can't show "difference",

If they're just there to be seen.

If you don't look like someone else,

Why are they so mean?

If being "different" is what is wrong,

I'd rather not be right.

And I'd want to finish living,

Doing the "different" fight.


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## kenna (Mar 23, 2007)

> Why do we have to be a breed that is only about breeding?


:aktion033:


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## palsminihorses (Mar 23, 2007)

Susan,

I just want you to know that I am one of the ones who agrees with you 100%! And I'm sure that there are hundreds more who agree also, but you'll never know it because they won't post it here.

Thank you for a great post from another small breeder!

Pam C.


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## HGFarm (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree with Rabbits

I do not understand the comments regarding the 'champion out of control horse' or the 'neurotic' show horses.

I show. I have been to Nationals and plan on being back this year. I have driven in big parades and tiny town parades. I have shown at open shows against other breeds. I belonged to a driving drill team for over two years. I pleasure drive at home. I would love to learn more about the CDE's and other fun driving events. My horses are my pets. My 'show' horses have the dispositions to go to a nursing home or other facility if I so desired. In no way are they out of control or neurotic. I also breed. I know that all foals are not going to be 'show' quality, but are _hopefully_ just that- QUALITY.

It was always drilled into my head by old time breeders with other breeds to always try to BETTER your stock and the breed. Hopefully a stallion and/or mare will 'nick' and should out produce themselves. The goal was to make the breed better and improve it. It was never to create animals with worse faults than what you already have/had.

We had full sized horses, some of which we did not show. They were used for ranch work, trail riding, roping, hunting, my daughter learned to ride on some of them. They were good quality, healthy, versatile and could have probably done ok in the show ring, had we decided to that- we sold a couple of the foals who went to show homes and qualified for the World several times. At that time, we had no interest and no time to go to that level but were proud that _they_ did.

I have known many dog breeders with various breeds that have the same breeding standards. You breed for the best and it doesnt matter if the dog ends up a loved pet or in the show ring. Good quality is a must to keep the breed alive and going, no matter what the ending result 'job' that animal may have.

Quality and careful breeding is what hopefully helps keep conformation and health issues to a minimum (if you had two lovely dogs but they both had hip dysplasia, would you breed them to create a litter of pups that is 99% sure to get it?) so when the animal does end up as a loved pet or neighborhood family driving horse, it is healthy and happy and the owners are not passing it off from one to the next because of other issues. And yes, some conformation problems as we know, can cause health issues. It is not all about 'looking pretty'.

I understand completely the value of a loved pet- mine are all part of the family, and so were our big horses. But I would not dream of breeding an animal that I did not think could contribute something positive to the breed.

Two champions can produce a horse that will never see a show ring. We all know that. It will make someone a fabulous family pet or whatever.... Since this occurs on a regular basis already, from top horses, why would we want to downgrade and breed even lesser quality and backslide on our breed?

To have a Mini as a pet is great- most of us do- but I would not consider breeding for less than top quality- or as high a quality as you can, as you are going to get a lot of nice 'pets' from those crosses anyway.

Just my opinion - flame away, I have my suit on.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Mar 23, 2007)

well I dont know how to fix the problem but a huge part of it is.. most ofther breeds(disiplines) have different circuits A circuit B circuit and schooling shows

There are hunters I know of who have been on the B circuit or schooling shows all there lives and when they sell they sell for BIG money they know there job may not be good enough to go out there and win on the A circuit but can pack a kid around a course like nobody's buisness.

They get the kids to where they are ready to move up and get sold to another new kid and do the same thing.

This happens be it in hunters, dressage, west pleasure CDE or whatever sadly our minis don't have alot of options it is Nationals or open shows and most dont even really put merit in what a horse might be able to do in a open show when it comes to pricing and marketability.

We can all agree that 80-90 percent of the people owning minis will never have the desire to even see a national show and that is not a bad thing.

There just doesnt seem to be alot of options for those that might not have top quality show horses, or the money to show in breed shows (which in most cases is WAY more expensive then open shows) so with such a huge lack of acceptable "jobs" for these horses well they end up being bred.

I don't know what the answer is to make this not be a breed about breeding and our own marketing strategy is always about either showing or breeding top show colt then breed him, wonderful broodmare prospect.. over 95 percent of our adds that we post have to do with horses that are good for BREEDING.. yet we then come back and say why are so many people breeding?

A catch 22 I realize and iwth many local breed shows struggling I realize it can be hard to even think of making and supporting other circuits but in the long run it should be something both registries are thinking about.

It would allow a place for those horses that cant cut it at top levels to have a job and still be very marketable, it would give everyone a place to start and learn which all in all makes most want to do more and learn more - going on to upper levels- and all in all would allow more people to try there hand at showing without feeling they are not good enough and are out horsed or showing against some of the top trainers in there area.


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## kenna (Mar 23, 2007)

I agree, Lisa, there's not nearly as much for miniatures as there is for big horses. I'll risk being wrong by saying halter is probably the most popular "discipline" for miniatures, and halter was started to evaluate breeding stock (except in the case of geldings). I don't know what needs to be done.


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## Danielle_E. (Mar 23, 2007)

I believe for too many years the emphasis with the miniature horse was more of a "halter class" type of equine. That is how the breed is still being portrayed in the magazines, look at all the glossy ads. You do see some ads of a driving mini but not as many so that is the image we are still portraying. How many ads are there of a mini jumping? And in the ads what is usually written, National Championps, halter....blah blah blah. I get caught up in seeing these ads as well but then I sit back and say to myself, there are minis out there that are just as nice conformation wise as some in these "heavy make-up", glossy pics, etc. etc. that will never see a sanctioned show or a National show... Having arabians I see the mimicking that is going on between these two equine "worlds" and in some respects I don't think it's a good thing. Often I have been quite shocked to see the picture of an National Champion mini, unclipped, no makeup, when they are "au-naturel" and not posed for "glamour shots". Until we truly start marketing this breed as a "doing" breed (driving, jumping, etc) the emphasis will always be on "breeding" and "halter". I also don't know of any other breeders of other breeds that breed 20, 30 plus horses a year. We do it why? becasuse they are small, less expensive to feed, house, etc and sell for as much if not more than a horse than can be ridden... Unfortunately we are now seeing the miniature horse in "kill pens" and it won't get better if we continue down the path the breed is going. It's like the hay day of the arabians back in the 80s when the ads, and they are still in some magazines basically saying if you own an arabian and breed it you can use that money to put your child through college/university and get a tax shelter at the same time. The marketing has to change. Now the message that seems to be going out is buy some minis, breed them, sell them, make some money. That is the message that is getting out there now and that is why you are now seeing a surplus of minis at very low $$. My philosophy is "if you can't afford to keep them than don't breed". The problem I believe is with the breeders that breed whatever amount yearly and take them to low end auctions because they "must have room for next year's foal crop". If you can't sell the ones this year but makes you think you will sell the ones next year? These animals didn't ask to be born and they deserve to be placed in suitable homes and not end up in kill pens and slaughter houses.


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## megaroo (Mar 23, 2007)

Like somebody said, we all have different point of views however I agree with the topic of the post!!!


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## KanoasDestiny (Mar 23, 2007)

:aktion033: Wonderful post Susan. You took the thoughts right out of my head.




:

Last Tuesday, I went to my aunt's house, and she has 21 big horses. As I was spending time with each horse, I have to be 100% honest, I could not tell which ones were registered and which ones were not by looking at them. All looked like they were equally capable of riding...and loving. And yes, there was a couple that were unregistered. My uncle pointed out the mares they plan to breed (all registered), and truthfully a few of them, I would not have chosen for myself regardless of bloodlines. They did have an unregistered mare that recently came from an auction that would have been my first choice, as she was beautiful and carried herself better than any of the "boring" mares they picked. And their stallions? They have three, and only one of them would have been one I would personally breed from. One of the others had wonderful champion bloodlines, but he was the ugliest of the three. So to each their own. No one can tell me that because one horse was registered, it was easier, more pleasing, more capable or more beautiful to ride, than one of the unregistered horses. So while I do understand that...IF your goal is to breed for a living, you want to breed "registered" horses, personally...I would want to breed a horse I was attracted to, rather than relying on a piece of paper, for my own pet or riding buddy.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Mar 23, 2007)

> I also don't know of any other breeders of other breeds that breed 20, 30 plus horses a year. We do it why?


This is not entirely true, there are breeders in the stock horse world who do breed large number of foals.. I have a friend working for a WP AQHA/APHA farm in Illinois and they are currently awaiting 200 of their OWN mares to foal out (plus they have quite a few who have already foaled) then on top of that they have all of their client mares, and I know they are not the only ones, but I will not mention farm names as I do not think it necessary too... I know of several other farms that breed specifically halter horses (AQHA and APHA as well) that have 20-30 foals due.. Look at all of the Thoroughbred farms, they have 20, 30+ and some of the big ones have almost a hundred or more..

I am in no means disagreeing with you, but stating that the breding for large numbers of foals DO occur in other breeds just as it does in the miniatures, however, it's not as highly common as miniatures because, JMO, the large breed foals take so much more time, discipline and training than out miniatures do.

Personally, and this is just my honest opinion, I'd like to see the minis move away from the 'araby' look and be bred for more-all around horses, the ones that can do it all, (halter, jump, drive) The legs on some of today's minis, in my opinion, look like twigs that will snap with just little pressure, and some of those fillies and mares that are winning classes I would be terrified to breed as I feel they do not have the depth and width of body to carry a foal, let alone the hips to pass the foal, and personally I think that's why there are a high incidence of dystocias, but again, just my opinion


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## [email protected] (Mar 23, 2007)

Susan that was a really wonderful, heartfelt post. I do agree with much of what you wrote, but you are one of the responsible ones that has years of experience knowing what a good horse is versus many people that will use your words to validate breeding of inferior animals.

I'm in agreement with you that the majority of people do NOT show. It is the same with dogs - I had a dog breeder tell me that - *Dog breeders need to face the reality no matter how good the quality of their dogs is, the majority will end up in a pet home.* That is the best we could wish for a good pet home for any horse, dog or cat. BUT people should be breeding good quality horses that are close to the breed standard as far as conformation and temperament go and I truly believe those horses should have at least one set of papers (AMHA or AMHR) and be DNA/PQ tested at the very minimum.

I'm against breeding of unregistered horses for any reason - it's like breeding unregistered anything else and totally unnecessary. There are enough unwanted purebreds of every pet species out there now. It is just as easy to get a breeding quality mini that will be a beloved pet and produce higher quality foals, than a grade or pet quality mare or stallion being used for breeding.

The other argument I hate to read - "I'm only breeding for myself and I'll keep any foal". Great! You should be breeding for what gives you pleasure, enjoy looking at and interacting with and thoroughly enjoying. But does everyone that does this consider - what if you die or life changes and forces you to have to sell and you've been breeding a not so great to a not so great? Do people consider what will happen to those probably very cute and loving minis?

Breeding everything that has the equipment is reprehensible, but that is what I was told when I first 'got into minis' and I see lots of people still doing that. I bred 5 mares last year (we have 62 minis), and all our horses are AMHA (most double registered R), all breeding horses are DNA tested and all are PQ tested that I could. All our horses have straight legs, straight bites, and good conformation (I'm not vain enough to say great on anything!), but I stll don't NEED to breed them all.

I look at my current herd of minis, and the four foals we're expecting this year, will with good luck live into their 20's - I'll be in my 60's by that time. I can't know right now if I'll be alive, have a financial reversal, whatever that would force me to sell my minis, including my favorite pets. I'm not sure people think about that when they're breeding. I know I do, and have been thinking what is the responsible thing to do as I get older.

My last comment then off the soapbox. Horses are wonderful, I can't imagine living without them, but I'm not sure people consider the overall cost to keep them. If you start with a healthy, good quality horse in the beginning from sound breeding stock, you're less likely to have problems. When I get buyers that want to buy a mini for cheap - I remind them, that the purchase price is the least costly thing they'll have about owning a mini. The annual maintenance and - heaven forbid - horrific accident that can run into the 5-10K range needs to be considered.

Good post Susan - lots of room for thought for all us!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Mar 23, 2007)

Lucky-C-Acres-Minis said:


> This is not entirely true, there are breeders in the stock horse world who do breed large number of foals.. I have a friend working for a WP AQHA/APHA farm in Illinois and they are currently awaiting 200 of their OWN mares to foal out (plus they have quite a few who have already foaled) then on top of that they have all of their client mares, and I know they are not the only ones, but I will not mention farm names as I do not think it necessary too... I know of several other farms that breed specifically halter horses (AQHA and APHA as well) that have 20-30 foals due.. Look at all of the Thoroughbred farms, they have 20, 30+ and some of the big ones have almost a hundred or more..
> 
> I



The difference is though .. why yes it takes hundreds of foals to get that special "one" those large horses can go on and most do to have a usable productive life and the majority of them will not be bred.

they will be kids horses, west horses, trail horses, barrel horses, hunters, jumpers, husband horses ect the majority of people looking for large horses are not looking for a horse to breed.

the issue with minis would be that most of them are bought simply to be bred


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Mar 23, 2007)

> The difference is though .. why yes it takes hundreds of foals to get that special "one" those large horses can go on and most do to have a usable productive life and the majority of them will not be bred.they will be kids horses, west horses, trail horses, barrel horses, hunters, jumpers, husband horses ect the majority of people looking for large horses are not looking for a horse to breed.


To a point this is true, but have you stopped and looked at many of today's AQHA and APHA halter horses? Today's halter horses are bred for muscle and bulk.. However, too many wind up with small feet and legs that can not support the mass of their body.. Sure, because the bulk is what is desired, many of these horses have succesful show careers, but after they retire from the showring or are injured and can no longer show, guess where they end up? If they were successful in the ring they get put into someone's breeding string, but unfortunately many of them are dubbed no longer worth value since they can not move well enough to be a rider..


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## capall beag (Mar 23, 2007)

This is a good post and refreshing and honest.

That said I think [email protected] nailed on the head my thoughts!

To me she appears to be incredibly responsible and caring owner!

I am very impressed with your post Michelle!



:


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## HGFarm (Mar 23, 2007)

Michelle/Wesco I agree.

Unfortunately, that is the thing about Minis. Yes, you can do anything with them that you can with a big horse, except ride them. Which cuts out cutting, barrel racing and games, English Pleasure, the hunter/jumper circuit (except at a pointed Mini show) Team Penning, Endurance and all the other things that other breeds are able to participate in.

Lucky C- I HATE that trend that has been so popular for about 20 years now! I know someone who, after losing their old performance horse (which by the way also earned his halter titles) went out and bought a high dollar halter line because it was the hot item at the time. He sold him with a year after breaking him to ride. This horse could NOT MOVE. At all!

To me, a halter horse should be judged on how it represents the BREED, not just one type. A halter horse should be an example of just how versatile and pretty the breed is. They certainly used to do that in the 'old days'. I can think of old Foundation Appaloosas that not only raced, but when they came off the track, were haltered, pleasured, roped off of and even gamed- successfully and lived to see ripe old ages soundly! What happened to those??

I do see, that the Mini world is following that trend. You have your halter horses- and then you have your doin' horses. I think this is a big mistake. I dont want a horse of ANY size, that can only stand there and pose.

I know this is going off topic, and back to what Michelle stated- things dont always work out where the little horse has a lifetime home. I have had life changes a couple of times since getting into Minis and thought I was going to have to sell them all at one point- thank heavens I didnt because I was just sick about it all and wondering what would happen to my 'kids'.

The breeders that may not be into showing is ok. I know many breeders that dont show at all and nothing says that everyone should own a show horse. But the breeders must be careful about what they breed. They know that what they are putting out there on the market, whether it is for a pet or someone else to show, better be as good a one as they can possibly put out there.

The breeders are responsible for the market in it's entirety. So the breeders have a responsibility, above and beyond what show title someone might earn with a horse, to make sure the quality is there- or the attempt to produce such, and not just toss more low quality horses in an already crowded world.

Nobody is required to own a halter horse, or a performance winner. Nobody is required to breed- ever. But those that do must be responsible about it.

I do think this is a great discussion with many good points.


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## McBunz (Mar 23, 2007)

Thank you Sue... you said what I'll bet the majority ...if only silent majority would like to post.

I for one am not the least bit interested in showing.. did my stint with that with dogs... Know

what I like and will try to improve with each generation.. :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## Dontworrybeappy (Mar 23, 2007)

First of all, I have to say that I'm not specifically talking about anyone in particular at this forum - I've RARELY seen anything really rude on here (check out the old alt.rec.equestrian newsgroup lists if you want to see REAL flames!)

What I have never understood is the "us or them" mentality that permeates discussions like these.

It isn't "valued pet OR show horse" - they can be both!

It isn't "correct unregistered OR incorrect registered" or vice-versa.

It isn't "Show quality horse OR decent-minded individual"

We can have all this in every horse if we settle for nothing less... and there are registered horses with prices to fit every budget!

All of this said - you can't really breed "for the good of the breed" by breeding unregistered animals, although you can breed unregistered animals if that's what you want to do... no one's stopping you. Like Michelle said, though - think about what happens to those horses when/if they leave you or if you die.

And what I mean when I say that you can not breed for the good of the breed with unregistered animals is the plain and simple fact that if they aren't registered, they are, technically, and by definition, OUTSIDE of the breed.

They may look like registered miniature horses (or German shepherds, or Siamese cats) - they may be better individuals than some registered miniature horses (or dogs or cats), but a breed is defined by it's registries.

If you're brave enough to ask for opinions in any public forum, you also need to be aware that you are going to get just that - OPINIONS.

Jane and I may violently disagree with each other about something (not that I'm aware we have!



: ) - but you can believe that we've each come to our opinions through decades of experience, and that our own individual opinions have each worked for us, or we'd have changed them along the way!

JUST because we don't agree does NOT mean that we are "flaming" each other... we're just stating our own opinions.

It's the same with all of us - we all have our own opinions and beliefs and we're all entitled to them.... and we need to respect that about each other.

If you want to breed an unregistered stallion - than do it! Don't ask for people's opinions unless you want to hear them!

And remember that here on the forum we're all fellow forum members - we are all "US" - so, at least here, there's no "us VS them"! :bgrin


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## PaintedPromiseRanch (Mar 23, 2007)

well thought out post and many well thought out responses, from many different points of view, very interesting to read ! :aktion033: :aktion033:

from someone who does not show, i must agree that there are TONS of minis out there doing nothing more than bringing a smile to a family day after day... we also take our minis, both horses and donkeys, to visit retirement homes, we do pony rides every year for a special needs preschool... we love parades and hope to do more and more of them as we start our critters driving... the older i get, the less inclined i am to walk parades - this last one about did me in LOL. but EVERY time i take them ANYWHERE, there is SOMEONE who never saw one before (which i just cannot imagine!) and constantly the opportunity to educate the general public and promote these amazing animals. we have big horses too but have found there are so many people who are afraid of them, yet the minis can get through to them...



:


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## disneyhorse (Mar 23, 2007)

I totally agree with Dontworrybeappy.


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## billiethekid40 (Mar 23, 2007)

Warpony said:


> If there weren't so many horses in rescue or going through local auctions as weanlings and selling for almost nothing (if they sell at all) I would agree... I WANT to agree because deep in my heart more then anything I WANT to breed and I just can't afford a really fine quality herd. But I just can't look at the horses in need of homes and breed without feeling terribly guilty. If I breed it wouldn't be to sell, it would be to add another tiny horse to my family... but how can I justify that when I can just go to the auction, pay $25 for a weanling of the same quality I could produce or better, and save it from god only knows what horrors? I can't justify that. Not for myself.



I so agree with this. :aktion033:


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## disneyhorse (Mar 23, 2007)

Exactly, Warpony. There were two sorrel mini mules that I saw go through an auction here for $40 a piece. Not really attractive things, but they were still loving little animals that would make a good pet for someone who just wanted pets. I don't understand breeding "just because we love them and they are so cute and sweet."

Even those $40,000 show horses are cute and sweet when they are hanging out.

Andrea


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## CRERS (Mar 23, 2007)

disneyhorse said:


> I totally agree with Dontworrybeappy.


I agree as well - there are so many Miniatures going through the auctions lately. We were at a sale last fall and the Miniature colts couldn't be given away, even those that were registered. We took a coming 2 Y/O colt, the skinniest and sadest of the bunch, and that is saying a lot because most of those poor things looked like they'd been through it and back again, but this little guy looked like he had completely given up on life. It was honestly one of the most heartbreaking sales I've ever been to. I am very happy to say that our little is in a wonderful home now where he's doted on daily, but those homes seem to be far and few between for the influx of horses going through sales.

There is a broker close to us that has a bunch of Miniatures - they get shuffled from sale to sale, broker to broker, contracting strangles & injuries during their sad journeys. Another rescue recently saved a Mini that was in a holding pen with large horses who were beating the life out of him.......doesn't get much more depressing than that. Thankfully someone was there to save his life, but that doesn't happen more than it does.

At the sale we went to last weekend, there was an absolutely ADORABLE silver dapple miniature gelding who looked like he had a heart of gold and we wanted him so badly - sadly, another broker got him from the broker selling him and loaded him off before we could bid on him. He was loaded onto a packed trailer with all large horses.....I can't imagine it was pleasant for him. The reason I know he was loaded onto the packed trailer full of large horses was because an older woman was throwing a fit about all the kicking and screaming coming from that trailer as it drove off. Imagine being that tiny and trying to defend yourself from a scared group of large horses?

Registered horses aren't guaranteed a good life, but I do believe they have a better shot than unregistered horses do in MOST circumstances. Just my opinion from many days sitting at auctions and trying to keep my emotions in check as I see who is buying up those that go through. :no:


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## Danielle_E. (Mar 23, 2007)

> The other argument I hate to read - "I'm only breeding for myself and I'll keep any foal".


 I have more respect for the person who says this then some breeder that breeds more than they can handle and then has to DUMP them at a low end auction. As I said if you can't afford to keep what you don't sell YOU SHOULD NOT BE BREEDING MORE MINIS!!!! It has nothing to do with quality versus non quality. I have seen excellent quality get "dumped" in all breeds. I have seen on many forums, this one as well, where what is perceived as "quality" is truly NOT! Barn blind does not discrimate to big breeders or little breeders. I know I have gone to some site of what I would call breeders with excellent quality stock and seen some that are LESS quality and the big $$$ are still attached and I think, WHAT??? You wan't $5,000 for an animal that is worth perhaps $1,000. Why? Because of your name? No way.



> At the sale we went to last weekend, there was an absolutely ADORABLE silver dapple miniature gelding who looked like he had a heart of gold and we wanted him so badly - sadly, another broker got him from the broker selling him and loaded him off before we could bid on him. He was loaded onto a packed trailer with all large horses.....I can't imagine it was pleasant for him. The reason I know he was loaded onto the packed trailer full of large horses was because an older woman was throwing a fit about all the kicking and screaming coming from that trailer as it drove off. Imagine being that tiny and trying to defend yourself from a scared group of large horses?


And this is EXACTLY why a "reputable" breeder doesn't breed more than they can handle and retain until they can find suitable home for what they are breeding. I don't know how people who breed minis and don't give a rat's patootie what happens to them... how the heck can they sleep at night? seriously. Don't get me going about "reputable" .... I won't go into details but how would you like to purchase a mare who is bred... and then find out that this mare's filly that was born after you bought her and had a breeding certificate, etc. that this mare was bred by 3 different stallions!!!! and the line "who's your daddy" truly applies in this case. More power to the smaller breeder and larger breeder that is reputable and will hang on to their miniatures and not dump them at low auctions, I have absolutely no respect for those big or small that dump them at low auctions. If you find yourself in a situation where you are in a total bind then GIVE THEM TO A GOOD HOME, don't take the chance they will end up on a meat truck!!!!

This is something I am very passionate about, since I have a rescue (arabian) in my barn and I plan in the next few years to acquire more that are at risk going for meat.


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## SweetOpal (Mar 23, 2007)

Very good points for sure. I completely agree with [email protected]'s post and could not honestly think of a better way to state it.


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## ~Palomino~ (Mar 23, 2007)

disneyhorse said:


> Exactly, Warpony. There were two sorrel mini mules that I saw go through an auction here for $40 a piece. Not really attractive things, but they were still loving little animals that would make a good pet for someone who just wanted pets. I don't understand breeding "just because we love them and they are so cute and sweet."
> 
> Even those $40,000 show horses are cute and sweet when they are hanging out.
> 
> Andrea


Yah but some people forget what the TRUE pleasure of the miniature horse are and focus only on the $40,000.00 and not that it is a pet... I think Susan's point was more that just because you don't show and maybe because your intrests are somewhere other then showing (IE taking horses to nursing homes, parades, breeding, even if they arn't national champions) DOES NOT MEAN that you are irresponsible! Not everyones going to want a show horse and not everyones going to want somthing that is worth tons of money, and some people just want pets... whats wrong with that? Why does it have to be a national champion to have fun with it and be a pet?

like some people say, my horse is a national champion in my heart! Horses are not ALL about showing, and just because a registery picks up a standard of perfection doesent mean that should be the way everyone beleives in breeding...

And remember, Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, Rather AMHA/AMHR judges think it or not...

Don't get my wrong! I personaly want to get into showing and breeding nice horses, but just because I want to do that doesent mean EVERYONE should do that...

Gage


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## Reijel's Mom (Mar 23, 2007)

[email protected] said:


> The other argument I hate to read - "I'm only breeding for myself and I'll keep any foal".



Michelle -

Though I agree with most of your post this comment does get to me a bit. How is someone who breeds for themselves and PLANS to keep any foal any "worse" than someone who breeds and has a plan to sell, even on a very small scale? Yes, you may see to it that they are placed in homes that you believe to be responsible - but what if that home sells them, or sells the offspring of them, which is usually what happens in the horse world. In a way you are responsible, you helped to bring these animals into the world, and obviously the future generations are going to be around longer than you are - so I don't really see that as any different than a person who plans to keep any minis that they have bred and then passes away.

Interesting topic and opinions all around!


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## Chamomile (Mar 23, 2007)

:aktion033: to [email protected]

:aktion033: to Dontworrybeappy

Both of you guys said everything that I was thinking! Very well said




: I agree 100%!!


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## [email protected] (Mar 24, 2007)

_Michelle - _

Though I agree with most of your post this comment does get to me a bit. How is someone who breeds for themselves and PLANS to keep any foal any "worse" than someone who breeds and has a plan to sell, even on a very small scale? Yes, you may see to it that they are placed in homes that you believe to be responsible - but what if that home sells them, or sells the offspring of them, which is usually what happens in the horse world. In a way you are responsible, you helped to bring these animals into the world, and obviously the future generations are going to be around longer than you are - so I don't really see that as any different than a person who plans to keep any minis that they have bred and then passes away.

I guess I should clarify that as I breed for myself and do keep any foal until the right home is found or they become lifers here. I have a large retirement herd.

I'm not meaning it as a condemnation of people, just a reality check. I know personally, people that do breed for a variety of reasons, some very valid and others . . . well I'm not the judge & jury, but there are those long term consequences to consider. You're right about future generations of the minis I chose to produce, too. It took me a few years to get that myself. My original 'mentor' when I got minis was a breed them all and sell them all type. My whole thoughts on breeding have undergone dramatic shifts over the years away from that. I've become much more discriminating on which horses are bred and why. Not to say I have it right, but I do try to be thoughtful about what doing and not plan purely on an emotional or for a sentimental reason. Those do come along, but are not my driving force.

As for the steps I personally take, most of the contracts we write (not all as there are a few individual horses I hope never to see again!!), state that I have a buy back clause. It isn't likely to be enforeable, I know, but I do hope it keeps people honest. I also ask and about 85% of the people comply with keeping regularly in touch so I do know how the horses are doing - I call Christmas season the check in. I usually get updates then from people I don't hear from regularly. I have also sent people elsewhere that I didn't feel I wanted to sell to.

If there was a way to safely and inexpensively spay mares, I would do that to ones that I think should not be bred. As there isn't most stay here or go to a trusted home only.

Personally, I'm not selling TV's or cars - so I do care how they are and worry about there future. I referred two different buyers today to other breeders, as I don't have what they're looking for and I'm not going to try to make something fit that won't!


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 24, 2007)

There is also the unfortunate assumption that if you are breeding "just for yourself" it does not matter at all that you are breeding Tommy to Daisy and that neither have anything to offer- this justifies in your eyes keeping Tommy entire, totally.

I have also had this spun as a line to me in order to get foals cheap- and I do mean CHEAP.

"Oh we only want them as pets and to breed a foal just for us- to keep for ever." Of course those animals HAVE to be show quality (all this is rhetorical by now as I have lost interest and walked off!!) and the reason they should not have to pay "show price" is because the horses will just be pets!!

Sorry, I do NOT breed "pet" animals , deliberately, and you do NOT go to a breeder, especially one who will sell you something cheap anyway if you are genuine, and try to hoodwink them.

I know a lot of people are genuine in their desires BUT you just do NOT breed indiscriminately- whatever the reason.

How often have you rushed to gently dissuade someone from breeding their (very pretty) mongrel bitch "so she can have a litter"???

Why should it be any different with horses???

If you want a foal, get a good mare and breed her out to a better stallion- the result is still a foal born at home, just for you.

And a good one.

If you buy a good little colt with your filly, have him gelded and you also have the "family unit" you so much desire.

Why on earth would you buy a grade colt and a grade filly and breed them??

It is of course your business what you do in your own backyard but, please, do not come on a Forum like this and try to justify your doing it by saying you are doing people who want "pets" a favour, or inferring that we are all snobs because we prefer registered stock capable (in theory) of showing.

No, we are not snobs we are admirers of Miniature Horses- anything without papers is a grade PONY- a Miniature Horse is only something registered as such.

Just as a Doberman is a registered dog.

Mine are now all pets.

All neutered.

They are also ALL registered.

Anything else is a Mutt.

Still loved, still adored, still totally worthwhile.

Just not a Doberman.


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## Suzie (Mar 24, 2007)

It never fails to amaze me about all the people who come to my farm, see my horses and it sparks a love and interest in them that they were not aware of. That makes it all worthwhile to me. My horses have sparked a happiness in a lot of people...from just getting their picture taken with the smallest horse they have ever seen to allowing someone who has never driven a cart to take a ride that changes their whole idea of horses!

We selectively breed our horses, not every horse should be bred in my opinion. We strive to produce the best horse possible and so far, every foal seems to be better than the last! But we planned our breeding program. To be honest I have bought horses I will probably never breed. That does not diminish my affection for them. I bought them because I loved them, not as future income producers or baby producers.

We try to produce a BETTER horse with each foaling. That makes them hard to sell. Most people want pet quality to be frank and it is hard to sell a show quality horse for 1/3 his price. But we do it for the right homes. Homes where the horse will be appreciated and loved for his intelligence and temperament and beauty if he never hits a show ring.

I will never get rich doing this. I have a good job that hopefully will allow me to continue to eat 3 meals a day.

I will certainly never pay off my son's college loans doing this. But I will probably live longer, be absolutely be happier and retain my sanity by doing this. NOTHING makes me happier than watching my horses romp and play at the end of a very STRESSFUL day. I am living a dream that most people will never get to enjoy! Thanks to God and my wonderful horse friends....


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## McBunz (Mar 24, 2007)

Well going to be a nit picker just for the heck of it.. When you look at the pedigrees of a lot of top miniatures

there are a lot of unregisted horses in those pedigrees..or unknowns... and if the registeries had not closed

a lot more horses would probably be registered.. Bye the way mine are all reg. and I would not buy any that

are not.. but that is just me... Flame away if you must...



:


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## littlesteppers (Mar 24, 2007)

OOOOkay..I got thoughts too...sometimes :bgrin

What IF Buckeroo never had been shown? BIG promotions going on..would he not sit somewhere in a backyard and produce just as many gorgeous foals??

Just because owners don't promote or show..and CHOOSE to be condent with breeding..there horses could be just as beautiful.

I seen some darn handsome horses in backyards..Just NOT promoted.

Now if anybody buys a "GREAT" horses offspring..are they not just riding the promotion of the horses owners??



:


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## horsehug (Mar 24, 2007)

Thanks Everyone for all your sincere responses.

I just wanted to clear up a few things that seemed to come across the wrong way, even though I was trying to say things clearly. Writing has not ever been my strong suit 

I never wanted to give the impression I thought inferior animals should be bred. Several times I alluded to the fact that I think, like Littlesteppers said, that gorgeous champion quality, while it may never be shown, can just as easily MANY times come from small "unknown" farms. By the same token, I do not think every mini should be bred by any means! My reference at the beginning about showing my minis at our county fairs and saying that they were not even AMHA or AMHR sanctioned got folks going on the idea of breeding unregistered animals. What I was trying to say was that showing them at little fun shows or county fairs, ( at least in MY case) was a good way to get even more people to know about minis!

I personally have never bred unregistered minis yet. I have on occasion bought one, but I hardshipped in when I did that. I just choose not to judge those who do. I have seen unregistered foals going to absolutely wonderful homes where they are truly loved.

I also think, like I have heard said on here often, that keeping in mind there is no such thing as a perfect horse...... we each have our own checklist of which faults we consider major and therefore non breeding material, and which we consider minor, and therefore breedable but with the effort to complement with a breeding partner that is strong in that area instead of weak.

Just like we all do not agree on the "type" we prefer. I still feel like I said in my first post, for ME, it is very important to be breeding for animals with the conformation for living happy healthy lives, meaning the conformation to move comfortably, as well as eat comfortably, as well as foal easily. Many that fill these qualifcations would end up show quality for their type.

Others are breeding strictly with the hopes to excel in the show ring, and that is okay too!!

I also am sorry it seemed that I was causing a division. I truly meant that I think there are lots of ways to enjoy our wonderful little horses and I cheer on those I know who choose to show! But I also admire and cheer on those who are quietly enjoying theirs out of the public eye in whatever way they enjoy their minis. And I enjoy going to the small farms when I get a chance and seeing what fine minis many of them also have. As a matter of fact, about the only thing other than visiting my own human kids and grandson, that will ever get me away from my own small farm for any kind of vacation, is to visit other mini farms if I get a chance.

I also enjoy seeing the more well known farms' pictures........ show and otherwise, in the magazines. I always have enjoyed them!

I also wanted to say that I also tell my buyers if things do not work out, that they can bring the horse back to me. I HAVE bought back several horses over the years and either found another home for, or kept here as long as it lived. I feel I am responsible for the babies I raise........and no I would not continue to breed, if I could not find them what I consider to be good homes. But then I feel we are ALL responsible for taking care of the ones we raise. If EACH one of us did that, they would not end up in sad situations.

And yes, I try to keep in touch with those I sell to, and there are only a VERY FEW that I no longer know where they are after 19 years in minis.

I also admire those who do choose to rescue minis that are in need of rescue, because someone did not choose to take their responsibility seriously. Some people truly love doing rescue work also as their contribution and their niche in the mini world.

There will always be several ways to view any topic.

I just wanted to express mine, as I often think about lots of these things and thought that many folks are probably intimidated about expressing some of these things that I figured lots of folks probably also feel......so I thought I'd take a chance. I might have been a tad crazy, but I did it anyway. 

Thanks again to all of you on all sides, and to those who pm'd me also.

I appreciate your thoughts, even those who disagree with me on various points. 

Susan O.


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## nootka (Mar 24, 2007)

Bringing up papers vs. none, pet vs. show, big vs. small, etc. etc., is all beside the point.

If we toss all that out, our common, singular goal should be to breed the BEST, most correct and sound.

They MAY be for a pet, indeed, but if I were to buy a pet (now that I am educated), I have to say that I would still want one with good legs (no stifle problems, arthritis from poorly made joints, a nice stride), and good, long legs (not way out of proportion for the body), a nicely made neck, a pretty head, and all in proportion. I want a horse for a pet that LOOKS like last year's World Champion/National Champion. Yes, I DO.

Lets face it that many people "just" buying pets are not horse savvy. They don't know a bad stifle from a good one, nor do they recognize dwarf traits. I think it's reprehensible to take "poor" quality and breed for that type and call it "pets" as if it's something very noble. Pets are wonderful, but I guarantee you that the horse in my avatar, who is a local Grand Champion, he is relatively correct, and REGISTERED with both AMHA and AMHR (thanks to the fact that I hardshipped his dam), would make an awesome pet. He is NOT a spoiled show horse (well, he IS, but that's the Diva in him), nor are his legs "twigs that would snap." He IS a tiny bit heavier than most of the upper level champions, but it is not a fault, just an opinion-based thing. He is also a gelding, and 33" tall. Doesn't the pet market deserve at LEAST that quality? Maybe someone wants one under 28" but therein lies a difference of taste. I would be willing to bet that it exists out there.

Breeding FOR pets is merely a secondary goal, as all of them will be pets in one form or another, when it boils down to it.

If you want a pet, and then a baby, go rescue a mare that is at auction or owner-induced dispersal. Another pet? Go pick one up at the auction, but then don't throw them into a herd and start breeding just for pets. Take it up another level. You know the old "shoot for the moon you may just hit a star" way of thinking? If you're aiming low, then your "near misses" will be lower.

I would not think of trying to tell someone not to breed for their own reasons when they are responsible about it, but then it isn't very responsible to breed horses just as a companion to stand around out in a pasture, when you could likely ask around or go to an auction and find a pet there, one that needs a home, is born, etc.

Having a goal, having plans for breeding a type is not wrong, but it is wrong to be blind about it and think it is because of a snobbery relating to "registration status" or "show history" or "price of purchase." A poorly made horse is a poorly made horse. Yes, they can still be a pet, but they don't need to be bred to make more of them, no matter how sweet they are!!! And yes, many people come to look at them, and fall in love, but they also fall in love with nicer ones. I've had many large horse people see some of mine and be impressed for the nicer conformation and proportions, and maybe a light go on in their eyes, where they would tell me "Most of the minis I see are so small and short legs, long bodies, big heads, homely little things but cute." I hear that a LOT from people that know big horses, but rarely about my little guys even though they have NOWHERE NEAR the proportion I'd like, which is relative to a full-sized horse.

No, they don't have litters of babies, but there are still hundreds and probably thousands of Miniature horses out there who do need homes, including a few pregnant mares for that "have a baby" thrill.

Liz M.


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## capall beag (Mar 24, 2007)

Susan I think writing is your strong suit



: You topics are very well written.

I just read your most recent topic and you definately sound like you are doing the right thing with your minis!

Great topic, really interesting!


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## AppyLover2 (Mar 24, 2007)

Susan I, too, agree with your post.

I don't breed and probably never will (although all the gorgeous new babies this time of year makes me want to soooo bad). I only have 1 mare and 2 geldings.

There is something I keep seeing that really bugs me when people are telling others not to breed (for whatever reason ie, mare isn't good enough, stallion isn't good enough, one or the other (or both) aren't registered, the market is flooded, etc.). Over and over again (and I've seen something similar on this thread) people say things like the "big breeders don't always get show quality foals; some are pet quality". I wonder if, by making a statement like this, people are saying that the "big" breeders are producing enough of both kinds of mini, so nobody else should (or has the right to) breed?

If so, what kind of double standard is that? To say "well, I breed for 30 foals a year and if half of them are pet quality that means that other people (small breeders/back-yard breeders, call them what you will) have to breed less because of the 15 "pets" I will produce." 

IMHO it isn't the small breeders who are flooding the market. I'm sure that when mini's were "new" and more "unique" there was a huge market for them, and those people who were bringing 10, 20, 30 or more foals into the world every spring filled a need. But, I think that need has been met and we're now at the point when all breeders need to re-think breeding practices. But, that doesn't mean telling other people they shouldn't do it all when we aren't willing to cut back.

Gosh....it feels good to finally put that in writing!

Edited to add - Something else that bugs me when it comes to all this talk about too many horses. How many sale ads do you read that don't say something about breeding? Darned few I'll bet. If you don't think people should be breeding so many horses, you should quit using breeding qualities as a sales pitch.


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## kenna (Mar 24, 2007)

I don't think anyone means "big" as in "lots of foals." When I see someone say that, I take it to mean that no matter how great a breeder you are, no matter the quality of mare and stallion, there WILL be pet quality, and so no need to breed and badly conformed stallion to a worse mare FOR pet quality. And the horses that do come out beautifully and have great potential can also make wonderful pets WITH good conformation.


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## Joyce (Mar 24, 2007)

Susan, these were wonderful posts of yours here and though you say you are not good with words, I think you were great with your words. Everything you said was honest and sincere and I agree with you 100%.

I also agree with your liking the small ones as I do myself. I have dabbled with showing and one little colt I sold went on the AMHA Nationals in 1994 in Ohio and came out 4th in a stallion halter class, one of my proudest achievements with my minis. But what I enjoyed the most was my years of breeding and seeing that tiny little miracle come into life and second came the joys and happiness I see in folks eyes at parades I have done, nursing home visits and a Christmas tableau yearly which draws about 300 folks, young and old, at a local farm where I take one of my smaller mature miniatures each December. Thanks again, Susan, for this thread and I'm proud to be one of your mini friends.

Joyce


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## just2minis (Mar 25, 2007)

I like what Appylover2 (Donna) wrote. I am not good at putting my thoughts in writing but she nailed it for me.


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## Minimor (Mar 25, 2007)

> Over and over again (and I've seen something similar on this thread) people say things like the "big breeders don't always get show quality foals; some are pet quality". I wonder if, by making a statement like this, people are saying that the "big" breeders are producing enough of both kinds of mini, so nobody else should (or has the right to) breed?
> If so, what kind of double standard is that? To say "well, I breed for 30 foals a year and if half of them are pet quality that means that other people (small breeders/back-yard breeders, call them what you will) have to breed less because of the 15 "pets" I will produce."
> 
> IMHO it isn't the small breeders who are flooding the market.


 I haven't seen posts so much to the effect of "big breeders" producing pets--what I've read is more to the effect that even breeders using top quality, show champion stock for breeding end up producing a certain percentage of pet animals. When you can breed two top quality horses and come out with pet stock, why would anyone deliberately breed two pet quality animals with multiple faults, just for the sake of having a cute baby. That is what I read, which isn't quite the same as "big" breeders.

And yes, actually small (as in numbers) breeders are flooding the market. For every breeder that produces 40 foals a year there are probably 20 breeders producing 2 to 10 foals a year. It all works out to the same thing. In actual fact, all combined the small numbers breeders probably produce more foals than the big numbers breeders do, just because there are so many more of them.


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Mar 25, 2007)

Susan, WONDERFUL POST I agree with you 100%. I fall into the catagory of breeding, not showing. Everyone I have is registered and I have had alot of "show" people critique my foals, they have all told me they are definitely show quality and I need to get out and start showing, to get my name out there...know what...I have no interest in that end, but I love breeding and having my foals. That will never change! To me the most important factor when breeding is to find the "perfect" home for that baby, if the breeder is unable to keep that foal. Not everyones opinion is going to be the same for every horse, but the bottom line is the owner loves that horse regardless of faults and we should all learn to respect that. Corinne


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## AppyLover2 (Mar 25, 2007)

The term "big breeders" are the words I chose to use because I was trying very hard not to quote anyone nor point fingers at any one. You phrased the point I was trying to make much more eloquently than I did.



> When you can breed two top quality horses and come out with pet stock, why would anyone deliberately breed two pet quality animals with multiple faults, just for the sake of having a cute baby.


And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.

And, lastly, to me (with my herd of 3) someone who raises 10 foals a year is not "small".

Obviously, all of this is a matter of opinion. And we all know they're like belly buttons - everybody has one. But differing opinions doesn't give anyone the right to tell others what to do or not to do.

Again JMHO.


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## disneyhorse (Mar 25, 2007)

> And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults".


I feel if you "can't afford top quality horses" then NO, you shouldn't be breeding. Rather than buy three mares for $1,000 and a stallion for $1,000 and breed them to make more lesser-quality horses, you can spend $4,000 on a top quality horse, and then breed it to a National Champion stallion that you carefully select stud service for, if you MUST because you feel "deprived" of the joy and pride of seeing YOUR own foals born.

Top breeders usually (not always, but usually) have the land and money to invest in a top quality breeding program. They are striving to produce show quality horses that will advertise their farm and reputation.

I don't feel there is anything bad about "backyard breeders" that are willing to buy top quality horses for breeding. It's the ones who breed pet quality, NON-top-show-quality animals, just for their own personal greed, be it monetary or just greed that THEY want to experience having a foal, even if it's just generic and "cute". It's not hard to have quality versus quantity.

Andrea


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Mar 25, 2007)

well I think most of us know the reality is.. show quality or show record surely does not equal breeding quality. Many horses do well do to great handling, some are beautiful and cant come close to reproducing themselves...

Some people dont like to show and will not make that a part of there program that is never a decision maker or breaker for me in a purchase of a breeding animal. Heck I can take a top show horse walk it in the ring and get the gate cause I am not a good halter handler and someone else can take that same horse present it, condition it and walk out the winner the animal hasnt changed .

Of course that isnt an excuse for me to throw quality and conformation out the window my goal is to breed and own horses that with the right person presenting can hold there own and I am on my way to that heck some of my horses do good with me handling in spite of me.

If it were as easy as breeding a National champion to a National champion we would all have them - if it were as easy as paying big bucks for a horse to get a quality foal again there sure would be more quality then not. The key here for me and me alone is to be able to see my horses for what they are - to acknowledge there faults to see there good qualities. If I am unable to be honest with myself in that then i will never be able to make decisions to improve my own herd.

Do others do things different then I of course.. who is to say who is right? who is to say who cares more about the breed and ethics? Bottom line is I cannot change everyone else nor can I run there programs I can only strive to do the best I can with what I have, make decisions to improve and change my own herd and make sure i am as willing to see the flaws in my own program as I am to see it in others.

Bottom line is this is an argument we can have till the cows come home. If each one of us is doing the best that we can to improve our herd, our knowledge and the breed even though we are all at very different points in our journey with miniature horses then we are doing what we can.


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## Morning Dusk (Mar 25, 2007)

I just thought I would like to add something here if you didn't mind of course






Well see I have always been dreaming of getting a horse ever since I could remember, and my parents always told me that we couldn't afford one, but if we did have the money they would surely get me one no doubt. After countless times of begging and pleading [yes I did this!] with always the same answer every single time I then turned to miniature horses after seeing someone post about them on another forum I go to. Well after doing much much research I came to a decision that I wanted a miniature instead! I found that they are of course much cheaper than having up keep on a regular sized horse and you can do alot of stuff with them too! I am just so happy right now thinking that I will get a mini soon, to which I will. I have been currently saving up my money and just waiting until I can finally get a horse of my own.


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## horsehug (Mar 25, 2007)

Morning Dusk,

You sound like me....... from as early as memories go back for me!

Be sure to let us know when you do get your horse!! ))

Susan O.


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## Morning Dusk (Mar 25, 2007)

horsehug said:


> Morning Dusk,
> 
> You sound like me....... from as early as memories go back for me!
> 
> ...


Thanks Susan! And I will be SURE to let ya'll know when I get my mini ( If I can I'll drown ya'll with pictures



: )


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## Danielle_E. (Mar 25, 2007)

> And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.


First I would like to ask those that keep talking about "show quality" EXACTLY what your definition is. Some are speaking like "pet" quality are these deformed individuals



: What is your definition of "pet" quality??? Is "pet quality" any miniature horse that doesn't win at Nationals or make top 10???? It's a question that I have been asking myself because so many of you keep throwing out the terminilogy of "show quality". Is "show quality" minis that are shown period, whether at the local level or at Nationals? I have a gelding which I consider "pet" quality in the sense that he wouldn't win at Nationals BUT I showed him locally and he did well, he even beat my mare, lol, in one class and she IS what I call show quality. Now this gelding, Storm, who is not "National" material would be the one horse in my herd that I would NEVER part with



: . Why you ask? Because today my grandaughter (turned 5) and had a birthday party with a bunch of VERY loud children, lol. I still have a headache. This dear sweet, what you would call "pet" quality, allowed each child to ride him and in a calm and sane manner, with our dog trying to get into the action and running around like an idiot



: Each child had their picture taken and took that picture home with them. These kids had never been up close to a horse (full size or mini). This was a wonderful way to introduce them to equines and if you would have seen the look on these childrens faces..... So my so called "pet" quality gelding is WORTH HIS WEIGHT IN GOLD and I wouldn't trade him for ANY "show quality" based on the definition those of you who keep mentioning. I am not interested in showing at the National level first because of distance, there is absolutely no way that I can take the time out of my schedule as it is and make such a trip. I will be showing locally this summer. For some I understand that is what they aspire to, Nationals and I say more power to you but please don't put the so called "backyard" breeders down thinking they have inferior stock because they don't show. I am also going to say something that will probably make alot of people angry but it's something I have thought before this thread happened, thought it on other threads that have appeared here. Some that give an opinion on a thread, whether a critique, or when a "show quality" creeps up in a thread, well they perhaps are a little barn blind, like many of us, to what they have and yet they keep speaking as if their stock is ALL "show quality".... Okay my flame suit is on, fire away.

Oh the other statement that I don't agree with is the one where "show quality" minis have to be BIG $$$. Huh? So if the price tag is high and it comes from a well known farm, then you should buy it? even though you might have spotted a "show quality" mini for less $$ that you like but because it's from a so called "backyard" breeder it's not as good??? :no:


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## Marty (Mar 25, 2007)

Nevermind........I'm just shutting up..........it's safer that way!


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## kaykay (Mar 25, 2007)

i have purposely stayed off this thread but just cant tonight

why do these threads always turn into show vs non show. And why is it that if you show your horse is it implied that you dont love it as much as someone who doesnt show?? thats crazy!

some years i show a lot. some i hardly show at all. just depends on finances, life situation etc.

and then why do people say its all politics if a horse wins?? I am a NOBODY on the show circuit. we do everything ourselves. We work our butts off and manage to come out with ribbons and placings. Not because of politics but because of a lot of hard work and some nice horses.

EVERY horse has value. From the unregistered horse to the rescue that needed a home to the national champion. I love them all the same



:

I show because i love the feeling of belonging to a group that is as crazy as horses as i am. I can go to a show and talk horses non stop and i dont get the glazed over look lol. I have learned more about breeding, training etc after the show is over and we are all just sitting around then I could ever learn from a book


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## Buckskin gal (Mar 25, 2007)

I will give you my thoughts and feelings, since you asked. First, I don't think we all need to pay huge amounts to own quality horses...it does take some knowledge and time to acquire those quality horses. I am not a person that can take my horses to Nationals but even if I don't show I still want to breed for the very best I can, when I do a breeding. My horses are my enjoyment and I truly enjoy a beautiful animal. When most people talk about "pet" quality, I think they are referring to those who wouldn't do well in the ring...but having a "pet" is something different. A "pet" is one we sorta dote on and love to be around and it can be the quality to do well in the ring. For me the pride and joy comes form having these creatures, not from breeding them, but to own one that is gorgeous that I bred does make me feel good because that is what Ithink breeding should be about....breeding for a horse you think is gorgeous!.

Un fortunately when I hear of "pet quality" I do get a picture of something that would not do well in the ring. There is pet quality/show quality but that does not mean our show quality has to be shown. I figure it costs me just as much to maintain a "pet" quality as a "show" quality so why not have the show quality because they are more pleasing to my eye. Don't worry about what you have in your pasture as long as you enjoy it. But for breeding, look for quality because there is more to breeding than just having cute foals. Maybe you could stop seeing "Show quality"as something negative and just refer to horses that closely meet the Standard of Perfection as the kind to breed, if breeding has to be done. I do think "show quality" is referring to horses that will do well in the ring because they closely meet the Standard....but I am sure there are some that refer to theirs as "show quality" but really wouldn't do well in the ring. Even judges have different opinions and don't always pick the same for their choice. We have to remember that it is ourselves that needs to know the Standard of Perfection and not rely solely on what a judge may pick as their favorite. I don't feel bad if someone would call me a backyard breeder because I am just a humble 8 to 10 horse owner with no intention of ever doing a bunch of breeding....but I still will have the best I can here because I think if I am going to do any breeding, even one otr two a year, I should breed by the Standard because that is what it is for. As for a mini being better coming from a big breeder versus a small breeder, I tend to think the bigger breeder is going to be keeping their very best and selling the rest while sometimes a small breeder may let a good one go if it will be promoted and have a special home. Just my two cents in response to your questions. One thing about it, if we have really nice horses no one is going to put them down. Mary



Danielle_E. said:


> > And that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.
> 
> 
> First I would like to ask those that keep talking about "show quality" EXACTLY what your definition is. Some are speaking like "pet" quality are these deformed individuals
> ...


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## Leeana (Mar 25, 2007)

I will just go back to not sharing my opinion, not going to appologize for my opinion though.


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## Danielle_E. (Mar 25, 2007)

:aktion033: THANK YOU Buckskin gal for answering my post!!!



> why do these threads always turn into show vs non show. And why is it that if you show your horse is it implied that you dont love it as much as someone who doesnt show?? thats crazy!


Kaykay, I am sorry that you took the meaning of what has been said to mean that people who show their horses don't love their minis as much as people who keep them as pets and don't show. I didn't take any of this thread to mean that at all.

I guess I just don't like the termilogoy "show quality" and "pet quality". A "pet" doesn't always mean "non show quality" I think we need to start using two simple words "quality" versus non-quality based on the breed standard. I think that would probably stop the heated discussion because "show" and "pet" have absolutely nothing to do with "the quality" of the miniature horse.


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## Danielle_E. (Mar 26, 2007)

Okay, now I am with Marty :nono:



> Another thing to ponder on. Show history cannot always mean to much. Yes a horse may place 1st EVERY TIME and take so many grands ..but what do them other horses look like he/she is competing agianst. The other horses in that horses class may be pure crap quality ...that doesnt say anything for the horse that wins really IMO. If you want to see what is QUALITY winning you have to got to the big shows, not the local fairs.


The words "crap quality" and "what is quality winning you have to got to the big shows, not the local fairs". Those two things are extremely inflammatory and are what causes the division on this forum, that kind of mentality really drives me nuts



: . Crap quality is an oxymoron so you must be meaning "crap", crap and quality don't go together. On the second point the local fairs WERE the only avenue that miniature horse owners had to "show" their minis in for many years where I reside and it's only fairly recently that thanks to some dedicated individuals that we now have some recognized AMHR shows in our province. I have seen some VERY well bred minis at local fairs that HAVE gone on to U.S. Nationals and made top 10. I find it EXTREMELY offensive and quite ignorant that such a statement would be made. Am I surprised? No, given some of the things I have read by some breeders in this thread. I am done with this topic if that is the mentality that is out there.


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## Marty (Mar 26, 2007)

_Another thing to ponder on. Show history cannot always mean to much. Yes a horse may place 1st EVERY TIME and take so many grands ..but what do them other horses look like he/she is competing agianst. The other horses in that horses class may be pure crap quality ...that doesnt say anything for the horse that wins really IMO. If you want to see what is QUALITY winning you have to got to the big shows, not the local fairs._

YIKES! Now that's harsh!


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## Minimor (Mar 26, 2007)

> But differing opinions doesn't give anyone the right to tell others what to do or not to do.


Of course not. But, when someone comes on here, posts a photo, and asks 'is this horse worth showing'--chances are, to some the horse will be worth showing. To others, the horse will not be worth showing. If I were to reply "I wouldn't show that horse" I am not telling the owner what to do....I am simply posting my opinion and saying that if the horse were mine, I wouldn't show him. Take that however you like, but it's simply answering the question. If the owner doesn't want to hear anything negative, then he or she should say " is this horse worth showing? Please don't answer unless you are going to say yes!" I have some horses which I feel are not worth showing, and I will not show them. I have others that I feel have a chance in the ring. No doubt there are people who would feel those horses are--by their standards--not worth showing. That's perfectly fine. I'm simply not going to post pictures and ask for everyone's opinions. Why not? Because it doesn't matter. They're my horses & if I choose to show them I will--as long as I believe in them, that's all that matters to me. If they win, great, if they don't, well, then they don't. Another day they might. Or maybe they won't.
And please, in my mind there is a difference between pet and pet quality. A pet can be anything from someone's dwarf to someone's national champion. Pet quality, however, isn't likely to win champion anything--and yes, pet quality most probably does have some faults. Plural. If it didn't have faults, it probably wouldn't be "pet quality". And sure, everyone has different ideas as to what is or isn't show quality, breeding quality or pet quality. But don't get your knickers in a knot because you think I (amongst others) consider pet horses to be poor quality just because they are pets and not show horses. That is not what I said.


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## Tango (Mar 26, 2007)

This has been a great topic. Everyone has very valid points and everyone's opinion counts. There is a mini for every person and every puprose. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder and "show quality" is the opinion of the judges.

In my opinion, for those that truly would like to see improvement in the quality of minis being bred, whether by "pet" breeders or "show" breeders, then Geld, Geld, Geld! For anyone that feels that someone else's breeding program is inferior to their own, take a good honest look at your own programs, then make sure those colts that you produce are gelded before leaving the farm unless those colts have been proven in the show ring. That would be a first step in the direction of helping to insure that better quality stock is available for breeding. That would also help to increase the value of the miniature as a breed. If there are fewer "inferior" stallions to be had then better quality stallions will be available and more geldings will be available to fill the "pet" market.



:

Nikki Faubus


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 26, 2007)

Quote:-

that statement proves my point. Why would anyone....? Maybe because the majority of us can't afford "top quality horses"; and just because we can't it doesn't mean we should deprive ourselves of the joy and pride of seeing our own foals born. Also, you're assuming that because they're "pet quality" they will have "multiple faults". I think it's comments like that one that make us "pet" owners cringe when we hear the term "pet quality". Pets aren't deformed creatures who are hidden away in the back pasture. They are affectionate and cute and those of us who have them are darned proud of them. I'm sure I enjoy watching my pets play in the pasture as much as others enjoy watching their top quality horses. And I know they bring me as much joy when they nicker softly to me or give me horse hugs.

OK, second go at this!!! (I just deleted a whole lot



)

IF you cannot afford good stock you wait.

Simple as that, you wait until you can.

Believe it or not we cannot all have exactly what we want at exactly the moment we want it.

We have to be able to afford it and, if we can't we have to be able to save and get it.

You can jump up and down and shout that your Skoda (VW whatever- I am not very good at cars!!) is as good as an Alfa Romeo (Porsche, whatever) BUT at the end of the day saying it isn't fair you can't afford a Porsche will not get you one.

And, were you able to breed cars, breeding two VW's together would NEVER get you a Porsche and if that were your aim it would be ludicrous.

If however you wished to breed VW's- well, fine, just stop saying they are Porsches really!!

If you want to breed Miniature horses WHY would you not get good quality animals- if you want to breed ANYTHING why on earth would you not get good quality animals??

Why, in this day and age when we hear every day of high class animals, often in foal, going for a song in auctions, would you choose to breed animals ONLY capable of being pets??

Buy a second hand horse down on it's luck, from a market, and love it- it will be more than happy being a pet, believe me!!

"Pet quality" to me means it has a number of qualities I would not find desirable in a breeding animal- it has NOTHING to do with "Showing" at all- I have in fact had a number of animals over the years that I have not, for various reasons, shown, but that have made very good breeding animals.

There is nothing wrong with breeding two second rate animals and having a foal for yourself if that is what you want, and so long as nothing about them is life threateningly wrong- there is nothing right about it, either and it is contributing NOTHING to the good of the breed.

I am attempting to better the breed, I do not sacrifice temperament, I do not sacrifice conformation, I do not cut corners nor use sweats nor digitally enhanced photos to lull you into thinking that my horses are better than they are.

Do I always have top quality animals??

Show animals??

No, of course not- I have a really nice colt at the moment who would be a wow in harness, but is just a wee bit too heavy for Halter- IMO- BUT he is sound, has a movement to die for, has a good nature even though at present he is ungelded.

He also has two fully descended testicles, is fully halter trained and good to clip his feet are pared and he is ready to go.

He stands 291/2" at coming one year old and is a lovely boy.

If you came to me for a pet this is what I would suggest, and you could buy him from me, so long as you were the right home, for around $600.00- if you were buying two together I would give a concession as gelding two is a bit more expensive- the only other colt I have is a 25" top show quality in every way boy- you could buy him on a gelding contract, to be a well loved pet, for the same money as what I want for my animals is GOOD HOMES!!

I could not care a fig if they are shown or not- of course I like seeing them shown, it is great, but if they are bought as pets, well, the first thing is that they are well loved and looked after- isn't it??

OK, sorry, I am hogging the thread- I will stop now and let someone indignantly rip me to pieces



:


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## miniappy (Mar 30, 2007)

I havent joined this forum, as I have found it, and others, only results in hurt feelings BUT...this subject is just too close to my heart to ignore! In this land of the free, any American is due their opinion. My Fore fathers fought and died for the right of free speach, and our own personal opinion!!!! These are our given rights as Americans! These little ones are here for us to love and cherish, not to fight as to who's horse should be gelded, who's horse is "pet" quality, or who should be shown. This is a venture that is suppose to be full of love and caring persons towards minis!!! (and each other) I do not imply that I am in any way an expert, but the experence I have had with showing and trainers, is devestating. I dont have the heart to not let a horse (or any animal) be allowed to be what God intended. Happy, healthy, and able to have a full life. I have beautiful horses, I have bought from beautiful people, and only 1 person had the opinion that my stallion wasnt good enough to bred, and should be a gelding. Well he isnt, and throws beautiful foals that have made many happy, isnt that what we are doing? Putting smile on peoples faces? All things arent for all people, its that American thing again. Susan O. You keep up the work you are doing promoting these guys for what they really are, ADORABLE!! Thats just my opinion. Connie Roundy


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Mar 30, 2007)

I guess I feel a bit differently. I wish that people who want to raise "just pet quality" would go and pick up those cheap auction babies and raise them to be the affectionate and wonderful pets that they want. Just because it wasn't born on your property with you watching doesn't make it need a home any less. The "not show quality" horse need can well be filled by the breeding of great horses simply because not every cross works. I feel it is our responsibility to the breed to do our level best to better it. Crossing the cow-hocked, hunchbacked, toed out stallion to the mare with an off bite, bad stifles and neck coming out from between her front legs just because YOU want a baby is just plain stupid and selfish in my opinion. That doesn't mean snobbery or that only "perfect" (no such thing) horses should be bred...just that there are certain faults and combinations of faults that should not be, IMHO.

There are TOO MANY horses being produced--period. Go to any sale, check any local paper or feed store bulletin board and you will see pets that need homes. I think it would be more rewarding to save a life that way. I don't breed. As much as I love to think of a couple of sweet little babies, I just won't do it. Am I depriving myself? Well maybe a touch, but my own need to cuddle a baby can be filled other ways that don't involve bringing more animals into a world already filled to the brink and pushing over into sale pens and slaughter trucks.

There....those are MY thoughts.


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## Danielle_E. (Mar 30, 2007)

> Crossing the cow-hocked, hunchbacked, toed out stallion to the mare with an off bite, bad stifles and neck coming out from between her front legs just because YOU want a baby is just plain stupid and selfish in my opinion.


Is this what all of you consider "pet quality"???? That is why I asked earlier what your definition is of "pet quality" versus "show quality". There are "pets" out there who are nothing like what is described above and yet the minute the word "pet" is mentioned you seem to attach the subjective word "quality". The two do NOT have to go hand in hand and for some reason some here seem to assume that if you say "pet" it means inferior comformation, WRONG. Pet means exactly that, it is not an animal that is being shown by choice of the person who owns it. The terms that should be being used is "quality (meaning breed standard)" and "non breed standard" because you are truly missing the mark when using the term "pet" in conjuction with quality. All my minis are "pets" at the moment and all conform to the breed standard and certainly could be shown. Would they win a Championship class at Nationals?? Who knows, one could certainly BUT you have to remember that judging is very subjective and what wins one day does necessarily win the next day or at the next show.

I have to add that I personally do not know anyone on this forum that is breeding what is quoted above but I do know many people who have their minis as "pets" and breed them and sell them to other people who also want them as "pets".


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## Buckskin gal (Mar 30, 2007)

Connie, I can only speak for myself and I certainly don't want any one to have hurt feelings...we have to keep in mind that after giving very careful thought to why we are breeding then we make the choice. I know it can be be a wonderful experience to have foals and to have buyers that truly are good owners and enjoy them. But...we always have to keep in mind that even though we can breed horses doesn't make it always the right thing to do. Personally, I think breeding is something that shouldn't be done just because we enjoy it because we have to look at the whole picture of these neat little horses. Yes, it is a pleasure to see people enjoy them/take good take care of them but not all horses end up in a situation like that. Many are abused, starved, lonely, neglected, not wanted after getting them etc. and this is a side that many breeders do not look at or care about. What I truly believe, is that we have to put our own enjoyment of breeding second to making sure the ones we bring into the world have a full life of always being wanted and cared for. It is the responsibility that has to be put ahead of just our enjoyment of these living creatures. I totally agree that any person is due their opinion and that is why we should allow each their opinion and not get hurt feelings. Wehave freedom but we also have the responsibilities that come with that freedom...just because we are free to do something does not always make it right. especially when we are taling about bringing lives into this world that have to be considered. Just like people have the right to bring children into this world ...just because they can does not make it always right for the child. If a person can afford the costs of doctors, food, shelter etc. and can provide for all the needs of that child. only then should they have that child....and I don't mean depend on the government AND OTHERS for those needs. Same with bringing ur minis into the world.

I haven't seen where anyone was denied their opinion on this thread...all I see is a difference of opinions, some with passion. No fights are intended...only thought provoking opinions, as it should be. We can't just consider our rights ...we should also be considering the rights of animals which we are responsible for coming into this world. This said, I have had no intention of hurting any feelings and I hope you just read this as an opionion rather than an attempt to hurt feelings....don't have time for that kind of nonesense. To sum this up, I believe we all have to be very thoughtful when bringing lives into this world ...JMHO




: mARY



miniappy said:


> I havent joined this forum, as I have found it, and others, only results in hurt feelings BUT...this subject is just too close to my heart to ignore! In this land of the free, any American is due their opinion. My Fore fathers fought and died for the right of free speach, and our own personal opinion!!!! These are our given rights as Americans! These little ones are here for us to love and cherish, not to fight as to who's horse should be gelded, who's horse is "pet" quality, or who should be shown. This is a venture that is suppose to be full of love and caring persons towards minis!!! (and each other) I do not imply that I am in any way an expert, but the experence I have had with showing and trainers, is devestating. I dont have the heart to not let a horse (or any animal) be allowed to be what God intended. Happy, healthy, and able to have a full life. I have beautiful horses, I have bought from beautiful people, and only 1 person had the opinion that my stallion wasnt good enough to bred, and should be a gelding. Well he isnt, and throws beautiful foals that have made many happy, isnt that what we are doing? Putting smile on peoples faces? All things arent for all people, its that American thing again. Susan O. You keep up the work you are doing promoting these guys for what they really are, ADORABLE!! Thats just my opinion. Connie Roundy


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## SilverDollar (Mar 30, 2007)

I have really enjoyed reading this thread. Lots of thought-provoking opinions. I am not a breeder nor do I even intend to be; my heart lies in rescue--too many needy ones out there. That being said, though, I do agree that if you're going to breed, then breed the best to the best. Nature allows the survival of the fittest and the natural culling out of the weakest of a species. Personally, I believe breeders have that responsibility, too. (No, I DON'T mean that breeders ought to kill off the less-desirable offspring!)  Just that they have a responsibility to try and avoid offspring with known congenital traits or deformities.

This thread reminds me of when my husband and I were undergoing infertility treatments. (Never did have kids but lots of horses instead.)



I remember friends of mine at the time who were also undergoing treatments and some were selecting donors from sperm banks and others were selecting egg donors. I have to tell you that there was never a demand for certain qualities in donors (high-school dropouts, homely ones, super-short or bowlegged). Now no offense is meant to anyone with those traits, but they were not at the top of the list of desired donors that people were willing to pay a lot of money to. And not that children with those traits are loved any less by their parents. The most popular donors were the beautiful, Harvard-graduates with perfect teeth, hair and skin. Now what does that tell you about what humans want??



: I just thought the similarities are quite ironic to the animal breeding world.

JMHO.


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## AppyLover2 (Mar 30, 2007)

Just a comment about a thought that crossed my mind the other day.

Does anybody know of any other breed of horse who is classified as "pet quality"?? Or, for that matter, any other animal?? I've never heard of pet appaloosas or pet quarter horses. There are working dogs and show dogs but I've never heard of pet dogs (although I would imagine that's what 95% of the people around the world have).

My horses are "pets" because that's what I choose to do with them. IMO "Pet" is the life an animal leads........not what that particular breeding produced.

And Jane your comment "we cannot all have exactly what we want at exactly the moment we want it" is true. At 65 I've learned to wait and completely agree with you. But wait for what?? Wait until somebody else tells us that we have something worth breeding?


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## disneyhorse (Mar 30, 2007)

AppyLover2...

I think the largest difference between minis and "other horse breeds" is that miniature horses have such a large percentage of gross conformation issues compared to other breeds of horses and ponies... and most are not culled out to auctions and feed lots because of their small size. It costs a LOT to just feed a "pet" big horse, while a mini can more easily purely be a pet.

In larger horse breeds, if you cannot use it due to medical or severe conformation issues, it generally ends up at auction or slaughter. Big horses break down faster with the conformation faults that minis tend to have.

I think AS A WHOLE the "quality" of miniature horses is much, much poorer than most other breeds.

Most people who are unfamiliar with miniature horses always comment to me "Wow your little guys don't look like the stumpy-legged big-headed minis I usually see!" which confirms my observations.

I browse miniature horse sites here on Lil-Beginnings, and I browse horse sites of other breeds I am interested in, and the vast majority of poor-quality minis would not be useable at all as a larger animal.

And as to dogs, there ABSOLUTELY is pet quality dogs and show quality dogs. Reputable breeders sell their pets (usually only one or two out of a litter at most are "show quality") as a limited-breeding registration. I bought my mini aussie at a pet price. The show dogs sold for a lot more and there was no spay/neuter in the contract for those dogs.

Andrea


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 31, 2007)

There is also the difference with Minis that EVERYONE (with a few notable exceptions) seems to think they can buy a couple and make money!!

No-one would do that with dogs or QHs for that matter.

I would LOVE to be able to sell my foals on a "no breeding" policy- I should be able to put it on the papers, as I can with my puppies, and sell the foal at a reduced price.

But I cannot and, even if I sell on a no breeding contract it is unenforceable and, one the papers are transferred the registry will register the foals, irrespective of the agreement I have with the purchase.

Anyway I am sure that someone would tell me I have no right to do that as they have a right to breed the animal they have bought!!!

Basically it is not a matter of pet quality/show quality.

I tend not to get foals with cow hocks, ewe necks etc.

For me, to breed, a stallion/colt has to better than good.

Much, MUCH better.

So, automatically 80% of my colts are pets.

They are probably still better than a lot that are bred- so what??

I do not consider the breeding standard and I have bred them so they are gelded or go on a gelding contract.

I cannot do that with the equivalent fillies- and I still do get a few that are plain, or heavy or whatever.

What I am trying to say is they are not up to MY standard and I bred them, so I should have the final say in whether they go out into the world, with my name on them, as breeding animals.


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## Tony (Mar 31, 2007)

Beautifully put, Susan.


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## miniappy (Mar 31, 2007)

I stand corrected. I was in dog showing for 20 years, and I did have pet quality pups, and show quality. All my little ones are pets. I do not breed for numbers or money, There are no cow hocked, hunchbacked, towed in, horses on my place. First thing I tell a buyer, if they need to get rid of foal they bought from me, to please give me the chance to buy back. I also contact them, to inquire as to how things are going, and offer any advise or help with their new baby. I am not a mass producer of foals, I agree anything can be over bred. I just have a passion for these guys, and with 45 acres, I can afford to have a few. I have rescued a number of horses this past year, but it wasnt from people over breeding, or buying horses they find they dont want. It is always a serious health problem with owner, the last 4, the lady cried like a child as she cold no longer take care of herself, let alone anything else. So there are many reasons to bred or not to bred. It is a personal decision, and hopefully a well thought out one. I will leave it at that, but I do appreciate all replys, I fell you learn from others, and I would like to know all I can, to keep my horses safe and happy! Thanks you all for your valued opinions! Connie Roundy :saludando:


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Mar 31, 2007)

I think there is a big misunderstanding here that show quality means not a pet or that what we are calling "pet quality" is a bad thing. ALL of my horses have ALWAYS been pets! When I was showing AQHA and apps and later saddlebreds--they were all pets....but they were show quality, well put together pets. I REFUSE to tell someone "yeah yeah, SURE you should breed your little goose-rumped. horiibly conformed stallion and mares since they are SO sweet."!!

People are getting offended here about the term "pet quality" when for the sake of the breed and breeding it it is usually meant as "not breeding/showing quality". I have been to exactly one AMHR show, several WC shows and lots of open and carriage driving shows. I have yet to see a perfect horse, but I have sen many that in my opinion should not have their faults bred on. I guess it is a good thing we have the freedom of speach and choice. People are free to breed those faults back into the lines, but it sure isn't helping the breed at all in my opinion! I would LOVE to see a breed standard inforced...I really would! My biggest pet peeves in breeding are the stifle and suspensory problems (along with dwarf traits of course). One of my favorite horses out there is a silver dapple app with dwarfy ears and a bad done--but MAN can he drive! Those ears and head would sure rule him out of any breeding plan for me. Luckily his former owners saw that and he is an awsome gelding. He is a great ADS horse, a great pet, a great little ambassador--but he is NOT breeding quality--no shame in that.

Pet quality (not to be confused with being a good pet--which seems to be a hot button and very misunderstood) only means that it has faults that most people don't want bred back into the lines! Every horse we breed now will have an affect on generations to come. This "oh but I love him /her and want more of him/her" attitude without really looking at what you are breeding and taking into consideration the future generations is only going to perpetuate the faults we see today and make them worse.


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Mar 31, 2007)

I think the focus on pet vs show quality is a moot point. No one can legitimately claim their foals are show quality until that baby steps in the ring and has been judged to meet the standard of perfection closely enough to consistantly win against others in their league. I would love to see even see once a breeder advertise only that the foal may have the potential to do well but to claim it is from the start is a falacy.

Most minatures do go to pet homes but that is not reason enough to produce them for the sake of producing them because it makes someone happy to pump a few foals out every year. The breeder's farm is rarely the last stop for that animal and the focus should always been on that animal's future not someone's momentary pleasure. Which leads to the line of thought that to breed mediocre animals just because it is a right is not only a disservice to the breed but it is without thought to the kind of existence a less than high quality horse may be leading for the remainder of it's days. Quality is no gaurantee a horse will remain loved and wanted its entire life but it sure doesn't hurt their chances either.


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## RGKminiatures (Mar 31, 2007)

billiethekid40 said:


> Warpony said:
> 
> 
> > If there weren't so many horses in rescue or going through local auctions as weanlings and selling for almost nothing (if they sell at all) I would agree... I WANT to agree because deep in my heart more then anything I WANT to breed and I just can't afford a really fine quality herd. But I just can't look at the horses in need of homes and breed without feeling terribly guilty. If I breed it wouldn't be to sell, it would be to add another tiny horse to my family... but how can I justify that when I can just go to the auction, pay $25 for a weanling of the same quality I could produce or better, and save it from god only knows what horrors? I can't justify that. Not for myself.
> ...



I bought my first mini at a auction. His legs aren't perfect and he will be gelded but I will use him to help children love horses and also as a therapy horse for the nursing homes in the area. My breeding line will take a long time to get going but I bought the best I can afford and hope to have a wonderful time learning about the breed and how to show them.


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## Margo_C-T (Mar 31, 2007)

I spent last evening and just now reading every post in this thread; FairytailGlenn, Buckskin gal, Triggy, 'Fizzy--I especially admire and respect your posts and your positions!

It appears to me that in the 'pet vs show "quality" debate, it is being assumed that the reference is to showing ONLY IN HALTER(which are 'supposed to be' conformation/adherence-to-breed-standard, classes--but so often, really aren't....and not just in miniatures!) -- in other words, if a given horse probably wouldn't 'win big' in HALTER, it is referred to as 'pet' quality. This is a very misguided approach. I like 'pretty' as well as anyone, but believe me when I say that my top priority is NOT how much a horse might win/has won in the breed Halter show ring!

Almost ANY horse, ESPECIALLY miniature horses, can be a (great)pet; properly handled and treated. What should be remembered is that IF you want even a "PET" to be able to do more than just stand around and look cute, they need to have a certain level of correct conformational components--and since horses that ARE conformationally correct can be as 'cute' as any, AND stand a better chance of being able to 'do' the kind of things humans want to 'do' with them, then why not try one's best to produce the correct ones? Horses, big or small, evolved needing to be athletic(they had to be, or be caught/killed by predators!) Mankind, not natural evolution, has created miniature horses; almost no miniature horse, esp. those that are truly small, has much of a chance against predators, no matter HOW athletic the horse, for the very REASON of their small size(therefore, their safety becomes our human responsibility). However, they are still horses, and if they are to be able to 'perform' (i.e., as driving horses, Hunter/Jumpers), they may well be able to do so, and capably, even if they aren't "halter horses' per se...when they are pretty conformationally correct. I agree w/ Disneyhorse; there are LOTS of conformational flaws within miniatures, many of which would mean immediate disqualification as performance animals in other breeds...yet are tolerated and in fact, passed on. Honestly, I think this is in MANY instances due to a basic lack of deep and genuine knowledge of conformational features AND how important each is to atleticism and long-term soundness, among many who 'get into' miniatures. JMHO--no one who does not have a lengthy history and background in that specific area should be a 'breeder', especially one who breeds to sell, of animals--most specifically, dogs and horses! Own them, love them, enjoy them, show them, if it suits you--by all means!---but don't 'become a breeder'!

My ole hide is thick, so I don't bother with a flame suit.....

Margo


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## Mercysmom (Mar 31, 2007)

Reijel's Mom said:


> Warpony said:
> 
> 
> > If there weren't so many horses in rescue or going through local auctions as weanlings and selling for almost nothing (if they sell at all) I would agree... I WANT to agree because deep in my heart more then anything I WANT to breed and I just can't afford a really fine quality herd. But I just can't look at the horses in need of homes and breed without feeling terribly guilty. If I breed it wouldn't be to sell, it would be to add another tiny horse to my family... but how can I justify that when I can just go to the auction, pay $25 for a weanling of the same quality I could produce or better, and save it from god only knows what horrors? I can't justify that. Not for myself.
> ...


Excellent posts from all! :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:



:

We never know what will happen each day that we wake up to face another day.... I consider myself lucky and my horses fortunate everyday we are healthy and problem free.



:

That is what makes horses so intriguing to be around... being the perpetual student!

Denise

Silversong Farm


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## mad for mini's (Mar 31, 2007)

Interesting posts , Some I totally agree with , some I don't but can understand where they are coming from and one in particular that totally infuriated me.( hence I had to post this) I myself own four , a stud colt( for now) and three fillies . I feel that if a responsible owner wanted to breed thier horses, that is thier right. (emphasis on responsible). I am sure that there are many so called "show quality" horses leading peaceful backyard lives that will never be seen or have a title applied to their name. That does not make them any less valuable or breedable than something named " National " this or that. And NO ONE has the right to judge or condemn a responsible so called "pet quality"owner because they would like to breed thier own and have thier farm name placed on a foal of their own breeding. Especially if it is only to add to the owners own herd, as long as they are capable of keeping and caring for it responsibly. NO ONE has the right to try and deny any owner that feeling of pride and accomplishment . Even if it doesn't add up to some judges view of " breed standard". I am not saying that obvious, health compromising, faults are OK to breed, anyone intentionaly breeding a known fault which results in the suffering of a horse should be :new_2gunsfiring_v1: just that someone that is happy with the way their horses look and want to try breeding a few of thier own they should be able to without getting attacked for it. I myself would like to see a foal of my own, with my name, but can't justify placing my girls at risk to see it happen.



:

Edited to add : Do you think a so called " pet quality" owner that was to breed and get only a few foals , say two or three , make them a breeder? I consider breeders to be someone that does this year to year and mostly for a so called "profit".


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## Tabitha (Mar 31, 2007)

> just that someone that is happy with the way their horses look and want to try breeding a few of thier own they should be able to without getting attacked for it.


I would quite agree. But, I would also add that if someone, anyone, is so happy with the way their horses look and want to try breeding (or showing) those horses, then they would be happier if they just went and did it without first asking "do you think this horse is good enough". I've been asked in person if I think a certain horse is worth breeding, then I do some split second decided, does this person really value my opinion and want my judgment, or does he/she simply want approval. If I figure the person just wants approval, I just turn around and ask a few questions of my own--what stallion are you thinking of breeding her to? Or "how many mares do you have" A few questions like that & then I'm long gone before the person realizes I never actually answered. If they want to breed their horses, go for it, just don't seek my approval first! :lol: 
I frequently see dog breeders advertise two price levels: pet quality pups and show/breeding quality pups. I've always assumed that in most cases the pet quality pups are required to be spayed/neutered and therefore the new owners never expect to use them for breeding. With Minis, so many pets are bought entire and then the buyer starts thinking how cute it would be to raise a foal or two or three, and that makes it quite different from in the dog world. Oh, I've used that dreaded pet quality term :new_shocked: . Sorry.



> Almost ANY horse, ESPECIALLY miniature horses, can be a (great)pet; properly handled and treated. What should be remembered is that IF you want even a "PET" to be able to do more than just stand around and look cute, they need to have a certain level of correct conformational components--and since horses that ARE conformationally correct can be as 'cute' as any, AND stand a better chance of being able to 'do' the kind of things humans want to 'do' with them, then why not try one's best to produce the correct ones?


This says it quite well for me. My horses are all pets, but they are also show and using horses--they're pretty and correct and if I want them to be something more than mere pets, they can be that for me. In my books that makes them something more than pet quality, because to me "pet quality" means the horse really isn't well suited to anything but being a pet. Sure, he may drive but he doesn't shine in harness, and he hasn't the conformation to win at halter. I'm thinking I really don't have a problem with the term "pet quality". And to me, 'show quality' isn't just about the halter horses, it's also about the driving horses, whether they are showring driving type or CDE type. I have a filly here now that I consider show type--I'm not sure she will do halter (IMO her croup needs to be just a bit more level if she were going to be a good halter horse), but when it comes to driving she shines, and belongs in the ring. She is not merely "pet quality".



> No one can legitimately claim their foals are show quality until that baby steps in the ring and has been judged to meet the standard of perfection closely enough to consistantly win against others in their league. I would love to see even see once a breeder advertise only that the foal may have the potential to do well but to claim it is from the start is a falacy.


I disagree with this. I agree that saying "this horse will win National Championships for you" is really a guarantee of sorts and I really don't think any seller can honestly guarantee any such thing--in this respect I do agree with Triggy that the ad should state "this horse has the potential to win National championships for you". As to the part about no one being able to claim that their foals are show quality--yes, I do believe that a knowledgeable breeder should have the ability to judge his foals & decide which are show quality and which are not. This is assuming that the breeder knows his shows and the different levels of competition. I've had breeders point out each foal and tell me if each foal will or won't make a show horse. They've told me that this one has the quality to go to Nationals, while that one over there would show locally, but there would be no point in hauling it to Nationals, while the one further over won't show in halter at all but it's going to make a heck of a driving horse. And this one right here needs to go to a family with kids, because it's just the perfect family horse and might do 4-H, but it really isn't a show horse as such. A knowledgeable breeder that isn't barn blind will have some idea of how their foals will fit in with what is out in the ring winning.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 1, 2007)

I breed show quality Miniatures- I cannot see the point of breeding anything else.

I am quite happy for any and all of my animals to go as pets- in fact I am VERY happy for them to go as pets and will even adjust the price accordingly for a gelding contract - but NOT on a filly as I will find out, as I have done to my cost - that this "bought as a pet" animal is being shown and bred form in a couple of years time!!

Why would you breed mediocre animals- I am not talking about faults here, or unsoundnesses I am talking about mediocre- when you can breed potential top quality??

My dogs never had any differentiations on them, they were all show quality sold as pets with no breeding rights, end of story.

If we were able to make this differentiation on Mini papers "pet quality" would die out overnight.

If you cannot afford to buy "breeding quality" YOU DO NOT BREED.

You wait until you can afford to buy the best as many of us have done.

You do not come on here and tell us we are "lucky" or "rich" or even "favoured" because we have had the foresight to work hard and get the best- sometimes at HUGE personal loss, I might add!!

My horses eat before I do- I do not have any hidden wealth (I wish!!) and I am not "lucky".

I work hard fro what I have and I have different priorities to some, I know but, basically if you cannot afford it you do not do it.

You do not denigrate those who do and say it is alright for those that can afford it but I can't.

If you can't afford something that is it as far as I can see!!

I have NO idea why people keep saying that Pets are "not show quality" I am not sure if you are deliberatly misunderstanding or just really do not understand.

There is NO way a World Champion is going to be bred from two backyard pets UNLESS the "Pets" are World Champion QUALITY themselves.

There is no harm whatsoever in breeding good sound show quality animals as pets.

If people were really dedicated to breeding pets this is what they would do, as I did with my Shelties.

They would not buy second rate animals and then try to justify why they were not breeding top quality animals!!


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## susanne (Apr 1, 2007)

Why is it with breeding, the emphasis so often is ME, ME, ME. I have MY rights...I want a cute little foal...I want my children to experience the miracle of birth (oh, gag me!) ME, ME, ME.

I'm sorry, but it's not about you.

I believe in the the definition of a horseman or horsewoman as someone who considers the good of the horse FIRST.

Is it really in the best interest of the horse to risk losing your beloved pet or its foal to a dystocia JUST so you can witness this miracle or have a cute little foal?

Is it in the best interest of the horse to breed for yet another foal when so many horses are in need of a home?

Is it in the best interest of the horse to breed without consideration of conformation (even the basics that determine its health) when many loving, sound horses are already available at reasonable prices?

Do you need to be a big time breeder or show at the national level to be a responsible breeder? Certainly not.

Do you need to recognize and respect the enormous responsibility you are undertaking when you breed? ABSOLUTELY!

By breeding, you are creating a living being, not a toy, that depends upon you to make wise choices. (This is where the "ME" is a good thing) You are responsible for that life now and for the next 25-30 years...even if you sell it or give it away, it's still your responsibility. If you don't believe that, I hope you have some good karma stored up!

Because it's not about you and your pleasure. It's about them.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Apr 1, 2007)

Well bottom line no one will change anyones mind on this thread.

I see many people saying I breed show quality I will only breed show quality but... then the question comes what is show quality.

Lets be honest a show horse is only as good as his competition on any given day. So that means that show quality will vary from area to area, state to state and country to country.

What wins in one may not have a chance at all in another.

What one sees as a show quality herd others may easily be able to find many conformational faults in- we are all barn blind at one point or another, we all forgive different faults then others and we all like different "styles"

What I choose in my program may be very different then what others choose does that make me wrong and them right or vice versa?

Or does it make them or myself right in my own mind? I don't feel the need to come on here or anywhere for that matter and repeat that all my horses are show quality. Truth be told.. a nice horse speaks for itself period I should not need to tell people how wonderful my horses are or how beautiful my foals are and point out there good qualities.. if they are good people will see it period. and here is another truth all my horses are NOT "gasp" show quality (what I consider to be show quality.)

I am not a breeder who feels it is a failure to admit and see the truth. In fact i AM one who feels it a failure as a breeder to NOT see the truth.

I have 3 broodmares who in there best of days would have not placed in the halter ring and really not in the driving ring either. However there offspring has done well in ADS shows at CDE's and done ok at breed shows. National Champions nope but held there own .

Heck truth be told Foxy and raven would come out of classes and I would wonder how on earth he placed at Nationals.. was he the best horse no way -where there others with what I felt were less faults - yep- who met the breed standard better- Yep

What stood him apart was that he was a average little gelding who lived to make his child happy he ALWAYS gave her 120 percent - he walked into that halter ring and the 2 of them believed he had every right to be there and was just as good as anyone else in there and they showed like it .In her eyes Foxy was better then any other horse on the show grounds.

That was what did it period. He knew his job, loved his job loved his kid and gave it his all. So standing here in my pasture would people think that was a multi top ten halter gelding heck I didnt think it why would others

Do I think we should all breed all the time - No I realize there is heartbreak, horrible things happen that can give you nightmares for years - thousands of dollars down the drain to save a mare after a bad dystocia only to lose her anyway but you have to give her a chance- way to many horses in the world, that "joy" of birth is overshadowed by loss of sleep for days, weeks on end, worry and heartache

and sometimes that joy is what it should be luck of the draw most times.

I might look and say I choose not to breed that horse heck some of those I may choose not to breed could be champions, great show records, great blood lines.. but others may have a totally different opinion and most who have replied here that they would not breed inferior horses I assure you there is someone out there somewhere who feels you already are



:

I am not saying that to be mean or judgmental just to show that bottom line .You can shout from the roof tops and post every darn day on every forum there is that my horses are top of the line I have gold I have gold my program is golden -yet others can say OMG that is gold NO WAY

. what is gold to some is trash to others and vice versa and nothing will ever change that fact.


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## mad for mini's (Apr 1, 2007)

Lisa :aktion033: :aktion033: Very nicely put . Thank you. I usually don't answer to posts like this and wish now that I had waited a bit longer to speak up, you seem to have a nack for writing things so that they come out the right way !


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (Apr 1, 2007)

mad for mini's said:


> I...
> 
> Edited to add : Do you think a so called " pet quality" owner that was to breed and get only a few foals , say two or three , make them a breeder? I consider breeders to be someone that does this year to year and mostly for a so called "profit".


I consider anyone who has has deliberately mated two animals to produce offspring to be a breeder whether it's one or a dozen and whether you keep them or not. Perhaps not a commercial one, but a breeder nonetheless.

If people did a true cost analysis of their breeding operations and figured it out to the minutia, profit is all about luck when it comes to breeding any animal. If you don't have any veterinary issues, if feed prices remain low or at least stable, if foals move rapidly, if your property is paid for and if you don't include your time even at minimum wage, etc., etc., you may break even some years if you are truly producing top animals. I have yet to see even the most serious breeder make their entire living, support their families and be able to save for the future doing so. I'd love to meet one though and think they should be forced to share their knowlege with the rest of us, lol.

I agree with Tabitha that a knowlegeable breeder should be able to pick the ones who have potential but even the most well-bred, correct horse does not a show, let alone breeding quality, horse always make. It's all in the cards so tis' speak. Since too many minis end up being thrown together to produce at the hands of the less than knowlegable, it only makes sense for any breeder to start with the best of the best if being a responsible breeder is really your true intent. Excuses be danged for anything less. As Susanne and others have said it's a huge and far reaching responsibilty. The breeding of any animal should never be be undertaken lightly.


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## Danielle_E. (Apr 1, 2007)

I have read all the latest post and I find it absolutely ironic that some individuals are saying they breed "show quality" and have gone on and on about what ever they mean by "pet quality" and when I look at their animals, well I don't agree with what they say are "show quality". I am not seeing what they are they say they are breeding and I have seen better in some where someone has put a "please critique" and certain people who in their mind think they are breeding show quality give a constructive but negative critique when what they are breeding is no better. It absolutely floors me. Perhaps they like to listen to themselves talk. Putting my flame suit on now.


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## Buckskin gal (Apr 1, 2007)

Danielle, I really like to make experiences, something to learn from and this thread is just that,for me. I would really like to learn what you feel is show and pet quality and since you took the time to look at peoples horses and see them as non show quality will you share with us what you saw in them as being non show quality? If people are barn blind then lets bring out the faults and talk about them so learning takes place. Thanks, Mary



Danielle_E. said:


> I have read all the latest post and I find it absolutely ironic that some individuals are saying they breed "show quality" and have gone on and on about what ever they mean by "pet quality" and when I look at their animals, well I don't agree with what they say are "show quality". I am not seeing what they are they say they are breeding and I have seen better in some where someone has put a "please critique" and certain people who in their mind think they are breeding show quality give a constructive but negative critique when what they are breeding is no better. It absolutely floors me. Perhaps they like to listen to themselves talk. Putting my flame suit on now.


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## Danielle_E. (Apr 1, 2007)

I am not going to name any names because as I said these are my personal opinions and this is something I have thought of before this thread ever started and have mentioned to some "members" here in the past so they certainly could vouch that it's not just because this thread showed up now. In the past someone (and no it's not me, never put one of my horse's up for critique) has placed their animal and asked for a critique. I always read the comments and based on what is said by that individual I usually go and see their website to see if they truly know what they are talking about. In many instances I may totally agree with them, the critique may be bang on, but then in another thread when the "show quality" issue comes up and I see them post that they breed "show quality" I shake my head because they seem to have a double standard going when in fact the horse they critiqued and did critique correctly are, in my opinion, basically the same as their stock , some of the same faults, and yet they consider their minis to be "show quality and breeding quality" or so they keep stating in various threads and yet they tell these others that their mini is not show quality nor should it ever be bred




: I don't get it. Now I have to say it certainly is not the majority but it happens and they are the ones that are usually the "loudest" in posts pertaining to "show quality". Lord, I truly hate the two terms "pet quality" and "show quality" . It truly should be "pet" mni, "show mini" and "breed standard" and non-breed standard.

JMHO. I first believe that some people who are posting here think that show quality ONLY applies to "halter classes" or so it seems that this is what they are gearing all their comments on. First off, coming from a background of full size horses before I got into minis I may see thing much differently than someone who has never owned another breed besides minis. Disney mentioned that the same conformational faults don't happen in full size horses as often. I totally disagree with her and there are many full size horses that don't come close to the "breed standard" for their breed BUT they aren't the deformed and can't do anything animals that some keep saying that "pet quality" minis are. If you are speaking specifically about dwarf minis then I agree, because of their physical limitations, otherwise I belive it is not an accurate statement. Just because a mini many not have the long giraffe neck and table top back (gee where have I seen this thinking, oh yes in arabians) that they aren't "show quality". The identical thing is happening in the arabian world. I hear the same in that "show world" but there is so much more than "halter" and if the miniature horse breeders don't stop focusing solely on this they are going to find a major downturn in the market for their product, I belive it's already happened and we are there now. Because minis aren't "riding" horses, you need to expand your market not only to halter show animals. Not enough credit is given to this wonderful breed and to expand the market. There has to be more of a market that for "halter" horses. I truly believe that breeders need to start focusing on "other" important qualities that will help the breed grow. You certainly don't necessarily need a $5,000 or $10,000+ mini to compete in driving and at the upper levels. How many breeders focus on breeding the athletic minis? Of course you want conformationally correct, but what makes a good halter candidate is not always what you want in a driving championship, you need alot more. That is why I put more emphasis on those titles. The bottom line to me is the animal (breeding animal) has to reproduce itself or better, if not it should not be bred. A championship titled horse that can't breed better than himself/herself is not worth anything to me except being "pretty" Oh they may look phenominal themselves but as one of my dear friend's in the arabian world keeps saying "the proof is in the pudding" Show me an awesome looking mini foal and my first reaction will probably be who is the sire and dam, comes from being in arabs I guess, or my other question would be "what other offspring to they have" and studying them and seeing if it was just a fluke or only a 25% thing or..... I just think some are limiting their marketing strategy and breeding for only one thing, I horse that looks nice in halter and then what? Now the mini that is conformationally correct, wins in halter, wins in driving, wins in jumping. now to me that is an exceptional mini and I don't believe their are many of them around, or perhaps someone can tell me of one?


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## Dona (Apr 1, 2007)

Lisa & Danielle....... :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

You've both summed it up pretty much for me!



:


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## Buckskin gal (Apr 1, 2007)

I do understand your position to a certain extent. I think what you are saying is too many people are breeding for what they call "halter quality"??? And maybe that halter quality isn't making a good all around horse? Giving thought to that I really think that if people are breeding by the standard they will have a good all around mini which is capable of being halter shown, drove, can do performance and also gimake a wonderful family pet. I think some others have been saying this, also. A popint that was being made was that oo many people were breeding for "just pets" and that is not for the best of the breed. Whether we show or don't show isn't really important in this matter...what is important, at least to me, is that when breedings are planned they should be planned carefully with the best interest of the horse in mind and if they can be more than "pets" that is good....and if they can be more than "halter" horses that too is good. Neither one or the other has to be bred for, specifically. I think there are breeders who produce minis which are capable of both. Anyway, I do think discussions such as this help people who have open minds to think beyond what is just for the day. Mary



Danielle_E. said:


> I am not going to name any names because as I said these are my personal opinions and this is something I have thought of before this thread ever started and have mentioned to some "members" here in the past so they certainly could vouch that it's not just because this thread showed up now. In the past someone (and no it's not me, never put one of my horse's up for critique) has placed their animal and asked for a critique. I always read the comments and based on what is said by that individual I usually go and see their website to see if they truly know what they are talking about. In many instances I may totally agree with them, the critique may be bang on, but then in another thread when the "show quality" issue comes up and I see them post that they breed "show quality" I shake my head because they seem to have a double standard going when in fact the horse they critiqued and did critique correctly are, in my opinion, basically the same as their stock , some of the same faults, and yet they consider their minis to be "show quality and breeding quality" or so they keep stating in various threads and yet they tell these others that their mini is not show quality nor should it ever be bred
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 2, 2007)

I judge and have always judged my "halter" horses as if they were full size, potential riding horses.

Do they match up??

Conformationally, Yes, but, as we did on another Forum, for fun, when blown up to full size and (digitally) had a person put on board, ALL the faults showed up, big time.

The head was too big for the body, in all cases (and we were using World Champions as well as our own) and there were many other minor points that became obvious.

NO horse is perfect- it cannot be done,

We can only strive for the best, and continue to strive, as we will NEVER attain perfection.

What annoys me a bit about so called "Pet Breeders" is this ongoing assumption that the one precludes the other.

I reiterate.

I breed Show Quality animals and I am, DELIGHTED if they are bought as pets.

Are they all "show quality"??

No, in my eyes some fall short, but I am hypercritical of my stock, and I am not "Barn Blind" either.

What I do not do, nor have I ever, is specifically breed a second rate animal- sound and well conformed but second rate, and then attempt to justify it by saying I am breeding "Pets"

This si the thing that I believe annoys quite a few people who, like me, have bought the best they could afford and bred them to the best they could afford, sacrificing quantity for quality every time.

Even with the Arabs I did not get top quality every time, even using Pure Crabbet lines top quality was not guaranteed.

What I did not get, and what I do not get with the Minis I breed is animals with cow hocks, big ugly heads and other conformational faults, because my base stock was sound.

There is absolutely NOTHING wrong with targeting the "Pet" market and breeding good, sound, showable, animals that are then raised to be quiet gentle pets.

There is no reason why the stock that goes in the ring and wins Halter/Obstacle/Jumping and Driving cannot be equally at home in the Nursing Home and the back yard.

They do not have to be second rate to be well loved pets, in fact they should not be.


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## Tony (Apr 2, 2007)

>>I have yet to see even the most serious breeder make their entire living, support their families and be able to save for the future doing so. I'd love to meet one though and think they should be forced to share their knowlege with the rest of us, lol.<<

For the past eleven years your description fits our operation. I have done miniatures for many years as a sideline, but in 1995 "retired" to do them full time. I laughingly, but realistically tell people that if we don't sell horse, we don't eat. Judging by my weight, I am eating quite well. Of course, I work at it 24/7. I would love to meet you and welcome you to come for a visit anytime. As far as being forced to "share their knowledge" I have always been totally open about sharing any help that I can offer and answer many emails every week from people that I have not met concerning many issues and plan to continue.

Susan (Horsehug) can certainly attest to these statements. Since she bought a filly from me several years ago, she has been a regular in my mailbox with questions, observations, and in fact, she asked me to respond to this "quote".


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Apr 2, 2007)

Tony, how many horses do you have, how many did you start with and what kind of money did you put into your horses? Your set-up isn't something most people have and I see so many people that pick up $300-500 auction horses with MANY faults (and may or may not be registered) and think that they can get thousands for the babies and can make a living on it. Most people don't have Orion sons or other top stallions that are sought after. How long did it take you to be able to live off of the minis and how much do you usually invest in brood mares and stallions? That is another thing to take into consideration for people wanting to start up.

-Amy


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## horsehug (Apr 2, 2007)

Tony,

Actually I had seen your ads and pictures in the magazines long before there was the internet





And I went up to you and talked to you at the 1998 AMHA Nationals in Reno, as I had always admired your program and horses, partly because I was always more attracted to the tiny ones, when I first heard of miniature horses about 25 years ago.

After being at Tony's place several years ago, I can tell you...... I love his herd! And he and his family show incredible hospitality. I always think of him when I think of someone who does make his living with them as well as absolutely loving them with his heart and soul! I think he is living his dream  And I do think his wealth of information from living and breathing little horses most of his life, is second to none. So I do ask him when I have questions about breeding and foaling and bloodlines and dwarfism and lots of other things!

Again I want to say thanks to all of you for your posts. I truly believe there are many facets of raising and/ or owning miniature horses and each one of us has our own most favorite or favorites! There is room for us all.  Some things we will never agree on, but that is what a forum is all about at times. And I just wanted to say some of the things that I have thought for a long time. So thanks to all of you for letting me voice my 2 cents.

And thanks Tony, for your vote of support also.

Susan O.


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## Tony (Apr 2, 2007)

FairytailGlennMinis said:


> Tony, how many horses do you have, how many did you start with and what kind of money did you put into your horses? Your set-up isn't something most people have and I see so many people that pick up $300-500 auction horses with MANY faults (and may or may not be registered) and think that they can get thousands for the babies and can make a living on it. Most people don't have Orion sons or other top stallions that are sought after. How long did it take you to be able to live off of the minis and how much do you usually invest in brood mares and stallions? That is another thing to take into consideration for people wanting to start up.
> 
> -Amy


I started with one Shetland filly that my parents gave me when I was born in 1945 and I started breeding miniatures full time in 1995 after doing it as a part time avocation since the early 70s. I now have 235 head. I have paid as much as $20,000 and as little as $200 for the right horse. I have always told people who ask to buy the best that you can afford, and "best" is not always indicated by price. It takes many years to put together a breeding program and I am always upgrading mine. I worked for three years as a fast food restaurant manager to be able to buy Xenon, our first Orion son. I have also been fortunate to make some excellent trades on some outstanding horses. It has to be a long term plan, not a "get rich quick" technique. When we bought the place that we have now, we basically used everything that we had to pay for it and I said at the time that I wanted to get enough horses so that even if they had to sell for pet prices, we could still eat.



Luckily we haven't had to drop the prices that much, but try to have something for everyone's budget.

Ten years ago I posted a LOT here. These days not as much because of time constraints and a lack of appreciation for some of the responses that I get from time to time. I learn from reading, but also read much that is NOT correct in my opinion, but have no need to "fight" for my opinion, so choose to share it with those who ask.


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## Danielle_E. (Apr 2, 2007)

> I do understand your position to a certain extent. I think what you are saying is too many people are breeding for what they call "halter quality"??? And maybe that halter quality isn't making a good all around horse? Giving thought to that I really think that if people are breeding by the standard they will have a good all around mini which is capable of being halter shown, drove, can do performance and also gimake a wonderful family pet. I think some others have been saying this, also. A popint that was being made was that oo many people were breeding for "just pets" and that is not for the best of the breed. Whether we show or don't show isn't really important in this matter...what is important, at least to me, is that when breedings are planned they should be planned carefully with the best interest of the horse in mind and if they can be more than "pets" that is good....and if they can be more than "halter" horses that too is good. Neither one or the other has to be bred for, specifically. I think there are breeders who produce minis which are capable of both. Anyway, I do think discussions such as this help people who have open minds to think beyond what is just for the day. Mary


Thanks Mary for your reply. I also agree with what you are saying, lol, except I have to say I cringed when I read "they can be more than "pets" that is good. Can I ask why that thinking? What is the crime in someone having a great horse that they aren't interested in showing and/or breeding? For me I don't necessarily think that "pet" means not well conformed and not show quality. Now I don't think that is what you are saying but I do think that some here think this way. Why is there that thinking out there? that "pet" is always equal to poorly conformed or not show quality? That is what I don't understand. The rest of the argument I understand and yet I don't feel that I have a right to tell someone what they can and can't do with their minis unless they are abusing them, that's a different kettle of fish. I just don't feel it is my place to say to whoever who has minis what they can and can not do with them. Now having said that if this is someone who is breeding poor breeding horses and then can't sell them and dumps them at low end auctions and they end up in the meat pens, yes I get rather hot under the collar when I see minis in the meat pens. I would rather have someone breeding minis that perhaps are not show quality who either keeps them as a pet or sells them as pets than someone who has "show quality" but who breeds too many that they can handle and must make room for next year's babies and sells them at low end auctions. To me a responsible breeder is the person who, no matter how many they breed, could be a large breeder, could be a small breeder, hangs on to those babies until they find a suitable home for them. That to me is taking responsibility for what you are bringing into this world. Of course there are exceptions where someone has no choice, due to health or a major financial situation that was totally unforseen.

I know in full size horses you look for "different" things in a driving animal. Pretty is a bonus, correct is a must and motion and sane. But I am not necessarily looking for that long long neck or the table top back either. I am looking for a great rear end, propulsion and balance. I truly feel that some that would not excel in the halter ring could for sure win in the driving ring. It's basically the same thing going on in arabians. Many arabian that are shown in halter are not shown in riding or driving. To be honest some of them don't move very well except they "look pretty", beautiful head and neck but major leg faults. I sometimes worry that we are focusing, it seems to me, with the same in minis, dishy faces, long necks, etc. How many times have you seen in ads "arabian in miniature, dishy arabian head". There are certainly different "types" of minis. Because we are a height breed and some are bringing in shetland blood to "refine" the look and get perhaps more action, as minis are not allowed to have shoes... but I have to say I have seen some "stronger built" minis that are VERY nice as well. Perhaps, as a breed, there is more diversity in minis we are a height breed and not a "purebreed" per say.

This is just an after thought and perhaps people can discuss this as well. I know that many people in the past have voiced their opinion that a mini (mare or stallion) who produce a "dwarf" should be taken out of "breeding". I sometimes wonder if some of the ones we admire so much have indeed produced a dwarf but that it's basically kept "secret", meaning only the breeder knows. People still rave about this stallion or perhaps it's a mare but I wonder if they knew if they would have the same opinion of that stallion or that mare and if they owned that stallion or that mare, would they truly still feel the same way. Would they quickly remove the stallion or the mare from breeding because they had one "dwarf" in a myriad of other awesome foals.


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## Hobbit Horse Shire (Sep 10, 2007)

"I also love taking mine to the nursing home in our home town when they ask us. We usually take a mare and a tiny foal so that we can lift the tiny foal up and even let the ones in bed pet it and have it right there on the bed  They love that! This is one of the many reasons I personally love the tiny ones. 

In our town parades, I also drive my stallion and sometimes take a few foals and moms along walking each year, and that too is a first time to see minis for lots of folks! They are so well liked they usually win one of the prizes for entries in the parade. 

I believe that in the "overall big picture", the vast majority of mini owners do not show --------

I sometimes feel like there might be out there a huge silent majority who needs to have a voice."

Hi Susan .. 

Thank you so much for putting into words the very thing my husband & I feel about our minis & the reason we got them .. We are the kind of people who believe in giving back to the world & since we are animal lovers what a better way .. We currently have 2 minis with the hopes of adding just a few more .. Aside from loving them as personal pets we intend to share them with others who would never dare get close to a big horse .. Having personally been on the "receiving" end of a horses kick (broke my leg in 3 places below the knee) I can fully understand people being afraid of a big horse

We are not "horse" people .. We've never owned one but have riden them in the past so our knowledge is basically non-existant .. I'm looking for very basic beginning information on how to get started with pet therapy .. I do realize the temperment of the horse is very important and that hands on as little ones plays a big part in that but other then that I'm not sure what to do with the girls

If you or anyone you know of can help with directing me to this kind of information it would be greatly appreciated!!!

Carol & John Pilot


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## Georgine (Sep 10, 2007)

Very well written Susan.

We have recently ventured in to some showing and it kind of seems to be like what we see in figure skating as far as the judging goes. (we have owned miniature horses since 1991)

More often than not in my experience (which is limited) it does not appear to be the case, that the best horse is winning the First Place Ribbon

In one specific case the horse that won Supreme Halter Horse was also a horse that the judge of the class had sold to the lady.

I know that as long as he didn't own the horse in the last 3 months he could judge it, but there were better horses in the ring.

I am not a judge and I am not an expert, but the showing part of the mini horse business is my least favorite part of being an owner.

Maybe I haven't been to enough shows because the few I have attended, both viewing or showing, have left a bad taste in my mouth.


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## jbrat (Sep 10, 2007)

Georgine said:


> Very well written Susan.
> 
> We have recently ventured in to some showing and it kind of seems to be like what we see in figure skating as far as the judging goes. (we have owned miniature horses since 1991)
> 
> ...


Unfortunately, I have seen that alot too, it does take the fun out of it in a way, but its fun to get out and socialize with your family & horses.

Recentally, I saw a show where the judge gave champion halter to a horse she had placed 2nd. he got champ. over the horse that beat him orginally. The Horse did deserve it! but he deserved the 1st place originally too. As I think back to when I showed I can think of many examples - like seeing the the judges hanging out with all the people who place 1st. (before the day of the show and after)

I haven't shown in years but now getting back into it alittle with my kids and 4-H. It's the all in the opinion fair or not! I think it can be that way no matter what your showing, dogs, cows, pigs, etc.

I don't think that will ever change.

We'll just have to remember to take lots of gum or mouthwash,lol.




:

Thanks for the great thread Susan - Its all about caring for and loving all of God's creatures! With all the poor unwanted, suffering animals out there we have to do what we can to help- sure wish I could save them all!


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## PaintNminis (Sep 10, 2007)

First Off that was akit of READING :new_shocked:

But it was Very Eye opening



:

and it was Very well written Susan.


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## Suzie (Sep 10, 2007)

Hobbit Horse Shire said:


> "I also love taking mine to the nursing home in our home town when they ask us. We usually take a mare and a tiny foal so that we can lift the tiny foal up and even let the ones in bed pet it and have it right there on the bed  They love that! This is one of the many reasons I personally love the tiny ones.
> In our town parades, I also drive my stallion and sometimes take a few foals and moms along walking each year, and that too is a first time to see minis for lots of folks! They are so well liked they usually win one of the prizes for entries in the parade.
> 
> I believe that in the "overall big picture", the vast majority of mini owners do not show --------
> ...




If I remember correctly, some time back there was a thread on getting a therapy horse "certified" and a link with some great information on how to do that. Carol and John, you might try a search on therapy certification on this Forum and see what comes up. I thought I had "flagged" this for myself (as I would love to do that also with a couple of my little minis) but can't find it now. Perhaps someone else remembers the therapy horse link to help you out.


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## love_casper (Sep 10, 2007)

:new_rofl: remember the whole *"How many forum members does it take to turn in a light bulb"* theory! I have to laugh as one of the things i remember was ...then someone will come along and bump up the thread six months later....rofl this is six months old!!!

anyways, this was definitely one of my all time favorite threads.



: I'm going to copy the url and save it for future reference.


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## SWA (Sep 10, 2007)

The Delta Society at http://www.deltasociety.org Hope this helps.



:



Suzie said:


> > If you or anyone you know of can help with directing me to this kind of information it would be greatly appreciated!!!Carol & John Pilot
> 
> 
> If I remember correctly, some time back there was a thread on getting a therapy horse "certified" and a link with some great information on how to do that. Carol and John, you might try a search on therapy certification on this Forum and see what comes up. I thought I had "flagged" this for myself (as I would love to do that also with a couple of my little minis) but can't find it now. Perhaps someone else remembers the therapy horse link to help you out.


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## slv (Sep 10, 2007)

Great post Susan.

Just my opinion that there are so many folks out there breeding minis BEFORE they get educated on what exactly is good conformation. I do support the mentor idea whole heartedly, but so many people just don't ever find a mentor or really care to learn. THAT in my opionion is the problem. They buy a mare and a stallion and just breed it. I don't think that we will ever be able to eliminate this entirely.

I do think that there are probably many horses out there that have never stepped foot in a show ring but they are certainly the quality of horse that it takes to make good breeding stock. I am sure that there are several educated breeders out there that don't want to have the hassle of showing. But remember, there are also people out there breeding dwarfs to dwarfs and horses with very poor conformation and bad bites to each other. I do believe that this is what is going wrong. These people have not bothered to educate themselves on what qualities to look for in good breeding stock and then to match up the stallion with the mare for what we would hope would be a very nice quality foal.

I look at it like this: If you take on the responsiblity of breeding horses or dogs or whatever, should you not try and learn about them first. I am sure a big CEO of a company did not just walk in and start that job successfully without being educated and gaining experience.

A seasoned breeder won't double up on faults in horses. They learn to cross two horses that compliment each other. I have decided that there is no horse that does not have at least one small fault. There are so many people out there that don't recognize faults at all. When I speak of faults, I am talking conformation and temperment. Now it does not mean that the horses that are here on earth now should not be loved by their owners and yes they all have a special purpose. I have never felt closer to heaven than when I spend lots of time with my horses. It is the best therapy in the world.

I do however believe that it should be the responsiblity of ANY person that intends on breeding any type of animal to educate themselves and to continue to educate themselve 20 years after they start doing it. The goal should be to contribute to the betterment of the breed and not just breed them to see a birth, that we all know so well can end in catastrophically.

The PEOPLE that refuse to do this are the problem and they are the ones putting the little horses here that can only be used as pets or that no one experienced would want in their breeding program.

My advice to what I call the new "Miniature Horse Enthusiast". EDUCATE YOURSELF. MAKE IT A POINT TO DO SO. GO TO SHOWS - BIG SHOWS. LOOK AT THOSE ELEGANT ANIMALS AND LOOK AT WHAT KIND OF A HORSE IT TAKES TO MAKE A GOOD BREEDING ANIMAL. Then go home AND DON'T BE BARN BLIND look at your horses. Are these like the ones that you saw at the show - even remotely??????

READ AND READ AND READ THE STANDARD OF PERFECTION. If you have questions, DONT BE AFRAID TO ASK. THERE ARE NO STUPID QUESTIONS!!!!!!! GET THE MINIATURE HORSE WORLD AND LOOK LOOK LOOK. I know these horses are cleaned up and made up for the photos but don't look for that, look at the conformation and balance of these horses and then go out to the barn and look again. If you just can't figure it out, then ask someone, but when you do, PLEASE OPEN YOUR HEART TO THE TRUTH. If it makes you feel better, then ask another person and then another. Please ask those that are seasoned and successful breeders though. You can NEVER OVER EDUCATE YOURSELF WHEN IT COMES TO THESE LITTLE HORSES. The real problem lies with NO EDUCATION AT ALL.

I know this may make some folks mad, but it was never intended to. Not all people will think about this but if just ONE person does, then it will all be worth it. Like so many have said, I am not good at putting words in writing but I think you can understand what I am trying to say.

I also want to add, love ALL horses. They are precious gifts to us and bring us hours of enjoyment and they seem to be very capable of unconditional love. JUST EDUCATE YOURSELF ON THE BREEDING ASPECT!!!


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## Cathy_H (Sep 10, 2007)

Deleted my comment - I didn't realize this topic was started months ago - Goes to show who pays attention to dates hey!!


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## rockin r (Sep 10, 2007)

" - think about what happens to those horses when/if they leave you or if you die.

JUST because we don't agree does NOT mean that we are "flaming" each other... we're just stating our own opinions."

I know that when my husband and I are gone my 9 minis "have a good home to go to"! I will "rest" assured that they will not go to auction, they will be loved and cared for as I have done for them. How many of the BIG BREEDER (100+ horses) minis will have the same good fortune??? I am sure not many. And then there are more added to the problem :no: . I am not pointing fingers at anyone. After all, it is "Their" living room window that they are looking out of. But I do take responsibility for my horses and whatever else may show up on my porch needing love, food and a warm place to lay its head. I thank God everyday that I am a Human and not an Animal. Who knows maybe one day we will be disposable too. Not perfect so no one wants us All I know, is that at the end of the day "I" am the one looking out my living room window admiring what is in MY pasture, no one else.


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## horsehug (Sep 11, 2007)

Hi Carol,

I was surprised to see this old thread of mine up again 

I imagine the site Tanya (SWA) gave you will help you out.

But as for our experiences, we live near a small town and so people found out about our little farm years ago when we were first starting out. Over the years the nursing home has asked us to come bring horses from time to time and so we did it  We go a few times a year.

We also have had the senior center ask to bring their adult daycare out to our place and we always are happy to let them come. We set up chairs and they sit down and watch the horses and some of the babies and mares come up to vist them 

With us it has almost always been different groups coming to us...... and we never turn them down.

But I imagine it could work the same way........ if you offered to come I bet they would be thrilled!

We have also had kindergarteners and special ed kids and scout groups. Just today a boyscout leader called me and asked to being 15 scouts out soon while they are stuyding farm living, to see just what it takes to take care of my horses on a day to day basis 

By the way welcome to the wonderful world of minis. There is nothing else quite like them 

Susan O.


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