# Which breeder would you choose? (dog) hypothetical



## Marty (Mar 15, 2007)

Ok this is hypothetical, sorta.

First I am NOT getting a puppy, ok?

I cannot help but browsing, and ok, I'm an admitted tire kicker. I am not getting a puppy and that's that but I enjoy looking around anyhow. Yes, I am ashamed of myself for bothering people when I am not buying. I was only inquiring, that's all.

However, there is something that came up and I'd like to hear your opinions on who you would go with if you were wanting to buy a puppy. (which I am not).

Breeder #1.

He's very passionate about the breed. The first thing he says is that he is not in it for the money, but is striving to put the best dog out there that he can. Has been breeding several lines for over 20 years. Show's professionally. I have learned more about the breed in two conversations from him than I have from my own research efforts. I could sit there all day long and just listen to what he knows. He knows just about every bloodline there is, the goods and the bads. Very knowledgeable about conformation, diseases, behavioral problems. You name it. This guy is a walking encyclopedia, but he's not full of himself. He's very helpful. He can care less if he sells puppies or not and is not anxious to take a deposit. Has a favorite vet, but does most of his own vaccinations, de-worming etc. His kennel is very impressive, a wonderful set up, and dogs are amazing and very happy and the picture of health. Weans his dogs at 8 weeks but prefers they do not leave until they are closer to 10- 12, so he can observe them.

He used to own Traceys father (small world) and sold him 14 years ago. He also knew her mother and what was wrong in that bloodline which came from the mother's side. He told the owners she should be spayed and not bred at all, but of course they didn't listen, and I ended up with a result of that breeding.

Breeder #2

This lady is a stay at home mom of young kids. Has been a backyard breeder for 5 years for extra household money. Doesn't show, doesn't seem to know too much, but is acceptable in the way she seems to try to be a good doggy lady. She's not up on bloodlines and doesn't know a lot, literally nothing about conformation faults/ problems in the breed/ from a showing/breeding standpoint. The sire and dam are just her beloved pets. She does her own shots and de-worming and her schedule is close to that of Breeder #1. She goes between 3 vets if she needs one but usually buys her vaccines from the feed store and de-wormer. Has no big time looking kennel. Has a very modest laundry room converted into a puppy room and a small fenced in back yard for exercising. Is anxious to get deposits and get the puppies moved along by 6 weeks. They are pulling the mama down terribly and mama is very sore and loosing too much weight and needs to wean the pups. She has the same quality of Breeder #1 but I don't think doesn't have a clue that her dogs are that good.

They are both charging the same price for puppies.

Repeat: I am not buying a puppy. Karla, you got that right?

But if I were, who would you go with?


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## shane (Mar 15, 2007)

hi marty, i would have to say no:1

because they seem to know what they are talking about, and you would always be able to ring for advise {if you did get a puppy} i know i know your not!! :lol:

also i suppose it would depend if you where going to show the puppy,a you said that they where both charging the same price, i would go for a show quality dog

myself i would go get a rescue.......




:

goodluck with your window shopping



: :bgrin


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## Shelley (Mar 15, 2007)

You have to ask....? I think you already know the answer.



:

(just in case...it's #1.)

Shelley


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## Warpony (Mar 15, 2007)

Number 1... for this reason:



Marty said:


> Breeder #1. Very knowledgeable about conformation, diseases, behavioral problems. Weans his dogs at 8 weeks but prefers they do not leave until they are closer to 10- 12, so he can observe them.He also knew her mother and what was wrong in that bloodline which came from the mother's side. He told the owners she should be spayed and not bred at all, but of course they didn't listen, and I ended up with a result of that breeding.
> 
> Breeder #2 She's not up on bloodlines and doesn't know a lot, literally nothing about conformation faults/ problems in the breed/ from a showing/breeding standpoint. Is anxious to get deposits and get the puppies moved along by 6 weeks. They are pulling the mama down terribly and mama is very sore and loosing too much weight and needs to wean the pups.


Breeder number 2 may be a wonderful person who loves her dogs, but by not being educated she is not being a responsible breeder. Not being aware of the health issues in the breed and wanting to get the pups out of there as soon as possible? No way would i spend my money to reward that. The showing and fancy kennels mean nothing to me, knowledge of bloodlines mean almost nothing except as it relates to knowledge of health issues but those other things i quote mean a lot.

Do either of them have their breeding stock OFA checked? That would also be a big one for me.


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## gatorbait4sure (Mar 15, 2007)

Now we ALL know you are not buying a puppy, so I will tell you that person #1 IS A BREEDER and person #2 is a Back Yard Breeder.

If you EVER have any trouble later on in the dog's life you could ALWAYS call breeder #1. BYB #2 will not be able to help you unless you want to buy another puppy from her!

BYB's are the a real PIA to those who are trying to do the right thing for the dogs and the breed!

Say......I sold you a puppy for $100.00 and gave you a two page written and signed guarantee covering the life of your dog, plus a forever return policy ( meaning you could ALWAYS return the dog if you could not keep it, no matter what the reason ) Plus I gave you TONS of reading material with helpful facts and pedigrees, and a feeding sheet, and a the health records of the parents (OFA, CERF, vWD, etc) and I had the puppies temperament tested at 7 weeks, socialized up the wazoo, UTD on anything and everything, plus these parents were champions (which means I CARE that my dogs are up to the standards of the Parent club of my breed) PLUS I give you permission to em, call me, cell phone call me at any time with any questions.

OR say for the same $100.00 you bought a puppy from the lady down the block who wants to get rid of them at 6 weeks so her house doesn't smell any more, and because she doesn't have the time of inclination to keep them the extra time it takes to do all the above (which is good for the dog but cost's extra).

WHICH WOULD YOU PICK???

Drucilla Crowell

[email protected]

Pembroke Welsh Corgi breeder for over 25 years and VERY proud of it!


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## minimule (Mar 15, 2007)

I'd go with #1 also. He knows a lot about the breed and is trying NOT to breed the ones that have the faults and problems. He isn't in it for the money and is willing to keep the dogs if they don't sell (at least it sounds like that



). He would probably be more likely to give you a health gaurantee on the pup.

Breeder #2: Sounds like she IS in it just for the money. If the pups are dragging momma down at 6 weeks, maybe she isn't feeding her enough. She doesn't know about the faults that the bloodlines could have and may be creating more dogs with problems. I doubt you could get a health gaurantee from her. You probably know more about the breed than she does.


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## Boinky (Mar 15, 2007)

no doubt about it.. DEFINATLY number 1. i've learned the hard way that people like breeder # 2 MOST LIKELY do not do hip or eye exams (you said yourself she didn't know anything about conformation or breed standards ect)... which means those pups could potentially be at very high risk for hip or eye problems later on down the road. I'd rather pay $600 from a breeder that does those things..than $200 for one that DOENS'T! let me tell you.. when you get a dog (mine wasn't even cheap and i didn't know at the time she was disreputable) that has hip problems by 1 year old and your quoted $1500 PER HIP to fix it..that's a darned expensive purebred you could have probably bought FOUR for that price from a GOOD breeder that does those checks.

Now i'm NOT saying backyard breeder = poor breeding.. i know LOTS of backyard breeders that do their homework know their lines the best they can...maybe don't show or whatnot but still do extremely well with their breeding practices. and of course do hip and eye checks.. I'D buy from someone like that with NO problems or issues..but not someone that obviously doesn't give a darn about what they are producing (as breeder #2 sounds like). She's just in it for the $$ and obviously doesn't even enjoy her pups if she's in such a rush to have them GONE. I love having my pups..sure by 8 weeks it's alot less sad to see them go when you have enormous litters like my bitch always produces..it's a lot of work and a lot of care..but i STILL love them and part of me is NOT ready for them to go.

I dunno..i guess i just have high standards..but #2 doesnt' sound like anyone i'd buy from..especially if price is equal ect!!! go with the known rather than the unknown!


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## Marty (Mar 15, 2007)

Newsflash:

Breeder #1 has the daddy dog OFA certified, not the mommy yet

Breeder #2 has the daddy dog OFA and DNA'd but not the mommy either


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## tagalong (Mar 15, 2007)

Easy choice... breeder #1.

As if you really had to ask, *Marty*...



:

Caring about the breed - wishing to better it and promote it... all good in my book.

Evaluating the puppies? Yes!

Breeding one's pets just to make money? No matter how good they are? And not necessarily caring about the quality? I'd walk away from that. And have.

Oh - and I do understand that you are not getting a puppy._ Yessirree._ I said the same thing myself... right before the guy in my avatar crossed my path... :bgrin


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## Reble (Mar 15, 2007)

Well Marty I would check into one more.

Too be honest, I have bought off both type of people and can find fault in both.

They both are registered, but the second is DNA top on my list.

The first says not into it for the money, I am sorry hate that remark.

Again disposition mean more to me than bloodlines.

You do not want a puppy that does not have a good start, especially if mom is run down.

Good Luck in just looking



:


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## sfmini (Mar 15, 2007)

Oh, this is a no brainer, number 1. I bought from one like number 2, the puppy was way too young to leave home, got sick, had major skin problems. Turns out number 2 has lines with skin problems. They are still at it, and I got my dog in 1980. We get some of their 'used up' breeding stock in rescue from the dog shelters as they won't give to rescue directly, and yes all have skin problems.

A good breeder will guarantee the dog for life, will insist that if at any time you cannot keep your dog you are to return it to them.

Of course you aren't getting a dog. Sure.

How lonely for you. I know it hurts, but what about all those awsome wonderul years you had with your girl? Wasn't it really worth it?


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## minisaremighty (Mar 15, 2007)

OK, I've not looked at the other replies.

I have been planning to get a Pembroke Welsh Corgi now since Jan. 2006. I toyed with the idea several times of getting one from an ad in the paper, talked to a few different breeders. All of which were backyard breeders, most pretty much like your #2.

I held of a bit because we just couldn't justify the cost at the time and I wasn't so sure about that type of breeder (will mention why below), so I joined several Corgi groups online and learned a TON. Through them, I got many references for a local long-time breeder, who I was aware of and had talked to a couple of times.

I got to know this breeder, who shows and has been breeding corgis for 20+ and German Shepards for 10 years before that. She tests all her dogs and knows them well. Has produced many champions. I visited her place 3 times to look over her dogs and ask tons of questions. She's a wealth of information. She also will ALWAYS take a dog back. ALWAYS, for whatever reason.

I have since decided that the ONLY way to go is with this breeder (who is very similar to your #1). I could never have learned all the things I've learned if I'd not gone with her. She had no puppies available and for a short while, we considered one of her adult dogs that were available and then decided to wait for a puppy. She has just recently bred two females and I will have 1st pick between both litters (due around April 23)

The more I've learned, I'm very thankful that I didn't choose a breeder like your #2. My breeder has been at it for so long that she knows the breed and their issues inside and out, has had all her dogs tested and has been able to produce dogs with a great health record. I want to make sure I get the healthiest pup possible because I want to have him around for a VERY long time.

That said, I did buy a min pin from a breeder like your #2 and he's had nothing but health problem after health problem. All genetic. I asked about the testing when I was thinking of purchasing him and the breeder told me she did do it, _but I didn't request proof_. Apparently, she never did test, so I found out later. I am certain my little guy will not live a long life and the life he's been living has been filled with pain. :no: This was a deciding factor in going with a long-time reputable breeder also.

My breeder has since become a great friend and mentor and I'm over there visiting and getting my corgi fix about every other week, or at least talking to her on the phone. I'm planning on delving into the world of obedience and possibly conformation with this puppy and she's been a valuable resource. I will be traveling to shows with her this summer to learn the ins and outs of it all before attempting it next year with my own little guy.

OK, that was a book! Sorry! 

I would say BREEDER #1



:


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## bcody (Mar 15, 2007)

OK Marty,

I know you are NOT getting a puppy, but IF you were to, I would go with the breeder #1. I have never bred, as I have no desire, but have been involved with keeshonds for over 15 years. I have shown in every event they can compete in, including breed (Yes, I have competed in breed, gotten a Ch and had the dog fixed, because there are plenty of other breeders out there.) Someone who loves the breed, and is in it for the better of the breed will give you a stronger healthier, stable puppy, if you were to get a puppy.

I am also involved in rescue. We see a ton of dogs, with various health issues, that come from BYB, breeder#2.

A couple of other questions you may ask is how old the mom is, how old was she when she had her first litter (should not be younger then 2), and how many litters she has had. Also, a dog needs to be over 2 too get a true OFA.

Let us know which you would choose from, IF you were to go looking. It never hurt to see a third person either!


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Mar 15, 2007)

I dont even know whay I am posting on this :bgrin we all heard it LOUD AND CLEAR  that Marty is NOT getting a puppy right?? So why should it really matter to her :new_shocked: . But if I had to say I would not go with either :bgrin I would find me some sweet lovable little pup



: s, that are in need of a good home, that would lick me to death, because they would know how much I love the smell of puppy breath :bgrin not give to hoots about there pedigree, and probably come home with ummmm.....more then one,



: to give the little helpless ones a home since they have no big name breeder that is so knowledgeable about them, or a breeder who I would think is in it for the money, of course these helpless little pups would probably end up in a human society if I didnt help them out. But then again, thats what I would do. Not you Marty, because we know your not getting a puppy. :bgrin  :new_shocked: Corinne


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## Reijel's Mom (Mar 15, 2007)

Oh Marty, I think you already know! I think I've seen your posts re: horses and responsible breeding.

BTW, good luck with that pup you're NOT getting :bgrin


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## Irish Hills Farm (Mar 15, 2007)

Marty,

you are being such a rug.

Make sure the puppy is there sunday so I can see it.


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## FoRebel (Mar 15, 2007)

Marty, you know the answer.... But if you want the reasurance as to my opinion on this, I would go with breeder #1. He knows his stuff. He knows his dogs. Doesn't sound like he'd bs you or push you into anything if you weren't ready or didn't want it.



: So breeder #1 is my choice!


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## capall beag (Mar 15, 2007)

#1 sounds better all around but this comment would make me definately turn away from #2.

Is anxious to get deposits and get the puppies moved along by 6 weeks. They are pulling the mama down terribly and mama is very sore and loosing too much weight and needs to wean the pups.

You should never be anxious to move your puppies before they are even ready to go! If you NEED the money that is never a good sign becuase you will make decisions based on this as a breeder. Pups should never be pulling Momma down, you can wean pups and still hold on to them until they are ready for their new homes.

That said after your news flash I would NEVER buy a dog like a gsd, lab, golden from a breeder that had not had both parents ofa'd prior to breeding. As a minimum they should have their hips checked, certainly with labs they should have their elbows and eyes checked too prior to deciding if they are suitable for breeding. You cannot guarantee the parents of the pups are sound unless they have been tested. IMO it is very irresponsible to breed a dog such as a lab(use as an example becuase I know about them!) without ensuring they are correct.

All that said I am only going by the comments you made maybe #2 has her heart in the right place and great pups?? I take each situation as I find it



:


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## ChrystalPaths (Mar 15, 2007)

#1 for sure, just in case something comes up....you have a knowledgable honest breeder who can and will work with you err umm I mean a "person" cuz you aren't getting a puppy now.


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## Chamomile (Mar 15, 2007)

Well



: I wouldn't go with either!! But you know why



:

I do have something to add though. I bought all my mini aussies from a breeder just exactly like your #1. She was just so helpful and I felt like I had made a real friend. She and her family raised German Shepherds for many many years before they downsized to the mini aussies. She was just a very helpful and honest gal. Until. I had some trouble! She sold me my male mini aussie and said the papers were coming. That was 2 years ago. And still no papers. Nothing absolutely nothing. I have called and emailed and nothing. It's like she is totally gone! I have talked with her many many times over the last 2 year but when I started pushing for some kind of paperwork a couple of months ago, I haven't been able to get ahold of her since. I am having to hard ship him and my girls into ASDR and am having serious second thoughts about having any puppies. I have removed all my Aussies from my page, except for my Flower on the Scrapbook page... Sigh...

I do have to be honest. This German Shepherd litter has been hard on me. My husband doesn't handle poop and pee very well



: He never did with our two boys either. One time I was outside doing chores and he was in charge of the two boys. Our youngest was just a baby. When I went outside all was well. When I came in about 15 minutes later to check up, the livingroom looked like a war zone and my husband was sitting in there in his underware trying to change a dirty diaper. He said he kinda freaked out and got so hot, trying to work the diaper and the wipes (by the way he used an entire thing of wipes) that he had to take off a few clothes.  I swear I have never laughed so hard!! He is not any better with puppy poop and pee and believe me 10 puppies poop and pee a lot!! So we may not be doing this again!!! Most certainly not with the German Shepherd!

And just a quick note about not being in it for the money... I was very thoughtful with this breeding, the puppies are wonderful, and I'm not in this for the money at all. I just want the puppies to get good homes and be loved forever. I am the same way with my horses and am VERY picky about who I sell to. I ask for references and try as hard as I can to stay in touch. If for any reason the people need to sell the horses or dogs (now that we've brought 10 into this world) they can call me and I'll take it back. I feel very strongly about this.

Anyway, off my soap box! Sorry I feel like I hijacked this thread



: I have terrible PMS lately.



: Earlier my friend Christy was trying to pry me off the forum. I am so grumpy!! 

Good luck Marty, with your "window shopping" but not buying :bgrin


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## mininik (Mar 15, 2007)

Due to the latest "newsflash" you posted (only the dogs OFA certified, no DNA on breeder #1), I would continue my search and not purchase from either breeder. :no:

Especially if these are GSDs you are looking at you really need to have PROOF that both the sire and dam and even some other relations of the litter you are interested in have OFA certified hips AND elbows AS WELL AS have current CERF exams. Having test results for vWD and thyroid panels is also prefered. Of course, both the dog and b*tch should have been at least two years of age before breeding. With your pup you need a solid guarantee letting you know what the breeder will do should your puppy come down with something contagious when you get him or her or should something hereditary pop up even years later. Keep in mind that most responsible breeders will also take their puppies back for life and include this in their contracts.

I say keep looking and definitely avoid falling for the puppy who may catch your eye, but who will probably also break your heart one day as the product of an irresponsible breeder.

Be sure to check out http://www.gsdca.org/ if I'm correct in thinking you are looking at GSDs. If you may consider a rescued dog, always check http://www.petfinder.com

Good luck!


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## Marty (Mar 15, 2007)

_Marty, _

you are being such a rug.

Make sure the puppy is there sunday so I can see it.

Sheryl, there is really no puppy here, promise.

There will be no puppy here on Sunday, super promise.

I am totally not kidding. Window shopping ONLY. Not buying.

Just checking out the market for a hobby. Browsing.

I honestly think that right now, puppy is out. I just

got new leather furniture and 2 years of payments and I

don't plan on having it chewed up. And also, I'm an OLD woman

now, really OLD and decrepid, and don't have the energy to

go through puppy training again and picking up accidents. Furthermore, Jerry

likes to sleep and not be kept up all night long hearing a puppy

cry. He said NO more dogs. Well not exactly, but it's a good excuse.

My heart is not in having another dog.

I am quite surprised however that no one has voted for #2.

That lady also has gaurentees in writting and has some very

good things about her. OH well, I'm only tire kicking.......HONEST.


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## Chamomile (Mar 16, 2007)

Well to be honest I didn't really see anything good mentioned about her (#2)... she just sounds busy and desperate. Not that I haven't been there a few times myself and found that to be the very worst time for me to sell any animal!! What are some good points about her, other than her dogs look to be good? And of course the obvious that "someone" is feeling sorry for her




:


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## Buckskin gal (Mar 16, 2007)

If it were a choice strictly between those two I would go with No.1 It sounds like he is serious about what he is doing where as the overworked woman must have done the breeding to make a few bucks even though she really doesn't have the time for them. Many people raise a litter of puppies to help out financially, not reralizing the work and time involved. But really, the best pet could possibly be one that comes from a shelter. For a loving pet, a registration paper isn't needed. I would check out disposition of dam and sire if I were going to buy from either of them because that is very important to me. Of course you know you would buy a dog in about the same manner as a horse. If someone isn't breeding for the money they must have some extra money to throw away because it does cost something to raise a litter, have the vet vaccinate, remove declaws if there, and check them all over for health. Have fun with your new puppy Marty



:


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## RobinRTrueJoy (Mar 16, 2007)

#1.

Send pics when you get them!

hugs!!!!


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## Jill (Mar 16, 2007)

Hypothetically, _*who*_ do you plan to spend the most time around? The breeder or the puppy?

Personally, I would pick the puppy I like the best PERIOD. I'd be sure it had been screened for any illnesses or negative physical issues that the breed has a predispostion for and then I'd pick the puppy I most liked.

Maybe this sounds cold, but I couldn't give a hoot about the breeder. They're not going to become part of my family.








Marty said:


> Newsflash:
> 
> Breeder #1 has the daddy dog OFA certified, not the mommy yet
> 
> Breeder #2 has the daddy dog OFA and DNA'd but not the mommy either


Okay, having seen the heart break and worry of hip dysplasia in my parents' OES, Oliver, with any dog breed predisposed to this problem, there's NO WAY I'd buy one with this kind of unknown. They make puppies every day and German Shepherds are not a rare find so to speak... I think it's worth continued browsing until you find a breeder that has taken the steps to have both dogs OFA'd with good ratings.


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 16, 2007)

Without reading the replies-

First I would never buy a puppy from anyone that sells them at six weeks- it is far too young for a puppy to leave the nest.

Second I have no problems with the lack of facilities- I have roughly the same facilities and breed for the same reasons and my pups are healthy, and sound and well socialised.

Third a pup can be weaned well before six weeks and should be if they are pulling Mama down- I feed mine from opening of eyes, ie ten days, and they are usually only sucking for comfort by three weeks, BUT they do need the social interaction of their family- they do not need their mother- up to eight weeks minimum, up to twelve weeks if it is possible (but I do realise it often is not.)

There is nothing hard and fast to say the pups from breeder #1 will better than the ones form #2 but you will get an older, better socialised pup in this instance.

Having the sire and dam hip scored is a good way to go but absolutely NO guarantee that the pup will be OK- most breeders will offer a buy back (HAH!!) or money back clause if the pup has bad hips- that is what i would go for in a breed as rife with the problem as GSDs (actually I would go as far as a different breed.......)


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## Warpony (Mar 16, 2007)

mininik said:


> Due to the latest "newsflash" you posted (only the dogs OFA certified, no DNA on breeder #1), I would continue my search and not purchase from either breeder. :no:



I agree. I think #1 is still marginally better, but I would keep looking.


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## Pepipony (Mar 16, 2007)

#1 , no doubt about it, hands down.

We have Heelers, which can be prone to genetic faults. Not knowing that, over a decade ago, we bought 2 from different backyard breeders. One is fine, the other went blind from that genetic problem. So this time instead of buying from a rescue ( they couldnt guarantee health) I went with a breeder much like your #1. Loved Dallas with all my heart, but I cannot go through having a blind dog again.

Good luck in your 'not buying'



:


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## Debby - LB (Mar 16, 2007)

Well I read a few of the replies on the first page and then went to look for some other posts..... I'm sorry to say I did not know you lost your Tracy.... I'm so sorry to hear that Marty.

To answer your questions if I were looking to purchase a GSD pup I'd go to a reputable breeder who had *both sire and dam * hip certified and who guranteed their pups and I would want to visit them and also see references to the puppies they had placed prior.

Years and years ago I had GSD's I loved my last one Rambo the best, he lived to be almost 14, never will have one here again...that's the bad part about having purebreds I still can't see one without seeing Rambo. ....Now to the present, it's been a year and 3 months since I lost my Chewbacca (Chewy) and last weekend I took her half bag of dog food out of the small trash can that has sat in the corner of my kitchen all this time and threw it away....Baby Girl (husbands Boston) did not eat the same kind of food, and Dolly my Pyr was certainly not getting my Chewys food, it was her food. Her collar is here, I couldn't bury it with her it's on a shelf uner her photo. I couldn't have loved my Chewy more if I'd given birth to her. I'll probably always have a livestock guardian but I'll never have another house dog I didn't even consider Chewy "a dog" she can't be replaced but I do know people do this and if that is what you need don't apologize to the people on here....obviously you want and need another companion or you wouldn't be looking and talking so indepth with breeders. Good luck to you Marty.


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## Nemesis (Mar 16, 2007)

Debby said:


> and also see references to the puppies they had placed prior. .


I am all for asking for references but in reality how many people are going to give out less than the glowing references for anyone to check up on? When I have asked people for references I have never been given a less than glowing reference from anyone to check on. I dont recall ever being given a reference to check that said "these people are scum we wouldnt buy from them again".


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## capall beag (Mar 16, 2007)

After reading more of the replies I wanted to ad that references and guarantees mean very little to me BUT all pups are cute. Really I would look at the parents and decide!

I do think with large breeds(in particular) with many known health issues testing is key NOT to guarantee pups health (genetics can be very unpredictable) BUT to guarantee the parents are breeding sound!

Another of my pet peeves owners breeding dogs with poor temperaments :no:

Marty, I know it is none of my business BUT I think a puppy would be soooooooo wonderful for you! One of Mindy's pups



: Of course, I want one of them too but fat chance!

A sweet, old lady,(almost 80), recently widowed after many years of marriage, took a little dog of mine( a young dog) and it has been the best thing for her! She said the dog is pure joy to her!!

She has written into her will that her daughter or I will get the dog should something happen.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Mar 16, 2007)

Personally, I'd go with #1. Change "breeds Shepards" to "Breeds Minis" and there is no comparison. I wouldn't buy a horse from #2 if the mare was thin and pulled down.

OK, no puppy for Marty. Go to www.petfinder.com and get a rescue older dog who's house trained and crew proofed!



And you'll save a life in the process!

Lucy


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## tagalong (Mar 16, 2007)

I would respect any breeder who takes responsibilty for the puppies they produce - _for the life of that dog_.

Every breeder I have dealt with - Borzois, Smooth Fox Terriers and Border Terriers - made it very clear if for any reason I could not care for the dog involved - that they would take the dog back and re-home him/her or keep them.

Any breeder who only wants to take deposits and move 'em out... I would not consider. No matter what breed - or how cute the puppy is. Puppy cuteness... is the last thing to consider. All puppies are cute. Okay - maybe not - young borzoi puppies are... well, not "cute" per se... :bgrin

And never, ever go with your first choice right off the bat... if they seem great, keep looking anyway and checking other breeders out - if the one you first liked still holds up - then go back to them. JMHO.


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## Filipowicz Farm (Mar 16, 2007)

I would buy from breeder number 1.


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## Bluerocket (Mar 16, 2007)

Actually -- at this point in my life --- neither one -- I would check with a Breed Rescue for the chosen breed --- or go to the local pound.


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## runamuk (Mar 16, 2007)

Marty said:


> Ok this is hypothetical, sorta.
> 
> First I am NOT getting a puppy, ok?
> 
> ...


Hands down breeder number 1. That breeder will more than likely guarantee the pup against known health issues in the breed. You want a breeder with experience and someone who can help you along the way. Also it is much better for the pups to stay with the littermates until 10-12 weeks as they learn valuable social skills.

Hypothetically if this is a GSD I would never buy from someone who isn't aware of the bloodlines and health issues...........it is heartbreaking to lose a dog at a young age to preventable health problems.

just my opinion


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## mad for mini's (Mar 16, 2007)

I myself tend to shy away from the so called "big" breeders. I don't believe that pups that are kenneled with mom and receive little human contact make as good of a family dog. I like that the so called backyard breeders have the pups in the house with the family, living among humans and are handled by children . The looks of the mom and care of the pups have to be taken into consideration at either place. And being OFA certified does not mean that they won't develop hip problems. I know of people that have bought OFA certified pups to later have them develop problems anyway. As for guarantees, they are nice if the seller is offering to refund the purchase price and pay for vet bills if something genetic goes wrong but if it states that a replacement will be made would you part with your pup to accept a replacement? (Unless of course that said pup is deceased) I would keep looking, there are good "backyard breeders" out there, anyone willing to part with pups at six weeks is not looking out for the best interest of the pups and even though the big time breeder knows alot about his dogs, his pups may not be well socialized. Have fun " just looking" :bgrin


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## PaintedPromiseRanch (Mar 16, 2007)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> OK, no puppy for Marty. Go to www.petfinder.com and get a rescue older dog who's house trained and crew proofed!
> 
> 
> 
> And you'll save a life in the process!




I'd agree with Lucy on that one! or...you could do like my mom did. She accidentally ended up with a Sheltie, a bit older and abused... had her for several years, totally fell in love with the breed... so when she lost Lady, she called the Humane Society and they referred her to a Sheltie specific rescue... and very shortly she brought home Tracy, who belonged to a teenage girl, going off to college and could not take her with, and parents did not want to be responsible for the dog... again an older dog so of course, the downfall with this choice... she had less time with her than if she had gotten a puppy, but being "old and decrepit" like you Marty...



: a puppy was definitely not on her agenda.

i wish you had been here last spring... i was at a local animal shelter for therapy-animal training and there were several young adult dogs that had come into the shelter as a result of Katrina... of course no history at all but one of them sure looked like a beautiful GSD...


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## Nemesis (Mar 16, 2007)

mad for mini's said:


> I myself tend to shy away from the so called "big" breeders. I don't believe that pups that are kenneled with mom and receive little human contact make as good of a family dog. I like that the so called backyard breeders have the pups in the house with the family, living among humans and are handled by children . The looks of the mom and care of the pups have to be taken into consideration at either place. And being OFA certified does not mean that they won't develop hip problems. I know of people that have bought OFA certified pups to later have them develop problems anyway. As for guarantees, they are nice if the seller is offering to refund the purchase price and pay for vet bills if something genetic goes wrong but if it states that a replacement will be made would you part with your pup to accept a replacement? (Unless of course that said pup is deceased) I would keep looking, there are good "backyard breeders" out there, anyone willing to part with pups at six weeks is not looking out for the best interest of the pups and even though the big time breeder knows alot about his dogs, his pups may not be well socialized. Have fun " just looking" :bgrin


Most "big breeders" and by that I mean big name show breeders as opposed to puppy millers take excellent care of their puppies. They are well socialized and well adapted to life. I have yet to see a puppy in my breed that came from a "Big" breeder who was shy or scared of things.

Puppies cannot be OFA certified until 2 years old which is why breeders give a guarantee as we all know that OFA while it is a great tool to work with does not guarantee that a puppy from two OFA excellent parents cannot develop hip, elbow or knee problems. As for breeders offering money back. I can tell you I know fo NO breeder who will give money back but I know many who back up their contracts with replacement puppies. And No the vast majority do not require the puppy to be returned, why woudl they want to take the puppy form a hoem its loved in and have to place it again. They do however require that the puppy be spayed or neutered before a replacement is given.

And a BYB is usually ill informed on what the breed is about and wouldnt know a breed standard if it jumped up and bit them in the butt. Take a look at puppyfind to see that. Then ask the people who are selling the pupa anything about the pedigrees and health clearances and they go blank. Then of course try askign the BYB for money back or a replacement when things go wrong and see how quickly they have dissapeared.


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## mad for mini's (Mar 16, 2007)

Nemesis , Thanks for the explaination of common guarantees that breeders offer. I have never had to use one so I was only going by what I had heard from others. My relpy was assuming that you don't care about breed standards or pedigrees , and are just looking to own a healthy , friendly family dog . Not being interested in showing or not minding if they aren't quite perfect in every aspect but just wanting a good healthy pup. I was a backyard breeder , I had two litters out of my Llewellin Setter . She is an excellent dog with good pedigree and I wanted to see more of these dogs out there and let people know how wonderful they are. I backed all my pups with an oral agreement that if anything was wrong to let me know and I would either take the pup back or refund money for them. I did have a pup with eye problems sold that I did later pay for the vet bills to have the problem repaired and I request pictures and place monthly calls until I am satisfied that the pup has a good home and the new owners are completely satisfied with the pup. Sometimes a backyard breeder is not all bad. I would still choose to buy a pup that was raised inside with people .


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## mininik (Mar 16, 2007)

mad for minis- Even if you just want a healthy family pet and are not the least bit interested in showing you SHOULD be concerned about pedigree and breed standard. Knowing your dog's pedigree when breeding can help produce healthier pups in the case of hereditary health problems, not to mention halt inbreeding or linebreeding without proper research. Breed standard isn't just for showing but is pretty much what getting a purebred dog is all about (a certain look and temperament). Build is also important for a dog's long-term health.

If you don't care what your dog is going to look like (not breeding to standard) or if it may have health issues (because the pedigree wasn't properly researched), you're better off getting a speutered rescue to take chances on. Producing puppies just to produce more of your beloved pet without properly researching pedigree, health problems and breed standard does not guarantee you'll even get close to what you started with.

As for verbal contracts...


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## Miniv (Mar 16, 2007)

Marty,

If you are set on buying from a breeder, then I would also say Breeder #1.

My actual first choice would be to look into a Rescue Organization for the breed you are looking for.

MA


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## mad for mini's (Mar 16, 2007)

Well , I guess I should appologize . For the sake of shorting things up I had left out alot of details about breeding that seems to have caused some confusion. So there is alot that wasn't said here about this. And apparently a persons' word doesn't mean much any more...that is sad. :no:

mininik : my pedigrees were greatly scrutinized before I decided to breed her. I had no intention of breeding her when I bought her but after learning her background and learning everything I could and seeing what a wonderful family member she has become we decided to breed her. And no one can guarantee a perfectly healthy dog, sometimes things can just happen.

JMO




:

Edit to add that I have 7 dogs of differing breeds all from small breeders that I have had no problems at all with , the only dog that I have had trouble with was from a reputable breeder with impeccable bloodlines and OFA certified parents . She died at six years of age from what the vet said was cancer, it has been 10 years since but the memory of watching her die still haunts me.


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## mininik (Mar 16, 2007)

No need to apologize. My post was less about what you said or did and more about what people commonly do not knowing any better or thinking what often happens won't happen to them. Of course no one can guarantee a perfectly healthy dog, but there's really no need to take so many chances anymore. As for verbal contracts, I think we see it enough even on this forum where they often go bad on one end or the other. Even people who meant it when they said they would do this or that sometimes can't follow through when they need to so it's always best to have everything agreed upon in writing and signed by both parties.



:


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## Shelley (Mar 16, 2007)

mad for mini's said:


> II know of people that have bought OFA certified pups to later have them develop problems anyway.


OH DEAR!!! It is this way of thinking that has gotten so many breeds in trouble in the first place!

First, it is the parents that are OFA certified, not the puppies. No, it is no guarantee, but it certainly

does increase the chances that the puppies won't have a problem. It's generation after generation

of testing and selective breeding that eliminates these problems...it's those that don't test and breed

blindly that perpetuate them!

Especially in a breed like German Shepherds, OFA certified parents are a MUST!

A word to the wise...if any breeder you are talking to does not test, says "their line does not

have any problems", or worse yet, they don't even know what they are supposed to be testing for...

RUN FAR, RUN FAST!!!

Shelley


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## Katie12 (Mar 16, 2007)

I think Breeder #1 is just talking a good game. He is not too responsible if he is breeding and hasn' OFA'd the mother. With this breed especially.I'd keep looking. Oh that's right your not!


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## qtrrae (Mar 16, 2007)

Marty,

I would not even consider buying a puppy from someone who "moves" them at 6 weeks of age.

To me that is way too young - we have always had German Shepherds and the majority of breeders do something similar to breeder #1 - ( Weans his dogs at 8 weeks but prefers they do not leave until they are closer to 10- 12, so he can observe them.) To me this is someone that really cares about the puppy and they want to make sure it will be ready for a new family.

I know you can never replace Tracey but someday you will be ready and my friend, I just KNOW you will become a German Shepherd "Mom" once again. Only "you" will know when the time is right, I do know that you are feeling the loss of Tracey something dreadful. She was very special to you and I can just imagine how difficult it is to be actually able to move without having that big precious Tracey to

stumble" over.

I know that my day with Keisha is coming soon, she is 13 years old and is really starting to show her age but she is still determined to go every where that I go and is always under my feet and I LOVE it!

Hugs and keep on hypothetically "checking" out those puppies!!


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## Nemesis (Mar 17, 2007)

Katie12 said:


> I think Breeder #1 is just talking a good game. He is not too responsible if he is breeding and hasn' OFA'd the mother. With this breed especially.I'd keep looking. Oh that's right your not!


Could he have prelim'd mom through OFA or had a vet do hip X rays and clear her as sound no defects? Either way she would have no official OFA number but would have had her hips checked and both would be provable either with the prelim certificate or the vets x ray report.


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## runamuk (Mar 17, 2007)

People breeder number 1 did NOT breed traceys dam...here is what it said in the original post



> He also knew her mother and what was wrong in that bloodline which came from the mother's side. He told the owners she should be spayed and not bred at all, but of course they didn't listen,


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## Marty (Mar 17, 2007)

Jerry took me on a road trip today to look at GSD puppies, and guess what happened?

I looked at the daddy.

I looked at the mommy.

I carefully looked at the facility and the way they were all cared for.

Then I looked at the contract.

Everything seemed to be in good order.

Then I saw a wonderful bouncing baby girl that came right over to me and began to pull at my shoelaces.

I picked her up and held her so close.

And then I patted her on the back like I was burping her.

She was wonderful.

I got all misty.

I showed her to Jerry.

He smiled.

He asked me if I wanted that one.

I said no.

I put her back down and we left.

I'm just not ready at all.

I think that man is going to strangle the daylights out of me yet.

It's hard being me.


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## runamuk (Mar 17, 2007)

AWWW Marty you will be ready when the right one is there. I know how hard it is. Let yourself grieve and just be open to what will come your way.


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## ChrystalPaths (Mar 18, 2007)

Marty...(I'm saying this ever so quietly and gently)...you speak of "signs"...shoe lace tugs, holds like a child, made you smile? Could these have been signs? I won't say another word.


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## Minimor (Mar 18, 2007)

Personally I prefer backyard breeders to fancy kennel owners.

Me with my nasty suspicious mind has to wonder--do we know for sure that breeder #1 is really as knowledgeable as he lets on, or does he just talk a good line. Anyone with a gift to gab can string a good line to someone that is less familiar with the subject breed. If you don't know the facts, you can get taken in by a line of BS. If a knowledgeable breeder talks to the same person, he may see the guy's knowledge totally differently from how you see it. If the most knowledgeable breeder in the country were to talk to this guy--would he/she be impressed with the fellow?

"I'm not in it for the money". Ya, sure. We hear that one often.

As for the part about him owning Tracy's sire, and saying all Tracy's problems came from her mother? Would you expect him to say oh the mother was wonderful, but I owned the father & some of his pups did have problems? Would you really?

Sorry, breeder #1 doesn't impress me so far.


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## Ashley (Mar 18, 2007)

Neither. I beleive Marty will go with neither but will rescue another dog!


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## Marty (Mar 18, 2007)

_ #1 is really as knowledgeable as he lets on, or does he just talk a good line._

No, he's knowledgable and I'm not easily impressed, but I've been around the block a few times and I know a line of BS when I hear it.

_"I'm not in it for the money"._

I sure do believe that one.

This is a hobby.

He doesn't need a dime or a job.

_As for the part about him owning Tracy's sire, and saying all Tracy's problems came from her mother? _

He offered the information. He could have said nothing and said he never heard of those dogs. But he stepped right up and said "that was my dog!" etc. (Who incidentally was OFA with a score of good.)Furthermore, Traceys momma was put down 6 years ago with the same problems that Tracey had. So that's a clue.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Mar 18, 2007)

without reading anyones answers I first would say it would depend on what I was looking for in a dog.

Looking for a pet, to breed or to show.

I surely dont think someone knowing the ins and outs of showing makes them a more responsible breeder that has been shown to me again and again in horses.

I never believe anyone who says they are not in it for the money.. there are enough of any animals in the world to not need to breed anymore no matter how good you think yours are.. whether you break even or make a little bit you are making money. If somone wasnt in it for the money in any way shape or form.. they would be giving the pups away or selling way cheap not in the hundreds no matter what the quality.

again it would totally depend on what I wanted out of a dog as to where I looked for a pup but I wouldnt discount that perfect match being found at a small or backyard breeder.

Everyone looks for something differen, clean kennels yes good basic care yes me personallyI would want a pup from dogs that had tons of daily family interaction not in a kennel all day. Both can be equally as cared for and healthy perhaps even the kennel ones a better "quality " when it comes to show dogs but for me I want to see how mom and dad react and want one that would be raised in a family atmosphere not a kennel atmosphere as that is what would fit in best with our family.

I think very early on there personalities are pretty set I didnt realize that till we had pups of our own but way before the 6 -8 week mark so Iwould want to know how at a young age they interacted wtih kids, lots of people around, cats, other dogs ect..

you just have to figure out what is important to you


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## Matt73 (Mar 18, 2007)

#1 for sure.


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## Warpony (Mar 18, 2007)

Marty said:


> He asked me if I wanted that one.
> 
> I said no.
> 
> ...



(((hug)))

You'll be ready when you are ready and not one moment sooner... there is no shame in that at all.


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## qtrrae (Mar 18, 2007)

Marty,

I'm with Karla - she won't ever replace Tracey but she will help to ease the pain in your heart.


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## minisaremighty (Mar 18, 2007)

Marty said:


> I think that man is going to strangle the daylights out of me yet.







: No he's not Marty! If I was a breeder of his caliber I would be VERY understanding and happy that you are being so cautious. I would know that if/when you do decide on a pup, you would be the best mommy ever. You are not rushing into it and that's very important to a breeder. No breeder wants someone to just rush into buying their beloved puppies.

I thought for sure I was driving my breeder nuts by visiting her place 3 times (for almost 2 hours each time!) and still asking tons of questions. Then after I decided on waiting for a puppy, I've been in touch weekly (and let's see that's been 6 weeks ago!). I told her I hope I wasn't bugging her and she told me she's more than thrilled that I'm taking such an interest. Most people that want a pup from her, they call once, get on the list and she never hears from them again until she calls them to tell them the pups are here. Not me! I intend to be there when both litters are born, too, since she invited me.



:

If he truly loves the breed as much as I think he does, he'll enjoy you visiting any time! Regardless of how wishy washy you think you are being



: Go back a few more times and just see what happens. Nothing says you have to make up your mind NOW. Give it time.


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## bcody (Mar 18, 2007)

Marty,

I'm sorry, but I agree with Karla too.

Here is part of a quote:

A new dog never replaces an old dog;

it merely expands the heart.

If you have loved many dogs, your heart is very big."

Erica Jong

We all know how big your heart is Marty, when your ready, I hope you let another dog share your life. Follow your heart.


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## justanothercowgirl (Mar 18, 2007)

Awww...I am glad you got to hug a puppy Marty and to be honest I don't think I have ever picked out any of my dogs or puppies they always pick me LOL as for what breeder? I would go with my gut feeling, I usually listen to that.

Pammy


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## mydaddysjag (Mar 18, 2007)

Go get the puppy from breeder #1. There are enough genetic faults in the German Shepherd breed, and atleast he admits the the breed has its flaws.


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## PaintedPromiseRanch (Mar 19, 2007)

Marty said:


> Jerry took me on a road trip today to look at GSD puppies, and guess what happened?
> Then I saw a wonderful bouncing baby girl that came right over to me and began to pull at my shoelaces.
> 
> I picked her up and held her so close.
> ...




Marty you have me in tears... God bless you!!!!! and when you ARE ready, i will have tears then too but they will be happy ones.


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