# Hybrid wolves



## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

I've always had a hybrid, they are the prettist (IMO).

My last one had to be put down because she was almost 17 and couldn't make another summer, and she couldn't see, hear, and lost all her teeth, and finally her hips gave out.

I got a new "wolf puppy" and got her to were she was the best dog. Her only problem is the love of killing chickens (LOL). She loves kids, my little cousin rides on her back. She is the babysitter of the minis, everytime she sees or hears a coyote she lets me know.

Last year I was checking fence and I fould a cogar killing a three year old quarter horse. Well if belle (wolf) wasn't there, I wouldn't be here now!!! She got hurt but healed, a few cuts.

Well there are a lot of people that say they are as bad as pits, and we should ban pits and hybrids from our town........ I don't think any dog is bad, its ALWAYS the owners.

What kind of things can I use to make sure they would get ban.....

What can I say to get them to think its the owner......

I don't want to lose my dog because of the other stupid people around.....


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## Bluerocket (Oct 4, 2007)

sounds like you have some nice hybrids -- personally had never heard of them and thus was totally unaware of any controversy.


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## Jill (Oct 4, 2007)

Why do pit bulls have a bad reputation? A lot of people own and love them. How about Rottweillers? They've got a bad reputation yet many own and love them. It's because there have been bad experiences with those breeds, and hybrids. Does that mean all are bad? Of course not. Some that are bad, are bad because they were not handled right by their people.

I will say that I have a lab x chow mix as well as my purebred dogs. I will never own another dog with chow in it because this dog has been around livestock since she was a puppy, but she is very agressive towards them (and to strangers). We didn't raise her to be that way -- that is just how she is and I can only assume that's the chow based on all I have since read. Breeds DO have a many common traits and some of those can cause bad reputations, or good ones. It's like a stereotype that is based on things that are common to the breed (or hybrid) but not present in ALL, just in many or in enough to "make the news".

We will never again choose to have a dog that is not pre-disposed to be good with livestock. In addition to bigger livestock friendly dogs, we always probably own toy dogs that will never be able to be in with the horses. I do think herding breeds make ideal choices for people who have minis, but they are not the only good choice at all. Personally, though, I cannot imagine WE would ever, ever have a wolf hybrid. I have met a few, long before I had horses. They were nice and attractive, but not any prettier than my predisposed to love the minis and be livestock friendly collie, Kelsey




:


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

The first month of the puppies life they go and stay with sheep, chickens, and one mini...so they are exposed to evereything. The breeders take them to parks, etc.

I take my dog to the drive in movies.....she likes cotton candy!!


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## runamuk (Oct 4, 2007)

heart k ranch said:


> I've always had a hybrid, they are the prettist (IMO).
> 
> My last one had to be put down because she was almost 17 and couldn't make another summer, and she couldn't see, hear, and lost all her teeth, and finally her hips gave out.
> 
> ...


If you want good advice on how to fight bad legislation like breed specific bans you need to join the pet law yahoo group it is an email list and you can find the link in my signature.

BSL is bad for dogs and bad for dog owners doesn't matter if it is a wolf hybrid or a pit or a german shepherd it is owners who need to be punished not dogs.

I've met a number of wolf hybrids over the years who were great dogs and we grew up with a coyote hybrid who was our babysitter



:


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

Thanks, my babysitter was a wolf (100 % timber wolf), solid black and right at 150 pounds. Everyone was scared of him, but he was a big teddy bear.

His name was teddy, LOL....


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## runamuk (Oct 4, 2007)

Jill said:


> I will say that I have a lab x chow mix as well as my purebred dogs. I will never own another dog with chow in it because this dog has been around livestock since she was a puppy, but she is very agressive towards them (and to strangers). We didn't raise her to be that way -- that is just how she is and I can only assume that's the chow


Jill it isn't the chow I have owned and loved chows for 20 years and NEVER had one be bad with livestock. I have mainly had older ones that came to me at over a year up to 11 years old and none ever were bad with the horses. Chickens and bunnies well sure my poodle is lethal to chickens (he's a bird dog after all



: )

Chows were originally used for herding, guarding, and pulling. The problem I find (just my opinion here) is when breeds mix you can get a whole host of traits you may not want. As for herding dogs and horses, they can work well or not so well depending on the dog some are just too intense and driven to herd and can be as much a problem as any other breed.

There is so much mis information out there with regards to dogs, and many breeds have reputations based on few instances that are not the norm.


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## Shari (Oct 4, 2007)

Depends on the breeder and owner. Unfortunely I have found out some people have dumped their wolf hybrids when they could not handle them any longer (talking with the local Fish & Game folks)...they are not afraid of humans and breed into the local population and cause all kinds of problems with humans, pets and livestock.

Have no problems with owners if they know how to properly handle their dogs or Wolves and don't dump them on others.


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

Shari said:


> Depends on the breeder and owner. Unfortunely I have found out some people have dumped their wolf hybrids when they could not handle them any longer (talking with the local Fish & Game folks)...they are not afraid of humans and breed into the local population and cause all kinds of problems with humans, pets and livestock.
> 
> Have no problems with owners if they know how to properly handle their dogs or Wolves and don't dump them on others.


Agree, I've had people gave me the wolf-dogs because they didn't know the right way to handle them. The dogs are scared and then try to bite, wolf-dogs that run off, kill things. I have rehomed a few but like I said before it's alway the owners fault not the dogs/horses/cats/birds/etc faults.....

the fish and game people around here say that people are dumping the wolf-dogs at the parks and people run into the animals.


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## rockin r (Oct 4, 2007)

runamuk said:


> heart k ranch said:
> 
> 
> > I've always had a hybrid, they are the prettist (IMO).
> ...


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

AND A VERY PRETTY ONE!!!!!


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## mininik (Oct 4, 2007)

Wow, you can really see the Coyote in Okie's face... gorgeous!



:

A friend's family owns a Coyote/feral dog mix that they rescued from the streets of old Mexico. She definitely looks and sometimes acts the part of a wild, desert bred dog. She's more timid than anything, and very pretty.

As a groomer, I've groomed countless dogs of pure and mixed breeds with bad raps. The list includes hybrids, "Pit Bulls," rottweilers, spitz, Cocker Spaniels, etc. and so far I've not had any problems. I think it's unfortunate that more people don't spend time learning to read a dog to avoid getting bit, or worse. Early socialization and training are also vital, no matter the breed. Rarely do dogs just snap, but with the way most people treat them it's a wonder there aren't more dogs stereotyped as "vicious!"



:


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## rockin r (Oct 4, 2007)

heart k ranch said:


> AND A VERY PRETTY ONE!!!!!



This "DOG" has never been mistreated. We did not even play with her face when she was a pup and still don't..I have had her since she was 6 weeks old. She is now 6 yrs. old. She was the smartest puppy. House broke in a week, claimed "HER TERRITORY" by the time she was 3 months old. Sleeps with us everynight at the foot of our bed facing the bedroom door. The growl she can produce will make the hair stand up on the back of your neck! She has never biten any one, but she has chased off a few coyotes. I would recommend a hybird to anyone. It is all in how they are raised. (And Loved)



:


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Oct 4, 2007)

I had two wolf X shepards, which was one of the best dogs we have ever owned. I had Bambi for 17 years, we lost her 2 years ago to old age, and Rambo for 14 yrs, also lost him to old age. I came home with the complete litter of pups which the owner didnt want, he was afraid the dogs would grow up to be mean. I found homes for 5 of the puppies, and we kept 2. Every one was socializied early in life and there never was a problem with any of them, other then our Rambo, who would love to play "get the kitty" so we did have to watch him on that part. I would definitely get a hybrid again. Corinne


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## StellaLenoir (Oct 4, 2007)

I may get flamed, but I do not think all cases of animal aggresion are directly a persons fault. But ultimatly as human beings are the top of the animal world, (so far) we are responsible for whatever we do.

There was just a case I saw today, of a woman who was killed by her own 2 pit bulls. She had them since pups, they were her babies. Was her death her fault? She did not fight her dogs, they were her house pets.

Dogs were bred for hundreds of years, and still are to strengthen certain traits and to weaken others. Like some dogs are bred to be sight hounds, some scent hounds, some retreivers, some herding dogs, some dogs were bred for protection,some unfortunatly to fight. I think we have to accept the fact that a dog is going to have instincts good or bad, and with or without training it will resort to its instincts. Sometimes that means your german shepherd will herd your kids, or your terrier will chase the cat, or an afgan hound will chase whatever runs.

Think of grayhounds, the rescues usually ask if you have small dogs,cats,ect, why? because they are bred to chase! Of course there are grayhounds that are lazy and could care less that Kitty is running, but they are more likely to run after the cat. Not because they are evil but because we humans bred them to run fast after small fuzzy animals.

How many of you know people that have Beagles? My grandpa had them his whole life, and if let out they roam, not because they want to get lost or run over by a car, but because they were bred to follow their nose.

I have chihuahuas, they are bred now to be pets but arent they know for being yappy? It is a trait of theirs, I know mine are, I try to train them to be quite but they are inherently barky dogs.

Some dogs are bred to fight, that is our fault as humans yes, we chose to fight dogs for sport. Now we have several breeds that are popular now that have a predispositon to fight. I think pit bulls and similar breeds are some of the most beautifull out there. They have big eyes and the smile they have is adorable. But I do think they have a greater chance of being aggresive than a dog bred for being say a retriever. Look at the anatomy of a pit bull, the jaw is made to hold tight and not release. Not all breeds have a jaw like that. Just like some breeds have long legs, or big years for hearing.

For what ever reason people have these dogs and try to say they are no different than any other dog, I dont agree. That would mean there is no difference between a cairn terrier and a great dane. How much training do you think it would take for a great dane to go through tunnels? Yes maybe you could train your Great dane, but would it just by instinct go through to chase a rat? But it is more likely for a cairn to have the instinct to do so. I am not saying all of them will but that is what they were bred for.

It is all to easy to ruin a good dog and make them aggresive, or to let a naturaly aggresive dog get out of hand. I am sure there are any number of mean small dogs, just like there are mean big dogs. But I think we are selfish to take dogs bred for fighting or extreme protection and make them family pets. They are not bred to be family pets. Yes, some of the controversal breeds are NOW being bred to be family pets, but recent breeding does not erase history.

Everyone knows there are horses bred for different purposes, and that they excel at different things, it is no different in dogs. If you are going to own an animal you need to know what is in its nature to do and be realistic about it.

I think people put to much personal emotion into the debate on dogs, because we have evolved right along side them. But we have to face reality they are creatures of instinct and we can only train them so much, inside they are still going to be whatever kind of dog they are.

As far a wolf hybrids, again they are beautifull and in the right hands, I am sure they are great. But they have instincts, and some of those are not so good for the average home enviornment. Not becaust the wolf dog is bad, but because thay are still close enough in the evolutionary chain to be wild. Would you as a wolf lover really want to equate your wolf dog to a chihuahua? I would be proud of the nature of my wolf, part of the beauty of them is the wild nature. But at the same time, I would not kid myself that they are not more capable of doing harm than the chi. (THe you I am refering to is figurative, not any poster)

We seem to have gotten so caught up in* everything* having to be Equal, that we are forgeting the differences in things is what makes the world go around.

I am not slamming any dog breed I love them all, but that does not mean I am capable of handeling all of them. And I have had my fair share of breeds through rescue, and my personal pets.


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

I agree with you.

I couldn't handle having some types of dogs, but since I been raised around hybrids and have plenty of room for them to run, I have them. I also have knowledge about them. They aren't the type that can be kept in a cage.

I needed a working type protector dog, I got belle. If I needed herding dogs I would get a auzzie, if I wanted a house pet, a pomerian.......so on and so on

a lot of people gets some dogs because they are pretty looking, then after the puppy wears off they get rid of the dog because something is wrong withit. but thats what the dog is bred to do.


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## mininik (Oct 4, 2007)

Dogs are dogs first, then whatever breed. ALL dogs have the same basic, canine instincts. Due to selective breeding, some of those instincts have been bred for or bred mostly out of a breed. Knowing this, people need to be selective when picking a dog, not just picking whichever is tough, cute, pretty or in a certain price range. After that, it's socialization and training time and not just for a few weeks in a class, but for the rest of that dog's life.

I've heard many stories of someone's dog "baby" turning on them, and often times it's no wonder. Many professinoal trainers make a living off of these scenarios! People who treat their dogs like human children are denying them their heritage and setting them up to live in a world of confusion. Love your dog, but loving them without consistant rules, discipline and boundaries is not fair. Others love their dogs and do a great job at keeping them, but fail to understand how to read a dog's body language. Sometimes, just a shift of a fissure is all the warning you get to back off...


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## Sonya (Oct 4, 2007)

Why are people negative about others owning wolf hybrids?...it's simple...a wolf is a wild animal and it's going to take much more than a couple generations of consistant domesticating them for them to be accepted as "pets". End of story!


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

Sonya said:


> Why are people negative about others owning wolf hybrids?...it's simple...a wolf is a wild animal and it's going to take much more than a couple generations of consistant domesticating them for them to be accepted as "pets". End of story!


Thats not what I mean. Half the people run away if you say wolf..... If you can handle them why not.

Domesticating.......whats that (joke)

same thing as handling a mustang!!!!!!!!!!!!!1


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## Lisa (Oct 4, 2007)

heart k ranch said:


> Sonya said:
> 
> 
> > Why are people negative about others owning wolf hybrids?...it's simple...a wolf is a wild animal and it's going to take much more than a couple generations of consistant domesticating them for them to be accepted as "pets". End of story!
> ...


I would first like to say that I would love to have a wolf hybrid, but I'm not sure I would. I have mixed feelings about them.

Stella- I very much agree with what you say!

Unfortunately, Heart, I do not agree with you that it is the same as handling a mustang. A mustang, while a wild, unpredictable animal, is not a hunter. They are a flight animal, if they fear they will run. A wolf on the other hand is a fight animal. If they fear, they will stand and they will attack. Sonya is right that they are wild animals, and therefore they are unpredictable.

I have come in contact with several wolf and coyote hybrids. They were generally wonderful animals, but I would not ever say they were completely domesticated. One of my best friends and ex-boyfriend had a wolf x husky cross. She was a great girl, but she was also not completely domestic. She would take off just for the joy of running and chase after anything if given the chance.

I do not think it is fully a matter of being able to handle them. They are not like a typical dog. My grandparents had a 3/4 wolf who was a holy terror. She was a beautiful animal, very nice, but she could give you a look that made you KNOW that she is as smart as you and if given the chance she would dominate you. My grandfather had to fight this dog on more than one occasion to keep her in line (no, he never beat her).

Again, very unfortunate, but not all dogs are bad because of their owners. Some just are.



> Her only problem is the love of killing chickens (LOL).


You may not like me much for this, but I must address it. This worries me. Any animal agressive dog is a danger. I do not think it is "LOL" for your wolf to be killing chickens. I have heard of way too many dogs who have gone from "oh they just like killing mice or chickens" to killing cats, other dogs, and sometimes even going after children. You should keep a good watch on your wolf, this is a danger waiting to happen.

All of that said, just because an animal is a wolf, or a pit or a rottie, is not a necessary indication that it is bad. We have had numerous threads on this forum regarding the dangers of certain breeds. It comes down to the dog (or wolf's) temperament, handling, breeding and capability.


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## New_Image (Oct 4, 2007)

I think they are* beautiful *dogs




: Planning to get one the day I own my own house.

We had a husky that was 1/4 wolf. My dad had a 3/4 wolf 1/4 German Shepherd when he was younger. They were great dogs



: My husky was a bit on the stupid side but wouldn't hurt a fly



: I have a friend who owned 2 purebred wolves, they were her best buddies, more tricky to own then your average pug or lab yes, but not in the least bit mean. Personally I love them, and would choose something with wolf breeding over anything.


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

Lisa said:


> heart k ranch said:
> 
> 
> > Sonya said:
> ...



She thinks it's a game, she doesn't know what she's doing until I get on to her. She hasn't been mean to any thing in the last few months....It doesn't worry me, because she is still young and playing....

Mustangs are still considered "wild" animals, right...

Husky are known for running off, LOL, but like you said it matters on the dog not the breed....



New_Image said:


> I think they are* beautiful *dogs
> 
> 
> 
> ...



thanks........

I think the only thing that matters is the owner/handler...........Some people can handle them others can't


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## Sonya (Oct 4, 2007)

A mustang and a wolf...no comparison...a mustang is a "flight" animal and a wolf is a "fight" animal. I'm not saying that it should be that way, that's just why I think some would not accept a wolf hybrid as a pet. A wolf is not a domesticated animal..it is wild. And a few people saying that they have them and they are great, mild mannered pets is not going to change the fact that it is still a wild animal. Like I said not that I totally agree with that, but that's why they are not going to be accepted. But, I would not want my neighbor to have one either, just like I wouldn't want my neighbor to have a lion.


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

I think your wrong on some points...

It is wild when it's not been in contact with humans!!!

A wolf-dog isn't as bad as a lion.....that going off the deep end....

Some people wouldn't want a hybrid BUT that doesn't mean everyone has to think like that!!

Hello just because you don't like it, doesn't mean everyone does!!!!!!!1


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## runamuk (Oct 4, 2007)

Actually you raise a very important point. Every breed was created for a purpose. If people would take the time to actually research and understand what a breed was bred for before "running out and getting one because they are popular" we wouldn't be in the situation we are today.

Pomeranians can kill and have an infant was killed by one......of course it didn't make headline news.

Even though it seems dog attacks are rampant the actual number of attacks is very low along with the number of deaths. The difference is dog attacks make great news. All the people who died from bee stings is not great news.

It isn't that I believe all dogs are the same, I am a huge proponent of researching before buying and never buying on looks alone. What I do believe is that BSL is wrong.

for fun you can review this odds of dying chart and see that you are far more likely to be killed by law enforcement than by dog attack :bgrin

http://www.nsc.org/lrs/statinfo/odds.htm

It is a bit of an eye opener to see the actual numbers compared to the way the media makes things appear.

Here is one cities actual dangerous dog list with mug shots and all

http://www.ci.minneapolis.mn.us/animal-con...usDogs_List.asp

and if your curious about what breeds have been named in various legislation check out this list it might surprise you, is your breed there?

http://www.povn.com/rdows/banned%20breeds.html


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## Sonya (Oct 4, 2007)

> I think your wrong on some points...
> It is wild when it's not been in contact with humans!!!
> 
> A wolf-dog isn't as bad as a lion.....that going off the deep end....
> ...


A wild animal is a wild animal...and that's what scares people, even if an animal is a hybrid others still fear it simply because it is not the "norm"...I did not at all say that I agree with that, but I did say.. no I would not want a wolfdog as a neighbor...you asked for opinions and why people are "afraid" of a hybrid wolf and I gave my opinion and why I think others are afraid...no need to get your panties in a wad!


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## Jill (Oct 4, 2007)

Sonya, for whatever it may be worth, I'm with you on what you've said!


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

Ok, so the dog came from WHERE....or did they pop up, all dogs came from wolves..

runamuk, thanks that was informative!!!


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## Lisa (Oct 4, 2007)

Heart, I think it might be a good idea for you to take a deep breath and see the other POV's. You are getting defensive and that will not help anything.

You asked why people are scared of hybrid wolves and that is what we are discussing. I think it is very understandable for someone to fear a wolf in the wrong hands, and I can understand why Sonya mentions that she would not want a hybrid as a neighbour.

A wild animal is not necessarily only an animal who has not come into contact with humans. In this case it is referred to as a wild animal based on its lack of generations of human contact. While some people (movie industry people, etc.) have bears, cougars, etc. I would not want to have a neighbour who has one. I see the point that having a wolf (and a wolf hybrid) is similar to having a lion. If you do not think it is, you are not giving the wolf the respect it is due. It is a wild animal, wether it has been born in captivity or not. I have heard of many, many people who have a tiger raised from a kitten only to have their "baby" attack them when it is an adult. If you think of it this way, you might understand. Zoo Keepers often (most often) raise their animals from birth and get to know their charges, and yet you will not find them going into their cages to play with them.

Here in Calgary a baby elephant was born recently. She will not be played with, as are the rest of her herd. She, like her parents, are still wild animals even though her mother was born in captivity.


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

But the hybrid aren't 100% wolf, they have dog as a parent somewhere.

I don't see them as a wolf, they are a dog...type of dog....whatever...

I wouldn't want to come near a wild wolf. I would pee in my pants. LOL

but there is a big difference in a wolf and a hybrid...


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 4, 2007)

Lisa said:


> > Her only problem is the love of killing chickens (LOL).
> 
> 
> You may not like me much for this, but I must address it. This worries me. Any animal agressive dog is a danger. I do not think it is "LOL" for your wolf to be killing chickens. I have heard of way too many dogs who have gone from "oh they just like killing mice or chickens" to killing cats, other dogs, and sometimes even going after children. You should keep a good watch on your wolf, this is a danger waiting to happen.
> ...



Good Heavens, my LABRADOR has killed chickens. And he is the most laid-back dog I have ever seen... but they ran and he chased. He got scolded for it, definitely. And I didn't give him the chance to do it again.

Lucy


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> Lisa said:
> 
> 
> > > Her only problem is the love of killing chickens (LOL).
> ...



Thank you, I was going to put my mini collie (shelties sp?) has killed a chicken.


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## StellaLenoir (Oct 4, 2007)

On the killing chicken thing

There is killing without intent, and then there is stalking and hunting with a vicious intent.

My mix breed Vada killed our rabbit by running up on her and the rabbit freaked out. Not our dogs fault, not too scary, sad yes. And this dog is very protective.

My mix Drew, kills rats, snakes, lizards ect. Great!!! He is the biggest idiot dog ever.

I had a mix try to kill my other dog, it was like animal planet when lions attack. I had her by both back legs off the grownd. It was horrible. I could see the look she wanted to kill, and we tried a trainer and no luck, she wanted this dog to die and tried on a few occasions. She was sick of this dog annoying her, and one day I saw her give my baby that look. She was gone. IT was sooooo different than the other dogs when they have killed something, and she didnt even kill her.

As far as a pomeranian vs baby, anything just about can kill. Bugs can kill, microscopic organisims can kill, allergies can kill.

But come on, the chance of defending yourself or your baby, loved one from a pomeranian is great,you have a really good chance of coming away alive. Even defending yourself from a german shepherd, or other large breed is more likely.

the chance of defending yourself or your baby, loved one from a pit bull attack.......not so good, their jaws are designed to hold tight!

The media of course, plays on popular emotion, but the fear they incite about the banned breeds is what is driving so many people to get those breeds. "Im so tough look at my pit with the scary collar and blah blah blah...." Not all owners think that way, but I am sure you have seen the ones that do.

sorry for the spelling I suck!


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## heart k ranch (Oct 4, 2007)

I understand what your saying, and agree.......


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## runamuk (Oct 4, 2007)

StellaLenoir said:


> The media of course, plays on popular emotion, but the fear they incite about the banned breeds is what is driving so many people to get those breeds. "Im so tough look at my pit with the scary collar and blah blah blah...." Not all owners think that way, but I am sure you have seen the ones that do.


BINGO the medias role in hyping pitbulls is huge. The sad part is there are many more good than bad dogs. There are pitbulls, performing search and rescue, service dogs, drug sniffers, therapy dogs......but none of the good deeds recieve any attention. If all the media ever showed was pitbulls and bullies in general doing good deeds and ignored the bad seeds they would change the image and therefore the popularity with the bad crowd. The people who want "bad" dogs will always have them and the breed won't matter.

As for the dogs killing chickens, rabbits, etc......many breeds are bred to hunt it is in their nature to hunt and it is not a sign that they will attack humans or otherwise. Herding dogs must be managed around stock from the beginning or they can become some of the worst stock chasers around, it is an intense prey drive hard wired into their brains that make them good at herding. Bird dogs need to be birdy to hunt well and they sure aren't expected to know the difference between a chicken and a grouse. Management and proper breed selection go a long way towards preventing problem dogs.

As for people being fearful of wolf hybrids I can understand it. I think there are people who are perfectly capable of managing wolf hybrids and wolves. If you are going to own these breeds it is up to the owner to make sure the dogs don't make others uncomfortable. I have always had chows and you have no idea how scared of this breed some people are. I could walk down the street with a lion on a leash and get less reaction from some people   I take the time to socialize my dogs, and teach them good manners and in turn educate people about the proper way to approach and interact with the breed.

If your going to have a misunderstood breed you will have to work much harder to convince people it is safe.


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## SunQuest (Oct 4, 2007)

runamuk said:


> If your going to have a misunderstood breed you will have to work much harder to convince people it is safe.


:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:

Rori, You are right on with everything you say!  You must know the breed and the traits. And you therefore are cautious to pay extra attention to discouraging bad behavior. Bravo to you as you are so correct! BSL is bad, very very bad IMO. I have knowledge of 2 black labs that my neighbors had that killed chickens and some lambs down the road from me. They were not called "dangerous" even though they would growl, raise their hackles, and bare teeth when I was in my own yard. Now my dogs have NEVER killed cats, chickens, sheep, yet they are called dangerous breeds being that one is a pit-bull and the other a Siberian husky. Of course, like you said, I work very very hard at being a responsible pet owner. I never let my dogs play unattended, and they are in a 6 foot tall kennel with a roof when I am not at home and that kennel is in a chain linked fenced area. Even with my fences, I still do not leave them outside alone. And I work with them to ensure that they are socialized and that I do everything I can to train them to be good canine citizens. Yep, people need to take responsibility and see to it that their dogs are not terrors. Laughs, my grandmother had a sheltie that I absolutely hated. I don't normally hate dogs, but this dog tried to bite me once, and did try to regularly to get at the minis. And it was not the normal heal nipping for herding type of event. It was pure attack type mode. Urgg.... It was so difficult to deal with her as my grandmother wouldn't train her, and my grandmother wouldn't let us train her and follow what we were doing. She thought it was funny that her dog "played" with the horses. Anyway, you are right. It is the owners that are responsible for ensuring safety from their dogs.

Heart K Ranch,

I have own Siberian Huskies for well over 25 years. I will be the first to tell you that they are a WONDERFUL dog. *BUT* they do have tendencies to hunt. Specifically, they chase, and even stalk, anything smaller than them. This is natural as the Siberian Husky is one of the closest (if not THE closest) dog descendant to wolves. As little as 100 years ago these dogs were left to run wild in the summer in Siberia and only those that survived were used as potential breeding dogs and sledding dogs in the winter as they were hardier. But they have been being domesticated for far longer than that. Still, due to the wild instincts being encouraged to remain, they have a much higher pray instinct and they do many wolfish things like howl, stalk prey, roam, are territorial, ect that most breeds of dogs will not do. They are very independent thinkers, and this alone makes them much harder to train. But, when it comes to people, ordinarily, they make really bad watch dogs. They would rather lead the robber to the fine china than stand guard.

With that said, I do NOT see how a wolf hybrid is less dangerous than my Siberian huskies. (I highly suspect that many people confuse the Siberian with wolves. I think this is part of the bad reputation that the Siberians have gotten lately.) I have studied wolves to some extent as I am fascinated by them (hence why I own Siberians) and have talked with fish and game officers about them. I LOVE wolves, but in the wild is where they should be IMO. Their size alone (twice the size of a Siberian) is dangerous if these dogs are not respected and ALWAYS treated as wild animals. And no matter how you look at it, any dog or hybrid will receive instincts for survival from BOTH parents.

Further, it is known statistically that a wild healthy wolf will not attack humans as they are normally too scared of humans, unless that wolf feels threatened by humans. Again, we are talking a healthy wolf. *BUT* in recent years, the "wolf" attacks have almost always been from hybrids or "domesticated wolves". The reason is that these dogs still have the strong prey instinct and now they have lost the fear of humans that the truelly wild wolves have. Instead of being hundreds of generations away from their wild cousins, a wolf hybrid is only 1 generation removed if that.

So yes, they are a more dangerous type of dog. Not saying that yours are bad, or that others shouldn't be able to own them. Just saying that most regular people would be nuts if they didn't feel threatened by wolf hybrids just because their size alone.

And as a long time dog owner, I treat *ALL* dogs as if they are a loaded gun. You never know when any one of the dogs will just "snap" and then start attacking. I have seen some really small nasty dogs, and some of the most gentle docile big dogs and vise versa. ANY animal can be unpredictable if given the right set of circumstances, but some are easier to push their instincts to the edge than others.


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## Lisa (Oct 4, 2007)

Very well said, SunQuest. :aktion033:


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## rockin r (Oct 4, 2007)

rockin r said:


> runamuk said:
> 
> 
> > heart k ranch said:
> ...


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## Reijel's Mom (Oct 4, 2007)

Very good edited point, Theresa!! Let's face it - if pits NEVER did anything "wrong" or if hybrids never did anything "wrong", they wouldn't have the reputation they do. What I'm trying to say is, if EVERYone that owned a hybrid (or any dog for that matter!) was as dilligent as you - there wouldn't be an issue.

There are just way too many idiots attracted to some of the more dangerous breeds.


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## TriggynBluenDaisy Too (Oct 5, 2007)

Well not all wolf hybrids are the sweet benign creatures people make them out to be and nurture has little impact with some of them. Back in the ealy 70's I had two wolf hybrids I got as pups. They were getting quite popular at the time and many people had them. Sort of yesterday's designer dog. Problem we had was that even though they were both from different places and both were very good with our family but were absolutely the most dangerous dogs I've ever dealt with concerning strangers. Both were extremely timid when out of their element yet my other non hybrid dogs were very socialable and I never had to worry. Too much wild in them to be trustworthy and too domestic to live a wild life. After my nephew was bitten and had I not been there to prevent it would have been mauled I was forced to put them down due to their temperments were too unpredictable to rehome and too much of a liabilty to keep. It's circumstances like this that are the reason why people who rehab them are not willing to promote them as pets.


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## Sun Runner Stables (Oct 5, 2007)

Was also going to mention to Jill that it's Not the chow, I've had two golden chow crosses ( I have one as does my boyfriend) and they are Amazing with our animals! Young puppies, bunnies, goats, kittens, even birds, Bear is perfect with them!


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## mininik (Oct 5, 2007)

Saying "it's not the Chow" is great, but in actuality it could very well be the Chow, or the Lab, the mix of the two or whatever else Jill's dog has in it, past experiences, lack of proper early socialization and training, etc. Just because there are thousands of wonderful, loving whatevers out there doesn't mean that some aren't dominant, submissive, shy, dog aggressive, people aggressive, not meant to be hunting buddies, not good for therapy work, etc. for whatever reason and the same can be said for ANY breed, mix or hybrid dog.


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## runamuk (Oct 5, 2007)

mininik said:


> Saying "it's not the Chow" is great, but in actuality it could very well be the Chow, or the Lab, the mix of the two or whatever else Jill's dog has in it, past experiences, lack of proper early socialization and training, etc. Just because there are thousands of wonderful, loving whatevers out there doesn't mean that some aren't dominant, submissive, shy, dog aggressive, people aggressive, not meant to be hunting buddies, not good for therapy work, etc. for whatever reason and the same can be said for ANY breed, mix or hybrid dog.


You need to understand Jill said she will never own another CHOW or mix there of again, and I am fine with that I do understand and feel the same about poodles




:

What spotted pony and myself were expressing is that it isn't a common chow trait. And as a good chow breed ambassador it is my duty to try and educate the realities of the breed and dispell the reputation created by a few off individuals.

I am sure this will be taken completely wrong by some but here goes...............situations like this are exactly why I will never own mixed breeds period. I prefer purebreds because I then have an idea of what is expected with mixes it is too all over the place. This is based on my experience with mixed breeds (your mileage may vary).



:


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## mininik (Oct 5, 2007)

I understand, but my point is that saying it's NOT the Chow and saying it's NOT a common Chow trait are two very different things. I have next to me two very awesome Toy Poodles, but thanks to my experiences working with dogs on a daily basis, I know that not all Toy Poodles (or dogs of other breeds and mixes) are created equal, nor are they the best dog for every owner.


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## HGFarm (Oct 5, 2007)

I have to say that I have seen people buy pups from ads in the paper that were advertised as wolf hybrids but were nothing more than shepard mutts... but it got the puppies sold to unsuspecting buyers.

The lady that owned the ones that were used in the movie Dances With Wolves lives here in the valley and I was able to see a couple that she had up close. They are NOT people friendly and she does NOT recommend them for folks that are not savvy with that type of personality and family heirarchy they have.

About 30 years ago a friend had one- definetely looked like one, not a shepard- and he was NOT people friendly either. Then he started killing the neighbors calves. They had to fork over a car and some other loot to pay for the losses.

Their instinct on this is very strong- probably more so than domestic dogs, which will pack up anyhow. They had their own horses and he had been around livestock since he was a pup. He was not a barker, he lurked and was dangerous if he THOUGHT he was cornered- and, he was HUGE. Very handsome but not something that I would have around the place. Wild animals do not make good pets.


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## heart k ranch (Oct 5, 2007)

HGFarm said:


> I have to say that I have seen people buy pups from ads in the paper that were advertised as wolf hybrids but were nothing more than shepard mutts... but it got the puppies sold to unsuspecting buyers.
> 
> The lady that owned the ones that were used in the movie Dances With Wolves lives here in the valley and I was able to see a couple that she had up close. They are NOT people friendly and she does NOT recommend them for folks that are not savvy with that type of personality and family heirarchy they have.
> 
> ...



I coudl see that, mine is easy 150 pounds, but she says out, ( only with the shock collar that goes off when she goes pass her boundaires(sp).

People are scared of her, but she is a very good "dog".....

she over 85% timber wolf and the rest is akita....I wouldn't trust her alone with anyone, but me...

I guess with some people they could handle them, then other wouldn't....

I think since I've been around them I know the body language, the looks, and I also know that you really can't punish them because you hit they usually come back with a bite.

Belle stands up on my dads shoulders he barely comes to her neck...He's 6'2. I would see that as scary on the outside.....


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## Sun Runner Stables (Oct 5, 2007)

: Pardon. I don't find it to be an accurate depiction of a typical chow's behavior pattern to hunt and chase after livestock. Better? :bgrin

And yes, thanks for the talk,... I am aware Many breeds can do Many things, and Jill has her own experiences to base her judgment on in this one.

I'm touchy about it because when I adopted my Bear dog from the pound as a 8 week old puppy, (And he Then looked Full chow) several people tried to tell me that he was going to grow up to be a horrible Mean dog. (And for the record, this shelter is in an area that is crime and poverty heavy.)

Had I accepted their words, I wouldn't have the best dog in the world at me feet right now, it tends to make me an advocate as well.

He's the most loyal, gentle, laid back and well mannered dog you will ever meet, and I'm really lucky to ave him.

My boyfriend dog Star is the Exact same way, down to their facial expressions, it's almost creepy as both dogs are Years apart, and had never crossed paths before.


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## sdmini (Oct 6, 2007)

We raised several of these growing up.






It's hard not to think of these faces when people talk about cougars as cold killers but it would do them no justice to portray them as house cats either. It's the same way with what ever breed of dog you enjoy if you can not talk about their "un" desirable traits you have no business owning them. Blind devotion is not good, period.

I love, love, love my blue heeler. He has been a part of my family for going on 12 years now and he is still as happy to see me in the morning as he was as a pup. My kids have done things to him I would have bit them for but he happily tolerates his family, but he would not from yours. That's his breeds nature, that's his breeds downfall.

Part of the problem is what wolves are crossed with, huskies are not a good cross but because they retain so much of wolf like appearance it is what they are used with most. An Australian Sheppard wouldn't be bad but rarely do I see those crosses but have regrettable seen a few German Sheppard crosses.

We even owned a select few hybrids for a while growing up. Willie E Coyote (yes I know bad name for a wolf cross) was a doll and went to George Tote, who was the "go to" man for animals in Hollywood at that time. The others....well we'll just talk about Willie E.

I'm not saying no one should own a hybrid but I will say that many people who want them are the last people that should have them, same for goes for pits, rots and mastiffs.

In case your wondering we have been out of the cougars for a long time now (note lovely floral print chair for reference) and while I loved the childhood I had there is maybe one in a million people I would say that getting a big cat was a good idea, maybe even more.

Almost all kittens spent time in the house and they were a blast.











Maybeline and her best bud, Bird Dog.






Maybeline was older before she found a home. When we got home from school we use to take her out for walks like a toy poodle.



:


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## Lisa (Oct 6, 2007)

sdmini- WOW! That must have been a unique childhood. Amazing! One one hand I would "love" to own a cougar, but I would be straight outta my mind to think about getting any big cat. I can't even tell my 6lb cat what to do without her looking at me like I'm nuts haha.



: Beautiful kittens you've got in those pics. I love the one with the dog, look at those paws! :new_shocked:


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## Leeana (Oct 6, 2007)

Pretty dogs, but i will stick to my little shih tzu ..hurts less when they bite lol. Im not a fan of big dogs so i dont see myself getting a hybrid.


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2007)

With my mix dog, Maggie, I say it's the chow from what others have told me and the fact that I raised her (properly, imo). However, she was a rescue from a shelter. We "think" she is Lab x Chow. Mabye she is Golden x Akita? The reality is she's probably something x something with a dash of something else :bgrin I just think that in the future for selecting breeds, I will go for ones that have a better recognized reputation as livestock friendly (like our Collie) and of course, I'm always gonna have some little mop dog shih-tzu's.


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## Minimor (Oct 6, 2007)

> You asked why people are scared of hybrid wolves and that is what we are discussing. I think it is very understandable for someone to fear a wolf in the wrong hands, and I can understand why Sonya mentions that she would not want a hybrid as a neighbour.


It's for sure I wouldn't be happy if any of my neighbors got a wolf hybrid. They're lovely animals, but I don't believe that most people should have one of them. Heck, my neighbors cannot even control their Lab; another had a Siberian Husky and never could figure out why they couldn't teach their dog to stay home. There was a time when I'd have liked to have a wolf hybrid, but living in this area there's just no way I would have one. Too many close neighbors, all of which would be terribly afraid of such a "dog". Plus, now it would not be a dog I'd ever trust completely around the cats and little horses, and therefore not what I need in a dog.



> but there is a big difference in a wolf and a hybrid...


Yes there is, some--and that difference is in the fact that the hybrid has that dog cross, and has lost (or never had) a wolf's natural fear of humans. That makes a big difference. And I think there are too many owners that convince themselves that their dog is completely sweet & loving and would never hurt anyone, and they fail to be realistic about what the dog is really capable of. They make excuses for bad behaviour, right up to making excuses for the dog killing other creatures. "He killed the chicken because the chicken ran away". Think about it--what happens if the dog encounters a small child, and that small child runs away from the dog??? I'm not saying the dog will harm the child, but if it's inclined to chase & kill small creatures that run away, the possibility is there and it's irresponsible to ignore that and insist the dog would never do such a thing.
It's not realistic to say "my Chow was harmless and therefore all Chows are harmless". (Insert any breed in place of Chow!) Even if it's not typical of a breed, there can always be exceptions to every rule.


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## gimp (Oct 6, 2007)

heart k ranch said:


> she over 85% timber wolf and the rest is akita....I wouldn't trust her alone with anyone, but me...


It sounds to me like you are answering your own question at the beginning of the thread!  God forbid something were to happen to you and you couldn't get home, who would you send to care for the "dog?" Or even worse, what if, in the case of a woman in this area, you wrecked and weren't found for 8 days? :new_shocked: Sounds like a hungry hybrid, for sure! I am glad that my neighbor's have a garden variety domestic canine. :aktion033:



:


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## SunQuest (Oct 6, 2007)

Leeana said:


> Pretty dogs, but i will stick to my little shih tzu ..hurts less when they bite lol. Im not a fan of big dogs so i dont see myself getting a hybrid.


Leeana,

I know you were joking about your little dog's bite hurting less, but I have to say that I don't find that very funny as too many people say the same thing. I am not trying to be mean here, but many people let their little dogs do things that they would never ever let a big dog do because they see their little dogs as cute. One of those things is bite. They think the little dog is cute when they are nipping and being aggressive. It is no different than saying that miniture horses hurt less when they kick. They still can cause a lot of damage.

I, on the other hand, beleive that NO dog should ever be allowed to bite. This should be stopped the very first time they try as a very young puppy before they ever get to be hard core into biting.

Just a couple of weeks ago I had one such encounter with an irresponsible owner and her little toy poodle and that dog was just barking and growling and baring it's teeth and was 6 foot away from her. I watched her as she wandered my way and every dog she encountered got the same treatment from that little mutt. She let that little 5 to 10 pound thing get within a foot or so of my 80 pound husky and then stood there smiling at how cute her dog was! Now she had walked up to me, and my dog had enough and decided to start doing what huskies do and that is pull. I litterally had one hand holding my dog's collar and the other hand on my dog's harness and after putting every ounce of my weight (250 pounds on this 6 foot 3 inch body of mine) to stop him from having dinner, I finally told her rudely to back off of my dog and that my dog would LITTERALLY eat her dog in one bite! Now mind you, she came up to my dog. I was standing off by myself and my dog was in a "heal" position at my side (I like it that way. Big dog should be on very short leash at my side at all times.) And funny, but my dog was not an issue with the other dogs there, including the small ones. I can only imagine how that little dog was at home!

So yes, the little dog's bite hurts worse than my big dogs because my big dogs are not allowed to ever bite. This started from the time I got my dogs as young puppies.

But.... with that said, any dog can suddenly snap and harm someone. It is a dog's nature to do so. They are preditors and they have those canine teeth for a reason. And yes, a big dog that is attacking will do more damage than a little dog much quicker.

And a hybrid is even more likely to be aggressive towards those things and beings that are not in it's pack.


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## runamuk (Oct 6, 2007)

Minimor said:


> [
> 
> It's not realistic to say "my Chow was harmless and therefore all Chows are harmless". (Insert any breed in place of Chow!) Even if it's not typical of a breed, there can always be exceptions to every rule.


I did not say that. I said that is not a normal trait of the breed AND that in my years of working with the breed I had not experienced this behavior.

I know there can be exceptions to the rule in all species of animal. This is why I think it is very important for everyone to do research into a breed before buying it. And that research should include what the breed was/is used for. It makes no sense to get an aussie or border collie to be an apt dog if you aren't going to also make sure it can have a job, ie herding trials, agility, flyball, disc dog, hiking, biking, jogging. And you certainly wouldn't get an english bulldog to be a jogging partner :bgrin .

As for hybrids my grandparents had two dogs when I was little one was wolf/collie and the other was her son 75% collie/25% wolf...we rode him like a horse  he was a very friendly happy dog, his dam was old by the time we came along and we knew to leave her alone as she was cranky. Most of the "hybrids" I have met since were actually 100% wolf but due to legal issues were called hybrids.

Like sdmini I grew up with a bit different pets than the average family, there was the ocelot, and the monkey for starters. Somewhere there are pictures of my mother and her brothers with Clarence the cross eyed lion. My preference for more difficult (by some definitions) breeds/species is in part due to what I was raised with.

As for negative traits of chows....they are very independent and aloof this equals extremely hard to train. They also are naturally suspicious of strangers combine this with deep set eyes and you have a dog that can be startled easily if approached from the side or behind. They need lots of socializing both at home and away....lots and lots of people coming and going while young works wonders for at home. Taking them everywhere and having them meet people and be petted away from home. Like akitas(and a few other breeds) they can be dog aggressive I've had one that was. Raising them with lots of other dogs can help and going to classes or showing also help. If you are not prepared for this possibility I wouldn't reccomend the breed especially in a multiple dog household, musical doggies can get old.

I see so many people who just go get a dog without any research and then when the dog doesn't live up to the owners expectations, they get rid of it. A bit of research could have prevented that in the first place. There are several hundred breeds out there and a few simple questions can narrow down which breeds will work.

Everyone should have a plan for the "what if" situation, make sure you have someone who will deal with your critters.



:


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## Sonya (Oct 6, 2007)

> QUOTE(heart k ranch @ Oct 5 2007, 04:51 PM)
> 
> she over 85% timber wolf and the rest is akita....I wouldn't trust her alone with anyone, but me...
> 
> It sounds to me like you are answering your own question at the beginning of the thread!


Exactly what I was going to say...you just answered your own question heart k. with that statement.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 6, 2007)

A Wolf is a wild animal.

A Dog is not.

Why on earth would you wish to mix the two????

Crossing a Wolf with a Dog - crazy.

Sorry.

And, luckily, illegal over here and in most parts of Europe.

(BTW they do still have Wolves in Europe!!)

I think Wolves are beautiful, much maligned animals and I have the greatest of respect for them, I have no wish to demean them by trying to make them into house pets- I do believe that happened a few thousand years ago and the result was the Dog.

Best to leave it there, I think.


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## palominogirl (Oct 19, 2007)

SunQuest said:


> Leeana said:
> 
> 
> > Pretty dogs, but i will stick to my little shih tzu ..hurts less when they bite lol. Im not a fan of big dogs so i dont see myself getting a hybrid.
> ...



I completely agree with you no dog should be allowed to bite. i have a dog named sadie who we got as a puppy. when she did her first play bite we didnt think nothing of it because she was a puppy and we thought she would grow out of it. well as she got older them little play bites came into big hard painful play bites. so we started correcting her to this day i wont say she wont bite anymore but she is alot better bu yeah no dog should be allowed to bite


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