# Tongue over the bit



## Marsha Cassada (Jul 16, 2012)

It's been a while since I had a horse that gets the tongue over the bit and I can't remember all the tips that were given to cure that.

I think frequent half halts were one.

Any other ideas?

She is using the myler comfort snaffle. She was doing it with the french link, and I thought the myler would help, but she still does it.

Does it indicate a horse that is behind the bit?

Thanks for any help!


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## Al B (Jul 16, 2012)

I have one that does it consistently. I went to a high port bit. I think its a Myler EPB-43HP


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## Sandee (Jul 16, 2012)

I used a low port to help mine. His big problem was just not liking pressure on his tongue - AT ALL. Now that he's been driven more and more he uses a regular snaffle with no problem.

I'm assuming that you've checked to make sure the bit it "up in his mouth" and that he's not holdingit between his teeth until you take the reins. I had to take my headstall up so that we go those 2 little wrinkles at the mouth.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 16, 2012)

She's been wearing a bit for a couple of months and really hasn't become totally comfortable with it yet. She seemed better with the myler. I tried raising the headstall, but that seemed too extreme. She starts out with it fine in her mouth, then after 15 minutes or so I see her acting wierd, and there is the bit under her tongue. Sometimes I have to loosen the headstall, and other times she fixes it herself.

It doesn't happen every time. If we just go along quietly, as on a long walk ground driving with her pasture mate with her, she is fine. It is when she gets a little agitated that it happens.

She has had her teeth done recently.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 16, 2012)

Here is just what you need...I believe Camptown makes them, but I couldn't find them in the list of products...I would give Marjean a call.

http://www.horse-advice.com/equi-therapy/saddlery/australian-noseband.shtml


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## Sandee (Jul 16, 2012)

Everyone in the show arena uses a caveson (noseband) but it is not supposed to be for holding the mouth shut on the bit. Many will tell you that's what it is for however that's the difference between a breed show driver and a carriage driver. The caveson was originally attached to the headstall to help hold the blinders (blinkers) in close to the eyes so the horse could not see (thru the gap) behind them.

The horse just needs miles and practice to get him to "pick up and carry it". Get a bit that he's comfortable with and make sure it sits UP in his mouth.


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## disneyhorse (Jul 17, 2012)

Sandee... If the only purpose of the cavesson is to hold the blinders tight, then why do English bridles have them for riding?


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## Sandee (Jul 17, 2012)

This is from just 2 sites on the internet.

" After the invention of the bit, the noseband was, in some cultures, demoted to a halter worn beneath the bridle that allowed the rider to remove the bit from the horse's mouth after work and leave a restraining halter on underneath, or to tie the horse by this halter, instead of by the bit, which could result in damage to the horse's mouth if it panicked. However, its ability to hold a horse's mouth shut over the bit was also recognized, as was its usefulness for attaching equipment such as a martingale, and so in some traditions it was sometimes left as a working part of a bridle."

and another:

"*Older English bridles did not come with the type of things they have now -- many had a simple noseband that fitted through slots to keep the cheekpieces from moving around a lot when a snaffle bit was used. If your cavesson is so tight that you can't get two fingers sideways between it and the horse's jaw, it is too tight. "*

I can only assume that the noseband was also used with the simple O ring snaffle to keep the bit from sliding into the horse's mouth when they were being trained.


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## Minimor (Jul 17, 2012)

An ordinary cavesson absolutely should NOT be used to keep the hprse's mouth shut! A dropped noseband is meant for that purpose, a cavesson is not.

If a cavesson is done up tight enough to keep the mouth closed ( and it fits too high to be very effective anyway) it serves to grind the horse's inner cheek into his molars. A cavesson is not meant to be adjusted tightly--it disgusts me that so many people don't know or don't care that misusing a cavesson this way causes pain to their horses.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 17, 2012)

Yes, I knew the cavesson was not to keep the mouth shut. I don't use a cavesson. It is just one extra thing. I think it looks nice, but I never really saw the point.

I don't want a flashband, either, though I am not against a device used for training. An overcheck on my greedy Dapper Dan just a few times cured him of grass snatching.

I was thinking there are some training techniques, such as the half halt, that I need to concentrate on. Partly it is building up her confidence and trust and keeping her brain busy.

I called about the noseband; Camptown calls it a Bit Lifter. I am going to see whether one is availble in her size. It might be a useful training tool for her.

If it isn't, it will just add to the accumulation of tack in my barn!


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## Sue_C. (Jul 17, 2012)

I have used just a "Y" of twine, but the Cheeker/lifter is a great idea. I am sure they can make one for a mini...afterall, they have mini bridles they can use as guides.

According to our Equine Canada rulebook, it is required that one use a cavesson. the reason for one, as I have always been told, is to help keep the cheek pieces tight against the face, so the horse cannot see between the gap that can be left without a properly fitted cavesson. and no...it is never to be used to shut the mouth.


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## Minimor (Jul 17, 2012)

I use a homemade 'bit lifter' if I have a horse that keeps putting his tongue over the bit. I just tie a shoelace over the nose from bit ring to bit ring then tie it up to the center of the crown. This lifts the bit off the tongue a little bit--making it impossible for the horse to put his tongue over; this also takes some pressure off the horse's tongue and I do believe that some horses have this habit because they do not like tongue pressure from the bit. In each case (I have had two problem horses) my horses got over the habit once they had more work and got accustomed to going on the bit.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 17, 2012)

Minimor said:


> I use a homemade 'bit lifter' if I have a horse that keeps putting his tongue over the bit. I just tie a shoelace over the nose from bit ring to bit ring then tie it up to the center of the crown. This lifts the bit off the tongue a little bit--making it impossible for the horse to put his tongue over; this also takes some pressure off the horse's tongue and I do believe that some horses have this habit because they do not like tongue pressure from the bit. In each case (I have had two problem horses) my horses got over the habit once they had more work and got accustomed to going on the bit.


I will try that if I can't work something out with Camptown. I do think it is just a question of her becoming used to things. Once I get it adjusted on her, I can just leave it on. It might also help if Camptown needs some measurements. Thanks for the tip.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 17, 2012)

Sorry...edited to remove, but it won't just go away. :-(


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## JMS Miniatures (Jul 17, 2012)

Have you just let her stand tied or loose in a stall with the bridle on so she just gets used to the bit in the mouth? I also wouldn't worry so much if your driving and she gets her tongue over the bit. Just leave her be and she will correct her self, unless this becomes a continues issue but it sounds like to me she just needs to learn how to hold the bit in her mouth.

I hate the cavesson is used on some show bridles, it really has no use. The best bridle I've had was from my comfy fit harness.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 18, 2012)

This was posted on a driving list that I belong to, just this morning...makes one think...

QUOTE: The mouth is where horses manifest their anxiety and often express the fact

they are experiencing pain. The actual physical source can be anywhere. A

secondary problem, for instance: TMJ issues, can develop from working thru

the discomfort, the source of which may be most anywhere: hocks, stifles,

ribs, back, internal organs, ulcers, reproductive organs.....It can be

quite a puzzle to unravel and is often done by going down the list and

eliminating the easy ones first.

To be fair to the horse, be very careful of assuming he will 'just work

thru it'. Jeff Morse  UNQUOTE:


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 18, 2012)

I certainly agree with that post from Jeff Morse.

I am trying to keep track of her monthly cycle times, as she is pretty subtle, but I do see extra sensitivity in the girth area then. She went to the Chiro last week, and did have tmj issues, plus a few other things. I think, for her, it is mostly understanding what I want, and accepting that she must do it. She was totally unhandled for her 4 years of life and I've only had her about 4 months, so she's had lots of input lately!

I just know there are some ways to work through this. I think a tongue over the bit has the potential to be a bad thing and I don't want to let it go unresolved.

As an aside, I found the chain off the gate this morning; she has figured out how to lift it out of the groove. I'll have to take some extra gate pains now.


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## Sandee (Jul 18, 2012)

When my guy was putting his tongue over the bit, he would continue that way for a while then start to misbehave since the bit was then resting on his gums/jaw. He did this in a class where I couldn't stop once and was dripping a bloody foam by the end of the class.


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## disneyhorse (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't personally like tight cavessons by the way!

In the majority of cases where dental is not an issue, I find that switching to what bit the horse finds comfortable and then working from ground zero in training (first lunging with the bridle on and nothing attached to the bit, and then ground driving, and then bitting up if that's something you do, and then hooking) will resolve the problem most effectively.

My gelding is very picky about his bit. A Mullen mouth or single joint snaffle causes rooting, head tossing, and tongue issues but he's almost instantly happy in a French link or myler comfort snaffle.

It takes some experimentation and patience to resolve these issues but you'll be better off in the long run rather than resorting to a cranked down cavesson or a tongue tie.


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## Little Bits (Jul 19, 2012)

I think you are talking about 2 different things. A nose band attaches from one side of the bridle to the other over the nose, keeping the blinders in place. The cavesson is for keeping the mouth shut so they can't get the tongue over the bit. the bridle should always have 2 wrinkles in the mouth. If it is to loose the bit can pull through the mouth.

You did not indicate if you have a head check attached to the bit. I find that is what cause the bit to pinch the top of horses mouth. When a horse gets there head down into the bit the check pulls the joint up into the roof of the mouth causing discomfort.

Also have you checked her teeth?


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## Minimor (Jul 19, 2012)

> The cavesson is for keeping the mouth shut so they can't get the tongue over the bit.


This is SO wrong!!!


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 21, 2012)

Okay, I used some twine as a "bit lifter" today. I tied it on the myler where the headstall connects. When I tied it to the bit, she didn't like that twine next to her mouth. I crossed it over on her forehead and tied it to the headstall at the poll. It was obvious that she felt a difference. We did a little ground driving. I am thinking it helped a little to lift the bit off her tongue. She seemed more relaxed.

A real bit lifter with leather "rowel" for the bit might be more comfortable than the twine. (I haven't had any return call/email from Camptown. Maybe they don't have one for minatures...) We will try a longer ground driving session next and see if it works. It is so dang hot here! Hard to get motivated.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 21, 2012)

We did a two mile long line walk this morning. I used the twine. It isn't pretty but it seemed to work. She played with the bit quite a bit but never got her tongue over it, so I think the technique is working for sure. I even asked her to do some things that usually cause the problem and it worked fine. When we got back, I brought the sulky shafts up behind her. It took some maneuvering with whip cues; she didn't want to do it, but finally she got positioned where I could bring the shafts up. I bumped her a little with the shafts, on purpose, and she did just fine. Didn't attach them, just had a simple shaft lesson. I think we are definitely making progress. She is so proud of herself when she does a good job!

I am going to share the bit-lifter tip with another person I know who's having this problem with a riding horse.

The big horse catalogs have several pages of bridles with devices that can't be for anything but keeping a horse's mouth shut. It must be a big problem...


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 20, 2012)

I took Tipsey out for the second time in the cart today. We went about 2 miles. My sister drove Dapper Dan also, so Tipsey would be more content. Tipsey responded well to gait changes, pulling up inclines and going down them very well. We had some rough terrain with the cart bumping behind her, and some traffic. O my! her trot is fantastic! I'll be interested to get her mph.

Still have the bit lifter on, but it think it has served it's purpose and will no longer be needed. She is carrying the bit well now and seems to like her new job.

Anyone who is having trouble with this issue should try the idea. (A boot lace works much better than the twine!)


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## shalakominiatureshowhorses (Aug 22, 2012)

JMS Miniatures said:


> I hate the cavesson is used on some show bridles, it really has no use. The best bridle I've had was from my comfy fit harness.


I never thought it had a use either, i didnt even know what it was before i actually used it. But I didnt buy the cavesson when i bought my first harness, because i didnt think Bentley needed it. I WAS WRONG! He went crazy, he wasnt used to NOT having a cavesson. I just started driving and he started up again after 2 yrs of doing nothing but jumping with me. Anyway, all i know is for Bentley- cavesson=controled/no cavesson=CRAZY B! I dont know, i dont like the cavesson, but it doesnt do any harm to him


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## Marsha Cassada (Sep 25, 2012)

The bit-lifter thing stopped working; maybe I didn't have it attached properly. Anyway, my dressage DIL helped me devise a makedo flash band using the boot string. We put the caveson on pretty snugly and wrapped the boot string around the noseband, under the lip in front of the bit. She also raised the headstall one hole; I was worried about having it too short but she said I needed the bit up in her mouth more to enhance bit contact.

I've had the flashband makedo on her 4 times now while ground driving and she has not been successful at getting her tongue over the bit. She has not given up trying, though!

It looks funny, but we are not concerned about a beauty contest at this point.

I am determined to break this bad behavior before it becomes a habit. She is a good, smart girl and does not need this baggage.

www.cassphoto.com/flashband.jpg


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## TMR (Sep 25, 2012)

I use a flash noseband on my 4 yr old shetland cross and it works very well. When he gets upset he starts really chomping on the bit and gets his tongue over it. So my trainer advised putting him in a flash noseband and it works perfect. I do not crank it up,just tight enough so he can't open his mouth to chomp the bit. You can order the flash noseband seperately from Comfy fit harness. It just slides into your cavesson hangers and consists of the cavesson and the flash. Driving essentials also sells the flash seperately that slides onto your cavesson.

Funny side note, his showing of crabbyness has transferred to his tail. Now when I have him do something he doesn't like or doesn't understand, he swishes his tail around since he can't chomp the bit. I guess I have to pick my evil. The tail thing is quite entertaining and I definitely know what he is thinking. LOL


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