# Ah, the tandem work begins *updated with pix*



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 12, 2010)

For our trip to the beach I rigged up a way to pony Turbo (my two year old stallion) off the back of my easy entry cart and took him along. I fully understood how risky this little venture was and made sure we practiced at home with me being the "pony horse" so I'd know exactly what the horse between the shafts would be experiencing with Turbo back there shoving on his little PVC framework or trying to graze or otherwise pull us around by the leadrope. Mom had a lead on him as well and as I pulled the cart around she showed him what was expected and then slowly stood further and further off until she unclipped the leadline entirely and we did a full dry run. It really wasn't bad! I weigh considerably less than he does and was able to easily stop him by braking the cart itself and he was unable to drag it sideways even unloaded to snatch grass so I felt relatively confident in trying it for real.

Now, again, in BIG PRINT: *THIS IS NOT A SAFE ACTIVITY TO TRY!!* There are many, many ways this could go horribly wrong, especially with a stallion as the ponied horse, and I'm well aware of that. I would NEVER try this in a situation where I'd have to stop in company of other horses as what if the stud decided to start acting up? I'd have zero control and an excited stallion is not going to hesitate to yank the cart around and possibly even start dragging it off backwards, hapless horse between the shafts and all. It's also dangerous for the ponied horse as what if the driving horse took off?? He could be dragged to death or severely injured by the cart. I did my best to eliminate that type of danger with a quick release arrangement but it's still a terrible risk for all three of us, even with the framework to keep him from being able to come up beside the cart, rear over the back or bite me. Still, after careful consideration of the risks I decided it was worth trying given the two individual horses involved and our lack of exercise facilities at home.

Okay, with the disclaimer finished....

So we tried this arrangment out at the beach and it worked remarkably well. Turbo was fascinated and eager to come along and the framework kept him from coming too far forward so Kody and I were able to pretty much forget he was back there and simply perform as normal with no drag or delay from behind. Turbo got a feel for how the voice commands he's been learning at liberty work in the real world (and Kody's prompt obedience ensured Turbo's




) and he got used to the sights and sounds of driving including being passed by other horses. After some careful consideration I'd put Kody in an open bridle for this experiment as he is more dependable in strange situations if he understands what's being done or going on around him and I felt this way he would be inclined to lean on the breeching and hold Turbo back instead of becoming upset by the shafts making strange gyrations or any odd noises he might hear behind him. He proved me right, at first cocking an ear and becoming a little concerned when Turbo was trotting and cantering behind him but he quickly figured out that the spacing never changed and relaxed. He took quite a bit of glee in forcing Turbo to back up when he'd start pushing on the cart during breaks!



Tee-ko got excited during the runs and wanted to charge up on Kody and start nipping him as they do in play but the framework held him back and away from the wheels and all was well.

I haven't gotten to use the arrangement since then as I left immediately after that trip for the UK and was gone until the end of August. I finally got the boys out last night and hitched them up again and watched with some amusement as Turbo pushed the cart down the street via his framework and lead line, leaving Kody no work at all to do up front! Kody seemed to quite enjoy that little vacation and simply sat on his breeching with a smirk. Turbo chilled out after an 1/8th of a mile or so and we proceeded off our dead-end street and onto the main road. (Remember, this is the only place I have to drive and both horses are quite used to it.) All was well until Kody spooked at something and tried briefly to bolt, giving me an idea of how tangled things can get when your tandem leader does something silly. Thankfully he listened to "Whoa" and froze, stopping Turbo's run as well, and we resumed walking when all were calm. I realized then as I ducked up a quieter private drive that this really is going to be good preparation for our eventual work as a tandem and pair. I watched Turbo's ears flick uneasily as the cart rolled through the first dried leaves of autumn and saw him settle as nothing happened, watched Kody learn to accept Turbo coming along fast behind him and both horses get used to feeling the movements of the other through the cart and thought that although distinctly dangerous, this is also a very useful exercise.

However, I would never, NEVER try this with an inexperienced or spooky horse between the shafts as it only works because my driving horse trusts me and looks to my leadership. He understands that he must sit down on the breeching even when it pushes back, that if Mom says it's okay that the other horse is following fast then it's okay, and he doesn't get rattled as things get tense. At the end of our walk last night I let the boys move into a trot on the home stretch and part of the framework behind us slipped loose, allowing Turbo to come up beside the cart. Both boys immediately broke into a canter and were racing up the street, not panicked but definitely moving fast and ready to turn it into a rumble as boys will. Kody listened to my attempts to rate him and stayed straight between the shafts even though Turbo kept trying (unsuccessfully) to reach over the singletree and bite him and he allowed me to put the reins in one hand so I could use the other to try and manage Turbo. The kid was clueless and is lucky the wheel nut didn't nail him in the leg but did eventually back off as the initial excitement wore off and he started listening. Both boys were soon easily brought down to a trot and then a walk and were quite calm and happy. *This would not be the case if Kody weren't as experienced as he is!* He might easily have panicked or bolted or started trying to kick at the "pursuing" horse (I say "try" because I had a correctly-adjusted kick strap on as a precaution) and caused a true disaster. I cannot reiterate enough the value of a full partner between the shafts in an exercise like this. I trust Kody to pick up the slack when I fail and to know his job inside and out. We've had our accidents just like anyone else but he has never, ever failed me when I've needed him.





With the addition of a set of sport boots for Turbo to protect his front legs and of course redesigning the part that failed, we will continue this exercise over the winter and I will start cautiously mixing it up with blinders on Kody, blinders on Turbo when he starts carrying a bit, and eventually I'll have Mom ground-drive him beside and ahead of Kody with blinders on to get him used to hearing the other horse without seeing him. Of course each horse will continue to be taken out solo and worked as well so we don't get into too many buddy issues. Kody could care less where Turbo is but Turbo is not fond of being left behind.





I didn't intend on doing things this way but I hope that this process will result in a 3 year old who is very relaxed around carts, already experienced in the things he'll meet on the trail and all the scary sounds a driving horse must learn to deal with. Between that and all the ground work I'm doing all I should really have left to teach him in the spring is how to push into the breastcollar and sit on the breeching. Then it's just miles and confidence!

I know this isn't exactly standard driving training and I hope I've been clear about the risks (aka, "Seriously, don't try this at home!") but I wanted to share what we're doing.

Leia


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## Charley (Sep 13, 2010)

Very interesting! Thanks for sharing. I am not going to try this but it was great to read about it.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 13, 2010)

Thanks for the reply Charlie! I was beginning to worry I'd put my foot in my mouth or something. People always ask me to share what's going on with my horses so I get a bit concerned when I get 60 views and no replies.





Leia


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## jleonard (Sep 13, 2010)

I had to wait to respond until I had time to read your post! That is going to be so nice when it comes time to break Turbo, he'll already know the ropes! Wish I could do something similar with the two I'm working with now, but I don't trust any of mine enough to do something like this with them (doesn't help that the two in training and both bigger than the experience guys and could probably just drag them aroung



)

Keep us updated, I know I've already said it, but I really am getting excited to see Turbo driving!


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## Minxiesmom (Sep 13, 2010)

This is an interesting and effective way to desensitize Turbo. I wanted to do this with Max and Elvis, but never got around to it. Now Max is gone, so oh well. I watched another friend of mine do exactly the same thing with her young to-be driving horse, and he was very broke right from the start.

(It is just too bad Turbo doesn't have a spot.)


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## RhineStone (Sep 13, 2010)

Thanks for the disclaimer. We all know how many people _think_ they are experienced enough to try this at home just because they read it on the internet!





While we have not done this with minis or one driver, we have ponied our 2 yr. old big horse from our marathon vehicle. Chad stands on the back step and "leads" the mare while I drive the experienced gelding. She has learned all her gaits this way and knows that the vehicle "bangs and crashes".

Help me understand your "framework". How is it formed?





Who is going to be your leader? Kody?

I realize that you are at the point of just teaching Turbo to drive, but another technique that helps with them understanding the tandem idea is line driving one in front of the other. I line drive one while Chad drives the other. The wheeler learns that she has to keep up, while the leader gets used to the wheeler "on his butt". Usually at first, the wheeler thinks that they want to "pass" or get to the side of the leader because they would hardly ever be in line that close to another horse's butt in nature.

There were four tandems at Villa Louis this weekend, three big horse turnouts and one small pony turnout. Chad got to ride with one person who was having problems with their turnout, and ended up disconnecting the leader during the Cones class. Tandem turnouts can go very wrong very fast!



(Therefore, we hope to be there next year with ours!



)

Myrna


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## Al B (Sep 13, 2010)

Hey Leia, come on down to the AMHA World Show and I'll let you drive my tandem.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 13, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> While we have not done this with minis or one driver, we have ponied our 2 yr. old big horse from our marathon vehicle. Chad stands on the back step and "leads" the mare while I drive the experienced gelding. ...
> 
> Help me understand your "framework". How is it formed?
> 
> Who is going to be your leader? Kody?


 Having someone else on the cart pony the second horse would definitely be my preference for safety reasons but Kody is physically unable to haul two people due to his back injury. And since he's my only driving horse...well, that doesn't leave many options!



That's why I'm looking at tandem- there's no way Kody is up to being a wheeler and he might not be able to do pairs as I'd like (that remains to be seen) but he should have no problem effectively long-lining ahead of the other horse as a tandem leader.

I'll post some pictures of the framework and the horses attached to it later tonight.



RhineStone said:


> I realize that you are at the point of just teaching Turbo to drive, but another technique that helps with them understanding the tandem idea is line driving one in front of the other. I line drive one while Chad drives the other. The wheeler learns that she has to keep up, while the leader gets used to the wheeler "on his butt". Usually at first, the wheeler thinks that they want to "pass" or get to the side of the leader because they would hardly ever be in line that close to another horse's butt in nature.


You bet! We did that with Jessica's mares at the National Drive and I'll definitely do it with mine. I thought originally we wouldn't run into many problems doing tandem with Kody in front and Turbo behind because when we got the youngster Turbo was the kicker and Kody the instigating biter, and that way both the "problem ends" were at OPPOSITE ends!



Unfortunately as Turbo gained in both confidence and testosterone he started aggressively biting and play mounting and Kody figured out that kicking was an excellent way to dislodge the pest from his back. These days he's taken that to vindictive extremes, sometimes sidling up to Turbo just to turn his butt to him and whack him without cause. Little brat! They do stand close together though. When turned out for a few hours you'll most often find T peering around Kody's hip, so pressed up against him that they look like one horse with two heads from the front.



It's only when they start moving that Kody insists Turbo doesn't crowd, which I can hardly blame him for since at this point Turbo takes any movement at speed as a retreat and an invitation to try and herd the other horse.

That's why I'm hoping ponying will slowly introduce Kody to the idea that Turbo following him closely is not necessarily an aggressive act, and Turbo will learn it's possible to run together without playing. It will be very interesting to get the blinders back on Kody and see how he reacts when he can no longer see the other horse but hears him close behind. I think that may be the toughest part! He'll drive open in the formal tandem so he can see me unfurling the whip when he gets lazy but I want him to accept doing it closed as well for the breed shows. I'm relying on both Kody's sense of duty (he LOVES his driving) and the fact that by the time they're hitched there will be several years worth of "Thou Shall Not Play With or Discipline Thy Buddy With Tack On" lessons in place to prevent kicking problems. That, and Turbo will be gelded so a bit less inclined to bite! Hehehe....



Al B said:


> Hey Leia, come on down to the AMHA World Show and I'll let you drive my tandem.


Thanks Al! Wish I could. Maybe next year....

Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 14, 2010)

Here's a mobile phone photo of the framework itself. It's braced on the bottom of the cart so the horse can't shove it around and all the places where PVC meets PVC are drilled and tied together so it can't slip. The leadline is sandwiched between two sizes of PVC pipe at the back there and tied with a quick release knot around the seat where I can easily reach it when driving. Should the worst happen I could yank the knot and the lead would be pulled free of the framework, releasing the ponied horse. The only problem I ran into is that the removable cork stopper we put in place to keep the horse from getting himself on the end of the pipe and to hold the two pieces of PVC in place broke off early on, leaving the larger piece of PVC free to sometimes slip off the end if Turbo pulled hard enough. When that happened he was on a loose lead unconnected to the framework and could come up beside the cart. I've figured out a fix for that involving a couple more holes and some baling twine



so we should be fine now.






I'm always open to suggestions as this was just a prototype model! The biggest problem I need to resolve is how to make the whole thing easily removeable so I can pack the cart for travel and reassemble at the trail head. Right now it only fits in the back of the truck, which makes it hard for me to unload when the trailer is hitched. I'd also like to find somewhere else to tie the end of the lead as it's going to damage the foam of my seat back pretty quickly.

First hitting the beach






My favorite photo of the rig and Turbo trotting.






Turbo has pulled the leadline pretty loose here but it's such a nice shot I wanted to share anyway.






And seen from behind.






We did it the next day with a different cart that didn't have the framework and THAT was a mistake. I got bit. A lot. *LOL*

Leia


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## RhineStone (Sep 14, 2010)

Wow, a lot of thought went into that framework!



Glad to know that it worked better for you on than off! It would be a "crock" to find out that you didn't need it.

Myrna

p.s. And it is STILL so cool that you all can drive on the beach!


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## CZP1 (Sep 14, 2010)

Cool getup. Cody's frame is beautiful, Turbo is very cute!

Thanks for sharing!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 14, 2010)

Thanks! All those photos were taken within a few minutes as we first got started and Kody was wildly excited and overflexing so you'll have to forgive him. It sure looks artistic though, doesn't it?





Leia


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## susanne (Sep 14, 2010)

These photos (and your description in this thread of your drive at home) remind me of trains set up with an engine in front and an engine in back...


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## Margo_C-T (Sep 15, 2010)

Cool setup, Leia. As you noted, though, adds some hassle when transporting cart, and time, if it has to be mounted/removed.

I used to pony behind my EE cart quite a bit, various horses. Just tied them in the very center of the cart back, short enough so that they really couldn't come up beside the cart(though of course, one or another managed it anyway on occasion, but no harm ever resulted.) Doing this DID virtually demolish the seat back of my first Frontier, though, so when I sold it and got my current one, wanting to keep it as nice as I could, I used a length of HD leather strap w/ a good HD buckle, wrapped it twice around the metal seat back 'bar'mount, leaving enough 'slack' so that the lead could be threaded through it, and buckled it securely, then covered the whole buckle w/ good duct tape, and tied the lead rope(ALWAYS using a quick release knot, of course, w/ 'free' end easily accessible to me)through that 'loop'.

(It occurs to me as I write this that one might be able to use a small diameter nylon sash cord or similar to 'construct' a long 'loop', tied on each end to the 'arm rests' or just 'beyond' each end of the screwed-on seat back, then tie a loop in the center using a bowlin or similar knot that won't tighten down so that you can't untie it, and then tie your leadrope to that...this would help KEEP the tie location right in the center of the cart back, as one slight drawback of the leather strap I described is that it *can* slip to one end of the seatback mount, allowing the horse to end up 'beside' the cart.)

As for biting(one stallion did a LOT of that; if not to me,to the cart back!)--I used a 'standard' mesh 'no-eat' muzzle. Worked fine.

I do agree, it is NOT to be tried by most. Too much could go badly wrong, too quickly. I did it only after around 45 years of day-in and day-out 'horse' experience--and then, only because it was my only choice, w/ no one available here to help.

Margo


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 15, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> Doing this DID virtually demolish the seat back of my first Frontier, though, so when I sold it and got my current one, wanting to keep it as nice as I could, *I used a length of HD leather strap w/ a good HD buckle, wrapped it twice around the metal seat back 'bar'mount, leaving enough 'slack' so that the lead could be threaded through it, and buckled it securely, then covered the whole buckle w/ good duct tape, and tied the lead rope(ALWAYS using a quick release knot, of course, w/ 'free' end easily accessible to me)through that 'loop'.*
> (It occurs to me as I write this that one might be able to use a small diameter nylon sash cord or similar to 'construct' a long 'loop', tied on each end to the 'arm rests' or just 'beyond' each end of the screwed-on seat back, then tie a loop in the center using a bowlin or similar knot that won't tighten down so that you can't untie it, and then tie your leadrope to that...this would help KEEP the tie location right in the center of the cart back, as one slight drawback of the leather strap I described is that it *can* slip to one end of the seatback mount, allowing the horse to end up 'beside' the cart.)


What's HD?

I like the idea of using a loop to tie through but wouldn't want it in the middle as I would have difficulty reaching it behind my back to undo the knot in an emergency. Leather or a soft cord might also get sort of squinched up or squished in the knot, making it harder to release. I think what I'd do is make a loop off to the side where I could easily reach it and have a metal ring tied into the loop to run the leadline through. That might work nicely! Thanks for the idea, Margo.

I tried using two leads tied to each end of the other cart to keep him centered and it worked, but he was still able to come up over the back of the cart and nip/bite and thump me with his head. I much prefer the framework until the little brat is gelded!





Leia


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## RhineStone (Sep 15, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> What's HD?


My guess is Heavy Duty.

Myrna


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## Margo_C-T (Sep 15, 2010)

You guessed right, Myrna!





Margo


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## Marsha Cassada (Sep 16, 2010)

I took my backrest and seat to the upholsterers yesterday. I was ponying Dusty and he nipped the fabric in several places. Estimate of $65, which I thought was reasonable.

I use lead ropes tied to each arm rest. I feel it is very safe, but it does leave the cart upholstery vulnerable!





I have intentions to buy a muzzle, as Margot suggested, but I've never seen one on a real horse and am unsure how to use it.


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## BigDogs & LittleHorses (Sep 23, 2010)

Glad you posted some pictures because I couldn't figure out what you were trying to accomplish.

I was also trying to figure out why Keith and Susanne were also in one of the pics, when I didn't think you made it to the last outing at Long Beach. Susanne informed me it was from earlier this summer.

It sure looks different, putting the cart before the horse... well, I guess it's really putting the cart between the horses. A Leia sandwich, har har.

You must have a lot of confidence in your training and nerves of steel.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 23, 2010)

BigDogs & LittleHorses said:


> Glad you posted some pictures because I couldn't figure out what you were trying to accomplish.
> You must have a lot of confidence in your training and nerves of steel.


Heh, Daryl, all I was trying to accomplish was not leaving a two year old stallion behind in a stall, panicked without his buddy and having no fun at all. I wanted both my boys with me and can't drive Turbo yet so this was the way to make it happen!

There was definitely a bit of nerve involved (for better or worse) but after a year taking the boys out together is no longer quite so suicidal.



They're a handful when they get excited though!

Leia


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## disneyhorse (Sep 26, 2010)

I wish I had thought of that framework back when I did that! I used to just pony the other horse off the back of the seat, tied with a quick-release knot to the backrest. No biting though!

Andrea


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## LazyRanch (Sep 29, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I'm always open to suggestions as this was just a prototype model! The biggest problem I need to resolve is how to make the whole thing easily removeable so I can pack the cart for travel and reassemble at the trail head. Right now it only fits in the back of the truck, which makes it hard for me to unload when the trailer is hitched. I'd also like to find somewhere else to tie the end of the lead as it's going to damage the foam of my seat back pretty quickly.
> 
> Leia


OH! you have a beach! Real, live water . . . .

I have cactus and goats heads






I digress.

I frequently pony one or the other in our EE cart - so much time to condition and so little time to do it, so I have to make do with miles. I loosened the seat back screws and put in some flat tow-line nylon to make a loop around the bar itself, then retightened the seat.

From that loop I have attached a trailer tie - the quick release side clips on the loop and the snap side to the horse. Now I am harnessing both horses so I can drive one out, then swap them to come back.

As you say, this method isn't for everyone, but I know and trust my two: I know the stallion will face anything coming from behind or in front, the gelding will try to avoid "discolourations" like road lines and patches. But this is really helping him a lot. I did start out using a lead rope, but I have found the trailer tie, being a little stretchy, acts as a shock absorber, if Rascal decides to be silly. In preparation for this, I did tie Rascal with the trailer tie and intentionally spook him. Took him all of 3 minutes to learn that jumping back wasn't going to work much; the tie was just going to drag him forward.

The nylon loop has an adjustable sliding buckle I triple stitched in. I was thinking that would be the only way to get the loop on and off the seat bar. And if your EE is used for show, I guess you could put a halter fuzzy on it so it didn't rub the bar. I don't generally have problems with my stallion in company, but keep that little Vicks jar around just in case.

Cheryl


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## susanne (Sep 29, 2010)

> OH! you have a beach! Real, live water . . .


Sheryl, Here's a video from our 2008 Beachdrivers "tour."

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fu9OJgmh-gk

taken by Daryl (BigDogsLittleHorses on this forum)

You'll see Daryl and his chestnut mare Dancer; Leia and Kody (little chestnut gelding); and Mingus (leggy bay) and me (non-leggy blonde). I don't remember if Liz and Mouse or Val and Bojangles (blue-eyed bay sabino) got any screen time.


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## LazyRanch (Sep 30, 2010)

susanne said:


> Sheryl, Here's a video from our 2008 Beachdrivers "tour."
> 
> http://www.youtube.c...h?v=fu9OJgmh-gk
> 
> ...


Hi Susanne,

I couldn't get the url to work



but it's youtube! Gotta love that search!!

Mingus is Gorgeous!! and what a great trot he had going.

Hugs to Daryl for the great shots. I could just see PJ freighting down the wet sand. Rascal would likely have had a massive.

I miss the water so much, I'm almost ready to move to OR or WA.


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## BigDogs & LittleHorses (Sep 30, 2010)

LazyRanch said:


> Hi Susanne,
> 
> I couldn't get the url to work
> 
> ...


Hey there,

Here's the link to the video:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fu9OJgmh-gk

This video used to be in 480P quality but youtube downgraded it to 360P and then letterboxed it.





I think I have the raw footage from the camera and know some of it is in HD. Will have to re-do the video with improved quality and re-upload it.

Daryl


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## susanne (Oct 1, 2010)

That's what I get for posting a link and not checking it before I leave for a few days...

I'm glad you were able to search for it, Sheryl. And thanks, Daryl, for posting the correct link.

Thanks for your comments on Mingus -- we're still both works in progress, but he is far ahead of me!

.


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