# Pony breeders wondering what you think of the T/ASPC craze



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Mar 25, 2006)

I am curious those that have had ponies for a while what you think of the new craze for double reg ponies?

I have heard some say they think it will sort of die out soon as the double reg ponies the smaller ones arent competitive in the pony ring and there will be enough out there to add into R lines without worrying about entire herds being R/ASPC

OThers thing the opposite. I have no idea as I am not really up on pony stuff yet but curious where you see the trend going or where you hope it goes


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## CLC Stables (Mar 26, 2006)

Oh I don't think its a craze..........I think we are going to see it sticking around for a while..............I personally feel it will be the AMHA/AMHR type deal (at least for me)


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## mendocinobackofbeyond (Mar 26, 2006)

I am curious those that have had ponies for a while what you think of the new craze for double reg ponies?

I have heard some say they think it will sort of die out soon as the double reg ponies the smaller ones arent competitive in the pony ring and there will be enough out there to add into R lines without worrying about entire herds being R/ASPC

OThers thing the opposite. I have no idea as I am not really up on pony stuff yet but curious where you see the trend going or where you hope it goes

3-26-06 Hi: Like anything new, sort of, it's a hot market right now, but I think it'll slow down some as the newness wears off and there are more and more ASPC/AMHR animals out there, but I also believe that it is here to stay. IMO for Mini breeders it's a win/win situation. If the animal goes over as a mini, it can still show and compete as a Shetland. Speaking for myself, as someone who raises the larger Shetlands (43-45) and is currently purging our herd of anything under 43", it is unlikely that we'll ever have anything that could be hardshipped Mini. I tend to view it as a mainly appealing to Mini breeders, who maybe want a larger Mini and who like the added edge of the ASPC added to their papers. If I raised Minis, I'd definitely be going for it. Ta, Shirlee


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## kaykay (Mar 26, 2006)

i dont think its a fad at all and like rob said they are here to stay. They have been a presence in the show ring for many years now. I can also say that I get more inquiries on my amhr/aspc horses then any other horses on my site. I could have sold several of them many times over but since I am just starting I dont have any for sale (yet) I remember when I first saw one showing at my first show almost 4 years ago and people were complaining so loud about that "pony" winning the mini class. I think slowly attitudes are changing. I have to say we are pretty smitten with all of ours


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## bevann (Mar 26, 2006)

kaykay said:


> i dont think its a fad at all and like rob said they are here to stay. They have been a presence in the show ring for many years now. I can also say that I get more inquiries on my amhr/aspc horses then any other horses on my site. I could have sold several of them many times over but since I am just starting I dont have any for sale (yet) I remember when I first saw one showing at my first show almost 4 years ago and people were complaining so loud about that "pony" winning the mini class. I think slowly attitudes are changing. I have to say we are pretty smitten with all of ours


I am somewhat confused.I was under the impression if you had a Mini with AMHR papers only&it goes over 38" you have a nice grade something that can't be shown in registered shows.However if you have a Shetland that is under 38" it can be shown as a Mini.Please help me understand this.


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## CLC Stables (Mar 26, 2006)

Bevann, we are talking about the Miniature Shetlands here. The small shetlands registered AMHR.

Not the oversized minis that are not shetland registered.


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## Lewella (Mar 26, 2006)

I don't really view it as a fad. Ever since the AMHR started there have been ASPC/AMHR horses. What has changed is the preception of the word "pony" in the mini world. Now people brag about their horses having both ASPC and AMHR papers instead of hiding the ASPC heritage.


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## Sue_C. (Mar 26, 2006)

I would be all for it, if not for the _fact_ that there is so much Hackney blood in most of today's "Shetlands". I do not want to see the day that our nice "long strided" minis, become just another high-stepper. Sorry, but that's my opinion...and it's a pretty strong one.



:

Don't get me wrong...I love Hackneys, when _that's_ what they're registered as...but I don't even _like_ them under "assumed names". :no:


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## lyn_j (Mar 26, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt]Im all for it... even got another one this week! Also have a part hackney amhr only mare that I hardshipped two years ago and I love her![/SIZE]

Lyn


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## txminipinto (Mar 27, 2006)

Like the others have said, it's not a fad. I warn my clients with AMHR only horses that it will be difficult to place over a ASPC/AMHR horse due to the more refinement found in the shetlands. Not impossible, but difficult. That said, I don't feel that ASPC/AMHR horses can be as competitive in the ASPC ring. At the shows, I've attended, with expection of some of the Foundation classes, the larger ponies seem to be winning. If you want to show AMHR, then I'd get a double registered. But if you want to show ASPC, I'd stick with ASPC.


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## Cathy_H (Mar 28, 2006)

It is not a fad for Lee & I. We have been breeding & showing miniature horses since 1986. Lee prefers the double registered because of their size, look & they are easier on his bad back. As for temperment, I have seen some mini's that are worse than the shetlands................. We will be keeping 2-3 miniatures for myself & our grandchildren (after all we got into this in 85 when we bought one for me as a pet)....... Lee will concentrate on showing his double registered horses but will continue to show a mini or two sometimes.


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## susanne (Apr 1, 2006)

With the growing interest in driving and CDE, and the shift toward leggier, more refined minis (in all heights),

I can only imagine the popularity of double-registered ASPC/AMHR horses will continue to grow and become more mainstream.

Now, am I correct that ASPC shows are still decreasing in number? Perhaps ASPC should add a smaller division to encourage the ASPC/AMHR owners to show in Shetland-only shows. Granted, it would be a matter of semantics, but it would sweeten the appeal of pushing the height limit if the resulting foals could show competitively either way.


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## kaykay (Apr 1, 2006)

susanne illinois is full of amhr/aspc shows but I can tell you very few ponies ever show up. It was really hard showing patches as it was hard to get anyone to compete against. I know people wont like me saying this but I think part of the problem is ponies dont have to ever show to show in Pony Congress so theres no incentive to get out and show ponies. Now I do keep in mind in some parts of the country there are zero aspc shows so they cant show even if they wanted to. Kinda a catch 22. This is part of the reason we like the amhr/aspc we kinda feel like we get the best of both worlds but can still compete in amhr shows.


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## Lewella (Apr 2, 2006)

The number of shows for Shetlands just keeps growing in Area VI. A new show was added in 2004 and two more are being added this year. We'll have a total of six shows in MN, IA and NE with full slates of Shetland classes this year.


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## txminipinto (Apr 3, 2006)

Come to Texas if you're looking for ponies to compete against. We have several (7, I think) shows a year with entries in almost all the classes (Classic being the biggest). Now, if Illonois wasn't so far away, I'd come up there to show!



:


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## Lewella (Apr 3, 2006)

txminipinto said:


> Come to Texas if you're looking for ponies to compete against. We have several (7, I think) shows a year with entries in almost all the classes (Classic being the biggest). Now, if Illonois wasn't so far away, I'd come up there to show!
> 
> 
> 
> :


Hey Carin, you need to caravan up to some of the NE/IA shows! (Leah Johnson usually makes at least one and Dr. Sylvie and her crew are planning on at least one this year). All are 3 or 4 judge shows (except of course the Area National show) and have a flat rate and per class fee structure so you get plenty of bang for your buck if you have one that shows in a lot of classes.



:


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## txminipinto (Apr 4, 2006)

Leah and I have spoken about riding up together. Unfortunately, I really don't have a pony that would benefit from a flat fee, plus, taking that much time off at A&M (I already take at least a week off for Pinto World, Nationals, and maybe even Congress this year). There's just too many pony shows in Area V to justify the mileage to Illonois at this point. Maybe one year I'll be able to make the trip.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Apr 6, 2006)

txminipinto said:


> Like the others have said, it's not a fad. I warn my clients with AMHR only horses that it will be difficult to place over a ASPC/AMHR horse due to the more refinement found in the shetlands. Not impossible, but difficult. That said, I don't feel that ASPC/AMHR horses can be as competitive in the ASPC ring. At the shows, I've attended, with expection of some of the Foundation classes, the larger ponies seem to be winning. If you want to show AMHR, then I'd get a double registered. But if you want to show ASPC, I'd stick with ASPC.


Well let me explain myself better - what I meant was this...

You have a 36 in double reg mini, I have heard from many even on this board that the 36 in mini which may measure as a 38 in pony isnt really competitive in a ASPC class just like you said... so I guess my question was do you feel the double papers (for those mini breeders) will always be as important or do you think it will become easier for those to get a ASPC/R stallion and use him with there B mares so they have the "look" just not the papers rather then go and get a whole double reg herd

I do have to disagree with the R horse not placing over a ASPC/R horse.. I have done it.(and trust me anyone who has seen me show can attest to it had NOTHING to do with my talent) lol. however many times with many of my horses and others B minis you cant really tell the difference (I am talking halter wise not action wise) but then again.. all minis really are ASPC in one way or another just not papered some get more of the look then others

For those that suggested a smaller division I guess in a way that is what I was asking for those of you pony breeders how do you see using this to your advantage so to speak instead of getting a stallion to add to there herd.. ????


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## txminipinto (Apr 6, 2006)

Well let me explain myself better - what I meant was this...

You have a 36 in double reg mini, I have heard from many even on this board that the 36 in mini which may measure as a 38 in pony isnt really competitive in a ASPC class just like you said... so I guess my question was do you feel the double papers (for those mini breeders) will always be as important or do you think it will become easier for those to get a ASPC/R stallion and use him with there B mares so they have the "look" just not the papers rather then go and get a whole double reg herd

I do have to disagree with the R horse not placing over a ASPC/R horse.. I have done it.(and trust me anyone who has seen me show can attest to it had NOTHING to do with my talent) lol. however many times with many of my horses and others B minis you cant really tell the difference (I am talking halter wise not action wise) but then again.. all minis really are ASPC in one way or another just not papered some get more of the look then others

For those that suggested a smaller division I guess in a way that is what I was asking for those of you pony breeders how do you see using this to your advantage so to speak instead of getting a stallion to add to there herd.. ????

I think that as time goes by and more and more people are seeking the double registered shetland for their miniature horse herd, there will be more of a surplus of quality stallions to fill that niche. Right now, its hard to find a double registered stallion that's for sale. Do I think that they'll just get that double reg. stallion and not get any double reg. mares? No, that would be a poor business plan because the stallion is only 1/2 half of the breeding.

I didn't say a R only horse couldn't place over a double reg. shetland. I said it's hard. Just take a look at the Nationals last year. A good majority were double registered shetlands. Now, that said, I did have a R only mare place in the top ten in her class, so its not impossible (but I can tell you just before they called her name, I was doing some grumbling about double reg. shetlands!).

As far as breeders go, I think there's 3 divisions with some over lapping. There are the die hard mini people who only want "mini blood" in their herd, there are the double reg. people who want both, and then there are the shetland only breeders who don't like the mini look. In my personal opinion (for what ever that's worth!), the die hard mini breeders are going to be the ones that find it the toughest to win when they walk into a halter class regardless of level. Refinement is winning and its hard with some of the older mini bloodlines to get that refinement. I can look at a mini class and without knowing anything about any of the horses have a pretty good guess as to who has shetland papers and who doesn't.

With the arguement that all minis have shetland blood, I don't think that's true. I think we as an industry "forget" about the falabella influence in the miniature horse from many moons ago. I can promise you that out of the 3 minis on my place currently, only 1 MIGHT have some shetland way back there. The other two, well, if they have any shetland blood its only 1 drop and its from English descent.


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## Stacy Score (Apr 12, 2006)

Carin,

To quote Audrey Barrett of Arenosa Pony farm "I have shipped dozens of my ponies to Sr Fallabella over the years - he has been one of my best clients". This was said more than once during my conversations with her over the years - so it may be that many assume that the Fallabella herd was a "closed" herd, but in reality there were influences from outside his breeding program "helping" him along - it just wouldn't have looked very good on the paperwork now would it have



:

Not trying to stir anything up - just want to give credit where credit is due.

Stacy


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## Miniv (Apr 12, 2006)

Stacy Score said:


> Carin,
> 
> To quote Audrey Barrett of Arenosa Pony farm "I have shipped dozens of my ponies to Sr Fallabella over the years - he has been one of my best clients". This was said more than once during my conversations with her over the years - so it may be that many assume that the Fallabella herd was a "closed" herd, but in reality there were influences from outside his breeding program "helping" him along - it just wouldn't have looked very good on the paperwork now would it have
> 
> ...



Now that is VERY interesting..... considering that Sr. Fallabella's daughter stated (admitted) in an interview not too long ago that her father did use Shetland blood in his program. I don't think she said where the Shetlands had come from.

MA


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## alphahorses (Apr 30, 2006)

On ASPC/AMHR horses being competative in ASPC .... my ASPC/AMHR stallion won his class at Congress in 2004 and has won many Grand Championships since. I believe the Grand Champion Foundation Stallion at Congress this past year was double registered. My stallion's breeder often takes their double registered horses to both Congress and AMHR Nationals and wins both places.

It is true that it is very difficult - almost impossible - to compete when the shetland classes are not split by height into the "Under" and "Over" divisions or if the pony is very small (I'd say under 36") but I think the smaller good quality shetlands can be competative Under divisions or Foundation division.

To me the biggest appeal is that my horses will always be registered, even if they go over 38" I like the larger minis, but I could not afford the risk of breeding them if didn't have shetland papers to "fall back on"

What I find difficult is that I can't show my horses in both divisions at a given show and my show budget (or I should say GAST budget!) has its limits. So I have to decide that I will either show ASPC or AMHR. I have more shetlands and prefer to go to Congress over Nationals, so that is what I show right now. But I would love to show both if either the rules change or show managers begin splitting 2 day shows into 2 separate shows - one day AMHR and the other ASPC.


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## Karen S (May 4, 2006)

Good Morning,

Was re-reading this thread as I remembered something was a bit off from one of the posters regarding the Grand Champion Foundation Classic Stallion from the 2005 Shetland Congress...

I would like to correct your statement:

Quoted from Alphahorses post: " I believe the Grand Champion Foundation Stallion at Congress this past year was double registered".

Please go pull your October 2005 Journal and you will see that the 2005 Grand Champion Foundation Stallion was B & L Bar's G Rock E Hershey Bar (owned by Richard & Jacque Mason of Wimberly Texas) he is not a double registered horse. You are confusing him with B & L's Rock E Red Alert (owned by Mike & Lisa Strassle, from Texas) who wasn't at Congress (as he's not listed in any of the top ten places in his division) but did win the AMHR Stallion "Over" division at the 2005 AMHR National. "Redi" as he's called IS a double registered stallion...ASPC# 149503A & AMHR #245202B.

I know the confusion is coming from the "Rock E" name. Wall Street Rock "E" Mr. Mitz has recently been hardshipped in as a miniature and will be hitting the AMHR show circuit as a "Over" miniature in the gelding division so he now will be holding two sets of registration papers ASPC/AMHR.

As far as splitting a show into two seperate shows there isn't enough miniatures or shetlands in some of the areas to support two seperate shows. Way back in the late 90's we use to cross over at the same show with those shetlands that were doubled registered (ASPC/AMHR)....but guess what....lots of folks (mainly the minature people at that time) were complaining about those same horses showing (even though they had two sets of registration papers) and were winning in both divisions. That is why now you must choose which way you are going to show before hand. In some areas this would help the horse numbers and probably the entry numbers for those smaller shows as they would actually gain more money in the long run. Our club, the ASPC/AMHR Club of North Texas is getting pretty close (maybe in the next two years) that we might be able to split our club shows into two seperate shows (ASPC & AMHR) but for right now we can't.

Thanks.

Karen Shaw

Fiddlestix Miniatures & Shetlands

Burleson Texas

Show Committee Chair

ASPC/AMHR Club of N. Texas


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## ownedbyapony (May 4, 2006)

You are correct about Hershey Bar, however Red Alert did show at the 2005 Shetland Congress. He was shown in the under stallion division aged class and was reserve champion, as well as showing in the National Champion Get of Sire and the National Champion Produce of Dam.

Amber


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## Belinda (May 4, 2006)

Amber,

Your exactly right.. Red Alert was shown as a CLASSIC SHetland and did very well againist his classmater considering his size is only 35 1/2".. I did not think Redi was Foundation type and also he would not qualify for the Foundation Seal because of Pedigree.

I still say just show your horses by the type you feel they are and you will do fine.


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## Karen S (May 5, 2006)

Thanks Amber & Belinda,

I need to re-read my post before sending them! (LOL) What I was trying to say and it didn't come out the way I was thinking was..."Redi" wasn't shown at Congress as a Foundation (wasn't in the top ten) but should have read he was at Congress in the Classic division.

I know Mike and Lisa are as proud of him as his trainer/handler is/was. Belinda knows how to show all of the Rock "E" ponies to their very best and those of us that show against her/them know we have our work cut out for us for the show ring.

Again, Congrats to all of the Rock "E" line of horses.

Karen Shaw

Fiddlestix Miniatures & Shetlands

Burleson Texas


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