# Well Leia, I'm very late on this...



## BannerBrat (Feb 28, 2010)

Well for anyone interested here's my set up for when I'm sledding with the mini's.

This is a 4' ice fishing/wood hauling sled. The towels are for me to kneel or sit on.







This is the front of the sled. I tied the single tree to the sled like this. I also use this sled for other things, which is why there is extra rope on it.






I use rope traces (that I made) in the winter with my hook end single tree. You can see how it's connected to the hook here, and the way it's connected the loop gets tighter on the hook when the horse is pulling.






At the end of the traces there are these clips...






This shows the whole length of the traces, they are longer then they need to be but I've come to enjoy that length.






This shows the whole length of the traces w/ the sled. Again it's quite long.






Now here's my harness set up for sledding.






A close up of what I do with the breast collar and tug. I don't have a real reason to do this, other then it works well for me.






Now hitching is relatively simple. take the end of the trace, run it through some part of the hold back part of the britching, so that the trace doesn't get too low.






And the snap clips up to the clip I clipped to the breast collar and tug.






Well that's it. Ask any questions of course. And please be careful and take your time if you want to do this with your horse.



Just because he drives with a cart doesn't mean he will with a sled.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 1, 2010)

Thanks Ashley!! The singletree arrangement is pretty much what I'd pictured but it's nice to know that it will work.



I'll have to post some closeups of how I had my tandem wheeler set up for ground-driving as I used a similar setup with a carabiner from the Freedom Collar to the harness tug and holdback straps to keep the leader from being able to pull it forward off her chest. It worked pretty nicely and a kicking strap used in place of the entire breeching assembly on the leader (or in this case the sled horse) makes a neat and cheap trace carrier. Very elegant!

I wish it would have snowed here this year so I could have tried it but maybe it will next year when Kody's hopefully able to pull again or Turbo is old enough. I need a better sled though, one like yours.



We've only got the cheap children's sleds not something meant for serious usage like your wood-hauler.

Leia


----------



## Shortpig (Nov 25, 2010)

Looking at the wood hauler sled I'm wondering if a person could easily build a plastic pipe cage around it right under the lip of the sled. You could drill thru and use flat metal pieces to attach to front and back to hold it in place. It would go around the back of the sled. On the front of the sled a person could then attach the single tree hangers and add the single tree. Most of the stress would be on the full sled for pulling that way not just the front. I feel this might help to stabilize the sled and give more support for the shafts. One could then acually attach shafts to this and it would be like hitching to a cart. This would then keep the sled from riding up on the horses legs when stopping. This would also work for hauling a bale of hay out to the pasture feeders as it would float over the ground even when wet. Make the horse do the work to feed the herd.

Ron think plastic pipe shafts like Dorothy uses in her training to get them use to the shafts. I wish I had a program where I could put it together and then post the picture of what is in my brain. I do believe I would want a harness with a collar and hames to do this with. Nothing fancy just a good ole work type harness.

My link This is for the picture only check this out


----------



## MiLo Minis (Nov 25, 2010)

I am curious as to what you use for brakes to prevent the "sled" from running up on the horses heels? On the slightest bit of a slope the sled would move faster than the horse and ride up on him and I can't help but picture the rider getting the snot kicked out of him/her by a panicking horse. What prevents the horse from getting his leg over a trace on a turn where the singletree would end up on the ground as in these photos, again likely setting off a kicking session?

I would caution anyone against using this set up. Your cart trained horse would be presented with an entirely different scenario that most would not be happy with and both you and your horse could easily be injured - your horse may never drive again in a cart or anything else.

The other thing you need to consider is the angle of draft. Yes with the Freedom collar you have the angle covered and the weight distributed a bit better but this poster is showing a straight breast collar and attached to a much lower angle of draft. The first time the horse hits the load he is going to object. Using a breast collar for any length of time with this setup is going to be painful for the horse - breast collars are specifically meant for a straight line of draft much higher than this.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 25, 2010)

When I tried it on Tuesday I used my feet to brake the cart on a slight downhill slope and that worked fine except for leaving ugly ruts in the snow.



I also used a heavy chain to connect the sled and single tree so when it went out of draft (slid up on the horse) the chain dragged the ground like an anchor and the singletree itself would act as a stop for the cart if it really started sliding. Mostly I just avoided hills!





I had trace carriers holding the traces up near the stifles so there was no danger of him stepping over them while moving. He did step over the traces while fidgeting sideways but A) he's been taught the right reaction to ropes around his legs is to stop and wait for Mom to get him out, and B) I made darn sure in his initial driving training that he learned about getting a leg over a trace and how to step right back over it off voice commands. My dog steps over her leash when it gets around a foreleg, so does my horse. Mules were actually taught to jump the traces to swing a long hitch around a mountain trail- there's no reason a horse can't learn to untangle himself!

Obviously if your horse doesn't have these skills you're absolutely right that it's a recipe for disaster. The problem with my setup was I've never had a spare singletree to use before so I wasn't sure how to rig it and it ended up too close to Kody's hocks. He didn't hit it when moving but it touched his hind legs lightly when the sled went out of draft and he really wasn't happy with that after awhile. I'm going to redo it with the singletree attached closer to the sled and long traces to the horse and I think he'll be fine. It'll be the same overall distance between horse and sled, just much more room around his hind legs. He's used to long traces down low from hauling logs for me every now and then so that should be fine. I think I'll also wrap his legs to prevent any bruising in an accident and of course you should have a header with you to help get out of any tangles.

Honestly this is under the category of Stupid Human Tricks, just like regular sledding and snowboarding and skiing are, but just like those sports we do it because it's a lot of fun! Skiijoring is suicidal too, as is chariot racing, but you train for it and wear a helmet and don't do it with a green horse. I don't think it's a lot different from having them haul a tire drag except that the sled can come up on them much more easily and they need to be VERY well-educated in rope/trace skills to attempt it.

Leia


----------



## BannerBrat (Nov 25, 2010)

I don't know how you'd attach shafts to something like this, and I'm not looking to at all. I know the horses that I do this with and shafts are only going to complicate an already dangerous thing in my case. I know that it's hard to flip my set up, I've had Banner double back right next to me and change directions a few times, and the sled just pivots and follows him. *shrug* it works for what I do.

I use a hand or leg to slow the sled if I need to. Dangerous? You bet. Also the extra rope around the single tree will run under the sled if the singletree gets too close to the sled and that slows the sled as well. Where I train there isn't much hills so it's not that much of a problem, at home though where I started sledding we had hills, as well as when I'd go through the woods, and I did just what a said before, use a hand or leg to slow the sled.

I disagree about the breast collar, I use the freedom collar and straight collar interchangeably through out the winter with no issue. I see what your saying but I have found no resistance from the horses, and my boy especially is going to show when he's not comfortable.

And once again I'll say, yes this is a dangerous thing to do. I don't recommend anyone do it honestly. I only do it because I know all of the risks and I'm okay with it. I've done it with a lot of different mini's now and it's a way for me to get them worked in the winter, and if I need any thing hauled I use it for that too. But I guess I should say, I'm 18 and I've acquired some really quick reflexes and generally see a lot of problems before they actually become problems. I only posted this because people wanted to see how I did it. Just like anything else you've got to be able to watch a lot of things at once to make sure you don;t get you or your horse hurt, for me that's fine. I manage to do all of that and still have fun.


----------



## MiLo Minis (Nov 26, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> ....just like regular sledding and snowboarding and skiing are, but just like those sports we do it because it's a lot of fun! Skiijoring is suicidal too, as is chariot racing, but you train for it and wear a helmet and don't do it with a green horse.
> 
> Leia


The difference between this and regular sledding, snowboarding and skiing are that you are asking another being to participate - one that can't voice his opinion. I get that it is a real hoot for you - not so sure that your horse is enjoying it quite so much or completely understands the risks. One of the things I ask my horse to do is trust that I won't get him hurt. This fun little exercise could easily ruin a whole lot of built up training and trust.

There is proper equipment available for purchase out there for sleighing/sledding with horses and I believe we owe it to them, if we want to do something like this, to use equipment that poses the least amount of risk to them. No amount of training is going to allow this activity to be an acceptable risk. I may sound like an old fuddy duddy but I assure you I enjoy playing with my horses as much as the next guy.

I don't see skijoring or chariot racing comparing at all as that is done with proper equipment to make it as safe as possible for the horse - they are no more hazardous than carriage driving. I hope anyone trying this has the good sense to carry a knife in their pocket at all times (something I advise any horseperson to carry at all times anyway) I am just picturing a loose panicked horse with this light plastic sled, ropes and chains flying around him, and the result. Maybe I have just seen too many bad things happen to horses.


----------



## RhineStone (Nov 26, 2010)

I too really advocate the use of shafts to hold back the vehicle. You remember when you were younger and you used to take your family's wheelbarrow out of the garage, drag it around and pretend you were a horse and carriage? Hooking a sled to a mini is really not much different. When you used your wheelbarrow, you had your arms to "hold it back". I think depending on yourself to act as brakes for the vehicle is asking too much of yourself. You may not have enough arms and legs in some circumstances. I know that all of you wouldn't hook a two-wheeled wheelbarrow to your horse with binder twine. I really don't see the difference here. Yes, the snow can provide _some more_ resistance than dry ground, but in some circumstances, it can be even more slippery. It's like hooking a cart without shafts. I KNOW you wouldn't do that. And PVC can become brittle in the cold, which might shatter and create MORE of a hazard than not. Get some real hickory shafts and hook it up properly.

Here is a set up like you are trying to acheive that is MUCH safer, and this turnout was even in the 2010 Mischka calendar (January). http://www.mischkapics.com/Equines/Driving-Horses/010910-Ashland-sleigh-rally/10924265_LT3cZ/4/764564274_Y7C78/Medium

Please take a look at the photo and reconsider your choices in set ups.

Myrna (who is, by no means, a sleigh expert, but I know some in the nearby great Northwoods of Wisconsin, and they would NEVER even attempt this. If they wouldn't do it, I wouldn't either. It is an accident waiting to happen to people that know better.)


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Nov 26, 2010)

I've been following along on this thread with great interest. I find it fascinating to hear of every ones winter time 'games' with their horses. Here our snow gets far too deep (and often the temps are too cold) to even consider driving unless it is on plowed roads, in which case there is often a concern with traction for the horses. If I were going to drive tho I would love to have a sled like the one pictured. What a perfect set up, loved it.


----------



## studiowvw (Nov 26, 2010)

I love the little wood sled with the curved shafts - too cute!

I have one of those black plastic firewood sleds and it is pretty heavy, about 40 lbs. I believe you can buy a rigid hitch for them for snowmobiles, etc.

However, last year my brothers were using it to tow their kids around with the snowmobile on the lake, and they said it was "somewhat" dangerous because without a rigid tow bar, it flew around and sometimes was actually trying to pass the snowmobile.

I think it is tough enough plastic construction you could attach a set of shafts, if you were handy. Without shafts, the lack of braking would worry me, being older and stiffer although when I was young we did play around with horses, ponies and sleds, skiis, etc.

I have a couple of old horse size sleigh shafts and they seem to hook on with bolts through looped steel, so the shaft fronts can move up & down. However sleighs have thin runners that would track pretty well except on ice, and this black sled, although it does have a grooved bottom, doesn't have sharp enough "runners" to keep it from floating sideways.

I'd compare it to a whitewater kayak (smooth bottom for great maneuvering) rather than a touring kayak which has a sharp skeg to keep it tracking straight (for more efficient forward travel).

Wilma


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 26, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Here is a set up like you are trying to acheive that is MUCH safer, and this turnout was even in the 2010 Mischka calendar (January). http://www.mischkapics.com/Equines/Driving-Horses/010910-Ashland-sleigh-rally/10924265_LT3cZ/4/764564274_Y7C78/Medium


That's a great setup!



Wish I had the materials to put it together.



MiLo Minis said:


> The difference between this and regular sledding, snowboarding and skiing are that you are asking another being to participate - one that can't voice his opinion. I get that it is a real hoot for you - not so sure that your horse is enjoying it quite so much or completely understands the risks.


Like you, like Myrna, like Ashley, I have always taken deep care that my horses enjoy their work whether that is trick training, walking a trail together or pulling a cart. Horses do not understand risks- that is why, as you said, it is our job to watch out for them and make sure they do not get hurt. I will tell you I was more busy worrying about what could go wrong than having fun our first time out with the sled! Kody was far less worried than I was.







MiLo Minis said:


> I don't see skijoring or chariot racing comparing at all as that is done with proper equipment to make it as safe as possible for the horse - they are no more hazardous than carriage driving.


My understanding was that skiijoring was usually some yahoo on skiis tying himself to a horse and being pulled along at a gallop- is there such a thing as "proper equipment" for that?



I figured sledding with them was about the same!

Chariot racing used to be one of the most dangerous sports in the ancient world; men and horses died regularly in crashes.

Leia


----------



## susanne (Nov 26, 2010)

The rigid tow bar that comes with these is a v-shaped shaft that attaches to the vehicle at a single point and so is not suitable for attaching to a horse's harness.

As I've mentioned on a couple of threads discussing ice/calving/firewood sleds, I believe the pipe shafts from an easy entry cart would work fine if properly attached (therein lies the rub).

As for regular shafts causing tipovers, would it be possible to rig a swivel attachment to allow the shafts to move slightly without tipping the cart. It also seems that a sliding backband would be a big adventage in pulling a sled.

I love the shaft set-up in the photo Myrna linked, as there would be less danger of the horse putting a leg over the shafts. I wonder if that sled is one-of-a-kind or if someone is marketing them...

I'd really like to see someone with fabrication capabilities (hint, hint) address the drawbacks and market such a sled specifically for minis and ponies. In addition to snow play, this would be fantastic as a summer work sled (at least over grass and smooth ground).

As for this now-melting snowfall, ours fell, softened, then froze hard as a rock. The poor ponies chopped up the mud at the front of their corral, then the snow, and then had to try to walk across a frozen moonscape. They were not amused.


----------



## RhineStone (Nov 26, 2010)

susanne said:


> I love the shaft set-up in the photo Myrna linked, as there would be less danger of the horse putting a leg over the shafts. I wonder if that sled is one-of-a-kind or if someone is marketing them...
> 
> I'd really like to see someone with fabrication capabilities (hint, hint) address the drawbacks and market such a sled specifically for minis and ponies. In addition to snow play, this would be fantastic as a summer work sled (at least over grass and smooth ground).


I can find that out for you! I will email the friend of ours that has it and get back to you.

The "summer work sled" would be called a Stone Boat.

Myrna


----------



## susanne (Nov 26, 2010)

Yes, I'm familiar with the term, but since wood/calving/ice fishing/snow play/stone boat is getting a unwieldy, and marketing for a new use calls for a different name, I think work sled or pony sled might do the trick, lol.


----------



## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> My understanding was that skiijoring was usually some yahoo on skiis tying himself to a horse and being pulled along at a gallop- is there such a thing as "proper equipment" for that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My point is that there IS equipment available to use for your horse and you to enjoy sledding with relative safely and we owe it to our horses not to be "yahoos" and use the safest, most humane methods available. I love Myrna's photo of the little sled - looks very similar but much safer. Just as in most sports there is still some risk involved but that IS part of the thrill of sports isn't it?!


----------



## Minimor (Nov 27, 2010)

That photo Myrna posted is exactly what I had in mind for shafts if I ever got around to setting up one of my chore sleds for pulling with a horse...I just haven't wanted to go sledding bad enough to get around to finding someone to make a set of shafts for me!



Our winter weather is often too cold, and the snow usually ends up being too deep, and it's just not worth the effort to bother with it.

When I used a horse and the big chore sled for hauling manure the one winter, I just used a stoneboat type set up--no shafts--the load of manure was heavy enough that it didn't skim fast over the snow, and when we hauled the load out it was on a slight uphill grade, so no worries about the horse getting his heels run over. Coming back empty, downhill, I unhitched the horse & pulled the sled myself--empty, or with me riding in it, coming down that slight slope, the sled would have run into him for sure.

I would never hitch a horse hard & fast to a plastic sled that is light enough to skim over the snow & go faster than the horse. We used to toboggan ride behind one of the Morgans--we'd sit on a bale of straw on the toboggan, which was "hitched" to the horse by way of a rope--kind of hard to explain, but the rope was run through rings on the traces and back to the sled, & the end of the rope was held by my passenger. If things went wrong (sled tipped over....happened sometimes with the toboggan!) you just let go of the rope & the horse came free of the sled. I held onto the extra long lines, traces were up through a hip strap so they weren't under the horse's feet, we'd straighten things out, hitch up again & continue on. That quick release method is the only way I will hitch a horse to a light sled without shafts.


----------



## susanne (Nov 27, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> My point is that there IS equipment available to use for your horse and you to enjoy sledding with relative safely and we owe it to our horses not to be "yahoos" and use the safest, most humane methods available. I love Myrna's photo of the little sled - looks very similar but much safer. Just as in most sports there is still some risk involved but that IS part of the thrill of sports isn't it?!


But our point is that sleighs or sleds that work for most of us AREN'T available.

And MY point in all of my postings is to CREATE *or find) a safe, humane way to sled with my horse. I totally agree, I would insist on having shafts to try this.

But I'm not about to stop dreaming because it's not currently available -- if it's not out there, then MAKE IT.

I'm in no way discounting your safety concerns, Lori; the safety and happiness of my horse is always foremost in my mind. Yet I refuse to believe there isn't a way to have my (albeit frozen) cake and eat it, too. My trouble is, I'm an inventor at heart, but sadly not a fabricator.

Another route would be to create "skis" for an easy entry cart (or a HyperBike) -- wide runners that would skate over the ground like a sled, but using existing shafts, basket and seat.


----------



## Sue_C. (Nov 27, 2010)

> Another route would be to create "skis" for an easy entry cart (or a HyperBike) -- wide runners that would skate over the ground like a sled, but using existing shafts, basket and seat.


They already exist...you can buy them now. Several EE manufacturers sell them.


----------



## studiowvw (Nov 27, 2010)

http://www.aaronmartin.com/product.php?cat_id=2209&catview=318&submit=View

This is a sled offered for minis at www.aaronmartin.com in Ontario.

It isn't the most attractive thing.

Wilma


----------



## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2010)

susanne said:


> But our point is that sleighs or sleds that work for most of us AREN'T available.
> 
> Another route would be to create "skis" for an easy entry cart (or a HyperBike) -- wide runners that would skate over the ground like a sled, but using existing shafts, basket and seat.


There are several places that make beautiful Miniature sleighs - Justin Carriage Works and Outram Cutters to name a couple. Of course these are not inexpensive vehicles but as Sue C. pointed out there are quite a few places to buy runners for your EE's that are not much more than $100. Aaron Martin's little bobsled works well as a work-horse vehicle but you don't exactly fly with it as the drag is fairly heavy. I really don't see why you couldn't set up shafts on a little sled such as the original poster shows - all you would have to do is make holes in the front of the sled (melt through the plastic) and attach a set of shafts to it. You would need to address the lower point of draft if you used straight shafts and perhaps your EE shafts might not be quite long enough....hmmm....maybe my pony shafts.......I will let you know how it works! I happen to have a set of curved shafts like the ones on the photo Myrna showed, they belong to my wagonette. They weren't that expensive to have made - just over $100.


----------



## susanne (Nov 27, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> They already exist...you can buy them now. Several EE manufacturers sell them.


As I've said, I've seen the ones sold for EE carts and they don't work if the snow isn't packed down -- you may have that, but our snow, when we get it, is generally either powder, very wet, or not deep enough. The narrow runners dig down in that stuff. (We got a play sled with that type of runners when we were kids and NEVER were able to use it...sob) That's why I said wide (like several inches wide) runners attached to an EE, like skis.

Thanks for the link, Wilma -- that's a cute sled and a great price. I'm not certain from the photo if those runners are wide enough.

Lori, I believe we're on the same page but going around in circles. I've had to flit in and out here due to pressing deadlines, so I probably have been clear as mud. Yes, I agree with the metal EE shafts attached to the work sled.


----------



## Sue_C. (Nov 27, 2010)

> Another route would be to create "skis" for an easy entry cart (or a HyperBike) -- wide runners that would skate over the ground like a sled, but using existing shafts, basket and seat.





> As I've said, I've seen the ones sold for EE carts and they don't work


Sorry, didn't remember you saying that... Why not just take a set of old snow mobile skis and have someone make them from that...it would be easy.


----------



## susanne (Nov 28, 2010)

Sorry, Sue -- I shouldn't have written while up to my eyeballs in deadlines...I wrote that in a rush and I wasn't exactly clear.

That is a good idea about the skis.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 28, 2010)

That's it. I'm calling Bob about skiis for the Hyperbike!

Leia


----------



## susanne (Nov 28, 2010)

Leia, that's who I had in mind -- I was hoping he'd pop in here and see all of this.


----------



## RhineStone (Nov 30, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> I can find that out for you! I will email the friend of ours that has it and get back to you.


I emailed my friend and she put me in contact with the owner of the red sled in the Mischka photo. Here is what she said:

"It is a old wood or stone boat that was made by [my husband's] dad, 45 years ago, my husband made the shafts. He is a great person for making sleds and carts, he puts his heart into his work."

So there you go. It is homemade from Wisconsin.

Myrna


----------



## susanne (Nov 30, 2010)

.

Thanks for asking, Myrna. They sure did a beautiful job!

.


----------

