# cart questions, please chime in if you know the answers



## Carolyn R (Nov 12, 2009)

Sorry to be a pest, but when I order another cart I want to be as informed as possible.

First off, does the pacific carriage co. ever run holiday or show season sales? (don't laugh)

Next, does the winged corduroy seat on the Jerald cart have a deeper seat/taller back than the Graber seats?(just trying to hide the junk in my trunk)

Third, if you all had a choice and you were between showing the breed shows (country pleasure) and seriously checking into the CDEs, and would end up doing a touch of each, which would you choose.....

A Smart Cart

OR

a show cart like a Graber or Jerald and a Hyperbike

Right now the smart cart and a hyperbike are out, way over on the cart budget if I do that.

Last, do used Smart Carts ever show up, LOL.

I like the Grabers, have had two, I am always looking to upgrade, a better fit for the horse, a bigger wheel, a smoother ride.....


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## nbark (Nov 12, 2009)

You are funny Carolyn, lol

I have the smart cart, I named it 401, for obvious reasons and have a little license plate on the back with that number...

I do the CDEs and trail drive and I love the smart cart. I too went WAY over budget, robbed the 401 but was the best investment I made because it is so versatile...I am now going to pairs and my smart cart turns into a genius cart by removing the shafts and adding a pairs pole....not to mention all the other adjustments that can be made to fit the horse properly and to balance it out, which a lot of carts can't do..The shafts adjust for length, the shaft base adjusts for height, the seat adjusts, the floor adjusts, the airbags adjust...It is truly an amazing cart and the reason you don't see them up for sale used AND if you did see them used, they wouldn't be much cheaper than brand new, which also makes them a great investment.

As for them being on sale, I doubt it, but you never know....Hope this helps a little


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## susanne (Nov 14, 2009)

Carolyn,

I hope you can hang on for a bit, as several members who drive the carts you have mentioned and who can answer all or most of your questions are on "vacation."

If you need your answer immediately, feel free to email me and I can get answers for you.


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## Carolyn R (Nov 14, 2009)

I am sure hoping they can revisit this topic when they are"back in town". Any input is greatly appreciated. I love the look of the smart carts, but I am thinking there really may be other better choices for me out there.


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## Minimor (Nov 14, 2009)

As far as I know Pacific Carriage doesn't do sales....but they DO give some nice discounts on options when you're a repeat buyer!



> Third, if you all had a choice and you were between showing the breed shows (country pleasure) and seriously checking into the CDEs, and would end up doing a touch of each, which would you choose.....A Smart Cart
> 
> OR
> 
> a show cart like a Graber or Jerald and a Hyperbike


 No contest, the Smart Cart! For me a Jerald or Graber would be for the showring only--for cross country driving there's just no comparison to the Smart Cart in terms of a comfortable ride and durability. The hyperbike just isn't something I would personally consider. I know some people love them, but I simply do not care for them & have no interest in owning one.
And yes, used Smart Carts do come up for sale; I've seen at least two advertised. Neither had been used very much, as I recall, and they were still right up there in price.


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## Elizabeth Pannill (Nov 14, 2009)

I finally decided on a Pacific Smart Cart . I debated and debated but decided it was worth the $$ . I have a 33 " mini and a 36 " mini. The cart will be used for the larger one but I have driven it to my 33 " mini and he did fine but we were on a flat surface. My main interest in driving is pleasure driving ,CDE and driving trials .

My younger larger mini is still at the trainers ( a trainer who drives full size horses ) . She has been very impressed with the Smart Cart and says it is a smoother ride than some of her large carriages.

Although, it may not be totally appropriate , I plan to use the Smart cart if I ever show in local breed shows.

Elizabeth


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 14, 2009)

I think the Smart Cart is a lovely vehicle, but I stand by my opinion that, for a driver my size(I weigh around 180 lbs.)at least, it may well be too 'much' for an A sized mini. This is based on personal observation...a friend of mine bought a Smart Cart, used it here one time when we had a casual 'fun day' of obstacle driving, etc. in my arena -- which is both level and good footing- firm, but not 'hard'. Her horse was a 36" gelding of medium build;not 'highly' conditioned, but young and in good shape in every way. I both saw her drive and got to drive him myself. I noted that he was clearly having to put noticable effort into pulling the cart, even under these modest 'working' circumstances.I just can't see MOST A sized horses managing it on tough terrain or course(and with all due respect, I'd have to see for myself,a 29" horse handily pulling a Smart Cart, with even an 'average-sized' adult, to be convinced if that's a good idea.)

My Bennington weighs just at 110 lbs., it is fine for me with my 37" horse; the 'Missouri Flyer' I recently sold, fully outfitted, almost exactly the same(which is why I sold it; I'd wanted something NOTABLY lighter in weight but with the same features for my A horses, and despite reports to the builder(by another buyer) of a notably lighter weight, it didn't 'end up' that way)...it was a great cart, but I already owned one 'like it', as it turned out...the Benny...and didn't need two of essentially the same thing.

I am STILL 'on the hunt' for a cart with the features that *I* desire...wide steel (or aluminum) wheels, good suspension(whether it be torsion bars, half elliptical, or whatever), low draft, sturdy construction and finish, a DEEP (front to back;I LOVE the Benny's 17" deep, 3" 'thick' dense foam seat; find the GREATEST drawback to all of the 'pipe' EE carts I've seen, including Frontier, which I consider the 'best of the lot', to be the very shallow-most are 11-12" at best-and 'thin'--only 2" foam--seats; either a single seat or some 'set up' with a wedge and 'sides', to keep you 'in place' on fast manuevering, an easy entry feature, and a roomy 'basket', and marathon, or at the least, 'gooseneck, gig-type shafts. There are now several carts that I'm aware of 'out there' that come close...the newest model from Bellcrown, the newer Bennington(which is now pretty pricey to purchase, due to the drop in the value of the US dollar-and this before you consider shipping it from England!); even the PNW-originating "Scotsman"(except it has that shallow, thin, seat thing going on, best I can tell, yet IMO is kind of 'pricey'compared to its competitors)... I have recently begun to 'think about' a Hyperbike, purely due to its TRULY light weight, but...I don't really care for its WIDE wheelbase, nor how challenging it is to 'mount'(I'm old!), and am not at all sure I'd like the 'feet up all the time' driving position...so not sure I could/would 'go that route'...I still need to do --MORE RESEARCH!!

If I were lighter weight myself, my 'short list', for an 'all purpose' cart that would be fully suitable for CDEs, would include the Smart Cart ; for me personally, I'd look at the Bellcrown, and if I could scare up the money(!!) would also consider the 'new' Bennington for minis. The 'Missouri Flyer' is not being built(builder became ill, isn't building anymore, so I heard), or it would be included. Don't know if Russ Hardwick,the man who builds the 'Tadpole' pair vehicle, is building a two-wheeler for minis, but if he is, I'd look at it! All of the ones above that are currently being built have excellent reputations and experience behind them, and I think that is important. Seems there are new entries into the mini vehicle market all the time, nowadays, so there may well be some I've yet to hear about/discover...hope anyone who comes across any will share here!

(On the question about the wingback seat? From photos I've seen, it appeared that the Houghton might have the 'deepest' wingback. Of course, they went out of business; their assets were sold to Jerald...but used ones might occasionally come available. My friend who bought the Smart Cart sold that horse, then sold the SC, locally and quickly, for what she paid new, less her shipping cost.)

Margo...still in search of the 'perfect' cart! The Benny 'does it' for the larger mini, but I've yet to find what I'd REALLY like for the A sizes!


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## Minimor (Nov 15, 2009)

Margo I don't understand how you can possibly consider the Smart Cart too heavy, even for the 36" horse your mention, when it's only 5 lbs heavier than your Bennington, which you say is wonderful for a 37" horse?


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 15, 2009)

Lori, read my entire post again. What I said was that I consider it too heavy for A sized horses when the driver is around my weight, which I listed. Might there be the occasional 'extra tough' horse who could 'do it all' with this cart and someone of my weight driving...sure, there might be...heck, I have one myself, 33 1/2" and pretty darned refined, but with the heart of a LION and the will to work until he DROPS...but that doesn't mean I will actually EXPECT, or ASK, him to do so; it wouldn't be fair or ethical. I love him; would never want to do him harm.

Actually, I should have been more specific. My 'old' larger mini, with whom I used the Benny exclusively, was actually right AT 38", and a strong 'puller'; she had NO issues, ever, with the Benny. I have not yet driven my new 37" gelding to the Benny, but he is quite stout--built pretty much like an original UK Shetland, actually, so shouldn't have any issues with it either- but I will admit, I don't yet know that for sure.

I would not ask any of my A horses--out of the six miniatures I have left, I have five A sized, four of which drive, ranging from a tough 32" through a refined 33 1/2" to two 'right at, honestly', 34", of medium build-to pull a Smart cart, with me as the driver, anywhere but on firm and level terrain, for any appreciable length of time. It's not so much that I believe that they flatly 'couldn't'; it's that I don't think it would be fair to them to ask them to do so.

With all due respect--I believe it behooves thoughtful miniature horse owners to always try NOT to 'overface' their driving horses. I *have* seen it happen(though thankfully, not frequently)--and one of the worse results is what such situations can cause other drivers, and indeed, even reasonable members of the general public, to think of miniature horse drivers. Like many others, I believe most miniature horses ARE tough, pound for pound, but even so,I STRONGLY believe that good and considerate judgement should always, ALWAYS, be used.

Flames to Joe Price....

Margo


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## susanne (Nov 15, 2009)

Margo, when you find that perfect cart, I'll be placing my order, too! It seems. My wish list includes versatility -- the ability to cover most driving circumstances. Comfortable, lightweight, lightweight, interchangeable seats (single to double), rugged enough for trail, good looking (or with options to dress it up)...and if it converts to roadster or high clearance for trail, all the better. And with all of this, you shouldn't have to mortgage your home to afford it!

So far, several carts come close, but they don't quite have it.

Margo, speaking as one with serious leg and back issues, I'll say that if I can comfortably drive a Hyperbike, just about anyone can. Getting in, I either step over one shaft and then sit and put my legs up, or I sit down and swing both legs over (and around). The bucket seat is extremely comfortable, and the stirrups can be rotated around to where your foot rests lower than the shaft on the outside. -- a few inches make a big difference. The only caution is to not do like I did -- I did a marathon in the hyperbike without taking time to stretch my legs...

I think youn need to come up for our beach drive next summer and try it out!


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## Carolyn R (Nov 15, 2009)

Okay Susanne, spill it. If several carts come close in your opinion, lets hear them. *I want all the input I can get!*


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## nbark (Nov 15, 2009)

My A mini pulls me in the Smart Cart and I am 10 lb heavier than Margo and we do trails, ADTs, and CDEs..as someone said, it is only 5 lb more than most carts on the market today but is totally adjustable to balance out for any mini from 30 to 38 (?) I believe. When I bought mine, the dealer came to my barn and "fitted" it out to my mini....Just some added info....


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## Minimor (Nov 15, 2009)

I'm Holly, not Lori...

I know, Margo, you've always maintained that the Smart Cart is too heavy for the A horses, but now you've also said that it was too heavy for a 36" horse and that's what I was commenting on earlier. You're convinced that it's too heavy for the A horses and yet it seems you're basing your opinion on one drive with one horse? A 36" horse that acted as if the cart was too heavy for him to pull comfortably. I can assure you that this cart is not too heavy for the average 36" horse, so for whatever reason that particular horse wasn't a good or fair test of the cart. Are you absolutely sure that the cart was adjusted so that it was balanced right for him? Are you sure that he didn't have anything going on physically that made him a poor driving prospect--a seemingly sound horse can have hock issues that make pulling difficult.

I've barely used my cart on my smaller Minis (and I don't have many that are under 34" anyway, and those are just barely under 34") but others that do drive smaller ones on it say the cart is okay for them. I trust that some of them, maybe most of them, know that they are not overfacing their horses by driving them on this cart. I don't know the weight of those drivers; my own weight is somewhat less than yours--they may be lighter or heavier, I don't know. But, I don't think it's entirely fair to tell everyone repeatedly that a specific cart is too heavy for a certain size when there are so many other factors to consider (driver weight is one) and when you've only used the cart once on one horse.


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## Shari (Nov 15, 2009)

Of all the carts I have owned, sat in and pulled around or have driven for mini's. so far.. (Did not include a smart cart yet) my Country Road Cart has the best suspension, I bought the cloth seats and the back rest is perfect for me. Lots of room for my legs and over all a nice cart. I have only done trail with it. Walking and trotting mostly... some canter up hills. But I would not recommend it for any mini under 33"... even if they were in shape.

I had mine weighed at 110lb with the wooden wheels and dashboard. Maggie is fine with it on the flat but needs to be in good shape with the weight I have now to drive hills.

I want a Hyper bike soooo bad!! But with the damage to my back.. I was in some serious pain after my short drive.. I did last year or so ago. Would have to see about driving in one again now and see if I have the same issues. But weight wise.. that would be perfect for Maggie. I also love how wide the wheels are.

My Country Road Cart doesn't bother my back at all, that is how nice the ride is.

Wish they could come up with a strong..nice looking cart weighing at most about 50 to 60lbs.


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## Carolyn R (Nov 15, 2009)

Would this cart, with proper wheels, be appropriate for the marathon portion of the course? (or is the wheel base too narrow?)I plan on getting a hyperbike but until I do.......

I love this cart, and my boy trucks around in it with no issues. I wish the maker still advertised them (lignite carriage company)


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 15, 2009)

Yup SHE'S Holly - I am Lori!



And I didn't chime in on this thread because I don't have a wide range of carts that I have used - just make do with my several easy entry metal training carts, 2 wooden Meadowbrook style carts and Graber show cart. Although I often drool over a Smart Cart and actually did get to drive in one once I have not had the budget that would allow me to actually acquire one. Someday.......


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 15, 2009)

My apologies for mis-addressing you, Holly.

All I want to add is that what I have given is MY OPINION, and I made that clear. Your OPINION may well be different, and that's fine-in fact, how it is supposed to be. I am curious, though, as to how you believe 'fairness' enters in? You and anyone else are PERFECTLY free to disregard my opinions, as I am, yours.

I won't get into a long treatise on why I formed my opinion, but do, please, give me credit for having considered the points you bring up...I am well-versed in my subject, and such items as conformational issues and proper cart balance WERE in fact specifically considered...I didn't start doing this yesterday. I'll just say, I am comfortable with my reasoning; my opinion wasn't arrived at lightly, and I stand by it as I've stated.

I am sure that those who do their research and consider all factors unique to THEIR circumstances will make a good decision for THEM, and can rightfully be happy with the results, cartwise.

Margo


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 15, 2009)

Carolyn R said:


> Would this cart, with proper wheels, be appropriate for the marathon portion of the course? (or is the wheel base too narrow?)I plan on getting a hyperbike but until I do.......I love this cart, and my boy trucks around in it with no issues. I wish the maker still advertised them (lignite carriage company)


Carolyn, you have a very sweet and willing little guy there if you have been driving him for any length of time in this cart the way it is set up in this picture. Your shafts are quite a way below the point of draft which is putting considerable weight on his back. You also seem to be perching on the edge of your seat rather than sitting back with your back almost but not touching the backrest which would be proper. The wheel base would not be the issue here although it does appear fairly narrow, the way the shafts are attached to the cart would be my major concern in a marathon course. There can be quite a bit of pressure applied to the shafts during a marathon and these ones could easily come off. I have actually had that happen just driving down the road in a cart built similarly that belonged to a client. I don't know what your cart weighs and appearances can be misleading but it looks to be a fairly heavy cart as well and as your little guy IS little



I think he would find it rather heavy going on a cross country course which can often have lots of ups and downs.


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## Carolyn R (Nov 15, 2009)

No,thats my daughter and son just out for a quick ride about 2.5-3 years ago. I know better as far as the shaft placement, It just happens to be one of the clearer photos of the cart itself,





The cart is actually lighter, about 75LBS, but with suitable wheels I would still be looking at a substancial weight. I appreciate the input about the shafts. This is why I am here, to sponge up as much info as I can before I purchase another cart





You all are just giving me more and more leverage in my "argument" of reasons to try out a hyperbike when discussing things with my husband!


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 15, 2009)

Shari, don't we ALL wish for a cart such as you mentioned!! I'm betting that someday, someone will produce one; just not sure how SOON!

I have the 'twin' to Shari's Country Road cart, built my her builder's brother! I completely agree with all she said about it, including its weight, and limitations thereof-as well as it's many 'pluses'! I've not actually used mine a lot, but did find it to be a bit 'weighty' for my 34" and unders on hills and on uneven/softer 'going'...again, I fully accept that MY size is a factor. I keep it because it IS such a comfy ride, and is suitable for turnout--would work for breed or pleasure ring, dressage, or cones. I wouldn't want to use it for marathon. I think water crossings would be hard on it, being wood, and, because it has 'straight' shafts, it just isn't going to be as manueverable under challenging course circumstances as one w/ marathon, or even 'just', gig-type 'gooseneck' shafts, like those on my 'original' Bennington mini cart, IMO.

Carolyn, the Lignite was well-regarded by many; I'd looked at Jim Dingman's website and strongly considered one, myself, a few years back. As far as being suitable for marathon...at Training level, I don't see why not! From what I observed, lots of mini horse drivers start there with the most basic of carts, like the Frontiers and other 'pipe' carts, right down to the pneumatic tires. It is only at the higher levels that 'stricter' requirements come into play, such as no pneumatic wheels/wire spokes(it is considered a safely issue by ADS--such wheels don't withstand side pressures such as may be encountered on marathon/hazard courses, as well, and may 'collapse' or 'fold'...NOT a good thing!)That IS your current cart, right? If so,IMO, I'd say you could CERTAINLY start with it, while you continue to gather info about ALL the other options.

Susanne...so you have a Hyperbike? I have some questions!

What is the 'on-the-ground' track width? Can it be driven(or even rolled, in-hand) through a 4' opening (gate)? I like to be able to drive though my several 'walk-though' gates on occasion, and all are 4" openings. It's my understanding that the Hyperbike is right at/around a 4' (48") track width; this wouldn't work to drive through 4' gates, I don't think! Also, if it IS a 4' track, have you found this to be any sort of a drawback?

Believe me, I WISH I could come up and 'play' with you guys at the beach drive, and/or Happs!! I would love, love, LOVE to, but first, I'd have to have less little 'dependents' here at home! Thanks for the 'invite', though; I will keep it in my heart!

Margo


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## Carolyn R (Nov 15, 2009)

Margo_C-T said:


> Carolyn, the Lignite was well-regarded by many; I'd looked at Jim Dingman's website and strongly considered one, myself, a few years back. As far as being suitable for marathon...at Training level, I don't see why not! From what I observed, lots of mini horse drivers start there with the most basic of carts, like the Frontiers and other 'pipe' carts, right down to the pneumatic tires. It is only at the higher levels that 'stricter' requirements come into play, such as no pneumatic wheels/wire spokes(it is considered a safely issue by ADS--such wheels don't withstand side pressures such as may be encountered on marathon/hazard courses, as well, and may 'collapse' or 'fold'...NOT a good thing!)That IS your current cart, right? If so,IMO, I'd say you could CERTAINLY start with it, while you continue to gather info about ALL the other options.


Yes, I have this cart, I have been through two Grabers (first one I decided I wanted bigger wheels, but it had been manufactured as a closed 20" wheel cart, would not accept larger wheels. Second Graber was ordered through a secondary company, not through Mr. Graber himself, which is what I should have done. Long story short, got a closed wheel 24" cart which made the shafts way too high. Lesson learned, Mr. Grabber is very knowledgable, If I get another Graber, order it directly from him as an open wheeled cart with after market adapters to make it closed wheel. He even said he could set the shafts lower than ave.on the open wheeled cart when requested.

So, since I sold the other cart & If were to buy another cart(s) which I plan to.....

I can buy something like a Graber and a hyperbike or cry as I hand over the cash and buy something like a smartcart and nothing else.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 15, 2009)

Carolyn R said:


> No,thats my daughter and son just out for a quick ride about 2.5-3 years ago. I know better as far as the shaft placement, It just happens to be one of the clearer photos of the cart itself,
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Oh good! I am VERY glad to hear that because your little horse does look like a great little driver and I hate to think of any horse being that uncomfortable for any length of time





I won't help you in your argument for a hyperbike as I considered one myself and upon investigation decided that it was just too dangerous a contraption to make it worthwhile purchasing. Even with the most dependable of horses, stuff happens, and the method of getting seated in a hyperbike could lead to serious trouble in my opinion. You can do things without incident 100 times and then there is that one time.....nope, not for me.


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## susanne (Nov 16, 2009)

Carolyn,

I'm still such an inexperienced driver that I hesitate saying anything...just keep in mind that I'm still a total newbie.

The carts I've drooled over that I consider very close are the ones Margo mentioned (Smart Cart, Bellcrown, Bennington, IteBte, Scotsman, also the Ahonen and PT Cruiser...and I like what I've seen and heard about the Lignite...wish he still made them.

(Someone on LB does CDEs in a Lignite...is it Dr. Pam's daughter?)

The one that comes closest to being my dream cart is the Bellcrown Aerocrown, except that it is made for smaller minis than Mingus. It has a removable basket and stirrups, has heavier duty finish than the Minicrown, and they were talking about having two seats for it.

Margo, I borrowed Daryl's (BigDogsLittleHorses) hyperbike and used it for the 2nd day of Happs VSE Driving Trials Twice. My CTM EE cart took an unplanned exit off the roof rack of our van just days before the event, so he offered his HB and another friend loaned me an older training cart. I nearly came off the latter on level ground (my benchmark for driving discomfort -- a wooden seat, no less!), so I used the HB on the second day.

Lori, Just my opinion, but I find the hyperbike easier to get in and out of than many not-so-easy entry carts, and easier to stay in, when that's what you want.

A lot of people wonder what happens if the horse has to go to the bathroom. I drove Liz's mare, Cherry Bomb, and she let loose with a tidal wave of urine...not a drop landed upon me.

At Happs, for our first creek crossing, we had to descend a rather steep bank, and Mingus decided halfway down to turn to the left, then go back up the bank. For a short time I sat at a rakish 45 degree angle over the creek. In any other cart, I would have been swimming, but the hyperbike kept me secure and balanced. Steep as the bank was, we came nowhere near tipping over. We went back up and approached the creek again, this time with no trouble.

So I'd never suggest that someone drive a cart in which they felt unsafe, but after driving several different minis, all of different sizes, in the HB, I feel safer in it than a cart where I'd have to climb over the seat or high shafts to get out.

According to my notes, the hyperbike wheelbase is 48 inches...I don't know if Bob can do any tweaking on that, but each one is built for the individual horse and driver.


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## suncountryranch (Nov 19, 2009)

Hi...I just posted the reply below in another topic but will repost it here too.

I can tell you that Pacific Carriage does not offer a holiday sale, but it did not hurt to ask!

There is a variety of nicely made carts on the market that are very suitable for CDE,

but I happen to really like the Pacific Smart cart too.

About nine years ago I questioned the company to see if they would make a mini vehicle. At that time

no mini cart was offered by them, and they would not custom make one. As soon as I found out

that the Smart Cart was in production I bought one and became a dealer. I've always loved

the overall quality of the vehicle and it's adjustability. (If you have any questons, I would be happy to

answer them for you.) You can view a variety of different size minis put to the Smart Cart on my website. http://suncountryminis.homestead.com/Smart...otoGallery.html

The first pix are "A" sized minis, and the mini facing away in a lower picture is also an "A" size at about 32".

The others range from 35 to 37". There are also some pictures showing the cart NOT adjusted to the

horse size properly, but it's a great way to _see_ the difference that can be made in setting up the cart!

The best way to find a cart that works for you is to try it. There are so many factors that go into a decision.

What is perfect for one person is terrible for the next. Each of our driving situations can be completely

different....from the terrain we drive on to our own ability to get in and out of the vehicle quickly!

Drive Happy...

Debra Bohnsack

http://suncountryminis.homestead.com


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## Bluerocket (Nov 21, 2009)

We recently purchased a Smart Cart. We have several large A minis (33 - 34") and one large B mini (39") and thought this would be the perfect cart to be able to use for all of them at one time or another. The other cart we were considering was a Bellcrown. However, it would not work for the B mini.

We love the Smart Cart! At the National Drive I had it weighed. With the Marathon shafts and our spares kit (heavy thing) plus some seat flanges - the cart weighed 128 lbs. Some people there thought the scales were running about 6 lb heavy - and we believe the spares kit is about 10 lbs (lots of hardware in it). So the cart with those extras weighs 115 - 120 lbs or so.

We bought the cart for my husband to use. He is 190 lbs and is new to driving.

We currently use it with our 33.75" mini, Platinum who weighs 303 lbs (at least he did at the National Drive on the same scales that we used to weigh the cart).

The cart was professionaly assembled and adjusted specifically for my husband and this mini. When my husband is sitting in the cart and there is no horse attached, and the shafts are level, there is 8 lbs of weight in the shafts.

Here are 2 photos of my husband and Platinum on their first drive with the cart - the day we went to pick it up and try it out (and it was adjusted for them). Please note, our traces were too long to have the shafts adjusted properly - so they are set 3" too long for this horse. We now have the right length traces and have re-adjusted the shafts - I just don't have any good photos of them with it all right.

We love this cart. Platinum does not seem to have any additional difficulty pulling my husband in it with this cart vs the Frontier Easy Entry + Steel wheels that I drive (it weighed 97 lbs on those same scales). I don't think we have ever had the Frontier balanced properly on him with Kim driving.

I will say that I personally believe that it is very important to adjust this cart properly to horse and driver. It is also important to have the harness adjusted correctly. If you do it right, riding in this cart is better than riding in a Cadillac!

Any way - can't say enough great stuff about this cart. No, I am not a dealer -- and our cart is NOT for sale! Saving up the money to buy a 2nd one for me!

I have seen them for sale used. They do come up for sale from time to time.

Again - here are two photos. I think it is cool that in the top photo Platinum has all 4 feet off the ground! Not sure if you will be able to tell from this pic.











Edited to fix photos

JJay


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## Shari (Nov 21, 2009)

Love the Photos. One thing about the Smart Cart I have liked, is the shafts. Think Maggie would be much happier with the marathon shaft ends.


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## moriah (Nov 22, 2009)

Bluerocket said:


> We currently use it with our 33.75" mini, Platinum who weighs 303 lbs (at least he did at the National Drive on the same scales that we used to weigh the cart).
> Here are 2 photos of my husband and Platinum on their first drive with the cart - the day we went to pick it up and try it out (and it was adjusted for them). Please note, our traces were too long to have the shafts adjusted properly - so they are set 3" too long for this horse. We now have the right length traces and have re-adjusted the shafts - I just don't have any good photos of them with it all right.
> 
> Any way - can't say enough great stuff about this cart. No, I am not a dealer -- and our cart is NOT for sale! Saving up the money to buy a 2nd one for me!
> ...


JJay, What kind of breast collar is on Platinum? I like the V shape but havn't found anywhere to get one like this.


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## Minimor (Nov 22, 2009)

moriah--I can't say just what harness is shown in JJay's photos (I was wondering the same thing, and thought it looked a bit like the CDE harness sold by Ozark Mtn. but am not sure that it is) but I can tell you that Ozark Mtn. does sell a V breastcollar with their carriage harness. You can also purchase that V breastcollar separately--which is what I did last year. When I got my carriage harnesses only the straight breast collar was available, so when the V breastcollar became available last year I ordered one. I like it, and will be ordering another one for the other harness next year. I may even be ordering another one in pony size but will wait & see what I buy for a pony harness first.


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## Bluerocket (Nov 22, 2009)

The harness Platinum is wearing is sold by both Camptown Harness and Chimacum Tack. I believe the collar is called an Empathy Collar -- We have purchased one full harness from each vendor. The harness comes in brass or chrome. Both vendors have excellent service and very similar pricing. The harness are made by the same harness maker. This is a synthetic harness. I think there are a few leather parts on it (crown piece and some others) but the rest is betathane. It is extremely well made.

The saddle in these harnesses is also seems very comfortable - it is wide, has a tree and is nicely padded. None of the mini show harnesses that I had previously purchased (and I had 2 very nice ones - now sold) SEEM to be as comfortable to the horse - although they have a more streamlined and elegant look to them.

We love both of the ones we have. Looking to buy a 3rd next year for the B horse.

I can tell you that after changing to this shape breast collar, I will never use a straight one again. It makes a huge difference in the horse's way of going. Frees up the shoulder and the windpipe (especially with a low set neck).

Please note, we do not compete in anything at this time. We pleasure drive only and mostly drive cross country.

I bought this cart as a surprise Birthday, Christmas, Anniversary present for my husband. He had had surgery earlier this year and was just plain uncomfortable riding in either of our other carts on anything other than pavement. With the Smart Cart you can adjust the suspension (air bags no less) for the amount of cushion or bounce that you want. Its a really cushy ride! He won't sit in any other cart now at all.

I chose the marathon shafts and the side flanges for safety and easy of use. Since we go mostly cross country on our drives - bumpy, hilly ground, I wanted to make sure the shafts would not slip out of the tugs - nor get caught on any brush or obstacle (hubby is somewhat of a novice). The side flanges for the seat are extremely adjustable and make there be less room to slide from side to side in the seat. You can remove them totally if you wanted 2 people to sit in the cart. Neither myself nor my husband are small enough people for a 2nd person to ride with us - so that is not really a consideration.

Please note that the marathon shafts require a special tug on your harness - a quick release tug. We also bought quick release snaps to attach the traces to the singletree. The traces we use now (not in these pictures) on this cart are almost 10 inches shorter than the traces we use on the other 2 carts. Have no idea why.

Here is a picture of a Smart Cart standalone showing the seat flanges. You can also get these as part of a wedge seat if that is the kind of seat that you prefer.






Our other two carts are a Pequea wooden easy entry road cart with wooden wheels and a frontier easy entry that we have added steel wheels from driving essentials (I think) and a different singletree. The Pequea fits a skinnier or at least a fit mini best. I like the suspension on it (2 leaf springs) The Frontier is what I use currently as the mini I drive does not fit well in the Pequea. I do like the Frontier myself as well. I believe Silver Penny sells the Pequea cart as well as some other vendors.

Here is a picture of the Pequea from 2006 at our first and only CDE. Platinum and I - before we discovered the empathy collar and synthetic harness. I understand that technically with a russet harness - all the leather and metal on your cart is supposed to be brown.






JJay


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## Bluerocket (Nov 22, 2009)

Here is a picture of the Frontier with the steel wheels, whip holder and new singletree. Not a good picture but you get the idea.


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## Bluerocket (Nov 22, 2009)

Carolyn R said:


> Would this cart, with proper wheels, be appropriate for the marathon portion of the course? (or is the wheel base too narrow?)I plan on getting a hyperbike but until I do.......I love this cart, and my boy trucks around in it with no issues. I wish the maker still advertised them (lignite carriage company)



Hi Carolyn:

Sorry to be posting so much on your thread --- wanted to address your question. Have studied this picture - I don't think the wheels are the problem -- as they appear to be quite large for a mini cart.

The axle looks to be in the middle of the cart and I believe that on most mini carts the whole basket/seat/suspension configuration sits on TOP of the axle. Is there a way you could move the location of the axle attachment to under the cart? or lower down (to raise up basket, seat and shafts)? Maybe sitting on top of the axle would be too high - or easily toppled over. What is the wheel base of the vehicle?

It sure is CUTE though and looks plenty sturdy enough. I have never seen a picture of a lignite before.

You also might want to adjust the seat (it looks like it is adjustable) to however it fits you with your back against the backrest and feet able to brace on the floor/basket. As you mentioned you are not the one in the cart in the phot.

With those changes you might find that cart ok for CDE - at least at training level.

If you look at my Frontier cart picture above -- those 2 steel wheels are 30 lbs of the 97 lbs the entire cart weighs.

Can you see in my Pequea and Frontier photos how those carts sit on top of the axle? vs how yours is setup?

Don't know if this helps you or not. Heck - don't really even know if that would fix the height situation either.

JJay


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## Minxiesmom (Nov 22, 2009)

JJay,

A question about your steel wheels. It looks like these are the 24". What are your thoughts on using 30" wheels vs 24" wheels? I have 30" wooden wheels for my Jerald that I have used for an HDT and country driving and I like them. I want to put steel wheels on my EE pipe like your Frontier. It doesn't look like they have any sort of rubber on them? Is it needed?



Bluerocket said:


> Here is a picture of the Frontier with the steel wheels, whip holder and new singletree. Not a good picture but you get the idea.


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 22, 2009)

I'm not JJay, but I can tell you that yes, there IS rubber on those wheels. It is a hard rubber insert, probably 'square'(they also come in 'half round'). It would rattle your TEETH out, and be extremely noisy, among other things, to have only bare metal; it just about 'isn't done' nowadays, on ANY vehicles!

I believe it is 'generally' accepted that a larger diameter wheel will roll a bit more easily, other things being equal. However, it is always a 'trade-off' between that 'benefit', and the added weight of a larger diameter wheel, esp. with minis-at least in my opinion and experience. My wooden wheels for my Jerald "model A" were their original, 30", 16 spoke wheels, and they added CONSIDERABLE weight--I ended up using them very little mostly for that reason. Jerald later switched to a 12 spoke wheel, in both 24 and 30" diameters, helping with the weight issue.

Margo


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## REO (Nov 22, 2009)

Great pics JJay!



Very nice to see you here and I enjoyed your posts!


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## moriah (Nov 22, 2009)

JJay,

Thanks so muh for the info. on the breastcollars.

And one more question:

I currently have a Smartcart but not with the marathon shafts. We haven't used the cart yet. Can you also tell me more about the quick release traces and snaps that you mentioned in your posts? How do they work? Thanks again for the information!



Bluerocket said:


> The harness Platinum is wearing is sold by both Camptown Harness and Chimacum Tack. I believe the collar is called an Empathy Collar -- We have purchased one full harness from each vendor. The harness comes in brass or chrome. Both vendors have excellent service and very similar pricing. The harness are made by the same harness maker. This is a synthetic harness. I think there are a few leather parts on it (crown piece and some others) but the rest is betathane. It is extremely well made.
> The saddle in these harnesses is also seems very comfortable - it is wide, has a tree and is nicely padded. None of the mini show harnesses that I had previously purchased (and I had 2 very nice ones - now sold) SEEM to be as comfortable to the horse - although they have a more streamlined and elegant look to them.
> 
> We love both of the ones we have. Looking to buy a 3rd next year for the B horse.
> ...


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## RhineStone (Nov 22, 2009)

JJay, are you sure that's not a Freedom Collar from Camptown? The Empathy is by Zilco. They both are designed with the same purpose, to give freedom of movement and let the mini breathe at the same time. My gelding loves my FC, as I think his windpipe is tied in to his neck below the points of his shoulders! We borrowed an Empathy for our big horse, and he loved it, so we bought a FC for him, because the Empathy doesn't come in brass to match the rest of our harnesses. At least not that I found.


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 22, 2009)

Yes, the Empathy is Zilco's 'W-shaped' collar(that's MY term for it, as it looks a bit like a W), and from what I've heard and read, they were the first to make one shaped like that. However, Zilco apparently doesn't make one that is truly small enough for minis-A sized ones, at least--so Camptown adapted the idea and now both Camptown and Chimicum offer it in sizes suitable to minis, as well as in larger sizes, I think. Camptown calls it the "Freedom" collar; not sure what Chimicum calls it, but I understand it is very similar if not identical, and is reportedly made by the same Amish maker. Seems many people who have them LOVE them!

I have a 'deep V" breast collar made by The Carriage House in FL which I like; it just isn't quite as 'extreme' a shape as the others mentioned here-and I think other harness makers also offer similar styles...but the 'Empathy' and 'Freedom' have become very popular; many users like them.

Margo


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## suncountryranch (Nov 23, 2009)

Hi JJay....the pictures look just great! Your husband looks like he is really enjoying himself, and your

horse looks very happy and relaxed. Would you mind if I added them to the Photo Gallery page

on my website? (since you ordered from me) I'm trying to show all different horse sizes and cart options

on that page for people to see what is available.

Debra Bohnsack

Sun Country Ranch

Pacific Carriages

JJay wrote:Here are 2 photos of my husband and Platinum on their first drive with the cart - the day we went to pick it up and try it out (and it was adjusted for them).


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## Bluerocket (Nov 26, 2009)

Sorry folk I don't logon much these days.

Yes those are the Freedom Collars from Camptown and Chimacum. I don't know why I call them empathy collars. My mistake.

About the quik release snaps they go on the single tree and the traces. They are about $75 depending on where you buy them. Nice if you need to detach traces in a hurry and can't relieve the pressure on the traces any other way. The other quik releases are related to the tugs. You have to special order them for your harness. The marathon shafts are made in a "circle" shape sort of - so you can't thread them through the regular tugs. The quick release tugs - well I just need to take pictures to show you- coz I don't think I can correctly describe them. Will try to take pics tomorrow and upload to show you exactly what is what.

The wheels are 26" I believe. Not positive as we have both 26" and 28" wheels. There is a rubber tread on them. The wheel and tread is wide like the pneumatic tires. Wider is better if you want to drive in loose footing like sand rings - and nice on the trail as well.

Thanks for all the compliments. Suncountry (Debra) you are welcome to take the photos off our website if you like. You know how/where we got our cart that we love so much. We hope to buy a 2nd one next year and will send photos of our larger mini when he is hitched, fit and going well.

Thanks to all and Happy Thanksgiving

JJay


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## sfmini (Nov 28, 2009)

I bought a Smart Cart and was just thrilled with finally having legroom. My Frontier cart just kills my knees to the point that driving is no fun. The first time I hooked to it was great, took it to Equine affair to use in the breed demo and it was an embarrasing disaster! Sank down in the footing and my poor guy really had to dig in to make one pass and I slunk out of the ring wanting to crawl in a hole. Haven't touched it since. Haven't driven more than twice since then. Yes, I make Margo look like Twiggy, but have never had that kind of trouble before. I may take it to a rail trail next year and see how that goes and if that doesn't go well I will have to get rid of it.

I do have a freedom collar and I do love it.


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## Minxiesmom (Nov 28, 2009)

Jody,

I know how devistating it can be to have the footing so deep our poor little guys can't pull through it! I fight this all the time with our Pinto shows all over the state! At one show this summer they had a 3-5 yr old driving futurity. There were three horses in it. Unfortunately all three were smaller, 31-32". It was embarrassing to watch! Those little guys had to hunch down like plow horses to just go down the rail! The comments that people made were horrible! None of the big horse people understood, it was all because of the depth of the footing. Same horses with the packed footing would have flown around the arena effortlessly.

Something to think about...I haven't done it yet, but many people have...Could you have your horse fitted with a collar and hames with a dropped singletree. If you don't show, this setup is much easier for the horse to pull. I think you would love your Smart Cart with this type of harness. If not, I will take your cart!!!! LOL!!!


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## Bluerocket (Nov 28, 2009)

Here are the promised pictures of the quik release tugs and the quik release snaps for the traces.

Please note that I don't consider myself to be an expert on the proper use of these tugs and quik release snaps on the traces. It is my understanding that this is the correct way to use these. If someone else really is an expert, please chime in and please correct me where I am wrong!

First the tugs. The marathon shaft ends are a solid loop. You have to open the tugs to put them through the shaft loop and hook them back again.






















Here are the quik release snaps and the traces.

You can see from the pictures that my singletree has both loops and hooks. Also my traces have both slotted ends and rings.

I believe that the permanent part of the quik release snap attaches to the singletree to the metal loop that is specifically on this cart to use them. The open portion of the snap can be run through either the slotted end of the trace or the ring end depending on what you have on your harness. I also believe I read that the quik release string was to go to the outside. It is possible that I remember that part backwards. It is a very sunny day today so I hope the reflection on the snap does not ruin the picture.

If you have slotted traces you would hook up like this






If you have ring end traces you use the quik release snaps like this.






JJay


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## Minimor (Nov 29, 2009)

Jody, I wouldn't blame the cart because the footing was so deep. I've seen horses bog down with show carts or EE carts in that sort of footing too. Also--I haven't done a comparison but I think when it comes to deep footing the steel wheels are much like the wooden ones--much harder to pull than the pneumatic tires.

Take your cart out on the trails & I think you will love it again!


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 29, 2009)

There's a good bit of anecdotal evidence that pneumatic tires are easier to pull than either steel or wooden ones w/ the solid rubber inserts, under practically all circumstances. That, and the relatively lower cost, is likely why pretty much ALL 'basic' carts,esp. for minis, have pneumatic tires (along w/ the fact that the pneumatics themselves provide some degree of 'cushion' for the ride.)

Jody, I LOVED your comment about making me look like Twiggy--it gave me a great chuckle! However, your point is very salient....IMO, heavy ground is one of the BIGGEST issues facing mini drivers ANYTIME they go outside a 'breed-specific' venue(and sometimes, even then, for many just don't understand how to prepare a ring/arena for mini driving, even when you explain it carefully!) What irks me is that a ring 'can' certainly be prepared firm enough for minis, and it WON'T HURT other drivers/sizes of horses! But too often, other drivers don't realize that, and may argue against preparing a firm ring that will be suitable for minis! I have run into this so many times that I am VERY leery of entering 'open' competitions, period, or even clinics, etc.

Several years ago, I was entered in the Open Driving at our State Fair. I walked the arena early AM on my class day, and it was fine for a mini. When class time came, it was still OK ON THE RAIL, but because they'd (unthinkingly!)held the mule barrels and poles earlier, and for some unknown reason, the arena prep guy had raced in TWICE during only about 6-8 barrel racers, and even less pole benders, and vigorously 'worked' the center of the ring, when it came time to line up and back, that ground was SO deep that my horse couldn't even get the cart to MOVE, scaring him to the point of a small rear before I quit asking him to do it(and this, WITH breeching). Very upset, I wrote to the Horse Show Manager after the Fair, and thankfully, the next year,they rescheduled the timed events to the end of the day (DUH!!!)...but of course, that didn't undo the harm done to my sensitive little horse; he was for quite a time, very nervous about being asked to back.

What you speak of is IMO a VERY concerning issue for miniature drivers. AND, it is a big reason why I continue to seek a GOOD, but very LIGHTWEIGHT, cart!

Margo


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## susanne (Nov 29, 2009)

Holly,

I have a question regarding the Ozark V-shaped breast collar...

I notice that their version has just the single neck hanger. The engineer's daughter in me says that the shape of a deep V would put pressure both on the chest and up over the neck -- as would a soft Eurocollar. As it is, I'd like to see more substance in the neck hanger on the Freedom collar.

Then again, this is purely speculative, as I've never driven with any curved breast collar. Perhaps I'm just nuts, but from appearances, it would seem that the Ozark deep V would put a lot of pressure on a single strap.

Reading that you're very pleased with the Ozark deep-V, I'm wondering if perhaps I'm all wet...


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## Minxiesmom (Nov 29, 2009)

Great discussions going on this thread. A wonderful learning opportunity for the new drivers and also for the experienced.

I have been following a thread on the "Clicker Driving" forum where Barb Lee is active. She was just discussing the Euro collar "Fitting the Euro is just as troublesome as fitting a neck collar and I truly believe, given the position of the trace attachment over the highly mobile lower end of the shoulder blade as a rule, there is just no mechanical advantage to them."

As far as the "Freedom Collar" mine has a very wide piece that goes over the neck with two buckles on each side. Pretty substantial. I haven't seen the Ozark Deep V, except in the catalog, but have to agree with Susanne that it would put pressure on the neck strap, but probably no more than a regular breast collar as long as it has horizontal draft. This is good experience for me to think about how these things actually work! If I am looking at it wrong, please, let's discuss!


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## Minimor (Nov 29, 2009)

Susanne--I haven't found that the V breastcollar puts a lot of pressure on the horse's neck. Granted I don't drive in heavy going but I do drive "off road" where the ground isn't perfectly smooth.

Actually, I don't know as I would call the Ozark breastcollar a "deep" V--I don't think it's as deep as, for example, the Camptown harness in JJay's photo (now I need to go and look again to be sure!)--but it does have enough shape to it that it fits better over the point of shoulder/under the windpipe.

I had big horse harnesses with a very similar shaped breastcollar & a single neckstrap, and even when pulling the cutter (which was considerably heavier than pulling a cart anywhere that I drive) there was not all that much pressure on the neck strap.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 29, 2009)

I use the Ozark V collar and I really like it. I do drive in heavy going at times and some very hilly country and I am very pleased with the V collar's fit and performance. It isn't as deeply V'd as the Camptown collar. I use a hold back to bring the carrier strap over the waterhook to take any pressure off the horse's neck and I do find that is necessary but I do that with most any horizontal draft collar, V'd or straight, on most horses. I use the end piece of the totally useless (to me anyway



) overcheck that comes with the Ozark carriage harness. I have looked at the Freedom collar and considered it but the way it comes over the shoulder blade has always concerned me so I have been waiting till I saw personally a Mini in harness using it and could get a better feel for it.


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## susanne (Nov 29, 2009)

Okay...I just went to look again at the Ozark site, and I can see where the line of draft is more horizontal than the Freedom Collar -- more like to pull straight through from the chest through traces. I still think I'd be happier with a double strap, but my worries are not based upon any great experience, of course.

I've seen that the Freedom Collar does have that wide piece, but it still seems to me that it could go a step further and create a really nice blend of breast collar and neck collar. (But you've alerted me to the Clicker Driving forum -- yikes!! One I haven't seen!)


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 30, 2009)

I just got my first copy of "Driving Digest", and while I can't seem to find it just at this moment???, I was struck by an ad that showed something that looked to me like a cross between a Eurocollar, and the 'soft' modified neck collar that Breanna (MiniHGal here) often uses, and which was custom made for her by a mini breeder/owner/ driver in CA. I wondered how well it would work?(Of course, odds are it isn't made in 'mini' sizes, so may be a moot question!

I like the concept of the Freedom collar, but do have some concerns about fit for my particular needs. I have a 'deep V' breast collar, so named by the seller, The Carriage House in FL, that I am quite happy with, and use for my larger mini. It has 'floating' trace buckles, so accomodates a higher OR lower draft, in what I believe is a way similar to that of the Freedom collar. It also has a substantial 'double' neck strap. It just isn't as 'extreme' in shape as the Empathy or the Freedom collar.

I have one A mini who is very narrow-fronted, with prominent points of his shoulders, and while I'd like to do all I can to make pulling easy for him, I am afraid a Freedom collar might just 'swallow' him. For my other most-frequently driven A mini, I even got a neck collar, carefully measuring him for proper size, but I can't tell that it made any difference at ALL in his pulling ability--and wonder if it was worth the effort and expense(although now, a neck collar AND hames are notably less expensive than a Freedom collar!)

Am really just mentioning all this by way of 'food' for discussion....so what do some of you with experience with these items, esp. in serious cross-country/uneven terrain driving, and/or with horses of varying builds, think?

And, a question--do the Freedom collars INCLUDE a holdback that can be used to connect the neck strap to the water hook?

Margo


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## Carolyn R (Nov 30, 2009)

Ozarks v breast collar is not extremely deep. I personally purchased it because it was enough of a dip to prevent interferance with the windpipe, but wasn't so over the top with heay duty straps that it distracted the appearance when used with my Graber in the ring. No, it isn't an elegant, fine, streamlined, petite breast collar, but it doesn't scream "cloddhopper in the show ring" either. For one wishing to get their feet a bit more wet in both worlds, without spending thousands in harnesses, it was a good compromise.


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## Minxiesmom (Nov 30, 2009)

Margo asked:

"And, a question--do the Freedom collars INCLUDE a holdback that can be used to connect the neck strap to the water hook?"

There is a strap, but it doesn't easily attach to the water hook. I have to mickey mouse it to attach. When it warms up here a little, maybe tomorrow, I will put the Freedom Collar on Max and take pictures of it.

I like the way it distributes the weight that he is pulling, across a wider area on his chest, compared to his show breast collar. It totally comes up over the point of his shoulder and allows more freedom of movement from what I can observe. He is so stoic that he never shows me if it feels better than the other one, but it looks like it should.


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## RhineStone (Nov 30, 2009)

I LOVE my Freedom Collar. I have not found it to put any more pressure on the neck than any other breastcollar with a horizontal draft. I have found that with the point of the shoulder below the collar the way it is supposed to be, my gelding can move SO much better. (I had a judge from England make the same comment after I had used first the straight breastcollar for Turnout, and then the FC for Working Pleasure.) And since his windpipe attachment is so low, he can breathe SO much better than in a straight breastcollar. I have not used it a lot on my little mini mare, but we don't have her pull a lot of weight, either.

I don't use the strap that attaches to the water hook. I don't think I need it on my gelding.

We bought a FC for our Pinto Arab gelding recently, and the first time he took a step being put to the vehicle, he stopped and hesitated, because he was so used to the pressure across his shoulder when he took a step. When he finally got going, he "paraded" around like he had never felt such freedom! I'm not kidding! Properly adjusted, they are awesome!

My bigger concern with a full collar and hames is the weight of the whole thing on their neck. Maybe somebody makes lighter hames than I have seen. We used the collar/hames on the pair, and they did fine, but it seemed "overwhelming" visually.

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Nov 30, 2009)

In regards to arena surface depth, the carriage shows around here tend to be on grass if possible. All the drivers love grass (except when wet or extremely dry and slippery), because they all realize that any drag on the carriage horses are going to make them pull harder and not look as "free". I know of a draft cross mare that actually loses bending ability when she has to show in a "deep" arena. We attend a CDE where the dressage arena is made of stone dust. Our mini gelding loved that.

We went to three shows this year that had a "riding horse" surface, and I tried my best to navigate the arenas to find the best surface for him. Most of the time, those surfaces deteriorate the more the day goes on. We have decided that we will not exhibit a mini at a deep surface show unless they have a VSE division where it is "level" for all the minis. It is too easy for the judge to "fault" the minis on not being able to pull as well as a bigger horse or pony in a deep arena.

In terms of backing in a deep surface, I have actually reached down and pulled a wheel backwards to help our minis rein back (open wheels, no fenders). Another trick is to make sure that you are backing in the same tracks as you came into line up, or "rock" the horse/vehicle a little before the judge gets to you for inspection. This packs the dirt and makes it a little easier. Also, make sure you are not backing "uphill".


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## Peggy Porter (Dec 1, 2009)

Here's a good photo of me and Butch Cassidy from the National Drive 2009 (note the raingear and the sweatshirt...it was COLD!!) showing the Camptown Freedom Collar. Yes, it does have a double buckle neck strap with a wide piece at the top of the neck. Yes it does have a strap to attach it to the waterhook. The false martingale shown here is not the one that came with the FC (that one was at home attached to the other horse's girth! OOOPS!) and is actually too long (loose). I like the adjustable angle of draft that the FC gives the traces; this cart (Itebte) has a pretty low singletree. A straight breastcollar with standard trace buckles puts waaay too much pressure on the neckstrap. My other VSE has a different build; his neck ties in much lower and the FC really frees up his shoulder and lets him move out much better. The harness is a betathane from Iowa Valley Carriage; the trace carriers are actually beta curb straps. We are on a slight incline in this photo, so the traces are not taut and the breeching is engaged to hold the cart back.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 5, 2009)

Minxiesmom said:


> There is a strap, but it doesn't easily attach to the water hook. I have to mickey mouse it to attach. When it warms up here a little, maybe tomorrow, I will put the Freedom Collar on Max and take pictures of it.


I haven't had any problems with slipping mine on, but I do wish the design was a bit less obtrusive. I suspect Kody needs it as he's so low-headed (although I'll admit I haven't actually tried driving without it) but with his prominent withers and low neck-set the strap is pretty obvious in photos.



Peggy P said:


> A straight breastcollar with standard trace buckles puts waaay too much pressure on the neckstrap.


And worse, it stretches the stitching on the neck strap as it isn't meant to be pulled downwards at an angle like that. Nope, straight breastcollars with lower draft vehicles are a bad idea!

Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 5, 2009)

Margo_C-T said:


> I have one A mini who is very narrow-fronted, with prominent points of his shoulders, and while I'd like to do all I can to make pulling easy for him, I am afraid a Freedom collar might just 'swallow' him.
> ...Am really just mentioning all this by way of 'food' for discussion....so what do some of you with experience with these items, esp. in serious cross-country/uneven terrain driving, and/or with horses of varying builds, think?


When I was talking to Marjean at the National Drive this year she told me they have a new, shorter version of the Freedom Collar available now for smaller minis. I think that's great as Kody is one of the ones for whom the back of the FC very nearly interfers with the saddle and this would solve that problem without changing anything else. Something to think about! The shape is exactly the same, it's just 2" shorter behind the tug.

Leia


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## Tock's Minis (Dec 19, 2009)

What kind of cart are you driving?


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## Peggy Porter (Dec 20, 2009)

It's custom made by Mike Groose of Missouri; his business is called Itebte Buggys. Last I heard, he had some health issues and was not making carts at this time. Do a Google search and you'll get his contact info. (We can't post links on this message board.)


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## Carriage (Dec 20, 2009)

Specific to arena driving and lightweight carts, we had a customer once that said she planned to do almost all her driving on the "dike" near her house. After a short while I got a call saying the cart was too rough for her and could I put a spring on to smooth out the ride.

I was perplexed as the cart should have been ideal for her stated driving area and we were using large pneumatics.

It was then that I found out that she needed to drive in an arena as well. Also that the arena was rarely drug or smoothed out because it was primarily used by riding horses (so whats the need?).

I readily agreed to come up to Happs and install the spring and other tweakings for her but also told her:

"You are taking an ultra light cart and putting it in one of the most abusive and rough terrains possible, yes it will be rough".

The trade-off between light and rough and heavy and rough is that the horse will generally have an easier time pulling the lighter cart however any gain in this area is given away in the amount of transmitted shock to, first the horse and then, the driver. Also the lighter package , driver and cart wise, will realize more shock than a heavier cart in general. A lighter cart is (imo) not the answer to this particular set of givens. I think one could achieve more with tire flotation and the obvious...... drag the areana

Givens are givens and physics is physics so my answer to rough ground is go real fast to smooth everything out. Fast is more fun anyway....

Merry Christmas,

Bb


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 20, 2009)

Peggy P said:


> It's custom made by Mike Groose of Missouri; his business is called Itebte Buggys. Last I heard, he had some health issues and was not making carts at this time. Do a Google search and you'll get his contact info. (We can't post links on this message board.)


You can post links Peggy, just not ones to other interactive miniature horse sites and saleboards. Here is the rule as taken from the Rules and Etiquette page.








> Posts directing LB traffic to other online auctions, sale boards. forums, and/or interactive Miniature horse sites without permission/agreement will also be removed. Second offence of this violation may result in being banned from further use of the LB Miniature Horse Forums/Sale Boards/LB-LC Auction and other public places on the LilBeginnings.com web site.


Leia


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## Sandee (Dec 26, 2009)

I see the references to a Lignite cart and thought you might like to see one. He changed his design about a year after he made this one for me. He was calling this his easy entry and my guess is someone pointed out that it wasn't EASY to enter! It is well balanced though and works nicely with the bigger A horses. This was taken at a show where I had to drive the same class as my daughter and her horse was only 32" so she got the Graber show cart.


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## Shari (Dec 26, 2009)

All I can say about the Freedom Collar is... Maggie loves it and she doesn't like the straight ones any more. She lets me know. Sigh ~~ She pulls much easier with the Freedom Collar compared with a standard straight one.

The rest of my Harness is Zilco. Their empathy collar works only with carts with a low line a draft and they are not really made small enough for many mini's. Had a long talk with the lady I bought my CRC from. Did lots of research before I bought the Freedom collar.


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## My2Minis (Dec 28, 2009)

Shari said:


> All I can say about the Freedom Collar is... Maggie loves it and she doesn't like the straight ones any more. She lets me know. Sigh ~~ She pulls much easier with the Freedom Collar compared with a standard straight one.
> The rest of my Harness is Zilco. Their empathy collar works only with carts with a low line a draft and they are not really made small enough for many mini's. Had a long talk with the lady I bought my CRC from. Did lots of research before I bought the Freedom collar.


I have a Freedom Collar, too and both horses like it.


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