# how early is too early?



## cilla (Mar 21, 2013)

Hi again hope ye dont get fed up with my silly questions. How early can a mare foal when it is ok and the foal is fully formed or what would be called a premature foal. I have a mare who is at 295 days if she went soon would the foal be ok. Also can somone explain what a dummy foal is? Thanks i find all the advice great.


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## Eagle (Mar 21, 2013)

No question is a silly question here so don't worry about asking, that is what we are here for.

I thinkMary has had a live foal at around 303 days but she will confirm when she reads. This was talked about last year, I will post the link for you.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=128151

A dummy foal is what foals with lack of oxygen at the birth are called, here is an excellent link

http://www.equinews.com/article/dummy-foals


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Mar 21, 2013)

We have had several in the early 300s that are healthy happy foals, our first foal this year is a filly at 303 days. They are a bit weaker when this early, generally down more in the legs, might take a bit more to nurse and everything, but with proper attention and excersise (once they are nursing well) they turn out just fine. We generally give ours some colostrum by syringe just to give them a boost until they get all the nursing figured out, the excersise later is to help strengthen their legs if they are weak. I am pretty sure some people on here have had viable foals in the 290s but that would make me a bit nervous, I always figure 300 days as the "safe zone", not saying its not possible to have a live healthy foal before then but more rare.


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## targetsmom (Mar 21, 2013)

Those who remember Max, he was born at 303 days, fully developed and (other than having a leg back) had no issues at all at birth. We also had one born at 299 days that didn't get out of the sac but was fully formed and the necropsy report said he was fully developed. I think I have read on here of foals surviving as early as 285 days, but many people use 300 days as the time to watch closely, bring into foaling stall and heave a slight sigh of relief that they got that far. I move that up a few days based on our experience and am relaxing just a tiny bit myself as one mare hit 300 days yesterday and the other one hits 300 days on Saturday. It sounds like your mare was bred about the same time as ours, so I would be watching her closely but feeling relief that if she foaled at this point she could have a fully formed, healthy foal. Keep us posted!


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## chandab (Mar 21, 2013)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> Some vet articles I've read say that any foal born at less than 320 days gestation are considered premature. Guess they had to have a "target date" to go by. But, as Mary said, some babies are fully developed and ready before that magic "number of days".


I'm guessing that the 320 days mostly refers to full-size horses; we all know that minis don't follow the book nor any vet articles out there.


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## Gone_Riding (Mar 21, 2013)

I can't wait! My sister-in-law is in school at WSU to be a vet, and she is a HUGE mini fan and has one herself. She wants to work a lot with the minis but unfortunately, Diane is right! Most vets don't handle minis if at all. The best vet "near me" that has real mini experience is over 50 miles away. Here, the vets are all farm or small animal vets. It's frustrating.

Cilla, I love your "silly questions"! I wonder the same things as I'm new to the whole "pregnant mini" adventure. To top it off, I started with a maiden. I'm learning "Sadie is as Sadie does". In other words, Chanda is right. Minis do their own thing!


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## chandab (Mar 21, 2013)

At least since there are a few sheep raisers around here, the vets do have a limited inventory of smaller supplies, so that helps a little bit.

I work with two vets, one each in two different towns; I'm 50 miles from one vet and 60 from the other, so not matter what I do, its not cheap (oh, and in case you were wondering, I'm 40 miles from the closest town, and you couldn't pay me to use that vet again). And, since they both opened up, my horses have decided they should meet the vets and get to know them; both vets have been here at least once a year for the horses since they opened their practices (one new practice, the other took over my previous vet's practice). [One of the vets is also the one hubby uses for cattle work, so preg-checking, bangs vaccinating, c-sections, and I'm sure something new might come up.]


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## AnnaC (Mar 22, 2013)

Yes, I always count 300 as the 'huge sigh' date to aim for, plus this is when we aim to start stabling our mares at night. But I have had 2 full term foals born in the mid to end of the 290's, both foals were fine, drinking etc, but they were a little skinny and weak in the legs for a couple of days. Plenty of 'drinkies' and the opportunity to exercise those legs and they were soon up on par with the foals nearer the 320 day mark.


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## cilla (Mar 22, 2013)

Thanks a mill for all the info. I have my mare oreo under camara and am keeping both eyes on her. She is huge and her bump is all under her now. She cant relax at all and is up and down all night she doesnt have a huge bag yet so she may go another while. Cant seam to put photos as i was my phone. Put will keep ye posted


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## Eagle (Mar 22, 2013)

Sending prayers for a safe and easy foaling.


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## cilla (Mar 23, 2013)

Oreos foal doing a tap dance inside of mum this evening. I have never felt such movement before. Makes it all so real. Isnt it the best feeling ever. Sorry but i am so delighted by it .


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## lexischase (Mar 23, 2013)

Feeling the foal kick is the best feeling!!


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## Eagle (Mar 23, 2013)

Yes I agree, it always gets me excited too


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## cilla (Apr 13, 2013)

Hi still watching oreo she is day 319 now. She has a grand bag now. This evening a nipples are gone shiny and slippy to touch. She isnt waxed up. Has anyone seen this before.


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## Eagle (Apr 13, 2013)

Sounds like she is very close, a shiny warm bag is a sign they are ready. Can we see some pics please?



sending prayers for a safe foaling


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## AnnaC (Apr 13, 2013)

Oooooo sounds exciting. Now is the time to be camping out right next to her stall (or in it if she doesn't mind!)!!

Good luck and safe foaling.


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## cilla (Apr 13, 2013)

Cant seam to put up photos not from the lack of trying i use my phone and dont have great internet.. Thats what living in the middle of nowhere has to offer. This is oreos first foal and i am so worried about her. This time last year i had my first mini foal and i lost both mare and foal. I will never forget it. I think i must be mad to go through this again.i am so afraid it will all go wrong again.


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## Eagle (Apr 13, 2013)

If you can email the pics to me I can post them for you.

[email protected]

I am so sorry to hear that you lost both your mare and foal,



that must have been devastating. Do you have a vet near you that you can call if you need help? Make sure you watch the videos of red sac births so you know what to do if that should happen and read all about the possible dystocias. Being fully prepared is a must with every mini birth but even more with a maiden.

It is important to check on her throughout the night and as Anna suggested it is just easier to pull up a chair outside her stall.

Feel free to ask any question that pops into your head, we are here to help


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## cilla (Apr 13, 2013)

Thank you so much i have a camra on oreo and my vet is great.. It will be one year tommoro that i lost ivy. She was the first mini i brought. Only found out she was in foal after i got her. Was so looking foreward to the foal. I slept in the stall with her for the last week or so. She started to foal at 6.30 april14. The foal got stuck at the shoulders . The vet was out ten min after i called him but foal was dead it failed him to move the foal and he had to use a calving jack to get her out. The foal was huge half the size of ivy herself. Found out after she was left run with a welsh stallion. Ivy was only 30 inchs. She never got up after foaling vet tryed so hard to save her but she went to join her little filly a few hours later. Tommorow we are going to plant a tree in her meomory. My two mares this year are in foal to my own 30 inch stallion. Oreo is 40 inchs so i really hope huge foals wont be a problem this year. It is great to have somewhere to voice my fears.


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## Eagle (Apr 13, 2013)

Thank you for sharing them with us (hug)

It sounds like you have a perfect set up with the cam on her. I am sure all will be just fine this year with your small stallion.


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##  (Apr 14, 2013)

So sorry you had a bad experience the first time. Sometimes, I don't know what people are thinking about when breeding the "tinnies" to tall stallions. It's find to breed a tall mare to a small stallion, but the reverse is not good when you go too many inches higher, IMO.

I'm sure all will be fine with your little one. I bought a mare pregnant a few years ago that wasn't even 28" tall -- and I found out later the stallion was 34-35" that was NOT a nicely refined stallion -- but a "big lug" !! It was 3 hours before we could get that dead little foal out -- and almost lost momma -- but she was an "ornery" girl with a severe will to live -- and she did! But I've lost more than one mare in foaling -- and it's always a very hard thing to move by.

Looking forward to this ltitle one -- and very excited!! Remember, if you think of any questions you have, just ask away! We're here for you!


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## AnnaC (Apr 14, 2013)

So sorry to read that you lost your little Ivy. I had a similar situation many years ago with a small mini I purchased from a market because I felt sorry for her and as she was offered with the stallion who was with her (at lest 8 inches bigger than her and a heavyweight - he was sold spearately) I was suspicious that she might be in trouble foaling. She was. The foal was too big and even with her sedated there was no way he was going to even get into the birth canal. So I had my vet give her another injection and we sent her on her way to Rainbow Bridge. Bless her, she was such a sweet little girl and I still think of her often.

I'm sure your little ones will be fine to your small boy and cant wait to see what he produces for you.


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## cilla (Apr 15, 2013)

Hi oreo still keeping us waiting and worried!! Her bag is full all the time now and nipples are pointing down and parted. All these signs i have learned on here. Thanks guys. I have learned so much. She is now standing up most of the night if she does lay down she is up again in a few min. And back standing in her corner. She seams very tired and moody. Is this normal is there a reason or is it than she cant get comfey when she us down?


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## AnnaC (Apr 15, 2013)

Are you able to camp out with her from now on (if you arn't already)? With a full tight udder 24 hours day and the teats pointing down, she is obviously getting very close. Her final sign might be when her teats suddenly look filled/swollen.

A lot of mares dont lay down as they get close to foaling, some will happily lay sternal for varying lengths of time and others will lay flat out, dreaming happily, they are all different! I am very lucky in that my situation lets me deep litter my horses on good quality straw. This means that from approx a month before their due dates when they all start living in at night, we deep litter the straw. We start with a really deep bed of fresh straw and stamp it down until is around 9" thick/solid when we are standing on it. From then on a generous amount of straw is added daily so the beds end up around 12"+ deep/thick by the time the mares foal. ALL droppings are picked up by hand as soon as they are deposited throughout the day, if the mare is in/with her foal, and throughtout the night as well. Any urine soaks through to floor level and the top layers of the bed always stay dry. The consequence of all this bedding is that all my mares, without exception, will lay down flat out happily for fong periods during the night and I'm sure this is because the 'round' of their tummies sinks into the bedding leaving their spines and heads comfortably in a straight line - mares who try laying flat out in a field or a stall without a thick floor covering, will find that their heads are lower due to the size of their tummies, and as they are not keen on this, I think they return to the sternal position quite quickly or get up only to try laying down again later.

Of course this is just my opinion, and it also means that we are faced with the mamoth task of mucking out the deep litter, but it is only once year for those foaling stables. I do keep my other horses on a similar system, and usually do a clear out for them every couple of months or so. It just suits me to do it this way and they all love their big comfy beds. LOL!!

Sending prayers for a safe foaling and a gorgeous healthy baby.


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##  (Apr 15, 2013)

DITTO all of that Anna!!! I so LOVE your foaling stalls!!


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## Eagle (Apr 16, 2013)

ditto too


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## Gone_Riding (Apr 16, 2013)

Anna: Wow, 12"! That's wonderful! It's good to know that I could do that. I've been stripping down the straw weekly down to nothing and trying to build it back up again, but it hasn't been getting very deep at all doing it that way... I'm going to try that!
 




Cilla: My only experience with foaling was a QH that had too big of a foal. The vet had to cut it out to save the mare, then I had to sell the mare to pay the vet bill. "Once bit, twice shy..." I finally took a chance with my mini last year when breeding her. I bred her to a stud that was 6-7" shorter than her to be on the safe side, but I still get so worried. I'm driving my hubby insane... It must have been so horrible to lose both of them. I still terribly miss my mare and think of her baby often. He was born on April 27, 2003. Or shall I say died, as he never took a breath. I still remember, and i never wrote it down.

I pray we both have no problems with the deliveries of our babies this month!!


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## cilla (Apr 16, 2013)

Once you have a bad foaling you worry like mad.oreo is all i think about. Sure know what ye mean when talking about the lack of sleep. I have her on camra and have the tv right beside my bed. Never close my eyes for more than 20mins at a time.i have another mare goblet due four weeks after oreo so the watching will go on for a while yet. Oreo very tired today bag very big and hard nipples are also swollen today. To look at her from the side he big belly seams to be gone it is all hanging under her now. Is it normal not to feel much foal movement at this stage?


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## Eagle (Apr 16, 2013)

Yes Cilla it is quite normal, it is a good sign that she is close


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##  (Apr 16, 2013)

Sounds very promising, as baby doesn't have much room to move around in as momma gets close to foaling! Sounds just perfect!


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## cilla (Apr 17, 2013)

Just my luck we are in the middle of a storm here in ireland and the power is off. So no camra and no light in the stables. So guess who will be out for the night with a torch. Oreo still the same. Bag fit to burst. She has a blood coloured discharge this evening should i be worried


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## Eagle (Apr 17, 2013)

No it is probably her mucus plug. Can you take a pic for us to check? Stay safe, I hope the storm moves on fast. Look out as storms bring babies. Lol


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## AnnaC (Apr 17, 2013)

I think I would be outside right alongside her tonight, unless you are checking every 15 minutes, she sounds that close, and storms often seem to trigger foalings.





We are also suffering violent gale force winds here in Wales right now - and they are blowing in from your direction so please stop sending them across the Irish Sea!! LOL!!

Good luck and safe foaling.


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##  (Apr 17, 2013)

Tonight is YOUR night to stay in attendance, it sounds like! She sounds very close and we'll be praying that all goes well if she decides to foal!!


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## cilla (Apr 29, 2013)

Hi oreo had a little colt. Jet black with a star. Every thing went well with the birth. Thanks for all your help and advice.


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## cassie (Apr 29, 2013)

oh congratulations!  so glad all went well



can't wait for the pictures



he sounds cute!


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## Eagle (Apr 30, 2013)

Congratulations, can you post some pics


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## JAX (Apr 30, 2013)

Congrats on your little boy!! So glad to hear that all went well.


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## AnnaC (Apr 30, 2013)

Oooooo many congratulations!!



Pictures very soon PLEASE!!


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##  (Apr 30, 2013)

CONGRATULATIONS!!!!! So glad to hear all went well!! and now the hardest part for the Aunties is waiting to see pictures of the new little boy!! Sounds very cute!!


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## Eagle (Apr 30, 2013)

I am posting for Cilla some pics of her gorgeous new colt


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##  (Apr 30, 2013)

OMG -- what a handsome little boy!!!!! Just LOVE that face!!!! CONGRATULATIONS AGAIN!!!


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## Eagle (Apr 30, 2013)




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## SummerTime (Apr 30, 2013)

Awww!!! He's adorable!! Congrats!!


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## cilla (May 1, 2013)

Hi oreo and little devon doing great. Had his first trip out to the field today. Gosh he loves to run and jump about. Was a bit worried about mum as she didnt poo for ages after the birth. Had the vet look at them both and give shots. Oreo did a nice big poo this evening. How sad am i happy to see a poo. Thanks everyone for helping me and answering my questions. You will have to put up with me for a while yet goblet still to foal. She is at day 309.


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## Eagle (May 1, 2013)

I am so glad you managed to get them out for some fresh air, try and let oreo graze dome grass as it will help get things moving. If you don't have grass maybe some alfalfa.

It is normal for the mares to not poop after for a while as they usually empty out before foaling. Try and give her several small wet feeds spread out during the day and evening, just break down her total daily intake into lots of little ones.

How about sone outside pics


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## cilla (May 10, 2013)

Hi everyone. Devon and mum doing great. She is such a great mum for a first timer. I have a few questions. Devon likes to nibble on mums feed bothmeal and hay. I now put her feed up where he cant reach was wondering is it harmful to him at this age. I know he is only learning by doing what mum is doing. He is also nibbling on grass so cute to watch. Also i was thinking of entering oreo and devon he a mare a foal class in a local show any advice on taking a baby out to show. Thanks guys. I am still waiting a goblet to foal she is 315 days now. Cant wait for devon to have a playmate.


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## AnnaC (May 10, 2013)

As long as you are feeding a quality mare and foal feed then it is fine for little Devon to share his momma's feed, but you can also give him his own little bowl to 'play' with!!

As far as entering a show is concerned, there is no real reason why you shouldn't, depending upon his age at the time of course, but I dont think that I would do it - too many possibilities for Devon to pick up some sort of bug ( from either the other strange horses or from the showground itself, he will not have any immunity to 'outside' bugs) or worse still bring back some sort of bug to your home/barn where you would have the possibility of passing it on to your other animals - when is the show and allowing for the fact that Goblet might go to 340 or even longer before she foals, how old would her baby be then?

Talking of Goblet, I think that it is time that we had a few pictures of her as well as new ones of Oreo and Devon.


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##  (May 10, 2013)

I can't wait to see little Devon!

So cute that he's eating mom's food. If she's not happy sharing, just give him his own little bowl! I just love watching them "gum" all the food!! So cute!!!

And pictures of Goblet please!


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## cilla (May 15, 2013)

Hi can i have some advice from the pros. Do you cover you mares in hand or let them run with the stallion. I covered my two girls by hand last year i am aware this is better for working out due dates just wondering what the pros and cons were. Thanks.


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## Eagle (May 15, 2013)

I cover mine in hand every other day for a week and then turn them out with the stallion for another week or until they send him packing. Lol I found this much easier to calculate the due dates.


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##  (May 15, 2013)

I've always just pasture bred mine, and have had a good success rate, since some of the girls are "modest" and only want to be bred when no one is watching! LOL


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## AnnaC (May 16, 2013)

We have done it both ways and have never really had a problem calculating date - just watch what is happening very carefully! But I think the main consideration is to how the stallion reacts to being with foals, plus a lot of mares are pretty protective of their babies and foals can get injured in some of the behaviour that occurs.


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## cilla (May 24, 2013)

Hi update on my devon. He gave us a fright last week. Left him out for a run with his mum saturday morning. He seamed grand running and bucking as devon does. When to see him after about two hours and he had a runny nose so brought him in. He was panting a bit and looked cold so i called the vet. He had pneumonia. Poor pet. Felt so guilty thinking what did i do wrong. He is finished all is meds now and is back to him self. Was so worried.


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## Eagle (May 24, 2013)

Oh poor baby



I am so glad he is feeling better now. How about some pics?


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##  (May 24, 2013)

KUDOS for keeping such a close eye on him and catching it before it became too serious!! And don't worry yourself, I'm sure you did everything just fine! Like children, our little ones are prone to catchng things -- but the REAL "catch" was done by you!! Great job!

We MUST have more pictures....please!!!


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## LittleRibbie (May 24, 2013)

I just read your thread and Im sorry to hear about the passing of your mare and foal last year, how heartbreaking.

your little Devon is just the sweetest looking little guy...congratulations!I love his little star. Good job in you paying attention and taking action when you first noticed his runny nose. This forum has really taught me that these youngsters can go down hill very quickly and you being on top of things is wonderful.....good mommy award heading your way!! yup!!...more pictures needed!


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