# SHOCK COLLAR for a MINI????



## Miniv (Dec 11, 2007)

Here's one for you..........There's someone who has a mini who has been biting and also trying to kick out at their owner. They've put a Shock Collar on it as a part of training.

Would like to know what people think.........

MA


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## outlawridge (Dec 11, 2007)

I don't know the whole situation here but my knee jerk reaction is two fold... #1 sounds like a human induced problem from lack of early handling/training (and I realize the possibility that these people might not have been the owners till now) and #2..Lazy man's way out, which in turn is going to produce unneccessary stress and fear in the horse. IMHO - NO WAY would I use one.


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## runamuk (Dec 11, 2007)

You know I'd heard there was one for cribbers...did a search and sure enough there are a number of types made just for horses

http://www.gundogsupply.com/vibreltrcofo1.html

I would guess if used properly it could be as good a tool as any.


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Dec 11, 2007)

Hmmm...I wonder if that would really help with things like teaching them not to stick their heads through the fence....


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## maestoso (Dec 11, 2007)

The following is only based on my experience and opinion.

I have seen these "shock" collars work very effectively, and I feel they are very humane. The collar can be set to many different settings, starting from a shock you can barely even feel, all the way through the shock you might get from a high voltage electric fence, but even the highest shock level will not injure your horse, it just might make them very upset and/or nervous. In my experience the high setting are almost never necessary. It is a tool that shouldn't be used by a beginner or by someone who doesn't fully understand how and when to use it.

It is effective against all vices, weaving, cribbing, pawing, wind-sucking, stall kicking, etc. The only catch is that you literally have to have several consecutive hours of time to just sit and watch your horse. In the first stages of this training you have to catch the vice and shock every single time. If you pick and choose and/or are in and out of the barn and therfor missing it at times, the horse will get confused and the collar will be useless. After the first stages you can put the collar on periodically but it is an outstanding training tool and with the several (large) horses I have seen it used on it has had a 100% success rate in completely eliminating the vice.


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## twister (Dec 11, 2007)

I would be very reluctant to use the electronic collar to teach anything, you have to train the behavior first and then reinforce with the collar. I use a tritronic collar to work with retrievers but I only use it after they know the behavior I want to reinforce and then I only use a low level of stimulation and only for sit, here and go outs for blind retrieves. I have never used one on a horse but Jim Dobbs has - www.dobbsdogs.com and he used it on quarter horses to reinforce their keeping the rope taut on steers.Horses move away from pressure so he built it into the breastplate and again used low stimulation. I emphasise the low because these collars can go up to 18 levels, of all the dogs I train and work with no dog is on more than a level 3 and most are at a 2. I have seen dogs that are trained with high pressure and it is a sin to see the way they work. If you are contemplating using a collar on a horse then please get an expert to help you, they are not a tool to be used in anger and you need somebody experienced to show you how to use one.

Yvonne


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## maestoso (Dec 11, 2007)

Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.


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## twister (Dec 11, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.


Yes Matt I do use the collar to reinforce positive behaviors and the way Jim was using it on quarter horses is the same way.

Yvonne


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## runamuk (Dec 11, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.


The e-collar is always a negative stimulus. Even when used to reinforce a positive behavior. The manner of use is what is important, you need to know what your doing or else like any negative stimulus it can backfire and reinforce a negative behavior. Heck undoing negative behavior caused by positive stimulus is all too common a dog problem






Twister trains bird dogs so can probably elaborate much further on the science/theory behind it.

I use my e-collar for some boundary training, and bark control on one dog (vice breaking essentially). My husband uses it when he is training the bird dog (reinforcing positive behaviors) and still only with guidance, it is a powerful tool and has its place but one needs to really know what they are doing.


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## Katiean (Dec 11, 2007)

I had a TB (off the race track) that was a well practiced wind sucker. He did not even need a stall gate or fence rail to grab a hold of. He would just stretch his neck out even in the cross ties and start sucking. He had evidently been beat for this and one day he did it in front of me. I yelled "Randy, NO!!" The horse freaked. He broke one of the ties and banged his head on the wall violently. I kept a collar on him in the stall and paddock. But he still wind sucked. I think an electronic collar would have been safer and could have helped him. I don't think I would use it for kicking or biting. But for wind sucking, it could have it's use. If I had another Randy I might buy a collar.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 11, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Twister, it sounds like you are talking about reinforcing positive behaviors. The idea of the shock collar is that it discourages negative behaviors. You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement, so the collar makes them realize that when they exhibit a vice it is immediately interrupted by something unpleasent, so they learn that they don't want to do it.














The only part I disagree with is where Matt says "You cannot teach a horse NOT to paw by using positive reinforcement." Believe me, you can! Clicker training does just that quite nicely by having you reinforce the horse for a conflicting behavior. For instance the horse cannot physically paw if they are backing up, moving forward, or even holding one hind leg in the air (a goofy example, I know). Teach them to do something else, use positive reinforcement on that behavior, and the negative behavior, in this case pawing, will fade away in favor of the reinforced behavior. Horses develop vices because it gets them something- either it relieves stress, gets them attention, or it feels good even if only by releasing endorphins. The first and most important step in breaking those vices therefore is to remove the positive reinforcement from it. Make it NOT pleasant/fun, NOT attention-getting. The second and often regrettably overlooked step is to give them something else to do in its place that is equally rewarding. You don't tell your wild child in the grocery store "Don't do that, don't do that, hey don't do that either!" All that does is invite them to come up with something else annoying to try. Instead you ask them to get Item X for you off that shelf over there, have them push the cart, and invite them to sound out the shopping list with you. Good job, son! Much more fun for everyone.

Of course the _other_ most important thing is to figure out why they were driven to doing it in the first place! If your horse is stressed, maybe they need more turnout time and a different approach to their training. Always consider the cause before treating the symptoms.

Leia


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## maestoso (Dec 11, 2007)

Leia, if a horse paws for examle, maybe it is because they are bored. While redirecting that behavior to a new behavior is likely to teach the horse that it will get positive reinforcement for the new behavior, it is unlikely that the horse will forget the negative behavior.

Let's take smoking in humans for example. Let's say Im a smoker and want to quit, so I re-direct myself and go to the gym instead. While the gym may make me feel healthier, I wouldn't forget about smoking, no matter how much weight I lost, or how great shape I got in.

The horse might learn that if it backs up(your example of redirecting pawing) it will get positive reinforcement, but when you are away, and the horse gets bored, you are not there to provide the positive reinforcement and it will go back to pawing.

With the collar, there is little human contact, so the horse does not relate human interaction with any reinforcement, positive or negative. It just learns that if it paws, it gets a shock. This is why you need a lot of time to devote to the training in the beginning though.

I understand where you are coming from, and I would agree that if you were teaching a horse to DO something, positive reinforcement is by far the best way to do it. But I just don't think it works with discouraging a horse from certain behaviors. Teaching a horse to bow, for example, is much different then teaching a horse NOT to paw.

For the record, I don't smoke



I think it is a disgusting habit.


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## Marty (Dec 11, 2007)

hmmmmmm Not a fan of any shock treatments..........nope because horses are flighty enough. I'd find another way to correct the problem.


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## ClickMini (Dec 11, 2007)

The best way to get rid of unwanted behavior is to train an incompatible behavior. A horse can't bite and turn its head away from you for instance. A horse can't rear when its nose is on the ground.

In my experience people turn towards these training shortcuts when they have run out of experience and imagination. They don't know where else to turn.

I do train pretty much with positive reinforcement. I am not 100%, I definitely do still operate in all four quadrants of the training spectrum. However, in order for positive punishment (adding an unwanted stimulus to the environment in order to reduce the incidence of a behavior) to work, it has to be delivered WHILE the unwanted behavior is occurring (during the bite, not after), it has to be delivered with a minimum of emotion attached, and has to be 100% consistent. Most people don't have that kind of timing or consistency.

I feel it is much more effective for someone to teach the horse an incompatible behavior, as I described above. I walk through my herds of horses, big and small, with my pockets stuffed full of treats and never get mugged by them. I can hold a carrot under my horses' noses and they will not take it until after I have clicked them. Some of these horses were problem horses before, some were wild and unhandled, and some were babies. So they came with different amounts of baggage, etc. But they are all now very polite creatures, and that is because of the ground training I do with them. And I am very, very consistent.


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## Marty (Dec 12, 2007)

.........and this is another reason why I love Clicky


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## AnnaC (Dec 12, 2007)

Hobbyhorse, Marty, Clicky











I do so agree with you. There is nothing to beat early training/training at any time of the horses life to help overcome 'bad' habits. You have to work out WHY the horse does it in the first place. Boredom, stress etc etc are not IMO things that can be stopped with e-collars, something else will 'pop up' if the cause is not sorted out at base.

Many many years ago when I had a livery yard (american barn/indoor boxes style) I had a mare come in that weaved so badly she would fling off her front shoes. She came from a long term good home, but had always weaved. She was 14 years old and a really hyper type. Can you imagine what she would have been like if we had used a collar on her! In the 'barn' I had another 12 horses, ranging from 2 to 12 years, incuding 2 stallions. None of the other horses picked up/copied her weaving. At the end of 2 years she returned to her owner's (girl had been away at uni) place and the weaving had STOPPED - she never weaved again! What did I do to that mare? NOTHING! She was exercised, had time out daily with friends, went to shows and LIVED IN A CALM PEACEFUL ATMOSPHERE with other calm, happy and contented horses. It was my other horses that worked the miracle for her, plus they also did it for several 'cribbers'!

Time is a great healer and time is what must be given when dealing with horse 'problems' IMO.

Anna


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 12, 2007)

I am a fairly long time user and supporter of the e-collars for dogs- the ones available in Europe do not have the settings available in America to anyone (it seems) and here to the Services only.

Not so long ago a Police officer killed his dog "training" it with one of the de-regulation devices which led to a HUGE outcry against them all, and a general calling for them to be banned, which it looks as if they will be.

I shall continue to use mine!!

I would NEVER use one on a horse- they are flight animals who pick up neuroses as a result purely of human mismanagement.

If the collar were to be used to attempt to stop a neuroses I really do believe the horse would go into melt down.

I do not agree with their use in reining horses either- the "positive" side is, IMO a nonsense- how can you use pain, at any level, as a positive reinforcement??

You use PRAISE and REWARD as a positive reinforcement.

When I "Beep" my dogs (and the sound is all they need 9 times o/o ten, they return to the safety zone- my leg, here it is safe, here there is NEVER punishment, here they are rewarded.

I have a sonic collar on my "new" dog as he is an attention barker.

Once it has beeped him a couple of times he actually comes to me and waits for it to be taken off, then he remembers not to bark- he is not a daft dog!!

A sonic collar might work on a weaver- it would have no effect on a wind sucker, nothing does.

The ONLY thing that actually works, long term and forever, as Anna has so ably demonstrated, is removing the cause of the actions.

If a horse is bored and paws, and you shock it, it will have hysterics and find something else to do, if you shock it for that I seriously think it will eventually have a breakdown- we have all seen show horses standing with their heads in the corner, their ears felt and their eyes glazed over.

I can only hope that, in their heads, they are running free.

When you use a collar on a dog you do it to control the animal- gundogs working cover go completely deaf, a beep followed by a command followed by, if there is no response a short reprimand and then immediate praise soon teach it the wisdom of returning to call.

What exactly are you teaching the horse??

To stand still all day and be bored out of it's tiny mind because YOU want it to stand still??

Even though every instinct in it's body is telling it to move forward steadily, grazing??

It has no food, it has shavings to stand on, it has NOTHING to do, so it weaves and it gets an electric shock??

No, sorry, I call that abuse, not training!!!

Even though I do not use clicker training per se and never shall, any real trainer understands that the ONLY way to actually train an animal is consistency, reward, and action- the reward for standing still quietly for a few minutes will be forward movement and freedom, etc (I do not have to explain all this to you, do I??)

Punishing a horse is fairly pointless, it relieves human tension and rarely has a lasting effect on the animal, and an e-collar is a punishment, there is no other way it can be used IME.

Now, _reprimanding_ a horse, immediately and sharply, for something such as kicking or biting is a whole different ball game...........


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## RobinRTrueJoy (Dec 12, 2007)

I never thought of using one on a mini and fortunately haven't had the need.

BUT..... I do have a great dane. He is 120 pound puppy. I did use a shock collar for several weeks and it worked great. It has a "sound" button that you use prior to the shock. I shocked him a total of three times. If he needs a refresher course, I simply put the collar on and use the reminder "noise" with a no, or command. Great Danes need help with getting their attention, and the noise on the collar reminded him that he had better listen to me.

In the case of using it on the colt.... I think maybe it might be worth a try if you have tried all the other ways to stop biting.... for a few reasons.

Biting hurts and can be dangerous, and its a reflex to give him a good smack when you are bit. Can make him head shy or hand shy depending where you smack him. (Certainly should not be his face or head)

Using the shock , is like a smack but he doesn't see it coming or become afraid of humans or hands.

I bet it would work providing you use a LOUD "NO!!!" along with it, so he gets the idea that NO means NO BITE.

I have never had a colt that didn't PASS THROUGH that nipping stage( I think many do it to some degree) Usually they nip a few times, get corrected and its done. I have never had a "BITER", I "nip" it in the bud(excuse the pun)

I for one, if I had a persistent biter would try it, after I tried all the other ways. After all, children's faces are level with mini horse mouths, it would be such a danger to a child especially, not just a bruise on an adult.

It is no less humane than using electric fence, and you can dial in the degree of shock with these collars, however it would be the last form of correction on my list.

Robin


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Dec 12, 2007)

Wow Matt--you seem to really know your shock collars and a lot about human and animal psychology. You weren't perhaps a psych major were you?

Man...if I even THOUGHT about trying anything like a shock collar on my horses (esp. my Rainy!) I would get kicked to the moon!! She would somehow KNOW I did it and hunt me down...

Amy


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## Georgine (Dec 12, 2007)

I don't like the sound of a shock collar for my horses, or dogs, and couldn't do it.

As Twister said, if you have proper training to use the devices there may be a place for them to be used.

Possibly people who use them on their animals might want to do a "personal test" with them first.

A suggestion would be to put the collar around your own neck to get an idea of the strength of voltage or pain being caused.

I saw a young man on Americas Funniest Videos wearing a shock collar and being given ever increasing jolts. It looked pretty painful, although he was laughing once it stopped.

In the past, or possibly it still happens, people were given shock treatments to correct mental problems, which is the idea of shock collars, I suppose.

I thought that human shock treatments were "barbaric" as well.


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## ChrystalPaths (Dec 12, 2007)

To say I am "shocked by the idea of using correctional shock collars on a horse would be an understatement.






I have a 3 acre area invisible fenced for the brittany and it is for her safety. She would chase a sparrow 10 miles, dumb dog! Her collar beeps, the vibrates, then zaps lightly, and if it persists a harder zap and I have nothing to do with it it is just on her. Now 3 yrs later she has only beep and vibrate but take the collar off and within a day she figures out she is safe from it and takes off.

A horse, while the idea of fenceless pasture is SO appealing, wearing a shock collar is not practical as they are flight animals. When pain is inflicted they run away. So many other ways to correct misbehavior other than a shock collar on a horse. For heaven's sake.

I will agree with FairyTailGlenn, Matt must have some sort of PHD to have such vast knowlege at such a young age. If I used on on my Halley (her vice is pinning her ears but she doesn't mean it) she'd really get a vice...bitting cuz even if she didn't see me, she'd know I did it. Nope..no shocking horses. Lazy fix.

edited for spelling


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## stormy (Dec 12, 2007)

I must say I can't imagine using a shock collar for general training however it is effective on cribbers/windsuckers, this nasty habit can cause some serious health issues and in the case of the horse I saw corrected using the collar, it likely saved his life.

I have seen electric reins, whips and other devices used in training saddle and halter horses...just another substitute for investing the time to do it the right way.


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## maestoso (Dec 12, 2007)

In my experience, which has only been on large horses, a horse has never exhibited any of the negative "side-effects" that some of you mention. My dressage trainer uses it for her horses, and I used it on my ISH to stop weaving. He stopped, didn't develop any other bad habits, and is actually much calmer. Th weaving was an effect of boredom. But the weaving also caused stress. So now, no weaving, no stress, and he deals with his boredom by eating or playing with his jolly ball. Sometimes I would put a hand-full of grain in a water bottle(no cap) and put it in his grain dish. He shuffles the bottle around and once in a while a grain pellet or two will fall out, he would eat them, then keep trying for more. A handful of grain can provide hours of entertainment this way.

But back to the collars. I am not out to promote them, just to say that if they are used correctly, they can be effective, and have been with every horse I have seen them used on, and again, no negative effects have ever been exhibited, and no horse, in my experience, has have developed new vices. And if the horse were truly getting abused, it WOULD have developed side effects, either other vices or fear or panic, and it has not happened.

I forgot who asked but I am was not psych major, but I was a communications major, which involves many of the psych theories and I took several psych classes, though my thoughts on all of this are purely through observation. When I saw that my trainer used it, I was skeptical at first and didn't like the idea, but saw how effective it was.

I am wondering how many of you (who don't agree with the collar) have electric fencing? It provides the same idea as many of you are saying is ineffective, or in some cases, abuse. Electric fencing is certainly not positive reinforcement, nor is it a redirection of behavior. The horse, crosses the boundary, and receives a negative stimulus. Collar= horse exhibits vice, and receives a negative stimulus. Exact same thing.

I will agree though, that the collar CAN be used very ineffectively and that in order for it to work you MUST have the time to devote to it in the beginning to use it while the horse is exhibiting the behavior, not after, or in anticipation of the behavior, otherwise the horse will get confused.

And the collar does not inflict pain, I know this because I tried it on myself before I used it on my horse(who has thicker skin than me). It inflicts a small shock. It is uncomfortable and annoying, but not painful.


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## Georgine (Dec 12, 2007)

I am one who wouldn't use the shock collar and also do not have electric fencing.

I am glad that you tried the collar yourself Matt, to get an idea of the pain inflicted.

After watching the guy on Americas Funniest Videos I don't think I would have the nerve.

In an earlier post I mentioned "shock treatments" for humans to help with mental disturbances.

I know a person who had the treatment and I think it was "barbaric" ........if what my Dad told me was true.

I am sorry, but I can't think of any miniature horse that would require a shock treatment.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 12, 2007)

Georgine said:


> I am sorry, but I can't think of any miniature horse that would require a shock treatment.


I have to agree with the above. I cant imagine a mini horse that would NEED a stud chain especially a full size horse one there are many things I just cant imagine needing when training a horse under 300 lbs


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Dec 12, 2007)

My favorite radio station does something about once a month called "shock collar kareoki" (sp)...OMG it is funny! I think that might be a better use of a shock collar than using it on a horse.


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## ClickMini (Dec 12, 2007)

There is actually a very big difference between an electric fence and a shock collar. The fence delivers the correction as the behavior is happening, while a shock collar depends on the presence, action, and timing of a handler. An electric fence is 100% consistent, provided that it is turned on, and delivers the correction every time at the exact moment the undesired behavior is occurring.

Interestingly enough, Matt, this example demonstrates the inefficiency of using such devices. I bet anyone that has ever used electric fencing has noticed that if the fencing is turned off for any length of time, the horses discover the situation and the fence is rapidly torn down or damaged by horses trying to get grass on the other side. If it were to work as the shock collars are advertised, once the horses were "trained" to avoid the fence, they would never approach it again. Clearly, that isn't the case.

In your psych classes you may have heard the term "variable reinforcement." If an animal is reinforced periodically, even in the face of punishment, it can actually strengthen behavior.



FairytailGlennMinis said:


> My favorite radio station does something about once a month called "shock collar kareoki" (sp)...OMG it is funny! I think that might be a better use of a shock collar than using it on a horse.


Having been to a karoake bar before, I would agree with you! A most appropriate use of the tool.


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## justanothercowgirl (Dec 12, 2007)

ClickMini said:


> There is actually a very big difference between an electric fence and a shock collar. The fence delivers the correction as the behavior is happening, while a shock collar depends on the presence, action, and timing of a handler. An electric fence is 100% consistent, provided that it is turned on, and delivers the correction every time at the exact moment the undesired behavior is occurring.
> 
> Interestingly enough, Matt, this example demonstrates the inefficiency of using such devices. I bet anyone that has ever used electric fencing has noticed that if the fencing is turned off for any length of time, the horses discover the situation and the fence is rapidly torn down or damaged by horses trying to get grass on the other side. If it were to work as the shock collars are advertised, once the horses were "trained" to avoid the fence, they would never approach it again. Clearly, that isn't the case.
> 
> In your psych classes you may have heard the term "variable reinforcement." If an animal is reinforced periodically, even in the face of punishment, it can actually strengthen behavior.


Thank you Amy, you took the words right out of my mouth! I was actually going to abstain from typing out a reply since I have a feeling we are shouting into the wind here! OH!


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## maestoso (Dec 12, 2007)

You are not "shouting in to the wind" I completely understand your point. If you'll read my post once more, you'll find that twice I stated that the collar is useless unless you have the time for it. Just like the electric fence, you have to catch the behavior DURING the behavior. With this in mind, the collar can be just as consistent as the fence. As far as "variable reinforcement" if you spend enough time at the beginning, it will not be an issue, or at least, hasn't been for me. My trainer used the method to stop her horse from pawing. She spent an entire weekend at her horses stall when she first got the collar. After the weekend he has never pawed again, or developed other habits. No, she is not in the barn all the time to view, but if he were pawing, you would see the paw marks, and there are none.

Call it abuse if you like I suppose, but Ive never seen an abused horse so happy to see their "abuser" each day when they arrive at the barn . . . . And though there is no guarantee it can be effective on every horse(there is NO training method that is effective on every horse) I have seen its success with no negative "side" effects. In all cases, horses and owners had a happy and viceless ending. Again, not promoting it, just someone asked a question, and it can be successful.

To edit this, looked at the question again.... I have only ever seen the collar used for cribbing, windsucking, weaving, pawing, and stall kicking. Ive never seen it used for aggression toward humans.


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## mininik (Dec 12, 2007)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> Georgine said:
> 
> 
> > I am sorry, but I can't think of any miniature horse that would require a shock treatment.
> ...



I know this is not what this discussion is about, but in response to the above statement, I have come across several Miniatures who have NEEDED a stud chain, at least for retraining. Being attacked or dragged by a 300 pound stallion is no fun. The horses I am thinking of were dangerous in that they had been poorly handled in the past, making them nearly unresponsive or extremely overreactive to pressure. In these situations the stud chains are not used as a means to abuse the horse, but rather to amplify a movement or command with noise and pressure and an instant reward (release from pressure). As an aside, I use slip leads on all of my dogs (from 5-100 lbs.) for the same reason, even though none of them actually NEED one.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 12, 2007)

Well keep in mind that I come from a large horse background were the smallest horse in our barn was 16.1 so for me there is a difference the only thing I can say is minis are much quicker on there feet then there larger counterparts and can rear and spin and kick much faster then a large horse can even think about doing one of those things. There smaller size makes them alot more agile.

I to have had some rather rude minis over the years and I guess the fact that I am not 100 lbs helped in that I really never needed a chain (ok maybe the only time I can say being fat was helpful)

most of those times I simply turned the opposite way of the horse he hit the end of the lead and realized I was not there and turned around. (much like teaching a dog to heel) I have never had the issue of truly being drug by a mini even a ill mannered B size one but then again I am not as thin as you are Mininik so when one of us hit the end of the lead it has been me that comes out on top. Raven however not so much she has done the flying behind like a kite thing once or twice in her life





and for those that come at me I found a stud chain doesnt really have the effect I prefer and deal with it in other ways but again that is just me we all have our own prefered methods.


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## ClickMini (Dec 12, 2007)

No matter how diligent the handler, there is no way to be as consistent as a passive device. There is bound to be a time when you are looking away, sneezing, going to grab some lunch, or having a nap. While you may have experienced success with the method, most will not.

It is still the MOST EFFECTIVE and humane method of training to teach the animal an incompatible behavior.


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## mininik (Dec 12, 2007)

Amy, in the case of a vice such as pacing, if you're not around to request the horse do an incompatible behavior, how does that work? My thoughts are to add exercise, rearrange the horse's space to make it more interesting and offer the horse something (or several somethings) to redirect it's attention to in a positive way when I am not there. I suppose you mean to make the incompatible behavior something the pacing horse could do and be rewarded for without the presence of the handler, such as play with a treat ball? I do agree that this would be a preferable way to go about handling the situation, rather than the shock collar. Shock collars have been proven to stress dogs.


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## ClickMini (Dec 12, 2007)

Nikki, you and I are on the same page here for sure. I think nearly all vices of the type you mention are stress-related and due to management techniques more than anything. Making changes in husbandry technique can help reduce the incidence of these behaviors. Feeding more frequently, providing enrichment in the form of toys or paddock layout to encourage movement, exercise, company, all of these things can help a lot.

Things that happen in the presence of a handler, such as impatient pawing and biting/nipping, are the type of behaviors that can be re-directed to another, and incompatible, behavior.


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## Katiean (Dec 12, 2007)

In the case of the wind sucking TB I had (he wind sucked LONG before I got him). I think it would have been kinder to use the shock collar than have him beat his brains out on the barn wall because I triggered a memory of being beat for wind sucking. He did wear a cribbing strap. It didn't work.


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## runamuk (Dec 12, 2007)

Actually I've been thinking on this.........

In the case of a biter using a breast collar with a shock set fairly high could work quite well.

In my experience with biters the best results came when the horse was quickly and forcefully smacked across the chest with a whip.......if I was another horse I would kick the offender more than likely in the chest........of course you also need to exert some dominant body language as well.....no meek and mild when dealing with biting.

just my experience in nipping "nipping" in the bud....pun intended


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## hhpminis (Dec 12, 2007)

This has been very interesting reading, both sides.

I have never used a shock collar for dogs or horses. Never even had an electric fence, however, I am adding stallion runs this spring and will have a wire above the fence and at chest level so they cannot come over the fence at each other. I am also tired of them using my million dollar fencing for a butt scratcher.

I will not go as far to say that I would never consider a shock collar for a horse but I would have to do some research before I did. I feel very strongly that horses are not all made from the same mold. There are many different personalities and as Amy "click mini" brought out, baggage that comes along with them. There is not one discipline that works for every horse. Some are more sensitive, others are bull headed. Just like my kids, one all I had to do was give him the look, the other, well, lets just say, she took a bit more convincing.

I use positive reinforcement in my training. It is simple and old school. Reward the good, reprimand the bad. The only challenges are first, finding out what reward and reprimand works for that individual horse, and second, being consistent with whatever method you find that works. I start with the lightest discipline and work my way up until I get their attention. As they grow to understand what I am asking them to do or not to do, 9 times out of 10 the reminders become more subtle. I also coincide any physical discipline with a vocal and soon all that is needed is the vocal as they know if they dont respond the harsher is coming.

And Lisa, as far as being drug by a mini...LOL. I am not little and I have skiid across the lawn a couple times and it has been led by the smallest mini in the barn, 31 inches. There were a lot of discipline methods that I considered using on that little "darling", you will have to read between the lines to get my true feelings of him, haha. He did go back to his owners and left here with manners but as soon as he figured out he could pull the wool over their eyes he reverted to bad habits. He needed a very strong hand. He was 4 when he came, a stallion, and had absolutely no clue that humans were boss and had no fear or respect of anything that I could do to him. Never could let your guard down with him even for a second. I might have considered a shock collar for him had I thought of it.


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## mininik (Dec 12, 2007)

Actually, Annette, rewarding the good and reprimanding the bad is not positive or negative reinforcement, it is considered positive punishment.





I use positive reinforcement in Agility. I never physically reprimand or say No or make a disapproving sound, no matter if the dog doesn't do as I ask. I even try not to feel or transmit negative emotion. You always try to set the dog up for success and reward immediately and often. Success may be very basic and not what you asked or want your dog to do in the future, but you build on these small successes over time. There are high value and low value rewards, but no punishment or negativity. It's been a totally new experience compared to what most do to train their horses and is truly an eye opener.


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## ClickMini (Dec 12, 2007)

> There are high value and low value rewards, but no punishment or negativity. It's been a totally new experience compared to what most do to train their horses and is truly an eye opener.


Nikki, that is the exact way I felt when I started clicker training my horses six years ago! It was as if I suddenly was able to "talk" to them. I had to learn to really evaluate each task I was teaching them, break it down into very small pieces of behavior. I learned about behavior chains and back-chaining. It is quite interesting to see how the horses change their body language when you open a training session. They ABSOLUTELY UNDERSTAND. I just can't express strongly enough how well this has worked for me in every area of horse handling. I still do work with big horses, really big horses. Clicker training made my big Thoroughbred safe to be around, it is the ONLY method I found that worked correctly with him.

Now this is not to say that I am perfect, LOL. Far from it. But I have built such a solid reinforcement history with my animals that they will forgive my occasional lapse into "being human." Some more than others...my little mare I got this summer is extremely sensitive, and I can never, ever cross that line with her. She is always ready to believe that humans are not really all that great. Of course, I don't have a really long reinforcement history on that horse in the context of her life span.

I just don't feel that punishment has much of a place in good training. If a horse learns in a punishing environment, it is in spite of and not because of. Most traditional horse training methods are based on negative reinforcement as you know. I do believe that negative reinforcement is necessary for horse training.

Educational information for those who don't understand what it means: negative reinforcement is the removal of an undesired stimulus when the animal performs correctly. An example of this might be taking the slack out of your lead rope and when your horse gives to that pressure (undesired stimulus) you release.


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## nightflight (Dec 12, 2007)

So often the issue really isn't the issue. It reminds me of a great conversation.

Owner: My horse won't load into a trailer.

Trainer: So, teach him to lead.

Owner: He does lead.

Trainer: So, lead him into the trailer.

A horse can come with a vice like bite/kick, but there is only so long you can blame it on a old owner, bad trainer, or hormones. Unless the horse has been mentally destroyed, sooner or later you have to own to the fact that you are the owner/trainer and as such you are the one allowing it to continue. Unless the owner/trainers in question are planning on using the shock collar on themselves after they are finished with the horse (since it's such a great teaching tool) it's not going to do to much about the people part of the equation.

Working with a trainer would be a great solution. The horse would win - by getting training vs. conditioning. The owners would win - the would learn some of the skill it takes to handle a horse so he doesn't bite/kick.

The more a horse has learned, the more he is able to learn. Think it through. If you work with horses you already know it. Conditioning is not training. It doesn't improve a skill set, or the animal's ability to learn and reason. Conditioning creates a response - there is nothing there to build on. Shocking that horse may condition it not to bite/kick, but it isn't training. It will get the owners the result they want, but it's not going to do a darn thing to improve that horse's life and make it a thinking being.


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## hhpminis (Dec 12, 2007)

I truly think we may be getting stuck on words here. I am not disagreeing with anything you have said, I think we are similar in thinking, just term it differently.

Discipline is not bad physical treatment or something that brings pain mentally or physically, it can be but doesn't need to be and most of the time shouldn't be. Reward and reprimand are similar in this. I always set my animals up to succeed and follow through with an action as if I expect it from them. Usually you get it.

Reprimand comes in to play when they dont do as you ask or fail to follow through on an expected action. This may be for different reasons and that is the key to proper discipline (reinforcement, campatible, incompatible behavior, high, low reward, whatever we want to call it) and can only come when you know your animal. A reprimand because they are afraid is far different from a reprimand if they are acting out of disrespect or a challenge. A reprimand of a horse that is scared may be as little as some soft words and body language to show them they are OK and it is not going to hurt them, the lesson for the day may be that they approached the challenge with a good attitude and it ends there to be taken a step further the next lesson. As long as they put forth an effort to try.

A reprimand of a horse that is coming at you with a challenge or disrespect needs a stronger quicker reprimand to avoid harm to you and the animal. This also is done with a positive mental attitude, not one of anger or fear on your part, but authority and assuredness. This manner too, will depend on the horse that is doing the challenge.

I truly think we are thinking similar just stating things in different ways. I dont care for the term positive punishment as it denotes a negativity, but that is me.




I do not see how praise, pats and scratches can be called positive punishment. I keep a very positive mental state when working with each animal and I dont expect them to do things that they are not ready for or that they cannot physically or mentally do.

Whatever form of training you choose to use it still is simple, reward the good, reprimand the bad. Use whatever term or phrase you want. The action given for completing a task as asked is different than the action given for not performing as asked. Tomato tomaato LOL I guess I am just simple folk.

edited to add, and no sarcasm intended 

If you do not ask your animal to do more than you think they are ready to do, the reprimands, (that is my word of choice) are kept to a minimum. The positive reinforcement (also my term of choice) will be the majority of the animals experience with learning new things.

As far as vices, I totally agree, find the reason and adjust the environment to discourage them from doing it whatever that will entail, it is often trial and error. The less opportunity you give them to do their bad habit the more seldom they do it therefore becoming less of a habit and perhaps eventually not exist anymore.


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## maestoso (Dec 12, 2007)

I think that it is completely speculative to say that "most" would not realize success with such a device, especially considering you have never used it. In fact it is quite the contrary, I have known several horses/owners that have had great success with it. Like any other training method, you can't say it probably won't work until you try it. You can certainly say that you wouldn't try it, for one reason or another, but because you haven't used it, and since it sounds as though you don't know anyone who has, to say that "most" wouldn't find success, what is that based on?

I consider barn vices much different from teaching a horse to lead, get into the trailer, to do a trick, teach it to drive, ride, etc.... Those are all behaviors that involve human interaction. Vices happen with or without a human present. While I agree that vices can be related to boredom or stress, and that there are things you can try first, such as rearranging things, eliminating a noise, moving horses around, adding a jolly ball, leaving the door open with a stall guard etc, With some horses non of this will discourage the horse from the vice. Smokers know it is bad for them, they know the side effects, and can plan alternate activities during cravings, but will this always break their habit? No, because it becomes psychological, it is the same with horses. You can give a horse a million things to do, but if it is ingrained in his head to paw, he likely will paw. The collar, which to reiterate does not induce pain, just uncomfort, teaches the horse that a certain behavior yields a consequence.

And as far as the "looking away/sneezing/not being there" argument, the same can be said for your methods. When you are not there, who is redirecting the horse to the incompatible behavior???


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## ClickMini (Dec 12, 2007)

Annette that definitely was a terminology misunderstanding, as praise, pats, and other goodness is positive reinforcement.





Scientific terminology for behavior stuff. It is confusing at times even for those who work with it day in and day out.





You are a trainer I know "does it right," and are one I would trust my beloved little friends with anytime! 

And Matt, it just isn't necessary to use that stuff IMO. You don't shock people to teach them do you? Yet they learn. Shocking does not create a healthy learning environment. I won't argue with you about it anymore, because it is obvious that you have a belief system in which it is okay to do such things. I believe that animals are thinking, feeling beings, and they don't deserve that kind of treatment.


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## mininik (Dec 12, 2007)

How can discipline be positive? In operant conditioning, with positive reinforcement there is no discipline, no reprimand, no corrections. Positive reinforcement occurs when a behavior is followed by a favorable stimulus that increases the frequency of that behavior. On the other hand, positive punishment occurs when a behavior is followed by an aversive stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior. If you tell a seasoned horse to whoa and it steps off, do you pat him or ignore it and send him back into a whoa? Most Halter trainers I know do not, they have established a consequence and that is okay, it's just not proper terminology to label it as positive reinforcement.


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## ClickMini (Dec 12, 2007)

*TERMINOLOGY CLARIFICATION* from the scientific standpoint.

*Reinforcement* = strengthen a behavior

*Punishment* = suppress a behavior

*Positive* = add something

*Negative* = remove something

*Positive reinforcement * = Adding something the animal will work for to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior.

*Negative reinforcement * = Removing something the animal will work to avoid to strengthen (increase the frequency of) a behavior.

*Positive punishment * = Adding something the animal will work to avoid to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior.

*Negative punishment * = Taking away something the animal will work for to suppress (lessen the frequency of ) a behavior.

_Excerpted from Click for Joy: Questions and Answers from Clicker Trainers and Their Dogs by Melissa Alexander_

Where it can get confusing, for example is...where does positive punishment end and negative reinforcement start? Once a person has been studying for a while it is clear that the delineation is in the intent. Are you trying to suppress or strengthen a behavior? Otherwise it is two sides to the same coin, isn't it? Yes it may vary in intensity, etc., but a good trainer of any animal is aware of where they are operating in that behavior quadrant and be able to use that information.


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## hhpminis (Dec 12, 2007)

mininik said:


> How can discipline be positive? In operant conditioning, with positive reinforcement there is no discipline, no reprimand, no corrections. Positive reinforcement occurs when a behavior is followed by a favorable stimulus that increases the frequency of that behavior. On the other hand, positive punishment occurs when a behavior is followed by an aversive stimulus, such as introducing a shock or loud noise, resulting in a decrease in that behavior. If you tell a seasoned horse to whoa and it steps off, do you pat him or ignore it and send him back into a whoa? Most Halter trainers I know do not, they have established a consequence and that is okay, it's just not proper terminology to label it as positive reinforcement.


Nikki, like I said, you say tomato, I say tomaato, I have not read the scientific books and articles on positive, negative, reinforcement, punishment. Thank you Amy for the scientific definition. But, the fact of the matter is that basically we are talking the same thing. Just different terminology and I am not going to get caught up in a word game but yes there can be positive discipline.

I do not offer positive reinforcement for wrong behavior. I reprimand and then when they react positively to the reprimand, I then can offer positive reinforcement. So yes according to your terminology, I do use positive punishment, I just personally do not care for that term.



_All_ of my training methods, according to the actual defintion are discipline.

Here is the different defintions of discipline. Most are not negative or involve physical punishment as you can see by the ones I bolded.

dis·ci·pline [ díssəplin ]

noun (plural dis·ci·plines)

Definition:

*1. training to ensure proper behavior: the practice or methods of teaching and enforcing acceptable patterns of behavior*

*2. order and control: a controlled orderly state, especially in a class of schoolchildren*

*3. calm controlled behavior: the ability to behave in a controlled and calm way even in a difficult or stressful situation*

*4. conscious control over lifestyle: mental self-control used in directing or changing behavior, learning something, or training for something*

*5. education activity or subject: a subject or field of activity, e.g. an academic subject*

6. punishment: punishment designed to teach somebody obedience

*7. christianity church rules: the system of rules used in a religious denomination or order*

verb (past and past participle dis·ci·plined, present participle dis·ci·plin·ing, 3rd person present singular dis·ci·plines)

Definition:

*1. vr make yourself do something regularly: to make yourself act or work in a controlled or systematic way*

2. transitive verb punish somebody: to punish somebody as a way of enforcing obedience

*3. transitive verb teach somebody obedience: to teach somebody to obey rules or to behave in an acceptable way*

[13th century. Directly or via French< Latin disciplina *"instruction given to a learner" * < discipulus (see disciple)]


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## kaykay (Dec 12, 2007)

I so agree with annette and this is how I train horses and dogs with of course subtle differences. A few years ago I got flamed pretty badly on the back porch for insisting that if someone doesnt have time to train a puppy they shouldnt get one. IMO it equals abuse. If you dont have time to train a foal/horse then again you shouldnt get one. Its just not fair to the animal.

I will never be a fan of shortcuts and would never put a shock collar on a dog or horse. I have a friend that has used a shock collar on her dog now for 5 years. Umm obviously its not really working to change any behavior or she wouldnt have to keep using it 5 years later.

I know when I take on any animal especially a young one that I am going to have to spend time working with and training that animal. So many people anymore want instant gratification and dont want to spend the actual time it takes to train an animal properly.

I also have never trained dogs or horses with food as a reward and have always been totally against that.

I had to use a stud chain two times on a particular stallion that had not been taught to respect humans and especially bad about space and leading. It only took using the chain 2 times and I never had to do it again. Also it was NOT over his nose. He was only 30" but was built like a brick wall.

Matt I dont think you can compare smoking to barn vices. When smokers quit smoking they not only go through mental withdraw but they also go thru physical withdraw from nicotine.

IMO stall vices usually occur because the horse is stalled way too much. The simplest solution is to simply stop stalling the horse so much


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## outlawridge (Dec 12, 2007)

kaykay said:


> I will never be a fan of shortcuts and would never put a shock collar on a dog or horse.


Shortcut was precisely why I said "lazy man's way out" in my first post. And I stand by my comment "NO WAY would I use one." And my hubby, who is a professional trainer and clinician of mainly full sized horses, was appalled at the very idea. He uses non-resistant methods at all times with great success. His motto is "Always ask Never force". He also says there are many different ways to get the end result..3+1=4 and 2+2=4 etc and not every way is correct or "right" for every person or animal, however, this is one he would never use either. And truly, no insult intended to other's opinions, he did have an interesting idea.... "Why doesn't everyone who thinks up these types of tools have them tried out on themselves for a few days first?"


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## runamuk (Dec 12, 2007)

I am curious how is any tool a "shortcut"...lets get real a shock collar is no more or less a short cut than a clicker or treat or for that matter halter and lead



all tools when used correctly have benefits and drawbacks. And even clicker's and treats can be used in completely wrong ways. I have dealt with plenty of "humanely" trained horses that were never disciplined and only rewarded with treats that were rude, beligerent, and downright dangerous.

The tool has no effect on its own the intent and use by the person determines the effectiveness. I've yet to see a whip act independent of the hand controlling it


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## maestoso (Dec 12, 2007)

How do people here feel about twitches......? If you have used a twitch before but think the collar is abuse, please explain what you feel the differences are.


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## outlawridge (Dec 12, 2007)

runamuk said:


> I have dealt with plenty of "humanely" trained horses that were never disciplined and only rewarded with treats that were rude, beligerent, and downright dangerous.


Wow, evidently they really were not trained at all!







Matt Drown said:


> How do people here feel about twitches......? If you have used a twitch before but think the collar is abuse, please explain what you feel the differences are.


Never used a twitch so can't answer that, as I never had a reason to. Always used a different approach and not always the same approach, but with success. But yes, I am one that would not use the collar (did not call it abuse though).


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## runamuk (Dec 12, 2007)

outlawridge said:


> runamuk said:
> 
> 
> > I have dealt with plenty of "humanely" trained horses that were never disciplined and only rewarded with treats that were rude, beligerent, and downright dangerous.
> ...


Well many seem to think giving an animal a treat for looking cute is training



and that can go very wrong when that cute foal is now 15 hands and insisting on being boss with teeth and feet OH! OH!


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## outlawridge (Dec 12, 2007)

runamuk said:


> Well many seem to think giving an animal a treat for looking cute is training
> 
> 
> 
> and that can go very wrong when that cute foal is now 15 hands and insisting on being boss with teeth and feet OH! OH!


You said it!


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## hhpminis (Dec 12, 2007)

I apologize, my response to this post got off topic a bit.

So...back to my original statement. I have never used one. However, I have had enough experience in life that I will not say that I never will use one as never is a very big word. As I said before, each horse is different and sometimes you are faced with a situation that you have to try something new as nothing you have done in the past works on this particular horse.

Also want to add, that this would be an unlikely tool for me as personally, I hate to get shocked. It makes me really angry. I have memories of my brothers grabbing me and then they touch the fence to shock me. I hated it then and I still hate it. And yes, I have been shocked by a shock collar, I did not like it.

I am going to put up some electric fence this winter/spring as I am making stallion runs, but this will be the first electric fence I have ever used. As a matter of fact, I bought the fencer and materials to do it almost a year ago and have not been able to make myself put it up.

I obviously have an issue with electric shock.


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## Katiean (Dec 13, 2007)

ClickMini said:


> You don't shock people to teach them do you?


Shocking people to learn. This might work for people that smoke. LOL

Really, I think in extreme cases the shock collar might have it's place. I know these habits were caused by people. But, it falls to the next guy to fix the problem.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 13, 2007)

With a dog, possibly, with a horse, an animal with COMPLETELY different behaviour patterns, No, it is an abusive shortcut.

I have the greatest sympathy for someone who has "inherited" a horse with annoying habits such s weaving BUT it was their choice to do so.

I have a horse that stall walks- a true neurosis caused by a violent accident - I can assure you that a shock collar would not work.

There have been times when I would cheerfully have used a sledge hammer if I had thought it would work!!!

What works is _managing_ the horse, in exactly the same way as managing the horse allows my animals to live out on good grass without foundering.

It is a LOT more work and it is the side of horsemastership that I have always loved- riding I could take or leave and have long since left.

I use a shock collar on one Dobe bitch because she will attack smaller dogs and when they are not mine it is embarrassing- it was a judgement call, use the collar or have her PTS as all other methods had failed.

She was attacking out of insecurity, not anger, and this is the most difficult behaviour to eradicate.

The collar controlled her and, whilst she was wearing it, she felt "safe"- ie controlled- she exhibited, after the initial couple of low grade warnings, immediate response to my commands and returned to the safety zone by my leg at once, when she even saw a small, edible, dog.

The collars I use on the other two are completely and totally to shock them when they attack my oldest dog- to prevent them killing her- again, when they wear the collars they look at her sideways but they do not attack, I have only to "beep" them and they come to heel- the times they are all together outside are very limited so the necessity to wear the collars is negligible.

Al;though I can see them being useful as a training device for Gundogs (for which purpose they were originally invented) I can see no place for them in the "pet owners" training- I have not met one of my "pet dog owners" at my "Dog School" that I would trust to use such a device.

To punish a horse, an animal devised by nature to move all day, and to be able to move or to die, for developing a neurosis because it cannot do this, is abuse (misuse of..unjust practice [O.E.D.])

I can see a real use for "invisible fencing" but this is control, not training, as has been pointed out- and it would not work for horses- electric fencing does not really work for horses, I have two who will "grin and bear it" and walk through any fence.

The animals that has reputably been "trained" not to crib or weave with a shock collar will, I can assure you, return to this behaviour once the collar is removed and the punishment withdrawn.

Almost nothing on earth will cure weaving- a number of things will prevent it, not allowing the horse to become bored in the first place is one of them.

Windsuckers can be treated, in the first instance, with a course of Gastroguard and a mild sedative- if the cause is ulcers the behaviour sometimes goes away when the cause is removed, but it is a very addictive behaviour.

OT here, but relevant- has anyone ever tried hypnosis on a dog or horse??

Bonnie, do you know of it being tried???


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## Shortpig (Dec 13, 2007)

I can think of a few uses for that shock collar. I said get a glass don't be drinking out of the carton.

Didn't I tell you to leave that cake alone until after dinner? Hello! I'm talking to you! For the last time I said get out of that bed and clean your room.

Okay so you get the point!

Have a great day!


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## Georgine (Dec 13, 2007)

In answer to Matt's question about using twitches........I don't like twitches but find that for some of my 27 little ones I need to use a small plastic clip (Homedepot purchase) which works like a snap clothes pin, and I "clip it on their nose" during hoof trimming and sometimes when I am clipping legs if they are jumpy.

In a short while they stop the unwanted actions and concentrate on the clip.

I have put the clip on myself and it pinches, but is bearable.

Any of our horses that were raised here are well behaved due to a lot of handling from birth.

Of the ones that we have purchased a couple seem like they were never touched so they are more of a challenge.

With the minis I find that lots of handling and taking them to fairs and events where they get a lot of human interaction usually settles them.

Interestingly and off topic a bit, I heard yesterday on the radio that there are more deaths due to horse accidents than due to any other animal versus human event. (likely because there are more humans interacting with horses than with tigers/bears/sharks.. etc)

That being said full size horses can certainly harm us and require us to be in control and safe.

Even our minis could kill, if a kick is placed in the wrong spot.


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## Farmhand (Dec 13, 2007)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I am very sorry to say but this was a "set-up" question just to get people to argue on this forum so some certain people can laugh at it..


Looks like it worked to some extent OH!


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## kaykay (Dec 13, 2007)

I want to say this. I am hurt beyond words. Never in a million years did I think the person who started this thread would do something like this. I feel betrayed by several people in this "group" that I have liked and admired for years and other people who had a part in this. I am so shocked that I dont even have the words to express fully how I feel or how disappointed I am in the people behind this. The only thing I can imagine is that these people's lives are lacking something that would enable them to act in this way and say the things that have been said. For these people who know who they are I feel sad for you. This has definitely been a wake up call for me.


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## Katiean (Dec 13, 2007)

Mary Lou, I thought this question went a lot smoother than a lot of threads in the past. I guess the laugh is on them?


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## maestoso (Dec 13, 2007)

I am confused . . . . I don't understand shortpigs post and I don't see a set-up either. Perhaps I have missed something....


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## Farmhand (Dec 13, 2007)

Katiean said:


> Mary Lou, I thought this question went a lot smoother than a lot of threads in the past. I guess the laugh is on them?


And "I" learned some things from it.








Matt Drown said:


> I am confused . . . . I don't understand shortpigs post Perhaps I have missed something....


I think she was making a joke about using it on "kids" that don't listen


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## outlawridge (Dec 13, 2007)

Now I'm confused too.



Mary Lou, can you please explain a bit more?


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## Georgine (Dec 13, 2007)

Clarification requested please, from Mary Lou.

You are saying that the Topic Starter put this on to see what developed, and it was a "set up"?

You are also saying that you were aware that it was started for this reason?


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## KrisP (Dec 13, 2007)

Ok first of all many of you won't know me, but many will. I do lurk, haven't posted in a long time BECAUSE of things like this, shame on several of you, hope you enjoy being so bitter and mean!

What has happened is that several "long standing highly thought of" members of this forum (little beginnings) belong to another forum where among other things they scheme up topics to bring here to start fights, then laugh at all of you on their other forum.

In seeing who some of them are I am TRULY APPALLED AT YOU!! I thought you were good, kind, sensitive people, boy was I ever wrong!

Just shows, anyone can be anyone on the internet. Believe maybe, maybe 1 1/10th of what you read and realize often others are laughing at you trying to make you look like a fool.

MA, (miniventures) I almost cried seeing you involved in this, it really hurt.

Going back to lurk now, and no, will NOT be logging back on.

kj


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Dec 13, 2007)

There are lots and lots of topics that are meant to get things jazzed up. If it makes people think, makes people laugh or makes people learn...then where is the problem? Obviously this topic is something real and used and people have different opinions on. I can tell you that the OP didn't mean to hurt anyone--that is just not her style. Did it get people talking? Yup. Is there anyone attacked? nope.


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## Georgine (Dec 13, 2007)

Thank you for the information Kris P.

I will take it that you have answered my questions asked, which I posted prior to your post.

I really loved this forum and have found it so helpful in many ways.

I am not sure what I will do now.

Probably get more housework done


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## kaykay (Dec 13, 2007)

You know I am trying really hard here to keep control. But this statement is yet another out and out lie

I can tell you that the OP didn't mean to hurt anyone--that is just not her style. Did it get people talking?

I will copy and paste for everyone to see. At least own up to what you all did and stop hiding

I have way more respect for people who present themselves honestly then people who present themselves one way and act in total opposite when they think other people cant see them


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## Marty (Dec 13, 2007)

_What has happened is that several "long standing highly thought of" members of this forum (little beginnings) belong to another forum where among other things they scheme up topics to bring here to start fights, then laugh at all of you on their other forum._

OH MY GOSH Krispy.......It's great to see you as always, You know I love you, but I really hope you are mistaken about this.











For those that don't know Krispy, she is a very knowledgable and great person, and a breeder that I have highly respected for a good many years. She also doesn't play games so I fear she is correct. Oh my.


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## Georgine (Dec 13, 2007)

One last note from me and I think I'll take a break.

I am an old retired banker and integrity means a lot to me.

A little quote I used often with my children was "If you always tell the truth, you don't have to remember what you said"

I am not as experienced as many of you are with "the ways of the cyber space world" but I can tell you I do not like being "set up" and it sounds like there are a lot of games being played.

I am serious about my animals and living a good life and learning more things for the betterment of myself and my animals.

I love jokes and laughing and good clean fun.

I guess I am just surprised and sorry this happened.

If I have said things that gave you a laugh, I hope it was because I meant to make you laugh, not because I am a "laughable person".


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## Shortpig (Dec 13, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> I am confused . . . . I don't understand shortpigs post and I don't see a set-up either. Perhaps I have missed something....



Sorry Matt my post relates to use on humans not animals it was a joke, I tend to have an extreme sense of humor at times. Think children in the house growing up and you will see the humor in it.

Shortpig


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 13, 2007)

KrisP said:


> MA, (miniventures) I almost cried seeing you involved in this, it really hurt.
> 
> Going back to lurk now, and no, will NOT be logging back on.
> 
> kj


First off Krispy glad it brought you out of the woodwork I have missed you so much! Email me once in a while will you please





and all I can say is WOW and if this is all true(and I have NEVER HAD A REASON NOT TO TRUST KRIPSY or ML EVER) all I can say is WOW good job... pulled the wool over my eyes big time FOR YEARS so yep everyone LAUGH AWAY you got me and got me good but trust me... fool me once shame on me.. I can promise you it wont happen a 2nd time. Truly disappointed in you hurt and disappointed more then you can ever know.






... Happy Holidays

Is it any wonder I choose to surround myself with my animals.. at least no matter what they are honest


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## Alex (Dec 13, 2007)

I just dont get it...

What is the point of doing all of this?



This is a place to LEARN, correct people, give suggestions! You people must not realize that Mary Lou has put so much work into this place. For it to be a fun place to learn.

This was a perfectly fine topic to discuss about, but you ignorant people had to make a joke about it and not give people this chance to learn.

What good is it doing the people on this forum, by hummilliating them for fun. AAARRRGGGG





I just dont get it !!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 13, 2007)

guess we know now who is real and who is not -actions sure speak pretty loud but sadly your words spoke loud as well

Many of you I expected it from... but I will say yep a couple of you really fooled everyone props to you

I once again need to say I am disappointed-- you all didnt delete your threads fast enough as I HAVE THEM totally RUDE I could get equally as rude and really question what it is that makes you all feel you have so much more knowledge but frankly not worth my time I am horrified that I trusted many of you although I will say some of you showed your true colors from day one.

Your characters really came out and to think you all "claim" to be healers(now who is going to heal the feelings you hurt the trust you betrayed?)

"Healers" now that is really the saddest part of this whole thing and perhaps why so many don't believe at this point why should they? Saddest part is that really the joke in the end is on you and I dont think most of you even realize it yet

Hope you all can really find your "path" this holiday season and find the peace you must be lacking in your lives


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## ChrystalPaths (Dec 13, 2007)

KrisP said:


> Ok first of all many of you won't know me, but many will. I do lurk, haven't posted in a long time BECAUSE of things like this, shame on several of you, hope you enjoy being so bitter and mean!
> 
> What has happened is that several "long standing highly thought of" members of this forum (little beginnings) belong to another forum where among other things they scheme up topics to bring here to start fights, then laugh at all of you on their other forum.
> 
> ...


This is so untrue. Several folks who are friends saw things on LB getting way too mean and serious as of late and this was intended to lighten things up, and it would have been revealed as such. It was never meant to demean anyone. It is the holiday season, we are all supposed to be loving and supportive of each other, and it seems as though all that is happening lately is bickering.

As it went along the collar discussion got very interesting really, and I did not see any harm done by MA or anyone who responded. I was quite proud to see this thread as an adult discussion instead of a mean vent as so many posts become. Those of you judging MA or Larry or anyone else involved...judge not lest ye be judged. Again this was not malicicious as portrayed by the above poster. None of the "people from another forum" sit around and scheme to harm LB or it's members, that is just a mean thing to say and very untrue. I for one, value this forum family and have enjoyed being a member. If you prefer I leave because I belong to another forum, just ask, many belong to other forums. Those forums have plenty to say about LB but no harm done. I hope this will go away.

Kay, seriously, think...you know most of us...it is the holidays and several threads got heated recently, the intent was to have a bit of short lived fun, and that's all. I would hope that years worth of membership and friendship here would overbalance any faux pau that may have just occurred. No one is perfect, most of all me.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 13, 2007)

Dimimore said:


> This is so untrue. Several folks who are friends saw things on LB getting way too mean and serious as of late and this was intended to lighten things up, and it would have been revealed as such. It was never meant to demean anyone.



Well I have it.. in black and white and not even all of it but trust me enough.. and trust me again... NOT MEANT TO DEMEAN ANYONE are you KIDDING?????? WOW what do you feel DEMEAMING IS THEN?

Cause really name calling, laughing and making fun of.... all sounds pretty demeaning in my book.

Come on now deleting posts doesnt mean that what you put out there on the internet isnt there for all to see-demanding to know and trying to "out" who told what you all have been doing for MONTHS NOW isnt going to change that really guys the jig is up

it was done and said at least be honest about it.. sigh


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## kaykay (Dec 13, 2007)

dimi please stop. I have read your entire secret forum. If you all meant no harm why are you all hiding and in secret?? Why is your secret forum now gone?? Seems to me if you had nothing to be ashamed of you wouldnt need to remove it. Or use secret names etc.

You all fooled me for years but no more. It is ONLY out of respect for Mary Lou that I am not copying and pasting what you all said. She has been through enough.

You and your entire group should apologize to everyone on this forum and then leave.

Just so we dont put all the heat on two people there were many other names on this secret forum. Rabbit you at least have always shown your true colors on the forum but I have to say you were even more vile on this secret forum. Your posts didnt suprise me at all


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## hhpminis (Dec 13, 2007)

Wow! Guess it was a good thing I was out with ponies this afternoon. What I missed probably wasn't worth the effort of frustration I would have felt.

White light right back at all of you! Whatever the heck that means! HAHA


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Dec 13, 2007)

What happened here was a case of a joke that went too far. All of us got carried away goofing around took it too far without meaning to. It happens time and again--no one is perfect. The "back porch" type area the thread refferenced is meant for venting--a place to blow off steam and let it all out--suppsedly a safe place to get it all out, dump it and move on. It is also one tiny part of a bigger picture and not the focus at all. This episode was a case of "hey--let's find the nuttiest, craziest thing and see if we can get things fired up". We do it to each other to get things going when it is too quiet too! Yes--I do admit there is one person I named that gets on my last nerve! I vented to friends about it and let it go. I am sorry now that we went too far with it, but sorrier still that what was meant as something goofy has turned into something so very hurtfull. I can tell you that this was NOT the intent. What was a joke--and would have been admitted to on here--has instead now turned ugly. It is indeed ironic--we were talking about things being dull and needing fired up and now we have it.  No matter what--people are people and no one is perfect. We all have gripes and we all have pet peeves--you just don't expect for them to blindside you. No one here can honestly say they never said anything about anyone else, vented and then got over it. This was a joking way of handling that. What stinks is that those involved know those parts copied and being passed around are one tiny piece of a much larger thing. I admit to fanning the flames a bit in good fun. I will also stand by Maryann and say she is a great lady full of warmth and love for people and animals. This was tongue in cheek silliness now turned mean.


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## Miniv (Dec 13, 2007)

Oh good Grief............

I hope this thread will be locked soon.

The original question was a valid one and as I was reading everyone, there were wonderful valid responses.

Sadly someone on here is very vindictive and I don't deal with people like that.

Let's get back to the subjects at hand............

MA

PS: I had no opinion of my own on the original question. I learned a lot just by reading. I hope others did too.


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## maestoso (Dec 13, 2007)

I will say that I am not surprised that some "long standing members" did this, and if this is what they need to feel secure, than have at it. But just so you are clear, the joke is on you.

I just want to say to some of the others on this particular thread, that while I may have a different opinion on this topic, or any topic, I certainly respect yours, and what I respect even more is the fact that you have no interest in being apart of the nonsense that some people call entertaining.

For those of you who know about this secret forum or thread or whatever, could someone please PM me or email me at [email protected] If you have copied it I would be interested in seeing it.

Thanks

Fairytale and Miniv, I think your intentions are quite obvious. Perhaps this forum that you go to to vent should be kept private so that you are not hurting anyones feelings. You are right to say that we all have said things about other people, and probably mean things at times, the difference is that anyone with a heart and a little class wouldn't do it in an open forum.


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## Alex (Dec 13, 2007)

Well said Matt. Jokes on them...




I would also like a copy of that secret forum.


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## shelia (Dec 13, 2007)

I want a copy too! where is this secret forum?





Shelia B.


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## woodnldy (Dec 13, 2007)

Well the intention was to get a lively discussion going. That was what happened. It was a good discussion I thought . Also a interesting one that brought out many points. personally I am not ashamed to say I belong to the other forum. The people on it are good people who sincerely try to help . Oh It is a private forum, not a public one so the person who decided to go to Mary Lou was badly off base. If the thread is copied and passed around ,"You are passing private thoughts and things said around " . Like someone copying and pasting private messages. It will probably be done because several took things personally that were not meant to be . I am sorry there were hurt feeling, Just remember we are all human and do make mistakes.

My best to all

Cheryl


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## iluvwalkers (Dec 13, 2007)

*[SIZE=12pt]Shelia, if they told it wouldn't be a secret



...I'll shut up now...



...Nikki[/SIZE]*


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## maestoso (Dec 13, 2007)

The idea of a mistake is that you learn from it. So hopefully, if it is indeed as innocent as you say, the people involved will learn from it.


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## outlawridge (Dec 13, 2007)

Even though I was gone for several hours, I am kind of getting the jist of what I was confused about prior. But I still don't understand a few things. 

First off, "we were talking about things being dull and needing fired up" WHAT?? There is nothing dull about Lil Beginnings, and certainly things don't need to be "fired up" to be interesting.

Secondly, "What happened here was a case of a joke that went too far". Why on earth would ANYONE need to make ANY subject a hidden joke? Whether or not they will fess up later?? (and saying that the joke would have been divulged later does not make it okay).

Isn't this a legitimate place of learning and sharing where members, especially newbies, TRUST other members to share their knowledge and thoughts in HONESTY and FORTHRIGHTNESS and INTEGRITY???

Even thinking up this kind of a joke is senseless to me. It only plays others against each other and upsets them or whatever.. point is, you are just sitting back to see what happens while you "play". That has no place, no matter how innocently begun, ANYWHERE. It simply is not how you treat other people. I am all for a good joke but not through falsehood or pretense or deception. As was posted, this was a perfectly good topic to discuss and learn from, so why the deception? and where is the Joke in it??

The deception is where the harm is because trust is a delicate privaledge. Whether or not intent to hurt was there, is not relevant to me. Intent to deceive was. There is no such thing as a little lie or a little coniving or a little con. It is still the act, regardless of the process. And it is still wrong. I am not being judgemental, I am being truthful, honest, upright, and calling black black and white white. I am also not mad nor am I hurt. I came back to Lil Beginnings after a long pause, was here since 1997 before. I left because of the spitefullness and viciousness of some of the replies to posts. Now I'm just saddened and disappointed. I will stay but no longer be so open.

Even if this post had been a "feel good" post, it would still be the same because it's based on deception no matter how you look at it. The post topic may be factual, but the intent of the thread is not.

I very much hope those responsible and involved have learned from this. You don't fool with people and maintain their trust or respect, regardless of the subject matter or intent.


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## mininik (Dec 13, 2007)

Wow... I definitely missed something.


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## maplegum (Dec 13, 2007)

It's such a shame.

This is not the place I thought it was.


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## OwnedBySockit (Dec 13, 2007)

I have learned a lot, ignored stuff I didn't think would work for me, asked a few questions, laughed at things, got mad at things, etc..I could go on and on.

My point is this is a open forum so there are many, many people who's age, background, experience and abilities vary greatly. This will ALWAYS cause problems, debates, disagreements (whatever you choose to call it). Does that make it bad, no, not in my opinion anyway.

I belong to a few forums and "issues" occur regularly on all of them, that's part of life, especially in cyberspace when people are sitting in front of a monitor vs. talking face to face.

So some of these members have another place to chat...how is that any different than sending an email or PM, other than it doesn't clutter your inbox, you read when you want to, respond when you want to, etc. The only difference I see is someone who wan't a member of the "other place" found out...I must say, I don't know what was said but if someone was complaining to a friend,wether it be one friend face to face or 500 friends on a private forum, they are going to be caught up in the moment and say many things, possibly "ugly" and hurtful things.........I don't know about you all but that is why I vent to my friends, so I don't say those kind of things to the person or people I am upset with. It gives me the chance to "get things off my chest" so to speak and once the anger or annoyance is gone I can deal more appropriately with the situation whatever it may be....

That's just my 2 cents for what it's worth......I've been reading on here for quite a while, had issues joining, got that taken care of and read daily and will continue to do so.


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## lvponies (Dec 13, 2007)

If all this is going to be discussed on a public forum......can the true issues be explained instead of some know stuff others don't?? Guess I'm clueless cuz I just don't understand what had happened or why?? What is going on? Why did it happen? Who was involved? Why does it always have to be so cryptic here? Splain to the rest of us, Lucy!!!!


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## ChrystalPaths (Dec 13, 2007)

I respectfully requested this thread be canceled and closed. I have seen far less destructive threads closed, please close this before more pain is inflicted.

We did prove one point......our forum was a secret for one reason. Had all of the petty people here known about all of us "communicating, psychic, sensitive, etc. people" here on LB we would have been condemned and scorned, just like we are being now.

Most of you have known us for years.....upon years.......yet you now are crucifying a certain few because of one harmless incident that was meant in jest.

YES, it was a mistake, we admit that. Should we crucify you for the mistakes you've made as HUMAN BEINGS???

PS thank you OwnedBySockit, you speak a great truth


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## runamuk (Dec 13, 2007)

OwnedBySockit said:


> I have learned a lot, ignored stuff I didn't think would work for me, asked a few questions, laughed at things, got mad at things, etc..I could go on and on.
> 
> My point is this is a open forum so there are many, many people who's age, background, experience and abilities vary greatly. This will ALWAYS cause problems, debates, disagreements (whatever you choose to call it). Does that make it bad, no, not in my opinion anyway.
> 
> ...









very well stated.

I completely agree.


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## KanoasDestiny (Dec 13, 2007)

I guess I'm more surprised then anything by this thread. I know that a lot of people are hurt...on both sides of this issue. I think that the people here have a right to be upset, that they have been hurt in debates that started out as jokes. But I also understand that this is not the only forum on the internet, and members here have other places that they go to have discussions and vent their frustrations. I know how things can start out as fun and before you know it, something happens and things go too far.

I happen to know the person who "outted" the person behind Fugly Horse Of The Day, and although it was retaliation for someone who was hurt, I think that it proved that no matter what precautions you take, nothing online is private. Don't say something that you'll regret, should someone else see it. I hope that this proves an important lesson for everyone out there, to think before you type. I also hope this blows over soon, and that friendships can be saved.





Let's just try to remember that even though this may not have been the best thing for these forum members to do, most of them are responisble for sharing the knowledge that has helped to save many of the horses on this forum. One stupid thing, shouldn't outweigh the good that they have contributed to this forum. And just to clarify, I was not a member on the secret forum. I just know some of the members involved, and I would still look to them for sound advice if I needed it.


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## Katiean (Dec 13, 2007)

I don't know who was involved in this. But, maybe it is why I don't socialize much. You never know who you can trust.


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## lvponies (Dec 13, 2007)

Still don't know much, but maybe those who felt it was "fun" to poke fun of LB and it's members should just stay on their "secret" forum so they have a place to "vent".


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## EAD Minis (Dec 13, 2007)

* The forum was a place where i could come and people didnt seem to make fun of me and were actually very nice people where I could go for help...that trust is gone now and I am very ashamed of all of you involved. Goes to show you cant trust anyone but yourself.



*


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## Reble (Dec 13, 2007)

It's the Season





Not sure what all happened





Forgiveness is a Choice

Do not use the excuse that you are waiting until you feel like forgiving – it will probably never happen. It only hurts you if you continue to let your emotions rule your life. Forgiveness is a choice! It doesn't matter how you spell forgiveness, whether it be forgivness or forgivenes, the fact remains, forgiveness is a choice!

If you really forgive someone, you no longer blame that person, even though they may be guilty.

If you do not blame a person, you cannot resent them.

If you do not resent them you cannot hold any bitterness in your heart.

If you do not hold bitterness then you do not get all emotionally tied up with anger and hate towards that person.

If you do not hate then you do not stay emotionally and physically bound with illnesses


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## lvponies (Dec 13, 2007)

I guess it all boils down to the fact that people can present themselves as nice, decent people online when in reality they really aren't in real life. I've had experience with someone myself this year who I trusted implicitly and because I did trust them, they were able to hurt me very badly. You just never know who is on the other side of that screen and who they truly are. You just never know who to trust and you end up not being able to trust anyone or to believe in their "niceness". I thought LB was different, but maybe it's not.


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## Irish Hills Farm (Dec 13, 2007)

If anyone has a copy of this so called secret forum, I'd like to have a copy to read. Please email a copy to [email protected]

Thanks.


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## Leeana (Dec 13, 2007)

What the heck happened here? Anyone care to PM me and let fill me in as i think i am missing allot here. I am very very lost ......


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## lvponies (Dec 13, 2007)

I would really appreciate a PM telling me what exactly happened too.

Thanks!!


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## iluvwalkers (Dec 13, 2007)

We did prove one point......our forum was a secret for one reason. Had all of the petty people here known about all of us "communicating, psychic, sensitive, etc. people" here on LB we would have been condemned and scorned, just like we are being now.

*[SIZE=12pt]this statement does not make sense to me...i don't think people are comdeming you all "communicating, phychics, sensitive, ect. people" for having a private place to talk, from the sounds of it it was used to make fun and talk about people, i DON'T agree with OwedBySockit, venting to a friend is way different then a bunch of women chatting about how to start fights and making fun of others unless your venting is different then mine



. suprised i am NOT but saddened yes, Nikki[/SIZE]*


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## hhpminis (Dec 13, 2007)

Kim and others that are hurt, I guess I may be writing to myself here to.

The majority of the people on here are all joined by one thing, and that is the love of the miniature horse. They are 99% of the time, nice, kind, people. Some of us are very passionate about certain things and have different triggers that put us at defense.

I know a couple of the people involved and I am very surprised that they would have taken part in it but the fact of the matter is, they still are usually very kind people (although, my guard will be up a bit for a while). I am sure they wish they hadn't, and that some of the things that they got caught saying could have been erased a bit quicker. They didn't, and some read them. They feel like they were treasoned as someone gave away their secret forum site.

So you see, the ones that were truly hurt by this are those that started it in the first place. We stayed civil, discussed our differing opinions like adults, and it ruined their fun.


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## lvponies (Dec 13, 2007)

Don't you think that the ones on the "secret forum" are just upset that they were outted in such a public way? Can you truly believe apologies from those who made fun of LB and it's members and tried to turn us into a joke? I think they are just "sorry" that they were found out.


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## Leeana (Dec 13, 2007)

Okay i got the background info and i for one am just completely blown away!

Lilbeginnings is a very public forum, i have spent more hours on here in the past 3 (almost four) years and we have been threw thick and thin. I dont care what anybody has to say behind our backs here, but i know the good the people on this forum have done and when we come together we can do great things on here. I am just at loss for words here. I dont know the exact people involved yet, and actually im kind of hoping i dont have to find out, but i will draw my own conclusions


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## hhpminis (Dec 13, 2007)

Kim, all I am saying is "Dont throw the baby out with the bath water"


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## Reble (Dec 13, 2007)

Just close this now, would be best for all, not horse related anymore?

Why is this allowed to keep going on and on and on....





Please do not tell me not too read it, if I do not like it... It is on the top of our topics here..



Hello Monitors.


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## Marty (Dec 13, 2007)

I've been to The Path for healing. I had lots of questions about communicating with the dead, physic stuff, things like that. I wanted them to teach me how to contact Michael and find signs from him. I trusted them completely, bared my heart and soul there several times in my darkest times. They helped me; they were always there for me; good to me. They are healers.

I don't know why they did this. I didn't know anything about it but I think it was really a bad stupid idea which some have already admitted they screwed up. Sounds like they were experimenting. And someone mentioned it had something to do to "lighten up the forum" in regards to the holiday season? I'm sorry, but I do not understand. I think it's wrong to set people up to fight on purpose. If anyone wants to do something to lighten up the forum for the holidays, start caroling and put some red and green scrunchies on your horses.


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## Minimor (Dec 13, 2007)

Yep, I missed out on it all too--I didn't even look at this thread until I saw the other one started by Matt--from there I had to come here to see what the big deal was. Now I'm glad I did, because I learned something today--I'm not surprised at what was going on but have to say I am a little surprised at who is involved.

Obviously I haven't been to the secret forum--and have no interest in going there--but it's interesting to read here how those involved figure that it was all just a harmless joke until it became public knowledge here...then it suddenly becomes mean and nasty. What an interesting concept. Your little clique isn't at all mean and nasty, but everyone else here is both of those things, eh?

I could care less what was actually posted on this secret forum, but I would find it interesting to know who all is on it. I've figured out a few from this thread but obviously there are others. What a bunch of fakes. I would vote to have you all banned for a certain time...a time out shall we say? Lucky for you that's not my decision to make.

And I'm very happy to see those that aren't in that secret forum group--most of the ones here that I like the most aren't a part of it, and I'm sure glad I didn't have those people figured wrong!!


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## tagalong (Dec 13, 2007)

OwnedBySockit said:


> I have learned a lot, ignored stuff I didn't think would work for me, asked a few questions, laughed at things, got mad at things, etc..I could go on and on.
> 
> My point is this is a open forum so there are many, many people who's age, background, experience and abilities vary greatly. This will ALWAYS cause problems, debates, disagreements (whatever you choose to call it). Does that make it bad, no, not in my opinion anyway.
> 
> ...



WORD to *OwnedbySockit*.... that means I agree with her for those who do not visit any other type of message boards.

I can understand the hurt that some felt - but cannot understand the need they had to make sure that others were hurt as well. What good did that do? Someone has to explain that one to me.

And posting the link to the other forum in that other thread - well IMO that was a sad thing to do. What purpose did that serve? Simply fanning the fire, playing yet more games - and standing back to watch the fun?? I wonder.

I guess I simply do not care for such battles - and ones that some members seem to relish in - being played out here on the forum as if it was your personal battlefield.

Everyone needs to stop playing games IMO - on both "sides".

And already - the PMs appear to be flying and the witchhunt has begun - one member just PMed me to accuse me of being on the secret forum and saying she knew it all along... based on my comments in the other "shock collar" thread. She is wrong - but whatever - why let facts get in the way. See *Lisa* - I was concerned that would happen - and so it has...

Nice. Once the fire starts - it is hard to put out. And people who were never involved are going to get burned along the way....

*Marty* - I can feel how hurt you are... *((((HUGS))))*


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## Irish Hills Farm (Dec 13, 2007)

> I've been to The Path for healing. I don't know why they did this. I didn't know anything about it


Ok, please explain something to me. Was this "secret forum" set up with different categories, same as the LB Forum is set up?


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## Marty (Dec 13, 2007)

Yes.


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## Irish Hills Farm (Dec 13, 2007)

And you were never curious as to what was being talked about in the other areas? I mean, which category was lets talk about the LB people. Was the title of that forum a secret code? Name in such a way that no one would want to look there?


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## maestoso (Dec 13, 2007)

Karma


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## mininik (Dec 13, 2007)

Sheryl, there WAS a forum set up in the list for "venting"... I found out in the web archives... unfortunately, all you can see is how the forum was set up, no posts, and I couldn't tell if you needed a separate code to get in.


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## Irish Hills Farm (Dec 13, 2007)

Nicole

I do not doubt there was a secret forum. What I do doubt is people saying they were there but didn't look around and know nothing about the bad stuff that went on there.

Matt - you funny.


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## mininik (Dec 13, 2007)

I understand what you're thinking, I was just answering your question to Marty on how the secret forum was set up, that's all.


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## Irish Hills Farm (Dec 13, 2007)

Gotcha.


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## Minimor (Dec 13, 2007)

I'm sorry, Marty, I believe that you were taken in by a bunch of FAKES.

Fake in more ways than one.

Now it seems that the people that are most worth knowing and talking to here are leaving, or have already left, the forum. Maybe that was the intent of all this, to try & chase some people away. Good for you.

Karma. Yes. What goes around comes around, and my Christmas wish for you all....may Santa bring you what you truly deserve this Christmas.


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## KanoasDestiny (Dec 13, 2007)

Sheryl~Irish Hills Farm said:


> And you were never curious as to what was being talked about in the other areas? I mean, which category was lets talk about the LB people. Was the title of that forum a secret code? Name in such a way that no one would want to look there?


I'm pretty sure that when Marty was active in that forum, playing jokes was the least of her concerns. Michael has been gone for almost a year and a half now, and while Marty might have been going to the "secret forum" for comfort, love and help, I doubt she was active in the other things going on there. She truly seemed shocked and upset over finding out that the place she went for healing, could be the "secret forum" this forum was talking about.


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## OwnedBySockit (Dec 13, 2007)

Sheryl~Irish Hills Farm said:


> And you were never curious as to what was being talked about in the other areas? I mean, which category was lets talk about the LB people. Was the title of that forum a secret code? Name in such a way that no one would want to look there?


OK, here I go again, but I'm gonna guess this forum was just like any other, so in reality this was not some "secret forum" of only LB members who went there to talk about other members, but just another one of the million forums on the internet. Taking Marty's response re: healing, and Dimimores response about reiki, communicating, etc. that forum was based on on those things and the members were people with those interests.

Again, I wasn't there, don't know what was said, and obviously based on the many posts here that I have read a lot of you don't know either, so my question now is this.....why is it such a big deal that members of LB were also members of another forum?????? I am a member of 6 forums and there are members that overlap, does this mean we should all make everyone aware of the other forums they are members of just in case???? Makes no sense to me. I do understand people were hurt, but they should discuss the issue privately and see if it can be resolved or not, not in public. JMHO.

Also, if I started a thread entitled "mare or stallion for a pet", just to get people's opinions and see if what I had read about stallions for pets was true, would I be wrong???? The correlation between that and this discussion.....my thread would be just to see opnions and how people felt..would there be disagreements/fights/strong voices/uproar/etc? I bet there would be...mares the best, no never have a stallion for a pet, why a stallion,geld him, geldings only for pets, on and on.............



Sheryl~Irish Hills Farm said:


> And you were never curious as to what was being talked about in the other areas? I mean, which category was lets talk about the LB people. Was the title of that forum a secret code? Name in such a way that no one would want to look there?


OK, here I go again, but I'm gonna guess this forum was just like any other, so in reality this was not some "secret forum" of only LB members who went there to talk about other members, but just another one of the million forums on the internet. Taking Marty's response re: healing, and Dimimores response about reiki, communicating, etc. that forum was based on on those things and the members were people with those interests.

Again, I wasn't there, don't know what was said, and obviously based on the many posts here that I have read a lot of you don't know either, so my question now is this.....why is it such a big deal that members of LB were also members of another forum?????? I am a member of 6 forums and there are members that overlap, does this mean we should all make everyone aware of the other forums they are members of just in case???? Makes no sense to me. I do understand people were hurt, but they should discuss the issue privately and see if it can be resolved or not, not in public. JMHO.

Also, if I started a thread entitled "mare or stallion for a pet", just to get people's opinions and see if what I had read about stallions for pets was true, would I be wrong???? The correlation between that and this discussion.....my thread would be just to see opnions and how people felt..would there be disagreements/fights/strong voices/uproar/etc? I bet there would be...mares the best, no never have a stallion for a pet, why a stallion,geld him, geldings only for pets, on and on.............


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