# A Buckskin or Dunskin?



## SampleMM (Feb 17, 2011)

Ever since this filly was born in October I have questioned this. Her dorsal stripe is very prominent and it goes right down her tail. Is this just countershading? Anyone have any ideas?


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## phoebeq (Feb 17, 2011)

I vote Dunskin...That is a pretty sharp stripe. Cutie pie either way


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## heartkranch (Feb 17, 2011)

dunskin


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## SampleMM (Feb 17, 2011)

I will be thrilled if she is a dunskin!!


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## MindyLee (Feb 17, 2011)

My filly looked excatly like that BUT after a yr old, it has disapeared. Now that she's 2 yrs old I can only see a faint line when shes clipped only.

But you never know with minis!


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 17, 2011)

Firstly I am assuming she has a Cream parent and a Dun parent?

Could we see pictures of them?


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 17, 2011)

This is the dorsal strip on River Rose Jumping Jack, I thought he was going to be dunskin, but this year after clipping his neck for sweating he is turning grullo like his dam.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 17, 2011)

I personally think this foal is Grullo, too, but it just is not possible to tell, really, not form pictures!

It is all educated guesswork.....are you going to test her?


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Feb 17, 2011)

I'm going with Rabbitsfizz, one of the parents has to be a dun in order for her to be.

Our little orphan filly Misty has a dark zig-zag dorsal on her back (just where the colored area is, from bout mid-back to tail head) She is out of a buckskin mare and by a black pinto stallion.


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## SampleMM (Feb 17, 2011)

She is out of a buckskin mare and by a buckskin stallion but the stallion has a lot of dun genes in his background. I know what you are going to say Rabbitsfizz but I'm not 100% sure that the sire isn't a dun.



Oh, Mindylee........I hope my filly keeps her stripe. My photos are on a different computer so I'll have to find them and post them a little later.


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## Knottymare (Feb 17, 2011)

I have a GREAT idea. Send her to me and I'll keep an eye on it for you





Darling - that's what she is!


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## RhineStone (Feb 17, 2011)

What is a Dunskin?



I have been involved in the equine industry for 30 years and have never heard that term in any breed. Buckskin, Dun, and Grulla, yes, but never Dunskin.


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## debsminis (Feb 17, 2011)

What a doll!!


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## heartkranch (Feb 17, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> What is a Dunskin?
> 
> 
> 
> I have been involved in the equine industry for 30 years and have never heard that term in any breed. Buckskin, Dun, and Grulla, yes, but never Dunskin.




Its basically a buckskin with the dun gene.

Just like a grulla is a black horse with dun genes and fades the body hair lighter, This a buckskin with the dun genes.


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 17, 2011)

One way to tell if you have a dun is after you clip her this year she will have primitive markings. If you look at the picture I posted on page one you will see dorsal strip and a strip accross the withers, this colt also has leg barring and a dark mask. Unmistakably dun. If she is a buckskin the line will fade.


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## PaintNminis (Feb 17, 2011)

She looks like she might be a Grulla



there is a test now for Dun


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## RhineStone (Feb 17, 2011)

heartkranch said:


> Its basically a buckskin with the dun gene. Just like a grulla is a black horse with dun genes and fades the body hair lighter,


I really don't get into color genetics (can't drive the color!



), but I was under the impression that buckskins and duns were of the same "family", which is why you can register a dun with IBHA, and have different "shades" of buckskin. Black and dun wouldn't be from the same "family". Therefore grulla would also be part of the buckskin family and can be registered with IBHA. What happened to "buttermilk buckskin"?


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## heartkranch (Feb 17, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I really don't get into color genetics (can't drive the color!
> 
> 
> 
> ), but I was under the impression that buckskins and duns were of the same "family", which is why you can register a dun with IBHA, and have different "shades" of buckskin. Black and dun wouldn't be from the same "family". Therefore grulla would also be part of the buckskin family and can be registered with IBHA. What happened to "buttermilk buckskin"?


I really couldn't tell you too much about IBHA, but black/buckskin are colors, dun are markings expressed on a color.


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## chandab (Feb 17, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I really don't get into color genetics (can't drive the color!
> 
> 
> 
> ), but I was under the impression that buckskins and duns were of the same "family", which is why you can register a dun with IBHA, and have different "shades" of buckskin. Black and dun wouldn't be from the same "family". Therefore grulla would also be part of the buckskin family and can be registered with IBHA. What happened to "buttermilk buckskin"?


Genetically they are not; they are created by different genes, and I believe they are at different loci as well. The varying shades of dun are caused by the dun. Buckskin, perlino, palomino, cremello, smokey black and smokey cream are all caused by the cream gene.

Horses only come in two basic colors: red and black. All other colors are caused by modifiers and diluters acting on those base colors.


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## SampleMM (Feb 17, 2011)

Okay, I found this photo of the sire. Now, check out his legs...almost looks like leg barrings.


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## heartkranch (Feb 17, 2011)

SampleMM said:


> Okay, I found this photo of the sire. Now, check out his legs...almost looks like leg barrings.



Yep. he's a dunskin


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## SampleMM (Feb 17, 2011)

heartkranch said:


> Yep. he's a dunskin


Wow, I think I may faint!!!!!! I have always wanted one but never really thought about Mister being one but did think it was odd that his legs had that barring.

Here's a photo of the dam.


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## Bonny (Feb 17, 2011)

I am a bit confused.... Will a buckskin NOT have a dorsal stripe?


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## rubyviewminis (Feb 17, 2011)

Only the dun gene can express a true dorsal stripe. Buckskin is a bay horse with cream. Many Grulla/grullo color horses are creamy tan when under 2 years old. I am still waiting to see if my buckskin filly is a dunskin pinto. Her dam is a bay pinto, sire is a grullo pinto. Her sire carried the cream gene, she tests heterozygous for cream, tobiano, black, and agouti. When clipped last summer her cream color turned to a dark grey body color with a dorsal stripe, but no other indicators. This summer might tell the true story. There is no confirmed test for dun. With dna testing from dam and sire they can "indicate" the horse may be dun, but no gene test for dun. If there is it is new and I will have it done on her!


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## Bonny (Feb 17, 2011)

My 'silver Buckskin ' Katie has a dark dorsal stripe down her back. Is it possible she is dunskin? or maybe she is a silver dun?

( she had a silver black filly sire was tested neg for silver)

I can get pics of her entire stripe.






in this pic you can see how her stripe is still dark


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## rubyviewminis (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes but only if she has a dun parent, I am not sure about the genetics of having dun genes without a direct parent carrying it. My filly's dam had a red dun sire, her mother doesn't show any expressions of dun.






This is her baby picture, then right after clipping at 2 months and you can see the difference in color.


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## Bonny (Feb 17, 2011)

Sorry to hijack the thread here...

But this is a pic of Katies dorsal stripe, and the other pictures of her are posted above.


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## cretahillsgal (Feb 17, 2011)

Yes Holly, I think Katie is a silver dunskin. I would have to go and look up her parents again to see.

I don't think that a buckskin will have a definite dorsal stripe. Countershading maybe. And probably ought to look for other dun characteristics like shoulder barring, leg barring and facial masking.

I get the question all the time if my stallion will produce buckskins or a "line back buckskins"

I try to tell them that a line back buckskin is really a dunskin. And no, my stallion does not carry dun. Only chance of that happening is him bred to my red dun mare.


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## Jill (Feb 17, 2011)

I think she looks buckskin + dun. If you want, just send her over and I can tell you for sure, and I wouldn't mind keeping her





We have two buckskin + dun girls, one regular and one silver. Love the color... really, I love any color better with a dorsal stripe and buckskin's always easy on the eyes


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## Bonny (Feb 17, 2011)

Ok now I am excited... because when omeone said facial markings, I wasnt sure what that meant but she has a shading on her face and both of her shoulders have a 'dirty' area.

On the papers I have her mom is listed as a buckskin....her sire a cremello.

But I have no idea if they truely are or not as I havent seen her parents.

All I have is the names...

sire- Morris Kato K

dam- Huny House Farms Rouge & a Half


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## Mona (Feb 17, 2011)

A true buckskin (one without dun) CAN have a dorsal stripe, but a dun MUST always have one. Also, SampleMM, I too owned a stallion that had those same type of leg bars and I suspected dun, but I was assured he was not a dun, although I never had him tested. He was the son of Hunt House Farm's Medalion.


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## rubyviewminis (Feb 17, 2011)

True, based on either the sooty gene or countershading. I think my bay mare with the red dun sire has countershading.

http://www.ultimatehorsesite.com/colors/dun.html

http://www.mustangs4us.com/Horse%20Colors/dun.htm


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## Amoreminiatures (Feb 17, 2011)

Beautiful little Dunskin or Buckskin Dun.. Very Nice by the way


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## SampleMM (Feb 17, 2011)

Wow, thanks everybody for all the responses. I am always blown away with everyone's willingness to help!! Knottymare and Jill, we can flip a coin and see who gets her.



She is the sassiest thing that ever walked on four legs and she hasn't a clue that she's the tiniest one on the farm. I really think she is a dunskin but now that I know there is a test for dun, I shall have that done.



Again, thanks everyone.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Feb 17, 2011)

I don't know what she is, but just wanted to say she looks to have the most darling little head


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 18, 2011)

I'm going to post a full picture of my grullo boy so hopefully you can see the primitive markings I'm talking about. I hope you can see the mask is darker then the body. He doen't have any white, I just hadn't clipped his legs yet. This was his color last fall, now his body color is turning blue, hence grullo.


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## rcfarm (Feb 18, 2011)

I had a colt out of a red dun (dam) and a dark bay stud. Looks just like yours, well he turned out a Grullo. So thats what I am guessing.


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## SampleMM (Feb 18, 2011)

Thanks for posting that Riverrose, now I can see why you are leaning toward a grulla. I know what I'm going to be doing today........studying grulla/grullo horses. I love any type of dun or buckskin so no matter what her true color is I won't be disappointed.





Lovely colt you have there and I maybe I can see him at one of the shows as I think you are East Coast, right?

RCFarm do you have any photos you could post?

Parmela, thank you for the nice compliment.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 18, 2011)

I have to say, RR, that your very smart colt looks as if he is a Bay Dun, to me, not a Grullo!

That baby coat, Sample, will not stay, all my Grullo foals have been born that colour and it is unlikely, even if he were to turn out to be a Bucksin or a Dun or both (or green with pink stripes) he would stay the baby colour!

In Europe a Black Dun (Grullo) is often still called a Blue Dun, this is because, mostly, they are sort of blue.......






Grullo (Black Dun) foal.


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 18, 2011)

I thought this colt was dunskin too, until three weeks ago when I brought him into the indoor to get him ready for ECMHC spring Fling show that is scheduled for April. I clipped his neck to start sweating it, and low and behold it is the same blue grey color as his dam that is a grullo. Seems that they don't get their true grullo color till almost two years of age. Surprise, surprise. Any how I gave this colt to my Grand son, as I think he is a winner. Vet just checked him and no way is he ready to be gelded. what a shame. Guess my daughter will have to show him until we can get him gelded. Watch for us in the show ring, and hopefully at Nationals.


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## Mona (Feb 18, 2011)

Riverrose28 said:


> I thought this colt was dunskin too, until three weeks ago when I brought him into the indoor to get him ready for ECMHC spring Fling show that is scheduled for April. I clipped his neck to start sweating it, and low and behold it is the same blue grey color as his dam that is a grullo. Seems that they don't get their true grullo color till almost two years of age. Surprise, surprise. Any how I gave this colt to my Grand son, as I think he is a winner. Vet just checked him and no way is he ready to be gelded. what a shame. Guess my daughter will have to show him until we can get him gelded. Watch for us in the show ring, and hopefully at Nationals.


I agree with Rabbitsfizz...I too think he looks bay dun. It is not true that a true grullao does not get their true/full color until they are two, as I have had duns (red, bay and grulla) all born here and they are all easy to distinguish from each other pretty much right from birth on.

As for gelding him, many people (some vets included) seem to think the colts testicles need to be "hanging" in the scrotum like a stallion, in order to geld...this is not so, and as long as they can be palpated, they can easily be gelded. I have had foals as young as 5 1/2 weeks done even.


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## rubyviewminis (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree with Mona and Rabbit, bay dun, and I had two colts gelded whose parts "disappeared", but even I could palpate them. Normal gelding procedure.

SampleMM if you find a definitive genetic test for dun, and also have it done, I would really love to know who and where. It is hard waiting two years to know for sure if they are a dunskin/Buckskin dun. It would be too hard to go through getting DNA from the sire's current owner and all of the other requirements to *indicate* dun.

I have had three grullo horses, and I can post pictures if anyone wants to see, that they do keep their tannish baby coat for their first two years. The last one we had (mustang) had all of the trademark grullo markings. Even the BLM had him listed as buckskin. At two years he shed a beautiful grullo with a slight olive tint



.

I just want to say those are some gorgeous horses all of you posted pictures of !


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 19, 2011)

The vet palpated him on Wed. she can feel one ring but no boys yet.


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## Skylight_minis (Feb 19, 2011)

Bonny said:


> Sorry to hijack the thread here...
> 
> But this is a pic of Katies dorsal stripe, and the other pictures of her are posted above.



I had a buckskin that had a definate chocolate stripe but there was no way he was dun. Neighter parent were dun and he didnt have any other signs of being dun. The silver gene does make it more difficult to tell since it turns black to brown. I would look for leg baring. It is possible to have a dorsal and not be a dun.


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## mizbeth (Feb 19, 2011)

I agree, this boy is a bay dun! Most horses this time of year do not show their true colors, and appear much darker. My MIME is a bay but when clipped this time of year, he appears black or the color we expect a black to be - this time or year.

Bay duns' appear a buckskin color in their summer color - and I agree, they are dilutes very similar if not the same as a buckskin parent.

When I was growing up with big horses, a buckskin had a DORSAL stripe and was expected to, of course this was a few years ago


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## Tami (Feb 20, 2011)

I would have bet money one of my stallions carried dun. He has a very dark, defined dorsal strip. He has a bar on his shoulders and produced a colt with the same bars and with leg bars......(not a flattering photo of him)











I had him tested and he does not carry dun.


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## chandab (Feb 20, 2011)

Tami said:


> I would have bet money one of my stallions carried dun. He has a very dark, defined dorsal strip. He has a bar on his shoulders and produced a colt with the same bars and with leg bars......(not a flattering photo of him)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, I'd sure be willing to swear he was dun. He has awfully dark dorsal, shoulder bars, looks to have the dark mask, but can't see his legs to see if he has leg bars (probably does). Makes me wonder about the dun test.


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 21, 2011)

Since there is some confusion on my yearling being a bay or a grullo, I will try to get a picture this afternoon of his neck that is clipped to show the color his body is becoming. I would be interested to know you alls opinion. Terry


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## Miniequine (Feb 21, 2011)

*Tami! Really??? I would call him a DUN! * * Interesting*!

 



Tami said:


> I would have bet money one of my stallions carried dun. He has a very dark, defin ed dorsal strip. He has a bar on his shoulders and produced a colt with the same bars and with leg bars......(not a flattering photo of him)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Mona (Feb 21, 2011)

I would certainly have him restested with a new hair sample! He sure does look bay dun!!! That dorsal sure does not look like any countershading!!



And then with the other dun factors too, it just does not seem possible that he is not dun!!


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 21, 2011)

OK here is the photo that I promised earlier today, Jack in his winter woolies, but I clipped some of his neck for sweating. What do you think? Grullo or bay dun? The horse in the above photos look like a bay dun to me, but not Jack.


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## MindyLee (Feb 21, 2011)

I say bay dun still.

I have a bay stud that looks like that with a fresh clip. After it starts to grow back the red comes back as well.


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## SampleMM (Feb 21, 2011)

Mona said:


> I would certainly have him restested with a new hair sample! He sure does look bay dun!!! That dorsal sure does not look like any countershading!!
> 
> 
> 
> And then with the other dun factors too, it just does not seem possible that he is not dun!!



I agree! Tami's horse sure looks like a dun to me and who knows, perhaps there was a mix-up at the lab.


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## Mona (Feb 21, 2011)

Riverrose. I would BET MONEY that your boy is a bay dun and not a grullo. You cannot go by freshly clipped coat color. He is most definately a bay dun. All you have to do to find out 100% is to have him color tested for agouti.



If he carries, he's a bay dun, if not, he's a grullo, but my money is on bay dun.


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 21, 2011)

Thanks Mona, I got the web site address for color testing, maybe I'll send off a sample.


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## chandab (Feb 21, 2011)

Riverrose28 said:


> OK here is the photo that I promised earlier today, Jack in his winter woolies, but I clipped some of his neck for sweating. What do you think? Grullo or bay dun? The horse in the above photos look like a bay dun to me, but not Jack.


Looks like a typical bay dun, very nice, can't wait to see his summer coat. [Clipped coat doesn't show true color. My silver bay mare looks pale silver when clipped, but gets her golden color back when it grows out a little.]


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## valshingle (Feb 21, 2011)

I may be wrong, but I thought that the dun test wasn't 100% correct. Meaning that if your horse tests positive then he is a dun, but if he tests negative he may still be a dun because they don't have a test for every gene that carries dun. Same with roan. I think that is what the techs at Animal Genetics told me.

Forgive me if I have this wrong.

Also, can a non-visible dun horse carry the dun gene? I have a bay roan frosted/snowflake app mare that the vets feel just had a dun foal. The foal looks bay with countershading to me, but I do see some 'roany' hairs and his base coat seems very mousy. One vet is predicting grulla roan and the other is betting on bay roan app.


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## Tami (Feb 21, 2011)

I was quite surprised too when his test came back "markers inconsistent for being dun". But his sire and dam are not registered as dun either. But I raised dun quarter horses for years and this coloring was too "sharp" not to be dun, which is why I had him tested. His sire is Alvadar Double Destiny, who does not appear to carry dun and his dam is Sids Bunny, a black.


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## SampleMM (May 21, 2011)

Okay all you color experts..........here is my filly.........freshly clipped. What color do you think she is now? Note the dorsal stripe and leg stripes. It's weird, her legs are black in the front and then are light on the backs of legs.


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## Jill (May 21, 2011)

She's beautiful!!! Very visibly sporting dun factor, but of course, she can be both genetically buckskin and carry dun. Bay + Cream + Dun



Three of our six buckskin mares also exhibit dun factor





To my eyes, your filly's tone looks more bay than buckskin, but I've seen genetic buckskins that do look more bay to the eye than buckskin... Have you color checked her?


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## SampleMM (May 21, 2011)

Jill said:


> She's beautiful!!! Very visibly sporting dun factor, but of course, she can be both genetically buckskin and carry dun. Bay + Cream + Dun
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Jill.......

No, I haven't had her tested yet but I plan to. I hadn't thought about her being bay. Her winter hair was a very pale cream and she was born with almost white hair so we shall see.


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## Mona (May 21, 2011)

She looks bay dun to me, with the possibility due to her breeding, that she may also carry buckskin, but would need to be tested to confirm. If positive for cream then I'd say dunskin.


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## Helicopter (May 21, 2011)

Knottymare said:


> I have a GREAT idea. Send her to me and I'll keep an eye on it for you
> 
> 
> 
> ...







My thoughts exactly.


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