# Kicking Straps - Pros and Cons Please



## georgiegirl (Jan 17, 2010)

I would appreciate it if there could be some input on the pros and cons of kicking straps.

Do they really do the job?

What about the straps that connect to the crupper. Do they make the tail area sore if they are properly installed?.

I notice that very few of drivers use them. I dont feel the need for one right now, but I am getting some other feedback that indicates that they are not a bad idea.

In all the research that I have done, there is very little information in books and DVD's on the subject.

I know there must be some information in the forum on this subject, I just cant find it.

Thanks in advance.


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## disneyhorse (Jan 18, 2010)

Well, judging by my Shetland stallion's athletic ability to buck quite well in the long lines, he will DEFINITELY be getting a kicking strap when he gets hooked.

Iowa Valley Carriage has them very reasonably priced, and lots of options on them, so that's where I'll be ordering mine. However, in the meantime, I have always used a leadrope or rope.

I usually run it through where the hip drops on the breeching run through. Not entirely sure if that's the spot, but there are slots up there that make it easy.

I don't think I'd run one as far back as the crupper, that seems uncomfortable and not really where it needs to be.

Andrea


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## Farina (Jan 18, 2010)

At first I think that a properly trained driving hrse shouldn't need kicking straps.

A definitive pro for kicking straps is, that you can adjust them in different positions so you can give your horse a more balanced look. There is only one position for breeching, and sometimes horses look very long in their back with breeching. I would never use breeching and kicking strap, that loooks like too many leather with too few horse.

In Germany there are 'short breeching' that's a leather that comes in the ring of the breechin strap and go right to the shafts if you would need both. In 'Eignungspruefungen' you have to drive with kicking strap and then I usually drive without breeching (and *with* break).


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## targetsmom (Jan 18, 2010)

You might want to read this thread on page 2:

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=113159

I have heard very experienced drivers say they always use a kicking strap and using one should not indicate that the horse is necessarily a bucker. Just that the driver is being safety conscious. I admit I haven't added one to my harness yet, but I believe they are positioned quite near the crupper to be effective.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 18, 2010)

The kicking strap is looped around one shaft and then run over the horses butt behind the breeching and in front of the crouper and then looped around the other shaft. I run it through the buckles on the crouper to keep it in place. It won't completely stop a horse that is bound and determined to buck and kick but it will keep them from kicking high enough to get a leg over the shaft which could be disastrous and if you are using one the first time they attempt to buck or kick it may deter them from trying it again.


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## candycar (Jan 18, 2010)

Thanks for asking the question. I have decided after reading the safety thread to add a kicking strap also. I have heard different ways of putting them on. Would some of you please add a pic or two to show us how you do it? Especially if you use just a plain strap or rope setup. I'm having a hard time envisioning where on the backstrap or crupper it would cross, and how it stays put. Thanks!


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## HorseMom (Jan 18, 2010)

I love mine. Jay was great driving but whenever we went down a hill he didn't like the pressure from the cart and would buck. I put the strap on him and he couldn't buck. He learned how to use his body correctly to go down the hill without being pushed along by the cart. He doesn't need the strap anymore for bucking but I like to keep it on for safety. You never know when the horse might spook. I got mine from Iowa Valley for I think $30 and that included shipping.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 18, 2010)

georgiegirl said:


> I would appreciate it if there could be some input on the pros and cons of kicking straps.


Pros: They help teach the horse that bucking and kicking are not acceptable (or possible) in the cart. They act as insurance- hopefully the horse will never need it, but if he starts wildly kicking the strap can save both of you from serious injury by keeping the horse's legs down below the shafts. The strap is easy to use and quick to put on. Properly adjusted, it does not interfer with the horse's movement or comfort in any way unlike a tight check, which some people will tell you is an anti-bucking device.

Cons: It's one more thing to buckle every time you put-to. It _is_ one more piece of leather on the horse and can make the picture pretty crowded if it isn't placed properly. Some ADS judges still feel a kicking strap is a sign you aren't confident of your horse or isn't proper turnout and may mark you down, just as they did for helmets when people first started wearing those. Kicking straps cannot be used for multiple hitches as they depend on having two shafts so the horse must lift the weight of the cart with his body if he tries to buck. That means they don't help for pulling sleds, working in pairs, for a tandem leader, etc.

Personally, I just take the kicking strap off right before our class at the horse's first couple of shows and later take it off any time we switch to our fancy show harness. The horse only wears it for routine workouts and trail drives where looks do not matter but safety most certainly does. (As you'll see on that safety thread, I had cause to regret leaving the strap at home "just one time" when I took a green horse out at the Kentucky Horse Park.)



georgiegirl said:


> Do they really do the job?


Yes. Using one broke my chronic high-spirits bucker of the habit and successfully prevented him from being able to kick out each time he tried in a variety of carts. He was forced to redirect his behavior into moving forward and learned to respect my requests to quit and drive on. Now he will stop when I ask whether or not the strap is on.



georgiegirl said:


> What about the straps that connect to the crupper. Do they make the tail area sore if they are properly installed?


I don't personally like the crupper models. My Iowa Valley kicking strap fits over the rump on most of my harnesses and works fine there but when I tried to apply it to my Camptown harness it didn't fit over the backstrap and I had to put it in front of the crupper. It bent the winter hairs in the area, got caught in the buckles, irritated my horse and did not work as well. When he tried to buck in irritation at the way it was pulling on his tail it didn't hold him down, it just made him tuck his butt and go into a crowhopping temper tantrum instead of kicking up and out like he wanted to. Maybe a model designed to work in that area would function better but I still prefer the models that go over the top of the hip. The ones Camptown sells are meant to work with their harnesses and fit fine over the backstrap.



georgiegirl said:


> I notice that very few of drivers use them. I dont feel the need for one right now, but I am getting some other feedback that indicates that they are not a bad idea.


Very few mini drivers use them, mostly because none of us were taught about them!




They've been common in training big horses for many years and I wish I'd known about them when I started my gelding. Bucking would never have become a habit for him if I had.







Farina said:


> At first I think that a properly trained driving hrse shouldn't need kicking straps.
> A definitive pro for kicking straps is, that you can adjust them in different positions so you can give your horse a more balanced look. There is only one position for breeching, and sometimes horses look very long in their back with breeching. I would never use breeching and kicking strap, that loooks like too many leather with too few horse.


Okay, I'm open to the idea that this is a cultural difference but in my opinion the kicking strap is absolutely the one piece of harness where looks aren't a consideration.



It is a piece of SAFETY equipment, and if it's on there it's on to do its job, not make the horse's back look shorter. It goes where-ever it needs to in order to prevent bucking. Breeching actually is adjustable and both can and should be moved to sit at the most correct and visually pleasing spot on the horse's back. If it is too far back, yes, it can make the back look long.

I consider a kicking strap to be part of the proper training process. I will put one on my green horses for them to wear even (in fact especially if) they haven't offered to buck as I want them to hit that strap at least once and realize that bucking in the cart is not acceptable. The colt I will be starting next year is going to be wearing one full-time for awhile because just like Andrea's colt, he's more than a bit of a lightfoot behind! His first reaction to anything is to kick out or at least hump his butt and bounce. Should he do that in the cart and hit the basket he could panic himself and cause a terrible accident. I'm going to be desensitizing him very strongly in the next year and working to redirect his behavior into freezing in place or at least turning to face what scares him instead of turning his butt to it and he'll get trained in an open bridle at first so he knows there's something behind him and isn't startled when his foot hits something. I think between those precautions and the kicking strap he'll be an awesome driving horse in a year or two and pretty trustworthy. He does not kick aggressively, only in defensiveness, so if I can keep him from feeling threatened as he learns his job we should be fine.

I can post some pictures of the strap I use when I get home from work.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Jan 18, 2010)

There is a good article on the axwoodfarm website, including photos of kicking straps in action.

I agree with most everything that has been said, and will add that a kicking strap is proper and correct turnout for some gigs with big horses. In regards to ADS judges marking down, I have heard that as well, but I have also seen the opposite. There has been issues with some young or inexperienced horses bucking in the arena, and the judges have requested that the driver get a kicking strap before they come back for another class. I can see judges especially marking down if the strap doesn't fit, is not adjusted correctly, or doesn't match the rest of the harness. It has to look like it "belongs", not an afterthought.

I also totally agree that I would not add it or take it off for just the purpose of looks. Every piece of harness is there for a practical reason. The breeching is the best form of brakes, especially if your vehicle doesn't have mechanical brakes. (I wouldn't take mine off even for a breed show, as I feel it is cruel for the horse not to have it.) The kicking strap can be good insurance if your horse needs it. I once saw a Friesan kick up and his hind hooves came within an inch of his driver's nose! That horse has a kicking strap ALL THE TIME now, and won Concours d' Elegance (something French for Most Elegant, Correct Turnout) at an ADS show.

I think that another reason lots of mini owners don't use one is because, especially on our smaller horses, the breeching itself holds the butt down. The way the breeching straps are connected to the carts, they can't get their hinds up regardless. It probably depends on where the footman loops are located, and the harness and cart design, though.

Myrna


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## georgiegirl (Jan 18, 2010)

HorseMom said:


> I love mine. Jay was great driving but whenever we went down a hill he didn't like the pressure from the cart and would buck. I put the strap on him and he couldn't buck. He learned how to use his body correctly to go down the hill without being pushed along by the cart. He doesn't need the strap anymore for bucking but I like to keep it on for safety. You never know when the horse might spook. I got mine from Iowa Valley for I think $30 and that included shipping.



I looked up the IowaValley kicking straps. I like the looks of those better than most I have seen. I dont think that the straps, that tie into the crupper, are exactly what I want.

The Iowa Valley say that they attach to the back strap. Could you please explain to me how that is done? Does the back strap run through a slot on the top of the kick strap.

Thank you for answering.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 18, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> I wouldn't take mine off even for a breed show, as I feel it is cruel for the horse not to have it.


Be careful of that word, Myrna. To me "cruelty" is the willful application of pain or suffering and I do not believe that driving without breeching in a show ring situation falls into that category. Doing so out on a mountain trail in a heavy cart and fine unpadded show harness? Maybe! Some of the checks I see? Yes. But correctly (i.e. with comfort taken into consideration) harnessed to a light jog cart that sits low behind the horse, no, I don't believe it's cruel to remove the breeching. Not advisable, yes, but not "cruel." Asking them to back in deep footing and such without it is a different question but you know how opinionated Kody is and he tells me he quite enjoys taking the breeching off sometimes.



RhineStone said:


> I think that another reason lots of mini owners don't use one is because, especially on our smaller horses, the breeching itself holds the butt down. The way the breeching straps are connected to the carts, they can't get their hinds up regardless. It probably depends on where the footman loops are located, and the harness and cart design, though.


It would definitely depend. Kody has no trouble at all getting his heels in the air! Looking at the photos of him bucking when he was younger you can see the breeching has been pulled quite tight but it in no way held him down. The horse that kicked me over the shaft at the National Drive was also wearing correctly-fitted breeching. In both cases the cart had large metal footman's loops and the holdback strap fit horizontally. A wooden cart with narrow slot and thick shafts has to be wrapped a different way which applies more downward pressure and might perhaps act to pull downwards on the hip strap a bit, but I hate that configuration as it affects the horse's movement if it's that tight.



And I still wouldn't count on it to prevent bucking!



georgiegirl said:


> The Iowa Valley say that they attach to the back strap. Could you please explain to me how that is done? Does the back strap run through a slot on the top of the kick strap.


Yes, exactly. The Iowa Valley one that I have has a slot sewn into the top and I simply pull the excess backstrap out of the keepers, lay the kick strap across between those two keepers, tuck the end of the strap through the slot and then back through the keepers. It's easy to remove quickly in that configuration and also blends nicely with the breeching hip strap which runs right underneath it. The Camptown version has a padded underside so I believe it is meant to fit completely under and over the backstrap instead of just the strap end but don't hold me to that. I've seen it and driven a horse with it on but didn't pay a lot of attention at the time to the way it was attached.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Jan 18, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> RhineStone said:
> 
> 
> > I wouldn't take mine off even for a breed show, as I feel it is cruel for the horse not to have it.
> ...


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## REO (Jan 19, 2010)

I would love to see photos!


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## drivin*me*buggy (Jan 19, 2010)

I have the Iowa Valley kicking strap...I have used a bit of black shoelace to secure mine to the breeching on my backstrap a few inches in front of the crupper.


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## candycar (Jan 19, 2010)

Another ? How much slack should you leave in the kicking strap to allow for normal up & down butt movement? I looked at the axwoodfarm site (thanks Rhinestone) and they said 4 inches for a big horse. Is it the same for a mini?


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## georgiegirl (Jan 19, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> There is a good article on the axwoodfarm website, including photos of kicking straps in action.
> I agree with most everything that has been said, and will add that a kicking strap is proper and correct turnout for some gigs with big horses. In regards to ADS judges marking down, I have heard that as well, but I have also seen the opposite. There has been issues with some young or inexperienced horses bucking in the arena, and the judges have requested that the driver get a kicking strap before they come back for another class. I can see judges especially marking down if the strap doesn't fit, is not adjusted correctly, or doesn't match the rest of the harness. It has to look like it "belongs", not an afterthought.
> 
> I also totally agree that I would not add it or take it off for just the purpose of looks. Every piece of harness is there for a practical reason. The breeching is the best form of brakes, especially if your vehicle doesn't have mechanical brakes. (I wouldn't take mine off even for a breed show, as I feel it is cruel for the horse not to have it.) The kicking strap can be good insurance if your horse needs it. I once saw a Friesan kick up and his hind hooves came within an inch of his driver's nose! That horse has a kicking strap ALL THE TIME now, and won Concours d' Elegance (something French for Most Elegant, Correct Turnout) at an ADS show.
> ...


Yes, there is information at Axwoodfarm. A friend of mine is in communication with the lady from that farm. My problem with her information is that it is primarily directed to big horses and warm bloods. She has directions for a kicking strap, however, it is big enough and strong enough to hold an elephant. I dont think that a mini needs 2" nylon webbing, which is doubled. It is hard to decipher how to shrink the measurements to fit a mini. Not only that , if done according to her directions, there would be straps going everywhere, covering the rump of the mini. I think there is probably a better alternative JMHO

She is determined that they cant buck with a kicking strap on, even with an empty cart. My easy entry cart is very light weight, and I am not a large person, so I feel that if so inclined that the bucking strap would not stop them. I certainly will not stop them from running away. Do the kicking straps lend themselves to a false sense of well being and security, thus becoming a crutch?

I meet the kicking strap with mixed emotions. I dont understand why, if they are a very good deterrant, why there is not more information about the use of them in driving "how to" books and DVDs. Finding information is very hard. Any photos that you see, just about anywhere, do not show a kicking strap used on the driving horses, certainly not in show situations.

Most of this is my own opinion developed from info that I have been able to read and garner from people. I will probably obtain one from Iowa Valley but will only use it in situations that I deem it necessary.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 19, 2010)

I will try to take a photo for you tomorrow of a kicking strap in use. Mine is just a long leather strap that I had buckles put on both ends and I run it through the buckles of the crouper on my working harness and buckle it around the shafts on either side. I don't use one for show driving. My horses are trained not to buck and will not do so unless in an extreme circumstance in which case I have found that the kicking strap doesn't do the best job of stopping them anyway. The only times my trained horses have kicked and bucked was once when stung by a bee, once when thwacked in the belly by a small sapling that probably stung like a bee and the other time I am not really sure what set him off but when a horse is really bent on bucking and kicking they still will - my job is to do my best to keep them straight so they don't get a leg over the shaft, most horses do kick straight back. I find kicking straps are most effective during training should a horse try kicking or bucking. If they run into the kicking strap and are given a tap with the whip and a sharp vocal reprimand at the same time they don't often try it again.


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## RhineStone (Jan 20, 2010)

georgiegirl said:


> Yes, there is information at Axwoodfarm. A friend of mine is in communication with the lady from that farm. My problem with her information is that it is primarily directed to big horses and warm bloods. She has directions for a kicking strap, however, it is big enough and strong enough to hold an elephant. I dont think that a mini needs 2" nylon webbing, which is doubled. It is hard to decipher how to shrink the measurements to fit a mini. Not only that , if done according to her directions, there would be straps going everywhere, covering the rump of the mini. I think there is probably a better alternative JMHO
> She is determined that they cant buck with a kicking strap on, even with an empty cart. My easy entry cart is very light weight, and I am not a large person, so I feel that if so inclined that the bucking strap would not stop them. I certainly will not stop them from running away. Do the kicking straps lend themselves to a false sense of well being and security, thus becoming a crutch?
> 
> I meet the kicking strap with mixed emotions. I dont understand why, if they are a very good deterrant, why there is not more information about the use of them in driving "how to" books and DVDs. Finding information is very hard. Any photos that you see, just about anywhere, do not show a kicking strap used on the driving horses, certainly not in show situations.
> ...


I guess I don't understand what you expect the kicking strap to do?





As Lori said, it's just one long leather strap with buckles on both ends. One extra strap is not going to be "going everywhere, covering the rump."

Also, the purpose of it is not to keep the horse from kicking or bucking, nothing can do that except their own brain, through good training. But what it does do is keep your nose intact.



If the horse happens to get his rump high enough that he gets his foot over the dash (if there is one), you have a foot in your lap or worse! It also helps to keep his rump from getting high enough to get a leg over a shaft.

Yes, the Axwood Farm site was info for big horses, but the application is the same. The size of the strap might be a little smaller.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 20, 2010)

georgiegirl said:


> She is determined that they cant buck with a kicking strap on, even with an empty cart. My easy entry cart is very light weight, and I am not a large person, so I feel that if so inclined that the bucking strap would not stop them. I certainly will not stop them from running away. Do the kicking straps lend themselves to a false sense of well being and security, thus becoming a crutch?


I don't know about an empty cart but it has kept my gelding down when hauling a single 100lb person in a 37lb Hyperbike if that's any comfort.



I honestly feel you're worrying too much about this; nobody is heralding the kicking strap as a cure for all driving ills and a guarantee against bolting, bucking, rearing, kicking and general naughtiness. It is how you handle the horse when and if they start bucking that is going to stop them...the kicking strap, as Myrna and MiLo said, is simply going to help keep your teeth and kneecaps intact while you get control again.



In fact your horse may very well take off running when he finds he can't get his butt up but frankly I find that far more manageable and less dangerous then a frantic bronco between the shafts. Been there, done that, would take the bolter every time! Especially since with a redirected behavior like that the horse isn't blindly fear bolting, he's just trying running away when bucking didn't work. Usually they run themselves out pretty quickly and can be brought to a halt with no damage.

I use the kick-strap fairly regularly and am always grateful for the insurance but I don't feel nervous or naked driving without it. I'm simply aware (from experience) of the additional risk I'm putting myself at and drive accordingly. It's like any other activity we undertake- driving a car on ice is dangerous, but approached carefully there's a reasonable chance you'll get to work safely. I'm not going to let the risk stop me but I AM going to be sensible and try and keep myself and my car safe. The kick strap is optional insurance in case the worst happens just as a seatbelt is.



georgiegirl said:


> I meet the kicking strap with mixed emotions. I dont understand why, if they are a very good deterrant, why there is not more information about the use of them in driving "how to" books and DVDs. Finding information is very hard. Any photos that you see, just about anywhere, do not show a kicking strap used on the driving horses, certainly not in show situations.


Well, I don't have a 100% answer for your question but several of the books and videos I have discuss it. You're absolutely right though that you can read a dozen books and not find one mention of a kick strap. I don't know if it's because they take it for granted that everyone knows about them, if they think they don't work, if the authors simply aren't familiar with them or what. I know books and videos geared toward minis won't mention them at all but books by British authors often do and I believe Clay Maier's excellent driving video does. So does Heike Bean's "Carriage Driving: A Logical Approach Through Dressage Training."

As for why there are no pictures, I know I've looked at closely at a few carriage driving photos and realized the horse was in fact wearing a kick strap but it was so well fitted and blended with the harness that it was almost unnoticeable. Most people do take them off for show and show photos are understandably what the majority of us publish or post as we all like to share our horses spit-shined and looking gorgeous.



Another thing is I believe kick straps are primarily used in the very early training of most full-sized driving horses, a stage that people often don't post photos of as the horse is busy finding his balance and rarely shows himself to good advantage. Who wants to put their future Fabulous Stallion out on the internet in his fuzzies and gaping at the bit as he hauls along on his forehand?



And as so many of you have pointed out, it is more leather crowding the picture so most people would chose a photo not wearing it instead of one with a kick strap if they're going to show off their horse.

Just some thoughts!

Leia


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## georgiegirl (Jan 20, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> georgiegirl said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, there is information at Axwoodfarm. A friend of mine is in communication with the lady from that farm. My problem with her information is that it is primarily directed to big horses and warm bloods. She has directions for a kicking strap, however, it is big enough and strong enough to hold an elephant. I dont think that a mini needs 2" nylon webbing, which is doubled. It is hard to decipher how to shrink the measurements to fit a mini. Not only that , if done according to her directions, there would be straps going everywhere, covering the rump of the mini. I think there is probably a better alternative JMHO
> ...


I am not expecting anything out of the kicking strap. I initially asked for pros and cons.

I think it probably gives one a false sense of security. It is supposed to be an end all for bucking and kicking. Maybe it does and maybe it does not.

As far as the kicking strap at Axwood Farm, it is made with 2 inch doubled nylon webbing. It has bracing going many directions. I do not think it necessary for a mini. She is an interesting person as my friend has many emails from her addressing the bucking/kicking issue. She apparently does not know much about minis, just very large horses.

I have been driving for several years sans kicking strap. I may or may not use one unless I deem it necessary for a horse that is not broke. The idea of the use of a kick strap had not even been presented to me until recently when my friend had an accident.

After all of this discussion, I have learned where to go to buy a quality kicking strap and I learned that there are many different opinions on which one is best and whether you need one or not.

Thanks to all who were helpful.


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## RhineStone (Jan 20, 2010)

georgiegirl said:


> I think it probably gives one a false sense of security. It is supposed to be an end all for bucking and kicking.


Nope, not an "end all be all". It won't "stop" your horse from bucking or kicking.




It really isn't much of a "training" device (other than when the horse can't accomplish what he wants to do, he might give up), it's definitely more of a safety device for both human and horse.





I don't use a kicking strap very often, b/c I try to learn the horse's "stress reactor" prior to putting it to. However, the mini mare I am working with right now bucks when she #1-doesn't get her way, #2-is stressed in some other way. Therefore, I will use a kicking strap with her when we put to, to save my nose.

Here is a photo of a friend of ours using a kicking strap in an ADS show. (This is the best photo I could find.) He won Concours d' Elegance with this turnout at this show. There are three straps on the horse's butt. The two that are more vertical are the hip straps that hold up the breeching. The more diagonal strap is the kicking strap. You can see how nicely this strap "blends in" with the rest of the harness. It doesn't draw attention to itself screaming, I AM A KICKING STRAP!



This is also the same gentleman that almost lost his nose by that same horse.










I think another reason that you don't see kicking straps on a regular basis on show ring horses is just what Lori said, they are trained out of it. Most horses will figure out that kicking/bucking is not an acceptable reaction. However, this particular Friesan has gone along fine and then has "let loose". He is a great driving horse, and is getting much better with age (I haven't seen him buck in years), but the owner really wants to play it safe. I think the majority of kicking straps are used on green horses that you don't see in the ring, yet, hence why there are not too many photos of kicking straps. My little pinto gelding has been known to go along fine and then let loose, so I decided that he really wasn't worth as much of my time as my black horse that I don't have to worry about (and the black moves better



). Therefore, the pinto doesn't get shown, kicking strap or not. I don't need him deciding to let loose in front of a judge and lose my shot at a ribbon.


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## georgiegirl (Jan 20, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> georgiegirl said:
> 
> 
> > I think it probably gives one a false sense of security. It is supposed to be an end all for bucking and kicking.
> ...


Thank you, Rhinestone, for your last post. That just about sums up what my feelings are on the whole subject. Appreciate your answers.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 22, 2010)

Obviously the OP has received plenty of input and learned what she wanted to, but several people did ask for pictures so here are mine.

This is one of our earliest Training Level CDE's back in 2006. Kody was just beginning to learn to use his haunches and still had a strong tendency to buck or even capriole



when excited so you bet I used a kick strap. Here's a view from the cart.






You can see the kick strap in this photo following the line of the rear breeching hipstrap. It blended in very well!






At the Happ's CDE a few weeks later on marathon:






Shown at a schooling weekend in 2008 with my Camptown Harness, where the slot on the kick strap was not big enough to permit it to fit around the backstrap up by the breeching. I didn't like it in this crupper arrangement at all but it was Kody's first time out in months following a surgery and I knew he was going to be bouncy from excitement. He was!















In this position all it did was pull the backstrap down and let his butt round up ahead of it. It might have been okay if I'd been able to secure the strap forward like Rhinestone's Friesian photo shows but I couldn't with this cart and as a result it pulled the crupper from side to side as he bucked and really irritated him. Thankfully he knew better at this point and a firm verbal command and tap with the whip got him moving again. I took the strap off after a few minutes as it was doing more harm than good applied in the wrong position. (He's not bucking in this photo, just cantering, but you can see the kickstrap clearly.)






A Camptown kick strap works fine with a Camptown Harness. This is me driving JJay's "Leggs" at the National Drive 2009.






Leia


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## RhineStone (Jan 22, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


>


Wow! Kody's moving really nice in this photo! (Not that he isn't in other photos, but I haven't seen him in person to know any different.) Look where those withers are in relation to the rump! And he has a nice arch of his neck coming out of his withers, not a hollow "soup bowl". Nice soft collection, too, not forced and stiff. The hind legs are tracking up nicely underneath himself. This, my friends, is what good dressage training will do to your horse! My guess is that Kody might have "one more gear" that would really push that hind up underneath (or it could have been when the photo was snapped) (or is that what the surgury will do?



) (Should we have a "let's analyze this horse's frame" thread?)

I have heard of people adding another footman's loop for the kicking strap. That might be a way to pull it forward.

Thanks for posting these photos. They really should help people get an idea of how a kick strap should be.





Myrna


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## candycar (Jan 22, 2010)

Thanks Leia! that helps bunches love the pics of Cody!


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## georgiegirl (Jan 22, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Obviously the OP has received plenty of input and learned what she wanted to, but several people did ask for pictures so here are mine.
> This is one of our earliest Training Level CDE's back in 2006. Kody was just beginning to learn to use his haunches and still had a strong tendency to buck or even capriole
> 
> 
> ...


Thank you for posting the very informative pictures. My next question is where did you find the very nice harness saddle pad? I havent run across those yet. The fleece pads keep moving around.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 22, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> hobbyhorse23 said:
> 
> 
> >
> ...






I have to admit that despite the filthy raincoat, Hyperbike, poor lighting, etc., that is my favorite trot shot of Kody ever for exactly the reasons you list. Unfortunately that is in fact his top gear (he was flying along the top of a hazard in that photo, excited and powered up and really on the bit) but you can see the way he's naturally built in that 2006 photo and for a horse with his low neck set and camped out hind legs that's about as good as it's going to get. He's not a naturally powerful mover (he fits in the Western Country or Classic Pleasure with his long low movement) but he does have good reach and once his stifles were no longer locking he was able to build a lot more muscle in the rear and start getting a frame like this. He won four out of five Preliminary CDE's I put him in that year and the fifth one we lost because of driver error.



I so miss driving my little man!

GeorgieGirl, which pad are you interested in? The first one shown is a Smucker's I think but it was almost pony sized and way too big. I replaced it with a waffle pad from Mini Express which I like pretty well and still use with that harness. The one under my Camptown saddle is a Pillow Pad (also from Camptown) and those are pretty nice if your saddle is already well-shaped and doesn't need much padding.

Candycar, glad you like him!



That's the same kickstrap I used on your Jelly Bean when I visited.

Leia


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## REO (Jan 22, 2010)

Thank you for the photos!


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## susanne (Jan 22, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Should we have a "let's analyze this horse's frame" thread?
> Myrna


I think this is a great idea, Myrna. Your comments on Kody's movement are very educational. While I had seen much of what you noted, my experience in dressage is so limited that any illustration of key concepts is very helpful.

I'd post a photo to start this off, but so far we only have "before" photos, lol.


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## Carriage (Jan 23, 2010)

Thank you Leia,

Discussions of and being able to view movements are one of my very favorite topics. I would look forward to seeing this photo study done on Mingus Susanne. From the first time I saw him in harness I KNEW he was going to be great. All it took was one snapshot that I treasure in my mind.

Also it is so nice to see a harness system so well tuned to both the horse and the rig.

The lines are impeccable.

Thanks Leia

Bb


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## susanne (Jan 23, 2010)

Thank you, Bob! We're so lucky to have Mingus, and he is, indeed, a natural -- I can't take much credit, as I still need to learn in order to help him live up to his potential. I'm chomping at the bit to get out and drive once I get the go-ahead from my doctors.


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## ponyandcarriage (Jan 23, 2010)

georgiegirl said:


> I would appreciate it if there could be some input on the pros and cons of kicking straps.
> Do they really do the job?
> 
> What about the straps that connect to the crupper. Do they make the tail area sore if they are properly installed?.
> ...


[SIZE=12pt]Here are two videos that may be of some help, the first video shows the fitting of a crupper style kicking strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.[/SIZE]



Hope this helps a little


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## michele80906 (Jan 24, 2010)

Thank[/COLOR] you for the pictures. They were perfect, just what I was looking for. I had an accident earlier this fall, not going into the whole story but suffice to say after the bucking and kicking incident I had it not only forced me to do what I needed to do as far as more ground work and ground driving and more communication with my horse, but I after I hook my mini back to the cart I won't be driving without a kick strap ever. I don't look to the strap as a "cure all" for everything but as with riding big horses as I did for over 30 years, there are safety precautions I took with riding just as I will with driving. You can never do enough preliminary work on your horse to advance them to the next level, but as with all horses, I don't care how well they are broke, crap happens and minis are, after horses. And I found out just how powerful and quick these little guys can be. I am looking forward to when I hitch my little guy back to the cart.

 


the OP has received plenty of input and learned what she wanted to, but several people did ask for pictures so here are mine.

 

 

 


You can see the kick strap in this photo following the line of the rear breeching hipstrap. It blended in very well!


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## michele80906 (Jan 24, 2010)

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]Those were very helpful, especially with the action video. The strap works just as I envioned it would. Michele

strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.



Hope this helps a little


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 24, 2010)

ponyandcarriage said:


> [SIZE=12pt]Here are two videos that may be of some help, the first video shows the fitting of a crupper style kicking strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.[/SIZE]


Excellent videos, thank you.



I notice on the one of the strap in action the front wheels of the carriage are indeed lifted by the horse's upward efforts but that seems to help keep the shafts at the same place on his sides so he can't kick over them and doesn't appear to do any harm. What happens with a two-wheeler in your experience? Since all the weight is over that axle instead of half or less, does it generally stay down?

Also, it's interesting to note that the crupper kick strap in your informational video fits at the same place on that horse as the hip-strap positioned one does on the other horses shown in this thread. He's got such a lovely high tail set and flat topline that his backstrap is very short indeed. Do you have any pictures or video of that model fitted to a horse with a bit longer/more sloped croup and a lower tail set? Would you use it on a horse like that, or make any adjustments in how it is fastened to do so? It seems like however it attaches, the correct positioning is still up by the top of the horse's hip.

Thanks for your input!

Leia


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## jegray21 (Jan 24, 2010)

Thanks for the video!


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## ponyandcarriage (Jan 24, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> [SIZE=12pt]Here are two videos that may be of some help, the first video shows the fitting of a crupper style kicking strap which does not cause soreness etc providing it is fitted and adjusted correctly, the second video a kicking strap in action.[/SIZE]



Hi Leia

To be upfront with you we have not actually ever witnessed a horse bucking or kicking properly in a two wheeler with a kicking strap fitted but here are my thoughts.

A kicking strap should be just as effective and perhaps even more so as you do not have the pivoting with the solid fixed shafts of a two wheeler that you have with a four wheel carriage.

When the buck takes up the slack and bears into the kicking strap it pulls solid against the shafts and you then have the whole weight of two wheeler acting against the buck.

Unfortunately no pictures or video of one fitted to something like a Friesian with a lower tail set.

If using a crupper style kicking strap on a horse with a lower tail set I would be tempted to position the strap to the shafts towards a more vertical position otherwise it is possible that on bucking the crupper may well be pulled tight under the tail maybe exasperating the situation, but to be honest that’s just my opinion and there must be dozens of valid scenarios and thoughts on this subject.

Unfortunately whenever these events do occasionally happen as you know it tends to all happen very quickly with little chance of catching it on camera to later sit back and look carefully at the movement actions involved.

We ourselves have had one bucking incident that ended in a carriage tip which is another story but even today we are still not entirely 100% percent sure what caused it, horse was fine and put back too and it hasn’t happened since but we do use a kicking strap now for peace of mind and as far as we can tell don’t lose marks in the dressage because of it.

All the Best

Liza


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## My2Minis (Jan 24, 2010)

Thank you for this thread. I have a kick strap but haven't been using it. I will take the time to put it on next time I drive.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 25, 2010)

With the Minis I have had buck or kick on me with the kick strap on only the larger ones have been able to move the vehicle and more so when they buck rather than kick. As you have seen with my cart they usually tend to only be able to kick out the boards on the front of the basket and can't get their heels up high enough to get over the shafts. As far as whether or not the strap exasperates the incident I really don't know if they would have stopped quicker with the strap up higher or not. I run mine through the crouper buckles which are just behind the hangar strap of the breeching on my working harness because they are nice big buckles and the strap interferes less with the breeching in that position. I would think that even if I ran the strap through the back strap it would still tug on the crouper somewhat during a bucking episode. I am not really sure if the strap shortens a bucking spree or if it just helps to prevent injury to myself or the horse.


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