# Top 12 Reasons People Voted Democrat in 2008



## Jill (Jun 12, 2011)

_One of my clients, obviously a fellow Conservative, shared this with me the other day and I thought I'd pass it along _






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*When your friends cannot explain why they voted for Democrats, give them this list. They can then pick their reasons from this "TOP 12"...*

 

1. I voted Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene, but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't.

 

 

2. I voted Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

 

 

3. I voted Democrat because Freedom of Speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it.

 

 

4. I voted Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I know that my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and thieves.

 

 

5. I voted Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday can tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten years if I don't start driving a Prius.

 

 

6. I voted Democrat because I'm not concerned about millions of babies being aborted so long as we keep all death row inmates alive.

 

 

7. I voted Democrat because I think illegal aliens have a right to free health care, education, and Social Security benefits.

 

 

8. I voted Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for redistribution as the Democrats see fit.

 

 

9. I voted Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would never get their agendas past the voters.

 

 

10. I voted Democrat because I think that it's better to pay billions to people who hate us for their oil, but not drill our own because it might upset some endangered beetle or gopher.

 

 

11. I voted Democrat because while we live in the greatest, most wonderful country in the world, I was promised "HOPE AND CHANGE".

 

 

12. I voted Democrat because my head is so firmly planted up my butt; it's unlikely that I'll ever have another point of view.


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## CharlesFamily (Jun 12, 2011)

Hmmmmm - Number 12 absolutely applies to the dogmatic extremists of both parties! I know this was supposed to be a "tongue in cheek" kind of thing, but as a registered Republican, I CAN tell you why I voted Democrat in 2008, and why I did again for governor in 2010 and why it's not looking great for me to vote my party in 2012. Simply put, until the Republican party can actually stand someone up that I can get behind and really believe in, I refuse to vote for them! That's not saying that I am happy with the way things are going now on a National level, and there are a great many things I don't agree with. But I am happier with my Democratic President right now than I am with our Republican Governor here in the great state of Ohio. And, I'm sorry, but if Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney/Sarah Palin are the best my party can come up with, then it is a sad state of affairs. (And I like Sarah Palin as a person - I enjoyed watching her reality show and I think she is great, I just don't want her running our country).

Barbara


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## Jill (Jun 12, 2011)

As a life-long common sense conservative, I cannot imagine choosing to vote for the socialist in 2008



The "hopey-changey" stuff doesn't seem to have materialized into what most who voted that direction must have had in mind



I'm looking forward to 2012 for sure


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## laughingllama75 (Jun 12, 2011)

I wish we had a"LIKE" button!


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## vickie gee (Jun 12, 2011)

I am disappointed that another reason I heard sometime back did not make the list...

"TO SHOW THAT I AM NOT RACIST." That person said "NEXT TIME I WILL NOT VOTE FOR HIM TO PROVE THAT I AM NOT STUPID."

My nephew's wife voted for him and in good nature some of us really ribbed her about it. She and my nephew own a business. It was not long before she was telling us that she "was wrong, did not really have a clue at the time, and would just have to eat crow."


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## bevann (Jun 12, 2011)

I always split my ticket when I vote and try to vote for the best person for the job regardless of party affiliation.I was registered as a Democrat, but am now an independent because I got so tired of political CRAP and phone calls around election time.I think it is high time in Washington and our states to stop the party bickering and work together to get this great country back to what it needs to be for the legal citizens of the US.If Hispanics want to come here and live and work get proper documentation and LEARN ENGLISH.I am so sick of people who have lived here 10 years or more and still can't speak the language.Public service places have to spend money on interpreters to get anything done.In my area the Hispanics have really learned how to work the system-free health care, food stamps, etc.Our hospitals are suffering because they use the services-give false names and addresses-no way to get the money from them-now their babies are US citizens and here we go again.This is a great country, but it is going downhill fast.Too many parasites bleeding us dry.In my area we also have 3 or 4 generations of families who have no one who has ever held a job in their entire life.They get so much from the system that it doesn't pay them to work.


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## Jill (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm happy some of you enjoyed it!!!

Vickie -- I never understood how a business owner could support Obama because of how anti-business he was slated to be and of course materialized as anticipated BUT I think the MSM does such a lousy job of presenting the facts that a lot of voters didn't really know what we were in store for when it comes to Obama.

Plus, voting for someone BECAUSE he's black is honestly as racist is not voting for someone because he's black. Though things unfolded to change my mind, at one point, I'd have been thrilled to vote for Michael Steel. One of the current candidates I'm most excited about is Herman Cain... I don't care what color someone is as long as their head is in the right place.

Bev -- my feelings about personal responsibility are a key reason why I am a Republican and identify with the common sense conservatives. You do not find these ideals about personal responsibility in liberal, democrat or progressive politicians (and progressive politics have poisoned both sides of the aisle). Liberals, democrats and progressives want to foster government dependence and control.

_PS 30 Facebook "likes" for this thread right now!!! That might be an LB record? _


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## miniwhinny (Jun 13, 2011)

CharlesFamily said:


> but if Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney/Sarah Palin are the best my party can come up with, then it is a sad state of affairs. (And I like Sarah Palin as a person - I enjoyed watching her reality show and I think she is great, I just don't want her running our country).
> 
> Barbara


That list is hilarious...and sadly oh so true



But I have to agree with Barbara. If Sarah Palin gets the nomination I'm NOT going to be able to vote for her - not even in principle to get the party in. The rest of the world is laughing so hard at us that she's the best we can come up with and top it all off - I'm a scientist, facts are facts - the woman thinks the world is 4000 years old - SERIOUSLY !!!!! Give me a break - if you want to be that delusional then do it in the privacy of your own home but someone in charge of the most powerful nation on the planet - who thinks the world is 4000 years old !!!! That's frickin' scarey



!


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## Jill (Jun 13, 2011)

Don't forget to watch the *republican contenders debate* tonight, 8pm ET on CNN! It should be pretty interesting... Romney, Bachmann, Gingrich, Santorum, Pawlenty, Cain and Paul will all participate -- naturally some are much more "exciting" than others. I can't wait


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## ohmt (Jun 13, 2011)

Ugh Pawlenty-the worst governor Minnesota has ever had (which is really saying something considering we had Ventura).


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## miniwhinny (Jun 13, 2011)

Jill said:


> Don't forget to watch the *republican contenders debate* tonight, 8pm ET on CNN! It should be pretty interesting... Romney, Bachmann, Gingrich, Santorum, Pawlenty, Cain and Paul will all participate -- naturally some are much more "exciting" than others. I can't wait


I'm going to be watching. I don't think people realize how important this election is going to be for the future of our Nation! If you picture a cliff with a 1000ft drop - we as a nation are leaning over it at a 45 degree angle - I really believe we're that close to total economic disaster. As an "insider" to the housing/banking markets what's going to happen in 2011 - when the MERS papers have been re signed and chain of title has been re established and those MILLIONS and MILLIONS of homes hit the market - all heck will break loose. All we'll need for that 45 degree angle to become 46 is one more Dem taking one more dollar from the earners. We're sitting at 4 in 10 homeowners underwater today - I'm quite confidently prediction it's going to be 6 in 10 a year from now. With that many people tightening their financial belts and not spending our economy is going to get mighty short of $'s.

You know with gravity and momentum how easy falling is compared to righting yourself when your leaning at a 45 degree angle? It's almost impossible - but it HAS to be done and it HAS to be done now because once we've fallen that extra bit - there may be no coming back.


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## CharlesFamily (Jun 13, 2011)

Jill said:


> Don't forget to watch the *republican contenders debate* tonight, 8pm ET on CNN! It should be pretty interesting... Romney, Bachmann, Gingrich, Santorum, Pawlenty, Cain and Paul will all participate -- naturally some are much more "exciting" than others. I can't wait



Thank you for sharing this! I didn't know about it and I will be sure to set my DVR. I do try and be as informed as I can when it comes to voting. And I am REALLY hoping my party can find someone with a chance of winning to run in 2012!

Barbara


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## Jill (Jun 13, 2011)

I've got our DVRs set to grab it. I actually don't know if I can stand to watch it tonight because I know it will wind me up. I may not be able to fall asleep until 2am if I do



Thinking I may be better served by watching it tomorrow morning but for sure I will watch it before I am told by the media who won



I thought hands down, Cain was the most impressive and exciting during last month's debate


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## tagalong (Jun 13, 2011)

> Hmmmmm - Number 12 absolutely applies to the dogmatic extremists of both parties!


Many of the points listed apply to both extremes! Not that either extreme would ever admit it.

And some of the points are not really factual - but that is normal for this viral email kind of satire.. they're funny coming from either "side"...







> That's not saying that I am happy with the way things are going now on a National level, and there are a great many things I don't agree with


. 
Same here.... and I am neither Democrat or Republican.



> And, I'm sorry, but if Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney/Sarah Palin are the best my party can come up with, then it is a sad state of affairs. (And I like Sarah Palin as a person - I enjoyed watching her reality show and I think she is great, I just don't want her running our country).


Ah yes - Newt "Pay No Attention To What I Said Yesterday" Gingrich - whose entire senior campaign staff has thrown in the towel and walked away... and Sarah - who IMO would rather be a celebrity than a politician. I cannot blame her - there is far more money in that than say, being the Governor of Alaska. Herman Cain is interesting, but likely too extreme for many. Mitt Romney is the best bet. And even then, he needs more... charisma? Something, anyway.

I am actually hoping that Palin states that she is running instead of doing her obvious campaign trip in her bus and being coy about it. Watching her and Michelle Bachman debate could be very... entertaining...





I have never understood the blind voting for the party that so many seem to do - I have always voted for the individual as opposed to voting along any party lines.



Always.


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## Miniv (Jun 13, 2011)

I'm amazed that CNN is covering the REPUBLICAN debate. This may be worth watching...... I know that Larry is interested. Wonder if they are doing it live across the country or if it will be timed delay for the West Coast.


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## tagalong (Jun 13, 2011)

> I'm amazed that CNN is covering the REPUBLICAN debate.


Why amazed? They have always covered the more important/significant debates on both sides. Always. _*puzzled*_


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## Jill (Jun 13, 2011)

tagalong said:


> Why amazed? They have always covered the more important/significant debates on both sides. Always. _*puzzled*_


Voting here in the USA elections next year, Tag?


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## tagalong (Jun 13, 2011)

Jill said:


> Voting here in the USA elections next year, Tag?


What on earth does that have to do with what I said about CNN?





You know I am not as I am not a citizen (even though I have been sent two jury summonses in the past and I think they take those names from the voter list) - so the snide remarks are not required. Wow.

*Jill*, I thought you were not even lowering yourself to "talking" to me as I am not an American citizen even though I live here legally, pay my taxes, work hard and contribute endless hours of volunteer work to the community. Far more than most of the citizens I know. Yeah, I am such a heinous person. Thank goodness it is a free country with free speech, just like the one I was born in. You know - that supposedly awful place north of the 49th parallel.

That does not prevent me from observing and thinking and learning and listening and researching and pondering and having an opinion and enjoying a balanced discussion. I am sorry that you chose to sneer instead.

And if I could vote, it would not be for a party but for the individual. That is the way I have always voted. Wait, I already said that...





Apparently that is worthy of scorn.

BTW - it is Homeland Security/Immigration that prevents me from being a citizen by now. Not my choice. When you follow the rules and go by the book according to your qualifications and job, you progress through a series of visas that do not simply entitle you to a Green Card - that is a process that can take years (and is taking years). You have to have had a Green Card for 5 years before you can apply for citizenship. Silly me, following the rules like that. There is a Green Card lottery you know, where GCs are just handed out with no regard to who gets them - if your name is drawn, you get one! No need to already have a job. Canada, Mexico, Great Britain and a few other countries are not allowed to be part of that lottery. And thus many of us are stuck in the visa spiral.

Both Bush and Obama have suggested amnesty to illegals and a free pass to GCs and citizenship. _Are you kidding me??!! _That is a kick in the teeth to all of us who have followed the rules, paid our dues and done this all legally. It is not easy. We have jumped through all the flaming hoops and done whatever was asked of us. Neither one of them cared/cares about those of us who go by the book. Why should they? We are small in number next to millions of illegals who will then vote for whoever gives them that free pass. No politician cares about anything more than getting elected again. No matter what "side" they are on.


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## ohmt (Jun 13, 2011)

Tag-I think we might be related



I so love reading your comments. It is plain to see you do your homework and not just from the many extremely biased sources that so many people seem to base their opinions solely from.


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## miniwhinny (Jun 13, 2011)

Tag-I think we might be related I so love reading your comments. It is plain to see you do your homework and not just from the many extremely biased sources that so many people seem to base their opinions solely from.

ohmt - sorry to kidnap your entire post but I couldn't have said it better!

Tag - we came here legally too many moons ago. The only way you could get here on a green card from Britain back then was to be highly educated (doctor, lawyer etc or independently wealthy with a relative here to sponsor you)it took years and years and background checks etc. I don't remember seeing the ability to commit crimes or pick strawberries as a qualifier. And I agree - letting illegals have amnesty is SUCH an insult for those of us who did it LEGALLY.


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## Mark & Sharon Bullington (Jun 14, 2011)

I voted democratic in the last election because I can - and do think for myself. I am not led around like a pack of sheep bleating in the night. Jill, I find your post, as I do most of your posts, mean spirited, one sided, negative, and in a lots of ways uninformed. In short the way most of you, IMHO, moronic tea baggers believe. Th Republicants - wrap yourselves in the flag and pseudo religion nd try to scare the heck out of everyone. As I said - I make up my own mind - I normally don't comment on your drivel - but this was a new low even for the likes of you.


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## Crabby-Chicken (Jun 14, 2011)

Mark and Sharon you are awesome!


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## Jill (Jun 14, 2011)

Mark & Sharon Bullington said:


> I voted democratic in the last election because I can - and do think for myself. I am not led around like a pack of sheep bleating in the night. Jill, I find your post, as I do most of your posts, mean spirited, one sided, negative, and in a lots of ways uninformed. In short the way most of you, IMHO, moronic tea baggers believe. Th Republicants - wrap yourselves in the flag and pseudo religion nd try to scare the heck out of everyone. As I said - I make up my own mind - I normally don't comment on your drivel - but this was a new low even for the likes of you.





Crabby-Chicken said:


> Mark and Sharon you are awesome!


I'm mean? Easily lead? Negative? Speak drivel? Uninformed? A moronic tea bagger??? Pseudo Religious? Wrapped in the Flag? _Ooooh, okay._ *Mark*, *Sharon* and *Crab* -- Just be sure to vote next fall. All indications are your left field liberal, not to be confused by any facts, point of view is slated be under-represented






Oh, and BTW -- Happy Flag Day





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_"If it were true that conservatives were racist, sexist, homophobic, fascist, stupid, inflexible, angry, and self-righteous, shouldn't their arguments be easy to deconstruct? Someone who is making a point out of anger, ideology, inflexibility, or resentment would presumably construct a flimsy argument. So why can't the argument itself be dismembered rather than the speaker's personal style or hidden motives? Why the evasions?" _-- Ann Coulter


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## Mark & Sharon Bullington (Jun 14, 2011)

You can darn well bet I'll vote again this fall Jill - the same as I have done ever since allowed this privledge. I am also proud to say that I wore a uniform for this great country to defend the right to vote and to speak my mind. I am not saying you said I didn't. I am just so darn tired of your political rhetoric. I doubt you have changed one persons mind about how they were going to vote or how they feel - especially in the mean spirited, put down type of attacks you seem to prefer. I do not agree with everything President Obama says or does - but I was brought up to respect the office of The President and to work with my fellow Americans to try to lead the country forward - not just sit and whine and bitch about everything. As a great American once said "Ask not what your Country can do for you - ask what YOU can do for your Country". I may not have agreed with everything John F. Kennedy said or did either - but I sure as heck agree with that. And we know which he party he was affiliated with.


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## garyo (Jun 14, 2011)

Mark & Sharon Bullington said:


> I voted democratic in the last election because I can - and do think for myself. I am not led around like a pack of sheep bleating in the night. Jill, I find your post, as I do most of your posts, mean spirited, one sided, negative, and in a lots of ways uninformed. In short the way most of you, IMHO, moronic tea baggers believe. Th Republicants - wrap yourselves in the flag and pseudo religion nd try to scare the heck out of everyone. As I said - I make up my own mind - I normally don't comment on your drivel - but this was a new low even for the likes of you.


_*That is simply the best political post ever on LB.*_


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## Jill (Jun 15, 2011)

Mark, seems you put a lot more stock into reading what I say than vice versa


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## Sonya (Jun 15, 2011)

> In short the way most of you, IMHO, moronic tea baggers believe. Th Republicants - wrap yourselves in the flag and pseudo religion nd try to scare the heck out of everyone.


hmmm...mean spirited, one sided, and negative? I certainly believe the above statement qualifies!


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## Jill (Jun 15, 2011)

Sonya said:


> hmmm...mean spirited, one sided, and negative? I certainly believe the above statement qualifies!


That's kinda what I thought, too, Sonya... but you know me! I'm a tough lady and can take it. Plus, I just love the irony


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## tagalong (Jun 15, 2011)

Ah, but the real irony is that Mark made one frustrated post in that vein - and you have made many, *Jill*. You have sneered and insulted people over and over again and yet seem to pride yourself on that. And you have often tended to wrap yourself in the flag while doing so - _the last time I checked, that flag stands for all viewpoints and all opinions, not just one "side". _



> All indications are your left field liberal, *not to be confused by any facts*, point of view is slated be under-represented


As we have seen in repeated threads, the part I bolded there ^ is not exclusive to those labelled as left field liberal. Far from it. Time and again I have seen talking heads' _opinions_ presented as facts (Beck, anyone?) - or bloggers' _opinions_ presented as facts - or even viral emails being taken seriously when a simple google or visit to snopes can show they are not factual in any way. Ummmm.... I think you made the same prediction in 2008 as well....

Nor are such labels as "left field liberal" easy to stamp on someone. I do not know of a single person - myself included - that are all extreme left or extreme right about everything. Most people have different takes on different subjects that vary across that left/right compass needle. My views on immigration and yes, *ange*r about the idea of illegals being granted amnesty and fast-tracked to citzenship or handed green cards are frowned upon by many of my friends. However, we can discuss the issues without sneering and belittling anyone else's opinions or concerns.

*Mark*, I do not really care for the term tea bagger - even though many Tea Partiers used it at first until they realized it had another meaning.





So - that R debate is over and was a bit of a yawner. Romney came out ahead of the pack... Rick Santorum should reconsider running. I think the R's best option would be Chris Christie from New Jersey - he has a charisma of his own, a distinct style, speaks out, rarely seems to deal in political doublespeak and beating around the bush and would be the best choice. I may disagree with him on many issues - but the Republicans need someone like _that. _

_A third party - and a fourth and fifth party - is desperately needed here_. The Tea Party was a start - but more are needed. Everything is not always A or B or black or white or left and right. As a further reform/advancement, the electoral college needs to be done away with. It originally served a purpose but now is just an added step that distances the actual voters from the process and the results.


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## Mark & Sharon Bullington (Jun 15, 2011)

Jill - actually I put NO stock into your political posts on this forum. They are generally so narrow minded that it seems you could look through a key hole with both eyes at the same time. Your initial post was so insulting I finally had to say something - so if that was your intent in posting - you did succeed. As I said, I do not agree with our President on everything - I doubt there would ever be a president I would totally agree with 100% of the time. But rather than disagree and degrade, I choose the higher road of disagree and support.

On other than political subjects I find your posts informative and fun.


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## Jill (Jun 15, 2011)

Mark & Sharon Bullington said:


> Jill - actually I put NO stock into your political posts on this forum. They are generally so narrow minded that it seems you could look through a key hole with both eyes at the same time. Your initial post was so insulting I finally had to say something - so if that was your intent in posting - you did succeed. As I said, I do not agree with our President on everything - I doubt there would ever be a president I would totally agree with 100% of the time. But rather than disagree and degrade, I choose the higher road of disagree and support.
> 
> On other than political subjects I find your posts informative and fun.


Mark, you know, "whatever".

If you want to think I'm narrow minded, that is up to you and causes me no harm. I am very passionate about my political beliefs and I spend a lot of time researching and learning. Daily and from many sources. To feel "decided" on important issues is not narrow minded but again, your opinion of my political stand point is of no consequence to me. Some people of a liberal point of view, though they may decline the title, are so open minded they can't even take their own side in an argument (yes, an old joke).

The original post was not meant seriously, but humorously, and I'd actually get a kick out of the same tone but "against" the right side of the aisle. A client shared it with me and I only wish I could say I myself wrote it.

Finally, for whatever it's worth, I appreciate the last sentiment of your post.


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## HGFarm (Jun 15, 2011)

Havent read all the posts but Jill, I knew coming from you it would have some humor (or not) attached, LOL The 'sheeple' need to stand up for what is right and get this country out of the gutter that it is in and stop letting the govt and big corps rule everyone's life. I could probably write a very opinionated book on this subject but thanks Jill, I needed a smile today.


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## Jill (Jun 16, 2011)

I'm glad you got a smile from it, Laurie


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## HGFarm (Jun 16, 2011)

<whispering> Jill, I wouldn't admit it publicly but sometimes you and I think a lot alike, lol


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## Jill (Jun 16, 2011)

HGFarm said:


> <whispering> Jill, I wouldn't admit it publicly but sometimes you and I think a lot alike, lol






PS I made it _really_ quiet so no one else would hear


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## andi (Jun 16, 2011)

I have very little involvement in politics, mostly because I find it far too difficult to get honest logical information that could help me form an educated opinion. As a young person who is now seriously thinking about who they vote for and wanting to make an educated choice, I wish there were more mature “adults” who could actually put together a logical explanation of why they support one side or the other. Most of what I see are extremely insulting “jokes” like this one and endless rants disguised as “debates”. No one ever considers modifying their idea or opinion because of a valid point the other side brought up. But honestly, with the way opinions are often presented, I can understand why. When people are making insulting demeaning jokes and treating you like you are an idiot it is very hard to not get defensive. At the end of the day, I am not informed enough to have a strong opinion one way or another, but I can def. have an opinion on what is a constructive way to voice your opinion and what is just close-minded and insulting to the most extreme extent. The way someone voices their opinion when they are “passionate” about something says alot about their character. It’s easy to be logical and cool minded when you are talking about your favorite book, but throw politics in and you see people’s true colors. I have many opinions on horse breeding and showing and consider myself well informed and knowledgeable on the subject. Sometimes others choices seem so obviously wrong that I would love to voice my opinion, but even when asked I still would use some level of decency and tact. Could you imagine Jill if I made a Top Ten List, Top Twelve Reasons Jill uses to Buy a Horse, and then it was just an insult fest on your personal decisions, every one being tong in cheek and laugh out loud Funny, at your expense of course? Then to top it off, when you get offended, as you should, I say whatever, it was just meant to be funny, and then have other folks respond agreeing it was funny and then banter back and forth with them. No matter how right I may be it would be WRONG in every single way, just like the attitude in this topic.


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## Jill (Jun 17, 2011)

James, I'm just going to have to conclude that you don't appreciate political humor



A lot of people don't, but it would be hard to accidentally read this thread never suspecting it might be political and that it might be poking fun at democrats



I'm not at all sorry I shared the "Top 12" list



I really do not get the comparison you make, but that's okay



I'm as passionate about why I choose the horses I own as I am about my politics


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## andi (Jun 17, 2011)

Jill I have a wonderful sense of humor and it is very hard for me to consider something distasteful or offensive. What I don’t agree with is how humor is being used here to give you license to be completely insulting to anyone who disagrees with you. Just cause it is politics doesn’t make it OK. I believe this was probably one of the reasons these topics were banned. Things are posted that would never be allowed if the subject wasn’t politics. If this subject was ridiculing how you chose your horses it would be deleted immediately, funny or not, right or not. You are a smart women Jill, but I have watched you skirt around logic time after time in these political topics. Normally, when defending your view you are very logical and mature in your explanation of your opinions. In these political posts you resort to saying it was just a joke or literally, “whatever”, or my all time favorite, I don’t have any interest in foreigners opinions of American politics. How would you feel Jill if I posted a horse for a critique and after you replied with your opinion, I replied,” thanks Jill, but I’m not interested in the opinion of someone who hasn’t been to Worlds, please don’t take it personal.” Then I just kept posting similar topics over and over, some that were even offending you, and every time you replied I just said, “Not interested Jill, you haven’t been to worlds.” While I am sure you would be a big girl and just stop reading my posts, that wouldn’t make my posts right. And I would hope someone would stand up for you and tell me how rude I was.


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## Jill (Jun 17, 2011)

So, you're offended because I personally don't care to consider or weed through the opinions about US politics from people who aren't US citizens? That's how I feel and I've gone into the reasons before. Doesn't matter if no one else agrees (though I know that's not the case). It's up to me to decide who's opinion I value on particular subjects. When it comes to the opinions of non-US citizens on US politics, I am not personally interested but I am sure when it comes to a million other topics, I would be.

Or it's annoying that I didn't care to defend the ridiculous nasty tea bagger types of things Mark said? Why would I bother?

People who do not like my political posts shouldn't read them, like I absolutely do not read some of the replies and skip over other threads that are not of interest. People also shouldn't be angry over my opinions about things... We each live with our own opinions and not anyone else's unless we want to. If people want to not like me because of my opinions, I am fine with that choice. I'd rather be liked or not based on what I really stand up for vs. what someone thinks I might stand up for.

While I have always thought you're a great guy and still do, you can be upset about any of these things about me and a lot more if you would like, and maybe I'll bust out the thesaurus and look up "whatever"





You're you, I'm me and we have our own beliefs about a wide range of subjects. You say you haven't spent much time finding the politics that suit you but it's something I've been thinking about for 25 or so years and something I spend time keeping up with daily. I'm passionate about politics, like political humor, and have things to say when it comes to politics. I cannot pretend I think something I don't especially when the topics are something I've spent a lot of time thinking and learning about.


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## andi (Jun 17, 2011)

Jill would it be crossing a line or in poor taste for me to post a Top Twelve list of what criteria you use to purschase your Horses.


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## Jill (Jun 17, 2011)

andi said:


> Jill would it be crossing a line or in poor taste for me to post a Top Twelve list of what criteria you use to purschase your Horses.


James, I think it would be wrong and against the rules to start a thread targeted at any individual forum member. That's not what I've done.

If you're trying to get my goat, I guess horses aren't the way. I'm not insecure or self conscious about the horses I decide to own. I know that Harvey and I lucky to have some really outstanding animals in our herd.

Why not come up with a "Top 12" list of why people voted Republican in 2008? If it were toned like the list I posted, I'd even crack a smile


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## HGFarm (Jun 17, 2011)

I agree with Jill in that if you dont like the subject, dont read it, or if you do, walk away if you dont like it. Everyone has their own opinions about everything in life and you can get upset about it all, or agree to disagree. If folks can't have a sense of humor about things in life, it could become an ugly ugly place.

Folks need to pick their battles, and dont waste energy on things that are out of your control. It will not change Jill's mind, or probably anyone else's, by posting when many folks are very passionate about their thoughts and beliefs- and their humor. And if people can't laugh at themselves, well..........


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## tagalong (Jun 17, 2011)

> James, I think it would be wrong and against the rules to start a thread targeted at any individual forum member. That's not what I've done.


*But to be fair, you have done it in the past - repeatedly*. And that is one reason the political threads were banned for a while - they got personal just because someone did not agree with someone or chose to have different political views (instead of following one line of thought exclusively).

Just as you made it personal with your little _Voting in the next election, Tag? _ dig.





Whatever.





I can disagree with others politically and yet we can still discuss political issues civilly and share our views _*waves at __*miniwhinny**_ - without being dismissive of each other's thoughts, concerns and opinions. Who knows, we may even learn something along the way.

Many of us read opinions from all sides and use a variety of media ... that helps give us a better idea of what is going on. You never get an accurate view if you shut out anything that is even remotely contrary to your "comfort zone" or belief system. I even watch Glenn Beck fairly regularly late at nght - and the kind of conspiracy-driven fearmongering and somewhat pompous lecturing down to his "fans" that he delights in is completely removed from me - but I think it is important to listen to all viewpoints.

IMO Red Eye and the Daily Show do a much better job with politics than all the supposed "serious" talking heads.

The viral email that started this thread was somewhat amusing and a bit lame at times



- sort of like a ho-hum Jay Leno routine... as most of those things are. Not a big deal to me... I can laugh at it!





And as I said to *Mark* - I do not like the term tea-bagger... and IMO there is no reason for us to carry on like some of the hateful types that were videoed in TP lines and lines for Palin rallies (she would have been embarrassed by the way some of those people acted). *The extreme rhetoric and overreacting at either end of the spectrum should not be what we take our cues from... JMO. *



> I agree with Jill in that if you dont like the subject, dont read it, or if you do, walk away if you dont like it.


*HGF*, you do not think people should be able to voice their own opinions about a topic? If you disagree, you should just shut up and walk away? I agree that one should not get hostile and upset but polite, healthy political discussion is a _good_ thing... :


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## andi (Jun 17, 2011)

I do not mind a good debate, which is why I reply. For me this debate has nothing to do with politics, it has to do with how people express their opinions and in this case use humor as an excuse to insult and demean people who see things differently. Forum rules or not, the Top Twelve List I mentioned would be wrong. The only reason I chose horses is because I know we are both active, passionate and educated when it comes to them. Therefore it would be arrogant of me to assume that I am so superior to you that I could post something insulting and demeaning your horse choices. Of course we can’t admit that, because that would make this list just as insulting.

I pick this battle because I feel it is the MOST important one, maybe a bit bigger of a battle than some saw this, but one that I have thought about extensively for the past 2 years. The way seemingly honest and fair people rationalize in their own minds their wrong doings is the real root of most problems in this world. From insulting jokes at the expense of others to problems in our Miniature Horse registries to the current situation our Country is in. Some may think I am overreacting or blowing this out of proportion, but therein lies the problem.

"Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."


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## Jill (Jun 17, 2011)

HGFarm said:


> I agree with Jill in that if you dont like the subject, dont read it, or if you do, walk away if you dont like it. Everyone has their own opinions about everything in life and you can get upset about it all, or agree to disagree. If folks can't have a sense of humor about things in life, it could become an ugly ugly place.
> 
> Folks need to pick their battles, and dont waste energy on things that are out of your control. It will not change Jill's mind, or probably anyone else's, by posting when many folks are very passionate about their thoughts and beliefs- and their humor. And if people can't laugh at themselves, well..........


Thanks, Laurie


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## heartkranch (Jun 17, 2011)

One thing I learned on here, don't talk about religions, and politics.


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## HGFarm (Jun 17, 2011)

Tagalong, there is a difference in 'healthy discussion' where everyone views their own opinions- and we ALL have them and borderlining or actually, personally attacking someone, regardless of their opinions.

I took some of the comments made as more of a personal attack on the OP, rather than the discussion itself, which was humor about why people voted as they did. The OP was not pointed at anyone in particular here, however it seems to be turned into an attack on the person who made the OP. And it seems that particular people were offended by the post. That is ok, but dont attack the poster- you can say you disagree without being mean to the OP or degrading them. Attacking the OP or someone else who offers their opinions on it is not 'healthy discussion' to me.

And I agree with you that it is good to listen to all kinds of views and opinions on things and then take it all with a grain of salt. I just find it odd that people take a political joke (or any joke) and turn it into something totally personal as if it were directed at them.

Folks, it's Friday- let's all relax and look forward to a wonderful weekend.





I have always noticed that people will never laugh at anything that is not based on truth.

- Will Rogers


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## andi (Jun 17, 2011)

Laurie, I was never personally attacking Jill. My point was that weather it is a personal attack or degrading “joke” about a group, both are out of line. As I write that, I seem to remember a time when the idea of a degrading Joke about a group was actually the bigger offence . . .


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## ~Lisa~ (Jun 17, 2011)

andi said:


> I
> 
> I. The way seemingly honest and fair people rationalize in their own minds their wrong doings is the real root of most problems in this world. From insulting jokes at the expense of others to problems in our Miniature Horse registries to the current situation our Country is in. "Whenever evil wins, it is only by default: by the moral failure of those who evade the fact that there can be no compromise on basic principles."


James... you are very wise and honestly I think this statement above is one of the best things I have ever read on this forum

As for the rest of this dribble.. I do wonder why the need to post such things. It is clear Jill will never change any minds with her political threads even if the posts by her are snide, rude, mean spirited or tunnel visioned.. and why others try to "make" her see her comments as such.

Total waste of time and doesnt seem like the comments will stop-

seems to me (although the world rarely runs according to Lisa) that the best way to stop the insults and snide remarks would be to simply ignore these threads let the 2 or 3 people that feel this way post away with eachother and everyone else let it go.. perhaps only then will they stop?

Oh well just my thoughts.. frankly I try to not let politics get in the way of my personal feelings for anyone - we all have different life experiences which bring us to the ideals we have.. but that said.. intolerance on any level is really unacceptable to me be it about race, religion, sexual orientation or politics but hey that is just me


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## Jill (Jun 17, 2011)

~Lisa~ said:


> James... you are very wise and honestly I think this statement above is one of the best things I have ever read on this forum
> 
> As for the rest of this dribble.. I do wonder why the need to post such things. It is clear Jill will never change any minds with her political threads even if the posts by her are snide, rude, mean spirited or tunnel visioned.. and why others try to "make" her see her comments as such.
> 
> ...


Lisa, over the years, I've found it amusing to see how many times you chime in with your two cents on a thread you think is heated or controversial, and then advise others to basically not fan the flames. The contrast between your advice and your action is ironically amusing.


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## ~Lisa~ (Jun 17, 2011)

Thanks for the invite to play Jill



but on this occasion I will choose to take the higher road - LIke I said in my post nothing I say will change the way you choose to address others on political threads and nothing you say will change how I feel about politics -likewise nothing I say will have any change or effect on you and your opinions on this matter

Hope you have a wonderful weekend playing your foals - boy I miss having those cute little babies to play with I know I will be making the best of my weekend as well!


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## Jill (Jun 18, 2011)

~Lisa~ said:


> James... you are very wise and honestly I think this statement above is one of the best things I have ever read on this forum
> 
> As for the rest of this dribble.. I do wonder why the need to post such things. *It is clear Jill will never change any minds with her political threads even if the posts by her are snide, rude, mean spirited or tunnel visioned.. and why others try to "make" her see her comments as such. *
> 
> ...





~Lisa~ said:


> Thanks for the invite to play Jill
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lisa, I'm glad to see you decided to change course. Since we're friends, maybe you can see how my feelings were a little hurt. Your interpretation doesn't match up at all with my actual intent. Have a great weekend at your show -- hope you get lots of good ribbons!


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## miniwhinny (Jun 19, 2011)

tagalong said:


> I can disagree with others politically and yet we can still discuss political issues civilly and share our views _*waves at __*miniwhinny**_ - without being dismissive of each other's thoughts, concerns and opinions. Who knows, we may even learn something along the way.


HAHA waving back at ya



Maybe that's because we're well traveled, well educated individuals who are self confident enough to want to value other opinions and have manners enough to listen.

I don't know why people even pay attention. If some mome came on and told me not to talk on political threads I'd simply tell them not to read my posts HAHAHAHAHHAHA. Post away Tag.



There's a whole bunch of us who value your opinion whether you're voting or not - lol face it - half the Americans who can vote aren't going to





Just remember

"Haters gonna Hate"


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## Marty (Jun 19, 2011)

Your resident forever hippy has arrived. PEACE! LOVE! FLOWER POWER! Make love, not war is the only answer!





Now is the time for us to all join hands and sing a great chorus of Kumbaya and reflect.

GIVE PEACE A CHANCE!

(I think in a past life I must have been related to John Lennon, very wise man!)

This is for your dining pleasure. Enjoy with my compliments.


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## maestoso (Aug 6, 2011)

Interestingly enough, the same ridiculous junk can be found mocking republicans.......... for your reading pleasure





12 Reasons to Vote Republican in 2012

1) Because Jesus said "Thou shall give tax cuts to the obscenely wealthy."

2) If you believe the government should stay out of your life! Unless of course, it's at the doctors, at the church, in the bedroom, involves guns, or a woman's body.

3) Because despite the only reference to God in any government documents from the Founding Era is the word "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence, which isn't actually a governing document, we are a Christian Nation founded on Christian principles!

4) Because even though gay marriage wouldn't affect my marriage, it's still wrong! (Look what Jesus said about it! Oh wait...)

5) Because women don't NEED rights, dangit!

6) Because we need to help those who were born able to help themselves!

7) Because rich people need tax breaks more than poor people need food!

8) Because we need to invade countries and outspend the rest of the world combined on defense instead of fixing our schools!

9) Because lower taxes magically increases jobs and increases revenue!*

10) Because lower spending magically increases jobs and increases revenue!*

11) Regulations are for European hippies! God will save the environment! Jesus Jesus Jesus, God, the Bible, guns, Amen.

12) Because science is a global conspiracy. We don't need to ejumacate our kids about no evolution or no global climate change! God will save the environment! Jesus Jesus Jesus, God, the Bible, guns, Amen.

*Giving more guns to everyone would also have the same effect.

See, don't you get it now? We all have to vote Republican in 2012 to save 'Merica!


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

maestoso said:


> Interestingly enough, the same ridiculous junk can be found mocking republicans.......... for your reading pleasure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Because Jesus said "Thou shall give tax cuts to the obscenely wealthy."

See 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 below.

2) If you believe the government should stay out of your life! Unless of course, it's at the doctors, at the church, in the bedroom, involves guns, or a woman's body.

Republicans advocate for more government control at the doctors' offices? In church? With Guns? ... pretty much just the oposite.

3) Because despite the only reference to God in any government documents from the Founding Era is the word "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence, which isn't actually a governing document, we are a Christian Nation founded on Christian principles!

We are in large a Christian nation, and our Nation doesn't benefit when faith is ridiculed.

4) Because even though gay marriage wouldn't affect my marriage, it's still wrong! (Look what Jesus said about it! Oh wait...).

I personally support equal marriage rights for all committed couples and hope the GOP will update some views in that department -- however, it is personally very far down on my list of concerns when we have things like National Security and the economy on which to focus.

5) Because women don't NEED rights, dangit!

Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingraham... just a small sample of some pretty high profile and powerful republican women.

6) Because we need to help those who were born able to help themselves!

Sorry I wasn't born needing a handout and have been paying my own way since I was 16. I'm just so ashamed.

7) Because rich people need tax breaks more than poor people need food!

Anyone getting a paycheck from someone on welfare?

8) Because we need to invade countries and outspend the rest of the world combined on defense instead of fixing our schools!

Get the unions out of schools and be rid of the dead weight teachers they shelter and watch that system stop bleeding students and money.

9) Because lower taxes magically increases jobs and increases revenue!*

So when the governement raises your boss' taxes, and you lose your job -- how does that make you better off? (oh, you probably have a union school job...)

10) Because lower spending magically increases jobs and increases revenue!*

Check the math -- lower spending means less revenue (tax dollars) spent and more left over / less of a deficit. Really. Get out your calculator and see if it's not true!

11) Regulations are for European hippies! God will save the environment! Jesus Jesus Jesus, God, the Bible, guns, Amen.

The USA shouldn't emulate a European welfare state. Notice what's been going on over there?

12) Because science is a global conspiracy. We don't need to ejumacate our kids about no evolution or no global climate change! God will save the environment! Jesus Jesus Jesus, God, the Bible, guns, Amen.

Did you hear about the faked reports and dishonest science / descredited scientists behind the Global Warming and Green Movement. Oh, snap... They didn't cover that on NPR and MSNBC.

*Giving more guns to everyone would also have the same effect.

So, is this the part where I get to show off my concealed weapons permit?!?!

See, don't you get it now? We all have to vote Republican in 2012 to save 'Merica!

God Bless The USA.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

Jill said:


> [/color]
> 
> [/color]
> 
> ...


Thank you for reminding us, Jill. I had forgotten that the EVIL teachers are the ones who have caused the downward spiraling of the economy and are destroying our country! How silly of me! I thought it was the greed of the bankers handing out unsecured loans to whoever wanted them to boost their bottom line, and then getting bailed out and walking away unscathed with their golden parachutes. But you are absolutely right - dead weight teachers are the majority in this country,instead of the small minority of the thousands of dedicated teachers and THAT is why our country is currently in this economic mess.

By all means, let's "break the backs of the unions in our schools" (Ohio Governor John Kasich). That will fix everything!



And you know, those union school jobs are SO cushy! Jill, I can't exactly remember what your job is - but I believe it is some sort of financial advisor to wealthy clients. Tell me, how many of your wealthy clients that you advise were school teachers? And I don't mean that the wife taught while the husband worked in his CEO job - but that the main source of their income was from teaching in a public school. I would really like to know that percentage. Because the way you make it sound, I can't believe the corporate world isn't knocking me over to get to my teaching job!

Barbara (a public school teacher in Ohio who is NOT a member of a union, married to a public school teacher who IS)


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

CharlesFamily said:


> Tell me, how many of your wealthy clients that you advise were school teachers? And I don't mean that the wife taught while the husband worked in his CEO job - but that the main source of their income was from teaching in a public school.


Off the top of my head on this Sunday morning, I can think of 19 of my clients by name who are or were teachers. As to being the primary bread winner... are you diminishing the value of working if you're not the primary breadwinner? Vilifying corporate America? (Feeling a tinge hypocritical?) Class warfare, much?


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

Um, no - I am absolutely not diminishing the value of working if you are not the primary breadwinner. But there is a difference in income when say, like our family, both are teachers and when some are like our friend Karen, who has retired, but was a fantastic art teacher. But her husband owns several car dealerships. There is a HUGE difference in our yearly income. That is what I was saying. I wanted to know the percentage of your clients where teaching was their main/primary occupation (the one that made the most or equal money in the marriage). I'm still unclear how you got class warfare out of my statement, but hopefully you understand now what I was asking.

And, nope - not feeling hypocritical, just felt like going on the attack when I feel attacked - that's all!


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't understand your goal here, Barbara...

In order to really benefit from my services, a person or couple really needs to have accumulated something of a size I can work with and enhance.

People know salary levels and earnings potentials when they select their careers.

I don't get where you're going but am going to have to figure you're not personally soliciting my services.

Am I supposed to be shamed over my client and marketing demographic? ... gotta pay the overhead, staff and myself.

Are teachers who have high earning spouses not as worthy? As teachers? Or my clients?

What's the point in plain English? You've lost me.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Also, if it's a "Jill can't relate to teachers" thing... my sister is a teacher (one of the best in her county), my sister in law is a teacher, my brother in law is a teacher, some of my friends are teachers -- in addition to the clients I loosely numbered before.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

Jill said:


> I don't understand your goal here, Barbara...
> 
> In order to really benefit from my services, a person or couple really needs to have accumulated something of a size I can work with and enhance.
> 
> ...



Okay - I'll try to explain what I am saying. The Republican party, by and large, has taken to attacking public school teachers and making them seem like the villians in our country's current economic downturn. I understand it is more about breaking up the unions, which are large Democratic party supporters, just as the Democrats ridicule and villify corporate America because they by and large fund the Republican party.

I was trying to make the point that the teaching jobs are not as cushy as so many would like to make them out to be, so I'm not sure why we are coming under attack. I am NOT complaining about what I or my husband earn. I feel we are fairly compensated for what we do and for our level of education (just for the record, we do NOT each make $80,000 - $100,000 a year which are some figures I have heard being thrown around). But I am trying to understand why taking my salary and retirement benefits to "fix" our current economic downturn seems to be the answer being thrown about the most? By asking you what percentage of your wealthy clients were school teachers as their primary occupation, I was simply trying to make the point that teaching will never make us "wealthy." You proved my point in your statement above, "a person or couple really needs to have accumulated something of a size I can work with and enhance." I take it to mean that then, in fact, none of your wealthy clients had teaching as their primary occupation, which made them wealthy enough to have needed your services.

And I LOVE this quote, "People know salary levels and earnings potentials when they select their careers."




Absolutely! My husband and I knew we would never be "rich" when we chose teaching as our occupation. And as a teacher, I still feel that teaching is a calling more than a job. But why then, are teachers now being attacked for the money we DO make? And it is happening, especially here in Ohio right now. Why am I suddenly a villian because I make a comfortable, middle-class wage and I can pay my bills?

I absolutely do not feel you should be ashamed for what you do or what money your clients have made. I am sure they worked hard to earn their money. I am not a "rob from the rich to give to the poor" kind of person. I just wish people would respect that when it comes to my job. Schools and teachers are not the evil of the day! So quit trying to fix something using my job when I was not involved in "breaking" it! I wasn't trying to villify corporate America. It is my limited understanding (economics is not my subject area) that a huge part in our current financial mess were the unsecured loans that were being given out. I had nothing to do with that. But anymore it seems that the solution being handed out is to get the unions out of school, set teachers back in their rights, and our economy will be fine. I guess I'm just confused.

And I never said teachers who have high earning spouses are not as worthy - absolutely not! I was just trying to distinguish between the households - those with two middle-class jobs and those with one middle-class and one upper-class jobs. You have to admit - there is a discrepancy in the earnings. I was just trying to be clear on which I was asking about. And no, I am not soliciting your services for ourselves - we won't ever be in that market, but that's okay! As long as I'm allowed to keep my current salary and the retirement benefits I have paid into over the years, we will be okay!


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

Jill said:


> Also, if it's a "Jill can't relate to teachers" thing... my sister is a teacher (one of the best in her county), my sister in law is a teacher, my brother in law is a teacher, some of my friends are teachers -- in addition to the clients I loosely numbered before.



You were the one who attacked teachers and teachers' unions. I was only responding to your statements.

Simply put, I was using your job as financial advisor to wealthy clients as a way to point out that teachers are NOT wealthy. I was trying to make the distinction between those whose primary source of family income is teaching and those for which teaching is not the primary source of income. I didn't say anything about you not relating. I was just wondering why the Republican party thinks by taking away from teachers we can fix our economic woes. We certainly don't have enough money in our pockets to balance the budgets!


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm not attacking teachers, but I am firmly opposed to ALL public sector unions and most especially, teacher unions. Public sector unions rob the tax payers. Teachers' Unions also rob the kids and the future.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

How in the world do teachers' unions rob the kids and the future?? From my viewpoint, without quality teachers kids have no future. You are going to have to show me something to back up that statement before I will even come close to seeing that as a valid viewpoint.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Teachers' unions protect the jobs of bad teachers and even lazy teachers. Good teachers do not need a union's protection. By keeping sorry teachers on the payrolls, teachers' unions rob the tax payers, the kids, and the future.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PkuTm-ON904

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XAAoepZFu-I


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

No, I mean some non-propaganda proof. You are a numbers person - surely if teachers' unions are the evil you claim there has got to be statistical proof.

"Good teachers do not need a union's protection." Really? Do you know that my husband and I LOVE the state of Tennessee. We have talked about moving there since before we were married. We visited there again this past year and we love it. Out of curiosity, I looked at the pay scale for the teachers in the county we were looking to move to. Do you know that I would have to teach 26 years and have my doctorate to make $52,000.00 a year?? And that is the top of the pay scale. Except for the occasional cost of living increase, that is the most I would ever have the opportunity to make if I were to teach down there. To me, that is horrendous. Why would anyone choose to seek a doctorate to make that small amount of money? There is no other profession where that level of education would be compensated that little. And it is my understanding that the teachers' unions do not have as strong a presence in Tennessee. I bet, just like in any other state, the good teachers vastly outnumber the poor teachers. And I am not saying there are no poor teachers - there are bad examples of every professsion out there! But I bet those good teachers would appreciate being appropriately compensated for the hard work they do.

I do not agree with everything that the unions stand for, but I appreciate the protection they give teachers. Again, the school system I work for is not unionized, but the system my husband works for is. Bad teachers are not so much protected by the unions. Yes, it takes a lot of documentation to fire a teacher - documentation that they have grossly neglected their duties and are not effective. But it can be done if the school system is willing to put the time into doing it. Too many times, they take the easy road and let them coast along. But at the same time, I am tremendously glad that those protections exist so that my husband cannot be fired becaue an influential member of the community is upset with the grade he gave their child and comes in demanding he be fired. When you take away the protection for teachers, who by and large do a thankless job facing increasing hostility from students, parents and society, then you are facing a slippery slope. You think the profession is dominated by "bad teachers and even lazy teachers"? Wait and see what kind of upstanding individuals you attract to the classroom when you take away everything we have worked for.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Proof? The current system is expensive and doesn't work well. Look into the *free market*. That works, WHEN we let it, and removes the "need" for unions of any kind in the current day USA.


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## maestoso (Aug 7, 2011)

Jill, knowing teacher is not enough. You need to be IN the schools working as a teacher to truly understand what a teacher's union is and what it provides. It may protect the dead-weight teachers, but it also protects the best teachers, because our government has proven over and over again that they don't value the good teachers anymore than they value the bad ones. Education is one of the main reasons I do not vote republican, because the past couple republican candidates have had, frankly, the most ridiculous stances on education I've heard. They were down right clueless about it. Yes, they want to reward good teachers and lose the dead weight ones. However, if you were a teacher, in a school who is suffering cuts, you would understand that what is happening is they want teachers to perform, and they do this by increasing class sizes and taking away resources. When a teacher can perform under these conditions, it is usually luck of the draw with the students they have, not skill.

Nobody in the business world can truly understand any of this until they live it, no matter how many teachers you know, have worked with, or are related to. Go talk to the teachers union at your local school district, shadow a teacher for a week, sit through several school budget meetings, study what it actually means to have students meeting state and national standards, and then you will have a SMALL understanding of what the reality of all this is.


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## maestoso (Aug 7, 2011)

"Good teachers do not need teachers unions..."

Jill, here you show the ignorance of a non-teacher. The videos you posted are for people like you who know little about the indsides of education. They were developed as propaganda to convince people to vote out teachers unions or to elect a leader who will eliminate them. They are bias and show one perspective.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Matt, apparently your "teacher's perspective" doesn't grant you the ability to have a "real world" -- consider the results AND the bottom line -- perspective on fixing what's broke.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

Jill -

Free Market - you mean where people are forced to their breaking point by laws mandated by those who have no understanding what it is like to be in a classroom? You mean the system Michelle Rhee proposed in Washington and those shining, rising test scores which ultimately had to be admitted were attained by cheating. Was that wrong? Absolutely! But when you back people into a corner by imposing unattainable standards on them, threaten them with losing their job, when they are already working as hard as they can and doing the best they can, what do you expect?

Or do you mean those amazing charter schools? The ones where a HUGE majority are performing significantly below the level of the public schools in their community? Or like those charter schools here in Ohio where even our Republican controlled government cannot deny any longer that the money that is supposed to be helping these poor students who have suffered at the hands of the public schools is in all actuality going to line the pockets of the CEO and corporations who run them?

Or the Free Market where you want to base my pay on the achievement of my students, measured in large part by one test that they take one day of the year? Which on paper sounds like a good way to do it, until you actually look at what I am doing on a daily basis. And you take into account all of the problems in society at large that are manifested daily, on a personal level, in every classroom, in every state in this country.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Wow, I think you need an education in the Free Market! Google or something. The free market where results matter. Good results are rewarded. Poor results are not. It really does work when it's allowed to do so.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

Actually, if you understood what I was referring to you, you would understand I was exactly addressing what those who think they know best feel the "Free Market" in education should look like. Good results are rewarded (merit pay), bad results are not (teachers are fired). The problem is, my results do not merely hinge on me doing my very best, they also hinge on me and teachers like me, convincing 25, 36 or over 100 *children* that learning is worthwhile, they need to work hard and they need to do their very best. I can work my hardest, try everything I know and then some, but at the end of the day, I cannot make them want to learn, want to succeed.

I like to compare it to if you had a doctor who had 25 patients who were overweight and suffering from a variety of problems such as high blood pressure, heart problems, weight-induced diabetes. You take the doctor aside and say, "Okay, your pay is going to be based on the success you have in getting these 25 patients to lose weight and get their health conditions under control." The doctor thinks about it and has all 25 patients come into his office each day. He weighs them every day to evaluate where they are at and where they need to go. He gives them charts and printouts on why they need to lose weight and all the benefits they will receive. He puts them each on an individual diet plan and feeds them a properly balanced meal for breakfast and lunch. He even calls in other specialists in exercise to come each day and work with them while they are there and tell them what they need to do at home to lose the weight.

Then, at the end of the day, his patients go home. There are a few of them who are dedicated to this program and dedicated to their success. They follow the doctor's instructions, they eat right, they exercise. They have family who support them and make sure they have what they need to succeed. Some of them go home and try to follow what the doctor says, but they have family who decide they are going to order pizza for dinner, or everyone should watch a movie on TV together instead of going out for a walk. Those patients try and follow the doctors orders, but without the other support, they eventually falter. Some of those patients have the drive to succeed on their own, but it is hard. And then there are those who are only in the program because their insurance has required it. They refuse to listen to what the doctor has to say or even try. They leave the office, head straight for McDonald's and order 4 Big Macs. They sit in front of the TV, computer or video game for the rest of the evening. They'll show up again tomorrow, because it is required, but they have absolutely no interest in doing the things that will help them.

NOW - let's hold the doctor responsible for the fact that only 18% of his patients successfully lost weight. What?? That's a failing number! Obviously he is a very poor physician who is not dedicated to his job! If only he had worked harder! Obviously, he should have gone to their homes each night to follow up. He should have made himself available to them at all hours of the day in order to motivate them to do what they needed to do! It is all his fault!

That is the problem with attaching pay to an arbitrary number when it is not YOUR performance being evaluated, but the performance of others - many of whom simply do not care.

I have to go to church now, but I'll tune back in later to see where this has gone!


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## Sonya (Aug 7, 2011)

I work for the public sector and I'm unionized. I can tell you my union does protect some who are lazy, weak, and don't perform their jobs..but they also protect the hard working ones, the majority who keep the flying public safe... they fight so we can be able to take otc meds (simple things like immodium or sudafed), I can not take while working. They fight so I can go have a sleep apnea test and not fear to lose my job over it, they fight for increased hours between shifts so we are not fatigued. They of course fight for pay and benefits as well.....however we can not strike, if we do it's instant firing. Being a conservative I do see problems with public unions but in my profession I also see some good with my union. I am not a teacher and can't pretend to know what their unions fight for because I haven't researched it. That being said, I do believe there are some crappy teachers out there being protected, but I'm sure there are some great ones that also are. I do know in my area, teacher pay is pretty low....in other areas, teachers are paid very well.


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## Sonya (Aug 7, 2011)

one thing I always didn't understand is the states who have lotteries/gambling....those proceeds are suppose to go to education....Michigan is heavy lottery (you can't go into a restaurant/bar and not find a keno machine)....I would love to really know where that $ is going...certainly can't be education as my school taxes are pretty high!


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## Carriage (Aug 7, 2011)

CharlesFamily said:


> Hmmmmm -Simply put, until the Republican party can actually stand someone up that I can get behind and really believe in, I refuse to vote for them! That's not saying that I am happy with the way things are going now on a National level, and there are a great many things I don't agree with. But I am happier with my Democratic President right now than I am with our Republican Governor here in the great state of Ohio. And, I'm sorry, but if Newt Gingrich and Mitt Romney/Sarah Palin are the best my party can come up with, then it is a sad state of affairs. (And I like Sarah Palin as a person - I enjoyed watching her reality show and I think she is great, I just don't want her running our country).
> 
> Barbara
> 
> ...


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Barbara, I think there are some possibilities to be very excited about and get behind this time around. I hope the GOP will select two of them for the ticket. There's a GOP debate this week, I think Thursday at 9pm ET on FOX. I'm looking forward to it and hope the debate format is better than the last one that was done on CNN.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Sonya, I hear and see your points. I wonder if this is ever the type of service that could be outsourced to the private sector? Should / Could? I don't know... I think in almost every case, the private sector does a better job and a more efficient job, but what you do is so highly specialized and vital.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 7, 2011)

Jill said:


> Barbara, I think there are some possibilities to be very excited about and get behind this time around. I hope the GOP will select two of them for the ticket. There's a GOP debate this week, I think Thursday at 9pm ET on FOX. I'm looking forward to it and hope the debate format is better than the last one that was done on CNN.


Thank you for letting me know! We cancelled our cable subscription though, so hopefully I will be able to watch it later on-line.

Barbara


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## Katiean (Aug 8, 2011)

OK! I have read most and scanned all of this post that started as a joke. Oh, and Jill you forgot one very important reason people vote Democrat;

MOMMY AND DADDY ARE REPUBLICANS AND IT IS MY WAY OF REBELLING AGAINST THEM.

I don't really care what party someone is. You want to poke fun at Republicans, Democrats, Libritrian, Tea Party or any of the other smaller less known parties? Poke away! It isn't like anyone is really hurt by a joke. However, you could put ANY Past Republican President in a little bo peep dress and everyone would laugh. But, you put Obama in a witch docter costume (all photo shopped) and Democrats get mad. WHY???It is a joke and ment to be funny. I really do not understand all of the anger in this thread.







Here is my bit of gas to throw on the fire.


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## Jill (Aug 8, 2011)

Not enough people can laugh, especially at themselves.


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## TangoMango (Aug 8, 2011)




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## andi (Aug 8, 2011)

Ok, Explain why the O.p. was considered a joke and it was not offensive to say someones head is so firmly planted up their butt; it's unlikely that they'll ever have another point of view. But Maestro's reply, doing exactly as told, posting the replublican version, and it's suddenly not funny and made into a point by point debate. Why couldnt you just sit back and laugh at yourself as the Democrats are expected to do . . .


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 8, 2011)

Wow Jill... I have to admire your commitment. Not much else, unfortunately... sorry.


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Wow Jill... I have to admire your commitment. Not much else, unfortunately... sorry.


No need to be sorry. The source is considered.

However, what a shame you aren't able to contribute anything to a political discussion other than an attempt at a personal insult. Maybe you just don't feel yourself to be informed enough to talk about the issues?



andi said:


> Ok, Explain why the O.p. was considered a joke and it was not offensive to say someones head is so firmly planted up their butt; it's unlikely that they'll ever have another point of view. But Maestro's reply, doing exactly as told, posting the replublican version, and it's suddenly not funny and made into a point by point debate. Why couldnt you just sit back and laugh at yourself as the Democrats are expected to do . . .


AND, Andi-James... wow. I didn't know that being able to address each item of Matt Down's response was going to be considered a bad thing, and some of my responses were a bit funny



I did offer an actually a real response, but since that wasn't what you wished for, here's a note of less value -- maybe you just have a hard time seeing in light of the issue you mentioned involving the location of your head. Feel free to write that off, as I did when you called me a racist, bigot and hypocrite.

AT The risk of bringing this around to politics again::



maestoso said:


> Interestingly enough, the same ridiculous junk can be found mocking republicans.......... for your reading pleasure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


1) Because Jesus said "Thou shall give tax cuts to the obscenely wealthy."

See 6, 7, 8, 9, 10 and 11 below.

2) If you believe the government should stay out of your life! Unless of course, it's at the doctors, at the church, in the bedroom, involves guns, or a woman's body.

Republicans advocate for more government control at the doctors' offices? In church? With Guns? ... pretty much just the oposite.

3) Because despite the only reference to God in any government documents from the Founding Era is the word "Creator" in the Declaration of Independence, which isn't actually a governing document, we are a Christian Nation founded on Christian principles!

We are in large a Christian nation, and our Nation doesn't benefit when faith is ridiculed.

4) Because even though gay marriage wouldn't affect my marriage, it's still wrong! (Look what Jesus said about it! Oh wait...).

I personally support equal marriage rights for all committed couples and hope the GOP will update some views in that department -- however, it is personally very far down on my list of concerns when we have things like National Security and the economy on which to focus.

5) Because women don't NEED rights, dangit!

Sarah Palin, Michelle Bachmann, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Laura Ingraham... just a small sample of some pretty high profile and powerful republican women.

6) Because we need to help those who were born able to help themselves!

Sorry I wasn't born needing a handout and have been paying my own way since I was 16. I'm just so ashamed.

7) Because rich people need tax breaks more than poor people need food!

Anyone getting a paycheck from someone on welfare?

8) Because we need to invade countries and outspend the rest of the world combined on defense instead of fixing our schools!

Get the unions out of schools and be rid of the dead weight teachers they shelter and watch that system stop bleeding students and money.

9) Because lower taxes magically increases jobs and increases revenue!*

So when the governement raises your boss' taxes, and you lose your job -- how does that make you better off? (oh, you probably have a union school job...)

10) Because lower spending magically increases jobs and increases revenue!*

Check the math -- lower spending means less revenue (tax dollars) spent and more left over / less of a deficit. Really. Get out your calculator and see if it's not true!

11) Regulations are for European hippies! God will save the environment! Jesus Jesus Jesus, God, the Bible, guns, Amen.

The USA shouldn't emulate a European welfare state. Notice what's been going on over there?

12) Because science is a global conspiracy. We don't need to ejumacate our kids about no evolution or no global climate change! God will save the environment! Jesus Jesus Jesus, God, the Bible, guns, Amen.

Did you hear about the faked reports and dishonest science / descredited scientists behind the Global Warming and Green Movement. Oh, snap... They didn't cover that on NPR and MSNBC.

*Giving more guns to everyone would also have the same effect.

So, is this the part where I get to show off my concealed weapons permit?!?!

See, don't you get it now? We all have to vote Republican in 2012 to save 'Merica!

God Bless The USA.


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## tagalong (Aug 9, 2011)

> However, what a shame you aren't able to contribute anything to a political discussion other than an attempt at a personal insult. Maybe you just don't feel yourself to be informed enough to talk about the issues?


Umm.... that wasn't much of a "personal insult" as these threads go - not at all. Not even worth a second glance.

Even when one is VERY informed about the issues and discusses them calmly, one often gets a personal insult directed their way... _^ that is a whole lot of pot-kettle-blacking going on there ^_ ....


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

Jill my opinion is ridiculously clear. I DON'T think it is a bad thing that people respond seriously to attacks disguised as jokes that insult them. I asked why was it a problem that the democrats did when it is ok for you to?

And Jill, I see no were on this thread that mentions anything about racism or would even have anything to do with someones views on it. Please don't try to make this personal. I would hate too see some of these wonderful posts removed, so many have mentioned to me how much they enjoy coming on the forum and learning about all our views.


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

Oh, please, andi-James. If it wasn't this thread, look at the Debt Ceiling one. I'm not mistaken about what you so recently called me _and please_, do contribute some more of your political perspective and wit here when you find the time.

Whether or not you personally like this thread or found the OP funny doesn't matter to me. Lots of people did and I don't know many other threads that have received this many FaceBook likes, comments and LB traffic.. Plus, I'm real fond of the client that shared "The List" with me in the first place. So, *shrug*.

And, Tag, I hope the irony and hypocrisy doesn't make you die of either laughter or boredom. I was born with an instict to stick up for myself when I should and to fight fire with fire.


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

At the risk of getting into any political convo.

This entire thread is a wonderful example of why getting the most views, the most likes, creating traffic, or the highest ratings shouldn't be the end all justification of something we should all be ashamed of, not always rewarded like some think would solve all our problems.

We use to all watch public hangings cheering and enjoying it, watch prisoners be torn apart by lions in the arena, does the fact that the majority enjoyed watching make them right?

And Jill weather or not I found this funny or should have, DID matter to you, until it was made clear you were being hypocritical, do as I say not as I do . . . It's fine to change your mind and see the other persons side, instead of just running away from your opinion and acting like it was never yours.


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

andi-James, you really should stop assigning words, assumed actions, opinions and feelings to me. Trust me, I'm more in touch with me than you are. I have no doubt that's how we both like it


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

Before I made exact quotes, I was deemed weird and odd by you and would not respond to these quotes.

What thoughts or words am I assigning you that are not yours?

You said weather or not I like this thread or find it funny you don't care cause it has good ratings.

I KNOW you didn't actually use the word ratings, is it these type of differences in how I repeat what you say that have you so bothered?


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 9, 2011)

Okay Jill, perhaps this quote would make it slightly less of an insult, and slightly less deserving of a snide, insulting response... "I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it." (Voltaire) He also said Common sense is not so common. Also fitting.

Just because I don't want to get into a one-upsmanship, name calling, refusing to consider other people's points of view, argument doesn't mean I don't have an opinion


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## Katiean (Aug 9, 2011)

andi said:


> At the risk of getting into any political convo.
> 
> We use to all watch public hangings cheering and enjoying it, watch prisoners be torn apart by lions in the arena, does the fact that the majority enjoyed watching make them right?


I do not know about you, but, I never cheered at any public hanging. Nor have I ever watched someone be torn apart by a lion. Though it is most likely another form of late term abortion. I do not even like the show "WIPE OUT" because I know people have to be getting hurt for a chance at the all mighty dollar. If the list of reasons to vote Republican had not been repetitive and not just an attack on Christians, maybe it would have been funny too. I just do not understand why people need to get their panties in a bunch because they didn't take the time to actually make a joke out of being republican. It is just like "BLOND" jokes. I am blond and when someone starts telling Blond Jokes I kick in with a few of my own. What is the big deal? If you want I will work on a Republican list so no one feels singled out.


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

I agree with you katieann, I was using the word we refering to us as a people, humans throughout time. Saying that because something gets good ratings or because people enjoy watching it as a form of justifying the act is never appropriate, in all actuality it is usually quite the opposite. Just look at popular television recently, what would have been and most likely should have been a guilty pleasure has broken into the mainstream, Jersey Shore, All the housewives shows, jerry springer. It's fine to be entertained by these shows, as long as you don't confuse them with reality and start rationalizing the behavior exhibited in them just because they are well watched. This list/joke, is the same thing. What scares me is these "jokes" are not jokes to most people including those who post them. On other topics people have revealed that they actually believe these statements and ones just as insulting, but when you call them out on them, they are just a joke again.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 9, 2011)

Katiean said:


> I do not know about you, but, I never cheered at any public hanging. Nor have I ever watched someone be torn apart by a lion. Though it is most likely another form of late term abortion. I do not even like the show "WIPE OUT" because I know people have to be getting hurt for a chance at the all mighty dollar. If the list of reasons to vote Republican had not been repetitive and not just an attack on Christians, maybe it would have been funny too. I just do not understand why people need to get their panties in a bunch because they didn't take the time to actually make a joke out of being republican. It is just like "BLOND" jokes. I am blond and when someone starts telling Blond Jokes I kick in with a few of my own. What is the big deal? If you want I will work on a Republican list so no one feels singled out.



For the record, I was never upset by the OP (although I thought it was stupid) and I wasn't upset by the Republican list (it was stupid, too). And I guess both of those lists would have applied to me because I DID vote Democrat in 2008 AND I am a registered Republican!



What I took offense to was the rebuttal that Jill made that attacked public school teachers and unions. Stupid e-mail jokes don't bother me - unsubstantiated opinions repeated as facts do!

Barbara


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

andi said:


> Before I made exact quotes, I was deemed weird and odd by you and would not respond to these quotes.
> 
> What thoughts or words am I assigning you that are not yours?
> 
> ...


You assigned racist and bigot very recently, andi-James, tried to re-word and re-define my own opinions and motivations throughout this (much more recent than this current) thread... and of course we both know the charming things you said to me in some previously deleted posts. I'm sure you remember this that stands: http://www.miniature...howtopic=125005

Did you want to do your own list of twelve, since you didn't like mine? Or just leave Matt Down's? I guess I don't know what you're aiming for here other than to make it clear that you do not think the list I posted is funny.



Katiean said:


> I do not know about you, but, I never cheered at any public hanging. Nor have I ever watched someone be torn apart by a lion. Though it is most likely another form of late term abortion. I do not even like the show "WIPE OUT" because I know people have to be getting hurt for a chance at the all mighty dollar. If the list of reasons to vote Republican had not been repetitive and not just an attack on Christians, maybe it would have been funny too. I just do not understand why people need to get their panties in a bunch because they didn't take the time to actually make a joke out of being republican. It is just like "BLOND" jokes. I am blond and when someone starts telling Blond Jokes I kick in with a few of my own. What is the big deal? If you want I will work on a Republican list so no one feels singled out.


Here-here


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

CharlesFamily said:


> For the record, I was never upset by the OP (although I thought it was stupid) and I wasn't upset by the Republican list (it was stupid, too). And I guess both of those lists would have applied to me because I DID vote Democrat in 2008 AND I am a registered Republican!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks and I understand you didn't like my opinion of what teachers' unions do / don't do. I still believe what I've said about public employee unions, however, I would imagine you yourself are a good and dedicated teacher.


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

And, since this is really so far off topic, I'd like to at least share again The List:

*When your friends cannot explain why they voted for Democrats, give them this list. They can then pick their reasons from this "TOP 12"...*

1. I voted Democrat because I believe oil companies' profits of 4% on a gallon of gas are obscene, but the government taxing the same gallon of gas at 15% isn't.

2. I voted Democrat because I believe the government will do a better job of spending the money I earn than I would.

3. I voted Democrat because Freedom of Speech is fine as long as nobody is offended by it.

4. I voted Democrat because I'm way too irresponsible to own a gun, and I know that my local police are all I need to protect me from murderers and thieves.

5. I voted Democrat because I believe that people who can't tell us if it will rain on Friday can tell us that the polar ice caps will melt away in ten years if I don't start driving a Prius.

6. I voted Democrat because I'm not concerned about millions of babies being aborted so long as we keep all death row inmates alive.

7. I voted Democrat because I think illegal aliens have a right to free health care, education, and Social Security benefits.

8. I voted Democrat because I believe that business should not be allowed to make profits for themselves. They need to break even and give the rest away to the government for redistribution as the Democrats see fit.

9. I voted Democrat because I believe liberal judges need to rewrite the Constitution every few days to suit some fringe kooks who would never get their agendas past the voters.

10. I voted Democrat because I think that it's better to pay billions to people who hate us for their oil, but not drill our own because it might upset some endangered beetle or gopher.

11. I voted Democrat because while we live in the greatest, most wonderful country in the world, I was promised "HOPE AND CHANGE".

12. I voted Democrat because my head is so firmly planted up my butt; it's unlikely that I'll ever have another point of view.


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## cretahillsgal (Aug 9, 2011)

Love this! This is the best analogy I have heard in a while about how the school system now "rewards" and "punishes" the teachers and schools. Im not a teacher, but alot of my family is. Gonna have to share this with them.







CharlesFamily said:


> Actually, if you understood what I was referring to you, you would understand I was exactly addressing what those who think they know best feel the "Free Market" in education should look like. Good results are rewarded (merit pay), bad results are not (teachers are fired). The problem is, my results do not merely hinge on me doing my very best, they also hinge on me and teachers like me, convincing 25, 36 or over 100 *children* that learning is worthwhile, they need to work hard and they need to do their very best. I can work my hardest, try everything I know and then some, but at the end of the day, I cannot make them want to learn, want to succeed.
> 
> I like to compare it to if you had a doctor who had 25 patients who were overweight and suffering from a variety of problems such as high blood pressure, heart problems, weight-induced diabetes. You take the doctor aside and say, "Okay, your pay is going to be based on the success you have in getting these 25 patients to lose weight and get their health conditions under control." The doctor thinks about it and has all 25 patients come into his office each day. He weighs them every day to evaluate where they are at and where they need to go. He gives them charts and printouts on why they need to lose weight and all the benefits they will receive. He puts them each on an individual diet plan and feeds them a properly balanced meal for breakfast and lunch. He even calls in other specialists in exercise to come each day and work with them while they are there and tell them what they need to do at home to lose the weight.
> 
> ...


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

Jill I have NEVER assigned you any view points that you have not stated yourself. Just post a quote where I did that, were I said you meant something that you did not. Everysingle time I have ASKED you to clairify and you refuse to every single time.

The irony of the this entire thing, after re reading your list, is that is exactly what you did that started this entire thing. You posted a list that is full of assumptions of democrats view points, twisting their opinions, and assigning your own views on them to make them look uninformaed and belittle their desicions. Joke or not, you started this for doing the exact thing you claim I did but cant show one example of me doing.


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

James "whatever". I know what you have so recently said and done -- you do, too. Look at the things you said on the Debt Ceiling thread if you have forgotten already. And again, you know the posts of yours that were deleted on another thread and all that you said there.

As I was prepping for a client appointment that is to take place momentarily, I thought how happy I am that I'm not saying anything on LB that could effect my livelihood or professional reputation. I have no reason to suspect any measurable number of my clients are or ever will be miniature horse enthusiasts... even if they were flaming left wing liberals.

EDIT to add your quote, andi-James, the names and the presumption of my own motives:



andi said:


> ... Either you are simply racist, or just were trying to twist the truth to make liberals appear like terrorist sympathizers. I personally think it is the second, I assumed calling you a bigot would motivate you to accept the lesser evil. ...


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 9, 2011)

cretahillsgal said:


> Love this! This is the best analogy I have heard in a while about how the school system now "rewards" and "punishes" the teachers and schools. Im not a teacher, but alot of my family is. Gonna have to share this with them.



Thanks, Julie! I'm glad you enjoyed it, please share it with your family. Sometimes it helps to create an analogy to something unrelated to education to help people understand some of the difficulties teachers face!

Barbara


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## tagalong (Aug 9, 2011)

> [And, Tag, I hope the irony and hypocrisy doesn't make you die of either laughter or boredom. I was born with an instict to stick up for myself when I should and to fight fire with fire.


No one has ever suggested that you shouldn't and yet when someone disagrees with you or quietly points out even the teeniest bit of hypocrisy on your part (and we all are guilty of that at times), you always come back with something like *that ^* - even when no one was on the "attack". _What - you think no one else has that "instinct"?? _



We all do - and yet you seem to see it as a fault in others.

JMO - but a bit less hypocrisy (AKA pot-kettle-blacking) would serve you well. And that is not an "attack" or an "insult" - just a quiet suggestion.

And note that I was not bothered in any way by the OP (and said so much earlier in this thread) - it was just another of the mildly amusing political emails that goes around...


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

I can't say I am surprised by your reply to my request for actual quotes. I didnt think that would be an easy task.

I can't agree more about it being good that your clients most likely aren't reading what you are posting. You should be very relieved Jill. I on the other hand am so glad that some of my prospective pool of clients have read what I have to say and know my opinions on right and wrong. If I had any doubt, it was cleared by all the LB members and readers who came up and personally thanked me this last weekend at the Central Championships.

I will assume the best of you Jill and conclude that Flaming was being used in reference to those who spark fights on forums, and not take it as homophobic gay slander that is often used to classify gay liberals, and that your choice of words was just a coincidence . . .


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

I now see you have edited you reply Jill, I thought it was tough to argue with some one who refuses to stand behind what they say, but to then have them add to or change what they orgininally said, near impossible.


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

Its been recomended I print your posts before you change them. I wonder if there are any government funded Ink Cartridge Replacement programs I can qualify for, this might get costly . . .


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## 2minis4us (Aug 9, 2011)




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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

James, the editing of my post was done by me before I saw you'd replied. I'd say it was also done before you replied, but to be honest, I hadn't hit reload so do not know which came first. My message and meaning didn't change, it only was added to to include a quote from you, which was exceptionally easy to locate. But, by all means. Print my posts. Frame them. Use them to line a bird cage. Why on earth would I care?

As a professional miniature horse trainer, you have a limited pool of potential clients and there are many well known professional trainers who consistently earn top honors. All competing for the same pool of people. Couldn't care less how you take this insight but know that many people have asked me what's wrong with you since this started. If someone asked me a couple of weeks ago what I thought of you, I would have had nothing to say that was not nice. Now that you have been a complete jerk to me on a personal level, of course my opinion has changed. My clients, and potential clients, are not concerned about a mini horse message board. Yours? *shrug*


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

Jill you sure have said alot of awful things followed with, dont care how you take this. Maybe a lack of Empathy really is what is missing here.

You can take whatever stand you would like to against me Jill. I got passionate on these threads because I felt people were being victimized and riduculed for what they beleive in. You got offended because I didnt take it all as a joke and was being oversensitive. At the end of the day Jill, I do not mind losing clients who base their trainer selection on the fact that I am just too sensitive or easily offended. YOU have taken this to a much newer darker place threatening my Career . . .


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

andi said:


> ...At the end of the day Jill, I do not mind losing clients who base their trainer selection on the fact that I am just too sensitive or easily offended. YOU have taken this to a much newer darker place threatening my Career . . .



Threatened your career? Hardly. Pointed out who our audience is? Yes...


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## 2minis4us (Aug 9, 2011)

> As a professional miniature horse trainer, you have a limited pool of potential clients and there are many well known professional trainers who consistently earn top honors. All competing for the same pool of people. Couldn't care less how you take this insight but know that many people have asked me what's wrong with you since this started. If someone asked me a couple of weeks ago what I thought of you, I would have had nothing to say that was not nice. Now that you have been a complete jerk to me on a personal level, of course my opinion has changed. My clients, and potential clients, are not concerned about a mini horse message board. Yours? *shrug*


Jill, that was low and uncalled for !!!!!!!!!!


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## kaykay (Aug 9, 2011)

James I have a pretty strong feeling that you do not need to worry about these posts affecting your career





To take this stuff to this level of saying someones career could be ruined for standing up for what he believes in? This thread has now hit an all time low.

I seriously didn't think it could sink lower but it did.

As for the views etc. If you look at the main forum there are many threads with much higher views and more importantly replies. Although this thread has a ton of views, the replies are not many. Mostly it is the same people viewing it and refreshing it. As for the "likes" who knows what they mean. Could be they "like" what Jill said or they like what James said. Could be they just "like" drama. LOL.

Its like looking at a car wreck when you know you shouldn't.

It is sad that political threads always lead to name calling etc. Anyone who disagrees or offers other thoughts other than the original poster is said to be "uniformed" or "doesnt care" etc etc. That is so much easier than having to actually think about what is being said and have a thought provoking post.

Hubby and I were just discussing that we have never in all our years seen such a divide. It's everywhere for sure not just these forum threads. And it will be our downfall. This need to be right at all costs on all sides will be our undoing.


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## andi (Aug 9, 2011)

Jill you said that I have a limited pool of clients. The next sentence was that many horse people, I make the assumption horse people because they are reading this forum, have asked you for your opinion on me, and you have let me know that now it will not be positive and then to make your meaning even more clear, say that my clients WILL care about what is said on here.

HOW ELSE AM I GOING TO TAKE THAT!

This game of you going 9O% of the way there and me being the bad guy for assuming the other 1O%, crud, 1% is rediculous.


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## Jill (Aug 9, 2011)

andi-James:

1. I'm pointing out miniature horse people are pretty much the only people who read this message board. It's pretty darn popular, FYI. What I mean is I don't think YOU are making a very good impression of yourself and it's your business audience -- not mine.

2. You mentioned that people coming up to you at a show to remark favorably about your posts to me. I follow up by letting you know that people are also talking to me about this "situation" and asking me what's wrong with you.

Neither of these two things are a threat. These are just a couple of facts.

I'm not interested in any more personal back and forth between us. I already know what you've told me you think of me. I am real firm about what I now think of you. This thread wasn't started to single out anyone, but you chose to do so and either here or on one of the others, "warned" me that you will dog each of the political threads in this way. Go on. I will continue to express my opinions every place I choose -- but I really hope I won't let myself waste any more time trying to address or defend your name calling and word twisting.


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## tagalong (Aug 9, 2011)

> Hubby and I were just discussing that we have never in all our years seen such a divide. It's everywhere for sure not just these forum threads. And it will be our downfall. This need to be right at all costs on all sides will be our undoing.


*kaykay* - I was asked by relatives in Canada what the difference was between political affairs here in the US and there. Sadly, the answer was easy and obvious... _anger, hostility and venom._ People spar and argue about issues in Canada - French vs. English, East vs. West - but it _never_ gets to the level of anger I see here - not just on this forum but _everywhere._ The radio. The street corner. Having been through 2 Presidential elections here, I have been amazed at the vitriol that is unleashed. The hypocrisy all around. The name-calling. The viral emails that went around during the 2008 campaign were at times very disturbing - and what made that worse was that people rushed to embrace them as The Truth. No matter how bizarre and impossible the alleged conspiracy or incident was. The big picture is rarely examined - instead there seems to be be a kind of partisan, fingerpointing tunnel vision.

Too many assume that everything is black and white (or Red and Blue if you prefer), Right or Left when things are mostly grey and in the center unless one is an extremist at either end. And very few of us reach those extremes.

Passion is laudable. But when it escalates to venom, it sours.

There needs to be more than two "sides". More than two or three "parties". How on earth can a country of 312 million people be narrowed down into such limited points of view? IMO it can't be - hence the anger.

*kaykay* - threads have sunk _much, much_ lower than this.



This one is mild compared to what went down in 2008 - that resulted in such threads being banned for awhile...





BTW, *Jill & James* - it is a very weak argument to say things like... (only quoting* Jill *as she mentioned both versions at once)



> You mentioned that people coming up to you at a show to remark favorably about your posts to me. I follow up by letting you know that people are also talking to me about this "situation" and asking me what's wrong with you.


...from both "sides" of a discussion... why on earth resort to comments like that? That just comes across as a neener neener kind of thing. State your own opinion and concerns without bringing in alleged phantom "support" as a way to attempt to validate what you are saying and continuing to sneer at the other person.





You sound like two kids during recess at school - _everyone told me that they like me and you suck!!! So there!! Oh yeah, well everyone told me that they really like me and think that you are a big old meanie... and you suck even more!!! _






edited for clarity


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## andi (Aug 10, 2011)

I can't argue that tag, immature at best, and I had just said to someone that was one thing I would not be temted into doing, anyways won't ruin the apology with excuses . . .


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## kaykay (Aug 10, 2011)

> kaykay - threads have sunk much, much lower than this.
> 
> 
> 
> This one is mild compared to what went down in 2008 - that resulted in such threads being banned for awhile...


Oh I agree and remember! But I was just talking about this thread. But it is easy to see that all of these political threads are headed in the exact same direction as 2008



> There needs to be more than two "sides". More than two or three "parties". How on earth can a country of 312 million people be narrowed down into such limited points of view? IMO it can't be - hence the anger.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 10, 2011)

kaykay said:


> To take this stuff to this level of saying someones career could be ruined for standing up for what he believes in? This thread has now hit an all time low.
> 
> I seriously didn't think it could sink lower but it did.


It's attacks like this that are stopping the majority of folks from wanting to join in these threads.

James your apology says a lot about your character


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## Jill (Aug 10, 2011)

Are those of you so ready to throw rocks and cheer for more (though you claim otherwise) under the impression that the things said here don't have the potential to harm reputations within our tight and small community of miniature horse enthusiasts? And does pointing out what is a reality mean someone has made a threat?



Oh man, I'm_ soooo _happy my professional success does not revolve around this little, tiny bit of the real world


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## tagalong (Aug 10, 2011)

> Are those of you so ready to throw rocks and cheer for more (though you claim otherwise)...


*Jill* - what does that even mean? The only rock throwing came from you and* James.*








> under the impression that the things said here don't have the potential to harm reputations within our tight and small community of miniature horse enthusiasts?


The horse world is never small - no matter what the breed or discipline, ripples can go out in all directions. This forum gets very little traffic compared to major horse forums like COTH etc. - but many people go from one forum to another.

But what you say on this forum -_ or anywhere on the internet _- and how you conduct yourself can affect how others feel about you and view you - no matter what your business. Google can pull up things you have said from anywhere and everywhere. Anything you say on the internet is there forever in some way. Even if you edit or delete it, there is a cache of it somewhere. Every bit of venom. Every sneer. Every insult.

Does that have the potential to affect you in Real Life? I know that decisions have been made based on how people have seen others conduct themselves on such forums - and not just horse forums. One trainer on another large horse message board has alienated so many with the way he has carried on - usually in a condescending, sneering manner - that his business has been affected. And not just his horse business.


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## Jill (Aug 10, 2011)

We've got a chorus of people throwing rocks yet saying they don't like the thread.

Can LB discussions hurt my career as a money manager ? ... Nope.


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## cretahillsgal (Aug 10, 2011)

kaykay said:


> Hubby and I were just discussing that we have never in all our years seen such a divide. It's everywhere for sure not just these forum threads. And it will be our downfall. This need to be right at all costs on all sides will be our undoing.


I completely agree. Both sides need to learn to work together and each give a little.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 10, 2011)

I've heard that before... just before reputations were ruined. You may be unpleasantly surprised when you least expect it.


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## Katiean (Aug 10, 2011)

You guys do need to remember the Dixie Chicks. One band member said the wrong thing at the wrong time about the President and their careers went down the toilet so fast they didn't know what hit them. It wasn't even the whole band that said it. Yes Jobs can and are affected by what we say and write.


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## Jill (Aug 10, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> I've heard that before... just before reputations were ruined. You may be unpleasantly surprised when you least expect it.


16 years owning my corporation and meeting a payroll. An attractive number of "," in the money I manage for others. Clients who consistently refer new clients. An overwhelmingly republican clientel.... While some miniature horse people may not want to buy (or even sell) to me because I am so passionately republican, I am without fear of any professional ramifications of speaking my mind on LB. NOT like I've said anything recently that I haven't said for many years... And I swear, I will not ever panhandle members here to help pay for any of my own horses' needs.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 10, 2011)

Jill said:


> 16 years owning my corporation and meeting a payroll. An attractive number of "," in the money I manage for others. Clients who consistently refer new clients. An overwhelmingly republican clientel.... While some miniature horse people may not want to buy (or even sell) to me because I am so passionately republican, I am without fear of any professional ramifications of speaking my mind on LB. NOT like I've said anything recently that I haven't said for many years... And I swear, I will not ever panhandle members here to help pay for any of my own horses' needs.



First off...you work for your Dad so get off your bandwagon

Secondly, there's nothing wrong with being overwhelmingly anything but it crosses the line when it sinks into the attacks and hypocracy that you seem to focus on. There are a lot of us who are passionate about all kind of subjects but most people don't have the need to attack - we're happy having discussions and an exchange of ideas.



Jill said:


> We've got a chorus of people throwing rocks yet saying they don't like the thread.
> 
> Can LB discussions hurt my career as a money manager ? ... Nope.


I'm not sure what you mean by this Jill. Reads to me like you think it's okay to come here are with venom and jeers towards anyone with a different opinion than yours because none of your clients come here - and that business anonymity makes it okay to behave the way you do!! I'm sorry that you feel that way because there's a lot of really nice folks here who aren't comfortable joining in because of the tone these threads end up taking.



Jill said:


> Are those of you so ready to throw rocks and cheer for more (though you claim otherwise) under the impression that the things said here don't have the potential to harm reputations within our tight and small community of miniature horse enthusiasts? And does pointing out what is a reality mean someone has made a threat?
> 
> 
> 
> Oh man, I'm_ soooo _happy my professional success does not revolve around this little, tiny bit of the real world



I don't think anyone has their head that far under the sand Jill. Yes, the behavior seen on these and other similar threads has tarnished reputations.





*Oh man, I'm** soooo **happy my professional success does not revolve around this little, tiny bit of the real world* I'm sure you are happy about that. I would be too if I were you because if I had a "professional" handling my finances who behaved the way you behave I'd be moving my account elsewhere pretty fast.

There's no one here who agrees with everything everyone else says but most people have the maturity and empathy towards others to just not respond or to respond in a counter but polite manner without the jeering, nasty personal attacks.


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## tagalong (Aug 10, 2011)

> One band member said the wrong thing at the wrong time about the President and their careers went down the toilet so fast they didn't know what hit them.


Dixie Chicks' career did not tank - they came back from that Foot In Mouth issue very well and went on to more success. One could just say they were passionate about what they believed in. Which is what is often said in these threads and deemed appropriate - so then it should apply to them as well...







> And I swear, I will not ever panhandle members here to help pay for any of my own horses' needs.


What does that have to do with this thread??


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## kaykay (Aug 10, 2011)

> 16 years owning my corporation and meeting a payroll. An attractive number of "," in the money I manage for others.


Jill its no secret that "your" company was started by your dad. Nothing wrong with that. I also grew up in a family business and worked there many years. And was thankful to be so blessed. Especially when I saw friends and neighbors struggling so hard (recession of the 80's)

Have you ever wondered what would have happened if you had instead been born to a low income single mother? After all we dont get to pick out parents. You and I were very lucky indeed.



> And I swear, I will not ever panhandle members here to help pay for any of my own horses' needs.


Little doubt as to who that is directed at, but I decline to play.

This is how you seem to operate. Make implications, veiled threats, snide remarks, insults and then act innocent.

Oh well same stuff different year, day........

I have to go now. I have some *very important horses* that need immediate attention aka stall cleaning. Id rather shovel real manure than post again in this manure riddled thread.

Oh wait Ill add a cute emoticon because that makes it okay


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## Jill (Aug 10, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> First off...you work for your Dad so get off your bandwagon


Haha!!! Want to check my corporation's records? I've been the president (and the boss) for many years now. It's my practice



AND, it's thriving.



kaykay said:


> Jill its no secret that "your" company was started by your dad. Nothing wrong with that.


Darn skippy, Kay. You may think my long time career is no secret. I remember you as a part time tax preparer, a one time real estate agent and self published author... is that REALLY where you want to go with me?


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## heartkranch (Aug 10, 2011)

As facebook teenagers would go.. SMH


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## tagalong (Aug 10, 2011)

And yet another thread that actually had some good discussions going deteriorates into personal attacks and sneering...


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 10, 2011)

I've been a breeding manager, a gas pumper, unemployed, professional student, and now nurse. Guess I'm just a looser  Not everyone is so successful.

ETA: I'm also the most highly educated person in my family with two BS's and a MS. Didn't help me at all  Can't create jobs out of nothing!


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## tagalong (Aug 10, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> I've been a breeding manager, a gas pumper, unemployed, professional student, and now nurse. Guess I'm just a looser  Not everyone is so successful.


Good tangent, *Nathan* - I have been a graphic artist, illustrator, riding instructor, farm manager, show groom ... nothing that would entitle me to multiple commas... not at all!





Medical bills affect what commas I have - but no matter. Life always has peaks and valleys and things always improve in time!





And the vet has FINALLY arrived - time to go U/S some mares!!


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## 2minis4us (Aug 10, 2011)




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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 10, 2011)

tagalong said:


> Good tangent, *Nathan* - I have been a graphic artist, illustrator, riding instructor, farm manager, show groom... nothing that would entitle me to multiple commas... not at all!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I didn't even make ONE comma last year! Economy stinks.



Hopefully better this year!


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## ~Lisa~ (Aug 10, 2011)

I have nothing political to add here. I read this whole thing - due to a serious knee injury I can not fill my time with 3 hours at the gym so figured I would pass some time catching up on some of these threads..all I can say is this thread is NOT good for a diet I have this urge to eat chocolate now



or maybe better yet some popcorn.. wait chocolate drizzled popcorn yes that would be perfect... Ok carry on sorry for this non commerical interruption


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## minimomNC (Aug 10, 2011)

Lisa, I was informed that today was National S'mores day, so how about that instead. Hope your feel better soon.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 10, 2011)

Oh I had lime and coconut frozen yogurt last night loaded with mochi...YUM YUM YUM


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## miniwhinny (Aug 10, 2011)

CharlesFamily said:


> Actually, if you understood what I was referring to you, you would understand I was exactly addressing what those who think they know best feel the "Free Market" in education should look like. Good results are rewarded (merit pay), bad results are not (teachers are fired). The problem is, my results do not merely hinge on me doing my very best, they also hinge on me and teachers like me, convincing 25, 36 or over 100 *children* that learning is worthwhile, they need to work hard and they need to do their very best. I can work my hardest, try everything I know and then some, but at the end of the day, I cannot make them want to learn, want to succeed.






:yeah





THIS is so common sense and this is what drives me batty about those preaching merit pay/free market education for teachers! I run a business and if I have an employee who isn't doing their job I'll fire them without blinking an eye. You can't do that in a school! You can't take the kids in the class who don't want to be there, don't want to learn, want to disrupt etc and kick them out. It's not going to happen. Like you said...it doesn't matter how good you are at your job - your hands are tied by the kids not wanting to learn. The free market/merit pay argument is so backwards because it can't work. What if I had an employee who was preventing me from doing my job and I couldn't do anything about it - should my pay suffer because of that? No way! Not if there was nothing that I could do about it. Free market/merit pay would only work in the public school system when teachers can fire everyone in their class not wanting to be there and learn and we all know that's not going to happen because of the millions of kids who'd have no education. Now I want to say - I'm not a teacher, don't have a relative who is a teacher, don't even have close friends (other than good relationships with my kids teachers) who are teachers, I just know what's fair and what's not. And excuse me but if we don't have an educated tomorrow then we, as a nation, have NOTHING.

And while we're bashing the public employees - which seems to be a favorite of the far right wingers - on 9/11...just WHO was running IN while everyone else was running out?


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## Minimor (Aug 10, 2011)

I have just one thing to say after reading through the last few pages of this thread...if you don't have many commas, don't feel too bad, because apparently the number of commas one has means absolutely nothing in terms of being a nice person. In fact, perhaps more commas have a negative effect on personality?






Now, I'm not keen on popcorn, but some strawberry cheesecake should do quite nicely.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 10, 2011)

Minimor said:


> I have just one thing to say after reading through the last few pages of this thread...if you don't have many commas, don't feel too bad, because apparently the number of commas one has means absolutely nothing in terms of being a nice person. In fact, perhaps more commas have a negative effect on personality?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Okay, for fear of being considered a tech noob - what the heck are these comma things you're all talking about lol???


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## andi (Aug 10, 2011)

I got lost also, at first I was thinking comma's in income, but maybe the comma's in the listing of jobs, not really sure . . .


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 10, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> :yeah
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thank you! So glad someone gets what I was trying to say! Hooray!! LOL That is exactly the problem with trying to make education run like a "business." We're not building widgets, we're building the future! And I LOVE your last line! As the daughter of a retired SWAT team member and the sister of a detective, besides being a teacher and being married to a teacher, I have a fondness for our public employees!

Barbara


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## ~Lisa~ (Aug 10, 2011)

I believe she (minimor) was commenting on not worrying about how much money one makes as money does not make you nice or not nice I dont know that is how I understood it but then I did not eat my chocolate or my popcorn yet and now all I can think about is smores


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## miniwhinny (Aug 10, 2011)

CharlesFamily said:


> Thank you! So glad someone gets what I was trying to say! Hooray!! LOL That is exactly the problem with trying to make education run like a "business." We're not building widgets, we're building the future! And I LOVE your last line! As the daughter of a retired SWAT team member and the sister of a detective, besides being a teacher and being married to a teacher, I have a fondness for our public employees!
> 
> Barbara


You're welcome



I think a lot of folks got what point you were making.



~Lisa~ said:


> I believe she (minimor) was commenting on not worrying about how much money one makes as money does not make you nice or not nice I dont know that is how I understood it but then I did not eat my chocolate or my popcorn yet and now all I can think about is smores


I think you're right....and now I have a giant craving for smores hahahaha


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## Minimor (Aug 11, 2011)

Smores, yes, I could use some of those too! I don't even have the fixins for those--will have to buy some tomorrow.




For tonight I have to make do with ice cream and saskatoon berries. Major hardship.

And yes, Lisa is right--the commas are those in the income amount, (when they first came into the conversation I had to read a couple of posts twice before I figured that one out.



) and honestly it does take more than an extra comma or two to make a better person.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

LOL! Commas... I even keep an uppity one in my name.

My profession means I must "worry" about money... the money other people entrust to me is extremely important to me and, in my world, an awesome responsibility. The money I must earn to pay the salaries of staff is also something important to more than just yours truly. I never mentioned a 1040 or personal income here, did I? However, I know the limited appeal of any actual facts.

If the above makes some people on LB think I'm a bad person, if sticking up for myself makes them think of me me a bad person, if standing up to or outing (not in the orientation sense) some extreme "jack-butt's" makes me a bad person, if the 12+ years of my real personality "shining" here makes anyone think less of me, or if honestly anything makes anyone here think I'm a bad person -- does that exactly change my life or the reality of who I am? No.

At any rate, it seems like you all need a little more fuel for the fire you're trying to enjoy. It's barely got a spark now. Keep pretending you don't check and re-check to see if there's any thing new and "juicy" to read on this thread if that makes you feel better about yourselves. Oh, and please, don't feel like you must continue to withhold _any_ political insights to the political threads you follow, scold others on and gossip about. Thinking is really hard work


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## ~Lisa~ (Aug 11, 2011)

Heck I am not going to deny I am coming back here- with no gym and not even being able to ride my new horse and having to sit with ice on my knee for 30 minutes at a time several times a day and school not starting for a couple weeks I do not have alot to do and find myself with plenty of "computer" time these days

And Jill no way does money make ya a bad person in my book. Heck in these times those that are lucky enough to be doing ok - more power to them.

My dad was a finanacial planner all his life prior to retiring.. needless to say I do not make him proud when it comes to that aspect of life


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## tagalong (Aug 11, 2011)

> At any rate, it seems like you all need a little more fuel for the fire you're trying to enjoy. It's barely got a spark now. Keep pretending you don't check and re-check to see if there's any thing new and "juicy" to read on this thread if that makes you feel better about yourselves. Oh, and please, don't feel like you must continue to withhold any political insights to the political threads you follow, scold others on and gossip about. Thinking is really hard work.








*Jil*l - that ^ was a bit much. I come back to this thread to see how the discussion is going (as I do for many threads on many topics - go figure!) - there was a good one going for a while there. And I do contribute political thoughts/concerns.

If you wish to be "juicy" and deliberately continue to stir the pot and sneer like that, it is no one else's doing but your own. Your choice. Your words. When you post llike that ^ , do you really think people are not going to respond or have an opinion? You deliberately light fires, fan the flames with great enthusiasm and then complain about the smoke... well, regrettably it does not work that way. You tend to reap what you sow. _Take responsibility for your own actions and the seeds you have sown. _



> However, I know the limited appeal of any actual facts








Here are some facts -_ you_ are the one who has reminded us in assorted threads how vastly superior your income and job is.... being successful does not make you a bad person in any way but bragging about it the way you have at times is not exactly... _professional_, for want of a better word. _You_ are the one who sneered at *kaykay* for jobs she had had. _You_ were the one who started that little discussion. _You_ are the one who paints that picture of yourself - none of us are responsible for that.





*Nathan* and I just carried on in that vein with a little bit of wry humour.

COMMAS!!



Yes, commas as in 1,000,000. A little bit of* tongue in cheek* smiling



as commas seemed to be important as a way of determining how important one's job was.... or how important one was as a person.







> if sticking up for myself makes them think of me me a bad person


It is *how* you do it - not the fact that you do it that goes awry at times. It is not the fault of anyone reading or posting here that you pat yourself on the back over and over again about your "instinct" to "stand up for yourself" (that you think no one else has) as a way to justify _everything_ you have said to people - no matter how inappropriate or rude. That is not instinct - just a lame excuse.

Oh well. It does not matter what anyone says or how much they try to put together a calm, measured post.... we will just be dismissed and told that "thinking is really hard work".





And the only "tone" in this post is what those emoticons demonstrate.... one long, sad sigh. Nothing "juicy'.

Happy Day After National Smores Day!!


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

Oh wow. Today is not only the day after National S'mores Day! It's also* National Presidential Joke Day*! 

 

I kid you not: http://upstatesc.tow...ner.com/events/

SO, in honor of this most special day, here you go:

 

Q. Why isn't TSA catching any terrorists?

A. They don't screen passengers on Air Force One.

 

 

Q. What's the difference between Obama opponents and Obama supporters?

A. The first group works for a living while the second group votes for a living.

 

 

Q. What's the only thing thinner than Barack Obama's résumé?

A. His skin.

 

 






 

 

Sorry if this is too on topic for a political thread!


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

Now see, I think jokes about peoples Race and Sensitivity shouldn't be considered "political topics".

But the fact that you see the two as one and the same actually explains alot.

A little food for though. Lets say you were watching a hilarious but offensive show, say for example, South park, and a group of people are being made fun of. You are laughing and entertained. What if someone from that group came into the room. What if they were grossly offended. Would common decency make you turn it off, or at least admit, that while you find it funny and entertaining, you respect them enough to apologize for it insulting them. Isn't there a line of decency that, while we allow the free market to cross it to boost ratings and help our economy, should still be considered.

I think we all need to think about where our own lines are before we speak, and not allow ourselves to make excuses to rationalize what would otherwise not be allowed, like, oh its national make fun of a race day. You want to make a political joke, make one about politics, not race.


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

Just a Little FYI, found this rather easily and quickly,

Presidential Joke Day - presidents have a sense of humor, too. Many people believe this is a day to make jokes about the president. On the contrary, this day is for presidents to make a joke. On this day in 1984, President Ronald Reagan made a doozie.

On August 11, 1984, just before his regular Saturday radio address, President Ronald Reagan was doing a voice test with the microphone. He thought the microphone and the feed was not live. He joked into the microphone: "My fellow Americans, I am pleased to tell you I just signed legislation which outlaws Russia forever. The bombing begins in five minutes." To his surprise, he was speaking to a live feed!

This incident led to the creation of "Presidential Joke Day". However, we do not think American presidents will make it a habit to perform jokes on, or to, the American public on this day, or any other.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

Regarding what andi-James just posted (one above his most recent), we could also just continue to clearly label political threads as such so that no one "walks into the room" and is unexpectedly offended


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## 2minis4us (Aug 11, 2011)

I am REALLY trying to stay off this topic but *DANG* Jill, you are really over doing it now


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

andi said:


> Now see, I think jokes about peoples Race and Sensitivity shouldn't be considered "political topics".


What?

Did you read the TSA joke to refer to Obama's race? Or support of Muslims? Because I read that joke as a reference to Obama's questionable friendships (Bill Ayers, for one).

The joke that mentions skin was regarding thinness (not color).

I said and meant nothing racist.


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

I agree Jill, I would LOVE some political topics, but don't trick people into the room, letting them think there is an educated conversation going on about politics, when in reality it is actually just a bunch of generalized, or in this case, personalized, uneducated racist Jokes.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

andi said:


> I agree Jill, I would LOVE some political topics, but don't trick people into the room, letting them think there is an educated conversation going on about politics, when in reality it is actually just a bunch of generalized, or in this case, personalized, uneducated racist Jokes.


Oh for Pete's sake, James!





Do you sincerely think I "tricked anyone into the room" by by baiting them with the idea that I was going to provide a solid list of reasons I think people voted for Obama? AND TWELVE of them at that LOL! There's just no way I could. *Can you even say you think that's what I did out loud without smirking?*





Let me just quote the topic title and subtitle: "Top 12 Reasons People Voted Democrat in 2008: laugh, frown, or take your pick".

Now, I'm going to go work with some client commas.

PS you didn't get back to me about what you found racist. I know it's an easy card to play, but maybe harder to back up?


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

Jill, I most definitly read the first joke as a reference to his muslim background and connections. As I suspect the original writer may have intended it. I guess either one of us could be correct, there is no way to know.

For someone who keeps being missunderstood and vilinized you sure haven't got any more carefull chosing your words.


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## 2minis4us (Aug 11, 2011)

Good grief Jill !!



Can't you give it a rest ???????????


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

It seems whenever I get the time to post you have someone more important to talk to, I am really starting to think it might be just me, but I don't want to assume that.

Jill, I knew what this topic was, but the moment I disagreed with what you wrote I wasn't welcomed anymore. If you don't like the topic get off it. NO, If I dont like the topic, I am going to voice that. I am going to make sure people know that there are others who don't agree with this. If no body does everybody assumes all those views and "likes" are in support, THEY ARE NOT.

You tell me, hey I am gonna make a really homophobic joke, don't listen, I would have everyright to be offended already. As would anyone you are about to insult, heads up or not. You dont care, and still make it, ofcourse I am going to step up and tell you how wrong it is.

Just imagine a School bully or click at school, making fun of an outsider. The group says, "hey were all gonna make fun of you and laugh at you, so dont listen." They get in trouble and try to get out of it by telling the teacher, well we told him not to listen, what an oversenstive little tattle tail . . .

Maybe If we all held ourselved to the standards we are supposed to teach our kids we would be in a better position right now . . .


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## Riverrose28 (Aug 11, 2011)

What's the difference between Obama opponents and Obama supporters?

A. The first group works for a living while the second group votes for a living.

OMG! I only have dial up and can 't view the vedios, so I will only respond to this statement. Yes I'm a registered Democrate, but have voted for Republicans in the past, I always vote for the best candidate, not just on party lines. I find this statment offensive, as I worked for 36 years as well as raised five children before I was forced to retire by my Doctor. My husband is also a Democrate and still is working and because of this recession will never be able to retire, NEVER! As of now I have only been reading the posts and staying out of it, because in the past I've been called a Lemming, it was edited out later, and also told I was not your Mother, when I was trying to be diplomatic, but enough is enough. Democtrats do hold jobs and work every day, they don't receive welfare and food stamps as you seem to believe. Sad to say I don't think those people that receive these payouts even consider voting, just when their next check is going to arrive. We pay our morgage and grow our own food just to survive, yes the economy is very bad, but one man alone can not fix it. You need to get off of your high horse and start showing some respect for others even if they are different then you and have different Political views.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

People who want to be offended can be. No one read this thread expecting it to be pro-Democrat. The title made it clear it was a tongue in cheek kind of post.



andi said:


> It seems whenever I get the time to post you have someone more important to talk to, I am really starting to think it might be just me, but I don't want to assume that.


andi-James, I'm sure you, too, have a lot of other things you do each day but yes... everyone in my life is more important to me to talk to than you and I had some important things to do right on the heels of taking the time to post two or three times to you. The order of priority has to do with a lot of things, but one of them might have to do with the names you called me (some of which posts were removed by moderators). You're just not someone I personally care for anymore, but that wasn't the case just a couple of weeks ago. I'm sure you're equally fond of me.

I don't see your points in many of your posts. You don't see mine. So how many times should we "try" to have a discussion? Aren't you as tired of it as I am?


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## minimomNC (Aug 11, 2011)

Wow Jill, I guess I am surprised that you think I am uneducated, lazy and live off of government welfare. Did you think that of me years ago when we first met or is this something you have decided I am because of my political party. Did you think the same thing of my husband as well, you also met him.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

Plus, think of poor moth-to-the-flame "2minis4us". It's such a shame when her computer makes her read threads she dosn't want to follow


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## 2minis4us (Aug 11, 2011)

GOOD ! Let's end this post, but WAIT..... Jill always has to get the last word in


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

minimom-Karen, I don't really know all that much about you but I thought you could tell what a joke is -- even when you don't think it's funny. But I haven't expressed a negative feeling about you personally.

If people want to pretend the Top 12 List is serious, or that the jokes are serious... Go for it. I won't be awake tonight sweating it.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> GOOD ! Let's end this post, but WAIT..... Jill always has to get the last word in


And 2minis4us, you moth to a flame who posts and then gets worried and removes the words you said, you contribute nothing but sideline judgements to these threads that you swear you don't want to read.

I'm not sure if you realized, but I was actually replying to the other posters that solicited feed back from me.


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

Jill, I beleive Racist was the harshest name I ever gave you the option of explaining, it has not been deleted. I do beleive I called you a hypocrit and a liar, and included quotes from you that showed the alleged contradictions. These references to personal attacks that no longer exist make it sound like there was a much meaner me that got deleted. As far as I know, those post got deleted because they didnt really belong in the topic they were and because we BOTH has spoiled the entire topic.

I will admit Jill my explaitions are more for the readers than you, as I stated before, I just want to make sure that people don't mistake many members fear based silence as agreement or support. I won't rehash my explanations, anyone other than you who has read them can understand their very simple points. All I have done is taken yours and my behavior and put it in a more simple context than polotics.

Maybe a Miss Swan quote would seem fitting. "Im not talking _to_ you, I'm talking _at_ you", so don't feel required to reply if you get confused. If what I said seems childish or offends you, just don't read my posts, I dont beleive you have ever read one expecting it to be pro Jill. Gosh just saying those sentences makes me feel dirty, like I need a chemical shower. Do you really beleive this stuff you say Jill, what I just said and that Terrys more at fault for reading your words than you are for saying them !?

And no Jill, not tired at all, thank you for the concern . . .

Edited to add ...

OOH, people were busy while I was replying, I really wish I could spell so I could reply quicker LOL


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

Will try not to explain it too much, but was this meant as a Joke,

"I do think most liberals tend to be kind of lazy, love government handouts"


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

andi said:


> Jill, I beleive Racist was the harshest name I ever gave you


Have you really forgotten so quickly? Because I don't even think it's been a week. Racist, bigot, liar, hypocrit, bad person, and more. You've been nothing other than a real *******.

I'll check this thread out again tomorrow. H and I have other plans for this evening.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2011)

andi said:


> Will try not to explain it too much, but was this meant as a Joke,
> 
> "I do think most liberals tend to be kind of lazy, love government handouts"


http://www.studentnewsdaily.com/other/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/

One more, then I really gotta go...

Q. How do you drive liberals crazy?

A. Work hard, succeed and smile.

(It's on a coffee mug and everything.)

Later...


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## tagalong (Aug 11, 2011)

Now I can smile at the points in the OP and the Obama jokes were rather lame - as a supposed joke should actually try to be... I dunno... funny.

This one...



> Q. How do you drive liberals crazy? A. Work hard, succeed and smile.


.. is a complete headscratcher/eyeroller that makes no sense. Why? Because working hard, succeeding and smiling is not just what Rs or Conservatives do (as some would have you believe). Many people work hard, succeed and smile the world over - and they are not bothering anyone or holding themselves up as some kind of archetype. Nor are they defined by any specific political leaning or persuasion. Hence, it is not really a joke of any kind.

Success is not always measured by commas & numbers, you know.

Joke time?





GOP Motto: (but could apply to whoever is in control at the time as they are all the same)

_If at first you don’t succeed, make sure your successors don’t either._

"Great day today! Obama didn't speak. Congress didn't act. Experts on vacation. And the Dow soared 400 points. There's a lesson in there." – Jay Leno


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

I dont see lazy in that chart . . .


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## andi (Aug 11, 2011)

Jill, I am actually starting to think you really dont read my posts, you just fly on auto when you see my name. Right after the quote you took from my post, I say I called you a hypocrit and liar. I did leave out the redundanct Bigot and did not feel the need to repeat or remember the other one, the extremely offensive "bad person".

Out of respect to you and ML, I did not repeat what you said to me, though I have a suspician you wouln't mind having it put on a t shirt to display to everyone.


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## 2minis4us (Aug 12, 2011)

"Moth to the Flame" ???

Jill, you bring out the best in me


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## Jill (Aug 12, 2011)

James, I think after your railing on me, on a thread you created and then went through some extreme moderator editing, you called me the names I said and more. I do not recall what I picked for you, but I'm thinking it either started with a J or an A.

I do not read every word of your posts. If you want to read every word of mine, you're more than welcome to. However, I am not going to get into "it" with you again, where you want me to reword anything I said or you want me to defend against what you interpret this or that JOKE I shared means. While I am not wild that a handful on this thread don't get, or don't want to get, what I have actually said -- these are people who historically do not get what I say and do not seem to have ever taken a shine to me anyway. It really doesn't matter if they want to understand clarifications or not. Some (others) will get it. I'm not running for prom queen here and I am not at all unhappy with the way I've worded things (potential typos and misspellings aside).

But, really, James, I am tired of typing back and forth with you because it's the same old, same old with two people who do not see things the same and quite clearly do not like each other. It's like you keep asking me to say more or explain XYZ (again). I am tired / bored of what I see as you being super sensitive and eager to be personally offended and my lack of desire to keep hashing the same stuff out with no potential for an agreement or appreciation between the two of us...


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## andi (Aug 12, 2011)

Jill we railed on one another in that thread, to keep bringing up and twisting words that dont even exist anymore, is unfair. If you read into something I am always right there to clarify for you. I will explain a misswording if needed, it happens.

I do agree it is a waste of time if this is just endless back and forth. Something I will take from this and I hope you will, a conversation or debate works best if the other person actually reads your posts. Missing 75% of my list of things I called you and saying you can't believe I forgot them, when I JUST listed them, goes far beyond "not reading every single word". I do not mind admitting reading everysingle word spoken on these topics, over and over.


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## Jill (Aug 12, 2011)

Well, just content yourself with re-reading, James. I don't want to continue to "correspond" one-on-one with you -- as I hope you will gather from a couple-few recent responses from me.


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## 2minis4us (Aug 12, 2011)

Hey Jill -

I just want to apologize. I am sorry. I just get so worked up over these political posts





I decided NOT to read them anymore.


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## Jill (Aug 12, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> Hey Jill -
> 
> I just want to apologize. I am sorry. I just get so worked up over these political posts
> 
> ...


Thanks, 2minis4us. We may not have much in common or much fun talking to each other on political threads but I bet there are a lot of other things we'd see eye to eye on. I'm sorry I called you a moth to the flame.


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## 2minis4us (Aug 12, 2011)

Jill said:


> Thanks, 2minis4us. We may not have much in common or much fun talking to each other on political threads but I bet there are a lot of other things we'd see eye to eye on. I'm sorry I called you a moth to the flame.


Apology accepted. I thought of "Candle in the Wind" LOL


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