# A few questions...



## Oceanspray Farm (May 6, 2013)

Firstly I hope everyone is having a lovely day, especially now that we're moving into summer!

I have a few questions...

Have you ever ponied your mini from your cart while driving (obviously driving a safe mini)? I have three miniatures, and my partner and I like to go out together with the boys. When we go for walks I lead two minis and he leads one. Or when I just drive he will lead the other two. It is not possible to leave one behind, it doesn't matter which one they all scream at the top of their lungs, you can hear it from very far away! The one that is left behind works themselves right up, neighing, racing around the paddock even if there is hay out. They have always been like that despite working on the "being left alone". If I could do it over I would never own three, I would own four. Actually, I'm at the point where I'd like to add a shetland or perhaps another miniature to the mix. That's yet another decision I have to make. I've always had miniatures and large horses, never ponies! Anyways, in the mean time I was wondering if both my boyfriend and I are out driving, what do you think of bringing the third along with us on lead? I'm not sure how I would do this. I've ponied off of riding horses before but never while driving. Any thoughts? I can see it being a safety hazard but I do trust all of the horses.

Also...I am looking for yet another single driving horse cart. The two I have been focusing on are the hyperbike but mostly the smartcart. I do mainly trail/road driving and am getting into the CDE side of things. I have always done CDE type things but out on my own never at a proper CDE. My issue with the hyperbike is that I know people say it's super comfortable, but I have a very bad back and bad knees. The position I see people sitting in looks incredibly uncomfortable. I don't have any issues with the smartcart. I guess it's like comparing apples to oranges. *sigh*.


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## Rhondaalaska (May 6, 2013)

I have seen people pony foals next to thier dams before. And I saw on Utube a professional trainer pony a large pony behind his cart.

Others may be able to share thier experiance with you


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## Marsha Cassada (May 6, 2013)

I frequently pony another horse when I drive. Be sure to use two leads, one attached to each side of the cart to keep the ponied horse from coming up beside you. I attach my leads to the seat supports and that has worked well. Also be aware that some like to nibble on you or the cart seat.

My Dapper Dan has ponied many a silly horse. He tows them if they get balky and he brakes them if they get fiesty. They soon learn to trot along nicely. They would much rather pony than be left behind!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 6, 2013)

I haven't ponied a second horse but around here it is not entirely uncommon to see draft teams with a spare horse (or 2) fastened to the team so that all the horses get some exercise and experience. They don't pony the spare horses they actually use a lead and fasten the horse to the horse to the hames of the harness. Whether that is the right/safest spot or not I don't know (nor where you could safely fasten them if you don't drive with a collar and hames). I think paintponyluvr on here has some experience in taking along extras so hopefully she will have some suggestions for you.


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## rbrown (May 7, 2013)

I pony Skip behind Kandy several times a week- but I know that I am taking a risk every time I do so! I drive one-handed (with my left hand), and hold Skip's lead line and my whip in my right hand. I started off by just going around the driveway loop at the barn to see if the horses and I could handle it, knowing that I could just drop Skip's lead line if needed. Skip just loves following behind (she's definitely more of a follower than a leader!), Kandy is a very experienced, well-behaved driving horse, and Skip is great at following my commands (walk, trot, whoa, etc) as she follows behind. I don't tie her to the cart, because I personally feel safer with her lead line in my hand (and because Skippy knows not to get alongside the cart- she is very good about staying behind), but if i did tie, I would probably use baling twine or something else that would break if she began to panic, so that she wouldn't be pulling the cart around in a panic and scaring Kandy in the process... I do not want that kind of excitement when I drive!






I've only been ponying Skip recently but we used to pony Skip all the time when she was a foal, too, so it's not like this is an entirely new experience for her- she just hasn't done it in about 6 years, until last month!! When Skip was young, I had my sister ride with me and hold Skippy's lead rope while I drove Kandy. That was safer, IMO, because my sister could keep a constant eye on Skip and hop off, or let out the rope, etc. when needed. Having a second person might be useful when training a horse to pony.

Right now, I'm ponying Skip mostly because when I go to catch Kandy and take her out for a drive, poor Skippy is always butting in and trying to come along- so one day I decided to give it a shot because I was feeling so guilty by leaving her behind!! I know it's not the safest thing, but I know my horses well and trust them to behave, even in sticky situations.


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## paintponylvr (May 7, 2013)

I *heard* my name!!

I have some experience - both good and bad!

When I had big horses growing up, we too ponied our babies out on trails with their dam's. I grew up seeing and hearing of trainers overseas (we had a "sister" organization in Australia that we often kept in touch with) and the trainers often rode one horse and ponied a "mob" off of the one they rode...

When we started breeding ponies and I got my first riding horse again, I often ponied up to 4 youngsters off of the one mare - down the road a couple of miles to the barn with a round pen and an arena. Then I spent a couple of hours working each pony individually. The rest all stood tied - getting practice tying out in a busy area while their pasture mates were worked. Then attached up and home again, home again. To pony them - each was wearing a saddle and the next was tied to the horn/pommel of the one "in front". The 4th was not saddled and was usually younger. Now, I can't say exactly how it worked so well. I've been back down to the area and just about had a heart attack looking over the area - the traffic had quadrupled and I couldn't even imagine doing anything like that now! At that time, my 3 daughters and I did a lot of work with all of our babies - they were often leading well and leaving their dams and loading in a trailer easily by 3 months of age. They led at a walk, trot and canter from either side. Some I would use a chain over the nose & I would pony them that way - but that one would be hand led not tied into the line...

So when I started driving, we started experimenting with tying the foals to their dams. The first one didn't work too well - neither the mare nor her colt liked it and we stopped - since we were just driving at home. Instead, he ran along with or ran separate. At 3 months of age he started staying in his paddock while his dam was driven off the property - starting just a quick few minutes. They both got used to it - but I had plenty of pasture mates for him to interact with at home. He learned that she came back and then he'd nurse.











(wow, sorry these photos are sooo huge)...

The 2nd was only 20 days old when we hauled her off our property for our first driving lessons. She did a combination of staying tied at the trailer, running loose with a lead line dragging and then being tied to her dam's surcingle. The lead rope was "rigged" so that it went thru her halter, between her front legs and then looped around her rump. She could pull back but didn't injure her neck and the butt rope encouraged her to move forward. However - looking at my pictures - had we done this with her bigger/older - she could easily have sat back and destroyed the surcingle. I have definitely had foals that this wouldn't work with...





https://picasaweb.google.com/purplepaintpony/GGBellS2010ShetlandFilly#5868741601715166322











A lot of the pleasure harness(s), IMO, aren't heavy enough to hold a ponied horse that is full size if either he/she or the one he/she is attached to is unhappy about the set up. However, you could try "tying" them in another way. Tie around the neck of the pony horse. If the led horse is harnessed, you could then also attach a breeching tie and if using a pleasure harness a halter tie (or just stay with the tie around the neck). I would practice this while ground driving - before putting the driven horse in the shafts of your cart. You are essentially driving a pair. I'd also leave a lead line attached (light and long) to the ponied horse - you can pick it up to direct the horse if necessary. To slow down your ponied horse you can pick up the line...

In 2011, we didn't have any foals with the mares that I was driving. The one mare that did have a foal and that we were starting, I didn't usually tie her off to. The mare was a "rearer" and I didn't want the filly picking up on that while being tied to her dam... In 2012, this mare was no longer a "rearer" and we DID do below:

With work harness we tie the foals to their dam's collar/hames. The foals have the lead rope around their girth and run thru their front legs, thru a large ring attached to their small halters to the tie point. The end of the lead around their bodies has a large ring as well - so that the lead tightens and loosens easily w/o us having to straighten it out (most of the time). We have done some work with the foals on leading before they are first tied to their dams. But we've also had them pull the hames off their dam's collars - having to stop the cart/wagon and go fix it and start out again (I also punched more holes in the hame straps and tightened them up the next time they were used).






Now for the bad - they ended up working out OK but could have garnered much more serious injuries. In both cases, things happened fast - as always with horses.

The one was while ponying a yearling arab gelding off of an un-related mare. He was tired of being ponied and was quickly becoming a "butt head" - we were almost home and I was sooooo glad... My lead for him was too long and I did up extra dallies around my saddle horn to take up some of the length - I usually didn't do that. When we arrived at a water puddle, he decided he was "done". He sat back and then reared - our angle was ok so we just gave him a yank forward w/o a problem. But it pulled all the dallies tight and locked them down... The next time he went up, he wasn't angled right and sat down leaping and pulling backwards and he yanked me and that mare right off her feet! I "tumbled" free of the saddle (probably not very gracefully, but free of hooves and didn't bang my head). He is still attached (but not tied) and he's still leaping backwards and pulling - dragging a mare that is 2x his size - across a plowed field. She couldn't get her feet under her to get up - every time she got set, he'd yank her back down.... Now this is a colt who had been handled from birth, imprinted, ponied off of his dam, ponied off of this mare for a couple of months, loaded, bathed, led w/t and had been shown at a couple of local shows. He "knew" to give to pressure but in this situation he wasn't... Don't know how long this went on - he yanked her down back several times. I had a knife on my belt - found it not to be working (I was probably shaking to much) and they were bobbing up and down too... So I followed them, grabbing up her reins, clearing around her hooves and got up by him and just started talking... Eventually got him to calm down and stop/stand. We were on the drive that went back to our pasture, so I unhooked him from the lead on her saddle, attached one of her reins to him (love snaps on my reins/lines when they don't break) and led them back to home pasture... Next day, and every time after that he was fine. He didn't enter that water puddle that day (I was worn out from the adrenaline rush) BUT the next day - he did w/o an issue. Never ever had another leading issue again! I sold him as a green (60 days under saddle) horse at 4 years of age.

The next incident was just a short time ago... It was a driving one and "wrecked" my new wagon of 6 months... Not bad, but shouldn't have ever happened. I know that many people pony horses of all sizes and ages off of equipment. I know that they pony them off of carts and wagons. I've got pictures and I've done some myself. Usually when we "pony" one - they aren't tied "hard and fast" but more like above - just a dally or two and the end the lead is held. In this instance, we were ponying two colts. It was the last work of the day, I know I saw what was getting ready to happen (she tied them to the back of the seat of my wagon), but didn't recognize or maybe "register" it... I was in the front seat driving my pair, she was sitting in the back seat and had tied both a two yr old and a yearling to the top of the back seat. While these two are "babies" they are both actually quite a bit larger than the pair I'm driving (they are 1/2 shetlands, 1/4 hackney, 1/4 arab - full brothers). I asked at one point how they were doing - we were walking and she stated they were fine... I was having an issue with one of the ponies I was driving (she was wanting to run and jump around - maybe foreboding??), so when she said that I paid little attention to them... And again we are approaching some water. Now - these two colts have also been handled since birth. The older colt is familiar with some here - I've demo'd pics of him in harness and ground driving - as a weanling... He had some ground driving as a yearling as well - but hadn't actually been worked in a while. He has been bathed and cold hosed for leg injuries and hs worked thru water. His yearling brother has been handled and bathed, however, wasn't any where near the same level of work... I should have known better. LIVE AND LEARN - probably good that we both lived! Later she told me that Rocket sat back first (the yearling) and that Comet followed suit. All I knew was that as the pair I was driving exited the water (a shallow puddle that extended across the path), there was a loud crack and then a crunch, bang bang, splash, SPLASH. I stopped the girls, they stood as I turned in the seat. My friend and the seat are gone but I can't see where from this angle and I turn the other way - she and the seat are on the ground but one of her feet is between the wheels of the wagon. Partially in the puddle, everything is well coated in mud... Took a bit of time to work thru this one - at first she didn't respond when I asked if she was ok. The boys yank the seat out from under her and of course, it follows them. I concentrated on her. Her voice was raspy, but then she was slowly able to shift and pull herself out of the path of the wagon at which point I drove the pair forward and up to a tree, halted, went forward and tied them (I only tied the one, I wanted the extra leadrope to use if needed on the other two...). Turned around & the colts are of course freaked out (they are both tied to an object that is now following them) and have "moved off" a bit - they get tangled up in each other and the wagon seat and fall down, then leap up get a few more steps and come to another fall w/ the yearling caught and staying down but I attend my friend and forget about them for now. Nothing appears to be broken, lots of scrapes but she has a headache (that will shortly worry me). We work her towards a tree that she can sit against in the shade (at times like this I love our NC pines) and I turn to the colts. Rocket is still down, but a quick check shows he's probably fine and if I release his head (lead rope), he'll be able to bounce right up. Comet is wide eyed and braced but responding to voice and calming down. So I continue talking (I think??) and get the lead in my hands on Rocket and unhook the other one. Pull his curled under fore leg out of the tangle and set it out and he's up. No scrapes, no cuts and he's also calming down... I don't remember how I got Comet loose - I think I just untied him from the wagon seat?? Anyhoo, he was fine and I tied them both to trees while I check on my friend. Her head really hurts now, and it's made worse cause she's hopping mad (it's kinda funny now - wasn't that day!). I want her to stay seated in the shade and she does. I take on working the colts and I believe spent the next hour plus - but before we figured out how to get back to our trailer - they were both leading thru the water from each side, being sent thru the puddle - pseudo ground driving. I didn't "graduate" to attaching them together - they both proved to be a lot of work to get to this point. I was caught completely by surprise and was highly frustrated with Comet's reactions. Rocket's I was much more understanding with... Tied them both to the tree again, and check on friend again. She's able to stand now w/o getting dizzy. Finally check on my wagon seat and go look at the wagon itself...



In the end it isn't as bad as it could have been but like I stated at the beginning - it should never have happened to begin with... This was part of the reason I didn't end up going to TX thre weeks ago (Vicki did have a concussion and she couldn't care for my ponies as originally planned). I ended up taking my wagon back up to OH after talking to some folk down here. It was nicer to take it back and get it fixed where it was built - also gave me an excuse to get some customization done on it. I leave on Thursday to pick it up....

The draft horse people that I've seen tie a saddle horse to their wagons - haven't tied to the seats. The larger wagons (some anyway) are made with a reinforced area that can take some pulling (and of course, the led horse is expected to lead). Some actually have a way to tie a horse that leads directly to the axle - which is, I suppose, stronger.

We plan on ponying our ponies off of our wagon and forecart again. We will have to study on how to do so if no one is able to safely hold them. My girlfriend has been comfortable tying a smaller, single pony to the back of her wagon and has taken him with her on several outings that way. He crosses water, goes up and down hills, over logs and thru deep sand (he's one of mine, too). I was really uncomfortable with her taking him that way at our last drive on Saturday the 4th of May, but he did great, no pulling back and no issues with him or her wagon. However, some others had a problem - the horse was "cross tied" behind the wagon. He did great at the beginning of the drive, was ridden during part of it, and then tied up behind the wagon again. Don't know what set him off - for reasons I don't know they had two separate halters and leads on him - one of the halters broke and the other lead came loose when he sat back and pulled. He trotted off a bit. The caught him and retied him he was ok but was consistently hanging back, so they stopped and the woman who owned him went back to riding him. He's been ponied this way before and I'm told he's always been fine. But we had a lot of horses go "bonkers" with the bad weather at this drive.

So... be aware that it can work but it can also go really wrong. Let us know what you come up with for driving. Also, do some close to home works with each mini taking turns staying in the paddock while you take away the other two. You don't have to drive them, just take them away. It's always good for the one left at home to learn he/she is OK by themselves. And even if you have 4, one may still be upset regardless of the "partner" in the pasture with him.


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## paintponylvr (May 7, 2013)

Here is a picture of the smaller colt ponied off of the wagon at two different drives -
















And here is a pic of the horse cross tied behind the wagon on Saturday.


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## Margo_C-T (May 11, 2013)

I have done it, but it definitely has its risks. I would not do it 'outside'(I only did so in my securely-enclosed arena); nor with any horse not WELL-trained to lead, nor with anything but a VERY solid, well-trained horse that you are driving. MOST of the horses I did it with gnawed the back of the cart seat(an 'original Frontier EE), ruining the upholstery on my first Frontier. I did tie, but w/ a quick release knot, of course. I would not recommend doing it 'out in the neighborhood'---too much risk for the ponied horse should it get away from you. JMHO.

Margo in NM


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## Oceanspray Farm (May 18, 2013)

Thank you very much for everyones replies I appreciate it! I don't love the idea of it...I think I would prefer to buy another mini or perhaps a small pony that I can also drive but can also be left behind when two are out or at a show. Seems like the safer option haha!


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## paintponylvr (May 19, 2013)

Can you put the horse left at home in a stall? That way they can't "run like crazy" working themselves into upset and screaming themselves "hoarse". Can still get upset, but in a more contained, safer, way.


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