# Hardshipping "sale"



## Minimor (Nov 14, 2011)

I am surprised no one has posted anything about this yet! (actually I'm surprised at how little info there's been about convention this year...no one has said a word about which rule changes did or did not pass--I know a few that passed and a few that failed but haven't heard about the others yet.

Anyway--for 2012 (Jan 1st to Dec. 31st) AMHR is cutting their "hardship" fees in half. This means that stallions can hardship in for $200 and mares/geldings for $100. If anyone has AMHA horses that they've been wanting to register with AMHR but felt that it was too costly to do--this is your chance!!

Someone said this is the AMHR's version of economic stimulous!


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## Tremor (Nov 14, 2011)

Minimor said:


> I am surprised no one has posted anything about this yet! (actually I'm surprised at how little info there's been about convention this year...no one has said a word about which rule changes did or did not pass--I know a few that passed and a few that failed but haven't heard about the others yet.
> 
> Anyway--for 2012 (Jan 1st to Dec. 31st) AMHR is cutting their "hardship" fees in half. This means that stallions can hardship in for $200 and mares/geldings for $100. If anyone has AMHA horses that they've been wanting to register with AMHR but felt that it was too costly to do--this is your chance!!
> 
> Someone said this is the AMHR's version of economic stimulous!


At what age can you hardship got AMHR?


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## vanessa101 (Nov 14, 2011)

yes im totally going to look into this alot more now


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## MBennettp (Nov 14, 2011)

Wow, Thanks for the info, I have 2 mares that will definitely be getting hardshipped!

Now if I don't forget about it. (I hate having CRS)

Mary


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 14, 2011)

You can hardship AMHA horses into AMHR at any age, as long as they are AMHA registered. ASPC horses have to at least be 3 years or older from their actual birthday.

Thats kind of cool AMHR is doing that. Do you know of anything else that has passed? No one isn't saying much of anything with what went down at Convention.


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## ohmt (Nov 14, 2011)

WOOOHOOO!! Well that makes me extremely happy. Wish AMHA would do the same, but i've been contemplating going primarily AMHR anyway and this just added fuel to the fire. I've got quite a few mares just AMHA that I will definitely be hardshipping.

Thanks!


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## Tremor (Nov 14, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> You can hardship AMHA horses into AMHR at any age, as long as they are AMHA registered. ASPC horses have to at least be 3 years or older from their actual birthday.
> 
> Thats kind of cool AMHR is doing that. Do you know of anything else that has passed? No one isn't saying much of anything with what went down at Convention.


Are you only able to hardship horses with AMHA and ASPC registries? Like, I have a little mare who I would be interested in hardshipping as we never made her dam's papers permanent. The mare was bred afterwards and sold. We owned the stallion at the time of conception but never sent in a stud report. Would she still be able to be hardshipped?


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## walkermini (Nov 14, 2011)

That is great! I have several mares I've been wanting to hardship, I will definately do it next year now!


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 14, 2011)

Tremor said:


> Are you only able to hardship horses with AMHA and ASPC registries? Like, I have a little mare who I would be interested in hardshipping as we never made her dam's papers permanent. The mare was bred afterwards and sold. We owned the stallion at the time of conception but never sent in a stud report. Would she still be able to be hardshipped?


Technically AMHR is a closed registry with the exception of hardshipping AMHA and ASPC horses so yes if she is unregistered then she will not be able to be hardshipped. If you can get the mare pernament and send in a late stallion report you can still register the baby.


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## Minimor (Nov 14, 2011)

> Thats kind of cool AMHR is doing that. Do you know of anything else that has passed? No one isn't saying much of anything with what went down at Convention.


The few I know are:
--the HOF points proposals (that is, the one that wanted no points if no competition and the one that about needing 5 wins with competition even if the division offers no championship class) failed

--the ones regarding stallion certificates being given out, and DNA testing of any foal produced by a mare that was bred by two different stallions within 30 days of each other all passed but are not being made extraordinary

--the long winded one regarding an exemption for Shetlands being registered after the end of their yearling year (read the proposal for the exact details--it's a rather long one) failed.

Those were the only ones I asked about but there are more I'd like to know about--someone must know some more?



> Wow, Thanks for the info, I have 2 mares that will definitely be getting hardshipped!Now if I don't forget about it. (I hate having CRS)
> 
> Mary


Mary--I'll try to remember to post a reminder or two after Jan. 1st. I don't want to see anyone forgetting a good deal like this!!


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## Tremor (Nov 14, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> Technically AMHR is a closed registry with the exception of hardshipping AMHA and ASPC horses so yes if she is unregistered then she will not be able to be hardshipped. If you can get the mare pernament and send in a late stallion report you can still register the baby.


That sucks. I kind of figured that when I didn't see a whole lot about hardshipping on their site.

Can't say I didn't try!


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Nov 14, 2011)

I just found out about this when I called today to make sure I had everything I needed to hardship my mare, so she was nice and told me about it! Now I am waiting which is good since I just sent out 2 hardships for mares into AMHA



that was painful LOL!


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## Devon (Nov 14, 2011)

Wow AWESOME I happen to have 2 mares hardshipping in 2012


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## REO (Nov 14, 2011)

Remind me too please!!!


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## Relic (Nov 15, 2011)

Thanks for mentioning this Holly l sure never heard...l already had a money order and current pix all ready to drop of in the mail for a couple of mares l was sending of this week who had foals from A/R stallions so this really helps...nice


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## frostedpineminis (Nov 15, 2011)

YAY!!! My entire herd is getting done!!!



I never heard about this until today it was posted in the sales board, so excited!!!


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## LindaL (Nov 15, 2011)

I was at convention, but missed the AMHR committee, so was not aware of this...but YAY!! I have a horse I'd like to get hardshipped in (if he doesn't sell soon). I may go shopping for a few ASPC (AMHR hardship eligible) mares now...lol


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## Field-of-Dreams (Nov 15, 2011)

That is AWESOME!! We have one ASPC gelding that needs hardshipped, so that will be super! I do believe all my AMHA horses are already in AMHR.

Now if we could only get AMHA do do the same thing... I have about four or five mares I'd love to hardship but there's now way I can afford it at the current prices...


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## kaykay (Nov 15, 2011)

Falabella horses can also be hardshipped once they reach age 3


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## BeeBopMini (Nov 15, 2011)

Thanks KayKay, put in a reminder notice for me as well. Been wanting to hardship my AMHA 27" stallion into AMHR ... thats GREAT news!


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## ohmt (Nov 15, 2011)

I did a little calculating today and thought this was kind of neat so wanted to share.

For me to hardship 3 AMHA mares into AMHR and then register their daughters with AMHR I would end up paying $780 total for 8 horses. Yes, EIGHT mares that would bring me from 6 A/R mares to 14 A/R mares. That includes all registration fees.

Now for AMHA-to hardship 4 mares, 2 of which would be progeny hardship, I would pay $1800, which does not include registration, DNA, and late stallion report fees. I also want to progeny hardship a show gelding, which is $100 so that brings me to $1900. WITH the extra fees, if I add another $100+ (which is too low, but I didn't have time to look up exact numbers) that's about $2500 that I will spend on hardshipping 5 horses-3 of which are progeny hardships. Oh, and I have to drive 5 hours to get to the nearest person who is allowed by the registry to measure my horses for hardship. Didn't add that cost either.

Just a bit of interesting information


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## targetsmom (Nov 15, 2011)

This is great news! All our minis are triple registered (A/R/Pinto) except two, so this will be the incentive we need to get them all the same! Plus we hope to do more R shows in the future. Both have been shown A & Pinto so could stay on the show string.


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## vvf (Nov 15, 2011)

Wow!, Makes me appreciate AMHR more and more all the time.. Way to go AMHR! I agree, AMHA could learn sure something from them.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 15, 2011)

If AMHA did the same I would probably hardship in my 2 geldings. Especially since they are closing I believe its 2013, this would be the year to do it.


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## Riverrose28 (Nov 15, 2011)

This is great news! I have two AMHA only mares that I can now afford to trasfer to AMHR. I wish AMHA would help! I would love to hardship my grandsons gelding in to AMHA so he could show him at their shows. Plus I have several others stallions and mares that would gualify but its too darn expensive. Even their registration fees and bringing to permanent are very costly. I sometimes wonder if their overhead is really that high. If they would give the common man a little break, maybe more people would show with them.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Nov 15, 2011)

This is "FANTASTIC" news....thank you to AMHR. I have about eight mares to hardship!!!!!!!


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## Magic (Nov 15, 2011)

Oh yay!! I bought a buckskin Buck Zeus daughter a little while back who is currently only AMHA registered and getting her AMHR registered is a priority for me. Thanks AMHR, you ROCK!!!


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## picasso (Nov 15, 2011)

Question: I have a mare to hardship that is in foal due end of January. Will the foal be "R" or will I have to hardship it too? No way that I can get her to a steward, etc to be measured before she foals.


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## RockRiverTiff (Nov 15, 2011)

Wow! THANK YOU for sharing this! The stallion we lost last year was not hardshipped into AMHR before we lost him, so I was gearing up to hardship all three of his daughters in 2012 plus a colt - this is going to save me some major money!


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## ohmt (Nov 15, 2011)

Picasso-if you hardship your mare, the foal will be AMHR eligible.

Also, anyone that hardships a mare or stallion into AMHR-any of their previous foals are then eligible for AMHR registration (as long as other parent is AMHR too) for just the registration fee. 3+ years it is $60 which is a great price and why I can get 8 mares into AMHR for just $780


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## squeaky (Nov 15, 2011)

I was at convention, and they did not mention this at all. She talked a lot of how they have been advertising in many different magazines (newest one is one based out of South Africa) and how they have been trying to get sponsorships from different tack companies and ADS and such. I don't not remember hearing that they were having a "hardship sale". This is probably why no one knew that it was happening.

If you want to ask questions about convention, I can try to answer. I wrote down most of the rules that passed and failed. Not too many of the rules passed this year for the minis (if I can recall correctly). I did not write down where the Area shows were, just when.

Amanda


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## Lewella (Nov 15, 2011)

Amanda,

The "Hardship Sale" was a Board action. It had been discussed at the Wednesday Board meeting before Convention and was tabled until Saturday afternoon Board meeting after Convention. Hopefully an e-blast will be going out soon so we can get the word out even more. The Customer Work Order already has a note on it that hardships are half price in 2012.





Lewella


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## supaspot (Nov 15, 2011)

I have some amha mares that Id love to register , can international members hardship ?


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## Lewella (Nov 15, 2011)

Yes they can! And we would LOVE to have our International members take advantage of this sale to bring their AMHA only horses into AMHR.



I'm not as familiar with the AMHA to AMHR hardship process as some here on the forum so I'll let one of them explain how it is done.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 15, 2011)

squeaky said:


> I was at convention, and they did not mention this at all. She talked a lot of how they have been advertising in many different magazines (newest one is one based out of South Africa) and how they have been trying to get sponsorships from different tack companies and ADS and such. I don't not remember hearing that they were having a "hardship sale". This is probably why no one knew that it was happening.
> 
> If you want to ask questions about convention, I can try to answer. I wrote down most of the rules that passed and failed. Not too many of the rules passed this year for the minis (if I can recall correctly). I did not write down where the Area shows were, just when.
> 
> Amanda


I was curious how the PMC proposals were voted, if they passed or not. There were 2 of them. Also was curious to see the voting on the one proposal where in halter class you have to show them with the lead in your hand?

The Hardshipping sale has been posted on Facebook as well.


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## squeaky (Nov 15, 2011)

Lewella - thanks for clearing that up. I thought someone had said that it was a breed promotion committee action, and I did not remember it from the meeting. I sat in on the BOD meeting, but left about 2 hours into it. Must have missed that part of the discussion. I did see that it had been posted on Facebook this morning and thought it was a good idea. Too bad I don't have any horses to hardship at the moment.

JMS - The lead rope in hand got to the point where the proposal was re-written so many times, and then everyone in the room could find a loophole in the rule. I believe it was decided that it would fall under the rule of "the Judge has the power to excuse any horse or exhibitor who's behaviors or ACTIONS are dangerous." (not quoting the rulebook exactly, but the wording is pretty similar to what I wrote.) The judges committee made sure to bring it up at the Clinic, and I believe they are going to make it aware to all judges.

As for the PMC rules, I do not have them in my notes for some reason. I remember them being discussed, but did not write them down. I want to say that they did not pass either one of them, but don't hold me to that information...

Amanda

Edited to make sure I had the correct information.


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## Tiny Hooves (Nov 15, 2011)

I had seen this on FB today, but wasn't for sure if it was true or not. I am so GLAD



that it is because I have a yearling stallion AMHA only that I want to get AMHR. Was planning on doing it next year 2012. So this is wonderful!!



YIPPEEEEEEEE!!!!!!!!!


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## SHANA (Nov 16, 2011)

That is good news for a lot of people, not me though since I have no AMHA only horses. Wish AMHA would do the same and cut their fees in half. I have a small mare whose sire is AMHA registered but her dam outgrew her AMHA papers. This mare due to her dam outgrowing her AMHA papers lost out on being AMHA registered as well as AMHR. To bad AMHA didn't allow AMHA horses who outgrow there papers to keep breeding stock papers so that there foals can still be registered AMHA and at 3 if still 34" and under be registered AMHA and if over 34" then be issued breeding stock papers. They do this with paints, if a paint is born solid it is registered as a breeding stock paint. Or AMHA could even change there height to 38" like AMHR so that any horse AMHR registered could be AMHA as well. They would make more money in the long run this way.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 16, 2011)

> anyone that hardships a mare or stallion into AMHR-any of their previous foals are then eligible for AMHR registration (as long as other parent is AMHR too) for just the registration fee.


I have a question that perhaps someone can answer.

I have a six year old mare, who`s sire (now deceased) was AMHA/AMHR, though her dam was AMHA only. If I now registered her dam with AMHR, and paid a late stallion report...could I afterwards register all of their past foals with AMHR, and not have to "hardship" them? (This might be a moot question, as that might be more expensive than simply taking advantage of the sale...but am curious to know anyways.)


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## HGFarm (Nov 16, 2011)

AMHR is awesome to do this! Kudos to the Board for their decision! It's really nice, bad economy or not, to see a registry DO something for the members, for as we all know, without the members, there would not be a registry.

My sentiments exactly on the other registry not being willing to budge- they are going to have to think outside the box to stay afloat and either attract new members or keep the current ones.


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## ohmt (Nov 16, 2011)

Suec-yes you can then late register her past foals with AMHR if you hardship her. That is what I am doing with my mares. To hardship and pay the late registration fee for a 3+ yr old mare is $160, but to late register her foals after she is hardshipped is $60 so it does save you quite a bit.


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## Little Wolf Ranch (Nov 16, 2011)

This is just simply awesome! Really wasn't looking forward to having to pay $400 + age appropriate registration fee for my newest addition, Love It. This means that I can get him hardshipped first thing next year instead of having to wait forever and save up! Woohoo!!!


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## mini horse mania (Nov 16, 2011)

oh i wish AMHA would do this!! One of my colts i am planning to use as a stallion is already R and WC. Id love to have him in A.....


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## LaVern (Nov 18, 2011)

Did they drop it for the ponies too?


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 18, 2011)

Yes they dropped it for AMHA and ASPC and I guess Fabella too.


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## LaVern (Nov 18, 2011)

What a joke. I have been living in such a Fairytale world for thirty years thinking that I was breeding something. Enough.


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## SampleMM (Nov 18, 2011)

It helps me out because I have a little filly that is only AMHA registered but in a reality............I so wish there was just one registry. It is such a pain in the butt doing paperwork and photos for multiple registries. It cost so much money to belong to both and keep up with all the paperwork fees but I know not many of you feel this way.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 18, 2011)

SampleMM said:


> It helps me out because I have a little filly that is only AMHA registered but in a reality............I so wish there was just one registry. It is such a pain in the butt doing paperwork and photos for multiple registries. It cost so much money to belong to both and keep up with all the paperwork fees but I know not many of you feel this way.


I totally understand. I dropped AMHA because I just can't afford to do both. I only have one A gelding who just doesn't show very much especially not in AMHA, but if AMHA decided to cut their hardship fees in half it may actually get me more involved but if not I I'll stick with AMHR.

Lavern I see your point, I don't see the problem with ASPC as they are already part of the registry and only 3 years olds and older can benefit from this, but I think this will make a market from AMHA horses and maybe people will become more involved with AMHR. I really honestly don't see the point in accepting Fabella's and I thought they stopped accepthing hardship from them but guess not. At least they aren't taking unregistered minis.


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## ohmt (Nov 18, 2011)

I think it is an amazing idea. They have not opened their doors to outside hardshipping, but have lowered their fees for a year to bring in more AMHA horses and shetlands. I think it is very smart, especially with so many more farms changing to primarily AMHR/ASPC.


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## LaVern (Nov 18, 2011)

I see the whole problem with the ASPC, they aren't part of the association, they are the association. They make the rules and they run the show and things are not going to change. To them the AMHR is nothing but a way to make some more money to support the Shetland Pony Club. Let any horse be a registered miniature for a buck. But don't let anyone hardship into the Shetland,because they are special. This was a decision by the board and who are they?

Like Kenny said, "You have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em." I'm folding. I'm done supporting the ASPC . I will take all I can from the AMHR stud books and go my own way.

I will send the stud reports in and my membership fee and reg. when it is necessary. But, no more money and no more sponsorships for stuff, to be sure the Congress has a nice home from me.

And I will advise other straight miniature people to do the same. These papers aren't worth the paper they are written on. Enough.


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## kaykay (Nov 18, 2011)

Lavern I totally get that you are upset. And a part of me understands. But if you feel that strongly then try to make a change. Get the AMHR studbook closed. Then the AMHR horses will also be "special" Because right now they are a height only registry not a breed.

I never agreed with Falabellas being able to hardship in and I never agreed that Shetlands should have to hardship to the very registry they created. But its out of my hands.

Heck it wasn't that many years ago any miniature horse could register AMHR. I still remember how upset people were when they closed it with only about 30 days notice.

For all any of us know they could close it a year from now. Who knows?

In this economy it was imo a smart decision to drop the fee. Its not like they weren't being hardshipped before the fee reduction. But for sure more will take advantage and hardship now and maybe they will get some members back.

And yes the assoc name as always been the American Shetland Pony Club. Why so many act like they didn't know this is astounding to me.



> to be sure the Congress has a nice home from me.


I know you are surely joking. This was the first year that Congress had real center ring decorations since I started ten plus years ago. And it only got those because they upped the fees to match Nationals.

Now I voted against Tulsa for Congress and I think going to Tulsa the expenses will explode. But that is how the member vote went so for at least a year we will be at Tulsa.

Before anyone yells about the money Congress loses; it was never meant to make money. If they wanted it to it would. Nationals even with 1500 horses lost money just a couple years ago. Havent seen the numbers from this year. But I have always been told the National shows were the payback to the members whether they made money or not.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 18, 2011)

I agree with Kay for the most part. I don't see why Fabellas should be allowed to be hardshipped in, but I'm sorry I think ASPC should still be hardshipped in. I think there will be a time soon AMHR will close its doors to AMHA and hopefully Fabella, but I think the doors will always remain open to ASPC. Do I see that as negative, no I don't. Ask me that 2 years ago or even last year I would have said heck yeah. This year I've really opened my eyes and accepted the miniature shetlands. They have really made the miniatures better and is more competitive. I still would love to see AMHR add some type of halter class for the I guess "foundation" built minis. I certaintly don't want to see the miniature horse to go away.

I see this sale benfiting more the AMHA horses than I do the shetlands. AMHA is closing its doors next year. People have been talking about switching over because of this. People are tired of having to pay for 2 registeres. By offering this sale we are opening the door to new people, even from the AMHA side, bringing in more revenue. That means more "straight" miniatures into the registry, and hopefully more will be showing.


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## LaVern (Nov 18, 2011)

I should not have used Congress as my example. It certainly is not the only thing that the miniatures have paid for for years.

I had a call from a director, I think to calm me down (I am calm, I don't give a hoot anymore). He asked what I wanted. I said it was easy. Recognition. I want it to say Certified AMHR Miniature Horse on the papers of all the Miniature Horses A and B that have a full pedigree of AMHR miniature breeding, on their papers starting in 2012.

That means for the foal to be Certified - the sire and dam must be AMHR - the grand parents must be AMHR - the great grandparents must be AMHR.

Example - my new stallion was hard shipped from AMHA, as his mother was not AMHR. So his kids and grand kids could never be Certified. His Great Grands kids could be. Four generations AMHR must be on the papers.

I don't know if I even want the Registry to close, as so many don't and who am I to tell others what to do. But I do feel that we who have stuck with this for so long and have tried to breed a type and done it within our registry at least deserve to have our horses recognized as something worthwhile and hopefully good.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 18, 2011)

So basiclly like foundation with the shetlands only with minis? I would be cool for that, I've been wanting that for some time now.


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## ahrobertspony (Nov 18, 2011)

I agree w/ JMS. I see the sale as bringing in more "outside" business. I think there will be more AMHA animals hardshipped than Shetlands and hopefully we'll pull in some new members or get some members to return with the offer. If you know anything about the drop in numbers over the last three years, you'll understand why it was time to make some pretty large incentive type offer. Do I think some Shetlands will benefit from this sale? Absolutely. However, all of us Shetland people aren't sitting on dozens & dozens of ponies that we are now going to rush out to hardship just because the fee is lower. Sure, it may speed up some hardshipping of a some ponies but I bet it won't be rash. Shoot, even if I know of someone who will hardship several ponies during the sale, it's not like the person is going to be scrounging up ponies to hardship... rather, the person already had the ponies measured & the paperwork done and was just planning to hardship as they could.

Of course, ponies still have to be 3 to hardship. So, this sale doesn't help anyone who might be starting to bring in some ponies to their "miniature" program but who went w/ young stock that won't be eligible for hardship for another 3 years.

I say ... better to legitimately hardship ... than just "throw away" some pony paperwork as some "miniature" programs did before.


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## LaVern (Nov 18, 2011)

One more thought, I guess I feel that the registry should be saying to all these people that want an AMHR horse - go to an established AMHR breeder and buy one, instead of letting them get one for 300 bucks. Instead of backing the breeders, they are stabbing us in the back. They are basically selling papers and establishing the value of our horses.


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## disneyhorse (Nov 18, 2011)

LaVern... I also see this business move as a positive one for ASPC/AMHR. It already has allowed hard shipping for a long while, although no longer grade animals. The price is just lower, mostly to take advantage of AMhA... And hopefully win business from there down the road. Obviously it's cheaper and easier to register foals from registered parents than go through the wait, hassle, and added expense of hard shipping.

I understand you'd like a "foundation seal" for the minis like the ponies have... That is a great idea. But don't attack the Shetlands because of it. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.


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## disneyhorse (Nov 18, 2011)

LaVern... I also see this business move as a positive one for ASPC/AMHR. It already has allowed hard shipping for a long while, although no longer grade animals. The price is just lower, mostly to take advantage of AMhA... And hopefully win business from there down the road. Obviously it's cheaper and easier to register foals from registered parents than go through the wait, hassle, and added expense of hard shipping.

I understand you'd like a "foundation seal" for the minis like the ponies have... That is a great idea. But don't attack the Shetlands because of it. You catch more flies with honey than vinegar.


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## LaVern (Nov 18, 2011)

I am not attacking the ASPC as much as they have attacked me. Man this was a sucker punch.

And I too see this as a VERY VERY VERY positive business move for the ASPC/AMHR, but not for me, an AMHR breeder. But hey what's new?

And not the word foundation seal for the miniatures. Straight -Certified- whatever, but our own word at least.

But it is never going to happen anyway, so who cares.

I don't honey coat anything.


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## Songcatcher (Nov 18, 2011)

I have been watching this thread from the beginning, and must say I have very mixed emotions about it.

 

First of all, let me say that I have NEVER had a complaint against AMHR as an organization or any of the business I have done with them. All of my horses are registered AMHA and AMHR except one exceptional mare that I bought this year that is AMHA only. My problem has been with Shetland breeders who get on this forum and promote the attitude that Shetlands are so superior to Minis and that if you want your horses to be able to compete that you just MUST introduce Shetland into your breeding program. Well, that is NOT what I want. I don't want Morgans, I don't want Walking Horses, I don't want Quarter Horses, and I don't want Shetlands. I want MINIATURES! So, with my need to cut expenses and with this prevailing attitude that you just must have Shetland in your program in order to be competitive, I dropped my AMHR membership in 2011. Why should I waste that money when so many of the R breeders have adopted the attitude that if it isn't Shetland, it just isn't any good? Why should AMHA MINIATURE breeders spend money hardshipping into AMHR to promote Shetlands? Seems to me like money down the drain. 






 

I've not totally made up my mind yet, but before I pay a membership fee, the $100 hardship fee, plus the $60 registration fee in order to hardship a mare, someone is going to have to convince me why it is worth it to spend so much money on a horse that so many ASPC/AMHR breeders are going to look down on.


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## disneyhorse (Nov 19, 2011)

I think a good horse is a good horse, regardless of papers. People get way too worked up about what other people think... When all that really matters is what you yourself likes.

I have to admit... If I am wanting a horse for potential breeding purposes... Especially a stallion... It really should be double registered. Either AMHA/amhr, or amhr/ASPC. However, I've seenAMAZING single registered horses... I don't think that any of these "Shetland breeders" would tell you that a high quality AMHR only horse is less of a horse than a poor quality double registered Shetland.

Honestly, when I went shopping for my next horse, I wanted either an amhr or ASPC registered horse. I ended up with an AHHS registered hackney pony! I am hoping to register him ASPR so I can stay with this pony club, but a good horse is a good horse! Papers are not what makes the horse, the breeders reputation, nor success in the show ring.


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## frostedpineminis (Nov 19, 2011)

I do not register under AMHR to promote that shetland is better than mini, I think that for me it is important to have my minis registered in AMHA and AMHR for 2 reasons. One being that if I have a foal that outgrows its AMHA papers it is still registered and has papers to follow it through its life for records, age, history ect and 2 being that where ever one of my foals go, they have more opportunity to show and use that mini if it has both AMHA and AMHR shows to choose from because by the sounds of it, different regions tend to be more one sided as per what organization that they show under, So I feel with double registered foals, I am giving them a better chance. just my opinion anyway


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## weerunner (Nov 19, 2011)

Just looking around in my area, I find that a double registered horse is worth slightly more and also if you have a double registered breeding animal and you are looking for a mate, you can look at all minis and choose the best one without having to worry about what it is registered in. That is the reason I want all mine double registered. I didn't know there would be controversy about this. I'm going to do all 4 of my AMHA broodmares as long as the bank account can handle it.


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## LaVern (Nov 19, 2011)

In todays miniature market you NEED those AMHR papers. You might want them double. Great, But we have worked so hard and done such a good job that if you don't have AMHR papers, you basically are very limited.So now that they are finally valuable and the AMHR breeder can finally say, Yes it was all worth while,* why start giving them away?* And making those papers worthless.

Why can't we get used to holding our heads up and be proud of what we have done? Maybe we area getting too uppidy and we must be put back in our place.


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## kaykay (Nov 19, 2011)

> My problem has been with Shetland breeders who get on this forum and promote the attitude that Shetlands are so superior to Minis and that if you want your horses to be able to compete that you just MUST introduce Shetland into your breeding program.


I have only seen a couple people post that and many of them were not "Shetland" breeders but miniature breeders that own ASPC/AMHR horses. I know I personally would never say that. Everyone should own and breed what they want.

I do think change can be made but I am the eternal optimist. For years I have seen people post that they want the AMHR studbook closed. But to date I have never seen a rule proposal submitted at convention to close it.



> And not the word foundation seal for the miniatures. Straight -Certified- whatever, but our own word at least. But it is never going to happen anyway, so who cares.


Submit a rule proposal that any AMHR registered miniature horse with 4 generations or AMHR only breeding get "Certified" on its papers. Or maybe a seal?

Kay


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## LaVern (Nov 19, 2011)

Kay Kay, If we put" AMHR Only" on the papers I'll have to go back into counseling. (Breathe deep, breathe) Had an email from someone with a good idea. AMHR Heritage Miniature Horse. Looked it up and means ancestry- pedigree. I thought that was a good one.


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## LaVern (Nov 19, 2011)

I don't think the people that wanted the hardship fee dropped, wrote a proposal,(maybe). I have been down that route before. What you have do is whine and cry and squeak and get to be good buddies of some director that other directors need a favor from. I won't play the political game, but I will whine on Little Beginnings.


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## kaprikorn (Nov 19, 2011)

Yippee !!! I had everything together to AMHR my 3 AMHA only mares but was looking at the $$ and sighed. . . now I can do them. . .one a month !!! What a nice Christmans present from AMHR !! Now everyone will be AHMA/AMHR !!


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## targetsmom (Nov 19, 2011)

I wonder how many of the minis that are going to be hardshipped into AMHR through this SALE (all it is, is a lowering of the price, right? Not a NEW RULE?) are ones who could have been AMHR registered except for a slip-up in paper work? I know the mare we plan to hardship was supposed to come with R papers, but reminders and pleading have done no good in 7 years. So being able to hardship her for $100 seems worth it. And I think the gelding might have had R papers too, as I am pretty sure at least the sire or dam - if not both - were R registered. And neither will be bred, so it isn't like we will be diluting AMHR blood somehow.

Why do I think it is worth it?

1) I can then show these minis in R shows, where I plan to show more this year anyway.

2) I can use these minis for the Amateur Excellence Award program; or I can get CREDIT now for using them, as they have been used all along.

3) Then ALL our minis - not just our breeding stock - will be triple registered (A/R/PtHA).


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## kaykay (Nov 19, 2011)

Lavern I suspect dropping the fees was a board action. To know who initiated it we would have to see the board minutes and I do not believe they are posted yet. Once those are published on the website you should be able to see what Director submitted it.

Probably this was done to get new members and to spread some good will in this tough economy. For sure I think they are trying to get AMHA members to come (back?) to AMHR.

I guess I still believe in the system. You submit a rule proposal to the AMHR committee. If it passes them, it goes to convention where any member can vote on it. If it passes there the board usually always approves it because it doesnt look good to squash a proposal members voted to pass.

Now if you do all of that and it doesnt pass then you can whine and vent LOL.

When I went to convention in 2009 there was a proposal to let unregistered geldings hardship in. I was vehemently opposed as I felt it was a slap in the face to every breeder that sells AMHR registered geldings. I also felt that our geldings sell low enough now so why cheapen it further. So I got up and gave my speech and voted no. It was defeated.

Like it or not this is how our association works. I like to think its more than politics but maybe I am just an idiot.

The bad thing is many of us cannot attend convention every year to have our voices heard but its surely worth going if you can make it.


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## Minimor (Nov 19, 2011)

> My problem has been with Shetland breeders who get on this forum and promote the attitude that Shetlands are so superior to Minis and that if you want your horses to be able to compete that you just MUST introduce Shetland into your breeding program. Well, that is NOT what I want. I don't want Morgans, I don't want Walking Horses, I don't want Quarter Horses, and I don't want Shetlands. I want MINIATURES! So, with my need to cut expenses and with this prevailing attitude that you just must have Shetland in your program in order to be competitive, I dropped my AMHR membership in 2011. Why should I waste that money when so many of the R breeders have adopted the attitude that if it isn't Shetland, it just isn't any good?


I haven't seen so many Shetland breeders saying that one needs Shetland breeding to be competitive--the ones I've heard saying that are mostly the AMHR Nationals EXHIBITORS, many of whom are not breeders at all. And, as Kay said, also the Miniature breeders who have turned their programs to the ASPC/AMHR horses.

So, if someone were going to propose a "AMHR Certified" seal for Minis that have 4 generations of AMHR registration....would that include those Minis that have been AMHR "forever" on their pedigrees but who also have ASPC registration? Not everyone threw away their ASPC papers when they moved their ponies into the newly formed AMHR--so does that make those ASPC/AMHR Minis less Mini than those that had their ASPC papers thrown away 5 generations ago? I suppose maybe if the ASPC papers no longer exist one can pretend that ones horses are not ponies?

I guess I don't see what a Certified seal really means in terms of value. A good horse is a good horse, no matter if it has an AMHR Certified seal or if it doesn't, no matter if it has ASPC papers or if it doesn't. Sometimes one cannot even guess if the horse is Mini or Shetland if one doesn't see the papers. I have two Minis here--no ASPC registered ponies in the pedigree for generations--that could easily pass for ponies. If I found pony papers to put on them and brought them out in the show ring as Shetlands no one would question it--no one would look at them and say NO WAY that is a pony! Likewise if I brought them out and showed them AMHR it's very likely people would ask if those are Shetlands. Both qualify for LaVern's "Certified" designation, but I don't see why they would ever need it. They are what they are & no seal or lack of a seal will change anything for them.


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## Songcatcher (Nov 19, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> I wonder how many of the minis that are going to be hardshipped into AMHR through this SALE (all it is, is a lowering of the price, right? Not a NEW RULE?) are ones who could have been AMHR registered except for a slip-up in paper work? I know the mare we plan to hardship was supposed to come with R papers, but reminders and pleading have done no good in 7 years. So being able to hardship her for $100 seems worth it. And I think the gelding might have had R papers too, as I am pretty sure at least the sire or dam - if not both - were R registered.


If I'm reading you right, you are asking if a horse that was already R registered but papers lost/not transfered can be hardshipped from its A papers??? The answer is "NO"! I tried that once. AMHR sent the papers back with an explanation that the horse was already registered. Luckily, the former owner signed an affidavit for me that the original papers were lost and signed a transfer. If pleading over 7 years has done you no good, I'm afraid you are out of luck.


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## targetsmom (Nov 19, 2011)

Thanks for the info Songcatcher... I guess I will be calling AMHR next week to find out what my options are.


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## LaVern (Nov 19, 2011)

Minimor, that sure would be my thinking. As soon as all the horses on the papers were reg. AMHR horses that horse becomes an AMHR Heritage Miniature. You can work for years and breed into it using all AMHR stock or buy one. But, you can't just hardship into it.


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## Minimor (Nov 19, 2011)

But what does it then get you? Do you think people are going to buy horses simply because they have a Heritage seal, or are they going to buy what they like regardless if the horse has the Heritage designation or not?

And I assume that there will be an extra fee for the office to research the pedigree and put the Heritage designation on the papers? (Unless the horse has both parents that are already Heritage designated, then the horse would automatically get the designation himself?)


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## LaVern (Nov 19, 2011)

It is not only what I get, but what other AMHR breeders and the AMHR horses get. Validation and the respect we deserve. It says you stuck to it and played it straight with in our own registry. I don't think would affect prices at all and it would not affect the shows.

Office price, it shouldn't cost anymore than checking stuff for a show or putting hall of fame or other stuff.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 19, 2011)

LaVern said:


> Kay Kay, If we put" AMHR Only" on the papers I'll have to go back into counseling. (Breathe deep, breathe) Had an email from someone with a good idea. AMHR Heritage Miniature Horse. Looked it up and means ancestry- pedigree. I thought that was a good one.


I like the sound of that. I think it would be a great idea, I don't know how it could affect the show ring, I would like to see this as a whole new divison. If the ASPC can have Foundation, why can't we? AMHR/ASPC horses have made such a huge impact we do need a different halter class. But I just don't know how it can affect the shows. Defintelly needs planning. I also don't think this can happen unless we close the registry. I just don't see the value of doing this without looking into the future. We just can't stick a seal on papers for any reason. Close the registry, try and become a breed, then ask for this and I can see it taking the miniature horses to a whole new level.

Those who feel so strongly against the ASPC movement with the miniatures get together and start a program. Get more members involved and try to close the registry. Thats the only way you can do it. I've tried to do this before trying to get a whole new division I received mix feelings but no one was willing to help me so I gave up and have now accepted the ASPC/AMHR horses. But I would still like to see a new divison for the minis.

As to why you should support AMHR, you don't have to. Heck I even was going to stop AMHR and go to AMHA, but you know what I took a deap breath and question myself. I enjoy showing in my club, the people are great, I enjoy my R minis, I don't care what papers they have, if I enjoy it I'll keep doing it. If you don't then go somewhere else. I'll agree you are limiting yourself, I will not buy AMHA only horses anymore. I'll buy better quality horses thats all, the breed has envolved better. If you want the "straight" miniatures they are out there, with no shetland blood and they are nice ones out there. There will always be a market for AMHR only horses.

Really all I would like to see and I don't see this as too much to ask is add a "foundation", "draft", "performance" or whatever you want to call it halter class for older style minis. If I'm honest with myself a whole new divison may be uncessary, but I really think a type halter class needs to be added.


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## kaykay (Nov 19, 2011)

> Those who feel so strongly against the ASPC movement with the miniatures get together and start a program. Get more members involved and try to close the registry. Thats the only way you can do it. I've tried to do this before trying to get a whole new division I received mix feelings but no one was willing to help me so I gave up and have now accepted the ASPC/AMHR horses. But I would still like to see a new divison for the minis.


It doesnt have to be "against" ASPC. I have always been in favor or a (for lack of a better word) Foundation division for the minis.

But everyone can talk about it and wish for it but until someone takes the time to write it up and present it at convention it will go no where. I am not passionate enough about it to tackle it but surely someone here is?

Everything has to start somewhere. People could even pick the brains of the originators of the foundation Shetland division to get some tips.

But remember there will still be issues as we have in the foundation shetlands. Nothing is perfect for sure and nothing will ever answer all the problems.


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## Jacki (Nov 19, 2011)

kaykay said:


> Kay wrote in part...
> 
> When I went to convention in 2009 there was a proposal to let unregistered geldings hardship in. I was vehemently opposed as I felt it was a slap in the face to every breeder that sells AMHR registered geldings. I also felt that our geldings sell low enough now so why cheapen it further. So I got up and gave my speech and voted no. It was defeated.


Kay touches on the reason I am not pleased with the 50% Off Sale on Hardshiping, I believe it was a short sided decision by the BOD, although it may bring in income now it will reduce income later. For every ASPC pony or AMHA horse that comes in to AMHR at the reduced fee it reduces the number that could or would have come in at some point at the full fee. So, it will take twice as many horses to raise the same amount of income. Perphaps they are banking on the fact that half price registrations (hardships) will produce residual income increases when their get are registered later on. Although this is true I don't believe this potential income later is worth the trade-off now.

The potential increase in AMHR registered horses now and their get later also has the effect of increasing supply, not a good move when prices are as depressed as they currently are. So those of us trying to sell AMHR registered horses could also have to deal with the flush of new competition in an already down market. If I was a shetland pony breeder or an AMHA breeder I may feel differently, I'd jump at the chance to take advantage of this sale. As a breeder of primarily AMHR registered miniature horses I see only an increase in supply coming my way.

I might feel differently about this had there been some discussion with the membership, had the BOD presented their thoughts we could have discussed it, considered others points of view, and then been more willing to accept the decision. I understand that the BOD has the right to adjust prices I just think this decision affects more than the price we pay it affects supply and the tone of what horses will be in the show ring. Had they gathered input from members it may have affected their decision.

Jacki Loomis

[email protected]


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## LaVern (Nov 19, 2011)

You guys are making this too hard. I'm not asking for classes or anything to change. Just call the 4 genrers. something.


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## Minimor (Nov 19, 2011)

In my view if there is going to be some sort of "certification" on the papers then there will need to be a charge for it. Foundation Shetlands have to have a $10 fee paid to get their seal if they don't have 2 Foundation parents, and I don't feel that $10 is an unreasonable fee for any sort of Miniature seal either.



> If you want the "straight" miniatures they are out there, with no shetland blood


Really? Show me a Miniature that has "no Shetland blood" in it!! There may be no ASPC registered ponies on the pedigree but that doesn't mean that the horse has no Shetland blood!


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## Minimor (Nov 19, 2011)

> It is not only what I get, but what other AMHR breeders and the AMHR horses get. Validation and the respect we deserve. It says you stuck to it and played it straight with in our own registry. I don't think would affect prices at all and it would not affect the shows.


I believe that 'validation' and 'respect' come from your horses themselves. If people see your animals and like them and you have the reputation of having good, or even great, horses THAT is your validation. Reputation is built on quality of the animals and integrity of the breeder. No seal on the papers can or will give validation to a breeding program if the quality isn't there, and if the quality is there....the seal on the papers isn't needed.

If the purpose of the seal is to enable the horse to show in a separate division, that is another mattter.

For anyone that feels that hardshipping--and especially this hardshipping sale--is going to harm their breeding program or their sales, I don't really see that being the case. In all honesty, what I see harming sales or a breeding program the most is negativity, even bitterness, from the breeder. Negativity is a HUGE turn-off to many people.


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## Reble (Nov 19, 2011)

I am not sure, but is the seal not sort of going to be the same as DNA

Which I still believe will happen one day with AMHR


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## LaVern (Nov 19, 2011)

Why does it bug you to give us a name Minimor? What's it to ya? I'd pay the ten bucks, but then we should charge for putting Hall Of Fame on too and Foundation and Classic and Modern?


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## Minimor (Nov 19, 2011)

> Why does it bug you to give us a name Minimor? What's it to ya? I'd pay the ten bucks, but then we should charge for putting Hall Of Fame on too and Foundation and Classic and Modern?


It doesn't bug me in the least to give you a name....I just don't see why that name is so important when there is already a name...AMHR. It does boggle my mind that some apparently believe that without a special name to validate themselves their breeding program isn't worth anything. Please note that I am not saying any breeding program is worth nothing without some sort of seal--that is not what I believe at all! Sorry to say, though, but that is the way you are coming across in this thread!

I just paid $10 to get a Foundation seal on my Ziggy and as I see it a validation seal in any other division, AMHR included, should have to pay the same fee.

I'm not sure what HOF has to do with anything--HOF is a completely different kettle of fish from any Foundation or Heritage seal....HOF is something that is given to anyone that wins the right number of points, it's not something anyone asks for. By all means if you feel that members should pay to win a HOF then do put that into a rule proposal--but don't forget that if you are going to apply it to Classics, Foundations and Moderns then it would almost certainly apply to AMHR as well. That would probably be a very good money maker for the club.


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## kaykay (Nov 19, 2011)

> Why does it bug you to give us a name Minimor? What's it to ya? I'd pay the ten bucks, but then we should charge for putting Hall Of Fame on too and Foundation and Classic and Modern?


Do you mean putting HOF on the papers? A foundation seal is 10.00 if the pony is not born with the seal. This covers the office researching and verifying the pedigree and reprinting the paper. Although rumor has it no new seals will be issued in the near future.

Not sure what the comment on classic and foundation means?



> The potential increase in AMHR registered horses now and their get later also has the effect of increasing supply, not a good move when prices are as depressed as they currently are. So those of us trying to sell AMHR registered horses could also have to deal with the flush of new competition in an already down market. If I was a shetland pony breeder or an AMHA breeder I may feel differently, I'd jump at the chance to take advantage of this sale. As a breeder of primarily AMHR registered miniature horses I see only an increase in supply coming my way.


Jacki there probably will not be a ton of Shetlands that get to take advantage of this sale since they have to 3 years old to hardship. Why they have to be 3 and AMHA horses can be any age is beyond me.

But I do totally understand what you are saying.

I have always been in favor of closing the AMHR studbook. I also keep wondering if they will when AMHA closes theirs. I also wonder if the sale is because AMHA closes theirs in one year. But then I thought surely AMHA would rescind that but maybe not?

ASPC/AMHR membership has gone down a lot the last 3 years so mainly I think this was to get members etc.

Diane all of the Falabella's I have known already had AMHR papers so I just never understood it. Maybe there are way more out there than I know that dont have AMHR papers?


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## Sandee (Nov 19, 2011)

Ok so I don't breed but for what it's worth, my opinion is that I want a horse that has good temprament, good conformation, and lots of action. Now I don't care what it's papers say personally but I LIKE showing in AMHR so I need it to have those papers. ASPC is all right for showing but I perfer AMHR. If you can breed this "perfect" horse without using Shetland blood - fine, do it. But this is what I look for, what I want, and all I'd buy right now. It's that simple.

No one says you NEED Shetland blood but most breeders are trying to "fill a market need". This is what a big share of "the market" is looking for right now. I think ASPC did this not to get Shetlands registered in AMHR necessarily but to broaden their base and help out some of the people who for $$ reasons might not otherwise register.


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## Magic (Nov 19, 2011)

Kaykay said

"Jacki there probably will not be a ton of Shetlands that get to take advantage of this sale since they have to 3 years old to hardship. Why they have to be 3 and AMHA horses can be any age is beyond me. "

I think that the registry is figuring that an AMHA horse of any age is not very likely to go over the height limit of 38", but that a shetland very well could, so that is likely the reasoning behind having shetlands be at least three years old to be registered AMHR, to make sure that they don't go over the height requirement.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 20, 2011)

LaVern said:


> You guys are making this too hard. I'm not asking for classes or anything to change. Just call the 4 genrers. something.


Then what is your purpose on adding a seal? What would be a advantage of having a seal vs any hardshipped mini or mini shetland. You can call your minis whatever you want to call them but having a seal on their just because I don't see the huge selling point of that. If I was shopping for just an AMHR only mini I won't be looking for one that has that special seal. This was my oringinal point to begin with thats all.

Minimor yes I understand they come from the shetlands. So perhaps we are doing this backwards and we should make all AMHR/ASPC ponies show in their "foundation" divison since the minis originally came from them.

BUT, AMHR is only a height breed. So adding divisons would not benefit the registry. Sorry JMO after thinking about it. If anything divide the halter classes by type. AMHR would be taken more seriously if it was closed. But at this time I think it would be a mistake.


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## minifreishorsefarm (Nov 20, 2011)

Songcatcher said:


> I have been watching this thread from the beginning, and must say I have very mixed emotions about it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. I dont like the Shetland look for my breeding program either. I think there are a lot of pretty Shetland horses out there, just not what I want for my program. I dont like the long snakey neck look that is popular either. I would never buy any AMHR horse with direct Shetland in their pedigree mainly because I dont want horses that are over 35" and most Shetland will be taller.

I would really like the AMHA to cut the hardship fee as well. I have a few mares here that are under 34" and it would be nice to have them double registered especially since I now have a future stallion that is A & R registered both.

I dont know why everyone is wanting to make all their AMHR horses to look like Shetlands, if you want the Shetland look, buy a Shetland





Marsha


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## joylee123 (Nov 20, 2011)

LaVern said:


> In todays miniature market you NEED those AMHR papers. You might want them double. Great, But we have worked so hard and done such a good job that if you don't have AMHR papers, you basically are very limited.So now that they are finally valuable and the AMHR breeder can finally say, Yes it was all worth while,* why start giving them away?* And making those papers worthless.
> 
> Why can't we get used to holding our heads up and be proud of what we have done? Maybe we area getting too uppidy and we must be put back in our place.


Don't see how adding AMHA horses makes AMHR papers worthless


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## joylee123 (Nov 20, 2011)

LaVern said:


> I see the whole problem with the ASPC, they aren't part of the association, they are the association. They make the rules and they run the show and things are not going to change. To them the AMHR is nothing but a way to make some more money to support the Shetland Pony Club. Let any horse be a registered miniature for a buck. But don't let anyone hardship into the Shetland,because they are special. This was a decision by the board and who are they?
> 
> Like Kenny said, "You have to know when to hold em and know when to fold em." I'm folding. I'm done supporting the ASPC . I will take all I can from the AMHR stud books and go my own way.
> 
> ...


Shetland is a breed. Miniature is a height.


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## vvf (Nov 20, 2011)

joylee123 said:


> Don't see how adding AMHA horses makes AMHR papers worthless


exactly.... a few years ago I bought an amha ONLY stallion, and if I had not been able to hardship this stallion into AMHR... I would not have bought him.. (just wish they had been running the hardship "sale" then LOL) AMHR means that much to me.

I like how AMHR has their hardship set up... you can't hardship horses that are "unknown" they must come from AMHA or Shetlands, and of course if Shetlands, be 3 or older and within height requirements.


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## Riverrose28 (Nov 20, 2011)

Guess I'll add my 2 cents, hopefully you can understand what I'm trying to say. I can understand were LaVern/Renee is coming from. As a long standing breeder of straight up miniature horses there has been a trend in recent years to add ASPC to the minis and that is what is winning in the show ring, especially at Nationals. And yes, as Songcatcher said if you go in the ring with a straight up miniature you usually get the gate, in halter, not so in performance, and then you wonder why you didn't get on the band wagon if you want to show. Seems like the AMHR is a second class horse to the ASPC/AMHR horse and yes it is frustrating especially to our youth and ametuers. I love the AMHR horses my favorites are the "B"'s around 35 to 36"s, but although we do well at the local level we don't do so well at the National level, in halter, against the ASPC/AMHR horses, I've stated this before. I think the straight up minis or foundation minis need their own class.

I also think that adding some AMHA horses to the registry will help those of us with the straight up AMHR minis. Most of mine are already double registered but I do have two mares that are AMHA only that I would take advantage of the reduced fee to get them into AMHR. The reason I think the AMHA horse owners will help is that their horses are more of the straight up minis and the more that show the better.


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## LaVern (Nov 20, 2011)

I didn't realize that it cost 10 bucks to put the foundation seal on. Of course we should have to pay that too, then. But if you get a seal why can't I have one. And I suppose if you didn't want the seal of Heritage you wouldn't have to have it put on. I would. Do the moderns and the classics have to pay to have that written too?

The Show Pony got a name and the Sport Horse got a name. And they are just grades too, why would anyone care if a 4 generation miniature got a name other than A's -B's - Overs -Unders or Only's.


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## joylee123 (Nov 20, 2011)

As far as adding AMHA horses to AMHR through the "Hardship sale" I don't see how, as someone mentioned, it's going to ruin AMHR or make AMHR paperwork worthless. People have and are going to continue to hardship AMHA registered horses into AMHR as long as the registry is open to hardshipping, making it a bit more affordable for a year,isn't going to make much difference in the long run.

As far as Shetland infusion;

I normally keep my opinions to myself but I really don't wish to see AMHA or AMHR lose what we have been working so hard for over the years.I think it's a shame seeing what is happening. I'm not putting down Shetlands by any means. I have seen some that are totally breathtakingly beautiful, just stunning in their own right. They are just not what I want the future of the American Miniature Horse to be. It's taken too long to get where we are today to go backward. That being said, I think closing the AMHA registry will help keep the newly infused Shetland influence to a minimum in that registry.

Has anyone thought to propose a Miniature Shetland Division? Keep AMHR AMHR and let the AMHR/ASPC cross have their own Miniature Shetland Registry or 1/2 Shetland Miniature Registry? or something to that effect?

I understand AMHA and AMHR are Height registries, just wish the miniature Shetlands had their own division to be registered into.

Joy


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## LaVern (Nov 20, 2011)

I know I am coming a cross as being mad at the Shetland Ponies, and I am not. I no longer even want to see the Registry closed to them. I am mad at the directors for doing something this important late at night and sort of secretive. I don't think that they intentionally thought of hurting anyone. They just don't think. They can't even phantom that anyone would be just a AMHR breeder .After all these years they still don't even consider how things will affect us. Give the AMHA people a break and kick the AMHR breeder in the ---.

I also have a suspicion that some of this came from AMHA overseas stuff. I guess we have a couple people handling that, maybe they felt sorry for the poor people that spent 30 grand on a horse and now it went over and so they need us to give them a break.

I have to wonder why if they can spend the money I have heard of on buying them and shipping them over, they should need a break from AMHR? I do know of some big AMHA farms that up until the last few years, said no way would they spend the money. Maybe it some of their horses.

The directors should have told them to go to a AMHR breeder in the US or Canada and buy one instead of practically giving them one. Maybe it is part of the Free Trade Agreement, I'll shut up now.


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## joylee123 (Nov 20, 2011)

> I don't think that they intentionally thought of hurting anyone. They just don't think. They can't even phantom that anyone would be just a AMHR breeder .After all these years they still don't even consider how things will affect us. Give the AMHA people a break and kick the AMHR breeder in the ---.


I guess I just don't understand what you are trying to say. How does allowing a reduced hardshipping fee for a year affect you as a breeder? And how does it kick the AMHR breeder in the ---

Just trying to understand...





Joy


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## disneyhorse (Nov 20, 2011)

LaVern said:


> I didn't realize that it cost 10 bucks to put the foundation seal on. Of course we should have to pay that too, then. But if you get a seal why can't I have one. And I suppose if you didn't want the seal of Heritage you wouldn't have to have it put on. I would. Do the moderns and the classics have to pay to have that written too?
> 
> The Show Pony got a name and the Sport Horse got a name. And they are just grades too, why would anyone care if a 4 generation miniature got a name other than A's -B's - Overs -Unders or Only's.


Hey LaVern...

The Foundations are the only ones who have to pay to get the "Foundation Seal" on the papers, it is $10. However, to SHOW as a Foundation, the ponies ALSO have to be Foundation "type" (slightly heavier bone) AND measure 42" or under instead of 46" which is the maximum for all the other Shetland divisions.

Moderns and Classics do not have to get any sort of validation... depending on what body type and movement they are (some can be borderline) is what the exhibitor chooses to show them in. You actually could Hall of Fame your pony as BOTH a Classic AND a Modern, depending on how to fit and shoe the pony, it's been done before. This is why some people who show Shetlands are trying to explain that it is VERY hard to just show a horse by "type" because it can depend on the training as well as the area. You see this sort of "grey area" in driving too... some horses can show as a Pleasure driving horse locally, but when they get to Nationals they bump their horse down to Country which is not as extreme. You just can't cross enter (as a mini or a Shetland in halter or driving) at the SAME SHOW.

Secondly,

The "Show Pony" (ASPR pony) is kind of a "grade pony" you could say. For $25 you can get papers on a Hackney, a Shetland, or a cross of them. Pretty much just allows your taller ponies to show at the shows, and also encourages "Hackney people" to bring their ponies over to ASPC/AMHR and show at the shows. Personally, I think $25 to get a set of papers on a horse is way too good of a deal! I just bought a Hackney pony gelding(the one in my avatar) that I am going to happily pay the $25 for his ASPR papers!

Think about it this way... at this time I don't have an ASPC or AMHR registered horse... but being able to have the option of showing my pony with the ASPC/AMHR brings my business to them where otherwise I might have nothing to do with them. This correlates to bringing AMHA horses over... the more publicity the better... maybe if I'm showing my Hackney pony as an ASPR and I'm going to the ASPC/AMHR shows, I'll want to expand my show string to show in more classes?

Anyway, just wanted to share some more information with you. I think if you continue to educate yourself to the other nuances of the Registry, it might help your cause.

Andrea


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## LaVern (Nov 20, 2011)

I think you are probably right about becoming more knowledgeable of all the rules within all the different areas, if I were to stay with it, but the unfairness has gotten to be more than I can stand. I wish I could meet a young smart person that I could give the whole works to if they would start a new registry and new breed that was pedigree and look. One simple rule. Honest paper work.

How does it affect me as breeder? Guess a Big Sign Should go up. Lucky Hart Sale. $100.00 ahead for AMHR registered horses because that is all the registry says it takes to get one.


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## Minimor (Nov 20, 2011)

I think someone doesn't understand the European situation too well. At least your version of the AMHR situation in Europe is very different from the one I've heard from different people!

I don't believe that this is going to really do much over there - from what I have been told most of those horses already have AMHR papers and our BOD needs to find a way to entice them to TRANSFER the darn things and then register the then eligible foals. If this sale was all about helping people out in Europe it would be a half price transfer, perm, and late stallion report sale because that's what would help them in Europe!

The people this sale will help the most are AMHR members who have a couple AMHA individuals and who want to make their herd completely AMHR registered.


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## LaVern (Nov 20, 2011)

Do you have a lot of dealing with European clients? I must admit I have never sold to one. A lot of people contact me, but I always say that my good ones are AMHR 36 inchers. Someone is not very smart.


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## Minimor (Nov 20, 2011)

No, I don't have dealings with European clients, but I know people in Europe & talk to people in Europe and I know people who have sold to Europe. I don't have to have dealings with anyone there to be interested in learning things about the horses they buy and the paperwork issues they have--when one pays attention and listens with an open mind and a genuine interest in learning about things, one learns a lot.


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## chandab (Nov 20, 2011)

LaVern said:


> How does it affect me as breeder? Guess a Big Sign Should go up. Lucky Hart Sale. $100.00 ahead for AMHR registered horses because that is all the registry says it takes to get one.


Let me know when you start that sale, at that price I might be able to convince my husband I need a few more minis.




Love my George daughter and my Robby daughter.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 20, 2011)

> As far as adding AMHA horses to AMHR through the "Hardship sale" I don't see how, as someone mentioned, it's going to ruin AMHR or make AMHR paperwork worthless. People have and are going to continue to hardship AMHA registered horses into AMHR as long as the registry is open to hardshipping, making it a bit more affordable for a year,isn't going to make much difference in the long run.


Exactly...and I think it a little melodramatic to go on about how this will make the AMHR horses only worth $100 bucks.



Seriously, if you think about it, the AMHA and AMHR are really the same horses anyways...good grief...where do you think the base of the AMHA horses came from to begin with? Personally, I think it wasn't such a smart thing to do...starting another organization for the "same" horses, but it was done...and I am not about to get my knickers in a knot because someone prefers one over the other. I belonged to both, bred both...prefer the big "A"s to mid "B's" myself, but don't knock someone for breeding the horses they want to unless they are conformationally unsuited for breeding; something that happens far-far too much with the miniature breed, IMO.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 20, 2011)

I just don't really get this whole argument saying now AMHR only horses are worthless and can't sell them. AMHR is not accepting unregistered horses into the registry. If they were I would be throwing a screaming fit. I thought we wanted AMHR to have new members, I bet this sale will help do that. It will still be cheaper in the long run to buy a already registered AMHR horse.

The only way to stop hardshipping is by closing the registry, it will also limit the shetlands coming in as well. So get a petition going, get member signatures and give it to the BOD.


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## LaVern (Nov 20, 2011)

When those papers finally became VERY VERY VERY Valuable for us, they dropped the price on them. It is as simple as that. I give up.

I know lots of smart people too, guess it just doesn't rub off on me.


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## joylee123 (Nov 20, 2011)

LaVern said:


> I think you are probably right about becoming more knowledgeable of all the rules within all the different areas, if I were to stay with it, but the unfairness has gotten to be more than I can stand. I wish I could meet a young smart person that I could give the whole works to if they would start a new registry and new breed that was pedigree and look. One simple rule. Honest paper work.
> 
> How does it affect me as breeder? Guess a Big Sign Should go up. Lucky Hart Sale. $100.00 ahead for AMHR registered horses because that is all the registry says it takes to get one.


No need to be rude. I was honestly asking you to explain your point of view. I was not being snotty I was trying to understand. Never mind, I guess it's not that important.





Joy


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## LaVern (Nov 21, 2011)

Oh, I am so sorry for using those big letters. I just hate that. It does seem so rude. I just get crazy, Again, I apologize.


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## joylee123 (Nov 21, 2011)

LaVern said:


> Oh, I am so sorry for using those big letters. I just hate that. It does seem so rude. I just get crazy, Again, I apologize.


No worries

Joy


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## kaykay (Nov 21, 2011)

Lavern

Like I said on my first post, I totally get your frustration and understand it. And I think Jacki made good points too. It is frustrating to spend years building an AMHR herd and then watch people hardship in at any price

The ultimate solution is to close the AMHR studbook completely. I was hoping maybe that is the ultimate goal with this "sale" but I could be dead wrong.

I cant imagine that if AMHA closes theirs we would still accept AMHA hardships. But again I could be wrong.



> The Foundations are the only ones who have to pay to get the "Foundation Seal" on the papers, it is $10. However, to SHOW as a Foundation, the ponies ALSO have to be Foundation "type" (slightly heavier bone) AND measure 42" or under instead of 46" which is the maximum for all the other Shetland divisions.


Just to be clear--- a pony born to two foundation parents that already have a seal -- automatically get the foundation seal and there is no fee. If people are sitting on ones that qualify and dont have the seal I highly recommend getting it soon as like I said they will probably stop issuing new seals soon.


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## Minimor (Nov 21, 2011)

> When those papers finally became VERY VERY VERY Valuable for us, they dropped the price on them. It is as simple as that. I give up.


I have to ask....how did those papers become VERY VERY VERY valuable all of a sudden?
Since you are complaining that AMHR is now telling "us" that AMHR horses are worth only $100 since that is what it costs to get one (your words)--and actually I guess that would be mares and geldings, because stallions cost $200 to get papers on in 2012 then it would seem to me that currently AMHR horses must be worth $200 (or $400 in the case of stallions), because that is what it costs to get one.

So....you are saying that $200/$400 makes a horse very valuable, but $100/$200 makes them worthless?


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## sdmini (Nov 21, 2011)

I kept my mouth closed when I seen this the first time around as I know it's not the popular thought here.

The hardship "sale" is a AMHR stimulus, not per say a AMHR breeder stimulus. Comparatively AMHR is cheap to hardship into, I have hardshipped into AMHR as I felt it added value to the horse and resulting foals. Now to offer a deal to those that didn't deem it worth while enough to do it at $200 seems a bit of a slap in the face to those that have supported AMHR all along. Granted that statement will ruffle feathers but this incentive wasn't geared towards those that were going to do it but more towards those that now say, "what the heck, it's cheap enough". I have no idea how many horses are hardshipped a year in to AMHR but lets pick 500 so now AMHR has to get 1000 just to maintain the same income. Nothing has changed to increase demand but we've increased the supply. Next year there will be foal registrations off of these hardships so that will be an added perk for the registry and 500 or so more foals on the market.

Personally I don't see this as a drawing card for AMHA breeders. Sure there will be some but most of the AMHA breeders that wanted AMHR horses already have them and with the push for ASPC/AMHR horses in the ring I don't see many spending the $100, but that's just my opinion.


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## Minimor (Nov 21, 2011)

I believe that in the last year of "hardshipping" before the fees were raised to the current levels of $200 and $400--that is, when you paid only $50 to hardship an AMHR horse in--there were 2500 horses hardshipped in.

I haven't heard numbers for years since then, but I would imagine they dropped significantly once the fees took a big jump.

The BOD is no doubt hoping that this "sale" will once again bring some bigger numbers into AMHR--bigger numbers mean more money, not just on the hardshipping fees themselves....more AMHR registered horses mean more foal registrations, more transfers, more temp to perm fees. It's good business for AMHR.

All along people scream that ASPC/AMHR should be run like a business, and then as soon as it does get run like a business some people get their panties in a bunch because of it.

Any business that runs a sale on anything knows that they make less money on individual sales and that they must therefore sell more of the sale items--and generally sales do bring in more people and cause those people to buy more items....and guess what? Many of those people are REGULAR CUSTOMERS and yes, they may very well come into the store and buy something that they wouldn't ordinarily have bought just because it is now on sale. They go away saying I really like that store, it's my favorite store and now with this sale I feel they have given something back to me, one of their regular customers.

Yes, I know there are regular AMHR supporters who will be taking advantage of this hardshipping sale. They are regular AMHR members who spend a lot of money on registrations, transfers and temp to perm applications each and every year. They have even hardshipped in some AMHA horses here & there. But, they currently have some AMHA horses that they haven't hardshpped, and weren't planning to hardship just because the money just wasn't available for hardship fees...in some cases they were going to leave the horses AMHA only and in other cases they were going to sell those horses as AMHA only just so that they would then be "all AMHR". Now with the lower fees they are planning to get the AMHR papers on those horses after all--so how is that not a win-win situation? The registry gets some money it wouldn't otherwise have gotten and the AMHR member gets the AMHR papers he wouldn't have had otherwise.


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## LaVern (Nov 21, 2011)

Me Again, I think if they had said, "Do it now, as next year it is going to go up 100.00", would have been better business move. The papers are Very Valuable because so many have seen the light, and love showing and being with other AMHR people, Oh it is fun. If you don't have the papers you can't do it. I am not saying that one is better than the other, but AMHR is where the action is, at least up here.


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## HGFarm (Nov 21, 2011)

AMHR, just like AMHA and other Mini registries, are a height breed only. I have seen some really nice horses over the years with no pedigrees on the papers- didnt make them any less of a nice horse. I dont see that Mini breeders/owners need to have Shetland to compete. If I wanted a Shetland, I would buy one.

I've had horses over the years of other breeds that had no pedigree to trace really, that out performed and out worked horses with papers any day, so I guess it is not that important to me. I judge a horse as an individual and if a registry is willing to give that horse some type of paper work because they meet the qualifications of the breed (height in this case) then I think that is nice and a plus for the owner of that horse in the future.


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## Magic (Nov 21, 2011)

The way I see this sale for me personally is -- every horse on my place is registered AMHR, so since I bought an AMHA-only mare (couldn't resist this one) this helps me in registering her AMHR as all the rest of my horses are. I have AMHA horses too, but a lot of my horses are the "B size", I love leggy horses and I love to drive, and so the B's are a love of mine.

The way I see this sale as a benefit to AMHR is -- there are surely plenty of people out there who, as someone else mentioned, have AMHA-only registered horses and weren't planning on registering them with AMHR, but now with the sale, hey, why not? There are a lot of people like me who show only AMHR for the most part and the AMHR registration is a big draw, or a must-have. And, those people who may not currently be AMHR members will have to sign up in order to get that paperwork done. Maybe they've got other AMHR paperwork that also could be done while they're members (again, or for the first time). And maybe they'll remain as members. Additional income for the registry. Times are tough right now as we all know, and this sale should help out both members and the registry.

I personally don't see this as a "cheapening" of my AMHR registered horses, I see it as bringing in more horses to my preferred registry, and I don't see anything wrong with that.


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## ahrobertspony (Nov 21, 2011)

Realized I was learning a lot as I read back through this thread. I'm going to summarize what I've been learning. However, first, perhaps some might find some quick numbers interesting.

From this thread ....

1) Not a single "Shetland" person has come on here promoting you need a Shetland to win in AMHR

2) Not a single "Shetland" person has come on here noting they have dozens of critters to hardship into AMHR now.

3) Nearly 20 "miniature" people have noted they are glad to see this is as they have numerous "straight" miniatures to hardship. I stopped counting the exact number of animals when it it neared 3 dozen ... and that was well before I stopped counting the number of breeders.

4) Exactly ONE person who does Miniatures and is interested in double-registered ASPC/AMHR has specifically referred to going out to find some ASPC ponies to hardship. (To that I say, good luck. Personally, from experience, I am not as convinced they are as plentiful as some say.)

5) Although nearly 20 miniature people noted that they had "A" horses to hardship, only one person here has noted they plan to use the sale on an ASPC pony. Of course, that one example can't possible hurt a breeding program as the pony noted was a gelding.

I hadn't really kept up with this thread, but I am glad I read back through it quickly. I learned some amazing things!

From this discussion, I have learned a few things...

First, some papers are apparently valuable. I guess that explains why a "miniature horse" breeder might lose/burn/disregard Shetland papers on ponies that were added to their "miniature" program over the years. Apparently the miniature papers (whether the horse was double registered and had two sets of papers OR in instances where the Shetland papers were "burned" and miniature papers were just magically given to a once-papered pony), are all that matters.

Second, only some programs/preferences should be given consideration. What might be a benefit to others isn't as important. Only some people deserve to have rights or their ideas of what the business should be should be catered to.

Third, there are millions of ponies out there waiting to be hardshipped and doing so is going to impact some breeders. Wow, didn't know there were so many little ponies out there. I get calls all the time from "miniature horse" breeders looking, looking, looking, looking for my kind of pony in Miniature size. Funny thing, those folks can't find them as easily as they like. Obviously, I don't have a bunch to hardship. With the exception of one person, none of my "pony" friends are sitting on great big bunches of ponies to hardship ... and even that person with a few only has a few ... not outlandish numbers. Wish I had more... or, any at all! First, so I could take advantage of the sale. But, more importantly, so I could actually help all of the miniature horse folks who contact me ... contact me ... NOT that I go looking for. So, I hope all of those folks with so very, very, very, very many ponies to hardship will get it done and start marketing. Then, I will have some place to point those miniature breeders when they call me. I sure don't know where to tell them to go now.

Fourth, although the majority of the people here who have posted about being being thankful for this sale have AMHA horses and are more "miniature" focused, this is all still some sort of dastardly plot by the evil pony-owning board members. The fact that business is down is of no concern. The fact that some portions of registry business has been dropping steadily for several years is of no concern. Thankfully, at least some portions of the business have been holding beautifully steady for dozens & dozens of years. I don't see any incentives being given to those long-termers.

Fifth, our rulebook is clearly too complicated. Many people clearly don't have a good concept of the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR/NSPR's entire business.


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## ahrobertspony (Nov 21, 2011)

Oh ... and a helpful point of history...

Interested in a foundation or heritage division for Miniatures? GREAT! I hope you actually get up and do something about it. If no one does, then I guess the talk was just lip service and no one was really serious. Several have referenced the ASPC's Foundation division in this thread. The pony Foundation division is not that old; it was passed early in the 2000s. Therefore, I would HOPE that some of you might actually remember how it came to be, but I doubt it. The board didn't just magically put it into place and say "poof, hear ya go." An individual worked diligently to lay the ground work. Then, a committee oversaw its creation. It was a LOT of work and it happened over months and months. It was more than just talk. A plan was made, it was worked on over time and detailed rules/regulations were agreed upon in committee. Then ... and ONLY then ... was the ASPC's Foundation option presented.

If you want something like that for Miniatures, then get busy. No one is going to magically do it for you. It takes the work of committed individuals.

Are you committed?

Time will tell.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Nov 21, 2011)

Amy!!!








We have one pony to hardship, an ASPC gelding. We intended on hardshipping him when we had the extra $$ anyway.


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## Minimor (Nov 21, 2011)

Great posts Amy!

Actually, I never got around to saying it earlier, but I do have one ASPC pony, a coming 3 year old stallion, that will be hardshipped in 2012 assuming he still measures in when the time comes. I was going to do his hardship measurement anyway, but wasn't sure I'd be able to justify paying $400 to get his R papers....of course that was before I knew how valuable those R papers are...




...so now if he does measure in I will hardship him in right away. At $200 it is worth it to me. And if it turns out that he measures a 1/2" over, oh well, I did buy him to be a pony and his ASPC papers are what I value the most.

Was just thinking while I was cleaning the barn tonight--didn't a few people comment earlier on that they wish AMHA would reduce their hardship fees as well, because that would be good business for AMHA? I'll have to go back and check that. In any case, I guess everyone has their own idea of what makes good business.


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## Sandee (Nov 21, 2011)

Amy, and if you find a way to shrink any of your ponies like your mare that won Liberty......oooo, let me know! Love those high steppers.


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## Leeana (Nov 22, 2011)

I have never really tried for AMHR/ASPC ponies - as most all except for a few of my ponies are ASPC and 42+ ponies. But I do have two that I intend to hardship into AMHR this Spring, but the sale makes do difference - I planned to hardship them R anyway, sure can find something nice to do with the extra cash I will save now



.

LaVerne, I can almost relate with you (almost)....it really does sting when I hear someone say they are "just" ASPC.....as the only "just" is that they are "just" a bit bigger. Which I like, and that is fine by me. But I guess it doesnt matter what you call them, they are what they are no matter the national title, no matter if its a HOF Superior Sire or HOF Superior Dam or AMHR or AMHA or ASPC or AMHR/ASPC or AMHA/AMHR or AMHA/AMHR/ASPC or ASPR/AHHS...if its a good horse and bred right, its still a darn good horse..(pony)...Titles and Papers don't change the horse, just the value.

I think this can bring nothing but good in the long run - now those extra ponies with two sets up papers will have foals with two sets of papers (when bred right) and that down the road will continue to bring in more $$$$ to AMHR/ASPC as time goes on when it comes to registering the DBL reg foals from this cross, transfers, updates ext times TWO for the double reg animals. Financial security is never a bad thing.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 22, 2011)

Mary Lou I have to agree with you. In the past I disliked the way AMHR was going towards the Shetland look. I had also thought oh this is just another selling point to make Shetlands more popular. Has it worked I’m sure it has. Everyone can say breed for what you want but now I strictly show, I no longer breed, my horses do not have the Shetland look but the style of miniatures back when I first started showing, which was in 2003. Now my horses aren’t the look, I have stopped breeding, sold all my broodmares, and just have my 3 geldings and I enjoy and show. I was really considering switching to AMHA. I got my membership, I was going to plan on hardshipping my 2 geldings to AMHA this year when my one turned 3. But then I took a step back and opened my eyes.

I enjoy my horses, I enjoy showing with the people in the club, and AMHR is membership friendly. Some may disagree, but that’s JMO. AMHR created the Western class, which we needed because the driving classes were all over the place, because of the Shetlands huge movement that has been brought into the registry. If it wasn’t for Western I probably would have thrown in the towel. This class is huge and I think really has brought people back into the show ring with their horses. Now why we can’t do the same in halter? The AR State Fair had draft type which was the biggest halter class of that show, if not the biggest class period. The smallest horse won the class, he was the correct type, but it was awesome due to the fact that usually the biggest horse wins in a height halter class. Like someone mentioned perhaps we are too focus on height and should focus on type. Or offer a draft type halter class at Nationals I would love to see. There was a lot of interest for this class on this forum, many may not have agreed on the name but that could change. AMHR did something right when they added western I think they can do it again.

Lavern I like you idea, I really do, I just want a reason to have that seal. I did not realize the foundation division for the Shetlands wasn’t created but just 10 years ago. I didn’t get into showing minis til mid 2000s. If they can do that with the Shetlands I don’t see why the minis can’t create their own foundation division, I really think its something that needs to be created. People that don’t want to see the AMHR miniature to go needs to get together and come up with it. I honestly think base it on the foundation division for the Shetlands. I will be more then willing to help with it as I have stated in the past I have always wanted some type of division but had no ways of figuring out how to start it or no help was offered.

Has the Shetland influence helped the miniatures? Yes and no. I think the minis have certainly have come along way and I think the Shetlands have something to do with it. I personally have nothing against Shetlands, I think they are very beautiful, but I also see how many on here don’t want to see the AMHR miniatures go away. I was definitely one of them, I have lightened up on it but I know where they are coming from, I thinking adding AMHR Foundation Miniature division would help keep breeders involved. I see so many ads people selling AMHR, AMHR/AMHA horses because they are changing their programs to AMHR/ASPC, everyone is free to choose what they want but at the same time it’s kind of sad.

This topic has certainly got off topic I think this sale was a great idea for AMHR, hope it brings in new members.


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## ohmt (Nov 22, 2011)

I have to respecfully disagree with your use of the word 'trend' towards the AMHR/ASPC ML. While they are more prevalent now, they have been winning quite a lot in AMHR shows since the early 90's. Michigans, Town and Country, JCs are just a few I can think of that have been breeding National Grand Champion AMHR/ASPC horses for a long time. I don't think the AMHR/ASPC horses are going anywhere and I don't see the 'trend' going anywhere for a long time. I did notice that this year there more in the 'A' division at nationals which I love. Some breeders are still utilizing the best horses they can while still trying to breed them smaller. The best part is that the majority still had the love proportions I like about the shetlands. I think once AMHA closes its books we are going to see a lot more separation of the registries. If AMHR closes its books its going to be bad for those that have only AMHA registered horses. We all know how unpredictable the mini's heights are. I've got a 28.75" mare that produces 33"-34" foals consistently no matter what stallion bred to, including my 29" boy. Foals that will mature taller will be very hard to sell and anything that goes over will have no chance at papers at all. Rough stuff.


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## Riverrose28 (Nov 22, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> In the many years involved in Miniature Horses, the style what a Miniature Horse is has changed.. From the well built/squared Quarter horse style winning in the ring to the now ultra refined with action style.. Many people have given up on following the latest trend of what a Miniature horse is.. and today it is the ASPC/AMHR registered ones.. I wonder what it will be in a few years from now as the popular trend in winning Miniature horses??
> 
> I also wonder if people that like the "straight" Miniatures should get more involved in AMHA.. as I think it would be difficult to have a TOTAL under 34" breeding program TODAY with ASPC horses added to the bloodlines..
> 
> Just my thoughts..


I've shown my under 34" horses in AMHA and done well.

Question is: What about the over, say 35" straight minis without any recent ASPC blood, how do we market them, or show them? They may do well locally at shows but can't compete in halter at the National Level against the ASPC/AMHR horses. It would be nice if those of us that enjoy showing could afford to add ASPC to our breeding program, but many of us are struggling just to keep our guys feed and vetted. I asked at the National Show in 2005 if there was someway we could add a class or two for the straight up mini and was told AMHR was a pony registry first. Now of course I was asking other exhibitors so maybe I didn't follow protacol. Any advice you can offer is highly appreciated. I know this is off topic, sorry.


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## horsehug (Nov 22, 2011)

Diane,

I understand what you are saying for sure.

I have ALWAYS supported both AMHA and AMHR also! And I have hardshipped into both also!

I'm always happy to hear they are making something mroe affordable for us in EITHER registry!

Susan O.


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## Jean_B (Nov 23, 2011)

LaVern - write that proposal, book your tickets for the convention....and go rub elbows with lots of others who share your passion, as well as those who need some convincing. That's the only way to make change.


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## MajorClementine (Dec 3, 2011)

My mare is only WCMHR but her sire was AMHR as well. She is only 2 next year but IF she were 3 would I be able to hardship her AMHR?


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## Minimor (Dec 3, 2011)

Your mare is not eligible for AMHR hardshipping--WCMHR papers do not qualify a horse for hardshipping.

Her sire is AMHR--if her mother were also AMHR registered then she could be registered the normal way, without hardshipping, if you could get the correct paperwork completed.


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## MajorClementine (Dec 3, 2011)

Thats kind of what I thought. Thanks. I knew WCHMR didn't mean much when I bought her but I was just looking for a pet to pull a cart so doesn't really matter to me



not planning on breeding her or anything. I was just curious. Thanks again.


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## Horse Love (Dec 3, 2011)

Wish the AMHA would do this!


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