# CDE mini-what are best characteristics



## cathyjo76 (Nov 6, 2010)

Hi All,

In one year from Sept 09 I have done 5 ADT's and 1 schooling CDE and 1 CDE. I love them-well except for dressage-




I only LIKE that. I started with a bay 37,5 AMHR/39 ADS mini with awesome movement-who enjoys cones and hazards, but he is my challenge. Very refined with a shetland background, a bit of a hot head and SMART. He is coming 6 and I think I may be giving up on him. I did the last 3 events with my 12 yr old black 35.5AMHR/37ADS mini with a good mind but he wasn't so keen about competing.

I sort have been thinking about looking for something else. Initially thinking around 35-36 ADS, with more solid bone and muscle mass. ( both mine are narrow chested) I want nice movement and some GO.

Can any mini do these events? Would a smaller 33-35 be competitive? I love refinement, but I'm guessing that may decrease the ability to do a marathon with my pacific cart.

I'll take any comments or suggestions....

You know I have considered my issues with the above minis may just be me not them! But for whatever reason, I'm thinking a new start. Thanks Cathy


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 7, 2010)

I like an athletic horse with a good mind, willing temperament that trusts in me not to get him in trouble. One that CAN think for himself but listens to me when the chips are down - that way we can keep each other out of trouble. Too much bone and muscle mass can make for a heavy mover but too much refinement is not going to be built to last. I have driven a 32" Mini and a 35 1/2" Mini in CDE and either one could handle my 110 pound wooden Meadowbrook, myself and my navigator (a very light boy)over a cross country course.

May I ask why you are giving up on your Shetland youngster?


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## cathyjo76 (Nov 7, 2010)

_*willing temperament that trusts in me not to get him in trouble. One that CAN think for himself but listens to me when the chips are down -*_

_* *_

AHHH, you hit the nail on the head...trust....I don't trust him and he doesn't trust me as the leader-which I'm not in his case. Like I said, I am willing to admit to some of the problem being me.	I definitely lack some skills-I don't have the intuitiveness to work with training, respect...I have many books, watch videos, etc.. Then when I try some of these techniques, it just gets worse. (that is another topic!)

Rogan is very athletic and smart. His pic is my current avatar.(winter ADT) Maybe I am giving up too soon again. I did put 30 days of training on him. But boy is that expensive. I think it was 500-600.

However knowing that your smaller minis can do this WITH a navigator is good. I found a newly gelded 34.5 inch mini with lovely extension at an amish family. Green broke, not as refined, calm around kids, but had some energy.

You started me thinking about Rogan. Maybe I should start back to basics with simple ground exercises that I can understand over the winter, and make my mind up in the spring.

I really respect many of the opinions of the knowledgeable poster such as you, Myrna, Leia.

Thanks!


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 7, 2010)

I am going to assume both from your posts and your email to me that you are a relatively inexperienced driver and horse owner. The big problem with trying to learn from books is that it is your interpretation of what you are reading that you try to enact and without previous experience that may not truly be what the author is trying to say. It really helps to have hands on help when trying something new with a horse - once you get the hang of it, it is much easier to get it across to your horse. Working with horses does take some intuition or horse sense which can be learned over time if it doesn't come naturally.

I just hate to see someone giving up on a 6 year old who has likely at best 3 years under his belt in harness and of that it takes a good 2 years of GOOD driving consistantly for a horse to develop the strength and balance in harness to do a job well so your guy is really just a baby and deserves more time. He looks like quite a nice capable fella in your avatar.

You say you have found another green horse that _might_ just work. I personally don't think you need another green horse but if you really think you want to go shopping for a new one I would look for one that has enough experience at the job you want him to do that he can help teach you the ropes. I would save my money though and invest a little more time and money in the horse you already own - that is going to be less expensive and will give you a running start because at least you already know each other.

If you can be more specific at describing your troubles with Rogan perhaps we can help you out.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 7, 2010)

Hi Cathy! Nice to hear from you again and I hope you'll post some pictures or stories from all those events you attended.



I've gotten better but am still having withdrawals from being out of the sport so I always love to live it vicariously through others!



cathyjo76 said:


> Can any mini do these events? Would a smaller 33-35 be competitive? I love refinement, but I'm guessing that may decrease the ability to do a marathon with my pacific cart.I'll take any comments or suggestions....


Absolutely they can! Kody is 33.5" AMHR/35.75" (I think) ADS and he's kicked butt around here for many years on full-length courses. B minis are generally the best for work like this just because they have more weight in comparison to the load they are pulling so they can do more, more easily, than a smaller horse, but there are many A-sized miniatures in the Pacific NW that are consistently at the top of the divisions. I think the single most important factor (behind temperament, of course) is conformation. Kody succeeded all right, but his conformational issues have cost him in the end and he broke down after only a few years of competition. If I were out searching for another competition horse I'd find one with the strongest, deepest rear end I could, a good loin connection, scopey shoulders and a good neck-set...in that order. Having had a horse with a terribly weak rear end that is now my most important factor!

I don't have a problem with refinement because to me that's a horse with a good thin, flexible neck, visible musculature and bone structure, and lots of leg in proportion to their body. You can have that and still have a broad chest, dense bone, strong hip and all the rest. The horses I see that succeed and last over the longterm have all those characteristics as well as good movement and excellent temperaments for the job. Kody had the temperament, no question. He also has good bone in his legs, decent shoulders, a nice long neck with good throatlatch and a wonderful wither. Good movement too. The problem is his rump is so light and so shallow that he had no power, the shallowness through the stifle caused locking issues, and the combination of locking and the constant swiveling movement from his exaggerated cowhocks put lots of strain on his lower back and made hazards difficult for him. I think if I could have just "swapped out" his hind end he'd still be going strong and winning everything in sight.

Any mini who can be safely driven can do these events. Any mini with a bold, honest, willing temperament can do them well at a lower level. Any mini with the above and decent movement and correct training can do well at Prelim for at least a while. To stay sound and be at the TOP of the game the horse must have all of the above AND solid conformation just like any full-sized horse used for sporting events. The main forum had a thread on sport horse conformation the other day- look that up and read the article ClickMini posted! You can't get much better guidance than that as to what to look for, physically.

I admire you for continuing to try with Rogan and I have no doubt he's a nice young man who could do very well at the sport, but maybe he isn't the right horse for you. You have to decide if working with him is important enough to you to go through the challenge of learning to work up to his level, or if you'd both be happier moving on to new partners who fit you better. There is no shame in that and you might be happier. If so, a 34-36" mini is in the right ballpark if he's built well and moves well. I do personally wish my 33" horses were bigger (or at least stronger!) as I get tired of not being able to give people rides but suspect I'll find a lot of that is just Kody's particular issues as most other A-sized minis I know have no problem hauling two adults for short distances. Hopefully Turbo will be better that way as he's going to be my tandem wheeler very shortly here.

Leia


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## susanne (Nov 7, 2010)

It's also possible that Roger isn't your CDE horse AT THIS TIME.

Mingus is wicked smart and, at times, totally full of himself. He's still occasionally willful in hand, but get him in harness (or just show him a cart) and he is all business. We didn't really start driving until he was seven (he's now 10), and I really don't know if he would have been as good of a driving horse at a younger age.

If you have the room and resources for an additional horse, you might look into a quieter, more experienced horse to compete with, but continue working with Roger on the side.


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## cathyjo76 (Nov 7, 2010)

Thanks for the suggestions and help. Lori if you lived closer, I would be at your door. I have been back and forth with keeping him, selling him. I see his potential. But I also realize my limitations.

I have come into minis late in life...never rode or really did anything with horses. I just started driving less than 6 yrs ago, and while I have improved I still have a long way to go. I spent 2 yrs driving an older gelding in the breed ring that taught me alot. But there is still more to learn I just got the idea of half halts last year!! I do have the opportunity for infrequent lessons and have taken clinics with alot of trainers: Andy Marcoux, Muffy Seaton, Jeff Morse, Dana Bright, but sometimes too many opinions make me confused!

I have had both my farrier and best friend tell me they think he has hackney in his background based on conformation, temperament,and bloodlines. Might account for his behaviors. He can be so high strung when driving, he literally can go for miles with all his energy, but it is not where it needs to be: coming from behind. He doesn't use his rear end. he doesn't respect me ( definitely my fault). Very inconsistant in manner: one day he is quiet and round, then the next day all strung out.and full of vinegar.

A good friend thought that maybe it was time for me to move on: I am going to be 60 next yr



-no wait that must be someone else. Anyway I want to have fun and improve. But I could hang on to Rogan. Even tho someone else said it's time for a divorce-and there are too many other nice horses out there-I keep trying not to give up on Rogan.

I recently got a 3yr old welsh pony that is easy for me to work with, but I want a VSE for the ADS events. That brings me back to the original topic since my problem isn't going to be fixed on the forum!!!!! But I sure appreciate your input both on the minis and my problem!!!





Leia, I will have to email you the pictures...


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## drivin*me*buggy (Nov 7, 2010)

Cathy,

I would love to see the pictures from your events too- I bet everyone would





As for a new horse for you....for me- trust is imperative between me and my horse...and if you don't feel that with Rogan- then perhaps you would be happier with a different horse and maybe he hasn't found "his" person yet. I believe the horse and person need to be a good match.

With the market the way it is right now- there are alot of nice horses out there for a good deal...just know what you want, know your abilites and what you are comfortable with and stick to it.

Angie


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## RhineStone (Nov 8, 2010)

Cathy, I wished you lived closer. Rogan sounds A LOT like Alax at that age! He was high-strung, unpredictable, and not very much fun to drive. There are some people that I wouldn't put behind him even today. But...he has made an amazing transformation. I have had people tell me at shows that they can't believe he is the same horse that I debuted in 2007.

However, you have to like that style of horse, too. OK, maybe _liking_ them isn't enough. I know people that _like_ hot horses, but can't _handle_ them because of their confidence issues. (I don't know if that is _your_ case, but it is in the people I know.) Dealing with a hot horse isn't going to help their situation. They need a schoolmaster. In as much as some schoolmasters don't tend to be overly brilliant, they can be a stepping stone to the horse that the driver _really_ wants. You can't just jump on a 5-gaited Saddlebred without first learning on a Country Pleasure or an Academy horse.

Rogan sounds like the type of horse that could be really competitive in the Pleasure arena, while you take a more "stable" horse in CDEs. Although Alax has done well in the CDEs, I don't like to have to hold him back to make the minimum times (yes, I know I could go in Prelim, but I don't feel that he is ready to canter in the hazards yet without messing up his mind for trotting at Pleasure shows, and what is the point of walking hazards?). I am working on a different horse for CDEs and saving Alax for pleasure and Multiples. I think it is perfectly fine to "pigeonhole" your horses if you have enough to do it.

The other thing to consider about Rogan is exactly his age. I have known pony breeders that say that their ponies' minds don't really mature until 5-6. I started Alax at 6 (when I got him), so we were a number of years behind the ball. He should have been "ready to go" at 6, but not if he wasn't started at 2-3. And some minis can handle the driving at 2-3 and be ready for it, but not if they are a hot horse. Our 2 1/2 yr. old Arab/DHH mare isn't going to be ready for a number of years. She is smart enough, but still a "kid" mentally, messing around, pushing the limits, being a "teenager".





Myrna


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## cathyjo76 (Nov 8, 2010)

I have had several knowledgeable people tell me he is young and to hang in there.

I have also had several other ones tell me it is time to move on.

He is fun to drive when he is on, and not so fun cause I never know what to expect. It's funny but that is exactly the way I describe him: as a smart, bored, 15 yr old boy, testing the limits. I was a much better mom to my human children-I'm missing the tools for the horse ones,

I wish I did have consistant training available to me and him. The trainer close by has too deep arena for him to pull the cart. When we have been able to schedule lessons, they are outside. Most others don't take minis seriously.

I will post pics if I can figure that out.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 9, 2010)

cathyjo76 said:


> I have had several knowledgeable people tell me he is young and to hang in there.
> 
> I have also had several other ones tell me it is time to move on.
> 
> ...



I am sooo glad to hear you say that about the "15 year old boy" because that is EXACTLY what you have there. Understanding that is going to go a long way to helping you overcome your difficulties with him. Of course you were a better "human mom" - you ARE human and so it is much easier to come to an understanding - and it is because you are a great human mom, and because you truly want to, that I feel you will be able to get past this and reach an understanding with Rogan. You just have some educatin' to do!





I honestly feel that moving on to another horse is not going to solve your problems and, even if you get yourself an old hand to teach you, there is not going to be the partnership there that you want and need. Sometimes the "devil you know" is way better than that "bird in the bush" just to thoroughly mix some metaphors



You already have money, time and love invested in a horse and I can sense that you are not readily willing to throw that away and I wouldn't be if I were you. From what you have told me I think you have a really great little horse there - very intelligent and capable.

The other problem is that the type of horse you need right now is NOT readily available in Miniature - a well schooled Pleasure Driving/Combined Driving horse is hard to come by. Yes there are horses available out there that are trained to drive but what is "trained" for the breed ring is NOT what you need and neither is "green broke".

Does the "trainer close by" have a full size driving horse (one that can handle her footing) that you can take some lessons on? While Rogan certainly needs some education, I think you would benefit greatly by some lessons with an experienced horse - it is hard to be both a teacher and a student with the same horse.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 9, 2010)

Hey Cathy, I've got an idea.



Bring the brat to the next National Drive along with your other horse and I'll school you both! It will be a terrible sacrifice for me to have to drive such a nice horse for four days and spend time with a good friend, but I'm willing to do it for the sake of assisting you.





Love,

Leia


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## cathyjo76 (Nov 9, 2010)

Already counting the days!!!!

BTW, Indiana was surprisingly a good place to drive. They still had the course up from the CDE.

Hey Cathy, I've got an idea.



Bring the brat to the next National Drive along with your other horse and I'll school you both! It will be a terrible sacrifice for me to have to drive such a nice horse for four days and spend time with a good friend, but I'm willing to do it for the sake of assisting you.





Love,

Leia


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## cathyjo76 (Nov 9, 2010)

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Does the "trainer close by" have a full size driving horse (one that can handle her footing) that you can take some lessons on? While Rogan certainly needs some education, I think you would benefit greatly by some lessons with an experienced horse - it is hard to be both a teacher and a student with the same horse.

Hi Lori, Thanks for the encouragement. Actually that is a good idea to use the trainers horse.

She drives a morgan-so far in the breed ring only I think, but you are right, that is a good place to start. That will also help me with my new pony.

Cathy


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