# Another bit observation...



## Marsha Cassada (Mar 23, 2013)

I started the project horse I'm boarding with the myler comfort snaffle. He was accepting it fine and it seemed to suit him well. The trainer who is taking him over prefers the broken snaffle; she said it is what John Lyons recommends.

I am out of his training loop now, so it is not my decision anymore.

It never ceases to amaze me, the variety and preference of the different bits.


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## Minimor (Mar 23, 2013)

Preference for bits should IMO always be the preference of the horse, not the preference of the trainer or the preference if some clinician that is speaking generally. John Lyons may recommend a particular bit but if the horse doesn't accept thr at bit well then it is not the right choice for that horse. Hopefully this particular horse will work well in the jointed snaffle and if not that the trainer will recognize that and switch to something that does suit the horse.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Mar 24, 2013)

I don't know much about John Lyons but it seems to me that any trainer worth the name will recommend a bit "in general" but realize that being flexible is important and if a horse prefers something other than what is generally the best choice then whatever the horse goes best in becomes the best choice. I suspect this person is taking a statement based on a common snaffle bit being all a horse needs (instead of for instance a curb or....) and making it a law. If JL says use it there is no other alternative. Hopefully they'll figure out what works (or the horse won't mind the snaffle) rather than blame the horse if it doesn't go well in their bit of choice.


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 24, 2013)

I went back to the Myler site and read more about the low port snaffle. It is recommended for starting a horse, which is what I first purchased it for a few horses ago.

When I had tried it on my experienced gelding he did not like it. He prefers his french link and goes well in it so that is what I'm sticking with.

Rereading about the bits motivated and reminded me to work with it as a tool more; sometimes I get so used to Dapper Dan that I take advantage of his experience and don't use the bit properly for him.

I started Dapper Dan in the broken snaffle, which came with my first headstall. When I changed him to the french link it was immediately apparent that he was happy with it. By then he had passed the chomping stage!


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## Cajonat (Mar 24, 2013)

I must admit, I sure like the lozenge/french link style bit. Of all the horses I've had, they have all preferred it.

I was really happy to find a lozenge style driving bit for my mini. I didn't like the way he was ground driving with the mullen and sure enough, when we switched to the lozenge style he liked it too- softer, quieter with his head.

But as all the others have said - you really have to read the horse...he/she will let you know.


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 25, 2013)

The right bit for the horse is ALWAYS the bit the horse is happiest in, NOT the bit some human thinks it ought to be happiest in!

I am no fan of NH and this is the main reason why. I do not care whether JL said exactly this, or if it was misinterpreted as having been said this way- if the trainer was worth his salt s/he would make absolutely certa8in that their comments could, in no way whatsoever, be misinterpreted. After all, there are a lot of idiots out there and sooner or later something you say is going to be read by them


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## studiowvw (Mar 26, 2013)

I don't really understand why the regular snaffle is commonly used as a driving bit.

When you pull on both reins, you get both the nut-cracker effect, and the centre part poking the top of the mouth - also it seems that in traditional driving there is a lot of "pull" on the reins. How do the horses tolerate it?

So why the regular snaffle - I understood in riding it is used for one rein at a time. Driving is almost never one rein at a time.

I can understand the French link being used, as there is much less of a nutcracker effect, and no sharp poke when both reins are pulled.

Lacey currently goes in a straight (slight curve actually) bit, as Lori who trained her said that was the only bit she liked.

Eventually I would like to try her in a French link bit, but for now, not going to mess with her mouth as she seems to be happy.


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## Minimor (Mar 26, 2013)

studiowvw said:


> So why the regular snaffle - I understood in riding it is used for one rein at a time. Driving is almost never one rein at a time.
> 
> .


Of course it is--I do dressage, and I drive exactly the same way I ride...and I rarely use both reins at once, not even when asking for a halt. I seldom use a lot of pull on the reins either--i push the horse forward onto the bit--the more forward they are the lighter they are--I don't pull to turn or stop, I just "think" turn or stop, squeeze the rein a little bit and the horse does it. 
I have horses that drive beautifully in a jointed snaffle, and I have horses that do better in something else.

Believe me, there are many who ride with a snaffle and are very heavy handed on that snaffle--they rarely use one rein at a time!


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## studiowvw (Mar 27, 2013)

Minimor, thank you for this excellent description. I hope to always do the same as I get better - Lacey is very light in the reins usually and responds to squeezes.

I am trying to develop better reinsmanship and I'll keep your image in my mind as an example.

I'll bet most people who drive don't have the light feel that you are describing, along with many people who ride with heavy hands in a jointed snaffle.

In riding I've hated the feel of the bit in their mouth so much that I rode the last 10 years in a rope halter (they can respond to a very light feel there too.) However, it isn't safe to drive in a rope halter, so I need to develop an understanding of using the bit and reins.

There are some things I don't understand:

1. With the weight of lines (more full size driving than minis) how can there not be the nutcracker effect on a snaffle just from the weight?

2. In a driving lesson I took a couple of years ago, the instructor wanted me to "take more contact" more, more, more, etc. When she finally said "There, he's going much better for you now," I was pulling with both hands to 15 or 20 pounds or more. This certainly was not using one rein at a time. It was pulling both reins with heavy hands. He may have been hauled into a posture that looked right, but it sure was not "contact", it was abuse.

3. In dressage lessons in the past, the instructors were always telling me "more contact, more contact". But not telling me what you are saying, above. (Or anything else other than that there was too much slack in the lines.) ***I still do not understand how one can pay $45 or $60 or more for a lesson and not get useful information - the common way of teaching that I've experienced (until I gave up!!!) is to have you go around and around in circles until it "happens" automatically. I only learn from detailed information!





How does one develop "more contact" with one rein at a time? (Without pulling.)

Do you take a feel on one rein, then the other, I suppose (half halt type). If the horse accepts this contact or feel, then you have a live contact with the mouth. How does one take "more contact, more contact" if the horse does not give to it? More feel on each rein until you get a give?

What do you do when you get the give? Release? How long is your release?

4. How do you push the horse forward onto the bit? Verbal encouragement, clucking, smooching? The whip?

So you hold your hands steady and the horse takes more contact itself? Or if not accepting the contact, puts more pressure on the bit itself? Then you hold steady until you get a give? Then you release to reward and teach?

If you could give me some clues how you break down what you said above, I would appreciate it! If not, that's ok, I like the image you described.

Thanks again


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## studiowvw (Mar 27, 2013)

I am thinking about how I would get collection in my QH mare when riding with the rope halter, and what I would do is softly ask her to collect with my hands while lifting my seat up a bit.

In a halter you don't pull with both reins either - you pick up a feel and when you get a feel back, you have a contact.

So I guess I could transfer that same feel to the bit.


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 28, 2013)

My take on this response to the bit is the horse learning to give to pressure. For me, this starts while going for walks or ground work. For instance, if he puts his head down to nibble I keep steady pressure on the lead. He raises his head, release/reward. It is amazing how effective release/reward is. Don't jerk or yank. I think many people do not realize even how a halter can work.

While ground driving we practice weaving subtlely down the road--pressure on a rein till I feel him give, then instant release. Back and forth while walking. I can actually feel the snaffle working (and if I can feel it for sure my horse does.) The same with whoa.

After he is used to giving to pressure, then comes the time to make the contact stronger with the forward impetus command. As soon as he brings his head in to release the pressure, the driver instantly releases the reins. The horse figures it out.

Now, I cannot do this to perfection because I have the attention span of yearling filly. I know WHAT to do, but I am temperamentally incapable of taking it to perfection. So my horse and I enjoy each other but it is highly unlikely you will ever see us competing at a dressage competition! But learning about pressure and how to use the bit has made us both happier.

As to trainers, I think they need to begin with us ground driving. If we cannot get good results on the ground, we probably aren't going to get good results in the cart. The last formal training session I had, the trainer told me to unhitch. It was humbling but necessary. And the fee was $100 per lesson. For $45 I might go more often...


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## targetsmom (Mar 28, 2013)

Funny, but I never rode my dressage horse in a regular jointed snaffle either - usually some variation of a French link. But I would also ride him (especially on cold days) with a halter and two reins, and my dressage saddle. When riding while a lesson was going on in the same ring (boarding barn) I don't think anyone, including the instructor, noticed that Target was not "on the bit" but only being ridden in a halter.

I start all mine in a mullen mouth snaffle and then go from there, but never the jointed snaffle that came with the bridle. I love (because my horses do) real Myler bits. Lots of them seem to stay in the mullen mouth. We also have all the 4-Hers learning to drive by ground driving, first practicing with reins with me as the horse!


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## Cajonat (Mar 28, 2013)

Well, took me years to figure out a kind, yet communicative contact in dressage...lessons, practice, lessons, practice...took a long time. Still can't say I was there when I had to give up dressage, but it was coming. Now how to transfer this over to driving...that is my mission. Well, once the back is fixed!

Take home message from all the years of dressage...ride the horse up to a kind, soft, supple contact. Don't kick, force or crazily ride the horse up into a unforgiving hand. Sometimes called in the dressage world "crank and spank". You should have a living contact with the mouth...soft hands. It's a difficult thing to explain...you need to set the framework for the contact, you can't let them barge through the contact. But the framework, wall (the end energy you have created from your hands to the bit) whatever you want to call if should be kind and forgiving...but purposeful. If you were walking holding a child's hand and they were struggling to go somewhere that you didn't want to go...would you give them a yank? No, you might talk to them, gently pull their hand...might be in a few soft tugs, might be a gentle pull, might just flutter your fingers a bit in the child's hand...given the situation, your relationship with the child, knowing the child's personality...you may make different choices on how you will solve the situation. If the child pulled herself into the path of a car...you betcha there would be a yank...but try to never get into that situation. Take home message, gentle yet purposeful contact.

One little exercise that stuck with me over the years. My trainer told me to take my bridle home, take off my socks and stick the bit in between your toes then take the reins in your hand. See how that feels. Worked for me!

A bit of early morning rambling...but hope that makes sense...contact is REALLY difficult to explain.


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 28, 2013)

I do not understand the theory behind putting pressure on the bit by pulling- that is just not the way to do it, not IMO anyway and not in the way I was taught back in the days of the dinosaurs! You hold the reins gently but firmly and you _send_ the horse into the bit, with your legs or with sympathetic use of the whip or your voice, bringing the horse up into the bridle. Pulling on the reins has no place, except, possibly, with a runaway!


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## Minimor (Mar 28, 2013)

Thank you Jane, that is it exactly! It is so much more that just using the reins and so the bitno pulling, no making the horse give to pressure (I NEVER practice bending a horses head around to touch his nose to his side, as so many people dothat, to me, is a useless exercise) I have a feel of the mouth --as one is supposed to when you use any sort of a snaffle bit-but the reins are a directive only, the real key is in using your legs (riding) or whip (driving) to push the horse up onto the bit. I squeeze the rein a little when I want a turn, or a halt, or I may set my hand briefly if the horse gets strong (half halt) but I do not pull.

Have a horse that is going hollow, counter bending on the circle? I do not try to make him give to pressure by pulling his head to the inside, I ask him to take contact on the outside reinbecause THAT is what he is avoiding!and when he takes contact on that outside rein he will straighten and then regain his correct bend.

Pulling on the reins or even holding them too tightly and insisting that the horse give to the pressureis how so many horses end up going so badly, way behind the bit, with no impulsion. I do not believe in see sawing the reins--as so many do--to make the horse tuck his nose.

Studio ww -- I have sent you a PM-- I only now saw the last part of your post. I will answer your questions a little later!


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## studiowvw (Mar 28, 2013)

Thanks for the descriptions and ideas. I'll see how we do this weekend both in line driving and actual driving.

I like the bit and toes exercise





This is how I developed a feel on the line or halter:

I would jog on my mini trampoline, while holding reins in my hands. The reins were tied to the back of a chair which I would pull up onto its back legs (i.e. back legs closest to mini-tramp).

Then while jogging I would try to keep the chair balanced on its back legs without pulling it over backwards.

I could never get the chair to stay totally still, but it sure is an exercise in keeping your arms/hands/fingers independent of your body movements. And you sure can't pull!

Anyways, I intimidated myself by stressing over the bit and contact today



so didn't hitch her up. I took her for a conditioning walk on line and we enjoyed each other's company and did a mile walk, which we both could use.

I'll sleep on the concepts and hopefully come out better in the morning.

Thanks again.


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## Cajonat (Mar 28, 2013)

Sounds like you have a plan!


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## Cajonat (Mar 28, 2013)

...and was going to add, that's why you see so many people not a fan of the side or check rein. You would be sending them up to a really unforgiving contact. Yes, they may learn to back off from the discomfort and place their head where it is "supposed to be" but you really do not see a relaxed horse, just a horse that has learned a way to position his head to avoid discomfort.


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 29, 2013)

Well, as soon as you remove the check the horse will put it's head back down where it wants it, same as with a running martingale that is too tight! The only thing either do is _prevent_ the horse, physically, from putting it's head where it wants to (in my Amira's case, this was in my front teeth, but then she was an Arab......)


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## Littlegoesalongway (Mar 30, 2013)

Coming from a NH background, I used to really struggle with the concept of 'contact' as well. Some of the current teachings out there can leave a person afraid of contact or completely against it. Didn't help that I switched from dressage as a kid, to reining in my teens - disciplines at complete opposite ends of the contact spectrum, which left me thoroughly confused. It took struggling with a super-sensitive/ ultra-light but tense riding horse, and some superb instruction from a couple talented clinicians & drivers that finally brought some clarity for me on key points:

1. As mentioned by some others above, proper contact is really like holding hands with your horse. It's an intimate, physical connection between horse and rider/driver. It's also a way of intimately conversing with your horse. It's like holding hands with a dance partner...you can feel of & for each other, rather than just one person dictating what you both are going to do.

2. Proper contact is a following feel in your hands - it is NOT a pull (HUGE difference!) As humans, our natural tendancy is to pull, grab, hold onto things & we do it unconsciously. You can take up more contact/more of a hold/more weight in your hands and as long as you maintain the "following-feel" to the horse then it is still a forgiving contact. As soon as you loose that following feel though, it quickly changes to a pulling/grabbing/forcing feel to the horse and you've lost the connection and the conversation

3. In driving, contact is very important as it's your ONLY direct connection with your horse (with riding you have your weight, seat, legs & hands). And because it's such an intimate connection, your horse can feel you & feel your intentions much more clearly, quickly & more subtlety. They can respond quicker to a subtle feel than they can to a cue (like voice or a tap of the whip)

4. In terms of contact, there is a HUGE difference between 'lightness' and true 'softness'. A horse can be light & responsive to the rein but not soft to it. If they are light without softness then they are actually avoiding the connection. They either don't understand enough, trust enough or respect enough to hold hands with you and let you be the leader in the dance. True softness is a responsiveness with total relaxation, willingness & trust. The horse then finds complete comfort in the connection and they'll actually seek the contact because they find comfort in you leading them. Which leads to point #....

5. The horse sets the amount of contact, not the rider. Some horses prefer a stronger connection, some prefer a more subtle connection. Since a following feel is really a conversation between horse & rider/driver, then it's up to the rider to understand that the horse isn't just trying to pull away from the contact but are infact trying to tell you that they need a stronger connection.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Apr 1, 2013)

Exactly, Littlegoesalongway. Exactly. Bravo.



studiowvw said:


> I don't really understand why the regular snaffle is commonly used as a driving bit.
> When you pull on both reins, you get both the nut-cracker effect, and the centre part poking the top of the mouth - also it seems that in traditional driving there is a lot of "pull" on the reins. How do the horses tolerate it?
> So why the regular snaffle - I understood in riding it is used for one rein at a time. Driving is almost never one rein at a time.


The snaffle is NOT a commonly accepted driving bit for exactly the reasons you list. Only minis seem to use them regularly! Traditionally, almost all driving was done with bar bits so as not to squeeze the horse's lower jaw. It simply works better with the heavy, long reins used on big horses and the long gradual turns most commonly found in coaching and other traditional forms of driving. I found when I switched to pair driving that even the French Link snaffle my colt drove well in solo put way too much drag on the corners of his mouth with the heavier reins- we had to switch to a Myler Mullen to relieve the pressure.



studiowvw said:


> In riding I've hated the feel of the bit in their mouth so much that I rode the last 10 years in a rope halter (they can respond to a very light feel there too.) However, it isn't safe to drive in a rope halter, so I need to develop an understanding of using the bit and reins.
> 
> There are some things I don't understand:
> 
> ...


As others have already pointed out, most of your problem is coming from having an incorrect visualization of what contact is and should be.



If you think of it as pulling on their mouths and endlessly taking without giving then of course you're going to hate it and resist it! Who wouldn't? But driving is a dance between two individuals just as work on the ground is. The difference is that in NH groundwork the two partners are working off of body language. In driving, it's like both partners have been blindfolded and must now do their dance entirely off the feel of their clasped hands. When you can see, the only thing you may notice when you hold someone's hand is the feel of their skin and how hot or cold it is because you're overwhelmed with other sensory input. When you close your eyes and concentrate, suddenly you realize you can feel their tension, how close they are to you, which way they're moving, and you can pull them close or repel them simply by modifying your energy and the quality of your touch. You don't have to pull or push them! You just soften your grip and hint seductively that they should come close, or firm up the muscles in your arm and use your energy to move them away from you. In that dance there is nothing wrong with taking a firm clasp of each other- lighter is not necessarily better. Lighter may mean less communication, less support. It is the same with driving. If you're only using one rein at a time then the horse is left floating out there in space, blind and without guidance in between cues, with no idea what you want them to do or how you want them to carry themselves. It's like trying to salsa blindfolded with only your fingertips touching! They WANT that support, that guidance, and learn to seek it as a comfort. This is your way of being the herd leader when you're in a cart behind them.

One of the hardest things for most new drivers (including me) is to correlate what we feel with what is actually happening. I remember my first clinician telling me to trot my horse out, trot him out, I was barely moving, trot him out! Well, *I* sure felt like I was trotting out and thought he was nuts!




Then I watched the video my mom had been taking of our lesson and realized my horse was barely jogging. When you aren't used to something it can feel like you're doing things to excess but with more experience you may realize your trainer was right. My arms were literally trembling in their sockets when I finished my first driving lesson with a full-sized horse. Those reins were long and heavy, the Fjord had a thick neck and was used to strong, advanced contact and my muscles were not used to keeping a grip on something in that elevated position for that long! But if I look at the pictures of that day he was going beautifully, using his hindquarters and coming onto the bit correctly at the poll and looking perfectly happy even though I felt like I'd been lifting weights all day. Since then I have helped many new folks learn to take up contact and every single one felt like they had it as soon as they had any hint of connection with the horse's mouth but from my side of things the reins were still completely drooping and the horse was strung out and saying "What the heck??"



Trust your trainer. Try it. Listen to the experienced horse- was he saying he felt your contact was abusive? Was he tossing his head and gaping his mouth and trying to run backwards when you wouldn't take the pressure off? If not, chances are your trainer was right and the contact simply felt strange and unnatural to you because of your own western and NH background.

It is amazing to feel how the lightest touch on a lover's back or on a leadline connected to a rope halter can bring such a sensitive response. It is also, however, amazing to throw yourself into the dance with a partner that you trust, catching and supporting and directing each other with vigor and a firm connection. They aren't mutually exclusive, just two very different sides to a wonderful coin.



Don't be afraid to learn this new kind of touch! It's only controlling and restrictive if you make it that way.

On a couple of separate notes....



rabbitsfizz said:


> Well, as soon as you remove the check the horse will put it's head back down where it wants it, same as with a running martingale that is too tight! The only thing either do is _prevent_ the horse, physically, from putting it's head where it wants to (in my Amira's case, this was in my front teeth, but then she was an Arab......)


Unfortunately, I have not found that to always be the case. Used harshly from the beginning of a horse's training it may teach them that they_ cannot _travel in any other frame, and it is practically impossible to get a horse in that situation to stretch their topline or truly work to the bit as they don't seem to realize it is possible. That's not always the case of course, I know plenty of high-powered show horses who stretch awesomely when the check is unhooked and work just fine without it, but I have definitely seen some who are far more efficiently chained by their minds than by the check itself.



Cajonat said:


> ...and was going to add, that's why you see so many people not a fan of the side or check rein. You would be sending them up to a really unforgiving contact. Yes, they may learn to back off from the discomfort and place their head where it is "supposed to be" but you really do not see a relaxed horse, just a horse that has learned a way to position his head to avoid discomfort.


Worse- sometimes they don't learn to back off from it, they learn instead to lean into the pressure and take all their support and guidance from it instead of the driver. Those are the horses that lug on the reins like a locomotive when you take off the check! Their understanding of "contact" is the same "pull" that StudioWVW was afraid of. It does not have to be that way but too often careless training does produce that response. As always, it's in the way the equipment is handled and not necessarily the equipment itself. (Yes Fizz, I know. I agree with you on checks but am trying to be fair to the show ring folks who get understandably tired of being castigated on here! I _have_ seen check-trained horses moving perfectly correctly and quite able to do so with or without the check, and they don't deserve to get blasted just because they have one on as required by the rules.)



Minimor said:


> (I NEVER practice bending a horses head around to touch his nose to his side, as so many people dothat, to me, is a useless exercise)


I have never been impressed with this gimmick as an end to itself, but after doing more reading on the French dressage masters and their use of one-rein bending exercises at a halt or walk I used a modified form of this exercise with Turbo to introduce him to giving to pressure and educate his mouth when I first started him. I did not of course bend his head all the way around (that would have been useless, as you said,) but I stood at one side and took up a light and playful pressure on one rein and waited for him to make the slightest move to give to it. Being a stubborn colt he tried every evasion and resistance in the book just because he resented being "pulled on," but I'd set a good groundwork of positive rewards and patience in other exercises so was able to redirect him more cooperatively. As soon as he gave the tiniest fraction I made a fuss over him and repeated the exercise, first bending to the side I was standing on and then to the other side to make sure he was really responding to the rein cue and not to my body position. He got it very quickly and we progressed to using the rein cue to ask him to lift his shoulder and rock his weight back softly onto the opposite hind leg. I just played with him, experimenting to see if I could get him to shift his weight, lift his shoulder, move his hip, move his shoulder. It was fun and he really liked it too! It was easy to combine that with the cue to walk forward which he already knew and within minutes had him solidly accepting contact and following the bit down when I gave rein. What startled me was how easily that one exercise transitioned into doing really nice soft lateral work within his first few minutes of ground-driving. I hadn't realized that would be a side effect but it made everything so easy. I will do that now with every horse I start.

Leia


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## targetsmom (Apr 1, 2013)

Here is an exercise I tried last week with a 4-H to teach contact and I would love to know what others think of it.

Two of us were in the cart with experienced Princess and we hadn't had time to attach a second set of reins to the halter, which I use for teaching the kids. So, to work with what we had, I gave the 4-Her just the left rein, while at a walk. I held the right rein with the level of contact Princess likes, which is quite a bit. She immediately started veering right...(we were in a big fenced field) so I told the 4-Her to take up on the left rein until she had enough contact for Princess to go STRAIGHT. It seemed to work like a charm! Then we practiced turns, still at the walk, and it still seemed to be working great.

Comments?? I would ONLY try this with a very smart and very experienced driving horse who would be able to recover from any initial confusion. And of course I will only do this occasionally. We have also tried me being the horse with each kid holding the reins but this seemed to make a bigger impression.


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## Cajonat (Apr 1, 2013)

This is a fabulous thread...I'm enjoying everyone's input immensely...it's probably detoured from the initial post (sorry Marsha), but I think it's an excellent, educational, timely detour! Timely for me, as I'm trying to articulate contact to my husband who is currently learning how to drive.

Thanks...


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 1, 2013)

Cajonat said:


> This is a fabulous thread...I'm enjoying everyone's input immensely...it's probably detoured from the initial post (sorry Marsha), but I think it's an excellent, educational, timely detour! Timely for me, as I'm trying to articulate contact to my husband who is currently learning how to drive.
> 
> Thanks...


I was just getting ready to post the same observation! I love the discussions about bits and how they work.

Some horse acquaintances of mine have recently been discussing bolting--causes and cures. I asked my very knowledgable dil yesterday about it and she said it is a fear response. Perhaps the horse is being asked to do something he does not understand, gets confused and tries to flee. In a lunging situation, perhaps the handler is giving mixed signals which confuse the horse and he tries to flee. Or it might start as a simple evasion and escalate to a bolt because the situation is not handled properly. A bit question is what started the discussion; people have a bolting horse and they try to use a harsher bit to control the horse and the bit is part of the problem.

The project horse I have right now tries to bolt while lunging. So I'm going to work on making sure my body language is correct and perhaps do it in a different area where he may feel more secure. Being bitted has, so far, never caused a bolt reaction with him.

My driving horse bolted once with me many years ago. I had a rattly tool box on the cart and he was inexperienced and probably thought it was after him.


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## Littlegoesalongway (Apr 2, 2013)

Awesome discussion! Love all these thoughtful comments and different ways of looking at & explaining things!

One of the ol'timers in our local driving club has an awesome way of teaching newbies about contact as it relates to driving. He brings out a tricycle, attaches a rein to either handlebar and gives the lines to the 'driver'. He then pulls a tricycle along via a lead rope attached to the front of the trike (this simulates the horse's natural drive forward). He asks the drivers to steer the bike through a series of pylons (zig zag/polebending style). It's way harder than you'd think and if you don't have just the right amount of contact on either rein, the trike will 'drop a shoulder' and literally fall over! Grown-ups and 4H kids alike always have a blast with this, especially if you ramp up some friendly competition via races!

If you ever get a chance to take in a "Centered Driving" clinic (an addaptation of Sally Swift's Centered Riding techniques), take it! I took a clinic with a centered driving instructor last fall and she had some amazing ways of teaching us about contact, feel and how subtle that connection can be with a driving horse. Had some awesome simulations that showed us all just how much the horse can feel & sense through the reins. It was profound how such simple things like uneven contact, too little/too much contact or even just curling your toes, holding your breath or having intense staring eyes could translate to a different feel down the lines. Totally changed the way I ride & drive!


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## Littlegoesalongway (Apr 2, 2013)

Oh Leia, in your wealth of wisdom you've brought up another key point that so often goes completely missed, ignored and/or overlooked. And yet it's one that the true classical dressage masters and top NH masters all emphasize, preach & teach from square one!

My understanding is that any type of contact, be it on 1 rein or 2 or anywhere in-between, is not meant to tell the horse where to put his head. Instead, it's about connecting the rein to the brain & ultimately to the body....communicating to the horse not just where to go but HOW to go (where to place a foot/their shoulders/ribs/hindquarters & ultimately where to place their weight & balance).

This is why checks don't & can't produce the same results as proper contact because they essentially just tell the horse where they can & can't place their heads. The check isn't a true communication tool because it really doesn't help a driver communicate anything down to the horse's feet, weight or balance.


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## Cajonat (Apr 3, 2013)

I've been blessed with the opportunity to ride some PSG and Grand Prix dressage horses over the years. And you know what, just because they are doing GP moves doesn't mean they were properly trained. These horses (well trained and trained with best intentions) and intuitive instructors have taught me...this is the feel, this is not the feel and "Yes, you were wrong all this time"!!. I've always had green beans to own and ride myself, but when I was able to catch a ride on those cadillacs...what an experience. They taught me how to consolidate lessons...it was amazing. It also taught me humility - that I'm only at the beginning of the journey. But once you get a horse connected, responding and talking to you on the outside rein, relaxed and responsive - whether is be a green horse or a trained horse...it is totally amazing. And addicting. That's when the horse tells you -"Honey, you GOT it - we are a team"!

Good instructors are expensive. But in the day of technology (forums like this, youtube etc.) I think we can all learn when our sponges and pocket books are not full! And if you any of you are able to drive an top competitive driving horse...go for it!! They will be amazing teachers. Good horsemanship is a journey, nothing you do will be wrong as long as you are reflective, willing to change and adapt, and bottom line - listen to your horse


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## studiowvw (Apr 7, 2013)

Great stuff!! I only just got on here since last weekend as I had a very busy week and had to keep working.

There is so much here I will have to read it several times.

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"My understanding is that any type of contact, be it on 1 rein or 2 or anywhere in-between, is not meant to tell the horse where to put his head. Instead, it's about connecting the rein to the brain & ultimately to the body....communicating to the horse not just where to go but HOW to go (where to place a foot/their shoulders/ribs/hindquarters & ultimately where to place their weight & balance)." Quote from Littlegoesalongway

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So true - in NH developing the feel on the line or rein that communicates "follow this feel" or "move that foot" or "move that foot forward, not backwards" is pretty cool. One feel of the hand (and your intent) on the line can have the horse bend its head around, another (same hand, same rein, different feel) can say "don't bend, but turn", another (same hand, same rein, different feel) can say "move that foot over", and another (same hand, same rein, different feel) can say "go forward" or "go backwards". It's all in how you take up the feel, how you accept the feel you get back, and when you release that feel.

The fear I have is that I will ruin my own very light feel that I have developed! Somehow this driving thing has got me going through a stage of being heavy, heavy, heavy. I'm really having to watch myself with the horse I am starting to ride (he is coming 4). A light feel communicates, but if I get heavy, he braces or does not respond. I am working through this





Anyways, we had a cold, cold week, and I was too busy to hitch except for on Tuesday.

I have more questions (sorry, they are very simple, I am learning the bigger picture, but I need details.)

We had another good drive (3rd so far). I was using a feel of one hand (finger squeezing) at a time, mostly.

1. The reins sit on her rump unless I have my hands up at my chin. If the reins are on her rump, they don't bounce. If I raise my arms, it is uncomfortable and I feel the reins start to bounce and affect the bit.

Should I be holding the reins off her rump, and what about the gravity effect on the reins and bit?

2. She seemed to like the one hand feel. Instead of this unfortunate habit I've picked up of pulling to indicate a whoa (HOW did I start doing that!!!), I would send the thought/feel down each rein and she would slow and stop. We did get some better downward transitions.

3. Our turn on the spot got much worse - we have to do this on the Trail as it isn't very wide. She would start to speed up and push through my feel on the bit so I ended up with that heavy feel on the bit (yes, the one I hate



). I think next time I will slow it right down and try for one step at a time to maintain the relaxation.

4. I stopped at the neighbour's because she and her 3yo daughter were coming down the drive to see us. Lacey didn't want to stop, she was aimed homeward and wanted to go. I probably shouldn't have put her into the position of having to stand at that moment.

There was no light contact or one-handed stuff - if I hadn't been heavy with the bit, she would have taken off. Ok, it felt like that pulling thing!

Not sure what to do here! Eventually I decided not to make her stand, apologized to the neighbour & child, and let her go. I didn't let her go home then, however, had her trot on around the corner and on down the road.

I figure I need to develop her patience for standing. I talked to a NH friend of mine who drives - he said you can't fix problems in driving while driving - you have to fix them (the principles) in other ways, then go back to driving (the purpose). This has definitely worked for me in the past.

I'm also going to develop a feel for contact with the bit while not hitched. I don't know how to feel for her taking contact, so I will have to experiment.

Thanks again for all the input. It is a very interesting topic!

Oops - one more thing - went to bed but remembered this one, so I got up again.

When walking, her nose nods by an inch or so. Am I supposed to follow this nodding? Or is her nose supposed to follow my hands as in relaxing her head/poll so she doesn't nod?

I know at the canter there is a nod of about 4 inches, no problem following that one. I don't think there's a nod at the trot.

At the walk, sometimes it doesn't seem to be an issue.

Other times there is a bump, bump, bump and I feel out of sync, so I try to follow it. Other times there is no bumping.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Apr 8, 2013)

_*We had another good drive (3rd so far). I was using a feel of one hand (finger squeezing) at a time, mostly.

1. The reins sit on her rump unless I have my hands up at my chin. If the reins are on her rump, they don't bounce. If I raise my arms, it is uncomfortable and I feel the reins start to bounce and affect the bit. 
Should I be holding the reins off her rump, and what about the gravity effect on the reins and bit?*_

Two things here- 1) If you have to hold your reins that high to keep them off her rear, then the cart is sitting too low behind your horse. This is a fit issue. 2) That bounce is one of many reasons to hold proper contact with a driving horse; if you don't, they bounce and drive you both mad. I've had the same experience with my lead line while taking a brisk walk with Kody and with trying to get my shafts to float while using wrap straps. I found you either had to tighten the wrap straps down enough to actually hold the shafts steadily or not use them at all and have the shafts truly floating in an open tug. To leave them loose simply made the shafts bounce horribly and Kody outright refused to move after a few minutes! LOL


*2. She seemed to like the one hand feel. Instead of this unfortunate habit I've picked up of pulling to indicate a whoa (HOW did I start doing that!!!), I would send the thought/feel down each rein and she would slow and stop. We did get some better downward transitions.*

Transitions are ALL about the energy/thought and very little about what your hands do on the lines. In fact for many horses used to working under firm contact, if you suddenly drop it ("dump the reins") they will transition roughly downwards because you have ceased helping them to recycle their energy through their body and it all runs out their front legs like water from an overturned bucket. For a horse like this taking up more contact can actually mean "increase your impulsion" and letting it go means "you're done working, slop along lazily." Again, more does not always mean "blocking." Sometimes it means more support, more help to balance.





_* 3. Our turn on the spot got much worse - we have to do this on the Trail as it isn't very wide. She would start to speed up and push through my feel on the bit so I ended up with that heavy feel on the bit (yes, the one I hate



). I think next time I will slow it right down and try for one step at a time to maintain the relaxation. *_

This is a consequence of doing it without sufficient support on the outside rein. She knows what you want but without both reins telling her how to stay in balance throughout the maneuver, she starts to rush and fall forward or over her shoulder. Definitely go back to doing it one step at a time but use that outside rein to straighten her body and help her understand you want her to step over, not go forward and turn.


_*4. I stopped at the neighbour's because she and her 3yo daughter were coming down the drive to see us. Lacey didn't want to stop, she was aimed homeward and wanted to go. I probably shouldn't have put her into the position of having to stand at that moment.
There was no light contact or one-handed stuff - if I hadn't been heavy with the bit, she would have taken off. Ok, it felt like that pulling thing!
Not sure what to do here! Eventually I decided not to make her stand, apologized to the neighbour & child, and let her go. I didn't let her go home then, however, had her trot on around the corner and on down the road.

I figure I need to develop her patience for standing. I talked to a NH friend of mine who drives - he said you can't fix problems in driving while driving - you have to fix them (the principles) in other ways, then go back to driving (the purpose). This has definitely worked for me in the past.
I'm also going to develop a feel for contact with the bit while not hitched. I don't know how to feel for her taking contact, so I will have to experiment.*_

If your little kid dashed out in front of a car, would you worry about trying to find a soft, polite way to discourage them from the path of danger? No. You would grab their hand and PULL! LOL. Yes, horses communicate with incredible subtlety and can move another animal from twenty feet away with a twitch of an ear. You'll notice however than when one crosses the line, the dominant horse turns around and lets them have it with 1,000lbs of teeth and hooves to let the offender know they screwed up. It's over quickly and there are no grudges held, but horses are not delicate little flowers that must never, ever be corrected or handled firmly. In this case it would definitely be a good idea to do some more training out of the cart and not put her in a situation where she'll be unlikely to succeed without an unnecessary fight, but I know darn well Lori would have taught your mare to stand. She is pulling your chain, plain and simple, and you need to put your foot down and insist on at least a moment of perfect stillness before she's allowed to move on. And then I would have worked her little tail off and made her stand again before we quit!



It's one thing when they're first learning but another when they know what you're asking and are purposely disobeying.

_*When walking, her nose nods by an inch or so. Am I supposed to follow this nodding? Or is her nose supposed to follow my hands as in relaxing her head/poll so she doesn't nod?
I know at the canter there is a nod of about 4 inches, no problem following that one. I don't think there's a nod at the trot.
At the walk, sometimes it doesn't seem to be an issue. Other times there is a bump, bump, bump and I feel out of sync, so I try to follow it. Other times there is no bumping. *_

Nodding is a sign the horse's back is swinging properly with a forward walk. You do want to follow it but not in the "don't touch her mouth, feed slack at her" way I suspect you mean.



It's important to keep a following hand at all times rather than a blocking hand but you can still do that with nice contact. All you'd be doing is catching the energy she's sending up her back and helping her use it to push up into the breastcollar and into her poll. Again, that bump bump bump thing is a sign you're holding too little contact.

Leia


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## studiowvw (Apr 10, 2013)

I took a quick read (supposed to be working as I am way behind, oops!) - will read it again later.

Thanks for the great answers, Leia!

Yes, Lori definitely taught her to stand, and yes, that was total "I don't wanna and I won't."



She won that time - I won't let her do that again!

She suits me because she doesn't get fearful or explosive - she gets hardheaded like me, but still likes me.


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## studiowvw (Apr 14, 2013)

Ok, we had a drive today and I experimented with some of Leia's ideas. (thanks a whole bunch for taking the time to explain!)

Regarding the reins being on her rump, I guess I do need to be sitting higher up. I have liked the low centre of balance in the cart, but I'm going to try adding a cushion of 3 or 4 inches to see if that helps. If that doesn't work, I'll put a chunk of styrofoam underneath the cushion which will raise it up.

It'll probably improve my posture.

The "following feel" at the walk, following the nod of her nose - This was working better. The two times we had an issue with being out of sync (bump, bump, bump) was when she was tense and resisting. (Ducks flew up once, also when she wanted to keep walking and I wanted her to stand.)

The good thing is that for the most part, we were in sync. Sometimes I'd get tired and take a break, but things would fall apart or at least become less ideal.

Weight of contact - she does seem to accept a somewhat firm feel (if it's following). She did have a couple of minor tantrums - I ought to have had her moving out freely before expecting her to turn back - she wanted to go up the road and did not want to turn back to go the other way. We did turn and go back, but it was ugly





Next time I got her to turn on the spot was to the right instead of the left as we have lost our left turn on the spot. Outside rein did help. I also think a word cue for the turn would help her to understand immediately instead of trying to figure out what I want.

Here is the amazing thing. When I think "stop", exhale and wiggle my little fingers, she stops within a few steps. I know Lori had her stopping by squeezing with her little finger (reins through top 3 fingers). The "think" and exhale gets a stop that is a real stop in her mind too. Don't even need to say whoa.

Sending a feel down the lines to stop, and saying whoa gets a medium successful stop, but she is always ready to go on again.

If she is resisting the stop and gets strong and I maintain firmness with a hard line, her feet may stop but her intent does not.

More practice needed!!!



I'm hoping the field dries out soon so we can drive in there too, instead of being on the road or trail going somewhere.

These were two other things that happened - My left tire seemed slightly soft, and when I would lean over and look at it, she would veer off to the left.

Also if I was messing with the reins (no contact, or contact only on one rein) she would veer off again. Focus ahead and feeling the contact got a good straight forward motion.

I like the idea Targetsmom relates about showing contact to 4-Hrs by taking up one rein and having the student taking up the contact on the other rein until the horse went straight.

My sister-in-law took a short video of us trotting by, will put it up later.

There are two things that I've been thinking about - one is that if I develop some understanding of the contact, I think a lesson would be more valuable to me then.

The other thing is that due to a breast cancer episode a few years ago, I'm not supposed to use my left arm heavily unless moving it (as in, don't carry heavy bags groceries) because losing the lymph nodes means you can end up with fluid not moving out of the arm. As in, as long as you're moving your arm while using it, that should be ok.

Therefore I'll have to avoid driving full size horses, too much weight in the arm - it's the type of use they warn against. I've heard of a person that gave up riding for this reason (I assumed it was dressage riding



- thought she should have taken up PNH because there is a lot less rein use - balance, intent and focus (reins only if you need them) are how you communicate.

Anyways, it is incentive to develop a light but effective contact with my mini.

Anyways, the only thing to do is get out there as often as possible and build some better habits!





PS we had a major improvement - we were overtaken by a motorcycle rider (supposed to be a non-motorized use trail). He was kind enough to stop and turn off his machine, and we were able to drive by without Lacey having an emotional meltdown. YAY! I may make a road pony of her yet!


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## studiowvw (Apr 14, 2013)

Here is the video from today - I see I dropped the contact on the first pass, but it looked better on the second pass, although she was thinking about not going around the corner so she looks like she is wavering a bit.

We had a "not turning! I'm not, I'm not, I'm NOT" episode, although in the end she did turn for the second pass - my SIL was videoing and turned it off when "nothing" was happening.





I feel very inadequate - out of my comfort zone, I guess. But that's how you learn.

Hopefully we will get better.

http://youtu.be/uINVMbVC-_Y


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## Littlegoesalongway (Apr 15, 2013)

You'll continue to be amazed at how much feel, connection & subtlety you can have with a driving horse! Especially through the power of breathing and driving more from your 'center' (just like in riding) rather than relying on your fingers/hands/arms so much.

Here's an interesting article you might find helpful.

http://www.wgte.org/designer/public.php?id=7997_3682_7715_6217


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## Rhondaalaska (Apr 15, 2013)

Studiowvw have you tried turning your head and upper body where you want to turn?

A trainer told me to try this as I was having trouble with my turns. It has worked realy well for us.

I was even able to turn a fairly tight corner.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Apr 15, 2013)

Rhondaalaska said:


> Studiowvw have you tried turning your head and upper body where you want to turn?
> 
> A trainer told me to try this as I was having trouble with my turns. It has worked realy well for us.
> 
> I was even able to turn a fairly tight corner.


This is good but even better is to turn from the waist. One of my trainers told me to "pretend your belly button is a flashlight and shine the light where you want to go," and this was a very good image for me. If you only use your head and neck you may find yourself sucking your elbows in against your sides and dropping your own shoulder, which encourages your horse to do the same.





Leia


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## studiowvw (Apr 20, 2013)

Thanks for the article on Centered Driving - the bit about the flashlight is in there.





I will have to read it a few times! There is a lot to absorb.

My riding mare (QH) would stop when I exhaled. Now working with my 4yo paint gelding - when we are running down the road together, I exhale when I want him to stop. They are very perceptive and I find this very soft cue is more effective than harder ones.

That's why I thought of trying it the other day when driving.

In NH the ultimate goal (IMO) is to be so in tune with your horse that when you think it, they do it. I get that sometimes, but not enough!

I think a thought causes very subtle reactions in your muscles/balance/etc. which is more like the communication between horses.

A friend was getting orthotics (not sure that's the correct word) made for his shoes. When they were making the form, he was told to look at a dot on the wall and not take his eyes off it! Because if he did, the weight shift would affect the form that was being molded.

------

Well, if I could only always do what I should do....! I'm sure my horses wish I was more perfect than I am (sigh!)

I'm having a busy week again which is good (it pays for weeks that are not so busy!) but the next three days are supposed to be nice, so I am going to try to sneak in a drive each day so I can practice some of these great ideas.

Thanks!


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## Foxhaven (Apr 22, 2013)

studiowvw said:


> PS we had a major improvement - we were overtaken by a motorcycle rider (supposed to be a non-motorized use trail). He was kind enough to stop and turn off his machine, and we were able to drive by without Lacey having an emotional meltdown. YAY! I may make a road pony of her yet!


As an off-highway motorcyclist, I want to apologize for my <expletive deleted> kin. Good thing I wasn't there or I would have contributed to his education... after giving him points for at least knowing what he should do in the presence of a horse.


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## studiowvw (Apr 22, 2013)

Foxhaven, no problem.

My 3 brothers are motorcyclists - trail and road. They're often here on the weekens, my Lacey ought to be used to it by now - she just has one loose screw and it's motorized vehicles. I never had a horse (mini or big) that had that kind of fear response, but I am still hoping she will tighten that screw down too





I'm glad it's non-motorized trail, or they'd be on it all the time. This way there are always a few that go anyways.

We had a good drive yesterday - didn't get into any power struggles (ok, I never pulled!) Had better harmony, went 2 miles total, got better stops and a couple of nicer tight turns. Hoping to hitch again today - it is beautiful!


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