# New Filly Dwarf????



## TPs flat rock acres

my mare just had her foal last night. As I am still learning I wasn't sure if this baby is just a small little girl or if she might be a dwarf and if she is what do I need to do in regards to care? thank you


----------



## Royal Crescent

Why, other then size, do you think she might be a dwarf? Do you have pictures?


----------



## Jill

Could you post pictures? She may just be small.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Well I am not sure as I know foals have to "unfold" but not sure to what degree. She looks very normal I think other then her front feet turn up some and so don't the rear feet. Again this is only my 5th baby and I know all babies are different esp if from better pedigrees etc I do have a photo just need to figure out how to repost as I haven't been on in awhile


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Ok I tried to post a photo but it didn't work can you refresh my mind on how to do it?


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

can someone please tell me how to post photos I have forgotten how to do it thank you or you can see her on my site at http://www.orientsprideakitas.net/minifoals.html


----------



## Genie

_From that picture on the website it seems that there may be some characteristics that are suspect. I am no expert._


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

I no expert but was thinking its odd. but again still learning. Do they usually come up on their feet more?


----------



## Jill

I'm trying to add the picture for you...


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

thank you for adding it


----------



## Jill

I think I do see indications, too.

With the feet, I haven't had any dwarf foals, but on other foals, we've had some "gumby" legs and feet that have improved rapidly within a matter of days. However, I think with dwarves, they can have more of an on going problem with limb issues.

Wishing you the best and hoping others here will have more insight and can help with advice.


----------



## Jill

PS to add the picture, all I did was cut and paste it from your link


----------



## Genie

_I have certainly seen foals "down" but maybe not just like she is._

_There are also a few other things from the picture that make me suspect some dwarf characteristics. She is a cutie._

_I hope some others will offer you an opinion and possibly contradict mine._


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Like I said I really don't know alot about horses but think I can see some things that might not quit be right. Looking at her in the flesh she seems pretty normal but her chest seems wider then my other foals mind you the others arent as good breeding as this ones suppose to be. . I bought this mare bred This foal is just hours old so hopefully in the next few days she will get better... at least I hope. If not what do you have to do with dwarfs? care wise?


----------



## Jill

I think she is adorable and if she is a dwarf, I'm thinking she isn't severely effected BUT I am not an expert in this area.

To me, what stood out is that she is a bit "thick" or big boned.

Also, just relating to my own experience, we have had foals here where before they unfolded, I had concerns if they could be a dwarf, too. None of them were. For whatever that is worth. She may just need some unfolding AND I know camera angles can also distort things. No matter what, though, she is cute cute cute


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

thank you yes she seems thick to me but again comparing her to the foals I have had she has better bloodline so I am not sure what excellent bred babies are suppose to look like. I love her head and her body seems to be nice legs straight from the side and I think would be straight if it wasn't for the feet but she has thick leather or feather not sure what you call it on her feet still but not sure what she will do when that wears off. I think if she can get up on her feet she will have very nice straight legs but chest I find thick and shes very stocky but not used to a very small foal. Her mom is about 32" tall sire I am not sure my other mares are about 34" tall so their babies weren't really that small a little on the taller side. I hope shes not a dwarf but hope she really is healthy and no problems.


----------



## Carolyn R

The angle of the photo is not great to judge her length of neck, head, or girth. A shot level to her of a side view with her head and neck straight forward and possibly a shot aiming straight on of her face,neck, chest and front legs, also from her level, would be more helpful to draw opinions from. Many times dwarves have the appearance of being little tanks, way more weight/muscling appearance to them than the average foal. Necks are often close to or the same size of the head when measures from pole (right behind the ears) to the tip of the nose, this can be accompanied by few to no other traits or tos of other medical issues.

I think there are many bloodlines that may or may not carry the gene, many not so good lines and also many good lines, until there is a genetic test, it will just keep us all guessing.

Have you had a vet out to do a foal check to make sure her lungs and heart sound good as well as possible making some suggestions such as vitamin E/selenium for her joints?


----------



## Mona

Cute foal! I think you may be right though, in thinking she may be a dwarf. From what I can see, she definitely has several suspect indicators. What I see when I look at that ONE photo, from that ONE angle that would make me suspect dwarf, is:


She appears weak in the fetlock joints. That in itself happens to many foals, but is quite prevalent in dwarfs. Usually normal foals come up on them rather quickly yet the dwarf foals seem to stay "down" on them much longer, and often indefinitely without corrective measures.

She also seems to have a "thick" build...that is, heavy boned.

She has what I consider, a more "bull-doggish" type chest, pushing her out at the elbows.

Short, thick neck.


This said, even with her problems, she appears to be one of the "healthier" type dwarf foals. You'll find that as time goes on, she'll develop that bigger belly that many have, and that is from having larger internal organs than their little body can hold without expanding so much. I think overall, as far as dwarfs are concerned, there's a good chance that she'll be one of the "healthier" ones, but will still require some extra care such as hooves, possibly teeth/feeding, as there is a good chance she's likely undershot too.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do with her.


----------



## Riverdance

The angle makes it a little more difficult to tell, but the first thing i saw was dwarf. She is thick bodied, short neck, big head, week legs and most of all, her nostrils are on top of her head, rather than forward. As she matures, the characteristics will become more and more apparent. I would get a farrier or vet out to help get her on her feet. Magic Shoes, you can find them on Lilbeginnings, makes shoes that will help get hr on her hooves. Still, she is a cutie.

Many of the top bloodlines carry the dwarf gene. Like the lethal white gene, we need a test to be able to know which Mini's carry the gene so that we make sure not to breed them together. To get a better idea of some of the top bloodline foals, go onto the owners and breeders pages to see what those foals look like.

Good luck with her, she will still make an adorable, affectionate pet.


----------



## Mona

Just to show you the change they can go through, here is one I had born here several years ago. When "Star" was born, I could immediately see she was much "clunkier" than a normal foal, and had that bull-doggy type chest/shoulder combination and short neck. I think we as breeders find it harder to identify these ones that are a little more minimally expressed at birth, than perhaps onlookers can see. We fall instantly in love with them, like they are our own, making it more difficult. I remember when Star was born. immediately thinking dwarf, but then going back and forth, argueing with myself whether she was actually a dwarf or if she just had poor conformation instead. I got to the point where I knew if I knew deep down that she wqas a dwarf and if I was questioning myself that strongly, she must be! (and I was right!)

When she was born, she looked fairly normal while still wet.






Then as she dried off and stood, I started noticing the signs that had me questioning her. This next set of photos were take of her when she was a few days old to a few weeks old.












Then this one at just a little over 2 months old:






And this one I think was sent later that Summer/Fall after she went to her new home.






So my point in posting these, was just sort of to let you know that sometimes we seem to know in our hearts that they are not "normal" but find it hard to accept unless they signs are BLARING OBVIOUS. This was the second dwarf foal born to this mare (2 different sires), and she was not used again for breeding.


----------



## stormy

Again, angles are not the best and so hard to tell on newborns unless they are very seriously affected but looks like she has some charateristics...also looks like her bite is off?? She is so very adorable though, with your farriers assistance I think those legs will straighten up over time.


----------



## Carolyn R

Mona, you are wonderful to post your personal experience and photos for reference!


----------



## ozymandias

It's hard to tell from the first picture because of the angle she's at but the second picture is way better. I think from her slightly roached back, off bite, large head and legs that she is a dwarf.


----------



## Tremor

Mona, could please post those pictures on the dwarf thread in the picture forum; that I have?

Thanks!


----------



## disneyhorse

What a cutie. I do think she's a dwarf.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

Mona, what an EXCELLENT series of pics!!! Thank you SO much for posting them. And yes, as Tremor suggested, please post them in the drarf thread on the pics page.

As for your little girl, I realize others have said "maybe" or "hard to say for sure" but I believe 100% that she is. But she is adorable!! Bless you for being concerned enough to ask. You are showing your commitment to these little ones and that you are serious about their needs and care. I wish you the best with her!!

Please give careful consiration if you decide to breed either the mare or stallion again. This little girl doesn't look to have some of the severe attributes of some, but the next one could and the foaling of an extreme dwarf is horribly traumatic on the mare and can even result in death of both the mare and foal.

I wish you the best. Hugs. And thank you for posting.


----------



## Carolyn R

Her front foot that is on the ground looks like it is more upright than the first photo, which is good, hopefully her back joints follow. However, based on her density at such an early stage, I would have to say in MHO, yes, she does display dwarf characteristics, she is precious regardless. Remember,while it is not what someone breeds for, if her dam has no issues accepting her, neither should anyone else, short of medical issues, many dwarves have the ability to work their way into the hearts of their caretakers, faults and all.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Heres another hope this is better very hard to take a good shot


----------



## Mona

Tremor, please feel free to copy the photos and upload them to the gallery that you put yours, and then use the text that I have provided in this thread to go with them. I clean photos off my server from time to time so they won't remain indefinitley, which was a requirement for your thread.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Yes my gut first thing was that man never had one but she has to be a dwarf. Being a dog breeder I think we don't need to be overly educated in another type of animal sometimes I think its gut and just knowing a little about animals in general. I just dont want her to be suffering. What can I do to make sure she might get up on her feet? I live in an area where vets and ferriers do minimal so hoping I can find someone that can help out. but the more I know myself what to do the more I can hopefully get things going better for her. As for her mother I am not sure what babies she has had before. The person who has had her before doesn't really give me alot of information about her so not happy about that. I know people can be busy but when someone has paid money for something whether it be dog or horse I feel that they should at least be available to answer quick questions. Kind of wondering if that is why the mare just got sold because of problems. Why don't people tell others that this came up or one has to watch out for this and that? We have that with dogs too. Seems people are afraid to mention things as they won't be able to sell the animal or people won't breed to the animal. In saying that since I bought this mare for her pedigree is she just a pet now?? no chance of producing any other baby for me in the future? Love to know more thank you for all your help its much appricated.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

And yes thank you Mona for sharing your photos I see alot of our baby in this one and first clue not just of the fillys feet (mine) was that chest. I just had that thought knowing minamul about horses that it wasn't really right in my eyes. thank you again for sharing


----------



## Riverdance

The side picture tells me that 100% she is a dwarf. Mona, those pictures are a wonderful education for people.

As for the owner before, that mare may have never had a dwarf foal before, and she may not ever again. She is a dwarf carrier though and obviously so is the stallion. In this case, it takes two to tango. I believe that a good portion of our Mini's carry the dwarf gene and even if both parents do, there is still only a 25% chance that the foal will be a dwarf. In the 14 years I have been breeding Mini's I have be fortunate not to have any, though my daughter did out of a mare who's sire was a very desirable stallion at that time.  I believe that with the size of my herd, some of them must be dwarf carriers, but I have just been lucky in that way. So, what I am saying is, the last owner may just not have known. Still she should return your calls for sure.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

any link to the special shoes?


----------



## Tremor

I feel the need to comment on this.

I have a couple dwarves and have had many more; don't be ashamed of them. Don't treat them less or like a dog. My dwarves have always been the smartest within the herd and nothing hinders them.

Just treat them like a horse and LOVE them. Don't be ashamed that you have one!

You can find the shoes by searching Lil' Bits horse shoes.

@Mona, I will add them when I get off work tonight. Thank you do much!!


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

Can someone post Bill and Wannalyn's contact info? For some reason I'm having a mental lapse and can't find it!!!



They are the right ones to help answer the poster's questions. They have a wealth of information on the care of these little sweeties! And they can help with fitting the shoes also.


----------



## REO

I have the link to MAGIC SHOES on my home page (click on my site link)


----------



## rabbitsfizz

Reo to the rescue- since your avatar looks like a masked person in a cape I think that very apt! (Psst Robin you still have a "tovero" in your wording)

I think your cute little foal is definitely a dwarf, and as others have said, you need to talk to Janell (Magic Shoes) or Bill and Wannalyn (everything dwarf!)

Tremor is also right, your baby seems fine, let her enjoy life and maybe think of finding her a home where she is cherished for who she is- if you cannot keep her do not beat yourself up, deciding to keep a foal you do not "need" is a huge commitment- working as I do on a shoestring, I know I would not have the time or the money to do it, so again, living up to your responsibilities is nothing to be ashamed of either.

Mona, THANK YOU, that has to be one of the best series of photos I have seen, very informative, very generous of you to put them out there, too.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Tremor said:


> I feel the need to comment on this.
> 
> I have a couple dwarves and have had many more; don't be ashamed of them. Don't treat them less or like a dog. My dwarves have always been the smartest within the herd and nothing hinders them.
> 
> Just treat them like a horse and LOVE them. Don't be ashamed that you have one!
> 
> You can find the shoes by searching Lil' Bits horse shoes.
> 
> @Mona, I will add them when I get off work tonight. Thank you do much!!


Thank you on this I am for sure not ashamed but just only want the best for this little girl. They are in the genes of some pedigrees so why would someone be ashamed and not admit they have had them or what ever. for me she is my first and proud of this little girl I just pray she has a healthy long life ahead of her. i will check the shoes out. Any special Care Tremor? Any information you can give me would greatly be appricated thank you so much


----------



## Mona

Just tend to her physical needs and let her be a horse. One thing though, I would not splint those feet/legs just yet. Let her try to use them. It may help to strengthen them. Allow her some natural time first, as by putting splints on only discourages the natural use and further debilitates the tendon making it even looser.

Do not baby/pamper her any more than you would any of your other horses, and don't allow her to get into any bad habits by allowing her to invade your space! In other words, first and foremost, she is a HORSE! A horse with special physical needs, but she is a horse and needs to respect you as the herd boss, and not her.

Thanks to eveyone for your kind comments on my photos. I am glad they are helpful/useful to many.


----------



## RockRiverTiff

Edited to reflect the removed reference.

Just wanted to pop in here and ask if the mare is registered? If so, someone could check her foaling history in the studbook and let you know what past foals she's had. I also wanted to say that while there are probably many stallions out there with that name, I'm a little leery about the woman simply telling you "Blank" is the sire, as there is a very well known stallion by that name. I'm not saying it's not possible he is the sire since we don't know the provenance of your mare, but I have never seen him associated with dwarfism before and doubt some of his past owners (including members of the forum) and current owners (which are a very well-respected show farm) would appreciate an unsubstantiated reference to that stallion in the context of dwarfism. While I agree with other forum members that dwarfism is something we need to be open about and that dwarfs deserve love and proper care the same as any other mini, I also think we have to be careful about where we point fingers since we all know how damaging such allegations can be.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

I am In no way putting any blame anywhere just want to know more about this baby and the care and whether I should even keep the mare that is all I am not the type of person to cut any farm, mare or stud down but I do like to know about things so I am not breeding problems hope that makes sense. I breed and show dogs so know how important it is to breed the best one can and do not want to breed a dog let alone horse with problems so just am trying to learn as much as I can that's all and mean no harm to anyone


----------



## RockRiverTiff

I completely understand. I think the thread has been very educational and will likely help a lot of other people in the future. I was just pointing out since you mentioned a name that that could be damaging to that horse's reputation. We all know the dwarf genes are pretty prevalent in the minis, and I myself am always curious about which lines are commonly associated with it, but with no test currently available for the gene I think naming names can sometimes turn into a witch hunt especially if there is no documentation that backs the claim.


----------



## Lizzie

I agree Tiffany. Just the sire known as 'Wardance', could affect many with horses by the same name. It is imperative, that the breeder of this foal, discovers just which Wardance was the sire. Hopefully, both the sire and dam are registered.

Dwarfism is (unfortunately) a given in this breed. Until there is a test for the various kinds of dwarfism, we will not be able to take the carriers, from the gene pool. I also think the OP's foal is a dwarf. What type and measure of difficulty, only time will tell. Obviously, neither the sire or dam should be bred again.

Maybe I'm alone here, but I do think, if any of us produce a dwarf, then it is up to us to be responsible for them, for life. If we absolutely cannot keep them, then the new owners must be thoroughly educated in dwarfism and all that it might entail in the future. I see so many dwarf Minis, ending up in public auctions, where those uneducated, purchase them to breed on. I think if a dwarf is to be placed, then the breeder _must_ keep in contact with the new owners, for the life of that foal and be willing to take it back at any time, should the new owner not be able to finance the often heavy vet bills, incurred.

The OP should contact the previous owner of the mare and encourage them not to breed from that stallion again. This is if they own him. If not, then she should contact the stud owner and inform them also, of the fact that he has indeed, produced a dwarf. This might not be met with friendliness, but she will know she has done her bit, to try to stem the tide of dwarfism. I belive the OP is also a dog breeder, so she will know what I mean. Twice in my life of dogs, I have had to tell a breeder of one of my dogs, she had something very nasty and genetic, in their breeding stock. Both times, it was met with, "You don't know what you are talking about." or "You are just wanting to ruin the reputation of my dogs." Ridiculous of course, but some will never be willing to admit that they have genetic problems, within their breeding stock.

There is no shame in producing a dwarf. The only shame, is keeping it hidden or selling dwarfs on, as being 'rare' etc. or dumping in auctions. Kudos, to those who readily admit their stock has produced dwarfs.

Lizzie


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Being a dog breeder I do know how important it is to know of problems and not to breed them. I am not fimilar with Dwarf minis other then seeing them but am trying to learn about them. I know the mare I bought bred is reg and have her pedigree. I do know now of many lines or pedigrees only have heard of one farm name and like the type of horses they produce but know nothing of problems in lines, I don't know breeders etc so a name is just a name to me right now but how is one able to learn if one doesn't ask questions?? I am by no means pointing fingers and know that being in dogs which I am sure its the same with horses some don't like to say they have problems because it could hurt lines. All I was doing is simply asking about a horse and what someone knows about him/ her. Heck I don't know much about the mare I have other then she is reg looks to be of good quality and was told she is a very nice mare by the person I bought her from but heck again being in dogs I know people can say what they want to make a sale to esp to someone who is just starting out. How does one find out about foals a mare has had? I have heard some say that just not to bred her to the same stallion again at this point I really dont know who the stallion is other then the person who I bought her from said she was bred to xxxx stallion and was expecting in March which March came and has gone. I am assuming when she was with the other person she wasn't with any other stallions but then again that is something I need to find out as well but I have emailed several times and just get replys that they will get back to me.... sure when? Seems some don't like to deal with the "small" people I dont know am learning and I guess learning the hard way.


----------



## RKG miniatures

I do think this is a dwarf. Give her a month and have her checked by a vet.


----------



## RockRiverTiff

TPs flat rock acres said:


> How does one find out about foals a mare has had?


If the mare has had registered foals, they will be listed under her name in either the AMHA or AMHR studbook, depending on how she is registered. I can do a lookup for you on the AMHA studbook if you want to PM me her registered name, and I'm sure someone else would be willing to check AMHR for you. Of course if she had a dwarf before it is unlikely that it was registered though some have slipped past the registries. If the woman you bought the mare from is not the owner of the previously mentioned stallion, then I think it's improbable that she was actually bred to him, though she may have been bred to one of his get or grandget, in which case then there are a whole host of other bloodlines that could have passed the dwarf gene to the sire (though once again I'm not saying it is impossible for a popular line to pass on a dwarf gene). Even in the case of your mare, who you now know carries at least one dwarf gene (the popular belief right now is that there are four separate types of dwarfism and that horses can carry genes for more than one), there is a good chance that many of her ancestors are *not *dwarf gene carriers, though at least one of her parents had to be in order for her to inherit the gene. A few years ago John Eberth came on and hosted a special dwarfism forum here on LB, and you can still see all the questions and answers if you go to "Dwarfism In Miniatures" off the main forum page. The dwarfism topic comes up on here often, and as of now because there is no test for the genes the decision of whether or not to rebreed your mare really comes down to how you feel about it. Some feel it is unethical to breed carriers as they have the potential to continue to pass the gene on to their foals while others feel that dwarfism is likely so prevalent in the breed that removing all carriers would be detrimental to the quality and diversity of the gene pool. I know it's a lot to take in, and I'm sorry that you had this experience so early on, but at least your mare and foal are healthy and you are being proactive about breeding responsibly.


----------



## Mona

RKG miniatures said:


> I do think this is a dwarf. Give her a month and have her checked by a vet.


Many vets are not knowledgeable enough in the Miniature Horse breed to even recognize a dwarf.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

I realize you are new to minis and you certainly are just trying to learn and not bad mouth anyone. I'm sure others realize this also. As for your reference to "wardance" there is a stallion with that name, or a derivation of (not spelled exactly like that) that has produced multiple dwarves and many, many folks know it. He is NOT, however, closely related to the "famous" Wardance, that as Tiff pointed out, has not, to my knowledge, EVER been associated with producing a dwarf foal. Maybe your little one is sired by the one that is known to produce them. As others have said, the miniature horse world is, sadly, pretty full of the gene. That doesn't make it acceptable to reproduce, just means we all have to be comitted to doing our share to stop the spread.

I agree with Mona's advice, let your little sweety try to strengthen those legs naturally and see if that doesn't do the trick. You may be pleasantly surprised!


----------



## cassie

I wanted to just quickly jump in here and offer you my support, your filly is SO cute! and I am sorry that she probably is dwarf but good on you for asking the tough questions and seeking the right answers.

Thank you to everyone who has posted on here, I have sure learnt alot from reading this thread.

I hope your little filly grows up to have a lovely long life with you or a special new owner.

Again well done to you and I hope and pray that all goes well with your sweet little filly






have you though of a name for her?


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

thank you Cassie what I am learning is the word dwarfism is I guess taboo which I didn't know but being a dog breeder and shower I am one that if I get into something I like to know things if I don't know something so when I saw my filly I had a gut that she was as having an eye in conformation of dogs and seeing so many beautiful minis and what I like that seeing things with her I knew it must not be right that is why I started seeking information and thought that is what forums are for. I know in dogs there are a lot of breeders that don't admit of problems as some dog breeders don't have or produce any problems and i am getting that impression it's like that in horses as well. again I really am just getting into horses mainly for my own self not to sell as its always been a dream of mine to have a herd of my own to just enjoy but certinly wasn't looking for problems or to cause any but have learn some with the birth of my little girl. hope they will come out with a test for it


----------



## minimomNC

As with any bloodline, there can be many dwarfs that you never hear about, don't mean they didn't happen, just means it was kept quite. Maybe if more breeders had been up front from the start, the industry as a whole would be better equiped to deal with dwarfs instead of making then something to hide.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

i agree minimomnc it's the same with my breed of dogs is a longcoated pup is produces some have put them down or if they have a problem with hips or auto immune they sweep it under the carpet sad but true


----------



## Jill

Mona said:


> Many vets are not knowledgeable enough in the Miniature Horse breed to even recognize a dwarf.


I think this is probably very true judging by remarks about vets I have read on LB.


----------



## Jill

minimomNC said:


> As with any bloodline, there can be many dwarfs that you never hear about, don't mean they didn't happen, just means it was kept quite. Maybe if more breeders had been up front from the start, the industry as a whole would be better equiped to deal with dwarfs instead of making then something to hide.


Tthe problem is that "from the start", breeders did not know the ins and outs of dwarves and at one time, used them to reduce size as they simply didn't know better. Without any ill intent, the situation was put into play.


----------



## Mona

minimomNC said:


> As with any bloodline, there can be many dwarfs that you never hear about, don't mean they didn't happen, just means it was kept quite. Maybe if more breeders had been up front from the start, the industry as a whole would be better equiped to deal with dwarfs instead of making then something to hide.


VERY, VERY well stated and "bang on"!!


----------



## Mona

Jill said:


> Tthe problem is that "from the start", breeders did not know the ins and outs of dwarves and at one time, used them to reduce size as they simply didn't know better. Without any ill intent, the situation was put into play.



That is true Jill, however, when the problem was being recognized in the beginning, they KNEW something was terribly wrong and would hide the "misfits" out "behind the barn" or do away with them at birth and not tell people about it.

What really bothers me, is that even today, people are still often made to feel ashamed of dwarfism in their bloodlines. So where, at what point does it become acceptable to mention the bloodlines of one's dwarf?? After the parents are dead? After the famous grandparents and great grandparents are dead?

I would think that if I bought a stallion that sired a dwarf, that no matter how famous his bloodlines were, or are in the show ring today, being the owner of that foal, I should have everty right to "tell it like it is" without being "shhhhhh'd" back into my corner. OR, if as in this case, I had bought a mare in foal, and a dwarf foal resulted, because I own that foal, I should be able to disclose the parents too, because it is the foal's pedigree which comes with buying a reg'd foal. (in this particular case, it sounds like no stallion service certificate was issued, but I am meaning in most cases where people are buying/selling reg'd horses) Sure, you can say the foal would not be reg'd, but again, not necessarily so...I have seen definite dwarfs that ARE reg'd, so yes, if you can get the angles just right on some of the more minimally affected ones, then I am betting they do get through quite often. And with DNA available, there would be no disputing who the parents are.

I personally feel that even today, some of the most famous, well known farms in the industry are NOT revealing the truth about dwarf foals born on their farms. Some do, and kudos to them. I think it's time for eveyone to come out of hiding!! I can't wait until that test becomes available!! That in itself will be the singlemost BEST thing that could ever happen to this breed!


----------



## Jill

Obviously, I do not condone the use of known dwarf producers but want to point out that in the beginning, breeders did not have the knowledge and insight that we do now. Nothing more, nothing less was meant by my post. event

I don't really like the veiled references either. I'd like to know the the names of the well know breeders that are hiding these outcomes, and fully understand that cannot be done on a public forum. But the vagueness isn't a good feeling, either.


----------



## wcr

We have a term in the medical field, "FLK", funny looking kid. It means you look at a kid and something just doesn't look right and that is what you did with your little girl. She just didn't look right to you and your gut instinct was right on. That said, dwarves have the most wonderful personalities and you just got to love them.

When I first got into minis I leased a herd of mares and one came bred and I foaled her out here. She had a dwarf who just endeared himself to everyone. He was minimal dwarf and got a respiratory infection at about 1-2 months old and we did a chest xray on him. It showed he had strictures in his windpipe and his heart was shoved way up almost between his front legs and pretty constricted. He got over his infection and has gone on to have a healthy, happy life and well cared for. Knowing about the strictures, we took him into the vet hospital to be gelded and had intubation equipment standing by in case he needed it but he sailed through without problems.

On the other hand I did have a dwarf born here from my stock with no history of dwarfism on either side as we know multiple generations and no other dwarf came from those lines. He was a severe dwarf and it hurt your heart to look at him. Mom rejected him and he was so sweet and tried so hard but we put him down the next morning. That was a traumatic experience putting down an innocent foal that had done nothing wrong but have an accident of birth.


----------



## Riverrose28

First of all, Welcome back, I've missed you! Sorry this has happened to you, but as others have said she will be very special indeed, as I have one that is 7 yrs. young and very loving.

My question to anyone that can answer is this: As a reputable breeder what is the protocal to follow when you are faced with this situation? Do you notify the registries?

Yes I know you don't rebred the carriers, or as in my case, I didn't register mine, but was wondering what else to do.


----------



## Mona

There is nothing you CAN do...no sense in contacting the registries, as nothing they can do either. AMHA won;t register a foal if they feel it is a dwarf, but some still sneak through. AMHR...I am not sure on where they stand now, but because they were more in the "dark ages" and did not require the photos, and never had anything (as far as I know) pertaining to registering/rejecting of dwarfs, many more got through into that registry. I don;t know where they stand on that now that photos are required. BUT, even if you do contact them, they do not deny any reg'd horse any rights because of their producing of dwarf foals.


----------



## Riverrose28

Thank you Mona for your response. Seems like there should be some kind of report if for nothing else to identify which lines are carriers. I've been with minis since the 90"s and don't know all the lines that carry this, so I can see how a new breeder wouldn't have any idea.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

i s there sign that parents have that might indicate they might produce them


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Riverrose28 said:


> Thank you Mona for your response. Seems like there should be some kind of report if for nothing else to identify which lines are carriers. I've been with minis since the 90"s and don't know all the lines that carry this, so I can see how a new breeder wouldn't have any idea.


how are you?




what I feel bad about is that are these problems left for the new comers? I have boughten a few mares paid extra because they were bred only to have overly fat mares one told me the wrong age and one mare I think has something going on with her eye as it is hazy i thought I was buying nice horses that were decent quality only to possibly get throw back for one reason or another how does a new comer know who to trust


----------



## Riverrose28

The answer to that question is yes and no. The pair that we bred together didn't show any signs at all! I also have a mare that has a domed head, but has had two beautiful foals but bred to a refined stallion, I do think if I bred her to a short stocky one it may turn out different, but I won't do that, in fact I'm not breeding anymore. Some say there are signs, like elbows out, low set necks, broad shoulders, domed head. Maybe someone else will chime in with more knowledge. I do think that breeding has improved in the last 10 or 15 years and more people are not breeding the really small stocky type, but whose to say that is the only type that carrys? No one will ever know until there is a test, or if someone takes action and starts requiring that dwarf foals be reported to the registries once a stallion report is sent it.


----------



## MindyLee

AWWWWWWWWWW!!! Regardless if she is or not, at least shes healthy looking.

Congrats on a good delivery even if shes not 100% perfect conformation.

At least she has a good mommy who is aware of dwarfisum.


----------



## Riverrose28

I'm going to PM you!


----------



## rabbitsfizz

I gelded the horse in my Avatar, a beautiful blanket Appy to boot, because the test for Dwarfism failed to materialise (I had waited four years) and his grandsire is a dwarf. His sire has thrown no dwarfs, his dam has no dwarfs in her pedigree, but as a stallion he could, in theory, have sired up to fifty potential carriers a year (OK, so few of us actually breed this many, I am talking theory) and I was just not willing to take the chance. He shows NO signs whatsoever (he is a show horse) his sire shows NO signs whatsoever (also a show horse) but it is, potentially, in there.

The thing that annoys me the most about dwarfism (after we have overcome the helplessness and the heartbreak) is that I am pretty sure if a few more people with some serious money could throw some of it into the research it could be sorted. Then, of course, we would have to actually get the registries to insist on mandatory testing and eventual removal form the gene pool.

What do we actually have?

People who say it's OK to breed the pair again, just not to one another!!!!

We had a similar situation with Von Willebrands in Dobes, and testing was, thank goodness, found almost immediately. That did not stop people ignoring the problem for a bit. It was also said that if we were to act on the testing we would have no gene pool left but you know what? That was over 25 years ago and the Dobe is still here, and most, if not all reputable breeders insist on their sire and dam being tested, and the resultant pups being tested before being cleared to breed (not sure if your KC allows you to withold breeding status, ours does) the KC did NOTHING!

I think we can forget our registries doing much, too.

If we breed, we have the responsibility to say when this happens, and not be ashamed of it. The support people get when somehting like this happens , on this Forum, warms my heart, it really does.


----------



## ohmt

I so agree Jane!


----------



## rabbitsfizz

I meant to say that the people that breed the most, obviously, have the potential at least to have the most dwarfs, that is why I feel it is they who should be interested in actually finding a test, but of course, I am just being naive, I guess!! So much easier to just bury the evidence (in every way) and get on with the real business of selling...... (ARGH, sorry, CYNIC warning!!)


----------



## ohmt

I agree with you regarding that as well. I find it frustrating that there is such a lack of a funding when it comes to the tests. You would think that our registries would be trying their very best to make sure that it has all the funding it needs-maybe send out pamphlets to people and have an option on their work order forms for donations. Put in a few ads in their magazines, but I've never seen any. Many years ago I think one of them ran a dwarfism article in their magazine and then asked for dna samples for the tests, but that's it. I think we could have had the tests a while ago if the funding was there.


----------



## RockRiverTiff

Just wanted to come on and clarify again that I am NOT one of the people asking that this issue be "swept under the rug" nor was I shushing the OP. I think anyone that breeds minis does so with some fear of the dreaded "D" word. Just as an example, I spoke to a person last year that had a dwarf. The sire had three of the most popular bloodlines in his pedigree, among others. That person now believes that all of those lines are dwarf carriers. I'm guessing a lot of people would object to that assumption, but without a test obviously we can't prove anything either way. That is the only reason I think that it's dangerous to start naming names - because without a test every name in a carrier's pedigree is implicated.

I would dearly love to have a test that would remove some of the fear and uncertainty, but I do believe that many people would be against it. As some have already pointed out, many popular lines have been implicated in association with the dwarf gene. A test would reveal the truth, and any big farms built around those lines would undoubtedly lose some of their market as many breeders would exclusively seek out non-carriers. If the heavy-hitters aren't on board, I don't know how you could convince the registries to start recording information or funding research, but I wish it was more of a priority.


----------



## Riverdance

I have a question... those of you who breed pintos check for the Lethal white gene. If your horse carries it, would you not use it for breeding? I think that most of you still use the horse for breeding. Would not the dwarf gene be the same?

I am one of those that truly believes that if there is ever a test for the dwarf gene, we will find that a great portion of the Mini population carries this gene. Would we not then, have to make sure that we do not breed a carrier to a carrier? If only 25% of foals born become carriers, then we could possibly slowly breed this out, without destroying the gene pool. I too am and have been a dog breeder for over 40 years. The last 35 years with Tibetan Terriers. There was a time that we had lots of dentalia problems, but over the years, most of us have been able to breed that out without loosing the gene pool. As well as some breeders have now added other problems to the gene pool going after the almighty championship.

We all have to be careful how we breed, but we also have to worry about the gene pool.

Again, I have never had a dwarf and with 14 years of breeding my lines, you would think I would have, but I am still convinced that some of my horses are carriers and that I have just been lucky.

So like the lethal white gene, we would have to selectively breed and not breed till we know if our horse carries the gene or not.


----------



## ohmt

Until there are tests, Riverdance, no known carriers should be bred IMO. If there are tests, then I think it is up to the breeder, but I think we need to remember that a recessive dwarf gene can "fight" the dominant gene and present a characteristic or two on the carrier or future carriers they produce. Whether someone thinks those characteristics are "ok" is up to them.



> Just wanted to come on and clarify again that I am NOT one of the people asking that this issue be "swept under the rug" nor was I shushing the OP. I think anyone that breeds minis does so with some fear of the dreaded "D" word. Just as an example, I spoke to a person last year that had a dwarf. The sire had three of the most popular bloodlines in his pedigree, among others. That person now believes that all of those lines are dwarf carriers. I'm guessing a lot of people would object to that assumption, but without a test obviously we can't prove anything either way. That is the only reason I think that it's dangerous to start naming names - because without a test every name in a carrier's pedigree is implicated


I agree, Tiff!


----------



## Hosscrazy

Here's the link to Janell's website - she is incredibly knowledgeable and passionate about helping the little ones.

http://www.littlemagicshoes.com/

I co-owned a mare with a local breeder in my area, and the mare we owned together had a dwarf. The co-owner of the mare decided to keep breeding the mare, and it resulted in me not only ending the partnership, but also got me out of breeding altogether. Best wishes with your little one - Janell is the BEST and she sure can help you out..

Liz N.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

ohmt said:


> I agree with you regarding that as well. I find it frustrating that there is such a lack of a funding when it comes to the tests. *You would think that our registries would be trying their very best to make sure that it has all the funding it needs*-maybe send out pamphlets to people and have an option on their work order forms for donations. Put in a few ads in their magazines, but I've never seen any. Many years ago I think one of them ran a dwarfism article in their magazine and then asked for dna samples for the tests, but that's it. I think we could have had the tests a while ago if the funding was there.


The registries, in general, only want what "we" want, the collective membership. And the collective membership is generally "run" by the largest of the breeders/showers/whatever the registry in question encompasses. Many, not all, of those larger breeders would be put out of business in short order if testing was prevelent. Even if not required by the registries, those looking to buy and looking to only produce the best of the best, would insist horses they were considering purchasing were tested. So over time, those farms would lose their clientele. Of course, this is just my opinion and just my interpretation of the situation. And of course not all "large" farms would be hesitant of the testing. I'm sure some would welcome it as I would.



RockRiverTiff said:


> Just wanted to come on and clarify again that I am NOT one of the people asking that this issue be "swept under the rug" nor was I shushing the OP. I think anyone that breeds minis does so with some fear of the dreaded "D" word. Just as an example, I spoke to a person last year that had a dwarf. The sire had three of the most popular bloodlines in his pedigree, among others. That person now believes that all of those lines are dwarf carriers. I'm guessing a lot of people would object to that assumption, but without a test obviously we can't prove anything either way. That is the only reason I think that it's dangerous to start naming names - because without a test every name in a carrier's pedigree is implicated.
> 
> I would dearly love to have a test that would remove some of the fear and uncertainty, but I do believe that many people would be against it. As some have already pointed out, many popular lines have been implicated in association with the dwarf gene. A test would reveal the truth, and any big farms built around those lines would undoubtedly lose some of their market as many breeders would exclusively seek out non-carriers. If the heavy-hitters aren't on board, I don't know how you could convince the registries to start recording information or funding research, but I wish it was more of a priority.


Ditto!

Personally, if there was a test, I'd test every single breeding horse (or prospect) on my farm and then I'd advertise the heck out of the results! I'd also remove any carriers from my herd and be open about them testing positive. But you all already know that as I don't just talk it, I've walked it! Did it cost me a ton of money? Yep! But I think the breed is better off for it.

Someone said in another thread, and I'm paraphrasing here, that some "well-known" horses were producers and if they had been removed from the gene pool we'd have missed out on so many national champions, etc. No we wouldn't have! That's malarky! Another horse would have been named with that title and who knows...maybe we'd be better off today! Again, speculation on my part, but it's a line of thinking I've believed for a LONG time. I think we'd have been MUCH better off and farther ahead in the quality of the breed if the mindset had been to remove those producers and not just avoid that particular mare/stallion pairing again.

My two cents. I'll try to get off my soap box now!lol


----------



## ohmt

Great post, Parmela!



> The registries, in general, only want what "we" want, the collective membership. And the collective membership is generally "run" by the largest of the breeders/showers/whatever the registry in question encompasses. Many, not all, of those larger breeders would be put out of business in short order if testing was prevelent. Even if not required by the registries, those looking to buy and looking to only produce the best of the best, would insist horses they were considering purchasing were tested. So over time, those farms would lose their clientele.


In my naivety I didn't even think about that! I had just assumed that those people would want to know who their carriers are to keep from producing the dwarves that they "hide".


----------



## targetsmom

I wonder if there would be more funding for the test, and less resistance to it (yes, I do think there is resistance from some places) if we looked at the glass as half full instead of half empty. By that I mean call it a test for "minis that are free of the dwarf gene". No stigma attached there, just a boost in value!!! I also believe that is exactly how we should look at the testing. And like Riverdance, I support the idea of treating dwarfism the same way lethal white in pintos is treated. You don't eliminate all the frame overo horses just because they carry a potentially fatal gene. Because there IS a test, you just test possible carriers and don't breed two carriers together.

But dwarfism is not that simple, because as I understand it there are now thought to be at least 5 forms - a new one discovered recently??? So a horse might carry the gene for one type but would be safe to breed to a horse carrying another type - meaning they would not be able to produce a DWARF, but of course could pass on the gene. And this is likely what is happening now, without a test, and why there are likely a lot of carriers in relation to the number of actual dwarfs produced.


----------



## Mona

Riverdance, I do think along the same lines as you when it comes to a test being avaialble. I think the test can be VERY ueseful in the careful management/breeding practices to avoid dwarfs, once we know for sure who carries, and who doesn't. Unfortunately, I got out of minis before the test ever became a reality, but I so hope it soon is an option. I would most definitely have all my breeding horses tested, and would not be too hasty in making any decisions long term on how I would react to the results. I am not sure if I would totally remove the stock from my herd, or of I would breed selectively...that would have to be determined at the time. I guess it really would rely on the results that are uncovered by the testing, once available. This said however, I DO know that if buying, I would only buy non-carriers.

I guess the difference in comparing the testing to that of LWO, is that with LWO, the resulting LWO foal dies...survival of the fittest so to speak, whereas with the dwarf gene, the dwarf can live, thus a greater potential for it being bred by unscrupulous owners. Yes, there are still the same percentages of "carriers" whether it be LWO or dwarfs, so the risk of those remain the same.

There is just no easy answer for me until they actually have the test available, and I guess for me, it matters not PERSONALLY anymore, since I no longer have minis, but I contiunue to hope and pray this breed can be saved by having that test available some day. It may even be what is needed to raise the value of the Miniature Horse once again.


----------



## ohmt

> But dwarfism is not that simple, because as I understand it there are now thought to be at least 5 forms - a new one discovered recently??? So a horse might carry the gene for one type but would be safe to breed to a horse carrying another type - meaning they would not be able to produce a DWARF, but of course could pass on the gene. And this is likely what is happening now, without a test, and why there are likely a lot of carriers in relation to the number of actual dwarfs produced.


Hmmm...I thought I read that John thought maybe a couple of the "types" were actually two of the others combined? I'll have to go back and reread that as I could have read/interpreted incorrectly.

Yes, there are 5 types, but the new one discovered is a severe, early abortion type.


----------



## REO

Riverdance said:


> I have a question... those of you who breed pintos check for the Lethal white gene. If your horse carries it, would you not use it for breeding? I think that most of you still use the horse for breeding. Would not the dwarf gene be the same?


To me, it isn't the same thing. LWO is a pinto pattern. A horse that carries it is healthy and does no harm in passing it's single copy of that gene on, if bred to a tested not carrier. In that reguard, the pinto pattern is harmless.

But dwarves.......it is known that they have breathing problems, organ problems, leg problems, etc etc etc. And in MOST cases don't live very long lives. It is not the same as a pinto pattern being passed on.

It takes 2 carriers to make a dwarf. But those people that just breed the KNOWN carrier to a different horse.......well that carrier is still, *at times* passing on that dwarf gene to their normal looking offspring. They sell those carriers to unsuspecting buyers, who then have dwarves pop up in their programs. Or even if the buyers don't, they are then spreading the dwarf gene on and on and on. (without knowing it because the seller didn't mention that)

Years before I had a computer or any knowledge about dwarves, we bought a bred mare who had a dwarf. NOT KNOWING anything about them, I bred her to my stallion and that foal was normal & sold as a pet. I later sold the mare and she went on to have another dwarf. She was a nice looking mare with no outward traits and came from a farm that is known. After later learning about dwarves......if I could go back in time I would have sold her to a pet home or something where she wouldn't be bred any more. But I didn't know then what I know now.

There are many people who DO know yet keep breeding known carriers together or to others. IMO that is not doing the miniature horse breed any favors.


----------



## horsehug

Yes ohmt, you are correct that the most recently discovered one by John is an early abortion type. The type 4 one is also one that does not make it to viability.

All of the ones we see that are alive are type 1 or 2 or 3, or a combination of types 1 or 3 or 4 or 5.

It is fairly complicated though.

Type 2 which is the normal body and head with short legs and is on one gene.

The other 4 types (types 1,3,4, and 5) are all on one gene.

Here are some quotes from John.

"Any parent carrying a single copy of 1,3,4,0r 5 combined in any other way with another carrier of any other 1,3,4,5 can make a dwarf. So you have homozygous dwarfs of the same mutation, and heterozygous dwarfs with two copies of mutations just different mutations."

"Only type five is viable in heterozygous form in combination with 1 or 3, when combined with type 4 the 4/5 combination is lethal as well."

I have been asking him questions about dwarfism for about 9 years now. And I am soo grateful for all his time and dedication he has put into this. He was close to having some of his tests available when he found that 5th type last year. He still has hopes of having most if not all of them available to the public in the not too distant future. It is hard to be patient sometimes but then I think of all the hard work he has put in while also running a miniature horse ranch and a training facility also!

Since this forum is always adding more members and newcomers I thought I'd post the link to a thread on this forum from a few years ago about John's work and the Little King Perspective which I also highly respect.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=51169&st=0

Susan O.


----------



## Riverdance

REO said:


> To me, it isn't the same thing. LWO is a pinto pattern. A horse that carries it is healthy and does no harm in passing it's single copy of that gene on, if bred to a tested not carrier. In that reguard, the pinto pattern is harmless.
> 
> But dwarves.......it is known that they have breathing problems, organ problems, leg problems, etc etc etc. And in MOST cases don't live very long lives. It is not the same as a pinto pattern being passed on.
> 
> It takes 2 carriers to make a dwarf. But those people that just breed the KNOWN carrier to a different horse.......well that carrier is still, *at times* passing on that dwarf gene to their normal looking offspring. They sell those carriers to unsuspecting buyers, who then have dwarves pop up in their programs. Or even if the buyers don't, they are then spreading the dwarf gene on and on and on. (without knowing it because the seller didn't mention that)
> 
> Years before I had a computer or any knowledge about dwarves, we bought a bred mare who had a dwarf. NOT KNOWING anything about them, I bred her to my stallion and that foal was normal & sold as a pet. I later sold the mare and she went on to have another dwarf. She was a nice looking mare with no outward traits and came from a farm that is known. After later learning about dwarves......if I could go back in time I would have sold her to a pet home or something where she wouldn't be bred any more. But I didn't know then what I know now.
> 
> There are many people who DO know yet keep breeding known carriers together or to others. IMO that is not doing the miniature horse breed any favors.


Reo,

With The LWO, you can get a dead foal with two frame parents, but they also pass the gene along, just like the dwarf gene. Yes, the LWO results in a dead foal and the dwarf gene can result in a live foal that someone might think is cute and want to breed it. My concern is that we might find out that most of the Mini's carry the dwarf gene (that is how we got the tiny horse in the first place) and then where will the Mini's be if we do not carefully breed them to try and breed this out. Just because one has never had a dwarf, does not mean that their horses are not carrying the gene, just that so far we have been lucky. I don't know, just food for thought. I would probably not breed a horse again who produced a dwarf, but until we can test our horses, no one can say for sure what they would do.


----------



## REO

That's why I said "A horse that carries it is healthy and does no harm in passing it's single copy of that gene on, *if bred to a tested* *not carrier*. In that reguard, the pinto pattern is harmless."

My point in it not being the same is because it's a pinto pattern and because there IS a test so breeders know





And I agree with you! I also wish there were testing available!


----------



## ohmt

Thanks so much, Susan! Very educational


----------



## RKG miniatures

_My farrier used an expoxy to build up my dwarfs hoof and it lasted for over a year. He trimmed it every 8 weeks and he moves wonderfully. It worked so well that when I gave him to a new owner, the farrier didn't realize it was the same horse until she mentioned the name of the horse._


----------



## Mona

REO said:


> That's why I said "A horse that carries it is healthy and does no harm in passing it's single copy of that gene on, *if bred to a tested* *not carrier*. In that reguard, the pinto pattern is harmless."
> 
> My point in it not being the same is because it's a pinto pattern and because there IS a test so breeders know


Riverdance was also inferring that if there was a test available it would be the same thing as the way we are now testing for LWO and breeding selectively to ensure it is not doubled up on, so you are both saying the same thing...that it would be safe to breed a carrier to a TESTED non-carrier whether it be for LWO or Dwarf.


----------



## REO

Yes, no dwarves would result in that case, but dwarf carriers would still be spread. That's all I was saying





There would still be those that don't care or breed grade horses and those carriers being out there and still being made, well...... I was just trying to say that it would be nice if carriers were slowed down or stopped in the "breed".

I did see her point. I was not disagreeing with her, I was making one of my own that was different.





You left off the last part of my post where I agreed with her



LOL

I'd love to see tests!!


----------



## rabbitsfizz

I agree that LWO is a different thing- for a start it actually carries something that we _want _ie the pattern, whereas dwarfism does not. You do not reduce size with a dwarf- you get a dwarf or a normal foal. It is erroneous to think that dwarfism is the reason our horses are small, it is not, it is selective breeding that has done it, and the use of smaller stock each time. Dwarfism is not a necessary trait, and should be eradicated as soon as possible.

On a previous note, as someone who was once accused of being capable of gelding Buckeroo, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed. If Buckeroo had been gelded we would still have the Miniature Horse and we would still have families like the Eberths breeding them- they would still be just as good, just as sound, just as pretty. We would just never have known about Buckeroo (except maybe as a top show gelding)


----------



## Mona

REO said:


> Yes, no dwarves would result in that case, but dwarf carriers would still be spread. That's all I was saying
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There would still be those that don't care or breed grade horses and those carriers being out there and still being made, well...... I was just trying to say that it would be nice if carriers were slowed down or stopped in the "breed".
> 
> I did see her point. I was not disagreeing with her, I was making one of my own that was different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You left off the last part of my post where I agreed with her
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> I'd love to see tests!!


All I was saying, is that you were saying the same thing as she was, and still are, and that is, that either way, whether it be LWO (which will kill the resulting foal if it receives 2 copies) or Dwarfism, (IF it holds true the theory they see now, that after testing is available, that they inherit one gene from each parent, which creates a dwarf) will still send on the gene to future generations and the only sure way to avoid it would be to stop breeding it altogether, because those that go untested, can still pass it on. The Same holds true for the LWO. I am NOT saying this is right or wrong, I am saying that MY PERSONAL opinion as well as Riverdance's, is that it is just something else to consider when the testing becomes available, because it could be avoided to the same degree, with selective breeding.

Now the point that Jane makes, does look at it from a different perspective, and likely one we ALL agree on. Thanks Jane for putting into words what many of us are thinking along the lines of but no clear way to say it. LOL!

Oh, and Robin, I left the last part of your post off in the last one, because that was not the part that I was responding to.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

I am learning so this is just a question but to me it's just as heart breaking to know one is LWO be waiting 11 months to only have a dead foal. the point is whether its right or wrong to be keeping such animals in a breeding program if breeders were just honest then it could help keep it at least under control instead of buyers not knowing spending hard earned money on whAt they hope is something they can build their foundation on. as with dogs and I am pretty sure it's like that with horses is that their are so many with problems doesn't matter if one throws bad bites, bad conformation, not sure if horses can produce Cryptorchidism but many other problems that can put a road block into ones future. it really really gets me mad that with the mare I have that I might have to think of having her only as a pet. I feel the person I get her from should make good on it. do breeders/seller not have to be accounted for what they sell as being faulty?? I hate when people that are big names tack advantage of those just starting or even anyone. if it comes to being about money and making the sale they should be held responsible if something negative comes up with a horse (genetic) I have a 2 yr health contract do they not have this with horses? from what I know my mare has had a foal in 08 which I am guessing was normal from photos looking at finding more information but really this situation why should it be at my expense?


----------



## HGFarm

She absolutely appears to be a dwarf to me- thick body, short neck, heavy bones, short weak legs, domey head with underbite and nostrils are sort of high. I would never breed this foals dam back to the same stallion. I am sure that more Minis carry a dwarf gene than we even know- but depends on whether the mare also exhibits any characteristics. ??


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

i don't think my mare does and the photo of her filly I saw had long legs and was very pretty. I would never breed back to the stallion and don't kow why anyone would want to knowingly try for another. as cute as she is my heart breaks for her future and can only hope she has a pretty normal and happy life


----------



## Bess Kelly

Yes, there are VERY well known (if you mentioned the names) show winners who have produced dwarves !

It isn't what a breeder wants but, it happens. I have had the opportunity to have seen and handled some young ones and the ONE THING that has been apparent, if there was a question when looking, is that they feel like a chunk of lead when you pick them up. A young foal that is birth to a week can be picked up and is normally quite flexible and relatively light weight .... a wet dishrag type. Any dwarf that I have handled is more like a wadded up chunk of tight feeling muscle. Think wet towel in a plastic bag....very heavy for size, little flexibility when contained in a bag. Have birth hundreds of small foals and this dramatic (!!) difference in the 8-10 dwarf ones (not mine) I have handled just haunts me. A little "tank", yes.

And, all their lives they carry this weight factor, even the "minimally" malformed. Like knotted muscle........for lack of better explanation.

I wish they did have genetic testing -- we could all feel better, do better and improve breeding outcomes.


----------



## Tremor

To the OP any updates on the foal?


----------



## Carolyn R

To answer your question, yes, crypts most deffinately exist in horses and mini's. Having a LWO foal is preventable by testing the parents, where as dwarfism has no test so it can virtually pop up anywhere. As others have said, until a test exists, being diligent about ones program is all one can do, and there is no gaurantees with that either.

As far as gaurantees, many breeders offer to allow a purchaser to do a pre purchase exam, and encourage it. Many breeders will gaurantee an animal healthy at the time of sale, if a colt is to be used as a stud, they may include a contract based on fertility ( with offing money back and allowing one to keep the horse, or allowing a purchaser to "exchange" horse for farm credit, the details are usually spelled out). Many times it is taken into consideration when purchasing young stock that they may never pan out and it is a gamble, that is why a colt is typically less than a well proven stallion.

As far as making good on a sale, that is something that is up to a breeder and what they are willing to do, as far as health gauantees, there are so many things that can go wrong with a horse, I think beyond 30 days of a sale, it would be hard to enforce, horses get stressed and get ulcers, contract viruses, get injured, ferriers that are unfamiliar with minis trim them incorrectly causing joint issues, then there is always the argument that outside issues caused the birth defect/dwarfism(unlikely, but until there is a test it is always an argument). All you can do is talk to them, see if they would be willing to give you a farm credit on another mare, it is highly unlikely they will give you cash back. As far as purchasing mares, when I was breeding, I always purchased the horse on what I saw in front of me, never on what it was carrying or bred to, there are no gaurantees that a mare wouldn't abort, have a horrible distocia, foal born with issues, or for that fact, would be born healthy but go down hill and crash.


----------



## ozymandias

TPs flat rock acres said:


> i don't think my mare does and the photo of her filly I saw had long legs and was very pretty. I would never breed back to the stallion and don't kow why anyone would want to knowingly try for another. as cute as she is my heart breaks for her future and can only hope she has a pretty normal and happy life


Your mare carries the dwarf gene too even though she has no characteristics. To produce a dwarf both parents have to be carriers. If you bred her to a non carrier she would never produce another but as we have no test for that yet - you'll potentially be producing a dwarf any time you breed her. If it were me I wouldn't breed her again knowing she carries the dwarf gene until there is a test and you can guarantee the stallion you choose is a non carrier.


----------



## Riverdance

Mona said:


> Riverdance was also inferring that if there was a test available it would be the same thing as the way we are now testing for LWO and breeding selectively to ensure it is not doubled up on, so you are both saying the same thing...that it would be safe to breed a carrier to a TESTED non-carrier whether it be for LWO or Dwarf.



Thank you Mona, exactly what I was saying, but you said it better.


----------



## slv

I really have to give the OP credit for being new to minis and recognizing right away that this foal is a dwarf. I know personally of some people that have been in the business for 11-12 years and have no idea that some of their foals are dwarfs. They show photos of them and say how beautiful they are and that they intend to repeat the breeding. And don't try telling them that they are a dwarf, they don't want to hear it. So, honestly, kudos to you for recognizing this and going further to educate yourself on it. I am so sorry that this happened to you. It is a risk that we all run when breeding the minis. I purchased a really cute 29 inch mare about six years ago and she was in foal. The resulting foal was a dwarf filly, much more severe than yours. She had leg problems and breathing problems. In hindsight I should have had her put down right away, but I didn't. She nursed well and waddled along side her dam the best she could, but she progressively got worse and her breathing was really bad. It was very apparent that she was in pain. Our vet recommended putting her down and after watching her try to get up and move and realizing that she was going downhill very quickly, I agreed. I gave her mother away to some friends as a pasture mate to their gelding. She is still there. I did tell the person that I purchased her from, but didn't really expect anything in return. The miniature horses business is like a game in ways, sometimes you make good moves and other times you make some not so good moves, or at least that is the way I look at it. I would think that it would be every breeders nightmare to sell a bred mare and have it deliver a dwarf foal. I do think your filly looks as though she will be able to have a decent life, at least for a dwarf. Not at all like the poor little one that I had. Again, kudos to you for educating yourself on the subject and acknowledging that she is a dwarf. Best of luck.


----------



## Riverdance

REO said:


> Yes, no dwarves would result in that case, but dwarf carriers would still be spread. That's all I was saying
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> There would still be those that don't care or breed grade horses and those carriers being out there and still being made, well...... I was just trying to say that it would be nice if carriers were slowed down or stopped in the "breed".
> 
> I did see her point. I was not disagreeing with her, I was making one of my own that was different.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> You left off the last part of my post where I agreed with her
> 
> 
> 
> LOL
> 
> I'd love to see tests!!



REO, In a way we are agreeing with what I am saying, but the LWO gene is passed on too and in order to not get one, we must test and make sure that we are not breeding two positives, as I hope we will soon be able to do in Dwarfs. Still, there are people who will breed dwarfs to make small babies, and there are people out there that will breed positive LWO to positive LWO or will not even test their horses before they breed. The results are still the same, dead foal or one who has to suffer for a couple of days, or dead dwarf or one who has to suffer. With the LWO, there are many VERY ignorant breeders out there. I had one tell me that they bred a Tobiano to a Tobiano and got a pure white foal. She said she had it for a couple of weeks and then put it down because it must be a lethal white. Their way of putting it down was to shoot it in the head. Some people are so ignorant and a lovely foal lost its life to this kind of ignorance.


----------



## Riverdance

rabbitsfizz said:


> I agree that LWO is a different thing- for a start it actually carries something that we _want _ie the pattern, whereas dwarfism does not. You do not reduce size with a dwarf- you get a dwarf or a normal foal. It is erroneous to think that dwarfism is the reason our horses are small, it is not, it is selective breeding that has done it, and the use of smaller stock each time. Dwarfism is not a necessary trait, and should be eradicated as soon as possible.
> 
> On a previous note, as someone who was once accused of being capable of gelding Buckeroo, I agree wholeheartedly with the sentiments expressed. If Buckeroo had been gelded we would still have the Miniature Horse and we would still have families like the Eberths breeding them- they would still be just as good, just as sound, just as pretty. We would just never have known about Buckeroo (except maybe as a top show gelding)


Unfortunately, many dwarfs were used over the years in the Miniature horse breeding program. I know some very famous ones. One I actually saw in person and was really surprised as he was so popular. Remember, there was a time when breeding small to small was all that was done and most desirable. There are many minimal dwarfs with only some of the dwarf traits. Most people do not know what a dwarf looks like, thus this page and the Einstein page. Even many Mini breeders can not agree what is a dwarf.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

slv said:


> I really have to give the OP credit for being new to minis and recognizing right away that this foal is a dwarf. I know personally of some people that have been in the business for 11-12 years and have no idea that some of their foals are dwarfs. They show photos of them and say how beautiful they are and that they intend to repeat the breeding. And don't try telling them that they are a dwarf, they don't want to hear it. So, honestly, kudos to you for recognizing this and going further to educate yourself on it. I am so sorry that this happened to you. It is a risk that we all run when breeding the minis.


Well said! Yes, kudos to the OP!!! And yes, many long-time breeders either don't recognize it or just don't want to recognize it and continue to breed known carriers. It's sad really.


----------



## chandab

Riverdance said:


> I had one tell me that they bred a Tobiano to a Tobiano and got a pure white foal. She said she had it for a couple of weeks and then put it down because it must be a lethal white.


OMG! I thought with LWO homozygous foals that they went downhill within just a couple days, tops; not weeks (and it sounds like that foal was healthy, they just assumed, so took extreme action).


----------



## rabbitsfizz

Riverdance said:


> Unfortunately, many dwarfs were used over the years in the Miniature horse breeding program. I know some very famous ones. One I actually saw in person and was really surprised as he was so popular. Remember, there was a time when breeding small to small was all that was done and most desirable. There are many minimal dwarfs with only some of the dwarf traits. Most people do not know what a dwarf looks like, thus this page and the Einstein page. Even many Mini breeders can not agree what is a dwarf.


My point was that it is irrelevant how many dwarfs were used. They did NOT reduce the size of the horses. The thing that reduced the size was breeding selectively for a specific, ie lack of size (it would have helped if the original breeders had also added conformation to the list but you cannot have everything- it would have been nice if they had not attempted short cuts via dwarfs, but they did) The number of dwarfs used is well documented and it is pretty much pointless to keep bringing it up (except in an educational setting of course, people do need to know) what is the problem is the number of dwarf carriers being used_ now_.

Apart from it being inherited in a similar, possibly the same, way, there is not really any other similarity between LWO and Dwarfism. Dwarfism is totally not needed and not wanted and completely undesirable. LWO is innocuous so long as people with a + stallion refuse to breed untested mares, and carries a pretty pattern which, in h/Z form is completely harmless. We do not understand dwarfism yet-I have a sneaky feeling it may actually be more complicated than we have thought. We see far too many animals that we label "minimal" (as in minimally affected) and I am just wondering how they are going to test. It may well be that it is straightforward, and I hope it is, but ,well, we just do not know....


----------



## ozymandias

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.


----------



## Mona

ozymandias said:


> I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.


Who said this??? Maybe I missed something??


----------



## Mona

chandab said:


> OMG! I thought with LWO homozygous foals that they went downhill within just a couple days, tops; not weeks (and it sounds like that foal was healthy, they just assumed, so took extreme action).



That's what I took from it too Chanda...so sad.


----------



## ozymandias

Mona said:


> Who said this??? Maybe I missed something??


Who said what? That people don't want to tell anyone which barns are producing them today? That's apparantly obvious from the dozens of replies in this thread telling us " I know of this well known...or I know of that well known.." with no names mentioned. Oh also, my post was a little confusing I wasn't asking to see pics of the dwarfs these places are producing today. I meant who were the foundation dwarfs bred into the breed years ago (other than Tiny Tim



). But I guess that's a pointless thing to know anyhow as 25% of those horses produced by a dwarf would be genetically perfect as far as having the dwarf gene. You could have, theoretically, 4 full siblings from a known dwarf and one line would not or could not produce dwarfs but without a test you wouldn't know which of the 4 it would be.


----------



## Mona

LOL!! SORRY! I misread what you wrote. I *THOUGHT* you wrote:

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs but now we can't post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.

*instead of:*

I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.


----------



## ohmt

No, ozy-a dwarf ALWAYS passes on a dwarf gene to its foals so in that scenerio they would all 4 have at least 1 dwarf gene to pass on to future foals. It's if you breed two carriers together that 25% theoretically should receive no dwarf genes, 50% carriers, and 25% receive 2 being dwarves themselves.


----------



## ozymandias

Mona said:


> LOL!! SORRY! I misread what you wrote. I *THOUGHT* you wrote:
> 
> I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs but now we can't post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.
> 
> *instead of:*
> 
> I understand people don't want to tell us what barns/horses are producing dwarfs now but can we post the actual dwarfs themselves? I'd like to know who they were and love to see pics.


This is getting more confusing by the post LOL

When it boils down to it no one wants to produce a dwarf intentionally (I hope!) Eradicating dwarfism from our breed is going to be quite an easy task once a test is available especially if we can get the backing of the registries like requiring the test to register a horse. Just because a horse is a carrier does not mean the end of it's breeding life all you have to do is ensure the animal you're breeding it to is not a carrier. As this is a takes two to tango combination then a few simple precautions will bring this issue to a dead stop. So many people are fearful that their prize mares and stallions will no longer be viable breeding options but that's not the case at all. You just have to breed to a non carrier. In fact if I was a breeding farm I'd proudly announce my horses are dwarf gene tested. We're not going to loose our gene pool. We're not going to loose any already being bred mares or stallions. We can just make sure with a simple test that we're breeding the right combination together.


----------



## REO

Mona said:


> Riverdance was also inferring that if there was a test available it would be the same thing as the way we are now testing for LWO and breeding selectively to ensure it is not doubled up on, so you are both saying the same thing...that it would be safe to breed a carrier to a TESTED non-carrier whether it be for LWO or Dwarf.


No, my meaning was, that even if the carriers were known through testing, I still would not agree with them being used in breeding. My meaning was, that LWO is a pinto pattern and is IMO fine to use IF bred to a tested non carrier. But that breeding a tested non dwarf carrier non carrier to a tested dwarf carrier to ME was still not a good thing. So that is why I was saying that to ME LWO and dwarf testing wasn't the same.

I know what Riverdance was saying. Nothing wrong with what she said



I wasn't trying to pick on her, only use what she said to exand on what my different thoughts were. Sorry.

I was not misunderstanding and I was not arguing with her



But I was saying my thoughts which were different than hers.

No biggie



I'm done!


----------



## ozymandias

REO said:


> No, my meaning was, that even if the carriers were known through testing, I still would not agree with them being used in breeding. My meaning was, that LWO is a pinto pattern and is IMO fine to use IF bred to a tested non carrier. But that breeding a tested non dwarf carrier non carrier to a tested dwarf carrier to ME was still not a good thing. So that is why I was saying that to ME LWO and dwarf testing wasn't the same.


Can I ask you why you think it's different?

Carrying the gene does not make them a dwarf. You'd never know from looking at some of these horses that they are carriers...some are, as people have pointed out, so well conformed that they are National Champions and unless bred to another carrier they will never, ever produce a dwarf no matter how many times they are bred. There are thousands of genetically recessive health issues carried by people too but unless both partners both carry the same recessive gene they will never give birth to an offspring with that disease/illness.

I view myself as a very ethical person but I see no harm whatsoever in breeding a recessive gene carrier (for whatever trait we're talking about) as long as you don't breed it to another.


----------



## ohmt

To me it's different because a recessive dwarf gene still has the ability to "fight" the dominant gene and create dwarf characteristics. It's funny, there are some on here who got extremely upset with me on a previous Einstein thread for saying he was not a dwarf but that I thought he might be a carrier with a recessive gene creating a few characteristics. They said (and in caps, so I'm assuming yelled it) that any carrier with a recessive dwarf gene that presents a dwarf characteristic or two ARE dwarves. And yet, on here they have expressed that they are fine with breeding carriers (not talking about you ozy). It's....interesting.

Also, with so many people that breed (as has been shown by various polls on here) and so many people new to miniatures that breed before they are knowledgeable about doing so, it would be easy for dwarves to keep being produced even when there are tests. Everyone complains about the market and how we should all cut back on breeding, but there is so much opposition to culling dwarf gene carriers from the breeding population and I'm not quite sure why.


----------



## horsehug

Ozymandias, I just wanted to say after years of learning about this from, and discussing this with, some of the most knowledgable people about it who have raised minis for decades and either studied it many years in the lab or many years in experience, I agree with you.

Susan O.


----------



## ohmt

Ah shucks, Susan, we disagree on something!





I think I would be ok with it if the testing was mandatory for registration and was put onto registration papers, but I just don't think that would ever happen, unfortunately.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

well since I am guessing the minis must have all came from breeding down to smaller minis is it not possible that most might carry the gene some where's down the line? if lets say my mare is bred to a stallion and produces a nice foal perfect in conformation then take her and breed to a stallion and again produces a perfect foal does the gene not breed out?? I am not sure how it works so just asking I know with dogs if a dog is from a bitch that has produced a longcoat some will carry the gene and some will not and bred to another carrier will likely produce a longcoat but of the puppy that is not a carrier (they have testing) bred to another that is not a carrier and one that is will not produce a longcoat is this not the same with dwarfs carriers?


----------



## Mona

Whether it's forced by the registries or not (which I would hope it will be, but likely not) having the testing available will in effect, I believe, for the most part, force SERIOUS breeders into testing their horses and breeding selectively, if they choose to breed. I think that most people looking to buy, will find it a VERY important criteria in deciding which horse and which farm to buy from. I doubt many, if any serious breeders will want to buy horses that have come from untested parents, and that have been ested themselves. Having the test available will hopefully squeeze out those that choose not to test their stock, once they reallize thy cannot seel them without being tested due to no/very limited public interest in them.


----------



## Mona

TPs flat rock acres said:


> well since I am guessing the minis must have all came from breeding down to smaller minis is it not possible that most might carry the gene some where's down the line? if lets say my mare is bred to a stallion and produces a nice foal perfect in conformation then take her and breed to a stallion and again produces a perfect foal does the gene not breed out?? I am not sure how it works so just asking I know with dogs if a dog is from a bitch that has produced a longcoat some will carry the gene and some will not and bred to another carrier will likely produce a longcoat but of the puppy that is not a carrier (they have testing) bred to another that is not a carrier and one that is will not produce a longcoat is this not the same with dwarfs carriers?


Not really...it's a crap shoot really. Without have the test, there is no way to know who carries and who doesn't. It is often* impossible* to know if a horse carries it by looks alone. This is why the testing is so important. An excellent stallion example of the breed, can be bred to a mare with as good conformation, and can produce a dwarf. They may produce 10 perfectly beautiful, top winning foals the first 10 times they are bred together, and then suddenly, POOF, there is the dwarf. And that is only ONE mare, and 9 previous foals out there, now added to the gene pool. Then if that same stallion covered hundreds of mares over the years, just think of what may be out there. They say a 25% chance of them throwing a dwarf foal, o statistically, out of every hundered, 25 should be born, BUT, that does not always work in order of the numbers the way they come. They could produce 300 foals and have a far smaller number of dwarfs produced...it's all a matter of who they are bred to, and how they "click" when bred together. Like I said, I total crap shoot without the testing available. (other than weeding out the known producers right off the bat)


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

I agree with you Mona and had they had that testing for this mare I would not have boughten her and hope they do come out with a test I for one don't want to breed problems who really ever wants problems but hate the thought that I bought this mare at my expense and have to pet her out


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

opps hit enter too fast the sire of my foal carries the gene and I am sure it won't be his last foal so why is it that my girl should be a pet as long as I deal with the out come like this baby she's here to stay


----------



## ozymandias

Mona said:


> Whether it's forced by the registries or not (which I would hope it will be, but likely not) having the testing available will in effect, I believe, for the most part, force SERIOUS breeders into testing their horses and breeding selectively, if they choose to breed. I think that most people looking to buy, will find it a VERY important criteria in deciding which horse and which farm to buy from. I doubt many, if any serious breeders will want to buy horses that have come from untested parents, and that have been ested themselves. Having the test available will hopefully squeeze out those that choose not to test their stock, once they reallize thy cannot seel them without being tested due to no/very limited public interest in them.


Mona, I think you hit the nail directly on the head






If a test were available and people started testing and advertising their farms as a farm who tested it would eventually force many if not all of the larger (and hopefully smaller) breeders to follow suit because of educated buyers dictating the market and wanting tested horses. Just take myself as a hypothetical - If I found my stallion was a carrier I'd make sure that the only mares I purchased to breed to him were non carriers. Tested doesn't have to mean recessive gene free (IMO) it means you're being a responsible breeder and are not prepared to breed two positive carriers.


----------



## vickie gee

ohmt said:


> No, ozy-a dwarf ALWAYS passes on a dwarf gene to its foals so in that scenerio they would all 4 have at least 1 dwarf gene to pass on to future foals. It's if you breed two carriers together that 25% theoretically should receive no dwarf genes, 50% carriers, and 25% receive 2 being dwarves themselves.


ohmt I agree with you...you are saying "breed two carriers" so that is Dd to Dd, Right? So they could produce a DD, Dd, dD, or dd. The dd is the dwarf (two recessive genes), the DD is not carrying the recessive gene at all so it is not a carrier and not a dwarf (it is a normal mini). The Dd and dD are carriers so they are not a dwarf but could produce a dwarf if bred to another carrier.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

exactly responsible breeding


----------



## vickie gee

ozymandias said:


> Mona, I think you hit the nail directly on the head
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> If a test were available and people started testing and advertising their farms as a farm who tested it would eventually force many if not all of the larger (and hopefully smaller) breeders to follow suit because of educated buyers dictating the market and wanting tested horses. Just take myself as a hypothetical - If I found my stallion was a carrier I'd make sure that the only mares I purchased to breed to him were non carriers. Tested doesn't have to mean recessive gene free (IMO) it means you're being a responsible breeder and are not prepared to breed two positive carriers.


Now *that *makes perfect sense. Hope the testing is going to soon be available.


----------



## Riverdance

chandab said:


> OMG! I thought with LWO homozygous foals that they went downhill within just a couple days, tops; not weeks (and it sounds like that foal was healthy, they just assumed, so took extreme action).


That was the point. There was nothing wrong with the foal, a LWO can not poop, their lower intestines are not attached. They usually die within 24 to 48 hours. This white foal was not a lethal white, but they were ignorant and thought it was and killed it.


----------



## Riverdance

ohmt said:


> To me it's different because a recessive dwarf gene still has the ability to "fight" the dominant gene and create dwarf characteristics. It's funny, there are some on here who got extremely upset with me on a previous Einstein thread for saying he was not a dwarf but that I thought he might be a carrier with a recessive gene creating a few characteristics. They said (and in caps, so I'm assuming yelled it) that any carrier with a recessive dwarf gene that presents a dwarf characteristic or two ARE dwarves. And yet, on here they have expressed that they are fine with breeding carriers (not talking about you ozy). It's....interesting.
> 
> Also, with so many people that breed (as has been shown by various polls on here) and so many people new to miniatures that breed before they are knowledgeable about doing so, it would be easy for dwarves to keep being produced even when there are tests. Everyone complains about the market and how we should all cut back on breeding, but there is so much opposition to culling dwarf gene carriers from the breeding population and I'm not quite sure why.


I am thinking that some really big farms, ones with famous stallions would not want it to get out that they are producing dwarfs. It would destroy their whole breeding program. If they have enough money the tests could be delayed for years.

I am a dog breeder. We have to test for things like PRA. There are carriers, non carriers and clears. In collies we bred to slowly get rid of the recessive gene. In Tibetans, we have to do the same thing. I suspect we will have to do the same thing with the Minis, because again, I think we will find out that a large portion of our gene pool is carrying the gene as get from these popular stallions are on many Mini farms today. So, do we get rid of our gene pool and not breed a carrier, or do we breed carefully to remove the dwarf gene as best we can? Again, i am not saying i would breed a horse that had produced a dwarf, but what if it was most of the Mini's?


----------



## ozymandias

vickie gee said:


> ohmt I agree with you...you are saying "breed two carriers" so that is Dd to Dd, Right? So they could produce a DD, Dd, dD, or dd. The dd is the dwarf (two recessive genes), the DD is not carrying the recessive gene at all so it is not a carrier and not a dwarf (it is a normal mini). The Dd and dD are carriers so they are not a dwarf but could produce a dwarf if bred to another carrier.


Sorry ohmt, I must have been unclear in my post. I was meaning breeding carriers not breeding actual dwarfs


----------



## ohmt

I figured Ozy, just thought i'd clarify in case others read it!

Riverdance-i guess i really don't think there are as many carriers as would need to be to destroy a large breeding farm. I don't think there are even enough to destroy most smaller ones (emphasis on most). Say someone has half their herd as carriers (which i think is a very high percentage). Those large farms putting out 40-50 foals a year are put back to 20-25. Still a LOT foals. Most people do not breed all of their mares anyway and there is such a huge overpopulation of stallions/colts, it's not hard to get one that is GOOD without breaking the bank.

I should wait to state my opinions until we have the tests though as they are based on hypothetics. Maybe there are many more carriers than i think! But, based on the number of dwarf foals i see each year, i don't think so. Then again, how many hide them? I don't know.


----------



## Mona

TPs flat rock acres said:


> the sire of my foal carries the gene and I am sure it won't be his last foal so why is it that my girl should be a pet as long as I deal with the out come like this baby she's here to stay


Well, I guess there are a few areas of thought on this, depending on how you would want to manage your herd...afterall, they are YOUR horses, you can do with them as you please, no matter what people think.

First off (and I am not pointing fingers...just giving examples of what you may or may not want to do), 2 wrongs don't make a right, so in saying "he's still breeding, so why cant my mare still breed?" that is a question only you can answer. Many will say you shouldn't and neither should the stallion. Some may say they will continue breeding to anything and taking their chances, while others may say they will only breed to those that are not known to carry the gene...that is, bredding to other horses that have not (at least YET) produced a dwarf.

Until there is a test, I would personally "never say never". Please understand, I am not telling or suggesting to you what to do, and many disagree very strongly with me, but this is a decision that YOU, as the breeder, must feel comfortable with.

When I was breeding, I did breed again even after the horse produced a dwarf. In fact, not thinking, and not knowing as much as I have learned throughout the following years, I went and rebred a stallion to the same mare that produced a dwarf. After I realized what I had done, I was on pins and needles, fearing the worst! Thankfully, the foal was A-OK, and I learned that lesson really quick! It was the same mare that went on to produce another dwarf foal by a different stallion, and I never bred her again, and I disclosed this to the new owner of the mare. She was sold to a pet home along with her dwarf filly Star that I posted earlier in this thread. That home could no longer keep them and they went to a second wonderful pet home, where they still both remain to the best of my knowledge.(at least I havn't heard otherwise) Anyway, back on track here. When I sold the stallion, I informed the buyer that he did produce a dwarf. Although many hate that I chose to breed known carriers, it was MY choice. I am not one to sweep things under the rug, and openly told interested parties that he had sired a dwarf. I believe he had sired 16 foals, and one was a dwarf. This is a good example of how a dwarf carrier can produce a large number of foals and tilt the 25% statistical number. Had that one dwarf been born at the end of the time, vs the beginning, even those culling immediately would have had 15 other foals on the ground potentially adding many more carriers, and is the reason why those that want to cull immediately, do.) So, it was my choice to give my horses a second chance before culling them.

Now then, if there was a test available, I am not sure what I would have done. I would not have immediately culled all carriers from my herd, until I knew more about how widespread it all was. I would likely have kept them, breeding selectively to non-carriers, at least for awhile. In other words, I would not have made a hasty decision to get rid of all carriers.

And, others will immediately cull the stallion and the mare, and that is a good thing too. Again, the horses belong to them, and they have a good reason for doing it, and feel so strongly about it, they will do whatever it takes to clean their herd.

So, ultimately, the chopice is one you have to make. To each their own.


----------



## horsehug

Absolutely excellent summarization and post, Mona! That is close to exactly how I feel about all of it!

Susan O.


----------



## disneyhorse

Many things which I suspect are genetic in nature are always "excused" by some breeders... Dwarfism ("just breed the mare to a different stallion next time"), locking stifles ("their toes were just too long and they had a nutrient deficiency as a youngster"), cryptorchidism ("sometimes colts take a very long time to drop") and other things which is partially why these defects are so darn common in the minis. Read the forum long enough and you'll see it over and over.


----------



## Mona

Diane, just wondering, you mentioned culling the mares that produced the dwarf, but you never made mention of the stallions?? Do you keep them in your herd, but just use them on mares that have not yet produced a dwarf foal?


----------



## Mona

Thanks for clarifying Diane.


----------



## vickie gee

ozymandias said:


> Sorry ohmt, I must have been unclear in my post. I was meaning breeding carriers not breeding actual dwarfs






I had already figured that out but did not want to change, interpret, or disect your words



. Hate it when that happens. Thanks for clarifying.



I believe we are on the same sheet of music here. Because if you have an obvious dwarf any breeding of that animal *is *going to pass on a dwarf gene.


----------



## vickie gee

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> Mona, I agree with you that people just have to make their own decisions and do what they feel is right. I don't believe for a minute that the registries will ever be involved in making testing mandatory -- and I would be surprised if they ever even included a reference to the dwarf gene test (like their spot for DNA testing) anywhere on their paperwork.
> 
> To me, I culled the mares that had produced the dwarf foals. My reasoning was simply I didn't want to be responsible for allowing these mares to pass on the dwarf gene to their foals -- no matter WHAT the percentage showed, or the "possible" frequency of a foal inheriting the gene.
> 
> Like the above reference of breeding a carrier to carrier, the percentage says 25% not a carrier, 50% carriers and 25% a dwarf.
> 
> But even breeding a non-carrier to a carrier, the percentage isn't any better: 50% non-carriers and 50% carriers -- the only difference is you don't produce a dwarf foal yourself. But you've still put a possible 50% as carriers into the breeding pool.
> 
> To me, producing 50% carriers was still too high a percentage -- it just meant I wouldn't be producing dwarf foals, but half the babies could still be carriers of this horrid gene. I just "personally" chose to delete these known carriers from my herd and not risk passing on the gene to someone who may not know about this horrid gene in our midst.
> 
> JMHO -- Diane at Castle Rock
> 
> Added....here we educate and learn. Think about how many people are out there that own horses who don't even know what a Coggins is for and have never had one done on their horses.....or those who would never think to vaccinate their horses.....or, well you get the idea. How can we expect these people to understand dwarf gene testing and the ramifications of having the gene -- if and when it comes about. But once one of the special babies touches your heart and you have to help it over the rainbow bridge, you never want to cause that pain to anyone else.


Diane, you made some good points.


----------



## vickie gee

Just want to thank the OP for posting. It has been a good educational experience and would like to say in defense of the seller of the mare that if they had never had a dwarf from that mare and were never aware of her producing one that they really are innocent of any deception. The mare is a carrier as the stallion is, obviously. Neither needs to be used again for breeding purposes. Please let them know. If it ticks them off you have still done the right thing. Your foal looks to be not ridden with some of the dwarf chararcteristics that can cause so much pain in comparison to some I have seen that literally look like they have skis for feet and nostrils way up on the middle of their face. I have seen a couple of that minimal type at farms where they were so loved and tended to. One I remember was a little white mare that was kept separate from all the other horses because they picked on her. The nice lady that owned her had made her a picket fenced yard next to the driveway of their home. It had the cutest pink cottage for her to go in and out of. It was decorated to a tee...wooden yard ornaments, flower boxes, the works. They knew she needed a playmate so they got her a dwarf goat. The two were best buds. The goat was afraid of storms and when the weather got bad the goat would get up on the little mares back for reassurance. The owner made lemonade out of lemons. I am the same way about my little mare that had leg surgery and looks dwarfish on account of her short legs and full size body. She is the cream in my coffee, the ice in my tea, the chocolate syrup on my ice cream...you get the picture.


----------



## Margo_C-T

I am one who in my years as a breeder, had one severe dwarf born.She was a very endearing little critter, but I wish I'd had her euthanized at birth, because it was a TERRIBLE experience when we HAD to do it by the time she was a few months old. She was extremely 'windswept', could barely get around,and got worse and worse in that respect, along w/ having serious breathing issues. The dam was the result of breeding half-brother to half-sister--same sire, which strongly suggests that THEIR dwarf gene came from their sire; she was not a gorgeous mare, but did appear correct,w/ straight legs, though w/a somewhat short neck and only slightly 'domed' forehead. (This was around 20 years ago, and I was still 'early into' breeding minis and knowledge of the issues that are fairly common within their ranks; I also think I was somewhat 'barn-blind'.) The sire had 'good' bloodlines, was a handsome little horse w/ NO hint of dwarfiness, but WAS one who had only one descended testicle until he was 34 months of age. I would not accept that again, EVER, as I now believe that is genetic and should not be 'passed forward'.

I NEVER bred either one again. I GAVE both of them to a boys/girls' charitable 'ranch', who used miniatures in their youth programs, but weren't breeders, with full disclosure that they'd produced a dwarf and should not ever be bred again; in fact, I also GAVE them a filly by the same stallion, with the same caveat.Without a test, I personally thought this the best I could do to ensure that I would not be responsible for 'sending forward' the dwarf gene, even in non-symptomatic 'carriers'.

I look forward to a test, and IF I were still breeding, would certainly have EVERY breedable animal tested. I have mixed feelings about breeding carriers to non-carriers, simply because you could still produce more carriers, but I do understand the reasoning behind thoughtful consideration of choosing to breed 'high quality' carriers ONLY to comparable quality tested NON-carriers. For myself, I expect I'd opt to ONLY breed non- to non. JMHO.

Margo


----------



## Lewella

Miniatures aren't the only breed of horses with genetic defects. Every breed approaches them differently but in the end the demands of the membership dictate how the registry deals with the issue. The AQHA and HYPP are a great example (and I think that eventually we'll find the dwarf carriers are in some way effected by dwarfism just like HYPP N/H Quarter Horses are effected by one copy of HYPP). Once a test was developed AQHA under pressure from members started recording test results on registrations, eventually it became mandatory to test all horses descended from Impressive, and then a date was set when homozygous (H/H) individuals would no longer be accepted for registration and the plan is that eventually N/H animals will not be accepted. Basically on demand of the membership the AQHA phased in breeding HYPP out. Impressive bred Quarter Horses are just as popular as ever and much healthier due to the AQHA's actions, actions their membership insisted upon. I foresee the miniature registries taking a similar trajectory when a dwarf test or tests becomes available.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

as I know the person "might " not have knowing with this person finding it hard or not wanting to get back to me about stud information and breeding dates before foal was born makes me wonder if they did know. still hoping to find out more information on this mare and will take it from there. hope I don't find out she has produced one before as I really will not be happy someone knowingly sold her without saying she did. on another note how do they grow is there things I should be looking for to know if I should brace legs etc she is eating fine mom is very good with her.


----------



## ozymandias

TPs flat rock acres said:


> as I know the person "might " not have knowing with this person finding it hard or not wanting to get back to me about stud information and breeding dates before foal was born makes me wonder if they did know. still hoping to find out more information on this mare and will take it from there. hope I don't find out she has produced one before as I really will not be happy someone knowingly sold her without saying she did. on another note how do they grow is there things I should be looking for to know if I should brace legs etc she is eating fine mom is very good with her.


I'm so very sorry that this has happened to you and hope you somehow find a resolution. I can understand your frustration. Knowing you have a mare who has produced a dwarf and knowing there's no test so breeding her again is a craps shoot is too big of a gamble to take. I'd be pretty upset myself if I'd have bought a mare for breeding that I discovered not long after buying could perhaps never be bred again. I really hope the seller didn't know this mare would/could produce a dwarf.

On the slightly upside, if there is any upside to all of this, your foal looks to be one of the more healthy dwarfs.

Again, I'm so sorry this has happened.


----------



## ozymandias

So here's a question to think about.

What are we going to do to ensure all of these carriers are out of the gene pool?

When you look at mini's bloodlines there are so very many with the same horses cropping up. Take for example Buckeroo. I always have a little giggle when people say "Buckeroo" in the bloodlines like it's a big deal because there's hardly a mini I've looked at without Buckeroo in there somewhere




(including mine)

Obviously I'm not saying Buckeroo is a dwarf producer - just giving an example of how our mini's share so many bloodlines. If on one breeding the dwarf gene is passed 75% of the time, statistically speaking, (1 dwarf, 2 carriers) then how do people suggest culling that huge amount of horses from the gene pool? Look at how many QH's have Impressive lines and he's just one sire. From the sounds of things we have quite a number of dwarf lines originally introduced and now being used and as it's been pointed out - a breeding to a dwarf produces dwarf carries in all 4 possible offspring combinations. The only horses left would be that small percent of non carrier and the offspring non carrier bred to non carrier.

That's quite a task and something that if you did what the AQHA did with HYPP could take at least our lifetime to eradicate.

If a farm has a non carrier and it took (theoretically) 4 breedings to produce it - their resale/breeding value goes sky high but as we all know - even without the test there are way too many folks wanting to pick up their breeding stock for next to nothing so unless the carriers were literally put down how are they going to be kept from being used?

Just a thought?


----------



## MountainWoman

This is such a complex topic and I'm not experienced enough to give an opinion but something I've been thinking about lately is why doesn't the AMHA/R have a program like AKC with limited registration - meaning horses are sold as pets and if they do have offspring, they can't be registered. I know there would still be backyard breeders picking up mares to breed even if the offspring wouldn't be registered but maybe this would help? Maybe this would also help breeders in placing dwarf producing mares?


----------



## Tremor

ozymandias said:


> So here's a question to think about.
> 
> What are we going to do to ensure all of these carriers are out of the gene pool?
> 
> When you look at mini's bloodlines there are so very many with the same horses cropping up. Take for example Buckeroo. I always have a little giggle when people say "Buckeroo" in the bloodlines like it's a big deal because there's hardly a mini I've looked at without Buckeroo in there somewhere
> 
> 
> 
> (including mine)
> 
> Obviously I'm not saying Buckeroo is a dwarf producer - just giving an example of how our mini's share so many bloodlines. If on one breeding the dwarf gene is passed 75% of the time, statistically speaking, (1 dwarf, 2 carriers) then how do people suggest culling that huge amount of horses from the gene pool? Look at how many QH's have Impressive lines and he's just one sire. From the sounds of things we have quite a number of dwarf lines originally introduced and now being used and as it's been pointed out - a breeding to a dwarf produces dwarf carries in all 4 possible offspring combinations. The only horses left would be that small percent of non carrier and the offspring non carrier bred to non carrier.
> 
> That's quite a task and something that if you did what the AQHA did with HYPP could take at least our lifetime to eradicate.
> 
> If a farm has a non carrier and it took (theoretically) 4 breedings to produce it - their resale/breeding value goes sky high but as we all know - even without the test there are way too many folks wanting to pick up their breeding stock for next to nothing so unless the carriers were literally put down how are they going to be kept from being used?
> 
> Just a thought?


My minis don't have a single buckaroo bred horse in their pedigrees. Our stallion did however have Gold Melody Boy (only saying this because he's the closest related to Buckeroo himself)


----------



## Lewella

ozymandias said:


> So here's a question to think about.
> 
> What are we going to do to ensure all of these carriers are out of the gene pool?
> 
> When you look at mini's bloodlines there are so very many with the same horses cropping up. Take for example Buckeroo. I always have a little giggle when people say "Buckeroo" in the bloodlines like it's a big deal because there's hardly a mini I've looked at without Buckeroo in there somewhere
> 
> 
> 
> (including mine)
> 
> Obviously I'm not saying Buckeroo is a dwarf producer - just giving an example of how our mini's share so many bloodlines. If on one breeding the dwarf gene is passed 75% of the time, statistically speaking, (1 dwarf, 2 carriers) then how do people suggest culling that huge amount of horses from the gene pool? Look at how many QH's have Impressive lines and he's just one sire. From the sounds of things we have quite a number of dwarf lines originally introduced and now being used and as it's been pointed out - a breeding to a dwarf produces dwarf carries in all 4 possible offspring combinations. The only horses left would be that small percent of non carrier and the offspring non carrier bred to non carrier.
> 
> That's quite a task and something that if you did what the AQHA did with HYPP could take at least our lifetime to eradicate.
> 
> If a farm has a non carrier and it took (theoretically) 4 breedings to produce it - their resale/breeding value goes sky high but as we all know - even without the test there are way too many folks wanting to pick up their breeding stock for next to nothing so unless the carriers were literally put down how are they going to be kept from being used?
> 
> Just a thought?


Yes, breeding out once a test is available will take a LONG time. The HYPP test became available 20 years ago and AQHA is still in the process of breeding it out.

If you cross a carrier of a genetic defect to a non-carrier you have a 50% chance of producing a carrier. Carrier x Carrier will produce 50% carrier/25% afflicted/25% non-carrier. The first step in breeding out is eliminating the individuals that are homozygous for the genetic defect - both registries have already done this by prohibiting dwarfs from registration. The second step is ensuring carriers aren't bred to carriers and unfortunately we cannot do that until we have a test. The final step is prohibiting carriers and that will be many, many years in the future (40 years after testing becomes available would not be an unreasonable time frame).

I personally don't think dwarfism is quite as rampant in the breed as some think. There has been a lot of voluntary culling of known carriers from breeding programs and every time one of those carriers is removed from the gene pool the potential number of future carriers is decreased. The general breeding populous also doesn't practice line breeding which in turn also reduces the number of potential dwarf carriers from lines that were known to have a dwarf ancestor in their pedigree. I know some gripe about the addition of American Shetland blood to the gene pool but when it comes to the dwarf issue it is a good thing as the American Shetland gene pool is not known to have dwarfism. So, known carriers have been culled, known non-carriers have been added, and through this the potential for dwarfs has decreased over time. I think we could all be very pleasantly surprised when a test becomes available by a lower than anticipated percentage of carriers.


----------



## tagalong

Well, I'll go out on a limb... I saw this horse in person many times. The first time I saw him, I was horrified that he was a breeding stallion - that was many years ago now. *Komoko's Little Husseler* (26 1/2") was IMO a dwarf - not severely affected but a dwarf all the same. His "pug" face, the clubby feet... these old photos actually look much better than the times I saw him.









Another stallion blast from the past.. Dell Tera's Lord of the Isles... 29"




0


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

This horse produced at least one dwarf foal. I owned him at the time. He previously had produced one non-dwarf foal for me, but that foal did not make it out of the sac. I now fully believe he had produced dwarf foals prior to me buying him, but they were hushed up, hidden, euthanized, something. He was purchased by me to be my herdsire. I paid a lot of money for him, I also paid to have him shown by a trainer, promotional ads in MHW, professional pictures, etc. He was gelded about 2 weeks after producing the dwarf filly in the pic below. He is now a champion show horse for a small child. They were the hi-point team for their entire state in 2011 and he's back out showing this year. While with me he was 4X World/National top ten, was the AMHR Area III Show Reserve Champion Senior Stallion, and earned many grands.

A link to the thread from his siring of this filly to his gelding is here:

http://www.miniature...1

I had supporters for what I did, but I also had a lot of detractors. Many people emailed me, PMd me, etc., and said I was overreacting, etc. They said I could just not repeat the breeding, avoid known carriers, etc. I needed to do what I thought was right. I still think it was the right thing to do.

I was told in an email by John Eberth that this was the first son/daughter of Sids Husker known to have produced a dwarf. Maybe Corona got his gene from his dam? Who knows.

Here are some pics of Corona:













Here is Corona's dwarf filly. She lived about 18 hours. She was, confirmed via blood test, a type 1 and type 3 dwarf. One type came from Corona, one from her dam.




The dam of this filly was sired by a WC son of one of the most famous sires in our breed's history. Of course, she could have gotten her gene from her dam also. We will never know.

Edited to add: the dam was a maiden and had a VERY difficult time during the birth. The extreme size of the foal's head made it a very tight fit. The mare was treated by a vet and the owners knew they'd never breed her again. But she was very special to them, so they intended to keep her as a pet. After the birth, she never was the same. Prior to having this foal, she was a spunky, pushy little mare that always needed to be on a diet. After the foal, she never regained her spirit. Her owners had her treated constantly for everything they could think of. She eventually died a few months later. She never recovered from the truama of the birth.


----------



## targetsmom

I am only asking because I want to learn more about dwarfs... as I think most people reading this thread do. I do not see much similarity between this foal and the one that started this thread. Did this filly have some obvious health issues that led you to think "dwarf"??? Sorry if this was in the original thread, but I think it would be educational to have it here.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

targetsmom said:


> I am only asking because I want to learn more about dwarfs... as I think most people reading this thread do. I do not see much similarity between this foal and the one that started this thread. Did this filly have some obvious health issues that led you to think "dwarf"??? Sorry if this was in the original thread, but I think it would be educational to have it here.


Mary, are you referring to the filly I just posted???


----------



## Lizzie

Parmela, I applaud you for gelding this obviously lovely boy.

I have a question. You say your filly was blood-tested to show she carried two types of dwarfism. Can this test only be done on obviously live dwarfs? Seems to me, that if they could test the filly, then they could test those who carry dwarfism but show no signs of it.

Lizzie


----------



## Tremor

Lizzie said:


> Parmela, I applaud you for gelding this obviously lovely boy.
> 
> I have a question. You say your filly was blood-tested to show she carried two types of dwarfism. Can this test only be done on obviously live dwarfs? Seems to me, that if they could test the filly, then they could test those who carry dwarfism but show no signs of it.
> 
> Lizzie


I'm going to assume that she donated the corpse of the filly since she had passed at 18 hours and sent in blood samples of the parents.

Correct me if I'm wrong.


----------



## targetsmom

Sorry, I am still sleep deprived!! Yes, I was referring to the filly that Parmela just posted the photo of. I remember the story and applauded your tough decision to geld your lovely boy. But I don't see how you immediately figured she was a dwarf unless there was something going on with her health?? She looks to me like she had a nice length of leg and neck, was well proportioned, but maybe something I am not seeing in the photo????? I am also curious about the tests that confirmed the types.

I think this entire thread has been a wealth of information and thank everyone who has posted!


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

Yes, the owners of the filly graciously donated the corpse and also drew blood from the mare. i also had Corona's blood drawn and it was also sent to John.


----------



## Margo_C-T

Kudos to the OP for her powers of observation, and for starting this discussion, IMO one of the best so far on this subject on LB(and I 've been here since early '99.)

I have always felt as Lewella expresses...that there is likely not NEARLY as 'high' a % of dwarf carriers in the mini horse population as many think.

I am pleased to believe that there are a good number of us who indeed HAVE voluntarily self-culled-removing both parents as completely as we are able from the breeding population as soon as they produced a dwarf.( In retrospect, I probably should have gelded my stallion that sired a dwarf, but at the time, money was short,I had NO need of a small(29"+) halter gelding, albeit a very nice one- and I did the best I could under the circumstances. To follow Parmela's admirable example and be totally 'up-front'...the sire of the dwarf bred and born here was a horse registered as "Sugar Creek Tap Dance" AMHA; I did not buy him from the farm whose prefix he carried, but from another well-known W. Coast farm who'd bought him to sell(I presume that, anyway), at about a year and a half, with a written 'guarantee about his still undescended second testicle(I would not do that again, but that is a separate issue.)the dam was registered AMHA as "Jess Poppis Nite Sprite", also bred by me. Her dam and sire were half-siblings, both owned by me when bred, and both sired by "SLJ Mighty Mouse", AMHA, who was Dell Tera breeding top and bottom. I would not do that kind of breeding again, BTW. Good news is that the stallion only sired two foals here...the dwarf and a pretty pinto filly, whom I also gave away to the boys/girls ranch, along w/ the mare who produced the dwarf, w/ full disclosure. The possibility of another dwarf from either parent HERE ended, totally, and I have only hoped that none of the relatively few offspring of the dwarf's maternal grandsire were bred, or at least, not 'heavily'; the maternal granddam only produced one other filly, an 'oversize' who has been a tremenously talented driving mare, ADS-style, all her working life, and was NEVER bred . Male offspring were all gelded, never bred.

BTW... These are FACTS; I was present, handled the breeding myself, was present at all births.

Margo


----------



## Lizzie

I'm a little 'thick' today, Parmela. So are you saying that there is indeed a blood test for this, maybe even though it is not available for the general population? If somebody confirmed dwarfism via the blood test done on your filly, then there must be a test for it, or am I way off in my thinking?

I had spoken to the people at UC Davis a while back and they told me they are not doing any research on dwarfism and foresee no research in the future. Not surprising really, since many problems which plague horses, is now not being funded.

Lizzie


----------



## rabbitsfizz

I am also in the "not as high a % as thought" bracket. I think a lot of the "minimal" dwarfism we see can be put down to plain old fashioned rotten conformation. I also think the dwarfism "gene" is going to be another difficult one, I don't think it is as easy as just identifying it- we thought that with Sabino, remember, and it was also thought to be "that simple" with Splash, too, but it seems it is not. If Dwarfism is polygenic we are going to have an Everest of a problem, so let's just hope it isn't.

I see hope in the future mainly because a lot of people do cull, and will go on culling. So, just as with PRA in _all_ the Collie breeds (Yes, Shelties are a Collie breed!) most breeders would just not use a GoClear, let alone an affected, from day one, but the test was simple and affordable- I can actually _not_ see the registries doing anything, they do not listen to what we want as it is, why should anything change- maybe the QH registry has a different voting system, you know, one that is fair?? I don't think the Pinto registry ever said you could not breed two LWO together- I may be wrong on that ?


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

Yes Lizzie, there are tests that even after so many years of development are used but not available to the public. My vet and the vet working on the mare obtained and mailed blood per John's instructions to John. The expired foal was dug up from her grave, packaged per his instructions and also mailed to him. He later emailed me the results. IIRC, Corona was the type I carrier and the mare was type III.


----------



## Tremor

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Yes Lizzie, there are tests that even after so many years of development are used but not available to the public. My vet and the vet working on the mare obtained and mailed blood per John's instructions to John. The expired foal was dug up from her grave, packaged per his instructions and also mailed to him. He later emailed me the results. IIRC, Corona was the type I carrier and the mare was type III.


Not going to lie. That really kind of ticks me off. If he could somehow make it public he could create enough profit to fund research for dwarfism.

Is he still taking donations?


----------



## targetsmom

I am getting more confused.. If Corona was Type 1 and the mare was type 3, what was the dwarf??? This indicates that the sire and dam don't have to carry the same type of dwarf genes in order to produce a dwarf. I do think someone else mentioned that earlier in this thread but without an example of it actually happening. This is getting more and more educational all the time.

And Jane, in answer to your question about Pinto and LWO testing - I have never seen LWO or lethal white or even "frame" referred to on the registration application. There are three check boxes: tobiano, overo and solid. (Remember, I am only the messenger!). So clearly Pinto has no rules about LWO.


----------



## Lizzie

Thanks for the info Parmela. I would think then, with this knowledge, John should easily be able to secure a grant, for further evaluation on the problem. Grants are given out for all sorts of ridiculous research these days. One for the study of dwarfism, would be in my mind, very important. This especially since the big guns are not funding it.

Targetsmom.

I thought the correct term for 'frame', is Frame Overo. However, not all Overos are frame obviously.

Lizzie


----------



## targetsmom

Lizzie-

I don't want to sidetrack this great thread to talk about pinto patterns but "overo" includes frame and splash patterns (per Pinto) and as such, is not especially useful. "Frame overo" and lethal white overo are the same pattern.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

targetsmom said:


> I am getting more confused.. If Corona was Type 1 and the mare was type 3, what was the dwarf??? This indicates that the sire and dam don't have to carry the same type of dwarf genes in order to produce a dwarf. I do think someone else mentioned that earlier in this thread but without an example of it actually happening. This is getting more and more educational all the time.


I don't have the emails in front of me as they are only on backups, and it was 3 years ago so my memory isn't very reliable at this point, but I recall her being referred to as type III (the foal) and then later I remember, via an email from John, him referring to Corona having type I and the Sunny, the mare, having type III. I'm pretty confident I remember the results of the sire and dam, but I may be foggy on the filly being referred to as type III. Maybe if both are present, the more acute is the label that is given to the foal? I don't know. I personally beinf is it incorrect that both the sire and the dam have to carry the same type in order to produce a visual dwarf. I'm pretty confident that only two have to be present, not two of the same type.

Also, I realized I never answered your original questions about why we knew she was a dwarf. This is the only picture I have of her remaining, and I never saw her in person, but her head appeared to be almost as wide as it was long, her underbite was severe, her tongue hung out and would not stay in her mouth at all and she could not nurse at all. Her mouth couldn't close and therefore couldn't create a sucking reflex. Her tendons were very lax, she was about 14" tall and she also couldn't move her neck in the right position to nurse, assuming she could have suckled. Her spine appeared to be roached, and she was breathing with great difficulty. And I believe I said she passed at about 18 hours, but I think it was more like 8. Her owners wanted very much to save her and do whatever was necessary to save her, but after speaking with the husband it was decided the best thing was to let her go. They conferred with their vet and he agreed.

The saddest part of all of this is that Sunny, the mare, eventually passed from undetermined complications from the having the foal. She was a very special mare to the family, a show mare, with a pedigree that is very sought after. But mosty, she was their pet because of her silly antics and bossy personality. I will forever feel responsible for her being gone. Corona's life is great. He gets to be a rockstar and loved greatly by his young companion. He didn't suffer from this; it's the mares that suffer.


----------



## ohmt

Just to bring this to the forefront again:

Here are some quotes from John. "Any parent carrying a single copy of 1,3,4,0r 5 combined in any other way with another carrier of any other 1,3,4,5 can make a dwarf. So you have homozygous dwarfs of the same mutation, and heterozygous dwarfs with two copies of mutations just different mutations." "Only type five is viable in heterozygous form in combination with 1 or 3, when combined with type 4 the 4/5 combination is lethal as well." (Copied from a post from horsehug earlier on this thread)

Lizzie-Grants are NOT easy to get. Not at all! And if he has received one before, but ran out of the funding, well....that's even worse.

Tremor-no need to be upset. There is much to research that comes into play. The tests must be incredibly accurate so much tweaking (probably years, maybe for each) is needed before such testing would ever be allowed to go public. Making sure ALL areas of dwarfism are covered. Different types can combine to make a dwarf so it's necessary to make sure ALL types have been discovered before releasing anything otherwise dwarfs and dwarf carriers could still be bred under the pretense that is safe to do so. That's a liability. I'm sure there's more as well.


----------



## horsehug

ohmt, Thank you so much for reposting what I had quoted from John earlier. I almost did last night. But I have been so tired from foal watch I was barely awake. You are so right in what you said though. John's tests will be available to the public as soon as he can get them ready, and he has worked tirelessly for years on this.

Susan O.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

thanks for all of the replies I have learned aloy. baby who is now called cupcake is doing pretty good I have to have a ferries over as she's going on the sides of her feet and still not totally up on them other then some of her features she acts pretty much like a normal baby spunky and full of herself again thanks for all of the information


----------



## Sandy B

Kudos to you for being so outspoken and asking about your new filly. The one thing that I think we all need to remember is to not just call a foal a dwarf because it is think bodied and short necked. Many normal foals are born with conformational faults and more thicker stock type bodies and they are not dwarf. Not everyone breeds for refined , leggy, modern halter-type foals. When I look at the pictures of her body I do not necessarily think "dwarf", but then I see what appears as a severe under-bite and then consider the over-all appearance and think yes, that is a dwarf. Lots of mini foals are bone with limb issues but they do typically correct themselves shortly. If time is not correcting Cupcake then that is also pointing to being a dwarf. Regardless, she does appear very healthy and is adorable!! She will have a purpose in life and can lead a productive life if cared for properly.


----------



## Tremor

I'm glad to hear that Cupcake is doing well.

I would LOVE to keep seeing updates of your little one and I'm sure everybody involved with this thread be as well. Your baby has definitely become apart of the forum now because of this discussion.


----------



## ozymandias

Tremor said:


> I'm glad to hear that Cupcake is doing well.
> 
> I would LOVE to keep seeing updates of your little one and I'm sure everybody involved with this thread be as well. Your baby has definitely become apart of the forum now because of this discussion.


It would be cool to watch her growth via pictures too. Just like the ones Mona posted back on page 2. I think to see the changes was pretty eye opening for anyone who has never had or raised a dwarf foal.


----------



## horsehug

I just wanted to also share my webpage about my little Hal for those who have not seen it since I have pics of him at various ages.

http://www.hilliardhorsestohug.com/hal.html

Susan O.


----------



## ozymandias

horsehug said:


> I just wanted to also share my webpage about my little Hal for those who have not seen it since I have pics of him at various ages.
> 
> http://www.hilliardh...ug.com/hal.html
> 
> Susan O.


Thanks for posting that Susan. It's a great learning tool to see how these little guys grow.

I also enjoyed reading the LKF perspective on dwarfs.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

ozymandias said:


> It would be cool to watch her growth via pictures too. Just like the ones Mona posted back on page 2. I think to see the changes was pretty eye opening for anyone who has never had or raised a dwarf foal.


I agree! It would be very education to watch Cupcake progress. And I just wanted to say I'm so glad she was born to you. I know this has been a heartache due to the position it now puts you in with your very nice mare, but I think if Cupcake had been born somewhere else, she may not get the care she needs or even worse. Bless you for being so willing to learn.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

for sure I will keep everyone updated she is spunky for sure she acts like the big girls lol I am trying to get ahold of a ferrier to do her feet as she is walking on the sides some times and rocks on her back feet a little to. I had my husband do a little paddock for her and her mom as I let them both out the other day as it was nice thinking that mom would be very protective of her.... nope and the other mares started to cause a situation as well as one of the yearlings so the hubby helped to make a place for the two of them so they can enjoy the sun and I can keep a close eye on them. pictures soon


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Ok her she is let me know your thoughts on how she is doing as again this is my first


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Here is a photo of her feet


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Another one of her


----------



## rabbitsfizz

I htink she needs Janells Magic Shoes.....


----------



## rabbitsfizz

Do we have a Mod in the building??

Would it be possible to put this thread in the Dwarf section, when it is done?? I think it is too good to lose.....


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

sure and what is mod in the building?


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

ok so someone thought it was a good idea to let the person who sold me the mare that she had a dwarf soi did fill them in on it


----------



## Barnmother

TPs flat rock acres said:


> sure and what is mod in the building?


A Mod is a moderator, someone who keeps watch on the forum. So it was hoped that one was keeping an eye on this thread and make sure that it is relocated for safe keeping to the dwarf forum when it was completed.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

oh ok


----------



## Mona

Oh my gosh...what a little cutie! In this full body shot I do not see as strongly the dwarf characteristics that I did in the original. Yes, she is thick boned, and I think you said a bad bite, and also with her feet like that, it may or may not be due to dwarfism, but regardless, dwarf or not, I think she will make a wonderful pet!!!


----------



## ozymandias

She looks like a totally different mini in that newer side shot than in the first you posted! She looks like such a sweetie. I so hope this thread hangs around and you post pics as she grows. I think we're all learning so much from what's being shared here


----------



## StarRidgeAcres

I'm glad you are contacting the person who sold you the mare in foal. They need to know their stallion is a carrier, I'm assuming they dont already, and the need to know the other foals by this mare are potential carriers as well. And maybe they will "make good" on the sale by compensating you in some way. They probably aren't legally obligated to do so, but many breeders would feel a moral obligation to. And If they have sold the stallion as well, hopefully they will inform that party also.

I wish you the best.


----------



## Sandy B

In that new picture, she looks different to me and not dwarf, but the thick draft style look. Her legs look much better too! What about her bite?


----------



## Carolyn R

She looks better in the new shots, but sorry, I still see a body that is way too thick for an average one week old foal, with parents that I believe you said were in the 32-33 ish size range? I may be wrong on the exact size, but I know they were not itty bitty parents.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

Not sure how big the stallion is but on my mares papers it states 31" as for her bite well I think its a little better doesn't seem so noticeable I don't know if that makes sense. She needs her feet done and waiting for someone to come by to do them as I don't want to do them. To nervous but if I have to I will..someone on lb was very kind to tell me how to do it.... (thank you


----------



## Mona

Well get this thread moved once it (the topic) "dies".


----------



## brasstackminis

I'd try to get your ferrier to come out and trim the back feet. I have had some that looked really down in the pasterns like that and over the phone, the shoer was thinking splints...then he got there and we just trimmed them and within a week, she had straightened out. Big horse foals break and wear hooves lots eaiser than minis. I almost always have to trim their hooves when born and then every two weeks around here. My place is a giant sand box and they are just so light... She definately looks better than her first pictures. She is a cutie no matter what!


----------



## Sandy B

Everyone is entitled to their opinions on whether this adorable filly is a dwarf and on what should be done with breeding stock that has produced dwarf foals. My opinion is this, if the dwarf gene takes 2 carriers to possibly create an affective foal, I do not see why we would cull our breeding stock, especially once there is a genetic test for the gene. As a long time quarter horse breeder we now have multiple genetic tests we can test our horses for. We can test for HYPP, PSSM, MH, HERDA & GBED. HYPP, PSSM & MH are dominant genes (meaning breeding two affected horses will always give you a carrier and an affected foal) and GBED & HERDA are recessive. I have tested my broodmares and while they are all negative I will breed to recessive gene carriers knowing that there is a chance the resulting foal may be a carrier but will not be affected. If this is the same case with the dwarf gene which has been used all through the miniature horse bloodlines of past to create smaller horses, I think we would end up culling most of our gene pool. I just wish that AMHA would charge a special fee for each foal registered for a year or two to put towards a special fund for research on isolating the dwarf gene so that a test can be developed. As long as I did not breed two known carriers I do not see the problem.


----------



## TPs flat rock acres

that is why I questioned it from what I am learning breeders have been breeding stallion that have been knowing to produce them and really if you look at it, it's the stallion that would be used/producing more than one mare. thank god it's not like dogs where they produce a litter of 8 at a time but really I would think that someone who owns a stallion who would more than likely breed who knows how many mares in a year would be even more careful and selected on who they are breeding their stud to. it would make it so helpful if they did come out with a test and can't believe that it's on hold?? if I am correct?? I know with dogs people are always trying to raise money to do testing to improve the breed and with all of the money that's in horses that they haven't gotten the test yet to test for it. (money in horses I am meaning some of the prices of top show horses)


----------



## vickie gee

TPs flat rock acres said:


> than likely breed who knows how many mares in a year would be even more careful and selected on who they are breeding their stud to. it would make it so helpful if they did come out with a test and can't believe that it's on hold?? if I am correct?? I know with dogs people are always trying to raise money to do testing to improve the breed and with all of the money that's in horses that they haven't gotten the test yet to test for it. (money in horses I am meaning some of the prices of top show horses)


Good point...a mare is capable of birthing every 10-12 months; however a stallion is capable of passing on his genes to multiple mares in a breeding season. While a test would absolutely be beneficial to determine what horses are in fact carriers you have people who would not bother with the test and therefore carriers continue to breed. And regardless of testing or no testing there are people that just do not "get it." Case in point would be the thread where pictures of a potential buyer's herd showed they were breeding dwarf to dwarf intentionally.





I am aquainted with a couple that own both horses and minis. The minis are basically to breed and sell, none are real friendly with people. They pasture birth and normally a pregnancy is a guessing game until a foal shows up (or not). They bought and sold mares frequently. Occasionally dwarfs were born. After I got into minis and realized why they were getting dwarfs I explained to them more than once that their stallion was a carrier and that any time he bred a mare that carried the gene there was a chance of the foal being a dwarf. Once they believed me they got rid of the stallion and got a different one. I do not know if that stallion was ever gelded, but I told them he needed to be.


----------

