# Growing the toe out on Classics?



## Leeana (Aug 1, 2006)

I realize most pony people are at or on there way to Congress right now but i'm sure some pony people are still around




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I'm not sure if its called growing the toe out or the heal but i think most of you know what i am talking about. Would you do this on classic shetlands?

How does growing the toe out affect the horse, i'm guessing its done to give more movement and animation to the trot ..?

Royal doesnt have the 'fancy movement' and i realize that he is a classic shetland so he shouldnt move like a modern or hackney but his trot is so plain and most of that is due to his shoulder be a bit to straight. Would growing out the toe add more action to his trot?

Royal currently has a 1'' heal last he was measured in June.

Also, once you start growing out the toe do you have to continue growing it out or can you keep it at a steady lenght?

Thanks, hopefully some pony people are still around


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## runamuk (Aug 1, 2006)

Well I personally wouldn't grow out his toe to aid movement, more likely you will get movement problems and possibly will end up with suspensory injuries......jmo.........I would keep a nice balanced hoof and then use hills and trot poles to build up muscle structure that will change the movement much more naturally (enhance the horse natural movement).........If he doesn't have alot of knee action no amount of toe, weights, etc...will ever create that.......however good conditioning will enhance his body, carriage, and movement and you would be surprised how different he will appear after an excellent conditioning routine..........good luck and have fun



:


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## disneyhorse (Aug 1, 2006)

Well, although I was pretty sure I'd never "go to the dark side" I am starting to explore a bit with... okay let's call them "action aids" instead of artificial appliances or artificial shoeing.

Pretty much my rationale is that these "action aids" CAN hurt a horse over time, particularly if you do it improperly. So therefore, it better be WORTH IT for you to do these things to your horse. It better be worth SOMETHING for your horse to endure it. If you do it properly, it won't cause horrible life-threatening things to happen but it may speed up the aging process on his body. Most people that use action aids only do so for the period of time while the horse shows.

If your horse doesn't have much action, why put him through "stuff" if it isn't going to make much of a difference? I see shoeing up a Modern a lot different, because they don't have a chance if they aren't subject to as much action aid as they can get. They already have the conformation and talent to use the action aids. If they didn't, subjecting the horse to all that would STILL get them nowhere, so it's not WORTH it.

Adding toe delays breakover of the foot, so you get more rolling action with a bit of reach. Adding heel increases the breakover rate, so you get a higher, more choppy step.

If you don't have a farrier that knows much about it, and you still want to do it, I suggest finding someone who does.

A one inch heel sounds fair... the Modern in my avatar just measured at the last show with a 1.5" heel and she almost breaks level at the trot on all fours. I have her shod and am growing out her foot so it's trimmed like a Modern, not a Classic like she is now because I think it will make her more competitive in the Modern division.

I am fairly new to ponies still... I understand that Classics are not typically trimmed or shod outside of a more naturally balanced foot for the most part. They can be shown barefoot (although my friend says that at Congress it's "professional" to shoe a mature Classic for all disciplines) and aren't expected to have as much motion as the Modern Pleasure or Modern ponies. If you are looking for action for driving, I suggest just working him a lot to build the muscles he needs, and showing him in Country. That's fair to the horse. I show my horses in whatever driving division their natural motion best suits them for.

Andrea


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## keeperofthehorses (Aug 1, 2006)

Howdy Leeana;

By any chance does Royal qualify for the Foundation seal? The Foundations don't need as much action as the Classics. And Country Pleasure ponies don't need as much as Pleasure ponies (I can't remember if you will be showing him in harness)

I'm of the same mind as Runamuck though. I would opt for conditioning and a nice, balanced foot rather than try to change his action through fiddling with his angles. My little grade mare is pretty steep through the shoulders and she moves much more fluidly with a rolled toe than with a long one.


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## kaykay (Aug 1, 2006)

if in question its always best to refer to the rule book



Classics that I have watched show are always in natural state. I have never seen one shod even at Congress??

Pg 170

Classics may be shown barefoot or with a LIGHT PLATE of uniform thikciness and weight. NO pads are permitted. NO built up feet or heel measurements exceeding 1 3/4" allowed. NO weighted shoes or shoes having toe or sideclips, grabs, caullks, or trailers. The plate shall be of equal length in the branches from the toe back and shall not extend past the bulb of the heel. NO corrective shoeing will be permitted.

Classic Shetland Movement pg 166

*(this was the push to stop off types showing in classic!)

Judges should realize that there are Classic ponies that are eligible by registration to enter Classic Shetland competition, but are too extreme, making them off type. If the entry looks so extreme as to look as if it should be exh8ibitied in a Modern Shetland Open or Pleasure Class, then it is too extremem. These off type ponies are NOT to be placed ahead of ponies of correct type set forth by the standard of perfection.

Classic American Shetland has a natural straight and springy way of going. Extremes in length of neck, body, legs and action are undesirable.

Motion more extreme than above example are not desirable.

Standard of perfection for Classic pony

Action

Free, true and forcibly straight forward. The walk should be a relaxed flat footed walk, a four beat straight movement. The trot should be easy going, square with elasticiity and freedom of movement, that is open and reaching, capable of covering ground when asked to do so. Stiff legged extension (pea shooting) or lack of freedom of movement to be FAULTED. Up and down motion (piston like) without extension shall be faulted.


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## Leeana (Aug 1, 2006)

Thanks so much for posting that Kay, i think i'm just going to read over the rulebook bc im sure it would answer allot of questions i have. I always forget about it though, i might skim through it tonight actually



.

Royal does qualify for foundation as i've already contacted Donna (his breeder) and he deffently qualifies. Only reason i have not sent in to get the seal is bc Royal is extremely refined and i dont think he would show foundation all that well.

I wont be showing him in harness as much, as i would like to he gets worked up enough at shows. I ground drive him on average 2x a week and i've had him in the cart here a few times. I'd say there is a slight chance that in a couple years we might do a country pleasure class but i'd love to see someone show him roadster, not me of course but maybe somewhere in the future. I show him sr classic gelding and i watch the other horses in our classes work the rail and there trot has so much more knee and hock action then what Royal has. His is kind of choppy and short, which agian i know is bc his shoulder is a bit straight.

He has a nice flowing trot, i just wish he had a bit more knee and hock action, not on the Modern level or anything like that but just a bit more.

Maybe i've just spent to much time looking at the the modern pictures today :lol:.

I do need to get him on a more strict conditioning program, i admit i've been a little lazy this summer and slacked in the conditioning area.

I think we will work on building up that muscle some and go from there. I think we will stay at the 1'' heal, if it cant be over 1 3/4'' i dont think it would make a difference anyway with the limit being 3/4'' away.

But how does growing out the toe effect the movement on the moderns, hackneys ext? I'm still curious what it adds to the horse. I understand why the shoes are added. I have also seen 1 miniature horse in 'The Journal' who to me looked like the toe had been grown out on purpose (it looks really obvious) and it was in a recent (i think 2 issues ago maybe) issue of it and it was a driving picture.


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## kaykay (Aug 1, 2006)

leanna

adding post script at the top here lol. hopefully when lewella and some others get back they can give you a more direct answer. My answer would be that a classic would show with a natural foot and not a long toe. but for sure lewella and getitia could answer way better then i can!!!

dont stop ever asking questions!!! I didnt mean that at all. The rule book reference is for people like me who have to read something a couple times to get it to stick. When I first got ponies years ago I kept reading the standard over and over so I could recognize the difference in the different classes of ponies. As you know Patches was our first and I was really baffled by how she could be a B papered horse and what the difference between Modern, Modern Pleasure, Foundation and Classic LOL. And you will see some miniatures that drive with toes longer then normal. But I havent really ever noticed this in a classic.

IMO royal is very much foundation in type. For comparison Kyles new pony jet will be showing foundation. Now compare him to black who is also foundation sealed. But black is way too fine boned to show competitively in foundation. But Black would certainly fit the Classic type but I prefer to show him as a B miniature. Black, star, crunch, bailey and cookie all have the foundation seal but that doesnt mean they would show best as a Foundation Shetland. does that make any sense??I know it IS CONFUSING!!!

Classic pony, more refined then a foundation. Nice flowing ground covering movement. Think of a great kids pony

Foundation TYPE Shetland more bone and substance. These are the ponies that started the shetlands thus they call them "foundation type" when people started breeding the more refined classics and moderns some breeders were worried that we would lose the foundation that the ponies were built on. That is when they came up with the types.

Modern Pleasure alot of these are like patches (more bone and substance) but have a cross somewhere to a hackney etc. more animated natural movement then a classic *but you will see some that are more lighter boned but in my experience most were heavier boned

Modern very refined light boned much more animated movement then any of the above.


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## keeperofthehorses (Aug 1, 2006)

hmmm, I dunno Leanna, I think it would be worth it to get him sealed and see how he does. And don't give up on the thought of showing him in harness yourself. With time and practice you never know just how far you might be able to go.



: I think showing in Roadster would be such a blast!


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## runamuk (Aug 1, 2006)

OK I realize I am a nobody on this forum so my experience and opinion are not worth much...........anyway what a longer toe does is extend the horses natural reach and lift.......so the problem is if your horse does not have the knee and hock action naturally no amount of extra toe will create it period. However a long toe can and does create extra strain on the suspensory ligaments and tendons leading to suspensory damage and or splints/windpuffs. Balanced hooves are safer for the inexperienced than the appliances and artificial enhancements. If you are going to fiddle with appliances and enhnacements be prepared to have farriers visit every 4 weeks to always without exception use splint and bell boots ....buy stock in liniment and leg brace.........and to be ready to devote most of your time to caring for your horses. This isn't meant to be mean just that I have worked with horses in these programs and for every 1/2 hour I spent working them there was easily 2-3 hours of prep and cool down................Disney is correct this can give a boost to an animal who has it and can be worth it in a show horse............but it will never ever change an animals movement enough to turn a pleasure animal into a park animal.............as for his foundation status I think you would be pleasantly surprised he should show well in foundation from the pic's I have seen



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GC Stable said:


> Thanks so much for posting that Kay, i think i'm just going to read over the rulebook bc im sure it would answer allot of questions i have. I always forget about it though, i might skim through it tonight actually
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## spazkat (Aug 2, 2006)

GC Stable said:


> Royal doesnt have the 'fancy movement' and i realize that he is a classic shetland so he shouldnt move like a modern or hackney but his trot is so plain and most of that is due to his shoulder be a bit to straight. Would growing out the toe add more action to his trot?



The best way to decide how much foot (toe or heel) your pony needs is to consult a GOOD farrier. One who watches your pony move, etc before he ever goes to trim. He will be able to tell you what length and what angle is best suited to the ponies conformation and will allow him to move his best. Explain to him what you're looking for in movement, and he will likely be able to maximize what he has while keeping the pony sound and balanced.


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## horsefeather (Aug 5, 2006)

runamuck, I'm much more of a 'nobody' on here, but you made me do it!! I hardly post much on here anymore, for obvious reasons,



: but I had to give you a big *THANK YOU* for your reply! :aktion033: :aktion033:

I SO agree with you. IMO, if you really care for your horse, *NOTHING* is worth doing to harm them, especially for 'show!'

Thanks for your comments, wish more folks felt like us!!!!

I was at Congress, and I was dismayed at the length of the 'trainers' horses feet!!



I'll shut up now!

Pam


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## Fred (Aug 7, 2006)

A horse trimmed at the PROPER angle for that particular horse will not harm the horse EVEN IF THE FEET ARE LONG!!!!!!!!!!!!! I do ALL TYPES AND DISCIPLINES of horses. If the horse does not have it shoeing will not give it to him!!!!!!!!!! Yes artificial aids in the hands of someone who does not know what they are doing can cause damage. [At present I have a horse that wings out because the person who had him did not know what she was doing]. This was done by someone who did not understand how to use artificial aids and did not understand the horse did not need them. Its going to take me a while to fix this and it will be done without artificial aids. I can trim a horse to free up the movement in the shoulders and cause them to drive behind. THAT IS PROPER TRIMMING! Yes, there are some people out there who abuse artificial aids but there are also many who don't and by the way what is an artificial aid? A halter is so is a bridle, lunge line driving harness etc. I know A LOT of horses shod with a flat plate that can go above level. My old appy could. Linda B


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## spazkat (Aug 8, 2006)

Fred said:


> A horse trimmed at the PROPER angle for that particular horse will not harm the horse EVEN IF THE FEET ARE LONG!


Exactly. Length of foot is almost never a problem for a horse.... incorrect angles *always* are. Its a common misconception to equate the 2 however, or to think that horses should be trimmed to a "one size fits all" length or angle.


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## runamuk (Aug 8, 2006)

I think my concern is so often a complete novice comes along asking about growing out feet or shoes, or pads to MAKE their horse move in a way it may not be meant to move, instead they should have the animal evaluated by a competent farrier and or trainer rather than just grow hoof on their own. As I said in a skilled persons hands none of these things are damaging, sadly these techniques are often used by UNskilled people and then do cause harm..........

I've used plenty of the tools in all kinds of settings and everything we use can cause harm if not used correctly.................for instance I know personally 2 horses whose jaws were fractured by simple snaffle bits .....in the wrong hands a simple bit can become a weapon



:


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## Leeana (Aug 8, 2006)

> runamuk Posted Today, 02:20 PM I think my concern is so often a complete novice comes along asking about growing out feet or shoes, or pads to MAKE their horse move in a way it may not be meant to move, instead they should have the animal evaluated by a competent farrier and or trainer rather than just grow hoof on their own. As I said in a skilled persons hands none of these things are damaging, sadly these techniques are often used by UNskilled people and then do cause harm..........


I was not implying that i was going to wake up one morning and decide to go ahead and do this w/out any thinking it through. If i had decided to do it i would have had my farrier out first and have him do the work on the hooves, not me. I was in no way implying i was going to do it myself on my own



. I wouldnt dare even attempt anything like that on my own without consulting a pro or my farrier.


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## susanne (Aug 9, 2006)

Leanna,

I know nothing about showing Shetlands, so my remarks do not refer to that, but...

Royal seems very similar to Mingus in build, so I thought I would share what I have seen.

I had always thought that, with his loooong legs, Mingus should have had a showier trot, but he displayed a rather boring movement. I just figured either it wasn't there or he simply chose not to do it. But as I began conditioning him and building muscle, first he began developing a ground-eating, extended trot. So then I assumed that he was built to reach, not lift.

Recently, we took him over to a friend's place to run a big field with mares on one side, a stallion on the other. After an initial meet and greet, he took off with a floating, high-stepping trot...I was stunned, a s I had never seen him move like that. (Daryl, BigDogs&LittleHorses can verify this, just in case anyone thinks I was dreaming, LOL!)

I figure that he always had it, but good conditioning and building muscle has brought out what was already there...or else that Mingus ego just had to show off for the other horses!

Now when we round pen him, he has developed a new variation: a higher stepping yet still rather extended, with a very deliberate hoof placement.

I wonder if Royal may just need more conditioning to come into his own movement?


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## runamuk (Aug 10, 2006)

Leanna I applaud you for knowing your own limitations :aktion033: :aktion033: but sadly many do not, hence my slightly abrasive reply.

Susanne brings up a great point regarding conditioning.................

prepare for a tangent..........so many miniature people seem to equate CONDITON with DIET........I do not see any reason a miniature horse or pony should not WORK ....and by that I do not mean 20 minutes of trotting in a round pen :no: :no: these animals are all equines.....they are meant for endurance .............leaving sprinters out ( a whole nother ball o wax) most horses are designed to spend 80% of their time on the move even if it is just walking...........I find that if a horse (like a human) isn't breaking a decent sweat and raising it's respiratory and heart rate then it isn't really getting much out of it's work................when you do work an animal to it's potential it is amazing how different it can appear...............I advocate working the animal to a good condition first...........

and then using all the means neccessary to "tip the scale"........................

would you go from doing nothing to running a 25 mile marathon in 30 days? or would you go from never lifting a weight to competing in mr/mrs universe in less than 30 days?.............then why do we expect our horses to get to this level in less than 30 days by just feeding them and using contraptions?..........this is unrealistic........and I have the utmost respect for every trainer out there who realizes that there is no such thing as the 30 day wonder (if you want to know who they are look in the winners circle year after year)



: .....champions are brought along and nurtured....natural talent is enhanced....and a whole lot of luck is involved



:



:

I am just saddened to see people think they can ....1) change an animal from it's true nature and 2) think contraptions can fix all issues



:


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## spazkat (Aug 11, 2006)

susanne said:


> Now when we round pen him, he has developed a new variation: a higher stepping yet still rather extended, with a very deliberate hoof placement.
> 
> I wonder if Royal may just need more conditioning to come into his own movement?


This is a definite possibility. One of the most overlooked (and most important factors) in getting the best possible movement out of your horse is proper balance. I see so many horses at shows going around the ring with their head down, all the weight on the forehand and all strung out behind.... and they wonder why they dont place. When a horse is properly conditioned and taught, he is able to balance himself correctly... with most of the weight and drive coming from the back. This frees up the front end and is what allows for upright head carriage and front end motion.


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