# bought a cart at auction today



## studiowvw (Nov 27, 2010)

Well, a vintage cart came home with me today. It was a little heavy to get on the roof of the car






The paint's all perished, but the wood is in fine shape, also all the metal fittings are good. Stored inside. Wheels ok, tires not.

I'm planning to give it some TLC and new leather bits and paint. The shafts are 66" long.

Here is the picture of it. I haven't seen one like this before, not that I'm an expert!

Is this a common type of suspension?






Those things that look like dock bumpers are actually large springs which suspend the seat and foot bed. The metal ends of the shafts hinge off the curved axle.

It doesn't look like it would be too hard to construct, if I got curved shafts somewhere and got someone to fabricate the metal parts.

I would love to have one in mini size!

Has anyone ridden in one with this type of suspension? Is it comfortable or do you get bounced out?

Seems to me that the centre of balance would be low with this design.

Wilma


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## Minimor (Nov 27, 2010)

Easy to find out how it rides, just get hubby in the shafts & have him do a good road trot across some rough ground, and you'll be able to tell how well the springs work!!


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## studiowvw (Nov 27, 2010)

Good idea, I will rope in the next person that comes along and looks capable of a good road trot!

W


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2010)

Are the shafts hooked to the axle on the back? If so then those shocks are to take some of the ride out of the shafts and off the horse's back. Even if it is comfortable for a driver I am not so sure it would be comfortable for a horse. When you get your "human horse" ask them to see how it feels in their hands when you hit a bump.


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## RhineStone (Nov 27, 2010)

Interesting. Those shafts are called Bent Elbow shafts and are pretty common. They can be used in a number of configurations, either as separate shafts from the vehicle, or as an integral part of the cart such as seen here.

Yes, anytime the shafts are connected to the axle, it is a bit harder on the horse. The horse gets the "rattle" of every bump that is gone over. All the more reason NOT to use a tight wrap strap style harness, but use open tugs with an overgirth instead. That way, there is some "play" of the bumps.

Myrna


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## studiowvw (Nov 28, 2010)

Do you mean to use with a sliding backband?

Thanks for the ideas. We did try pulling it around today and found it to be pretty amazing in the way it rides. Very little "feel" of bumps in the shafts, so those big springs must be dispersing a lot of energy.

My brother said the weight in the shafts was almost neutral when I sat in the right place.

He's is an industrial designer/mechanic type and was intrigued by how this cart works. He didn't think it would be too difficult to build.

Sitting in it is like riding waves. Instead of feeling the little up and down movement of the horse trotting, it bounces much more slowly.

Now I did think that on hills and rough ground one might be bounced right out. Maybe there should be some sort of a bounce limiter - it does seem to explain why the springs are so large. Maybe there should be an opposing spring?

W


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## Carriage (Nov 29, 2010)

Hi Wilma,

Looks like that cart will clean up nice.

Perhaps its early, more likely that I'm blind, but I can't see how those shocks come into play at all. Unless the loop has an open end that I'm not seeing, the shock has no ability to compress or move. Perhaps there is some arrangement between where the shaft turns down to the axle and the part of the frame holding the seat that allows some kind of movement. Can't tell this from the picture. Everything else in the loop holding the shock between the shaft and cart floor looks fixed.

I gotta be missing something. This is very intriguing.

Bb

Here is the picture of it. I haven't seen one like this before, not that I'm an expert!

Has anyone ridden in one with this type of suspension? Is it comfortable or do you get bounced out?

Seems to me that the centre of balance would be low with this design.

Wilma


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## RhineStone (Nov 29, 2010)

A sliding backband just balances the load of a two-wheeled cart if a shaft drops. That would be fine to use in this cart. You don't want to use a SBB saddle in a vehicle with independent shafts.

A wrap strap is the strap that keeps your cart from flipping up over backwards. It is usually one strap with two buckle ends that is loosely attached to the girth at the bottom. An overgirth is buckled to a strap on the bottom of the tugs (shaft loops, not traces) that holds the tugs down and accomplishes the same purpose. Tight wrap straps will transfer motion of the cart to the horse. They weren't intended to be used tightly because of it, but those that don't use breeching use the tight wrap straps to brake. Thimbles are better because then you can leave the wrap straps a little looser. Thimbles will still transfer motion, but not as much.

In order for those springs to work properly, the "box" of the cart needs to be independent of the shafts. Those springs must be holding the seat/floorboards up and also providing "cushioning". The only attachment of the box is at the cross bar. If that is not the case and the box is attached to the shafts somewhere other than the cross bar, then yes those springs are not doing much good.

No, I don't think you want a "bounce limiter". The good ride is going to come from the cart's ability to absorb shock. The more you stiffen the ride, the more likely you are to bounce out, because your own joints become the "shock absorbers". I am not familiar, however, with the type of springs you have on that cart. Can you get a close up photo of the springs and their attachment?

Myrna


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 29, 2010)

I'm with Bob; I can't see from the picture quite how those 'shocks'(presuming those are the 'hydraulic cylinder-looking' things between the shafts and the bottom of the cart basket?)would be working?? Perhaps it has to do with the 'brace rod' appearing things that go from the top of each 'shock' down and back to(wards?)the axle just behind each wheel?? Intriguing, indeed...would love to be able to see this cart 'in person'! It does look like it would 'clean up' nicely and that someone put some thought into its construction!

Margo


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## studiowvw (Nov 29, 2010)

Myrna said:

"In order for those springs to work properly, the "box" of the cart needs to be independent of the shafts. Those springs must be holding the seat/floorboards up and also providing "cushioning". The only attachment of the box is at the cross bar. If that is not the case and the box is attached to the shafts somewhere other than the cross bar, then yes those springs are not doing much good."



Yes, that is exactly it. The springs don't compress, they stretch. The floorboards/seat section hinges off the crossbar and the only other place of attachment is the springs.



I'll get a couple of pictures in closeup because it is quite interesting to see.



W


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 29, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> A sliding backband just balances the load of a two-wheeled cart if a shaft drops. That would be fine to use in this cart. You don't want to use a SBB saddle in a vehicle with independent shafts.


Independent shafts, by the way, are a set of shafts like you'd see on modern four-wheeled marathon vehicles. They sit upright when stored and are swung down, one at a time, for hitching. Since they are independent of each other it's a bad idea to have tugs that slide around as it allows the opposite shaft to drop down around the horse's legs while you're hitching the other side.



With normal fixed shafts like on our two-wheeled carts, the other shaft stays level with the first during hitching because they are one fixed unit.



RhineStone said:


> A wrap strap is the strap that keeps your cart from flipping up over backwards. It is usually one strap with two buckle ends that is loosely attached to the girth at the bottom. An overgirth is buckled to a strap on the bottom of the tugs (shaft loops, not traces) that holds the tugs down and accomplishes the same purpose.


Just to clarify a little, there are two different kinds of overgirth (the harness part whose function is to keep the cart from flipping over backwards and to keep the shafts close to the horse's sides during turns.) There is one called an open tug arrangement which is what Myrna is describing above. That has a tug loop with a strap attached to the bottom of it and the girth has a short sliding strap with a buckle on each end which are secured to those straps on each side. The other type of overgirth is a wrap strap arrangement. This is the one you'll see most often on mini harnesses and it has a tug loop with no dangling strap on the bottom. Instead it has a much longer sliding strap on the girth which you wrap around the shafts on each side and then buckle back to itself. Open tugs MUST be used with breeching. Must, must, must! There is nothing to keep the shaft from sliding forward through the loop without it, allowing the cart to run up on the horse's heels. Wrap straps, especially when used with tug stops (little projections on the shaft that keep it from easily going forward through the tug loop) can be used without breeching but do put a lot more pressure on the saddle during turning, braking, starting, and over rough ground.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Nov 29, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I think we are trying to say the same thing, but I beg to differ on the part names.
> 
> Just to clarify a little, there are two different kinds of overgirth (the harness part whose function is to keep the cart from flipping over backwards and to keep the shafts close to the horse's sides during turns.)
> 
> ...


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## studiowvw (Nov 29, 2010)

Thank you both so much for all that information about the harnesses!

I love all the detail! Can't believe how much I've learned from the people on this forum in the last couple of months. What a resource!

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Here are some close-up pictures of the vintage cart mechanics.

The first one is from the rear, under the seat. When you sit on the seat, the spring expands. (Also, the floor assembly doesn't hit the axle - not as close as they appear in this picture.)

Also the whole cart seems to flex quite a bit.






"A" is the hinge on the crossbar from which the seat/floorboard contraption is suspended.

"B" is the hook from which the spring is suspended. Those are the only points where the seat/floorboard assembly is connected to the cart.

"C" is a brace from the axle to the shaft just behind the spring. The metal fitting on the end of the shaft is welded to the axle.






The top of the spring can be unhooked. At the bottom, it can be hung from point "D" or "E".

When hooked at "E", the seat is about 3 inches higher than when the springs are hooked at "D".






"F" is a close-up of the hinge on the crossbar from which the seat/floorboard assembly is suspended. (Front view of "A" in the first picture.)

There's Lacey in the background mowing the lawn.

I think this cart must have been a hotrod version of a road cart



It looks quite elegant, except for the honkin' big springs which are quite startling when you first see it.

Wilma


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## Carriage (Nov 30, 2010)

Thanks for the pics Wilma.

This was bugging me half the day before I figured out how they may have done it. Your pictures however lead in a different direction than my "a ha" moment. I was thinking the break had to be somewhere in back, that I could not see from the previous photo's. Turns out they put the break in the loop in the front. Interesting. So long as there was a break somewhere, otherwise its just ineffective bolt on bling.

Mystery solved and all is well with the world again. (zen humming in the background...)

Bb


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 30, 2010)

Very interesting configuration; thanks for the excellent pics, which make things so much clearer! I couldn't tell those were actually coil springs in the single smaller pic; they looked like some sort of 'shock' cylinder to me! I wonder how unusual this set up really is; do know it's different from any I've ever seen before!!

Learn something new every day!!

Margo


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## RhineStone (Nov 30, 2010)

Carriage said:


> I was thinking the break had to be somewhere in back, that I could not see from the previous photo's. Turns out they put the break in the loop in the front. Interesting.


What do you mean by "break"?



I don't get it.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 30, 2010)

> *I think we are trying to say the same thing, but I beg to differ on the part names.*
> ...An overgirth is an overgirth. ... A wrap strap is a wrap strap. Yes, it functions in the same way, and yes, it is "over" the girth, but it is not an "Overgirth". ... No, an overgirth tug must be used with breeching. Both set ups have Open tugs compared to say French tugs


Yes, we are definitely differing only on part names.



You are absolutely correct that the official "overgirth" is the dangling part off an open tug. I believe I am also correct in classifying (not naming, but classifying) the entire assembly of tug bearing straps, tugs, overgirth/wrap straps as being an "overgirth." Race horses have overgirths, a band that goes around the saddle and the regular girth to hold everything together. A sliding backband assembly in particular to me is a sort of super-girth, i.e. a round band that goes around the horse just like a normal surcingle or girth but does so over the existing tightened one. What else would you call that but an "overgirth?"



I'm not near my driving books to go look but I'm fairly sure I got that term from one or another of them. Perhaps I simply mistook it from context though, i.e. "Tighten the overgirth" which I took to mean the assembly whether it was wrap straps or what I was calling an open tug.

As far as "open tug," yes, of course that refers specifically to a tug loop that does not contract around the shaft or open to receive marathon shafts whether or not there is a wrap strap. However when purchasing a harness, especially a miniature harness, they are sold as having either "wrap straps" or "open tugs," meaning one with an overgirth instead of wrap straps. I was using common vernacular to make things easier. With big horse harnesses open tugs with overgirth are assumed to be standard and you have to ask for wrap straps, Tilbury or French tugs. With miniature harnesses wrap straps are standard and they had to come up with a name for tugs with an overgirth. "Open tugs" is what they chose. Sorry!



When you tell them you want an overgirth they look at you funny and say "of course it has an overgirth. It's got wrap straps!"







> Now to qualify that, when I looked on the Ozark website at their mini show harness, I can see why there is the confusion. *What they call a French tug isn't*. See below. It's not quite an overgirth tug either, but it is closer to that than a French tug. While I don't know what to call this, it is definitely still "Open". A French tug wraps much tighter around the shaft, and the tug itself contributes to the ability to slow or stop the load. This tug wouldn't do that, but the straps off of it would.


Actually it is, it just isn't a very good one.



I have this harness and it _is_ made so that buckling the overgirth should contract the loop down around the shaft but the problem is they used the same doubled leather for the tug that they usually do so it's too thick to slide through the buckle to constrict!



You absolutely must have shaft/tug stops with this as they do effectively function as open tugs as far as lack of braking ability. Breeching would be better.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Nov 30, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> However when purchasing a harness, especially a miniature harness, they are sold as having either "wrap straps" or "open tugs," meaning one with an overgirth instead of wrap straps. I was using common vernacular to make things easier. With big horse harnesses open tugs with overgirth are assumed to be standard and you have to ask for wrap straps, Tilbury or French tugs. With miniature harnesses wrap straps are standard and they had to come up with a name for tugs with an overgirth. "Open tugs" is what they chose. Sorry! *When you tell them you want an overgirth they look at you funny and say "of course it has an overgirth. It's got wrap straps!" *
> 
> This is one reason that I am clarifying this for people, too. It frustrates me when miniature horse suppliers use the wrong terms.
> 
> ...


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## Carriage (Dec 1, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> What do you mean by "break"?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Suspension components have to have room to travel (compress and extend). The original photos showed what appeared to be a closed loop between the floor and the shaft. Without an opening between the floor and the shaft for spring travel, the spring is useless for the purpose intended and just becomes bolt on bling. The separation between the seat (floor boards) and the shafts provide this break needed to allow the suspension to travel. An interesting approach by this builder to be sure.

Bb


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## studiowvw (Dec 1, 2010)

Carriage said:


> An interesting approach by this builder to be sure.
> 
> Bb


The auctioneer's brother said he has one just like it and it has a plate indicating it was made in Brantford, Ontario, so maybe a manufacturer was turning them out.

W


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## RhineStone (Dec 1, 2010)

Carriage said:


> Suspension components have to have room to travel (compress and extend). The original photos showed what appeared to be a closed loop between the floor and the shaft. Without an opening between the floor and the shaft for spring travel, the spring is useless for the purpose intended and just becomes bolt on bling. The separation between the seat (floor boards) and the shafts provide this break needed to allow the suspension to travel. An interesting approach by this builder to be sure.
> 
> Bb


So you thought that the seat bar was attached to the shaft?




I totally understand what you said above, and concur, I just don't think I have ever heard it described that way.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 1, 2010)

> This is one reason that I am clarifying this for people, too. It frustrates me when miniature horse suppliers use the wrong terms.


Very true, although to be fair sometimes there is more than one acceptable term for a harness part like blinkers/blinders/winkers or breeching/britching.

I went hunting through some of my harness books this morning and found a diagram that showed the open tug loop labeled "Shaft tug," the dangling strap from that as the "tug billet," and the sliding buckle part on the girth as the "outer girth or over girth." This was in "Carriage Driving Essentials." So in that case you would have _either_ an over girth _or_ wrap strap, as you said, but it is the girth part and not the dangling strap that is the "overgirth" if I'm understanding correctly. That's only one book though and as we all know, there are many books and just as many opinions!







> Does it have a metal "cradle" that the shaft rests on? Yes, it wraps around the shaft some, but the Ozark example is built completely backwards from a real French tug. It's almost more of a "marathon" tug. Again, I would call French the wrong term. That contributes to the "raised eyebrows" that some big horse drivers give mini people. It's like calling any bit with a jointed mouthpiece a snaffle. It's wrong, yet suppliers do it because that is the common vernacular.


I see what you mean in scanning my books. French tugs slide through the side closest to the horse, not the side away, and do have a metal cradle. What is a Tilbury tug if that's the true French tug?



I'm so confused! I would say the Ozark one is nothing like a marathon tug though as marathon tugs do not constrict around the shaft and must by definition open to receive a closed loop marathon shaft, which this one does even less easily than a regular open tug.

Out of curiousity, what is the correct name for a non-French Link jointed mouthpiece if not "snaffle"? I understand "snaffle" refers to the sort of connection the bit has with the reins, i.e. a direct connection without leverage, but is there another name to correctly describe the basic jointed mouthpiece that usually constitutes a snaffle bit? Is it just "jointed," as in a jointed snaffle versus a mullen mouth snaffle?

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 1, 2010)

I have always called it an overgirth with wrap straps or tug straps/billets - the overgirth being the wider leather piece that slides through the saddle under the horse that either connects to the billets or has wrap straps connected that tie around the shaft.

A single jointed snaffle bit is commonly called "broken".

There are basically 2 types of bits - snaffle and curb or non leverage or leverage. The mouths on either can be one of hundreds if not thousands of types such as mullen, broken, french link, twisted, wire, etc. Snaffle or curb does refer to the way they are hung on the bridle. The snaffle being loosely held by the ring allowing for only direct rein pressure and the curb being held in a fixed position at the top of the ring allowing for leverage to be applied which puts pressure on the poll. You must use a chain or strap under the chin with a curb in order for it to work properly. Most curb type bits have cheeks or shanks where the reins can be attached and the lower you attach to the shank the more leverage is applied with the same amount of hand pressure. Different names have been given to the different styles of "shank" such as butterfly or Liverpool.


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## RhineStone (Dec 2, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> So in that case you would have _either_ an over girth _or_ wrap strap, as you said, but it is the girth part and not the dangling strap that is the "overgirth" if I'm understanding correctly.
> 
> Agreed. The Smucker's catalog points to the overgirth as being the piece of leather that has a buckle at each end and is "over" the reg. girth and attached to it "loosely" with a tab of leather and the absolute bottom. I didn't "part out" the rest of the parts of the overgirth system, I suppose because the "tug billet" is sewn on to the tug via the hardware.
> 
> ...


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## RhineStone (Dec 2, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> I have always called it an overgirth with wrap straps or tug straps/billets - the overgirth being the wider leather piece that slides through the saddle under the horse that either connects to the billets or has wrap straps connected that tie around the shaft.


That is what I am referring to. The harness maker catalogs identify those pieces separately. Yes, they both go _over_ the girth, but an overgirth is entirely a different piece from a wrap strap. Every piece of a harness has a name. Yes, some pieces can have multiple names for the same piece (winkers, blinkers, blinders), but if you order, per say, a martingale, do you want a running, a standing, or a false one?

I learned the hard way that the little piece of metal that is sewn into the breeching to accept the hip strap is called the breeching dee (my pony pulled his out



). The hip strap is only the flat leather, sometimes forked, that doesn't have any buckles. That doesn't include the little straps with the buckles that are sewn onto the breeching dees. I bet they have a different name. Yes, the whole assembly (breeching, dees, and those little straps with the buckles) is commonly known as the breeching, probably because it usually comes together (except when my pony pulls it apart.



) So every little piece has a separate name. Fascinating!

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 3, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> I think you are describing a Quick Release tug. We have this kind for one of our harnesses. (It won't let me copy the photo.) http://www.drivinges...thon_saddle.htm The difference between that and the Tilbury is that the bight of the tug bearing strap goes back into the buckle on the Tilbury. Ironically, we don't like them. With our well-sprung horses that we don't tighten the girth on a lot so that we don't gall them, these tugs don't work very well. The overgirth needs to be tighter for these tugs to hold up the shafts. We like the Quick Release tugs better for the marathon vehicle. Ozark definitely has their own design. It's almost like a reverse Marathon. The bight is outside the tug.


I'm not experienced with French tugs, Tilbury tugs or other pieces related to fine harness driving or Pleasure Show driving, but I do know CDE harnesses. The Driving Essentials harness on that link is the only occasion I have ever seen of a so-called "marathon tug" of that style!



The ones I've seen called marathon tugs are the quick releases as their purpose is to allow quick and easy hitching of closed-loop marathon shaft ends. What advantage is gained by using the style of tug shown on the D.E. harness? You'd have to pull that entire strap out to put the shaft end into the tug, fidget with getting it back through the buckle and then down behind the shaft against the horse's side, and to keep the tug closed and the shaft secured you'd have to buckle the overgirth into place. Am I missing something?







RhineStone said:


> (How do you do the double quote so I don't have to type in the quote box?
> 
> 
> 
> )


It's easier if you know a little coding.



When you hit the "reply" or "multiquote" buttons it automatically creates quote coding around the text of that post. All you have to do to break it up is copy the first quote tag, the one with the name and post time in it, and put it in front of each piece of text you want to quote separately. Then take the close quote tag (it looks like a square bracket, the "/" symbol, and then the word "quote" with another square bracket around it) from the end, copy it, and put it at the end of each section of text. Each piece of text you want to quote should have an opening and a closing tag surrounding it. Then you can just type below that and it will show up like my posts do. (I do have to manually select and copy your blue text from within the things you've replied to and paste it in the text box though as since the latest forum upgrade it doesn't include previously quoted text when you hit reply for some reason.)

There's also a quote tag in the text editing menu where bolding and such is, it looks like a little speech bubble. You can hit "reply," paste in your text you want to quote, then highlight the text and press the speech bubble icon to have it surround that text with quote code. It won't show who that text is by if you do that though. You can manually add that by looking at how it's written when the computer does it and copying the format. See how the quote above looks different from the one right below this? That's because I did the top two quotes manually.



RhineStone said:


> That is what I am referring to. The harness maker catalogs identify those pieces separately. Yes, they both go _over_ the girth, but an overgirth is entirely a different piece from a wrap strap. Every piece of a harness has a name. Yes, some pieces can have multiple names for the same piece (winkers, blinkers, blinders), but if you order, per say, a martingale, do you want a running, a standing, or a false one?


I think we're talking about the same stuff again.



Of course the harness maker labels them differently. He has to, or he wouldn't know which part you wanted to order! But a wrap strap is still a kind of overgirth, it's just the kind with a long wrap strap attached to the buckle assembly. Just as a running martingale, false martingale and standing martingale are all martingales. It's not wrong to call them a "martingale" although they also have a more specific designation indicating the differences!





Leia


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## RhineStone (Dec 3, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> What advantage is gained by using the style of tug shown on the D.E. harness? You'd have to pull that entire strap out to put the shaft end into the tug, fidget with getting it back through the buckle and then down behind the shaft against the horse's side, and to keep the tug closed and the shaft secured you'd have to buckle the overgirth into place. Am I missing something?


They are cheaper!



The only other thing is that sometimes the leather tug bearing strap is very stiff to use with Quick Releases. It doesn't release so quick when you have to fight with fat leather. Just changing the open tugs to the marathon tugs on the Smucker's harness was a production. Our Q.R. on the beta harness are MUCH easier to use. Again, those Marathon tugs are not my favorite anyway.





Thanks for the quote directions! I'll have to peruse them more thoroughly later.

Myrna


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## Sandee (Dec 4, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> ....................................................................................................
> 
> Out of curiousity, what is the correct name for a non-French Link jointed mouthpiece if not "snaffle"? I understand "snaffle" refers to the sort of connection the bit has with the reins, i.e. a direct connection without leverage, but is there another name to correctly describe the basic jointed mouthpiece that usually constitutes a snaffle bit? Is it just "jointed," as in a jointed snaffle versus a mullen mouth snaffle?
> 
> Leia


Here's a link to an explanation: http://www.horses-and-horse-information.com/articles/0100snaffles.shtml

It begins : "Simply put, a snaffle bit is a two-ring implement joined by a mouthpiece. It works through direct pressure - a pull on the left rein makes a direct line to the left ring of the bit. It is the bit of choice for young horses and novice riders

google_protectAndRun("render_ads.js::google_render_ad", google_handleError, google_render_ad);"It makes a good bit for training because it's simple for the horse to understand," says author and riding instructor Susan Harris. "Many people mistakenly think that the snaffle works by the joint's putting pressure on the roof of the mouth. Not so. The jointed-mouth snaffle bends in the middle and presses downward on the tongue, as well as exerting pressure on the bars and lips."

Another myth - any bit with a broken mouthpiece is a snaffle. Again not so, says Harris. "Curb or gag bits can have a jointed mouthpiece," she explains. "A snaffle bit can have several types of mouthpieces, including the straight Mullen mouth, the double-jointed French, or the Dr. Bristol. Don't be fooled, either, by the 'Tom Thumb snaffle,' which is actually a curb bit."


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## Minimor (Dec 5, 2010)

> );"It makes a good bit for training because it's simple for the horse to understand," says author and riding instructor Susan Harris. "Many people mistakenly think that the snaffle works by the joint's putting pressure on the roof of the mouth. Not so. The jointed-mouth snaffle bends in the middle and presses downward on the tongue, as well as exerting pressure on the bars and lips."


While this is technically true--it is not the intention that a jointed snaffle should "work" by putting pressure on the roof of the mouth--one must be careful when using the jointed snaffle on minis.
Minis very often don't have a lot of room in their mouths--they tend to have a lower palate/thicker tongue--this combined with the unfortunate tendency of many Mini sized bits to be poorly constructed makes it very likely that the joint will dig into the roof of the mouth when rein pressure is applied.

Some Mini bits have very large joints--I've seen bits with a 3 1/2" mouthpiece that had the joint the exact same size as the joint on some 5" bits. That is far too much joint to have in a Mini's mouth, and a bit with such a large joint has to poke into the palate when the reins are used. This has the effect of making the horse open his mouth in an effort to avoid having the bit press into his palate (which doesn't feel very good at all) and he won't be paying much use to the effect of the bit otherwise.


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 5, 2010)

In my experience, the single-jointed mouthpiece was called a 'broken-mouthed'...ONE joint, i.e., 'broken'. I would call things like a french-link, 'jointed'. It is NOT the mouthpiece that makes a bit a 'snaffle', but the 'no-leverage' aspect.

Most of the bits that 'come with' many harnesses are broken-mouthed, and sorry ones at that, with all the drawbacks mentioned by Minimor. I got rid of mine, replacing them w/ a variety of better-made, more-suitable-mouthpieced, bits.

Years ago, some did call the shanked but broken-mouthed bits, 'western snaffles' or similar designations, as did I, for a time, until I learned better! I used to use a western curb, recommended by my instructor, that was a curb w/ aluminum cheeks and a broken mouthpiece, made by Irvin QUICK. I had several horse that went quite well in it; I also had a couple of other QUICK bits-different mouthpieces--that worked well for several different horses. QUICK bits were a quality brand and are still being made; I checked at the big local Western store not too long ago!

Margo


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## RhineStone (Dec 5, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> Most of the bits that 'come with' many harnesses are broken-mouthed, and sorry ones at that, with all the drawbacks mentioned by Minimor.


I find that "Bit Included!" can also be the sign of a "sorry" harness from a manufacturer that doesn't know a whole lot about horses...or is just a good marketer for poor suckers who don't know any better...


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 5, 2010)

My first harness was a Smuckers Lite--hardly a 'sorry' harness from a mfg. who knew little about horses-yet it 'included' a 'not much' bit. In fact, I have NEVER bought a "sorry" harness, but have had several that included those 'not so great' bits. I've owned four Smuckers including a Russet Deluxe, two custom ordered Lutkes, two pair harnesses-one beta from The Carriage Shop in FL, and the other set which was probably the 'lowest' quality I've had; ordered it from the same individual(no longer making harness)who'd made the pair harness for the original Golden Horse and Carriage-built back-to-back trap that was the inspiration for the one I had built for myself; it is pretty enough,sturdy enough, and fits well, but lacks top quality finish detail)and a single beta harness from The Carriage Shop. Although it's been quite a while since I got most of my harnesses,I'm pretty sure that all except perhaps the second Lutke-and the Carriage Shop single- 'included' half cheek broken mouth bits which weren't much.So...though what you said IS sometimes the case, Myrna, it is not ALWAYS so.

Margo


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 5, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> My first harness was a Smuckers Lite--hardly a 'sorry' harness from a mfg. who knew little about horses-yet it 'included' a 'not much' bit. In fact, I have NEVER bought a "sorry" harness, but have had several that included those 'not so great' bits. I've owned four Smuckers including a Russet Deluxe, two custom ordered Lutkes, two pair harnesses-one beta from The Carriage Shop in FL, and the other set which was probably the 'lowest' quality I've had; ordered it from the same individual(no longer making harness)who'd made the pair harness for the original Golden Horse and Carriage-built back-to-back trap that was the inspiration for the one I had built for myself; it is pretty enough,sturdy enough, and fits well, but lacks top quality finish detail)and a single beta harness from The Carriage Shop. Although it's been quite a while since I got most of my harnesses,I'm pretty sure that all except perhaps the second Lutke-and the Carriage Shop single- 'included' half cheek broken mouth bits which weren't much.So...though what you said IS sometimes the case, Myrna, it is not ALWAYS so.
> 
> Margo


Yeah, I have to agree with what Margo says here - my top notch harnesses also came with a not much bit. My Ozark Mountain harnesses also come with a not much bit and they are quite serviceable and well made. I throw out the bits but keep the harnesses!


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## RhineStone (Dec 5, 2010)

What I was referring to more (and to give unknowing people a heads up) is that CAN (as I said in my original post) be a sign of a sorry harness. Think of those "butter soft", "premium" Ebay harnesses. "Everything's included", just "Bring out UR carts!"





Mini tack has come a long ways in the quality and the fit. I think when mini tack first came out, manufacturers didn't take minis as seriously as they do _now_, much because the consumer demanded that they take us seriously. The options for bits were pretty slim, and everybody used a jointed snaffle because that is what you could get. So why not include one with the harness because the consumer is going to need one anyway. As harness makers got more "educated" about the miniature horse and bit options were available, it probably didn't make sense to include a bit anymore. All three of my new Driving Essentials mini and pony harnesses didn't come with a bit. The Smucker's catalog from 2001 that I still have doesn't include a bit with any of their harnesses. I don't remember if my mom's - new in 1995 - mini harness came with a bit, but I do remember not having anything except a jointed snaffle and a mullen "stud bit" that we used on the green horses if we didn't need to use the jointed snaffle. The crummy, old used mini harness that we got first came with a bit because the old guy was selling out. I don't even remember if my mom's first harness - a 1980's big horse Amish-made harness - came with a bit, but the Amish (as a whole) don't pay that much attention to bitting, and assume that everyone must use a jointed snaffle....





Myrna


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 6, 2010)

studiowvw said:


> Wilma


I went through a few of my books on carriages and found something similar to your "sulky" or "road cart" - it seems to be a sort of crossover between the two. The vehicle I found was intended for use on the road and quite often by mailcarriers which might explain the "shocks" to make the ride smoother.


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## studiowvw (Dec 6, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> I went through a few of my books on carriages and found something similar to your "sulky" or "road cart" - it seems to be a sort of crossover between the two. The vehicle I found was intended for use on the road and quite often by mailcarriers which might explain the "shocks" to make the ride smoother.


Well, that makes a lot of sense. The soft ride is great. If you were running the roads every day delivering mail, I can see you'd want something like this.

W


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