# Founder question



## AppyLover2

I've read past threads on founder and have questions and/or need clarification about a few things.

My farrier was here on Monday and showed me lines in her hoof that indicate that one of my lil ones has foundered at some point. She was obese and I've made pretty good headway getting weight off her this winter.

I'm currently feeding Strategy. Is it ok to continue with that feed? Or is there something out there that would be better for her?

Obviously she can no longer be on pasture 24/7 but the farrier did say that it would probably be ok to let her back on grass once it's lost it's spring lushness (June-July). Would appreciate thoughts on his comment.

I have her on a joint supplement (started it before finding out about the founder) which has seemed to help her move around a bit easier. Is there something else I should get for her?

Any help/advice would be sincerely appreciated.....I've never dealt with founder before.


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## Champ

I've never had to deal with founder before....thank god




but it sounds like your doing the right things ro me


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## Hosscrazy

My first question is why did your horse founder - was it because of the obesity issue or is she IR (insulin resistant). That's the main question to ask your vet - what caused her founder. I'm not sure how to answer your question on Strategy, since the answer is really tied into the question of cause. IF your horse is IR, then I personally would not have the horse on Strategy as the NSC level would be much too high. Here's the breakdown of NSC (non-structural carbohydrates) by popular feed. Again, it really depends on the cause of her founder.

LMF - Low Carb Complete Stage 1 - 11% or less

LMF Senior - 30%

FARNAM:

Platform Senior - 16.1%

BLUE SEAL:

Vintage Gold - 32%

Vintage Mare Foal - 33%

Vintage Senior - 20%

Vintage Racer - 30%

Vintage Sweet - 35%

Vintage Victory 36%

Demand - 26%

Contender - 34%

Hunter - 33%

Trotter - 25%

Sport 40%

Strider - 42%

Charger - 39%

Pacer - 48%

Rider - 44%

Horse 10 - 45%

POULIN:

Senior 31.3%

MVP - 17.4% (27% protein)

Stablemate 14 complete - 16.3%

Endure 10:12 - 33.7%

Endure 10:8 - 33.9%

Carb Safe - 10% or less

SEMINOLE Happy Hoof - 15%

Sterett Low Carb Complete (pelleted - hay) - 8.6%

TRIPLE CROWN:

10% performance - 41.5%

14% performance - 38.2%

Complete 21.7%

Senior - 15.7%

Growth - 19.8%

Low Starch - 15.0%

Lite - 15.9%

12% - 29.7%

PURINA:

Horse Chow 100 - 16%

Horse Chow 200 - 18%

Strategy - 28%

Omelene 100 - 40.5% (eeegads!)

Equine Adult - 20%

Equine Jr - 23%

Equine Sr - 22%

Complete Advantage 22.9% (beet pulp based)

Nature Essentials (Mare & Main) supplement - 16% (protein about 12-14%)

Nature Essentials Born to Win 16% (but 32% protein)

NUTRENA -

SafeChoice - 28% (12% sugar, 16% starch)


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## chandab

AppyLover2 said:


> I've read past threads on founder and have questions and/or need clarification about a few things.
> 
> My farrier was here on Monday and showed me lines in her hoof that indicate that one of my lil ones has foundered at some point. She was obese and I've made pretty good headway getting weight off her this winter.
> 
> I'm currently feeding Strategy. Is it ok to continue with that feed? Or is there something out there that would be better for her?
> 
> Obviously she can no longer be on pasture 24/7 but the farrier did say that it would probably be ok to let her back on grass once it's lost it's spring lushness (June-July). Would appreciate thoughts on his comment.
> 
> I have her on a joint supplement (started it before finding out about the founder) which has seemed to help her move around a bit easier. Is there something else I should get for her?
> 
> Any help/advice would be sincerely appreciated.....I've never dealt with founder before.



Stategy has kind of a high NSC (sugar/starch) level of 28%; so you might want to get her onto a lower NSC product. [Also, no grain for her; no oats, no barley, no corn. Limited alfalfa, some tolerate it, some don't.]

Purina makes Born to Win and Mare & Maintenance which are both under 16%; Purina Horse Chow 100, Purina Horse Chow 200 and Purina Adult are 20% or less. Triple Crown has a few products that would be good: TC Lite, LC Low Starch and TC Senior are all under 16%; TC also makes Safe Starch a complete feed with under 10% NSC (its chopped forage in a bag with a vitamin/mineral pellet added to balance). Nutrena's Lite Balance is about 17%. [These numbers were gathered by a friend of mine with a foundered mare, they aren't listed on the bags; some companies readily share the information with you, others don't, so samples have been sent to testing labs by concerned individuals. This is not an all inclusive list, but covers quite of few of the more popular brands and products.]

I have a previously foundered mare, she's been doing pretty good on Progressive Nutrition ProAdvantage grass formula (ration balancer) and grass hay; plus a small amount of soaked beet pulp (non-molasses beet pulp pellets) and a supplement called Remission (its for founder prone horses). Its important to keep them on a regular hoof trimming schedule; how far between trims depends on the individual (in summer my girl needs every 4 weeks, in winter its every 6).


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## targetsmom

I had experience with a foundered mare over 40 years ago before we knew as much as we know now. She had a very heavy crest, which we now know can be associated with a higher risk of founder. One of the big problems with founder is that once they founder, it seems easier for them to do it again and again.

I currently have a young mini show mare with a slightly heavy crest and of course I want to do everything possible so that she never founders. I feed her Nutrena Senior Feed - a complete feed which is fairly low in NSCs (I can't remember the number the Nutrena nutritionist quoted me, and it can change), soaked beet pulp that I rinse the molasses off, and hay. I try to give her good quality hay but not the really fine, almost grass-like second cutting hay that I sometimes get (and the others love!). It seems like when she gets the really nice hay, her neck blows up - kind of like eating ice cream and having it go right to your thighs!! She also gets a daily wormer, vitamins, and the Remission that someone else mentioned. That is a Magnesium and Chromium supplement designed specifically for founder-prone horses. Oh, and she also gets a tiny amount of soaked alfalfa cubes along with everyone else as part of her bedtime snack. Can you say SPOILED??

She is the black and white mare in the snow in my handy new avatar.


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## barefoot

Hosscrazy said:


> My first question is why did your horse founder - was it because of the obesity issue or is she IR (insulin resistant). That's the main question to ask your vet - what caused her founder. I'm not sure how to answer your question on Strategy, since the answer is really tied into the question of cause. IF your horse is IR, then I personally would not have the horse on Strategy as the NSC level would be much too high. Here's the breakdown of NSC (non-structural carbohydrates) by popular feed. Again, it really depends on the cause of her founder.
> 
> LMF - Low Carb Complete Stage 1 - 11% or less
> 
> LMF Senior - 30%
> 
> FARNAM:
> 
> Platform Senior - 16.1%
> 
> BLUE SEAL:
> 
> Vintage Gold - 32%
> 
> Vintage Mare Foal - 33%
> 
> Vintage Senior - 20%
> 
> Vintage Racer - 30%
> 
> Vintage Sweet - 35%
> 
> Vintage Victory 36%
> 
> Demand - 26%
> 
> Contender - 34%
> 
> Hunter - 33%
> 
> Trotter - 25%
> 
> Sport 40%
> 
> Strider - 42%
> 
> Charger - 39%
> 
> Pacer - 48%
> 
> Rider - 44%
> 
> Horse 10 - 45%
> 
> POULIN:
> 
> Senior 31.3%
> 
> MVP - 17.4% (27% protein)
> 
> Stablemate 14 complete - 16.3%
> 
> Endure 10:12 - 33.7%
> 
> Endure 10:8 - 33.9%
> 
> Carb Safe - 10% or less
> 
> SEMINOLE Happy Hoof - 15%
> 
> Sterett Low Carb Complete (pelleted - hay) - 8.6%
> 
> TRIPLE CROWN:
> 
> 10% performance - 41.5%
> 
> 14% performance - 38.2%
> 
> Complete 21.7%
> 
> Senior - 15.7%
> 
> Growth - 19.8%
> 
> Low Starch - 15.0%
> 
> Lite - 15.9%
> 
> 12% - 29.7%
> 
> PURINA:
> 
> Horse Chow 100 - 16%
> 
> Horse Chow 200 - 18%
> 
> Strategy - 28%
> 
> Omelene 100 - 40.5% (eeegads!)
> 
> Equine Adult - 20%
> 
> Equine Jr - 23%
> 
> Equine Sr - 22%
> 
> Complete Advantage 22.9% (beet pulp based)
> 
> Nature Essentials (Mare & Main) supplement - 16% (protein about 12-14%)
> 
> Nature Essentials Born to Win 16% (but 32% protein)
> 
> NUTRENA -
> 
> SafeChoice - 28% (12% sugar, 16% starch)


I love this list! Thank you, Hope you don't mind if I print this out. May I ask how you put this together or where you got it?

Emma


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## Hosscrazy

> I love this list! Thank you, Hope you don't mind if I print this out. May I ask how you put this together or where you got it? Emma


In addition to moderating the LB Forum, I also moderate the Yahoo Cushings/IR forum (IR meaning Insulin Resistance). Diet plays a critical role in IR horses and the choice in feed for IR horses can literally mean the difference between life and death. We have compiled this list over the years to help the owners of Cushings/IR horses.

Glad to hear you found this list helpful. If you ever need your feed analyzed, go to:

http://www.dairyone.com and there is a form you can print and send in with your feed sample. They provide quality analysis on feed and hay.

Liz R.


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## Fred

I have an IR mare that is on Pure Pride 100 it is a pelleted feed like Strategy but has less fat. Becky was diagnosed several years ago and has been on this feed ever since and it really works well. I also use it on horses that tend to be cresty. It still gives them enough energy to fit up and stay in really good condition as I use it on the driving horses I know it works. By the way Becky is a National Grand Champion CP Driving mare and was diagnosed after she had won one grand then went on to win 2 more. Linda


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## AppyLover2

Just wanted to thank those of you who responded. Liz.....that list is great! Now I'll have to find out which of those feeds is available in my area. In the meanwhile I started transitioning her over to Purina Senior last night since that's what I feed my big guy. I don't know when or what caused her to founder. It was long enough ago that the hoof that was trimmed off showed signs of it. I will continue to keep her on the joint supplement as she was actually running and bucking a bit yesterday with the geldings....did my heart good to see that! Will also have her checked for IR and try to find Remission so I can start her on that.

Also appreciate the comments about a cresty neck as the pony has one. Guess when I see what feed is available around here with lower NCS (thanks again for that list Liz) I should just put them all on it.

Any comments about what the farrier said about letting them out on grass later in the year???? Keeping her in a dry lot is gonna be difficult for me. Although I know it's for her own good.....I'm gonna feel guilty about it every time the others go out.


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## Hosscrazy

Again, it really depends on what caused your mare to founder. The typical symptoms of IR include:

- Easy weight gain

- Abnormal fat desposits such as a cresty neck or lumpy, cellulite-like fat at the tail base. These fat deposits will usually persist even if the horse loses weight elsewhere on his body

- Puffiness (fat) in the hollows above the eyes

- History of laminitis – commonly induced by grass

- Advanced symptoms include increased thirst and urination, loss of body condition, especially muscle, weakness, low energy levels

If you can, it would be a good idea to have your vet come out and run a simple blood insulin test, which will tell you whether or not your horse is IR. While you're at it, it couldn't hurt to run thyroid function tests (ask for both T3 and T4 tests).

Both grass and/or Purina Equine Senior are NOT good choices for IR horses. I have absolutely no doubt in my mind that it was the Equine Senior that threw my mare into full blown laminitis with severe coffin bone rotation (founder). At the time, I did not know anything about IR nor did I know that my mare was Cushings/IR. Sure would have made a world of difference if I had know back then what I know today.

Best wishes,

Liz R.


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## MiLo Minis

AS far as keeping your mare on grass I would be very careful with it. Keep her off the lush spring growth and introduce her very slowly and carefully. 15 minutes to 1/2 hour per day for the first week and then add an hour a day each week until you get her up to full turnout. Keep a close eye on her. Watch for warmth in her feet, diarreah, standing funny. And if you must keep her on dry lot don't feel bad about it - you could be saving her life!


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## Marty

Hey Dona, I lost a great western pleasure gelding from severe rotation and also my old pony foundered too so this is a subject near and dear to my heart. Then this past fall, Sonny my old QH got himself in a "laminetic state" and nearly foundered also. Took a lot to get him stablized but he did. Like Target's mom said, many years ago when these things happened there was pretty much no hope but today, there are lists of things you can do now. The first thing I did was to bring in a Pete Ramey trained farrier, then get him off of Purina Equine Sr. and replace it with Purina Horse Chow. He was not amused. He's a sugar hound. Then I changed the beet pulp to the one with no mollasses and also rinsed it. Again, he was getting cranky about that too. I also had to keep his feet soaked in cold water two-three times daily, put him on bute for a week, buy him easyboots OldMac#2, feed him biotin and put him on other gags for artheritis and cipex and remission found at jeffers http://www.jeffersequine.com/ssc/products....amp;dept_id=847

As for the spring grass, yes you have to watch it because that is when the sugars are high. If I were you, I wouldn't take the chance to turn your horse free on it free choice. I would definately moniter and limit grazing time to a few minutes.

The other thing is the fall grass. Nobody seems to keep in mind that new growth also comes in fall, although for a very short time so moniter that also.


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## zacharyfarms

The NSC for the Farnham Platform Miniature Horse and Pony feed is 10% according to Farnham. Although the Cushings group has it listed above 20%. I spoke to them on the phone and they told me 10% but it needs to be analyzed to be sure. The Triple Crown Safe Starch Forage is less than 10%. I have an IR mare that developed laminitis and we have been through all the testing . Thank goodness for the Cushings group..they have been wonderful.


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## AppyLover2

For some reason this topic is bouncing all over the Lil Beginnings forum. Looked for it 3 times yesterday and thought it had disappeared, but guess it was just hiding. Just wanted to thank you all again for your replies and advice. Marty, I'll be checking on availability of that Purina Horse Chow.


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## Cara

My 19 year old mare founderd in november, and i didnt even see it coming, once they have , its a higher chance they will again, theres also differnt reasons for founder, with china it was grass, she was put out on lush grass, and a week later she founderd, i had the farrier out the next day or so, i also called the vet , and all i did was spray her hoofs with cold water 4times a day for 10 mins, and give her somthing for the pain as well, and it cleared up with in a week!! now the farrier i had out to look and china i am now using and he is the only one i will alow to work on her ! now if i have to put china out, and theres grass i put a grazing musle, oh also when they are foundering take them off grain, hay and water, is what i did! and it worked! hope i helped! i know it scard me a great deal, so you have to be cautious!!! good luck


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## gallop83

AppyLover2 said:


> I've read past threads on founder and have questions and/or need clarification about a few things.
> 
> My farrier was here on Monday and showed me lines in her hoof that indicate that one of my lil ones has foundered at some point. She was obese and I've made pretty good headway getting weight off her this winter.
> 
> I'm currently feeding Strategy. Is it ok to continue with that feed? Or is there something out there that would be better for her?
> 
> Obviously she can no longer be on pasture 24/7 but the farrier did say that it would probably be ok to let her back on grass once it's lost it's spring lushness (June-July). Would appreciate thoughts on his comment.
> 
> I have her on a joint supplement (started it before finding out about the founder) which has seemed to help her move around a bit easier. Is there something else I should get for her?
> 
> Any help/advice would be sincerely appreciated.....I've never dealt with founder before.



I am a certified farrier from Casey & Son School of Horseshoeing and Research Center in LaFayette, GA.

The foundered horses brought there for research are all fed the Purina Strategy. You want to be careful with any of the complete feeds when feeding horses that have foundered from obesity. Most complete feeds are almost equal to putting your horse out on a lush pasture. If the horse is an easy keeper, it might do just fine on proper rations of good hay. If not, I would stick with strategy along with a little hay (not straight alfalfa) and just make sure not to over feed. The lines your farrier showed you in the hoof is the whiteline. In foundered horses that line has a stretched look from the blood and fluid filling between the wall and the sensitive structures, restricting circulation, thus stretching the area. Your farrier is also right about when to turn your horse out on pasture again. If you have anymore questions I would be glad to try and help you out. I hope everything turns out well for your horse.


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## AppyLover2

I just wanted to thank everyone again for the advice and input. Kitty is doing much better. Actually yesterday she was running around the barn lot like a little banshee, nipping and bumping the geldings to try to get them to play with her. When they didn't cooperate she'd run up and kick 'em. LOL Did my heart good to see her so full of energy and playing like that. I'll try to post before and after pictures so you can see the weight loss. It's taken a long time but the diet and Thyro L have done it. Hopefully time is getting close to being able to let them out in the pasture again as the grass heads (although it's chest high) are beginning to turn yellow. Hope they come and get it cut and bailed soon as right now those little ones would get lost in it. I never would have believed having TOO much grass would be such a problem.


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## krissy3

I have delt with founder a few times with a few minis at a friends barn. This is one way to deal with it. If it is happening at this time you can stall him /her and give a very low quality hay for a few days , like second or 3rd cut or straw. If the horse is in pain a little bute is a good idea , but not too much , its hard on the kidneys, 1/4 tablet 1 time per day for 2 days would be Ok depending on the horse and the pain.And cut back on any sugar. Then to keep this from happening again , I let my horses in pasture for 6 hours or so a day then I put them in another pasture , smaller and without grass for the night and rest of the time . It seems to help , and forces them to get a little good dry grass in them. You will have to try a few different things , every horse is different . My mare gets diariha when she eats too much grass, or she is eating something that does not agree with her. When I give her a little time away from the pasture , and mix a little straw in her diet it seems to balance everything .

good luck


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## pennypony

AppyLover2 said:


> I've read past threads on founder and have questions and/or need clarification about a few things.
> My farrier was here on Monday and showed me lines in her hoof that indicate that one of my lil ones has foundered at some point. She was obese and I've made pretty good headway getting weight off her this winter.
> 
> I'm currently feeding Strategy. Is it ok to continue with that feed? Or is there something out there that would be better for her?
> 
> Obviously she can no longer be on pasture 24/7 but the farrier did say that it would probably be ok to let her back on grass once it's lost it's spring lushness (June-July). Would appreciate thoughts on his comment.
> 
> I have her on a joint supplement (started it before finding out about the founder) which has seemed to help her move around a bit easier. Is there something else I should get for her?
> 
> Any help/advice would be sincerely appreciated.....I've never dealt with founder before.


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## pennypony

AppyLover2 said:


> I've read past threads on founder and have questions and/or need clarification about a few things.
> My farrier was here on Monday and showed me lines in her hoof that indicate that one of my lil ones has foundered at some point. She was obese and I've made pretty good headway getting weight off her this winter.
> 
> I'm currently feeding Strategy. Is it ok to continue with that feed? Or is there something out there that would be better for her?
> 
> Obviously she can no longer be on pasture 24/7 but the farrier did say that it would probably be ok to let her back on grass once it's lost it's spring lushness (June-July). Would appreciate thoughts on his comment.
> 
> I have her on a joint supplement (started it before finding out about the founder) which has seemed to help her move around a bit easier. Is there something else I should get for her?
> 
> Any help/advice would be sincerely appreciated.....I've never dealt with founder before.


I am dealing with my 15 yr. old 38" mare having foundered. This is not her first time to founder, tho I try to feed her correctly. What seems to trigger her is when she comes in heat in the spring. This month was the worst episode. Of course, she had gotten out on the spring grass too. I had to Bute her for the pain but cut back on that as it seemed to get her "high". I am now giving her a supplement named HEIRO. It's all herbal and I hope it works. I just started her on it. I feed her Nurtrena Safe Choice pellets and grass hay. She gets a scant cup of the pellets usually 3 times a day and about 3 lbs. of hay. I also just purchased a grazing muzzle. She will have to wait 'til the grass dries out mid summer before I dare let her graze. BTW, I had a pony founder on giving Strategy - I gave her what the feed mill manager suggested but I stopped using that product when the pony foundered. Safe Choice is good because it is low in starch/sugar. I don't think it caused the founder in my mini mare - it was the combo of her coming in heat & getting some spring grass in her. It's sad to see our little pals in pain & crippled. I hope my mare recovers & that your mini doesn't founder any more. Good luck!


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## Dent Kickapoo Kitty

I am having the same problems with my rescued miniature mare. This is not her first time foundering at our farm. At the moment she lives in the smallest field we have. We are at the point of putting her down due to her age and cause she can't go through an other episode.


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