# We have met the enemy...



## Jean_B (Apr 4, 2013)

Yes, for those of you of a (ahem) certain age, I am quoting from Pogo. And yes, WE (collectively...both experienced and the newbies) are the enemy when it comes to the state of the miniature horse industry today. NOT because of so-called "over breeding" but because of POOR PLANNING in breeding.

On another social media, there was a post about the need to know pedigrees in dogs...and I quote: "Pedigrees are more important than names on a piece of paper. To top breeders, pedigree analysis is more important than DNA because a top breeder can "read" genetic soundness."

It may have been posted on a dog site, but it is true for the miniature horse breeder too. Breeding a mare that is "cute" but cheap with poor quality genetics to a stallion that is cheap and poor quality genetics is NO DIFFERENT than allowing your female dog to run loose and be bred to whatever mutt happens into your yard!! And you know what happens in the dog-world....those pups end up being given away or disposed of...and that is what happens in the miniature horse world. In the wrong hands, that cheap, poorly conformed mare will continue to spew out a foal every year that will serve no purpose and could likely end up being abused/neglected when the "romance" of having that little horse wears off.

FOR THE NEWBIE - PLEASE...before you go looking for a pet for your kids and decide to get that cute filly because "we might want to have our kids experience having a new foal" (never mind that the filly has a parrot-mouth, crooked legs, etc.) get a gelding. LEARN about how to give TOP QUALITY care. If you don't have any experience with horses, LEARN from your horse and from others that can teach you. And definitely do NOT get a stallion for your kids if you don't have any experience. GET A GELDING...a stallion has one thing on his brain when he reaches a certain age and it certainly isn't listening to someone who doesn't know what they are doing. As yourself - these little horses live a LONG time (many times over 25 years)...ARE YOU READY FOR THAT KIND OF COMMITMENT??

FOR THE BREEDER - PLEASE...before you sell to that newbie - make sure they are getting the best "fit" for their circumstances. If they come to you wanting a pet, for the animal's sake please don't sell them an intact colt because 9 times out of 10, it will end up being dumped at an auction or sold to someone down the street when it gets to be too much for them to handle. If they know nothing...for pete's sake, don't sell them a mare 'because they might want a foal some day'. Steer them in the direction of a quiet, well trained gelding, and give them written instructions on care, feeding, and stabling/exercise needs of that horse.

OK - off my soapbox. Fire away!


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## Minimor (Apr 4, 2013)

Well said Jean!!!


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## minih (Apr 4, 2013)

I agree Jean and try to do that, but beware it doesn't always work in your favor. I had a lady call me this past weekend looking for a mini for her two young children, ages 4 and 7. She had found my number by searching on the internet and found my website, so called to ask about mini's. I told her I had two geldings for sale, I told her I would make her a deal if she would take the two geldings together since I also do not like to sell horses where there will be no company for them. They live not too far away, the next town over and assured her I could help her with feeding and care. I told her whether she bought from me or someone else please do not buy a young colt for her two kids that someone would be hurt before it was over. She wanted to buy a young foal instead of one grown, which I do not have at the moment, and then she said I could probably get a colt and then geld it later. I then tried to explain some colts behavior while waiting for a teste to drop.




My talk fell on deaf ears. People do not want to hear what you have to say if it interferes with their plans. I don't care if she didn't want my geldings, they will find a good home.


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## muffntuf (Apr 4, 2013)

Good common sense.


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## Jean_B (Apr 4, 2013)

minih said:


> My talk fell on deaf ears. People do not want to hear what you have to say if it interferes with their plans. I don't care if she didn't want my geldings, they will find a good home.


You know I admire you and your program....and you can take a lot of comfort in knowing you did the right thing for those geldings...and just remember....you can't fix 'stupid'.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 4, 2013)

Jean, thank you! Very well said. I would like to add one thing about new people wanting a pet for their kids, an older well trained mini is so much better then an untrained foal or untouched young horse. On another note, I just lost a sale, a potential buyer saw one of my stallions that I have listed, they e-mailed me requesting more info and pictures which I sent. They ooohhed and aawwed and said they wanted to purchase him. I think great, and then I start asking some questions as I want to know where my guy is going and what they want to use him for, as he has been a proven stud for the last five years, although he will stand and show but doesn't drive. They said that their daughter, age 10 wanted him. I said well then I would recommend gelding him for her, I could do it here if they made a deposit or sell him with a gelding contract. I never heard back. Oh well.


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## newtominis (Apr 4, 2013)

I can't agree more...I got my first mini who is a gelding, and he is more than a handful on his own!


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## Marty (Apr 4, 2013)

Its because they have breeding on the mind so they can make a dime or two. They may not tell you this up front and lie about it being "for the kids" but most have definate intentions to breed any two ends that they can fit together to reproduce anything they can put a price tag on and get some change in their greedy pockets.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 4, 2013)

I need to add something about pedigree. I own a stallion the one in my avatar and several mares that are his only. All have great pedigrees and have all earned their fair share of awards and championships, so I price accordingly. Last year I had a breeder of big horses come by wanting either a mare or stallion, she wasn't interested in the geldings. Said she only wants a pet. I offered her several of my registered mares, a couple that could be good show horses, but, I was offering them at reduced prices since I can't show them all, and am no longer breeding for profit. She wasn't interested in any of them, but, she wanted the one filly we were planning on showing this year that is full sibling to a World top five, and is priced accordingly. I told her her price but was low if she showed her. She said she wasn't interested in showing or breeding and couldn't understand why this fillies price was higher then the others. I explained her pedigree, going back several generations, all show horses, all famous. She told me she was new to minis and didn't know anything about pedigrees, so I gave her a couple copiies or MHW. I also gave her some web-site info so she could check on pedigrees and show quality. She said she'd get back to me. I'm still waiting. I think this woman knew a great horse when she saw one, just didn't want to pay for it, and maybe she didn't know anything about mini pedigrees, but obviously was not interested in learning.


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## Scooter (Apr 4, 2013)

Hi Jean_B,

This information would be SO valuable to anyone doing a Google search like "should a beginner buy a colt" or something like that...

Unfortunately, by the time they get in here to this excellent Forum it may already be too late. That's what happened to us but we have no intention of getting rid of Scooter now - he's a great wee fella and we're 100% committed to him - he is just very highly sexed for a 9mth old and practising on the new yearling colt (who is ready to be gelded in the next couple of weeks) we have just bought to be his friend. Never crossed my mind that Scooter would want to make babies with a COLT but my husband who is from a farming background says that is not unusual behaviour. We will be getting Scooter gelded too but as you say they display some undesirable behaviour when waiting for them to drop fully! The horses paddock is at the other side of our garden fence and my daughter keeps asking "Mummy, why is Scooter's..." and I try to distract her and she says "But why is..." and I distract her - lol. She won't need the facts of life explained to her before too long :/

As for the Breeder who sold Scooter to us - she was very nice but we explained we were new to horses and that he was for our 11 year old daughter. We trusted her - which seems to be a foolish thing to do these days...


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## mdegner (Apr 5, 2013)

I had someone reach out the other day because her daughter wanted to breed a little 3 year old mare they had and experience having a baby. I asked them about their reasons for wanting to breed and mentioned that minis can have significant foaling problems and it's not for the feint of heart. She wanted to know about stud fees and how to locate a stud, etc. Her horse does not have papers but a nice little pet mare (in my opinion). I told her we weren't even doing much breeding because there are so many minis out there and we have a limit for how many we have on the farm. She let me know the main reason was her daughter wanted to drive a pair of minis and her dad told her she couldn't buy another horse but could buy a breeding and have a baby. So I told her she may have a hard time finding someone who would breed an unregistered horse but that maybe if she works on her husband, they can look at this differently and take advantage of all the GREAT geldings out there. Sadly for less or the same amount of money as a breeding. I don't know if that will work or not. I tried......

I am not picking on them or judging them. They have other animals and are farmers and have a different way of looking at animals than many of us do. I hope they reconsider and find a nice gelding.


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## dannigirl (Apr 5, 2013)

mdegner said:


> I had someone reach out the other day because her daughter wanted to breed a little 3 year old mare they had and experience having a baby. I asked them about their reasons for wanting to breed and mentioned that minis can have significant foaling problems and it's not for the feint of heart. She wanted to know about stud fees and how to locate a stud, etc. Her horse does not have papers but a nice little pet mare (in my opinion). I told her we weren't even doing much breeding because there are so many minis out there and we have a limit for how many we have on the farm. She let me know the main reason was her daughter wanted to drive a pair of minis and her dad told her she couldn't buy another horse but could buy a breeding and have a baby. So I told her she may have a hard time finding someone who would breed an unregistered horse but that maybe if she works on her husband, they can look at this differently and take advantage of all the GREAT geldings out there. Sadly for less or the same amount of money as a breeding. I don't know if that will work or not. I tried......
> 
> I am not picking on them or judging them. They have other animals and are farmers and have a different way of looking at animals than many of us do. I hope they reconsider and find a nice gelding.


What they are not looking at is that if they breed and get a foal from the mare, it could be way taller or way shorter than its mother and not do well as a team anyway. They need (and I know they won't understand) to find another horse that matches their mare for a team and they will be much happier with the results.


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## MyMiniGal (Apr 5, 2013)

It amazes me, at how many people want to "breed" animals, they know nothing about. I was looking for either a gelding or a mare, when I went looking for my first Mini. I had an opportunity to get a beautiful gelding, from another place, but they wanted almost 4 times as much for him, than I got Halo for. I at first thought that was what I was going to have to pay, but then Halo sort of fell into my lap. Yes, she is a mare, but she will never, ever be bred. For one, she has a slight overbite, and another, that isn't what I want. If I want another mini, I will go look for another mare or a gelding. I use to breed Parrotlets and went through a lot of heartache with them. I will never ever breed anything again. I know my heart wouldn't be able to take it. As for it being "for the kids". I work at a preschool/daycare...I can say with certainy that the kids won't care. I mean, yeah, once the foal is born, it would be oooh, and awww, but after awhile, most of them will careless. Unfortunately, things like video games take over when they are way too young.


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## MountainWoman (Apr 6, 2013)

MDegner, I see ads all the time on FB mini pages offering stud service to unregistered mares. Usually the price is 100 to 150.


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## mdegner (Apr 6, 2013)

MoutainWoman, that may be. I sure as heck wasn't going to help them find a stud . . .


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## ruffian (Apr 6, 2013)

OK - on MY Soapbox - Miniature horses are pretty much the ONLY breed where folks "New" to horses buy a colt or filly, and the first thought is "LET'S BREED IT!" Let's keep this little knock kneed big headed long backed little colt a stud "because he's SOOOO cute" and find a matching mare and MAKE SOME MONEY! And they do - a parrot mouthed big headed mare who's feet go in six different directions, but she's a LOUD pinto with a LONG MANE AND TAIL! Definintely quality in the making! These folks wouldn't dream of keeping an Arabian or Quarter Horse stallion, or letting their 10 year old daughter handle it. Yes, there are always ads on Craig's List, etc., for a "Show Quality" stud for only $100 or $150 stud fee. I've seen the ads, and the corresponding photos, and I cringe. I had a lady come up to me at an event a few weeks ago who had bought a mare at auction, and then, of course, bought a young colt, but didn't want to wait, and wanted to breed to my World Grand Champion Senior Stallion. She asked my stud fee, and (knowing where she was going with it), told her it was $3,000 to approved mares. She got offended - and wanted to know why it was so much?? I told her his record spoke for itself. She then mentioned an ad on Craig's list, and I told her she was welcome to check that stallion out. Think I made her mad because I haven't heard back LOL!

Many reputable breeders are trying to promote geldings, but everybody thinks their going to get rich if they start breeding. Geez wish it would happen soon, cause I've been working at this for 20 years and am lucky to break even!!!


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## LindaL (Apr 7, 2013)

I so agree with this!

I cringe every time I check out Craigslist and see ads for a Mini stud that is a "kid's pony"...oh but wait...In the very next sentence they say he is a wonderful stud and produces cute babies! UGH! Looking at the pics they have on the ad, the stallion usually looks dwarfy and certainly not worthy of keeping as a breeding stallion! I have "tried" to educate people by replying to their ads with information, but it always falls on deaf ears...*sigh*


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## Jill (Apr 7, 2013)

You are so right on!

I'm not in this to make money. Ha! This is a lot harder than things that pay much better...

A long time ago, someone told me that you shouldn't breed two horses (or two anythings) if you would not be thrilled with an exact duplicate of what you consider the lesser of the pair. I think that's a pretty good rule of thumb.

There are only so many people that can and would want to own a miniature horse, and we are bringing forth animals that may be here for thirty or more years. It's a steep responsibility, and I think it's important to not just make something because you can.


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## targetsmom (Apr 7, 2013)

What really scares me about all this is a thread on here recently about who is still breeding and who is giving it up and why. There seemed to be a lo of us smaller breeders - that DO breed two minis together that we would be thrilled with an exact duplicate of either one - that are going out of breeding. I think that is sad. And for me, a major reason is that people see what they can get on Craig's list and have no idea of what the difference is between that and quality. I figured out that just giving each mare the shots she needs during her pregnancy costs $500 so how can I sell a foal for that? I would rather stop breeding and keep what I have. Look for them in the show ring, at 4-H events, and not reproducing. Yes, we geld all the colts and will geld our stallion too, so the 4-Hers can use him for a project.

I really think that being "cute" is a liability, and not an asset, for miniature horses.


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## sfmini (Apr 7, 2013)

The problem is that those "breeders" would be thrilled with an exact replica of their pair because they think their horses are perfect, and hey, look at their darling little dwarf with the wild pinto markings! A world beater for sure, so tiny and colorful.


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## Carolyn R (Apr 7, 2013)

Sadly true and sadly not just the minis, but due to their compact size and ease of care ( or so one perceives) it is more common with minis in inexperienced hands. I see this with the gypsy vanners. Highs price tags, but people will buy what they can afford, then realize, hey wait, it has repro organs, I can offset my purchase price with a few breedings or a few foals. There are some ugly ducklings out there with shoddy conformation, and there is a huge span in price from high to low. Unfortunately, like the minis did over time, the high end will be pulled down by the low end and by individuals that can not tell quality from non quality. My GV is being gelded tomorrow, can't wait, vet wanted to wait till sping hope all is a go ahead in the morning.

As for minis, been there, done that, gelded the boys leaving, regardless of being nice quality, sorry if one does not agree. Some think that it is extra money a breeder needs to shell out and then it limits their potential client base. It comes with the territory, just another added expense responsible breeders accept ( unless of coarse you are grooming that excellent show colt into an exceptional stallion with the intent to breed or keep within the realm of breeders) but more often than not, geld, geld, geld..... I have to say their was a seemingly offensive thread quite a while ago, but it is a wake up call for newbies that do not realize the commitment it takes the heartache that follows. We all start somewhere, but it must be evaluated and researched seriously and not on a whim when it comes to breeding. The thread was Newbies Wake Up.


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## JaySTL (Apr 7, 2013)

I'm very inexperienced with horses, but may I ask why a gelding would make a better pet than a mare? Is the primary concern in regards to backyard breeding or are there temperament issues with mares that I need to be aware about? What are your opinions about shelters, rescues or older mares? I'm not ready for one and probably won't make a decision for at least a year, but the mare I like is a rescue and 15 years old. Would that kind of mini be appropriate for a newbie or is there something that I need to know about mares that makes them unsuitable?


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## targetsmom (Apr 7, 2013)

To answer the question about mares being useful, we are turning our former broodmares into 4-H projects and they are doing great. We turn out geldings and mares out together with no trouble and pretty much treat them the same - as in everyone has a job other than making more minis! Well, we did breed 2 for this year but then we will be DONE breeding, One of the pregnant mares was a 4-H project last year and did great with everything from showing at the 4-H Fair to working with our special needs member,. I happen to prefer mares to geldings, but that is a personal preference. Some mares can be moody and geldings are felt to be more uncomplicated (mood wise anyway).

ETA: Just like anything else, not ALL mares would be suitable for newbies or 4-Hers. I don't have experience with rescues, but if an any animal has been abused there could be issues that a newbie would find hard to deal with. Some rescues have been in fine homes and just need a new one. Like anything else, do you homework and know what it is you want.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 7, 2013)

To respond to JST about mares, we have several grandchildren that like to show, and believe me, we do 4-H plus the open rated shows. Geldings don't have the hormonal issues that a mare has when being shown by a child. We once had a mare that was open, ametuer and youth champion in the rated shows, plus 4-H, but, if she was in season, sometimes she would act up, if you know what I mean, in the ring when surrounded by stallions and geldings and it would embarress our young granson. Seems the judges would understand her position, but it would upset my grandson to no end, we breed her and sold her. It was a shame as she was was an awesome show mare, but we couldn't afford to have her sterilized as prices here on the east coast are outragious.


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## MountainWoman (Apr 7, 2013)

I love mares. My mares are so loving and fun to be around. Some people will tell you they can be moody during their seasons but I think it depends on the mare. Each horse is an individual whether it is a gelding or a mare or a stallion. If you have the opportunity to work with a rescue and you can go and visit the horses and see how you get along with each one and what the rescue people think of the horse you are interested in that would be a good way to start. I wouldn't let the fact the horse you like is a mare deter you at all if you are a match in other ways.


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## Rhondaalaska (Apr 7, 2013)

I have a mare now and I love her. Even as I was growing up I preferred mares. It is just my preference

I know others prefer geldings . I think it depends on the person and the horse.


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## Jean_B (Apr 7, 2013)

JaySTL - If you are as inexperienced as you say - a rescue is NOT something I would recommend because they USUALLY have needs that go way above and beyond the "norm" in terms of specialized nutrition, specialized farrier work, specialized dental work, specialized muscle and social rehabilitation...the task can be very daunting even for someone with as many years of experience as I have (well over 40 years of hands-on experience). I've taken on two rescues over the years (a yearling filly and a 4 year old stallion), and the amount of time, energy, knowledge and dedication required is HUGE, not to mention facilities, etc. They can have so many things go wrong that are not immediately apparent, and you really need to know what you are doing when things go sideways.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 8, 2013)

Jean_B said:


> JaySTL - If you are as inexperienced as you say - a rescue is NOT something I would recommend because they USUALLY have needs that go way above and beyond the "norm" in terms of specialized nutrition, specialized farrier work, specialized dental work, specialized muscle and social rehabilitation...the task can be very daunting even for someone with as many years of experience as I have (well over 40 years of hands-on experience). I've taken on two rescues over the years (a yearling filly and a 4 year old stallion), and the amount of time, energy, knowledge and dedication required is HUGE, not to mention facilities, etc. They can have so many things go wrong that are not immediately apparent, and you really need to know what you are doing when things go sideways.



I think that would depend on the rescue. Jay could buy a horse from someone and still get those problems and maybe even worse.... a genuine rescue will at least tell you what issues the horse may have, whereas a seller may just "wanna git rid of it" and Jay gets the horse home, finds it's been tranked, can't touch it, can't catch it, can't get ahold of the people he's/she's bought the horse from. We've ALL heard/had THOSE horror stories.

Bottom line- do your research before you buy/adopt!


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## Jill (Apr 8, 2013)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> Bottom line- do your research before you buy/adopt!


And really know that the purchase price or adoption fee is such a small fraction of what it will take to simply maintain your horse. I want all animals to have good homes, but when it comes down to what's going to work well for us... I don't want pre-set issues if they can be avoided. When "we" make horses every day, the issues really can be avoided (meaning there is so much to choose from). When superior quality can be bought for not too much right about now (and the past several years) and when that price is contrasted to what you just will spend in maintenance, I think people should first be educated about what it takes to own and keep a horse, and what to look for in a horse,, and then go and get what will make them happy -- a lot of times, their best bet will be a reputable breeder.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 8, 2013)

Jill just made a wonderful comment on buying from a reputable breeder! Problem that I'm seeing is that a lot of reputable breeders are now retireing or no longer breeding. There are still some great ones out there, but, most of their clients are already informed, educated people. I think the problem with a lot of new people is education! I do two or three breed promos a year and it really is not reaching enough people. We also show at the local 4-H shows to promote what a good miniature should look like, and we do real well up against the big horses. Just as Jean has said we are our own worst enemy as some people that want to get into minis for the first time, do so without an education, they look on Craigs list, or buy rescues because they want the biggest bang for their buck, then when there is aproblem like papers needing to be straighned out or conformation problems they are stuck. Some people buy a horse with their pocketbook and their heart. I feel that more education is the key to solving this problem and it is up to us.


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## BBH (Apr 10, 2013)

I got my first mini in '08 and had no idea what to do with her.....now have 3 and they all have a job. I do not show in the breed shows but have gotten into cde/pleasure driving and really enjoy it. We also do local programs at the library, parades and visits to nursing homes, rehabs etc trying to promote the breed. Coming from large horses there is a slight learning curve for the minis but they are horses and treated as such. When presenting to the public we can expect to come across the sincere person that wants to learn but it seems more often you come across the person that wants a pet mini for the kids to keep in the backyard and already knows it all......it does not take long to learn who they are and well being nice or not, I tend to just stay clear of them. The CL ads for minis just makes me want to save them all which is obviously not possible, but I do respond to some ads with questions and it is clear most of the folks have no idea when they think a breeding cert is a registration cert., how to measure, or will not respond if you inquire about stud being gelded or how much breeding he has done. Most breeds really promore geldings and minis are no exception.....geldings are great for just about anything......


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## JaySTL (Apr 10, 2013)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> I think that would depend on the rescue. Jay could buy a horse from someone and still get those problems and maybe even worse.... a genuine rescue will at least tell you what issues the horse may have, whereas a seller may just "wanna git rid of it" and Jay gets the horse home, finds it's been tranked, can't touch it, can't catch it, can't get ahold of the people he's/she's bought the horse from. We've ALL heard/had THOSE horror stories.
> 
> Bottom line- do your research before you buy/adopt!


The Humane Society of Missouri offers classes on horsemanship as well as volunteer opportunities. I was probably going to try to get there this weekend to see about volunteering and to figure out when their classes normally start. From my understanding, it sounds like I can work with an animal for weeks or months before adopting and it's somewhat common for volunteers to adopt the horse that they were taking care of.


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## Amoreminiatures (Apr 10, 2013)

Thank You Jean for this post, it is so very sad to see the amount of foals being born, the prices of the miniature horses, when I closely remember a day when you could not even begin to buy a registered miniature horse for no less then $2,500 now, it makes me sick to see the prices they are being offered for, breeders are quite honestly stating that their horse have very little value, when you REDUCE the market to $300 ..... VERY VERY SAD, how can you bring a mare through their pregancy and deliver the foal, raise it up, feed it properly, worm it, vaccinations, and hoof care teach it to lead and give it a solid foundation to grow upon for $300.................................... WOW, it is beyond me... I have NEVER been a BIG breeder only having 3-4 foals a year, if that, however all our foals move into wonderful homes and come equipped with VALUE, and a foundation...... Remember folks YOU set the value of YOUR Investment.... I have worked my fingers to the bone taking care of our beloved animals and I rather limit breeding then to be a mill for what..... and why...??..

Again great topic, remember the GOOD Ol' days when our horses were of value... and a HONOR to be able to purchase one...


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## MountainWoman (Apr 11, 2013)

Amore Miniatures, I think this is what happens with any popular animal. I just purchased two neutered KuneKune pigs but right now they are commanding very high prices and the breeders sell the breeding stock as soon as they are born and have waiting lists too. Some obviously are going to people who want to preserve and work with the breed and others are going to people who see dollar signs from a litter of piglets. Then, as more are born and they become more common, the price will drop. Happens with everything. The problem is we are speaking about living animals who deserve and require a life of care.

I can't imagine offering stud service for 100.00 nor can I imagine contacting anyone about a 100.00 stud. I think as the other thread started by Riverrose illustrates, we need to be taking our horses out and about and showing people they have more value than as breeding machines.


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## AngC (Apr 14, 2013)

So who decrees which one is the "reputable" breeder (vice just the person with an opinion?)


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## MountainWoman (Apr 14, 2013)

To me, it a reputable breeder is someone who has a reason for putting two horses together to make a baby. They can afford to care for the baby (give it shots, vet care, proper food, farrier, etc.) and they make a commitment to socialize the baby and work with it so it's a good equine citizen for the owners. Oh, and then there's the paperwork issue which should be in order and correct.

Who decrees who is a reputable breeder? I think we each decide for ourselves. Not all of us are looking for the same thing in a mini or the breeder.


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## targetsmom (Apr 14, 2013)

MountainWoman said:


> I think as the other thread started by Riverrose illustrates, we need to be taking our horses out and about and showing people they have more value than as breeding machines.


I think this is the real crux of the matter and why "we have met the enemy, and he is us" applies to breeding minis. Breeding minis seems to resemble a Ponzi scheme. Someone suckers someone else into giving them money (selling minis to breed), with the idea that they can get others to give THEM money in the same way, and everyone will get rich. But there is no thought given to an end product (a mini that can do something besides multiple itself). Those schemes (besides being illegal) are doomed to fail. I fell for it, although my goal was to "improve the breed".

And yes, Riverrose has the right idea about promoting minis and what they can do. I really don't think breeders or the registries are doing as good a job at this as they could. Just one example: I know there are a lot of baby boomers out there that enjoy riding and many of them (I know a whole bunch personally) ride dressage. There are probably many - like me - who when their current horse is too old to ride, or dies, don't want to give up horses but may think long and hard about taking on the risk of falling off a new horse. Some of these people would be prime candidates for minis! I just wrote an essay for a Dressage Today contest called "My light bulb dressage moment". Anyone who has ridden dressage should understand that wonderful moment when you finally get your horse connected and you feel the power under your seat and through your hands. Well, my light bulb dressage moment came when I realized I could get that same marvelous feeling when driving a 32" mini who was correctly on the bit and working off her hindquarters.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 14, 2013)

To the poster adking about a responsable breeder, it would be better for me to tell you of an non-responsable breeder. That is someone who buys a few mares, a couple of studs and throws them all together, for monatary gain. They have no idea about conformation, or pedigree, they are after money only. They don't keep up with paper work and don't even know the dates their mare were bred or when they are due. They leave the mares in with the stallions even if the mare shows signs of being in season then they abort because being bred again my cause the penis to hit the cervix causing an abortion. Foals are born in the field, mares are not monitored, so if a foal is born in the sack and can't can't out, oh well. Red bag, delivery what is that? They think dystocias only happen to other people, not them. The new buyer picks up a new foal, oh it's so cute, it doesn't walk in halter, the papers are not up to date, but the little babie is so cute! On the other hand we are our own worst enemy becuase of dishonest breeders. Case in point, you read an add, it states, AMHA registered horse, $6000. World reserve Champion, coming on three years old. The new person sees this, wow, buys the horse, and has it delivered sight unseen. It is indeed a beautiful horse and well worth the money, maybe. The seller hasn't been totally honest. The horse measures in at the the new owners first show at 35"s. What! The new owner has to hardship into AMHR and now has a horse they have fallen in love with, that is only recognized in one registry. Really I could go on and on, but yes we are our own worst enemy. Some are making money and some aren't and some are getting out. It doesn't pay sometimes to be honest.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 14, 2013)

Sorry, but I need to ad this: We need to educate the new people and the youth, they need to be informed, not preyed on. They are this industries future, we should not take advantage of for a few dollars. If you must then give a kid a good horse, for free! These people are our future!


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## fourluckyhorseshoes (Apr 14, 2013)

targetsmom said:


> I think this is the real crux of the matter and why "we have met the enemy, and he is us" applies to breeding minis. Breeding minis seems to resemble a Ponzi scheme. Someone suckers someone else into giving them money (selling minis to breed), with the idea that they can get others to give THEM money in the same way, and everyone will get rich. But there is no thought given to an end product (a mini that can do something besides multiple itself). Those schemes (besides being illegal) are doomed to fail. I fell for it, although my goal was to "improve the breed".


I have totally seen this, not just in minis but in many novelty livestock breeds and pets as well.


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## Pippin' (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm just kind of popping in because I've had some experience with the after affects of bad breeders. My little guy, Pippin, was sold to me because the breeder had lied to the owner about his age, height, registration, and a number of other things. The owner fell in love with him but he bought him for his grand kids but his grand kids wanted an older already drivable gelding that they could show AMHA\R so the gentleman finally sold him because the girls wanted noting to do with him. It turned out good for me because now I ave a loveable little boy who is well on his way to being cart trained and his hopefully heading to his first show (just to watch) net month.

Another example is my pinto gelding, Ace. While he's not a Mini he was still victim of a bad breeder. Ace's mother was purchased by a man because he had a "purtiful spotted stallion" (seriously what the add said) but this stallion was unhandled, unregistered, and really butt ugly. The guy bred the mare to his stallion and out comes Ace. The man apparently wanted a registerable buckskin paint (remember the sire is grade) and was extremely upset when his chestnut mare didn't produce a buckskin foal from his black pinto stallion. Anyways he sold Ace and his dam to a lady and told her he was going to register Ace with the APHA but when he didn't she sent Ace and his mom to a "rescue" (read hoarder) and one thing lead to another until we ended up with a sweet (though dumb as a door nail) grade pinto gelding who is the light of my life (next to Pip) though not with out his health and conformation faults.

I guess where I was trying to go with this is, yeah bad breeders shouldn't be breeding, but it's also up to the buyer to ask a million questions, request everything needed, and run for the hills if the red flags pop up.

Sorry if I jumped off topic I'm on a major caffeine high right now.


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## AngC (Apr 17, 2013)

Jean_B said:


> OK - off my soapbox. Fire away!


READY, FIRE AWAY... ok, here goes. (Since nobody has provided an intelligent comment on what constitutes a reputable breeder.)

What a condescending pile of poop.

It's not apparent from your signature whether you are a breeder Jean_B, but if you are, it's no wonder that your potential customers have headed off for Craigs List or wherever to get their parrot-mouthed horses. Your whole attitude treats potential customers as morons. Who on earth, in a depressed market, would want to buy from someone that oozes from their pores that their customer is an idiot? Really?


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## Jean_B (Apr 17, 2013)

I am hoping that NEW people who have never had exposure to miniatures (and many new miniature owners never had 'bigs' either) would take the time to learn BEFORE they buy, rather than scrambling to fix a mess AFTER buying. SO many requests for information here and elsewhere are from people who purchased a mini but now are totally stumped by certain behaviors, or because of condition that is going backwards, and I commend them for asking!!!!! Just wishing they had done their homework earlier, but at least they are asking! My post was intended to reach those who are THINKING about getting their first mini and to ask themselves..."Am I ready?"

Never had any trouble selling any of my foals, yearlings, bred mares, geldings (gelded the VAST majority of my colts before selling), breeding stallions, etc. in the 22 years I've been breeding minis (and was breeding quarter horses for 20 years before that) and never had to resort to CL. In fact, several of my horses are now overseas on several continents. And if I sold to a "newbie" I gave them explicit information/instructions on proper and timely care, along with recommendations on where to find good farriers in their area, connected them with equine dentists, etc. etc. etc.


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## Carolyn R (Apr 17, 2013)

It is tiresome hearing the same topics year after year, being graciously answered year after year, tons of great advice being given....year after year, pointers, worming schedules, vaccination schedules, info on dental care, handling advice hoof care...so we all know the info is out there. If someone wants to creep and explore past posts or google info on minis on the web, LB always pops up with oodles and oodles of helpful hints, even what to look for in a seller and what should be a red flag, how to match yourself up with a mini that will reach your expectations and your level of experience ( ex. Not a wise choice for someone with zero experience to get a rescue with multiple health and behavioral issues) this forum is full of caring members and people that have been at it for a long time. There isn't even a need to become a member to read or search past topics. However, inevitably, there are people that jump in feet first, meanwhile there head is in the clouds. While I applaud everyone that is trying to learn and continues to educate themselves, it is frustrating to hear the same topics....help I bought a mini off of CL cheap cheap cheap, owner was a nut, couldn't leave the neglected animal, now I am having issues getting registered. Have a mare that foaled dwarf, asked breeder for pics of previous foals, they all look dwarfy.....previous owner gave me papers but they are still in origonal owners name,....mare is AMHA, stallion was AMHR, how do I register the foal?!!!!......mare needs to be brought perm AMHA, she is 37" what division does she go in?!......
Dealing with a knowledgeable, responsible breeder that is guided by a moral compass is priceless, especially if someone is new to it all. As a breeder, it wears one down. It is no wonder why so many of the old timers have decided to scale way back or stop all together.


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## AngC (Apr 19, 2013)

I would like to apologize, please.

....Whenever anyone trots out the geld, geld, gelding topic, it yanks my chain.

I consider myself a newbie; in another 10-15 years, I might be less new. I focused on several comments in the original post and probably reacted.

We stumbled on ownership of mini horses. I had absolutely no plans to have any sort of horse. Then my husband ran across an auction ad and kept at me and kept at me. And I caved in. We bought unregistered horses. I tried to plan ahead; for example, I read here on the forum that some people haul their horses around in mini vans. We have a big truck and a little truck. I looked at our trucks and thought: well, I’d throw a pig or a cow back there but not a horse; so we bought a horse trailer. I kicked the fences, checked the barn and tried to make sure we had adequate housing. I lined up a vet and a farrier. I set up an allotment to a savings account in case of health issues, beyond the normal care. (Nicky’s eyeball injury wiped that out.)

The whole registered vs unregistered yanks my chain too. At least I’m not out in the pasture peering through their hair trying to figure out if my appaloosa has spots. My husband loves our baby so much he wants another one. Bet that one would have spots too.

As a dumb-butt newbie, there’s about ten million question I’d like to ask here, but most of the time I don’t want to take the flak. So I try to read and get ideas and learn.


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## Scooter (Apr 19, 2013)

Carolyn R said:


> It is tiresome hearing the same topics year after year, being graciously answered year after year, tons of great advice being given....year after year, pointers, worming schedules, vaccination schedules, info on dental care, handling advice hoof care...


I wonder if it would be possible to have a separate area within the Forum where newbies could safely ask questions and long-term members could avoid going to if they find these types of questions tiresome?
I think one of the most valuable things about this forum is interacting with experienced horsey people - it really helps to feel that you have other real live people involved in the rearing of your horses... Otherwise, why not just go to Amazon an buy a book?

However, for those who have become a bit burnt out providing this support, maybe my separate Forum idea might help...


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## Carolyn R (Apr 19, 2013)

No one minds answering questions, that is the purpose of this being an informative forum. It is not arrogance that many longtime breeders and owners are trying to portray, but rather frustration. Yes, some of the members are very blunt about the right and wrong way to go about ownership. There are one hundred different ways to get to a good end result with minis, but there also is a formula for disaster that we have seen end badly time and time again over the years. I think it is only fair to look at my entire statement, that the info is given year after year, it is well documented on the forum, if one chooses not to ask, all they must do is use the search engine to find the answers.

It is completely refreshing to see individuals seriously seek out info for several months prior to jumping into a purchase, or individuals that think long and hard before adding another mini. Too many rush out and acquire a mini as if they were choosing a goldfish to add to an aquarium. It is a long commitment that should be planned for...housing, care, health, life expectancy, correctly choosing the age of a mini to suit what expectations one has for it, the obligation should be taken seriously, and long term goals or objectives should be considered prior to bringing one home. These pearls of wisdom are what a good breeder or owner will try to uphold and share, but so many whimsical owners make a conscious choice to buy first and ask questions later.


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## Minimor (Apr 19, 2013)

I guess I dont see what can possibly be offensive or annoying about the geld, geld, geld topics? I wish that more people would open their eyes and see the value of gelding their colts, and I wish more people could see more value in their geldings! Geld, geld, geld is excellent advice for many, and not just the newbies. I have never believed in keeping everything a stallion, and I dont believe in selling one as a stallion if it isnt truly stallion qualityhere if its to be sold as a gelding it gets gelded before it leaves our possessionI have gelded many and a few of those I have gelded have been excellent quality, better than what a good many people keep and use as stallionsthis is particularly true of my ponies! I just gelded a nicely conformed two year old that is one of the most talented, athletic horses I have ever come acrossand that is in comparison to full size horses too, not just the little guys. Geldings make up over half the herd hereand I dont have a small herd, so that means there are a good many geldings on the place! So, it is difficult for me to see any problem with the topics on GELD, GELD, GELD!!


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## Jean_B (Apr 19, 2013)

AngC - not sure where you got the idea that my post was about needing to geld. It was intended to hopefully get those thinking of getting into minis to ask themselves if they were ready,and to become informed BEFORE buying. Regardless of how you read my post, DON'T stop asking questions!! The ONLY dumb question is the one in someone's head but they don't ask. THAT is dumb.

Scooter - I think a separate forum for the 'long-term members' would be counter-productive to the intent of having any type of forum at all. If there was one just for those who have been around a long time so that they could 'avoid' newbie's questions.....WHO would be answering those folks' questions? We already have the capability to choose which ones we choose to read and/or respond to. I think the reason so many are feeling burnt out is because in so many cases, someone comes on here asking a question....and after lots of give and take, responses from people who have been at this for a long time....and then responses from the person posting the question, it is readily apparent that the poster has NO intention of listening to any of the suggestions from those with lots of experience, that they were just looking for corroboration for their own idea and have no intention of listening to anything different...and then when they get called on it - they ask the Mods to remove their entire thread. Thankfully...for the sake of the horses...those people are few and far between and the VAST majority truly do want to ask and learn.


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## bevann (Apr 19, 2013)

I like the idea of having newbies ask questions and hopefully those of us with a bit more experience will have good answers. NO QUESTION IS A DUMB QUESTION!!if you don't know something please ask. I sold 2 nice little Mini mares to a family who wanted pets for their daughter.They did not want to breed.Child is home schooled and IMO in severe need of socialization.They bought another BUTT ugly colt from another breeder because daughter wanted a baby.Turned it out with the 2 mares-went out 1 morning a found a baby(I watch my pregnant mares&even slept in the stall with them&still lost foals) Now they have 2 colts but they have seperated them from mares because colts tried to mount daughter. Sometimes you just can't fix STUPID in spite of all the education and directions you give with the sale of Minis or any animal. The dad in this family is DEAD SET against cutting off any male parts.


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## BigDogs & LittleHorses (Apr 19, 2013)

It seems to me that what is needed here is a FAQ (Frequently Asked Questions) area. These are used to prevent topics continually popping up and going in circles like described above.

One of the questions presented obviously should be "Should I geld my colt/stallion?". The benefits of geldings and drawbacks of stallion ownership, and the overpopulation problem could be presented in a neutral non-judgemental way, but it should also be stated that one can responsibly own a stallion if that is what he or she wants.

"Should I breed my mare?" is another one that is needed. One of the veterinarians here has stated that it is the single most dangerous thing you can do with your mare. I think that is a sobering statement that needs to be emphasized.

Putting up fair answers with pros and cons that allow the owner to make the best decision for him or herself is the way to go. Treating the asker of the question like an intelligent person is a must.


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## Scooter (Apr 19, 2013)

Well, I for one have benefited greatly from the advice I've been given and although some of it was a bit "blunt" I still keep coming back for more - what doesn't kill you makes you stronger!

I bought a second mini because a very nice member here told me Scooter needed a playmate, I got the new mini (Simba) gelded yesterday because of all the geld, geld, geld advice, I will be gelding my first mini when he is ready... I've learnt and actioned so much great advice.

Yes, it's frustrating that people don't do their research first. However, for the sake of the wee horses, people need to be encouraged and strengthened here so that they learn quickly how to cope. Making people feel inadequate is the quickest way to ensure their horses end up in a shelter...


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## REO (Apr 19, 2013)

I think THIS main forum IS the place to ask questions. It's always been the best learning place. There is a SEARCH BOX where people can look up any topic they want before they jump in to ask their own questions (fresh ones please, instead of popping up years old threads)

AND there are tons of INFO pages here at LB if people want to find them.






AND a whole "best of" forum right here to be found.





I always used to ask for there to be easy to find links to the info pages etc. And a welcoming pinned topic on how to use the search box and find the other forums.

If ever there is an especially helpful info thread, ask one of the mods to move it to the "best of" forum to be saved there.

Debby always does her best to make LB the best place to be!


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## AngC (Apr 20, 2013)

I’ve been reading this thread and mulling over the responses. And really, really, tried to be honest with myself.

I’ve come to the conclusion that:
1.] I don’t much like blanket statements/proclamations.
2.] If your horse isn’t registered, it’s a piece of garbage (that’s my perception based on some of the opinions I read here.)
3.] I feel guilty because I allowed two unregistered horses to breed and even worse (apparently) I am awfully tempted to allow them to breed again.

The necessity of gelding stallions is an example of a blanket statement: To quote Jean B, _“a stallion has one thing on his brain when he reaches a certain age and it certainly isn't listening to someone who doesn't know what they are doing.” _I don’t know what I’m doing most of the time, but of our three, he’s the easiest to work with. For example, he taught me how to lunge and still does it better than I do. I’m always dropping something or getting all tangled up. So when someone says something to the effect that stallions are hard to handle, my knee-jerk reaction is that they ought to take a trot around the pasture with our Craigs List mare. And as I considered (and still do) the gelding issue, all it took was to read one post here about problems with gelding an older stallion. He’s separate but happy as a blind horse can be, I think.

I mentioned unregistered horses, because the original post seemed enthusiastic about reputable breeders, and I’m assuming one way to supposedly find a reputable breeder is to buy a registered horse. I was raised in an environment where looks didn’t matter; their aptitude and ability to perform the work at hand were what mattered. I realize times change, but I can’t quite wrap my brain around some of the (what seems to me) arbitrary criteria of what some people feel is attractive. I’m still reading about conformation and trying to learn. Our mare would probably flunk a whole bunch of those criteria; I’ve been trying to explain this to my husband. Granted my choice of terms is “off” since I tell him things like: “according to the horse forum she’s ugly” which generates a negative response from him. I don’t really believe it either, because when she throws her head back, cranks her tail up, and goes for a gallop around the pasture, she looks like a little Arabian. Not to mention, although she’s a bit difficult, whenever I’m doing anything outside she’s always the one waiting, watching. She’ll stand there for hours; God forbid you try to put a halter on her though.

Anyway, I still wonder how you figure out who is a “good” breeder. If you believe UC Davis, in the quarter horse world, Impressive sired about 2,200 foals and has 55,000 potentially HYPP progeny out there. I would imagine that some of them must have come from “good” breeders. Somehow, that makes it seem like my one Baby doesn't matter when compared to that track record.

We didn’t buy horses to try to earn money. We bought them for enjoyment, and although the return on our investment has included some heartache, overall we have been hugely rewarded.

By the way, I can well imagine that some folks get tired of dumb newbie questions. But I would like to thank you because I read the responses and think about them and buy books on Amazon and ask the vet, the farrier, the neighbor, the mailman, whoever, and then come to my own decision hope that I made the correct decision.


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## Debby - LB (Apr 20, 2013)

I don't mean to continue off topic here but I wanted to say I would hope this forums members never get so jaded as to not be willing to help new members. This Miniature Horse forum _is where the questions belong_ and I hope that when we get repeat questions that some of the older members who have answered them before will step in and answer again or at least point them in the right direction by adding links within these forums where they can find their answers. Remember we all were newbies at one time and when you come to a new forum and are excited to learn.. it's nice to be greeted with patience and not like it's too much trouble to say it again.

Like Robin pointed out we do have a "Best of" forum where we move the best frequently asked questions and we also have Information pages that are found in the navigation at the top of the page, or from the Lil Beginnings main page.

Anytime there is a really good informational topic/ thread that you feel should be put in the "Best of" forum please email a mod. with that request so we can review it.

I would Love in depth articles like suggested above! "Should I geld my colt/stallion?" and "Should I breed my mare?" to add to the LB info. pages.!!


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