# Hoof trim angles



## Riverdance (Apr 7, 2009)

I have tried to find this topic on this forum and can not find it anywhere.

I have been talking with my farrier who does not do driving show horses. We are trying to find out the correct trim and angles for a Single Pleasure Driving horse.

Anyone know?


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## ClickMini (Apr 7, 2009)

Well, you could add more overall length to the foot, but anything you do that changes the axis of the foot away from the angle of the pastern could hurt your horse's soft tissue.


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## Riverdance (Apr 7, 2009)

With my driving horses in the past, I have always taken off the heal and left a longer toe. According to a farrier around here, that is the correct way, but I remember reading (I thought on this forum quite a while ago), about correct angles.

There was talk about this one horse that did not show much motion, till his feet were cut at certain angles, and all of the sudden, he had quite a bit of motion.

I am taking out my Best Kept Secret daughter this year. She has tons of motion and I want to make sure she is able to use all she has.


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## Tenltraining (Apr 7, 2009)

We normally have our farrier measure the hoof angle. The majority of our driving horses are at a 55 degree angle in the front and a 52 in the rear. The right angle on your particular horse can make a huge difference. We have had a lot of success this way and getting the right angle is important. Some horses may be a bit off of this angle, or naturally a little steeper and you cant quite get exactly these numbers but close will help. We grow as much hoof on them as we can and keep the angles right in line too. We feed a good hoof supplement, HOoflex crumbles and they are great for growing the hoof out and also the coats are gorgeous. Wonderful product.

I would love to see a photo of your Best Kept Secret mare? Good Luck to you and your mare, Laura


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## MiLo Minis (Apr 7, 2009)

Unless you are willing to risk lameness, bowed tendons, potential joint trouble, founder or navicular I would stick with trimming your horses feet to match the angle of their pasterns. If she has good action she will still have good action with proper trimming and might not with incorrect angles.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Apr 7, 2009)

I do see a lot of Single Pleasure horses (and their larger counterparts the Saddlebreds and Park Arabs) shown with a very long toe and cut-back heel, but I have to admit this drives me nuts. Done within reason this is okay, but some of them are so extreme it's a wonder to me that the horse can walk around the paddock and I can't help but think about how much stress this puts on their legs and, in the case of a ridden horse, on their lower backs. I'm all about the longevity of a horse so it bothers me to see something like that done all year around. It's not so bad for a short show season, but all the time? Oy.

Minis have the additional complication that in order to avoid adding height with a longer toe they _really_ cut back the heel and break the pastern angle so the length is all pointing forwards instead of forward and down like a Saddlebred. I'm sure this makes for a high step, but mostly so the horse can slap that foot down flat without tripping on his toes.






I think I'd let the toe grow to a decent length and trim the foot with the heel a little lower but not out of line with the pastern angle, making sure it's still nice and round to absorb concussion. Ask if your farrier knows anyone who trims ridden Saddleseat horses- the trim would be the same except for being barefoot and not wanting to add a lot of height.

Good luck. You have some very nice-moving horses already, I doubt they'll need much help.





Leia


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## Reble (Apr 7, 2009)

Tenltraining said:


> We normally have our farrier measure the hoof angle. The majority of our driving horses are at a 55 degree angle in the front and a 52 in the rear. The right angle on your particular horse can make a huge difference. We have had a lot of success this way and getting the right angle is important. Some horses may be a bit off of this angle, or naturally a little steeper and you can quite get exactly these numbers but close will help. We grow as much hoof on them as we can and keep the angles right in line too. We feed a good hoof supplement, HOoflex crumbles and they are great for growing the hoof out and also the coats are gorgeous. Wonderful product.
> I would love to see a photo of your Best Kept Secret mare? Good Luck to you and your mare, Laura



Thanks for the angles, I knew it was approximate that? could not find the other topics on it either.

Our gaited Paso's had that (approx) angles.


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## HGFarm (Apr 7, 2009)

A hoof should always be trimmed in balance with the horse and their conformation. Adjusting that is asking for problems with tendons and other issues! There is only one way to correctly trim one, and that is balanced and at the angle that Mother Nature put it.

Every horse is different and you cannot use a 'gauge' to set a horse at, as one might be a 53 and one might be a 54, etc.... My X is a farrier for many many years, and never owned a gauge. He's able to eyeball the horse and knew what was correct and the angles right for each one. In fact, you can actually draw a line with your eye, when looking at the hooves to see what is right. He never had one go lame or have other problems due to bad trimming or shoeing. (and we used our own horses pretty hard on ranch work, showing and speed events too).

He had another person with a gauge one time check the hooves to see how close he was- they were perfect!


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## Minimor (Apr 7, 2009)

IMO the best way to trim is at the same angle as the pastern. Leaving a bit of extra length on the hoof (but still keeping the proper angle) will lend a bit of weight to the hoof & therefore should enhance the movement. This is along the same principles of how the Morgan park and pleasure horses are shod—keep the hoof angle correct for the horse’s pastern angle, but add length and weight to the hoof. Morgans of course have the added benefit of shoes, pads and weights—Minis have to go on hoof length alone.

If you cut the heel down and leave the toe long, you will get less knee action, and the horse will fling its feet out in front of it when it moves. Perhaps some people like that sort of action, but I think it looks quite dreadful. I knew a gal that trimmed her Morgans that way for one show one time—and her nice moving horses suddenly looked hideous in action. I don’t know if she realized it, or if enough people commented on it to her, but in any case by the next show she had trimmed the horses properly and had them moving correctly again.

Of course in Morgans we wanted the knee action—in Minis people seem to be happy with the fling-the-legs-out-in-front type of movement, and don’t care if there’s much knee action there or not.

Never mind the stress on joints and soft tissue, trimming the horse’s feet to leave the toes long puts tremendous stress on the hoof wall—it’s a very good way to cause “road founder”—as the hoof breaks over that long toe, the extra pressure on the toe will cause the wall to pull away from the sensitive tissue. You could end up with dished feet and a widened white line, or you could end up with a horse that is actually lame.


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## Fred (Apr 7, 2009)

Whatever is the most comfortable for that particular horse is how the horse should be trimmed. Each and every one is different and the horse should be trimmed how it stands. Not every animal has a perfect angle but if the horse is going good and it is the action you desire without putting stress on the joints and tendons that is how they should be trimmed. We breed for conformation and movement and it is reflected in how the animal sets up and how it moves. Linda


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## TomEHawk (Apr 7, 2009)

Linda is dead on. The horse should be trimmed at whatever angle makes the horses trot the way you'd like with still keeping the horse comfortable and doesn't mess up the conformation.


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## Royal Crescent (Apr 8, 2009)

How about the difference in trimming one who is in Country Pleasure. Would you use these same angles, or modify it? I have a 5 yr old country pleasure gelding who i think can move better than he is...he has his moments where I see it.



Then I have a 3 yr old gelding who is being broke to drive. I think he will be a single pleasure driving horse like him sire. He is a Best Kept secret grandson, btw, and has a lot of motion.



My farrier has not done specific show trims, so I would like more info to pass along. She trimmed too much toe off last trim so I need to work on growing it out again, lol.



Do you think that giving him gelatin to encourage the growth is a good idea? How much should I give him if so?



I don't think that he will be shown until June, or the beginning of July as his needs more time and is just going to be hitched this weekend for the first time.

Barb


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## MiLo Minis (Apr 8, 2009)

Royal Crescent said:


> How about the difference in trimming one who is in Country Pleasure. Would you use these same angles, or modify it? I have a 5 yr old country pleasure gelding who i think can move better than he is...he has his moments where I see it.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no such thing as the "correct" angle for all horses for any purpose. Each horse is an individual and each hoof on each horse is an individual. If your horse has particularly good angles in his overall conformation you will be closest to the "perfect" angles but the bottom line is the hoof angles need to match his conformation in order for the horse to be comfortable and exhibit his best action.

Unless he left too much heel at the same time he took too much toe there is no way you will have that toe back by June no matter what you feed your horse. If he left too much heel then you need to have him back ASAP to trim your horses feet properly and remove the excess heel. If you don't have him back he will continue to wear off the toe and it will never grow back, again, no matter what you feed the horse.


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## Cavallini Farms (Apr 8, 2009)

Wow, I am sorry I read this!



*climbing up on my soapbox*

As a former farrier, there is NO WAY I would risk my horses' legs for "better" action. NO WAY.

Every horse has their own angle, shape and size of hoof and should be trimmed accordingly and properly. Conforming every horse to one particular angle is not a good idea. Imagine if we (as humans) all had to conform to the same size shoes, ouch! Pain is never the answer, and bad angles, excessive toes, etc - those all cause pain. How easily could you move with longer toes? Would your hips and/or knees be in pain if you compensated for the long toes? Think about that.

Hooves are a vital part of your horse, take GOOD care of them.

Your horse moves how it moves, and should not be made to hurt or be uncomfortable to look "pretty".

*stepping down off of my soapbox now*


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## ClickMini (Apr 8, 2009)

Thank you Sandcastle, that is exactly what I was trying to say in my first post.



> I have a 5 yr old country pleasure gelding who i think can move better than he is...he has his moments where I see it.


That is a training issue, not a hoof trim issue. You need to develop your horse to start working off his hind end, driving up underneath and lightening the front end. This is a huge topic, and not appropriate for this thread. The good news is that if you see it at certain times, IT IS IN THERE!



So you can bring it out. It just takes time, conditioning, strength, time, time, time.


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## Cavallini Farms (Apr 8, 2009)

Whew, thought I might get flamed there....thanks

Cassandra


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## icspots (Apr 8, 2009)

No reason for you to get flamed Sandcastle, I've been watching this post just waiting for SOMEONE to say exactly what you did


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## MiLo Minis (Apr 8, 2009)

icspots said:


> No reason for you to get flamed Sandcastle, I've been watching this post just waiting for SOMEONE to say exactly what you did


You must not have read the whole post then because myself, Minimor, HGFarm and others ALL said the same thing.


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## Royal Crescent (Apr 8, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> There is no such thing as the "correct" angle for all horses for any purpose. Each horse is an individual and each hoof on each horse is an individual. If your horse has particularly good angles in his overall conformation you will be closest to the "perfect" angles but the bottom line is the hoof angles need to match his conformation in order for the horse to be comfortable and exhibit his best action.
> Unless he left too much heel at the same time he took too much toe there is no way you will have that toe back by June no matter what you feed your horse. If he left too much heel then you need to have him back ASAP to trim your horses feet properly and remove the excess heel. If you don't have him back he will continue to wear off the toe and it will never grow back, again, no matter what you feed the horse.


She did not take much off the heel, which I understand will be my correction first off. I know she was concerned about getting too close to the white line so she stopped. She is a good general farrier, but does not know the difference in show trims for minis. She was trying to do what she thought I wanted without being unsafe. She has otherwise been doing my minis for almost 3 yrs.. I will have her out as soon as possible, or if not her, I have another farrier to check with who is doing minis for Sue. Thanks for the feed back.

Barb


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## Tenltraining (Apr 8, 2009)

Riverdance,

too much toe length will at times make your horse move more with a flopping motion in the front or hit on the heels as they move. As mentioned on other posts each horse is different and you will just have to see what angles work best for your horse to trot like you want but also be comfortable of course. We see what works for each individual horse and go from there. There is not set angle for any performance but you can sometimes correct an angle to where the horse moves better as he is more comfortable with that angle.


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## Riverdance (Apr 8, 2009)

Thank you all for your help. I did get a call from a Miniature farrier specialist and they explained to me and also spoke to my farrier on how to trim for motion.

Yes it is based upon the angle of the pastern, but there are also angles and different toe and heal cuts for each discipline. My farrier got similar information from a show farrier in our area. I used to raise Morgans for the driving show ring for park harness and Open Pleasure classes. There are certain angles that are put on a horses hoof with a certain lenght of toe that will allow the horse to use all the motion that the horse was born with. A lot of it is based upon the conformation of the individual horse, but there are guidlines and angles that are used within a certain % that fit most horses.

I am not looking to hurt my horse in any way, but to have her feet done corectly to allow my horse to give the mothion that she was born with, without me or my farrier trimming her feet incorrectly and perhaps putting too much strain on her legs and feet.

Thank you all again!


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