# Age by teeth



## Camille (Jun 27, 2010)

I purchased a mare last year that I fell in love with at a local sale. She was sweet as could be with me but didn't seem to like anyone else. Anyways I am now having some doubts on the age that was told to me by the previous owner. I am trying to figure out her age by her teeth.

The picture I took is not the best as it is hard to hold lips open and the camera in one hand by myself. But I was wondering if anyone on here could take a wild guess at the age of this mare. I know her teeth look like a bad smokers teeth ... I am just trying to get an idea if she is the age I was told or much older.





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## Carolyn R (Jun 27, 2010)

There's more to it than just the side and front shots, like the enamel rings and shape of the sidewalls of the teeth (so to speak) here is a link with info on the matter.

equine tooth guide

A well versed equine dentist is the one to talk to. A look farther back would make it much easier to guess a timeframe on her age (paying close attention to her tusks or canines. I would venture to say tennish years old(there doesn't appear to be a notch in the upper corner of the teeth) but without more detailed photos of more of the mouth I can't say much else.


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## Sue_C. (Jun 27, 2010)

I agree, less than ten...perhaps seven? The top front teeth seem far too straight to be on an older horse; as they get older they tend to "tip" forward, both uppers and lowers.


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## Camille (Jun 27, 2010)

Here is the interesting part. I was told she was 13 last year when I purchased her. There was a foal back or I purchase deal made, although she never foaled. I recently obtained a copy of her supposed papers and it states she is this age, but I have no foal, she has not cycled (or not that I can tell) and I have a miniature stud next to her. she is not interested in him at all. There is also some questions on the papers (which is neither here no there) but I am questioning if the breeding problems were perhaps she was extremely old. But now you have made me wonder lol.. Now i am more confused. And looking at the pictures on the link you are right the angle of the teeth are more like a horse under 10 years. So back to square one lol...


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## ohmt (Jun 27, 2010)

Just took a class that taught this! She is NOT under ten. As horses age their teeth become more rectangular and there is a black line on their top teeth that is a great way to tell age. If it's all the way to the bottom I believe that means high teens? I took the class last semester, you'd think I could remember exacts! Anyway, she does look like an older mare. Can you get a picture of her teeth with her mouth open and also a picture of her teeth straight on?


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## mizbeth (Jun 28, 2010)

It appears to me your mare is in her teens. It is hard to tell with your photo as her bottom lip would need to be pulled back. Yes, other photos of her mouth could help us determine her age and the rings in her teeth would be worn. I had a mare near 20 years old and several Vets looked at her to determine her age. They stated she appeared to 8-9 years old. I knew the original owner of the mare so knew her exact age. I just wanted to see if they could tell the age of her






The "olde timers" horse people can usually tell though.


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## chandab (Jun 28, 2010)

As others have said, so many things contribute to whether or not you can tell much by the age; diet, previous dental care, living conditions (horses on sandy soil sometimes wear their teeth more), bad habits (cribbers).

I was going to guess the other day, but got sidetracked. My guess is 10-15 years old, as her central incisors are still pretty straight (not sloped forward), but perhaps a bit older as her corner incisors are rather sloped. I can't see much else in the picture. A good equine dentist might be able to tell more.


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## AnnaC (Jun 28, 2010)

Now I'm probably quite wrong here, and I do advise you to get a professionl opinion, but your picture really had me confused!

Her lower jaw does not seem to match her upper one. The lower one seems to be further back than the upper one and the teeth in general seem to be the long sloping ones of an older horse. The upper jaw seems to be a little further forward and the teeth appear to be straighter although they are longer than I would have expected from a younger horse. So altogether quite a strange picture of a horse's mouth in my opinion!

Please dont flame me but to my inexperienced eye it almost looks as though her upper front teeth have been filed along the lower half to bring them back to meet squarely with the bottom ones at sometime in her life - hence the small 'bump' halfway down her front teeth??? It would certainly help to get a picture of her mouth open with the 'tables' exposed and viewable.

As I said at the start, I'm probably quite wrong, and I advise getting profesional help.

Anna


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## mizbeth (Jun 28, 2010)

I agree, I believe she has had her front teeth floated too. If you follow her bottom line teeth as though the lip were not there, she appears older than 13, as the angle appears to be pretty severe. Again, hard to tell with these photos and a lot of factors can influence how the teeth appear, grow and wear.


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## Sue_C. (Jun 28, 2010)

> Please dont flame me but to my inexperienced eye it almost looks as though her upper front teeth have been filed along the lower half to bring them back to meet squarely with the bottom ones at sometime in her life


Back in the old days, that was commonly done by the more unsavoury horse-traders to fool unsuspecting buyers into buying old horses, at young horse prices. I think it was called "Bishoping".

Not saying this was done on this mare, just saying it isn't unheard of.

For some reason, those top teeth don't "match" the bottom, could be entirely natural, but it is different, for sure.


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## Camille (Jun 29, 2010)

AnnaC said:


> Now I'm probably quite wrong here, and I do advise you to get a professionl opinion, but your picture really had me confused!
> 
> Her lower jaw does not seem to match her upper one. The lower one seems to be further back than the upper one and the teeth in general seem to be the long sloping ones of an older horse. The upper jaw seems to be a little further forward and the teeth appear to be straighter although they are longer than I would have expected from a younger horse. So altogether quite a strange picture of a horse's mouth in my opinion!
> 
> ...





I sure am not going to flame anyone for an observation. I posted because I suspect the mare is much older then I was told she is. I guessed by looking at her teeth in the first place she was. Also due to I received a copy of her papers and I suspect papers had been falsified. I am not to happy about any of it, but it does not change I adore the mare. It is disappointing that I would be charged what I was and duped. But guess it is just as much my fault for wanting to trust someone. I know how some horse people are and should have figured they were the same with minis. 

I am trying to figure out her age as it might explain why I have not seen any heat cycles in her. I thought she was suppose to have been bred and in with a stallion on pasture for several months you would think she would have been but after several factors I am assuming she is old and possibly unable to breed or has other breeding issues and I was duped. But I appreciate the opinions given. Even if it is guesses. I don't have anyone that I can ask where I live so this forum has been great. Thank you all. I will try and get some better pictures, but it is difficult when I am by myself trying to get pictures of a horses mouth lol...


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## Sue_C. (Jun 29, 2010)

> I posted because I suspect the mare is much older then I was told she is. I guessed by looking at her teeth in the first place she was. Also due to I received a copy of her papers and I suspect papers had been falsified. I am not to happy about any of it, but it does not change I adore the mare. It is disappointing that I would be charged what I was and duped.


If you can prove that this is not the same mare as the papers say she is, and DNAing her will tell you, if she has been DNA'd, and pictures cannot lie either...I would certainly be AT THE VERY LEAST...reporting it to the registry involved. I would also take legal action against the seller and getting my $$ back...whether I liked the mare or not. This kind of dishonest behaviour shouldn't be rewarded...and if you do nothing, that is exactly what you will be doing.


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## AnnaC (Jun 29, 2010)

While I am so sorry if it turns out that you have been duped over this mare, I'm also pleased that you obviously adore her and are happy to allow her to live out the rest of her years with you - should she prove to be too old for breeding.

When exactly was she supposed to be running out with the stallion? Is it possible that she is in foal and that is why you are seeing no reaction to your stallion? As far as heat cycles go, I think this might be 'personal' to each mare - I have a 26 year old who cycles through the summer months and would happily present herself to any of my boys given half a chance (obviously a no-no)! But I also have a 19 year old that my stallion totally ignored last year, although I swear she 'appeared' to cycle a short season a couple of times, - so I feel that perhaps her 'fertile' days are over, and I have retired her.

Some mares will breed happily and successfully into their early 20's and some will not, but often the foals from 'elderly' mares are not so 'strong/healthy' as those from younger mares.

If your mare carries registration papers, would it be possible to look up her sire and check on the year he covered her dam - if you follow my thought? (all supposing that you have a listed sire and dam) Or do you have any way of contacting the owners of either her sire or dam - you might be able to gain a birth year for her this way? Just having random thoughts here LOL!!

This is an interesting topic - she's a lucky girl to have landed in your hands, especially if she proves to be one of those wonderful senior ladies - can you tell that I love my senior girls,



although I do realise that you would probably have preferred your girl to be younger than it now seems





Anna


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## Camille (Jun 29, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> If you can prove that this is not the same mare as the papers say she is, and DNAing her will tell you, if she has been DNA'd, and pictures cannot lie either...I would certainly be AT THE VERY LEAST...reporting it to the registry involved. I would also take legal action against the seller and getting my $ back...whether I liked the mare or not. This kind of dishonest behaviour shouldn't be rewarded...and if you do nothing, that is exactly what you will be doing.





The copy of the papers I received (copies because I had made a foal back or purchase agreement with the seller and she had not foaled as of yet) stated they were on parentage. I do not know much about miniature horse registration. The parents it says are dna tested. I am trying to give the seller the benefit of the doubt and waiting for her reply to my email and phone call on if there could have been an error when she registered the horse. I try t give everyone the benefit of the doubt. Mistakes do happen. I have registered goats and accidently put the tatoo for backwards on which ear they were in.

What I will do will depend on her. Right now I am in the early states of determining if I have been duped, only suspecting it right at the moment. I do not want to post her parentage or her pictures as I do not want to make accusations without proof.


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## Camille (Jun 29, 2010)

AnnaC said:


> While I am so sorry if it turns out that you have been duped over this mare, I'm also pleased that you obviously adore her and are happy to allow her to live out the rest of her years with you - should she prove to be too old for breeding.
> 
> When exactly was she supposed to be running out with the stallion? Is it possible that she is in foal and that is why you are seeing no reaction to your stallion? As far as heat cycles go, I think this might be 'personal' to each mare - I have a 26 year old who cycles through the summer months and would happily present herself to any of my boys given half a chance (obviously a no-no)! But I also have a 19 year old that my stallion totally ignored last year, although I swear she 'appeared' to cycle a short season a couple of times, - so I feel that perhaps her 'fertile' days are over, and I have retired her.
> 
> ...



She will have a home here as I feel it is not fair to animals to bounce them from place to place besides she and I went through lots of things together to get her to let me handle her the way I do and she talks to me every day. I tried to look up her sire but it seems the registry requires you be registered to use their service so I was unable to look up the info. I was hoping to track down something on her as I know with the goats i can find info on their dams and sires to give me an idea on things. But I don't want to post info as well for the reason mentioned above.

I really appreciate all the random thoughts. I would like if nothing else to figure out if she is an older mare and her approx age. I still adore her it doesn't change the animal, but I will by all means at minimal report this to the registry if it in fact turns out she is not who I purchased.


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## ohmt (Jun 29, 2010)

If you could wipe her teeth quick and take a picture of her teeth front the front and from the side I would love to take a look again. The line that goes down her top incisor will give a very good estimate of age. It's the best way to tell really. Hopefully it is just a mistake or misunderstanding, but that line will definitely help. Good for you for keeping her-every horse deserves a good retirement home


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## Camille (Jun 29, 2010)

ohmt said:


> If you could wipe her teeth quick and take a picture of her teeth front the front and from the side I would love to take a look again. The line that goes down her top incisor will give a very good estimate of age. It's the best way to tell really. Hopefully it is just a mistake or misunderstanding, but that line will definitely help. Good for you for keeping her-every horse deserves a good retirement home




Well I went to take pictures and the dang batteries went poof on my digital so as soon as they are recharged I will try to get some better pictures. I wiped off her teeth but they are pretty well stained so not sure in the pictures they will be much better but will see what I can get this afternoon to post. I truly hope it is a mistake as well as I really hate to make accusations about anyone. I like to think the best of everyone.


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## Camille (Jun 29, 2010)

Ok I did the best I could one handed. I had to hold camera and lips so it is not the easiest thing in the world. I wiped her teeth down but they are stained I couldn't get anymore off of them then what I did so it is no help on getting a better idea, but anyways one front and two one from each side.













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## ohmt (Jun 30, 2010)

She is in her mid teens...the line has not reached the bottom yet and according to its position her approximate age would be about 15. Now since it looks as though she has had some floating done on her incisors and not knowing other contributing factors to the condition of her teeth, i'd say her age is anywhere from 13-17. That is going by the class I just took and my book that I still have. I am by no means an expert on such matters, but I do know for sure she has not reached 20. That line would be at the bottom of her tooth and that is universal for ALL horses. Best of luck to you with your new girl!


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## Camille (Jun 30, 2010)

Thank you for your reply. It makes me feel a bit better to know she is probably the age I was told. I still can't figure out why I have not seen heat cycles although I have been told a horse can go over on foaling. I am new to horses for that part. I can tell you anything about just about any other animal but horses on having babies.

Edited to add I dont know if her teeth have been floated or not. They have not been since she has been here which in August is a year. But it is possible they had been done before i got her. Who knows. She certainly has no problems eatting as she is big as a house and gets very little hay, but still is fat.


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## AnnaC (Jun 30, 2010)

As I said before - I'm finding this topic very interesting, not least because of all the different suggestions that are coming from your pictures!

I think that the main reason we are having so much trouble with her age is that her corner incisors at the top are (IMO) most strange looking and dont match her other top teeth. Now I might need glasses, but I cannot see any dark mark/groove (Galvayne's Groove) running down the side of her incisors! But I do see what appears to be hooks coming/going on her lower corner teeth. Now these 'hooks' are formed at around 7, 14, and 21 years, which makes for interesting thoughts?

Today is going to be a tooth inspection day amongst my horses LOL!! I have every age here from 2 weeks (not going to bother inspecting his!) to 26 years, and several in their teens that I bred myself so know exactly how old they are! Will report later this evening!

I notice you say that your mare has been with you since last August - depending upon when in August she arrived, I would suggest that you be watching her very closely as she could be due to foal any minute






And I would also like to commend you on the way you are handling this 'matter'. I too like to see the best in people and would hate to upset anyone by seeming to doubt their word. Also just wondering how long the folk you got the mare from actually owned her - it is always possible that they genuinely thought the mare was 13 years old (should she now prove to be older)

See you all later today after my tooth inspection here





Anna


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## rabbitsfizz (Jun 30, 2010)

The side teeth, on which the Galvynes Groove would appear, and it is this line, not any down the front teeth, that is used to age the horse, is not evident as the horses teeth appear to be deformed, it also appears a couple may well be missing? But it is hard to tell form photos.

Anyway, it is definitely the Galvynes groove on the side teeth, that grows down the teeth, identifying age, and thus it is not possible to age this horse from the teeth shown. I am not brilliant on the dental enamel ageing thing, but if you can open her mouth and photograph the top or bottom teeth (middle ones) so that the actual flat part is evident, I shall give it a try.

From what I have seen I would say she quite possibly is 13, the teeth are too straight to indicate and older horse.

I doubt she is much older.


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## chandab (Jun 30, 2010)

rabbitsfizz said:


> The side teeth, on which the Galvynes Groove would appear, and it is this line, not any down the front teeth, that is used to age the horse, is not evident as the horses teeth appear to be deformed, it also appears a couple may well be missing? But it is hard to tell form photos.
> 
> From what I have seen I would say she quite possibly is 13, the teeth are too straight to indicate and older horse.
> 
> I doubt she is much older.


This is kind of what I was thinking, those corner incisors look deformed or damaged. I have a mare who's upper left corner incisor is damaged and it looks very very similar to this mare's corner incisors (my girl only has one that looks odd), she is 15 (I'd haven't looked at her teeth, lately, to notice how much slope they have).


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## rabbitsfizz (Jul 1, 2010)

It seems to be quite a common problem in Minis, I have not seen it in BH's, so it is possibly a "Mini thing".


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## AnnaC (Jul 1, 2010)

Have to admit that I was also wondering if this little mare could have had some sort of 'accident' at some time, as those side incisors or hers really dont match her other top teeth at all. But still one would have thought that some sign of a groove should have been visible??

Having checked over my lot here - ages from 10 to 26 - yep, there is the groove, in various stages of 'growth' from just starting at the top to all the way down and even beginning to 'smooth out' a bit at the top again, depending upon the ages of those concerned. But none of them had the clean, white looking incisors of this mare.

Would be interested to know what sort of damage can change those side incisors (both sides) to such a degree?

Anna


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## Camille (Jul 3, 2010)

AnnaC said:


> Have to admit that I was also wondering if this little mare could have had some sort of 'accident' at some time, as those side incisors or hers really dont match her other top teeth at all. But still one would have thought that some sign of a groove should have been visible??
> 
> Having checked over my lot here - ages from 10 to 26 - yep, there is the groove, in various stages of 'growth' from just starting at the top to all the way down and even beginning to 'smooth out' a bit at the top again, depending upon the ages of those concerned. But none of them had the clean, white looking incisors of this mare.
> 
> ...




I apologize for not posting sooner all and I had not forgotten the thread. I just have had way to much going on the last few days and me being by myself with critters makes it a job in itself. I have not had a chance to try and get pictures of the top and bottom of her teeth and until I have a second pair of hands not sure I am going to be able to. So I guess that leaves this thread till I can get a second pair of hands to help out.

AnnaC I do not know much about this little mares history only she had been purchased from elsewhere several years back and had not been handled much. She had been out on lease to someone else for the last two years before she had been put up for sale. So for all I know she could have been at I don't know how many homes.

I would like to know what would cause that kind of damage as well. I have done some reading on the net and found that nutritional deficiencies can cause deformed teeth as well. She was not nutritional deficient by any means when I got her she was round as a butterball. She tends to be an easy keeper but for getting food stuck in her cheek on occasion which I had read can be caused by deformed teeth as well.

So perhaps she was lacking something when she was young. Fat animals don't necessarily mean healthy animals as I am sure we all know. If they are missing something in their diet there can be other problems.

I did not think to look at her teeth when I purchased her as I had something pulling at my heart string to bring her home that her and I belonged together. I am not one bit sorry I did.

I think you ask or someone did about when in August she was delivered. I don't remember the exact date but the contract has August 1 so I assume it was then or right around then. According to the calculators I used she should foal by July 10th is she was in with the stud and bred on the date she was delivered so yes there is till time but she sure hasnt shown me any sign of getting ready. I am hoping but not holding my breath, but her not showing to my stud makes me wonder. Sooooo

I will again try to get some pictures of the top and bottom of her teeth.


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