# Need some pointers



## HorseMom (Dec 27, 2010)

After much consideration I have decided to find a horse that is better suited for what I want to do. I love Jay to death and he would do wonderfully at breed shows, but I much prefer CDEs. He just doesn't seem to enjoy those. There are many more reasons too.

What should I look for in a horse when I start shopping?


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## targetsmom (Dec 27, 2010)

I am not an expert in this at all (never having entered a CDE myself) but I am a student of the sport, as they say. A trainer told me that the most important thing to look for in a driving horse (for CDE) is TEMPERAMENT. If you know what it is about Jay that makes him unsuitable for CDE I would think you were one step ahead. In minis, I think size should also be considered, although clearly that is not an issue with horses.

Anyway, my advice would be to look for a horse that has already competed in CDEs. I sent you a PM.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 27, 2010)

There is an article I wrote on selecting a horse for driving on my website that you might want to read but a quick synopsis: While I agree that temperament is the first and foremost requirement you aren't necessarily looking for a calm, quiet deadhead for driving CDE's competitively. I look for a horse with a sensible, intelligent mind whose reaction is to stop and look rather than bolt, one that thinks for himself yet takes guidance willingly and listens. A horse that is eager to work is the most enjoyable. You want one that is well built with good bone and an athletic body. The rear end is most important physically as that is where the motor is - look for a horse with a good strongly built motor, all the right angles and well muscled. The most successful horses I have trained for CDE are soft and willing from the start rather than stiff and unyielding.


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## R Whiteman (Dec 27, 2010)

I would agree that temperment is the first thing to look for in a CDE horse, followed by physical and mental toughness, and good athletic conformation. That said, I will tell you that we did not seek out any of our CDE horses. Rather they were horses we had in the barn, or pasture and were already using as performance show horses, or breeding. That includes our stallion, who was best overall (beating the morgans, warmbloods, etc) winner in both training and prelim on several occasions. All have one thing in common. They are forward, happy driving horses who love to work. They are not always the easiest to train because many have an active mind and are quite opinionated, but they never quit...ever! They may not have the straightest of legs, or the prettiest head, or the most elegant neck, but they are sturdy and good to great movers and put everything they have into every drive, training, showing or otherwise. As to size, bigger is not always better, but that is a personal thing and the balance of the turnout and the needs of the driver and horse pair have to be the first consideration. We have competed behind everything from 30 to 38 and all have carried us successfully through the marathons of CDEs. My caveat here would be that the smaller horse has a more difficult time if things go wrong because his weight cannot counter the mass of carriage and driver should the turnout become unbalanced.

Good CDE horses are worth every penny you pay for them and a horse that has already proven himself in that arena (not won, mind you, but proven that he can do the job) certainly should be high on the list of horses to be considered. Have fun in your search and good luck.

Dorothy


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 27, 2010)

Total thumbs up and agreement with all that has been said. Especially this part by Dorothy:



R Whiteman said:


> All have one thing in common. They are forward, happy driving horses who love to work. *They are not always the easiest to train because many have an active mind and are quite opinionated, but they never quit...ever!* They may not have the straightest of legs, or the prettiest head, or the most elegant neck, but they are sturdy and good to great movers and put everything they have into every drive, training, showing or otherwise.


That is what Targetsmom's trainer meant by "temperament."




Almost any horse can complete a training level CDE, but to be a _good_ CDE horse they have to have the heart, the try, the willingness to work and the enjoyment of being out there with you. Now some of that can be trained, but the traits MiLo mentions (spook in place, boldness, etc.) are inborn tendencies.

Do make sure you get a well-built horse with a powerful, sound, well-tied-in hind end though. Please! I can tell you from experience they can have the best competitive temperment in the world and still break your heart if their body isn't built to hold up to the strain.



And in that case it breaks their heart too, which is perhaps the saddest thing of all.

Dorothy also has a good point saying that "proven" does not mean "winner" in CDE. So much of your final placing comes from the driver's skill, what happened on course to the other competitors and things outside of the horse's control that his quality has very little to do with his placing one or two times out! If he was a consistent performer and has the qualities you are looking for that's good enough. CDE is a tough sport to do well in. If you have a horse with the mind and basic physical capability to do solid dressage, the forwardness and balance to be consistently smooth in the hazards and the stamina and agility to still do well in cones after all of that, you've got a gem. Kody was one of the slowest on the field but consistently won at Preliminary level because he was a true three-phase horse, driven carefully with consideration to his limits and strengths, and he never, ever quit. A fantastic mover will do better in dressage, a speedy horse better in the obstacles, but a horse who can do all three is what you really want.







targetsmom said:


> In minis, I think size should also be considered, although clearly that is not an issue with horses.


Actually it is.



There's a lot of preference for having a pony at the top of the size division for the same reason a lot of people prefer a 36 or 37" mini to a 34" one for competing in the over division. If you compete with a small pony or small horse you have less horse hauling the same required weight load at the mandatory speed and that puts you at a competitive disadvantage against bigger equines. The minis actually have it a bit easier at the moment as our current marathon pace is conservative even for small minis and we have neither navigators nor a mandatory cart weight or width to meet so the smaller animals do just fine as long as they're nice movers.

Leia


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## Farina (Dec 27, 2010)

I would like to add that you have to work with your horse and not against it. We are driving CDE's nearly twice a month at A and M (I don't know the right term for it in Englisch). My best pony (he is partbred English Shetland and American Shetland) competed with me last year at the Moritzburger Fahrpony Championat the Bundeschampionate for ponies. He was at the beginning really difficut to drive. The first year competing he only drove walk without blinkers at home to calm him down. Two years later he knows his job and he loves competition. Now he knows when he can go slower...

I just want to say that if you are looking for a beginners pony then the first thing would be temperament. But if you want to drive more competitions at higher levels then the horses are sometimes more challenging to drive and to train.

I like them if they want to forward, forward, forward the first times they are on a cart. These ones have the mind to work. These ones you have mostly to calm down and to train a little. So some pairs I don't drive at home just at competition, I drive them in training as singles because they had to be trained different. So you should ask the driver of your selected horse how he trained it. I would also prefer a taller horse, I like mine nearly at 43-44". There are too much steps to make for a smaller horse and at M you have to drive 19 km at minimum 13 km/h. You also have to consider which class you want to drive or if you want to drive just for pleasure and compete for example twice a year at the beginners level.


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## HorseMom (Dec 27, 2010)

Thanks guys.

I want a taller mini just because I have noticed that the horses that I tend to like more are all B minis. So i figured that since I'm on the market I'll get a B size.

Jay has a great temperament for hunter,jumper and halter and is a real show stopper, but after three years of training he is still very unyielding and annoyed when hitched. The more I think about it the more I see that maybe driving isn't for him.

Thanks, Mary for sending me the PM.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 27, 2010)

While I agree with most of what Dorothy has said I take exception to this part:



R Whiteman said:


> They may not have the straightest of legs, or the prettiest head, or the most elegant neck,


As Leia said:



> Do make sure you get a well-built horse with a powerful, sound, well-tied-in hind end though. Please! I can tell you from experience they can have the best competitive temperment in the world and still break your heart if their body isn't built to hold up to the strain. And in that case it breaks their heart too, which is perhaps the saddest thing of all.


They most certainly don't need to have a pretty head but good legs and a good neck can mean all the difference between a horse that enjoys his job and one that doesn't, the pretty face is just icing.



It is one thing to choose to drive a horse you already own and take it to the level it is capable of but if you are going shopping for a horse with a specific goal in mind, such as competing at CDE, look for one that will be capable of competing without pain. Both Leia and I have experienced what it is like to have a partner you love and respect that is physically incapable of performing as well as their heart would like them to and it isn't fun or pleasureable for them or you. If their back end is not built to take the strain of competition they are going to be in pain. The neck is an often overlooked part of their anatomy. They use it to balance their body, their head and neck are 1/3 of their total weight. A good neck means better balance and more athleticism.

I would agree with a B Mini for combined driving not because the smaller ones aren't capable of doing the job but because I have most often been required to show small pony rather than Mini and the bigger Minis are more able to compete in that division with a navigator on board.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 27, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> The neck is an often overlooked part of their anatomy. They use it to balance their body, their head and neck are 1/3 of their total weight. A good neck means better balance and more athleticism.






I am a neck purist! You might not think so to look at Kody, but while his neckset is ridiculously low the neck itself is long, hooky, attaches well to high withers and his throatlatch is as clean as they come. He has a wonderful "hinge" there and can easily come on the bit without any restriction to his breathing even when he's severely overweight. He can't hold a high headset but as long as he's allowed to move long and low he'll come up nicely through the topline and elevate the root of his neck with beautiful flexion.





That's one reason driving with a tight check bothers me so much. It takes that beautiful balance out of their front end and holds them locked in an artificial frame so the rest of the body has to try and compensate in order to be able to pull well. You CAN achieve a correct frame with a check and sometimes, used skillfully, it can even aid a horse in understanding how to balance themselves. But usually IMO for most minis it would be far better to simply allow the horse to find their own balance and use that neck as God intended.

Yay, necks!

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 27, 2010)

Yes I think both Willie and Kody have everything going for them except those stifles.



Willie is very capable of a high head set but can no longer maintain it over long periods of time because getting his haunches under him is just too painful.


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## R Whiteman (Dec 27, 2010)

I hope you guys don't really think that I advocate the use of crooked legged, poorly conformed horses for the sport of CDE. What i was saying is that we have driven horses to top placings that have come out of our own pastures that had a conformation fault or two, (not multiple problems all in the same horse). I clearly would not choose a horse with a poor hind end, or an ugly head if I had that choice, but what i was trying to point out is that no horse is perfect and there are some things that you can overlook if they are not too serious, and still have a nice CDE partner if you remember to treat him with the respect he is due and he has the right "heart". Certainly do not go out and buy the cheapest, poorly conformed, weedy unsound horse you can find because it can all be overcome by heart. Not so. But the three phases of the CDE can go a long way to help strengthen the bodies and minds of athletically challenged horses. There are some folks who think if it can't compete in the halter ring, it has no use in any athletic endeavor. I know that is not what you all mean when you talk of legs, drive train and neck, but I also know by experience that you can compromise a little and still be quite successful.

Dorothy


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 27, 2010)

R Whiteman said:


> I hope you guys don't really think that I advocate the use of crooked legged, poorly conformed horses for the sport of CDE. Dorothy


Heck no! You wouldn't have gotten where you have if you thought like that!



Just wanted to point out that if you have already made the decision to SHOP for a NEW horse you might as well get the best you can for your buck!

Willie has his fair share of conformation faults but has also been very successful at driving. Some of his faults actually help him to be a better driving horse although not a great halter horse. Some of his faults have led him to a great deal of pain due to arthritis. Through careful handling and thorough conditioning he has had a relatively long career but is paying for it now. I bought him at auction as a scrawny, scraggly weanling colt covered in rain rot and full of worms. My first Mini. He was so tiny and cute and obviously needed someone to love and care for him. I only started driving him because every horse needs a job and what else could I do with him?



He turned out to be an awesome jumper, obstacle horse and phenomenol driving horse! Oh and did his fair share of winning at halter as well just because he has such presence!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 28, 2010)

Never, Dorothy. Every one of your horses is better built than Mr. Kody!



I've looked up to you ever since I started driving and continue to respect you as a consummate horsewoman.

Leia


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## R Whiteman (Dec 28, 2010)

oh



...Thanks


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