# Vet wrong about ultrasound



## kdbeshears (Feb 11, 2015)

Ok so the vet did an ultrasound on my mare yesterday........Said he did not see anything....I don't feel he was thorough enough... Has anyone had a vet be wrong about their mare being pregnant?


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## chandab (Feb 11, 2015)

Internal or external ultrasound? How big is your mare? And, how far along do you suspect she would be, if she is pregnant?

The few times I've had a mare ultrasounded, they were full-size mares and the vet was correct, they were pregnant.

I've only had one mini mare USd, the vet did external and she wasn't pregnant, and she wasn't.


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## weerunner (Feb 11, 2015)

My mare was ~48 days pregnant, vet did a external ultrasound and then did an internal ultrasound with a paddle. He said her bladder was very full so he couldn't be certain, but he was pretty sure she was not pregnant. She was pregnant. The weefoal test at day 120 confirmed this and baby was born last year. So I never bother with the vet anymore when it comes to confirming pregnancy, I just use the tests.


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## kdbeshears (Feb 11, 2015)

ok heres the story on Tilly.... she has been with a stallion since April 9th 2014 until November 24th 2014.....seen her breed May 15th and 16th and then on June 10, June 27th and on July 22...(which was a kinda half attempt cuz i dont really think she wanted him to) since the last breeding she has not came back into heat at all....Did 2 weefoal 38's both positive (around day 40) did a weefoal 120 on around day 180 to confirm...was negative......had her ultrasounded yesterday...internally vet said she was too full of poop to tell and then (didnt shave her and she is very hairy) did external with the probe he used for internal...said he didnt see anything...this took maybe 10 ti 15 minutes...to complete from the time he stepped out there till he was done...I just didnt feel like he was thorough enough...but maybe he was...i just dont know...she is pretty wide...and within the last week her teats have gotten longer...udder not different tho.....Just dont know what to believe anymore lol....he also took blood to run a test....


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## lkblazin (Feb 11, 2015)

See what the blood test comes back as. I say she is most likely pregnant or having a false. But I have been told by a vet that ultrasounds on minis are not always useful. I guess something about how much fluid they fill up with and something else. I just know I was never gonna do an ultrasound on my girls because I was told not to at one point several years back.

As for the teats being longer. My girls have all had changes in there udder and teats. Longer, swollen, edema. This is the first year I have bred them. 2 are maidens. The other 2 have had each one previous foal for several years ago. Since you have noticed a difference in her teats, I go with pregnant and false pregnancy. My oldest mare was just having a false pregnancy. I did not breed her. She just saw the stallion and her body decided that she must be pregnant. Hope this helps


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## Brody (Feb 11, 2015)

How big is your mare? Is she too small to palpate? The vets I have gone to (both in the past when I lived out west), and now here in PA prefer to do a rectal palpation on the minis once they are at least 5 months along. Every time they have checked mine, they have been completely accurate. So if your mare is big enough (and your vet's arm small enough), I would think the palpation would be a better option than an ultrasound at this point in her pregnancy. My mare's last breed date this year was July 21st, and my vet was able to palpate mid December and confirm pregnancy.


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## kdbeshears (Feb 11, 2015)

she is a shetland...a maiden...she is 3....


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## kdbeshears (Feb 11, 2015)

For anyone interested...i started a thread a few weeks ago...titled Introducing Chantilly Lace.....there are pics of her on there


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##  (Feb 12, 2015)

I had a great woman vet with small hands and arms, and she could US and tell me yay or hey, and if not pregnant would tell me when her follicle would be ready for me to re-breed. I loved her and she was never wrong. She used to give me US picks of my little ones! I really missed her when she moved away.

The "replacement" vet, although a great 'treatment' vet and great in emergencies couldn't US for love or money. Got 1 right and numerous ones wrong. Finally after so many mistakes, I just waited it out, watched for other signs and guessed right most times although I did get fooled by a couple of maidens!

We'll just go with positive and wait it out!!


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## kdbeshears (Feb 13, 2015)

Still waiting on blood test which should be available middle of the next week....Im feeling signs now are pointing to that she isnt bred after all.....Even tho i have prepared a foaling stall for her which is where she has been staying at nighttime...during the day she goes out in the pasture with the boys...Yesterday when she went into the pasture......My boy Denz (who was gelded on November 24, and who, if she is bred, is the daddy) tried to mount her, now mind you.....he hasnt tried that since she stopped coming into heat in July....sooooo maybe the fact that her teats are having changes and the fact that he tried to mount her means she is just coming into heat...She didnt tease him or anything...he just sniffed her and then tried to mount her...which she did not let him do by the way...and then he never tried again for the rest of the day....And thanks CastleRock Minis......Im still holding out a glimmer of hope that the blood test will be positive.....


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Feb 13, 2015)

My vet got the poo and wee out before doing my mare. No point saying "it's full I can't see". I'd say they didn't try very hard but the. Again at this point you should see it clearly.


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## Magic Marker Minis (Feb 13, 2015)

Some mares will let a stallion mount them while pregnant. We have a mare, that two years ago, was bred for a April baby. She acted like she had come back in in July(peeing and winking), so bred her again. She ended up having a foal off her first breeding.


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## paintponylvr (Feb 13, 2015)

US - I love them - when I had a vet that could and did do them. I still have some of the pics that I got in 1997 & 1998 of mares that were in foal by our Shetland stallion. Utilizing US we WATCHED as a mares "bad" uterus "ate" the fertilized embryo from our stallion (TB mare - Shetland stallion) - one time. We had pics as early as 30 days after last breeding date. This was with an internal US and she did do a mare as small as 36" in height. The vet herself didn't have the smallest hands/arms.

We slowed down/stopped doing some breeding and also went to larger ponies/horses for a time. We had also moved away from her vet practice and got a different vet.

The new vet wasn't as comfortable doing Shetlands and only had an external US. We DID do them - but it took a while and it required shaving lots of areas on the mares' bellies. On one - we checked again - and she did feel that that one had been pregnant and had recently lost the fetus (there was quite a bit of medical terminology - a good thing). The others were found to be pregnant (& produced foals) or not (& didn't), so she was accurate. Then her practice changed and she wasn't able to check for me - too time consuming no matter when I scheduled an appointment.

So, checked back w/ the original vet - and she no longer does palpation or US on pony mares under 12 hh - external OR internal.

Have just set up appointments for a new vet. Will find out what the procedure is for palpation and US - when we go back to breeding. I LOVE knowing ahead of time - even if my "herd" is ..."just ponies" (NOT)... We've moved and I'm actually looking forward to taking some equine courses on breeding & foaling. Just missed an all day course - but wasn't in a position to take that one.

I would find out if the vet you used was competent in doing US. That's really quick - but then these days vets have appointments set up before and after yours and they don't always have a lot of time. My vets have always removed manure from the rectal area - so that they could "see" what is actually going on. That also takes time. If your vet is competent in US - yes, it could be that fast - but not removing manure? Hmmm... Texas - see if you can search around and find out if there are others out there that would be "happier" to check your mare. You could see about hauling her to a school, too.

I always tried to be the last one on the list (when I could schedule that way) - especially for preg checks. I like to ask ??s, see pictures etc. I also always did more than one mare at a time. Even if they were all tied in a line on the fence (2 yrs in a row we checked 6 at a time - several times in one year - a lot for us but not for our vet) - it took time to untie and move them into position to US/palpate them and then return that one to the tie spot and get the next etc. I didn't always have help - and even when did ... s till time.


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## kdbeshears (Feb 14, 2015)

I totally agree that i dont feel the vet ( NOT my normal vet as he doesnt ultrasound or palpate horses) did not take the time or put forth the effort....But...with that being said...I hope hope hope the blood test comes back postive....But if it doesnt i guess thats that then right lol!!!! Even tho...i have read lots of post who say even the blood test are wrong at times......


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## drmatthewtaylor (Feb 26, 2015)

I was unable to find accuracy stats on ultrasounds, but in general it all comes down to the ability of the ultrasonographer. Unfoortunately no Veterinary school has enough mares on hand and none of them are pregnat which means new grads are left to learn it on their own at the owners expense.

Although I'm sure that's not what owners want to hear, I encourage them to be patient. Given time and chances everyone will improve.

To my knowledge I have missed 3 horses (1 was a mini) and 1 cow in my 20 year carreer. Not bad odds, but those 4 individuals were still pretty ticked. Imagine if your boss fired you for 4 errors in 20 years??

Dr. Matthew Taylor


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##  (Feb 26, 2015)

Thank you again for sharing your important information with us, Dr. Taylor. We really appreciate your input!


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## kdbeshears (Feb 28, 2015)

Thank you yall for all of your input on the subject of Miss Tilly.....Sooooo update....blood eostrone sulphate came back negative.....was a 3 he said....so i accepted it and even tho deep down i still felt she was i was willing to accept that in fact she was not bred....BUT.... 2 days ago....she began to roll and roll.....up and down....sweating.....for a total of 4-5 hours.....she was pooping and drinking fine...poop was moist so just watched her for colic...in case thats what this was....well her udder began to fill just a tiny bit....and her vulva is getting longer....so over the last few days we have just really been watching her close...yesterday her vulva was really longer and showing pink without even stretching it apart manually....it did tighten back up tho....she hasnt rolled anymore since the other day....but her shape has definately changed....SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO.....LOL....sounds and looks like she is getting ready to foal (and if she is.....she would be 319 days today from the first time we recorded her being heatish).....We have also looked up info on the estrone sulphate test (blood) and it says that the ES starts to decline rapidly when a mare is 2 weeks out from foaling....She had the blood test 2 weeks ago which would account for the low result...Why this vet (who isnt my normal vet) didnt know this is beyond me....I can see a vet missing a mare being in foal....I totally get that as it seems it is a very tricky thing the ultrasound...My prob with this particular vet is....he finished her exam internal and external in about 15 min or so...everything ive read and heard from peeps is that this just wasnt enough time to really be able to tell...so long story short....We still dont know lol whether she is....or whether she isnt.....if any one wants to watch with us...she is on kdbeshears.camstreams.com...We would love to have you watch with us...i will also post some pics of her udder and her vulva from yesterday.....


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## kdbeshears (Feb 28, 2015)




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## kdbeshears (Feb 28, 2015)

Im going to put any new info on Tilly on a new thread called "Update on Miss Tilly" iill be updated on that thread....Thank yall for taking the time to comment on this crazy mysterious situation lol.....


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## Bonny (Mar 2, 2015)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> I was unable to find accuracy stats on ultrasounds, but in general it all comes down to the ability of the ultrasonographer. Unfoortunately no Veterinary school has enough mares on hand and none of them are pregnat which means new grads are left to learn it on their own at the owners expense.
> 
> Although I'm sure that's not what owners want to hear, I encourage them to be patient. Given time and chances everyone will improve.
> 
> ...


Hi Dr Taylor, I have a question perhaps you can answer..... The wee foal 120 tests for estrone sulfate. The company advises not to use past 300 days as a false negative can occure due to drop in estrone sulfate as mare nears foaling. Ive read a few articles suggestion this drop can also cause false negatives in a blood estrone pregnancy test. My question is, how close to foaling? in a few days or a month? And would it drop so low as to appear negative, say a month out from foaling?


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## drmatthewtaylor (Mar 16, 2015)

Bonny said:


> Hi Dr Taylor, I have a question perhaps you can answer..... The wee foal 120 tests for estrone sulfate. The company advises not to use past 300 days as a false negative can occure due to drop in estrone sulfate as mare nears foaling. Ive read a few articles suggestion this drop can also cause false negatives in a blood estrone pregnancy test. My question is, how close to foaling? in a few days or a month? And would it drop so low as to appear negative, say a month out from foaling?


Estrogen levels drop at day 280.


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## Bonny (Mar 16, 2015)

Thank you so Much Dr Taylor, and would they drop to a non pregnant level?


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## drmatthewtaylor (Mar 17, 2015)

Bonny said:


> Thank you so Much Dr Taylor, and would they drop to a non pregnant level?


I have never run a Wee Foal and I do not know about it's range, sensitivity, or specificity.

In general estrone tests; whether they be blood, milk, or urine, are considered confirmatory tests for pregnancy rather than early detection. Ultrasound can diagnose pregnancy nearly 3 weeks earlier than any of these tests. Gestation in the mare averages 11 months, so getting mares pregnant early is important otherwise after a few years a mare will have to be left open because she foaled 'too late'. The cost of early ultrasounding would outweigh the failure to return to pregnancy and avoid that year off.

It could be economically feasible to use estrone tests later in pregnancy to confirm that the pregnancy was maintained. I would encourage owners to run those tests 3 times during pregnancy.

1) 30-40 days gestation to confirm the embryo held.

2) 2 weeks prior to the end of the breeding season, so any open mares could be recycled and bred for that year.

3) October , so any open mares could be placed under ligts for early breeding next year.

If this protocol is run then there should be no reason to run a nearly 300 day confirmatory test, as by that time pregnancy would be well established and foaling dates would be well estimated.

If I purchased a mare that was supposed to be in foal then I would ALWAYS have her palpated both before and after purchase to confirm pregnancy as I not only consider palpation/ultrasound to be more accurate, it also involves another layer of culpability that estrone tests simply do not.

Dr. Taylor


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##  (Mar 17, 2015)

Thank you again Dr. Taylor. That's exactly what my equine vet did for me. We U/S each mare 3 times during her pregnancy for all the reasons you gave! I had my most successful seasons following that regime. Thank you again!


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## Bonny (Mar 17, 2015)

Agreed Diane, Thank you so much Dr Taylor!


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