# Another whats the difference!



## Blackwater Farm (Mar 15, 2011)

Whats the difference between the CDE, the ADS and VSE? I have seen all three and maybe more I'm not sure!!! I know the CDE is Combined Driving Event that has a driven dressage portion, a cones portion and an obstacle portion right? It's like eventing but for driving. Is that only for pairs or 4 in hand? Can you do it single? I have no clue what the other two are but I have watched some videos on YouTube and it really looks like ALOT of fun and just the kind of thing I would really love!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

Hehe! You've got CDE exactly right. Combined Driving Events (and many other types of events) are sanctioned by the American Driving Society (the ADS) and have a division for Very Small Equines (VSE's), which is any horse under 99cm or about 39" at the withers. There are divisions for singles, pairs, tandems, and four-in-hands for VSE's, ponies and horses and the four-in-hand horses can qualify to compete at the World Equestrian Games or WEG like we had this last year in KY.






I've been out of the CDE world since the end of 2008 when my gelding Kody hurt himself after a stellar season but my colt Turbo will be old enough to compete in 2012 and I can't wait to get back into it! If Kody's sound enough I want to start driving them as a pair and/or tandem in competition as well.

Leia


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## Blackwater Farm (Mar 16, 2011)

Ahhhhh! Gotcha! I like that...Very Small Equines...thats cute. You think they could have come up with a more professional name or something.



How do you get into this kinda thing? It looks like a blast! I have read many a post on here about different members going to the different events and what not but once I started watching the videos and really seeing for myself what it was...um...sign me up!!!! If I were to want to compete with just a single horse, what hight in your opinnion is ideal? What qualities should I look for in a CDE horse? Is it expensive? It looks like the largest expense other than the horse itself would be the cart or vehicle I thinks it's called...what kind is good for a beginner? What are some good resources for info? I'm going to try not to question ya'll to death so I'll stop for now but I'm sure I will have more. Thanks!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

Oh Lord, here we go.



We got another one!!



(NOT complaining, mind you! Hehe.)



Blackwater Farm said:


> Ahhhhh! Gotcha! I like that...Very Small Equines...thats cute. You think they could have come up with a more professional name or something.


Well, they tried.



The divisions are literally Horse, Pony, Small Pony and VSE; they wanted to call it "miniature" but figured that limited it to horses when they wanted to include donkeys and mules as well as tiny ponies and other unregistered stock. We all thought it was crazy but now we're so used to it we pitched a fit when they tried to change it back to "minis" last year!







Blackwater Farm said:


> How do you get into this kinda thing? It looks like a blast!


The best thing to do is find an event near you using the American Driving Society website and go watch. The organizers are always grateful for volunteers and that's a wonderful way to learn about the sport from the inside before attempting it with your own horse. If you join a local ADS driving club you'll meet a bunch of folks who are involved, find mentors and instructors, and probably find out about lots of clinics in your area too.



Blackwater Farm said:


> If I were to want to compete with just a single horse, what height in your opinion is ideal?


Horses from 29" all the way to the height limit have been successful in this sport but usually a large A or B-sized mini is best. They simply have more power for completing the marathon course and pulling through any questionable footing. Mine are 33-34" and are going to be a bit underpowered once they have to haul a navigator (2nd person) as a multiple hitch.



Blackwater Farm said:


> What qualities should I look for in a CDE horse?


There have been some really good posts about this on this forum, try doing a search for "CDEs" (searches must have at least four letters) or "temperment." The short answer is good functional conformation, a good mind and a good work ethic.



Blackwater Farm said:


> Is it expensive? It looks like the largest expense other than the horse itself would be the cart or vehicle I thinks it's called...what kind is good for a beginner? What are some good resources for info?


I don't think it costs any more than I usually spend on an AMHR show. The cart and harness are the worst part but you can usually start off with the equipment you already own until you decide if the sport is right for you. Ask ShortHorseMom for a link to my article on choosing a cart for CDE and do a google search for "CDE for miniature horses." There's a couple websites out there devoted to it and they'll have lots of informational resources for you.

Leia (who is finally getting too tired to type long answers)


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## Blackwater Farm (Mar 16, 2011)

Well thank ya! I will for now leave you alone with the questions and do some of my own research. Plus I was watching "Hidalgo" on AMC and it's over so I think I will go to bed now...save the research for tomorrow! But be prepared!!!! I will be back...(insert devilish grin here).


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## RhineStone (Mar 16, 2011)

One correction...ADS doesn't "sanction" shows like other breed organizations, they _recognize_ them. It's just a small thing, but I have been corrected by the Executive Director for the same thing.

The nice thing about driving equipment is that once you have it (if you buy right in the first place) you will have it for a long time. It is an investment, and the cost of it goes down over the years, unlike other horse sports where you have to "upgrade" or "keep up with the Jones's" and the fads. Yes, a lot of drivers end up with a carriage "collection", but it isn't necessary to be competitive in VSE.

ADS also has other types of events besides CDEs. Especially out East, ADS Pleasure Shows are fairly popular, which are probably closer in style to breed shows, except there usually are more obstacle-type classes offered as well as judged arena classes. In some areas, ADS clubs are putting on new events, such as Continuous Drives, and Arena Driving Trials (like a small CDE). Go to the ADS website for more info. http://www.americandrivingsociety.org/ To find an ADS driving club, go to the Regions tab on the sidebar and find Your Region. Some Regional Directors have clubs listed on their page, but for some you may have to email that Director.

What I like about the term "VSE" is that it is truly a carriage driving acronym. I don't have "minis" in my barn, I have VSEs because they are all carriage horses!



They couldn't call it Very Small Ponies, because mini people call them _horses_, and they couldn't call them VSH because you can have a small Shetland _Pony_ that measures in that category. ADS already had a Small Pony and a Large Pony division, and sometimes Medium Pony depending on the show. Before VSE, we showed in Small Pony in pleasure shows. There is also a Horse and a Draft division, and then pleasure shows can divide divisions based on the experience level of the driver or horse, like Maiden Horse or Novice Driver, etc. This all depends on what divisions the show wants to offer. CDEs can offer Training, Preliminary, Intermediate, and Advanced divisions (all split by the size of the horse), and what level you go in is basically "self-chosen" based on the experience level of the horse _or_ driver.

Myrna


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## Al B (Mar 16, 2011)

Check out this article I wrote for the AMHA World magazine back last September. It will answer a lot of your questions.

AMHA World magazine article


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

Ask away! I didn't mean you shouldn't have inquired, just that I was literally too tired to answer them appropriately.



I'm coming off a couple of double shifts and the time change so I'm a bit loggy.







RhineStone said:


> One correction...ADS doesn't "sanction" shows like other breed organizations, they _recognize_ them. It's just a small thing, but I have been corrected by the Executive Director for the same thing.


Ah, I was basing that on a memory of the rulebook where I thought it would say in italics "At ADS-sanctioned events..." I must have misremembered!



RhineStone said:


> CDEs can offer Training, Preliminary, Intermediate, and Advanced divisions (all split by the size of the horse), and what level you go in is basically "self-chosen" based on the experience level of the horse _or_ driver.


Split by size of horse AND number of horses being driven, such as Single Horse, Pair horse, Single VSE, Pair VSE, etc. There are ribbons for each of those divisions and then overall ribbons for the level, i.e. Training Level, Prelim, etc.

The levels are self-chosen to an extent but there's a recommendation that you should not move up before you've successfully completed two(?) recognized Training Level events and a similar recommendation about Prelim before you move up to Intermediate for the first time. Once the driver knows what they're doing, yes, they can choose to start a new horse at a higher level if they feel it's appropriate.

Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

I love that article Al, although I still want to know what "driving conformation" is in a dressage test! ("The dressage test is judged on the horse's ability to perform proper movements while maintaining accuracy and driving conformation.")

A couple of quick corrections for the new folks:

-I believe Sect. A is "any pace" on a full course but maybe that's changed or is not true at Training Level.

-Training Level competitors _are_ allowed to go through the water, but they are not required to.

-What Lori Horner calls "Novice" is listed in the rules as Training Level. Some shows do offer a Novice division, but that is different from Training.

I love all the pictures of my fellow NW competitors in that article. Go Carol, Dorothy and Tammy!



And of course Al and his wife Susan rock.

Leia


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## targetsmom (Mar 16, 2011)

I am still something of a rank beginner in the world of CDEs or what I prefer to term "carriage driving" because I may never do an actual CDE. That is one of the best things about this "sport" as there is something for everyone. I prefer the Pleasure Driving shows and especially the ones that offer dressage tests, which not all do. I might get brave enough to try a beginner CDE that my driving club (CT Valley Driving Club) offers at a level, grassy state part in CT. Or I might do a HDT (horse driving trial -smaller version of CDE) or an ADT (arena driving trial).

In some areas of the country you can get started with almost any cart, but here you can't use your "bike tires" in most events. Always best to check on that before entry. I still have oodles of rules to learn but that is part of the fun and there are always people to help you. And I have to admit, as a former dressage rider, I enjoy hanging around with "big horse" people and showing them what a 32" mini can do.

As far as what to look for - good conformation is important but so is a cool, calm temperament. You don't need flashy movement, but I prefer a long stride (good over-reach) and a fairly slow tempo. Every clinic I go to the clinician is always working with the other minis to slow down their tempo. Many people like the larger minis (VSEs!) but some of us just go with what we already have!

My wooden wheeled cart was about the same price as my Graber show cart (with rubber tires). I can also add wooden wheels to the Graber.

I highly recommend that you join an ADS driving club in your area. If it is anything like around here, almost all the new members own VSEs and the clinics have a large proportion of VSEs too. GREAT way to learn. I have a clinic with Larry Poulin on April 10 and I am so excited!

ETA:If you go to our website (link below) there are photos in the gallery from our one and only carriage driving event. We are doing a lot wrong, so don't use that as a gold standard, but we still had a ball and even WON one class.


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## Al B (Mar 16, 2011)

Thank you for your corrections Leia. I wish I had your knowledge.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2011)

Al B said:


> Thank you for your corrections Leia. I wish I had your knowledge.


After being out of the sport for two years, my "knowledge" is starting to resemble "fuzzy recollection."



Time to go read the rulebook again! It was a really nice article.





Leia


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## Al B (Mar 16, 2011)

The rules have changed a bit. I took the dressage thing right out of a text somewhere but I can't find it now. The pace in A is "any pace". Training can go thru water.

That article was written over 6 months ago and its purpose was not to be the definitive text on CDE's but to help convince AMHA to join the ADS Breed Partnership program.

I now need to write an article for The Whip about ADS horses in AMHA breed competitions.


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## Blackwater Farm (Mar 17, 2011)

Ya'll are so awesome.



What kind of crazy sorted mini life I would be leading without you, I'd hate to imagine!!!


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