# Good creed(ance)



## Carriage (Apr 29, 2012)

Sums it up for me.

"Cranky"

THE RON PAUL SUPPORTERS CREED

Here is your deal:

Pay attention Republican Party and Voters.

I am a Ron Paul supporter. This election season, no candidate will

get my vote for the Office of President of the United States of America

except for Ron Paul.There will be no exceptions. If he does not win the

nomination, I will write his name on the ballot.

No amount of slick talking, flip-flopping, wooing, cajoling,

threatening, or condescending will persuade me to vote for any other

contender for that office.

You don't want to admit it, but you know that the Republican Party

cannot beat Obama without me, a Ron Paul supporter. It's long past time

you admit it.

You and I have conflicting goals. I will only cast a vote for

liberty, for peace, for small government, for fiscal sanity and respect

for the Constitution of the United States and adherence to the oath of

office of the Presidency. You however are content merely to vote for

whatever Republican the GOP leadership and the media approve of.

I will not move. I cannot be persuaded. You cannot win without me.

I am not here to convince you that Ron Paul's positions are superior.

I am not here to convince you that his foreign policy is in line with

traditional conservatism. I am not here to convince you that his

understanding of economics put everyone else in Washington to shame. I

am not even here to convince you that the positions of the other

candidates are not materially different than Obama.

No, I don't need to do any of that. I only need to tell you that

without me, you have lost. If you do not vote for Ron Paul in your

Primary or Caucus, you are already defeated. If you fail to nominate Ron

Paul to be the Republican candidate for President, Barack Hussein Obama

will serve a second term.

This is not blackmail.This is not a threat. This is a simple statement of fact.

I stand firm and I will not accept anything less.Ron Paul 2012


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## Jill (Apr 29, 2012)

At the risk of seeming overly observant, I'm starting to think you might be fond of Ron Paul.


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## Carriage (Apr 29, 2012)

Jill said:


> At the risk of seeming overly observant, I'm starting to think you might be fond of Ron Paul.


Just a smidgen LOL. However my fondness is more importantly linked to the stand. I'll take anybody with the same views. If you were runnin and held the same no compromise stands, I would stand solidly with you.

C'mon in, the water's fine.....






Bb


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## ozymandias (Apr 29, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Perhaps Romney will use Ron P as his VP choice


I don't know how he could. They'd be arguing over every single item that passed in front of them. Of all the candidates these two couldn't be more apart.


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## bevann (Apr 29, 2012)

I'm just often amazed at politics.In the primaries, each candidate is constantly bashing the other and can't say even 1 nice thing about their opponent..When it's all over they are a--hole buddies.I guess I've become very cynical.There is so much corruption in our government that is is very difficult for the honest newcomers in government to stay honest.Our

state of DE is so small and everyone knows everyone else fairly well.When I was growing up my parents had parties in our home and the governor was often there.We have lots of the good ole boy stuff going on here.We just got a new head of Dept of Transportation from out of state.Boy is he digging up past dirt and corruption even on our former female governor.Millions of dollars in pay offs, bad land deals for developers etc.The biggest employer in our state is the State of Delaware.A standing joke around here What is orange and sleeps 4? answer A state highway truck.If fyou want to get a job and don't want to work real hard get a job with DE DOT.But in most cases you have to have a relative already working there-no qualifications just know somebody.


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## Carriage (Apr 29, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> I don't know how he could. They'd be arguing over every single item that passed in front of them. Of all the candidates these two couldn't be more apart.


Yes Ozy, Full agreement.

However, and this is the sweetest "however", with the clearing of the deck so's to speak, this truth you speak of will become GLARINGLY apparent to voters. Won't be as easy to bury it for sure. I have been waiting for this moment to happen. A Liberty guy against a slavery guy.....

Again the true danger in "splitting the vote" is to have two alike(s) vs two that are dramatically different. Stack Liberty up against socialism/totalitarianism, with true freedom of message and it would not be close as to outcome.

Bb


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## Carriage (Apr 29, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I will no longer be voting for elections in the U.S. (so I no longer have a horse in this race).. but I think Romney has always been the chosen one on the Repub side.. I believe it was set up from day one.. Perhaps Romney will use Ron P as his VP choice


Yes Mary Lou,

It has been set-up from day one (well actually before that). That has been nearly my entire point all along.

Nothing happens by accident. It is all very carefully planned and choreographed. "They" have stated so themselves. This IS one instance where I DO believe them....... And that don't happen often....





Bb


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## Jill (Apr 29, 2012)

I'd love to see Marco Rubio on the ticket


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## ozymandias (Apr 29, 2012)

Just for you Cranky


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## Jill (Apr 29, 2012)

Mary Lou, I think we may have different understandings when it comes to Rubio's stance and the consequences on both ends of the issue. I follow Perry's reasoning as well on the issue because I looked beyond the headline. Illegal immigration is a problem, with no easy answers. Rubio is a very inspirational person and I think he could bring a lot to the ticket. I've thought so for a couple of years now. There are no perfect candidates, but there's a long, long list of reasons to feel good about a man like Marco Rubio. One of my favorite Republicans





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KEdyViVg1i4

_"And yet, there are still people in American politics who, for some reason, cling to this belief that America is better off adopting the economic policies of nations whose people immigrate here from there."_ -- Marco Rubio


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## Carriage (Apr 30, 2012)

Jill said:


> I'd love to see Marco Rubio on the ticket


With all politeness, Rubio does not share the same pure Constitutional stand. I was done compromising on this stand a long time ago When I took my oath. Compromise and Liberty are "oil and water"


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## Carriage (Apr 30, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Just for you Cranky


Very good Ozy! Please note that the picture shows some what the true order of things. From top to bottom in hierarchy the order is,

The ruler/master is the international banking houses sequestered in "The City" in London

(As an aside, this is one of two sovereign nations that very few are even aware of being sovereign nations. The other is the Vatican.)

Next are the mid level managers directly tied to the aforementioned banking houses. These would be the large international, monopolistic Corporations. These implement the marching orders and shape direction as the Banking houses dictate.

Last are the low level managers. These are the central bank controlled countries and their supposed "leadership". THIS is why it does not matter which sham and divisional "party" is elected. The direction remains the same under either party The only change is speed and window dressing NOT the direction.

Notice the eyes on we the people as depicted in this pic. Here it depicts us as the "USA". While mostly correct, We the People are also the Government.

It also reminds me of a Christian themed t shirt of years ago depicting a gigantic herd of lemmings charging head long off of a cliff. EXCEPT for one very polite lemming heading away from the cliff all the while saying "pardon me, excuse me"......

The question is which lemming will you choose to be, eh?

Bb


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## Carriage (Apr 30, 2012)

"Illegal immigration is a problem, with no easy answers."

Yes it is a problem However there are easy answers. I refer you to RP for the simple answers.

"There are no perfect candidates,"

Comparatively, yes there is.


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## barnbum (Apr 30, 2012)

I'm a Republican. But, I do not think I can cast a vote for Romney. He gives me the creeps. Something about that man I do not like.


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## Carriage (Apr 30, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I find hard to understand while many people scream that U.S. is broke, get rid of the entitlements, the affordable healthcare, the affordable higher education and so on for its citizens.. BUT want to give it free to Illegal immigrants with no path to U.S. citizenship


Yes one opf many disconnects however not all of us want it......


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## Carriage (Apr 30, 2012)

barnbum said:


> I'm a Republican. But, I do not think I can cast a vote for Romney. He gives me the creeps. Something about that man I do not like.


Miss KArla,

I would please ask you to listen to your instincts. They ARE correct. There is much more to Robme than meets the eye.


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## Carriage (Apr 30, 2012)

Jill said:


> I'd love to see Marco Rubio on the ticket


Dang, I'm slipping. I missed the obvious. He isn't running and has publicly stated he was not interested in the veep slot. So if he suddenly chooses an about face on the issue, he looses credibility. Some would even call him a liar. Personally, I've had quite enough of that.....

No your choices are the two. Continued and worsening slavery or Liberty and its resulting Freedom. I simply can't fathom how this could be a difficult choice.....


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## ozymandias (Apr 30, 2012)

Carriage said:


> It also reminds me of a Christian themed t shirt of years ago depicting a gigantic herd of lemmings charging head long off of a cliff. EXCEPT for one very polite lemming heading away from the cliff all the while saying "pardon me, excuse me"......
> 
> The question is which lemming will you choose to be, eh?


I remember that too. All the christian lemmings blindly fell off the cliff and the athiest lemming happily walked away. I think it's on a tee shirt too


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## ozymandias (Apr 30, 2012)

barnbum said:


> I'm a Republican. But, I do not think I can cast a vote for Romney. He gives me the creeps. Something about that man I do not like.


I'm with you big time. Guess his magic nickers aren't casting any magic in my direction


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## ozymandias (Apr 30, 2012)

Carriage said:


> No your choices are the two. Continued and worsening slavery or Liberty and its resulting Freedom. I simply can't fathom how this could be a difficult choice.....


Fear, of letting go is what makes it difficult for many.


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## Jill (Apr 30, 2012)

Cranky, I'm happy I don't share your perspective. I'm going to be happy to cast my right wing vote in November. Ron Paul is clearly not a viable option and as an American, an employer, and business owner -- there's no way I'd vote for obama and no chance I would waste my vote on any third ticket run.


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## Jill (Apr 30, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Fear, of letting go is what makes it difficult for many.


Miniwhinny, does that include letting go of options that are not viable? Ron Paul...

And at the risk of being flamed, you've got a long track record under your prior name of ridiculing those who have religious faith. It seems you work it into so many differernt discussions in an antagonistic way.

I think faith is more often than not a personal asset, not a reflection of weakness.


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## ozymandias (May 1, 2012)

At least life is easy for those of us on the West coast. Ballots are being sent out this week and we only have two choices left to vote for! Now that shouldn't be hard should it lol!

Oregon is pretty much split politically down the line that splits it geographically. West of the Cascade's is very democratic/liberal. East of the mountain range is pretty much Republican. Unfortunately our large areas of population are all on the West side - Eugene, Salem and the greater Portland area.


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## Carriage (May 1, 2012)

Jill said:


> Cranky, I'm happy I don't share your perspective. I'm going to be happy to cast my right wing vote in November. Ron Paul is clearly not a viable option and as an American, an employer, and business owner -- there's no way I'd vote for obama and no chance I would waste my vote on any third ticket run.


Oh, I'm back to cranky. Bummer. Personally I don't see how you could be "happy" with the state of affairs at all. What could possibly be wrong with my perspective? I am a true remnant Christian, I am an American, I am fairly well studied, I swore and abide by an oath I took to uphold and defend our Constitution against all enemies both foreign and domestic. I refuse to do the wrong thing. My "perspective" emanates from this core. You do NOT share this perspective? Hmmm this might be the problem. (warning Yoda impersonation ahead) The dark side force strong with this one be.....

Well, I have certainly provided ample proof for my points so lets just cut to the core. Its really just this simple. When folk make the claim that they disagree with Ron Paul and especially with venom dripping from their words (This is a VERY important "tell" people), I merely ask them "what part of the Constitution do YOU disagree with?" This logical question elicits NO logical answer and all the aforementioned attack and avoidance behaviors are modeled. Engagement with reason is requested but rarely provided.

Would you be willing to tell me why R.P. is not a viable option, please? While I understand that one of the sticking issue's is foreign policy, nobody provides specificity about that sticking point or really any of the others that they might have.

You should probably know, well at least if you have been paying attention, that I already, most likely, know your answers,

Did you ever notice,.... That when the neocon mouthpieces and paid parrot-change-agents get vociferous and passionate about maintaining and leading us further into slavery as they do everyday on the "public" air-waves, they are WORSHIPED and parroted and "ditto"ed from here to election day. And then AFTER election day, the neocon-caster must spend a majority off their time doing damage control in support the liar they just helped get elected and justifying all those broken promises?....

Whereas the polite but insistent voice for Liberty and Freedom is reviled and called "cranky" by those who refuse to come out of their self imposed tunnel and into the light? OMGoodness, I think I just channeled Andy Rooney..... Sure miss that guy.


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## Jill (May 1, 2012)

Crank, just calling you as you've taking to calling yourself. You're Cranky, miniwhinny morphed into another name, and is now calling herself Ozy. I'm sticking with Jill.

You have provided ample proof to me that you fully feel what you say. I sincerely do not feel RP is a viable option, and while I like much about him him, I do not see him through your eyes.

I am not at all happy with the political situation now, but I look forward to seeing Romney as our president. I think he will do a good job.


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## Carriage (May 1, 2012)

Jill said:


> Miniwhinny, does that include letting go of options that are not viable? Ron Paul...
> 
> And at the risk of being flamed, you've got a long track record under your prior name of ridiculing those who have religious faith. It seems you work it into so many differernt discussions in an antagonistic way.
> 
> I think faith is more often than not a personal asset, not a reflection of weakness.


I'll respond to this, if I may Mini,

I think that I have made it abundantly clear that I am first and foremost a person of "religious faith" what ever that is, according to you..... So has R.P. However, unlike the Christian "right" we have no right to jam this "religious faith" down anybodies throat! God does not need your help in killing the "heathen". Rather we are called to model, (and in my case as far away from mirrors as possible.....




If he calls who he will (and he does), this simplifies the marching orders. And there is only one standing order. Love.

Will Mini and I agree on everything? Nope. (wouldn't you have to say this about everybody you know?) BUT and this is the CRITICAL but,

We CAN and MUST agree to Love one another. And so I shall and without reservation. And that kiddo's brings about Unity leading to Liberty and Justice for ALL.


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## ozymandias (May 1, 2012)

I'm with you there Carriage


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## Jill (May 1, 2012)

Cranky, I'm confused as to why you'd be responding to what I said about miniwhinny's history because I am specifically speaking about her posts (as miniwhinny) over the past four or five years. I am not a member of the "religious right". I'm a person who has faith but no affiliation with organized religion. I think it's a true reflection of character when someone repeatedly ridicules another over their faith. Since I see that having flared up again in this thread, I felt like speaking up.


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## Carriage (May 1, 2012)

Jill said:


> Crank, just calling you as you've taking to calling yourself. "
> Not true. YOU called me cranky. I accepted the attack and adopted the name happily.
> 
> "You're Cranky, "
> ...


"
Ok lets try this from a different angle, WHY do you look forward to him "becoming" President"

Why do you "think" that he will do a good job? What is it that you can point to historically that would cause you to think he would "do a good job"

Warning, Logic is roaming to and fro seeking those he may devour....


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## Carriage (May 1, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> I'm with you there Carriage


Yep I knew you would be. You have ALREADY modeled that.





Let's agree on something else, to have a GREAT day!


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## Jill (May 1, 2012)

Cranky, I did call you cranky (and you were) and since then, you've embraced and adopted the handle as your own.

Some reasons I like Romney: I think Romney did very well in the debates and I agreed with much of what he said, I think he can defeat Obama, and I really like that he's a successful business man.

Whether or not that partial list is good enough for you isn't any more up to me than it is of concern to me. I think Romney will be the GOP nominee. I will vote the GOP ticket. This is because the Republican Party matches my feelings about important matters (the economy, National security, personal responsibility) much more closely than the Democratic Party does. Plain and simple.

You may have made some brilliant points in your epic long LB posts, but you're not on my list of the political talking heads. I just don't have the desire to fully explore your own long justifications of your own point of view (your "logic"?). Many others enjoy doing so, and it's never bad news when people think about politics.

And, I have to say this from you:

Jill:
_miniwhinny morphed into another name, and is now calling herself Ozy. I'm sticking with Jill._
 
Cranky:
_Ah yes this goes to the heart of the problem_
Is pretty darn funny



So sorry if me being me, me and really_ just _me is a problem for you but it's a lot easier than hiding behind changing screen names or playing someone else on the internet. I'm pretty darn consistently myself -- like it or not. It's gotten me to a good spot so far.


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## ozymandias (May 1, 2012)

Carriage said:


> Yep I knew you would be. You have ALREADY modeled that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Got that covered too Bro


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## Carriage (May 1, 2012)

Jill said:


> Cranky, I'm confused as to why you'd be responding to what I said about miniwhinny's history because I am specifically speaking about her posts (as miniwhinny) over the past four or five years. I am not a member of the "religious right". I'm a person who has faith but no affiliation with organized religion. I think it's a true reflection of character when someone repeatedly ridicules another over their faith. Since I see that having flared up again in this thread, I felt like speaking up.


I understand your confusion.... Yet, I believe that Ozy is fully aware of my stand and it being far more defined (actually my very core) than "a person of faith" and yet I've had no such attack. Now bein a student and all, I gotta think that there is a reason fer that.

Building walls is not "attractive" I am called to be "attractive". That is best done with Love. Trust me, thats ALL I gots goin for me.... If I don't show the Love of Christ in all that I do, how am I any different than the world. Just as I don't want my Liberty infringed, neither will I infringe on Ozy's or anybody Else's by insisting that things be done only my way.

Rather, and this is an admitted weakness but ALSO in the finest of our founding traditions, I will at ALL times defend those whose Liberty is being taken from them and wake them to their plight. For you see the men who stood FAST at the bridge so long ago were Pastors and their congregants. And here is the best thing about that. They did not even share the same belief and were from different orthodoxies! Yet they ALL came together, stood fast and died TOGETHER to defeat the tyrant. The SAME tyrant we face today.

ONLY love can do that. I don't like bullies and I don't like tyrants. Seems like I have always had to stay my hand and mouth from my first instinct when dealing with them. I have chosen to stand fast on TRUTH that IS logical and CLEARLY defined. I embrace anybody who chooses same.


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## Carriage (May 1, 2012)

Jill said:


> Cranky, I did call you cranky (and you were) and since then, you've embraced and adopted the handle as your own.
> Oiy already rather than again engage in the 5 yr old circular logic argument, we'll just set your untruth aside.
> 
> Some reasons I like Romney:
> ...


Yes but hopefully what has shined throughout this "epic" is the shunning of "politics" in favor of embracing Liberty.

Thanks for your time everybody,


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## Jill (May 1, 2012)

Carriage said:


> I've been reading tea-leaves for a long time now. My read on you thus far has been correct.


Well, maybe I should be flattered that you found me interesting enough to read and follow


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## Carriage (May 1, 2012)

Jill said:


> Well, maybe I should be flattered that you found me interesting enough to read and follow


Again, it wasn't for for really about you. The interest was clinical and served a very good purpose.


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## Jill (May 1, 2012)

Carriage said:


> Again, it wasn't for for really about you. The interest was clinical and served a very good purpose.


Your readings about_ me _were really not about me... Okay, you get an A+ in double talk / Politics 101


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## tagalong (May 2, 2012)

I dunno, Carriage. I don't see a massive conspiracy here as much as a massive, convoluted attempt to create one. I have always doubted that RP had any chance to win - it is far "safer" fpr the GOP to stick to the usual approach and not try anything new.

And RP is just another politician. They all lie their asses off at times. Or at the very least, forget to check their "facts".


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## Jill (May 2, 2012)

Well, I can't believe it. I actually agree with Tag on something that is not horse related





And, *pout* the LB autobot let her say a**es. It never lets me fully express certain emotions. Maybe it only likes cursing in the plural from


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## tagalong (May 2, 2012)

"Asses" is _cursing?_ Not that I have ever known or seen... huh.

If I said "lie their butts/bottoms/rear ends/buttocks off" it just does not have the same "ring" to it...


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## Jill (May 2, 2012)

Yep, i agree.


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## REO (May 2, 2012)

*patooties* Sounds like a sneeze!


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## tagalong (May 2, 2012)

How about ... _derrieres?? _Too French? Too classy?


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## ozymandias (May 2, 2012)

Gluteus maximus


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## SampleMM (May 2, 2012)

I NEVER post on these political threads but I really do enjoy reading them. Mitt is my man because if Obama stays in office our small businesses are doomed. We will have to lay off several workers which in turn will affect the small towns and even some of the bigger cities where we have our publications.

Those of you who hide behind "fake" names and switch your handle..........I could care less what you think so no response is needed! Thank you!!


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## andi (May 2, 2012)

I am trying to understand how the government is responsible for a small businesses success or failure? Is the issue that Obama is too involved, too many restrictions on small business'? The only restrictions that I can think of off the top of my head would be health care requirements, if the government was forcing small bussiness' to cover these. Is this something new that is happening? What for example has been changed that has caused a hardship. When I look online for this information I read that gas prices have a larger effect on small business. Is that the issue? I also read that in general, during a poor economy, small businesses are the hardest hit. They have less of a "cushion" to ride the wave out, so they are forced to fold. But gas prices and a poor economy affect everyone; it is not something that the government is "using against" any one group, even if one group is more affected by it than others. Much like the voter id debate, just because minorities are harder hit by this restriction, that doesn't necessarily mean that they are a "target".


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

SampleMM said:


> I NEVER post on these political threads but I really do enjoy reading them. Mitt is my man because if Obama stays in office our small businesses are doomed...


I very much agree, Debbie.

The current Administration is anti busines, in historic proportions. During the 2008 elections, I couldn't fathom how any business owner would support Obama. Now that he's had 3 plus years do many other things I feared he would, being smart enough to put 2 and 2 together even without his hot mic slip up, i seriously will look into the logistics of outsourcing the administrative duties of my office if hes re-elected. I love my employees and treat them well, but at the end of the day, I'm in business to stay in business. The business exists to serve my clients and to provide for my and my family's income. Despite the smokescreen of class warfare, business owners get up and go to work everyday for the same reasons employees do, and we've got a lot more at stake and on our shoulders with lifetime investments of capital, personal risk, and heart.

If anyone is in the dark as to how things that happen in Washington effect a business, just do some research. Shoot, or come out from under a rock and watch the news. Those things are easier than keeping the doors open and meeting a payroll.


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## ozymandias (May 3, 2012)

Taxes James - plain and simple. Small businesses are being taxed out of existence.For America's small businesses to succeed we need a reduction in business taxes. If you're faced with paying your taxes or paying for a new employee...there's only one of those options that you have no choice over.


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Taxes James - plain and simple. Small businesses are being taxed out of existence.For America's small businesses to succeed we need a reduction in business taxes. If you're faced with paying your taxes or paying for a new employee...there's only one of those options that you have no choice over.


Miniwhinny, taxes are a factor (the US has the highest corporate taxation out there) but it's not just taxes. Among other things, it's also the looming threat of Obamacare (which includes a requirement of insurance for ADULT children of employees), ever increasing regulation, and a sincerely antagonistic stance when it comes to businesses and their owners.


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## MountainWoman (May 3, 2012)

Go Ron!!!


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## ozymandias (May 3, 2012)

SampleMM said:


> Mitt is my man because if Obama stays in office our small businesses are doomed.


I don't think there's any other viable option than Mitt



For as many wonderful, principled ideas that RP stands for, let's face it - he's not getting the nomination. Whether people think it's because of some large media consipracy or whether it's as simple as people asking who has the better chance of beating Obama, it's looking pretty obvious that Mitt's the guy to try


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## MountainWoman (May 3, 2012)

I know RP won't get nomination. Haven't decided how I'm voting but I'm not voting for MR. No one I know is voting for him either but then again I live in Vermont. I guess I don't understand why everyone thinks MR will beat Obama. Still too early to really have accurate polling because so much can change over the months but I I think Obama will beat MR in the end. Depends on who runs third party as well. Politics is going to be a heated subject this year and I don't like fighting so that's my last words on the topic but everyone has the right to vote their conscience no matter who their candidate might be and even if they write him/her in.


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## ozymandias (May 3, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> I know RP won't get nomination. Haven't decided how I'm voting but I'm not voting for MR. No one I know is voting for him either but then again I live in Vermont. I guess I don't understand why everyone thinks MR will beat Obama. Still too early to really have accurate polling because so much can change over the months but I I think Obama will beat MR in the end. Depends on who runs third party as well. Politics is going to be a heated subject this year and I don't like fighting so that's my last words on the topic but everyone has the right to vote their conscience no matter who their candidate might be and even if they write him/her in.


I'm 100% with you. I'm really struggling with having to cast a vote that's not for someone but against someone else. I look at MR and his political track record, his stance on issues, his beliefs and cringe and the thought of placing a vote for him. I'm still not convinced I could do it. It would certainly be a anti Obama vote not a pro Romney.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

Jill, to respond to me asking for examples with, "If anyone is in the dark as to how things that happen in Washington affect a business, just do some research. Shoot, or come out from under a rock and watch the news", is not an educated constructive answer and offers NO help. I think many people on this forum looked to you as an expert on finances and assume you have done the research to form your opinions. If your opinions are formed on facts, numbers, and research, then why is it so difficult for you to share them? I find, if someone is going off with a passionate opinion but can’t easily explain the logical steps that formed it, then those steps were probably never taken, or at the very least, not fully understood or “fleshed out”. As I mentioned before, I HAVE been reading like a mad man and trying to research. Right now I have exactly 23 windows open on my desktop about the topic. This is what I have actually found the bulk of these articles state.

~ About 75% of them just say that the economy is poor and the small businesses are the most effected by that. Therefore, whoever doesn’t "fix" the economy is against small businesses. Just because it is a tough thing to fix, and therefore is not fixed yet, doesn't mean that you support it being broken or that you are causing it to break. The argument makes no sense.

~ Some of the articles explain how Large corporations pay less taxes per employee, therefore Small Businesses are taxed heavier than Large ones. Now this is interesting, that could explain a government that is "helping" large business and against Small Businesses. But I have not been able find when this was started, is this due to the current administration? Also is the difference in taxes because the taxes were increased for small businesses or because a "tax break" was offered to big business, to stimulate the economy? Charts and numbers are great, but without all the information they can be twisted whichever way you want them to be.

~ Some of the articles were actually supporting O for his helping Small Businesses, with actual examples of the 17 Tax cuts he has started for Small Businesses.

Finally the only actual tax increases, that can be accredited to Obama, that could affect businesses, is his wanting to STOP the Bush Tax Breaks on the top two percent, which does include 1.9% of Small Business Owners. This number really opened up my eyes. I started wondering, Small business owners are in the top two percent? Actually, I found, if you have under 500 employees you are considered a "small business", I am starting to think Mitt might have helped with this definition. For me, I have been concerned about the Small business owners people like myself, Mary Lou, Debbie, Jill and the guy down the road selling produce. I never thought that this sympathy we are all being convinced to have is actually for the guy who owns 10 McDonalds.

Anyways, that went on longer than I expected. My point is; where are the examples of what Obama has done against Small businesses?? From what I have read, if anything, the problem is he hasn't stopped what past Administrations have done to increase taxes on the Small Business owner.


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## Riverrose28 (May 3, 2012)

I too would like to hear some real answers. Mr. Romney was in Va. yesterday and when asked what he would do to help the econemy he answered, " The opposite of what Obama is doing". Sorry but, he might as well have said Whatever! What kind of answer is that? Also I tried to copy an article on RP for Carriage to read, my stupid computer wouldn't let me, but to make a long story short, it stated that he may win Iowa, and several other states. Also a question, in what year were the business taxes last raised?


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

James, I am not getting into any discussions with you and as you've been told, I am not reading through your posts. This is based on repeated past experience. It is so sincerely not worth the effort or frustration. If you want to think Obama is good for business, that tells me quite a bit about your own business.


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> I too would like to hear some real answers. Mr. Romney was in Va. yesterday and when asked what he would do to help the econemy he answered, " The opposite of what Obama is doing". Sorry but, he might as well have said Whatever! What kind of answer is that? Also I tried to copy an article on RP for Carriage to read, my stupid computer wouldn't let me, but to make a long story short, it stated that he may win Iowa, and several other states. Also a question, in what year were the business taxes last raised?


If you are really interested and did not watch the debates, you might watch footage from the debates. Additionally, his website, http://www.mittromney.com/, provides a lot of information about him on the issues. Click the logo at the top, and then you will enter the site and can read up. You do not have to sign up for email updates to access the site. Note that you can click on the "logo-y" topics for greatly expanded information regarding things like Taxes, Spending, Energy, etc. The logo-y words give some simplistic overview, but you click for the expanded details.


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## ozymandias (May 3, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> I too would like to hear some real answers. Mr. Romney was in Va. yesterday and when asked what he would do to help the econemy he answered, " The opposite of what Obama is doing". Sorry but, he might as well have said Whatever! What kind of answer is that?


Riverrose, this is THE perfect example of how I view MR. In our Oregon voters pamphlet there was quite a lengthy discussion from RP on what he'd do as president, almost as lengthy from Gingrich (even though he later dropped out) but Romney's was little more than a fluffy full of nothing paragraph. I really don't know if he has any true direction and the above statement just about sums it all up.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

Jill what has actually happened, over and over, is you DO TALK TO ME. You are usually one of the first to reply to my statements, but LATER decide to ignore me when you have no answer. I beg you, if you are truly not going to talk to me, then please, just do it. This talking to me, just enough to tell me I am wrong, but not enough to tell me why, is quite honestly, cowardly, and quite frankly, a load of crap. 

Just in case this is misconstrued, this is not me "melting down". This is me exuberantly overjoyed at how "telling" your behavior is!


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## Riverrose28 (May 3, 2012)

Thank you for the link, but I have dial up here in the boonies and it took forever just for the cover page to load. I did watch some of the debates and IMO the only one answering questions with solutions was Caine, even though I didn't agree with them at least he didn't beat around the bush with his answers. I haven't watched any in the last few months, too busy.


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

James, don't confuse me reminding you of the situation with a discussion. You called out to me on the prior page, and I reminded you -- again -- what the status between us is and will be. Maybe you can't get enough of me, but I've had more than enough of you, your name calling meltdowns, your ranting and your baiting.



Riverrose28 said:


> Thank you for the link, but I have dial up here in the boonies and it took forever just for the cover page to load. I did watch some of the debates and IMO the only one answering questions with solutions was Caine, even though I didn't agree with them at least he didn't beat around the bush with his answers. I haven't watched any in the last few months, too busy.


Cain was my early favorite, in a very big way.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

Jill, my first post was very clearly replying to Debbie, but asked questions to anyone reading the topic and interested in replying. 

I asked this question, 

"I am trying to understand how the government is responsible for a small businesses success or failure? Is the issue that Obama is too involved, too many restrictions on small business?" 

You were the next person to post and _no one _else had asked for an explanation about how government affects businesses, so your reply _was to me. _

"If anyone is in the dark as to how things that happen in Washington effect a business, just do some research. Shoot, or come out from under a rock and watch the news. Those things are easier than keeping the doors open and meeting a payroll."

Just because you left my name off Jill does not magically make the readers of this forum idiots who can't follow the conversation and understand that your rude words were most definitely targeted at me.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

I am sorry Jill, but if there is one thing that really does make me want to just start ignoring you it is the CONSTANT editing and changing the entire intent of your posts, AFTER I respond. I replied to you, above, BEFORE you went back and added these lovely words.

"Maybe you can't get enough of me, but I've had more than enough of you, your name calling meltdowns, your ranting and your baiting."

I can not understand why, if my response made you feel this way, you didnt just reply and say this. Instead you went back to one of your previous reply's and added it. The only thing that makes sense is you are trying to make it look like you are ignoring me and are taking the high road by not responding. In reality, you are not taking the high road, you are doing something even more low and dispicable, just in a retroactive way. You are purposely doing this so that the readers who didnt notice the change think I am unjustifiably replying to "old" comments.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

Just to make it clear and slightly on topic. Still no examples or mentions of what actions the current administration has taken to hurt small businesses. For me, this is a fine example of PERSONAL RESPONSIBILITY. I would estimate at least 75% of what is hurting Small Businesses, more like 100% for SB like Lil Beg or me, is simply a poor economy and people's mindset in general changing about how frivolous they have been in the past with their money. I am willing to take the personal responsibility for the success or failure of MY COMPANY, and make the changes to fix it and adapt to the economy. That is the personal responsibility that you inherit when you don't work for someone else. If all small businesses would spend more of their time working on that 75 to 100% of the problem and less time shifting the focus and blame to the government then maybe we would see a turnaround in the economy.


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)




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## minimomNC (May 3, 2012)

I don't post on these anymore because last time I was called a lazy, liberal welfare parasite, which of course I am not since I do work, I am not lazy most of the time and I have never collected welfare. I just have a mind of my own and can think for myself.

So my biggest issue with anything being posted is: instead of telling me why this person or that person is the wrong person to be president, tell me why, in detail with proof, why your candidate would make a great president. And because his isn't Obama is not a good enough reason. I want to know who is the best for the job, not just who is the worst. I want someone I can be proud to vote for, not one that I have to pick the lesser of two evils. So how about real politics instead of name calling.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

Jill, this constant belittleing and devalueing of my entire opinion, under the excuse that I am a having a "meltdown", is completely unfounded and rediculous. While I can to some point understand that you may missunderstand my "tone" because this is all in type, I have clarified over and over again for you that I am not having a meltdown. Everyone of my replies is thought out and directly related to what it is responding to, not just random grasping at emotional straws or diverserionary tactic. Again I am reminded that these words will either be ignored or belittled by you, so again, they are not for your pleasure, but more as a helping hand to guide the other readers through this complicated relationship you and I have.



This tequnique, of devalueing someones voice by trying to get everyone to ignore the "emotional meltdown" seems to remind me very much of the view on women held in the not far off past by many chauvinistic men. Just an interesting observations on how the tables turn so easily and we often never learn from our pasts, just shift the focus and blaim around and around.

Edited to add.










Valuable lesson coming up Son. Don't find out what the problem is, she just needs a bath, divert divert divert ...


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

Media Matters is one of George Soros' toys, Mary Lou. I wouldn't consider it a source of anything other than liberal spin.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

I have never h_eard_ of George Soros before but this definitly peaked my interest. Ofcourse, I have not been able to grasp the entire idea of the man or his motives yet, he appears to have quite a history, but so far seems facinating. The idea of an economist whose main passion is not centered on money but philisophy is very exciting.

The below statement about the man leads me to believe this mans interests and "toys" can not be simply summed up and dismissed as "anything other than liberal spin".

_Between 1979 and 2011, Soros gave away over $8 billion to human rights, public health, and education causes. He played a significant role in the peaceful transitionfrom communism to capitalism in Hungary (1984–89),and provided Europe's largest higher education endowment to Central European University Budapest._

People are complicated beings that should not be forced into one label or another and then dismissed because of that label. It appears that George Soros is very much a great example of that. I would recomend everybody read up about this person and not just buy into simple attacks on him. So far he seems a facinating man.

Below is a speech he gave, yes Against Bush, but what I find very interesting, if his name wasn't on it I would swear it was a Ron Paul speach.

http://www.commondreams.org/views04/0928-16.htm


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## ozymandias (May 4, 2012)

Valuable lesson coming up Son. Don't find out what the problem is, she just needs a bath, divert divert divert ...

OMG HAHAHAHA James, you have the most warped sense of humor - LOVE IT LOL !!!!


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## Sonya (May 4, 2012)

I have never h_eard_ of George Soros before but this definitly peaked my interest. Ofcourse, I have not been able to grasp the entire idea of the man or his motives yet

http://theeconomiccollapseblog.com/archives/george-soros-the-united-states-must-stop-resisting-the-orderly-decline-of-the-dollar-the-coming-global-currency-and-the-new-world-order

*So exactly what is it that George Soros is trying to accomplish? Well, in a nutshell, what he wants is a Big Brother-style one world government based on extreme European-style socialism, strict population control and the radical green agenda. It would be a world where the state tightly regulates everything that we do for the greater benefit of the environment and of society as a whole.*


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

"I guess I don't understand why everyone thinks MR will beat Obama."

Good Question Mountain, Its very simple. It follows the pattern I've been trying to explain. They have been repeatedly told that MR has the best chance to beat Obama. There is zero evidence to even posit the claim, there is no track record to prove it either yet it is doggedly maintained. They were told this about McCain as well. The pattern is to pick the weakest and promote them as the strongest. When history reveals the pattern time after time it is no longer a "theory". Refusal to recognize the pattern also does not make it a "theory".

Stand strong.


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## MountainWoman (May 4, 2012)

Maybe we should start another thread with a poll: Liberal, conservative, libertarian. I'm a liberal libertarian if there is such a thing. Live and let live.


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## MountainWoman (May 4, 2012)

minimomNC said:


> : instead of telling me why this person or that person is the wrong person to be president, tell me why, in detail with proof, why your candidate would make a great president. And because his isn't Obama is not a good enough reason. I want to know who is the best for the job, not just who is the worst. I want someone I can be proud to vote for, not one that I have to pick the lesser of two evils.


 Right there with you! I find this "anybody but Obama" humorous/discouraging/short sighted.


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

minimomNC said:


> I don't post on these anymore because last time I was called a lazy, liberal welfare parasite, which of course I am not since I do work, I am not lazy most of the time and I have never collected welfare. I just have a mind of my own and can think for myself.
> 
> So my biggest issue with anything being posted is: instead of telling me why this person or that person is the wrong person to be president, tell me why, in detail with proof, why your candidate would make a great president. And because his isn't Obama is not a good enough reason. I want to know who is the best for the job, not just who is the worst. I want someone I can be proud to vote for, not one that I have to pick the lesser of two evils. So how about real politics instead of name calling.


Minmom you are absolutely correct. I have given my reason numerous times. The lesser of two evils is of course evil. I stopped playing that game some time ago. Picking the lesser does not change direction. Speed perhaps, but not direction.


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

Valuable lesson coming up Son. Don't find out what the problem is, she just needs a bath, divert divert divert ...

Yes Ozy and at all costs and by any means.


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

*So exactly what is it that George Soros is trying to accomplish? Well, in a nutshell, what he wants is a Big Brother-style one world government based on extreme European-style socialism, strict population control and the radical green agenda. It would be a world where the state tightly regulates everything that we do for the greater benefit of the environment and of society as a whole.*

Yes Sonya, I agree. Farther back into his history also reveals a disturbing mindset, If I recall correctly. Many times the giving of money, even huge sums does not have anything to do with philanthropy, but the shaping of direction through corporate or NGO vehicles. If you are "on board" within organizations you are expected do do your part in pursuing the "goal".


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## Sonya (May 4, 2012)

to clarify, I didn't right the paragraph...I took it from the link I posted. And I see nothing in common about Soros and RP, nothing.


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

"Right there with you! I find this "anybody but Obama" humorous/discouraging/short sighted."

Well MW, I would have to think that is because you have looked past the surface and all the chaff that is held in front of you to get to the truth. Right now the Chinese dissident is being held in front of us 24/7. I have learned over the years that when I see this type of "news" cycle, I had better be rooting deeper to find out what ELSE is going on that the "media" does not want covered. Most often there is something and the revelation of it would be very damaging to Government.

Lastly the anybody but Obama mantra has been the surest way to maintain desired direction and prevent a fix. The simple fix being UNITY under the Constitution, leading to Liberty and Freedom for all.


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

"Even my mother used the name "George Soros" with a hiss of a snake.. she has no idea who George Soros is.. only knows her conservative daily radio talk shows do not like him.."

Mary Lou, You are also precisely correct and bring to the fore the very same mindset I have been trying to reveal and describe.

In my opinion it is the epitome of laziness and or fear. As designed though it seeks to degrade those that have done their research and arrived at a very different but truthful conclusion. They are Hegel-ites.......


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

One more "clinical" posit, then I will try to leave it alone. (I just love seeing things revealed...)

We have seen folk doggedly maintain that they will vote for the nominee even if he isn't their favorite. So lets map this out. Lets try not to deflect or use other mechanisms to NOT simply answer the question. But please answer simply with a yes or no.

IF (and that is the operative word) R.P were to miraculously win the nomination, would the aforementioned "party nominee" voters vote for R.P just as doggedly as they are claiming they will vote for Mitt?


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## 2minis4us (May 4, 2012)

> I'm a Republican. But, I do not think I can cast a vote for Romney. He gives me the creeps. Something about that man I do not like.


OMG !! That's EXACTLY how I feel, although I am not a Republican. I WILL NOT vote for him.


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## Carriage (May 4, 2012)

Then this is your guy. Not creepy, not a liar, not a predator. Just buried by some very concerned and powerful "people" I would only post this because I know that sly as a fox nor any "media" outlet is telling you this. Stick that in yer conspiracy bonnet....






GOP Presidential candidate Ron Paul continues to fill stadiums and attract thousands of people to his campaign events, while the establishment is once again becoming concerned about the effect Paul’s success will have on the national convention in Florida.

Paul drew a crowd of over 4000 people at the California State University at Fullerton campus yesterday at the school’s Titan Stadium.

Enthusiastic supporters were queuing around the block to get into the stadium, as the following video captured by one attendee highlights:

Paul took to the stage to boisterous chants of “President Paul!” and proceeded to outline his ‘Plan to Restore America.’

“Sounds like there’s a revolutionary spirit in town tonight,” Paul said, to thunderous applause. “I’m so encouraged that so many young people saying, ‘Things have got to change.’”

“Our time has come, and it won’t be stopped,” the Congressman noted during a 50-minute long speech. “In the short range, there will be bumps. In the long range, if we are dedicated, we will change this country and we will change the world.”

Saying that the economy was the most pressing issue at hand, Paul noted “Things have definitely changed in the last four or five years. People have woken up and realized that we don’t have a sound economic system.”

“The tragedy here in this country is that if you’re on the inside track, you get the benefits when things are going well and you get bailed out when things go bad,” he said.

“If you don’t have confidence in government, it’s a good thing,” Paul said. “You challenge things.”

Meanwhile, Paul’s refusal to drop out of the presidential race is beginning to cause some concern for establishment Republicans, as the Congressman’s supporters are ensuring that he is stealthily picking up delegates ahead of the national convention.

In the past few days, Paul has registered a number of successes at state committees and conventions in Massachusetts, Minnesota, Alaska, Iowa, Louisiana, Colorado, Pennsylvania and Rhode Island.

If Paul can score a plurality of delegates from five states, his supporters could nominate him from the convention floor. At this stage a brokered convention remains highly unlikely. However, with a strong showing among delegates the Congressman’s supporters hope to secure a speaking spot for Paul and some control over the party platform.

Josh Putnam, a professor of political science at Davidson College and expert on delegate procedures, *told TPM* that Paul’s supporters should “easily” reach the required threshold of delegate pluralities, and warned that the effects could be far reaching.

“Broadly speaking, I don’t think anyone has a firm handle on how deep this goes,” Putnam told TPM. “This is a headache for Romney and they’ll have to deal with it at some point.”

Republican officials are warning that Paul’s supporters are seizing control of the party at the State level.

“It’s down to a matter of trust,” Craig Robinson, a former political director of the Iowa Republican Party told *The Hill*.

“If you’re the Romney campaign, can you trust the Iowa GOP to work with you? If this delegation is going to go down to the Florida convention and cast their votes for Ron Paul, I think the answer is no. I wouldn’t blame the Romney campaign for being skeptical of working with the Iowa GOP.”

Similar situations are fomenting in several other states as Paul supporters are using the establishment system to their own advantage.

“Taken together, these victories and those yet to happen forecast a prominent role for Ron Paul at the RNC,” Paul campaign manager John Tate said after the Colorado and Minnesota gains. “They also signal that the convention will feature a spirited discussion over whether conservatism will triumph over the status quo.”

The Paul campaign will remain in California for the next few days and will hold several more events. The Congressman will speak at another large on-campus town hall meeting tomorrow at the University of California at Davis. On Friday, he will hold another at the University of California at San Diego.


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## Sonya (May 4, 2012)

I will answer your question Carriage with a simple answer....yes.


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## Danielle_E. (May 4, 2012)

I have to say it has been fascinating reading this thread. I feel for those who own small business in the U.S. and also in Canada. My husband is also a small business owner. It always seems that we are the ones that keep economies going and that the big guys are the ones that can get away with paying minimal taxes because of the loopholes etc.

"The current Administration is anti busines, in historic proportions. During the 2008 elections, I couldn't fathom how any business owner would support Obama. Now that he's had 3 plus years do many other things I feared he would, being smart enough to put 2 and 2 together even without his hot mic slip up, i seriously will look into the logistics of outsourcing the administrative duties of my office if hes re-elected. I love my employees and treat them well, but at the end of the day, I'm in business to stay in business."

That is truly sad that you feel that if Obama is re-elected that you will have to outsource the administrative duties. How many people from your company would you have to let go? Times are difficult for small business all over, this is not just a U.S. thing.


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## Danielle_E. (May 4, 2012)

Oh and just for the record, even though I am Canadian...if I were American I would be voting republican but only for Ron Paul and that's a big thing for me because Republican's are what the Conservative government is up here and I have NEVER votes Conservative


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## MountainWoman (May 4, 2012)

Carriage said:


> It follows the pattern I've been trying to explain. They have been repeatedly told that MR has the best chance to beat Obama. There is zero evidence to even posit the claim, there is no track record to prove it either yet it is doggedly maintained. They were told this about McCain as well. The pattern is to pick the weakest and promote them as the strongest. When history reveals the pattern time after time it is no longer a "theory". Refusal to recognize the pattern also does not make it a "theory".
> 
> Stand strong.


Good thing the weather here is still terrible today because this thread is interesting. I agree if you have a candidate, the machine gets behind him and you spend tons of money with advertising, you can sway lots of people but what you're getting is not necessarily the cream of the crop in any way.


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## MountainWoman (May 4, 2012)

Carriage said:


> "Right there with you! I find this "anybody but Obama" humorous/discouraging/short sighted."
> 
> Right now the Chinese dissident is being held in front of us 24/7. I have learned over the years that when I see this type of "news" cycle, I had better be rooting deeper to find out what ELSE is going on that the "media" does not want covered. Most often there is something and the revelation of it would be very damaging to Government.


My s/o and I were watching the news last night and were talking about the unending coverage of this story.


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## barnbum (May 4, 2012)

I like Ron Paul. He doesn't give me the creeps and he gives no-nonsense, unfluffy repsonses. I'd feel it was a valuable use of my vote. But, realistically, will we get a chance to vote for him?


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## ozymandias (May 4, 2012)

Carriage said:


> "I guess I don't understand why everyone thinks MR will beat Obama."


I really don't think for one minute that he stands a chance,


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## ozymandias (May 4, 2012)

barnbum said:


> I like Ron Paul. He doesn't give me the creeps and he gives no-nonsense, unfluffy repsonses. I'd feel it was a valuable use of my vote. But, realistically, will we get a chance to vote for him?


Oh this is SO how I feel too. He pretty much says it as it is and you really feel he's one politician who you can take at face value....MR on the other hand !


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## andi (May 4, 2012)

This whole George Soros thing really has me thinking. I stayed up almost all night watching his about 4.5 hour long lecture on his philosophys and the economy. I am really trying to understand what is wrong with this person. If the biggest offence is mentioning a New World Order, if you listen to his interviews, all he is saying is we are in a "world order" right now, with America in Charge, but if things continue going the way they have been, China will take over, and they will be the New World Order. That is EXACTLY what so many americans are sayin right now! If you read the entire article that Sonya posted, it is 10% twisting what Soros said about a New World Order and 90% just assumption that are assigned to anyone who wants a "New World Order" in the worst possible sense. This man is AGAINST governemnt control and totaltarism, in everything he does!!

I understand being suspicous when someone has alot of power or money, dont just follow the leader, who knows were they are going. But exactly how much good does someon need to do, how much personal suffering and helping the needy, before those things "count"? It seems many think that all the good this person has done has only proven that "well he must be up to something, why else would anyone in their right mind "give away" 8 Billion dollars?" Come on, how about some actually reasons to hate this person? Other than he is too good to be true.

BTW, Media Matters is not one of his "toys", he donated 1 Million dollars to them, in 2010, after they had already been operating for over 6 years. Long before his issues with Fox news, one of his main goals and what he considered the most important vital tools of a free world, was the right for honest open press. This man has had issues with "bad media" and the way they use their tool to influence a nation long before the press turned against him.

So the thought is that Sorors has spent his enitre life supporting and promoting freedom, democracy, charity and protecting the free press, just so he could trick people into trusting him, while the whole time hating all these things, so that now, at 81, he can collapse the WORLD and create a SUPER GOVERNMENT and take over, reversing all that he has done. How long will that last step take, you know, The Big Brother Takeover of the WORLD, 5-10 years? So he will be 86-91? Wow, sounds like he is a super genious, but some one really dropped the ball when it comes to time management. Maybe he is just setting this all up for John Stewart to take over and supreme ruler being of the world!


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## Jill (May 4, 2012)

Matters Matters plays a central role for the progressive political agenda. It just boggles my mind the amount of things many people are willing to set forth their opinion about while I suppose they multi task in a Google search to back it up. Oy! It feels like a grain of sand (info byte) becomes their beach. Trying to providide details turns into an arguement -- frequently with those same people who just got done saying they didn't know about the topic. Real happy we don't attend the same dinner parties


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## Jill (May 4, 2012)

barnbum said:


> I like Ron Paul. He doesn't give me the creeps and he gives no-nonsense, unfluffy repsonses. I'd feel it was a valuable use of my vote. But, realistically, will we get a chance to vote for him?


I like him a lot, too. It's very unlikely, if not impossible, that he will receive the GOP nomination. So, no, I don't think that there will be a chance to vote for him UNLESS a person wants to, for all practical purposes, throw away their vote on a third ticket.


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## andi (May 4, 2012)

Jill I do not mind at all talking with you about this, I would actually very much like to. You obviously want to talk to me also or at the very least talk about me while "I’m in the room". 

Above ^^, you are clearly responding to my opinion about Soros, and my previous admittance that I had no idea who this person was 36 hours ago, in addition you refer to my previous comment about having a bunch of Google search windows open. Whether or not you want to admit it, you are not ignoring me and I truly appreciate that and will continue the conversation you have involved me in by replying to your accusations. 





My question to those who think they know something of more value about George Soros please share. I am wondering what information people have access to that I don't. Almost everything that has ever been written about or played on tv about George Soros can be found online. Unless someone has first hand witness accounts that have formed their opinion of this person, then they have no more access to knowledge about "who is George Soros" than I do, or anyone else who can sit in front of a computer reading and watching. Supposedly I have let a "grain of sand become my beach". What makes my intel a grain of sand and someone else’s a beach? I have read 16 articles about the man, watched a 5 hour lecture done by him, watched the hour long Glenn Beck "puppet master" special, watched the John Stewart response, read speeches by Soros, all the while researching the many references made in these articles and videos that I had never heard of, so I could understand them. LOL 



I can follow the logic, that time and experience effects our opinions of things and our understanding of them, but that does not apply to something we will never have direct contact with or an opportunity to experience first hand. For example, to assume you know everything about horse care because you had a horse for day is unrealistic, experience will be your biggest teacher. With something like George Soros, unless someone is going to go work with him and get to know him any more than the many articles and videos, then "experience" will never make any difference. The articles and videos that I formed my opinion on are all ANY OF US have, you, me and everyone else reading. 

As I said before and almost everyone has, if you have an opinion, and you think others should agree and support it, tell us the actual information that helped you form it! If you are above that or just simple don't have a reason for your opinions, maybe you should consider the size of your beach before criticizing others. 



BTW, I went to the Romney website, to see the actual examples of what exactly Obama did, specifically to Tax's on Small businesses. This website was put up as a great place to find those answers, for those interested. I had high hopes when I saw the complexity of the website and with the understanding that this person has been given the largest platform to share knowledge with all of us. I was even more excited when I did as directed, clicking into subcategories to learn about things "in detail", I was told by doing so I could find more information than needed. I then found the heading, "Obama's Failure", which was under the heading "Taxes", this is exactly what I was looking for! Sadly though, it was just two very generalized paragraphs with NO references to any specific actions. Not one footnote to follow and see the vague references the article was speaking about. Honestly, if I had wrote that as school project, explaining the failure of an administration, it would have amounted to nothing more than a glorified introduction, and if no substance followed, and F. Almost sounds like a grain of sand made to sound like a beach?


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## Carriage (May 5, 2012)

I appreciate those who answered the question

However, it's tough for some

"I like him a lot, too. It's very unlikely, if not impossible, that he will receive the GOP nomination. So, no, I don't think that there will be a chance to vote for him UNLESS a person wants to, for all practical purposes, throw away their vote on a third ticket."

This didn't answer the question at all. Rather it changed the question. (Please remember previous studies on this) The question was, IF by some miracle R.P. became the nominee would you support him with the same fervor. Really it requires much less twisting and no deflection to answer the question with a simple yes or no. Truth is simple, fraud is complex.


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## Carriage (May 5, 2012)

"As I said before and almost everyone has, if you have an opinion, and you think others should agree and support it, tell us the actual information that helped you form it! If you are above that or just simple don't have a reason for your opinions, maybe you should consider the size of your beach before criticizing others." 

Nice summation James. Clears the chaff and "chads" outa the way. Always go back to the original question. Buy the movement not the stack (pose).


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## Jill (May 5, 2012)

Cranky / Bob / Carriage -- It's just too bad if it bothers you. My reply to which you refer was to another forum member and was right on point as far as I'm concerned. And, even better, it wasn't three and a half miles long.


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## andi (May 5, 2012)

Carriage, I think you may be in one of the "transitional phases" of being ignored by Jill / Whinny for me Farm / Wife of Harvey / Friend of Sonya / Regressive Conservative / Ignorer of James / Lover of Angel Fish and Parrot Fish (the Dwarf of the Fish World) / Home of the Largest collection of Virginia Bred Unregistered Double Dilute Animals In ALL OF SPOTSYLVNIA, VA. 





While I understand some of those titles and alias's may have no affect on the posters opinions or even be anyone’s business (heck I don’t even know if they are true, but what does that matter at this point), it appears that some on here feel it appropriate to be constantly trying to "expose" people they disagree with. Maybe a polite email to the person would be a better idea, if you think it is so important to know the name and all previous names of all posters you disagree with. 

I would apologize to those this offends, but instead will just take the highroad, follow the behavior of my elders who have taught by example on this wonderful forum, do the mature thing, and say, "It's just to bad if it bothers you."


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## tagalong (May 5, 2012)

Media Matters is not controlled by Soros - no matter how much some will insist it is. Not even close. I find it amusing that those who get agitated about Soros doing things on the left will always overlook and excuse what the Koch Brothers have done on the right by way of manipulation etc.

It works both ways. Hypocrisy abounds on both sides.

Politifact is another good place to go to check facts about anything to do with politics. They are non-partisan and examine and criticize everyone equally for their nonsense - as well as truths. They are neither right - nor left.

As was mentioned upthread, if you only take a very small percentage of what is examined at Media Matters into consideration, there is still a lot to be concerned about. The fact that Fox News is seen as many not to be "lamestream media" - is ironic - they do the exact same thing all the other media does, only with their slant on it. They are mainstream/lamestream. They are no better than any other media outlet out there.... _fair & balanced_ is just an advertising slogan, not a mission statement.

As the election draws closer, Politifact will be a good place to check out the advertising claims... they just did an interesting article that shows how things can be manipulated and distorted to present a "message" - HERE. And yes, they will dissect left leaning ads in exactly the same way.

And it would be nice if we could have a discussion WITHOUT insults and sneers. But judging from what happened here during the 2008 election, I am not sure that is possible... y'all need to KNOCK IT OFF with the personal slams and act like adults. Enough already. We already had this entore topic banned due to bad behaviour in similar threads. I would not want that to happen again.

IMO some of you need to go back and do some editing on your posts. Seriously.


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## Vertical Limit (May 5, 2012)

tagalong said:


> And it would be nice if we could have a discussion WITHOUT insults and sneers. But judging from what happened here during the 2008 election, I am not sure that is possible... y'all need to KNOCK IT OFF with the personal slams and act like adults. Enough already. We already had this entore topic banned due to bad behaviour in similar threads. I would not want that to happen again.
> 
> IMO some of you need to go back and do some editing on your posts. Seriously.


AMEN! Come on people! Lets not get this to where it has to go POOF!


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## Danielle_E. (May 5, 2012)

I agree 100%. Proper discussions and disagreement with facts to back up what is being said is truly wonderful. The innuendoes and snide remarks because someone does not agree with you is best left at the door as they say. The great thing about this thread is the fact that people are passionate about politics. What would be worse as far as I am concerned is apathy, like those in the Us and Canada that say, well I don't like anyone so I am not voting. People die in other countries just to be able to vote.


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## andi (May 5, 2012)

I couldn't agree more with snide comments, belittling and insults, having been both the victim and the attacker at different times. I think the big problem is they work like a "bubble". They get made by some commenters very often, very subtly and right from the start, slowly escalating, with no one wanting to cause a fight over something small or insignificant, they get noticed, but ignored. They have to cross a certain line before they can be dealt with, so they build and build, creating tension. At some point, a line is crossed, and it is obvious to everyone that it is inappropriate and the bubble bursts. I feel very strongly, the only way to fix this, is for us members to call each other out on the poor sportsmanship the very second it starts. It does no good to just chime in when it goes overboard, by that point there is no denying it, even the offenders can see the problem. Deal with the problem at the root, when it starts. Ignoring it is no solution, it festers, and members either "burst" or leave the topic, nothing resolved. I think we can all have logical, though controversial, conversations, but only if we respect one another from the very start, at the base level.


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## Carriage (May 6, 2012)

"Deal with the problem at the root, when it starts. Ignoring it is no solution, it festers, and members either "burst" or leave the topic, nothing resolved. I think we can all have logical, though controversial, conversations, but only if we respect one another from the very start, at the base level."

Well said James. The fly in the ointment is respect.

I thought that we were having a discussion with reason. Now I hear that we are not. Still, another (if not last) chance to see a behavioral display in the reveal. Again these are Hegalian mechanisms are designed to control the discussion and ultimate outcome.

Having tried my very best to be polite in pointing out these mechanisms, how to identify them and the myriad ways they manifest in not just others but most importantly ourselves, we see, come into play, yet another controlling behavior designed to stifle rational, reasoning and exploratory discussion. This is when the "opposition" side creates conflict on purpose in order to shut down the previously described conversation or steer it to a direction to their liking. The tells are easy in that by doing so the previously described forms of attack are brought to the forefront and are clearly visible. A simply and politely asked question should not bring about this type of behavior. This is what has come into play.

Jill you asked me a question to which I gave a very firm and concise answer. I am now asking you a very similar question. IF R.P. by some miracle becomes the nominee, will you vote for him and support him as you normally would the party nominee? As you have stated a desire for Rubio, I would point out that, at least, R.P. has a chance, whereas Rubio does not. Constitutionally Rubio is ineligible in the first place. Yes we have a similar problem now, however reps don't seem to know their Constitution very well or,.... at all really. Rather than the argumentative construct of typing three names (one of which you called me in attack) you may save a few electrons and just type one.

I am more than happy to abide by the wishes of the list owner and will do so. However the matter is not as simple as layed out and the mechanisms should be examined for what they are. The attempt to control cogent conversation by a bully few, even if they have to blow it up.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

Carriage said:


> Jill you asked me a question to which I gave a very firm and concise answer. I am now asking you a very similar question. IF R.P. by some miracle becomes the nominee, will you vote for him and support him as you normally would the party nominee?


Gosh, I've said it many times. I will vote for WHOEVER is on the the GOP ticket this November and be happy to do it. I'll be one of the first people at the polls






At this point, I don't think by any stretch of reality it could be RP on the ticket, but if so, you betcha I'll cast my vote that way





It looks like my own state Governor may be on the short list to be in the VP slot


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## Carriage (May 6, 2012)

"At this point, I don't think by any stretch of reality it could be RP on the ticket, but if so, you betcha I'll cast my vote that way



"

Thank you.


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## Danielle_E. (May 6, 2012)

I left lilbeginnings for about two years because of some behaviors back then. Being insulted for your beliefs and points of view just didn't make it inviting to participate in this forum. I know that all of us can choose to read or participate in any thread here without worry of belittlement or sarcastic and rude remarks. You are right about bullying, it seems to happen not just by children but also adults. Instead of leaving the forum all together I suggest just using the ignore feature if you feel you are being personally attacked verbally. Certainly not saying we all have to agree on a topic, that would be so boring, but respect has to work both ways.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

I'm really surprised that / if you didn't already get that is my feeling, Carriage.

Wild horses won't keep me from the polls. I haven't missed an election, from local to National, in 20+ years and for some time now, I support the GOP ticket. Not blindly but because in my heart, mind and soul, I feel the GOP most closely matches how I feel on matters that are most important to me.

If you misunderstood my intention to vote RP if he's on the ticket, maybe I've misunderstood some of your messages as well


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## barnbum (May 9, 2012)

Boy--I just don't think MR is the one to win an election over Obama...

It's unsettling to be coming to an election and not have confidence in either candidate. Eeek.


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## ozymandias (May 9, 2012)

barnbum said:


> Boy--I just don't think MR is the one to win an election over Obama...
> 
> It's unsettling to be coming to an election and not have confidence in either candidate. Eeek.


I'm so with you. MR just (IMO) isn't strong enough on any issue to gather the momentum he needs. Sure he'll get the "I'm voting for whoever the GOP ticket needs me to vote for" but I just don't feel he can't gather the undecided and independent voters. I'm there myself. I realize not voting for him is giving a free vote to Obama but I just don't know if I could vote for him. I've been seriously thinking of selling out and buying a boat http://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/21526 I could happily be a sea gypsy


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## Jill (May 14, 2012)

*FYI:*

"Rep. Ron Paul of Texas said Monday he will not compete in primaries in any of the states that have not yet voted — essentially confirming Mitt Romney will win the Republican presidential nomination."
Read more: http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2012/may/14/ron-paul-ends-his-hunt-votes/


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## ozymandias (May 14, 2012)

Looks like RP's supporters are more willing to run the race than their candidate


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## Jill (May 14, 2012)

Oh, Mary Lou, that website you listed is all about promoting the progressive left agenda. "ThinkProgress.org",,, really...





Maybe you'd want to research "Progressive Politics"? If you're not already aware of what the Progressive agenda actually is about.


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## ozymandias (May 14, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Good luck with Mitt Romney.. For your pleasure.. I found this..
> 
> http://thinkprogress.org/romney-facts/


LOL, tell me, hahaha !!!!

It's a sad world when that's the best we (the GOP) can come up with.


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## MountainWoman (May 15, 2012)

Maybe it's not Ron Paul's time this year but he has made a significant impact and will continue to do so. His message resonates with many of us and with young people as well. It is such a shame when the best the Republican party can come up with is MR (my opinion) and I will not be voting for him. I'll be standing with the Libertarian party. I do think third parties are going to come more and more into prominence when there are many of us who don't fit into the established parties. Who knows where this election will take us but it's going to be ugly and leave us all a little bit more damaged and downheartened and split us all further apart.


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## Carriage (May 15, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> LOL, tell me, hahaha !!!!
> 
> It's a sad world when that's the best we (the GOP) can come up with.


Sadder still? When its the best they can come up with EVERY time. This IS a rerun.


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## Carriage (May 15, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Oh well.. I guess EVERYTHING is NOT TRUE on that page.. sorry.. I will not post anymore.. just wanted to share what I found..


Please post. I suspect that there was much truth about Robme in the piece. If one wants to know the truth of a thing, one must accept intell from all sources. To simply dismiss a source because it is "liberal" OR right "wing" is a sure way to miss much. I know that I've been able to move farther in understanding on a "thing" because I critically examine the diamond from all facets Again if you get rid of the programmed left/right sophistry and programming the "ah ha" moments mount up. Some can, some can't/won't.

Mary Lou, you posted a picture revealing a falsehood that has been studiously ignored by neo's. That picture spoke volumes about the entire charade.


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## Carriage (May 15, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> Maybe it's not Ron Paul's time this year but he has made a significant impact and will continue to do so. His message resonates with many of us and with young people as well. It is such a shame when the best the Republican party can come up with is MR (my opinion) and I will not be voting for him. I'll be standing with the Libertarian party. I do think third parties are going to come more and more into prominence when there are many of us who don't fit into the established parties. Who knows where this election will take us but it's going to be ugly and leave us all a little bit more damaged and downheartened and split us all further apart.


You are most probably correct specific to winning. However we should never be apologetic about refusing to compromise with evil and standing on truth. Going back to the origin of this post specific to the creed, this is where we stand. Knowing the whole time that those who refuse to compromise are hated and ridiculed. While it seems odd that that those who profess to be "conservative" are actively stumpin for a socialist who WILL move us farther down that road and a way from a Constitutional Republic founded in LIBERTY, this is the control the slave-master has and the slave will obey. There is no foundation allowing them to do otherwise. The cold, heart of stone and myopic self interest will enable them to do unspeakable things because there is no foundation. This is why the Constitution has so little meaning for them. For if it truly did, they would have only one rational choice.

That is not our road. Our road is the creed. They are choosing to loose again. Whether their chosen (for them) "candidate" wins or not,. America looses either way. We're not budgen, and they will be buggin..... Still, the reasonably weighted Lady has not sung yet.....

When you have done everything to stand, STAND! (Look it up). I will be standing with you.


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## Jill (May 15, 2012)

Here's some more good news, in my opinion, on the Ron Paul front:

"Spokesman rules out Gary Johnson endorsement, keeps door open for Romney... A top campaign official for Ron Paul’s presidential campaign says there’s “no chance” that the Texas Republican congressman will endorse Libertarian Party nominee Gary Johnson for president over presumptive GOP nominee Mitt Romney."
Read more: http://dailycaller.com/2012/05/15/ron-paul-campaign-rules-out-endorsing-libertarian-party-nominee/#ixzz1uyiHbQyb


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## MountainWoman (May 15, 2012)

I didn't expect RP to endorse the Libertarian candidate. He's trying to make changes within the party and he's hoping to influence the platform at the convention. Does that mean RP supporters are going to vote for Romney? Some will but I don't know any who are and I know quite a few at this point. I think it's pretty humorous to think that any one person can "deliver" their supporters to a candidate who offers them nothing that they want. Heard someone talking on Fox News about this the other day saying people put way too much stock in the influence of endorsements. I agree because we all think for ourselves, form our own opinions and follow our consciences or at least I would hope we do.


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## ozymandias (May 15, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> I didn't expect RP to endorse the Libertarian candidate. He's trying to make changes within the party and he's hoping to influence the platform at the convention. Does that mean RP supporters are going to vote for Romney? Some will but I don't know any who are and I know quite a few at this point. I think it's pretty humorous to think that any one person can "deliver" their supporters to a candidate who offers them nothing that they want. Heard someone talking on Fox News about this the other day saying people put way too much stock in the influence of endorsements. I agree because we all think for ourselves, form our own opinions and follow our consciences or at least I would hope we do.


Well said!

If I needed a shepherd I'd be going "bahhhh, bahhhhh"


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## Jill (May 15, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> If I needed a shepherd I'd be going "bahhhh, bahhhhh"


You might not need a shepherd, but this Nation needs a leader.


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