# mini andalusian?



## 2minis (Aug 28, 2006)

This doesn't seem physically possible, but a canadian andalusian breeder (swan creek), has a foal on their pages that is supposed to have a mini (no registry notated) dam, and an andalusian sire. He IS pretty big in relation to the mare.... ouch!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 28, 2006)

I've seen someone breed a tiny pony mare to an 18hh warmblood... it was disturbing, but that's what the owner wanted. Luckily the mare decides the foal's size, not the sire. Also luckily people must have been nearby when she foaled... I'm not jealous! I've seen enough problems with big horses, not interested in seeing them in minis. Eek... But yeah, plenty of people do that.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 29, 2006)

Nathan I am sorry, we always seem to be at odds- please it is nothing personal






The fact of the mare dictating the size of the foal is one of th oldest myths in the book and in no way should it be taken as "gospel" in a situation that might affect the mares life.

It is based on a study that is now nearly a hundred years old and involved Percherons and standard (ie 42" + ) Native Shetland Mares, which themselves look like small Draught horses.

The study does not state how many of the mares died giving birth.

In those days if you were a professor and you had a camera to provide pictures what you said went in the books!!!

Everyone, myself included, has stories of mares caught by accident by much larger stallions and giving birth without problems.

Come to this Forum in the Spring when foaling starts and people start losing foals to too big foal, dystocia etc and tell me then that the mare governs the size of the foal.

Not true, I am afraid, sadly, not true.


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## Vicky Texas (Aug 29, 2006)

Okay, I went and found the web site and here is the link...

http://www.swancreekandalusians.ca/

I so do not feel that a mini mare should be bred to these big horses. It is so heart

breaking to see. The foal is on 2006 foals page. I also went on the page for Tribute

to Sissy, this page is very heart breaking, a loss of a mare. But the pictures are so

heart breaking towards the bottom. They put pictures of her after she died, and other

horses saying goodbye. Just to much for me.

Vicky


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 29, 2006)

It does say at the bottom she is a small pony mare- I wonder how big she really is??

I just cannot understand some people, though!!


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## Minimor (Aug 29, 2006)

Actually the one study was done--not sure how many years ago--at one of the US universities, using 20-some "small Shetland" mares & breeding them to draft stallions, and all the mares foaled without difficulties.

Since we hear of Mini mares being bred to smaller stallions & still having foaling problems (that is, foal too large) and since I've know of large breed horse mares having foals which were too large for them to foal (not bred to larger draft stallions either) it's apparent there are risks involved in breeding whatever the sizes.

I wouldn't personally breed Mini/small pony mares to large horse breed stallions, but surprisingly it seems to work for most who do it.


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## Little Wee Horse Farm (Aug 29, 2006)

My question would be: WHY???? Perhaps mixing two established breeds is like breeding to get a "designer dog," but when the size difference is so great, would a sane person cross a Great Dane stud to a Chihuahua bitch? It might be ok to mix breeds (horse or dog or cats) of COMPARABLE size. This seems to be just an experiment or a joke (at any rate for some human benefit), but it could have ended in death for mare & foal. So, it is sad to me.



And Nathan, it has been proven to be a myth that the mare alone decides the size of unborn foal. If it were so, we as mini breeders would need take no care in choosing breedings. But, we all know we must be VERY careful indeed.

No, it doesn't make me jealous. It makes me sick. ALMOST anyone would know, if you were trying to downsize a breed, that if it is at all possible, it must be done slowly over generations. You don't start with the greatest difference & hope for success, possibly at the price of the mare's life. I hate this post!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 29, 2006)

I wonder if you did a breeding trial with a group of pony mares and pony stallions, vs pony mares and draft stallions, if the dystocia rate would be similar. Everyone knows that mini mares have a MUCH higher risk of birthing problems, but that doesn't mean that the mare doesn't dictate foal size.



Its not a wives tale, hehe. If so, the mares would explode, not just have dystocia.


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## kaykay (Aug 29, 2006)

HI Nathan

When you have bred miniature mares for a few years check back with us



I agree with Rabbit that saying the size of the foal is determined by the mare is a big wives tale. Kinda like the one that when a minis tail hits the ground its done growing LOL.

I have a good friend that lost one of her best mares from a foal that was HUGE. Both the mare and foal died. I also have friends that had to have foals CUT OUT as there was no way they could deliver the foal as it was too big. I hope you never ever hear the sound of the saw cutting a foal out of a mare, but if you ever do you will no longer believe that myth.

Kay


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 29, 2006)

I have video from the C-section I watched: want to see?

My POINT, if people see it, is that there isn't a huge INCREASE in risk for a mini/mini vs mini/horse cross. Yes, mini's have a huge chance of dystocia (I've carried enough dying mares into the hospital out of trailers after the owners watched them struggle for 6 hours, or found them in the morning still struggling). But my experience with minis is breeding them to horses, and I haven't seen a huge problem in the limited numbers I've seen. My point is there is a low INCREASE of risk. The risk already is high. The wives tale in this case is true, sorry. Same for horse/draft crosses, and pony/draft crosses.


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## Little Wee Horse Farm (Aug 29, 2006)

Nathan - I see by your website that you are quite learned in equine reproduction. Excuse me, but I've had actual experience breeding large & small equine for decades. I respectfully disagree with your position.

It seems with big equine, you can breed a mare to a larger stud with minimal complications. With the minis, if a much larger stud is used, the mare can have great difficulty delivering that foal. No, I don't believe it will grow larger than the uterus can accomodate, but I do believe it can grow larger than birth canal can accomodate.

Sorry, I beg to differ with your stance. I have educated myself as much as possible without attending university & obtaining degrees in equine studies. To me, where horses are concerned, experience and the knowledge that comes with it, counts a whole lot too. I'm not implying that your education and experience would not qualify you to make such an observation, only that those with much direct experience with miniatures may look at it in a slightly different light.

I understand your use of the term INCREASE in risk. I still disagree. I believe there is an increase, yes. But I also believe it is a big increase in risk, (of breeding large stud to small mare) due the the statements I made above. Your thots?

Whew! Is it getting hot in here?


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## kaykay (Aug 29, 2006)

nathan c sections are great but not at all the same as what i am talking about. Not many owners can get a mare already in labor and struggling to a hospital for a csection before she and the foal both die. Since you know about foaling you have to know that minutes count. Not everyone lives by an equine hospital. I am lucky that i am fairly close to one. But it would still take me at least an hour plus to get a mare there and that was if everything went perfectly.

Im just curious how many miniature mares you have foaled out that were bred to big horses? And Im not talking about ponies. Miniature mares!


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## littlearab (Aug 29, 2006)

:no: I'm no expert by any means. But last year ,I had a mare who has having foaling problems. After what seemed like hours. We found a vet who was around(long story). He was not my normal vet so did not know us at all. But said to bring her asap.

The first thing that vet asked when we unloaded her and saw her was "Ok what he!! did you bred her too? I'm sick to death of you people breeding your kids ponies to a QH stud to get that perfect mid sized pony. And killing the mare." After telling him she was bred to a mini stud,he calmed down.

He did save the mare after an hour and 1/2 of hard work...

So IMHO and in that equine vets mind with many years experince the idea that it's Ok to bred a much larger stallion to a much smaller mare is an old wise tale it is foolish.

Even when breeding cattle.... If it were true that the female decides the size of the baby there would not be birth wieghts listed for every bull sold and the ones born smaller bring much higher prices..

And it not apples and oranges .... it mare and cows.... or any animal...


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 29, 2006)

My goodness, you people delight in taking a random piece of trivia and turning it into a "I'm older than thou and therefore know better than you" comment. The people that bred that tiny pony (I don't remember how tall it was, but it was close to mini size if not actually a mini) had hired the region's premier reproduction vet, not some yahoo off the street. And I believe she's up to 20 years experience, I don't recall exactly. A c-section IS cutting the mare open to deliver the (in this case dead) foal.


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## Little Wee Horse Farm (Aug 29, 2006)

Hi Nathan -- That's not really it. We don't "delight" in it. You might have suspected that you might get a negative response from a group of serious miniature breeders. A smart performer always considers his audience. I'm sorry, I don't care who did it == I still don't like it. Frankenstein ( in Mary Shelley's book) was also a doctor, but I don't approve of his methods either. JMHO


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## kaykay (Aug 29, 2006)

maybe we all need to take a deep breath





Nathan i feel bad that you feel picked on by the forum. Really dont at all want you to feel that way at all!! age has nothing to do with anything here. Experience does. I know you are working tword a repro degree but I think it bothers people to see you giving advice on foaling out miniature horses when you have no experience in it. It so different to breed and foal out mares every year then it is to work in a clinic and see an occassional miniature pass thru the door. Please keep in mind that we live eat and breathe this. Im on mare stare right now and am very worried that the foal has gotten too big for this mare to deliver. Because I KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE that even breeding a small stallion to a small mare sometimes creats a foal that is too big to be delivered. Problem is that these guys were bred down not long ago so sometimes size comes back in a huge way when you least expect it.

Kay


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## disneyhorse (Aug 29, 2006)

I really don't think any ethical breeder would recommend breeding a larger horse to a smaller mare, PARTICULARLY with the miniatures.

They are selectively bred to be smaller, so this artificial selection makes the breeding process more difficult. Thus you see problems in some dog breeds such as bulldogs and chihuahuas. They just can't birth as naturally as a wolf can. It's a man made problem.

Ethical breeders would never put their mare or foal at risk, for the health of the mare along with the financial and time lost as a mare carries only one baby for almost a year!

Andrea


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 29, 2006)

I can't actually see the point, anyway.

Why take the risk when you could use a nice Sec A Welsh mare, that much bigger (in most cases) and built to last??

Why on earth would anyone take the risk of the foal growing too large, as we are all only too aware it can.

Nathan I'm sorry, I did apologise at the beginning, I am NOT "picking" on you I am just correcting you when you trot out an adage that we all know to be incorrect.

It's the same as the Quest issue- it worries me that people come on here for advice and they may see someone saying that "so-and-so" is fine and dandy, when we know, from years of bitter experience, that it is not.

Please, Sweetie, open your mind, there is a whole world of experience on this Forum that you do not have.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Aug 29, 2006)

A mare won't "grow" a foal larger than she can carry, but they DO grow larger than what can be foaled out. THAT'S the problem. They can't pass through the pelvis.

Personally, on my farm, no mare is bred to a stallion that is more than 1 inch larger than she is. We have seven stallions, so have a great choice. There is really no reason to breed to a larger stallion.

Lucy


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 29, 2006)

kaykay said:


> giving advice on foaling out miniature horses


I did no such thing, I know better



I'm just telling a tale of several happy foals I know that were the product of a warmblood/mini breeding, and that the "wives tale" is not such. Mini's have major problems, everyone has said that, and I certainly wouldn't deny that whatsoever.

And Rabbit, I'm not your sweetie, so please don't talk condescending to me like that


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## Songcatcher (Aug 29, 2006)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> And Rabbit, I'm not your sweetie, so please don't talk condescending to me like that


Chill Nathan. The term is often used by more mature (I did NOT say old) people to refer to younger people. I'm sure Jane meant no offense.

Jane, you can call me sweetie anytime. I will not take offense. (I do think you are just a tad older than me.)


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## jlh (Aug 29, 2006)

I'm going to go out on a limb in this case, and guess that this was an AI breeding. I've certainly had a 34" mare foal out to a B stallion and have a baby who was nearly as tall in proportion as the andalusion pair- the filly might stay under 38", but we've got another year before final height.

that foaling was easy, out of an experienced mother with plenty of pelvis room to shoot out her longlegged offspring. this was probably the first of her foals to be observed in birthing, she usually is so fast that if you blink you've missed it. I'm thinking that the andalusian breeder is looking to introduce several breed specific characteristics in the cross, and while it wouldn't be my choice, i can see the economic sense of this cross.

those that know me may also know I'm not usually even going to consider a stallion over 32" unless he can provide something special to the mix. (I will, however, sell a 34" stallion in the hopes he'll be used for the right program.)


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 29, 2006)

Songcatcher said:


> The term is often used by more mature (I did NOT say old) people to refer to younger people.


Nobody calls me sweetie, its a very condescenting term. Not my mother, not my grandmother, not my most revered female figure. I asked nicely, please do not use that term in reference to me.


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## sdmini (Aug 29, 2006)

We have had foaling complications in the past, one on average a year for all families involved. Out of those there has not been one significant factor linking all or even the majority. Sometimes the sire was larger, sometimes smaller, some young, some old, some never before or again had problems while others we never again got in foal.

Granted sire and dam size is a prediction of what to expect, much like fortune telling. Knowing your bloodlines and their body style is a safer way to predict what you can and can not bred to.

We all know there are exceptions to the rule but no good ever came of bidding the exception rather than the rule. This does not mean I condom pairings such as the one above, really it is a complete turn off to me as I really don't understand the point. Nor do I think any Tom, Dick and Harry should feel comfortable breeding a significantly larger stallion to a mini. However on my farm I pay less attention to heights and more attention to body style and my opinion is based in my experience as well as conversations with several vets over the years.

I'm sure their are those that will say they have more experience than I and they are likely right but if we factor in my family even on the low ball average that is 50 foals over 30 years that's 1,500 foals.



:


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 29, 2006)

Good Grief Nathan the more I learn the less I think there is likely to be anyone who would _want_ to call you that!!!

You really do need to get down off your high horse and relax a bit , you know!!

Forgive, me please for trying to be friendly.

Rest assured I shall not bother trying again.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Aug 29, 2006)

while we all know what a c-section is I am sure that what kay was talking about is something I to have witnessed and hope not to do so again.

A c-section to remove a foal be it live or dead is one thing.. watching a vet have to cut up a foal in order to get it out of the mare meaning cutting of limbs and head is a whole other thing to witness.

Now all of that said I am not sure where I stand on this issue. I mean large horses have also had dystocias due to foals being to large. So yes in that case I do see what you are saying about not being a huge increase in the risk.

It isnt something I would choose as personally if I felt the n eed to do this type of a cross I would do it the other way around with a small stallion and large mare.

That said I have bred a larger stallion to a smaller mare and dont believe in the 1 in height difference allowed. Most of my breeding mares are 34 and over and would have no issue breeding them to a 38 in stallion. For me the key isnt just the height but the build of both the mare and the stallion as well. I have a few mares who I waited until they were 5 to breed simply due to the fact they are refined and I wanted to be sure they were mature enough physically


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## ~Palomino~ (Aug 29, 2006)

Well if you click on his page you can see a picture of his mom by a tramp, I have the same tramp and my mare Magic is only 29.5" and she can EASLEY fit under there, so I am betting this mare is a little bit bigger then a miniature horse. . .

Gage


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## Bess Kelly (Aug 29, 2006)

For years I specialized in only 28" & unders. Carefully I looked at all backgrounds!!! While there have been a few dystocias, most were at a time when we had fescue grass-- WOW!! NEVER AGAIN. At this time there was one mare who had a foal so large she could not have passed it -- CSection -- it took 2 vets to lift the foal out! Foal dead, mare fine and rebred, has foaled nicely since. The sire to this foal was 3" shorter, finely built and small background. The reason for the size was the fescue issue. A couple mares had dystocias that year, most aborted early enough to not have issues with size. One dystocia which required a C was a hiplock and head/neck bent to side, just not in correct delivery position or it would have passed (again, same fescue year).

OK, onward -- having many of these small mares my concern was to use the stallion who threw the small, refined type foal consistently, for their first foal. After that, I used some who were as much as 31-32" with 27" mares and had no problems with the foalings.

In my entire experience with breeding minis, I have had only ONE mare who just couldn't get the pelvic bones to move to foal. That foal did have to be removed via dismembering. Mare was not re-bred. Another foal I had to remove via dismember, early delivery (aborted) and not in position.....1 hr attempt to reposition didn't work. This was not pleasant but, far easier on the mare than a C-section. Foal was already lost and mare is fine & foaling well. I used to keep about 45-50 broodmares and foaled out about 30 a year. There's the occassional bent leg, bent head but overall, they foal nicely. I did lose a mare 3 years ago due to an upside down breach, but the main reason I had to have her put down was that she prolapsed rectally and it was not from a foal foot....just weak tissue. So paying for a C was not going to get her out of the situation otherwise it would have been done.

SO -- while I personally do not advocate the breeding of full-sized stallions to minis, I cannot find any issues with the stallions which have been sires to some tiny mares I have bought in foal.....was concerned but, all went nicely. Personally the refinement of bone and head is more of a concern than height in my selection of crosses to my mini mares. I, too, believe that most mares will carry a size that can be delivered.

So many of the foal losses can be from other than the mares ability to get it out. And, looking back at all the facts, many times the loss of the mare is from foaling issues other than the foal being a size that can come out. Oh, there are those whose foals are just too big but, a higher percentage have resulted from damage during birthing (including ruptured blood vessels), retained placenta, infections, hyperlipemia,etc.

EVERY breeder must weight the delight in a new life with the possible effect on the birth mother. It's also a situation that should command preparedness and having done your homework to get the best results. There are times when that fails, too.......like my mare three years ago, RIP Candy. It haunts me still.

Certainly this is why the issue of "size" is so emotional.


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## mondak (Aug 29, 2006)

I will have to agree with Nathan in that I see no problem with this cross. The mother is not a TINY mini, in fact she looks rather tall, not much under 13hh, and the stud is 15hh. This also does not look like an uneducated breeding operation and I am sure that they consulted the vet before proceding with it. I actually am excited to see that people are taking innovative sets in the mini lines. You have to remember that if the people before us hadn't introduced larger breeds into the shetland lines, there would be NO miniature horse. As for the question "why".....why not??? The Andalusian breed is a very athletic horse and I think that with the slow introduction of superior breeds like the Andalusian it will only help to make the miniature horse to become more conformationally and athletically superior. I personally cannot wait to see this fad of exagerated refinement pass.

Courtney

JMHO, no flames please, did not post this to anger anyone, just to provide another side to the argument...


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 30, 2006)

I thought the mare was around 13hh too, but, then, why would they say she is a Mini??

Also, if you look again you will see a picture of her with the foal and a person and she is definitely larger than a Mini but much smaller than a pony.

In all the years I bred Arabs I lost ONE foal, ONE that is all - the possibility did not even occur to me, before that.

Minis have a track record of dystocias- for whatever reason.

Andalusians, I think a pretty heavy animals- hefty at the least.

I have crossed larger horses on small mares, Welsh and Welsh bred mares and had no trouble and nice results but once you start upping the height and changing the breed you tend to leave the problems behind.

Welsh have little track record of problems foaling, for a start.

No, this is not a cross I would do, nor one I have ANY idea why anyone would do it anyway, and I stand by what I have said- IMO the size of the mare does not govern the size of the foal, except within the obvious bounds in that the foal does not actually burst the uterus- I think that is obvious??

I thought about this last night - the problem is that the foals grow_ too big to be passed_ maybe we are arguing at cross purposes here??

I just thought it was obvious that a foal could not grow bigger than the insides of the mare





There was every chance that that could have happened in the case of the Andalusian X Pony mare- and every chance it could yet happen.


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## horsesmakeubroke (Aug 30, 2006)

Hi folks

We stand several stallions (all horses apart form a 14.2 Arab) at stud. We advise against covering a mare that was for than 2 hands smaller than the stallion, even though 90% of our cover is by AI. I know in Ireland, there are a lot of people covering small pony mares (12.2 - 13.2) to much larger horse stallions in an effort to breed 14.2 jumping ponies. With natural cover, there is also a significant risk of internal damange to the mare caused by the larger stallion, not to mention oversized foals. It doesn't take an unusally enormous foal to cause foaling problems in a mare. Rabbit is right, the deaths of mares is not widely publicised.


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## Little Wee Horse Farm (Aug 30, 2006)

Ok, so a 13 hand equine is about 62 inches at the whithers, if the standard of 4 inches per hand is used. If the mare was 13H, then she would be about 62 inches. That's WAY different from a mini, since the top height is 38 inches, or 9-1/2 hands. A difference of TWO FEET! It was stated, however, that this was a tiny mini, setting us off. I think the thing is that on the forum, we know what a "tiny" mini is.

If we had known this, there wouldn't probably be much discussion. But say "mini" and Andalusion & my hackles go up automatically! If we had but known, this discussion would be non-existant, I believe.


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## wcr (Aug 30, 2006)

The vet group I use are very knowledgeable and I am lucky to have them. They adopted several of the PMU mares that were paint or Norwegians bred to draft stallions. They are vets and helped each other out but every foaling they had out of these mares resulted in the loss of foal, mare or both. Very bad experience for them. Why risk our minis who have a higher incidence of foaling problems. Not my cup of tea.


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## chandab (Aug 30, 2006)

Little Wee Horse Farm said:


> Ok, so a 13 hand equine is about 62 inches at the whithers, if the standard of 4 inches per hand is used. If the mare was 13H, then she would be about 62 inches.


Not to be too picky, but your math is a little off... A 13 hand horse is about 52" tall (13*4=52).

But still a 14" difference which is a significant difference.


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## Little Wee Horse Farm (Aug 30, 2006)

Oh Shoot! Math never was my best subject. And it was early in the morning when I tried such a complex & difficult calculation (yeah, right!) Thanks for correcting me! Anyway, you get my point.



:


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## HGFarm (Aug 30, 2006)

It seems that a dystocia is from the foal being turned in the wrong position, thus making it unable to be born by natural methods alone. However, I am sure that from a very large foal, it may not be able to position correctly due to lack of room to turn? I lost my favorite full sized mare to this problem and I know of a couple of Mini breeders who have had to have foals cut up and removed that way. They were quite large.

With the issues we already have in Minis and problems foaling, I would certainly not want to increase the already high risk with something like this. I dont even want to go see the website.

As far as 'ponies' go- they are allowed to go up to 14 hands. I have seen MANY POA crosses- and Quarter ponies too that were between ponies and small full sized horses.

I think people really need to use common sense- I guess some folks were out eating at McDonald's when they passed that out and didnt get any.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 30, 2006)

HGFarm said:


> It seems that a dystocia is from the foal being turned in the wrong position, thus making it unable to be born by natural methods alone.


No, a foal in that position (no pun intended) will be in dystocia, yes, but that's not the only meaning. The term "dystocia" means "trouble giving birth", and can range from a malpositioned hoof all the way to a breech delivery or a fetatomy (cutting up of the fetus to facilitate removal). Even red bag is a dystocia. Its a VERY broad term.


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## Paintedgates (Aug 30, 2006)

hello, I dont really have much to say except, I just think the breeder should know the horses and be careful when breeding. Anyway to the point I am posting, I wrote to the lady ( all else go to the source to find the right info) I asked height of mare and how big did she think the foal was going to get this is what she wrote back. ""Mini me`s" dam is about 10 hands. I feel this little girl will get to about 12-13 hands. It is funny as the half brother to this filly was by a 29" mini jack and they where born the same size and wieght. The mini mule is about 10 hands." Some time peopel have small ponies and call them mini because they do not know better. The pony is small than their other horses so there for it is a mini. jmo


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## Tammie-C_Spots (Aug 30, 2006)

I would hope that the breeding was AI (artificial insemination). I'd be concerned about the stallions large size hurting a small mare.

Tammie


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## mini me sc (Aug 31, 2006)

Hello, for fear of being jumped on I would think that before anyone ever jumps to any conclusions they should ALWAYS go to the source before assuming anything.

I am the owner of the "miniature Andalusian" filly you are all talking about.

First, I do not do my own website and don`t regularly view it. I give my friend and the person who does my website any information. In regards to the "miniature" mare, Luminata, I will have to go out and measure her for the true height. She was bought from a Reg. Miniature breeder, a mistake when he turned a fresh cut gelding back out with his open mares. He sold her knowing she would be used in our program.

Second, before replying to my post please read, and maybe read again what I am writing. Not to be rude but sometimes people only read what they want to read and don`t take posts for what they are meant to be. This is natural. Now, NONE of you have to agree with what I am doing.

The breeder of Luminata is also on this site and he brought it to my attention that this is going on so I will not use his name but I will say he has sold Miniature horses all over the US and Canada. I love his little girls. However, I have also assisted him in delivering foals from smaller, 32" (?) mares that had been bred to a 30 inch and 32" stallions.

Bare with me as I am not a good typer and may "jump" around a bit. The main reason I am doing this cross is to produce Sport Horse ponies as TOO MANY children are "over horsed" and I have also seen TOO many over sized mini`s sold at auction because they where "too tall" for the breeders programs.

I do not encourage this at all, the auction thing or the breeding.

IN FACT I discourage ALL breeding with any sized horse! I believe before ANY stud be used he should be broke to ride and or drive.Meaning NO breeding with anything under 4 years of age unless under saddle to prove they have the conformation and dispostion with a gentle and strong work ethic and nature. Mini`s make lovely driving horses and I have bought at auction and resold AS driving, non-breeding animals, 9 or 10, not many. Mares, ALL mares should be vet checked to make sure they have a clean, well formed pelvic area and health uterus. I also believe that no mare should be breed without a clear cut plan for the resulting foal. To breed just to produce a foal is, to me, in MY opinion, a good reason NOT to breed. You don`t breed JUST to get that cute little baby ( even if it`s from a 18 hand mare), you breed with the purpose of producing a horse that will be a performance horse. Riding or Driving. I don`t breed for foals but for using, working HORSES. I have been breeding horses since 1979. Not long compared to some of you but long enough. I have had only trouble with one birth. A mare I had rescued, she was thin and tried foaling 2 days after she came home..before she could get vet checked. The foal was upside down and backwards. He was not cut out but was gently pushed forwards to cup the hind legs in place to gently pull. The only other horse in with that mare was a very eager shetland guy. Mare 16 hands, stud not even to my hips ( I`m 5`8).

Luminata`s first foal was by a 29" spotted jack. In the pix you can clearly see that there is no size difference. I think this filly was 2 lbs heaver tough and then this years colt was again, the same size as what the mini mule was when he was born. The mule has not grown since last year. Mini me has! Please also note, I do NOT approve of keeping mares in small areas and maybe that is why my mares, small ( maybe 9hands?) and large ( 17.2) have their foals with in 15 minutes, from tail up to placenta out. No help except for me taking video and of course tummy buttons and sex check. Our smallest pasture is 100 acres.

Would I suggest anyone cross a larger stud to a smaller mare? heck no! But like I said I wouldn`t suggest a person breed a larger mare to a smaller stud unless the mare was Completely checked out. NOTE: a mare, with little exercise, like a woman, will have a uterus that isn`t as firm or if you prefer, as fit as mares (ladies) that are used or get exercise.LOL. Sorry I don`t mean women "used". Have some humor here please. Hey, I have 4 kids. I popped them out but I`m always on the go. I also have mares that have been foaling for 15 years, every year, no missed dates, catch on one breeding. These mares are used for driving and riding, they get fat, yes but not "foal bellied". I am not a mini expert and don`t pretend to be. My mini friend admits that the mini`s are more prone to foaling problems as many breeders just try to breed smaller and smaller. It`s the same with breeders trying to breed bigger. You MUST have a plan, look at your genetics and any faults that can be passed on like dwarfism and OCD, parrot mouth, ewe neck, pigeon toe, etc, IS to be breed out, by just NOT Breeding.

Oh, although Mini-me might get to 12 hands ( I hope) her full brother might get to the mini mules height. The stud used ground collects so breeding is done using a roller and I don`t have to AI. Now you experienced breeders know what I mean by a roller so I don`t have to explain it.

Oh, sorry about saying Miniature, to me, they are not REGISTERED Miniature horses but "miniature horses"..kind of like saying your horse is QH or Appy because of build and spotting...I do not make reference to them being from registered stock although Lumi is from a reg. mare and her sire was a reg. "gelding".

As to the one ladies comments on out tribute to Sissy. Why persume the mare was dead in the photographs? The vet was right there, this was Sissy`s LAST foal and she and Merlin had a super close bond. How could I NOT let the baby and Sissy`s mate say good-bye to her? Sissy`s momma died when she was 3 weeks of age. She ran around in a pasture some 1000acres big until she was found as a 3 year old. They knew her as she was micro chipped when she was turned out with her dam and 30 other mares. We had a miniature ( see farm gallery) that looked like a "MINI-Sissy". I bought that mare, 28" as a pet, knowing she could die any time becasue of an enlarged heart, she was NEVER bred but as sweet as the day is long. She died,heart attack, last year. 6 years old. My son got her when they where both 3 years old. His Uncle died 2 weeks before she did, and Olie was with her as he was his Uncle. He cried, yes but said "Now Uncle Paul has Mystic to eat his carrots in haven so God wont give him heck!..he needs her more then me because I like carrots!" Maybe I sound uncaring to let my youngest son ( other kids are 18-14) "go" through this, but he knows she was sick, like his Uncle Paul ( who was, by the way 82..more of a third cousin to Olie) and he knew God had plans for them in heavens. "You just have to close your eyes and you can see them there beside you and always feel them with you in your heart."

FYI. GAIA< the daughter of Sissy and Merlin will not tease to her sire nor will he tease her. He`ll tease his other daughters for us but not Gaia. Merlin will also not tease through the fence our 29" mini mare ( she has papers somewhere, I lost them), nor in hand. I would not breed her to him either.

Sorry for this long but I would perfer to find out what everbody does with their little guys/gals and why/how did they get them so small? I`ve seen some that where "mini horses!" and some, just ugly! (cute ugly though<G>)


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 31, 2006)

The idea of breeding Ponies this way is foreign to me as we have so very many ponies here I just do not understand why you would risk this.

Would it not be cheaper and so much easier to just come her, buy up a container of very good, very cheap, Welsh, Dartmoor or New Forest ponies and take them home??

This is what the people all did at the very beginnings of Miniature Horse- came over, bought a container load of Shetland foals and took them home.

Again and again.

Look where they are 30 years later!!

Breeding as you are you get one foal a year.

I am not sure how many were in the container but I am sure it was more than one!!

I am really glad you came on here and have stated your case so well, but I am afraid I have to stand by what I have said.

This is not a cross I would ever do, I do not see the point (as I stated, it is harder for me as I am knee deep in really good 12 hand ponies!!)

I would not take the risk, even accepting that every foaling carries a risk.

My broodmares are never confined either- I think you may have got the wrong idea about Mini breeders, but it is easy enough to do, I know.

I really do not think any criticism was implied of Sissy's page- I went there and I too assumed the mare was dead but I thought nothing was wrong with that, I think the page is moving and well presented.





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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Aug 31, 2006)

Nevermind to the person who owns the pony and foal in question.. I am sorry you had to come here and "defend" your case


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## mini me sc (Aug 31, 2006)

That`s okay jane.

The purebred Andalusian is an exspensive horse. I do the cross for the market of Half Andalusians. As I said, I see too many kids, "over horsed", meaning they are put on horses Way to big for them to fully enjoy!

A child should be able to have a horse their size so they can bridle, saddle or harness by themselves, with adult super vision of course.

The people that bought this years mini andy, was an older couple who have always wanted an andalusian but couldn`t afford a purebred and also didn`t want a BIG partbred. Not everone wants welshes or shetlands or the reg. mini`s. I also breed Azteca`s (QH or paint cross), Spotted sport horse, Hispano-Arab ( Arabian cross) and draft crosses, along with my purebreds. The prices are from $1500 to $25000.

Breeding is not a hbby for me. We have NO off farm income so I have to be very selective in what and how I breed. I can not afford to have birthing problems or anything as that takes away from our income. So, I MUST be very careful. Right now with the price of cattle, the high cost of fual, low cost of grain bushels and the lack of hay due to drought, our horse operation is putting more into the farm then the mixed farming. We can not afford to work off farm as the work has to get done and with only the young one at home it is only bernie and I doing all the work. We crop, hay and pasture 1440acres (9 quarter sections), not much but a lot for only 2 operators.

I wsih all my horses where the size of these crosses until I was on their backs! Or after they where harnessed and hitched. When Lumy ( luminata) stands near Valvet it is the sight! She can walk right under her and not lower her head. I love it..and Lumi doesn`t get wet in the rain.

Sorry, it is a Cross bred. If it isn`t, what would it be? The object of this breeding is to produce half andalusians ( shown at the Andalusian shows) for small adults and children. I have a market for the ones 13-14 hands ( which I get from my Arabian mares) and under 12 hands, with I get form my "mini" mares. Mini-me, I have no idea as to how big she will or will not get. That is why she is still with us. She would be sold if I could gaurantee she would be over 13 hands, and she would be sold if I could gaurantee she`d be under 12. Right now, she is my son`s project. he is training her. She lets him pick up her feet and she "drives" for him. He doesn`t use rains, touchs her right "butt check" and says left and she goes left, same with the left check and right. Whoa is whoa, stop , don`t move. The kneeling is a bit harder but they are coming around. He uses no ropes nor has he ever had a halter on her. I`ve haltered her and have had her tied up for a few hours but that is it. When and IF we sell her she will make the best pony that has the "horse" gait as well, interestingly, she has a very fast walk or single foot. As far as I know both the Andy and the mini`s are not "gaited" horses but troters. The cross, along with my QH, Paint, Draft also seem to have this very fast "pace".


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## HGFarm (Aug 31, 2006)

I agree with Rabbitz- sorry. There are too many NICE medium sized ponies to cross to get good kids horses- and other breeds like Caspians, small Arabians, QH, etc... to cross rather than using Minis, which are so extremely small. And I have been breeding all sizes of horses for over 30 years


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## Shari (Aug 31, 2006)

I have a friend that is breeding some very beautiful and well temperament "sport ponies" and has for a number of years. They run from 12 to 14 hands tall. However, she does not use miniature horses at all, as there is no need too.

There is also the option of getting horses the kids will never out grow. Fjords, Haflingers, Fells, Dartmoors, Welsh, Connemara's and even Icelandic's, though the later is gaited, to name a few. All also very beautiful in their own ways.

Many compeat in driving, hunter jumper, cross country...just do about anything kids and adults might want to do. They are also very hardy with little foaling problems.

There are many ways to do things.


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## KanoasDestiny (Aug 31, 2006)

I just want to say that although I would never personally try this with a mini mare, I find it absolutely amazing that you have successfully managed it. I know that all breeds have come from somewhere and many different experiments. Best of luck on your future crosses, and that all births go accordingly.

Just a question...is there a reason why the foals turn out the way they do when the mare is small versus a smaller stud?


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## mondak (Aug 31, 2006)

Again I have to say that without these wonderful cross breeders that are willing to do crosses otherwise looked down upon there would be NO miniature breed. Yes, Rabbitfrizz, people did bring out sheltlands to downsize the mini lines, but what do ou think they breed them too??? If all they did was breed down the shetland line, wouldn't the mini be nothing more than a bred down shetland which would mean that there would be no need for registries like AMHA and AMHR because they all, in essence, could be registered with the ASPC...But that, as we all know, is not the case. There is a division between the two breeds because the miniature horse is the result of a CROSS between shetlands and larger horses, and over years and years breeders have downsized the breed to what we know today. Another thing to note is that at the founding of this breed there were many complications, countless dwarf horses resulted of the massive inbreeding that took place to scale down the breed, but like birthing issues the industry kept real hush hush about it.

Courtney


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## whimsical (Aug 31, 2006)

I have to say I applaud you coming on here to tell about your farm and about the crosses. I think it is interesting and may one day be widespread. You certainly sound to be well educated and well though out in your breeding program. Although I agree that the smaller minis (28-32") probably would increase your risk of birthing problems, I don't think that is what you are doing.

Again, I appreciate you coming to share your experience and point of view.


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## Minimor (Aug 31, 2006)

I for one have enjoyed "meeting" you here mini-me, & I've enjoyed hearing about your breeding program. I've always admired the Andalusians & would have liked to try a Morgan Andalusian cross. I have thought about a Mini/Morgan cross, but I'd be using a Morgan mare/Mini stallion which would probably result in a taller pony?

No criticism from me!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 31, 2006)

Random question... if you were trying to breed a pony by crossing a mini and a horse, why wouldn't you choose Andalusian mares and a mini stallion?


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## mini me sc (Aug 31, 2006)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Random question... if you were trying to breed a pony by crossing a mini and a horse, why wouldn't you choose Andalusian mares and a mini stallion?



A half "mini" in utero starts at $1000...and purebred andalusian starts at $5000(minium). Once on the ground a partbred would start at $12-1500 where as a purebred foal (Andalusian) would be from $6-25000. I could not afford to bred a purebred mare to anything BUT a purebred due to the fact I "HAVE" to make a living with the farm. Our farm has NO outside income unless you count outside mares being bred as off farm income! LOL. I rarely breed outside mares anymore.

Also, the foals would get taller then what the height is that I`m marketing for. A mini stud crossed on to a 15 or 16 hand mare would produce, or could produce a 14+ hand pony. I am marketing for the 12 hand range. As I said, to produce smaller mounts for children to show in the Class A Andalusian shows as well as "breed" out the "pony" chopy" gait.


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## 2minis (Aug 31, 2006)

on the subject of cross breeding, I've often wondered why no one is breeding either arabs or andys to the larger modern shetlands to get a really nice saddleseat pony. If the andy or arab is 15h, and the modern is one of the larger ones (maybe around 13+), it seems like you could tame down some of that hot hackney blood, and get a gorgeous action and larger bone to make a more rideable pony. Now, I am NOT in anyway a breeder, and I'm sure I will be enlightened by those who are (which is welcomed, by the way- how else do we learn?), as to the portential pros and cons of a cross like this.


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## Shari (Aug 31, 2006)

humm..."pony's choppy gait".

Have yet to experience that with either the Icelandic or Fjords.

My Fjord mare has a long sweeping stride and neither have choppy gaits at all. More on the style of a Warm blood in movement.


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## Shari (Aug 31, 2006)

Majority of the "miniature" horses are pure and simple, Shetland ponies. There is no shame in that.

Most miniature horses are just Original Shetland ponys marketed as Miniature horses. I know my mini's pedigree goes all the way back to Dell Tera and when they brought over Shetland ponies from the Islands.

They were originally small.

To get refinement,, just cross the most refine ones to each other and over the many years, they have become what they are now.

It is a marketing tactic.

Ie ... what would sell better and get more money... calling the same animal....

A.) a Shetland pony....

or

B.) an rare mini horse.



mondak said:


> Again I have to say that without these wonderful cross breeders that are willing to do crosses otherwise looked down upon there would be NO miniature breed. Yes, Rabbitfrizz, people did bring out sheltlands to downsize the mini lines, but what do ou think they breed them too??? If all they did was breed down the shetland line, wouldn't the mini be nothing more than a bred down shetland which would mean that there would be no need for registries like AMHA and AMHR because they all, in essence, could be registered with the ASPC...But that, as we all know, is not the case. There is a division between the two breeds because the miniature horse is the result of a CROSS between shetlands and larger horses, and over years and years breeders have downsized the breed to what we know today. Another thing to note is that at the founding of this breed there were many complications, countless dwarf horses resulted of the massive inbreeding that took place to scale down the breed, but like birthing issues the industry kept real hush hush about it.
> 
> Courtney


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 1, 2006)

I crossed my Arab mare with a 33" Mini stallion by natural (but aided) breeding and got a 12.2hh gelding that drove like a full size horse.

I did the cross with a Dartmoor mare and a Welsh sec B mare and got varied heights depending on the background of the horse.

I do not know of any actual documented proof of any "Big Horse" blood in Minis at all- I am happy to be proven wrong but my understanding is that they are selectively bred form small European Shetlands, American Shetlands and some Appies of unknown or unproven blood and of course some Falabellas- whose breeding again is mainly Shetland, but again, bred most selectively.

Miniatures are not yet a breed, they are a height registration, we tend to forget that, I think.

I have to say that I would not use a Mini mare for this project- I do understand and applaud the "homework" you have done and I accept that you have had no problems it is merely that if you wish ot produce a crossbred pony I would have thought there were better and less troublesome potentially, breeds to use.

I also appreciate the fact that this is not a hobby for you- I think we all, myself included- do tend to forget that this can be the case.

PLEASE stick around as your insight is obviously going to be valuable, as well as your experience.


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