# Closed wheel carts



## Country Lady (Apr 3, 2011)

Hello,

I am looking for a show cart and have found closed and open wheels, can someone explain the difference. Which do you prefer?

Thanks


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## Carolyn R (Apr 3, 2011)

An open wheeled cart is a wheel that has no metal bars over the outside of the wheel. Usually the wheels are a larger wheel.

A closed wheeled cart is a cart with a metal bar or bars from the frame to the wheels center. The thought is that this will help them deflect one another to help prevent a tangled mess if two carts should brush one another or colide.

*You can also get an open wheeled cart with the larger wheels and get after market wheel gaurds. I prefer this because I personally love the look of the larger wheels.* WORD OR CAUTION!!!!!!!

A cart that has been manufactured with closed wheels can not accomodate larger wheels, they will not fit under the "top rim" or bend on the frame.

A closed 24" wheel cart that has been manufactured with closed wheels will sit too high for an a sized mini, the shafts/seat set up are arranged in a manor that place the seat and shafts about 4-5 inches higher than an open wheeled cart. You can place smaller wheels on the cart but it will only reduce the height by half the difference...24 inch wheels down to 20 inch wheels, 4 inches difference, will only reduce the height by 2 inches).

Here is a link to a site that sells jeralds. The first photo is a closed wheel cart the one below that is an open wheeled cart.

My link


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 3, 2011)

Open wheel:





Closed wheel:





Note the bars in front and over the top of the wheels. That's the difference.


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## Sue_C. (Apr 4, 2011)

But, as the bar over the top isn't what really "makes" a closed wheel...you could simply modify an open wheeled cart with a manufactured "bar" that goes from axle to cart, the same as in the second photo. That is what I had done with a couple of my carts, and it not only works well; you get the "best of both worlds" by having a larger wheel that is "closed" too.

This picture shows what Hilary did when making this cart...the wheel can easily be switched to a larger one, but the bar from axle to cart is what "closes" the wheel, which makes it safer, and unable to get tangled with another wheel in the roadster classes, which is where the closed wheels is required.


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## RhineStone (Apr 4, 2011)

Sue_C. said:


> and unable to get tangled with another wheel in the roadster classes, which is where the closed wheels is required.


Is this really a problem?



Why would you breeze another turnout that closely?

Myrna


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## Sue_C. (Apr 4, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Is this really a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> Why would you breeze another turnout that closely?Myrna


I don't, and it hasn't been a problem for me personally, but I HAVE read of such things right here on LB, so it does happen. Some of the drivers, from what I have read, can be downright "ugly" in those classes. Amazing what someone will do to win a ribbon...I have even heard of people reaching out and whipping competitors horses with their whips for heaven's sake.

Back to the closed wheel itself...I suppose it is a "hangover" from the racing carts the Standardbreds are hitched to...they too have "closed" wheels. It also helps work in the same way as a brush guard when in cones and marathon as well, so can suit more than one purpose.


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## RhineStone (Apr 4, 2011)

Sue_C. said:


> Some of the drivers, from what I have read, can be downright "ugly" in those classes. Amazing what someone will do to win a ribbon...I have even heard of people reaching out and whipping competitors horses with their whips for heaven's sake.
> 
> It also helps work in the same way as a brush guard when in cones and marathon as well, so can suit more than one purpose.


Let me tell you...that would NEVER be tolerated in the carriage ring. I don't know if we have specific rules against such behavior but my guess is that not only would you not place, but the TD would launch you from the show grounds if you were ever caught doing that! For crying out loud, you can be excused from the grounds for removing the bridle while the horse is still put to the cart! Safety is #1, and messing with someone else's horse is totally against safety!

Yes, having a big horse marathon vehicle with wheels that are under the frame, that is very helpful in the marathon.

Myrna


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## Sandee (Apr 4, 2011)

I believe that this rule started back about 6 or so years ago. There was some discussion about safety and AMHR was being deluged with "we don't want people hurt" cries so they made a rule to have the wheel "covered". If you've never watched the 20 + sulkies in the roadster class at Nationals, it is a real eye opener. When they call for the field to reverse "at the trot", it looks more like fruit basket upset played with carts, horses, and people. A lot of narrow misses going on there. Most of the time it is only the eye of the beholder that sees those misses as the drivers and horses seem to take it all in stride and no one gets frustrated or upset.


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## RhineStone (Apr 4, 2011)

Sandee said:


> When they call for the field to reverse "at the trot", it looks more like fruit basket upset played with carts, horses, and people.


Really?



Wow! That is why we reverse on the diagonal, or the judge will call a reverse on the rail at a walk if there aren't too many turnouts in the ring. Sometimes the VSEs will reverse at a trot, but always on the diagonal. The judge uses the diagonal as an inspection, too.

Myrna


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## Sue_C. (Apr 4, 2011)

> Let me tell you...that would NEVER be tolerated in the carriage ring. I don't know if we have specific rules against such behavior but my guess is that not only would you not place, but the TD would launch you from the show grounds if you were ever caught doing that! For crying out loud, you can be excused from the grounds for removing the bridle while the horse is still put to the cart! Safety is #1, and messing with someone else's horse is totally against safety!Yes, having a big horse marathon vehicle with wheels that are under the frame, that is very helpful in the marathon.
> 
> Myrna


It CERTAINLY WOULDN'T, and it makes me sooo glad that we show according to Equine Canada rules, which are very similar to your ADS rules. Were I in an area that had sanctioned miniature horse shows where this type of driving were acceptable, I would prefer to stay home, thank you very much.



> Sandee, on 04 April 2011 - 07:39 PM, said:When they call for the field to reverse "at the trot", it looks more like fruit basket upset played with carts, horses, and people.
> 
> Really? Wow! That is why we reverse on the diagonal, or the judge will call a reverse on the rail at a walk if there aren't too many turnouts in the ring. Sometimes the VSEs will reverse at a trot, but always on the diagonal. The judge uses the diagonal as an inspection, too.


Exactly, such a very SMALL THING for a judge to know the proper rules and etiquette of any PROPERLY driven show ring.


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## Sandee (Apr 5, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Just to be clear, Roadster is the only class that does this particular (or should I say peculiar) movement.


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## Katiean (Apr 5, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Is this really a problem?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Some people want to win so badly that they will do ANYTHING to win. If that means taking you out, they will do it. However this is not my style. If you win I am happy for you. If I win that is really fun. I do not like dirty drivers. It is a horse show not a horse race.


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## Kendra (Apr 5, 2011)

We're talking extreme situations here - and I think an incident involving someone using their whip on another horse says a lot more about the individual than it does show ring driving in general. I've been driving in AMHA shows for 22 years and I've never seen anything worse than one driver cutting off another, intentional or otherwise - after all, sometimes horses do have a mind of their own!

Just for clarity - the only time closed wheel carts are required are in AMHR Roadster classes. AMHA allows open wheels, and I've never seen any drivers hook their wheels together. Of course AMHA also splits their driving classes if there are too many entries to show safely and fairly in the arena size - I'm not sure that AMHR does the same. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about that - I've never shown at an AMHR show.)


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## Sandee (Apr 5, 2011)

Kendra said:


> We're talking extreme situations here - and I think an incident involving someone using their whip on another horse says a lot more about the individual than it does show ring driving in general. I've been driving in AMHA shows for 22 years and I've never seen anything worse than one driver cutting off another, intentional or otherwise - after all, sometimes horses do have a mind of their own!
> 
> Just for clarity - the only time closed wheel carts are required are in AMHR Roadster classes. AMHA allows open wheels, and I've never seen any drivers hook their wheels together. Of course AMHA also splits their driving classes if there are too many entries to show safely and fairly in the arena size - I'm not sure that AMHR does the same. (Please correct me if I'm wrong about that - I've never shown at an AMHR show.)


I'm not sure on the rules for AMHR but they do split classes at Nationals. In fact the most popular class, Country Pleasure under, has been known to have 3 splits with about 20 in the class and the top 7 or so going into the finals. But in the Roadster a class of 20 + is not unusual and seldom are their splits. I don't know the whys of it other than everyone just gets a real big kick out of seeing the fast pace and high energy needed for this class.

Editted to say: Yep, I'm one of those "people". Just started showing Roadster last year and find it fasinating.


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## midnight star stables (Apr 6, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Really?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



To defend my beloved breed shows



, I have to point out that the roadster class is supposed to be reverse on the diagonal! There is no walking in a roadster class, but all other driving classes do call for a reverse on the rail at a walk. I have no clue as to why some (many?) don't reverse on the diagonal as a unit, but I know I always try to. I think that many exhibitors are green to the rules of the ring, and that some exhibitors are green to common sense too!






There are *some* who are "out to win" and down right unsafe, but they are "aggressive" in all classes. I try my best to know who they are and stay away from them. Touch wood, I never been in or seen a driving ring accident. Accidents and mistakes happen, and there will always be a few bad apples... Education and safety should take priority to a ribbon. But hey, that's my two cents.


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## ruffian (Apr 6, 2011)

I also am new to Roadster and it's a blast. But I've been driving for 20+ years, and seldom seen anybody deliberately interfere with another horse/driver. But accidents can happen. Two years ago at a local show I was in the middle of a 3 wide group in a class of about 15. I was almost even with the outside horse, and the inside (towards center ring) horse was about half length behind me. The outside horse spooked at something outside the ring, and dove in towards me, which sent my horse toward center ring and the inside horse. Luckily everybody missed everybody but it could have been bad. Any extra little "safety" equipment IMO is great.

I don't know why all driving classes don't reverse on the diagonal. At Nats 10 or so years ago there were over 40 in the CP driving class, and we reversed at the trot on the diag at both ends, and it was beautiful to see. Worked like a charm. The whole crowd cheered as everybody lined back up on the rail smoothly. I don't like to reverse on the rail. Hard to see who's coming up behind you even at a walk.


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## RhineStone (Apr 6, 2011)

At carriage shows, the ring steward stands in one corner and directs the first turnout diagonally across the arena. That way, everyone uses the same corner. It is announced to reverse at the ring steward. They usually also announce that the last horses may trot to catch up so that we don't have horses going in two different directions at the same time. If that does so happen with a full division, the ring steward either stops the already reversed turnouts or moves in towards the center so that the already reversed turnouts go behind the ring steward.

Myrna


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## Margo_C-T (Apr 6, 2011)

I've seen dangerous driving/drivers in Roadster as far back as AMHA Nationals in the early '90s (OK City).I also loved to compete in Roadster; more than once I experienced scary driving by other competitors in the same ring. It's been a few years now; back then, I wouldn't say it was the majority...and IMPO, it was sometimes due to drivers who simply did not have a CLUE about proper ring etiquette. Didn't mean they weren't dangerous to themselves and others, though.

IMO, based on personal observation, I believe there is all too frequently a lack of knowledge of proper ring/driving etiquette within the Miniature horse breed ring...at least, the AMHA one(and such was also so in the only AMHR show I ever entered/attended, in CO sometime back.)It's not 'just' in Roadster; it's just more dangerous in a crowded, fast-moving Roadster ring.

For example...one should not be 'off the rail' except to (properly) pass, but two and three-deep is too often seen, sometimes to the extent that ring stewards/judges are literally in some danger of being run over. Yes, sometimes classes are too crowded, and splits not made when they should be, increasing the likelihood of this improper and potentially dangerous practice; time for thoughtful competitors to complain to management if this occurs.(Sadly, though, I fear that nowadays, more and more, such 'bad' driving is deliberate...all in the 'win-at-all-costs' atmosphere all too pervasive in these times.)

Breed rail classes, too,should be reversed on the diagonal,as notified by the announcer and directed by a competent ring steward, as Myrna described; safety is one paramount reason. When this is not done, and it is allowed to be just a sort of 'every man for himself(or woman for herself'! approach, I would again look to the management, and sugges that competitors(whose money it is, after all, that enables the show) step up to request changes to a proper approach. It just takes education.

Margo


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## Carriage (Apr 7, 2011)

What you've said Margo is precisely what I've seen going back pre Reno Nationals. Helter skelter best described what I saw, not an orderly transition. I did think it a good idea to have a closed wheel system if this was how they were going to operate.

Well said imo Margo

Bb


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## Sandee (Apr 7, 2011)

IMO the reason most of the classes, other than Roadster, don't reverse on the diagonal is that with the minis it takes forever in a large arena (like Nationals) for the "parade" to end. It's really a time thing. Most of the time the arena is not that crowded and the call will be to "walk" and then they ask for "reverse on the rail". Not a big thing is everyone is aware of what's going on around them - as they should be - just like driving a car.


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## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

And depending on how many are in a carriage show, they might have the VSEs reverse on the rail as well, but always at a walk. I have reversed on the diagonal at a trot with VSEs, though. With the big horses, anything other than reversing on the diagonal (other than a class of just a couple) is a mess.

Myrna


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