# ASPC/AMHR Member/Non-Member/Transfer Fee's



## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Good Day All,

Been following the thread about registering on application with the ASPC/AMHR and the problems folks are facing with people getting out of the Miniatures and/or Shetlands which is causing some problems with transferring horses.

I have been doing some research (I like facts) with other equine associations and their fee’s. Below are some that I have collected in the past twenty-four hours. If you belong to another association that is not listed, please email me with the information and I’ll be happy to update my post and add it to my list that I have compiled.

American Quarter Horse Association:

Membership Fee:

Regular Membership…. $40.00

Amateur Membership… $45.00

Youth Membership…… $15.00

To Transfer Horses Registration applicable fees:

Member………..$15.00

Non-Member…..$55.00

Morgan Horse Association:

General Membership Fee……$70.00

Youth Membership Fee……...$15.00

No mention of transfer fee’s

Palomino Horse Association:

Membership Fee…..$30.00

Membership Fee + 1 Horse Registered……$75.00

Additional Horses to be Registered……..$35.00

Transfer Fee……$20.00

Non-Member Transfer Fee…..$45.00

Appaloosa Horse Association:

Membership Fees:

Individual……..$55.00

Couple………. $80.00

Family……. $95.00

Youth……. $10.00 if purchased separate from family

Youth one time fee till 18 years of age…..$75.00

Transfer of Ownership (BUYER must be the member)…. $15.00 Non-Members N/A

Gypsy Vainer Horse Society:

General Membership-one vote…. $80.00

Associate Membership-non voting…. $50.00

Lifetime Membership-one vote…. $750.00

Youth Membership-non voting…$25.00

Transfer Fee…. $25-after 60 days add an additional $25 late fee

No mention of Non-Member Fee’s

American Miniature Horse Association:

US Only addressed here:

New Regular Membership Fee…..$75.00

Regular Membership Renewal Fee…. $65.00

3rd Member or Subsequent in Household (must reside at same address)…..$30.00

Associate Membership (Non-Miniature Horse Owners Only)…$65.00

Youth Membership…..$10.00

Transfer Fee within 6 months…..$15.00

Transfer Fee, after 6 months…. $25.00

No Non-Member Transfer Fee

Pinto Horse Association:

Membership....$35.00

Magazine......$25.00

Register Weanlings....$20.00 up to $65.00 for a adult horse

$50 extra for Non-Member to register

Transfer Fee for Member.....$20.00

Transfer Fee for Non-Member...$60.00

Stallion Report.....$10.00

American Paint Horse Association:

Old Fee’s till January 1, 2010:

1 Yr. Membership…. $35.00

3 Yr. Membership…$75.00

5 Yr. Membership…$125.00

Family and/or Farm Membership…$35.00 (entire family in or out of household)

Lifetime Membership…$400

Amateur Fee…$15.00

Youth Membership…$15.00

Youth Term till 19 yrs of age…$100.00, then the $100 can count towards a Senior Lifetime membership.

Transfer Fee for Members…$15.00

Transfer Fee for Non-members…. $60.00

New Fee’s starting January 1, 2010:

1 Yr. Membership…. $40.00

3 Yr. Membership…$90.00

5 Yr, Membership…$150.00

Lifetime Membership…. $500.00

Family and/or Farm Membership…$40.00 (entire family in or out of household)

Amateur Fee…. $15.00

Youth Membership…$20.00

No Increase in Youth Term

Transfer Fee for Members…$15.00

Transfer Fee for Non-members…. $60.00

In regards to the ASPC/AMHR their fees and work order form: I have been a member of this association since May 1996. I’m pretty much a pack rat when it come to documentation (blame it on my profession/job as I have to keep good records). Anyway, I have original paperwork back to when I joined the Registry. I looked over the work order form from 1996, I have one from 2001, and the new one for 2008 and forward. In the previous work order forms from 1996 to 2007 they all read the same. Cost of membership was $45 which allowed an Adult member to do registry work which included the official publication “The Journal”. Second member in household (no Journal) was $15 and a Youth membership till they were 18 were $10. We DID NOT have any Non-membership fee’s to those that didn’t want to join the Registry or do any transfer of horse’s registration papers. They had to be a member to do any and all Registry work. During that time I paid the following fees, excluding any registering of horses:

1 Adult membership for $45.00

2 Second member of household $30.00

2 Amateur cards $10.00

Studbook on line $50.00

Total………. $135.00

Then, the BOD decided to raise our membership fees for the year 2008. Again, here is what I paid in November 2007 for my 2008 dues:

1 Adult membership for $65.00

3 Second members in household $60.00

2 Amateur card $10.00

Studbook on line 50.00

Total…………$185.00

I paid the exact same membership renewal fees November 2008 for my 2009 membership. Unless the BOD decides to do something different for 2010, my dues will remain the same again.

What would “I” as a member of the ASPC/AMHR like to see in regards to membership fees and so forth? Here is what “I” think would work, bring back members who left because of high fee’s and allow those that don’t want to be members a way to do paperwork. It would be a win, win situation for all. I know the Registry must have lost close to 1000 members in the past two years. If you just use the old membership fee of $45.00 that was lost revenue of $45,000.00 right up front. Not to mention lost revenue for registrations or updating any registration papers from temporary to permanent or if a member just wanted to pay the $10 to update old type registration papers to the new ones with the pictures. The Registry can’t keep loosing this type of revenue. No businesses can and stay in business very long.

After reviewing some of the above registries and their fee schedules, these are my recommendations for new fees that I can live with and still be supportive of our Registry…again a win, win situation for all:

ASPC/AMHR Registry Schedule of Fee’s:

Membership Fee’s-Adult with 1 voting right…..$35.00 (No Journal)

Membership Fee’s-Adult with 1 voting right…$50.00 (with Journal)

Second, Third, Fourth etc. Member with 1 voting right…. $20.00

Youth Membership, 0-18 yrs of Age…..$15.00 (I do think youth needs to pay a membership to participate and apply for any and all youth awards)

Amateur Membership……..$15.00

Family and/or Farm Membership……$75.00- Entire Family in/out of household, must list each person under Farm name and each would receive (1) voting right each person must be listed, includes (1) Journal.

Example: Your Choice Farm, John Boy, Susie Q Boy, Betty Jo Boy, Bobby Jo Boy

Trainer/Training Facility Membership with (1) voting right (with Journal)…. $75.00

Trainer and their facility will register what they train for, Halter or Performance or Both with a Trainer page set up on club’s website listing trainers by areas.

Transfer Fee Members….up to 6 months from date of sale……$15.00

Transfer Fee Members…after 6 months from date of sale……. $25.00

Non-Member Transfer Fee…up to 6 months from date of sale……$40.00

Non-Member Transfer Fee…after 6 months from date of sale……. $50.00

Again, this is subjective and for you to think about. Give some constructive feedback, don’t get negative and let’s look at this together. We all need to come to an agreement as to what we can live with and for the association to stay viable.

Thank you for allowing me to lay this out to you for thought and consideration and for those board members who lurk to consider and add your thoughts as well. I do think as a membership we can ALL come up with something that is workable and keep our Registry viable and strong.

Karen


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## Horse Feathers (Oct 13, 2009)

Karen S said:


> After reviewing some of the above registries and their fee schedules, these are my recommendations for new fees that I can live with and still be supportive of our Registry…again a win, win situation for all:
> ASPC/AMHR Registry Schedule of Fee's:
> 
> Membership Fee's-Adult with 1 voting right…..$35.00 (No Journal)
> ...


I think this is a great idea and with the non-member transfer fee being close to the member fee would encourage more people to join.


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## Sunny (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Karen. I think your suggestions are excellent, and should stand as written.

If the Registry has indeed lost as many members as you think (1,000 over the last couple of years?!), then we/they certainly do need to look at a restructuring of the fee schedule. Let's just suppose that we all agree with your suggestions here.... how would you go about implementing them? Who actually decides on the fees?


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## kaykay (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Karen

My only problem is that if you sell memberships with no Journal how do those members get notified of changes?? I just worry it would lead to lawsuits if a rule changes and a member doesnt know about goes through and wham a lawsuit. I think its even in the bylaws isnt it that all notifications to members will be done through the Journal? If the registry had to do a separate newsletter to inform members that do not get the Journal then its self defeating.

Just a thought!

Kay


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## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Judy,

I would hope that those board members who visit here would take it, get with those board members who hasn't seen it, review it and then present it to those members at Convention for their consideration. If it was approved quickly, then I see no reason why it couldn't be put into place for the 2010 year.

Karen


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## Miniv (Oct 13, 2009)

After just one read-through, I agree with Judy/Sunny. It makes sense overall......I do want to ask about the reasoning behind offering membership without the Journal?

I can see the Board being interested in this.


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## Horse Feathers (Oct 13, 2009)

The reasons I see you would not want a Journal are

1. Register last foals before I quit raising minis

2. Bought a couple of minis for pets and like having them in my name

Thats all I can think of right now


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## Tatonkas Dream (Oct 13, 2009)

Thanks for posting the info

I purchased my first mini in 2006 so am very new to all of this, prior full size horses throughout my life only one was registered. In that time frame have purchased 7 registered miniatures, 4 of these had some sort of ‘issue’ with paperwork

For the most part this was my first year for homebred babies and subsequentially deciding that I needed to sell some.

I have sold 4 horses since the beginning of the year, 2 to the same family, and none of the 3 families care to join to transfer a horse or 2... I find it disheartening, I would like to think that maybe the 1st transfer fee could be a flat rate member or not so that some of the papered horses who end up being in a pet home now but over the life of the mini the next person may very well want the paperwork to be current and up to date.

The combination of my own experiences of having some sort of issue with paperwork and now seeing new to mini families not want to spend the membership fee to transfer one horse leads me to believe that the problem of lost pedigree/history etc is only going to get worse if a simple transfer requires a membership…

I am not sure what the answers are but look forward to watching the thread to see peoples thoughts that have been involved with the miniature horse for far longer than I have.

On the other thread I also read about you can do the transfer for them (the new owners), how do you go about that... I did not know of this option so would like to be able to try and utilize it in the future if possible.


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## End Level Farms (Oct 13, 2009)

I think this is an extremely interesting topic.

In quarter horse and paint the journals are optional.

If members choose to not purchase the membership with the journal changes to anything are their responsibility to find out.

Notices can easily be put on the web page for those that do not receive the journal.

I personally have 6 horses in my backyard at the moment all different registries that ALL require a membership to transfer the horse. All 6 registries are in US Dollars and start at $50 dollars membership and go up from there. AMHR for me is $76 US. PLUS the fees plus the pictures plus plus plus.

Things dont have to be as hard as they are to join or transfer or other.


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## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Miniv,

There has been discussion in the past from some members who DO NOT want a Journal but wanted a membership.

Kay, as far as being notified....we all know the club's website is also there and pretty much is updated as soon as it can...it may need to have someone on the Website committe assigned to do the updates more frequently than usual.

How many folks out of our membership would use the $35 membership fee? we won't know until that time comes. If lets say more than 50 % then I would suggest a bi/monthly letter mailed the same time as the "Journal" just to those members who selected that type of membership so they would be in the loop so to speak.

Karen


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## Miniv (Oct 13, 2009)

Horse Feathers said:


> The reasons I see you would not want a Journal are1. Register last foals before I quit raising minis
> 
> 2. Bought a couple of minis for pets and like having them in my name
> 
> Thats all I can think of right now



Both of those are valid examples........ And to cover what Kay said, when a person chooses not to take the journal they should probably check a box (or something) on the application, indicating that they realize they won't receive the Journal, and that they are aware it's a primary source for receiving important rule changes and registration information....... (How about that?)


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## Irish Hills Farm (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Karen,

Just a quick question. Why are you wanting to raise the amateur member ship fee 200% but want to reduce the general membership fee?


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## Sue_C. (Oct 13, 2009)

I would definately select the "do not take Journal" option myself. There are other ways for the Registry to get information to members without having to mail that big heavy picture-book. I know...I know...there is lots of info too for those who show sanctioned events, but to me here, it is strictly a "coffee table book", full of pretty pictures.

The AMHA managed to get information to us for years before making the MHW part and parcel of their membership, which put their fees up significantly. (And IMHO, was very likely largely responsible for putting the Miniature Horse Voice out of publication.)





When our AMHA fees rose, and included the MHW, I wrote a letter to the board, asking for the option of paying a different fee and not recive the magazine, which was read at the next meeting but the letter I received from them was a "sorry you feel that way, but you will still have to pay the full amount, and receive the MHW". I wish they too would look into this as a viable option now; I am sure it would help a lot of people, especially those of us out of the US, as those fees are pretty high.


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## mydaddysjag (Oct 13, 2009)

I agree with everything, except I think the ammy fee should be $10, and the youth fee $10

To be honest, when I came over from big horses, I was pretty surprised to find that the membership fee for a smaller registry cost so much more than my AQHA membership, and AQHA members get all sorts of discounts and benefits, and in general, do more advertising etc.


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## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Sheryl,

The current amateur fee I feel is way too low at $5.00. I'm just bringing it up to be close to the other registries, plus, if it every came down that the amateur program must be sustained on the amateur fee's, the $5 wouldn't even cover the cost of what my budget is for the year. I like giving back to all of the Amateurs, right now we have 1672 amateurs @ $5 each that is $8360 in revenue. I spend more than that with all of the awards that are given from the local shows, Congress, AMHR Nationals, End of Year Awards, Supreme Amateur, the Animal Companion and Animal Excellence program.

Karen


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## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi mydaddysjag,

In answer to your youth fee....the youth fee use to be $10 until the board disolved it a couple of years ago. I was also on the youth committee until I was appointed as chair of the amateur's. Again, if the youth budget is cut and they had to be sustained on their youth fee's (which are only paid one time until they turn 18) tell me how far that money would run? Not very far, and with the number of awards and prizes they give away, the $10 wouldn't even touch it.

Karen


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 13, 2009)

I want to say thank you for all of this information that you had presented and I agree 100% on everything. I think it would lead a step in the right direction.

I don't see a problem raising the amateur fees, As amateurs you could win some money back and get cool prizes, you need to back the amateur program up.

I want to know where does it say you have to send out newsletters to all members with new information? Why does it have to be the Journal? They have done it in the past if new notices need to be given to members then send in a piece of paper in the mail. Also AMHR needs to get better with todays technology. There website IMO does not look that much shall we say official.

Anyways love the ideas, thank you.


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## Lewella (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm going to put it bluntly - if you make The Journal optional you will likely kill the publication. Advertising is already down even though it is reasonable to advertise and advertising rates have not been raised in several years. If you reduce circulation how much futher will advertising drop? Less advertising means less editorial, articles, and show results. To qualify to mail at the current rate The Journal needs to have a 6/4 ratio - 6 pages of advertising for each 4 pages of other content. Less advertising means fewer columns, fewer show results, less industry news, less sale reports, less obituaries, etc. Changing it from an advertising supported newsletter to a subscription magazine could have postal, printing, and tax ramifications also.

Another point, the ASPC/AMHR website is not handled in house. Some pages can be updated in house but the web design company has to update most of the content. Research would have to be done into expense of updating content more regularly, possibly adding pages and archiving information (more web space and bandwidth), plus a print newsletter would still need to be mailed (we do have many members without email including our President!) and we would need to know the cost for that. I personally doubt that making The Journal separate from membership would have any significant cost saving.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 13, 2009)

Why is advertising so low? Thats the question people must ask when it comes to the Journal. Honestly the people that are really into the registry will still get the Journal. People who just do it for fun and just trying to get into it, etc...they are going to try to avoid paying that huge membership fee and that just leads to more unregistered horses and no new members. I rather have more members.

Too be honest tho the Journal is starting to look boring and its pretty sad but with no advertisement theres no help.


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## mydaddysjag (Oct 13, 2009)

Wait, the youth did not have to pay a youth fee yearly? I know when I was an AQHA member the youth fee was paid yearly. Is there something that could be done so that youth and amateurs had to pay into the payback programs if they wanted to participate? I know at local saddle clubs in my area you can show as a youth all you want, but if you want included in year end awards, you must fund raise or pay towards the year end awards. I don't know how many amateurs there are in AMHR, but what percentage are getting year end awards?

Honestly, if you think about it, why should "paulas" kid have to pay for "suzys" daughters year end award, when "paulas" daughter does not even compete for that award.

Same goes to say that I buy an ammy card every year, some years do not show, some only show 1 or 2 shows, and I dont compete for any awards, but Im still paying towards awards I dont compete for in the first place.

I know it would be a head ache to set up that way, but in the long run it would be the fair way...


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 13, 2009)

I guess I can not see the logic in lowering fees. I do not feel our fees are outragous. The loss of income there would need to be made up somewhere and really that leaves ou registration and transfer fees. That in the end would cost many much more then the 15 bucks proposed here in savings on membership fees.

As far as raising the ammy fee /youth fee well I think that to is self defeating the majority of our members do not show all the time they might do an occasional show. The majority are not going to pay extra. I can speak for myself I would not. For 5 bucks I would think why not so I can show in a ammy class today I would not pay more for the one show I might choose to show ammy in.

Why in these economic times would we make it more challenging for the youth to show? Lets be real here very few kids show on a show circuit and even fewer make it to Nationals or Congressmany might do one or two local shows a year if they are lucky

The majority of our members simply enjoy their little horses. To go on the fact that "IF" the ammy program or youth programs had to be self sufficent doesnt fly either.. when and if that ever takes place then it can be factored into the equation but for now that is not the case

I would much prefer to pay current prices add a non memeber fee and call it good rather then increase prices across the board to make up for any lost revenue.

If anything is going to change I feel it should be the futurity program. I think the amount people pay is just silly hardly a "bet" on your breeding program but that is JMO and another discussion for another day.


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## Annabellarose (Oct 13, 2009)

As a member of both AMHA and AMHR I do not have a problem with being responsible for myself (what a concept!) to know the rules when I show and if I do not know the rules I do not have a problem with being responsible for learning the rules via the association's/registry's website and/or by ordering and/or by having to pay for an official rule book. Other associations and registries that I have belonged to handled it like that, that is what I was used to before leaping into the Miniature Horse world with both feet before doing my homework!




If you show (now) it is your responsibility to know the rules whether you got an update, or a magazine, or whatever. You can't tell the ring steward that excuses you for a rule violation, "I didn't know the rule had changed because I didn't get that month's magazine." LOL


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## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi mydaddysjag,

Yes the Youth membership was only paid once until the youth was 18 (I know been there done that with my daughter till she aged out of the youth). For her $10 for five years (13-18) she got to participate and won many of the youth awards, was your AMHR Queen in 1998 and your Registry Queen in 2001. $10 for a one time fee back then still didn't go very far. If you'll look the $15 would have to be paid yearly, just like the rest of the memberships. If a youth doesn't want to compete in the youth classes or the youth programs, then they would have to buy a regular membership. Which one would you choose? I'm pretty sure most families would be more than willing to pay the $15 per youth instead of $35 or $50 memberships. Even if there were 200 kids at mini nationals and you only charged them $10, that's $2000. Tell me how far that money would go towards their awards. The youth budget is over ten times that.

You might not think your $5.00 amateur fee goes very far, but again, everytime you enter into an Amateur class at your favorite show, chances are that show is already participating in the Triple A Amateur High Point program for that show. You are automatically entered into the local show awards...let's say you win the overall high point amateur in the miniature division....you'll receive a letter of congrats from me, signed by me, you'll receive a nice certificate that you can frame, plus a voucher for your choice of awards. Those awards are not cheap and they are something every amateur can keep and use. So for your $5.00 you just got more bang for your buck. What if you won one of the awards at Mini Nationals....better yet, the End of the Year....or the grand prize of them all....Supreme Amateur...in my book, no matter what the fee's are...you are getting back what you put in. Then there is the Amateur Companion/Amateur Excellence program for those amateurs that don't show, but do other things with their horses. Your current amateur membership entitles you to those awards as well. Those folks can earn a jacket just like the Supreme Amateurs. I do have something for everyone, but again, you don't have to buy an amateur membership. That is up to you if that program fits your needs. It's not for everyone.

Karen


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## Sunny (Oct 13, 2009)

A youth membership fee of $15 yearly is extremely reasonable. If a person can't afford to pay that, how the heck can they afford to have a horse in the first place, never mind haul it around to show(s), etc.?

I think the opiton of taking the Journal or not is also very good. Would there not be a reduction in costs if fewer copies of each issue needed to be printed? As for being kept in the loop about rule changes, etc., my guess would be that if a person isn't interested in reading the Journal, they probably aren't interested in showing at sanctioned shows and such. And, as others have already mentioned, a person declining to take the Journal would simply have to be responsible for getting the information in other ways, such as the website, etc.


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## SweetOpal (Oct 13, 2009)

JMS Miniatures said:


> Too be honest tho the Journal is starting to look boring and its pretty sad but with no advertisement theres no help.



Well that should be a big thank you to the people who regularly spend thier money putting in ads, those are the people who are paying for the journal. Do you really think your $ 65 annual membership is paying for all the organizations paid employee's, the journal production, the office expenses???? When was the last time you did a journal ad in hopes of helping the journal to be more up to your standards of what you would find not boring?? They can only put what is sent in....

Always so much negativity about the registry. Just be glad you still have one and that your horses are still considered registered! I will pay whatever they raise any fees too, regardless if it is youth, ammy, regular membership. I also think that the futurity should be something of a little higher standard and should have higher fees, however that does not affect our registry just the futurity. I also think it would be fine for the youth to pay a yearly fee as well. $ 10 is not going to break my bank considering what I am spending on these horses....

edited to ad: I would be perfectly happy to have a non member rate for registration and other office work at an increased rate.


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## midnight star stables (Oct 13, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> Why in these economic times would we make it more challenging for the youth to show? Lets be real here very few kids show on a show circuit and even fewer make it to Nationals or Congressmany might do one or two local shows a year if they are lucky


I don't see how $15.00 really makes that big of a difference?? When I was a youth (not too long ago) I ended up having to pay for my parents to be members because that's just how it worked out. And with the amount I spend on the horses, and to get them to that show, I don't see how that $15.00 matter? Or it's the parents paying anyways, so ??





Personally, I agree with Karen and Judy. I'd love to see the prices dropped. With times getting harder, I see more and more people will be cutting back, and affordable prices sure would help. JMHO.


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## mydaddysjag (Oct 13, 2009)

Honestly, I didn't realize that we had that many different ammy programs/awards available. So what your saying is there are programs that I am competing in without even "knowing it"? I always thought that I had to sign up and keep track of points etc for those programs. I'll have to see what the packet I have is. Regardless, Ill have to try for some of those awards next show season. I really hope they get that super gelding program going too.

I do agree that the AMHR website is a little lacking, and sometimes hard to navigate. Without the money to pay to have it overdone and updated, what more can you do. I do wish it were more like the AQHA website though. Im pretty sure you can now even register your foals on the website, and if you want to look up a horses offspring etc you can pay a small amount and check things like offspring, performance records, ownership records etc. I think you can even get a nice extended pedigree. I know they get a lot of revenue off of those optional services. It sure is nice to be able to pay a smal;l fee to look up one horse than to have to pay a large one time fee. I dont own a big farm or a lot of horses, and dont have the need to look up multiple horses.


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## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Wanted to share something that I requested from USEF (Yes, I'm a member) regarding advertising in their publication. Here is what I got back:

USEF member rates:

Full page color: $2,000

Full page black and white: $1,100

Half page color: $1,100

Half page black and white: $700

Third page color: $800

Third page black and white: $500

** Special offer- book an ad in the November issue too and receive 10% off both ads and even more exposure for your stallion!

This was their offer to advertise my Shetland Stallion in their publication. I personally can't afford these rates...if I can't afford these, then how can this publication stay viable? Their publication is a lot smaller than our "Journal" and I know our advertising rates are not the same as theirs. When I do advertise with our "Journal" I can get a full page ad less than their 1/3 page add.

Karen


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 13, 2009)

midnight star stables said:


> I don't see how $15.00 really makes that big of a difference??


It doesnt make a difference to me personally however there are times a youth comes to a show a spectator and would love a chance to get in and show they might not want to pay 15 bucks at that moment on top of the $15-$20.00 class fee

Again.. lowering the membership fee is fine and dandy.. the question remains where do you expect to make up the difference? Fees would have to be raised somewhere leaving Reg and transfer fees. If those go up 15 dollars a peice so membership could go down 15 a piece would you be saving any money? Or spending a heck of a lot more?

I am not sure the money would be made up purely by not recieving the Journal


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## Karen S (Oct 13, 2009)

Hi Lisa,

If my memory serves me correctly...a youth can show in any youth classes without a youth membership....the youth memebership entitles that youth to all of their youth points, and the ability to participate at the AMHR National show in the youth program and to be eligble to apply for the youth awards. So if a youth attended a show as a spectator and wanted to try their hand at showing they could, they just wouldn't receive any points.

Karen


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 13, 2009)

Karen S said:


> Hi Lisa,
> If my memory serves me correctly...a youth can show in any youth classes without a youth membership....the youth memebership entitles that youth to all of their youth points, and the ability to participate at the AMHR National show in the youth program and to be eligble to apply for the youth awards. So if a youth attended a show as a spectator and wanted to try their hand at showing they could, they just wouldn't receive any points.
> 
> Karen


Actually Karen with all due respect this is not correct. THe current standing rule is ALL YOUTH MUST HAVE A YOUTH CARD to be able to show in any ASPC/AMHR youth classes. You are correct they can show in a open class without a membership but to be in a youth class they must a possess and show a card or get one on site from the steward.

Frankly I am not against paying for the youth membership fee or paying more for any fee our registry has as long as I feel the registry is continuing to work for me and for the betterment of our breeds.

But to end up equal I will say it again for some fee to be dropped something else has to increase if they increase our registration fees would we really be saving any money?


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## ruffian (Oct 13, 2009)

Looking at the other breed fees I don't think either AMHA or AMHR are out of line.

I don't care either way of having the magazines part of the membership fee. I would buy it anyhow, just to enjoy it.

The Journal isn't as fun to read simply because most of it is black/white. They've come a ways since it was ALL black and white. Actually it was kind of nice when it was half the size because I could put it in my purse or jacket and take it with me.

Rules don't go into effect until the following years, so if someone gets the rulebook each year, they don't have to worry about reading the magazines for changes. I like to read it for other information, such as current events, stories, etc.

I don't see the rule where youth HAVE to have a youth card. I don't think they do, but could be wrong (Have been before)





I've heard it said the cheapest part of horse is the original purchase price - either $50 or $5,000. Everything else adds up!


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 13, 2009)

That rule was passed in I believe it was Buffalo NY where they decided to not charge for youth membership- however it does have to be renewed every year and yes as a show manager I have been told several times and checked with past members of the youth committee that every youth showing in a youth class must possess a card.

You can get one at a show from a steward free of charge but they must have one


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## disneyhorse (Oct 13, 2009)

I would support a member/nonmember fee schedule.

HOWEVER

I strongly feel that ALL members should receive the Journal and NOT have an option to forgo it.

Breed magazines are STRONGLY driven by ADVERTISERS... and the advertisers want to be assured that they will have the WIDEST AUDIENCE POSSIBLE. If it is possible to just not get the Journal, then why would advertisers bother? Chances are a bunch of members would opt out to save a little bit of money. I think I would...

I know a lot of people like big, thick, colorful breed magazines, but the majority of breed magazines are advertisements.

So get out there and submit your ads and put your money where your mouth is!

See? Pretty hard, huh? I personally have never run an ad in the Journal. Not enough horses here that I sell or want to promote, usually just two or so...

Andrea


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## Minimor (Oct 13, 2009)

I would be in favor of a member/non-member fee schedule, but would have to say I'm NOT in favor of reducing fees as discussed above. I don't actually have a problem with the $76 US fee for Canadian members....making that at least $83 in Canadian funds, maybe much more if the exchange rate should skyrocket--it if jumped up to 58% like it was in 2002... (that's the worst I've seen it & I always remember that year because I got a harness that was $150 US at Nationals, and that translated into $237 Cdn for me!)... At that rate the $76 US membership would cost me $120 Canadian! THAT would hurt, for sure, but if I had registry work to be done or planned on showing in that year then yes, I would take out the membership....certainly you can show without the membership but then your horses wouldn't collect any HOF points (at least I don't think so? I'd have to read that rule again to be sure) & I'd probably want those. If I had no paperwork to be done and wasn't going to show then I probably would skip the membership that year.

I would sure hate to see membership fees reduced and registration and/or transfer fees increased (or temp. to perm. fees increased for that matter)

In terms of non-member fees, my suggestion would have been that if the transfer fee is $15 for members, it should be $30 for non-members. The late transfer fee of $25 would be $50 for a non-member. Generally speaking a single transaction would be cheaper for a non-member than what it would cost to buy a membership and pay the member's rate for that transaction--but if there were 2 or more transactions to be done by that non-member, then it would be cheaper for him/her to buy a membership. That's how it always was with the Canadian Morgan club when I was active there. Whatever the member fee was the non-member fee was exactly double.

Now--and I'm not sure when this changed--that same Morgan club has greatly increased the non-member rates:

membership is $50 plus tax

Registration fee for horse within 12 months of foaling: Member $45 Non-member $150

Registration fee for horse 12-24 months of age: Member $100 Non-member $260

Transfers within 6 months of date of sale: Member $50 Non-member $160 (keep in mind that under Canadian law transfers of Canadian registered horses must be sent in and paid for by the seller)

Registration of prefix: Member $75 Non member $210

Stallion to gelding: No fee

Stallion reports: No fee if filed before January 31st of following year.

After Jan. 31st Member fee is $75, non-member fee is $135

I've always wondered why AMHR even bothers with the amateur fee when it is a mere $5--that is nothing, why bother? I don't buy my amateur card even for that small amount, and I wouldn't buy one if the fee was raised higher than that. I qualify for ammie, I just don't bother with it. Youth fees also don't affect me and I don't really have an opinion on how those should go--I can see pros and cons to no fees and "some fee" both but haven't put much thought into it either way.



> Notices can easily be put on the web page for those that do not receive the journal.


But what about those who do not have internet? They are just "nobody" and not worthy of consideration by the registry?
Mind you, I have a feeling that those persons who can't be bothered to read (or even GET a copy of it) the rule book probably don't bother to read the news and updates in the Journal either, so in that respect the absence of the news they would normally receive in the Journal doesn't make much difference to a certain number of people.


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## Shari (Oct 13, 2009)

Non-Member Transfer Fee…up to 6 months from date of sale……$40.00

Non-Member Transfer Fee…after 6 months from date of sale……. $50.00

Personally I find this too high.

Would like to see transfers for non members be $20.00 and $40.00 respectfully.

I don't plan on becoming a member again and am having hard times. Even $40.00 right now means taking food out of the human or fur kids mouths. And no.. we have not always been in these dire straights. My animals come first.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 13, 2009)

I'm sorry if I offended anyone about my comment. What I meant to say was I don't think overall the Journal is boring, its just there is no good articles, no sit back and read, its always the same. Trust me the only thing I enjoy looking at in the Journal is the advertising and so few are doing it its a shame. I can't afford or don't have anyone to promote to do an ad but I do appreciate those who do make them. So I'm sorry, but I didn't mean to offend the advertisters.

I think when it comes to the amateur and the youth programs where they do offer awards perhaps they should be backed up more. If thats the case more money.

I think there should just be a way to promote new members and I would like to know how many members we have lost since the price increase and how many members we got that were new.

I feel like a broken record, high membership costs means no new members no paperwork being done, period.


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## Karen S (Oct 14, 2009)

Good Morning Minimor,

If you will go pull you a copy of the current work order form, you will see that I didn't disturb anything regarding the Canadian fee's or the current transfer fee's. The only fee's I incorporated were the Non-Member fee's. Go back and take a look at the other associations very closely and look at their Non-Member fee's. If a person was to purchase a Miniature or Shetland and DIDN'T want to bother with joining the Registry, but wanted to put that horse in their name, then they have an avenue to do so for a very small price. I did when I owned a large paint mare three years ago. I didn't want to join the Paint Horse Associaiton, but wanted to be sure that mare was registered to me in case I wanted to re-sell her. I paid their high fee's to just do that. When you paid a price of a horse any and all transfer fee's go with it, if you are going to be a responsible horseman. Record keeping is all part of it. So I paid a pretty high price for the mare, and added on top of that their Non-Member transfer fee. When I did sell the mare, I ended up getting both the price I paid for her and my Non-Member fee's back in her selling price. What I kept reading was that folks wanted another way to keep those Miniatures and Shetlands registered without loosing their backgrounds.

I'm sorry to read that you wouldn't be interested in re-joining the Registry we need good people like you to be part of it, not just for the money but for being able to be part of the solution to help solve some of the problems that the Registry is facing today.

Karen


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## kaykay (Oct 14, 2009)

IMO our website needs a major overhaul from the bottom up. The website committee can only make suggestions for changes (which we have) but we cannot make it happen.

Regarding the Journal--fees were raised this year from last year but not a huge amount. For people who say they cant afford it get together with a group and split the fees. Our group has been running a 2 page ad for 2 years and it actually comes out very reasonable split between all of us. Im also running another full page ad in the next Journal that I split with one other farm. IMO now is the best time to advertise as obviously there is not a lot of competition





I just think that to separate the Journal from membership will take a Bylaw change but Im not sure. I just dont think its a good idea but thats just my 2 cents. There is a lot more info in the Journal besides show info. Board meeting agendas, rules changes on registration, elections etc is all in there. So even if you dont show but breed theres a lot of info that your going to get first in the Journal.

I also dont think now is the time to raise prices. Everyone is struggling right now and it just doesnt make sense to me.

If the Journal is separated from membership I do think we will loose quite a few advertisers.


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## Sue_C. (Oct 14, 2009)

> So get out there and submit your ads and put your money where your mouth is!
> See? Pretty hard, huh? I personally have never run an ad in the Journal. Not enough horses here that I sell or want to promote, usually just two or so...


Exactly...so the big-guys have to keep it going for us.



If I HAVE to pay for a mag I don't need, I would rather see a "not so shiny" mag, with more articles and information, for less $$, that we lil foplks could afford to advertize in.



> would have to say I'm NOT in favor of reducing fees as discussed above. I don't actually have a problem with the $76 US fee for Canadian members...if I had registry work to be done or planned on showing in that year then yes, I would take out the membership....certainly you can show without the membership but then your horses wouldn't collect any HOF points (at least I don't think so? I'd have to read that rule again to be sure) & I'd probably want those. If I had no paperwork to be done and wasn't going to show then I probably would skip the membership that year.


But you see, therein lies a lot of the problem...you say it yourself...if you want to SHOW and want the POINTS you will take out the costly membership, but if you don't have any use for it that next year, you won't bother to join AT ALL. Would it not be best to allow those who do not need the Journal, show, or gather points, to pay a reduced fee? That way at least you might remain a memeber EVERY YEAR, instead of just waiting for a year that you want to show again, and makes it convenient for you to become a member again?


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## Karen S (Oct 14, 2009)

Kay,

I didn't see anywhere in our By-laws that says the "Journal" is part of the membership dues. I'm going to type below the old work order form so you can compare it to the current one from the club's website:

*1996-2007, What I have copies of:*

Membership-(Current Membership required for Registry Work)

Annual membership Dues (First class Mailing of Journal Available @Additional Charge)......$45.00

Membership and Judge's Fee (After 3/1 of Current Year a $100 late fee applied).......$65.00

Membership and Steward's Fee (After 3/1 of Current Year a $100 late fee applied)....$65.00

Membership, Judges and Steward combination (After 3/1 of Current Year a $100 late fee applied)...$75.00

Second Member in Household (No Publication or Rule Book)........$15.00

Youth Membership (Under 18) (Membership Only) Birthday_____/_____/______.......$10.00

Amateur Card (Current Membership Required)........$5.00

Registration Fees (Shetland Pony or Miniature Horse) *All animals 1 yr old on Jan 1

Mares:

Weanlings.........$20.00

Yearlings.......$30.00

Two-Year Old.....$45.00

Three-Year Old (No age limit on Miniatures) (Shetlands must be registered by 12/31 of 3rd year)....$60.00

Hardship (3 years and older) (Miniature Horse Only)........$500.00

Stallions:

Weanlings.....$20.00

Yearlings......$30.00

Two-Year Old.....$45.00

Three-Year Old (No age limit on Miniatures) (Shetland must be registered by 12/31 of 3rd year).....$60.00

Hardship (3 years and older) (Miniature Horse Only)....$1000.00

Geldings-(All Ages) (Shetlands must be registered by 12/31 of 3rd yr).....$20.00

Hardship (3 years and older) (Miniature Horse Only)......$100.00

American Show Pony (Any Age or Sex).....$25.00

Foundation Classic Pony Pedigree Certification (Per Animal)....$10.00

Horses Registered from AMHA (Additional Per Horse).....$50.00

*Transfer of Ownership-ALL BREEDS up to 6 months......$15.00.....After 6 months......$25.00*

Most of the rest of the work order form is pretty close to the same with the exception of buying your prefix/suffix

Note: Journal Subscription Only..(First Class mailing available at additional charge)....$30.00...Note still same price on current work order form.

Just to help you see where the current prices are against what were the prices.

Karen


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## kaykay (Oct 14, 2009)

HI Karen

first I want to thank you for doing all this research






Heres what I found in the bylaws which is vague but I would think it means journal as that is our current "publication"

Unless otherwise specified in these Bylaws or the Articles

of Incorporation, all notices to be given by the Corporation may

be given in any magazine or regularly issued publication.

Then I read this on youth so Im confused

*Youth membership is offered at no charge as*

established by the Board of Directors. Yearly renewal

will be required and a Youth must have a one time

sponsor at the time of his/her original application.

Such a member shall not be entitled to vote or hold

office and the word “Youth” shall appear on any

membership card evidencing Youth Membership. This

will be effective December 1, 2007 for the 2008

membership year.

I have to get off here and get to work LOL but I will check in later

Kay


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 14, 2009)

While discussion is great until this conversation can really make sense one needs to know how much would truly be saved by not sending the journal and by seperating the two things.

Will prices have to go up in other parts of the registry to make up the difference? IF that is the case is that truly what we want to be done?

Would it change the advertising ratio in the Journal and how much revenue would be lost to the magazine and again is that truly worth 15 dollars?

Lastly one has to really ask (I agree times are tough) but truly would that 15 dollars really be the difference to someone who is breeding, owning, selling to make the decision on if they continue to be a member or not?

We can all say we want to pay less well DUH who doesnt but there has to be some research done on the long term price we would all have to pay out to save that 15 dollars and I personally feel it would end up costing us more in the long run.


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 15, 2009)

I absolutely appreciate it when information that no one really knows for sure or understands is presented as fact.

FIRST ... back when the magazine was made a part of the membership in 1993, there were two basic reasons. 1) Generating revenue and 2) requirements about some types of notifications on some registry business. Yes, today, some things could be on the website. HOWEVER, it is still mandated that some things be mailed out for notification. It is probably CHEAPER to include that in the magazine. Here's why ... any letter or newsletter that goes out would have 1) production or duplication costs and 2) MORE IMPORTANTLY ... mailing costs. Newsletters and letters of that nature WILL mail at first class cost. However, Journal postage is less. Journal postage is complicated because of the 60:40 ratio that I've explained before and no one still gets so I won't go into it. Plus, it streamlines management of the database.

SECOND ... rates have increased? REALLY? Rates changes in the last year have been incredibly minor ... to business cards, to spot color add-on and to some prep related items ... maybe about 2% of all rates ... if that

THIRD ... yes, the magazine is expensive to print & produce. However, it wasn't THE JOURNAL that precipitated the rates increase. Let me give you a little history. The combination was passed at the 1993 convention. The combination ... 1st membership in household & magazine ... was set at $45. It remained at that level from fall of 1993 'til fall of 2007. At that initial passage, $25 of every $45 first membership was to go toward The Journal. However, as a subsidiary of a not-for-profit, that's NOT actually the way it worked. The Journal only gets enough from the membership fees to cover the balance of what the advertising doesn't cover. The last I knew, AT NO TIME SINCE THE COMBO PASSED HAS THE JOURNAL RECEIVED THE FULL $25 per MEMBERSHIP. The extra money of the new membership fees covers general costs. There are two items specifically that have been extremely expensive for us in the last few years but that's not my position to say what.

FOURTH .. better/more editorial ... me too ... I'd love to have it. You have NO idea what we have to cut out on a regular basis. Because of the 60:40 ratio and mailing considerations PLUS both cost efficiencies and general production management, that a ratio we have to stick to regardless of the other funding. Bottom line ... everyone who wants more & better editorial should advertise.


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## Lmequine (Oct 15, 2009)

Thanks for the verification Amy!


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## Minimor (Oct 15, 2009)

> If you will go pull you a copy of the current work order form, you will see that I didn't disturb anything regarding the Canadian fee's or the current transfer fee's. The only fee's I incorporated were the Non-Member fee's.


I know, but my point was, the transfer fees haven't been touched....YET. But what happens if the reduced membership fees result in a large loss of revenue, then will the registry raise other fees (transfer fees, registration fees) to make up the shortfall? I'm saying that I do not want to see membership fees reduced if it will mean that in the long run other fees must take a jump. I simply would like to see a non-member fee introduced as an extra choice for people.
Actually the lack of mention of the Canadian fee is also a problem. If US member fees are reduced then the Canadians will need to be offered the same reduction. If there are US members who wish to be members and not receive the Journal, surely there will be Canadian members who would like to pay a lower fee and not receive the Journal. I don't believe that you could offer different fees to one and not to the other.



> Go back and take a look at the other associations very closely and look at their Non-Member fee's.


 I'm well aware of what some other organizations charge for non-member fees. As others have noted on other threads, ASPC/AMHR are not the "other" registries and do not necessarily match with what those other registries are doing, or in this case....charging.



> If a person was to purchase a Miniature or Shetland and DIDN'T want to bother with joining the Registry, but wanted to put that horse in their name, then they have an avenue to do so for a very small price.


 I'm not sure if a $50 transfer fee for non-members counts as 'very small' though of course it is somewhat less than the $65 + $15 it currently costs. I suspect that even at $50 most of these buyers would not bother to transfer the papers on their new pets. I would not count on these non-member transfers to make up the losses created by the offering of a reduced membership fee.


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## Karen S (Oct 15, 2009)

Hi Minimor,

The fee's where MY recommendations, not something that will be set in stone. It's was to be a guideline as to what COULD you live with? If eveyone wanted lower fee's for transfer for a non-member than what I gave as a guideline, then the Board will be the only one that can set those fee's. I can't say what will or will not take place on anything with the Canadian fee's aw well.

Karen


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## Lewella (Oct 15, 2009)

ahrobertspony said:


> I absolutely appreciate it when information that no one really knows for sure or understands is presented as fact.
> FIRST ... back when the magazine was made a part of the membership in 1993, there were two basic reasons. 1) Generating revenue and 2) requirements about some types of notifications on some registry business. Yes, today, some things could be on the website. HOWEVER, it is still mandated that some things be mailed out for notification. It is probably CHEAPER to include that in the magazine. Here's why ... any letter or newsletter that goes out would have 1) production or duplication costs and 2) MORE IMPORTANTLY ... mailing costs. Newsletters and letters of that nature WILL mail at first class cost. However, Journal postage is less. Journal postage is complicated because of the 60:40 ratio that I've explained before and no one still gets so I won't go into it. Plus, it streamlines management of the database.


I'm going to expand a little bit on this portion of Amy's' post - Where she uses mandated she does not mean mandated by our bylaws but by _the laws of the State of Illinios_ which govern how a not-for-profit communicates with its membership.

As I've said before, I do not personally believe from my experience in the printing industry and office management that doing a separate mailing of this mandated information would result in cost savings to our membership. To the contrary I believe it would result in an increased cost to our membership.


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## Lmequine (Oct 15, 2009)

Good point. We all forget that the ASPC/AMHR is a not-for-profit organization and has to answer to rules and laws above our own association "rules".


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## kaykay (Oct 15, 2009)

HI Amy

Not sure if your post is directed at me but I have been running our 2 page ad for 2 years now. The rate for this year is higher then it was last year and I was told it was a rate increase for 2009. I dont have the exact figure - but Im thinking it went up 20.00 or 10.00 per page which is not at all a huge increase but is still more then 2008. If this info is wrong I dont know what to say except this is what I was told by the office staff





But for sure like I said its still very doable especially if people get together with other farms.

Kay


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 15, 2009)

Lewella said:


> I'm going to expand a little bit on this portion of Amy's' post - Where she uses mandated she does not mean mandated by our bylaws but by _the laws of the State of Illinios_ which govern how a not-for-profit communicates with its membership.



Wow Lewella thanks.. I have heard Amy explain that several times at Convention and chalk it up to being tired or well who knows but somehow I have always missed that VERY KEY INFORMATION- I can not believe I never even thought of that before or that after having it explained at length by Amy I still didnt hear that very important part.

I always assumed she meant mandated by our registry and it really never made sense to me as to why we can not just change it to be able to put in more articles and stuff well a huge DUH for me









Now a lightbulb went off and I finally get it so thank you so much!


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