# Does my horse hate his bit?



## mydaddysjag (Jul 7, 2011)

D was recently sent out to the trainer for 45 days, and while there was successfully shown, and even finished up his hall of fame. While there we went out and I had 3 driving lessons (the trainer was too far to go more often).

Now that Domingo is home and Im driving him more, it seems like something just isn't right. I think he might hate the bit. It's the same type of bit he was in at the trainer, but It is a little bit of a "harsher" bit, and I think maybe in my novice hands, its too harsh. He seems to resist it, and the majority of the time im driving him, he is chomping away at the bit, and trying to avoid it. I had my husband drive him for a few minutes so I could take a video of him being driven so I could post it to get your opinion. Please, gentle critiques, we are very novice. Do you think the issue is the bit? If so, do you think I should switch to a milder bit? I was thinking of getting him a french link half cheek snaffle. I cant afford another myler at the moment, so thats out of the question.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lkc2NBawkJM


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## RhineStone (Jul 7, 2011)

According to Jeff Morse, horses express anxiety in their mouth, so it doesn't have to be the bit causing him pain or frustration even though he is chomping. Is the arena surface deeper? Yes, your novice hands? Harness bumping him? Bit too low or too high? It may take a bit of trial and error to come up with the reason.

Myrna


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## disneyhorse (Jul 7, 2011)

I don't know the whole story and it's hard to tell a lot from a snapshot of you and your horse, but I think you could benefit from some lessons on driving. I'm not sure what your horse looked at his best, so I don't know if your horse additionally needs more work.

It looks like he is fighting something, not really his bit I don't think. I would look into what Myrna has suggested. I would also wonder if he normally is fine about setting his head (I am assuming you are going to do breed ring driving?). This takes some technique to do properly, assuming the horse understands what is asked. I usually ask the horse to set its head and work quietly in the mouth at the walk before I ask for the trot. I also work them in the lines from the ground before adding the cart so if there are issues I can asses from there (if the horse is quiet in the mouth in the lines, then it could be a cart/harness issue or footing issue pulling).

Andrea


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 7, 2011)

We sent Domingo out to a well known reputable mini/shetland trainer for a 45 day refresher because he had last season off while I was pregnant. Domingo is a pretty established driving horse, hes been driving for at least 8 years (he was a solid driving horse when I bought him) hes gotten national champion, reserve national champion, and numerous national top fives between country pleasure and roadster. He just finished his hall of fame in country pleasure on 6/18/2011, and we brought him home from the trainer on 6/25. While he was at the trainer I did go out and take driving lessons, but am unable to keep going back for lessons. Its a four and a half hour drive one way, and I have a one year old who doesn't enjoy the trip. Ive looked for driving instructors in my area for the past three years, and this trainer is the closest. My area is mostly barrel horses and western pleasure horses. The harness he has on was used during my last lesson with the trainer, he helped me adjust everything to be sure it was fitted correctly. I'll post a picture of me in the cart with him so you guys can see how I have him harnessed, to be sure I have everything right. In the picture the traces look like theyre drooping, but when hes moving, they are tight.


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 7, 2011)

please dont mind his feet, I know they are super long. Ive been trying to get the farrier out for two weeks.


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 7, 2011)

If it helps at all, here is a picture of him a little over a month ago during one of our lessons while at the trainers.


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## drivin*me*buggy (Jul 7, 2011)

He is a cutie



Have his teeth been floated? You have gotten some good suggestions on other things to look at as well.

Angie


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## JMS Miniatures (Jul 7, 2011)

Chewing isn't always a bad thing. It can also mean a sign of relaxation. Especially if they salivating. However watching the video it definitively shows that he is fighting with you and the bit. He is gaping his mouth, rooting his nose out, he just looks confused. To know he is a HOF driver and from the last pic you shown you couldn't tell that was the same horse. I have 2 suggestions for you. One is check his teeth and see if he needs chiro work. He could be uncomfortable with something, doesn't have to be his teeth. If his body is out of alignment it can certainty be aggravating. Two I would go back to the trainer and take another lesson just to see what needs to be improved. Or at least talk to your trainer and try to find out together whats going wrong. It could be the bit and since you are a novice you may just need a milder bit for just driving for fun, but there is something wrong.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 8, 2011)

Since he was just fine with the trainer a few weeks ago I'd say it's unlikely to be his teeth or even his body although that's always a possibility. More likely it's a mental issue related to either your lack of experience, driving in the new home environment without his familiar cues or something similar.

If I recall he goes in a twisted wire snaffle for the trainer? That bit (which is a totally unnecessary and potentially cruel piece of equipment to my way of thinking) may work for the trainer but I suspect isn't a good choice in the hands of a beginner. Find a similar bit in a smooth metal and see if that helps at all but honestly, the only thing that's probably going to help is getting some more lessons and experience. (I know, difficult to do with the trainer so far away!)

Sorry.





Leia


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 8, 2011)

Yes, a twisted myler with a roller.


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## RhineStone (Jul 8, 2011)

mydaddysjag said:


> Yes, a twisted myler with a roller.


OUCH!!!


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 8, 2011)

I was thinking of trying a french link snaffle with the copper link, and seeing if that helped. He does not seem sore anywhere to me, hes moving fine when lunged or round penned, hes still eager to jump when we practice hunter, and the footing isnt deep, its very, very firmly packed. It could actually use being drug, Its so packed that its only about 2" deep.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jul 8, 2011)

Whether or not this is too much bit for a novice aside, if it is the same bit he wore at the trainers _and_ you drove him in it at the trainers it seems possible there is something else going on. Is this a different harness/headstall? Is the bit adjusted the same way as he is accustomed too? I'm wondering if the bit might be hanging lower in his mouth which will make all the rein cues feel different to him and also allow him to slip his tongue over the bit. I have a gelding here who will get his tongue over the bit if it is not correctly adjusted and then he gapes and struggles with the bit, is distracted while he focuses on trying to put his tongue back under and will root his nose out in an attempt to escape the discomfort it causes. I can't see adjustment at all from the pics but I know some people like to 'hang' a bit in the horses mouth and let him learn to pick it up and carry it. That doesn't work for every horse IMO. Just a thought


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 8, 2011)

He did wear the same harness at the trainer, with the exception that he was driven in draw reins instead of with a martingale and regular reins


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jul 8, 2011)

Looking at the pictures it seems the pull from the martingale is somewhat downward while the draw reins were straight back. Understand I am just erm...'spitballing' here but could you try driving with out the martingale to see if that helps? Anyway you could convince the trainer to come to you and see if he/she can spot a problem? That way he can see you and Domingo in his new environment with your tack. Also I noted that you said the bit was the same _type_ as the trainer used, could this one have a rough edge or something to make him try to evade? I know it might be brand new but have you checked it for pokey bits? I test mine by taking a used nylon and sliding it along the surface to see if it catches anywhere.


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## brasstackminis (Jul 13, 2011)

Ok, so I watched the video over and over...some things I noticed. Your husband does not drive anywhere near the way you do. I can tell that from just the way you are holding your reins in both pictures vs. his video clip. Does Domino act the same when you are driving him? I know you said you are a novice, but what level of driving is your hubby? I'm guessing he is less experianced...can you switch places and drive him while your hubby videos? That might help eliminate that one difference.

When he was turning the corners, I noticed that the inside rein use was a little abrupt. Then your mini then reacted with a head toss. I believe in steadier hands some of his reactiviness would diminish. I would not personally every use a twisted wire bit on anything! But that is just me... I ride my 16.2hh warmblood arabian cross in a plain loose ring snaffle for my First and Second level tests! I do know lots of big horse trainers (Western) that consider it a training bit. That being said, they are trying to get the horse to NOT move into the bit but just to carry themselves and hold the bit. Totally different from what you want. I would imagine the combination of a running martingale pulling down on the reins (consequently turning the bit in the horses mouth so that the break in the snaffle is pointing upwards into the roof of his mouth) combined with less than subtle rein movement and an inexperianced driver is causing your guy's head to be less than consistant. He is also not moving very forward (which you knew because you instructed your DH to move him out). I would imagine that he is reluctant to move forward into all of that above stated uncomfortableness/inconsistancy.

I would borrow some bits from some friends if you can...less severe would be my suggestion. Try taking him down by degrees. The reason I say this is he is used to a fairly severe bit and if he was trained with it, I wouldn't want you to be out there with a very forward horse with too light of communication _for him_. I am not sure that you need to get a french link. If he was fine at the trainers in a 2 piece snaffle, then I wouldn't worry about it too much, BUT if you can borrow one, trying is free right? I know that Janie at Chimicum Tack is good about letting you try out different bits if you can not find anyone to loan you a new bit to try. I thought that my gelding needed a new style of bit but all he needed was a wider bit pulled up a hole on each side. I kept the other bits to add to my collection (you never know). I have trained at least 10 horses to ride and/or drive and almost all of them go in either a loose ring snaffle (riding) or half cheek snaffle (driving). Only one liked my Herm Sprenger 3 piece KK bit! Don't they know how expensive and great that bit is supposed to be???





I hope you are not thinking I am trying to tear you up...not my intention so I apologize up front if it seems that way!





Karen


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## Sue_C. (Jul 13, 2011)

O-M-G-!!! A twisted wire snaffle, with draw reins...



:shocked

I suggest a nice little french link, or my favourite...a Myler comfort snaffle.

Run, don't walk...AWAY from the twisted wire...AND the draw reins...both so totally unnecessary on any horse, let alone a greenie. My opinion on these pieces of archaic "equipment" is that I would kick to the curb any "trainer" who thought to use either on any horse of mine.


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 13, 2011)

Im trying to get to the barn (I board right now) tonight and drive him in a french link, and see if my hubby can figure out how to record it. My nephew was born this morning, so im not positive if I'll make it to the barn. My sister was in labor for about 24 hours and had a c section, so I may wait to go see her tomorrow after shes had some time to rest and bond with my nephew. My husband has trouble using my digital camera to take video, thats why I recorded him driving again. I know domingo does "fight" me a but, but i'm not sure if its as much as he fights my husband. Oddly, Domingo went better in that bit with the draw reins than with regular reins.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jul 13, 2011)

I think brasstackminis made a good point when she said the martingale was putting downward pressure on the bit causing the joint to point upward into the horse's palate. If he was using this bit previously without issues I suggest again, drop the martingale and see if he relaxes. The backwards pressure of the draw reins could have caused the bit to bend more to the front of the mouth along the tongue while the martingale causes an upward bend. I do agree with the others tho when they say look for a gentler bit. I drive most of mine in a mullen mouth and only a few in a broken snaffle, none in any of the more complicated bits. I learned as a child that training stopped my horse not strength so the more comfortable the bit the easier it is for the horse to 'listen' to what it is saying.


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 14, 2011)

Im going to try without the martingale, and the different bit. I dont want to keep using the twisted wire, then get him to the point that he has to be driven in a severe bit to be responsive.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 14, 2011)

mydaddysjag said:


> Im going to try without the martingale, and the different bit. I dont want to keep using the twisted wire, then get him to the point that he has to be driven in a severe bit to be responsive.



Whew, great news...because I cannot even THINK of _any_ other bit MORE SEVERE than the one he has been _started _with.






Don't expect a "miracle" right away, as he has already been desensitized by the rough usage of the wrong equipment, (IMO) and it might take awhile for him to respond as quickly to the usual starter bits. PLEASE give him time to adjust...

Personally, I feel that twisted wire bits should not even be made...actually, in most disciplines, they ARE illegal in the show ring...that alone should tell you something.


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 14, 2011)

Sue, He wasn't started with the twisted myler, he was only put in that for 45 days. He was in a plain snaffle before. Im hoping that in time hes fine with the french link. The twisted bit he was in wasnt as harsh as some of the "twisted wire" bits Ive seen. I cant find a picture of the exact bit he has, but its NOT this type of twisted bit:






Here is the "knock off" version of the bit he has:


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## Sue_C. (Jul 14, 2011)

That is still a terribly severe bit...any twisted bit is, and I have never ever heard of a green horse being bitted with one. The only horses even the harshest trainers I have known, have used a twisted bit with, are older horses that they claim they need such bits to "re-train" the mouth on...or to "soften them up" they say...and even they wouldn't use one in conjunction with a draw rein.

Sorry, I don't know this trainer, but I cannot imagine why they felt the need for such harsh measures when starting your horse. He was likely putting his head up to avoid the pain of the sharp points of the bit on his bars and tongue, so they used the draw reins to bring it back down. OUCH!!! Horses cannot talk, it is only by their actions they can tell us something...it is up to the driver/rider to try to understand what they are trying to tell us. I am glad that you are listening...


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 15, 2011)

Sue, my horse wasnt a green horse, hes an 11 year old multiple time national champion, reserve, and top 5 driving horse, hes been driving for over 8 years. When he was broke to drive, he was broke with a snaffle. He was sent to the trainer for a quick tune up.

I agree, any twisted bit is a bit harsh, just wanted to make sure you knew which bit it was, as one is MUCH harsher than the other. Also wanted to make sure I had it clear in my post that this wasnt a green horse, rather a finished driving horse getting a tune up after winter off.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 15, 2011)

mydaddysjag said:


> Oddly, Domingo went better in that bit with the draw reins than with regular reins.


That actually doesn't surprise me much. The draw reins were attached very high so there wasn't as much drawing or leverage action, I think instead it simply steadied the pressure the horse felt and allowed him to trust the contact more because he wasn't going to get any unexpected jerks or bumps. The rein would simply slide through the bit ring and pull his head in without actually jolting his sensitive bars.



Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> I learned as a child that training stopped my horse not strength so *the more comfortable the bit the easier it is for the horse to 'listen' to what it is saying*.








Leia


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## Sue_C. (Jul 15, 2011)

Sorry, I just jumped to the assumption that having been to a trainer that he was a green horse. As for the rest, I still stand by what I said; I dislike any form of twisted bit, on any horse, and combined with draw reins, like it even less, and just don't see the need.

I hope you can find the problem, and he ends up with a "happy mouth". I have far too many times seen the results of the wrong bits, and it is a much prettier picture when the correct one is found.


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