# Starting a Pair



## Krazee bout Kasspur (Nov 20, 2009)

Are there training procedures one can do to produce a driving team when one mini is already trained to drive? Prior to purchasing a 4-wheel buggy, of course




. I have a stud and a mare that are together constantly and when I lead them out to graze, I hold both leads in one hand and they look so cute huddled together in a synchronized walk. The stud is well trained to drive.

Any thoughts, tips, suggestions?

Thanks!


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## Jill (Nov 20, 2009)

I'm not an expert, at all, but I'd start with having the one who doesn't already know how to drive trained to drive as a single before working on pair driving.

Good luck, be safe and have fun!


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## nbark (Nov 20, 2009)

I also have one that is trained and another that needs to be trained. The first thing I did was put them in the round pen together and watched what they did. They ran together side by side, which tells me that they will be good together. I also spoke to my driving trainer who said the best way is "monkey see monkey do"....start by lunging the beginner in a little bridle with a bit..if this has already been done, then progress to putting on a training surcingle and using the reins to drive her from behind. Then progress to a closed bridle. When that is done, hook them together and ground drive them, with someone heading them for safety..while doing this if you can make different sounds behind them (my trainer always grabbed the round pen and shook it as he walked past it to give them sounds that they could hear but not see). The trained mini will keep the untrained one sane when noises appear.....when you feel that they are both comfortable and ready, you can add the cart and ground drive them from behind the cart before progressing into the cart (always have an assistant for emergencies). Hope this has given you some info, but you will get much more, just take what you think is good for your situation and adapt it to fit your needs, no matter what advice you get.. and good luck.


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Nov 20, 2009)

Another question:

"hook them together and ground drive them"

What is the proper way and what equipment is needed to do this?

Great advice... Thank you both!!!

Lori


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## disneyhorse (Nov 20, 2009)

Krazee bout Kasspur said:


> Another question:
> "hook them together and ground drive them"
> 
> What is the proper way and what equipment is needed to do this?
> ...


Hey Lori... I suggest finding someone with an experienced pair, and learn to hook and drive them. That way you understand the process and goals for your green horses. It is a very complex process that is best not described over the Internet, for your safety and your horses' (and possibly others around you



)

Andrea


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## nbark (Nov 20, 2009)

disneyhorse said:


> Krazee bout Kasspur said:
> 
> 
> > Another question:
> ...


Well put Andrea, couldn't agree more


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Nov 20, 2009)

Never mind then...I found a great blog that explains it all in great detail.


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## Jill (Nov 21, 2009)

Just be careful, as Andrea has stressed. It's one thing to read about something and another thing to really know how to do it or how to anticipate and best handle all the possible reactions from the horse.

There are too many people doling out advice online when 90% of their "experience" has come from reading vs. doing. Some of those people need some different horses to work with and to _really_ teach them all they think they learned from reading books and looking at harnessing charts.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 21, 2009)

Jill said:


> Just be careful, as Andrea has stressed. It's one thing to read about something and another thing to really know how to do it or how to anticipate and best handle all the possible reactions from the horse.
> There are too many people doling out advice online when 90% of their "experience" has come from reading vs. doing. Some of those people need some different horses to work with and to _really_ teach them all they think they learned from reading books and looking at harnessing charts.



Also very well said Jill. I couldn't agree more with what Jill and Andrea have posted. There are so many things that can go wrong with a beginner hitching a single horse and that double's when hitching a team. Learning to train and drive from a forum or video cannot possibly teach you how to react in event of trouble and you are likely to get yourself or your horses injured - you don't want that!

You have taken the correct first step - read and learn all you can BUT when it comes time to put it into practice *find someone knowledgeable to give you a hand*.


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## RhineStone (Nov 21, 2009)

We don't have a pair right now (all our horses are different sized/gaited), but when we did, I was "surprized" that the gelding that was so much the driver's "partner" as a single was suddenly the other horse's partner, and the driver was the "3rd wheel"! They worked fine together (we took them to the Midwest Horse Fair one year and my sister was photographed with the pair and interviewed for an article in Western Horseman magazine!), but it was definitely different (mentally) than driving a single.


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Nov 23, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> Jill said:
> 
> 
> > Just be careful, as Andrea has stressed. It's one thing to read about something and another thing to really know how to do it or how to anticipate and best handle all the possible reactions from the horse.
> ...



Of course it's common sense to find an instructor/trainer to achieve the ultimate goal. Trainers often have different methods which may or may not be safe to begin with. Who's to say for sure?

The description of the driving forum says that it is a place to ask questions pertaining to such. I don't think I'll bother to anymore.


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## Jill (Nov 23, 2009)

I'm sorry you've taken offense, but good advice has been offered and by people who have had driving horses for many years. We've heard and seen some very bad situations that began with the best intentions. We also know there are some "online" gurus who are only so "online".


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 23, 2009)

Krazee bout Kasspur said:


> MiLo Minis said:
> 
> 
> > Jill said:
> ...


I too am very sorry you have taken offense but this forum is not intended to teach you how to train your horse - no forum can possibly do that! Yes of course it is a good place to get answers to specific questions regarding training BUT you really can't learn to train just by asking questions and you need to sift carefully the answers you get from any source other than your own experience. My intention was to prevent you or your horses or both from being injured just as Jill and Andrea were.

When you are looking for a trainer or more experienced person to help you, you need to ask plenty of questions and talk to them first to get a feel for how knowledgeable they are and how well their handling of horses matches your own ideas of how they should be handled. You can ask for references and follow through on them, talk to others they have worked for. Go and visit their training facilities - does it look to be a safe and healthy place to send your horse/s? Are the horses there healthy and happy? Whenever you are working with horses there is a certain amount of risk involved both to you and the horse but there are things you can do to minimize the risks and this is one of them. Getting help to start a team if you have no experience that way is also a way to minimize risk - I certainly got help the first time I did and the second time......


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## Jill (Nov 23, 2009)

Another thing to point out, for others even if the OP is not longer following, is that people just starting into driving minis might GREATLY underestimate the strength of a mini. If your mini is spooked, there is no way on earth you can hold the horse back, even with a bit in its mouth. Even with your feet on the ground, really. Too many people think "oh, they're just small" and don't realize they're far stronger than a person and are to be treated with every bit as much respect, time and care as would be taken to train a full size horse to drive.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 5, 2009)

I'm a bit surprised at the direction this thread took after the first few posts. Of course you can't learn to drive from a forum, but it always boggles me when the only response people get to "Theoretically, how do I..." is "Go find a trainer, it would be irresponsible of me to dole out any knowledge." If they HAD a trainer or knew how to recognize a good one, they probably wouldn't be asking the question in the first place!



There are so many wacko "horse trainers" out there it scares the living bejeebies out of me. At least on here the person can pick through the advice they receive without putting their horses at the mercy of the only yahoo who happens to live in their area and maybe pick up some tips that would help them recognize a good trainer or learn how to find one. MiLo had some useful advice on things to ask someone you're interested in and I thoroughly agree with her.

That said, pair driving can be a lot of fun but is made even more fun by knowing your horses are properly aducated and ready for it. I know draft drivers will often start a pair by putting a green horse with an experienced buddy but I'm one of those who thinks it's better if each horse knows his job before he's asked to add the additional complication of a pole, coupling reins, and a heavier load. I'd start the greenie individually and when she's solid on all her gaits, voice commands, standing quietly, pulling, and maneuvering a cart you can try putting her with her stallion friend.



Jill said:


> There are too many people doling out advice online when 90% of their "experience" has come from reading vs. doing. Some of those people need some different horses to work with and to _really_ teach them all they think they learned from reading books and looking at harnessing charts.


That is true, but on the other hand there are lots of so-called "trainers" who turn out dozens of horses a year but never take the time to read and educate themselves or take any horse further than "get between the shafts and don't freak out."



A well-rounded horseman worth listening to educates himself from as many sources as possible, tries what seems reasonable to him, and refines his training based on what works for him and his horses. That may mean books, online mentors, in person mentors, clinicians...any source of knowledge is valuable if the information is good!

Leia

Edited for better phrasing


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 5, 2009)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> ...any source of knowledge is valuable if the information is good!
> Leia


I am all for everyone learning whatever they can from wherever they can about anything they are interested in BUT the big problem with something as dangerous as driving can be is that if you don't know anything how do you know "if the information is good"?

For someone who has little or no experience with driving a team learning how to do it from a forum is extremely dangerous and very difficult. The best piece of advice to give her was find a mentor/trainer/knowledgeable friend to give her a hand. We can give her all kinds of advice on here and have no clue if she actually understands or comprehends what we are saying. Will she go and work with her horse correctly or will she get herself and her horse injured because she really didn't understand what she was being told was the right way to go about it. And I am not in any way implying this poster is stupid or any poster is stupid. We all know how things written on the forum can easily be misconstrued. When all it involves is someone's feelings being hurt when such was not intended that is one thing but when someone could possibly die because of it that is another thing entirely.


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## Jill (Dec 5, 2009)

I thought this conversation was finished quite awhile ago.



hobbyhorse23 said:


> Jill said:
> 
> 
> > There are too many people doling out advice online when 90% of their "experience" has come from reading vs. doing. Some of those people need some different horses to work with and to _really_ teach them all they think they learned from reading books and looking at harnessing charts.
> ...


My point is simply that there are a whole lot of people who are gurus online but not any place else. It's dangerous when people turn to them for advice in good faith but don't realize maybe he/she has only owned a couple horses, only driven a few horses, etc. Books are great. I've learned a lot from them, too. However, when it comes to horses, a library of books isn't going to tell you very much of what you need to really know in terms of riding or driving and especially not when it comes to _training_ for riding or driving. That insight comes from years of experience with many different horses and it's not something that can be imparted to another over the internet.



MiLo Minis said:


> When all it involves is someone's feelings being hurt when such was not intended that is one thing but when someone could possibly die because of it that is another thing entirely.


Right on, Lori!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 5, 2009)

You both make good points, and I agree finding a knowledgeable trainer is the best piece of advice we can give. But when we won't offer even basic safety guidelines or things to watch for, people will look other places. Like blogs. What I'm afraid of is that stonewalling someone doesn't make them go do it the smart way, it makes them feel miffed and try to do it themselves without guidance. Even scarier!





I'm not saying the original poster was miffed, blogs are bad, or that anyone here stonewalled or tried to be unhelpful.



I'm saying it can look that way sometimes to a newbie and I've seen bad things happen from that too. I think both viewpoints have merit and we are each free to choose to say something or not on each post. I'm sure the OP was glad for the responses she got and I hope she will find local help so she can enjoy her horses even more.

Jill, I do apologize for bringing up an old thread but as you know I've been away. Just catching up....

Leia


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## susanne (Dec 5, 2009)

Just as an FYI, the blog the OP is referring to is *petArtistWithPeaches horse blog * portraitswithhorses.com/blog/ (I've neutered the link, but if this gets removed, feel free to contact me.)

I've read this blog for some time. Connie Moses, the blogger, does not claim to be a professional trainer, and in fact has disclaimers to that effect. Her responses to Lori have urged caution, and her discussions of working with her own full-sized horses are thoughtful and respectful of the animals.

Not being a trainer myself, I'm not qualified to voice an opinion on her experience or approach. It's certainly possible that you may not like what she says, but I would not consider her a dangerous web blowhard. From what I've read, I don't believe she would ever suggest that one can learn to start a driving strictly from reading what's on the internet.


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Dec 8, 2009)

"For someone who has little or no experience with driving a team learning how to do it from a forum is extremely dangerous and very difficult. The best piece of advice to give her was find a mentor/trainer/knowledgeable friend to give her a hand. We can give her all kinds of advice on here and have no clue if she actually understands or comprehends what we are saying. Will she go and work with her horse correctly or will she get herself and her horse injured because she really didn't understand what she was being told was the right way to go about it. And I am not in any way implying this poster is stupid or any poster is stupid. We all know how things written on the forum can easily be misconstrued. When all it involves is someone's feelings being hurt when such was not intended that is one thing but when someone could possibly die because of it that is another thing entirely."

The assumption that I am a beginner with driving is incorrect. I'm not "miffed" or have "hurt feelings". I'm not asking anyone to "train my horse for me". I was simply trying to start a thread regarding ground driving a pair and someone decided to kill it after it got started. Why just kill it if you're not knowledgeable with the topic to begin with? I see plenty of other threads here in the driving section where training advice is given readily. What if THAT person doesn't "understand or comprehend what is being said and gets his/herself and his/herself horse injured because he/she really didn't understand what THEY were being told was the right way to go about it."??? Why give advice then and not tell them to find a trainer when "someone could possibly die"? I've been PM'd by several individuals that are experienced regarding my thread question and they've indicated they don't dare post here.

Also, if it's such a taboo subject, then what is the point of posting Connie's pairs ground driving blog info, and the discussions she and I have, on this board?


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 8, 2009)

Not once did I suggest that you were a beginner driver. What I said was "For someone who has little or no experience with driving a team". The very best advice to give in this instance was "Find someone knowledgeable to give you a hand". As an experienced driver I would think that you would understand the inherent risks involved and realize yourself that you need someone on hand, to give you a hand.

For those ones that are pm'ing you and saying "they don't dare post here" I would wonder: is it because their advice would not stand up to public scrutiny?

Glad to see that you are still here and haven't abandoned us entirely




Be assured that we will help you as much as we possibly can with specific questions regarding training rather than a blanket "how do you go about it".


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Dec 8, 2009)

"As an experienced driver I would think that you would understand the inherent risks involved and realize yourself that you need someone on hand, to give you a hand.

For those ones that are pm'ing you and saying "they don't dare post here" I would wonder: is it because their advice would not stand up to public scrutiny?"

With a herd of six including biggies, I can assure you I understand ALL the inherent risks involved. It would be great to have someone on hand at any time, not just during driving. That's not always the case for some of us. I'm not saying I'm going to run out and hitch up a pair on my own...please don't misconstrue that.

I wasn't given a reason why the PMr's refuse to post and I didn't ask. I'm just grateful they did reply with offers to help.


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## susanne (Dec 8, 2009)

Speaking as the one who posted the info on Connie's blog, it's safe to assume I do not consider the subject taboo. Asked and answered.

Nobody here really knows your level of experience, and after reading the horrendous Ehow "instructions" on training a mini to drive, I think everyone is a bit gun-shy about web advice. Not knowing you and not having read the blog, it is only natural to urge caution. A bit of an overgeneralization? True, but in my opinion better that than the alternative.

Keep in mind that most often those who warn you about the dangers of driving speak from experience and simply want you and your horses to remain safe.

I can forgive others just about anything when they are concerned about the animals involved.

As for anyone feeling that they "dare not post here," give me a break. Yes, people are opinionated -- and rightly so. The exchange of info so far on this board is excellent, and some of it is potentially lifesaving. Nobody is walking on eggshells, thank goodness, but simply stating the truth. Give me that any day over the namby-pamby-don't-hurt-anyone's-feelings kind of crap that so often passes for forum "advice." JMO.


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## RhineStone (Dec 8, 2009)

I also wonder if the PM's were mentioning the website that addresses pair driving. The Mods don't like other website addresses mentioned, and therefore they dare not post here.


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Dec 8, 2009)

Nope...no websites mentioned in the PM's. Just assistance offered if needed from other LB members.

Connie also invited me to share my pairs ground driving experiences on her blog once I get started.


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## Jill (Dec 8, 2009)

The OP needs to understand that people with all ranges of experience will take what they read in this thread and apply it to their own situations. This is not a private, one on one, discussion.


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 8, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> For those ones that are pm'ing you and saying "they don't dare post here" I would wonder: is it because their advice would not stand up to public scrutiny?


As a mod the only reason that I know that some people won't post here is because they are constantly challenged by a others who feel that the only way is "their way". If you have driven a large number of horses and have the experience of a number of different individuals you will know that all horses are different and all will respond in different ways.......and not always by the so called book. Training every single horse is different. There is no set "one way" to do anything. So Lori, you might be right. I think a lot of people are put off because some of their ideas do get "scrutinized". But that is just the way a Forum is....you take the good, the bad and the ugly.



> I also wonder if the PM's were mentioning the website that addresses pair driving. The Mods don't like other website addresses mentioned, and therefore they dare not post here


Rhinestone......Hello by the way........glad to see you on the Forum.



This is the rule pertaining to links.



> Posts directing LB traffic to other online auctions, sale boards. forums, and/or interactive Miniature horse sites without permission/agreement will also be removed.


The "mods" only want the rules followed and that is the rule pertaining to links. I seriously hope that people are not afraid to post on the Forum because of that rule.



> As for anyone feeling that they "dare not post here," give me a break. Yes, people are opinionated -- and rightly so. The exchange of info so far on this board is excellent, and some of it is potentially lifesaving. Nobody is walking on eggshells, thank goodness, but simply stating the truth. Give me that any day over the namby-pamby-don't-hurt-anyone's-feelings kind of crap that so often passes for forum "advice." JMO.


I couldn't agree more! *NOBODY* should feel like that can't post. And if you have a problem PLEASE contact a mod and they will help. This Forum is for everyone! There are many people out there who have won a lot on the National level and have had a lot of driving experience in other venues! It certainly would be nice to hear from all of you.



There are also people who are just starting out and know absolutely nothing and they are just as welcome.


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Dec 8, 2009)

" The OP needs to understand that people with all ranges of experience will take what they read in this thread and apply it to their own situations. This is not a private, one on one, discussion."

Isn't that what occurs on any thread that is read? I'm sorry, I really don't see what the problem was with my thread in comparison to all the others in which you give advice on moving/adjusting harnesses, raising/lowering breeching, altering carts, etc., etc. (just to name a few). One person responding had said ground driving pairs is just too involved to explain on the internet.....funny, the discussions regarding CDE training and eventing get pretty involved. Or maybe it's because as someone else said "we don't know you". I can see now why ppl would be afraid to post



.

I'm done






:wacko .


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## Jill (Dec 8, 2009)

What I meant is to not be upset if some of the responses do not apply to your situation -- they will apply to some other people reading





I'm sorry that you have taken offense, but there have been no replies on this thread that are not valid and reasonable


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## RhineStone (Dec 8, 2009)

I haven't spent much time on the drivingpairs website, but when I looked today, Hardy Zantke has four articles that average about 10 paragraphs each addressing how to start a pair entitled 101-104. I think what most people here were trying to say is that it is so involved that it just can't be explained effectively in a few paragraphs if Hardy needs four separate LONG articles. If there is a specific question that can be answered, I think forums can be useful. But beyond that, it becomes a cumbersome method of education unless there is a source to redirect to, such as a good book, person, or other website.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 8, 2009)

RhineStone said:


> I haven't spent much time on the drivingpairs website, but when I looked today, Hardy Zantke has four articles that average about 10 paragraphs each addressing how to start a pair entitled 101-104. I think what most people here were trying to say is that it is so involved that it just can't be explained effectively in a few paragraphs if Hardy needs four separate LONG articles. If there is a specific question that can be answered, I think forums can be useful. But beyond that, it becomes a cumbersome method of education unless there is a source to redirect to, such as a good book, person, or other website.


That is exactly what I was trying to say! Well put. There isn't a person on here that could reply to such an open question in a single thread. If we were to try things would get missed and that would not be a good thing.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Dec 9, 2009)

I have a great deal of experience driving singles - and I have 3 matching appaloosa youngsters that I plan to drive as multiples once they've each been broke to drive singly. I even half-joke to my friends that my goal is to have a matched 6-up with 2 spare horses to drive a stagecoach!





I *KNOW* that I don't know how to hitch or drive multiples, and I will be doing more studying at our local driving shows and with my driving friends (some of whom are professional carriage drivers) before I ever attempt to drive more than one horse - and well before I get a pairs or team harness, or attempt to hitch a pair for ground driving. All those straps have a purpose and I don't have or use many of them in driving singles... and even after many years of casual and interested watching at shows, I don't know enough to keep the right communication going between me and more than one harnessed horse at a time.





I am glad that the words of caution are going on in this thread, and I'm sorry the OP decided to take them all personally. I didn't see ANYTHING in this thread accusing her personally of being too green to drive a pair - but her question of "What is the proper way and what equipment is needed to do this?" (hitch and ground drive a pair) indicates to me that she - _*like me*_... hasn't studied this in person enough.

There is a lot of "jargon" to learn in any new venture... or in a new method of a familiar venture... and driving multiples is no exception. I want to learn the names and purposes of the extra straps and rings and things before I start purchasing equipment! An example of this "jargon" would be like when I learned to handspin wool - it was like the books and online lists were speaking another language when they spoke of how to spin - and I dove in before I'd learned a lot of it! Yes, it forced me to learn more in order to continue to better my spinning, but I bought and sold a lot of wool and equipment - selling at a loss, of course... before I knew enough of the language to even ask the questions I had in a manner that people could [SIZE=10pt]*easily*[/SIZE] answer.

As people have said - there are whole books and Looong articles written to answer these questions... and you can learn the required vocabulary from the books - but for most people, myself included - seeing and feeling are the best ways to learn the proper names, adjustments, etc.

So vague and open questions are MUCH harder to answer online than "Here's a photo of my single driving horse hitched up - what can I adjust or make better?" I don't expect any of my fellow forum participants to sit down and write me a book any time that I ask a question!

ALL that aside... here's a question I haven't asked anyone driving multiples yet. Is hitching a pair in training better done with a 2 wheeled cart and pole or with a 4 wheeled wagon of some kind? (I already know I want one with a cut under for the front wheels!)


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## RhineStone (Dec 9, 2009)

Four wheels and a pole. No exceptions. I know that there has been some on this forum that have said they are going to start their pair with a cart and a pole, but #1 - they either understand the ramifications for doing so, or #2 - don't have a clue about how dangerous this is.

Traditionally, there were two vehicles that were made for a pair to a cart, the Cape Cart and the Curricle. Both had extra adjustments made to the cart and harness to do so. Both were replaced at the time (relatively quickly) by four wheel vehicles, because people (who drove for real to get from Point A to Point B) realized that it was a dangerous proposition to put a pole on a cart. It makes the whole thing EXTREMELY tippy. If the people that used them for real decided it was a bad thing, then those of us that don't drive for real should, too.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Dec 9, 2009)

Thanks - since so many of the cart (easy entry, 2-wheeled) makers offer team poles... I had no idea that it was dangerous - just knew that I hadn't seen any with pairs at the local harness shows.

Is it easier for a team to tip a 2-wheeled cart? Harder to turn correctly?

I keep looking for the wagon I want for my future pairs/teams... I'm thinking of a mini wagonette-type I think... have to save my pennies!

Am I correct in assuming that it might be better to know what wagon (dimensions, hook ups, etc) that I'm gonna hitch a pair to *before* I go harness shopping for multiples harnesses?


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 9, 2009)

It is MUCH easier for a team or pair to tip a 2 wheel cart - WAY too easy! It just should NOT be done.

When you are looking for a wagonette try to find one that is cutunder so that the wheels don't come up against the side of the body of the wagon. The turning radius on these vehicles is much larger than a 2 wheel cart which can practically spin on a dime and for someone not used to it you can get the wheels wedged against the box and the wagon can or will go over as well. If you can't get a cutunder be VERY careful when turning that you keep on a large enough arc to prevent this.

You can use either a breast or a neck collar harness for a pair, tandem, etc. Once you find your vehicle you can make adaptions to your harness to fit the vehicle so it doesn't really matter which you get first but I would take into consideration what you have when you go shopping for either.


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Dec 12, 2009)

"I haven't spent much time on the drivingpairs website, but when I looked today, Hardy Zantke has four articles that average about 10 paragraphs each addressing how to start a pair entitled 101-104. I think what most people here were trying to say is that it is so involved that it just can't be explained effectively in a few paragraphs if Hardy needs four separate LONG articles. If there is a specific question that can be answered, I think forums can be useful. But beyond that, it becomes a cumbersome method of education unless there is a source to redirect to, such as a good book, person, or other website."

"That is exactly what I was trying to say! Well put. There isn't a person on here that could reply to such an open question in a single thread. If we were to try things would get missed and that would not be a good thing."

"So vague and open questions are MUCH harder to answer online than "Here's a photo of my single driving horse hitched up - what can I adjust or make better?" I don't expect any of my fellow forum participants to sit down and write me a book any time that I ask a question!"

That is all I was looking for such as a reference to the above mentioned article. I didn't realize "what is needed to start a pair?" was too vague. I never expected anyone to "write me a book" from the question. Looks like you've got a pretty good discussion going regarding the four wheel vehicles. I have been looking at the mini buckboard wagonettes as well. This is what I was asking to begin with...just the basics.

I think this thread is finally moving forward



.


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 12, 2009)

I have been driving a pair for a number of years, albeit not 'all the time'. I began w/o lessons, though I've since taken a clinic with Hardy Zantke, along with other very knowledgeable ADS whips/judges! What I had going for me was a LOT of prior years of horse training/using experience.

I first joined ADS a number of years ago; was lucky to make some good choices in books from their list of titles-got a good deal of practical help from those books, which include "Make the Most of Carriage Driving", by V. and R. Ellis and J. Claxton-this especially helpful on basics; though the emphasis is on driving in the UK, it is a very useful tome--along w/ "Drive On", Doris Ganton's more 'advanced' book, and the phamplet on Turnout and Appointments from the CAA.

I own three pair vehicles...a back to back custom built English trap, a Glinkowski 'mini-mix' marathon vehicle(not the wagonette style), and an all-wooden buckboard. The trap is cut-under, but does have a 'reach'; the Glink is cut-under, w/ NO reach, and the buckboard has smaller front wheels(that will actually 'pass under' the wagon box), and a reach. Most maneuverable is the Glink. 4 wheeled vehicles will 'generally' have a higher center of gravity, so should have a reasonably 'wide' wheel base,AND, be cut-under w/ NO reach(the reach will still be a 'limiter'), for better stability, other things being equal.

Several years back, a couple began building the CUTEST little 'covered wagons' for minis! When I first saw the ads, I coveted one! BUT, in the course of my ongoing driving education, I realized the vehicles were actually pretty dangerous to drive, because they had a VERY limited ability to turn, due to no cut under, front wheels too large to 'pass under' the box, a high center of gravity and relatively narrow wheel base. When shopping for a vehicle, this is good knowledge to have!!

I'd recommend brakes on any 4 wheel vehicle you may use 'off pavement' or over uneven or hilly terrain. They don't need to be on all four wheels, however. In ADS, it is required to have either breeching or brakes on any 4 wheeled vehicle; sometimes you will see a more elegant turnout w/o breeching, but for practical everyday use, having BOTH is actually a very good idea, especially if the vehicle and its 'load' are possibly relatively heavy, and/or there will be any use over uneven terrain, or at speed.

To keep from writing a book, I recommend you research what a 'reach' is, and why it is pertinent;a 'fifth wheel' and its application; also, a suspended vs a drop pole, a 'crab' vs a pole w/ a yoke, types of brakes, etc.--whether or not you want/need an 'evener', and the like---as these may pertain to the kind of driving and vehicle abilities/limitations YOU would want. Also good to know...at least in the US, wooden wheel diameters are expressed WITHOUT the rubber tire 'inserts'--meaning that if you want wheels that have an 'actual' diameter of 26", you would ask for 24" wooden wheels, as the inserts are 1" 'deep', adding 2" to the 'actual' rolling diameter of the wooden wheels. I *think* it is the same for steel/aluminum wheels in North American-built vehicles, but be sure to ASK!

British/European-made vehicles differ; for instance, my UK-built Bennington cart has wheels that are @ 24" TOTAL diameter(they are expressed in cm), and the stated diameter INCLUDES the rubber inserts...on the Benny, the rubber is rounded, and nearly 2" in width. The Glinkowski is similarly expressed, and similar in width of the wheel/rubber inserts, though it is a 'flat' insert.

A crucial part of pair equipment is the pair reins, and the proper adjustment thereof; the Ellis-Claxon book refers to 'draught'(draft) and 'coupling' reins, and their proper adjustment is especially crucial, for it can affect how the pair works/pulls. This is an area where an experienced pair instructor would be MOST helpful, IMO.

Know that the most important 'match' between pair horses is probably how they 'stride' together--not their color, not even their height/build, but whether they move similarly at the various gaits--AND whether they 'get along' w/ each other, and are equally willing workers.

As for using a pole for a cart...I actually bought one for my Frontier for the first 'drives' of my pair(both of whom have always been trained as singles first; I have had several different 'pairings'; the only one I ever had a issue with was the least-experienced as a single; he 'leaned' to the outside in a pair hookup. I sold him for a single, so didn't really have to try to 'work him out' of that behavior!) I believe it was 'OK' for the initial and very basic pair hookups, but would not recommend it for 'regular' use.There is actually a

There actually is a pair cart that has been, perhaps still is, used for Freisians in their homeland...have seen video of it, but don't know how well it actually 'works'. The few configurations I know of--the curricle, and the Cape Cart, which is said to have actually worked fairly well?-were 'special' set-ups--one CD-Ler spent a great deal of time, research, and I believe, money, having a Cape cart 'replicated' for her mammoth mule pair...so it's not really what the 'average' driver would probably want to try....

As for pair harness...I got the one I use 'everyday' from The Carriage House, in FL. It is a beta biothane, utilitarian, ordered it with the 'parts' to be able to switch it to two 'singles. It is made by the same fellow who makes Country Carriages' similar beta harnesses..Yoni.

There are several good sources for mini pair harness nowadays. You do need to know what kind of ends are on the swingletrees to 'match' up w/ the traces. I'd also recommend buckle-in traces, AND the use of quick release snap shackles, at least for everyday usage.

This is far from a 'complete' listing, but is part of what it can help to know about vehicles for pairs and other side-by-side multiple hitches(and 'abbreviated', it's still nearly a book!!

Margo


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Dec 12, 2009)

Bless you Margo



.

Could you PM me the website or contact info for Yoni? I'd sure appreciate it.

Lori


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 12, 2009)

I don't think there is one; from what I understand, he is Amish, and they seldom have websites. You might try contacting Country Carriages or The Carriage House? Both have websites; just google for them. I have no idea whether he sells 'direct' or only through dealers. Both mentioned here have good reputations, based on customer comments I've read.

Margo


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## susanne (Dec 12, 2009)

My understanding is that Yonie does sell direct to the public.

Someone posted this contact information on either the MiniDriving list or CD-L. I haven't tried it, and it was a year or so back, but no harm in giving it a try.

yonie harness

610-273-7370

Ask for Jonathan and he answers the phone only between 12 and 12:30' but will return a message if left at other time


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 12, 2009)

The Camptown/Chimacum Pair Sport Harness is also very nice.




That's the one I'll be ordering, with a few modifications. It is lined with sealed leather so IMO is more comfortable for the horses than the Yoni harnesses I've handled. On the other hand, Claudette of Country Carriages has a new model that you can buy lined in waffle weave material and it is NICE!! You have to ask for that lining, but it makes all the difference. I would consider buying one from her if it had that lining.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Dec 13, 2009)

What has been said about choosing a proper four-wheel vehicle is good. We just purchased out first four-wheeler with brakes, albeit for a "big" horse. The front brakes were not working properly, and my husband had to completely disassemble them. We think that the previous owner put hydraulic fluid in the container instead of brake fluid. Nevertheless, an educated pair driver also needs to know how to maintain that vehicle, and there is twice as much vehicle to maintain. Brakes...good, brakes not working....bad. It's amazing how much better the wheels roll when the brakes are not stuck!


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