# Dead foals



## pepperhill (Mar 25, 2009)

I was hoping folks could brain storm and come up with ideas on why some miniature foals don't get out of the bag when born? I am referring to the perfectly normal foals, that are kicking inside the mom, right up to the point that they are born..... and suffocate. I know the way to prevent it from happening is to be there at the birthings. My issue is why does it happen in the first place?

No one around here seems to have any ideas why this happens except fescue in the hay has been mentioned. Does it have to be fescue? Are there other variables involved? Do certain vaccines cause it? Feeding alfalfa? Is it genetic? Certain de-wormers?

I just wonder if anyone out there has any thoughts on this. Thanks


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## targetsmom (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't have much experience with foaling, but all of it has been with dead foals. Last year we had a mare abort at 9 months with a horrible dystocia from a breech presentation. She ended up at Tufts Veterinary Hospital where they were pretty sure it was from Rhino/herpes and they warned me to keep her away from our other bred mare. Of course the mares had been together up until then and there really wasn't any way to seprate them. When the other mare did not abort right away, we thought we were safe. But although she carried to term, she managed to foal while my back was turned (quite literally) and the foal did not get out of the sack. She also delivered the placenta with the foal. In my research about this (after kicking myself thoroughly) I read in one of the foaling books that Rhino can do this. Rhino does not always cause abortions- the mare can carry to term and the foal can be weak/compromised or even born dead, so it does not get out of the sack. I don't know for sure if that is what happened, but I do know I am giving the Pneumabort shots this year.

So short answer, it appears that Rhino can cause this.


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## Genie (Mar 25, 2009)

It happens more with miniatures than the full sized horse in my opinion.

Fescue isn't an issue in our area and my thought is that some bags obviously just don't tear as easliy.

It may be genetics, since our horses are handled, fed and treated in a similar manner.

The big horses seem to stand fairly soon after birthing and maybe that tears the bag.


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## Karin - NaKar Miniatures (Mar 25, 2009)

There can be several reasons for the foal not getting out of the sac. In the 14 years that I have been breeding mini's I have found that the most common reasons are:

1. The mare is so exhausted from labor that she doesn't get up and just lays there.

2. The foal is still actually asleep when born and thus, doesn't move to break the sac.

3. The thickness of the sac can be a problem. Especially with really tiny foals. I have been told that the sac thickness is just like a full size horse. I have only dealt with minis, so I don't know if this is correct.

That is one of the reasons why it is so important to be there when the mare foals. A mare can foal several times without assistance or being watched, but there is always that ONE time that something can go wrong. If you go out and just happen to "find" a foal you better count yourself lucky!


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## Maxi'sMinis (Mar 25, 2009)

I have only had 2 mini foals, but with both I had to rip the bag open. It was very tough and slippery. I had on exam gloves but had to grasp the bag with a clean dry towel to rip it open.

I have delivered a number of species were I needed to rip open the bag, dogs, cats, an orpaned deer that I saw the mother get hit by a car, even mice.

The biggies I have seen deliver were almost like and ejection, very forceful, some of the mares even stood up during the delivery and boy was that a drop to the ground. We had to hold the baby up from falling all the way to the ground. This always broke the membrane.

I think with the minis it is much less forceful almost needing help on most births to pass through the hips so you don't get that force against the membrane.

The smaller animals the membranes were all tough and slippery and the animal would have died without assistance. I think it is a universal issue with lots of species that don't have the size and weight behind them to break through the membrane on their own.

Just my experience.


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## Genie (Mar 25, 2009)

Karin - NaKar Miniatures said:


> There can be several reasons for the foal not getting out of the sac. In the 14 years that I have been breeding mini's I have found that the most common reasons are:
> 1. The mare is so exhausted from labor that she doesn't get up and just lays there.
> 
> 2. The foal is still actually asleep when born and thus, doesn't move to break the sac.
> ...


All very good reasons and makes sense. I think the mare being exhausted and not getting up quickly is likely the most common occurrence since that was what I noticed most of all, that they usually stay down much longer than the full sized horse.


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## Versatility Farm & Training (Mar 25, 2009)

I have experience foaling minis and full size horses, and from that I know the sac is the same thickness for both, putting the minis at a disadvantage. The foals have a tough time getting out of the sack themselves, personally I think anytime a mini foal gets out of the sack without human help it is due to the mother, not the foal. Minis are also bred to be more domesticated than the fullsize breeds, so they have less "wild instinct". Most full size mares will stand right away (which breaks the sack) and inspect the foal and begin eating the sack to "destroy the evidence" if there was a preditor around. Minis are so domesticated that they don't have that instict as often, more if there are other horses around they feel they need to protect their foal from. But from my experience the minis tend ot lay there for a long time before getting up the first time, and sometimes when they do get up they still are nto far enough from the ground to rip the sack open unless she walks away.


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## Erica (Mar 25, 2009)

All good points mentioned.....

I have also wondered or observed that of course most of these mini mares have personalities were they are big pets, more passive and spoiled.....like this last mare I foaled was a show mare who was up being pampered for over two years, she foaled without a hitch, and of course I break the sack as soon as I see feet and help the mares out just because I'm there, but the sack wasn't overly thick or anything, I think the foal could have gotten out of it, but the mare just laid there for at least 30 mins, foal was already up and walking around.

While a few mares I have are much more flightly and worriesome, ones that might not have had as much human interaction earlier on in life and they are ones that foal and jump up within just a matter of a minute. Of course I prefer my mares to stay down and let all that blood pass through the cord, but these mares that jump up I think have more of the natural midset as if they were out fending for themselves like out in the wild they have to get up and take care of their foal.....where some of our "babies" when they foal are more like oh mom is here to help....

edited: Looks like I was posting the same time as the above, but same thing I was trying to say


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## Jill (Mar 25, 2009)

I agree with a lot of what's been said and would add that while I do not yet have "a lot" of foaling experience, when my first mini foal (my first newborn baby anything) was born in 2001, I could not get over how thick and tough the sack seemed and it really made an impression on me. I felt from my very first foaling experience that if I'd not been RIGHT there as I was, that filly would not have made it out of the sack. She made it, oh boy... she now is an 8yo trick trained mare and "big" pet to a woman not far from our place




:yes


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 25, 2009)

My understanding is that the placenta in a mini mare is the same thickness as her larger counterparts. In a full-sized horse the foal stretches the sack out in its last months of growth so it is thinner and easy to break but the mini foal never gets big enough to stretch it.

Leia


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## Riverdance (Mar 25, 2009)

Yes, it seems that Mini foal sacks are the same thickness as full size horses. Having raised both, I too notice that the full size horses will get up right after the foal is born and sniff and lick it. The Mini mares tend to continue to lie down. Which is what I feel is the main reason for foals being left in their sacks.

When a mare foals outside with other mares around, the other mares tend to come over and sniff around, forcing the new mom to get up and break the sack. We coddle them so much, that they are inside for days (if not weeks) before they foal. Under cameras and alarm systems. Right now I am watching two. The weather has been nasty since Monday, so these two mares have been inside since Sunday night. They are bored, as am I, but I do not dare let them out to possibly foal in the mud and water. :arg! This could go on for days still!

What I notice more though, is foals getting hung up inside their dams with the Minis. Espcecially maiden mares and smaller mares.


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## funnybunny (Mar 25, 2009)

Proportionately, the sacks are harder for the minis to break. The sacks might be the same size as the biggies, but a biggier has more strength due to a proportionately bigger size and size of legs/hooves.

Which can kick harder and with more strength - a 120 lb. big foal or a 25 lb. mini?

Also the mini mares often seem to rest a while before they get up, while big mares frequently hop right up.

So previous things that have been said are, I believe, true.

That is why it is so important to try to BE THERE when a mini is born. I can't stand to think of losing one, but sometimes, if they are real early or we don't know they are ready, it just happens and we are not prepared.


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## Doobie (Mar 25, 2009)

I had been told that corn makes the sac thicker...

Not sure if its true or not but I dont feed corn just to be sure!


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## Candice (Mar 25, 2009)

Interesting topic. Some great points have been made, but one thing that everyone is leaving out is the fact that this is a "man made" breed and gravity just isn't working with the miniature horse the way it is with the larger breeds. The mares are smaller and more compact and the foals don't have the weight so less force and pressure and that sac just isn't going to pop open.

I also think the mares (most) are accustomed to assistance and expect it, whether we're physically present or not. They're not dumb. They learn. The problems happen when they expect us to be there and we're not. I think that the mares with the more aloof personalities have more "wild instinct", as a few have pointed out, and I think this correlates with pain tolerance. That is not to say the mare is not experiencing pain, childbirth (foaling) is painful, but she may be less reluctant to let it show and will better tend to her foal. Just a thought.

One observation here last year is that the mare does not need to jump to her feet to tend to her foal. I had a mare reel around while still laying down and clean her foal. I already had the sac broken and was cleaning his nostrils. She would have had him out of there had I not been there. She has that aloof personality and would be thrilled to have nothing more to do with people. I think its a whole combination of factors.


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## SSMFarm (Mar 26, 2009)

OK understand that I am no expert at foaling by no means. I have one under camera now that seems close to me that may be still standing there infoal this time next month. I wanted to bring up the "other" side of the story just to see what ya'll think. I have a good friend that was around when Dell Tera Farm was started. He is an "old timer" in the mini world. While some things that he considers just nature I say are a bit extreme but he has said that a lot times in the fields older mares will assist younger mares with foaling. He says that some have foals that aren't as active to tear sac. Some sacs seem to be a bit tougher etc. Which almost makes sense..we say all the time that they are herd animals. They almost seem to have a sense about what is going on in their "community".What do ya'll think of this? Well, I had an experience that it actually happened. I realize that this may be a one in a million but I thought that I would take the time to share. I had a mare with no bag and she was so small (in width) I had no idea she was anywhere close to foaling. I got up one morning to find her still laying down...I must have just missed foaling by 10-15 minutes. The foal was also laying down and had been a red bag. There was another mare there with them both. Could the mare who gave birth actually have foaled and busted the sac in time for the foal to still be alive? Or was the other mare there to assist in some way or "hoof" thru the sac to save the foal once it was on the ground? I don't know? I hope this isn't rambling and is on topic just thought that I would share the experience. I would be interested to know what ya'll think.


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## Minimor (Mar 26, 2009)

> No one around here seems to have any ideas why this happens except fescue in the hay has been mentioned. Does it have to be fescue? Are there other variables involved? Do certain vaccines cause it? Feeding alfalfa? Is it genetic? Certain de-wormers?


Well, I would say it's not anything to do with feeding alfalfa--we feed alfalfa, and in most cases I've noticed that the sacs here have been gossamer thin--I do peel them off the foal's nose right away, but all it takes is a touch and the sac splits open. If the foal is going to break it open on its own, all it takes is a flip of the little nose, and its through the sac.

The only time we would have had a problem was the year we had the mineral deficiency in our horses. The one foal was born & I ripped the sac off--I wouldn't say the sac was so very thick, but not as thin as I would consider normal--but the biggest problem was the foal was very very weak and had no "try" in her. Had I not been there I'm quite sure she wouldn't have gotten out of the sac & I'd have found her dead...

That same year another breeder here had a number of losses due to the foals not getting out of the sac. She had them on camera & would run for the barn, but still didn't have time to save them--she was just crushed. However, she also had a number of others that were dystocias and had leg issues, and her vet finally determined that she--like us--had an iodine deficiency. It's believed that is why some of the foals were dying in the sac--they were very weak and quite probably would not have survived even if she had been right there on the spot as they came out. After the losses of the early foals she started her mares on a mineral supplement that was high in iodine, and after a couple of weeks she was no longer losing foals. The mineral supplement made a huge difference.

In cattle it's a known fact that if a producer is having calves die in the sac, it's due to a mineral deficiency. (which mineral(s) I don't know) With family and friends that raise beef cattle, I know more than one producer that has had a problem with this--and in every case when the cows have been given a particular mineral mix it has put an end to the problem of the calves not getting out of the sac. If minerals can make such a difference in cattle I wouldn't be surprised to learn that minerals also make a difference in horses--especially after our own experience in 2004.


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## Tony (Mar 26, 2009)

When I explain the problem I ask people to imagine blowing up a balloon. If you blow it up just a little bit, then try to break it by poking it with a finger. It won't break. Then blow it up as far as you dare without popping it. Then poke it with your finger and it will easily pop. Think of the amniotic sack as a balloon, it gets stretched very thin over a big horse foal, but is hardly inflated around a miniature foal.

Simplistic, but it usually makes the point.


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## Candice (Mar 26, 2009)

Tony, I like it, Short, simple and to the point!!


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## MyBarakah (Mar 26, 2009)

Minimor...... I think that is a VERY good comment.... I really wounder if that's doesn't have something to do with a mineral defficiency..... that seems to make the most sense out of most of it......


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## Jean_B (Mar 26, 2009)

I noticed I had more issues with thick sacs when I had a higher proportion of corn in my feed. So now I make sure that the feed has a VERY low corn content. Top dressing with mineral supplements has also made a difference - but you really MUST have your soil conditions tested before applying minerals willy nilly. If you buy your hay - have your hay tested. Just contact your county's Ag Extension office for info on how to do this.

Also - I have to work, and I'm here alone. So if I think a mare is going to foal during the day - I put her in a paddock with just one other mare and there are horses in other paddocks on both sides. This encourages the new momma to get to her feet immediately in order to protect her new baby. Can't tell you how many times I've come home from work to find a brand new, dry and fluffy baby running around .... and have NEVER lost one using this method.


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## blueprintminis (Mar 26, 2009)

Have you ever had a mare deliver her foal, stand up and start to turn around to lick it and have the placenta plop out onto the bedding while it is still attached to the foal by the umbilicus? If so, then the mare had premature placental separation. This is not the norm in full sized horses. It usually takes 30-60 minutes or longer for full sized mares to pass the placenta. When the placenta comes out right away or within minutes of the delivery of the foal then the placenta was already separating from the wall of the uterus while the foal was being delivered. As the placenta separates, the oxygen supply is reduced. The more separation, the less oxygen getting to the foal. As the oxygen level in the foal declines the foal become "sedated". It is actually starting to die from lack of oxygen to its brain while it is being delivered. These are the foals that do not move when they hit the straw. That is why the birth sac does not break. For some reason, mini mares placentas tend to separate earlier than their larger counterparts. Interestingly, draft horse mares are the most likely to have retained placentas (their placentas don't want to separate from the uterine wall even after the foal is expelled). This tendency for early placental separation is the number one reason it is so important for someone to be present at delivery time to ensure the birth sac is pulled away from the foal's face as soon as the head is out of the mare. Yes, other factors can lead to an extra thick/tough birth sac, but a foal that has been deprived of oxygen for too long during the birth process won't be moving at all so it doesn't matter how thick or thin the birth sac is.


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## Joanne (Mar 27, 2009)

I agree with blueprints minis.

We see a lot of miniatures where the placenta comes out minutes after the birth or right when they stand up. These foals may be too oxygen deprived to get out.

The whole birthing process may be so exhausting to these little ones that they are just to tired to fight their way out.


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## pepperhill (Mar 28, 2009)

Thank you so much for all your ideas. I have done a lot of research on this and just wondered what the rest of you thought. I just recently had a local vet and a research specialist from the University brainstorming on this as well. The vet just called me back with their thoughts. They discussed a lengthy list of illnesses, environmental facters such as mold in the hay, or bacteria in the water etc. Their final thoughts on the issue were a combination of what two of you suggested.

They thought that there was a mineral deficiency- probably calcium, phosphorus, or magnesium. (They didn't mention iodine, but we might as well add that one into the mix) (way to go, Minimor!) A deficiency in these minerals causes the mare to foal slowly. That brings us to the second half of the problem. Minis have placentas that separate early. If the mare is already foaling slowly, and the placenta starts to separate early, by the time the new foal hits the ground, it is already dead, instead of just sedated. (You hit right on it Blueprintminis)

Either one of these issues can cause problems, but a combination of the two is deadly. It turns out that even if you are supplying mineral for your horses, it may not be the right kind. Make sure you don't skimp on the mineral you buy. Read the label carefully. The calciumhosphorus ratio needs to be 1.3 to 1. Have it free choice all the time.

It is really heartbreaking when this happens. I hope this info prevents this from happening to anyone out there!

Best wishes!


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## MBhorses (May 1, 2013)

I came aross this topic.I think it is very helpful.We just lost our first foal because it didn't get out of the sac.I had foaling alarm on the mare and everything, but the alarm didn't go off so I was there.I was checking her every hour then when I went to check at 12 I found the filly.I have been so sick to my stomach beating myself up.My daughter and I were taking turns it makes us so sick.This was this mares five foal




She was a very pretty med hat filly. I love my minis like my children losing one is so hard



I try everything to make sure I am there and have foaling system and all.


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## targetsmom (May 2, 2013)

So sorry for your loss Melissa. We lost two foals this way (in 2008 and 2011) and both times the placenta was delivered WITH the foal. I had heard that rhino, which is known to cause abortions, can also cause this to happen and we suspect that was the case for both of these losses. We had a foal born today, mare wearing alarm, I was out there feeding at the time, and I almost missed it. She foaled mostly standing up, never set the alarm off and if I hadn't seen her yearling son staring in her stall window I would have missed it. Mares can be VERY sneaky!! Also, this mare was nowhere near ready 14 hours before she foaled when milk pH was over 7.0 and baby was still not in position.


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## Minimor (May 2, 2013)

In truth it is entirely normal for the placenta to arrive right after the foal-nearly all of mine, mini and Morgans--have been this way. it has nothing to do with whether or not the foal can get out of the sac--mine born this way have had no trouble breaking the sac themselves; they are neither weak nor oxygen deprived. I can name a number of breeders (big horse) who will tell you it is normal for a placenta to arrive right on the heels of the foal.

In any case, I'm very sorry for your loss Melissa


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## rabbitsfizz (May 2, 2013)

If the placenta is the same thickness as a BH then why do most foals get born "normally" ie the bag breaks as the head comes through the passage and peels back over the shoulders as the foal is born?

I do not think it is that simple, not at all. I have had instances when I had the Arabs where people have found full sized foals in the bag, unable to get out. I have been there when a mare I had had her foal, standing up and the whole lot came at once, foal, placenta etc and the mare did not even look round. If I had not beaten the land speed record up the field and bitten into the bag to open it (UGH!!) the foal would have died- imagine attempting to punch your way out of a polythene bag with gloves on your hands and socks on your feet! Even the most active foal is unlikely to be able to do it. What tears the bag is the foal pushing against it with it's nose and feet, whilst the bag is firmly anchored to the placenta, by the umbilical, which is firmly anchored to the womb. If one of these links fails and you are not there to help the foal is doomed. This is why I never, ever hesitate to "interfere" better to interfere than have a dead foal, anytime.

I think, possibly, the placenta coming away with the foal, is more prevalent in Minis- I am not sure I ever had it happen with the Arabs, or the Welsh, always within a couple of hours, but not actually _with_ the foal. Even within half an hour gives the placenta plenty of time to detach normally- it is these _with _the foal detachings that worry me most.


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## Matt73 (May 2, 2013)

Blueprintminis, both of my late mare's, Lexus, foals had placentas that slipped out as they were lying there; I had to break the cord myself. Both foals came fairly quickly (and that makes all the difference, im sure) and were very active (Levi came out whinnying lol). And both were up and nursing within 20 mins. I'm not saying you're not right (that's probably the case many times when the placenta comes right out after the foal), but I guess I was lucky.


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## Joanne (May 2, 2013)

I am glad that this topic was brought up and revisited.

In the throws of birthing it is always important to check your electronic equiptment and make sure the batteries are fresh and working. We take off the halter at night and test it before putting it back on the mare. Mares that lay flat frequently while sleeping drain the batteries, and of course the pager batteries need to be new as well.

Having said that, a power outage (we had one during a birth this year) as well as mares not laying flat during foaling (such as standing up) will not set off the alarm.

Mare Stare has saved many of my foals by letting me know my mare was foaling in advance of my pager going off. These few minites advanced notice has allowed me to be there to reposition and help the foal out of the sac. I would highly recommend it to anyone foaling our horses.


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## HGFarm (May 2, 2013)

Have not read all the posts but will pass on what my vet shared. The sac/afterbirth, etc.. did not 'downsize' with the Minis. It's the same consistancy of a big horse. When you have a 100 pound foal being pushed out of the back end of a mare- it has size and weight to help in breaking through the sac on it's own. Compare that with a tiny 20 lb foal of a Mini. Just not really the impact there to help break it- even when trying to raise it's head after birth. I have had sacs a couple of times that were so tough I could barely cut through them. The foal would NEVER have gotten out if I had not been there. Some have broken easily on their own, but were thinner sacs without being so dense.

I try to attend ALL my births to make sure this does not happen. In about 1996, my first mini foal suffocated in the sac because the mare foaled when I was not home during the day. I was not new to horses, but new to Minis and had no idea. I have never forgiven myself and have taken steps so hopefully that will never happen again.


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## Kelsey (May 2, 2013)

I ALMOST always have to break the sac on the minis. I think it is a weight thing as well as the minis are exhausted and just lay there rather then get up.


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## Tremor (May 2, 2013)

I think that this is one of the setbacks of breeding miniatures, the fact that we have a higher increase in dystocias and foals who aren't heavy enough to break the sac.

I just think that's sad. Is there the same problems in Shetlands? (I'm talking like, 40"+) I have never bred, owned, or foaled out a Shetland mare, so I am curious.


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## Minimor (May 2, 2013)

Shetlands seem to be very good at foaling unassisted.

In actual fact though, my 36" mares, the foals have had no problems with thick sacs--they have, all but one, been gossamer thin. As the shoulders clear the mares pelvis the foal moves its head and the sac peels off the nose. I have TOUCHED the nose--just a fingertip touch--and the sac peeled away.

The one exception....the mare had a severe mineral deficiency. The sac was thick and the foal was weak. She did not live--even though I got the sac off her quickly. I do believe that thick sacs are an indication of some other issue...in cattle it is a well known fact that thick sacs are mineral related.


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## Tab (May 4, 2013)

I have a theory. Perhaps the cell membrane that becomes the amniotic sac is the same thickness no matter what breed or size the horse. Perhaps it doesn't stretch/grow as far in minis because they are so small. Just another reason for being annoyingly diligent from day 300. Bad things still happen, but odds are so much better all around if you're there. The one delivery I did not attend (large pony foal) resulted in trauma and anguish down the road. So many things could have been different, starting with telling me the mare had been bred or exposed, but that is neither here nor there. My heart goes out to all of you who have done everything you could to be there and this has happened to you!


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## happy appy (May 5, 2013)

On the foal that I just had born at 352 day, the sac was thick. I had to struggle to break it and was heading to the scissors when it finally broke open. I don't think that the foal would of made it out without help. In fact I had to help the mare because he was big and she was struggling to get past his head. He has a fine head too. I needed to make sure that I was pulling one leg in front of the other so that the shoulders would be on a diagonal to make the chest narrower to pass easier.


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## Barnmother (May 5, 2013)

Is there any correlation to number of days gestation and the "thickness" or the sac? Or perhaps the amount of amniotic fluid and the sac thickness, for example the longer the gestation the less fluid therefore the sac begins to mummify making it more difficult to break.

Might be interesting to collect some data and do an "informal" study between owners. (Of course we'd have to have a pretty accurate record of conception so probably wouldn't work on pasture bred horses without some careful record keeping.) If that turns out to be the case then the increasing number of days in gestation the increasing attention that needs to be paid to a mare you are waiting on to foal up to and including a constant survelliance by someone 24/7.

My mini mare that foal in 2011 had a very thin sack, broke very easily although I peeled it back. The placenta arrived within 20 minutes after delivery and after the mare stood up. I don't remember any difference between it and any of my big horse foals that I delivered (Arabians, Saddlebreds and Thoroughbreds); in fact it might have been thinner.


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## happy appy (May 5, 2013)

Sugar had a huge amount of water. She flooded the stall and into the next under the dividing wall. When the last one foals I will have an other one to compare it to. Cheerio is sitting at day 355 today.


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## HGFarm (May 5, 2013)

I have not noticed any links as to how thick the sac will be. I have had the same mares, on the same diet... and it seems to vary from year to year.


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## minie812 (May 6, 2013)

I noticed this year has been horrible for lost foals and even the mares. I tend to think that the drought in our area has created poor hay and mineral deficient grasses. I have also noticed as everyone strives for the more refined miniatures that the mares do not seem to have the hips and longer bodies. Everyone wants that "refined-short body" and have bred to taller Shetland types. I wonder sometimes that we are creating our own foaling issues. Just a thought.


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## rabbitsfizz (May 6, 2013)

If this theory about the sac were true then I should have had all this when I was breeding under 30" (real) Shetlands- I did not have it and I never had it, so I do not think it can be the answer. Most of my foals break the sac themselves- they are not born in it, they break it normally, as they come out of the mare-I have only ever had one foal born in the sac and that would not have got out alive if I had not actually been there. As I said I have heard of this in BH's as well, not just Minis- so again, not unique. I don't know what the answer is but it is not as simple as "the sac does not change in consistency as the size drops" we don't see Shetland foals (and we do have some tiny Shetlands) being born unable to get out of the bag. We need to look at other possibilities......


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## minie812 (May 6, 2013)

So you don't think that smaller-shorter backs and more refined hindends do not contribute to foals getting stuck or hungup inside? Tight inside so foals cannot move into position?Legs getting hung up or foals not being able to bring their heads and legs into position? It is just my opinion but I think it does affect foaling. I have a 28" mare that foals without problems but she has a longer body and bigger hip. If she was more refined I would not even attempt to breed her. Again that is my opinion.


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## Tab (May 7, 2013)

What about over or under nourishment? Could there be a difference between fitness levels and sac thickness?


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