# Changed to breeching and now cart is not right



## New mini (Mar 14, 2012)

I have changed Lance from the tie down straps at the girth to breeching. I want to drive him on hills and think this is the safer way to go. I can not post pictures right now as I am the only one at the barn that is driving and the people that are there when I drive are only the people who clean.

So this is what is happening. I believe that I have the breeching at the correct spot. I am finding that the cart shafts will now go up when Lance backs. I am also finding that the straps that attach to the cart on one side are coming loose. I have no idea why this is happening when it did not happen before. Any idea without pictures. I need to try and solve this myself. I will get my husband to look at things this weekend after he gets home. He travels 5 days a week..


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## R Whiteman (Mar 14, 2012)

IMO breeching is most definitely the way to go on a pleasure driving horse, especially if you are doing hill work. That said, you still have to have some way of "tieing" down your shafts, or they will rise when your cart goes out of balance, even if only for a split second. We use breeching with our show type harness. You simply add it to the already existing parts. Use the tie downs as you would if you didn't have the breeching, just perhaps not as tightly. On our CDE harness, we have a "tie-down" that is buckled to the girth from the shaft loop, but does not "wrap" the shaft. The cart shafts "float" within the shaft loops, but cannot lift more than the diameter of the loop. With the CDE harnesses, the breeching is mandatory (or some kind of shaft stop) or the cart will slide right on through the loops when you stop. You will find yourself sitting with your chest against your horse's bum (if you are lucky enough that he doesn't kick you into the next county).

Many people have mistakenly eliminated their wrap straps and found out the hard way that they are a really important part of the harness.

Good luck with your driving...

Dorothy


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## New mini (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks. I will use the strap wraps too. Did not know that I had to. When I drove the larger hosrse there were no tie downs just breeching. I learned something today. Again thank you


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 14, 2012)

If you left off the wrap straps thinking it was an "either/or" proposition then yes, that would explain your problem. Wrap straps, French tugs, Tilbury tugs, open tugs, quick hitch harness racing setups...all have the important function of holding the shafts at a stable height. The tugs hold the shafts up, the wrap straps or other overgirth system hold them down, and together they keep the outside shaft close to the horse's side during turns so the inside shaft doesn't push into his body as strongly. Where we run into problems is assigning that anchoring system the _additional_ task of acting as brakes, something it was never meant to do.






Here's a diagram I sometimes hand out at harnessing clinics explaining the basic functions of the harness parts. (Sorry if the yellow text is hard to read, it came out better in print!



)






What we want to avoid is asking the horse to hold back the weight of the cart using his withers and elbows. Ouch! The wrap straps still need to be there to keep the shafts from flying up but need only be tight enough to accomplish that goal and no tighter. The breeching should be adjusted so that it comes into play and takes up the weight of the vehicle before the shafts push the tugs forward and transfer the pressure to the saddle.

There should be a smooth swing from the traces pulling the vehicle forward to a moment of inertia as the horse slows to the breeching coming into play and stopping the vehicle without any loosey-goosey slamming around or shifting of the shafts. Same thing going forward- the breeching loosens, the tugs swing slightly transferring the motion as the horse steps off and the traces come into play before the horse has to start pulling from the saddle.

Everything works together on a harness.





Leia


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## New mini (Mar 15, 2012)

Wish I had that diagram when I started driving. The pieces and parts were never really explained to me in that depth. I can not read the yellow but got what that part did. I was thinking either/or so now I will put the straps back on the shafts and have a happier mini. Thanks for the very good explaniation of all the parts and functions.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2012)

I should have just typed it out for you since I knew it was illegible- sorry!



The yellow says, "The SUPPORT System includes the harness saddle, tug loops, overgirth, backstrap and crupper. Together these pieces anchor the harness and keep the shafts properly positioned."

As a new driver faced with that morass of straps I found it much easier to remember what harness part went where and how tight it should be if I kept in mind the function the harness fulfills. Facts mean more if placed in a context that relates to something you already know! So start by learning the things a harness _does _(communicate, push the weight, stop the weight, hold everything on the horse), then which parts do those things, then the right way to adjust them comes almost naturally since you already understand what you're trying to accomplish.

Then again, I'm an obsessively logical person. Anyone who knows me knows I cling to "Start at A and proceed to B" when I'm feeling lost! LOL

Leia


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## Becky Horat (Mar 15, 2012)

A question regarding show harnesses without breeching.....How are they able to back without the cart pushing up into their rear end? I see they will also use no breeching in Driving Obstacle. Isn't it hard to do all the backing, etc. with no breeching. Just curious, since I'm considering showing AMHA this year and would like to eventually do Driving Obstacle.


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## New mini (Mar 16, 2012)

Lance was a show mini before I bought him. He never had a problem backing without the breeching. I beleive and I may be wrong as I am new to this that the tie down straps would be the things that hold the cart when backing. Lance is having a few minor problems backing with the breeching. With just practice he is becoming better now. Hopefully someone with experience will answer this too


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 16, 2012)

Becky,

Breeching is allowed in AMHA obstacle driving classes. I attached my breeching for that class, and I wasn't the only one. I don't think some of the obstacles could have been done without breeching. However, I was using a regular Jerald cart; perhaps with the lighter show carts it would be more workable.


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## littlehoof (Mar 16, 2012)

Hobbyhorse, thank you so much your diagram helped very much!


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## Margo_C-T (Mar 16, 2012)

Unless the rules have changed dramatically, there is NO prohibition against using breeching in ANY AMHA driving class.( The one 'exception' MIGHT be Single Pleasure Driving, which has in effect developed into more of a 'Fine Harness' class over time, while the 'Country' Pleasure is now where the 'Single' Pleasure used to be, and the newest, "Classic' Country Pleasure?-*think* that's AMHA's title for it...is what 'Country' Pleasure was, originally.)

In any event, once I learned more about driving, I began to use harness w/ breeching in virtually all driving classes, rail or otherwise(once the 'high-stepping, and speed, became the 'in' thing, I no longer had anything that would place in 'Single Pleasure'; before that, I did still go without breeching for that particular class, though I wasn't happy to do so.)This was some years back; at that time, I believe I was the first, or one of same, who used breeching, PERIOD, in ANY AMHA driving classes, obstacle or otherwise...and when I did my job properly, I was generally rewarded for it, even as a 'rebel' using 'real' driving equipment!

It unquestionably IS more difficult for a horse w/o breeching to back the vehicle. It is 'gotten by with' much of the time due to a variety of widely-variable factors, to include: levelness/firmness of ground of arena, temperment/level of actual training/experience of horse,the short duration of the back performed, the weight of driver(most 'show' carts are fairly close in weight). Some horses are more tolerant of discomfort than others. In breeching-less,light and narrow,'show' harness, the horse must back the vehicle and its passenger using the harness saddle...there IS nothing else for them to use. There is certainly an element of discomfort, if not outright pain, in this, for the horse, I believe. Also IMO, these factors...one or more of them...are why we too often see horses rear, sometimes even going over, when asked to back in the line-up at the end of a class.


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## TMR (Mar 16, 2012)

Also, another big difference between driving with breeching and without, is the tightness of the saddle. In the showring without breeching, most are cranking up the saddle girths very tight so that the saddle doesn't move when they back the cart. Also, many are pulling off the saddle as well, instead of the breastcollar because they feel if they pull off the breastcollar it intefers with the shoulder action which is why you see many show pictures with loose traces at the trot. When you use breeching you can drive with a much looser girth and most who use breeching also are using the breastcollar to push into, to pull the cart not the saddle.

Just a little more info to go with the discussion.

Donna


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## Becky Horat (Mar 16, 2012)

Thank you Donna!!! Have noticed very loose traces while horses are definately pulling and wondering what the deal was. Thanks for explaining that to me!!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 21, 2012)

TMR said:


> Also, many are pulling off the saddle as well, instead of the breastcollar because they feel if they pull off the breastcollar it intefers with the shoulder action which is why you see many show pictures with loose traces at the trot.


This has always driven me nuts. That is what the singletree is for! The whole point of a singletree is to make it so the horse's shoulders are not restricted by the breastcollar but he can pull properly from his chest instead of his middle. If your singletree moves properly and you've given him time to build muscle it shouldn't be a problem. (Of course nobody actually DOES that in the show ring, so I don't know why I'm surprised. It takes several years of steady work to develop enough muscle to show their true action in harness.)

Leia


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## R Whiteman (Mar 21, 2012)

Easy ladies...what started as question of harnessing has turned into a bit of show ring bashing...again!

Horses can be driven in the show ring without breeching and very probably even without breastplates (but NOBODY wants to go there). It is a function of the footing, the weight of cart and all those things previously mentioned; certainly the size of the driver is also an issue. But I can tell you that in the showring, it IS possible for a horse to quite easily back without the breeching. Breeching will not fix all the horses that rear and throw themselves in the line-up. First you have to fix the unforgiving hands, the hoof holes on inconsistent footing, the lack of training, etc. Our best obstacle horse, one that has a couple of regional plaques, was 28 inches tall and did all of his obstacle work without breeching. He was quite capable of backing a good distance and any rearing he did was the result of asking him to stand when he wanted to get on to the next obstacle.

Do I believe in breeching? Yes, I've already said as much. All of our horses are driven in breeching 100% of the time at home. But it is a "when in Rome" kind of thing. It absolutely does not hurt a horse to learn to go both ways. It is easy to paint the show ring and all of the participants with the same bad brush, but I really believe that the vast majority of folks who are out there enjoying their horses in all venues of horse sport, are dedicated to their horses and to the idea of having fun without doing harm. Their ways may not be my way, but who am I to say that they are wrong and I am right??

Dorothy


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 21, 2012)

You're right, Dorothy, and I stand corrected. It's still not the nature of a show ring (any show ring) to reward taking lots of time with a horse, but most of the people in that ring DO want the best for their horses and I too have seen lots of horses back carts quite happily without breeching. As you said, it depends on many factors.

Leia


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## Knottymare (Jul 30, 2012)

I came across this topic and hope it's ok to resurrect it because it poses a question I am having. I notice that my traces are frequently loose which means that I must have my saddle on too tight?

Leia, I used my diagra m the first time I tacked up. The problem I have is that I started this endeavor and then was laid up for over a yaer before I actually got to use what I learned.

So, what is causing my loose traces and what do I need to adjust. I have a simple breastcollar that is not currently connected to the waterhook by anything however I did get a small piece of leather to make the connection between the wither strap and the waterhook. I have the loops and wrap straps attached and my shafts are nearly level with my horse. I just feel like she's pulling mostly from the back which seems to tell me that perhaps my loops are too tight but when I loosen them it seems worse.

I'll try to get a video this weekend but in the mean time, I appreciate all the interesting info in this thread and look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Thanks!

Mary


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## happy appy (Jul 31, 2012)

Just a question from a newbie but do you have breechin attached and is it too tight?


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## Sandee (Jul 31, 2012)

Mary, when you hook your horse up, after you have the traces in place ask him to move forward to the "end" of the traces (until they are tight). Take a look at the shaft ends. Are they sticking out beyond his shoulders at this time? It could be that your traces need adjusting (shortening).

This can happen even after you have your harness "all adjusted" to fit him since we sometimes hook the horse in a slightly different spot on the shafts.


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## Knottymare (Jul 31, 2012)

OK. I'll check tonight. Initially, I was hitching to the 3rd notch on my traces but that made her too close to the cart when she moved so I am now using the second notch. And so far, no breeching but I just got the add on breeching from Ozark. Problem is I have no footmans thingymajig on my shafts and these breeching lines have buckles and eyes so I guess I'll wrap and buckle them. It's really fun to learn all this and work with the horse through all the nuances. I'm so lucky Dolly is smart and biddable. She adjusts to me so quickly and when we get "stuck", I get out of the cart and we work together on the ground... it's like I show her something 1 time and she gets it figured out. I just want to make sure that my equipment is helping and not hindering her...


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 31, 2012)

Knottymare said:


> I came across this topic and hope it's ok to resurrect it because it poses a question I am having. I notice that my traces are frequently loose which means that I must have my saddle on too tight?...
> 
> So, what is causing my loose traces and what do I need to adjust. I have a simple breastcollar that is not currently connected to the waterhook by anything however I did get a small piece of leather to make the connection between the wither strap and the waterhook. I have the loops and wrap straps attached and my shafts are nearly level with my horse. I just feel like she's pulling mostly from the back which seems to tell me that perhaps my loops are too tight but when I loosen them it seems worse.


I'm not sure without seeing what's going on in person but let's start at the beginning, shall we? So when you first put a horse to a new cart, you should put the shafts through the tugs and draw them forward until the shaft tips are even with the point of the shoulder. Then you attach the traces so that they are comfortably tight in that position and the cart can't roll back. If you have breeching you'd attach it next, adjusting it so there's a couple of fingers' width of clearance when the traces are snug. I usually play with the cart a little at this point, rolling it gently back and forth to see how far forward the shafts go before the holdback straps become tight and the breeching engages. You want to see that smooth give-and-take I talked about earlier on this thread and the shaft tips should not go past the point of the shoulder or swing upwards. Once you're happy with how things are adjusted it's time to add the wrap straps or overgirth. You wrap it once back to front in front of the tug, around and up behind the tug, throw in any extra wraps you need to make to take up slack then tuck it back through where it crosses in front of the tug and buckle it down. Having the wraps in front of and behind the tug keeps the wrap strap from slipping down the shaft by itself and tucking it through creates a sort of temporary knot if the leather should break in an emergency and may hold things together long enough for you to get stopped. Repeat that procedure on the other side making sure that both sides are even and adjust it until the overgirth is gently snug but not tight. The cart at this point should be held where it is but not tied down hard in any direction. (If you have open tugs you just buckle them in on both sides, adjusting it to about the same snug-but-not-tight level.)

If you don't have breeching then you'll just skip that step and go straight to the wrap straps. Your cart should be equipped with tug stops (little after-market pegs on the shafts) for this arrangement and you'll install those so they are just behind the tugs when the tugs are hanging straight down in line with the saddle and the traces are tight. You'll wrap just the same as if you have breeching but you'll have to snug them down a little more so that when the shafts start to swing forward as the horse stops they are immediately held back by the saddle. You want much less slack and give in this arrangement but IMO it is unnecessary to tighten them down so much the shafts are pulled inwards as you'll sometimes see. It's harder with thin metal EE shafts but with anything wooden it's pretty easy to get the wraps to "grip."

If you've followed this procedure when getting everything adjusted you shouldn't really have any problems with loose traces. Try it and let me know what you find! You can always haul your girls up here and drive at my place and we'll get it all sorted.

Leia


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## Knottymare (Jul 31, 2012)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> If you've followed this procedure when getting everything adjusted you shouldn't really have any problems with loose traces. Try it and let me know what you find! You can always haul your girls up here and drive at my place and we'll get it all sorted.
> 
> Leia


OK. I didn't get this message until after my drive this evening but I pretty much did everything the way you said there. I added a saddle pad and breastcollar pad from Ozark and also the breeching from them. The breeching doesn't seem to fit exactly perfect but everything really was much better. The thing I wasn't sure of was where to attach the breeching straps so I just wrapped them around the wooden shafts and they stuck pretty well. I will definitely want to get better breeching straps soon because it did stabilize the whole thing much better.

I got her a pair of those Easy boots with gators and they fit her pretty well. She's a little long in the toe so there was a bit of rub just below her coronet band on both feet so I'll need to do a bit of trimming but I was happy with them. I need to get some little tennies for Mimsy as I can see her wearing her toes down... her little feet tend to grow a lot of heel so I have to keep after that. I posted a very short video on Facebook... doesn't show much because I was driving and had my dog in my lap, too...

What a GREAT stress reliever for us all. and Leia, I would love to come up your way and go for a drive. We'll plan that soon!

Thanks again for all the help. Tomorrow is an off day but Thursday I'll print your post and take it otu and double check my procedure. If it hadn't been for your harnessing class I would have been lost.


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