# Foundation or Division A



## tini-z (Feb 22, 2007)

Hi,

In Europe we will have changes in the studbook for using imported stallions.

Now we have a problem about the % of "foreign" bloodlines.

It is correct that in Divion A shetland less then 12,5% outside blood and in the B divion is more than 12,5% allowed?

And what is Foundation? There are AMHR miniatures allowed, right? So if we woudl cvhoose this solution, it can be happen that we reduce sizes??

We have to find the best soution what stallions we can import in the future to get more refinement and type in the german lines.

Looking forward to hear your opinions....


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## kaykay (Feb 22, 2007)

tini

do you have an aspc rulebook?? if not try looking at the online book. It is very confusing and its best to read it a couple times.

FOUNDATION cannot exceed 42"

Foundation is the result of mating Div A to Div A for four generations. All Foundation will be required to acquire pedigree verification from ASPC

Division A shall be the result of breeding Div A to Div A with the exception as follows:

a foal of division B breeding that carries 12.5 percent or less non Division A will be elgible for registration in Div A etc etc

Keep in mind that you can hardship an aspc pony INTO AMHR. but you CANNOT hardship an AMHR mini into ASPC.

Aspc is a bloodline registry so that is why you cannot hardship an amhr into it

For refrence the pony in my avatar is foundation ASPC and also AMHR.


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## txminipinto (Feb 22, 2007)

kaykay said:


> FOUNDATION cannot exceed 42"
> 
> Foundation is the result of mating Div A to Div A for four generations. All Foundation will be required to acquire pedigree verification from ASPC
> 
> ...


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## kaykay (Feb 22, 2007)

yes i should have said for exhibition purposes

like i said the best way to understand is to get a rule book or look at the online rule book. the rule book goes over the requirements for breeding div a to div b but its too much for me to type LOL

Tini in my very humble opinion I would look for a foundation aspc/amhr horse. That will give you the bloodlines and the smaller size.

For instance black was born with aspc/amhr papers not hardshipped.


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## Lewella (Feb 22, 2007)

Also it needs to be remembered that the entire registry was "grandfathered" in March 2001 and that some ponies registered before that time were given A papers that should have had B papers. So there are A papered ponies that were born before March 2001 that have more than the allowed 12.5% outcross.

For Foundation certification a pony must have 4 generations of A papered ponies on its pedigree with no B's. That means the 3 generations on the papers plus one generation further off the papers. I'm not sure how the office is dealing with the issue of grandfathered ponies in respect to Foundation certification.


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## disneyhorse (Feb 23, 2007)

Hey Lewella... sort of regarding this...

My little ASPC/AMHR stallion has two horses on his pedigree that don't have an "A" OR a "B". What does that mean?

I just sent my money and his papers to AMHR for the Foundation Seal... I figure if he gets it, then it's okay, and if they send it all back, then it's not okay.

He's only 34" tall and I figure he'd be more competitive as a foundation than a classic. I'd love to show him as a pony!

Andrea


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## Karen S (Feb 23, 2007)

Hi Andrea,

If no letter, then it is considered an "A" pony. The no letters is before the induction of "Modern" blood or the "B" designation.

Karen


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## disneyhorse (Feb 23, 2007)

Oh very cool to know, Karen. Glad my pony IS foundation!

Thank you so much for responding!!!

Andrea


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## Lewella (Feb 23, 2007)

Quite a few of my ponies have pedigrees where most of the ponies predate the A and B designation.



: I like close up old bloodlines. :bgrin


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## Lisa Strass (Feb 24, 2007)

[quote name='txminipinto' date='Feb 22 2007, 02:22 PM' post='770252

Actually, a Foundation CAN exceed 42 inches.



: The height restriction is only for show purposes.

That said, I'm TRYING to work on a list of members who want to see either the height limit removed or an over division added. So, if that's something you want to see happen - CONTACT ME!!! [email protected]



:

For those who may not have gone to Convention: Adding an Over Show Category for the Foundations was brought up at 2006 Convention and voted down.


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## txminipinto (Feb 26, 2007)

Right Lisa! It was brought up and voted down due to lack of PRESENT support. I understand why many don't support it, but there are also MANY exhibitors who do. The problem with the Foundation seal is that it lacks a backbone in regards to who gets a seal. The division needs more structure or let those foundation sealed (and TYPE!!) over ponies show in their own Foundation division. In all honesty, if we're going to have ASPR classes at our AMHR/ASPC shows, then what is one more class?

One idea that I have had, and have not formally presented to anyone until today is to have a non rated over division class for those Foundation ponies. And to make it simple, just have an all sex Over division halter class to see the responce the class brings. The catch is those ponies who compete in this non rated class can not be prevented from entering their respective Classic halter class. I think it would be a great social experiement to truly see how much support an over Foundation division would have.


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## Lewella (Feb 26, 2007)

This was not the first convention where it was voted down. I've been to several conventions where it received the same reception as it did in Reno.

People seem to forget that though Foundation ponies have classes at shows it wasn't designed to be a show division but a preservation breeders division. The height was based in part on the maximum height for UK Shetlands. The Foundation breeders who started and fought for this division do not want the height increased for show purposes. An increase in height would put us back to square one in less time than it took for the Classic division to become something it was never intended to be (it was supposed to be what is now the Foundation division and the height restricton on Foundations was in part in response to what happened to the Classic division in less than 10 years).

Yes, the Foundation division needs more teeth. There are many ponies showing in the Foundation division that do not exhibit bone or substance. The ASPC tried to remedy this a several years back when Tom Swearingen did the Foundation drawings that appear in the rule book. The drawings were supposed to give people an idea of what a Foundation pony should look like. It's getting pretty hard to find a pony with the bone and substance of J.T.'s Sprinkles on Top in the Foundation ring the past couple of years!

Personally, I do not want to see the height raised. When I breed for Foundation ponies I breed for under 42 inches as does everyone else I know who is specifically breeding for Foundation. We know and understand that if we have a pony go over 42 inches that the pony is not eligible to show as a Foundation pony (though it can still show as a Classic). If the pony goes over 42 it's breeding stock. We know this and we accept this.

JMO

Lewella


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## mendocinobackofbeyond (Feb 27, 2007)

2-27-08 Hi: I think the problem with wanting to raise the height of the Foundation would go away if the Foundation breeders pushed for two things: 1. No animal over 42" can receive Foundation papers -- and strip them from animals that are over 42". 2. No animal receives PERMANENT Foundation papers until after its 3rd birthday and it has been measured by a steward for size and seen by a judge for type. The problem arises with the 'for show purposes'. Either it's a Foundation or it's not. Example: we're Americans -- just because someone is 5'2" and I'm 5'10" doesn't make either one of us more of an American than the other. JMO. Ta, Shirlee


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## tini-z (Mar 1, 2007)

Where in the rulebook can i find the rules about breeding Foundation and Division A/B.

I need the US rules about this breed for give it to the german breeder association.

And could any body mail me some pics of the typical Foundation type and A type. To demonstrate it the breeders here at te meeting.


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## kaykay (Mar 1, 2007)

hi tini!

go to www.shetlandminiature.com and you can view or print i believe the rule book. go to the aspc part for the pony rules

here is jet who is a foundation pony.











Here is black who is a foundation aspc A registered pony and also an over division miniature AMHR


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## disneyhorse (Jun 11, 2007)

Bumping this to the top so people can see arguments for and against... adding an "over" foundation rule change.

Andrea


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## susanne (Jun 12, 2007)

Our new yearling filly, Cherry-Hill Scarlet Ribbons, is foundation.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Jun 12, 2007)

I am very new to ponies (ok gave away a part of my secret)



: so don't know much but.. isnt most of the ponies and showing about making sure you are showing "in type" so the way I understand it (and trust me I don't understand alot about this whole pony thing) couldnt you still have a say 43 in very nice foundation in type and paper pony- and wouldnt then that pony not really be showing "in type" if you put it in a classic class?

And I think alot of people say oh my pony is small so I will show it in foundation even if it is not again "in type"

Whole thing is very confusing for a new person when learning the rules and what is considered truly a type like modern pleasure, modern ect since for some this seems to be subjective and for others it is very clear cut.


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## kaykay (Jun 12, 2007)

i was just talking to fran about this. it is very confusing especially if you are new to ponies. I said on another thread on here and ill say it again. Ponies do NOT show neccessarily by papers they show by TYPE. Now having said that you CAN show against type but you shouldnt, unless you have to because of classes not offered And I have heard that starting this year the judges are supposed to gate ponies showing off type.

But heres the dilema. Foundation is a type but also has a height restriction. Lets take my pony (pictured above) as an example. He is very much foundation in type and foundation papered. But should he go over the height limit for foundation showing I will have to show him in Classic. Or say I go to a show and there is no foundation class offered. Then I have the right to show him in Classic but again hes showing off type. This happened last weekend. There was no youth foundation gelding class offered at Ashland. So Kyle had to show him in Youth Classic mare/gelding. There was also no get of sire class in Foundation

Clear as mud right? lol

I also think the more you really watch pony classes the more you can pick the types. They start to become very obvious.

For miniature people i always relate it to how miniature types are thought of and it seems to help? NOw Getitia explains it much better then i, but heres a simplified version

Foundation/ equal to "old style" miniatures. more bone and substance. The foundation that the shetland pony was built on

Classic equal to so called more araby miniatures. lighter boned etc. Now these classics just like the "araby" minis are getting more and more extreme and more refined

Modern extreme movement more extreme body type

Modern pleasure a mix i think between classic and modern. these horses have too much movement to be classic but are not extreme enough (in body type or movement) to be modern. So a more toned down version of a modern like patches


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## hhpminis (Jun 12, 2007)

I am fairly new to the pony world as well. I have shetlands but show them as miniatures. Many of them have the foundation seal on their papers.

Saying that though, I dont have a single one that I would consider foundation type. They are too fine boned, yet they are too small to compete well with a 44 inch classic, they would get lost in the class, just as a 28 inch mini can not compete well with a 34 inch mini.

My thoughts to the foundation pony are compared to the shetlands that we all had in the pasture when we were kids. They were small in stature but had very substantial bone. This is what I believe the class was created for was for those that wanted to retain the look of the UK shetland rather than the finer taller American Shetland that the majority of us have.

I am very happy with my small shetlands but will continue to show them as miniatures rather than as foundation.


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