# Foundered laminitis



## angiestan (Jul 2, 2011)

Peanut my 11 yr old mini got into the feed thursday night. He had horrible runs, but seemed ok.

Yesterday morning he was a sad horse thought he had colic, called vet he said as long as he is eating and drinking and not down he was probably working it out.

This morning he could barely walk, breathing heavily, still would eat and drink, but he was miserable.

We took him to the vet. He had foundered and has Laminitis. I came home with tubes of stomach meds, antibotic, anti-inflamitories, bamanine, electorlytes, wow. This is like a two week supply. I have never had a horse founder before I had no idea it took that long to heal, AND he his feet may never be the same again. I guess we will deal with that later, now we are just trying to keep him comfortable. Ice watering his feet, gave him a nice fluffy pine shaving bed, and a fan. I feel so bad for him, and have moved the grain to somewhere this will never happen again. What a weekend this is going to be! I know it'll be awhile before he's all better, but I just hope the meds kick in soon and he looks not so pitiful. It's sad to see your babies hurt!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 2, 2011)

I cannot believe your vet did not feel it necessary to come out given the circumstances.




How much grain did Peanut get?

Poor guy.



Laminitis is NASTY stuff, truly pitiful, and minis and ponies are particularly prone to it. I hope Peanut heals up easily and well.

Leia


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## Matt73 (Jul 2, 2011)

Laminitis is inflammation of the laminae. Founder refers to the coffin bone rotating as a result of the inflammation (pulls away from the wall of the hoof).

"FounderSee also: #Informal use of the word Founder

Normally, the front of the third phalanx should be parallel to the hoof wall and its lower surface should be roughly parallel to the ground surface. A single severe laminitic episode or repeated less severe episodes can (depending upon the degree of separation of dermal and epidermal laminae) lead to either Rotation or Sinking of the pedal bone. Both of which result in anatomical changes in the position of the coffin bone known as founder."

So he does have rotation? I'm so sorry if this is the case. It's definitely one of the top three things that any horseperson dreads


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## Minimor (Jul 2, 2011)

Have you got a good farrier that knows how to deal with this? Proper trimming makes such a huge difference to a laminitic horse--even if this episode causes some rotation there is still hope that his feet can be brought back to normal, or very close to it. Good luck to you--I hope he will be feeling better very soon!


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## AnnaC (Jul 2, 2011)

Like Leia, I too cannot believe that your vet didn't come out to you - to walk (or travel) a horse with acute laminitis anywhere is doing untold damage!

Poor lad, it will be a while before he feels better, maybe a long while. He needs a really thick bed (not necessarily fluffy) - we aimed for a foot deep bed of shavings in the past when we had an issue with this horrid aliment. We trod the bed firmly down so there was no danger of the horse 'shifting' it as he lay down/got up, also a bed this thick will be useful to support the bottom of his feet, plus keep him comfortable for the long periods he will want to lay down. I also used to offer my horse a very small handful of high fibre nuts at feed times when I fed the others, just a small gesture to stop him getting stressed and feeling left out! But basically it is the rule to cut out all feed and just give hay to start with.

Good luck, I hope he improves soon. Please let us know how it goes.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 2, 2011)

AnnaC said:


> Like Leia, I too cannot believe that your vet didn't come out to you - to walk (or travel) a horse with acute laminitis anywhere is doing untold damage!


That too I suppose, but I meant that he did not come out and give preventative treatment against laminitis nor instruct the owner in doing so the day before. I haven't had a laminitic horse in years, thank God, but surely there are protocols for this sort of thing! It's a known risk when they get into rich food like that.

Leia


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## targetsmom (Jul 2, 2011)

I am so sorry to hear about this and wish you and Peanut well. It has been a long time since I had a horse with laminitis, but I don't think things have changed all that much in nearly 50 years. It is probably easier to do an x-ray to see if/how bad the coffin rotation is, but the increased risk of future episodes of founder will likely still be there. And farriers probably know a lot more about trimming feet now. I was able to ride my mare after her first few (of many) episodes. She had a heavy crest which is now known as a risk factor for founder but was not known then. You might want to ask your vet about the supplement "Remission" which is supposed to reduce the risk of founder in those prone to it. I feed it to my insulin resistant mare with a heavy crest. She is also on a low starch diet.

Good luck!


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## Marty (Jul 2, 2011)

Please take the time to google the subject and get acquainted with what you are really confronted with. Learn the terminology and as must as you can about this. I'm not sure you really know what lies ahead the way you have referred to "healing." This is not really an injury with a fix. This is more like a condition that will always exist within your horse now that the ball is rolling. The degree to what the condition will take on will rely on how badly the damage is, and your knowledge of the disease and how you handle it. Once a horse has a laminitis attack he will be prone to do it again so it is key you educate yourself and learn proper on-going care. Laminitis is the beginning that leads to founder. I hate to hear this has happened to any horse. The pain they endure is beyond belief so pain management and a change of diet is urgent. Good luck and best wishes to you during this sad time.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Jul 2, 2011)

I hate to comment about a situation I know little about, but the Vet should have treated this more aggressively and more quickly. Preventing complications from grain overload is far better than trying to treat them.

No point in taking xrays for 10 days. Takes time to see changes.

I think you may have a bigger problem than you realize. Good luck.

Dr Taylor


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures (Jul 2, 2011)

I highly recommend Soft-Ride boots, it's much easier than duct taping styrafoam on the bottom of the feet for comfort. Thinking of you, it's a tough road to soundess again, and as others mentioned read all you can on the subject!


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## Sandy B (Jul 3, 2011)

Kim~Crayonboxminiatures said:


> I highly recommend Soft-Ride boots, it's much easier than duct taping styrafoam on the bottom of the feet for comfort. Thinking of you, it's a tough road to soundess again, and as others mentioned read all you can on the subject!




I LOVE the Soft Ride Boots! I have never used them for laminitis but I used them on my full sized show mare when she was at shows and in the trailer.

I agree with Dr. Taylor- your vet should have taken a more serious approach to your poor guy. I would also encourage you to soak his feet in water filled with ice several times a day to keep the heat out of them. At least for the first 4 days or so until his pulse is down and the heat too.

Good luck to you.


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## JAX (Jul 3, 2011)

I hope its ok to put this here...





http://sports.groups.yahoo.com/group/hoofbootexchange/

Its a link to find boots for sale or for exchange sometimes. The mini sizes are harder to find but do show up sometimes. Of course they are usually used but sometimes only tried on and and then not used!


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## supaspot (Jul 3, 2011)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> I hate to comment about a situation I know little about, but the Vet should have treated this more aggressively and more quickly. Preventing complications from grain overload is far better than trying to treat them.
> 
> No point in taking xrays for 10 days. Takes time to see changes.
> 
> ...



what teatment could be given to prevent it from happening


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## Royal Crescent (Jul 3, 2011)

I have not treated any horse for laminitis, but I do know that you have to start doing things right away to prevent the damage from grain overload. Things like giving mineral oil and fluids to purge and limit absorption of toxins that cause the damage. Being vigilant to symptoms that may develop and treating them without delay. Early Vet care.

I hope he is doing better., poor baby





Barb


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## MindyLee (Jul 3, 2011)

I know what your going through too here myself. I adopted a older mini pony mix this January who has very bad laminitis and founder. And to top it off, I believe cushings as well.

His previous owners had him on 8 acres of lush dark green thick grass, 3rd cutting alfalfa, and 3 cups x2 a day 10% sweet feed for years. And was self trimming his feet inproperly. He loved him very much BUT did'nt realized he was loving him to death. (so to speak). This poor old horse was in great weight, a little fat, but could'nt walk at all. His heels where like high heel shoes with NO toe. Now that I have him, he is on a dry lot, 1st cutting timothy/grass mix and NO grain but only 1 cup a week for a snack only. It took a long time but his feet look somewhat normal after some hard core trimming, correcting, and pretty much reconstucting his hoofs. He can walk in ease, almost pain free and can even run again!

I cant stall him as he really hates it, and also no pain meds as I dont want his body to depend on them till I absolutly need to. He pulled through and has been doing well for several months now.

When I 1st got him, my intentions was to end his suffering soon as the ground was unfrozen. I cant aford to take care of a older horse with special needs as $$$ are tight, BUT since then, I have realized its not as hard as I though and have spared his life as of right now since he made such a great comeback and doing so well. He's such a love bug and thinks the world of me and makes this happy little noise soon as he sees me now. And now he will live happily and hopefully pain free till the end of his days in my back yard.

Good Luck! Hope this helps you out a little!


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## JennyB (Jul 3, 2011)

angiestan said:


> Peanut my 11 yr old mini got into the feed thursday night. He had horrible runs, but seemed ok.
> 
> Yesterday morning he was a sad horse thought he had colic, called vet he said as long as he is eating and drinking and not down he was probably working it out.
> 
> ...


So very sorry your little guy got into the grain. Not good stuff, but you hopefully caught it in time and even though the vet didn't come out, you did take him there and got the treatment he needed quickly. That is most important. You can get him xrayed later to see how much rotation there is, but doing all your doing and maybe what some others have said is the ticket! 

 

I had a large gelding that got foundered and the vet came right out, treated him and we did some things to make him more comfortable. He only had it in one front foot. About a year later he was doing well and we took him to get broke to ride. That all went well and I sold him to a gal who wanted to use him for endurance riding. That gelding went many miles in the trailer, never bothered him and was a top 100 mile endurance horse. The only thing she couldn't do was to turn him out on green grass...so have Faith, he might just be okay in the long run, although I don't think you will be able to turn him out on green grass. You can however turn him out on dry grass if you have that 





 

Good Luck and Blessings,

Jenny


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## weebiscuit (Jul 3, 2011)

supaspot said:


> what teatment could be given to prevent it from happening


I can't speak for Dr. Taylor, but I'm sure he's referring to the fact that if the feed had not been accessible to the horse then it wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. That is the way this could have been prevented. A vet can 't do anything to prevent laminitis. It has to be done by the owners being educated and aware.


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## Sandy B (Jul 3, 2011)

weebiscuit said:


> I can't speak for Dr. Taylor, but I'm sure he's referring to the fact that if the feed had not been accessible to the horse then it wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. That is the way this could have been prevented. A vet can 't do anything to prevent laminitis. It has to be done by the owners being educated and aware.




Weebiscuit, I am not sure how you got this out of Dr. Taylor's post??? He said something about the vet should have addressed the situation and treated right away. While I do agree that grains and feed should be behind a locked door that is hindsight.

I also believe that you can help prevent laminitis from turning in to full blown founder (when it is in regards to feed). Immediate use of Bute or Banamine comes to mind, to keep inflammation at bay and soaking feet in iced down water. Anything and everything to keep the inflammation minimal.

I am anxious to hear what Dr. Taylor has to say in response.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Jul 3, 2011)

Don't need to recite here the options, but suffice to say, preventive measures could have been taken. They may not have worked, but they should have been tried.

Treatment should've began as soon as the horse was found. Once the Vet was called and the horse had diarrhea then treatment really should have begun.

Dr Taylor


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## weebiscuit (Jul 3, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> Weebiscuit, I am not sure how you got this out of Dr. Taylor's post??? He said something about the vet should have addressed the situation and treated right away. While I do agree that grains and feed should be behind a locked door that is hindsight.
> 
> I also believe that you can help prevent laminitis from turning in to full blown founder (when it is in regards to feed). Immediate use of Bute or Banamine comes to mind, to keep inflammation at bay and soaking feet in iced down water. Anything and everything to keep the inflammation minimal.
> 
> I am anxious to hear what Dr. Taylor has to say in response.


He said, "Preventing complications from grain overload is far better than trying to treat them." That's what I was responding to.

I also agree that the vet could have taken more immediate measures to prevent founder from developing and in relieving the immediate pain from the laminitis.


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## kaykay (Jul 4, 2011)

Always always have a vet out immediately if a horse gets into grain. This happened to me my first year in minis and we lost one. 2 survived but only because the vet came and oiled them, medicated them etc. Never never wait.


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## ~Lisa~ (Jul 4, 2011)

I am sorry. Our aged pony she is about 25-28 or so foundered at Christmas. First time ever- did not get into anything vet said sometimes metobolic changes in older horses can cause it.

Anyway she was dead lame and so sore it was horrible to watch. I had to bute her for longer then I had intended and gave her gastrogaurd. Farrier could not do much at that point as there was no way she could lift one foot and support herself. We had to wait it out. Seemed like forever but about 18 days later she was sound again and has been ever since. We made some slight changes to her diet and she has not taken a bad step since. Now I realize it can come back and each time it can cause more long term damage but wanted you to know while serious - it does not always equal tragedy.


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## shorthorsemom (Jul 4, 2011)

I know of several options that my current vet did as preventative when my horses got out on spring grass a couple of years ago. I do believe that immediate treatment can help make a bad situation from getting much worse. If the vet won't come, call until you find one that will.

Some just spiral out of control even when you do have the vet on board from the onset.

It will be a long road ahead in the best of circumstances for your baby, especially if major rotation has occured from full blown founder. The pressure can rotate the bone right through the sole of the foot. In the best case senarios with little or known rotation, it is still a long road.

If you are treating for pain you will also be wanting to treat to prevent ulcers. Watch the dose on the bute if you are using that to control inflamation and pain. My former vet gave a pony of mine a very high dose of bute to control the pain. The pony did have less pain, but got bute toxicicity and had to be put to sleep. It was very traumatic for me and my children to be rounding the corner on the founder and to lose the pony to the bute, 1 gram doses is too much bute for a 10 hand pony. I questioned it at the time and I was assured that she had given that dose many times before with excellent results.




It was awhile back, but seems like yesterday and will be with me for a long time to come.

good luck and best wishes. Stay strong and do what is best for your little horse. I hope your horse gets better real fast. Get those feet padded. If you do ice water soaks, put in the cold water and add the ice after the feet are in the water. dry paddock.. I keep my horse feed at my house. Hind site is always 20-20 though, I put extra chains on my gates after my guys escaped and ate that spring grass. I never thought I had a system they could get out of until it happened.


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## Royal Crescent (Jul 4, 2011)

Hey, with all the discussions, I don't think that we have heard how he is doing. How is it going? I have been thinking of you and hope that he is doing better with the pain.

Barb


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## Sandy B (Jul 4, 2011)

weebiscuit said:


> He said, "Preventing complications from grain overload is far better than trying to treat them." That's what I was responding to.
> 
> I also agree that the vet could have taken more immediate measures to prevent founder from developing and in relieving the immediate pain from the laminitis.





I guess we are reading his quote two different ways.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 4, 2011)

Royal Crescent said:


> Hey, with all the discussions, I don't think that we have heard how he is doing. How is it going? I have been thinking of you and hope that he is doing better with the pain. Barb


Yes, I've been wondering too!

Please understand that no one here is critizing you for how you handled it or for what happened. You did your best by your baby, called the vet, and did everything you knew to do.



We just get going on these discussions sometimes in hopes that other people will learn what to do if it ever happens to them.

As others have also said, while laminitis and founder are very serious conditions horses CAN come back from it just fine and hopefully yours will be one of those with the diligent care I know you're providing. Our prayers are with you and your little guy.

Leia


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## rubyviewminis (Jul 4, 2011)

I have rescued horse with founder of almost full rotation and learned proper trimming techniques and certain feed and feed additives that have made great improvements in these horses almost being back to normal. www.hoofrehab.com, www.safergrass.org, www.theextrascoop.com (I have had great success using Karbo Combo for founder, severe crippling thrush, and other problems that came with the horses I brought home) Karbo Combo is an additive that research has proven can absorb and help prevent furthur laminitic attacks. While researching laminitis and founder, you will need to learn how to feed in the future. There is a lot of information out there for you.


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## JennyB (Jul 4, 2011)

she said, "We took him to the vet" so I think you need to stop with, "she should have had the vet out".. 



 ...she went to the vet, and came back with many other things to treat her horse. 

 

I want to also say that my best friend had let her young gelding get too fat and he foundered on all four. His rotaion was almost all the way around. During his recovery time, she of course put in on a dry lot and restricted his feed. Every month for 1+ year the horseshoer would come and put heart bar shoes on his feet. He grew new feet, everyone was amazed and he was sound as a dollar! Cost her a bundle of money to fix him! She sold him to a young girl for a show horse and he spent many, many years competing in the show ring and winning 



 ...

 

so happy endings came happen..have Faith 





 

Blessings,

Jenny


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## Field-of-Dreams (Jul 5, 2011)

JennyB said:


> she said, "We took him to the vet" so I think you need to stop with, "she should have had the vet out"..
> 
> 
> 
> ...she went to the vet, and came back with many other things to treat her horse.


 

No, she took him to the vet TWO DAYS later. 

 



> Yesterday morning he was a sad horse thought he had colic, called vet he said as long as he is eating and drinking and not down he was probably working it out. This morning he could barely walk, breathing heavily, still would eat and drink, but he was miserable.


 

Her vet dropped the ball. If he had gone in as soon as she found him, he could have been oiled and iced and may not have foundered. We found three of our mares in the feed room and immediately ran them down to our vet last summer. They were tubed and have their stomaches emptied, then oiled and spent the night there in ice boots. NONE foundered. 

 

I'm sorry, I hope he gets well for you.


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## AnnaC (Jul 5, 2011)

I agree with you, the original poster thought her horse had colic and called her vet - HE is the one with the knowledge and having been told what had happened, HE should have come straight out!

We are all experienced horse/mini owners and realise the danger of a horse getting into a feed bin, plus the need for immediate action, but we do not know this poster, she may be a more novice owner and I can understand her waiting until morning in the hope that the horse might be ok. Also she doesn't know us lot well so she will not perhaps realise (just as Leia has said) that we use/take advantage of topics like hers to discuss things/put forward ideas/learn so much from, that at times we seem a little over the top in our reactions/replies, without meaning to?

I really hope her little chap is progressing well and that we will soon have some news from her.

Anna


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## angiestan (Jul 6, 2011)

weebiscuit said:


> I can't speak for Dr. Taylor, but I'm sure he's referring to the fact that if the feed had not been accessible to the horse then it wouldn't have gotten into it in the first place. That is the way this could have been prevented. A vet can 't do anything to prevent laminitis. It has to be done by the owners being educated and aware.


Well we have locking latch on the gate. The horses figured out how to unlatch it for the first time ever. It's not like I just left the bag out for them, so don't act like I'm the worst person ever. It must be nice to be perfect like you.


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## lucky seven (Jul 6, 2011)

How is your little guy doing? I had a horse founder with laminitis on front feet with rotation. She had a bad stifle also. It took 4 vets before I got proper exrays. The first 2 vets didin't feel exrays were needed. Just felt her feet and said she had cushings, which they wanted treated. My horse suffered greatly because of 3 dropping the ball. My horse lost her battle when her stifle gave out completely. Hope you have better luck. If your gut instinct tells you to get a second, third or in my case a fourth opinion do it. And good luck,


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## rubyviewminis (Jul 6, 2011)

I think someone needs to take reading interpretation classes. I am not speaking for Dr. Taylor, but he clearly was referring to the veterinarian's role in having a case such as this presented to them on the phone. They did not give the horse owner enough serious responses to take PREVENTIVE medical courses to help stop further damage to this poor horse. He in no way was trying to tell the owner they didn't do enough to prevent this horse from consuming an overload of grain. How was the vet to know what really happened? And if one had the guts to accuse most horse owners of incompetent care, they would not have much of a business.

You have no right to bash this poster. You don't live on her property to see how she care takes her horses. Seems to me to be a responsible caring owner. I agree, it must be nice to be perfect.


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## kaykay (Jul 6, 2011)

Angie I am sorry for some of the responses you have received on this thread.

No one ever wants their horse to get into the grain and I and many others have had this happen. Mine was behind a locked door that was only 2x2 and how they managed to squeeze in there to get grain we still do not have a clue. Like yours mine figured out the lock plus squeezed thru a tiny opening.



> A vet can 't do anything to prevent laminitis.


Because mine got such fast vet care they did not get laminitis. It was touch and go and I have no doubt that without my vets quick response they would have ended up with laminitis or dead.

I have never talked to or seen the "perfect" horse owner yet.


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## [email protected] (Jul 6, 2011)

I've been dealing with a chronic founder case for the past year. We actually thought Woody wasn't going to pull out of it, and were making plans for his 'trip'. He's one of our original Minis (now 12), so it's even worst emotionally thinking he wasn't going to be with us much longer.

The last visit the farrier said he's finally getting some improvement. The vets have checked - not Cushings, etc., he's just a management issue. They recommended soaking his hay and limiting any grazing to the evening when there are less sugars in the grass.

Here's a link to his hoof trimming we did recently - you can see the founder problems (white line) and were it's finally improving.

Best of luck with you guy, it's awful when they're sick.


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## a mini dream come true (Jul 6, 2011)

Angiestan,

Please don't take any of the responses to your post personally



. They are not intended to be critical of you or the wonderful care you give your horses.

I am new to the wonderful world of minis and have learned tons of great information from members of this forum. I am still learning even from this thread. The lord has been really watching over me and my minis, because I do not keep my

grain very far from them and it's not behind a locked door. I'll be rearranging things now.

How is your little guy? Is he doing better? {{{{{{HUGS}}}}}} Will be keeping you and your little guy in my prayers. Please keep us posted on his progress.


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## Eagle (Jul 6, 2011)

Great photos Michelle, thanks for sharing. I am glad he is making progress.


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## Hosscrazy (Jul 6, 2011)

Great photos, Michelle, on separation. Thanks for sharing.

I struggled for 2 years with my Cushings mare who foundered. It was a long road to recovery and I wish you the best with your little one. Horseshoes.com has some wonderful farriers that may be able to help you if you so desire.

Best,

Liz


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## Marty (Jul 6, 2011)

Some of what I have read here is not very welcoming to a new poster. The OP came here to explain what happened and could use a little moral support and wellness wishes for her little guy.

This could and has happened to a lot of people.From what she told her vet sounded like a colic that was already on the mend with him eating and pooping. She called it wrong as a newbie who never heard of founder would but she did take him onto the vet when she saw him in dire straights right away; got meds and then came here to tell her story and learned from it too. She also told she was moving the food to a safer place. Yes damage is done and founder is bad but she is trying her best to help her horse. I have read a whole lot of complete irresponsibility on this forum over the years and this is not one of them.

Come on people! Be nice! That's all I'm saying.


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## Royal Crescent (Jul 6, 2011)

I second that Marty!!


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## Royal Crescent (Jul 6, 2011)

Angie, I really would like to hear how he is doing. And how you are doing after a busy weekend of keeping your baby comfortable. Hugs!!!

Barb


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## angiestan (Jul 7, 2011)

Hello-

Peanut is doing better, he is a lot less painful. Cold water soaks on those feet do wonders. He started feeling so well last evening that he started to get bored in his stall. knocking water over banging it against the stall, it sounds like he is playing the drums in there.....at midnight. I went out and gave him an extra little shot of banamine to calm him down, just in case he was more painful than he had been( don't worry, I had already cut back this week on the pain med so upping one little dose isn't going to hurt him!). He is taking all his meds really well. I haven't taken him out of the stall, it's killing me I want to give him a short walk so bad, but don't think it's time to yet. Worse than that, I feel awful at feed time when everyone else gets some and he only gets hay, poor guy. We are more or less in a wait and see phase till he is done with his meds and can get an x-ray later this month. I believe he starting to thinking he is a pampered princess as I was sitting in the stall with him, he looked at the water bucket and shook is head up and down, and I ran over got the bucket and put it right under him so that he could drink. Who's training who here?

As for the vet issue, yes I was pretty frustrated with his vet that I called fri night. I have had my horses 5 years now, and even though none of them have ever had colic I knew that wasn't what was wrong with Peanut. The vet basically blew me off for the 4th of July weekend. When he told me to walk him, I knew not to. I hosed him down, stalled him. When the idiotic neighbors tried to walk him the next morning while I was trying to get his trailer ready, I got into it with them. There's was no doubt in my mind it was his feet or joints, not a belly ache gone bad. When the second vet on the phone said he couldn't come out, me and my daughter rode in the back in the trailer to take him to the vet so he had some support. (by the way, ride in the back of a trailer some day, wowo, you will drive differently after you see how it feels back there!) I had to give up boating all weekend *sigh* to take care of Peanut which was pretty much a round the clock affair this weekend. His meds all had to be given at different times and to make sure he was hydrated was quite the work out this weekend!

I'm just trying to say I do the best I can-the vet did the best he could and still get on that plane for the bahamas,-and you all do the best you can giving advice and I appreciate it.

As for the judgemental people I don't know what you think you gain from being so mouthy on here, it's not the best way to make friends or live your life. You can secretly think whatever you want about me, but really?? to make feel like the worst horse owner in the world just isn't why this forum was created.

One last thing, we have a 9 week old filly in the barn now and I'm pretty sure she is the unlatcher. That's why it had never happened before, she wasn't around. I put a new super duper latch on it yesterday and last evening she was working on it like a rubics cube. I guess I'll give up and get a lock with key, it's just such a pain!

Have a great week everyone, even the grumpies out there. Keep that grain bin put up and give your mini's a hug from Indiana.


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## Eagle (Jul 7, 2011)

Good for you! I am sending hugs and prayers for Peanut, he sounds like a real cutie. I bought my yearling a ball to play with as he gets bored and literaly throws his water bucket around, maybe Peanut needs a toy?


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## a mini dream come true (Jul 7, 2011)

So glad to here that Peanut is doing better




. Sometimes it does feel like our chips are training us. Loved your story.



Thank you for sharing it with us. Hugs and prayers going your way for Peanut and you.


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## Royal Crescent (Jul 7, 2011)

I am so glad he is doing better! I hope that the xrays turn out well for him. Thanks for the update. Hugs!!

Barb


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## AnnaC (Jul 7, 2011)

Great news!








So glad that Peanut is improving - love your story about him demanding his water bucket! LOL!! I have a few like that, even if they are not feeling ill!

Thanks for the update, please continue to let us know how he get's on.





Anna


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## wcr (Jul 7, 2011)

I'm glad to hear your guy is doing better. One thing you have going for you is that it is an acute rather than chronic problem. Most horses develop problems over time by repeatedly being exposed to what makes them founder in the first place. One thing that I might suggest is putting up a small pen where he can see or be near the other horses so he isn't couped up all the time and dig it out and make a mud hole for him to stand in. I am talking about a pen small enough to just make a mud hole, not so he can run around. Nice cool mud is as effective as icing his feet several times and less labor intensive.

Michelle is a wealth of information and we talk for hours throwing things back and forth. I am familiar with Woody and was there when the vet was out and he is a sad case. He has been very bad but with proper management and trimming, has made a huge difference.

As the saying goes, S**T Happens, you fill in the blanks. The best management in the world can't prevent things from happening when you have a determined horse. The more you try to make the safest place in the world for them, they find something else to get into. I can pretty much guarantee that every single person on this forum has had some event happen that was unforeseen. We would all do well to remember that.


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## Helicopter (Jul 7, 2011)

So glad he is feeling better.





No matter what the x-rays show don't despair. If this is his first founder episode he should fully recover. ''Rotated'' pedal bones can be rehabilitated especially if you have a barefoot farrier



who actually knows what he/she is doing.

Our local barefoot farrier (a young, small woman) is an expert on founder....... prevention, rehabilitation etc. Knows way more than the vets around here. All they would do is prescribe bute, take x-rays and charge a fortune for their trouble.

You'll get him through this.


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## shorthorsemom (Jul 7, 2011)

I have heard that 4-6 inches of pea gravel in a paddock can support the sole and flex when they walk and provide some comfort to the foundered horse. I haven't tried it for founder but you can google it to see if it would help. Only one of my minis gets limited grass, the other two get none and they get remission daily.. They are of the body type that would be a great founder risk if allowed on grass. I use the pea gravel paddocks for turn out and love it and they stay nice and clean too. Turn out on grass is always in muzzles.

I highly recommend the padded boots Kim of crayonbox miniatures mentioned. She had good luck with those boots and they can help prevent post founder pain..

Glad Peanut is doing better. Remember the fly spray, stomping hurts, and also you might consider using probiotics while you are using pain meds. good luck and I hope you continue to have improvement with your horse.


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## Sandy B (Jul 7, 2011)

Yeah for Peanut and you!! Good job momma taking care of your boy! Yup, that cold water therapy gives them such immediate relief. Feels so good to those hot little feet. I will continue to pray for the little guy in hope of a complete recovery!


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## angiestan (Jul 8, 2011)

At 1pm yesterday Peanut was still doing alright. He was still agitated and messing with his water bucket, but still looked like he was on the up and up. 5pm rolls around I go to give him his medicine and he had died. So so heartbreaking.


He had taken his last dose of gut medicine the night before.I wonder if it was keeping his belly comfortable, then the bucket banging started at midnight, maybe it wasn't boredom but in pain?


Could he have died of colic a week after eating all that grain? He's been having regular bowel movements, only eating hay.


Can they just die from the infection even after it has started to be controlled with antibiotics?
Just makes no since to me that he was just dead that quick with no signs like when he first got sick last week.

I'd like to get a little input from everyone that is knows a little about this stuff because I called my vet this morning, but of course he is 'out' and can't be disturbed today. Really? The other horse vet in town is out of the country, so I guess if you have a horse emergency in the tristate area you are in big troubles.

So it's a sad morning, I didn't even go out and see my baby Nina because Peanut is still in his stall. The guys had a pretty good hole started last night, then it rained so hard we got 2.08 inches in a 3 hour stretch. I guess they'll get him in the ground today. Only other option was to put him in the back pasture and wait for some place to come pick him up on August 8th. NOT!! This town just isn't a very equine friendly place I'm learning.

I never imagined it would hurt this bad loosing horses. Here's a pic of Peanut, he was a silver dapple. Such a handsome guy. (sigh)


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## rubyviewminis (Jul 8, 2011)

I am soooo sorry for you and Peanut. I don't have any answers for you like others surely can with experience about this, I would only have assumptions. You were there for the little guy and cared for him your very best, that matters the most. Giving you big hugs. I really am sorry you had to go through this.


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## a mini dream come true (Jul 8, 2011)

:CryBabyI am so very sorry for your loss



. He was a beautiful little guy. At least he is no longer in pain. {{{{{{{Hugs }}}}}} to you. wish I could do more. Just know that you did all you could.


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## chandab (Jul 8, 2011)

So sorry for your loss.


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## RhineStone (Jul 8, 2011)

To the OP: sorry you had to go through this. Laminitis is a horror movie.

To all equine enthusiasts after reading some of these posts slamming the vet: We have a number of veterinarian friends. A lot just don't want to deal with horses. Actually, a lot of them don't want to deal with _horse people_. There are a number of things you can do to prevent this: (I don't know the OP or the circumstances, but I do know what our vet friends have told us about their practices and the people they deal with.)

#1 - PAY THE BILL! (enough said.)

#2 - Have your horses in (caught) with a halter on (not a rope training halter) and somewhat clean before the vet gets there. One friend told us that he showed up at a farm and was expected to go catch a muddy horse to treat it. Needless to say, he told them to call him when they caught it. Red flag on that owner for next time!

#3 - Don't expect the vet to work with a horse that you haven't worked with. You can "hog-tie" cattle and other animals to restrain them. You can't do that well with horses. Vets don't want to walk into a barn and leave on a stretcher. Get all your horses to lead, tie, stand, etc.

#4 - Have a clean, dry place (preferrably covered) for the vet to work with your horse. The muddy paddock is not the most hospitable work environment.

#5 - Don't try to be "right" and argue with the vet about it. Eventually they decide they are "too busy" to deal with you. I know people who consistently have a problem getting a vet to come out because the vets are tired of trying to convince that person of the real problem.

#6 - Have your medical records in order for the patient. Don't waste the vet's time looking for paperwork that you could had out before he got there. Know the last time the horse was vaccinated, dewormed, trimmed, feed changed, etc.

#7 - Offer the vet a cold drink on a hot day or a warm one on a cold day. Hospitality goes a LONG way to get good service, even if they don't take it!

If all of us would follow these few simple suggestions, we would have less vets unwilling to put the time and energy into horse people.



"Burn me once with_ horse people_, shame on you. Burn me twice, shame on me!" You sure don't want to be one of those "red flag" people who the vets talk about over a beer! "I had this client once who....."


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## Marty (Jul 8, 2011)

I am so shocked to wake up and read this today. I AM SO SORRY!

I have no idea what could have caused this but a couple things come to mind: You mentioned he was "playing" with his water bucket on more than one occasion. I've had that happen and take that as a sign of a lot of pain when they basically splash around in the water bucket with their face but don't actually drink. I also think it is very possible that he coliced and twisted an intestine. That could have been the bucket banging you heard. Without having a necropsy's done, you'll never really know what happened and a lot of necropsy come back as "inconclusive". It will really do no good to try and figure this all out. Anything could have gone wrong.

Again my condolences on you loss.


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## angiestan (Jul 8, 2011)

It's unfortunate that people make the vets job harder, but *tough luck* it's their job. They went through enough at vet school to know that it's a dirty hard difficult dangerous job. Now that they are established they can pick and choose who they want and that's just not right. I am a dog groomer and I have those same stories. I on the other hand have a different theory. Even though I don't want to do the dog again if it's one of those horror dog owners, I go ahead and 'do my job.' I might be the only one that whole year who gives a rat's butt about that dog and I'm going to clean it up even and give a kind gentle word. The vet is not there for the owner, he didn't go to school to learn what people to avoid. He went to take care of animals whether it be a good animal bad animal, and it's not the darn animal's fault his owner is less than worthy of the beautiful creature. If he wants to vent over a beer that's fine, if he want's to blast them on facebook fine, but it's still his duty to take care of alllllll the animals brought to him. Shame on a vet for picking and choosing who might be worthy of his care. I know you weren't insinuating that I'm a bad horse owner, but it struck a nerve anyway. I don't think the vet is putting me off today, I think he's at a barn gelding several horses. He'll call later, it's just frustrating to wait when I'd like his opinion.


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## Royal Crescent (Jul 8, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss of Peanut. I wish I had an answer for you. You took the very best of care of him. Hugs.

Barb

Side note to RhineStone. Next time you want to share some advise like that, start a thread. That was horribly insensitive to post that here especially on the day she lost her beloved Peanut.


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## pam (Jul 8, 2011)

So heartbreaking - so sorry for your loss.


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## shorthorsemom (Jul 8, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss!!! so sad.



I was hoping for a happy ending. He was a beautiful little horse and I know how much you loved him.

When my boy foundered he was improving day by day . On the last day he was hanging around and messing with the water bucket in the morning, 6 hours later he had a foul smell coming out of his mouth and ulcers on his tongue. The vet came out and said he had bute toxicity and that it could move that quickly. We put him down, but she said that he would have died on his own in an hour, so had I not found him when I did and had that diagnosis from the vet, I too would have wondered what killed my pony. I am not saying your mini had bute toxicity, but mentioning so you can have peace and know that even when you are doing the best by your horse, things can just happen in the blink of an eye and I don't want you to beat yourself up like I did with my pony trying to figure out if you could have done anything different to offset the tragic outcome...

I am sure you didn't miss anything and it sounds like he just spiraled out of control...things can come on that fast and surprize the heck out of you. Sometimes these little guys can be so tough and sometimes they can be as fragile as a butterfly given the right circumstances. Peace to you, you really did your best and I am so sorry you lost your boy. hugs from Adair


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## RhineStone (Jul 8, 2011)

Just did start a new thread, even before I read your responses. I think it is horribly insensitive for all these posters to blame the vet who isn't even on here to defend himself. Being a vet is a _business_. If he can make his living dealing with people and animals he wants to, good for him. Why should he make it more difficult for himself? Vets are not _required_ to treat your animal unless they work under someone else who takes the case. Individual vets can pick and choose, especially in an established practice. For example, if he works with a client he thinks is going to sue him later, you can bet he is going to avoid that person.

Again, *directed at those who blamed the vet* without knowing the circumstances.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 8, 2011)

angiestan said:


> At 1pm yesterday Peanut was still doing alright. He was still agitated and messing with his water bucket, but still looked like he was on the up and up. 5pm rolls around I go to give him his medicine and he had died. So so heartbreaking.


Oh no!!




:CryBaby



Angie, I'm so sorry.



I can't imagine how you must be feeling right now. This was NOT YOUR FAULT in any way, you did your absolute best for this guy and sometimes this crap just happens. My heart breaks for you.



RhineStone said:


> To all equine enthusiasts after reading some of these posts slamming the vet: We have a number of veterinarian friends. A lot just don't want to deal with horses. Actually, a lot of them don't want to deal with _horse people_.


Then they shouldn't become HORSE VETS. It sounds like your vets are livestock vets but that is not the case in other parts of the country. Around here we have primarily horse vets and small animal vets and the horse vets may or may not treat other species of livestock. They got into it because they love these beautiful animals and yes, IMO it is practically criminal for one to do a phone consult and not even mention the risk of founder or tell the owner what to watch for.



angiestan said:


> It's unfortunate that people make the vets job harder, but *tough luck* it's their job. *They went through enough at vet school to know that it's a dirty hard difficult dangerous job.* Now that they are established they can pick and choose who they want and that's just not right. I am a dog groomer and I have those same stories. I on the other hand have a different theory. Even though I don't want to do the dog again if it's one of those horror dog owners, I go ahead and 'do my job.' I might be the only one that whole year who gives a rat's butt about that dog and I'm going to clean it up even and give a kind gentle word.


Darn straight and good for you, Angie! The vets have every right to avoid a former bad customer, but a first-time caller with an emergency situation? That's harsh.

Again, I'm so sorry for your loss.

Leia


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## targetsmom (Jul 8, 2011)

I just read about the very tragic end to poor Peanut and my heart goes out to you. I do know how you feel because I lost a much loved mini earlier this year and got no answers. Sometimes you do everything you can and bad things happen. Hugs to you!!!


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## AnnaC (Jul 8, 2011)

Oh I'm so so sorry to read your news. What a gorgeous little fella - thank you for the picture.

As others have said, please try not to beat yourself up over his sad passing, you did everything you could for him, no-one could have done more. Who knows what caused his death? It is a question that will probably remain unanswered, he may well have had something else going on underneath the symptoms he was showing.

Hopefully you will remember the happy memories of the good times you shared and find peace in the days to come.

Sending you ((((HUGS)))) and again I'm so very sorry for your loss.

Anna


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## Helicopter (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm so sorry to read that you lost your little Peanut. He was a very handsome little man.



You must be broken. So sad.


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## dgrminis (Jul 8, 2011)

So sorry that you lost Peanut!


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## sdust (Jul 8, 2011)

I am so VERY sorry for your loss of your Peanut. Let me just tell you this is every horse lover's worse nightmare. Take care. ((((HUGS)))) Debbie


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## JennyB (Jul 8, 2011)

Angie I am so very sorry for your loss of Peanut! 



 It sounded like you were doing everything you could to make him feel better. As for his death an autopsy will tell that. I can only guess that it was one of two things...Colic or a heart attack! Did his body look like he had been rolling and have dried sweat? 

 

We had a lovely mare who had just given birth a few weeks before. She got colic and had to have 2 surgeries. The day the vet called to come and get her the next day, she suddenly without any warning died of a heart attack leaving her foal an orphan. It can happen. 

 

As for this talk about vets not coming because the horse is not clean enough or the owners are hard to deal with..this is rubish!! 



 A vet goes to school to learn to treat horses and other animals, not people! Yes learning to have tact in many situations is important, but never, ever should a vet not go to a owners home because they have personal issues! If they do, then they need to re-access why they are a vet in the first place! End of story!

 

Angie I hope that it is possible for your vet to come out and help decide what Peanut died from or have an autopsy preformed. That will help rest your feelings of what he died from, but please know that we know you did everything you could for Peanut and that you loved him very much...RIP Peanut!

 

HUGS and Blessings 





Jenny


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## Field-of-Dreams (Jul 8, 2011)

I'm so, SO sorry!

Godspeed, Peanut.


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## shorthorsemom (Jul 10, 2011)

Hey Angie, just checking to see how you are doing. Thinking of you this morning and your recent loss of your little horse and hoping you are ok. Thank you so much for opening up your story to the forum. You have people thinking about gates, closure latches, the sadness of founder, fragile nature of life and making us all think about being more sensitive to others and appreciating life every day. Thanks for that. Take care and best wishes. Adair


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## kaykay (Jul 10, 2011)

So sorry for your loss.

Kay


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## Eagle (Jul 10, 2011)

Angie I am so sorry for your loss of your beautiful Peanut. I am afraid I can't help you as to why he passed but I can say that you did everything possible to help him. I too would like to thank you for sharing this with us and maybe you have prevented this happening again. I spent over an hour yesterday cleaning out my yard and moving all my food and hay into an empty stall well out of reach of any possible escapees. None of my horses can open gates or stall doors but it made me think that maybe a yearling could learn.

Only time will help you heal and remember Peanut for the super little guy that he was.

RIP Peanut and run free

Hugs Renee


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## [email protected] (Jul 10, 2011)

So sorry your guy died. It happens unfortunately and not always for an apparent reason.

We've found perfectly healthy (or at least looked/acted that way) dead for no reason. We call those the GoK (God only knows) deaths. It's the one down side to working with animals, they cannot always communicate to our understanding what's wrong or how serious it is. I know here as horses being a 'prey' type animal they will mask health issues, so anyone acts off even slightly we pull them in for monitoring.

Again sorry for your loss.


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## lucky seven (Jul 10, 2011)

Oh I am so sorry that you lost your little peanut.


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## angiestan (Jul 12, 2011)

Thanks for all your replies. I'm a little better this week. Still is weird walking out there not seeing his sweet little face. This is probably weird, but he had the cutest lil butt....lol. The alpaca is still humming I think he's taking it harder than me.



The other horses don't act any different I thought things might get weird since he was the boss of the pasture. I've had two stallions out there and things were getting pretty tense, I'm glad I had held off on getting the other gelded. So that problem was saddly solved, although Dozer is such a dodo head I'm not sure I want a baby from him.

Anyway, I really appreciate everyone's concern. On a side note, the vet never called me back, I called a couple of times, so that was sorta irritating.

I guess I learned a valuable lesson about those gates and latches. Little stinker baby Nina is still working on this new lock but it's key locked so she can try all she wants, but it's not gonna happen. I'm pretty sure if I put one of those baby toys out there where you put the square block in the square hole and the circle block in the circle hole that she would figure it out. She's already fetching a large dog rope toy, I've never encountered a horse like her.

Keep those grain bags hidden and big hugs from Indiana,

Ang


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## rubyviewminis (Jul 12, 2011)

Angie we all just do our best. So glad to hear from you. I feel its safer now to discuss some of the critical points of this story we can all learn from. My husband to this day 11 years later does not believe me when I tell him my big ole' Quarter Horse figured out our key lock on the gate. We caught him out I don't know how many times, and I would get kind of yelled at. I would argue with my DH and tell him,"I DID lock his gate." And I DID, but he started me to thinking I was losing my mind. It was the lock you push down the curved bar and it had numbers to turn. I made sure I had it latched down tight, turned the numbers, jerked it down a few times to make sure, then I drove my truck behind a huge shrub and drank my coffee and watched. As soon as he finished his breakfast he went over to the gate and started picking up the heavy chain that was around the gate and post, locked together, mainly to keep other people out of our horse pens. He pulled it around until the lock was on his side and with nimble little lips started fooling with it. Then he pulled the chain way up and let it drop and hit repeatedly. About the 14th time that lock sprang open and he fiddled with it until the chain popped off, pushed the gate open and went on his merry way to visit the other horses! I didn't have a camera or camcorder at the time, so I am still trying to convince DH. Shortly after that this same horse bucked me off and I was hurt pretty bad, DH sold him while I was still in the hospital, so no pictures of the incident of the lock. We do our best.

By the way, I have personal friends that are veterinarians. They feel they have a duty to their clients and their horses. I fully understand outlandish horrible people and trying to avoid them. But they do have a duty to anyone calling for help to give their best.


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