# Here's An Item by Item Comparison the Candidates



## Jill (Sep 2, 2008)

Here is some information for everyone who's interested.






















*You can verify the above at the following web sites:*

http://money.cnn.com/news/specials/election/2008/index.html

http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/issues/issues.taxes.html

http://elections.foxnews.com/?s=proposed+taxes

http://bulletin.aarp.org/yourworld/politic...s_on_taxes.html

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checke...s/barack_obama/

http://blog.washingtonpost.com/fact-checke...es/john_mccain/


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

"Will appoint judges who interpret the law, not make it"? How is that a definable category? And last I checked, Obama was for a gradual withdrawal of troops, not an immediate one.

As for the increase in taxes, how else are we supposed to support our country and dig ourselves out of Bush's debt?


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## Jill (Sep 2, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> As for the increase in taxes, how else are we supposed to support our country ...


Yes, not to mention fund all the social programs / spending that democrats are notorious for expanding.

The above is how Obama stood at one point. As much as he flip flops, I honestly cannot tell you what he's saying today.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

Social programs? Holy cheese! You mean we would be SUPPORTING OUR CITIZEN IN NEED?

Sign me up!


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## Jill (Sep 2, 2008)

Well, I'm more in favor of personal responsibility (vs. social program handouts) which is one huge reason I'm a life long Republican. Like I said before, the harder I work and the more I achieve, the more Republican I feel.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

So the further away you bring yourself from strife and poverty, the less inclined you feel to help others who are struggling? I do think that there are people who abuse our social programs, yes, but there are a lot of people who need them, just for a little while, to help them get back on even ground. I would not deny help to those who need it, and I can't understand how we as a country lag so far behind in making sure we have a healthy and educated citizenship.


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## Miniv (Sep 2, 2008)

Social programs also include grants for things like "Studying the breeding of grasshoppers"...........etc........ This type of thing.

Yes, there are necessary Social Programs, but if one does a little digging, it's AMAZING (Scary!) where our tax dollars are going!

I have yet to hear of a politician -- Democrat OR Republican -- who has even offered to CLEAN UP UNNECESSARY SPENDING! There is a lot of money out there that can be saved, without new taxes!!!!

Jill, thank you for posting that.........Very eye-opening.


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 2, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> "Will appoint judges who interpret the law, not make it"? How is that a definable category? And last I checked, Obama was for a gradual withdrawal of troops, not an immediate one.
> As for the increase in taxes, how else are we supposed to support our country and dig ourselves out of Bush's debt?



Obama has changed his mind over the troops. First he said (at Ashford University in Sept 2007) that he called for a removal of the troops by the end of 2008. Sounded good I am sure to say a date to where he knew someone else would be president. AND THEN on his website he says this



> Under the Obama plan, a residual force will remain in Iraq and in the region to conduct targeted counter-terrorism missions against al Qaeda in Iraq and to protect American diplomatic and civilian personnel. He will not build permanent bases in Iraq, but will continue efforts to train and support the Iraqi security forces as long as Iraqi leaders move toward political reconciliation and away from sectarianism.


"A residual force" huh sounds like they are staying to me! So go figure! Can you tell by that how long or how fast he intends to deploy our troops? NO! It is my opinion that he made a statement in haste and his party reeled him in. He says a lot but it is never consistent unless someone wrote a speech for him to learn and give.

On the "judges who interpret the law not make it" We have laws in place and I am sure no one wants judges going in to change them. The judges chosen are to UPHOLD the laws we have.

As for the taxes, President , ooops I mean candidate, John McCain is going to work on curbing spending. SOmething that Palin is very knowledgable about also. Now wouldn't you rather have us curb spending then to have a business shut down and people lose their jobs???


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

I would rather see every man, woman and child in the U.S. have food to eat and access to affordable healthcare. If that means I have to pay more in taxes, then I'm just fine with that. As it stands now we have businesses closing, people losing their jobs, banks failing, record home foreclosures...and we're seeing no benefit from any of it.

Obama's taxing by this chart is similar to President Clinton's. Mind you I was younger, but I recall that we had a pretty good, strong economy under Clinton.


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## Laura (Sep 2, 2008)

Sigh...here we go again...

Snopes.com

What I *did* see on those links, supports what I agree with on Barack Obama's positions.


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## SweetOpal (Sep 2, 2008)

Great points Jill!!! Awesome...I am saving these!


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## Laura (Sep 2, 2008)

Miniv said:


> Social programs also include grants for things like "Studying the breeding of grasshoppers"...........etc........ This type of thing.
> Yes, there are necessary Social Programs, but if one does a little digging, it's AMAZING (Scary!) where our tax dollars are going!
> 
> I have yet to hear of a politician -- Democrat OR Republican -- who has even offered to CLEAN UP UNNECESSARY SPENDING! There is a lot of money out there that can be saved, without new taxes!!!!
> ...


Actually, Obama said during his acceptance speech that he planned to do just that, go through the federal budget line by line to eliminate unneccesary spending


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks for the link Laura! I knew this chart didn't look right.


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## Laura (Sep 2, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> Thanks for the link Laura! I knew this chart didn't look right.


I got it by e-mail just a few minutes ago too


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## Jill (Sep 2, 2008)

I think it's more right than not, but it is a drop in the bucket as to why I'll be voting the way you know I will


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## SweetOpal (Sep 2, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> I would rather see every man, woman and child in the U.S. have food to eat and access to affordable healthcare. If that means I have to pay more in taxes, then I'm just fine with that.



While you may be fine with that, I am NOT...I pay 46% of my income now to taxes, I think that is more than enough...My theory is work hard to make a living, if it is not hard enough, work harder!


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## Bassett (Sep 2, 2008)

Great Jill.

Lots of good reading on all these sites. And for the comparisons, well maybe some people aren't as bad off as they like us to think they are. Maybe they can afford to have their taxes doubled. I know I can not afford to pay more taxes. To me the comparisons speaks volumes.

And like has been said "I'll give up my gun when they pry it from my cold dead hands".

Social Security benefits to illegals. Why? I agree if someone needs help, they need help but let them go get it in their own country or go through the proper channels here to become a citizen. The place I retired from (Heat and Glo, production of gas fireplaces) hired more Mexicans and Vietnamese then Americans. One day the law came in and took out the whole of line 5 (30+) (All Mexicans) because none of them had green cards to even be working. We laughed. They were all liars and cheaters.

Health care, I don't even like Kaiser (sp?) sister-in-law in California has it and I don't hear too much good about it. I want to go to MY doctor, not someone they tell me I have to go to.

I live in a very low income area and I know a lot of people who appear to abuse the system. I think we all have to start on our own doorsteps to help ourselves. If you don't try and work hard you simply can't make it on your own. There are too many people expecting to have things given to them. And under Obama we will all have to give a lot more than we are now. I can't afford him. My vote goes to McCain/Palin

Another thing I am wondering is why is Obama comparing himself to Palin when it comes to executive experience? He says his experience is greater because he has run his own Presidential campaign. Why is he comparing himself to her. He is running against McCain not Sarah. He should be comparing his experience to MaCains, not Palins. Right? I will say I was very impressed with Obama when he said to lay off the children, they do not belong in this. It should not be part of the campaign. As for Bristols pregnancy, it just goes to show that they are an ordinary American family living an ordinary life, making mistakes like ordinary people. We need someone like that to fight for our country instead of people who have no idea of how the other half lives.

Enough said

Thanks Jill for sharing these sites. Very interesting reading.


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 2, 2008)

Bassett said:


> Social Security benefits to illegals. Why? I agree if someone needs help, they need help but let them go get it in their own country or go through the proper channels here to become a citizen. The place I retired from (Heat and Glo, production of gas fireplaces) hired more Mexicans and Vietnamese then Americans. One day the law came in and took out the whole of line 5 (30+) (All Mexicans) because none of them had green cards to even be working. We laughed. They were all liars and cheaters.Another thing I am wondering is why is Obama comparing himself to Palin when it comes to executive experience? He says his experience is greater because he has run his own Presidential campaign. Why is he comparing himself to her. He is running against McCain not Sarah. He should be comparing his experience to MaCains, not Palins. Right? I will say I was very impressed with Obama when he said to lay off the children, they do not belong in this. It should not be part of the campaign. As for Bristols pregnancy, it just goes to show that they are an ordinary American family living an ordinary life, making mistakes like ordinary people. We need someone like that to fight for our country instead of people who have no idea of how the other half lives.
> 
> Enough said


Why SS benefits? Because he intends to give them all green cards. Instead of deporting illegal aliens he intends to fast track them into getting their citizenships. So they can be on welfare legally then at our expense. Then when they hit ss age they can collect that too. He is just a mess waiting to happen!

LOL He doesn't have as much experience that Palin has.


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## Jill (Sep 2, 2008)

SweetOpal said:


> While you may be fine with that, I am NOT...I pay 46% of my income now to taxes, I think that is more than enough...My theory is work hard to make a living, if it is not hard enough, work harder!


I think if those "all for" paying more in taxes could hang out with us in the top brackets for a year or two, while others pay a fraction of what we do, they'd sing a different tune. I wonder how many of those all for higher taxes were tickled pink with the rebate check a few months ago... you know, the ones those that REALLY pay into the system did not qualify to receive.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

I'd love to come hang out with you folks in the top bracket for a while. Because then I could probably pay off my car, afford my own house, AND STILL be able to make the contributions to charity, taxes, and this country that I want to make.

That would be awesome!


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## Jill (Sep 2, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> I'd love to come hang out with you folks in the top bracket for a while. Because then I could probably pay off my car, afford my own house, AND STILL be able to make the contributions to charity, taxes, and this country that I want to make.


[SIZE=10pt]_A sign of wisdom and maturity is when you come to terms with the realization that your decisions cause your rewards and consequences. You are responsible for your life, and your ultimate success depends on the choices you make. _[/SIZE]

-- Denis Waitley


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks for that, Jill.


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## Brandi* (Sep 2, 2008)

Thanks for posting this Jill




It is a good break down for those of us who don't stay up to date with all this political hub-bub


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## Tapestry Minis (Sep 2, 2008)

If you are having a hard time paying for things now just think how much harder it will be if MORE of your money is getting taken away? I know I can't aford more of the money I EARN going to someone who is riding the system.

My mom works for a college in their Financial Aid office. You know what most of the kids do with those "FEDERAL GRANTS" TAKE A VACATION!!! That's my hard earned money. Know the last time I took time off work? Last year to go to my uncles funeral. Before that I can't remember the last time I took a vacation.


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## capall beag (Sep 2, 2008)

Very interesting point and certainly the layout is helpful and informative.

Before I comment I will say I am not a US citizen but I am a legal alienas my visa refers to me





So I don't vote. But I am a liberal thinker and would lean pretty far left!

I do find it fascinating how different we all are.

I read this post by Jill

"Well, I'm more in favor of personal responsibility (vs. social program handouts) which is one huge reason I'm a life long Republican. Like I said before, the harder I work and the more I achieve, the more Republican I feel"

My dearest friend a very conservative republican would share this view completely. However, she grew up in a very privaledged home and so hardwork = success for her.

I must say I was very fortunate too and had the opportunity to go to excellent schools, colleges and had access to the very best Ireland had to offer. Not because I worked hard just because I was lucky the family I was born into!

It is for this very reason that I feel my personal responsibility and that of the Government is to "give back through social programs" to give to those, who through no choice of theirs, were born less fortunate so that they can go on to succeed and become personally responsible. Which is why I would vote left

Because for many no matter how hard they work because of their reality, not choice, they do not have the same opportunities I had handed to me for free!

The more I achieve, the more fortunate I become, the more I feel obligated to give back to those who are without.

My friend and I agree to totally disagree!!!!!!!!!!!


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## garyo (Sep 2, 2008)

Tapestry Minis said:


> My mom works for a college in their Financial Aid office. You know what most of the kids do with those "FEDERAL GRANTS" TAKE A VACATION!!!


I can not believe that you would post that as the truth. Would really like to see the proof to back that up. It seems to me that to have a real, meaningful discussion one should stick to FACTS. One loses all credibility when personal opinion is stated as being a fact with no proof to validify the statements.

I have followed most of these political posts the last few days and am supprised at how so many seem to be like limmings, happily following along to be eagerly lead off the cliff.

gary


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## Tapestry Minis (Sep 2, 2008)

I can post that as truth because they flat out tell my mom what they are going to do with it. This is not opinion it comes straight from those students mouths.


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## bingo (Sep 2, 2008)

capall beag said:


> My dearest friend a very conservative republican would share this view completely. However, she grew up in a very privaledged home and so hardwork = success for her. I must say I was very fortunate too and had the opportunity to go to excellent schools, colleges and had access to the very best Ireland had to offer. Not because I worked hard just because I was lucky the family I was born into!
> 
> It is for this very reason that I feel my personal responsibility and that of the Government is to "give back through social programs" to give to those, who through no choice of theirs, were born less fortunate so that they can go on to succeed and become personally responsible. Which is why I would vote left
> 
> ...


I agree with you totally. I have a best friend who believes the opposite of me when it comes to politics. We to have agreed to disagree and it works just fine for us





As for MOST students using federal grants to go on vacation I to have a hard time believing that.

The students I know scrimp and save and use every penny for tuition, school books that can be over $700 a semester as well as living expenses while at school.


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## Danielle_E. (Sep 2, 2008)

Wow, this is an interesting thread to say the least and its interesting to see both sides of the coin. Looking at the tables (comparison tables) that were posted I find some may be accurate but others are not telling the full story, at least by what we have been told by each candidate. I would hope McCain has been around (senate) for 22 years, the man is 71 years old? and Obama is 44?

One thing I do find is americans that keep using the word "socialized" when it comes to medicine and their take on it is as it's like leprosy or something. I don't get it. Can I ask a question of those of you in the U.S. as to how much do you have to spend monthly for your health plans? and in all the claims you have made how many have been denied? Have any of you lost homes or are in major debt because of medical bills? Is it okay for a child to be denied health care because their parents don't have a health plan? or can't afford it? Adults have conrol, kids do not.

It would be interesting to know whether the tax hikes that is in the "table" provides here, the one talking about Obama, wether that includes "universal" health care coverage?

I further understand that in the U.S. you are allowed to deduct your mortgage payments on your taxes? Here in Canada that is not an option. The table at the beginning of this thread, am I correct in assuming that the tax table represents "net" income after all possible deductions have been calculated.

Oh good grief. Sorry I have the t.v. on and am watching CTV news (local news). They are reporting on the Republican convention and one gentleman made the following statement "Oh they love Palin in Canada because of hockey you know"



Sorry but that truly ticks me off. I ADORE hockey but what a stupid stupid statement and hopefully Americans aren't so gullible to believe such an ignorant statement. Just because I love hockey sure doesn't mean I like Palin, good grief. As a matter of fact I don't like Palin at all. I much preferred Hillary and I believe she would have made a good President for the U.S. One of the main reason I don't like Palin is her stance on abortion which includes "incest and rape" victims. I don't believe that the government should have any right over a woman's body, end of story. Taking away that freedom to chose from women will set womens right back and her stance on removing sex education in schools is draconian and will only exacebate the teen pregnancy in the U.S. Combine both those together and it's a recipe for many poor young girls being forced to raise children in poverty. I sure hope Americans give us more credit than just being "passionate about hockey". Sorry to vent but if that guy was in front of me.... it wouldn't be pretty, ROFL.

One thing I do hope is that you two candidates come out during the next 60 some odd days and state EXACTLY what they plan on doing during their term should they be elected. Then it will be much easier if you hear things directly from them and not from the media reading things from 2007 or earlier.


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## Bassett (Sep 2, 2008)

I believe this to be true that a lot of this college money is given to the wrong kids. When my son was in college back in '83-84-85 there were kids there that were going on a free ride. One had a doctor for a Dad and a Lawyer for a Mother. He was going to Stevens Point College on our money. My husband and I worked for $5.60 and $4.85 an hour respectively. We lived a simple life and paid our bills so consequently we did not owe anyone a lot of money. We owned our house so no interest to deduct. As a result of this our son could get absolutely NO financial aid. He had to go on student loans, So Yes some of this money is going into the wrong hands. The more you owe the better chance you get from the Government. That is what is the problem with this country. We are (most of us) living beyond our means. That is the downfall of this country. It is not the Presidents fault.


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## mininik (Sep 2, 2008)

Stating something as fact about what "most" students do based off of one person's experiences with some students really isn't fair, and cannot be considered factual.


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## Danielle_E. (Sep 2, 2008)

I think to be fair to BOTH candidates that people should go to each of the candidates websites and see exactly what they are offering as far as lets say health care. What I see in the tables provided does not give an accurate picture and leads people to not have the full information which is important to be informed correctly.

http://www.johnmccain.com/Informing/Issues...cf2edb527cf.htm

http://www.barackobama.com/issues/healthcare/


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

Danielle, to answer your question health insurance through my job is $900 a month. I don't make $900 a month at this job. I suspect it's high because I'm a part-time employee and it costs them more to insure me. If I were full time it would be lower.


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## tagalong (Sep 2, 2008)

> I think to be fair to BOTH candidates that people should go to each of the candidates websites and see exactly what they are offering as far as lets say health care. What I see in the tables provided does not give an accurate picture and leads people to not have the full information which is important to be informed correctly.


Exactly right. Too many people accept what "facts" they are fed at face value and applaud said facts - without further investigation. Laura posted the tax info from Snopes to show how inaccurate that was...

BTW - McCain has also flip-flopped on some issues....



> Stating something as fact about what "most" students do based off of one person's experiences with some students really isn't fair, and cannot be considered factual.


Agreed. I have never known anyone who used their student loans for "vacations"....


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## [email protected] (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks for the comparision sheet Jill.

As a dyed in the wool Democrat (okay I was pro Nixon although not old enough to vote - lol), you could not pay me to vote for Obama!!!!

Seriously I don't mean to disrespect anyones opinions but I do not get the appeal of that guy. He's inexperienced, his platform of 'its not your fault, we'll change things and please whine some more' I just find reprehensible. There is a big difference from a handout and a hand up. I'm all for helping people to stand on their own two feet with a percentage of our annual income earmarked for charitable purposes. But, I do not support the ever-growing American attitude of 'its not my fault'. That is not what made our country great but it is what will sink us.

Now I do not agree with McCain 100% and would actively be letter writing/calling my congressional representatives on some things should they come to pass, but his overall experience, integrity and abilities are what we need in a President.

The only thing I could see worse for our country than Bush's second term is Obama in office!!! Surprisingly ALL my democrat friends are voting McCain as well. I had expected more of a division as is the usual, but not so!


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 3, 2008)

Michelle, you may want to go back and read the thread. A lot of the information in the chart posted is false.


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## Crabby-Chicken (Sep 3, 2008)

....Thanks Mary Lou,,,,

She sounds lovely.


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## Laura (Sep 3, 2008)

Thanks for the link to a very interesting article Mary Lou. I do have to say that my outbursts during tonight's speech nearly woke up both kids


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 4, 2008)

Yes the truth does come out and she definitely is a Republican that loves to spend taxpayers money. There is no doubt that she did deliver the well writen speech, one that makes her sound good but for someone who truly knows her it didn'y hold much truth. I truly believe she will only put our country futher in debt by catering to the rich and ignoring the real problems that has come about from having a Republican at the head. She may look good but that just enough to run this wonderful country that is in danger in many ways.


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

Here's another comparison. I think Palin's more qualified to be president than is Obama.
























































For more information: http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2...vs-barack-obam/


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## Lisa Strass (Sep 4, 2008)

[email protected] said:


> There is a big difference from a handout and a hand up. I'm all for helping people to stand on their own two feet with a percentage of our annual income earmarked for charitable purposes. But, I do not support the ever-growing American attitude of 'its not my fault'. That is not what made our country great but it is what will sink us.


Well said, Michelle!

And Jill, I really like the newest comparison.


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## li'l bit (Sep 4, 2008)

Geesh!!! Who is writing up these comparisons??? Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly.








I clicked on this thread thinking I would find some useful information. Waste of time. FWIW, I like McCain, but Republicans just drink too much of the



Kool-Aid. Guess I'll search elsewhere for some unslanted information.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 4, 2008)

Are there really no unbiased comparisons you can find, Jill? That one is so clearly slanted I don't even know what to say. I really do hope that was posted as a joke.


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

*Lisa* -- thank you









*Lil Bit and Lowrise* --

The information on the chart is all true. Period. It's True. If you don't like the contrast, well..........................

If you want to talk about bias, have you noticed anything LEFT about the majority of the US newspapers; ABC, CBS, and NBC network news; and MSNBC, HLN and CNN "cable" news channels? Which is probably exactly what gives you the "facts" on which you base your opinions.

Thank goodness for Fox News.

Jill


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 4, 2008)

li'l bit said:


> Geesh!!! Who is writing up these comparisons??? Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Lilbit, I think you will have a very hard time trying to find information that doesn't have someone on the other end of that info that isn't compassionate about the candidate. Look at Sarah Palin. She has an 80% approval rating in her state. That leaves 20% that will be very aggressive towards trying to defame her. She is a republican that went in and cleaned house of other republicans that were doing wrong. That left a huge bitter taste in a lot of peoples taste buds. She stepped on toes that most people in her position would have just turned a blind eye to it. People in Alaska receive $100 a month to help with utilities bills. Thanks to Sarah Palin. Media is tearing her apart just because she is a mother, has an engaged teenage daughter that is pregnant and her husband got a DUI 26 years ago. If there was anything worse than that they would have already smeared it across the tabloids.

There you have my view. I am compassionate about it. I am a republican. I do not drink.





Fran


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

li'l bit said:


> Geesh!!! Who is writing up these comparisons??? Sean Hannity and Bill O'Reilly.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hannity and O'Reilly are the answer / response to the vast majority of US news sources which lean so far to the left that they probably spot daylight an hour after I do in VA.

Mostly, I just drink diet ice tea (Crystal Light knock off from Walmart, now that's bound to be controversial). But on election night, it's going to be mojitos and Fox News all night long. Hopefully toasting the Nation for getting it right and not drowning my disappointment


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## li'l bit (Sep 5, 2008)

You are entitled to your opinions as much as I am entitled to mine. I "think" that is still allowed. I tend to take whatever I hear from ANY news source, whatever I read, internet or otherwise, and politicians with a grain of salt. I just find it interesting that it only took the rest of the country 6 years to become dissatisfied with the current presidency when I was questioning their motives in 2002, and getting a load of BS from the die hard R's because of it. Now, they are all asking the same questions and complaining about the same things I was back then. Go figure.





I wish you the best of outcomes in your life whichever candidate you choose.


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## tagalong (Sep 5, 2008)

> I tend to take whatever I hear from ANY news source, whatever I read, internet or otherwise, and politicians *with a grain of salt*.


Agreed. But more like - a _truckload _of salt at times...





[SIZE=8pt]_I forgot - I am not allowed to have an opinion. Sorry._[/SIZE]


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

tagalong said:


> > I tend to take whatever I hear from ANY news source, whatever I read, internet or otherwise, and politicians *with a grain of salt*.
> 
> 
> Agreed. But more like - a _truckload _of salt at times...
> ...




Thank can I ask - How do you decide who to vote for?


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