# Educational Dwarf Pictures



## Tremor

I emailed one of the mods last night asking for the go ahead to create a thread that could later be pinned as an educational thread. I do have special guide lines that I would greatly appreciate everybody follow.

They will be bolded below.

*1. MUST be pictures of horses that YOU have owned previously or bred. *

*2. PLEASE upload these pictures to the gallery here at Lil' Beginnings so that they will not be lost. Facebook pictures, photobucket, etc are not where I would like them to provided from. All of those providers can be deleted and moved and the first will be lost. Same goes for pictures provided straight from your computer. Again, PLEASE post into the gallery (or make your own album) and add them into here.*

*3. Foal pictures, adult, and parent pictures would be kind if you're open and honest enough about it. (Again, assuming you have pursonally owned the parents!)*

*4. If you are educated enough to the point where you know what type of dwarf they were; please share that information along with their age, how they lived, if they're deceased, and they're deformities if you know of any.*

This thread is not for everybody. If you are not willing to share pictures or be completely honest then don't post. I would rather this thread be completely educational and not be filled with snarky drama.

I will start out with my own herd. We have ceased breeding. Our stallion was sold and our colts gelded.

*Type 1 Dwarves:*

Teddy- Born April 28th, 2007. Gelded.

Birth





Four Years Old





*Type 2 Dwarves:*

Trae- May 2010. Deceased Colt. Put down after 1 year.

Foal









Wendall- May 2009. Deceased Colt. Passed at Two days.





*Type 3 Dwarves:*

Simon- Born May 2007. Deceased; died during weaning period at 6 months.





Boomer- Born April 22, 2009. Still Alive. Gelded. Renamed Flash!

6 months





1 year





All of these foals share the same sire. Two of these foals share the same dam.

I will post parents in the next post.

I hope all of you follow. Thank you for looking and hopefully posting.

Thanks again,

Julia (Tremor)


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## Tremor

*Parents-*

Sire of foals (Dagnillos Crown Jewels) -Carrier of Type 1, 2, & 3





Teddy's Dam (Honey) -Possible Dwarf





Boomer's Dam (BL Hooten Hollows Bow Tie) -Carrier of Type 3





Wendall's Dam (Timberviews Snoozin' Suzy) -Carrier of Type 2





Simon and Trae's Dam (Jazzy) -Carrier of Type 1, 2, & 3





(The above mare's picture of her before she passed. She had a neaurological disorder diagnosed by our vet. She had superb conformation. Her back roached [full sister's later did as well] and she ended up loosing weight. She was also lame. All of this happened after Trae was born and may have resulted from his traumatic delivery. When I think back to this mare I truly feel that had she have lived until 2011 I could have cared for her in a way to make her comfortable.)


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## ozymandias

BRAVO !!!!

I have to congratulate you for having the courage to post pics not only of the dwarfs but of the mares and sires. It's about time someone cared enough to do so. If my mini's produced a dwarf you'd certainly see their pictures posted here too. I'm sure that because most people "hide" away their dwarfs and the horses who produced them that we keep getting more and more.

Well done and I sincerely hope other have the courage to follow suit.







Edited to say - this will be a very educational thread. Looking at a couple of those foals I'd never have guessed they were dwarfs.


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## ohmt

While i applaud your initiative to educate others about dwarfism, i am not sure i agree with trying to do so using pictures of horses from "just anyone" (excuse my poor wording) when dwarfism threads have proven many do not agree what differentiates dwarf and bad conformation. With so many "newbies" coming on here and asking, i would prefer to have them read John Eberth's Q&A on here, even if it is a few years old. I woud hate for someone to think they see dwarf characteristics and jump to conclusions.


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## Tremor

ohmt said:


> While i applaud your initiative to educate others about dwarfism, i am not sure i agree with trying to do so using pictures of horses from "just anyone" (excuse my poor wording) when dwarfism threads have proven many do not agree what differentiates dwarf and bad conformation. With so many "newbies" coming on here and asking, i would prefer to have them read John Eberth's Q&A on here, even if it is a few years old. I woud hate for someone to think they see dwarf characteristics and jump to conclusions.


I didn't soley post this thread so that people could "diagnose" their mini as a dwarf. Its a lot deeper then just looking at the picture.

1st. You have to see a problem.

2nd. Look at conformation

3rd. Look at the pedigree. If you look deep enough you may see known dwarves in the line. A lot of my minis have those.

So, looking at a picture is not going to help. I also did not find John Eberths posts helpful. I am a visual learner and could not get through the posts when the original pictures weren't there. That is just how I learn. Especially when it came to threads about horses that he deemed to just have bad conformation.

I did make this thread for the people who ask for pictures. Since I've joined this forum I have had MANY, MANY people ask me for pictures of my dwarves; which I am always glad to provide. I figured that this may as well be the go to place for dwarf pictures. I have spent years looking up information on dwarves and have never found a great place for dwarf pictures other than the webpages that deal with the dwarf heaven and the Lil' Bits Magic Shoes.

I also don't think that these pictures are from "just anyone". Pictures from "just anyone" would be the widley shared pictures that show up on the first page of a google search image. These pictures I am hoping will be from people who others can identify with. Breeders and owners who have loved their minis and hoped for a perfect foal and instead produced a deformed foal.


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## ohmt

I know you were not starting it so people could diagnose, but i'm saying that's what will happen. I am thinking of people new to minis and/or dwarfism just looking at pictures and then coming to their own conclusions. For me, i want examples from researchers and nothing less otherwise we may be leading people astray. Like your little appy-to me he is very poorly conformed, not dwarf. Not only is there dwarf vs poor conformation, but also the heterozygous recessive gene fighting the dominant genes and thus showing a few dwarf characteristics yet not resulting in a dwarf. Dwarfism is a very conplex thing and i think it needs someone involved in the research first hand to lead an educational thread like this otherwise it may do the opposite. Looking at the various posts on the dwarfism forum where so many had told the owners they had a dwarf and John said otherwise, well, things like this make me nervous. We need more education from those making progress in research, but until then we have to learn from what we've got and we have an amazingly informational forum right here. Let's not take a step backward, even if that's not the intention.

Your second paragraph-again taking my meaning out of context. I did say to excuse my poor wording, right? I meant anyone not involved in the research and educated enough to really be looking at horses and classifying whether it's a dwarf or not and what type. John has general descriptions of the types, along with a few general patterns of conformation of sires and dams that produce certain type.He has seen thousands and has spent years researching at the genetic level. Let's hope we get more info soon-reliable info from the scientists who should be the ones educating. Until then, let's learn what we can from him and not step backward from what he's given. I would hate for generalizations to be made here.

I know your intentions were very good. I hope you son't get upset with me for thinking it's not a good idea.


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## StarRidgeAcres

Amanda, which appy horse are you saying looks poorly conformed, versus a dwarf?


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## ohmt

The chestnut appy, sorry i should have specified! It is easy to pick out that his dam is Honey. They are conformationally extremely similar and to me very poorly conformed, but not dwarf, based on what i read on the dwarf forum here. And i could very well be wrong, but that kind of goes with my point that we do not bow enough just yet. The big debate over Einstein is a wonderful example.

P.a.-excuse the spelling errors-using my phon.


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## Tremor

Am I mad? No. We just disagree on stuff.





On the topic of Teddy I do firmly believe that he's a dwarf; just not severe. He does have his health issues but they don't seem to stop him any. He's the most stubborn horse in my herd and can hold his own. He's a stinker!

Part of the reason that I think he's a dwarf (besides pedigree and conformation) is the full brother his dam produced in 2009; stillborn. Didn't even know she was pregnant. He was a normal sized foal. The size I would expect a 30+ inch mini would have been born at. It's a shame he was stillborn as it would have been incredible to compare him to his two living full siblings.

To each their own. I have firm beliefs that there are certain confirmation faults are a sign of dwarfism or being a carrier. Ear size is one. Teddy for example has TINY ears. His did as well and carries all three types. Another daughter I have out of a different mare does too. My mare Bow has tiny ears as well and produced a dwarf.

All of my other minis have normal sized ears.


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## Tremor

Again on the topic of Teddy and his dam Honey, I do believe height has an effect in all this. I am not saying she is a dwarf but a carrier seems to be the safest answer for her.

Comparing her height to Teddy's; she is 30-32" while he is 26.50" tall. Same traits, just smushed into 4+ less inches.

I have always wanted to see pictures of Honey as a foal/young mare. I can imagine her foal pictures to resemble Teddy. Age seems to be another factor. She looked nicer in pictures from 2005 as a five year old but since her body seems to have gone down hill after 2007. I can't describe it very well but she just seemed much...voluptuous? She is at a good weight now but nothing flows like it used to; you know what I'm saying?


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## ohmt

And there is an excellent reason why i believe people will start making generalizations that do not always hold true. You give the small ear theory, well, how many newbies are going to look at this, read that theory and see the dwarves you do have so believe the generalization and then think their horses are dwarf or dwarf carriers because of small ears. To get people to think about dwarfism is great, but it needs to be done in a way that does not cause assumptions or even paranoia. Small ears are a sign of dwarfism, but not alwaus. Bow is not a dwarf, but has small ears. Is that due to a recessive dwarf gene trying to fight a dominant gene or does she just have small ears? If so, why can that not be the answer for Teddy's small ears as well and maybe another characteristic or two mixed with some conformational faults? See where i'm going?


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## StarRidgeAcres

Maybe I'm one of those that classifies too many as dwarves, but Teddy and Honey, to me, are both without question. Maybe I'm just really sensitive to it since having a stallion that produced one (Corona), but I would have never questioned either. Still don't. But that's just me. Buddy I don't think I would have looked at and thought "carrier" but the others...

I did own a mare for a while that I sometimes wondered if she was a carrier. She's had about 8 foals over the years and none exhibited characteristics imo, but I've always seen subtle things in her that made me wonder. That's why she is no longer in my breeding program and her only offspring I have is a gelding  Not worth the risk down the road for me or someone else.


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## StarRidgeAcres

ohmt said:


> Bow is not a dwarf, but has small ears. Is that due to a recessive dwarf gene trying to fight a dominant gene or does she just have small ears? If so, why can that not be the answer for Teddy's small ears as well and maybe another characteristic or two mixed with some conformational faults? See where i'm going?


I've always thought Bow was a dwarf. Weird. Maybe I'm one of those that's "too" paranoid about it. But she's another one, the for me, there is no question.


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## Tremor

I do not think that saying that small ears are a sign of being a carrier is an assumption. With knowing that each of the horses with small ears has dwarves in their background or has produced dwarves AND knowing that small ears are a trait of a Type 2 dwarf (Achindroplasia dwarf). You can see those small ears on my two Type 2 colts Wendall and Trae.

I have never heard of the theory of dwarves and carriers having small ears outside of the Type 2 dwarf. I had always meant to make a thread about them in the main forum because it seems to be a vast coincidence and I have seen it in an outside mare as well so it's not just isolated to my herd.

Here is my view on all of this and the topic of newbies. There is no testing for dwarfism yet. We realize it is out there and do our best to critique our horses. We see traits that have been attributed to be shared with dwarves. Obviously not good traits. We start to think that it may be a carrier or dwarf and decide to take it out of the gene pool. Not bad. Good.

I don't think that, that is such a bad thing. Dwarfism is a wide spectrum; I think of it much like Autism because of that. There are so many ranges and some that we have not yet discovered.


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## ohmt

Parm-maybe you classify too many, but as a breeder that's not such a bad thing





Tremor-we can agree to disagree. I'm not saying you're wrong, but i'm saying who is to tell us whether you are or not? Not anyone outside of the research can, which is my whole point here. I will stick with what John gave us





I will leave it at that-i've made my opinion known so all is well. Good luck.


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## Lizzie

Parmela, I so agree that Bow is a dwarf.

I first met Tremor a couple of years back on another forum. I could see she was breeding dwarfs and encouraged her to look into the problem and to join this forum. She did and has never looked back. She took the advice I suggested and stopped breeding. Because of the number of dwarfs she has produced, she has really looked into the entire thing and also posted the pedigrees of her dwarfs. Many would not have. Many would have told me to get lost. I also know that Tremor is younger than most of us here, but has taken what was offered and run with it. That is something I admire about her. Young people don't always want to listen and learn. I'm pretty proud of our Tremor.

Lizzie


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## earthchild

1


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## ohmt

They are not dwarf, but they have poor conformation. I do not agree that Bow is a dwarf, but she does have conformational faults that I know Tremor is aware of. I am proud of her as well


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## ozymandias

earthchild said:


> So let's do some educating. Would you say my little guys have dwarf characteristics or poor conformation, or both? In my area, this is what a typical breeding stud looks like.


Just very poor conformation certainly not breeding quality. You're from NC? Not all studs in your area are like that I think Jill is from NC and she has top quality studs...you may want to get in contact with her. Not sure if she breeds to outside mares but worth a try.


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## Mona

Jill is from PA, but minimomNC is from NC.


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## Tremor

earthchild said:


> So let's do some educating. Would you say my little guys have dwarf characteristics or poor conformation, or both? In my area, this is what a typical breeding stud looks like.View attachment 8571
> View attachment 8572
> View attachment 8573


*sigh* I lost my first post.

I believe that these boys have multiple things going on with them.


Poor Diet (Notice big bellies and weak/thin necks. I would suggest having a fecal exam done by your vet and talk to them about a worming program)

Poor Conformation (Sickle hocks, possible cow hocks on the bay, butt high on the bay, over at the knee, etc.)

Poor Hoof Care (No hoof, no horse. Right?)


On the topic of Bow again, I do not right out believe that she herself is a dwarf. I do however recognize her as having dwarf characteristics.


Cow hocks

Monkey Mouth (Severe underbite.....)

Nostrils on top of face)

Short, squat, wide face.

Butt high

Domed head (and not the pretty kind....)

Small ears (I stand by this as a trait.)

Short neck

Long back


That's nine conformational faults just off of the top of my head.

Now, just because I feel bad for dissing her I feel the need to say some good things about her. Lol


FANTASTIC mother!

Easy breeder (Obviously....)

SUPER foaler! (Not a single dystocia and births from water breaking - foal completely out is less than two minutes)

Good manners

Good mover (Shocker!)

Super willing

DID in fact produce some nice foals

Good jumper

Really good at setting up and ground tieing

Would be a heck of a showmanship horse


Yes, I worked hard to get ten good things about her. You can I care about the old gal (Gosh, she's only ten!)

Needless to say that I will forever be cautious to sell her. She is everything a BYB would want. Color producer, fantastic foaler, and horrible conformation! Perfect for making lots of babies!

I know of a stallion that is her HALF-brother and is DROOL worthy. His bottom side is Boones through and through. LOVE him. Does he look like Bow? Polar, freaking opposites. If anybody is interested I can PM them the link because it is mind blowing. I wish I owned him....or could even pet him.


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## Tremor

The following post was made by the user Mona in a Dwarf discussion thread in the main forum. With her permission I am quoting the post and saving the pictures to the gallery for a more permanent source.



Mona said:


> Just to show you the change they can go through, here is one I had born here several years ago. When "Star" was born, I could immediately see she was much "clunkier" than a normal foal, and had that bull-doggy type chest/shoulder combination and short neck. I think we as breeders find it harder to identify these ones that are a little more minimally expressed at birth, than perhaps onlookers can see. We fall instantly in love with them, like they are our own, making it more difficult. I remember when Star was born. immediately thinking dwarf, but then going back and forth, argueing with myself whether she was actually a dwarf or if she just had poor conformation instead. I got to the point where I knew if I knew deep down that she wqas a dwarf and if I was questioning myself that strongly, she must be! (and I was right!)
> 
> When she was born, she looked fairly normal while still wet.
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> So my point in posting these, was just sort of to let you know that sometimes we seem to know in our hearts that they are not "normal" but find it hard to accept unless they signs are BLARING OBVIOUS. This was the second dwarf foal born to this mare (2 different sires), and she was not used again for breeding.



I would like to thank Mona for making the original post and for letting me use it.


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## Mona

You're welcome. Glad I could help.


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## little lady

Being new(what I consider new anyway) to the miniature horse world I greatly appreciate this thread. When I deicded to switch from Paint horses to Miniatures I would look where ever I could for any and all information(and still do). I attended a miniature horse breeding and foaling seminar at Little King Farm a couple of years ago and John Eberth spoke about the dwarfism in the miniature horse. It was amazing and I would like to tell anyone interested that to listen to him speak and be able to ask questions was a most pheonomenal experience! He has such a wealth of knowledge for this. I do beleive he has more updated information than what is posted here on the Dwarfism foroum here. I am hoping someday to go listen to him speak again.

Tremor I applaud you for trying to educate and share with others. That is fantastic! I too am a better hands on/picture learner. I certainly would hope that some day you will be able to meet and hear John Eberth speak I think you would love it!


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## StarRidgeAcres

North Carolina has some of the BEST breeders around!!! You just need to find them. Some I would recommend are

ganderhill.com

aksminiatures.com

luckfourfarms.com

ravenwoodminiatures.com


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## earthchild

1


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## Jill

If I'm the "Jill" you all mean, I'm in VA




But have nothing for sale at this time, and don't stand the guys to the public... But I am flattered to be thought of and mentioned



And would love to help a fellow mini enthusiast in any other way


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## ozymandias

Jill said:


> If I'm the "Jill" you all mean, I'm in VA
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> But have nothing for sale at this time, and don't stand the guys to the public... But I am flattered to be thought of and mentioned
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> And would love to help a fellow mini enthusiast in any other way


Sorry, don't know why I thought it was NC


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## Mona

LOL! Well Jill, looks like you're a "worldly woman"! We've got you living all over the place! LOL!


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## Tremor

I feel the need to go back to the topic of Bow and her offspring.

I think that this would be a fantastic image of how dwarfism can pop up; even among normal offspring.

Dam:






Sire:






Dwarf Offspring:






Normal Offspring:






I hope that this helps paint a better picture for some people.


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## D W 2

Just wanted to add some pictures


this was taken at 3 hours old


This picture is of her at approx 6-8 weeks old


This one was approx 4 months old


This is the picture we got of her as a yearling

Hope this all works or I will have to retry when I figure this picture thing out.


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## ClaraN

Does anyone have any more photos to add to this older thread?


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