# Attaching side check question



## Marsha Cassada (Jan 27, 2011)

I put Dusty back in blinders today, as I want to start getting him ready for a show. I've never had the side check on him, so I worked on attaching that to the bridle. I use a myler bit on him and I either don't know where to put the check rein, or it won't fit on this bit. The headstall and check won't both fit in the top loop. I had to use his french link to today instead.

Here is his bit. Where does the side check attach?







He did very well with the check. I had it very loose. I will take it up a hole next time. I think the check ought to be optional. What a pain.


----------



## RhineStone (Jan 27, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I think the check ought to be optional. What a pain.


I don't know what to tell you, as I don't use a check anymore either, but I totally agree with you on the above statement.



Who do you contact to get your opinion heard and your voice to matter?



I know how to get a rule changed in ADS and really it isn't that hard if the Rule Change Proposal is logical, but if you all want it to change in the breed organizations, you need to start somewhere.

Myrna


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Jan 27, 2011)

A rule change is not difficult at all. You simply write your proposal- submit it- it will be presented at Convention if you are not there to amend any bit of the wording and there is a question or clarification needed it will be voted down however if you are there and the majority votes for it- it will be passed pretty simple


----------



## disneyhorse (Jan 27, 2011)

Both the headstall/bridle cheek pieces AND the check rein are to attach to the bit perch, which is that loop on the top. What brand of harness do you have? A lot of harnesses and bits aren't great about "scale"... it's too thick to fit places sometimes, I've had that problem. If you attach the check rein elsewhere, it will interfere with bit action if it's tight.

Andrea


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Jan 27, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


> Both the headstall/bridle cheek pieces AND the check rein are to attach to the bit perch, which is that loop on the top. What brand of harness do you have? A lot of harnesses and bits aren't great about "scale"... it's too thick to fit places sometimes, I've had that problem. If you attach the check rein elsewhere, it will interfere with bit action if it's tight.
> 
> Andrea


If I attach it somewhere else on the bit, where would you suggest? I don't plan to have it tight. I'm using the Ozark carriage harness on him. I can't use the bridle on my other harness as it is too small for him. But I don't want to cause a potential problem either. I may just have to use the french link when I have the check on.


----------



## targetsmom (Jan 27, 2011)

The way I do it (must have seen it somewhere) is to attach the headstall to the loop at the top (never knew it was the bit perch) and the side check just below that. If you think of the lower part as a "D" ring, it is the top front part of the "D". It actually fits a lot better than it sounds like it will!!! Then the rein attaches in the curved part of the "D" of course, so the straps go from cheek piece to side-check to rein, sort of top to bottom. I hope this makes some degree of sense. It may not be right, but it was the only way I could get all the parts to fit.

ETA: I don't use a tight check and this works just fine; might be a problem with a tight check though.


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Jan 27, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> The way I do it (must have seen it somewhere) is to attach the headstall to the loop at the top (never knew it was the bit perch) and the side check just below that. If you think of the lower part as a "D" ring, it is the top front part of the "D". It actually fits a lot better than it sounds like it will!!! Then the rein attaches in the curved part of the "D" of course, so the straps go from cheek piece to side-check to rein, sort of top to bottom. I hope this makes some degree of sense. It may not be right, but it was the only way I could get all the parts to fit.
> 
> ETA: I don't use a tight check and this works just fine; might be a problem with a tight check though.


Is this what you mean?


----------



## targetsmom (Jan 28, 2011)

Not quite--- your diagram actually has the check and the rein in the same "slot" . I put my check in the slot directly UNDER the headstall slot.I know it seems odd, but it should work, as mine does. Sorry I can't do a diagram for you.


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Jan 28, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> Not quite--- your diagram actually has the check and the rein in the same "slot" . I put my check in the slot directly UNDER the headstall slot.I know it seems odd, but it should work, as mine does. Sorry I can't do a diagram for you.


Okay! I'll try it.


----------



## Sandee (Jan 28, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> Is this what you mean?


I have to use it this way also. However, IF I could get the check (clip) to fit either with the headstall or in that space just to the left and beneath it (in the picture), that's where I would prefer it to be.


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Feb 12, 2011)

I liked the idea of attaching the side check to the caveson. I can't remember who suggested it. I tried it today and it worked fine. Now I can use the bit he likes. Have I attached it in the correct spot?


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 12, 2011)

That looks like a good inconspicuous location to me.





Myrna


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 12, 2011)

Can it really be that easy? I know people were talking about rewording the rules to eliminate that work-around



and I thought they'd done it, but apparently not according to the rule book. It says "Side or over-checks are required. When

shown, the horse must have blinders (round or square) and the check must be hooked." But it doesn't say hooked _to the bit_.

It also may allow a butterfly bit depending on the interpretation of the rule. It says "Bits in the pleasure driving division shall be of the snaffle type. No liverpool bits, curb chains or curb straps are allowed." So by the second sentence it would be allowed on the snaffle setting as long as there was no curb chain or strap, but by the first sentence it isn't a snaffle _type_ and therefore wouldn't be allowed. Hmm.

Leia


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Feb 12, 2011)

An interesting thing I noticed while driving was even though it isn't hooked to the bit, since the caveson goes through the headstall that makes enough pressure on the side check when Dusty tries to put his head down. I might try tightening the check a little now so it looks tidier on his mane.

As an aside, I finally got to drive Dapper Dan today--first time since October. I used the merino nose pad on the girth next to the surgery site. I didn't notice it's thickness making much difference to cinching; it is the softest stuff! Of course, as Leia pointed out, he is shaved there! It was so much fun to drive my mature, steady boy and not have to bother with the juvenile mentality for a change! THAT'S my idea of Country Pleasure driving.


----------



## Shari (Feb 12, 2011)

I use that bit with Maggie and I have her side check attached to the bit, not sure I have a photo of it though. Have to use a side check on her so she won't get her head down and eat grass.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 13, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> As an aside, I finally got to drive Dapper Dan today--first time since October. I used the merino nose pad on the girth next to the surgery site. ... It was so much fun to drive my mature, steady boy and not have to bother with the juvenile mentality for a change! THAT'S my idea of Country Pleasure driving.


Nice!



How'd he go? Was he happy to be back in harness? That juvenile mentality is one major reason I'm waiting until Turbo is three to even start him. I don't want to deal with all the silliness when I can start six months or a year later and be in the same place without all the battles.





Leia


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Feb 15, 2011)

You all know this is a pet peeve of mine, so I shall try to be gentle.

The check on the cavesson is OK by the rules- they have not closed the loophole and were actually looking into making it optional, the last I heard. We do not use them in our shows here unless the show is run under AMHA rules then the same horses that have been proven not only to be safe but much happier, all the rest of the year, have to have the flipping thing.

Marsha, if the check is there for safety purposes, why would you wish to tighten it?

The check rein is not and has never been supposed to alter the horses head carriage. If you tighten it whilst it is on the cavesson, not only will you cause rubbing as the cavesson is not intended for this purpose, but you will get a horse that "balances" on the check, as I have seen often happen with imported horses. If you leave it loose neither of these things will happen.

If you use a nice length of cord it looks a lot more delicate than the heavy rolled leather, too.

Since none of my AMHA horses are harness trained this rule will, happily, never affect me.

And, once again, I have to point out that we do actually have grass, loads of it, but we do not have horses that need checks to prevent them eating. That is not what it is for, either.

In fact I am not sure anyone remembers what it was for, originally.

Just as blinders had nothing to do with safety or concentration, the check rein was to stop a horse putting it's head down and getting the rein over the shaft.

Then the abusers found it.

Then, basically, in Europe at least, Anna Sewell happened!

OK, rant over


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Feb 15, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> You all know this is a pet peeve of mine, so I shall try to be gentle.
> 
> The check on the cavesson is OK by the rules- they have not closed the loophole and were actually looking into making it optional, the last I heard. We do not use them in our shows here unless the show is run under AMHA rules then the same horses that have been proven not only to be safe but much happier, all the rest of the year, have to have the flipping thing.
> 
> ...


Always interesting to learn of the origins of equipment! Having had a rein over a shaft before, I can certainly see how dangerous that would be in a commercial situation, such as a public conveyance.

I was going to tighten it because it is loose and flapping and detracting. Just enough to make it look more tidy. I'm just introducing it to him now so that he will get used to the concept. The way I have it now he can put his nose on the ground. He does that sometimes when we're working on the road--I suppose he smells something interesting there. So, when I say I am going to tighten the check, it is just enough to lay better on his neck, and not flop around. He must get used to it if I plan to show him. I have no intention of using it to alter his headset.

So, what's the history of the caveson? I don't use it, either, but it is also part of the "show picture". Dusty and I are both trying to follow the rules. There is so much leather on his head right now!


----------



## Shari (Feb 15, 2011)

I also don't use the side check to alter Maggie's headset, that is easy to see in the photos I post.

I do use it to keep her from getting her head down to graze, lets see you break your back and lots of issues from that and be able to keep a horse's head up when they want it down.

Bad training, no, she does know better but she also will take advantage if something looks really good to her. I don't have the hand strength to get her head back up and I am not going to beat on her to get her moving. Nor am I going to stop driving just because I have physical problems.

I know you have your pet peeves but not everything is cut and dry.

Caveson, it is used to keep a horse's mouth shut so they can't evade the bit.

I use one but you can put two fingers end on end, so it is not tight.


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 15, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> So, what's the history of the caveson? I don't use it, either, but it is also part of the "show picture".


The caveson, properly made and attached to the cheek pieces, is to keep the blinders/blinkers from gaping and allowing the horse to see behind them. See those loops that are on the inside in between the two outside keepers right under the blinkers? The caveson hanger strap goes through those loops to keep the blinkers close to the horse's face.






A horse without blinkers will anticipate the whip because they can see it coming, therefore not allowing the driver to be able to use the whip as they intended. Say you wanted to use it on the horse's belly to get them to move their belly over and bend, but if they see it coming they may scoot forward instead. Bad score in a Dressage test!

A riding horse isn't able to see the rider's legs as easily and the cues are more subtle than a whip being furrelled and unfurrelled.

The check is not used in carriage driving except in certain historic turnouts. I have actually had the CHECK get hooked under the horse's shaft and cause the horse to rear. The BEST thing to keep your horse's head off the ground is training.

There are very few parts of a carriage harness that don't have a logical reason to be there.

Myrna


----------



## Margo_C-T (Feb 15, 2011)

A bit OT, but Myrna, your photo leads me to ask what kind of bit that is? Is it a butterfly? It seems to have quite a 'tall' perch, relatively speaking...almost appears as if the mouthpiece 'slides'up and down, but I'm guessing that really ISN'T the case? Perhaps it is just the camera angle, but it piqued my curiousity!

Margo


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 15, 2011)

It is a 4.5" Arch Butterfly. Yes, it has a tall "purchase" (the part above the mouthpiece), and it does slide up and down a little bit (I don't care for that part, but...) It is an English made bit that was given to me to try on Alax because he is such a "fussy" mouthed horse. So far, it is what he goes best in and I have tried A LOT of different bits on him. He CAN'T STAND a snaffle (direct rein) pull, and likes the curb action better. I think it is because he has fat lips and tongue and the snaffle pinches more. He would rather the bit rotate than pinch. I did have one judge that looked at his bit and said that it was too big, but then in the next breath said that he seemed to go well on it. The other thing he can't stand is the bit touching the sides of his face. That is why the 4.5 has worked better than the 4" low port Liverpool I used to drive him in. In a lot of ways, that bit "breaks the rules" for bitting a mini (mouthpiece too wide, should only use a snaffle on a mini, etc.) but it is what he is happy in so I'm not going to fight it.






Myrna


----------



## Margo_C-T (Feb 15, 2011)

I hear you, and agree 100%! I'd say that the width would be a bit of a 'saving grace' in helping prevent pinching, given the way the bit is made...and I am absolutely ALL FOR using what makes the HORSE happy, comfortable, and willing to work!

Margo


----------



## Sue_C. (Feb 16, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> It is a 4.5" Arch Butterfly. Yes, it has a tall "purchase" (the part above the mouthpiece), and it does slide up and down a little bit (I don't care for that part, but...) It is an English made bit that was given to me to try on Alax because he is such a "fussy" mouthed horse. So far, it is what he goes best in and I have tried A LOT of different bits on him. He CAN'T STAND a snaffle (direct rein) pull, and likes the curb action better. I think it is because he has fat lips and tongue and the snaffle pinches more. He would rather the bit rotate than pinch. I did have one judge that looked at his bit and said that it was too big, but then in the next breath said that he seemed to go well on it. The other thing he can't stand is the bit touching the sides of his face. That is why the 4.5 has worked better than the 4" low port Liverpool I used to drive him in. In a lot of ways, that bit "breaks the rules" for bitting a mini (mouthpiece too wide, should only use a snaffle on a mini, etc.) but it is what he is happy in so I'm not going to fight it.
> 
> 
> 
> Myrna


He sounds a lot like Crackers, the mare in my avatar...she was very-very difficult to bit as well. I finally ended up with a 4.50" single broken pinchless D-ring for her...much to large, much too heavy, and my most hated mouthpiece...but she was happy. After several years off from driving,spent as a broodmare, when I started her again, I tried a regular french link, but ended up with a 3.75" french link butterfly, and she loves it even better than her former "too large-too heavy" single joint...and now I am happy as well.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 16, 2011)

Sounds like the "perch" some of us have heard it called was a layman's shortening of "purchase!" I love figuring out word origins.





Leia


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 16, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Sounds like the "perch" some of us have heard it called was a layman's shortening of "purchase!" I love figuring out word origins.


I had never heard of "perch" before Margo mentioned it, but I thought the same thing. Now if we can only figure out what "purchase" means.





At least "water hook" makes sense once you know the meaning, but it's not like you are buying only part of the bit!





Myrna


----------



## Margo_C-T (Feb 16, 2011)

Well, I am 'winging' it a bit, not consulting a dictionary,but one of my college minors was English, and I'm reasonably sure that one meaning of 'purchase' is 'to have a grip, or hold, on something. That would fit, IMO, because the 'purchase' on a bit is where it is 'gripped by/attached to' the headstall, which is what keeps it on the horse's head. Make sense? Oh, and I wasn't really thinking about it, but feel I should have used the term 'purch', not 'perch', as a shorthand form of the name of the part.

Margo


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Feb 16, 2011)

Leia, you can get a 'purchase' on a rope too. That is, a solid purchase is a firm hold or grip on the rope. So I expect 'purchase' is a word meaning 'hold,grip, attachment.

My apologies to the OP for going off topic. This has been a fascinating thread so far





-- and for the record I managed to fit both the headstall and the overcheck onto the top part of the ring on my bit like the original one shown.

Looks like I was typing while you were posting Margo


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 16, 2011)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> Leia, you can get a 'purchase' on a rope too. That is, a solid purchase is a firm hold or grip on the rope. So I expect 'purchase' is a word meaning 'hold,grip, attachment.


Hey now, I knew what "purchase" meant!



Myrna's the one who wasn't sure. I think "grip" is one good meaning, but another is as in for your feet to find purchase, meaning traction or grip, which would fit in the sense that the purchase is the point of traction where leverage is made possible. When there is no bit purchase, there is no fixed point where the bit can pivot. The rings just spin on the headstall.

Leia

P.S.- I know where the "perch" thing came from- We all refer to that diagram on Estate Horse Supply's website of where the check goes on a Myler bit and he has that part labeled as the "perch." It'd be interesting to talk to Ken and see where he got the term!


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Feb 16, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Hey now, I knew what "purchase" meant!
> 
> 
> 
> Myrna's the one who wasn't sure.


Ooops, my mistake. I know I should double check things


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 16, 2011)

Margo_C-T said:


> Well, I am 'winging' it a bit, not consulting a dictionary,but one of my college minors was English, and I'm reasonably sure that one meaning of 'purchase' is 'to have a grip, or hold, on something. That would fit, IMO, because the 'purchase' on a bit is where it is 'gripped by/attached to' the headstall, which is what keeps it on the horse's head.


Cool! Thanks!


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Feb 16, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> The caveson, properly made and attached to the cheek pieces, is to keep the blinders/blinkers from gaping and allowing the horse to see behind them. See those loops that are on the inside in between the two outside keepers right under the blinkers? The caveson hanger strap goes through those loops to keep the blinkers close to the horse's face.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My Ozark bridle does not have loops where yours does. I looked again today. Ended up having to run the noseband through the headstall loops above the bit, as in my photo. I will check my Big Dee bridle tomorrow and see how it is constructed. I obviously haven't been using the caveson properly all these years; no wonder it seemed like a useless piece of leather to me. Makes sense to keep the blinders secure the way yours is attached.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 17, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> My Ozark bridle does not have loops where yours does. I looked again today. Ended up having to run the noseband through the headstall loops above the bit, as in my photo.


My Ozark nosebands hang on a separate strap which runs through the rosettes and under the crownpiece as my old hunt bridles did. I quickly got tired of the way those caveson hanger straps would sneak forward and crowd the horse's face (looking SO sloppy!) so I long ago used electrical tape "keepers" to secure them to the main cheekpieces. Done neatly, run only through the inside of the folded cheekpiece as on Myrna's bridle, it works wonderfully.

Leia


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 17, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I long ago used electrical tape "keepers" to secure them to the main cheekpieces. Done neatly, run only through the inside of the folded cheekpiece as on Myrna's bridle, it works wonderfully.


Good idea!


----------



## Knottymare (Feb 17, 2011)

In my riding horses, the caveson was used to help with bit placement and holding. It's funny because I have one horse that absolutely was not comfy without his caveson and yet my mare did not need it at all and so I always adjusted her's very loose.


----------



## RhineStone (Feb 17, 2011)

Knottymare said:


> In my riding horses, the caveson was used to help with bit placement and holding.


After understanding the purpose of the caveson on a driving bridle, it didn't make sense as to why English horses use one, but not Western. Granted, Western horses aren't usually having that much contact on their mouth, either. And the reasoning we were given for English horses to have one is to keep the horse's mouth shut so as not to evade the bit. Wouldn't Western horses try to evade the bit as well?





Personally, I think it has a whole lot more to do with tradition. To use it to hold the horse's mouth shut is to take a "shortcut" in training.

Myrna


----------



## Sue_C. (Feb 18, 2011)

> To use it to hold the horse's mouth shut is to take a "shortcut" in training.


Exactly.



I never tighten my nosebands, there is always room for the horse to move the mouth, to "savour the flavour" of the bit, if you will. IMO, you can never get a nice properly relaxed carriage with the horse's face in a clamp.


----------



## willowsedgebelgians (Feb 18, 2011)

I am unsure on a pleasure harness, but the origin on a draft harness for an overcheck is to keep the horse from getting the head down to the point of being dangerous. By this I mean that a horse that can get his head to a level of his chest and PULL can be completely uncontrollable. A person simply cannot pull hard enough on a large horses mouth to get him to stop, turn etc when he has his nose buried in his own chest and a mind to do what he wants. It is bad enough on a draft horse, but the worst time I ever had was with a 53" haflinger who was as dead broke as they come. I am sure the same type of rule applies to he pleasure harness.

That being said I don't see this as a true problem with a mini. Just not enough weight to get behind them as compared to leverage from the driver. It also doesn't apply to the stock type horses who are supposed to go with their heads low enough to eat grass anyway.

On response to the original post - we use mylers on our draft horses. We have to hook the overcheck to the loop created when the bridle hooks into the bit. Myler doesn't create enough room in even the big sizes to do both. I'd love to say that I had a pic to show you, but we use seperate overcheck bits in show and I don't tend to take pics of work days. Hook the bridle into the bit like normal, then hook the overcheck into the leather loop that you just made on the bridle. It keeps it off the caveson, and it does have some affect on the bit if the horse tries to drop his head drastically.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 18, 2011)

willowsedgebelgians said:


> I am unsure on a pleasure harness, but the origin on a draft harness for an overcheck is to keep the horse from getting the head down to the point of being dangerous. By this I mean that a horse that can get his head to a level of his chest and PULL can be completely uncontrollable.


For a draft horse I have to think there are different issues to be considered. A draft can EASILY pull a meadowbrook or other good-sized load with his head up and have no problems; his own weight renders pulling such a burden easy. The lighter and smaller the horse, the more important it is that they be able to get their head down in order to pull properly and the less likely it is they can wrest control from the driver by doing so. One reason for checks with light horse harness was to keep the horse from being able to drop his head far enough to hook his bit or reins on the shaft tips or pole end. That's another place where things are different with miniatures- the distances involved with them are so short that you very nearly CAN'T check an A mini up high enough to prevent such a thing without nearly turning him inside out!



IMO it's far better to let them have their head loose and use neck terrets to keep the reins safely up. Bits these days no longer have slobber bars to get hooked so the reins are the main danger.

Interesting perspective and thank you for contributing. It's always interesting to hear from folks of different backgrounds.





Leia


----------

