# Bute!!



## Firefall (Mar 15, 2006)

A bit concerned, I have a foundered mare, in foal for next month that is really having a rough time getting over this bout of it. It was triggered by my stupidity, adding another bale of hay that wasn't from my regular guy. I had my own in there too but I think this mare only ate from this 1 new bale.

Anyway, she's been tender and I've been talking to the vets office. "They" tell me, (I think its the techs) that giving this mare 1 whole Bute tab daily for 10 days will be fine and WON"t cause any ulcers. The lady said she has given this dose to her minis and they were just fine. She was discussing it with the others there in the office.

Anyone have experience with this big of a dose?




:

Need to add, this mare is taller and weights around 350-400lbs. She is heavy boned.


----------



## Hosscrazy (Mar 15, 2006)

My foundered mare was prescribed 1/4 tab, which is 250 mg., per day. She weighed around 225 lbs. One tab is 1 gram, which is 4 times this dosage amount. I also gave her rantadine (Zantac) daily and she did not develop ulcers.

Please call your vet back and ask her to call your local equine hospital for more information/dosage amount.

Best wishes,

Liz R.


----------



## Sandee (Mar 15, 2006)

Do a search on here for bute and you'll see the problems it can cause. Please, please do NOT give that big a dose!

My filly got 1 gram for 3 days (sort of by accident but that's another story) and ulcered so bad that we almost lost her.


----------



## chandab (Mar 15, 2006)

I went through this recently. My mare weighs around 350#, the vet prescribed 1/3 gram of bute twice a day til she's comfortable and suggested giving her Tagamet to reduce the chance of ulcers. (I did give her the Tagamet, until the horse ulcer meds arrived, I ordered U-gard paste and gave her 10ml 2x day for the first several days, then reduced the dose to 5ml 2x day - syringe is marked in 1 ml increments - one syringe is 30 ml). [Valley Vet has the powder U-gard, I can't remember where I ordered the U-gard paste; it was either Jeffers or Country Supply].


----------



## nassaunellie (Mar 15, 2006)

I've never had cause to use a pain reliever yet (lucky) and am far from an expert but I read the following from the book "Miniature Horses - A Veterinary Guide for Owners and Breeders":

"Careful dosing of phenylbutazone is critical in Miniature horses. Overdosing can result in ulceration of the stomach, ulceration of the colon, or kidney failure. A single dose of phenylbutazone must never exceed 0.5 grams. This dose is for adult Miniature horses weighing 200-250 pounds (90-115 kg) and must be decreased further in foals and smaller Minitatures. The maximum dose must not be used for more than three days in adults and more than one day in foals. The safest approach to the use of phenylbutazone is to use it only under the supervision of a veternarian."

So much information everywhere.



: It's hard to know what's the best thing to do. All we can do is try to find out all we can and use common sense, of course.

Wendy


----------



## Marty (Mar 15, 2006)

That is a WHOLE lot of bute for a mini. I use 1 tablet for a full grown big horse! Sounds utterly ridculous and very dangerous to me.

I would like to refer you to this article on bute written by Dr. Pam my good friend.

BUTE vs BANAMINE use in Minis

By "Dr. Pam" - Pam Ripperda D.V.M.

Bute is incredibly toxic to minis, and for some reason a lot of vets out there don't realize this. Not only is there a very narrow safety margin, i.e. you have to be very accurate at dosing them, but there are minis who will have problems even at the correct dose. It should be given at 1mg per pound body weight, which means most minis will get 150 mg to 250 mg--1/4 tablet or less. A lot of vets seem to think the average mini weighs 500 pounds and have owners give 1/2 tablet twice daily. ARGGGG!!!

Bute toxicity can cause severe gastric and intestinal ulceration, to the point of perforation and death (in as little as 5-7 days), kidney and liver damage, bone marrow suppression, and lowered blood protein levels.

That said, I have used bute on selected minis for laminities, but at a low dose and for short periods of time. For almost everything else I use Banamine (which can also cause problems if dosed too high or too long, but has a wider safety margin)

From Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook:

QUOTE

Adverse effects: Horses: oral and GI erosions and ulcers, hypoalbuminemia, diarrhea, anorexia, and renal (KIDNEY) effects.

QUOTE

Cautious use in both foals and ponies is recommended because of increased incidences of hypoproteinemia (LOW BLOOD PROTEIN LEVELS)and GI ulceration. Foals with a heavy parasite burden or that are undernourished may be more susceptible to development of adverse effects.

Phenylbutazone may cause decreased renal blood flow and sodium and water retention, and should be used cautiously in animals with preexisting renal disease or CHF (CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE).

QUOTE

The primary concerns with phenylbutazone therapy in humans include its bone marrow effects (agranulocytosis, aplastic anemia), renal and cardiovascular effects (fluid retention to acute renal failure), and GI effects (perforated ulcers). Other serious concerns with phenylbutazone include, hypersensitivity reactions, neurologic, dermatologic (SKIN), and hepatic toxicities.

While phenylbutazone is apparently a safer drug to use in horses and dogs than in people, serious adverse reactions can still occur. Toxic effects that have been reported in horses include oral and GI erosions and ulcers, hypoalbuminemia (LOW BLOOD PROTEIN LEVELS), diarrhea, anorexia (LOSS OF APPETITE), and renal effects (azotemia (HIGH LEVELS OF UREA/AMMONIA IN THE BLOOD)). Unlike humans, it does not appear that phenylbutazone causes much sodium and water retention in horses at usual doses, but edema has been reported. In dogs however, phenylbutazone may cause sodium and water retention, and diminished renal blood flow.

QUOTE

...acute overdosage with phenylbutazone include, a prompt respiratory or metabolic acidosis with compensatory hyperventilation, seizures, coma, and acute hypotensive crisis. In an acute overdose, symptoms of renal failure (oliguric, with proteinuria and hematuria), liver injury (hepatomegaly and jaundice), bone marrow depression, and ulceration (and perforation) of the GI tract may develop.

Get the picture ?


----------



## chandab (Mar 15, 2006)

Marty said:


> It should be given at 1mg per pound body weight, which means most minis will get 150 mg to 250 mg--1/4 tablet or less. A lot of vets seem to think the average mini weighs 500 pounds and have owners give 1/2 tablet twice daily. ARGGGG!!!


This is exactly why it's such a shame that the dog sized bute tablets were taken off the market (at least that's what I heard; as once Rimidyl (sp?) came out for doggy arthritis, very few used bute any more).

Maybe we can band together and get a manufacturer to come out with a mini size dose of bute whether in tablet or paste form. I know it isn't the best for minis, but there are some cases where bute works the best, as in the case of laminitis (I tried banamine, it did absolutely nothing for my mare's discomfort due to laminitis).


----------



## shminifancier (Mar 15, 2006)

I have never used the Bute tablets, When I had to give Bute to my Shetland I used the Bute in Paste form, So I could regulate the amount of dosage better. And then I only gave it to him just a few times as he was in so much pain he could not even stand! Because of the pain the both foundered front feet.. But i am sure that while tab is way too much med for a mini. I 1/4 of that would be fine if not even a smaller amount/.


----------



## Hosscrazy (Mar 15, 2006)

> This is exactly why it's such a shame that the dog sized bute tablets were taken off the market


Actually, they are not off the market, and that is what my vet prescribed for my mini - they were 100 mg. each tablet, so I was able to easily measure 2 1/2 tablets, which was 250 mg.

Liz R.


----------



## Dr. Pam (Mar 15, 2006)

Thanks Marty!! I like the way ""Miniature Horses - A Veterinary Guide for Owners and Breeders" worded it too. Sadly, there are a lot of equine veterinary professionals who refuse to take miniature horses seriously or make any effort to educate themselves. This is a real sore point with me--I run into this prejudice constantly. Good luck with your mare! Is she on a low carb/starch diet? There are a couple of feeds designed for foundered horses and IR minis/ponies available now.


----------



## Debby - LB (Mar 16, 2006)

Firefall you need to talk directly with your veterinarian not the techs. and if he/she gives you the same information the techs did please enlighten them!

Print out the information that you know to be true. If your vet does not give you the same advice his/her techs did... then you need to point it out immediatley along with the names of who told you so it can be corrected, the next person who calls them may not know this forum or know who to ask if it is right....most people will take the advice of the person on the other end of the phone when phoning a supposed professional, please follow through on letting this person know they are dead wrong.


----------



## Becky (Mar 16, 2006)

I have two recently foundered mares (on grass hay too!) and I've had good luck with giving them Banamine as well as changing their hay. They are on no grain and just get a diet balancer made by Progressive and alfalfa pellets . The worst one was also given soaked, rinsed beet pulp for awhile. The biggest problem I've had is that with the drought here, our clay soil is like concrete! That has been hard on their feet.


----------



## chandab (Mar 16, 2006)

Hosscrazy said:


> > This is exactly why it's such a shame that the dog sized bute tablets were taken off the market
> 
> 
> Actually, they are not off the market, and that is what my vet prescribed for my mini - they were 100 mg. each tablet, so I was able to easily measure 2 1/2 tablets, which was 250 mg.
> ...


I had three vets tell me they could no longer get it (I asked). Maybe it's just their supplier, I don't know.



Becky said:


> I have two recently foundered mares (on grass hay too!) and I've had good luck with giving them Banamine as well as changing their hay. They are on no grain and just get a diet balancer made by Progressive and alfalfa pellets . The worst one was also given soaked, rinsed beet pulp for awhile. The biggest problem I've had is that with the drought here, our clay soil is like concrete! That has been hard on their feet.



I'm having problems with hard frozen ground; same affect as concrete-like clay soil. My little girl is doing much better now. I have low NSC timothy pellets on the way to feed with her Progressive diet balancer pellets (she can't have alfalfa hay).


----------



## Vicky Texas (Mar 16, 2006)

Hi, I posted on this topic before. The effects of over dosing Bute. Please check the dosage, Bute

can cause ulcers in the stomach, intestines, and as others said other parts. But it can cause them

in the mouth as well. We had purchased a mare who was over dosed on bute, she spent a month

at Texas A&M fighting for her life. She had ulcers in her mouth, and stomach. The stomach healed

with no lasting problems. But the mouth did not. Our mare has NO upper lip, and as a result

her upper teeth rotated foward.

And when they brought her home, they put on as much green grass and hay as she wanted

which caused her to founder.

Here are a couple of pictures of her.

as a yearling, when we bought her.






Cashmere as a senior mare






I to would give something to prevent ulcers.

Vicky


----------



## Miniv (Mar 16, 2006)

Oh Vicky, that poor little girl!!! :new_shocked: I am SO GLAD you have her and she's getting the love and care she needs......

MA


----------



## Vicky Texas (Mar 16, 2006)

Dr. Pam said:


> Thanks Marty!! I like the way ""Miniature Horses - A Veterinary Guide for Owners and Breeders" worded it too. Sadly, there are a lot of equine veterinary professionals who refuse to take miniature horses seriously or make any effort to educate themselves. This is a real sore point with me--I run into this prejudice constantly. Good luck with your mare! Is she on a low carb/starch diet? There are a couple of feeds designed for foundered horses and IR minis/ponies available now.


Thanks Dr. Pam for the information for all of us, do you know what these feeds are?

Will they help keep weight on? I have one founder, Cashmere, the mare I posted her

pictures on page 2 of this post, who was over dosed on bute, then foundered. She is doing

fairly good with the founder, but we have a hard time keeping weight on, she won't eat

the Senior feed, she is very picky. Right now she is eating half Omelene 200 and safe choice,

which is her favorite, the safe choice. It is easier on her mouth, she tolerates the omelene.

any help

Vicky


----------



## chandab (Mar 16, 2006)

Vicky Texas said:


> Dr. Pam said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Marty!! I like the way ""Miniature Horses - A Veterinary Guide for Owners and Breeders" worded it too. Sadly, there are a lot of equine veterinary professionals who refuse to take miniature horses seriously or make any effort to educate themselves. This is a real sore point with me--I run into this prejudice constantly. Good luck with your mare! Is she on a low carb/starch diet? There are a couple of feeds designed for foundered horses and IR minis/ponies available now.
> ...


I'm not a vet or equine nutritionist, but I have been studying the feeds trying to find a safe one for my mare that foundered. I've come across a few, but not too many are available in my area. [i feed Progressive Nutrition grass balancer with grass hay - my hay isn't too great, so I've ordered in some timothy pellets].

You can test your hay for NSC levels (NSC = Non-structural carbohydrates = sugar+starch); Dairy One seems to be the lab of choice for the testing.

Triple Crown just came out with a Low Carb formula (I think it's a complete feed). Safe Choice is pretty good, if she likes it best you can probably drop the Omelene as it's high in carbs (adjust the amount of Safe Choice if necessary). Sterrett Bros has a low carb complete feed. Ontario Dehy has a low carb complete feed. Some senior feeds are low in carbs (some aren't as they have added molasses to entice picky seniors to eat). Mountain Sunrise Feed Co has some good grass hay pellets, and I think they have a low carb product. Beet pulp without molasses is a good choice. I'm sure there are more, but these are all that I can think of off the top of my head.


----------



## CLC Stables (Mar 16, 2006)

LMF and Performance Horse Nutrition make low card feeds too, I liked them.

Have fed Sterret brothers too know them real well, good guys.


----------



## Firefall (Mar 16, 2006)

Wow such good information.

Mare was up and seemed better today. I was glad to see that.

The vet Tech or who ever she was told me that even though her feet are sore she shouldn't be laying down very often! That I should make her get up. I have left her alone.

This person had some really far out advice for me. Never have talked to her before and I hope I never do again!

Thanks to you all that have added and pm'd me their experiences with their foundered minis.


----------



## chandab (Mar 16, 2006)

Firefall said:


> Wow such good information.
> 
> Mare was up and seemed better today. I was glad to see that.
> 
> ...



When my mare was at her worst, she laid down a lot, the vet wasn't overly concerned; and the farrier told me she'd get up for her feed and water, which she did (I did cater to her somewhat and would haul water to her, so she wouldn't have to walk as far, but she was standing when she ate and drank). She is much better now and moves around her pen more and more every day (she has free access to her heavily bedded stall and a 24x24 pen).

Hurry up spring.


----------

