# Voter ID Laws -- Your Thoughts? (POLL & DISCUSSION)



## Jill (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm curious to hear and see what others on LB have to say on this issue.

It's hard for me to fathom a reason why US Voters should not be required to produce valid ID in order to vote, but I know this is a very controversial and timely topic. Can't even get a library card without valid ID...

The claim I have heard frequently that it's racist to require ID just floors me. I don't get how that makes sense, but if someone thinks it does -- I'm listening






What is your opinion regarding Voter ID Laws?


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## rimmerpaints (Apr 5, 2012)

I think you should have an ID to vote.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 5, 2012)

I voted yes, could you please explain to me why it would be racist? Would it be because of picture ID? We are a country of many colors and religions, that makes us American, I'm sorry I thought we were past this or maybe I'm niave.


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## Jill (Apr 5, 2012)

Terry, I have no idea why it would be racist, but that's the arguement I've heard. I've heard that it is racist, but not any explaination. Perplexing! I do NOT think it's racist to require ID to vote. I'm not aware of any specific race having cornered the market on aquiring valid ID... I'm hoping someone can explain that point of view that I keep reading and hearing exists (minus any explainations of how it's so). I'm also interested to hear any reasons about why someone would feel ID shouldn't be required to vote.


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## Vertical Limit (Apr 5, 2012)

ABSOLUTELY!


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## andi (Apr 5, 2012)

I voted a very loud yes. 



I think this issue shines a lot of light on how things work, and how the "logic" behind something is so much more important than the final answer. If you think about it, it is minorities that have the most trouble producing a picture ID, due to a larger percentage of them being illegal citizen.. So the idea is, any law that affects one group more than another must be "against" that group, and therefore "racist". I think that logic obviously doesn't apply here, but it is used none the less to rile people up and get them to vote with their emotions not their heads. 



On the other hand though, I don’t like or agree with is the timing of this topic's growth and the focus it is receiving all of a sudden. No matter how legitimate the law, I don't like that it is in essence being used by the conservatives to remove what is seen as a large part of the current administrations support. I have trouble trusting lawmakers whose motivation to get important laws in place comes from their fear of losing an election.


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## ozymandias (Apr 5, 2012)

Absolutely YES !!! If you're an American citizen of voting age then you'll have no trouble getting a valid picture ID allowing you to vote. If you're not an American citizen you have no right to vote PERIOD end of story.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 5, 2012)

James, it's me, Terry, you know me and I love you to death buddy, but I'm an old feeble woman, please explain to me your second paragraph, sorry, but I'm not sure I understand what you are saying. Love Me! Oh and Trent always tells me to say Hi, when I respond to you, he loves you too!


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## ozymandias (Apr 5, 2012)

andi said:


> No matter how legitimate the law, I don't like that it is in essence being used by the conservatives to remove what is seen as a large part of the current administrations support.


Surely the important issue is that a large group of people who are currently voting ILLEGALLY are removed from the system whether it's being done now (for political reasons) or later for other reasons. It's about time our sovereignty as a nation is upheld. I do understand what your saying James but if the current admin is only in power because of illegal immigrants tipping the voting scale in their favor then they shouldn't be in power in the first place.


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## andi (Apr 5, 2012)

Ha ha, I knew that is you Terry, say Hi to litte trent, well probably not so little now.






Obama and Liberals are considered more lenient on illegal immigrants and therefore would have their vote, so by stopping them from voting, which I agree they shouldn’t be, would be taking away a large amount of his support at the polls. The increased attention on this topic recently makes me think that is the real motivation behind getting these laws in place. While I support the law, I think it shows a fault in what motivates the party or person who is suddenly considers it so important.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 5, 2012)

James, thanks for explaining, which is why ID should be required, plain and simple.


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## Jill (Apr 5, 2012)

There have been quite a few attempts at backdoor amnesty by the current administration and that may play an understandable role in renewed public interest -- I think that's a good thing and hard to criticize.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 5, 2012)

I registered to vote some 30 plus years ago, so my mind is a little foggy, but we registered at the DMV when we renewed our drivers license, so in my opinion if you could get a drivers license you can register and use that as an ID, NOT! I think you should have to prove citizenship, with either a birth certificate or citizenship, as my daughter in law was born in South Africa but is now a citizen. I don't think just any ID would be beneficial.


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## Jill (Apr 5, 2012)

As kind of a follow up (I may edit the original post), what are your thoughts on people being able to register to vote online, and/or vote online?

That isn't something I favor. I like that it requires a little bit of effort to get out and vote, and of course, would be very concerned about even more rampant voter fraud if registration (and / or actual voting) could be done online.


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## andi (Apr 5, 2012)

I don't disagree at all Jill that the "back door amnesty" has equally as questionable motives also. If the Rep. knows who is voting for Obama then he surely does and I wouldn't hesitate to guess that he would use the same tactic. LOL Again, it is very possibly BOTH parties are using their power to influence the vote, a despicable motive. For me, I think they are both right, in what laws they are passing, but for me, it is truly "the thought that counts", and on that side, neither is impressive. I guess we will see, if Obama stays in office, if his only motive was to increase his voters, he should drop the "back door" amnesty attempts when he is out of terms.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 5, 2012)

Jill, I agree, we went to vote yesterday here in MD. and the polling place was empty, which was unusal, as it is usally a gathering place for us in the farming community. I was actually surprised, no lines. Usually we see all our neighbors there that we havn't seen in a while and have good converstaions, so we try to feed before we go so we can spend some time with our friends. Not so yesterday, I was sort of disappointed at the turnout. As for online, I do think in the future most everything will be done online including voting, I hope I don't see it in my lifetime, but computers are taking over everything.


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## REO (Apr 5, 2012)

I think you should not only have a valid ID to vote, you should also be a citizen of the USA.

We couldn't go vote in any of their countries, why should they be allowed to vote in ours?


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## andi (Apr 5, 2012)

The voteing online does scare me! It just seems way to easy to tamper and question. I am all for making voting for an elected official as easy as possible, but not at the cost of accuracy or integrity of the system.


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## Miniv (Apr 5, 2012)

Our area allows for voting by mail, but I support that even if you sign up for that, you should show an official picture I.D.

My driver's license has to be renewed later this year and I've been informed I need to supply a copy of my birth certificate and/or passport. And that's for a RENEWAL. So why do people question the I.D. for voting? It doesn't take a brain surgeon to figure out why certain folks are against it. Sure, the "timing" is interesting, but is needs to done no matter when.


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## Jill (Apr 6, 2012)

Interesting poll results and comments. Despite headlines and over turning of voter ID laws, I've yet to talk to any individuals who do not support voter ID regulations.


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## Carriage (Apr 6, 2012)

Also an emphatic yes to both I.D. and Citizenship.

That takes care of one facet, but what about the rest of that particular, and very flawed, diamond?

How do you "Vote the bums out!" when the vote is not secure? I've asked this question for years and have yet to receive a logical answer, much less an answer. Let me save time by giving the answer, You don't.

However there is an exquisitely simple and cheap way to do so........... It's very old tech with a twist that has never been tried to my knowledge...............


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## ohmt (Apr 6, 2012)

From my research the only known voting fraud has cone from absentee ballots and not checking on recently released criminals (in my state). I'm not sure why people think there is all this crazy amount of voting fraud going on. Maybe i'm missing something though, that often happens This bill will not stop any of the voting fraud i've mentioned above, the real problem. I don't think these voting laws popping up all at the same time in several states are going to solve anything. You would only need an id to register, not to vote. What is the purpose of it then? How about a voting bill that actually solves some voting fraud problems. It also removes "vouching" where a person can vouch for you that you do live where you live. My mother vouched for me in 2008 when we first moved. Without that I would not have voted. I am not against proving citizenship to vote, I just think these bills are a waste of money. Not solving anything. I want a law that makes it so you need to show a social security card or birth certificate and an id AT VOTING TIME.


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## Jill (Apr 6, 2012)

Amanda, why some of us worry about voter fraud -- here are some reasons: ACORN, Acorn, & Acorn, Hundreds of dead voters (NC and elsewhere), recent revalations in upstate NY, the Indiana mess overwhich Butch Morgan resigned, ETC.

When I went to vote last time, I was asked for my ID. I think I've been asked each time in the past, but was specifically interested in the logistics this time so was waiting to see if I was asked. When I was, I said "I'm glad you asked me." ... It was even better than getting carded when I order a drink_ (FYI any people who are waitresses and waiters -- ask a 40-something woman for her ID if you want a better tip!)_

I would like ID to be required not just to register, but, as I was asked to do, at the polling facility as well. Can't think of a single good reason NOT to be required to produce valid ID.

AND, I do not mean to stir the pot, but I feel like the elephant in the room here are the "undocumented democrats". That is part of the problem, and like most catch phrases, has a basis in real life situations.


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## ohmt (Apr 6, 2012)

Yes, yes-i hear so much about undocumented democrats voting, but rarely the actual problem of absentee ballot fraud and the recently released criminals not being watched. Since this is a state to state issue, in mine (MN), those are the problems and this voting id law will do absolutely nothing to fix those. I want a voting id law that actually does something instead of spending millions on nothing.


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## ohmt (Apr 6, 2012)

Jill-great tip on asking for id for drinks




When I worked at a restaurant in high school, it was mandatory to get an id for all alcohol, no matter what age the person looked. Most women loved that



Men, not so much. Ok, off topic!


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## Jill (Apr 6, 2012)

I'm with you, Amanda, on the ID's for voting and oh, yes... I love it when I get carded. Strangly, it happens less and less often. Go figure


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## andi (Apr 6, 2012)

Now see, I didn't think that "undocumented democrats" are really the elephant in the room. That is exactly what I mentioned previously, illegal minorities who support liberals/democrats.

I think when you bring that to the forefront, you expose some peoples motivation to stop illegal immigrants from voting. In actuality it has less to do with them being illegal and more to do with who they are voting for. It cheapens the whole argument and is makes those against the law have a great "slogan" to throw in our faces. It should never be about whom they are voting for; it should be about them voting at all, democrat or conservative.

To put it in perspective, I have protested horses’ heights in the past. I did it because the horse was too tall, not because it beat me. Many of them I never even showed against. If I did it cause they beat me that would be WRONG. I would assume most people would agree. To take it a step further, I get the most frustrated when people "belittle" what I did, saying it was OK and supporting me, but doubt or question my motives. Honestly, your “support” means NOTHING to me if you don’t agree with why I did it and in this voting case, vise versa.


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## Jill (Apr 6, 2012)

We each make it through life deciding what is and is not meaningful to us and form our own perspectives. I don't have a problem with the term undocumented democrat and feel it is spot on. The Democrats are the party of expanding government entitlements, the leaders on the left side of the aisle are the the ones who are lax on immigration and who reject Voter ID regulations.

While I agree with the scenario you outline in your last paragraph, I don't find a pparallel between what you described and the relationship between the problems of voter fraud and undocumented democrats. I don't see the aalignment but obviously you feel it relates. That's fine and that's what makes us all our own people.

There's nothing wrong with slogans and a lot of times, the reason they catch on is that they hit the mark so closely. Just because an expression has become a popular political bullet doesn't mean it's not also a valid personal point of view..


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## andi (Apr 6, 2012)

The relation of the two stories is simple. It is admiral to speak up when someone cheats, but not if it is just a means to stop them from beating you. You speak up on the principal, not use it as a "back door" way to beat someone. That applies easily to both these situations, voter fraud is cheating, showing horses to tall is cheating. Being an incredible horse is not cheating, being a democrat is not cheating. The impure motives are removing a horse you couldn't beat ( the oversize incredible horse) , or removing someone who you couldnt get to vote "with you" ( undocumented Democrat).

*The idea is some want to get rid of the oversize horse, more because it is incredible, and the illegal citizen, more because "it" is a democrat. *

I agree that most slogans and even stereotypes are based somewhat in truth and can hit close to the mark. The idea of "Undocumented Democrats" has just as much truth, and manipultion of truth, as the comments saying you are a Racist if you against voter ID's.


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## andi (Apr 6, 2012)

I wanted to carlify,

*"The idea is some want to get rid of the oversize horse, more because it is incredible, and the illegal citizen, more because "it" is a democrat. "*

I used the word "more", but what I mean is those should not be the motive AT ALL. The moment you realize or admit that those are part of your motive you lose a substantial amount of credibility.


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## ozymandias (Apr 6, 2012)

Let go one step further than illegals voting. How about them being here ILLEGALLY and taking OUR jobs.

This is a quote...

According to Bear Stearns:


The illegal alien population of the U.S. is about *20 million - roughly the population of New York State.*

Between *4 and 6 million jobs* have shifted to the underground economy since 1990. These are not "jobs Americans won't do, but rather jobs Americans used to do.

On the revenue side, the United States may be foregoing* $35 billion a year* in income tax collections because of the number of jobs that are now off the books.

There are approximately 5 million illegal workers who are collecting wages on a cash basis and are avoiding both income and FICA taxes


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## Jill (Apr 6, 2012)

The job situation, from all aspects, is very upsetting, Oz...





Here's an article from this past week about the continued efforts to make the illegal legal:

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2012/04/dhs-to-grant-illegal-aliens-unlawful-presence-waivers/


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## andi (Apr 7, 2012)

For me, when I look at this whole immigration issue, my first question is always. WHY DON'T THEY BECOME LEGAL?? We are all so angry, that they are feeding off the system and voting illegaly. If this country is so great, and they are doing great over here, why dont they just become legal. So far, from what I have read, a LARGE percentage of Illegal Immigrants PAY TAXES. Tad ID numbers are issued to these people, their employers file W2's, but importantly, most do not file for a return like the rest of us for fear of being caught. They do pay in.

Don't get me wrong, I am for checking id's and deporting, but honestly, the first question should be, why is it so hard or these people to become legal?


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## ozymandias (Apr 7, 2012)

James,

when my family came here from Britain some 40 years ago it was very very difficult to get in. Each country has quotas as to how many folks the USA allows to get green cards each year. Out of those few (the year I came it was 20,000 total) people with direct relatives like parents of children were on the top of the list. After that for the few places left you needed to have one of the "jobs on the list" or they wouldn't look at you...highly skilled jobs like surgeons etc. Then you had to pass background and medical checks etc. There was one lady at the American Embassy in London the day we went for out interview who had been on the list for 20 years working her way up! In Britain it was called "The Brain Drain" because the top talent was leaving. There are a number of people allowed in without the educational requirements if they are in a refugee or similar situation. But I'll tell you one thing...there wasn't ANYONE who would have dreampt of coming here illegally without following the US's strict immigration laws. That's why so many legally admitted immigrants are so against the illegals who love to say they're not criminals - but they ARE, because while everyone else worldwide follows the rules, there are some who think those laws don't apply to them.

Take my cousin, he's the head chemical engineer for the Distillers company - a massive company (I believe they own Burger King too) . He travels all over the world for his company. He has 3 degrees from one of the worlds top universities and of course a Masters. He's an asset to his country and he'd cut off both legs to be able to live here but he can't because his job isn't important enough to be allowed to come. Yet someone with no skills at all thinks it's okay to break into our country like you break into someones home and come here and live - because they want to and to heck with the laws everyone else follows.

Okay off my soap box lol


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 7, 2012)

sorry but the term illegal democrates sounds prejudice to me, fraud is all across the board! My daughter in law came to this country from her birth land of South Africa, she is an English citizen, she was here on a visa to continue her education. She met my son, they got married and now have two children. She works here, pays taxes, pays for health care, car ins. and has a drivers license, but doesn't vote. I think it would take more then just an ID like a drivers license to prove citizenship of our great country. By the way we all need to and should come together and try to be nice when posting, please!


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## andi (Apr 7, 2012)

I think the information you just shared is sooo important to get out there Ozy. Being born here, I have never really "grasped" or fully appreciated the idea that living in America is "off limits" to someone. I figured the biggest obstacle should be getting here and getting "established", finding a home or job, when you don't know anybody. I don't disagree at all with your thoughts and frustrations. If the laws are in place they should be enforced, and those who are following them and watching others abuse them should be infuriated. 

I think where it gets very complicated is trying to decide if our "human rights" are something we are born with and "entitled" to or something we can have given or taken away by the country we live in by their laws. In a perfect world I think everyone should be given the option of living in the country of their choice, but how do you keep a sustainable economy with such an unstable workforce. 

One thing I read researching was that Illegal Immigrants are not a "drain" on the American economy as a whole. By the numbers, they contribute more than they take. BUT, and this is a big BUT, they contribute to the Federal Gov and take from the State Level. So for the people making the laws about illegals, the federal government, they WANT them in the country. For example, an illegal may pay $10 in taxed and only use $5 in services. But those $10 dollars are payed to the federal government, and they use $5 of local government funded services. This could be a MAJOR motivator for why "big government" seems to be ok with the idea of "allowing" illegal citizens. 

Hmm, I wonder what RP's solution is?


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## andi (Apr 7, 2012)




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## ozymandias (Apr 7, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> By the way we all need to and should come together and try to be nice when posting, please!


I think I missed something...who's not being nice?


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## ozymandias (Apr 7, 2012)

andi said:


> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8y3zEP75kFM


THANK YOU James! I started posting on this thread with the 'tude that I wasn't going to be voting this year....I think I've changed mt mind



I didn't realize just how aligned RP's ideals are with my own.

He has some brilliant suggestions in that clip. I'd go one step further and make sure that the allotted numbers of immigrants allowed in each year can change according to our economic status at the time. For instance it's easier to integrate 100,000 new people (plus the 2.9 million graduating High Schooler's each year) into the economy during years of economic growth than it is during a recession or depression.


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## Jill (Apr 7, 2012)

It looks like a couple people voted NO to "Do You Think US Voters Should Be Required To Present Valid ID In Order To Vote?" I'm interested to know the why behind that feeling, if they would like to share.


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## Margo_C-T (Apr 7, 2012)

I have read this entire thread with interest. Ozmandias, I had to comment because I so TOTALLY agree with your post. It is PATENTLY UNFAIR to those who have followed the rules for so many to 'get by' and 'get by', and 'get by', when they acted in TOTAL DISREGARD for those rules. If there were no OTHER reason to STOP LETTING illegal immigrants(and I don't care WHERE they are from)get away with sneaking into,and staying, in our sovereign country, that one alone should be enough!

It's SOOOO 'in' to go on and on about 'rights'; but how often do we hear the same level of concern about 'responsibilities'?

I wholeheartedly believe in requiring verifiable ID in order to vote, BTW.Oh, and I agree w/ ozmandias--having read every post in this thread, I think it has been overall civil and an excellent exercise of frank discussion; I've seen no one 'not being nice'.

Margo, who remembers a simpler, but believe me,a MUCH better country/world.


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## ozymandias (Apr 7, 2012)

Thanks for the kind words Margo






I think for anyone who doesn't see it (and I know you do Margo) - I see it this way simplified...

If Nike were releasing a limited edition sports shoe and only 300 were made...how would those waiting outside in line for the release, being polite, causing no trouble, sitting in the rain, just patiently waiting on their lawn chairs for an entire week before hand, feel if on the morning the store opened 1 or 2 hundred people cut in front just because they felt they were more entitled to the shoes and didn't feel like waiting like everyone else did! That's not how a civilized person behaves in a society that they care about. We all have to abide by the same unwritten rules of behavior to make life better for all. If those people cut in line after you'd waited all week...would you think it's okay if the store manager said "well, they're here now - let them have the shoes!" Sorry to all of you who did it the right way - sorry we've "sold out" No way!!!


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## Jill (Apr 7, 2012)

^ Now that's a great analogy ^


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## Miniv (Apr 7, 2012)

EXCELLENT analogy!


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## bevann (Apr 7, 2012)

I voted Yes and want to give my 2 cents on the illegal immigration issues.In my small DE town we have a chicken processing plant and a clam processing plant.we have TONS of illegal immigrants mostly grom Guatamala.They have learned how to work the system and are now receiving food stamps and other benefits from our state government.BUT THEY WILL WORK at anything you ask them to do.During the summer when we are putting up hay they are willing to work.If I go to certain areas of our town and countryside and ask for workers(born here) I get the reply that it is too hot for them to work in the sun.(they get checks from the state and food stamps and Medicaid)Why work?We have 3 or 4 generations of the same family where no one in the family of 6-8 children has ever been employed.Why work when you get everything you need given to you.Many of the illegals that are here have fake papers.1 man told me if he goes home for a visit he can come back to his wife and daughter here, but a new set of papers will cost him $5000 so he can cross the border.I really don't like paying taxes to support people who contribute nothing and have more babies for me to support. I LOVE THE ANALOGY!!!!


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## vickie gee (Apr 7, 2012)

Of course voters should have to produce an ID. Of course there is a combination of groups of people that will declare it is racist. They have an agenda to get their man re-elected. They want to declare that us birthers are racist in wanting to see a REAL birth certificate (as in a NOT FAKE) one on the POTUS. I can barely stand to watch Bill OReily any more but I have accidentally caught him having guests who are fools trying to explain why an ID is racist. America is starting to see an upstart of the media covering big stories that are hate crimes and racially motivated crimes. The writing was already on the wall. If we go into civil unrest then martial law can be declared and guess what? NO ELECTION. Yep, some of what is headlining appears to be racially motivated crimes. And yes, hate crimes do exist but they are not limited to any specific class of people committing them and the number of classes they are committed against are ever increasing. But are there conspiracy theories? You betcha. Was Chelsey Clinton's life threatened? Not in anyway defending the Clintons, but google it and decide for yourself. In addition to getting the votes of the illegals and blocking the votes of the military who are predominantly conservative votes the plan is in place to get the vote of the working class tax paying blacks who previously voted for him (bHo) but have steered away from him to NOW come back and vote for him because of what "appears" to racism and oppression going on in America. No, I am not saying racism, discrimination, and prejudice does not exist. It exists just as reverse discrimination exists. What I am saying is that plain and simply the people that do not want voters to produce an ID have a reason for their claim. Certainly it IS NOT discrimination but they are so desperate and dishonest that is their claim.


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## ohmt (Apr 7, 2012)

I'm sorry, but anyone that still believes they haven't seen the REAL birth certificate of the president needs to start getting their news from reliable sources. Good grief people, how paranoid can you get? That might not be "nice", but COME ON.


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## vickie gee (Apr 7, 2012)

No need to be sorry, admittingly I am no doubt just as "paranoid" as Orley Taits and Sheriff Joe and will just leave it at that.



I do not think you are "not nice" and we each can believe what we believe. No hard feelings.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 7, 2012)

PLease don't misunderstand me, I mean no ill intent, I just feel that one party should not be singled out as having undocumented voters. I think we all are against illegal voting and fraud. I do feel it is unjustified to say "undocumented democrates" as fraud goes all the way from right to left.


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## ohmt (Apr 7, 2012)

I am glad you don't take it personally, Vickie, as I sincerely don't mean it that way. My boyfriend and I are on completely opposite ends of the political spectrum, but are best friends otherwise. That being said, I really wish people would get off the "Obama is an illegal citizen with a fake birth certificate and is a muslim out to take down the country" kick and focus on actual problems. Our media has people so uninformed and backwards, it's sad and scary.


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## tagalong (Apr 7, 2012)

> There have been quite a few attempts at backdoor amnesty by the current administration and that may play an understandable role in renewed public interest -- I think that's a good thing and hard to criticize.


As someone who is here LEGALLY it annoys me to no end that President Obama AND President Bush both were looking into amnesty for illegals. It has happened on both sides. I was plenty annoyed at GWB for seeming to think it was okay to kick all of us (who have jumped through all the flaming hoops and done everything by the book as required) in the teeth and talk about amnesty for illegals - and then when Obama came along and made suggestions along the same lines, I was beyond POed. _Seriously?_ _Really??!!_ Why did I bother doing all this the long hard way when I could have just been illegal and been granted amnesty. Much easier. Much, much less stress. I cannot tell you how stressful it is. Much less paperwork and $$$$. Stupid me.

Not that I would ever do that. Why? Because it is ILLEGAL.

This topic always makes me mad. Arrrrgh. Yeah - grant amnesty to illegals. Show all of us who have worked so hard and followed the law and done everything that has been asked of us just how much we matter - like, not at all. Thanks ever so much.

As far as the whole birther thing goes... the birth certificate WAS real. The state of Hawaii confirmed it many times over - and it matched other Hawaii birth certificates. Hawaii must be lying, I guess. The long form was also shown early on in the birther "scandal" (that wasn't) back during the 2008 election (I had it saved on my old computer) and again recently. It always makes me sigh when this topic comes again as birthers must think McCain and Palin were STUPID - if there was any doubt whatsoever they would have gone after it. Geez, how stupid they were!! They weren't stupid - they were smart. They knew a manufactured scandal when they saw one. Ditto for whoever the current GOP candidate will be. Orly Taitz and Donald Trump (who will say anything to get his name in the news - as will Arpaio these days) must be smarter than all those fools. I note that Trump's "secret investigators" that he had "hired" have never given their real report. Go figure.

I suppose that the birth notice in the Honolulu paper waaay back when was strategically done all those years ago just in case that kid somehow managed to become President. And no, it was not photoshopped or CGIed - it was found on microfiche archives that were buried deep and can still be seen that way. But whatever... I just wish people would focus on real issues instead of made up conspiracies that go nowhere. We will have to agree to disagree, *vickie gee*. And you have no reason to be sorry, *ohmt*. None at all.

Anyway...

*YES*, one should show ID proving you are a citizen when voting - to prove you are the name on the voting list. I do not know how voting works here - is there not a voting list that you must be matched up against the way it happens in Canada? We always had to show ID that proved we were who we said we were - and that ID had to match the name on the voters' list as well.

Strangely enough, about a month after I first came here, I got a big creamy envelope with no return address in the mail full of brochures about how to get counterfeit green cards etc. Now - _the only people who knew my address at that point were my US employer and Immigration_. And I know my boss did not send me that stuff. So someone who could see the Immigration files... yikes...

I trashed that envelope as fast as I could. No thank you.

Now I wish I had hung onto it and maybe turned it over to Someone. Not sure who... and there was no way to figure out where it came from. The contacts were all hotmail or gmail or yahoo email addresses.

And to show you how odd things can get, I have also had 2 jury summonses. I had to explain to them that as much as I would like to do jury duty (it would be interesting!) I had to be excused. They asked what my excuse was and I told them I was not a citizen. They had to look it up. Ooops. That makes me think that maybe somehow I am on a voters list as well... _how would that happen??_


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## Jill (Apr 8, 2012)

Vickie, I too have been very fascinated by the investigation that Sheriff Joe has been doing, and then also about the (resulting?) investigation OF Sheriff Joe. I'm not convinced we've seen the truth yet. If nothing else, it has made for interesting reading, thinking and viewing.


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## brasstackminis (Apr 8, 2012)

I say that ID's should be required...period! That being said I think that the process of becoming a legal citizen is flawed. I have a friend who joined the military to become a citizen. She is from Jamaica. Her father is a legal citizen...came over for some sort of running in the Olympics?? She could have become a citizen just because of that. Not sure why she joined the USAF (where I met her) to become a citizen. Anyways, she is now trying to get her mother over here legally. She has been working on the paperwork for 7 years!!! WHY? I am not suggesting that we just let anyone and everyone over with no background checking etc. But that is just too long and not right. I think if they made it easier...for those who are willing to go through the hoops, there would be less illegals. It should not be exceedingly cost prohibitive either! If those who were really coming over to work were allowed to do it legally in a timely manner, then they would have their id's and pay into the tax system. I also have a hard time with the minimum wage...not sure if it really helps. I know that there are farmers that have been caught using illeagal workers and have been forced to only hire legal citizens and pay min wage. They are now broke, there is produce on the ground rotting, because those who can be hired will not work as hard for as little. THEY QUIT!!! The illegals are taking jobs...but a lot of those jobs are not wanted by the US citizens. Then again...who can live on min wage??? Even full time hours? It is a broken system with lots of facets and no simple answers...I guess that is why it is controversial!


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## andi (Apr 8, 2012)

Hey Brasstack

I think you hit on some keypoints and I think it is important to look at the other sides reasoning and be brave enough to acknowledge neither side is 100% wrong or right.

I think this topic has proven exactly the point MY analogy was very clearly making. We have a simple topic that is focused one one singular law that most of us agree on. But is SPOILED by many other much more "questionable" opinions and motives that have nothing to do with first. If this entire topic was posted before I voted I would have shaken my head and not even wanted to be so involved in the vote, whether I agreed or not with the original question.


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## Jill (Apr 8, 2012)

Thanks for sharing your insights, Brass. There are not any easy answers to the immigration problem. Maybe one thing it could do, though, is serve as a reminder to all of us how lucky we are. You don't hear about large numbers of Americans immigrating to any other nations.


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## andi (Apr 8, 2012)

I think there is a very very easy answer. CUT OFF 100% any and all benefits if you are not a legal citizen, penalize and fine severely any one found to be "hiring" and paying any illegal immigrants, and very important, make it extremely exponentially "easier" to become legal. 

By doing so take away any "motivation" to remain Illegal and make the alternative much more attainable. Very very simple.

My advice to everyone, if you are going to pretend to be wanting an open honest discussion, don't ignore the very opinions you asked for on the bases that we should just all focus on how superior we are to the other countries. One thing has no effect on the other. It is just a random statement to make you think that you and the person are agreeing, when in reality, you are being ignored and belittled. This is exactly how sleazy politicians get control. "Great points ... I hear you ... I disagree with 90% of what you said, but don’t want to lose your vote, so let’s just focus on how awesome we are, we can all agree on that, right?” Smile Wave Smile


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## tagalong (Apr 8, 2012)

> You don't hear about large numbers of Americans immigrating to any other nations.


Many do, though. To Europe, Canada, Down Under. The neighbours down the road sold their horse property, packed up and moved to Ontario. Canada, not California.

_The main focus is on who is trying to get in illegally as opposed to who is legal - or leaving... _


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## Jill (Apr 8, 2012)

Tag, people are not leaving the USA in droves





This has been interesting to follow, and I'm not surprised the vast majority of us do think ID should be required to vote


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## tagalong (Apr 8, 2012)

Where did I ever say they did, *Jill *? I know you like to find fault with almost everything I say in these threads at times but I was just making an observation. More folks leave than it seems you would likely expect. I meet them all the time on immigration forums asking the same questions others ask about visas, visa quotas, citizenship, the ability to own property if one is not a citizen of said country etc. etc.

Could someone please answer my question about voting procedures here? Do you need to show ID and get checked off a list or what?


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## Jill (Apr 8, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Could someone please answer my question about voting procedures here? Do you need to show ID and get checked off a list or what?


Varies by the state. Here's a map: http://www.ncsl.org/legislatures-elections/elections/voter-id.aspx


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## ozymandias (Apr 8, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Could someone please answer my question about voting procedures here? Do you need to show ID and get checked off a list or what?


It's different in different places Tag. In Oregon we have vote by mail. Once you're registered as a voter you're sent your ballot by mail, fill it in, sign it and mail it back or drop it off at a dropbox. It's very flawed because there's no guarantee that the person it's mailed to actually receives it or is the one filling it in.


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## muffntuf (Apr 8, 2012)

I think it should be required. I think it would cut out a lot of stuff. I know the ACLU is saying it would hinder a lot of people from voting - handicapped, homeless in shelters, etc. etc. How it could be racist, I am not sure, that seems a little far fetched for me. But there is an adult population that do not have driver's licenses, if they work they should have a photo ID issued from the state they live in, but?????


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## brasstackminis (Apr 8, 2012)

I recently became friends with a 47 year old woman who had a shaded past. She recently changed her ways and was trying to get a drivers license again. She threw hers away when she was 19...lived on the streets and didn't need it. Anyways, after living through and loosing everything to Hurricane Katrina, then Ike, she was having a very hard time getting any kind of ID. All of her IDs and important paperwork were lost to one of the two hurricanes. You have to have a Social Security card and a copy of your Birth Certificate or a pass port to get a DL. Well turns out if you need a copy of a SS card, you need an ID or Drivers Licence, copy of your birth certificate and/or a passport. Around and around we go! After lots of education on how to use a computer, find information and apply for all of the stuff, she finally has an ID card. She is a legal citizen!!! If you are persistant and call the DPS or DMV enough times, you may get ahold of someone who can answer more than basic questions and help the odd problem holder. So there is a population who do not have ID's...it is true. Question is, do they even want to vote? If they did, they would get an ID IF they knew how...

There is a large group who don't know how a debit card works! I was shocked that this friend was not the only one that drove to the bank to get money to go to WalMart because they simply did not know that the debit card could be used at the store. Shocking but true. They have GEDs but did not graduate HS...but I do not remember a debit card class there...so where do you get this information? I remember a time when a young lady approached me at the gas station looking for $5 for gas to get to a job interview. She was a mess. I gave her the money but remember thinking that if what she said was true (who knows really) she was in quite the pickle! She needed money to get the clothes to get the job...but she needed the job to get the money to buy the interview clothes! It is easy to say..."get a job" or "get an ID" but some people do not have the information or means to do this. I am all for having an ID to vote...but if we are worried about those that want to vote and have no ID, then educate them! Send out cards in the mail to "residents" to inform them of the local contact information in order to get the IDs they need. It is kind of like telling someone who wants to spell a word right to go "look it up in the dictionary!" If I knew how to spell it, I wouldn't be looking it up! It is amazing to realize how many just don't know things that many of us take forgrated as "common knowledge." Just saying...


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## Jill (Apr 9, 2012)

Brass, you really make some great points. I used to volunteer at an Adult Learning Center and I remember how shocked I was at the number of women who work jobs, raise a family and run a house that didn't understand basic math. I don't even mean fractions, but addition and subtraction. It was just a big eye opener for me... It's been a long time since I was doing that work, and it's easy to forget. There are for sure a wide range of abilities to be found in every day, functioning adults.


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## ozymandias (Apr 9, 2012)

Not to sound elitist brasstack, because that certainly isn't how this comment is intended, but if they don't know life's basics like what a debit card is then perhaps they shouldn't be voting at the moment anyhow. Voting is something a little more involved than putting down an "x" in a box. Half the mess we're in is because people don't put any more thought into voting than "well my parents voted this way". I know that's going to come across as harsh and that's not my intention we all as citizens, have the right to vote but IMO it's more important than just doing it. Sometimes, getting back on your feet, is more of a priority and education as a voter takes commitment.

edited to add - it would be great if people not only helped educate on how to vote but could help educate on the candidates and issues too.


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## Jill (Apr 9, 2012)

I have to say I agree with Miniwhinny / Oz, but it is good to be reminded about the wide range of abilities. A lot of people are (willfully or otherwise) uninformed yet armed with the right to vote. I know I got flamed years ago for saying what I'm about to say, but what the heck. I still feel this way! I wish that only people who could demonstrate a basic level of intelligence and knowledge of political structure were able to vote. Like a "you must be at least this tall to ride this ride" type of qualification outside the voter booth.


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## Jill (Apr 9, 2012)

This article and accompanying video tie right in with our Voter Fraud ponderings.

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2012/04/08/DC-Polling-Place-Holder-Ballot?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+BigGovernment+%28Big+Government%29


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## targetsmom (Apr 11, 2012)

It has been a law in CT for several elections now, and not an issue that I am aware of. You do not need a drivers license, as we have relatives who are blind ( so they don't drive!) but can get an alternate ID card that will work. They are well-versed in the issues - probably more so than I am!


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## Jill (Apr 11, 2012)

Does anyone know if all DMV's (Department of Motor Vehicles) offer a photo ID for non-drivers? In VA, it does, but I don't know if all DMV's offer this official form of ID for people who do not drive.


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## REO (Apr 11, 2012)

That's where I got my ID in OK. (DMV)


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 11, 2012)

The state of Maryland also offers photo ID at the DMV for non-drivers.


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## Jill (Apr 11, 2012)

Thanks, Robin and Terry


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## Vertical Limit (Apr 12, 2012)

I think Illinois offers it too Jill.....I can remember my mother getting one.


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## Jill (Apr 12, 2012)

Thanks, Carol


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## Jill (May 15, 2012)

I wanted to share some of the latest... New O’Keefe video released today exposes non-citizens on voter rolls in NC:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ptSrcNvJzBQ


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## lil hoofbeats (May 15, 2012)

> Surely the important issue is that a large group of people who are currently voting ILLEGALLY are removed from the system whether it's being done now (for political reasons) or later for other reasons. It's about time our sovereignty as a nation is upheld. I do understand what your saying James but if the current admin is only in power because of illegal immigrants tipping the voting scale in their favor then they shouldn't be in power in the first place.


Like..uh.....heck yea!!!!! they still ask me for ID when i order tequila, and thats a heck of lot less important that voting!!!!! If you are too ashamed to show an ID at the polls, stay home!

Voting is extremely important, and should be treated as such!


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## Jill (May 16, 2012)

Mary Lou, it seems like you're a good student of Media Matters, but I'm as likely to refer to their website in the hopes of being informed as I am to tune into MSNBC for the evening news. Sorry, my friend, I love you, but I know enough about Media Matters to avoid it.


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## Debby - LB (May 19, 2012)

andi said:


> I voted a very loud yes.
> 
> I think this issue shines a lot of light on how things work, and how the "logic" behind something is so much more important than the final answer. If you think about it, it is minorities that have the most trouble producing a picture ID, due to a larger percentage of them being illegal citizen.. So the idea is, any law that affects one group more than another must be "against" that group, and therefore "racist". I think that logic obviously doesn't apply here, but it is used none the less to rile people up and get them to vote with their emotions not their heads.
> 
> On the other hand though,_ I don’t like or agree with is the timing_ of this topic's growth and the focus it is receiving all of a sudden. No matter how legitimate the law, I don't like that it is in essence being used by the conservatives to remove what is seen as a large part of the current administrations support. *I have trouble trusting lawmakers whose motivation to get important laws in place comes from their fear of losing an election*.


Very well said


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## Debby - LB (May 19, 2012)

During the last Presidential election I saw several very-very old people who said they had never voted before being helped to the polls, which was very nice I love to see people at the polls... what bothered me about it was them asking "who am I voting for?" and the younger people telling them what to do. In Ga, it had been well advertised that people were going door to door in the poor neighborhoods helping to sign up voters. I think it's a shame that to vote for our countries leaders you need to be no more qualified than to vote on american idol.


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## Jill (Jun 12, 2012)

I wanted to update this thread with some news out of Florida.

"Florida’s secretary of state has asked a federal judge to force President Barack Obama’s administration to comply with federal voting laws."

http://dailycaller.com/2012/06/11/florida-sues-obamas-agency-to-stop-voter-fraud/

"The Justice Department set the stage Monday to sue Florida over its effort to purge the voter rolls of non-U.S. citizens..."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/06/11/florida-sues-dhs-over-access-to-voter-citizenship-records/


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## Flying minis (Jun 12, 2012)

Ok, so I don't think there's any reason to ask for ID at voting time, because it doesn't fix or prevent ANY issues.

The only thing presenting an ID does is confirms your name to the name in the voter rolls - but there's no comparative picture to show that it's you, so it doesn't discourage someone getting a false ID (they're everywhere by the way) and going in to vote as another person. It doesn't discourage someone who is not a citizen from voting, because they can also get ID's, whether by legal or illegal means. To tell the truth, the only ones it actually hurts are transgender citizens, who are generally denied ability to vote because their appearance doesn't match their ID's (I won't go on from there, I'm sure it's a touchy subject for some).

Now, to address the REAL issues. . . I think most Americans agree that you must be a citizen to vote. That said, the real solution is to ensure voter registration is correct, and that only citizens register, and to periodically require re-registration (similar to driver's licenses). . . In other words, fix the whole system, not just a symptom or perceived specific incident. If you had to show proof of citizenship when you register to vote (and maybe you do, I registered a long time ago and truly don't remember) AND had to periodically re-register, AND the registration had to be periodically reviewed for accuracy and dead / non-current registrations removed, THEN we would actually have a chance of maintaining the principals that we all seem to agree to. . . HOWEVER, comprehensive and holistic answers are more difficult and expensive than shot-in-the-dark at what looks like it could be a problem solutions, and are a harder "sell" to the populace, so I really don't look to see any changes in the near future. If the whole system were chnaged however, then I would have no objection to VERIFIED electronic voting - but I think that it would be almost impossible to do over the entire country. I work for a highly regulated industry, and I know what kind of hoops we have to go through to ensure verified, validated electronic signatures, and would expect that voting would be no less secure than our systems - and I don't think you could institute an e-compliance, 21 CFR PArt 11 compliance computerized system for e-signatures across the entire country (we have done it for a company of 100,000 people globally, and it is a nightmare to implement and maintain).


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## Jill (Jun 12, 2012)

I think the harder you make it to do something wrong (ie voting if you are not eligible to do so), the less often it will happen. Hard for me to spot a downside when it comes to requiring valid ID to vote.


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 12, 2012)

Slightly off topic, but it saddens me to think of all the people I know that don't take advantage of their right to vote! I'm a senior citizen and know many that have never voted in their life, also I've worked with many. Some young people simply don't care who runs this country.


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## Jill (Jun 12, 2012)

I hear you!!! I was actually thinking almost the same thing earlier today regarding some of my in-laws... I don't miss a chance to vote, not since 1992. Local, State, National -- I don't miss it!

Earlier I was also thinking about those "man on the street" interviews after an election. Where people do not know who the VP is, or don't understand real basic facts about how our government functions. It's the kind of thing that makes me laugh at first, and then just sort of stew over later. These same people who might think Margaret Thatcher is our VP could probably name all the finalists on American Idol or something else equally "important".


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 12, 2012)

You know Jill, you and I will probably never agree on everything, but do agree on somethings, and we both love our equines. I'm not the smartest cookie in the box, but so enjoy reading the back porch and learning everyone else opinions on important matters. We do agree on this, it's such a shame that people born in this country could care less. I don't know if it is lack of education or simply that they only care about their day to day lives. I havn't figured it out. I know people with a college education, something I don't have, that havn't even registered! I just don't understand. I'm Cherokee, somthing I never told anyone about when I was younger, because of prejudice, my people didn't always have the right to vote. It is not only an American right it is a great previlege that should not be taken so lightly by so many.


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## Jill (Jun 12, 2012)

I agree with you 100% on this, Terry! ... and we probably have more in common than not when you get down to things that matter most


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## MountainWoman (Jun 12, 2012)

I voted yes about having I.D. to vote. I've been voting by absentee ballot and I have to have my ballot signature notarized and obviously present i.d. when I sign my ballot for the notary. It's no big deal because it's a privilege to vote. I was listening to liberal talk radio the other day on Sirrius and they were discussing this issue of requiring id to vote and the gist of the conversation was that having to have i.d. is prejudicial because people move frequently and in places like Florida with high foreclosure rates, people just didn't have valid addresses on their i.d. and then when the address doesn't match to the polling place, they are prohibited from voting and that's prejudicial. Don't shoot the messenger, just repeating what they were saying.


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## Tab (Jun 20, 2012)

It might be an inconvenience for the workers and it might take a little extra time, but it is WELL worth it. All of it, IMO. I will gladly present my photo ID!


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## Jill (Jun 21, 2012)

Tab said:


> It might be an inconvenience for the workers and it might take a little extra time, but it is WELL worth it. All of it, IMO. I will gladly present my photo ID!


Absolutely


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## MajorClementine (Jun 23, 2012)

With the barcode system you don't even have to show it to someone. Just scan it. Fake IDs don't validate when the barcode is scanned. If that's racist then I guess the census is racist too...

Then again, so many people don't vote already. This would just be another excuse not to. However, I still say Yes to ID.


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## HGFarm (Jun 26, 2012)

Race has nothing to do with showing ID to vote! The govt got angry because dead people are 'voting' and when states were going to clean up their voters list, they were told NOT to!


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## Jill (Jun 26, 2012)

Some of the political issues today just boggle my mind. I swear, it feels like some key people do not really play for the home team


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