# Why not to use bute in minis



## RJRMINIS

I was telling someone about not using bute in miniatures......I came here to do a search to explain it better, but cannot find the topics that have discussed this in the past....can you all please tell me the reasons again so I can explain it better.

Thanks.


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## attwoode

Banamine is recommended by my vet because it has properties that diminish colon spasms during colic, can remove toxins, and relieve pain. She says bute is cheaper so people tend to use this more often. Bute can causes ulcers in miniatures. Banamine can also cause ulcers but usually only after prolonged treament or overdose.


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## Hosscrazy

The issue is not that bute should not be used in miniature horses. The issue is that bute needs to be *properly dosed *according to weight. My personal preference for my minis is banamine, but there are some cases where bute can provide pain relief better than banamine (i.e. laminitis/founder).

Liz R.

Edit to add: the bute that my vet prescribed came in 100 mg. tabs, so it was easy to dose correctly.


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## JourneysEnd

Doesn't bute stay in the system longer ? I think that one of the reasons it's used in laminitis cases.

I know you don't have to give as often as other drugs (aspirin, etc)

When I use bute, I prefer the tablets as they're easier to dose without overdosing than the paste is.


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## Dr. Pam

This is somehing I wrote about 2 years ago after yet another forum friend lost a mini due to the instructions her vet gave her (mini hurt his leg, vet had them dose 1/2 gram tablet twice a day for a weanling):

BUTE vs BANAMINE use in Minis

By "Dr. Pam" - Pam Ripperda D.V.M.

Bute is incredibly toxic to minis, and for some reason a lot of vets out there don't realize this. Not only is there a very narrow safety margin, i.e. you have to be very accurate at dosing them, but there are minis who will have problems even at the correct dose. It should be given at 1mg per pound body weight, which means most minis will get 150 mg to 250 mg--1/4 tablet or less. A lot of vets seem to think the average mini weighs 500 pounds and have owners give 1/2 tablet twice daily. ARGGGG!!!

Bute toxicity can cause severe gastric and intestinal ulceration, to the point of perforation and death (in as little as 5-7 days), kidney and liver damage, bone marrow suppression, and lowered blood protein levels.

That said, I have used bute on selected minis for laminities, but at a low dose and for short periods of time. For almost everything else I use Banamine (which can also cause problems if dosed too high or too long, but has a wider safety margin)

From Plumb's Veterinary Drug Handbook:

QUOTE

Adverse effects: Horses: oral and GI erosions and ulcers, hypoalbuminemia, diarrhea, anorexia, and renal (KIDNEY) effects.

QUOTE

Cautious use in both foals and ponies is recommended because of increased incidences of hypoproteinemia (LOW BLOOD PROTEIN LEVELS)and GI ulceration. Foals with a heavy parasite burden or that are undernourished may be more susceptible to development of adverse effects.

Phenylbutazone may cause decreased renal blood flow and sodium and water retention, and should be used cautiously in animals with preexisting renal disease or CHF (CONGESTIVE HEART FAILURE).

QUOTE

The primary concerns with phenylbutazone therapy in humans include its bone marrow effects (agranulocytosis, aplastic anemia), renal and cardiovascular effects (fluid retention to acute renal failure), and GI effects (perforated ulcers). Other serious concerns with phenylbutazone include, hypersensitivity reactions, neurologic, dermatologic (SKIN), and hepatic toxicities.

While phenylbutazone is apparently a safer drug to use in horses and dogs than in people, serious adverse reactions can still occur. Toxic effects that have been reported in horses include oral and GI erosions and ulcers, hypoalbuminemia (LOW BLOOD PROTEIN LEVELS), diarrhea, anorexia (LOSS OF APPETITE), and renal effects (azotemia (HIGH LEVELS OF UREA/AMMONIA IN THE BLOOD)). Unlike humans, it does not appear that phenylbutazone causes much sodium and water retention in horses at usual doses, but edema has been reported. In dogs however, phenylbutazone may cause sodium and water retention, and diminished renal blood flow.

QUOTE

...acute overdosage with phenylbutazone include, a prompt respiratory or metabolic acidosis with compensatory hyperventilation, seizures, coma, and acute hypotensive crisis. In an acute overdose, symptoms of renal failure (oliguric, with proteinuria and hematuria), liver injury (hepatomegaly and jaundice), bone marrow depression, and ulceration (and perforation) of the GI tract may develop.

Get the picture ?


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## mysticalpark

That's real interesting and good to know - thanks for starting this topic as I've only just joined never saw the original either.

I have a friend that uses bute for anything and everything that happens to her minis. Do you mind if I print this up and send it to her??? Going to add it to my mini folder of facts - never had to use bute and our vet is pretty good. When I asked for it once (on friends recommendation) he said no it won't help the problem and gave me something else (can't remember what now lol).

Nicky

Mystical Park


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## JourneysEnd

Thanks for the info, Pam !

Do you feel it helps to give Ulcergard when you have to use bute ?


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## woodnldy

Dr. Pam, My vet said also that each had its usage. He recomended Bute for skelatal problems and Banamine for soft tissue . Have you found that to be so?? He was also very careful with dosage as in 1/4 tablet only once a day.and that with feed. I am always looking for better ways to care for my little guys .

Cheryl


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## wildoak

My little mare who had major surgery last month on a dislocated femur has been on bute, per vets instructions. They sent her home on the following - 1/2 tab bute once a day, Equioxx once a day, sucralfate twice a day, and Gastroguard. We did this for about 4 weeks post surgery. I started alternating bute and banamine, every other day, about a week/10 days ago, and am hoping I can wean her off the bute entirely. This was major surgery though - I'm kind of walking a fine line with keeping her pain free enough that she will continue to move and regain some strength, and at the same time not overdoing the bute etc. I very rarely use bute for the minis, but there are times I think when it is necessary.

Jan


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## chandab

JourneysEnd said:


> When I use bute, I prefer the tablets as they're easier to dose without overdosing than the paste is.


I've used both. I've found I can transfer one gram of paste to a 12cc syringe, and then dose from there. One gram paste is approximately 5cc bute, and I can then dose fairly accurately from there (for my B-size minis, I dose 1.5cc, if its major pain then 2cc). [i imagine a smaller syringe could be used, but I find the 12cc is easy to handle for oral dosing, than a smaller one.]


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## River Wood

I have used bute in minis per vets instructions, never have had a problem.


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## Miniv

Bute has it's special uses and only under careful administration, fortunately we have rarely needed it for them. We've chosen to shy off of it and use Banamine as our primary pain reliever.

Last year we had a filly who needed Bute and it was given very carefully. She was also on TWO ulcer drugs and still developed ulcers. (It was not a happy ending.) So, no.......We are even more hesitant about using Bute.


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## markadoodle

it ALMOST killed one of my minis


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## Relic

Well l for sure tell anyone who listens not to use Bute...but in real life thats our drug of choice and have never had a problem using it. Did have a vet years ago overdose a weaner with it and he ended up with ulcers but back then doses were thought to be the same for a biggie as a mini..


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## normajeanbaker

I have also used Bute in a few of my Mini's, per vet instructions, and have not had any issues. The dosage was carefully figured out and even on my "problem child", giving bute has never been an issue. I have heard stories about bute and Mini's, but I have used it several times and have not had any issues. When I had a mare getting more then a single dosage, she was on Gastroguard at the same time, so that may have helped with any upset stomach issues.

I think the most important thing with bute is to get the dosage as exact as you can.

~Jen~


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## Nathan Luszcz

Bute is better for muscular/skeletal issues, banamine for soft tissue. Bute is generally perfectly safe, when used for short term, and DOSED CORRECTLY. As mentioned, if you measure weight correctly, and measure the drug carefully, bute is fine for short term treatment.


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## shorthorsemom

Dosed by my former vet for founder pain my baby's pony got bute toxicity and had to be put down. I would think twice before ever using it again on anything small. I know it has its uses, but the bute toxicity was 100X more horrible than going through the founder. I had used bute for years on full sized horses, but never experienced it's toxic side effects before. It was awful. I think each case is different and bute can have its uses, but my experience was enough to make me shy away for the future. We found out later by his bloodwork (after the pony was put down) that he had Cushings which caused the founder. He was not overweight. Perhaps the Cushings added a factor? Will never know, but wanted to add this info in case it had bearing on the toxic outcome.


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## White Socks Miniature

I have used bute in minis and have never had a problem. I have also done pre-bute blood work on EVERY horse I was going to start on it. This was to check for kidney and liver parameters. One horse had some liver issues going on and was subsequently not put on bute.


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## Hosscrazy

> Perhaps the Cushings added a factor?


Cushings is not a factor. There are may cushingoid horses that are treated with bute (properly dosed). We're getting off topic here, but you may want to go back and see what the dosage amount was that your vet gave to your pony.

Liz R.


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## haydenfoxtrotters

wildoak said:


> My little mare who had major surgery last month on a dislocated femur has been on bute, per vets instructions. They sent her home on the following - 1/2 tab bute once a day, Equioxx once a day, sucralfate twice a day, and Gastroguard. We did this for about 4 weeks post surgery. I started alternating bute and banamine, every other day, about a week/10 days ago, and am hoping I can wean her off the bute entirely. This was major surgery though - I'm kind of walking a fine line with keeping her pain free enough that she will continue to move and regain some strength, and at the same time not overdoing the bute etc. I very rarely use bute for the minis, but there are times I think when it is necessary.Jan


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## haydenfoxtrotters

I too have been taught not to give to much bute to minis and have observed the muscle spasms in my mini this past winter when he foundered. We discovered he was a high insulin resistant horse so discovered he did much better when taken off meds and put on supplements to bring down his insulin level, which they are finding as a trigger for foundering especially when there are no fresh grass, feed issues and it seems to happen in the winter.

After bringing him through all that, he unfortunately has injured his hip which seems to be a dislocated femur like Jan talked about with her mare. It has been two weeks and have been on the equioxx and seems to be in less pain and more like himself although cannot still walk on the hind leg. The vets were not able to get a high enough picture (xray) of the hip joint because of the size of their portable and the thickness in this area. My vet seems ready to give up on him but he seems to be in less and less pain and eats fine. It seems wrong not to give this time....their isn't much swelling at all so don't know if I believe the femur head is fractured like the vet thinks. She has not worked with many minis so was wondering if anything similar has happened in the mini world out there!

Thanks!

Tamara


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## ddeeva

My mini came home from Auburn Univ last yr after having a ENTEROLITH colic surgery & they had me put her on GASTROGUARD for 4 wks from the stress of surgery, & her not being able to eat much.


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