# Love :)



## MiniMaid (May 30, 2009)

Lets chose love insted of hate.









Some questions for those who oppose gay marrige.

How does gays getting married effect YOUR straight marrige?, They arent going to legalize gay marrige and ban straight marrige.

Why do some of yall think marrige is only for christians? Becuase my parents got married by a judge insted of a pastor does that mean they shall not be legally married?

Some people are like "Gays shouldent be allowed to adopt kids children need a mom and a dad!"

(There are TONS of kids without any home at all, are you saying you'd rather see a homeless 5 year old then a happy one with two dads or two moms?)

If marrige is so sacred while aint anyone campaining to ban divorce?

Do you think god likes hate? It doesent say in the bible (From what ive read) "Love your neighbor - unless there a homo!!!!1"

Um...and incase you didn't know this a stupid sheet of paper doesent mean the wont live together, adopt kids, ect.


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## LowriseMinis (May 30, 2009)

I marched on the Day of Decision, Tuesday, protesting California's Prop 8 ruling. Tomorrow is Meet in the Middle for Equality: http://www.meetinthemiddle4equality.com/ which (lucky for me!) takes place in my very own town. I'll be there tomorrow. The following Saturday is Fresno Pride. I'll be there, too. And I will be at every event it is humanly possible for me to make. I will join in every letter writing campaign, every protest. I will never again miss out on a chance to respectfully but firmly state my opinion on this matter. I will NOT stop until we have marriage equality in this state.


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## Jill (May 30, 2009)

Although I am a long time Republican, I do support equal rights for gays.

Love is love and people who find it are lucky. Whether or not it's called marriage doesn't matter to me one way or the other, but there needs to be an equality of rights for people who choose to build a life together.

Being in the financial services profession, I know there are significant estate planning tools available exclusively to married couples, and that bothers me. There needs to be an equalization of rights.

Another thing is that people who oppose calling it marriage say that marriage is a religious term. Well, no... sorry. Mine and Harvey's marriage took place at a Justice of the Peace's residence and it was not a religious event. It was a civil ceremony that gave our partnership (of nearly 20 years at that time) a legal presence.


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## Matt73 (May 30, 2009)

Yeah, not sure I really understand those people who are so vehemently opposed to gay marriage. It doesn't affect them at all, so what's the issue? I'm not sure I believe in the idea of marriage, period. But I believe that everyone should be able to, if they want to. And I do believe that if Kevin and I ever do decide, that we should be able to just as much as a straight couple. And we can



My sister married her wife two years ago and it was a beautiful ceremony. Don't worry, California. Hate, ignorance, and intolerance will not win


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## wcr (May 30, 2009)

Going through high school and college in the 60's and 70's I have always been a staunch supporter of equal rights for everyone. Everyone should be paid equal pay for equal work. Women should have the same rights as men. The color of someone's skin doesn't dictate the quality of one's inner being. What happens in the bedroom is no one's business but the people involved. We don't chose who we love, love chooses us. Loving, committed relationships should be celebrated and supported no matter the sex of the partners. We live in a hard world sometimes and all need love and support and the right to pursue whatever gives meaning to our lives without judgment or condemnation.


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## LindaL (May 30, 2009)

As a legally married (it's all semantics...in Oregon they call it "domestic partnership") lesbian, I also do not understand why some straight people oppose gay marriage. I am just living my life and if I didn't tell people, they would not know. I am just like them in my daily life. I am not taking away straight married couples rights; they are not losing anything by my being married.

As far as adopting babies as a gay couple and having your kids raised by same sex parents, my kids were raised (from ages 9 and 10) by my ex-wife and I and they accepted that and "turned out" OK...If anything, it makes them more tolerable of alternative lifestyles IMO.

I truly do not see why in the year 2009, we are STILL making these things such issues...*sigh*


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## MiniMaid (May 30, 2009)

Thank you everyone.





You would think if people belive it's wrong to hate women, blacks, asians, ect they would learn that it's not ok to hate on gays either.


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## Jill (May 30, 2009)

I think a big part of the problem is that there are A LOT of ignorant people who think that gay (or straight) is actually a choice vs. part of who you are



I don't know if they think hard enough to reflect that they themselves (bigots) probably didn't choose to be straight


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## Matt73 (May 30, 2009)

Jill said:


> I think a big part of the problem is that there are A LOT of ignorant people who think that gay (or straight) is actually a choice vs. part of who you are
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know if they think hard enough to reflect that they themselves (bigots) probably didn't choose to be straight



Exactly


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## crponies (May 30, 2009)

It all comes back to your worldview really. I get my worldview from the Bible, and obviously those who have posted before me in this thread do not. Do you know what I can't stand? I can't stand it when people make the assumption that if you are opposed to same sex marriage being legalized that you hate people involved in those types of relationships. That is not true at all. I feel no hatred toward people living in that kind of sinful lifestyle. We are all sinners so I might as well hate everybody if I am going to pick one sin to make people worthy of hate. No, my responsibility is to love everyone and hate sin. My responsibility is to pray for my nation and to stand up for the truth of God's Word. The Bible says that the nation whose God is the Lord will be blessed. God will judge a people who choose to have no regard for the rules He has put in place. As I see it, it is not really our job to define marriage. God already did that when He created Adam and Eve. It is up to us if we choose to agree with that definition that our Creator has put in place or not. I choose to agree with God on the issue. So, Matt, Linda, and others like you, I do not hate you, but neither do I think you should have the legal right to have a marriage.


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## Bess Kelly (May 30, 2009)

While we are on the subject of "legalities", I have issues with those States who legally recognize "common law" marriage as a union (living otgether openly as if husband and wife with all the expectations and trappings of same) and the FEDS allow those people the same rights as a couple who "legally" married but, only in the States who recognize such. So, why should a couple be entitled to a government pension or different amount of a pension for living together unmarried in one state than they would by simply living together in another?????

Maybe this practice would be eliminated if same sex marriage were a "legal" happening!!


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## crponies (May 30, 2009)

You're right, Bess. "Common law" marriage doesn't really seem fair. I must say that I don't think living together is right either. My sister did that before she got married and I was not happy about it. I didn't hate her for it though.

Oh, I also wanted to add, that I hope you look beyond the issue of same sex marriage when you think about the court upholding Prop. 8. I hope you can see that it would have been a scary thing if the court started deciding it didn't matter what the people voted on, what the state constitution now says, etc., they are going to follow their own personal views. I certainly do not want judges who have no regard for the people's vote and the constitution.


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## MiniMaid (May 30, 2009)

Thank you crponies, and everyone else who has looked at this thread.






But has anyone thought of this?

Gay marriges could TOTALLY save the econamy!!


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## Littleum (May 30, 2009)

crponies said:


> It all comes back to your worldview really. I get my worldview from the Bible, and obviously those who have posted before me in this thread do not. Do you know what I can't stand? I can't stand it when people make the assumption that if you are opposed to same sex marriage being legalized that you hate people involved in those types of relationships. That is not true at all. I feel no hatred toward people living in that kind of *sinful lifestyle*. We are all sinners so I might as well hate everybody if I am going to pick one sin to make people worthy of hate. No, my responsibility is to love everyone and hate sin. My responsibility is to pray for my nation and to stand up for the truth of God's Word. The Bible says that the nation whose God is the Lord will be blessed. God will judge a people who choose to have no regard for the rules He has put in place. As I see it, it is not really our job to define marriage. God already did that when He created Adam and Eve. It is up to us if we choose to agree with that definition that our Creator has put in place or not. I choose to agree with God on the issue. So, Matt, Linda, and others like you, I do not hate you, but neither do I think you should have the legal right to have a marriage.


Marriage is a civil matter, with civil implications and consquences. It's not just a spiritual matter, and yet people constantly insist on interpreting it based on spiritual teachings! You have no idea how few rights you have as a "domestic partner". Marriage gives potent rights and protections under the law.

Western marriage actually started off as a strictly secular affair. It was a strictly secular affair until about the 7th century, when the budding Church, looking to expand its influence, started "blessing" unions and pushing the covenant of marriage. This isn't speculation. There's a lot of interesting stuff in early post-400AD church letters and the like. Marriage as a religious concept is actually rather new in the grandtime line of humanity. For most of our time here it's been a social & secular contract, with some religious trappings (such as asking fertility gods for their blessings and the like) But the idea of marriage as a covenant is fairly new.

Set aside your Bible for a moment. Where does it say, anywhere, that marriage must be between a man and a woman? No where. Only religious texts push the notion. There is no practical doctrine or evidence to cite beyond "It's just not natural" (what the heck does this mean? Is it like PETA who says humans keeping pets is unnatural? Keeping horses behind fences is unnatural?) or "It's not part of God's plan"

The United States has this really novel idea of "seperation of Church and State", so why do we have laws that are CLEARLY influenced by religious doctrine and nothing else? At least with the right-to-life debate you do have the compelling argument of "when does life actually begin", which is a troubling ethical & medical debate exclusive of religious doctrine.

Please show me where it says gay marriage clearly disturbs the fabric of society, clearly harms everyone involved and around it (and don't you dare cite some 900 Club BS or Church-funded BS paper or basically anything with a religious affiliation, unless you want to make my point for me, that is) and clearly should NOT be permitted based on objective facts, well-documented facts.


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## Matt73 (May 30, 2009)

crponies said:


> It all comes back to your worldview really. I get my worldview from the Bible, and obviously those who have posted before me in this thread do not. Do you know what I can't stand? I can't stand it when people make the assumption that if you are opposed to same sex marriage being legalized that you hate people involved in those types of relationships. That is not true at all. I feel no hatred toward people living in that kind of sinful lifestyle. We are all sinners so I might as well hate everybody if I am going to pick one sin to make people worthy of hate. No, my responsibility is to love everyone and hate sin. My responsibility is to pray for my nation and to stand up for the truth of God's Word. The Bible says that the nation whose God is the Lord will be blessed. God will judge a people who choose to have no regard for the rules He has put in place. As I see it, it is not really our job to define marriage. God already did that when He created Adam and Eve. It is up to us if we choose to agree with that definition that our Creator has put in place or not. I choose to agree with God on the issue. So, Matt, Linda, and others like you, I do not hate you, but neither do I think you should have the legal right to have a marriage.



But, again, why do you care? If I am going to heck...God will decide that. If it's "wrong" for me to declare a beautiful bond with the person I love, why are you judging that? I just don't understand. Is God going to strike you down for not rallying against gay marriage? Are you trying to "save" our souls. Please...enlighten me. Is it insecurity? Are you just hedging your bets?

God is all for love and understanding and doing to others what you'd have done to you. Not judgement. Don't even get me started on the bible and it's many many interpretations



A marriage is not a biblical institution BTW (or doesnt' have to be). P.S. Thanks for not hating me


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## osu_barrelracer (May 30, 2009)

Happily married lesbian


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## wsf (May 30, 2009)

crponies said:


> It all comes back to your worldview really. I get my worldview from the Bible, and obviously those who have posted before me in this thread do not. Do you know what I can't stand? I can't stand it when people make the assumption that if you are opposed to same sex marriage being legalized that you hate people involved in those types of relationships. That is not true at all. I feel no hatred toward people living in that kind of sinful lifestyle. We are all sinners so I might as well hate everybody if I am going to pick one sin to make people worthy of hate. No, my responsibility is to love everyone and hate sin. My responsibility is to pray for my nation and to stand up for the truth of God's Word. The Bible says that the nation whose God is the Lord will be blessed. God will judge a people who choose to have no regard for the rules He has put in place. As I see it, it is not really our job to define marriage. God already did that when He created Adam and Eve. It is up to us if we choose to agree with that definition that our Creator has put in place or not. I choose to agree with God on the issue. So, Matt, Linda, and others like you, I do not hate you, but neither do I think you should have the legal right to have a marriage.


Wow, Im not even sure what to say other than I am extremely offended. Not everyone has the same beliefs. Good for you, have your beliefs, but dont try to force your beliefs on my life. I usually don't post much but I am too saddened, hurt and offended to not say anything.


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## osu_barrelracer (May 30, 2009)

crponies said:


> It all comes back to your worldview really. I get my worldview from the Bible, and obviously those who have posted before me in this thread do not. Do you know what I can't stand? I can't stand it when people make the assumption that if you are opposed to same sex marriage being legalized that you hate people involved in those types of relationships. That is not true at all. I feel no hatred toward people living in that kind of sinful lifestyle. We are all sinners so I might as well hate everybody if I am going to pick one sin to make people worthy of hate. No, my responsibility is to love everyone and hate sin. My responsibility is to pray for my nation and to stand up for the truth of God's Word. The Bible says that the nation whose God is the Lord will be blessed. God will judge a people who choose to have no regard for the rules He has put in place. As I see it, it is not really our job to define marriage. God already did that when He created Adam and Eve. It is up to us if we choose to agree with that definition that our Creator has put in place or not. I choose to agree with God on the issue. So, Matt, Linda, and others like you, I do not hate you, but neither do I think you should have the legal right to have a marriage.



I personally find your post extremely narrow minded and offensive. I AM NOT religious. I know that my lifestyle is NOT a 'sin'. You say you live your life by the bible, but the bible says that no one sin is greater than another. Therefore, my choosing to be with another woman, as your religion perceives it, isn't any different of a sin then say. . . the girl down the road having sex before she is married. Yet, YOU are going to say that I can't get married, when according to your religion, my 'sin' isn't any different then pre-marital sex, yet you have no problem with those getting married. You can't pick and choose and manipulate the bible to fit your personal view.

I have no problem with you not supporting gay marriage, that is your right, but I do have a problem with your reasoning for it.

I also have a problem with, in the same sentence, you say you don't hate us, but you would deny us a simple freedom. You may as well spit in my face. That is pure discrimination. Go find a gay 'friend'. Walk up to them. Tell them you are their friend. . . then look in their face and tell them they are not equal to you, and aren't worthy of a basic freedom to be with the person they love.

Discrimination is HATE!


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## MiniMaid (May 30, 2009)

osu_barrelracer said:


> crponies said:
> 
> 
> > It all comes back to your worldview really. I get my worldview from the Bible, and obviously those who have posted before me in this thread do not. Do you know what I can't stand? I can't stand it when people make the assumption that if you are opposed to same sex marriage being legalized that you hate people involved in those types of relationships. That is not true at all. I feel no hatred toward people living in that kind of sinful lifestyle. We are all sinners so I might as well hate everybody if I am going to pick one sin to make people worthy of hate. No, my responsibility is to love everyone and hate sin. My responsibility is to pray for my nation and to stand up for the truth of God's Word. The Bible says that the nation whose God is the Lord will be blessed. God will judge a people who choose to have no regard for the rules He has put in place. As I see it, it is not really our job to define marriage. God already did that when He created Adam and Eve. It is up to us if we choose to agree with that definition that our Creator has put in place or not. I choose to agree with God on the issue. So, Matt, Linda, and others like you, I do not hate you, but neither do I think you should have the legal right to have a marriage.
> ...






:ThumbUp

Prop 8: The musical (Starring Jack black)


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## Sonya (May 31, 2009)

I don't think Jayne is trying to force her beliefs...the original poster asked why, and she tried to answered why she doesn't agree with it. I don't know why everyone is surprised by her reasoning...obviously the majority feel similiar/same as her. And of course if she is going to defend her position, she is going to use her interpretation of the bible which is what she uses as a basis to lead her life.

I am not saying I agree with her because I don't , but to chastise her for her beliefs is no different than others chastising homosexuals, or anyone else for that matter, for thiers.


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## Jill (May 31, 2009)

I just want to chime in and basically echo what Sonya has said.

While my opinion is different than Jayne's and while I feel a closeness to God that is not effected by my feelings of support for gays, I admire that she spoke up and told us how she feels when she knew that was the minority opinion when it comes to this discussion (as contained here). She has consistently stated how she feels in past conversations in much the same way and I don't feel she's forcing anything on anyone. My perspective is that Jayne has said _"This is how I feel, and why I feel that way." _

Also, I have a lot of mixed feelings regarding Prop. 8. My dilemma is that the it was open to a public vote and while it didn't go the way I personally would have voted, in this Nation, how do we rightfully try to set aside the will of the people? I have no idea the right answer.

I support an equal legal status to be available to gay couples as it is to straight couples. I disagree that marriage is a religious matter. Mine had nothing to do with the church. It only had to do with the court and the justice of the peace.


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## osu_barrelracer (May 31, 2009)

Sonya said:


> I don't think Jayne is trying to force her beliefs...the original poster asked why, and she tried to answered why she doesn't agree with it. I don't know why everyone is surprised by her reasoning...obviously the majority feel similiar/same as her. And of course if she is going to defend her position, she is going to use her interpretation of the bible which is what she uses as a basis to lead her life.
> I am not saying I agree with her because I don't , but to chastise her for her beliefs is no different than others chastising homosexuals, or anyone else for that matter, for thiers.
> 
> When someone makes a decision about what I can or can't do with my life (aka voting on prop 8) It does force their opinion/belief onto us. Gay marriage is about equality. Not religion. We allow Muslims and Jews and all other non-christians to get married. My being married to my wife, has not affected any other person anywhere.
> ...


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## barnbum (May 31, 2009)

> but to chastise her for her beliefs is no different than others chastising homosexuals, or anyone else for that matter, for thiers.


Bingo. I think this will mostly be a supporters post, since those who do not will get blasted, and there's no benefit in that. Bravo to Jayne to stating her beliefs.






I am a very traditional, conservative, Bible following person.


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## Sonya (May 31, 2009)

I wouldn't say the fact that someone voted against same sex marriages is forcing their beliefs on others...frankly thats the gov't...they have asked the people and the people voted..yes based on their beliefs but it's the govt who wrote/enforces it....and alot have brought up that marriage is just a civil union...for many it is more spiritual than just a civil arrangement and many deeply religous people believe that...

To overturn the vote would be a travesty...isn't that what voting is about...I didn't like the outcome of the last presidential election, along with many others, does that mean we overturn it?

There will always be people who disagree with same sex marriages...you can not make them accept it but you can teach tolerance...which is a small step but at least a step.


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## osu_barrelracer (May 31, 2009)

Sonya said:


> I wouldn't say the fact that someone voted against same sex marriages is forcing their beliefs on others...frankly thats the gov't...they have asked the people and the people voted..yes based on their beliefs but it's the govt who wrote/enforces it....and alot have brought up that marriage is just a civil union...for many it is more spiritual than just a civil arrangement and many deeply religous people believe that...
> To overturn the vote would be a travesty...isn't that what voting is about...I didn't like the outcome of the last presidential election, along with many others, does that mean we overturn it?
> 
> There will always be people who disagree with same sex marriages...you can not make them accept it but you can teach tolerance...which is a small step but at least a step.


I'm not attacking anyone's religion. She stated her opinion and reasoning for it. And I stated mine against hers. I spent a lot of years in the Catholic Church, and I just don't believe that you should stand behind the bible when talking about gay marriage. It's picking and choosing. And I think that is wrong. Gay or not.

It simply just IS NOT an issue of Religion! Its basic rights.

And for the record lol. . . I DID NOT vote for our current president


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## LowriseMinis (May 31, 2009)

Gay marriage is not an issue of faith, religion, or beliefs. Same sex marriage is an issue of equality and legality. We have THREE classes of people in CA, now. Straight people who are and can marry as they wish, homosexual couples who are married, and homosexual couples who can't marry. The couples who can't marry and barred from marrying because of their gender and sexual orientation.

It is discrimination.

They were granted rights, and the majority VOTED to remove their rights. Please stop and think about that-the majority were able to REMOVE RIGHTS from a minority group. That is a frightening precedent to set, isn't it? If they can do it to homosexuals...

In the end, no one is asking anyone to change what they believe. No one's forcing any church to perform or recognize a marriage they do not agree with. You can believe that homosexuals don't deserve equal rights all you want, but that doesn't make it so.

Everyone deserves to be equal under the law, and they _will_ be.


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## Jill (May 31, 2009)

LowriseMinis said:


> They were granted rights, and the majority VOTED to remove their rights. Please stop and think about that-the majority were able to REMOVE RIGHTS from a minority group. That is a frightening precedent to set, isn't it? If they can do it to homosexuals...


That may be the grounds to have it over turned. Makes sense to me the way you've said it _(*smile* -- We agree... it was bound to happen sooner or later!)_.


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## LowriseMinis (May 31, 2009)

Jill said:


> _(*smile* -- We agree... it was bound to happen sooner or later!)_.






I was looking for a hi-5 smily-I guess we don't have one!

Adding in: Looking at it that way, it is no longer an issue of gay marriage, or gay rights (or GLBTQ rights, to be all-inclusive). It is a matter of civil rights. Equality under the law. California, after all, is a republic. One of the duties of a republic is to protect the minority from the 'tyranny of the majority'. California has failed to do that this time.


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## SilverDollar (Jun 1, 2009)

I have a question that I don't want anyone to think is a "red herring", but...what about polygamy? I'm serious. I am a huge fan of the HBO series "Big Love". While I understand that on that show (and in most publicized cases of polygamy) it's about the religion and, many times, underage people, but what if someone wants to marry more than one person? Would there be anything wrong with that from a legal standpoint? (Other than it is currently illegal like gay marriage.) Couldn't/shouldn't that be added to the gay rights marriage scenario? I'm not talking about underage boys or girls but situations where it's agreed upon by all parties concerned and that's how they want to live their lives. If children can have two moms or two dads, what would be wrong with having two moms and one dad, or two dads and one mom?

Just curious. I would think it's the same argument as gay marriage. Living in California myself I think it's only a matter of time before that would get put on the ballot. Seeing as we're in such a financial crisis here, let's just put it all on one new ballot to save some money!



(I don't mean any disrespect to those in favor of gay marriage with this question so I hope no one is offended. As for the Bible issues with this, I'm not questioning that part of it. I think I know the answer.)

(Personally I couldn't handle more than one husband!



)


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## MiniMaid (Jun 1, 2009)

SilverDollar said:


> I have a question that I don't want anyone to think is a "red herring", but...what about polygamy? I'm serious. I am a huge fan of the HBO series "Big Love". While I understand that on that show (and in most publicized cases of polygamy) it's about the religion and, many times, underage people, but what if someone wants to marry more than one person? Would there be anything wrong with that from a legal standpoint? (Other than it is currently illegal like gay marriage.) Couldn't/shouldn't that be added to the gay rights marriage scenario? I'm not talking about underage boys or girls but situations where it's agreed upon by all parties concerned and that's how they want to live their lives. If children can have two moms or two dads, what would be wrong with having two moms and one dad, or two dads and one mom?
> Just curious. I would think it's the same argument as gay marriage. Living in California myself I think it's only a matter of time before that would get put on the ballot. Seeing as we're in such a financial crisis here, let's just put it all on one new ballot to save some money!
> 
> 
> ...


I think if all the other wives, and husbands are OK with it people should be allowed to have more then one spouse.


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## LowriseMinis (Jun 1, 2009)

SilverDollar said:


> (Personally I couldn't handle more than one husband!
> 
> 
> 
> )


I don't think I could, either!

I have to issue a few caveats before I go into this. One, it is a red herring because the two movements are not related. Two, *the two movements are not related.* I hate the "If this, then this" arguments because they do imply a direct connection. "If we let gay people get married people will marry goats next!" Ahem, anyway...

If you asked me this two years ago, my basic response to polygamy would have been "Ew, no, no way", but frankly this movement HAS made me rethink that. Polygamy isn't something I want for myself. It isn't something I necessarily agree with. Frankly, it makes me a little uncomfortable. There's a lot of negative stigma around it-things you mentioned like overbearing religion and underage participants.

But if we are talking about a group of consenting adults wanting to enter into a legally recognized union...I have a hard time gathering any ire for them, or any will to stop them. Yes, it could get complicated. Some sort of system would have to be worked out to deal with legal issues arising from a marriage like that. I think it could be done, though.

If one of my friends or family told me they were a polygamist, then I'd show up at their marches and rallies in support. Otherwise, I might simply vote with them to give them the equal rights under the law that they desire and deserve.


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## TripleDstables (Jun 1, 2009)

You always see warning labels on things that could hurt you. So if you are sensitive about your beliefs and love your god dearly... don't read this I guess. 

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I was raised catholic. Then my mother switched to a lutheran church. I despised all of it. When I would ask questions, I was told "Not to question him and all that he created" which is bologna. I saw right through all of the contradictions and improbable things they were telling me. I cannot grasp the concept of bowing down to a big man in the sky that we cannot see and reading a book written by another man and actually believing that he controls my life and the world around me. I don't believe in wishing on shooting stars, karma, or that my life has already been planned out for me by someone else. I don't capitalize the name or the word "he" and never have unless it's at the beginning of a sentence. I have no god in my life, and I couldn't be happier.





My personal opinion is that people use faith as an excuse to erase their wrong doings, that they know are wrong. Why do people chose faith? I'm not sure. Maybe they lack structure in their lives, or are lost and need something to follow. I rather collect stamps. I don't need an explanation for what I do. I don't need to answer to anyone for my actions. I'm not committing a crime, and I'm not going to heck for putting my elbows on the table. If there is a big man shaking his finger at me up there, I can't see him anyways.





The fact that people "of god" feel that they can judge others, sickens me. If they are "of god" like they say, then they _know_ that he is the only one that can judge. Going by their beliefs of course. Which religion is always called "belief" which I find funny. I've never heard someone say that unless they were unsure of themself. But then again, everyone sins and everyone is forgiven. So whats the point anyways?

I support gay marriage.



I'm completely straight and I *know* they should have the same rights as me. They are people. They've committed no crime against me. Their marriage effects me none, it just makes them happy. And, if you're against that... well you have worse problems than being homosexual...

I think polygamy is... different. If it makes you happy though... more power to you. It doesn't effect me. So I don't mind if it goes on. I'm open minded. I don't think I need to rule other people's lives. I don't judge. It's not my place. It's no ones. I think the government needs a kick in the rear for trying to control what we can do as well. I understand laws for drugs and traffic and such... but who we can marry? Thats extreme. I think it's time for a governmental reform.

If anyone is offended... well. Thats a shame. I don't know what else to say besides that.


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## ~Lisa~ (Jun 1, 2009)

LindaL said:


> I truly do not see why in the year 2009, we are STILL making these things such issues...*sigh*






> The fact that people "of god" feel that they can judge others, sickens me. If they are "of god" like they say, then they _know_ that he is the only one that can judge


I could not agree more. Saying it is a religious thing or a Christian thing or a bible thing is just a crock.

If only we as a society were just as concerned with the amount of petifiles on the loose, or battered women, or abused and neglected children - or the amount of homeless women and children and how many kids go to bed and to school hungry every day.







> But, again, why do you care? If I am going to heck...God will decide that. If it's "wrong" for me to declare a beautiful bond with the person I love, why are you judging that? I


Matt you are correct for anyone else to decide who is sinful and going to H E L L makes no sense to me but no matter I have been told many a time I am going to H E L L right here on this very forum. Due to the type of parent I am and the type of dogs I owned and who knows what else



(and I am straight lol) but no worries I have my handbasket decorated and ready to go


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## LowriseMinis (Jun 1, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> If only we as a society were just as concerned with the amount of petifiles on the loose, or battered women, or abused and neglected children - or the amount of homeless women and children and how many kids go to bed and to school hungry every day.


The anti-gay marriage folks out here like to label their side as being pro family, and for the children. What I've found though is when they say "for the children" they mean for THEIR children. They seem to forget that there are kids out there with LGBTQ parents. Kids and teens who grew up being taunted by THEIR kids, because their parents felt it was okay to teach them to hate, or at very least never taught them to be tolerant.

They seem to forget that about 1 in 10 (or so?) people are gay. Odds are, some of their kids are going to grow up gay. Do they want their kids to repress themselves out of fear? To have to lie, and hide? Or would they rather love them for who they are, and still be able to sit in the front row at their son or daughter's wedding?

In addition, I heard this weekend that the suicide rate for LGBTQ teens is four times higher than it is for straight teens. That figure jumps to NINE TIMES higher if those teenagers come from families that are considered 'unaccepting'.

So, who's for the children, exactly?


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## LindaL (Jun 1, 2009)

LowriseMinis said:


> In addition, I heard this weekend that the suicide rate for LGBTQ teens is four times higher than it is for straight teens. That figure jumps to NINE TIMES higher if those teenagers come from families that are considered 'unaccepting'.
> So, who's for the children, exactly?


This is indirectly related, yet is related by your statement...People Magazine had an article recently about two 11 year old boys who committed suicide for being bullied for being "gay". Children use words like that a lot even if they do not know exactly what it means, but obviously "gay" for these boys (whether they were gay or not) had such a bad connotation that they felt the need to end their lives!



How sad that just the possibility of being "gay" should EVER have such an affect on anyone's life!!





Being gay has NO affect on anyone's life other than the people involved with them sexually...NONE! Denying a person's right to love and marry someone based ONLY on their sexual orientation is wrong...I do not understand how someone has the right to say "because I think this is sinful I am denying you this right." Well, I am here to tell you that I DID marry another woman and I am happy and live my life in a such a way that I do NO harm to anyone, so why the H E L L (was gonna say something else....



) does ANYONE care?? I need to stop or



.... :arg! :arg!


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## miniwhinny (Jun 1, 2009)

TripleDstables...

THANK DOG !!!!!!!!!!! At last a thinking human YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooo BRAVO for EVERYTHING you just said











"what another human brave enough to admit that you really DON'T hear voices in your head other than your own mind thinking"


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## osu_barrelracer (Jun 1, 2009)

LindaL said:


> LowriseMinis said:
> 
> 
> > In addition, I heard this weekend that the suicide rate for LGBTQ teens is four times higher than it is for straight teens. That figure jumps to NINE TIMES higher if those teenagers come from families that are considered 'unaccepting'.
> ...


Oh Don't stop preaching now! lol

I have never hid the fact that I was gay. Everyone has always supported me in everything I have done.

I fell in love with the most beautiful woman in the world. We are so lucky to have each other, and our lives are better for it.

BUT, I can't marry her here (smack in the bible belt in Oklahoma)...BUT Dumb a s s redneck down the road from us has all the right in the world to get drunk, go on a spree and marry some random girl from the local dump of a bar...then wake up in the morning and realize oh crap and just get divorced. And he can do it over and over again as many times as he likes.

But I can't get married? How does that make any sense?

But you know what, I love my wife. And I enjoyed the trip to Canada


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## LindaL (Jun 1, 2009)

osu_barrelracer said:


> But you know what, I love my wife. And I enjoyed the trip to Canada



YOU GO GIRL!!


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## SilverDollar (Jun 2, 2009)

LowriseMinis said:


> SilverDollar said:
> 
> 
> > (Personally I couldn't handle more than one husband!
> ...


I disagree...it is *not* a red herring. (I knew someone would bring up the "...marrying animals" thing.



) I brought up polygamy because it challenges peoples' sense of what's been "normal" and "acceptable" for a very long time, just like the concept of gay marriage. I would speculate that most heterosexual married people as well as gay married people wouldn't want polygamy for themselves, but I suspect there is a small segment of the population that might want polygamy in their own lives (yes, consenting adults only). There are other cultures in the world that embrace polygamy. My point is that there will always be some segment of the population that will want something that is not the "norm". Not everyone will be comfortable, but it's critical that we try to see all sides of peoples' opinions and beliefs and respect each other. I don't like the assumptions and blanket statements made on _both_ sides of the gay marriage issue--it's gotten pretty ugly with people on both sides spewing hate. I hope people can just agree to disagree as they passionately stand for their beliefs.


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## LindaL (Jun 2, 2009)

SilverDollar said:


> Not everyone will be comfortable, but it's critical that we try to see all sides of peoples' opinions and beliefs and respect each other. I don't like the assumptions and blanket statements made on _both_ sides of the gay marriage issue--it's gotten pretty ugly with people on both sides spewing hate. I hope people can just agree to disagree as they passionately stand for their beliefs.



I do agree to disagree...which is why I didn't keep coming back to respond to every post. I do NOT hate, nor do I disrespect those with different views than my own...HOWEVER, it is when those views are PUSHED onto ME (and MY rights are taken away) that I must take a stand. It is OK for those who don't believe in gay marriage to not believe in it...but it is NOT Ok for them to subject me to those same beliefs and expect me to live my life according to what they think is "right and wrong". There is a difference in agreeing to disagree and speaking your mind...and my opinions are only meant to make a point....never to spew hate or hurt anyone for their beliefs.


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> Matt you are correct for anyone else to decide who is sinful and going to H E L L makes no sense to me but no matter I have been told many a time I am going to H E L L right here on this very forum. Due to the type of parent I am and the type of dogs I owned and who knows what else
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're not going to heck because lets face it...anyone with half a brain cell truely knows that there's no such thing. I mean truely...1000 years ago I can see uneducated people buying into that c**P but in this day and age...when every single major event of the bible has been proven to be wrong,,,'bout time people crawled out from under their "fear" and opened their eyes. The world is an AWESOME place. This is it..THIS is all there is - so take care of it, take care of everyone (EVERYONE) in it because when you're gone...you're gone.

and why would anyone raise their kids "gods way" . He did such a tick poor job of parenting he had to drown all of his kids LOL.


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## Jill (Jun 2, 2009)

miniwhinny said:


> You're not going to heck because lets face it...anyone with half a brain cell truely knows that there's no such thing. I mean truely...1000 years ago I can see uneducated people buying into that c**P but in this day and age...when every single major event of the bible has been proven to be wrong,,,'bout time people crawled out from under their "fear" and opened their eyes. The world is an AWESOME place. This is it..THIS is all there is - so take care of it, take care of everyone (EVERYONE) in it because when you're gone...you're gone.
> and why would anyone raise their kids "gods way" . He did such a tick poor job of parenting he had to drown all of his kids LOL.


Miniwhinny --

While I agree that neither Matt nor Lisa are H E L L bound, I would venture to say that I've got more than half a brain. I believe there is more to us than just this particular physical existence. If you choose to feel that people who believe in a higher power have only half a brain, that's up to you. I feel sorry for the fact that you don't know that our souls go on, and that you want to bait those who are peaceful with their own beliefs.

Jill


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## Matt73 (Jun 2, 2009)

Yeah, a bit harsh Miniwhinny



The fact is none of us knows what (if anything) comes after this life; we'll find out when we leave this world. I have my beliefs and strong suspicions, but to belittle anyone's beliefs is, well, disrespectful.


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

You don't have to be a christian to be religious. I happen to be buddhist so I don't believe in heaven or heck or any of the hatred I feel is in the bible....women aren't allowed to talk in church...or teach male children...homosexuality is evil...people who work on sundays should be stoned to death...it's okay to own slaves...kill unruley children- the list goes on and on and on. I believe that everyone has the right to live their lives in peace and happiness and just won't support a religion who's one book prescripes living this way. 99% of the people I know who really really dislike homosexuals dislike them because their holy book tells them to. Sad...they're people just like everyone else. I'm straight but I'd welcome any gay person as a friend or relative just the same way I'd welcome someone short, tall, black, white, yellow, red, fat, thin, able bodied, disabled etc. People are people.


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## Jill (Jun 2, 2009)

> You don't have to be a christian to be religious. I happen to be buddhist so I don't believe in heaven or heck or any of the hatred I feel is in the bible....women aren't allowed to talk in church...or teach male children...homosexuality is evil...people who work on sundays should be stoned to death...it's okay to own slaves...kill unruley children- the list goes on and on and on. I believe that everyone has the right to live their lives in peace and happiness and just won't support a religion who's one book prescripes living this way. 99% of the people I know who really really dislike homosexuals dislike them because their holy book tells them to. Sad...they're people just like everyone else. I'm straight but I'd welcome any gay person as a friend or relative just the same way I'd welcome someone short, tall, black, white, yellow, red, fat, thin, able bodied, disabled etc. People are people.


It's actually hard for me to even understand or make much sense of what you have just said, and what you said prior was marginally easier for me to follow. There must be more to what you are trying to tell us than what you have posted.

I never knew women couldn't speak in church or shouldn't teach boys. The last place you'll find me is actually in a church, but I have to say I don't think many of my church going friends have wanted to stone anyone because they worked on Sunday and none of them own slaves. I'm fairly sure none of them have killed unruly children, either.

To me, it sounds like you don't like religious hypocrites who use what they feel the read in(to) the bible to justify their own hateful feelings. I don't like that type of person, either. However, most of the Christians I know are not at all those types of people.


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

Jill said:


> I never knew women couldn't speak in church or shouldn't teach boys. The last place you'll find me is actually in a church, but I have to say I don't think many of my church going friends have wanted to stone anyone because they worked on Sunday and none of them own slaves. I'm fairly sure none of them have killed unruly children, either.
> To me, it sounds like you don't like religious hypocrites who use what they feel the read in(to) the bible to justify their own hateful feelings. I don't like that type of person, either. However, most of the Christians I know are not at all those types of people.


re: women..it's in there kiddo...not hard to find.

Yes Jill...you re exactly right on how I feel about hypocrites. If you're going to have faith and follow something you can't pick and choose what parts you want to believe in. Don't stone your kids...but do think gay is a sin ?

I have dozens of Christian friend and I respect their faith BUT ...look at this...

*I was born on December 25th*

A star in the East stopped over the place where I was born.

The star was followed by Three Kings (solar deities).

Three shepherds witnessed my birth.

My mother was a virgin.

An angel told her she would bear the son of god.

My mothers name was Meri-Isis, my fathers name was Josept

I was a child teacher at age 12.

Nothing much was written about me until I turned 30.

When I was 30 I was baptized.

My baptizer was beheaded.

I had 12 disciples.

I walked on water, raised Elazarus from the dead, calmed the seas, healed the sick, performed miracles.

I was known as the "fisher of men, the alpha and the omega, the son of god, the light of the world, the one true god"

I was crucified between two thieves

Burried in a tomb

After three days I rose from the dead to join my father in heaven.

Women witnessed my resurrection.

I will return to fight for goodness over darkness one last time at which time all of the souls will rise and join me at my fathers side in heaven and have eternal life.

Now I've asked my friends about this and they all say..thats Jesus...well yes it is but THIS was written and very well documented thousands of years BEFORE it was used for the life of Jesus. THIS is the life of HORUS the Egyptian Sun god. Word for word, event for event the same.

Most people go to church and are only taught what the church wants to teach them. Not ONE , not one of my Christian friends have looked beyond what they are taught and actually researched into their faith. If you do this...and then still want to follow the dictrines I say go for it. But go forward with eyes open.

I find it hard when people pick and choose what they want to take from the bible to suit themselves - like you said very correctly Jill---no one is killing people who work on Sundays but they are happy to stop a gay person getting their rights like the rest of us.

and P.S. how many people have really calculated how long it would take a South American Three Toed Tree Sloth to get from South AMerican to Noah's arc in the middle east...it would take , based on how fast a tree sloth moves...84 years providing they NEVER stopped to eat or sleep and at least 42 of those years would be spent swimming across the Atlantic (without food or sleep) It just couldn't happen.


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## Jill (Jun 2, 2009)

Miniwhinny, I don't think you and I understand each other very well. But to be clear, I'm not going to join you in belittling anyone else's religion even if it's not my own. It doesn't make me feel more right to try and make others look more wrong when it comes to spirituality. I am comfortable with my beliefs and my God -- and I am also comfortable in letting people be themselves, be they Christian, Jewish, Buddhist, black, white, gay, etc., etc., etc.... (and in any kind of combination so long as they don't harm others).

When it comes to Christianity and the Bible, I personally am not picking and choosing any parts to believe or not believe. It's not really a part of my spirituality nor my upbringing. However, I'm not about to make fun of those who hold it dear based on the fact that a fraction of those who say they are Christian use parts of the bible to find justification for the hate they unfortunately feel.

_PS at 40, I don't feel you probably should be calling me "kiddo". On the other hand, maybe it's an omen that I'll get carded at Outback this weekend -- I always tip bigger when that happens









_


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

Jill said:


> _PS at 40, I don't feel you probably should be calling me "kiddo". On the other hand, maybe it's an omen that I'll get carded at Outback this weekend -- I always tip bigger when that happens
> 
> 
> 
> ...


'Kiddo" is an expression used by Brits and Ozzie and doesn't refer to one's age but a more familiar term than calling someone by name or "mr" or "mrs" etc.

I have no problem with peoples faith and wouldn't never put someones faith down. In my house we have an athiest, and nontheist a catholic and a very devout christian and we all support each other. My 15 year old son - the christian - goes to a very expensive private christian school which I enchourage because it supports his faith. I just feel - as Bubba himself once said - do not believe anything, not matter what it is or who said it, even if I said it, unless you believe in your heart that it is right (that's not word for word - but the jist) Like I said - but just have other things to do now today than keep repeating myself - I have found very few(okay..."no") people who follow certain religious doctrines who have actually used their given gray matter to research any deeper into that faith than what they are told or led to believe by others. If you believe homosexuality is a sin based on the christian bible...fair enough...but then surely you should be following the rest of the rules too. Otherwise you're really not following your doctrines. I have a mormon friend who believes black people are evil...I can't stand that either



Because I don't believe black people descended from the "evil son" I believe skin color has to do with the amount of melanin in the skin.


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## LowriseMinis (Jun 2, 2009)

I think someone's been watching Religulous!

Miniwhinny, you've kind of gone off on a tangent. This thread is about gay marriage, not religion. If you want to start one about religion please do so, because I don't think this thread's the right place for it.


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

LowriseMinis said:


> I think someone's been watching Religulous!


Never seen it. Just have an inquiring mind and try to learn about many things





As for religion..fair enough..it's just hard to seperate that fact that most opposed to gay marriage are opposed not from the humanity/legal/whatever side but from religious opinions.


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## LowriseMinis (Jun 2, 2009)

That is true, but please remember two things:

1. Hate will not conquer hate.

2. They aren't all like that.

I attended a counter-rally of the "Still Standing in the Middle for Marriage" meet on Sunday. It was led by a group called California Faith for Equality.






This is Rabbi Denise Eger, leading the group in prayer.






And a big shot of our little group.

I'm agnostic myself, but the people who gathered together on Sunday to stand across from 'the opposition' and show support for equality ran the gamut. I stood as an agnostic with Rabbi Denise on one side of me, holding hands with an atheist I've never met before (and Christians and Jews and a sweet guy who's father was a Southern Baptist minister), and we all stood together and prayed and supported each other and held signs and blew bubbles and sang songs. It was a beautiful day.


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## Hosscrazy (Jun 2, 2009)

> This is Rabbi Denise Eger, leading the group in prayer


Denise Eger performed my wedding (heterosexual) ceremony!

Liz R.


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## osu_barrelracer (Jun 2, 2009)

I very much agree that this isn't the place to religion bashing.

EVERYONE has a right to their own view. If you expect Christians, and everyone else, to respect your opinion and beliefs, then you need to respect theirs.

I do not agree with a lot of views of various faiths, but I still respect those people and their right to freedom of religion.

Just because we don't always agree with everyone else, doesn't mean they don't have a right to those beliefs.


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## LowriseMinis (Jun 2, 2009)

Hosscrazy said:


> Denise Eger performed my wedding (heterosexual) ceremony!


Must have been a heck of a ceremony! I think Denise is all kinds of awesome.


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

Once more (and last time lol ) I have total respect for peoples religions otherwise I wouldn't be paying for my christian son to go to christian school and wouldn't be in total support of his faith. Every single one of my friends are people of faith...Christians and Mormons and I respect them all.

One of my very best friends, a very faithful Mormon told me that she would disown her son and throw him out of the house if he ever told her he was gay. I asked her "why" and she said because the bible said homosexuality is a sin - but all the other "rules" are ingored...I dunno - just call it frustration.

But I thought we weren't talking about religion here anymore


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## Jill (Jun 2, 2009)

Well, I got lazy and took a nap (but woke up at 3am). When I got up, there was Dick Cheney on the news speaking about his support of gay marriage and reminding me to check in on this thread



:BigGrin





I could be wrong as I personally don't gravitate to any organized religion, but I think there are more Christians who have a live and let live philosophy vs. those that want to thump the bible and bash gays



:yes





Right now, I really do not know "a lot" of gay people but I know enough of them to know that's just how they are, just like straight is just how I am. I also am old enough to know that love is love and people who find it together are lucky


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

Jill said:


> Well, I got lazy and took a nap (but woke up at 3am). When I got up, there was Dick Cheney on the news speaking about his support of gay marriage and reminding me to check in on this thread
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LindaL (Jun 2, 2009)

Keeping religion out of the equation...and talking about BASIC rights...would you deny me these rights (these are just a few)? WHY?

Right to make health care decision for partner

Right to visit partner in hospital

Right to sue for wrongful death

Right to consent or refuse autopsy of partner's body

Right to be buried in cemetery plot with partner

Right to make funeral arrangements for partner

Right to inherit deceased partner's estate

Right to visit in long-term care facility

Automatic "authorized driver" on partner's car rental

Right to coverage on partner's insurance plan

Protection of home in the case of partner's bankruptcy

Private conversations are protected in court

Right to access partner's death certificate

Right to personal effects from deceased partner's body


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## miniwhinny (Jun 2, 2009)

LindaL said:


> Right to make health care decision for partner Right to visit partner in hospital
> 
> Right to sue for wrongful death
> 
> ...


I wouldn't. I'm straight and as far as I know I don't know any homosexuals (yup...small redneck town we retired to!) BUT I would never deny any human being the SAME basic rights that others get...that's just wrong, period. To me it's as backwards and WRONG as making someone who has different colored skin use a different bathroom or ride a different bus.


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## TripleDstables (Jun 2, 2009)

*miniwhinny*



> TripleDstables...
> THANK DOG !!!!!!!!!!! At last a thinking human YAHOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOoooo BRAVO for EVERYTHING you just said
> 
> "what another human brave enough to admit that you really DON'T hear voices in your head other than your own mind thinking"


lol. Thank you miniwhinny.





I also see that a lot of religious people are against gay marriage, and I guess thats why I went off a little. Even at 16, I have a good sense of... what makes sense.



Having a problem with something that doesn't effect me... well that just doesn't make sense... who am I to tell them it isn't right? Go for it. Whatever makes you happy.


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## osu_barrelracer (Jun 2, 2009)

LindaL said:


> Keeping religion out of the equation...and talking about BASIC rights...would you deny me these rights (these are just a few)? WHY?
> Right to make health care decision for partner
> 
> Right to visit partner in hospital
> ...


My wife and I are both finishing up college (haha we've each changed our major SEVERAL times...we're long term seniors




). Normal couples our age that are married, are eligible for a lot of different scholarships and government grants. Do you know the financial burden we have, both of us being full time students? But, because we are a homosexual couple, we aren't eligable for that help.


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## Marty (Jun 3, 2009)

Gee whiz, just checking the board and found this 7 pager and just had to see what was going on.

Getting back to the original subject of gay marriage...........

OK my 60's hippy LOVE & PEACE has just kicked in again. Sorry but old habits die hard.

I don't care if you are gay or the Purple People Eater, what the world always needs is LOVE. There just never is enough of it.

Why would I or anyone care if gays were married is beyond me. Gay marriage does not affect me and my year end taxes so why is this even an issue? The way I figure it is I care about what is going on in my house and in no one elses. Don't we all have enough to deal with in our own homes than to dictate who can love and marry who? Gays are people too, human beings that have every right to LOVE and LIVE anyone they care to and if they want to be bound by marriage, so what? Its no skin off anyone's nose.

LOVE LOVE LOVE AWAY......EVERYONE!

Yes I still wear tye dye tee shirts and a headband half the time


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## wcr (Jun 3, 2009)

I'm with you Marty. Let's both put on our tie dyed shirts and headbands and protest. Everyone has the right to their opinion and to live their lives in whatever way makes them happy. Linda has a very valid point about the inequality to the same benefits married couples can access. I am heterosexual and live in a committed relationship but don't have the same benefits as a married couple. Marriage is just a legal process and says nothing about how we live our lives. It is getting better as I can now be on my partners insurance but it still has a long way to go.

Miniwhinny- I can agree with many of your points and can see how passionate you are about your beliefs. Reading your posts the thought hit me that you have swung so far left you are now standing on the right. I have a real problem with organized religion and believe that the bible shouldn't be believed on a word by word basis that some religions base their beliefs by. It is a book supposedly written by several different people on their view of what happened.

One thing religion and the bible does give us is a blueprint to live our lives and a HOPE of better things to come if we live our lives that way. You see it in dying patients that hope is the last thing to go. Anything that gives us hope and tells us to love each other can't be too bad.


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## AppyLover2 (Jun 3, 2009)

I have to admit that before reading these posts I hadn't given a whole lot of thought to the "basic rights" that these couples are being denied. I've always felt that who people choose to love was none of my business. I'm friends with two same sex couples....both of them have been together a whole lot longer than about 99% of the hetrosexual couples I know.


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