# A question for those ready to hang this "trainer"



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

I am just curious and NOT flaming anyone for there opinions but.. first off how many made comments about sueing and reading to hang this trainer and really how many of us knew all the facts?

How many were there and HEARD IT as opposed to hearing it from someone who heard from someone else and so on?

How many of you personally have thought about protesting a horse you were SURE you could beat? At your local shows those that seem larger but might be less show quality?

How many would react a bit different if it was someone from here that everyone knew? If that was the case how many would have waited to hear the other side of the story before being ready to torch them?

How many have thought that the reason we hear about the same few trainers and handlers alot could just very well be that they have some of the top horses and do very very well and come by it as honestly as anyone else does meaning iwth good and bad.

I wasnt there I cant say what happened I do know what I would have done personally and that would have been handled it differently with the knowledge of my trainer -that may be right or wrong but I do know how often when it is one of our own here being bashed... others will defend and say to the flamers how on earth can you say this with out all the facts how is this different cause they are our friends?

I am not taking sides just questions I thought of alot all day yesterday


----------



## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

Can someone tell me who this trainer is?

I read most of the other thread, and when i read what Angel said, that did strike a chord with me. If I understood what she said, the client filed the protest w/o his/her trainer knowing a protest was being filed.... That doesn't feel like the right way to handle it to me. I'm not saying a protest should not have been filed (not saying anything on it, I bet there's more to it than I know), but the trainer's the one going into the ring and putting his or her face right out there. I think that the trainer should have been informed about the intention to file the protest prior to it being filed. When I have have had people who have been trainers or similar for me, I feel like it's a partnership and I would not do something that important without discussing it.

I have clients of my own, though nothing to do with horses. Still, I can just imagine how I would feel (betrayed for a start...) if my client didn't at least let me hear what was on their mind when it is something this important. I would not want to get the word the same time as outsiders to our relationship.

On the measuring, I like most of us know that a lot of it seems to have to do with the conversation at the point of measuring. I've only seen it at local registered shows but I saw the height divisions on the AMHR results and then seeing difference at the AMHA's like 2 weeks later when horses don't shrink. Yeah, it makes me wonder.


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

I fully agree Jill... it is a form of betrayl the way I look at it to.

Instead of looking at it like it is a elite club that is sticking togther.. why not look at it as we would in our own lives. Professionals that need to work togther on a very regular basis not saying protests shouldnt be done if you feel they need to be but .. if you are trusting your horse with a trainer or for all we know a catch handler which would make it different for me as well..

But anyway just like I think my own feeling it is a matter of respect and professional courtesy to inform the trainer/handler you are going to do this so I think this was lacking and I know in my own buisness professional respect and courtesey go an awful long way.


----------



## Belinda (Oct 11, 2005)

I can honestly say I was there !! It was not a very nice situation . And the horse should have been shown. The trainer had been prepaid for Nationals so he had a job to do.

Trainers do not own their clients !!! I have been training for over 35 years. I do not always like what my clients say or do , but they are people and we can not control their every move. Therefore I do not believe people should hold the Trainer accountable for what a client does !!!! And that leaves open that he should have completed the job he was paid for. He made the statement he was standing up for all trainers !!! Well I did not ask him to stand up for me. All those trainers will not be there when you can not pay your light bill, and when you don't have money for Food,, You know who will be there ?? YOUR CLIENTS







they are the ones that put the food on your table, not the other trainers..

It might have been different had the owner done something under handed or harmful , but these people just did something that they thought was right, and guess what they were right. !!! So now they are the ones that get punished for doing the right thing and something that most did not have the back bone to do





And last this is just my opinion and I don't even really know the people that protested but had few words with them during the class their horse SHOULD have been in. They in no way wanted to cause harm to anyone just wanted a even playing field... Matter of fact said they would not even pursue anything due to the fact that life was to short and they will just write this up to expensive lesson !!!

Belinda


----------



## Bess Kelly (Oct 11, 2005)

Personally, I had no comment on "the trainer" situation.

BUT, having once had a trainer



I can say that I often discussed such show issues with them. I would have advised that I was filing a protest but, it probably would not have made a difference as to my decision to do so. On the flip side, if this was the ONLY reason for not then taking a clients horse into the ring, then there would be a great deal of concern for that decision as the trainer was hired to do this function.

None of us know the full spectrum of the situation. In my opinion, I feel the statements made were not made against anyone personally but, the entity in general.......and the "related" happening.

Mostly, I see that the majority feels a trainer should not quit their job at such a critical moment based on what a client did -- which did not include him or directly impact him (ie. not pay them, slander them). If the protested animal was being handled by another trainer and that other trainer made aggressive threats, that is not only poor sportsmanship but possibly unlawful.

Now, if the horse being protested were being handled by the SAME trainer









wouldn't that be a panic ?

As with most situations, the actual facts are probably quite different than we hear. So, let's not get our undies in a knot. Keep it civil.


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

Bess Kelly said:


> As with most situations, the actual facts are probably quite different than we hear. So, let's not get our undies in a knot.  Keep it civil.
> 
> 482729[/snapback]
> ​


That was the thing bothering me most as I thought about it


----------



## Teresa (Oct 11, 2005)

Go, Bess.


----------



## lyn_j (Oct 11, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]I only said in the other thread that If I paid a trainer to finish the job I would expect he would do that and if he didnt I would feel screwed by him. I am in total agreement with Belinda who was there. It doesnt matter who the trainer is .... if they are prepaid for a specific job then, even if I protested someone elses horses measurement, I am paying him to show my horse not stick up for another trainer who in this case was wrong! The clients are the ones that pay for the bread and butter. IF the other trainer with the over sized horse would now "owe" this trainer favors at a later show.....that is even more disheartening. That sounds like the mindset of "trainers have to stick together".[/SIZE]

Lyn


----------



## Frankie (Oct 11, 2005)

As I have read this thread and the others, what I find most difficult to understand, is some of the responses.

I sure hope any one who responses, reads ALL of the other threads. Some people responded to what others THOUGHT, it wasn't facts, but was read that way. Then others responded from that thinking it was facts, then on and on. So a few things are being thrown out there and aren't actual facts. If you go through and read all the threads, you will see where that is happening, will also see that is where a few folks get more upset.

I so hate 3rd hand crap and people responding to that. Or the, "Well, if I had been there" type situations. I am referring to the actual event here. I know some can relate and respond because they have used trainers.

JMO: As members of the AMHA, It is our responsiblity to BE GOOD MEMBERS. What you do will depend on what that means to you.


----------



## LaVern (Oct 11, 2005)

Is it true that this trainer is also a judge? If so, he should know the rules.


----------



## Frankie (Oct 11, 2005)

> IF the other trainer with the over sized horse would now "owe" this trainer favors at a later show.....that is even more disheartening. That sounds like the mindset of "trainers have to stick together".


I have to say this is not a fair statement. A lot of people do know who that "other trainer" is. You do not know his/her "mindset" and unless you know this to be true first hand from experience with that trainer, I think unfair to make an assumption.

And yes I know you said, "IF", but I still do not believe it is fair to speak FOR this trainer and what he/she may be thinking. JMO


----------



## LaVern (Oct 11, 2005)

You know the more I get thinking about this the less I care about who the trainer that was maybe naughty.

What I do care about is WHO was the trainer who knowingly put the protested horse in the wrong class. And what was the name of the person that measured so far off.


----------



## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

If you read those other threads - you will note that as in THIS thread... many of us could care less WHO said trainer was who walked out on showing that horse...

We were/are concerned about this as an _action_... and how unprofessional it was. As many have said - a trainer is contracted to present the client's horses. And not showing a horse at the big event of the year - at the last minute.... well, it gives one pause. Ditto for the other trainer who got the disputed horse into the smaller class. It has been a discussion of *ethics* (for me anyway) - and not a focus on any individual...


----------



## Kim (Oct 11, 2005)

I do understand the concern about 'going behind your trainer's back', but for me, the issue is not so much about the client-trainer relationship, rather it is one of honesty and integrity. By implying that someone should ask the "permission" of their trainer before filing a protest against someone who they know is blatantly breaking the rules, you are in fact implicitly propogating the current status quo - don't ask, don't tell.

Why would an honest trainer get bent out of shape that someone (regardless of whether it was one of his clients or not) filed a height protest? If there is no justification for the protest and there is nothing to hide, so what? Nothing happens except the protester loses his or her 50 bucks. If there is a justification, and the protest is successful, someone who has broken the rules gets caught, and honesty and integrity is promoted--which *should be* a desirable outcome, at least for all but those who want to continue subverting the spirit and intent of the rules which have been put in place to, at least theoretically, try to ensure an even playing field for all.

If someone notices that a clear 28-30 inch horse is being shown in a 28 & under class, it is their every right to protest and let the show committee deal with it. People should not be blacklisted for protesting. What is the point of the rules if everyone is â€˜afraidâ€™ of enforcing them for fear of upsetting the powers that be? In the end, this attitude is only detrimental to our industry and to our organization because the masses will slowly drift away from showing toward other endeavors if they feel that there is not at least a semi-level playing field. Just look at how National/World entries are decreasing year after year â€“ itâ€™s a valid concern that does need to be addressed.


----------



## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

*Kim - EXCELLENT post*..... and one many should re-read a few times. You summed up how I feel about this_ exactly_.... only you expressed it better...





I note how quickly some here are also (not knowing the facts as they have pointed out) deciding that the owner was disrespectful etc. ... without considering all the variables... the time factor... how busy their trainer was with his other horses... etc. But dang it - THEY were in the wrong??? ... _one needs to consider *all* sides of a situation..._

_*sigh*_


----------



## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

I may be looking at this weird, but what I think is that whatever went on between the trainer and the client, that only effects that trainer and that client and we do not know the ins and outs of their relationship, and who betrayed who first (I think to file a protest without the trainer knowing is really off...).

There is not anything any registry can do to govern the business relationship between a trainer and a client. These trainers are not registry certified or approved. They are business men and women.

What does effect all of us is the situation with inconsistent measuring.


----------



## lyn_j (Oct 11, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]I said IF because it was a hypothetical question not an actual question because I know that has happened before. I have no idea who that trainer is that put the horse in the wrong class.... Im hoping that it was just a mistake not intentional but I have been in this game long enough to know what goes on. I used to be a steward so I was around the inner circle. It wasnt a judgement placed on that trainer, just a question from observations in the past.[/SIZE]

Lyn


----------



## Boinky (Oct 11, 2005)

ok i've been reading these posts. I'm not a memeber of AMHA but here's a thought..NOT blaming anyone as i was not there.. BUT first off.. i find it very disturbing that AMHA does not allow proxy voting for there members (many clubs..including the largest single breed dog registry allow's for members to vote on MAJOR issues so that everyone gets a say by mail). that you HAVE to be at the meetings. That in itself seems to be slightly elitist. Not everyone (infact probably not a majority of people) can afford to buy plane tickets, hotels and just take off time from work to go to each and every meeting across the country. that leaves it open for those that can afford it which sadly enough is the very small minority of the membership. Secondly. This stuff is happening. we all know it is.... you all want to make a differnce but don't know how. Why don't the mini community join together and form a "union" of sorts (not really a part of either club..). do fund raisers to earn money to FIGHT with when you feel the cause is wanranted! have union reps that look out for hte intrest of the "people" not the "elite" few that will go to these functions and make it known. The money can also go towards fighting legally if needed to help straighten up the AMHA (and AMHR if nessasary). Apparently from what i've read and i'm sure not all of it is true..the registry's take their own stand weather it's what the membership wants or not..so why not have an independent union formed by the membership that will look out for the intrests and fight legally or just have mediation with the clubs to solve problems?? just a thought..perhaps not a lodgical one..but a start! You need a independent party looking out for the best intrests of the membership..not the club which seems to sometimes have their own agenda and looks out for the finacial intrests even if it means breaking rules (which seems to have been suggested..and no one had a solution for soliving it. ).


----------



## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

For the record, I did not mean to imply I think someone should have a trainer's permission to file a protest. However, I think it's not very considerate or insightful to file the protest w/o giving the trainer a heads up. I would just not ever handle it that way because I do see the trainer / owner situation that you are both aiming for a common goal so I wouldn't act on my own without letting the trainer know AND hearing his or her perspective. And, I do think there's more than we can know and those of us who were not involved probably are projecting things we suspect or guess, but don't really know.


----------



## minimomNC (Oct 11, 2005)

This is totally from my own mind, not indicating that I know anything that happened.

What if the story were changed, the client went to the trainer told them of their intentions and the trainer told them if they protest, then their horse wouldn't be shown either. What would you do then?

Would you protest anyway and not have your horse shown or would you forget the protest and let the horse that was in the wrong size class go ahead and show in that class. Would you hope to find someone that could show the horse if thats possible so close to the class time?

What would you do?


----------



## Kim (Oct 11, 2005)

Jill said:


> (I think to file a protest without the trainer knowing is really off...)


If I was in the same situation, out of courtesy, I likely would have discussed this with the trainer beforehand - not to get his blessing, but to alert him beforehand as to what I was going to do. However, as Tagalong stated above, we don't know all the circumstances, and there may have been factors that prevented the client from doing so, such as whether the trainer was even avaiable to the client at the time.

Again, however, what I am not completely understanding - and maybe you could elaborate on your above comment - is WHY the issue of a person protesting another horse's height concerns that person's trainer, at least in more than a peripheral sense. As I stated in my previous post, why would an honest trainer care if someone protested, even if they were unaware beforehand that that person was going to protest? If there is no substance to the protest, it will not be successful. Period.

I can see how a trainer might be up in arms if one of his clients was condoning BREAKING a rule, but why would an honest trainer care that one of his clients was trying to make sure that the rules were enforced? It should not be necessary to get your trainer's permission to act with integrity.


----------



## Mini_Bre (Oct 11, 2005)

Not meaning to be rude but....

Why do we care?

Whatever went on is the client and the trainers buisness not ours.


----------



## Belinda (Oct 11, 2005)

I am posting this response for the people that filed the protest , only because she wrote and ask me to , because she is not a member of Lil Beginnings and can not post on here at this time.. ..

No one really knows what they would do in a deal like this until you are face to face with it , and who knows things might be a lot different when you are the one faced with this... Spectulation is great but not always right !!!

Belinda

____________________________________________________________________

Hi Belinda,

I have been watching the comments on LilBeg. I am not

a member, but I do enjoy reading topics on there.

I would appreciate it if you could do something for me.

First of all, I don't want to open up who we are because

we went thru enough at the show and I don't need any

more. I very much appreciate your comments in support

since you were there and did understand what was happening.

I would like to tell the facts so that this can come to a rest and

people don't have to speculate. So if you would post what

I have to say I would appreciate it.

****************************************************************************************************************************************

Like many others we want to enhance our program by showing

our horse. A very successful trainer asked to show our stallion

this year and we agreed. The stallion has been in training since

May. The horse has worked hard and we spent a great deal of

money in anticipation of seeing him in the show ring. The trainer

did a fabulous job with him. He looked absolutely gorgeous, the

best he has ever been.

At the show so many people were complaining about the "too tall"

horses in certain classes. This isn't something new, but apparently

people didn't want to take the risk to speak up.

In the premium show book the only horses listed in a class are the

early entries. Therefore until the close of entries at the show, horses

can be moved into different classes. I am not sure how that works

since my belief was that they have to qualify for a particular class.

Our horse was to show on Saturday and we were able to look at

an updated listed from the show office. Three horses from the

taller class moved down into the smaller class.

I asked in the AMHA office about protesting because that is what

their rules say you are entitled to do. They said many people had

asked about protesting, but had decided against doing so because of

repercussions. Now I know what they meant.

However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn't

have any information on, but an individual who knew the horse said

he would easily measure in. With no further information on him we let

that one go. The second horse had been showing in the taller class all

year, winning many grands, however the owner told me he was only 1/2"

over. Most people can trim hooves, etc. to take care of that.

So we let that horse go which was a mistake since his permanent papers

show a height of 29 1/2" on record at AMHA.

The third horse had not only been showing all year in the taller class,

but

had won a championship at one of the Regional Shows. It was listed

in the MHW current issue. The facts were right there. So we did

protest and paid our $50. They called Michael Want into the office and

he had them do a print out on the computer showing where the horse had

been shown all year. He then called the owner into the office. She came

in with the trainers wife. They decided to have the horse measured at

that

time. The horse measured at 29 1/2". They asked for another measurement

so it was done from the other side at 29 1/4". It was all video taped

and

done according to the rules. No problem with the way AMHA dealt with it.

However, the trainers wife asked who our horse was and what trainer he

was with.

I will tell you what I personally saw, or heard for myself, and what came

from others. We had no intention to hurt any owners, horses, &/or

trainers

and still don't. We just wanted to get things fair and stop the cheating

that

goes on when many people, not just us, have experienced the same thing.

The problem is too many people just want to complain and talk about

others,

but don't want to step up and do what the rules say to do.

Something I also want to clear up is why we didn't speak to our trainer

before the protest. We talked about needing to speak to him and then

we realized that by the time all facts were in place he was in the show

ring with classes back to back. We didn't believe that it would be fair

to

him to drop this on him while he was concentrating on other owners

horses.

We also felt that this way there would be no repercussions towards him

since he was not involved in any way of the protest and had no knowledge

of it. Wrong....

~To our knowledge~ the other trainers wife confronted our trainer while

he

was in the show ring. Then the trainer himself confronted him at the gate

while they were waiting to go into the class. ~ I personally was not

there~,

but all those waiting with them heard the exchange. That is when the

topic of trainers sticking together came up. We are not talking about

speaking to another person with respect and professionalism.

That is all I will say since I didn't actually hear them myself, but they

had

no right to come after our trainer. Obviously the horse was over, they

knew it was over, since it had been in that class all year even winning a

championship.

We can fully understand why our trainer was upset. The point is that we

had every right to protest according to AMHA rules without repercussion

to us, or our trainer.

Then we were told that our trainer was not going to show our horse. We

went to the stall area where Michael Want was present with our trainer.

Our trainer was very upset, one being because we didn't speak to him

first, which I explained, and tried to explain to him. The other being

his

fear of other trainers coming down on him. He refused to take our horse

in and left the area. This was 15 minutes before the class started.

We had to watch our horses class being shown, with many tears from me.

You wait so long and look forward to that time when you see

them in the ring. Try to imagine yourself doing what you think is right,

and following the rules of AMHA, and then you go home without even

seeing your horse out there.

The class went from 11 to 9, so all of the other horses received a top

ten. Both of the other horses that had dropped down into the class

received top honors. It was really difficult for us knowing the truth.

We had many people thank us for having the horse measured and for

doing what they felt was right. I am hoping that our loss will encourage

others, who have just talked amongst themselves, to step forward and

make a difference in this measuring issue.

The other focus should be on these horses that are shown all year in

a taller class and dropped down to get the win. I was not our intention

to maneuver the class to help our horse place, he could have placed on

his own qualities. This was our last year we were sending him out, so

it is all a loss to us emotionally and financially. It is very easy to

look

at the show results on line, or in your MHW, to see who showed all

year in the taller classes and then did "their" strategic move to

maneuver

the class.

As for the trainer, I can say that we have no bitterness towards him. We

understand his reason for being upset by way he was confronted. My

understanding is that he is going to call us when he gets home and we

hope that he will offer to make things right. Sometimes we all make

snap judgements and wish later that we had done things differently.

I am not excusing him for refusing to take our horse in, we can never

change that. It does concern me that this could happen to anyone

even at the last minute. I hope that none of you ever have to experience

what we went through, but I would still stand up for what I know is the

right thing to do. When you compromise your integrity is eventually

catches

up with you. We all make mistakes, including me, so I am in no way

trying to be critical of any others involved. Let's all try to make it

right.

Thank you for the support on this subject. I wanted to let everyone

know the facts, and not have to speculate. I choose not to use our

names since we have gone through enough at this time, but we will

be supportive in getting these changes made. For all others involved

in this situation I choose not to post any names or information. They

will have to decide what is best for them.

**********************************************************


----------



## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

minimomNC said:


> This is totally from my own mind, not indicating that I know anything that happened.
> What if the story were changed,  the client went to the trainer told them of their intentions and the trainer told them if they protest,  then their horse wouldn't be shown either.  What would you do then?
> 
> Would you protest anyway and not have your horse shown  or would you forget the protest and let the horse that was in the wrong size class go ahead and show in that class.  Would you hope to find someone that could show the horse if thats possible so close to the class time?
> ...


I think I'd be changing into some show clothes if it was important to me to file the protest. I'd rather do it that way, by far, than blindside my trainer... what's a hobby for me is a career for him / her.


----------



## Minimor (Oct 11, 2005)

I so agree with Kim on this. She expressed my thoughts on this very clearly!






And minimom asked the question I was thinking about. If the owner told the trainer about the intention to file a protest, & the trainer gave them the ultimatum that if they want him to show their horse they have to NOT file a protest against the other horse/trainer....then

1) if the owner files anyway, who is wrong then? The trainer for insisting they do the "wrong" thing & then refusing to show their horse? Or the owner, for going against their trainer to do the "right" thing?

2) if the owner caves in to the trainer's pressure & does not file the protest, are you saying that is right?

It appears to me that some/many here are condoning the practice of putting horses into the wrong height division. Turning a blind eye to those that break the rules is IMO not the right thing to do.

You know what I think is funny? So many people spout off about how smaller is better, all else being equal the smaller horse should win over the bigger horse...but in spite of that, a number of people are wanting to put their taller horses into the smaller classes. If smaller horses are preferable over bigger horses (conformation being equal)...shouldn't ya being trying to get horses into the taller classes?? So that they're the smallest in the class, rather than the tallest??? It's fast becoming a joke I think.


----------



## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

Kim said:


> Jill said:
> 
> 
> > (I think to file a protest without the trainer knowing is really off...)
> ...



What I feel as to WHY the trainer should be informed about a protest being filed, is that the person is filing a protest relating to a class the trainer is presenting "my horse" in. He or she is the person that is going to be thought of as part of the protest by most people, and very involved with the consequences of the protest. I think that the trainer should get a heads up.

It's not supposed to be an adversarial relationship between trainer and client. If my trainer didn't want me to protest and after I heard why and I still wanted to, I would feel like basically I was choosing to sever the relationship by filing the protest. No matter how right the protest may have been, there are still consequences.

Again, it's not that I feel the trainer needed to approve of the protest, but should have known before everyone else did because the trainer really is the one out there in public and has to deal with the consequences.

And, really, what the trainer chose to do regarding the client's actions is between the trainer and the client. That, to me, is a non-issue for us really. It's the measuring difficulties and the attitude that a protest isn't going to be heard that is a concern.


----------



## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

Maybe a big part of what I am saying in like 1,000,000 words is that how can you expect to have a continued relationship with a trainer when you didn't give him / her the curtesy of knowing before hand that there was going to be TROUBLE / CONTROVERSY for him and his peers. It has nothing to do with whether it's right or not to have protested, but why would you do it without letting your front man know?


----------



## horsehug (Oct 11, 2005)

Belinda,

Thank you so much for posting that for the person whose little horse did not get shown.

I truly admire her integrity and honesty more than I can express!!

Susan O.


----------



## Minimor (Oct 11, 2005)

Thank you for the posting Belinda; I for one appreciate hearing the owners account of what happened. I applaud her/them for standing up for what is right. In her place, when the other trainers wife demanded to know who my horse/trainer is, I'd have refused to say.


----------



## lyn_j (Oct 11, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]I dont condone the trainer dumping his clients horse from the class but the ones that really area abominable are the trainer and wife of the other horse! Whoever you are, thank you for giving us the facts and I certainly respect your annonymity. Reprocussions do abound in the industry.[/SIZE]

Lyn


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

Ok well

I never said anything about asking permisson i said discuss - there is a difference to me. I know that some people involved in this.. were arguing not just about the one horse who was bumped back up but others as well could this be sour grapes PERHAPS.. is there a very good chance that a horse could legitmatley show in going with my own experience here 34 and under all year and then go OVER at nationals or vice versa so many things can come into play when discussing the difference of 1/4 in or so.. could be as simple as the weight of the horse most of us have had very fat horses measure bigger due to there weight

There are 2 sides to EVERY story let us all remember that and of course we can always find ways to skew either side so really there are 3 , each persons and then the actual reality.

Bottom line is.. seems ONLY ONE HORSE was protested not the rest and then after all was said and done.. complaining went rampant could that have something to do with who won and who didnt? Maybe maybe not I can not assume to know the motives of anyone but to come back and complain about so many being over after all was said and done doesnt seem fair to me - but then again i wasnt involved

Either way this has gotten very ugly IMO

and Minimor that has also been my thought from the get go

cant figure out who to quote somethjing this far down in the post but you said

You know what I think is funny? So many people spout off about how smaller is better, all else being equal the smaller horse should win over the bigger horse...

A good horse is a good horse and really one who flucuates in measuring within .25 of a inch is VERY normal and yes sometimes even .50 an inch can mean the horse was more tense, handler more tense you can measure a horse 100 times a day and come up with different measurements..

I dont know any parties personally but please lets keep in mind one persons perspective doesnt make it any more or less fact it makes it there own perspective and experience..

there experience is great and still doesnt mean a horse that measured 28.25 at one show and at this one 28 was done by cheating and dishonest practices or measures it can mean simply that it is a NORMAL fluxuation and in fact I would bet has happened to many of us ourselves during the show year.. wouldyou want any of your wins to be clouded with the word CHEATER or UNFAIRor UNDESERVED

just something to think about again this is a small part of the issue but is part of the complaints none the less.


----------



## Frankie (Oct 11, 2005)

Thanks for the post Belinda.

Although the protest has cost them $50, and much much more. A person who has this courage and honesty will be repaid a million times over.





I have got to say, if others had done it before her, may be different now. But now that she has, I hope you gain strenght from it, to do the same thing. Very unselfish act.


----------



## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

I just read how it happened from the clients' perpective, and I can imagine how it could happen as explained, and how at the spur of the moment they made the choices they did. I can also imagine how I would feel to have the rug yanked out from under me at the show I'd day dreamed about all season. What a mess



I hate how the politics of showing horses gets and I'm sorry it went the way it did. Maybe some kind of better system will come about because of what has happened. Maybe protestor's identity can be held in confidence some way? There should be a way to have it go a lot better and less confrontational than it did.


----------



## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

THANK YOU Belinda... for presenting the owner/protest filer's side of things....



> I asked in the AMHA office about protesting because that is what their rules say you are entitled to do. *They said many people had*
> 
> asked about protesting, but had decided against doing so because of
> 
> repercussions. Now I know what they meant.


How sad is that - that doing the RIGHT THING brings you grief....



> Something I also want to clear up is why we didn't speak to our trainerbefore the protest. We talked about needing to speak to him and then
> 
> we realized that by the time all facts were in place he was in the show
> 
> ...


*That ^^^* was what I suggested may have been the case earlier... backstage at any big show is a chaotic scramble at the best of times...



> Our trainer was very upset, one being because we didn't speak to himfirst, which I explained, and tried to explain to him. *The other being*
> 
> his
> 
> ...


And thus the ethics question - does one do what is right??? Or what keeps you safe.... we all have our own answers to that... and handle it in our own way...



> I hope that none of you ever have to experiencewhat we went through, but I would still stand up for what I know is the
> 
> right thing to do. When you compromise your integrity it eventually
> 
> ...


Well said...



> Thank you for the support on this subject. I wanted to let everyone know the facts, and not have to speculate. I choose not to use our
> 
> names since we have gone through enough at this time, but we will
> 
> ...


Thank you for stepping up to the plate when so many would rather not stir the pot.

You DID do the right thing... how sad that it came back at you in such a negative way... (((HUGS)))

And shame on the " 29 1/2" trainer" for going after _anyone_... for _him_ doing what is simply against the rules. If only all the horses that skipped merrily down in many classes had been protested in the same way....

ETA: *Lisa* - yes - a half inch or a quarter inch here and there bumps horses easily from one class to another at times....it happens all the time... for instance a horse on the "edge" at 30" could easily go up or down depending on the measurement that day... but when one gets to an inch and half - or even two... _*shrug*_... it is not so easily ignored...

Yes - _all things being equal_ - the smallest horse wins. But as the horses get taller and leggier - they also tend to get more refined and proportionate. Thus dropping down a class benefits the taller horses... as we all know.

Frankly - I see nothing wrong with discussing this issue.... everything gets swept under the rug far too often...


----------



## Becky (Oct 11, 2005)

Thank you Belinda for your posts on this matter and I agree with you 100%. Also thank the owner for coming forward with the information as to how all of this evolved.

I was one of the people that inquired about filing a protest before the above owner ever did and how it would work right before a class entered. I was basically told by Michael Want that I couldn't do that. That subject horse to be protested had to have 1 hours notice prior to entering the ring (although it doesn't say that in the rule book. I was told it was 'policy') and that if he wanted to, he would call a committe meeting and vote me down. I was also told that they wouldn't stop the show for a protest. He wanted me to file a protest right there on the spot but I told him I couldn't do that without visually seeing the entries for the class to determine which one(s) might be oversize. That is when I wanted to determine who to protest as I felt there could be a horse(s) that were oversize. Needless to say, I was unable to follow through.

I personally saw and heard the two trainers involved in a very heated discussion right before a class entered the ring and it wasn't pretty. Everything that has been posted regarding the incident is true as I heard it coming straight out of the trainer's mouths.

Again, the bottom line on the threads on this subject is about measuring and ethics. Nobody measures the same and 1/4" surely is easy to measure one way or the other, but 1" - 1 1/2"? Give me a break!


----------



## nootka (Oct 11, 2005)

When I first read the thread, I didn't care about knowing who the trainer was, the client, the horse, anything about it, and I didn't feel I had enough completely, irrefutable and reliable information to make a good, sound judgment on it.

I hear enough crazy things about various people within the industry, many of whom I consider good friends/acquaintances, and I have to take them with a grain of salt until evidence starts piling up that is truly reliable and trustworthy (usually my own eyes and ears and I have even made mistakes in that regard).

I probably shouldn't have responded to this thread because I am not one who wanted to "lynch the trainer" just because I don't know what truly happened, in every respect.

I would still love to hear a complete recount of what happened, from people without an axe to grind (as in owned the horse or closely involved w/the trainer, etc.).

I think it IS unfortunate how much of it came about, and it is a deeply flawed feature of our breed and showing.

I LOVE showing, and I'm willing to put up with some of the crap that comes along with it, but when it gets too deep, I feel I need to step in, but only if I have something that is worthwhile to say or protest about.

Liz M.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Oct 11, 2005)

Liz, go to the previous page here and you will find the entire story from the owner of the horse who wishes to remain anonymous and had a member post her words to us.


----------



## SunQuest (Oct 11, 2005)

Tagalong,

My thoughts exactly.





Again, it is really a black and white issue with me....

The rules were not being followed and the client has every right, *NO, in fact as a member of AMHA has the DUTY *to call attention to the corruption of OUR registery's official shows. Yep... It is OUR registery and we are all responsible for how it is run. We all have the responsability to keep this registery on the up and up whether it is a little show or the biggest most important show that the registery sponsors.

I apploud the client for doing what was right.



Yes, it cost that client a lot more than just the $50.00, but it is about time that people start doing what is right and calling the bluff of those that are sidestepping the system, otherwise one becomes a party to the ill effects of that rule bending.

As far as the trainer being angry??? Well, yes it would have been better handled if that trainer knew in advance so that the trainer wasn't blindsided, but the situation did not allow that to happen at that time (which many of us thought was most likely the case). Still, it is my opinion that the trainer had no moral or legal reason to not stand behind their promise to show this horse. There were no laws or rules broken from the client's side of things that excuse the unprofessional behavior of this trainer IMO. All of this should have been settled between the trainers and the clients after the show and again, if the trainer wanted to protect their hide from reprocussions, that trainer could easily have dropped that client from their list of people for the following year and not had any ill effects from that trainer's peers.


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

again i am not flaming the person who filed the complaint my question is it is clear in there own words they felt 3 horses were OVERSIZE and are SURE OF IT so then why protest only one? if going to do the right thing and make it a fair playing ground why not have done all 3? why wait till the show is over and say the 2 other wons who i assume did well were oversize as well

just wondering and more thoughts on the issue


----------



## Danielle_E. (Oct 11, 2005)

> I think I'd be changing into some show clothes if it was important to me to file the protest. I'd rather do it that way, by far, than blindside my trainer... what's a hobby for me is a career for him / her


I was surprised to say the least when I read *"than blindside my trainer"*.

I am afraid the only people I have any respect for here are the owners who put the protest in. What is shows me is the trainer who refused to show the horse because of the problems it would cause "him" in all of this is NOT what I call a good ambassador to his/her profession because what it portrays to me is that trainers would rather stick together even if WRONG and doing something against the RULES. Gee, if trainers, officials and many owners try to bend the rules or don't enforce the rules what does that say to lets say a newcomer to the breed or a newcomer to the show world? It means if you want to play with the "big boys" you better be prepared to lie, cheat, etc. and if you any kind of conscience than this ain't the place for you, or you best learn to just shut-up and put up with it. How nice, NOT. The entire situation is disgusting and shows the greed of some to attain their own glorification. It really makes me quite sick to think about it. This trainer who refused to show their horse because of the protest they put on another horse/trainer/owner is no better than any trainer that would take a horse into a class when they darn well know they don't belong there - same cat different stripes is all.

Well it only goes to reinforce my personal feelings toward the registry and why I decided awhile back to go totally with the other....


----------



## Cathy_H (Oct 11, 2005)

> asked in the AMHA office about protesting because that is what their rules say you are entitled to do. They said many people had
> 
> asked about protesting, but had decided against doing so because of
> 
> repercussions. Now I know what they meant.


Thanks for verifying something some of us knew was happening. How immature & greedy on everyones part that does this.

I still fault AMHA for allowing this (these measuring disputes) to happen. So now it is LEFT up to to AMHA to make it known that measuring will from now on be more accurate so everyone be prepared...... If necessary let two people measure & split the difference... Everyone needs to be on the same page - Integrity at every level before everything starts falling apart like falling dominoes.................................................. To the owner of the horse I can only imagine how so disappointing this was for you. Thank you for telling your story & for standing up for what you knew was right. We can only hope that your courage will be contagious. Hopefully it will shame those that need to win at all costs in to having their horses placed in the correct class to begin with & stop the backstabbing selfish games.................. This incident & other happenings in the past tell me that the trainers & farms with money are running the show..................... One of my favorite sayings ----- " If money comes before friendship, what will you have left if you go bankrupt"?


----------



## Kim (Oct 11, 2005)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> again i am not flaming the person who filed the complaint my question is it is clear in there own words they felt 3 horses were OVERSIZE and are SURE OF IT so then why protest only one? if going to do the right thing and make it a fair playing ground why not have done all 3? why wait till the show is over and say the 2 other wons who i assume did well were oversize as welljust wondering and more thoughts on the issue
> 
> 482902[/snapback]
> ​


Below is the paragraph from the owner's email that addresses these questions--the reasoning makes pretty good sense to me. I applaud the owners for having the courage and integrity to do this, and it is too bad that they have suffered such serious repercussions for trying to ensure that the rules are followed.



> However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn'thave any information on, but an individual who knew the horse said
> 
> he would easily measure in. With no further information on him we let
> 
> ...


----------



## Linda K (Oct 11, 2005)

You know, I dont know alot about horses, BUT.....................

I am going to give MY OPINION on this........

First of all, if you have a horse that is right there, maybe a little over where they have been measuring in at and showing at, and you can trim their feet to keep them there. GREAT. no rules broke.

But, if you have a horse that has been showing in the taller classes all year and then you want to try and get them in a smaller class come nationals, for WHATEVER REASON, its just wrong. Why would you even want to do that. For a RIBBON ????????????

You have to live with decisions you make, and knowing how people might feel about you , as person. It would bother me , personally. I do not show. But my daughter Erica does, and she has had to move horses out and into different classes. Everyone works very hard to get to the point of going to nationals, including the "little guys". Everyone deserves a fair shake. Trainers too. Everyone , in every position, needs to do things on the up and up!

I know trainers, who have said at shows , "there picking who is at the lead",

WHY???????

Everyone pays the same amount of money.

Judges need to judge RIGHT! When a horse is getting measured, if it measures over, ............. well, its in the over class... sorry , thats just fair. If you can get some feet off and it measures in , well, ok.

no problem.

Problems wouldnt be so quick to happen , if people would do their jobs and be FAIR!

I feel really bad for this person. I know the trainer did alot of hard work also. As far as letting the trainer know you were filing a protest............. I really dont know how I feel.

I just know if the horse were measured in right to begin with , it would not have happened.

Belinda's right, it is the clients who keep the trainers in bussiness. Its up to the clients to let the trainers know up front that as much as they want to win, they want to win fairly. Or in this case, stand up for whats fair.

I would say some changes need to be made in different areas of showing.

I hope I get to make convention this year. Its up to us , as the people, to see things change, and to put people in the position of making that happen.

Like I said , I do not show, just was reading this topic and had my opinion about it

Congraulations, to all the winners and hats off to everyone who worked so hard.

Linda Killion


----------



## minisaremighty (Oct 11, 2005)

Thank you Belinda for sharing the owners email with us. In this day and age, I will ALWAYS respect ANYONE who has the courage to do what is morally and ethically right. In this case these owners did exactly that and they followed AMHA's own rules to do it. They didn't just stand around and complain about it like most everyone else did. They took action. If more people were as courageous as them, maybe this issue wouldn't occur again. What is truly sad is that when people do stand up for what is right, they have to suffer repercussions of doing so.






To me, the issue is not this particular case at hand, but the apparent overall issue of measurement and following the rules.

Before I go on, I have to say I do not show, but I dream of one day showing. The things I've heard about the AMHA World Show are VERY discouraging to me. I assume it will be challenging for a beginner to get into showing in the first place, but to hear that there are continuous problems from local shows all the way to the top with *MEASUREMENTS*, it is very disheartening. Is _*HEIGHT*_ not what AMHA is all about??? Seems to me to be an integral part of showing, being measured correctly and showed in the proper class. *If those rules are regularly being overlooked, it lessens the importance and significance of winning an AMHA title. *






_ Makes me seriously reconsider whether or not I will continue my dream of showing._


----------



## minimomNC (Oct 11, 2005)

Please do not think that because of this incident that the entire show was bad. It was our first World Show with our own horses and we had a great time. Our horses measured taller than they did at Eastern Regionals but all well within the size group we showed with all year. The one reason we stay with amateur and not go to much into open is that the height really doesn't matter as long as the horse measures for its age group, ie: two year olds can't go over 33".

I wasn't involved with this incident and didn't even know much about it until I got home. Our horses placed well for us, out of 12 classes we brought home 7 top tens and two of those were top fives. Yes the little person can show at the National level and do well. Our Sr Gelding actually placed 3rd in his amateur class. We were thrilled. So please don't think the entire show was run poorly, it wasn't. This is just one incident on the last day that shouldn't have ever happened in the first place. And I don't mean the protest shouldn't have been lodged I mean the measuring should have been more accurite.

No one can change the facts as they happened, its done. Now is the time to learn from this and change what happens in the future. And staying away from the show ring won't fix the problem. Maybe more of the little people showing their own horses will help it. Get out there and see what is going on at the small shows. If you are with a club putting on a show, make sure your measurer stands by the rules. Thats where this problem is going to be fixed. Post pictures of acceptable ways to stand the horse, post the rules that apply to measuring so if there is a conflict with how a horse is measured then the rules are right there. And make sure the measurer knows that the mane usually doesn't go to the middle of the horses back. The rules are in place, they just need to be used.


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

Kim said:


> > However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn'thave any information on, but an individual who knew the horse said
> >
> > he would easily measure in. With no further information on him we let
> >
> ...



My point simply was WHY SAY ANYTHING THEN.. how does that make the people who won that class feel? What is implied in that explanation to me it is implied the winner should NOT have won due to size issues when it isnt FACT

Why mention the other 2 horses you didnt protest AFTER THE FACT why not let it go period AFTER THE FACT

again i am not blaming nor flaming this person I am however questioning how the WINNER of that class would feel how many of us who have horses that have LEGITIMATELY moved up or down in a class how would we feel to be lumped in to this whole situation with no protest of course but the implication that there SHOULD HAVE BEEN ONE there.. that is all I am saying


----------



## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

> Before I go on, I have to say I do not show, but I dream of one day showing. The things I've heard about the AMHA World Show are VERY discouraging to me.


There have also been disputes at AMHR shows.... many top trainers show at both. I think it would be a good idea to address the measuring issues for BOTH registries and eliminate any "technical" differences... and make sure the rules are followed _everywhere_...

Pay attention to *minimomNC's* post...



... don' t let such things dissuade you - as many have fun and do well - even at the big year-end shows. Many big name trainers walked out of classes without a top ten placing... it is not always the person on the end of the leadline that makes the difference - but the actual _horse_.



_What a concept!! _

_*edited the rest so as not to repeat what others said in a more concise way...*_


----------



## faithfarm (Oct 11, 2005)

I've read all the comments on this issue and decided to join the forum to put in my two-cents. My horse won the 28-30 class and the protested horse came in Reserve. I know my horse is 30", I have measured him numerous times. The horse that was protested measured 28.5" at the Regionals and they were going to try to take some foot off of him before the World Show. I think he was probably legitamately measured at 28" on the initial measurement. He is considerably smaller than my horse and is not 29.5", no matter what he measured when protested.

I read the reasons why the other owner didn't protest the other 2 taller horses. I will not comment on the motives to only protest the best horse. I believe this situation was handled wrongly. The measurements are clearly posted days before they show and if a protest is to be filed it should be done with input from the handler. I had a similiar situation last year with a horse measuring down into my class. I discussed it with my trainer and he told me to go to the other trainer and owner and talk it over. The other owner volunteered to remeasure the horse and the issue was resolved. I agree that something should be done about the "official" measuring but protests are a last resort, communication should always be first.


----------



## Minimor (Oct 11, 2005)

Lisa, I believe one of the posts on one of these threads--I forget which one where & am not going to go back through them all to find it...someone implied that there were other horses in that class that should have been in the taller class, and so it was wondered why those were not protested, just the one was--that poster implied sour grapes, the horse most likely to win was the one that was protested (at least that's the implication I got from that one post, maybe I read it all wrong *shrugs*) In any case, I feel the owner here has explained how she chose to protest the one horse--that's why she said something about it, & I do feel that needed to be explained.

If a horse is within 1/2" of the height limit, well, to me 1/4 to 1/2" is an acceptable varience--I can measure a horse 3 times and get 34", 34.25" and 34.75" (& did, I have to take measurement #4 before I send in this gelding's permanent application! I think 34.25" is probably the right one



) But ya, that amount of difference can be accounted for by hoof trimming, maybe an "oops" when clipping & a bit of mane hair gets taken off (how to make a horse move up one height class until the mane grows back in



!)...but when it's 1.5" to 2" difference, that's no error. And that's where more protests should come into being.

As for how would "I" feel if it were implied that I shouldn't have won because I was in the wrong class....looking at your example here from my own personal perspective Lisa....if my horse were in that particular class fair & square, well, I know that I was where I belonged (or at least my horse was) & that I deserved the win, then anyone is welcome to say what they like. If I happened to be the sort of person that would put my horse into a smaller height class & my horse truly shouldn't have been in that class, well, then people wouldn't be wrong in saying things against my unfair win, would they?

But ya, anyone showing AMHR only & thinking this is only an AMHA problem should probably look closer. At our local AMHR show the steward is a real stickler for height--she measures accurately, no matter whose horse it is, and I dare say no owner would get away with convincing her to manipulate heights.

I've been told about one year at AMHR Nationals when one particular steward tried to measure accurately; she was bullied so badly by irate owners/trainers that she was in tears. (As I recall, her stand on accuracy was not supported by those in charge--I could be wrong on this, but I believe I was told that she was told to go along with the exhibitors' requests.) Not sure what year that was but it's been a little while ago now, so even back then a considerable number of people did not want accurate measurements. From everything I've heard, 2005 Nationals was much, much more blatant in terms of taller horses being measured smaller. I expect (hope) that one of these years all of this will come to a crashing halt, but obviously when it happens it's going to be very messy, with a lot of hard feelings.


----------



## Margo_C-T (Oct 11, 2005)

I have been following these various, but related-in-subject, threads with intense interest.

I must say "Bravo!", especially to the posts of Kim, Belinda, tagalong, and specifically to the folks who had the courage and moral fiber to file the protest, and to tell their story here. It is unconscienable, to me, that the "other" trainer and/or his wife confronted the protesters' trainer;however, I stand absolutely by my feeling that said trainer had a contractual obligation(yes, as an EMPLOYEE of their client-a fact that has been pointed out here by some who ARE, or were, trainers, and who have a genuine understanding of what constitutes the owner/trainer relationship)to the protesting owners--and should be called to account for his behavior-whether he was upset or not!

I would like to pose a question, and I will likely repeat it on the other related threads....there has been much, and understandable, discussion of horses 'dropping', or trying to, into lower height divisions. BUT-what about the horses who are being allowed to show AT ALL in AMHA(and, I would be willing to wager, AMHR), when they are demonstrably TOO TALL for 'any' of the breed's height divisions-and I DON'T MEAN by 1/4 of an inch!! ( I would venture to say that I have studied correct measurement as closely as any "ordinary owner" there is, and I am WELL aware that measurement can vary as much as 1/4" without an easily discernible reason--(in my estimation), more than 90% of the time, that's pretty much the extent of it--and, on RARE occasions, it *might* amount to 1/2", but I have never had it be more--IF you are doing the job correctly-and, I could even support a specified, slight "leeway",with this phenomenon in mind! But then--how do YOU think these horses are "measuring in", when they are 1" and(sometimes considerably) more, taller than they are being "measured" to be-especially, in AMHA's case, with the latest 'hands off once set up' rule actually in the rulebook! Honestly, there is so much "rationalizing" about how widely measurement supposedly varies-I suspect that many people think it is too much bother to work at doing it correctly-sorry, but that's my take-please, feel free to try to convince me otherwise! I KNOW it is problematic to provide a proper site for measurement, but, if you WANT to badly enough, you can, even on your own premises....and IMO, at ANY approved show, one of the requirements of show approval should be that the show WILL provide such a provable measurement location--and it goes without SAYING that there must be a provably level location for measurement at ANY Regional or National level show! That's "Job One", IMO."Job Two" is then to measure EVERY HORSE presented, strictly and accurately, at EVERY show, and at every level.

It burns me to the depths of my SOUL to read that ANYONE was told that it was "POLICY"(????)that they couldn't(following the prescribed and written procedure)file a protest! Where does it say that anyone within the registry, owned by its members, has the authority to do that, when it is not in the rules??? Is this part of a policy of intimidation? I can tell you all that there are most CERTAINLY owners and trainers 'out there' who operate in this manner--we had a exhibition of it at our club-sponsored show earlier this year. Although I had refused to be present, I do know that one well-known, big ol' 'trainer' actually snatched our Club's (nearly new, and very well-cared-for) Sligo stick from the hands of our measurer, and hammered on it, saying it "wasn't accurate"....(if I am there the next time, he might lose a hand if he tries that.)I do believe, however, that this kind of behavior is by design, and aimed at intimidation of show personnel and committees, with the clear implication that they won't come(meaning, enter, and provide financial support for your show, if you don't "go along" with the 'trend' of audacious measurement, and negation of the written rules.

I would hope that the management and BOARD of the AMHA take careful note of the various expressions within this thread that clearly demonstrate that this sidestepping of their own rules is HURTING them, in membership and participation-maybe not with the "important" exhibitors/trainers, but with a greater number of the "little guys", most of whom just want a chance at a level playing field where ther rules apply to all, and they can enjoy themselves. Question is--how important is it to the organization to keep the few happy at the cost of losing the support of the many?

I have to say that I absolutely believe that those of you who think this sort of thing isn't going on over at AMHR, and so declare your sole support to them, are ultimately likely to be sadly surprised. ( I found a post on one of the related threads, regarding an "incredibly shrinking" B-sized, AMHR, mini, to be very revealing, and not at all surprising, to me-read it for yourself to see what I am talking about.) This IS an industry-wide problem, and needs to be dealt with for and within the entire miniature horse industry, regardless of which major registry is your personal favorite.


----------



## nootka (Oct 11, 2005)

I will admit that my prior post was made before fully reading the thread, and this is one thread where that was inappropriate to do so, however I did not realize it until I printed the thread and took it to town with me so I could read it in between errands while waiting.

If in fact, the true facts have been presented (and I have no reason to think they weren't), by the poster who posted for the owners of the horse that was not shown because they protested, then there is a LOT of shame in the situation on the part of other parties! The owners of this horse did NOTHING WRONG.

I think it's sad that AMHA/the show office did not do more to protect the identity of the protestor (owner of the horse). Does it matter whether a person has another horse showing or not? Could it be ANY member of the registry to protest? Why was this person's identity made known to ANYONE involved? Therein lies the majority of the problem, to me. AMHA and the show staff are quite culpable if you ask me, but maybe I'm misunderstanding.

As for the behavior of the OTHER trainer and their wife, it is without excuse. I don't see why they could not have accepted the decision gracefully. There WERE other horses in the class that were over, from my understanding, but for whatever reason, they were left alone. I just don't see why they felt the need to attack the other trainer, the owner, etc.

I am heartbroken for the owner of this horse who should have been allowed to show in his class, and I can certainly understand their disappointment and hurt and feeling betrayed, because they were let down in more ways than one.

Whomever you are, kudos and apologies if my prior post felt accusatory in any way, it was rather the result of my lack of time and full understanding of the subject.

I think the trainer in question did make an unfortunate decision due to pressure applied from who knows what sources, and it was a pretty bad call, but somewhat understandable, considering. No way am I excusing it, just saying they should have had more "cajones" and stood up for their client, for cripes sake, as has been mentioned, THEY are paying the bills not the other trainer.

Man, this is sad. It will be interesting to see how it all comes out. Will it help to get some attention on this subject if people who were not there write to the registry? I don't want to be seen as being one sided, mostly concerned, overall, for the lack of respect for the rules and abuse of them. That concerns me as a member.

Liz M.


----------



## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

> My horse won the 28-30 class and the protested horse came in Reserve.








Thus this whole episode has an ironic - and tragic - twist... and I feel for those involved...


----------



## south_star (Oct 11, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]I WOULD JUST LIKE TO KNOW WHERE EVERYONE GETS OFF THINKING THAT THIS CONCERNS THEM! THIS IS A MATTER BETWEEN A TRAINER AND A CLIENT... NOT THE ENTIRE WORLD. NOW THIS HAS BEEN TALKED TO DEATH AND THERE HAVE BEEN SOME VERY RUDE COMMENTS AND I THINK THAT IT IS HIGH TIME FOR PEOPLE TO MIND THIER OWN BUSINESS. I DO NOT HAVE ANY TIES TO THE SUBJECT BUT I CAN SAY THAT I AM TIRED OF ALL OF THIS AND WE SHOULD ALL JUST GET ON WITH OUR LIVES AND LEAVE THIS TO THOSE DIRECTLY INVOLVED![/SIZE]


----------



## Skipper (Oct 11, 2005)

Key point 1: We do NOT know all the facts. Have even one of you emailed the lady whose horse was bumped and asked her HER side of the story? Has anyone contacted the trainer and ask him HIS side of the story? All you heard is ONE side and didnâ€™t even question that version â€“ was anything strategically left out? Until you hear from these 2 people you will not have the WHOLE story!

Key point 2: Gossip hurts - whether right or wrong. I bet many of you didnâ€™t even know that the horse which was protested DIED from a tragic accident the day after he showed? The owner suffered a great loss and if the owner is reading these posts, Iâ€™m sure itâ€™s very hurtful to her. I send my sincerest condolences to the owner of this beautiful stallion.

Key point 3: If anything, the measurements are done by one person and thus HE/SHE or the organization he represents are responsible for an accurate measurement. AMHA is very lax in this rule and they need to have a strict standard in place. I donâ€™tâ€™ know about AMHR. Also on this point, a lot of you speak as if all owners who use trainers/handlers have complete knowledge of the measuring system. I canâ€™t speak for everyone, but I know for a fact that one of the three owners whose name was besmirched didnâ€™t even know their horse was dropped down into a lower class until they arrived at the show 2 days before his class and several DAYS after he was measured. They just came to see their horses show. They left the measuring, training, showing up to the trainer â€“ thatâ€™s what they pay HIM for. The horse is so close to the line, he could have placed in either class. Yet, here some of you are â€“ assuming it was some big conspiracy when they didnâ€™t even realize it was that important. People â€“ you donâ€™t know how much you have hurt these people with your gossip. Their horse wasnâ€™t even protested but their integrity was questioned and lumped in just the same.

Key point 4: As far as the trainer who refused to show the horse â€“ in my opinion, he should have shown the horse. But, the protester should have consulted him before hand as to what they were going to do. He found out about it at the last minute (as the protestor states) and he was angry because it was just dropped in his lap by someone else â€“ a very angry someone else - not even the person he was showing for all year and had a working relationship with. And to him â€“ it probably made him look like he put her up to it, when he didnâ€™t even KNOW about it. Think about this point (which no one has made yet) â€“ knowing that he was embarrassed and angry â€“ what if he showed the horse and the horse lost big time â€“ would the owners then blame him for not showing the horse AS WELL as he could have because he was upset with them?

Key point 5: I know for a fact that the protestor knew at least two days before the class that one of the horses had been dropped down. In fact the heights had been posted for several days. Why didnâ€™t they protest THEN? But the protestor failed to mention this in her explanation. She had plenty of time to consult her trainer.

Key Point 5: The winner of this class was NOT protested. Let me repeat that â€“ the winner of this class did NOT own the protested horse!!! The stallion deserved the win â€“ he is gorgeous!

Skipper


----------



## Lauralee (Oct 11, 2005)

I wholeheartedly agree with LisaF's insightful post. THIS OCCURENCE INVOLVES ALL AMHA MEMBERS WHO CARE ABOUT THE RULES NOT BEING FOLLOWED!

To Skipper and south_star: It's hard to give any credit to the words of someone who doesn't show any identification in their signature, who has never posted prior to this time and who only logged on with their first post being this controversial subject.....smells fishy to me.



Are you hiding????

Belinda's post is at least credible because she is a regular poster on the forum and she at least uses her given name in her signature......


----------



## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

Lauralee said:


> I wholeheartedly agree with LisaF's insightful post.Â  THIS OCCURENCE INVOLVES ALL AMHA MEMBERS WHO CARE ABOUT THE RULES NOT BEING FOLLOWED!
> 483115[/snapback]
> ​


Yes - it does. And many here do know all sides of the story.

As I said - it has a tragic twist....

The rudest comments in this thread are from those who barge in and tell others to SHUT UP. The measuring issues SHOULD be discussed. The heads sticking in the sand and people looking the other way has gone on long enough. Ethics and professionalism can be discussed. Such matters pertain to ALL of us. If you have important facts to relate.... then DO so - and don't simply point and sneer. If a thread does not interest you - then do not read it or post. Simple message board rules and etiquette.... but then... in the mini horse world, rules do not seem to be of much consequence at times....






ETA:



> Key point 2: Gossip hurts - whether right or wrong. I bet many of you didnâ€™t even know that the horse which was protested DIED from a tragic accident the day after he showed? The owner suffered a great loss and if the owner is reading these posts, Iâ€™m sure itâ€™s very hurtful to her. I send my sincerest condolences to the owner of this beautiful stallion.


*YES - many of us are aware that he died from his accident. Hence my reference to the tragic twist. GET IT? And you note that out of decency we were not bringing that up in this thread - but YOU chose to. Do not assume that so many of us are stupid or unfeeling. HOW DARE YOU. Such is not the case and to be honest your insinuations of that are beyond rude. *

Nobody was delving into deep evil conspiracy theories of any kind - just the usual measuring fiascos... and HOW to fix them and address them and prevent further problems. Trainers need to look at the situation long and hard as well.

After reading this thread and the other similar one - why anyone would dare to file a protest in the future is beyond me.... LOOK at what happens.... is the fallout worth it???

Key Point Number 6 (or actually - 7) for Skipper. Have YOU considered the feelings of ALL sides... even the owner who finally decided to do the right thing - followed the established protocol - and then had a trainer walk out on her when she tried to follow the rules?? That horse never got to the ring. If it was YOUR horse - how would you have felt?? And yes - we_ knew _the winning stallion was not protested...

There is no black and white here - no absolute right or wrong. No "sides". And thus it is important to slowly sift through the layers and discuss the issues.... or so I thought. Guess I was wrong....


----------



## [email protected] (Oct 12, 2005)

Thank you Belinda for posting for the people that had their trainer bail on them.

Personally I'm so sorry they had to go through this, but applaud their taking a step towards cleaning up the measuring fiasco that both registries seem to struggle with still. They did followed proper protocol and procedures in what they did, it's unfortunate the couple that train the protested horse have such a lack of ethics that intimidating another trainer while he's trying to do his job would even cross their minds. It is just so low and shameful.

Their trainer may not have seen this coming himself, and it is unfortunate that there wasn't time to consult him about the protest, but ultimately it isn't up to him to decide if they chose to protest what they as an AMHA member see as a wrong doing. He's paid to show/train a horse, not make decision on which horses should/shouldn't be protested! If the trainer had any ethics himself, he would have protested that horse being downsized as most trainers at that level of competition know well in advance which horses they're showing against. (I know even on our local level you know which horses you show against!)

His responsibility is to his client not to another trainer. He may have been upset by what occurred, but a true professional would have shown his clients horse then discussed it afterwards. He literally betrayed their trust and ruined a dream for them. The minimum he owes them compensation for their expenses, and a huge apology.

Shame on both trainers and the trainer's wife - they've all been in this long enough to know better.



Belinda said:


> I am posting this response for the people that filed the protest , only because she wrote and ask me to , because she is not a member of Lil Beginnings and can not post on here at this time.. ..


----------



## nootka (Oct 12, 2005)

Yeah, I know that the horse passed away and I am horrified and saddened for them. I know there were mistakes made, etc. etc., but the issue at the core of this entire tragedy grown out of proportion and complicated with all the surrounding issues is that we have to speak up and protest outright abuse of the laws of our registry.

If we don't, then we might as well just shut up and go on spending our money to let people who know how to cheat and have no problems cheating win everything and rake in more money from the clients that only care about ribbons and money, etc., etc., maybe that is a simplified and exaggerated view of it all, but it's true.

I guess I will go back and see if I can buy back my Arabian mare and take her to the shows this Spring. Bet I could measure her in if I hire the right trainers and guess what...NONE of you will beat me! *LOL* J/K, but it's that bad!

This is a height registry, and it's moronic to think that a horse named the 28" and under World Champion would show up anywhere else and try to claim his "real" height....what's the height division for...sounds like it's attempting (and succeeding, apparently) to take advantage, blatantly of people who abide by the rules and people who are newly entering this hobby/industry and haven't yet learned the "tricks" to winning. Not winning at all, but cheating and it is awful PR, just terrible.

I have no issue w/the crap between the trainer and owner, that IS between them, and while I don't know the whole story, I am going to hush up on it, but I DO know there is measurement issues with almost every show I've ever been to, either one way or another, and it needs to be solved somehow. When it gets so bad as to have horses a few inches taller than their actual division, it has gone too far and it's making a true mockery of our organization, which is US.

I'm just babbling/venting, but I don't see where it's right to turn a blind eye because it happened to someone else. Soon enough, it will, or a situation like it, will involve us, if we let it get out of control.

Liz M.


----------



## honeycomb max (Oct 12, 2005)

Hopefully from all this AMHA will investigate as to why 1) the trainer of the protested horse was clearly allowing the horse to be placed in a lower measurement when the horse had shown all year in a higher measurement. 2) By what authority did the second trainer refuse to show his clients horse. 3) By what authority did the show committee refuse to allow anyone the ability to file a protest per the rulebook. 4) The conduct and ethics of the trainers involved for unsportsmanlike conduct. 5) Why have the problems with measuring been allowed to reach a point that this situation should have ever occured.

If we do not stand together for change then there can be no change. The rules are in place and it is time that they were being inforced.


----------



## Cathy_H (Oct 12, 2005)

> I WOULD JUST LIKE TO KNOW WHERE EVERYONE GETS OFF THINKING THAT THIS CONCERNS


*I would like to say that it DOES concern everyone who shows *......... ALL miniature horse exhibitors NEED to know what HAS BEEN GOING ON & allowed with this measuring mess. This forum is the best place to get the word out to the greatest number of people. All involved are welcome to tell their story here even AMHA.................... This incident supports what some of us know has been going on for years - "some horses are measured at the height that the trainers/owners desire"......................... AMHA is still at fault for allowing this to get to this point - seems the only way to get some people to listen is to raise a ruckus......... AMHA should do what is fair for all members - not just those that feel they have clout or are better than the rest of us.


----------



## Christine (Oct 12, 2005)

i agree 100% with skipper This is what happens when you air your dirty laundry in the public eye...yes measuring should be a concern with the amha memebers but this incidnet should not be, you got HER side of this story and she left some important info out and NO one questioned it these horses WERE listed several days before this class begin so why wait 15 min before the class starts to protest? I am sorry but if the trainer had shown the horse and he lost or did not do well then they would be complaining that the trainer did not show the horse to the best of their ability. I am sorry but as long as there are winners and loosers in this world there will always be someone complaining about something....yes this 29.5 horse should have been measured properly but all this other junk in here.......We are all so egar to jump on to the band wagon and take what is written of who we assume we know or are our forum friends and do not think the people involved we too may know or are friends we have actually met at shows and know the character of we are only hearing one side if you want to go after someone go after the people who measure the horse they seem to be forgotten here this should be their fault if they had done their job this would not be an issue!! I dont care how intimidated they are by big trainers and important horses, do it and do it right and there you go....I think should this matter been handled when the horses were added to the list days before the show and not 15 min prior to the show this would not have made the trainer so upset......there may be more here than meets the eye.........


----------



## Minimor (Oct 12, 2005)

Umm,come on, anyone who is determined to show a 29.5" horse in a 28" & under class is probably going to get upset when someone protests that entry, regardless of whether it is protested 3 days before or 15 minutes before the class.

I frankly think that it should be allowed for someone to file a protest after the class enters the ring. If the protested horse is found to be in violation of the height limit after the class, he loses his placing (if any) & does NOT get to go back in & show in his proper height class. Owner/trainer/horse doesn't just get caught cheating, they get punished for it. Champion & Reserve should get publicly measured immidiately after the placings are announced, and again, a horse over the allowed height be disqualified on the spot, no second chance in the next class.

Just because the measurements were posted 3 days ahead of the class doesn't, to me, mean anyone should have to protest immediately. I actually commend this person for taking the time to look at the entries, figure out where each horse had shown all year, decide if she should indeed file a protest and which horse(s) to protest. Tells me she thought about it some & it wasn't just a knee-jerk reaction to seeing the class list.

Anything I've said on any of these threads has been general in regards to my opinion of cheating on measurements. The officials are at fault for allowing handlers to dictate what size they measure any horse in at. The owner/trainers are even more at fault for trying to cheat in the first place & I say that not caring if the persons in this case are forum members or not, if they are/aren't anyone I personally know. If it were my very best friend I would say to her "if you are going to cheat then expect to get caught. Now that you have been caught, suck it up & get over it."

I for one did not know who any of the parties involved were. Now thanks to Skipper I do know who the protested horse, his owner & his trainer is. I'm very sorry for the owners loss of the horse the following day--that's very sad.

As for discussing this matter here, any time something like this goes on, there's going to be talk. If people aren't talking about it publicly like here on this forum, you have to know they are going to be talking about it privately, behind everyone's backs. Personally I get as upset by what I know/imagine is being said behind my back as I am by something said publicly. I actually have more respect for those who will speak up publicly. I personally think the entire thing is very unfortunate--this problem should never have been allowed to come to this point. Rules are in place for a reason, and if everyone tried to follow the rules, life would be so much more pleasant for all of us!


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 12, 2005)

ok took all of this out.. .


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 12, 2005)

I couldn't quote this but this is from the protesters letter there own words..

*********************************************************************

However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn't

have any information on, but an individual who knew the horse said

he would easily measure in. With no further information on him we let

that one go. The second horse had been showing in the taller class all

year, winning many grands, however the owner told me he was only 1/2"

over. Most people can trim hooves, etc. to take care of that.

So we let that horse go which was a mistake since his permanent papers

show a height of 29 1/2" on record at AMHA.

The third horse had not only been showing all year in the taller class,

but

had won a championship at one of the Regional Shows. It was listed

in the MHW current issue. The facts were right there.

****************************************************************

To me this is my biggest issue with this letter being public, this is THERE SIDE of course but this is also implying that the other 2 were cheaters, they chose not to protest them to let it go yet didn't choose to let it be gone.. they chose to bring it out in a public forum so that the owners of those 2 horses which i am assuming were the winners or we wouldn't even be discussing any of this period (which isa whole other subject) anyways that those horses and wins would be out in the public eye and be tainted.

Bottom line for me is this.. if you want a fair playing ground that is one thing then make it one and protest everyone so that EVERYONE has a right to re measure and put it to rest one way or another.. dont come back AFTER THE FACT AND IN WRITING PUBLICLY put it out there that the other 2 must have been cheating OK or in this instance the other ONE must have been cheating and put the owner of that horse in a position to feel the need to defend there ethics there win and there horse AFTER THE FACT -.. bottom line is you had the chance to protest it you chose not to LET IT GO do not come back later in a public forum and cry cheater this protester clearly stated we let it go IT WAS A MISTAKE implying this person cheated and did wrong.

Everyone opted to let that go how would you feel if that was your horse that won? If perhaps you wanted to come and share the news and saw this crap about YOU AND YOUR ETHICS? and instead felt you had to DEFEND YOURSELF, YOUR HORSE, AND YOUR WIN.

And just maybe someone else who sees that side of this came to post the same thing and yet was told we dont know you your opinion means squat yet..

I am not saying they didn't have the right to protest of course they did... and they did such and the horse was bumped back up and the issue brought to the forefront. and that is a good thing .

BUT that doesn't IMO give them the right to come back and in writing call someone else a cheater or OK lets get technical and say they IMPLIED this person was a cheater... when they chose not to protest and make them defend there win

THAT IS WRONG PERIOD in fact it is more then wrong it is shady- in my book anyway.

** now lets be clear i have no problem with them protesting the height of a horse and again bringing this issue up and out of the closet.. none at all that is there right and of course they can and should do it if they feel it is needed.. my issue is strictly with the mudslinging after the fact if you opt to let something go and NOT use your right to protest then let it go


----------



## SunQuest (Oct 12, 2005)

I have to agree with Minimor. The people filing the protest were seriously thinking about this. While the enteries were posted in advance and it would have been nice to give a little more warning, it does show to me that the person filing the protest thought this out and found the evidence that they thought they needed to support their claim instead of just making accusations.

Like Minimor, I didn't know anyone involved. So my thoughts were never connected with any one individual. Now I know much more than I would like to know about who it was.

And I do think this is an issue for all AMHA members as this effects how the general public looks at all of us as an organization. The biggest names which are normally the "professionals" of our industry represent us to the rest of the public. They are the ones that should be setting the examples for the whole organization to follow and from the accounts that were posted this whole situation was in bad taste from all sides when it came to the professionals. I don't fault either owner at this point as they paid professionals to show their horses in the appropriate class for that horse and this issue is really about the trainers doing wrong and the AMHA having people who don't follow the rules on measuring.

I can only imagine if there were children present and they saw this whole episode no matter who is right or wrong.






Again, I don't care who the individuals were that were involved. The simple facts are that a horse was not shown when there was a contract to do so that was backed by monies being already exchanged. (No one has denied this part of it.) The trainer was paid to show that horse and it should have been done unless that trainer would have been breaking the AMHA policies or other legal statutes. The rest of this should have been worked out afterwards in private between the parties involved, and NOT in public just before the class.

Lisa,

While your thoughts about protesting everyone is a good one, the issue becomes one of putting the money up to do so as I am under the impression that each horse that the protester had an issue with would be a seperate protest? I may be wrong on this line of thought though.

And I don't get the feeling that the person protesting was implying that the 2 she didn't protest were cheating. I get the feeling that there were several that she was comparing and that logically she ruled the 2 out as they are borderline. I think the reason that she said that in her post was to show that she wasn't singling out any one individual. It sounds like she was trying to be fair to all about the height.


----------



## Dandy (Oct 12, 2005)

Lisa, I honestly don't see where the owner who made the protest has said the other two horses were cheating. I think she had every right to state her case on this forum since it was being openly discussed. The other people involved have the same right, and I am certain they are aware of all of this being out here. Yes, this is just her side of the story. But, hey thats what it should be, it's her side. I don't show registered shows, but I have been to enough farms and seen many "oversize" mares that were still being used for breeding among other things. This industry is not any different than others. Some people will always find a way to circumvent rules if they want to bad enogh. I agree something needs to be done about the measuring. I think (if her story is correct) that she did the right thing. I also think her trainer did the wrong thing. But, thats just my opinion, like everyone elses.......


----------



## woodnldy (Oct 12, 2005)

Well, I have read through this thread over and over and as a TOTAL greenhorn on the showing I have to ask a question. If this has been going on for so long why haven't some of the judges had something to say?? Belinda could answer this for me i am sure. Are the judges not also aware of the rules??What qualifies a judge to be a judge for AMHA or AMHR?? Surely that much height difference would be obviose during the classes?? I realy hope someday to have a foal i can show(and i will probably ask Belinda's opinion since she lives closest)and I really hope they can get these questions and problems resolved. hmmm lead them under a height bar or something coming into class.laser measure against a board??

Cheryl


----------



## Christine (Oct 12, 2005)

"Owner/trainer/horse doesn't just get caught cheating" once again we are assuming and this makes what????You assume the owner knew this, did you see the owner standing there when they measured the horse.....I am not speaking of the 29.5" horse that was WAY too over and I as an owner would have gone to my trainer and said this can not be right but if this horse was only over by .50 or so I would go ok as others here have

and just becuase a horse is perm'd at one height does that mean a trainer can not get those hooves smaller.....or for that matter they did not grow or the hoves did not get longer......pondering....I have a stallion purchased by a big farm who is perm'd at 32.5" and when he hopped off he must have had trailer growth as he is now 34.5..........so that is not always true there.......

I would have loved to hear when you get the two different people who measured the horse and the trainer together and what they all had to say about that but.......

now come on you think this woman had three days to get what she got in a matter of what 10 min and you think three days is what it took her to figure this out that ok I am going to protest right now 15 minuites before my class starts, I did not say this protest should not have been done or even done the day she saw it but she had three days to figure it out.....again as I said below I am sorry but if the trainer had shown the horse and he lost or did not do well then they would be complaining that the trainer did not show the horse to the best of their ability, but as long as there are winners and loosers in this world there will always be someone complaining about something.


----------



## minimomNC (Oct 12, 2005)

I am not sure where everyone is getting that the protest was lodged 15 minutes before the class. If you go back and read carefully, they started this process earlier in the day, time enough to get a measurer, the trainers wife, the owner, paperwork filled out, confront the other trainer in the ring and outside the ring. The 15 minute thing is the amount of time before the class that the trainer dumped the horse. So he had to have known more than 15 minutes before the class, especially if he was told in the ring earlier. They filed this protest long before most of you think. No, not three days earlier but also not 15 minutes before the class either.


----------



## tagalong (Oct 12, 2005)

minimomNC said:


> I am not sure where everyone is getting that the protest was lodged 15 minutes before the class.Â  If you go back and read carefully, they started this process earlier in the day,Â  time enough to get a measurer, the trainers wife, the owner, paperwork filled out, confront the other trainer in the ring and outside the ring.Â  The 15 minute thing is the amount of time before the class that the trainer dumped the horse. So he had to have known more than 15 minutes before the class, especially if he was told in the ring earlier.Â  They filed this protest long before most of you think.Â  No, not three days earlier but also not 15 minutes before the class either.
> 483477[/snapback]
> ​


Thank you *minimom* - I was just about to post that very same information. Ironic, isn't it - that some berating those involved in these discussions for not having all the FACTS or not paying attention to the FACTS or not considering all sides of the issue (which most of us have) seem to have overlooked that.

Pot. Kettle. Black. _*shrug*_



> There was much discussion and several trips to the office to meet with officials. In the final discussion with the official in charge (not office personnel who were very courteous) the exhibitor was told to 'try to file a protest and the official would immediately call the committee (show committee I assume) and the protest would not be allowed. The official said the show would have to wait while this took place and so a protest would not be allowed. My thoughts on this---the horse is right there available---how long would it take to measure him???? Then he could just stay right there and go into the next class that fit his height.


THAT ^^ is from the first page of the other Sad Day thread, where *Charlotte* mentioned another protest (not the one we have been discussing in this thread) that was planned - and then the exhibitor was advised that it would be disallowed etc. Perhaps THAT protest was not filed early enough according to the rules. Didn't *Belinda *also look into filing a protest about something?? You can bet that for every protest we may actually hear about that someone considered following through on... many more were looked into and simply shelved due to the hassle and the possible repercussions...






ETA: Perhaps protests could be kept ANONYMOUS until the close of the show on the day the protest was filed - with Show Officials handling the measuring and documentation. That would avoid repercussions and scenes that are disruptive...

Just a thought, anyway...

ETA2: *honeycomb max* - good post....


----------



## Belinda (Oct 12, 2005)

> Didn't Belinda also look into filing a protest about something??



I* never *had the first thought about a filing a protest !!! The one thing I did

have a fit over was the fact of passing by Center ring as I was leaving a class , and saw a Judge standing right there reading the Show Program !!!!






Yep the one with everyone's names and horses names listed






That has always been a rule that a Judge is not to Know the Name of the Exhibitors or horses prior to judging.

I went directly to someone on the show Rules committee and it was dealt with ASAP . They were in shock to find that this had happened also. And of course there were millions of reasons the book was there..





To answer Cheryls question is not the Judges place to decide the height of a horse once the animal is put before them to judge. Judges just assume ( which that is a lot at times ) that the horses have met the qualifications to be in that class. We are given a job and that is to judge what comes in the ring. We can not police all the rules of a Assoc. That is why most have Licensed Steward's who address any and all problems that come about from measuring to horse Abuse.

Belinda


----------



## Kim (Oct 12, 2005)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> I couldn't quote this but this is from the protesters letter there own words..*********************************************************************
> 
> However, we did look at who the three horses were. One we didn't
> 
> ...


Maybe I'm missing something, but I just don't see where the protester has even tacitly implied that anyone other than the people in charge of the 29.5" horse were "cheaters". Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I read the protester's email as follows:

There were three horses that were late additions to the class, meaning that there were three horses that were entered in the class after the program was printed. The protester took it upon herself to find out who these horses were and to find out information on them, which is perfectly fine in my opinion. The first horse she did not know of, so she asked someone who did know the horse, and they said that that horse "would easily measure in" (quote taken from the protester's email). To me, that clearly says that that horse is NOT OVERSIZE and is therefore NOT A CHEATER.

Regarding the second horse, the protester was told by its owner that it was within 1/2 inch of the height limit. The protester, like most reasonable people, realized that a horse within 1/2 of the limit could easily measure in, depending on many factors. We all know that measurements vary. So, the protester chose not to protest this horse, as she was under the impression that it would most likely measure in. Again - NOT A CHEATER.

It was the third horse that the protester thought (for good reason since it had been showing in 28-30 all year) was well over 28 inches, and thus it is that horse that she chose to protest. And the protest was successful. The horse measured 29.5 inches the second time - AN INCH AND A HALF over the limit.

By continuing to denigrate the person who protested and by questioning their motives you are only encouraging people not to exercise their right to protest, which in turn encourages deception and deceit to proliferate. I, for one, am appreciative to the person who protested for having the courage to do so. I know that it really frustrates me when I'm lined up in a driving class and the horse beside me visibly towers over my 34" horse. I, on the other hand, cannot say that I have had this same courage. I have not exercised my right to protest, because as this person has so obviously found out, there are serious repercussions for doing so. WHY are people continuing to put this person down and questioning her ethics and motives for protesting an oversize horse? It's high time that AMHA cleaned up their act in a lot of respects, and this person should not be chastized for being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. To the person who protested: THANK YOU. To those of you who are putting her down for so doing, and saying that she never should have done so, you really should be ashamed of your lack of moral integrity.

edited for a typo


----------



## Jill (Oct 12, 2005)

Danielle --

I just now saw that my "blindside the trainer" quote upset you. At the time, I didn't know about the reason the owner didn't tell the trainer beforehand. Reading their response, I think maybe they would have told him if they had it to do over, but of course, I don't know that is the case since I am not them. I understand now why they did it as they did, but it's still not what I would do. I would not take a big action like that without letting my trainer know first. The way I read it, up until the situation where the trainer wouldn't show the horse, that trainer didn't do anything "we" think is wrong (correct? I have read all this but there's a lot of different points of view). I think a lot of people believe I mean the trainer needed to "okay" the client protesting, which is NOT my opinion at all. He is the one in the ring and the one to take the initial heat. How would you feel if you get wind of this situation at the same time as the people who are outside your relationship with your client? I feel the client had a right to protest absolutely, but that it would have been better if the trainer was aware of the intentions.

Jill


----------



## lvponies (Oct 12, 2005)

Kim.....Beautifully said!!!


----------



## Buckskin gal (Oct 12, 2005)

So well said Kim. I think the protester should be given a pat on the back for standing up for what she thought was right rather than be accused of implying the others were cheating.



If someone is thinking about someones elses's feelings being hurt, perhaps they should consider how the protestor feels by being accused of implying the others were cheating! If the other two were not cheating, they can be proud of their wins but I don't in any way see how they should have their feelings hurt by what the protester explained on this forum. It did take courage for the protester to stand up for what she thought was right and more people need to have the same courage instead of putting people down for it. And I do hope that all winners will be measured in front of the audience, in the future, so this kind of thing does not happen over and over. JMHO



> By continuing to denigrade the person who protested and by questioning their motives you are only encouraging people not to exercise their right to protest, which in turn encourages deception and deceit to proliferate. I, for one, am appreciative to the person who protested for having the courage to do so. I know that it really frustrates me when I'm lined up in a driving class and the horse beside me visibly towers over my 34" horse. I, on the other hand, cannot say that I have had this same courage. I have not exercised my right to protest, because as this person has so obviously found out, there are serious repercussions for doing so. WHY are people continuing to put this person down and questioning her ethics and motives for protesting an oversize horse? It's high time that AMHA cleaned up their act in a lot of respects, and this person should not be chastized for being part of the solution rather than part of the problem. To the person who protested: THANK YOU. To those of you who are putting her down for so doing, and saying that she never should have done so, you really should be ashamed of your lack of moral integrity.
> 483562[/snapback]
> ​


----------



## minicount (Oct 12, 2005)

Well almost made it with out posting on this subject.

Here we have Owner A protest Trainer B's horse. Trainer B's protested horse fails to measure in, twice. Trainer B then goes on a tirade to Owner A's trainer. Trainer B takes his horse in height apporpriate class and wins Reserve. Owner A's horse doesn't leave the stall.

There are some "shades' of grey in there, _maybe_ the horse should have been protested earlier, _maybe_ the trainer should have been notified, _maybe_ it should have been tried to be worked out before. However the horse *SHOULD NOT *have been in the class, Trainer B *SHOULD NOT* have acted like a bully and Owner A's trainer *SHOULD HAVE* shown the horse.

So squable about the maybes if you think it justifies the shoulds'.

The core of this thread, like all the others, is the system of measureing currently in place.


----------



## minimomNC (Oct 12, 2005)

I personally think its time to drop the whole thing. Everything that can be said, has been and now its just being repeated over and over. People have made up their minds who is right and who is wrong. Regardless of what any of us think, its over. It's done.

Now is the time to take all of this energy and focus on what can be done to make sure it doesn't happen again. This should be a positive learning experience. So lets make is positive now. Start thinking about how you can as a member of AMHA or AMHR make things better.

All trainers have good days and all trainers have bad days. One mistake either way doesn't make them bad people. Heaven knows I have done things in my life that weren't alway right. And I am sure others on here have too, but it shouldn't be the only thing in your life you are remember by.

So as members step up to the plate and help make things right.

My first suggestion is already somewhere around the board. If you are part of a club putting on the show, watch the measuring. Have the approved pictures right there and make sure the rules are followed. Don't let anyone "slide" by. Make it fair for everyone. We all have to do our parts if we want this resolved for the breed.


----------



## woodnldy (Oct 12, 2005)

Thanks Belinda,I didn't know the judges weren't even supposed to know the nameor horses owners. Makes sense tho when you think of it. Then the stewards should be watching also. It comesdown to the registry's(both of them) need to police their people a lot closer and stress the honesty thats needed in those doing the measuring. anyhow,Thanks again Belinda ! I have learned a lot from this forum and enjoy it no end. Keep up the good work everyone !





Cheryl


----------



## tagalong (Oct 12, 2005)

> I never had the first thought about a filing a protest !!!


My apologies *Belinda* - you are right - there are so many layers going on here that I got my wires crossed. I'm blonde. It happens.

And you are right - a judge has NO BUSINESS reading the class list ahead of time. If he/she wants to know the numbers of entries - ask the ring steward or the gate.



> There are some "shades' of grey in there, maybe the horse should have been protested earlier, maybe the trainer should have been notified, maybe it should have been tried to be worked out before. However the horse *SHOULD NOT* have been in the class, Trainer B *SHOULD NOT *have acted like a bully and Owner A's trainer *SHOULD HAVE* shown the horse.


In a nutshell - you summed it up, *minicount*....





And *Kim* - we must share a brain... only you have the eloquent, well-spoken half....


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 12, 2005)

She clearly said... The owner said he was 1/2 inch over we let that go but THAT WAS A MISTAKE the horse was 29 .50 in.. on his perm papers

Did you ever think that perhaps the integrity of someone else might be at stake here not just the integretiy of someone filing the protest.. (and not the person who was bumped up and protested) and that is the point i was trying to make ierhaps they BOTH deserve the respect of us admitting that perhaps just perhaps we dont know the entire story

saying the owner knew he was .50 over implies they tried to do something they shouldnt have.. but again t none of this really matters anymore bottom line is if you want something changed about the measuring discuss it with your directors and get something done and rules enforced that is the good out of all of this


----------



## Angel2 (Oct 12, 2005)

Get your flamethrower out, you'll probably want to use them.

This is the only response as to why the trainers have not responded. Why should they? What could either of them possibly gain, you have had your witch hunt, tarred & feathered both of them, with no first hand knowledge of what actually happened. I am in contact with one of the trainers involved, they sat down and drafted a response to this , after much thought and discussion, it was decided it was pointless. It is a no win situation on all 3 sides, where one would see reason, three would see a reason to start yet another thread.

The owner has been in touch with the trainer and regrets ever having had their side posted, this issue has been beat to death on more than one thread. All involved are in agreement that things should not have happened as they did, such is life. The owners are not bad people, and neither of the trainers are bad people. This is after all their business, they are attending to it and everyone personally involved wishes you would all attend to yours. As Mulligans Run stated, "he who is without sin, cast the first stone"

The measurement issue definately needs to be addressed, let's focus on that.


----------



## victoria (Oct 12, 2005)

Well here in I have never seen a protest lodged prior to the class, with the way of thinking is that until that unqualified exhibit (either by age, hight, colour, etc) steps into the ring to be judged no rule has been broken, - if the protest is up held that horse is not able to show at that show striped of awards which are redistributed. however this leads to people saying oh I'll only protest it if the horse does well - which to my mind is wrong. if you think a horse is not the correct colour/age/height for the class regardless of where it places then you should put your money where your mouth is or don't moan about it.

Peronally I don't think those that are protested should react is poorly as they do at times (and yes I have been on both ends). If you have nothing to hide then it shouldn't be an issue and then the ringside moaning and rumours are put to rest. Until people feel they can protest the without being ostrasized afterwards they wont do it unless they have the intestinal fortitude to deal with the aftermath. I say good on those who will stand up for what they believe in...


----------



## tagalong (Oct 12, 2005)

> What could either of them possibly gain, you have had your witch hunt, tarred & feathered both of them, with no first hand knowledge of what actually happened. I am in contact with one of the trainers involved, they sat down and drafted a response to this , after much thought and discussion, it was decided it was pointless. It is a no win situation on all 3 sides, where one would see reason, three would see a reason to start yet another thread.


*angel* - rather than coming onto the board solely to _berate & bash_ others... as you have done... it might have been better to simply state your opinion - offer your balanced _non-partisan_ insight (most of us here are not aligned with any "side" - there are no "sides" as I said earlier - or did you even bother to read other posts?) and suggest solutions or ways to smooth things out for the future. And not accuse and sneer. There has been no witch hunt as you so gleefully assert. Did you want one? _*confused*_ Hearing from other parties and clearing the air would be a good idea IMHO - as then the complaints about not hearing all sides would be silenced. But to each his own. God forbid some of us "little people" dare to have concerns... they will only be condemned. And don't even THINK of filing a protest - look at the nonsense and repercussions that will ensue. That message is being sent out loud and clear, I fear.

No flames here - this board is not even on the radar of internet forums that really get intense. Not even remotely close....








> The measurement issue definately needs to be addressed, let's focus on that.


Uh huh. Well that IS what the main focus has been and what the root of the problem is - as if the measuring rules were followed - none of this would have even happened....

Maybe they should scrap the smaller size divisions of 2" increases - and merely go, by example, 30" and under... Over 30".... two divisions instead of four... and that might alleviate a lot of the sliding up and down and back and forth...

But then there is the matter of the 34" horses... that _aren't._



And on it goes...


----------



## Belinda (Oct 13, 2005)

I am posting one LAST MESSAGE FROM THE FAMILY THAT FILED THE PROTEST !

Then we will let this rest



As for the most part this subject has turn a little on the









Side of things. Most are NOT really reading some of the post and missing very important issues being brought up.



The whole intent of this subject was about the lax measuring practices we have had in the last year. And what can we as members of AMHA and AMHR /ASPC do to correct this.. but most subjects on this board that deal with controversy turn into Nasty name calling



and that will NEVER solve anything , we must all sit down and talk in calm voices with our Thinking caps in place... Measuring will never be an exact science given the places and way we have to measure..



But I will say that by measuring on the wither comes alot closer , I show my ponies all year and 99% of the time no matter where we are they measure the same or within a 1/4 " of what they did the last time by someone else.



So



let us all try and come up with a solution to this problem instead of all the






(( I just love these little faces ))



OK I am off my soap box !! LOL !

*******************************************************************

Hi Belinda,

I received a phone call saying that there was another

post from Angel2 on the thread about the trainer.

Since you posted my statement, I would very much

appreciate you posting this following message from

me regarding her post.

It says that the owner and trainer have been in contact

with one another. That is true, however, I never said

that I regretted posting on this site. I said that there

were many people speculating about the issues. I also

said that I don't criticize those that speculate at times,

because I have done that at times myself. I posted my

statement to give the facts as to what happened in our

circumstance when we protested.

There also seems to be confusion as to why the protest

was not done until the morning of the class. You do not

have the entire list of horses in a class until close of entries.

Three horses were added to the class after the premium

book was printed. All three horses were listed in the taller

class in the book.

We did not want to make any rash decision and protest on

a whim. We found out the facts before we made an

important decision that could effect others. We spoke

to the office staff more than once and looked at the

measurements posted. It takes time to do these things

and I do regret that some people continue to wonder

about our motives. We want things changed so that

things are done with integrity and fairness to everyone.

It is not our intent to hurt or destroy anyones reputation.

However, we have suffered consequences from doing just

what the AMHA rule book says to do. Even so, we are

hoping that something good comes from this. Speak up

and make changes for everyone. Make it fair, competive,

but enjoyable at the same time. Why should anyone come

home having gone through something like this. There are

many wonderful people in this organization and working

together all of you can make a difference.

I can't tell you how much your words of support

have meant to me.

Thank you Belinda for posting this message for me.


----------



## Annetta (Oct 13, 2005)

I don't know if I've thrown any stones or not,



though since I've never tried to fudge the measurement on a horse I wish there was some way for me to give a starting push to a big old boulder that would roll down & permanently squash this measuring nonsense.



I just hope that the 'little people' can band together & get enough votes in to come up with some rule change that will help to prevent this sort of thing from being an issue in the future.

Thank you again Belinda for the update/clarification, and thank you angel2 for confirming that you can't believe everything you hear.





I still like the suggestion that Champ & Res. horses be measured at the gate & if found to be over the height limit then the horse is DQ'd & the awards are redistributed. Then the only issue would be ensuring that the measurement officials at the gate are honest & accurate, no matter who the horse's handler/owner/trainer may be or what they may say.


----------



## tagalong (Oct 13, 2005)

Thank you, *Belinda*



... for your words of wisdom and your (and the protestor's) participation on this thread.... I am glad they did NOT regret posting here....


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Oct 13, 2005)

I totally agree with measuring the Champ and Reserve on exit BUT, realistically, it ain't gonna happen



You have a situation where it would appear no-one has had the gumption to measure out a horse that is over an inch too big for it's class AND IT HAS NOT EVEN AT THAT POINT ENTERED THE RING, LET ALONE WON. Where do you think you are going to find people who would be willing to measure out a horses that has just gone Grand Champion???? First get the measuring sorted out- believe me uneven ground- slightly uneven- does NOT make an inch difference!!- then get the rules sorted out. As things stand, the rules necessary to get horses measured correctly are already in place. It states quite clearly that abuse from exhibitors will not be tolerated. Enforce the existing rules, insist that they are enforced, before you fudge the issue by trying to get them changed (which would appear to be a lost cause anyway)


----------



## nootka (Oct 13, 2005)

> Enforce the existing rules


Yay, and that is what this thread is all about.

It matters not WHO, WHERE, or anything in between, it only matters WHAT and the above^^ is exactly that.

I feel it extremely unfortunate that someone tried to use the process provided to help do exactly that and has been so terribly ostracized.

Is there anyone else here that thinks it is a grave mistake to make the protestor's name immediately known to the protestee? What purpose does this serve? I think all it did was lead to an ugly confrontation and a ripple effect which was truly tragic.

Liz M.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Oct 13, 2005)

Of course the name of the protester should be private- over here that is a given!! If they _choose_ to make themselves known that is another thing entirely. The whole procedure, if it happened as reported, has been badly mishandled. I do not give a FIG who the people with the overheight horse are, at any show, in any country. They can be President of America or the Queen of England for all I care, and overheight horse is an overheight horse. If this is really a problem then the measuring people need to employ a professional "Handler" for the day so all the horses are presented by the same person. But that is all unnecessary if the existent rules are just enforced, irrespective of whose horse it is.

And why aren't you in bed???????


----------



## tagalong (Oct 13, 2005)

> Is there anyone else here that thinks it is a grave mistake to make the protestor's name immediately known to the protestee? What purpose does this serve? I think all it did was lead to an ugly confrontation and a ripple effect which was truly tragic.


I agree, *nootka!*





As I said earlier, perhaps a protestor's name could be *withheld* until after the end of the show day of the class involved... as a way of sidetracking any incendiary repercussions that may occur when emotions are running high.

Show officials would handle the measuring... and deal with the people of the horse being protested against. As it should be. In a professional manner. And without the fear of potential altercations, intimidation and fall out that keeps many people silent...

One small step that could help out, anyway.... _*shrug*_


----------



## Danielle_E. (Oct 13, 2005)

> How would you feel if you get wind of this situation at the same time as the people who are outside your relationship with your client? I feel the client had a right to protest absolutely, but that it would have been better if the trainer was aware of the intentions.



Thanks Jill for your reply. I guess I see that in this case that this shouldn't touch the trainer/client relationship. The client hired the trainer to train THEIR horse and show THEIR horse. It is sad that a trainer would feel "the heat" in the first place. What this tells me is perhaps that "trainers" (and I mean SOME not ALL) are ultimately more concerned with potential clients acceptance, who might do exactly what the owners of the overhorse did, and concerned about his relationship with "trainers" that also are part of this. It doesn't change my feelings one bit in all of this. This trainer that didn't show this client's horse could have been a "champion" for "ethics" and "rules" and help bring things back the way they should be but instead it shows me the opposite. By what this trainer did and the other trainer, I wouldn't want either of them working for me. If you can't go into a class and play by the rules then your "wins" mean absolutely nothing!


----------



## Nostalgia (Oct 14, 2005)

I wasn't going to comment on this issue about the trainer not showing a horse. First of all I was there and am very close to the situation, but that is besides the point.

The point is none of us where involved in the situation so why do we have to criticize those that were? I have my own personal feelings on this issue, but feel that they should be kept to myself. This forum was not intended to slander, create problems or a bad name for anyone, but for some reason this is one of the lengthiest posts and the mojority of the comments contain derogatory remarks about people.

I am sure that the person that filed the protest, the trainer who didn't show the protestors horse, and the owner and trainers of the protested horse (who deserves our sympathy) have been through enough! Everyone has made mistakes - and it is not our situation to hash out!

In my experience, both trainers involved are very honest and ethical people that strive to do the right thing.

I enjoy reading on this post and love to hear many stories, see many pictures, and learn about numerous postive experiences.

Natalie


----------



## Danielle_E. (Oct 14, 2005)

Natalie, I don't know about most on this thread or not but I am going to be extremely straight forward and more than likely make enemies, so be it. I don't see where anyone was "slandered" etc. I am sorry if I am coming on strong here but speaking as one of the 12 that had a bogus and ridiculous lawsuit hanging over our heads here at lilbeginnings about a supposed "slander" and other stuff, I think before people throw out the word that you educate yourself as to what "slander" truly IS!!! Slander is basically saying someone did something "criminal", something that can be punished by law. Take for example if I were to say that my sister committed a fraudulent act and it wasn't true or if I said so and so is a "killer", get my meaning. Saying someone is lets say "stupid" or "cheated" is NOT slander so please don't throw words out like that. What you have here are people who are voicing their opinion on a situation that was mentioned. I don't know the identities of either owners or either trainers and I don't care to. What I do care about is correcting the problem with regards to an horse who is overtheheight limit for that class being allowed to show in that class in the first place. Those are issues that have been around for a long time and NEED to be RESOLVED.

I am sorry if I saw red when I read your post but that word "slander" set me off.


----------



## Nostalgia (Oct 14, 2005)

Danielle_E. said:


> Natalie,  I don't know about most on this thread or not but I am going to be extremely straight forward and more than likely make enemies, so be it.  I don't see where anyone was "slandered" etc.  I am sorry if I am coming on strong here but speaking as one of the 12 that had a bogus and ridiculous lawsuit hanging over our heads here at lilbeginnings about a supposed "slander" and other stuff, I think before people throw out the word that you educate yourself as to what "slander" truly IS!!! Slander is basically saying someone did something "criminal", something that can be punished by law.  Take for example if I were to say that my sister committed a fraudulent act and it wasn't true or if I said so and so is a "killer", get my meaning.  Saying someone is lets say "stupid" or "cheated" is NOT slander so please don't throw words out like that.  What you have here are people who are voicing their opinion on a situation that was mentioned.  I don't know the identities of either owners or either trainers and I don't care to.  What I do care about is correcting the problem with regards to an horse who is overtheheight limit for that class being allowed to show in that class in the first place.  Those are issues that have been around for a long time and NEED to be RESOLVED.  I am sorry if I saw red when I read your post but that word "slander" set me off.
> 
> 484544[/snapback]
> ​


----------



## tagalong (Oct 14, 2005)

Yep. What Danielle said.





It is not "slander" to examine an unfortunate episode and sort out ways to prevent such things from happening again - and the measuring issue is at the base of it. No one has said not to go to Trainer A or Trainer B ever again. No one has said anything beyond concern and opinions about what happened in the mess at hand. And some who have posted here _were_ there... and _were_ involved...

Please note that most of this thread is a forum about ways to fix the system to prevent such things from happening - and has nothing to do with "slander"....

and everything to do with people having some input and making suggestions - some of them may not be worded to everyone's liking... but that may simply be an indication of the strength of that person's feelings on the matter...


----------



## Nostalgia (Oct 14, 2005)

Sorry to repost the previuos comments, hit a button in error! Actually you are correct, it would not be slander, because slander is spoken. Libel would be the proper word becuase it is written. Writing that someone is unethical and that the trainer should be sued (which was said by some) is degrading someones character - hence libel.

I wasn't speaking to anyone imparticular so I would appreciate it if you wouldn't try to give me an education. My family paid greatly for the one that I have already received.

If you intend to concentrate on the issue of measuring then why are there so many comments against a trainer on a thread titled "A question for those ready to hang this "trainer""?

To save alot of peoples feelings, personal character, and there profession please discuss measuring on a new thread. I am sure a lot of people would love to participate and this forum would rec. alot more credibility from officials that can help make a difference.

Lets try chasing away the negative with some positive resolutions.

Natalie


----------



## Danielle_E. (Oct 14, 2005)

Natalie, I wanted to say to you also have the right to voice your opinions on this topic and any other on this forum. I noticed you posted after I did but didn't write anything in your post, just quoted. Please don't feel like you can't reply to me and tell me to "knock it off" if that is how you feel about my post. EVERYONE has a right to their opinion on any topic that comes up here and if I came across the way I did it probably because I have had less than 3 hours sleep because of a sick horse so I am not in the best "frame" of mind today but I still loath the word slander when it doesn't "legally" apply. Forgive me.


----------



## Annetta (Oct 14, 2005)

Nostalgia said:


> Lets try chasing away the negative with some positive resolutions.
> 
> Natalie
> 
> ...


Here's my personal resolution, same as it has always been:

I shalt not cheat by putting my taller horse into a smaller class.


----------



## Nostalgia (Oct 14, 2005)

Danielle,

Please read my last post again. I specifically stated that I hit the wrong button and didn't mean to post the previous comments (meaning quoting you). I wasn't holding anything against you, after all I didn't know the whole situation (especially being exhausted).

Apology accepted








Natalie


----------



## Danielle_E. (Oct 14, 2005)

I see you did post,





The unfortunate part about the internet is you don't "hear" what is being said, you only see the "words" so you can get a very different perception than what was meant by the person posting



(can you tell I am tired, I hope that made sense).

Nobody is "hanging" this trainer, the owner, etc. I think the initial thread had alot of food for thought. It brought up something that people have been saying has happened quite a bit in the past, the overheight issue in some cases. It has brought about a thread about what can be done about it. I consider that a "positive". I also consider it a positive that what transpired with the trainer refusing to show the clien'ts horse because it made those who use a trainer think about perhaps what is covered in a "contract" in a situation like this and maybe what should be added in such contracts. I don't think anyone every dreamed of this kind of scenario, it's almost sureal.

If a contract was signed between the two parties for a certain amount of $$ for the services of the professional trainer that the contract SHOULD have been fulfilled. It obviously was not fulfilled. Any person in a situation where you contract someone to do a job and the job is NOT DONE has the right to request that monies (amount to be agreed upon by both parties) be returned for non-compliance of the contract. Perhaps an agreement can be made without resorting to legal avenues and that would be wonderful but I believe that most voiced "their opinion" that if they were in that situation that this owner finds himself/herself in, that it would be the route they would go if in fact they could not get satisfaction and closure to the matter. I don't see that as slander or libel. Slander is "oral", libel if "written" and defamation is to "*falsely* reflect on a person's reputation".

None of that has transpired in these threads.


----------

