# We are all just doomed..... Obamacare



## HGFarm (Jul 16, 2012)

This is beyond terrifying, but it IS written in the bill that 'nobody read' before it was voted in. They certainly were smart enough to exempt themselves from this genecide bill- and that is truly what it is. How much health care do you think you are REALLY going to get under this? Oopsie, you've reached your $5000 limit and let's see, it's gonna take the gov't committee months to make a simple decision on someone's care. Oh, they died in the meantime? Oh well! This bill is written to go along with Agenda 21, and deciding who is worthy of living and who is not. Wake up folks!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=HcBaSP31Be8&vg=medium


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## Sonya (Jul 16, 2012)

yes we are doomed....thats all I say as most in this forum will back Obama no matter the cost.


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## Marty (Jul 16, 2012)

Excuse me but I thought we lived in the United States of America.

Doesn't sound like it.


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

I agree with Sonya. Obama wishes his _voiced_ support here on LB was representative of his support among voters. Obamacare is unpopular and so is Obama. The more we know about either, the less we like what we learn. No incumbent president with approval ratings as low as Obama's are this close to the election has ever been re-elected. If Obama does not get his pink slip this November, we will can no longer expect to have the best health care in the world, and so much else is at stake, too.


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## MountainWoman (Jul 17, 2012)

Well, you know someone had to jump in and cause trouble.




Seriously, I respect everyone's opinion but I do love to debate and I'm the first to admit it when I'm wrong so here goes.

First thing that comes to mind is who put out this video? Source? All sources can take things out of context whether they are dems or repubs and reading a couple of lines on a page doesn't give you anything in entirety. I'd like to see the entire bill to read it for myself which evidently no one in Congress took the time to do before they passed it according to Nancy Pelosi. I'm having a hard time believing care will be limited to 5,000.00 care a year. If so, why remove the caps on lifetime benefits you will receive? You can run up more than 5,000 in a one day hospital stay.

My biggest fear with this bill is that no one knows how we are going to pay for it, small businesses are going to have a hard time funding their part of it and our country is going to be set even further back in this economic mess.

Disclaimer: I'm from Vermont and a Bernie Sanders fan and I do believe everyone needs access to health care. Hmm, Healthcare is a human right? Or is it?

It's going to be an interesting election year for sure.

And, Jill, I love reading your posts because I learn a lot from the links you share, etc. Just love a good debate.


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## ohmt (Jul 17, 2012)

No longer expect to have the best health care in the world?! LOL!

http://mobile.commonwealthfund.org/News/News-Releases/2010/Jun/US-Ranks-Last-Among-Seven-Countries.aspx

http://www.who.int/whr/2000/media_centre/press_release/en/

And here is a lot of great reading for those who would like facts from an unbiased source regarding Obamacare. http://www.politifact.com/search/?q=obamacare

Another must read-this one proves the falsehood of the video. It is NOT true! http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2012/mar/21/health-care-fact-checking/


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## tagalong (Jul 17, 2012)

> Another must read-this one proves the falsehood of the video. It is NOT true! Do your homework people.


That is a big issue - people do not actually do any homework for themselves - _they just believe what they are told. Viral emails, videos, opinion pieces presenting themselves as fact, whatever... it is easy to check out the truth of these little "items" - and yet very few do. _

That video full of fear-mongering misinformation is a prime example. Did anyone here upset about Obamacare not note that in Romney's speech about the SCOTUS decision to uphold the individual mandate - that a lot of what he said he would instigate when he was elected is already in Obamacare?? I guess not - it is okay if someone from the GOP says exactly the same thing - especially someone who already set up a similar healthcare program. Call it Obamacare or Romneycare or whatever you please - but something is needed to fix the mess we are in now... and even if Romney is elected, there is going to be some kind of healthcare - he will just call it something else and no doubt healthcare opponents will just look the other way.

I wish all the idiots in Washington complaining about healthcare issues would give up their very nice healthcare program they have as a government employee - but show me all the Republicans OR Democrats who are doing _that_, please... they won't put their money where their mouth is. Not a chance.

Anther great article HERE about the MYTHS presented about Obamacare - all links/facts are also checked and verified and are not from opinion pieces , blogs etc.

And contrary to what will inevitably be said here, Politifact, FactCheck.org and even Snopes are non-partisan and are only interested in the truth and actual facts... they hold everyone to task and expose the nonsense on both "sides".


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## Riverrose28 (Jul 17, 2012)

I wanted to post some links this morning defending and debunking, but my computer is hot and running just awful, so I'm glad that Tag and OHMT can, Thanks Guys!


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

There's a reason people who live in nations with socialized or nationalized health care who can afford to get treated in our Nation do seek treatment in the USA. We have the best doctors, the best technology and ... for now... no waiting lists and no rationing.

Is it perfect? No. Is a govenment overhaul the answer? No way! Bigger government is not the answer to any of our Nation's issues, and it never has been.

The cartoonists spin on this important situation:


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## drmatthewtaylor (Jul 17, 2012)

Health Insurance does not equal Health Care.

I do not believe Health Care is a right. The statement is just too broad. Is everyone entitled to a liver transplant? IV drug user? Alcoholic? Cancer patient? Geriatric? Is everyone entitled to plastic surgery?

I do believe Americans don't want to have dieing people left in the street to suffer. This is already being handled as Hospitals never turn down the dieing. These people are paid for by charging those who do pay more and through tax dollars.

The problem with Health Care is that it costs too much. I doubt Obamacare has or will lower the cost curve.

One last thought, I hear it being said 'no one should go bankrupt because they got sick'. Really when is the appropriate time to go bankrupt if it's not when you are trying to save your own life?

Dr. Taylor


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## Sue_C. (Jul 17, 2012)

> There's a reason people who live in nations with socialized or nationalized health care who can afford to get treated in our Nation do seek treatment in the USA. We have the best doctors, the best technology and ... for now... no waiting lists and no rationing.


I have several friends who have been treated in Mexico for MS, so to say the US's healthcare is so superior we flock to it when in need is a bit overboard. Yes, there ARE clinics in the US with some pretty awe-inspiring Doctors and equipment...but AMAZINGLY ENOUGH...there are millions of us here that are quite well taken care of in Canada.


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## HGFarm (Jul 17, 2012)

Nobody is unopinionated- snopes is known to be 'pro obama'. I dont know about the other ones. So has anyone on here read the health care bill because nobody seems to want to REALLY know what is in it. Everyone relies on someone else's summary (including me as I have certainly not read the whole thing) So the pro-obama sites are not leaving info out or using inuendos to convince the reader that it's all good, but the non-obama sites are?

I dont want the gov't in charge of my health care. So who IS going to pay for all this? There's a question for you all.


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

Sue_C. said:


> I have several friends who have been treated in Mexico for MS, so to say the US's healthcare is so superior we flock to it when in need is a bit overboard. Yes, there ARE clinics in the US with some pretty awe-inspiring Doctors and equipment...but AMAZINGLY ENOUGH...there are millions of us here that are quite well taken care of in Canada.


I don't think it's at all overboard when some of your own government officials come here! There's a difference between coming to the USA to receive life saving treatment, and people in the US or elsewhere going to a foreign country for treatments not approved in the USA, cheap breast implants or a low cost nose job. God help us if we ever are forced into a single payer health system...


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## HGFarm (Jul 17, 2012)

So we have heard sides about what is not true in the health care bill- just exactly what ARE we getting then?


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

HGFarm said:


> So we have heard sides about what is not true in the health care bill- just exactly what ARE we getting then?


I pray, a new President and the repeal of Obamacare.


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## ohmt (Jul 17, 2012)

Well I don't think you have HGFarms because in at least one of the links I provided it explains how government will not be in charge and how it's being paid for. Or maybe it was tags? Hmmm...will have to look when I'm back on my computer. There are some doctors who are more superior in their specialties and they are spread all over the world. People come to the US for treatment from other countries, people from the US go to other countries for treatments. It's all in what it's for and the situation. To use that as the reason the US has a better health care system just doesn't make sense. We don't, as many studies have proven.

The best way to answer the last question-read it! At least skim through it. I'm working on it at the moment.


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

_Here's a recent article that should be concerning to all Americans:_

*Report: 83 percent of doctors have considered quitting over Obamacare*

Eighty-three percent of American physicians have considered leaving their practices over President Barack Obama’s health care reform law, according to a survey released by the Doctor Patient Medical Association.

The DPMA, a non-partisan association of doctors and patients, surveyed a random selection of 699 doctors nationwide. The survey found that the majority have thought about bailing out of their careers over the legislation, which was upheld last month by the Supreme Court.

Even if doctors do not quit their jobs over the ruling, America will face a shortage of at least 90,000 doctors by 2020. The new health care law increases demand for physicians by expanding insurance coverage. This change will exacerbate the current shortage as more Americans live past 65.

By 2025 the shortage will balloon to over 130,000, Len Marquez, the director of government relations at the American Association of Medical Colleges, told The Daily Caller.

“One of our primary concerns is that you’ve got an aging physician workforce and you have these new beneficiaries — these newly insured people — coming through the system,” he said. “There will be strains and there will be physician shortages.”

The DPMA found that many doctors do not believe the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act will lead to better access to medical care for the majority of Americans, co-founder of the DPMA Kathryn Serkes told TheDC.

“Doctors clearly understand what Washington does not — that a piece of paper that says you are ‘covered’ by insurance or ‘enrolled’ in Medicare or Medicaid does not translate to actual medical care when doctors can’t afford to see patients at the lowball payments, and patients have to jump through government and insurance company bureaucratic hoops,” she said. *(SEE ALSO: Jeremiah Wright: ‘White racist alien DNA’ running through synapses of Obama’s brain )*

The American Medical Association, which endorsed Obama’s health care overhaul, was not able to immediately offer comment on the survey. Spokesperson Heather Lasher Todd said it would take time to review the information in the survey.

Janelle Davis of the American Academy of Family Physicians said the AAFP could not provide thoughtful commentary without studying the survey’s findings and methodology.

Read more: http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz20unw0TxK


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## ohmt (Jul 17, 2012)

Funny, I was just reading about that survey





http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/statements/2012/jul/12/jeff-duncan/gop-lawmaker-jeff-duncan-repeats-survey-finding-83/

Couldn't get it all copied, but got most (on my phone)

As the House was taking another vote to repeal President Barack Obama’s health care law in mid July 2012, a number of Republicans offered a grim view of the health care system’s future under "Obamacare" by citing poll results that said many doctors were thinking about quitting.

One example: a July 10, 2012, tweet from Rep. Jeff Duncan, R-S.C., who wrote: "83% of doctors have considered leaving the profession because of #Obamacare #repealandreplace."

Many readers urged us to fact-check this statistic, which was circulated widely in the blogosphere in addition to being mentioned by other Republican lawmakers, such as Rep. Cathy McMorris Rogers of Washington state in an MSNBC interview.

We found it came from a survey by the Doctor Patient Medical Association Foundation, a group founded last fall that is opposed to the health care law.

The group asked: "How do current changes in the medical system affect your desire to practice medicine?" According to the group, 83 percent answered, "Makes me think about quitting," 5 percent said, "I’m re-energized," while 13 percent said they were unsure or had no opinion.

So while the number is right, it's important to examine whether Duncan has accurately explained the results.

Are the poll’s respondents actually talking about "Obamacare"?

Despite the linkage by Duncan and other lawmakers to Obama’s Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), as "Obamacare" is officially known, the question actually does not mention the law. In fact, none of the two dozen questions in the poll mentions anything about it.

Instead, the question asks about "current changes," which could include not just the law, but many other factors, such as changes driven by insurance companies and hospital systems. There’s no way of knowing what specifically the respondents were referring to.

In an interview, Kathryn Serkes, the founder and CEO of the Doctor Patient Medical Association, emphasized that the group was not asking specifically about the health care law. She noted that other findings in the survey painted a more nuanced picture than pure anti-Obamacare sentiment.

For instance, when asked to provide their top three choices for "who’s most to blame for current problems in medicine," 65 percent of respondents did choose "government involvement in general," but the next three categories were "health plans/insurance," "third-party payers" and "lawyers," with 50 percent, 42 percent and 42 percent, respectively. And while 27 percent cited "president" as one of their three choices, an almost equal number, 26 percent, cited "Congress," which is most visible today for a House Republican leadership that is dead-set against Obama’s health care law.

"What we know from the other answers in this survey is that there are two main things going on for doctors --government control and corporate control," Serkes said. "The rest of the results in the survey show doctors bemoaning corporatization as a very close second to government control. Many doctors don’t separate the two."

The poll’s sponsor

As with any poll, it’s always important to know who paid for it.

The group’s website says, "It is DPMA's position that PPACA is the Destruction Of Our Medicine, attempting to insert the government and bureaucrats between the relationship and decisions of medical professional and their patient." It was founded by a longtime representative of the Association of American Physicians and Surgeons, a group that stands for "individual liberty, personal responsibility, limited government, and the ability to freely practice medicine according to time-honored Hippocratic principles."

By itself, this doesn’t mean that the poll is untrustworthy. But it's important to consider that the group is strongly opposed to the law.

The poll’s methodology

Survey experts expressed some concerns about its design, noting that it's difficult to get accurate surveys on specific groups and occupations.

The DPMAF was transparent about its methodology. The survey was conducted by fax and online from April 18 to May 22, 2012. Of 16,227 faxes that were successfully delivered to doctors’ offices, 699, or 4.3 percent, submitted responses.

Experts said they were concerned with two aspects of the poll:

• Respondents weren’t given much of a middle ground. The choices for answering this question were "makes me think about quitting," "I’m re-energized" and "unsure/no opinion."

"It’s a poorly worded question that does not offer a complete range of likely alternatives, such as 'no effect,'" said Don Dillman, an expert in mail-based polls and a professor at Washington State University. Charles Franklin, a polling specialist at the University of Wisconsin, agreed that the response categories offered were "odd."

In addition, interpreting the question requires caution, because asking about whether someone has "considered" something as dramatic as quitting their lifelong profession is a long way from saying they will do so.

Serkes acknowledges this. "Do I expect doctors to quit en masse? " she said. "No, I don’t. Doctors don’t do anything en masse in the U.S."

• Because the response rate was only 4.3 percent, it’s hard to gauge how representative the survey was. A different recent survey of doctors with a similar response rate -- conducted by the Deloitte Center for Health Solutions -- took the extra step of weighting their sample "by years in practice, in combination with gender, region, and specialty to reflect the national distribution of physicians in the (American Medical Association) master file." DPMAF did not.

If a respondent knew about or could detect DPMAF’s conservative policy orientation from the questions, or if they learned about the group’s orientation during the weeks-long period they were given to turn in the survey, they might have been likelier to take part. If they disagreed with the group’s stance, they might have been less likely to take part.


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## Tab (Jul 17, 2012)

I have a little to add to this. I had a 10-pound dermoid removed and was found to have cancer of the ovary and fallopian tube. In researching I came across a woman from CANADA whose doctor would not remove a grapefruit-sized dermoid on her ovary because under Canada's healthcare it was considered an elective surgery. Don't tell me universal healthcare is so good! I am thankful to have had this sorted out before this disaster of a bill was passed. I'm also thankful for good private insurance and great doctors here in the USA! I agree with Jill, I pray a new president and the repeal of obamacare!


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## HGFarm (Jul 17, 2012)

I read a lot of 'ifs' and assumptions in there. So if the poll was given by another group that is for the healthcare plan and the results were the same with the same questions, would that mean anything? lol


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## HGFarm (Jul 17, 2012)

Many other countries that have health care provided are horribly lacking in many things. My sister lives overseas- they have NO well woman checks, no preventative medicine or exams for anything at all. It's up to you to request it and force the issue to get it- so most of it goes ignored. They figure if you are not sick what are you getting checked for?


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

Tab, I completely understand how you feel. I had something very scary too a few years ago, and I know first hand how great our system here works and the quality of our doctor's and facilities. It was less than one month between the time i found out I had a "leision" in my lung until I had the surgery to remove it (cancer) and most of my left lung from my body. In that space of time, I saw many specialists and had lots of high end diagnostics and an outpatient biopsy surgery. I don't think I'd have had that fast a treatment and cure anywhere but the USA.

Additionally, after this was behind me, I asked my regular doctor, my surgeon and my pulmonologist "what" woud have happened to me if I did not have insurance. It was interesting to me especially because Obamacare was just becoming the hot topic. All of them told me the same thing -- I'd have had all the same tests and the treatment. Some services would have been donated, but I'd have left with some BIG medical bills.

Well, call me crazy if you want but I'd rather be alive and broke than dead with some money in the bank.


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## ohmt (Jul 17, 2012)

Tab-Obamacare actually increases the number of people under private insurance. And Obamacare isn't called Canadacare. I am glad you are now healthy






HGFarm-of course you did. In there they talk about another poll that was done and no, the results were not the same.

Alright, I'm done. It's girls night so I'm off for more exciting things (like wine lol). Take care to all!


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

Another thing, too, is people often complain about the cost of healthcare here vs. other places -- including places I sure wouldn't want to be treated, like third world countries. Yes heathcare is expensive. Yes, we should make some changes (how about torte reform and allowing insurance to be sold across state lines as starters???). However, a socialized, big government take over of a huge sector of our economy and something vital to all of us and our families is the wrong answer. It's also going to further stifle the economy and cost real people real their jobs.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 17, 2012)

Tab said:


> I have a little to add to this. I had a 10-pound dermoid removed and was found to have cancer of the ovary and fallopian tube. In researching I came across a woman from CANADA whose doctor would not remove a grapefruit-sized dermoid on her ovary because under Canada's healthcare it was considered an elective surgery. Don't tell me universal healthcare is so good! I am thankful to have had this sorted out before this disaster of a bill was passed. I'm also thankful for good private insurance and great doctors here in the USA! I agree with Jill, I pray a new president and the repeal of obamacare!


That Doctor was a butt-head, so they are all incompetent fools here? Come on guys...give me a break. We get cancer here too, and other nasties, and somehow MANAGE...LOLOLOLOLOLOL! I would laugh harder if it wasn't so ridiculous.


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

Check into the mortality rates...


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## ozymandias (Jul 17, 2012)

I came from another progressive, developed, educated country (the U.K.) and I'm telling you from FIRST HAND experience....there is NO comparison between health care there and health care here. In fact it's so different I'd go as far as calling the U.Ks nationalized healthcare system stone age compared to here in the USA. I've also had relatives die there over issues that we would have caught on a routine yearly check up.

I have relatives there astounded at the treatment we get just during our yearly check ups...routine stuff they never get access to.

I'm talking from the unique situation of knowing BOTH systems first hand...I'm sorry...there IS no comparison. Give me my $1800 a month coverage anyday lol.


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## tagalong (Jul 17, 2012)

> It's also going to further stifle the economy and cost real people real their jobs.


Not actual known facts, just speculation - as is outlined in many non-partisan places and many of the links many of us have provided.

As far as Snopes being pro-Obama - I had to smile at that. _How so? Link please?_ Because they debunk a lot of the nonsense that has been said about him? They have also debunked nonsense about GWB, Sarah Palin etc. etc. etc. They are not PRO anyone. The only thing they are PRO - is facts. No matter who or what they are about.



> I would laugh harder if it wasn't so ridiculous.


It is more sad than ridiculous. Bad doctors, long waits and procedures not granted happen HERE as well - but some manage to overlook that. It is the Ostrich Syndrome = stick your head in the sand and pretend it does not happen - and voila!!! - it will be so.

So the premier of Newfoundland came south to the US for some heart specialist. Big deal. People who have the money can go all over North America to whatever specialist they choose. I know Canadians who have gone south to the States. I know Americans who have gone north to Canada. If you have the money, you can shop around as you please. Most of us do not have that luxury.

I have lived under both "systems" or lack thereof. I know many refuse to accept the first hand experiences and opinions of others - but seeing as my nest egg is GONE here due to health care bills and an unscheduled hospital stay.... I think my experiences should count more than second or third hand accounts. I have insurance. I simply could not pay enough of it to keep me out of that black hole - and most of you would be in the same boat. I hope that reality never rears up and smacks some of you down before you see that the "system" here is not perfect. And meanwhile, friends and family in Canada benefit from paying into healthcare (no, it is not FREE) and have had procedures and surgery scheduled and performed without delay, by top notch doctors and with no additional out of pocket cost. Even though it is often suggested here that when it comes to medicine, Canada is close to a third world country. The system there is not perfect either and its demise has been predicted for decades - and yet it is still working.

And again we must consider the congressman who asserted that people on the UK and Canada must wait for over a year for a hip replacement (strange - my mom had hers within 2 months) - and when asked how long it took here, he maintained that it was easy - you could practically just walk into an ER for one. Talk about clueless and disconnected...



I will dig up a link for that - I cannot remember the guy's name at the moment.

Obamacare is far from perfect and needs a lot of work, tweaking etc. A lot of it will not even come into effect until 2014. _But at least it is a start..._



> ​ Give me my $1800 a month coverage anyday lol.


Well, not all of us can come close to affording $1800 a month payments...



> I have relatives there astounded at the treatment we get just during our yearly check ups...routine stuff they never get access to.


Let's see - my friend up in Alberta was just telling me about her yearly checkup she had this week. It involved a mammogram, pelvic exam, pap smear, intense physical, cardio stress test, bloodwork, bone density scan and a lot of other things that I have already forgotten. Her routine stuff sounded very involved indeed - I wish I could do all that here! And I will have to at some point



- but only after I finish paying off these medical bills... and no, insurance will not cover all the costs of that kind of exam or all those tests. I checked. Maybe it would if I could afford $1800 a month...


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## ozymandias (Jul 17, 2012)

Tag, there are buses that go from the Pacific NW on a weekly basis to Canada so folks (usually older people) can get access to medications there that they couldn't purchase here because of the cost.

Our system here isn't perfect by a long shot. There are areas of our healthcare system that need fixing but this all or nothing, one party against the other makes me sick. How are we ever going to improve things while there this kindergarten attitude going back and forth between the parties. I wish we had some other political party options (that don't get washed away with the bath water) that if nothing else reign in the spoiled brat attitudes of the two we have.


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## ozymandias (Jul 17, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Well, not all of us can come close to affording $1800 a month payments...


I 100% agree with you...that's why I'm a lifelong republican not ruling out Obamacare. We're very fortunate that not only can we afford that - it doesn't make us blink twice...I have friends who go weeks with a toothache because they cant afford to get help. We can't have a healthcare system that's only affordable for the well off. It's not easy for families to have to decide between feeding a child or paying their premiums. We all know what the choice is they have to make. Our healthcare costs here are astronomical....something needs to be done, I think that's what Obama is trying to do.


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## tagalong (Jul 17, 2012)

> I wish we had some other political party options (that don't get washed away with the bath water) that if nothing else reign in the spoiled brat attitudes of the two we have.


AMEN.


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## ozymandias (Jul 17, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Let's see - my friend up in Alberta was just telling me about her yearly checkup she had this week. It involved a mammogram, pelvic exam, pap smear, intense physical, cardio stress test, bloodwork, bone density scan and a lot of other things that I have already forgotten. Her routine stuff sounded very involved indeed - I wish I could do all that here! And I will have to at some point
> 
> 
> 
> - but only after I finish paying off these medical bills... and no, insurance will not cover all the costs of that kind of exam or all those tests. I checked. Maybe it would if I could afford $1800 a month...


I hope you read that I was talking about the U.K. and not Canada. Looks like Canada may have some answers we should look at


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## Sonya (Jul 17, 2012)

$1800/month.....if I am forced into Obamacare, I will be paying even more than that...and my income is middleclass.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 17, 2012)

http://www.healthcare-now.org/u-s-ranks-last-among-high-income-nations-on-preventable-deaths

Not as current...http://www.allcountries.org/ranks/preventable_deaths_country_ranks_1997-1998_2002-2003_2008.html

http://www.photius.com/rankings/world_health_performance_ranks.html


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## Jill (Jul 18, 2012)

I hear you, Sonya... and the quality of care is worth more than money anyway. I see nothing good coming of Obamacare if it is not repealed under our next President.

And, you surely do not need a crystal ball to know it will cost jobs. I know it, and all the other business owners I've talked to about it know it, too. That's one thing about meeting a payroll and being responsible for your own standard of living -- you don't have a lot of trouble reading the writing on the wall. You can see the bottom line regardless of the spin from those who have never met a payroll, never worked in the private sector, do not understand the American Dream... or even respect it. (Obama, anyone?)


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## ozymandias (Jul 18, 2012)

Sue_C. said:


> http://www.healthcar...ventable-deaths
> 
> Not as current...http://www.allcountr...-2003_2008.html
> 
> http://www.photius.c...ance_ranks.html


Pretty sad figures Sue...almost as bad as our math and science rankings





There has to be an answer better than the existing system where people get desperately sick because they have no health coverage and put off simple fixes until they have massive problems.

There seems to be a number of people in this country who, in their personal pursuit of the almighty dollar, have lost their humanity and caring for those not quite as fortunate


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## Jill (Jul 18, 2012)

You know, also, over the years, I have seen fellow LB -- horse owning -- members claim they cannot afford health insurance. And they're celebrating Obamacare. I have to say, it's sweetly ironic that those who can afford horses and "can't afford" health insurance will be mandated to learn about budgeting and prioritizing as they will either have to purchase insurance or pay the tax penalty that will be imposed. Much as I love them, I know of nothing less truly _necessary_ than a herd of little horses.

Personally, I don't know anyone who is unwilling to see those who cannot help themselves receive help. And despite popular myth, Republicans are far more charitable (with their OWN money) than Democrats. It's just hard to feel a burning desire to sacrifice what you work hard so hard for to help those who choose not to help themselves. That's a feeling many people hold, myself included.


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## tagalong (Jul 18, 2012)

Hmmmmm.

Speaking just for myself even though the comment was a more general one, I do not own a herd of little ones. I do not even own ONE little one. I own an aged pasture puff Icelandic horse who is an airfern for most of the year and gets his regular trims and shots and worming etc. And I cannot afford $1800 a month and rather resent it being suggested that I should be able to do so easily.

That does NOT mean that I "choose not to help myself". Wow. I work hard, thanks. Very hard. The first thing I did when I moved here was find health insurance - and that was VERY hard as at the time very few companies offered single policies. But I guess I chose to help myself and scrambled to make sure I had some kind of insurance. And pay the most I can.

There are many people out there complaining about Healthcare reform who are just one accident or one illness or one prolonged hospital stay away from financial disaster. It can happen to you. It happened to me - and mine did not involve major surgery of any kind.

I just wish that people would stick to the facts about this topic - and not wallow in the myths that are spread as part of the lame political games that are always going on. Posters have supplied many links to show the actual statements and the actual figures - and yet we just hear the same myths that are not "known" and yet are presented as if they were verified and absolute. Leave those games to the politicians wrapped in their extensive and comfortable healthcare packages and out of touch with many of us Out Here.

The ironic thing is that if he is elected, Romney is going to have some kind of Romneycare going on at some point - he has already outlined healthcare changes he will make that are already in Obamacare. _No fretting about that? Where is the angst? The worry? The condemnation? The hyperventilating? _ Will all those upset about Obamacare and buying into every viral email or lame fear-mongering video be upset about that? I doubt it. It will still be the dreaded healthcare reform some insist is despicable and un-American and so on and so forth... but it will suddenly be wonderful and needed and awesome ...


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## MountainWoman (Jul 18, 2012)

Jill said:


> And despite popular myth, Republicans are far more charitable (with their OWN money) than Democrats.


Oh, I'm trying to be good but I can't let this one pass. Maybe there are certain democrats who have oodles of money who don't donate as much as the republicans who have oodles of money but there are many of us out there republicans AND democrats who do our best to give to those in need generously. Many, many of us tithe to our churches and go out of our way to help organizations with our money and time so I really don't think it's a party perogative to say one party is more generous than the other. I most respect people who do charity anonymously and don't go out of the way to draw attention to their generosity.

I had fantastic health care insurance, came down with a serious MRSA infection that ran up quite a few bills and then I was dumped by my insurance company and no insurance company would have me no matter the amount I could pay. I had to go without insurance for a few years until someone decided to take the risk and insure me again but every time I go to the doctor and file a claim, I get denied because supposedly it has something to do with my "pre-existing condition."

There is a real need for reform and change in the way we deliver healthcare. Those who can't pay for insurance are often deciding whether to pay the rent, eat food or provide other necessities of life. There is such a myth surrounding poverty and those who are struggling and they are often depicted as people who don't want to help themselves.

Sorry, but I believe if we have the money we waste on so many things in this country surely we can afford to put people first.


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## tagalong (Jul 18, 2012)

> I most respect people who do charity anonymously and don't go out of the way to draw attention to their generosity.


Ditto. It seems it must always come down to "sides" and how one is better than the other... when charity and giving is an individual thing and not dependent on being Right or Left or what political party you have aligned yourself with. I know cheap conservatives and miserly liberals - and also generous and charitable ones.



> Sorry, but I believe if we have the money we waste on so many things in this country surely we can afford to put people first.


Well said, *MountainWoman*.



> I hope you read that I was talking about the U.K. and not Canada. Looks like Canada may have some answers we should look at


Well, it may be more of a provincial thing than a national thing, *ozy*.





All I know is that was what was included in her yearly physical - amd I have not done most of those things because they are not covered by insurance and things are very tight right now. I have to be very careful and do that budgeting and prioritizing stuff that I am supposedly unaware of and/or bad at. I guess I am choosing not to help myself, right? How very irresponsible of me.


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## Jill (Jul 18, 2012)

Here you go, relevant information starts at about 2 minutes, 30 seconds in:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAzwiU8-7hc


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## Minimor (Jul 18, 2012)

> I don't think I'd have had that fast a treatment and cure anywhere but the USA.


sorry to disagree and burst your bubble, but I must point out that I had the exact same surgery, all necessary tests beforehand...in Canada...and I had a wait time of less than two weeks between diagnosis and surgery. As an added beneft I did NOT get sent home with chest tubes still in place. So yes, I can say with absolute certainty that you would have received equally good care--perhaps better care--in Canada!!!


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## tagalong (Jul 18, 2012)

So John Stossel on Fox News is pushing the fact that only Republicans/those on the right are charitable and giving etc, etc. etc. Considering that such polls only reflect small percentages of the total, and mulitple polls/surveys often disagree with each other, one can basically pick and choose the "results" as one pleases. Charity is an INDIVIDUAL thing and not determined by your political preferences or party or what news channel you watch... it is also not something you should be waving around as a banner to show how "good" you are. IMO that diminishes the sincerity of the act...



> So yes, I can say with absolute certainty that you would have received equally good care--perhaps better care--in Canada!!!


Shame on you,* minimor* - for sharing first hand facts/truth and not myths...


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## HGFarm (Jul 18, 2012)

I'm not saying this country is in serious need of a change in health care, but I dont think this is the answer. Why dont they clamp down on what the drug companies are charging people for meds? Especially when you can buy the same thing for PENNIES on the dollar in another country. Some of even over the counter. It's all about control and greed by the drug companies/insurance companies. It's not about saving lives and bettering people's lives.

Crack down- stop allowing insurance companies to reject people for health issues or pre existing conditions. They all need to stay out of the decision making MY DOCTOR has made and stay out of my bank account by allowing 'future transfers'. And the option that people are going to be fined if they can't afford insurance? How is that going to help? If they cant afford the cost of insurance, how are they going to afford a fine?!

Stop providing health care to illegals! Instead, provide that for the folks here who are destitute or dont have insurance (regardless of the reason- no job, cant afford, etc...) They cost this country 113 BILLION dollars a year.

Nobody has still responded regarding who is paying for all this, how the demand for more medical staffing is going to be met? It's already short now, just wait- and that is why you will take 6 months to get an appt to see anyone.


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## tagalong (Jul 18, 2012)

*HGF* - it does not take 6 months to get an appointment to see a doctor in Canada any more than it will here - depending on the doctor and the speciality and a host of other factors. My mom literally lives in the Back of Beyond, B.C. She gets in within a day or two. You can wait here in the US for a long time to see a doctor now - healthcare is not going to make that worse than it already is.

A lot of facts were presented - _as opposed to the myths and fearmongering_ - in links earlier in this thread and some of the* facts* there might lead towards answers and solutions.

And NO - Politifact and FactCheck and Snopes are not PRO or CON anyone. Reading them would show you that. They treat both "sides" the same way. It is about facts, not personalities or parties or Left or Right. Those sites make that very clear. Why are such fact-checking sites deemed pro-Obama - simply because they disprove a lot of the myths that are presented as fact? _They do that for everyone_ and they also find fault with Obama ALL THE TIME and expose his doublespeak etc. As well as anyone else who is caght lying and distorting the facts.

That is a balance you will never see at openly biased sources like MSNBC - sorry, NBC News, Fox News etc.


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## Sonya (Jul 18, 2012)

Who is going to pay for this someone asked....you, me, and the rest of the middle class. 75% is going to be payed by the middle class.


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## Matt73 (Jul 18, 2012)

Sorry....haven't read the whole thread, but the whole idea/scare tactic that Canada's health care system is horrific is so laughable to all of us up here in our igloos. Good Lord. Talk about propaganda..... The longest I've waited to see my doctor or a specialist is 1 week.


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## HGFarm (Jul 18, 2012)

Ok I have a family member here who gets medical through the VA. It is literally MONTHS, no matter how urgent the problem, before he is able to see a doctor. It's ridiculous. If he has something that is urgent, he has to literally go to urgent care to get anything looked at. Who runs the VA stuff here? THE GOVERNMENT


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## ozymandias (Jul 18, 2012)

Minimor said:


> sorry to disagree and burst your bubble, but I must point out that I had the exact same surgery, all necessary tests beforehand...in Canada...and I had a wait time of less than two weeks between diagnosis and surgery. As an added beneft I did NOT get sent home with chest tubes still in place. So yes, I can say with absolute certainty that you would have received equally good care--perhaps better care--in Canada!!!


I think we could learn a lot from Canada


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## ohmt (Jul 18, 2012)

No Sonya, 75% is not going to be paid by middle class. A few of the links already posted show that-from politifact I believe.


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## Sonya (Jul 19, 2012)

...and I can post links that will show you that yes the middleclass is going to pay for this and pay dearly but they will be discredited...and by the way snopes is one of the most liberal sites out there. I will say that if this system is going to be like the VA hospitals, we are severly screwed. I don't live in Canada so I can't comment much on their system although I do have some relatives in Canada and all they do is complain...thankfully they haven't had any major health issues but they do come to the U.S. For preventive care because they say they can't get it in Canada...at least not timely.


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## Minimor (Jul 19, 2012)

That's too bad Sonya that your family up here doesn't get timely health care. Perhaps it depends where one lives & how plentiful doctors are. Here I never have to wait more than a few days to get an appointment with my doctor. There are times when I phone in & ask for an appointment & get offered one that very day, or perhaps the following day. If my doctor is on vacation of course I might wait a week or two for him to get back, but there is also walk-in if it's urgent. When I go to walk-in the doctor has all my clinic records available, so I still get good care.

Of all the people I know, I know of just two that went by their own choice to the US for health care--both cancer patients who felt that they could get better or faster treatment in the US. I don't know if it really was better or even faster--it didn't benefit them any because both passed away very soon after treatment. I know one person that was sent to the Mayo clinic because a doctor there specialized in his particular condition; likewise there are people who get referred to specialists in Toronto or Montreal or Vancouver, it depends on the conditon and where the best treatment option is. We do have very good specialists in Winnipeg so the majority of patients get excellent care right here at home. We now have a Cancer Care center here in Brandon, so cancer patients no longer have to travel to get their treatments.

There have been some doctor shortages in rural Manitoba; in this particular area that is not a problem now. We've had some new doctors come to town, and they are still accepting new patients. Of course we've had a few crappy physicians here too--My mom had one of those a few years back. Happily he left town--moved to somewhere in the US--so if you think you're getting better care because you pay for your doctor visits, perhaps that isn't the case. Someone on this very forum could very well be seeing that doctor that we were happy to see gone!! As for him--he's just getting better paid for his substandard services now that he is south of the border.


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## Jill (Jul 19, 2012)

Sonya said:


> ...and I can post links that will show you that yes the middleclass is going to pay for this and pay dearly but they will be discredited...and by the way snopes is one of the most liberal sites out there. I will say that if this system is going to be like the VA hospitals, we are severly screwed. I don't live in Canada so I can't comment much on their system although I do have some relatives in Canada and all they do is complain...thankfully they haven't had any major health issues but they do come to the U.S. For preventive care because they say they can't get it in Canada...at least not timely.


You're saying exactly what I've heard and read -- time and time again, source after repeated source


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## Minimor (Jul 19, 2012)

Seriously Tab, here in Canada people get treated for ovarian cysts/tumors of all kinds ecery day. Prople get treated for ovarian cancer and cancer of the fallopian tubes every day. The fact that you heard of one woman who had a jerk of a doctor who wouldn't treat her doesn't mean our entire health care ststem is a disaster! I bet there are as many screw ups in your health care system as there are in ours. I bet you have some crooked doctors too!


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## ohmt (Jul 19, 2012)

Oh Sonya, please do. I'd like to see what source you're using that's better/more credible than politifact.

It's very easy to find all the biased and false information you'd like, especially on the internet. It's not as easy to do your homework using as unbiased sources as possible that actually do their research.


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## Jill (Jul 19, 2012)

Silly Conservatives... We know only the liberals links are unbiased and acurate They and their lefty outlets keep saying so, so it must true.


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## ohmt (Jul 19, 2012)

Never said that, Jill



But if you feel the need to belittle without showing your unbiased sources, go for it.


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## tagalong (Jul 19, 2012)

> We know only the liberals links are unbiased and acurate They and their lefty outlets keep saying so, so it must true.


And FoxNews brays they are fair and balanced - so it must be true! Not.

FactCheck and Politifact are NOT media venues - they are what they say they are - fact checkers. However inconvenient that may be to those who prefer that their "facts" suit a specific agenda.

A close examination of what Politifact and FactCheck do would show ANYONE without a predisposed "opinion" that they are not biased. Look at them. Actually _read _there as opposed to taking someone's word for it that they are biased. They dissect everything about everyone and do not sugarcoat anything, They do not favour Obama - wow - I guess all those lists of promises he has not kept and things he has done or said wrong are imaginary!! Nothing is based on right or left or preferences or party lines - just FACTS and repeated links to back them up. And the bigger media outlets like Fox often use them as unbiased sources/fact checkers.

But if the facts do not line up with some opinion piece or a biased talking head who picks and choses what facts he/she will use or discard to suit whatever purpose (and yes, this happens on both "sides") then surely the facts must be wrong!! And the fact checking source must therefore be biased, evil - or some other dismissive term like.... what was it? Oh yes... "lefty".

And no, I am not "going after" specific posters as I have been wrongly accused of in the past - I am addressing the comment /post and not the poster.

May I please see a link to an unbiased source that shows how Snopes (for instance) is "liberal"?? I guess I did not know that investigating Nigerian princes who email you to ask you to send them money was only a liberal issue... or that an email telling you that you won a lottery in Izbekazkhistan and you need to send them $5,000 in order for them to send you $5,000,000 was just a liberal thing... or investigating all the rumours and tales about hidden messages in Disney movies was a liberal affair.. or disproving the "fact" that if you share a specific email and link with all your friends, it is a way for Microsoft to test their new mail program and Bill Gates will send you $$ for every person you contact. Most of Snopes is not even political!







> What about the raid on the home of the naturopath doctor in Canada by health Canada. He was selling herbal supplements. He and his family were raided at gunpoint for stuff like vitamin E. He had assured his wife he was living in a free country and she would not experience something like this and later had to watch while they were pointing the gun at her.


May we have a link to this story, please? I would love to read this in its entirety...

ETA: Never mind - found it! Although I will have to unwind the facts from the pontifications and protests to find out what was basically going on there...


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## tagalong (Jul 19, 2012)

Thanks - I already saw that one - I am looking at a variety of sources to try and separate the angst from the actual events...


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## Lizzie (Jul 19, 2012)

Health care in the US, is an abysmal mess. There again, it seems that the entire US is in a mess these days.

I remember years ago, there was always talk among Americans, of how poor the health system was in England. I never found it so. My cousin and her husband in Wales, both in their late 60s, recently each had a hip replacement. They are reasonably well off, compared to many in the US. Own their own home, free and clear and also their car. Not one penny came out of their pocket, for the surgeries.

My own mother and father-in-law, finally went bankrupt and had to live with us to end their days. This after owning in earlier life, a large part of the Las Vegas Strip. Every penny they had, eventually went into their health care, doctors and hospitals. How many others through the years, have lost everything, due to illness? Hundreds of thousands I imagine.

I don't know what the answer is. There are serious flaws in every idea put forward.

Lizzie


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## Tab (Jul 19, 2012)

This is what it comes down to. Who are you going to believe, really? The government, and its absolute power, or the little guy testifying against it. They could have just as well put it under a drug raid and not being there none of us would ever know the truth of the matter. I would take his side over theirs any day of the week. I really wonder what he would say if he could defend himself on this forum. I also wonder how much truth there is to them "distributing steroids," or if that was government terminology for the sale of supplements/amino acids like L Tryptophan? Was his testimony the truth and them saying it was steroids to cover their butts for making a mistake? He also mentions he was born into naturopathic medicine. At one time what he did would be considered an apprenticeship here, and I'm also interested in what it takes in Canada to be certified, and also how long there has been a law for naturopathic certification in Canada?

I am not against Canada, I've been there a couple of times. I am against universal healthcare and this bill. Who says just because other countries are doing it that it's right for us? There is evidence against it. What we have for government insurance here already gets a big fat F, ask the elderly. I know that in the USA, the more restrictions and laws passed the less freedom/room to breathe/ability to live freely there is, and the more difficult every day life is for everyone here; medical professionals and citizens, it is just a mess.

I have been through enough in the past few months not to give a flying flip what any of you have to say against me, simply because you disagree with me.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 19, 2012)

Tab said:


> This is what it comes down to. Who are you going to believe, really? The government, and its absolute power, or the little guy testifying against it. They could have just as well put it under a drug raid and not being there none of us would ever know the truth of the matter. I would take his side over theirs any day of the week. I really wonder what he would say if he could defend himself on this forum. I also wonder how much truth there is to them "distributing steroids," or if that was government terminology for the sale of supplements/amino acids like L Tryptophan? Was his testimony the truth and them saying it was steroids to cover their butts for making a mistake? He also mentions he was born into naturopathic medicine. At one time what he did would be considered an apprenticeship here, and I'm also interested in what it takes in Canada to be certified, and also how long there has been a law for naturopathic certification in Canada?
> 
> I am not against Canada, I've been there a couple of times. I am against universal healthcare and this bill. Who says just because other countries are doing it that it's right for us? There is evidence against it. What we have for government insurance here already gets a big fat F, ask the elderly. I know that in the USA, the more restrictions and laws passed the less freedom/room to breathe/ability to live freely there is, and the more difficult every day life is for everyone here; medical professionals and citizens, it is just a mess.
> 
> I have been through enough in the past few months not to give a flying flip what any of you have to say against me, simply because you disagree with me.


Apparently the US and Canada (eh?) developed it about the same time...I find the last para of substantial interest.



> The term "naturopathy" is derived from Greek and Latin, and literally translates as "nature disease".[3] Modern naturopathy grew out of the Natural Cure movement of Europe.[4][5] The term was coined in 1895 by John Scheel and popularized by Benedict Lust,[6] the "father of U.S. naturopathy".[7] Beginning in the 1970s, there was a revival of interest in the United States and Canada in conjunction with the holistic health movement.[7][8]Naturopathic practitioners are split into two groups, traditional naturopaths and naturopathic physicians.[3] Naturopathic physicians employ the principles of naturopathy within the context of conventional medical practices. Naturopathy comprises many different treatment modalities of varying degrees of acceptance by the conventional medical community; these treatments range from standard evidence-based treatments, to homeopathy and other practices sometimes characterized aspseudoscience.
> 
> Naturopathy is practiced in many countries, primarily the United States and Canada,[_verification needed_] and is subject to different standards of regulation and levels of acceptance. The scope of practice varies widely between jurisdictions, and naturopaths in unregulated jurisdictions may use the Naturopathic Doctor designation or other titles regardless of level of education.[9]
> 
> ...


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## ozymandias (Jul 19, 2012)

tagalong said:


> And that is what happens when you do not take one video or one source or one view/agenda as The Truth - the actual truth emerges.
> 
> Facts are such pesky, inconvenient little things.


Thank you ML and Danielle for exposing the actual facts and to Tag for a comment that's so true !!!

Hey if someone posts a video or silly cartoon....it's gotta be true right after all the media wouldn't lie to us to boost ratings


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## HGFarm (Jul 19, 2012)

Interesting article that just popped up on the internet

http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/experts-argue-obamacare-mistake-could-doom-key-part-212811734.html


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## Jill (Jul 20, 2012)

Thanks for sharing that article, Laurie. I'm going to add it to my Facebook page where more people will see it, appreciate it, and share it along





If we don't get rid of the widely unpopular Obamacare, as it is now, most of the costs will fall on the shoulders of middle class Americans. It will cost jobs. It will cause shortages and rationing. It will cost lives. I don't live in the land of liberal la-la, and don't have a crystal ball. But an understanding of business, the "free" market, and basic math give a person the tools to figure it out.

As was eluded to early in the thread, there's a tight core of those here on LB who passionately backed Obama in 2008. Even though Obama has spent the past three and a half years showing us all exactly why he does not deserve a second chance, they just cannot put down the torch.


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## Danielle_E. (Jul 20, 2012)

I am sorry but since you do not work at Health Canada what you are referencing is baloney. Please do further research and get some FACTS, please.



Shiv Chopra and a few other of the scientists that worked for Health Canada were let go for a reason that is between them and Human Relations Division and all I can tell you is it goes ALOT deeper than what you think or know but hey don't take my word for it, I just work here and know nothing. Please dig a little deeper to get the truth but perhaps you prefer to only look at one side, as many people did with the "good doctor" who isn't even a doctor. You can not educate those that refuse to look at both sides and who do not feel the need to get the entire picture before posting innacurate things and untruful things. I can't be bothered to try and educate those that do not wish to be educated, sorry if that seems harsh. I am on my break at the moment and could probably give you facts that you wouldn't want to hear, facts that I know are correct and first hand knowledge. You can believe whatever you want to believe and you can do a disservice by regurgitating these to others who wil also take the above as truth.

Okay, have a nice weekend everyone, getting off my rant


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## tagalong (Jul 20, 2012)

> Danielle, I do not want to post anything misleading, and I have not.


But you did not note that the guy has had a criminal past, and that he is not the "innocent victim" he has duped others into believing he is....

*Tab* - please explain why you think this smooth operator is beyond reproach and a shining example of... well, lies and deceit, to be honest. You support "doctors" lying about the fact that they are not doctors in any way and misrepresenting themselves to patients? And breaking the law? Smuggling? Dealing in banned substances? You support all that? Would it be peachy keen if it occurred in Pennsylvania and he told the same lies?



> Watch these incredible 1 minute videos which were made by a famous Canadian actor Nick Mancuso.


I did not realize that famous actors inmmediately lend complete credibility to every pet cause they may support. The next time a bunch of actors tell me who to vote for or who not to vote for or what to do... and produce overly melodramatic videos to champion their cause - I will immediately agree with them. Okay - that was sarcasm... but Nick Mancuso is also not a "doctor". I am sure Johnny Depp has some pearls of wisdom to impart about ... something!

I have to ask why you even care about Dahl and his illegal activities and his lies. Are you a naturopath of some kind? You are in Pennsylvania. His tall tales do not affect you in any way. And he is not exactly the kind of poster child that anyone should be waving around as an example of bad healthcare in Canada. Smuggling in banned substances?? It was not vitamin E. Is it okay to break the law in PA to suit your own purposes and practice fraud? I doubt it. But apparently some Americans feel it is okay to do so in Canada? I guess I do not understand that.

The "National Health Freedom" group seems to have no issues about supporting fraud, lies and illegal smuggling for personal gain... so it is hard to take any good points they may raise seriously.



> It will cause shortages and rationing. It will cost lives.


Fearmongering again - not facts. But as was noted earlier in this thread _multiple_ times, facts (with backed up, verified and cross-checked links provided) are conveniently ignored, downplayed and sidestepped in favour of agendas.

And no, I do not support ANY politician or any political party blindly. Never have, never will.

If Romney gets elected and those elements of Romneycare he wants to get started are put through (many of which are already in Obamacare) - the hypocrisy that will be on display will be very... interesting or sad, I am not sure which.


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## Sonya (Jul 20, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Snuggling is against the law.. in BOTH countries..


Really? lol, I know this is a serious conversaton, but thought I'd make light of this....made me smile.

A friend one time put on her FB status that she was going to "stain the deck today"...well her typo was she accidently put an I where the E goes on deck...lol.


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## tagalong (Jul 20, 2012)

> As for drug smuggling.. it goes BOTH ways.. I have a friend in Michigan that wanted me to bring her a few bottles of Proenzi 99 plus Ephedra pills next time I visit a year or so ago.. I can buy them over the counter here in Canada but they are BANNED in the U.S. by FDA.. I kind of passed on bringing them because if I got caught going through customs with them, I would be in trouble.. You do not want to mess with custom officers on BOTH sides of the border.. They take their jobs serious..


Well said, *ML*. But I wonder where the outrage about FDA banning certain substances here is... where is the angst and the Brad Pitt video? Where is the phony "doctor" who wallows in fraud and lies and pretends to be a victim?



> Really? lol, I know this is a serious conversaton, but thought I'd make light of this....made me smile.


You beat me to it, *Sonya*! Well done - and it made me smile, too...


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## susanne (Jul 20, 2012)

WELL -- if snuggling is against the law, then I guess I'm a criminal!

We should start a thread on favorite typos -- I was guilty of a real snorker back when I had my eye surgery. They were putting a gas bubble in my eye, so I wanted to know if I would "fart when I blink." To everyone's amusement, I asked if I would "fart when I boink." Hmm...


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## Riverrose28 (Jul 20, 2012)

http://www.dailyfinance.com/2012/07/20/obamacare-lie-medicare-premiums-will-soar/


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## Mona (Jul 20, 2012)

> To everyone's amusement, I asked if I would "fart when I boink."


LOL Susannne...that was a good one!!


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## Jill (Jul 20, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> It was good enough for Romney in Mass, why is it not good enough for the rest of the country?


Obamacare and Romneycare are far from interchangeable.


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## Sonya (Jul 20, 2012)

In most cases, Obamacare Is going to cost the middleclass family more than them purchasing their own insurance (which IS not going to be available in the future like it is currently)...so if one can't afford private insurance now what makes one think you will afford Obamacare? You won't, you will be tracked down by the IRS and pay the penalty....and still not have insurance.

Note: it will also be cheaper for employers to pay the penalty than to pay for Obamacare or any other private insurance...what do you think that will do to those that are provided insurance through their work?

It is clear that the U.S. Gov't is not capable of running healthcare, look at Medicaide/Medicare...seniors dying because they are denied simple life saving meds...VA hospitals conditions are horrible, Veterans waiting months for care...

What makes the US great is not our politicians or even their policies...it is the people...hard working, striving, creating businesses and jobs...sadly that is slowly going away, we are becoming a nation that wants the gov't to handle everything for us....and that is doom. I am not one of those people...I do not want the gov't in charge of my healthcare. Regardless of how many links you show me, I can gaurantee this is one more step in a direction that will mean doom for the US.


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## tagalong (Jul 20, 2012)

*Sonya*, many of the "facts" you have related are not - as has already been noted in this thread - and are easily researched. Try to avoid biased opinion pieces that do not care about the facts and often only link to yet more "opinions" masquerading as facts. Unfortunately - they are hard to wade through.

Links have been posted in this thread that you can use to check everything out for yourself - and yet I know that some will not bother as what they read will not meet the speciifc agenda and the "facts (opinions)" they have embraced.

Where is the chart showing how a lot of what Romney said he was going to do about healthcare is ALREADY in Obamacare? You will never see a chart like that on a website called AmericaNeedsMitt.com... nope. That will be ignored - in the hope that others will ignore it as well.

Hypocrisy exists on both sides - it is not all just "lefties" as we are dismissively told in many of these threads.


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## Sonya (Jul 20, 2012)

Well Tag I did research it and if I am forced into Obamacare it will cost me over $2500/month, I can currently purchase healthcare way cheaper (and better) than that for half the cost a month through private ins....so tell me, folks who are in the same bracket (middleclass) as myself and have chosen to not purchase insurance (perhaps they are living above their means or have chosen luxuries over health ins.) are going to purchase Obamacare? They won't, they will pay the penalty tax of $4700 a year and still not have insurance. As I said I don't want gov't in charge of my healthcare period...Romneycare or Obamacare....go visit a VA hospital or talk to some people on Medicare and you will see why! There was a time in my life where I did not have insurance (new job slightly over minimum wage with a waiting period) and racked up some serious bills due to a collapsed lung and 3 weeks in the hospital...I was never denied care, I was provided top notch care....it took me 15 years to pay it off but I did, just like my student loans...it was a bill I aquired and I paid it like I was suppose to, no different than any other bill. The reason healthcare is so costly is because some folks chose things like fancy cars, houses, even horses over paying their medical bills or buying insurance.

If I knew the answer to the healthcare issues I would certainly provide it, but I know for a fact putting our gov't in charge of it is not the answer.


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## vickie gee (Jul 20, 2012)

Sonya, I guess since I work for Uncle Sam and see how mismanaged taxpayer dollars are on a daily basis it even irks me all the more. You are hitting the nail right smack dab on the head. I personally know two different people that transferred to work at my installation to get away from the VA hospital in Little Rock. They do not even know each other but both have said that hospital "is ran by Satan himself." On the other hand I do feel that the VA hospital in Shreveport is one of the better ones.

Jill, thanks for posting the comparisons. Not exactly two peas in a pod.

Tab, it is good to hear from you. I still pray for you every day.


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## Sonya (Jul 20, 2012)

I also work for Uncle Sam Vickie, so I definately understand.


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## Margo_C-T (Jul 21, 2012)

BRAVO, Sonya...BRAVO!

Margo


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## tagalong (Jul 21, 2012)

> If I knew the answer to the healthcare issues I would certainly provide it, but I know for a fact putting our gov&#39;t in charge of it is not the answer.


Well, the way it is going now is also not the answer. I may not like everything about Obamacare - but it is a start. If Romney is elected, he will also make a start - as he should, IMO. One thing I do know - is that if Romney is elected and he gets his interpretation of Romneycare going - the rampant hypocrisy we will see from some pundits and talking heads will make all of our heads spin...



- suddenly healthcare will be the best thing ever!

Sonya - it may be that if healthcare did go through and get finalized , the monthly fees may not wind up being what research through certain sources would tell you.



> The reason healthcare is so costly is because some folks chose things like fancy cars, houses, even horses over paying their medical bills or buying insurance.


If only it was that simplistic - but unfortunately that is not what determines the cost of healthcare... it is far more complicated than that.

Here is an interesting quiz - which is which... *Obamacare or Romneycare? *A live link in here screwed everything up and brought up all the coding - so I had to pull the live links for now...

1. Individuals who are deemed able to afford health insurance but fail to comply are subject to penalties for each month of non-compliance in the tax year. The penalties, which will be imposed through the individual's personal income tax return, shall not exceed 50% of the minimum monthly insurance premium.

2. Employers who employ 11 or more full-time equivalent employees and do not make a fair and reasonable contribution to their employees health insurance are required to pay a fine.

3. Tax credits to make it easier for the middle class to afford insurance will become available for people with income between 100 percent and 400 percent of the poverty line who are not eligible for other affordable coverage.

4. Children and adolescents up to age 18 whose financial eligibility as determined by the division exceeds 133 per cent but is not more than 300 per cent of the federal poverty level will be eligible for Medicaid.

5. Americans who earn less than 133 percent of the poverty level (approximately $14,000 for an individual and $29,000 for a family of four) will be eligible to enroll in Medicaid.

6. A recent poll asked people whether they had a generally favorable or unfavorable view of the health plan. Responses split 41 percent and 41 percent between favoring and not favoring. Another 18 percent said they were undecided.

7. Small businesses qualify for tax credits if they pay for at least half of the workers health insurance. A small business is defined as having fewer than 25 full-time workers paid average annual wages below $50,000.

8. Experience shows the plan is not significantly going to lower costs. Supporters of the law are actively considering new legislation aimed at cost containment.

9. The plan creates a Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute to conduct research to provide information about the best available evidence to help patients and their health care providers make more informed decisions.

10. For individuals who make more than $200,000 or couples that make more than $250,000, the plan increases Medicare taxes on wages in 2013 by 0.9 percent and imposes a 3.8 percent tax on investment income.

****************

1. RomneyCare

_Source: Massachusetts Department of Revenue, TIR 09-25: Individual Mandate Penalties for Tax Year 2010_

_Note: Both plans have individual mandates. The federal penalties start small, but eventually ramp up to $695 per year or 2.5 percent of income, whichever is higher. Eventually, federal penalties will tend to be higher than the Massachusetts plan._

2. RomneyCare

_Source: Massachusetts Department of Revenue, Health Care Information for Employers_

_Note: Federal law exempts employers with fewer than 50 workers. Additionally, under the federal plan, employers pay fines only if their workers qualify for tax credits to buy insurance._

3. ObamaCare

_Source: HealthCare.gov, Provisions of the Affordable Care Act, By Year_

_Note: The Massachusetts law also provides subsidized health insurance, but the income cut-off is 300 percent of the federal poverty level._

4. RomneyCare

_Source: Massachusetts health care law_

_Note: The Massachusetts law expanded Medicaid for children. The federal law expands Medicaid to adults, but sets the cut-off at 133 percent of the federal poverty level._

5. ObamaCare

_Source: HealthCare.gov, Provisions of the Affordable Care Act, By Year_

_Note: The Massachusetts law expanded Medicaid for children. The federal law expands Medicaid to adults, but sets the cut-off at 133 percent of the federal poverty level._

6. ObamaCare

_Source: The Kaiser Family Foundation, Kaiser Health Tracking Poll, April 2011_

_Note: Polls show the federal law has split public opinion._

7. ObamaCare

_Source: Internal Revenue Service, Small Business Health Care Tax Credit for Small Employers_

_Note: Tax credits start at 35 percent of the employer's health premium costs and increase to 50 percent in 2014._

8. RomneyCare

_Source: Gov. Deval Patrick, Patrick-Murphy administration proposes comprehensive health care cost containment legislation, Feb. 17, 2011, AP, Lawmakers hear bill to rein in Mass. health costs, May 16, 2011_

9. ObamaCare

_Source: U.S. Government Accountability Office, Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (PCORI) Governing Board, Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute (PCORI)_

10. ObamaCare

_Source: Kaiser Family Foundation, "summary of new health reform law"_


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## Sonya (Jul 21, 2012)

When I didn't have insurance and working on a payment plan with a hospital, my bill was reduced significantly from the original charge....why? She flat out told me that costs were inflated to insurance companies so the hospital could make up their losses from those who don't have insurance and don't pay the hospital....they have different prices for different insurance companies as well and if I am paying on my own, the cost is much less because they are not inflating the cost to make up for their losses. So yes palrt of the high costs are because of others that don't pay...it came right from the horses mouth. I'm sure there are other reason that costs are so high but non payment is definately one.

Thanks Margo


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## tagalong (Jul 21, 2012)

> So yes part of the high costs are because of others that don't pay...it came right from the horses mouth. I'm sure there are other reasons as welk that costs are so high but non payment is one of them.


And therefore if everyone pays something, it figures that the cost will be lower.



> When I didn't have insurance and working on a payment plan with a hospital, my bill was reduced significantly from the original charge....why?


That is great that they worked with you that way. When I had to come up with huge amounts of $$$ after 5 days in the hospital and insurance only covered half of it - the bill was not reduced by the hospital in any way. Not a chance.

One doctor I saw at the ER for only about 3 minutes cost me $450. The next one I saw for about the same amount of time was twice that - and those were the cheapest items on the bill(s). I paid the minimum on all of them until I had them paid off - and I have been left with no savings/nest egg. Nothing. No cushion. Oh well. Back to living paycheck to paycheck but it is what it is.






Even if you have all the insurance you can afford, you can be wiped out by one emergency... and IMO many out there bellowing about healthcare have no concept of that and think it will never happen to them. And when some of the loudest brayers are members of Congress who have a very nice benefit/healthcare package, I just sigh at the hypocrisy. _Do as I say and not as I do_ over and over again...


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## Margo_C-T (Jul 23, 2012)

I would certainly agree that Congress should be required by law to have only the SAME programs of benefits/healthcare available to everyone else, and on the same terms.

Margo


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## susanne (Jul 23, 2012)

I totally agree, Margo, and I believe most everyone (except those in congress) would agree, no matter what their side in this debate.


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## Tab (Jul 23, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Tab, it is good to hear from you. I still pray for you every day.


Thank you Vickie, Know that your prayers have made a difference!

Speaking to some of you who put your trust in popular news sources; hope that there doesn't come a day where you are under media scrutiny, because to embellish the truth to sell their magazines, papers, or broadcasts, to push their liberal agendas, or to cover up their mistakes, they lie. People are going to then choose the media lies over your truth. Few are going to come to you to get it straight from the source, fewer people are going to believe you having first heard the fairy tales in the paper.

Also, I hear the most about fear mongering in the US from the side of the aisle that wants to ban guns, says people are making the planet unlivable, and impose silly yet constrictive rules on the people to protect us from ourselves. It seems a lot like fear mongering in action to me!


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## ohmt (Jul 23, 2012)

Well that was a rather ironic post, Tab


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## Jill (Jul 23, 2012)

I don't see any irony in your post, Tab, and appreciate it word for word.


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## Riverrose28 (Jul 23, 2012)

Tab, I'm neither right nor left, I'm in the middle, yes I own a 22 rifle, and two hunting shotguns, but I do feel that assault rifles such as automatics should be banned from the general public. We've seen too often the pain that they inflick, they belong with the military. Yes I do feel that some are making Mother EArth inhabitable, they are using up resources and depleting reserves. There are litterers, hoarders, trashy people that throw garbage into our oceans and on our lands, they pollute the air, then complain. I go out every day and pick up litter from in front of my farm from people that can't be bothered to take it home and dispose of it. We all need to come together and protect Mother EArth, we need to respect her, the sky, and the oceans! If you are against this, then I'm sorry, but we all have to live here and preserve what we have for future generations. Yes, I'm proud Cherokee and this is my land, is it yours too?


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## ozymandias (Jul 23, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> Tab, I'm neither right nor left, I'm in the middle, yes I own a 22 rifle, and two hunting shotguns, but I do feel that assault rifles such as automatics should be banned from the general public. We've seen too often the pain that they inflick, they belong with the military. Yes I do feel that some are making Mother EArth inhabitable, they are using up resources and depleting reserves. There are litterers, hoarders, trashy people that throw garbage into our oceans and on our lands, they pollute the air, then complain. I go out every day and pick up litter from in front of my farm from people that can't be bothered to take it home and dispose of it. We all need to come together and protect Mother EArth, we need to respect her, the sky, and the oceans! If you are against this, then I'm sorry, but we all have to live here and preserve what we have for future generations. Yes, I'm proud Cherokee and this is my land, is it yours too?


Well said Riverrose





Guess when you think you're heading off to a "better place" after this one there's not much incentive to take care of our Mother Earth is there



I personally couldn't think of a better place than right here - looking out over snow capped mountains from the middle of a 2000 year old Juniper forest



And back to the O.P. I got to have a little chuckle that Mrs. Butineedanotherhorsebeforehealthinsurance may have to fork out for her coverage rather than have me pay extra for mine so she's covered


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## Flying minis (Jul 23, 2012)

Ok, so normally I wouldn't post. . . BUT I work for one of those "big and bad" pharmaceutical companies, and would like to add my 2 cents. Are drugs expensive? Yup. Does the US subsidize the lower cost of drugs in the rest of the world? Yes. We pay more so others can pay less. Do you know what it takes to develop a new drug? Right now my company has the lowest cost per new drug approval of any major pharma - at $3.9 BILLION per drug. . . . patent usually has 10-12 years left by the time that the drug is approved, and patent fights will add a few more billion to the cost, before generics come in and undercut the price. ( By the way, the reason generics can be so much less expensive, is because they have no research needed, and very little confirmatory testing (we also have a generics business in my company), they essentially utilize the research of the innovator company). When you say pharma companies don't care for patients, who exactly are you talking about? The executives, the line workers? Our company is nearly 100,000 people - all of whom have families with members who have health issues - of anyone, trust me, pharma employees and executives think of the patients when they are making medicines.

With that all said, you still need to realize that prescription drugs are only a small fraction of health care spending, however, they tend to be the portion that almost everyone sees. A huge number of people take some type of medication - more than those who have catastrophic health bills. But we have to understand that we have a healthcare system that has MULTIPLE issues, and that it needs a holistic review and analysis of the REAL causes of high costs - which include high insurance costs for doctors and a legal system that allows multimillion dollar court settlements for mistakes or errors. Tort reform MUST be included with health care reform - but since Congress is run by lawyers, that's unlikely to ever happen.

Along with that, people need to realize that not everyone needs or should have every medical test / treatment there is. . .If it sounds cold hearted, then I guess it is. . . should my husband's best friend, a lifelong meth addict and dealer, have gotten Medicaid to pay for a full set of dental implants when he was terminal with Stage 4 colon cancer? Really? Should we all be given the latest and greatest blood pressure drugs because we don't want to exercise and eat right (and I'm included in that group by the way)? Does a 95 year old need a quadruple bypass (actual situation, paid for by Medicare - my sister-in-laws mother)? And above all, we need to understand that EVERYTHING in life has risk, and the risk / benefit and cost/benefit both have to be considered.

And here's probably my biggest issue - we need to realize we're all going to die. I see so many people that it seems like they will do anything to avoid death. . . .including whatever it takes at whatever cost to stave it off, no matter who has to pay, instead of taking the time they have to enjoy and appreciate life.


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## ozymandias (Jul 23, 2012)

Flying minis said:


> - which include high insurance costs for doctors and a legal system that allows multimillion dollar court settlements for mistakes or errors. Tort reform MUST be included with health care reform - but since Congress is run by lawyers, that's unlikely to ever happen


Keeps them on their toes though doesn't it? In the U.K. Where healthcare is government run there is a maximum amount you can sue for...$10,000! Not much incentive to keep a patient alive if the max you'll be fined is $10,000!!!


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## Flying minis (Jul 23, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Keeps them on their toes though doesn't it? In the U.K. Where healthcare is government run there is a maximum amount you can sue for...$10,000! Not much incentive to keep a patient alive if the max you'll be fined is $10,000!!!



Unfortunately, no, it just makes them order batteries of tests that are unnecessary, trying to ensure they've covered themselves incase they are sued. . . . I've read multiple studies regarding the number of unnecessary tests and extra work that is done to ensure doctors can defend themselves in litigation - not to mention the exorbitant malpractice insurance rates. . . all of which is passed on to the consumer.


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## Jill (Jul 24, 2012)

Flying Minis, your posts make some great points and backed up with a lot of thought and real life understanding.

I agree that Tort Reform is part of the answer. I know that for every medicine that makes it to market, there are many others that required heavy funding and time but for one reason or another did not make it to market. I know that allowing insurance companies to compete across state lines would bring down premium costs.

The answers are out there but some people cannot release their "witch hunt" or the "government should take care of me" mentality.

I for one really appreciate you chiming in and making such astute points. I really enjoyed your posts.


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## Jill (Jul 24, 2012)

Another thing regarding large malpractice claims and tort reform -- I suspect what doctors fear more than a large settlement being paid (for which they insure themselves) is that they fear they will lose their insurance. When the insurance companies are on the hook for such large dollar figures, they're not likely to take second chances. If a doctor loses his coverage, the hospitals will not allow him to work there or use their facilities. He's effectively out of business. I know if I could not secure E & O (Errors & Omissions) insurance, I would not be able to practice. I'm sure it's the same for doctors.


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## MountainWoman (Jul 24, 2012)

I understand about the practice of medicine and the hoops doctors are required to jump through now as far as having a terrible burden of paperwork, etc. and justifying everything they do. I don't think those of you who aren't in the medical field can begin to understand the stress the practice of medicine has become. The majority of doctors just want to deliver outstanding patient care and they are so rolled in red tape, it's hard to do that.

I believe in some tort reform when it comes to frivolous claims but I don't believe in capping judgments when there is true malpractice and egregious errors.

But I was thinking about the name of this thread "We are all doomed" and especially in light of the horrific massacre in Colorado. Perhaps we should start a thread seeking common ground and celebrating what is positive about life in this country and how each of us in our own small way will work to effect positive change according to our beliefs whether we are Republican, Democrat or Libertarian.

I don't think I'm doomed. Obamacare might come to pass, Romney might get elected but the sun will rise every morning, my horses will nicker to me and I'll go about my day trying to enjoy the moments I'm alive.


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## ozymandias (Jul 24, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> I believe in some tort reform when it comes to frivolous claims but I don't believe in capping judgments when there is true malpractice and egregious errors.


+1. There has to be some reform but not to the point it gets to with Government run HC!


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