# Western Country Pleasure AMHR-Classic Pleasure AMHA



## LaVern (Oct 4, 2011)

Do the Judges look for the same thing?


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 4, 2011)

It was my understanding that they are basiclly the same class, except in AMHA its not a western class, I think in both registeries they picked horses with too much action. I don't know maybe its suppose to be that way in AMHA.


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## targetsmom (Oct 4, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> It was my understanding that they are basiclly the same class, except in AMHA its not a western class, I think in both registeries they picked horses with too much action. I don't know maybe its suppose to be that way in AMHA.


I feel the same way. Not only do the judges seem to pick winners with more action than is supposed to be "ideal" but also with higher head carriage. While watching the World Show last week, I thought it would be great if they ran all the Classic Pleasure Classes first and then kicked out the ones with too much action/too high a head carriage and put them in Country Pleasure. And same with Country Pleasure - run those classes next and weed out the ones that really belong in Single Pleasure. JMO.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 4, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> I feel the same way. Not only do the judges seem to pick winners with more action than is supposed to be "ideal" but also with higher head carriage.


As long as these classes are based on "action," there's going to be problems. Where on earth are horses like my Kody supposed to go, ones that have nice round movement but can in no way, shape or form hold a Country Pleasure headset? Are we "too good" (ha!) for WCP even if I drop his head appropriately and drive him in a WCP manner? I hardly think that's fair either! The point was to give horses who were nice but not built to be so upheaded or fancy a place to still be competitive. In my personal opinion AMHR got off track when they started trying to legislate the outline in order to get across the point that horses who were checked up or fancy weren't supposed to win this division. Now it's like "only horses with completely flat necks, trailing hindquarters, and no flex at all to their knees should win." What?!




Ick!

A horse who's borderline Single/Country Pleasure can be driven in a more relaxed, forward manner to fit in Country or jazzed up to go in Single. A horse who has the headset for Country but medium action could be driven either long-and-low for WCP or with more lift for Country. But the ones with good action but low necksets have nowhere to go but WCP. I don't feel it's wrong to put a good mover there if their headset and training clearly fit the division. Just my opinion.

I'll post more later on the original question, I need to be able to cut and paste some pictures from the rulebook.

Leia


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 4, 2011)

So basiclly your saying that the WCP class is for your low end country horses. I have a horse that fits in this description, when it first came out he placed in every class he went into at Nationals, even National Champion. Now we are lucky enough for even a judge to look at us. There are still a few out there that still like him but he isn't a country horse, he doesn't have the knee action, yes he is flat, yes his head set is low, but this class is called western CPD, thats what they named it and thats what everyone has turned it into is a western class. This class is very detailed in the rule book and its still not being followed by some of our judges.

Now when it came to AMHA I figured its basiclly the same class but heck I didn't know I saw horses with pretty high head sets, and horses that really should be in country winning. I haven't showed in this class, I only saw it done at this years World show so I didn't feel I should really comment.

I am trying my hardest to get this horse's HOF, we can get the points but I got to get 3 more stake wins, that might be hard to do, I don't think its impossible. Once he gets it I got my next western horse already in mind. He is your low end country and once I get that head set I think he will be very hard to beat if they continue to pick these type of horses.


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## wildoak (Oct 5, 2011)

Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR - very flat kneed and sweepy stride (and collected, not trailing out behind



), level head set, face perpendicular to the ground. VERY few minis have that kind of look & movement, and judging still seems to be all over the place. I watched a couple of WCP classes come in at a crawl, horses were pokey and not moving out. Some of the others were moving at a good clip and were very attractive.



> As long as these classes are based on "action," there's going to be problems


Movement has to be a part of it, but if we are penalizing horses with less "action" then we are missing the point of this class. As for any performance horse, movement needs to be clean and correct for the type - in this case, less knee and elevation but still free moving and in a frame. A western or classic horse needs to be quiet and consistent, not collected to the point they are behind the bridle, not just a slowed down version of a CP horse. Disclaimer - not looking at the rule book, just my interpretation lol.

Jan


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## targetsmom (Oct 5, 2011)

I think my concept of what the WCP or Classic CP class should be is also based on big horse experience. In the breed shows they want to see a level topline and flat-kneed movement in Hunter Under Saddle (HUS) classes. To me, the drawings I have seen of Classic Pleasure look the same (when they are labeled correctly!) I had trouble under most judges in the HUS class because Target carried his head higher, which helped him win in dressage and Show Hack (suitability for dressage) but not here. Very rarely a judge would like him in HUS, but then I thought it was because of his hand gallop and/or extended trot, so who knows?

Target:






Now, I once had 4 judges tell me that they thought Princess (below) was their ideal of an AMHA Classic Pleasure horse. They wanted to see her move out more than she was in that class at a Pinto show. She had not been warmed up and was so forward I was hesitant to let her move out! But here she is in more normal form - flat kneed and moving out, with ears just above withers. I think if Target had carried his head like this we would have done much better in HUS! We have not shown in WCP or Classic Pleasure against competition, so I don't know how she would place. We hope to find out next year. Also, she can actually lengthen her stride when asked for working trot, which I don't often see in the ring, but maybe that is because I usually watch online.


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## RhineStone (Oct 5, 2011)

wildoak said:


> Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR - very flat kneed and sweepy stride (and collected, not trailing out behind
> 
> 
> 
> ), level head set, face perpendicular to the ground. VERY few minis have that kind of look & movement, and judging still seems to be all over the place.


So where do the "Carriage Morgan" type minis show? You've got "Hot Saddlebred" (Single Pleasure) classes, "Hot Arabian" (Country Pleasure) classes, and QH (WCP) classes. It seems that the breed shows are basically eliminating a whole lot of your good minis from even having a chance because they are focused too much on a "type" ideal vs. a good driving horse.



targetsmom said:


> I think my concept of what the WCP or Classic CP class should be is also based on big horse experience. In the breed shows they want to see a level topline and flat-kneed movement in Hunter Under Saddle (HUS) classes. To me, the drawings I have seen of Classic Pleasure look the same (when they are labeled correctly!) I had trouble under most judges in the HUS class because Target carried his head higher, which helped him win in dressage and Show Hack (suitability for dressage) but not here. Very rarely a judge would like him in HUS, but then I thought it was because of his hand gallop and/or extended trot, so who knows?
> 
> Target:


Unfortunately, there's too much arch to Target's neck to be placed well in HUS nowadays. We had the same problem with our Spider. They usually liked him in dressage, but said his neck was too high for HUS. (That's one reason he made an AWESOME carriage driving horse!) The problem started when people took their WP QHs and cross entered them in Hunt. Those peanut rolling QHs couldn't lumber over a jump if they had to and yet the class is HUNTER under saddle!



But since that is what was in the arena, that is what was placed, and it started a "revolution". People have been harping on this for years, so I doubt it will change. We watched a Regional Arab show HUS class this year and EVERY horse was behind the vertical! We asked the judge about it (from an educational standpoint, "Help us understand your sport...") and he said that Arab Hunter classes are basically for those horses that aren't good enough for WP or Saddleseat (your "throwaway" horses...



). He couldn't give me a good reason for the behind the vertical other than that he has to judge what is in front of him. Some big name trainer must have won a class with a horse like that, so EVERYBODY thinks that is the way it should be. He said what they usually pick in a HUS class is the best quality horse - best movement, best conformation, etc. Headset is not as important.

I can see that in mini breed shows, the judges might be picking the best movement, best conformed horses vs. ones that "meet" the criteria in each class. Then everyone seems to think that their horse should look like "so and so Big Name Trainer's" winning horse not realizing that their horse doesn't have the quality that Big Name Trainer's horse did because Big Name Owner has deep pocketbooks.





Until Big Name Trainer comes in with a fluid, super moving horse that actually tracks up, is round, and enjoys his job, I doubt anything is going to change, and I predict it will get MUCH worse as people search for that "ideal" frame vs. the whole package. Especially if the "artificial" big horse ring is the "ideal".

JMHO - Myrna


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 5, 2011)

wildoak said:


> Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR - very flat kneed and sweepy stride (and collected, not trailing out behind
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Jan I totally agree with your post. Its not judged just on a head set, its not just judged on movement. Its the total package. Its not just oh my horse can't do country so lets just put him in the WCP. I honestly feel like these judges pick the horses with the best movement and not look at what they are suppose to be picking. Here is quotes from the AMHR rulebook on what they are suppose to be looking for in Western Country Pleasure Driving:

*A western country pleasure driving horse should carry himself in a natural, balanced position with a relaxed head and neck. The crest of the neck shall be flat, not bowed or arched. The poll should be level with or slightly above the level of the withers.*

* *

*Maximum credit should be give to a horse with a relaxed head and neck, with the crest of the neck flat, not bowed or arched, that carries his poll level with or slightly above the withers, moves straight with low strides and with little flexion of knees and hocks, with free movement, manners and a bright expression.*

* *

*The horse shall be sverely penalized if his poll is more than 3 inches above the level of the withers, the crest of the neck is bowed or arched, is behind the vertical, is overflexed, excessively nosed out, the poll is below the level of the withers, exhibits excessive knee action and speed, or shows lack of control by the exhibitor.*

Here is my western horse.






Here is my roadster horse that I put into western at Nationals. He has never been tought to keep his head that low so he didn't have the best drive but a judge did use him. He is the type they are picking and like I said if they continue to pick those type of horses and with training he is going to be hard to beat IMO.


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## wildoak (Oct 5, 2011)

> So where do the "Carriage Morgan" type minis show?


That's something I'm not really familiar with, would have assumed they would be today's version of a country pleasure type horse.

I am with you on a lot of the HUS horses out there now, they are basically bigger WP horses that still travel on a loose rein and drag their toes. Done right though, it's a pretty class to watch. I like the flat kneed sweepy movement, as long as they are moving with some impulsion and not just dogging along. Target, you are right...your horse is very nice but doesn't fit the QH/APHA type of HUS horse. Your driving horse looks very "western" or classic to me.

Jan


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 5, 2011)

Any Judge who wants a Hunter's head lower than Targets pretty horse s's head obviously has never actually hunted a horse!

You do want the head where you can see it, especially just before take off.

If you Google "Show Hunter" (I can't get You Tube to copy) and look at the video of Robert Oliver on his Show Hunter of the Year, that is an ideal headset for a Hunter.

If you want a horse to trip over it's own feet on the hunting field, well, OK, get them to hold their heads down.......

Me, I would rather actually stay up on the horse and have the horse on it's feet





As to "headsets" well, since it is only the checkrein that is causing the headset in the majority of these cases, what's the point?


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## susanne (Oct 5, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> As to "headsets" well, since it is only the checkrein that is causing the headset in the majority of these cases, what's the point?


^THIS!^

Why can't there be one class that is actually about driving? I understand the desire for "halter in motion" classes, but instead of emulating assorted breeds, why not have a carriage driving class? Why not make something of the partnership with ADS?


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## RhineStone (Oct 5, 2011)

susanne said:


> Why can't there be one class that is actually about driving? I understand the desire for "halter in motion" classes, but instead of emulating assorted breeds, why not have a carriage driving class? Why not make something of the partnership with ADS?






:yeah



Right you are, Susanne!

We actually might show up at a breed show then! Right now, it isn't worth it to finagle a check rein, snaffle bit, and all the other assorted "unwritten" rules just to get told we "don't know what we are doing".



Thank goodness we have the ADS arena for our horses that are round, bending, and tracking up!



Right now, there is no place to show that type of horse at a mini show. That is what I meant when I said, "Where (in what class) do the 'Carriage Morgan' minis show?"

JMS, this isn't a critical comment, but moreso an observation. Your minis seem to have more arch than those PD QHs do, so I would not consider them to be the "ideal" WCP horse (not sure I have EVER seen a mini look like the "ideal" QH, though). They don't want any arch at all in the QHs (heaven forbid if we look ANYTHING like one of those "psycho" English horses....which is also why we don't want any knee action...



), and I fear that is the way the minis want to go



. I like the little bit of arch to the minis' necks. It is natural and not forced. They are horses that can actually _use_ themselves decently (ironically like a "performance" i.e. reining, cutting QH.) You could easily cross over to the carriage ring and do well if your horse moves out (I can't tell from a photo). (Actually, _almost_ any mini could cross over to the carriage ring, _less_ check rein.



) If I were you all, I would be fighting tooth and nail not to have your WCP horses end up like peanut-rolling PD QHs that can hardly move. (Also ironically, those PD QHs are the one breed type that DOESN'T as a rule do well in the carriage arena). (And BTW, I don't have a problem with peanut-rolling QH in WP classes....just not a fan of them in driving or hunter classes. Go roll peanuts in your classes that were originally designed for that.)

Myrna


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 5, 2011)

targetsmom said:


>


IMHO this is EXACTLY what the rules state, but what wasn't pinning at Nationals in the open classes. Our WCP stallion travels like this and can move out when asked. He was 3rd in Ammy out of 45! My gelding travels like this- he didn't do diddly at Nationals in the open classes but did pin 7th out of 24 in Ammy. The horses that were pinning in the open classes were arched in the crest and had way too much action. You know....Country horses.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 5, 2011)

Myrna,

Thanks for your comment but IMO the first photo of my horse I like the way his neck is set. To me its pretty darn flat, maybe a little archy but honestly he does have a long neck and I rather have a collected look then just have his head and neck just out there with no looks of collection. Now the 2nd pic I agree with you that horse's neck is bowed, and even behind the verticle. But if you had read what I wrote he was never trained to put his head down that low and with more training it will correct. I was just showing what they were placing as he is a roadster horse, not a western horse but thats what they pick. IMO your going to get a tiny bit of arch to get the collected look, but you have to make sure they aren't below the withers or behind the verticle.

I have seen pics of AQHA Pleasure drivers as this is what this class was based on. How they move thats how our horses are suppose to move. There head sets are what we are suppose to be striving for but just not below the withers.

Now I'll admit it that I have been working on the first horse's head set all year, I can show you an example of a bowed behind the verticle pic that you don't want your horse to do but he did place Reserve under both judges so who knows anymore. I started working with him in May, this is him in June, IMO I think he is alot better but still not 100% where I like him to be. But he is pretty darn close.


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## targetsmom (Oct 5, 2011)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> IMHO this is EXACTLY what the rules state, but what wasn't pinning at Nationals in the open classes. Our WCP stallion travels like this and can move out when asked. He was 3rd in Ammy out of 45! My gelding travels like this- he didn't do diddly at Nationals in the open classes but did pin 7th out of 24 in Ammy. The horses that were pinning in the open classes were arched in the crest and had way too much action. You know....Country horses.


Thanks Field-of Dreams...And glad to hear your stallion that moves like this did so well! Congrats! Sounds like there were different judges in Ammy & Open, right? I am not going to change Princess's way of going or head set to conform to what the judges MIGHT be placing - I like her this way and it is natural for her. She goes the same way in ADS events without a check. In my mind, if my big horse Target looked more like this, he might have done better in Hunter Under Saddle. Do you see how similar their strides are?


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 6, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> Thanks Field-of Dreams...And glad to hear your stallion that moves like this did so well! Congrats! Sounds like there were different judges in Ammy & Open, right? I am not going to change Princess's way of going or head set to conform to what the judges MIGHT be placing - I like her this way and it is natural for her. She goes the same way in ADS events without a check. In my mind, if my big horse Target looked more like this, he might have done better in Hunter Under Saddle. Do you see how similar their strides are?


Yes, there are two sets of judges for this show (four, actually- Ammy/Youth, Futurity, OPen Halter and Open Performance) The Ammy judges I had no problem with at all, the open....meh.

Don't change a thing on her- she's spectacular!


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## RhineStone (Oct 6, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> IMO the first photo of my horse I like the way his neck is set. To me its pretty darn flat, maybe a little archy but honestly he does have a long neck and I rather have a collected look then just have his head and neck just out there with no looks of collection.
> 
> I have seen pics of AQHA Pleasure drivers as this is what this class was based on. How they move thats how our horses are suppose to move. There head sets are what we are suppose to be striving for but just not below the withers.


I think you misunderstood me. I _like_ your horse. What I don't like is the QH PD and hope that the minis are not trying to emulate that, but I fear with the way the rules are written and people's impressions, that is what will happen. Here is an example

 Those walks are so slow they make me think the horses are sick! They don't look like they are enjoying their job at all. The "extended trots" are better, but the slow trots are horrible to watch. If minis go this route, any decently moving mini won't stand a chance of getting looked at.
Are the minis eventually going to have to add "Sport Horse" classes to their lineup like the Arabs had to so that the "real" (not artificially trained or set up) horses have a place to show? If they only want "show" Saddlebred, Arabs, and QH type minis, they will. If you look at the difference between a Sport Horse Arab Hunter and a Show Horse Arab Hunter, you can see what I mean.

Myrna


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## Flying minis (Oct 6, 2011)

So here's my CWP under horse - she's done very well this year. This photo she's a little behind vertical - because she's wanting to break. Usually she's at vertical with a flatter neck, but I don't have any great pictures.

Had to attach the pic, because I can't figure out how to put it on the post.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 6, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Here is an example


This is a bit off topic but I just have to comment on that video.

Oh my, those might just be the bravest horses I've ever seen. How much impulsion would any (sane) horse have when the driver first puts a blindered bridle on them and then has _zero_ contact. The poor things _have_ to move slow and careful, with their nose nearly touching the ground because they can't see more than a tiny bit and the drivers aren't giving them any support or direction. I'm surprised they agree to trot at all never mind extend. I so want to make those drivers wear a blind fold and run around in an arena. They'd get the point as soon as they wondered where the walls were. I'd hate to be a judge for that class too, there was a point when one horse passed the sorrel and they were superimposed over each other. They could have been the same horse, exactly the same outline. How do you choose the best from clones? Then there was the whip in its holder and lets slap the reins on the horse's back to move him forward... yikes...


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 6, 2011)

Sorry Myrna, thanks for liking him. I honestly don't think it will go that way to AQHA Pleasure driving. Thats why in the rule they don't want anybody below the withers. Besides with what they are picking no body is going to win driving that way.

My goal for next year with my horse is to continue to drive him like I've always had and maybe some of these judges will be better educated at what this class is suppose to be like. Also going to try and drive him without the use of the martingale I think he will drive alot better without one, he will drive even better if he didn't need to use a check.


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## RhineStone (Oct 6, 2011)

(I should have used the Quote option for this post...




MR)

_"This is a bit off topic but I just have to comment on that video._

_Oh my, those might just be the bravest horses I've ever seen. How much impulsion would any (sane) horse have when the driver first puts a blindered bridle on them and then has zero contact. The poor things have to move slow and careful, with their nose nearly touching the ground because they can't see more than a tiny bit and the drivers aren't giving them any support or direction. I'm surprised they agree to trot at all never mind extend. I so want to make those drivers wear a blind fold and run around in an arena. They'd get the point as soon as they wondered where the walls were. I'd hate to be a judge for that class too, there was a point when one horse passed the sorrel and they were superimposed over each other. They could have been the same horse, exactly the same outline. How do you choose the best from clones? Then there was the whip in its holder and lets slap the reins on the horse's back to move him forward... yikes... _



_ "_

Yup....exactly WHY I don't want to see the minis go this way.....



....all for the sake of trying to be little QHs.

And did you read the comments at the bottom? Someone asked if voice commands are allowed and the poster said "very minimally" or something like that. So not only do they not use the reins, whip, or body (like a riding horse) for communiciation, but they aren't supposed to use their voice much either! If they HAD contact on the reins, they might actually get a nice _little_ arch like JMS' horse has ("We don't want that, now do we!"). Ironically, those horses are _bred_ to be that lazy. You wouldn't take a "performance" bred horse in driving. Anything with a bit of "umph" couldn't survive in that arena under that criteria (no rein contact and little voice). If a mini was required to go that slow, it would have a hard time keeping the vehicle going with the lack of forward momentum.

See why I really don't think that a "type" should be what you all are going for in your WCP classes? Dig your heels in hard that you don't go that way!

Myrna


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## Minimor (Oct 6, 2011)

> Ever see a QH pleasure driving class? That's what I understood the ideal was to be, at least for AMHR


I'm not sure why you would choose 'QH' for the style of horses in WCP? Why not a Morgan western pleasure horse? Morgans, of course, don't have western driving classes, but that's not to say that you can't have a driving horse going in a similar style to the under saddle horses.
The rule calls for 'little knee and hock flexion' but for my part a horse with little knee and hock flexion is just poor moving--I do not feel WCP is meant for horses that just swing their legs forward without any knee flexion. I do have a gelding that moves that way (and he isn't as bad as some out there) and in my view he simply isn't a show horse. I wouldn't take him out & show him in WCP. I do have two mares that I feel would be suitable for WCP--they are pretty movers with decent flexion (which does not mean they trot anywhere near level! Far from it.) and a natural carriage that I feel is perfect for WCP. I have a number of horses that I would put in Country Pleasure and a few that I would put in Pleasure Driving.

From what I saw of Nationals--I would say that the one park horse would be my idea of the perfect pleasure driving horse (loved him, but not what I consider a park horse) There were a few pleasure horses that I would have put in Country. When it came to Country there were some entries I would have put in WCP and some I would have perhaps put into Pleasure. As for the WCP--I did see some lovely horses in there, horses that I felt were ideal for WCP. Some of the entries, well, it was hard to tell because of the way they were presented--necks curled downward too much and faces behind the vertical. I call that pathetic.

So few of the Nationals horses (all divisions of driving) looked happy in their work. So many of them looked dull & rather dejected, many looked worried and unhappy in their work, some looked like they were being pulled in too much/held onto too tightly. Whatever division the horse is being shown in I believe he should look like he is enjoying his work, or at least that he isn't unhappy in his work. He should be alert and bright eyed and look like he is a pleasure to drive. I saw too many that just looked painful to drive.


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## Sandee (Oct 6, 2011)

Minimor said:


> ..........................................
> 
> From what I saw of Nationals--I would say that the one park horse would be my idea of the perfect pleasure driving horse (loved him, but not what I consider a park horse) There were a few pleasure horses that I would have put in Country. When it came to Country there were some entries I would have put in WCP and some I would have perhaps put into Pleasure. As for the WCP--I did see some lovely horses in there, horses that I felt were ideal for WCP. Some of the entries, well, it was hard to tell because of the way they were presented--necks curled downward too much and faces behind the vertical. I call that pathetic.
> 
> ..............................


Would you mind telling which horse in park harness or at least if it was in the under or over division? Just curious. I didn't watch the unders but from the still pictures I was wondering why the little pinto Larry was driving in under didn't win? Maybe something happened in the class. Like I said just curious.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 6, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> (I should have used the Quote option for this post...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 6, 2011)

Minimor said:


> I'm not sure why you would choose 'QH' for the style of horses in WCP? Why not a Morgan western pleasure horse? Morgans, of course, don't have western driving classes, but that's not to say that you can't have a driving horse going in a similar style to the under saddle horses.
> 
> The rule calls for 'little knee and hock flexion' but for my part a horse with little knee and hock flexion is just poor moving--I do not feel WCP is meant for horses that just swing their legs forward without any knee flexion. I do have a gelding that moves that way (and he isn't as bad as some out there) and in my view he simply isn't a show horse. I wouldn't take him out & show him in WCP. I do have two mares that I feel would be suitable for WCP--they are pretty movers with decent flexion (which does not mean they trot anywhere near level! Far from it.) and a natural carriage that I feel is perfect for WCP. I have a number of horses that I would put in Country Pleasure and a few that I would put in Pleasure Driving.
> 
> ...


I can't really comment on the Park Harness horses at Nationals because this class seems pointless to me so didn't watch. Hardly any minis move like a Park horse and when you get into the Overs some of the shetlands yes can look like they have a Park trot compared to the miniatures. Honestly almost all of your park harness minis belong in pleasure or even country.

The pleasure class you had some good drivers, but quite a few belong in country. Even saw a WCP horse in a pleasure class.

The country class I don't remeber seeing any or very little belong in WCP. Yes saw Pleasure horses in the country class that didn't belong there has it been that way for years now, but its getting less and less. Honestly the country class is starting to get into good shape.

The WCP class quite a bit of your low end country horses were placing. They were the ones that there polls were above 3", really arched, some behind the verticle, and had knee action. Its not suppose to be that way. heck I will no way say and scream my horse should have placed, he should have won, no way am I saying that, but some that beat him should not have. The really good WCP horses are really nice and I can see this class being a really nice class with tough competition, but we can't have country horses keep winning. This class is suppose to go by the AQHA Pleasure driving guidelines, no way are we near it, but the judges are clearly not reading what they are suppose to be judging for either.


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## LaVern (Oct 7, 2011)

But, I am still wondering if WPC and Classic Pleasure are the same. I don't have a clue about this driving stuff. I always pick the horse and driver that look the prettiest and the happiest and the safest and the nicest. And then if I know the person I clap for them too. Do you think that you should have one of those western harnesses -the tooled ones- for WPC?


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 7, 2011)

I don't think its necessary to have a "western" harness. Altho I think it can make some judges take notice. I like how I did my harness for my horse. He is in a $400 russet harness that I just put conchos on and I have had quite a few compliments on it even by judges. They always ask if it was a Lutke but there is no way I could afford something like that for just one class. Very pretty harness tho.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 7, 2011)

LaVern said:


> Do you think that you should have one of those western harnesses -the tooled ones- for WPC?






Good heavens, I have never seen a tooled leather harness. Don't let my husband know such a thing exists, he'd be wanting one for sure.


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## targetsmom (Oct 7, 2011)

LaVern- To answer your question - or try to: I think the intention of both the AMHR WCP and the AMHA Classic Pleasure classes is the same: to provide a place for horses with a lower headset and more flat-kneed, sweeping movement to show. I remember when the classes were developed and AMHR named theirs first. I think the AMHA people had the same thing in mind but struggled with a name; they really didn't want to use "western" so came up with "Classic". It might help to watch the AMHA driving DVD where their driving classes are all explained with plenty of examples.

You have seen the photo of my black and white mare that I consider to be what the judges are looking for in each class. For AMHR shows, I will wear a more western outfit (but still wear my helmet!). For AMHA shows I might use my wooden wheeled cart and apron like I do in Pinto shows and ADS events or I might use my Graber show cart and the same "western outfit" with the helmet as I would for WCP. I will likely use my carriage driving harness and certainly NOT one that screams "western"! I imagine most drivers will use their usual show harness.

I would also love to see the judges reward manners, attitude, and safety, plus a few other things like straightness and lateral bend, smooth transitions, a relaxed but "marchy" walk, and a distinct lengthening of stride when called for.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 7, 2011)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> Good heavens, I have never seen a tooled leather harness. Don't let my husband know such a thing exists, he'd be wanting one for sure.


The Lutke ones are gorgeous. There was another one there by a different manufacturer that was rather clunky. Jane bought one of his first ones for Lotto and he looks spectacular in it. Not really leather, more of a biothane but sure looks like leather! She does use it for both WCPD and ClassicPD. She gets a TON of compliments on it.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 7, 2011)

Well I'll have to go looking for a picture of them. It might make an amazing gift for him for Christmas or his birthday. Not this year since he just got a new pairs harness but sure something special that he'd be thrilled with. Any idea where I can see them?


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## LaVern (Oct 7, 2011)

The reason I brought this up is that I am a bit confused, and want to brag a little bit. I raised a little fat colt, that I named Two Buck Chuck. I named him after that wine in that a guy in california made, his name is Charles Shaw and he said that a good wine shouldn't cost more that two bucks, hence the name Two Buck Chuck Wine. I didn't notice anything special about him except that he was lovable and curious about stuff.

I sold him to some very nice people and they took him to a very good trainer that said, "There is your Classic Horse." How did he know that?

Well, they drove him at both Nationals and at the Worlds. He did very well at Nationals and was always in top ribbons, but at the World he won Champion in all five open Classic driving- huge classes, and World Grand Champion. The people that own him went back to check the judges cards on four of the classes (they didn't check the one) and he was 10(top) by all five. It was unanimous so they must know what they are looking for. Here is a picture from the World. Maybe if he had one of those tooled harnesses he would have won at Nationals too. They are more western looking.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 7, 2011)

Lavern he is a pretty boy. He looks like a good mover but not the type of headset I would call western. Too arched and collected like you would for country. Needs to be more flat, be more of a natural head set. BUT, this is an example of what the judges are picking. I don't want to take anything away from your wins, congratulations, but just not your ideal western horse according to the rule book. I can't compare to classic and western, like many have said supposely I thought it was judged the same way. I saw them picking more action and higher head sets in AMHA.


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## LaVern (Oct 7, 2011)

JMS you maybe be right, I don't have a clue. People are always asking me, "Have you got any good driving prospects"? "Yeah sure, like I know" They can all pick them up in a snow bank. I think it has more to do with whether they are willing and handled gently,and trained correctly and like to do it. And of course, if they are conformationally built to do it whatever.

I do know that there were Country horses that were put into Classic that Chuck beat out.


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## targetsmom (Oct 7, 2011)

Hi LaVern- I saw several of those AMHA classes and I got a chuckle out of his name! But I agree with JMS, that to me, he belonged in Country Pleasure, where I think he would have done just fine too! Please don't take offense, because I loved the horse, I just think he had too high a head set for the Classic classes.

That was partly why I suggested back on page 1, that they run the classes starting with Classic (or WCP in R) and send the ones that have too high a headset or too high action into the proper class. Of course, this would mean that the judges would have to understand which class they belong in, and not just pick the one that they like best. I know it will never happen....


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## susanne (Oct 7, 2011)

LaVern said:


> ...the happiest and the safest and the nicest....


LaVern, you've listed the most important things in any driving class (to me, anyway), and what far too many ignore. I realize this still does not answer your question, but then, I'm not the one to answer it...


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 7, 2011)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> Well I'll have to go looking for a picture of them. It might make an amazing gift for him for Christmas or his birthday. Not this year since he just got a new pairs harness but sure something special that he'd be thrilled with. Any idea where I can see them?


D&S Lutke Western Harness






I think this haress is so cool but just can't afford for one class. Maybe once I marry my future rich husband



. I'll be easy, don't buy me jewelry just buy me horse stuff.

My last opinion when it comes to this class. Either the judges get together and take a real serious look to the rules, and go by them, or either competely redo the class to make it like a classic country pleasure class for horses that just can't compete in country anymore. This is what this class was intended for but its gotten big, and I don't think people realized how big of a deal this class is. IMO its not hard to judge what is a WCP horse and whats a country. So instead of us competitors guessing what the judges will pick today we need a standard for this class that the judges will go by.


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## ClickMini (Oct 7, 2011)

I don't think they are judged the same. I think the WCP class shows the horses moving in a slower gait, with a flatter neck. The horses in the Classic Country are slightly more bridled up and moving along at a faster gait. I think 2 buck chuck was marvelous, by the way, LaVern.

Not a show pic, but a CDE one... but I think this mare would be a great Classic horse.






She did not do well in WCP. Her neck is not level. For Classic, Patty told me their eye should be approx. level with the terrets.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 7, 2011)

CL-034 CLASSIC PLEASURE DRIVING DIVISION

Balance shall be 50% to rear

The ideal CLASSIC PLEASURE DRIVING horse shall be

shown with light contact on the reins at all times. Ideally

neck carriage should remain low and head set by horse

being on the bit and face perpendicular to the ground.

Stride should be sweeping and ground covering.

CLARIFICATION: Head carriage should be in the bridle,

with poll not lower than the withers and eye of the horse

not higher than the withers. Stride flowing with a flat knee,

minimal knee and hock action.

A. Classic Pleasure Driving is a single horse driving class,

hitched to show cart with either wooden or metal spoke

wheels. A Basket is mandatory, a boot is optional. To be

judged on the following criteria, in the listed order:

ATTITUDE PARAMOUNT Settled in the bridle,

smooth gait transitions.

MANNERS PARAMOUNT No gapping at the bit.

Horse should appear

willing to work.

UNACCEPTABLE HALF CHEEKS

ACCEPTABLE HALF CHEEKS

101

SHOW RULES

PERFORMANCE Steady in each gait

and definite gait changes.

QUALITY A”pretty” picture with

appropriate action for

class.

CONFORMATION As correct for

CLASSIC PLEASURE

DRIVING.

The ideal CLASSIC PLEASURE DRIVING horse should

excel at all of the above items.

B. Class requirements:

Horse to be shown both directions in the arena at the

Walk, Pleasure Trot, and the Working Trot. Horse will

enter counter clockwise at the Pleasure Trot. Horse will

be required to stand quietly and back readily.

C. Gait requirements:

1. WALK: A four beat, flat-footed and ground covering gait.

2. PLEASURE TROT: A two beat diagonal gait. Overall

balance as shown above. Horse must demonstrate freedom

of movement, be relaxed and easy going, demonstrating

impulsion.

3. WORKING TROT: A lengthening of stride from the

Pleasure Trot. Horse must demonstrate freedom of

movement.

D. The use of a Martingale is optional. (See CL-030-K)

E. A horse that is shown in Classic Pleasure cannot be

shown in Country Pleasure or Single Pleasure at the

same show.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 7, 2011)

Thanks for the picture and link JMS, my husband would love it but it is a bit pricey for us right now too. I see that harness requiring a wooden cart or a small wagonette to look right. Gads, I could spend soooo much money if I only had it


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## Sandee (Oct 8, 2011)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> Thanks for the picture and link JMS, my husband would love it but it is a bit pricey for us right now too. I see that harness requiring a wooden cart or a small wagonette to look right. Gads, I could spend soooo much money if I only had it



That harness just doesn't look "right" to me for a normal "show" cart . It sort of screams unless it's on a horse that it compliments or with a cart/carriage that goes with it.

And most judges do give weight to the horse that goes willingly and backs without a fuss. Although most horses do back without a problem, I've been told in the past, by a judge, that a horse I was driving would have been placed but "blew it" in the back up.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 9, 2011)

Sandee said:


> That harness just doesn't look "right" to me for a normal "show" cart . It sort of screams unless it's on a horse that it compliments or with a cart/carriage that goes with it.
> 
> And most judges do give weight to the horse that goes willingly and backs without a fuss. Although most horses do back without a problem, I've been told in the past, by a judge, that a horse I was driving would have been placed but "blew it" in the back up.


Jane uses hers on a natural wood Jerald and it looks awesome! But I do believe it would clash on my black one....


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## brasstackminis (Oct 26, 2011)

All of this discussion about what the rules state and what the judges actually pick and all that...yeah BOOOO is all I can say!



This is why I no longer will show my horses (big, medium, or small) in a class without a score card! At least I know what the judges liked and didn't like. Then I can choose to agree or disagree, but at least I know! I hate not knowing where to go or what to work on at breed shows



...wondering if it is because someone has a thing against some color or friends with a trainer...



Yep I need that score card to put effort into showing my fur kids!


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## targetsmom (Oct 26, 2011)

I hear what you are saying Brasstackminis, and that is one reason why I like to drive dressage tests or reinsmanship patterns. But I realize that limits where I can show, so I WILL enter "regular" driving classes, keeping a couple of things in mind.

1) I will not alter my training or my horse to try to second guess the judges. I will drive the way I think is correct and enter the classes where I think we belong.

2) I will remember that judges are human - and I might not agree with them - but there is always another show.

3) I will strive to get better, taking lessons or advice from people whose opinions I DO trust.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 26, 2011)

After being at a State Fair this past weekend I appreciate the judges that were judging the other animals why they picked this animal and what they liked about it and they would go down the list with each animal and say what they like about it but what they would like to see better that the 1st place animal had but this animal didn't. I think if our judges could take the time to explain why they pick this horse over that one how much better our shows can be. I think if we can have our clubs have a training show, with a knowledgable judge and explain to the exhibitors, paticularly for the youth and ammy would be awesome. Clinics are fine and all but I want to hear from the judges from a show.


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## RhineStone (Oct 26, 2011)

That's called "Oral Reasons". The kids learning how to judge shows in Judging Contests learn how to do them all the time. It basically comes down to time in a show. However, I have been in a few shows where the judge feels the need to explain placings, complement the competition, etc. It can be very enlightening.

Myrna


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## wildoak (Nov 5, 2011)

Have been meaning to reply to this, just finally got a picture on the computer with the much discussed western harness.



This is my western over horse - I love the harness, although it kind of disappears on a sorrel. Next project is to add wood wheels to the cart.

(Hope the photo shows up - first time I've tried attaching one to a post)

Jan


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