# stallions frozen semen



## lucky lodge (Dec 21, 2011)

as i live in australia and i think you ladys have some stunning horse,s..has anyone ever shipped frozen semen

what are the results of frozen semen with mini,s any imfo on it would be great...oh any photos of stallions

that have shipped there semen and the out come would be great. to

thanks jenny...


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## Farina (Dec 21, 2011)

I understood that frozen semen is only allowed with AMHR and not AMHA. Is this right?


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## lucky lodge (Dec 21, 2011)

ok what does that mean


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## supaspot (Dec 21, 2011)

I guess that means if you use frozen semen from an AMHA stallion impregnate an AMHA mare the resulting foal cannot be registered


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## Becky (Dec 21, 2011)

AMHA does allow cooled or frozen semen registrations. However, it is VERY expensive on both ends to utilize shipped semen without very good results and your best bet would be to buy a foal by a particular stallion or import a mare bred to the stallion of your choice.


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## REO (Dec 21, 2011)

Several farms in Australia have asked me to ship Nort's semen there but it's just too costly and difficult for us to get it done. Wish I could!


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 21, 2011)

Cooled equine semen has a pretty good viability, but a very limited "shelf life I remember exactly what a hassle it was getting the timing right with an Arab mare, and that was just importing form Europe, which is a mere skip and a jump away.

Although frozen semen obviously lasts longer they viability of frozen equine semen is still not good.

And then there is the cost........

Let's just say that, even with it only being cooled, that was one expensive Arab foal and I am only too glad it was not mine!

I honestly think buying a mare in foal to the stallion of your choice and importing the mare would be the way to go.

And you would get two for the price, virtually, of one.


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## sfmini (Dec 21, 2011)

From what I understand, mini semen does not hold up well when frozen so like others have said it would be best to buy a foal by that stallion or a mare in foal. I would opt for a live offspring of the stallion, that way you can pick the sex and color and looks, height, etc. If it did ship well, you can bet the big farms would be in that business in a huge way but you don't see any of them advertising to do it. Trust me, if there was money to be made, they would be doing it.

As far as I know, there was only one live mini birth from shipped frozen semen, and that was here in the US from a US stallion to a US mare. I think there was better luck with cooled, and embryo transfer worked but is only feasible for the wealthiest of us.

We did shipped frozen semen with an arab and had a gorgeous filly born. It was funny, the semen was Judy's birthday gift from her husband and it had to be delivered to where she was working. Nobody would touch the container when it arrived even though she assured them that the liquid gold was inside and frozen! Her fellow employees were really grossed out!


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## StarRidgeAcres (Dec 21, 2011)

There is a thread on the "best of" forum that talks about the costs and pros and cons of this very subject.


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## Charlotte (Dec 21, 2011)

We've had quite a few requests for shipped semen from S Skipper or Cowboy and we have looked into it a couple of times. It's VERY pricey. When the most recent request came from out of country we decided to really do some shopping around and see how the various facilities compared from a pricing aspect.

We found the pricing about the same no matter where we checked. It would cost us $8,000 to $10,000 for one collection approved to go out of country. Now that would be a number of straws which could be sold, but the money spent by the stallion owner would go up depending on how long the semen was needing to be stored.

Probably the biggest issue for us is that the collection must be made after the stallion has been at the facility and in quarantine for a period of 40some days. Star Skipper is just too valuable to us to risk having him off farm and out of our care for that length of time.

For the kind of investment a person would have to make to get the genetics they want from shipped semen I would think buying a colt from their faovrite stallion would be by far the better way to go. I know importation can be very expensive for buyers, but I suspect it would be less then getting one straw of semen and way more of a guarantee of having a live stallion from the transaction.


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## disneyhorse (Dec 21, 2011)

There are some beautiful miniature horses in your own country I'm sure you could look into.

I would also suggest buying a foal from your favorite stallion, that way you can pick the color/size/gender and get what you want, a lot faster! Otherwise you risk going through tremendous cost and effort just to have the mare not take, abort, etc....


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 21, 2011)

Charlotte said:


> We've had quite a few requests for shipped semen from S Skipper or Cowboy and we have looked into it a couple of times. It's VERY pricey. When the most recent request came from out of country we decided to really do some shopping around and see how the various facilities compared from a pricing aspect.
> 
> We found the pricing about the same no matter where we checked. It would cost us $8,000 to $10,000 for one collection approved to go out of country. Now that would be a number of straws which could be sold, but the money spent by the stallion owner would go up depending on how long the semen was needing to be stored.
> 
> ...


WOW!!!!! We charged that much for a MONTH of 3x week freezing, for export.... you need to look elsewhere for other facilities





Per freeze charges were about $550, plus tests (could be another 100 or so). Plus initial tests, plus board (have to be in quarantine for most countries), etc.

I REALLY want to play with freezing minis, and find a method to work. As far as industry average, its about 70% fertility rate, compared to 80% cooled, 90% fresh, and 95% pasture.

Length of quarantine depends on the country you are shipping to... I don't recall it being as long as 40 days! But I could be wrong



Its been a while.


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## supaspot (Dec 21, 2011)

I looked into it a couple of years ago , I dont know about all countrys but in Ireland the "seller" has to have a european import/export license , if not the sample would be destroyed by customs


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## kristen_tg (Dec 21, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Length of quarantine depends on the country you are shipping to... I don't recall it being as long as 40 days! But I could be wrong
> 
> 
> 
> Its been a while.


Oz has some of the most stringent and difficult quarantine regimes in the world. The cost isn't getting the stallion frozen. The cost is in getting the stallion frozen in such a way that meets the requirements of whatever country you're shipping the stuff too. Oz is notoriously difficult.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 21, 2011)

When I was doing export semen, the tests were still not the big expense... per collection, the fees for tests didn't top $200, only bringing the per collection fee to around 700 (still high!). A month of collection ranged between 10 and 15k.

(Where is Oz?)


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## chandab (Dec 21, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> (Where is Oz?)


I believe it a reference to Australia in general.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 22, 2011)

Ah



Yes, Australia is very difficult to export to


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 22, 2011)

Also the UK....


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## DunPainted (Dec 24, 2011)

Charlotte said:


> We've had quite a few requests for shipped semen from S Skipper or Cowboy and we have looked into it a couple of times. It's VERY pricey. When the most recent request came from out of country we decided to really do some shopping around and see how the various facilities compared from a pricing aspect.
> 
> We found the pricing about the same no matter where we checked. It would cost us $8,000 to $10,000 for one collection approved to go out of country. Now that would be a number of straws which could be sold, but the money spent by the stallion owner would go up depending on how long the semen was needing to be stored.
> 
> ...


Hello Miss Charlotte!!

Another consideration/complication of shipped semen is the HUGE VARIABLE of the recipient having a qualified/experienced vet for insemination. Arghhh! My friend used to ship semen from her two Friesian stallions, who required training to accept the phantom mare. Fortunately, they were youngsters when she began her program.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 25, 2011)

All stallions require training to a phantom



But even adults can be trained quite easily.



Not a big deal at all!


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## Riverdance (Dec 25, 2011)

Even Mini cooled semen has a shorter shelf life than a normal sized horse. When I bred Morgans, I always had the semen shipped. the shelf life was 48 hours and it usually took 2 trys at $500 a try to get a mare pregnant. one of my mares would never take unless it was live coverage. With Minis, their semen usually only lasts 24 hours. Not enough time to get the semen to the breeder.

Frozen semen is even worse.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 25, 2011)

Counter-to-counter shipping would be more than sufficient, and only adds $50 to the price. $500/shipment is quite expensive! $350 is still pricy, but more industry-average. $250 is ideal, what most places I've worked for charged.


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## Riverdance (Dec 25, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Counter-to-counter shipping would be more than sufficient, and only adds $50 to the price. $500/shipment is quite expensive! $350 is still pricy, but more industry-average. $250 is ideal, what most places I've worked for charged.



Shipping at that time was $250, plus $50 deposit on the cooler. That was UPS from their farm to my door. But with the vet bill too, it was over $500 each time I tried. That did not include the stud fees that were $2000 or more.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 25, 2011)

HOLY CRAP!!!!!!!

We charged $35 for the container, and you KEPT it... cooled better than the Equitainers, too. Shipping was $55, overnight FedEx anywhere in the US. So it was under $100 for shipping, plus $200-250 for the collection/cooling services. Wow.... you need some competition in your area!


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## Farina (Dec 26, 2011)

I am currently working with someone on freezing his stallion in the US. We have calculated that 10 breedings for 400 $ would cover the costs. This is with quarantaine and freezing.

We have announced it here in europe (it is a really great and successfull stud) and I believe that with some more announcement all 10 breedings will sell this year.

The advantage is that you can buy now and use it later.

Perhaps some people would together buy some breedings of a stallion so the owner can put him in quarantaine and have the money for the process.


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## valshingle (Dec 26, 2011)

So the US based stallion has to go into quarantine in order to collect semen to ship it internationally??? Wow, as a stallion owner I don't think I'd be willing to put my boy into quarantine. My stallions are usually breeding my own mares as well as showing. My boys are beloved members of our families and I don't think my daughter or I would want them to be away from home that long. Even with a trainer, they are home most of the time.

You are very fortunate to have found a breeder willing to put their stallion into quarantine for you to obtain some of it's semen.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 26, 2011)

Yes, some countries require quarantine. What you do is first select which countries you wish to ship to. Then you find an export facility that is willing to freeze for those countries (since each is different, some are more complicated.... some facilities aren't able to qualify to ship to all countries). Then the facility will tell you, the stallion owner, what types of tests you will need to undergo. Some countries require an initial set of testing, then quarantine for a length of time, then retesting, before the semen can be qualified. In the mean time, collections can still be used for domestic shipping, as well as some less strict overseas countries. As you can imagine, it gets quite complicated keeping it all straight on the paperwork. Once everything is clear and done, the USDA/State Vet has to approve the shipment.

Generally, 60 days residing at the freezing facility is all you need to store up a lifetime supply of export semen. Unless your horse is REALLY popular




In which case you may be profitable to freeze 2 months out of every year!

The facilities that offer these export services are more than likely some of the top facilities in the country... so leaving your horses there in quarantine is not that big of a deal. And visitors are allowed, usually, so you can come see your horse. Its not like an import/export facility for horses, semen is much different. Besides, you don't do this during breeding/show season... usually you freeze for export in the fall/winter.

The most efficient way is to load a large wet/dry shipper full of multiple stallions, and ship it overseas to a broker. Its MUCH cheaper that way, to share shipping. Plus, you generally find it more cost effective to BUY a brand new shipper ($1500+) to guaranty it's sterile, rather than cleaning one out and expecting it back.


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## Riverdance (Dec 26, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Yes, some countries require quarantine. What you do is first select which countries you wish to ship to. Then you find an export facility that is willing to freeze for those countries (since each is different, some are more complicated.... some facilities aren't able to qualify to ship to all countries). Then the facility will tell you, the stallion owner, what types of tests you will need to undergo. Some countries require an initial set of testing, then quarantine for a length of time, then retesting, before the semen can be qualified. In the mean time, collections can still be used for domestic shipping, as well as some less strict overseas countries. As you can imagine, it gets quite complicated keeping it all straight on the paperwork. Once everything is clear and done, the USDA/State Vet has to approve the shipment.
> 
> Generally, 60 days residing at the freezing facility is all you need to store up a lifetime supply of export semen. Unless your horse is REALLY popular
> 
> ...



The bill was $250 for the collection and $50 for the "rental" of the cooler. Then another $250 for the vet for checking the mare, telling me when to order the semen and then inserting the semen when it came and giving her a shot to ovulate. Over $500 for one try. Again, it usually took at least 2 tries to get the mare pregnant. this was with cooled semen. frozen semen was more and usually did not work. With one mare, I was doing embryo transplant. That one would cost me over $10,000 for a foal.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 26, 2011)

I wouldn't say "usually doesn't work".... I've had great luck with my stallion. He's one for one so far, one cycle, one dose inseminated. Frozen semen is about 20% less fertile than fresh semen. Cooled semen is about halfway between the other two. Its about 70%, compared to 90% for fresh. Its not poor!


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## Minimor (Dec 26, 2011)

Nathan--I think she sayd "usually did not work" meaning it usually did not work for her. That's how I took it anyway. I know some people who have had great success with frozen semen, and others who simply had no luck at all with it. It does very much depend on ones vet--if your vet isn't familiar with using frozen semen then your failure rate may be much higher than it is for someone whose vet has had a lot of experience with using it. That is definitely something to be aware of before you put out the money to get your mare bred with frozen semen (or even fresh cooled for that matter). We considered it a couple of times with our Morgans but then decided against it as it was just too costly and/or uncertain. At the time our local vets had little interest and no experience with using transported semen so the likelihood of failure was high--we could have taken the mare to a facility where they were experienced with breeding AI (and which was nearer to an international airport than we are here) but that would have added a lot of money to the already high cost of breeding and it simply wasn't worth it for us.

Success/failure can very much depend on who is doing the collection & shipping too. I know of a couple Morgan people who could not get their mares in foal using transported semen. When they did some testing of the straws they received they found out why they were having no success--the straws were contaminated with fecal material...in one case there was much feces and next to no live sperm! These people were not dealing with one farm/stallion, so that meant there were multiple farms having this same sort of contamination.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 26, 2011)

Wow.... that's some very poor handling! I've never heard of fecal material contaminating it before. I'd imagine even a very small amount would have devastating effects on the sperm.


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## Minimor (Dec 26, 2011)

Totally bad, and the fact that it was more than one farm that had that same problem was just totally off-putting to me. I really can't imagine how anyone would manage to contaminate a semen collection with fecal matter, if it's extremely sloppy collection procedures, or if it's totally dirty conditions when the straws are being prepared, or perhaps some of both?


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 26, 2011)

probably both


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## Koriana (Dec 27, 2011)

I am also very interesting in importing frozen semen to Australia. There are lines which are just not available that I want to access. I realise the costs are quite high, but bringing in stallions mares etc, is ridiculous.

I also wanted to look into embryo importing but wasnt sure how they would stand up to being imported?

To import a horse to Australia we are looking at (for under 32") $12,000 , not including transport to Quarentine, taxes we pay when they land etc. TO import a horse over 32" it is $20,000, once again as above. A very costly excercise !

Kylie


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## Farina (Dec 27, 2011)

Koriana said:


> I am also very interesting in importing frozen semen to Australia. There are lines which are just not available that I want to access. I realise the costs are quite high, but bringing in stallions mares etc, is ridiculous.
> 
> I also wanted to look into embryo importing but wasnt sure how they would stand up to being imported?
> 
> ...


I am would be very interested in importing embryos too. I don't think the quarantaine for a foal and the flight are nice to them.

I have asked several veterenary clinics here in Germany and to get here a working embryo would cost app. 400 € (500$) for flushing the mare twice (for two times heat). The import for the embryo would cost a great deal less than an actual foal. I believe in the future more embryos are going to be sold than actual foals/horses.

The shipping of a frozen embryo would also be cheaper and if I see it straight a very well bred embryo would also be cheaper than a weanling for whom the breeder had to wait (and to feed the mare) 11 months long plus the time it is a suckling. I believe it is a really nice alternative to importing foals.

The procedure is done (at least here in Germany) very nice, for the mare it is like insemination. I know that earlier the whole process was a surgery but now they do it like insemination. In Germany it is done regularly and they are very experienced.

Even if one pay say 1000$ for frozen semen it is still much cheaper than importng a horse and it has many advantages:

1. You can get bloodlines and sires that are so good that they just aren't for sale. If you buy a foal you will just a "half" of his sire the mare would throw her half in too.

2. Even if you buy a foal you have to wait and to feed them at least two years until you can breed him to your mares. That alone would cost me more than 1000$.

3. Unless you have 10 or more mares you won't need much semen and if you have servced every mare twice you have his filly foals and you wouldn't need him anymore and you could go to another stallion to make the fillies even better.

4. It the stud wouldn't work for you and the foals aren't what you have expected you won't have a stud to sell. Even in Europe is the market difficult.

5. You wouldn't have to promote this stud and bring him to a trainer and show him to get a nice show record for himself.

In Germany insemination is as a flat rate 170 € (200 $) and this isn't much if you think that you would bring a mare with the foal at her side to strange barns and you have to pay for the fuel too.

I am planing to get frozen semen of my studs myself. It has many advantages andI believe it could be worth the try for stallion owner:

1. If your stud dies in an accident or illness you would have some breedings left. I for myself feel this would benefit me in this situation.

2. You can send frozen semen in the US and in the whole world so you could get more mares and get more money with breeding fees. At the moment aren't much studs offered so I believe you could sell some quickly, if you freeze a very good stud.

3. You wouldn't have to send foals into quarantaine and on the flight.

4. You would help develop great bloodlines in the whole world and to spread the quality miniature horse.

Jessica


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## sfmini (Dec 27, 2011)

Before investing money in this venture, have the stallion owner test the stallion's semen to make sure it will freeze and thaw with a respectable count, and do it several times, test for storing it for a period of time, and make sure you get a good solid contract or you could be out a good bit of money.

So Nathan, your stallion is a mini that is one for one?

Last I have heard there has only been one live birth from frozen mini semen and would be very interested to hear if there are others.

I know a lot of breeds are successful, but was told that mini semen just doesn't hold up with any kind of quality.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 27, 2011)

No, my stud who's frozen is a QH. I never cooled/froze my pony. I don't have access to the facility to play with it again, unfortunately. Would love to, now that I've heard so much more about issues with miniatures.

All reputable freezing facilities will do a test freeze first, before jumping into commercial freezing, unless your horse has a history with freezing using that farm's chosen extenders (protocols). There is no need to store the semen for any length of time before doing a test thaw. Our SOP was to thaw immediately following freezing. I have heard some farms prefer to wait 24 hours and report better results. But more than that is wasted time.

Also remember that frozen semen is sold differently than cooled or fresh semen is. In Europe, its sold as a commodity. "X straws for $xxx". Nowhere does it say anything about fertility or PMS. The industry (world-wide) standard dose of frozen semen is 800 million sperm. That's TOTAL sperm, NOT motile sperm post-thaw. Post-thaw motility has to be over 30%, but that is NOT a standard, only a recommendation. Some major freezing facilities in the US are trying to change that by implementing higher standards, with higher guaranteed post-thaw numbers. Any "substandard" stallions/freezes come with a disclaimer, or are given extra straws to compensate. Some facilities in Europe are doing similar things, offering wacky doses of 5, 7, even 15 straws per dose! It gets very confusing.

When ordering frozen straws, its important to ask for:

Number of straws per dose

Number of sperm per straw

VOLUME of straw (0.5ml straws are VERY different than 0.25ml straws, and 3ml straws, etc)

Post thaw motility (not progressive motility, just total) PER COLLECTION. (Its common to send multiple collections in a single dose, you need to know each date's motility)

Number of doses included per fee


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## kristen_tg (Dec 28, 2011)

Important also is will it get a mare pregnant. There are a couple of famous warmblood stallions who are known to be "iffy" when it comes to freezing. Argentinus was a really good example. No trouble getting mares pregnant at the station or via AI. Frozen? Notoriously iffy, no matter the batch you got. <br /><br />Even if the post-thaw looks great it doesn't mean it will get a mare pregnant. And post thaw it can look like garbage and still get a mare pregnant. There are stallions that "freeze well" and those that don't. <br /><br />Nathan is also right about how frozen is typically sold. You typically buy it by the dose and take your chances. That's why the first question on a mare owner's lips is normally "does it get mares pregnant?"


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 28, 2011)

Yes, I should have added that





EACH BATCH's fertility record, in addition to overall fertility. Don't be afraid if they don't have each batch's available, but overall is important too.


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## Charlotte (Dec 28, 2011)

This is all very interesting. All I can report is what our research has found here in our area....and in this area where Thoroughbred and QH semen is big business so collection & transport is a well known subject.

It would have been interesting to have had Cowboy evaluated for freezing before he left here. Every time we had him collected and evaluated our vet and the lab were blown away. 25 1/2" and he out performed the bigs in every way.

Koriana, I hope you can find some farms that can supply the semen you want at a cost that makes it reasonable. The costs here just are not within reason....then the issue of quarantine for the stallion.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 28, 2011)

Its not HERE that's the problem... quarantine requirements are from the IMPORTING country, NOT the exporting country. Export is easy. We can throw all the semen we want across the boarder. But the country where its landing in gets to set ALL the rules




That's why each country has different requirements for freezing, and why some horses can ship to some countries, but not others. Shipping from Europe to Australia is almost as complicated as it is from the US to Australia. The only thing that makes it easier is when a country declares another safe, or free from some certain disease (US is a CEM free country).


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## BigDogs & LittleHorses (Dec 28, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> We can throw all the semen we want across the boarder.


OMG I just spit all over the keyboard. Thanks for putting that image in my head.





Should we throw it at Canada or Mexico?


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 28, 2011)

lol Canada is easy, they take whatever we give em. The only country I've ever shipped cooled semen to... (never had anyone want to ship to Mexico!)


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## kristen_tg (Dec 28, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> (US is a CEM free country).<br />


Not anymore. Had confirmed cases in the past 18 months, although limited exposure. Special CEM protocol (though not quarantine) required for Canada now. ;\


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## Nathan Luszcz (Dec 28, 2011)

Yup, was here in KY. Just down the road.... wasn't sure if it was enough to loose our status, I've been out of export for years


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## Minimor (Dec 28, 2011)

There was a new case in an Arizona stallion this year too, in late July. Canada implemented its CEM protocol in 2009 and it has remained in effect since then.


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## Farina (Jan 2, 2012)

I have found twominiature horse farms that offer frozen semen (since 2008!). I don't know why I am not earlier been aware of that:

http://www.belairminis.com/services.html

http://www.modello-horse-farm.com/am/home.html

I believe they should be able to send to Australia too.


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