# Ever had the unpleasant need to repossess a horse?



## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 13, 2011)

Feel free to respond here or email me or PM me. Some of the things I'm wondering is do you go through the local Sheriff's department or would you go yourself and attempt to get the horses? Are there any legal things that should be done before trying to get them...such as (I'm totally guessing here) notifying the person by certified mail of my intent to pick up the horses, giving them written timeframe to pay all that is owed before I'd do it, etc.

I've never sold horses and had a problem accepting payments. I would say almost all the horses I've sold I did so on payments and everyone has been wonderful. I guess there is always a first. I've not gotten a dime on two horses since November. At first there were excuses but now I'm just ignored. Unfortunate. There's always one in every crowd I guess.






Thanks in advance for the advice.

Update 3/21:

Things haven't gone well. Friday came and went with no payment via paypal and ignored emails, PMs, etc.

Can anyone suggest who in the AMHA and AMHR offices I could contact to make them aware of this situation. I still have the papers on these horses and am planning to have them returned to me. But want the offices to know I legally own these horses and still have the papers in my hands. A specific name would be most helpful.

Thanks again! Seems like I've need more help lately. I'm being more of a taker than a giver these days to the forum. Sorry about that.


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## wpsellwood (Mar 13, 2011)

Oh what a bummer! Sorry you have to go through this. I have no idea what you have to do legally. But I wish you the best and let us know how it all goes. Good luck buddy!


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## ~Lisa~ (Mar 13, 2011)

Well I will tell you this. technically you have no rights to the horse if it is in someone elses possesion. If they refuse to give you the horse you will have to go to court. Most law enforcement will not get involved in a civil matter- contract or not and he who has possesion of the horse keeps it until a court order says otherwise.

You yourself could get arrested if the person in possesion calls the police on you

At least that is what I was told perhaps things have changed since then?


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## LAminiatures (Mar 13, 2011)

That stinks so sorry this happened to you. It really ruins it for those that have paid and acted with integrity. Sorry but that really makes me mad. I would go to the police dept. In your town. They can help get you going in the right direction. I wish I was closer I would be picking you up with the trailer in tow. Yes this did happen to me with a big horse. Keep us posted.


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## A Little Blessing (Mar 13, 2011)

~Lisa~ even if there is no bill of sale that has exchanged hands? That's wild.


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## Miniv (Mar 13, 2011)

We've repossessed twice in 20 years (which I think is pretty good odds.). However, both times the the horses needed to be repossessed for their health AND for the fact the buyer had gone against the contract.

We did contact them both by phone and in writing. We gave them three months and the final letter was resgistered.

In the end, one buyer agreed to just have them come and repossess. The second buyer was in Idaho and raised a fuss.

But we just showed up and after some "back and forth", we won and took the horse away. It was not a pleasant experience, but for the young stallion's well being we pushed the issue and the buyer did not want the authorities to come down on them.



Grrrr.


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## topnotchminis (Mar 13, 2011)

So sorry this happened to you.


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## Becky (Mar 13, 2011)

I repossessed a horse that the buyer defaulted on. Actually, I ended up giving her back the money she haid paid so far for the horse. The buyer refused to pay any more on the horse after paying half of the money. I considered going to get the horse, but with the horse 1500 miles from me, I had no idea what kind of situation I would get into. And this buyer was strange...... I had my attorney write her a letter threatening to take legal action if she didn't finish paying for the horse. Didn't matter. She ignored the letter. I didn't want to see this filly end up in a bad situation with no registration papers, so I offered to give her money back. She finally accepted, I hired a transporter to pick up the horse and warned him to get the horse quick and get out of there.

The filly is now a treasured broodmare in my herd.


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## JMS Miniatures (Mar 13, 2011)

This would defintelly be more of a court matter and instead of getting the police involved I would seek an attourney and work thru it that way.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Mar 13, 2011)

I think you unwittingly gave the buyer an unsecured loan.

You can retain a lawyer, but a nasty note is easily ignored and it will cost you.

You can take them to court, but there is no debtors prison. Even if you win they don't have to pay.

I'd show up firm but polite.

I get stuck for about $10,000/yr. Take it from me, don't dwell on it. Learn and go on.

Dr Taylor


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## joylee123 (Mar 13, 2011)

Sorry to hear this Parmela,

This is what is concidered a Civil matter. Police can't help you with this it is a court matter. If you have a contract you can file in small claims court. Do you still have the "Papers"? That helps prove ownership if they are in your name. Without a contract and the registration paperwork in your name, It dang near impossible to satisfy the situation legally. Maybe offer to give her the money back and pick up the horse???

So sorry





It's people like that that screws it up for the rest of us.

If it hadn't been for people trusting me,I'd be a few horses less



I have alway tried my dangdest to repay or pay off anyone I am indebted to asap! Just because I feel their trust in me is so precious and I would never want to let someone down who trusted me.

Hope it all works out for you





Joy


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 13, 2011)

Thank you all so very much for the advice, education and supportive words. I do still have the papers so that is a plus for me.

But here's the best news of all...

The power of Lil' Beginnings!



The buyer isn't a forum member to my knowledge, but I'll be darned if I didn't get an email with a payment plan attached, with the first installment coming this Friday! Imagine that.

More than the money - because it really wasn't that much IMO - I'm concernd about the horses and if there is a money shortage then are they getting proper feed, hay and care, etc. I sure hope so. This is the hard part of selling; the not knowing.

Thanks again! I was/am dreading the thought of having to drive there and negotiate getting them on the trailer.


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## targetsmom (Mar 13, 2011)

Glad to hear that it sounds like the issue is getting resolved! And very glad the issue wasn't Toffee!!! Wish we had video of her outing today... running and bucking in the finally-safe-to-run-in pasture!


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## Jean_B (Mar 13, 2011)

Despite the fact this SOUNDS like it is getting resolved - I thought I would pass along some things I learned when I ran into a non-payor (actually, they took the horse after giving me a rubber check....but the end result is the same).

If you have a sales contract - it immediately takes it out of the realm of "horse theft" which is a criminal matter - and puts it into civil court. The others are right. The district attorney or law enforcement have NO jurisdiction in this case.

Your only recourse is to go to civil court (small claims if the amount is small enough) and get a judgement against the offender. You can ask for relief in the form of payment in full, or a garnishment (this works only if you or the court knows where the person works....if they even HAVE a job), or in the form of repossession, or some other satisfaction. If you get an order allowing repossession, you can then ask the county sherriff's department to accompany you - and this is highly recommended.

In the case I had - I lived in Wisconsin, the offender lived in Maine. The amount of the rubber check or the actual value of the horse did not make it worth my while to drive all the way to Maine to repossess. So I got a Wisconsin judgement against the offender, and then filed a "Foreign Order for Replevin" with the county where the offender lives. This ensures that for the next ten years, if this person ever attempts to get credit, it will show up as a "bad debt". They messed with me, I'll mess with them as much as I can. (Some people down in Arkansas and Oklahoma now call me the "wicked witch of the north"....a most undeserved



title!!



)

Which is why I changed my contracts so that no horse could leave my place without payment in full...and if final payment was made at the time of pick-up...it was CASH ONLY.


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## ruffian (Mar 13, 2011)

I'mdealing with this right now. It stinks major time. First few months were great, got payment, got photos with the kids, everything hunkey dory.

Now she won't return e-mails, mail comes back. Went to small claims and got a judgement. She said she was actually at fault, would make payments, nothing. Then told me the horse DIED last year. Then I saw her being congratulated on buying yet another mini.

It's not over, but I was told I could get the police to back me up and go get the horse OR something of equal value. I haven't done it yet because of the weather, but come spring, I'm taking a road trip.



I have the papers and the contract and the court papers. I'll post when the next step is completed.

But it will be a long time before I offer a horse on payments again.


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## JMS Miniatures (Mar 13, 2011)

I think this post is very important for everyone that if you are selling a horse on payments DO NOT GIVE THE PAPERS, and better yet not the horse lol. If they want to show they can have a show lease but the owners still have the papers, and I certaintly wouldn't do any breeding rights.

Glad this may be resolved.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 13, 2011)

Lots of good information here and good reminders for me especially as I'm a softie.





Dana, sorry you're going through something like this also. I hope the horse didn't actually pass. What a nightmare for you.

I've since learned things may be more widespread than I thought, so we'll see. I need to think about what's best for the horses, so I've got some thinking to do.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Mar 13, 2011)

ruffian said:


> I'mdealing with this right now. It stinks major time. First few months were great, got payment, got photos with the kids, everything hunkey dory.
> 
> Now she won't return e-mails, mail comes back. Went to small claims and got a judgement. She said she was actually at fault, would make payments, nothing. Then told me the horse DIED last year. Then I saw her being congratulated on buying yet another mini.
> 
> ...



wow. i wonder if the horse has actually passed or if they're lying to get you off their backs? i'd be very interested in hearing the outcome of this! good luck!


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## Kelsey - Vandy's Farm (Mar 13, 2011)

Jean_B said:


> Which is why I changed my contracts so that no horse could leave my place without payment in full...and if final payment was made at the time of pick-up...it was CASH ONLY.


Yep, we do the same thing.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Mar 13, 2011)

i have to say i've never heard of someone who was making payments be allowed to take the horse off the property of the seller! usually from what i've heard you make monthly payments and you can pick the horse up when the payments are done and you've paid full price for the horse. i wish you luck with the person Parmela!


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## Field-of-Dreams (Mar 14, 2011)

On our farm the horse doesn't leave until paid in full. Cash only.


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 14, 2011)

I have recently been involved in a case of repossession. It is not a pretty sight.

A widow sold her husband's horses on payments, and all was well for a while. Payments stopped. She found out the buyer had leased the horses to someone else! Plus, the buyer had substituted an inferior horse for one of the better horses of the original herd. The leasers were supposed to continue payments on the hroses. But they stopped payment and told the widow to come and get the horses as they couldn't feed them.






There were a lot of unbusinesslike things that happened in this sale, mostly due to the widow trusting too much. The first mistake she made was sending the original registration papers with the horses before they were paid for. The buyer transferred the horses into his own name and then stopped paying. The folks who leased the horses and took over payments only got copies of the registration papers. When the widow went to get the horses, there were no original reigstration papers with the herd.

Sellers need to consider the welfare of the horse in the long term. Foals from these particular mares were not registerable because of the whole unbusinesslike transaction, as a lot of paperwork fell through the cracks in this case.


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## wildoak (Mar 14, 2011)

Always a bad situation. I've only had one I had to threaten...years ago, a colt sold to a friend. It dragged on for probably a year, until I finally had to threaten to come get him. I think what got the final CASH payment was when they decided to sell him and needed the papers lol. It was especially aggravating since it was a friend...and I learned to do my paperwork no matter who I was selling to. With very few exceptions, my horses don't leave the farm until they are paid in full.

Jan


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 14, 2011)

ugh ugh ugh... why do people continue to accept payments?


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## CKC (Mar 14, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> ugh ugh ugh... why do people continue to accept payments?



Because there are plenty of buyers out there who are trust worthy and make their payments. I'm very thankful for the sellers that have let me purchase with payments. I'm sorry that there are those that have not followed through on their agreements.


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## chandab (Mar 14, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> ugh ugh ugh... why do people continue to accept payments?


I don't know that accepting payments is as big of a problem as letting the horse go before the last payment is made. If the horse is still on the seller's property, and the buyer quits making payments, not such a big deal, as you are still in possession of said horse.


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 14, 2011)

I am always happy to accept instalments, and will even keep the horse for free while they are being made, but NO horse ever leaves my place again without payment.

Fool me once........

Friends are the worst at this, and you lose not only the horse but a friendship as well, so it is doubly not worth the risk.


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## HGFarm (Mar 14, 2011)

Havent read all the posts here, but do you have a contract and what does it say? Due to problems I had with a person years ago and was going to make a run clear to Kansas to pick up the horse (which I found out later she had already sold to someone else!) I now write in my sales contracts on payments to cover myself in case I need to do that.

I have accepted payments on plenty of horses and MOST of them have paid on time, if not EARLY.


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## txminipinto (Mar 14, 2011)

Everyone eventually gets burned by this because 1) you are too trusting or 2) you really need to move a mouth. From experience, horses and papers do not leave my property until paid in full. No exceptions. Burned once, won't be burned again!


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## minimomNC (Mar 14, 2011)

I heard of a big guy in Lizard Lick that does repossessions, what his contact info LOL.


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## MindyLee (Mar 14, 2011)

I was very lucky once when I bought my stallion on payments. The seller even trusted me to come get him 1/2 way through my payments from a different state as well BUT did'nt give me his reg papers. Totally fine with me cause my honesty is what matters more. She took small monthly payments for over a yr till I had him just about paid off. Then to my surprise, the seller sent his paperwork to me, waved the retained stud fees and what was still owed and said "enjoy him!"

To this day I still cant believe she trusted me since I was just a buyer BUT am so very greatful she did.

I always look at it this way, I would'nt want to be screwed over by anyone so I would never do the same. However, I did reciently run into a legal matter over the ownership of one of my horses a few months back that almost went to court. I cant discuss it here But it did however blow over for now and hopefully put behind me. I can say because of that situation, I have learned a huge lesson and to make sure you fill out any paperwork needed!!! And never trust no one NO MATTER what the aggreement is. Put it on paper to save your butt and lots of stress.

Good Luck Pamala and hopefully theres a bright light for you at the end of the tunnel!


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## Equuisize (Mar 14, 2011)

We sold a very fit and athletic Polish Arab reining horse and

upon repossession picked up a rack of bones, in a few months time.

Tough lesson for us and especially for the horse.

Whistled him up, put a halter on him and he ran to the trailer

to come back home.

I was horribly allergic to this particular horse but we waited

2 years before we sold him, to a friend of a friend.

To this day he is happy, healthy and training a lot of little

kids in endurance riding and 4H, in his older age.

Much better outcome.

It's hard not to want to trust when people look you in the eye

and tell you what a wonderful life a horse will live with them.

Hope this works out well for you and the gal comes thru on her

new payment plan.


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## Shari (Mar 14, 2011)

If they have not paid for the horse in full and refusing to make payments, and you have the paper trail. Like any other seller,, say of Cars or what ever, they/you have a right to repo your animals for refusing to pay for the products/horses.

Have I gone through something like this, yes Twice. Both times in Canada.

Only one got resolved because of someone of considerable influence helped me out.

Other.. I lost out of $5,000.

I will no longer take payments because of these two horrible experiences.


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## supaspot (Mar 14, 2011)

Im another mug in the same situation, its been almost three years and ive had less than a quarter of his price , she doesnt answer phone calls or emails and ignores all letters ...and Ive lost a "friend"


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## Field-of-Dreams (Mar 14, 2011)

Ww did repo one horse who was on a free lease. We had gone over her house to pick some paperwork up, and went to the back to see the horses. They were skin and bone. We immediately went home and got the trailer. Took the guy right off the property and left.


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## KayAnn (Mar 14, 2011)

I'm sorry this has happened to all of you...


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## iowa (Mar 14, 2011)

I got stuck once with someone owing a fairly small amount on the horse which did not make it worthwhile to pursue. But I will never let a horse leave the place without full payment again. I think if the people can't get a loan at the bank for the horse, why should I become their banker? Why don't people go get a loan at a bank? I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but a small minority ruin it for everyone else.


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## iowa (Mar 14, 2011)

minimomNC said:


> I heard of a big guy in Lizard Lick that does repossessions, what his contact info LOL.


Is Lizard Lick a real town? What a unique name!


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## [email protected] (Mar 14, 2011)

I have and do sell horses on payment plans, my one caveat with buyers, please don't make me play collection agent. I hate that.

I've been considering the payments, but horse doesn't leave policy as I'm sick of the no paying/singing the blues/no paying, etc., and then having to get the horse back, not in the best of care. Too many rescues last year.

I have bought on payments (years ago), but now if I can't afford it I don't buy.

I do like what Jean did, if they're going to mess around out of state, then give them back some of the same. Good for you Jean!


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## chandab (Mar 14, 2011)

iowa said:


> Is Lizard Lick a real town? What a unique name!


Don't know if its a town, but it is the name of the towing company; they have a TV show on TruTV channel (it happens to be on right now).


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## Katiean (Mar 15, 2011)

I have bought horses on payments and was very thankful to be able to get them that way. I sold A TB way back when. They gave me the check. I had delivered him. I went strait to their bank with the check. The bank marked the check NON SUFFICIENT FUNDS




. I went right back to their farm and their daughter was saddling up my horse. I told her to get her saddle off of my horse and put him back in the trailer. When the dad came out and asked what was wrong. I told him he gave me a rubber check and I was taking my horse and going home. He took the check and went and got me cash.

I also sold Yorkies on payments. I would always stress to the person buying the puppy "Don't tell me a date you will pay your payment if you are going to have a problem making that payment". It also stated in my contract if one payment date was missed, the next day they were to surrender the puppy. I had 1 lady give me a bad check to cover a payment. I never deposit checks from someone I take it to their bank and cash it. When the check was no good. I called her to let her know I was coming to pick up the puppy. She discovered I was not playing at all. She got the cash and never missed another payment. I know "the next day" thing isn't normal practice, however, if they sign it, you can enforce it. An attorney wrote my contracts for my dogs.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 21, 2011)

Update in post 1. Thank you.


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## Sheri Hill (Mar 21, 2011)

My hubbys brother and wife got a horse for free from some friends, later they someone take her to TRY out to see if they wanted to buy her. Found out that she was telling everyone they gave her to her and that she was planning on selling her at the Auction the next week. They went to the authorities and they then went to the Auction people and gave them a heads up and they said they will not let her sell anything there anymore and will watch for sign up of the horse. The authorities and Daves brother and wife were at the auction when she showed up. In the end he police told her she would be charged for horse theft and arrested if she didn't return the horse immediately and then she was quick to deliver the horse back to them! I would contact the authorities and see if they can help you. If you have the papers (plus her new payment plan that she defaulted on) you should have the right to repocess your horse, but I would take the police with you. Contact the police and animal control etc. and see what steps to go get it with the police.

Sheri


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## Riverdance (Mar 21, 2011)

Parmala,

So sorry that you are going through this. I very rarely will sell a horse on payments and let the horse go off of my farm before they are paid for. Not unless the buyer is in the same state and I can easily go and pick it up.

As for contacting someone in AMHA and AMHR, I do not think that they get involved with this kind of thing as it seems to happen all of the time.

Good luck, and if I were you, i would go pick them up if they are close enough.

My contracts state that if the buyer quits making payments, that I am entitled to get the horse back at their expense and no monies are to be returned from the payments.


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 21, 2011)

If you can't get the sheriff to go with you, take someone who can be a reputable witness. Take pictures and keep a record of calls or electronic contact.

You might not want to let them know you are coming, as they could lock gates or move the horse.

It is a good thought to contact any local sale barns and alert them about a possible stolen horse going through.


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## weebiscuit (Mar 21, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Feel free to respond here or email me or PM me. Some of the things I'm wondering is do you go through the local Sheriff's department or would you go yourself and attempt to get the horses? Are there any legal things that should be done before trying to get them...such as (I'm totally guessing here) notifying the person by certified mail of my intent to pick up the horses, giving them written timeframe to pay all that is owed before I'd do it, etc.


I've never let that happen because I never let a horse leave my property until it's been paid in full and I know for certain the check has cleared. When I don't know the buyer or have any doubt at all, I request the payment in a cashier's check and let the buyer know that the horse doesn't leave until it's cleared. I haven't had any buyers balk at that arrangement.

I feel just awful for you! But I don't think you can charge onto the property to reclaim your horses without getting arrested for trespassing. Instead of talking to the Sheriff, I think I would maybe go to the District Attorney and tell them of your situation and they might send a letter to the people telling them they have so many days to contact you to make arrangements for you to pick up your horses or else. Or perhaps just hire a regular attorney who can send them a letter by certified mail telling them they have to turn over the horses or go to court. A lot of people do not like the idea of being hauled into court, where all their friends and neighbors can find out they are cheaters.

I'm so sorry this has happened! And from now on, never let a horse leave until you have payment in full!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 21, 2011)

Papers are worthless. All that means is you retain registration, has nothing to do with legal ownership.


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## Reble (Mar 21, 2011)

Sorry but Police or sheriff, cannot do anything.

Has to now go in front of a judge.

You can try a a local credit risk management in your area.

Had to do this with a puppy not paid, filed a complaint.

They take a percentage if money is received, but does go on their credit rating.

They send a letter of notice etc., but she was not moved.

Never know they just might get worried and return the horse.

Did not get any money back or puppy but did give them bad credit rating, so to be able to get credit, would have to fix this up maybe someday.

Good Luck keep us posted.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 21, 2011)

Thanks for the advice here and via emails, etc. I contacted AMHA and they were very helpful in that they made notations in each of the horses' records that no duplicate certificates or any other workorders should be executed without contacting me first. I haven't talked with R yet. I talked with the Sheriff in her county and he was very helpful also. He said to bring paperwork showing agreement to purchase and her last email that admitted she owed me money and has her own plan outlined for payment which she already defaulted on again. I am to call him and he will send a deputy to the property with me.

It's not ideal, but I think its all I can ask for at this point.

And as a side note... I want to make something very clear as a couple of folks have made incorrect assumptions. This issue has NOTHING to do with Spirit or any horse marked as sold or sale pending on my site. All of those buyers have been wonderful!

Thanks again for all the advice!


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## Carolyn R (Mar 21, 2011)

I hope it all works out, hopefully all goes well and they are received in the same condition that they left your care. Such an aweful outcome.


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## Katiean (Mar 21, 2011)

~Lisa~ said:


> Well I will tell you this. technically you have no rights to the horse if it is in someone elses possession. If they refuse to give you the horse you will have to go to court. Most law enforcement will not get involved in a civil matter- contract or not and he who has possession of the horse keeps it until a court order says otherwise.
> 
> You yourself could get arrested if the person in possession calls the police on you
> 
> At least that is what I was told perhaps things have changed since then?


So basically what you are saying is if I take my horses to a private stable and the person (only boarding 1-2 horses) decides they want my horses, they can keep them? This is the same thing because someone that has no legal claim on said horses, won't let you collect them. They are not paid for so they do not belong to the person that has possession of them. Try the Brand inspector. You have the papers which is proof that these are your horses. However, you might just have to take them to court and sue for return of the horses. Tell the judge that you do not want money except for your court costs. Tell the judge you just want your horses back. They can then go to jail for contempt of court if they do not return the horses by the date the judge set.


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## RockRiverTiff (Mar 21, 2011)

With everything else you've endured recently, I'm really sorry you're having to go through this too Parmela. I hope you get your horses back ASAP. With no lease or contract in the AMHA/AMHR offices and with the papers still in your possession I don't know if contacting them is necessary unless the other party is a member and you want to report them.


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## Knottymare (Mar 21, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Thanks again! Seems like I've need more help lately. I'm being more of a taker than a giver these days to the forum. Sorry about that.


I doubt anyone even notices. Seems more that people like you so much they just want to help you... cuz you are always there with an encouraging word or a pat on the back.

Hang in there...


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## Reble (Mar 21, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I talked with the Sheriff in her county and he was very helpful also. He said to bring paperwork showing agreement to purchase and her last email that admitted she owed me money and has her own plan outlined for payment which she already defaulted on again. I am to call him and he will send a deputy to the property with me.
> 
> It's not ideal, but I think its all I can ask for at this point.
> 
> Thanks again for all the advice!


that is good news the sheriff is trying to help. Good Luck, Hope this is solved soon with out any more problems.


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## HGFarm (Mar 21, 2011)

Parmela I would go with the sheriff to the property and pick your horses up! I dont think the people would argue with the sheriff there. They know they have not paid and are ignoring you. Before you go, jot down the dates you have contacted them, and how- (phone, email, etc...) as you may have to prove that you did contact them- might even bring a copy of your phone bill and some of the emails you have sent that have gone unanswered.

I hope the horses are still there and hope they are ok!!

I will continue to sell to folks on payments, as not just everyone can go plunk down all the money at one time... I understand that. But I also have a written contract with details AND the horse does not leave my place until paid for. MOST of my buyers have been wonderful and many paid off early. So I am not going to punish others for what a couple of people didnt do.


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## [email protected] (Mar 21, 2011)

Good idea bout contacting AMHA & AMHR, not that they can get involved but so they can make a note in the horses file that NO duplicate papers, foals aren't registered with 'your signature' without a phone call to you.

I have a couple of outstanding/behind payment cases right now. One is out of state, two aren't. I'm trying to be flexible because of the economy, but still, I'd just like it completed and to be paid.

Good luck Parmela.


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## MindyLee (Mar 21, 2011)

I just reciently went through a situation with ownership of one of my mares and I contacted both AMHA and AMHR. AMHA sent me a letter in the mail stating I was indeed the true owner of my mare and had been for a couple of yrs. AMHR did'nt really want to get involved but did send me a letter stating the same thing, I was the true owner and had been for a couple of yrs also. That way since my situation was going to small claims court, I had proof that I did truely owned this mare and records from both registries proved it and that nothing was altered.

Good Luck and hope you get them back!


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## SampleMM (Mar 22, 2011)

I had to repo a Quarter Horse gelding for a friend about a month ago. We were really lucky and found out that the horse was going for x-rays at a vet hospital about 2 1/2 hours away from us. I hooked up the truck and trailer and after the exam and x-rays were done, my friend and I told the vet who the rightful owner was and we loaded up the horse and left. It sounds sneaky but these people jerked my friend around for months and had ample opportunity to pay for him. She was told excuse after excuse and these people had the nerve to bad mouth us for taking the horse. Last time I checked, a horse w/ over 300 AQHA points........isn't free.



This story has a very happy ending though, a week after the repo and handicap boy tried him out and loves him to pieces. It was a win/win for everyone.


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## rabbitsfizz (Mar 22, 2011)

Katiean said:


> So basically what you are saying is if I take my horses to a private stable and the person (only boarding 1-2 horses) decides they want my horses, they can keep them? This is the same thing because someone that has no legal claim on said horses, won't let you collect them. They are not paid for so they do not belong to the person that has possession of them. Try the Brand inspector. You have the papers which is proof that these are your horses. However, you might just have to take them to court and sue for return of the horses. Tell the judge that you do not want money except for your court costs. Tell the judge you just want your horses back. They can then go to jail for contempt of court if they do not return the horses by the date the judge set.


No, it is not the same thing at all.

With one you have contracted to keep your horses there, not contracted to sell.

With the other you allowed the animal to leave your property willingly, and with foreknowledge of the fact, but with the assumption of payment.

So, if payments have been made (I am assuming that some of the price has been paid?) the horse is no longer yours, per se, only a _part_ of the horse!

IF the contract had stated intention to repossess should _any_ default of payment be made, you would be on stronger ground, that is the way that car sales go, but it is very rarely the firm that sells the car that makes the agreement, it is a private loan firm that makes and enforces the agreement.

In the case of the horses boarded, you would still have to go through the law, technically, to repossess the horses, as you have no rights to enter private property in order to get your horses- in fact, most law officers would quietly take you on the property and stand around being "there" whilst you get them, which is all they can do- they will not help you repossess them and neither will the ones that are accompanying Parmela- they have no rights and, if challenged, can stretch the law a bit, but if the gates are locked and entry is denied they will be able to do nothing, so give NO indication you are intending to do this.

It cuts both ways- you might be lying, the paperwork could be false, the owner might have paid for the horses and have received no bill of sale form you- how would you feel if all this had happened then the Law cam and made you give up the horses?


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## mizbeth (Mar 22, 2011)

When I finance a horse I always put a clause in the contract to cover this exact thing, that the buyer will allow you to come and get the horse without legal/court action in case of default. I once (nearly) repossed a horse in NM., I was in Texas. The lady finally came up with all the money to pay him off and did so once I had secured the hauler to go and get him.

Out of state transactions like this are hard to coordinate though, most haulers do not want to get involved and the cost to get the horse back could be prohibitive. I do not finanace out of state horses anymore, without a large down payment in any case.

If you ever do go to court, the Judge can rule in anyones favor, sometimes courts do not make sense or do the right thing.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 22, 2011)

Katiean said:


> So basically what you are saying is if I take my horses to a private stable and the person (only boarding 1-2 horses) decides they want my horses, they can keep them? This is the same thing because someone that has no legal claim on said horses, won't let you collect them. They are not paid for so they do not belong to the person that has possession of them. Try the Brand inspector. You have the papers which is proof that these are your horses. However, you might just have to take them to court and sue for return of the horses. Tell the judge that you do not want money except for your court costs. Tell the judge you just want your horses back. They can then go to jail for contempt of court if they do not return the horses by the date the judge set.



No, you have a boarding contract and they are providing a service. If you stopped paying, yes, they could take your horses and sell them if they wish.


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## targetsmom (Mar 22, 2011)

That was actually how we got my very first horse back in 1960, but I bet things are still the same. People moved away and didn't pay the board, so the boarding stable sold the mare and we bought her. They were very up-front about it.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 22, 2011)

Yup. Its called a Horsemen's Lein. You still have to go through the courts, but its easy to do.


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## Katiean (Mar 22, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> No, you have a boarding contract and they are providing a service. If you stopped paying, yes, they could take your horses and sell them if they wish.


you do not always have a boarding contract. I boarded across the street from me for about 10 years. There was no contract. So you are telling me that because the horses were on the other peoples property with no contract, they could have taken them from me at any time saying they were their horses? I do not think so. It isn't that way in CA, NV or UT. If there is a dispute about the rightful owner, they belong to the person with the papers or proof that they are theirs. I do believe the only way a partially paid for horse dispute is settled is in court. But, if you went armed with the papers (with pictures on the back) showing they were your horses you could get them back. We even had 3 horses stolen from that pasture with a fence ripped out. I found who had my horses (they took them about 20 miles away). They said I could have them back if I bought a horse trailer (didn't have one). I told them if my horses were not back by nightfall, the sheriff would be calling. I got them back. That was in CA. Here in Nevada you have to have the brand inspector out to prove that they are your horses. So, if my horses are on your property and I want them back. I have the papers and I bring the brand inspector to verrify they are my horses. I think if I were in a state that said possession was the law, I think I would move.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 22, 2011)

Papers don't mean anything, unfortunately. Bill of sale, yes. But registration doesn't mean anything.


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## Katiean (Mar 22, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Papers don't mean anything, unfortunately. Bill of sale, yes. But registration doesn't mean anything.


That is not how it is out west. Maybe you guys need better laws.


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## valshingle (Mar 22, 2011)

Certain states are Brand states (CO, NV, etc) but most are not. A Horseman's Lien is used by a boarding stable IF they have you sign a boarding contract.

Basically, whatever the situation - have a good legal contract to help address all these situations.

I personally would like to thank all the people who have let me buy horses on payments over the years - some even from out of state. I always give references of previous sellers when asking if I can make payments. I've never been late and usually pay the horse off early. So thanks - you know who you are


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## Katiean (Mar 23, 2011)

If you are boarding a horse or two at John Doe's house down the road, more times than not, you do not have a contract. IDK, when you boarding at "Just someones house" you do not necessarily have a contract. I know, it is kind of dumb. However, most people keeping a horse down the street, do not think of a contract. So I am saying NO contract and the person decides he wants the horses he is boarding for someone else, He can keep them because they are on their property?

I know this is off topic but I am having a hard time wrapping my head around this. I guess I better stay in a Brand inspector state.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 23, 2011)

Even in brand states, registration papers still mean nothing. The breed organization does not have any legal authority to proclaim ownership. They just manage their own breed records and members. They can kick offenders out of their shows and their registry, they can deny horses papers, they can kick horses out of the breed. But they can not manage ownership! In brand states, all that matters is that bill of sale (I have two sitting in my safe, I bought them in CO). But there is an issue with that. The bill of sale is not a contract (well, it is, but read on). If I sell a horse in the state of Colorado, I have to provide MY bill of sale certificate to the brand inspector proving that I have authority to sell said horse. So, if I sell a horse on payments, to another CO resident, I have to go to the horse's new home and sign off on the sale to the inspector. If I sell the horse out of state, NOBODY CARES. Colorado will not pursue the horse, its not in their jurisdiction. The other state won't care, because it was sold out of state. And if I did want to get a brand inspection bill of sale, I'd have to bring the horse BACK to my house, have it inspected, then send it back to the state where it was purchased. Who would do that?!

Moral of the story. Don't let a horse out of sight until its paid for!!

And you're just silly if you board ANYWHERE without a contract. Just plain ol silly. Yes, 90% of the time everything will be hunky doory. But when you have an issue you have NOTHING to stand on.


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## Katiean (Mar 23, 2011)

Nathan, I know you "think" you are totally right. But you are NOT! What I am saying about the papers is not to get the registry involved, but to prove that this is infact the horse in question. I have 1 mare that on her temporary were her foal pictures. You could still tell that it was THAT horse and she has no white marks. When you say registration papers mean nothing, you are wrong. It is proof of ownership. What about the horses that you breed and do not have a bill of sale on? Then what you have is the registration with the discription of the horse and PICTURES. So, if you have a time pay contract, record of payments that were or were not made, and the registration papers. You have proof that the horses in question are infact still yours and you have the right to recover them. End of subject.


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## ohmt (Mar 23, 2011)

Nathan is right-papers mean nothing legally, only with the registries. At least that's what i've always understood.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 24, 2011)

Here's my thought on the papers...

They are not a bill of sale, I get that. And the registries probably aren't going to get into the middle of a legal battle over ownership, but having those papers in hand does give me some leverage. I can contact them, as in this case, and make them aware that no work orders should be executed without contacting me, and includes transfers. They are great documents for describing the horse...pictures, dob, height, sex, markings, etc. They show a chain of custody in many cases with the list of owners.

And in my case, having the papers, the buyer having no bill of sale, me having a signed contract stating the papers stay in my possession until paid in full...it all adds to the clarity of my case should I need to go to court. The sheriff was sure interested in seeing who had them in hand - me or the buyer. In this case, me!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 24, 2011)

What if I buy a horse from you, and don't transfer papers? Does that mean you still own it?

Or in my case, I didn't register my mini with the WCMHA, I registered him with the PtHA. Does that mean that the person who did register him originally with the WCMHA still owns him? Or, what if I stole him, and hardshipped him into AMHA or PtHA, does that mean because I have papers he's automatically mine?


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## Carolyn R (Mar 24, 2011)

Parmela, you are doing a good job putting this info together. I don't think any one of these factors could stand on its own, but between the emails, the contract, the papers, it starts to paint a picture. There is no reason to needlessly get yourself frustrated by playing the Devil's Advocate of "what ifs". (heck, life is full of what ifs, like What if, God forbid, you go to pick them up and the BIG GUY says its your turn. Life is funny like that, you just never know what is going to happen.)

_Meeting with the authorities, with info in hand, and possibly going to the farm with the authorities may be enough to end things peaceably. _

_Point being, all you can do is take it step by step, document things, and approach it with a rational mind set, which you are already doing. _


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## Reble (Mar 24, 2011)

Carolyn R said:


> Parmela, you are doing a good job putting this info together. I don't think any one of these factors could stand on its own, but between the emails, the contract, the papers, it starts to paint a picture. There is no reason to needlessly get yourself frustrated by playing the Devil's Advocate of "what ifs". (heck, life is full of what ifs, like What if, God forbid, you go to pick them up and the BIG GUY says its your turn. Life is funny like that, you just never know what is going to happen.)
> 
> _Meeting with the authorities, with info in hand, and possibly going to the farm with the authorities may be enough to end things peaceably. _
> 
> _Point being, all you can do is take it step by step, document things, and approach it with a rational mind set, which you are already doing. _


I agree with Carolyn R, go with the authorities and see what happens, court can be a long drawn or deal.

Good Luck and keep us posted.

Have as much info as possible to show them.


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## HGFarm (Mar 24, 2011)

Ditto Carolyn R's advice there.... just get all your documentation together and away you go.


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## bunni1900 (Jun 18, 2011)

I am going through the same thing with a "friend" of mine. We had an agreement that I would buy the horse and she would buy it from me. That was September. The horses Bill of Sale and papers are in my name. She has since gone off the deep end and doesn't consider me a friend anymore. I sent her a letter saying that she had until the 1st of July to pay in full or "legal action will be taken to return the horse to it's legal owner". Nothing thus far. Getting anxious!


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jun 19, 2011)

bunni1900 said:


> I am going through the same thing with a "friend" of mine. We had an agreement that I would buy the horse and she would buy it from me. That was September. The horses Bill of Sale and papers are in my name. She has since gone off the deep end and doesn't consider me a friend anymore. I sent her a letter saying that she had until the 1st of July to pay in full or "legal action will be taken to return the horse to it's legal owner". Nothing thus far. Getting anxious!


So sorry you are going through this too. I hope the best for you. Are the horses at her farm and is it far away?

I the 3 months since I posted I have received $125 total from my person. So that's $125 since November of 2010. Toward 3 horses! I have made her send pictures of the horses with a sign stating the date so I could see their condition. They look fed and trimmed so that was relieving.


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## supaspot (Jun 19, 2011)

my situation is not exactly the same but I did sell a horse to a friend (ha!) on payments , she paid nothing for the first year less than a hundred euro in the second year and nothing since , its 3 yrs ago now , she never answers emails or phone calls and completely blanks me , Ive done nothing wrong , I have been completely polite and civil to her when Ive asked for payment (and that has been hard for me to keep my mouth shut) but she acts like Im the bad guy !


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## ohmt (Jun 19, 2011)

Please everyone, make sure you get ALL money up front. We have come across a couple of people the past few years who make a down payment, ask the owners if they can take the horse and make payments and then the person is never heard from again. It's an awful situation to be in.


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## valshingle (Jun 19, 2011)

I have bought several horses on payments, but always offer references from previous sellers as proof of my reliability. Thank you to those of you that have allowed me to do that. On the other hand, I would never allow payments on a horse that I was selling without getting references from people that I know.

Good luck to those of you who have been stiffed.

I've only had a problem with someone who stiffed me for the money of a C-section for a mare she "couldn't afford to feed". She came on my property when she knew I wasn't home to get her mare (after she had recovered). She ignored all payment requests from my vet, who I felt obligated to pay because he performed the C-section at my request (after I had gotten a verbal ok from the owner). So, it was a $1800 lesson learned.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Jun 19, 2011)

If I know you and you have a good reputation, I'd probably let the horse go on a contract. Ontherwise, he stays here until paid in full. Just safer that way and DOES tend to make the buyer pay a bit faster, as they want their new baby NOW!!


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