# ASPR and NSPPR Heights



## ckmini (May 10, 2012)

Just for clarification (I keep seeing this Hackney mare for sale in my area that I really don't need, I think she's too tall, but broke to ride and drive, kid safe on the ground, just not under saddle/harness, so I'm asking anyway




): ASPR ponies must have 1 shetland or 1 hackney parent and must measure under 48" WITH shoes?

Also for the NSPPR do the same parentage rules apply? (or does one parent HAVE to be shetland?)

**edited to change height to 48" (not sure where the 54" number came from)


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## Farina (May 10, 2012)

I am no expert but in my understanding ASPR can be Hackney, Shetland or Hackney x Shetland.

With NSPR at least one parent has to be registered with ASPC or AMHR and the offspring whois going to be registered will need to be DNA'd. Beginning this year the parent of the offspring just need to be on the stallion report or the breeder's certificate. (Please correct me if Iam wrong)

I am not sure about the height but I think that ASPR has to be under 48" and NSPR can be up to 14 hh tall.


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## Minimor (May 10, 2012)

NSPPR ponies can be up to 14.2 and must have one parent that is ASPC or AMHR registered.

ASPR has a maximum height of 48". They can be Shetland, Hackney, or a cross of Shetland x Hackney, Hackney x Show Pony, Shetland x Show Pony or Show Pony x Show Pony...I think I covered them all??


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## muffntuf (May 10, 2012)

ASPR ponies must have 1 shetland or 1 hackney parent and must measure under 48" WITH shoes? -

As Holly said

ASPR

Shetland X Hackney (48" with shoes)

Hackney X Hackney (48" with shoes)

Shetland X Shetland (48" with shoes)

ASPR X ASPR (48" with shoes)

NSPPR

14. 2 and under

One parent must be ASPC or AMHR, the other parent is the cross, including grades.


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## ckmini (May 11, 2012)

Thanks everyone, that's what I thought. The mare I've had my eye on is just too tall then (which is probably for the best haha)


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## Norah (Jun 1, 2012)

when you say "shetland" as one of the parents .... your meaning American shetland , not just mixing with any unregistered Shetland right ? the Shetland has to be registered right ? I ask this because its confusing with Germany who is cross breeding ASPC AMHR horses with Shetland ponys and calling the new breed ASPIR.


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## muffntuf (Jun 1, 2012)

Yes ASPC Shetland. ASPIR is not a cross between Shetland Ponies or AMHR. American Shetland Pony International Registry - will not allow that.


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## Norah (Jun 3, 2012)

but I believe they are breeding ASPC horses with International registered Shetlands, and labeling it ASPIR ...this is what I understand , and see . If you look at the web pages of people with ASPC horses overseas its clear that they are breeding the ASPC horse with an "open or unregistered " Shetland and calling it an ASPIR .....and its being allowed , or "overlooked".... I can tell you it is being done , right or wrong , they are doing it . Who can I contact about this ? do we have a new international breed promoter that is working for ASPC AMHR ? We really need one that will help sort things out . We also have a problem with AMHA shows refusing to add a class or 2 for the AMHR or ASPC horses , as they follow AMHA rules , and turn their heads to the ASPC horses . In my oppinion they are just as eligant and graceful as the AMHA horses ( my ASPC mare won the Championship against AMHA horses ; )

If AMHA wont allow ASPC horses to be shown, then maybe AMHR ASPC will have to modify their rules in Europe to allow AMHA registered horses and classes at an AMHR ASPC show .... then finally all 3 registries can actually work TOGETHER instead of against another . maybe its time for AMHR ASPC to step up to the plate and be the better opponant and allow this since AMHA wont . Cant we all just get along ? Once there are shows available for ASPC horses I guarentee more people will start buying them , as they are pretty , graceful, and easier to keep in show shape ! Sorry to be so strongly against this , but i paid a lot of money for my mare , and it cheapens her breed to think that people would be buying a mixed breed for a better price . For this reason alone i am thankful that I am not a breeder , and will not breed her unless the foal just for me to show . I am looking at no more showing at the moment because everyone hosting a show says the same thing "sorry its an AMHA show " no 37 inch horses allowed or ASPC horses ... Better idea , have an AMHR show and allow AMHA horses on a separate day . I dont think anyone here needs those points. We need to work on this !


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## Farina (Jun 3, 2012)

Sorry, but I wouldn't approve to mix the shows for AMHA and AMHR/ASPC. Why shoud I pay a lot of money to hardship my horses into AMHR? Who would pay at the registry for the extra work keeping up point tabulation for these horses?

Any AMHA could be registered with AMHR so no need for mixing the shows.

BTW: For incorrect registration of horses you can allways contact Zona. But it is stated in the ruebook that for ASPIR every registered Shetland Pony (native or Deutsches Partbred Shetland Pony) is eligible for registration. I have tried to make a rule change proposal last year to at least close ASPIR to native and to just allow crosses any further. I didn't attend Convention last year so don't know what was said about it. In the rulebook nothing is changed anyway.


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## Norah (Jun 3, 2012)

I know you did this

who said anything about hardshipping ..i am talking about having classes for all 3 races , or registries of horses, so people witrh ASPC horses can show them . they are currently ONLY having shows for AMHA horses here in Europe , with the exception of Germany who has mixed the ASPC breed with the Native Shetlands and Dutsches pony which means in translation "german pony"

I dont want to have to enter my ASPC show horse in a class with backyard bred , kids ponys ...sorry , not fair to me , not fair to the kids ponys or "german ponys and assorted native shetlands " I spent a lot of money on my horse and importing it , why should I be in a class with a native shetland like below ? Its a beautiful horse , but tell me how the 2 can be mixed in a class ???


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## Norah (Jun 3, 2012)

It is my understanding that ASPIR was allowed because Germany worked hard to establish it , as Canada had this mixed breed association-approval thing before and it worked for them ...... , and now your stating that your working to get it closed to the native shetland when it should have never been allowed in the first place IMO . If you tell people that its OK to mix the breed with a native Shetland they will do it not knowing wheather its a good idea or not , are there health risks to breeding a refined mare with a heavy boned larger horse ? I am not a breeder but my common sense says "yes" how many uninformed people will think its cool to mix a refined mare to a huge robust stallion thinking they will automaticaly get a refined foal ....a lot ! i am betting on it : (

And now you say you dont want it done anymore . Help me understand this thinking . I agree 100% it should be stopped , but you asked for it to be allowed , and now saying it should be stopped for mixing one breed but not mixing with the other breed will create a lot of hostility from the people that are breeding ASPC and native horses , and trying to make a living from it .I think both should be stopped ...There are enough ASPC mares and stallions in Europe and in Germany that cross breeding doesnt need to be done , and mixing the breed with a heavy boned native or german pony isnt going to create anything new and wonderful that you cant already get within the registry- for example Foundation, classic , Modern Hackeny .... its all there within the registry without having to make something "new"

The problem i see in Europe is that we currently have ASPC, AMHR , ASP, ,NSPR and now ASPIR horses with no ability to show them in Europe with the exceptipn of Germany , where you are hosting a private show on your property for ASPIR horses .... There must be something we can do so that the people who purchased ASPC, AMHR horses from America and imported them have a place to show them as ASPC AMHR purebred horses , not in a mixed unregistered open class for every breed under the sun under 48 inches tall. To tell you the truth Austria doesnt have a "place "in their shows for anything under 34 inches , France either , Ireland ...nope , Switzerland , we had 1 but i doubt we will have another as it was very costly , Holland ...Nope , Italy NO ...I am running out of possible countries to show my horses : (

Can you answer 1 question for me about the ASPIR registry ....why did Germany feel the need to open this new registry that is "tolorated " but not fully approved if they have more ASPR AMHR ASP ponys then any other country ?


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## Minimor (Jun 3, 2012)

If you want AMHR/ASPC shows then why not just organize those? Is it necessary to include AMHA? That is what we do here-we have AMHR/ASPC shows and if anyone says they want AMHA as well they are told that if they want to organize the AMHA show then one can be included. There are shows in another province that are AMHA and AMHR but they absolutely refuse to add ASPC classes.

This year our AMHR ASPC show includes open classes for unregistered ponies- I don't see a problem with this but those unregistered horses will not be showing against registered ones in this instance. Even if our show had AMHA classes the AMHA horses would never show against ASPC or AMHR (unless the R horses were also A registered and were showing AMHA-or the A horses are registered R and showing AMHR...whichever. We are not allowed to have AMHA and AMHR shows on the same day. Are the classes there all mixed?


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## Minimor (Jun 3, 2012)

Excuse me, Canada does not haveas mixed breed registry; the CPS is the Canadian registry for Shetland ponies.


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## Norah (Jun 3, 2012)

Sorry Minimor, I was told that they (canada) were the first to have ASPIR .... I must have misunderstood . I paid for an ASPC AMHR approved show . We had only 3 horses compete , my 2 classic mares and another stallion that went in as an AMHR because there are no other ASPC horses here in Switzerland and no one from Germany wanted to come . So we tried that , and it didnt work... no one seemed interested in the breed sadly : ( I would love to send you the class list so you could see for yourself ...you will be suprised !

I am trying to get someone to allow up to 46 inch horses in their show .... no one wants to . I guess the only option is to have my own show , and compete against my own horses ...I am not liking that idea . It would be great if people that were having a show for AMHA horses would allow a day or end of a day to include ASPC AMHR horses . I have offered to pay , to buy the trophies , to organize etc ... no one seems interested . Switzerland is very small ... we have less then 10 ASPC horses here , only 2 of us are serious about showing .... The people in Switzerland are more interested in performance classes like for example "pony tricks , and log pulling "halter and conformation classes are NOT popular here . If i can just get someone that is hosting a "pony " show (like a dog agility) and they accept my donations to have a halter class for ASPC and AMHR horses i would be thrilled ... it seems .crazy that this is so hard to accomplish. There are 3 shows a year in Switzerland , one wont accept ASPC horses even if they compete as an unregistered horse : (

The show i just did .... and 1 other that is only a performance class ( agility) Things are very different here in Europe , only in England would you have the variety of multiple shows ... could you imagine just 3 shows a year , 2 allowing halter classes , one of those only for AMHA horses and you have a beautiful ASPC halter horse .... head banging against the wall !

sorry about the canada thing I was told by a someone that knew a lot about the registry , so i assumed it was right ... but out of your oppinion Minimor what do you think about ASPIR ? does this impact your international sales ? Would it bother you if you lived in Europe and bred ASPC horses ?


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## Minimor (Jun 3, 2012)

We do not and never have (as far as I know) used ASPIR here in Canada. We have the Canadian Pony Society (CPS) which registers Shetlands and some other pony breeds. Here is the requirements for CPS registration:

*SHETLAND PONIES *– Standard 44 inches
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a. Animals the sires and dams of which are recorded in the Canadian Pony Stud
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Book.
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b. Animals imported from any country must be recorded in a registry recognized by
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the Canadian Pony Society, and must show at least three successive generations of
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purebred registered ancestry on both the sire and dam side. Note: Animals recorded in
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Section B of the American Shetland Pony Club Stud Book and their offspring are not
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eligible for registration in the Canadian Pony Stud Book.
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I confess that I do not know what other breeds are eligible for CPS registration--and it doesn't matter to me what they are. There are a number of Canadian breeders who have imported ASPC ponies and registered them with CPS. When they breed those ponies they very often register with CPS only and do not get ASPC papers on their foals. Somewhere in the future these CPS ponies can obtain their ASPC papers. In the event that one of these ponies is bred to a CPS pony that is not ASPC eligible, then the resulting foal and any future descendants of that foal are not eligible to get ASPC papers. I have no problem with that. I personally do not register my ponies with CPS--all it amounts to is an extra expenditure--CPS papers get me nothing. Our shows are ASPC and anyone wanting to show their CPS ponies at these shows must first obtain ASPC papers on those ponies. If someone wants to get ASPC papers on their 4th generation CPS pony and show against us, I have no problem with that. If someone wants to get ASPC papers on their CPS pony that is half ASPC & half Dartmoor, they won't be able to do it. I don't think that the ASPIR ponies that are half ASPC and half German riding pony are eligible for ASPC papers (I'm quite sure they are not?) and I don't think they are eligible to show in ASPC classes? There would have to be ASPIR classes for those ponies?
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If someone wants to raise 1/2 ASPC 1/2 Dartmoor ponies with CPS registration papers, that's no skin off my nose. That is something different than a full ASPC pony, and if there is a market for that Dartmoor cross then more power to them. There is absolutely no point in a Shetland breeder complaining that the Dartmoor cross is ruining the Shetland market. If there is an open show that provides a class that is open to any pony 12.2 hands and under and you have to show in that against Miniatures and English Shetlands and ASPC/German riding pony crosses I'm afraid I don't see that as being any different than here where we can go to some of the open fairs and compete in the open pony class--it might be 12.2 hands & under where we would compete against Welsh and whatever small mixed breed ponies might be at the show, or it might be 14.2 hands & under where we could find ourselves competing against a hackney or a small Quarter Horse or Morgan or Welsh. It happens a lot, and if we want to show we show where there are classes available. It was the same back when we were showing Morgans--there wasn't much for Morgan shows available here, so we showed at the open shows, and won against QH and Appaloosas and Arabians and Paints. Open shows where you find yourself showing against anything and everything have always been kind of a way of life here and I always enjoyed those shows.
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I am well aware of predjudice against certain breeds or registries. When I was a kid showing in 4H it was a QH world--and I was showing a Morgan. It was sometimes difficult to win and when I did win there was always someone in the club who was upset about it. When I got my first ASPC pony there were no ASPC classes available here. Then the local AMHR show organizers were kind enough to allow a small list of ASPC classes the next year, and now we have two rated ASPC shows held in conjunction with the AMHR shows. We don't have a great Shetland entry either--most pony owners here have ASPC/AMHR horses and show in AMHR. The CPS owners in the province don't bother with ASPC registration and so cannot show--and I'm not sure that they would have any interest in showing anyway. ASPC ponies are rare here, and people are interested in seeing them--so even though we are often showing against ourselves it is still fun to take the ponies out & show them off to people who may not have seen ponies of this type before. Here in Manitoba there are still so many people who hear "Shetland" and think of the small, dumpy little pony they knew when they were kids--those people are always so surprised to see our ponies! Like I said, I can name off one AMHR show committee that is absolutely opposed to allowing ASPC ponies to have classes at their AMHR shows. It's the same registry--ASPC/AMHR--yet an AMHR show won't agree to add any ASPC classes, not even when ASPC owners offer assistance with setting up the class list and not even when there is someone who has offered to sponsor the ASPC class ribbons. It would cost that show committee nothing to add those classes, and still they refuse. So, owners in that area have to show at open shows or they have to haul miles and miles to get to shows that do offer ASPC classes. Or they don't show--that's just the way it is.
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## Norah (Jun 3, 2012)

you have a lot of good points ..: )

so a CPS and ASPC pony can register its foal with ASPC ?

how different looking is a CPS vs a Classic Shetland ? the native shetlands are completely different then an ASPC ..


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## Minimor (Jun 3, 2012)

I don't believe that you could register the foal from the ASPC x CPS breeding as ASPC unless the CPS parent first got its ASPC papers but I would have to verify that. Certainly you could not get ASPC papers on that foal if the CPS parent's pedigree was not 100% ASPC.

How does a CPS Shetland compare in looks to an ASPC classic Shetland? Little different since so many of the CPS Shetlands were ASPC ponies that were imported into Canada and then registered with CPS. There are a number of Michigan ponies that are CPS registered. The CPS Shetlands here in Manitoba are generally the older ASPC breeding without so much hackney influence but they look little different from the ASPC ponies that are of similar breeding--which is as it should be since they are technically ASPC ponies


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## muffntuf (Jun 7, 2012)

ASPC/AMHR rules state that an AMHA and AMHR show cannot be held on the same day. How we get around that is have an ASPC/AMHR show one or two days, close the show out and the next day open an AMHA show.


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