# How to find a "reputable" breeder



## Reijel's Mom (Jan 6, 2010)

Ok, my sister-in-law called me very excited about a shih-poo puppy they were considering getting. After a few minutes of her talking about the breeder, I suspected this was a miller.

So, my question is, I KNOW these small mixed breed dogs can be a little controversial, but how do you find a reputable breeder for them? Can you? I myself like many of them, but from what I've seen, these dogs are either coming from millers or backyard breeders (to clarify, in this scenario, my definition of byb is someone who has "cute dog A" of 1 breed, "cute dog B" of another breed, who decides to breed them to sell the puppies to make money. These people usually have no idea of the ideal breed standard for either dog, don't do any genetic testing, don't show, etc. These are not folks that I would consider buying a purebred dog from, and I wouldn't relax my standards to buy a purposefully bred mix, either. . .

I know some folks on this forum breed these cute little mixes, I've seen some adorable pictures - so - what do you do to stand out as a reputable breeder?


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## ~Lisa~ (Jan 6, 2010)

I am not a huge fan of designer dogs. however Ravens friends mom had a litter of pups they thought were to be full weenie dogs. THe mom had a heart attack and was in the hosptial for a week- needless to say the week the dog came in heat and husband locked up the wrong male ( DUH lol) so the s-h-i-t-z-u male was with the weenie female the result is our adorable new pup ZOey she is so cute built like a weenie but a fuzzy face like a s-h-i-t-z-u and such soft wavy hair she is the cutest thing ever.

Raven got a great Christmas present 

Not huge help in finding a breeder but sometimes they are a result a oops not sure if that makes it better or worse. I personally would never buy a dog without visiting it- seeing the parents and more important how the dogs are raised how much interaction they get that type of thing which would help in the puppy mill fact finding.


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 6, 2010)

Aww, Lisa - we need pics




. Thanks for responding!


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## wildoak (Jan 6, 2010)

My daughter got carried away last year and bought a puppy online from a mill......she knows better now.





Littlepuppiesonline.com shipped her a supposedly purebred papillon (they have the "designer" mix breeds too). When she picked him up at the airport he weighed less than a pound, was full of worms and covered in diarrhea. Long story short, he nearly died several times, she finally brought him home and with the help of a vet friend we nursed him back. He's a darling dog now, full of personality, but probably not what she paid for and should definitely not have been shipped in the condition he was in. When we called to express concern about him they said, just send us a vet letter if he dies and we'll send you another puppy. Like it was a damaged piece of merchandise.



They put testimonials on their webpage, my daughter's and one other I know were done without the buyers knowledge. Oh, and the registration papers he came with were from the ACA...ever heard of the American Canine Association? Me neither lol.

Doesn't answer your question about who TO buy from, but it's a heads up about who to be careful of.

Jan


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## KanoasDestiny (Jan 6, 2010)

I know that this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but I believe that if a puppy is already here, it deserves a loving home whether it came from a back yard breeder, or someone who continually and unnecessarily keeps breeding their purebred AKC dogs. There's too many dogs period! My best friend raised yorkies and boxers for several years. She does everything right - registers them, vet care, best foods - but what gets me is that for every litter she brought into this world, a dog that was already here, was deprived of a home. And yes, she did it for the money and because she "loves to raise the puppies". Sounds pretty selfish to me.

We recently had the humane society go door to door looking for unregistered dogs because they make a killing off of unaltered animals when they force you to license them ($95 a year per dog). I believe they should do more checks everywhere, then maybe people wouldn't be so out to have unaltered dogs that they breed for selfish reasons or because they just don't care what the dog does. All three of my dogs are mixed, were found roaming and probably came from irresponsible homes. Two I have gotten neutered and the third will hopefully be done on the 19th.

I hope that your sister in law will find the puppy of her dreams, regardless of where she finds him.


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## lilmiraclesfarm (Jan 6, 2010)

Yah.. I've very highly against this. I don't consider anyone who breeds mix breds purposely to be considered a breeder. But that being said. I think the best way to find a mix puppy is from those accidental breedings. Local papers, craigslists, shelters, etc.. But if its something that she wants to get from a "breeder" your going to want to purchase from those who breed only 1 type and health test. Have gurantee's against the puppies.


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 7, 2010)

KanoasDestiny said:


> I know that this isn't going to be a popular opinion, but I believe that if a puppy is already here, it deserves a loving home whether it came from a back yard breeder, or someone who continually and unnecessarily keeps breeding their purebred AKC dogs. There's too many dogs period! My best friend raised yorkies and boxers for several years. She does everything right - registers them, vet care, best foods - but what gets me is that for every litter she brought into this world, a dog that was already here, was deprived of a home. And yes, she did it for the money and because she "loves to raise the puppies". Sounds pretty selfish to me.
> We recently had the humane society go door to door looking for unregistered dogs because they make a killing off of unaltered animals when they force you to license them ($95 a year per dog). I believe they should do more checks everywhere, then maybe people wouldn't be so out to have unaltered dogs that they breed for selfish reasons or because they just don't care what the dog does. All three of my dogs are mixed, were found roaming and probably came from irresponsible homes. Two I have gotten neutered and the third will hopefully be done on the 19th.
> 
> I hope that your sister in law will find the puppy of her dreams, regardless of where she finds him.



It's not that I think those puppies/dogs don't deserve homes that keeps me from buying from those types of folks, it's that every time they sucessfully sell a dog they are reinforced that it's a good idea to make more of them and to stay in that business. I've fostered 2 corgi mill dogs. . . those poor dogs. The health/emotional problems they had. . . it was horrific. If no one would buy their puppies those mills could not stay in business and keep doing this to more and more dogs.


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 7, 2010)

wildoak said:


> My daughter got carried away last year and bought a puppy online from a mill......she knows better now.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My sister in law was also very excited about a breeder she found online. . . several different breeds/mixes of breeds and puppies available all the time, next day shipping available. Glad your daughter's little boy made it. ACA huh



.


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## Filipowicz Farm (Jan 7, 2010)

I have a friend in Canada who breeds Dashounds and Jack Russells and a few designer dogs of this breed. Her dogs are very good quality vet check given shots , given a good dog food and for breakfast mixes cook eggs in there food. When purchased she gives the food she gives them aleash collar toy and all medical records


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## Sue_C. (Jan 7, 2010)

I came across an ad not long ago where this "breeder" (sigh) was advertising "A RARE breed in Nova Scotia", her e-mail addy even made reference to a "Unique breed". What was this amazing, supposidly "rare breed"? A Maltese cross...that's it folks...something so rare huh? She was asking ONLY $700. for these RARE puppies. After my e-mail, she took her advert down...and a day later had them for sale for what they were...a mixed-breed puppy, with a few hundred taken off the price as well.

I don't think it wrong to breed half-breed dogs, if you are doing it right. Take into consideration the breeds you are "mixing", have proper health checks done on the parents, and have them needled, dewormed, vetted on schedules...etc... I know several registered breeders who do not put the care and forethought into their breeding programs that some unregistered breeders do.

It is the buyer's responsibility to KNOW where their puppy is coming from. I would never consider paying for a puppy unless I have seen the parents, and gotten references from former buyers. And yes, I agree, there are a lot of dogs "out there" needing homes...one of our dogs is such a one. He came from a rescue shelter, the big galoot...



but my other dog is a "purebred", although unregistered Min Pin. She is of the breed I chose after careful consideration of exactly what I want and expect in a small companion dog. I had narrowed my choices down to three breeds, and her's is the one that had everthing I was looking for...and more. I don't think that with a mixed breed, or total mutt...you can do that...so there is always, in my opinion, a place for the purebred dog...registered or not...when working within a breed, you should have an idea of what you are going home with...and who your companion will be for the next 10-15 years.


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## uwharrie (Jan 7, 2010)

Sorry there is no such thing as a reputable breeder who breeds mixes. If they are breeding mixes they are doing it purely for the money.

Reputable breeders health test, have proven show/performance/ working records on thier dogs. They screen buyers carefully to make the sure the breed is right for the home. They agree to take dogs back at any time in thier life.

They make sure the dogs they breed adhere to the written standard for the breed and have good temperaments.

Reputable breeders do not make money off thier dogs as it cost money (lots of money) to do it right. Reputable breeders do not have a ready supply of puppies. They only breed a couple of litters a year at most. And while they may have two or three breeds they DO NOT have many breeds to chose from.

Yes reputable breeders do occasionally have oops litters even possibly a mix ( though it should be pretty darn rare).

If you want a mix, go to the local shelter. If you want a purebred rescue find a breed specific rescue. If you want to buy a puppy PLEASE do your research.


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## txminipinto (Jan 7, 2010)

AMEN uwharrie!!! Exactly what I was thinking. And that opinion goes for all breeds and species.


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## ~Lisa~ (Jan 7, 2010)

Ok here is a picture of Zoey






We just love her although I have to be honest I do not know much about either breed - she is happy and healthy and a talker (which may be common in one of those breeds or could just be her) and if I have chi's and think she is a talker that should tell you how much she talks lol

She is not very easy to housebreak much harder then our other dogs. Not a dog I would have gone out and looked for but she sort of fell in our laps and hard to resist a cute furry little face like that


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## Vertical Limit (Jan 7, 2010)

Oh Lisa! That baby is just too cute!



She is lucky to have a home with you guys.


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## mad for mini's (Jan 7, 2010)

The only source I would truly trust would be your local veterinary offices. They will know of people breeding and which are responsible breeders.


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## Sue_C. (Jan 7, 2010)

> Sorry there is no such thing as a reputable breeder who breeds mixes. If they are breeding mixes they are doing it purely for the money. Reputable breeders health test, have proven show/performance/ working records on thier dogs. They screen buyers carefully to make the sure the breed is right for the home. They agree to take dogs back at any time in thier life.
> 
> They make sure the dogs they breed adhere to the written standard for the breed and have good temperaments.
> 
> Reputable breeders do not make money off thier dogs as it cost money (lots of money) to do it right. Reputable breeders do not have a ready supply of puppies. They only breed a couple of litters a year at most. And while they may have two or three breeds they DO NOT have many breeds to chose from.


I do know of a couple of people who do breed crosses, and have taken the utmost care to pick the very best parents for their pups. The parents are vet-checked for inheritable problems, same as if they were to be bred to another registered dog, and are not passing on any ill-health or genetic problems. Unlike many "reputable" pure-bred breeders such as those passing on poor hips, eyes, and/or poor dispositions. Have you taken a long hard look at MANY of the registered German Shepherds, and Dalmations out there lately, just for example...many of which can have multitudes of ribbons and championships behind them?

The breeders I know, although breeding crosses, (one litter a year...unlike a registered breeder I know of who breeds her dogs twice a year) also screens buyers, sells only on a spay/neuter contract, with a clause stating the puppy/dog, is to be returned to them at any time of their life...for any reason. to me...that IS a reputable breeding practice.

And to state that "reputable breeders" don't breed for money...hey, come on...they certainly aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, or they would simply offer their pups for free to "good homes".

Strange that I should stick up for these guys...as I have no interest in the crosses myself. But this idea that only breeders who show, or register their pups can care about them...that is just silly...and makes me think of the term "back yard breeder, and all the nastiness that conotates...when many small "back yard breeders" of miniature horses around here, take MUCH more loving care of their horses and foals, than some of the "big guys" do.


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## uwharrie (Jan 7, 2010)

While it is true there are breeders out there breeding purebred dogs for money I can assure you reputable breeders are not in it for the money. Last year I spent well over $8000 on food, vet care, testing, and showing my dogs. I sold exactly 6 pups for a grand total of $3000, so tell me how I am making money? The year before I spent close to $10,000 (we had our first broken leg in 15 yrs and we spent $3000 to make sure it was fixed properly) that year I did not sell a single pup as I did not have a litter. Oh and BTW I often do give away pups at no charge, usually to other fanciers whom I know will do right by the dogs and my lines. I only breed a litter when I want something of my own to show or continue my line

The key here is "REPUTABLE"

Sorry but unless someone is developing a new breed I see absolutely no reason to purposely produce cross bred dogs.



Sue_C. said:


> I do know of a couple of people who do breed crosses, and have taken the utmost care to pick the very best parents for their pups. The parents are vet-checked for inheritable problems, same as if they were to be bred to another registered dog, and are not passing on any ill-health or genetic problems. Unlike many "reputable" pure-bred breeders such as those passing on poor hips, eyes, and/or poor dispositions. Have you taken a long hard look at MANY of the registered German Shepherds, and Dalmations out there lately, just for example...many of which can have multitudes of ribbons and championships behind them?
> The breeders I know, although breeding crosses, (one litter a year...unlike a registered breeder I know of who breeds her dogs twice a year) also screens buyers, sells only on a spay/neuter contract, with a clause stating the puppy/dog, is to be returned to them at any time of their life...for any reason. to me...that IS a reputable breeding practice.
> 
> And to state that "reputable breeders" don't breed for money...hey, come on...they certainly aren't doing it out of the goodness of their hearts, or they would simply offer their pups for free to "good homes".
> ...


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## KanoasDestiny (Jan 7, 2010)

uwharrie said:


> While it is true there are breeders out there breeding purebred dogs for money I can assure you reputable breeders are not in it for the money. Last year I spent well over $8000 on food, vet care, testing, and showing my dogs. I sold exactly 6 pups for a grand total of $3000, so tell me how I am making money? The year before I spent close to $10,000 (we had our first broken leg in 15 yrs and we spent $3000 to make sure it was fixed properly) that year I did not sell a single pup as I did not have a litter. Oh and BTW I often do give away pups at no charge, usually to other fanciers whom I know will do right by the dogs and my lines. I only breed a litter when I want something of my own to show or continue my lineThe key here is "REPUTABLE"
> 
> Sorry but unless someone is developing a new breed I see absolutely no reason to purposely produce cross bred dogs.


Not really directing this at you uwharrie, just breeders in general - I believe the phrase for horses is also true for dogs...there is NO dog (no matter how pure or correct) that is too good to neuter/spay, so the majority aren't really adding anything dyer to the breed. I'm guessing that almost every person can agree that there are WAY too many dogs in the world already, but like so many breeders claim, iif you aren't making money off of selling your puppies, why would you even breed and add more dogs to the overpopulation? I'm sure that there are people already producing purebred dogs of your given choice, that are equal, or greater, then the ones you produce, so bettering the breed isn't exactly a reason. I can never quite understand that about people who claim that they are "doing the right thing", yet someone else isn't.


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 7, 2010)

Edited to delete quotes from others with no comments about the quotes (woops due to infant in arms).


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## MiniaturePrincess429 (Jan 7, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> > Sorry there is no such thing as a reputable breeder who breeds mixes. If they are breeding mixes they are doing it purely for the money. Reputable breeders health test, have proven show/performance/ working records on thier dogs. They screen buyers carefully to make the sure the breed is right for the home. They agree to take dogs back at any time in thier life.
> >
> > They make sure the dogs they breed adhere to the written standard for the breed and have good temperaments.
> >
> ...



some of these "cross bred breeders" are breeding for a more sound dog. Its actually scientifically proven that "mutts" live longer, and a lot of these dogs are hyop-allergenic andhealthier. I actually own one such dog who was bought for the specific fact that he does not shed. I have two dogs, one purebred golden retriever and the other dog in question my designer dogs,(a bichonpoo) who is my mothers was bought because she cannot stand the shedding from the golden and is slightly allergic to him. I know several people who have poodle crosses for the fact that they have hair not fur and are hypoallergenic. No matter what the breed there are always going to be "puppy mills" but most of the cross bred dogs are actually offspring of excellent examples of their respective breeds. And on the note for breeding a more sound dog, take the puggle for example, a cross between a beagle and a pug, which lets the resulting dog have less breathing problems.

This is just my two sense. and here's a picture of my "designer dog"


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## lilmiraclesfarm (Jan 7, 2010)

I just thought I would bring up the fact that most of these "breeders" are breeding dogs they are buying from pet stores and other get rich breeders. lol So I find it hard to believe that testing these dogs really does any good anyways. I'm sorry but what reputable breeder worth buying a dog from is going to sell someone a dog when they say they are going to be breeding it with other mutts. I can't imagine to many out there would be willing. Alot of breeders as well have in their contract that any limited registration dog found to be bred purposely could result in a hefty fine and court. So from what I can see, the easiest way to obtain a breeding dog without any strings attatched would be those of our fellow pet stores. If you look at the sire and dam of alot of these mixed puppies, you can clearly see how pourly they were bred in the first place.

miniatureprincess you do know that the poodle and the bichon are both hypoallergenic breeds.. So in my mind, why are we breeding two dogs that are the same size that are already hypoallergenic, how are we produceing a "needed" mix?


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## tagalong (Jan 7, 2010)

> Its actually scientifically proven that "mutts" live longer


You are speaking of hybrid vigor... but that does not necessarily apply to any old Bichon being bred to any old Miniature Poodle. No science will prove that the result of that pairing will live a longer or heatlhier life than any old purebred Bichon or Poodle. I knew purebred Borzois that lived to be 16 and died peacefully in their sleep... and the Lab cross owned by the guy who sneered at those dogs made it to 10 and was arthritic and stiff long before that.

I always ask people to show me an actual study that shows that mutts live longer on the whole._ I do not believe such a thing exists as it is mainly dependant on the individual as opposed to the breed._ But you see that "proof" always trotted out by the designer dog breeders to justify an endless stream of puggles and shih-poos of dubious genetics. Schipperkes have lived to be 20... very few dogs of any breed can claim that. Next there will be some Schippoodle cross breeder that claims longevity as their reason for their new "rare" breed.

I am not against mutts by any means and have been owned by many but the justifications/excuses used by pet stores, puppy mills and those churning out the same types of designer dogs are simply not true.



> miniatureprincess you do know that the poodle and the bichon are both hypoallergenic breeds.. So in my mind, why are we breeding two dogs that are the same size that are already hypoallergenic, how are we produceing a "needed" mix?


IMO there is no need beyond selling a "new" "rare" breed to someone... it is just another excuse to justify high-priced crosses...

Puggles were all the rage around here for a couple of years. Why anyone thought a beagle and a pug would be a good cross confuses me - two different breeds with absolutely nothing in common that would not complement each other! But no matter - puggles were "in". And high-priced. And not a real breed - despite the claims of a couple of so-called "breeders" as they did not breed true to type and had a wide variety of body shapes and features. I saw some of the beagles one twit was using - and they were not exactly well put together and representative of Beagledom. They should not have been used for breeding _anything._

Now there are puggles all over Craig's List and in the shelters. The fad seems to be over. Maybe they are cheaper by the dozen...


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 7, 2010)

MiniaturePrincess429 said:


> No matter what the breed there are always going to be "puppy mills" but most of the cross bred dogs are actually offspring of excellent examples of their respective breeds.


Miniature Princess, your dog is a cutie, but I could not disagree with you more about "most" of the cross bred dogs being offspring of excellent examples of their respective breeds. I have not come across ONE breeder here in Iowa that breeds designer dogs that is not a miller or someone who really knows what they are doing as far as judging whether their animals are excellent examples of their respective breeds.

I think there may be a few out there, but I'm not finding them.

Sue - I wish these breeders were closer to me - I'd have a place to send my sister-in-law!

UWharrie - you seem to be exactly what I personally look for in a breeder when I am looking to purchase a dog! My personal "breed of choice" is the corgi and I'm on a yahoo corgi rescue list - there are a lot of great breeders out there with similar ideals, and I simply won't deal with a breeder who isn't also involved in rescue.

Kanoas, myself being someone who is passionate about rescue and the overpopluation problem, I hear what you are saying about breeders contributing to an overpopulation problem, but I gotta say - I think we still need good breeders. I'm a corgi lover as I've stated, and frankly, these dogs are dogs that need to be bred carefully with good genetics in mind - for temperament as well as health problems. If I ever purchase a corgi puppy again my number #1 priority is going to be to find one that has been bred with good temperament in mind. I've dealt with way too many in rescue that have had questionable temperaments, needing to be rehomed because they are not good with children, other animals, etc, and these dogs are not coming from those folks that I consider reputable breeders (maybe because reputable breeders take their animals back so they don't end up in rescue). In my opinion, in the corgi breed, the bad are starting to outweigh the good, because there are just way too many folks that are breeding them that don't know what they are doing



. I love my corgis and I hate to see that happening.

Lisa, your dog is ADORable. Myself, I'd say that's why people want these dogs, and why some people are purposefully breeding for them- they are often undeniably adorable! And there's a market out there for adorable.

But, I digress. Sue - do your friends have a website or anything? I could at least send my sister-in-law the link so she could see what a "good" breeder of these types of dogs should look like.


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## uwharrie (Jan 7, 2010)

Boy does that ever smack of PETA. If they had their way all breeding would stop as would ownership of pets. Yes there are many unwanted pets out there, some purebred but the vast majority are mixes. The big issue is not really overbreeding but responsible pet ownership. If everyone spayed/ nuetered thier pets and every breeder took back ANY dog they produced no matter the age, and we shut down the puppy factories that churn out 100s of dogs we might see a difference.

But hey this is America where anyone can do just about anything they want. Its a want it now and throw it away later society.

You ask why responsible breeders would breed? Because believe it or not we really do care about our respective breeds. If responsible breeders all stopped then at some point a breed would cease to exist. It is not a matter of being better than someone else, it is a matter of doing the work, spending the time, testing both health, temperament and correct type to assure we are producing the best we can. We research pedigrees, study the old books, talk to the old breeders.



KanoasDestiny said:


> Not really directing this at you uwharrie, just breeders in general - I believe the phrase for horses is also true for dogs...there is NO dog (no matter how pure or correct) that is too good to neuter/spay, so the majority aren't really adding anything dyer to the breed. I'm guessing that almost every person can agree that there are WAY too many dogs in the world already, but like so many breeders claim, iif you aren't making money off of selling your puppies, why would you even breed and add more dogs to the overpopulation? I'm sure that there are people already producing purebred dogs of your given choice, that are equal, or greater, then the ones you produce, so bettering the breed isn't exactly a reason. I can never quite understand that about people who claim that they are "doing the right thing", yet someone else isn't.


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## KanoasDestiny (Jan 7, 2010)

uwharrie said:


> Boy does that ever smack of PETA. If they had their way all breeding would stop as would ownership of pets. Yes there are many unwanted pets out there, some purebred but the vast majority are mixes. The big issue is not really overbreeding but responsible pet ownership. If everyone spayed/ nuetered thier pets and every breeder took back ANY dog they produced no matter the age, and we shut down the puppy factories that churn out 100s of dogs we might see a difference.But hey this is America where anyone can do just about anything they want. Its a want it now and throw it away later society.
> 
> You ask why responsible breeders would breed? Because believe it or not we really do care about our respective breeds. If responsible breeders all stopped then at some point a breed would cease to exist. It is not a matter of being better than someone else, it is a matter of doing the work, spending the time, testing both health, temperament and correct type to assure we are producing the best we can. We research pedigrees, study the old books, talk to the old breeders.


I'm sorry, I didn't mean for that to sound like something PETA would say. I have absolutely no affiliation with them or any other animal activists. I'm just tired of people trying to dictate what others are doing, while they themselves are adding to the problem because they are doing it "responsibly". If a puppy mill/back yard breeder has a market regardless of how well they care for the pet, then obviously there's people who do like the animals they produce. Not everyone is into perfection, and I hope for those wormy or sick dogs coming from truly bad situations, that they find loving homes with people who will take better care of them. But for breeding mutts, just because it's not something that people who breed for the best would produce (or how they would do it), doesn't make it wrong. So what if there's a designer dog? There's people out there that are more than willing to buy them, so obviously they like something about that "kind" of animal. The cutest dog I have EVER seen was a mixture between a chow and a pomeranian (I think it was called a chowranian). If they became the next trend, I would so get one because they are so much fluffier and cuter than either of those breeds by themselves.

I understand that if EVERY breeder stopped breeding, then breeds would die out. But if Breeder A has correct dogs, and Breeder B has correct dogs, then why do Breeder C and Breeder D (and so on) have to breed their correct dogs? We're talking about thousands of people who all swear their dogs are correct, breeding one or two litters of 4-10 puppies a year (if they only have one breeding pair). If all "responsible" breeders would just skip a year or two or three of breeding their dogs, then those pure breds would be more scarse, meaning a higher demand, and it would greatly cut the number of the overpopulation. Of course that isn't going to stop those who breed mutts, but it would be a giant step that has to start somewhere. Like I said, I believe that anyone with an unaltered pet should have to pay more to license them but then, the humane society would have to do more checks which may help with the puppy millers. I just see it as a victious cycle...people are too busy placing the blame at others doorsteps than accepting some of the blame also. There's breed specific rescues because it's not only mutts that end up homeless.


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## Sue_C. (Jan 7, 2010)

Sorry, no websites. The couple that breed that I know of, only breed maybe once every couple of years...not steadily..."just backyard" but caring breeders. This is all your sister has to look for. When she talks to someone with puppies for sale, she should ask all the questions that have been mentioned here...

Have her ask if there have been health checks on the parents; what checks they were, and at what age(s) were they checked?

What vet care have the pups received...and who is their vet?

Reference names from past buyers, with phone numbers so you can call and talk to them...ask all about thier pups...problems if any?

Is there a sapy/neuter contract?

Does the breeder have it in a contract that they will take the dog back at any time should it be required?

WHY has this breeder decided to breed for what is basically a mutt?

What kind of fee are they charging? IMHO, a breeder of crosses should not be charging more for a cross, than one would pay for a registered pure-bred dog. That, to me, smells of greed.

If the breeder refuses to answer any questions, or will not welcome you into their home, where you can meet the parents, or insist on meeting on a street corner...selling the pup from the back of a car...tell your sister to run...not just walk...away.


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## uwharrie (Jan 8, 2010)

Well the commercial breeders (mills) will never quit so if every resposnible breeder out there quit there would still be a glut of dogs. Responsible breeders dogs do not add to the pet overpopulation because they take back any pups that are no longer wanted or can be kept. They require all pet puppies to be spayed or nuetered.

And as I said before the VAST MAJORITY of dogs in shelters are mixes, folks don't get thier pets spayed/neutered, allow them to roam, or breed a litter just to witness the "birth" or "have a pup just like snookey" I would say our small dog pound ( it is not even a shelter) euthanises several thousand dogs a year. They taken in maybe a dozen at most purbreds a year. Even if you wipe every purebred breeder off the planet good or bad you will still have hundreds of thousands of dogs in shelters (and wont even get into the cat problem)

. All breeders are not created equal, all dogs are not of equal quality, just because a dog has papers does not make it a good resprentative of the breed.How do good breeders know thier dogs are good examples of the breed? they show them. With the AKC they have at least 3 (usually many more) judges concure that the dog is a good representative of the breed. (by earning a championship) And no it is not all politics.

Anyway this is my last post on the subject.



KanoasDestiny said:


> I understand that if EVERY breeder stopped breeding, then breeds would die out. But if Breeder A has correct dogs, and Breeder B has correct dogs, then why do Breeder C and Breeder D (and so on) have to breed their correct dogs? We're talking about thousands of people who all swear their dogs are correct, breeding one or two litters of 4-10 puppies a year (if they only have one breeding pair). If all "responsible" breeders would just skip a year or two or three of breeding their dogs, then those pure breds would be more scarse, meaning a higher demand, and it would greatly cut the number of the overpopulation. Of course that isn't going to stop those who breed mutts, but it would be a giant step that has to start somewhere. Like I said, I believe that anyone with an unaltered pet should have to pay more to license them but then, the humane society would have to do more checks which may help with the puppy millers. I just see it as a victious cycle...people are too busy placing the blame at others doorsteps than accepting some of the blame also. There's breed specific rescues because it's not only mutts that end up homeless.


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## shorthorsemom (Jan 9, 2010)

Guess I will chime in on this one... Designer dogs for high dollar prices just ticks me off. I once met a woman that bought a "Goldadoodle" for $2000. My mother was quoted $600 for a "yorkie poo". I cannot understand these prices for mixed breed dogs when there are millions of "designer dogs" in shelters everywhere. Millions of purebred dogs there too... but the biggest thing I object to is how much these people are charging for their mixed dogs and then fooling the public into believing that these dogs will live longer and be healthier. These puppies can inherit problems from each of their pure bred parents as easily as they can if both of their parents were the same pure breed. I remember when a puppy from accidental breedings used to be free. Free to good home, remember those words?.. Just google petfinder.com for some cool designer dogs, they are everywhere.

IMO the designer dog breeding is a racket pure and simple.

On spay and neuter topic, I neuter all my dogs whether they come from shelter, show up abandoned on my porch or I buy from a reputable breeder and pay top dollar. Even if I paid high dollar for a pure bred top notch show quality dog with impeccable blood lines, I would neuter this dog. I am not a breeder and think it is my responsibility to neuter since I am not. Just because the dog is breed quality does not mean it has to be bred. If I had a nickle for everyone that thought because they paid a lot of money for their dog and then thought they had to " get a litter of puppies" out of the dog because of that... sigh. Responsible pet ownership and responsible breeding. Ditto on the comment that good breeders can be found, they take back unwanted puppies, have contracts prior to even breeding and take responsibility for every puppy that they breed for the life of that dog. They study their dogs, breed for temperament and make a pledge to do it right and stand by what they do. These are the breeders that I respect. Love and respect the people that do the rescue, pure bred and mixed alike, that is a labor of love for sure.


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## Minimor (Jan 9, 2010)

I actually get tired of the "if you want a dog go to a rescue and get one" rant. Going through our local rescue's list of dogs, there are very few that interest me at all. A few that might be the right breeding and could work for what I want turn out to be inappropriate for us because of their past history--some are at the rescue because of some bahavior problem, some don't get along with cats and are now old enough that they are going to be hard to get used to cats and be 100% trustworthy with them....for someone wanting just a pet, yes, a rescue may work, but when you want a very specific dog for a specific job or specific range of duties, a rescue isn't necessarily the best option.

Registered dogs aren't even the best option in many instances. Registered does still mean higher priced around here...was just looking through some ads the other day and it seems that GSDs sell for around $400 here. The registered ones are $800 and up. Pug crosses are $300 (average) and registered purebreds more like $675, non-registered but full breed ones are $500. Perhaps the registered dogs, of whatever breed, are off of show stock, but that doesn't ensure they are better dogs for what I want. With GSDs for instance, some of the show dogs have such useless (IMO) rear ends, it doesn't matter how many titles they've won or that they come with a vet certificate and a hip guarantee, that isn't the rear end I want. The dog could still be useless for my purposes. So yeah, if I find a 'breeder' who has dogs that are doing what I want a dog to do, and they have pups for sale, I will buy from them.

I suspect that even if all your despised breeders of designer stopped breeding so that there were fewer dogs, a great many dogs would still remain in the rescues--because a good lot of people that are buying those mixed breed dogs would just not bother going to the rescues. I know I wouldn't--I would wait until I found what I wanted from an individual.


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## ~Lisa~ (Jan 9, 2010)

Minimor said:


> I actually get tired of the "if you want a dog go to a rescue and get one" rant.


I have to say it is a catch 22.. how many horse owners go rescue one rather then buy one? Very few cause they say it does not meet there needs even though a small percentage of horse owners actually show breed shows..





Yet on the other hand IMO every breeder of any animal be it 1 or 100 is contributing to the overpopulation. It is easy to point the finger at someone else and claim they do not breed the quality you do- perhaps that is true but reality is reality and when you breed a horse to be bred or sell a horse to be bred you are contributing. I have contributed myself and I have used the same defense myself and there may be some truth in the difference in quality and there may not be. I have seen many a grade horse that can out jump- out move a registered horse on any day.

There is no easy answer the majority who breed any animal do it for the love even if that love makes them a bit blind. (we have all been a bit blinded a time or two in our lives I am sure)

But if it was all for love then everything would be given away. Yes some are more responsbile then others that is just life.

I have no judgement on the type of dog if someone wants to pay for a mixed breed or mutt and pay good money that is their choice no different then someone paying big money for what I might consider a icky horse. I would not personally pay big bucks for any dog but that is just me I spend a huge part of my life iwth my dogs more then I do with my kids or anyone else so for me I have other priorities. Others may not and that is ok.

Any animal will be overbred and used for money it happens all the time. Doesnt make it right- doesnt make it responsbile but really judging someone for spending 600 bucks on a mixed breed they love or spending it on a purebred they love is not going to change the issue.





I do not think anyone knows an answer?


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 9, 2010)

Minimor said:


> I actually get tired of the "if you want a dog go to a rescue and get one" rant. Going through our local rescue's list of dogs, there are very few that interest me at all. A few that might be the right breeding and could work for what I want turn out to be inappropriate for us because of their past history--some are at the rescue because of some bahavior problem, some don't get along with cats and are now old enough that they are going to be hard to get used to cats and be 100% trustworthy with them....for someone wanting just a pet, yes, a rescue may work, but when you want a very specific dog for a specific job or specific range of duties, a rescue isn't necessarily the best option.
> Registered dogs aren't even the best option in many instances. Registered does still mean higher priced around here...was just looking through some ads the other day and it seems that GSDs sell for around $400 here. The registered ones are $800 and up. Pug crosses are $300 (average) and registered purebreds more like $675, non-registered but full breed ones are $500. Perhaps the registered dogs, of whatever breed, are off of show stock, but that doesn't ensure they are better dogs for what I want. With GSDs for instance, some of the show dogs have such useless (IMO) rear ends, it doesn't matter how many titles they've won or that they come with a vet certificate and a hip guarantee, that isn't the rear end I want. The dog could still be useless for my purposes. So yeah, if I find a 'breeder' who has dogs that are doing what I want a dog to do, and they have pups for sale, I will buy from them.
> 
> I suspect that even if all your despised breeders of designer stopped breeding so that there were fewer dogs, a great many dogs would still remain in the rescues--because a good lot of people that are buying those mixed breed dogs would just not bother going to the rescues. I know I wouldn't--I would wait until I found what I wanted from an individual.


I may well have missed something, but I didn't see anyone saying that you should only get a dog from a rescue, not in this topic, anyway. I'm all for rescue, but I'm also all for reputable breeders, which is the direction I was trying to point my sister-in-law in, but using my own criteria for a good breeder, I was not able to find any for the type of dogs she is interested in, not anywhere in the midwest US anyway.

Instead (because she did ask for advice) I've now just put together a list of how I go about finding a reputable breeder/my criteria, e-mailed it to her, and have left it at that.

Thanks, everyone, for all your responses!


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## mininik (Jan 9, 2010)

Minimor said:


> Perhaps the registered dogs, of whatever breed, are off of show stock, but that doesn't ensure they are better dogs for what I want. With GSDs for instance, some of the show dogs have such useless (IMO) rear ends, it doesn't matter how many titles they've won or that they come with a vet certificate and a hip guarantee, that isn't the rear end I want. The dog could still be useless for my purposes. So yeah, if I find a 'breeder' who has dogs that are doing what I want a dog to do, and they have pups for sale, I will buy from them.
> I suspect that even if all your despised breeders of designer stopped breeding so that there were fewer dogs, a great many dogs would still remain in the rescues--because a good lot of people that are buying those mixed breed dogs would just not bother going to the rescues. I know I wouldn't--I would wait until I found what I wanted from an individual.



Here's a thought... If you don't like the hind ends on conformation GSDs from reputable breeders, find a reputable working GSD breeder. If the dogs are working stock you'll know there's a good chance your puppy will grow up to be the same (with proper training), plus you'll know the pup is from tested stock and comes with a health guarantee. If you just buy any pup from any individual because their dogs have the hind end you are looking for and their stock may be doing the job you want your pup to do, that won't do you much good if the pup ends up with hip and/or elbow dysplasia, etc. due to no health testing. Just because the pup's sire and dam are "healthy" looking youngsters doesn't mean much. No health guarantee means you'll be paying all the vet bills on a dog that's as "useless" to you as a show dog would have been. You usually get what you pay for and saving a few hundred bucks on a pet puppy from untested parents likely won't save you much at all in the long run.


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## Minimor (Jan 9, 2010)

I don't actually agree that you get what you pay for. Sometimes yes, sometimes no--sometimes all you get is a very expensive dud.



Considering that the absolute best guard dog we ever had was a free shepherd cross and the most perfect overall dog we've ever had (or ever will have) was a mixed breed that cost us nothing more than the price of spaying her...and considering that the cheapest working bred GSD of German lines I've found in this province is $1200 (which I won't be paying) without any guarantees at all (and not an especially "reputable" breeder either, according to some)--and some of his dogs tend to have higher drive than what we need or want in a dog--no thank you. I am happy to pay $400 for a dog I like and have it come with its first set of shots--for that price I expect a healthy dog but do not expect any guarantees.

On a similar note--I don't believe in paying extra for extended warranty on any of my appliances either, nor do I do prepurchase exams when I buy horses. <shrugs> It has always worked for me.


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## shorthorsemom (Jan 10, 2010)

Minimor said:


> I don't actually agree that you get what you pay for. Sometimes yes, sometimes no--sometimes all you get is a very expensive dud.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You got that right Minimor. One of the best dogs I ever owned or did obedience with was a GSH that showed up abandoned on our farm one day. He was the dog of dogs and I will miss him forever... The only dud dog I ever owned in 30 years was a high dollar $2000 dobie that I purchased, the only dobe out of 7 I owned in my life that I bought instead of rescued. Lucky for me the breeder took him back, but my $2000 was not able to be refunded, but after living with that dog for 8 months I would have paid her to take him back. I loved the breeder, she admitted to a dud litter, she had three out of my boys litter that were returned and she neutered my boy's father based on the results of that one breeding even though his father was awesome show stock. Sometimes things just happen, my boy had serious behavior and mental issues and I have three kids, not a good combination. He was a stunning puppy and until his second round of puppy vaccinations, had no issues whatsoever. After his second round of vaccinations he started having issues. Last I heard he was still living at the breeders, his forever home, she has and extensive set up and no little kids. Money and good breeding don't always guarantee a great and healthy dog and obedience and socialization don't always guarantee things will turn out ok either, I worked hard on that puppy. My newest dog is a tibetan spaniel I rescued recently and she has an unbelievable personality. I wasn't looking for a dog and she fell into our laps and is staying. I think for the future I will more closely watch for those dogs that kind of fall into your life rather than go dog shopping, all of my dogs that came to us in an unusual way were the best of the best. go figure.


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## Sue_C. (Jan 10, 2010)

> Lucky for me the breeder took him back, but my $2000 was not able to be refunded, but after living with that dog for 8 months I would have paid her to take him back. I loved the breeder, she admitted to a dud litter, she had three out of my boys litter that were returned and she neutered my boy's father based on the results of that one breeding


I am not so sure I would be so forgiving as to "love the breeder" who took my $2000, and wouldn't refund it...even after admitting to having had a "did litter", and taking your dog back. As far as taking the dog back because of inheritable disposition or comformation problems...that is only to be EXPECTED of a reputable breeder...to not refund or replace the puppy...that is NOT good business practice whatsoever.


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## MiniaturePrincess429 (Jan 11, 2010)

Minimor said:


> I don't actually agree that you get what you pay for. Sometimes yes, sometimes no--sometimes all you get is a very expensive dud.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I most certainly agree with this, my boyfriends family has only had English Bulldogs for over 15 years, and about 2 years ago they got a female puppy, and at frist his mother thought she wanted to breed Buttons, she came from a great line, and the vet even said she was very "correct" in her conformation and such but they decieded agaisnt it beause his mother would be beside her self if anything happened to Buttons (being that when Bulldogs give birth it must be via cesarian section due to the face that they have such large heads



) and so she was spayed, but they payed over $3,000 for her, not to mention they had to fly to Tennessee to get her and bring her home and so far, besides being spayed she has had two surgeries for Cherry eye, and she gets rashes or stuff like that all the time. Now they could have brought her back to the breeders but they chose not to due to the fact that she is an absolute sweet heart, and they love her to death, and they are in a financial position to afford the vet stuff that she needs. And then there's the flip side where my dog Bryer the Golden cost us 350 bucks, we bought him from a backyard breeder who's female had two litters in her life, and the lady ended up becoming my aunt, lol, he is durable, my dog, never had a sick day in his life, eats whatever you give him with no problems, he's ten and barely shows his age except for his white hair on his face, and occasional stiffness in the winter, but he will still run around like there's no tomorrow.

Here is Buttons






and here is Bryer <3






(he likes to sleep in Duke's bed, idk why but he does)


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