# The United States Debt Limit Explained



## Jill (Jul 28, 2011)

It's pretty hard to fault or to not be able to follow the explanation provided in this really well done video!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=no21PgET3Co&feature=player_embedded


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## Katiean (Jul 28, 2011)

Good video Jill. Now so something will pass, I think Boehner and Reid need to take both of their plans and sit down together with no one else to toss in their two cents ( this means even Berry is excluded) and find a common ground with both of the proposals. Then the two of them could draft a bill that would pass. It isn't rocket science. Good thing too since they shut down the space program.


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## andi (Jul 28, 2011)

I love the explanation of the debt limit, very informative and easy to follow.

The solution on the other hand isn't quite rational. Replacing the guy in charge has made no difference. The same problem keeps happening no matter who is in charge sense 1917. We all need to take *personal responsibility* for insisting on adding the pool and getting the job for our friend, those are the actions that caused the problem, and we can't blame the person in charge for giving us what we asked for. The idea that replacing the person in charge is going to make everyone happy to give up their unnecessary Jobs and sell their pool table that they payed for with their home owners fee's isn't realistic. This shifting the blame to the person in charge is everyone's way of not feeling guilty for there own poor decisions.

This video is a wonderful example of the sneaky way politics are played. I don't think that it is a coincidence that we have a very non threatening cartoon video, that is very well thought out and informative that explains a lot of information, relatively in-depth. But then in the last few moments throws in, vote out the president and magically the sun will start shining and all of our problems will disappear. I am thinking Tom made this video, and don't see it as a good sign that he will be any different than Steve if he is already spending his time and money makeing manipulative videos to trick voters into getting him in a position of power. LOL


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## Jill (Jul 28, 2011)

Happy you enjoyed the video






At the risk of being accused of having an opinion, I will say that the biggest reasons I identify with the Right / Conservative / Republican side of the fence is how I feel about *personal responsibility* and *National defense*


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## andi (Jul 28, 2011)

Of course you have every right to your opinions, I have never questioned that. Just because I voice a different one isnt me telling you that you cant have yours. If you notice my opinion says nothing about republican or demorcrats. It does not group or stereotype anyone. When you say that your opinions on personal responsibilty and national defense make you a republican you imply that liberals are lazy and prefer handouts and don't care if we get killed by terrorists. If we could all talk about these issues independant of what party you are connected to we could get so much farther. If you really think about it, in the video you can see it was both sides getting them into this mess. "Liberals" want a pool, screw personal responsibilty, and the "Conservative" want more guard shacks put up, protect our borders. Both sides need to take responsibility for the mess and the solution and quite blameing it on the other side, or more easily the one single person they all elected to be the scapegoat, cause at the end of the day, thats what the posisiton has become, poor Steve.


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## Jill (Jul 28, 2011)

andi said:


> Of course you have every right to your opinions, I have never questioned that. Just because I voice a different one isnt me telling you that you cant have yours.


Oh, I know. I was actually making fun of myself because I do realize I am extremely opinionated. Go figure, though, that it doesn't bother me







andi said:


> When you say that your opinions on personal responsibilty and national defense make you a republican you imply that liberals are lazy and prefer handouts and don't care if we get killed by terrorists. ... "Liberals" want a pool, screw personal responsibilty...


Liberals do not have the same set of priorities that I most value when it comes to those items I mentioned (personal responsibility & National defense). If they did, they'd be conservatives. And, yes, I do think most liberals tend to be kind of lazy, love government handouts, and while they don't want to be killed by terrorists, they also kinda don't want to hurt their feelings.



andi said:


> "Conservative" want more guard shacks put up, protect our borders.


YES, please.


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## andi (Jul 28, 2011)

Wow, I just don't really know what to say. Liberals are lazy and are afraid of offending terrorists. The fact that you can write those words, a well educate person who has all the oportunities to be informed, really concerns me. You do understand Jill, people, not just liberals, are concerned about offending INNOCENT, honest, law abiding muslims who are being lumped into the same catagory as terrorists by bigots. Not for one moment are people afraid of offending actuall terrorists. Following the attacks we DID need to be concerned about the backlash against an innocent minority, that was a real issue that we should all be able to admit. We should not be afraid to have empathy towards another human being, and we shouldnt be targeted and considered faulted for feeling that way. The idea that supporting goverment funded financial aid means your lazy. What a simple uninformed assumption. I am understanding why "adults" can't seem to get this goverment thing right. A bunch of overgrown, know it all teenagers . . . it seems all the simple rules of respect for one another and fair civil debate are just something you need to pass some ethics tests in high school.


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## HGFarm (Jul 29, 2011)

Well, I liked that so much I stuck it on my FB. Makes a pretty clear picture to all, except those that would rather still sit with their heads stuck in the sand and pretend that all is well.

Dont worry about having opinions Jill, I do too. Apathy never got anybody anywhere as far as I recollect.


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## HGFarm (Jul 29, 2011)

Ok, I can't help myself- Here are many of the proposed cuts being discussed.... I am not surprized by some of the 'swimming pools', 'pool tables' and other things here. Sugar Program? Ready To Learn TV Program? Economic Assistance to Egypt? (250 MILLION a YEAR?) Eliminate Mohair Subsidies? Huh?

What the... ??!!

Corporation for Public Broadcasting Subsidy. $445 million annual savings.

Save America's Treasures Program. $25 million annual savings.

International Fund for Ireland. $17 million annual savings.

Legal Services Corporation. $420 million annual savings.

National Endowment for the Arts. $167.5 million annual savings.

National Endowment for the Humanities. $167.5 million annual savings.

Hope VI Program. $250 million annual savings.

Amtrak Subsidies. $1.565 billion annual savings.

Eliminate duplicative education programs. H.R. 2274 (in last Congress), authored by Rep. McKeon, eliminates 68 at a savings of $1.3 billion annually.

U.S. Trade Development Agency. $55 million annual savings.

Woodrow Wilson Center Subsidy. $20 million annual savings.

Cut in half funding for congressional printing and binding. $47 million annual savings.

John C. Stennis Center Subsidy. $430,000 annual savings.

Community Development Fund. $4.5 billion annual savings.

Heritage Area Grants and Statutory Aid. $24 million annual savings.

Cut Federal Travel Budget in Half. $7.5 billion annual savings.

Trim Federal Vehicle Budget by 20%. $600 million annual savings.

Essential Air Service. $150 million annual savings.

Technology Innovation Program. $70 million annual savings.

Manufacturing Extension Partnership (MEP) Program. $125 million annual savings.

Department of Energy Grants to States for Weatherization. $530 million annual savings.

Beach Replenishment. $95 million annual savings.

New Starts Transit. $2 billion annual savings.

Exchange Programs for Alaska, Natives Native Hawaiians, and Their Historical Trading Partners in Massachusetts. $9 million annual savings.

Intercity and High Speed Rail Grants. $2.5 billion annual savings.

Title X Family Planning. $318 million annual savings.

Appalachian Regional Commission. $76 million annual savings.

Economic Development Administration. $293 million annual savings.

Programs under the National and Community Services Act. $1.15 billion annual savings.

Applied Research at Department of Energy. $1.27 billion annual savings.

FreedomCAR and Fuel Partnership. $200 million annual savings.

Energy Star Program. $52 million annual savings.

Economic Assistance to Egypt. $250 million annually.

U.S. Agency for International Development. $1.39 billion annual savings.

General Assistance to District of Columbia. $210 million annual savings.

Subsidy for Washington Metropolitan Area Transit Authority. $150 million annual savings.

Presidential Campaign Fund. $775 million savings over ten years.

No funding for federal office space acquisition. $864 million annual savings.

End prohibitions on competitive sourcing of government services.

Repeal the Davis-Bacon Act. More than $1 billion annually.

IRS Direct Deposit: Require the IRS to deposit fees for some services it offers (such as processing payment plans for taxpayers) to the Treasury, instead of allowing it to remain as part of its budget. $1.8 billion savings over ten years.

Require collection of unpaid taxes by federal employees. $1 billion total savings.

Prohibit taxpayer funded union activities by federal employees. $1.2 billion savings over ten years.

Sell excess federal properties the government does not make use of. $15 billion total savings.

Eliminate death gratuity for Members of Congress.

Eliminate Mohair Subsidies. $1 million annual savings.

Eliminate taxpayer subsidies to the United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change. $12.5 million annual savings.

Eliminate Market Access Program. $200 million annual savings.

USDA Sugar Program. $14 million annual savings.

Subsidy to Organisation for Economic Co-operation and Development (OECD). $93 million annual savings.

Eliminate the National Organic Certification Cost-Share Program. $56.2 million annual savings.

Eliminate fund for Obamacare administrative costs. $900 million savings.

Ready to Learn TV Program. $27 million savings.

HUD Ph.D. Program.

Deficit Reduction Check-Off Act.

*TOTAL SAVINGS: $2.5 Trillion over Ten Years*


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

Great post, Laurie!!! I'm going to be sharing it along!!!






James, we just have two very different points of view. I probably saw things more like you do when I was your age but now and for many years, I feel honestly just as I said and I don't like to sugar coat these things... I am right wing to the bone on all important issues except for one (I support equal marriage rights for all committed couples). Obviously, do not let my opinion, Dennis Miller, Ann Coulter, Michelle Malkin, Glenn Beck, or millions and millions of bumper stickers, signs, teeshirts and coffee mugs shatter your affection for the liberal ideal


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

I just can't beleive that this retoric is considered a logical conversation back and forth. How abought explaining your opinions. Dont just say they are mine so thats it. Explain why. WHY should we not have empathy for others. Well actually that one was answered, "it never got anybody anywhere". I guess Gandi and Mother Teresa must have been liberals. The whole point of morals and values is you do the right thing weather or not you get something for it, YOU JUST DO IT. Is anyone teaching this to their kids anymore, what the h*#$.

Correct me if I am wrong, but this list is a list of "pools" that have ALREADY been bought, and this is an example of the new guy cleaning house and stopping what the home owners can't afford.


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

James, you're assigning points of view that are not mine to me, asking me to explain them, and find yourself "outraged" at the rhetoric


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

Here's one of many charts that sums up *Conservative vs. Liberal* in some key areas. Everytime I read these, I wonder how many people are as liberal as they think... but then I am pretty much as Conservative as I think so it's possible





http://www.studentnewsdaily.com/other/conservative-vs-liberal-beliefs/


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

I was not assigning anything to you Jill. My post is in reference to the comments on this thread, some of them not made by you, which is why your name isn't mentioned. I am just asking that if someone wants to voice their opinion on a public forum that they be willing to explain it, excpecially if they are going to act like it was a "teaching" lesson. It is not fair to just say, well a large amount of people agree with me, so there. You know it is not a widely held belief by liberals that they are afraid of offending TERRORISTS. You are obviously referring to the concern about innocent muslims being targeted. That is a realistic concern and not one that should be considered a fault. Why, Jill, do you see that as a problem with liberals, Why does that show a lack of concern for National Security? Also, I'll ask again, doesn't this list show that the right thing is being done?


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

James, I am more concerned about keeping our Nation safe than I am about generating good will. I do favor profiling when it comes to security, as do many Americans. Yes, I want our borders protected (yet you seemed to imply that was right wing extreme). I do not look to government as the answer to personal problems yet that is a hallmark of the liberal-left point of view. I'm not sure what else you want from me as far as an explanation goes... which believe it or not, you are not actually owed.


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

There is a massive difference between saying, Liberals are concerned about offending the majority of innocent Muslims, and liberals are concerned about offending Terrorists. The first one is what you should of said, the second one is what you did say and is very hard to explain away. Either you are simply racist, or just were trying to twist the truth to make liberals appear like terrorist sympathizers. I personally think it is the second, I assumed calling you a bigot would motivate you to accept the lesser evil.

You don't owe me an explanation, but I will be on every single one of these manipulative threads, making sure everyone who reads them see's the other side, even though the silent majority has been silenced by the loud mouth minority.


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

andi said:


> There is a massive difference between saying, Liberals are concerned about offending the majority of innocent Muslims, and liberals are concerned about offending Terrorists. The first one is what you should of said, the second one is what you did say and is very hard to explain away. Either you are simply racist, or just were trying to twist the truth to make liberals appear like terrorist sympathizers. I personally think it is the second, I assumed calling you a bigot would motivate you to accept the lesser evil.
> 
> You don't owe me an explanation, but I will be on every single one of these manipulative threads, making sure everyone who reads them see's the other side, even though the silent majority has been silenced by the loud mouth minority.


James, in my opinion, you just _really_ don't get it -- but I'm always glad to have you chime in



Just don't count on baiting me into an argument with your thinly veiled accusations and name calling


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

I am sorry if they seem thinly veiled, they are not meant to be.

Don't you agree that using the term "terrorist" instead of "innocent muslim who needs to be racially Profiled to guarantee all of our safety" is either racist or an attempt to make liberals look bad. That is not a trick, I admit, either one is hard to admit to, and I wouldn't want to either, so I can understand your refusal.


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

James, I don't think you need any help making liberals look... _exactly_ like what so many of them are.

AND, while I hate to confuse you with any facts -- I never said_ racial_ profiling. I never said _guaranteed_ safety. One of my big political priorities is the safety of our Nation. You can try to vilify that if you want


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

Jill I have only stated facts. I agree, you used the word terrorists. The second description, "innocent muslim who needs to be racially Profiled to guarantee all of our safety", is what you SHOULD have said, but you said terrorist instead. The second is the ones that liberals have concerns about. I feel that profiling is an important tool that we can use but need to always be aware that it could go to far. When people see no difference between a terrrorist and muslim there is a problem. Like I said, I know you see a difference, you were just saying it to support your agenda and make liberals look worse than they are. If you had a different reason, LOVE to hear it.


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

Jill said:


> Liberals do not have the same set of priorities that I most value when it comes to those items I mentioned (personal responsibility & National defense). If they did, they'd be conservatives. And, yes, I do think most liberals tend to be kind of lazy, love government handouts, and while they don't want to be killed by terrorists, they also kinda don't want to hurt their feelings.


I am all in favor of catching more terrorists even if it means hurting some innocent feelings along the way. Personally, I love what I said above even though you keep harping on it. Refer to the chart I posted awhile ago, or any other Conservative vs. Liberal comparison chart, if you don't get why I am conservative and want a deeper understanding. Having a different opinion than you, James, doesn't mean I'm a bad or selfish person. On the other hand, you are welcome to think so if that helps to keep your liberal boat afloat.


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

Jill I agree, the different opinion on politics does not make you a bad person. Calling the innocent muslims who get their feelings hurt, Terrorists, does. And by the way, I am a GAY CONSERVATIVE! I am FOR profiling, I AGREE with most of the Conservative views on Abortion, I am against the Government Marrying ANYONE, I am for deporting anyone who refuses to become a legal citizen and contribute, including checking ID's and liscenses whenever possible. THAT is the reason I am so bothered by how you present your view points. I would REALLLLYYY prefer you on the other guys team.


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

Good for you on some of what you just said, James






I'm sorry if you want to let the way I state my opinions bother you



Freedom of expression can be a real _______, huh?





Maybe the reason I've not quite followed whatever point(s) you tried to make is that your heart was not actually in supporting a far left / opposite of my own point of view agenda. Who knows


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

So just to be clear Jill, you are refusing to acknowledge the fact that you have referred to innocent muslims as terrorists. That's not a real "issue", just your freedom of expression.


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

Just to be clear, James, I even quoted the paragraph that bothers you / "said it twice" and nothing about it bothers me. It also doesn't bother me that the words seem to have bothered you. No matter how many times you try to point it out and "shame me" over it. I can't remember very many times in my life that I've said -- or typed -- something I regretted or didn't mean. You don't have to like, approve of, nor endorse anything that I say. I posted a video without any real comment. You wanted to extend the discussion and we did. *shrug*


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

K, I follow, I will try to only reply to these topics to show the other side and ignore your comments. If racism isn't a regrettable offence or a point were we can admit we are wrong . . . no point really.


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## Jill (Jul 29, 2011)

Keep on trying to put words in my mouth, James


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## andi (Jul 29, 2011)

*Your Wording*

Liberals are too concerned about offending "terrorists."

*Actuall Issue*

Liberals are too concerned about offending "the Innocent muslims that will be involved in profiling."

Either you are racist Jill and you don't see anything misleading using these terms interchangeably

 OR 

You were trying to show Liberals in a worse light than they actually are so people would side with you


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## Sonya (Jul 29, 2011)

Perception is a funny thing....you can look at the actual words and see what they say, but percieve them how you like....doesnt mean what you percieve is correct, it's just your perception


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## Jill (Jul 30, 2011)

Right you are, Sonya.

I swear, though, with the race card and repeatedly asking me to validate his incorrect perception of what I said... James really is working from the liberal playbook.

Never did look it up in the thesaurus, James, but here's yet another "Whatever". It truly fits.


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Call me crazy, blame it on youthful ignorance, but I am just really trying to understand how I am putting words in your mouth and making you explain things you never said.

Maybe grasping at straws here but I am asking you to explain/justify saying that liberals are to concerned about offending terrorists. In reality what you actually said is "I do think most liberals tend to be kind of lazy, love government handouts, and while they don't want to be killed by terrorists, they also kinda don't want to hurt their feelings". Is the difference between what I have paraphrased and your direct quote the issue here?


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## Jill (Jul 30, 2011)

Jill said:


> I am all in favor of catching more terrorists even if it means hurting some innocent feelings along the way...


James, I said it before, and there it is again (above). This is what I already said in an attempt to explain it to you ^

It's how I feel. It's what I mean. I value the potential to save many lives above the potential to hurt some feelings. People walk away and continue to live their lives when their feelings have been hurt, but we don't get family members and friends back if they are killed.

You're projecting your incorrect perception of the meaning behind what I said onto me. Do you really think you're better able to know what I mean and my own beliefs than I am? It doesn't matter how many times you try to say I'm a racist or that I'm "trying to show Liberals in a worse light than they actually are" (your words)... Your repetitions do not change my actual intentions.

Hope that's good enough for you, but if not, of course, you can just write me off in *your* book, incorrectly, as a "bad person" and "racist" if that's what you want to do.


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Jill, I agree with you 1OO% on your reasoning on why you support profiling. A few people being inconvenienced or offended is well worth it if it saves lives.

No liberal is concerned about hurting *terrorists* feelings, they are more concerned than me and you about hurting the innocent muslims who get offended, I would think YOU would be able to admit that!


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## kaykay (Jul 30, 2011)

James I just want to say kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in.


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## Jill (Jul 30, 2011)

andi said:


> No liberal is concerned about hurting *terrorists* feelings, they are more concerned than me and you about hurting the innocent muslims who get offended ...


James, buddy, I'm not here to pat liberals on their overly sensitive backs







kaykay said:


> James I just want to say kudos to you for standing up for what you believe in.


"kaykay", I'm quite sure you know that I'm also standing up for what I believe in. *Transparent* much?


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Jill, Insert Agism slang here, you offend someone, you insult them, you make someone out to be something they are not. You most def. should be ready to pat them on the back, take it back, apologize, say you misspoke, not call them oversensitive.

And do not even imagine you are sticking up for what you beleive in, you are useing every single excuse not to take personal responsibility for the words coming out of your mouth.


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## Jill (Jul 30, 2011)

Absolutely not, James. I own everything I've said here -- and I like it all to boot. I think most liberals do a fine job living up to everything I've said and eluded to. I have not even a shred of desire to take it back, sugar coat it, nor apologize.


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## kaykay (Jul 30, 2011)

> "kaykay", I'm quite sure you know that I'm also standing up for what I believe in. Transparent much?


???

Who is over sensitive?

James is obviously in the minority in this discussion. Many people would have left and stopped posting. So yes I have a right to post that I admire him sticking with it.


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## Jill (Jul 30, 2011)

kaykay said:


> ???
> 
> Who is over sensitive?
> 
> James is obviously in the minority in this discussion. Many people would have left and stopped posting. So yes I have a right to post that I admire him sticking with it.


I'm saying liberals are overly sensitive, kaykay. I guess you didn't actually read any of this thread if you're asking, or if you think this has been much more than a one on one discussion between James and I regarding how he thinks I am supposed to feel about Liberals, and how he feels I should state my personal opinions.


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Jill, what with your fine taste in clip art, I would assume YOU would be offended if I eluded to the fact that you would rather be killed by a terrorist than offend one!


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## Jill (Jul 30, 2011)

andi said:


> Jill, what with your fine taste in clip art, I would assume YOU would be offended if I eluded to the fact that you would rather be killed by a terrorist than offend one!


Nope. Nuh-uh. Not so. Why would I care what you say _about_ me? That's not the same as caring that you not project your motives or interpretations into my own statements and present those motives, interpretations and meanings as my own.

So, enjoy... I've got an important client portfolio review at 1pm and need to get to my office


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## 2minis4us (Jul 30, 2011)

Never mind.....


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Jill you have make so many blanket statements about a group of people, Liberals, and eluded to so many negative qualities these people hold personally, all because of there political stance. You have taken their views and beleifs and projected your motives and interpretations into *their* own statements and presented your motives, interpretations and meanings as theirs. That has been MY whole point the entire time and you defend to the death it is okay to do so. The only thing I am assuming is that you are better than what you said, that you meant liberals are concerned about innocent muslims. If I am reading any more into your statements it's to defend you and agree with you.

Jill you said,not eluded to, though you admit to eludeing to many things, "I do think most liberals ... while they don't want to be killed by terrorists, they also kinda don't want to hurt their feelings".

Those are your words Jill, It is not my motive or interpretation that makes those words mean that Liberals are afraid of hurting Terrorists feelings, that is your voice. You want to say those are true words, that you honestly think Liberals are concerned about hurting terrorists feelings, go for it, say it. Without a bunch of screens and inferences, without blaiming your view points on me.


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## Sonya (Jul 30, 2011)

I find it disheartening that some would admire someone twisting someone else's words and then calling that person a rascist and bigot. Making blanket statements about 'liberals' is totally different than attacking someone personally. One of the things I dislike about this forum, many make these debates 'personal'.....Guess I'll go join Jill on that 'pedestal'.


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Liberals are afraid of being killed by terrorists, but are kinda concerned about offending innocent Muslims.

That is a true statement and very different than what Jill said.

I did not twist anyones words, I asked over and over for them to explain them and hoped they would correct or reword it if they misspoke. I then explained why, if read as written, they sounded racist. I ASKED for how I should perceive them, how they meant them, wouldn't they mean muslim.

I'll ask *you *Sonya, do you think Liberals are concerned about offending Terrorists, not Muslims, Terrorists.

Those are the words Jill is defending, they are not twisted or manipulated.

Makeing negative assumptions about a groups personal beleives and life styles, because of the political party they hold, that is a big issue. Be it liberal, conservative, muslim or gay.


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## Sonya (Jul 30, 2011)

James, I think many Liberals are concerned about offending everyone, except conservatives of course...lol.

Making negative assumptions about a political group is one thing, both parties do it, but making negative assumptions (like racism and bigot) to someone personally is out of line IMO. Jill did not use the words that you percieve, that's plain and simple...if you read her words and came up with a total different assumption of what she meant than she did, that doesn't make you correct, that doesn't make you right. If it did then I guess you'd be up on that pedestal w/Jill????


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## 2minis4us (Jul 30, 2011)

Never mind .....


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

If anyone can use the word terrorist and Muslim interchangeably they are being very racist. I explained to Jill that I DID NOT think thats what she meant, and asked her to clarify over and over. All she would say is I stand by what I said, I meant what I said. I Never Never insisted that the only way it could be interpretted was racist, I explained the alternative. An actually, now that you bring it up, there does seem to be a third. So you actually know Liberals that are afraid of offending actual terrorists, but don't mind offending conservative. And actually, you know enough of them to label liberals that way. I have a huge problem with both sides exhibiting this behavior. I have had to turn off John Stewart when he goes on a 3O minutes ramble against Fox, driven by his obviously supportive cast, when the other side has no opportunity to defend itself.

I mean read this,

"Nope. Nuh-uh. Not so. Why would I care what you say about me? That's not the same as caring that you not project your motives or interpretations into my own statements and present those motives, interpretations and meanings as my own."

So I could have called all Conservatives, including You and Jill, racists, because that is a commonly held stereotype against anyone who didnt vote for Obama. She wouldn't care, Nope, Nuh uh, Not so. If she did she would be oversensitive.

But if I get to know her opinions, hear her view points, and then ask her to clarify something cause it sounds mighty racist, thats a problem!


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## Carriage (Jul 30, 2011)

Interesting read for 5 pages.

Also very illuminating for those paying attention and in regards to points made in the past.

This has been 5 pages of (in this case) the right beating up on the left and to a minor extent the left beating up on the right. As I've clearly stated before, this fractionalization will lead us all to destruction and slavery. It's part of the Hegalian dialectic that you have been programed to perform. It also keeps you from seeking reality and THE truth. It is as clear as the nose on your face, yet it continues. An absolute dearth of knowledge regarding our Constitution shows on BOTH "sides". You play "party" politics while they strip your bones bare. You "think" you "know" the truth but your direction and the words you say clearly indicate that you don't. Also the date is 1913 if you are referring to financial change in this country.

Unfortunately, but as usual, those that have availed themselves to historical knowledge are dismissed or referred to as "crackpots" or "koolaid drinkers".

We're right and have been REPEATEDLY proved right, yet somehow we're still wrong. Until you refuse to be led by the nose and do your own homework (30 years in my case) this purposeful division will continue to be played out on you AND at your expense. I'll try not to be peeved overly much at having to go down the same road because the obvious is so easily dismissed by those that think they know what is going on, but haven't a clue really.

As to the original thread, I can't watch video's. However I would be very surprised to hear a true and factual explanation of the debt limit. Although a web based video would certainly stand a better chance of seeing the light of day than say, one of the numerous "talk" show hosts. Why? Because if they ever gave you the real explanation on air, their careers would be finished by C.O.B. How do I know? Because in the few instances where the brave soul stood up and gave the truth, this is precisely what has happened to them.

While I'm sure this will be dismissed or attacked in some way, I'll try again.

Homework,

Who has the most to gain or loose by raising or not raising the "debt" ceiling?

Think, who has been pushing hardest to get us to raise the ceiling?

To whom do we owe a lions share of this debt and how did the debt come about?

Feeling generous so I'll give you a clue, it's NOT a country but 1913 plays into it.

The focus should not be left or right, because that is precisely what "they" want.

It should not be racial as this to is a tool of division. It should not be class warfare as this is another tool of fractionalization. The more divided you are, the easier it is for you to be co-opted down a rabbit trail and destroyed/enslaved.

Lip service to the Constitution as it suits your purpose neither retains or re-enshrines it as the SOLE law of the land. Picking and choosing which parts you want to see observed at any given or transient moment is a non worker as well. It is ALL or SLAVERY. So far most are CHOOSING slavery. There can be only one party when we stand on the Constitution. Unity around this document is the ONLY thing that will work and they know this. "They" are not afraid of your guns as that is the realm supreme for them. What they DEATHLY afraid of is for the people to wake up and re-assert themselves in UNITY and for ONE purpose.

To wit,

"If those ants ever realize that they out number us 10 to 1, then our way of life is OVER"(emph. mine) Hopper in the movie Bugs Life

THAT is what they are most afraid of and therefore what we MUST do. OR you can continue to play right into their hands and insure that we ALL of us become complete slaves. The "neoright" still insists that we have lost no freedoms (no really and with a straight face) AND that free trade is still a fantastic thing. I thought only the horses were supposed to wear blinders......

Unity around the Constitution is the ONLY fix. Haven't we suffered enough under mafia control? Lets try something that actually worked once because the rest of it has ALWAYS failed through-out history

Unity WILL require hard work and also make you go places that you don't want to go. But if the truth is most important, then the trail or direction matters not. Lastly, you won't travel alone as there are folk like me on the trail with you. The buddy system at its finest.

Thank you for letting me share,

Bb


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## 2minis4us (Jul 30, 2011)

I choose to delete my posts on this subject after reading Carriage's post.


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## Sonya (Jul 30, 2011)

andi said:


> An actually, now that you bring it up, there does seem to be a third. So you actually know Liberals that are afraid of offending actual terrorists, but don't mind offending conservative. And actually, you know enough of them to label liberals that way.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Ha Ha, 2Minis4Us, Not sure if that means she said what you would like to say so just deleted your own.

Thanks you though for supporting haveing a different opinion and not being afraid of stating it.

One thing we all need to remember, like Carriages post points out, the only way to fix it is if we all UNITE and are vocal about working together. If what you are fighing for is based in UNSELFISH truth, you need to not be afraid of speaking up, you will feel in the minority, but when we all Speak up we realize we are 1O to 1 in reality.

I am very passionate about speaking up and am always afraid of the silent majority being dominated and ruled by the vocal minority. My recent, the last three years, trouble with trying to work on the measuring in AMHA had tought me first hand how hard it is to make change. No matter if you could talk to 9O of the members, and they all support you and agree, only about 1% will actually get up with you and be vocal, and against that 1O% of those against you, you FAIL MISSERABLEY.


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Sonya, I am sorry, those are questions, I am not assuming you know anyone or there beliefs. I lost the question mark on my Keyboard. My question was, Do you actually know liberals who are concerned about offending actual terrorists, in addition, do you know enough of them that you can label them all that way?

I would recommend, If some one is asking for you to clarify a comment that they found offensive, you don't make it a joke by making it even more offensive, or they will very likely look for clarification again.

I am having deja vu back to the last topic like this were I was accused of not having a sense of humor. When it comes to a serious issues and logical debates I find humor a crutch used to not own up to what you have said, so you won't find it in my posts very often. That being said, on the way out the door, it might get a bit LOL, and I really hope nobody gets offended. They will just be jokes . . .


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## 2minis4us (Jul 30, 2011)

The Federal Reserve runs the Government, right ?


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## Jill (Jul 30, 2011)

James, you know what? I'm done trying to explain anything to you in this thread. Clearly, you don't want to know why I said what I said -- you just want to put your projections upon me. You don't want to hear reality and you want to be some great supposedly conservative defender of liberals while falling back on every twisted, off base tactic liberals already use on their own. If you don't like what I say, I'm going to have to figure that's a good thing. Hope to see you chime in on some actual horse conversations, but the only time I notice you have anything to say is when you want to try to make it personal in a political thread. Better luck next time, I guess.


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

Jill it is rediculously simple to all but a very few,

Do you honestly know anyone who is concerned about Offending Terrorists, liberal or conserv?


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## Sonya (Jul 30, 2011)

oh my James is all I can say. If you want an answer to your question...yes, I do know of folks who are afraid of offending others to the extent that safety could/is compromised, and they do happen to be liberal and many do happen to be in charge of this countries welfare. Although this was never a statement I made I will gladly answer it. And if you find it insulting that I made a 'joke' to try to lighten the mood, I certainly find it insulting you refer individually to people as racist, and also that you presume to know about me and 'who I know'. I have to get back to work, I have lots of taxes to pay! Lol (a joke that I'm sure someone will find offensive)


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## andi (Jul 30, 2011)

I do not assume to know you or your friends, I have NEVER met anyone who was afraid of hurting a terrorists feelings. Jill's comment was in reference to the idea that liberals are anti profiling because they don't want to offend terrorists. Where are these people who don't want to hurt terrorists feeling, that have to much empathy for them, they do not exist. They are an over dramatization of the stereotypical Liberal, created to make people feel like if you are a liberal you are weak and not willing to defend your country.

Now to go continue my rain of terror on the other threads. Apparently I haven't met my quota too justify having an opinion. Hopefully I can regain everyones trust by leveling out with some "fluff pieces". Luckily I have some pretty extreme left wing view points on important issues like proper chest support and actually have quite a bit experience dyeing my eyebrows.


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## Carriage (Jul 31, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> The Federal Reserve runs the Government, right ?


My apologies if I was found to be offensive as my intent was to be the opposite.

While you have changed the question, you are on the right track. Following a holistic medicine approach, you will want to look, also, for the root cause, not focus soley on the symptom.

As such you want to find "the" source. If you will, you don't want the trigger man, you want to find the one giving the order to pull the trigger. You do want to punish the trigger puller however to apply the fix you need to remove the order giver.

To help I will post a quote from "the" source "Give me control of a countries currency and I care not who makes the laws"

The plot thickens.....

Interesting note on responses after my post and running in line with my experiences for years. The "conservative" had and has had no response to my pleadings for unity and a Constitutional fix. The proclaimed liberal responded correctly. Just now it struck me as akin to the posture and mindset between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Now while I'm sure that James and I would not see eye to eye on many topics, it is his response to the message of unity that gives it a fighting chance. I do find it curious that a guy, so conservative that he makes ol Rushbo look like the flaming lib that he is, can find common ground with an honest professing liberal. This also flies in the face of the far left assertion that the far right, which they see VERY little of EVER, is the big bad bugaboo they have been told, because......... Intellectual honesty and a willingness to learn is what we will all need if we are to dig out from this mess.

Putting aside the "petty" differences for now in order to unite and re-enshrine the Constitution will ensure that we can pick up the disagreements later if desired.

Failure to do so ensures that we will NOT because slaves enjoy no such luxury.

Well on to a beautiful Lord's day,

Bb


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## Carriage (Jul 31, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> The Federal Reserve runs the Government, right ?


My apologies if I was found to be offensive as my intent was to be the opposite.

While you have changed the question, you are on the right track. Following a holistic medicine approach, you will want to look, also, for the root cause, not focus solely on the symptom.

As such you want to find "the" source. If you will, you don't want the trigger man, you want to find the one giving the order to pull the trigger. You do want to punish the trigger puller however to apply the fix you need to remove the order giver.

To help I will post a quote from "the" source "Give me control of a countries currency and I care not who makes the laws" Here, I'll give you another from the source, "There would be no wars if my boys did not want wars". That last to round out just how much power this "source" has to exert.

The plot thickens.....

Interesting note on responses after my post and running in line with my experiences for years. The "conservative" had and has had no response to my pleadings for unity and a Constitutional fix. The proclaimed liberal responded correctly. Just now it struck me as akin to the posture and mindset between the Israelis and the Palestinians. Now while I'm sure that Andi and I would not see eye to eye on many topics, it is the response to the message of unity that gives it a fighting chance. I do find it curious that a guy, so conservative that he makes ol Rushbo look like the flaming lib that he is, can find common ground with an honest professing liberal. This also flies in the face of the "far left" assertion that the "far right", which they see VERY little of EVER, is the big bad bugaboo they have been told, because......... Intellectual honesty and a willingness to learn is what we will all need if we are to dig out from this mess.

Putting aside the "petty" differences for now in order to unite and re-enshrine the Constitution will ensure that we can pick up the disagreements later if desired.

Failure to do so ensures that we will NOT because slaves enjoy no such luxury.

Well on to a beautiful Lord's day,

Bb


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## kaykay (Jul 31, 2011)

> Putting aside the "petty" differences for now in order to unite and re-enshrine the Constitution will ensure that we can pick up the disagreements later if desired.Failure to do so ensures that we will NOT because slaves enjoy no such luxury.


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## 2minis4us (Jul 31, 2011)

Carriage said:


> My apologies if I was found to be offensive as my intent was to be the opposite.


Not offensive at all. The Federal Reserve are the ones in control IMO, and no, they are not the good guys. There is some interesting reading on the internet about what they do and why the country is in such a mess ! It's sickening.


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## Carriage (Jul 31, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> Not offensive at all. The Federal Reserve are the ones in control IMO, and no, they are not the good guys. There is some interesting reading on the internet about what they do and why the country is in such a mess ! It's sickening.


Oh good.

Yes I fully concur with your statements. The internet must always be "sifted" or read with a critical, objective and an educated and critical thinking mind as there is MUCH that is false and or thrown out to confuse and confound the pursuit of "the" truth. That being said, said "truth" IS out there.

However If I may, I would like you to expand the playing field a bit. The "fed" is a "trigger puller" and takes its marching orders like all the worlds central banks from a single source. It is this entity that is of profound importance. To follow the mafia theme, the fed represents a mafioso "lieutenant". Now that lieutenant does give orders, however they are passed on orders and the order does not originate with the lieutenant. The lieutenant takes its orders from the godfather. As the godfather has NO shortage of lieutenants, taking out one lieutenant does little permanent good.

One must remove the godfather as well if they expect any kind quasi permanent fix.

I say "quasi" in that it has never remained permanent. Countries have risen up to throw of the yoke of this monster and enjoyed freedom from it, for a while, but human nature being what it is they become lax in their vigilance and allow the foothold to be realized again. Without removing the godfather, you will find yourself in a fight for survival against much of the world unless they too rise up to throw of the yoke at the same time. Because any country declining to play ball with the godfather, and he has a VERY long memory, will find itself destroyed. Said country then finds itself playing ball as the godfather dictates and in slavery.

I would prefer liberty thank you very much.

What a beautiful day,

Bb


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## Jill (Aug 1, 2011)

Of course I love the idea of re-establishing our Nation's faith the Constitution. That's a hallmark value of the new common sense conservative movement. _ Dare I mention the Tea Party? That's at the heart of what it's about!_

I really love what shining star, Marco Rubio, said about the debt ceiling and Obama's recent address to our Nation. I can't imagine how anyone can fault what Rubio says here -- perfect logic from a common sense conservative:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WkFIXdby4Cs&feature=player_embedded


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## barnbum (Aug 1, 2011)

This is always a tricky topic to talk about with 5th graders, especially during an election year. It's important to me students understand the differences in Dem vs Rep beliefs. Jill--the link to the article on liberal vs conservative is very helpful as we approach this topic in current events talks this year. It can't be shared in its entirety, but parts will be wonderful to discuss with them. Being a conservative republican myself (there are a few areas where I lean left-death penalty and energy), it's hard to keep my thoughts to myself in the classroom, but I'm proud to say my students never have a clear idea who I voted for any year. I won't share that with them until after the election. I tell them it's not my job to persuade them to my way of thinking, it's my job to make sure they understand who they are voting for and why.



Then I do share my choice because they all turn in an Election Journal where they've gathered facts for weeks, with a conclusion statement about who they would have voted for and why. So it's only fair.



The students and parents enjoy the project because they all become better informed voters.

I strongly feel financial responsibility starts at home. My students get animated lessons in credit card use/use of checks/debt too.


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## Jill (Aug 1, 2011)

Karla, I'm happy you like the chart and will put it to good use! We need more of your unbiased approach in the classroom because I think there's a lot of left-liberal-progressive indoctrination that happens in schools these days. Makes me feel good to read how you handle this with your students


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## ohmt (Aug 1, 2011)

I have never had a teacher push their political ideas on me or other students nor have any of my 5 younger siblings. I am pretty sure if any did there would be parents banging down doors to get them out.


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## Ashley (Aug 1, 2011)

> James, I think many Liberals are concerned about offending everyone, except conservatives of course...lol.


I am a liberal and nobody would say that my mouth is afraid of offending anybody.

James, I think you have good points. However this topic is just another reason they were once closed and I feel you will be fighting on your own as most do not even post on them anymore because they always turn into bashing of one side or the other.


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## weebiscuit (Aug 3, 2011)

andi said:


> The solution on the other hand isn't quite rational. Replacing the guy in charge has made no difference. The same problem keeps happening no matter who is in charge sense 1917. We all need to take *personal responsibility* for insisting on adding the pool and getting the job for our friend, those are the actions that caused the problem, and we can't blame the person in charge for giving us what we asked for. The idea that replacing the person in charge is going to make everyone happy to give up their unnecessary Jobs and sell their pool table that they payed for with their home owners fee's isn't realistic. This shifting the blame to the person in charge is everyone's way of not feeling guilty for there own poor decisions.


I really feel that you are WAY off base in this assumption. Sorry, but it was NOT the Common Joe who got us into this problem. It was our government, which has been totally fiscally irresponsible for decades. And it's much worse now than ever.

We have multiple government agencies all being paid to do the same thing. We have massive welfare, disability, and medical fraud. Our government seems incapable of finding the source of it and stopping it.

We have been engaged in overseas wars which are draining our coffers. We have military bases all over the world where we no longer need them.

We have a Congress that votes themselves pay raises while other americans are losing their jobs. Our government officials are all on the best insurance plan in the nation. They receive daily expense accounts which are more than a lot of people earn while working a full time job. They can retire after ten years or so and receive government-paid health insurance AND a retirement income for the rest of their lives.

They have let unions control our nation's economy to the point that all our manufacturing has gone overseas, because companies can no longer afford to pay ridiculously high wages, health insurance, and still fill out all the government paperwork necessary to operate here.

We give billions in aid to nations which are hostile towards us and harbor terrorists.

Our government has become a parasite on the asses of the American people, and the current administration seems utterly clueless as to how to rectify it.

To blame the average american for this mess shows a complete lack of understanding as to how our current financial situation has gotten so out of hand. 



andi said:


> This video is a wonderful example of the sneaky way politics are played. I don't think that it is a coincidence that we have a very non threatening cartoon video, that is very well thought out and informative that explains a lot of information, relatively in-depth. But then in the last few moments throws in, vote out the president and magically the sun will start shining and all of our problems will disappear. I am thinking Tom made this video, and don't see it as a good sign that he will be any different than Steve if he is already spending his time and money makeing manipulative videos to trick voters into getting him in a position of power. LOL


I didn't vote for Obama because I thought he had a complete lack of experience. I also firmly believe that he didn't even have the slightest intentions of running for president, but the liberal party "found" him and felt they'd promote him, and he accepted. I'm sure they thought, "Hey... look at this Obama guy! Great looking, so he'll appeal to the women. Half white so he'll appeal to an even bigger cross-section of voters, and half black so we'll get the black vote. Smart, too, and a good public speaker. Let's get him to run, and he'll be a shoo-in."

Personally, I was NOT unhappy that we'd elected our first president of color, and he talked a good talk, so I went into his presidency with a bit of hope. Unfortunately, at this point I feel that Jimmy Carter is completely thrilled with Obama, because now there's another president who's worse than he was.

Obama is more concerned with being a "celebrity" than with tackling the problems facing our nation. Any idiot can figure out that you don't raise taxes in order to decrease the national debt. I don't care if we're talking millionaires or billionaires. You don't raise taxes to pay the debt. YOU CUT SPENDING! Raise taxes, and you'll keep raising them. It's time for this administration to get it's collective head out of it's collective butt and get serious about cutting spending, instead of providing free abortions to unwed mothers who think of them as a form of birth control. It's time to stop spending money on all these welfare cases and make them get off their butts and EARN that welfare check.

Out of work? Want the government to support you? Well, how about actually expecting them to work to receive that welfare check. They can pick trash up off of roadsides. They can mow lawn at our national parks, or hand out maps there. They can do any number of things instead of simply receiving a free hand out, which seems to be what this government is all about.


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## Jill (Aug 3, 2011)

Sandy



:yeah


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## andi (Aug 3, 2011)

My quotes above are referring only to the video that was the topic of the OP. They have nothing to do with my opinion of the current admin. I have always avoided "debating" politics and will continue to do so. I can understand and appreciate that we are all going to see different ways to the same solution. We all just need to respect eachother enough to admit that we are all working for the same thing. We all want a balanced government that we can all reap the benefits of. I have become more vocal to try and get people to see the difference between logical debates and sharing of ideas, and simply attacking the other side and assuming the very worst out of everything they do.


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## Jill (Aug 3, 2011)

James, to truly think that we are all working toward the same thing is so extremely naive. Optimistic maybe, but drastically uninformed as to reality.


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## andi (Aug 3, 2011)

I believe the general goal is to develop a country that is stable and in relation to others, balanced economically, while not taking away from peoples personal liberties. It is not an easy task and everyone will have a different idea were to draw that line.


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## Jill (Aug 3, 2011)

James, look into the invasive Progressive political agenda for some insight.


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## Carriage (Aug 3, 2011)

I don't care if we're talking millionaires or billionaires. You don't raise taxes to pay the debt. YOU CUT SPENDING! Raise taxes, and you'll keep raising them. I

Well said all the way around Miss Sandy, however I will take issue with a misplaced term. Both sides are not calling it taxes any more because of the overwhelming knee jerk reaction by a majority of the American people. It is now call "revenue". Please make a note of it....

I stopped calling it "taxes" a long time ago in favor of what should be it's proper name, THEFT. When you take, by threat of force, something that doesn't belong to you and that you have not earned, this is called THEFT.

It is so absolutely important that we use the right words and names for things. Even Fox "news" tells you right up front that they are not a "news" organization with their slogan "Fair and balanced". Tell ya what skippy, hows about you give me ALL the news and I will take care of fair and balanced. Unless there was an ulterior motive, "news" organizations would do just that. That they don't is clear indication that they are propaganda outlets and tools for purposes other than the "news".

Now as to the original thread, ol Farce Larceny was explaining the debt yesterday. He said in para, that the non foreign debt was "really just borrowing from ourselves". REALLY! Well then it should be ok to repudiate that portion of the debt and just have a do-over. UNLESS...... it really is a "debt" owed to a private corporation who has been financially raping us for many years. I just smiled because he is such an obvious baiter for the purpose of what he considers "good radio". He knows better because MANY folk have been telling him the truth for years! He also stated that we need to sell off "federal lands and forests". Having been told repeatedly that these lands have been stolen from the states unConstitutionally and must first be returned to them prior to sale to a private party he continues to ignore the Constitution and throw it under the bus any chance he gets. When asked if he makes a habit of selling stuff that doesn't belong to him, he answers not. There is NO enumeration that allows the fed gov to own a forest. If there is no mechanism to allow same then the lands have been stolen from their rightful owner, the States and the sovereign citizens of that State. If this is where your "schooling" is coming from, and for the most part it is, then it becomes easy to see how we got here and where it is going to end and why you would reject truth when presented.

And STILL without jobs "free trade" is pursued. Further the ones what caused it are complaining of unemployment (a private insurance contract) and that the guy with a PHD should be taking a job flipping burgers. Really? Nobody see's the irony of this position?

The fed puts us in hock for TRILLIONS of dollars for foreign banks and insurance conglomerates, yet the farce of a charade called the debt ceiling "crisis" and Obama's mafioso tactic of scaring granny by saying "I don't know if I will be able to mail your SS check in August seems to go by un-noticed by most.

As I have stated before if any of these tools and change agents gave you the truth, their careers would be finished very shortly.

I guess unity is too tall an order and too hard for most folk. It is much easier, and more fun, to follow the script of bashing the other guy. So far almost everyone is playing their part perfectly including remaining willfully ignorant of the monster that is sinking its fangs into them right now.

I have wondered how many folk in history tried to warn their fellow countrymen of the calamity coming to destroy their nation, only to be ignored or worse. They too were in the position of seeing the problem coming and having to just watch because their fellow country men either could not or would not see it as well and move to fix it. Betcha its always been a sucky position to be in.

I need to go focus on work as it does give me joy,

Bb


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## tagalong (Aug 3, 2011)

Carriage said:


> \The fed puts us in hock for TRILLIONS of dollars for foreign banks and insurance conglomerates, yet the farce of a charade called the debt ceiling "crisis" and Obama's mafioso tactic of scaring granny by saying "I don't know if I will be able to mail your SS check in August seems to go by un-noticed by most.


Oh pleeeease. All politicians do that at some point - look at all the "mafioso" tactics during the healthcare ruckus or even the 2008 campaign. Saying that SS checks might be delayed was mild compared to "grannies" being told that they would have no SS, that they woud be judged by _*threatening drumroll*_ new Death Panels, that if Obama was elected or healthcare was passed, their lives would be changed forever and the country would immediately turn into some kind of frightening socialist state. Those "socialist" threats were played up to the hilt (many not even knowing exactly what it meant) - and many were worried that we would turn into a Stalin era Russia. And if THAT did not work, then the inevitable comparisons to Hitler and the Nazis were/are made.

But this kind of stuff (below) does not even come close to that - the debt ceiling "crisis" ...



> The full consequences of a default — or even the serious prospect of default — by the United States are impossible to predict and awesome to contemplate. Denigration of the full faith and credit of the United States would have substantial effects on the domestic financial markets and the value of the dollar in exchange markets. The Nation can ill afford to allow such a result. The risks, the costs, the disruptions, and the incalculable damage lead me to but one conclusion: the Senate must pass this legislation before the Congress adjourns.


Oh wait... Reagan said that in 1983. Nothing ever really changes. The debt ceiling was raised 18 times during his administration. 7 times during Bush's (W) terms. The only President that never raised the debt ceiling was Truman.

Obama has already raised it 3 times - on Feb. 17, 2009, Dec. 28, 2009 and Feb. 12, 2010. And yet some are outraged about this as if it has never happened before - that is a headscratcher.



> I believe the general goal is to develop a country that is stable and in relation to others, balanced economically, while not taking away from peoples personal liberties. It is not an easy task and everyone will have a different idea were to draw that line.


IMO you are exactly right, *James*. It is just the way to achieve that GENERAL goal that becomes the issue...

Meh, I should know better than to post in these threads.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 3, 2011)

tagalong said:


> Meh, I should know better than to post in these threads.


Tag - how dare you chime in - you're not even American how could you possibly have anything to contribute



Go back to your room and stay there



:rofl


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## Jill (Aug 3, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> Tag - how dare you chime in - you're not even American how could you possibly have anything to contribute
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Stir it, why don't you, miniwhinny.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 4, 2011)

Jill said:


> Stir it, why don't you, miniwhinny.


Oh, I'm sad you interpreted my actions that way



I was just trying to help you enforce your board rules Jill. Knowing how much it upsets you when a non citizen tries to talk politics I was trying to be helpful and save you some stress by stopping it before it went any further...and obviously my stepping in on your behalf worked.


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## Jill (Aug 4, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> Oh, I'm sad you interpreted my actions that way
> 
> 
> 
> I was just trying to help you enforce your board rules Jill. Knowing how much it upsets you when a non citizen tries to talk politics I was trying to be helpful and save you some stress by stopping it before it went any further...and obviously my stepping in on your behalf worked.


Miniwhinny, you're a shoe in if there's ever a resident, anonymous / never named troll contest on LB. You're always much more likely to try to fan flames, be nasty and stir up anger than to contribute something of worth or on message. Nothing was going wrong with the discussion and you were not trying to keep it from going in a negative direction. You were very transparently aiming to be spiteful, once again, Ms. Kitty. Maybe tomorrow will be a better and more uplifting day for you


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## miniwhinny (Aug 4, 2011)

Jill said:


> Miniwhinny, you're a shoe in if there's ever a resident, anonymous / never named troll contest on LB. You're always much more likely to try to fan flames, be nasty and stir up anger than to contribute something of worth or on message. Nothing was going wrong with the discussion and you were not trying to keep it from going in a negative direction. You were very transparently aiming to be spiteful, once again, Ms. Kitty. Maybe tomorrow will be a better and more uplifting day for you


Jillie !!! Name calling?! Now that's not kind



Most of us left that behind a long time ago



Ms. Kitty - I LOVE it!!!



Especially as I'm sitting here with a litter of kittens I'm having a hard job parting with








Never mind, I'd love to stop and play kindergarten but the Fedex truck is rolling up the road and I'm expecting the delivery of THE most fantastically colored Euphyllia that I've seen in 20 years of collecting and I really want to get it acclimated and into my reef tank.

Gotta help stimulate the economy you know...my favorite motto "if you've got it, spend it"


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## Jill (Aug 4, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> Jillie !!! Name calling?! Now that's not kind
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just happy to call you out, sunshine. It's common knowledge that you were about 5yrs past due


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## tagalong (Aug 4, 2011)

...and yet another thread turns into namecalling and sneering....


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## miniwhinny (Aug 4, 2011)

Jill,

have you ever stopped to look back at some of the threads that have gone south? There's a lot of them out there and there's a lot of folks who get called names and jeered at but there is ONLY one person consistently on the other side of the trouble.

I hate to break it to you but there IS one common denominator in them all and it ain't me





I don't need MODs to step in because believe me I have big girl panties but I am surprised they allow the kind of childish, personal name calling that you stoop to over and over to be allowed.

Edited to say I noticed your attack on James that got quite nasty this morning had 2 pages deleted!


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## Jill (Aug 4, 2011)

Miniwhinny, you were (and are) not doing anything other than trying to stir up arguments. You know it. I know it. Everyone knows it.



miniwhinny said:


> Tag - how dare you chime in - you're not even American how could you possibly have anything to contribute
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sonya (Aug 4, 2011)

well I have to stick up for Jill on this, she never personally attacked James (or Tag) on this thread even though she was called a racist and bigot....she did not say anything to Tag about her post on this thread, yet others want to bring up something she said before in previous political discusions that happened weeks to months ago....if that's not pot stirring than what is?


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## Jill (Aug 4, 2011)

Thank you, Sonya. I really appreciate it!


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## weebiscuit (Aug 4, 2011)

Jill said:


> We need more of your unbiased approach in the classroom because I think there's a lot of left-liberal-progressive indoctrination that happens in schools these days.


YA THINK??? Do you remember what was happening here in Wisconsin early this last spring, when Gov. Walker challenged the collective bargaining of unions and the teachers went bonkers?

My husband is a retired teacher. I taught school for 20 years, but didn't have enough time in to retire. I simply quit because we had our own business which was doing well.

Yet, every teacher we've ever run into who knows us goes into a long diatribe against Walker, and one even called us and asked if we wanted to join their protest in Madison! They all think that because we were "teachers" we are liberals. FAR FROM IT!

A few weeks ago I went for a scooter ride with a lady who just retired from teaching, because, as she said, "Because of Walker my pay check will now be $6,000 a year less, so I might as well retire before he even takes our retirement funds." Then she asked me if I wanted to go to a fund raiser with her for a liberal shill who is trying to replace one of the Republican's I voted for in the last election, due to a recall. When I told her no, that actually I was NOT a liberal, she seemed totally stunned and said, "I thought ALL teachers were liberals! I can't believe you're republican!" I told her I wasn't a republican, wasn't a liberal, but identified more with the conservative party than I could ever identify with the liberal party, but I was actually more libertarian than republican.

Well, earlier in the summer we'd made plans to go on scooter rides maybe once a week and have lunch. That last scooter ride, when she found out I wasn't a liberal, was the last time she called me to take a ride.


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## tagalong (Aug 5, 2011)

weebiscuit said:


> Well, earlier in the summer we'd made plans to go on scooter rides maybe once a week and have lunch. That last scooter ride, when she found out I wasn't a liberal, was the last time she called me to take a ride.


Well, her pettiness has nothing to do with the fact that she is a liberal. She would be the same way if the situation was reversed and she was a died-in-the-wool Republican or Tea Partier.... dumbness has no left or right label/boundary, that's for sure.



> well I have to stick up for Jill on this, she never personally attacked James (or Tag) on this thread even though she was called a racist and bigot....she did not say anything to Tag about her post on this thread, yet others want to bring up something she said before in previous political discusions that happened weeks to months ago....if that's not pot stirring than what is?


I never said *Jill *said anything - just noted that another thread teetered into namecalling and sneering and sniping. It takes TWO to do that.


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## Jill (Aug 5, 2011)

Sandy, oh yes, I remember the issues in WI. You go girl! I think the teachers' fake doctors' notes should have been fully redeemable for fake paychecks if not real pink slips





Tag, I'm always going to stand up for myself when I should -- and _"I shoulda"_ here


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## miniwhinny (Aug 5, 2011)

Sonya said:


> (well I have to stick up for Jill on this, she never personally attacked James (or Tag) *on this thread* even though she was called a racist and bigot....she did not say anything to Tag about her post *on this thread*) yet others want to bring up *something she said *before in previous political discusions that happened weeks to months ago....if that's not pot stirring than what is?




You're logic is a little off but that's okay I'll explain why





You're admitting that something was said. If what was said, and it's been said numerous times, wasn't outright rude (I remember one of our British members using the words "blinkered") to many then why would anyone else bringing it up be "stirring the pot"? People repeat what others say all the time on MB's without the OP getting upset about it. People have to own their words - Jill said what Jill said and she's stood by it time after time. How can anyone be "stirring the pot" if nothing wrong was said in the first place?

There are no rules that say person A can come on and say anything they like to anyone regardless of the consequences and then get upset when that very comment, they freely contributed, is referred to. If they say it and are proud to own it - then why would they get upset when their own words are repeated back?


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## tagalong (Aug 5, 2011)

> Tag, I'm always going to stand up for myself when I should -- and "I shoulda" here


Fine - BUT one must also consider the old adage - _people who live in glass houses shouldn't throw stones..._ you cannot deny that you have gone out of your way to stir the pot and light fires many many times in these threads....



... and patted yourself on the back for it!


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## Sonya (Aug 5, 2011)

Miniwhinny I NEVER said Jill said something wrong on other posts, it may have been something you didn't agree with but that doesn't make it wrong. Not to mention she never said in those other threads that folks couldn't post, she said she didn't have to consider their opinion and that's her choice (which I happen to agree with)....that being said....YOU ARE STIRRING THE POT, it couldn't be more obvious!

(Tag for the record I didn't mean you were stirring the pot, I was referring to Miniwhinny).


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## Jill (Aug 5, 2011)

Tag, I do not try to stir up animosity -- but I will stand up for myself and I will express my point of view even if it's not always the popular train of thought. There wasn't anything going wrong here with this discussion and that, apparently, isn't how miniwhinny likes it.

And, thank you again Sonya. That is exactly how I feel on American politics. I personally don't care what the outside perspective on American politics is but that is* not* the same as saying that I think an outside perspective shouldn't be voiced or that others aren't very welcome to enjoy it and indulge in it as they see fit. I'm sure Sonya and I are on the same page here. When it comes to internet conversation on the topic, I'm strictly interested in the American perspective on American politics and there is not anything evil about admitting that -- everyone is free to post and read or not read as they see fit.


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## tagalong (Aug 5, 2011)

> I personally don't care what the outside perspective on American politics is


_But __*Jill*__ - I am NOT on the __*outside*_ - and that is where your carefully crafted excuse not to consider anything I say as valid - or to sneer at my opinion -_ falls __*completely*__ apart._ I am more "inside" than many American citizens who cannot be bothered with current events or voting or volunteering their services to those who need it - or anything mundane like that. I am HERE on the INSIDE._ Paying taxes and doing every single thing that you do _- and maybe more, for all I know. All I lack is that one piece of paper that Homeland Security denies to my visa and yet the last two Presidents have wanted to present to illegals as part of an amnesty program. That burns me up.

Maybe I have an even better perspective on things than you do - as I have been on the "outside" looking in as well - and have experienced firsthand many of the things that Chicken Little talking heads and viral emails squawk about... usually erroneously. I may actually have a far more well-rounded outlook...

But hey, now that both you and *Sonya* have decided that anything I say must be dismissed



(as you wish) - _as you have repeatedly stated while lashing out, stirring the pot and fanning the flames merrily along the way_



- you can just scroll by. But in this age of the internet and instant mass communication - IMO dismissing other input like that is kinda like sticking your head in the sand - or maybe unplugging your computer from anything except your local neighbourhood....





How do you know what someone's nationality is when they post? You don't have a freakin' clue unless they tell you. I guarantee you that many you may be chatting with on political forums are NOT American... the only reason you know I am Canadian (aside from my spelling) is because I was relating Homeland Security/Immigration policy screw-ups - and offering first hand experience (and that of friends and family) on Canadian healthcare that disagreed with what some lame viral email claimed was the truth and the norm...



it wasn't. Not even close. But hey - a 95% false viral email has far more validity than personal firsthand experience - I understand that...


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## 2minis4us (Aug 6, 2011)

Ever since this thread started I can't get the song out of mind by Thunderclap Newman, Something In the Air.


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## Jill (Aug 6, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> Ever since this thread started I can't get the song out of mind by Thunderclap Newman, Something In the Air.


I looked up the lyrics... but I still do not get it


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## 2minis4us (Aug 6, 2011)

Jill said:


> I looked up the lyrics... but I still do not get it


It's a song from the late 60's about drugs and war but I think of it in modern times, the meaning of it is what ever you want it to be.


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## Jill (Aug 6, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> It's a song from the late 60's about drugs and war but I think of it in modern times, the meaning of it is what ever you want it to be.


Okay... Then I want it to be about spending cuts, reduced regulation and smaller government


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## 2minis4us (Aug 6, 2011)

When you put it that way so do I !


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## Jill (Aug 6, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> When you put it that way so do I !


Yep


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## miniwhinny (Aug 6, 2011)

tagalong said:


> _But __*Jill*__ - I am NOT on the __*outside*_ - and that is where your carefully crafted excuse not to consider anything I say as valid - or to sneer at my opinion -_ falls __*completely*__ apart._ I am more "inside" than many American citizens who cannot be bothered with current events or voting or volunteering their services to those who need it - or anything mundane like that. I am HERE on the INSIDE._ Paying taxes and doing every single thing that you do _- and maybe more, for all I know. All I lack is that one piece of paper that Homeland Security denies to my visa and yet the last two Presidents have wanted to present to illegals as part of an amnesty program. That burns me up.
> 
> Maybe I have an even better perspective on things than you do - as I have been on the "outside" looking in as well - and have experienced firsthand many of the things that Chicken Little talking heads and viral emails squawk about... usually erroneously. I may actually have a far more well-rounded outlook...
> 
> ...


Tag,

you and I have differences in politics but I love the fact that you are knowledgeable and educated enough to know what you're talking about and not just repeating the talking heads like so many do. You're open minded enough to teach, to learn and to share ideas and thoughts.

I tell you what though sure don't want to be in the market tomorrow morning with any short term open trades. I'd be very surprised if all heck doesn't beak loose after our credit rating was reduced. So much for everyone working together. Can you imagine a business running this way - half the building not only dislikes but refuses to work with the other half!



Why does that seem so bizarre to all of us but the politicians.


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## maestoso (Aug 6, 2011)

That video is informative. The problem I see is that for anyone simple minded enough to believe it, it suggests that the fix is easy. Just choose a new leader, problem solved. It is not that easy. As the video states, the debt ceiling has been increased time and time again, by both republican and democratic leaders. This video is just another piece of political propaganda developed in hopes that it can catch the attention of some voter who is attracted to the idea of an easy way out. Reality is that there is no easy way out, and regardless of who the next leader is, they will likely not be able to fix the problem within their term. We can hope for progress, but the road ahead is long. What we need is a leader who'll make smart decisions. And I don't believe for a second that that person is more likely to be republican or democrat. Either type of leader can be smart, make good choices, lead us well. Jill, it is not your opinion that I find offensive, it is your assumption that liberals/democrats can be categorized and stereotyped so simply. That's just ignorant.

I would like to address government handouts/welfare for a moment. You give off the impression that most of "those" people are democrats/liberals. Well in my opinion, it's doubtful that most of the people utilizing those services are educated enough to identify with one party or the other, or informed enough to even be knowledgable about the issues. While I have some conservative perspectives, I would say that for the most part I consider myself a "liberal." My biggest concern for "those" people is education. They are not educated. They are not educated for many possible reasons. Maybe they just didn't have the motivation, maybe they didn't have the push from responsible parents. But in many cases they are not educated because they did not have the opportunity to be educated. I feel blessed that I have parents that could afford to put me through college, and blessed that if they couldn't, I had the drive and motivation to do it for myself. But that drive and motivation is the result of a good education and a decent upbringing.

I am going to be slightly hypocritical at the moment and "group" the republicans together, whom if had their way, would not provide any hand-outs at all. If education were a handout, we'd have a country full of exponentially more educated citizens, who would watch videos like the one you just posted and realize that it is not that simple. They would realize this because education is what teaches people how to think critically and think for themselves, instead of relying on somebody elses thinking, who may have underlying motives and a manipulative way of captivating the attention of anyone willing to listen.

Countries far more successful than we are, thriving countries, offer free education. An opportunity we'll likely never see if the republicans get what they are looking for. Why are they thriving?? BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THEIR CITIZENS ARE EDUCATED! Unfortunately, the educated human being has become the minority in the US, and until that problem gets addressed, we will never improve, regardless of who is leading us.

I think we need to work on addressing problems with solutions that make sense, not with solutions that are based on a conservative or liberal perspectives, for the sake of being conservative or liberal.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 6, 2011)

maestoso said:


> That video is informative. The problem I see is that for anyone simple minded enough to believe it, it suggests that the fix is easy. Just choose a new leader, problem solved. It is not that easy. As the video states, the debt ceiling has been increased time and time again, by both republican and democratic leaders. This video is just another piece of political propaganda developed in hopes that it can catch the attention of some voter who is attracted to the idea of an easy way out. Reality is that there is no easy way out, and regardless of who the next leader is, they will likely not be able to fix the problem within their term. We can hope for progress, but the road ahead is long. What we need is a leader who'll make smart decisions. And I don't believe for a second that that person is more likely to be republican or democrat. Either type of leader can be smart, make good choices, lead us well. Jill, it is not your opinion that I find offensive, it is your assumption that liberals/democrats can be categorized and stereotyped so simply. That's just ignorant.
> 
> I would like to address government handouts/welfare for a moment. You give off the impression that most of "those" people are democrats/liberals. Well in my opinion, it's doubtful that most of the people utilizing those services are educated enough to identify with one party or the other, or informed enough to even be knowledgable about the issues. While I have some conservative perspectives, I would say that for the most part I consider myself a "liberal." My biggest concern for "those" people is education. They are not educated. They are not educated for many possible reasons. Maybe they just didn't have the motivation, maybe they didn't have the push from responsible parents. But in many cases they are not educated because they did not have the opportunity to be educated. I feel blessed that I have parents that could afford to put me through college, and blessed that if they couldn't, I had the drive and motivation to do it for myself. But that drive and motivation is the result of a good education and a decent upbringing.
> 
> ...






:yeah



Brilliant post. I think you hit every nail smack on the head.


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## weebiscuit (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't know how to quote from two separate postings, so I'm addressing two people in this post.

First, tagalong..... I didn't know you were Canadian. I want to preface my remarks by saying that I have quite a few very good Canadian friends... all from Ontario. We've been back and forth to each others' homes many times. We all met in 1997, on the internet, of all places! We had a get together in Toronto in 1997 and in 1998 an even bigger one at my place in Wisconsin. I dearly love my Canadian friends, and thank them heartily for introducing me to Tim Horton coffee and Red Rose tea!

On a trip to Hawaii with four of my Canadian friends, we went to the USS Arizona WWI Memorial at Pearl Harbor. While in the one area with the shrine to the dead sailors, it was a very somber place, and we were all full of reverence for what happened there. There happened to be a group of Japanese high school students there at the same time, and they were all laughing, noisy, and not at all respectful while in this shrine area, and one of the canadian women I was with walked up to them and said, "Show a little respect here or leave!" Being Japanese, they didn't argue but certainly quieted down. Also, during a film of the attack, this same Canadian woman had tears running down her cheeks. These were NOT Canadian military that were killed, but US men, yet she cried for them. I will always love her for that!

Here's something I've learned about Canadians, too. Besides being just darned polite, they are, as you said, very aware of politics in the US... sadly, often more aware of them than US citizens we allow to vote. My Canadian friends are what we here in the states would call "liberals." We get into arguments all the time over socialized health care, but while they see major problems in their health care system, they also feel it's far superior to privatized health care.

When we have elections here, (these canadians are on another discussion board with me), they seem to know the issues and the candidates as well as any US citizen I know.

Now, to maestoso... you were discussing welfare and uneducated people who utilized it. You said, "But in many cases they are not educated because they did not have the opportunity to be educated.*"*

* *

I don't agree with this assessment at all. EVERY child has the opportunity to a free public education through high school. After high school, there are government grants, student work programs, low-interest loans, and local and state scholarships available to anyone with the MOTIVATION to get a college degree.

We are ranked low in our nation when it comes to educational standards. That's because nothing has changed since we first became a nation and set aside one section in each township for a public school. Now we have consolidated, but we have not changed the "system" at all over the years. I agree that we need to look at other educational systems from countries with higher results than ours and see if we can't learn something from them.

I also agree with you that we need to provide MORE opportunities for higher education. But I don't believe we should allow illegal aliens the same entree to our universities as US citizens have, yet here in Wisconsin, our "liberal" government two years ago voted to allow illegal immigrants to attend our Wisconsin universities for in-state tuition costs. Doesn't matter if they live in Oregon.. they can come here and pay in-state tuition. Yet a good student from Ohio, whose parents pay income taxes and whose money STAYS in the US, would have to pay out-of-state tuition. Where is the sense in this?

I believe that higher education should be more affordable for all students. This would require eliminating the unions that currently provide outlandish salaries to professors who sometimes are not even in the classrooms, but allow TA's to teach instead. But I don't believe it should be free.

I am a former teacher with a MA degree. So is my husband. Yet we are both very ANTI-union. I also happen to believe that college is highly over-rated. I think about 50% of those students would be better off and make a better income in a two year tech school.

We have three adult kids. Sadly, one of them never wanted to go to college. Yet, at age 38 his income is $175,000 per year. He is in an executive position and got that position because he's smart. Another child dropped out of college after one year. She is currently a bank manager. i don't know what she makes but she's 30 years old and has just bought a beautiful three-year-old home and drives a 2010 model car and seems to have all she needs or wants. Our third child went to college on an ROTC scholarship, and is half owner and vice president of an engineering firm. So, two out of three kids not college graduates, but they made it in this world due to motivation, drive, and brains.

And that is the problem with offering free education to anyone who wants it. You will open the floodgates to students who are NOT motivated and have no desire to succeed, but will simply be there taking up university space because their government has taught them once again that they can do absolutely nothing and get something for free. And what the heck... if they manage to graduate but are still unemployable due to poor work ethics or personality problems, it's no big deal because the government will provide them with a welfare check. This is no way to address the problems we are facing as a nation. No, I don't feel that college should be available only to the rich, but I would never agree that it should be free. When students are taught early on that they must WORK for what they want in life, I feel that better character and work ethics are developed.

When a student has to pay for that education, then there is a lot more at stake in the outcome.


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## maestoso (Aug 7, 2011)

Weebiscuit........when is the last time you applied for a student loan, scholarship, grant or financial aid? The idea that it is possible and attainable for anyone who wants it (in this day and age, NOT 20 years ago) is a fairy land fantasy and simply not true.


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## Mark & Sharon Bullington (Aug 7, 2011)

Saw a bumper sticker the other that reminded me of Jill. It said "My sticker may not agree with your sticker - but I'll defend until death your right to STICK IT!


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## ohmt (Aug 7, 2011)

I am a college student-the oldest of 6 and the only one over 18. My mother has raised us on her own on a salary of $40,000 ($30,000 before she went back to college to get her bachelors-she had already attended a 2 yr tech school). You would think I would get a lot of financial aid, right? NO. Financial aid covers half. The other half I have to negotiate with my school in payments that I pay off throughout the semester. I take 20 credits a semester and I have to work full time plus still work at the farm to pay for my education. I was finally given a pell grant last semester for the first time (1,000). I can get a personal 'college' loan if and only if I have someone able to cosign which means they must have decent credit. My mother does not and they will not allow my grandparents to cosign since they are retired and do not receive enough income. Scholarship? Oh yes, i received plenty but they lasted my freshman year and that was it. Past freshman year they go to 4.0 students who have the time to volunteer. I get a 3.5 (I was not able to get an A in chemistry, organic chemistry, pchem, or biochem) and i work work work so no scholarships for me. I would like to know how anyone that did not grow up in a wealthy family can get a college education without constantly fighting tooth and nail for it. A middle class family is screwed-no financial aid and no extra money to spare. I absolutely understand why many people give up on college.

I have noticed that the past few years I have more and more people in my classes that have come back to get their bachelors because their 2 year degree isn't cutting it. That includes my boyfriends mother who worked 20 years for a company as a financial advisor making 100,000+. The company was bought out and she has been unable to find a job for 2 years. She is incredibly smart and has amazing work ethic so that's not the problem. Everyone wants a bachelors degree or higher.

While I love hearing your wonderful, cheerful stories Weebiscuit, not everyone has such an easy life as yours and your children's. In fact, most don't and that is NOT because they are daft, dumb, or lazy.

It is late and I might be sleep drunk and will probably regret this post tomorrow-for now I hope someone will understand there are people struggling who do NOT get everything for free. Who work hard for education and food. Stop making generalizations.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

maestoso said:


> ... I would like to address government handouts/welfare for a moment. You give off the impression that most of "those" people are democrats/liberals....


Let's refresh the different philosophies followed by Liberals/Democrats vs. Conservatives/Republicans. I didn't design the platforms and if you don't think that's what a Liberal is or that's what a Conservative is, maybe you aren't yet set on your own political identity.

*LIBERALS* - believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.

Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.

*CONSERVATIVES* - believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.

Conservative policies generally emphasize empowerment of the individual to solve problems.



maestoso said:


> Countries far more successful than we are, thriving countries, offer free education. An opportunity we'll likely never see if the republicans get what they are looking for. Why are they thriving?? BECAUSE THE MAJORITY OF THEIR CITIZENS ARE EDUCATED! Unfortunately, the educated human being has become the minority in the US, and until that problem gets addressed, we will never improve, regardless of who is leading us.


Public employee unions, which protect poor performing teachers, are a huge part of why our eduction system is broken. Pouring more money into a broken vase will not cause it to do a better job with its water. We should bring schools to a more local level, get employee unions out of the public sector (not just in schools), and let the free market do what the free market does best -- work!


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Mark & Sharon Bullington said:


> Saw a bumper sticker the other that reminded me of Jill. It said "My sticker may not agree with your sticker - but I'll defend until death your right to STICK IT!


My reply to your remark is really just a quote from comedian and conservative talk show host, Dennis Miller, reflecting what he said about anti-American film maker and liberal icon, Michael Moore:

"Michael Moore simultaneously represents everything I detest in a human being and everything I feel obligated to defend in an American. Quite simply, it is that stupid moron's right to be that utterly, completely wrong."


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## Mark & Sharon Bullington (Aug 7, 2011)

Now of course Jill, I know you have more sense and class than to call me a "stupid moron".


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

ohmt said:


> I am a college student...


Amanda, do you think if it were not so easy to get low interest rate, government subsidized loans that a college education would cost as much as it does today, or that the cost would be escalating so much faster than inflation? I don't. Just one example of our tax dollars at work, but helping us? Maybe not so much.

And actually, as a part of what I do for a handful of clients, I do know a fair amount about college planning and funding.... which brought my thoughts to your comments about an out of work financial adviser close to your family. There are a few ways to be in this line of work. I've always been independent and never an employee of anyone other than the corporation I own. In exchange for not being an employee of a big name brokerage or insurance company, I cover all my own overhead including staff salaries, ETC. But the only time I get "fired" is if / when I lose a client. Even when I was a registered principal of a National firm, I was an independent contractor and they really just facilitated the securities work I did. Right or wrong, the way I approach my career and my political view point are intertwined.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

Mark & Sharon Bullington said:


> Now of course Jill, I know you have more sense and class than to call me a "stupid moron".


Well, I was actually hoping you'd chalk it up, at least in part, to creativity





And I want to show off one of my new favorite bumper stickers... since we're on the subject. I was happy to find one that could in no way be mistaken at a glance for a real Obama sticker.


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## miniwhinny (Aug 7, 2011)

maestoso said:


> Weebiscuit........when is the last time you applied for a student loan, scholarship, grant or financial aid? The idea that it is possible and attainable for anyone who wants it (in this day and age, NOT 20 years ago) is a fairy land fantasy and simply not true.





weebiscuit said:


> I also agree with you that we need to provide MORE opportunities for higher education. But I don't believe we should allow illegal aliens the same entree to our universities as US citizens have, yet here in Wisconsin, our "liberal" government two years ago voted to allow illegal immigrants to attend our Wisconsin universities for in-state tuition costs. Doesn't matter if they live in Oregon.. they can come here and pay in-state tuition. Yet a good student from Ohio, whose parents pay income taxes and whose money STAYS in the US, would have to pay out-of-state tuition. Where is the sense in this?
> 
> And that is the problem with offering free education to anyone who wants it. You will open the floodgates to students who are NOT motivated and have no desire to succeed, but will simply be there taking up university space because their government has taught them once again that they can do absolutely nothing and get something for free. And what the heck... if they manage to graduate but are still unemployable due to poor work ethics or personality problems, it's no big deal because the government will provide them with a welfare check. This is no way to address the problems we are facing as a nation. No, I don't feel that college should be available only to the rich, but I would never agree that it should be free. When students are taught early on that they must WORK for what they want in life, I feel that better character and work ethics are developed.
> 
> When a student has to pay for that education, then there is a lot more at stake in the outcome.


I 100% agree with the illegal immigration comments - oh and they wouldn't be coming to you from Oregon because Oregon voted in the same thing. I take it one step further - they SHOULDN'T be getting free elementary and secondary education either. That's still OUR tax dollars paying for it. Our classes are overloaded and there's not enough to go around as it is. It's time we had no taxes and a flat rate national sales tax...see how many illegals go home when they have to pay their share.

As for a "free university" education allowing everyone and all to go - that's incorrect. In the countries I know about you have to have a certain standard of education and have passed a number of quite challenging course exams to be able to get it. It's not available for just anyone - only those who have shown in their HS education that they deserve it.


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## maestoso (Aug 7, 2011)

As a teacher with consistently high performing students, I support unions. I'll leave it at that. I'm passionate about the field and have the experience and knowledge to back up what I say, because I have lived. Saying that you know a teacher or help students get financial aid so you are ready to debate this topic with an actual understanding of what it is and what it means is ridiculous. A child argues argues with little logic because in many cases they simply don't know, but they are usually stubborn enough to convince themselves that they do, and so they keep going. Because of this, it's almost impossible to win an argument with a child, and that's what is going on here. I'm off to do laundry, a far more valuable use of my time.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

maestoso said:


> As a teacher with consistently high performing students, I support unions. I'll leave it at that. I'm passionate about the field and have the experience and knowledge to back up what I say, because I have lived. Saying that you know a teacher or help students get financial aid so you are ready to debate this topic with an actual understanding of what it is and what it means is ridiculous. A child argues argues with little logic because in many cases they simply don't know, but they are usually stubborn enough to convince themselves that they do, and so they keep going. Because of this, it's almost impossible to win an argument with a child, and that's what is going on here. I'm off to do laundry, a far more valuable use of my time.


I'm sure you're as happy with their results as I am with my clients' results. Remember, the discussion wasn't actually about teachers but about the National Debt, Liberals, and Conservatives. Good luck with your logic and laundry pursuits.


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## weebiscuit (Aug 7, 2011)

ohmt said:


> While I love hearing your wonderful, cheerful stories Weebiscuit, not everyone has such an easy life as yours and your children's. In fact, most don't and that is NOT because they are daft, dumb, or lazy.
> 
> It is late and I might be sleep drunk and will probably regret this post tomorrow-for now I hope someone will understand there are people struggling who do NOT get everything for free. Who work hard for education and food. Stop making generalizations.


I will admit that maybe I'm simply "out of touch" with the reality of today's educational challenges. I graduated from college in 1976, and back then I didn't have my parent's money to help me. I went on my husband's teaching salary. Plus I carried 22 credits per semester so I wouldn't have to pay for an additional semester at the end. I had a job, scholarships, and worked 22 hours a week plus I had two pre schoolers. I got a student loan... a total of $2,400, which actually took me four years to pay off after graduation. I know things are different these days, just didn't realize how different.

All my kids had full scholarships, but only one took advantage of it, so I was one of those lucky parents who didn't have to pay for college educations. For the one son who was ROTC and received an engineering degree, our total expenses came to about $100 over four years, and that was in gas money traveling to visit him at school.

I still couldn't ever advocate a free college education to anyone and everyone. I feel that anything we get in this life is dearer and sweeter if earned and not given as a handout.

I would also like to address your statement about not everyone having such an "easy life" as mine. Yep... I have an easy life. NOW I have an easy life. We have a retirement income plus my husband has a social security income plus we have our own successful business. But let me reassure you that it was not always this easy.

After I graduated from college I couldn't find a teaching job the first few years, so I did a lot of substitute teaching... for $15 a day. I graduated in 1976 and in 1979 we sold our old farmhouse plus an acre of land for ten thousand MORE than we had paid for the old farmhouse and forty one acres of land in 1972, and began building a new house. When the house was half finished my husband lost his teaching job due to budget cuts. He taught Spanish and German. They were eliminated.

He couldn't find another job. We are in a very rural area. The next closest school was simply too far away and we didn't want to sell our land. So, we moved into our home, unfinished, and lived with a electric hot plate for a stove as we had none. We lived with sub flooring on the floors, and most of the rooms hadn't gotten the sheet rock on the walls, so there was no wall between the kitchen and the bathroom or between the kids' bedrooms, and by now we'd had a third child.

We were scraping by to make our house payments, but we would never have considered any type of welfare. Instead, we put ads in the local papers. We offered maple trees from our woods for sale. We'd dig them by hand and sell them for $10 each, or $15 if we had to plant them.

We planted a few acres in sweet corn, and had a stand on the side of the road, and made the kids all get up early in the morning and help pick corn and they had to sit there and sell it with us.

We went for ten mile walks down the roads with the kids.... picking up aluminum cans so we could turn them in for gas money. We took on lawn mowing jobs, and the oldest son also did lawn mowing. We hired ourselves out to help farmers make hay. I would buy a pound of cheap burger and get six hamburgers out of it. For "fun" we'd take the kids to old mine pits and we'd dig for quartz and fossils in the tailings from the mines, or we'd take them fishing. My husband and I wouldn't fish because we couldn't even afford a fishing license, but we'd take the kids because they didn't need one, and we'd bring the fish home to eat. We shot squirrels to put food on the table, and did everything we could think of to survive. This went on for three years, and then my husband was hired back where he taught before.

When my kids were growing up during those years we had one channel on our TV. One old Chevy Chevette my husband and I shared, and the kids didn't even have bikes until they got them for Christmas one year from their grandparents. But all during those years we never took a cent from the government. I sewed every single thing my kids wore. I even made my husband's suits for school! One year we were so poor that the only present our kids got for christmas was some stuffed dinosaur animals that I sewed for them, plus a few things the grandparents bought. (That's why I refuse to even own a sewing machine these days).

So, I've seen both sides of life. I much prefer THIS side, but my kids always tell everyone that while they were growing up life was very hard, but they always had love and they always had two parents there to support them with love. It wasn't until they were in high school that we finally started to pay off our debts and have the money to finish our house properly and feel things ease up.

And I honestly believe that the reason my kids are so successful today is because they had determination to never have to go through years like that again, and they never wanted their own kids to live like that. And, they were all taught at an early age that nothing comes easily, and life is often a struggle, but there is always a way to put food on the table, and anyone with enough determination and drive can succeed. It's simply up to the individual. It's NOT up to the government to provide for those who can't provide for themselves.

I will agree that in an economy such as today's, when our jobs are all being outsourced overseas because the companies can't compete with union demands in the US, there will be exceptions. Sometimes people do need help, but I have never believed in the cradle to grave welfare philosophy of the liberals. A helping hand, yes. A hand up, yes. But a complete hand OUT... No!


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## ohmt (Aug 7, 2011)

I'm glad you understand my 'sleep' outburst then Weebiscuit. My mother has also never asked for help and while she is doing okay now, back before she went to college was when it was the worst. You and my mother worked extremely hard for what you've got, but that's not just intelligence that gets you there, it's will power, strength...and maybe add a little touch of stubborn in there



Many people don't have that. After seeing her go through everything I can understand someone needing a little bit of help. As long as it IS a little bit and only until they are back on their feet. I know there are people who take advantage, but there are also some people who just need that little bit.

As you could tell, working out my college finances frustrates me to no end. Thank goodness there are advisors at the school to help me figure it all out. I am actually proud of myself for keeping my debt fairly low (I am not very good at financial planning). Grad school debt is what will pile up, but I don't mind if it gets me where I want to go.

Anyway, it sounds as though you are a great mother. I hope your children are proud and appreciate you.

Jill-the financial advisor close to my family actually shares most of your political views, I bet you two would be great friends. I know she has enough money saved that she is doing just fine. She has a part time job and is getting her bachelors at the moment and I think maybe enjoying a little down time with her kids both in college now. She'll have no problem getting a job once she gets done with school (in 3 weeks), she's just the type of person you want working for you. I like your thinking though-my dream is to have my own vet clinic. It'll take me a while, but i'll get there


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

I don't doubt that for a minute, Amanda, and I think you will be an outstanding vet!


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## tagalong (Aug 7, 2011)

> I think we need to work on addressing problems with solutions that make sense, not with solutions that are based on a conservative or liberal perspectives, for the sake of being conservative or liberal.


*YES. A thousand times YES. *



:yeah






But that will *never* happen as long as many cling to generalizations like this....







> LIBERALS - believe in government action to achieve equal opportunity and equality for all. It is the duty of the government to alleviate social ills and to protect civil liberties and individual and human rights. Believe the role of the government should be to guarantee that no one is in need.
> Liberal policies generally emphasize the need for the government to solve problems.
> 
> CONSERVATIVES - believe in personal responsibility, limited government, free markets, individual liberty, traditional American values and a strong national defense. Believe the role of government should be to provide people the freedom necessary to pursue their own goals.
> ...


Oddly enough, many people *Jill* would sneer at for being "liberal" according to her definitions (including me), also believe in personal responsibility, individual liberty, government not needing to see to everything, values, necessary defense, people being granted the freedom to achieve their own goals etc.

*Things are NOT as black and white as many with political tunnel vision always insist they are.* That kind of thinking gets us NOWHERE - as the ridiculous debt ceiling debate/stall tactics showed us. Only the extremes at either end might tend to follow those supposed "rules". *MOST of us are a mix* - _and there is far more __*gray*__ than black & white. _Anyone willing to take a step back from their rigid "definitions" can see that... and I sigh when people tell me that they "know" exactly how I think and what I believe in all while telling me I am wrong to beleive or think that way according to their "rules". Mainly because those who think they "know" that and tell me so are usually 99% wrong.

What this country needs is about 5 political parties - _and less of this rigid R or D or Conservative or Liberal nonsense_.... that accomplishes very little in the end.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

The liberal / conservative descriptions actually not my own definitions but what are held out widely as THE definitions. There are a few items regarding which I personally lean left so I understand clearly things are not cookie cutter. But about the things I am most passionate and feel are most important, there's no doubt which way I lean. Beats the heck out of being apathetic in my estimation. _*shrug*_

_ _

_http://www.studentne...iberal-beliefs/_


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## ohmt (Aug 7, 2011)

Thank you very much Jill, I appreciate it!


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## 2minis4us (Aug 7, 2011)

Personally I don't care what anyone reads, blogs, sees on TV, etc etc.... I think the debt crisis is a set up and was made to happen. It has NOTHING to do with who is President. It comes from the "Federal Reserve" and what ever bankers are manipulating them. Don't you think there are enough intelligent people in this country that could "fix it" ?

Who is going to speak up in lieu of being "taken care of " ??

Most people do not have a clue what is really going on.

It's a mess and God help us.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2011)

2minis4us said:


> Most people do not have a clue what is really going on.


You are absolutely right here.

We as a Nation are spending far more than we can support thus growing our debt faster and faster by the day. We need to make some serious cuts and stop growing our Government. There's very little that our government does as well as or as efficiently as the private (for profit) sector.

The above doesn't even factor in that no matter how you / we check the math, bigger government = smaller individuals.

Spending, and the  progressive political agenda of bigger and more powerful government, is really at the heart of this growing beast.


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## vickie gee (Aug 8, 2011)

here in Texas this has been Very Entertaining to read. I

work with people that cannot remember the last time they

voted (if ever) because they are too busy working overtime

and do not even realize it moved them from the 15% tax rate

to the 25% tax rate, or they voted democrat because their

daddy was a democrat, and their daddy's daddy was a

democrat, or they liked the way somebody talked with a

southern drawl (they don't really know what party was

represented), or he was black like they are and so the issues do not matter, or he was white and they don't want a black president, or a number of issues. Basically I am around people that stand for nothing! At least people here on this forum are passionate about something rather than having their head's stuck in the sand or up their posterior. I work with people that have never heard of 90% of the people who have announced that they are in the 2012 presidential race, people who have never heard of the debt ceiling, people who have never heard of Navy Seal Team 6, people who do not know or care to know who is in the president's cabinet, or what Congress is voting on. They look at it as "it is what it is." It is downright scary. So at least we can agree to disagree, beat each other up verbally, side with one another or whatever. I know that I will go to my grave defending what I believe in as a conservative/PATRIOT and as least the liberals believe in something although I agree with them absolutely NOT. It beats the heck out of the class of people who hear nothing, see nothing, speak nothing. I may not agree with everyone's opinions but at least it is comforting to know that opinions exists. Try being around people that can only say whut, do whut, who is that, I ain't never heard of them folks, no I ain't never care much for politics. It is like HeeHaw on steroids. Don't get me wrong. I grew up in the south. I was just like them in my 20's and I admit it. I ran on hormones more so than common sense and current events. But people need to wake up and pay attention. There is no excuse for tax paying adults to live like ostriches with their heads in the sand with no opinion or passion about what they believe in as Americans!


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## weebiscuit (Aug 8, 2011)

ohmt said:


> I'm glad you understand my 'sleep' outburst then Weebiscuit.


Yes, I do understand it. I could sense a great deal of frustration there. And I felt that maybe you were begrudging me just a bit because you thought I had it easy and didn't fully understand that you were going through some very trying and anxious times over your school finances. I just wanted you to know that your time, too, will come! I know it will, because you are choosing a good career, and I know you are the kind of person who will draw people to your clinic, so it will be a success. Behind every success story, however, are years of fears, tears, frustrations and doubts. In the end, though, it makes that success so sweet!

I don't consider myself and husband to be wealthy at all! but we are finally at a point in our lives where the mortgage is paid, we have no outstanding loans, we pay our credit card balance in full every month, have no car payments, and I don't have to stretch a stinkin' pound of burger into six hamburgers! It's just the two of us, so we can each eat a half pound if we want!



ohmt said:


> My mother has also never asked for help and while she is doing okay now, back before she went to college was when it was the worst. You and my mother worked extremely hard for what you've got, but that's not just intelligence that gets you there, it's will power, strength...and maybe add a little touch of stubborn in there
> 
> 
> 
> Many people don't have that. After seeing her go through everything I can understand someone needing a little bit of help. As long as it IS a little bit and only until they are back on their feet. I know there are people who take advantage, but there are also some people who just need that little bit.


When I said we never took welfare I wasn't *quite* honest. We took it for one day! Our two oldest kids were in grade school. My oldest son was very smart. He had an exceptionally high IQ, and because of that he really perceived things and internalized them where other kids would just blow them off an inconsequential. Well, our low income quallified out kids for free school lunches. Back in those days, those "free lunch" kids got a different colored lunch ticket than other kids did. Everyone knew they were "free lunchers." My husband and I decided that it would be a "good thing" for the kids to get a free school lunch as it would free up more of our scanty income for other dire necessities.

So, the very first day they go on the program, my son (I think he was in 4th grade), got his lunch tray and the Principal walked by his table, stopped at my son's side and said, "Why aren't you eating those peas?"

My son said, "Because I don't like peas."

The Principal said, "Beggars can't be choosers."

Of course my son was absolutely mortified and humiliated, and when he came home and told us this story I packed his and his brother's lunches the next day and we never took another free school lunch or anything else. I also called the administration at the school, and believe me, the Principal was disciplined for that statement, and starting the very next week (as told to me by a teacher friend in the school district), all free lunch tickets became the exact same color as the paid for tickets in the entire district, and all the accounting was handled in the office and a rule was passed that NO teacher or other administrator or aide were allowed to know which kids received school lunches. So at least something good came out of that.



ohmt said:


> As you could tell, working out my college finances frustrates me to no end. Thank goodness there are advisors at the school to help me figure it all out. I am actually proud of myself for keeping my debt fairly low (I am not very good at financial planning). Grad school debt is what will pile up, but I don't mind if it gets me where I want to go. Anyway, it sounds as though you are a great mother. I hope your children are proud and appreciate you.


I hope that perhaps you can find a job in a vet clinic and still go to grad school at the same time, and the job will help finance school. On the other hand, I know that grad school will be difficult and perhaps a job will be out of the question. I sincerely hope you reach your goals. Just don't ever give up because things may seem bleak at times. Always remember that each hurdle jumped is one step closer to your goal. And I know you will achieve it!


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## weebiscuit (Aug 8, 2011)

vickie gee said:


> But people need to wake up and pay attention. There is no excuse for tax paying adults to live like ostriches with their heads in the sand with no opinion or passion about what they believe in as Americans!


That was a very good post, vickie! (geeze... you must have a kind of depressing job, though).

But it really is so very sad that too many people who vote, SHOULDN'T! I've always wondered why it was easier to vote than to get a fishing license. And I just get so angry when over and over again I'll run into someone in town who absolutely hates our governor and rants on and on about him and I'll say, "I take it you didn't vote for him then?" And they'll respond, "Heck no... I don't vote. Why waste my time? Nothing ever changes."

Then there's my neighbor from a mile down the road, who is a carpenter. We always hire him when we need something done, and we'll start talking about politics and he'll be so angry about something, but because he's a Jehovah's Witness he never votes, so I always tell him, "Mike... if you're not going to vote, then you don't get to complain!"

I, too, think it's wonderful when people disagree, because at least it shows they have a brain in their heads and care passionately about their country and the direction it's heading. We might not all think the same way about that direction but at least we are passionate about it!


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## ohmt (Aug 9, 2011)

Ahhh thank you Weebiscuit



My goal is not to be wealthy, but to have a job that I can be excited to go to every day and not have to live paycheck to paycheck (fun fact: the average vet makes about $40,000 as a starting salary coming out of school with an average of $100,000 in debt). I will get there and i'm not worried, and despite being frustrated sometimes, I do just fine working and going to school. It gets a bit stressful, but I know it won't always be this way and i'm willing to sacrifice a few years of stress to reach my goals. For grad school I am not sure if i'll time to work, but they are much more generous with financial aid so hopefully I can get a little weekend job and that will suffice. We'll see-i try not to worry about things that far ahead. I know i'll get by though





As for the free lunch-how awful of that principle! I remember being horrified going to school in huge hand-me down clothes, and now it seems so silly. I actually LOVE hand me down clothes-there's nothing like a best friend with awesome fashion sense and a clothes shopping addiction


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## weebiscuit (Aug 10, 2011)

Amanda, believe it or not, but I buy at least 70% of my clothes at Good Will! We are in a very rural area. Just a WalMart and a JC Penneys which I think is about the same size as my house, LOL. It's just tiny. But we have a huge, new Good Will store and I love shopping there! Instead of racks of the same thing, there are racks of everything different! I'm just not a clothes horse, anyway, so it works for me.

And my mini van is 13 years old. Yes, I can afford a new car, but does that mean I should get one? My van doesn't give me any problems at all, and there's no rust on it, so why should I trade it in? And my husband's truck is ten years old. Still in great shape, still no rust.

We each have our own Honda scooters.. we bought them new and they are ten years old now. Why bother getting new ones when they run perfectly?

I'm just a very economical person and I don't like flashy, ostentatious things. I still wear the same plain gold wedding band I got 40 years ago and no other jewelry but an occasional small pair of gold earrings if I am forced to get fancy.

I am feeling very badly now, as Jill's excellent thread has been hijacked. My apologies, Jill. No more "off subjects" posts on this thread from me!


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