# License To Carry / Concealed Weapons Permit (POLL)



## Jill (May 1, 2012)

I'm interested to see the poll results, and also to read remarks on the topic. Thanks!


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## Margo_C-T (May 1, 2012)

I don't have one, but think I would like to, eventually.

Consider it a matter of personal safety.

Margo


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## Davie (May 1, 2012)

I've had a concealed permit since 2009, can carry derringers, revolvers, and semi-automatics. I travel a lot by myself and a lot with the horses.

Reason I got mine was had a tire start to separate and was on the side of the turnpike at a rest area waiting for the tow truck and two truck pulled in with a bunch of guys--made me very uncomfortable and made me think what would I do if they headed toward me. Got home and signed up for the next available class. Pretty good shot with an semi-automatic but never have got the hang of a revolver--with the double pull hammer I can't hit the broadside of the barn door.

OK is almost ready to pass an "OPEN" carry law and I'll be taking advange of that also--lots of folks worried about the increase in crime -- criminals are carrying guns no matter concealed or not so doubt if it makes a difference at all.

I'm a patron of a jewerly store that the owner as a Permit to "OPEN" carry within the store and he does--never been robbed to date -- I'd sure hate to try that is for sure --seeing that thing strapped to his hip.


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## Minimor (May 1, 2012)

I voted no, only because here we are not allowed to carry weapons. If the law allowed for it, yes, I most certainly would have a gun on my person (or at least in my purse). The criminals carry their guns around but the rest of us are not allowed to.


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## Sonya (May 1, 2012)

I do. MI has an open carry law, but very few open carry....it is known if you open carry be prepared to get harrassed by the police which is very unfortunate.


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## HGFarm (May 1, 2012)

I have never felt the need to obtain one... AZ is an open carry state.


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## ohmt (May 1, 2012)

My boyfriend is getting his license to open carry and I've already told him I will not go anywhere with him if he's carrying it. I'll go with him to the range and in a car it's fine, but out in public, no, and some of the people that I've talked to that WILL be doing so just make me plain nervous.

Now Davie's story of the gentleman in his jewelry store open carrying his gun is a case that I am absolutely fine with. Good for him.


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## Sonya (May 1, 2012)

Why would you not go with a friend if they were legally carrying? Obviously they have taken the safety class and 'should' be proficient and responsible. Just curious as to why. I do know most people who have no experience with guns are afraid of them, as they should be. I grew up with guns my whole life as my father was a gunsmith and the shop manager of a barrel plant and he perfected the rifled shotgun barrel. As a child it was not unusual to have a couple hundred guns in our house, some loaded....they were stacked in corners everywhere. As a teenager I was able to load/unload/take apart almost any gun in front of me. I have the upmost respect for guns and feel confident/safe handling them.


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## ohmt (May 1, 2012)

I have experience with guns-have used them plenty and I am also confident when handling them. I just feel that it is unnecessary to have them out in public and can't help how I feel




This is Fargo, ND-where people leave their cars running in the grocery store parking lots while they shop and doors to houses are never locked. He doesn't want to carry the gun in public for safety, he wants to just because he can and I don't play that game.


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## candycar (May 1, 2012)

I have the cc license, but hardly ever carry, just one more thing to weigh down the purse LOL! I'm usually with hubby, and he always carrys.


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## Sonya (May 1, 2012)

I can respect that ohmt since he isn't carrying for the right reason...no where is safe these days though, even Fargo : http://kstp.com/news/stories/s2443778.shtml


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## Miniv (May 1, 2012)

Don't have one, but don't have a problem with anyone who does. We own a couple of hunting guns and I am planning on getting a handgun soon, but will keep it at the house.


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## Jill (May 1, 2012)

I'm finding the replies interesting so far





Personally, I've sometimes thought that carrying open is a better idea, but have not ever done it. Open carry is legal in VA, and I've thought it's more of a deterent if people see I have it than if it's in my purse, but I've never carried open. I haven't ever noticed anyone else doing so, either, but I'm sure some do (I've not set out to look for it ever). I think if you are trained and comfortable, or can take steps to become comfortable / competent, it's a great equalizer when it comes to personal safety.

It first became strongly interesting to me years ago being a money manager and sometimes leaving the office late. You never know what some people think. I've worried people may think I have a cash vault. Plus all the other reasons a person should be concerned about her (or his) own safetly.

Along the same lines, I try to be safe and limit exposure to physical threats. Things like always get gas during the day time, I do not go to the stores alone after dark, alarm systems at home and office, watch dog, lock my car doors as soon as I get in, house door as soon as I'm through.


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## vickie gee (May 1, 2012)

I need to get one. I used to carry a BB air pistol under my car seat so that if I ever had car trouble and the wrong person came along while I was stranded I could send them packing. Pretty dumb logic...but back then I probably would have shot and asked questions later. One day on interstate a couple of smartypants guys kept getting along beside me and slowing down to my speed and if I went around them they would pass me again and slow down again and get beside me again laughing the whole time. We just happened to take the same exit and ended up at beside each other in a two lane near the college and both of our vehciles had to stop at the redlight. I reached under the seat and grabbed the gun and slammed it up on the dash and looked at them like a crazed person. Their smirks turned to panic and they ran the redlight!

I respect guns and I am an excellent shot. I have just always feared that I might react too quickly...ex-husband used to break into my home and he was violent. I kept an unloaded gun between the mattress and box springs. The shells were nearby but at least I would have to take the time to load before I resorted to...(what I don't like to think about). I think I am probably "mature" enough to carry one now and in this day and time there is for sure a need to protect oneself. A couple of years ago we had a local dentist gunned down in cold blood at the local carwash...probably for a few dollars. Nobody was caught. Which, this reminds me that I at least need to put some pepper spray in my purse/auto for now.

Back during my soul searching days I used to take my yellow lab out and we would hike all day and then tent camp. I always had my little single shot 410 in the tent with me. Sadly, I found out the firing pin was broken one day. I will never know when that happened. I guess I could have beat an intruder with the stock and sicked the dog on him. Lol.


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## Jill (May 2, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> I need to get one. I used to carry a BB air pistol under my car seat so that if I ever had car trouble and the wrong person came along while I was stranded I could send them packing. Pretty dumb logic...but back then I probably would have shot and asked questions later. One day on interstate a couple of smartypants guys kept getting along beside me and slowing down to my speed and if I went around them they would pass me again and slow down again and get beside me again laughing the whole time. We just happened to take the same exit and ended up at beside each other in a two lane near the college and both of our vehciles had to stop at the redlight. I reached under the seat and grabbed the gun and slammed it up on the dash and looked at them like a crazed person. Their smirks turned to panic and they ran the redlight!


WTG -- I love it


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## Field-of-Dreams (May 2, 2012)

Jill said:


> WTG -- I love it


SO DO I!!! Awesomeness! I bet they didn't do THAT again!


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## Carolyn R (May 3, 2012)

I did have one when I was younger, but when I had kids I let it lapse. Just didn't feel comfortable potentially having a gun laying in my purse or car with the kids. However, I have no issues with guns what so ever. My husband is an avid hunter, we teach our kids gun safety (14 and 8 ) and target practice with low caliber guns with them, I feel that teaching them a healthy respect for guns is important, not so they fear them, but so they comprehend the damage they can inflict. Since that wasn't an option I didn't vote.


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

Carolyn, I hadn't considered that as a possibility. What you said makes sense and I modified the response options. Thanks for chiming in and that heads up!


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## MountainWoman (May 3, 2012)

Hmm, I don't have a gun, don't have any plans to get one either. I know if I had one I'd end up shooting myself. I also don't think I could ever shoot anyone. Can't even bring myself to eat animals so doubt I could use a gun. Nothing against people who have them though. To each his own. I guess I'm one of those old hippie pacifists.


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## minie812 (May 3, 2012)

Hubby and I are signing up over the summer when he is on shutdown at work. I have been an outdoor woman since I was a wee one...lol. Hunted with my Dad starting at 6 yrs old and he made me go to the local Police station one summer to learn how to properly handle -clean & shoot a weapon. I ended up going every saturday morning for $2.00 you could target practice that included the price of the bullets.(seriously can you imagine being able to do that now)We live between two correctional facilitys one is in El Dorado and one minimum security in Winfield. There have been escapes and walk offs at both & with that said...I am glad I know how to use one



.


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## andi (May 3, 2012)

I am terrified of the things. LOL I moved to texas a couple years ago, submerged in the "culture", and it sure hasn't helped. LOL In my life experiance, I can not think of a situation I have been in or any one I have known personally has been in, where having a gun would have been neccesary. I can think of a few, where if a gun had been present, something impulsive and irreversable may have happened. I am not at all for taking away anyones rights to own or carry, but strongly disagree that it is a neccesity for as large a % of the population as the pro-gun people make it out to seem.

I really do find your story Vicki entertaining, and I am sure, knowing you, you wouldn't abuse or missuse. At the same time, these are my thoughts from a totally conversational pro/anti gun debate. While that gun served it's purpose, it could have really ended badly. Either A, you overeacted and they were just idiot kids, they needed a good screaming at or even a complaint filed, or B, you were right to be afraid and it was a dangerous situation, and in that circumstance, they most likely would have shot you when they saw that gun, again not a solution. I think in the end you were lucky it was just idiots and that you had just one-up'd them on the intimidation factor.


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## Jill (May 3, 2012)

minie812 said:


> Hubby and I are signing up over the summer when he is on shutdown at work. I have been an outdoor woman since I was a wee one...lol. Hunted with my Dad starting at 6 yrs old and he made me go to the local Police station one summer to learn how to properly handle -clean & shoot a weapon. I ended up going every saturday morning for $2.00 you could target practice that included the price of the bullets.(seriously can you imagine being able to do that now)We live between two correctional facilitys one is in El Dorado and one minimum security in Winfield. There have been escapes and walk offs at both & with that said...I am glad I know how to use one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WTG





ETA:

“Guns are our friends because in a country without guns, I'm what's known as "prey." All females are.”

-- Ann Coulter
​


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## Nathan Luszcz (May 4, 2012)

Brandishing a weapon without cause is reason for being arrested, in most areas. Someone sitting in a car next to you is NOT justification. Unless they flash a gun of their own, you have no reasonable fear for your life. You can be nervous all you want, but fear? No. Nerves aren't justification for deadly force. Pulling a weapon is the same as shooting one, in many places. And it doesn't matter if its a toy gun (or BB) or a 45, they are all equal when it comes to brandishing. Those kids could have and should have reported you.

Also, having a weapon in a car, even a BB, that is concealed, is a felony in most states unless you have a permit. KY is fortunate in that having a weapon in the glove box, even loaded, is not considered concealed as long as you declare it in a traffic stop.

Yes, I have a permit and carry everywhere.

Do not support open carry, btw. Showing off a weapon is reason enough to frighten most people, and that's not fair to the majority who see it that are perfectly law abiding. Is that fear justified? No, but tell that to those who are made nervous/fearful because of it



Its easy enough to bear it without drawing should someone threaten you. And if they threaten with deadly force, easy enough to draw and fire.


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## Jill (May 4, 2012)

Well, you know... when guns are outlawed, only the outlaws have guns. I'm very happy to have the ability to legally protect myself against those for whom laws lend no deterrence. I'm also proud to have taken ownership of that ability.


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## andi (May 4, 2012)

As I mentioned before, I fully support people having the freedom to own and carry guns. I support that because I do not believe in taking away anyones rights, freedom to the fullest extent reasonable.

Something people should think about though, and this is about using catchy slogans and bumperstickers as the base of your defence, is you will get more people agreeing with you and supporting you if you respect them enough to explain your thoughts. For example, if I was "moved" by the statement, "when guns are outlawed, only outlaws have guns", my support would be on very shaky ground. The moment my supporters realize how unvaluable and sensless that logo is you have lost my support. For example, there are plenty of things that are illegal, that outlaws "get to do", that you can't. Making things legal, on the simple bases to make things "fair" and level the playing field is rediculous. For example, when murder is outlawed, only the outlaws murder. Well that isn't fair, we should go back to eye for an eye, legalize the retaliation. Doesnt really make sense.

But if you gain my support on the idea of freedom and justice and explaining that those rights are at the very root of gun ownership, then you have a much more loyal follower.


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## Sonya (May 4, 2012)

Oh man....here we go again, James why do you attack everything she says? You must be bored to pieces. Yes, she used a slogan which I am sure everyone has heard before. After the slogan, in her own words she explained why she used the slogan. And I don't think Jill's purpose with this thread is try to make those who are anti-gun suddenly do an about face and join the NRA...geez!


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## vickie gee (May 4, 2012)

Forgot to vote so I went back and put in my NO. BTW the story I told happened a long time ago and I admit that I was certainly less mature then. I likely would have deserved a lecture back then that causing them to run the redlight was very dangerous and stupid (especially since they were pulling a low boy trailer). I am glad nobody got hurt. They were not youths. They were grown men older than I was at the time. Not sure if they were trying to be bullies or flirt. If it happened again no doubt I would be able to just ignore their antics to try get me to notice them.


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## Jill (May 4, 2012)

Thanks, Sonya. It's pretty hard to not notice that someone has taken a real shine to reading my every posted word on LB.


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## andi (May 4, 2012)

Sonya I am going to try very hard to not be as insulted as you inteded to make me feel. I am sorry that my disagreements with Slogans and bumpersticker politics offend you on such a personal level. I would never dare try to dimish and belittle your opinion by assuming the only reason you speak is to alleviate some sort of sad bordem, I would genuinly appreciate it if you did the same.

Vicki, I think your wonderful. I know that me responding to your story and pretty much "using" you as an example of why a gun is not always a solution could be easily missunderstood as a personal attack. I am very releived that you were willing to listen and respond, and furthermor, understand where I was coming from.

This topic was started by Jill to discuss having a liscense to carry. Before I got involved it was already a discussion about that and multiple people had voiced their opinions about whether it is right or wrong. My first involvment was to voice my opinion, which was agreeing with permitting guns, and respond to Vicki. It was not just to fight with Jill.

It does frustrate me when people start topics under the guise of promoting an open discussion, only to dismiss those who disagree with them with slogans, bumperstickers and let me also add, sense you have garnered my attention, feer mongering. I'll give you an example, you know I dont like to speak without having backup.



We have Amanda, who says she feels safe in her own town, people leave there cars running, she is comfortable without a gun. You put up a link to prove that she isn't safe. She lives there! I am sorry but Amanda has to be considered the authority on how safe she feels in her own town! A horrible attempt at scaring someone into gun ownership.

As far as the slogan goes. The entire point that slogan makes is, if something violent is made illegal then criminals can hurt the people who follow the law and the law abiding citizen can't do anything about it. Put guns, murder, domestic violance, anything into those paramaters. It makes no sense. There are plenty of dangerous things that are illegal, that criminals do anyways, that "we" can't. That slogan, in it self, carries no validity other than sounding catchy.

Finally Jill, I always do, every single line, every single time, and will always reply if I have an opinion on the topic.



I am still trying to understand how I am a bad person for doing that?


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## Sonya (May 4, 2012)

I also told Amanda I respect her reasons for not wanted to go somewhere with her friend while carrying....and no town is totally safe today, hence my link....I also live in a tiny out of way town but still lock my doors, etc, and hope everyone else does too.

James you in no way insulted me so no need to worry about that



.


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## andi (May 4, 2012)

Sonya, what I don't understand is how you came across this knowledge that no town is safe? Specifically, you brought it up in response to someone saying, I feel safe enough in my town to not need a gun, your intention was to change this persons mind. To make them aware of an opposing reality, no, your town doesn't meet that level of safety. I just find it very hard to understand how anyone can know how safe or unsafe everysingle part of the country is? To feel this way you have to be at some level, just making an assumption. I will probably regret it, but I dont mind admitting, I can't remember the last time I slept in a house with a locked door. Right now, at this moment, my only need to start locking it is less about the "crazy texans" with guns who live around here and more about the mini horse owners that are reading this. LOL I also can't begin to count the number of times I have left my vehicle on while running into a store, not on purpose, and had a panic attack when I can't find my keys in my pocket! Keep in mind I drive an extremely loud duelly, that I am usually standing right next to when I come out of the store as I search for my keys. LOL Call me ignorant or naive, but I would imagine if a mathmatician looked at the numbers, for many parts of the country, of car thefts and random acts of violance etc, it would be considered a waste of time to worry about these sorts of things to the extent we are often convinced we should.


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## Sonya (May 4, 2012)

I do not feel any town is totally safe, unfortunately...and believe it or not I did research Fargo years ago when we were almost transferred there. I don't care about my car, that is just a 'thing'. But I do lock my doors when I'm in it and my home doors are locked at night...always. And unless you've ever been a victim of a crime then I guess it's something you would not understand. I have been a victim and intend to never be again. I urge every one, no matter where you live/drive to lock your home doors at night and your car when you are in it. Its not paranoia it's just adding a little layer of safety. And if you want, go get a gun, it's your right in this country.


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## andi (May 4, 2012)

I can't say I disagree with anything that you have shifted the focus too and won't bother trying to simplify it by showing how far it has went from the original point you were making to Amanda. 

All in all, these discussions really seem to reestablish and support the stereotype I have been hearing about Liberals vs. Conservatives. The idea that while Liberals agree with Liberals, and Conservatives agree with Conservatives, they go about it very differently. Liberals have open conversations with one another about why they feel the way they do, more focus on the motives and thought process behind their beliefs, which can lead to disagreements, which could to some seem like a waste of time. Conservatives just play nice the whole time, don't delve an deeper, don't risk offending someone and losing their support, at the end of the day, conservatives just want another person to join their side to get a majority and get control. Style over substance, it works for almost everything nowadays ...


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## Danielle_E. (May 4, 2012)

Another interesting topic and one I have never been able to understand or wrap my head around. The mentality that revolves around this entire issue. I understand that Americans feel that their rights would be violated if you weren't allowed your guns. I would rather not have that right. There are too many stories coming out of the US with kids getting a hold of a gun and killing classmates and teachers. I don't want to worry daily that my grandaughter could face something like that nor do I want HER worrying about something so terrible. The recent Florida case is another example. I know you are going to say "well I needit to protect myself from the ones carrying a gun illegally". There have been just too many cases of also innocent people being shot by over zealous and out of control individuals. I hope that Canada never goes this route. I want to continue feeling safe in my surrounding and not becoming paranoid and so worried on having to defend myself because anyone could be out to get you. We do not lock our doors at home unless we are out, otherwise night or day, when home, the doors are never locked and I feel very secure. I do however worry about guns crossing from the US into Canada or from international waters, Asia, via Vancouver. Canada needs more and better border control to stop guns coming into my country. Those that want guns to hunt game with I have no problems with because they aren't the type of guns a criminal could conceal.


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## minie812 (May 4, 2012)

I wish I could say I feel safe even living in rural Kansas. One of our neighbors is a sheriff deputy the other is a convicted felon who just got out of prison for the second time. There was a big drug bust that involved several of the smaller towns in our area that over several months went down with many arrests. Meth-cocaine-pot so to say I feel safe...NOT! Even with a cop living around the corner 1 mile from me. I lock my doors at night and we have guns in our house. Crime happens everywhere now and no area is immune to it and a criminal will kill for no reason. The key is educating yourself on the proper use of a firearm.


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## andi (May 4, 2012)

Danielle,

For me personally, the biggest reason to allow this freedom is that by doing so inflicts no harm on another human being. If someone wants to own a gun, that ownership is no threat to me and my freedom. Now, if that person decides to harm me, be it with a gun, a bow and arrow, a plastic bag, or just happens to attack me on one of my "off days" LOL, that person needs to be held accountable by the law. I honestly don't think the added guns in the population, due to them being legal, make it any more "scary" here in America. Also, if you look at the numbers above, and keep in mind this is a relatively conservative group, only 7 out of 32 voters have a gun license, nationally I would imagine it is much lower. So in reality, very little chance of walking down the street and notice granny is packin'. I think the added "scare" is the result of the aforementioned "fear mongering", it is actually a double edged sword. Yes, it scares some people into thinking they "need" a gun, while it scares other people into thinking they need to be outlawed. 

One thing I would be interested in researching is the supposed increase in violence nationwide. My thought is, we all hear people say it, how much safer it used to be. This is said to explain how guns are now more needed, like our Society as a whole has become a more dangerous place. Does anyone know if this is actually proven? If so, I think we all need to focus on what is causing this change, if it truly is a nationwide issue, not just on arming ourselves against each other.


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## KanoasDestiny (May 5, 2012)

I am all for people owning guns to protect their homes. However, I can tell from the responses here that most posters do not live in a gang infested area. Living in Southern California, I shutter to think what crime would be like if the low lives here were allowed to legally carry loaded weapons on them, concealed or not. It may be fine in a back country area where hunting is the main sport, but in high crime areas where drugs and gangs rule the streets, I would freak out to see large groups of men in the street flashing their guns in their waistbands for all to see.

We were in a bank not too long ago and we saw a man who moved his shirt and obviously had a gun in his waistband. This man was not a gangmember, but an older gentleman who could have very well been an undercover officer. But we told the security guard what we saw and he watched the man closely. The thought of being around people who I know are carrying a gun terrifies me, especially if I don't know what their intentions are. I understand the need to feel like you can scare someone into not messing with you, and to feel like you are capable of defending yourself, but just think about how the people who don't know why you have it in a bank or liquor store feel. Like I said, in an area that doesn't have high crime, this may not be as big of a fear.

In the mid 90s, we had a robbery at our local McDonalds. My friend was a cashier there and a gunman held a gun to him ordering him to get the manager. The man got the money he was after and on his way out, an off duty officer noticed the gun in this man's hand. The officer pulled his weapon and approached the man. They started firing at one another, and the robber was killed, as was a 7 year old girl who was caught in the crossfire. Now, if the officer would have allowed the robber to leave the building before approaching him, that girl would still be alive. I understand the officer's need to 'protect the people', but the robber was leaving without hurting anyone. I feel the officer could have handled the situation differently but because he had a gun at his disposal, he re-acted without taking the general public's safety into account. It's my belief that a lot of people react, and ask questions later.


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## Sonya (May 5, 2012)

James said: (I can't get the quotes to work)

*I just find it very hard to understand how anyone can know how safe or unsafe everysingle part of the country is? To feel this way you have to be at some level, just making an assumption. I will probably regret it, but I dont mind admitting, I can't remember the last time I slept in a house with a locked door. Right now, at this moment, my only need to start locking it is less about the "crazy texans" with guns who live around here and more about the mini horse owners that are reading this. LOL I also can't begin to count the number of times I have left my vehicle on while running into a store, not on purpose, and had a panic attack when I can't find my keys in my pocket! Keep in mind I drive an extremely loud duelly, that I am usually standing right next to when I come out of the store as I search for my keys. LOL Call me ignorant or naive, but I would imagine if a mathmatician looked at the numbers, for many parts of the country, of car thefts and random acts of violance etc, it would be considered a waste of time to worry about these sorts of things to the extent we are often convinced we should.*

*I can't say I disagree with anything that you have shifted the focus too and won't bother trying to simplify it by showing how far it has went from the original point you were making to Amanda. *

James...afraid I did not shift the focus, you did with your long paragraph on how you don't understand how someone can not feel safe with your story about your car, etc...and I addressed that with my response on why I don't feel safe.

Funny, I don't recall conservative vs. liberal being brought up on this topic until you just did.


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## Jill (May 5, 2012)

I agree with, or can see, the points that many if you have made here.

I am by nature safety conscious. We lock our doors, we have an alarm system, we have several means of protection.

When it comes to locking your doors, I can't understand why somebody would take this most basic step. I mean really, what's the downside?

I started this thread because I was curious to see the responses. Also, if someone was contemplating getting a license to carry, I hoped this might further inspire them to do so.


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## andi (May 5, 2012)

Sonya, 

My "long paragraph" about locking my house and car were in direct response to the very first post by Amanda, where she used that example to explain the level of safety she felt in Fargo, and also in response to your opinion on the level of safety you feel by your need to lock cars and homes. So it was not at all to shift focus. It was being used to explain how we all feel about our safety level, which is what we have been disagreeing about. Your last response, that I considered purposely shifting the focus, included a number of statements that no one would disagree with, making you appear "right", but that have no bearing on whether or not you can better judge how safe Amanda should feel in her town, which was the original idea I was questioning. Those comments, about the feeling of being a victim, that cars are just material objects, that nowhere is TOTALLY safe, that locking doors is a good idea, inferring that I might call you a liar about researching Fargo; no matter how true those statement, they have no bearing on if you have a better understanding of how safe a town is than the person living there. They seemed to be added to just be able to make some points that nobody would disagree with, whether or not they were applicable. 

I guess the alternative is that your last post, that I considered shifting focus, was actually in no way in reply to our previous conversation, so it is understandable that it appeared to be shifting focus, because it wasn't meant to be focused on our previous conversation at all. 

My added thoughts about Liberal vs Conservative were very clearly a separate thought, I replied to our conversation first, and then specified that the following thoughts were about recent conversations in general, not about the specific details we were discussing. My intention of making a different valid point, about something unrelated was not with the intent of hoping that it would make me "right" in the other topic.


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## Sonya (May 5, 2012)

Oy, thats all I can say at this point....you certainly make a habit to dissect others coments and turn them into what you want them to be, just so you have something to argue about....have fun with that, I am sure it is tiring.


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## Jill (May 5, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I really find it sad that some people in the U.S. do not feel safe unless they are walking around in paranoia with a loaded gun.. and hope it is not getting contagious.. I feel it makes things MORE dangerous out there for the average citizen..
> 
> By the looks of this poll.. it makes me feel more safe when I travel back home to the U.S... which I am doing next week for a wedding.. near downtown Detroit.. without a gun.


*Downtown Detroit*, huh? Good thing the gangs there are unarmed (not). Some perspectives just boggle my mind






... Regardless, I hope you have a great trip and of course, a safe one.


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## Jill (May 5, 2012)

PS Detroit has rampant gang activity and one of the highest violent crime rates in the Nation, and it's not the people who legally carry that are behind the city's statistics.

See: FBI: Detroit's violent crime rate second-highest in nation


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## Sonya (May 5, 2012)

Hopefully the water will all be dried up by next week for your trip, we had horrific storms here Thursday and parts of I75 and 69 were flooded and closed. I had lakefront property for a couple days. There are some nice areas on the way outskirts of Detroit, but downtown is very rough, as in lots of major cities....I think Flint is even worse these days and it's not that big.


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## Jill (May 5, 2012)

Mary Lou, I didn't voice an opinion on all of Detroit, or really ANY opinion (just a fact, Jack).

Detroit has the 2nd highest violent crime rate in the Nation. Downtown Detroit was specifically mentioned and is highly violent. It's not information or knowledge I pulled out of the air.	And, yes, Sonya, Flint did "beat" Detroit in the contest of most violent cities in the USA.

We get to make our own choices in this Nation when it comes to gun ownership. From my perspective -- partly because I am trained, comfortable and responsible -- I don't find a personal downside to having the ability to protect myself. Of course, I hope I never have to. However, if I'm in the wrong situation, I will be thankful that I have taken the steps to empower myself in the way that I have. Moreover, on a day to day basis, I like the peace of mind it grants me.


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## Minimor (May 5, 2012)

I have to say that I do not "get" the Canadian aversion to guns.

I live in a neighborhood that is relatively safe. We have some odd things go one out here from time to time...things that do make me nervous...but all in all it is still safe. I can walk down the road after dark on any given night & feel quite safe, I can start my truck on a cold morning & leave it running while I get ready for work & feel quite sure that no one is going to steal it while I'm in the house, if I forget to lock the door at night it's no big deal because it's not likely anyone is going to try and come in. I would still like to be able to have a gun at hand--just in case. An RCMP officer....who does not feel it is "safe" out here...agreed with me once that a gun would be a good thing.

In the city--just 10 miles away--it is different. In the city I would not feel safe walking outside after dark. Sometimes I don't feel safe walking down the street in the middle of the day. One does not leave their car running & unattended in the city. One does not leave the door unlocked in the city, not even during the day when you're home or if you're in the back yard. It's been proven over and over again that these things are not safe in this city and I am glad that I don't live there. Unfortunately all it takes is for the wrong person to move out to this area and then bad people will be here too.

The criminals do not live by the gun control laws of this country. If the criminals do not abide by the laws then I am of the opinion that the laws should be changed so that the rest of us can be at less of a disadvantage if we want to be.

In response to an earlier post about a 7 year old girl getting killed in the crossfire between a police officer and a robber--the thing is if the officer had waited for the robber to leave the store, the life of that little girl would have been spared but there is no telling who else might have been killed or injured--a person in a passing car could have been shot, or someone out on the street or in the parking lot. One cannot say how it would have turned out. I'm not sure the officer was reacting because he had a gun....or because he was a police officer & was responding the way that he had been trained to do.


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## Jill (May 5, 2012)

A little late for sure, but I modified the poll to add two additional choices that I should have probably included from the start


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## Minimor (May 5, 2012)

Thanks Jill I changed my vote from the original "no" to the last option that you just added.


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## Minimor (May 5, 2012)

ML is correct we can get a license for a long gun easy enough..but this thread is about concealed carry and handguns...it's frowned upon for us to stash a ..22 under the truck seat when we go to town and even in the house... with the law requiring that a gun being unloaded and locked up, with the ammo stored elsewhere in the house any gun properly stored is rather useless as protection against a home intruder unless he's very noisy and slow at gaining entry to the house. Sorry, I would like to have the right to have a handgun here, and to have it with me whether I'm at home or in town.


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## Sonya (May 5, 2012)

How does it work in Canada to obtain a license for a rifle? Do they do backround checks, etc?


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## vickie gee (May 5, 2012)

Changed my vote also.


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## Danielle_E. (May 5, 2012)

Hey Mary Lou. Found an interesting site for you to take a look at. Seems downtown Detroit is the hub of shootings. I think this site you could check out a lot of other cities as well.

http://spotcrime.com/mi/detroit


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## Danielle_E. (May 5, 2012)

Here Sonya, to answer your question.

Individuals who wish to possess or acquire firearms in Canada must have a valid possession-acquisition, or possession-only, licence (PAL/POL); either of these licences allows the licensee to purchase ammunition. The PAL is distributed exclusively by the RCMP and is generally obtained in the following three steps:

Safety training: To be eligible to receive a PAL, all applicants must successfully complete the Canadian Firearms Safety Course[16] (CFSC) for a non-restricted licence, and the Canadian Restricted Firearms Safety Course[17] (CRFSC) for a restricted licence; the non-restricted class is a prerequisite to the restricted licence. The RCMP publishes information on the locations and availability of these courses.[18]

Applying for a licence: Currently only one type of licence is available to new applicants, the possession-acquisition licence (PAL). People can request a PAL by filling out Form CAFC 921.[19]

Security screening: Background checks and investigations are performed. All applicants are screened, and a mandatory 28-day waiting period is imposed on first-time applicants, but response time may be longer.[20]

Licences are typically valid for five years and must be renewed prior to expiry to maintain all classes. Once licensed, an individual can apply for a firearm transfer;[21] and an authorization to transport[22] (ATT) for restricted firearms.

(Note: People may hunt with firearms in Canada only with non-restricted firearms. This requires an additional "Hunting with Firearms" course)


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## Sonya (May 5, 2012)

Thankyou Danielle for the info....so once you meet all the requirements for the license you can then go purchase as many rifles you want or do you have to go through a screening each time you make a purchase?


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## andi (May 5, 2012)

Hey Mary Lou,

I really do hope that you will be able to sleep when you get here, it may be tough with the picture being painted. Here are some more numbers for you.

Chicago has a population of just under 1,000,000 people, plus 15.9 million visitors per year, so lets say about 1 Million people per day walking the streets. 

For the last three years there have been 300-366 deaths per year, so to keep it simple, and judge high, lets say 365, 1 Death Per Day. 

That means with these number, your chance of being shot each day is literally, 1 in a Million.

In addition, over 85% of the these deaths happen to African Americans and over 85% of these deaths happen to men. So from the very start, you only have a 15% chance of even being that 1 in a Million person who gets shot, versus men and african americans have an 85 % chance. I am not sure how that works, but I would think that means you have actually have a _1 in 15 Million chance of being shot during your visit. _

Which begs the question, if Detroit is the second most dangerous place to live in America, and big cities are porpotionatly more dangerous than small suburbs and towns, how dangerous can our small towns really be?


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## Sonya (May 5, 2012)

Here is another site like Danielle posted only this one shows more detail, you can check any major city I believe:

http://www.neighborhoodscout.com/mi/detroit/crime

this one shows the odds, ex: 1 in 41 chance of being a victim of crime, then it breaks it down to homicide, rape, assault.

It couldnt find my little town though.

Edited: I take that back, it did find even my little town but it first brought up property info, you have to click the orange tab at top for the crime info.


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## andi (May 5, 2012)

I was trying to figure out why we see such a substantial difference in numbers and found a few things that are throwing things way of.

To answer the question, How Dangerous is Mary Lou's Trip to Detroit?, my estimates definitly should have included the ones Sonya menionted, not just murder, but all violant crimes. Also, my population was off, I had not realized what a substantial unusual drop the City took between 2009 to 2011. I think the final big difference is that the 1 in 41 chance of being a victim of a crime is if you lived there permanantly, if you were "at risk" 365 days a year. 1 in 41 is the chance you would be a victim _each year. _For example, if you play the lottering one time in your life you have slimmer chances of winning than if you played it every single day. It would work the same way, when asking amount Mary Lou's trip. You really have to figure out the chance per day, then multiply it by the days visiting.

When you run the numbers that way, you come up with each singular day having a 1 in 14,965 chance of being a victim of a violant crime. If you play that lottery for 365 days in a row, you have a 1 in 41 chance of "winning", aka , getting assaulted. hmm, a little dark.

All in all though, independent of our favorite Canadian Jet Setters situation, Sonya's numbers would definitly apply for the general debate of

"how safe are our towns?"


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## Jill (May 5, 2012)

Interesting numbers. I wish I'd have throught of all the possible poll answers at the outset, as I see several people have now changed their "no" votes to a choice that better fit their situation. "Shoot" (no pun intended!) that I didn't think of the other choices initially.


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## Danielle_E. (May 5, 2012)

Well Mary Lou just stay away From the high crime areas downtown and the very poor areas where I assume a lot of the gang activity happens. So sad!


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## Ashley (May 5, 2012)

Those areas, those small towns, leave your door unlocked type are actually those greatest in danger. They dont expect it, its where it will happen.

I do not have the permit to carry, I dont want one. working at the prison I learned how to "shoot to kill", and amazingly I have a dead on shot with little to no effort. Thats enough gun experiance for me.


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## MBennettp (May 6, 2012)

Yes I do have a permit and yes I do carry my gun and yes I do feel better when I am on the road by myself. I have had occasion to pull the gun and yes if the guy had continued I would have used it. The one thing I was always taught was never pull a gun unless you intend to fire.

I had a car overheat on the highway and a hitchhiker came over the hill and started trying to get the passenger door open even though the hood was up and the flashers were on. I had my gun leveled at his head when the highway patrol pulled up behind me. The hitchhiker took off at a run back over the hill when he saw the highway patrol pull up.

The officer asked me if I was going to shoot the guy and I told him only if the guy actually gained access to the car but evidently the guy didn't think I would because even though he saw the gun, he kept trying to get into the car.

I have been on the road a lot in the last several years and my gun is always with me.

Mary


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

I hear you, Mary. Obviously you "get it"


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## Nathan Luszcz (May 6, 2012)

andi said:


> Hey Mary Lou,
> 
> I really do hope that you will be able to sleep when you get here, it may be tough with the picture being painted. Here are some more numbers for you.
> 
> ...


Normally I agree with most of what you say, but have to beg to differ here. For being afraid of firearms, you sure picked the wrong state to move to lol. Texas is the only state that allows deadly force for trespassers, with no questions asked.

I live in Shelbyville, Kentucky. Nice peaceful horse country. We also have the worst gang in the state centered in town. Just two weeks ago there was a med run for a woman with chest pain. Turns out, it was 4 houses down from mine, and she didn't have pain, she was beaten and forced to drive her armed boyfriend here, where they ran out of gas, and he fled the scene. So here I am 500' from a fleeing armed felon. In our peaceful, quiet horse country county.

Yes, Kentucky is relatively safe. When I lived near Denver there were murders every night. I have no interest in going up to Chicago where violence is a daily occurrence, and multiple killings every day. 1:1,000,000 for you being shot? Not really... maybe city wide. But what about the areas YOU are in? There are some VERY safe places to be in. And there are some VERY dangerous places to be in. Your chances might be 1:1,000,000,000,000 in some places, 1:10 in others. And if you aren't a long time resident, you may have VERY little idea which place is which. I've known plenty of people who were mugged at knifepoint over the years back east. It certainly happens. I just don't intend it to happen to me, or my friends, or an innocent passerby.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> ...our dogs were glad to see us get back home..


Aren't they always! Best part of coming home


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## REO (May 6, 2012)

Men don't have any idea what it is to be a woman (prey) and you can tell them, but they will NEVER "get it". They might get an idea of how it feels to be a woman (prey) if they are slighter or softer built and they end up in prison somehow. There are many men that look upon women as victims, and make them so.

I'm not a sexgoddess, I'm middle aged extra fluffy housewife, but if I'm home alone and a UPS guy comes to the house, I feel aware at being vunerable. A man asking directions, I'm very wary!

NOT IN ALL CASES (so don't all jump on me) Men are more aggressive (it's nature) and women are not as physically strong and are *generally* more passive. Women DO have cause to be afraid if they are home or out alone. ANY thing at ANY time can and does happen to millions of women everyday.

So I say, *if* a woman wants or feels the need to carry a gun (and goes through legal steps) then she should not be belittled for doing so. (you are awesome Mary!)

If *you* don't want to have or carry a gun, fine! No one has a gun to your head making you LOL





IMO no one should be put down for something they believe in or is important to them.

Left that crap behind in grade school!

I want a pistol really bad. I would not carry it away from home but I would have it at my home because I *will* protect myself and what's mine. Until I ever get a pistol, the rifle will have to do.


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## Danielle_E. (May 6, 2012)

Those areas, those small towns, leave your door unlocked type are actually those greatest in danger. They dont expect it, its where it will happen.

Ashley, I don't think your blanket statement is very factual. You need to look at crime stats for small towns before saying something like that. Perhaps it's different in the US but I don't think so.


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## Sonya (May 6, 2012)

Not answering for Ashley, but I took her statement to mean that maybe in smaller towns, where crime is not as prevelant, people tend to get laxed and become unaware of something/someone who could cause you harm.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

I think this entire topic and the pattern the conversation is following is quite interesting. Most of the heated disagreements have nothing to do with whether or not we should have the right to own a gun, which is the actual reality of the dispute, but how "safe" America is. I think we all need to remember that we all perceive the same reality differently, it is not simply because one person is a woman, or has been a victim, or lived in a violent area before. Those factors are included in the human process of analyzing the reality, how safe America is, but a large amount of research has been done into how each and every person analyzes the world around them, and subconsciously "manipulates" the information they have received. By doing so, peoples actions then affect their reality, in this case, their safety, and can actually change the reality into what they thought they saw.

 

I think to look at this in extremes would help. For example, let's say you have a made up society, a Utopia. There is NO VIOLANCE, it is a safe place. BUT, someone discovers they could benefit from this misperception, maybe they could make a buck selling guns or gain power from leading the people out of a self induced "chaos". So, let's say this person finds someone who died of natural causes, because there is no violence, BUT tells the community that this person was killed by someone. People in turn would be concerned and want to defend themselves. They could much more easily be led to arm themselves. In turn they would definitely become more concerned and paranoid. In a community that never had a need for weapons and never had them is now heavily armed and convinced that someone is out to get them, the fear would increase. The community is most definitely a more dangerous place now because of how these people perceived their reality. They were in a safe violent free place, but by misunderstanding their reality they ruined it and more importantly created proof that it IS violent. The whole idea is that someone can misjudge reality, respond with an inappropriate action, their actions can then create that reality, that new reality then exponentially reinforces the original misconception. 

 

I am in no way saying that is all that is happening here in America, but I feel very strongly that it is part of it. Though many people like to insist that their version of reality is the right one, you have to look at how you came to those thoughts with a very critical eye. For example, the fear some women feel, is not just because you are a women, if it was a feeling based on your sex only, it would be shared by all women. But it isn't. If it was about being smaller or slighter than men, then all men who are small and slight would feel it, but again they don't. I don't disagree that your fear is true, but it is YOURS because of your personal view of reality. There are many people who should be in fear, and many people who shouldn’t, but more often than not, it has nothing to do with the condition of your reality and everything to do with how you perceive it. Just look at this entire topic.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

Robin, I'm right with you. I admire people who take "ownership" of self protection. I don't think everyone SHOULD own a gun, nor have a license to carry, but for those who want it for the right reasons and are comfortable / confident with it -- I say good for them. You really never know when you might need some extra help, and no one that I know who has a gun ever WANTS to have to use it to protect themselves or their families. However, they like knowing they have the ability to do so if need be.

Sonya, that's also what I thought Ashley meant, for whatever my two cents there may be worth.

I was BORN in TX. I guess it's possible there's something in the water there and caused me to grow up and be a gun toter and to hold many of the other feelings that are mine. I truly do not like guns, but I like what they mean to my life


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## Sonya (May 6, 2012)

Well I differ from you Jill as I DO like guns....I enjoy target practicing and hunting. Don't shoot as much as I like because the cost of bullets has skyrocketed the last 3 years.


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## REO (May 6, 2012)

I guess I've _imagined_ all the crime, death, murder & rapes all over the US in big and large cities and towns.

My, what a big imagination I must have! If I stop perceiving and imagining there is crime, then there won't BE any more crime and I can go live happily with my head in the sand too. I don't live in a squeaky pretty utopia where I can pretend the world at large doesn't exist. Crap happens to ALL people in all places all the time. You never know where or when it might happen. People always think it's the other guy & never them.......until it does happen to them. I choose to live in reality and am AWARE that things can happen. Saying that the way I see things is all in my head.....well, let's just hope a random act of crime never happens to you because you believe that the whole world is so safe and those who believe that it isn't are imagining it.

If you DECIDE not to live in the REALITY that there IS crime, that is your choice.

I guess you missed reading my entire post where I said NOT ALL, but generally.

Even a "slight" man is still a man and does not understand.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

Sonya said:


> Well I differ from you Jill as I DO like guns....I enjoy target practicing and hunting. Don't shoot as much as I like because the cost of bullets has skyrocketed the last 3 years.










That reminds me of something Chris Rock used to say. Something like to curb gun violence, make bullets each cost $5,000. Then there wouldn't be any accidental shootings. People would say "%@(! He must have deserved it, He's got $15,000 worth of bullets in his ______." Old, but funny


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

Oh, here we go! The clip is just as PG13 (language) as the rest of this gun oriented thread:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OuX-nFmL0II


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

"Those areas, those small towns, leave your door unlocked type are actually those greatest in danger. They don’t expect it, its where it will happen."

I think Ashley's statement can probably be taken multiple ways, and is a common point that I think is often meant multiple ways.

One way, is that by not realizing the danger is there, and not locking your door, you are in reality putting yourself in more danger than you were in before. A true statement.



Another way, is the idea that the amount of danger you are now in, by not locking the door in a relatively safe community, or being aware that you are not as safe as you think, puts you in MORE danger than actually being in a more typically dangerous place, like Chicago. Now that statement would need numbers and facts to back it up. For example, how many failed attacks are there in small towns due to locked doors? Those numbers would then have to be compared to the number of successful attacks in "dangerous places". In my opinion, this meaning of the comment shows it to be an exaggeration.



Finally, it could just simply mean, the numbers are not right, small towns are just as dangerous as any large city. Of course, this would just be an untrue statement, but could have been created by the misinformation from media. Often crimes in typically safe areas get more attention and media coverage, because they are unusual. They are sometimes sensationalized to sell papers and get viewers, leading people to believe they happen more often than we think.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

I am sorry you feel so insulted by my post Robin, I thought I made myself very clear that my example was an extreme and that I know that it is not the world we live in. My example can happen on any level, a completely unsafe place all the way to a completely safe place and everything inbetween. If we don't critically analyze the information we are given by the public and also how we ouselves see things, we are at great risk of not seeing what is really in front of us. This last post of yours is a wonderful example.

This is what you said,

"I guess you missed reading my entire post where I said NOT ALL."

That ^ right there is very true, the NOT ALL part. BUT, if you read this post you just made, you say the exact opposite right above that,

"Crap happens to ALL people in all places".

You know that statement is an exageration, it is not true, but part of you feels the need to express it. The reason is, you think I do not understand and appreciate how bad things are, so you OVER correct, to "balance" me view. By doing so, you are creating a falsehood, to try and change how I see things. In this case, you are aware of your manipulation. You know your statement isn't true, but justified making it on the idea that it would bring my understanding closer to the actual truth.


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## Minimor (May 6, 2012)

In discussions here on a local board, some people say that our city is not safe; others mock those people, saying the city IS safe, the real problem is that some people simply live in fear, too afraid to live life to the fullest...something along those lines.

I have never been able to figure out why being aware of the possibility of danger, being vigilant about who and what is around me wherever I may be, taking precautions that will keep me safe whatever I am doing or wherever I may be...how is that living in fear? I consider my neighborhood safe, but if an unfamiliar vehicle stops beside me on the road & asks for directions, I am not going to walk up & lean in the window of that vehicle--I can give directions perfectly well from several feet away. That's not fear, that is common sense.

For 10 years I lived in a small town. I left there over 25 years ago. In the years I lived there, and in 24 of those years that I have beeng one from there, I don't remember there ever being a murder. Over a year ago a man was shot and killed. He had gone to a local vendor to buy beer. He took his beer home to his house party. He did not notice that someone followed him home. That someone knocked on his door & demanded admission to the party. When the man refused he was shot. That sort of thing just doesn't happen in that town. It never had before. But obviously it can happen, and it did happen this one time. It simply doesn't pay to assume it won't happen in any given town or neighborhood, just because it never has before. Maybe it never will happen...but it could. Is it paranoid to think that it might happen, and that it might happen to "you"? I don't think so. I think it is realistic. It is realistic to take whatever steps make one feel safe--for some that may mean buying a gun, some may have a guard dog. For some an electronic alarm system is sufficient. Some might have an alarm system, a guard dog and a gun. I do like to try and keep myself safe...Robin is right--believing that there is no crime doesn't make it so. Believing that a crime will never happen to me will not guarantee that it will be so--I prefer to exercise common sense and make sure that i don't put myself in harms way simply by not paying attention in a false sense of security. I would like to carry a gun, though I would still hope that I never have to use it. Likewise, when I am driving, I drive defensively. I hope that I will never have to take evasive action to try and avoid someone else, but if it does become necessary I want to be aware of where I can go to try and avoid disaster.


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## Sonya (May 6, 2012)

well if anyone truley believes the numbers that are out there are manipulated or false, I'd love to see them explain that to the 600 women who were raped today in the US....no people should not have to live in fear, and for some having a gun may eleviate that fear. Being aware of your surroundings, locking your door becomes natural and is not living in fear....for me it's like my seatbelt, I just do it....and sometimes depending on where I am going I may grab my pistol too.

Lol on the video Jill.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

Exactly, Sonya!!!

Really, locking your car and home doors -- where's the downside??? Every reason in the world TO do it. NO good reason not to.


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## REO (May 6, 2012)

The actual truth is that I don't care if what you think is different than what I think. I am entitled to mine and you are entiled to yours. You are missing MY point. MY point is that just as you have a right to state yours, others do also. But here you have taken it upon yourself to belittle anyone (and twist and assume about) anything others say. It's ok to say you disagree. But there's no reason to be so hard on people. Let's just all agree to disagree!





I am sorry you feel so insulted by my post Robin, *I'm not the least bit insulted!* I thought I made myself very clear *Not that I saw* that my example was an extreme *You did not say that in your post.* and that I know that it is not the world we live in. My example can happen on any level, a completely unsafe place all the way to a completely safe place and everything inbetween. If we don't critically analyze the information we are given by the public and also how we ouselves see things, we are at great risk of not seeing what is really in front of us. This last post of yours is a wonderful example. *So, you're saying I'm stupid and a liar, nice*

*Real life is more than internet research. *

Why can _your_ example be an "extreme example", but you take exception if mine is? Why do you have to rebutt everything everyone says and feel that you must prove everyone who feels, thinks or has experiences differently than you is wrong?

ALL I'm saying is you form your opinions on your internet research (if you believe everything you read) and many people here have lived real life in the real world for twice as long. (age=experience etc) Don't assume others whose opinions differ from your own have not also researched to form their own opinions.

NO ONE IS THE SAME, no one has lived the same life or learned the same life lessons. So why assume, preach to or belittle others who don't see things the same way you do?

Be happy with how you feel and think!



But I hope that people will be mature enough to respect that others should be allowed to be happy with what they think and feel also, without having fingers wagged at them.

I wrote what I FEEL. I did not write to TWIST or as you accuse me of, manipulate things. I'm not trying to change your mind. I'm posting not to YOU, but to ALL here MY feelings and thoughts. Last time I checked, I have that right. If you don't like what I say, ignore me. I can see closed minds that read what they want to read will NEVER see anyone ELSES point of view.

The world does not revolve around you or how you think it should be.

Life is about learning not bulldozing over the top of anyone who dares to open their mouths to dare have a differing opinion.

But I'm wasting my time. Some people insist on calling those with different feelings liars. I do not appreciate that.

Things CAN and DO happen to ANYone at ANY time.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

Robin, I think you just hit all the nails on the head my friend





I was just reflecting and I think the way I feel about personal protection just parallels and is tied to the way I feel about personal responsibility. Hand in hand. If i can do something for myself, vs. relying on it to be "given" to me, I'll do it for myself. I think I see that same spirit in many of us.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

Minimor,

In reading your post, it sounds like your thoughts are in response to a conversation you have read on a _different _forum, correct? Because I haven’t seen anyone here say that anyone’s safety is taking precedence over living your live to the fullest, and I don't want to be defensive over an idea that is not actually being assigned to me.

Also, I see some glaring examples how people can become personally offended in some comments that are being made. I understand that being online, it is hard to understand tone, but that is why we need to all start being very critical of ourselves when posting. For example, saying that your view is just common sense is insulting. What about the person who thinks you should stand 15 feet away, that it isn't a safety precaution, just good common sense. To imply that your view is the common sense one, and that other views are there for outside of the common ones, is belittling. I am sure you didn’t put the word in to insult, but to emphasize. In reality, it is those kinds of things that quietly aggravate people until they "blow up" or just leave the forum. I have been just as guilty. For example I love adding "very" to some of my opinions. But in reality, very does not change a statement, as is usually used as a "preemptive" warning to people, not to question that thought, I feel it to strongly for you to change my mind. Honestly, it creates a quite undercurrent of animosity and aggression.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

Robin, and by an obviose connection Jill,

I never called anyone a liar or said my opinion matters more. My entire post was about how the brain perceives reality, with ALL of us. That we all have a different view of the same world. For the exact reason that you have brought up, we all have different experiances. My entire point is that we are not liars, me or you, but honestly see a different truth. For the simple reason that some of our perceptions have to be wrong, because we all are in the same world, we all need to be very carefull about allowing our feelings to control our idea of what is true. There is honestly a big difference between haveing a feeling about what is true, and allowing your feeling to shape what you see.

For the record Robin, I most definitly did say it was an extreme example, the statment was, " I think we should look at this in an extreme example". I then made up a fake utopia. I then explained that I in no way think that this is happening in america, but that the idea's it expresses are part of the problem.

Somehow my opinions on this very limited topic have givin you, Robin, the permission to attack me about my age and my general behavior on this forum. That makes it quite clear that your preconceived idea of who I am has effected your ability to see me as anything else. I am truly sorry you have been robbed of the opporutiny to truly appreciate me for who I truly am.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

andi said:


> I am truly sorry you have been robbed of the opporutiny to truly appreciate me for who I truly am.


James, I'm sorry but with what you just wrote, I have got to say this -- yesterday you ONCE AGAIN showed us exactly who you are. I'll leave the details out but you know precisely what I mean and so do a handful of others. You are as unremorseful as you are wrong.


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## REO (May 6, 2012)

I'm sorry that you felt the need to take apart and that you felt my post about how *I* feel vunerable as a woman IE: subject of guns for personal protection, was directed at you. It wasn't.

That post was how *I* feel and not about you at all.

Your posts after that were leveled at me and made me feel that I had to defend myself. I see now that you were just making up fake utopias etc for example but in your post you did not make that clear enough. (me=marestare=fuzzy mind) I took what you said about my twisting things to see what I want to see and that I was not seeing reality personally.

I don't understand why a fake utopian world had to come into play because I said how I feel about guns & personal protection. And how I was told that I twisted things around to fit into my imagined perception of how things really are.

No where did I attack your age. I WAS saying that how older adults who have lived in the real world might have more living under their belts might see things differently than someone starting out in life. Why is that any different that a guy saying that I might see things differently because I'm a woman? You said one, I said the other. To me that was facts how we each see them, not personal attacks.






I know that you feel I am always meaning you, but I'm not posting to just you, but in general. If were talking to only you James, I would email you so we could talk in private





I've known you for years and I don't assume things about you



Please don't assume things about me





I may have (because of your sentance structure) not understood what you meant and felt I had to defend my feelings. But I was not attacking you, just saying how I feel. Just like everyone else is allowed to do. I guess I'm not allowed to speak here.

My tone is (in my head) soft and just trying to make clear that all people see things differently than each other. My posts were not all about you. If you took them that way, I'm sorry that you did.

I guess I'm not used to having everything I say picked apart and debated for the sake of conversation. I take people at their word as to what they feel is true to them and I guess I like it when people accept what I say is true to me also.


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## Danielle_E. (May 6, 2012)

Posted Today, 02:39 PM

Not answering for Ashley, but I took her statement to mean that maybe in smaller towns, where crime is not as prevelant, people tend to get laxed and become unaware of something/someone who could cause you harm.

Thanks Sonya. Yes reading it again you are right. I am probably lax because of where I live. I have never felt the need to carry a gun or even own one for protection. The chances of needing one to protect myself is probably less because I reside in Canada and a very small community. Now if I lived in Detroit I would not feel the same way but then again I probably would never live there because of the very high rate in the city for shootings and other crimes.


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## Danielle_E. (May 6, 2012)

Sonya I love your analogy

Posted Today, 05:40 PM

Being aware of your surroundings, locking your door becomes natural and is not living in fear....for me it's like my seatbelt, I just do it....and sometimes depending on where I am going I may grab my pistol too.

I also use my seatbelt when the car is moving but if the car is not moving and the motor not on I don't feel the need to put the seatbelt on, lol


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## KanoasDestiny (May 6, 2012)

I can relate to what you guys are saying about how us women should take extra precautions as we are victimized more easily. I am a BIG girl, and sometimes I feel like that fact puts me at an advantage from being a rape victim because I can't be easily tossed about. But in 2009 I got a big wake up call. I had a 19 year old neighbor who apparently got the wrong idea and thought I was coming on to him. He propositioned me and I tried to let him down gently. The next day, I was home alone and he came over to my house. He knocked on my door and since I didn't usually have many visitors, I was leary. I looked out my peep hole and saw who it was. I pretended that I wasn't home and waited tensely by the door for him to leave. He started yelling, saying he could hear me inside and that he wanted to talk to me. I ignored him and he wiggled the door knob several times. Thank God it was locked! Finally he yelled "I see how it is, I'll see you later." After he left, I called my husband crying. My neighbor was stupid enough to come back after my husband got home from work, and boy was he surprised when my husband yanked the door open and asked him what he wanted. It turns out that my neighbor was extremely drunk. There's no telling what could have happened if I would have opened my door to him or if my door had been unlocked. We went and bought me pepper spray and a tazer that day.

Any of us can become a victim at any time, whether by someone we know or a stranger. Now that I'm reading these responses, I'm beginning to think that having a gun could only be beneficial. Whether I have one or not, that doesn't change whether or not other people also have one. If anything, it evens the odds. Thank you Jill for posting this thread, it;s definately given me something to think about.


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## Minimor (May 6, 2012)

Andi-no, my point was that the words and discussion I've seen on a local board are very similar to what is being said here. What isn't said is often implied...if you need a gun then you are paranoid because the world around us all is very safe...that's what I'm getting from some here. Deny it or twist it any way you like, but that is how some come across. If you feel safe anywhere and everywhere you go, great for you, no one ever said you must have a gun if you don't want one.

I had no ulterior meaning to anything I said previously. If someone is offended because I said standing back from a strange car to give directions is common sense, well, next time I hear of someone getting molested after they walked right up to that strange car I am going to say "what did he/she expect-that was foolish". I don't believe any town is ever 100% safe. Maybe 99% of the time 80% of them are but if you are the victim of the crime that one and only time a crime is ever committed in you town you may wish you had exercised more care 100% of the time. If my words offend you , well, if your view of common sense is different from mine, neither of us should be offended. We simply don't agree on what constitutes common sense and what is offensive about that?


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## minimomNC (May 6, 2012)

No matter what everyone decides is the best for them, if you plan to carry a firearm, please check all of your state regulations about ownership. Every state is different and reading what the laws are in NC, well lets just say its pretty easy to get a handgun. But at least they do require you to take a handgun course before you can get a permit to even buy one.


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## REO (May 6, 2012)

I'm actually very shy and I rarely jump in and post and say how I feel or think about things. I did today about how I feel about having a gun for personal protection. I've been made to feel I had to defend myself. I've been on this forum for close to 13 years. I see now it's not worth trying to join a conversation. I will stick to posting LB games, Secret Santa, about foals and supporting people when they have joys in their horses etc.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

I am very sorry to anyone who had read more into my words than I meant, or felt that I read into your words more than you meant. I have been glued to philosophy seminars for 3 days now, and those views, about how people see different things when looking at the same thing, have obviously taken over my thought process. I want to make it clear that my hope to discuss that on this topic was in no way to make people change their opinions about the original topic, but to use this conversation more as a "case study" to really show just how different those views can be, and how they can stop logical debate and the search for "the truth". 

Jill, I think the people involved in my day to day life are the only ones who truly know who I am, and I guess in the future, that might just be how I leave it. I was very excited the last three days, about information that you actually had opened my eyes to. I, obviously naively, felt that I was hearing things that if everyone heard could really solve allot of the problems we see here on this forum and more importantly in life. Sadly, through a combination of my admittedly poor delivery and some peoples tendency to jump the gun and take any opportunity to attack me, those thoughts end up a casualty of war.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

James, I really have tried to limit any conversations with you and I think that's very clear to you and to anyone else who follows some of the threads on the back porch. However, your post AT me yesterday was a personal attack like none I've ever seen before on LB... unless you count your prior personal attack at me last November. It's crystal clear you aren't sorry and now you want to act like it didn't happen, or that it was justified.

I try not to get into discussions with you for just the same reasons I imagine are now clear to a few other long time members as I've watched you do to them what you had prerviously done to me.

Please, don't try to act put upon or misunderstood. It's one thing to lose your temper and SAY something in the heat of the moment but to take the time to type it out -- no, that's not an accident, I can't think of any justifiable excuse, and you clearly are not sorry at all. After what you did yesterday, to try and preach to us about being nicer is just more than a little too much.

I'm just sitting here dumbfounded to read that you are posting about you being attacked. My gosh...


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## REO (May 6, 2012)

minimomNC said:


> No matter what everyone decides is the best for them, if you plan to carry a firearm, please check all of your state regulations about ownership. Every state is different and reading what the laws are in NC, well lets just say its pretty easy to get a handgun. But at least they do require you to take a handgun course before you can get a permit to even buy one.


Very good info and reminder!!


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## Sonya (May 6, 2012)

Danielle, just wanted to answer your post...I do not live any where near Detroit ( I live outside a very small farming Village of about 2,000) but I do work near Flint, which actually has a higher crime rate than Detroit unfortunately. All the statistics show that the US does have a higher violent crime rate than Canada, except when it comes to property crimes (breakins, robberies)....I wonder why that is? Perhaps because we as law abiding citizens and home owners do have easier access to firearms legally. And when I sit in my car it's because I am going somewhere (I don't sit in it for the joy of it, cause it isn't that much fun)...so yes I do put my seatbelt on. I really don't know why some have a problem with the fact that its a good idea to lock your car doors or your house doors at night...kinda odd that people would think thats a bad idea.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

Jill, I have made no statement at all about any type of remorse or lack of remorse for what I said yesterday to you, so you have nothing, other than assumptions, to base your view of my remorse on. In all reality, leaving it up did do more harm to me than to you, because it was out of line and against the rules of the forum. That being said, I would consider sharing the names of people who have chosen to be anonymous a larger infraction on people’s privacy than what I shared about you.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

andi said:


> *Jill, I have made no statement at all about any type of remorse or lack of remorse for what I said yesterday to you*, so you have nothing, other than assumptions, to base your view of my remorse on. In all reality, leaving it up did do more harm to me than to you, because it was out of line and against the rules of the forum. That being said, I would consider sharing the names of people who have chosen to be anonymous a larger infraction on people’s privacy than what I shared about you.


Really... that says a lot about your character. You owe me an apology but on the other hand, what would it even mean? Considering it's the second time you have attacked me in a very nasty, nasty way. You couldn't be more in the wrong.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

I have not seen any comments on here that say locking your car door or house is a bad idea?


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## ohmt (May 6, 2012)

I'm sure people don't think it's a bad idea, Sonya. I've personally never heard anyone say they think so. I believe many just become extremely comfortable where they live and when everybody knows everybody, it's easy to happen. For the record, i do lock my doors at my apartment in Fargo. I have often left my car running while i run into Caribou before my 8am class in the winter though. But hey, it's cold up here! My grandparents leave their doors unlocked, but they do have quite a few firearms and between the 8 very vocal dogs, the chances that someone would make it up the driveway without one of them "tattling" would be very slim. Actually, i'd really like to make it up the driveway myself without them going crazy just once





I think a few people are having a bad day today reading some previous posts. Everyone smile and go give your horses some extra scratches. Even if we can not agree on many things, we all share our love for the horses. Now off to study for finals-2 more days and i'll be back at the farm for good. Have a great night everyone!


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## Danielle_E. (May 6, 2012)

Sonya, I think you took what I said in a different manner than I meant it. I was saying thanks for making me see and understand better the reasons for Americans to want the choice to carry arms. As I tried to convey is that if I resided in a possible high crime area I would want to own a gun and carry one on me as well. And I also thought your analogy about the seatbelt was very clever and good. Sorry if my words didn't convey that. I was just trying to be humorous with my situation. My apologies if it didn't come across the way it was meant.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

Jill, I feel that my comments that were removed were out of line considering the rules on this board, but are not something that I would consider warranting an apology to you personally. I can tell you that it will not happen again and also that it will be at the very front of my mind for quite some time. I will re-examine and try to look at this all with the most critical eye I can. If at anytime I come up with a different conclusion, and feel that I need to apologize to you, I will immediately. When and if that happens, it will be 100% genuine, but at this point it would not be. I think we need to remember we have both had comments to each other removed, by moderators and by ourselves, that have not resulted in apologies, this is in no way a one sided attack or lack of apology.


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## Jill (May 6, 2012)

andi said:


> Jill, I feel that my comments that were removed were out of line considering the rules on this board, but are not something that I would consider warranting an apology to you personally. I can tell you that it will not happen again and also that it will be at the very front of my mind for quite some time. I will re-examine and try to look at this all with the most critical eye I can. If at anytime I come up with a different conclusion, and feel that I need to apologize to you, I will immediately. When and if that happens, it will be 100% genuine, but at this point it would not be. I think we need to remember we have both had comments to each other removed, by moderators and by ourselves, that have not resulted in apologies, this is in no way a one sided attack or lack of apology.


Again, that you don't think you should appologize is stunning. And I don't think just to me.

ETA, nothing I've said needed to be removed by the mods yesterday... I don't behave that way.


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## andi (May 6, 2012)

Jill, in our history, I have apologized publicly, on this forum, to you. So, when it comes to my character, on my ability to swallow my pride and apologize, I have proven it.

ETA, but you have had things removed and not opologized ... yestersday or not ... you do not apologize.


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## Mona (May 6, 2012)

Time to take this to PMs I think. This back and forth has gone on long enough.


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