# Inconsistent Gaits



## JMS Miniatures (Oct 14, 2011)

Ok out of the blue my horse is having such inconsistent gaits its not even funny. This is a 9 year old experienced show horse thats been driving for 6 years now and when I trained him he was actualy easy to train, I have no clue why he is acting like this and its starting to get frusterating.

For one his walk is very slow, no forward motion at all, its been like that all year but really didn't think much of it. His collected trot is all over the place. One minute his trot is really slow, to almost perfect, then he goes real fast to his extended without asking. I try to make him slow down and telling him easy but he just doesn't listen. Then of course when you try to extend he breaks and canters. I try to shut him down by doing figure 8s, serpatines, anything to keep his feet moving but not thinking forward motion. He has broke so much that he gives it away so easily he will just turn in himself. I thought maybe he just needed to get out and just drive on the country roads so we went 10 miles today and it helped some but he still broke. What can I do? I almost feel like I myself is so green that I feel like sending him off to a driving trainer for a couple of months but I want to fix it myself as something is wrong. I will agree he is showing a huge lack of respect and he probably should not even go into the cart and just do groundwork but unfortuantly our last show is next weekend. I would like to survive this last show. Should I just not drive him anymore til then and just do groundwork? And what should I do to fix this.


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## Ann knight (Oct 14, 2011)

Maybe he is sore ?

Ann


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## wildoak (Oct 14, 2011)

Any training issues aside, might he be sore/uncomfortable somewhere that's making it hard for him to hold together? Just always my first thought with a horse who is acting out of the ordinary. Maybe a chiropractic adjustment?

Jan


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## RhineStone (Oct 14, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> I will agree he is showing a huge lack of respect and he probably should not even go into the cart and just do groundwork but unfortuantly our last show is next weekend.


Other than what Ann said, if he is pushing the envelope with other things, maybe he is trying to make decisions in the cart, too. If he is acting this way out of "spite" or something else, is he going to show well? Probably not, so it might not be even worth showing him until you can put more time in on him. No sense taking him to a show just to fight with him. That's no fun!

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 14, 2011)

Sudden changes like this do not happen without cause. Have him checked by a vet and/or chiropractor! Horses break to a canter because it's easier than doing an extended trot so when they're sore that's the first thing they do. Something is not right with your friend and IMO you need to make sure it's not equipment- or pain-based before deciding he's just being naughty and trying to cure it with a wet saddle blanket.

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 14, 2011)

I would like to hear a little more background on this horse. You say he has been driving for 6 years. What type of driving is he doing? You are going to a show next weekend. This is October. When did you start showing this year? Have you always had a long show season or is this the longest year you have had? Have you made any changes to his tack or hitching recently? Is there any part of his harness that has worn or stretched? Has he had his teeth done or at least checked recently? How much driving experience do you have? No offense intended but are your hands good, quiet and kind? Can he bend going around corners?

This horse is sore somewhere. There is almost no doubt. He is trying to tell you something and you really need to listen. I would not advise you taking him in the showring or even driving him for the time being either on the ground or in the cart until you figure out where the trouble is coming from. It could be a dental issue, a physical problem due to an injury, a training issue or an equipment issue. I don't think it has anything to do with lack of respect or spite. You said it was "sudden" but then you said you noticed a difference in his walk at the beginning of the year. I think this is something that has been bothering him for quite some time and is gradually getting worse. Taking him in the showring you could be risking a bolt which will not only affect you but others in the ring - one more show is not worth it. If there is a knowledgeable trainer or horseperson near you that could come and have a look at him for you, and watch you drive him, it might not be as expensive as you think and you wouldn't necessarily have to "send him off to a trainer". I would try that first, then have his teeth checked, then a physical done if you haven't come up with anything by that point.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 14, 2011)

Within 6 months he has had his teeth done and he had a lil adjustment done but nothing major at all. I worked him in the roundpen tonight and he seemed to be going around just fine, in fact it took me some effort for me to even get him into a canter. He doesn't act sore, he goes along in the cart just fine. No change in tack, the tack is perfectly fine. We normaly don't have a show in Oct. Nationals is our last show. BUT, there is no reason for him not to just go out and just drive. He was even just checked by a vet past couple of days and the vet couldn't find anything out of the oridinary. He drives in Western, so his head is not being hold by a check and nothing strenous.

I decided to not drive him but just do some groundwork. Just to see if anything improves.


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 14, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> Within 6 months he has had his teeth done and he had a lil adjustment done but nothing major at all. I worked him in the roundpen tonight and he seemed to be going around just fine, in fact it took me some effort for me to even get him into a canter. He doesn't act sore, he goes along in the cart just fine. No change in tack, the tack is perfectly fine. We normaly don't have a show in Oct. Nationals is our last show. BUT, there is no reason for him not to just go out and just drive. He was even just checked by a vet past couple of days and the vet couldn't find anything out of the oridinary. He drives in Western, so his head is not being hold by a check and nothing strenous.
> 
> I decided to not drive him but just do some groundwork. Just to see if anything improves.


According to him there is a reason for him not to just go out and drive




So, from the sound of it you do breed ring driving with him. And you have extended his show season longer than you ordinarily would. Does this horse bend going around the corners or is he driving like a typical breed ring horse leading with his shoulder and pushing the shafts around the corners pulling the cart along rather than pushing it? The reason it is important for us to teach our horses to bend and drive from the hind end is that over time this will prevent stress injuries. That is something that you seldom see in the breed show ring. Most of those horses have a very short career in the ring before they go on to the breeding paddock. Your horse is being required to drive for a lot more years than most in the breed ring. Most people showing in the breed ring hitch their horse for maximum short term performance and have them pulling off the saddle rather than pushing into the breast collar. Even in Western pleasure you quite often see this. If you watch the horses going around the ring they are crooked in the shafts, head to the outside and leading with the inside shoulder. He obviously hasn't always driven Western as he has been driving longer than that class has been offered. What does your warmup consist of? How do you train at home - length of time, how often per week, movements used, etc.?

Horses, left to their own devices, travel crooked. This is fine if they are never asked to pull weight. For them to be able to drive well for any length of time it is important to get them moving straight and then you can work on getting them to bend. If you don't accomplish this eventually you end up with a sore and tired horse. I think that is what he is trying to tell you. The fact that he is transitioning upwards on his own means that he is trying to balance himself as he is feeling insecure. I think there is a good chance that you, and he, would benefit greatly from some driving lessons with a knowledgeable instructor.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 14, 2011)

He can bend one way pretty good but one side not so much. He also does obstacle driving, goes on trails, so its not just round and round in circles. On a good day we will just drive for like 30 min. But if we are having issues that I need to correct lately its been defintelly an hour an hour and a half and drive maybe twice a week, the rest we just do ground stuff. I haven't really worked much for this show, he has had a couple of weeks off since Nationals. He also hasn't shown every year driving, maybe 4 out of the 6. He used to show in country before but he was always driven with a long check.

With our warm ups we do figure 8s and try to do some bending exercises like serpatines before we start.


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 14, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> He can bend one way pretty good but one side not so much. He also does obstacle driving, goes on trails, so its not just round and round in circles. On a good day we will just drive for like 30 min. But if we are having issues that I need to correct lately its been defintelly an hour an hour and a half and drive maybe twice a week, the rest we just do ground stuff. I haven't really worked much for this show, he has had a couple of weeks off since Nationals. He also hasn't shown every year driving, maybe 4 out of the 6. He used to show in country before but he was always driven with a long check.
> 
> With our warm ups we do figure 8s and try to do some bending exercises like serpatines before we start.


From what you just told me I can almost guarantee that we are on the right track here and he is starting to protest because he is getting sore from not moving correctly. He is just at that make it or break it point in driving where you are either going to get him straight and then bending or he is going to blow up on you. Working off his forehand is making his muscles sore because the front end of a horse's skeleton is only connected to the rest of the skeleton by muscle not bone. He doesn't have the support up front to carry the weight of a cart - he needs that huge muscle and bone in his back end to help by doing the majority of the work. All horses feel like they "bend" better one way than the other and that is because they are crooked to start. This isn't actually bending but they are better balanced naturally in one direction than the other. Watch a horse running free and you will see that they lead with one shoulder and their head turned to one side. Bending exercises on their own will only exasperate the problem because unless he is actually bending around those tight corners he is going to be even more crooked, lead more with his shoulder and get more sore. You need to back off a bit and go back to LARGE circles and really open loopy changes of rein while asking with your hands for the bend and using your whip on his inside barrel to encourage him to bend through his body and get his back leg under himself on the turns to help support and keep him upright. Do this at a comfortable working trot. It is his feeling of being out of balance that is making him move up into the higher gait because he can pull himself upright if he moves faster. I find spirals can be very helpful with bending. Start in a HUGE circle at a working trot asking for the bend and with each pass close the circle in the width of the cart and slow the trot - start at a 10 pace and work down to a 5 and then back out and up again. Work equally in both directions with plenty of support on your outside hand while asking with your inside hand for the bend. I would also be driving this horse more than once or twice a week. That isn't enough to continue to develop him. Every other day at least. Even when you go out on the road you can work on bending by doing shallow serpentines as you go along being sure to ask for the change in bend as you change direction. Or you can just work on getting him to move straight. What you don't want to see is his head hanging off to one side or the other as he moves forward leading with one shoulder - he needs to move both shoulders out equally to be straight. I really think you are seeing this because you are driving him more this year than you usually have and he has reached the point where he needs more support, isn't getting it and is therefore becoming sore.

I would also get him working off his haunches more by asking him for transitions up and down. Ask him for a halt and trot off or a halt, back up and trot off. Start working on this at the walk at first keeping him on the bit and not allowing him to throw his head up and himself into the breast collar to shove the cart along. You want to feel him push that weight with his back end. Right now he is working off his forehand and losing impulsion.

A good warmup starts by getting the horse straight. Each time it will get easier and quicker to get him straight. Once you have him straight then you start to work on getting him bending, again it gets quicker and easier as he develops but even so you go through all the steps with each warmup. 30 minutes isn't enough time to properly warm up a beginner horse or an experienced horse that hasn't learned yet to bend and carry himself. The good thing is that because he has been driving for a while he has developed some muscle, now you just need to get him working the proper way using the proper muscles.

The hard part is that at a breed show you seldom have the time or space to warm a horse up correctly but if you have been working him correctly at home he will not be so sore that you can't give him a shorter, less effective warmup and drive him for the few minutes a breed show class takes even if he isn't truly on the bit and bending nicely and still get a decent performance.

Just one other question: Is this a stallion or a gelding?


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## susanne (Oct 15, 2011)

...perhaps too obvious of a question, especially after Lori's insightful thoughts, but is his winter coat coming in and could it be getting caught in any buckles or straps?


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 15, 2011)

susanne said:


> ...perhaps too obvious of a question, especially after Lori's insightful thoughts, but is his winter coat coming in and could it be getting caught in any buckles or straps?


Not too obvious Suzanne and a very good thought but as she noticed this coming on earlier in the season and it has been worsening and she is showing him so I assume he is body clipped (but then, assuming can get you in trouble



) so I would think a winter coat is not likely the culprit in this particular instance.

Suzanne is so right though, something as simple as that can throw a horse right off his gaits. My stallion, the one pictured in my avatar, who was very capable of truly collecting and bending and giving me an excellent dressage test, suddenly started having trouble collecting and wanted to fall in badly on a circle. Earlier in the season he had shaken his bridle loose after a cross country course and I was left sitting in the cart with no bridle.Fortunately he knew voice commands well and came to a halt for me. I got off, put the bridle back on and snugged up his throatlatch, which was obviously too loose, one hole and continued in the season with it that way. The cure for his "problem" was to loosen the throatlatch again and replace it with a gullet strap. I had made him sore because he couldn't hold his head where he liked to carry himself, with the throatlatch tightened like that.

I get horses in that are having trouble all the time and I have gotten used to asking questions and listening carefully to what I hear from the owner to try to decipher where the problem is coming from. I really believe this is soreness related to a driver/training issue.


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## Sandee (Oct 16, 2011)

One other thought. If he has been showing a lot this season, perhaps he's working on an ulcer. My guy shows in Western too and has a really "go now where fast" walk but at Nationals he was a mess going slower and slower no matter what I did. Got home and had his blood checked. Vet said the results are what she'd see with an ulcer.


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## Jetiki (Oct 16, 2011)

I would guess back or sacroiliac issues. My mare slipped and fell while in the round pen and threw her's all out of whack and caused an issue similar to the OP's problem. lack of consistency, not wanting to go round and forward, cantering instead of doing a strong trot. I really wish they'd call it a strong trot and not an extended trot, because its really not a true extended trot, but thats neither here nor there. My point is this, look at the back/sacrum ie chiropractor and see if that is the problem.

karen


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 17, 2011)

I took him to the vet this morning because this weekend he wasn't eating very well. The vet checked him all over, literally, and we have come up with ulcers. After ruling out colic on Sunday thats what I come up with as well.

Never said he has been getting worse all year. This just started a week ago. So him having a ulcer makes sense to me. He could have got it at Nationals and it just intenseified once we started driving again.


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 18, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> I took him to the vet this morning because this weekend he wasn't eating very well. The vet checked him all over, literally, and we have come up with ulcers. After ruling out colic on Sunday thats what I come up with as well.
> 
> Never said he has been getting worse all year. This just started a week ago. So him having a ulcer makes sense to me. He could have got it at Nationals and it just intenseified once we started driving again.


An ulcer does make sense. You did say in your original post that "his walk has been slow all year" but you didn't think much of it. That does indicate that he did have a better walk at some point prior to this year or you wouldn't have noticed it was slow. Since then he has progressed to jumping into the next gait, etc - that would indicate worsening. He could easily have been working on developing an ulcer for a while now though. Glad you have found a possible cause and hope you can get him feeling better and back on track quickly!


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## brasstackminis (Oct 26, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> An ulcer does make sense. You did say in your original post that "his walk has been slow all year" but you didn't think much of it. That does indicate that he did have a better walk at some point prior to this year or you wouldn't have noticed it was slow. Since then he has progressed to jumping into the next gait, etc - that would indicate worsening. He could easily have been working on developing an ulcer for a while now though. Glad you have found a possible cause and hope you can get him feeling better and back on track quickly!



I just thought I would mention a little something here about ulcers. A few weeks ago I went to a seminar put on by an equine nutritionist (from Purina)about making hay stretch during our horrible drought and lack of hay.



She mentioned a new study where they were able to put a camera into a horse's stomach during workouts. They found that horse's stomachs collapse during exertion and more so the harder/faster they work. So when a horse is galloping it is super likely, with a very small stomach volume avalible, a horse will get ulcers from the stomach acid being pushed up into the esphogas. It was reccommended that horses never work on an empty stomach to prevent ulcers. It was also reccommended that horses were fed maybe 30 mins before a workout but, not much more, so as to avoid ulcers. She also mentioned feeding alfalfa to prevent and treat ulcers. My vet/chiro said that alfalfa acts like a tums because of the extra calcium in it. If your horse leaves his concentrates (ie grains) for hay, he is trying to self medicate because he has ulcers and it feels better to stop eating grain and eat alfalfa, or grass hay if he has no alfalfa. It was reccommended to me by my vet to feed a small amount of alfalfa with their grain so they can help themselves heal/prevent their ulcers. Actually my vet said to take the horse off of grain for awhile if ulcers were suspected. I have had great success with alfalfa added to the diet to get my slow grain eaters to eat more normally. For example, it worked with a horse I had in for some socializing. She would not eat grain very fast and would beg for hay even with a full bucket of grain. I mean, to me it is odd for a horse to leave grain for coastal!



I took her off grain and gave her alf for awhile instead. Then I added grain back after two weeks, still feeding her alfalfa. When I sent her home a few months later, she no longer ate slowly. Vet said he was positive she had ulcers. My friend is anti-alfalfa, so she has not had any since she returned home 2 years ago and still eats her grain quickly (at a comprable speed to her other minis). So if I was told my horse had ulcers, I would feed him before I worked him and I would also make sure he had alfalfa...WITHOUT grain (if it were me) at least for a little while.

The other thing you can do is give him a vitamin b shot. It is amazing how being low on b vitamins can make you sluggish and "off." I get a vitamin b shot about once a week!



It is hard to overdose on b vitamins too. My vet told me 2 cc for my 300lb minis. Did your recent vet check include any bloodwork? This won't help you to know about b vitamins (stored in cells, not in blood) but you can tell a lot about organ function by a good bloodwork up.

One last thing, not that it is not ill-fitting tack or soreness, but assuming or ruling those out... the more horses learn, the more they have in their arsenal to use against you!



It is possible, if nothing else comes out being the problem, that he is doing what any of us would do...anything we can to get out of working harder than necessary! If left without supervision or any sort of guidance at work, eventually most people would begin to do the bare minimum. He may have just figured out how to get you to let him be lazy! Now he is protesting having to work harder than he would like! OR he could be confused if he was trained by someone other than you. At first he was strong in his training and understanding. After awhile, he might be confused without a refresher. I second the suggestion of taking some lessons with a good driving trainer. If they tweek one tiny thing and it makes you and your horse happier, it is worth every penny!

Ok, Ok, I have babbled on long enough...probably no one is reading anymore! LOL


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 26, 2011)

brasstackminis said:


> Ok, Ok, I have babbled on long enough...probably no one is reading anymore! LOL


I read it! LOL. I thought you had some good points. I put both my ulcer-prone horses on a handful of alfalfa per meal as an additional counter-measure last spring and found that while they loved the alfalfa they then got very picky about their grass hay ("What is THIS awful stuff?? We want more alfalfa!") and it didn't seem to help with my one horse eating his grain or the other one not getting stressed and off his feed at shows. It also became a real problem to pack two kinds of hay when traveling and keep straight what they were getting when there were house-sitters or more than one person feeding.



In order to simplify the feeding routine I finally tried some U-Gard Pellets which have an alfalfa base and just about every good effective ingredient I'd ever heard of (aloe, kaolin, etc.) along with the basic antacid product and was STUNNED at the results. Within two days both horses were eating better even at home and now when we travel I don't even pack the Ulcergard paste we used to live by. Nobody goes off their feed, nobody acts colicky or gets upset in the trailer, both horses absolutely *hoover* up their food at every meal and the problem gelding paws for his grain, scarfs it all up and then gobbles all his hay just like a normal horse should. I couldn't believe it! It was like a miracle after seven years of fighting with him.





U-Gard and other antacid products won't cure an existing ulcer but I think they break the cycle where the horse expects that eating will bring pain so he doesn't want to eat. Kody wouldn't even take treats once he loaded on the trailer- you could almost see his stomach start cramping from nerves the moment he loaded. Now I give him a handful of U-Gard pellets, he loads right up and starts eating his hay.



I wasn't expecting that good of a result from the product (or any product!) so I was really pleased and just thought I'd share.

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 26, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I read it! LOL.
> 
> .................
> 
> ...


I read it too.



You made some very good points. I have been reading up on ulcers because it seems to be a huge problem with Minis and I have been wondering why. A quick tap on wood here but I have not had problems with ulcers among my horses and I have been wondering what the difference is.

Going back to full size horses and Pony Club days where we learned the rules of feeding a horse - little and often; water, hay, grain - in that order.

I feed my horses 4 times per day as I am home here with them so it is no problem. I feed hay free choice so they can pick out the really choice bits leaving the less palatable pieces and I don't feed grain until a horse can't keep enough weight on with hay alone - such as when they are getting too much exercise to exist on hay only. Sometimes they are leaving hay in their stall but it is only because they are too full to eat any more - that tells me it is time to cut back their hay a little and replace some of it with grain if they aren't at a weight I like. The show horses do get concentrated feeds and feed additives for their coat and condition and part of their hay portion is replaced by this. All the horses always have a bucket of water in their stall, I feed them their hay and then go about making up their buckets of concentrated feed, grain. They are happily and quietly munching on their hay while I am getting the buckets ready. They get their grain but not until they have gotten a good portion of hay into their bellies. Their is no "pawing for grain", "scarfing" or "gobbling".

In this day of people working and trying to keep horses at home it is difficult for some to schedule their horses in. Too many people are just throwing feed at them when it is convenient for them and I think this is a huge part of the problem regarding ulcers.

Brasstackminis: "She would not eat grain very fast and would beg for hay even with a full bucket of grain. I mean, to me it is odd for a horse to leave grain for coastal!"

It sounds to me like she is an intelligent horse who was trying to tell you something and you, as a good horsekeeper, listened to her. Kudos to you!


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 26, 2011)

Well being on UlcerGuard seemed to help, his behavior was a whole lot better too. But after a couple of days being off of it he has gone back down hill. So maybe just need something stronger, but probably be taking him back to the vet again this week. He has been getting alfalfa all year.


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## brasstackminis (Oct 26, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> He has been getting alfalfa all year.



My vet says that the actual alfalfa hay is the best...better than pellets, cubes or any other form. Not sure what form of alfalfa you are feeding. Maybe your guy can't do the grain you are feeding? It sure is a puzzle with these fur kids! Good thing we love them so much!


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 26, 2011)

He has been getting the cubes but for a month now I switched to regular alfalfa/timothy hay. I've been feeding him the same grain all year with no problems and now he struggles to eat a handful. But he gets real excited for his hay like he normally does for his grain. I think Nationals was just too long for him, defintelly was for me and I plan on taking a few days off of our stay for Nationals next year, may not even take him and just do limited showing I don't know.


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## brasstackminis (Oct 26, 2011)

If I had to guess, I'd say that the stress level of your recent competitions got him. I would take him off grain for a little while so his ulcers can heal. Then when the stomach lining has repaired itself, your grain will become a non issue again. That is what I would do if it was my fur kid. The fact that he would rather have hay and not grain is the give away for me!


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 26, 2011)

This is what I'm trying to give him right now. It's suppose to be a digestive aid along with vitamins/minerials and just gets a handful twice a day. It has been helping him and keep his weight up but since this past 2 days he's been turning his nose away and he's started to drop weight. I have hay in front of him all the time right now. In the past I have been giving him the mini/pony feed with great success but I think now I'll start just giving him the StayStrong pellets.

http://www.admani.com/AllianceEquine/StaySTRONG%20Metabolic%20Mineral%20Pellets.htm

I called the vet and said to give the UlcerGuard a few more days to see if he improves like he did last time and if he does give it for 3 more weeks. I tried calling a different vet for a second opinion but he is closed til tomorrow.


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## midnight star stables (Oct 26, 2011)

brasstackminis said:


> I just thought I would mention a little something here about ulcers. A few weeks ago I went to a seminar put on by an equine nutritionist (from Purina)about making hay stretch during our horrible drought and lack of hay.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I find this fascinating. I have a certain mare who I would love to try this with. She has always been a certain way, and is extremely smart, so it is hard to tell what is "her" and what could be ulcers. She doesn't have "classic" signs, just weird, little ones that I notice. I meant to have the vet pull blood a few weeks ago, but completely forgot (More focused on other horses who were sick) but plan to next time he is out, just to be safe. In the mean time, this is something I could try. Heck, I'm sure several of the horses would benefit from an all hay diet...



brasstackminis said:


> If I had to guess, I'd say that the stress level of your recent competitions got him. I would take him off grain for a little while so his ulcers can heal. Then when the stomach lining has repaired itself, your grain will become a non issue again. That is what I would do if it was my fur kid. The fact that he would rather have hay and not grain is the give away for me!


My question to you, is how do you "not" feed grain to one horse when those around him are getting it? I mean I can't take the young horses off their grain, and I know my family would not take the large horses off of their grain either. Is there any grain that isn't grain? Such as hay chunks or multi-vitamins? Or does that defeat the no grain diet purpose. Also is it ONLY alfalfa hay? It is very high in protein, isn't it? My parents have often expressed not wanting alfalfa only hay for that reason.

I'd love to hear your thoughts.

Leia, Where did you get your U-Gard Pellets? Not sure if I can get them over here.

To the OP; wishing you the best for a fast recovery for your boy.


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## targetsmom (Oct 26, 2011)

I did not read every word here so I might be repeating....

I have quite a bit of (failed) experience with ulcers, but some things might work on other horses. To solve the "what do you give the one with ulcers when everyone else gets grain?": I gave Max soaked alfalfa cubes, topped with a product called Stomach Soother, which is just pureed papaya. (Google it or you might even find it a a local feed shop). He adored them unless the ulcers were really bad. I could also add supplements to this. I have also heard that exercise itself is bad because of the empty stomach issue. Slow hay feeders are another great idea, as is anything that simulates grazing. Well, grazing is best! The Stomach Soother can also be given in a dosing syringe, which I would use as a first step whenever Max showed signs of pain. Sometimes that would be enough to ease the pain and get him to eat.

I also gave him tiny amounts of a complete senior feed which is about as much "not a grain" as you can get. Alfalfa pellet based, and relatively low in starch.

If the ulcers are active, you need to TREAT with Gastroguard/Ulcerguard (at the treatment dose) for a month or so. Preventive measures (such as U-Gard) at that stage is unlikely to help much.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 26, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> I feed my horses 4 times per day as I am home here with them so it is no problem. ... The show horses do get concentrated feeds and feed additives for their coat and condition and part of their hay portion is replaced by this. All the horses always have a bucket of water in their stall, I feed them their hay and then go about making up their buckets of concentrated feed, grain. They are happily and quietly munching on their hay while I am getting the buckets ready. They get their grain but not until they have gotten a good portion of hay into their bellies. Their is no "pawing for grain", "scarfing" or "gobbling".


Sometimes we seem to get our wires crossed, Lori, and I'm trying really hard not to take that last line about people throwing food at them when it's convenient personally given that you quoted me and seem to object to my choice of words.



My horses have large tubs of clear fresh water available at all times in a sheltered spot, I feed them three times a day, often with another hay snack thrown in if I'm home to give it, and I DO feed their hay at least ten minutes before their grain so they have taken out their initial munchies on a safe substance and don't dive into their grain. I apologize if the fact my horses like their grain and sometimes paw for it while chewing a mouthful of hay somehow indicates I'm a poor horsekeeper.



Neither of my horses rushes their grain consumption but after years of Kody frequently acting like he wanted grain, eating maybe a mouthful of it then looking regretful and unhappy and going back to his hay, you have to understand how happy it makes me to see him ask for his feed and not leave the bucket until he is done. My full-sized horses always acted like their concentrates were a special treat and so did Kody before he got ulcers, and it hurt me to see him clearly want it but backing away in learned avoidance even after 60 days of ulcer treatment.

I work darn hard to make sure my horses are kept in as natural a fashion as can be managed here in the middle of the suburbs and do my best to make sure they are happy. Both have full-time turnout in large paddocks with trees and natural terrain, frequent small feedings on copious roughage, only as much concentrates as is necessary to keep their toplines in good condition when they are in work, and while they have a snug barn they can choose to come and go as they please. My full-sized horses never had an ulcer or colic problem and lived to ripe old age in good health. Kody's just one of those horses who has problems, maybe because of the stress of his bad stifles all those years and then his back pain. Who knows? I feel as if you're assuming I've done something wrong to cause his problems (like feeding grain before hay) and I have to admit that hurts after all the effort I've put into trying to help him. I apologize if I'm reading more into your statements than you intended, this is an emotionally hot issue for me.



JMS Miniatures said:


> Well being on UlcerGuard seemed to help, his behavior was a whole lot better too. But after a couple of days being off of it he has gone back down hill. So maybe just need something stronger, but probably be taking him back to the vet again this week. He has been getting alfalfa all year.


That makes me think that he definitely has ulcers and needs a continued course of treatment. After the first time 30 days wasn't enough my vet had me do it for 45 and then taper off the treatment for another few weeks in graduated doses. That worked, but the problem soon came back without additional measures to prevent a new ulcer from forming.



midnight star stables said:


> Leia, Where did you get your U-Gard Pellets? Not sure if I can get them over here.


I buy them from my local feed store but SmartPak and Valley Vet and most other catalogues carry it too. Valley Vet

Leia


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## RhineStone (Oct 26, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> In this day of people working and trying to keep horses at home it is difficult for some to schedule their horses in. Too many people are just throwing feed at them when it is convenient for them and I think this is a huge part of the problem regarding ulcers.


I don't think that Lori was pointing her finger at anyone. This is a fact of life for most people. I'll admit, I don't feed my horses more than twice a day. My horses are turned out 23/7 in a herd (They are in for about an hour when I work some horse or futz around the barn.) I do use slow feeders when it is logical, but my horses come into the barn for their "grain". I do give them hay with it, though. I just have never "babied" my horses. Over the course of my professional life, I haven't had time to. I worked 45 min. from my house. Would it be better for their systems if I did feed them more often? Yeah, probably. But most people we know do the same thing, and have for years. Yes, that could be why we (collectively in the industry) see more instances of ulcers overall. If you have the time and resources to change up your system to be more "ulcer concious", go for it.

But the other thing I have heard is if you can't be there to feed them 3-4 times a day every day, don't get them started on it. When we go away for the day or for the weekend and have someone do our chores, we can't expect them to feed 3-4 times a day, so we don't have them on that system. It would screw them up more not to be fed consistently. Same goes for feeding every day at the same time. If you can't do it every day, don't get started on a routine like that. Our horses get fed somewhere between 6-9 every day in the morning, and 4-8 in the evening. They know it is _about_ feeding time, but they aren't pitching a fit if we are a little "late".

Myrna


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## brasstackminis (Oct 26, 2011)

midnight star stables said:


> My question to you, is how do you "not" feed grain to one horse when those around him are getting it? I mean I can't take the young horses off their grain, and I know my family would not take the large horses off of their grain either. Is there any grain that isn't grain? Such as hay chunks or multi-vitamins? Or does that defeat the no grain diet purpose. Also is it ONLY alfalfa hay? It is very high in protein, isn't it? My parents have often expressed not wanting alfalfa only hay for that reason.


I feed coastal like normal and give my ulcer suspect alfalfa hay in place of his grain. No one feels left out and the grain is not needed. I am not suggesting replacing anything other than the grain with some alfalfa...if they start getting too plump (never had that problem with the ones with ulcers) you can back off the amount of alfalfa.

I feed all my babies some alfalfa as well as any mare that is preggers or nursing. Everything in moderation, alfalfa is a very good addition to a diet...an example of how much, I split one flake between my going to be 14hh ish pony yearling and 3 minis ( with about half going to the pony foal) and the rest get only coastal from a roundbale. That is each feeding. The pony foal is just having so many growth spurts, it is hard to keep up with them with only coastal and Strategy. Mares in foal and lactating need more calcium and protien to give to the foal. In California, only a "low class" barn would not give at LEAST one flake of alfalfa a day. I know it is not that popular in other parts of the US, but I seldom heard the word ulcer in CA either. There might be something to that!


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 27, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Sometimes we seem to get our wires crossed, Lori, and I'm trying really hard not to take that last line about people throwing food at them when it's convenient personally given that you quoted me and seem to object to my choice of words.
> 
> 
> 
> I apologize if I'm reading more into your statements than you intended, this is an emotionally hot issue for me.Leia


Actually Leia, I wasn't pointing fingers at you or anyone else personally.



I have just noticed a preponderance of Minis coming down with ulcers lately, and actually more often now with full size horses as well, and have been wondering why that is. From what I have heard and observed it seems that it is because of rushed time schedules that don't allow for a more natural feed schedule and also because a lot of people are feeding far more cencentrates and much less hay. I also think that a lot of "colic's" in the past were undiagnosed ulcers.

I am lucky enough to be home all day with my horses and have a husband that can feed the same way when I am not at home. I don't adhere to a strict time schedule so that my horses never know EXACTLY when feeding time is going to be so don't get worked up and anxious about feeding time. Basically I just keep hay in their stalls all day so that if they are not out in the paddock where they can nibble on grass they can nibble on hay at any given moment. The way you worded your post it sounded like your horses were getting their grain either first or at the same time as their hay causing them to mow into their grain while ignoring their hay and that has been something I have seen many times at many Mini barns not because the owner isn't trying to feed them properly but due to time constraints in the owner's life. Hay eaten after concentrates pushing the feed through their system too quickly making it less utilized and also causing problems with their digestion.

I also have seen that many Mini owners feed mainly concentrated feeds in place of hay with the mistaken idea that hay will give them a pot belly.

Years ago sweet feed was considered a very good choice of feed for horses but that was back when the grooms/board barn owners took care of feeding and the horses could be fed smaller amounts more frequently. Lately, with more and more people keeping horses on their own property whilst working full time more horses are being fed twice daily, morning and night, sweet feed has been causing problems because horse's systems can't deal with the sudden lumps of feed - sweet feed is no longer a good choice for many horses. Horses are meant to eat small portions frequently.

I know that you have always done your best by your horses.


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## susanne (Oct 27, 2011)

.

Do ulcers occur more frequently these days, or do more people recognize them as the problem?

I tend to suspect the latter.

.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 27, 2011)

susanne said:


> Do ulcers occur more frequently these days, or do more people recognize them as the problem?
> I tend to suspect the latter.


A very good point.

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 28, 2011)

susanne said:


> .
> 
> Do ulcers occur more frequently these days, or do more people recognize them as the problem?
> 
> ...


That's what I meant when I said that I think a lot of "colics" in the past were actually ulcers but even then I think more horses are "colic-ing" now than ever before and I think it is because we are working their schedules around us rather than as before.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 28, 2011)

I have always fed a large amount of chaff with my feeds- I would not, in fact, ever feed grain without the bulk of the chaff and usually beet pulp, to help carry it through the system. I have had one mare with what we call "ulcers" (of course it is not ulcers, very few horses go on to get ulcers. They have what I have, a build up of gastric or duodenal acid, that causes extreme pain and will lead to ulcers if not treated) And she was very ill at one point. Once treated she recovered quickly- she has always been highly strung and so reacts badly to pain. I put her on Ranitidene (merely because I get it for myself so it is free!) before every show and she was fine after that.

When I have a horse stalled they have hay all the time, and are usually fed three times a day- once in the morning, when they let me know they are ready by throwing their feed bins over the door and hopping up and down, one when they are out in their paddocks at lunchtime, and one in the evening when they have to walk in quietly and behave, and stand and do their "pretty horse" act for showing, before being let into their stalls- they also have to have their blankets back on, if they have been outside naked, so it is discipline before goodies at my place.

All I can tell you is that this works, perfectly, for me.

Is it the only way that works?

Obviously not, but it might be worth trying......


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 28, 2011)

The vet wants me to continue to use the UlcerGuard for 4 more weeks. He didn't say to taper it off but after talking to more people about it they said to do that. Its just doesn't seem to be doing the trick as it did the first time. He was eating a tiny bit better the past couple of times but this morning not so much. Again this is just a handful of mineral pellets. I called another vet for a second opinion and basiclly told me the same thing. I also bought him a product called Karbo Combo thats a Immune building suppelment and that will help clean up the digestive tract and has been known to help horses with ulcers. I have thought about giving this to him before the ulcers showed up so decided to get it now. Also once he gets better after looking at the mini feed more closely with other people I've decided that the mini feed just doesn't work for him and going to be buying him something that doesn't requre so much grain and thats really low in starch so that way he has more room to eat more hay. Considering how much color and shine he lost for Nationals being on the mini feed for a few months I just don't think he is digesting it correctly. Monday going back to the vets regardless either to buy more tubes of U-Guard or telling the vet he's not improving.


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