# Lunging



## MajorClementine (Dec 17, 2011)

I've never had a problem starting a horse lunging before. BUT... my mare is making me crazy. She refuses to figure it out. I've tried having someone help me by leading her, we've tried round pen, I'm running out of ideas. She just runs through the middle. She has also started turning her butt towards me in the pasture which I'm not loving. She is turning into a teenager and I'm out of my mind. Please help


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 17, 2011)

How old is this mare? If it was just in the round pen or on the lunge that she was giving you trouble I would suspect that she just isn't getting it yet but because she is disrespecting you in the pasture as well I think she IS getting it and has decided she doesn't want to do it. Whether this is because she doesn't respect you enough to do as you ask her or if she has a physical problem that is making her resent the work, and therefore resent you, is a question I would be asking. Is she 100% sound? If you can rule out any physical reason then I would take her back in the round pen and make her listen to you. Don't worry about her cutting into the middle so much to start although you can use your whip to direct her to the outside of the ring, just concentrate on directing her in turns and changes of gait including whoa. Be very careful to make it clear to her when she changes direction or gait that it is your decision and not hers. Keep on her hip and sending her forward. Try to see when she is thinking "evasion" and be one step ahead of her preventing that turn or change of gait BEFORE it happens. Once you establish that you can control her movements and you are the dominant partner she will start to listen better and work better for you. That is when she will settle into work,start to use the entire ring and stop cutting "corners". The unfortunate aspect of this behaviour, if there is no physical reason for it, is that she is quite likely a horse that doesn't enjoy working and may not be an enjoyable partner for driving in the long run.


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 18, 2011)

I agree I would start back in the round pen. Me personally I wouldn't want her to cut in the center due to the fact that she's turning her butt towards you, she could kick at you if she runs into the center towards you. She may not but as a precaution I would make her get away from your personal space. I would make her canter around at first and establish direction. If she is going around good, not turning towards the fence then I would give her a break. I would go in front of the drive line which is in front of the shoulder and step back and kind of like drawing her in towards you. You goal is for her to turn and face you. If she stops but isn't facing the center try and help at first by getting her to move her forequarters over and if she does and faces you let her rest for like 5 minutes unless she decides to move again. If she turns towards the fence just try getting her to face you again but if she still doesn't get it make her go around a few times. Once she faces you and you let her have a break point and send her off towards the other direction and do the whole process again. Once she is starting to get it just let her trot around and start establishing a change or direction. Once you get really good at it pretty soon she will follow you all the way around the round pen. The important thing is for her not to turn in towards the fence. Get in there after her and make her go the original direction.

Once they are good in the round pen then I start teaching them pivioting their hindquarters, backing, pivioting their forequarters. Then I start lounging them. I don't care what gait they are on, prefer trot at first, if she pulls on you pull back on the lead. Basiclly point to the direction you want them to go, make them go around a few times and if you want them to stop look at their hindquarters and kind of swing the whip towards their hind end. You don't want to hit them unless they aren't paying attention to you. But once they understand they will pivot their hindquarters facing you, point and then change direction. Once they are good at that you can step in front of the drive line point then they will do sort of like a roll back and turn. Its pretty cool once everything comes together. Its all based on body language pretty much, no voice aids except like clucking.


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## Minimor (Dec 18, 2011)

> and if you want them to stop look at their hindquarters and kind of swing the whip towards their hind end. You don't want to hit them unless they aren't paying attention to you. But once they understand they will pivot their hindquarters facing you,


 This advice works only if a person wants the horse to stop and turn to face the handler. Many people do not want this. Myself, I want the horse to stop where he is at on the circle and stand facing the direction of travel. I do NOT want him turning to face me when he stops.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 18, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> I agree I would start back in the round pen. Me personally I wouldn't want her to cut in the center due to the fact that she's turning her butt towards you, she could kick at you if she runs into the center towards you. She may not but as a precaution I would make her get away from your personal space. I would make her canter around at first and establish direction. If she is going around good, not turning towards the fence then I would give her a break. I would go in front of the drive line which is in front of the shoulder and step back and kind of like drawing her in towards you. You goal is for her to turn and face you. If she stops but isn't facing the center try and help at first by getting her to move her forequarters over and if she does and faces you let her rest for like 5 minutes unless she decides to move again. If she turns towards the fence just try getting her to face you again but if she still doesn't get it make her go around a few times. Once she faces you and you let her have a break point and send her off towards the other direction and do the whole process again. Once she is starting to get it just let her trot around and start establishing a change or direction. Once you get really good at it pretty soon she will follow you all the way around the round pen. The important thing is for her not to turn in towards the fence. Get in there after her and make her go the original direction.
> 
> Once they are good in the round pen then I start teaching them pivioting their hindquarters, backing, pivioting their forequarters. Then I start lounging them. I don't care what gait they are on, prefer trot at first, if she pulls on you pull back on the lead. Basiclly point to the direction you want them to go, make them go around a few times and if you want them to stop look at their hindquarters and kind of swing the whip towards their hind end. You don't want to hit them unless they aren't paying attention to you. But once they understand they will pivot their hindquarters facing you, point and then change direction. Once they are good at that you can step in front of the drive line point then they will do sort of like a roll back and turn. Its pretty cool once everything comes together. Its all based on body language pretty much, no voice aids except like clucking.


I apologize JMS but I am pretty proficient in the round pen and this has even me confused??? I may be misreading you so perhaps you could clarify.

When I am the one holding the whip I don't see a horse being able to kick at me with any effect other than getting some punishment back which should certainly help establish the fact that they should NOT be kicking at me.

You are asking them to follow you in the round pen as a first goal? That is a pretty lofty ideal for a horse that has been showing total disrespect. My first goal would be to have them allow me to direct their movement from which respect and leadership will evolve.

You say the drive line is "just in front of the shoulder"? And you look at the hip and swing the whip at their butt to stop them? This is contrary to my experience with horses in the round pen. I look at the hip to move them and step in front of the girthline to stop or turn them. Hovering on the girthline approximately keeps them moving forward.

I would also question that, as this is a potential driving horse (we are on the driving forum), you are suggesting "no voice aids"? I find the round pen the perfect place to introduce and establish all those voice aids that will become necessary once this horse is in the shafts.


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## shorthorsemom (Dec 18, 2011)

I had a similar situation with a teenage gelding I was training. He would turn his butt to me and try to initiate play in the field and when trying to train him to lunge he would cut right across the middle and run out on the ends. My trainer and I started all over again at leading first... She would be on one side and I on the other and we used two lead ropes attached to either side of his halter so he couldnt spin and couldn't point his butt an either one of us. We led him everywhere like that, walk, trot, halt, turn.... then began lunging training all over again.

I would stand in the middle of our round pen with the rope and the lunge whip and my trainer was on his outside with a lead rope attached to his halter and was keeping him all the way to the outside and going in a circle at a walk. We got the commands clear in his head for going both directions, walk and halt both directions. When he was clearly getting it at the walk, we stood together in the circle in the middle me holding the lunge line and my trainer stood next to me with a driving whip,. We weren't hitting him, he didn't need a tap, just using the whip to give some direction at a safe distance so he would stay out on the lungeline. With two of us working together the timing was so much better than when I tried to do it myself and I think the timing was the reason we were successful...

I used the lead and my trainer would work with me to keep him out on the lunge line and helped me correct him when he cut in. No tangling problems, we stood together and when necessary, she would help drive him back out and then move back to the center. Didn't take long to click on his light bulb. We then worked a the trot and achieved canter and all transitions including halt.

I am not the best writer so pardon if this sounds garbled, hard to describe, but it worked so beautifully and I had struggled for quite some time with my boy by myself, that I am attempting to share what we did in case it might help give some ideas.


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 18, 2011)

I don't want the horse into my personal space, especially if he is showing his butt towards me out in the field. So I don't want the horse running in the middle. Thats all I was saying.

Following me around the roundpen is the FINIAL goal. The first thing I want them to learn is to establish direction. Make them keep going around without them turning into the fence or before I ask them to turn.

Yes I was talking about the girthline as the drive line. Just couldn't find the words to say it. I go in front of the drive line to stop them but at the same time I back up to draw them in so they will learn to face me. Me personally them facing me is a sign of respect. She mentioned how her horse was showing her butt to her, well this is the way to change that, at least for me.

I'm sorry I don't use voice aids in the round pen. And all 3 of mine are driving horses and they do just fine with using body language as training. Plus she never mentioned that this was a driving horse. This method works for me and has done me wonders for horses who don't like to be caught. One for example I had to corner just to catch her and just a couple days working in the round pen I could catch her out in a 5 acre field.


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## Jill (Dec 18, 2011)

If your horse is old enough in the round pen, I think you need to pop her a bit with the lunge whip. It's important they lunge in both directions at YOUR direction. They will favor one side to the other just as your or I favor our right or left hands. I'm not saying to whip the tar out of your horse, but to basically let her feel the whip to get her going right and to respect the middle of the round pen is YOUR space. So much of what you can accomplish in a round pen hinches upon making the horse aware of who is the partner in charge

Years ago, a friend of mine had her large 2yo filly essentially charging her in the round pen and I just cannot count the ways that that is not acceptable and how dangerous. Minis are horses. Period. Train them as such.


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## MajorClementine (Dec 18, 2011)

Just to clarify a few points I should have in the beginning. Yes, I am wanting to use her as a driving horse. That's why I posted here but I should have stated it as well. Also she will be a 2 year old next year.

I do believe she is 100% sound. I've checked her over and had our farrier (very good with minis) out not to long ago and he said feet look good.

She has always been very willing to do what I ask. We've gone on lots of walks. This attitude thing has just been in the last month. She's never pointed her butt at me before. She's never done anything other than walk right up to me. She used to love jogging with me on a lead but, again in the last month, she has decided that she's not interested. That's when I had the farrier out to make sure there wasn't a foot problem.

I hope she doesn't come to resent working, I would like to drive her. But I know from working with big horses, that if they don't like the work it's better to find something they do like than force them.

For now it's looking like back to the round pen and leading basics again. Maybe I confused her along the way?? We usually have snow by now but this year I"m still in the clear so we'll keep at it in the round pen until we can't.


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## shelterwood (Dec 18, 2011)

My coming three year old mare was a hellion when I got her.....never had been so much as looked at by a human let alone haltered or led. To get her safely out of the barbed wire paddock she was in with her many paddock mates, we had to get a rope on her, rather than try to corral her onto the trailer, for fear of her running the barbed wire fence. Well we were a bit sneaky because we had to be, and she of course ended up thinking even further that humans are no good.

When I got her home, she was released into a small paddock with safe fencing with her sister, but with no halter, because there are trees etc that I was worried about and would rather her have no halter than get hung up on something just for ease of catching. Well, it took a while, but I built trust and got her haltered with a catch strap on it and left it over a weekend while we were home, and got her used to touch and leading, somewhat.

Well, this little filly just never got over her lack of trust/respect for the human kind, and I use those two words together because I do sometimes think that what we read as "sass" and "attitude" are fear responses, sometimes!! Depends greatly on the horse. In this horse though, I think it was fear. She was much the same age as your mini, fall of her yearling year.

I decided that round penning her would be a good way to go to establish trust and leadership, and only had this as a goal due to her age (another factor you may be dealing with, and rather than thinking she may not like to work, I would consider that she may just be too young to work, and needs to mature in body and mind before labeling her either way). I picked a cool afternoon and took her in and did basically what was described here already, I made her move out and only change speed or direction of travel by my command, both body language and voice aids, at a walk and trot only. I was waiting for the tell tale signs that a young horse will display when they are beginning to understand and give to your authority, which is licking at the mouth, head down, possible some blowing/clearing of the nose, trying to stop and turn into the center of the ring to face you. I agree that I don't always want a horse to face me in the round pen, but that is much later in training when they have learned what is expected of them in whoa/stand situation. At this point with such a youngster learning basic respect and rules, turning in to face the handler is a classic sign that they are ready to give and as the classic phrase goes "join up". Now, this filly was STUBBORN, and it took nearly 2 hours of slow and steady work to have her finally understanding that I was in charge, and showing all of these signs above. But, giving in to your self doubt, thirst, or boredom before the point where the horse talks to you and tells you he/she is listening and ready will only set you back as the lesson has not been learned.

So, once she was showing all the signs, I asked for a whoa, which she knew very little of the word, but by body language of stepping towards the shoulder, dropping your gaze, and ceasing all movement of your own, she did. I moved towards her and was able to touch her all over, sack her out with a towel, pick up her front feet, and generally be with her without all of her pent up fear. Yes, she was tired, but I wasn't galloping her for two hours, I allowed her breaks at a walk, but on MY terms only, and if she picked up speed without being told, I drove her forward even faster. We also did some changes of direction, which had a command of reverse, and were indeed a rollback on her haunches toward the fenceline, achieved by abruptly stepping in front of the line of her shoulder and dropping the lunge whip sharply to the ground in front of her as well. It should be noted that she was never once touched at all by the whip, it simply wasn't needed. So it's not about exhaustion, but being tired is OK, it's about her learning that humans are in charge, but nothing bad will happen either, and a beautiful release can happen.

This mare, who could have been read as disrespectful as she did swing her butt towards me at times prior to this, is now actually easier to train than her sister who didn't get this type of single, intense session in the round pen because she had been handled some and at the time didn't seem to need it. And, this filly does like to work, and eagerly goes out ground driving down the road and onto trails, pulls small logs, and is easy to be with. So, don't give up. It sounds to me like you're on the right track, and remember yearlings are babies!! Hope that all made sense.....just my story.

Katie


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## Sandee (Dec 18, 2011)

MajorClementine said:


> Just to clarify a few points I should have in the beginning. Yes, I am wanting to use her as a driving horse. That's why I posted here but I should have stated it as well. Also she will be a 2 year old next year.
> 
> I do believe she is 100% sound. I've checked her over and had our farrier (very good with minis) out not to long ago and he said feet look good.
> 
> ...


Don't get discouraged. IJMO, it sounds like she was going along with you before and enjoying herself. Now you are asking her to do something she either doesn't quite "get" or doesn't enjoy. So she probably didn't respect you from the beginning. You have to let horses know you are the Boss! You have to be the lead mare. If she respects you she'd never turn tail to you and she'd also probably work for you.

Just start over teaching her like she didn't know anything and work slowly. You'll find the point where she starts to object and then you must be the boss whether it by words "NO" or by a quick smart smack sort of depends on the situation where she gets "stuck".


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## MajorClementine (Dec 18, 2011)

Sandee said:


> Don't get discouraged. IJMO, it sounds like she was going along with you before and enjoying herself. Now you are asking her to do something she either doesn't quite "get" or doesn't enjoy. So she probably didn't respect you from the beginning. You have to let horses know you are the Boss! You have to be the lead mare. If she respects you she'd never turn tail to you and she'd also probably work for you.
> 
> Just start over teaching her like she didn't know anything and work slowly. You'll find the point where she starts to object and then you must be the boss whether it by words "NO" or by a quick smart smack sort of depends on the situation where she gets "stuck".



Starting to wonder if this is the case. She went along with me before because she enjoyed it and she was always well behaved. She never really gave me a need to establish myself as boss and as a result I guess I never did. I think because she is small I let this part slide. I would have never let it get this way with one of my big horses. I'm guilty of forgetting that, despite their size, they are still horses.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 20, 2011)

You aren't alone!



At least you recognized the problem before it has become a REAL problem. It is always more effective training a difficult horse than one that is agreeable so consider yourself lucky that she is now putting up some resistance. The two of you will get past this and learn from it and your mare will be all the better for it.


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## MajorClementine (Dec 20, 2011)

So we were out working today and the little snot decided to rear up at me. She got a bit of a "what for" for that trick



. That's not something I tolerate! After that we went for a walk working on our stopping and trotting and things were rough at first but we just kept repeating it until she did it my way. We didn't have any other problems. And when I went out in her pasture later she didn't give me the butt. She stood facing me and I walked up and scratched her ears as a truce. I think that the respect (or lack there of) was our biggest problem. So now we just have to keep working on it.


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## jleonard (Dec 21, 2011)

I have not read all of the responses, so forgive me if I am being repetitive.

I love lunging and think it is a very valuable and often misused or underused tool. I never let my horses turn in on the circle, I find it disrespectful, although I know a lot of people see it as a sign of submission. When I first started out with horses I was taught to lunge using a round pen and we would step in front of the horse's shoulder to make them spin around and change direction. When we said whoa the horse would immediately turn into the circle, and some even walked in to meet you in the middle. The problem with this approach is that the horse starts making decisions on their own and it become difficult to keep them from changing direction or cutting in whenever they please. Through Pony Club I learned the way that they teach their members to lunge. Although I still feel they make too big a deal out of lunging, I do like their approach and it makes for a much more responsive horse who can do actual work on the lunge, not just run madly in a circle until they are tired.

I like having a round pen to start them in, although I no longer have one at my disposal, so have had to start the majority of my horses without one and all of them have turned out well. The pen does help to teach them to go on a circle though without trying to run out like they would in a larger area. I would still keep the horse on the lunge line, even if you do have a round pen to use. If not, it is like restarting them when you introduce the line, and with the line you have a better means of communicating with them. When lunging the goal should be to form a triangle with the horse as the base, the line and the whip as the sides, and you as the point. Do not let the end of the line drag the ground, this always drives me nuts! Not only does it prohibit you from being able to properly use the line, it is also a safety hazard if it gets tangled between your legs. Neatly fold it and keep the excess in your whip hand. You will find that this makes shortening and lengthening the line much easier and you can make quick adjustments and be more precise. Body language is so important in lunging, you need to stand up tall and firm in the center, do not walk around in circles with the horse! You should think about pivoting around on one heel and staying in place, which is easier said than done! I teach my horses to send and collect on the line at every gait. I once heard a driving clinician say the horse should have three distinct trots, I find this to be true of every gait. Also, when I say whoa, I want an immediate response. This does not mean that the horse has to slam on the brakes, but it does mean that I want to see them shift their weight back and slow their gait. In the beginning, I don't mind if it takes a couple of seconds for them to register what is being asked, but as they gain experience I expect a prompt downward transition. I also have clear verbal cues, I talk a lot when lunging my horses. There are different inflections to my voice for upward and downward transitions, and my horses know exactly what is being asked. It is important to make your cues very clear. When I have my horses halt, they need to stay out on the circle and not turn in, and wait patiently for me to come to them to switch the line over before we switch directions. I never have them change directions without halting, switching the line, and turning them around myself. They must then wait for me to get back to the center at which point I will ask them to move on.

When your mare tries to cut in, point the whip at her shoulder and use your body language to push her out. You can take a step towards her and growl at her, and if necessary don't be afraid to pop her on the shoulder with the whip. Most horses will get the picture pretty quickly. I have only had two horses who continued to push the issue, and I found that both of them did better when double lunged. I do not know if you are familiar with double lunging, but to do this you will need a surcingle and two lungelines. Run the outside line from the bit through a ring on the outside of the surcingle, usually the lowest one is the best. From there run it around her haunches, in the curve above her hocks. The inside line should be run from the bit to the inside ring on the surcingle then directly to you in the center. With horses who just can't understand staying out on the circle, this gives them the guidance and support that they need. This will also make it an easy transition when it comes time to start longlining, and having that line around their haunches often makes them track up better behind.

I'm sorry if I am rambling on and telling you things you already know, but as I said, I love lunging and get carried away whenever I talk about it! I hope she comes around soon for you!


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## studiowvw (Dec 21, 2011)

...and you can certainly teach her to stop by facing you now in the beginning. As you move on in training you can teach stopping on the circle.

The first does not destroy the second!


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## jleonard (Dec 21, 2011)

studiowvw said:


> ...and you can certainly teach her to stop by facing you now in the beginning. As you move on in training you can teach stopping on the circle.
> 
> The first does not destroy the second!


I have found that it can be a very hard habit to break once learned, so I prefer to just start them stopping the way I like. Maybe this isn't the case with all horses, it may have just been too ingrained in my few that I got that were trained that way. They just couldn't figure out what I was asking, but they had been turning in for years, so who knows.


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## studiowvw (Dec 21, 2011)

A way to teach it if there is an ingrained habit is to walk on the circle with them until they are stopping straight, then start to walk a smaller circle as you get success, until you can get it from the centre. Of course you need a different cue or command for the stop on the circle.


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## MajorClementine (Dec 22, 2011)

I am so glad I asked you guys. I am learning a lot from this thread. I'm noting some things that I have been doing wrong and am excited to try some new methods. I've noticed this little mare likes to "try" you at first every time we work. It's my fault from not being stern in the beginning but I figure if I stay constant now she'll get the idea that I'm in charge. It has been fun spending more time working with her.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 22, 2011)

MajorClementine said:


> I am so glad I asked you guys. I am learning a lot from this thread. I'm noting some things that I have been doing wrong and am excited to try some new methods. I've noticed this little mare likes to "try" you at first every time we work. It's my fault from not being stern in the beginning but I figure if I stay constant now she'll get the idea that I'm in charge. It has been fun spending more time working with her.


I doubt very much that it is "your fault". This mare thinks for herself and that is a good thing. When a horse "tries" you and then finally gives to you, you KNOW it has learned something. A horse that just always goes along you can never be sure it has grasped what you are asking and when push comes to shove it may not do what you ask if it comes up against a situation it doesn't like, whereas the horse that has actually truly learned to give to you can fall back on it's training in the same type situation. Your mare is the kind of horse that will make a better partner in the long run because she does think for herself and will be able to quite possibly save your butt when you come up lacking at some point. I much prefer a horse with a mind of it's own that learns to be a partner.


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## studiowvw (Dec 22, 2011)

And I find the best way to establish leadership is to be AWARE of the horse and yourself, and PARTICULAR about persevering until the horse does what you ask.

My biggest flaw is saying, "Oh, she didn't understand me" or "Oh, she almost did it" or "I'll get her to do that right next time."

You don't have to beat them up, get tough or mean - just persist until you get what you asked for. (Or something close that you can build on for next time.)

Here is a link to my liberty work with my QH (sorry, my mini doesn't have the liberty skills yet but we have been improving that.)



To get her to come off the circle and come in, I look at her hip. To get her to stop on the circle, I put a "blocking" type cue in front of her. This does not happen overnight




but can be developed over time.

Hope it is ok to post this link. Sorry it is not my mini.


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