# AMHR National Late Entries



## ohmt

I came across this post on fb and after her request it be put here am posting this for the person who wrote the letter. I am not taking any stance-just putting this up for discussion.

I know many of you are aware of the six late envelops to the AMHR Nationals, this is my opinion on it and if you agree, please contact your director.

August 6, 2012

Subject: Six Entry Envelopes – 2012 AMHR Nationals

Dear ASPC/AMHR Board Member:

I have been made aware of the heavy task you have at hand about the six late entry envelops for the 2012 Nationals. I felt compelled to write to the board and ask that you go into this meeting with a clear mind, set aside all prejudice, all that you have read on the Internet and all that has come to you by way of hear say.

I am writing to you today to ask you to consider the following before casting your vote on whether or not to accept the six envelops.

This is not about any one trainer so busy getting horses ready for another show that he forgot about submitting entries. This is not about a young trainer who thought the entry date was later. This is not about the three envelops that went out a day late together because of the stalling requirements. This is about many members who relied on someone else to send in their entries and some how, for what ever reason, the entries did not get post dated July 25, 2012.

This is about the young man who has been involved with this registry as a youth and now a young adult. This young man has been crippled since birth; he could never play soccer or football with his school friends due to his disability. But what he could do as a youth was participate with showing his horses with this registry. What he can do is feel proud about his accomplishments with the registry in spite of his disabilities’. What he can do is feel grateful that this registry has made it possible for him to have great self esteem and confidence, to feel good about himself, to be able to feel that he is competitive in a sport in spite of his handicap, that he can obtain ribbons and trophies like his school friends do in a football game or soccer. What he has done is looked forward to this event all year and worked hard to qualify his horses as an amateur as he had done for so many years before as a youth participating at local shows and the registries’ National shows.

This is about the member who is fighting for his life with cancer. It is about him, his wife and daughter who for so many years have been a part of this registry. For so many years have gone to the National show and now this may be his last National show with his family before he loses his battle to cancer. This may be his one last time seeing his daughter and wife show together.

This is about a 51 year women with health issues for many years who gave up the big horses and bought her first miniature 21 years ago. She has been a committed member of this registry for all these years. This is about a woman who has shown her horses for these 21 years on a local level only. She could never go to the nationals for one reason or another but through the years when she could afford it, sent her horse to the nationals with another person. She has never been able to share in the moment of her horse getting that ribbon at the Nationals even if it was last place or no placing at all. This is about a woman whose sister gave her the gift of paying her way to the Nationals this year so that she could drive in an amateur class with her horse to experience the excitement and thrill of being there.

This is about the many youth that have looked forward to the Nationals all year, youth that worked hard getting their horses qualified and ready for the show as they have done previous years. These are good wholesome kids who with their families look forward to enjoying this event participating in the classes and seeing their horse show friends from other states. This is about kids who have earned money to help their parents with the expenses of Nationals. Youth that will work extra hard with their studies to get the time off from school to go to this show in September. This is about youth that we are proud of and see them as future adult members that we need to hold dear to us so that this registry will continual to grow in spite of the countries difficult economy and horrific acts of violence towards humanity. Yes, this is about the youth entries that were in those envelopes.

This is about the senior couple that missed the deadline by depending on an automated postal machine that was offline that last night to mail entries. This is about that senior member who may not be able to go to nationals next year because his health isn’t what it used to be in his younger days as a member of this registry. This could be his last Nationals with his wife, his adult kids and his grandchildren. We just never know what the next day in life will bring us.

This is not about that trainer who failed to get his clients entries in! This is about his client(s) that live in another country that were looking forward to coming to America and participating in this wonderful event. It’s about this organization building good relations with members from other countries and making them feel welcome and showing them that we in this registry open our arms to them and embrace them as members.

This isn't about six late envelops! This is about the many families, the youth, and members from other countries that are part of this registry. They did not set out to break any rule; they are members who were committed to coming to the 2012 AMHR Nationals.

I ask that you not look at this as rule that has been broken but look at this from your heart, your compassion for other people and their individual’s reasons to be at the 2012 Nationals.

I ask that you see this as an opportunity to work things out so that no one is disappointed because of human error. To understand that allowing them to participate is not in any way detrimental to this registry or the show. To realize these members have been faithful to our registry and committed as members. They want to be a part of the AMHR National show that will create memories and a sense of gratitude to the board for understanding and forgiving human error.

Respectfully,

Lea Dill – Member 6614


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## ohmt

The rule in question: (Section XVI Page 12)

4. The closing entry date for the AMHR National Show shall be determined by the Show Management. No entries for new horses will be accepted after closing date of AMHR National Show. No post entries will be accepted at the AMHR National Show. All horses must be in the show program. Classes may be added, but no new horse may be entered after the closing date. No horse substitutions without a veterinarian certificate of horse’s inability to show.

This rule comes into play as well: (Section XVI Page 12)

5. No post entering of youth classes. Neither horse nor youth can be changed after the closing date.


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## allaboutminis

Rules are rules! If they allow this to happen then the ones from area 3 that did not get to go to the Dixiland show that is held every year these ones are out of going to Nationals because this one man club cancelled 2 days before the show was to happen. So these people should be able to bring the horses and they should be able to show them at nationals! Don't care who you are rules are rules and they should be followed


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## Frosted Creek Farm

Everyone has to travel to get qualified to go to Nationals.


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## allaboutminis

Yes everyone has to travel but there was people coming from Ny to get their horses qualified for nationals so what is the diffance then


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## ohmt

After thinking about it for a little bit, I think someone should propose a rule change that gives a 1 weeks "grace period" in which late entries are allowed for double the fee. This would keep a deadline and yet give that extra week for those who have something come up last minute, because those situations DO arise and people should be given the chance to get their things in order.

That would not help the people in this instance, but I agree that rules are rules and it should not be made an exception for these people what has been enforced since the 90's. I'm sure there have been cases like this every year since the rule was passed. A shame and I feel incredibly sorry for those that the letter was regarding. I know one of them is a member overseas that had plane and lodgings already paid for for himself and family. It is nonrefundable and his horse will now not be able to compete due to late entry. But, in previous years AMHR has not allowed late entries in the case of family deaths. The rule NEEDS to be changed, but at the moment it is what it is and I don't think AMHR can risk the chance of being sued for previous denials if they accept these late entries.


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## allaboutminis

For the one that is overseas the AMHR is not to blame it is the trainers fault. It was posted in serval places that it had to be posted marked by the 25th! If they can't read that then there is a problem. Rules are rules to be followed by all don't care if you are a big time trainer or a small time trainer or someone just starting out or if you are BOD!


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## ohmt

Never said it was




I am saying, it is a shame that they are in the situation and hopefully someone can submit a rule change so in the future these problems can be remedied. I'm not sure why the anger toward them being upset with the situation. If I was in their shoes, and I guarantee if you were too, we would be just as heartbroken. I may not agree that they should be an exception, but I do feel for them.


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## allaboutminis

Yes I would be heartbroken by this too,but there is rules set in place. Yes I have seen who posted the message on fb and it is a shame as this person was a Bod at one time. Anyways as I said I don't care who you are and what you might have going on but they knew when the deadline was. So what should the Bod do give them a break. This is what is wrong at the shows anyways as people don't get their stuff in on time they don't want the late fees but still want to show! This is our national show so No the rules should not be changed !


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## ohmt




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## Jacki

ohmt said:


>


Have you been waiting for the perfect opportunity to use this emoticon? Well here it is, so cute! I know I'd do more than smack my forehead if I missed the National entry deadline!

Jacki Loomis


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## JMS Miniatures

Unless they give them a penalty it will not be fair to those of us who got our entries in on time. It's a sad situation, I know the show can use that money, but if the board allows them to show without fault then what's going to stop others from doing the same thing. I don't think this would have helped the situation but what I would like to see is them getting the show bill up at least a couple of weeks earlier then when they have been doing it. It gave us less then a month to get entries sent in but I don't know about everyone else but I felt pressured at getting everything done, mailing it out to my friend so we can be stalled together and early enough so they can send it in on time.

I've also heard that they are laxing on the qualification forms this year since it's new but IMO it's a bad habit to be getting into.


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## allaboutminis

Have to agree with you jms! But they still should not be able to show. Have friends that missed a show because a club cancelled 2 days before so they should be able to show too! Rules are set in place for a reason! Like I said early I really don't care what you got going on in life or what has happen! These trainers knew when the deadline was so they should of gotten the stuff in! We all can check the website and find out when the deadline was! Why put the blame on AMHR and not the ones sending their stuff in! And if you can't check the website call the show manger and get them to send you a show bill just how hard is that. Yes I do feel for these people that has paid their dues to get to the nationals but they also should of checked to make sure their trainer got their stuff in. Have seen rules bended for other that are big time trainers in the past! I am so happy to see AMHR not bending this time. The people that is so hurt by this pick your trainers better the next time! Done with this. Sick of the excuses made for these people!


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## disneyhorse

I don't exactly know the situation but rules are rules. Everyone has hardships and tragedies in their lives, and some people are not any more important than others. Otherwise, how do you draw a line? It's too big of a show, the show managers have too much on their plate already, for sob stories to start flooding in...

I feel bad that circumstances didn't go the right way. If my trainer took my money and didn't enter my horse correctly I'd surely be firing the trainer. Trainers are paid to be on top of their game and get things done not only right, but well. That trainer better be doing something to make up to their clients, not trying to weasel the Registry. Others who don't have clout or sob stories have never had the opportunity.

Andrea


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## minimomNC

While I agree with rules are rules. The one thing is that one person had the entries there on time, the post office meter was not working and they have a letter from the post office that the envelopes were there on time. So do you punish the people that sent in the entries with that envelope because of the post office? Its just hard to make that kind of decision in my opinion. While there is someone at fault, it is not the people that sent in with the trainers and such. One person has said that it was their fault so just take their horses out and let the others show. Thats selflessness at its best. While there is no really good solution, there has to be one that will not hurt the innocent people involved.


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## disneyhorse

Minimomnc... I don't see in the post where the post office was solely at fault? It clearly stated a couple times that it was human error, not a post office error.


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## gvpalominominis

ohmt said:


> The rule in question: (Section XVI Page 12)
> 
> 4. The closing entry date for the AMHR National Show shall be determined by the Show Management. No entries for new horses will be accepted after closing date of AMHR National Show. No post entries will be accepted at the AMHR National Show. All horses must be in the show program. Classes may be added, but no new horse may be entered after the closing date. No horse substitutions without a veterinarian certificate of horse’s inability to show.
> 
> This rule comes into play as well: (Section XVI Page 12)
> 
> 5. No post entering of youth classes. Neither horse nor youth can be changed after the closing date.


This rule states that the Show Management has the ability to set the closing date. It would also infer that they have the ability to 'extend or change that date' as they deemed necessary.	It does not say that the date cannot be extended at their discretion.

I also believe a rule is a rule and firm believer of enforcement, but feel that this "Corporation" has the fudicial duty to make decisions in the best interest of the Organization. The financial loss alone would be in the double digit thousands. I do NOT believe in special exceptions for anyone, so an extension of the closing date would allow additional entries from anyone who would like to still enter.

I believe the decision is the Show Managements according to the stated Rule but the BOD also has governing authority. I don't believe there needs to be a 'change' to the existing rule.... other than clariying that an extension of the closing date is available by decision of the show management.


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## ohmt

Disneyhorse-minimom is correct, despite what the post infers. The entries were given to the post office on time, but due to the post office's error, it was post marked one day late. That included more than one person's entry as the others sent theirs to them beforehand so they could all be stalled together.


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## streaker

I for one sent in my entries in prior to closing and mailed it out to a friend so we can be stalled together.... Unfortunately it was sent in late. Does that mean I should be punished for something that was out of my control.... We all work hard to qualify for the Nationals and invest a lot of Money and time... I hope the board would consider this plea there is too many innocent participants that just want to have fun and show there horses...


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## Jill

Gosh, you know, it's hard not to feel empathy for what has been outlined... but I do also feel that rules are rules.

We all have our own set of circumstances and personal demands, but this is a black and white RULE. When exceptions are made, it really can open of the door for discrimination and favoritism. It's not a good situation, and I wouldn't want to be involved, but my feeling is that the entry deadline rule is not something that is foggy or indistinct.

Do I feel sorry for those involved? Yes.

Do I think the rules should be bent? .... Regretfully, no.


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## LindaL

Like Jill said, I do feel for those involved and it saddens me that one person's mistake has cost a lot of other people not to be able to go to Nationals...BUT, if you go to Nationals every year (and even if this was your first year), when you get the premium/entry forms you see right there in CAPS and UNDERLINED that entries MUST be postmarked by July 25th. What part of that is hard to understand? If you are worried it won't get postmarked in time, mail it in on July 24th...You have enough time to get entries in by the entry close date. If you make exception for one, you MUST make exceptions for others.

I agree that a rule change to include a 1 day grace period or a "penalty" for those entries not postmarked in time may be in order.

(ETA: I had seen this on FB, but do not know who it involves...but I'm nosey so if anyone knows and would like to PM me who it is, I'd appreciate it....




)


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## Minimor

So if they were to extend the deadline to August 15th and then more can enter if they wish, what happens when two groups of people have some problem that results in their envelopes being marked August 16th or maybe August 20th? Are they then going to be allowed to enter anyway? Extend the deadline once. Extend it again?

When does the program get printed? Can all horses be put into that program yet? The rules do require that all entries be in the program.


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## Jill

Holly, it seems like our thoughts are somewhat parallel on this matter.

Regarding a "Grace Period", I think:


It should not be retroactive

It would really just become a later deadline... and we'd still have people, who for whatever reason, miss the mark.

It would not change a thing going forward


When I have something important that must be delivered on time, I send it UPS or Fed-ex -- and I track to verify it was delivered on time. I know that I would be very devastated if I had planned on my horse showing at Nationals and those hopes were dashed by error, oversight, or carelessness on the part of another. Whether or not it's easy to empathize or feel sorry for those involved is NOT the issue.

We all make choices and we do, in fact, control how our entries are delivered. If we decide to let someone else handle our entries, that's our choice. And if it's a trainer that we've paid pre and all season to prepare our horse of this event, and the trainer falls short... I really wouldn't want to be the horse owner nor the horse trainer.


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## allaboutminis

Jill said:


> Gosh, you know, it's hard not to feel empathy for what has been outlined... but I do also feel that rules are rules.
> 
> We all have our own set of circumstances and personal demands, but this is a black and white RULE. When exceptions are made, it really can open of the door for discrimination and favoritism. It's not a good situation, and I wouldn't want to be involved, but my feeling is that the entry deadline rule is not something that is foggy or indistinct.
> 
> Do I feel sorry for those involved? Yes.
> 
> Do I think the rules should be bent? .... Regretfully, no.



Thank you Jill! Some will not understand that! But there again people should of made sure that their stuff was sent in on time! It is that big of a deal that you are stalled with each other. I bet anything this will not happen next year! Just because you sent them to a friend does not mean that was on time! Rules are rules and they need to be followed!


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## Minimor

I agree Jill; when it is something as important as Nationals and the deadline is firm, you mark your calendar--actually when it is something so important I mark my calendar a week ahead--that way if I forget to get my paperwork together earlier I see that calendar note and still have time to get everything prepared and finished/mailed before the actual deadline.

And we all know what they say about how to handle something you want done right--do it yourself. If someone chooses to trust another to get their entries in, that is a choice that is made, and choices have consequences.


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## RayVik

I think this goes far deeper then just the compassion of the individual's situation and ask all to consider that the integrity of our national show is at consideration. Those of us fortunate enough to enter in competition for recognition of our animals seek the confidence they measure up to any awards earned . To receive any such award in the absence of all those deserving puts a shadow on their merit.  Granted those seeking some advantage by way of cheating or malice should be penalized and certainly rules are created to prevent or enforce such circumstances. In this case consider the reasons for the existence of the rule and then consider what should be the penalty for breaking it. It seems only prudent to consider what advantage might be obtained by this violation and having first taken that consideration take into account do what is nessacary to  return the balance of fairness to all the competition.  Fortunately I am not in a position to make the final decision but I will be affected by it as will our entire registry and national show so I appeal to those making the decision to consider more then just the obvious and look beyond this being simply a rule that has been broken and consider a penally based on fairness to this rules existence and purpose and not just its technical violation with a sense of establishing fairness and not just punishment. 

It's not as though this rule or  changing it is a unknown concept first we have a national show for a segment of this organization that requires no pre qualifying no limits in how or when a horse can be entered for youth or otherwise basically show up with a horse and enter and show and many times when any change was proposed to those requirements or lack of all sort of comments come forth like it can't grow or it will lose money or it's not in our best interest. Plus given this open door policy on entries shows it  does and can work and can be handled successfully.  Next changes have been made in rules retroactive many times just as recent as last year in changing the dates for area shows to allow a date for congress. That rule affected the entire organization but was changed after the fact to allow the circumstances to work so I wonder where we draw the line here especially given the impact and intent of what blindly following the written rule in this case will have. 

Yes it is a very clearly written rule and yes it has been broken and we can apply it as such and EVERYONE suffer it's impact or we can look to its purpose and address it as to what and why it's intend is and make adjustments and penalties to make it fair

I certainly could be wrong but administration and cost to process entries to the largest small equine event in the world  seems the only reason for this rule as what unfair advantage is obtained by a horse or competitor in the absence of this rule which is not present in our other national show which does not have this limitation.


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## dreamlandnh

All the exhibitors that were wanting to be stalled together were able to get their entries to the one person to mail them in, it is not their fault that the one Post Office didn't have a functioning machine to post mark the envelope. If anyone of the people that are saying to follow the rules were in these peoples place they would be speaking differently. Yes, there are rules BUT think of the bigger picture.

If the one person that was to mail them in has said they will accept that it was their fault, fine this person and not the rest.

Are the ones that say no don't let them show just worried about the ribbon?

I myself say let them all show with a fine. I'm there to have fun, enjoy my minis and make new friends, I have told my daughter that if she gets a ribbon at Nationals it is just icing on the cake and not the reason she is there.

I'm in another organization and we had YOUTH that didn't get forms in, in time but did we say sorry you can't show...NO we gave them a "fine" and let them show so that they can learn from this.

We have learned that these rules need to looked at and corrected. Make it easier for those that would like to be stalled together can be and not make one person carry the weight of getting everything out. Add a line to entry form that says who you would like to stable with or near.


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## drmatthewtaylor

As I am sure that I do not have all of the pertinent information dealing with this issue, then I will not comment about it specifically. But, as a member of the ASPC I am a co-owner in the business of the Club and I think this situation brings up many questions that need to be explored to improve business.

1) No tolerance policies are bad. Life is full of gray areas and pretending otherwise produces rules/punishments that get toddlers police records because they brought a toy gun to school. I have no idea if the rule should be bent in this case, but I believe ASPC elected officials are like Judges and should decide punishments based on not only a thorough knowledge of the situation but the history of other like situations.

2) I do not understand the point behind the rule in the first place. What is this rule trying to prevent? Post entering happens all the time at Nationals, why is that different than late entries in terms of fair competition?

3) As a member of the business of the ASPC, I have thought that we should take every entry someone wants to pay for. But, certain entries should come at a premium. Entries made before the due date should be one rate, late entries made prior to the show should be a higher rate, and post entries should be yet a higher rate. As time/labor costs money, then those who choose to add on more labor costs in a shorter time frame should just have to pay for it.

4) Isn't it wonderful that people enjoy Nationals so much that they treat it like its a vacation and want to spend that vacation with their friends? Why does ASPC require that all of those people send their entries in together? The ASPC shouldn't want $1000's of income to be determined by whether or not the last person in the chain of entries got them in on time.

5) With all of the ability to send information and money, why is the ASPC relying on the Post Office? Can't entries be faxed, emailed, couriered, or better yet be a portion of the website?

Dr Taylor


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## allaboutminis

Done with it because Bod is going to do what they want


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## Flying minis

Ok, so the only reason I can see that people are saying "NO" is that it's a rule, and heaven forbid rules should be broken and I got mine in on time, so everyone else should have. Let's understand that we have a fairly antiquated system (as Dr. Taylor points out) that relies on multiple steps going right for this to work for many people. It is my first year going to Nationals - I sent my entries to a friend I will be stalling with. I trust them totally, but was still nervous until entries went in. . . We can all say they "should have" done this and that, but the truth is, in these economic times, we are far better IN THE LONG RUN to keep people involed in the breed and th organization.

So the points against letting them show should be recognized - first, a rule was broken. Ok, so have a fine for the rule breaker - whoever sent the late entries. Second, it should be "fair" to those who sent them in - ok, let's add an extra "processing fee" , NOT a post entry fee, since really the point of having them in on time is due to time / effort to process entries. Then, for those who say this will just let people think they can continue to send late entries, change the rules so that the fine and processing fee ALWAYS apply - every year - and get SIGNIFICANTLY larger the closer to the show the entries are sent. If you REALLY want to show and don't have your entries in until the week before the show, then you will have to pay through the nose to do so. All entries are to be in the show program? Well, have you ever been to an auction that has a supplement sheet? All entries could still be in the show program.

It seems to me this is a win/win. The association is paid for their extra costs, and then some, if people want to enter late. People who enter late are not excluded. It is not a "one-time" exception if it becomes the rule from here foreward (meaning for the 2012 show forward). For those saying we are opening to lawsuits because we would let these people show, well we're already there, since one show of the association DOES allow it.

I'm all for fairness, but really, let's take a look at what other issues exist, and how we can turn this from a negative to both the members and the association, to a LASTING positive. Let's not act based on today or this year, but the long term goals and needs for our group.


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## Flying minis

allaboutminis said:


> Done with it because Bod is going to do what they want


I think we also need to recognize that this is, at its core, a BUSINESS. And businesses must keep their customers happy - especially the big ones. We all want the association to grow and expand, we want markets for our horses - well, like any good business, sometimes you have to do what you can to make the customer happy. The BOD is in a bad situation right now, I wouldn't want to have to make the decision. No matter what they decide, some people will be happy, and some irate. I don't think this is a time to criticize our BOD - if they are looking at the good of the organization and its future, then this is NOT an easy decision to make, and SOMEONE is going to be ticked off with them, no matter what they decide. And folks, it's a HORSE SHOW. Granted, a big and important one, but a horse show nonetheless. Do we really enforce horse show "rules" so strictly? Sure, and no horses are stretched when measured or shown, they're always square, and no one uses action devices or ginger, etc., etc. Personally, I think the owners who would be excluded from the show would have MORE of a legal case if they are excluded - how do you justify following this rule to the nth degree, when others are not?


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## ohmt

I don't get how a grace period in which fees are significantly higher are going to result in a later deadline. Nationals already costs a large amount of money, I hardly think many would want to double their entry fees on purpose. But, it would come in VERY handy in siuations like these.

I agree that the people who really did have theirs in on time but the post office's machine was down should not be penalized. I am not even sure how this is an issue right now. Post office sent a letter as well so what is the big deal there? Not seeing it.

The others I'm not familiar with the situations, but it sounds like one or more were trainers who thought the date was later? Those cases, I agree the rules are rules, but it needs to be changed, as Dr. Taylor has said. We need to have a grace period.


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## Jacki

I've read that a Director is among those affected by this situation. It is very sad just like it was very sad when other members had problems meeting the deadline in the past due to serious situations such as family death or horse death, they were not allowed an exception to the rule.

*When it is over we will have an excellent idea of where our current BOD stands on enforcing the rules as currently written in our Rule Book. *

That said I feel terrible for those involved, maybe some members have entered horses that these folks could show at the Nationals in some class so that they can participate to some degree.

Jacki


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## Minimor

Unfortunately whatever the BOd decides there are going to be a lot of hard feelings. If they don't allow these late entries, those affected will be angry. If they do allow these late entries there will be accusations of favoritism...allowing it now when a director is one of those affected, allowing it because of the names involved otherwise...when in the past others have been denied the same priviledge even though their reasons for missing the deadline were as good (even better in some cases) as those this time around.


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## Riverrose28

In my opinion this issue should not have been made public! The membership elects the Board and gives them the right to make all decisions pertaining to the club. As someone that has served on serveral adult boards of horse clubs, I can say a decision like this is not ever going to make everyone happy. someone is going to be upset, no matter what! I'm still not even clear on the reasons for all of the late entries, one says the post office posting machine was down, well, couldn't they drive to another location, or did they just wait till the office was about to close on the last day? If so why didn't they try to mail a day or two early? I know around here it is long drive, but there are two seperate locations, and I also know that when we had a storm in June both locations were closed. If it was me I would have driven somewhere else, as these entries are important. As for the trainer getting the dates wrong, no excuse! I'd bring my horse home! Not sure of the other circumstances, and really I don't have all the facts on any, it's not up to me, it's up to the Board, and we the membership have to abide by their decision. Wheather we like it or not, they are the ones elected by us to handle this type of thing.


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## targetsmom

As a long time competitor at local shows - but not at regionals or Nationals - I NEVER pre-enter. Yes it costs me extra money but I don't mind paying the post entry fee. I know one of the reasons for pre-entry is so that exhibitors and horses can get their names in the program, and of course it makes things easier for the show management. But I am very superstitious and the last times I pre-entered shows - in 1998 and next in 2010 for the AMHA Eastern Regional show - BOTH times a horse ended up in the hospital with colic surgery. (Yes, different horses). In the intervening time, and since, I entered at least 4-6 shows each year without ever pre-entering and without another colic surgery. I, for one, would happily pay a post entry fee for Nationals and not mind at all if my name wasn't in the program.

I also can't help but wonder in this current situation, what would have happened if no one had said a word about the late entries and slipped them in anyway. It reminds me of a time when my Dad was postmaster and found a letter that had gotten caught under something and had lain there for months (maybe years). He just picked it up and tossed it in the outgoing mail.


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## Field-of-Dreams

Flying minis said:


> So the points against letting them show should be recognized - first, a rule was broken. Ok, so have a fine for the rule breaker - whoever sent the late entries. Second, it should be "fair" to those who sent them in - ok, let's add an extra "processing fee" , NOT a post entry fee, since really the point of having them in on time is due to time / effort to process entries. Then, for those who say this will just let people think they can continue to send late entries, change the rules so that the fine and processing fee ALWAYS apply - every year - and get SIGNIFICANTLY larger the closer to the show the entries are sent. If you REALLY want to show and don't have your entries in until the week before the show, then you will have to pay through the nose to do so. All entries are to be in the show program? Well, have you ever been to an auction that has a supplement sheet? All entries could still be in the show program.
> 
> It seems to me this is a win/win. The association is paid for their extra costs, and then some, if people want to enter late. People who enter late are not excluded. It is not a "one-time" exception if it becomes the rule from here foreward (meaning for the 2012 show forward). For those saying we are opening to lawsuits because we would let these people show, well we're already there, since one show of the association DOES allow it.


Now THAT is a good idea: extra processing fee, penalty to the person who sent the entries and late fees. MOST people (myself included!) will always try to avoid the extra fees, but when something goes wrong, gets forgotten, etc, there is an "out" for them. And the registry can make some extra $$. But make the penalties high- I'm talking hundreds high. Say $100 within the first two weeks and double it every week afterwards. PER HORSE.

Of course, I'm not even GOING this year, I didn't qualify my beasties as I couldn't afford showing much this year. Ah, well!


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## Riverrose28

I'm not going this year either, as we had no money to even show at any sanctioned shows, only 4-H! But this does set a presedence for the future. sorry can't spell to save my soul and have dial up so can't even load the spell check!


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## stormy

"In my opinion this issue should not have been made public! "

This is a very real issue. I am very sure there have been late entries in the past that have not been permitted to show and have accepted the decision and likely been not happy, but decisions were/are made by the BOD and enforced. Making this a gigantic internet circus is extremely unprofessional in my opinion. The decision is not being made by public vote. Those of us with only bits of the whole story need to let the BOD handle the decision making process.

Just to edit a bit, not saying the BOD made it public, not sure where it started but sure makes it hard on the registry officials to make an appropriate decision when all of us are making judgments on hearsay...they have a hard job, don't envy them having to address things like this at all....we do not need to make it harder!!


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## Minimor

It wasn't the BOD that made this public; I assume those late entrants are the ones that put it out there, and that is their right. You cannot prevent people from talking about a situation that is such a big deal and big disappointment to them. From what I have seen and heard this was all over the Internet before Lea's letter to the BOD was posted on FB and a couple of forums.


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## JMS Miniatures

Agree if anything the BOD doesn't like to talk about anything outside their door lol.

It is probably the people who got the shaft and then started blaming AMHR, at least some. This is in no way AMHR/ASPC, the BOD, fault. Again I feel real bad about this situation. I would be devastated. I would be hurting inside. I would be pleading too. BUT, the BOD needs to follow the rules along with the people that sent the entries in late and say no show. If we do this penalty thing it has to be real severe enough and set an example and make sure this does not happen again. It's not like we can say double the class fees, because they can always enter most of their classes once they get there, unless they make them sign up for all of their classes right then and there and cannot post-enter in any classes at Tulsa?

The ruling on this will be real important at what happens in future cases like this. With that said the best way to go would be sorry no show. Otherwise I will guarantee next year it will happen again. It sucks for everyone involved including the registry. I heard that it's over 150 horses that will be affected and if that's the case that's a whole lot of money the show will be loosing.


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## LaVern

I hadn't heard about this before yesterday. I sure wouldn't want to be a board member and decide this one. It is so heartbreaking. And that many horses could make the difference on whether or not we break even.

But I guess if I were a board member I would have to say "no show ". It isn't so much about the people that didn't get their stuff in time as the ones that did. What are they going to tell the exhibitors like me, that went buy the rules, and get beat by some of these 125 horses that didn't go by the rules. If they want to change it for next year great.

Remember just a few short years ago, the horses that didn't qualify. What, a mess that was. Same thing here.

I am famous for putting things off to the last minute. I always have to drive the 50 miles to watch the postmaster put the stamp. She goes bam, it's done and then I look.


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## Jill

LaVern said:


> Remember just a few short years ago, the horses that didn't qualify. What, a mess that was.


You bet I remember... I will not ever forget it!


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## allaboutminis

Yes the post master can stamp it right there. So it not getting stamp is a bunch of bull. If it was a BOD too well to bad for them. They for one should know the rules.


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## ruffian

gvpalominominis said:


> This rule states that the Show Management has the ability to set the closing date. It would also infer that they have the ability to 'extend or change that date' as they deemed necessary.	It does not say that the date cannot be extended at their discretion.
> 
> I also believe a rule is a rule and firm believer of enforcement, but feel that this "Corporation" has the fudicial duty to make decisions in the best interest of the Organization. The financial loss alone would be in the double digit thousands. I do NOT believe in special exceptions for anyone, so an extension of the closing date would allow additional entries from anyone who would like to still enter.
> 
> I believe the decision is the Show Managements according to the stated Rule but the BOD also has governing authority. I don't believe there needs to be a 'change' to the existing rule.... other than clariying that an extension of the closing date is available by decision of the show management.


I don't see where the rule "infers" the ability to change or extend the date. It states they set the date. That's it. The date was set. It's very sad that these folks won't be able to show.

If this rule gets "bent", what's to stop someone from asking to be excused from qualifying under 4 judges? This year a show was cancelled at the last minute and many folks either couldn't qualify or had to travel long distances to get qualified. Should they get special attention?

I think this could be brought up at convention and discussed with the membership, but the rule should not be ignored for these folks.

I just read it's supposed to be involving 125 horses. Six envelopes?? 125?? That's 20 horses per envelope?? that seems a little high . . .


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## gvpalominominis

ruffian said:


> I don't see where the rule "infers" the ability to change or extend the date. It states they set the date. That's it. The date was set. It's very sad that these folks won't be able to show.
> 
> If this rule gets "bent", what's to stop someone from asking to be excused from qualifying under 4 judges? This year a show was cancelled at the last minute and many folks either couldn't qualify or had to travel long distances to get qualified. Should they get special attention?
> 
> I think this could be brought up at convention and discussed with the membership, but the rule should not be ignored for these folks.
> 
> I just read it's supposed to be involving 125 horses. Six envelopes?? 125?? That's 20 horses per envelope?? that seems a little high . . .


Ruffian, I respect your opinion.

Yes, they set the date.... and the rule doesn't say it can't be re-set or that it is set in stone, or that it has to be so far in advance of the show... etc. It's a selected date. = ) *in·fer*[ in fúr ] - to conclude something from reasoning: to come to a conclusion or form an opinion about something on the basis of evidence or reasoning. To "infer" is non tangible so of course it doesn't state that in the rule. Rules and laws are followed based on interpretation. So what was the scope of the rule?? One reason may be is that it gives the office sufficient time to sort out entries and the person doing the show program time... because it's also in the rule that the entries need to be in the show program. I'm suggesting that an addendum insert can be provided to uphold that part of the rule as well, AND I have offered to help with that project if they needed it. Does it hurt the organization if the date is changed? Who does it hurt? If that can be explained logically... then the solution is easy.

It really doesn't matter who's envelopes they are but it has been said that several trainers are involved and people who were being stalled together... it could easily be 100 horses plus. On the financial side, I only have 4 young halter horses entered and my check was almost $1,000. That makes it pretty easy to do the math of how much the lost revenue could be.

I'm sure whatever the BOD decides they will consider all aspects of the situation and I for one will respect their decision whether I agree with it or not. I would just like to believe that this organization is about people, because it's people that make it what it is. It's also about Miniature Horses and a grand finale show that many people spend a lot of time, money, effort gearing towards, breed for along with plenty of hopes and dreams. Are rules important, absolutely, but, if humanity and common sense cannot prevail in the best interest overall...


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## wildoak

Can't get my copy/paste to work... but Dr Taylor has made some good points. No tolerance rules are not always a good thing - life is, as he said, full of grey areas and exceptions and to pretend otherwise is to deny what's real.

I have always wondered why there was not a late entry option with penalties applied. Seems like going forward, it would be a smart thing to implement. As to this year, I don't have all the facts and can't pass judgement... but IF it's as I understand it, what the post office does is completely out of our control. If my post office stamped an incorrect date odds are I wouldn't know about it until I received my entries back. And if one individual is responsible for many entries being late, my thought would be to let them absorb the consequences. Yes we have rules to follow but there are times we need to fall back on common sense. Just my 2 cents...

Jan


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## JMS Miniatures

Last I heard it was 165 horses. Seems a lot but if one accepts a whole bunch of entries so they can be stalled together that could be the reason why. Thats why they have groups limited to only 65 stalls.

The only issue it would be to have post-entry fees means that you would have to sign up for all your classes when you send in your entries so you can avoid paying the post-entry fees vs now you can sign up for one class and enter and sign up for your other classes at the show. Myself personally I rather not have to pay for everything at once and would hate to pay more to enter another class when I get to the show.

I don't think the BOD can change a rule just like that, it has to go thru the proper channels and if they want to change it due to this situation then they can always bring it up at the AMHR meeting at Convention this year.


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## kaykay

This story just gets bigger and bigger.

I did talk briefly to a director that said there is nothing the board can do as this is a rule in the rulebook and the board cannot go against that.

I do not ever want to see the board be able to vote against a rule in the rule book. That is really dangerous ground.

To change it going forward someone would have to propose a rule change and go thru proper channels.

I hate to be suspicious but I know when I mail something important I make the postal clerk stamp it right there while I watch. I do this all the time in the course of everyday business and always did it when I mailed show entries.

I am just taken aback that this many entries did not make it in on time especially from people that know better.

My heart does go out to the ones that don't get to show but ultimately it is not the organizations fault.


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## disneyhorse

I received an email stating that this specific issue has not been brought to the Board Of Directors. The decision was made by the Executive Board.

Just some info for those of you speculating about the BOD. Not everyone on the BOD posts on the forums but they do want to ensure facts are straight even if they are unable to post themselves.

Andrea


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## minimomNC

So I wonder if anyone can find out if this has happened before and how it was handled. Surely this isn't the very first time in AMHR history there has been late entires. So what happened before, was it just let go because of who it was? Is it worse now because of who it is?, just trying to figure out why after all these years, this is the very first time late entries have been broadcast everywhere. I just find it hard to believe its never happened before. So how was it resolved then?


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## ohmt

There have been family deaths in the past around the deadline time and the people were told no when they asked if they could still send in their entries. I'm sure there are plenty of others, the rule's been effect since the 90's. One of the reasons I believe this time should not be an exception (except those effected by the post office's error).


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## Jill

Amanda, that is my understanding and opinion, too.


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## minimomNC

So now some people have lowered themselves to threatening the people that had late entries that if their horses show, they will make sure they don't win? Yes I heard it from a very reliable source but the issue is...REALLY PEOPLE ! ! its a horse show for goodness sakes, not life or death. This has caused one person serious illness because of the stress, thats uncalled for. While I do believe that the rules should be followed, there is no need to get so darn nasty about it.


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## JMS Miniatures

That's redicilous to have threats. I think this is simple decision, hard one, but simple and just no show. We just can't pay favoritism, and after thinking about it last night and discussing a penalty will not solve it. It sounds like it has been decided anyways. Sorry to all those involved.


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## Riverrose28

OH No, Minimom, this is awful, aren't these people adults? What a shame!


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## Jill

Of course threats are ridiculous. Did you hear it from a judge? Because wouldn't that be the only source capable of backing it up or making it so? I find it hard to believe.


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## minimomNC

Well Jill, since you never go to shows of course you find it hard to believe. But those that do actually go to shows and show their own horses are well aware of the "ways" you can keep a horse from winning. Its not just the judges, oh and no I didn't talk to any judges, that wouldn't be right since I do have horses showing.


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## allaboutminis

minimomNC said:


> So now some people have lowered themselves to threatening the people that had late entries that if their horses show, they will make sure they don't win? Yes I heard it from a very reliable source but the issue is...REALLY PEOPLE ! ! its a horse show for goodness sakes, not life or death. This has caused one person serious illness because of the stress, thats uncalled for. While I do believe that the rules should be followed, there is no need to get so darn nasty about it.


Okay if one person has got sick so sorry they should of gotten their stuff in. But they took it upon theirself to send it to someone else and to have them to send it in. Don't feel sorry for them. Excuses after excuses is all you are hearing. I am sorry for the ones that did depend on others but that is a chance that you take! Lesson learned the hard way!


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## Jill

minimomNC said:


> Well Jill, since you never go to shows of course you find it hard to believe. But those that do actually go to shows and show their own horses are well aware of the "ways" you can keep a horse from winning. Its not just the judges, oh and no I didn't talk to any judges, that wouldn't be right since I do have horses showing.


Oh, Karen... seriously. You don't need to try an tear me down just because you don't like my sincere opinion


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## ohmt

Now ladies, be nice. Where's Marty to sing her peace songs when we need her!

Allaboutminis-I am confused why you feel the need to keep coming back on here and put down those that are effected by this. Don't feel sorry for them? Well, now I'm feeling sorry for you. I wish you all the best and I hope you are never in a situation like those who put their trust into others to get the entries in on time. Those that have spent thousands and thousands to have their horse trained and shown to get to Nationals and be let down by another due to the mistake of trusting too much.

I regret that I even started this thread for the person who wrote the letter. Some people really lack compassion.


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## minimomNC

Hold on allaboutminis, I don't think I was making excuses about anything, my issue is the threats they are getting. I never said a thing about what should or shouldn't happen. As you copied from my post, "While I believe that the rules should be followed, there is no need to get so darn nasty about it" I don't think that is making excuses for anything. The person that has become ill is stressed because of the threats and how bad they feel that they let others down. Again no excuses, so rein it in, you have made your point. Show no mercy for anyone no matter what, we got it.


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## allaboutminis

Last time I check I could speak! Well they would not be sick if they would of sent them in know would they. I For one have had to travel and spent my hard earn money for my horses to go to nationals. But yet I still got mine sent in. I do feel bad for the ones that sent theirs to others but for the one that the depended on heck no I don't ! And for thebBOD that did not get theirs sent in oh well


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## dreaminmini

I have read the letter before on Facebook. I have though about the situation. I feel very badly for those people involved. I know the excitement of going to Nationals, of your hopes for your horses and having a good time there. There's nothing like it. To have them dashed like that must be heartbreaking regardless of whose fault it may be. I have my horse with a trainer and rely on her to make the entries on time and I am not the only one in North America that does. Could you imagine a trainer of 20 or so horses have all the owners send in their own entries and have his horses in all different barns???? Nightmare! Plus having the trainer do it, should ensure all entries are in on time, so an owner doesn't forget and waste the work that was done all year.

IF, truly the post office was at fault, and it can be proved, then I feel they should be allowed. Just the same if there was some natural disaster that prevent mail from getting through to the office on time. What are we going to say "you should have thought there might be a fire and mailed your entries the day before"?

As for the difference between Congress and Nationals and the differing rules that apply to entries. They should be the same for both. Also I would be all for on-line entries the would help ensure that this problem doesn't occur in future. But then it would be the computer was wrong, power failure, system crashes. Humans are humans and in life stuff happens.

I feel bad for those involved and would not want to be in their shoes. They are human and I don't blame them for trying to still get their horses in, being honest, most of us would, even knowing the rules. Threatening them is just plain nasty. Those people are the ones that should not come to Nationals. Is there nothing in the rules about unsportsmanlike behavior - that is what this is!!! Do I need to worry that if my horse beats theirs that they are going to come after my horse? That is what this smacks of. Or am I wasting my money even participating at Nationals because the ribbons are already decided upon now?? That someone has the power to make sure a person doesn't win?? Disgusts me and makes me wonder if I want to continue in this registry. This is a horse show!!! Not a life or death pursuit. Get a grip!!


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## Magic

I feel really badly for all of the people whose entries did not get postmarked on time for Nationals, I can only imagine how devastated I would feel if that happened to me.






Still, I do believe that rules are rules, and they should apply to all. If an organization has a rule then it must be followed, or chaos will ensue. No saying "oh, well this situation is much more dire, so we'll allow it this time".





I like that idea of possibly getting a future rule change so that later entries could be accepted, with a hefty late fee, and an addition added to the show book, but that would have to be written up and submitted and studied and voted on.


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## Riverrose28

although this whole situation is sad, there is no excuse for threats! NONE! I have been to shows where there have been threats made, and taken seriously! I've also been to a show where one exhibitor sat at the measuring area to observe all measuments, as she was upset over something. It's a shame that adults feel the need to act like three year olds! My young Grandson shows better sportsmanship then this. I only read a couple of forums so haven't seen this anywhere else, but I'm sure the manure has hit the fan.


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## allaboutminis

Some was post marked Aug 1st come one. This is from one from the home office. One day late or 10 it is still late.


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## kaykay

> I received an email stating that this specific issue has not been brought to the Board Of Directors. The decision was made by the Executive Board.Just some info for those of you speculating about the BOD. Not everyone on the BOD posts on the forums but they do want to ensure facts are straight even if they are unable to post themselves.
> 
> Andrea


I was told the executive board did not vote on this. The National Show Committee voted to deny the entries.

It is just crazy how the story keeps getting bigger and bigger.

Remember it hasn't been that long that information or even misinformation could spread so fast and easy. This rule was passed in the 90's by the people on the miniature committee. This is what they wanted. I feel sure they had their reasons. And for whatever reason the Shetland committee did not want this so it was not passed for Congress. Probably because it is a smaller national show.

I feel horrible that someone was threatened but unfortunately it does happen. I have seen a lot of things over the years that I wish I hadn't.


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## minie812

Such a shame that this has happened and caused so much division amongst it's members. Yes, rules are rules aren't they? No gray areas always black & white? I imagine the trainer feels like S---! That person let their clients down and OMGoodness so did our mail system...neither rain nor sleet or snow but it happened didn't it? I wonder what the newbies think of this? Will this kind of behavior toward one another make them want to join the AMHR or will they want no part of it. The BOD is in place to make the decision for NOW. Let them do their job. Then plan on asking for them to make some changes in their rules for nx year by writing to the AMHR. I know I will.


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## Minimor

Threats are never acceptable, and it is entirely possible that the person making the threat  could end up in a lot of trouble if the target should choose to turn it over to law enforcement.  

Yes, it is true that there are a number of ways someone can ensure that a horse won’t win.  Remember the incident at Worlds a couple of years ago, where someone hacked off a horse’s mane during the night?  There are plenty of other ways too—ways that physically harm the horse.


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## Ashley

If they are a stickler like they use to be then they shouldnt be allowed to enter. I do think some of the rules are a bit extream and need to be looked at and updated.


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## ctinsley

*I HAVE NOTICED THAT MANY PEOPLE SAY THIS HAS BEEN IN THE RULE BOOK SINCE THE 1990'S. WELL I JUST DUG OUT MY 2005 RULE BOOK AND IT STATES " CLOSING ENTRY DATE FOR THE NATIONAL SHOW SHALL BE TWENTY-ONE DAYS BEFORE THE OPENING DAY OF THE NATIONAL SHOW". WHEN AND WHY WAS THE WORDING CHANGED, WE ARE NO WHERE NEAR 21 DAYS BEFORE NATIONALS AT THIS DATE. ALSO, MANY PEOPLE SAY THE YOUTH QUALIFYING FORMS ARE BEING BYPASSED FOR ENTRIES, IT STATES IN THE RULE BOOK THESE HAVE TO BE DONE IN ORDER FOR YOUTH TO SHOW. IF ONE RULE CAN BE EXCUSED WHY CAN'T THE OTHER. JUST SAYING.*


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## JMS Miniatures

Here is what the ruling says in the current rule book:

"The closing entry date for the AMHR National Show shall be determined by the show management. No entries for new horses will be accepted after closing date of AMHR National Show. No post entries will be accepted at the AMHR National Show. All horses must be in the show program. Classes may be added, but no new horse may be entered after the closing date. No horse substitutions without a veterinarian certificate of horse's inability to show."

"No post entering of youth classes. Neither horse nor youth can be changed after the closing date."

I have heard that the qualification forms are being laxed, which I don't agree with.


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## LaVern

I just can't stop thinking about this. My mind says one thing, ( be tough, a rule is a rule) and my heart says another. And I guess when it comes to AMHR and our miniature horses my heart has always won. It is not like anything is being swept under the rug. I know that I have been forgiven for mistakes that I have made.


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## drmatthewtaylor

This topic is on my mind as well. I was not aware of the financial implications of this rule. Since its implementation I wonder how much it has cost the Club? I wonder how often this rule created so much aggravation that the Club lost members altogether (whether they were the late ones or others who felt like someone got special treatment).

I do not sit on this BOD, but have sat on quite a few. It would aggravate me to hear folks say I shouldn't get special treatment. Really?!? After I've donated my time, effort, and good name to the Club, not to mention all the money it costs me to miss work and you don't think BOD members past and present deserve special consideration? Doesn't make me want to volunteer if I don't think the Club has my back.

Dr. Taylor


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## Lilbit1997

My opinion on the matter is:

If the post office made an error and it is proven and a letter was sent to AMHR from the post office stating this then its a non issue and that group of entries should be allowed to show. 

As far as the breaking the deadline date just give them a fine. They broke the rule there is a penalty. In school if you don't get an assignment in on time then you don't fail the class. But you do get a zero on the assignment. Which can significantly drop your grade. And the teacher still has to grade all of papers from all of her classes. AMHR still has to go through all the entries and make the show book. 

If the whole world was run just on rules with no exceptions then it would be a huge mess. Yeah, it may be orderly but absoulutly no one would have fun. To me having my two geldings has been nothing but fun. This is my second time at nationals And I'm paying for myself and my two boys to go. Because I WANT to be there. 

I'm sure those entries that got in late would pay extra to go. Because they WANT to be there. 

We are all humans. Yes, we do need to respect rules... but we also need to compassionate. 

Also, look at the big picture. If AMHR turns away these competitors they may lose them forever. The owners might get upset and switch to AMHA. Look at the impact that would have on AMHR. and how much revenue would be lost. Even if it all remains in the Mini world. Or they may even switch to big horses and minis may begin to die out in America.

So, I think the post office error should be excused, a fine should be instated on the others (at whatever amount people deem fit). But thats just my opinion. In the end its up to whatever board/comitee is voting on it (way too many have been mentioned). Their decision is final and everyone needs to respect that.


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## RayVik

Many have mentioned issues regarding legalities and lawsuits and post the rules as a point of concern

I would say to those to read the rule carefully as it very specially says NO entries are to be accepted after the closing date ... NOTHING about post marks or other and if the entry form states post marks then who authorized that change and where is it posted plus a post mark is not a fed ex or ups time stamp

Also as written if the publisher or anyone else leaves a horses name out of the catalog or misprints it they are excluded because that is what it says not their fault but it's the rule

I reconise reason should prevail in this matter but when you want to apply rules and a subjective or objective interpatation can be made you can find issues beyond your intentions

Not arguing these points just pointing them out for consideration when and if someone wants to made a point about following the rule


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## RayVik

1 other quick point

By our rules it wil take 3 years for a change in this rule

1. Closing date for submitting is July 1 so this year is out

2. Change summited and approved next year does not take affect until the next year after that

If its extraordinary then it can be changed now thus dealing with this problem now

Just clearing this point for reference


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## JMS Miniatures

If they give these entries a chance to show then how come they wouldn't let past entries be able to show but instead turned away? This has gone public nation wide, if they let these group show then we will have future cases of this happening and they will always go back to this point "hey you let those 6 entries show why not me".

AMHR just cannot bend the rule on this. The only thing they can do is discuss this at Convention, if they do at all, or someone send in a proposal to get this ruling changed. I know those people affected will be truly hurt and upset but IMO AMHR just can't do anything. If they decide that AMHR is being unfair and they show elsewhere it's too bad. But AMHR has too look at the whole picture and how many more people this would affect if they decide to let them in.


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## drmatthewtaylor

RayVik said:


> Many have mentioned issues regarding legalities and lawsuits and post the rules as a point of concern
> 
> I would say to those to read the rule carefully as it very specially says NO entries are to be accepted after the closing date ... NOTHING about post marks or other and if the entry form states post marks then who authorized that change and where is it posted plus a post mark is not a fed ex or ups time stamp
> 
> Also as written if the publisher or anyone else leaves a horses name out of the catalog or misprints it they are excluded because that is what it says not their fault but it's the rule
> 
> I reconise reason should prevail in this matter but when you want to apply rules and a subjective or objective interpatation can be made you can find issues beyond your intentions
> 
> Not arguing these points just pointing them out for consideration when and if someone wants to made a point about following the rule


The 'post mark' is a good point.

Can I use FedEx and UPS as they don't 'post mark', as they are not the Post Office?

What if someone hand delivered their entries? Again that's not 'post marked'.

What if I did deliver my entries to the Post Office a week in advance and I watched the the Postal Worker apply a post mark, but I didn't pay for certified or registered mail (not a requirement in the rules) and the Post Office loses my envelope? I neither have proof nor entries.

Dr. Taylor


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## RayVik

Just to make my point clear from the above post

This is not just a abstract concept but opens the door to bring into question those people who sent the entries in this year using a means other then EXACTLY written in the rule but not late as per their assumed proper procedure to be brought into this debate

I have no idea how many sent their entries in at the last minute but I suspect if we are not careful the number of people affected could be much greater then perceived if someone really wants to play this hand


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## Minimor

I don't believe this rule has to be changed by the usual route, that is by way of a proposal put in by July 1st--the process for changing a rule for this year's nationals would have had to have been started last Convention at the latest....  This is an AMHR Committee made rule in the rule book so there is a procedure to having it changed through the AMHR Committee, Convention, and then the Board. 

That means a new rule can be put into play for 2013


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## Minimor

Okay, i have more time to post now--i  told that Ohio State Fair locks late entries out.  How is this different?  They turn down entries regularly that come in late.  It would se that whe some shows allow late entries, not all do.

Post marks - Using postmark is a long standing AMHR policy; it is used for everything including registration, temp to perm, futurity, membership, etc.   Didn't  the attorneys say postmark for verifying in by the deadline was okay when the Concerned Members lawsuit was going on?

I think that if push came to shove and someone tried to say that UPS or FedEx wasn't valid because there is no postmark, legal ruling would be that a date stamp on a FedEx or UPS package counts the same as a postmark date. I am not a lawyer but I work with lawyers daily and have a good grasp of legal interpretation. Hand delivered items have no postmark? Really--since anything hand delivered to the office would be there on or before the closing deadline it could not be refused. The rules do not state MUST BE MAILED.


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## ~Lisa~

The printing in the show program that someone mentioned is correct if we are going to scream a rule is a rule then we better realize how vauge our rule book is and how it can be taken.

I have seen horses left out of the show program and still allowed to show how is that different???

And I am wondering why we pay a show manager and then expect the board to rule on something that clearly is a show managers job and decision?

I am not sure how the rule can be put in place for 2013 atlhough it would not be the first time nor the last that rules mysteriously appeared or disappered in the rule book with no one really knowing or remembering the hows or whys


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## Minimor

Lisa, if a horse is left out of the program due to an error on the part of whomever set up the program, that is an error in the part of the show management. That is quite different than a horse being left out of the program because it was entered too late to be included.

I imagine it comes down to being a BOD decision because the late entry rule is in the registry rule book and because entries are submitted to the AMHR office, not to show management?


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## allaboutminis

My question is how can the BOD vote on this. When the rule is in the rule book? Yes my heart does go out to the kids and the kids only because the have no controll in matter as the adults was to send the money and the paper work in.... I really don't care one way or the other as I made sure our paper work went in. Next question is since so many of you all have the facts is why did the person that mailed their paper work in on the 25 of July did not get them to hand stamp it. Something is just not adding up! But I was raised you have to follow a set of rules in life or not you will not like the out come. The ASPC/AMHR rule book is just like the rule book that we all had in school and do we all recall what happen if we did not follow the rules. Well the same applies here! I for one have made several comments on here and only to get a nasty email sent to me that I don't have a heart. Yes I do but like I have said and will say we all have to follow the rulebook! Some may not like it but that is okay because I am allowed to speak my mind!

As far as this if they do allow them to show what is going to happen if one of them is to win a class and someone protest! Well by the rule book all rules have been broken and that horse or horses will still not be able to show! And to be honest with you I do hope it will happen! To be more honest I have talk with a friend of mine that has nothing to do with horses and she works for a lawyer and like she said if they do allow this to happen well there will be a law suit ready to happen...... Just keep in mind that the world that we live in is not a fair one! I will not come back and speak on this again as I have said what I want to say and as a member of ASPC/AMHR I have that right!


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## Jill

allaboutminis said:


> My question is how can the BOD vote on this. When the rule is in the rule book?


My take on it is that they are voting whether or not to uphold the rule. It's black and white, and not open to interpretation. So what is left to decide? Only whether or not the rule will be respected.

My heart goes out to those involved, but this isn't the first time someone has missed a deadline. Were exceptions granted previously? (My understanding is "NO".)


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## Sue_C.

Wow...all this kerfuffle over a SHOW...seriously?






Yes, rules are rules...BUT...have NONE of you nay-sayers ever been speeding...parked in the wrong zone, crossed a crosswalk before the pedestrian was completely across...etc...have you NEVER---EVER...been stopped for any of the aforementioned, and gotten the "stern talking to" instead of a ticket? I have...and was darned glad of it...and I broke a LAW...not JUST a rule.

It NOTHING ELSE...think to the financial repercussion of over 100 entries being refused. So, the registry couldn't use this $$ to "go on with the show"?

Personally, I think the person involved, who posted this on FB did themselves a HUGE disfavour by bringing this public, and I would be willing to bet my booties that such things have been allowed before.


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## ~Lisa~

Holly no where does that rule leave room for it being human error it simply states if a horse is left out of the program it does not show period- if we are going to say rules are rules (which I do believe by the way) then they must all be black and white and not left open for anyone to decide what makes an exception and what does not.

TThat is something this registry rarely does and looking at our by laws and rules in the rule book there are plenty of rules that as written if actually followed could lead to a lot of issues.

We cant keep making more rules or changing old ones until we clean up the ones we have and actually follow them all the time for all the people ...


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## Minimor

Lisa--it is a generally accepted thing in any organization that if it is the organization's error the individual does not pay for it

In my job I enforce rules and regulations-we interpret provincial statutes (laws) and make sure that all documents registered by our office comply with those laws. Nowhere is it written that there is room for error--but if our staff makes an error we fix it with no penalty to the customer. If we let something through with an error in it that is our problem, not the customers...we might even have to pay out of our assurance fund if our error resulted in a loss for a customer. Believe me, the AMHR program rule is no different--you would never win a case for eliminating a horse because the office/show management made an error and did not include that horse in the program. That would never fly in a court of law.


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## ctinsley

IT IS MY UNDERSTANDING THAT THERE HAVE BEEN SOME IN PAST YEARS WITH LATE ENTRIES ALLOWED TO ENTER. IT IS ALSO BEEN SAID THAT THE REGISTRY IS BEING LAX ON THE YOUTH FORMS AND IT IS IN THE "RULE" BOOK THAT THEY WILL NOT BE ALLOWED TO SHOW WITHOUT THIS FORM. SO, ARE WE GOING TO BEND THIS RULE, OR ARE WE GOING TO TELL ALL THE YOUTH THAT DO NOT HAVE THE PAPERWORK, SORRY YOUR HARD WORK ALL YEAR WAS FOR NOTHING. I KNOW OF TIMES I WAS STOPPED FOR SPEEDING (A LAW) AND LUCKILY FOR ME THEY GAVE ME A WARNING INSTEAD OF A TICKET. THESE RULES IN OUR BOOK ARE CHANGED ALL THE TIME AND IF YOUR GOING TO STICK TO ONE ABOUT MAILING DATES THEN THE YOUTH RULE ALSO NEEDS FOLLOWED. ALSO THE RULE IN THE BOOK STATES NO ENTRIES ACCEPTED AFTER CLOSING DATE, IT SAYS NOTHING ABOUT "I MAILED IT ON TIME BUT IT DOESN'T ARRIVE UNTIL A WEEK AFTER CLOSING DATE" I KNOW THAT MANY OF THESE LATE ENTRIES WERE OVERNIGHTED AND HAVE BEEN RECEIVED SEVERAL DAYS BEFORE THE OTHERS, SO IT LOOKS LIKE EVERYONE COULD GET THEIR NAMES IN THE SHOW PROGRAM, THAT IS NOT AN ISSUE.


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## andi

I think what we all need to remember is that there are actual people behind all this. They are sitting at home having to deal with the reality that their mistake may cost them an entire year of working towards Nationals and the fun they have always had going and seeing everyone. Most of them, if not all of them, are not on here posting excuses, making a public spectical of themselves or trying to draw anymore attention to there situation. I know, if I was in their shoes, the last thing I would want right now is to hear everyones opinions on what we all think should be done. While it is "interesting" to talk about the "what if's" and different ways to look at this, I don't think it is worth the stress and hardship it has to be causing these people who already have more than enough on their plates.


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## Minimor

Be reminded that postmark is the standard for meeting deadlines in AMHR.

 We must also realize that anything posted about what is and what isn't being done is heresay.  The info may or may not be accurate.

Youth qualifying has always been something that has been enforced! I highly doubt the office has relaxed the use of the form because it is our ONLY way to verify a youth showed a horse in an open class.  I do believe that it is likely that they have relaxed it for everyone else because it isn't required by the rulebook for anyone but the youth!


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## ruffian

The rule is in place. Must be postmarked by this date. No late horses will be allowed (paraphrasing here). If the BOD allows this, then we might as well throw the rule book out.

As as steward I am responsible for enforcing the "rules" aka "laws" of AMHR/ASPC. If the BOD or Executive committee isn't going to enforce them, then how can I?

If one rule (date of entries) is bent, what about the rule of measuring?? Who wants to open THAT can of worms?

I do take offense from the comment about being afraid of the competition. Really? I'm traveling 1100 miles in the hope that those folks don't show??

This needs to be left to the BOD and EC.


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## RayVik

Entry Forms:

1. The following is a list of information that must be included on the entry form. The show man- agement has the option to add other informa- tion.

d. Qualifying shows.

(1) Exhibitors/Owners to submit the AMHR Nationals Qualification Form signed by show management with entries that will list their qualifying shows, this form available from the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR Office or on www.shetlandminiature.com.


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## Jacki

I have a question on the "Show Qualification Form". I mailed my entry prior to July 25th and included the "Show Qualification Forms" for all horses and shows that had taken place by then. Some of my horses were not qualified by that point in time, they qualified by virtue of attending a show on August 10th so I wrote that in the box labeled "If Qualifying show is aftrer AMHR entry Deadline date - List Here...". Do these horses still need a second "Show Qualification Form"? If so do I bring it with me to Nationals or send it to the office now?

Thanks,

Jacki Loomis


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## myminis

I think if you have a family death or a death of a horse, or sick horse in the family, you should be able to get your money back. I think the rule there is to ridged. Sometimes life throws you a curve, and your not expecting it. If I had a death in the family and missed the deadline well that is part of the rules I would think, but that is a grey area probably immediate family otherwise people would be taking advantage of it. OH my brothers friend died....... Rules are good and we need them, but sometimes are so tight that they don't allow for human compassion, and I would think with death certiifcates and vet notes should cover those things. We're not a dictorial socitiety.


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## drmatthewtaylor

ruffian said:


> The rule is in place. Must be postmarked by this date. No late horses will be allowed (paraphrasing here). If the BOD allows this, then we might as well throw the rule book out.
> 
> As as steward I am responsible for enforcing the "rules" aka "laws" of AMHR/ASPC. If the BOD or Executive committee isn't going to enforce them, then how can I?
> 
> If one rule (date of entries) is bent, what about the rule of measuring?? Who wants to open THAT can of worms?
> 
> I do take offense from the comment about being afraid of the competition. Really? I'm traveling 1100 miles in the hope that those folks don't show??
> 
> This needs to be left to the BOD and EC.


Although life has a lot of grey area, there is black and white at each extreme. The late entry rule is not about an advantage in the ring. Measurement is about advantage.

My wife inadvertently broke a rule the entire year. She showed in a nice shirt that was short sleeved. We were told about our error by a steward. We are sorry and will correct it in the future, but no one kicked her out. Why?? Because any reasonable person would see that rules equivalent to traffic violations would be enforced differently than thievery.

Dr. Taylor


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## Davie

I have read all these and thought how I would handle this situation -- well, a deadline is a deadline -- just like filing your income tax retun that date changes from year to year based on if the 15th is on a weekend -- just like deadlines with a court of law, you miss those you probably lose you lawsuit or find find yourself in worse trouble.

Here is my story and I could have been on the outside looking in this year.

I was home flat on my back almost in the hospital with a sever kidney infection. I heard on the news that it was the 25th of July--something went off in my brain about the date. I called my trainer and she thought the entries closed Friday the 27th. I called another friend of mine and she said no the entries closed that day. I scambled and called the trainer and said must get them in today!!!!

Train (thank heavens) lives 4 miles from me. She made out my entries, came to my home and got my check, a copy of my handicap plaquard, and amateur card. She called her other clients and got them to fax all their info to her and got the package together. She took the package to the post office, got out of the car, when inside and gave the package to the Post Master asking that it be post marked right then said no problem and hand stamped it while she was there.

Yes we had to do a lot of scambling to get our entries in on time but we did it. If the person/people in question took the change and placed their entries in a drop box at the post office--I'm sorry--it only takes a couple of minutes to park your vehicle, take the envelope/package into the PO; hand it to the post master and ask that it be postmarked right then. They will do it so you can see that it was done. Even if you express mail it/overnight it they will still hand stamp the package.

To me if you have spent the time to qualify and are going to Nationals--you know there is an entry deadline every year --- the deadline is no more important that any other deadline like your tax return. We all knew when it was. It was stated in so many places. I know all of us have busy lifes with lots of things on our mind. If I had not had a bell go off in this old brain that was medicated I would have missed the deadline along with my trainer and all of her clients and I will say up front -- would have been no excuse except our own.

To me *a deadline is a deadline, *if your going to allow an excuse for one then you better allow an excuse for all and what a can of worms will that open up? Maybe next time they will pay a little closer attention.

Important dates are place not only on my IPhone calendar, it is on my home computer, work computer and the calender in my purse--I almost always look at one of those at least once during the day.

Off my soapbox now -- I could easily have been one of those on the outside and I could have called and told the home office about my illness and plead my case but in the end -- *my fault I would have missed the deadline*--not my trainer's or any of her other clients. I as the owner always call my trainer and ask before the closing date of ANY show if entries have been mailed.


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## Jill

RULE BOOK: (noun) a collection of rules or prescribed standards on the basis of which decisions are made

DEADLINE: (noun) 1. the time by which something must be finished or submitted; the latest time for finishing something. 2. a line or limit that must not be passed.


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## ctinsley

well jill, thank you so much for the meanings of rule book and deadline, I'm sure no one was smart enough to know that. You know IRS also has a deadline, but I have not seen them turning them down if past the deadline date, people just pay a "fine" do you need the meaning?


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## Jill

ctinsley said:


> well jill, thank you so much for the meanings of rule book and deadline, I'm sure no one was smart enough to know that. You know IRS also has a deadline, but I have not seen them turning them down if past the deadline date, people just pay a "fine" do you need the meaning?


You're welcome, ctinsley.

The Internal Revenue Code (which would be the IRS Rule Book) in section IRC 6081 allows for extensions to file a return. IRC Section 6651 allows for penalties and fines for late payments.

Can you reference where exceptions are allowed and conditions spelled out in the AMHR Rule Book?


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## RayVik

I would like to think our organization is more of a service oriented entity and functions with a sense of openmindedness towards it enrichment of purpose not withstanding it is or put another way it must consider all aspects of its rules their enforcement and their consequences

Rather the reference law albeit our complicated and ever changing tax law would our interest not be better served to consider referencing customer service concepts as for example not being turned away from a restaurant that closes at 9:00 pm and you arrive at 9:01pm. Do you turn people away because your sign say your hours means your closed or do you serve those people because after all you are a restaurant in the business of serving food. Or a airline that turns you away because you ticket was for 6:37 and the plane is delayed but your ticket says your late or the car dealer who say come back tomorrow to buy the car your wanting because it's 8:01 and they close at 8:00 as my grandmother used to say it seems we are sort of cutting off our nose to spite our face on this if we turn away what is rumored to be something approaching 10% of our national show entries

I understand it's not going to be decided by any of us here on this board but It does bring to light the differences we have in opinions concerning our organization and how it should operate


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## Davie

Sorry RayVik, there has been more than one ocassion when at shows that we have gone out for a late dinner and been met at the door by the manager who was locking the door--customer's still inside. Manager said if we don't close when stated we would never get out of here. So guess there are reasons for deadlines -- restaurants closing hours, entry deadlines, filing deadlines, work deadlines, project completion deadlines, construction deadlines--could go on.

Show Class deadlines--if you miss your class are they going to let you have your $$$ back. You know when your class is, if you don't have a gate hold and the gate is shut after the alloted time do you get in--most of the time NO.

I've also been turned away from an airline gate because our flight was just a couple of minutes late, our connecting flight was at the gate but they said the door had been shut and they would not re-open it (gates were just across the concourse from each other).

JMO, but I was able to get my entries off on time even though I was extremely ill--I made the effort and got it done.


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## Crabtree Farm

A better example would be when you get a notice to have your power cut off if payment I'd not received by a certain time/date. If they don't receive your payment (envelope) they shut your power off.


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## Field-of-Dreams

Davie said:


> Sorry RayVik, there has been more than one ocassion when at shows that we have gone out for a late dinner and been met at the door by the manager who was locking the door--customer's still inside. Manager said if we don't close when stated we would never get out of here.


Exactly. I worked in my dad's restaurant for over ten years. Close at 9PM meant CLOSED. If you kept letting people in you would never get done and get home.

Not to mention, he told me once that insurance would NOT cover you if you let someone in after hours and they robbed you!

AND as your helpful reminder: World entries are due Aug 21st!! One week from tomorrow!


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## drivinghoss

It is great that this issue is out there for all to see. There needs to be more transparency in the decisions and actions taken by the board.

I am sure there have been other issues that were taken care of with out all the members knowing the issues or outcomes.

If this issue is addressed publicly and explained fully, the members will have more respect and trust in the Board of Directors.


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## tikigirl

SO, What was the decision, did they let them in or not? Would be interested to know since I made sure I completed mine on time!


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## maestoso

I too feel for the clients, youth, and friends involved who may not get their horses shown because they relied on someone else, however...

I feel for the exhibitor who worked their butt off and met the deadlines, followed the rules, and will lose to the exhibitor who did not. If I was that exhibitor, I would be angry and I would lose faith in AMHR.

I think it's a little silly that they don't allow post entries, but the fact is, they don't. They haven't. The deadline was not a surprise, it wasn't the result of a rule change, it did not come out of no where.

This is not about all those things the original poster stated. These late entrants were careless and/or forgetful and that's all there is to it. Rules are rules and they are not meant to be broken. What is the point to a deadline if we allow a grace period? What happens when someone wants a grace period to the grace period?

I don't think these horses should be allowed to show. If they do let them in, AMHR will open itself up to a huge can of worms. If let in, the next time someone missed a deadline or a rule is in question, this incident will be referenced and AMHR will have no ground to stand on. I'm sorry to those who this effects. *You need to look to the people who let you down, not the registry who gave you everything you needed to get entered*. AMHR did its job, these 6 entrants did not. It is an unfortunate mistake that these trainers/exhibitors will never make again, I'm sure.


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## Mona

Excellent post Matt!


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## kaykay

I have been told by 2 different directors that there will be no BOD vote on this matter. They may discuss it via conference call (although even that is not set in stone) but there is no vote being taken. The entries were denied and returned.

I am surprised that many posting in favor of letting them in are normally very big on sticking to the rule book to the letter.

At the end of the day this show will be held again next year. And the year after and .....


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## Flying minis

Ok, so I have to ask, and if noone wants to put it on the forum, they can PM me. What happened in 2008? I wasn't involved with minis then, but keep hearing references to "what happened before" and now to "what happened in 2008"? Can someone enlighten me? Maybe some historical knowledge would be helpful in looking at current situations.


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## Jill

Long, upsetting story short: In 2008, some horses who had not qualified for Nationals showed at the Nationals and won or placed nicely. After people began to realize the horses in question had not qualified, there was a period of time where it went back and forth if those horses would keep their wins or not. In the end, they kept them. One of my horses took a Res. National Grand Champion title to an unqualified horse's "Grand"... Halter and driving classes were effected, and maybe others as well.


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## ctinsley

If the horses were not qualified, why did the registry not take there winnings from them, there is a big difference from sending late entries to totally not being qualified. The next horse in line should have moved up. We had a 2 year old fut filly (we were told she was in the fut) she placed quite nicely, apparently was not checked when entries were sent in but when sending the checks out she was bumped out and she should have been.


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## Jill

ctinsley said:


> If the horses were not qualified, why did the registry not take there winnings from them...


Because the right thing doesn't always happen.


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## ohmt

So the people effected by the post office error do not get to show, but in previous years horses that didn't even qualify were allowed to show and keep their placings?!

What in the world...how incredibly disappointing.


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## Minimor

For one thing, AMHR was partly to blame that year in that the entry form did not include the usual box where qualifying shows are supposed to be listed. BOD members have told me that when the office had an error in the entry forms they could not legally penalize owners for their error in showing horses that were not qualified. That is a good part of the reason the non-qualified horses did not have their awards taken away.


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## Flying minis

Thanks Jill, now I have some background, and I can certainly see why those who were involved in 2008 would want to ensure we "play by the rules" now. It makes a difference to know where people's viewpoints are coming from. I do think it muddies the water however, since the rules were not followed in that instance, if they are now it certainly seems like "reverse favoritism" - in other words, someone being penalized because of a prior incident, rather than being favored because of it.

I don't know what the answer is - I can see both sides clearly. I think in the end, perhaps it's like what my father always said about election voting - in the end, people tend to vote their pocketbooks. In these economic times, can we afford to disqualify 10% of our entries, and the associated $ they will bring in, and possibly alienate them all together?

However, at MINIMUM, I would say there needs to be a rule change proposal to address this situation in the future.


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## kaykay

To compare 2008 to this is apples to oranges. Totally different situations. 2008 was basically a clerical error (leaving the qualification off the form) that enabled people that knew better to keep their placings on horses that should have never shown at Nationals. Well and some other stuff was involved in that but no sense going there.

Not at all the same situation.

One thing I know is if it was me or some other small farm not a big name trainer/person, no one would care and it wouldn't even be an issue.


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## Belinda

The only thing I will comment on this Topic is when comparing to 2008 besides that you all do not have all the FACTS , and it is Apples to Oranges ,

THIS IS DIFFERENT BOARD !! Many who were on the board at that time are no longer on the board now so we have different views for several of the new members who are and should be about following rules !!! You can* not *hold folks accountable for what someone else has done in the past ..

I can assure you this is not being taken lightly !!!! This is terrible for all concerned including the board . So believe me when I say this is being looked at


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## Riverrose28

I was present at the National show in 2008 and can say that although I was disapointed at the time, it is over and done with, it can't be changed, and yes I was someone that it effected.

There is alot I disagree with at the National show, but that is for another time, another place! some of it has to do with the every horse has to be in the show program! It hits a nerve, since the horse only has to be listed in one class, then signed up for 20 and not listed in the show program. Another Day!


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## Jill

Belinda, are you saying the situation regarding what to do with the late entries is still unresolved?


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## Flying minis

Belinda said:


> You can* not *hold folks accountable for what someone else has done in the past ..


Actually, in an organization like this you can. Precedents are set. While the change in board and the current board's stance is different than the prior, the prior decision OF THE ORGANIZATION as made by the board certainly can be used as legal precedent.Not arguing whether the entries should or shouldn't be included, just saying absolutely new board members can be held accountable for - or rather, actions can be influenced by - what happened in the past by completely different people.


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## minie812

Well, I had heard about the issues in 2008 and with new people on the BOD I am hopeful they will do what is right for the AMHR and it's members as a whole even if it means a loss of revenue this year. Sad all the way around but more so for the youth. I guess it comes down to being responsible and quite blaming AMHR for the screwup. As for the Post Office if I didn't have a timestamp I would have driven somewhere else to get that done and believe me I do have to drive a distance to do that it isn't just around the corner. As Davie said she got her's in and was very ill so it can be done.


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## allaboutminis

Why put the blame on the post office? When the person should of got it hand stamp! Just how hard is that. Don't see how the BOD can vote on this anyways. And if that does happen well I do hope that there is a lot of protest out at nationals this year. And the ones that is putting the protest up would win anyways. As the BOD can not change a rule with out one summited before July 1st!


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## Barbie

When I've taken something to the post office because it needed to be postmarked that day, I've never looked at the postmark. I've watched it get stamped and thrown in a bag, box or whatever. You can bet from now on I WILL look at the postmark and make sure it's the proper date. I do feel bad for the people with the bad postmark.


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## RayVik

Just to clear a point in the last post

The BOD is responsible for managing and controlling the affairs of our organization. The idea of submitting rule changes by July 1 is something unrelated to their governing authority.

All committees and or members of them are set by the president and no committee has any binding authority for or about the organization. Their duty and function is solely to advise the BOD on matters under their preview. The is no requirement legal or otherwise that requires anyone not assigned to a committee by the president to be part of or participate in its work or process. That is totally up to the chair of each committee and even at that there is no requirement for the committee to accept or act on any vote (more like a straw poll ) taken from those members present but not otherwise assigned to that committee. Further just as a committee of assigned members can ignore or vote down any request or information brought to it by members the BOD can do the same with things brought to the by committee further and ultimately the BOD can make any changes to our rules and basically do whatever it deems in the best interest of our organization barring certain very specific items spelled out in the statues, articles, and bylaws

Again not want to debate or argue here just clearing the air


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## Dontworrybeappy

kaykay said:


> This story just gets bigger and bigger.
> 
> I did talk briefly to a director that said there is nothing the board can do as this is a rule in the rulebook and the board cannot go against that.
> 
> I do not ever want to see the board be able to vote against a rule in the rule book. That is really dangerous ground.
> 
> To change it going forward someone would have to propose a rule change and go thru proper channels.
> 
> I hate to be suspicious but I know when I mail something important I make the postal clerk stamp it right there while I watch. I do this all the time in the course of everyday business and always did it when I mailed show entries.
> 
> I am just taken aback that this many entries did not make it in on time especially from people that know better.
> 
> My heart does go out to the ones that don't get to show but ultimately it is not the organizations fault.


Exactly. Its a pretty simply written rule. And it doesn't say "except if people don't follow the rule...."

Sad that some people messed up. Especially those that had the responsibility to take care of other people's entries! But that is the fault of the person/people who messed up, not the fault of the rule that was in place for everybody.


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## allaboutminis

Well here it is they Bod can't not over ride this! The rules are set in place! And if they do that is setting them up for legal stuff and if they do I do hope it will happen as people in the past has been refused by they way the rule written! I would not want to be in that place! But there again they will do what they want and as I said before hope they are ready for the protest if they allow these horses in!!!!!


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## LaVern

It's a National Disaster.


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## tagalong

> It's a National Disaster.


Only for those who missed the deadline.

It happens for a variety of reasons - should all of them be excused depending on who you are and not the rules?

*LaVern* - I am sorry, but it was inappropriate of you to start a thread earlier naming names and saying they should be excused - when many people here would not know who was involved.

I am glad that the thread was deleted... that was NOT the way to handle this.

Late entries that missed the deadline = no entries.

Change the rule in the future to set up a penalty for entries that up to a week late or something - but IMO for now, this one stands.


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## LaVern

I guess most must have felt the same as you, perhaps it was a little too personal and passionate. However I dissagree with it not being a disaster for us all, because we won't get to compete with some of the best. I had kind of high hopes for a horse this year. Even if he gets a ribbon this year, it won't be a win in my opinion. I feel that you are only the best if you get to compete with the best and beat them.

I know my horse can beat some, but could he beat-- the nicest best funniest kindest most honest guy's (barn name) horse?


----------



## Jill

There will be many outstanding horses at the Nationals this year. I don't think anyone should feel their potential wins have been devalued.


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## mdegner

Tend to agree with Dr. Taylor.

Fine them with a late fee, let 'em show and clarify any rules/regs for future situations. IMO, that would be the best for all. Those who "did the right thing" by getting in on time would find "comfort" in there being a penalty, those who missed the deadline will feel it in their pocketbook (always reminds me not to make the same mistake), and it will be a better 2012 Nationals as everyone who chose to, may compete.


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## allaboutminis

mdegner said:


> Tend to agree with Dr. Taylor.
> 
> Fine them with a late fee, let 'em show and clarify any rules/regs for future situations. IMO, that would be the best for all. Those who "did the right thing" by getting in on time would find "comfort" in there being a penalty, those who missed the deadline will feel it in their pocketbook (always reminds me not to make the same mistake), and it will be a better 2012 Nationals as everyone who chose to, may compete.


So what you are saying that the BOD should be fine along with the others that missed the deadline. Okay well that still opens a can of worms up! I know for a fact that people has been refused in the past me for one! So I should just let this roll off of the ducks back? No I should not an font worry I will put my money up for a protest anytime at nationals on this!!!!! Along with my paper work from the past as this rule has not changed!!!! Let them do what they want but I hope at the end of the day they can live with they are doing or going to do!!!!


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## mdegner

Just my opinion, Allaboutminis. I was hoping for something thats feels like a "win/win" . Past mistakes or rigidity on the part of organizations or people, in my mind, is not a reason to not try and do a better job with decisions this time around. Again, just my humble opinion

I don't know what "they" will do, just glad I am not "them"....


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## billiethekid40

LaVern said:


> I had kind of high hopes for a horse this year. Even if he gets a ribbon this year, it won't be a win in my opinion. I feel that you are only the best if you get to compete with the best and beat them.


I've never been to nationals, probably never will and I don't really have an opinion on the subject of late enteries. However I have to ask... will you descredit every win you have because a trainers trailer broke down enroute and they missed their classes? Do you suggest that people owning "high quality" horses be subsidised if they cannot afford to show so you can feel you really earned your ribbons? Will you tell the winners of ribbons at nationals this year that their ribbons might as well be fake because they didn't place against "the best"?

Jill is right, there will be MANY high quality horses at nationals this year, there will also be MANY who do not show for lots of reasons- financial, didn't qualify, owner didn't get time off, family commitments, etc. This is the case every year, every show. Something to consider before you write off every red blue or other ribbon you earn at Nationals this year...


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## allaboutminis

mdegner said:


> Just my opinion, Allaboutminis. I was hoping for something thats feels like a "win/win" . Past mistakes or rigidity on the part of organizations or people, in my mind, is not a reason to not try and do a better job with decisions this time around. Again, just my humble opinion
> 
> I don't know what "they" will do, just glad I am not "them"....


There will be no win/win for anyone


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## LindaL

The decision for this year is done, so no need to continue the "what they should do" scenarios...and I feel VERY badly for those who are involved personally. I sincerely do!

However, I still stand by my opinion that "rules are rules" and should be abided by until someone changes them thru the normal process.

As far as your placings not meaning as much since "so-and-so's" horse isn't there...what?? Seriously?? There are always nice horses at Nationals and ANY ribbon you receive you should be proud of no matter whose horse wasn't there to compete against!


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## ohmt

Mary-I like your idea and do believe that would be close to a win/win. I understand the ruling though and am proud of the people that had to make this hard decision.



> people has been refused in the past me for one! So I should just let this roll off of the ducks back? No I should not an font worry I will put my money up for a protest anytime at nationals on this


Well this explains a lot. No need to hold onto all of the anger. The ruling was as you had wished and you can keep that protest money safe and sound. Maybe donate that to some people in need, like the Chapmans


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## ruffian

Some of the comments make me wonder - are they being allowed to show or not?


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## LindaL

No.


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## JMS Miniatures

LaVern said:


> I guess most must have felt the same as you, perhaps it was a little too personal and passionate. However I dissagree with it not being a disaster for us all, because we won't get to compete with some of the best. I had kind of high hopes for a horse this year. Even if he gets a ribbon this year, it won't be a win in my opinion. I feel that you are only the best if you get to compete with the best and beat them.
> 
> I know my horse can beat some, but could he beat-- the nicest best funniest kindest most honest guy's (barn name) horse?


Just sad to think that way.


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## Minimor

I guess we should just toss out the rule book, if it is so difficult and inconvenient for people to follow it? Makes me wonder just how many other rules how many other people don't see any point in following? I also have no idea why someone saying the rules must stand mesns the person lacks compassion. Seriously? One has nothing to do with the other!

What is really wrong with our world today? After reading a few comments here I have to say the problem would seem to stem from the fact that a number of people figure rules need to be followed only when it is convenient. I imagine many see laws the same way--this law is inconvenient and so it doesn't apply.


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## Miniequine

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> I also agree with Dr. Taylor, and was touched by the letter about those involved. I am appalled by the majority of comments here -- but not surprised by those that made them. Deadlines are made for *CONVENIENCE**.... *by those responsible for putting together catalogs and doing paperwork so everything looks "pretty". They were instituted for nothing else but convenience. Since the majority of paperwork was filed on time, doing 6 more envelops hurts NO ONE -- unless someone here is afraid to lose to one of the horses included in this mess. Lord knows rules are broken every day....but to err on the side of compassion is what true "justice" is about.
> 
> _Compassion is not sentiment but is making justice and doing works of mercy. Compassion is not a moral commandment but a flow and overflow of the fullest human and divine energies. --Matthew Fox _
> 
> _Compassion is the ultimate and most meaningful embodiment of emotional maturity. It is through compassion that a person achieves the highest peak and deepest reach in his or her search... --Arthur Jersild _
> 
> I won't comment here again, but I think it's sad to see the lack of compassion for those who have found themselves in this situation because of someone's error. I think many here need to look up the word "compassion" and stop worrying about "convenience rules". Amazing to see comments by those who are so vehement on this thread....making nicities on "another" thread. Certainly explains what is happening in our world today.
> 
> JMHO ~~Diane at Castle Rock.



Thank you Diane,, My thoughts all day.



((( !!!!! !


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## mdegner

Agreed Diane and MiniEquine and Amanda....who if you go back 15 pages started this whole thread. Don't you go back to school soon Amanda? LOL


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## RayVik

Time to move on

It's been interesting


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## ohmt

I did, Mary, yes. Wish I wouldn't have! I did it at the request of the person who wrote the letter...had no idea that this is what was going to result. I'll know better for next time.

Thanks for the reminder, Mary (not!). I start class on Monday. I wish I could say I'm looking forward to it, but this is my 5th year and I'm really ready to just be done with it all. I told Jeff he needs to buy me my dream farm and let me stay home with the horses. I don't think he was too keen on that idea lol. So, grad school it is!


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## mdegner

Yeah, unless I win the lottery tonight, which is totallly in my business plan. HA HA...... I will set you up for LIFE..... In the inimitable words of Mr Robert Zimmerman, "be good my friend"


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## wildoak

> Just my opinion, Allaboutminis. I was hoping for something thats feels like a "win/win" . Past mistakes or rigidity on the part of organizations or people, in my mind, is not a reason to not try and do a better job with decisions this time around. Again, just my humble opinion
> 
> I don't know what "they" will do, just glad I am not "them"....


Have to agree with this, and with Diane's/Castle Rock post. But since this is apparently a done deal now, I hope rules will be changed in the future to allow a little flexibility. No real reason not to allow late entries, with an appropriate penalty.

Jan


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## kaykay

> There will be many outstanding horses at the Nationals this year. I don't think anyone should feel their potential wins have been devalued.


Don't anyone have a heart attack but for once Jill and I agree.

To devalue anyone's placings at Nationals is a great injustice to those that got their horses qualified, got their entries in and show up to Nationals.


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## minimomNC

Why is the one that was at the post office on July 25th, they have two letters confirming this, why does this one bother people the most? Yes, there was a mistake made, but when you do something the same way year after year, why would you think this year there would be a problem. These entries were in the post office in time, so why shouldn't they be able to show. They complied and the post office has confirmed it was their fault. So why should they be punished for something that was out of their control? What if you made a payment by mail the same way month after month, then one month you put the envelop in the mail slot like you always do but it fell in a corner instead. It wasn't found until a day or so later but now your payment is late and your charged late fees. Whose fault would it be? Yours, you dropped it a the post office the way you always do, but say the post office gave you a letter explaining it was their fault, do you think the company should accept that and take off the late fees? Sometimes you just have to give someone the benefit of the doubt, and hope that on a day you needed it, they would too. I can understand the entries that were a week late, but the ones in the post office on time, I just don't think its fair.


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## drmatthewtaylor

minimomNC said:


> Why is the one that was at the post office on July 25th, they have two letters confirming this, why does this one bother people the most? Yes, there was a mistake made, but when you do something the same way year after year, why would you think this year there would be a problem. These entries were in the post office in time, so why shouldn't they be able to show. They complied and the post office has confirmed it was their fault. So why should they be punished for something that was out of their control? What if you made a payment by mail the same way month after month, then one month you put the envelop in the mail slot like you always do but it fell in a corner instead. It wasn't found until a day or so later but now your payment is late and your charged late fees. Whose fault would it be? Yours, you dropped it a the post office the way you always do, but say the post office gave you a letter explaining it was their fault, do you think the company should accept that and take off the late fees? Sometimes you just have to give someone the benefit of the doubt, and hope that on a day you needed it, they would too. I can understand the entries that were a week late, but the ones in the post office on time, I just don't think its fair.


Although I do not know every detail, I do think some of the aggravation is based on the misconception that Postal workers were present when the entry was delivered. This Postal Service machine is set up to take mail 24/7 without workers present. The machine wasn't working that evening.

Dr. Taylor


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## Margot

This is a sad situation. I know some of the people involved and feel badly for them. I am not going to Nationals this year but I can understand why people on both sides of the issue feel strongly. There is a rule and apparently in the past people who were late have been denied entry so I can see until some new rules are set up to address this issue, and I am sure there will be a lot of discussion, that the rule has to be followed or it would certainly have the appearance of favoritism, something that is very bad for any organization. I think the entry date could be made later but I am not so sure about allowing post entries past a certain date as with a show this size the logistics of getting everything ready must be mind boggling. As far as feeling that the show is devalued without certain entries I cannot agree with that as there are many wonderful horses that will be shown there and who can say ahead of time which of them might have won as past winnings do not always mean you will win again. Anyone who does win can certainly feel proud of their accomplishments. I hope we can put this behind us and use it as a learning experience although it will not make the people involved feel any better it will certainly make entrants much more cautious in the future about getting entries in on time.


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## dannigirl

Deleted by me.


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## ctinsley

Hi Angie, from what I have heard the decision has not been made. And, apparently the rule has been changed several times over the last few years as to entry dates, I got out my 2005 rule book and it stated entries were due in 21 days before the start of Nationals, then I understand the date for the last several years has been Aug 1, then the date moved up to Jul 25th, why have all these changes been made, and when were they all voted on. I feel sorry for everyone involved but especially the youth that have worked so hard all summer, could not submit their own entries, so had nothing to do with this whole mess.


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## kaykay

> Hi Angie, from what I have heard the decision has not been made.


And this is where confusion comes in. I have been told by 3 directors now that it is and was decided when the entries were rejected and returned and that there would be no BOD vote.

I think its time for our President Pat Sanders to make a public statement and put an end to the rumors once and for all. He can send it out in an email blast on the ASPC/AMHR system.


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## LaVern

Just whatiffing. What if there had been a big old postal disaster that shut down the system for a spell and say 95% of us were late. No Nationals?


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## RayVik

Who can figure the logic

One could send a empty envelope postmarked before July 25 and as clearly stated on the entry form only have their entry delayed but send a complete package a day late and be excluded. If the rule says no entries after the closing date then how can you exclude your entry form from your package and be accepted yet turned down a day late. If we can waive or bend or adjust the rule by making exception for any reason to accept incomplete missing info or horses technically unqualified at the deadline date why bother turning away any. Considering that many feel the nationals is something of a obligation of the organization to its members to give back then wouldn't that same organization do any and everything to both make the show complete as well as to do whatever it could to ensure no one is left out for such a reason. When several clearly written rules were present the BOD did not hesitate in changing them AFTER the fact in order to accommodate a facility for a national show last year. Notwithstanding those retroactive changes caused hardship to many where in this case only principle is involved. We increased fees to offset cost on one show and turn away entries on another. Yes time can cause changes in additudes and concepts. We started this year cutting fees on hard shipping and membership fees in hopes to bring in new members and bring back previous members now we turn away income and alienate otherwise both long standing and long term supporting members. We spend money to hold facilities when our rules clearly state the selection process for considering a facility so where does a decission to gamble our money to hold dates come from.

We are promised transparency and resolutions are pass like minutes will be posted in a timely manner yet the minutes of that meetings minute fail to appear. I for one am all for following our rules completely and as written and as intended however a certain amount of consistency and fairness in their application to everyone and anyone treated equally

It will be interesting to see if the passions and frustration brought forth on this topic about how we do things will carry forward toward making or organization better or if those additudes were focused to the subject matter of this thread

Like I said and understand the BOD is tasked with doing what it feels best for this organization and if you or I agree or disagree we are bond to follow their decisions but it is comforting to be given insight into their motive and understanding by way of information rather then just outcome.

Either way life goes on and i often find myself wondering if I were a horse what would I think about all this

No need to elaborate about my resemblance to a specific portion of a horses anatomy lol

Hope to see everyone at nationals even if your not showing

Stop by for a chat and refreshment


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## Jill

Hey, Kay... I have to say I nearly posted the same thing on the "Poll" thread. You made some very astude points there, with which I agree. Who'da thunk it?


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## disneyhorse

If the postal machine was broken, then go the extra mile and drive to a different post office. For a national show I think it would be worth it. Aggravating, yes, but how many times in life have any of us had to run around to get something done right?


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## Margot

I think the point is that the entries were dropped after hours at the post office and the people had no way of knowing the machine was not working. I noticed that AMHA says their entries must be hand stamped.


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## cc0623

I AM ONE OF THE OWNERS THAT HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THIS SITUATION!!!!

Now I have your attention, I would like to state that I just found about this situation, the trainer has not even had the consideration to notify me. I was notified by another individual.

I am floored, shocked, disgusted and beyond ANGRY! I have spent over $5,000.00 in fees and expenses promoting my stallion to compete at nationals this year. I trusted the trainer to do his job and that included my National entries. What alot of people are not realizing is the considerable LOSS to all these owners and the considerable investment made by these owners into this breed and registry.

I went into this breed a little over 2 years ago. I have invested over $60,000.00 into this industry within 2 years. From trainers fees, purchasing tack from miniature tack companies, purchasing all my 30 horses from some of the top breeders in this country, to show fees, registration fees, etc., feed, and equipment and I have had enough!

I have paid an exorbitant price to a be a part of something I thought was going to be spectacular and fun and I have found out completely different. For all you "Rules are Rules" people out there, yes there is a reason for rules. There is also a reason for a board, and the board should take into consideration the owners should not be penalized for the actions of trainer. The trainer made a mistake for whatever reason. I seriously doubt it was intentional, but the trainer should be sanctioned not the owners that are just as much victims of this situation. If the registry does not have the common sense to see this situation for what it is, then I want no part of this registry and if the other members do not have the decency to understand this was beyond the control of the owners then I do not want any part of them either. What is our country coming too. What happened to reason? When did people become so petty, malicious and vindictive?


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## allaboutminis

cc0623 said:


> I AM ONE OF THE OWNERS THAT HAVE BEEN AFFECTED BY THIS SITUATION!!!!
> 
> Now I have your attention, I would like to state that I just found about this situation, the trainer has not even had the consideration to notify me. I was notified by another individual.
> 
> I am floored, shocked, disgusted and beyond ANGRY! I have spent over $5,000.00 in fees and expenses promoting my stallion to compete at nationals this year. I trusted the trainer to do his job and that included my National entries. What alot of people are not realizing is the considerable LOSS to all these owners and the considerable investment made by these owners into this breed and registry.
> 
> I went into this breed a little over 2 years ago. I have invested over $60,000.00 into this industry within 2 years. From trainers fees, purchasing tack from miniature tack companies, purchasing all my 30 horses from some of the top breeders in this country, to show fees, registration fees, etc., feed, and equipment and I have had enough!
> 
> I have paid an exorbitant price to a be a part of something I thought was going to be spectacular and fun and I have found out completely different. For all you "Rules are Rules" people out there, yes there is a reason for rules. There is also a reason for a board, and the board should take into consideration the owners should not be penalized for the actions of trainer. The trainer made a mistake for whatever reason. I seriously doubt it was intentional, but the trainer should be sanctioned not the owners that are just as much victims of this situation. If the registry does not have the common sense to see this situation for what it is, then I want no part of this registry and if the other members do not have the decency to understand this was beyond the control of the owners then I do not want any part of them either. What is our country coming too. What happened to reason? When did people become so petty, malicious and vindictive?


It is still up to you to make sure your stuff went in!!!!!! Point blank! I have had horses with trainers and have done it my self too! Point is it is totally up to you to make sure you get your money in on time!

I was refused last year on one of mine. Oh well he will make it out there this year! How hard is it to pick up a phone and call to make sure! I have done it in the past with trainers. I look at it this way you know what shows you have had your horse or horses at this year contact the person who was running the show and get them to sign off and then send your money and paper work in no big deal! If your trainer can not understand this then the trainer should not be training! And if your trainer was doing her or her job this would not of happen again point blank!


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## mdegner

So sorry Tiffany. I would be very upset as well. I feel bad for you and the others impacted by this.

I wish the AMHR power (s) that be would send out a definitve statement on what the decision is, if one has been made. In the meantime, I will continue to hope. . .


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## LaVern

AMHR Nationals is my school. I have a masters degree of Hard Knocks from it. I have a minor in the Gate Classes. But it has been a good school. And I think I have learned from some of the best professors around, not the judges, but the breeders and the exhibitors.

Each year I get to see my miniature horses standing out there with all the others, and it helps me figure out what I have to do to improve. I study all day and cram all night walking the stalls for 10 days of finals. I try to stuff every horse there in my head, to take home with me, so that I can look at mine more objectively. I try to visit and pick the brains of everyone. Anything to learn.

I think that is part of the reason that I am so upset that some of my professors are being denied. It is not them that I feel so bad for, it is for myself. I have a lot invested in horses that I want to see stand out there so that I can compare them with all the horses, and now my education is going to be sacrificed. This Horse Higher Education is very expensive and I don't think I will be getting my monies worth in 2012. Loser LaVern


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## Minimor

Yes, the 2005 rule book specified 21 days in advance of the show was the close of entries.  BUT, and this is a HUGE but, the AMHR COMMITTEE through the proper channels changed that line to read:

The closing entry date for the National Show shall be determined by the Show Management.

That means the show manager sets the closing date (with the assistance of the office and the show advisory committee I would presume).  Since 2007 the closing date has been as early as July 17th and as late as August 1st.  Entries closed on July 25th in 2011 and 2012.  Once the closing date is published in the premium book for all to see there is no means with which to change it. 

It is also my understanding that the no late entry rule has come up for discussion several times in the AMHR Committee since it was first passed in the early 1990's and in each instance the AMHR Committee has decided to leave the rule as is and not accept late entries.  If you want that changed make a proposal, submit it by July 1st, and then go to Convention and participate in the AMHR Committee meeting and attempt to get it changed.  That is the proper channel for changing a membership enacted rule. 

Tiffany--The ASPC/AMHR has nothing to do with the trainer/client relationship.  The trainer not doing his or her job and not getting entries in on time is a civil matter between the client and the trainer.  ASPC/AMHR doesn't endorse or sanction trainers. 

I would point out that this had been broadcast far and wide because one person chose to write a letter to the BOD (and then post it all over the Internet) in an attempt to gather sympathy and to gather support for that letter, which requested that the BOD vote in favor of overturning the late entry rule in this instance.


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## cc0623

I have no clue who posted this on the internet, but I can tell you I learned of this situation from an individual that viewed this site. I am not asking for anyone's sympathy. The board can decide this matter pertaining to these entries. I am not asking the Board to resolve a petty argument between a trainer and client. I am asking the Board not to penalize a group of people for a situation that was beyond their control. I can assure you every one of the owners would have been happy to send in their entries in a timely manner if we were not assured the matter was handled by a person paid to do their business. The Board has the latitude to allow these entries in even if it means penalizing the owners with a fee.


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## Minimor

Like Kay I too have heard from Directors that the BOD won’t be voting on this, that it is a done deal, the entries were returned and are denied.  As someone said, the BOD is not required to vote on “following the rules”—that is just a matter of course.


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## LaVern

That would be me, I think, I hope. Thank you Minimor for the nice complement, but gee there are many others with sympathy and compassion.


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## allaboutminis

I am not a hateful person. Our monies and paper work was maybe 2 days late and was still told no! I am not the first one this has happen to and I will not be the last . But I have learned from this. Our stuff is sent in way before it closes as I don't want to be told no again! So it was fine for us and others to be told No! But it is fine for these people to be told yes well I do hope the AMHR is ready for some protest I and others have their money just waiting for these horses to show along with the trainer that was in the beach playing volley ball as the posted on fb and the Bod and the rest! Because the bod can not change a rule!


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## Minimor

You lost me there for a minute LaVern, but I think I got it now. Sorry, it was actually someone else that posted her letter first on FB and then it spread to the forums, and I think it was some of the owners involved who had sent stuff around before that yet about their problem. I just wanted to clarify that in my earlier post, because some sound so accusing about this topic being up for public viewing. If those involved didn't want it talked about, it was one of their own supporters who put it "out there". I believe it was meant to help, not cause flak!


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## drmatthewtaylor

I have great sympathy for members who have been impacted by this rule both past and present. I only hope there will be no need to have remorse in the future as the rule needs changed. It is flabbergasting me how this rule has been allowed to be enforced apparently repeatedly to the detriment of the AMHR.

I certainly understand why members of the BOD don't frequent these sites, but I'm surprised no committee member has reported the need and logic behind the rule. "Rules are Rules" is a pretty weak argument if the Rules have no or little basis in preventing cheating or dealing with safety. Otherwise its simply bureaucratic red tape.

AMHR needs to be an organization where the attitude is 'welcome, how can we help?'; not 'its your responsibility to know and learn every rule (and there are a lot of them)'.

Dr. Taylor


----------



## targetsmom

Dr. Taylor - You would have my vote for the BOD in a heartbeat!! Would you run? Please!!!


----------



## kaykay

Tiffany

I am so sorry for what you are going through. I truly sympathize.

But this



> I am floored, shocked, disgusted and beyond ANGRY!


Should only be directed to your trainer who neglected their professional duties to get your entries in before the deadline.

ASPC/AMHR is not responsible for what paid trainers do or don't do. Please don't fault an entire association over a irresponsible trainer.

The only year I got to go to Nationals my entries went in with a trainers. And even though I love and adore her I still called to verify with her that they got sent in before the deadline.


----------



## mdegner

targetsmom said:


> Dr. Taylor - You would have my vote for the BOD in a heartbeat!! Would you run? Please!!!


What Target said....ditto


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## disneyhorse

If a trainer breaks some other rule, such as being late to a gate call, should the Registry allow the horse to go back in the ring? After all, it wouldn't be the owner's fault the horse wasn't in the ring on time.

I do feel bad, but no matter who is to blame, the entries weren't in on time.

To move forward though, a monetary penalty should be considered for next year's late entries.


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## fortheloveofminis

I am disappointed in the registry. I have turned in my entries on time, but know many who have been less fortunate. It amazes that registry would turn down thousands of dollars in this economy! The only people loosing here are clients, and the only people gaining are people who don't want extra competition. Without competition there is no industry. Many of those with late entries are not small people within the industry, and have put many years and time and have been very successful. To me we are deterring people from wanting to show the small equine. I also feel the registry picks which day it wants to follow the rules. We need to promote the small equine not make people unhappy. An extra fine to those who are late would suffice. I also find it horrible that this information went public. It should have been kept confidential until a decision was made.


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## Minimor

To be honest I believe that by the time it went public the decision had already been made. The entries were refused and sent back-- and that is when someone chose to post about the matter, hoping to convince the BOD to overturn that decision that had been made by show management.


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## Jill

Minimor said:


> To be honest I believe that by the time it went public the decision had already been made. The entries were refused and sent back-- and that is when someone chose to post about the matter, hoping to convince the BOD to overturn that decision that had been made by show management.


This is also what I think.


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## Dontworrybeappy

When I was showing Arabians, I had a trainer who had forgotten to enter my horse in a Regional show class. She hauled it to the show, had it ready and was dressed to go in before she realized he wasn't entered. She argued with show management, but they stuck to their rules. As the owner, I wasn't responsible for the error, and yes, we were all very upset, but in joining the registry and showing in it's shows, I'd agreed to abide by the rules. It would not have been fair to the other entrants who had followed the rules if they had decided to BREAK the rule to let my horse show.

This situation was COMPLETELY my trainer's fault. She did NOT check all the horse's entries when she got to the show. If she had checked those entries ANY time in the many days she was there before my horse's class, she could have gotten him into the class. (and yes, I had PAID her for my entry, so guess who kept that money? Not the show!) If I had been there and had ANY idea that this person I had trusted with my beloved horse and my money was really a scatter-brained idiot, I could have followed up on my own and played by the rules. But I didn't. It was NOT the show management's fault, it was the fault of my trainer. It was NOT the registry's fault, it was the fault of my trainer.

I didn't fight the show management or the registry, and I really didn't fight the trainer, as she made me many special "deals" to make it up to me. In hindsight, I should have taken that very large hint and gotten far away from her, but that is another story.

I _*learned*_ from this.... know the rules and make sure that everyone you are working with is following these rules. That way you GET to show with the rest of the people who ALSO follow the rules. Personally, I would rather believe that I'm showing with people who play by the rules, even though I do know that many people are trying to find ways around them instead. That sullies us all - those people who try to get around the rules.

Yes, the owners who trusted the trainer(s) to follow the rules lost out this year. Next year if they show they'll know to either go with a more responsible trainer, or follow up to make sure their trainer is following the rules. (and I think that your trainer sure owes you something big to make this up to you, whether you stay with that trainer or not!)

Don't like the rule? There are processes in place to change rules in the future.... do that if you feel strongly it must be changed. OTOH, it is easier to just learn from this and move on... heartbreaking as it is right now. I do feel your pain and I'm sorry for your situation.


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## streaker

All I have to say is that I feel sorry for all the people that trusted others and there entries did not go threw... I am not asking AMHR to change rules for these people but I would expect the fancy to show Empathy to these individuals. What ever your opinion might be there are innocent people that did not try to get special treatment that worked hard to get there horses qualified and the only error was trusting someone else to mail in there entries after they have sent all the info in time. If people cannot see this then I am sorry it's sad. Frank


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## fortheloveofminis

streaker said:


> All I have to say is that I feel sorry for all the people that trusted others and there entries did not go threw... I am not asking AMHR to change rules for these people but I would expect the fancy to show Empathy to these individuals. What ever your opinion might be there are innocent people that did not try to get special treatment that worked hard to get there horses qualified and the only error was trusting someone else to mail in there entries after they have sent all the info in time. If people cannot see this then I am sorry it's sad. Frank


I completely agree with you, no better way to say it. It is such an unfortunate situation, it's really sad. I can't imagine how I would feel.


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## dreamlandnh

nicely stated Frank!


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## Jean_B

I spoke directly with one of the parties that was impacted by this.

They DID do due-diligence in trying to get their entries in on time. This was a large group that stalls together so they rounded up all the entries so that they could be sent in together. The entries WERE taken to the post office on the date that they had to be postmarked - BUT it was the POST OFFICE that screwed these people out of the opportunity to show because their machine was not working on that particular day - and the POST OFFICE held the envelope and it was the POST OFFICE that post-marked it the following day when they then sent it in. It was NOT the fault of ANY of the exhibitors. They have EVIDENCE to the fact that they brought it to the POST OFFICE on time but because the POST OFFICE was out of order, all these people are being denied the opportunity to show.

Even with evidence that they did everything RIGHT - they are being denied the opportunity to show THROUGH NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN.

I am not advocating that if they are post-marked a week late that they be allowed to show, but these people who got head-butted by the Post Office are getting the short end of the stick. Just sayin'.


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## RayVik

Without questioning the details as facts I would say that given those circumstances as posted I would certainly hope the situation was at least given consideration and decided based on more then just someone looking at the postmark and sending it back as has also been posted.

It would be so sad to think we as a organization have become so rigid with our rules as to surpass and reject any consideration of reasonable or practical review of their application given all possible circumstances.


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## JMS Miniatures

The registry definitively needs to do something different. I think this situation was just so difficult considering it was multiple entries that were late, not just 1. I think they should put something on the table at Convention this year to vote on.

Despite everything that's happened it'll still be a great show with wonderful competition and anyone who says anything else is kidding themselves.


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## SampleMM

I do not show AMHR but will be doing so next year. What I can't wrap my head around is why AMHR doesn't offer admittance with a late fee. There are many people, myself included who do everything at the last minute. I would never even consider entering my horse in the middle of summer to an expensive show such as Nationals unless I thought my horse would be right up there at the top. Now, how would I know that until the end of the show season? I always make my decision on World's at the very end of the show season.


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## ruffian

Nationals is a HUGE show - well over 1,000 horses, with several thousand (guesstimate) entries. This is NOT something that can be thrown together at the last minute. I've been a show manager at the local level, and HATED the folks that sent their entries in at the last minute or showed up at the show, entries in hand. The cut off date is not an arbitrary date set to see who can miss it. It's set to allow the people in the office to enter all the horses into the computer. To let the grounds know how many stalls they need. How much bedding needs to be on hand. Figure out the stalling - who goes where etc. This is not something that can be done in a day or two. Estimating 1,000 entries, and approximately 30 days to get them entered, that works out to 40 entries per day. And that's just doing entries, no other registry work or stalling, or any of that.

This is not the Registry's fault. The fact that one of the folks put their entry into the post office but the post office had an issue is moot. Why wait until the last day?

I hope everybody has safe travels to and from Nationals, and has a wonderful time. It's an incredible event, and I applaud the registry for all the hard work they do to make this possible for the rest of us.


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## bluerogue

I feel horribly for the people whose entries were denied this year. I do think the people that the post office screwed over should be allowed to show, as long as they have proof from the post office that their entry was on time, and it was the post offices mistake. In that case, the post office screwed up... not the entrants. I feel especially horrible for those who were screwed by their trainer. I can't even imagine what they must feel. I'd be beyond peeved about that.

Regarding a rule change, which is the only way to theoretically fix this for the future... what about submitting a rule change for this rule that will allow a "penalty period"? A period of say two weeks or something after the close of entries, that if you entry is postmarked in the period you will be accrued a penalty, but accepted. After the penalty period has passed, no additional entries will be allowed. It doesn't have to be two weeks, that's just what popped into my head. It could be 2 days, or something, just long enough to allow for post offices flops and whatnot. That way, cases such as have been mentioned, where the postmark was wrong, or a day or two late will still show, but will be penalized for being late.


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## drmatthewtaylor

ruffian said:


> Nationals is a HUGE show - well over 1,000 horses, with several thousand (guesstimate) entries. This is NOT something that can be thrown together at the last minute. I've been a show manager at the local level, and HATED the folks that sent their entries in at the last minute or showed up at the show, entries in hand. The cut off date is not an arbitrary date set to see who can miss it. It's set to allow the people in the office to enter all the horses into the computer. To let the grounds know how many stalls they need. How much bedding needs to be on hand. Figure out the stalling - who goes where etc.	This is not something that can be done in a day or two. Estimating 1,000 entries, and approximately 30 days to get them entered, that works out to 40 entries per day. And that's just doing entries, no other registry work or stalling, or any of that.
> 
> This is not the Registry's fault. The fact that one of the folks put their entry into the post office but the post office had an issue is moot. Why wait until the last day?
> 
> I hope everybody has safe travels to and from Nationals, and has a wonderful time. It's an incredible event, and I applaud the registry for all the hard work they do to make this possible for the rest of us.


If that's true, then why does the AMHR allow post entries? Most exhibitors enter a horse just once prior to the deadline and then make the rest of the entries at the show. If your argument were correct then 100% of the entries should be made by the deadline.

Plus, its the Show Manager that makes the deadline, but the ASPC/AMHR Office that processes the entries. If the problem is the Office work (and I do appreciate there needs to be some incentive to have most entries in early enough) then why would the Show Manager set the deadline instead of the Office?

Finally, whether or not its the Post Office's fault I don't is the question, the question is; whether or not it was reasonable for an individual to expect a Government body to perform there promised duties on time? If the Government fails and admits to the failure, then why would the individual be at fault? I don't think anyone is at fault, rather crap happens and should an individual be punished for something happening beyond their control?

Dr. Taylor


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## Minimor

The difficult part of processing entries is entering the info in the first place...putting in the horse's name, owner name, assigning a number, figuring out stall assignments. Once it is all in the system (and I am assuming that the people doing Natuonals entries use a computer) then it is easy to add classes for those entered horses. I imagine that is why horses must be entered in advance but classes can be added later.


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## RayVik

I have to say I must be rhe luckiest person on earth as my life is geared toward trust in many things involving dependency upon both the system and individuals.

When I pay my bills I put them in the mailbox

When I buy food I trust the store

When I am sick I trust my doctor

When I drive I trust the road signs

I cannot imagine how my life would be driving to every place I owe to pay my bills

Or

Having a lab test every bit of food before I eat

Or

Getting second or third or forth opinions when I needed stiches

Or

Trying to back my car out of my drive to do any of the above knowing that no matter what happens I might of or could of or would of or SHOULD of.....would drive me insane

But my luckiest part is I have been fortunate that the people around me could be trusted to support and help and even defend me when malady has occured

When my horses have gotten out of their stall at shows people helped catch them not set back and say I should of tied and chained and welded my door shut

When I had a auto accident people stopped and rendered aid and didn't just drive by screaming you should of left I min earlier

When I had the flu people helped me feed and care for my animals rather the just call and say " you should of gotten a flu shot

call me lazy or crazy or just lucky but know and believe that I don't take any of the compassion or empathy or support and most of all help I have gotten for granted nor will I loose sight of my trust in others to offer any and all of the above

when I find myself on the short side of a situation


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## Jean_B

RayVik said:


> I have to say I must be rhe luckiest person on earth as my life is geared toward trust in many things involving dependency upon both the system and individuals.
> 
> When I pay my bills I put them in the mailbox
> 
> When I buy food I trust the store
> 
> When I am sick I trust my doctor
> 
> When I drive I trust the road signs
> 
> I cannot imagine how my life would be driving to every place I owe to pay my bills
> 
> Or
> 
> Having a lab test every bit of food before I eat
> 
> Or
> 
> Getting second or third or forth opinions when I needed stiches
> 
> Or
> 
> Trying to back my car out of my drive to do any of the above knowing that no matter what happens I might of or could of or would of or SHOULD of.....would drive me insane
> 
> But my luckiest part is I have been fortunate that the people around me could be trusted to support and help and even defend me when malady has occured
> 
> When my horses have gotten out of their stall at shows people helped catch them not set back and say I should of tied and chained and welded my door shut
> 
> When I had a auto accident people stopped and rendered aid and didn't just drive by screaming you should of left I min earlier
> 
> When I had the flu people helped me feed and care for my animals rather the just call and say " you should of gotten a flu shot
> 
> call me lazy or crazy or just lucky but know and believe that I don't take any of the compassion or empathy or support and most of all help I have gotten for granted nor will I loose sight of my trust in others to offer any and all of the above
> 
> when I find myself on the short side of a situation


VERY VERY well stated!!


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## mdegner

It "ain't over till its over"......I guess it "ain't" over yet.....agree (again) with Dr Taylor and RayVick..... I am waiting for a hero here....can't some one step up and make this right?

And, this is the first time EVER where we have a horse going to nationals that is straight off the farm...our breeding all the way....lest someone think I don't have some skin in the game.

Let them show, spank them with a fine, learn from this and be a better org because of it....come on, someone have some courage and do the right thing.....


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## gumby

OK some people may not like what I am going to say here, but I cannot hold back on this and I never post on these boards..

I cannot believe an association this size is so stingent and hard on this deadline and is relying on a post mark stamp from a post office. What if the post mark was correct and the entries took longer than ususal to get to the office. Are they going to have time to process these entries? I do not believe this is all about being able to process the entries.

Is this association so strong it can afford the loss of entrants, money and the trust of these members that have supported it for so long. In all the time this has been discussed and fought over. There was plenty of time to process these entries and tack on a big enough fine, that if they were serious about showing it would not have mattered to them and there could have been money made here for something else. Too bad so much energy has been spent to get these entrants not to show instead of being possitive and figuring out how to make it work for all. Yeah there were others that got there entries in on time, good for all that did. I would hope that any one truely interested in showing would want as many horses there as possible to show against. God forbid if any of the decision maker`s or the powers that be for this out come should break a rule at some point.

I have to agree with mdegner, as Dr Phil would say, Every situation deserves a hero. I really wish everyone would have worked for a WIN WIN situation here.


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## Minimor

I should have said this in my earlier post...

The entry date is set by Show Management but Show Management does so in cooperation with the Office and the Show Committee. 

The office processes the entries but so does Show Management.  The Office makes copies of the entries, processes the payment, and sends the original entries on to Show Management to put into their system.


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## Minimor

Right in the Nationals premium book it notes that you can cancel your entry with a $50 penalty until August 15th.  So not knowing if your horse is or isn't going to be at that perfect show stage isn't an excuse to wait until last minute to enter - up until August 15th you could have still backed out with a small penalty. 

You know I feel sorry for the decision makers in this registry. For years everyone has wanted the rule book followed and now suddenly when we have a Board that is treating it as their bible we have everyone fussing that exceptions should be made for this, that or the other.  We can't have it both ways. 

Some things to think about:  Next year if there is a penalty with another drop dead entry date what happens when someone has "intent" to mail on that final drop dead entry date and pay all the penalties but has something go wrong and it is postmarked late?  Wouldn't that put the AMHR in the same pickle they were in this year?  Logistically is it even possible to accept entries right up until the start of the show?  Are the AMHR Committee and the members that vote at Convention going to be willing to remove the rule that requires every horse be listed in the show program?  What about late entries for payback classes like the Amateur Incentives?  What about Youth entries?  What happens when Youth entries must be in by the deadline but the trainer decides to pay the price and mail after the deadline?  Can all the paperwork be done for Youth High Point awards if the Youth aren't required to pre-enter?  What about Futurity entries?  Any proposal to change this rule is going to need to answer all these questions and probably many more.  

The no late entry rule isn't a rule AMHR pulled out of thin air, it dates back 15 to 20 years and was put in place by the AMHR Committee.  I'm sure they had many valid reasons for implementing it and I'm sure they have had valid reasons for not changing it.  I'm also sure that if the rule remains the same that it will be a very, very long time before an entry comes in with a late postmark again. 

I do think the root of the problem is that Show Management (NOT the AMHR) requires entries to go in together in order to be stalled together.  I feel another system for allowing people to stall together needs to be found so that each individual entrant is responsible for their own entries and does not need to trust in someone else to get their entries postmarked in time.


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## minimomNC

I would bet the reason for implementing a dead line was they didn't use computer systems the same way if at all. Since there seems to have never been an issue like this in 15 - 20 years, no one thought about updating it, but with computer systems today, there is no reason to not have at least a 5 day grace period. Not two weeks, not a month, but 5 days with a penalty. For the amount of time it has taken to make the decision to not let these 165 horses show, and lose almost $50,000, they could have been in the system with a penalty. It would have been done before Aug 15 and the show would have gone on like every other year.

As for postmark, I would even bet that the entries mailed with the July 26th postmark got to the office before some of the entries mailed on July 24th or 25th. Sometimes thats how the postal service works.


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## RayVik

Short and quick

If we only need people to enforce rules our country would only need police no judges or courts or governing body or any other group to determine fairness or validity

When your stopped and you don't have your insurance card because it was delayed by the post office you go directly to jail where you remain for 1 year because the law says you must have proof of insurance when operating a motor vehicle. Thats the law no excuses exceptions or mercy

Been a law a long time and was made for good reason so the only question you get asked is do you want the top bunk or the bottom bunk

That's sounds like what many here are trying to suggest about our rules

I expect my directors and leadership to stand in front of the rules not hide behind them...they are the ONLY ones that can make them enforce them or change them


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## ruffian

Yes Ray - our system of government is based on the understanding that people will follow the rules. If you don't follow the rules, there are penalties. In this case, some folks don't get to attend.

If , as some have suggested, a "grace period" is allowed, what happens when someone misses the grace period??

The law states that if you don't have proof of insurance you pay a fine, if You don't have insurance, you can go to jail or face a fine, depending on the judge. IMO the "judge" aka Show Committee has made their decision. AMHR rules state if you miss the deadline, you don't get to show. Doesn't say possibly not be able to show. Or probably won't be able to show. It's very very unfortunate for these folks. I feel very badly for them and their clients. But the clients need to address this with the people responsible --- those who didn't get the envelope in the mail in time.


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## Minimor

minimomNC said:


> For the amount of time it has taken to make the decision to not let these 165 horses show...


thing is, the only place it has taken so long to decide anything is here on LB! LOL. The actual decision to not allow the entries ( in accordance with the rules) was made very promptly.


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## RayVik

I do agree with you in part the point I was trying to make is the absolute application of no entries passed the deadline when some of those whom were late were not because of total intent to violate as would be the case of a post office error so to apply the rule as written without any application of logic or reasonable acceptance that there exist no extenuating circumstances by which some recourse exist does strike me as exceeding the bonds and principles of our society as I attempted to point out by my example.

If we are going to use the USPS as our defining standard the we must also accept any and all of its shortcomings and as such when proven to be their error then we must accept it as such I simply cannot understand or believe we would even considered otherwise

For gods sake we have degrees and even justification for crime from jaywalking to murder


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## Minimor

Honestly, here if you don't have a drivers license then you are not to drive. If you don't have a license because it is held up in the mail and you drive anyway and get stopped by a cop/-you are going to get charged with driving without a license. It isn't an excuse to say the mail is at fault--bottom line is you don't have your license in your possession and you should not be driving. This postmark by a certain date rule isn't so different from that.


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## Jean_B

Well, in the US - if you don't have your license on you - you do have a certain period of time in which to produce evidence of it (I believe it is 36 hours). Haven't you ever forgotten your wallet and thank goodness you didn't get pulled over???

But that is beside the point. Some (not all) of those being denied entry to the show are due to NO FAULT OF THEIR OWN. They DID get it to the Post Office on time. For PETE'S SAKE....there is EVIDENCE that they were there on time. This is what galls me. It's a knee jerk reaction and TOTALLY UNREALISTIC reaction to all the years where the rules weren't being enforced.

I'm trying hard not to make my response "personal" but sometimes I wonder....if someone's spine is so rigid....won't it snap in two if bent a little? Just sayin'.


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## Mona

It has been stated repeatedly here that there is evidence that it was at the post office on time. Just exactly what is that evidence? (not that it is going to matter, but I am curious to know) Also was the post office open at the time it was brought there, or maybe it had to wait until the next business day to be postmarked if brought after business hours at that location? Or was the postage date a postage meter that some people have at home or in their office, or an actual post office acceptance stamp date? All just things that have entered my mind and had me curious about, whhile reading through this long topic.


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## Minimor

Whatever Jean, this whole topic is so pointless, it is a do e deal, the decision has been made (and with legal counsel's opinion I would bet) and it doesn't really matter what any of us think. Some think it was right some think it was wrong, but now it comes down to it is what it is and someone can make up a rule change proposal and see if it can go through.

And speaking personally, no I have never forgotten my wallet. I also pay my credit card in good time because I know they won't care if it is my fault or the

Mail system that is at fault...if it is late it is late and I'll pay interest that I didn't need to pay. If I try to pay my bills by telephone banking at 9 pm and the system is down I am mad at myself for not paying it at 9 am instead so I could have called customer service while they were open. If I'm SOL at 9 pm it is really my fault, not the banks Telepay system's fault.


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## fortheloveofminis

Jean_B I completely agree with you, especially since there was evidence that some had actually turned their entries in on time! As to why people are so rigid about this topic is beyond me, this is not a government operation this is a sport that many try to get involved in for FUN. Also why not allow people to enter and pay for their entries and stalls online? Can't the registry figure out a system to allow online entries? Would not only make entering the show easier, but it would be an easier way for the registry to collect entry fees more effectively (more money!). You could then have the option to enter your classes at home or send them by mail. This is the largest horse show in the U.S., you would think they would not only have a grace period but have a more effective way to enter.


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## disneyhorse

I don't think everyone has all the facts, so we are arguing on speculation.

I thought this was about one trainer... One trainer has 165 horses on his show string with an entry fee of $50,000? Or 165 horse owners went to the same post office that was somehow "broken"?

There is information and gossip here. And people are polarizing into a "if you believe rules are rules, then you have no compassion for anyone whatsoever.". Geez.

How can we all be the jury on a case we aren't sitting on? In the end, the registry is making the decision based on all the facts.


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## RayVik

Not sure it's pointless to discuss. As I posted we must deal with this rule for 3 more years by our rule for rule change and this certainly establishes we are rigidly following rules without exception for now .... sort of a paradox it would seem

Holly was correct in another post and I so agree that changing this or any rule would or could effect other rules and that opens a whole new can of worms because if someone summits one rule change and another is in conflict or overlooked and it goes thru the process and passes we are stuck with the conflict for at least a year because we have now choosen to say a rule is a rule as written and thus to change a rule has its own set of rules

And as our bod has no reason and it seems unwilling at least in this case to vary from the standard of following rules as written without exception here were are

Of course if we are going to pick and choose which rules to apply as written then perhaps we should shift our focus to a rule for the picking and choosing of rules but then if we look we see we already have a rule that places that in the hands of our leadership and looking toward their threshold for invoking that power we see that thousands of $$$ and dozens of members and defacto standards of our society like post office error are not acceptable reasons for their establishing exception of a rule. Certainly they set the tone for following the principles of our organization ... Not in a good or bad way just an important understanding

In trying to find a positive in all this ....

I personally believe this issue is healthy for our organization as membership is a privilege and not a right. This topic has in many ways fostered a healthy debate which has brought forth the diversity of additudes that exist regarding how our organization functions. It has served to bring to the surface for examination philosophies and ideas that allows us to be as we are by their application. I believe it sometimes is a good thing to get such insight as it can redefine the direction and future of where we are going or remind us of where we have been and makes us who we are

Without question we all have and love our animals and seek to maximize our enjoyment of them unfortunately we as humans must have rules to help us along with that and as such rules sometimes seem to either allow someone to get the most OR no one gets more then the other.... At least when playing together

JMHO


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## mdegner

fortheloveofminis said:


> Jean_B I completely agree with you, especially since there was evidence that some had actually turned their entries in on time! As to why people are so rigid about this topic is beyond me, this is not a government operation this is a sport that many try to get involved in for FUN. Also why not allow people to enter and pay for their entries and stalls online? Can't the registry figure out a system to allow online entries? Would not only make entering the show easier, but it would be an easier way for the registry to collect entry fees more effectively (more money!). You could then have the option to enter your classes at home or send them by mail. This is the largest horse show in the U.S., you would think they would not only have a grace period but have a more effective way to enter.


I so agree with you. It drives me nuts that this organization--and AMHA for that matter--is still so paper-based, with the exception of the website and the on-line tracking of show records. And, with the show qualification forms, they just added more paper. A good RDBMS, a forms and workflow software and a user friendly front end for query would do the trick. I realize there is cost here but whats the cost of all that paper in terms of man-power entering the same data repeatedly, accuracy of data, etc. Our local club webmaster set up our show forms--and others that are submitted to her--so we can enter the data on line and then print them (thanks Kelly!!). Automated systems are not without their bugaboos--unplanned downtime,etc but they can be worked through and improved. Join the 21st century is my rally cry....JMHO


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## Jill

As far as I understand it, the situation has been resolved.

Is this year different? Every year people miss the deadline... I think the difference this year is that one or more of the people involved decided to take the plight to FaceBook after their late entries were returned...

Sure sounds like a good idea to take the steps neccessary to allow for a grace period and late fee going forward, but this year, I think, has been resolved in accordance with the long in place rules.

I agree that some have tried to poloarize this and would like to have us all beleive that those who feel "rules are rules" are not sorry for the people who will be unable to show their horses. I've not talked to anyone one on one who doesn't feel a lot of sympathy for those involved.

Additionally, there was a poll here on LB that closed once it seemed like the issue was resolved when it comes to the registry and the people with the late entries. It was about 2/3 who felt "NO" they should not be able to show.


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## maestoso

I am one who feels they should not be able to show. However, a poll on LB is not an accurate representation of how AMHR as a registry feels, just as the members and posters here are not(or even close to) an accurate representation of the members of AMHR. Several here are members, yes, but there are even more members and exhibitors in AMHR who do not post here. In addition, many people who responded to the poll are likely not even members and/or are not involved in showing. It's very much like the phone surveys for various services. Angry customers are much more likely to respond than satisfied ones, so the data is not credible. Polls here are fun for the people doing them, but it ends there. They, like everything else on this forum, should be taken with a grain of salt.


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## Jill

maestoso said:


> ... a poll on LB is not an accurate representation of how AMHR as a registry feels...


Well, again, from what I have heard, in the eyes of AMHR (which is what matters at the end of the day), this is a "done deal".

Below is a link to the (now closed) poll I referenced. It is an accurate measurement of how people here voted over a period of several days.

It seems to me a poll that concisely reflects the input of nearly 100 people is worth at least as much as a discussion thread that revolves around the repeated input of a handful of members.







http://www.miniature...howtopic=130295


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## RayVik

Jill

You are so correct but the unfortunate reality in far too many organizations and for that matter societies are governed by the decisions and or often times activism of a majority of a minority of its population by way of voting or not as the case may be

Again

JMHO


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## LaVern

This is a little off topic, and all in the past. A few years ago we had a National Slush Fund Account. I think it was around 60,000. Some very smart people were thinking ahead.


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## LindaL

Minimor said:


> Right in the Nationals premium book it notes that you can cancel your entry with a $50 penalty until August 15th. So not knowing if your horse is or isn't going to be at that perfect show stage isn't an excuse to wait until last minute to enter - up until August 15th you could have still backed out with a small penalty.
> 
> You know I feel sorry for the decision makers in this registry. For years everyone has wanted the rule book followed and now suddenly when we have a Board that is treating it as their bible we have everyone fussing that exceptions should be made for this, that or the other. We can't have it both ways.
> 
> Some things to think about: Next year if there is a penalty with another drop dead entry date what happens when someone has "intent" to mail on that final drop dead entry date and pay all the penalties but has something go wrong and it is postmarked late? Wouldn't that put the AMHR in the same pickle they were in this year? Logistically is it even possible to accept entries right up until the start of the show? Are the AMHR Committee and the members that vote at Convention going to be willing to remove the rule that requires every horse be listed in the show program? What about late entries for payback classes like the Amateur Incentives? What about Youth entries? What happens when Youth entries must be in by the deadline but the trainer decides to pay the price and mail after the deadline? Can all the paperwork be done for Youth High Point awards if the Youth aren't required to pre-enter? What about Futurity entries? Any proposal to change this rule is going to need to answer all these questions and probably many more.
> 
> The no late entry rule isn't a rule AMHR pulled out of thin air, it dates back 15 to 20 years and was put in place by the AMHR Committee. I'm sure they had many valid reasons for implementing it and I'm sure they have had valid reasons for not changing it. I'm also sure that if the rule remains the same that it will be a very, very long time before an entry comes in with a late postmark again.
> 
> I do think the root of the problem is that Show Management (NOT the AMHR) requires entries to go in together in order to be stalled together. I feel another system for allowing people to stall together needs to be found so that each individual entrant is responsible for their own entries and does not need to trust in someone else to get their entries postmarked in time.


100% agreed!


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## LindaL

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> Those who "win" will just never really know.....as proven here.....there are "long term memories" that just don't forget. 2012 will be remembered in the same way as 2008, as will the "wins".


I really do not think people should think in that way....the "what ifs"....Because, let's say "the horse to beat" got sick or injured right before Nationals and could not show....are you going to "what if" then too?? You can not think in those terms...when I go to a show, I go to show against the horses that ARE there...not horses that "should have but are not" there. Competition is the competition you have at that moment.

Not the same situation, but last year at Nationals, my horse was put into the WRONG class...and because it was a height class, he didn't place as well as I think he would have if he had been in the right height class....But, there is nothing I could do about it now, so I have to just let it go...It is what it is.

What if's are not how we should go about things...and definitely not a reason to let people "break the rules"....JMO


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## Jill

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> Those who "win" will just never really know.....as proven here.....there are "long term memories" that just don't forget. 2012 will be remembered in the same way as 2008, as will the "wins".


I hope those with horses who "win" this year know that they *WON*.

Really now... does the word win need sarcastic quotations for the 2012 AMHR National Show??? I do not like what I see afoot, and that is the attempted cheapening of this year's accomplishments before they have even occurreded.

It is a shame that everyone who planned to be there this year cannot be there to show their horses, but the time to have it all taken care of was gone as of July 26. Every single person who was negatively impacted because their entries arrived late can surely identify something they could have done to make sure the entries were received before the deadline. Now we can only move on and take steps (either personally or at the registry level) to be sure the situation doesn't happen to us in the future.

Personally, I would be as proud of any National win for a horse this year as I ever have been -- and that is very proud!


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## happy appy

Jill said:


> I hope those with horses who "win" this year know that they *WON*.


A statement like that seems to imply that all the good horses were the ones that didn't get in their entries on time. I don't think that's the case at all.


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## Jill

happy appy said:


> A statement like that seems to imply that all the good horses were the ones that didn't get in their entries on time. I don't think that's the case at all.


I do think that is what some others are trying to imply, and I also don't think it is at all the case. That was one of the points I hoped to make. There will be so many outstanding horses competing this year and it is something to be very proud of if you get a National ribbon


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## Mona

I totally agree with Linda L's last post. There is no room for the "what ifs", and just because horses were excused or couldn't make it for any number of reasons, it does not lessen nor cheapen anyone else's WIN!! You are showing against the class in the ring, nothing more, nothing less! Just like the judges judge only the horses put before them! It makes no difference if it is a local show or Nationals...it all goes through the process of getting to Nationals, so if you are going to "what if" over Nationals entries, then I guess it really needs to start at ground level, because I am sure there are plenty along the way, in each show that get DQ'd or couldn't make it or whatever, but we never hear nor complain about those in the smaller shows...why is that??

Just because people are choosing to follow the rules as written in the AMHR rulebook, does not mean they do not have compassion or empathy for the owners involved.


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## racingfan72104

Ok now this is going ot get me flamed but I don't care. Everyone is so worried about late entries. So now lets get down to the the real issue. The BOD has its favorites. I am dispering out my herd, due to the stupid rules of allowing shetlands in as minis. I bought several mares that had mini stallions as sires and shetland dams. but could not get papers on them due to the fact the dams were not registered as minis. With the hardshipping closing, I thought it best to get out of the minis. Tired of all the politics. If you don't fit in thier Cliche then whats the use of trying to better your farm name as well as your horses. I say Fine the people who are guilty and let them show PERIOD and then elect a BOD you can count on to actually promote the AMHR and not only the ASPC


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## Jill

Mona said:


> I totally agree with Linda L's last post. There is no room for the "what ifs", and just because horses were excused or couldn't make it for any number of reasons, it does not lessen nor cheapen anyone else's WIN!! You are showing against the class in the ring, nothing more, nothing less! Just like the judges judge only the horses put before them! It makes no difference if it is a local show or Nationals...it all goes through the process of getting to Nationals, so if you are going to "what if" over Nationals entries, then I guess it really needs to start at ground level, because I am sure there are plenty along the way, in each show that get DQ'd or couldn't make it or whatever, but we never hear nor complain about those in the smaller shows...why is that??
> 
> Just because people are choosing to follow the rules as written in the AMHR rulebook, does not mean they do not have compassion or empathy for the owners involved.


Right on, Mona


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## LindaL

racingfan72104 said:


> Ok now this is going ot get me flamed but I don't care. Everyone is so worried about late entries. So now lets get down to the the real issue. The BOD has its favorites. I am dispering out my herd, due to the stupid rules of allowing shetlands in as minis. I bought several mares that had mini stallions as sires and shetland dams. but could not get papers on them due to the fact the dams were not registered as minis. With the hardshipping closing, I thought it best to get out of the minis. Tired of all the politics. If you don't fit in thier Cliche then whats the use of trying to better your farm name as well as your horses. I say Fine the people who are guilty and let them show PERIOD and then elect a BOD you can count on to actually promote the AMHR and not only the ASPC


This is a totally different topic and probably needs to be an off-shoot, but I feel like I need to reply then shut up about this unless I plan to open a new thread on the subject.





Most of my horses are registered BOTH Mini and Shetland, but I prefer to show them as Miniature, so I personally am not "promoting" ASPC by doing this (altho I have NOTHING against Shetlands and the promotion of them)...I do not understand the whole "Mini not Shetland" thought process, since as far as I know the AMHR is STILL a height breed (always has been), so if my Shetlands are under 38"...hmmm....guess what? They are also Miniatures. Just sayin'


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## JMS Miniatures

racingfan72104 said:


> Ok now this is going ot get me flamed but I don't care. Everyone is so worried about late entries. So now lets get down to the the real issue. The BOD has its favorites. I am dispering out my herd, due to the stupid rules of allowing shetlands in as minis. I bought several mares that had mini stallions as sires and shetland dams. but could not get papers on them due to the fact the dams were not registered as minis. With the hardshipping closing, I thought it best to get out of the minis. Tired of all the politics. If you don't fit in thier Cliche then whats the use of trying to better your farm name as well as your horses. I say Fine the people who are guilty and let them show PERIOD and then elect a BOD you can count on to actually promote the AMHR and not only the ASPC


Agree this is totally off topic here and IMO has been spoken about to death. Everyone has different views on this and if someone wants to change it then don't rant about it change it. Send in a proposal and close hard shipping period.

Also agree with Jill we cannot let this be a dark cloud over the National show. It's been decided, time to move on, there isn't really any need to discuss it any further. I'm sure it will be at Convention. Now lets all just go out there and have fun with our horses and spend quality time with good friends, some we only see at Nationals, and if you get a ribbon fantastic, this should not let people think other wise. Those who do have a bad attitude period.


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## Minimor

Racingfan--If the ASPC mares are small enough they could be hardshipped AMHR and hardshipped this year at half price.  There is no indication that AMHR will be closing hardship to ASPC, AMHA or Falabellas at any time in the near future and grade hardship has been closed for many years.  Ignorance of the rules and crossing an ASPC only to an AMHR only or buying something ineligible for registraion is no excuse to attack the board.  That animals could also be registered NSPPR (formerly NSPR) with DNA from one parent.  As for the board having "favorites", some of the names I've heard tossed around in relation to the late entries are ones many people would most assuredly consider "favorites".  

This late entry issue has proven that our BOD is NOT playing favorites!


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## Jill

Minimor said:


> This late entry issue has proven that our BOD is NOT playing favorites!


Yes, exactly right!!!


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## LindaL

I agree that this subject has had its "say"...and we should drop it now and just concentrate on the upcoming show....It will be talked about at Convention I am sure.

So...2 weeks til I leave for NATIONALS! Sooo excited!


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