# Removing their whiskers



## maplegum (Dec 20, 2009)

I had my friend help me clip Willow for the shows we have been attending. I didn't remove her eyelashes as I can understand that they need them to protect their eyes.

We did remove her whiskers and my husband noticed this and commented on how cruel this was. He says that they would use their whiskers just like cats do.

Now I feel terrible! I didn't remove her eyelashes for that very reason.


----------



## disneyhorse (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm not sure that horses "need" their whiskers as much as cats do. I keep my horses clipped year round... bridlepath, beard, and whiskers... and they never seem to notice. I think once they get used to the "feeling" of not having the whiskers, they are just used to it.

I don't think it is "cruel"... it's just hair. I would guess most hair serves a purpose... but are human men deprived of anything without their mustaches?

Andrea


----------



## Marty (Dec 21, 2009)

Your husband is correct, the whiskars are horse's "feelers"

I'm guilty of that too for showing and even around the barn I like to keep my horses clipped up and looking their best, however in winter, I don't shave the whiskars off at all; they need them in my humble opinion in the cold temps; ice/snow etc.


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 21, 2009)

here in Europe it is totally forbiden, a quick DQ if you show up in the arena with clipped wiskers. Even when I showed in the US (california) I didnt clip the wiskers. They do need these feelers, its their guide for where NOT to stick their muzzle so it wont get stuck somewhere, remember they can not see directly in front of themselves.God made those wiskers for a purpose , keep them on , no matter what the "Holy Book" says IMO. (that would be the rule book)


----------



## JWC sr. (Dec 21, 2009)

Yes they do use them to feel with and yes in Europe it is forbidden. But here in the USA I have till yet see a horse of any breed that is really competitive enter the ring and not have the whiskers removed, except at wooly shows.





While I hate the shaving that goes on with mini's and I much prefer the clipping of the muzzle with a close surgical blade which gives almost the same appearance when blended properly. We have on occasion shaved the muzzles in order to be able to give the horses the best chance to compete.





As a general statement we humans have changed the entire life style and system of what a horse is and does in its life. (Herd animals, stalling, selctive breeding etc. etc. ) So I personally would not worry about it and move forward. I guess this is a to each his/her own type deal.


----------



## Margaret (Dec 21, 2009)

I also have noticed on my "_very young ones_" when it was warm enough to shave them down,... if I shaved off their whiskers,..they inevitably would bang up their face somehow afterwards..





It would always happen just before pictures....

So I leave them on as their protection now.


----------



## minimomNC (Dec 21, 2009)

I dont know what most people do, but we do clip whiskers and shave muzzles but I don't usually have anything in with my horses that they would need to make sure it was big enough for their muzzle. Unlike cats, my horses don't wander and get into things they shouldn't. I keep my pastures cleaned up and all of their buckets and feeders are big enough for a couple of muzzles at the same time. Its not the end of the world that you clipped them off, the one true thing about most hair, it grows back. Now with show season over, everyone is a hairy mess, whiskers and all. But mine will never go in a show ring with whiskers.


----------



## michele80906 (Dec 21, 2009)

I guess I have just been plain mean all my life then



. I have shaved horse's whiskers off and kept their faces clean winter and summer. Never seemed to be a problem. I live in Colorado...lots of cold winters and they grazed in pastures their whole lives without incidence. Michele


----------



## wildoak (Dec 21, 2009)

Yep, guilty here too.



We've done a lot of things to change our horses' environment - show horses these days don't live on the prairie foraging for themselves, I think the loss of whiskers probably isn't going to put them at risk. I don't shave much of anything in the winter though, other than bridle paths and sometimes the "goat" hairs under their chins but show horses in this country - minis or otherwise - are shown clipped. Razoring is another conversation LOL, not all breeds do that.

Jan


----------



## Zora (Dec 21, 2009)

krissy3 said:


> here in Europe it is totally forbiden, a quick DQ if you show up in the arena with clipped wiskers. Even when I showed in the US (california) I didnt clip the wiskers. They do need these feelers, its their guide for where NOT to stick their muzzle so it wont get stuck somewhere, remember they can not see directly in front of themselves.God made those wiskers for a purpose , keep them on , no matter what the "Holy Book" says IMO. (that would be the rule book)


That is so neat!!! It does say that miniature horses should be shown as natural as possible, so it makes sense not to clip the whiskers.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Dec 21, 2009)

I have yet to have a horse injure itself for lack of it's whiskers and I surely do not consider it cruel in any way. The great thing about clipping or cutting any form of hair is it grows back and in the case of whiskers grows back pretty darn quickly as well


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 21, 2009)

Zora said:


> krissy3 said:
> 
> 
> > here in Europe it is totally forbiden, a quick DQ if you show up in the arena with clipped wiskers. Even when I showed in the US (california) I didnt clip the wiskers. They do need these feelers, its their guide for where NOT to stick their muzzle so it wont get stuck somewhere, remember they can not see directly in front of themselves.God made those wiskers for a purpose , keep them on , no matter what the "Holy Book" says IMO. (that would be the rule book)
> ...



hey thanks... I was relieved to know it was forbiden...I think its very cruel to shave the muzzle, eyelashes and wiskers. extream showing to win tends to be for the human and not with consederation for whats best for the horse. Id rather take 2nd or third and allow my horse to live a stress free , natural life .. but I am not into it for money, just the love of horses at their natural state.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Dec 21, 2009)

It is not about being extreme to win or for money.. i have known many a vet who clipped whiskers which are different then eyelashes I have not known anyone who made money off of whisker clippings





I have yet to see or hear any amount of scientific reasoning to show that it is extremely dangerous to clip a horses muzzle. Heck we have leg/armpit hair for a reason I am sure and I have yet to hear of a woman whose cause of death was shaving her armpits and legs.

In some cultures they do not shave and live equally as fine. It is about choice not about cruelty when discussing muzzle clipping


----------



## RhineStone (Dec 21, 2009)

We trim eye whiskers (not eyelashes) year round on our driving horses, as the whiskers bumping on the blinders/blinkers/winkers (whatever you wish to call them, all are correct) are irritating to the horse, like an extra long eyelash bumping your eyeglasses.


----------



## Relic (Dec 21, 2009)

We clip them all the time they grow in real fast within the week you'd never know they were clipped no one has died yet without them l know of....l plugged some nose hairs on myself for Christmas so no one has to look at them at the table....now thats cruel no nose hairs to ice up and keep hay dust out


----------



## txminipinto (Dec 21, 2009)

Comparing cat whiskers to horse whiskers is a little bit of a jump. Clipping horse whiskers is not painful to them nor does it affect their balance. HOWEVER, clipping a cat's whiskers IS painful and DOES affect their balance.


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Dec 21, 2009)

Husbands can sure lay the guilt on you!

Mine thinks I am cruel to clip my horses in the spring. Even though they are uncomfortable with the warm weather before they shed out naturally. I blanket them on cool days/evenings, but he has laid plenty of guilt on me for clipping.

I hope he never notices they are missing whiskers or I'm in big trouble!


----------



## ohmt (Dec 21, 2009)

Your horse will 100% ok without its whiskers, I promise!

Once during a show, there was a handler that asked a judge what he could do to improve his placings (this was for halter) and the first thing the judge told him was to make sure all of the horses whiskers on the face were shaved. I feel it was a bit over the top to a lose a placing over something like that-a good horse is a good horse-BUT its something I've always remembered and I'll make sure I have those whiskers clipped if I ever get the time to show!


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 22, 2009)

Lisa clipping or no clipping of facial horse hair does not make money. If it did, we could all make a little extra money. Some of us go to extream measures to win .... the things people do in order to win is sometimes not in the best interest of the horse.I will give you some examples of things that I have seen . These things ,in my oppinion is not in the best interest for the horse , as it is uncomfortable , irritating ,annoying and sometimes painful to the horse.

1. sweats neck ,belly wont kill them, but I think the horse would rather NOT be forced to work up a sweat on a hot day to have a thinner neck ...this is "for the owner not the horse"

2. How about those blankets left on day and night so the sun wont shine on them

3. not letting the horse have a turnout during the day to avoid sun bleaching...thats real nice ...my horses love a sun bath , I will never deprive my horses of a sun bath

4. not giving hay to avoid a "hay belly" sorry guys , I need you to be thin so you have to eat hard food.

5. trimming the hooves too short so they will fit into a height class (ouch) (ouch)

6. using a pin at the end of a measuring stick so the horse will arch its back to avoid pain and measure shorter. (another ouch)

7. using weights hooked to the mane to force the mane hair to the other side to hide a crest on the neck. irritating...you know how it feels to wear a heavy barrett in your hair all day , now hook a weight to it and leave it in for 2 months

8.Using a stud chain on a 31 inch refined mare to get its attention for the showmanship pose ( or halter class) yes I see this too

9.Tieing a horse to its pen at a show all day long so it cant roll and get dirty, give the horse a break

same goes for making the horse sleep in a trailer with deviders...cant sleep laying down or take a load off its feet

10. keeping a slinky on a horse all day long in hot weather so it wont get dirty (god forbid)

these are just a few things i see all in the name of "presentation" all of this is done for the owner NOT the horse

, I am bringing this to everyones attention for the horse , as he she can not speak for him -herself. I have witnessed all of this more than once , all of these things are done on a regular basis. If you tell me this is not true you are burring your head far into the ground.If you think your horse enjoys any of this you are mistaken , and have very little empathy. These things will not kill your horse , wont even cause a lot of harm, just irritation mentally and physically , the excessive trimming however will cause pain and damage. For those of you that thought that I was not sympathetic towards horses because I said they reacted to pain differently than humans, (and its important not to mask pain with bute , banamine before a vet is called ) , I am a lot more sympathetic and empathetic then you think. I clip my horse for shows, she tolerates it , but would rather not. I do it for me , not the horse, the horse gets nothing from it. I am guilty of putting my horse through stupid things too. I also blanket my horses in -10 c weather they dont need it , but it makes me feel better. I would like people to just admit that the things we put our horses through are completely for ourselves, so please try to limit the behavior to what is completely nessessary.


----------



## Reble (Dec 22, 2009)

I also clip for showing but did find

the reason for Whiskers if interested :

Whiskers are not just present for the heck of it – they also serve a purpose! Like a cat's whiskers, horse whiskers are particularly sensitive to touch, so horses use them to help detect dangers or obstructions that their eyes might miss.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Dec 22, 2009)

Krissy obvioulsy you are against showing for your own reasons. I can tell you as someone who has shown for over 15 years been to Nationals severel times and oh lets not forget my hunter jumper experience with big horses showing since I was a kid...

I do not see everyone doing this extreme things nor do I think sweats, and clipping are extreme- feeding programs are everyones choice these horses look healthy and are at the top of their game or they would not be performing at their best.

if you choose not to do these things that is your choice please stop acting like you are speaking for the poor abused show horses who are miserable and unhappy. Trust me if these horses were not happy not just minis but any breed they would not be winning whiskers or not- a true show horse has to love what they are doing - please quit implying that every show horse is abused and lives a pathetic life and needs Krissy to stand up and be their voice. It is simply not reality.

I realize you want to believe this and have some need to believe this. Please go tell all the olympic horses and riders they are abused and miserable-- they have no whiskers and are clipped and are kept in stalls OMG the whole world has no empathy. Give me a break.... again any horse person will tell you a horse at the top of its game loves its job

I get that you want to and need to believe this is all horrible and cruel but many do not agree with you that does not make them horrible abusve horse owners it makes them simply people with different beliefs then you no more - no less.


----------



## Sandee (Dec 22, 2009)

Oh yeah, my fussy hyper mare that hates to be bothered in her stall loves the attention she gets when out in public. And as for clipping, she might fuss (only a little as she gets older) when her legs are being done but her favorite time is face clipping and always has been. She closes her eyes and nearly falls asleep. She loves the attention.

My stallion thinks that the clipping is his personal attention time too. He relaxes to point of his privates dropping about a foot. Sometimes it's embarassing




- so we try to do most clipping at home!


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 22, 2009)

If you are the one depriving your horse of a natural life you will NEVER agree with me. I show my horses, so I am not against showing. I am against unnessessary ,extream, training, and horsekeeping so that you can have a "winner". I am not here to "save " all the animals , just to bring some light into the dark corners of showing. I hate things swept under the rug so there are no guilty feelings. A lot of race horses are given to auctions after their carrier is over at a whopping 4 or 5 years old, from here they are sold to slaughter, or are so banged up they cant be ridden. I watched a 2 year old break its leg on the track ...do you know why??? It was only 2, legs were not strong enough for the training it endured, track was crapy etc etc, but hey some horse had to win , and someone made a lot of money that day, someone also had to shoot their horse that first ran around the track 2 times with its leg whipping around like a windmil. I am willing to bet that was painful for the horse.... I dont think Race Horses LOVE their job of racing. My QH has a racing tattoo on her upper lip... , she certainly is not aching to run laps, even though she has 50 acres to run in in California. So I dont believe all horses LOVE their Drassage Jumping ,racing training, some are simply more tolorant then others. But if you have a crop on their hind end is there much choice? Sure you can make your horse do these things with love and fairness....but your kidding yourself if you think its for the horse and not you, they would rather be out in the field with the others.Get real!!!!


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Dec 22, 2009)

Ok Krissy you are right my horses are deprived of natural living. Peta would not be pleased either. they have warm stalls at night, are not left in a field 24.7 in all kinds of weather, are vaccinated, fed twice a day- do not have to be out in extreme weather of any sort. Wear halters, get there feet trimmed- show, trailer get baths-and everything else that is not natural.

they are miserable beasts living a horrid life- one I feel extremley guilty about...

NOT LOL






I intend to go have a wonderful day with my horses.. lol hope you do the same


----------



## txminipinto (Dec 22, 2009)

Krissy,

You aren't shining any unknown light into the "dark corners" of showing. I think we all agree that our horses love to be turned out and enjoy the company of others. There isn't a trainer who would disagree with you. I will disgree that all horses PREFER to be turned out. I have several who want to be in their stalls, who get excited when they see the trailer pull up, who KNOW when we're going to a show rather than the vet, who LOVE to set up and show. These horses have JOBS and they know their job and enjoy it. I won't show a horse that doesn't enjoy the show ring. I've sent many home that just don't have it. Show horses are PAMPERED. Yes, they have to endure some not so nice sides of the show ring, like neck sweating. But if that's their biggest complaint they still have a pretty posh life.

I think its great you realize and respect what a NATURAL life is for a horse. But horses are bred for our enjoyment and are shown for our enjoyment. And frankly, I don't enjoy losing. Will I go to extremes to win such a soreing, tatooing, ear cropping, etc a horse to win? No. Will I stall them, fit them to their best ability, smear the latest goop on their face to make them stand out when I walk in the ring? Yes. Will I use a stud chain on a mare in a showmanship class? Yes. Because it's no different than using a bit in their mouth. Whips? Just like a bit or stud chain is an aid. Yes, it can be misused. But it's also an effective aid to get a desired behavior.

I respect your opinion. However, I don't agree that I can show a horse successfully at the local level in halter much less to the national level with your methods. My job as a trainer, as well as those who want to show to the national level, is to show the horse to the best of its ability...."natural" isn't a term used in that definition. But this doesn't make those of us who CHOOSE to show to this level inhumane or abusive any more than we may think it's abusive or inhumane of you to not stall your horses. Some people think dogs should be inside in the comforts of home, some people think all dogs should be outside and are lucky if they have a dog house. Either way is acceptable depending on your beliefs.


----------



## crponies (Dec 22, 2009)

Perhaps we should all start to feel sorry for ourselves too. I am being deprived of natural living also after all. I live in a culture where women are expected to shave their legs and underarms so I do. I live in a house with central heating and air also; now that is just not natural! In the summer I am deprived of heat while I am inside and now in the winter I do not get to feel so much cold while indoors.

The facts are that many things that humans and animals that belong to them encounter every day are just not "natural." That does not necessarily mean they are unhealthy or that we and the animals are not happy.

That said, my ponies do have their whiskers. I am not against clipping them off; I simply don't have a reason to do so at this point.


----------



## txminipinto (Dec 22, 2009)

That's right...shaving legs is torture....hate it. but I do it to keep my husband happy and to keep from getting strange looks in public.


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 22, 2009)

LISA...my horses are in a stall right now. YEP... they go in when its snowing , and -15c. You are being ........!!!





What i listed are the things i dont like to see in the treatment of horses. I dont like to see a horse tied with 10 inches of rope all day long at a show , then stuck into a trailer at night....with a halter and tied in the trailer too. DOES ANYONE HERE THINK THIS IS OK FOR THE HORSE??? I DONT LIKE TO SEE PEOPLE TRIM THE HORSES HOOVES AT A SHOW SO SHORT THAT THEY LIMP UP TO THE MEASUREMENT AREA...DO YOU? I cant believe you think this is OK



do you people really think its OK to not give your horse hay so it doesnt get a hay belly? Please fess up if you think this is ok other than Lisa, I know she thinks its not inhumane.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Dec 22, 2009)

Krissy I refuse to play your games anymore -I get you want and need the attention of being the horse saver. I get you feel I am ahorrible horse owner with unsocialized horses who will end up on the slaughter trucks you have said it many times before I have heard it all thanks



... if you wish to continue this further please take it to PM...

to everyone else I apologize....

MERRY CHRISTMAS


----------



## minimomNC (Dec 22, 2009)

I guess I am one of the horrible horse owners like Lisa. My horses don't want you messing with the deal they got going on. They have 12 x 12 stalls thickly bedded with shavings, they are fed three times a day, during show season they don't get all the hay they can eat, they get a handful but they also get 4 cups of soaked beet pulp twice a day too. They don't want to be out in the pasture in the middle of an August summer day, the flies alone drive them crazy, they love their big stalls with fans for comfort and enjoy being outside at night when the bugs go to bed. We work our horses from Feb until the World Show in Oct, every other day for 20 minutes, sometimes when there is extra time between shows they might not work more than two days a week, they do stand tied for about an hour to cool off. They never wear slinkys or blankets at home unless we have just come home from a show and its cold. We only go to 4 shows a year as a rule, so they have plenty of time to relax between shows. They are not over weight, they do not have fat necks (I don't buy bloodlines that produce fat necks) they are friendly with most everyone and while at a show the only time they wear blankets is if its cool or the night before they show after a bath, they are never tied so they can't lay down and they always have full buckets of water.

I don't know where you have seen all of these things at shows, but those people probable wouldn't win at the larger shows, a horse will not show as well when treated like that. Most of the trainers I know would never treat their horses like that either, they know its not good for them. So I have no idea where you are basing all of your cruelty experiences from, but it isn't being done by the people I know and show with and I sure don't do it.

As for doing all of this for money, please, I have lost a whole lot more than I have ever gained with miniature horses. We do this on our own, we can't afford trainers but we love to show and yes we love to win, my opinion is why show if you don't want to win. We might not all the time but we don't go to a show with the hopes of losing. I won my first World title this year, heck yea I am thrilled, is my horse abused because I took him to a show, yea right, he doesnt think so either.

I understand your opinion is yours to have, thats fine, but your facts are way off when it comes to most people that show. We love our horses and would do anything to make sure they are healthy and happy.


----------



## Vertical Limit (Dec 22, 2009)

txminipinto said:


> That's right...shaving legs is torture....hate it. but I do it to keep my husband happy and to keep from getting strange looks in public.


Carin I just shaved.......on my way to the ER!



Oy!

Sometimes you just can't waste the movement of your fingers anymore and you have to let things go. I feel like I am reading one of those razoring threads on the Forum 10 years ago. Sorry..........I'm BAD!





BTW....I'll join the inhumane, horrible abusive, unnatural group......


----------



## wpsellwood (Dec 22, 2009)

Im laughing about the leg shaving cuz I thought the same thing about some countries dont shave human legs and some do, some shave horses muzzles some do. Ha ha.

I join the inhumane group, I trained racehorses for over 20 yrs.


----------



## maplegum (Dec 22, 2009)

I have to agree with Krissy on lots of her points.

That's why I am trying to make a difference in the show ring.

I refused to clip off half of Willow's mane just to make her neck look thinner and longer, or whatever that is supposed to do. If the judge wants to see her neck, look at the other side!

No way am I removing her eyebrows and hairs around her eyes. Her muzzle hairs were removed in error and it won't happen again.

I do not apply that horrid plastic looking goopy stuff to her beautiful face, she is gorgeous the way she is.

I did however clip her out. She had 'almost' lost all of her winter coat anyway so just did a tidy up.

And guess what? Willow has come home with two 1st place ribbons!

And most of you would curl your toes if you knew what little effort I put into taking Bailey into the show ring. He still had his winter fluff, no clipping, no makeup, NOTHING! He placed 2nd!!!

Now I don't have a anything to loose here, that is the difference. i don't have a farm to promote, it's just me and my 2 horses. If I don't win, too bad. I just go along for the fun. And that's how it should be. Fun. Our horses are so tolerant and forgiving.


----------



## RhineStone (Dec 22, 2009)

Wow! What's with all the defensiveness? Did Krissy hit a nerve?





We don't show breed shows for some of the same reasons that Krissy listed. That has nothing to do with any one person on this forum, so you all don't need to get all stressed out and head to the ER because you shaved your legs!





We body clip our show horses, but only with a #10 blade, which I have heard is WAY too long for a mini show! I don't want to have to be concerned about sunburn when I turn my horses out 23/7. They are brought in to be trained/exercised so I don't have to use a sweat or "starve" them for good condition.

My mother bought a mini halter mare that was fed handfuls of hay at a time during the day so that she did not get a hay belly. She was a crabby mare who wanted to bite all the time because she was hungry, but she looked good!



Mom bought her for a driving horse. The mare still acts defensive with her hay, just like a neglected Arab we "purchased" a number of years ago just to get her out of that situation. Now, I am not saying that all breed show halter people starve their animals, but this is a good example of it happening. Was she actually starving? No, but she felt that way, and still does. I think these examples are what Krissy is referring to. I know of other people who had TREMENDOUS success in the mini Nationals ring that decided to quit because of the "starving horse" trend. That was about 12 years ago.

Yes, we have stalls for our horses when it is icky in our cold state, but if it is nice, they want to be outside. It is healthy for them. We do clip the whiskers on our show horses. It tells some judges that we care about their opinion. It is the only time we bother clipping whiskers, other than the eye whiskers for the driving bridle blinders, which I have referred to before. Clipping eyelashes is cruel, and just to make the horse's eyes look bigger. Yes, I know the Arabian people do it, too. That's probably where the mini people got the idea. I wish it would stop. I wish that judges would stop it.

I know of highly respected driving judges who advocate that even fetlocks not be trimmed if the horse is usually a pasture horse, to protect from flies. That is what I enjoy most about the carriage driving world, the people are generally practical and concerned for the horse's well-being, understanding that a comfortable horse is a well-performing horse. Some of the antics that are "expected" in the breed ring would be chastised in the carriage ring by a good judge. There are no exhibitors "fighting" for ring position by interferring with another's horse either with whip or voice. All the horses still have their eyelashes intact. Exhibitors don't "bounce around the center of the ring" trying to attract the judge's attention. They get on the rail where the judge can see them. For being such an "unnatural" discipline for the horse, carriage driving is the most accepting discipline I have seen for the horse. The horse is shown to the best of IT'S ability, not forced into an "ideal" created by money-driven humans. And the people are nice, too!


----------



## minimomNC (Dec 22, 2009)

Why does everyone think we starve show horses, my yearling stallion eats pretty darn good. He gets 2 - 3 cups of soaked beet pulp with 2 cups of Omelene 200 and a cup of oats TWICE a day, he is only 30" but he gets plenty to eat. Right now for winter, he gets a flake of hay a day split into two feedings and 4 cups of Omelene 200 twice a day. And except for the World Show, we clip with a 10 or 15 for every other show. We do clip faces, we do razor them and we do attend to their needs until it grows back, just another reason they are not thrown outside in the hot sun. I want them to be competitive at a show and I want them to be comfortable when they come home. I love my horses but I sure didn't spend all of this money to take a hairy, fat, unkept horse to the World Show.

This didn't hit a nerve because I feel like I am doing anything to harm my horses, its hits a nerve because of someone lumping every person who shows horses into a group and calling everything they do cruel.  And assumes we all do it only for money. Until you pay my bills, clean my stalls and feed my horses, don't assume you know how my horses are treated. Or if they are happy or not.


----------



## Leeana (Dec 23, 2009)

Its a normal practice, atleast here in the united states anyway. Apart from the mares and horses just standing around not doing much, when I clip I take off all of the facial hair and whiskers. I do not clip off the short lashes, but do take off the long eye lashes where there are normally one or two below or above the eye. These are horses, not cats ...


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Thanks guys





dont know how the topic ended up about shaving legs..(human)

If I lived in a stall , and happily spent most of my time outside I would want to keep my leg hair. If I still lived in a cave like my ancesters did...I wouldnt shave my legs. You know what ...just to proove my point , I WILL NOT SHAVE MY LEGS THIS ENTIRE SEASON at the end of the season I will send anyone who wants to see my hairy legs a photo.


----------



## susanne (Dec 23, 2009)

We all need to differentiate between things that are cruel and things that we simply don't like.

There are certainly grooming practices that I choose not to do, but that's my choice. I hate the LOOK of shaved muzzles and eyebrows, but I don't believe it's necessarily cruel, providing people take care against sunburn or irritation.

I clip whiskers before a show, but not the rest of the times. I think about the worst thing that's going to happen is that they can't test the hotwire, but hey -- that may be good.

There are some truly nasty practices in the show world and these should be denounced, but by lumping things you merely prefer not to do in with actual abuse, you blur the line by crying wolf.


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 23, 2009)

Merly stating that there is a difference between what we do to our horses for *ourselves* at the expence emotionally and physically of our horses.

*Emotionaly being:*

any training practice that makes horses scared of humans, cower when they see a whip, shake when you try to train them, rear, bite.In my oppinion these traits are expressed by the horse because of bad handeling. If your horse does not do this , then you or the person that had your horse before has handled your horse correctly or "humainly

*Physicaly*

anything physicaly dangerious to the horse. depriving a horse of natural sunlight, stalling a horse more then 15 hours a day on a regular basis ON A REGULAR BASIS , not when weather is bad , or healing from injury, or if you simply dont have the turnout space.those are the exceptions

trimming hooves to fit into a class, weights on mane to get rid of fatty neck .

Maplegum....SOOOOO cool that you placed so well with your horse .



There is something I think your horse had that the others didnt that day ...An inner glow , that doesnt come from a bottle


----------



## mydaddysjag (Dec 23, 2009)

Add me to the list of cruel horse owners. I clip muzzles for show season. Heck, I sometimes even Razor. In the winter I cut the wiskers with scissors so they are about 3/4" long or so. A few years ago My mare had ice on her wiskers from drinking from her bucket. In order to get a drink with her super long hairs, she had to completely submerge about 3" of wiskers in her bucket. She then had a chin full of ice all day, and im sure it was heavy and pulled on her, causing discomfort. I leave enough there for protection, but not so much that she has a 1/2 lb of icicles hanging from her face.

My horses are turned out at night in the summer due to extreme heat and flys, not at all because I dont want them to fade. Would you want to be stuck outside in the sun in 90 degree weather with the flys bothering you? I sure wouldnt. They are taken out to be hosed in extreme heat, and put in their stalls to drip dry with a fan.

In winter they go out for a bit in the afternoon, because thats when it is the warmest.


----------



## maplegum (Dec 23, 2009)

I guess not much will change in the show ring until people 'want' it to change. If more and more people began to show their horses in a more natural state, rather than looking like a plastic toy, things might change. We all believe our animals are naturally beautifully, so why are we not promoting that????? Instead, these forgiving horses are put through crap. Just because WE want a ribbon! I have only had a small amount to do with the show scene and I am appalled at the practices that take part. All of the things that Krissy mentioned, also upset me.

Krissy is not stating that you starve your horses, she is not pointing the finger at anyone in particular. She, just like me, is stating that there are some unnecessary practices that go on, and it's not acceptable.

I am 'trying' to make a stance in the show ring by showing my horses more naturally and guess what? I'm winning ribbons against people who have their horses made to look like plastic toys! And the steps these people go to to make their horses look like that really really upset me.

I'd like to see a change, but I am only one person making a stance.


----------



## maplegum (Dec 23, 2009)

mydaddysjag said:


> Add me to the list of cruel horse owners. I clip muzzles for show season. Heck, I sometimes even Razor. In the winter I cut the wiskers with scissors so they are about 3/4" long or so. A few years ago My mare had ice on her wiskers from drinking from her bucket. In order to get a drink with her super long hairs, she had to completely submerge about 3" of wiskers in her bucket. She then had a chin full of ice all day, and im sure it was heavy and pulled on her, causing discomfort. I leave enough there for protection, but not so much that she has a 1/2 lb of icicles hanging from her face.
> My horses are turned out at night in the summer due to extreme heat and flys, not at all because I dont want them to fade. Would you want to be stuck outside in the sun in 90 degree weather with the flys bothering you? I sure wouldnt. They are taken out to be hosed in extreme heat, and put in their stalls to drip dry with a fan.
> 
> In winter they go out for a bit in the afternoon, because thats when it is the warmest.


No, see...I DON'T add what you are doing to the list of cruel owners. You are looking out for your horses best interests by making them more comfortable. I don't agree with the razoring of the muzzle, but it if stops at that, I can live with that.

i think people are missing the point here. I'm trying to say that there are people who lock their horses away for a good part of the day for THEIR own benefit, to win ribbons, not to make the horse more comfortable.


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 23, 2009)

I agree "mydaddysjag"(is that right? what you have done is think about whyt your horse is feeling, then you have done what you could to make that horse feel better. I think thats awsome! yea , if my black horse was stuck outside in 90 degree temps or more I would do exactly what you do. and the ice on the wiskers, the other day my gelding had ice on his wiskers... I will look more carefully at him today and if its causeing more discomfort FOR HIM , I will trim them if it makes him feel better. I didnt think of that , so thanks for bringing that to my attention , and thanks maplegum for clarifying things for the readers. Your words come out better than mine.


----------



## HGFarm (Dec 23, 2009)

I only clip my horses noses when it's show time, and yes, they do use their whiskers as 'feelers' just like cats. Watch them try to eat from a tub or feeder after you have clipped them off- they will bang their face on the feeder because they are used to those whiskers being there to help keep them from whacking their nose on stuff. I only clip to show. I dont think it's mean, but horses do use those for a reason.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Dec 23, 2009)

mydaddysjag said:


> Add me to the list of cruel horse owners. I clip muzzles for show season. Heck, I sometimes even Razor. In the winter I cut the wiskers with scissors so they are about 3/4" long or so. A few years ago My mare had ice on her wiskers from drinking from her bucket. In order to get a drink with her super long hairs, she had to completely submerge about 3" of wiskers in her bucket. She then had a chin full of ice all day, and im sure it was heavy and pulled on her, causing discomfort. I leave enough there for protection, but not so much that she has a 1/2 lb of icicles hanging from her face.


you know I am not sure why I never thought of that but honestly I didnt and will be trimming some whiskers today that is great thinking


----------



## Humhill (Dec 24, 2009)

When you really think about it, show horses are really well taken care of. They get a balanced diet, exercise, shelter, fresh water, grooming, vaccinations, medical care, "pedicures," and for most, a job that they love. Things they wouldn't necessarily get in the wild. I think trimming whiskers, body clipping, and shaving are pretty minor things to worry about. Go look on Craigslist. Ride around the "neighborhood" for a while. Look at all the horses living in filth with dirty water, worms, no or minimal feed, "elf" toes, probably never had a vaccination in their life. Then come to my house and tell me that my show horses aren't happy when they come to you in the pasture and trot happily into their stalls for their dinner, love to be groomed and pampered. It doesn't do you any good for your show horse to be unsafe, unhealthy, or unhappy. They're not gonna show.

Worry about a problem bigger than rather or not people clip whiskers off their show horses or shave them. Or if they use sweats (I'm embarrassed to admit I've seriously considered strapping one around my own stomach), body clip, goop on the faces.

Disclaimer - I am NOT saying that ALL horses on Craigslist or int he "neighborhood" are abused or in bad situations. But I've seen plenty on there.

PS- You can't tell me that it doesn't hurt when I get my eyebrows waxed and plucked or that my clothes and make-up I have to wear for work are comfortable. But, I do all that so I can keep my job so that I can pay for my horses to be happy and well taken care of.


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 24, 2009)

Humhill said:


> When you really think about it, show horses are really well taken care of. They get a balanced diet, exercise, shelter, fresh water, grooming, vaccinations, medical care, "pedicures," and for most, a job that they love. Things they wouldn't necessarily get in the wild. I think trimming whiskers, body clipping, and shaving are pretty minor things to worry about. Go look on Craigslist. Ride around the "neighborhood" for a while. Look at all the horses living in filth with dirty water, worms, no or minimal feed, "elf" toes, probably never had a vaccination in their life. Then come to my house and tell me that my show horses aren't happy when they come to you in the pasture and trot happily into their stalls for their dinner, love to be groomed and pampered. It doesn't do you any good for your show horse to be unsafe, unhealthy, or unhappy. They're not gonna show. Worry about a problem bigger than rather or not people clip whiskers off their show horses or shave them. Or if they use sweats (I'm embarrassed to admit I've seriously considered strapping one around my own stomach), body clip, goop on the faces.
> 
> Disclaimer - I am NOT saying that ALL horses on Craigslist or int he "neighborhood" are abused or in bad situations. But I've seen plenty on there.
> 
> PS- You can't tell me that it doesn't hurt when I get my eyebrows waxed and plucked or that my clothes and make-up I have to wear for work are comfortable. But, I do all that so I can keep my job so that I can pay for my horses to be happy and well taken care of.


We are not talking about basic horse care...all listed above are the basic care every horse kept in captivity deserves. wild horses keep their hooves trimmed , and usually take care of themselves provided they have enough space, they have been doing it for years. We decided to keep them in confined areas , some a lot bigger than other spaces, we have taken away all the land for grazing , so we have to feed them . those that have horses and dont take care of them are worthless humans , and should have the horses taken away. The rest of us with 1/2 a brain should be giving the basic care to our horses without a pat on the back...its the least we could do for them. This topic addresses something entirly different . If I want you to be a size 2 because I think you will look prettier in a suit, I will wrap you in latex, run you in circles , and squeeze you into a small suit , maybe even give you 2 handfuls of popcorn a day , and a handful of laxatives and vitamins so you will be thin. Thats what were talking about.


----------



## JWC sr. (Dec 24, 2009)

You know in reading this series of posts I find it very funny and somewhat interesting the extremes that some have gone to merely to make a point.





There are a lot of things that we as horse owners should get on a band wagon about such as use of steroids, electrical shock treatments, doping in general, intentional breeding of dwarfs etc etc. As versus something as mundane and rudimentary as clipping of facial hair.





To each his own in my opinion. We will continue to present our horses in whatever manner we personally feel is in the best interest of giving them having every opportunity to excel in whatever portion of the equine world they are living in as long as it is not harmful or physically abusive.





If that means clipping a few hairs, working them daily in a round pen or adjusting diets to individually produce the best results for their personal metabolic rates, then so be it.





These are in fact animals and even though we may love them, they are still animals. Heck in some cultures they eat them. Europe is one of the main users of horse meat. Here in the USA we eat cattle, hogs and chickens as versus horse meat. While in the Hindu religion in places like India they don't partake of any of them. I personally choose not to have anything to do with horses as a main course, but I am not going to judge people that do. Cause if they start messing around with my rib eye steaks, there is going to be a war here in Texas. LOL





Our animals deserve to be treated with respect and dignity in whatever avenue they find themselves in. Be that a breeding farm, private pet setting or the show ring. As long as we adhere to that general principal, everyone including the animals come out winners.





So with that and 1.25 you can go get a cup of coffee. Heck come to think of it, I will even buy!!!


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Dec 24, 2009)

JWC sr. said:


> To each his own in my opinion. We will continue to present our horses in whatever manner we personally feel is in the best interest of giving them having every opportunity to excel in whatever portion of the equine world they are living in as long as it is not harmful or physically abusive.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Make that a hot chocolate or diet coke and I will take you up on it.


----------



## minimomNC (Dec 24, 2009)

I second the hot chocolate but I have to have a real coke LOL.


----------



## JWC sr. (Dec 24, 2009)

Merry Christmas everyone and if you are down this way, cokes, hot chocolate and rib eyes are on the house.


----------



## KanoasDestiny (Dec 24, 2009)

I'm not for or against showing as I've never been to a show, nor do I have any interest in showing. I have heard countless horror stories about what "some" horses have to go through though. While I LOVE the look of a show horse, I wonder why it is so necessary to do some of the stuff to them. If a horse truly has a wonderful neck, body, or gait (or wonderful conformation), why do people have to enhance it by using sweats or weights? I would think that if you were looking for a horse to use for breeding, you'd look at "unaltered" horses, rather than ones that have had cosmetic altering to see what kind of "true" features they have?





I did find it interesting when I was watching the link on here of the live show. By looking at the pictures people post on here of horses set up, you'd think that the horse would instantly set up and hold that pose until the handler told them to relax. But what I saw on the live feed, was a bunch of antsy horses that would relax, and had to be reminded and repositioned back into setting up. It made me feel like the horses would rather be in a relaxed position?

I'm just curious, the horses that would rather be stalled rather than turned out, do they have the option of going in or out at their will? My horses have two run-ins, and would rather be out sunbathing in our 115 degree weather, then under the shade. They also choose to be out in our 60 mph winds, rain and snow, rather than stay in their shelter.





I do think that show horses lead a posh life, and it's no more inhumane then what celebrities do to themselves to make themselves desireable. But I've always wondered...what is mane pulling? That sounds painful.


----------



## Minimor (Dec 24, 2009)

> We all need to differentiate between things that are cruel and things that we simply don't like.


This is so true, and yet some cannot seem to manage it.
Yes, there are some hungry show horses out there, but not all of them are starved down into show condition. (Mine sure aren't!!) A few get their feet trimmed too short to make a certain height division, but that doesn't mean they all do. I don't razor my horses' heads & I don't goop them up with highlighter gel--I don't think it's cruel to do so, I just think it looks ugly & so do not do it. I don't think it's cruel to keep a horse in the barn for the day and turn him out at night...some people do that here just because it's the best way during fly season--fewer bugs at night so the horses are more comfortable out on pasture through the night, and are happy to be in the barn where the bugs can't get to them during the day. If it's a day where the "bulldogs" are bad...bulldogs being the name given to a species of large, biting (serious biting!) flies here...putting the horses in the barn is about the only thing that can be done to protect them from those miserable things. Fly spray has no effect at all.

Krissy, you should turn your attention to the horses that are truly abused--those that are truly being starved, right to the point where they go down and even die--instead of lumping all show horses into the "abused" category, pointing fingers and making accusations against those who show their horses with traditional American grooming methods. I only wish that the worst abuse any horse suffered is to have its whiskers shaved off for a show!!! In the space of a couple weeks (or less) I've seen you condemn some who don't deserve condemnation and defend someone who doesn't deserve that defence.





Hey, I will join you guys that are getting together for hot chocolate, cokes and John's ribeye steaks...today when it is snowing heavy here (mild temps though) some hot chocolate would be just perfect. I can bring the Timmies donuts, they always go good!!


----------



## krissy3 (Dec 25, 2009)

KanoasDestiny said:


> I'm not for or against showing as I've never been to a show, nor do I have any interest in showing. I have heard countless horror stories about what "some" horses have to go through though. While I LOVE the look of a show horse, I wonder why it is so necessary to do some of the stuff to them. If a horse truly has a wonderful neck, body, or gait (or wonderful conformation), why do people have to enhance it by using sweats or weights? I would think that if you were looking for a horse to use for breeding, you'd look at "unaltered" horses, rather than ones that have had cosmetic altering to see what kind of "true" features they have?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Mane pulling is literally pulling the mane , some horses dont mind it , some hate it.The difference between cosmetic surgury for us and our horses, is that we decide to do it to ourselves. This topic is no longer about wisker trimming. It went beyond that. True almost every horse would rather have the choice of being out when they want. Horses are not like dogs , they dont need to crawl under trees or in caves to find shelter, they would rather hurdle together in a group and sleep freely with one on guard . If you only feed your horse in a stall,then it will naturally want to be in the stall to find food. Kanoas I agree with you .



People that show professionally have to do these things to their horses, because the "other guy" is doing it, they will all support eachother, and no one thinks the things they put their horses through for the sake of winning is harsh. But we the people that can win without the hash treatment of horses will win in the long run.



In a way that the professional showers wouldnt understand .I am done with this topic, things will never change, but I have a lot more respect for people that can show a relaxed happy natural horse.


----------



## tagalong (Dec 25, 2009)

> This topic is no longer about wisker trimming. It went beyond that.


Yes - because you took it there deliberately. You labeled things as Cruel or Harsh that aren't - like horses being out at night instead of the heat of the day. Really? Wow. You point fingers and sneer - all while congratulating yourself for doing so. It comes across as rather sanctimonious. Thus it should not surprise you that it rubs some the wrong way.

When we shave whiskers here, the horses actually love it. They love the feeling of the clippers on their nose... they lean into it and often try to wrap their lips around the blade. Not exactly torture. Horses also do not use their whiskers in the same sensory way that a cat does. Horse whiskers are static - they do not flex back and forth like a cat's. A cat's whiskers are a flexible extension of its senses. Horse whiskers are just a rigid early warning sysytem when they stick their nose close to something. Two entirely different uses and scenarios. I have not seen horses with shaved whiskers having any trouble finding their way around or eating out of feed tubs.

You think it is cruel that fit, sleek show horses have a balanced diet? That they do not have huge hay bellies? That is not cruel - that is just sound horsemanship. So then it must be cruel that I make sure the airferns around here only have small helpings of hay and limited pasture time when the grass is lush. It is far better that the two of them gorge themselves as they are so founder-prone. Gotcha.



> We are not talking about basic horse care...all listed above are the basic care *every horse kept in captivity* deserves.


Bolding mine. That is a PETA-esque phrase. So just having horses then is cruel, I guess. Captivity instead of wandering the range, pawing through the snow for a few bites... who knew. By that reasoning, putting them in any stall is thus harsh. Driving is harsh. Hauling them in a trailer is harsh...



> I have a lot more respect for people that can show a relaxed happy natural horse.


Well, our horses showing at the top levels are relaxed and happy. If not, they would not "show" and be "on". They strut into the arena - they are not dragged in there.

I better go out there and tell them they are being treated so very harshly and that they are all supposed to be cowering in their stalls. Poor things. They never knew.

Sorry all - I just caught up on this thread that ran off the rails... and likely should not have posted. So now please hand me some of that hot chocolate and I'll add some Bailey's to it....


----------



## Humhill (Dec 25, 2009)

tagalong said:


> Sorry all - I just caught up on this thread that ran off the rails... and likely should not have posted. So now please hand me some of that hot chocolate and I'll add some Bailey's to it....


Completely agree Tagalong. However, I think Amaretto is the best in Hot Chocolate. Yum...

I think the biggest problem most of us that show are having here are that we're being lumped into the category of animal abusers when most people that show are the exact opposite. I agree, there are a few, but a very few. You can't tell me either that all the professionals and trainers don't care about their horses. I know several that I've had personal experience with that take the welfare of their horses very seriously. And you'll never convince me that there's a way to make money showing Minis as one poster suggested. If there is, tell me the secret!!!

Just stop generalizing.


----------



## Carolyn R (Dec 26, 2009)

Pearls of wisdom are embraced much more when they aren't oozing with sarcasm.

Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but so much more is accomplished when done so on a respectable adult level. It seems, lately, as if topics take a certain cynical turn when some people aren't thinking constructively when they post.

Lets all act like adults here, no need to "troll" for entertainment.


----------



## ohmt (Dec 26, 2009)

Beautiful Diane and god bless your wonderful daughter. What a true gift she must be...I bet you are very proud of her.

I hope everyone had a wonderful holiday!

p.s.-mane pulling isn't as harsh as it sounds...I have a special comb (that you can buy at any horse supply store) and you wrap the hair around it (a very small portion) and while holding the top so it doesn't hurt the horse, I pull so it cuts the hair. Its just a way of trimming down the mane when it gets too long. I have a stallion that has such a thick, long mane that if I don't do it every spring, its rather uncomfortable for him because of all the weight. It doesn't hurt him at all, I promise, and he ends up with a beautiful mane that makes his every day life a little more enjoyable. Plus, he gets extra treats afterwards


----------



## Sandee (Dec 27, 2009)

KanoasDestiny said:


> ..........................
> 
> I'm just curious, the horses that would rather be stalled rather than turned out, do they have the option of going in or out at their will? My horses have two run-ins, and would rather be out sunbathing in our 115 degree weather, then under the shade. They also choose to be out in our 60 mph winds, rain and snow, rather than stay in their shelter.
> 
> ...


Just for your curiosity. I have 3 minis here (stallion, gelding, & mare). Of those the stallion and gelding (and the stallion is worse) don't want out in the rain or the wind or the cold. They both come to the barn gate begging to come in out of that horrid weather -anything past a sprinkle is too much. The mare will go out in any weather and dig thru the snow for grass but the boys (6 and 22) are wooses and will only eat after she finds a spot!

Yes, they are, or were, all show horses and YES, they are spoiled!


----------

