# For those of you who did not think Einstein was a Dwarf



## Riverdance (Oct 7, 2012)

If you go one FB and go to Einstein, smallest horse and scroll down, you can see some pictures of him taken in March. I can only imagine what he looks like now, I can not see AMHA ever letting him keep his papers when they are brought permanent.

Perfect Miniature horse? I do not think so.

They are saying that the dam is 30" and the sire is 34" and they have no idea why Einstein is so small.


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## Mona (Oct 7, 2012)

I have always thought he was a dwarf, BUT, in this photo, he can also be seen as just a "pet" type quality (poor quality conformation-wise) horse, and DEFINITELY NOT something that should ever be used for breeding, in my opinion. Based soley on this photo, I do not think AMHA would pull papers. I have seen much more obvious dwarfs pictured on papers that were never pulled.


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## Tremor (Oct 7, 2012)

I'm going to hold my judgement until I see more current photos. In all of his past photos you can see his roached back and his faults. However, for as much attention as he gets I do wish they would change his status (from stallion to gelding) and his attitude.

He is around children all of the time. He acts like an ill-mannered child and the last I knew he was still in tact. Not something I would near children; a stallion who has no manners. Any who.

I also wish they would post his actual current height. He looks to be well past 26'' and much taller than my smallest two. I'm hoping that they'll post his height. He turns three this year and I'm sure they'll try to get him into the Guinness World Book of Records this next April when he turns three. Then, we'll know.

That's all I will say about him.

EDIT: We have all discussed his pedigree before. You can find my stance by looking bad through all of those threads. There are reason why I am not surprised why his dam produce him. Look at her pedigree.

Breeding can throw you some doozies. I have spent countless amount of hours looking up siblings of my mare who is VERY dwarfy looking (even at over 33'' tall) and has thrown a Type 3 dwarf foal (along with four non-dwarves who resembled their sire and were halfway decent looking) and I have not yet found any relatives that resemble her. Dwarfism likes to hide itself and sometimes even throw some surprises in there too; and when it does it likes to make them big.


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## MountainWoman (Oct 7, 2012)

I agree with Mona. One thing I would like to mention is that the photo posted has a copyright stamp on it so I would delete the photo and just post a link to it unless you have permission from the person who owns the photo.


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## Tremor (Oct 7, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> I agree with Mona. One thing I would like to mention is that the photo posted has a copyright stamp on it so I would delete the photo and just post a link to it unless you have permission from the person who owns the photo.


Agreed. I also think its against the rules to post horses that aren't yours; even if you're interested in buying them.

Btw, I think some horses just look bad in pictures. My horses do. They also look bad at certain angles. The conformational faults don't help, lol. But hey, I love them.


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## Riverdance (Oct 7, 2012)

In one of the other discussions



MountainWoman said:


> One thing I would like to mention is that the photo posted has a copyright stamp on it so I would delete the photo and just post a link to it unless you have permission from the person who owns the photo.


I removed the picture, but you can see many on his FB web site. I also agree that he is not that small as the man has picked him up and he looks pretty big. I have a foal right now who is only 19+ inches tall and about 35 lbs at 5 months. His dame is 33.5" tall and his sire is 31.75" tall. He is just a pip-squeak, and he is a lot smaller then the picture of the guy holding Einstein.

I am going to take pictures of my boy with a 20 year old holding him. I will post them later. May be I should start advertising him as the smallest stallion. LOL


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## MountainWoman (Oct 7, 2012)

I went to post a link to a video of him and it embedded the video and I don't know if that's allowed so I removed it. If you do a search of Einstein playing with a ball, it will lead you to a YouTube video of him from last year. He's a cutie pie for sure and doesn't look like a dwarf to me but although he's small, he's definitely grown and I think if I posed my tiny mare by her big EquiSpirit ball, she'd look about the same size.


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## 2minis4us (Oct 7, 2012)

I decided to



keep my opinion to myself.


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## Tremor (Oct 7, 2012)

2minis4us said:


> Why don't they show current photos ? It seems obvious there is something wrong with him or they would be promoting more ... just IMO


Exactly. They haven't posted too many photos for the past year and the ones they have have been at obscure angles. They mostly just continue to photoshop pictures of his when he was younger into new backgrounds.

They also tend to photoshop his conformational faults out of pictures as well.


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## Just_Rena (Oct 7, 2012)

Riverdance said:


> In one of the other discussions
> 
> I removed the picture, but you can see many on his FB web site. I also agree that he is not that small as the man has picked him up and he looks pretty big. I have a foal right now who is only 19+ inches tall and about 35 lbs at 5 months. His dame is 33.5" tall and his sire is 31.75" tall. He is just a pip-squeak, and he is a lot smaller then the picture of the guy holding Einstein.
> 
> I am going to take pictures of my boy with a 20 year old holding him. I will post them later. May be I should start advertising him as the smallest stallion. LOL


 WOW I must have THE WORLDS SMALLEST STALLION (not), I am a 5'5 155 lb woman and I can (did it yesterday) pick up and carry my 2 1/2month old stud colt. ROFLOL



. He is my profile picture.


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## Jill (Oct 7, 2012)

I do think he's a dwarf.


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## 2minis4us (Oct 7, 2012)

Does it really matter if he is or isn't ?? Most of us know. I guess it is slightly offensive that they tried to get famous with him, and hiding his "imperfections".


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## misty'smom (Oct 7, 2012)

I remember when Einstein was born and reading about him and seeing the videos. I am getting my 2 fillies on Saturday and one Josie is a dwarf. She defiantly is much smaller than Misty but you can easily see that she is dwarf and looks different. But to someone not knowing horses (minis to be exact) she looks to be just a small horse. As a matter of fact when I went to see Misty at 10 days old my grown daughter saw Josie and said "Oh Mom lets get that one look how small and cute she is!" I think Einstein is cute and his size appeals to those looking for the smallest horse, something unusual!! I would like to see a current picture of him.


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## Jill (Oct 7, 2012)

2minis4us said:


> Does it really matter if he is or isn't ?? Most of us know. I guess it is slightly offensive that they tried to get famous with him, and hiding his "imperfections".


He's held out as a representative our our breed. Does it matter? It does to me!

... and a clear majority of miniature horse people here do think he's a dwarf, and cared enough to register an opinion:

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=123063


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## Riverdance (Oct 7, 2012)

Just_Rena said:


> WOW I must have THE WORLDS SMALLEST STALLION (not), I am a 5'5 155 lb woman and I can (did it yesterday) pick up and carry my 2 1/2month old stud colt. ROFLOL
> 
> 
> 
> . He is my profile picture.


Just Rena I got you beat, my 5 month old colt I can pick up easily and I am 61 and 5.5, won't mention my weight



.LOL


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## tagalong (Oct 7, 2012)

I should make our little colt Pete famous... he is 7 months old, very small and refined. And I guarantee he will be smaller than Einstein. Oh wait - Pete is not going to remain a mighty stallion - _so much for fame and fortune!!_


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## RockRiverTiff (Oct 7, 2012)

My issue with Einstein is that they continue to market him as "Smallest Stallion." As long as he remains a stallion, they are insinuating that he is a breeding horse. Whether or not he is a dwarf, he is very clearly not breeding quality, and while we can go back and forth about personal preferences in type all day, I dare anyone to say they think a disproportionately large, raw head and a roached back are a fair trade for small size and a good disposition (the latter of which is true of almost all the minis I've encountered). The filly that I announced as a dwarf this summer has an adorable face and no roached back, and I guarantee she's going to mature smaller than Einstein - does that mean I should start doing TV with her and promoting her as Smallest Mare? I have absolutely no problem with them promoting him as a beloved pet, but if that's all he is then why not geld him already?


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 8, 2012)

I am not convinced he is a dwarf. He does, however, have a congenital deformity (I am pretty sure it is scoliosis) that has necessitated his having steel rods put in all down his spine- the claimed the mare lay on him but we all know, I think, just how likely that is- possible? yes. Likely? no. Anyway, he now moves like a crab, hobbling along sideways. They still give him no access to other horses- well, that would break their "unique" bond with him wouldn't it? People, we are dealing with un-horsy people who have not a clue what they are doing and have way, way too much money and time on their hands, If he is a dwarf, and they breed him, his foals will either be normal height or dwarfs, so it seems pretty much self limiting. It is galling that they are promoting him as a perfect little horse but who is listening? The AMHA is not promoting him, neither are any of the other registries, and if the claim on their website galls that much then send them a legal challenge- prove it or take it down, as he is larger than the horse in the Guinness records book, which is the accepted "expert" in this case.

The roach back is part of the scoliosis btw and the one thing I really would take issue with the owners over is the pain and suffering they put the animals through to have this op done- it is extremely painful and doctors will think hard and long before putting a child through it, why would you do it to an animal? The recovery time is long too, and also painful, I think we all know how hard it is to make these decisions but most of us put the animals feelings first, not our own.


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## MountainWoman (Oct 8, 2012)

I found a share button on his YouTube video so it can't be copyrighted. Here he is last year.

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I didn't know about the rods in his back. I think he is adorable and I have no trouble with anyone writing books for children and taking a tiny little horse out and about. Do we know he is going to be bred? Maybe he has to stay intact for a medical reason? (Sorry if that's a dumb question.)


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## Riverdance (Oct 8, 2012)

Today these people posted Einstein in bed with them. They are so poorly portraying what a Miniature horse is and how to take care of one. More and more people will want to buy these tiny little cutes, thinking that they can keep them as house pets. Remember the Pot Belly Pigs? It will just encourage people to breed them so they can sell them for big bucks.

Most of the newer pictures are of him sitting or laying down. Does anyone have a horse that lays down or sits down most of the time? When they do that, they are in pain. It bothers me to see a horse exploited so much that they do not seem to have regard for the pain this boy must be going through.

The video above is when he was much younger.


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## 2minis4us (Oct 8, 2012)

I agree with you Riverdance !


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## Riverdance (Oct 8, 2012)

OK, I said I would post my little boy. He is over 5 months here. The girl holding him is 5.3 and weighs 106lbs.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 8, 2012)

The whole "in bed" thing was shown on "Super Tiny Animals" which I would have thought would have been on Animal Planet or some such, by now. If not then there was a good section of one of the episodes purely on Einstein, where the owner insists that he is like her child (she cannot have children but I do not see that as an excuse- to my mind it just makes it worse!) so this poor little beasts role in life is to be her child substitute, much like Paris Hilton.......

Incidentally, in the series, which of course is video, it is obvious that they are having quite a hard time holding him down. A horse can actually be taight to lie down quite easily, the trick, and the skill, is in getting them to stay down, willing and trustingly. These people do not have the skill to do that. My best bet is that, were they to get Einstein an equine companion- and there are plenty out there small enough- he would not interact with them at all, which of course is not what they want.......


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## 2minis4us (Oct 8, 2012)

I just watched a clip from the Super Tiny Animals and saw Einstein. It was sad to see the couple who owns him laughing about him not staying down. The more I see the less I think of these people. I wonder how the breeder feels about all this.


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## MountainWoman (Oct 8, 2012)

Riverdance, what a cutie - both horse and girl!


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## MindyLee (Oct 8, 2012)

2minis4us

they are the breeders...

so sad.

I dont have facebook so cant see any videos or pics, but from his foal pics, I would be embarressed to publicly say he is of quality and "know" better!

Its all about $$$ and attention! Thats it!


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 8, 2012)

No, the owners are not the breeders. They bought him for an undisclosed sum almost at birth, so, cynically, I am guessing that the breeders are not too upset at the whole thing. YOu will notice, however, how a stud/farm name is not used??


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## horsehug (Oct 8, 2012)

The farm he was bred by was Tiz A Miniature Horse Farm in New Hampshire. I remember when he was born and there were some videos of them and they seemed like very nice people. Here is their website. http://tizminihorses.com/index.html

I found one of his really cute baby pix on their scapbook page.

I am one of those who does not think he is a dwarf. He has a few faults, but none of the main characteristics of dwarfs in my opinion. I think he was tiny at birth but has grown to be a normal sized foal or 2 year old or whatever age he is by now.

Of course all of this is JMHO





Susan O.

www.hilliardhorsestohug.com


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## HGFarm (Oct 8, 2012)

He has a big head and a terribly roached back. I have always thought he just had terrible conformation. I am looking through the photos on the FB 'the smallest stallion'. Some of the photos are more recent I think.


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## 2minis4us (Oct 8, 2012)

His back looks bad, poor little guy. I am not saying he is a dwarf.


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## Tremor (Oct 8, 2012)

I've said this before and I'll say it again. Taking into account what his sire looks like, what he has produced (including some questionable offspring), what the dam looks like, and her pedigree; I say that this is more than just a fluke when it comes to breeding.

We could argue this topic to death (and we have before) but there is nothing more we can do but speculate and use the limited amount of concrete knowledge from our own experiences with dwarfism and from John Eberths research. Until there is a test and he is tested (which I highly doubt he will ever be....) that is all we can do.

On the topic of excessive laying down; in 2007 we had a Type 3 dwarf colt named Simon. It was the dam's second foal and second dwarf. The first had very minimal characteristics and was our second foal overall. That foal passed away at two days. Simon stayed longer and was our little baby. We wrapped his legs and were in the process of ordering his "Magic Shoes". He would ALWAYS lay down. Looking at this boy it is obvious why. It doesn't take a conformational expert to know why. If I even have to explain why then I highly suggest you guys to look at a horse. Simon's health began to decline once fall hit and the night of the first frost (while weaning) he didn't come in from the pasture. He couldn't get up. We had to carry him into the barn that night; the following morning he was dead. There was nothing we could have done. What should have been done right from the start was euthanizing him. He was 6 months old.





EDIT: Click on photo to make it larger.


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## Riverdance (Oct 8, 2012)

There is a form of Dwarfism that gets more obvious as they get older. Einstein is following that look as he ages. Bear Branch Painted Feather is his sire, who is out of a well known stallion.


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## Tremor (Oct 8, 2012)

Riverdance said:


> There is a form of Dwarfism that gets more obvious as they get older. Einstein is following that look as he ages. Bear Branch Painted Feather is his sire, who is out of a well known stallion.


Personally, I think every type of dwarfism follows those lines; but I do get what you're saying. I have had a couple that as foals you'd be like, "Nah, no way." and then as yearlings, two year olds, and three years of age you're like, "Well I'll be darned...better get rid of any mirrors!"

I've had three youngsters end up that way. Looking at their dam's one could argue poor conformation but taking into account their pedigrees and what not you just have to take that call.

Here's one, a colt from 2007. This was a couple hours after birth. The most extreme trait you can see at this point is his neck/head ratio. Whhoooowwee.






Here he is at four years of age. Nothing too bad, mind you. He was gelded with ease at nearly four years, acts like the lead stallion in the herd, and LOVES to kick up his heels. Nothing hindering this boy. He's stiff legged, cowhocked, SHORT neck, weee bit of an underbite, small eared (I firmly believe that this is a trait of carriers and dwarves after most of our carriers/dwarfs having small ears.), and etc. Just a quick picture of how noticeable it can get with age.


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## horsehug (Oct 8, 2012)

In response to the post that said a stud/farm name is not being used.......... I looked him up on the AMHA studbook and his name is Tiz Einstein.

So his farm did give him their prefix.

Susan O.


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## Tremor (Oct 8, 2012)

horsehug said:


> In response to the post that said a stud/farm name is not being used.......... I looked him up on the AMHA studbook and his name is Tiz Einstein.
> 
> So his farm did give him their prefix.
> 
> Susan O.


I just wanted to reply to your post to say that your chestnut filly and silver black roan colt this year were SO nice. Love, love, love them.


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## horsehug (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you so much, Tremor



I really appreciate that.

Susan O.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 9, 2012)

I did not mean to imply the farm had not put their name to him, only to point out that the _owners_ never, ever mention it.....

I think he is really poorly conformed, and I am not sure if scoliosis is linked to any form of dwarfism, but since he has been operated on and steel bars fitted it is hardly surprising that he has a strange gait and a humped back!!

In this case I honestly do not think it is relevant as to whether or no he is a dwarf - he quite obviously is not breeding quality and we, just as obviously, can do nothing to prevent them breeding him or to stop them promoting him.

I think we should just ignore the whole circus as the old adage "there is no such thing as bad publicity" is sadly true.


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## Genie (Oct 9, 2012)

Amen, Rabbitsfizz


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## horsehug (Oct 9, 2012)

Thanks for explaining, Rabbitsfizz. Sorry I misunderstood.

I never thought they ever had plans of breeding him. Anything I have ever seen about them and him was just about how much they love and enjoy him (even if some of the things they do are not quite what most people who have been around horses a lot more do with them).

But I might be wrong again, as I am often "out of the loop". For instance I never read about him having surgery and I'd like to read about that if there is a link somewhere that you could direct me to. Also if there has been mention by his owners of breeding him I never read that, but realize I might have missed it.

Susan O.


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## atotton (Oct 9, 2012)

I thought this was interesting.... the owners remark on breeding small horses. Also the remark about how they were lucky he was not dis formed. http://sunlandrvresorts.com/the-worlds-smallest-stallion-visits-golden-village-palms-rv-resort/


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## chandab (Oct 9, 2012)

Check out "The View" clip that's on that page, at least he's now wearing a proper halter for his appearances (at least this one anyway).

I still really don't know for sure about the dwarf issues, but definitely poor conformation.


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## Tremor (Oct 9, 2012)

chandab said:


> Check out "The View" clip that's on that page, at least he's now wearing a proper halter for his appearances (at least this one anyway).
> 
> I still really don't know for sure about the dwarf issues, but definitely poor conformation.


When was he on the View?


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## atotton (Oct 9, 2012)

I'm not sure I was just googled Einstein, when I stumbled upon the clip.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 9, 2012)

Attoton... Thanks for the link... I don't check out Facebook or anything... But man is his head giant....


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## ohmt (Oct 10, 2012)

Atotton-they remark on not breeding horses of his size, not that they are going to be breeding him. On one of the many other Einstein threads someone emailed the owners and posted the response and they have absolutely no plans to breed him. He looks great in the video and he is obviously well cared for and loved. These threads amaze me. Dwarf, no. Breeding quality, heck no. I just still don't understand the big fuss over him.

On another note, a breeder from Oregon was just charged with about 30 counts of animal neglect. Let's see if that gets 5 pages of comments.


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## shadelady (Oct 10, 2012)

Sadly i think this subject has been done to death. There are hundreds, if not thousands, of badly conformed minis out there, a large number of you on here will have bred one yourselves at some point. Just because his mis informed ( or very smart !) owners have chosen this as a money making excersise in no reason to start bashing his breeding. It takes two to make a foal, and no one has passed any comment about the mare's bloodlines. Between you all you have thoroughly upset a very lovely lady who has done nothing but good for the mini industry over the years, and supported this forum, and driven her away from here.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 10, 2012)

The owners do not need the money, I do not think it is about the money at all. They have spent thousands and thousands of dollars on this little "child substitute" and I honestly think they think they are doing right by him. In the grand scale of things it matters not one whit- he is not ours, we can do NOTHING to "rectify" the situation (and none of us have the money for his ongoing care anyway) so what are we complaining about?

Yes, it is distasteful to me to see all the publicity and misinformation that goes on, on his page and every time he appears on TV (There is a programme made here called "Super Tiny Animals" that has all the information I have put up about him, and more, on it- you may be able to find it [legally] on You Tube if it is not on Animal Planet, my friend was on it and was very careful to explain the difference between her dwarf and her other minis) but whining all over these pages about it is not going to change anything. Go make a legal challenge to their usage of "The smallest horse" if it annoys you so much, go on their website and ask them nicely to correct all their mistakes, in short, do something.

Here is not the place to be chewing all this over- AGAIN.

As to anyone being driven away form the Forum- I saw nothing on here to upset anyone except the most thin skinned, quite frankly, the Mods are all over anyone who gets too sharp, and no-one has. Everything that is discussed is out there in the common domain.

I just think we have better things to do.

Like _real_ cruelty!


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## Jill (Oct 10, 2012)

Who CARES if they need money. Doesn't change that a really poor example of our breed is being exploited, poor manners showcased, and the public given the wrong impression. No wonder people are surprised to see that quality minis "look like real horses". If most minis were like Einstein, I'd never have wanted one. Not a fan of how that little horse is being used.


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## Tremor (Oct 10, 2012)

shadelady said:


> It takes two to make a foal, and no one has passed any comment about the mare's bloodlines.


I have...multiple times in this thread. I've mentioned how I'm not surprised by his condition because of her pedigree....most notably Bonds Tiny Tim.

Just saying.


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## mdegner (Oct 10, 2012)

Well said Rabbitsfizz and OHMT, lets move on to real cruelty and five pages worth of comments.

I can't believe people are naming and bashing the stud and mare on this forum. There are real people who own those horses and this is beyond the pale. All of us who breed horses have had horses that are great and some that are not so great. I sure as heck wouldn't want someone throwing around my horse's name on here because of a less than stellar progeny example. At best, it shows a complete lack of empathy and at worst, it's mean spirited and cruel.

ENOUGH ALREADY


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## Jill (Oct 10, 2012)

At the risk of stating what may be obvious, those receptive to an anti-cruelty message are the very people who'd never commit it. In all sincerity, I think that includes every person here.


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## Connie P (Oct 10, 2012)

I was not going to respond here but I have decided to place my last Facebook post here so people will know the truth. Thank you.

My point here is this and then I really must move forward as I am a very busy woman and try to stay very focused on positive things.  Have Einstein's owners placed him in the public eye. Absolutely!

Have Einstein's owners been promoting him as a breeding stallion? Not that I have ever seen. Have Einstein's owners promoted him as a "perfect" example of the miniature horse breed? Not that I have ever seen. This dwarf topic has been beaten absolutely to death in every way, shape and form (regarding this particular horse) and it is cruel and unnecessary. Yes indeed his wonderful owners have placed him in the public eye as "the smallest stallion". That is the only way I have ever seen this little horse publicized. When people start slinging mud at his sire and grandsire because "they" have determined on their own (sight unseen I'm sure) that Einstein is a dwarf in "their" opinion that is crude, rude AND Malicious! There are many horses in this industry that have produced dwarfs. It is part of the breed people. Is Einstein a dwarf? I have no idea, nor do I care to be quite frank. I think he is cute as a button and boy is he ever loved by his human family. God Bless them!

I have been contacted by the owner of LB with a beautiful note and I will work with her privately from here. God bless to all and please try to be nice to one another. XXOO


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## horsehug (Oct 10, 2012)

Extremely well said, Connie!

Susan O.


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## Minimor (Oct 10, 2012)

Connie P said:


> There are many horses in this industry that have produced dwarfs. It is part of the breed people.


The first statement is true. The second one--also true. It is also true that people will talk about it and even debate the topic when someone asks if or states that a certain horse is a dwarf. The fact that dwarfism is part of the breed is no reason to not talk about it--and it is no excuse for anyone to continue breeding with known dwarf producers (I know, not a part of this thread, but it is a fact that some do use it as an excuse for their horses--sort of like the locking stifle problem!)

It is nice that Einstein is well cared for and much loved; it is too bad that they don't promote him as the worlds smallest GELDING. It is too bad that the mini horse getting the most publicity is this one. I have visions of telling someone I have Miniatures and they respond: oh, like Einstein!

I would have to say um, no , not hardly!!


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## Minimor (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm sorry, I totally forgot that little thing, that we are not supposed to talk about dwarfism. Some would like to keep it the miniature horse's dirty little secret? If we don't talk about it then it doesn't exist?

I am also deeply sorry that people are bashing you, ML, because of this discussion!!


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## mshasta88 (Oct 10, 2012)

I was also not going to say anything, but after carefully reading this thread and doing my research on the stallion, I’m not too impressed. Weather he is a dwarf or not, he is a very poor example of our breed like many others have mentioned. When I see conformational issues on a horse that can potentially cause pain and hurt to the animal, I find nothing cute or adorable about it. I feel for the horse and I’m saddened that he has been wrongfully put up for display like this. Furthermore, there is no reason why this horse should be kept a stallion even if there was no intention to breed him. Like Mary Lou said, we have the right to defend our breed especially if it’s being represented by an undesirable stallion at best. I think it is right for the public to understand that this little guy should not be representing the breed.


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## Mona (Oct 10, 2012)

What I don't understand is why it is OK to name dwarfs and dwarf producers of the past, yet it is not OK to talk about the ones living, when it is the one living, and in the breed at the current time, that affects us the most?!


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 11, 2012)

I do not see any of that as a problem, Mona, and I am not sure where it said that it was.

My point is that it is all irrelevant as we cannot do anything about whether or not they breed Einstein, except maybe hope that AMHA, for once, actually gives a (insert Rhett Butler statement here) and prevents the registration of the foals, or hope the owners do have enough sense to realise that a little operated u[on, spine full of steel rods, unsocialised, beastie is not actually breedable.

If this thread were just discussing dwarfs and dwarf producers it would be great, educational and really useful, but it seems to be degenerating into a criticism of the owners (no matter how polite).

The fact that ML and LB are getting flak form this would suggest that most people around the animal himself do actually know that what is being said, hard though it may be to accept, is actually true, but are not ready to have their bubble burst yet!

The general public? *le sigh* Well, just remember that the horses that bring the high prices, whenever they appear at auction, are still the dwarfs....


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## 2minis4us (Oct 11, 2012)

Whether it has been to death as a topic or not, are we NOT allowed to discuss it on here ?


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## misty'smom (Oct 11, 2012)

I am new here and I am getting my first mini on Saturday. After doing much research and getting some advice here I decided to get her stablemate Josie who is a dwarf. I understand that a dwarf is a genetic defect but I did not know that it is such a "touchy" topic. I am getting Josie as a companion for Misty and she will be given the same love and care as Misty. I taught in special Ed for 8 years and I look at the mini dwarfs as a mini with "down syndrome". I know that I will have questions that I would like to be able to ask all of you that have the experience but is this topic " a no, no or taboo??" I do understand that they should NOT be breed or promoted but they do exist and sharing knowledge can only help to better educate people with minis and dwarfs.


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## Mona (Oct 11, 2012)

No Mistysmoon...the subject of dwarfs is not always "taboo" or a "no-no". There are MANY people on this forum that have experience with dwarfs and are very open and helful in discussing and sharing information on them, so please don't feel afraid to ask. It seems the "deeper" problem here is that Einstein's owners are seemingly promoting him as the Wold's Smallest Stallion, and due to this, he is (a) not living a "normal" horse life, causing behavioral problems, and (b) many people see him in the news and think this is what a Miniature Horse is supposed to look like. Breeders have spent decades and HUGE $$$$ trying to disprove that minis are dumpy little ponies with ill attitudes, and to many of them, this sort of thing makes them feel like it destroys all that they have been working towards.

Again, please do not hesitate to post for help and advice if the need or want arises for you in the future.


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## stormy (Oct 11, 2012)

Because this is an informational forum I just wanted to bring up a couple points:

Not every stallion needs to be bred and keeping a colt intact and not breeding him is no crime, many countries keep stallions as riding and performance horses and never use them for breeding. Assuming someone is going to breed a stallion just because it has all the parts is no different than assuming if you own a mare you are going to breed her. Stallions can be happy and terrifically smart and talented performance animals and never be bred to a mare.

Not all deformities in minis are directly related to dwarfism...minis and indeed horses of all sizes, breeds and backgrounds can have spinal deformities, off bites, leg deformities for a variety of reasons...bad genetics, placement in the uterus during development, birth injuries, inappropriate or lack of dental or hoof care while growing...premature foals may have joint deformities due to unformed bones and joints at birth...don't assume dwarfism but don't breed these on either regardless of the ability to prove they are genetic deformities or not! Plenty of horses to breed without them!


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## Debby - LB (Oct 11, 2012)

*This is the end of this topic.* If you would like to put your own horse on the board and start a topic like this that would be fine... it could be very informative.
Some of the posts on here would be very hurtful to me if I owned this little horse. Thank you so much to the people who posted here with a nice friendly comment or had the back bone to stand up and say this was cruel but mostly thank you to the people who were nice in pointing out helpful information regarding dwarf characteristics.


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