# Farrier Rant



## HorseMom (Nov 22, 2009)

I've been having a problem with farriers and owning mini horses. The majority seem to think that they are just pets and don't take their trims seriously. The last one decided that he was going to completely change Jay's angle without discussing it with me first. Jay is dead lame, and this is a horse that has never been lame. Jay looks like he has four club feet when he really doesn't. I hate to see Jay so uncomfortable. I sent an e-mail to the farrier to ask him what I should do to make it easier for him until the feet grow back. I was very nice in the e-mail and tried to sound like I wasn't blaming him. He got very defensive and told me that it wasn't him, that Jay must have gotten hurt when I worked him over the weekend. I didn't work him until this morning and only did a short lunge because it was obvious that he was lame. I did lunge him before the trim on Friday, he'll stand better once that excess energy is burned off. The farrier said that Jay should have been lame right off the bat if it was the trim. Is that true? He also said that he didn't hit pink or get blood and that's the only way a horse would be lame after a trim. I don't think that's true. I just want to have all my ducks in a row before I send him another e-mail. I've also called the vet that boards at the farm to see if he could take a look just in case it is something else.




I've had to stop Jay's training, this is going to be a huge set back in our CDE training. The good news is I'll have lots of time to work on clicker training Jay.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 22, 2009)

Hi, Lots of sympathy here, I know what you mean and it is totally frustrating. Is your mini lame on the front, rear or all around?.

I just changed farriers and one of the new guys was saying "You have to leave the heel really long on these little guys..." and I spent some time trying to explain that I wanted angles just like a big horse, in line with the pasterns etc etc... If you stand them up too straight and leave the heels too long, they land on their toes and can get sore. If it is the rear you are having problems with lameness, the wrong angle can make a stifle issue appear where it wasn't... You can trim too short and not get blood and still make them WAY sore.



There are many ways to make a horse sore and not draw blood.

I hope you work it out, but I totally understand your vent. I am shopping farriers right now after my long time farrier moved away, and it is very stressful. My newest farrier is an amish guy that looks like he is about 14 years old, but he is being very careful and knock on wood, so far is really trying to be careful about the angles and take his time. Will take me a few tries to get comfortable. PS, if it wasn't the trim, you might have a gravel or stone bruise brewing and the trim hurried things along, so getting somebody to look at the feet is a real good idea. My friend just dealt with a pocket on her horse's foot that popped up seemingly overnight. The farrier had to really dig to find the spot and then it just popped and drained. Best wishes for a fast solution


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## chandab (Nov 22, 2009)

Not necessarily this situation, but I so understand farrier woes... I live in the middle of nowhere, and we seem to be in horse supply/service no man's land, despite there being many horses. [Many do their own farrier work and dont do anything extra for their horses.]

Anyway, I've been through 3-4 horseshoers in the last 10 years: first was ok, but became hard to get ahold of (didn't like the minis when I added them); second left the country to marry his Danish girlfriend (he was very good, but not easy to get ahold of); third was second's brother and decided to quit horseshoing and go to vet tech school (he was so-so for skill, but pretty good about treating them right). He left Dec 2008, we had a lousy winter with tons of snow, we were snowed in off and on most of the winter, so there was no way I could try to get a new farrier in here under those circumstances, I started trimming them myself to try to keep up, but I have 3 problem kids (laminitic issues) and my skills aren't that good. Finally, winter broke and I found a new farrier, his wife told me he perferred not to do minis, so I only scheduled for the saddle horses, and then talked to him in person. We initially had some scheduling problems, but he was since dropped some difficult clients and said he should be easier to get ahold of. My saddle horses' hooves haven't looked better in a very long time. He's now done the three problem girls at least once (one twice) and all three are standing more normal than they have in months, all are starting to move better. I hope I don't have to change farriers again for quite some time, now that I finally found someone who can trim my horses.


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## Indy's mom (Nov 22, 2009)

I don't have any answers for you but this thread seems like it should go under the regular mini forum! It would get more traffic there and probably some more answers!!

Good luck with your poor boy!!!!

Tammy


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## My2Minis (Nov 23, 2009)

I hope you can find a good farrier. Both of my minis came with bad feet and my farrier has their feet looking great now. She is a Natural Balance trimmer (I'm not sure what that means, but she does a great job and is very gentle with them). I hope I never have to change farriers.


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## albahurst (Nov 23, 2009)

I so feel your pain! I went through many farriers before finding my current one. I looked for certified barefoot trimmers on the internet and found the name of several and started emailing. The one I have is EXCELLENT! Good luck!

PS- Even 'pets' need their hooves trimmed correctly


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## Katiean (Nov 23, 2009)

I know what you are going through with farriers. If his angles were changed it does not have to show up that day and if the farrier is cutting the toes short and leaving the heel long. I think I would just ask the guy nicely if he would come and take the heels down. You do not have to wait for the toe to grow out if the heels are infact long.I had a guy that was making one of my mares feet collaps to the side. My new farrier was leaving her heels long until I had a very casual conversation with her about this mare and that the vet did not agree that she had club feet in the front. She is getting a more normal foot. I had one guy that said you could not trim all of the excess (on the heel) all at once. My new farrier feels you should just trim them with the flat of the foot and forget artifical angles. I tell her what I want from her. She tells me where I can not have what I want. We tallk about it a bit more and she does a real nice job on my kids. My colt was slightly cow hocked and she has checked him over more than once. She trimmed him flat. He walks strait. He just stands like a slob. He has nothing wrong with his confermation. He can stand strait if he wants to. She has gone over his legs more than once . He is just lazy. She has done all of my horses 3 x's now and she is coming back on the second. My colt has never stood better. My farrier does compitions and always places high. She does a very good job. One more note on angles. I had a Standardbred mare that had broken her sesmoid when she was on the track. When I bought her the trainer said I needed to keep the presure off of that sesmoid so I should have her trimmed with a bit higher heel on that foot. I told the farrier to give her a bit steeper angle on "her" right foot. After about 6 months he says "OH, I thought it was "MY" right". What a jerk. Anyway, I bring her up because after that we just had her trimmed flat and put her shoes on. She jumped and did trail and was riden hard with no problems with that sesmoid I was told to keep the presure off of.

One more note; I think if I were in your possition I would call the farrier out again. Get the heels taken down and if I had to pay for the second trim so be it. Your horses feet is more important that arguing with the guy and leaving your guy in pain.


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## Minimor (Nov 23, 2009)

A drastic change in angle can make the horse sore after a couple days--changing the angle affects the tendons & ligaments in the legs, and this is where the horse gets sore--in the tendons. If this farrier took the toes extremely short it's entirely possible that your horse is sore there too--and this could also get worse after a couple days of walking on those too-short toes. It isn't necessary to draw blood or even have pink showing for the foot to be too short. A hoof trimmed too short is easily bruised & if the horse walks a day or two on hard ground...or steps on a stone...the bruising will make him more sore than he was right after the trim.

If the feet look clubbed now, are the heels very long, or did this farrier take the heels short and the toes shorter? I'm just wondering if there's enough heel left that a bit could be trimmed off to make the hoof angle a little bit better?


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## Genie (Nov 23, 2009)

I don't agree that he would be lame right away, nor would he *not *be lame just because there was "no pink or bleeding".

I have had the horse be slighty sore the following day when I have been overly agressive.

Without seeing a before and after it's hard to say, and I assume it isn't obvious to you with regard to the angle.


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## maestoso (Nov 23, 2009)

I have found that the farriers that I am most happy with are the farriers who have direct experience with miniature horses. My perspective on this is based on the fact that I show, and many here would argue that mini or big horse, show horse or non-show horse, driving horse or halter horse, it is all the same and should be treated as such, I disagree with that, but that's not really what this is about.

I have used 2-3 big horse farriers on my minis, and 3 farriers that breed, raise, and show their own minis. I have also seen the work of a few others that breed and show their own minis. In all cases, I was much happier with the work with the "mini" farriers, even the ones with years and years less experience than the big horse farriers.

To the post, I'm not sure what kind of experience your farrier has, but maybe you can find a farrier with more mini experience?


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 23, 2009)

If it is at all possible I would look for a new farrier - this one is NOT a good one. It is definitely possible to not cut to the pink and still cause soreness. If he drastically changed his angles it wouldn't necessarily show up for a day or two due to tendon soreness or bruised toes or the coffin bone rotating slightly because of the pressure created by the new angle. If it is just the trim that is making him sore he should come around very quickly once he is trimmed properly. Could you clean his feet out well and take photos of the bottom (sole) and from the side to post here? Perhaps if you did that and then printed the replies out you could show them to him and get him to see reason.


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## HorseMom (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks everyone. I can take pictures later when I go to the farm to check on him. There really isn't much left of the hoof at all, for a farrier to work with. His right front is the worst. It seems to be the front that is hurting him the most. He was very short strided in the front when I lunged him on Sunday morning. And he is certainly not acting like his normal studly self. When the farm owner looked at him she was convinced that it would be a few weeks before I'll be able to work with him, but I'll see what the vet says today.


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## MindyLee (Nov 23, 2009)

As a mini farrier myself, it sounds like too much toe was taken off / hardly any heal and just because he said he didnt hit pink or blood, dosent mean he didnt and just not telling you. Also it most likely will take a few months to get enough hoof back to refix his feet back to the way their supposed to be. SORRY to hear this happened! This is a big thing when it comes to minis EVERYWHERE... and that is why I stepped in and bacame a local mini farrier for our county as that was/still a issue here too.


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## Sunny (Nov 23, 2009)

In the Sept/Oct issue of the American Farriers Journal, there's an article about trimming minis, wherein the author, Lynda Layne, interviewed Frank Lupton of Reflections, A Miniature Horse Farm in Oklahoma City. I hope I'm not breaking any copyright laws by copying some of it here for you. I hope you find it interesting, if nothing else.

Part of the article reads as follows: "Miniatures are animals whose hoof walls may be one-half to two-thirds as thick as those of full-sized horses", he [Frank Lupton] says. "And they weigh only about one-sixth as much. Their feet wear drastically different than those of a full-sized horse. In miniatures, the toe wears more than the heel, so I always take off more heel than toe and the ratio is often 2-to-1 or more." As a result, he believes many farriers are inclined to trim them just the opposite of what would be best for these smaller animals.

"Most people who go to school to be farriers are taught that you don't do much to the frog or heel on full-sized horses," he adds. "But in miniatures, you absolutely have to ruthlessly trim out that frog and heel, or they they will end up club-footed. That's what I see 80% or more of the time when a farrier who deals with full-sized hroses works on miniatures." The result can be a club-footed unbalanced appearing trim that can lead to ring bone and other problems.

"For the most part, I'll trim out frog until I'm down to the sole and then I'll use my nippers and cut away more heel than toe," says Lupton. "After that, I just rasp a little bit and level the foot. Some sole gets left, certainly, but not a lot."

"Lupton can't stress enough the importance of following this "opposite" trimming procedure. Besides the threat of a club-foot situation, he says miniatures are prone to developing contracted heels if they're not trimmed properly or often enough. Their heels will simply grow and roll under."

The article goes on to say, "Lupton says people often ask what angles he likes. "From the point of the toe, to the middle of the fetlock joint, I want to see a straight line," he says. "But what you see most of the time is a very steep hoof and then it breaks over into a sloping pastern."

In the section on trimming babies, the article says, "Lupton stresses the importance of early trimming with miniature foals. "I usually start timming when they're about 2 weeks of age," he says. "Basically, I take off toe to help them stand up a little straighter. When some miniature colts are born, their tendons can be a little bit lax and there's a tendency for them to set back somewhat on their pasterns. Since they're born with losts of toe, that's probably the one time in thier life when you really want to go after the toes and get them standing up a little bit.

"After the initial trim, he touches them up once a month. But in the real world where people don't have a farrier living with them, consistent trimming every 6 to 8 weeks is enough.

"He's seen some miniature foals with legs that went every which way. In thses cases, he recommneds just taking care of their feet and putting off straightening until they get a little age on them."


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## HorseMom (Nov 23, 2009)

Thanks. That is very helpful. I'll have to see if I can find the whole article so I can read it and maybe hand a copy to the farrier.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 23, 2009)

Although I agree in general with everything that Frank is saying in that article I would add that each and every horse, large or small, has to be taken as an individual - actually every HOOF needs to be taken as an individual so although you can use that article as a guideline you also need to look at each foot you work on and it's particular needs.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 23, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> Although I agree in general with everything that Frank is saying in that article I would add that each and every horse, large or small, has to be taken as an individual - actually every HOOF needs to be taken as an individual so although you can use that article as a guideline you also need to look at each foot you work on and it's particular needs.


You got that right MiLo Minis..., I had one boy that in particular mostly only grew toe for the first two years of his life and not much heel growth until now at 3. Also, I don't agree with paring down the frog like that article describes either, depends on the horse or mini and individual foot condition. None of my boys have ever been trimmed like that and none of them have club feet or heels that turn under and over grow, their frogs are in excellent shape and the feet on my guys look no different than any full sized horse hoof I have ever looked at, just smaller, but appearance and angle looks identical to that of a full sized horse. Perhaps because my guys are B sized and not A's? The article is an interesting guideline, but doesn't apply to any of my three. The only difference is that my farrier sometimes even kneels on the ground to do the trim.


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## Royal Crescent (Nov 23, 2009)

I had a horse that was trimmed in August. The farrier was trying to change the trim to what she would do for a driving horse. I think we changed it too drastically for one trim. He got extremely sore and would not hardly walk, let alone trot. It took forever just to walk him to my trailer, actually had to push and pull! :arg! I gave him banamine a few times over the next few days. My other driving horse got sore also, but not to that extent. I could not work the more lame one for at least a week, but with time he was fine with the new angles. I learned my lesson, that if you are going to change something, you do it gradually!



By the way she is a good farrier, just not the one that was usually doing my horses. She does other driving horses that I know and this was the same kind a trim. My other farrier is does a good, safe trim and does not want to learn anything specific to minis/show horses.

Barb


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## MindyLee (Nov 23, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> Although I agree in general with everything that Frank is saying in that article I would add that each and every horse, large or small, has to be taken as an individual - actually every HOOF needs to be taken as an individual so although you can use that article as a guideline you also need to look at each foot you work on and it's particular needs.


*I TOTALLY AGREE WITH THIS!!! *

*EXAMPLES...*

All 7 of my minis have different hoof styles and must be trimmed differently cause of this. I have a stud and mare whos outside back feets grow taller then the insides and need the outsides trimmed more than the inside. Also have a mare who has long skinny rear hoofs with hardly any heals which mostly toe has to be taken, and her front feet have very tall heals and hardly grows in the toes which make her club foot looking so I mostly only take heal and leave the toe and just rasp it to make it look good and it makes the club fook disapear. I have jr mare whos front feet are all heal and needs them to be taken down A LOT but her rear hoofs have no heal and lots of toe so I only trim her toes in the rear and heals in the front to balance her out. And last but not least, I have a mare who has slightly rolled outside rear hoofs so I only lightly nip the roll away and take mostly her inside off to balance her out in the rear end. Her front looks great and is equally trimmed all the way around the hoof. The other 2 rare pretty normal and are easily trimmed on all 4 feet. After a fresh trim YOU can not see any small flaws that my minis have untill it is close to trimming time again and not once after a trim have I noticed any disconfert or lammness on anyone as they all look/feel pretty darn good.





So again, not all feet are the same and must be trimmed a certian way to balance that certian mini out in the end.



ALSO... I dont know if its just me but when everyone here posts photos of their minis, I seem to always look at their feet first to see what type of hoof style they have or what condition they are in... I guess I'm just weird but oh-well...


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## Mominis (Nov 23, 2009)

I am so sorry to hear about your hoof issue. Maybe this is just my obsessive tendancies coming through (lol), but I used to keep a notebook on every horse that I had. Included in that, among quarterly photographs, feed notes, vet notes, average temperatures, work/schooling notes, supplementation notes, allergies, etc., was the farrier information.

I had the angle (and every different angle, down to the exact degree, that we tried with a particular horse) along with that horses shoe type(s), pad (s), shoe weight(s), etc. I found that keeping a notebook took a lot of the guesswork out of problems that would arise. I'm not saying that it fixed everything, but it sure gave us information to refer back to if we ran into an issue. Once you get the little guy back to normal, you may consider noting the angle that the horse looks and feels his best, for future reference. Just a suggestion.


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## Katiean (Nov 23, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> Although I agree in general with everything that Frank is saying in that article I would add that each and every horse, large or small, has to be taken as an individual - actually every HOOF needs to be taken as an individual so although you can use that article as a guideline you also need to look at each foot you work on and it's particular needs.


I agree with this. Out of my 4 horses I have 2 that grow toe and not much heel, one that grows heel and not much toe and one that grows even.


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## HorseMom (Nov 23, 2009)

Vet had something come up so he's coming tomorrow. This is just a vet friend who is going to take a look. I couldn't get to the farm before dark so no pictures, will try again tomorrow. He is still pretty sore, poor guy. I did order the issue of American Farrier Journal with the Mini Horse article. And I agree, every horse is different, but I still think that the article will be informative and have a good guideline. I'm hoping that the farrier and I can work this out. He's still not helpful and won't even consider that he made a mistake. *rolls eyes*


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## Margaret (Nov 24, 2009)

I have been doing some new clients lately and trimmed a 2 year old filly that had very long heels .

Poor thing was trimmed wrong for most of her life it seemed.. The lady that owned her had no clue that her angles were way off, and her heels had become contracted due to that. The filly is showing promising improvement with proper regular trims now and the lady is amazed at how much better she looks.

Sometimes a different farrier is all you need to see and correct a problem.


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## HorseMom (Nov 24, 2009)

Ok. I finally got pictures of all four feet. Jay's doesn't seem to be lame in his hind end, just his front. His hind feet don't look too bad. I lunged him twice around again today to see how he was, still very lame and short strided in the front.

Jay's Right Front







Jay's Left Front






Jay's Left Hind






Jay's Right Hind


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## MindyLee (Nov 24, 2009)

:arg! :arg! :arg! :arg! :arg! :arg! :arg!

AWWWWWWWWWWWW!!! Oh WOW do his front feet look nasty! _(sorry)_

OH poor boy and I can totally see why he's in such pain on them fronts, specialy that left.

Wow I see why you are so upset. I would be too looking at thoses feet that look like that. That is way worse then I was imagining, and wow do you have a long time before he grows out long enough to get them fixed. Poor guy!!! You can even see in his old posted jumping photo (which I have seen in the past) the difference in lenght... wow Im soooo sorry for both you and him! I speechless, not impressed, and disgusted.

The hind right is by far the nicest...


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## zoey829 (Nov 24, 2009)

Ugh! I am sooo sorry.



HorseMom said:


> I've been having a problem with farriers and owning mini horses. The majority seem to think that they are just pets and don't take their trims seriously. The last one decided that he was going to completely change Jay's angle without discussing it with me first. Jay is dead lame, and this is a horse that has never been lame. Jay looks like he has four club feet when he really doesn't. I hate to see Jay so uncomfortable. I sent an e-mail to the farrier to ask him what I should do to make it easier for him until the feet grow back. I was very nice in the e-mail and tried to sound like I wasn't blaming him. He got very defensive and told me that it wasn't him, that Jay must have gotten hurt when I worked him over the weekend. I didn't work him until this morning and only did a short lunge because it was obvious that he was lame. I did lunge him before the trim on Friday, he'll stand better once that excess energy is burned off. The farrier said that Jay should have been lame right off the bat if it was the trim. Is that true? He also said that he didn't hit pink or get blood and that's the only way a horse would be lame after a trim. I don't think that's true. I just want to have all my ducks in a row before I send him another e-mail. I've also called the vet that boards at the farm to see if he could take a look just in case it is something else.
> 
> 
> 
> I've had to stop Jay's training, this is going to be a huge set back in our CDE training. The good news is I'll have lots of time to work on clicker training Jay.


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## Margaret (Nov 24, 2009)

Too bad his fronts couldnt have been trimmed more like his back ones.

I would give this boy time to grow his front toes out..It looks as if he might be feeling too much toe pressure.

Also perhaps some of that front toe pressure might be relieved by dropping the front heels some, _if there is any room left to do so._

The weight of the horse should be mostly on the heels, and back frog.

So sorry this happened, but hopefully he will be fine with some time and rest.

Soft bedding will help for now too to give him pressure relief.

Once he grows out more, the angles can be properly corrected.


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## Katiean (Nov 24, 2009)

His back don't look too bad. However, yes, I can see where he would be sore on the front feet. It looks like her isn't even got a flat surface on his front feet. What was the farrier thinking? Hoe can he think he did a good job for you? I am always there when my horses are done and I always ask questions if I don't like what they are doing.


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## HorseMom (Nov 24, 2009)

I was there for this, but it was too late once I noticed that the feet were all wrong. The farrier wasn't very talkative and I was a bit distracted trying to keep Jay from biting the guy. (He's always had a biting problem, we're working on it and seen improvement). I feel like such a bad momma for letting this happen right under my nose.


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## Margaret (Nov 24, 2009)

Dont feel too bad, you didnt know.. Jay was just trying to tell the guy to not trim him so short..

It also looks like the farrier was trying to give him a mustang roll on the front tip of his front hooves.. ( thus the roll)

That can be a good idea when the toe is longer, so that it helps with turn over.

In this case though it was not applicable.


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## Jetiki (Nov 25, 2009)

Those look really short, however I have one when trimmed right are that short looking. If it were my horse I'd be duct taping some pads to his feet for some cushion. Same principal idea of the foundered horse pads, not saying this horse has foundered just using the idea of the pads for pain/pressure relief.

karen


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## Carolyn R (Nov 25, 2009)

The back actually look good, the front looks like there is way too much toe taken off and they are at a steep angle, so it looks with that much toe taken off.

Fronts can be tricky sometimes, if the heel is taken too low, the hoof grows out into a dinner plate (toe flares out as it grows), if the toe is too short and too much heel is left, it throws the leg off (think of wearing high heels and where it places your ankle over your foot, its not natural, its uncomfortable and it throws your balance off).

At this point, you can try the duct tape if he is ouchy, otherwise (unless he is in pain) try to let it grow out a bit before you touch them.

I would just suggest that your farrier just trim off the naturally occuring excess hoof rather than reshaping it next time (or just get a new farrier). I think they are afraid of telling us "hey the fronts don't need much, I'm just gonna rasp it this time and clean up the sole", in fear that we'll think they don't deserve the pay.

Many of the mini owners out there have grown tired of poor trims or unreliable ferriers and have taken it upon themselves to do their own trims (including myself, great ferrier, just got too many clients, taught me himself). My ferrier is a great guy and is on standby if I should need him for an issue, this works best for both of us.


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## alphahorses (Nov 25, 2009)

shorthorsemom said:


> I just changed farriers and one of the new guys was saying "You have to leave the heel really long on these little guys..."


I see a LOT of minis (and shetlands) at shows with heels that are much much too long. No only does the angulation cause unnatural stress on the legs (just as it does for women when they wear high heels), but it is a major reason why so many minis have club-like feet. And because long heels prevent the frog from reaching the ground and aiding in circulation of blood through the hoof, high heels also contribute to founder and other hoof problems.





"No hoof, no horse" is still a true statement, and a farrier should take trimming hooves on ANY horse seriously. I am fortunate - my farrier is a certified master farrier, and he takes everything from my pasture orament to my show horses just as seriously as he takes the $100K dressage horses that he works on!


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 25, 2009)

The right back foot has a good angle and is quite healthy - nice trim.

The left back foot I am seeing quite a bit of flare and wrong angle - bad trim.

The left front foot has a fairly good angle but I am seeing flare on the toe that should have been rasped off, not just the mustang roll you see but removal of the flare above that - bad trim.

The right front foot has way too much toe removed, he can't stand flat on it, you can see air under it. This is no doubt where the pain is coming from. The angle won't be bad as long as only his heel is rasped for the next trim and the toe is allowed to grow. Unfortunately there is no quick fix here, you are going to have to wait for the toe to grow out as there doesn't appear to be enough hoof there to take his heel down to relieve the pressure but a photo of the bottom of the hoof would be helpful.

3 of 4 feet - bad trim = bad farrier

I seriously recommend you look for a new farrier if this one has not even come out to see if he can help the little guy out any. Even if he doesn't think he is the cause of it (which he IS) he should be willing to come have a look at him too see if he can help.


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## gvpalominominis (Nov 25, 2009)

I'll be the first to admit that I am not a professional farrier.... however... I trim ALL of my 20 mini horses feet regularly for about the past 5 years and have done a tremendous amount of research in order to be able to do it correctly, safely and the way I like them done.

Sometimes, you just get sore feet... some horses are more sensitive... you learn which ones are more sensitive and trim accordingly. I'd like to see the whole horse.... not just the foot... and the under side of the hoof. If the space around the frog is evenly trimmed... it is typically the correct size hoof for the horse. if the horse is stepped up or not squared... you can't always evaluate the angle of the hoof. This farrier at least took the time to shape the feet and give the horse some toe roll over.... that I do myself to the rear hoofs for some. Did the farrier walk the horse to see how it moved with its trim? I don't think the angles are all that bad on this trim. It also depends on what the farrier had to start with.... if the hoof had gone a little longer before being trimmed... it would cause flair in the hoof and set the angle of the hoofs off and it would take more than one trim to correct it. Belive me... if I had to pay to have my herd done by a farrier every 8 weeks... it would cost me $5,600 a year! (They charge $35 per horse - same as the bigs)

What I have found with most farriers is that they don't spend the time they do on the bigs with shaping the hoof. And as many of you have mentioned... they usually put too steep of an angle on the hoof and I also find they make them too rounded looking. You have to trim to fit the individual horse and hoof.

Have any farrier's responded to this thread?

I ran across a product the other day that was a fast setting rubber material that could not only be used as a "shoe" but could also be used to add heel to foals and older horses to help with some corrections. Some horses grow heel faster, some grow toe faster. But I thought this might be a product I'd like to try. I'll see if I can find where I saw the product.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 25, 2009)

I would agree that some horses go sore at the touch of a rasp, I have had horses like that, where a simple, normal trim would send them lame if you went one rasp too far, but I don't think that is the case here, these feet have been mangled!!

For a start the angles are completely different, for no discernible reason, between the front and the back.

The front right, as Milo has said, is completely wrong.

Why do farriers do this??

It seems to be a common failing in the horse world at large that they just lose their marbles when it comes to dealing with Minis.

I have had a respected Judge say to me, in the ring "How do I judge these little ones?" (I was the steward) and I had to think of something polite to say, very quickly.

They Are HORSES it is not rocket science, if you can pare a barefoot big horses (and a lot of farriers can't, BTW) then you can pare a barefoot Mini.

My Farrier taught me, in self defense of his back, forty years ago, and I have been going ever since. Some grow too much heel, some grow too much toe, this is normal throughout the equine world, it is not confined to Minis.

Vets too, just lose it. I heard my Vet say to a student who came with him to geld, "These little ones take twice as much sedative as the big ones...." He only got that far before I was tersely correcting him (I also changed my Vet pretty quickly!)

If you can get hold of Cornucrescine, use it, it works, it really does, it will help grow the hoof in much shorter time, and you will also have lovely nails!!!!

I do hope your little one is back to normal soon, I would really be looking for a new farrier.....


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 25, 2009)

gvpalominominis said:


> Have any farrier's responded to this thread?


I am a farrier Joanne!



I have seen far too many Minis with similar problems. Either the farrier is just not good at his job which I suspect in this instance or they just don't care enough about Minis thinking they are not actually going to be used for anything. I wrote an article hoping to educate some owners to help the horses, it is posted on my website for anyone that would care to read it. If we educate ourselves we can help the farriers to know what we need and want for our horse's feet.


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## gvpalominominis (Nov 25, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> gvpalominominis said:
> 
> 
> > Have any farrier's responded to this thread?
> ...



Awwh. = ) Now I know someone to ask questions to...



Well I guess just as in anything... you can always agree to disagree... LOL LOL You are very right.... you should work with your farrier I just think in this case it is not very fair to evaluate or condemn this farrier, without seeing the before foot and the whole horse... IMO I've also witnessed how one person looks and perceives an angle and how another may have a different perspective - right brain/left brain thing maybe. Regardless.... bravo to HorseMom for having the horses feet trimmed and caring how they turned out!





Doesn't it look like he filed off the front toe as if they had shoes on? Weird... but I still say the angle of the hoof to the pastern isn't bad. = )

I found that rubber stuff.... it was called "Sole-Guard" and "Super Fast" and I found it in Ozark Mountains sales catalog.


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## HorseMom (Nov 25, 2009)

Thankfully my trainer's farrier, who is well known for being an awesome farrier, is willing to make the 2 hour trek to teach me how to trim my own horses. All the really good farriers in my area will not take anymore clients, no matter what. I understand that, they want a life outside of work as much as the next person. The farrier that did this trim won't answer any of my e-mails anymore, nor will he come out to take a look at him or give me advise on what I can do to make him feel better. i knew it was the trim that made Jay lame, but the e-mail I sent the farrier did not blame him for the lameness. I didn't want to attack him. He should have discussed with me about changing the angle of his feet before taking any off. I thought he was just going to give him a quick trim. The guy did get immediately defensive. Jay's previous owner lives at the farm that I board at and she said that he's never been lame. She's had him since he was a yearling. I've had him for over 2 years and he's never been lame. He gets his feet trimmed every 8 weeks whether he needs it or not, my mare needs her's done every 8 on the dot or she starts to crumble. This guy that came out was my third farrier this year, the first one to do a bad job. The others just never returned calls or never showed up to appointments, all the more reason for me to learn to do it myself. Here are some pictures of Jay driving, please excuse his head set and mohawk. These are the only fairly recent pictures that I have of him pre-trim.


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## Margaret (Nov 25, 2009)

I trimmed this boy of mine a week or two ago, and wanted to share with you what angle my stallion is comfortable with for a pasture trim. _front hoof_

Please excuse the dirt and the hairy legs, lol

He of course manage to chip off the front tip of his hoof _just for this picture_, but you get the idea of the angle.

When they are not trimmed too short, then there is still room for some mild dishing of the sole, which also relieves some stress..


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## HGFarm (Nov 26, 2009)

I have seen more 'farriers' here think that Mini feet are supposed to look like donkey feet, or worse, and leave them standing straight up and down.

Havent read the whole post, so you might have a handle on it by now, but my suggestion is to have your vet take a look or have another farrier that is recommended come and take a look. It sounds like all the toe was cut off, leaving the heel if they are clubby looking. That heel needs to come off!! Wonder if he has trimmed the toes too short also down to the quick to take it off?

Good grief. I have seen a lot of shoeing problems with 'farriers', or those that claim to be one, on big horses too, but the Minis seem to get it much worse for some reason.


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## Katiean (Dec 5, 2009)

I talked to my farrier about your horse when she was here. She said that if your horse had a normal angle and then your farrier put him on his toes, Yes he was sore from what your farrier did even though it took 2 days. She also said that he could cause him to founder. She said it is very important to take the heel down as far as you can to get that angle back. She is very well trained in pony's and minis as that is what the school she went to starts them on. She is always doing competitions and for their Christmas party they (their group) are having a competition where they have to trim a mini, hand forge shoes for the mini and attach the shoes. So I know if I ever really have a problem that will require a shoe, she can take care of it. Although what she was telling me about it didn't sound like a party to me.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 5, 2009)

HorseMom said:


> Jay's Right Front


Oh, my, poor Jay!! No wonder he's lame! :arg! I would definitely look into building up the front of that foot with some Vettec SuperFast to get him back at the right angles and take the pressure off that toe while it grows out. Kody's old farrier was very good, very reliable, and did super balanced, correct trims but he was another one who tried to blame it on the mini when the trim caused soreness. He refused to consider that maybe this individual horse was a tenderfoot and needed his entire foot left a little longer with each trim and when I tried to politely request that he do so he threw up his hands and quit on the spot.



I made my request after he came up pavement-lame just before a major trip to Fresno, CA I'd been planning for months and it almost cost us the entire competition. Thankfully we were saved that time because Breanna Sheahan was there and made a set of glue shoes from SuperFast which solved Kody's lameness immediately and by the time they fell off weeks later he'd grown out enough to be comfortable. Our new farrier is not as good as the old one but she LISTENS and when I say something isn't right she comes back out free of charge and fixes it.



I've become confident enough with experience to say something before she leaves which saves us both stress



but I sure do appreciate her attitude and willingness to make it right.

I've got a youngster now who really needs his feet properly trimmed every four weeks and I've finally given in and picked up a rasp myself since I can't afford to have the farrier out that often. I feel kind of silly since it turns out it's pretty darn easy to square off hind toes and I could have been making Kody's stifles more comfortable and extending the time between trims for the last five years, but better late than never I guess! I hope you're able to get Jay back on track and find a decent farrier to keep him there. The one you've got sounds like a dud!

Leia


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## krissy3 (Dec 5, 2009)

Please use "THE FARRIER AND HOOFCARE RESOURCE CENTER" for some help, they do take minis seriously, and will help you locate a professional farrier in your area, its a HUGE forum...I got a lot of help even here in Europe , its an international site, and guarentee they will help you no matter where you live. That trim is extream, and I would bet he will be lame for at least 1 month. I wouldnt do anything to him work wise , just let him relieve himself in sand, or bedding for a while. You have what looks like a Donkey pedistal trim... wrong equine trim...ouch , time for a new farrier. So sorry


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## zoey829 (Dec 5, 2009)

Ugh!!! I feel so bad for that little guy!


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## Genie (Dec 5, 2009)

HorseMom said:


> Thankfully my trainer's farrier, who is well known for being an awesome farrier, is willing to make the 2 hour trek to teach me how to trim my own horses. All the really good farriers in my area will not take anymore clients, no matter what. I understand that, they want a life outside of work as much as the next person. The farrier that did this trim won't answer any of my e-mails anymore, nor will he come out to take a look at him or give me advise on what I can do to make him feel better. i knew it was the trim that made Jay lame, but the e-mail I sent the farrier did not blame him for the lameness. I didn't want to attack him. He should have discussed with me about changing the angle of his feet before taking any off. I thought he was just going to give him a quick trim. The guy did get immediately defensive. Jay's previous owner lives at the farm that I board at and she said that he's never been lame. She's had him since he was a yearling. I've had him for over 2 years and he's never been lame. He gets his feet trimmed every 8 weeks whether he needs it or not, my mare needs her's done every 8 on the dot or she starts to crumble. This guy that came out was my third farrier this year, the first one to do a bad job. The others just never returned calls or never showed up to appointments, all the more reason for me to learn to do it myself. Here are some pictures of Jay driving, please excuse his head set and mohawk. These are the only fairly recent pictures that I have of him pre-trim.


From this picture "pre trim" it is pretty easy to see why he's sore now. He seems to have quite a bit of hoof and heel in this picture.

The after trim pictures have one front foot looking "scary bad" in my opinion. Overall, before and after pics are a pretty drastic change.


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## HorseMom (Dec 5, 2009)

A highly respected farrier is going to try to come out tomorrow to take a look at Jay. He mentioned perhaps packing the hoof, but it all depends on what he sees when he gets to the farm. I'm hoping he can make it tomorrow. If not he said that he would try to reschedule as soon as possible so we could help Jay out. Luckily the mud in his paddock helps. He doesn't seem to limp out there and seems more himself.


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## TaylorMarie (Dec 5, 2009)

HorseMom said:


> Ok. I finally got pictures of all four feet. Jay's doesn't seem to be lame in his hind end, just his front. His hind feet don't look too bad. I lunged him twice around again today to see how he was, still very lame and short strided in the front.
> Jay's Right Front
> 
> 
> ...




Wow!!!! No wonder he is lame!!! I am going to guess more so on the right front!!!! you need to fire this farrier!!! he had taken way too much toe off and to boot he rolled the toe way to much!!! You are going to have to wait a couple weeks if not more for him to be sound again (the shorter the trim the less the hoof will grow) it also appears the heels are too short too leaving the poor little guy with nothing to stand on.

I am horrified to see this as it gives all farrier a bad name regarding minis!

you are going to have to keep him on super soft footing for awhile as it appears all he is standing on is the sole at the tip of the coffin bone (not good)

I hope he will be ok

Taylor Hildebrand

(farrier)


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## yellerroseintx (Dec 6, 2009)

I also had a bad experience..I took a chance on a well known 'mini' farrier, something I willl NEVER EVER EVER do again..anyway..out of 10 horses...9 were lame....5 so bad they barely moved out of their stalls. for a week and eggshells after that...one mare layed down most 0f 3 days ..they stood stretched out like foundered horses.everyone hobbling around and looking at me.... I was crushed that I had caused them all such pain..needless to say I freaked out ..My Vet gave me Banamine and a wonderful product to use..called SOLE PAINT...you wear gloves and put it on their soles..it did help...also you can wrap them in Vet Tape to ease the bruising...they were done Nov 8th and just last week my foundered mare has stopped walking on eggshells...this was a sad learning experience for me kick kick kick


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## mizbeth (Dec 6, 2009)

I am sorry this happened to your little horse. I had a farrier once that trimmed mine too short too. All of them, each time he came. But of course I did not use him after the second time this happened. He just trimmed them too short, into the pink line, the angles were good. But in any case they should have not been lame. and took them several days to be able to walk normally. I really think he could not see very well.

My Vets have always recommended BUTE for hoof soreness. (Over banamine). I can buy small amounts of Bute tablets, not the entire bottle. I rarely use Bute for obvious reasons so don't need a whole bottle of it.

Good luck with him. It does appear his front toes are too short. His heal height is about the same as in the pre farrier photos, he probably just trimmed too close to the pink line. Wierd angles on the front tho., the rolling as you call it. Not sure what that was for unless the horse did not travel straight, or winged or paddled when he walked?

B


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## HorseMom (Dec 6, 2009)

I had a different farrier come out today. He just came to take a look to see how bad and if we had to do anything special. He was shocked when he saw Jay's feet. This guy was very nice and seemed very knowledgeable. He took the time to tell me about angles and give examples. He checked Jay's sole and said that they were very soft which he doesn't like. The last farrier took too much sole out. He also checked Jay's tendons to make sure he was ok. He did tell me to watch his tendons and if anything changes for the worse to immediately let him know. He also has me putting Kopertox to help harden the sole. Told me to only do it 2 days a week and not to get it on Jay's hair. He did not charge me for the visit. Told me I really got boned on that last trim so he wouldn't charge me. He didn't trim Jay at all just looked and felt around.

I did make an appointment with him for the end of Feb. He wants Jay's feet to grow out in their natural way. He said that mother nature usually knows best, he wants to see Jay's natural angle before we do any work. He was very happy that I left him out in the mud and snow instead of bringing him into a stall. Said the soft ground will certainly help relieve Jay's ouchies and help support him better. I left him out there because he didn't limp at all in his paddock and seemed more himself. As soon as I bring him into the barn he starts limping from the hard ground.

I did lunge Jay a couple times around to see how he was feeling. He limps a little but is quickly becoming more himself. Jay's the kind of horse that needs regular work or he's a real #%^&. And that is what he is right now. I love this horse to death and normally work him 5 days a week and he's great. He needs to keep him mind busy to stay happy. Not being able to work has made us both grumpy. Hopefully by the end of the month we can go back to work. We'll have to start slow to get him back into the swing of things.

Overall I'm happy that Jay is on the mend and feeling better. Thanks everyone for all the great information and stories of similar situations. Makes me feel a little better that I'm not the only one who has had to deal with something like this.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 6, 2009)

That's great Heather! I know what you mean about horses who are little %@$#'s if not kept mentally busy. You might try teaching him some tricks or introducing him to clicker training during this time so he has something to think about. It worked for Kody during all his surgical rehab in '07/'08.

Leia


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## bevann (Dec 6, 2009)

There is also another wonderful product for tender feet.It is called VENICE TURPENTINE and available at many feed and tack shops.Just paint it on the sole and inside on the wall of the hoof with an old toothbrush.It makes them feel better within a day.We have used it here many times.good luck with your little guy.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 7, 2009)

HorseMom said:


> I did make an appointment with him for the end of Feb. He wants Jay's feet to grow out in their natural way. He said that mother nature usually knows best, he wants to see Jay's natural angle before we do any work.


You need to keep a close eye on his feet between now and then because with the trim that he has his feet may NOT grow out in their "natural way" as his angles have been so severely changed. If they are not looking right to you give him a call before February. Feet do tend to grow slower at this time of year in our hemisphere but that may be too long to let him go.

I would prefer to see you use venice turpentine as well, it is a better product for toughening the sole.


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## HorseMom (Dec 8, 2009)

I'll look for the venice turpentine tomorrow. Thanks.


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