# Organic! No such thing, or do you believe yes?



## MindyLee (Apr 18, 2012)

OK

I work at a local tractor store, (TSC) and have folks coming in and asking for organtic feeds and such. I always laugh cause I say there is no such thing as the ground will always have something in it or whatever is the product has been ran through a machine that has been cleaned with a chemical of some sorts. I feel those who grow organic, grow weeds...

Do you believe in organic or agree with me that there is no such thing...


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## bevann (Apr 18, 2012)

There is no such thing as TRUE ORGANIC unless you happen to live in a very remote area of the mountains in an area that had not been touched by civilization.I live in Delaware and there are lots of people around here claiming"organic".Like Mindy says there is stuff in the ground.If you raise organic livestock and buy feed anywhere there it goes.Pastures are fertilized etc.I tried to do somewhat organic and the weeds usually win.I vote NO TRUE ORGANIC.I think it is just a sales pitch so people will buy .


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## MountainWoman (Apr 18, 2012)

I live in Vermont and to have certified organic farm land is quite a process and we also have local feed mills that have certified organic feed. Not sure about other states though and whether certifying land organic is less arduous than it is here in Vermont. Anyway, you can have true organic products here but you are going to pay dearly for it and is it worth it when you're talking about poultry feed, etc.? That's the question to me.


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## Shari (Apr 18, 2012)

Yes, there is true organic food and animal feed. And yes, they are quite spendy, but when you are allergic to pesticides...

You do have to be careful, because there are some places that will say they are organic, charge more... but they are truly not.

How do I know... is how my body reacts and this tells me if something is really Organic.. Ie no pesticides and so on.

I follow the Oregon Tilth.

http://tilth.org/


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## MindyLee (Apr 18, 2012)

I understand if a field in the middle of the mountains was turned into a organic field, would it still be considered organic if the tractor plowing the field had a oil leak or was washed with soap before entering the field? How would ya ever know? I just dont buy it... Plus any product MUST be washed in something that has been washed & starlized in chemicals at one point of time or another...


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## susanne (Apr 19, 2012)

Would you prefer that it be called "as organic as is humanly possible?"

No matter what the degree of purity, it's still a vast improvement over the crap the big, commercial food industry tries to force us to eat.

As for the food itself, I appreciate Shari relating her first-hand experience with her own body's reaction to organic and non-organic foods. That is evidence from where the term really matters -- our bodies.


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## ohmt (Apr 19, 2012)

In your terms, nothing would be organic-not even up in the mountains (acid rain!), but I have to agree with Susanne.

Organic means it's grown without any synthetic fertilizers or pesticides, so I take that as meaning grown naturally, with whatever may be in the soil already, without the farmer adding the previously mentioned. Lots of organic foods out there




Also, is soap really a concern for you? Soap has absolutely no ill effects on humans, but kills 99% of bacteria. It does not fall under a pesticide or fertilizer anyway so it doesn't matter, does not change "organic" status. I guess I am more concerned with what gets brought INTO the plants while they are growing. On the outside doesn't matter-i wash all of my food anyway. It's the chemicals that get into the food that concern me and organic food really reduces my possible intake of that.


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## MindyLee (Apr 19, 2012)

No soap is no big deal, I just wondered if its still organic. I guess it just had to be 100% free from anything to be concidered.

Oh boy Shari, that would suck to be you as sooo much stuff has pesticides on it! Inluding most lawns! Sorry that you have this.

I guess I was more on this about it, to me seems like a gimick to get more $$$ for a product when something is not truely organic like mentioned above. I walk by the veggy area in super markets and see all the veggies being mist on and always think, is there something in that mist to help presurve the veggies cause if so, there goes the organic in them!

I more then less was wondering if there was others that feel the same as I do.

Thanks!


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## Carolyn R (Apr 19, 2012)

What you may think of as organic and what the government deems to be organic may be two different standards. With that said, there ae strict guidelines and inspections by USDA inspectors on facilities, processing, and packaging of organics sold on your grocers shelves. Yes, any facility will have USDA inspectors there to oversee and observe how a item is being processed, ESP. Meat and poultry, but the guidelines for organic start with the feed for these animals......how was it grown, how is it processed, is there anything that would disqualify it as being organic feed, then from there the next stage and the next. Now, free range organic, organic, antibiotic free, these are all different classifications that have different sets of regulations to allow them to be labeled as such.

These are not the same standards that stand at your farmers markets have there is much less government intervention there.

Long story short, if you want to know what exactly is done with your food start to finish, the only true way is to do it yourself, but when your buying items on your grocer's shelves, there are USDA inspectors that do need to follow stringent guidelines In order to put that label on it. ......Kosher poultry, I can give you some insight on that too, EVEN STRICTER guidelines.

My husband has worked in the poultry business for many years, everything from turkeys, to chickens, to running organic chickens, now he is at a facility that runs kosher chickens, ducks, and turkeys. The processing must not only follow USDA guidelines, but must also follow their religious guidelines, I find it all very interesting.


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## Bess Kelly (Apr 19, 2012)

Buying organic can be expensive -- and an issue for those like Shari, for all the reasons above. Personally, I like to attempt to eat with as few additional chemicals and preservatives as possible. While not "truly and certified" as organic, my veggies are not sprayed with chemicals as I attempt to use as much/many "organic" controls as I can, composted manures, soap sprays, companion planting, beneficial insects, etc. Perfect? Nope. But still better than the unknowns.

Our soils, water, etc., often have or are unintentionally contaminated with various "things" in nature. Hard to be perfect. But I would love to see as much control as possible used. The cropland chemicals used to control insects is not good, IMO. But farmers are looking for the better bottom line for market -- esp the huge corp world ones.

Guess we all just need to TRY to control what we can. I don't use medicated feeds, attempt to use weed/pest control methods that are better than chems, buy frozen not canned veggies, etc. Reducing our exposure is far, far better than doing nothing.

Plus, it is often the most we can truly do. It's like being pro-active with our health in general, 2nd dr opinions, alternative meds, no smoking zones, exercising regularly, limiting portions, and on and on and ON.



Lotta work!


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## Norah (Apr 19, 2012)

Organic is called Bio here , and we do have it . Farms are fertelized with pig poop . The pigs are organic , and have to be fed organic feed . Antibiotics are not allowed, if the goat or lamb or pig is sick its left in a basket for the vet to kill it , no pain pills allowed ...harsh , but free of chemicles . Most of us grow our own veggies, we can buy Bio veggies , but they are expensive , and filled with lovely critters . the bio meat is also expensive , the farmers are regulated on a monthy basis , and have to feed clean organic feed. Most of the farmers in our village are BIO farmers . The only thing i notice between the American meat and the Swiss is that American beef is very bloody , and ours is not . Our meat is not red like the american beef , and our cows are fed grass not corn so less fat . The US meat use to make my gums itch , or feel "wierd"....dont know why , maybe the artificial coloring agent...The US beef has more flavor then the Swiss beef , the Swiss pork has more flavor then the US pork . We dont have Turkeys here in Switzerland , and dont sell a lot of whole chickens . We eat veal , beef and pork.


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## Carolyn R (Apr 19, 2012)

MindyLee said:


> No soap is no big deal, I just wondered if its still organic. I guess it just had to be 100% free from anything to be concidered.
> 
> Oh boy Shari, that would suck to be you as sooo much stuff has pesticides on it! Inluding most lawns! Sorry that you have this.
> 
> ...


Just wanted to add, the misting is to promote shelf life.....AND to increase the weight of leafy greens! There was a time when lettuce, spinach and leafy greens were sold by the head or the bunch, now it is sold by the pound. Hydrating them increases weight, thus increasing cost and profit. How many times have you picked up a head of romaine and had to shake it out prior to putting it in one of those plastic sleeves?


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## Carriage (Apr 19, 2012)

I would vote no as well. For all the reasons listed and more. Bio Ag firms are a primary reason why as well as the stuff sprayed in our air in the upper atmosphere. Even that remote mountain hill cannot truly be considered a purely "organic place".

If the grain you use to feed your animals or self is anywhere downwind of a Monsanto grown genetic crop, you can't possibly be truly organic.

I do agree that definitions should be defined and also agree that growing as much of your own stuff as possible puts you closest to being truly organic.

Heard on a program one day," GMO's are the same as hybridized seed". The sad thing is, people actually believe this.


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## Carriage (Apr 19, 2012)

Oh , and just read this A.M. that Monsanto has bought the leading bee collapse research firm. Now why would they do that? Must be all the huge profits that go hand in hand with a "research" firm....


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## susanne (Apr 19, 2012)

Speaking of growing your own food, I find this video (along with the Dervais family website and blog) to be inspirational. On a standard city lot, they produce most of their own food and trade for what they cannot. Even if you are fine with buying all that you eat, this is still fascinating. We are nowhere near living sustainably, but we try to take one step at a time.


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## Shari (Apr 20, 2012)

Add with the allergy to pesticides, allergy to Nickle, which means there is a whole list of foods I can't eat, and I can't eat anything from can's either.

Plus I can have no more than 800mg of salt a day in my diet, I am also allergic to cow dairy... means If I want to eat, I have to make it.

When you have allergies, one has to pay attention to how ones food is grown, to feel good.

You learn in great detail how to find foods you can eat.

Needless to say, going out to eat or eating other folks food is out.

As for GMO... they are monster foods, and nature would never ever be able to create them. And in no way is it like Hybrids!


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## Norah (Apr 20, 2012)

I would have to agree that there is no such thing as "comercial" organic feeds or food in USA . I would say only a small privately owned farm has the ability to slip under the goverments toxic radar : (


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## Shari (Apr 20, 2012)

That is why finding and buying from small family farms that raise food to your standards is important. Or growing your own. I am starting over again here and it will be another year before I will grow most of my fruit, veggies and have my own eggs.


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 20, 2012)

I think a risk as great as whether something is organic is the genetically engineered foods. Corn is a horrible grain now, not like the staple of the old days. It is nothing but filler now. The engineered foods are for mass production--never mind if they supply any nutrition.

And how about all the hormones injected to make Bigger and Better? They might be considered "organic" but it is certainly unnatural.

We have a local company that offers organic beef. They raise their own barley and oats; the cattle are grass fed. It is a highly monitored industry. If a calf gets sick and needs antibiotic, it must go into a different feedlot than the organic animals.

Here in rural OK, not much organic fresh produce available. We are trying to grow our own, but it isn't easy. It is actually harder with a small garden than a large garden. 12 square feet of strawberries doesn't give much leeway for crop failure--to go out and find the beautiful berries on my plants overnight hollowed out is pretty discouraging! A nice mist of malathion would solve that--what a temptation!


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## ohmt (Apr 20, 2012)

I really think people are thinking too much into this.

The definition that I grabbed from dictionary.com is what I posted earlier. The other two definitions are of course for organic chemistry and basic life (anything living is organic). So these foods that are grown without the pesticides and chemicals ARE organic, they just are not what some of you would like as organic. They are grown as absolutely natural as possible at this point in time. I think there are probably more "organic beef" farms than you think. My university runs one and they went organic because the government paid them too. I am sure many others went organic for the same reason. Same with the dairy barn here. I am less worried about the hormone added to dairy to produce more milk. It's a natural hormone that the cows already produce.

It is great to try to eat as healthy and natural as possible. I do!


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## Carriage (Apr 20, 2012)

As for GMO... they are monster foods, and nature would never ever be able to create them. And in no way is it like Hybrids!

Boy howdy, so true Miss Shari. When I heard our talk boob accept and parrot the Monsanto "guest", when he compared the two, I was thinking, "You gotta be kidding!" Who would believe this? Nature doesn't "gene splice" or make things "round-up ready". However P.T. Barnum was SO correct then and especially today. While I prefer Heirloom seed for it's independence from buying seed every year, there are times when hybrid seed will yield much more and makes more sense. ESPECIALLY if one has a postage stamp size garden.


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## Carriage (Apr 20, 2012)

Norah said:


> I would have to agree that there is no such thing as "comercial" organic feeds or food in USA . I would say only a small privately owned farm has the ability to slip under the goverments toxic radar : (


Yes Miss Nora, when one takes all of the toxins into account, I think this is a true statement.

The small privately owned farm (and business, I would add) is under attack and in danger of extinction. This is why I have decided and constantly "preach" that my money goes there and I WILL support only these folk and families. As I am rather un-fond of bullies, I find my self drawn to support and defend their victims. We will always outnumber the bullies and should do everything in our power to support the backbone of our communities and country. In the end they are cowards for if they were not "they" would not gang up on the singular and defenseless.

Support you local farmer and business.


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## disneyhorse (Apr 22, 2012)

I believe that the non-organic farming allows for treated human waste to be used as soil and fertilizer for crops. The sludge IS treated but it still is kinda gross...


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## susanne (Apr 23, 2012)

Actually, humanure is a big topic in the sustainable living world. Personally, it grosses me out, too, and we will not be going there. I wouldn't mind having a composting toilet, but the resulting stuff is NOT going on my food!


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## stormy (Apr 23, 2012)

Okay so what exactly do you consider organic? If you buy produce from your local farm there is no guarantee that that producer has not used the same pesticides, herbicides and chemical fertilizers and seed as the "factory farm". Also if you are using manure as fertilizer, animal or human, you are adding antibiotics, antiparasitics and hormones, natural and otherwise to the soil. There are also areas were soils contain natural toxins such as selenium in quantities that are higher then what is considered safe so what makes one better then the other??? Not to mention the fact birds, rabbits and rodents are running around pooping on everything everywhere in the field and out of it!!

We grow our own vegetables, are they organic? They certainly are home grown but fertilized with manure from domestic horses eating commercial feed and receiving all the vaccines and antiparasitics appropriate for their good health.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 23, 2012)

Stormy you bring up a very good point, we fertilize our garden with manure from yrs past, till it in, then spread lime, till it in, then plant. We don't use pesticide, only joy mixed with water, we use tin foil plates attached to poles to keep birds and squirrels out, but I still find them about. We try to grow as organic as possable, for our own use, but you hit the nail on the head. No way can we keep all the critters out, and yes our horses, that supply us with the manure, have been wormed and vaccinated, go figure, thanks for the education, I thought we were growing organic, guess we aren't.


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## susanne (Apr 23, 2012)

...and that is why you would NOT be certified organic. It's also why they are so particular about who calls themselves organic, and why it is illegal to do so without the certification. Those following practices such as Stormy mentioned WOULD NOT be certified organic. It's not some vague term that just anyone can use.

We use no herbicides or pesticides on our property, but, like Riverrose, we do worm the horses, and nobody is fed organic feed. We refer to our eggs, as free-range, pasture-fed, natural, etc., etc., but they ARE NOT organic. Most people are happy if they know the chickens live a good, happy life and do not live in tiny cages. Eating grass and other plantlife is what makes the difference in taste (and the great orange yolks).

It's all good, but it's NOT organic.


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## Shari (Apr 24, 2012)

You need to know the Farmer you are buying from. The ones I bought from, knew my allergies and I never, ever had an health issues. If they lied, I would of ended up in the hospital.

If a person doesn't believe things can be Organic, that is your choice. But I know it is possible.

For those farms that are Oregon Tilth or Certified Organic, they go through a very long process 5 to 7 years, depending on the State, spend a lot of money of having their soil and water tested and so on, to be able to call themselves Certified Organic.

For my health, I will continue buying Certified Organic food.


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## Sue_C. (Apr 25, 2012)

> *By Laura Pickett Pottorff, Colorado State University Cooperative Extension horticulturist and plant pathologist*If we think organic gardening means vegetables free of any chemical pesticides, we don't have the story quite right.


http://www.colostate.edu/Dept/CoopExt/4dmg/VegFruit/organic.htm

Another "organic thing" that makes me wonder...is the use of bone and blood meal. These products originate in slaughter houses, and you can bet your bottom dollar that they don't collect the bone and blood from "certified organic" carcases only.


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## susanne (Apr 25, 2012)

Regarding bone and blood meal: I can't speak to all organic vegetable producers, but none of the ornamental gardeners I know would EVER use these, at least not since the first Mad Cow scare. I know I would never use either on anything edible.

It boils down to this: if you aren't interested or don't believe in organic, then don't buy it. Nobody is going to force you. Just don't question those who do.


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## Sue_C. (Apr 26, 2012)

We grow our own veggies, so try to keep it as clean as possible, but as bone meal and blood meal are ACCEPTED fertilizers for organic growing, it does bother me. You can say they don't use it, but have you asked...and it would have NOTHING to do with mad cow if they are healthy animals...just not necessarily organically fed critters.


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## HGFarm (May 1, 2012)

Yes there ARE 'organic' feeds - probably more properly labeled 'natural feeds'. Try finding chicken food without antibiotics in it. Or feeds for other animals without certain things you dont want. You have to do your homework to see who does and who doesnt.

When it comes to food, organic should not have pesticides, steroids, antibiotics, chemical sprays or processing, etc... in my opinion. Hard to find unless you raise your own. I am unsure why our government allows such crap that is done to grow and process things- and they wonder why there is so much cancer in the world. ANY kind of chemical is NOT good for anybody. Food was grown successfully in the years prior to inventing all this CRAP, so why do they feel it is needed now? But dont get me started on that subject!!


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## stormy (May 3, 2012)

Why herbicides and pesticides are needed now is fairly simple, more people to feed, less land to grow food on means we most produce more food per acre.

With fuel costs so high weeding with tractors like my grandfather did is no longer possible, profit margin is way to tight. Removing pests by hand doesn't work when you are farming hundreds of acres.

To put it simply organic farming can no longer produce enough to meet world hunger.


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## susanne (May 3, 2012)

Take a look at the video I posted about halfway through this thread --



They are producing more food per acre (or in their case, cubic feet) than those farms that are awash in chemicals. Industrial agriculture wants you to believe that's the only way it can be done, but it simply is not true.

Unfortunately, political power is on the side of the mega commercial farms, not the small farmer. There's a lot of crap coming out of Big Agri, and I don't just mean the swill they expect us to eat.

But -- you're certainly free to eat what you wish and leave the healthy food for those who care.


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## Danielle_E. (May 6, 2012)

Actually, humanure is a big topic in the sustainable living world. Personally, it grosses me out, too, and we will not be going there. I wouldn't mind having a composting toilet, but the resulting stuff is NOT going on my food!

Live like someone left the gate open

I must be naive but the other day was the first time I had ever heard of using human excrement to fertilize vegetables and fruit. I was watching a show that showed huge barges in China and they mentioned what they were carring and what it would be used for. Yuck!


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## Danielle_E. (May 6, 2012)

Organic farming is probably what our ancestors did, way back and yet they lived shorter lives.


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## Sue_C. (May 6, 2012)

Humanure was used in European countries since "olden times"...has you ever heard of a "Honey Wagon"? That was the special wagon hauled through town to collect, and from there, it was processed for use in the fields.


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## Shari (May 7, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Organic farming is probably what our ancestors did, way back and yet they lived shorter lives.


That's not true.... my Mom's side of the family, I can go back before 1599 and 90% of the women lived to be between 100 and 110 years old. That's proof enough for me.

And yes, this is when food was slow grown and truly organic.

The women in my family that didn't make it to those ages, either died in Childbirth or accidents.

Many people got worn out by very, very hard work. That can make you old before your time.


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