# US Politics -- Tomorrow (Thurs., 6/28) is going to be interesting!



## Jill (Jun 27, 2012)

Thursday, June 28, is poised to be the 2nd most exciting day of the year when it comes to US politics. Tomorrow is slated to bring the Holder Contempt Vote and the Supreme Court release of their Obamacare ruling. Have you all been following these items? I can promise, I will be glued to the news even more than usual tomorrow!


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## MountainWoman (Jun 28, 2012)

I can't believe no one has jumped in on this discussion. A landmark ruling due today and yes, I'll be glued as I was last night to the discussions. This ruling will impact all our lives and all the business around us as well.


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

I have a hard time understanding those who are not interested in these important matters... But, I know I take it to an extreme -- waking up at 3am unable to fall back asleep for thinking of what's going on in Washington today.


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## MountainWoman (Jun 28, 2012)

I'm the same way and praying the Court does the right thing as far as I'm concerned which is to get rid of the entire health care bill.


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

Agreed!

I also hope the Holder vote goes the right way. I think the media has conspired to make this situation the best kept secret around... NBC Nightly "News" spent only 10 seconds covering it prior to last week, while it's been more the news worthy for over year.


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## ohmt (Jun 28, 2012)

Great post, Mary Lou!


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

Oh please. Don't make me






As a citizen, employer, business owner and active member of several Chambers of Commerce, I know what Obamacare is doing to business and employment. AND if the government can MANDATE that citizens purchase health insurance, then what's next? Will they make us by a Chevy Volt? Or subscribe to The Washington Post? Purchase Solar Panels?

I've been following Holder's evasion when it comes to Fast & Furious for a year. I am delighted with the Democrats who have been affirmative about their intention to do the right thing and not vote along party lines but to vote according to what has actually happened. What happened during Fast & Furious, and the deceptions that followed, is truly outrageous and, I feel, criminal.

People who are informed and clear thinking have no reason to be rattled by anyone else's opinion. Sorry, but I am pretty darn sure a huge percentage of people have NOT been paying attention.

Of course, I can't mention my opinion on American politics without _someone_ thinking they can shame me over my former and current sentiment that I don't particulary care what non-US citizens think of US politics. Does that mean they shouldn't chime in? No... but it does mean that I am not personally concerned with their opinion when it comes to the one subject of US politics



Probably 1,0001 things that I would value outside input on, but "whatever". Gosh, how much better would "they" feel if they were as impacted by my opinion on US politics as I am by theirs?


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

Mary Lou... I have Tag on "ignore" because I'm just so sick of not being able to say anything that is non-horse related (be it political or not) without her constantly typing "*Jill*" ("bolding mine")... and reqesting additional input, reconsideration or rewording from me regardless of how clearly I've stated my two cents. While I didn't think it was advisable to make things personal on LB, kinda really -- there you went so that's my perspective on interaction with Tag. I choose not to see her posts these days, and again, this is based on my experience with her for the past several years.


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

And, to get back to the intial topic, we may hear something from the Supreme Court in just about 30 minutes from now.


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 28, 2012)

I'm interested in our countries health care issue, just don't want to voice my opinion, Lost my flame suit! To be honest I have not been keeping up with the Holder issue, so can't comment. I will say the health care in this country right now is a joke! The alcoholic accross the road, has seizures if he doesn't drink, he can't work, guess what, he gets medicaid, paid for by me, the tax payer. Yet I still pay for health care that doesn't cover all of my needs, and has a high deductable. Even with our health care we are stuck with a large payment when hospitalized, and are still paying for hubby's back surgery that he had last year. The hosp. has been paid but we still owe several hundred to the Doctor. We had a resonable amount of money saved for just this, an illness, but when hubby was laid off of work in 2008 at the start of this recession, it didn't take us long to go through it for bills. One major illness would put us under for sure. You either need to be rich or poor in this country to get by. Those of us in the middle are struggling as far as healthcare. Wish I could find that flame suit!


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

Terry, I don't think there's much doubt that the healthcare system needs improvement. Just for me alone, my health insurance is 4 figures each month. But, with all my head and heart, I don't see what was rammed through and dubbed "Obamacare" as the answer we need.

Mary Lou, I understand what you are saying, too... and I'm mighty fond of you despite some of our differing opinions.


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

The individual mandate survives as a TAX? Urgh... Repeal & Replace...


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 28, 2012)




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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

I guess i have to hope that since this will be a TAX, that the 47% of Americans who haven't been paying into the federal tax system get their "invoices" and pay... That is if we aren't able to repeal it after a new president takes office in January


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## MountainWoman (Jun 28, 2012)

Mary Lou, I agree with you about health care not being available nor affordable here in our country. I was dropped by my insurance company after an illness and wasn't able to get other coverage. My complaint with the bill (as I understand it and I'm no government scholar) is that it really is going to step in there and make more of a mess especially when it comes to employer mandates and small businesses and already some states have filed suits to opt out. This bill is not the same as single payer health care in any way. I'm not sure it will improve access to health care for those of us who are neither poor nor rich. I hope I'm wrong.


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

Don't look now but the market is tanking. What a surprise



Obamacare is bad for business and bad for our struggling economy.


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## andi (Jun 28, 2012)

I agree that most readers, no matter how involved in politics or interested in this topic, would never dream of replying for fear of attack. I know I have personally offended people in the past, and been reprimanded. But the only thing worse than being personally attacked openly, is it being done in a laughing, veiled, "acceptable" manner like it is being done on this topic already. Even people not responding to this topic have been brought up and very personally singled out and insulted. Those who have replied have been laughed at for their opinions, all the while being told, I respect you, but not enough to have a discussion without laughing at you. I think the majority of this board does not condone or support this behavior and finds it extremely offensive, so, they ignore the topic. 

When it comes to this entire health care issue; anyone who supports our country going to war, where we spend unbelievable amounts of money, and more importantly pay with our LIVES and take others lives, cannot then turn around and say they considered it overstepping the line of government involvement when they want to get more involved in Health Care. Bottom line, anything our government "takes" from us, be it taxes or even rights and freedoms, pails in comparison to the LIVES it takes fighting wars. Which makes it so unbelievable when the majority of those yelling “socialism” and to much government control when it comes to *their money*, are OK with those same things when it comes to *other people’s lives*.


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## MountainWoman (Jun 28, 2012)

Mary Lou, most employers take deductions from pay for health insurance now. I think one of the things tanking the market at the moment is the fact business don't understand the impact and from what I understand their costs will rise and in our fragile economy that might scare more small business but I'm just not knowledgeable enough to speak about it though with any certainty. I personally don't know whether this bill is a good start or not. I'm in Vermont where we will be the first state to inact single payer health care and to me personally that's the way to go so everyone has access without having to lose sleep at night whether or not they can purchase food, pay their mortgage or get a medical problem taken care of before it becomes an emergency. I don't mind waiting to see a doctor. Better than never being able to afford to go at all. JMHO and I respect others who have differing opinions and different thoughts.


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## tagalong (Jun 28, 2012)

Going off topic for a minute to address things that were directed at me personally... _again._







> She has applied for U.S. citizenship & still waiting from what she posted here. So I think she would be more qualified as a non-citizen in her opinions then I (as a U.S. citizen not living in U.S.).. Hmmm... I hope I said that right.. ???


*Mary Lou *(OMG!!! I referred to you as I just quoted you and also bolded your name - can you ever forgive me??!! I do that for everyone though - as that is considered polite on other forums - so please do not feel as if I am singling you out in any way!) - I cannot apply for ctizenship - I would need to have a green card for 5 years in order to do that - and my work Visa makes it very hard to get a Green Card. We are in the process of doing that and it could take 5 - 7 years. Yes, you read that right. And yet all sorts of perks and amnesty can be handed out to illegals and the suggestions that they get fast-tracked for citizenship and green cards makes me furious. Bush suggested it... now Obama. But I will not go off on an immigration rant. That is best left for another thread.

Back on topic.

The Supreme Court did the right thing on all the Obamacare issues IMO. So much for all the anti-Constitutional hyperbole.



> I'm in Vermont where we will be the first state to inact single payer health care and to me personally that's the way to go so everyone has access without having to lose sleep at night whether or not they can purchase food, pay their mortgage or get a medical problem taken care of before it becomes an emergency.


Well said, *Mountainwoman*.





As far as the Holder thing goes - it has not been ignored by media other than Fox as has been suggested... I have been following it avidly on assorted media. But I am disgusted with a Republican party whose sole stated purpose is not to serve their constituents and govern the country but simply to make Obama a one-term President _no matter what it takes._ And yes, I would be POed at a Dem congress pulling the same nonsense.


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## andi (Jun 28, 2012)

If the Market is already tanking, this quickly afterwords, it is the fear of obamacare that is tanking it, not the actuall thing. People who understand how economys work should also understand the importance of that difference. If they do understand the difference, but are just taking advantage of an opportunity to say, "ha, I was right", assuming the "sheeple" will be ignorant enough to just follow their fraudulent "proof", then they are no better than those they are relentlessly attacking. To quote Ayn Rand, " I don't believe that the morale of anybody can be built up by a lie." Give people the truth if you want their support and you respect them, missleading them into agreeing with you is pointless.


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 28, 2012)

Thanks Mary LOu for your concern, but we are already seniors and I'm not sure if it will help us much at this time with the exception of when I do get medicare I will now be able to get them to pay for a mammogram since cancer runs in my family, where before they didn't have to. This is a step and even though a small one in the right direction for my children, grandchildren, and great grandchildren. I have a story, this law may have helped us back when. My third born daughters health ins. was cancelled while she was in college, she was on ours, thank goodness she survived without. When she graduated she got a really good medical billing job in DC. To get on her emplyers health ins. she needed to pay for half, OK, but there was also a waiting period, just in case there was a condition of three months. While waiting for her ins to kick in she developed gall stones. We took her to the emergency room and that is were she was diagnosed but no surgion would remove them without ins. or $2500 down payment. They sent her home to suffer. she tried to continue to work and made it through till she got coverage, but was stuck with a hosp. bill over $1000 for the ER visit. What a way to start a job. Yes I do understand about the small business person, my husband had a small business, we couldn't hold on with all the workers compensation, etc. We pay for our own ins. his employer doesn't pay a penny. I'm hoping this small step with encourage costs to come down. It is a shame that when in the hosp. a band aid cost 2.50. Come on! I had my best friend die from diebetes because it was pre-exsisting and she was trying to stretch her insuline till coverage kicked it, that was in the 1990's. I was so hoping healthcare would start to reform when Clinton was in office, if had been started then maybe costs would be down now. Jill, sorry but I want four more yrs. You go President Obama! Oh, and the stock market will rebound!


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

"I think it's telling that a victory for the Obama administration means a middle class tax increase -- and that's exactly what this is... Here's what this means: it is now unlawful for you not to buy health insurance, and if you don't buy it, you have an IRS problem. If you do not buy health insurance, the IRS is going to be on your back and chasing you. They're going to take away your refund. They're going to increase your fees. They're going to come after you. That's what this now means for millions of Americans." -- Marco Rubio, June 28. 2012


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 28, 2012)

This should make you happy, because of the ruling the repubs are now donating large sums of money to Romneys camp.

Also on Jills last post, I'm all for it, I can't stand dead beats! If you are able to work you need to pay your own way and that includes health care. Now if some one will work on the welfare system, and teen pregnancy being rewarded by getting welfare I would be a happy camper.


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## MountainWoman (Jun 28, 2012)

One thing that is going to play into this for a number of people is the Medicaid expansion being struck down. Wonder what the income caps are going to be before you are able to get aid to purchase insurance.


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

I do feel this is going to solidify support behind Mitt Romney, and he was already doing a stellar job of raking in campaign donations. It's the left that is experiencing a shortage of campaign funds.

As far as this helping to "catch" illegal aliens -- I seriously doubt it. You don't think "they're" actually trying to catch illegal immigrants, do you? Remember this from last week:

"President Barack Obama’s deputies announced Monday they are further reducing immigration enforcement in Arizona. The surprise announcement came shortly after the Supreme Court decided that Arizona has the constitutional right to quiz suspected illegal immigrants about their legal right to be in the country."

More info: http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz1yqTkr3Jk


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 28, 2012)

In response to Jills statement, I won't be taxed, only the ones that work and don't have ins. will be taxed! Lets play I found something!




Still haven't found my flame suit, but this will do. I have two daughters that work in medical billing, so I'm not totally in the dark. Lets just say Susie is 28 yrs old she has a good job but doesn't think she needs to pay for health ins. she would rather get her nails done and buy designer shoes. She has worked hard all day and stops at the mall to shop for a new pair of shoes. She's leaving the mall and a man comes up behind her sticks a knife in her back and asks for her purse, before she knows what is happening he grabs the purse and inserts the knife. She wakes up in the emergency room. she is treated, has surgery since the public hosp. can't refuse her care, and is released. When she gets the bill, she thinks I can't pay this and moves, gets another job and disappears. Who do you think foots her bill? We do! The hosp. can't collect, they send it to collection agency, then to lawyer. No payment is ever received. The hosp. at the end of the yr has to take a lose, so we the tax payer picks up the tab. Also the more people paying in, the less the cost to the rest of us. Poor Susie gets off scott free but she has her new shoes, next time she won't be so lucky, she needs to be like the rest of us and give up those new shoes and pay her fair share!


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## MountainWoman (Jun 28, 2012)

Because I love discussing anything political and am a news junkie, I'd love to take the reverse of that Jill and say this has also energized Obama's base as well. Another thing with Romney is that he has Romney Care standing alongside him which weakens his arguments not to mention the fact that he flip flops on his decisions. I also heard that it will take more than just a President signing an executive order to undo this bill. I think the entire bill should have been thrown out because no one really knows how it will be implemented, what is really in it or the costs associated with it in an already fragile, debt ridden economy but I believe we are seriously in need true health care reform and a single payer system. Maybe that's what Obama is working towards. Anyway, JMHO. I hope everyone jumps in and is not afraid to express their opinions. Part of the fun of life is discussing politics and today's decision is really a momentous one no matter where you stand.


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## little lady (Jun 28, 2012)

I guess one of the parts I am having a hard time wrapping my head around is just how are you going to force people to buy insurance? With the economy faultering and people having to deicde do they make their mortgage payment or buy groceries where are they going to get the $ to afford insurance? Also who will moniter the insurance company so that they don't inflate the premiums. Also if everyone must have insurnace will the healthcare providers gouge also? I just feel like health care does need to be addressed from all angles(hospital, doctor, insurance)and the people setting up these programs should be well versed in ALL aspects in order to develop a program that will really work for the poeple.


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## tagalong (Jun 28, 2012)

I like how both Fox News and CNN blew it at first - and said the individual mandate was unconstitutional. They did not bother to read the whole thing before they made the wrong announcement...



... in their haste to be FIRST!!


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## Crabby-Chicken (Jun 28, 2012)

Tag,,, whats new???


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 28, 2012)

Tag I live in the boonies and only have dial up! Sorry I couldn't watch your videos, bummer for me! To Little Lady, what it means is if you don't buy ins. the irs will deduct from your tax refund. Believe me I've been there done that without ins. and I know it's hard, but if something happens the ones that pay in the long run is the tax payer, that actually pays their taxes that is, not the ones at the top that pay less! Or the ones that pay nothing such as the poor. My first husband was shot and killed when he was only 24 yrs. old. He thought he was too young for anything to happen to him, he had no health care, no life ins. nothing. When he died his bills were left to me to pay, plus I had children to pay for, so I know first hand how hard it is. Back when I was a kid we didn't have health care in this country, we only had hospitilization. That meant when you went to the family practicianor you paid for the visit, and it was about $10 which believe it or not was about one fourth of your weekly salary. You also paid for your medication, but costs were kep low as everyone paid for their own meds. Hospitilization only covered when you were admitted or in the ER and even then it only covered 80% you were required to pay the rest. Now it's a whole different ballgame, but needs to be fixed, this is just the tip of the iceburg.


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

Here's a CALCULATOR if people want to know how it might impact them personally:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/special/politics/what-health-bill-means-for-you/


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## susanne (Jun 28, 2012)

Never mind


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

I have to say, I'm very happy to see how in just a few hours, the RNC and Mitt Romney seem to be doing all the right things to turn today's lemon into November's lemonade. I'm starting to feel a whole lot better about the news we got at 10am today!


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

This is too on target not to share.

*Let's repeal and replace Obamacare: Five reasons Obamacare must go*

_*by John C. Goodman*_

Now that the Supreme Court has declined to strike down the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (Obamacare), the time has come to repeal and replace the entire law. Here are five reasons to do so.

*1.) The health reform law is a Rube Goldberg contraption that no one can explain.* The reason: It was the result of a special interest compromise, with each group claiming a slice of a 10-year, trillion-dollar pie. Big Pharma’s collusion with the White House to pass Obamacare is just one of many examples of how crony capitalism tried to shape our health care system.

*2.) The law is not paid for.* The Congressional Budget Office (CBO) estimates that $523 billion of health reform’s first 10-year cost will be paid for by spending cuts on Medicare enrollees. That means that over half the costs of this reform will be borne by some of the most vulnerable Americans: the elderly and disabled. The Medicare chief actuary’s report explains that as a result of Obamacare, half the seniors in Medicare Advantage plans (7.5 million) will lose coverage and the remainder will face higher premiums and benefit cuts. Nearly one in seven medical facilities is expected to become insolvent and drop out of Medicare altogether in the next eight years. Medicare patients will have increasing difficulty finding a doctor who will see them.

*3.) The law will impose heavy costs on employment at the very time we can least afford it.* Employers of $15-an-hour workers will be forced to buy insurance whose cost (for a family) will equal half the employees’ wages. The uncertainty the law creates is already making employers reluctant to hire new workers and is contributing to our anemic economic recovery.

*4.) Obamacare institutes a **bizarre system of subsidies** that will prove extremely disruptive to American businesses.* The law offers radically different subsidies to people at the same income level, depending on where they obtain their health insurance — at work, through a health-insurance exchange (a state-regulated health insurance market) or through Medicaid.

Generally, the more money you make, the greater the subsidy at work and the lower the subsidy in the exchange. Therefore, low-income workers will seek work from companies that do not provide insurance, while high-income employees will seek out employers who do. Firms that ignore these worker preferences will not survive, meaning companies and entire industries will be forced to reorganize as they compete for labor. The subsidies and accompanying mandates will cause millions of employees to lose their employer plans and potentially their jobs. At a minimum, these subsidies will incite a huge, uneconomical restructuring of American industry.

*5.) Obamacare’s approach to health care delivery is bureaucratic and top down.* The law creates a slew of pilot programs in an attempt to make health care more efficient. Yet in three separate occasions, the CBO has found these demonstrations are not working.

The time is ripe for health reform that liberates patients and doctors and encourages innovation and creativity along with real prices and a real marketplace. It’s time for a consumer-driven system of care that gives power back to the people.

_John C. Goodman is a research fellow at the Independent Institute, president of the National Center for Policy Analysis and author of __Priceless: Curing the Healthcare Crisis__. _

Read more: http://dailycaller.c.../#ixzz1z7W1Wvk3


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## Jill (Jun 28, 2012)

Congress just voted to hold Atty General Eric Holder in criminal contempt. Glad to see that result.


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## MountainWoman (Jun 28, 2012)

Jill, I tried to get the calculator link to work and couldn't get the calculator to function so I found this one through Forbes Magazine which links to the Henry J. Kaiser Family Foundation and shows what kind of assistance we will get in paying our premiums. It's very interesting and worth checking out.

http://healthreform.kff.org/SubsidyCalculator.aspx


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## susanne (Jun 28, 2012)

.

Never mind. I'll edit myself.


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## Jill (Jun 29, 2012)

MW, thank you for the calculator you posted. I was able to operate both the one you posted and the one I did, but initially couldn't get the one I posted to work. Then I realized I had overlooked one of the questions and it required an answer to be functional... of course, any "assistance" is funded by ___________________.

I'm insured, and so is my husband. I'm an employer and I do know that I'll make the bottomline work for me and my family even at the expense of employee jobs. Just like "you all", I too go to work to support myself and my family. Business owners will not shoulder a burden that is unfair. Just as I said before, I know my own perspective and the perspective of other business owners. Obamacare will continue to cost jobs. I also know what myself and other financial professionals think about the economic prospects if we are subjected to another term of an anti-capitalist.

Those busy doing a happy dance, what's your take on the fact that Obama promised repeatedly that Obamacare wouldn't increase taxes yet the Supreme court yesterday upheld the individual mandate as a TAX? In fact, $1.7 TRILLION of tax, and 21 new taxes result.

Come on, November! I bet Mitt Romney and the RNC will have some outstanding commercials airing in the very near future.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jun 29, 2012)

I think everyone should start raising chickens.


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 29, 2012)

I had my fun with this thread yesterday, and now like ML, I'm done, think I'll take someones elses advice and go sit in the chicken coop and let them peck at my toes, NOT, thats a joke, but I do raise chickens! It's too hot outside, I'm staying in the air conditioning and I'll find some other way to get into trouble or make a fool out of myself in front of my friends. I love all of you! If nothing else these threads are entertaining on a hot summer day!


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## Margo_C-T (Jun 29, 2012)

I am not about to enter a comment, but I did read this whole thread and actually learned some things!

As for the chickens? I'd rather raise quail; I grew up on a state game bird farm and I LOVE game birds, esp. quailies! There are some 'scalie's(blue or scaled quail)around here, and I love, love, LOVE hearing their calls; beats the HECK out of the sound of loud motorcycles/ATVs/dirt bikes/muffler-less autos/small planes w/ loud engines that love to fly in circles overhead, etc., that are nowadays a near-constant intrusion into our former rural peace and quiet.)

(FWIW-Poll on my msn home page has 60% of respondents saying the Supreme Court did NOT make 'the right decision', compared to 32% who think it did.)Make of that what you will.

Margo


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 29, 2012)

Sorry ML, it won't load for me, is it a video?


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## Jill (Jun 29, 2012)

_*Chickens... *_I've wanted some of those "furry chickens" (silky hens) for awhile but have not ever pursued it. I think they look so neat!

Concerning the main topic, It might surprise people, but after the initial shock of the ruling, hearing the statements from the court read -- I actually think the right ddecisionwas made and that the court did what the court is supposed to do. That's not the same as saying I like Obamacare or want Uncle Sam to control our hhealth care but it sounds to me as if the proper, legal action was accomplished and as was indicated -- the ball is now in the court of We The People. The courts don't rewrite, but rule on what has been presented to them. I don't think that many people on the LEFT or the RIGHT expected the outcome (for it to boil down to a tax), but there we go. While the government cannot compel us to purchase a product, they actually do have the right to levy taxes. It's a weird combination of feeling the right thing "by the letter" was decided, but not liking that the result is Obamacare has survived this round and -- just when I thought I couldn't like it less -- it turned into a whopper of a tax bill. $1.7 Trillion Dollars...

But just to be clear, I don't "like" what was decided yesterday but I think it was the CORRECT outcome based on how the legistlation was written. We don't want a Supreme Court to act on what they do and do not LIKE or what they think is or is not best for us. We want them to apply the letter of the law.

It was a roller coaster yesterday morning. I kept re-loading the Drudge Report and, you know me, I had FOX News on as well. Both Fox and Drudge initially got it "wrong" because the earlier part of the court's decision not uphold the individual mandate in the form it was assumed to take -- only to later in the document hold it up as the tax it has now become. Apparently, CNN got it wrong at first too but watching the reporters reading and trying to report at the same time, it's so easy to see how it happened. Still, it made it more emotional than I would have figured.

"We the People" get a chance to influence the ultimate fate of Obamacare this November. Really, that's how it should be.


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 29, 2012)

Jill get some chickens you may need asource of protien in the future! Not a prophecy just be prepared.


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## Jill (Jun 29, 2012)

They probably do taste better than horses


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## Riverrose28 (Jun 29, 2012)

No! don't eat the chickens, eat the eggs, silly girl! HAHA!


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## Jill (Jun 29, 2012)

Phew!!!





... I'm probably just over anticipating the turkey burgers we're having for dinner tonight


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## Jill (Jun 29, 2012)

_I just sent this report to some of my clients and radio show listeners, and since it ties into the discussion here, I thought why not share it with you folks, too._

--------------

*THE FINANCIAL IMPACT OF THE AFFORDABLE CARE ACT*
​



_A look at the ripples from the Supreme Court decision._
​



President Obama’s health care law has held up in the Supreme Court. So what impact might this have on the stock market, businesses, and investors in the coming months?

*How will Wall Street take this? *After the June 28 ruling, stocks of key managed care companies fell while hospital stocks and Medicaid-related stocks rallied. Was this a reaction confined to a market day, or an indicator? Opinions differ.

In the view of Leerink Swann health care analyst Jason Gurda, the high court ruling was “largely a neutral” financially and “what the market has mostly expected for the last two years.” Barry Knapp, head of equity strategy at Barclays Capital, called the Supreme Court’s decision “a pretty clear negative” that would weigh on business confidence and therefore the markets. Charles Boorady, a top health-care analyst for Credit Suisse, saw an upside: “As a country, we’re going to spend about $2 trillion more on health care with this law and that’s all money coming into [that sector], which will ultimately be good for the managed health care stocks.”1,2

Right now, the market has plenty of things on its mind (European debt issues, job creation, China’s economic health, and our November elections) and the impact of this ruling might fall far down the list.

*How much more tax will we pay? *In the Supreme Court’s majority opinion, Chief Justice John G. Roberts, Jr. portrayed the Affordable Care Act’s individual insurance mandate as a tax. This was a key argument for the constitutionality of the reforms.3

The greatest financial impact from the Affordable Care Act may be felt in tax terms. Here are some related taxes/penalties poised to arrive in 2013, 2014 and beyond that could affect solopreneurs, businesses and the wealthy.

**Medicare surtaxes in 2013.* There are actually two such taxes. Individuals earning more than $200,000 a year and married couples earning more than $250,000 would pay a 3.8% “Medicare contribution tax” on all or part of their net investment income. Medicare taxes on salary and self-employment would rise 0.9% for such taxpayers.4

**Penalties for individual non-compliance.* The typical American who goes without health insurance coverage in 2014 will have to pay a penalty - $95 or 1% of annual income, whichever is greater. In 2015, the penalty will be $325 or 2% of annual income. The dollar amounts of these penalties are tripled for uninsured families.3

**Penalties for business non-compliance.* In 2014, a business with 50 or more FTEs must start providing health coverage or face fines once an employee turns to the government for a health care tax credit or a subsidy on the exchanges. The minimum fine will be $40,000. All this may drive larger companies to shop for cheaper health coverage on the state exchanges. Yet some firms may run the numbers, consider the penalties and find it more cost-effective to drop their health plans and direct employees (and early retirees) to buy insurance individually.5

**A major excise tax looms for “Cadillac” plans.* In 2018, active health plans of large employers (self-insured or not) will face a 40% excise tax if plan costs exceed $10,200 for individual coverage and $27,500 for family coverage.6

*How surprised are business owners?* Some quarters of the small business community were shocked by the Supreme Court’s decision. The National Federation of Independent Businesses (NFIB), which lobbied against the reforms for two years, will now seek to mount legal challenges to the ACA.7

As Shawn Cochran of website marketing firm Branches PSP told Fox Business, the rule that requires companies with more than 50 FTEs to provide health insurance “will be a huge factor in who and how we hire – whether we bring on full-time employees or individual contractors. This directly affects the business decisions we make and the way companies will move forward.” Jim Amos, CEO of frozen yogurt chain Tasti D-Lite, thinks the ACA will slow franchise growth. “It’s going to force franchisees to shift workers to part-time to avoid the 50-employee threshold,” he told CNBC. “It will keep new owners and new openings on the sideline.” John Arensmeyer, CEO of the Small Business Majority, saw a win all around: “The law will significantly rein in costs while providing more health coverage options for entrepreneurs.”7,8

While the financial impact of the ACA may be subtler than that of the EU debt crisis or the potential end of the Bush-era tax cuts, it could prove considerable indeed.

*Citations:*

1 – www.nytimes.com/2012/06/29/business/insurance-stocks-flag-hospital-shares-gain.html [6/28/12]

2 – www.cnbc.com/id/47994090 [6/28/12]

3 - money.cnn.com/2012/06/28/pf/taxes/health_reform_new_taxes/index.htm [6/28/12]

4 - www.smartmoney.com/taxes/income/what-obamacare-may-mean-for-taxes-1335896160486/ [6/28/12]

5 – money.cnn.com/2012/06/28/smallbusiness/supreme-court-health-reform/index.htm [6/28/12]

6 - www.foxbusiness.com/personal-finance/2012/06/28/health-reform-is-constitutional-here-are-tax-implications/ [6/28/12]

7 - smallbusiness.foxbusiness.com/legal-hr/2012/06/28/obamacare-upheld-small-business-community-divided/ [6/28/12]

8 - www.cnbc.com/id/48000806 [6/28/12]


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## tagalong (Jun 29, 2012)

> Tag I live in the boonies and only have dial up! Sorry I couldn't watch your videos, bummer for me!


They were not videos - just screen captures of the bungles made by Fox News and CNN...





I did enjoy Romney's rebuttal speech in which he outlined aspects of healthcare overhaul that he would put into effect - that were already covered under Obamacare. _Doesn't anyone do their homework anymore? _It was very ...odd - and basically he wound up saying he would do a lot of the same things. Go figure. Romneycare is not going to be much different.

Of course, the market had one of its best days in a long time today - so I guess that Obamacare scare had no lasting effects... same as every other "scare" the market goes through.


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## Sonya (Jun 30, 2012)

According to that calculator, if I have to purchase Obamacare, it will cost me 10,000/yr in premiums for myself and my husband and over $12,000 a year out of pocket (that does not include premium). I am not rich by any means either, our combined income is considered slightly above middle class. So those of you who are in the middle class and think this is going to help you, think again. Not to mention those who do get insurance through your employer (and your employer pays all or even part of the premium) don't be surprised if that option will no longer be available....the penalty for not providing you insurance is going to be cheaper than them providing it!


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## ozymandias (Jun 30, 2012)

Spent some time in Track Town USA at the Olympic Trials...WOW, what a street party that is. They have all the roads closed off around Hayward Field at the University of Oregon and it's all one big celebration. Lot of fun. Right opposite Hayward Field is the Knight Law School...OMG...that school is SO lucky to have "Uncle Phil" and his mega $$$$$ donations.

Talking Obamacare I'm saving $600 a month and have been for the past few months. I have a 22 year old. The day he turned 21 we bought him his own healthcare policy. Cost us almost $600 a month. Now Obamacare covers family members up to the age of 26 so he's back on our family plan. That's around $30,000 I'm going to save over the next few years. I told him I'd take that $600 and purchase him a 5 acre lot that's for sale close by - the owner will carry and after the 5 years he'll have something to show for the $'s that he'll have as an investment forever. I think that's putting money back into the economy. I'm not sure my neighbor down the street is too happy though. She doesn't have healthcare because she claims poverty...of course with 4 full size horses to feed and a brand new pickup to pull her 5 horse trailer - she maybe is poor. Fancy her having to fork our her share - oh the horror of it!


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## vickie gee (Jun 30, 2012)

*More sad to me than people actually** thinking it is funny that the news media at first announced the decision as struck down** is that likely if a poll were taken across the U.S. today and the question was: *

*"Which of the announcements that came this week is more newsworthy to you?"*

*1. Supreme Court rules on Obamacare (regardless of the outcome)*

*2. Tom Cruise and Katie Holmes split up.*

*Wonder how close the vote would be? Just saying......*


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## ozymandias (Jun 30, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> *More sad to me than people actually** thinking it is funny that the news media at first announced the decision as struck down** is that likely if a poll were taken across the U.S. today and the question was: *
> 
> *"Which of the announcements that came this week is more newsworthy to you?"*
> 
> ...


Sad because I think we all know the answer Vickie



(Good point)


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## Jill (Jun 30, 2012)

Sonya and Vickie, unfortunately, I think you're both right on. A huge number of people pay no attention to news and politics but know the score on pop culture events. If Obamacare stands, those folks will be shocked when the consequences negatively impact them in a way American Idol never could


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## Miniv (Jun 30, 2012)

I'm NOT going to panic over how we are going to come up with an extra $12,000 a year until the November elections are done. And a lot can happen between now and when all this is supposed to take affect.


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## Jill (Jul 1, 2012)

Great article from the *Wall Street Journal*! Lots of very good points are made, and predictions that make a lot of sense to me.

*Jenkins: ObamaCare—Upheld and Doomed*
*Regardless of the Supreme Court, fiscal reality will prevail.*
Fans of ObamaCare must be busting a gut three times over. The mandate that conservatives now hate was originally a conservative proposal. In upholding it, Chief Justice John Roberts followed President Obama's Rose Garden instructions to the letter: The Court must find an act constitutional if it happens to be the signature act of a president running for re-election.
 
Worse, in doing so, he may have read any constitutional limit on Congress out of the Constitution while pretending to do the opposite. Congress cannot compel you to do anything Congress wishes, but it can impose taxes on you until you finally have no rational alternative but to do whatever Congress wishes.
History will judge whether Mr. Roberts saved the reputation of the court or lost his nerve. Many conservatives obviously suspect the latter. Resolved: The government cannot make you eat broccoli, though it may levy a non-broccoli-eating tax on any who refuse.
Yet he may also think—and would not be wrong to think—that ObamaCare is doomed in any case. His opinion makes clearer than ever that ObamaCare is a tax program—throwing more tax dollars at an unreformed health-care system. ObamaCare is a huge new entitlement in a nation laboring under commitments it already can't afford. Those who gripe that he just authorized a vast expansion of the welfare state haven't reckoned with this fiscal reality principle.
What's more—and save us your constitutional brickbats—the mandate's survival could actually be a convenience to those who remain seriously interested in fixing health care.
 
GOPers, including Mitt Romney, immediately adopted "repeal" as their mantra. But repealing ObamaCare would just leave us with the health-care system we have, which is already ObamaCare in many respects—an unsustainable set of subsidies bankrupting the nation.
The solution is a tweak. Republicans already are lip-committed to a national health-insurance charter that allows insurers to design their own policies and market them across state lines. Republicans are also lip-committed to a tax reform to equalize the tax treatment of health care whether purchased by individuals or by employers on behalf of individuals.
Now just modify the Affordable Care Act so buying any health policy authorized by the new charter, no matter how minimalist, satisfies the employer and individual mandate
What would follow is a boom in low-cost, high-deductible plans that leave individuals in charge of managing most of their ordinary health-care costs out of pocket. Because it would be cheap, millions who would opt not to buy coverage will buy coverage. Because it will be cheap, companies will direct their low-wage and entry-level employees to this coverage.
 
Now these workers will be covered for serious illness or injury, getting the rest of us off the hook. As they grow older, wealthier and start families, they will choose more extensive but still rationally limited coverage. Meanwhile, the giant subsidies ObamaCare would dish out to help the middle class afford ObamaCare's gold-plated mandatory coverage would be unneeded.
With consumers shouldering a bigger share of health expenses directly, hospital and doctors would discover the advantages of competing on price and quality. This way lies salvation. In the long run, whatever share of GDP society decides to allocate to health care, it will get its money's worth—the fundamental problem today.
Perhaps a not-discreditable sense of the political moment lies behind the chief justice's opinion after all. The court's job, he wrote, is not to "protect the people from the consequences of their political choices."
He may have meant: The chief justice's job is to get the court out of the way while the body politic still remains suspended between recognizing the unsustainabilty of the current welfare model and deciding what to do about it.
 
This was always the fatal problem of ObamaCare. Reality could not have instructed President Obama more plainly: The last thing we needed, in a country staggering under deficits and debt, a sluggish economy and an unaffordable entitlement structure, was a new Rube Goldberg entitlement. The last thing we needed was ObamaCare. The nation and the times were asking Mr. Obama to reform health care, not to double-down on everything wrong with the current system.
Even with this week's Court success, he failed—and it's not as if there wasn't a deep well of policy understanding in Washington that he could have drawn on to take the country in a better direction. Regardless of any Supreme Court ruling, reality will pass its own judgment on the Affordable Care Act and it won't be favorable.
 
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303649504577496850233678284.html

http://online.wsj.co...0233678284.html
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052702303649504577496850233678284.html


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## Jill (Jul 2, 2012)

Just because I'm betting many of you will not hear this on your nightly news, here's a neat little list... from some of our friends at Canada Free Press!

Here is an abbreviated list of taxes on families and businesses introduced by the Patient Protection and Affordable Care Act (PPACA), known as Obamacare, totalling more than $500 billion over the next ten years as prepared by the Americans for Tax Reform:


Excise taxes on charitable hospitals ($50,000 per hospital if they do not meet HHS criteria of “community health assessment needs,” billing and collection,” and “financial assistance” (PPACA, 2010, pp. 1,961-1,971)

Codify “economic substance doctrine” (IRS will not allow any legal deductions or tax-minimizing plans because it lacks “substance” and is intended to reduce taxes owed); this is a tax increase of $4.5 billion (Bill Reconciliation Act, 2010, pp. 108-113)

“Black liquor” tax on a special bio-fuel (Bill Reconciliation Act, 2010, p. 105)

Tax on innovating drug companies (PPACA, 2010, p. 1,971-1,980)

Blue Cross/Blue Shield Tax Increase (PPACA, 2010, p. 2,004)

Ten percent tax on indoor tanning (PPACA, 2010, pp. 2,397-2,399)

Medicine cabinet tax disallows Americans to use health savings accounts, flexible spending accounts, or health reimbursement pre-tax money to buy over the counter medicines except insulin (PPACA, 2011, pp. 1,957-1,959

HSA Withdrawal tax hike from 10 to 20 percent (PPACA, 2011, p. 1,959

Employer reporting of insurance on W-2 forms, taxing health benefits on individual tax returns (PPACA, 2012, p. 1,957)

Surtax on investment income for families that make at least $250,000 or $200,00 single (Bill Reconciliation Act, 2013, pp. 87-93)

Medicare payroll tax increase (PPACA, Reconciliation Act, 2013, pp. 2,000-2,003, pp. 87-93)

A 2.3 percent excise tax on medical device manufacturers (PPACA, 2013, pp. 1,980-1,986)

Medical expenses can be itemized if they exceed 10 percent, no longer the previous 7.5 percent, resulting in fewer people being able to itemize (PPACA, 2013, pp. 1,994-1,995

Flexible spending account cap of $2,500 which is now unlimited (PPACA, 2013, pp. 2,388-2,389)

Eliminate tax deductions for employer-provided retirement prescription drug coverage in coordination with Medicare Part D (PPACA, 2013, p. 1,994)

Limit of $500,000 annual executive compensation for health insurance executives (PPACA, 2013, pp. 1,995-2,000)

Individual mandate excise tax starting in 2014 if a person does not buy a “qualifying” health insurance, 1 percent in 2014, 2 percent in 2015, 2.5 percent in 2016; exempted are hardship cases as determined by HHS, religious objectors, undocumented immigrants, prisoners, those earning less than the poverty line, members of Indian tribes (PPACA, 2014, pp. 317-337)

Employer mandated tax, non-deductible of $2,000 per employee if the employer does not offer health coverage and at least one employee qualifies for a health tax credit; if an employee receives coverage through the government exchange, the employer penalty for that employee increases to $3,000 (PPACA, 2014, pp. 345-346)

Tax on health insurers based on premiums collected per year (PPACA, 2014, pp. 1,986-1,993 (this all but forces employers to stop offering insurance, forcing their employees onto the government exchanges)

40 percent excise tax on comprehensive health insurance plans or “Cadillac plans” (PPACA, 2018, pp. 1,941-1,956)


Source: http://www.canadafre...y6n7WM.facebook

I think that the tax on innovating drug companies, medicine cabinet tax, surtax on investment income, medicare payroll tax increase, excise tax on medical device manufacturers, and the increased threshold to itemize medical expenses for tax return deductions are extra "nice" and should to something to the economy and the prospects for medical innovation... But hey, most people aren't paying attention to what's going on.


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## tagalong (Jul 3, 2012)

Canada Free Press. I have often looked askance at that website when I stumble across a link. CFP is a very conservative website full of opinion pieces - and not actual press in Canada. Their "columnists" tend to post along these lines...



> We think that most of America and a vast majority of the rest of the world have by now discovered the real Barack Hussein Obama; usurper, charlatan, actor, pretender, alibier, as well as democracy detester, country destroyer, and prevaricator extreme.


Or in a "column" about the bus lady... this pops up...



> Like Islamic Sharia law and democracy, good and evil will never be able to co-exist. America cannot exist if no one stands up against those adherents and purveyors pushing evil under the color of diversity and tolerance. Under the false meme of diversity, Americans have been brainwashed by Progressives, Communists, liberals and Ivy League twits attempting to balkanize America and forever pervert the moral fabric that made this country exceptional. Instead of standing up for all that is good and kicking out what is bad, we have been conditioned to accept victimhood status individually and collectively.


Their agenda is very clear. You get hit over the head with it time and time again at that website to the point that it gets a bit comical - all while they assure you how "free" thinking they are...

However, agendas should be put aside. Figures should always be checked and it should be clarified that things are not reported out of context when it comes to such issues. Cherry-picked facts that are presented often deliberately omit other facts or figures that may not favour specific agendas.

There are many things in that long Obamacare treatise that are not going to be "perfect", are going to be tweaked, and may never even come to be.

Strangely enough, a lot of what Romney said he would "fix" about healthcare is already part of Obamacare - but hey, most people aren't paying attention to what is going on...


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## MountainWoman (Jul 3, 2012)

From the Obama/Biden 2012 website - a calculator about how the ACT will help you. Input your info.

http://www.barackoba...RE_TOOL2_SIGNON


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## ozymandias (Jul 3, 2012)

Thanks Tag,

you pretty much beat me to posting the same thing lol.

I particularly enjoyed the

"Limit of $500,000 annual executive compensation for health insurance executives (PPACA, 2013, pp. 1,995-2,000)" part...sorry, not really unhappy that some insurance company exec. gets his yearly bonus limited to $ half a million....paid for by OUR premiums while our costs go up and our coverage goes down.


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## Jill (Jul 3, 2012)

MW, thank you for the link, but I'm probably one of the least likely people on LB to venture over to the Obama/Biden website and propaganda machine. I appreciate the thought behind you sharing it, but I will not be "dropping by". I do think, though, it's laughable to watch Obama try to spin his thesaurus and come up with something to call the the enforcement of the individual mandate... He said it wasn't a tax a year + ago, and he still wants to say it's not a tax even on the heelsof SCOTUS, the highest court in our Nation, telling all Americans that, yes, it IS a TAX.

Those people who think insurance companies, oil companies or ANY publicly traded company make too much money should consider purchasing some stock in the companies and participate in the profits.

If you think the executives of PRIVATE sector companies are paid too much, maybe you should become one? The government should not cap private success. The executive compensation is set by the Board of Directors who are accountable to the stockholders (the company owners).

Sounds like just another round of CLASS WARFARE to me. ... it's okay to be a success, just as long as you are not too successful? Please.

The solution to these high health company CEO compensation packages, and the REAL problem of too high premium costs for you and I, s COMPETION. Not government dictation. Let health insurance companies compete against state lines and see what happens. Implement Tort Reform and see how that helps the consumers.

There's not any shortage of information out there when it comes to well written articles and editorials about WHAT is in the bill, and what it means to Americans. Some want to know and be informed. Some do not.

The Chief Economist for the Wall Street Journal states that 75% of Obamacare costs will fall on backs of those making $120K or less. Personally, I find him to be a well informed and reliable source of information. He outlines exactly what is behind his statement below, for those who are interested:

 http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ixRRuzmxzTg


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## Jill (Jul 3, 2012)

A little comic relief:


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## Jill (Jul 3, 2012)

And one more, my favorite... and neither are more popular now than they were when they aided in the GOP 2010 victories:


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## Jill (Jul 3, 2012)

Thank you.


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## ozymandias (Jul 4, 2012)

never mind....lol


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## MountainWoman (Jul 4, 2012)

I love hearing everyone's opinion for our differences is what makes life interesting. Everyone needs to vote their conscience whether it's Republican, Democratic or Libertarian or something else. And on this 4th of July, I'm very thankful that we have this opportunity to bring diverse ideas together and share. Thanks everyone for the discussion, the cartoons and the passion we all bring to this topic. Happy 4th!


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## Jill (Jul 4, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> I love hearing everyone's opinion for our differences is what makes life interesting. Everyone needs to vote their conscience whether it's Republican, Democratic or Libertarian or something else. And on this 4th of July, I'm very thankful that we have this opportunity to bring diverse ideas together and share. Thanks everyone for the discussion, the cartoons and the passion we all bring to this topic. Happy 4th!


MW





We are so lucky to have the freedom and opportunities open to us by virtue of being Americans





Happy, happy Independence Day


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## ozymandias (Jul 4, 2012)

Aren't you supposed to be in a different class to commit class warfare





HAPPY Independence Day everyone


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## Jill (Jul 4, 2012)

Some more FYI:


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## Sue_C. (Jul 4, 2012)

Across the board, the US was sitting pretty good, income tax wise...http://www.cbpp.org/cms/index.cfm?fa=view&id=3151

A question? Will this nullify the NEED for the private insurance that many cannot really afford to pay, that they have been paying, or is it an added burden?


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## Sonya (Jul 4, 2012)

I sure hope not Sue, Obamacare will cost me more than private insurance (and I will get better care with private)...not to mention all the millions of jobs that will be lost.


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