# Close that mouth!!!!



## Blackwater Farm (Mar 14, 2011)

I have been driving my 8 year old mini gelding for about two years now and I have finally decided to take him to a local show that has some driving classes for minis only. I want to enter the Country Pleasure class. I have only ever really done pleasure driving with this gelding and he is awesome. He is a real been there done that kinda guy. As I was reading the rulebook for the show it stated that contact with the mouth should be maintained at all times and loss of which will be penalized. Now I have never really put much contact on my geldings mouth, never had to, he is very soft and light, fingertip light and he knows voice commands well. When I do try to maintain some contact with his mouth he opens it wide and starts chompin' on the bit. I know its not a teeth issue, he just had his dental dont not long ago. How can I teach him to accept my contact with his mouth? I am not "grabbing'" at it by any means but as soon as he feels that contact he starts opening his mouth and chomping. He will even do a little head shake from side to side. He seems to have more of an issue with it at the trot than at the walk. Now I know this is not show acceptable and there is something I am not doing right...HELP! Thanks!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 14, 2011)

Well, the main error was in not holding contact all along.




Now when you do so he doesn't understand why you're "getting in his face" so of course he objects and fusses and will continue to do so until he gets used to this new way of driving and learns the benefits of it. It's like the difference between riding western and English- a western horse is used to holding their speed by themselves once told to trot or canter and only changes when give another command. Riding them is like flipping a series of switches on and off. An English horse is collected and held in a frame by active rein contact and every little tiny change in the reins means a change in their behavior. Riding an English horse is like using the accelerator on a car. You have to hold it down and any easing of the pressure means a corresponding change in speed. What you're trying to do is change your guy from a western-style driving horse to an English-style one. It's not easy!

The trick is to teach him that the bit is his friend and that you're not getting in his face so much as offering to hold his hand. Good contact should be like holding your child's hand- friendly, open, enjoyable physical contact by which you guide each other and share information. Nobody gets pushed or pulled around and it isn't about constantly controlling every little movement. It's just about taking a feel of each other and sharing information nonverbally.

To start with, make sure your bit is comfortable for him. Can you post a picture of it for us? Many times you'll find that what seems at first like a perfectly fine bit is actually poorly made and we want to make sure your horse doesn't have a reason besides annoyance for opening his mouth when you take up the reins. Once you're sure your bit is fine, then you need to take up a more active style of driving. He isn't going to like this at first! If you have anyone who could give you lessons in person it would be good as there's a lot of "feel" involved and that can be very hard to learn over the internet.

If you do have to try it yourself without help, this is how I'd do it. You're going to want to coax and wheedle him into it; don't just suddenly take up a lot of heavy contact and expect him to get used to it. He'll probably be very confused and try a lot of things like stopping or even backing up as he attempts to figure out what you want. Stay soft and don't escalate but insist gently that he moves forward into your very light contact and as soon as he does, soften your pressure. Don't throw the reins away but let him feel a definite release so he knows he did the right thing and gets a reward he understands. Praise, praise, praise! Repeat this through several whoa/walk/whoa transitions until he gets through the stubborn confusion stage and starts thinking very hard about it. Then relax a little and let him do some long trotting with you holding very light contact and not asking for much. Put him away for the day and let him think about it.

The next time you drive, take up that light, elastic contact right from the beginning and start building on what he's already learned. Start asking for turns and holding contact for longer and longer before, during and after the turn cue. Get him thinking and moving and listening to your hands without resenting them. Start throwing in some gait transitions with contact as well. This is going to be hard work for him! He's not used to carrying himself in a frame as you're asking him to and he's going to tire quickly. Keep your sessions short and do different things like jumping or in-hand obstacle work on alternate days so he doesn't get frustrated.

Remember that you don't want to make him feel as if you're asking him to move forward into a hard wall. Your contact is going to follow his mouth as he moves his head around, remaining constant and soft. You're just going to put it out there and wait while he tries various things- when he gives to it and moves forward, he gets an instant release to tell him he did the right thing. A release in this case is not dumping your contact, it's more like if he gives you two notches then you give him back one. You soften the quality of your contact, not throw it away, and then you take it up again and guide him. Be consistent, patient and kind! It's hard for a horse who's used to doing things one way to suddenly switch to another method but I think you'll both find it beneficial if you plan to show. I've helped quite a few people and horses make this switch and the first few lessons are always the hardest.

Leia


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Mar 14, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> The trick is to teach him that the bit is his friend and that you're not getting in his face so much as offering to hold his hand. Good contact should be like holding your child's hand- friendly, open, enjoyable physical contact by which you guide each other and share information. with you holding very light contact and not asking for much. Put him away for the day and let him think about it.
> 
> Leia


Very well put!


----------



## Blackwater Farm (Mar 14, 2011)

Thank you soooo much Leia! I really appreciate this advice. I have been driving horses all my life but they were mostly work horses and some saddlebreds that we used to pull our amish buggies but never did any showing. The saddlebreds we had to maintain good contact with but that was well, because they were saddlebreds! I really wish I could have a driving trainer but I dont know of anyone that is close to me that shows driving minis. I really feel like I could benefit from learning the "feel" of an experienced show driving horse. The bit that I use is just a plain half cheek driving snaffle, one that you can find just about anywhere! A 3 1/2" I do believe and it fits well. Here's a pic.






I had never intended on showing him so I never really put any importance on getting him into any kind of a frame. I really just trained him to drive to give him something to do. He was a rescue and I hated seeing him just sitting around doing nothing. Plus I thought it would benefit him to learn something because when I got him he was quite the wild little stallion! But he took to it like a mini to cart as they seem to be such naturals! The past week or so I have pretty much been doing what you have stated, just starting with light contact nad releasing a bit when he gives to me. Back in his wild stallion days when I was teaching him what ground manners were, I used Clinton Anderson's methods with him and he became very soft and light to contact. Of course this was before the decision to teach him to drive. Now he is still just very soft and light to the contact and knows gee and haw (from my work horse days!) and several other voice commands. Now that I want to show him looks like I'm going to have to pretty much retrain him all over again! Now another question is this, I see alot of people with cavesons on their bridles, mine does not have one, should I get one? Thanks again for all the advice!!!

PS - If theres anyone in Southeast NC around the Ft. Bragg area that has a show driving mini that wouldnt mind giving me a lesson or two please PM me!!!!!!!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2011)

Blackwater Farm said:


> I really wish I could have a driving trainer but I dont know of anyone that is close to me that shows driving minis. I really feel like I could benefit from learning the "feel" of an experienced show driving horse.


I think you're right but don't worry about the mini part- if anything, it would be better if you could find a carriage driving trainer instead of a mini trainer and take a few lessons with a full-sized horse! Too many mini drivers don't do it "right" and it sounds like you don't really want to drive show-style anyway, not with checks and all the Saddlebred-esque fire and such. You just want a good, solid, correct, nicely-moving little guy who goes on contact.



A carriage driving trainer can show you that!

Check the ADS website and see who's in your area. I think you're in driving central but I don't have specific names for you there.



Blackwater Farm said:


> The past week or so I have pretty much been doing what you have stated, just starting with light contact nad releasing a bit when he gives to me.


Sounds like you're on the right track.





Your bit looks okay, at least it's not one of the cheap, poorly-made ones that pinch on the sides and have an unbelievably massive joint in the middle. Many horses aren't too fond of single-jointed snaffles but I think at this point we'd be silly to go lunging off after a new bit as the cure to all problems when he needs to learn what contact is first.



If his mouth doesn't quiet down after he understands what you want then we can look at a new bit as a possible solution.



Blackwater Farm said:


> Now another question is this, I see alot of people with cavesons on their bridles, mine does not have one, should I get one? Thanks again for all the advice!!!


Show rules often require a cavesson so most show or CDE harnesses come with one. I know that's not standard on work or draft-style harnesses and I personally am perfectly happy driving without one so check the rules for the show you plan to attend and see if they ask for a cavesson.

Some people will tell you they are to keep the horse's mouth shut but I believe that's what training is for and refuse to strap his mouth shut so tight I cut off circulation.



Now don't get me wrong, it can certainly be used to encourage the horse not to gape. But at this stage let's deal with the training issue and the mental component of his fussing before moving to a physical reminder that we want his mouth shut. It's my personal feeling that if a horse is gaping he's telling us he's uncomfortable or doesn't understand and physically preventing him from expressing that concern doesn't take away the cause, it just prevents him from telling us about it. I would only use a tight cavesson on a horse who is bored and plays with his mouth constantly, or one member of a pair who can't resist trying to bite his partner.

The other reason for using a cavesson is to keep the blinders close to the face so the horse doesn't catch a glimpse of the cart behind him but if you trained him with an open bridle in the first place that isn't an issue. (Hence why I'm not worried about it with my guys when we're only driving for pleasure. They know darn well what's back there!



)

Leia


----------



## ClickMini (Mar 15, 2011)

Great posts, Leia!


----------



## RhineStone (Mar 15, 2011)

Try a French link or a mullen mouth snaffle. The single jointed snaffle may be too much bit.

Myrna


----------



## MiLo Minis (Mar 15, 2011)

Leia has given you some good advice but before taking that advice IF you haven't had his teeth checked recently please do so immediately. Take care of that before even worrying about anything else. I do think you may need to consider a different bit as well. If you haven't really been driving him in contact you haven't really been "using" the single jointed snaffle and now that you are "using" it he may be finding it more uncomfortable than he would another type of bit. I really haven't come across very many Minis that are truly comfortable with a single jointed snaffle - they just don't have the room for it in their mouth. If you are sure that your hands are working the way they should be and you aren't seeing gradual improvement (or he gets worse!) with the exercise that Leia has suggested then I would look for a different bit and I wouldn't leave it too long before I did so or you could cause more issues than you are trying to solve.


----------



## Sue_C. (Mar 15, 2011)

> Try a French link or a mullen mouth snaffle. The single jointed snaffle may be too much bit.


Ditto... I would normally say just stay with his usual bit, but in this case, he has never been taught to accept any bit "truly", and this is a MUCH more severe bit that the mullen or french link, so why get him annoyed and make the avoidance a habit, rather than let him see that all bits won't act like a nut-cracker on his jaw?


----------



## Blackwater Farm (Mar 15, 2011)

Lori, to answer your question about his teeth, yes I get his teeth checked regularly and he just went to see the horsie dentist in October! So I know that isn't the problem. I think I just started this problem from the beginning. When I first made the decision to train him to drive the only equipment I had was a surcingle some lines and his halter. He was very bad about taking a bit in the beginning so I did ALOT of his ground work in his halter. If I could use a bitless driving bridle I would, if there was such a thing! Is there? He has just become so soft mouthed which would be great if he was 1000 lbs and I rode western! Like I said though I am only doing one driving class in a local show series. It's not AMHA or AMHR. But if I am going to take the time to take him to a show no matter what level I want to make sure that my horse is comfortable with what I am asking him to do. He has been an excellent pleasure driving horse and has gone through every obstacle I have ever pointed him at. If you live in NC then you probably know about Mule Days in Benson. If he can drive through all that without so much as batting an eyelash then I know there is nothing he can't do!!! So I thought we would give the showring a try!!! I am going to continue with the methods suggested to me above by the wonderful Leia (THANK YOU!) and see where it goes. If I don't see an improvement I will consider switching his bit. Can I use an eggbutt french link snaffle? That should be fine right? I think he would make a great CDE horse or obstacle driving. He has a broken crest though, is that something that he would be faulted against?? Thanks again ya'll for all your help!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2011)

Blackwater Farm said:


> He was very bad about taking a bit in the beginning so I did ALOT of his ground work in his halter. If I could use a bitless driving bridle I would, if there was such a thing! Is there?


There is, but it's not legal in any sort of competition and (right or wrong) is an extremely hotly debated topic in driving circles. I'd suggest not going there!



If he's been having problems right from the beginning even holding this bit however, I'll revise my opinion and say yes, you should try a different bit. My boy hated both the single-jointed snaffle and a mullen but there's not much to object to in a French Link.



Blackwater Farm said:


> I am going to continue with the methods suggested to me above by the wonderful Leia (THANK YOU!) and see where it goes. If I don't see an improvement I will consider switching his bit. Can I use an eggbutt french link snaffle? That should be fine right?






Girl, there are folks on here who know way more than I do; I just happened to have a lot of time on my hands last night.




You can use an egg-butt. They aren't driving bits but they're safe enough and if he goes better in one that's what you should use. French Links are hard to find in half-cheek.

Leia


----------



## Blackwater Farm (Mar 16, 2011)

I didn't think you would be able to use a bitless driving bridle in competition and Lord knows I dont want to start anything!!!! I was just wondering for pleasure sake if there was such a thing!! Come to think about it I think there might be some safety issues that would come into play with one...Like I know alot of people dont use checks but I do, I keep it as lose as possible but I use one to prevent my horse from throwing his head down and getting a rein caught around a leg or something else, which is just my luck! I use blinders too but thats pretty much because I dont have an open bridle, I would probably use one on him if I had one! But anyways, thanks again for all the info. I really appreciate it. Back to something you had said earlier, there are alot of great carriage drivers around Southern Pines which is decently close to me. I may have to check that out. I just dont have any friends who drive so I dont really know how to contact someone who would give lessons. I will have to ask around though!!!


----------



## Knottymare (Mar 16, 2011)

another excellent discussion! Thanks, everyone!


----------



## Jetiki (Mar 16, 2011)

there are a ton of awesome driving people in the Southern Pines area. check out the Moore County driving club http://www.moorecountydrivingclub.com/ they have a lot of activities and not all are competitions they do some fun stuff also. I am in Upstate SC and a member of the Carolina Carriage club, we are on the opposite side of the state but a lot of our members travel to Southern Pines for activities and competitions.

karen


----------



## CZP1 (Mar 16, 2011)

You have some excellent driving trainers in the area if you are willing to drive. If you want a trainer with "mini" experience Muffy Seaton comes to mind at Four Fleas Farm. As Karen (Jetki) mentioned there are a few driving clubs in the area that you should check out and may want to join. I am in the Whips and Wheels Driving Club that is mostly a pleasure club. It has members from the more East of Charlotte, Mocksville, Salisbury area. I drive with a buttrfly french-link snaffle we used to drive with the bit like you showed and he did wouldn't close his mouth.

As for the check we don't use one only for "decoration". I put the reins through the strap on the breast/neck strap to keep the reins from flapping. Everyone is different and if you can actually have someone come and evaluate you and your mini if might be quite beneficial as well as finding someone who has a bit that you can borrow and see if (bit) is the problem. You can never learn too much. Good Luck


----------



## Blackwater Farm (Mar 17, 2011)

Blue Boy and I had a GREAT drive today! I am so proud of him, he learns so quickly. We did some work at the walk with just light contact and asking him to give to the bit, there was some chomping in the begining but after a few go rounds he really started to get what I was asking. We did a little work at the trot also, large figure eights mostly, practicing going from a working trot then I would open my fingers a bit and ask him to extend out which he did well and then I would close my fingers and he would come right back down to the working trot. He still did some chomping especially around the turns but I am seeing improvement. Not as much of the gaping mouth with head shaking like I was hanging on his mouth! He is such a quick learner. It has been so long that I have tried to teach him something new that I almost forgot that! I feel like I should never stop teaching him new things because he is such an awesome boy and so very willing to please! Why did I geld him again??? I am no breeder thats why!!! Because that is what was best for my baby and I am happy with him just as he is! Thanks again to everybody for their great advice! I am also going to check out some of the local driving clubs and see if I can find some upcoming events to go watch or help out at!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 17, 2011)

Congratulations!! It sounds like you're on the right track for some wonderful new adventures with your boy.







Blackwater Farm said:


> We did a little work at the trot also, large figure eights mostly, practicing going from a working trot *then I would open my fingers a bit and ask him to extend out which he did well and then I would close my fingers and he would come right back down to the working trot*.


Just a word to the wise from experience- one major switch with driving horses for me was realizing that you don't get more speed and impulsion by loosening the reins. If I wanted my riding horse to run I'd throw the reins at him, signal him with my legs and lean forward as he took off. When Kody got to the point of being ready for speed in the obstacles at CDE'S I gave him rein...and nothing happened. Sometimes he'd slow down in fact! It took me awhile to figure out that if I wanted impulsion and big strides I had to _increase_ my contact, build up his energy into the bridle, and _then_ you can open your fingers a bit and unleash them! The same is true for extending. Most of the time all you're going to get with opening your fingers is a faster trot which may, if you're lucky, have a little longer stride. If you want the horse to lengthen you must compress their frame first with their hindquarters properly under them, then open your fingers and allow them to lengthen both frame and stride. Eventually they will be strong enough to give a powerful extension and at that point you don't even have to open your fingers, you just hold them in the same frame and drive them forward. It will take a long time to get there but for now, just be careful about setting the precedent of opening your fingers to go forward as in reality he might be dumping his energy into the ground and "running" on his forehand rather than lengthening.



Blackwater Farm said:


> He is such a quick learner. It has been so long that I have tried to teach him something new that I almost forgot that! I feel like I should never stop teaching him new things because he is such an awesome boy and so very willing to please!


That is my greatest joy with my two and why I keep training them to be better and better long after they are "done."



You can't beat that feeling!

Leia


----------



## Tatonkas Dream (Mar 18, 2011)

Leia I've said it before and now I'll say it again - you should write a book... you are SO skilled at putting into words what many of us might experience but not be able to say in such a great way... over and over again for years now I have LOVED reading your posts.

Thank you for putting more info out for all of us to read and learn some more!


----------

