# Nationals



## Echo Acres (Sep 15, 2008)

Well, I might be putting my foot in my mouth




as I see a lot of you that already posted had big trainers show their horses. But I know a lot of people felt the same way I did and just needed to say it.

I was very disappointed to see that this year seemed VERY political! Even people I talked to that watched it from home said the same thing. There were a couple of big trainers that won almost every time they entered the ring for halter, and one in driving. Now I have to say that each of these trainers did have nice horses and well deserved most of those wins. But some of them, give me a break... they did not deserve them one bit. It was who was at the end of the line.

I came from the big horse world and left because of this same reason. It was not enjoyable any more to show the way it was going. Are we headed in the same direction? I hope not!

No I am not saying this because I didn't do well at nationals. I was very happy with how our horses did. We brought 3 horses plus one with a trainer. All but one of those horses took a top ten. We came home with 5 top tens including 6th in futurity out of 35 and 9th in driving out of 32. I just feel that if this is the way things are going to go, then you will see less of the "little people" and pretty soon the attendance will go down.

Any one else feel the same way?


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## Leeana (Sep 15, 2008)

I honestly think for maybe 85% of the classes "that" or "those" trainers did have the best horse in the ring BUT that other 20-15 % of the classes i seen kind of made me go hmm. Then agian, i was seeing these horses from the stands ...i was not 10 feet away looking at the horses. I was seeing them from a hundread + feet away and from one side at an angle.

What did amaze me....was when the handler(s) changed and the horses didnt change and in the same class following the trainers placed the same..but the horses didnt. Kind of found it interesting that a horse with trainer A won sr champion and trainer B won reserve sr champion. Then in grand Trainer A handled the sme horse he handled in sr champion and got GRAND and then trainer b went back in grand with a different horse (that was beaten by the horse they handled previously in sr champion) and that horse ended up beating the horse trainer B handled before (that had beaten this horse class prior)...just another one of those hmmm moments. Only thing that changed there was the handler...not the horse or that horses presentation in that class.....couldnt help but roll my eyes. I cannot explaine it but for those of you who seen it know what i am talking about.....

But i must say, for the most part those big trainers DO in most cases have the best horse in the class...


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## Echo Acres (Sep 15, 2008)

That is exactly what I am talking about. Like I mentioned in my first post. MOST of the time they deserved it...the other times I feel it was who was in the ring, not the horse.

Thanks for posting. I don't mean to start something with this thread, just wanted to get a point across.


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## horsefeather (Sep 15, 2008)

Sure would like to comment, but I better not.

Will have to say 1 thing. During liberty, watched the 3 judges while 1 liberty horse was in ring. Wonder how they got 3 cards when 1 judge didn't watch the class. He glanced up 2 times, that's all. Didn't watch the horse being turned loose or the catch???? Enuff said before I get myself in trouble!!

Pam


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## Boinky (Sep 16, 2008)

I hate to say this because politics plays in everything and it's not always about politics when a trainer wins BUT This is year 3 for me going to nationals and of course every year there is some politics but i think this year was the worst yet by far that i've seen and the most obvious. This year was the type of year that make me wonder why the little guys even bother to try (and we have to remember it's the little guys that truly bring in the entry fee's and make this registry run).

Often times the trainers DID deserve it and i wouldn't take all the wins/places away from them but i also watched many classes that those trainers placed even when they FAR from deserved it. I also watched at least one halter class where the horses were obviously over. When i saw a horse i knew was 38' being the smallest horse in the class (quite obviously) it really made me sit up and take notice. Every year there is a lot of measuring concerns but i've never honestly noticed just because i never knew the horses and what their heights were supposed to be.

We go with no expectations and I could care less if i came home with anything (although placing is definatly not unnappreciated..lol). I just feel this year made me wonder why anyone would waste so much $$ when they know they have absolutely no chance no matter what happens...

I noticed in the stake classes, although they tended to be smaller and the same politics were oing on for the few few placings the judges were pinning horses they didn't even look at all week before. We actually placed a few top tens with ours in the stakes when we got squat all week. I was psyced about that and all three of my boys beat at least half the horses in their classes so that's always good.. but DEFINATLY politics.

I'm truly surprised more people haven't commented on it there was SO much grumbling in the barns and stands (even non horse owners/spectators were rather upset and annoyed).

I do think that the judges could ave been picked a little better and hope they find better for future years.


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## Echo Acres (Sep 16, 2008)

Boinky this is also our 3 year attending and agree with you 100%


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## tagalong (Sep 16, 2008)

> I'm truly surprised more people haven't commented on it there was SO much grumbling in the barns and stands (even non horse owners/spectators were rather upset and annoyed).


Just to demonstrate how differently people see things, friends of mine who were there in the stands and in the barns felt the judging was fair and rarely had an issue with it. Which was unusual for them.





I even saw a couple of those high-end trainers get the gate without a ribbon many times - you can check that for yourself at horseshowsonline.com under the trainer results - and uncheck the box that says _only list classes where I placed_...

Erica was one who kicked butt at Nationals this year - deservedly so, IMO - and yet when the judging is declared to be lousy, political etc. doubt is cast upon her horses as well...





As with any horse show - you pay for those judges' opinions for that day or days... and it is a given that you will not always share that opinon...





As far as measuring goes... I watched a couple of Over driving classes where a very nice moving and very fancy horse won - who seemed to tower over all the others... especially noticeable in the line-up...



but whatever.

But if you are not down in the ring judging the horses thay can look very different. A few years ago at AMHA Worlds, some were fretting about how well this one light-coloured filly was doing - winning every class she was in. Of course she had Mister Big Name Trainer at the end of the lead shank - and so it was deemed political and unfair etc. I had watched one of those classes from the stands and also wondered how she won it...

I was in the washrack with one of our horses and glanced over to see one of Mister Important Trainer's barn help shampooing that filly. Or I thought it was her - and had to ask. OMG. Standing there next to me in the wash rack, wet, miserable, shivering, hunched up and feeling sorry for herself - even then she was lovely. Stunning.

Out in the ring strutting her stuff - she would have been even more so. Sometimes what you see from the stands - _or think you see_ - is not necessarily the true picture... I learned that.


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## Echo Acres (Sep 16, 2008)

I did not check out Ericka's overall status, but she was not the one that really stood out in my mind when I wrote this. I did see some of her horses up close and personal and thought they were very nice looking horses. I also know what I have seen from on the board, and I know pictures don't show everything, but have really liked what I have seen. I even cheered her on a few times when I heard her placed.

As far as watching in the stands. I do totally agree with you. It can look a lot different and it can depend on what angle you are at. But a couple of times I took the bennifit of the doubt and I went from one end of the stands to the middle, then to the other end. I also went down below and checked out a couple in person, up close. After all that on a handful that come to mind, I still don't agree with how they did. I know I am just one person's opinion, but I spoke with several trainers and "little people" and out of say 20 different farms I only heard 1 say they thought the judging was fair (I don't like to use that word). Even one farm that did quite well and had connections to one of these big time trainers thought that the judging was off.

Enough of my grumbling....there is always next year and hopefully things will be back on track!


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 16, 2008)

To a certain extent this sort of thing is unavoidable.

A lot of us here have watched Erica grow up...she is one of our "Forum Babies" and we _know_ she not only has good horses, breeds good horses etc but she obviously has an eye for a good horse as she buys good horses and sells good horses.

Therefore we have an expectation of her to _have_ good horses.

See??

It's a little too easy.

Yes, if I were judging Erica I would automatically assume she was going to put a good horse in front of me..

Now, this does not mean that I would just hand her first place, but it does mean I would look at her horse with the automatic assumption that it was going to be a good one.

Whether or not the animal is over size is not the Judges problem, BTW, I think we all do know that??

Short of having a load of strangers in white coats showing the horses, how can you avoid Judges (who, believe it or not are human) from recognising people and making assumptions about them??

Oh and Erica, sorry about using you like this, but you are "ours" my dear, so we are allowed!!!


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## minimomNC (Sep 16, 2008)

Since the OP stated in her first post that she was talking about big trainers, I don't think Erika fits in this thread. Personally I think several times, she was placed to low or not at all and deserved better placings. I did get to watch all of the amateur, futurity and some of the open. I could tell a marked difference in the judging in all three. But then again it is one persons opinion no matter what we think. And with AMHR's bizarre way of calculating placings, no wonder a lot of people were confused. Either way it was a good show and hopefully we will all be back next year to enjoy it again.


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## Karen S (Sep 16, 2008)

Good Morning,

I would like to remind everyone that is complaining about placements or winners....next time you have a question cocnerning the placement of a class at a National show go look at the judges score cards they are at the show office for ALL to see. Take a piece of paper and a pen with you. With the MOS system you will see that it's not all political all the time. Placements on judges cards can be all over the place. I know I've been there wondering how I got certain placings when I did.

I get tired of hearing and reading these type of post year after year about the trainers. That's their job. What do you want? To BAND every trainer from attending a show? If so, then come up with a solution or a proposal that say they can come to a show but can't handle a horse in the show ring then lets see what happens. There were a lot of nice horses, but also a lot of horses that weren't conditioned or groomed to the point of what the trainers had in their hands. What they do everyday to conditioned horses is a lot different than those of us that have to work a full time job and then come home to work horses. I know for a fact that some of those horses are worked twice a day for at least a month before the show to put the peak condition on them. We just don't take the "extra" time to do it with everything else a family has to tend to.

I can also say I saw some of those same trainers get the gate with some very nice horses, but then again what we see in the stands isn't exactly what we see right in front of a judge. I have gone back to judges after a show and ask why I didn't place higher. Some will say it took too long to set up (my fault yes) some will say that the horse didn't have the "spark" that they were looking for. Heck even at Congress this year one judge kept telling me over and over how lovely my mare was and that he liked her but got fourth in a class. Why? Because the ones that beat me were the better conformationly correct animal on THAT day. What I did notice most of the time that whether it was the Youth/Amateur classes or the Open classes to the Futurity, that the judges DID look at each horse when they came in. The point of judging is WHEN you walk through the start cones. You have to keep in mind that sometimes that's YOUR only chance to shine so make the most of it at THAT time regardless of how large a class is. I learned that a long time ago. Sometimes you don't get a second chance and then that's when people start screaming political.

Karen


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## JWC sr. (Sep 16, 2008)

As many of you that know us at Cherryville Farms, 4 years ago we stopped using trainers and hired a relatively unknown guy with 15 years experience as farm manager. His name is Jose Perez, a realy good guy that had worked as an assitant trainer for a number of trainers in our area that we had always admired. Jose had been always helpful and even won the "Most Helpful Award" from the Greater Houston MIniature horse club two years ago. He does a great job and is wonderful with the grandlids which is most important for us.





We dd so because we wanted our horses here at the farm where the grandlids could work with the respective horses on a regular basis as versus just seeing them at the shows. While still having the horses fit and ready for the show ring. It has worked well for our purposes and I personally have nothing to complain about. We got exactly what we were looking for. The first two years we were very competitive in the Youth and Ammy classes, but in the open classes did not do as well as I thought we should have.





Being as competitive as I am, I started questioning if we had made the right choice. All of the horses we took to the World Show still took top 10's and most were in the top five which was pretty durn good for us and our goal each year(Top 10).





Cindy ask me to really evaluate the competition and not be as barn blind as I had been and upon honest evaluation I came down like this.





Yes there is a certain amount of politics in any competition, but with that said I realized the trainers put a lot of time into picking and preparing the horses on thier show string each year. Most of them actively seek out and solicit the best horses in each class they show in. They have literally 1,000's of horse to pick from. That gives them an edge right there. With that kind of effort they SHOULD have the best horses in the sting in most cases, if they are any good. And most of them are.





They also are known to the judges and do get a second look where an individual may not. In some cases in really large classes in particular, sometimes individual people and/or farms that show what they breed get overlooked because of that second look. I do not have to like it, but it is just human nature. And with so many of the top horses beng in a national competition it is tough to compete with the professionals who have recognition and the best horses in many cases.





When an individual gets a win in any field against really good professionals be it business or horse showing they have to shine just a little brighter than the professionals do. Just a fact of life in the real world.





Is that wrong, In my humble opinion no it is not. That is the reason there are professionals in any field. I personally do not think most of the judges intentionally try to lean towards the pro's, they just used to seeing the top horses with one. So for us we have accepted that fact, focused on producing the best horses we possibly can and take the approach that we will keep running good ones at the judges till they finally pay attention. In the mean time we continue to "show what we breed " in most cases and compete in the Youth and AMMY (sparingly) classes and use them to judge where we are at with our breeding ptogram. Which is what we really love to do anyway. Additionally Jose i& Cindy are getting better and better at showing. preparing and producing competitive horses.





Acceptting that also makes it even more special when we do beat the pro's and get wins over them. It actually becomes a game to be honest that can be quite a bit of fun. It is all a matter of perception and approach for us. We know most of the trainers and there is always a bit of good natured harrassment that goes on even between them which is fun to be included in.





As far as the numbers going down because of this slice of politics, I hope and do not expect it to really effect things in the long run. As there are still youth and AMMY classes for folks to compete in without the trianers being involved. If nothing else people may just stay away from the open classes, which is more than likely the way it should be I guess.





That is my spin and I will say after watching so much of the National Show I thought it went off well and some really neat horses were exhibited by the trainers and AMMY's alike which is really cool to me. The competition gets tougher each year and because of that we all as members of AMHR & AMHA should be proud of our horses and ourselves. In my opinion it means we are moving in the right direction. The champions of 10 - 15 years ago could not compete with the show horses of today in most cases and that to me is exciting.


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## Irish Hills Farm (Sep 16, 2008)

Is there anyone here good with statistics?

What is the chance that a trainer can win x number of classes? Of course, you would have to look at no influence in the results and influence in the results. OF course, what would the influence(s) be?

It's to early.......


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## Reble (Sep 16, 2008)

This will never change. We have our opinons and that is that.





Judges have the last word.

I always believe if my horses come behind certain horses at a show we are doing good.

If we place first that is a bonus.

Trainers work hard for where they are and what they have accomplished, not easy training day in and day out. They put in a lot more hours than I will ever do.

I used to feel this way, untill I started going back to enjoying what I love best my horses.

Have come along way since we started showing.

Cannot change the judges, just change our attitude, it does help.

Just wanted to add, enjoyed being able to watch from Ontario Canada, that is a great accomplishment.


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## Frankie (Sep 16, 2008)

I am a no body, and I do use a trainer. The main reason is because I want my horse to be the best it can be and I am smart enough to know I can not do that.

So if my horse wins, is it because they were with a trainer, or because they were the best horse? On the flip side, and there is ths side in politics, did my horse NOT place because judge A and B have a fued going with my trainer from 5 years ago? Did judge B and C NOT place my horse because they have placed my trainer with different horses in the last 5 classes?

There is always another side, be it wtih a trainer or an ameteur, and considering judges are humans, it can and may happen both ways at any given show. That is why we have 3 judges, and that is why as exhibitors we pay them for their opinion.

If you think your horse is the best and do not need a judge to tell you it is or is not, do not enter them in a show. If you want judges opinions, by all means enter them in several shows to get a true idea just how good your horse may be. Get several opinions.

Trainers do get the pick of the best horses, that has and always will be the case. I do not believe it makes the placings political. I think it just affirms that some of the best horses continue to go with the trainers.

I love going to Nationals and wathcing all the beautiful horses, and meeting new people, seeing old friends,,,,,,maybe I do not see the politics because I make a choice not to, that is not why I am there.


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2008)

I have mixed feelings about these kinds of threads, as I feel they could take away from the pride some owners very rightfully feel about their horses' wins.

People pick their best horse(s) to send to professional trainers, and professional trainers know how to really condition and present a horse to its very best advantage.

I don't think many people feel politics were at play when their horse placed very nicely (and at Nationals, any placement is an accomplishment).

And, I'm not saying there are no politics at all, but I feel everyone who has a horse who got a ribbon at Nationals should feel very proud, no matter who took the horse into the ring


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## bingo (Sep 16, 2008)

I have to say I agree. Of course there will always be a few classes that make you go hmmm but only a few out of one hundred is not a big deal that could simply be the difference between being down in the arena or not seeing what the judge saw in that few seconds he may have looked at that horse.

I will say I think the open classes were pretty much right on other then a few hmm moments however the futurity well lets just say that had more hmmmm moments then not according to not just me but almost everyone I talked to even those who placed in the classes.



Of course seeing things from the stands or the out gate is a different perspective as we have the ability to watch the horses we choose to and keep our eye on them while the judge has to turn away to look at others a lot can happen or not happen on those few seconds.

That is what we pay for at a horse show. Opinions and they may not coincide with our own. Not every judge likes the type of horses we have even if they are very nice horses and of course we all know politics plays a huge part in it that is the reality. Another reality is more often then not the right horses place top ten.


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## backwoodsnanny (Sep 16, 2008)

First of all I think being able to see from home some of the atmosphere from Nationals was wonderful and though I didnt always agree with the placings it was great to be able to see at least a portion of what the judges were seeing. The only class I had a major question about was Liberty as I wondered if the judges actually were watching each horses performance and if they were why did they need to know what order the horse originally was in? That seemed a bit questionable to me that they were told this is horse # such in such in the lineup why would this be an issue if they truly were watching each horse? There were several horses in both Liberty classes that were handled by owners not trainers who I believe should have been placed but trainers ended up with the ribbons. Since nearly everyone was able to catch their horse it came down to preference but there were horses placed that did not use the whole ring and others who did not have any gait changes while some that didnt place did both things.just seemed odd to me that they kept being told where in the line up a horse should have been why would it matter if the judges were watching?


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## Ashley (Sep 16, 2008)

I kinda of wondered the same things. I noticed several horses that have taken National Champions last year and other years prior not doing very good and not even placeing.


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## ckmini (Sep 16, 2008)

We really noticed this too . . . . . . it became almost like a joke if trainer x and y didn't win a halter class. In my opinion many of their horses were not the best (but up there), and could have done well 10 years ago. There were not of the type of mini that has been winning lately, (this was true mostly in the under division).

I don't think it was "trainers" in general, I saw many trainers get the gate while trainer x and y always came out on top. As far as driving yes it was obvious who always seemed to win, but in all but 2 driving classes I watched she deserved the win or reserve. (which the main problem here was that the judges needed to learn how to judge this new class)

I don't want to take away from anyone's winnings, but there was some serious funny buisness going on in some of those halter classes.

edited to add that we were at the show, saturday through the following sunday, not just watching online. And the 1 horse we brought took 2 national champions, a 3rd, two 4ths, a 7th and an 8th, and only didn't pin in 4 classes, but then again we don't show halter.


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2008)

I watched a lot of the classes online and I surely couldn't have seen enough to place the classes based on the video! Not that I didn't LOVE seeing the classes -- I did!!! But, in the classes where everyone is in the ring "competing" at the same time and sharing the time on the camera with 25+++ or so other horses... there's no way us here at home looking at our computer screens saw more than a tiny fraction as much as the judges did. No way we could honestly place the class correctly based only on what we saw from this side of the computer...

Each year following Nationals and/or Worlds, we have these threads and from my perspective, there are some people who have / will post and who just make these threads reak of jealousy and sour grapes


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## bingo (Sep 16, 2008)

Jill I believe most are discussing what they saw in person?


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2008)

The members who made the comments that prompted me to post what I just did were NOT at Nationals


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## MiLo Minis (Sep 16, 2008)

I personally felt the halter classes that I watched (I was there in person



) were pinned appropriately as in most cases the top ten picks I made coincided with the judges' top ten picks with minor variations in the placings and yes, quite a few of those horses were handled by trainers. I know I was looking at the horses and not the handler when I chose my ten. There were other horses in the classes with competitive conformation but they were not being shown to their best advantage and didn't necessarily have that 'spark' of a champion that draws your eye.


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## Frankie (Sep 16, 2008)

Everyone's opinion can be different. For those of you saying,,hmm,,,,,,,after lets say Class A,,,,,,,,,maybe there were a dozen people saying hmmmmmmm,,,,,,,,,,but would have all picked different winners.

Many here have said, "in my opinion", or horse "deserved to win", and other comments close to the same.

My question is,,,,,what makes anyone right? Including judges? No matter how you look at it, the Judges are right. After all, once written on their card, the winner of that class he/she chose, makes him right. Heck, it's even announced that way, ribbons given out that way.





We all have the right to disagree, but in a competition where it is pretty much the opinion of a actual person, we should be thankful we are all different with different opinions, or there would be NO NEED for competition.

Or,,,,,,,we could have a National Contest on LB where it would take about 6 months to finish one class while waiting for all to vote, get on line, and argue their case why their opinion is the right one.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 16, 2008)

minimomNC said:


> Since the OP stated in her first post that she was talking about big trainers, I don't think Erika fits in this thread. Personally I think several times, she was placed to low or not at all and deserved better placings. I did get to watch all of the amateur, futurity and some of the open. I could tell a marked difference in the judging in all three. But then again it is one persons opinion no matter what we think. And with AMHR's bizarre way of calculating placings, no wonder a lot of people were confused. Either way it was a good show and hopefully we will all be back next year to enjoy it again.


I haven't read all the posts but I will go back and do so. But I just wanted to comment on this. I was watching online, so not there showing and not in the stands, but I can tell you that SEVERAL times, especially in Ammy, I thought Erica got screwed! I couldn't believe some of the horses that placed above hers. Sometimes I thought it was reasonable, but for the most part I thought they were very tough on her. Just my opinion.


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## Marty (Sep 16, 2008)

I had a nice ring side seat here at home and I learned plenty.

(edited to add hey Parm, we must have been watching the same classes)

Since you brought up Erica, not sucking up or anything, but in the first place, she can totally carry off wearing yellow! She had her share of stiff competition and I think she placed fairly well most of the time nice job well done, but I did see her get royally screwed in one class that I couldn't understand. She was beaten by a ribby bone rack with zero neck who just wasn't a nice horse in my opinion that I would have placed at all. I was like you have got to be kidding me. I didn't get that.

There were a couple of men that I swear were down right evil acting towards their horses. I had to gasp at the way they were being handled and wondered if they realized they were on camera. I could only imagine what goes on behind closed doors.

I did love watching the showers that showed actual affection for thier anmals and that had that special connection with them, and also the ones that entered the ring that actually looked like they were happy to be there. I kept watching some little gal from Florida, don't know who she was, showing quietly as can be, no big exagerrated chicken dance, just nice and quiet and it was amazing to watch how her horses never took their eyes off of her and obviously loved what they were doing. I loved watching Annette and how she got way down to give her little weaner scratches and pets.Too cute. I loved watching the Sansavere family. They brought tears to my eyes. What an incredible bunch of kids they have.

My overall take however was that I learned the importance of wearing an iron clad support bra. There were quite a few bouncers in there!


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## whitney (Sep 16, 2008)

It would be interesting to see the number of horses entered by professionals.

Marty I was another that learn a TON by watching. The only thing I couldn't understand was the way they had them line up talk about a ZOO. What happended to a straight line those poor exhibitors had no way of knowing WHERE the judges were at any given time. Also the way they have their horses trot through the 2 judges talk about sour faced horses the majority had ears pinned and were jumping all over the place, not pretty at all.


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## txminipinto (Sep 16, 2008)

LOL! Marty! Yes, it's very important to wear a good support bra no matter what your size is!!



Duct tape them if you have too!

Now, I originally wasn't going to touch this topic as a trainer, but some people brought up some points that I want to address. First and foremost, there is no reason with an arena that size that we have to put horses and exhibitors on top of each other! This was a problem in a couple classes at Congress as well. SPREAD us out! One rank horse and someone will be hurt!

Which brings me to my next topic - handlers being "evil" to their horses. I did not witness anyone being overly rough on their horses though I did hear about a driving incident that I didn't not witness so can't really comment on. However, I was a victim of being accused of being "too rough" with a stallion. To give some history, I have been handling a stallion that does not respect me or anyone else (another well known trainer had him and experienced the same problems), he bites, strikes, and kicks. And he does so with intent to injure not out of fear - he fears no one. My advice to anyone that thinks a handler is being too rough on a horse, offer to take the horse off their hands for a moment and give them a break.



I would have welcomed a break from the land shark! And it might be enlightening to say the least of the different levels of horses being handled by professionals. Its easy to look at some of the placid, gentle horses shown at Nationals and then turn around and see one that needs a very experience handler and say that the individual holding the lead is being too forceful with the horse. Yet, when it's your arm being grabbed in whole by a stallion you might think differently. :arg!

I will say the situation is being corrected this week. Permantly.


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## Vertical Limit (Sep 16, 2008)

Oh Brother! What can one say! One of our yearly political threads.



Of COURSE there are going to be politics. Politics are part of almost everything we take part in. I learned a long time ago that if you can't deal with it......DON'T SHOW. Were there a few dumpy winners? You bet. And as judges go, some were perpetuating some extremely bad miniature horse faults by placing these horses. But you know what? As long as you are paying for someones opinion that is the way it is.

I choose to show. I win more than my share, but when I don't I just think about the times I might have won when maybe I shouldn't have. When I come out of a class.......*It's OVER*. I choose not to get into a big POST MORTEM. It's on to the next class......business as usual. You either learn to let things go, take what is handed to you, or get out of showing. As long as judging horses is based on opinions, it will never change.



> I will say the situation is being corrected this week. Permantly.






I see the vet on the way to your farm!


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## Tucker (Sep 16, 2008)

I myself self was there at nationals and yes hmmmmmmmm go long ways. I myself have shown only one year in 5 years and Im going to start showing next year.but I see post like this makes me not want to show at all. But I have alot of fun and I learn alot from others I really dont mind if I dont place I go to have fun meet people. Im not going to let post like this get me to not want to show.Yes I understand what you guys mean I seen it first hand,but all in all no matter what you think it will happen year after year,theres nothing you can do.I got to know some wonderful people at nationals and alot of beautiful horses there



I could have taken all home with me. good job guys at your winings .


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## cre (Sep 16, 2008)

We are still a small registry, we need to fix this problem at that level. Convention is coming up .....


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## Erica (Sep 16, 2008)

First of all thank you for the kind comments about my horses




I don't love them or anything.... It's been yet again many hard and very long hours at the barn after "real work"/job, but I was very pleased with not only the way they showed but also the way they looked. Some got tired towards the end, but I would and was as well after two weeks on concrete stalls.

It is a special feeling to walk away championships on horses not only that you have conditioned, trained and shown yourself.......but also bred, even two or three generations deep. It's more intimate connection I think.

I really wasn't going to reply to this thread, as I'm not one to scream politics, but of course here I am typing so.....

First a huge pat on the back to everyone involved in putting together this show, Davenport does an outstanding job; and while yes everyone may not be happy, with 1600 or so horses there I doubt there has ever been a year that everyone does leave all hunky dory.

As has been stated before, trainers are paid to show the best they can get in their barn, to the best of their ability, in the best shape.........to promote their training center to the upmost they can. It's how they make a living! You won't find many trainers just taking in whatever they can to "pay the bills".....they want the best they can get. It's their reputation.

Yes there were some classes that you thought



.... as the horses were just not there even if handler was...but in several classes I think the top three could have been swapped 1-2-3 as easy as 3-2-1. And looking at the cards you could see that.......I had several classes were I was 1-2-3 and got 2nd, because winner got 1-1-6 along those lines and I'm glad Karen posted the thread about the judging system as it's really hard to get a grip on it, but once you understand it I think you do...I'm still much in limbo on understanding it, maybe I can finally learn it.

I paid for judges opinion and that's what I got. Yep maybe a few classes I felt I wasn't seeing what the judges were and thought I had a neat horse on my lead, but not something I'm going to let rain on my parade for the two weeks I look forward to the most each year!!

I felt for the most part that every judge at least looked at my horse - whether they liked it or not, that was THEIR opinion, I guess whether they even liked me was their opinion as well. I thought futurity judge did a neat job of pulling out what she liked to a cut, then pulling again for a lesser cut and then moving here and there sort of like they do in dog shows lining them up, comparing to others.......then taking a look, writing down the numbers, or moving them again.

I also found the judges nice and courteous......either with a good morning, lovely jacket, thank you ext.....I really appreciate it when they acknowledge you even in a simple way.

Most also if you were in a bind when they came by would offer to come right back and give you time to get your horse set to it's best again, another blessing, as it's the pits when your horse shows and shows and at the split second decides it's time to move all out of wack.

I've already made my comment about the ribbons on that thread and our center ring decorations way outclass anything I've seen.......just gorgeous as always and an essential part of the show I think, as that is what all the spectators in the stands or live feed see; very classy.

Competition is tough, has been and will be......and I don't think it will get any easier......I haven't seen it going that route anyway in the last few years.

I remember going to my first Nationals oh I think it was ten years ago..98, but who knows. Of course I thought my horses where unbeatable, I LOVED them, they were "my babies"........well I came home with ONE ribbon, a 7th in jumping. Of course I was 14 at the time showing in open and youth and whatever I could as I always have, and yes I thought well I'm no body, they didn't look at my horses close enough ext.......

But then I had to let it all sink in, went and really watched some classes, I mean REALLY watched some classes. My mind starting thinking how can I make my horses look like those, show like those ext...

It's all a learning curve, I sure didn't get where I am at by sitting back wishing I would have won it all my first year (matter of fact I'm glad I didn't as it put a strive in me to get horses, my horses looking their ultimate and in doing that made myself learn about different things such as conformation - teaching yourself to get a good eye for horse flesh) Really allowed me to make A LOT of very close friends by asking and watching what they do, people I can go to at a show, on the phone, email and ask questions that 10 yrs ago I would be too shy to even say Hi to.

Not sure why I feel the need to write the above as it's not the "question" posed by the posted, maybe it's the responses about how they feel they shouldn't show if so and so is always going to win. Take a look at what so and so is showing, how they prep it, how it's conditioned, ask questions.....watch, learn and take head to it. I do believe there are plenty of people if they would stick with it could really do well.

But it takes time (and I'm not meaning time to "pay dues" as some call it...) But it takes A LOT Of commitment and time to get horses ready to show, it burns some out quickly I think, before they have time to shine.

And yes Carin I feel the same way.....WHY can't they line up 4 (instead of 5) in a row..and yes I have told my directors about it as well and asked them to bring it up. I hate feeling cramped and even worse hate being in front of someone who likes to "stomp" to get their horses ears up as it makes my horses ears go back when they are only 2-3 ft behind me, or I have a horse doing a butt tuck from the noise. I also asked why we can't set up profile to the audience to spectators can get a view of the show better...they asked at the show and said the video set up couldn't get exhibitors that way, but I hope it is brought up and thought about and possibly thought about for next year, as I think the videographer is capable of moving to a different location and still getting horses in shots.

Oh well, my two cents...I'm still trying to catch up on unpacking and sleep, neither of which is full done yet.


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## Echo Acres (Sep 16, 2008)

I just wanted to edit this to say that I guess I was posting at the same time as Erika and see we touched on some of the same things. Sorry to repeat.

Several of you guys have good points, but I still stick to my initial posting. Yes I do believe the trainers have a lot of the best horses. They would not accept anything less because it is their name on the line. I am not saying that these horses didn't deserve to place, maybe should have been in the top 5 or on a rare occasion lower. However several of them placed 1st or 2nd.

I also agree that trainers have an advantage on us because that is what they do. They do spend more time, and they do learn those secrets and that is what makes them a trainer. I am not personally knocking down any trainers, and as a matter of fact we have had 1 horse with a trainer this year. (I will even go as far as saying that this horse was the only one out of our 4 that didn't get a top ten) Was I dissapointed, well yes. But there was a time she was not being worked for personal reasons and I feel that she was probably judged fairly as she had some big classes. The rest of our horses got top ten and they were 100% worked, and conditioned by little old me and my family. I am not trying to attack trainers in general. We are close friends with a few and wouldn't change that for the world.

I am mainly speaking of the halter classes, but as mentioned in here there were some instances that showed in driving as well. Now with these classes it is all about what the judges see and what they don't. They can't see every horse all the way around the arena. I have to say I was in the cart with my son in his driving class. Did I think he deserved to win, absolutely not. There were better horses and better drivers in his class. Do I feel he placed a little low, probably. I watched the video afterwards to get a better idea. There was one horse that was western country at best. (this was a country pleasure class) The horse had no headset (my son didn't really either) but the movement on that horse was terrible. It placed reserve. Yes I fully believe it was because of that youth's parent that was sitting in the cart with them.

Will this keep me from showing? At this point no. I enjoy it and really enjoy my time at nationals. But it always puts a damper on things when you see it get this bad. I understand that we are paying for those judges opinions on that given day. That is the name of the game. I am one that usually never argues with a judges decision. If I see something isn't right, which happens a time or two like a horse refusing to back in line up and then still taking first... I shrug it off and hope for something different next time. But this was so obvious it was hard not to say.

Someone on here mentioned to go look at their whole show record. So I did. They were in 80+ classes. 21 classes they had a 0 by there horse. After reviewing those classes 12 were championship classes and most of the time that horse was beat by another one of their horses. Most of the placings were 1st or 2nd with a handful being less than that. Can they have that many of the best horses in the nation? Possibly is it probable to have that many in one persons hands or is it politics, I will leave that up to you.

Also someone said I should go down and look at the book. I did in several classes. There was one of the judges that continuously placed only certain trainers, and there were several complaints put in the the judge. I also think when they select judges it should be thought over more carefully than it is. Last year all the judges were from one general area. I think they should select judges by a vote, then look to see what area's they are from and spread them out. I also think they should look at their abilities as weather their specialty is halter, driving and that sort of thing. This way your placings might be a little spread out, but you know the judges know what they are looking for. Judges are human, and they have their own personal preference, but they also have a job to do.

I only showed in a handful of classes (12 total with my son's included) But I did see/hear some very inappropiate actions from the judges. Such as talking amongst themselves while the judges cards are still out, talking for quite some time with some of the exhibitors while cards are still out, and comments they made as you came thru the judges coming into the halter classes. I don't mind if the judges make polite comments, and have a good time. I actually enjoy it. But this was excessive.

Oh and one last comment. I did not get to spend a lot of time in the stands watching classes. Most of my halter comments are based on seeing theses horses close up in the warm up ring.

Some of you might think I just need something to complain about. But I am not usually one to bring things like this up and a lot of you that post on here a lot notice I don't post very often and if I do it isn't to complain.


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## Just Us N Texas (Sep 16, 2008)

I was not there when our horses showed, and we did not place top ten in any of our futurity classes, and I and the rest of us did not really expect to. We knew the trainers were going to win largely because our horses were not as fit as they should have been. That was because this year has been a particularly busy one for us, and the horses have not gotten the attention a trainer could give them.

I will have to brag that one of "those" trainers had a horse that the girls had sold last year, and won every class he took her into. I will also go so far as to say I am sure she was justified in winning. If she had not been, she would not have been bought by her particular now owners for such a handsome price, nor would the trainer have had her.

On the other hand, there was one judge in particular that I don't think should have been. From many many exhibitors I have spoken to, he would not look at anyone unless they were a known trainer. He also did not have knowledge of fine carts. He walked up to one exhibitor and asked if her family had built her cart. It was like asking someone with a rolls royce if they had made it. Evidently he was not knowledgeable about such equipment or classes.

I know AMHR does it's best to get judges from different areas of the country to judge, but I would hope they would also check into their backgrounds to ascertain if they were knowledgeable about all aspects.

We did very well in driving with a green little horse that had only been hooked to the cart for two weeks before he went to Nationals. He placed 6th and 8th in his two driving classes, and had it not been for this particular judge, his placings would have been higher, because the other two judges used him much higher than he did. I am not downing him for that, just his opinion. But, I am downing him because he did not know his equipment or fine harness, and tended to only place known trainers when he could.


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2008)

Erica, what a good post and it illustrates one of the qualities I admire the most about you. You have a way of standing back, seeing the big picture, and finding a way to incorporate improvements into the things you yourself do. You also are so good to share your advice and insight with others


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## Echo Acres (Sep 16, 2008)

Erika- You should be very proud. To not only work so hard at training and conditioning, but to raise your own national champions or top tens is a big accomplishment. Plus you work. Very well deserved!

I am getting the impression that some people think I felt put out so to speak at nationals. That is not it at all. Since most of you don't really know me, I want to just tell you something quick. This was our 4th show season in minis and our 3rd year at natioanals. Two years ago we took 2 horses and came home with 1 ribbon. Last year we felt our horses weren't quite what they needed to be so we left them home and just came to watch. In the last couple of years we have bought and sold a handful of minis. Of course we are always learning and trying to improve. We did improve by buying a couple of new minis, most were bought as babies and we did the training and conditioning. A couple we bought from a trainer and left with a trainer. I have to say that we have made some really good friends and I have learned a lot from them. I can't thank them enough. This year we changed our feed program, conditioned a lot harder and put a lot more grunt work so to speek into our horses. It showed. We had what I would call a decent show season and I am very proud with our results from nationals. There was one class I thought we should have gotten a ribbon, but that happens a lot.

I honestly have to say in my geldings class he did not get a ribbon and that was a 100% on. I took a good look at his competion before the class and as we were headed in and it was a NICE class. My gelding did place in a large driving class which I was thrilled about, I was happy with just making the cut. But in my class I didn't make it. First off I chose to show in the open rather than the Ladies or Amatuer because the classes weren't so big. My choice 100%. I did not make the cut because of my driving and the fact my poor little guy had to pee really bad. I just didn't have the speed I needed.

So I am very happy with our results and it has nothing to do with my topic. Actually it has to do with more of the forum members. There were people out there like Erika who had really nice horses. And they did well, but myself and several others feel they just should have done better because they had the horse to do it!


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## tagalong (Sep 16, 2008)

> And yes Carin I feel the same way………WHY can’t they line up 4 (instead of 5) in a row…..and yes I have told my directors about it as well and asked them to bring it up. I hate feeling cramped and even worse hate being in front of someone who likes to “stomp” to get their horses ears up as it makes my horses ears go back when they are only 2-3 ft behind me. I also asked why we can’t set up profile to the audience to spectators can get a view of the show better…..they asked at the show and said the video set up couldn’t get exhibitors that way, but I hope it is brought up and thought about and possibly thought about for next year, as I think the videographer is capable of moving to a different location and still getting horses in shots.


I have always wondered why the halter horses were crammed in that direction at Nationals - when at AMHA Worlds they line up parallel to the long sides of the arena, using the entire width of the arena if need be and profile to most of the audience. And the videographer does not seem to have any trouble with that. More room for handlers and horses... and a better view for spectators as well.

So how did lining them up in those short, cramped rows start at Nationals?

*Marty* - I agree with your comments about the support bras!



There were a few exhibitors that needed some extra help there...





No drug testing at Nationals? I guess I just assumed there was - mainly because in past years (at Worlds) we spent far too long waiting for horses to provide a sample so we could get back to our stalls - and just assumed that was normal in the mini world...


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## funnybunny (Sep 16, 2008)

[SIZE=8pt]About this topic, I was at Nationals, and there was some very inconsistent judging. If you looked at the sheets posted, you could see there was one judge who was "way out there." This skewed the placings, in my opinion.[/SIZE]

I do not think the problem is the professionals. The problem is the judges. Some are just not "educated" in minis. Perhaps those judges should be given a "rest" from judging. How do you do that?

Dog show exhibitors have several yahoo lists where judging is discussed, names are named, likes and dislikes are discussed. If a certain judge is a "face judge" or the judge doesn't appear to know the standards for the breed, they are named and discussed. This gives people an opportunity to look at a particular show and decide if it is a waste of money to show to that particular judge.

In this tough economic time, this is a good idea because it saves driving to the ends of the earth to show under a judge who will dump anyone who is not a big name or who will put up an inferior animal.

Is there a judges list like that for horse people?

F.B.


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## ruffian (Sep 16, 2008)

I was there and watched many of the classes. Politics certainly was in play in most of the classes I watched. One judge in particular (and I did check the book) pretty much placed one trainer every time he brought a halter horse in the ring.

Another trainer had a horse rear up in line in driving, and fuss the whole time and still won that and many other classes. In only one class where they clearly didn't have a chance did they get the gate.

One of the judges didn't even watch the horses back in several classes, and in fact turned his card in before the class was completed.

Yes trainers do get their choice of horses. But they also take a few not so great horses to please a good client.

Erica really CAN pull off yellow, and looked beautiful in every class.

Had I been in some of the over classes I would have put the $100 up to protest a few horses. My friends mare is 37 1/2 and there were horses towering over them. But they wouldn't protest.

I guess I will be focusing on local/area shows for a few years. I know I won't bother going back to nationals unless there's changes made.


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## susanne (Sep 16, 2008)

I have to agree with Carole (Vertical Limit)...

Politics are a given -- get over it.

Judging itself is subjective, not a science.

However, I don't think it's too much to ask that each entry be giving a fair look, and the example of a judge not even watching certain horses in Liberty should, indeed, be noted and corrected.

Spreading the horses out more is an outstanding idea. Setting up for the video and/or the audience is good, but the most important thing is to give the entries and the judges the best chance possible to present and to view.

I know this would be unpopular, but I wish Nationals were an earned privilege and a showcase of winning horses throughout the show season, not just a gathering of anyone with the money to qualify and travel across the country. The classes at Nationals are way too big for any judge to truly appraise each horse in any class.

Why couldn't Nationals be the best of the best? Champions and first and second place winners at local rated shows (both amateur and open) would qualify for regionals, and top place winners at regionals would qualify for Nationals...

Or perhaps Nationals could stay as is, but there could be a separate Champion of champions show, for which winning horses would qualify with local and regional wins.

Just thinking...always a dangerous thing!


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## wpsellwood (Sep 16, 2008)

What I loved about the AMHA judging is that there was 5 judges and they threw out the high and low. So if you have someone playing favs they are getting dumped anyhow! Now they have changed it to 4 judges and one sits out each class. Anyway the point is I dont like 3 judge system I liked the 5 it seemed overall more fair.


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## Erica (Sep 16, 2008)

> I know this would be unpopular, but I wish Nationals were an earned privilege and a showcase of winning horses throughout the show season, not just a gathering of anyone with the money to qualify and travel across the country. The classes at Nationals are way too big for any judge to truly appraise each horse in any class.
> Why couldn't Nationals be the best of the best? Champions and first and second place winners at local rated shows (both amateur and open) would qualify for regionals, and top place winners at regionals would qualify for Nationals...
> 
> Or perhaps Nationals could stay as is, but there could be a separate Champion of champions show, for which winning horses would qualify with local and regional wins.
> ...



I think me personally I hope it doesn't go that route.

I can honestly say the quality of horses at AMHR nationals keeps getting better and better.......few and far b/w are the times when you can look out and see several horses not suited to compete.

I have always been under the impression (and still am) that AMHR is very family oriented.

You don't have to have trainers to get points on your horses to get them qualified to show, you don't have to travel to numerous shows all over chasing points or a win. You can be someone just starting out and go to Nationals for "fun" only if you want, for the experience, for the friendships and to learn.

While yes it sure would be nice to cut the days shorter - classes smaller, not have 4 hours of a single class. But you know, imo those people thought enough of their little horses to come and compete even if it's a class I'm not thrilled to sit and watch - obstacle or something (just not my cup of tea) just as me and halter may not be theres.

Nationals is about promoting the breed to me, and a place anyone can come to show any little horse they choose, as with anything it evolves, grows, changes.........and I'm sure it will continue to, but for making it a have to qualify to come show just call me old school in wanting it to stay as is.....as a place for anyone. Trainers, breeders, ammys, youths, a string of 30 or hauling up only 1; horses with thousands of miles under there belt or the ones that attended just the two shows.


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## txminipinto (Sep 16, 2008)

Yeah Erica!!


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2008)

Erica again


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## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 16, 2008)

Erica said:


> I think me personally I hope it doesn't go that route.I can honestly say the quality of horses at AMHR nationals keeps getting better and better.......few and far b/w are the times when you can look out and see several horses not suited to compete.
> 
> I have always been under the impression (and still am) that AMHR is very family oriented.
> 
> ...


Erica,

I've said this to you directly but now I'd like to say it publically. You, young lady, are wise WAY beyond your years.


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## susanne (Sep 16, 2008)

I agree, I wouldn't want to lose the "big family gathering" aspect of Nationals, which is why I mentioned my other idea of having a separate Champion of Champions type of show, where entry is earned not automatic.

In part, I mentioned this so people will stop and think about what they value about Nationals. I personally consider the politics to be just one of the challenges one faces in showing.

With the annual complaints, everyone needs to consider if things should be changed or if the good outweighs the bad.


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## JWC sr. (Sep 16, 2008)

I agree with Erica, Karin and the rest of you, don't try and fix what isn't broke. The National show is a lot of fun just the way it is and the participation is wonderful to say the least. The one thing I would like to see them add is a National Sale, I think it would be a big hit and a lot of fun.





As far as all the stuff about the judges, a friend commented to me one time when I was complaining about the placing of a certain judge that it was not the judge that was stupid, but us the exhibitors paying for thier opinion or getting riled about it. LOL





I think he may have had a point!!!


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## jeniemac (Sep 16, 2008)

Don't be sorry for your opinions. I have one also..

AMHR stands for American MINIATURE Horse Regestry.

What I saw out there this year were A M/S HR. (AMERICAN MINIATURE / SHETLAND HORSE REGESTRY). Someone ought to start one.

Don't get me wrong , the shetland crosses are totally beautiful but they don't belong at the AMHR shows.

The foundation miniature is being swollowed up by them and its a crime. The true mini is what should be at the AMHR shows.

If the breeding program keeps up with the shetland crosses there will be no more true minis. The miniature is a breed. The shetland crosses is a new breed. These big barns keep going they will kill the miniature breed.

I don't mind being beat by a true miniature that looks like a shetland ,but i get aggervated when a shetland cross beats me.

Put them in their own class or in their own show. Let us that breed true miniatures have our own breed and our show back.

J


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## bingo (Sep 16, 2008)

jeniemac said:


> Don't be sorry for your opinions. I have one also..AMHR stands for American MINIATURE Horse Regestry.
> 
> What I saw out there this year were A M/S HR. (AMERICAN MINIATURE / SHETLAND HORSE REGESTRY). Someone ought to start one.
> 
> Don't get me wrong , the shetland crosses are totally beautiful but they don't belong at the AMHR shows.


Well the thing is there is no Miniature Breed it is a height registry and not a breed. A Shetland cross is not a new breed in fact it is not a breed at all. Minis came from Shetlands so therefore minis are Shetlands just Shetlands that meet a height requirement.

I do agree it is a bit sad that a well conformed, well balanced mini no longer has a chance at Nationals as it takes a very extreme horse to do well but that is just the evolution of the breed.

While I am not saying they should not show at Nationals I wish a lot of them would also show at the Congress so they can boost the numbers for that show.


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## jeniemac (Sep 16, 2008)

bingo said:


> jeniemac said:
> 
> 
> > Don't be sorry for your opinions. I have one also..AMHR stands for American MINIATURE Horse Regestry.
> ...


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## jeniemac (Sep 16, 2008)

jeniemac said:


> bingo said:
> 
> 
> > jeniemac said:
> ...


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## disneyhorse (Sep 16, 2008)

Sorry, but miniature horses ARE Shetland ponies. If you go back, there are almost no such thing as a "TRUE mini"... I am amazed at how fast the quality is improving each year! Nationals just blows me away every year at the overall quality of all of the classes, from halter to driving. With the goal being to get the mini "more horselike" the extreme Shetlands are bringing more true motion (not the old dink-dink movement that short legged minis had) and an overall more-scaled-down look to the division. The "foundation/draft style minis" look like tiny Thelwell ponies, which I don't understand why people want to stick with that! That is an old-style kids-pony look, not a show-ring look that the ASPC/AMHR has tried to evolve with since its inception. The original Shetland ponies imported were the most refined ones the importers could find.

As to politics... yeah EVERY horse show will have SOME people crying! It's rarely the people who placed in the Grand class though





Andrea


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## jeniemac (Sep 16, 2008)

disneyhorse said:


> Sorry, but miniature horses ARE Shetland ponies. If you go back, there are almost no such thing as a "TRUE mini"... I am amazed at how fast the quality is improving each year! Nationals just blows me away every year at the overall quality of all of the classes, from halter to driving. With the goal being to get the mini "more horselike" the extreme Shetlands are bringing more true motion (not the old dink-dink movement that short legged minis had) and an overall more-scaled-down look to the division. The "foundation/draft style minis" look like tiny Thelwell ponies, which I don't understand why people want to stick with that! That is an old-style kids-pony look, not a show-ring look that the ASPC/AMHR has tried to evolve with since its inception. The original Shetland ponies imported were the most refined ones the importers could find.As to politics... yeah EVERY horse show will have SOME people crying! It's rarely the people who placed in the Grand class though
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## hahler (Sep 16, 2008)

And people wonder why i just trim feet and dont show


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## Sandee (Sep 16, 2008)

OK, I don't remember who said it but read the judges placings which you can do if you're at the show. The placings are calculated from all the judges to give just one placing for the class. Many at the show did not understand this. It's rather complicated and I sure can't explain the point system; but if each judge places a different horse in first place while 2 or more judges select the same horse for 2nd place then the 2nd place one gets the Championship.

Also the judges are human and can certainly make mistakes. I read their placings and was very happy to see that one judge liked my filly's performance in obstacle class so much that he put her in 5th placed. She didn't get any ribbons as I made the mistake of going between the wrong cones on the course. I'm not a trainer and no big names associated with me so his mistake was just that a mistake. I really was mad at myself for messing up after I saw what she could have had if I didn't mess up!





I must also add that many people discouraged me 2 years ago from going to Nationals saying it was all political. I went last year and stallion placed 4th in driving and I was thrilled. This year my filly got 3 ribbons and my stallion got a championship in Western Pleasure Driving 32" and under. It's easy to scream political but it's not ALL that way.


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## kathey (Sep 16, 2008)

I know everyone keeps saying that AMHR is a height registry and teh miniature horse is not a breed. If that is so then why does it state this on the front page of the AMHR web site...

The American Shetland Pony Club was founded in 1888 as a registry to keep the pedigrees for all the Shetlands that were being imported from Europe at that time.

It has expanded to four separate *breeds* under one club: The Classic American Shetland Pony, The Modern American Shetland Pony, The American Miniature Horse Registry and The American Show Pony Registry.

The AMHR National Championship Show is the highlight of the year determining the breed’s top Miniature Horses.

They keep stating the BREEDS.

I am one of those people that think the pure shetlands should not be hardshipped in the AMHR. You can breed the miniature horse, without the shetlands, to get the refinement sought after in the show arena. As AMHR states on their own web site they have expanded out to four separate breeds under one club...so are they wrong saying that a miniature horse is not a breed?

This is my opinon.


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## maestoso (Sep 16, 2008)

Let me start by saying that I love showing. I love the competition, I love showing my horse, I love the whole process. It is always nice to win, but i don't do it for the win or for the ribbon.

I agree with what Erica said about the benefit of Nationals being for everyone.

With that said, I ABSOLUTELY think that showing is political. The well known trainer will ALWAYS get the extra look, and the others might get lucky...... This is the way it is. I am not saying that the big trainer always wins. But I do believe 100% that if two horses were similar, the trainer would take the win over the unknown ammy. I think that even if the professionals horse wasn't quite as good, they would still, in many cases, take the win over the unknown ammy. However, I do NOT believe that if the ammy's horse is substantially better than the pros horse, they the pro would still take the win.

With that said, these are horse SHOWS. The quality of the horse is only half of it, and the way in which you present your horse is the other half. The pro trainers know how to show their horses to the best advantage, and they do it. They have shown under most judges before, they often know what the judges are looking for, and they take advantage of that. Also, a pro trainer isn't going to take a horse in the ring that they don't think deserves to be there. Their reputation is on the line, they are not stupid.

I have no problem or issue or complaints about "little people" hiring trainers to show their horse. It is not what I choose to do, but to each their own.

Politics is in EVERYTHING, end of story. You can minimize it, but it is always still there.

Think about how much time, effort, and work that these trainers have put in to get where they are today. After all of that, they would be cray not to take advantage of the benefits of being "known".

I am glad the pro trainers are out there showing. I am watching them, and learning from them.


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## MiniHunterHorseFan (Sep 16, 2008)

I think some of the big name trainers win all the time and they deserve to win, for instance our president Larry Parnell. For instance I always wondered, " why does he have to win all the time? Its got to be because he's our president." Then I was watching a Roadster class. I saw a beautiful high stepping pinto driven by a person dressed nicely in a bright red roadster silk and thought, "Now this person is really good." And you know what? It was Larry Parnell and I didn't even know it. Some of the big name trainers win because they REALLY are good. But then there are other trainers, not mentioning any names here, who drive really good and have great horses but wear the same plain blue jean jacket outfit to drive in country pleasure and do good, then put on a cowboy hat with the SAME outfit and win western country pleasure. How is that possible? I thought clothes really were supposed to be nice and fitting to the class?


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## txminipinto (Sep 17, 2008)

Regarding the AMHR vs ASPC/AMHR debate.......I'm sorry folks but the mini is not a breed. It's a height registry no matter what our webpage says. The shetland pony is a breed and as long as they meet the height requirement can be registered with AMHR. In fact, if you read up on your shetland history, many shetlands brought over were 38". ASPC/AMHR is where the AMHR industry is going. I recommend all of my clients to start seeking these double registered horses to add to their herds. One client has bought 3 in the last 10 months! Now, this isn't saying that an AMHR only horse can't do well at Nationals. I had an A stallion go top ten in both model and his age/height division, so a correct horse is still a correct horse regardless of the papers it carries. BUT.....if you want to stay competitive, you must study those who are successful around you and make changes to your program. That is also one of the services the "dreaded" trainers offer to their clients. Part of our job is to help improve your programs!!

Oh, and many of these ASPC/AMHR horses were at Congress.

Now, regarding clothes for various classes. When you have many horses, especially many driving horses, that show on the same night you don't always have time to go change clothes. So, you must wear clothes that are appropiate for all divisions or at least can be "changed" with accessaries. This is why you will never see me braid a horse for hunter or wear hunter type attire in the class. It's not required and I don't have the time or help to accomplish it.


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## stormy (Sep 17, 2008)

Sorry, this constant belittlement of the miniature horse as a breed just burns me every time. The american shetland also origionated from those long bodied, short legged, posty moving european shetlands, however, selective breeding and infusion of other breeds has changed the shetland and the miniature horse into two distinct types. It is a crime shetland can be dividied into foundation, classic and modern 'cause they can not decide what they want to be but Miniature breeders are forced to accept the modern type shetland as the standard for the miniature breed because most judges also own and raise the pony type horse. It has never helped a breed to "heat it up" historically. The shetland itself has remained a minor breed while the miniature horse grows in popularity so why should all be forced by a minority run registry to change to what many of us sure do not consider an improvement to the breed, by breeding miniature shetland ponies! There are a tremendous number of quality miniature horses out there, not posty moving, of excellent conformation and quality...the modern pony look is a change is direction, not an improvement to the breed.

It is also not a height registry when only certain breeds can be hardshipped in, not all who measure under 38".

That said horses hitting the wall, throwing drivers out of the cart, hitting other drivers horses, showing lame and still placing is a sham and sure does not make the registry or the breed look good. Perhaps knowing the world is watching will at least stop this kind of stuff.


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## Leeana (Sep 17, 2008)

> stormy Posted Today, 10:41 AM Sorry, this constant belittlement of the miniature horse as a breed just burns me every time. The american shetland also origionated from those long bodied, short legged, posty moving european shetlands, however, selective breeding and infusion of other breeds has changed the shetland and the miniature horse into two distinct types. It is a crime shetland can be dividied into foundation, classic and modern 'cause they can not decide what they want to be but Miniature breeders are forced to accept the modern type shetland as the standard for the miniature breed because most judges also own and raise the pony type horse. It has never helped a breed to "heat it up" historically. The shetland itself has remained a minor breed while the miniature horse grows in popularity so why should all be forced by a minority run registry to change to what many of us sure do not consider an improvement to the breed, by breeding miniature shetland ponies!
> 
> It is also not a height registry when only certain breeds can be hardshipped in, not all who measure under 38".
> 
> That said horses hitting the wall, throwing drivers out of the cart, hitting other drivers horses, showing lame and still placing is a sham and sure does not make the registry or the breed look good. Perhaps knowing the world is watching will at least stop this kind of stuff.


Your constant belittlement of the shetland breed burns me every time too. The miniature horse is the breed for EVERYBODY..there is no reason why the shetlands should not carry and show AMHR papers, im sorry that just because YOU do not like them is not a good enough reason. I believe the shetland blood is responsible for where the miniatures are today and for back when they really started getting refined..necky..leggy. Instead of being in denial about where and how our miniatures got to where they are today...how about we open up our minds and put our pride aside and be thankful for the REAL reason our miniatures look like they do today and look to the future to what our miniatures can look like in the future with just a little more shetland influence. If you breed a draft horse to a draft horse...you will not get an arabian




. There has to be a little something else in there...



> There are a tremendous number of quality miniature horses out there, not posty moving, of excellent conformation and quality...the modern pony look is a change is direction, not an improvement to the breed.


Yes, there is a tremendous number of 'shetland bred back in the pedigree' miniature horses out there...you are free to breed them and own them as you or i or anyone wishes to.


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## stormy (Sep 17, 2008)

Ahh but you are mistaken, I do like them. I raised Shetlands at one time, enjoyed them and working with them as shetlands. Losing what the miniature horse has become is a tragedy. Both breeds have their place just as Standardbreds and Morgans who have the same roots. Their is enough refinement and beauty in the Miniature horse without returning to the Shetland. Keep the Shetland and the Miniature horse as diverse and seperate breeds as they have become, or judge both types on a level playing field, or heaven forbid, class them by type as the Shetlands do.

I do not dislike the Shetland at all, I dislike losing the Miniature horse.


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## Echo Acres (Sep 17, 2008)

I have to say I am not totally one way or another. But do have some feelings about the shetlands winning everything at nationals. Again this is just my opinion, doesn't make it right or wrong. 3 years ago at nationals it seemed the real pony looking horses were winning everything even one that was real hackney looking. It really burned me because this was not pony nationals. Even people that are raising double registered horses weren't happy. The last couple years, yes I see pony type horses winning, but not as much as that year. I am one that would like to see them stay a little more seperate, just personal preference.

My feelings on the ponies at nationals...I don't really think unless they are real miniature looking that they belong. They have shetland pony congress and I feel that is where they should shine. Leave the miniature horse nationals to the miniatures. Or seperate them out. We have a 2 year old filly who measures 36" we have had the hardest time winning with her. Everyone including many top trainers and breeders say they like her so much, yet she doesn't place at the top. Why because at her age she is competing with the ponies. It is really frustrating.


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## Ashley (Sep 17, 2008)

The pony thing gets me to. Ponies are minis if they measure under, if they do they deserve every right to be at nationals. I have two ponies now, if either measures in next year they will be brought over to AMHR, and should I ever so you bet they will be out there.

As for a horse not winning because its up against ponies, BS the best horse will win. My suggestion is to step back and take a good look at your horse and make sure you really are not just being barn blind.

I would much rather watch and see ponies, they are alot more fun to watch and see then the minis. Alot of the issues people complain about are the reasons I have pretty much lost intrest in showing AMHR and the minis in general. But if I ever get out there again and bold enough it will be with the Shetlands.


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## Jill (Sep 17, 2008)

For those of you who think the shetland-minis have an edge in the show ring, and you want to do well in the show ring -- I guess you've identified an opportunity to improve your showstring and the chances of getting the good ribbons





I admire the look of many of the shetland-minis and am sure I will be incorporating this into what we have going on at some point


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## disneyhorse (Sep 17, 2008)

Just out of curiosity... can someone post some pictures of horses that they think are "mini only" but are just as nice as a Shetland? Personally I don't see a difference between the two. some you really can't tell. But I don't see what people get so defensive about "protecting the TRUE mini... can you post a picture of a TRUE mini please so I can see what some of you are striving for?

Thanks,

Andrea


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## mininik (Sep 17, 2008)

I'm confused. So, where do Miniature Horses with say, Rowdy lines fall into all of this? And I guess Arenosa bred Miniatures are out? Where exactly would all of you like to draw the line on "Miniature Shetlands" and what exactly is a true Miniature Horse based on bloodlines, temperment and appearance?


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## Boinky (Sep 17, 2008)

lol andrea... that was my thinking when i was reading these posts too.. what exactly DEFINES a 'true" mini. What exact standards do you define a 'true" mini by..other than perhaps there is no acknowlegement of "registered shetlands" in the lines (although we know many lines have shetlands that just werne't acknowledged as such quite close up... (buckeroo for one.....)? i don't see a HUGE difference in apperance either except some shetlands usually have better conformation and proportions but overall pretty much the same. i'm personally a very competitive person overall and i want to do well.. I bought myself some shetlands. Even if it wans't to be "competitive" i probably would have started incorporating them intomy proram even if they weren't nessarily as hot as they are now BECAUSE they have better conformation and that will help improve my breeding and conformation animals.


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## Katiean (Sep 17, 2008)

I have shown several kinds of animals. Rabbits, sheep, dogs and yes horses (big and small). I have heard "My rabbit didn't win breed because the judge doesn't like me" and one of our Jr does took Best of Verity and the next show she was DQ'ed because she was a HE. Mistakes are made. In Dogs' I think they are the worst. My Keeshound and another always placed 1st and 2nd no matter how big the class was. One at one time and the other another time . His owners and I were friends and we knew our dogs. Then comes Mr Big Name Trainer/Haneder. He brings a dog that looks like he has been chaned under someones porch, was matted and he was skin and bones under all that hair (I did work my hand down through the mats). He took the breed that day.

However on the flip side. I was at the Reno AMHA show and there was a Mr Big Time Trainer that last year everything he took in the ring took 1st. This year same big trainer got nowhere and I am told he is very careful on choosing the horses he takes in so he will win. He even had a horse flip over in more than one driving class and let the others in the ring right his horse he didn't even get out of the cart. Even though most of the time this trainer gets the work done sometimes these trainers do get distracted.



. I was only at Regonals for a short time because I had just gotten out of the hospital after almost 3 weeks and almost dying. I still went to the show to take care of some business from the previous show and Mr Big Name Trainer was still in that slump.

I am not talking Nationals or World Shows. I have never been to one of those but I have seen less politics in AMHA then in the other animals I have shown. There are those that Try to make themselves "Important". But, when I go home do they affect my life? NO! So, I say take your horse out and do your best and have fun doing it. If you are not having fun at the shows you should not be going. I would not put my horse with a Big Name Trainer just to get that BIG WIN. I want my horses to win on his/her own marret. Not who is at the end of the lead or driving my horse.


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## kathey (Sep 17, 2008)

This is one of my miniature stallions that is 30" and when placed up against a shetland cross, especially one that is taller, he looses every time. WHY?

This guy is AMHA/AMHR through and through. So why can't he place? I finally retired him from showing because of this.


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## ckmini (Sep 17, 2008)

I love what the ASPC/AMHR horses are doing to improve (and yes I see it as improvement) to the minis.

*BUT *what I have a hard time with is a full-fledged modern shetland (whose shoes I'm sure were pulled right before they left for nationals) competeting in pleasure and roadster classes. To me these horses can and do have a place in the AMHR show ring, but in the *park harness class*!

Straight from the AMHR rulebook:

_Park Trot: Extremely animated, cadenced trot, with_

impulsion and power. The trot is bold and brilliant

with knees and hocks snapping high in expansive

and dramatic style, creating an illusion of lightness

with high-stepping action.

I know, my post raises the question of where you draw the line as to pleasure/park. I don't have the answer.

(note this is in reference to 1 such mare that was shown at Nationals, she was stunning and I would love to own her, but I feel she was shown in the wrong classes)


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## Katiean (Sep 17, 2008)

Hey, my 11yr old then 10 year old neice trained her own horse to drive and only had 6 weeks to do it in. She showed against kids that had formal training and the horses were trained by MR Big Time Trainer and she placed 2nd and 3rd. She was thrilled because that shows SHE did her best. I would not quit showing just because I didn't take first. IMO, if you are so concerned about the Champions you are in it for the money and not the fun. When you quit having fun why show?


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## disneyhorse (Sep 17, 2008)

Kathey... your buckskin stallion is pretty darn cute from that picture! However, if the class is not divided down, a taller horse usually places because they generally have a lot more leg, and thus are more "horselike" (most riding horses don't have short legs compared to their bodies, and that is what we are going for in the minis). It's hard to tell from the angle of that picture though.

And I DO have to say... not ALL of the horses that placed National Grand Champion in halter and driving were "Shetlands." It's not like you HAD to have a "Shetland" to do well at Nationals! Plenty of "true minis" (or at least AMHR only ones) did just fine. Perhaps I will have to check out the percentages. But plenty of "Shetlands" got the gate, after all the judges CANNOT see the papers of the horse!

A 35" gelding named "Buck Ons Jedi Knight Star" I trained and sold (out of AMHA/AMHR stallion Little Kings Buck On Broadway) was the National Grand Champion Pleasure Driving Over 34-36" this year. Yep, a good ole' "true mini." I KNOW there were SHETLANDS in the classes against him! And somehow he pulled it off! So you see, judges DO judge on the horse, not the papers... so I don't really see what the big deal is. The Shetlands just "tend" to have more extreme, correct conformation and bone as well as more motion... but not always.

Andrea


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## disneyhorse (Sep 17, 2008)

CKMini... I think that Park Harness minis can cross enter into Roadster. And if the pony did compete at Congress as a Modern, they can cross enter from Harness to Roadster as well.

As to Park versus Pleasure... it depends on how the horse is going. A Park Horse is far more slow (in forward motion) and extreme (in knee action) than a Pleasure horse... so if they were really letting it move out I don't see that a lot of motion in Pleasure is a bad thing.

Andrea


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## wpsellwood (Sep 17, 2008)

Ok Im adding my 2 cents because these posts are cracking me up. All I have heard for years and I mean years here on the forum is that miniatures are bred down shetlands. So its seems to me that shetlands are just beating shetlands and vice versa


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## Jill (Sep 17, 2008)

Erica and my Destiny stallion is "just" a mini and he got Reserve National Grand Champion, Western Country Pleasure Driving, 32"-34", Saturday night... I'm still just a little proud





Destiny's also always shown very well in halter with his Hall of Fame in it and was National Champion last year in Ammy Halter Sr. Stallion, Under





If he's got any shetland in him, it's way on back and attributable to what is said of Buckeroo...


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## wpsellwood (Sep 17, 2008)

> Erica and my Destiny stallion is "just" a mini and he got Reserve National Grand Champion, Western Country Pleasure Driving, 32"-34", Saturday night... I'm still just a little proud
> Destiny's also always shown very well in halter with his Hall of Fame in it and was National Champion last year in Ammy Halter Sr. Stallion, Under


And he is beautiful!


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## MiniHunterHorseFan (Sep 17, 2008)

At the Nationals I saw some horses that totally bolted in the ring and galloped when they were trotting and some that reared when they should have been backing. But the judges placed those horses in the top five over horses that didn't do that. Now to me that wouldn't be fair. And I saw one horse I know had to be a high stepping shetland who tracked with his head pointed to the outside of the ring and didn't back smoothly but still placed 1st because of his high step. How is that fair? I think judges should drop horses like that who are high steppers with problems under horses who don't step as high but drive quite well.


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## uwharrie (Sep 17, 2008)

I come from the dog show world. ( showed horses as a kid 30 odd years ago). Politics are in any aspect of showing, regardless of the species.

I usually show my IGs myself and for the most part do well. However with my second breed Dobermans I always use a handler. ( It is a political breed )

A GOOD handler be it dog or horse will make sure they always bring quality animals to the judges. Judges in turn know that. At least with dogs many judges were handlers once, so they understand the work involved.

After watching the AMHR nationals online I noticed one trainer/handler doing a lot of winning. I was told they will only take on National Caliber horses ( and their fees reflect that) So it stands to reason they will do their fair share of winning.

With the horses I plan to take the same course I have with dogs, show myself when I can and if I have an animal who I think is truely National caliber I will send them with a handler if I really want the win, otherwise will show myself and be happy with what I get.

And when you beat the big names or the politics it is even a sweeter victory!

BTW with IGs I have produced top winning dogs, and have owned top winning dogs, both owner handled and some professional handled.


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## funnybunny (Sep 17, 2008)

I saw a lot of beautiful Shetlands in halter. They looked great standing there. They looked good moving from the side. But OMG, watching them move towards you or back, they looked like egg beaters. Legs were flying everywhichway.

In the driving classes, I was not in a position to watch movement coming and going. Most of the Shetlands have lots of action and drive and that was great to watch.

It seems to me that if you're going to put Shetlands back in your Mini breeding program, it would be wise to watch out for movement in front and rear that they might produce. Most minis shown in halter have pretty good or excellent movement. We cannot afford to borrow trouble with movement. JMHO>

I also saw driving horses rearing up while lined up. They were at the far end and I don't believe the judges saw any of that.


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## Echo Acres (Sep 17, 2008)

I have to comment on two things that were said...

*As for a horse not winning because its up against ponies, BS the best horse will win. My suggestion is to step back and take a good look at your horse and make sure you really are not just being barn blind.*

This was in regards to what I posted on our mare. Yes to some extent I am sure I am barn blind. But I don't feel that she is nice enough to win all the time, and yes she has competed against very nice miniatures and lost...I don't have a problem with that. It is when she is not the "pony" type that gets me. We have had many big breeders say they would love to own her. We even had a person who was an AMHA breeder only want to buy her (she is 36" and AMHR only).

*Kathey... your buckskin stallion is pretty darn cute from that picture! However, if the class is not divided down, a taller horse usually places because they generally have a lot more leg, and thus are more "horselike" (most riding horses don't have short legs compared to their bodies, and that is what we are going for in the minis). It's hard to tell from the angle of that picture though.*

You see this is one issue I have a problem with. If the horse is balanced correctly according to the rule book on what the "ideal" mini should look then the SMALLER horse should win!!! I was told by a judge that the rule book no longer says that, but it still does. Yet time after time if you have 2 equal quality horses in the ring, the bigger one will win.

I am not totally putting down the shetland. I love some of their movement and beauty and seen some really nice ones at nationals. I just think there is a time and place for them.


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## disneyhorse (Sep 17, 2008)

Funnybunny... I actually think most Shetlands move better than most minis (halter ones). The Shetland is judged VERY heavily on movement, whereas the miniature is judged more heavily on conformation. This is because the Shetland pony must "work the rail" in EVERY halter class they are in, from beginning to Jr/Sr to Grand. The judge will watch the pony walk and trot towards and away, and along the rail collected with a tailer. The miniature only sort of walks in and trots in an "L" briefly before lining up and the judge already has the next mini coming in.

I don't believe that Shetlands all track wrong in movement... that is a weird generalization to make. Perhaps because they move more extreme than a shuffling mini (how many people REALLY trot out their minis?) you notice it a little bit more?

Andrea


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## Minimor (Sep 17, 2008)

> The miniature only sort of walks in and trots in an "L" briefly before lining up and the judge already has the next mini coming in.


And that is a complaint I have about many Mini judges. If the class requirement is for the horse to be trotted in an "L" away from the judges and around the end of the ring, then the judges should be watching the horse as it trots around the end of the ring. Movement SHOULD count, and judges SHOULD be watching that horse move from the side. As I see it if there are two horses with equal conformation, but one is a mover and the other one isn't....the mover should place above the other one. I don't believe that most of the judges would have a clue which one was the better mover, because most judges don't watch enough of the trot to know. Yes, a few do, but from what I have seen, most don't.


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## Boinky (Sep 17, 2008)

LOl one of those horses that 'totally bolted" was one i was driving.. she tweaked out over nothing in general.. i did ask to be excused but we wonder now if we'd have placed higher if we had continued on after seeing some of the others that was lumped in your 'totally bolted, flipped, ran into wall" group..LOL.... first thing I said was 'well the judge's certainly noticed us' LOL not really funny but it is...


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## Echo Acres (Sep 17, 2008)

Yep, maybe you should have stayed in. j/k The one night I was heading for a friend. Her horse broke. When she went to pull back the rein came off the bridle. She tried slowing him down with one rein and ended up bumping the wall. After all said and done she placed 6th. She could not believe it. Then a couple classes later a horse reared up, caused another horse to rear and another to stop (and yes the judges saw) and this horse took reserve. We came to the conclusion you need to make a scene I guess. Pretty sad. Boinky you did the right thing, it can happen to anyone and it is for safety.


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## bingo (Sep 17, 2008)

While of course Shetlands do work the rail they are judged on movement on the profile not so much tracking straight at the trot.

I have seen some ponies do what I have always called paddling when watching them from the front or back and not really track straight however they look amazing moving on the rail in profile. Especially if they have had aids used on them it really changes the tracking straight.

Minis are judged at the trot to see if they are tracking straight.

I also saw some horses break and canter the rail the entire class (not Roadster) and come out winning I did not understand but a show is always filled with things we do not always understand *unless of course we are the ones who won* lol in that case we usually understand all we need to!


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## Minimor (Sep 17, 2008)

> I also saw some horses break and canter the rail the entire class (not Roadster) and come out winning I did not understand but a show is always filled with things we do not always understand *unless of course we are the ones who won* lol in that case we usually understand all we need to!


 This is quite true, though I have to say that there have been enough times when the winner came out of a class with an amazed expression--absolutely astounded that he/she won because his/her horse had made some major goof and the handler thought that goof would put their horse out of the placings.
I would point out, too, that "politics" can work either for or against a person. Once I was in a class where the judge was a friend of the family...and best friends with the owner of the horse I was showing. That judge never took her eyes off of me. I may as well have been the only horse in the class, because she never looked at anyone else....until I made a little mistake (and it was a very little one). From that point on she never looked at me again & I did not place. She was watching me because she knew me and she knew my horse....some would have said it wasn't fair, and I have to agree...because had she not been watching me the entire time she would never have noticed my little mistake and I probably would have done well. Had she not known me or my horse we might have won. Conversely, in another show I was in a class where the judge watched another entry the entire time. He never took his eyes off her, and I thought he must really like her--I fully expected her to win the class. Imagine my surprise when he pinned me first. He hadn't even looked at me. I'm sure my horse could have been doing cartwheels & he wouldn't have noticed us. I still don't know how a judge can place a horse he never looked at, but obviously it happened--he must have made his decision as soon as we came into the ring, and after that it didn't matter to him what the class looked like. He was watching the one horse that caught his attention for whatever reason--good or bad. I honestly believe that sometimes when a horse acts up and still wins...it's entirely possible that the judge just never saw the horse misbehave. Granted, it's a little harder when there are multiple judges and the score is averaged, but it can happen.


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## Yaddax3 (Sep 17, 2008)

There is a reason some of us prefer Jumper to anything else. It is the only class you can minimize the judges' impact. Generally, the stopwatch decides the winner, not the judges.


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## funnybunny (Sep 17, 2008)

*Disneyhorse, I did not make the generalization that all Shetlands track wrong in movement. * *I know what I saw, and I am a movement nut. Some beautiful Shetlands at the show had flashy movement, but it was not parallel movement by any means when seen from front and rear. It was flashy from the side with knee action and drive.* *I stand by what I observed. * *By the way, Disney, the photo in your avatar is very lovely.*

FB


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## Donna (Sep 18, 2008)

I do not think this thread is of any new news to anyone. The barns were full of chatter and speculations about what was going on this year as well as previous years. I agree that there appears to have been some kind of political pattern. I did not always agree with the end results either. There were horses-people that I felt certainly got the shaft and others that I feel should not have had the placings that they got. Its a horse show. I can say that what I saw and others saw this year was not a positive reflection on some people and it certainly showed when some winners silented the whole arena and others got a standing ovation.

I have witnessed in the many years that we have shown, horses being placed according to their handler. You can't change it , there is no need in trying. The only thing you can do is to get involved with your club and research your judges and hire those that you feel will give everyone an honest shake on their horse. I for one had a real problem with the fact that AMHR hired the same judge for the Congress and AMHR Nationals. I am not saying that this judge was showing favortism, I am just saying that The Journal list all the judges from all over the United States and they could only find one judge to work both shows, Hello? We also inquired at Nationals as to how the National judges were picked and we got three differant answers from three differant people.



One of which told us that a form was mailed out and you write in judges of your choice and the list is then narrowed down by number of nominations. Well, we have gotten this letter for Futurity Judge, but I do not recall any such letter for open and so on. Why cant they just simply print the form in the Jounal as they do the Futurity forms? Let all the members nominate.

I also had a problem with the fact that the trainers, also holding Judges Cards work so closely together all year long. All the trainers are going after their judges cards and I for one have heard on several occassions that "You scratch my back I'll scratch Yours" policy comes into play allot in this industry. I might add that I have also heard it is the same way in the dog showing industry as well as any competitive sport. So sad! Do you actually think a Trainer-Judge is going to place another Trainer-Judge lower in placings than someone that is below that status? I for one think not.

My stallion showed in the Junior Stallions Over class and we got Reserve Champion. I have to say that in THIS class I agreed with the judges. If I had gotten anything less, I would have been quite dissapointed. The horse that won was certainly a very nice horse and well deserving of his placing. One that I agreed should have gotten First above mine. Had I put my horse with a certain person to gain that place and knowingly beat a horse that I knew was more desserving would not have given me Joy but taken away from my Joy, especially when so many others could plainly see that my horse was less than adequate.

I did have my stallion with a trainer ( ED SISK ) of Blue Ribbon Training Center. Ed and Valerie has done a wonderful job with Swirl . The horse was conditioned and much more well behaved and trained than I myself could have done. A stallion in his terrible two's and I just do not mix well.





We also had other horses that we showed ourselves.

Convention is coming up soon, it will be interesting to hear who has been picked for 2009 National Judges, or rumor has it the judges have already been determined, is this true? Who are they? Anyone know?


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## Karen S (Sep 18, 2008)

Good Morning,

For those of you that don't understand the picking of our judges, first I would like for you to go to the rulebook or the one on line (Pages 73, 74, 75, 76, 77). Please read about the judges and how they are rotated. Then the AMHR/ASPC/ASPR Committee's send letters out to their committee members asking them to field people in their areas wanting to know what judges they would like to see for the next year. Those names are turned back into the committee chairs and researched, first to see if they qualify (if they have met their judges requirments for renewing their license each year), if they want to judge a National show and if they hold a card for that catagory. Then all of those names are submitted to the BOD and Lenard to see "Who" will accept a contract. Yes, there will be years where some of those same judges will come back to judge either the AMHR Nationals, Congress or even Worlds. Then they will be announced at convention.

Again, many have said it here many many times, get involved in your area, learn about the judges and the type of judge cards they hold. A quarter horse judge is going to pick quarter horse type over an arabian type, and visa versa. Just like a judge holding a judges card with the Pinto or Paint are going more the color horses over a solid horse (yes, I know all other factors should be there too).

Your Committee Chairs:

AMHR:

Larry Parnell

ASPC:

Belinda Bagby

ASPR:

Mary Wahl

Moderns:

Fran Eperthener

Modern Pleasure:

Roger Daulton

You can contact these committee chairs regarding the judges and any questions you may have about those judges that are canvessed for the National shows. Again, communicate don't be afraid to ask questions if you don't understand but don't keep talking about how bad things are and then sit back and don't get involve, learn all you can for someday it may fall on YOU to take care of things.

Karen


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## Fred (Sep 18, 2008)

It is too late to put this proposal in this year but I really feel that if a judge is a trainer then they should not be allowed to judge shows with the judges that are chosen for nationals during that national year. I truly feel this is a serious conflict of interest and should be addressed. Also some of those horses that won were catch handled by a particular trainer and I know of a couple that won that weren't in the best of condition. I have been active and involved in trying to get things in my area with the judging and I do feel that this year was an interesting year. I was fortunate to be able to attend nationals due to some great hearted people in our organization who made this possible. I love the ASPC/AMHR know my directors and try to attend our area meetings each time even though sometimes its a 10 hour drive. I heard the grumbling at the show and sad to say what I saw I agree with some of it. The national show is a great show and the registry is a great registry but it still has problems. Linda


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## LaVern (Sep 19, 2008)

I could not stay away from this one. I feel the Shetland influence is here to stay. And it is good,I think, because those people have to pay double and it brings more money in.

But what I find funny is that, the Shetland breeders and trainers and judges have been fighting for as long as I can remember about what a Shetland Pony is supposed to look like and now they are determining what the miniatures are supposed to look like through Pony trained judges. And I guess their opinion is as good as the next guy. We don't have a type. It is just how tall they are.

The other thing I think is funny, is how the Shetland people like to take credit for our beautiful miniatures, saying that they call came from Shetlands. Mabe they did. Or maybe it was the Big Bang Thing.

*I say prove it.* Heck, if you dug them and their parents up, I bet alot of them wouldn't even be who it says they are on there papers.

The Full Blooded Miniature Horse, means many generations that can be backed up and proven through parent qualification.


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## bingo (Sep 19, 2008)

LaVern said:


> rs. The Full Blooded Miniature Horse, means many generations that can be backed up and proven through parent qualification.


Well then that would take out a huge amount of your AMHR horses. First off there is no PQ and truth is we all know that besides hardshipping which was allowed until recently that just as many misleading parents on AMHR papers as ASPC. Lets not forget that some AMHA horses have pedigree issues as well.

To say you have a full blooded miniature horse is the same as saying you have a full blooded cockapoo



Yes it might come from a cocker and a poodle however that does not make it full blooded.


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## LaVern (Sep 19, 2008)

Oh, I was not talking about anyone elses horses. Just my own ,and they are Full of Blood and I know who's it is. But really, you can work yourself up to full bloods in some livestock breeds.

I think it sounds so good (Full Bloods)and heck after I am gone for 25 years or so, someone might come along and think I acually knew what I was talking about.


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## LaVern (Sep 19, 2008)

Kind of like the name Thoroughbred. Now what the heck does that mean?


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## Lisa Strass (Sep 19, 2008)

LaVern said:


> Oh, I was not talking about anyone elses horses. Just my own ,and they are Full of Blood and I know who's it is. But really, you can work yourself up to full bloods in some livestock breeds. I think it sounds so good (Full Bloods)and heck after I am gone for 25 years or so, someone might come along and think I acually knew what I was talking about.



My horses are all Full of Blood also - at least I hope so! Sorry, couldn't resist.


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## Matt73 (Sep 19, 2008)

LaVern said:


> Kind of like the name Thoroughbred. Now what the heck does that mean?



Sorry. Just jumped to the last page and saw this. A Thoroughbred is a breed of horse. Like Arabian, Quarterhorse, Hanoverian, etc. Here ya go: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thoroughbred


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## LaVern (Sep 19, 2008)

Yah, I kind of know that, but thanks for the site. Good reading. I was just trying to come up with a good name to distinquish my horses from the doubles. And I wondered if it was a bunch of old guys sitting around a round table at a pub that came up with it or maybe it was somebodys last name. Myrtle Thoroughbred maybe. Any way it is a good name and so is Full Bloods.


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## MiLo Minis (Sep 19, 2008)

LaVern said:


> Yah, I kind of know that, but thanks for the site. Good reading. I was just trying to come up with a good name to distinquish my horses from the doubles. And I wondered if it was a bunch of old guys sitting around a round table at a pub that came up with it or maybe it was somebodys last name. Myrtle Thoroughbred maybe. Any way it is a good name and so is Full Bloods.


I like your "Full Bloods"! I sure as heck don't want to get into "Foundation" Miniatures as that just makes me think Shetland and half of those Foundations look suspiciously to me as if they contain more than a pint of Hackney blood. Full Blooded Miniatures has a good ring to it.


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## minie812 (Sep 19, 2008)

Would this then be a third registry? The AFBM Horse registry?


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## Crabtree Farm (Sep 23, 2008)

stormy said:


> Ahh but you are mistaken, I do like them. I raised Shetlands at one time, enjoyed them and working with them as shetlands. Losing what the miniature horse has become is a tragedy. Both breeds have their place just as Standardbreds and Morgans who have the same roots. Their is enough refinement and beauty in the Miniature horse without returning to the Shetland. Keep the Shetland and the Miniature horse as diverse and seperate breeds as they have become, or judge both types on a level playing field, or heaven forbid, class them by type as the Shetlands do.
> 
> I do not dislike the Shetland at all, I dislike losing the Miniature horse.


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## Crabtree Farm (Sep 23, 2008)

stormy said:


> Ahh but you are mistaken, I do like them. I raised Shetlands at one time, enjoyed them and working with them as shetlands. Losing what the miniature horse has become is a tragedy. Both breeds have their place just as Standardbreds and Morgans who have the same roots. Their is enough refinement and beauty in the Miniature horse without returning to the Shetland. Keep the Shetland and the Miniature horse as diverse and seperate breeds as they have become, or judge both types on a level playing field, or heaven forbid, class them by type as the Shetlands do.
> 
> I do not dislike the Shetland at all, I dislike losing the Miniature horse.



You say that you raised Shetlands. Can I ask when you raised Shetlands and for how long?


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## Echo Acres (Sep 23, 2008)

*[SIZE=14pt]I do not dislike the Shetland at all, I dislike losing the Miniature horse[/SIZE]*

Wow- I know I started this whole mess, but this statement made in crabtree farms post may be the most true and powerful for me. I have to say I have some issues with the "old shetlands" attitude growing up with many, but I guess it really isn't that I dislike todays shetlands. As others have said, I enjoy watching a pretty horse despite the breed. I also agree that we are always trying to better the breed.

But this statement makes the most sense of all.


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