# OMG !! This makes me sick



## minimom1 (Sep 4, 2010)

I was reading an auction list that was posted on another forum from an auction here in Alberta, Canada.

There was 2 weanling mini's purchased by the kill buyer






This made me cry, I have a little one this year and I can not comprehend what these poor babies are going through right now. They apparently are headed for slaughter on Monday.

I had NO idea that weanling mini's would go for slaughter until tonight. Is this common ?

I really wish I knew who the kill buyer was as I would be on my way with my trailer to buy them from him even though it is like a 5 hr drive from me.


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## Genie (Sep 4, 2010)

Speechless



I just can not imagine


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## Sue_C. (Sep 4, 2010)

Just a THOUGHT now...



Meat dealers are there for the $$, and seriously, a weanling mini isn't going to bring in much revenue as a meat horse...so I would assume the dealer has a sale wsith a buyer for the minis. Many times the dealers will get super deals on good "reuseable" horses, and resell them later. So...let's hope.





the real, and TRUE bad-guy here, isn't the dealer...he hs a job to do, alibet one that we generally find extremely distastful...the REAL honest and true monster...is the SOB who took those horses there with no seserve, and allowed them to be sold to the meat dealer to begin with.






That is the one that makes ME


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## Minimor (Sep 4, 2010)

I would say there is a very good chance that the kill buyer will in this case be selling those foals on to someone else, that he didn't buy them for slaughter. The one buyer here will do that with horses--maybe not buy them specifically for something other than slaughter, but when he gets them home to his feed lot he looks them over & if there are a couple that look like they might be good saddle prospects he will set them aside for possible resale. How long he will keep those horses for resale I don't know--perhaps only until they are in the right condition to be sent on to the slaughterhouse--but I do know people that have gone there & picked up a saddle horse. Mini weanlings....no profit in sending them onto the slaughterhouse. They are likely to be headed for a home with someone.


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## minimom1 (Sep 4, 2010)

Oh I sure hope so and your right I was not blaming the kill buyer for purchasing them it is of course the fault of the scumbag that took the poor little guys there. I was just really suprised to read the meat man purchased mini weanlings.


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## Marty (Sep 4, 2010)

Don't kid yourself. Minis in any size or age are used for live bait at many game farms that raise lions and tigers for the wanna be hunters. Usually they go via Mexico but there are others places. Appauling as it seems, this is what the human race has been reduced to in many places.


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## minimom1 (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't even know what to say about that one Marty!

I am off to hug my babies and tell them what a good life they have.


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## frostedpineminis (Sep 4, 2010)

Hi, I am from alberta too and live in the same town as the horse plant, just wondering if I could get information on the 2 minis as to what sale they went through, date and somewhat of a description, maybe I can help.


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## JWC sr. (Sep 4, 2010)

Folks, realize that killer buyers are not just killer buyers, they are horse traders also and as one of the other posters stated. he more than likely had a buyer in mind when he bought them.

From time to time you here about people thinking that mini's are going to a processing plant, knowing a number of killers in our area of eastern Texas, where race tracks from Texas and Louisiana routinely sell their broke down or undesirable horses into the killer markets. I have ask the question" can you pack mini's" of several of them and the response is always, "we cannot come out buying mini's or small equine for our market". This response if you think about it makes a lot of practical sense. It cost the same to transport a mini in a pot (the trailers used for this type of transport)as it does a big horse. Additionally the minis would have to be segregated to make sure they made the trip. Couple that with the fact that the low yield of a mini in comparison to a big horse as far as final meat on the rack and it just does not work.

I know in this country we have an aversion to regarding horses as food animals, but in other parts of the world they eat them like we eat cattle, chickens and hogs. Personally I want no part of eating horse meat, but I am not going to call out people for doing so. To me that would be very hypocritical of me, while I enjoy my rib eye or Mcdonalds hamburger to say the least.

All animals in my eyes are deserving of dignity and respect up and until the time they are used by humans for whatever end purpose. Be that showing, pets, breeding or food consumption.

We made a huge mistake closing the killer plants in this country, where we had at least some control over the way the horses were transported, handled, processed and cared for until they were processed. Now we have them being transported long distances into countries such as Mexico where they is no control and we have no say over what and how they are handled. But that is another thread, I guess.


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## minimom1 (Sep 4, 2010)

Frostedpineminis:

It was the Toefield Auction on Aug 28

These three were all purchased by a meat man (sorry don't know which one but possibly the auction mart can tell you)

Mini mare exposed to 29" stallion for 2011 sold for meat $190

Mini filly weanling sold for meat $140

Mini colt weanling sold for meat $90


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## frostedpineminis (Sep 4, 2010)

I competely agree with you JWC sr. There are many horses out in the world and people have to come to the comclusion that there are worse things than death in this world, like abandonment to starve or living with a horrible condition or worse yet as you stated being shipped to mexico were they kill them just like they would here but without any cruelty laws. On the other hand they do at the plant here kill minis and I know people that work there and they say it is quite sad to see them in there, so it does happen. I dont get mad about the fact that they kill horses, its just that if there is any chance to save a YEARLING mini, and find it a better home, then I am going to try because there is a lot of horses out there that need to go there before a couple of yearling miniature horses, not to say that the buyer didnt have someone in mind and if so then that is great I have a friend with 3 mini donkeys that all came from the meat buyer and I am glad that most people know that most of the miniature stock bought at market goes to a good home and a couple of my friends have mini donkeys to prove it.


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## frostedpineminis (Sep 4, 2010)

ok thanks minimom1, I will talk to the people that I know and see if maybe I can find out were they went, anything bought in alberta, bc and sask should come to town here. thanks for the update.


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## Miniv (Sep 4, 2010)

JWC sr. said:


> Folks, realize that killer buyers are not just killer buyers, they are horse traders also and as one of the other posters stated. he more than likely had a buyer in mind when he bought them.
> 
> All animals in my eyes are deserving of dignity and respect up and until the time they are used by humans for whatever end purpose. Be that showing, pets, breeding or food consumption.
> 
> We made a huge mistake closing the killer plants in this country, where we had at least some control over the way the horses were transported, handled, processed and cared for until they were processed. Now we have them being transported long distances into countries such as Mexico where they is no control and we have no say over what and how they are handled. But that is another thread, I guess.


Good points........ Well said.


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## JWC sr. (Sep 4, 2010)

Frosted,

I completely understand and hope you are successful at finding them great homes. Hpefully we all can find life jobs for every mini we come in contact with.





I hope I did not come across as being negative about your post as it was not meant that way at all.





This is though one of my pet peeves and so posted the comments I made. I hate seeing cruelty is any form when it comes to animals and so many times we see folks mistreating them like the idiots down in the center of Texas were doing with the 100+ minis they were not feeding or caring for. Those folks are the real villains in my way of thinking and should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law Barr none.





The death some of those little horses met were indeed pitiful and I would have much preferred to have them processed and not allowed to starve or be mistreated the way they were.





Good Luck in your quest!!


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## Songcatcher (Sep 4, 2010)

John, I agree with you fully. Here in southeast Oklahoma, we are rather remote. Thirty miles away from here is a lot of forest land, very hilly and rocky. Little to no grass. Although I have not seen it personally, I have heard of several big horses being taken up there and dumped out because people cannot afford to feed them and cannot sell them. They WILL starve. Maybe not this year, but most likely next. Meanwhile, some of them will have foals. Many of those will be eaten by coyotes. There are also some mountain lions (locally usually referred to as panthers) in the area and they LOVE horse meat.

THIS is what happens when slaughter is not allowed.


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## frostedpineminis (Sep 4, 2010)

Dear JWC Sr. Thanks for the post, I under NO circumstances thought of your post as negative!! I completely understand where you are coming from.


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## GypsyMoonMinis (Sep 4, 2010)

I am a HUGE anti-slaughter advocate. I USED to be a huge SUPPORTER for slaughter. Until I became educated. Please keep in mind, i am not some blind, bleeding heart. I have spent the last year doing alot of research into this issue.

I follow a large number of rescues, mostly back east. Some may recall when I posted about a Shetland pony, out of hall of fame bloodlines and in top condition with outstanding confirmation that was listed to go to slaughter. Luckily we were able to save him. Minis are a weekly occurrence, as are ponies. Mind you these aren't horses in poor condition. They aren't of poor stock or bad confirmation. These are well trained, well loved minis used for driving, riding etc etc. On an average I see at least 3 and usually more go through *each week. *

People think these horses are safe because they are minis. The fact is, they are often sold as food for other animals, such as for zoos or large game preserves. And, believe it or not, they DO ship to slaughterhouses in Canada and Mexico. Its not often, but it does happen, esp with the larger minis and ponies. The Kill Buyer (KB) sees a profit to be made, period.

This is an extremely sensitive issue. Everyone has an opinion on it, but in the end, the facts cannot be denied. And it effects every single facet of the horse industry, from mini horses to large drafts, mules, donkeys and everything in between. Alot of people say that it is more humane for the animals to go to slaughter than it is for them to be turned out into the wild and abandoned. The fact is, while that does happen, it is not as high an occurrence as one may think. I'll get into some statistics in a moment. A large number of organizations, both anti and pro slaughter have agreed that the unwanted horse issue has* not *increased due to slaughter house shut downs in the US. IN fact, the same number of animals are being shipped to slaughter as they were before, the only difference is that they are going out of the country now. neglect and Abuse cases never increased with the plant shutdowns in the US.

First, lets look at where these horses are coming from. naturally there are the animals that are sick, incurably lame, or dangerous. Then there are the 'other' horses, which make up 80% or more of the horses slipped to slaughter. These are PMU foals and mares, These are Nurse Foals, these are the grand kids pony that we don't want any more, these are excess thoroughbreds, saddlebreds, pacers; these are the AQHA and APHA horses that are born the wrong color (im not kidding!), these are the excess Amish driving horses, carriage horses from new york, unwanted mustangs from the range,draft horses that don't have a job any more.... the list goes on and on and on. (Please note, while it is illegal to slaughter a horse under the age of 6 months, many PMU and Nurse mare foals are either clubbed at birth or skinned for leather products)

The AQHA is one registry that is continually under the gun, and in many ways represents whats happening all over. The AQHA registers, _yearly_, an average of 135,000 foals. By oct 2009, roughly 115,000 horses had been shipped to slaughter. In 2007, 122,000 horses were slaughtered. And still they promote breeding. This is where i really commend registries such as PtHA and AHA that have gelding incentive funds as well as programs that award points for doing something other than showing and breeding. Before i move on, I want to say here that I personally am caught. I would love to breed minis, I have an ideal in confirmation and temperament I want to reach. and someday I would like to venture into breeding Gypsy vanners and knabstruppers to help preserve these rare breeds. But I see the number of horses slaughtered each week and I have to ask myself, is that the right thing to do?

I want to pause a moment and talk about an article I read recently about a breeder in canada. She's upset because of all the american horses coming into canada for slaughter, because its driving the price down on her own horses. She breeds over 50 AQHA mares a year, and recently had to ship 25 yearlings to slaughter. She got an average of 125 dollars a head. She states she has to breed 100 horses to get 2 horses of quality. (for pleasure, barrel racing and show). She faults the rescues for inteferring with slaughter, because slaughtering the poor quality horses removes them from the gene pool. And she faults consumers for wanting to pay 200 dollars for a rescue horse, instead of 2000 dollars for an untried yearling. Any good rescue always puts in a do not breed clause in thier adoptions, and some go so far as to sterilize the animals. Sadly, her sentiments are shared by many others who breed indiscriminately. Let me state here that I have a HUGE amount of respect for MANY breeders, here in the mini horse world and in others. A good breeder will always know where their animals go, be willing to take them back and will only breed what they know they can home or care for!

There are just no two ways about it. Over breeding in the horse industry is a huge component of the over abundance of horses that are slaughtered yearly.

***WARNING: THE FOLLOWING IS GRAPHIC IN NATURE***

So, is slaughter more humane that going unwanted? Well, one must consider how the horses are treated. When abandoned, they are often, very sadly, left to a fate such as starvation, being attacked by dogs, hit by a car or something such as that. Cases of abuse and neglect are disgusting, and very sad. But slaughter is no better. The animals are loaded into double decker semi trailers and hauled across country, without food or water, in cramped conditions. Often they will fall in the trailers and be trampled on the way. When they arrive at the plants, a large number of the animals are already dead, most are dehydrated and in such poor conditions that they are drug out of the trucks because they are unable to walk on thier own. Mares drop aborted foals on the concrete, and if a foal is born alive, they are also left behind and die shortly after from dehydration, exposure and trauma. IN canada captive bolts are used to stun the horse before it has its throat slit. Most of the time the captive bolt misses, maiming the animal and leaving it screaming in pain while workers struggle to end its life. In Mexico, a sharp knife is used to severe the spinal cord just behind the poll. Again, they often miss thier targets because we all know how sensitive horses are to having their heads and ears messed with. So, please tell me how those last 4 days of a horses life going to slaughter is more humane. The fact is, whats humane is euthanasia from a qualified official.

There is one more aspect of the slaughter issue that people seem to be blind too. The very simple fact that American horse meat is NOT fit for human consumption! Have you ever taken a peek at the products you give your horses? Bute, wormers, supplements, other pain killers, vaccines, antibiotics.... Its not like the horses going to slaughter are being raised for meat like cattle. The horses going to slaughter are your backyard pets, your performance horses, animals that have had something given to them. If for no other reason at all, that should be enough to ban american horses exports for slaughter. We are in effect poisoning the countries that eat our equine. Canada just recently put in a new law that demands each animal is identified before it can be slaughtered. KB's are of course angry about this, because it increases thier amount of paper work, but at least now there will be a solid record of where exactly that animal came from and if it has had any chemicals of any kind in its body.

Anyone remember the racehorse Ferdinand? He was slaughtered in Japan after failing as a sire.

I could write for days about this. As responsible horse owners, breeders and lovers, it is up to us to take care of our fellow equine. I would LOVE to see more registries put forth more incentive funds to promote gelding, older horse ownership and less breeding. I would also like to see these registries take responsibility for the animals they advocate.

I have a number of sources I can provide for the above information, but I didn't post any because Im not clear on the link rules here on the forum. If you would like to see them, please send me a PM and I would be more than happy to forward them to you.

I wanted to add a response to:



> We made a huge mistake closing the killer plants in this country, where we had at least some control over the way the horses were transported, handled, processed and cared for until they were processed. Now we have them being transported long distances into countries such as Mexico where they is no control and we have no say over what and how they are handled. But that is another thread, I guess.


The sad fact is, our own US slaughter house conditions were just as bad as those outside of the country. They still used the captive bolt which is NOT acceptable for a horse as it is for a cow or sheep. Even Temple Grandin, who is nothing short of a genius and has worked extensively to improve the conditions of slaughter plants for ALL animals has stated "Every time she comes back to inspect she has to fix everything she sees"


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## HGFarm (Sep 4, 2010)

Killers buy by the pound... and there is not much worth bothering with on a Mini weanling. He may have purchased them to resell or for his kids or... There was a killer buyer here who used to try to go through all the horses he picked up, and if they were good for riding or breeding or kids pets or whatever, he would keep those back and sell them to good homes. He was just as happy to save as many as he could.

Not all meat buyers are horrible ogres who just want to slaughter everything.


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## tagalong (Sep 4, 2010)

As others have pointed out, the dealers are just that. Dealers. Horse traders. Every horse they get at a sale is not necessarily going for meat - far from it. The horse plant that was near us in Alberta many years ago had large pens for riding horses... seperate ones for mares and foals, stallions, ponies etc. We went there many times to buy horses out of the pens (and I toured the plant as well - so I have FIRST HAND experience with what went on) - the guys there were ALWAYS glad to help. Mini weanlings are not going up the chute in the plant. Not a chance of that. A) they are too small for any/all of the equipment and set up and B) they are not worth it $$$-wise. That guy likely held them at the side for resale. The same holds true for foals, by the way.

And I think the anger is misdirected. The KB is just doing his job. Who brought those minis to the Tofield auction mart and dumped them - without caring where they wound up or what happened to them? THAT is where the anger should be directed.



> Most of the time the captive bolt misses, maiming the animal and leaving it screaming in pain while workers struggle to end its life.


That is a gross generalization. I NEVER saw that happen - and at least I actually was there using my own eyes and ears. _If "most of the time" was even remotely true, you think I would have seen it at least once._ Or that my friend who worked there would have seen that happen many times a day. _He never did._

WIth the pneumatic (?) "gun" (better than a regular captive bolt) I saw used, there was never a horse alive and screaming in pain on the floor or on the hoist. If the worker even thought for a nano-second that the first shot was not good enough, he did it again IMMEDIATELY to make sure that the horse was done. NO writhing and screaming. Just done. Think about it. It is just plain common sense. No worker wants a 1000 pound horse flailing around over their heads. Far too dangerous.

I wish people could try and avoid sensationalism and stick to facts. *And not assume that everything is done the same way everywhere.* But I have found that even though I have seen and experienced things first hand (the slaughterhouse, vet visits to PMU barns etc.) that I am usually told I am lying or making things up - as what I saw over the years did not match up with what we are told is "normal" and the "truth". Or, what happens "most of the time"... "always" .. "everywhere"... etc.

Sorry - I just get a bit frustrated about this topic...


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## disneyhorse (Sep 4, 2010)

I don't think smaller horses are immune to slaughter. I was at a local auction about ten years ago... I made the mistake of staying later in the auction (horse quality runs through there from best to worst...)

There were two (fairly unattractive, but young and friendly) miniature mules that ran through about halfway. The family next to me bid on them to barbecue... they went for $30 and $40.

I didn't have a bidder number, and although I don't know what the heck I would have done with them... it made me sick.

At any rate... it happens no matter how much you hope they will be resold or kept for kids. It's just like the people who dump their old, unwanted pet at the animal shelter and ignorantly hope someone else will adopt them, versus getting euthanized.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think closing the slaughter houses here was the best one.

Andrea


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## minimom1 (Sep 5, 2010)

I am sorry ... I did not mean to start a slaughter debate.

I was simply just upset thinking about the poor weanlings






I thought of my little 7 week old colt and pictured him being in that situation and it just broke my heart.

I am not opposed to slaughter as in todays world with all the breeders it seems to be a necasary evil, I AM however opposed to people breeding year after year and dumping their babies at the auction to go lord know's where. I see MANY QH breeders out here breed 10 to 100 babies a year and try to sell them for top dollar when they have not even been halter broke and the dam and sire have never been broke ... GUESS where most of them end up ... but they continue to breed year after year.

I was in no way insinuating the meat man / kill buyer was the bad guy in all of this .... just thought the whole situation was sad and wanted to say something about it.


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## JWC sr. (Sep 5, 2010)

GypsyMoon,

All I can say is that you proved up some of the very points I was making. And on this issue should it ever come to a vote you and I would obviously be offsetting each others vote. That to me is fine, but many of your facts are not as complete as you have portrayed them. Such as that even with the best efforts of all of the best rescues ( and they do an awesome job in most cases) in the country there is no way for them to re-home the numerous horses produced every year and the situation is getting worse down here in Texas where I have at least somewhat of a handle on the goings on of many of the rescues locally and make regular donations to them. Something must be done with those 100,000+/- horses per year other than sending them to a rescue.

While I do believe that you and I could agree that the over breeding of horses in general is the main culprit in this equation, that is not going to stop in the real world and therefore we must in my opinion find a way to either place these unwanted horses in new life jobs or see them put down to prevent the rampant abuse and neglect that is becoming so rampant here in our country.

While it is indeed unfortunate that some really all time great horses have ended up at killing plants, what would you have people do with horses that have blown out legs are infertile etc etc. Facts is the horses in my opinion deserve to be given a till death retirement home, but that is just me. I personally want to see them either re-homed or put down with as much dignity and respect as we can muster for them. In many folks minds & opinion in the equine industry's, they will not feed or care for a non-productive animal period. For those animals, we must give them a way out of a neglected or abused future that many of them would end up in.

We have here on our farm a retired cutting horse age 27 and a retired barrel horse age 47. They worked for Cindy and our kids for many years and will be here till they die of old age with all the support we can muster for them as far as vets etc. But we have the financial ability and space to make that kind of choice for our retired horses. Some folks just do not have that as an option for any number of reasons.





It would have been much more effective to put into place regulations on the care, transportation, holding, processing and uses of unwanted horses, here in this country, I think that approach would have alleviated a lot of problems that are still happening today under worse conditions than ever before.





But then again that is my opinion and not one others may support. Bottom line all I can personally do is breed only those horses I feel comfortable will have life homes that will make them cherished members of peoples homes and family's. And continue to geld all of the colts we produce except for the very few we consider to be stallion material.





Minimom, sorry your thread has gotten highjacked like it has and I promise not to make any further comments along these lines.


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## GypsyMoonMinis (Sep 5, 2010)

a pneumatic gun IS a captive bolt... but there are two types, pneumatic and cartridge. the pneumatic uses air charges and the cartridge uses blanks to fire the bolt into the brain, preferrably through the thinnest part of the animals skull. There is one place to shoot. A horse, whos anatomy is entirely differant than that of a sheep, pig or cow will be throwing thier head around in search of a way to escape the confines of the chute. The stunner has to be very good at his job to hit a moving target quickly and cleanly. Not only that, but the bolt guns, whether they are pnuematic or cartridge based, require a lot of maintenance, such as seal replacement at regular intervals.

JWC, I totally agree that rescues are being over run. And I do also agree that they should be put down if a responible home can't be found for them. However, I do not think slaughter is the answer. I think they should be euthanized. Some argue that it costs too much, in that case professionals need to make that option available for people of lessor means. Its everyone's responsibility, not just one industry or group over another. We see the same thing with dogs and cats. Thank the gods that horses can't reproduce like cats can!

In a perfect world, we wouldn't be having this conversation and I'd have to go find something else to champion



(im the woman, who as a child would rescue bees out of the water and give a grand funeral if he passed on..)...

My apologies as well minimom. I just hope people realize that just because they are small and cute doesn't mean they are safe from the atrocities of real life.


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## Minimor (Sep 5, 2010)

> (Please note, while it is illegal to slaughter a horse under the age of 6 months, many PMU and Nurse mare foals are either clubbed at birth or skinned for leather products)


I'm sorry, but I stopped reading your post when I got to that sentence! With those words, you proved that you really don't know so much about what you are talking about!
Of all the PMU producers I know--and over the years I have met many of them, because this area was PMU central for many years--not a one of them ever clubbed his foals at birth, nor did any of them skin those foals for leather products. It's true that over the years many PMU foals have ended up in feed lots and eventually the slaughter house. Maybe someone, somewhere did club his foals at birth--with all the sick people in the world it's entirely possible there is someone who would do that--but it sure isn't the norm, and never was.


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## GypsyMoonMinis (Sep 5, 2010)

Im very sorry Minimor. I most certainly wouldn't make something like that up. I am thankful that you have met a many good, humane PMU producers. I hope that is the norm. As I stated in my original post, I would be more than happy to pass on my sources of information. I would never expect anyone to take what I , or anyone else, says without first doing thier own research and then coming to thier own conclusion, as we all tend to see and experience things differently than the person next to us. I only recently found out about the Nurse Mare programs... Im still dumb founded!

Now back to Minimom's original topic


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 5, 2010)

I thought it was a mistake to close the slaughterhouses, now I do not.

It is a simple thing (trust me, we have done it already) to make it illegal to take an animal across a border alive for the purposes of slaughter.

The mistake was not in closing the plants, the mistake was in rushing the bill through and not getting all the dots on the "i's" and crosses on the "t's" first.

I just LOVE it when a kill buyer puts the cute little Mini in a pen and then pumps up the price in order to stop the poor thing going to slaughter!

IT IS A SALES PLOY, and every time you give in to it, you encourage him to do it again, and you encourage people to dump their babies, not just Minis, at auction. Hard though it is, I would call his bluff and tell him "good luck with that, I have rung AC in every county form here to the border and got onto Canada too, so I hope you have a separate stall all padded out for them"

Enforce the laws you have, don't waste any more time (and animals lives) trying to get new ones passed.

The only new law needed at the moment is the "crossing the border" thing, and that will need to be financed.

The fact is, there are not home available for a lot of really good, quality, foals, this year.

So, what are you going to do?

Buy them all?

Cos me, I would, I am afraid, rather go and buy a well priced, top quality foal than a train wreck a BYB has bred and then dumped at an auction for a kill buyer to blackmail someone into spending money on.

Yes, it is hard, life is not easy, and some people are already finding it hard to feed their children.


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## tagalong (Sep 5, 2010)

> I'm sorry, but I stopped reading your post when I got to that sentence! With those words, you proved that you really don't know so much about what you are talking about!





> Maybe someone, somewhere did club his foals at birth--with all the sick people in the world it's entirely possible there is someone who would do that--but it sure isn't the norm, and never was.


*Minimor* - that is my issue with al lot of what *Gypsy Moon* is saying. *GM*, you are wrong about a lot of your slaughterhouse facts, wrong about PMU foals being clubbed (but it paints such a pretty picture)... and so much more. I understand that the norm is not sensationalist enough - but why spread untruths? That is what PETA often does. They also specialize in sweeping generalizations about things. The more sensationalist the better.



> a pneumatic gun IS a captive bolt... but there are two types, pneumatic and cartridge. the pneumatic uses air charges and the cartridge uses blanks to fire the bolt into the brain, preferrably through the thinnest part of the animals skull. There is one place to shoot. A horse, whos anatomy is entirely differant than that of a sheep, pig or cow will be throwing thier head around in search of a way to escape the confines of the chute.


Once again - you know exactly what goes on - having never seen it.





_I never said the pneumatic gun was not a captive bolt _- please read again before rushing to correct me. I said it was not the regular old style one. Have you seen any of this in person? No. Your research seems to be a bit sketchy in some areas.

Horses came into the chute, the door closed behind them and they did not have a chance to:"throw their heads around and search for a way out". They had mere seconds to wonder what was going on. The guy with the gun was above them (so had a clear target), was a professional and knew what he was doing. As I said earlier, if he thought for a nanosecond that the first shot did not work, he IMMEDIATELY gave that horse another shot. And you also imply that the pneumatic guns are not properly maintained - trust me, a large plant takes good care of its equipment - and yet you implied otherwise.

Just a quick PMU perspective - as I fear that your research there will be a bit off as well... the barns were spotless. The mares did not have harness marks/burns. They could visit with their neighbours and great care was taken to make sure everyone had compatible neighbours, They could lay down in deep bedding and sleep comfortably. They were turned oit regularly and would bang on the gate to come back in after an hour or so. Poor dumb mares did not realize they were being abused, I guess. Water was NOT rationed. The vet I helped would drop in unannounced at PMU ranches in the area to check them out and we often noted that horses in the neighbouring fields were thin and miserable, sheltering from the snow behind the round straw bales that they had for feed. They had it far worse than the PMU horses. They were well cared for. Now, I am sure that in the past, some places were not up to the standard of the ten or so barns we visited - but the senationalist stuff is what is presented at the norm. Like the vision of sweet cuddly newborn foals being clubbed over the head for leather products. It makes for great outrage and PR - even if it is not true...



> I was simply just upset thinking about the poor weanlings I thought of my little 7 week old colt and pictured him being in that situation and it just broke my heart.


*minimom*



- I guarantee those weanlings did not go up the chute into the plant... no worries there. They likely were resold and I hope they found an actual home - where someone will not just toss them aside without caring about what would happen to them... like their original owners did.

Unfortunately, any thread about this topic is going to turn into a debate....


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## HGFarm (Sep 5, 2010)

Thank you for the truthful info tagalong! A lot of the stuff being told IS sensationalism, and stuff that PETA would glob onto to make the rest of the world think this is really what is going on on a regular basis. And folks get sucked in to the stuff that gets spread as 'all the time', 'normal' and 'everyday'. Some pics that are used for animal abuse ads (and I am NOT saying it doesnt happen here because we sure know it does) are not even taken in the U.S.

Slaughter house workers are not horrible monsters either and I am sure do not take joy in killing animals, but it's a job and puts meat on the table, etc.... And yes, it would be extremely dangerous, and time consuming to deal with thrashing animals. They have a quota to make daily and are not going to deal with all that.

For the mini mules that were 'purchased for bbq', is there proof that that is what really happened to them or was someone joking about it to 'yank someone's chain'??? And I would say that most everyday people do not go to the sale looking for bbq meat in the form of a miniature horse, LOL. I am not saying that there may be a time when something that is sick, old or something may go for slaughter, but on the whole, we dont see it here often either in the Miniature world.


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## GypsyMoonMinis (Sep 5, 2010)

Well, you got me Tagalong. Im a liar and a sensationalist. I have No idea what im talking about. I obviously don't have your extensive knowledge, nor have I personally witnessed the hundreds of actual slaughters that you must have to deem them humane. Sadly, I don't frequent PMU farms either to see the fair and just treatment of the mares there. I mean heck, they can lay down! They stand at the door begging to come back in the barn! Obviously they must be in great condition. Im sure that mentally they are at peace as well, since all horses do every day is stand around anyways, right? I have mistakenly considered equine to be something more than a business commodity. How silly of me! Forgive me, I must be mistaken that the meat is safe to eat, that no one would dream of harming a foal or weaning it too early and god forbid should they ever use a PMU or Nurse mare foal by-product for a delicacy or expensive shoe or belt (shell cordovan ring a bell?) I bow to your superior knowledge, your vast amount of personal experience. I think Ill go find some bees to save or maybe Ill make me a sign for global warming...Ignorance is bliss they say.

This is just a partial list...

Some video

http://www.youtube.c...h?v=ke2spBlChxA




Slaughter, PMU, Nurse Mares (This list includes Pro and Anti sentiments, as well as Unbiased documentation, including national statistics… my apologies for not being better organized)

http://www.himfr.com...Full_Brush_Set/

http://www.himfr.com/buy-pony_skin/

http://www.alibaba.c..._Corbusier.html

http://www.bridleand...ter_11895.shtml

http://www.tinyhoovesrescue.org/

http://dreamequineth...mare_foals.html

http://horween.com/index.php/leathers/

http://www.bensilver...uide_link4.html

http://www.answers.com/topic/cordovan

http://www.articleal...1580149_54.html

http://www.greenhorn.../nursemare.html

http://www.equinevoi...g/ponyskins.php

http://www.purethoug...e.com/index.php

http://www.lastchancecorral.org/home

http://www.whitebird...com/?page_id=71

http://www.thepetiti...of-nurse-mares/

http://equisearch.co...2107/index.aspx

http://www.equisearc...erissue_112107/

http://www.equisearc...scue/eqpmu1986/

http://www.nal.usda..../horses/pmu.htm

http://www.ag.ndsu.n...97/ar21197c.htm

http://www.nal.usda..../horses/web.htm

http://www.nal.usda....orses/Mills.htm

http://www.defra.gov...orses/index.htm

http://www.nal.usda....orses/Stull.htm

http://www.horsecoun...aleconomics.php

http://www.horsecoun...prop_act111.php

http://www.horsecoun...ueltyAct111.php

http://www.unwantedh...anasia_AAEP.pdf

http://www.unwantedh...0Horse_AAEP.pdf

http://www.unwantedh...nFarms_AAEP.pdf

http://www.unwantedh...msPape_AAEP.pdf

http://www.thehorse....ID=16882&src=VW

http://www.cyberfoal.com/

http://www.thehorse....e.aspx?ID=16278

http://legis.state.s...ile=SCR4ENR.htm

http://www.leg.state...FILE/139_01.pdf

http://premarin.org/#

http://www.thecoasta...hormone_therapy

http://www.projectce...ompany-profits/

http://kirk.house.go...3178&Itemid=128

http://www.canfact.ca/

http://www.awfc.ca/english/index.htm

http://www.aaep.org/...resentation.pdf

http://www.aaep.org/...mmit%202005.pdf

http://www.aaep.org/...=Current_Issues

http://www.tehachapi....com/node/10504

http://www.nal.usda....n1/10n1luba.htm

http://www.naeric.or...ut.asp?strNav=4

http://www.animallaw...s/stsphorse.htm

http://www.ryerss.com/

http://www.awionline...12919/pid/12919

http://www.awionline...11627/pid/11627

http://www.homesforhorses.org/myth.php

http://www.thehorse....le.aspx?ID=7447

http://www.horsegaze...ept/Canada.html

http://www.canyoncre...hat_is_PMU.html

http://www.premarin.org/index.html

http://vetsforequine...org/support.php

http://vetsforequine...g/usda_foia.php

http://vetsforequine...e.org/facts.php

http://vetsforequine...medications.php

http://www.inspectio...7/annexee.shtml

http://www.awionline...ntAction/i/7002

http://vetsforequine..._WhitePaper.pdf

http://www.ahdf.org/foals.htm

http://www.ahdf.org/slaughter.htm

http://www.hsus.org/...t_premarin.html

http://www.springhil...e.com/pmu.shtml

http://www.brokenear...captivebolt.htm

http://www.humanesoc...ter_011210.html

http://www.equinewel...s_2006-2009.pdf

http://unnecessaryev...ted-horses.html

http://tuesdayshorse...-mare-industry/

http://www.equestria...ding-02-09.html

http://www.producer.....aspx?aid=25441

http://www.horsesint...l.aspx?id=10142

http://www.examiner....er-consequences

http://www.equineweb...0703063728.html

http://www.thehorse....le.aspx?ID=7592

http://tuesdayshorse...orse-slaughter/

http://equineprotect...ter/collect.htm

http://www.slate.com/id/2212233/

http://www.gov.mb.ca...ngcosts2002.pdf

http://www.horsechan...reed-25593.aspx

http://www.uan.org/index.cfm?navId=75

http://www.animallaw...ter/article/541

http://www.animallaw...ter/article/541

http://www.animallaw...er/article/1432

http://www.animallaw...er/article/1162

http://hhhmhr.org/index.php/where.html

http://www.guidehors...se_adoption.htm


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## gimp (Sep 5, 2010)

sigh


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## Minimor (Sep 5, 2010)

gypsymoon--do you have any idea how many of those sites are the work of PETA or PETA-related organizations? Are you aware that PETA and people associated with PETA or other animal rights groups have--on multiple occasions--trespassed on private property to enter barns and make videos which DO NOT show the true conditions in those barns? Owners have entered their barns to find that mares have been tied up very short--way too short--and other things have been rigged so that they look as bad as possible--and they know that someone has been in there rigging things this way in order to make a propaganda video which is meant to show the world how awful the PMU barns are. It is amazing how many people want to believe this crap, and will not believe the truth.

Years ago, yes, there were barns which were less than pleasant for the mares. But that was a long time ago. For many years now there have been inspectors who check on the mares regularly--and they do not turn a blind eye if they see any mares that are not being well treated. Producers make sure their mares do not get sores from the harness--because if an inspector finds a mare that has a sore & is on the line, that producer's contract is GONE. Just that fast--GONE.

Are you aware that the guidelines are very strict? I know someone that built a new barn. Built it to spec, including the ceiling height. Then he poured the floor. That floor caused the ceiling to be 3 inches too low. 3 inches! It was still some 9 ft high, but because it was 3" lower than it was required to be, he had to raise that ceiling those 3 inches before he could use the barn. It was totally stupid--because 3" too low didn't mean the mares had insufficient head room, not by any means. But rules are rules, and they must be followed.

Water is not restricted for the mares, and hasn't been in a long time. The mares are in good shape, pretty much all across the board. Years back, not always, but that was YEARS back. You haven't been in any PMU barns to see for yourself, and you won't believe those who have been in the barns....yet you'll believe every propaganda video you see on the internet?

Do you know how many PMU foals are registered purebreds of various breeds? Do you know how many of those foals get sold to real owners, directly off the lines...how many of them never go to a meat auction....how many of them never go to a feedlot or a slaughter house? Do you know how many of them are being shown, in all sorts of events & in all disciplines? How many of them are winning in those competitions? I don't know the exact numbers, but they're way higher than the animal rights people would have you believe. And such has been the case for many many years now.


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## minimom1 (Sep 5, 2010)

I happen to own and show a 5 yr old QH that came from a PMU farm in Alberta. He is registered, well bred, good confo and a wonderful horse.


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## luvsminis (Sep 5, 2010)

Oh, how awful is that. I won't be able to sleep tonight for sure. I wish you could go get them. Would the sale barn have a number you could call, and they might give you the number of the guy who bought them. Those poor little babies. Why would they do that anyway? I hope you can find them in time.


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## frostedpineminis (Sep 5, 2010)

HI minimom I talked to a few people and have an idea of what buyer it was, I was also told that the price was way too high for them to go to slaughter as those are usually the price that they pay for adult quarter horses, so rest assured they are going to a new home!!! Also as for the mile long story I would like to point out that it is illegal to haul horses in a double decker and as for all the death and dehydration I will say... If you know how long it takes to raise a full grown horse you wouldnt say that they leave the foals behind or leave them down in the trailer, they dont make any money off of a dead horse. Foals are left with their mother and put in the pasture with the mares and foals that they already have and I have been in a truck that hauled horses, one went down and we pulled over at the next stop to unload everyone and get her up. Also if they are long hauled they have to stop for water every so many miles or hours, truckers run logs so they could not just keep driving. Minimom I hope that I found what you are looking for and like the others I am sorry that your stream got turned into a ethics talk, It just gets me that people are alright with the slaughter of cows but not horses, I am for rescues of the horses that are good but there are alot of horses out there that are no good. I work in the profession of animal health and dont get me wrong there is nothing wrong with euthanasia, but if everybody euthanized everything that was not wanted, what would you do with all the carcasses, why not let somebody else eat it if they want, horse sellers have to sign a paper as to what the animal recieved for drugs and the animal is in the feedlot for a minimum of 6 months after arriving just like for cattle, and horses dont recieve hormones so what is more dangerous to eat... anything made in factories and plants has the potential of drugs and hormones and pesticides, even vegetation.


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## tagalong (Sep 6, 2010)

> Well, you got me Tagalong. Im a liar and a sensationalist.


I never said you were a liar - I did say you favoured the sensationalist angle and seemed to have bought into a lot of the common spin that is out there.



> I have No idea what im talking about. I obviously don't have your extensive knowledge, nor have I personally witnessed the hundreds of actual slaughters that you must have to deem them humane.


And what exactly does your condescending, scathing sarcasm help with here? I never said I saw _hundreds_ of slaughters (but my friend who worked there did - so I guess he would know what he was talking about) - but YOU have never seen ONE. Not a video. Personally. ONE. And yet you feel free to sneer at anything I say.



> Sadly, I don't frequent PMU farms either to see the fair and just treatment of the mares there. I mean heck, they can lay down! They stand at the door begging to come back in the barn! Obviously they must be in great condition. Im sure that mentally they are at peace as well, since all horses do every day is stand around anyways, right?


And you continue sneering - every word dripping with condescension. I merely addressed the usual points about PMU barns that that are always howled about. You know - the mares are suffering, stressed, can't lay down, have harness burns, never get out, are unhealthy and so on. But once again, _you know better_ - and see fit to sneer at personal experiences and eyewitness accounts. Those mares DID bang at the gate to come back in...

How many PMU barns have you spent time at in the past? Were you assisting the vet carrying out the inspections, treating mares etc.? Did you see the conditions? Did you see the mares? Did you note that they were healthy, not stressed etc.?

Did you know that any mares that made it clear they could not handle that lifestyle wre not put on the line?

Did you know that the biggest nonsense of water beng witheld - was not true?

_Did you know that a stressed, unhealthy mare __*will not catch in foal?*__ Did you know that average conception rate for those farms was over 90%? Better than many Thoroughbred farms? _

Did you know any of that? DId you know that in the fall there are big productions sales in Alberta for PMU foals? Registered foals? And that many are sold through those sales? We attended many of those sales over the years - did you? I only wish that all the foals sold through those sales...





DId you know that PMU mares are turned out full time to pasture from about the end of March through to September/October? Quick - _how many high level show horses in many breeds enjoy that privilege? _

*Gypsy Moon* - sometimes what you are told is the norm - simply isn't. And sneering at others will not make it so. This is why I always hesitate to mention my personal experiences - as someone who "knows better" always reacts just as you have.







> I bow to your superior knowledge, your vast amount of personal experience. I think Ill go find some bees to save or maybe Ill make me a sign for global warming...Ignorance is bliss they say.


*Arrogance seems to be bliss as well.* Perhaps you should consider the fact that others are allowed to have different opinions than you - and that they might actually have FACTS to share that should not be discarded simply because they may not agree with the "facts" you have decided are the only ones that should ever be considered.

I have lived, breathed and worked for horses in the horse industry (and yes, it is an industry) for more than 25 years - 24/7/52... in a variety of disciplines and breeds. I have made it a point to see all sides of every contentious issue _for myself._ Everything I have related to you is 100% true - and yet you see fit to use YouTube videos as "evidence" that ALL slaughterhouses or PMU barns or whatever all work the same way. You "know" this. _Your research seems to prefer and embrace the sensationalist aspect of everything and you seem to be suggesting that I am a liar_.... and that does not help the horses in any way.

Oh well - soon you will have one less thing to worry about. Chemical replacements for Premarin are gaining ground and in time, the PMU barns will be gone...

As an aside, when I was at the agriculture college many years ago... we trimmed the feet of sleek, dappled Percheron mares as part of our farrier course. Those mares came from a PMU barn... and were well-adjusted, calm, well-mannered and easy to deal with. If only all the other horses we dealt with were like that. They happily loaded back into their trailer to go back to the PMU ranch... and no, they were not a figment of my imagination.








> I have been in a truck that hauled horses, one went down and we pulled over at the next stop to unload everyone and get her up. Also if they are long hauled they have to stop for water every so many miles or hours, truckers run logs so they could not just keep driving.


*frostedpineminis* - I am sure that you imagined all that as well..





Sorry for the long-winded post, everyone.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 6, 2010)

Playing devils advocate, here, a few points spring to mind.

Why are nurse mare farms even _legal?_

They want to breed form a valuable TB mare they can do embryo transplant, if she is that valuable. If she is not, why make it easy for even more animal abuse?

On the other hand....do you not know how milk is manufactured?

On a day to day basis, cows are kept permanently pregnant and have their calves removed after they have taken the colostrum- where, pray, is the uproar?

And all this so that humans can consume something for which they have absolutely NO need?????

PMU....why is this still happening?

There has been a synthetic HRT on the market for donkeys years...USE IT!!!


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## disneyhorse (Sep 6, 2010)

HGFarm said:


> For the mini mules that were 'purchased for bbq', is there proof that that is what really happened to them or was someone joking about it to 'yank someone's chain'??? And I would say that most everyday people do not go to the sale looking for bbq meat in the form of a miniature horse, LOL. I am not saying that there may be a time when something that is sick, old or something may go for slaughter, but on the whole, we dont see it here often either in the Miniature world.


I was sitting right next to the Hispanic family that was discussing if they should just get one to barbecue, or if they could handle two. At first I wasn't sure what I was hearing, but they had a discussion and then bid on the second one. They were discussing inviting others over to share the following weekend. I am sure there are butchers around that handle all sorts of animals, whether you buy a cow or ??? but $30 for a whole animal is probably pretty cheap meat.

Andrea

P.S. I want to add that I am a vegetarian, and I don't see any difference between eating a cow or a miniature mule. I don't see that anyone who eats meat can be anti-slaughter. What makes an equine more special than any other type of animal? Does it look and act "cuter"? Therefore, I don't see horse slaughter as the biggest issue. I think if the world went vegetarian, that would cut down on BILLIONS more animal lives being spared. Production farms of cattle and pigs and chickens and such wouldn't have such a huge output of slaughtered animals. So that's the big picture for me.


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## Minimor (Sep 6, 2010)

Now that you mention it Andrea, I remember being told a long time ago by a guy that did some buying of meat horses that some people really like mules for eating, because their meat is more marbled.

I couldn't eat a mule any easier than I could eat a horse and I definitely would prefer to not hear anyone discussing which or how many mules or horses they should buy for their neighborhood BBQ next weekend. ick.


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## tagalong (Sep 6, 2010)

> They want to breed form a valuable TB mare they can do embryo transplant, if she is that valuable.


No, they can't. All Thoroughbreds must be live cover as per The Jockey Club. No embryo transplants allowed. So Rachel Alexandra and Zenyatta will be bred and carry their own foals...

BTW - there are Nurse Mare networks during foaling season for mares who have lost their foals and might adopt an orphaned or rejected foal..



> PMU....why is this still happening?There has been a synthetic HRT on the market for donkeys years...USE IT!!!


Which was why I said that the PMU barns are slowly being phased out... and in due course, will not exist. Will that make a huge dent in the amount of horses going to slaughter? No.

I never said that I am a huge fan of slaughter or the PMU industry - but I think that we need to stick to facts and not speak in sweeping generalizations.... or support organizations like PETA that are great at pointing fingers and screaming foul to make headlines - and yet often do not hold up to inspection.

Like the PETA twits who released thousands of mink from a fur farm north of here years ago... they thought that all those mink would be f_ree, free, free!_ Mink who did not know how to hunt and were clueless about the world. They died by the hundreds on the highway, were torn apart by dogs, fought each other, starved etc. No one cared that those mink would suffer out in the wild - they only knew that they had done a good thing and liberated them!

Just wait until they decide that it is beyond cruel for minis to be pulling us around in carts...


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## shorthorsemom (Sep 6, 2010)

Quote...."On the other hand....do you not know how milk is manufactured?

On a day to day basis, cows are kept permanently pregnant and have their calves removed after they have taken the colostrum- where, pray, is the uproar?

And all this so that humans can consume something for which they have absolutely NO need?????"

Did you know dairy farmers can buy sex selected semen? They raise their own heifers. Some allow the babies to nurse for several weeks before separating them from their mothers even if it means less milk in the tank, and then they hand feed them bottles until they can drink from a bucket. They hand raise their babies carefully as they are the next generation of milk cows. One baby a year and keep the calf. Stressed cows don't make much milk and there are farmers dedicated to making their cows very comfortable.

It has been a harsh couple of years for the american dairy farmer, please understand there are still small family farms out there that treat every animal as an individual, provide a kind existance and call each cow by name.

Well I guess this thread has just about made everybody defensive about something, please don't fry me.

As far as those mini babies go, I think it is cool how many members wanted to jump in to try to do something. very cool indeed.


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## Lewella (Sep 6, 2010)

As tagalong said the Jockey Club does not permit AI or embryo transfer. One of the primary reasons for this rule is to prevent the narrowing of the gene pool even further. The Thoroughbred industry is dealing with an extremely narrow gene pool - dangerously narrow. If popular stallions could service two or three mares per collection instead of one per live cover popular stallions would soon have an even greater influence on the overall gene pool of the breed than they already do. (The top stallions are already standing 6 months in the Northern Hemesphere and 6 months in the Southern Hemesphere and breeding hundreds of mares each per year!)

Nurse mares aren't nearly as common in the Thoroughbred industry as most people seem to believe. Yes, the Thoroughbred mares have to go to the stud to be bred but the vast majority send the mare prior to foaling to a mare barn close to where the stallion is standing to be foaled out and bred back. Most foaling operations only use nurse mares as a last resort for a mare that isn't producing enough milk to raise her foal, has to be put down, or something else catastrophic.

As for synthetic HRT - it doesn't work for all women so until something is developed that works for everyone there will always be the need for PMU operations.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 6, 2010)

tagalong said:


> Like the PETA twits who released thousands of mink from a fur farm north of here years ago... they thought that all those mink would be f_ree, free, free!_ Mink who did not know how to hunt and were clueless about the world. They died by the hundreds on the highway, were torn apart by dogs, fought each other, starved etc. No one cared that those mink would suffer out in the wild - they only knew that they had done a good thing and liberated them!
> 
> Just wait until they decide that it is beyond cruel for minis to be pulling us around in carts...


Actually we had that happen here and the mink did just fine, now, if we could just find a way, any way I really do not care, of eradicating the nasty, vicious little killers, as they have done more harm to the indigenous wildlife than any other single introduced species, bar, possibly, the coypu, and they were innocent vegetarians, they just annihilated the environment!

Mink are bad news, really really bad news!

I had not thought about TBs being embryo transplant free, but you can bet your boots that, were the nurse mare industry to be banned, some well to do person would find a way of getting the rules changed.

Having a string of mares that will take an extra or orphaned foal cannot, btw, be likened to the nurse mare industry. We have organisations like that over here, both ad hoc and professional, it is a whole different ball game.

There are no nurse mare farms, they would not be legal.

Dairy farmers routinely take calves away from the cows, they do not need one replacement heifer from each cow each year, and anyway the sexed semen is more expensive and if you are raising waste calves, cross bred meat calves, and bull calves to boot, are more lucrative. Please do not try to tell me dairy farmers are nice kind humane people, you may know one, or have a couple in your family, who are, but, as with any other "business" that involves animals as machines, they cannot afford to be.

On the whole I think they are OK, but the cows are machines, and once the machine starts losing production levels, it is _gone_, in fact the cows are normally sent to market every three to four years irrespective of their production levels as it basically easier to do it that way.

And all to put a product on your table that you do not need but have been brain washed into thinking that you do!

I do not know exactly how many people are lactose intolerant but judging by the ADHD levels in kids it has to be pretty high!

If we just stopped using all dairy products the human race would be better off, I feel.


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## frostedpineminis (Sep 6, 2010)

I cant believe that a post about a couple of minis turned into this...I am really sick and tired of people trying to tell me that if I eat lettuce for the rest of my life everything would be just great. I eat meat and use animal products and always will. People should just keep their opinions to themselves, we dont rag on you that you have too many kids and they are overpopulating or that your house destroyed a habitat for squirrels or raccoons, or that you killed that spider in the tub last week or that you have a cat that eats catfood and that is animals that have been slaughtered. You can believe what you want but dont tell me that I am a monster for eating meat or keeping a cow in a warm dairy barn with the best feed you can provide, they do not go through any more pain losing that calf then your breeding horses do weaning a colt, dont flatter yourself that you always do the right thing. people in glass houses shouldnt throw stones.


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## shorthorsemom (Sep 6, 2010)

I am a dairy farmer and we cut an existance out of the dirt for very little appreciation and very little money. We keep every heifer we get. I cry when we lose a cow or a calf. I know plenty of horse people that breed every year and lose plenty of babies and I see plenty of ads for minis priced at give away prices. This post is just getting mean. If you aren't a dairy farmer, then you cannot give comment on the life of one or of their animals.

All my pet animals are neutered. I slave away to rescue countless cats that morons think are better chucked and disposed on a farm. I rescue dogs that are disposed here too.

I do not breed horses, nor will I ever, but I do think the horse over population is as sad as the dog and cat and everything over population.

I eat meat, I drink milk and I wear leather. I farm


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## JWC sr. (Sep 6, 2010)

Wow I did not know I was such a big fat "O" in so many folks book!!!

I eat meat (ate some venison last night), love milk, hunt, own guns, think a dairy farm is one of the hardest ways to make a living in agriculture, wear leather boots, killed a spider last night in the barn, watched a cool horse race last night on cable, believe in treating all animals with respect up until the time they are processed, have a wife that uses PMU produced products and am in general all those things some have a problem with. I am surprised some of you will even talk to me anymore!!!








All kidding aside folks, I am just trying to lighten things up a little. Peace my friends, there is a lot of hype and spin in all these subjects!!! Hopefully we are all intelligent enough to listen and then try to find the facts as they really are and only then form our own individual opinions.

Not just take for granted that those that produce videos, have ad campaign's and spend a lot of money asking for donations are always right. They do most of the time spin things for their own well being and agenda!!


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## Minimor (Sep 6, 2010)

I support dairy farms! IMO life wouldn't be worth living if I couldn't ever eat ice cream again!!! I like my milk too, for that matter, but ice cream tops my list of favorite foods!

I got lost somewhere, I have no idea how this thread took the turn to bashing dairy farming?

And thank you to Lewella for pointing out that the synthetic hormones don't work for some people, and that is why PMU farms still exist, though in very reduced numbers now. If synthetic works for you, GREAT, but don't condemn those that still use the real thing!

Oh, and I do kill spiders too! Anyone wants to save the spiders they had better remove them from my property and get them well away from me (please, feel free to do so!!)


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## Songcatcher (Sep 6, 2010)

JWC sr. said:


> I eat meat (ate some venison last night), love milk, hunt, own guns, think a dairy farm is one of the hardest ways to make a living in agriculture, wear leather boots, killed a spider last night in the barn, watched a cool horse race last night on cable, believe in treating all animals with respect up until the time they are processed, have a wife that uses PMU produced products and am in general all those things some have a problem with. I am surprised some of you will even talk to me anymore!!!


I'm with you John! Except when I drink milk, it must be buttermilk.

These OMG threads always turn out to be the same thing. Some people believe everything they see on TV (or Youtube). Some of those are isolated incidents, and some of them are actually staged by the people who claim to be against it.

Some people don't seem to understand that there is a difference in treating animals humanely and treating them like a human.

Regarding dairy farms, I was born on a dairy farm. Nice green pastures (when the water board would let us have enough water to irrigate), and calves raised (usually 4-6 at a time) on a nurse cow that was difficult to milk. My folks couldn't make a living at it and sold out. Moved to southern California and my dad went to work on a large commercial dairy.... I've seen both sides of it.


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## shorthorsemom (Sep 6, 2010)

Thanks JWC and Minimor





It 2009 and 2010 have been the two hardest years for us as dairy farmers . I don't think a single dairy farmer in the US last year made money for their milk what it cost to produce it. Most of us are barely surviving, but still take excellent care of our animals and take great pride in being a farmer. My husband puts in a 14-16 hour day, so anything anti-dairy makes me just want to tell people that there are dedicated farmers out there putting in long hours and pampering and caring for their animals too. We stay up all night on calf watch just like horse breeders do waiting for a foal. We don't have money for a nice camera, we sit on a straw bale on baby watch and go without sleep sometimes. I'd give anything for one of those cool cameras people have when they are on mare stare. You can learn alot from reading these posts.. I want a camera but Santa isn't listening.

I love ice cream too. It should be on the top of the food pyramid. yum.


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## SHANA (Sep 7, 2010)

rabbitfiz I don't know where you got your information about dairy farmers but not all dairy farmers are bad. We have a dairy farm, all our cows are treasured and if sick, etc we have the vet for them. Yes our calves are pulled from the cows when born but are raised on fresh cows milk daily until weaned. We usually keep 5-6 of our heifers and sell the rest, we have sold some in the past to people for there kids to use in 4-H, etc. Our bull calves we give away, a lot of the 4-H kids get them around here, they are nice show steers for 4-H and some have even been given to be used as oxen. We don't keep one replacement heifer per cow, we keep usually around 5-6 heifers a year. We have our own bull and do not inseminate cows much.


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## minimom1 (Sep 7, 2010)

Maybe I should not have titled my post OMG !

I did not mean to start a post bashing anyone, and how it turned out to be about dairy's I am not sure.

I am not anti slaughter, I am however against inhumane treatment of slaughter animals. I am not here to point fingers at who is to blame for this equine over population problem as there are so many levels involved you could never blame just one.

I personally do not breed any of my animals but I do have a 2 month old colt that came from a mare in foal purchased by another person at an auction. I geld / spay / nueter every animal I own just as soon as they are old enough. I choose to not be a part of adding to the unwanted animals of the world.

I give kudos to those who do responsibly breed to better their breed be it horse, dog, cow, chicken etc.

I guess I was just shocked to know that weanlings would go to slaughter but according to many here they wouldn't have. I did not ever think my origonal post would have sparked such a debate and for that I am sorry.

I too eat meat, use animal products and LOVE ice cream.


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## Lewella (Sep 7, 2010)

shorthorsemom said:


> Thanks JWC and Minimor
> 
> 
> 
> ...


As my friends know my personal opinion is "Everything is better with butter! (and bacon...)"



(And we milk anywhere from 60 to 90 cows with 40 or so replacement heifers of various ages that we've bred and raised ourselves waiting in the wings!)


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