# Does this mean I have a paint?



## O So (Aug 20, 2010)

I noticed this small white patch on O So a while back ago, but never thought much of it because it was real small! Then today after a gave him a bath I noticed another white patch under his belly! It is a bit bigger!

Does this mean I have a paint? LOL






Small spot.... Can you see it? It's by his mane!!






Bigger spot.....






I don't think I can classify him as a paint, but I thought it was pretty neat to find the other white patch!!





Just thought I'd share my find!!





Kim


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## Marty (Aug 20, 2010)

Miniature Horses don't come in Paint. Sorry! But you may have a minimal pinto marking there.


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## O So (Aug 20, 2010)

Marty said:


> Miniature Horses don't come in Paint. Sorry! But you may have a minimal pinto marking there.


Shows you how much I know! LOL I thought paints were brown and white and pintos were black and white!

Pinto would be even better because I collect the Ford kind! LOL:BigGrin


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## RhineStone (Aug 21, 2010)

Paints are only Quarter Horses or Thoroughbreds with "color" (white above the knees and/or hocks, not including facial markings). A pinto is any breed including QHs and TBs.

It's a common mistake, therefore I am taking this opportunity for "education".



It can get a whole lot more complicated, i.e. Breeding Stock Paints, but that is a whole other topic. Minis are always and only pintos.


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## Marty (Aug 21, 2010)

Aw don't feel bad OSo. Takes a while and you'll get it. Hey, we all learn something new every day. I know I sure do. And welcome by the way.

Besides, you would be surprised if you looked at some websites. People that actually call themselves miniature horse breeders and refer to their horses as paints. You'd think a breeder would know that at the very least. They don't even know what they are breeding. Boggles the mind.


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## O So (Aug 21, 2010)

Is it normal for white patches to show up later in life? Although he is only 2 LOL! I have given him 3 baths and brush him almost everyday and this is the first time I have seen the spot on his belly! I should have named him spot! LOL Just kidding!!


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## Tony (Aug 21, 2010)

Long before the American Paint Horse Association was founded paint and pinto were synonymous, meaning that they were two different words for the same horse pattern: a horse with large patches of color. Once the APHA was started they claimed the word paint and through the years people have accepted that only horses registered with Them and all other horses of the same color accepted the use of pinto. Historically the both terms are the same color.

From Horse Breeds

Paint (horse), also called pinto, breed of horse with spotted coloring. The paint played a large role in the early North American West. It descended from Andalusian horses, which Spanish conquistadors brought to the Americas in the 16th century. The name comes from the Spanish pintado, meaning painted, and cowboys simply called this horse the paint.


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## Sixstardanes (Aug 21, 2010)

Just this year our 8yr old pinto Saber developed a new white "spot" near the right side of his neck


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## Bunnylady (Aug 21, 2010)

I have a palomino 2-year-old, whose sire was an appaloosa. Her hooves are very slightly stripey, and nearly every day, I look at her and ask, "is she or isn't she?" Last year, she showed me a couple of white spots on her neck, they aren't there now. They sure can drive you crazy!


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## Lewella (Aug 21, 2010)

The spot up by his mane may be the start of lacing. If it is he'll gradually get more white along his topline. The belly spot could be a pinto marking or it could be a large birdcathcer spot. Birdcatcher spots are one of those things that just happens with no known explaination.


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## Minimor (Aug 21, 2010)

piebald and skewbald are the terms used to describe black/white and brown/white--I just never remember which is which. I've never been into pintos and people here just generally don't use those two words when talking about their pintos. Those terms are more commonly used in England, or used to be? (National Velvet is about the only time I've actually heard the term piebald used.)


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## love_casper (Aug 21, 2010)

Piebald/skewbald were terms used looong ago to describe black and whites, vs other colored pintos, respectively. Rather outdated now, and really use of either those - or any other fancy word that is not the simple base color with modifier for that matter - are just too confusing and extraneous word play. Like the ridiculous words used to describe different shades of roan or dun. Like strawberry roan or zebra dun.



Things like that nearly give newbies the impression that the ones with flowery titles for colors are somehow different than those owned by people who call them what they are. Marketing strategy perhaps. /rant.

Original question, to me that very well looks to be minimal pinto pattern there. If it's just showing up now, I'd suspect a Sabino gene (there are multiple), as it has been known to show up more with age like that. And I don't know if its just the lighting or my lap top, but I see some white hairs mixed in here and there in the rest of his coat, which is also a Sabino thing.

Appies can do that too, but those spots tend to appear across the topline first, rather than the belly where your horse's is. And of course they must be appy bred to for that to happen anyway.


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## djskid (Aug 21, 2010)

O So said:


> Does this mean I have a paint? LOL
> 
> 
> 
> ...




If he had a tiny (smaller than a quarter) white spot right at the at the base of his mane, would he go in the solid or multi coloured class?


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## Charlotte (Aug 21, 2010)

That belly spot sure looks like the kind of spot you see on a minimal pinto. That up by his withers looks like it could be the same thing or the beginning of lacing which I absolutely love. If it's lacing he'll probably get more and more for some years.

Yes, you could have named him 'Spot'!



Redrock had a filly one year that they named Redrock Two Spot! And I bet you can guess the reason for that name..

Charlotte


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## Annabellarose (Aug 22, 2010)

Piebald was used to describe a black and white pinto while skewbald was used to describe a (any other color; bay, chestnut, etc.) and white pinto. That's why National Velvet's "Pie" was called "Pie", because he was a black and white pinto!

Pinto is a pattern, "Paint" is a breed. "Paint" is just a short name for a horse that is an American Paint Horse which is a breed of horse; quite like a Poodle is a breed of dog. American Paint Horses have to have the bloodlines of an American Paint Horse as well as the pinto pattern. If an American Paint Horse (bloodline) is not a pinto (pattern) he only qualifies as a Breeding Stock Paint.


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## Annabellarose (Aug 22, 2010)

Then, to compound all of this



, there are different kinds of pinto patterns! You have tobiano and overo and tovero and, and, and I am not the most qualified person to describe the different kinds of pinto patterns. I am a fan of tobianos myself!


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## Margo_C-T (Aug 22, 2010)

Oh, my! THIS again!

To the OP...the belly spot *could* be a sign of minimal pinto. I don't know about birdcatcher spots; never have heard that they would occur under the belly? I have personally had several miniatures that likely carry sabino(some manifest, some presumed by knowing their parentage)have small white areas, esp. 'roany', 'show up' as they aged. PtHA did have some specific 'square inches of color' requirements before you could show a horse in color as a pinto; not sure if the mini breed rules are at all specific about what constitutes 'enough' to show in Multicolor? I do think white spots would need to be at least visible from the judge's standing position...?

As Tony said(and well; thank you, Tony!!)...the 'generic', non-capitalized, if you will, terms 'pinto' and 'paint', historically, AND can still, refer to EXACTLY the same thing...that is, certain spotting patterns on horses. Yes, the American PAINT Horse Assoc.(APHA)was created in order to register such spotted horses(because 'back then' such horses were rejected by the AQHA BASED ON that spotting!) that were of 'only'of stock horse type--i.e.,basically only QH and TB breeding...bloodlines were first, 'pattern' more secondary.(Oversimplified, but basically how it was.)

The PINTO Horse Assn. of America(PtHA), OTOH, began as being 'more about' the color pattern itself, and accepted about EVERY 'type', though they eventually declared several specific types, to include Hunter, Pleasure, and Stock(there are now more, plus pony designations...I just don't immediately recall them all)...'pattern' was first, bloodlines/type more secondary.(see above)

There is an irony in this...I am not 'involved' in either APHA or PtHA as I once and for years, was, but understand that things have changed. SOME horses of the specified spotting patterns, once rejected by AQHA, must now be accepted for full registry there(as long as both parents were/are duly registered in AQHA)...lawsuits dictated, no more rejecting horses whose parents are fully-qualified AQHA on the basis of their coat color/pattern, as I understand it...and PtHA, who once had very stringent 'square inch of white', and 'pink skin underneath', and 'placement on the horse...IOW, 'visible color'requirements... has now greatly relaxed those requirements, so I hear. Of course, we all know that there is no bad color on a good horse, don't we? Personally, having been involved w/ AQHA since the early '50s, I ALWAYS thought they were foolish to reject otherwise qualified pinto/paints!

I realize that many who haven't been around for as long in the history of the registries I've mentioned as I have may not be familiar with background from before they existed, and so believe that it is 'only about' the 'color/pattern-based' registries mentioned, but it is STILL absolutely correct historically, when referring to the fact that ANY equine has a certain kind of coat spotting pattern, to refer to that equine as a 'pinto' OR a 'paint'--so don't be made to feel foolish for doing so.

Piebald/skewbald are terms still apparently in use overseas; not so much over on this side of the Atlantic...at least not in my part of North America.

Margo - who bred my first REGISTERED QH in '55, owned an unregistered, but would-have-been-eligible for-BOTH-the-color-registries-mentioned, paint mare by around the same year, and my first REGISTERED Pinto/Paint gelding in the early '70s. The first AMHA miniature I trained and breed-showed(to be an AMHA Champion)was a paint/pinto gelding...and I referred to him properly w/ EITHER term.


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## O So (Aug 22, 2010)

Wow you guy's! Thanks for all the explanations on Paints and Pintos!

In all honesty, I was just kind of being a bit silly on my asking about him being a paint. I just thought it was neat he got some white spots in him! I don't even think he has a Pinto back ground! Guess I should check his papers closer to see if he does!

Thanks for all the great info!!

Kim


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## Dona (Aug 23, 2010)

Don't know if this has already been mentioned.....but a "true" white spot would have pink skin under it. If the skin is dark, the spots are probably caused by something else, such as Sabino roaning, Appy roaning, birdcatcher spots, etc.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Aug 23, 2010)

O So said:


> I noticed this small white patch on O So a while back ago, but never thought much of it because it was real small! Then today after a gave him a bath I noticed another white patch under his belly! It is a bit bigger!
> 
> Does this mean I have a paint? LOL
> 
> ...


Is his mane white? Let's see the whole horse! Minis are often minimally marked even if they carry the tobiano pinto gene. (or sabino, splash, frame...)


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## O So (Aug 23, 2010)

Dontworrybeappy said:


> Is his mane white? Let's see the whole horse! Minis are often minimally marked even if they carry the tobiano pinto gene. (or sabino, splash, frame...)


Here is a good shot of his mane!












One last shot, different lighting! I call this one, O So tired! LOL






He is getting his winter coat in already! Luckily it isn't really long yet, supposed to be 104 tomorrow!!! Time to turn the misters back on!!!!

Kim


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## Dontworrybeappy (Aug 23, 2010)

ah, so the white mane is because he's silver... no clues about his "pinto-ness" from the full body shots!


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## O So (Aug 23, 2010)

Dontworrybeappy said:


> ah, so the white mane is because he's silver... no clues about his "pinto-ness" from the full body shots!


He looks brown to me? ( insert head scratching smiley here)

I will try to post some more pics later!


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## O So (Aug 23, 2010)

Ok, here are some recent one's! Sad to say, it is shots of his mane after he rubbed it all off.



We are dealing with some itchiness right now! Getting better though, so that is good!

O So and Tiga!
















His registration papers say Chesnut with Flaxen mane and tail!


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## Dona (Aug 24, 2010)

O So said:


> Ok, here are some recent one's! Sad to say, it is shots of his mane after he rubbed it all off.
> 
> 
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....a good example of how WRONG colors can be on registration papers.

Your little guy is a Silver Black (his particular shade is also known as Chocolate Silver). It is the result of the silver gene on a black horse.


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## O So (Aug 24, 2010)

Dona said:


> ....a good example of how WRONG colors can be on registration papers.
> 
> Your little guy is a Silver Black (his particular shade is also known as Chocolate Silver). It is the result of the silver gene on a black horse.


Wow, I would have never figured him as silver black!!! He defenitly looks brown! I don't see silver in him at all in person, maybe in a few pics he may appear to have silver, but I chalked that up to the lighting!


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## Sandee (Aug 24, 2010)

How old O so is? I ask because one of the colts by my stallion LOOKED chestnut with flaxen mane and tail until he was nearly 3. Then he began to have odd white spots and each year those spots got bigger. He is now showing himself to be snowflake appy.

My guy did not show outward signs of being appy. He was born looking like a grey pinto (no "grey" in the background; he's silver dapple) but he darkens and lightens with the seasons and now (at 7 yr old) is getting more tiny white spots in different places on his body also.


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## Minimor (Aug 25, 2010)

> Wow, I would have never figured him as silver black!!! He defenitly looks brown! I don't see silver in him at all in person, maybe in a few pics he may appear to have silver, but I chalked that up to the lighting


Actually the silver is quite obvious--silver is what turns his black coat to brown (or chocolate) and turns his black mane and tail to that silver/white color.


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## O So (Aug 25, 2010)

Ok, my vet said he is a silver dapple!

That is just amazing how the colors work! I mean, he looks brown to me! LOL

That raises another question, but I will ask it in a new thread!


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