# Converting a "little Red Radio Flyer Wagon" to a cart



## sls (Jan 3, 2010)

Has anyone ever converted a Child's Red Flyer Radio Wagon (child's "little red wagon") for a miniature horse to pull? I would like to do this and have seen some of the kits to convert the handles to shafts and tree, etc., but has anyone ever really done this and how did it work out?






This sounds like fun, but before investing in this endevor (Radio Flyer Wagons are not cheap) it sure would be nice to see if this has worked for others.

Let me hear your experiences.





Sherry


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## sls (Jan 4, 2010)

Anyone have experience coverting a wagon for a mini to pull?


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## RhineStone (Jan 4, 2010)

I was going to see what others said first, but knowing that you are interested in an answer, I'll put in my 2 cents.





I think it is a bad idea.

The wheel base on a child's wagon is too narrow to be safe, especially for turning. Think about if you had the wagon full of potted plants, turned it sharp just as you went over a depression in the grass. The whole wagon would tip over toward the "outside" front corner of the turn.

It is also too low, as you won't be able to see where you are going. I also wouldn't use it without someone on the "box" holding the lines. This is one area where minis lose a lot of credibility in the "big" horse world. There are quite a few mini people who will lead their horse that is pulling the cart. Driving shows have very strong suggestions against not having someone in the cart when the horse is put to, because if that horse would happen to get away from the handler on the ground, that cart becomes a "weapon", both for the horse and people. I have seen it happen. It has not become a rule yet, because there are concerns as to how to enforce it, not because it isn't a good idea. Even draft horses pulling stone boats and logs have someone on the lines of the horses, not leading them by the head.

Just my opinion. I like to see horses and people safe in one piece!


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## disneyhorse (Jan 4, 2010)

I would suggest finding a good easy-entry cart instead, which is made for the purpose. Much more comfortable and SAFE. You wouldn't want to risk a child's safety...

Andrea


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Jan 4, 2010)

This isn't a radio flyer wagon (I don't think anyway) but it worked for our training - maybe alittle sturdier than a radio flyer? It had the kit installed on it:


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 4, 2010)

That looks great fun!!

I have a garden trolley that Bertie pulls, sorry, never took any pictures, don't know why!!

I also have a two wheeled wheelbarrow that has made an absolutely BRILLIANT training cart, I had shafts made for it!! I sit ion a bucket in that, too, I do have pictures of that somewhere.....


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## sls (Jan 5, 2010)

*Thanks for the all the great input. What I wanted the Radio Flyer Wagon for is not driving. We have larger minis and carts for this. We were looking at options for our smaller minis who have gone through the basic ground training to provide something they could pull. Please note someone would be leading them.*

Does anyone have any ideas with any other options to do this other than a Radio Flyer Wagon? This is the only thing I have found on the internet?


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 5, 2010)

How big are the horses??


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## Bunnylady (Jan 5, 2010)

WhiteTailsMinis' wagon is more or less a garden cart. If you look carefully at the third picture, you will see that the front wheels are turned, but are still located at the front corners of the cart. This design is much more stable than the typical "little red wagon." The Radio Flyer (and most of the other brands) have the front wheels attached to a central pivot post. When you turn these wagons, the whole wheel assembly rotates, and one front wheel goes right under the cart. This is why wagons tend to tip over when you turn them! I would never hook a horse to that type of wagon, even if no one ever rode in it. IMO they are too unstable - imagine how a horse would react if the wagon were to tip over while he was pulling it!

We have two garden carts with the same type of wheel arrangement as WhiteTailsMinis. The point of attachment for the handle is different from a wagon's, as well. One of ours even came with a hitch for connecting it behind a garden tractor. I forget where, but I have seen almost exactly WTM's rig for sale somewhere, (sans bucket, of course!)


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## Charley (Jan 5, 2010)

We purchased on eBay a handmade goat cart that was used for a reindeer at Christmas time. Our plan is to use it with our 27.75 stallion for Christmas parades. I don't have any photos of it. I recently sent it off to be repaired, painted and new fabric put on the seat.

If you do look at goat carts make sure you get measurements as they are small.


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## ~Amanda~ (Jan 5, 2010)

Here is a page I found that might help: http://www2.localaccess.com/rockyrun/car1.htm



It is for a goat cart, but I assume you could easily modify it for Miniature Horses.


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## rubyviewminis (Jan 5, 2010)

The Maxfield's in Utah do a lot of driving in parades and training for driving. Their website MinisRUs has a section on driving. The converted a cute green wagon to a covered wagon for their tiny mini to pull one of their children in the parade. I would love to do the same because it is adorable. Check it out.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 5, 2010)

Horses, Mini or any size, are flight animals. When frightened their first instinct is to bolt and run for their life. Dogs, who are frequently used to pull carts while being led, are predatory animals whose first instinct is to turn and face an attacker. This is the reason why horses should not be used to pull such a small and unstable vehicle such as a garden cart or child's wagon. Even though small, Minis are quite strong, and you would be hard pressed to stop one that is fleeing with a wagon attached. It can be done a hundred times without incident but that one time is going to get someone hurt, so why do it. When a horse bolts with you in the cart you at least stand a chance of going with it and stopping him preventing injury to the horse, yourself, or others.


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## sls (Jan 5, 2010)

rabbitsfizz said:


> How big are the horses??


approximately 30 inches


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## rubyviewminis (Jan 5, 2010)

As large horses in most parades have outriders for crowd safety, pulling children wagons and garden carts is very safe while being led. I nor anyone I know would ever let a small child be anywhere in a wagon, cart, whatever without having an adult Lead the mini. I don't think I would use one for my grandchildren if it was unstable either!


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## Katiean (Jan 5, 2010)

We only paid $300 for this wagon.






Note that the front wheels, even though they turn like a garden wagon, are taller than the base of the wagon. So, if you were to turn the horse sharp, the wheels will hit the sides of the wagon therefore the wagon is not unstable. This is a very easy wagon to copy.


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## sls (Jan 5, 2010)

Katiean said:


> We only paid $300 for this wagon.
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Now that is cool. Is there someone that makes these?


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## Katiean (Jan 6, 2010)

From what I was told there was a man making these wagons. They are a very simple wagon and could easily be reproduced if you have the ability to do the metal bending and drilling the holes.


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## Shari (Jan 6, 2010)

Now I have seen those giant garden center carts that could safely converted in a work cart for a mini. I would worry about sitting on a bucket...because no matter what if your horse bolts, you are going to be flipped off the back.

Some company's do sell Buckboard seats that can be bolted onto carts like that.

If you want to do farm work with minis you can use a Forecart...with a work bed pulled behind it...or use a Buckboard.

http://www.buggy.com/miniforecart.html

There are other folks that make a forecart for mini horses.

These folks can custom make you one. They make useable and safe farm equipment.

http://www.pioneerfarmequipment.com/

http://www.oxbowtradeco.com/inv.php/v14

http://www.buggy.com/minibuckboard.html

A lot of these places will custom make something for you.

http://hansenwheel.com/products/custom_wag...buckboards.html

Sugar Rock also makes buckboards.


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## RhineStone (Jan 6, 2010)

As someone who has been driving minis and large horses for 20 years, it is my opinion that much of the advice being given here is TOTALLY against good driving practices, regardless whether or not you have a miniature horse. If these practices were done with large horses in public, experienced drivers would have a heyday!





First, you NEVER just lead a horse pulling something, as MiLo Minis has already stated. You can read her reasons above. I will add mine and the rest of the driving horse industry's:

When you are leading a horse without something attached, and it decides to bolt, jump, etc., the horse swings around but you still have their head, because a horse can't leave w/o it's head. When you have something attached, then the horse can't swing very effectively w/o sideways pressure on the wheels, which in turn will dump the cart over. Either that, or because the horse can't swing, it bolts harder in front of the handler. In either case, said cart becomes a weapon for both human and horse.



With the driver in the cart when the horse decides to "leave", it can move sideways in the front because it's head is "free", and the wheels will pivot and take up the sideways motion. If it bolts forward, the driver moves with the cart, therefore hopefully staying with it, and stopping it before it becomes an issue. I know that when I have been in the vehicle of a bolting horse, there is no way that I could keep up with it on foot! Yes, in both situations, a driven horse can still dump the cart, and I have seen that happen. I think there would be more wrecks if those bolting horses were only headed without someone in the cart with reins in hand. American Driving Society has strong concerns about people on foot heading horses, but to have a horse pull a garden cart while leading the horse is not just trying to keep it in one place.

I'm not trying to ruin anyone's fun, but quite the opposite. If you have a wreck with a horse, #1 - You and/or the horse and/or spectators may get hurt, #2 - Your horse may never drive or pull anything again. Case in point, very early in our learning to drive, we had a QH that we trained to drive. My mom was signed up for a parade, but at the last minute she didn't feel the horse was ready. The people at the barn said, "Oh, it's just nerves, you'll be fine." Wouldn't you know, even before the parade started, the horse went up and down in the shafts, and never drove again. We tried. He just couldn't get over it. None of that sounds like fun.

If nothing else written convinces everyone that this is not a good idea, figure on the lawyers. When there is a wreck, they will look to see what the "experts" do as to whether or not there has been negligence. There is a reason that you can't purchase a garden cart for your horse to pull while only being led. It's not safe, as we have stated. Why on earth would you want to do something with your mini that isn't acceptable to the rest of the driving world?

Katiean, although your vehicle is very cute, it also is not stable, just for the reasons that you stated. It is not cut under (an actual carriage term), meaning that the wheels will hit the box if turned sharp. In the carriage world, this is considered a vehicle to be driven by people with experience. When the wheels hit the box, the rubber will catch the box and jackknife the vehicle, rolling it (almost been there when the horse decided to back up at an inopportune time). Usually, there is an piece of hardware known as a roller bolt that is attached to the box at just the point where the wheel will hit the box. This is to HELP the wheel from not catching the box. If the wheel has a steel tire and not rubber, you use a rub iron instead of a roller bolt. We have a Runabout to which we show our big horse. The carriage show we use this vehicle for has a separate division for not cut under vehicles, known as Country Vehicle. The reason those vehicles are separated from the cut under vehicles is because they are harder to drive sharply. You have to make bigger swings.

The best prevention for accidents is education. At one point, we were novice drivers who depended on others for sound advice. A good driver is one who puts safety first. While the rest of the horse world may critique what colors look good with which horse, the drivers are ADAMANT about safety. We have been showing carriage shows for 10 years, and open and breed shows and parades before that. I can count on one hand the number of shows we have been to that have NOT had a wreck. Most of these wrecks were with very experienced drivers where something went wrong: equipment failure, horse balked, etc. The worst wrecks seem to be with horses that you "would have never have guessed". The biggest wreck I have witnessed at a parade involved a driving team, not ridden horses. Driving is not something that you "play around with" or do because it is "cute". If you jump over to the mini driving forum, there are some good questions being asked there that will help you with your driving skills. http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showforum=18

Again, my point is not to make enemies. If I didn't care about you all, I would just scroll on by. Please be safe!



Once you have been driving for any length of time, it's not a matter of if, but when you will have a wreck. I, so far, have gotten by pretty well, only by having small wrecks that haven't resulted in injuries, but have busted the harness and cart!


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## Shari (Jan 6, 2010)

This is nice design!

http://www.oxbowtradeco.com/item.php/V-TYNUS#

And this one...while not cut under it is designed to safely do tight turns.

http://www.oxbowtradeco.com/item.php/V-6RF69#


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 6, 2010)

I think some of you are thinking "cute" and "fun" vehicles for very little money. You cannot save money by putting yourself and others at risk and it will be neither cute nor fun if you have an accident. Please listen to what Rhinestone is telling you.

Rubyview, if you lead a Mini with a child in a cart or wagon you are putting that child's life at risk far more than taking one for a drive in a cart with you at the reins. I am sure you would not want to do that.


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## sls (Jan 6, 2010)

In view of all input, I would have to consider safety first before fun. So I don't think the little red wagon is a go, but I know there are a lot of custom made "safe" wagons and I'll have to keep looking.


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## PonyKnit (Oct 16, 2011)

Would like to find a cart that we can use with a miniature. Want to use cart for hauling garden items, firewood etc. also are there carts with 4 wheels that a driver can sit in?


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 16, 2011)

Ditto what Rinestone said...





I have been getting lessons for over a year and still consider myself a newbie. My instructor is very safety focused and we go over everything every time we drive. Harness fit, hook up, fit of the cart, how my britching fits in tightness, and where it fits on the butt, and how I hook to my cart and the reasons why we check everything every time we hook up. It took me forever to decide on which cart I would purchase, but you sure can't put a price on balance and fit and safety so I saved and saved until I had enough to buy a well balanced cart... It was worth saving for and worth the wait,

A wreck can happen to anybody, but there are still things we can do to keep ourselves from setting up the "perfect storm" for a wreck to occur.

I don't want to hurt anybody's feelings I just wanted to add my voice of caution. I know amish that use that exact wooden wagon with those hand made shafts added to the wagon and use it when breaking their ponies, I have seen them do it.... They do not sit on a bucket, they sit in the wagon.

I have one of those wagons and I can assure you they can flip in a blink of an eye with an adult pulling a kid in one. I know... my husband dumped out our daughter when she was 2 years old in our driveway just hitting a little uneven patch and over it went.

You can try a test...... Put a feed bag on a bucket and have somebody give a jerk on the shafts (no horse attached) and see how fast it will flip out of the wagon... Make yourself a horse and trot around and take a turn with your wagon and see how steady it goes, You can have somebody video it for you to view after...

My horse got startled in my aerocrown last week and gave a nice little startled jump when a piece of crunchy corn got up under the wheel and made some noise. He recovered, we moved on, but had I not been in a balanced decent cart, I may have been looking up at the sky.

Please listen to the pros here, they really really know so much about driving and if you ask them, you will get so much help and tips, I have learned so much posting and asking questions here on this driving forum... I think I wore out Leia with my thousand questions on trying to find the right cart for me and my boy, and I have several times gotten the pros here to take a look at my harness and hook up and adjustments to see what they think of the fit and how we are hooked up etc.

PS, I am not allowed to put my cart to my horse without my helmet on... My instructor says that I will never find myself sitting in my cart ready to go and my helmet is in my training bag forgotten. just thought I would throw that in.

Best wishes



Adair


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## midnight star stables (Oct 17, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> As someone who has been driving minis and large horses for 20 years, it is my opinion that much of the advice being given here is TOTALLY against good driving practices, regardless whether or not you have a miniature horse. If these practices were done with large horses in public, experienced drivers would have a heyday! <img src="http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/public/style_emoticons/<#EMO_DIR#>/nono.gif" style="vertical-align:middle" emoid="
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> 
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> ...


I just had to add that I agree to this. I love driving but it is not for everyone. I started driving back in 2004 and since then improved my carts, harnesses, training and most of all skills. Driving can be very dangerous and I am thankful that I have yet to have any wrecks. All I'm saying is that driving takes a lot of time, training and education. Driving IS a LOT of fun when everything goes right!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 18, 2011)

This is an OOOOLD topic, people. Don't get too upset! A new member brought it up again to ask this question:



PonyKnit said:


> Would like to find a cart that we can use with a miniature. Want to use cart for hauling garden items, firewood etc. also are there carts with 4 wheels that a driver can sit in?


You could certainly buy your horse a little wooden wagon/carriage, many vendors sell them. For garden-style hauling I'd probably use one of those or a miniature forecart arrangement or some sort of skid or farming sledge. Check out full-sized draft resources then downsize!

Leia


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## PonyKnit (Oct 18, 2011)

Thanks, but can't find carts for hauling items etc.


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## RhineStone (Oct 18, 2011)

The challenge you are going to run into is that one miniature horse required to pull one person plus stuff may be taxing on the horse unless it is a fairly good size (bordering on oversize) mini. A pair might be better, but (not knowing how much driving experience you have) a pair of horses is not for the faint of experience. I do have a friend that uses her ponies (48+ inches) to bring in her firewood on a skid across the snow, but she has a lot of driving experience as well.

How big is your horse?

Myrna


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## Shari (Oct 18, 2011)

I have used Maggie to skid mini sized logs, Skid an over size sled to move a bale of hay or a couple bag of shavings... Draft stuff done in a mini's scale.

What I haven't done with her, is hitch her to a wagon. There are some nice working ones made out there, that are very safe design, spendy but safe. But they weigh too much for her to get any work done... let alone add a person and what ever you want to move around.

So unless you have a team or like Myrna said, and over size B mini, you will be limited to what you can do.

Lucky Hart Miniatures used to do real draft work with their mini's... not sure if that part of their web site is still up but they bought scaled down sized implements. You might want to call them and ask them who made their stuff?


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## Shari (Oct 18, 2011)

Scroll down to the bottom of this page to Horse Drawn Miniatures. Their cut under, Pony Market wagon would be a safer one.

http://www.oxbowwagonsandcoaches.com/horse-drawn-vehicles.html

Then they have the Forecarts.


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