# Runaway in cart



## squeaky (Apr 19, 2010)

Hi,

I have a 35" mare who has been broke to drive for two years. I still consider her green broke, as in the first two years, I didn't put many miles on her in the cart. This past winter, I have been working 3 - 4 times a week, and she has developed an awful habit. She will stand still to be harnessed, but as soon as I pick up the reins, or as soon as I ask her to walk on, she will take off running in the cart. It used to be that as soon as she felt movement on the reins, she would run off, but now, it is when I ask her to walk on. I lounge her before driving her, both without and with side reins. I don't get into the cart right away and am able to do smallish circles with her until she calms down enough to where I can walk with her. As soon as I can take her down the long side, she still jigs and wants to run off, but eventually calms down into a walk. I do ask for halt transitions when on the long side of the arena, but even then she will still dart forward and try running away. After a few laps, she walks calmly like nothing happened. On the few days she walks calmly off, I do give lots of praise with my voice.

So my question is: How do I address this running off issue? It is not safe that is for sure, and I am concerned that while at shows we might get into a predicament and someone will get hurt.

Thanks,

Amanda


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## MiLo Minis (Apr 19, 2010)

If she is able to calmly walk off on command in long lines and only does this on the cart then I would hitch her and ask her to "walk on". If she gives you a nice calm walk on praise her as you have been and go for a drive. If she surges forward and offers to take off then I would bring her back immediately, firmly and a bit harshly with your reins while giving a firm "WHOA". Immediately release the pressure and start counting slooooooowly to 10. If she jigs at all or even moves a foot repeat the pressure and "WHOA" and start your count over. Do this until she stands absolutely still for a long 10 count. Then ask for the "walk on". Repeat as necessary till she gives you a nice calm walk on. If it doesn't happen today then unhitch her and put her away. Repeat the next time you drive her and continue to ask and if you don't achieve it, unhitch - she doesn't get to drive until she walks calmly off.

If she is doing the same thing in long lines then go back till you can get it there and bring it into the cart.


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## Sue_C. (Apr 19, 2010)

For a horse that has been trained and working well in a cart for two years to suddenly develop a "habit" such as this...the first thing I think of is pain.

Is it possible that something either hurts her when she walks off...such as a pinch? Or...is it possible that she fell and hurt herself out in the pasture or in her stall? Have you recently changed anything, harness-bit-girth-cart???

As for worrying about this happening at a show. No way...EVER should this horse be allowed or expected to show in a ring full of unsuspecting horses and drivers, until this issue is totally and I mean absolutely solved and put to rest. Too much of this happens already; please don't add to it for the sake of a ribbon.


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## Mominis (Apr 19, 2010)

I totally agree with MiLo on going back to the long lines and seeing if the problem shows itself there. If not, then you have a lot of work to do in the cart.

I used to ride a newly retired park saddle mare that was like this. It took forever to get her to just relax and calm down to a flat walk. Especially on the long sides. We used lots of figure work to get her to tone it down. I also agree that, since this is a sudden thing, it may be a pain response. Have you checked her tack? How about her teeth? If all systems are go there, you may give some thought to working 20m circles spiraling down the long side, kind of like the icing on a hostess cupcake, so that she doesn't get a chance to go flat out down the long side. Let her only go straight on the short sides of the arena. If she's good with that, try some broken lines down the long side of the arena and see if she's being more controlled with those. This problem can be a tough nut to crack. Good luck!


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## krissy3 (Apr 19, 2010)

I also agree with going back to ground driving for a while , then hitching the cart to the horse and ground driving from behind the cart. I did this for a while before I "got in". I have had a horse spook , and run away with me that will happen from time to time in the beginning, I gave him the reins and sissored the reins back and fourth to get him under control. If you havnt done this yet , try walking behind the cart , and make sure the cart and harness fits him well. I agree that pain could also be the issue. Good luck


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## squeaky (Apr 19, 2010)

Hi,

Thanks for the responses. I have taken her back to long lining, and no issue there with running off when asked to walk. Her harness has been the same since when I first started driving her, and I have had it looked at by the vet and my massage therapist to see if there could be any pain. they couldn't find a reason for it, and her teeth were fine. My vet thought that maybe she had one time where something might have pinched her, and now she thinks it is going to happen all the time.






I have been doing what Lori (MiLo Minis) suggested when I work her lately, and I think that is why some days she will calmly walk off with no issue. She is very sensitive to changes in my voice, and so I make it a big deal when she walks off, or when she finally settles down and praises with my happy voice . I just wasn't sure if this was the right approach to handling the problem. I do also do lots of circles when we drive, as she does have some issues with accepting the left rein and giving into it.





Just as a clarification, I haven't been consistently driving her for the past two years. I would only be able to get a couple of drives in a month, as life wouldn't allow me to get out and work her more. Last summer I worked her a few times a week for about four months, before life went hectic and I had to stop. Starting back in December, I was able to straighten out my work schedule, and have been able to drive her every week (a few times) and put the miles on her that she never got in the past couple years.

Anyways, thanks for all the comments. It seems like I am handling this the right way, and that it will just take a few months to straighten out.





Amanda


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## hobbyhorse23 (Apr 19, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> For a horse that has been trained and working well in a cart for two years to suddenly develop a "habit" such as this...the first thing I think of is pain.


Agreed! And I agree with your vet, too. From what you've said in the past this is a sensitive horse and she could certainly have developed an anticipatory reaction if her harness pinched her or pulled hair out or something at one point. If that's the case it will take time to prove to her that nothing bad is going to happen. Have you checked to see if she's reacting to something with the cart rather than the harness? Does it make a noise that excites her or does the feel of the breeching first making snug contact "goose" her until she gets used to it on each drive? If she doesn't do this when worked from the ground I would continue that work with lots of praise for calm walk departures and slowly transfer that to work in the cart until she's able to do it both places.

Does she stand quietly through the whole hitching process, looking relaxed and happy? Will she stand with you sitting in the cart for five minutes? What I'm trying to figure out is does she only react on being asked to walk off or is she already anxious and waiting to blow and being asked to walk is the trigger.





I do think you are handling this right but more investigative work is in order to figure out what is causing her reaction.

Leia


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## squeaky (Apr 19, 2010)

Leia,

I also think it is something to do with the noise of the cart, but I have hitched her up to poles, tires, plastic bags, and she just walks calmly with those. She will stand there relaxed throughout the hitching and even rests a hoof while I am getting it all done. I don't use breeching (I know, I know, but all I have is my show harness to use), so it is not that goosing her. She will let me get in the cart, but I usually start off ground driving her around a few steps before I get in, just as a precaution. If she walks right off calmly, then I get in, and she will stand as long as I want before moving and will walk fine then. But if she tries to run off, then when I ask her to "whoa", she starts prancing and does a few rears (I usually have little contact on the reins when she starts rearing, and even before). It is usually a five minute ordeal, and then she is done with it and we can move on to other work.

For her harness set up, the saddle is shaped where it is not putting pressure on her spine, and two harness pads on either side (run down the whole length of the saddle from rein turrets to girth) to help pad that area, and give a channel over her spine where there is no pressure. I have had her teeth checked, and she gets massaged once a month, with which my massage therapist hasn't found any factor into what would cause her pain.

Thanks again everyone.

Amanda

ETA: My massage therapist used to drive both minis and big horses, so she understand the structure of the harness and such.


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## love_casper (Apr 19, 2010)

I'm not by any means a very experienced driver, but what your mare does sounds a lot like what my newest mini mare Fancy used to do, perhaps could be a similar thing....

Fancy is also a SUPER sensitive mare, the slightest little thing will bother her. She is very very sweet and quiet, but she deals with a lot of anxiety that people who don't know her would have to look for to see. When she gets bothered by things she mainly just freezes or tenses up (you can see a looot of tension coming out in her tail. It will have a tight look, or a kink in it when she's stressed.) She's like a duck sitting on a pond - on top everything looks totally calm and serene, but under water those duck's feet are moving a thousand miles an hour. Fancy doesn't, or at least didn't when I got her, particularly like people standing behind her, she just wouldn't move. Even if you were just brushing her tail, her face would seem calm and happy, but her tail was clamped down hard against her body, and she'd flinch whenever I brushed her butt.

She was "professionally trained" to drive by a trainer when her last owner had her. Now I've never really agreed with the way this trainer handles her horses... they all come off looking like hyped up show horses. She starts them right off driving from behind in closed bridles with checks. I'm not sure if it's because Fancy didn't accept the breeching, or this trainer simply doesn't use it, but Fancy was started without it. And then she was returned to a 13 yr old novice driver to drive around town, on the streets, up and down the neighborhood's hills, while she had no clue the cart was behind her, how wide the wheels were, and had to stop the cart with the saddle.

I only watched them driving together twice, they looked like they got along well enough...

Then I bought her. I tacked her up at liberty, she held 100% still. Brought her out to the driveway to hitch her up, didn't move a muscle. I thought wow what a well trained horse! Got in, she waited patiently for me to tell her to go forward. We walk calmly down the street for about 3 steps and them



whooo we're off like a rocket!!! No control whatsoever. We run all the way to the end of our street, I don't want her running off to the busiest street in town so we turn into an alley. I try to turn her back towards home, she spins way faster than I would have liked, bangs a shaft on the brick wall. We are heading back towards home prancing like a frightened Paso Fino, and I'd like to stop her but when she slows down the shafts ride up, and she takes off again. This goes on until suddenly we come to a screeching halt against our own accord when we hit a parked truck! And the wheel that she can't see gets caught on the inside of the truck's tire. I try to back out of it, but the singletree slams into her already sensitive and tense hind end, she lurches forward, getting us stuck again. I just bail, sidepass her around it from the ground, grab the shaft and shove it back through the tug and walk her home.

I come to the conclusion that I'm never (and I mean NEVER) driving this horse or any other for that matter without breeching unless we're in deep dirt where the cart can stop easier. And I wasn't going to drive Fancy until I could start her over, get her confident in harness, and go with an open bridle.

I honestly have no clue how her 13 yr old owner survived driving this mare so long. I assume it's only due to her learning from experience to lunge her each time before she wanted to drive her.

So... I'm sure you haven't had an experience that bad with her, but have you ever driven her anywhere other than a deeply footed arena? Where a cart can roll easily such as my experience on cement, lack of breeching could easily scare a sensitive horse. My singletree actually rammed into her butt, if that's ever happened with yours it could explain the nervousness. Fancy could be pretty calm some days, either after lounging or a long drive, so maybe that could explain why she calms down after some work?

Just a suggestion, as it sounded like my experience, especially since you said you don't have breeching. As a side note, afer a winter of working on it Fancy is finally confident enough to be hitched again now, just finally solved our problem this month.


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## Sue_C. (Apr 19, 2010)

The problem with driving without breeching, besides the fact you have no brakes...nine times out of ten, the horse is pulling with the girth, not the traces. The wrap straps are almost always wrapped so tight the horse gets pinched between the girth strap and the wrap strap. Some horses obviously handle it, many don't.

I suggest you borrow a breeching, start using it when ground driving, with the straps tautly buckled up to the tugs so she gets used to the pressure on her butt. Once she is comfy with that new piece of equipment, go ahead and hitch her, but do not tighten the wrap straps as tight as you usually do, just take up the slack so to speak...and have the breeching properly atatched. She might be a bit goosey at first, even with this done...because if that pinching has been the problem all along, she has been taught to expect it.

I am curious as to how this would turn out.


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## Mominis (Apr 20, 2010)

Sounds like you hang some ineresting stuff off of her to desensitize her. Have you tried shaker bottles? They make a similar sound to the cart if you long line her with them hanging on her sircingle.


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## MiLo Minis (Apr 20, 2010)

I agree that if you are going to be driving this horse on any kind of hills or slopes you need to get yourself a set of breeching but if all you intend to use her for is breed ring driving then you need to work this out without breeching. If it is the cart surging up on her then you need to work at very gradual starts and stops until she learns to deal with the weight of the cart coming up on her. I believe what is happening is that your mare loves to drive and gets overexcited about going out. If you work on achieving a good solid whoa for mounting and dismounting and leaving at a walk using the method I suggested earlier, when you get out to the practice ring if you can continue at a good strong walk in both directions with a loose figure 8 for the rein change do so but if you can't and she wants to jig and take off then allow her to proceed at a good strong but controlled trot in large ovals taking up the entire ring and again loose figure 8's for rein changes until she is relaxed and willing to slow. Don't ask her to halt or slow to a walk until she seems willing to do so. If you try to bring her back abruptly because you feel she is trying to take off that will cause the cart to ride up on her strongly and can frighten her which will send her off in a herky jerky manner. If you are nervous about allowing her to move out then you need to either take big breaths and roll your shoulders back and RELAX or find someone to help you with her until she is more settled. With time she will learn to deal with the cart and you can ask for more abrupt starts and stops but for the time being don't ask her to come from a trot to a halt or halt to trot - always use walk as an in between transition. I have driven many horses like this and they all settle down eventually and become a joy to drive as they are always forward and willing.


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## squeaky (Apr 20, 2010)

Hi All,

Love casper - It's a little crazy to read your story, as my mare's name is Fancy also. Must be something with the name. But, yes, I have driven her outside the arena, on flat ground where the cart pulls easily. She had no problems at all, and when the cart did ride up on her a little, she did not freak out. My Fancy is high strung, and I think has some anxiety, but you can tell with her, as she expresses her feelings very clearly. I don't ever remember the single tree slamming into her butt (I have straps on the singletree that don't allow it to move very far for that reason).

Sue C - I can say that my wrap straps are not tight by any means, for as soon as I tightened them the first few times, she got very defensive, and even before I asked her to move, I loosened them as I could tell it was not going to be a good situation. I do understand that without the breeching, she does have to stop the cart with her girth, but we have done much work with pulling so many things (like tires and such) that I do believe she is pulling with the traces.

Mominis - Since Fancy is hyper sensitive, I wanted to make sure I exposed her to everything as I didn't want to get in the cart and have her freak out. I took my time, ground driving her for to years, while going over everything, out on trail drives, through water, dragging things, until I felt she was ok with everything, and that it was safe for me to get in the cart. As for the plastic bottles, no I have not done those yet (I keep forgetting to save bottles to hang off her) but would like to as I think it would be very helpful for her.

Thanks again everyone for all the suggestions. I won't be able to work her till Thursday, and I'll let you know how it goes.

Amanda

ETA: Lori - I do want to try your method. So far I have not noticed the cart riding up on her, and when she takes off running, I only ask her to slow down into a slower trot, and then to a walk. I never do the fast trot to halt, and I don't think it accomplishes anything when they are so strung out. But thanks again for your advice. Its been tremendously helpful.


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## Sue_C. (Apr 20, 2010)

> Sue C - I can say that my wrap straps are not tight by any means, for as soon as I tightened them the first few times, she got very defensive, and even before I asked her to move, I loosened them as I could tell it was not going to be a good situation. I do understand that without the breeching, she does have to stop the cart with her girth, but we have done much work with pulling so many things (like tires and such) that I do believe she is pulling with the traces.


Sounds like she has been pinched, if she does indeed get defensive when wrapped? If they are not tight...what stops the cart if you come to a halt? Your shafts would almost have to run up in the tugs? Wish I could see this. Hard to fix a problem when you cannot see or explain what you mean. LOL!

As for pulling with the traces when dragging, that is a whole different thing, as you don't have the shafts, wheels or weight coming up from behind when you stop.

If you have any MHW or Journals, you can easily (unfortunately) see what I mean. Look at the pictures of a horse going like a bat outta heck, MANY of them with the traces hanging slack. Those horses are doing what I was thinking yours was doing...pulling and stopping with the back saddle/girth.


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## squeaky (Apr 22, 2010)

Hi Sue,

I have seen the photos in the magazines where the traces have been hanging slack as they are pulling, and I have been watching for this while working her. This is one thing I do not like to see is a horse pulling with the saddle/girth. I have not seen it at all (not to mean it does not happen), expect on the downward transitions (which is where the breeching would help).

As for the wrap straps, the very first time I tried wrapping them around the poles (not very tight) she got defensive. I think I had to use a soft measuring tape around her belly for a couple of weeks in order to get her to calm down so I could put on the girth. Fancy is just a sensitive mare, and any new pressure, she gets defensive about.



I am not saying the wrap straps are loose on the cart, as I would have no brakes, like you say. But, they are snug, and do the job of keeping the shafts where they need to be, and to help stop the cart. I probably have overtightened them once in the past, but the way I have her now is how I have been hitching her since last summer, before she started this issue of running away.

I do understand it is hard to explain something with out photos, and I am going to try and get some this weekend of her (and maybe a video) so you can see what is happening.

Thanks again for you input. It is always nice to have people to bounce ideas off of different people and to get replies so fast.

Amanda


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## squeaky (May 12, 2010)

Hi All,

I just wanted to put an update on my mare who was running away in the cart. After chatting with Lori (MiloMinis) she told me to just let her go around the arena at a strong trot, and then ask her to slow down after a few laps. This seemed to be the best answer, as Fancy has been doing exceptionally well lately. The last two or three days, she has been standing and waiting for my command before walking off. I don't know if this was because it has been warm out lately, and she just doesn't want to work up a sweat, or if she is actually getting better. I am thinking she is getting better, and that this issue is slowly going away.

Just wanted to give an update on how things were going. Thanks for everyone's help.

Amanda


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 12, 2010)

That's great Amanda! Thanks for the update.

Leia


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