# Next help with adjusting to balance out weight of cart on small mini



## rjrubicon (Oct 25, 2016)

Help! I am an experience driver of horses in carts, wagons and carraiges. I recently acquired a small A sized mini. She came with harness and easy entry mini 2 wheel cart. I am stuck on a problem that I cannot seem to solve. First off, very little is level in my part of Virginia---finding a stretch of level road is hard, and even in the best area, a slight incline or upcline occurs. My problem is, I can only raise the tug loops for my harness up to the saddle only so far, and yet my mini bears most of the weight of the cart and shafts on her back and also somewhat on her neck strap (for the breast collar) the ONLY time she pulls with mostly her breast collar is when we are going up an incline. Otherwise, both level road and also when slightly downhill, ALL the weight is carried on her saddle and neck strap. I have tried all types of adjustments and I have not found an answer. It bothers me to see us on LEVEL road with the traces loose and flopping about and the only pulling is from the tug straps bearing down weight on her tiny back. Now, am hoping for harness advice as to what else I can do, but since I cannot get the little horse any taller, I truly am flummoxed as to how to take the cart/driver weight off my darling's back at this stage.

Saying all that, I then went online to find a small, light 3 or 4 wheel tiny cart/carraige and I only found ONE, a 3 wheel DOG cart, wherein the 3rd wheel (in front) says it will take the wt of the cart and driver on the wheel. ANyone buy/try this rig? (i will have a pic) And, when I look at 4 wheel things for my mini, all I find are commericial carraiges (too big and heavy for me to toss up in the back of my step-up trailer) OR they are designed to be pulled by a TEAM. I just have the one tiny mini and I am not too upset to want to drive her anymore until I can solve this problem Please help me with harness advice, or if you know of a place on east coast (I am in Virginia) that can attach a wheel or two to my cart to bear the weight, or any advice you have. I am attaching two pics, but know that in these pics the tug straps are not on their highest setting, I was trying differing adjustments and I already have tried the highest setting and yet I still have the SAME issue, unless the horse is pulling uphill, the cart is pulled not by the breast strap or traces, but only by the tug loops and almost all the weight is borne by the saddle and neck. This is unacceptable to me, as I love my mini.

Pic #1 taken just after coming down a slight decline, breeching fully engaged. Yes, I know the tug loops can be set higher, b ut this pic shows how the shafts push forward thru loops to the max, and also shows weight on the saddle and neck strap
Pic #2 taken just after coming up an incline, wherein the traces are engaged to pull, and as you see (yes I know the tugs can be set higher, I was trying this and other heights out all month) the tugs straps are holding the weight as much as the breast strap. Note the saddle being tilted back and necks strap tension.

Pic #3 a pic of the dog cart I found from sun rise pony. Anyone have this? or something like it? 3 or 4 wheels but SMALL and light so can pick it up somewhat?

Thank you so much,

--RJ


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## Cayuse (Oct 25, 2016)

Hello and Welcome! Others with more experience than I have will probably be along with good advice but my first thought was about the traces. Are they snug enough so they are engaging consistently when your mini is pulling?

I like your mini, she looks very suitable for her job.

The dog cart looks interesting, I was wondering how one would be for my smallest mini, but I had concerns from

looking at pictures that the third wheel would be close enough to interfere with the hind feet, how does it look in person?


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 25, 2016)

I think you need to lower the tugs. The shafts are supposed to be horizontal on the horse's body when on level ground.

If the traces are too long, you can wrap them around the shaft. Balance your body directly over the axle to minimize weight on the horse.

Be the horse between the shafts and have someone get into and out of the cart to check where the best balance is.

Pretty girl and she looks just right for the job. Looks as though you have some lovely area to drive, too!


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## Peggy Porter (Oct 25, 2016)

I agree with Marsha, I would lower the tugs at least one hole. See how the cart seat tilts back in the first photo. The shafts and the seat should be level. I also agree that there seems to be a lot of weight on the neck strap. Try looping a leather thong or shoelace around the neck strap and tie it back to the water hook on the saddle. This will relieve a bit of the neck pressure and also help keep your saddle from tilting/slipping back. My harnesses came with a piece for this. It's hard to tell because she's dark and the harness and cart are dark, but is there a singletree on the cart that the traces hook to? The singletree makes her more comfortable leaning into the breast collar because it swivels as her shoulders move, instead of rubbing. You definitely want to get her comfortable. She's really cute and stout enough for the job.


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## Peggy Porter (Oct 25, 2016)

I'm not sure why it's sideways, but the first photo shows the connector strap at the top. The second photo shows it in action.


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## rjrubicon (Oct 26, 2016)

Cayuse said:


> Hello and Welcome! Others with more experience than I have will probably be along with good advice but my first thought was about the traces. Are they snug enough so they are engaging consistently when your mini is pulling?
> 
> I like your mini, she looks very suitable for her job.
> 
> ...


I have not ordered this 3 wheel dog cart, they say they can adjust some dimensions, like shafts, to fit specific sized minis, etc. the 3rd wheel should not interfer if your harness is set up right for the correct L of shafts for your mini.


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## rjrubicon (Oct 26, 2016)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I think you need to lower the tugs. The shafts are supposed to be horizontal on the horse's body when on level ground.
> 
> If the traces are too long, you can wrap them around the shaft. Balance your body directly over the axle to minimize weight on the horse.
> 
> ...


sadly, no, tried lowering the tugs and it was so much worse that BB really could not even pull. The pics shown is the lowest I can let the shafts sit with her still able to pull without overbearing weight on her back. lowering the tug loops makes MORE weight as the cart tips farther forward. I have now (not a pic posted) set the tug loops as high as possible and that works the best, but I am still considering putting another wheel or two to bear the forward wt of the cart or buy one already made, 4 or 3 wheel.

As for the area, i have 20 acres along side a river, but sadly that is the ONLY flat land around. I wish she was about 4 or 5 inches taller, or I had a smaller cart even, I have tweaked the balance so many times. I did not know fitting a harness/cart to a mini would be so much more difficult than when I harness my fjord, but indeed, I have found out that it is much more critical to get the right balance. Thank you Marsha, but like I said, when I tried lowering (4 diff lower settings) it got worse. Gee, I wish I was closer to you, I know that having friends who are mini savvy would help me . TYSM


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## rjrubicon (Oct 26, 2016)

Peggy P said:


> I agree with Marsha, I would lower the tugs at least one hole. See how the cart seat tilts back in the first photo. The shafts and the seat should be level. I also agree that there seems to be a lot of weight on the neck strap. Try looping a leather thong or shoelace around the neck strap and tie it back to the water hook on the saddle. This will relieve a bit of the neck pressure and also help keep your saddle from tilting/slipping back. My harnesses came with a piece for this. It's hard to tell because she's dark and the harness and cart are dark, but is there a singletree on the cart that the traces hook to? The singletree makes her more comfortable leaning into the breast collar because it swivels as her shoulders move, instead of rubbing. You definitely want to get her comfortable. She's really cute and stout enough for the job.


Dear Peggy, yes, I had it level to begin with, but with the cart level she started struggling more and the traces would never get tight unless at a 5% or better grade uphill. Raising the tug loops up higher in the saddle, setting the cart back, gave her some relief and allows her to pull with her breast collar on the traces, but still not ideal--as this only works on level road. Like you and Marsha, I thought lowering the tug loops would make it work, and weirdly enough, it did not. I think I am going to go to Tractor supply and find some bolt on swivel wheels that fit (they have sizes 4" up to 12", btw) and attach two under the cart at front by the curve and hope that relieves pressure of cart shaft off her back. TYSM for your advice, and sadly tried it several times without it working for her. As I said to Marsha, I had no idea that driving minis would involve more fine-touch tuning to harness---I have driven horses and fjords for years and my only issue with them was custom harness ordering (esp for Fjords, the tanks that they are!) and getting shafts wide enough for fjords (good thing I can weld, lol)

Again, thank you SO much for your advice. i wish it would work for by little girl, but it did not. darn.


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## rjrubicon (Oct 26, 2016)

Thank all of your for your great advice. Sadly, I tried the lowering of the tugs (I actually tried all the setting adjustable) and today I think I hit on the right fit to relieve pressure off my little girls back. Like I said, unless going uphill, before the weight of the cart/shafts put all the wt on her saddle and neck strap, leaving the traces loose. I am experience with harness for fjords but this is my first harnessing of a mini and mini cart, and boy, has it been a lot more complex! Today, brought the tug loop up as high as the harness would allow, setting the shaft line NOT level, but having cart tilt back some, and now that does allow her to pull the cart with the traces from the breastcollar. It is not perfect, and does not look as pretty, but it did take a LOT of the wt off her back and neck. I am adding a pic taken today, and yeah, it is not ideal, but I think I am going to have to resort to adding some weight bearing swivel small wheels under the curve-front of cart if I want this cart to have level shafts and not cause my mini struggle or pain. Or will have to buy the 3wheel cart I mentioned. I would LOVE a tiny 4 wheel one-seater cart, but I have yet to find one that is not cost prohibitive to my budget or is one that is too large/heavy and would require a team of minis. We have lots of hilly countryside here in southwestern Virginia and the only level land is my pasture and driveway, lol.

Anyone know of a cheap 4wheel cart, not a big parade or commercial wagon/carraige that is not too heavy for a small A type mini? She is only 145lbs.

Oh, thought you all would enjoy a laugh at the funnier parts of this rigging in this pic: notice the fancy paper towel roll that is used to cushion her neck strap---fancy, eh? and also, I have small hold-back straps used to hook into the tube openings at the tips of the shafts to keep the shafts from slipping forward when we go downhill--this has been a big problem, even with the breeching adjusted perfect. (I have breeching padding, but took it off to monitor the fit on this harness as I continue to tweak it more and more. I am determined to get a good fit that is comfortable for my mini--even if the looks are less than what I would prefer.

I envy those videos of minis in harness in the show ring on perfect level ground...they look so beautiful.

Anyway, this is still a work in progress, and I most certainly THANK YOU all who took the time to give me advice, as I appreciate it very very much. Any leads on SMALL carriage, and light, 3 or 4 wheels is MOST appreciated. the bigger 4 wheel carriages I cannot lift up into the back of my step-up trailer, darn it....


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## rjrubicon (Oct 26, 2016)

Peggy P said:


> image.jpg
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like that attachment you have, very nice, I will try and rig up one like that if I cannot find it sold separate. Right now you will get a laugh outta me using a half-used roll of bounty paper towels to keep the neck strap from hurting her, see my last post just above this one.





And no, this old cart does NOT have a singletree, but I have one on order I am going to add to it soon---i know that will help alot freeing her shoulders, but like I said, when the weight is mostly on her saddle, she does not even pull the cart at all with breast collar or traces, as all the weight is in the tug loops. ugh. Raising up the loops is the only thing that has helped at all, but I am still not happy....sigh. Really would love a small 4 wheel one person cart/carriage that is SMALL and light for me to handle. Ideas anyone?


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## rjrubicon (Oct 26, 2016)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I think you need to lower the tugs. The shafts are supposed to be horizontal on the horse's body when on level ground.
> 
> If the traces are too long, you can wrap them around the shaft. Balance your body directly over the axle to minimize weight on the horse.
> 
> ...


Hey Marsha, get this...I graduated from Altus High in OK back in '75, Boy did the tornados really give us a spin every year there....wow. and I remember buying water from these big tanks around our tiny town, and I had my first horses and some FFA show stock (steer, lambs) there. Do you know where Altus is? I loved OK. Where are you at in that corner of the state (right now my fam all relocated to DFW, and I ended up on the east coast! LOL)


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 26, 2016)

rjrubicon said:


> Hey Marsha, get this...I graduated from Altus High in OK back in '75, Boy did the tornados really give us a spin every year there....wow. and I remember buying water from these big tanks around our tiny town, and I had my first horses and some FFA show stock (steer, lambs) there. Do you know where Altus is? I loved OK. Where are you at in that corner of the state (right now my fam all relocated to DFW, and I ended up on the east coast! LOL)


I am 25 miles from Altus in Hobart. We did not play the Bulldogs as we are a smaller school. I was actually living in Altus in 1975 as my husband was stationed there. Like you, I've been all over the place. We are back in SW OK by choice.

As to the cart with an extra wheel/wheels--someone who knows those vehicles can say better, but I think one needs a brake on a vehicle of more than two wheels. Instead of looking into the dog cart, perhaps you should research a different kind of EZ cart. Do you know what brand yours is?

It is very strange that you cannot get that setup balanced correctly. I ordered the little leather piece for the neck strap to hook onto the saddle from Ozark.


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## rjrubicon (Oct 26, 2016)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I am 25 miles from Altus in Hobart. We did not play the Bulldogs as we are a smaller school. I was actually living in Altus in 1975 as my husband was stationed there. Like you, I've been all over the place. We are back in SW OK by choice.
> 
> As to the cart with an extra wheel/wheels--someone who knows those vehicles can say better, but I think one needs a brake on a vehicle of more than two wheels. Instead of looking into the dog cart, perhaps you should research a different kind of EZ cart. Do you know what brand yours is?
> 
> It is very strange that you cannot get that setup balanced correctly. I ordered the little leather piece for the neck strap to hook onto the saddle from Ozark.


Cool about being in Hobart! I have a friend living right near there still. My dad was base commander when we were stationed there. Funny story, I was the first girl to enroll in FFA there and the boys were wicked mean to me, but I did not care. I learned to weld and show lambs and my steer and had a great time even though they were not female-friendly. My teacher was, but my fellow students were NOT, lol. I loved it there and remember riding my best mare to the A&W drive in on hot days for root beers, and getting my dad mad at me for riding thru the base. Heck, I had my dependent ID on me, lol. Oh well!

I have only had this driving mini for less than 2 months. I got a msg on FB from some very exp drivers that say moving to a 3 or 4 wheel cart will definately free the weight off my mini since I do not have much level ground to depend on, and that although level looks great in the ring, a slight tilt back for cart will distribute weight better on the axles and so to do that until I 1)get some small wheels attached up fore to bear some weight or buy another cart. And yes, I am ordering the neck strap connector like what you have to use in the meantime. Great to hear from you! wish we were closer, I am the only one who drives in my little town now and it would be fun to have some company. Thank you so much for your good advice. I am so excited about my new hobby. My fjord is perfect, but frankly as I get older, harnessing him up can be very tiring with my bad ankle these days..sigh, growing up isn't for sissies! LOL

Attaching pic of my Viggo with wagonette, it is heavy (500lbs!) 
and hard to get him all hooked up, AND a big fuss to load up cart or wagon to meet with friends to drive (usually a 100 mile drive to meeting spots, really...sigh) so you can see why my new adventures in mini horse driving is so exciting for me--I can load up and go anywhere in just a short time!

LOVE LOVE LOVE my new hobby and adore looking at everyone's cute mini horses on this forum. Such great advice and seems like a wonderful group of people. Wish I was closer to more of you all!! --RJ



PS I am near Roanoke, Virginia.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 27, 2016)

Gorgeous!!

Hope you get your little one figured out. You might look in the topic at the top of the driving forum and find some other folks near you. I'm sure there are more in your area than there are in mine.


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## happy appy (Oct 28, 2016)

HI first I would like to say nice mini!

Now on to the problem. Your tie down strap is not used correctly. It is clipped on to the breast plate neck strap. It should be minus the hardware and wrapped around the shaft on either side of the tug loop then secured to the buckle on the over girth under the belly. Your breechin is also too loose to allow the cart to come that far forward. The cart can only balance when with the driver sitting in the cart there is little to no weight in the shafts where they go through the tug loops. When you have the loops too high it causes the weight to be lifting on the horses belly. That will cause a number of medical issues for your horse.


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## rjrubicon (Oct 28, 2016)

happy appy said:


> HI first I would like to say nice mini!
> 
> Now on to the problem. Your tie down strap is not used correctly. It is clipped on to the breast plate neck strap. It should be minus the hardware and wrapped around the shaft on either side of the tug loop then secured to the buckle on the over girth under the belly. Your breechin is also too loose to allow the cart to come that far forward. The cart can only balance when with the driver sitting in the cart there is little to no weight in the shafts where they go through the tug loops. When you have the loops too high it causes the weight to be lifting on the horses belly. That will cause a number of medical issues for your horse.


Thank you Tina, the tie down thingie was just half-butt rigged to keep the tips of the shafts from pushing forward when going down hill, and the breeching was raised, AND I did lower the tug loops lower than the last pic I posted. I have another harness on the way and hope I get it on right, there are definite differences between fitting a mini and a bigger horse. Thank you Tina for all your good advice. I am sure your training center is the go-to place for mini CDE stuff up your way. YOu are so helpful and nice. Thank you so very much for all you do to promote mini driving success. I have been reading lots of posts in the forum to learn more and more every day. People like you and everyone else giving wonderful advice to me make the world a great place <3 Thank you and everyone else who contributes to the forums here





Attaching pic of my teeny mini, Chu (Little Poco) he is just a pet, lol, Last year he 'pulled' a child wagon filled with Teddy Bears in a parade, but I can't locate a pic of it, LOL


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## rjrubicon (Oct 28, 2016)

Tina E and anyone else that noticed I had two weird straps sorta clipped on the shaft ends. They were some small straps I had laying about in a harness repair kit I have of bits and peices and I am just awaiting shipment of my shaft thimbles.



(which by the way, if you need shaft thimbles for metal shafts, ozark mtn has them cheaper than any other site I have come across!!!)

Just letting ya'll know that the pics I have of my black mini in harness is kinda pics that are not complete kosher set up and I have a new harness and other things on the way





AND thank EVERYONE for all your good advice and help and now that I have the cart balanced, just waiting on some orders to finish up the harness and other things for a sharp, correct look.

HUGS to all of you for taking the time to give me advice


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## happy appy (Oct 29, 2016)

You breechin is supposed to stop the cart from rolling forward going down hill. That tells me that the breechin isn't tight enough on the horse and cart. Thimbles only take the place of breechin, not used with it. With the open tug that you have you need something to hold the tugs down and in place when you are in the cart. Take the clips off the 2 straps and use them to secure down to the girth.


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## rjrubicon (Oct 29, 2016)

happy appy said:


> You breechin is supposed to stop the cart from rolling forward going down hill. That tells me that the breechin isn't tight enough on the horse and cart. Thimbles only take the place of breechin, not used with it. With the open tug that you have you need something to hold the tugs down and in place when you are in the cart. Take the clips off the 2 straps and use them to secure down to the girth.


I think you missed one of my postings, the breeching is not set as high as in the pics posted. The thimbles are used because the hill is steep and I needed tips on the shaft ends anyway. I got a set from a pal who had a show harness without breeching, which I know about, but I see my mini bows up and carries too much weight on butt to wherein if she did lots of downhold with breeching solo as brakes I would worry about soring, so this helps catch when breeching is dug in tight, alleviating the load, and covering the sharped edges of open shaft tubes, which with her short neck, threatened to poke her downhill at a turn, especially now shafts are more level to horizontal, and the shafts would slide easy forward and such. Not defending as much as explaining that I have it rigged different now, but if you saw this now going down hill you would see the reasoning. I will just have to post a pic of how I have it set up now, but with getting in the last hay before frost, I have not had time to fool with playing with the mini or any of the horses. Oh, and I do have loops to keep tugs down when driving, I just did not put them on for the pick, they were just hanging, the pic was just to show the shafts at the time, and those two acting as thimbles are actually tiny holdbacks that came with her harness I used to have. Have a different biothane harness now anyway. I also got some Pms asking for pics of the assist castor wheels, I will have to do that as well. I am so far behind in farm chores. I can't wait to get everything harnessed up and get your advice on what I have to adjust. Your help and advice is wonderful. I am so grateful for ppl like you that care about those of us new to mini driving. Lots to learn, and no one right in my town who drive minis, we are all here just used to big horse stuff and with my girls small size, every little adjustment makes BIG changes. I tell my horse driving buddies in my club now, that driving minis is not exactly the same. Like I read in some other groups, getting them safe and unsored when using is very critical. Your statement about pressure on the belly was something I had not thought of before---I was only worried about the saddle pressing down on her back. You are absolutely correct in that, that small sternum of the tiny mini can easily get injured. All I want is for my girl to never get sore or be in pain. Except for 125 yards of driveway and a my riverside pasture, nothing level here in the Blue Ridge mountains, darn it, hence the prevalance of trail horses and my driving club has to travel to find places to go for even our big horses to drive level land...

Thank you Tina, your advice is always excellent and thoughtful





PS adding pic of my team set up on my waggonette (painted now black !) with my horse and a friends horse pulling it on a chilly day. I am hoping in future to get another mini to match mine and get a nice team harness for them both. That is the direction I want to go in. Driving single with tiny horses in this area is not ideal, and even now, half the time I have to get out an walk going up or down steep hills so as not to have my mini work her little heart out. Not much fun to drive if you are mostly walking, lol.


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## rjrubicon (Oct 30, 2016)

Oh, a friend of mine who is visiting today that drives horses came over to look at my new set up (not shown) and then noticed I did not explain how my harness show is different that some mini harnesses. The one in this post does not have an overgirth. It has a wrap strap that is too short to secure the front of the shafts (it is left in a loop, but I know how a wrap strap is supposed to be fitted, this was a gift harness to get started with, and did not have everything intact. Oh well, so that is why I had to use the thimbles. Note that on driving drafts and fords, we just use an overgirth to stop bounce at the trot, and do not have a problem (or at least I never had a problem) with shafts pushing forward thru the tug loops, and we just use the overgirth to eliminate upward bounce. ~~With my new mini harness, it also does have an overgirth, but I may replace it with a longer overgirth strap and use it as a wrap strap, esp since my mini is little and we have hilly roads. I have also parts on the way to help balance my cart, as I do know how to check balance of a small cart and for some reason, even though it looks nice, when the shafts are level or 10% above level it is NOT balanced and too much weight it on my mini. I got to see a newer mini cart at a dealer the other day, and when you hold it at a nice slight-above horizontal it was balanced a LOT better (I make a friend sit in the cart and hold the shafts myself to check this balance issue) so I will eventually get a newer cart or move to vse once I find a team mate for mine.

I got a new rigging for the breast collar, the strap now will meet the waterman loop without an extension so no more pressure on the neck. Cant wait for all my parts and stuff to get here. Everyone has been so helpful. I never realized all I would learn in just one short week! That is the coolest part about the horse world---you never stop learning. THANK you everyone who assisted me in this balancing/harness for my mini issue. <3


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## Minimor (Oct 30, 2016)

Does your cart seat move? Mine will move forward or backward so that I can set it different places for different sized horses, and that helps balance the cart. What size wheels do you have on it? Changing to smaller wheels could balance it better for your little horse.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 30, 2016)

I do not believe thimbles are a good idea to use as the sole brake on a cart. I have a sulky harness that came with thimbles. This method appears to use the fore of the horses for braking. Not a good idea on inclines. It is fine for level ground and help slowing momentum, but I do not believe it is suitable for regular harness work. With breeching, the horse uses his hindquarters, which are stronger and better able to support the weight. When I watch my horse back up, even on a level surface, using the thimbles, it is obviously not as easy for him or as good for his body as when he backs with breeching. The saddle pushes forward on him backing up with the thimbles. With breeching, the saddle stays centered on his body.

I know there are folks that drive without breeching, but for my terrain breeching is necessary.


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