# Really, how do you say to someone



## Frankie (Oct 18, 2009)

A lot of talk about the economy and so many people breeding more pet quality miniatures, and in large numbers.

I have noticed on several occasions that people who reply to the above type threads, do make comments on how part of the solution is for those with pet quality, unregistered should stop breeding.

Problem is, in some cases, their "show quality" breeding is the exact same pet quality they are speaking of.

People will not look at their stock objectively, or can't. Until we can find a nice way to let people know they need not be so barn blind, or they need to educate themself more, it will keep happening. I am guessing not an easy thing, as I am also guessing my title of this thread did not sit well with a few.

And who is the "right" person to say, that is not a quality horse,,,and what is it that person has that makes them "right"? You can only use show horses and how they have placed to some degree as all horses are not shown.

We all need to take a look in our lot, an honest look. I thought I had the best horses in the state, I took a look in my lot, and though I still love them the same and they are still here, I have not bred in 4 years. Why? Because I was honest enough with myself to say, they aren't the quality I am after. I adjusted as I was learning.

I am in no way saying any one here is breeding crap, but you know what I'm talking about.

To help the industry we must first start at home, but are we?


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## bevann (Oct 18, 2009)

IMO it is difficul to tell someone else what to breed for.Sometimes a breeding looks good on paper and when the foal arrives you wonder what happened to your plan.It's like you forgot to tell the mare and stallion what you were expecting to get.I have bred some horses that I thought were nice and they did some winning.I have also bred some that weren't as good for halter, but they have made nice performance horses and some excellent horses for kids and some that were awesome therapy horses.I have also seen some very beautiful show horses that seemed to have nothing between the ears whether by breeding or life circumstances.Each person seems to have their own definition of a good horse.I too am no longer breeding, but only because the market is flooded and the economy makes it tough to sell mid range priced horses(boy do I miss the foals)


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## Sue_C. (Oct 18, 2009)

I agree.

Also, so many who state a horse is or is not "show quality" are strictly speaking of a TYPE, not actual conformation. I find that too many people are concentating on a "perfect head and neck", and lots of them I see pictures of are beautiful...in the front...but although "correct" (as in not crooked) behind...there is very little behind to speak of.

I do not think a ribbon should tell which horse is best...I think a good hard, long, and honest look is what tells.


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## Minimor (Oct 18, 2009)

The thing is, what exactly is "crap" and who is to decide.

Breeder A may say that any horse that doesn't have a topline that is as flat as a table top is crap. So, he looks at Breeder B's horses & labels them all crap because they don't have that perfect (in his opinion) top line. Breeder B would say no, I don't want my horses to have that kind of a top line, I breed for driving horses and I want them to have more roundness to their croup so that they can round themselves and use their hindquarters better, for more power.

Breeder C may have good moving horses with decent conformation. They may not have the longest, finest necks but they're not drop dead ugly and they don't have any physical issues or unsoundnesses. Breeder D may have gorgeous necks and win lots in the show ring but his senior stallion has a stifle issue and passes his faulty stifle conformation on to his foals. Breeder E brags about his horses constantly and always holds them up as the perfect example of the best whatever-part-it-may-be and apparently never sees that the wonderful hip he brags about is accompanied by hind legs that are set on all wrong. Breeder F paid a fabulous amount of money for each & every one of her horses and so they cannot possibly be pet quality--she doesn't really know about conformation but the sellers all assured her that she was buying top quality & she believes it.

I know people who have horses that for me have absolutely nothing going for them. They aren't awful horses, they just don't have anything I like. They've got those domed heads or are too short, too heavy, too plain, too whatever. The next guy will come along and look at my horses and say they don't have nice heads, because I don't have any of those dished faces....in other words I don't have any of the domed heads that I dislike, but which some others call dished faces & think they're gorgeous! (And I know, there are dished faces and then there are dished faces!!






What I'd call crap would be a horse with a big hammer head, short ewe neck, bowed legs in front, spavined hocks, roach back, weak stifles...you get the idea.

As far as telling someone what they should or shouldn't breed, unless they ask for your advice why would you bother. Let he with the absolutely perfect horse....by everyone's standards....cast the first stone at everyone else.


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## Frankie (Oct 18, 2009)

The point was not to cast any stones.

Only to look in our own barn lot, to help the industry as a whole.

How many farms are out there? Most that I know of are ran by pretty intelligent people.

I'm just saying that if we want the selling part of the industry to improve, we need to do it one farm at a time, and that does need to include our own.

The only real person or horse this was directed towards, was our self and our horses.


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## Little Wolf Ranch (Oct 18, 2009)

Personally I agree with Minimor 100%. EVERY horse has ATLEAST TWO FAULTS in my eyes - the perfect horse does not exists, and if it did - NO ONE could afford it 



I mean heck, lets smell the coffee here: all breeders take the "best pictures" that generally hide the faults to the best of their ability and I promise you that if you were to compare before (winter fur, dirty, standing in dry lot) and after (clipped, spotless, lovely background) pictures of horses you would have passed on the horse in the plain jane picture unless you have a very trained eye!

What Breeder A likes and dislikes is different than Breeder B, Breeder C, Breeder D, etc. It all goes back to what YOU WANT and WHAT YOU WANT TO ACHIEVE! I strive for eye catching driving horses so if they wouldn't "hang" with the halter crowd - WHO CARES? I AM THE ONLY ONE (. . .besides my fiance) THAT HAS TO LOOK OUT INTO MY BARN AND FIELDS DAILY and so long as I am happy with what I see, everything is A-O-K. 

For example, I come from a riding horse performance world where certain faults makes a horse better able to do his job. . .for instance slightly cowhocked helps in certain western disciplines, and (excuse me if I happen to step on any toes) I find that some of the most beautiful driving horses I have seen have. . .well. . .been cowhocked. I don't put them down for it because THEY are happy with their horse. Another example is I am ADDICTED to blue eyes - I would definately pick a blue eyed horse over a brown eyed horse if both horses were equal in comparison. Same goes for being addicted to overos/toveros/sabinos/splash horses. . .given both are equal in comparison. . .I would gladly pass on the solid horse and pick the pinto! Heck its MY money and MY time/effort/barn/land/hay/feed/etc. so I will do as I please.

Bottom line is you are the one who owns the horse and so long as you are happy - then everything is still okay. However, I don't condone people breeding for unregistered stock. It takes just as much to care for one with and without papers as well as feed, vet, farrier, etc. What I would call a "crap" horse is one that you walk by and just go "Eww". Bad neck, roach back, low tail, looks like his legs have been broken several times and healed back crooked, horrible feet, head too big for body, etc. is all what "turns me off".


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## susanne (Oct 18, 2009)

Perhaps I'm jaded, but from what I've seen, too many people apparently think that if one has a penis and the other has ovaries, they should be bred.

It's not a question of "what were they thinking?" but that they're simply not thinking, period.


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## horsefeather (Oct 18, 2009)

Frankie,

I see what you are saying, and I agree with you. However (there always seems to be a 'however'



) I also agree what 1 likes isn't always what the other person likes. Personnaly, I would like to see EVERYONE quit breeding for at least 2 years. Now I know that isn't going to happen, but with the huge amount of horses (big and small) out there, I don't understand those that breed over, say, 5 mares. There are farms that breed hundreds of mares every year. Even if we could get those who are breeding (I am not, by the way), to cut down to 5 or 10 mares, that would help with the overflow of horses. It really doesn't answer your question I know. I am just afraid there will ALWAYS be those who have the 'best' horses around!





Pam


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## Leeana (Oct 19, 2009)

I think it is one of those things, you cannot tell anyone what type of car or truck to drive ... it is a free country and we all have the god given right to do what we want which is why some people just do not listen ....

I think that is the biggest issue


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## Shari (Oct 19, 2009)

Many Breed registries.. Icelandic, Fjords, Frieslands, Warmbloods to name a few, have Evals. I find these Eval's a true eye opener to the over all conformation and or ridden Quality of their horses. I find the breeders that want to learn, be noticed and improve their stock go to Evals.

Of course,, we could only do the Conformation part with the mini's.

Think the mini Registeries need to go talk to these other ones to see how they are set up, done and offer this for the miniature horse. We had a young horse conformation Evals for Icelandic's not to long ago.

Only cost $50.00 to have a certified judge come in to look at your horse. For Icelandic's these judges are flown in from Iceland or Germany so the cost is fairly high. But if we have certified judges in the States,it should not cost as much.

(showing a horse at Evals , is not the same thing as showing at a normal show)

Last time I had a foal born was 6 years ago and I have no plans in the future to breed.

As for barn blind.. one thing I am not. I can pick my horses apart like no other. In fact.. I have had other people.. even judges defend my horses against me.





To me.. there isn't a perfect horse out there, period.


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## MiLo Minis (Oct 19, 2009)

Until we have a more defined breed standard how can we ever say exactly what we are breeding for and comment on whether or not anyone's horses meet "the" standard?


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## krissy3 (Oct 19, 2009)

Isnt there a breed standard given in the rule book? I think there is, at least a very basic one .I agree with Frankie... maybe as far as deciding what makes a good horse and what doesnt ...I believe it could be figured out simply....Look at the rule book, start with following those guidelines. I realize that not every baby is going to be show quality no matter how nice the parents are , but bet honest with yourself , a cow hocked , UPF UPL (stiffel) Splay hoofed , or anything else visual that would not be acceptable for halter classes should not be sold as a show horse. To me show horse over 2,500 should be a horse that I could show in a halter class without having to say "yea we are working on the leg thing or I know shes a bit cow hocked, or I didnt know she was parrot mouthed" Along with good health , conformation and overall "correct " looking according to the club standards, should be sold as show quality, anything under that should be as a pet quality. The standard should be under the rule book guidlines. JMO There is a club here that inspects your horse before you are able to show,SVPK if it doesnt meet the guidlines for the native breed on looks and conformation, then you cant show. Its a good way of letting you know which horses are your quality horses for show , and which ones should be involved in parades, therapy programs, and as pets for kids to love on.


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## Frankie (Oct 19, 2009)

If we collectively are going to complain about prices and the market being flooded, then WE need to do something. In my opinion, the we, has to have an I in it somewhere, and that is where it should start.

I do understand that you breed what you like, but that should only go for color, not lack of quality. And IF you breed for the purpose to sale, you had better hope there are others out there that like what you do, or at some point down the road you'll have a whole lot of those horses you like still with you.

I do think people are learning, and making changes, and if more continue to do so, it will do nothing but help.


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## Shari (Oct 19, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> Until we have a more defined breed standard how can we ever say exactly what we are breeding for and comment on whether or not anyone's horses meet "the" standard?


Am not talking about "types" but of conformation. There is a difference.



Good Conformation has no bounderies across breeds.

It is much more eye opening to go to an Eval in person, compared with vauge writting in a rule book. At the Evals you talk with the judge about your horse, you sit and see other horse's judged, you will see horses not as well put together, ones that are balanced in conformation, some that are not and others that are on the right track.

This last Icelandic Eval... I finally got someone I know to it. They have been breeding for years and even though they read the rule book... they were on the fast track to ...............

Lets just say, they learned a number of things while there, talking with the judge and seeing what bad, good and great, by each horse brought in.

Learning in person is far superior, to book learning.


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 19, 2009)

susanne said:


> Perhaps I'm jaded, but from what I've seen, too many people apparently think that if one has a penis and the other has ovaries, they should be bred.
> It's not a question of "what were they thinking?" but that they're simply not thinking, period.


You are not jaded at all. We have seen this topic come up for years and have even had some good fun with it.



It's a fact in this "breed." I see many getting smarter but it's *usually* the more educated people. So as you put it Frankie......the crap goes on. You asked a simple question..........



> Really, how do you say to someone, you're breeding crap and stop it


You can't and it's not going to stop. Because nobody that breeds thinks they are breeding "crap"!

So I will bow out with another question. When is the last time you read that someone is going to go out and breed their horribly conformated mare to their even more horribly conformated stallion?


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## MindyLee (Oct 19, 2009)

I see a lot of folks sayin that other folks shouldnt breed because their horses arent nice enough, but how do you know yours is? PLUS to the ones who say stop breeding... how many of you have bred mares in your back yard right now?

I think no matter what... folks are going to breed even if you walk right up too them and say it to their face that ther breeding program sucks!

LOOK at it this way, if only 50 top breeders where aloud to breed ONLY because their horses where the only ones good enough, how many flaws do you think where going to run into than? Minis will cost millions, and inbreeding will take over and open a whole another can of worms and than... only than once again we will be here on the fourm saying these remainding mini breeders arent good enought again...

I think the best thing is to better your program and not worry about others... cause their going to be there no matter what...

*OMHO!!!*

I breed BUT Im not in it for the $$$, and I am focusing on trying to better the breed. And yes there is flaws in my back yard just like everyone elses. I agree that every horse has 2 flaws about it too.


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## WTFFarm (Oct 19, 2009)

Answer to your OP question of

"Really, how do you say to someone, you're breeding crap and stop it"

Here's my answer...you don't!

Unless someone specifically asks you for your opinion of their breeding program then it's just outright rude and none of your business what anyone else does (not talking about "you" personally) (as long as it's not illegal or immoral lol)

Unless someone died and appointed you "god of deciding what people can do" then mind your own business (again - not saying "you" personally)

We all have free choice. There's a breeding farm near me that breeds pretty low-average minis but they sell everyone they breed...that's the only thing that will change the market...not the breeders but those who buy and just because farm "a" paid a lot for their breeding stock doesn't give them the right to "own" the market and dictate to others what to breed.


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## Annabellarose (Oct 19, 2009)

WTFFarm said:


> There's a breeding farm near me that breeds pretty low-average minis but they sell everyone they breed...that's the only thing that will change the market...not the breeders but those who buy...


There you go. When breeders can no longer sell what they breed because their pool of buyers knows what a quality horse is, those breeders will either educate themselves and attempt to breed better horses or they will stop breeding horses because they can't afford to feed what they can't sell and/or they will get frustrated because they can't sell, either result works.

I see _so many_ new people join this board that seem to want nothing to do with learning what a quality horse is. If you tell them what a quality horse is, they choose to get offended (because their horse isn't a quality horse and yes, it does hurt) instead of learning from those that are more experienced than them. This can be such a great tool, I wish more people would use it as such. I wish more people were more open-minded and willing to learn.


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## Relic (Oct 19, 2009)

Geee yesterday l thought l was seeing a horse jumping on the tramp...today as l'm staring l notice it's an elephant


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## Contessa (Oct 19, 2009)

WTFFarm said:


> Answer to your OP question of
> "Really, how do you say to someone, you're breeding crap and stop it"
> 
> Here's my answer...you don't!
> ...


Thumbs up to you for taking the words out of my mouth!

How can I explain this..not every mini breeder has been breeding for 30 years and an expert on conformation. Some of us are still learning while putting herds together. You cannot compare newbie breeders to decades old experienced breeders, it's just not fair! Just because we are new at this does not mean we are stupid and are destroying the breed. Every beginner makes mistakes and that applies to breeding horses also. I have been working on putting together my small herd for almost 3 years now and I learn something new almost every day. I haven't even begun to start breeding for sales yet and I already have 1 or 2 that I plan to sell as pets for various reasons. Luckily I found their faults before breeding them but it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes 2 exceptional horses will throw a not so exceptional foal and that is just a fact of breeding. All of my horses are registerd A, R or both and getting dna'd and kept up on shots, worming and vet care. If my first foals were not so perfect and you came to my farm and told me I was breeding crap and should stop-you had better run for your life.


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## ~Palomino~ (Oct 19, 2009)

It could start off with the big farms and the people who are well known in the minis and web-sites to quit being such SNOBS! I swear everyone who is really successful in the minis that I ever talked to wont give me the time of the day when I e-mail about horses. Im not saying that what I have a crap horses but Id take my horses who are nice but not the best from my nice friends then buy a national champion from a complete snob! If it takes breeding my horses who are nice but not the best out there to deal with nicer people, I'll do it! Id take that over breeding national champions and being surrounded by snobs. Its not necessary to be so critical in these horses. It should be fun, and not so business. Were just breeding/showing/owning miniature horses. Not Curing Cancer.

Gage


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## WTFFarm (Oct 19, 2009)

Relic said:


> Geee yesterday l thought l was seeing a horse jumping on the tramp...today as l'm staring l notice it's an elephant


Don't you just love him lol



...his trunk makes me feel soooo happy as it flies up and down as he jumps. Hey who said "an elephant can't fly"...it's my "nothing in life is impossible" outlook on life


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## eagles ring farm (Oct 19, 2009)

WTFFarm said:


> Relic said:
> 
> 
> > Geee yesterday l thought l was seeing a horse jumping on the tramp...today as l'm staring l notice it's an elephant
> ...


your elephant is fabulous I love it


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## Riverdance (Oct 19, 2009)

> Thumbs up to you for taking the words out of my mouth! How can I explain this..not every mini breeder has been breeding for 30 years and an expert on conformation. Some of us are still learning while putting herds together. You cannot compare newbie breeders to decades old experienced breeders, it's just not fair! Just because we are new at this does not mean we are stupid and are destroying the breed. Every beginner makes mistakes and that applies to breeding horses also. I have been working on putting together my small herd for almost 3 years now and I learn something new almost every day. I haven't even begun to start breeding for sales yet and I already have 1 or 2 that I plan to sell as pets for various reasons. Luckily I found their faults before breeding them but it doesn't always happen that way. Sometimes 2 exceptional horses will throw a not so exceptional foal and that is just a fact of breeding. All of my horses are registerd A, R or both and getting dna'd and kept up on shots, worming and vet care. If my first foals were not so perfect and you came to my farm and told me I was breeding crap and should stop-you had better run for your life.


Believe me, there are many 30+ year breeders out there who have nothing but junk. It has nothing to do with being new or being around for a while and everything to do with wanting to learn. I have see some farms at the World show who have been breeding for many many years, who get the gate every single time. Their horses are really bad and for the most part, look like dwarfs, yet still they breed (80 or more foals a year) and show and sell, for big prices too.

As someone said, unless the public educates themselves, these farms will continue to breed and sell. Only when no one is buying from them will they stop breeding.

One of the reasons why I say show your horses, or at least go to shows and find out what a good horse should look like, is so that you can learn what to breed. A well balanced horse is a well balanced horse. It may have a more rounded butt (rather than flat), or not so quite the level top line, but it is still a well balanced horse. One needs to learn how to look for a shoulder lay back, how the neck comes out of the shoulder, a thin, more refined throatlatch, a slimmer neck. Angulation of the hocks and stifles.

Most people can see straight legs and a good bite, but did you know that it is alright to be slightly over on the bite, even slightly under, that all bites do not have to be totally even? Did you know that many Minis will toe out a bit in the rear, especially youngsters whose hips have not spread yet? Even young big horses will do that. .It does not make them cow hocked, just immature, and ca you tell the difference?

One does not have to be in the business for years to learn . They just have to want to learn


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## RockRiverTiff (Oct 19, 2009)

I think the idea that we should stop breeding altogether because of a flooded market overlooks one very important thing--many new buyers are getting into minis to BREED. I'm not saying that's a good thing, I'm just saying that if we eliminated breeding, we would also eliminate a lot of buyers, which isn't going to help the market either. How many of the people saying that we shouldn't be breeding at all have sold their horses exclusively to non-breeding homes? And really is it fair for those of us that have been in minis for years and have already had the pleasure of raising our own foals to tell new owners that they can't breed the horses they've so carefully selected because we made too many of our own the last 30 years? It's a shame with so much information out there that some people are still going to go the trial and error route with their programs, but as other people have pointed out, _every_ breeding is trial and error. What I _will_ say is that with nice, registered minis being so affordable I don't understand why people insist on breeding unregistered animals or animals with obvious and hereditary defects.


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## JWC sr. (Oct 19, 2009)

Education is the key in most cases for us. I am always excited to see new folks get into the industry and work hard to upgrade the conformation and movement in the horses they own.





I remember a nice guy that was dating a lady from up in the Brenham area a few years ago sitting with me at Worlds and picking my brain for several hours, then I saw him doing the same thing with some other folks a hour or so later. He was learning by asking questions and trying to to understand what the judges etc. were looking for. I respect him a lot for his approach and he is now doing a great job in the mini industry.





The quality of the horses these folks have brought into the ring over the last few years has improved dramatically. Why you may ask? They learned and listened. They then went about breeding, culling and improving the babies they produce. Pretty cool for me to watch anyway.





The "pet" quality horses we produce now days are way better horses than the "show" horses we produced 25+ years ago when Cindy started this deal. Why? Cindy has ask questions, listened, learned, culled and improved our herd to the best of her ability each year with long and short range plans and goals.





As far as telling someone they are heading in the wrong direction and breeding crap as someone else put it, I personally will not unless asked directly. Then and only then will I give a good honest evaluation of the horses we are ask about. We have some really good personal friends in the industry that have ask us to go thru and evaluate the horses they have several times over the past 5 or 6 years. Each time we have given OUR opinions and then left it at that. Sometimes they have agreed and made changes, sometimes not. In any case we have done what we can to help.





The mantra of finding "a horse for every job and a job for every horse" be that a national driving prospect, halter prospect or someones best backyard buddy falls into play here. As long as folks are producing horses that have no major life threatening/health threatening problems and fullfilling roles for their owners. I am not going to condemn they for doing whatever they personally decide to do as far as breeding is concerned.





Just my two cents worth on this deal, with that and 1.50 you can go get a cup of coffee. LOL


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## Shari (Oct 19, 2009)

Relic said:


> Geee yesterday l thought l was seeing a horse jumping on the tramp...today as l'm staring l notice it's an elephant


Took me a few minutes to figure it out but I think it is a really fun looking avatar!!!


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## Little Wolf Ranch (Oct 19, 2009)

I am going to chime in one more time here for the sake of things. . .

I am a younger owner/trainer/breeder and will be 20 in less than a month. My first mini was my senior stallion "Sampson" purchased in OCTOBER 2005, when I was only barely 16. I knew NOTHING about minis - only riding horses and when I saw this itty bitty cutie at my local fair I fell in love. I felt horrible for him because it was a horribly cold October and he had been COMPLETELY shaved down. He was so cold that he was shivering from head to toe. I quickly took my birthday money and directed myself to the information center to get in contact with the breeder/seller. Long story short, we got in touch, set a price to make payments and papers would be forwarded at completion of last payment, found out he was AMHR reg. ((didn't even care, didn't even know what "AHMR" was)) and was told he WAS EIGHT MONTHS OLD. Heck, Id never even seen a mini before, how was I to know?

Got him home and noticed he wouldn't hardly eat hay/grain. Had vet come out - didn't know why exactly but suggested we make it into warm mush and he ate it right up. Made all my payments and THEN FOUND OUT I WAS LIED TO ABOUT HIS AGE. His papers came back with him being JUST UNDER 2 months old when I purchased him - which lead to some physical problems. Once I found this out, I quickly had my vet out because I was SO nervous about his growth and nutrients he missed out on. Equine Specialist came out (unfortunately she moved away shortly thereafter) and told me not to be surprised if he had bone development problems due to his severe lack of calcium and other vital nurtrients, and sure enough he did. If you saw him just without knowing his story, you would call him "flawed" and would turn him down. However - his problems you see today is purely the lack of intelligence of the breeder just trying to make a quick sale at the fair to unknowing buyers, none of which are believed to be hereditary (if you look on x-rays, you can see where joints and bones had a hard time growing/fusing) and if he ever produces a foal that has his "problems", he will promptly be gelded. 

GETTING TO MY POINT. . .

I have started out young and I plan on continuing even through the hard times with this breed. I figure I have many years to learn and change directions as needed, and I will slowly gain better and better stock - but I firmly believe that everyone had a "FOUNDATION HERD" that was not as high as quality as they ended up with after years of breeding. I learn SO MANY things here on LIL BEGINNINGS ((thanks Mary Lou)) and it has helped me with striving to produce nice quality miniatures. I will not say that I have horses that will go for multiple thousands but none are "culls" by no means. I have a limited price range due to my age and status right now (hoping to change that dramatically next summer with graduating college) so that limited on what horses I could purchase to put together my herd. Personally I think each person has an individual story as to why they do things but my main thing is especially right now in these times if you are shopping for a horse, why not purchase one with papers? Most likely you will pay the same amount with or without papers depending on variables!


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## Magic (Oct 19, 2009)

I'm really enjoying reading this thread and all of the opinions, it's very interesting and thought provoking.





I've given critiques to people who ASK for them on their horses, but even then I try to be as tactful as possible.

I do agree that one of the best ways to improve one's "eye" for horses is to go to shows (Nationals and Worlds especially), keep an open mind, and ask questions of more experienced horse people. Then take that knowledge and fresh perspective and very carefully evaluate one's own horses. And not just once, but over and over and over again.

I have friends who have become judges and I regularly ask for honest evaluations of my horses from them. And though I've not shown much at all in the last few years, I plan to get back into showing because placing well or winning consistently is a helpful sign that one's horses aren't "crap".


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## KanoasDestiny (Oct 19, 2009)

Riverdance said:


> Believe me, there are many 30+ year breeders out there who have nothing but junk.


I was just thinking this! You'd be amazed at how often I hear someone talking about how wonderful their horses are, or that they're experts on good conformation, then I go to their website expecting to see drop dead gorgeous horses that are correct in every way. Instead, I see horses that look average and no better than the horses that they deem "poor quality". And I've seen plenty of horses wearing ribbons on here that don't look any more "correct", than others beloved "lower quality pets". So the fact that a horse can place and win ribbons means very little to me.

But the thing that really gets me is that there are a few "old timers" on here that have very average breeding horses, some of which have long backs, short legs and look rather dwarfy. But because they have "contributed to the breed" for years, others congratulate them on their new foals every year, rather than telling them that they are part of the problem. It seems to me that if you're well known, others will pat you on the back rather than tell you that they don't like what you produce. So in order to tell breeders to stop producing "crap", people would have to stop being biased and tell EVERY one that, new and old.


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## Jill (Oct 19, 2009)

I don't think the membership of LB truly reflects the whole of the miniature horse owning population. A lot of members here show and all members here are interested in trying to learn more about the breed to one degree or another. There are a whole lot of people out there who own minis and don't care to learn and don't try to educate themselves.

That said, it sets the stage for what I want to say next...

MOST people who are breeding their minis are breeding poor quality animals.

That's the biggest problem with our breed, imo. People breeding cr*p x cr*p and if it's a cool color, or has a good disposition, they think they've done something good.


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## BBH (Oct 19, 2009)

This thread has been a good read. Being new to minis in just the last year or so, and learning about them has been very interesting. Although from a horse background, getting into the minis does have a learning curve. I did not know which way I was going so have been to several clinics and shows to watch and try to figure that out....and I am a little closer but still figuring out. But these little boogers do get into your heart!

Also, since we all know you can't have just one, I have been looking for a 2nd mini thru the sale board on LB, papers, CL etc. Let's face it there is everything from soup to nuts out there. One ad (not on LB) listed two minis, mare and stallion, mare maybe pregnant, not yet two yrs, for 1000.00 for both. The owner did not know much about the background, thought she could get papers and my heart went out to her.....she was obviously taken advantage of when she bought them. They were not dwarfy looking but just very deformed ---for whatever reason.

Did she love them any less than any of us love our pasture ornaments or world champions?....probably not. But any breeder/trainer/sales agent/seller that leads anyone on in buying their stock and saying show quality in this situatioh makes a bad names not only in minis but every breed and it happens everyday. Alot of buyers are just unaware of what it takes to take care of a horse, they buy them for kids and they lose interest.

Many of the ads will have a stallion advertised.....'he did his job, my mares are bred, he needs a new job' or 'stallion but great with kids.' But no papers! Good stallions make great geldings, and manners or not accidents can happen and will we all know that. I understand why so many are sold as pet quality without papers a little better but why would so many be kept as studs when the market is what it is today?


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## JWC sr. (Oct 20, 2009)

If most of us did one thing for the industry as a whole that would have a positive impact it would be to geld all but the top 1 - 5% of the colts born every year it would help things dramatically. Let that top 1 - 5% grow a little older to get a good evaluation of them and then geld again.





Geldings are great, make great pets and for those that show in both registries there are programs that encourage it monetarily.





For the last 3 years we have gelded all but a VERY few of our colts and then sold them as pets or as show geldings. Additionally it is a great fund raiser for local clubs when someone gives them a gelding to be raffled or auctioned off. For the last three years we have also done that and intend to give 2 or 3 away tis year to local clubs. The one we gave away at the San Antonio show brought in very good dollars for the youth program and placed well in a really tough class at the AMHA World Show. A win/Win for everyone, the club got the money, the new owner got a winning horse and we as a farm got some great advertising.





This is the only breed I have ever been associated with that puts such a low value on a good gelding. When they are the steadiest and easiest horses to get along with, show or just love there is.


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## ClickMini (Oct 20, 2009)

The saddest thing to me about this thread is that when we are talking about upgrading your herd through breeding, etc. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A LIVE ANIMAL THAT HAS BEEN PRODUCED!!! This isn't practicing your artwork until you get better. This is producing a living, breathing, feeling BEING. And if it hasn't been produced via a very careful evaluation and by breeding the very best available, it very well may be doomed from the start.



I wish that this breed was more like the big breeds in this one area...most big horse people are NOT BREEDERS!!! They own their animals for show, pleasure, or companionship. Just because you own a stallion and mare does NOT mean you have to breed it!

It is the same with pet animals. I managed an animal shelter for three years, and I can tell you that if it has four legs and a tail, people just can't stand not to breed it. It is a tragedy, pure and simple. How many animals have to give their lives just to give people the fulfillment of seeing a puppy, a kitten, a FOAL born??? Only to pass it on to who knows what fate to make room for the next batch of furry joy.

I have no problem with people who are true fanciers breeding the very best to the very best. I don't even think they should stop breeding now, when we are clearly oversaturated in our market. These are the people that are growing our breed; they put their money where their mouth is...their foals are in the show ring, their full page color ads are in the magazines, they are the ones that are REALLY growing our breed. But, by golly, if you are producing a foal by Mr. Rough out of Backyard Betty, you better think twice. That baby, that MARE, is counting on you to make a wise decision. And if you don't, all I can say is their blood is on your hands. I have seen too much, and I am very jaded. I just love the animals, and they depend on us. They really do.


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## krissy3 (Oct 20, 2009)

~Palomino~ said:


> It could start off with the big farms and the people who are well known in the minis and web-sites to quit being such SNOBS! I swear everyone who is really successful in the minis that I ever talked to wont give me the time of the day when I e-mail about horses. Im not saying that what I have a crap horses but Id take my horses who are nice but not the best from my nice friends then buy a national champion from a complete snob! If it takes breeding my horses who are nice but not the best out there to deal with nicer people, I'll do it! Id take that over breeding national champions and being surrounded by snobs. Its not necessary to be so critical in these horses. It should be fun, and not so business. Were just breeding/showing/owning miniature horses. Not Curing Cancer.
> Gage



*YEP!!!* The more money they have the better they think they are... This is the negative spin on showing. You just have to avoid them , and buy horses from friendly smaller ranches with horses just as nice. IM me if your a small friendly ranch with reasonable prices , and horses with nice conformation. I know some people looking for horses, AMHA reg. though

I also worked in shelters for many years , euthanizing healthy dogs the weekend before 4th of July was the norm , because we were full to the brim and knew more would be comming in after the fireworks. I wish breeders , or anyone wanting to breed would attend one auction... a for real auction , and see how many healthy young horses go to the slaughter trucks because they are not selling, or trained or they have lost too many races lately , miniature horses too. I also think to some degree that its none of our business what others do in their breeding program....HOWEVER, it becomes our business when we rescue them later on finantually and emotionaly. I just purchased 60 bales of hay , and 20 of straw... I have a 1600. CHF bill comming to me for winter hay, this does not include grain , suppliments, hauling poop away from our property, and vet costs... I cant imaging what it costs breeders that have more then 4 horses, if they can afford it , I wonder how good the care is . Maybe all breeders are independently wealthy, and dont feel the economic situatoin , that we even feel here in Europe. Personaly , I want to breed my mare because I would like to keep 1 offspring from her...I have not done this yet , I will only do this when i know I can handle the responsibility of one more ...making a whopping 5. I have already asked 2 judges , and a few breeders that know more then me , if this is a good idea . After inspecting the horse they have said yes , she is good enough to breed. This is acting responsible IMO. I have the space , the money , and will keep the baby no matter what the outcome is.


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## kaykay (Oct 20, 2009)

I agree John. Gelding is a big part of the solution. I have only sold 2 intact colts of my own breeding in 8 years. And both in the last 2 years. All the rest have been or will be gelded. (and we have kept one intact for ourselves) If everyone gelds, gelds and gelds some more its a 2 fold answer. Number one you will have a better quality of stallions out there and number 2 the price of a great breeding stallion will rise.

I am very happy though that I have seen an increase in people wanting top quality geldings. Around here to show you have to have a "stallion" quality gelding to be competitive which is a great thing.

A year ago I sold a stallion quality colt to a person to geld and I gave them a very good price. Because I knew he would be well taken care of and I knew they would show him both 4H and rated shows. Just last week he won Reserve Champion Production horse in the 4H county show and Reserve Champion Gelding at the county mini show. Huge accomplishment especially for a yearling. For my farm that is a ton of advertising that is almost priceless.

Gage back when I first started I too was snubbed by some of the more well known farms. I didnt let it bother me because I met some fabulous farms that really helped me and mentored me along the way. In hindsight I was better off because of it.


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## Matt73 (Oct 20, 2009)

JWC sr. said:


> If most of us did one thing for the industry as a whole that would have a positive impact it would be to geld all but the top 1 - 5% of the colts born every year it would help things dramatically. Let that top 1 - 5% grow a little older to get a good evaluation of them and then geld again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think that everything in the mini industry is a complete 180 from the big horse world:

In the big horse world, most colts are gelded.

In the big horse world a gelding's price reflects on his performance/conformation (and can be astronomical as in hunters/jumpers and some of the western disciplines)

In the big horse world a great broodmare can sell for fairly cheap, while a great stallion can have a very very high price put on him (stallions are looked upon, wrongly, by many as contributing more to a foal than a mare does



...Also for the fact that that stallion can impregnate hundreds of mares through AI)

It just shows that many people just look at minis as a more economical way to get into breeding horses. That's all they see. As much as we want to promote the breed as a breed that you can actually do something with, there are many that see them as a little breeding hobby. I think Sea Monkeys would be a much better (and cheaper) alternative


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 20, 2009)

JWC sr. said:


> If most of us did one thing for the industry as a whole that would have a positive impact it would be to geld all but the top 1 - 5% of the colts born every year it would help things dramatically. Let that top 1 - 5% grow a little older to get a good evaluation of them and then geld again.


I agree though sadly everyone seems to think that 1-5 percent applies to them that they have the top 5 percent when in truth very few of us do (including myself)

Secondly there is this belief that a true horseman can deal with a stallion and geldings are to boring for them - they need something hotter with more spirit *sigh* I have seen it here before and just simply do not understand it short of perhaps they never truly were horse people prior to getting into minis


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## txminipinto (Oct 20, 2009)

AMEN John! Geld those colts! We have produced 3 colts here in our very limited and short breeding program. And all of them have been gelded before sold. I have offered 2 as stallion prospects but was very picky on WHO I would allow to purchase them as a stallion prospect. In the end, each buyer prefered a gelding, so* I* had them gelded. If you can't afford to geld your colts, then you can't afford to breed your mares IMO.


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## Kendra (Oct 20, 2009)

JWC sr. said:


> If most of us did one thing for the industry as a whole that would have a positive impact it would be to geld all but the top 1 - 5% of the colts born every year it would help things dramatically. Let that top 1 - 5% grow a little older to get a good evaluation of them and then geld again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Very well said John!!

I'm afraid that the respect for geldings in our breed hasn't come as far as I thought it had. This summer following a show I asked a judge for advice on my gelding in driving, and got some very helpful feedback. But when I asked for feedback on him in halter the response was "He's fine, he's a gelding", like it didn't actually matter.

We've long shown mostly geldings, and I've always believed that this would be a good reflection on our breeding program. These geldings are representing their sires, dams and siblings who are for sale at home! But I don't think other people see it that way, our geldings do very well on our local AMHA show circuit in halter and performance, but when people are looking to buy a horse (even a pontential DRIVING horse) my impression lately is that they don't even come look, having been more impressed by breeders who are winning with their young mares and stallions at halter.

I like to drive, and as a result find it difficult to motivate myself to fit and groom a young horse, do all that work, just to show it in one or two halter classes. However, it's looking like that's what I need to do to get "on the radar" of potential buyers.


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Oct 20, 2009)

Contessa said:


> WTFFarm said:
> 
> 
> > Answer to your OP question of
> ...


Thank you - as another up and coming - I think you both said this very well. I wasn't going to post on this subject at all until I read this one. Here - we invested tons of money putting together our breeding herd - purchased from those very successful 30+ year breeders - well known farms out there - big enough they don't even post on LB (but I'm sure they read it).

Anyway, I trust these breeders when they recommend the horses for me to purchase. They recommend mares that will work well with my stallions or when buying stallions they recommend those that'll work with my mares. If these top breeders of 30+ years are recommending which horse I should purchase (and in packages most times) - knowing I want to succeed - - I would think I've selected good horses based on their judgement. Someone comes in here and tells me I have crap - I'm going back to those breeders! LOL

I have mentors from these big farms that have become friends and I trust them and I return to them for more horses - and we communicate often and they are always willing to offer advice which I learn from each time. I am so appreciative that they willingly share their experiences and knowledge. I have not found any of them to be snobs whatsoever. I'm grateful for their generosity in sharing ideas, experiences and knowlege.

Last month we acquired our 2nd Buckeroo son - yes 2 sons! And we also have a Billy Idol son, a BTU son and a stallion that is grandson to both Buckeroo and L&D Scout (fabulous cross - his filly this year is already in England).

Our mares also come from well known 30+ year breeders and carry Buckeroo, Blue Boy, many top bloodlines - all purchased to compliment and work with the stallions.

We just celebrated our 2nd anniversary in the business this month (Yes, only 2 years and 2nd foaling season) - our first overseas sale this year (2 of this years babies already in England), up to 47 horses total and that's after selling 9 horses between the months of May and last week. I did not give them away by any means - got exactly what I wanted even in this economy.

I would not tell anyone else their breeding program sucked - or they were breeding crap - that's just plain rude. And I sure wouldn't want to hear that about my own herd. Now, if I asked you for your advice - and you gave me advice on how to improve my program (*based on your own successful program mind you*) then I'd be open and appreciative. But to just approach someone and insult them isn't doing your reputation very much good. Which brings me to another thought - these big successful breeders wouldn't put their reputation on the line to sell me crap either. And I always return for more!

We have such a problem here with taking pictures - we're not professional photographers nor professional groomers. Try as hard as we can to get decent pictures but like other farms, sometimes the pictures just don't do the horse any justice. It's not the horses fault - it's the operator. But I also believe that a horse fitted all up for the showring - does not look like the same horse out in the field in the dead of winter with a wooly coat - people want to see beautiful glamour horses all the time - they don't look like that every day - when show season is over, they can be a normal horse. Not every horse on a website has to have professional pictures - those big photographers don't come to every little farm just so we can have professional pics on our website. We've managed to get quite a few from previous owners, or done better at some than others.

There's another post on here about breeding foals in this economy. Yes - I'm breeding - I didn't invest all this money into horses to be lawn ornaments. *Shoot me now* - we're breeding and if something doesn't sell - I've got plenty of land and feed to care for them until they do. I agree quality horses will sell. I'm striving for quality like anyone else. I agree also that not all horses are perfect, and I price accordingly as other breeders do.

The economy will come back hopefully. I know people that have other hobbies such as boating, golfing, vacationing, skiing, happy hour and slots - you name it - - they still do it and find the money to do so. Showing horses is a type of hobby and passion others have and they'll continue to find a way to afford it and will need to buy new horses for the show ring. One day, perhaps they'll be shopping at my farm.

Updated: I'm always learning - researching - attending seminars, reading and joined LB for the wonderful people that shared their own knowledge - this is a great place to learn and I do post questions and get great responses. I don't know it all by any means - I think there's something to learn every single day. But hopefully, I'm improving by what I learn.

I do think that improvements we've made in our breeding program with Buckeroo sons will offer better quality foals to offer when we have Buckeroo and Billy Idol grandget to offer next year and the following years.


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## Little Wolf Ranch (Oct 20, 2009)

Honestly I completly agree that we need to cut back on the amount of stallions in the market. Personally coming froma big horse world - geldings sold for more than the stallions! A good quiet gelding was what everyone was seeking out - the dependability you could not find in a stallion, proud cut gelding ((gelding after sexual maturity and/or stud service)) or a mare. In the Minis. . .unless you REALLY want a gelding. . .you mostly likely will pass. At this current time, my stallions are gentle and respectful and you wouldn't know they were stallions unless there was a mare to impress 




. They all live together in a bachelor herd and while there is a pecking order, everyone follows in suit. 

When I am older and have children of my own who are interested in showing - a GELDING is going to be my gender of choice. I wish there was more of an incentive for geldings. Around here, gelding costs me about $100 per mini and my vet is nice enough to let me make payments like always to help build my credit (long story there). I don't know how much it costs with others but for me it is well worth the price. Come my first foal crop next year if I have any colts, they will most likely be gelded.

I love geldings but I do agree that if you are only breeding for show quality Miniatures and not showing, doing 4H or anything like that. . .a gelding really isnt needed on the farm unless for companionship!


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## Marty (Oct 20, 2009)

As usual, Mr. Cherry nailed it. Nice post Mr. Cherry.

I'm not so full of myself that I think I know it all, but by golly I know when its wrong!

There is a hobby farm I know of breeding minis for about 20 years and has a large herd. They pump out the old style quarter horsey type mini which is fine and ok. But I see a some of the horses with dwarf characteristics in the mix, without any being a full blown dwarf and to me that is not ok. Most are badly conformed and they use the word "correct" to describe them. But guess what? They put higher end price tags on them and get it. Most of their horses sell between $1200, and $2,000. How the heck does that happen?

I have browsed through the journal, show them a champion halter horse and they will say "my horses are prettier than that". They don't get it. They don't see it. They do not understand conformation at all. They practically made fun of my Noelle because she has such longs legs and they felt her neck was too long. ugh. They feel pedigree and staying under 34" is what is important. And why would they question what they are doing when they are getting paid very well for their stuff!





I'm not breeding anymore but I still love to learn and am lucky enough to have my "go to" mentors in place and I do keep an open mind. No one out there should think they are holier than thou and have it all perfect. I think its important to be able to keep your brain like a sponge to absorb knowledge and never get to the point where you think you have the best when there is always room for improvement.


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## Lisa Strass (Oct 20, 2009)

JWC sr. said:


> If most of us did one thing for the industry as a whole that would have a positive impact it would be to geld all but the top 1 - 5% of the colts born every year it would help things dramatically. Let that top 1 - 5% grow a little older to get a good evaluation of them and then geld again.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree completely, John!!





I am personally putting my money where my mouth is on this as well. As many of you know, I own Red Alert - the 2005 National Grand Champion Stallion and Horse of the Year for the Over Division. This year at Nationals, I was honored with his offspring winning the Get of Sire Class! Two of the horses used in that Get of Sire class were GELDINGS! Each of those geldings is also an individual Halter National Champion.

Just last week I gelded another one because I want to show him in the Shetland Driving classes, and you can't show Stallions in Ladies Pleasure Driving.





To date there is one intact Red Alert colt that I have sold.

Now I'm sure by there are people out there who will automatically assume something must be wrong with theses horses because why else would I geld them? I can tell you there is/was nothing wrong with any of them. Feel free to take a look the next time you see one at a show.


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## Annabellarose (Oct 20, 2009)

Katie Guinn said:


> the dependability you could not find in a stallion, proud cut gelding ((gelding after sexual maturity and/or stud service)) or a mare.


If you are interested in learning, the term "proud cut" refers to when part of a testicle has been left behind, not the fact that a gelding was gelded after sexual maturity or that a gelding was gelded after covering a mare/many mares. I have a Paint Horse gelding that I used as a breeding stallion for 3 or 4 seasons before I made the decision to geld him and he is not "proud cut" as the vet took the time to geld him properly.

This is not "snobbish", this is the sharing of knowledge. Hopefully we are all here to learn.


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 20, 2009)

Thanks, Annabellarose...you just 'beat me to the punch', as I was poised to post basically what you did. Information is important, but ACCURATE information is even more important! (Actually, 'proud cut' can refer to any condition where either a testicle-as in a monorchid, where the 'missing' one has to be 'gone after', but wasn't--or the 'body' along the chord above the testicle--senior moment, don't recall its name-has not been removed/only partially removed.) A 'proud cut' horse will still have some or all stallion behaviors, even in some cases, more pronounced...NOT a desirable situation.

Proper castration of a horse w/ one or both 'missing' testicles can be a VERY expensive proposition...yet another reason to think HARD before plunging into breeding-especially miniatures, where such a circumstance 'seems' more prevalent than in most fullsized horse breeds(at least in my experience). If a colt has such a problem, it is ethically YOUR problem, as its breeder, and it is UNethical to just pass it along.....

I have had two who didn't descend on their own in my years of breeding; I paid the cost(in my case, 3-5 times the 'normal' charge of around $100-125, several years back) of a proper (veterinary, surgical) castration on both; one I sold, the other stayed here, complete with his LOVELY movement. I have had numerous others undergo 'no issues' gelding, THEN sold them!

Some excellent observations in this thread. I especially agree that geldings deserve to be more highly valued,in every way; that if you can't or won't pay to geld horses BEFORE selling them, you shouldn't be breeding/selling, and ESPECIALLY with Amy (Clickmini), about the absolute need to realize that when you breed ANY animal, you are creating a life(or lives)that YOU ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR, ethically. WHATEVER happens to that animal from then on, is on YOU, because the animal would not BE here, if not for YOU. Just think about it.....

Margo


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## Dontworrybeappy (Oct 20, 2009)

ClickMini said:


> These are the people that are growing our breed; they put their money where their mouth is...their foals are in the show ring, their full page color ads are in the magazines, they are the ones that are REALLY growing our breed.


Sorry - I have to say - that believe it or not, *STATISTICALLY* the people mentioned above are the HUGE *MINORITY* of the people involved with ANY breed, any species, any competition.

All you need for full page ads is money. All you need for good photos is money. And pretty much all you need to put a horse in the show ring is.... yep, money!

Since I've been doing all these things to one extent or another for about 30 years now (with two different breeds of horses) - I think I can speak fairly objectively here.

There are good horses at shows, and good horses in backyards. There are poor horses at shows and poor horses in backyards. There are full page color ads for good horses, good breeding programs, and there are full page color ads for poor horses and poor breeding programs. Buying ads doesn't improve your stock, it just improves the profits for the magazines!





I like looking at the magazines too - and I like it when I have enough extra money to put in my own ads. I like watching horse shows, and I enter as many as I can afford to do. I like winning, too - and I do my fair share of that. Do the ads (or the neck ribbons) _*change*_ the quality of my horses or my breeding program? NOPE!

There are horses in breeding programs and in backyards that could wipe up the show ring with the proper conditioning, training and promotion. Statistically, MOST of these horses aren't doing these things because of (wait for it....) money.

Most people that breed animals have an idea in mind, an "ideal" that they are breeding for. _Hopefully_, that ideal is in the direction of the breed standard (of the chosen breed.) _Hopefully_, anyone breeding is being somewhat objective when choosing breeding stock, taking into account breed type, correct conformation, soundness, good temperament, and then whatever color they like. If not, _hopefully_ they will learn enough to do it better or stop doing it poorly.

But, unless someone asks you for your opinion about their animals, you shouldn't be offering one like "your horses are crap" and in ANY case, most adults do not have the right to tell other adults exactly what to do and how to do it.

Do we WISH we could? Sure, at times!





However, until someone is elected emperor of breeding ethics, ya gotta just do the best you can and make the best decisions for yourself and pretty much keep your nose outta other people's business.


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## wpsellwood (Oct 20, 2009)

I agree with Karen



> However, until someone is elected emperor of breeding ethics, ya gotta just do the best you can and make the best decisions for yourself and pretty much keep your nose outta other people's business.


Hey I saw Appy at worlds!!! I said hi to him in the stall when I went over there I didnt find you though. Doors says hi!!


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## HGFarm (Oct 20, 2009)

A great post and a very controversial subject, LOL

Unfortunately, I dont care HOW much folks spend on horses, breeding is a crap shoot of how well your stallion will cross with a mare. You may have two average ones produce a show champion and you may have two champions that produces something that resembles a Great Dane, instead of the fabulous Miniature they had hoped to get.

You can use the top bloodlines, spend a little or a lot, get the best conformed horses you can, and there is nothing that is going to guarantee you get a spectacular horse from any said cross. Kudos though, to those that work at it and worry about the betterment of the breed, and breeding the best that they can.

However, I do agree that there are some that dont care what it looks like, they are going to breed it. They 'like the color' or it has 'such a pretty head', etc... (and yes, I know folks who purchase and breed horses based on these.....) They dont care that it has stifle problems, is weak in the rear, toes out and consistanty produces crooked legged foals, etc....

However, I don't think I would ever have the heart to tell someone that their breeding program is crap and to stop it. I think I would try to educate them, invite them to some shows, get them more involved and hopefully, IF they are willing to learn (that's the hard part with some) they will improve their stock and weed out the not so good as they can.

For those that mass produce, or just produce whatever they breed together and hope for the best- 'puppy milling' I guess you may call it- shame on them. And hopefully they will not stay in business too long- unfortunately those with more funds to stay afloat will continue, without wanting or caring to improve.

In regards to big farms with 'money' and 'attitude' I'm not sure quite how that fit into the original post here, but will add my 2 cents worth. I find small farms with 'attitudes' as well. Having met a variety of people as I go through life, some seemed to show the need to be educated that money does not a nice person make!! I was told once years ago that I needed to respect a particular person BECAUSE they had money! I won't tell you where that went... but it has never impressed me, never will and you can't take it with you. It didnt matter that the person was a jerk?

Having a large bank account does not make a person kind, caring or a nice individual. It does not make them smarter than another. It does not make them honest, ethical or moral. That has to come from within, no matter what you have, or dont have, in your wallet. I think people with money that are not nice, would not be nice people even if they didnt have it- they seem to just be louder about it and like to make it well known just how grand they really are. No one's opinion is right but theirs. They feel they have the right to flaunt whatever they have, to the point of making complete and utter fools of themselves. You know the old saying 'They put their pants on one leg at a time, just like I do'. And some folks are nice, as long as you are SPENDING your money with them, and will drop you like a hot potato when that comes to an end. I prefer to deal with 'real' people, and put no value in how much happens to be sitting in their bank account.

I certainly don't know what the 'cure' is for 'bad breeding' (in horses or humans, LOL) but hope that those exposed to it will try their best to educate others as they go along with humbleness and kindness, but dont beat yourself up if you run across the ones that just aren't going to listen. That's just the way they are, and you can't do anything about it.

My favorite Will Rogers had a saying "Good judgement comes from experience, and a lot of that comes from bad judgement".


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## Aristocratic Minis (Oct 20, 2009)

*As to the OP's question - I would not ever tell someone to stop breeding and that their horses were c&^%.*

*As DontWorryBeHappy said, "There are good horses at shows, and good horses in backyards. There are poor horses at shows and poor horses in backyards. "*

That being said, I still feel more comfortable buying from breeders whose stock is recognized in the show ring. And the big farms we have bought from have never been anything but kind, gracious, helpful, and informative. Never were any of them rude or snobby.

My reasons for wanting to buy from people who show comes from our many years of showing dogs.

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

*[SIZE=10pt]The publication of the AKC, the AKC Gazette, stated "good breeders almost always show. They have good dogs and are willing to compete and show them to the world. Generally, when breeders do not show, there is a reason. They don't want their dogs seen by knowledgeable people."[/SIZE]** *

*
*


[SIZE=10pt]*We show our wire fox terriers often. Nearly every week, one or more of our dogs or our dogs' offspring are competing at AKC dog shows somewhere in the United States. We are proud of our dogs and are eager to have them judged and evaluated by AKC judges. Some breeders, on the other hand, do not want you to see their breeding stock, nor will they let you see their facilities. There is a reason for that.*[/SIZE]
*I've heard of people buying a horse. The horse breeder would not even let them come to the farm. Instead, they met the people at a roadside park. That would give me some concern.*
*The farms we have bought horses from have shown horses in the show ring and willingly let you visit, see the sire and dam and ask questions. Their willingness to let people see their horses, let judges judge their horses and let people see their facilities make me much more comfortable in dealing with them.*
*However, I'm sure there are some very beautiful and striking minis in someone's backyard somewhere.*


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## Katiean (Oct 21, 2009)

I have seen a couple of horses that their biggest fault is that they are not in my barn


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## HGFarm (Oct 21, 2009)

I completely disagree with the thoughts that only people who show their horses have the best ones... I know many people who just dont like to show... or have retired from that as they did it years ago, and just prefer to breed good horses. They just prefer not to get into the hassle and stress of the horse showing. It does not mean they dont know good horseflesh or keep up on modern pedigrees, etc... and breed for the best that they can........

I have also seen horses that came from big farms with 'reputations' that show... where novice owners paid HUGE money for horses, and the vet recommended they sell them, they were so badly conformed and NOT breeding quality (one had dwarf characteristics that were hard to notice for a novice, and her one and only foal was a dwarf). Because they were buying from a big well known farm, they took the advice of the knowledgable owner that the horses they were buying were good ones, paid thousands of dollars, only to have to sell them as a pet for a few hundred. They were completely taken advantage of.... I have seen this happen from small farms too... and like I stated before.. big or small, it's the person's ethics & morals that makes them a decent person, not the pocket book or how many horses they have in their pastures. I have to say, I know a lot of people though that have been taken by big name farms that KNEW better, and were more than happy to take people's money and not stand behind the horses they sold.

LOL Katiean... I have that problem a lot!!


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 21, 2009)

Vas Deferens...Margo





I agree with a lot of what everyone has said.

I geld any colt I am going to sell, this has nothing to do with quality whatsoever.

I have a beautiful, top show quality colt right now, but he is a plain Bay (I love bays, BTW!!) and he is going to mature around 33" which is too big for my programme, so he was gelded whilst he was still on the mare.

I also agree that showing is not the be all and end all, I show very little these days, simple lack of funds, but the quality of my horses remains the same.

I do not breed to show, I breed to better the breed.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 21, 2009)

I have come to this conclusion- using a horse show is better then just your own opinion however a horse is only as good as it's competition. It can be the best of the best and win a class and it can be the best of the worst and win a class so a show is not a be all end all.

9 times out of 10 even with a National show if you wait a week get in a new set of judges the horses might not place the same way in fact odds are they will not.

However for one truly open to learning and lucky enough to live in a competitive area with several trainers shows are a great way to learn and get an idea of your horse quality.

I have yet to meet ANYONE who says OMG look at the really ugly horse I bred to this horribly conformed horse over here. Everyone and I mean EVERYONE is sure they are breeding quality and that these type of conversations do not apply to them.

I am not coming from a pointing the finger I have been part of the problem and was sure I was not all I can say in defense of myself is at least now I can admit it.

I have seen many a conformation experts horses and they are surely not what I would want on my place- it comes down to you can not force someone to see without blinders- you can not change someones ego and you can not help those that feel they do not need it or are above it.

all we can do is fix our own little corner of the world and hope that it some small way it makes a difference


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## maestoso (Oct 21, 2009)

I would agree in most cases that unless you are asked for your opinion, it is not your right to go around dictating quality and what is or isn't a good breeding program. Certainly, if someone asks your opinion of a certain farm and you don't like their program, share your opinion, but it isn't anyone's place to go to that farm, knock on the door, and start berating their program. And even when you are asked your opinion, there are tactful and tasteful ways of giving it . . .

I don't think anyone here has said ONLY farms who show have good horses. All the posts have stated that there are exceptions. However, I agree that if you ask people who do show, most would likely say that the best horses come from farms who show. They would likely say that there are always exceptions, but they would say that most great horses come from show farms.

There are a million reasons why a farm may not show their horses. But showing is a great marketing tool to get your horse seen in person by large amounts of people at once.

Personally, if I was looking for a horse, I would start by looking at websites of big farms that I know breed nice horses. The reason I know that these farms have nice horses, is because either someone has advocated on their behalf, or because I have seen horses from their programs at shows. I am sure that there is that great deal hidden in the haystack, that farm who doesn't show that I may not be aware of, but that means a lot more looking and maybe more time consuming on my part. Not saying the extra effort wouldn't be worth it, but I, and many others, will do most of their looking at breeder's who showcase their horses.

Also, most buyers that are willing to pay big money for quality show horses, are buying them to show them and perhaps later use them in their own breeding program, so naturally, they will look at farms who, or trainers will be looking for them, who show. Show experience, winnings, and/or pedigrees of show winners can add value, and give a buyer a reason to spend the money. You could have the next national grand champion sitting in your field, but if you have never put in the time to condition it and show it off, only the most trained eye will be able to see that national grand champion through the "pasture condition" of your horse. If you were showing it, you would have the winnings to back up the $$ you were asking for, and people will have seen the horse in the ring. That doesn't make your horse less valuable, it just makes the value harder to see, literally.

Again, not saying that breeders who don't show dont have good horses, just that the higher concentration of show quality horses are bred by breeders who show, and breeders who show will have an easier time selling their horses, and getting the money they are looking to get.

Success can be measured in different ways, but if you were to measure selling success by profit and actual number of horses sold(which doesn't always mean quality), the most successful breeders/sellers are breeders that show, and I think most would agree with that.


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## Little Indian Acres (Oct 22, 2009)

~Palomino~ said:


> It could start off with the big farms and the people who are well known in the minis and web-sites to quit being such SNOBS! ......
> Gage


While I am sure there are some trainers, big farms etc. that are kind of stuck up. To be honest from the ones I have met, I have found that they are usually just plain busy people. I do see some of the big farms reaching out to help the Miniature Horse community etc. But, I don't see most of them having a bunch of individual time to spend with the huge amount of constant newcomers to the Miniature Horse world.

Sure, they spend more time with people who are buying horses from them. It is a business and those are their clients, it is part of the package you get when buying horses or sending show horses with these farms and trainers. It may be a little advice it may be a lot of personal attention, but the fact is that no one has time to do this for every single small farm person who would like some of their time.

I have had the pleasure of visiting several big farms over the past couple of years that I had heard others tell me the people were stuck up etc. I have not found it to be the case with any of them. I think for the most part it is a matter of understanding that they really may not have time for every single person out there. Often it is also about timing. Running a successful business is hard enough, but to keep a profitable Miniature Horse business going in this economy is amazing. It doesn't just all in someones lap, no matter how much money they started with.

One thing that I think about sometimes also is how much these big farms and their advertising helps the entire industry. The ads and their horses are amazing, they draw people in. If the average turn around for a farm is ten years, then the Miniature Horse industry needs new interest on a regular basis. These farms help with that for the industry as much as they do for themselves.

JMO


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## minih (Oct 22, 2009)

> Really, how do you say to someone, you're breeding crap and stop it


You don't unless you want to come off as sounding superior or just plain rude. Not everyone breeds for the same goals. I have not read all of this thread, but I think someone mentioned earlier about education. That is your key for everyone. I know I used to think some horses was pretty until I started learning about conformation and it has changed my whole way of looking at horses now. I do not like all of the horses that have won in the past at shows, even a few at National level, so why would I tell someone they are breeding crap.....unless (there is always an unless) it was a fault such as deformities or something like that even then education would still be the key, I would not use the term crap.


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## tagalong (Oct 23, 2009)

> It could start off with the big farms and the people who are well known in the minis and web-sites to quit being such SNOBS! ......
> Gage


I have never found that to be the case...

Perhaps one should not have the opinion before hand that such people are all snobs - it may be coming across in how you deal with them.

It might also help that one examines how one is emailing that big farm.. or how you come across on the phone. If your inquiry was full of _"I want the best horse you have with the nicest colour and I want it to drive and win every halter class and go get groceries for me and save Timmy from the well every Wednesday - and I will only pay $500 for that"_... you may get a more guarded reaction.

It is the same thing as complaining that only big trainers get the top prizes... that is not always the case even though many insist it is so. The big trainers are not going to have a piece of crap on the other end of the lead shank. They know their horses. It is not always "politics" if the big name trainer's horse beats yours. I have heard some people claim that it was always political - and that was why they did not win... but then you looked at their horses and it was clear that they were not quite the equal of said trainer's horse. But they did not want to learn...

IMO the mark of a GOOD breeding program is the quality of their _geldings._

Another mistake some make is assuming that because they have a Rowdy grandson - or any Buckeroo horse - that they are superb quality and should be bred. Horses should be judged on an individual basis, not just based on their bloodlines. _Breed the best to the best and hope for the best... or drive the rest..._ whichever way you want to say it. Even two National Grand Champions can produce a foal of average or lower quality - but at least they started with the right "input".








> Not everyone breeds for the same goals.


But they should be - on the most basic level. The goal should always be the best horse possible. As balanced as possible. As correct as possible. Good basic conformation cuts across any and all "types".


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Oct 23, 2009)

We don't have a horse in the show ring yet- not because we don't think our horses aren't worthy of perhaps succeeding in the ring - but we're building our breeding program which means we're purchasing horses from other breeders. Which also means these horses have *OTHER FARM NAMES on them.*

With the initial investment in stallions and mares, I needed them to breed - to work - and not be gone for a year somewhere else. I learned quickly that the show circuit coincides with the breeding & foaling time - duh.

Then probably the most justifiable reason is that - if we're going to pay the huge amounts of money it takes to send a horse to the trainer and be shown - - then I think it should be a horse that I've foaled, that *CARRIES MY NAME* to get us the recognition a farm hopes for by sending a horse into the show circuit.

Perhaps next year we'll have a horse or two for the showring - they'll be bred by us and carry our farm name prefix. I would also hope that someone buys a foal from us that will be shown - again it will carry our name and get us recognition. The two fillies we sold to England will be shown - and hopefully successful and bring us recognition and new buyers from overseas as well.

I realize our farm may be overlooked right now because we're not out there rubbing elbows at shows or displaying our horses in the ring - but we have a business plan - and we'll get in the showring with the right horse that carries our name. We've purchased stallions and mares that come from long line of champions - full brothers and sisters are champions - I know that's not a guarantee that they'll produce champions - but the odds are certainly in our favor that they will.


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