# Would like to make a point here...



## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 26, 2007)

Please post pictures here of your miniature horses who have VERY araby heads, including tippy ears, dishy foreheads, rounded nostrils, teacup noses, etc. Would like to focus on PROFILE shots showing all features!

The point of this thread is - to discourage those who believe dishy heads automatically = dwarf! I am having a fit now because i've heard situations and events come up with a few friends of mine, also myself included, and I am getting tired of trying to explain that dishy heads, tiny ears, big doe eyes, and teacup noses (with flare!) are a goal that many are striving to breed for (not all, I know).

Now...I know there are many of you who have posted some gorgeous heads, I would love to see them posted here as well and if I get enough, i'd love to see about printing off this topic to share with my local vet, dentist, farrier, etc. to have photo proof that mini's are bred to have certain features...not just bred to be small and clunky!





:


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## Erica (Oct 26, 2007)

I just have to say I think we as breeders don't need to strive for these _ultimate _ exotic heads, talk to an experienced miniature equine dentist..........when you get into these teacup muzzles and very short heads you end up with no place for the teeth to go, and you end up with problems when they start shedding and getting their permanents in. I can't remember what Carl has said but I think 7" is ideal from eye to nose he said to have room for the teeth. These extreme baby doll heads just aren't made to hold all these teeth.


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 26, 2007)

Erica, i'm not talking of _extreme_ as I do understand there is a line between what is acceptable, and what isn't. I am just looking for some photo support, my vet seems to think that _any_ dish to the forehead at all means dwarfism, and I know I see many many many mini's of todays breeding with dish and it's been discussed before that dish is becoming an "in" thing. I am trying to get photo support to show to my vet, farrier, and equine dentist that the mini's of today are very different from the mini's of 20 years ago...but it's hard to explain when they think it's only my point of view. So I was hoping to get photo support on here!

Or rather well, now I just feel stupid for even asking as I know a few people may take this way out of proportion...

Ok nevermind. I can't explain it right and it's just frustrating me now!


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

first of all i totally agree with erica. the other problem is "dishy headed" is so subjective. One persons dish is another persons bulge. Just depends on who is looking. I have to say though I would rather people be overly cautious over dwarf traits then not.

The same thing with nostrils. To me an upturned nostril is a definite dwarf trait but some may call that a "flared nostril"

Ill get jumped on again Im sure but to me i want the dish along the jaw line not on the forehead. Heres a copy and paste Carol wrote when this came up before



> In the Arabian breed it's called a "jibbah". Some Arabians keep their "jibbah" while some don't. Some people like it.....others hate it. It will make a dish look dishier but has absolutely nothing to do with a dished head. A true dished head will have a dish with a FLAT forehead.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 26, 2007)

there are some things I look for as "characteristics" that are dwarfy and then try to eliminate that or.. for sure not duplicate up on those genes. I was taught this by a wonderful mentor to see who is or I should say likely is a dwarf gene carrier ( I surely dont believe all minis are statistics just dont support that but that is a whole different discussion)

so I dont look for a very dishy head or "flared" nostrils as to me that is a indication note I said INDICATION that the horse COULD again note I said COULD be a dwarf gene carrier and not something I personally strive for in any way.

I can honestly say I think most mini people are a bit confused when it comes to "arab type" but again all of this is JMO

IMO minis of today have less of this so called "dish" look and have more horsey or proportionate heads.

If your vet is willing send him to some web sites of top winning horses farms that consistenly put out National Champion horses that might help him see the difference


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## outlawridge (Oct 26, 2007)

KayKay, thank you for that clarification quote. So many people think a bulge out of the forehead equals dishy head like an arabian, NOT SO! The mini heads I stay away from are bulging out at the forehead instead of flat, going into a pretty dished araby look.

I am home to three beautiful adopted dwarf little girls and they all have bulged out foreheads, short noses, and teacup muzzles. Obviously dwarf traits, however, not necessarily the same head type that minihoofbeats is referring to as she specified ARABY heads. True araby heads have no bulge.

My stallion had always been considered to have an araby head. He does not have a teacup muzzle, nor does he have a bulge or short face. He does have a flat forehead to dish, dishy cheeks, large eye. To me, he looks like a true araby head but this would not be consider so by many breeders today. Here's an older pix of him (sorry, haven't taken any of him in quite a while) which doesn't show his dishy cheeks as well but does the dish in his face.


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 26, 2007)

MiniHoofBeats said:


> Please post pictures here of your miniature horses who have VERY araby heads, including tippy ears, dishy foreheads, rounded nostrils, teacup noses, etc. Would like to focus on PROFILE shots showing all features!


First of all what is a DISHY FOREHEAD??? A forehead is not where a dish should be to begin with.........

Like Kay quoted me above......a BULGE in the forehead has nothing to do with a dish and from what I understand that bulge is a dwarf trait. But far be it from me to argue and I have to say whatever anyone says here it won't change anyone's mind about what they want to breed. But, I will just say this again. A bulge in the forehead is *NOT* a dished head. A dish has nothing to do with that bulge.



> Ill get jumped on again Im sure but to me i want the dish along the jaw line not on the forehead. Heres a copy and paste Carol wrote when this came up before
> QUOTE
> 
> In the Arabian breed it's called a "jibbah". Some Arabians keep their "jibbah" while some don't. Some people like it.....others hate it. It will make a dish look dishier but has absolutely nothing to do with a dished head. A true dished head will have a dish with a FLAT forehead.


And even though I make my living showing/marketing Arabs I do not see any minis that really have Arabian heads............minis are more PONY headed with a big jowl that is not really looked upon as an attractive Arabian trait. Yes, a resemblance at best but NOT a good Arabian head. I have posted numerous pictures to try to get this point across. Like Erica and others point out a mini needs room for all their teeth. A nice head in proportion to the body with GREAT expression is much more important then a tiny pony head with up turned nostrils.

Steffanie......why don't you post a picture of what you think is a dishy head and I assure you people will tell you whether or not it is dwarfy. Not my thing.............I just find this whole Arab.....dishy bulgy poney head thing a very uninformed way of thinking. Sorry.


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## CLC Stables (Oct 26, 2007)

I agree..........one persons "dish" is another's dome.

An Arabian's head looks so much different that a miniatures. I truly wish we could get away from using those terms period.


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

I honestly think some miniature breeders years back came up with this term to make their horses sound "araby" or to excuse a bulging forehead. Even the thread that came up a few weeks back I got jumped on by several people when I said what a dish is. I was told back in my big horse days that the term dish got coined by meaning you could set a dinner plate below the eye thus the term "dished"

Heres one of our mares that has (or i think so) a beautiful dish but is she araby headed? NO.


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## Georgine (Oct 26, 2007)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1592/9647...9/285286855.jpg

I often refer to a horse as having a "dishy face" and I do like the look.

Often the babies will have an "araby look" but it changes as they mature.

The photo is of a tiny filly born to parents who are both just under 30 inches.


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## Jill (Oct 26, 2007)

*[SIZE=12pt]Harrell’s Rowdys Reflection of Hope[/SIZE]*

2002 33.5” AMHA/AMHR Silver Dapple with Sabino mare – Halter Grand Champion – Daughter of Cross Countrys Rowdys Reflection
"Hope" has what I consider a dishy head but not an extreme situation, she's been exposed to DunIT for a possible 2008 foal


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## CLC Stables (Oct 26, 2007)

Georgine (MY OPINION HERE) your little foal has more of the domed head, to me it is not an Arab dish.

Jill's carries more of the Arab look, but still comparing Apples to Oranges in my opinion.


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 26, 2007)

Everyone's horses on here are great examples of what I am talking about...though I am now VERY confused in regards to the difference between a "bulge" and a "dish" aren't the two, the same?

Dish to me is any slight bump, anything other than a flat across forehead between or slightly above the eyes.

?? Here I thought I just put my foot in my mouth but now i'm confused LOL!


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## Georgine (Oct 26, 2007)

http://pic20.picturetrail.com/VOL1592/9647...9/285289026.jpg

This is the sire of the filly pictured in my earlier post.

I agree about the "dome" look at that stage of her life.

She does not have that pronounced forehead now.

Her head is more like her sire.


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 26, 2007)

p.s. in regards to the original reason of my post, I was looking for ADULT headshots as I know foals can be born with extreme dishes that grow out as they age.


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## Jill (Oct 26, 2007)

I do own another horse, a coming 2yo filly, that to me is araby looking. But, I agree with Rob. What they MOSTLY resemble -- go figure -- are miniature horses :bgrin To my eyes, the color of this particular horse adds to the overall impression of being arab-like (but mostly mini looking LOL).

*[SIZE=12pt]Fantasy Corral’s Secret Treasure[/SIZE]*

2006 AMHA/AMHR Grey Filly – Buckeroo and Egyptian King Breeding


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

Im going to use a bigger pic with an arrow pointing to the dish. This to me is a dish! This is what I was always told growing up was a dish. A big problem in minis is so many are straight on the bottom. And I was told growing up a horse straight on the bottom was not as strong in the jowl. Sorry but I have a hard time using paint or I would just draw it


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## Jill (Oct 26, 2007)

To me when people refer to a dishy head in minis, they are talking about the flat of the face, not the "jowls". Correct _term_ or not, I would think 99.99% of mini people are speaking of the forehead / flat of the face when they say a dishy head.


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## skanzler (Oct 26, 2007)

Well I will put in my two cents worth. When I got into minis several years ago, I never understood the term arab type mini. I have not seen a mini yet that looks like an arab. And certainly these babies do not grow up to look like an Arab. There are certainly miniatures born very refined, but not arab. Many have extremely delicate heads with wide set, large eyes. Small ears and a nice convex forhead and sloping muzzle.

A dwarf characteristic in a mini is, as Rob said, a definite dome, with wide set eyes and up turned nostrils. Usually an unusually short muzzle and very small atypical ears.

I do notice most breeders don't use the term Quarter horse type, although there are some very beautiful quarter horse heads out there. And some quarter horses that are very refined, but you don't see the quarter horses breeders calling their babies "Arab type".

IMO


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## Bess Kelly (Oct 26, 2007)

This what you had in mind? or are you talking about foals?


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 26, 2007)

MiniHoofBeats said:


> Everyone's horses on here are great examples of what I am talking about...though I am now VERY confused in regards to the difference between a "bulge" and a "dish" aren't the two, the same?
> 
> Dish to me is any slight bump, anything other than a flat across forehead between or slightly above the eyes.
> 
> ?? Here I thought I just put my foot in my mouth but now i'm confused LOL!


Again.....what is going on with a forehead thing? Bulge or not has NOTHING to do with a dish. A dish is located further down.

OK.....Steffanie, trying to help you out here. Where is the bulge here???? Notice the FLAT forehead. Not saying that some Arabians do not have a jibbah.......that bulge you are talking about........but the DISH IS NOT THE FOREHEAD......it's lower. Arabs can have their dish in different places, some higher and some lower.......but a dish is never in the forehead.







Or this? Even though the forelock is covering the forehead......this horses forehead is flat.






Of course these are Arabs..........and I know you would like Miniature horse examples but this picture shows clearly a "dished face" without a jibbah.

And a dish also has nothing to do with the jowl.


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

Jill that is pretty much my point! When this came up last time and I got heat for what I said sp I asked some breeders that I respect a lot and they agreed that a dish is not a bulge in the forehead. So Im good with it but I think miniature breeders need to stop calling bulging foreheads araby or dished. Especially when this trait is so linked to dwarfism.

Carols quote again which i fully agree with



> First of all what is a DISHY FOREHEAD??? A forehead is not where a dish should be to begin with.........
> 
> Like Kay quoted me above......a BULGE in the forehead has nothing to do with a dish and from what I understand that bulge is a dwarf trait. But far be it from me to argue and I have to say whatever anyone says here it won't change anyone's mind about what they want to breed. But, I will just say this again. A bulge in the forehead is NOT a dished head. A dish has nothing to do with that bulge.


Carol maybe you can use paint and point out the dish? this is what I have always been told for years was the dish? And when I asked around again I was told that is the dish. GRanted I grew up with quarter horses though not arabians





No matter what no one will ever convince me that a bulging forehead is a dish


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## Jill (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh, no, you can't expect everyone to get with it and use the right terms :bgrin Not when they're too busy breading their phillys to their studs and all. But I do not think even with arab breeders, the dish is at all where you drew the arrow. I think it starts between the eyes like, and goes down. (see Carol's post).


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## ClickMini (Oct 26, 2007)

Here is Esprit, he has a very nice head. I look at Esprit and don't necessarily think, "Arab," and that is also not what I want to breed for. I want a pretty head with some substance to the horse. I think "Morgan type."






This is what he looked like at a few days old:






Here is another from my farm, her name is Colors and she is related to Esprit:











I will say that I would not want a horse with any more refinement in the face than either of the above two.

Here is Colors' mom, I think she has what I consider a pretty "mini" face; wide-set eyes, shorter face:


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## Devon (Oct 26, 2007)

Vertical Limit said:


> MiniHoofBeats said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone's horses on here are great examples of what I am talking about...though I am now VERY confused in regards to the difference between a "bulge" and a "dish" aren't the two, the same?
> ...


Exactly!!

Look at those heads there is no DOME at all its just a dish..



:


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## lvponies (Oct 26, 2007)

Kay...you confused me. Why was your arrow pointing to the jowls of the horse? I understand about the bulge on a forehead not being a dish, but the dish of an arab is down below it's eyes.

Bess.....I love your horse!!! Very pretty!!


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## Miniequine (Oct 26, 2007)

I too, think of 'dishy' as the dip in the face.

I have a mature mare with a tiny, dishy head. Carl did

work on her teeth in Texas, and I was pleased that she has no issues.

He just popped a bunch of caps.

I won't post her picture.. I'm sure you all are sick of seeing her...

But I have a friend that owns a 5 yr old mare with, what I think is a 'dishy' head.

I think, one of the prettiest I've seen.

This is Darlin', posted with owners permission....She has had no health issues


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## runamuk (Oct 26, 2007)

Carol any chance you could post either pictures or links to some of the Arabians you work with?

Arabians do not normally have a bulge. Their forehead is actually usually quite flat, it is the chisel of the nose bridge, the wide set expressive eyes, and the tapering muzzle with LARGE nostrils, and fineness that make the head so different. Actually not all arabs have alot of dish at all but still have very characteristic arabian heads.

I think in Miniatures the term araby causes much confusion and isn't a really appropriate term to use.

OK I see Carol already posted while I was typing.............


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

Im not trying to confuse anyone! This is what I have always been told made a horse dished. Now again I grew up with quarter horses not arabians! Again when I was taught it was said you could lay a dinner plate on it. When you look at so many minis they are a total straight line on the bottom which I have always been told is not a good trait.

Im hoping Carol can show where she is saying the dish is because I think a lot of us are confused LOL.

I also think this term must have different meanings breed to breed.

Honestly I dont care where the dish is as long as its not in the forehead



:


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 26, 2007)

Bess Kelley - YES you have it on the dot! I hope to god you don't mind me posting your pic as an example but THIS Is what I am trying to refer to as the dish - the circled part:






And I think this mini has an absolutely gorgeous head =) I know not everyone likes this type however, I do know that SOME OF US (not all) like this type and breed for it. It offends me to hear my vet automatically assume mini's with dishy foreheads are dwarfs so, I was trying to say something here...I think first thing first we all need to know a common "dish" understanding lol!

Here's my girl who I think has a beautiful exotic head:






and I need a newer pic of Riley but he has a beautiful roundness too:






My mare Sunny I consider to have a flat forehead






Anyone understand what i am talking about now?


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## lvponies (Oct 26, 2007)

As I understand it and have always believed, the dish is below where you circled. Not the forehead, the convex part below the eyes.....where it dips in.


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

I think this gets more confusing as we go lol. Because that circle above to ME is the forehead



: I better go feed horses is so much less complicated LOL


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 26, 2007)

MiniHoofBeats said:


> Bess Kelley - YES you have it on the dot! I hope to god you don't mind me posting your pic as an example but THIS Is what I am trying to refer to as the dish - the circled part:


NO NO NO! That is a forehead......period................NOTHING TO DO WITH A DISH>

Let me go try and show this somehow..........

I'LL BE BACK!

Edited to show you my magnificent artwork.........

Here is where the dish is located.......could be a touch higher or lower depending on the horse but it is NOT the forehead! Who comes up with these things???????

Sorry! *This is not complicated.* Most of you guys understand perfectly what a dish is. Some of you are just totally misinformed.



> I think this gets more confusing as we go lol. Because that circle above to ME is the forehead I better go feed horses is so much less complicated LOL


Come back Kay......it's not you!


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## Jill (Oct 26, 2007)

I think the reason some mini people are confused is that in order to have a "dip down" (what command of terms I have), the forehad does need to be a wider / deeper part of the head, but the dish starts between the eyes and goes down. To me, it almost looks like you take a scoop out to "dish" it like if you were sculpting the head. But it all deals with the top part of the face, not the underside / jowls.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 26, 2007)

As said the dish has nothing to do with foreheads- it is in/on the nose.

It has nothing to do with the jowl- never heard that, Kay, maybe it is a regional thing??

If not, not sure where it came from!!





The Jibbah I do know about.

The problems with Minis is that, as can clearly be seen- most Minis have PONY heads (not an insult, a fact) NOT Arab heads.

Some of the most extreme heads I have seen are on Welsh Sec A's- not renowned for being Horses, in fact we are very proud of them being ponies- whereas Arabs, irrespective of size, are Horses.

Unfortunately in a Mini, a bulging forehead and a dished nose often _are_ a sign of a dwarf, and often go with other features such as nostrils on the top of the nose, a short neck- Oh, why am I telling you lot, you know what a Dwarf looks like, right??

I am afraid some people need to look carefully at pictures of Arabs if they think their horses are Miniature Arabs.

I think some people need to look carefully at their Horses............


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## Nancy (Oct 26, 2007)

Vertical Limit said:


> MiniHoofBeats said:
> 
> 
> > Everyone's horses on here are great examples of what I am talking about...though I am now VERY confused in regards to the difference between a "bulge" and a "dish" aren't the two, the same?
> ...


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 26, 2007)

> I know this is a little off topic but, just had to say Carol your arabians are gorgeous. I had a arabians years ago but, none that would compare to your two they are stunning.


Thank you Nancy, but these two horses belong to the Emir of Qatar (Al Shaqab Stud in Doha, Qatar) who is a client of the farm and who we show horses for in the Middle East and the States. I am just happy to be a part of these horses lives.


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 26, 2007)

Miniequine said:


> I too, think of 'dishy' as the dip in the face.
> 
> I have a mature mare with a tiny, dishy head. Carl did
> 
> ...


This mare has a gorgeous head as well, this is another great example of what I was looking for =)

I understand dwarfs and their characteristics but my point I am trying to make is simple but it keeps getting tossed around  The mare above has no issues and is a perfect example of a healthy miniature horse with a "characteristic" that most would think only seen on a dwarf but its NOT TRUE! It's a beautiful characteristic that I for one, want to embrase - not accentuate any more, but, embrace. Although, I also want to breed for tinier ears, set closer together (I know my girls have long ears lol...) and I want to breed for a nostril flare...not nostrils on top of the nose, but beautiful flare (and not permenantly seen, only when the horse flares it's nostrils)

I also have goals for the rest of the body however I am very picky about heads. I chose the ones I have because of certain features, and it offends me when people come in and don't understand that horses can be bred with such characteristics, without being dwarfy. I often get asked if because mine are so small (under 30") if they are "midget" or "dwarf" mini's and of course they aren't...people assume. I was hoping to get a lesson together here to show to my locals but well.......there it went lol.....

SORRY though, I did think a "dish" meant a raised area between the eyes and ears, I didn't know it meant a dip just below the eyes. I will admit to that :bgrin


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## buckonranch (Oct 26, 2007)

Yes... who are we.... What are we?????

I beleive the miniature horse breeders concept of the "Dished" head is a bulged forhead. How else would a mini get a dish????.. Well we know they are not Arabs.. so is it expressing the recessive traits.??? Is it better off calling them Arabian over Recessive heads? It makes it so hard when there is NO TYPE in the miniature.. everyone is out looking for a prototype.. I think they grabbed on to the Arabian.. No body is using the quarter horse as their role model??? I think the goal of the Arab..has been adopted because the Arabian is the finest, most delicate looking of the big horse breeds.. so we have set our sights on looking like an Arab.. because after all we are only a height registry/association.. what does our standard of perfection say we should resemble.??? I guess it doesnt matter..??? Makes one think how a judge percieves our little equine in the show ring...

Very good discussion and imput....

Angie/buckonranch


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## Nancy (Oct 26, 2007)

buckonranch said:


> Vertical Limit said:
> 
> 
> > > I know this is a little off topic but, just had to say Carol your arabians are gorgeous. I had a arabians years ago but, none that would compare to your two they are stunning.
> ...


I would be too . Have always loved arabians they are breathtaking to just watch them trot.


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## Miniequine (Oct 26, 2007)

OMG, those arabians are STUNNING!!!

~Sandy


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## dali1111 (Oct 26, 2007)

This might help. Here is a picture of a dwarf I volunteered with until he passed away. You can see the obvious difference between him and the horses posted with lovely dishy faces.


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## runamuk (Oct 26, 2007)

buckonranch said:


> Yes... who are we.... What are we?????
> 
> I beleive the miniature horse breeders concept of the "Dished" head is a bulged forhead. How else would a mini get a dish????.. Well we know they are not Arabs.. so is it expressing the recessive traits.??? Is it better off calling them Arabian over Recessive heads? It makes it so hard when there is NO TYPE in the miniature.. everyone is out looking for a prototype.. I think they grabbed on to the Arabian.. No body is using the quarter horse as their role model??? I think the goal of the Arab..has been adopted because the Arabian is the finest, most delicate looking of the big horse breeds.. so we have set our sights on looking like an Arab.. because after all we are only a height registry/association.. what does our standard of perfection say we should resemble.??? I guess it doesnt matter..??? Makes one think how a judge percieves our little equine in the show ring...
> 
> ...


You seem to have some of the same thoughts I have had. What is a miniature horse? The standard in AMHA is open to interpretation with no real defined "type". Even in breeds such as morgans or arabians or the welsh sections there are guidelines of type. All these breeds have interpretations but in general they all look like the standard. Miniatures can be so variable as to look like completely seperate breeds. I really feel for the judges as there are so many horses that can look so completely different yet meet the guidelines laid out in the standard.

I do see more miniatures moving toward a distinct american shetland style, and others that look almost section A welsh but much more refined. The tiny tippy ears are definately a pony feature rather than a horse feature. I think it will be interesting to see if either registry eventually changes the standard to reflect a specific type.


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## Brandi* (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok I see that there are obvious differences between a healthy mini and a dwarf but all the buldgy forheads look the same to me. Healthy or not. Is it just me? I like a "dishy" face but without the buldge. Just because I don't like it doesn't mean that they have dwarf traits though. I would tell your farrier, vet and who ever else to do some research before they start being rude



:

P.S.

I think the horse that RHA has in their icon looks like a little arab. Head, neck and body . Very pretty



: :bgrin JMO though



dali1111 said:


> This might help. Here is a picture of a dwarf I volunteered with until he passed away. You can see the obvious difference between him and the horses posted with lovely dishy faces.


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 26, 2007)

> And even though I make my living showing/marketing Arabs I do not see any minis that really have Arabian heads............minis are more PONY headed with a big jowl that is not really looked upon as an attractive Arabian trait. Yes, a resemblance at best but NOT a good Arabian head. I have posted numerous pictures to try to get this point across. Like Erica and others point out a mini needs room for all their teeth. A nice head in proportion to the body with GREAT expression is much more important then a tiny pony head with up turned nostrils.


I totally agree! I have yet to see a true "arabian head" in a mini. I know many use the expression but having arabians as well I am afraid I have never truly seen it in a mini or in any other breed.


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## Katiean (Oct 26, 2007)

kaykay, you are wrong when you say they are saying the jowl as the dish. This is a strong jowl that you are pointing out. I have had both Arabs and Minis. They are both born with a domed head. Of course you don't want that domed head to be too buldged in any case. My mares head looks very much like Jills mares head. Which I consider to be a dished head. If she were a stud you would see much more jowl as studs are the ones with a bigger jaw as in any breed.


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 26, 2007)

Here is a picture of an arabian foal, I don't see a domed head. This foal is sired by the stallion I will be breeding my mare to :bgrin hopefully this coming spring :bgrin


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 26, 2007)

LOL Angie Buckon you said it pretty much the way I would (only better of course) I personally do call those types of heads recessive but that is just what works for me.





I am not sure where anyone is getting they should have a domed head if you look at these top arabs meaning quality arabs you will see they have quite the opposite in fact they have wider flatter forheads for lack of a better way to describe it. There should be no dome of any type


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## Brandi* (Oct 26, 2007)

Oh he is a prety one Danielle



:


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 26, 2007)

bjpurpura said:


> Oh he is a prety one Danielle
> 
> 
> 
> :


Cute as a button



: . I am double lucky because the stallion is only 20 minutes away from me so it won't be complicated and have to get semen shipped in. The sire is a Padron son named Pommerol and I was lucky enough last year, during their "Garden Party" to spend an hour or so with the stallion and he is soooo sweet and gentle



: .

This is a great thread and even though I stated I have never seen an "arabian head" on a mini there are some exceptional minis out there with very nice heads, more refined than some but I have to say I like all the looks in minis. As long as the head fits the body type..... I also find that many have the more refined heads as youngsters but as they mature they sometimes lose that.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures (Oct 26, 2007)

I agree that in the Minis a "dished" head is interpreted in different ways and not always the most correct. Enjoying the discussion though, this is what betters the breed! :lol:

I have no idea what "type" of head this mare has, but she is my favorite! She has big brown eyes that just make me melt, so here is Spring, spoiled and she knows it.



:


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## Boinky (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok maybe it's just me but i'd consider this mare more "bulgy" than dished. from the front on view it looks like she bulges out and the "dish" caused by it is so high up. It's not the type of dish i'd breed for. i like it to be lower on the nasal bone as the arabians posted have. the dish in the nose is part of the nasal formation and has NOTHING to do with developing a bulge on the forehead to make it look a bit dished.

Honestly i'm thinking part of the problem with this issue is that MANY mini people jump into the breed and start breeding. They have very little experience with any other horses or breeds. I grew up learning about all the different breeds ect and showed horses for years before getting into mini's. I think it's truly a lack of education and not getting out there and SEEING other types and how they differ!

Anyone should be able to look at an arabian head and see the differnce between one and another breed. many breeds have very distinctive heads as well. it's about education and learning what there IS out there, how it works and what you like and dislike for your own program.

This might get me flamed by saying this..but i've noticed that a lot of Buckeroo horses have a bulge (almost more like a jibba than big dwarfy bulge) ..not real extreme but it's there!



Miniequine said:


> I too, think of 'dishy' as the dip in the face.
> 
> I have a mature mare with a tiny, dishy head. Carl did
> 
> ...


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## Katiean (Oct 26, 2007)

That arab foal was not a new born. I would expect my minis by that age to not have a domed head either. See my avatar. I think my foal has a nicely dished head. But, it was domed at birth. So were all of the arab foals I delivered.


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## susanne (Oct 26, 2007)

I think a good way to describe a dished face is that the profile between the horse's eyes and nostrils is a concave shape-- it dips in. It is the opposite of a roman nose, or the convex shape seen on a draft horse.

What many seem to miss is that the beauty of an Arab head is so much more than the individual features. It's not just the large eyes, the tippy ears, the delicate throatlatch, the well-defined jaw and teacup muzzle.

The Arab head has classic proportions and balance. The beauty lies in this balance and how each feature plays off of the next. It's about how that jaw complements the throatlatch, how the jaw is then counterbalanced by the dish. It lies in how those hooky ears are the logical extension of the arched of the neck, and how the flaring nostrils echo the large, liquid eyes.

Remember the original Ford Mustang? It was designed to look as if it was moving, even when parked. This car could have been named the Arabian, since you can imagine the wind flowing over the curves of this horse whether it is racing or standing still.

As beautiful as minis can be, thhey do now have the "real estate" to achieve this grace and exquisite proportion. They, too, may have huge, wideset eyes, a delicate muzzle, a dished face and tippy ears, but on the mini these features don't add up to classical, almost unworldly beauty as they do on an Arab.


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 26, 2007)

Katiean said:


> That arab foal was not a new born. I would expect my minis by that age to not have a domed head either. See my avatar. I think my foal has a nicely dished head. But, it was domed at birth. So were all of the arab foals I delivered.


That foal (filly) in that pic was five days old so I consider that newborn.

This picture she was 1 1/2 days old


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## StarRidgeAcres (Oct 26, 2007)

It's a pet peeve of mine, but I can't stand it when miniature breeders refer to their horses are "araby" or "arabian-type" etc. I have NEVER seen a miniature that looked like an arabian! Have we forgotten what arabians look like? Look at the stunning arabians posted on this thread. Show me a mini that looks like that!



:


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## Leeana (Oct 26, 2007)

I think we're making this harder on ourselves then it really is lol.

I think if you just look at the head, you should tell if the top of the head is buldging out, top of the head meaning between the eyes up to the ears. A nice small slow slope between the eyes to the end of the muzzle is what i personally like. A small SLOPE in the area that Carol pointed out, not a huge 90 degree drop.

When i hear 'dishy' or see a horse and personally determine if the head is dishy and stylish or not, i look at the WHOLE HEAD. I like to see a small/medium head with a slope under the eye and a smaller muzzle with larger nostrils. I also dont like a horse that is flat under the jaw, i like a pretty jaw as well and tiny ears. I like the dish down below the eyes all the way through the muzzle. I do not like a flat head, it does not appeal to me. A sloping head on the other hand, now that i can appreciate. Here is one of my dishiest heads:

I personally dont think we can really define 'dish', i think a 'dish' can be a number of things on the head but a buldging dome is not attractive lol. I was watching the AMHR Nationals dvd today from RFD and there is a black horse on there with the largest buldging dome i have ever seen, just not pretty to me.

Westwind BTU Crown Prince Narko: You can see the gentle sloping and how the muzzle is tiny and refined compared to the top of the head.











Two of my faverite heads is Ima Boones Little Buckeroo Too and Little Kings Buck Echo 's heads, both completely different but so beautiful.

One persons dish is another persons dome lol


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## shane (Oct 26, 2007)

this is my foal at three months old you can see the dome clearly here, i wouldnt like it to stay like this though

http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d97/lynda7249/100_1608.jpg]http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d97/lynda7249/100_1608.jpg


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 26, 2007)

thanks for clearing that up Danielle I would have thought him to be around a week old so I was close


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## Marty (Oct 26, 2007)

My 2 cents:

I think the use of the word "dish" is just not appropriate and misleading.

It's a slope, a dip, a curve, a slump, a ski slope, a something, but not a dish.

I also think that the modern miniature of today took on a life of their own and they look like themselves and resemble themselves.


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## Crabby-Chicken (Oct 26, 2007)

This has been an interesting discussion. I have to agree with a lot about our miniatures. Those arabians show me how far I still have to go in my breeding program....

The curve between the eyes with a lump on the forhead as an adults tells me that the horse is carrying some extra chances at producing a dwarf when its partner has the same gene ( outwardly visable or not)

Here is my stallion. He has what I would call a quarter type head. He has a slight dish, and it is down where it should be,,,, not between the eyes, it is where the halter hits him. He was having caps dropping, so you see his teeth bumps underneath. He does have nice cheeks or jowls, too long in the length, it is an okay head. Araby??? Nope,,,not close to me. But I hope that in the next ten years or so we will be getting closer. He has plain ears and smaller eyes than I like. But to me doesnt seem to have the dwarfy forehead bump.


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## outlawridge (Oct 26, 2007)

susanne said:


> I think a good way to describe a dished face is that the profile between the horse's eyes and nostrils is a concave shape-- it dips in. It is the opposite of a roman nose, or the convex shape seen on a draft horse.
> 
> What many seem to miss is that the beauty of an Arab head is so much more than the individual features. It's not just the large eyes, the tippy ears, the delicate throatlatch, the well-defined jaw and teacup muzzle.
> 
> The Arab head has classic proportions and balance. The beauty lies in this balance and how each feature plays off of the next. It's about how that jaw complements the throatlatch, how the jaw is then counterbalanced by the dish. It lies in how those hooky ears are the logical extension of the arched of the neck, and how the flaring nostrils echo the large, liquid eyes.


VERY well said and explained. I also used the term "dishy cheek" in my post as this was the term used by several arabian breeders/show that I had talked arab heads with...go figure. It is confusing. What I am referring to as being as an arab dishy cheek is clean throatlatch, nicely rounded cheeks all in proportion and balanced.

I would like to add that the bulging foreheads seen in some of the ads for big farms and show horses really bothers me. It is an obvious dwarf trait to me, and I resent this being promoted as an "arab head". It is an insult to our intelligence and skills of observation. It is so far removed from an arab head, as has been pointed out by several in this thread already. A bulgy forehead creats the ILLUSION OF A DISH BELOW IT. There actually is none. The dish is not the forehead, again, as has been repeatedly pointed out here. There are also several that show a bulge and then a turned up nose. This gets to the really frightening point for me in breeding as now there is a double whammy of distinct dwarfism traits. Why oh why do people think this makes their mini look araby?? Please, stop breeding this way. It is heartbreaking to me when people allow the genetics for dwarfism to be continually bred into our wonderful horses. My best bred mare produced a minimal dwarf, purchased her bred, not from my stallion, and after knowing more, I will not breed her again. Why? Because her offspring carry a 25% chance of having the dwarf gene. Before I knew this I bred her once and got a beautiful boy, yes, he is gelded. I won't take the chance of getting a filly and then having the cost of spaying her. Okay.. I know, another whole topic so off my soapbox now.

Below is a pix of five week Dolly, shortly after she arrived. Dolly is a full blown dwarf we adopted in 2006. You wouldn't believe the comments I received from this one pix that she was such a pretty, araby mini with a teacup muzzle and dishy head. 

(Edited to add that to me, Dolly and the rest of our adopted dwarfs, along with the minimal dwarf boy born to the mare, ARE perfect and beautiful. As representations of the breed and what we hope for? absolutely not! But they were born, and therefore worthy of my devotion, love, and the best care possible.)


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## Mona (Oct 26, 2007)

: OMG...now I am totally confused too!!! When I hear the term "dish", I always thought it was referring to the concave "dip" from the eye are down the face towards the muzzle, as I have marked with the hand in your photo example here. I always considered what you pointed out, to be the jowl.








kaykay said:


> Im going to use a bigger pic with an arrow pointing to the dish. This to me is a dish! This is what I was always told growing up was a dish. A big problem in minis is so many are straight on the bottom. And I was told growing up a horse straight on the bottom was not as strong in the jowl. Sorry but I have a hard time using paint or I would just draw it


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

okay Carol I fed the horses, fed the humans and came back LOL. Thanks so much for putting that on the photo.

I think what it boils down to once again is DISHY has a lot of different meanings to different people. My understanding has always been what outlaw said above. I even asked my neighbor with the huge foaling farm down the street and he takes it the way Outlaw



> VERY well said and explained. I also used the term "dishy cheek" in my post as this was the term used by several arabian breeders/show that I had talked arab heads with...go figure. It is confusing. What I am referring to as being as an arab dishy cheek is clean throatlatch, nicely rounded cheeks all in proportion and balanced.


and I do. 
But again I and my neighbor and the people I know do not have Arabians.

But like I said before a bulging forehead to ME will never be dishy or exotic or anything else you want to call it.

Mona Carol put a pic on showing the same place you did right after my pic





While there are some nice heads posted on this thread none of them imo even are close to an "araby" head.


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## buckonranch (Oct 26, 2007)

[SIZE=10pt] Yes... let get them out here... Calling all miniature breeders who profess they breed the tru Arabian Miniature.. this is your chance... Free advertising... Lets see them...[/SIZE]

Angie (this is more fun that going out dancin on a Friday night!!!) :lol:


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## Mona (Oct 26, 2007)

> Mona Carol put a pic on showing the same place you did right after my pic






: Yep, I see that now, but I wasn't done reading all the thread when I replied. I came into this late.


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

I love angie :aktion033: I really need to come visit!


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## seahorse (Oct 26, 2007)

GREAT discussion! :aktion033: Very informative. I was starting to think people actually wanted minis to have "bulgy" heads.



Jill said:


>


My mom and I both LOVE your mare! We also saw her baby on your web site, and she is also fantastic!


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## mininik (Oct 26, 2007)

I almost hate to say it, but I see some definite similarities between the head of the dwarf foal posted by outlawridge and the heads of your mares, Steph.



:


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## ThreeCFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Well Nicole, you started it, but I have to say that one mare in particular has always struck me as being dwarfy. I'm not saying my horses are perfect, but maybe the comments that prompted the OP to start this thread was about that one mare? I won't say which one in public unless the OP asks.

Sometimes a fresh eye makes all the difference in looking at our horses.


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## kaykay (Oct 26, 2007)

Steph I hope you arent too upset by the comments. I do applaud your vet for being able to pick up on these subtle dwarf characteristics that so many miss.

And I think this thread has been great and shows just how subjective a "dishy" head is in our industry.

Like so many have said so many dwarf carriers or minimal expression dwarfs slip under the radar and this thread really shows how it happens


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 26, 2007)

Well I have to say here that many of the horses posted well ok some of the horses posted that have been thought to have "dishy" heads or whatever you want to call them have other issues that stick out to me as "carriers" or characteristics which alone make me think but when coupled with things such as head ect can be more of a red flag for me but again that is JUST ME

like a short neck- or a long body with short legs ect

I often find my vet is good at pointing out things that I might not see since he is not into minis and is comparing (as it should be) them to large horses


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 26, 2007)

kaykay said:


> And I think this thread has been great and shows just how subjective a "dishy" head is in our industry.


Well, I truly hope it has opened a few eyes as a dishy head is NOT a subjective term. Maybe subjective in the Miniature horse breed but not in the Arabian breed. It is what it is and people have been misled by others who are totally clueless. I guarantee you can walk up to any "educated" Arabian breeder or show person and ask them what a dish is and it certainly would not be a forehead or a jowl..............



> Well I have to say here that many of the horses posted well ok some of the horses posted that have been thought to have "dishy" heads or whatever you want to call them have other issues that stick out to me as "carriers" or characteristics which alone make me think but when coupled with things such as head ect can be more of a red flag for me but again that is JUST ME


And I have to agree........I see pictures here of horses expressing multiple recessive traits. Very scary IMHO. And with the dwarf problems as a whole I think that before buying horses for breeding that people need to get a whole lot more educated.


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## mininik (Oct 26, 2007)

I understand that there are likely many out there who will look at either of those mares and as outlawridge had someone comment on her dwarf, they will see "a pretty, araby mini with a teacup muzzle and dishy head." Opinions will vary, but mine was not based only on the heads of those two mares. This has nothing to do with their type, or even their color. I understand that the smaller these horses get the harder it is to fit in the proper proportions, but I believe there is a certain point where basic conformation is still sacrificed for small stature by some breeders. Whether or not either of these mares actually IS a dwarf or even has dwarfism in their genetics is not for me to say. The fact that I can see definite similarities in them to some of the dwarves I've seen was enough for me to say so honestly, with no malicious intent. In fact, if this thread wasn't set up the way it was I never would have commented.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Oct 26, 2007)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> LOL Angie Buckon you said it pretty much the way I would (only better of course) I personally do call those types of heads recessive but that is just what works for me.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


like these?



:











Having both Arabians and Minis - I've yet to see ANY mini with a truly "arabian" head.... most times when threads start asking for pictures of different "types" of minis, all I ever see are minis that look like minis! (as they should! Just like Arabians should look like Arabians!)




:


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 26, 2007)

Ok now no fair everyone knows I am a SUCKER for a flea bitten gray it is my all time favorite look just so classy I LOVE IT that horse is to die for

but yes exactly like that and the horses Carol posted... how anyone sees anything but a nice flat forhead with pretty big nicely set eyes is beyond me



:


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## susanne (Oct 26, 2007)

Hmm...I thought my post was clear about the dish being on their face between the eyes and the nostrils...but then a comment referring to a comment about my post once again connected the dish to the jaw -- LOL!

I've never heard or read of it being located anywhere else on the body.


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## ThreeCFarm (Oct 26, 2007)

Me too, Lisa! I LOVE grays, but have yet to get a gray mini. We still have my mother's gray QH mare though, so she'll have to do for now, LOL. All of the Arabians posted are GORGEOUS!!!!!!!!!! I used to ride and show a gray Arab gelding who was one of my all time favorite horses.



:


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## The Dynamic Duo (Oct 26, 2007)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> It's a pet peeve of mine, but I can't stand it when miniature breeders refer to their horses are "araby" or "arabian-type" etc. I have NEVER seen a miniature that looked like an arabian! Have we forgotten what arabians look like? Look at the stunning arabians posted on this thread. Show me a mini that looks like that!
> 
> 
> 
> :



In reply to the above statement^,

Last weekend at the show here in Katy I saw one of the most refined horses Ive EVER seen in my LIFE!I didnt happen to get a picture as by then, my camera was DEAD but maybe another attend-e got one?

She did happen to be 2.5 months old but boy she didnt look like she was going to change at all!


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## Tami (Oct 26, 2007)

Here is my girl, Ima A Little Blue


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## mininik (Oct 26, 2007)

Tami, Blue is super cute. From the looks of it her forehead does have a dome to it, while there is also a dish below her eyes. In this picture her nostrils are flared, so it may make their placement look higher than it is in actuality. She's got typical Mini jowels, but overall her head gives a cute, pleasing appearance. From there, I like the cleanness of her throatlatch. She'd be amazing in my eyes if her withers and neck, chest and front leg tie-ins were more pronounced. I think that may require a bit more length of neck, a more laid back shoulder and longer arm bone. Beyond that I like her compact little body and her length of leg. It'd be interesting to see her in a picture completely stood up.

I hope you don't mind my little unofficial critque. I'm not clear on your intentions for posting and will gladly edit my post if you'd like.




:


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## Mini Brook Farm (Oct 26, 2007)

This colt remains one of my favorites. He's very much modern Mini in type including an incredibly gorgeous Arabian type head.....

Here he is Mini Brooks Warrior


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## Tami (Oct 26, 2007)

Mininik, no problem. Part of my issue with Lil Blue is that she is 25.5" and an easy keeper....lol. We did show her at an AMHR show and did not expect her to do much again 32 yearlings, plus she doesn't like to stand still...lol. She pulled out 2 4ths in a class of 15. And she is full of attitude so it is hard to get a photo of her. She was trotting around when she saw my husband dragging a water tank and then she snorted at him....lol.... and I took the photo because she was standing still. She is character to put it mildly....lol.


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## Fred (Oct 27, 2007)

for those of you that think a mini can't look araby I can tell you my gray mare does. My vet breeds and shows purebred arabs and says my mare is araby. Not only that when we did the Fantasia I had all the arab breeders chasing me down to where they could find one like her. I also had a gray purebred arab mare that was a dead ringer for this one except for size. Angie you saw this mare at nationals and commented on my horses heads. Linda


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## nootka (Oct 27, 2007)

My weanling colt now gelding. He was six months old in these. He has about as "extreme" of a head as I would like to see. It curves in below the eyes and has a nice space between the eyes, and the forehead did slightly bulge when he was small, but is growing more flat like his sire's (in Crabby' Chicken's post) and his nostrils are not placed too high.











Here it is when he was just a few days old. Luckily, it is maturing very pleasantly, much like his dam's:






(you can sort of see the shape of her head, she is a yearling in this photo)

MiniHoofBeats, I hope you don't take any offense, but that little appaloosa mare's (the second photo) head is not shaped like an Arabian, and it gives me reason to wonder if she has an underbite...that type of head is a sign of dwarfism. The dish is part of a malformation, and combined with the large dome and high-placed nostrils is worrisome.






I know you don't think I'm right, but if you look at her head shape, it is "U" shaped (when viewed from the side and three-quarters view), and has a bend upward. It makes her look like she's sticking her chin out, and usually these types have underbites. If not, I am wrong, but overall, the head says dwarf, not dish as in the type that would be associated with an Arabian. Then again, I'm not a person to say that my horses look at all like Arabians, I just try to strive for horse-like proportion and pleasant features.

Also, as Lisa pointed out, the red pinto posted earlier has a very blocky dome that is much like mare that had here that produced a dwarf filly (the filly was very minimal, but to me, it is what it is, like a little bit pregnant, a minimal dwarf is still a dwarf).

It is not ONLY the head that plays in, but a few of these horses shown, the head shape alone would take them OUT of the breeding shed. i don't know about the rest of you, but the risk is way too great to risk the birth of a dwarf and the life of my mare.

I know I got very lucky in a few of my first breedings, I would just like to say that we all don't get so lucky and I know noone really wants a dwarf born. If you look at photos of dwarfs and their parents (when people are honest), you will see the signs and realize what is played with when we excuse deformities as other features.

I hope this isn't too off topic or too harsh, I don't mean it to be. Only trying to save some heartache. I know you all love your mares as I did mine, I never would have bred her, I found her a pet only home. I would and will do the same again.

We can sometimes learn from each others' mistakes. I have nothing to gain by saying these things, only hope to head off problems. If that appaloosa mare's bite is on, and her other proportions are good, I would just chalk it up to her having a very strange looking head, but guessing there may be other things going on there. I do believe she is a dwarf.

I mean no disrespect nor harm in saying so, I would just be VERY CAREFUL with you decision to breed her. I know that you will find long-term breeders to encourage you, but I would caution others to have a look at their dwarf production record, too, as in some say they are merely a fact of breeding. I fully believe that most of the dwarfs could have been avoided if people were more discriminating in their breedings. I may be wrong, but I can see it in most of the parents when I can see them.

Liz


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## Bess Kelly (Oct 27, 2007)

I would adore owning any -- JUST ANY -- of the true arabs that were pictured



: My favorite breed.

The horse I posted........I really am not happy with his head but, he throws a nice one on his foals, not as extreme (thankfully) but with nicely tapered muzzles. He has some great legs and most amazing hooves you could ask for, which he shares with all foals! Really, great feet !! I have a couple of other stallions who tend to put a nicer head, with pretty little muzzles on their get and with the cutest curved, pointy ears you could imagine.



: Maybe I should have bred a couple mares this year


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## Mona (Oct 27, 2007)

Bess Kelly said:


> I would adore owning any -- JUST ANY -- of the true arabs that were pictured
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Bess, do you have any other head and body shots of that stallion? Recent ones maybe? I have seen that particular photo so many times throughout the years, and always loved that picture, and I have always wondered if that horse's head was actually as extreme as it looked, or if it was just the way that one photo happened to turn out? I never knew you oned him, but he's soooo pretty! I imagine he is getting up there in age?? Into his teens?


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## StarRidgeAcres (Oct 27, 2007)

nootka said:


>


OK, _that boy _is about as close to "araby" as any mini I've ever seen!

Now, having said that, would I confuse him for an arabian? No. But his neck and head do resemble one. Regardless, he's gorgeous!



:

Liz, you really raised the bar when you gelded him!


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## Jill (Oct 27, 2007)

Thank you very much



: I'm really happy with Hope and would hold her filly, Flirt, out as one of my best



I'm excited to see what Hope and Flirt will produce w/ my stallions in the years to come



:



seahorse said:


> GREAT discussion! :aktion033: Very informative. I was starting to think people actually wanted minis to have "bulgy" heads.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## gatorbait4sure (Oct 27, 2007)

AFTER reading ALL this I STILL wonder why we don't, as breeders, owners, and lovers of these horses, make the two miniature horse "breeds" , BREEDS? I mean a REAL breed instead of a height breed? I'm using that term loosly.......

What is stopping us?

It would require a "Standard" (a guide to what the parent club is looking for the animals to look like) .

And all "Standards" are up for personal interpretation, but it would give newbies a guide to try to breed toward, instead of helter skelter breeding.

I know that a club putting together a standard takes a long time, but as we are going now, breeding miniatures is anyone guess, and until someone moves ahead and tries to form them as a BREED we'll continue to do as it is.......

Should I do this as a new post? ( and put on my flame suit? )

dru


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## Charlotte (Oct 27, 2007)

gatrorbait4sure. there are breed standards. The Standard Of Perfection for AMHA & AMHR. Check your rule book.

Charlotte


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## Margaret (Oct 27, 2007)

I certainly dont profess to breed Araby type miniatures, but Ive been told by an Arabian breeder that this filly looked to have Arabian charactoristics in her head type.

She has no apparent dome on her forhead, but perhaps the gradual sloping down her nose gave that impression.


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## Dona (Oct 27, 2007)

A "dish" is simply a "concave" profile, as opposed to "convex" (Roman nose) or straight.

I've seen some lovely heads on this thread, and also some that definitely show signs of Dwarfism.

I'll join in & show a couple of foals we've produced here...

This filly shows a lovely, Araby "type" head without being too extreme, IMO.






This filly also had a nice head & big eye, which I love. Of course, both fillies had a bit of the "baby dome", but that should disappear as foals grow into adults.



:


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 27, 2007)

gatorbait4sure said:


> AFTER reading ALL this I STILL wonder why we don't, as breeders, owners, and lovers of these horses, make the two miniature horse "breeds" , BREEDS? I mean a REAL breed instead of a height breed? I'm using that term loosly.......
> 
> What is stopping us?
> 
> ...



No flames from me, I will join you on putting on the suit because I agree with you 100%



Margaret said:


> I certainly dont profess to breed Araby type miniatures, but Ive been told by an Arabian breeder that this filly looked to have Arabian charactoristics in her head type.
> 
> She has no apparent dome on her forhead, but perhaps the gradual sloping down her nose gave that impression.


:aktion033: I agree :bgrin. It will be interesting to see as she matures if she keeps that "look"


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## Becky (Oct 27, 2007)

I agree with Charlotte. We *DO* have a breed standard as found in both AMHA and AMHR rulebooks. I breed toward the breed standard.


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 27, 2007)

What I meant by my comment is that it is a "height" breed so you could use whatever "pure breed" or "breed" as long as it met the height requirement. I would like to see that stopped and eventually developed into a "pure breed".


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## buckonranch (Oct 27, 2007)

I am hunting for the Standard of Perfections in the rule books?? anyone have a page??? angie

FOUND IT AMHR pg. 241.

Head: in proportion to te body, neither excessively long nor short.. The eyes should be large and alert, and prominent with NO discrimination in color The ears.. open towards the front and carried erect..

SO??? thats it.. You tell me what this describes.. ?

Amha Pg 83

Head: In proportion to length of neck and body,. Broad forehead with large pominent eyes, set wide apart. Comaratively short distance between eyes and muzzle Profile straight of SLIGHTLY CAVED BELOW THE EYES.



: LARGE NOSTRILS. CLEAN REFINED MUZZLE. EVEN BITE.

Angie


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## Kendra (Oct 27, 2007)

Very interesting thread!

A few weeks ago we took a mare and foal to Spruce Meadows to sit in our miniature horse club Equifair booth during the Masters.

She is our favorite mare, and we'll all tell you, the prettiest head on the place, though she's had some foals that give her a run for her money! But I'll tell you, not one of us has ever called her araby, just because, well, she isn't one!

But the whole day we were there, people kept asking us if she was part-arab ..... and I mean constantly, all day!! The people from the Arabian booth even came over to comment on her "arab" head. My brother, who spent the most time in the booth while we were doing demos, couldn't believe it.


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## Becky (Oct 27, 2007)

Angie, the AMHA Standard of Perfection is located under Show Rules, CL-000, pg 83 & 84.


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## horsehug (Oct 27, 2007)

Here you go, Angie.

Susan O.

Standard of Perfection

General Impression: A small, sound, well-balanced horse, possessing the correct conformation characteristics required of most breeds, Refinement and femininity in the mare. Boldness and masculinity in the stallion - the general impression should be one of symmetry, strength, agility and alertness. Since the breed objective is the smallest possible perfect horse, preference in judging shall be given the smaller horse, other characteristics being approximately equal.

Size: Must measure not more than 34 inches at the withers, at the last hairs of the mane.

Head: In proportion to length of neck and body. Broad forehead with large prominent eyes set wide apart. Comparatively short distance between eyes and muzzle. Profile straight or slightly concave below the eyes. Large nostrils. Clean, refined. Even bite.

Ears: Medium in size. Pointed. Carried alertly with tips curving slightly inward.

Throat-Latch: Clean and well defined allowing ample flexion at the poll.

Neck: Flexible, lengthy, in proportion to body and type and blending smoothly into the withers.

Shoulder: Long, sloping and well angulated, allowing a free-swinging stride and alert head/neck carriage. Well-muscled forearm.

Body: Well muscled with ample bone and substance. Balanced and well proportioned. Short back and loins in relation to length of underline. Smooth and generally level top-line. Deep girth and flank. Trim barrel.

Hindquarters: Long, well-muscled hip, thigh and gaskin. Highest point of croup to be same height as withers, Tail set neither excessively high or low, but smoothly rounding off rump.

Legs: Set straight and parallel when viewed from front or back. Straight, true and squarely set, when viewed from the side with hooves pointing directly ahead. Pasterns sloping about 45 degrees and blending smoothly, with no change of angle from the hooves to the ground. Hooves to be round and compact. Trimmed as short as practicable for an unshod horse. Smooth, fluid gait in motion.

Color: Any color or marking pattern, and any eye color, is equally acceptable. The hair should be lustrous and silky.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 27, 2007)

well to me and this is just me.. a cartoon drawing (although a nice one) showing simply a horse with correct conformation doesnt exactly equal a standard of perfection but that is just me


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## Minimor (Oct 27, 2007)

If we're discussion standards of perfection, I have to point out that no matter how detailed you make a standard of perfection, you will still get 10 different "looks" from 10 different breeders, each and every one of which will insist that their horses match the standard EXACTLY.

Look at the Morgans. Morgans are supposed to look like Justin Morgan. There is a wood cutting of Justin Morgan that is supposed to be the closest replica of him. There are paintings of what is considered to be the ideal Morgan mare, gelding and stallion. (Beautifully drawn horses, not "cartoon" drawings!) The standard of perfection is quite specific as to conformation traits (length of hip, appearance of head, etc). Yet people will put forth all sorts of horses as outstanding examples of Morgan type. There are several Morgan "families" each with its own distinctive type and appearance. There are individuals who look very much like Saddlebreds. There are individuals that are rather Arab-y, and some that are very much "western" in type. They all look very different, yet they are all Morgans and for all of these different looks and types there is someone that will insist that is the "ideal" Morgan according to the standard of perfection.

At this point in time the standard of perfection for Miniatures can be describing a nice Arab type (if such really exists, I think those described as Arab type are more Welsh type in many cases) or QH type or Saddlebred type or Morgan type...and if you make the standard even more detailed to try and described EXACTLY a certain specific type--you are still going to have people trotting out their Arab or Welsh or Saddlebred or Morgan or QH type horses and insisting that they match the standard.


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## Katiean (Oct 27, 2007)

Danielle_E. said:


> Katiean said:
> 
> 
> > That arab foal was not a new born. I would expect my minis by that age to not have a domed head either. See my avatar. I think my foal has a nicely dished head. But, it was domed at birth. So were all of the arab foals I delivered.
> ...



In that pic you can see the slight bulge in the forhead. It doesn't have to be a big one. But, they all have it


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## gatorbait4sure (Oct 27, 2007)

OK, Back from chores....

The standard is, in my humble opinion, open for discussion as it still does not give someone new to the breed and REAL "Picture " of what we are trying to accomplish. I am also not saying a "Cartoon" drawing will help but, a nice series of drawings ( so we don't use someone's actual horse ) with areas to breed for AND faults we'd like to get rid of....like conformation problems.

Also include drawings of long backs ( assuming we'd like short ones ) What the National BREED Club wants for heads, the necks we are trying to produce and the ones we are not trying to produce.......etc.

EXAMPLES and written descriptions....

And why are we not a breed yet? This is a question, not an accusation.

Flamo


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## Minimor (Oct 27, 2007)

gatorbait, seriously, you can have all the drawings and pictures and diagrams you want, and people still see what they want to see! show someone a photo of a nice long hip and that someone may very well point to a horse with a short, tipped-up-toward-the-dock croup & say "yep, that one over there has the perfect croup". I've seen it over & over again--people read a description or look at a drawing or photo & they see or read into it just what they want to see.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 27, 2007)

Does anyone think the AMHR and AMHA websites should feature pictures of all the past National Grand Champion geldings, mares, and stallions? Have a page where one could go and check out what the judges are picking as the CLOSEST LIVING IDEAL STANDARD at the National level? Because there is no set detailed standard... what is showing and winning at the National level is what a breeder should theoretically strive for.

There is always a market for quality, winning horses. Those who grumble about falling prices, inability to sell foals, and "my horses are correct and the type I like even though I don't like the fad xyz type" possibly are not striving to follow what is winning. I hate to say it, but the dollar generally follows what's at Nationals. At least that's sort of the way I see it?

We always admire breeders like Getitia, Erica, the Taylors, Little Kings... breeders who generally don't have much problems selling their horses for more than an auction price and breeders who don't generally have problems breeding National quality horses. But those breeders are at Nationals, year after year, putting their homebred horses up against others from all over the country/world. They are adapting and tweaking their programs for the better, making whatever needed changes to make the most desirable, healthy, beautiful animal they can.

The breed standard is general, not specific, and changing all the time to taste, fad, and some breeders' dedicated move to produce the best horses they can. The quality of the miniature horse is improving year by year. I have seen a huge change in the past decade, and there are some truly beautiful animals out there.

That said, I do thank those dedicated breeders who are able to consistently produce those National winners... it shows!

Andrea


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 27, 2007)

I have to say that EVERY single foal I have ever foaled out of whatever breed has ALWAYS had a bulgy forehead to some degree- I have even seen newborn SHIRES with it- I think we can safely dismiss this as a "breed" characteristic, and, since we all know what Shires and Clydes end up looking like, we can say that the bulge has nothing to do with the end product!!

Also ALL foals have the bulge, most foals have a dish of some kind- it does not stay.

For me, if the muzzle will not fit in a teacup- and I have not seen a mini, my own included, (Except Shah Jahan & - oh flip what is his name- the horse in the picture - Amerigo??) ) whose muzzle would, then the dish means little.

You have to start off with the basics, or you cannot get the end result.

I have seen some nice heads on here- I have seen some I consider Dwarfed or with Dwarf traits, and Yes, I am afraid, Stephanie, I really do include your Appy mare in this.

She does not have an Arab head and she does not have a Welsh Type head either- I really do think, and have always thought, she has a dwarfy head.

Sorry.

I would never mistake a Mini of any sort for any sort of Arab- and I know someone who has a 36" part bred Arab (registered) and I also bred one of my Arab mares to my Mini stallion- the result was a very nice Pony indeed- but not something that would shout Arab at you!!

I think what we have here is confusion- I have seen many Minis now with lovely heads and bodies to go with it- Sorry but I have to drag Prince into this as he has not been posted.

That is one of the nicest ADULT horse I have seen for a long time, and he also happens to be a Mini- now THAT is what I am breeding for- something that is very, very nice, FIRST and foremost, and just _happens_ to be a Mini!!!

No dwarf characteristics and maybe not the smallest horse in the world (who cares??) but absolutely as near perfect as you can get.


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## gatorbait4sure (Oct 27, 2007)

Mimimor,

What I am asking for is two things. I should have been more specific, sorry.

1. I want the AMHA and all it's members ( as well as the AMHR, and all IT'S members ) to organize and make this a breed WITH two sizes ( could be two different BREEDS with different sizes ).

2. Draw up a DETAILED Standard as to what THE BREED CLUB deems IT'S "Ideal Standard " of the BREED.

It will then be up to the INDIVIDUAL breeder to interperate what that is saying ( no two people see things alike ) but it will have that "Standard" as a guide.

As it is, we are not a BREED but a measurement, and we do not have a DETAILED Standard IMHO!

ALSO, I do NOT want what is winning, (judged by QH judges, Hackney judges, Arabian judges, etc. even though they have their Mini license), posted as what we should be breeding for, I want it done BUY the PARENT CLUB!!!! Why should we ask a QH person to tell us what we should be breeding??? No offense intended.....

Flamo the Magnificent


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## Mona (Oct 27, 2007)

> Except Shah Jahan


Shah Jehan definately did NOT have a tiny "teacup" muzzle, at least never in any of the photos I have seen of him. I owned a son of his, and even though he was very pretty headed, he also did not have a "teacup" muzzle.


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 27, 2007)

nootka said:


> MiniHoofBeats, I hope you don't take any offense, but that little appaloosa mare's (the second photo) head is not shaped like an Arabian, and it gives me reason to wonder if she has an underbite...that type of head is a sign of dwarfism. The dish is part of a malformation, and combined with the large dome and high-placed nostrils is worrisome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



We all know pictures can be taken at wrong times...chewing, lipping, etc. Lee Minks was just here to do work on her teeth and said she has the best structured jaw he's seen in a while. Dead on alignment. She did have some teeth to float but I told him I doubt she had seen a dentist since before I got her so that was expected. No, she doesn't have an underbite.

Ok well I haven't even read the rest of the posts after this one on page 10 but I am going to come out and say I am deeply, deeply disappointed in a lot of you...no words can even come out of my mouth right now that would be nice. I have been overly excited about the foal I am expecting from my Dippers Duffy daughter and now after so many compliments on her and comments and yadda yadda, now people say she has dwarf characteristics? Breaks my heart...

What breaks my heart most is that EVERYONE missed the point of this thread and took it over as their own. I am tired of greedy, spotlight hungry members...sorry there it is, there's the truth. There are those among us who specifically specialize on certain traits, and we need to understand that because miniatures are evolving, ever changing, it has to be accepted that just because certain features are bred for DOES NOT MEAN it is any longer a characteristic. Look at weiner dogs, (dachsunds) sure they can be called midget or dwarf but...the point is, their short legs are bred to be short...and they aren't criticized or chastised for that. Who's to say just because one person really wants to breed for small, tippy ears, that "oh that's a dwarf characteristic, you're breeding dwarfs. Even though the rest of the horse looks great those small ears make it a dwarf!" Insane how some things aren't accepted...

This is more for others defense than my own as my program is still ever changing but...take a look around...domed heads are being bred for! They're no longer being avoided, they're being bred for. Maybe you don't, and that's fine whatever TO EACH THEIR OWN. I see them every day, every where! I see more domed heads posted in this post (except the arabians) than ever before and that was sort of my point. Even those of you who posted and said "this one has dish, but no dome" you are SO WRONG! Take a second look at your horses forehead! If you can't lay a ruler across that without it tipping then that's NOT a flat forehead!

Frustrates me where this post has gone...and that so many of you are fighting in your own defense "I would never purchase a horse like that" well go look through your website once! Each and every one of you really...it is a shame...

i'm done posting on this thread (maybe)...had my feelings turned upside down and now a program I thought so highly of, that I worked so hard on, I see most of you just assume to be dwarfs so...thanks, I appreciate all the criticism against my horses when you should really be taking a harder look at your own. If I could, I would go through each of your websites and post pictures of your horses and ask you to look a second time.

Eesh...I feel like i'm still working with a bunch of children...and I really hate children! You all might feel the same with me but well...flame on! I doubt i'll be back to read it. God this place frustrates me more and more as time goes on, and each time I try to give this place another try, to forgive those who have put me down before well it is one gigantic circle isn't it.

Bjpurpur - I do want to thank you, you've been very sincere one on this thread with your reply!


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## Crabby-Chicken (Oct 27, 2007)

MiniHoofBeats,,,,

I am sorry you feel that way. I don't think anyone is attacking you. Most of us are changing our breeding programs all the time. That is the only way to learn and grow. I have a mare right now that has a couple dwarfism qualities. I am deciding right now what will be her path in life. The gene is there in miniature horses. Yes it had sometime in the past been bred intentionally for small size, cuteness. But in breeding, there is NOTHING as heartbreaking as getting a foal that will be born to pain and suffering and we have to watch that suffering. I want to try and avoid that. I know you do too. That is why I really liked this thread you started so we can learn.


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## Dona (Oct 27, 2007)

Steph.....I'm really sorry you feel this way.



:

But, you HAD to know that when you posted a picture here for critique....you would get LOTS of opinions, and there will be some that you don't agree with. :no:

I don't think that anyone is truly trying to make you feel bad. They are giving their honest opinions.

You take those, for what they are worth to you, and either learn by them.....or not.

I think this has been a very educational thread....especially for newbies who didn't understand the whole "dish" concept. It has opened up a lot of discussion & I think has probably been an eye-opener for many to look for certain traits in their own herds



:


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## nootka (Oct 27, 2007)

I don't even post all that often these days, and I HATE spotlights.

What I hate most of all, though, is unnecessary suffering. I would hate to hear or have your little mare die or lose her foal because it was badly deformed (and it may not be, there is a CHANCE that her foal will not inherit dwarfism, there are full-blown very badly deformed dwarfs who have normal offspring) and I know you would feel terrible, as well, as I know that you care for your horses.

Proportions are hugely important. Short leg length is a sign of dwarfism, and I KNOW that noone thinks that dwarf minis should be intentionally bred for, dachsunds are no example.

I am sorry your feelings are hurt. I honestly hope that the feelings of many would help you take another look at what you're seeing, for your own as well as your mare's sakes.

I never intended to hurt your feelings, it makes me feel badly, not good like you are implying.

You said the pictures may be off, but these are "pro" pictures and ones that you agree or have said make her look beautiful. Yes, she's "cute" but also is a minimally afflicted dwarf from the photos that I have seen. I don't know how she has a straight bite, with the profile she has, but I'm glad that she does. Her head is very oddly shaped, and I see many out there with odd shaped heads, but in combination with her short legs and very long back, it is something that should give any conscientious breeder pause before using her. We are ALL faced with these decisions, and it's not easy.

Good luck to you....

Liz


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## nootka (Oct 27, 2007)

> What breaks my heart most is that EVERYONE missed the point of this thread and took it over as their own. I am tired of greedy, spotlight hungry members...sorry there it is, there's the truth. There are those among us who specifically specialize on certain traits, and we need to understand that because miniatures are evolving, ever changing, it has to be accepted that just because certain features are bred for DOES NOT MEAN it is any longer a characteristic. Look at weiner dogs, (dachsunds) sure they can be called midget or dwarf but...the point is, their short legs are bred to be short...and they aren't criticized or chastised for that. Who's to say just because one person really wants to breed for small, tippy ears, that "oh that's a dwarf characteristic, you're breeding dwarfs. Even though the rest of the horse looks great those small ears make it a dwarf!" Insane how some things aren't accepted...


Are you saying that you are breeding for weiner-dog like horses? I am curious which trait it is that you are breeding for that it is ok to produce more dwarf horses? THAT is what I'm trying to say is likely with your mare's conformation.

She may be the color and the pattern you want, but do you want it on a badly-deformed dwarf? Domed heads are NOT being bred for. You missed the point.

Yes, some foals have domed heads, but they grow out of it for the most part. The forehead between the eyes does have a small mound, but it is not higher up like your mare's, the ones that are, are likely suffering from dental misalignments caused by badly formed jaws due to dwarfism. This has been my experience, observation from nearly 20 years of observation. I've only had minis for 12 and it is NOT a business for me, merely a hobby in which I hope to do the best possibly by my horses as well as anyone that does purchase one from me. I do ok in the show ring, and I have compliments from people I consider to be well-versed in horse conformation.

You will find hundreds of people to adore your little mare, and I know you already have. If you notice, there have been many that have been silent on your posts about her, as they are not really allowed to say how they feel, and noone wants to hurt your feelings. I am sorry if the photos make her look more like something she may not be, but I don't think that a horse has ever had such bad luck in photos. It is what it is, even Miss Kentucky has bad hair days, but I've never seen a photo of her that makes her look so off in her proportions.

Even those who breed for tiny have an obligation to seek out the best proportions and shapes. MORE so, because smaller often comes with it dwarfism.

Good luck,

Liz


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 27, 2007)

Yah I guess I just can't stay away sometimes...

Liz, you do realize i'm not talking of my appy mare when i'm speaking of my dippers duffy mare who is in foal...different mare completely but I feel from your description you think my appy mare is in foal? I have been waiting on her deciding what I really want do to with her...much like Crabby Chicken said in her post with one of her mares.

Again I will say, to each their own! You say my appy mares head is "very oddly shaped" whereas I think heads like hers are very attractive! Of course, I will not seek out heads like hers with bodies of dwarfs but, when I see a head like hers it makes me melt...I truly love her features, everything about her. But you see...the type of head that YOU like, I might consider to be really ugly. It's all a matter of personal opinion. Lets just leave it at that.

"Are you saying that you are breeding for weiner-dog like horses? I am curious which trait it is that you are breeding for that it is ok to produce more dwarf horses? THAT is what I'm trying to say is likely with your mare's conformation."

NO I am not breeding for weiner dog horses! That is an outstanding accusition no matter how sarcastic. I am very well aware of dwarf characteristics, i'm very well aware of the outcome of a dwarf being born and NO that is not what I want. Very rude of you to put it that way. Liz...take a look at the adult mini's posted on here, they STILL HAVE DOMES! I am not talking overly accentuated ones just like how they are born, that is obviously too too toooooo domed but dear god...open your eyes and take a look! SOME people do like them...some people do prefer them! Just because YOU don't doesn't make it WRONG and doesn't make the entire horse a DWARF. If the horse entirely has characteristics then duh we're not stupid. I'm not stupid.

I strive...and strive...to make it a point to everyone, all the time, that I am not on this earth focusing on breeding dwarfs...I am not Mr. Bond, I am not the Komokos line...I have standards just as much as everyone else and, I have dreams just like everyone else! I don't understand why it is that just because myself and others (I am not alone on this) like certain looks, that I get put to blame and now my entire program is labelled? I don't know who set who out to ruin me and my hard efforts but it really is a shame!


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## Shari (Oct 27, 2007)

Now I have to say I do not like the direction many Arab breeders are going. I used to breed them in the 80's. Will have to scan my favorite geldings picture but he is what I call classic.

Maar Khaliq was his sire and handled him for a few breedings...he was such a polite stallion. He is what I concide a classic Arab.

The next was a dark bay colt by *Ibn Moniet El Nefous named Maar Khaliq who eventually became the senior herd sire for Mubazir Arabians in Valley Center, California who bred many incredibly beautiful and athletic Straight Egyptian horses

This is a picture of Maar Khaliq.. not the best...






His sire






Maar Ree as an grand very elder lady






Needless to say... I would not want mini's to even try to go to the extreme's some other Arab lines are going.

And what Carol has said is very correct,,, to what the term "Dish" means.

Every mini I have seen in person with a bluge on the forehead has some level of Dwarfizum.

I prefer my mini's with those lovely little pony faces and fox ears. No extremes one way or another.


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## mininik (Oct 27, 2007)

This isn't about one picture of your mares heads and differing opinions on if they're pretty or not. There are more pictures and even video on your website. I have looked at it all as well as the information on their lineage that is provided. In my opinion, neither of your mares has good, basic conformation. There are other obvious signs of dwarfism, even if they are not dwarves. I have nothing to gain by posting my honest opinion. You will remember that YOU started in this thread as it related to your mares and your vet's opinion on dwarfism.


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## MiniHoofBeats (Oct 27, 2007)

mininik said:


> This isn't about one picture of your mares heads and differing opinions on if they're pretty or not. There are more pictures and even video on your website. I have looked at it all as well as the information on their lineage that is provided. In my opinion, neither of your mares has good, basic conformation. There are other obvious signs of dwarfism. I have nothing to gain by posting my honest opinion. You will remember that YOU started in this thread as it related to your mares and your vets opinion on dwarfism.


No...  I did NOT start this thread on MY mares. People took it in that direction, sadly. Shows me really how uppity you can be, to think your program is so perfect that you can cut others down. I am not one to stoop to that level to go through others websites and then publicly post my opinions. This all just makes me want to cry...how heartless and cruel you can be.

JUST STOP! EVERYONE JUST STOP CUTTING ME DOWN!!! MY FEELINGS ARE CRUSHED! MY DREAMS ARE CRUSHED!!! I CAN'T BELIEVE I CAME BACK HERE THINKING FRIENDS COULD BE MADE AGAIN!

JUST LEAVE ME ALONE!

I'm out of here.


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## nootka (Oct 27, 2007)

No, I meant the other mare, though I removed some of what I said. The other mare is awfully small, you know, and her proportions could cause issues. I have not really looked that closely at the stallion she's bred to, but I know you have. I hope the foal is just fine and has nice, long legs, short back, and the head you love, and all is perfect.

Head shape is NOTHING to get upset about. I have horses that I don't like their heads, but if all else is good, I am fine. I can find a stallion with a pretty head (like Crabby Chicken's stallion) and fix it up nice.

Hopefully.

My black mare has the nicest head in my herd, though it IS a bit longer than I might like and she has like NO chin, and yes, there is a small rise from where it begins next to her eyes to the center, but it is all in the right places, her nose is not turned up as a dwarf and she has no other odd characteristics.

Many people do prefer dwarfs, hence the big market for them. There is a link to someone on your page that intentionally breeds them that is from this state. She says she gets more for them than the average foal, and having been to her farm, I know that she does breed dwarfs as dozens of them there with foals at side (most of whom have dwarf foals nursing) would be the evidence. She goes for a certain color and eye color, though, so what you see is what you get.

Noone is trying to say they are better than you, what we are trying to do is help you see something that might be very bad for you and for your horses before it happens.

I am sorry I stated it rudely, but bringing up the dachsunds made me wonder since your bay appy mare does have a little of the build like that, I thought maybe you were happy with her proportions.

As I said, best wishes in your journey, it takes a lot of time to learn things and the lessons hurt. I personally, hope they don't.

Liz


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## Katiean (Oct 27, 2007)

I too would like to see a standard. Even by size. In poodles they have a standard. Toy, Mini and Standard. Each has a size defining range. But, they have a standard of what a poodle looks like. I have read ads for mini horses that read Quater type, Arab type, Draft type, Looks like a Gypsy Vanner etc...The only thing all of these horses have in common is size. We do need a standard so we can all breed the same "Type" of horse. That way we can all compeat against each other with out a judges type preference coming into play. I do realize that usually there is more than one judge but I have see a fifth place horse take a first in the same class. Different breeds of cattle have a standard, Other breeds of horses have a standard, so do Dogs, cats, rabbits, goats and any other pure bred animal registration. I know in the rabbit "Standard of Perfection" book there are pictures of each breed (some even down to pattern). AKC has a Standards book with pictures of the different breeds of dogs. We too need a Standards book even if they seperate the different "Types" of minis. JMO


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## Kendra (Oct 27, 2007)

Katiean said:


> We too need a Standards book even if they seperate the different "Types" of minis. JMO


I think we do our breed a dis-service by splitting the different types. Seems to me the AMHA standard recognised the two main "types" of refined and stock-type, and called for a blending of the two to create a well-balance, correct horse.


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## Cathy_H (Oct 27, 2007)

> I am deeply, deeply disappointed in a lot of you.... I have been overly excited ..................and now after so many compliments on her and comments and yadda yadda, now people say she has dwarf characteristics? Breaks my heart


............... I've been making this statement since almost the beginning of this forum........"This is the nature of a public forum"..... We will not always receive positive comments................ A persons opinion is based upon what he has to relate to......... I think Lee & I have nice horses but I would never put one of mine on here as an example, as I know someone somewhere will find a fault. I may not agree with them but it is their opinion, & yes we know sometimes opinions are given out of ignorance, not knowing & even jealously............................. I feel for those who get their feelings hurt but to be honest, at least one horse posted on this thread - if I had to choose between that one & a horse with a straight face, I would have to go with the latter ( even though I prefer a dip).......................... Perhaps these people feel that their horse does have a dish face because they were told so etc, etc. In the process of giving differing opinions & educating, hurt feelings will occur................................... I wasn't too happy years ago when we realized we had the "old style " of minis & had to rethink our goals if we were going to stay competitive in the show ring & sales market....... How did we realize that? - - by seeing & hearing & some of those things were not always positive & I didn't care to hear it either.................... Edited - to the person who started this thread - perhaps someone might email you pictures to use.


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## mininik (Oct 27, 2007)

Actually, I am an armchair breeder, of sorts. My program consists of one Shetland gelding (with a slightly convex profile), BUT I have been involved with these little horses for close to 10 years now. I have seen a lot in that time as I have been closely involved in several breeders programs, enough to learn from

their experiences and mistakes and be able to see what I do and do not like in a horse. For a while I stepped away from Minis and when I came back it was shocking just how obvious some of the poor conformation and dwarfism traits can be that are either overlooked or ignored within the breed, regardless of "type." My point is not to inflate my ego or cut you down with my comments. I did not go searching for a horse to rip apart and publicly ridicule. Fact is, you did post this thread asking for opinions and there are differing opinions on everything out there. You can either learn from the information here... or not.


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## slv (Oct 27, 2007)

I have read this entire thread with much interest. I think we can all learn things from this forum. I hate it that some folks get their feelings hurt but do believe that most people that post do not intend to hurt feelings but merely to inform others of some knowledge that they have obtained.

Having said that, I know I just may be shot down like a rocket here, but after seeing the mares head shot and visiting the web page, I would have no doubts about the mare carrying the dwarf gene.

Probably no one really wants to say it and maybe I shouldn't but her sire had severe dwarf tendancies. For those that never actually got to see him in person, he has extremely clubbed feet in the back. So badly that they bend over and he walks on the pasturns. He also has other dwarf characteristics as well. I personally would not want to breed that line. JMO......

This probably all belongs on another post about people just seeing color or spots or whatever.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Oct 27, 2007)

It's time to stop.

Please! Just stop and pretend like this thread is locked or deleted.

Please!! :no:


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 27, 2007)

I have followed this thread with interest, as I always do when truly serious discussions occur here.

Some observations--I was amazed at some of the perceptions of what constitutes a 'dish'--in LONG years with horses, and a compelling interest in quite a variety of breeds, I never heard of any definition other than that a 'dished faced' horse has a concavity of profile! Nor is the 'dish' in any way 'connected' to the configuration of the horse's forehead--two different things, absolutely! I believe there is are 'proper' and improper', locations for the 'dish' to occur; I have seen photos posted here of both! (For instance--I do NOT care for the 'dish' to be between or very nearly between the eyes, believe that to be 'improper', at the very least from a standpoint of appearance, and would conceed that *perhaps* this could be an indicator of a genetic tendency toward dwarfism??-though I know of no proof that this is the case! I have seen photos here of heads that I consider 'strange', and of at least one horse with a pretty head, but other visible conformational features that I would consider fairly serious flaws. That said,and frankly admitting that there is likely NO ONE here who can be more seriously critical in evalution of aspects of conformation than I, I also believe that we should try to be cautious about stating presumptions that may go 'beyond' the limitations of a single photo that shows basically only a single aspect of a horse.

I have seen Shah Jehan, a number of times-his owner was an acquaintance from the 'early' Estes Park show days! I always found his head, 'in person', to be rather ODD looking, and can verify that he indeed did NOT possess a "teacup" muzzle. He was, in fact, one of the first I have seen that had the odd characteristics of ears sort of 'set back' behind a 'prominent' forehead, a bit more on the side than the 'top' of his head---I know--it is hard to describe, but "I knows it when I sees it"--and I must say, I have seen more of this kind of thing since, and still. Perhaps it IS 'being bred for'--but NOT by me!! I do know that Shah Jehan was 'thought to be' and described as being--'Araby' in looks, but again, NOT by me! I would also like to see more photos of "Ameigo"( apologies, but I always thought he had that name just because someone didn't know how to spell "Amigo"!)--with all due respect to his current owner(and I know there is a 'back story' for him, and that Bess was his 'saviour',as it were--bless her for so doing!)I always thought he was also a bit 'extreme' in appearance--at least, in that widely-seen photo of him--and have always wished to see 'more' of him to be able to know how accurate my impressions were...)

I certainly believe that a 'dish' doth NOT an 'Arabian' look make--even when it IS a properly postitioned 'dish'! That said, I do like the look of a properly-positioned/proportioned 'dish'--(In more recent times, even many QH lines have come to show 'dished' heads-and such are also not uncommon in other breeds, such as Welsh ponies...)-- in the face of a horse that ALSO has other correct components! For me, ideally, those include: well-set, proportionate, shapely ears(but I don't require that the tips point at each other...!), a broad flat forehead, large widely-set, liquid eyes with a kind expression, a slight dish located a moderate and PROPORTIONATE distance BELOW the eyes, and without a convex profile from the 'dish' on down, big, open,wide-set nostrils,a short mouth, bite in line, lips in line AND 'tight', well-defined('chiseled, if you will) bone structure, and a reasonably developed jowl, so that the head has somewhat of a triangular shape.(I could go into even greater detail, but won't-takes too much time and space!!) Some things I DON'T like are: 'cigarette heads"(seen frequently in minis), lingering tooth bumps(often unavoidable in minis, at least for a few years--but really shouldn't persist throughout their life,given proper and timely dental care, IMO...), a profile that sort of 'drops off' at the muzzle(again, fairly common in minis, in my observation-and one which can be somewhat "countered' by good open well-placed nostrils), "pig' eyes, and oddly-placed and/or 'coarse'(shapeless, in effect), or too large, or too small, ears. I also do NOT like to see a forehead bulge in adult miniatures--period: I have seen horses I thought quite nice otherwise who had heads that would forever disqualify them from MY consideration, because of this very feature.

I'd like to comment on other aspects of this thread-like the Std. of Perfection--but this is long enough, so that'll have to wait for another time!

Margo


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