# AMHR / ASPC regsitered horses



## muffntuf (Jan 7, 2008)

There is a rule in the AMHR / ASPC rule book that I puzzle over - on page 234 It states cross entering between ASPC and AMHR is not allowed at the same shows.

does anyone have any history on this rule? there are so many double registered horses now - is this an obsolete rule?


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## disneyhorse (Jan 7, 2008)

No, you can not cross-enter your horse at the same show. You must choose to exhibit the horse as a Miniature OR as a Shetland. You can not show in both types of classes at the same show.

Generally people with ASPC/AMHR double-registered horses choose which division it will be most competitive in. The smaller ones are generally more competitive as Minis, and the taller ones as Shetlands... but some people promote their horses as both during the year, just choosing one or the other at different shows, and then showing them at Congress and again at Nationals.

I'm not sure why you CAN'T show them as both though, it could only bring more show fees for shows






Andrea


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## muffntuf (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks Andrea - I know you can't. I am looking for history and clarification. I have a lot of people at the show I work at who are starting to ask why. That's why i am asking.


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## Leeana (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi,

Yes like Andrea said if you have an AMHR/ASPC horse you can only show it as an AMHR or an ASPC, not in the same at one show even though most shows offer both amhr/aspc classes.

Same with the ponies, if you are showing a horse as a foundation at a show you cannot then put it in the classic division at the same show, unless of course none of the classes offer foundation (ex. Classic Liberty, there is not foundation liberty, Classic Jumper/Hunter ..there is no class for the foundation jumper/hunter).


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## muffntuf (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks Leeana, but again - i am looking for history and clarification as to why we can't. The horse has two separate registrations with different reg numbers. So why can't they?


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## txminipinto (Jan 7, 2008)

I believe its a fairness issue.


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## muffntuf (Jan 7, 2008)

Why do you think it is a fairness issue?


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## txminipinto (Jan 7, 2008)

It's consider not fair to be judged twice in the same type of class. It would look unfair if the horse won as a mini and then turned around and won as a shetland.


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## Karen S (Jan 7, 2008)

Hi Muffntuff,

This rule was vote on back at the 1999 Convention. Back when the double registered horses were first being introduced into the show ring. Yes, it was a fairness issue and most of those that were most unhappy were the miniature exhibitors. Yes, it would bring in more revenue for the shows and clubs, but the issue was that horse being shown twice under the same set of judges and winning.

Even though they hold both sets of registration papers they must declare which way for each show they plan on showing. As a miniature you have to show under four judges at two seperate shows to participate at Mini Nationals, as a Shetland we don't have to qualify to show as Congress as our numbers aren't as large as the miniatures.

Hope this helps with this piece of history.

Karen


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## muffntuf (Jan 7, 2008)

Thanks Karen. Is the exhibitor community still feeling this way now that there are so many doubled horses?


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## Lewella (Jan 7, 2008)

I would think it would be even more of a fairness issue now that there are more ASPC/AMHR animals showing than ever before.

Hey Karen....

Wasn't there something on the agenda at the Buffalo convention about not allowing cross entering even into non-rated classes (ie. Futurities)?


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## Karen S (Jan 8, 2008)

Good Morning,

Yes even more now as Lewella has stated. I hear it (and read here on the mini side of this very chat group) that the Miniature people hate to compete against the small shetlands. They are here to stay and gaining popularity.

Lewella, I would have to go find my notes on that one about the futuries as I don't remember right off hand.

Thanks.

Karen


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## muffntuf (Jan 8, 2008)

Thanks Karen,

but here is the deal, its the miniature people who are asking me! But I don't know all these people were around when the rule was voted in or went into effect. I passed the miniature post onto them and advised that they need to contact their area directors or make a proposal for a rule change.


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## Boinky (Jan 8, 2008)

I guess what i don't get is how this rule changes the facts that Mini shetlands are going to show against mini's.. it's going to happen no matter how much mini people scream. They are growing more and more popular and they are still mini's any way you cut it.

I guess i Don't see how showing as a whole different "breed" really conflicts with showing in the mini division too..but that's just me. I do hear the frustration with people though as there are very very few AMHR show's and even fewer ASPC show's up here in the north east and those at are, are usually combined with AMHR show's..not much to pick and choose which horse show's in which division.


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## muffntuf (Jan 8, 2008)

I think the reasoning on fairness has to do with minis and shetlands competing against each other. If a horse wins under the judges in the miniature B Halter class and then enters the Foundation or Classic Shetland under halter class and wins under the same judges, exhibitors see this as their horses not getting a fair chance in that class. The issue to my understanding is being judged by the same judges for both shetland and miniatures.


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## Lewella (Jan 8, 2008)

No, it doesn't have anything to do with minis and Shetlands competing against each other - that happens in AMHR classes with ASPC/AMHR animals all the time and has for as long as there has been an AMHR (dual registration is far from a new thing!)

The issue *is* that the same judges are judging BOTH breeds at the same show. Judges are human - they are going to remember a horse from an earlier class in the other breed. This isn't fair to the person exhibiting that horse (especially if the judge didn't like the horse, or it acted up, etc.). It isn't fair to the exhibitor that isn't showing a dual registered animal - he's going to have to be twice as good to get that judges eye when put up against an animal that had a spectacular showing earlier.

To me, this is no different than the fact that you cannot show in different ASPC divisions with the same horse at the same show. Say I have a Foundation Certified Modern that makes Foundation height. I could in theory show it in all FOUR Shetland divisions - it qualifies for all of them in pedigree and height. Let's say this is a great animal - tons of eye appeal, great ring presence, and I have the skill and it has the training to either rev up or go easy to show in all four divisions. Would it be fair to the other exhibitors for me to show that pony Modern and then turn around and show it again under the same judge in Modern Pleasure, again in Classic and again in Foundation? Heck No! Would it save me money at shows? Sure - but just because it would save me money doesn't make it fair.


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## Karen S (Jan 9, 2008)

Lewella,

In my notes regarding the Futuries...If a double registered animal is Futurity nominated in the ASPC and AMHR it can show in both Futuries as they do hold two sets of registration papers and the Futuries are based on the breeding programs.

Karen


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## Boinky (Jan 14, 2008)

Ok not trying to dredge this out..but now that i've had time to think about it.. i do have another question. Why would cross entering from shetland classes be considered any different than cross entering from an Ammy class to an Open class? That judge (well at local AMHR show level) would be seeing that particular horse before entering an open class which could also give it an unfair advantage right? just curious about all this... sorry if i'm sounding stupid.


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## muffntuf (Jan 14, 2008)

It's not a silly question, but there is a difference there - the judges can see an AMHR horse in 3 classes in a row - open, ammy, and youth, correct? But it is staying in the AMHR division. if you re-read lewella's post - it makes more sense, although not 100% sure if i agree.


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## Boinky (Jan 14, 2008)

I guess i understand what she's saying but i don't understand truly how it's different. the judge is still seeing those horses that go Youth/Ammy and then Open twice or more times. they still seeing that horse act up or show really well or whatnot. Theoretically a judge should be able to be open minded enough to be able to judge between shetland standards and mini standards.. i mean i know theory isn't always possible..but i'm TRULY not getting what the problem is. I could certainly see, for example, showing a modern against a differen't "type" as they are very different than say a classic and way different than many miniatures... I'm just very confused by this i guess.


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## Lewella (Jan 14, 2008)

Entering Ammy and Open isn't technically cross entering because you are within the same division. Yes, almost all Ammy horses are going to show in Open also but unless they are the same age they may not ever go directly against each other in Open. Plus most judges judge Ammy a little differently than they do Open. For example some judges will overlook certain bad manners in an Open class but will knock a horse downfor the same behaviour in an Ammy class.

Some shows are choosing to offer Amateur and Youth halter as the first classes of a group so the judge hasn't seen the horse handled by a trainer before with the thought being that this will level the playing field a little more for the Amateur exhibitor.


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## EquestraDreams (Jan 17, 2008)

Wouldn't it address the issue if there was a separate judge(s) for the shetland divisions at a show that has classes for both shetlands and miniatures? That way a double registered horse would be showing under different judges in each division. If that was allowed we'd most likely see an increase in the number of shetland entries at shows, plus the shows would be bringing in additional money. Then the only problem would be that the shows would have to hire "extra" judges....


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## muffntuf (Jan 17, 2008)

It would address the issue, but you would have to get the rule modified to reflect that. And maybe it should be suggested. Or you would have to run miniature classes one day and shetland classes the next day and then have a different set of judges. Then you wouldn't have the extra money in the show, you would spend it on officials.


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## Boinky (Jan 17, 2008)

I agree with equestrian dreams. the only ASPC shetland show we have "around here" (if yu can call 10 hours around here) is the Area show which is usually in New York.... basically that is nothing in New england or even quite a ways further down! I missed last years but the year before there were like litterally 3 shetlands.. I'd show my own mini shetland if you could cross enter and i'm sure others would too. It would mean as she said more shetlands/larger classes as well as more money for the show.

I think the extra judge idea is a good one although could cost more as she said. It would make sence to me if they changed the rule if it said something like "may cross AMHR/ASPC classes if the show has seperate judges" or something to that effect.


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## muffntuf (Jan 17, 2008)

In mid america (Iowa, Illinois, Ohio, PA) there is a good strength of ponies. In MN we are seeing a surge in population for shetlands. But seems to be more on the foundation and classic side. Modern Pleasure and Moderns seem to be more east coastish - hopefully that will change in the near future though!


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## Boinky (Jan 17, 2008)

LOL what part of the east coast? are you talking like VA, and down area or am I missing show's and stuff??


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## muffntuf (Jan 17, 2008)

More around Ohio, Pennsylvania, Michigan, Kentucky.


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## ctinsley (Jan 17, 2008)

I think if something like that could be worked out it would be great. All we show anymore are the ASPC/AMHR horses and I would be happy to cross enter then at shows, with the price of fuel, motels, food always rising, might help alot of people out.


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## Yaddax3 (Jan 17, 2008)

> All we show anymore are the ASPC/AMHR horses and I would be happy to cross enter then at shows, with the price of fuel, motels, food always rising, might help alot of people out.


ASPC/AMHR needs to get ahead of the curve on this issue. The rising costs of fuel and other things associated to showing will impact shows as much as exhibitors. I fear we will see fewer and fewer shows in the years ahead.

Allowing double-registered horses to show in AMHR and ASPC shows on the same weekend would be an incentive to attend a show as well as contribute more money into the coffers of the clubs and people putting on the shows.

Besides more money going to shows and ASPC/AMHR, having more exhibitors and Ponies in more classes is a good thing. At least I think it is. Don't Pony exhibitors find it boring and/or unfulfilling to be entered in classes with only their horse and maybe one other one in it? That seems to happen quite a bit -- at least at shows I've attended.


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## Lisa Strass (Jan 17, 2008)

I might be the voice of a different drummer, but even if cross-entering was allowed, I am one that probably wouldn't do it.


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## Erica (Jan 17, 2008)

> I might be the voice of a different drummer, but even if cross-entering was allowed, I am one that probably wouldn't do it.


I'm with you Lisa....

Now I can see myself showing a horse at congres and Nationals, if I wanted to..........but I think at the rated shows horses I take (even if the option were allowed) would either be a mini or a shetland at that show.


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## Boinky (Jan 17, 2008)

The two of you that wouldn't cross enter still, may i ask why not? Is it because you have too much to do to get ready for one or the other class or is there more to it?


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## Lisa Strass (Jan 17, 2008)

There are three things that kind to the front of my mind for not cross entering:

~Facials: Facials (razoring) are pretty standard in our area for the minis, but not allowed on the Shetlands (which I'm happy about!)

~Most of the local shows group the halter classes by sex, so the class order might be something like... Mini Stallions, Under; Mini Stallions, Over; and then Foundation Stallions, Classic Stallions; Modern Pleasure Stallions; Modern Stallions. If I show my horse as a Mini and then turn around and show him as a Classic, that can be a lot of classes in a row... Ammy, Open, Jr or Sr. Championship, Grand and then repeat for the other division. I like the halter horses to stay "fresh", and with that many classes, it is hard to keep them that way. In my example, the Over Minis and Classics could be moved father apart, but then it might be an hour or more before they go again. I guess I just like to take them out, get them fancied up, have them do their thing, give them a pat and tell them they're a good horse, and put them away. Just my personal preference.

~I've had a couple of horses show both as Shetlands and as minis (at different shows plus Congress and Nationals). In my limited experience, I've had more success showing the horses in the height category that fits them best.

I'm not saying I'd never cross enter at a show, but it is pretty unlikely that I would.

Edited for typo!


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## SweetOpal (Jan 17, 2008)

I am with Lisa and Erica on this one. My reasons may be somewhat different. For one, I truly beleive that thier is a difference in a mini and shetland, now I do agree that Shetlands can be minis becuase of height, so I would show that horse as a mini,(before flaming, there are a few that have done well as both). But honestly with my horses, I don't feel that my minis would be competitive as classics, that is why I have shown them as minis. I try and stay true to the type. I have several who have been National Champions at the mini nationals, and even National Grand. I did show the stallion locally in Classic after he HOF'ed, and he did win, even won the Champion of Champions as a classic at our area show, however, given the chance I would show him as a mini and I would not ever take him to Congress as I just don't think he fits what a Classic Shetland is.

To me I just don't feel that people know what TYPE means or just don't care and are too worried about HOF, what does HOF mean if you never showed against a horse except for the 2-3 shows you had competition to get the grands??

Yes it can get boring to show by yourself as someone else stated, but at our Area show there were more classics than minis entered. And I kind of think of local shows as practice for the big guns like Congress! There are other reasons for lack of entries for Shetlands at local shows and I think that comes from the fact we don't have to qualify a shetland to go to Congress.

Again these are just my feelings! And how I personally see it. There are always different views and opinions as others have stated.

As for adding a seperate judge, that would be a good idea, but unless you have a great turnout probably not going to pay for itself. A judge flown into our area that is Shetland carded cost us right around $ 1,000 for a one day show, and you would most likely add on another $ 500 for a second day with fees, food, and hotel. So how many horses are you going to have cross entering to add on $1,500 to your income....just food for thought on that one.


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## Erica (Jan 17, 2008)

Yep Jen my reasons combine yours and Lisa's......

After traveling 6-10 hrs to a show (normal for me in AR) to get to the TX, OK, MO, TN, KY shows...I do have two that are close.

If I take a horse out that does good I'm personally an ammy, and I have a cousin that's a youth, so we show the horse in youth, ammy, its "age" class, hopefully it's Jr or Sr championship and then hopefully it's Grand Championship and then possibly if the show has it Champion of Champions. That's a lot for a horse to "show" in, now yes I can lead a horse out there all I want but I want it to SHOW.

Now double those classes? for the same weekend, possibly the same day if they could cross enter under the same judges.......heck no.

Secondly, I believe there is a type as Jennifer said. While a good conformed horse is a good horse....there is still a miniature type and a classic type and a foundation type and modern type.

A Classic shetland can be a Foundation, a Foundation can be a Classic (as long as heigh permits and the partenage is ok)........A Modern Pleasure can be a Modern and a Modern can be a Modern Pleasure (as long as they are B papered); ALL fair and square on their papers right??

But we can't cross enter them, I mean you can't show your pony foundation, and then show it classic in the same show? They are two different "type" of horses.


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## txminipinto (Jan 17, 2008)

I agree with Lisa, Jennifer, and Erica as well. This year I have a double papered(actually tripled) shetland on my string that will be shown primarily as a mini and we're going to play in the shetland arena too. But I would not be interested in showing that particular horse twice in halter or performance under different divisions. They get tired and I get tired, plus I have 5-9 other horses that need my attention.


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## Leeana (Jan 17, 2008)

> SweetOpal Posted Today, 04:24 PM I am with Lisa and Erica on this one. My reasons may be somewhat different. For one, I truly beleive that thier is a difference in a mini and shetland, now I do agree that Shetlands can be minis becuase of height, so I would show that horse as a mini,(before flaming, there are a few that have done well as both). But honestly with my horses, I don't feel that my minis would be competitive as classics, that is why I have shown them as minis. I try and stay true to the type. I have several who have been National Champions at the mini nationals, and even National Grand. I did show the stallion locally in Classic after he HOF'ed, and he did win, even won the Champion of Champions as a classic at our area show, however, given the chance I would show him as a mini and I would not ever take him to Congress as I just don't think he fits what a Classic Shetland is.
> 
> To me I just don't feel that people know what TYPE means or just don't care and are too worried about HOF, what does HOF mean if you never showed against a horse except for the 2-3 shows you had competition to get the grands??
> 
> ...


Exactly, your first paragraph pretty much summed up my feelings on this issue and generally all together



. My first thought when reading this, especially with the new rule from convention being that a shetland cannot be rasored (i do not remember the exact words, but above the nose or muzzle one). Over here i dont think there is allot of rasoring in the minis, i would say there are more that do not rasor then those who do, but i know in some areas the razoring issue would keep most people from showing both.

Just because a horse holds two sets of papers does not mean it fits both types or breeds in this case. I think there are just some that show better as ponies and some that just show better as minis, you may have to toy around with it at a few shows. Also, time is a big issue im sure.


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## Lewella (Jan 17, 2008)

I agree with all the reasons listed by Andrea, Jennifer, Erica, Carin and Leanna!

Plus I think for some animals the two different styles of showing would get very confusing. Minis come in and work on an L pattern, ponies work the rail. Minis line up head to tail, ponies usually line up side by side, ponies work the rail. Shetlands are generally shown a little more stretched than is acceptable for minis. Shetlands can show halter with a whip, minis cannot. Shetlands can show with a tailer, minis cannot. Shetland stallions in all divisions can be shown with a bit and if I remember correctly mini stallions cannnot. That's a lot of differences!


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## MountainMeadows (Jan 18, 2008)

OK, voice of the uneducated here, but I have a question.

It is my understanding that the measuring standards for the ASPC ponies is different than the AMHR (ie, at the wither w/ the pony allowed to stretch, vs end of mane & standing square). So if this was the case a pony may end up being a couple of inches taller by ASPC standards - would the pony have to be measured as both ASPC as well as AMHR? What kind of "liability" would there be for an AMHR registered horse to be measured "over" (needlesstosay, this one is near & dear to my heart



)

Stacy


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## muffntuf (Jan 19, 2008)

They are measured differently and usually the mini horse is measured 1 1/2 - 2" shorter than the shetland measurement. So they really don't cross over there. If they are shown under their different registry numbers then they are good to go.


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