# Neck sweating...Isnt this cheating????



## slaneyrose (Feb 12, 2006)

Ok....I know I`m gonna get it in the neck for this one but........

This neck sweating business....It entails tightly binding something around a horses neck or throat so it must feel a bit like its being choked, the results are temporary and do change the neck a lot from examples I`ve see.....so dont you think this is tantamount to cheating as much as body dying etc???? When it comes to confirmation its being radically changed so you may chose to use/buy a horse after seeing it in the show ring but its genetically gonna produce something completely different....bit like cosmetic surgery????

I was looking at a site that sells neck and throat sweats and it warned blistering may occur if left on too long!!! Surely this proves its over the top??

Does anyone else feel this way???

Ok, you can start the stone throwing now!!


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 12, 2006)

slaneyrose said:


> ..It entails tightly binding something around a horses neck or throat so it must feel a bit like its being choked, the results are temporary and do change the neck a lot from examples I`ve see.....so dont you think this is tantamount to cheating as much as body dying etc???? When it comes to confirmation its being radically changed so you may chose to use/buy a horse after seeing it in the show ring but its genetically gonna produce something completely different....bit like cosmetic surgery????
> 
> I was looking at a site that sells neck and throat sweats and it warned blistering may occur if left on too long!!! Surely this proves its over the top??


First of all sweating should not make a horse feel choked. If a horse feels choked then the person does not know what they are doing. If a horse was choked he would eventually pass out. No doubt people need to learn how to do things properly as anything can hurt an animal if done without proper knowledge.

Second...neck sweating is not a permanent conf*O*rmational change. It does NOT alter confOrmation. It only sweats out the extra fluid in the neck or whatever you are sweating. If not done constantly the neck will go back exactly the way it was. It cannot even be remotely classified as "surgical alteration"!

And yes there are some products that will blister but there are some people that don't have good sense......just like products for humans.......thus the warnings. Some people don't know the difference between neoprene and fleece. One kind is made to work in the other is made to wear all the time.

If you know what you are doing you will not hurt the horse. Unfortunately there is a lot of "monkey see, monkey do"................

Added to say......when a person does not understand something they can get the wrong ideas or come to wrong conclusions about what is really happening. (perfect example..your remarks....a process you are obviously not familiarwith) There are many things that people find abusive or wrong only because it is a unknown to them and they really don't understand the principle behind it.


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## Jill (Feb 12, 2006)

If you feel like it's cheating, what about clipping, dying sunbleached manes, hoof black, heck, making them exercise more than they would "naturally" on their own?


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## CLC Stables (Feb 12, 2006)

Neoprene left on blisters...............most of us use LINED sweats that don't blister and wick the sweat away.


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## nootka (Feb 12, 2006)

I don't feel it's cheating. I pretty much assume that it is done w/most horses and I look past it.

You can't sweat the "ugly" out of a neck (i.e., one that is set in badly or shaped badly) so it is not a conformational change, rather a slight improvement on what's already nice.

I do it to a limited degree and I have not made a horse choke or pass out and my hands can always slide in alongside the sweat. I also don't start sweating til before a show, and sometimes not much more than a few days in advance.

I DID however burn a horse last year b/c he'd torn away the inner protective fleece lining and combined with high temps at the show (100 degrees+), so I did not check on him in the hours before his class and I made a mistake. I have learned from that mistake and luckily it was not super bad or blistering or anything, it just made him peel and act itchy. I feel awful about it, though.

Use your common sense, knowledge and ability to read and research something and then choose to either do or don't do it. There are winners on every level that do all of the "temporary modifcations" such as sweating, clipping, balding, hoof polish, etc., and then there are winners that do some of them, and even some that do none of them, so it's your choice for your situation, that's the beauty of a free country and freedom of choice.

There will be those that agree with you about the extremity, but I'm not alarmed a bit by it. I do however think it's too bad that there are horses that pretty much live in full sweats, but I rarely see that and the ones that do have sweats on for show purposes don't seem to mind a lot.

Liz M.


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## Minimor (Feb 12, 2006)

It's kind of a temporary enhancement & IMO not a whole lot different than the careful conditioning & dieting that show horses go through. Sure, it trims the neck/throat, but it's nothing like actual cosmetic surgery where some part of the horse is permanently altered, possibly to an extreme. Like Liz said, sweating doesn't change the basic conformation of the neck.

If you're "fooled" by a sweated neck, then you'll also be "fooled" by good conditioning & a horse that is slimmed down by diet--if you buy that wonderful looking horse & then take him home & turn him out to stand in the shade while he eats his face off....he's very soon going to look nothing like the horse you bought, it won't just be the sweated neck that is different!! :lol:

edited to add: If the neoprene sweats come with a warning about blistering if left on too long, that's a good thing as hopefully it will prevent a first time user--who doesn't know neoprene isn't to be left on 24/7--from hurting their horse.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 12, 2006)

Do all you flame throwers




feel you can tell a sweated neck from a non sweated one??? And I disagree that its the same as hoof polishing or clipping because its more like colour dying the body, Everybody clips so you can see the body underneath clearly and if they dont, you can see it, this neck sweating is changing the confirmation by a form of temporary liposuction, which is what I meant by cosmetic surgery (I obviously meant in a temp way).......I guess it is a bit like the extreme show diet thing (although a little silly to make out that if someone is not doing the show diet regime they are allowing the horse to "eat its head off") but where do we draw the line so you can see what that stallion or mare is going to pass on genetically if you have one of its offspring.....thats my point!

I have a mare which recently came to Ireland from U.S and she is beautiful.....BUT she has a VERY thick, fat crest and she is most certainly not overweight, but her crest wobbles when she trots and I wonder if this has been caused by human interference to make her look good in the show ring as i have never seen anything quite like it! If anyone can shed light on why this might be or have seen it before I`d love to hear from them. I didnt mean to offend anyone by the way......it just seems extreme to "resculpture" a horse to the extent of this temporary liposuction technique. JMO


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 12, 2006)

slaneyrose said:


> Do all you flame throwers
> 
> 
> 
> feel you can tell a sweated neck from a non sweated one??? , this neck sweating is changing the confirmation by a form of temporary liposuction, which is what I meant by cosmetic surgery (I obviously meant in a temp way


Good grief......I don't see anyone here flaming you at all. You are entitled to your opinion, but I must say that it's not a very educated one as liposuction is an invasive thing and sweating is not. You don't like it? Don't do it. But remember when a horse goes to a SHOW.......it's exactly that........a HORSE SHOW! You go looking your best. No different than an athlete or no different than a beauty pageant. An athlete would look pretty silly if he wasn't fit for his event and person would look pretty silly in a beauty pageant if they were not fit and groomed with great hair and proper make-up.



> I have a mare which recently came to Ireland from U.S and she is beautiful.....BUT she has a VERY thick, fat crest and she is most certainly not overweight, but her crest wobbles when she trots and I wonder if this has been caused by human interference to make her look good in the show ring as i have never seen anything quite like it! If anyone can shed light on why this might be or have seen it before I`d love to hear from them. I didnt mean to offend anyone by the way......it just seems extreme to "resculpture" a horse to the extent of this temporary liposuction technique. JMO


What you are talking about here (without actually seeing it) is a "broken crest". It has nothing to do with sweating.

And again, you cannot change change a bad neck to a good neck. I don't understand where you get the idea that you can make a silk purse out of a sows ear. Not going to happen. You are just getting your horse in the best possible condition in order to compete. And again, if you don't like it..........don't do it. But I certainly would not waste my time showing an animal that wasn't fit and groomed properly for the showring. But I guess it all depends on what your goals are..

And BTW........I don't think you have offended anyone either.


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## disneyhorse (Feb 12, 2006)

My horses aren't sweated, and I figure if they can place in the show ring against sweated horses, then more power to them!

Sometimes a horse's neck will get thicker with age... generally after 3-4 years for some reason they get a fatter neck (not really the geldings though) I think due to breeding and hormones.

That said, your mare may have a thyroid problem, it can affect neck thickness. Only your vet can determine for sure.

I don't think neck sweating does a HUGE amount to the neck, it's more for that "little extra edge" in the show ring... a short fat neck will always be a short, fat neck no matter HOW much you sweat it.

Andrea


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## Becky (Feb 12, 2006)

I don't have a problem with neck wraps that temporarily remove water (sweat) from a horses' neck. What I do have a problem with is invasive procedures such as electric accupuncture to reduce fat in necks as well as liposuction to remove fat. The pencil thin necks you see in the show ring here are likely the results of those procedures.

If you can't breed a horse with a good neck, surgically altering it is not going to genetically change the breed.

Your mare with the fat deposits in her neck could very likely be suffering from insulin resistance or Cushings. It likely has nothing to do with neck sweating.


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## Sue_C. (Feb 12, 2006)

> she has a VERY thick, fat crest and she is most certainly not overweight, but her crest wobbles when she trots and I wonder if this has been caused by human interference to make her look good in the show ring


Actually, what you discribe sounds like she _had _ been _too_ fat, and was later fitted-up. Had the neck _been_ sweated...this would likely NOT have happened. I don't think that sweating changes the _shape_ of the neck, per se, but it can _prevent _ a huge crest from developing.

I would be careful of a horse with this type of crest, as I have been told it might be more likely to founder.

All the jowl-sweating, or neck-sweating in the world is going to make a crappy neck change enough to make it look good, it is only useful as a tool to help enhance an already good neck. I find it no different than placing extra sheen on particular parts of the body; to help draw the eyes and help enhance muscle mass, etc...


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## Lauralee (Feb 12, 2006)

If you don't like neck sweating, ....then don't do it! And don't buy a horse that has been sweated if it bothers you that much.

See? Problem solved.



:


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## bfogg (Feb 12, 2006)

I also would get that mare checked for thyroid I know many of our minis do have that problem.

Good luck and I think it is always good to hear different peoples opinion on things!

This is a interesting thread thank you for starting it.

Bonnie


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 12, 2006)

Lauralee said:


> If you don't like neck sweating, ....then don't do it! And don't buy a horse that has been sweated if it bothers you that much.
> 
> See? Problem solved.
> 
> ...


:lol: Great answer Lauralee! :lol:


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## Jill (Feb 12, 2006)

You know what, if I really believed you and I thought neck sweating was a form of liposuction, even temporary, well tell me where to get a full body sweat for ME!


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## randy (Feb 12, 2006)

Vertical Limit said:


> Lauralee said:
> 
> 
> > If you don't like neck sweating, ....then don't do it! And don't buy a horse that has been sweated if it bothers you that much.
> ...



I dont like the horse sweating thing much either and I prob wouldnt buy a horse who had been sweated!

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.



:


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## Cathy_H (Feb 12, 2006)

It's not cheating any more than exercising the horse to get in shape or cutting back on hay to get the belly down............. We don't sweat the necks & our horses have always done fine in the show ring. May have beat one or two more at times if we did but I prefer not to have our horses necks wrapped like that............. Cheating is the neck surgery that is done to make the throat latch smaller. I always look at the pictures in the magazines now to see if I can tell. Sometimes you see a very slight indentation on the front of the neck.


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## [email protected] (Feb 12, 2006)

Neck sweating will remove excess water temporarily, and can clean up the look of a horse's throat latch/neck, but it won't correct a truly thick, cresty, short or low neck set.

Improperly using sweating agents can burn/blister a neck - why care needs to be given when using sweats. Most neck warmers or fleece lined neoprene just help tighten things up without altering the appearance greatly. There is a great difference from enhancing appearance to altering it permanently.

Halter classes are the equivelant of a beauty pageant. if Miss Connecticut came to the the Miss America contest without a bra, her legs unshaven and no makeup, well she might be gorgeous and extremely accomplished, but chances are she wouldn't win!


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## Sun Runner Stables (Feb 12, 2006)

I have got to agree with Jill (!!!! :lol: !!!!) Who always makes me laugh! Neck sweating would be akin to taking those dieratics (sp?) for people. It does Not changes the fact that (me for example) I am predisposed to be large busted and have 'saddle bags' it'll just reduce the excess water, It certianly won't change My conformation!

Also I use neck sweats to help keep clothing on. Putting on the larger neck wraps on loose will prevent the horses from reaching around and turning themselves naked.

My colt Dudley who you all have seen a Million times, has a teeny pencil thin neck. (Well heck a thin everything, he's just so teeny and refined the brat) The Only times he ever wears anything is before/at a show, and to keep clothes on... he's just naturally thin necked... Here's his ragged Liz pic that's also in my avatar, in case you can't tell from the grass belly, he was whipped out of the pasture that morning, clipped and bathed.



No sweating, no nothing... however, as he matures, if he got a thicker neck would I sweat? You betcha. It's not a flame thing, just an expression of opnions, though I have to agree with the beauty pagent thought, if you don't want to play the game, it's awfully hard to play with others!


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## slaneyrose (Feb 12, 2006)

_If you don't like neck sweating, ....then don't do it! And don't buy a horse that has been sweated if it bothers you that much._

See? Problem solved.

Wow...wasnt expecting such aggression....didnt you see the ???? at the end of my thread title???

_I dont like the horse sweating thing much either and I prob wouldnt buy a horse who had been sweated!_

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions.

Thank you Randy, was feeling a bit like a piece of charcoal there for a minute 

Thanks to Sue C, Bonnie and Cathy H for the helpful comments I was looking for. I`m a bit confused tho....I thought it was the underside of the neck that was sweated not the crest???? My mare has lost some weight since she came here as I wanted to loose the crest....so I will see about getting her thyroid checked. Wouldnt there be other symptoms if she had a thyroid problem tho??

And I`m appalled that some people actually DO have surgery done on their horses necks!!!! I have learnt SO MUCH since I joined here. Thanks everyone.......well, most of you!!


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 12, 2006)

Jill said:


> You know what, if I really believed you and I thought neck sweating was a form of liposuction, even temporary, well tell me where to get a full body sweat for ME!



Well slap me silly Jill! And here all this time I was saving up for liposuction when all I really have to do is strap a neck sweat around my posterior and POOF!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Off it goes! Well I guess I better get out to the barn and get "sweatin"!




:

And again, Slaney........nobody is flaming you at all! Just a difference of opinion.......but if I remember correctly you are the one that "asked" for the opinions?????? Sounded like you really wanted to learn something? Just because people add in a bit of humor you should not feel like a piece of charcoal.......... :lol:


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## Lauralee (Feb 12, 2006)

Actually in the title of your post you proposed that neck sweating was cheating.

Which it is not.

Even though the complete ins and outs of neck sweating have been laid out before you, that isn't going to make you approve it.

In which case I stand by my comment.

Why raise your blood pressure over a harmless neck sweat (and they ARE harmless in the right hands).

When you make statements such as Isnt this cheating???? you open yourself for lots of opinions.

It seems to me that you were not actually seeking information, but instead, seeking to stir a pot on a subject which your opinion is not changing.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Feb 12, 2006)

Jill said:


> You know what, if I really believed you and I thought neck sweating was a form of liposuction, even temporary, well tell me where to get a full body sweat for ME!


LOL Jill I have always thought the same thing


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## Charlotte (Feb 12, 2006)

Getting back to the question of this post....."isn't this cheating?" Well, I think it comes down to where do you....personally... draw the line. Do you want to not see horses with the inside of the ears clipped clean? Personally, I really don't like that...I'd prefer a neat ear, but not skinned out, but my horses sure would look scruffy compared to the others in the show ring. and there are so many other fitting and grooming practices that are in fashion it comes down to what are you willing to do.

Wearing a neck sweat is ok by me if it is done correctly. Remember, there is really no way to 'exercise' the neck so it is hard to take off a bit of excess flab there. a neck wrap and throatlatch sweat can help to trim this area up a bit, but does nothing to really change the shape of the neck.

Where I have a problem is the medical procedures such as electric accupuncture which is so popular now. Even some *amateurs* are doing this procedure! Now, this CAN drastically change the shape of a neck and yes, I call that CHEATING. What is going to happen when someone pays big bucks for that National/World Champion and he/she starts producing foals and they all have thick heavy necks? Talk about ruining the market for our breed! If new comers get the feeling that all the famous horses are 'man made' will they want to buy their first mini? I just wonder how much this kind of cheating for the sake of winning at shows is going to hurt us all in the long run.....but then again, maybe it will help the market for those of us whose horses are...'real'.

Charlotte


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## midnight star stables (Feb 12, 2006)

Charlotte said:


> Wearing a neck sweat is ok by me if it is done correctly. Remember, there is really no way to 'exercise' the neck so it is hard to take off a bit of excess flab there. a neck wrap and throatlatch sweat can help to trim this area up a bit, but does nothing to really change the shape of the neck.


Dido! My opinion 100%!!

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## Buckskin gal (Feb 12, 2006)

What will happen to all those foals that come from the lipo stallion will probably end up also having lipo done on them!



Some must think it is easier to lipo than to breed for that pretty neck. Yes it is nice to have the "real" thing rather than just give the appearance of it. Mary



Charlotte said:


> .
> 
> . What is going to happen when someone pays big bucks for that National/World Champion and he/she starts producing foals and they all have thick heavy necks? Talk about ruining the market for our breed! If new comers get the feeling that all the famous horses are 'man made' will they want to buy their first mini? I just wonder how much this kind of cheating for the sake of winning at shows is going to hurt us all in the long run.....but then again, maybe it will help the market for those of us whose horses are...'real'.
> 
> Charlotte


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 12, 2006)

Charlotte said:


> Where I have a problem is the medical procedures such as electric accupuncture which is so popular now.
> 
> Charlotte


Sorry, this is off topic.......topic being neck sweating and cheating.............BUT

Charlotte, or anyone else who KNOWS the answer to this question...........is accupuncture illegal according to your rule book? (AMHA? AMHR?)

If this is not an illegal procedure then where do you draw the line on that one as it is used to treat a variety of issues.

Is liposuction illegal according to your rulebook? I think it would be classified as surgical alterations? If people are surgically altering horses than something should be done. That is total misrepresentation of an animal.

Accupunture is very legal in most breeds that I know of.

Liposuction (Arabians) on the other hand is not and grounds for suspension.


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## Cathy_H (Feb 12, 2006)

_Where I have a problem is the medical procedures such as electric accupuncture which is so popular now. Even some amateurs are doing this procedure! Now, this CAN drastically change the shape of a neck and _

I have seen horses that have had the neck surgery procedure. Can someone tell me how & if you can tell the ones that have had liposuction/accupuncture? If & when I buy another horse I want to know I am getting "a natural " horse......... I have seen some pictures lately that I wonder about. I mean, how did we go from what I would pretty much call a "thick neck breed" to these thin necked horses without human intervention....... I know some of you have thinner necked horses naturally but I have a hard time believing so many horses acquired this look in such a short time.................... Don't want to sabotage this thread so feel free to start another one...................... So tell me, how can I and other buyers tell "what you see is what you get" ? Vet check?................................... Wanted to add - I don't know or care if it is or is not currently illegal........ What I care about is if the horse I am looking at to spend Lee's hard earned $$'s on is being misrepresented. My future foals depend a lot upon what the horse standing in front of me looks like.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 13, 2006)

I'm sorry, I agree that some of those replies felt pretty aggressive.

No, neck sweating is NOTHING like liposuction. Yes, in the right hands it is pretty harmless and doesn't seem to bug the horses. But this was still a great opportunity to discuss where one should draw the line in the ring and why. In that spirit I have deleted my further negative comments and will address some positive points that I found interesting.

Okay, first of all it seems like we're facing two different interpretations of what a halter class is. There's those like me who follow the traditional view that a halter class for any breed is where you determine who is the closest to the ideal and the best breeding stock. Hence, you want to present your horse to its best advantage but the best horse should win regardless of turnout. Then there's interpretation two, which has halter classes being a beauty pageant where no holds are barred unless they actually physically harm the horse or are clearly illegal. You can see how we got from view one to view two- it is only human nature to be attracted to flash and shine so horses that were REALLY well turned out won. So of course everyone starts focusing on the right halter and the perfect outfit, etc. And if your horse was a little faulty _here_ but you could hide it with a skillful clipping job or draping the tail just so, well of course you would. That's only natural too. And BOOM! Before you know it, it's a beauty pageant.



Charlotte said:


> Getting back to the question of this post....."isn't this cheating?" *Well, I think it comes down to where do you....personally... draw the line. * Do you want to not see horses with the inside of the ears clipped clean?
> ...Remember, there is really no way to 'exercise' the neck so it is hard to take off a bit of excess flab there.





Cathy_H said:


> It's not cheating any more than exercising the horse to get in shape or cutting back on hay to get the belly down...


I think it does come down to where you draw the line. To me it is not true that there is no way to exercise the neck. Are you kidding me? Dressage and proper riding/driving are ALL about developing the neck! Okay so that doesn't help you with showing your weanlings and your youngsters, but it sure should help that older stallion. And as for it not being any more cheating than exercise and diet I find myself disagreeing. No, I'm not saying sweating IS cheating. But sweating is what you do to get rid of what exercise and diet couldn't. It's that part of the body that apparently isn't just out of shape or fat. Hence, you are altering appearance beyond simply getting the horse in its own best condition.

For me personally, I draw the line with revealing vs. changing. Clipping out ears, using number 30 blades on the body, shaving the nose, none of those appeal to me for my own horses but they don't bug me because all you are doing is showing what is underneath the fur. Diet and exercise work to show the bone and muscle structure under the flab. But sweating is artificially making the neck look thinner and tighter than it would ever be on its own. Now if the horse was holding EXCESS water in his neck, like truly had swelling of some sort, then removing it would be returning him to his natural state. But normal water content is the way the horse is built and if I'm using the halter classes to judge who the best of the best is (view one of halter, remember) then I want the one who wins to do so because they naturally had a thinner neck and not because *at that moment* his had been sweated to be thinner than the natural horse next to him. I want to breed to the best horse, not the best turnout job.



Cathy_H said:


> I mean, how did we go from what I would pretty much call a "thick neck breed" to these thin necked horses without human intervention....... I know some of you have thinner necked horses naturally but I have a hard time believing so many horses acquired this look in such a short time......So tell me, how can I and other buyers tell "what you see is what you get" ?


Easy. Ban neck sweating so that you KNOW that what you see is what you get! That's my point and my only problem with sweating. How are we supposed to know which horses have natural nice necks so we can breed this trait into the next generation if we never see them with a natural neck?

Please remember this is just my opinion. I can see how an owner would want to sweat the neck of her stallion if it's the only thing keeping him from winning! I get it, I really do. But taking that long-run view of the breed it's not a good thing in the end. It does no harm to the individual but no help to the breeding industry in encouraging people to choose the best natural horse.

Respectfully,

Leia


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## Buckskin gal (Feb 13, 2006)

Liea, Our breed would only improve more if more breeders thought as you do :aktion033: :aktion033:

Very well said! Mary



hobbyhorse23 said:


> I'm sorry, I agree that some of those replies felt pretty aggressive.
> 
> No, neck sweating is NOTHING like liposuction. Yes, in the right hands it is pretty harmless and doesn't seem to bug the horses. But this was still a great opportunity to discuss where one should draw the line in the ring and why. In that spirit I have deleted my further negative comments and will address some positive points that I found interesting.
> 
> ...


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## slaneyrose (Feb 13, 2006)

_And not to buy a horse because it has seen a neck sweat? Remember, sweating a neck is not a permanent thing and you would be missing out on some nice horses. But oh well._

Rai

I never said I wouldnt buy a horse that had been neck sweated.....besides.....how could I tell until it wore off (however long that takes)

Hobbyhorse23, Thank you so much for your comments, after all that has been said this post is the one that I agree with......and for Vertical Limit and any of you others that have slammed me.....I am not from america, and over here Neck sweating isnt done, in fact I never even new what it was until about 3wks ago so please dont accuse me of trying to make accusations of cheating...........I just wanted to hear your opinions.....not be attacked for asking the question.


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## susanne (Feb 13, 2006)

While I prefer to show as naturally as possible, I have sweated my gelding's neck (right before the shows, and I haven't seen any real difference yet). Since he is a gelding and nobody is looking to breed to him, I see no harm. I don't feel that sweating is cheating or cruel.

I do have mixed feelings when it comes to sweating the necks of stallions and mares, as it does muddy the waters when trying to breed for a naturally slim neck. If this is a goal in the breed, we should be seeking to achieve a beautiful neck through breeding rather than by sweating, and a horse that can go into the show ring without being sweated is obviously the better horse.

On the other hand, I would hope that anyone looking at a stallion for breeding would look much deeper than what can be seen at a show. It should be assumed that there is a certain degree of smoke and mirrors, so you're setting yourself up if you don't do your research.


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## Becky (Feb 13, 2006)

> Is liposuction illegal according to your rulebook? I think it would be classified as surgical alterations?


According to AMHA, rule GR-040-D states "*No horse having had surgery for purely cosmetic purposes will be permitted to show*". In my mind, that would include liposuction as well as electric acupuncture (of the neck).


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## Annetta (Feb 13, 2006)

slaneyrose, by the very title of your post "...isn't this cheating" you DO suggest that necksweating is cheating. I don't know why so many say things, in print, and then deny saying it.



:

Do I do much neck sweating? No. Do I view it as cheating? No. Do I see it as "cosmetic surgery"? No.


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## Lauralee (Feb 13, 2006)

Let me get this straight....

You don't live in America.

Therefore, most likely, you don't compete in either the AMERICAN miniature horse association shows or the AMERICAN miniature horse registry shows.

So, why, pray tell, would you start a debate on the topic of neck sweating as cheating if it doesn't make one iota of difference to your circumstances whether it is or isnt?

Unvelievable.....


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## capall beag (Feb 13, 2006)

Slaneyrose.... God Love you!!



:



:

I would never ask a Q like this because I knew what you where in for!



:



:

Leia's answer and some others were helpful and probably helped answer your Q.

I think it is largely cultural too, the huge difference of opinion. There are things done here for showing purposes that people from other countries find downright bizarre, but I guess there are other things we do, in Ireland, that Americans find bizarre.

In Leia's response about the beauty pageant that really made sense, to me, because I think that is what topnotch showing is all about in America, for the most part.

Beauty pageants are not my cup of tea. I don't care for all the stuff you would need to do to your animal to make them competitive for a show. I do see that if you wish to be involved in showing many of these things become the norm to be competitve.

I would think neck sweating, unless done in the extreme, would only help emphasise an already good neck, can't imagine wanting to draw attention to a bad neck.


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## Mijke (Feb 13, 2006)

> You don't live in America.
> Therefore, most likely, you don't compete in either the AMERICAN miniature horse association shows or the AMERICAN miniature horse registry shows.


Please excuse me for having to point this out, because it seems that you do not have all information needed:

In Europe we have several AMHA approved shows! So technicaly we can qualify for the worlds etc.

And you can come over here to compete and earn points etc...



:

You're very welcome by the way...



:

And yes...sweating is done over here as well! It can never change a neck, just make it come out more beautifull or more ugly!


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## Margaret (Feb 13, 2006)

I have seen some beautiful necks that people have told me that they did not have to sweat to get them that way.. They were a product of "nice and selective breeding".. If I were looking to buy another horse to add to my herd I would want one of these "natural" beauties for sure. Although I dont show, I still do enjoy taking nice photos, and have wondered about the neck sweating possibility- giving the desired enhancement to the neck.. But have concluded that I would rather say to potential breeders, and buyers, that "no sweating was required"- to obtain the end result. (in the event they should ask)



: JMO


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## Charlotte (Feb 13, 2006)

I think this is a really good thread and brings forward some issues regarding our breed and our breed shows so I thank the person who started it regardless of country of origin.



> Okay, first of all it seems like we're facing two different interpretations of what a halter class is. There's those like me who follow the traditional view that a halter class for any breed is where you determine who is the closest to the ideal and the best breeding stock. Hence, you want to present your horse to its best advantage but the best horse should win regardless of turnout. Then there's interpretation two, which has halter classes being a beauty pageant where no holds are barred unless they actually physically harm the horse or are clearly illegal. You can see how we got from view one to view two- it is only human nature to be attracted to flash and shine so horses that were REALLY well turned out won. So of course everyone starts focusing on the right halter and the perfect outfit, etc. And if your horse was a little faulty here but you could hide it with a skillful clipping job or draping the tail just so, well of course you would. That's only natural too. And BOOM! Before you know it, it's a beauty pageant.


Leia, I think you have hit the nail on the head here. I too am from the old school where a 'show' for an animal is to exhibit the results of our breeding programs....not the restuts of modern medical procedures. And I do think there is a line between 'grooming practices' and medical alteration.......Accupuncture for medical purposes is NOT what I am talking about! I'm talking about medical procedures for purely cosmetic purposes.

Charlotte


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Feb 13, 2006)

Mijke said:


> Please excuse me for having to point this out, because it seems that you do not have all information needed:
> 
> In Europe we have several AMHA approved shows! So technicaly we can qualify for the worlds etc.
> 
> ...


I always find it a bit intersting when people say horses arent dry lotted ever over here or horses arent sweated at all over here. I have seen pictures and heard different.

Sweating isnt some weird american beauty fad - and of course turn out matters that is the name of the game in top compitition in most horse events- you want to look your best and present your horse at its best- but I have always said for me the bottom line is i dont care what a horse has won locally and even at the National level if they cant prove themselves in the breeding shed there titles dont mean much IMO


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## shane (Feb 13, 2006)

I ALSO LIVE IN IRELND AND WE ARE ONLY GETTING OFF THE GROUND,WELL FOR ME IVE LEARNED AN AWFUL LOT SINCE JOINING THE FORUM,I HAVE SINCE JOINING STARTED TO FEED MY HORSES BOSS AND FLAX SEEDS,I AM CURRENTLY USING A NECK SWEAT AS MY STALLIONS NECK IS PRETTY SHORT,AND I FEEL IT WILL OUTLINE IT BETTER, BUT ON THE DEFENSE OF US IRISH,WE ARE ONLY LEARNING AND ANY INFORMATION IS APPRECIATED SO WE DO THE BREED JUSTICE,WE DONT HAVE ANY QUALIFIERS,TO GO TO ENGLAND,AND WE DONT STRETCH THEM WHEN THEY ARE STANDING,WE DONT GEL DOWN THERE HAIR ,WE HAVE SOOOO MUCH TO LEARN AND I FEEL THAT THIS PLACE IS BETTER THAN ANY BOOK,AND IM SOAKING IT UP LIKE A BIG DRY SPONGE,AND ILL BE OUT THIS YEAR BUYING MY GEL,AND TEACHING MY HORSES TO STAND AND MAYBE I MIGHT BE DARING AND BALD HIS NOSE LOL :bgrin YOU NEVER KNOW I MIGHT JUST WIN ONE OF THE CLASSES!!! :aktion033: IN OUR HAND BOOK WE GET WE HAVE TO STAND OUR HORSES SQUARE,AND OUR MEASURMENTS ARE DIFFERENT,I WISH I NEW HOW TO SCAN ON TO THE COMPUTER,BECAUSE IT VERY INTERESTING THE DIFFERENCES,IN OUR RULES,I DO HOWEVER FAVOUR THE AMERICAN WAY OF SHOWING AND I PREFER THERE HORSES THATS WHY A LOT OF OURS ARE IMPORTS FROM AMERICA MINE INCLUDED WAS SIRED BY AN AMERICAN TOYLAND HORSE, AS WAS SLANEYROSES HORSE AN IMPORT,AND WEVE SPENT TOP DOLLAR SO WE ARE TRYING




:


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## kaykay (Feb 13, 2006)

i tried to stay off this thread because i knew it was going to get heated. Slaney i apologize for how you have been treated in this thread. Its a question that gets asked here on the forum quite often and I guess the title just hit some people the wrong way. I have never yet sweated a horses neck to show it but if I felt the need I would maybe do it. So far I have never felt the need. But I dont think it is cheating its just another grooming technique in my book to make a horse look better.

I will say however that I have seen some MISERABLE horses standing in show stalls with a slinky plus a neck sweat plus a throatlatch sweat in 100 degree weather. They usually stand with their hands hanging just looking miserable. I do think in high heat these things should be taken off.

One other thing is that you rarely see all these neck and throat latch sweats on shetland ponies. There are some but not nearly the numbers that minis are sweated. Last year I took a friend to congress and that was the first thing she said right off the bat is wow look at all these horses not wearing neck sweats!


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## Cathy_H (Feb 13, 2006)

> _QUOTE(Cathy_H @ Feb 12 2006, 08:11 PM) _I mean, how did we go from what I would pretty much call a "thick neck breed" to these thin necked horses without human intervention....... I know some of you have thinner necked horses naturally but I have a hard time believing so many horses acquired this look in such a short time......So tell me, how can I and other buyers tell "what you see is what you get" ?


 



> *Easy. Ban neck sweating so that you KNOW that what you see is what you get! That's my point and my only problem with sweating*



Easy?? ??



: How are you going to monitor that this is NOT being done on the farm when horses can't even be measured at their correct height in FRONT of officials at a horse show? 



:

Added...........



> I will say however that I have seen some MISERABLE horses standing in show stalls with a slinky plus a neck sweat plus a throatlatch sweat in 100 degree weather


 ---- Exactly- some can hardly move enough to even eat or drink.


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## HGFarm (Feb 13, 2006)

I dont think its cheating any more than wearing a girdle, panty hose with 'tummy control' or a push up bra!!!

Neck sweating is a temporary thing and does not get rid of TONS of fat or fix a horrible neck.

Me? I am ready to join you ladies at the spa to get rid of some of my extra.....!!


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## Christine (Feb 13, 2006)

a lot of you so called well respected people are very harsh for learners young and old weither we have been in horses 1 day or 75 years we all have something to learn and those who say they know it all are lying (not implying anyone has said that) but who the @*#@ cares if they show or have anything to do with showing dont you think or question the way things are done that you have nothing to do with you just wonder about it, I know I question my husbands work from time to time wonder why they do things they way they do it and he calmly explains to me why I may not understand but he informs me and this is the way it is and guess what it has NOTHING to do with how i do things becuase it is HIS work, but lets go ahead and beat them some more with that whip and show how mature we are. And while we are still there please re-read everone else's posts including mine and in bold letters show us all how to spell. good place to learn once you weed out all the rude disrespectful people I realize we all have oponions (look did we catch that spelling error) but some can come across very ugly like mine esp. when you can not hear my tone or discust.


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Feb 13, 2006)

When I went to my first mini show as an observer I was horrified at the sight of all those sweats, slinkies, wraps, on and on. I have always said that I will never do to my horse something that I wouldn't be willing to do on myself--my personal choice and way of looking at things. When I tried a neck sweat on my mare(fleece lined) I put one around my waist as well. It didn't bother me at all, nor did it bother her. She lets me know in no uncertain terms when she is not ammused with things, and she couldn't care less about the sweats as long as I keep those hoods off of her! I wear make-up to work and try to dress in things that flatter my figure and play up my good points while minimizing my hips--so why would it be a problem to do that for my mare as long as it doesn't bother her? Everything can be taken to extremes, and that is where so many of the problems come in. I would never do acupunture or have cosmetic surgery, so I wouldn't consider it for my horses...plain and simple. I also wouldn't sacrifice my own health or theirs to look a tiny bit better. Sweating worked wonders for the way my mare and I looked in the show ring and didn't hurt either one of us, so in the future--why not do it again?

-Amy


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## randy (Feb 13, 2006)

Mijke said:


> > You don't live in America.
> > Therefore, most likely, you don't compete in either the AMERICAN miniature horse association shows or the AMERICAN miniature horse registry shows.
> >
> > So, why, pray tell, would you start a debate on the topic of neck sweating as cheating if it doesn't make one iota of difference to your circumstances whether it is or isnt?
> ...


I am sooo glad you pointed that out Mijke !!! :aktion033:



: :aktion033:

Sorry slaney.....


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 13, 2006)

This is unbelivable!



: Slaney I certainly did not slam you. This was my first post to you below. I took my time to explain to you and answer your questions that you asked.........that's all! I did say that it was obvious you were not familiar with the process. That is NOT slamming you!

As for my second remark about if you did not like neck sweating....don't do it and don't buy a horse that has been sweated.......problem solved was the obvious solution! That wasn't a slam. To me this is exactly the direction where this thread was heading and Lauralee came up with the perfect answer. As the only answer you were going to see is one you agreed with!

So if you feel I slammed you.........too bad! Normally I would apologize to anyone that I might have hurt their feeling as it is not my intention. But I took My time to explain to you how I felt about neck sweating and this has turned into a circus. A Forum is about OPINIONS! *If you don't think you will like the answers you will hear then don't ask the question.*

*NOW.......you go and look at the first page of this thread!!!!!!!!!!!!!! And EVERYONE ELSE GO LOOK TOO! After only FIVE POSTS you were claiming to have been flamed! Where are the flames??????????????? Explain that so we can all understand why you called five people who gave you their honest opinions "FLAME THROWER"? ** If you are going to accuse people of flaming you point out where the flames are! *



Vertical Limit said:


> First of all sweating should not make a horse feel choked. If a horse feels choked then the person does not know what they are doing. If a horse was choked he would eventually pass out. No doubt people need to learn how to do things properly as anything can hurt an animal if done without proper knowledge.
> 
> Second...neck sweating is not a permanent conf*O*rmational change. It does NOT alter confOrmation. It only sweats out the extra fluid in the neck or whatever you are sweating. If not done constantly the neck will go back exactly the way it was. It cannot even be remotely classified as "surgical alteration"!
> 
> ...


QUOTE(Lauralee @ Feb 12 2006, 06:55 PM)



> If you don't like neck sweating, ....then don't do it! And don't buy a horse that has been sweated if it bothers you that much.
> See? Problem solved.
> 
> Great answer Lauralee!


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 13, 2006)

Becky said:


> > Is liposuction illegal according to your rulebook? I think it would be classified as surgical alterations?
> 
> 
> According to AMHA, rule GR-040-D states "*No horse having had surgery for purely cosmetic purposes will be permitted to show*". In my mind, that would include liposuction as well as electric acupuncture (of the neck).


Thanks Becky for answering that question. I was pretty sure that this had to be a rule. Now my question is if so many people are doing it than why isn't it being dealt with? I know it's tough having been thru this with the Arabs . Are people having it done claiming it's cribbing surgery? How are they getting away with this when it's easily dectected???????? And you can email me if you don't want to get into a big thing here as it is a bit off topic. I am just very curious about this.

But I will say I have a difference of opinion on the acupuncture thing. Not that I disagree with you but I don't think it is classified as "surgery" and therefore does not go hand in hand with lipsuction.

To me you would probably have to get a rule change for that and I don't see how that can be done seeing that acupunture, like I said before, is used for so many other things.

But again, thanks for answering the question.

Carol


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## Lauralee (Feb 13, 2006)

A post seeking information would have sounded something like this:

Please help me understand neck sweating. I do not live in America (presenting all facts ahead of time) and I have some questions. Does the neck sweat hurt the horse? Does it choke the horse? Will it blister the horse? Is sweating a horse against the rules of AMHA shows or AMHR shows? I have only heard about neck sweating in the past 3 weeks (again, presenting all facts in advance) so I am curious about this practice.

And if your post were more intended to ask questions about your cresty mare then it should have immediately stated so up front, and it would be obvious to me that the mare in question would have been discussed in a different way than bringing up cheating and choking and so forth.

Instead your post title was inflammatory, and you knew it would be from the start. The statements you chose to write were not entirely truthful, as you did not disclose your location, or level of knowledge at the beginning.

It does no good to start a wildfire and then coyly step back claiming to be attacked, when your original post was misleading, and accusatory. They way you worded your post, and withheld certain facts was intended to stir the pot.

I stand by my comments and wholly agree with Carol's statement that :

*If you don't think you will like the answers you will hear then don't ask the question.*


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## Conundrum (Feb 13, 2006)

Well, I am from England, where we have at least three societys that we can show with (provided our horses are registered with or we have fullfilled the show requirements) I choose to show mainly with the UK society that shows AMHA style with AMHA sanctioned shows. I also show with one other society. I DO sweat, only horses that I think need it, not as a general rule. I love to see horses prepared well for show, looking clean, sleek and fit, shown to their best advantage. I think sweating is just one of the "tools" we have at our disposal to help us to create the "show" look, after all, as someone else said earlier in this thread, it is a SHOW, a beauty contest, and of course we should get our animals looking the best they can.

I would be the first to come down on anyone I thought was abusing their animals in any way, but I can think of a whole host of bad practice at shows that I would jump on before I jumped on someone sweating their horses neck.

Slaneyrose, I am sorry you have had some replies that could have been kinder, I think that our friends in Ireland are coming on to be a force to be reckoned with, hopefully we will soon be able to participate in each others shows. (The Irish dog circuit is absolutely the best fun....not horse related I know...but hey ho!!)


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## willowoodstables (Feb 13, 2006)

Eeek..

If any of you who disagree or think sweating is cheating please try something. Bend over and tie your shoes and hold your breath. If you are in top physical shape and all your abs are tight and you are on the thinner side, it's no problem. Add a couple rolls extra and it's tough to do. Period.

That said, I sweat necks regularily in the show season. Why?? Because I drive my horses (and show in halter). If the performance horses are a little "flabby" at the throat latch they get worked in a full sweat and then bathed after. In their stalls I use cotton wraps (from my Saddlebred days). Why? As mentioned it removes excess water and helps the horse keep a finer thoatlatch to bend it's neck without compromising breathing.

I have had Saddlebreds and Hackneys for a zillion years. Fortunately the breed has a fine throat latch. I find mini's to have not been so lucky. I help them. Just like putting miles on in a jogger to build leg, wind and muscle. Or using sidelines to build a topline so the horse can elevate and carry itself in harness. No horse is perfect in conformation, but you can, without cruel or hurtful techniques, bring out the best and enhance a horse.

Slaney and others, I don't think anyone is flaming you. I think they are in all honesty trying to help you understand the difference between cheating and beautification (clipping, hoof black, sweating, clean sheets over freshly bathed horse). Cheating is surgery (liposuction, cutting ham strings), permanent dyes, fake hair appliances etc.

If you mare has a fallen crest, it is not from previous sweating. If you don't like the idea of sweating your horse, you don't have to do it to be competetive. Especially if your horse is gifted with a fine throatlatch. A studdy or thick neck will not become thinner just from sweating. You need to literally starve the fat off and geld the stallion and hope for the best, not something I advocate.

It is all in the bottom line of what you want to do (or not do) with your horses IMHO. I want a driving horse that can lift, elevate, drive off the backend AND wear his head. The horse I chose does have a fine throatlatch, I sweat it to make sure he doesn't get "rolls" in this area. As a halter horse, I didn't sweat his neck at all prior to the Nationals..honest. Here he is :






Below is an example of a horse without a fine throatlatch, and it will NEVER be fine, but with a cotton sweat and a full work sweat he will be able to bend more at the poll (I hope). And I used him to demonstrate it is not just mini related. This is a big hairy Gypsy Cob










As in he is bending in the middle of his neck, not at the "hinge" in the poll. I use this analagy from the perspective not related to a halter horse. I think there is a lot in this thread that can be used to understand, as in pro's and con's, but IMHO, as having 30+ years under my belt in various breeds, I have seen sweats on dressage horses, standardbreds, show draft horses besides the minis. hackneys and saddlbreds. Each one had a specific reason and it seemed to accomplish that.

Kim


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## Relic (Feb 13, 2006)

On the subject of sweating necks could someone tell me how long ahead of the first show do you start. l did it half aresed last year while lunging and the year before for a month ahead of the first show and it seemed to have helped but like some l honest to god thought it was not a nice thing to do to the horse. Anyway knowing now what l know because in my neck of the woods asking someone else these questions is almost like pulling teeth because as far as they are concerened they would never sweat a neck l'll ask here and hope for an answer. Also is it okay to sweat a yearling neck or not l think one of the yearlings might have done much better if she had a cleaner throatlatch l was told. No flames just asking so l can learn.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 13, 2006)

_If you mare has a fallen crest, it is not from previous sweating. If you don't like the idea of sweating your horse, you don't have to do it to be competetive. Especially if your horse is gifted with a fine throatlatch. A studdy or thick neck will not become thinner just from sweating. You need to literally starve the fat off and geld the stallion and hope for the best, not something I advocate._

I know I dont have to do it if I dont want to......and dont actually need to as my horses have lovely necks and do very well in the show ring as they are........I just find it amazing that dying the body of a horse is considered wrong......and neck sweating isnt!

_And if your post were more intended to ask questions about your cresty mare then it should have immediately stated so up front, and it would be obvious to me that the mare in question would have been discussed in a different way than bringing up cheating and choking and so forth._

Lauralee.....I didnt start the post to enquire about my mare.......she came to mind as posts were being written, I thought about starting a new post about it but decided to just add my question about her to this....plus if you had read the original post properly you would see that I said "must feel a bit like its being choked" not that owners were ACTUALLY trying to choke their horses!! Many who have posted here have given their opinion in an informative and polite way........why are you being so rude!!! who rattled your cage??? If it was me then I apologise for upsetting you.....But you seem to be deliberately offensive and antagonistic (as others who have sent supportive pms prove) this really seems to have hit a nerve doesnt it?? I wonder why?????


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## Lauralee (Feb 13, 2006)

Its just a simple thing.

If you don't approve of neck sweats, don't use them. Take it or leave it. That simple.

No more energy has to be spent beyond that point. And there is no hidden message there, so don't read more into it.

And you shouldn't ask inflammatory questions unless you can take the responses.

Don't set up traps by omitting details pertinent to the question. Lest the post become a trap.

Me, I'm not upset!



: Seems that you are though, because you didn't agree with the answers provided, or didn't get the desired response. Sorry if I didn't say what you wanted me to say?

For the record, there isn't a single horse on my property wearing a neck sweat. But I don't think that a neck sweat is torture if applied properly. Certainly there is no comparison of neck sweating to surgical revision of a neck.



:

Nobody's attacking you here..... :saludando:


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## slaneyrose (Feb 13, 2006)

Lauralee, its a shame you couldnt have given that straightforward answer in the first place isnt it? In case you havent noticed, several people have commented on the aggressive tone you took......I`m not upset.....far from it......and no one gave me an answer I didnt want to hear,because there is no such answer....I wanted opinions, thats all.... In fact most have been very helpful and informative which is the reason I come to this forum, nothing said here could upset me, except hearing about sad things like that little mares losing the battle recently to hang on to life. THAT upset me.....this is just opinions and information, why on earth would I get upset because someone is rude or unpleasant??? This is just a forum, not my life. :lol:


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## susanne (Feb 13, 2006)

Nobody here was flaming anyone. I've seen no offensive posts here, only those who disagree on this issue. I do not see Slaney's original post as inflammatory, and I do not see the responses as harsh.

It's a given that if you take a stand against a popular technique, you're going to have a lot of disagreement; if you aren't ready for that sort of response, then you are either too thin-skinned or don't really have conviction in your beliefs.

I am speaking as someone who has frequently disagreed with "the way things are done," and I have received many responses disagreeing with me. Have I considered myself to have been flamed? No! Others are being just as honest and opinionated as I am.

Take a deep breath. You don't need to keep quiet or change your mind, but listen to what others have to say. Whether or not you agree, you'll learn where they are coming from.


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## Sue_C. (Feb 13, 2006)

I have been following this post closely, and there has been a lot of great information brought forth...but not without some "peckish" commentary.



:



> Lisa-Ruff n tuff minis--- i dont care what a horse has won locally and even at the National level if they cant prove themselves in the breeding shed there titles dont mean much IMO


This is exactly how I feel myself. Titles do not a sire or dam make...always... Besides, if that _were _ so, then we would all own champions by champions, and not even try to make our own...where's the fun in _that_?



:







> PockertPoniesVa--When I went to my first mini show as an observer I was horrified at the sight of all those sweats, slinkies, wraps, on and on.


Oh my goodness...we were sweating arabian, Quarterhorse and Appaloosa necks 30 years ago...and probably before that.



> Willowwoodstables--I think there is a lot in this thread that can be used to understand, as in pro's and con's, but IMHO, as having 30+ years under my belt in various breeds, I have seen sweats on dressage horses, standardbreds, show draft horses besides the minis. hackneys and saddlbreds. Each one had a specific reason and it seemed to accomplish that.


Exactly so...although Kim, although how _can_ we have been doing all this for so long...when we are still so young-at-heart?? :lol:



> Suzanne--_Since he is a *gelding* and nobody is looking to breed to him, I see no harm_. I don't feel that sweating is cheating or cruel.I do have mixed feelings when it comes to sweating the necks of stallions and mares, as it does muddy the waters when trying to breed for a naturally slim neck. If this is a goal in the breed, we should be seeking to achieve a beautiful neck through breeding rather than by sweating, and a horse that can go into the show ring without being sweated is obviously the better horse.


Now _here_, I beg to differ. _Not_ in the sweating of stallions and mares, but with the statement, "nobody is looking to breed to him, I see no harm". To me, a gelding is the perfect horse; the perfect promotional tool... If we can't look at a gelding, and think to ourselves...Wow...I would love to have a horse _just like him_...what are we _breeding_ for...just more stallions and mares? I have waitied so impatiently, and most excitedly, for my young gelding to come of age, so I could get to training him and take him out on the road...I plan on him--selling _more_ of his brothers and sisters.



:

After all this...no, I haven't needed to sweat his neck at all, and he wasn't gelded until late in his second year. _But_ would I if I felt the need? Most certainly.



:

On the whole...this is a great post. I kind of enjoy it when everyone has opinions which don't always coincide...it would be pretty boring if we all agreed, all the time.


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## minimomNC (Feb 13, 2006)

Our first show is March 31, some of my horses have had sweats on since early Jan. We leave them on 24/7 and take them off to wash once a week. We have two sets per horse and replace anything that is worn out. Our horses don't even think about having them on. They are so use to them. Do they all need it, probably not, but I like the look of a tight, clean throat latch, most of mine have genetically beautiful necks. Not thick or heavy. I bought them for just that reason. I looked at sires and dams that have been on pasture for a few years with no work and bought my horses from backgrounds like that. It isn't cruel. Compared to some things that go on in this and every other horse industry, this is nothing.

Think of it this way, a model would never do a photo shoot with no make up. Doesn't hurt her but sure does enhance her image. Sweats to me are the same thing. A means to a beautiful end. Doesn't hurt them, but sure does enhance that image.


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## Dream (Feb 13, 2006)

> If you don't approve of neck sweats, don't use them. Take it or leave it. That simple.
> No more energy has to be spent beyond that point.


Lauralee, why do you keep trying to put a full stop on this topic. I think it is a great debate topic and not every debate has a right or wrong answer or a resolution. I think some people have gotten quite defensive here which is very interesting. Slaney's original post had a question mark at the end of it. She asked if it was cheating which is very different from suggesting it was cheating. Again you have to be pretty defensive to assume this was an accusation.

Relax and discuss folks, that's what this forum is for.


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## Sue_C. (Feb 13, 2006)

> We leave them on 24/7 and take them off to wash once a week


This, we have never done, and to be honest, don't know of anyone who does. We use sweats when we _actively work_ the horse, leave them on (sometimes doubled) until the horse has cooled, then rinse the neck with clear water so the old sweat doesn't lighten the coat, and blanket and or hood the horse.

I really don't think I'd be wanting to keep them on 24/7 myself.


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## randy (Feb 13, 2006)

Dream said:


> > If you don't approve of neck sweats, don't use them. Take it or leave it. That simple.
> > No more energy has to be spent beyond that point.
> 
> 
> ...


Right on!!

There was ????"S


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## Sonya (Feb 13, 2006)

I don't show, so maybe my opinion doesn't matter much, but I do not think it is cheating. I think it is a temporary way to possibly make the horse look better, to me, I think it is no different then excersizing. There is no way sweating is ever going to make an large, thick neck look like a thin clean one, it may help a little temporarily, but IMO that's all. I look at it no different than clipping, coloring hooves, shaving faces, and excersizing to get your horse looking it's best. I have never used a sweat on a horse before, If I ever do get into showing, I would have no problems about trying one.

Used properly - a neck sweat is of no harm to a horse IMO and is no way cheating.


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## minimomNC (Feb 13, 2006)

I keep them on 24/7, never had a problem. Most trainers that I know of keep them on all the time. Even during turn out time. I am not saying they never come off, they do. We just don't leave them off. Actually we take them off after we work horses to brush them down, but they go right back on afterwards.


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## justagirl (Feb 13, 2006)

Sue_C. said:


> > We leave them on 24/7 and take them off to wash once a week
> 
> 
> This, we have never done, and to be honest, don't know of anyone who does. We use sweats when we _actively work_ the horse, leave them on (sometimes doubled) until the horse has cooled, then rinse the neck with clear water so the old sweat doesn't lighten the coat, and blanket and or hood the horse.
> ...


Alot of the farms I've visited in my area that do sweat, leave them on 24/7 like Minimom mentioned.

I personally put them on it the morning and remove at night, and of course when driving.

I did a short stint in an Appy Halter show barn, and they sweated their horses, like someone here mentioned, totally covered, poll to withers, soaking wet, with the heads tied in the corner in 100 degree heat. :no: *IMO*, very cruel, but to each his own, but none of my horses will ever have to endure this.


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## Annetta (Feb 13, 2006)

No, sorry, as I see it she said "is it not cheating??" which to me meant she sees it as cheating & is just questioning as to whether or not she is right, and she ends her original post with something (forget the exact words & am not going back to check now) that indicates she expects to take flak over what she posted. She saw flames in replies where I didn't see any harshness or flames at all, and some of you see no intent on her part to stir things up with her post....whereas I do see such intent in her words.

So, obviously it is all in interpretation. I don't even see the "overly sensitive" people some have referred to on this topic. The most sensitive ones seem to be those siding with the OP in calling others harsh. (shrugs) Makes no difference to me, I think I've used a sweat on two horses in my life--one big gelding & one small gelding & neither recently--otherwise I chose to breed & show horses that don't need sweating...but I'm not going to condemn those who do use sweats. Actually there is a bit of knack to seeing through sweated necks & such--for the most part I can pick 'em out pretty good & generally don't get fooled by the smoke & mirrors of showing.

As for your mare's neck slaneyrose, you mention she has a cresty neck without being overweight--keep in mind that a horse can get fat for a period of time, & get the cresty neck during that time--then if the horse is slimmed down with dieting, the body gets trim, but that cresty neck is often very difficult to trim down--the body is slim again, but the neck stays cresty. Even if your mare wore a neck sweat at some point earlier in her life, it wouldn't have done any sort of damage that would cause her to get a thick/wobbly crest later on.


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## Miniv (Feb 13, 2006)

Sorry Everyone......but I stopped reading all the back and forth a couple pages ago!

Sweating - IMO - is much like puting make up on a horse -- it is temporary. It is also optional.

Now, what's been extremely interesting has been the subject of acupuncture and various surgical alterations that people have had done to their show horses. I think that this thread has been very valuable for that in itself.

No flames to the original poster. She asked a question and got some "interesting" responses, plus caused a valid side topic to come up with the other invasive methods that some people are doing to their animals. I personally believe that the OTHER methods of changing the shape of the neck deserves its OWN thread.

MA


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## slaneyrose (Feb 13, 2006)

I agree with the new thread idea....I didnt know much about the neck sweating before ...but I knew absolutely NOTHING about acupuncture and surgery.......genie mac, do people really do actual surgery on their horses........AND get away with no scars showing etc???? The mind boggles!! whatever happened to having fun....showing your horse to enjoy him/her and meet up with others with the same interests?? I know we all enjoy winning but I had no idea this was going on. I`m a bit confused about the acupuncture




: I thought acupuncture was used to treat ailments....I have never heard of it changing the looks.....(maybe I should look into that lol) Can anyone enlighten me??


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## Sun Runner Stables (Feb 13, 2006)

Accupuncture _Is_ a way of healing, esp useful in chronic cases and diseases. Useing it with electricty (Incrediby low amounts, I have had it done on my knee, it just kinda tingles) can make it more effective.

With horses with incredibly fatty/chresty necks ( have a look almost like rolls of fat), electric accupuncture can speed up the process of breaking down the fat on the neck to reduce the "rolled" appearance, also it can "help" somewhat with a broken or leaning Crest.

Some are very against it, I for one have never had it done to my horses necks, but have had it done to myself and had clients horses that it has been used on to treat a non-sweating problem. I firmly believe that accupuncture is an extremly useful and helpful medicine, and much less damaging to my horses then most western methods for treating chronic horses.

I personally see nothing wrong with it, as in it's nature, it cannot alter the bone/confomation structure, just help clear away te fat deposits quicker. That's MO though, but I am sure you will get a Very vehement negative opinion from others on here.


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## littlearab (Feb 13, 2006)

Well I can honesty say that I was surprised at what I have seen some do to thier horses to win a placing.

I myself will never "wrap my horse in rubber" as my husbund said" with 2 or 3 full body rugs on in the July heat. :new_shocked: Or tie thier heads up in corners or withhold food and water until after the class to place. I saw this so did my kids, all that one show a whole new subject..There are abuses all around us in every horse breed, even ours. :no:

But I will sweat my stallions neck. Why because if it is not done to excess I see no harm. Putting on sweat during working is just helping out alittle. But I have to wonder if keeping them on 24/7 is alittle much? Just thinking out loud.. no flames intended.

I also have to say that if I were looking at a horse to buy and knew that a certain horse was sweated 24/7 I would not buy that horse. Why because if it has been sweated that much as I see it "that is not it's true neck".I would much rather see a well put together horse in his or her everyday close any day...

To sweat a horse while it's working is one thing, but to keep it "warped in rubber" is wrong.IMHO

You can put a vegatable in a plastic mold and leave it to grow and it grows into that shape. I would think it would be the same with sweating, it is true that neck will not stay that way, but when someone buys a horse to bred they are buying that horse, not the shape of the sweat put it's neck. I know you can not change bone, but you can soft tissue and by tieing a horse head up you can change the way it holds it head to a point..

You can wrap them in rubber and stave them and tie thier heads up, you will most likely win... but the foals out of that horse unless treated the same way will not look that way.

Something I'm not willing to do.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 13, 2006)

_All this over a process that horse people have been doing for half a century?_

(They used to put tight draw reins on carraige horses for years - years ago too, to get their head carraige unaturally high, for fashion. Not pleasant for the horse....just because something is done for a long time, doesnt make it a good thing necessarily)

Spotted pony girl, thanks for your info, it answered my question about acupuncture, it was informative and I think its nice that you have tried it yourself first



I have had acupuncture before too and its not painful as you said. I think its fascinating that it can be used to get rid of fat (and sounds more permanant) If I`d known that I`d have got the dr to stick a few in my tummy as well as my back LOL

Edited:

Slaney, please. Lets not make it personal. Nobody directed anything personal towards you


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## justagirl (Feb 14, 2006)

> I've had accupuncture too and as you said, it is not painful


Sorry if this is fftopic: , maybe we should start a new thread, but I for one had no idea such things were done to animails, but *I've had accupunture done on my back and it hurt like H$LL, and left a lot of scar tissue*. It didn't at first, but the more I had it done, the worse the scar tissue got. This was performed by an asian doctor, whom specialized in this. And I had to be on a waiting list to even get in to see him. .

So my point is.....if this is continually done to keep a cresty horses' neck trim, then the means does not justify the end, and you might possibly be creating a problem *JUST MY OPINION AND EXPERIENCE< NO ATTACK OR ARGUEMENT INTENDED*


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## slaneyrose (Feb 14, 2006)

Oh, thats terrible!!! You poor thing, it must have made it ten times worse!!?? I wonder do many people find this happening after a while. Thanks for your experience


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## susanne (Feb 14, 2006)

> QUOTE
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sue, I would absolutely agree IF I had a breeding program...I would take great pride in saying that I had breed horses whodon't need to be sweated to have a nice neck. As it is, Mingus was a rescue horse who has turned into a reasonably nice show horse. And while this isn't entirely on topic, last year's experience tells me that for him, conditioning (along with training him to hold his neck/head properly and not too high) really does change how the neck looks and has been more effective than the neck sweat.

This photo is of him with no neck sweating, but with a fair amount (though not enough) conditioning:






In this photo, he has had a bit of neck sweating, but I undid anything achieved by having him hold his neck too high...


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## [email protected] (Feb 14, 2006)

Well, this is just my opinion.... Calling neck sweating cheating is like comparing it to "weight watchers" to loose weight....



: :xreiter:

Added:

Not all horses need to have a neck sweat and really its there to enhance whats natural.. OR take away all the extra fat from an obese horse... And then theres some born with just thick necks.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 14, 2006)

susanne, how do you train a horse to stand holding his neck/head a certain way??? I have a hard time teaching them to stand still period!! :lol: All training tips welcome.


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## horsehug (Feb 14, 2006)

Great question, Slaneyrose!

I have never mastered that either!

Mingus looks gorgeous in that ribbon picture , Susanne! 

Susan O.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 14, 2006)

I agree horsehug....what a difference his stance makes??? Please give us a clue Susanne.....pllleeeezzee!


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## Sue_C. (Feb 14, 2006)

> Sue, I would absolutely agree IF I had a breeding program...I would take great pride in saying that I had breed horses whodon't need to be sweated to have a nice neck. As it is, Mingus was a rescue horse who has turned into a reasonably nice show horse. And while this isn't entirely on topic, last year's experience tells me that for him, conditioning (along with training him to hold his neck/head properly and not too high) really does change how the neck looks and has been more effective than the neck sweat.


I was speaking about geldings "as a whole", and using your post as the axis of my point...not meaning just your gelding. Get my drift?



:

It is _such a shame_ that Mingus' parentage was lost...as I personally think that any breeder would be very happy to take credit for producing a horse such as he.



:



:


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## susanne (Feb 14, 2006)

> susanne, how do you train a horse to stand holding his neck/head a certain way??? I have a hard time teaching them to stand still period!! All training tips welcome.


I used clicker training to reinforce my hand signals and verbal command "head up!" Mingus learns very quickly with the clicker. It doesn't hurt that he is quite full of himself (if we tell him he's beautiful, he strikes a pose), but clicker training also is working well with my colt Flash, who is more lovebunny than egomaniac. Thelonius, on the other hand, just comes up and demands kisses.

I also work from the other side of his corral fence, which is just the right height to get him to arch his neck up and over, without bowing the front or reach too far forward.

Thanks, slaneyrose and Susan, for the compliments on Mingus!


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## joylee123 (Feb 14, 2006)

Sue_C. said:


> > she has a VERY thick, fat crest and she is most certainly not overweight, but her crest wobbles when she trots and I wonder if this has been caused by human interference to make her look good in the show ring
> 
> 
> Actually, what you discribe sounds like she _had _ been _too_ fat, and was later fitted-up. Had the neck _been_ sweated...this would likely NOT have happened. I don't think that sweating changes the _shape_ of the neck, per se, but it can _prevent _ a huge crest from developing.
> ...






Sue_C. said:


> > she has a VERY thick, fat crest and she is most certainly not overweight, but her crest wobbles when she trots and I wonder if this has been caused by human interference to make her look good in the show ring
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I agree whole heartedly




:


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## HGFarm (Feb 15, 2006)

Justagirl, I would question the credentials of who you got your accupuncture with as I have had it done DOZENS of times and it NEVER hurt and really dont feel most at all. Yikes! :new_shocked:

Perhaps when someone is looking to buy a horse, that is in show shape, they should ask if the neck is sweated or not and ask to see pics of the horse in 'every day' condition to compare and see what they are really buying.


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## Vertical Limit (Feb 15, 2006)

HGFarm said:


> Justagirl, I would question the credentials of who you got your accupuncture with as I have had it done DOZENS of times and it NEVER hurt and really dont feel most at all. Yikes! :new_shocked:


Laurie, I thought the same thing myself. Although I have never had acupuncture I have watched MANY horses have it for various reasons and they stand in the cross ties asleep! I also have a human friend who had it for back problems and they said they hardly felt a thing! They said it actually felt good. So I too would question the credentials of who the acupunturist was on Justagirl! From what I know and understand you should not have been hurt like that.


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## Hosscrazy (Feb 15, 2006)

Pictures of Mingus...there goes my concentration for the day...



:



:

Liz R.


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## slaneyrose (Feb 15, 2006)

HG farm....In an ideal world that would work  but I imported her from the states and the farm I bought her from even lied about her height!!! Not all breeders are as honest as we would like them to be so could "fake" a horse being in everyday condition.


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## justagirl (Feb 15, 2006)

Vertical Limit said:


> HGFarm said:
> 
> 
> > Justagirl, I would question the credentials of who you got your accupuncture with as I have had it done DOZENS of times and it NEVER hurt and really dont feel most at all. Yikes! :new_shocked:
> ...


Vertical Limit and HGFarm ~ The type of accupunture I had is probably not like what most of you have experienced. Instead of one needle placed in a certain area for a couple of minutes (which is relaxing when I had neck pain), but this was not like that. I don't recall the name it was given but it was a rapid, repeated, sticking all over my entire back, kind of like a sewing machine action. The whole point was to break up calcium deposits in my muscles (so I was told). Don't think it worked to well, and like I said it left a ton of scar tissue, which is very painful. :no:


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## randy (Feb 15, 2006)

To me it seems that the horse who has to wear it 24/7 would be miserable!!!!

Expecially during the Summer!!! I mean could you see yourself out there in the heat with one on??!!


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## disneyhorse (Feb 16, 2006)

You know, I suppose it's no worse than wearing work boots or a bra outside during the summer...

Andrea


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Feb 16, 2006)

Like I said before, I wore one every night for about 6 weeks and while out working (cleaning stalls, feeding, raking the pasture, exercising horses, etc) and it really isn't any worse than just wearing jeans and other normal clothing. I wanted to make SURE it wasn't going to hurt my spoiled little princess that I adore and at the same time I figured if it worked for her, it would work for me....and it did on both accounts. Trust me, if Ms. Rain has a problem with something, she lets me know in NO uncertain terms! It is HOT and humid here, and show couldn't care less about that sweat!

-Amy


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## justagirl (Feb 16, 2006)

disneyhorse said:


> You know, I suppose it's no worse than wearing work boots or a bra outside during the summer...
> 
> Andrea


I agree.

And it's not like their entire body is wrapped, only a portion of the neck.

The problem I have with sweating as I said before.....when the horse is tied with it head in the corner for hours on end with no water, in the middle of the summer. :no:


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## midnight star stables (Feb 16, 2006)

littlearab said:


> Well I can honesty say that I was surprised at what I have seen some do to thier horses to win a placing.
> 
> I myself will never "wrap my horse in rubber" as my husbund said" with 2 or 3 full body rugs on in the July heat. :new_shocked: Or tie thier heads up in corners or withhold food and water until after the class to place. I saw this so did my kids, all that one show a whole new subject..There are abuses all around us in every horse breed, even ours. :no:
> 
> ...



:aktion033: Yes!! :aktion033:


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## Rosebud1920 (Apr 21, 2022)

slaneyrose said:


> Ok....I know I`m gonna get it in the neck for this one but........
> 
> This neck sweating business....It entails tightly binding something around a horses neck or throat so it must feel a bit like its being choked, the results are temporary and do change the neck a lot from examples I`ve see.....so dont you think this is tantamount to cheating as much as body dying etc???? When it comes to confirmation its being radically changed so you may chose to use/buy a horse after seeing it in the show ring but its genetically gonna produce something completely different....bit like cosmetic surgery????
> 
> ...


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