# Possible Pintaloosa?



## RedTango (Sep 24, 2011)

I have one filly outside who's dam is a few spot appaloosa, and the sire is a black and white pinto..the filly looks like a bay appaloosa with a white blanket on her butt.. Now every pintaloosa i've had looked like a pinto with appaloosa spots.. But this foal looks appaloosa. Could she be hiding something?


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## Genie (Sep 24, 2011)

We have a colt from a b/w pinto dam and appie sire.

He looks like a blanket appie.







I am told he is a pintaloosa


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## ohmt (Sep 24, 2011)

If the sire is not homozygous for tobiano then it is very likely the foal is just appaloosa without tobiano. I have two gorgeous loud appaloosa colts by my few spot stallion and out of a black pinto mare. One has sabino (just some sabino roaning and one partial blue eye) and the other has no pinto at all, just appy (and a leopard appy at that!). Genie, your pretty foal looks like a blanketed appaloosa to me-no pinto, unless there are pinto markings on the other side that I can't see in the picture.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 24, 2011)

Some people assume that if you cross a Pinto with an Appy you get a Pintaloosa, but this just is not true.

I would say that your foal is an Appy.

Pictures would be helpful.


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## ohmt (Sep 24, 2011)

Ahhh but I see way too many people think they have a pintaloosa and advertise as such just because the foal has a pinto parent. Pinto parent does not mean pinto foal-not at all. My appaloosas with pinto parents will not produce pinto unless they are bred to pinto because their pinto parent did not pass on any pinto genes (except the colt with sabino but he will never produce a tobiano foal unless bred to a tobiano). I also have a couple of solid mares by two appys and they will never produce appy unless bred to an appy. I do have one appy mare who is solid but for some sclera and mottling under her tail-she has the potential to produce appy when bred to a non appy stallion, but not my solid mares with no characteristics, no matter how many apps in their pedigree.


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## Eagle (Sep 24, 2011)

Yes Diane, my pintaloosa was out of a solid grey mare with no mottling or other characteristics and by a minimal black pinto. He was a very nice surprise.


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## Genie (Sep 24, 2011)

ohmt said:


> If the sire is not homozygous for tobiano then it is very likely the foal is just appaloosa without tobiano. I have two gorgeous loud appaloosa colts by my few spot stallion and out of a black pinto mare. One has sabino (just some sabino roaning and one partial blue eye) and the other has no pinto at all, just appy (and a leopard appy at that!). Genie, your pretty foal looks like a blanketed appaloosa to me-no pinto, unless there are pinto markings on the other side that I can't see in the picture.


The only white markings are what you see on his rump and two white spots under his tail on either side. No other white anywhere.


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## ohmt (Sep 24, 2011)

Diane, I get what you're saying. I have a couple of mares that produce a lot of color with my appy boys too (like the pinto mare that I talked about earlier), but if they are solid and don't have any characteristics, without that appy stallion, there is no appy foal. Of course I will let people know what they have done with an appy stallion, but I won't refer to them as appy if they are not. That just gets too confusing and people might expect loud appy foals if they breed that solid mare to a non-appy stallion (which I see all too often). I had a friend buy two black appaloosa mares a couple of years ago. We went to pick them up for her and one had sclera and mottling, but the other had zero characteristics at all (sired by a leopard and out of a varnish mare). I felt terrible for her-she was expecting two appaloosa mares, but was only getting one. She sold the non-appy because she had hoped to breed the mares to her few spot to produce more few spot/snowcap foals.


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## ohmt (Sep 24, 2011)

The people I'm talking about are breeding solids to solids, but because one of those solids has produced apps on a regular basis (bred to an appy of course) they think there are appy genes lurking and that they can get an appaloosa foal when it just doesn't work that way. They are either newbies or just don't really understand color and pattern genetics.

My friend was getting 50% homozygous foals with her few spot stallion bred to appaloosa mares. She knew the non-appy mare would always produce an appaloosa foal with her few spot, but she wanted the shot at the fewspot/snowcap and since that mare was not appaloosa, that would not happen. I think if she had bought her a few years earlier when her focus was any appy and not just homozygous appy, then she would have kept her. It was just disappointing that the breeders told her she was an appaloosa when in fact she was not. This was a 6 year old mare and she really had zero characteristics. She was not going to produce appy bred to a solid and she was not going to give the 50/50 chance of a homozygous appy foal bred to the friend's few spot. She kept the mare with no visual patterns, but with characteristics and received two snowcap fillies before she dispersed of her herd.

Love the foals that your solid mare has given you! I'm sure she has some genes that help the appaloosa pattern be expressed, but the appaloosa gene has to come from the sire first and then she helps it along. I guess I am not as well versed in appaloosa genetics as most (you included!), but from what I have read, I believe that is how it goes? My few spot produces mostly blankets with solid mares with zero appaloosa breeding, but he does produce near leopard and leopards when bred to the right ones, usually pintos.


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## RedTango (Sep 24, 2011)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> I think I understand what you're saying -- but if someone is breeding for appaloosas, I would expect that one of the horses they use for breeding to be a visual appaloosa -- or why call it breeding for appaloosas? Just like in a pinto breeding program, you would normally be including a visual pinto in any breeding program. So if you're saying people would buy a 'visual solid' appy and breed it to another 'solid' and expect an appaloosa to result -- I would say they do not have an appaloosa breeding program, and they shouldn't be confused on why they didn't get an appy foal.
> 
> As to your friend, I think that's very sad, because the non-characteristic mare would have produced an appy foal since the sire was a fewspot and is therefore homozygous for appy and any resulting foal would have inherited an appy gene from the sire. I believe that chances are that "visual solid" was carrying the appy genes, even if not visual. If her stallion was truly a fewspot, then she really had no worries, since there are those with 0% patterning on the Appaloosa site that are still carrying the appy genes. Then, to cross to a fewspot, she would have been almost 'guaranteed' an appaloosa foal. Now, how she could expect to 'breed for' fewspots or snowcaps -- well, we all know that 'breeding' for those is a crap shoot.
> 
> ...



I LOVE your minis..especially those leopard spot!

All of my mares are either appaloosa...or pinto as of now.. I have no solid mares. I would love to find some cremello or perlino, but finding those are hard here. The only solid colored horse I have is a silver bay stallion.. hopefully in the future i'll find a nice leopard spot or loud colored stallion for my appy mares..

I love spots.


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## Songcatcher (Sep 24, 2011)

You know infinitely more about Apploosas than I, and I would not think of disagreeing with you on App genetics. However, I do disagree with this statement:



Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> ... Just like in a pinto breeding program, you would normally be including a visual pinto in any breeding program. .


While I don't necessarily consider mine a "Pinto breeding program", I do love Pintos.

Crossing this stallion:






With this mare:






I got this foal:






Even though the mare is registered as Solid, she is lab tested Tobiano. I also have more examples of mares with even less white (not owned by me) who are lab tested Tobiano, some even homozygous. So, if a person had a "Pinto breeding program", they could quite possibly use horses that "appeared" Solid in their quest for Pinto foals.

I'm just saying it does not necessarily work the same in Pintos as in Appaloosas.

I'd better quit before I confuse myself more. Pinto genetics, I feel quite safe with. Appaloosa genetics


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Sep 24, 2011)

Here is my pintaloosa, he's visually appaloosa, and his blue eyes are due to splash which is considered a pinto pattern.

Sire was my overoloosa (black near leopard, splash, sabino and varnish)






Dam is our black pinto (tobiano, sabino, splash)






Colt was born solid black with blue eyes:






By first clipping he had frosting and spots:






Most recent (photo as a 2 1/2 year old), tho he is fuzzy, but you can see his frosting extends clear up to his shoulders.. It's even more visible right now as a coming 4 year old, I just don't have any new photos.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Sep 24, 2011)

This SAME EXACT cross a year later produced this splash filly. I do NOT believe this filly is pintaloosa, she is a 2 year old and still does not have any appy characteristics..


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## JMS Miniatures (Sep 24, 2011)

To me in order for it to be pintaloosa it must show atleast some appaloosa characteritcs. This was my filly I had, her sire was a minimal pinto who I believe was homozyogous and a near leopard varnished mare. When this filly was born she was just a black pinto but then she got more motteling, striped hooves like apps have, and she really started varnishing out. So she is a pintaloosa. I wish I had pics of her when she was a lil older.


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## Eagle (Sep 25, 2011)

My minimal black pinto stallion: (he has only 2 white marks on one side)





Bred to this grey mare:





Gave this result:






who grew up to be like this:


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Sep 25, 2011)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> I am so amazed by those who have the overo programs, and seemingly breed 'visual' solids with a little facial white and then produce those outstanding, LOUD and colorful overos! It blows my mind! Like the crossings that Lucky-C-Acres just shared with us! Amazing!


What's funny is I was going for the appy with chrome lol not focusing on the pinto.. Of course I knew both parents were splash (both were LWO tested and both were negative) and that could possibly come through strong if both passed it, but never did I think I'd end up with that loud splash filly from that cross!

This cross below (now that I'm mainly pinto program) surprised me.

I crossed my pinto boy Doc:






With this mare, a black bay solid, who is sired by a black pinto and out of a (supposed as she's registered) chestnut appaloosa mare (so she's technically "pintaloosa" bred, but has absolutely no white, no appy characteristics etc.)






and got this foal:






WOWZERS! Was my initial reaction of course! I assumed all along that Doc hit the paint overload button with this guy, but part of me because that mare had an appy dam had me thinking that maaaaybe she was hiding her mottling well or something and appy was coming through on this boy.. So contacted the gals at the Appaloosa Project as at the time they were looking for horses that had appaloosa parent(s) but the horse itself was visual solid etc. and asked if they'd be interested in testing her for the Lp gene, told them her history, sent some hair and sure enough she does NOT carry any appy, therefore can't pass it (I do believe they researched her dam of course and she is indeed appaloosa).. So this boy is full blown pinto, I'm betting tobiano, sabino and most likely splash (which to me is surprising as I wouldn't have pegged Doc as a splash carrier)

I do have this colt's half sister (out of the same dam) but by a loud black pinto stallion, who def. looked splash, her other side is completely white..






and the kicker, I crossed the bay mare with Doc again for 2011 and got a jet black solid filly with no white! lol


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## Genie (Sep 25, 2011)

THis is a great topic. I love the pictures of the resulting foals from the pictured sires and dams. It's like opening a present when these foals arrive


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh gosh and how could I forget about this boy!

His dam is an obvious pintaloosa, she had clearly visible pinto pattern as well as appy spots and varnish roaning.. Her sire was NFCS Reverend Steve (black pinto) and she was out of Trios Alibi (black appaloosa)

(bad photo of her, but only one I can find at the moment.. Unfortunately we lost her when this colt was only 3 months old in 2008



)






She was bred to the overoloosa in my first post..

and the result was this colt, jet black pinto, no appy characteristics, who at last hearing from his owner last year (he'd been 2) still was not showing any appaloosa coloring/characteristics:


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## Reble (Sep 25, 2011)

Here is my mare now going permanent and has changed

When she was born looked Black Pinto

than around 2 years old got her mottling. on muzzle and butt.

So now thinking Bay pintaloosa can you guys help me out..

Dam :::




Sire:::




When April was born:




and now at 3 years old...




So I am thinking should be registered Bay Pintaloosa ?


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## RedTango (Sep 25, 2011)

I sure wish I could upload my pictures! But because of where I live the best internet service is still dial up... we cannot get high speed.. I could post pictures up via Droid but it seems I don't have that option when im on the forums with my phone..

I had a buttermilk buckskin pintaloosa a few years ago.. she exploded with color.. I'm trying to get more appaloosas/pintaloosas showing in Louisiana, especially with the 4-Her's... I'll let youth borrow the brightly marked horses and show in 4-H and talk about the heads that turn to look and the spots!


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## Reble (Sep 25, 2011)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> She obviously has inherited the appy gene, so I would register her as a Pintaloosa, but that's just me.



So would you say bay or black ?


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Sep 25, 2011)

Reble to me she appears bay, what I would call a black bay, but bay.

I found some photos I had saved of the last pintaloosa mare's foals (not bred/raised by me, I only got the cute little black pinto baby from her before we lost her)







I'm betting that the way the white over her hips looks she has a 'blanket'






I believe if I saved these right, the below two pics are the same filly:











And I believe these two are the same (and my favorite!), she is sired by Fallen Ash Scouts Robin Hood (Solid Black)


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## ohmt (Sep 25, 2011)

I will share some!

This mare (a black tobiano + sabino) has been crossed with my bay (homozygous black, heterozygous agouti) few spot appaloosa stallion, twice. Well, technically 3 times! She's in foal to him for next year again



I don't have any decent pictures of her so I'll just post one from this year that shows her color (she has a small star and has brown eyes):






This is their 2011 black leopard colt-he shed to have spots from nose to 'toes' and even has spots on his ears. No sabino, no facial white, no blue eyes, and no tobiano. He will never produce any pinto patterns unless bred to a pinto mare. This is him just a couple days old so he is sporting the newborn baby fuzzies:











And their 2009 bay blanketed appaloosa colt with some sabino roaning and one partial blue eye. He is varnishing out and has huge spots to his shoulders, so I'm thinking in another couple of years he will 'appear' near leopard:


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## RedTango (Sep 25, 2011)

Oh he is gorgeous!!!


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## ohmt (Sep 25, 2011)

I've got one more!

Here is a black varnish appaloosa stallion, sired by a black snowcap son of Rancho Casa Bellas Chianti II and out of a mare that appeared to be a silver black minimal tobiano pinto. He was born solid black and then varnished out by a year or so. He had no pinto patterns-no facial white and had no white anywhere else except for his varnish.











--This stallion is NOT silver, the silvery look comes from the appy. He did not get the silvery look until he varnished. I had so many people think he was silver when I had him for sale that I finally got him tested. No silver





We did this cross two other times and received two 'toveroloosas'. They were LOUD chestnut toveros with bald faces, blue eyes, LOTS of white, and snowflake spotting/varnishing. I sadly don't have any pictures of them on my computer. I'll see if I can find some later to scan in. That 'minimal tobiano pinto' mare was carrying splash and sabino without visually showing it. She had no facial white, brown eyes, and no sabino roaning anywhere, just stockings and a 'butterfly' on her rump. It did not come from the snowcap-he also had no facial white, brown eyes, and no other visual pinto patterns. The only time he ever produced a pinto was with that mare.


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## Sandee (Sep 25, 2011)

You can never tell visually what you have with Appies. My stallion LOOKS Black Silver Dapple but he throws Silver and Appy or has so far. He is a fooler because Dapple can have mottling. He's eight years old , solid white feet, mottling has changed from year to year increasing ( at first it was only his manhood that had it - now it's on his butt and mouth) I am wondering if he will eventually go snowflake as he has gotten 3 tiny white spots in the last 2 years. One on the underside of his neck and 2 on his belly.






Here is his Sire and Dam (not visually Appy but Sire has Orion in the line):








I'll have to put the pictures of his foals in another message as this won't take all the pictures.


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## Sandee (Sep 25, 2011)

He was bred to a solid black mare





and a visually roany looking chestnut





Here the colts 2 and 3 years later:








Appies are such FUN.


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## Eagle (Sep 25, 2011)

What a wonderful thread, i am learning so much. Thank you and please keep the photos coming.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 26, 2011)

Perhaps I am a traditionalist, but, for me, an Appy is a visual Appy- it has spots, obvious spots. Anything else is "carrying Appaloosa pattern"

A Pinto is a visual white + any other colour under the sun.

Anything else is "carrying Pinto"

And, I also have to say, a characteristiced Appy does not make an Appy for me. No spots, no straight Appy.

It is Varnish or it is characterisitced.(Is that even a word???



)

And another thing, whilst I am at it- both the "carrying" claims must be backed up by either DNA or breeding proof.

So breeding an Appy to a Pinto does not, by any thinking, get a Pintaloosa- it could just as easily get a totally solid horse carrying no genes from Appy or Pinto.


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