# Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions



## SmoothEZ (May 12, 2006)

I have been hanging around on this forum now for quite some time and I usually do not post much but lately I have noticed that there seems to be alot of mediocre horses that are kept as stallions that should not be. I know alot of people here claim that their breeding goals are to improve the breed and I can say that in the last 10 years or so the breed has come a long way, but it still seems to me that alot of people are barn blind when it comes to their stallions. I am a firm believer that you do not have to keep every horse as a stallion, if you want to improve on your breeding stock there are alot of really good stallions out there that stand to outside mares. Wouldn't it benefit you small breeders to pay that breed fee instead of putting alot of pet quality horses on the market. Wouldn't that also help the breed economics, as the resulting foals would be worth more and the amount of pet quality horses would be reduced. It just seems to me that alot of the so called small breeding operations are sabotaging the breed in a whole just to say they have a breeding stallion when in fact what they have or what they should have is a half way decent gelding.

I look at alot of the critique pictures that are posted on here and I think to myself that I would not breed that horse or even show it in any halter or confirmation classes as it has many things wrong with it, but these people that post really think that they can do well in a confirmation class. I also read alot of the posts that result out of these requests for critiques and I think alot of the response are over and above being nice. My mother always told me that if you don't have something nice to say then don't say anything at all. I believe that the "nice" responses are just perpetuating the problem and these people will continue to breed mediocre horses if we continue to tell them (because we are nice people) that they have nice horses. If you have to ask for a critique of a horse then there is a good chance that the horse has problems. If you want to know how your horse will perform in a confirmation class then go to the top breeding and training websites and compare you animals to what you see on their websites and if you can not honestly say that your horse can stand along side their horses in the show ring and you would not be embarrased to be there then maybe just maybe you have something. But if you are embarrased then it is time to geld. Sorry now it is time for me to step down off my Sounding Platform.


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## lyn_j (May 12, 2006)

[SIZE=36pt]AMEN![/SIZE]

Lyn


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## nootka (May 12, 2006)

Not being snobbish, myself, but not wanting for others that don't know me to think so, I keep my opinion to myself lots of times.

There are so many WONDERFUL stallions out there, with everything to offer.

Far too few are willing to be selective in their goals, even if it means not breeding "little so and so" the love of their lives. I don't really have a problem with it when the people are committed to decent homes, but even so, why would they breed/buy a little short-legged thing w/heavy bone (I dont' mean good bone, I mean HEAVY), a coarse head, etc. etc. as well as many poor conformation points. Because they're cheap to buy. This is why I geld my baby boys. I just don't want to contribute to that.

I think the colts I've gelded in the past (most of them) have been better than 2/3rds of the stallions I see advertised for farms. Just being "subjective". Anyone that knows me knows I am far more critical of my own horses than anyone else's. I am quite picky and yes, I do know my horses have flaws and shortcomings, but I keep my eyes on those and am careful not to double up.

Horses that are so-so or have conformational defects which will cause unsoundness are culled as pets/performance horses depending on the problem and the males are sold gelded.

I think too many are willing to sell their colts too cheaply and then someone gets one and thinks "well, I'll get a little mare for him" and so on and so on. Which is fine, but it happens a LOT and it doesn't need to be so much an afterthough rather than something you concentrate on.

Everyone has their own tastes, which I forgive with type, but obvious deformities which cause unsoundness, heritable flaws (and I consider incredibly heavy bone for their proportions a flaw), all of these are unnecessary.

The problem is many-fold and it begins with education and awareness of what's out there.

Not everyone wants to own the next National Champion, but shouldn't we all try to at least keep our eyes on correctness and conformational proportions?

Liz M.


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## Devon (May 12, 2006)

Well Said !!I know what you mean but beginnners and new horse owners get all excited with their new horse ownership and want to get straight into showing many dont know what show quality is all they know is theyre horse is beautiful and thats all that matters. they will figure when they show that their horse isnt show quality its ok though theres Performance classes that these "Non Show Horses" as you call them can EXCEL! Perhaps I get your point with Stallions but We cant perfect the breed and change pepoples opinions on the type of horse they like




: Let It Be and if someone thinks their horse is Stunning let them.



:



:


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## HGFarm (May 12, 2006)

Oh ditto to all the above 10 times!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! 

I have seen horses kept for 'sentimental reasons' as stallions that were just not up to par... and yes, many are barn blind. They dont understand why the offspring does not sell, or they only get $800 for it.


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## Jill (May 12, 2006)




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## miniaddiction (May 12, 2006)

I cannot agree more! :aktion033: What gets me, is how many people will say "wow how come you gelded him? Hes so Nice"....... I also know a person over here, who imported a really really good show gelding, who has since been a supreme champ horse over here. People often say to her, "why on earth would you spend all that money importing a gelding when you cant even breed with him?

Really well said SmoothEZ, thanks for bringing this up. :bgrin

Helen


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## KanoasDestiny (May 12, 2006)

I am really confused here!!! It all started earlier this week, when I saw a post on here where a forum member stated that her stud may be throwing locking stifles. A GREAT majority of the people I usually see post about the "betterment of the breed", told her that in no way should she geld her horse and that they would be honored to have a foal by him. In fact...I think only 3 members were honest and said that they would not buy a foal of his.

What gives? I understand that he is a gorgeous horse (I have told her that myself) and I personally would have no problem buying one of his foals (my filly was born with a bad bite and in no way is she unworthy to me), but I have also never passed judgement onto other people's horses and told them that they are only mediocre. To me, if you are interested in the betterment of the breed, then this stallion, regardless of how beautiful he is, would be a big no no to breed. I think a lot of people are being biased here.

I saw another member ask to have their horse critiqued on here yesterday. To me, there was no difference of the before picture (where apparetnly a year ago, you told her he was not breeding material) and the pictures that were current. Appearence doesn't change the fact of whether he should be bred or not. If he had flaws a year ago, wouldn't he just be a flawed horse in general where breeding is concerned? Or if he is good enough to breed now, wouldn't he have still had the same genes last year? By the way, to me, he was very pretty in before and after pics.


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## Vertical Limit (May 12, 2006)

> Why Do People Keep Mediocre Horses as Stallions


The answer is quite simple. Most people are too blind or don't realize the stallions are mediocre! And some just flat out don't care.......it produces color,etc.

There are all sorts of people breeding horses on here that ask about good conformation. If you don't know what good *conformation* (not confirmation......nobody is being confimed here






is in the first place, how do you know what to breed for?

And not to sound like a broken CD........but how many people here would actually stand up and say that their horse is mediocre? It's not going to happen and it's not going to change.


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## rockin r (May 12, 2006)

I may not have TOP quality horses, and I am not barn blind either. But, I can not afford to have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ horses. The horses I do have I paid a price for. If I want to breed them I will. I do not sell them and I only have one or two a year. I have only what I can afford to keep and keep well. I don't breed just to sell them. They are better taken care than I take of myself. For me it is the love of the horses and their companionship that I got into minis. I am of no threat to you BIG breeders, and some of the horses from BIG names, that everyone druels over in my opionion, well I'll keep that to myself. Not to be mean but (it hurts don't it!!!)



. No one like to hear their horse is pet or mediocre quality. My point is, to me beauty is in the eye of the beholder and what you might think is Mediocre, to me is wonderful!!



:


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## Jill (May 12, 2006)

Part of the problem too is that for SOME REASON, with minis, people jump into breeding right off the bat without knowing much of anything about horses let alone minis. They don't know good horsemanship and they do not know how to evaluate conformation or to take it a step further and also evaluate TYPE. A horse can be conformationally very correct but not be typy and that's important in my book.

Another part is that ego thing. It does feel elite to have a stallion especially when you are new to miniatures. However, how elite is it really when we nearly all have our own stallion or two?

The way I see it, if you do not have good reason to know your stallion is National halter calibur, why keep him whole? In this day and age, there are very good stallions available either to own or to breed to. There are already soooooooooooo many minis being made, so it's important to do everything you can to produce top notch animals.

Cute just isn't enough. All minis are cute.


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## mountain_waif (May 12, 2006)

I....


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## wiccanz (May 12, 2006)

Simply answer to your question, is because they can!

We took the big step of gelding our stallion earlier this year. It all started when we visited the World Show in October, some of the horses we saw there made our eyes water! And we decided right then and there that if we were really serious about breeding, and improving the breed down this end of the world (and it needs some improving



: ), then it was foolish to use a less-than-perfect stallion.

We love our little guy to bits



: , and we pondered long and hard over our decision, but at the end of the day, we decided he just wasn't good enough. Plus, the only foal he has produced to date is a much better horse (in our opinion) than either of his parents. And that, to me, is the whole point of breeding. Always breed 'up'.

Something else struck me the other day about this - if the stallion out in your paddock was gelded tomorrow, would he make it in the show ring against the geldings out there now?? If the answer is no, then why on earth would you want to breed from him?? :new_shocked:

Now, we have a great gelding that we will have great fun showing and driving and enjoying for the cool little horse that he is. :bgrin


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## nootka (May 12, 2006)

> I do not sell them and I only have one or two a year. I have only what I can afford to keep and keep well.


This is not part of the "problem" I see with the vast majority of "mediocrity." Yes, some of these horses may end up in the market at some point, even though you intend to keep them, but really, you're not adding to the huge pool of "so so" out there that tends to water down the entire market save an elite few.

It is disappointing to me to see so many pursuing color with no real prejudice towards nice conformation, but that is their choice, and they do sell a lot of them.

There is one breeder in this state that sells a LOT of horses. They breed for color, basically, and they do high volume sales. I know for a fact that they don't get "top dollar" prices even though they'd like you to think they do, because they may just stumble onto someone that doesn't know better, who will indeed give them that top dollar, but that is the exception, not the rule in this case. I've been to their farm and there is every color under the rainbow, and then some. There is also a pronounced lack of care towards type, and going with that is a higher than average proportion of dwarfs, very poorly conformed horses. I can't stop them from breeding, and my one or two horses per year really don't stand out much in the crowd being plain solids, yet my horses are reasonably correct and nicely proportioned (IMHO, feel free to look at my site and judge for yourself). Not perfect, and maybe not National Halter quality in every case, but approaching it and I have gotten some unsolicited compliments from people with nothing to sell me on the quality of my horses.

While I hate to think that I would want to leave the breeding/stallion owning to those with large sums of money to invest, it appears to me at this point in my life, that in my best interest is to solicit local stallions for my breeding, since I can't really have my own stallion right now for several reasons. I am lucky in that there are a lot of gorgeous stallions to choose from.

A great stallion is not going to "only cost $250" or even $1000, he's going to cost you several stud fees' worth at the LEAST, and that is not to be unexpected, IMO.

I've been guilty of having a mediocre stallion. I woke up and sold him and gelded him (2X over!).



I'm constantly learning about my preferences in type, and just when I think I have it figured out, I find out a stallion doesn't really fit into my lifestyle right now, nor my budget! *LOL*

But I am not going to balk at spending $750 on up for a quality stud service for my quality mare.

Eh, I'm rambling, but I was thinking a lot about this while I was working in the barn today.

Liz M.


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## cowgurl_up (May 12, 2006)

: Wow this is a really good topic as it hits with something that I am facing right now! I agree that there are lot of not needed stallions in the mini world. I am new to the breed and am very suprised to see how many there are and have come to the conclusion that it is because they are easy to keep and handle. Now in the bigger horses, unless it is a phenominal colt, it is gelded before or just after it is weaned. In fact, geldings are usually worth more and easier to sell then a stud colt because the buyer doesn't want to have to pay to geld it. People want horse they can trust. With minis, they are so small that they are not hard to contol, even as a stud.

I guess I am just as guilty as the first mini I have is a yearling stallion. I have not decided if I am going to keep him one or geld him. I am going to let his show results at the end of this year and next year influnce me if it is worth it or not. Also, it depends on other people. If I have a lot of requests for babies out of him or to book breedings with him then that will also reflect on my concluding thoughts on him. I think that is the other reason why every one leaves them a stallion, they are hoping to make money off of him, whether it be by selling his foals or by breeding to outside mares. To me, if there is a market for his foals then it is alright, but if you are having to keep or basically give away the foals then it is not worth it.

I agree, work to better the breed!!!!!


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## Reble (May 12, 2006)

Ok, I also have been taught you are only have one chance in life, and I want to be remembered as having a heart.

Just my own opionion. Thought and seen this since I have started in miniature horses. Does take time to learn and know what to look for. In time we all do understand the best of the best.

I have seen and know people that go to the Nationals, and area shows, and win not because of their horses comfirmation put because the judges have gotten to know the name.

Not to start any agrument, but what you see is different than what others see.

Again Buckeroo was a good example someone seen something in him no one else did.

I think it is the judging at the shows is where it should start.

I also notice prices are sometimes just outrages, when the price on bigger horses have declined with such beautiful horses all the way around.

So we should not be the judge, just because they have a dream. Everyone starts here.



:

Not all horses can jump, drive and do great at obstacles, just because of good confirmation. Every horse should have a purpose for breeding. Again my opinion.

Thanks for letting me share my opionion, we all can learn, and thank goodness we do start to learn to have an eye for the good well put together miniature horse.

:saludando:


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## slaneyrose (May 12, 2006)

Smoothez....I read saw that thread with the stallion who was critiqued last year and thought he had really improved.....and was very nice...in fact nicer than some I know of who boast about their stallions when in fact they are known for passing on club feet.....and I have seen many other miniatures improve with maturity and good feed (even going on to do really well in the show ring when they didnt previously) as have other more experienced breeders on here that have even used these ones to teach the youths about conformation so obviously you cant necessarily know if a yearling is going to be stallion material or not unless its an obvious fault that wont correct itself. Some horses are born with bites that are off and they correct themselves......we have all seen the gangly yearling that looks like his 2 front legs are coming out of the same hole who as a four year old has perfect straight legs.

_There are so many WONDERFUL stallions out there, with everything to offer._

This is true and I agree that only good stallions should be used but the mare has 50% of the responsibility too so using one to compliment the other is more important in my opinion. And then there is the problem of the gene pool. In the States you probably dont have this problem now but in U.K a few years ago, the British Miniature Horse Society had to open its stud book to hardshipping because the gene pool was so small!! Here in Ireland we have a society (a new one) that hopes to address these problems by having stud book 1 and 2 (1 as approved breeding stock both mares and stallions, and 2 for those who havent qualified for book 1 and therefore shouldnt be bred from)


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## nootka (May 12, 2006)

Yeah, but good feed and conditioning does NOT change basic poor conformation, nor does it turn a "so so" horse into a National Champion, or of that caliber.

many horses who've sired National Champions have not been themselves. I happen to know that most of these stallions were admired by MANY.

Someone pointed out that Buckeroo "someone saw something in him that noone else did." He himself was a multiple champion, and I think he was greatly noticed, hence his $100K selling price even in the early 80's. Myself, I think people DO notice good proportions and correct conformation (correct conformation does not necessarily MEAN a horse will be able to jump, drive, etc., but it IS the best place to start for EVERY purpose of a horse, whether you intend to stare at it in your pasture all its life or take it to the World), they think it's out of their reach, but if they were realistic, and put away the $1500 or so that they would spend on a cheap colt, as well as the care money, they would have themselves a great start on a stud fee for a good quality mare.

Just my feelings,

Liz M.


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## Reble (May 12, 2006)

Just food for thought,

Example in producing great confirmation.

I know that Scotch Collie Dogs have been bred to get better fine bone structure.

What has happened in the States, I know personally, have had great breeders contact me, and want to have the old Lassie type bloodline, because of the defects are now showing up in their breed.

WE never know do we?


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## tagalong (May 12, 2006)

> This is true and I agree that only good stallions should be used but the mare has 50% of the responsibility too so using one to compliment the other is more important in my opinion.


But as a mare can have but one faol a year - and a stallion can sire many - they are thus held more to task...

Falling back on the old "well the judges only pick by names of handlers and farms etc." is simply another cop-out IMHO. I have seen many VERY nice horses do very well with Not Well Known handlers and farms.

The big name trainers wind up with fancy horses as they know what they are looking for - unlike your Uncle Joe who thinks your stallion is "cute".

The argument about "performance" horses not needing to be halter horses (read "correct") ... is also a bit murky. *Form follows function*. The horse should look good moving as well as standing still. If not - GELD HIM. No matter what "lines" he is from - just because he is a Buckeroo does not mean he is THE Buckeroo....

I have never understood WHY so many people even want stallions. With big horses it is a bit less convenient - but it happens there, too. QH stallions with looooong backs, steep croups and thick necks... that would have made awesome geldings. But everyone simply has to have their own "herd sire". WHY? I am always lobbying for excellent geldings to be made of our excellent herd sire's sons. And some have been exactly that. Our "herd sire" could get clipped up a bit - strut into the show ring this summer - and do very well. He has not been_ near_ a show in 4 or 5 years. How many "herd sires" out there can that be said of? And no - I am not barn blind... he has the credentials to prove that.

Anyway - I agree with the original post - I see way too many mediocre stallions out there... and when one's goal as a breeder IS to improve the breed, we need to look past _colour_ and _cute_ and _lines_ and a myriad of other influences... and examine the individual. It speaks poorly of the breed that stallion classes are waaaay bigger than the gelding classes. As has been said many times in many threads - _the true mark of a good breeding program is the quality of your geldings...._

_No one_ needs to be breeding low quality stock - whether mares _or_ stallions.

But too many people say _it's not my fault - not my problem.... I'll do what I please _ - and then complain mightily about prices and too many minis....

All the above is JMHO. YMMV...

Back to the barn...


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## slaneyrose (May 12, 2006)

Nootka, I didnt mean good feeding could improve bad conformation....I did in fact say real conformation problems are obvious but I remember one of the more experienced breeders on here showing a pic of a horse with a very weak hip....it looked gooserumped....then as a 3yr old his back end was completely different.....really gorgeous!!! It seems in minis the rear end needs time to mature more than the rest of them.....on the other hand, if I had a foal that had bad joints, club feet, or some other defect that I knew wouldnt improve then I wouldnt sell it for breeding or showing, only as a pet.


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## Walbon Acres (May 12, 2006)

To begin with there is no perfect horse. Also some famous stallions have passed on conformation faults but people still buy them and breed them. I believe that to truly know if a stallion is good you will have to breed him to see if his offspring hold up to a higher standard. Also has everyone forgotten that the mare also plays a large part in the resulting offspring! Why do you think that people say "To approved mares only " when they stand there stallions at stud. I have a mare here that I would call average but she produes lovely foals. WE also had a beautiful Half Arab mare whose dam was as ugly as a mud fence but she produced Champion offspring. So the stallion can also sire above average foals. Sometimes you have to go by the pedigree and the combination of the mare. I will agree that there are alot of stallions out there that should be gelded but just because a stallion is not "perfect" does not mean that he should be gelded. As far as gelding a colt before you sell it, I usually sell my colts as weanlings and they are not dropped therefore I don't have them gelded.


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## Cathy_H (May 12, 2006)

> go to the top breeding and training websites and compare you animals to what you see on their websites b


Truth be known there are *big* name farms churning out mediocre horses every year also. Lee & I have seen this over & over since we started showing & breeding in 1986......... Over the years we have visited well advertised farms.... Some of what was presented to us was NOT near as nice as the stallions or mares that we were currently using............................... Just because a farm is small does not mean it has mediocre horses. We have used two stallions in our breeding program from two of the most well known proven bloodlines ever, producing 2-4 foals a year. Several of our bred & raised horses were resold for LOTS more than Lee & I small breeder could have gotten.. The horses that we kept were shown at tough AMHA shows to champion levels then retired to breeding.................................... Also I have seen what I would call pet quality mares on *big farms * being bred to a well advertised nice stallion but I am here to tell you that NOT every foal sired by that stallion was nice. Dozens of foals running around & several were not what I would call show quallity. These *big * farms need to take on breeder responsibility also - how many of you know of the numerous pet quality foals that were taken to auctions from BIG farms to get them out of sight.  ........ AND these *big* farms need to quit pushing off these mediocre horses as breeding quality JUST to make a dollar.... Through the years Lee & I have seen & helped newbies resell horses that they were sold as quality breeding horses by trusted  *BIG* time well advertised breeders...... I have seen dozens of mares bred to a well shown champion stallion who threw a certain fault in several of his foals... If a new buyer cannot trust what he/she is being told by a so called respectable breeder then HOW are they suppose to learn................... Small breeder -* BIG * breeder the responsibility belongs to everyone............ ALL breeders need to stop trying to make a dollar at the expense of honesty & integrity or the problem is going to exist.......... Guess I've seen too much small farm bashing when in reality fingers can be pointed to several *big * breeders who are doing the same.


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## Cathy_H (May 12, 2006)

Deleted as computer burped & posted twice


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## Marty (May 12, 2006)

Ok it's been a long week and I'm cranky and tired and haven't posted hardly much at all so here's my view:

I think a lot of you guys are being quite full of yourselves here lately.

I must be modest or humble or just plain dumb but I wouldn't be so condesending.

Am I the only one here that is in agreement with Rocking R ??? She had the guts to say out loud what I'll bet a lot of us little guys here are thinking. I say CHEERS to you Rocking R.

And by the way, my stallion's sire is a Reserve National Champion but he's not and never will be. NO. But he's good enough for me and my life. We also don't show and heck, we can't even make it out the back door to get to one. I don't have the $ to be hauling to shows, because I choose to pay my bills and dump that money into my horse's care. I also don't pay a trainer with a name, I also will not participate in a bunch backbiting politics out there, so why can't some of you guys just lighten up a little bit and not always assume that just because you don't see some of us out there, that we have some kind of low cost ecomony pets in our barn.

Now that being said I'd like to draw your attention to some of the broodmares I've seen. Been to some farms the past few years here and there. My goodness. I'd be ashamed to be giving a tour to people with some of the conditions these horses are living in. Seems that some of the big guys out there are using some broodmares that I wouldn't think of using; super cow hocks, crooked legs in front too, and yep, I even saw one with an off bite that was so off it was pitiful. Horses that are wormy as homemade sin, not seen a farrier in months, papers that are all messed up, and no real time or money dumped into them or their upkeep so shame on them so you know what they can do with their big fancy name? . And oh my, here I was all worried that one of my horses has a back that I wish was 2 inches shorter and a tail that should be an inch higher. So please please don't assume that we are all barn blind and have lesser quality horses than you do.

Told you I was cranky.

I just want you guys to see both sides of the coin here and be a little bit more understanding.


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## capall beag (May 12, 2006)

Although I agree with the basic point of the poster of this topic I do feel that Cathy H said exactly what I feel!!

I don't think it is the small breeder or the many small breeders who are sabotaging the miniature horse I think it is greedy bigger names who have paid HUGE sums of money for their studs and although they claim will only be bred to a 'few select mares", when push comes to shove they will breed to all sorts of quality if mares because they are in business and they need to recoupe their expenses and make money!!!!

If the big name farms sold all mediocre colts already gelded this HUGE problem of too many average stallions in the market would shrink considerably..........I highly doubt you will see this any time soon!!

It seems to me that the people who are most concerned about improving the miniature horse, many who have posted on this thread, are small time breeders!!

Definately hats off to them but I don't think it is the $500 stallion that is ruining the market for mini's. It is the $10,000 colt that was sold as a stallion prospect and turns up with stifle problems that are covered up to avoid loosing out on the investment.......this is just a hypothetical example not pointing a finger




:

Obviousl;y just MHO


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## Minimor (May 12, 2006)

Oh, well said Marty!

I know people that go out & buy some fancy, well bred, very expensive stallion. Then they breed him to anything & everything. They've even gone to some big name farms & bought some mares that look fancy on paper, but when you look at the horse you certainly don't see that fancy pedigree. "I paid a lot for her so her foals have to be worth big bucks" Umm hmm.

Why do people keep mediocre stallions for breeding? Same reason they keep mediocre mares for breeding. The foals sell. If people keep buying the offspring, the owner keeps breeding the horses. The foals are little, or colorful....or whatever selling features they may have. I've also seen some pretty fancy, nice looking, show champion stallions that are putting some pretty poor quality foals on the ground. Show record or no, fancy pedigree or no, if the stallion can't sire quality foals he shouldn't be breeding either.

We're really not raising and selling horses here. I just don't like to part with the foals. We're cutting back on a few of our mares and are selling off a gelding here & there and then will keep the rest. Our stallion isn't perfect, but he's nice, he can move, and he's siring foals nicer than himself. He's well bred, but not real fancy on paper--the names are there, but a couple or 3 generations back. The foals we've raised from him are exactly what we want, and if we had to buy them elsewhere, we wouldn't have afforded them. We carefully picked a few mares & got some excellent crosses. We have tried sending mares out for breeding, and wouldn't do it again. In one instance it was fine, but otherwise... :no: I won't go into any details here.

I've had people tell me that I should be showing some of these Ice Man foals, even take them to nationals, as they would be competitive. Well, it won't happen this year. Our local show was cancelled. I was invited to haul along with a friend to a big show or two in the US but I turned that down a couple days ago. I'm on a careful budget here, and now am faced with replacing my septic field this summer. Since I'll need the money for that, I can't justify spending the $$ it would take to go showing this summer. My friend told me it would be so much fun. I said yes, it would, but come winter time it wouldn't be too much fun out here to have no sewer!!! So, if anyone wants to think that because we aren't showing we have less than good quality horses, that's fine. :lol:

Really, it's to each his own and if people are happy with the horses they've got--and people are buying the foals they produce--I guess it's not up to the rest of us to point fingers and decide which stallions should or shouldn't be breeding.



> Definately hats off to them but I don't think it is the $500 stallion that is ruining the market for mini's. It is the $10,000 colt that was sold as a stallion prospect and turns up with stifle problems that are covered up to avoid loosing out on the investment.......


 You've got that right too!


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## SmoothEZ (May 12, 2006)

First off let me clarify that my original post was not directed to any one person or horse that I have seen on the forum. As a matter of fact if you asked me what photos I have seen recently on the board I couldn't tell you. The only horse that I can remember from the posts on this forum was a colt that was foaled in Australia and I emailed the owner and told her that her foal was one of the most spectacular foals I have ever seen. I personnally do not have any minis but did have several and was a trainer about 7 - 8 years ago.

Second I would like to commend those of you that had the insight to look deep into your herd and make the decision to geld that horse and not continue to breed him. Just because you geld a horse does not mean you love them any less. What is does mean is that you thought enough about your horse to relieve the animal from going through the hormone balances that they go through when a mare is in season. I have seen some of the most docile stallions become real idiots when they are around cycling mares. Think for a minute, put yourself in the place of that stallion that is around mares all day that come and go out of season and he is denied that very lowest level of instinct.

I also agree that just because a horse is not a winner in a confirmation class that he can not be a winner in a performance class, but lets think a minute on that one. Ones confirmation sets the tone for ones performance. You can take a horse with a low set neck and expect to have the perfect head set in a driving class, that horse will always be out shined by one whose neck line is set more toward the standard.

I am also not saying that only stallions with a show record should be kept as stallions. What I am saying is that if you think your stallion can stand with the best of them then maybe just maybe they should be kept as a stallion. But if you main goal is not the breed better, then your intentions may be off key.

Let me ask you this, is your dog neutered? If so why did you neuter him? Is it because you didn't want a thousand puppies around or you just want one good dog that you can love and nurture.

I also agree that mares are 50% of the problem with the resulting foals, that being said maybe some mare should not be bred either. I just think that as a breed we all need to look long and hard at what we are trying to achieve and put in place a program that will help us achieve our goals.

I am sorry if I ticked off a couple of people but I just think that this is a subject that we have tiptoed around for too long.

JMHO


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## slaneyrose (May 12, 2006)

_Really, it's to each his own and if people are happy with the horses they've got--and people are buying the foals they produce--I guess it's not up to the rest of us to point fingers and decide which stallions should or shouldn't be breeding._

:aktion033: :aktion033: absolutely!!!

I also dont agree that a "champion" stallion will ALWAYS produce "champion" foals, even with the same mare. thats not reality. I have a stallion that wins a lot at shows and is highly regarded here but he doesnt ALWAYS have winning offspring. A couple of his foals are pet quality but they make excellent pets because I also breed for temperament and think that is very important too. On the other hand he does also produce foals that go on to do really well in the show ring but I cant say every single foal he has its top notch because that isnt true....and I dont believe that to be true of any stallion.

Also I agree with what has been said about big name farms or people who advertise their farm on a large scale but who would sell their not so first class or even seriously faulted youngsters off at auctions or to dealers to end up goodness knows where just to cover up and then hold up the nice ones as the only thing they produce. These breeders need to take responsibility cos those "hidden" ones fall into unknowledgeable hands and serious faults are perpetuated. That is the case in U.K and Ireland anyway.


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## littlearab (May 12, 2006)

I believe it's because many do not know what a well put together horse really looks like. They see cute, color and personality and forget the poor legs or big head.

I also see many mares being bred that would not be if they were normal size horses. I think people forget that the mare is 75% of the foal.....(MHO) she raises it so they get more from her. Such as how they act to a point. You can not get pearl out of sows ear. So why do people think a poor mares will produce a nice foal?? Even if they are bred to the best stallion around they are still at least 1/2 her.

But in the end it's all up to the person who owns the horse.

I would also like to reply to this...



> I often look at breeders websites, especially when they post pictures of their beautiful foals. I look at the stallions. the foals, the for sale page, and then I get to the mares pages. I wonder why they sell all the foals with their farm names and keep mares that have other farm names on them. I would think if you are making crosses that produce better foals that you would keep most of them until most of your mares have your farm name.


I do not keep fillies to replace my mares because

1) I do not have a place ot keep them alone for 3 years.

2) All my mares are 8 or under and I do not want to have anymore mares.

3) Why would one have to keep fillies to replace good mares??

When mares age and if I decide to keep breeding I will be keeping fillies by then I will be set up for them.

I do not mind the ? just wanted to give my reason for not keeping fillies.



:


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 12, 2006)

KanoasDestiny said:


> I am really confused here!!! It all started earlier this week, when I saw a post on here where a forum member stated that her stud may be throwing locking stifles. A GREAT majority of the people I usually see post about the "betterment of the breed", told her that in no way should she geld her horse and that they would be honored to have a foal by him. In fact...I think only 3 members were honest and said that they would not buy a foal of his.
> 
> What gives? I understand that he is a gorgeous horse (I have told her that myself) and I personally would have no problem buying one of his foals (my filly was born with a bad bite and in no way is she unworthy to me), but I have also never passed judgement onto other people's horses and told them that they are only mediocre. To me, if you are interested in the betterment of the breed, then this stallion, regardless of how beautiful he is, would be a big no no to breed. I think a lot of people are being biased here.
> 
> I saw another member ask to have their horse critiqued on here yesterday. To me, there was no difference of the before picture (where apparetnly a year ago, you told her he was not breeding material) and the pictures that were current. Appearence doesn't change the fact of whether he should be bred or not. If he had flaws a year ago, wouldn't he just be a flawed horse in general where breeding is concerned? Or if he is good enough to breed now, wouldn't he have still had the same genes last year? By the way, to me, he was very pretty in before and after pics.



You know for a newbie.. this is a very observant post



:



:

I think the problem is a nice horse is a very subjective term to many I will admit i have bred some icky horses looking back now at the horses I owned 8 -10 years ago OMG EWWWWW

I learned alot over the years and my mistake was simple- breeding before I was informed enough. My answer is simple making sure I do my best to not be barn blind, never thinking a ribbon won means the horse doesnt have the flaws he does - it means only that the judge felt those flaws were a bit less important then someone elses flaws.

Being able to truly see what is in front of me and doing my best to let my ego not get the best of me so that I can see what is really there and then... doing something about making needed changes or choosing not to breed.


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## KanoasDestiny (May 12, 2006)

Lisa, thank you for understanding my post! I posted the other one too on the other thread, not to get opinions on MY filly, but basically just for anyone's mare. I didn't mean to get anyone upset or try to be deceitful, but I know a couple other members (who contacted me via PM) felt the same as I did on that thread, and wanted to know how normal non breeders are supposed to go about getting their mares bred if breeders feel not just any stud will do. Where do they have left to turn if "breeders" don't feel their mare is worthy?


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## Gizzmoe (May 12, 2006)

rockin r said:


> I may not have TOP quality horses, and I am not barn blind either. But, I can not afford to have $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$ horses. The horses I do have I paid a price for. If I want to breed them I will. I do not sell them and I only have one or two a year. I have only what I can afford to keep and keep well. I don't breed just to sell them. They are better taken care than I take of myself. For me it is the love of the horses and their companionship that I got into minis. I am of no threat to you BIG breeders, and some of the horses from BIG names, that everyone druels over in my opionion, well I'll keep that to myself. Not to be mean but (it hurts don't it!!!)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to agree with what Rockin R said. My stallion that I currently own isnt 100% but no horse is. He still is rather correct considering and makes one heck of a driving/performance horse. He even has a great disposition to boot. I have bred him once but am not even sure the mare took as she was sold soon thereafter. Yes I am planning on breeding him again in the future to a quality mare, any foals bred would be with the intention of keeping. As far as big horses go I know a lady who has a black arab stallion she is breeding to less then mediocre mares and the stud isn't correct himself. Says he has good breeding and the extreme swayback he has is from being ridden young.



: On a different note though most people judge minis on the arab type so when a QH type mini has a thicker neck then that of an arab type, so many people say you need to sweat it etc. Or comment that he is too thick or whatever. As someone else said we all have our likes and dislikes.

Excuse his feet they were in dire need of a trim when this pic was taken


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## EAD Minis (May 12, 2006)

*I agree some people do have off taste in stallions, but alot of people have gorgeous horses who can obviously contribute to the mini breed. I know Roy isnt National quality (he is a gelding) but I personaly think he is beautiful and means more to me then owning THE buckaroo ever would (but he is gorgeous) and I do like showing him because its fun.I dont go out there to win it all just giving him somthing exciting to see and do and also gain expereience for myself.And i agree with barn Bum on the small breeder does not = pet quality.Some breeders have only 4 mares and awsome stallions.Just my opinion.*


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## nootka (May 12, 2006)

Ok, about the weak hip/slack hind end: Yeah, feed will help fill out the skinny ones, but it will not change poor angles nor will it change a low tail set. It accentuates something when they're skinny b/c you can see bone structure. Not going to go farther with it b/c I don't think ppl really like critiques.

I don't mind 'em. I post my horses from time to time and invite honest, knowledgeable critiques.

Sometimes they see things I don't, but most of the time, I'm pretty aware of the shortcomings.

NO horse is perfect, but when 90% of the breed is of a certain "type" I am pretty sure there dont' need to be thousands more bred for color, cuteness, sentiment, whatever.

Not all mares should be bred, but isn't that more of a reason why those stallions should be that much more outstanding than the average?

It's far more economically sound to take your "so so" mare to a really outstanding stallion than another "so so" one. *shrugs* Not to mention, why not have the most beautiful foal you can?

Yes, beauty's in the eye of the beholder, but soundness and good conformation is pretty objective.

All the condition in the world is not going to change my opinion. Yes, a horse looks better b/c he's more fit, but it remains that the original shortcomings are there. Just my opinion.

Liz M.


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## CharmedMinis (May 12, 2006)

Good Job Everyone On Great Thoughtful Posts!!!



:

A couple of things I want to point out.

One being photographs. Most of us "small time breeders" don't have professionally done enhanced photographs of our horses, which means our horses don't look as good as the ones that are all glammed up do!

I have 2 extremely nice stallions. I consider myself a pretty good photographer........but every visitor I've ever had here at the farm to see my horses has told me, "Wow your stallions are 100 times better than their pictures show them."

On to the next point........showing!

Do I show, NO! Would my stallions be national champions, possibly they could be.

One of my stallions was purchased by his previous owner for large sum of money and went on to win numerous titles and is 1 point shy of his hall of fame.

My other stallion showed as a weanling and did well but hasn't shown since. He is extremely conformationally correct but has no presence, instead he has the nicest disposition on the place and I wouldn't trade it for anything.

Both of these stallions could clean up in the show ring if I took the time to get them ready, or paid someone to do it for me.

I say this because, I went to the World show last year. Every horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck. And we all know there are some people out there that also do horrible types of surgeries and stuff to altar what's natural to a particular horse.

Other than the surgeries, I have no problem with any of it, but I won't myself do it to any of my horses. So if I were to take my stallions to a show as they are right now, no they probably wouldn't win much of anything, and that's fine by me.



:


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## Minimor (May 13, 2006)

> It's far more economically sound to take your "so so" mare to a really outstanding stallion than another "so so" one. *shrugs* Not to mention, why not have the most beautiful foal you can?


In terms of stud fee, I would have to say "only to a point". If the resulting foal is to be for the mare owner's personal use and enjoyment, and if that owner has the money to spend, then I guess the sky is the limit on stud fees for a so-so mare--breed her to the very best stallion & perhaps you will get the horse of your dreams. If the resulting foal is meant to be for sale, though, then I believe there are limits to what should be spent on a stud fee. That limit does depend on the mare; there are some mares that probably are not ever going to produce an outstanding foal no matter what stallion they are bred to. Others may, if crossed on the right stallion, out do themselves by far in the resulting foal.
Years back in the Morgan world breeders had kind of a rule of thumb when it came to paying a stud fee to breed a mare--any mare. They said that the stud fee paid for breeding any mare should not be more than half the price you would expect to get for the resulting foal. I think I got that right--I'm tired and out of touch & it's been a long time now since I've heard this discussed, but I think that's what it was!



: Really, it does make sense. Unless you lucked into the deal of the decade, if you've got a $500 or $800 mare that is absolutely so-so quality, what is a realistic amount to spend on a stud fee, assuming that your intention is to sell the foal? Is that mare going to give you a $3000 foal if you pay $1500 for the stud fee? Or a $6000 foal if you pay $3000 for the stud fee? Or are you going to pay $1500 for the stud fee, then come up with a colt that you can't even get $1000 for? Or are you happy to pay $1500 for the stud fee and then sell the foal for $1600? In many cases I believe it's more a case of breeding the mare to the stallion that is right for her, rather than to the very best stallion that money can buy.


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## tagalong (May 13, 2006)

> I think a lot of you guys are being quite full of yourselves here lately.


And I think *that^^^* was a rather RUDE thing to say when people are merely sharing their opinions and observations.

I expect that anyone sharing _your_ exact opinion would _not_ be full of themselves... or uppity... or whatever other comment you might come up with. _*sigh*_

You know - this is a message board - a _forum_ (look up the definition) - and differing opinions expressed _without_ insults are how such things work..... fascinating concept, that.



:

There are mediocre - and just plain POOR - stallions out there who should not be. It does not matter what their relatives did - or what their lines are or what BIG or SMALL breeder they came from. The _individual _ should be considered. There are many stallions of famous "lines" out there who would make excellent geldings... and relative unknowns who may be awesome.

And "type" need not enter into it... you do not want a QH type with a goose rump, upright pasterns, a thick throatlatch or a neck that is on upside-down any more than you would want an Arabian type to show those obvious flaws. Basic conformation points apply to all types - no matter what "style".

How sad that "gelding" is still seen as somewhat of a bad word in the miniature horse world - when they are the mainstay of most other breeds, performance-wise. A recent thread here where a discussion of gelding was taken as an insult by one poster was a case in point....

But hey - I guess I am just being "full of myself".....



:

ETA:

I agree, *nootka*... muscling, conditioning and fat can change an _outline_ to a certain extent - but the _structure_ beneath it - the length of hip, the angles, the tailset... cannot be changed. No more than painting your house a different colour or adding shrubbery can fix the fact that the foundation is out of whack...



:



> Every horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck.


And _none_ of that can alter the structure or how that horse is put together. No matter how sweated, groomed or clipped - the quality - or lack thereof - shows.


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## nootka (May 13, 2006)

tagalong, I'm glad you understood what I was trying to say.

A skinny horse always looks bad to me, but it just makes it easier to see what's off about them. When they fill out, it's a bit harder to see, but you can still see where those bones go and that is what makes a horse made poorly in the beginning.

A horse that is conditioned and well cared for always looks better, but doesn't mean it has genetics that make it the next "sire of perfection".

There are SO MANY beautiful stallions out there, and in a very reasonable price range, stud fee wise.

It's kind of fun to shop and look at the foals born each year, and pick out a pretty one with a nice color in the gender you want. Not that I'm shopping! *LOL*

Gelding is in no way a dirty word, here. I'm having a great time with Mouse, my gelding. Kyan is seeing the vet on Monday. 

Liz M.


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## rabbitsfizz (May 13, 2006)

To start with one point:-

The BMHS has never closed it's books, therefore did not have to "open" them because the gene pool was too small.

We now only hardship in horses that are not from two registered parents BUT the hardship facility has always been there and will be for some time to come.

Our horses are improving by leaps and bounds but are far from perfect and the indiscriminate importing by some people just looking for a fast buck, has done nothing to help the situation whatsoever.

To this end it is now very expensive to register an American import- of all the horses put forward for hard shipping I am very sorry to say that these have been the most disappointing.

I know this is mostly down to the greed of the people importing them, rather than the true standard of the "breed", but it gives a very poor picture.

Some people have been selling shed fulls of second rate American horses and exporting them to the UK, and no doubt laughing all the way to the bank.

At this end, absolutely no better IMO some people have been buying up these horses and selling them on for top dollar as "Genuine American" Horses.

This is very disappointing all round.

Please, it's about time we had some really GOOD imports, we are way past needing the second best.

And then, quietly, in the background, you have a few breeders like me, patiently breeding the very best that they can, doing slightly more than our fair share of winning, and getting consistently good results in our breeding programmes.

I am currently into my fifth generation of home bred animals- I do not have a mare on the place that has not got my Farm Name on it, whose mother , grandmother and great grandmother has my Farm name on it.

Stallions I do buy in, although when recently I went to buy one the only one I could find that lived up to my expectations had been bred by me!!

I have a very, very nice colt here at the moment, owned by a friend, (and if she would PLEASE get off her butt and get him registered he will do very well in the show ring!!!!!) but, again, he is by a Stallion I bred out of a mare I bred.

I am sure there is some very nice stock out there somewhere- I just have not found it yet!!

As to taking my mares to Stud- Yes I have done that, there is one very nice stallion here whose owner was kind enough to breed a mare for me, at a very reasonable stud fee, but that and two others is just about it.

I am royally fed up with mediocre stallions.

To the back teeth.

Can your tell



??

I have three absolutely top class stallions, all under 30" and all my breeding.

I really do need a top class, unrelated, stallion.

And I cannot find one, not to buy, anyway.


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## [email protected] (May 13, 2006)

It's always the other breeder that is breeding the wrong minis isn't it? The big breeders blame the backyard breeder, the backyard or small breeder blame the big guys - well you know what we're all responsible for every mini we breed!

If one breeder has one hundred good to great foals and one hundred breeders each have one mediocre to good foal - where is the problem? (And yes the situation can be reversed).

I always see people say they're only breeding for themselves - well what if you get sick or die - those minis will end up on the market! I don't like that attitude any better than the big breeder that breeds any mare that is over 2 that has a working uterus! You should most definitely breed what you like, but some adherence to the breed standard is called for!

Education is the ticket there. Most breeders do not educate buyers on what makes a good breeding horse. I'm as guilty of that as anyone in my first few years - bad advice given to me was passed along to others. Mentoring newbies would be great for those that do truly want to learn and want to breed better minis.

Personally, I've been trying - gelding some stallions, pet homes for mares or retiring them. Last week I bought back a colt that should have been sold as a gelding four years ago, but wasn't. Well he's here and getting gelded soon. I've gelding some of the boys that just aren't meeting my criteria for breeding (we have three more coming up), including one that his foals just aren't floating my boat. I'm also holding off on breeding our mares. They will be bred when they're 4 years old or later.

But as to critiquing horse's via a photo - no way! It is hard to judge a horse or horses by photos - how many of us would like to be judged by our high school graduation photo or driver's license photo or candid shot? It really is important from a marketing standpoint to have great photos of stallions - I'm very guilty of having crap photos of mine. It just hasn't been in the budget, but we're working on it this year too. The professional photos are really worth the money.

As for this statement -

_If you want to know how your horse will perform in a confirmation class then go to the top breeding and training websites and compare you animals to what you see on their websites and if you can not honestly say that your horse can stand along side their horses in the show ring and you would not be embarrased to be there then maybe just maybe you have something. But if you are embarrased then it is time to geld. Sorry now it is time for me to step down off my Sounding Platform._

In a conformation class, 9 out of 10 times it is the talent of the trainer (professional or otherwise) to bring out the best in that horse - not that they could necessarily take a crap horse in and win, but I've seen horses shown by their owners, place higher (and no I'm not saying it was the judges) it really was the trainers ability to get the most out of that individual. That is their job and they should be able to do that or they shouldn't be getting paid!

I know when visitors come here - the individuals that we have clipped, conditioned, etc., are the ones they go 'oh' over - not that that horse is better he just looks better at that moment. One of my stallions will never look great as a previous owner allowed his crest to break, so he always looks funny. Right now he's greyhound thin from pacing the fence (mares not food on the brain) and I told someone here the other day that he looked like a feedlot horse to me. Fortunately she liked his two foal crops we've had from him, and she bought a mare in foal to him and wants to breed back another.

That is my criteria for a good stallion what he can add to our breeding program!


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## rabbitsfizz (May 13, 2006)

:aktion033: That is my criteria for a good stallion what he can add to our breeding program!

:aktion033:

Michelle- ABSOLUTELY!!

Any stallion, however perfect, is only as good as his performance in the breeding shed!!

I have one mare here who I could never sell as her only worth is on the foals she breeds- to look at her, you would not, apart from her lovely head, give her a second glance!!

Now, I would not use her if she were a stallion, it's true, but

Handsome is as Handsome does.

If he cannot produce the goods it does not matter how well he has done in the ring




:


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)

Okay, probably I need another cup of coffee but several people here have basically said your horses might be National Champion material but you don't want to show. Really? If you really think that then I think you'd put your horse where your mouth is. It's easy to brag about your stallion's quality when you know you're not really going to put him in a position to prove it.


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)

I take it black.






I know there are quality horses that never enter the show ring, however, I do think if some of the people who elude that their horses might be National Champion caliber really believed it, they'd show the horse. Actually, if the horse did go National Champion, they could easily recoup that season's show expenses by breeding him to a couple outside mares. So, basically, they could float that horse a loan and he could pay them back if he really was such amazing quality.


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## CharmedMinis (May 13, 2006)

> QUOTEEvery horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck.
> 
> And none of that can alter the structure or how that horse is put together. No matter how sweated, groomed or clipped - the quality - or lack thereof - shows.


Tagalong-- The point I was trying to make is that my stallions could probably clean up in the show ring if they were conditioned for it. The way they are right now out in my barn they wouldn't win much up against those who have been conditioned. My stallions are both correct, the one has a great show record to prove it, but right now they both have thick manes, their necks aren't sweated, bellies aren't perfectly tucked, they are lacking muscle in the right places, etc........so they aren't showing themselves to their best advantage.

Michelle said some of it better when she said:



> In a conformation class, 9 out of 10 times it is the talent of the trainer (professional or otherwise) to bring out the best in that horse - not that they could necessarily take a crap horse in and win, but I've seen horses shown by their owners, place higher (and no I'm not saying it was the judges) it really was the trainers ability to get the most out of that individual. That is their job and they should be able to do that or they shouldn't be getting paid!


Jill I don't show for many reasons........

It's expensive as all



: and to me basically it's throw away money, unless you are planning on going to World/Nationals and are really trying to make a living at this. There is no pay back, it's more hobby money that I just don't have, especially with the vet bills I've had lately. We only have one good show here locally a year, not really enough to qualify for World and then world is another expense. I do everything here myself, and in the beginning planned on showing, but I just don't have time for conditioning every day, bathing, clipping perfectly, yadda yadda yadda. It's not that I don't think my stallions could win if I got them into shape, it's just that point blank, I DON'T WANT TO! It makes me sound lazy, but it's too much work and more sleepless nights!!!


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## minisch (May 13, 2006)

AMEN !!

I believe that the "nice" responses are just perpetuating the problem and these people will continue to breed mediocre horses if we continue to tell them (because we are nice people) that they have nice horses.

I could go on my usual rant when it comes to this subject



:


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)

> Jill I don't show for many reasons........
> 
> It's expensive as all
> 
> ...


I understand it is expensive, and it is A LOT of work. For me, the real "expense" is my time into conditioning and the time away from home when I do show. I can relate that there are considerations including time and money. However, if a person thinks they have a National Champion caliber horse, my God, doesn't that inspire a great deal of motivation? If they really, truly think that's what is in their barn?


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)




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## Annetta (May 13, 2006)

> I do think if some of the people who elude that their horses might be National Champion caliber really believed it, they'd show the horse. Actually, if the horse did go National Champion, they could easily recoup that season's show expenses by breeding him to a couple outside mares. So, basically, they could float that horse a loan and he could pay them back if he really was such amazing quality.


Really, Jill, do you have any concept of what it means to have no extra money? I don't think you do! There are people who have no investments that they can cash in to get some extra fun money--when they say they have no money, they mean they have no money, they don't mean that they have no money unless they go to the bank and transfer some money from savings into their chequing account. No money means no money & I find that many people can't comprehend that. I've been there. I not have a "rainy day fund" that I can dip into if I need some costly veterinary work, or if my car breaks down, or if my well packs it in. My credit is good so I can get work done even if the cost of the work exceeds the balance in my rainy day fund. Everyone and everything is well looked after here. Would I spend that rainy day fund to take horses to the big shows? Hardly. I know people that can put all the hauling/show expenses on a charge card, then after the show work extra shifts to pay off the charge card quickly. Personally I don't have that option. I have a salary job, no extra shifts, no over time pay, no holiday bonuses. When I charge things I can't afford, those charges stay on my card for a long time until I get them whittled down.
Do I have horses I think ar national quality? Don't know--I don't much think about it. They're all nice horses, but I own them for me and any I raise are pretty much for me--and in saying that I in no way mean that I'm not raising quality, I do know how to judge horses & don't go for poorly conformed ones! If for some reason, Michelle, my horses had to be sold, they wouldn't be a detriment to the Miniature breed.



: Who knows what some of them might do if I were to place them with a big name trainer. With me showing them, no, I don't imagine they'd go all that far, because my heart really isn't in showing.

I have been to a lot of shows, including R nationals one year, and I have visited a lot of farms and seen a lot of horses. Leaving my own horses out of it completely, Jill, I have to say that there are quality horses out there that have never seen the show ring and probably never will. If these horses were to be shown, assuming they were properly conditioned & presented, I personally believe they could make names for themselves. I always find it so snobbish when people state, like you have here, that if a horse were truly worth showing as the owner claims it is, then the owner would be showing it.



: Sometimes, it just isn't that easy!


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)

Why would someone with no money have something as un-essensial and luxurious as a HORSE?

Over the years, I have been floored to read people here going on about things such as vehicles being repossessed, yet they own horses.

If I had no extra money, I would not have horses period. And, trust me, I do not have money coming out my ears and I know what it's like to not have the money to do everything you would like to do. I think just about everyone does.

I actually said that I know there are show quality horses who will not ever show. I may even own a few of those. However, it is awful easy to elude that you have a National Champion quality horse when you know you will not ever be in a position to prove it.

Really, I am not trying to be elitist at all. There are people here who own horses finer than those I will probably ever own. But, I just cannot stand it when people with average type horses sit back and blow smoke about what that horse would do if it ever went to a show.

I am thinking just as much about people I speak to personally as some of what I have read here over the years.


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## Annetta (May 13, 2006)

ha ha, for someone that doesn't want to be elitist, you're doing a fine job now IMO.

Why would someone one with no money have horses? Hm, perhaps some have no money to spare because they have horses?? Personally speaking, my horses are my chosen hobby. They get looked after, and like I said in my earlier post, I do have a fund for emergencies. My careful budget covers the routine things like hay, feed, barnyard upkeep. There isn't necessarily extra money for buying more horses, no matter how much one may take my fancy, nor is there money to spare for hauling 1000 miles to a show, nor for training fees to get a couple horses "out there" to show. I don't go on holidays--no ski trips, no cruises, nowhere. Instead my "holiday" consists of a couple weeks off of work, staying home & spending extra time driving my horses around the country side.

But now you're saying that because I (and others like me) have no money for showing in the big time that I (we) shouldn't have horses at all? And that Oh come on, that is the most snobbish thing I've heard on here in a long, long time. Yeesh. "No money" doesn't mean I'm having my car repossessed, or that my animals are starving, or that my kids are going to school barefoot with no lunch.



:


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)

Um, no, I didn't say that people who have no money for showing shouldn't have horses. I'm saying if someone has no extra money, they probably shouldn't have horses.

Just thinking back on many of your other posts on this board, I have to say that horses are not your only hobby





If you honestly read what I said, I don't see where there is room for the kind of interpretations you are drawing.


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## Danielle_E. (May 13, 2006)

This is a very interesting thread and here are my two cents worth.

I am sorry I agree with many that "some" of the stallions that I have seen my reaction has been "why are they using him as a stallion?". Now in all fairness to some posting these pictures of very "hairy" stallions, I usually sit back after my initial reaction and try and picture the horse cleaned up and clipped to see if I am missing something. Sometimes I can see the quality there and sometimes unfortunately it's not there and my initial reaction is the same. Now having said that I have two stallions, one of which I believe is "Nationals" quality in his conformation and movement, the other is not, but I am not barn blind to this. He is "cute" and his conformation is "good" but he doesn't have the "motion" the other one has BUT that is where you have to balance things out in the breeding shed and ensure that a sutd like that is used on a mare that compliments him. I believe that some that are breeding aren't looking enough to "enhancing" the breed by choosing a partner for the stallion that will give the "added" qualities you are looking for. Breeding just for the sake of breeding is not what I am looking to do and that is why I am picky as to who gets bred to who. I plan on breeding Crystal, my Hawk daughter to my stallion "Dancer" and that combination should be a very well bred foal with "motion" to burn. Abby has been bred to my other stallion and she is expecting a foal anytime and I am anxious to see the cross that will be produced. Abby is a beautiful mare with "arabian" style, high trot and tail carriage.... It's unfortunate but Abby doesn't like my other stallion Dancer at all!!! So I won't be breeding her to him even though I know that the resulting foal would be wonderful. So, once her foal is on the ground I will evaluate the foal and see if this stallion crossed with an great mare can produce what I want. If it's not what I want then I will be gelding that stallion and keeping just the one for now and will look to buy another stallion. I think it all boils down to what you are trying to accomplish with your breeding program. Some wish to produce foals that are healthy, correct and geared more to famlies that wish to take them to local shows and have fun and perhaps win in that forum and I think that's great. Others are wanting to try and produce the next "National" champion and that is great to. What I don't agree with is those that are breeding LARGE foal crops with horses that are known to have genetic problems and please notice the word "knowing". If you knowingly are breeding a stallion that "consistently" produces a problem then that stallion should be gelded immediately because then the individual is guilty, in my eyes, of not having the best interest of the breed at heart and basically it becomes a "profit" business only.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 13, 2006)

> Every horse there that I saw had been neck sweated and shoulder sweated, and sometimes belly sweated, and Clipped and groomed and manes trimmed just right to show off that particular horse's neck.


And _none_ of that can alter the structure or how that horse is put together. No matter how sweated, groomed or clipped - the quality - or lack thereof - shows.

Just for the record none of my horses have ever worn sweats and have shown at the National level and come hom with ribbons in Halter classes big ones at that in fact I was thinking of getting a throat latch sweat for this year but am a bit embarrassed to say I dont even know how to use one



:

and while this is a bit off subject Rabbit I dont know exactly where you are in comparison to the places with the many imported American horses I have seen and know were exported from here but to say they are disappointing? WOW I have seen some amazing horses exported. Well again perhaps a few are not but obviously quality is in the eye of the beholder what one thinks is a top stallion others may find not even to be a competitive gelding-and to me there lies the whole problem- And yes I have been part of the problem I can be honest and admit that. I was one who said no room for geldings here well now I have 4 out of 15 horses that are geldings with number 5 getting closer to being gelded each day lol

My stallion isnt the best horse out there he has flaws like every horse however.. not only has he proven he can cut in in the show ring(even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show) but his bloodlines have been proven to be consistent over and over again in the breeding shed as well.

Jill I do understand what you are saying and I am one with little money. We do 2 local shows to qualify for Nationals and save up all year to go it isnt easy.

I think I am hearing from you the frustration comes from those that have never been to a show or a big show anyway and comment on the horses at shows and such?

Bottom line is there will always be people with stallions I feel are way to icky to breed (and some might think that about mine) all you can do is educate yourself and continue to do so. LIsten to others (who you respect) opinoins and find those what will be honest with you not say what you want to hear, and be able to look at yourself in the mirror at the end of the day knowing your ego didnt get in the way of the Miniature horse breed today.


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## Margaret (May 13, 2006)

There are a few, (oldies but goodies) people on here that can provide a honest critique, on a given horse, without sugar coating it,- I have found. They know what to look for, as they have been showing alot, much of their lives. I have Pmed these people on more than one occasion, and know that they are giving me their honest opinion. Too much of the time when someone askes for a critique on the forum, the truth about conformation gets lost in all of the compliments.



:


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## wcr (May 13, 2006)

This forum is an excellent resource for all mini enthusiasts and there is a huge range in experience and abilities. Learn what you can, listen to advice and pick what works best for you.

That said, it falls to all of us to be responsible breeders. Not everyone can breed national quality foals or afford to show to that extent. I am a single woman financing my own obsessions but I have bred many top quality horses that have beat out the big guys and have been shown at top levels. That has always been my goal to breed to improve the breed.

As hard as it is to do, sometimes we need to step back from our emotions and take a good hard look at the horses we are breeding and reevaluate our goals. It costs as much to keep a good horse as it does to keep a less than quality individual. The only difference is the buying price or the breeding price if you go to outside stallions. Mare quality is greatly underrated in most breeding programs. It has always been my practice to own a few of the best quality horses I could afford. Save your money and put it in good quality stock. Educate yourself or seek the advice of someone knowledgable that you trust before paying big bucks for horses so you are not one of the people that just spend big money and get less than what you paid for.

All horses have flaws and breeding 2 top individuals doesn't gaurantee you will get the next national champion and you will have differences in quality even between full siblings. Breeding can be a crapshoot but with education and experience you can turn out some top horses that either you or a buyer can show with success.


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## tagalong (May 13, 2006)

> All horses have flaws and breeding 2 top individuals doesn't gaurantee you will get the next national champion and you will have differences in quality even between full siblings. Breeding can be a crapshoot but with education and experience you can turn out some top horses that either you or a buyer can show with success.


Exactly right...

[SIZE=18pt]*Breed the best to the best... *[/SIZE]

and _hope_ for the best.

As I said upthread... just because a horse may be "a Buckeroo!" (or any other breeding people seek) does _not_ mean that he is good...

And when low quality minis are flooding the market.... who is to blame? All of us. Not just the "big" farms... but the small breeders, too.


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## strass (May 13, 2006)

> (even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show)


Um? Can I ask for some clarification on that?


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## SmoothEZ (May 13, 2006)

Here's an idea to go along with the education of good animals. Maybe just maybe we should start posting pictures of horse (not necessarily miniature horses) but other horses that have obvious conformation flaws and let people pick out those flaws. Lets spend the time to educate the people that are not sure of what is a good tail set, or shoulder or neck set, instead of just telling people that "yes you have a nice horse" however deep down inside you look at the photo and the horse has a low tail set and is "U" necked. I know years ago one of the horse magazines used to post 3 photographs of horses, 2 were bad, 1 was good and people had to look through all the obvious conformation problems and pick out the problems and then rate the horse 1 to 3 with one being the most correct.

And for those that are new to the breed and want to get into the miniature horses, take the time to do the research and don't just jump at the first horse that is offered your way. For all the old hats take the time to mentor the new ones and show then what the breed is all about.

I think Michele Wesco said it perfectly we are all responsible for what we breed. Whether it is the next National Show Champion that is being shown or the next pet quality horse that will remain someones trusted agent for the rest of their lives. We are what we breed!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! :new_shocked:

I agree that you can not always tell alot about a horse from a photo but I can tell you most people can make a decision to either buy or not buy from a photo. You guys do it every day. That is what the sale board is for. And how many of you can honestly say that they have bought a horse from a photo and were 1000% happy with what they got?

I agree that education is the key to evaluating your herd for culls and I also agree that the problem is not with just the backyard breeder. I have seen lots and lots of horses that come from the top breeders in the country that I wouldn't pay 2 cents for. But I also agree that good training and good handling can bring out the best in a horse.

I didn't mean to start any wars on here but I am glad to see the constructive comments that are being posted and everyone has an opinion and they should all be heard. :aktion033:


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## Dallas (May 13, 2006)

Gizzmoe said:


> I have to agree with what Rockin R said. My stallion that I currently own isnt 100% but no horse is. He still is rather correct considering and makes one heck of a driving/performance horse. He even has a great disposition to boot. I have bred him once but am not even sure the mare took as she was sold soon thereafter. Yes I am planning on breeding him again in the future to a quality mare, any foals bred would be with the intention of keeping. As far as big horses go I know a lady who has a black arab stallion she is breeding to less then mediocre mares and the stud isn't correct himself. Says he has good breeding and the extreme swayback he has is from being ridden young.
> 
> 
> 
> : On a different note though most people judge minis on the arab type so when a QH type mini has a thicker neck then that of an arab type, so many people say you need to sweat it etc. Or comment that he is too thick or whatever. As someone else said we all have our likes and dislikes.


Alisa,

Thanks for telling my mom about this forum!

~Dallas


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## Mona (May 13, 2006)

> Here's an idea to go along with the education of good animals. Maybe just maybe we should start posting pictures of horse (not necessarily miniature horses) but other horses that have obvious conformation flaws and let people pick out those flaws. Lets spend the time to educate the people that are not sure of what is a good tail set, or shoulder or neck set, instead of just telling people that "yes you have a nice horse" however deep down inside you look at the photo and the horse has a low tail set and is "U" necked. I know years ago one of the horse magazines used to post 3 photographs of horses, 2 were bad, 1 was good and people had to look through all the obvious conformation problems and pick out the problems and then rate the horse 1 to 3 with one being the most correct.


Sorry, but this would be against Forum rules. It is a BIG rule that we do not post pics of someone else's horse(no matter what breed) nor do we do critiques on others horses unless asked for by the owner.

If people want to see correct conformation, or conformation flaws, there are many illustrations(drawings) showing them in books and on the internet.


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## tagalong (May 13, 2006)

*Mona* - could members post pics of their OWN horses... that they know are lacking in certain areas (whether big horse or mini)? I thought this was what *SmoothEZ* meant. If I posted decent photos of my Icelandic geldings - I would be more than happy to point out their basic flaws, for instance. And have others examine them as well.... :bgrin


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 13, 2006)

strass said:


> > (even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show)
> 
> 
> Um? Can I ask for some clarification on that?


Oops I am sorry... I meant National Junior Champion Over not your horse my mistake


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## Mona (May 13, 2006)

tagalong said:


> *Mona* - could members post pics of their OWN horses... that they know are lacking in certain areas (whether big horse or mini)? I thought this was what *SmoothEZ* meant. If I posted decent photos of my Icelandic geldings - I would be more than happy to point out their basic flaws, for instance. And have others examine them as well.... :bgrin







: Yes, of course you can. You have always been allowed to do that.


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## Danielle_E. (May 13, 2006)

Someone mentioned "sugar coating".... I would rather see someone post "honestly" their opinion with TACT AND DIPLOMACY and constructive criticism, than someone who is "RUDE" in their reply to the person requesting a critique. Being straightforward is a given but there is abolutely no need for "destructive" critique which has happened in the past on this forum and almost caused an out and out war on this forum and hurt feelings which is truly uncalled for. I find Lyn to be one of the most diplomatic people when it comes to critiquing on this board and I applaud it :aktion033:


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## Ojai Minis (May 13, 2006)

littlearab said:


> I also see many mares being bred that would not be if they were normal size horses.


I beg to differ on this one. I have seen MANY big mares AND stallions that if we are going to judge, should not be bred either. I don't think this is just a mini horse problem.

I also want to say that I have heard over and over, buy the best you can afford and go from there. Well, what if the best that I can afford is only $500 for the mediocre horse? I have paid big bucks for horses, (not blaming anyone but me.) that were only mediocre.

Just my 2 cents worth.

Liz V.


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## Feather1414 (May 13, 2006)

SmoothEZ said:


> Here's an idea to go along with the education of good animals. Maybe just maybe we should start posting pictures of horse (not necessarily miniature horses) but other horses that have obvious conformation flaws and let people pick out those flaws. Lets spend the time to educate the people that are not sure of what is a good tail set, or shoulder or neck set, instead of just telling people that "yes you have a nice horse" however deep down inside you look at the photo and the horse has a low tail set and is "U" necked. I know years ago one of the horse magazines used to post 3 photographs of horses, 2 were bad, 1 was good and people had to look through all the obvious conformation problems and pick out the problems and then rate the horse 1 to 3 with one being the most correct.
> 
> And for those that are new to the breed and want to get into the miniature horses, take the time to do the research and don't just jump at the first horse that is offered your way. For all the old hats take the time to mentor the new ones and show then what the breed is all about.
> 
> ...



AMEN!

I have no problems submitting my two boys for critiques and educational purposes.

I saved one (Peanut) from slaughter and I am absolutly amazed with his changes.

Then Dealer I bought for a performance horse and he is doing just that.

Anyways, if I were breeding minis, I can tell you right now I would be finding a nice mare, and then an nice stallion and it won't be any other way. I know my trainer right now ((not going to mention names)) bred what she considers a nice stallion to an ok mare and the baby really isn't that spectcular.

Her old stallion had nice movement, a nice body, but not only did he throw HORRIBLE heads, I mean downright awful, but he threw a dwarf and while I could tell the moment Tank came out that he was a dwarf, she was gushing about his "nice" dishy head while he actually had the severe domed head of a dwarf.

Anyways, I don't agree with her breeding program. My thoughts since I began with minis has been if you are going to breed, breed for the best and nothing less.

Another thought I have... which in my opinion is ruining the breed...

Breeding the unregistered horses, or say an AMHA stallion to an AMHR mare which produces unregisterable offspring and then selling those offspring as breedable.

I am not so concerned with mediocre stallions as I am with people breeding and selling unregistered stock. Even if you have no plans to show OR breed, you should have papers on the horse just in case. JMO.

I do agree that people do breed too much for color, heck my goal is to breed for a certain coat and eye color, but I will spend extra long looking for the perfect stallion with those traits to create a nice breeding program instead of just buying the horse I think is pretty.


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## Leeana (May 13, 2006)

Might as well throw some of my 2 cents in.

In my eyes, i think there are two types of Miniature Horse people. Pet people and show people. I think for everyone looking for that Show horse, there are 2 or 3 people looking for a pet.

Miniatures are not just about showing. I mean yes, if you have the chance to breed 2 multi-thouthand dollar horses together ...go for it. Bring home them big bucks, but not everyone is breeding for the next work champion or buckaroo.

I beleive if your a show farm breeding for top quality mini's ....geld your gelding material horses and breed your top notch horses. But otherwize you cannot control what Joe Schmo next door who just enjoys the breed and hasnt stepped foot in a show ring before is breeding for. Everyone has different goals and not everyone is breeding for Buckaroo.

I am more of a show person and have went for that 'joe schmo' person to someone who cares about bloodlines ext ext.

We all need to realize that for every 1 person looking for show prospects, i can garentee you there are 2 or 3 people looking for a mini to drive, love and enjoy.

We all have different goals.


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## shane (May 13, 2006)

Someone mentioned "sugar coating".... I would rather see someone post "honestly" their opinion with TACT AND DIPLOMACY and constructive criticism, than someone who is "RUDE" in their reply to the person requesting a critique. Being straightforward is a given but there is abolutely no need for "destructive" critique which has happened in the past on this forum and almost caused an out and out war on this forum and hurt feelings which is truly uncalled for. I find Lyn to be one of the most diplomatic people when it comes to critiquing on this board and I applaud it

I COULDNT AGREE MORE, :aktion033: I HAVE A STALLION,WHO LAST YEAR DIDNT DO VERY WELL, BUT THIS YEAR I FEEL HES IMPROVED REALLY WELL AND ITS SHOWING IN HIS RESULTS, THERES NO WAY WOULD I GELD HIM, AND HIS SIRE WAS AN IMPORT FROM AMERICA AND IS UNBEATEN AT EVERY SHOW ENTERED IN IRELAND, HE IS TOYLAND BRED, AND IF I HAD TO PAY Â£5000 FOR MY HORSE TO BUY HIM AGAIN ID DO IT IN THE BLINK OF AN EYELID,HIS SIRE COST A WHOPPING $24000 10 YEARS AGO, I THINK THE AMERICAN STALLION IMPORTS WE ARE GETTING THAT IVE SEEN ARE TOP QUALITY ,THIS IS JUST MY OPINION, IF I HAD TO DO IT AGAIN I WOULD IMPORT STRAIGHT FROM AMERICA, I WOULDNT HESITATE



:


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## rabbitsfizz (May 13, 2006)

It costs EXACTLY the same amount of money to raise a "pet" foal as it does to raise the next Grand Champion.

Why on earth would anyone bother at least not aiming for the top??

The best to the best is the only way to go.

NOT the best you happen to have.

And, honestly, the amount an animal costs only reflects the amount someone is willing to pay.

I'm afraid I am not naive enough to believe that because an animal cost a huge amount of money it is worth a huge amount of money.

Of all the vast numbers of American imports that we have had, I have seen four, maybe five that I would have really liked to have owned.

And Yes, they were quite high priced horses, but not enormously so.


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## nootka (May 13, 2006)

Why indeed would someone keep perpetuating the off proportions and inherent problems of these little horses even in a pet?

I just don't know for sure.

Even a pet may at some point be asked to pull a cart, or just to live a long and sound life free from such things as stifle surgery or extreme dental work (as opposed to routine maintenance). If we start with the most SOUND and well-balanced horse, then at least we're working towards the best interest of the horse.

I'm not even talking about bloodlines or the ring, which have nothing to do with it.

There are thousands of pets out there with soundness issues, waiting for, and needing homes.

I am betting that if I had a thousand bucks to spend, I could find myself a pretty awesome and sound pet. If I don't have that to spend on a horse, I likely don't have what it takes to care for them.

I am afraid I see the problem as education of the newer buyers.

Those mass-producing sellers are pretty much there to meet their market when they come looking for the cute little thing and noone tells them it's not breeding quality, and they don't think to ask because that's not on their minds at the time, but then they think why not and have a foal, how exciting. Well, first they have to buy a stallion and wow that one down the road with the huge mane and wild color looks great. (his legs? his teeth? his parents? Questions unasked let alone temperament)

I KNOW: I'VE BEEN THERE.

Doesn't matter what you're breeding for as far as "type" and "type" to me is quite subjective:

look at the horse as if you are a judge in a halter class. Overall correctness is first on the checklist and cry all you want about "politics" but 8/10 times I'd say the judges are right about correctness and quality if not type as they all have a different type they like. The other part of the time, I just don't know what they're thinking unless it's favoritism, and it's fairly rare (favoritism), IMHO.

Education is the only way to get the end result we all need: a larger majority of correctly conformed and well proportioned little horses. Opinion is secondary and arbitrary. Correctness is not. I defer to many who are more experienced than I in determining the former though I will always express the latter and usually not very succinctly.

Liz M.


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## Margaret (May 13, 2006)

OOps sorry Danniel, I did not intend for it to sound like that..I too appreciate tact and diplomacy in the way a horse is critiqued.. All I was trying to get across is that if someone is wanting a honest critique it may be better for them to get one thru a reputable member of this forum, via PM style. This way all the confusion of different opinions on what looks good, as opposed to what is conformationally acceptable is eliminated, and the horse can be truthfully evaluated.. I too agree that Lyn has a good eye on what are a horses strengths and weaknesses., and have sought her opinions before..



:


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## Tobey (May 13, 2006)

Boy after reading this I feel like I have to defend myself because I do not show.

Personally, yes I believe my stallion is awesome. Could he be a National Grand Champion? I don't know - I would love to have him shown but I don't have the money to show - is that a bad thing? I don't think so. Last year he was accepted by a very well known trainer to be shown but we decided not to send him because of the money. I take wonderful care of my animals, and just because I don't have more thousands of dollars for showing and traveling that doesn't make me a bad person or a bad breeder. I do only breed one or two a year and am very much looking to help improve the bred also. I cannot get the big dollars like those that have the big names out there. I don't think because a horse sells for X amount of dollars means they are the best conformation.


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## strass (May 13, 2006)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> strass said:
> 
> 
> > > (even beating the National Grand Over stallion in a local show)
> ...


Thank you. I remember watching your stallion(Paco)'s class at Nationals. From what I can remember, he looked pretty goodâ€¦that whole class did. Placing 3rd in the Nation as a 1 yr old is always impressive. Hope you are planning to take him again this year because he's one of the ones I made note of to watch at the 2006 Nationals.

I want to go back and comment on Jillâ€™s post: From what I read, the point of her post was NOT to belittle anyone or to attack in any way those with financial limitations. Goodness, I have my limitations and I wasnâ€™t offended.

Rather, her point seemed to be that there are people who CLAIM to have a â€œNational Champion Qualityâ€ stallion in their pasture when they know all too well that they have no intention of ever proving it. Easy to sayâ€¦Backing it up is entirely different.

I have seen too many horses that were implied as something that they arenâ€™t. If Iâ€™ve got a horse that I think is â€œNational Champion Qualityâ€, Iâ€™m going to find a way to get it in a show ring. For example: Iâ€™ve got a couple of horses that I really like at home right now that are 2 yr olds and have never been shown because of budget problems, my wifeâ€™s travels, and my constant habit of injuring myself like a moron. I believe that they could be contenders, so you can bet that somehow they will eventually be shown. Until then, I will NOT say that they are â€œNational Champion Qualityâ€. Thatâ€™s something that has to be earned at Nationals.



rabbitsfizz said:


> It costs EXACTLY the same amount of money to raise a "pet" foal as it does to raise the next Grand Champion.
> 
> Why on earth would anyone bother at least not aiming for the top??


True dat! In fact, Redi has cost us much less in vet bills than a couple of our "pet" horses because he's always in perfect health.


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)

Thank you, Mike (strass). You did understand exactly what I was trying to say!


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## shane (May 13, 2006)

SORRY I WAS GOING TO SAY SOMETHING BUT CHANGED MY MIND



:



:


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## Minimor (May 13, 2006)

Well, I wasn't sure if Jill was talking to/about me or not. I believe I said (not going pages back now to check, it's not worth the effort) that it's other people (who incidentally have shown at Nationals!) that have suggested that some of our horses should be showing to that level--I haven't been there so can't say what the competition looks like in the flesh. I do know my horses' faults & do know how to present them to minimize those faults but I wouldn't even venture a guess as to how me might fare at that level. Someday, I do hope to get there--surely there has to be one year where nothing else will go wrong and suck up all the fun money??? As it is, though, I'm not going to go into hock to take a horse to Tulsa this year!

I have to say, though, I'm glad there are some on here that can see what some--including me--mean about not having extra money for showing. Jill, from what I read you did sort of turn the 'no extra money for showing' into having 'no money' and then saying that meant that a person shouldn't have horses. That's all I'm going to say, because I've learned that some things aren't worth arguing over with some people. I have a neighbor that has money and two very neglected, poorly fed horses, where as I have no extra money BECAUSE my horses (and cats) want for nothing. If that means I shouldn't have horses in your books, well, feel free to think what you like. I don't give a rats behind at all. Someday perhaps you can tell me in person at Tulsa!?


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## Jill (May 13, 2006)

I'm not trying to argue at all but no, I was not referring to or about you. And I am sad that you felt I meant people who choose not to spend extra money on horse shows shouldn't have horses. If anything, actually, I think there's a measurable number who will spend $$$ on shows but not cough it up for more important things. My main point is just what Mike understood.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 13, 2006)

Thanks Strauss.. for the compliments on Paco we love him very much. He isnt showing this year IMO he really needed the year off to mature he is a bit more high strung then the rest of my horses and I think needed some off time to relax - then again I have been told (and it wasnt meant as a compliment although I take it as one coming from a big horse background -not halter) that I can take the show out of any horse.. meaning I make them dead heads. Paco is far from that yet but is handled daily by Raven and he is even attempting to breed a couple of mares. I will send him out next year when he can go with a trainer who can do him much more justice then this show doofus



:

But again thanks for the kind words about him and for even noticing him in that very tough class with all those very nice horses!


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## sdmini (May 13, 2006)

What a lively little discussion this turned out to be!!

Sorry but I'm a mind your own business type of person. I ask for nothing more out of people than to feed and take care of their horses. Of course I wish people would do "up-grades" but I have yet to see a farm where every single horse they had was something I loved and wanted.

One of my best mares I'll call mediocre, I gave her a chance because I knew her background. First colt was a dud but by the time he filled out enough to say "ick" I had already rebred her for the next year. She was slated for sale but had no interest. She plunked out a very nice foal, followed by a stunner and an another stunner. So call her mediocre all you want...she's no longer for sale.

On the flip side I've seen stunning individuals that can not reproduce anything but mediocre yet few clamor for them to be removed from the gene pool...they just haven't gotten "the right cross" yet.



:


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## kaykay (May 13, 2006)

keep in mind i just got back from our first show and am exhausted.

Ill say this. years ago on here i did critiques and GOT BLASTED FOR IT. was called many names and most of them not nice but amoung them, too blunt, too mean, too much of a perfectionist etc etc. So I stopped doing them

Awhile back a lot of youth were asking questions and I started conformation threads ON MY OWN HORSES. I tore my own horses up and every horse i showed on there has done well showing locally. All went well for awhile. Then it started. I started doing a couple critiques on the kids horses and honestly the kids were fine with it. But then the pms started LOL. Yep i was getting blasted again. Now im no expert for sure!!! And NEVER claim to be. I was only trying to share with the kids what i know myself. I am endlessly fascinated by conformation and form following function.

I havent shown yet nationally due to not being able to travel that far but hopefully someday! Im just a little breeder trying to do the best I can and breed the best I can. I am harder on my horses then anyone else ever could be.

But doing critiques on here just doesnt work!!


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## KanoasDestiny (May 13, 2006)

A little off topic but I am really, really curious!!! How many people who want the best for this horse breed, have dogs that are mutts? Or better yet, mutt dogs that have had puppies? Is this only a horse thing? Sorry, but I'm curious if horses are the only ones who get such bad reviews. (I have two mutt dogs, and one would make beautiful puppies with the right female).


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## kaykay (May 13, 2006)

if you look at my site kanos you will see i only breed purebred border collies and all are from national champion herding bloodlines






yep im as picky on dogs as i am horses LOL


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## SmoothEZ (May 13, 2006)

My dog is a beautiful well marked dalmation that has been neutered because he was not breeding quality because his spots were too big.!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## nootka (May 13, 2006)

I think if anyone were to visit a local shelter, they would agree that the world does not, either, need more mutts and I'd bet dollars to doughnuts this SAME CONVERSATION

is happening somewhere on a dog breed board re: mutts/poor type being perpetuated.

The point of all of this is that there are some of us who have different "taste" in horses. This is fine, as long as individual conformation is correct and equal. Follow your big horse types for reference, but overall, don't look past the best examples of every breed. They are proportionate and sound as the most desirable trait.

Then there are those that refuse to admit they are looking past some pretty unacceptable faults in order to flatter themselves. Not going to say I've never done it. I don't pretend to want everyone to like my taste in horses, but I will say that if I sell you a horse I feel will be a decent show horse as well as pleasure horse, I believe it and I want you to have looked around enough to believe it, too. If not, my horse will stay here.

What I do want people to see is that in this "breed" (Miniatures) proportion is quite important in that if you get far too out of whack, I really believe you're playing with dwarfism. Case in point: Long back, ok? Yeah, maybe by itself, but you add a large head and shorter legs and you have a dwarf on your hands. So if your mare/stallion have a combination of the two between them, guess what? could be more likely you'd get a dwarf.

Anyone would admit that dwarfism is a problem and we dont' fully understand the role that genetics plays in it, but I will say that in a lot of the cases where I've seen the sire and dam, I can see where the dwarfism happened. I can't say every one because I haven't seen every sire/dam. I'm not trying to say I "know it all" about this, just that I can see it in certain individuals. Heck, I had one here! This is why she left here as a pet. My mistake!

Show horses aside, if we look at our breed standards and truly compare what we have with what we're trying for, we will cut out at least the worst of our breeding choices, but not everyone cares about it, and so we just blunder on, doing our best for whatever our purposes.

I wish I could take you to what I think is the largest mini breeder in this state's place. I happen to know they own at least 300 horses and other miscellaneous "exotics". I may be sheltered, but when they're bragging at selling 20 or better horses in a month, I believe they must be doing quite a business. They breed for color alone, from what I can see. Registrations are a mess, the health care is horrendous, and dwarfs are everywhere, from severe to mild, but wow, what color. The smell of death pervades the place.

This person obviously cares little for the breed standard or even whether or not they get $200 for a crooked little colt or $30,000 for a special little rare color (again bragging). Either way, there's a market and they cater to it. I do know of several people who have done business with them and 99% wholly regret it. They wish to go back and buy the rest to save them, but guess what that does? Encourage them to get and make more. I can't think this person has no effect on the market, nor other/new people's ideas when they go to visit. They perpetuate the idea that certain combos are fine as long as the color's what they're after, and smaller is better, with no explanation as to quality or soundness (not bashing tiny ones, only the pursuit of one trait beyond what is reasonable and healthy)

Correctness and temperament, then beauty, and the beauty part comes quite easily to the most correct horses I've seen/found.

Liz M.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 13, 2006)

KanoasDestiny said:


> A little off topic but I am really, really curious!!! How many people who want the best for this horse breed, have dogs that are mutts? Or better yet, mutt dogs that have had puppies? Is this only a horse thing? Sorry, but I'm curious if horses are the only ones who get such bad reviews. (I have two mutt dogs, and one would make beautiful puppies with the right female).


NO comparison.. I have mutts and always have as well as purebreed dogs however i WOULD NEVER EVER breed my mixed breed dogs. They are loved, sleep in my bed and if you ask my kids sometimes get get treated to good



:

However there are way to many dogs being put to sleep on a daily basis for me to even think of breeding a dog just cause I love it and want a cute pup I can go get a cute pup and save a life or save myself the trouble a pup is and get an adult dog waiting on death row.

That statement doesnt change the fact I LOVE my dogs pure breed or not but loving any animal isnt enough reason to breed them IMO


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## stormo41 (May 14, 2006)

this seems like a long and interesting converstion. I have skimmed through the 10 pages and would like to share my thoughts.

On the first and formost question "why do people keep Mediocre horses Stallions?" I know some one already said this but I will say it again "Because they can". It's true a Mediocre or poor stallion is cheep, and easy. People can find one for sale close to them, A mini is easy to get to your home (of you live on a lrage enough property to keep him/her). Maybe they have childeren who have always wanted a horse or "pony" and they see the chance to make money if they get their kid 2 minis.

It was also brought up about dogs too, My dog is a mutt and I hate to say probaly came from a puppy mill, we got her a pet store. I love her and would not give her up for anything. I think the reason why it is being more noticed with Miniature horses and the breeding of low quitly horses NOT JUST THE STALLIONS!!! is because miniature horses are becomeing more popular around the world, more cleberties are publicly owning minis and breeders can send their stock to live with anyone anywhere in the world.

I also read a comment "the big breeders blame the small breeders, and they small breeders blame the big breeders"

How true the larger breeders claim that the smaller or "back yard breeders" are causing problems for the breed by breeding to many poor horses therefore poor foals offered to the public for cheep. The smaller breeders say that the large breeders put to high of prices on their horses who can afford that? I find that sad, People are falling into the dreaded circle of blaming doom. It's no use, to hind behind something or someone else, you have what you have and you love and care for it and you should be proud of it.

The thing is people see things and they want things right away, as said before people rush into it without thinking about what they are doing.

Ithink the most important thing I want to bring up is that it's not just the stallions that are mediocre, often times the mares are not top grade as well. And on top of that a person may have ONE poor stallion and MANY poor mares who they breed to that stallion.

And one last thing, there are so many reasons why people keep mediocre horses for breeding reasons and you will never know all of the reasons. I know that it gets frustating seeing it happen when breeders big or small are trying to promote and work for years perfecting their breeding programs. The only thing you can do is get out their and tell the public what good conformation is for the breed, and warn them about issues with the breed such as darwfism and so on.

I also saw that someone said something along the lines of "having conformation posts on here just does not work" I wonder why????????? could it be because this is forum full of people who for the most part are breeding nice horses and are promoting the breed for what it should be. If you want to make a difference this is not the place to push education of course it is nice to have such things on here for new people to the breed and so on, and it helps alot. But this is not the only place in the world where people can get information on miniature horses.

-vanessa


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## susanne (May 14, 2006)

KanoasDestiny said:


> A little off topic but I am really, really curious!!! How many people who want the best for this horse breed, have dogs that are mutts? Or better yet, mutt dogs that have had puppies? Is this only a horse thing? Sorry, but I'm curious if horses are the only ones who get such bad reviews. (I have two mutt dogs, and one would make beautiful puppies with the right female).



With the exception of one horse, all of our dogs, cats and horses are rescues whom we love with all of our hearts. Two dogs are purebred, two are mutts. All of our animals are gelded, spayed or neutered, or will be soon.

I've often been asked why I gelded Mingus, but as much as I love him, and as good of a show horse as he is, he is still not breeding material according to my standards. It is very unlikely that I will ever breed, but if I do it will not be with "the best that I could afford," but the "best." Period. I may never be able to afford the horses that I consider worthy of breeding, but that's just the way it is.

My reason? I've seen far too many unwanted animals...and my two purebred dogs are proof that not even good breeding prevents a dog from ending up being unwanted. I would not bring a creature into this world without knowing they were needed and wanted...not just by us, but by others as well in case something should happen to us.

Even then, I'll probably always look instead amongst the many wonderful foals bred by others.

BTW, even though our pedigrees, conformation, intelligence and temperaments are very nice indeed, Keith and I chose not to -- um -- breed. (Neither of us, however, is spayed or neutered...)


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## nootka (May 14, 2006)

*LOL* susanne, thanks for injecting a little levity into the situation.

you are both great people and great "parents" to your brood not to mention great with kids anyway.





One does not have to procreate to be "worth" something, eh?

Interesting concept...... 

There are some awesomely made horses that are very affordable right here in the NW. I know where a lot of 'em are.  My secrets! (less than the cost of a good show horse!)

Liz


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## shane (May 14, 2006)

:


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## Danielle_E. (May 14, 2006)

> OOps sorry Danniel, I did not intend for it to sound like that..I too appreciate tact and diplomacy in the way a horse is critiqued.. All I was trying to get across is that if someone is wanting a honest critique it may be better for them to get one thru a reputable member of this forum, via PM style. This way all the confusion of different opinions on what looks good, as opposed to what is conformationally acceptable is eliminated, and the horse can be truthfully evaluated.. I too agree that Lyn has a good eye on what are a horses strengths and weaknesses., and have sought her opinions before..


Oh Margaret, I wasn't meaning you at all  . I just remember a certain incident where someone point blank said something about sugar coating in another thread and went on to boast on straightforward they were and prided themselves on it and this was one of the most rude people I have ever come across in my entire life and I remember thinking I would rather sugar coat which to me means telling what you think BUT doing it with some finesse, tact and diplomacy. I certainly wasn't thinking of you or most other members on this board, just this one gal who seems to get wars going on any thread she participates in.

Hugs to you!


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## Margaret (May 14, 2006)

Okey Dokey..



:


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## mountain_waif (May 14, 2006)

....


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (May 14, 2006)

To address the OP's question, I doubt you would ever find a single breeder here or anywhere who thinks their stallion is mediocre. It's always about other people's horses, isn't it?



: There are varying degrees of taste in what one likes and wishes to produce but in all breeding situations, and mini horse breeders are no exception, you have to produce a lot of babies to get something exceptional and exceptional ones rarely end up for sale. So unfortunately there will always be a large influx of what some think are mediocre animals and in turn they will be sold to those who also have big dreams to produce good horses too and they most certainly won't think their stallions are mediorcre either. Unfortunately, it's an endless cycle and not one likely to ever resolve.

I wish there were a better way than critiques to educate people thinking about taking the plunge into breeding miniatures, or any animal for that matter, but even the best intentioned, as those on the youth forum, were blasted as being know-it-alls so I doubt those who DO have an eye for correctness will be willing to take that kind of abuse repeatedly before they give up and that knowlege is silenced forever. I dislike the critiques only because the photos usually do a terrible disservice to the animal and things that appear to be a flaw usually are not when the animal is actually seen up close. Rarely have I ever seen someone get mean in a critique and call someone's horse garbage. I believe most of the posters are genuinely trying to be helpful and honest and not trying to hurt anyone intentionally.

Those who request a critique must be willing to hear some not so flattering things. They have purposefully asked for opinions, no one is forcing their opinions on them out of the blue. Sometimes I think it's not that those who sugar coat it are being more tactful or even kind but more often than not it seems they try to balance the perceived harshness which in a real critique is sometimes unfortunately necessary. Someone could say all the right words and someone somewhere would get their feelings hurt reading too much into it from their own personal baggage. Those that are willing to learn from a critiques are ready to hear what others are seeing but if they are only expecting to hear what they already believe than it can be quite devastating.


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## shane (May 14, 2006)

WELL I ASKED FOR A CRITIQUE ON MY HORSE A WHILE BACK, AND I WAS GENUINELY WANTING AN HONEST OPINION ON HIM FROM THE EXPERT EYE, LYN AND KAY ETC, I GOT A LOVELY RESPONSE AND I WAS GENUINELY NOT WANTING SUGAR COATED ANSWERS TO MAKE ME FEEL GOOD, I WAS CURIOUS TO SEE WHAT THE AMERICAN EYE COULD SEE IN HIM, BUT WHAT I DIDN'T EXPECT WAS TO GET A CRITIQUE IN A PM, INSULTING HIM, TELLING ME THAT HIS FOALS WHERE WORTHLESS,AND THEY WOULD GELD HIM, I THINK THAT WAS A BIT UNCALLED FOR IN THIS FORUM, AS THE MAJORITY OF THE PEOPLE ON HERE ARE VERY HELPFUL AND KNOWLEDGEABLE, WHAT I GOT WAS SOMEONE BEING CRUEL,AND DIDN'T WANT EVERYONE ON HERE TO SEE THE TRUE THEM.........



:


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## Cathy_H (May 14, 2006)

> This is caused by *overbreeding* when there is not a demand for all the foals being produced. Why do people, each and every year, over and over, take foals to sales to make room for the ones to be born next year? Why do they breed more that what there is a demand for? Overbreeding happens not only to the farms using mediocre stallions but to those farms breeding their champion stallion with no homes for their get and for their get's get to go to.


Finally, someone reinforcing what I have been saying for years...... Doesn't matter that the miniature horse numbers have NOT reached the numbers of some large horse breeds... That's comparing apples to oranges.


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## Jill (May 15, 2006)

I would like to echo what Mary Lou said about showing, however, to really get an education as to how your own breeding stock stacks up, I do think you need to get them in the ring. Speaking on my own past experience, having my various horses in the ring has enlightened me a great deal and did change my opinions about the degree physical perfection of each! It is too easy to sit outside the ring and keep those mommy goggles on and truly think your horse would have done well but the only way to know is to get him or her in the ring.

To me, I feel it is almost blasphemous to say your horse is National Champion caliber unless he's been National Champion. BUT, I remember a time when I (honest to God) felt like Derby had what it took to place in halter at the nationals as a stallion. I was in tears when I found out by putting him there that he did not. It was part of my continuing education in the breed. And, I can also say that Derby (now a gelding) is better stallion material than what many are using as their stallion and yes, he proved that in the ring as well at many shows.

In my experience, the only way to really stand back and LOOK at how your horse stacks up is to put him into competetion and if you are fortunate enough to have a handler so YOU can stand outside the ring and LOOK at the entire class, in my own experience, it is an amazing eye opener.

That stuff about politics, too, is just a bunch of sour grapes. If that's your fall back position, don't waste your time and money on shows. In most cases, there's at least 2 judges at a registry show and there are VALID reasons that some horses consistently place at the top and why do some handlers / owners / trainers place consistently at the top??? They've got good taste and a good eye.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 15, 2006)

Jill I have to say that politics thing just cracks me up. I am a bit shocked when those start screaming politics outside the ring (heck some before they even leave the ring) come on now when those same people get a ribbon or a placing they wanted do they still run out of the ring screaming politics?

Cant be both ways cant only be politics if you are losing but never only when you place or win.

Am I blind to the fact that it could happen and does a small percentage of the time. Nope but again the thing that gets me is those that scream it the loudest sure dont seem to think it would apply if they won only if they lose. How does that work



:



:


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## Jill (May 15, 2006)

I hear you, Lisa!!!

There's a lady I used to show with and she used to gripe loud enough for others to hear outside of the ring about my horse or her horse should have done better. I used to HATE that because I knew others could over hear and how many people would remember it was that lady talking trash??? I think most would look back and remember WE were talking trash (although I never said anything gripy when others were around...)

Just such poor sportsmanship.


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## Frankie (May 15, 2006)

> I doubt you would ever find a single breeder here or anywhere who thinks their stallion is mediocre. It's always about other people's horses, isn't it?


I believe the above statement is at the core of the entire thing!

Well said.

Who decides what the top quality is? A National Winner? Then what?

A committee would have to sit down and make a list. There isn't many National Winners, so there would have to be what next? And who decides what that next is? Would it be a son of a National Winner, or would it be a National All-Star Winner? Who received that award due to a large number of shows attended, not by the top placings in a few shows?

I have pretty much read this entire thread. And the above statement has come into play a number of times. By people whom have posted and think their stallion is top notch. But is he???? And who "says", or has the right to say, to make is so?


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## Windstorm Minis (May 15, 2006)

Hi all - just wanted to add my "two cents" worth. I have a wide variety of experience with different breeds - QH, TB, Saddlebreds, Minis, Friesians.....and what you see in the "show ring" does not necessarily represent the true "genetics" of the horse.

Any horse that has their neck sweated down for showing Does Not represent the genetics of the horse.

Everyone talks about only raising "quality, conformationally correct" horses, but part of "quality & conformation" is in the eye of the beholder- I'm NOT talking about obvious faults - bad bites, cow-hocked, and such...but "faults" than can be corrected with tricks.

Some folks like the Arab type minis and some like the QH or Morgan or whatever other type of mini.

The Arab type is supposed to have the long neck, the flat topline and so on. If you like the QH type, then you would not be looking for the flat topline and not necessarily a really long neck...just normal. A "normal" neck is one that the bottom line of the neck is 1/2 the length of the topline of the neck, just as the back should be 1/2 the length of the bottom line. These are "standard" measurements in "big" horses for conformation.

You can also trim feet to straighten up legs....if you have a horse whos feet turn out a bit, you can file the outside of the hoof shorter than the inside and straighten them up....and yes, I have seen this done in different breeds. So, if you do that then the horse is not "genetically" correct and could pass that on.

I'm not talking about "conditioning" a horse for show - getting them in shape - I am talking about doing anything that changes them in the genetic sense.

If you have a horse - any sex - that has to have their neck sweated down to compete in the show ring, then that is not a true representation of said horse. If their neck is NOT slender without the sweating, then they can pass the trait on to the foals and then you get the not so great offspring that has been talked about in other posts.

Then there is the topline that is so talked about. I have seen many, many minis that just standing "normal" do not have a flat topline, but go and stick your fingers in their back and wow they now have a flat topline!

If you have to do some trick to make them "look" like they have a flat topline, then they are not "genetically" going to throw that topline - especially if both sire and dam do not have the flat topline just standing "normal".

So, I say this - Anyone standing or promoting ANY mini - that has been sweated, use tricks to get a flat topline, trim hooves to correct a problem....is NOT in any way doing any good at promoting and breeding "correct" horses.

And then you can get into what is correct? Setting aside "obvious" conformation faults - what is good conformation for one person can be different for another...as in some like the Arab type and some like the QH type. If

If you like the QH type, then NOT having a flat topline is not a conformation fault and having a "normal" neck

isn't either. And vice-versa.

Does that beautiful, long, slender necked, flat topline horse "set-up" for nice pics look the same if they are standing normal and not sweated? I would bet a great many of them would not.

I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.

My sister and I went back to our stalls and took out our "not naturally" flat toplined horses and did that little trick and wow, it worked and they stood there with a flat topline! Learned a whole lot at that show!!

If you take said stud and said mare that are sweated down and whatever else and breed them...are you going to get that slender neck genetically....high chance that no, you will not.

So, bash away, but ANY breeder on this board or anywhere that uses the "tricks" to promote their horses - tricks that change their "True" genetics or conformation is no better than the "back yard" breeders.

Take that one step further....if someone is using the "tricks" and getting those oh, so nice, but NOT a true representation of the horse's "genetics" or "conformation" pictures.......and you have the "back-yard" breeder bringing the horse out of the pasture and taking pics, with maybe just a clean up and a clip job, but no sweating or anything....WHO is representing their horses honestly and who is not!!

Another story about a mini my sister and I bought a long time ago - we bought him from pics...as he was way too far away to go see....received lots of pics and really liked him - bought him - had him shipped and he was so cow-hocked that his hocks nearly rubbed together!! So, apparently they stood him up and took their hands and pulled his hocks straight and snapped the pics......we got burned...we gelded him and found him a very nice "pet" home where he is much loved and taken care of and certainly won't be passing on that genetic fault.

Remember the mini horse show segment that aired on RFDTV a while back. I was watching the show and I saw the most gorgeous mini shown by a youth....looked like a mini QH - to me, stunningly beautiful and I was thinking that I want that "type" of mini for my daughter to show in 4-H and local shows as she would be showing mostly against QH type "big" horses.

I also just love the Arab type too....

In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.

Have a great day!!


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## SmoothEZ (May 15, 2006)

Frankie said:


> > I doubt you would ever find a single breeder here or anywhere who thinks their stallion is mediocre. It's always about other people's horses, isn't it?
> 
> 
> Who decides what the top quality is? A National Winner? Then what?
> ...



The answer to this question is my eyes "*is the standards of the Breed*". I am not saying that it is determined by a National Winner, what I did say in my original post is that if you think your horse can enter the show ring just for an example lets say standing next to "First Knight Lord of the Rings" and you would not be embarrassed to be there then maybe just maybe you have a nice stallion. But if you do feel embarrassed having your horse stand next to one like that then maybe you should have a gelding. Nowhere in my post did I say that a good horse has to be a show horse, but it should by all means fair well against the breed standards that are set by (all of us) the Breed Registries. Also if you have a proven stallion that is not putting babies on the ground that are better then him then maybe you need to re-evaluate your breeding program, as I think that the ultimate goal of breeding your horses should be to improve the breed not just make cute little cuddly babies with genetic problems. I am also saying that the same standards need to be applied to your mares. There are plenty of mares out there that should not be bred and I commend those that have the foresight and will power not to breed them. I know of one woman that has a 26 inch mare that she has had for over 10 years and she will not ever breed this mare because she thinks that she is too small to breed. It is not because this mare has any genetic problems it is just that the owner thinks that the mare may have problems with foaling and she is unsure of what the resulting foal would look like because she is so small. I commend her for her decision and the will power that this decision has taken. Just because you own a mare and a stallion does not mean that you should breed them. You first have to think about what the resultant foal would be. OK back off my soap box again. :saludando:


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## Buckskin gal (May 15, 2006)

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: Very well stated. What one sees in pictures is not always what we get and yet those professional pictures do make sales! Thanks for putting it so very well. Mary



Windstorm Minis said:


> Hi all - just wanted to add my "two cents" worth. I have a wide variety of experience with different breeds - QH, TB, Saddlebreds, Minis, Friesians.....and what you see in the "show ring" does not necessarily represent the true "genetics" of the horse.
> 
> Any horse that has their neck sweated down for showing Does Not represent the genetics of the horse.
> 
> ...


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## Mona (May 15, 2006)

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: VERY WELL said Windstorm Minis!!!

SmoothEZ, I really think the "standard of perfection" is a joke for our breed! It may be an outline, but since our breed allows different "types", there is no one standarad to follow, just as those "types" in the large horse world each have their own registry and their own standard of perfection.

Our breed standard only gives a basic outline of what to look for in the way of correct conformation, and not so much geared towards a standard of perfection as in a breed standard.

I may not be making sense. I know what I am TRYING to say, but not sure if it is coming out right or not.




:

So if we all follow the standard of perfection as presented to us by out registries, we can all aim towards good conformation, and that is MOST important, in my opinion.


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## NMMack (May 15, 2006)

: Thank You!!!



:

This is what I have always thought also!

Nancy







Windstorm Minis said:


> Hi all - just wanted to add my "two cents" worth. I have a wide variety of experience with different breeds - QH, TB, Saddlebreds, Minis, Friesians.....and what you see in the "show ring" does not necessarily represent the true "genetics" of the horse.
> 
> Any horse that has their neck sweated down for showing Does Not represent the genetics of the horse.
> 
> ...


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## tagalong (May 15, 2006)

> I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.


Again - that topline adjustment *cannot change basic structure*. If you actually think that the pushing down on the back (which only makes the muscles tighten) can creat a great topline _that is not there _ - that cannot be hidden in anyway...



:

Trimming feet to make minor adjustments - again - that do NOT affect the structure of the leg which is obvious - is not an evil, dirty "show trick" - it is *basic hoof care*. You would do that same thing on a pet to help him travel better and be more balanced etc. But no - let's call it a shameful trick - when it is not. And it is not "changing them" in the "genetic sense". Yikes.



> .......and you have the "back-yard" breeder bringing the horse out of the pasture and taking pics, with maybe just a clean up and a clip job, but no sweating or anything....WHO is representing their horses honestly and who is not!!


Well - go figure. We had Liz M. out to shoot pictures of horses that were pulled in from the pasture and simply bathed and clipped - no "tricks" as you assert, no sweating, no fancy setting up, no backs pushed, no hocks set, no retouching, _nothing_. All they had to do was stand still... sort of. Hopefully. Or not.



: And yes - their quality shows. An *honest* representation. But you would claim that it is _not_? Could you please be just a bit _more_ insulting? :bgrin



> In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, *just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.*


Bolding mine. And WHERE has anyone said that in this thread?? :lol: Nowhere. Read again - all the posts about judging the horse _as an individual..._ *and basic, correct conformation is common no matter what "type" (or eve breed) you prefer.* Shoulder angles. Clean, correct knees and hocks. Straight legs. And yes - we all need to honestly evaluate what we have out in the pasture...

and not just breed "to see what happens" but undertake it as a responsibilty to the horses themselves.

In Europe - many breeds require stallions to be evaluated and judged - _they must achive certain scores to be allowed to breed _ - no ifs, ands or buts. If not - they become a gelding. Which is not a dirty word when you raise Warmbloods... but mention to some mini people and they will freak out - as we have seen in many threads here.

Mares are also evaluated and rated in other breeds - but the mere mention of such careful breeding evaluations and consideration here will only get you a chorus of _NIMBY... it's a free country... no one can tell me what to do... screw you... _ comments that do nothing to better the Miniature Horse - health-wise or genetically... which one would think would be the primary goal of ANYONE choosing to breed. :no:


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 15, 2006)

Windstorm Minis said:


> In closing, each and every one of us has to look in our OWN mirror and decide if we are HONESTLY breeding quality - conformationally genetically - correct - minis - whether it be the Arab type or any other type, and again, just because the horse doesn't look like an Arab, does not mean it is not conformationally correct.
> 
> Have a great day!!


Well for the most part I totally agree with Tag's post.. I dont understand why these threads about quality animals and breeding for pets turns into always those evil show people



:

I have said it before and will say it again

At the end of each day all we can ask ourselves is did my ego or greed get in the way of the miniature horse breed today. and hope we can live with the answer.


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## Mona (May 15, 2006)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> Well for the most part I totally agree with Tag's post.. I dont understand why these threads about quality animals and breeding for pets turns into always those evil show people
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, for the record, I did not equate that post to "evil show people".


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## Windstorm Minis (May 15, 2006)

tagalong said:


> > I was at a show - actually my very first mini show and there was a clinic on showing halter horses....the guy had this gorgeous filly (that he won the champion class with). He had her just standing there normal - I thought she was beautiful (and i didn't know about the "flat topline" at the time) and then he showed us how to push down on the back with your fingers and boom - her back flattened out and she had a flat topline.....that's when I first learned about the "importance" put on that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## horsehug (May 15, 2006)

Very well said, Windstorm Minis! 

I truly believe each of us should breed for horses that are pleasing to Our eyes and what each of us likes as to type, while following a "generally uniform" standard of perfection for correct conformation.

Also not all of us are cut out for the show ring or for sending our horses to trainers either. I applaud those who are and if that is what they want to do, but I also applaud those who breed for horses of the type they themselves like and would purchase, without the need for showing. I certainly do not claim my foals are National champion quality to get them sold. I do not show and would not presume to advertise that way.

I know what I like (my own miniature horse goals), even if I can't always describe it in technical terms, and I truly try to breed for it.

Susan O.


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## Windstorm Minis (May 15, 2006)

Thank you Mona....I have shown several different breeds of horses....and the most fun I have EVER had with show people was with the minis.....have always found them to be fun and always willing to teach and help!



Mona said:


> Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:
> 
> 
> > Well for the most part I totally agree with Tag's post.. I dont understand why these threads about quality animals and breeding for pets turns into always those evil show people
> ...


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 15, 2006)

Not to argue the point but to CLARIFY I said THESE THREADS not THAT POST. There have been several threads lately about showing and show people vs backyard or pet owners. All of that and showing or not showing has nothing to do with breeding conformationally correct horses and representing them honestly and fairly.


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## tagalong (May 15, 2006)

*Windstorm*... I will address your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of MY words in more detail later. But when you seem to assert that pushing on the back alters a topline enough to "fool" a judge as opposed to simply tightening... (even in a photo you cannot hide basic structure - without retouching, anyway) or that simply hoof trimming for balance is inappropriate - and YOU used the word *"tricks*" and more than implied that it was underhanded in some way... well, it does this to me >>>



:

And no - I do not "protest too much"... as you suggest. A bit rude, that. YOU were the one painting others who do "tricks " (again - your words) with a broad brush...

And in critiques - _pay attention _



: - you _can_ evaluate and judge a topline as being level _even in a QH type_ - you know - as in the croup not being miles higher than the withers... or vice versa. Or whether the back drops off suddenly behind the withers and rises over the loins. Or whether the front half of the horse matches the back half. Or whether the back is too long. All of that incorporates the topline. None of that BTW, is desireable.

But hey - I must protest too much or have something to hide... NOT. And no - I am not offended. I am simply weary of the idea that somehow one can manage to "fake" basic structure - or that basic corrective trimming - done the same for any horse - _a little off here to balance, take some more of the other side to correct _ - is only seen as _manipulative._

Back later... the farrier is due - maybe we will do some _tricks_.... :lol:


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## Windstorm Minis (May 15, 2006)

tagalong said:


> *Windstorm*... I will address your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of MY words in more detail later. But when you seem to assert that pushing on the back alters a topline enough to "fool" a judge as opposed to simply tightening... (even in a photo you cannot hide basic structure - without retouching, anyway) or that simply hoof trimming for balance is inappropriate - and YOU used the word *"tricks*" and more than implied that it was underhanded in some way... well, it does this to me >>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...






tagalong said:


> *Windstorm*... I will address your misinterpretation and misrepresentation of MY words in more detail later. But when you seem to assert that pushing on the back alters a topline enough to "fool" a judge as opposed to simply tightening... (even in a photo you cannot hide basic structure - without retouching, anyway) or that simply hoof trimming for balance is inappropriate - and YOU used the word *"tricks*" and more than implied that it was underhanded in some way... well, it does this to me >>>
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## MiLo Minis (May 15, 2006)

My feeling on breeding:

Just because a horse comes from a farm with a big name does not necessarily mean that it will have perfect conformation, they too have their culls - as a matter of fact I don't believe that there is a horse out there with perfect conformation. I feel that it is my responsibility as a breeder to have the best possible stock that I can afford with the best conformation I can find and to recognize my own horses faults. Further I need to be able to breed that to another horse that will not double faults and will improve upon the conformation of the first horse. The resulting foal will hopefully be better than its parents and as the herd matures I need to be able to cull the worst of my herd and replace with something better whether this means keeping a foal or purchasing another horse. Some of my mature horses may or may not be attractive to other people but I find that together they can produce beautiful babies that I am proud of.


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## tshack (May 15, 2006)

well all I can say smoothez is opinions vary, some may think the same of your animals,

Don't forget the phrase do unto others as you'd have them do unto you. Any thought or put down can be reversed.

I will add a bit of my opinion on the matter and say that people who act just liek you've posted like they are the only ones who have some sort of liscense to have horses and the high and mighty rude attitudes that general nice people who come here are given is one of the reasons I don't contribute much to this forum. I do love some of the people that post here, but there are some that are just rude and snobby and it's a shame that those always seems to run the good guys off. It's like you've got to be inducted to the 'secret club' and that is supposed to make you exempt from everything bad that comes with owning horses and give you the liscense to own them. The ones that aren't in it are the ones that are scorned and put down.


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## sdmini (May 15, 2006)

tagalong said:


> Well - go figure. We had Liz M. out to shoot pictures of horses that were pulled in from the pasture and simply bathed and clipped - no "tricks" as you assert, no sweating, no fancy setting up, no backs pushed, no hocks set, no retouching, _nothing_. All they had to do was stand still... sort of. Hopefully. Or not.
> 
> 
> 
> : And yes - their quality shows. An *honest* representation. But you would claim that it is _not_? Could you please be just a bit _more_ insulting? :bgrin


I love Liz photos but they are great photos of horse art geared for selling a "fantasy" image of an animal, not a true representation. I have thumbed through several sets of proof where there are several stunning photos amidst many average looking ones. I am also reminded of the gal, while visiting another breeders place wanted to know where a certain horse was the breeder owned (she had seen it in the Journal, a Liz photo). The breeder laughed and said.....your standing next to it.

Liz is booked because she is the best, I've seen (I mean truly seen) some very average looking or down right dogs but photographed as a superior animal.

Not throwing stones or calling your horse "dogs" but I don't consider Liz photos "true" representations.


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## tagalong (May 15, 2006)

> Not throwing stones or calling your horse "dogs" but I don't consider Liz photos "true" representations.



Hmmm... well I guess you coudl say the same of ANY photos... done by ANYONE. Equally - how often do we read - "these photos do not do him justice"... see? It works both ways.

But the photos I liked were "true" representations... where this one is a teeny bit over at the knees... where that one's head could be a bit more refined... where this one could be a little cleaner throught the throatlatch. Not always the ones where they are "set up", either. No retouching. That is who they are - right out of the field. The right horse at the right angle - can look amazing... even to your eye - not just in a photo.



> DO NOT PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH......you are the one using the term evil and dirty....I said misrepresenting the true conformation and genetics of the horse.......and the "show tricks" I was mostly referring to are the sweating and pushing down on the back....you want to tell me that nobody sweats their horses or pushes down on their backs for a "better" pose.....hmm, I guess I'm just seeing things then.....


*Windstorm*... I hate the "you said I said" stuff - but to clarify a few things.... no, I am not "telling" you that nobody sweats their horses or does the back push - but again (and again and again) that does not - _can not_ - hide the basic structure. Where did I ever say that no one did that? _*confused*_

If a horse is too _long_ in the back and you run your fingers down it or push a bit to get them to tighten - they may only drop it and make things worse. I have seen QH handlers run their fingers _up the belly_ - to get that horse to tuck up... dog handlers can do many of the same things...

The tricks that actually *alter* the horse's look are deplorable - such as the liposuction that I am sure many of us know some stallions have had...

There is no such thing as a perfectly conformed horse. So certain flaws are considered less severe than others. Toeing out slightly is "better" than toeing in. Being a bit over at the knees is better than being back at the knees. And so on. Each horse should be considered as a individual... and his flaws (and there will be some) addressed as to severity and importance. The sum of the parts make up the whole. And a stallion - with the ability to sire many foals a year and pass on his genetics in mass quantities... must meet the strictest criteria of all.

The mark of a truly _great _ stallion of great conformation, athleticism and an even temperament - is that his sons and daughters and their descendants are superior _to him..._

And seeing as this farm only produced one foal last year... and 2 this year - I guess we _are_ what you would call a "backyard" or "smalltime" breeder... :bgrin


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## Windstorm Minis (May 15, 2006)

tagalong....like I said before, you are a very sad, angry person. All we can do is feel sorry for someone like you that lives their daily lives attacking people and trying to intimidate them.

You've completely missed the points that most people have made on this post and I personally do not have any more time for someone like you.

If you are talking about me being a backyard breeder with one foal last year and 2 this year, then once again you don't know what you are talking about. I have 5 foals due this year, 14 minis in all. Small, yes compared to some, but I just got back into minis last year (so I had NO mini foals last year) after selling most of my "big" horses because I missed the little ones too much.

I don't care what you call me...because your particular opinion means absolutely nothing to me.

Does it make you feel really, really good to take one post after another and attack people? Again, how sad.



tagalong said:


> > Not throwing stones or calling your horse "dogs" but I don't consider Liz photos "true" representations.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## tagalong (May 16, 2006)

> tagalong....like I said before, you are a very sad, angry person. All we can do is feel sorry for someone like you that lives their daily lives attacking people and trying to intimidate them.
> You've completely missed the points that most people have made on this post and I personally do not have any more time for someone like you.


I am neither sad - nor angry (where did you say that before?). Not in the least. How did you decide that?

Nor I have attacked anyone or insulted them - as you have me. And I have agreed with_ many_ posters in this thread - so I am afraid I am still confused here....



> If you are talking about me being a backyard breeder with one foal last year and 2 this year, then once again you don't know what you are talking about. I have 5 foals due this year, 14 minis in all. Small, yes compared to some, but I just got back into minis last year (so I had NO mini foals last year) after selling most of my "big" horses because I missed the little ones too much.


[SIZE=14pt]*Please read again*[/SIZE] - before you decide to attack. _*sigh*_

I said _we_ had those foals *HERE.* HERE. *Not you.* *HERE.*



> I don't care what you call me...because your particular opinion means absolutely nothing to me.
> Does it make you feel really, really good to take one post after another and attack people? Again, how sad.


*WHAT? HUH?* 

Again - I attacked NO ONE. I did not call you _anything_. Where? I was talking about the fact that *WE * could be considered small time breeders - you simply decided I was talking about you. _Such was NOT the case_. But feel free to point fingers and accuse... when no insults were directed your way... *nothing.* Unfortunately - the same cannot be said of how you have posted to me.

This is a forum/message board - and all opinions matter... and all opinions figure into a discussion.

[SIZE=10pt]_edited for lousy spelling_[/SIZE]


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## andi (May 16, 2006)

This post has answered it's own question.

People keep breeding mediocre horses because they have convinced themselves that it is not the quality of the horse that makes the difference. It is either politics, publicity, show tricks, deceiving photography etc ... Instead we should just try improving our horses, strive to be succesfull without all that. It can be done. If you just take the easy way out you are doing you and your horses an injustice.

Flame away


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## tagalong (May 16, 2006)

Well said, *andi*. No flames here. We are all here for one reason - _the horses_. :aktion033:


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## Triggy&Blue&Daisy Too (May 16, 2006)

OK guys time out, you must go check out my magificently mediocre herd sire on the main forum :bgrin


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## sdmini (May 16, 2006)

tagalong said:


> Hmmm... well I guess you coudl say the same of ANY photos... done by ANYONE. Equally - how often do we read - "these photos do not do him justice"... see? It works both ways.


Of course it does but besides the fact that the flip side of the coin is NOT in question I have never been disappointed by fact that a horse is better than it's photos.




:



andi said:


> This post has answered it's own question.
> 
> People keep breeding mediocre horses because they have convinced themselves that it is not the quality of the horse that makes the difference. It is either politics, publicity, show tricks, deceiving photography etc ... Instead we should just try improving our horses, strive to be succesfull without all that. It can be done. If you just take the easy way out you are doing you and your horses an injustice.
> 
> Flame away


(preparing to get on a "high" horse here)

There IS politics in shows.

If publicity doesn't help why are the magazines filled with ads?

If there are no show tricks why doesn't my 2X AMHA Top Ten Stud look the same as he did when he came off the circuit?

If some photos are not meant to deceive why are they slanted so much?

I suppose I must be using these things as a "crutch".

Even though I still show and urge everyone else to do so.......

I do not begrudge the people who advertise in either magazine, actually think it's smart business sense......

I don't consider them "tricks" as much as knowledge amassed over the years to know how to do what to each horse to get them to look the best...........

Trick photography? No. Touched up photography? No. The knowledge to look at a horse see his/her best attribute and the skill to conceal it's weakest? Yes.

These things are not the boogie man they do exist and the more people try to say otherwise the more it looks like a "cover up". I feel these things wouldn't be "blamed" near as much as if people would admit to them.

I love the Liz photos, I buy into the whole fantasy and at 30 (well 30 something), married, three kids and bank note much of my fantasy life is dead. Horses do look different sweated, conditioned, clipped and set up, that should be an encouragement for someone to try those things not a detriment. Politics...well the best philosophy I have on that is $%!^ happens deal with it and move on.

My father forgot more things than I'll likely ever know but he did teach me a few things about the "inside" of horse business. Part of that was some horses win but are not worthy of the ribbon but the other *99%* win because they are superior and are presented better.

I strive for a horse that is competitive in the ring, no matter the competition but I don't begrudge the person who doesn't have the same aspirations because at the end of the day my horses really don't care about my dreams but rather how well they are fed.


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## tagalong (May 16, 2006)

> These things are not the boogie man they do exist and the more people try to say otherwise the more it looks like a "cover up". I feel these things wouldn't be "blamed" near as much as if people would admit to them.


_Of course_ good handlers know how to bring out the best in their horses



: ... everyone admits/knows that... and such "tricks" are used in all breeds. I never thought there appeared to be a "cover-up" of any kind - either intended or implied (unless you get into the murky area of surgical alterations/liposuction). But all the tricks and assorted techniques cannot make a good horse great... or change the way he is put together when he is not set up and positioned... which is why I wish (although I acknowledge that it would take longer) that more attention was paid to movement in halter classes, form to function and all. A down and back and side-gait - like at dog shows... or even moving on a triangle - as Warmbloods are often shown in hand.



> My father forgot more things than I'll likely ever know but he did teach me a few things about the "inside" of horse business. Part of that was some horses win but are not worthy of the ribbon but the other 99% win because they are superior and are presented better.


And your father was a very wise man.... IMHO.



:

One particular mare at our Liz photo shoot looks much better in person than in the photos (the old - "that photo does not do her justice" thing - see? :lol: ) - Doll _hated_ the whole idea. She has never liked to be fussed over - and was not always showy in the ring as she pouted, so being brought in from the field and tidied up and bathed (disgusting!) and clipped (disgusting x 2) was bad enough - but when the show halter went on - that was it. Sulk. Pout. And no angle or lighting could hide the truth... a grey sulky mare who wanted This Nonsense To Stop - NOW! She considered her National Champion days to be far behind her. EARS forward? Fuhgeddabowdit. And not one of her photos showed anything other than a pouty, somewhat grouchy mare... oh well. This time - she won - no more beauty pageants for Doll... no more photo shoots - nothing. She made that very clear...



: ... when even Liz's magic and skill could not transform her...

[SIZE=8pt]_edited for annoying typos as usual... _[/SIZE]


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## HGFarm (May 16, 2006)

Oh dear, this post has completely turned into a screaming mud slinging yelling match- what happened to the topic that was started here???

I have a very small herd, I take my own photos- they are not retouched or have anything done with them. I also show because I enjoy it, and do not need to use any 'tricks' - however what does this have to do with the original post??


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## Ashley (May 16, 2006)

There are alot of people who will not stand there stallions as stud because they can get so much more money for a colt out of them verses what they are getting for a stud fee. Thus sending people to need there own stallions.


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## luvmycritters (May 16, 2006)

[SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]

I was not going to post here, but decided - why not? While I originally bought my stallion to use as just that, I have been thinking about having him gelded for some time now. This thread really got me to seriously think about it. Lots of good points have been made. I have not had any foals yet, nor do I expect any this year. But I certainly plan on having my mare's bred - but no longer to my little stallion. He will be gelded and will remain here. I love the bajeebers out of him and figure he will make a great pet - heck he already is! If and when I have my girls bred, I want to be responsible about it. And there certainly are lots of beautiful quality stallions out there! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!



: :aktion033: :new_multi: :saludando: 

[SIZE=12pt]Lori[/SIZE]


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## sdmini (May 16, 2006)

Whoa, I went on a tangent last night didn't I



:

My point was simply that comparing Liz or other proffessional photos to most "do it yourself" photos is about the same as comapring your photos done at "Glamour Shots" to the photo of you taken at your Aunt Mildreds 80th Birthday. (how did that equate to 7 paragraphs last night)

Even though I would have preffered to go back and delete my post I thoughly enjoy sitting back and watching when other people make an @$$ out themselves so consider it my treat today. :new_tomato:


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (May 16, 2006)

sdmini said:


> Even though I would have preffered to go back and delete my post I thoughly enjoy sitting back and watching when other people make an @$$ out themselves so consider it my treat today. :new_tomato:


LOL most of us have been there done that at one point or another :bgrin


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## andi (May 16, 2006)

Love your post sdmini, I think we all have that same feeling once in a while.





If it makes you feel better my post was ten times as long until I let it sit for an hour before posting it.



:


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## SmoothEZ (May 16, 2006)

luvmycritters said:


> [SIZE=12pt] [/SIZE]
> 
> I was not going to post here, but decided - why not? While I originally bought my stallion to use as just that, I have been thinking about having him gelded for some time now. This thread really got me to seriously think about it. Lots of good points have been made. I have not had any foals yet, nor do I expect any this year. But I certainly plan on having my mare's bred - but no longer to my little stallion. He will be gelded and will remain here. I love the bajeebers out of him and figure he will make a great pet - heck he already is! If and when I have my girls bred, I want to be responsible about it. And there certainly are lots of beautiful quality stallions out there! That's my story and I'm sticking to it!!!
> 
> ...



Lori,

I commend you for your decision. If we can only influence one to two people then maybe just maybe we can make some headway. I do not know you or your stallion but I am glad that you have taken the time to look deep within yourself and your future breeding program and made a decision that you will be happy with in the future.

As far as the photos and showing and all the other comments that have been made on this post, I understand that there are many factors that determine ones opinion on their and others horses, but deep down I beleive that our weakest point on all apsects of the plain is education. So for now I am happy to say that at least we have one individual that has taken the original post and put it to work and made a decision that maybe she was wavering to make.

Also I wanted to say that this post should be a record I think for the number of responses that it has gotten. I had no idea when I originally posted that it was going to go so long and in so may different directions. I commend everyone that has posted their feelings and responses and I am glad to see that alot of people put their thinking caps on for this. Now to think of my next attempt at a post



:



:



:


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## luvmycritters (May 16, 2006)

> Lori,
> 
> I commend you for your decision. If we can only influence one to two people then maybe just maybe we can make some headway. I do not know you or your stallion but I am glad that you have taken the time to look deep within yourself and your future breeding program and made a decision that you will be happy with in the future.
> 
> As far as the photos and showing and all the other comments that have been made on this post, I understand that there are many factors that determine ones opinion on their and others horses, but deep down I beleive that our weakest point on all apsects of the plain is education. So for now I am happy to say that at least we have one individual that has taken the original post and put it to work and made a decision that maybe she was wavering to make.



[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

Thank you SmoothEZ, I appreciate your comment and I feel better already about this. Infact I feel great!! I know in my heart that I will be doing the right thing by gelding Nakota. ( He is the gray white pinto pictured in my avatar by the way. ) Infact the gal who I purchased him from even told me he was pet quality - I just wasn't hearing her! I know that she will be equally as happy as I - with my decision to geld him. I have big plans for my future gelding - nursing home visits and school visits are at the top of the list!

Lori


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## bobby dazzler (May 17, 2006)

HI. Lori. I am/was in a similiar situation to yours - although I did not purchase Bob with the intention to breed him BUT I did get caught up in the fantasy of breeding little babies - and keep him as a stallion. But after reading some of the posts here, I decided I would geld him. I am a novice - in all horses. Why did I think I had the skills after 4 months to breed these beautiful creatures? Bob has now been gelded - and unfortunately now has a infection to boot - but hopefully he is on the mend now he is getting his drugs. I have bought a new little filly for him for a friend and in about 5 more weeks, I will be able to put him with his little friend. And after reading this post, I truly believe I have made the best decision possible for bobbie and myself. Regards, Kerrie


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