# Did I really see this on AMHA website???



## targetsmom (Sep 24, 2011)

I just went to the AMHA website (www.amha.org) to look for the World Show results (not there yet) and saw a photo of a mini that appears to be hooked to a cart(??) but the mini is standing with NO BRIDLE OR HALTER ON!!! Someone is just holding its head.

Or are my eyes wrong???


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## Sandee (Sep 24, 2011)

On what page? I don't see it on the main page and didn't find it clicking around either.


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## targetsmom (Sep 24, 2011)

They may be working on the site now but here is where I found it:

http://www.amha.org/index.asp?KeyName=633

This is also where to get the World Show results so they probably are working on this page.


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## Sue_C. (Sep 24, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> I just went to the AMHA website (www.amha.org) to look for the World Show results (not there yet) and saw a photo of a mini that appears to be hooked to a cart(??) but the mini is standing with NO BRIDLE OR HALTER ON!!! Someone is just holding its head.
> 
> Or are my eyes wrong???



WOW...unfortunately you are not wrong...but by golly, THEY ARE!!!!!!!!!! what a stupid thing to do, and to put it on the site like that only encourages others to do the same. Shame on them!!! :arg! :arg!




:NoNoNo


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## targetsmom (Sep 24, 2011)

If it wasn't a weekend I would call the office..I wonder if an e-mail to the office would be in order??? Any other ideas?? This page will likely get a lot of hits this weekend as people check for results.

Is there an AMHA rule forbidding this at shows like there is at ADS and PtHA?? I would hope so...


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## ironbessflint (Sep 24, 2011)

Yikes!! It does seem to be an ad for a farm, so perhaps AMHA didn't even realize since I'm sure somebody paid and then just submitted pictures.

I know AMHR has a rule about removing bridles while hitched, but I can't find anything in the AMHA rule book.


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## chandab (Sep 24, 2011)

Not condoning it, but it looks like someone did it for a photo op. You know pretty head with no head gear to block the view.


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## Minimor (Sep 25, 2011)

Not only that but it appears from the position of the lines that the bridle is probably on the ground at the horse's feet....so perhaps if the horse were to suddenly bolt he would get his feet tangled in the bridle & fall on his face before he could really get going?





No doubt the idea was to take a pretty picture without the bridle to hide the horse's head but personally I would be more impressed if the horse were properly tacked up for the photo. If they want a pretty head shot they should take the horse out of the cart shafts first.


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## Sue_C. (Sep 25, 2011)

> If they want a pretty head shot they should take the horse out of the cart shafts first.


EXACTLY... All this shows to anyone who understands driving, (and knows the rules) is they are more concerned with a pretty picture, than the horse's welfare.


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## RhineStone (Sep 25, 2011)

I suppose this is a "carry over" from those "new-fangled" shots of QHs saddled and just being held around the neck (if at all).



Never liked those either for the potential of disaster. It's like they have to "prove" two things: 1) Look at my horse's pretty head, and 2) Look at how well trained, mannerly he is! This just tells me that the farm using those photos is not as well-versed in driving as they would like everyone to believe. Horses that are put to a vehicle with only a header, halter, or nothing as in this case are a disaster waiting to happen, as the horse can't swing around to the side from it's handler, so if they feel the need to move, they plow over whatever is in their way. The handler can't possibly hold a horse that is full-steam ahead.

I don't care how broke the horse is. I've seen some incredibly broke driving horses have brain hiccups, too.

This needs to stop before someone gets a big brainiac idea to start taking show photos like this...like the QHs do. We're not members of any breed organization, so anyone up for writing a Rule Change Proposal for your organizations? Anyone want to use that Arab show video as "proof" that hooked horses without drivers isn't a good idea?

Myrna


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## JMS Miniatures (Sep 25, 2011)

Doesn't even make a pretty picture IMO.


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## targetsmom (Sep 25, 2011)

I did send AMHA an e-mail calling their attention to the dangerous practice that is shown in the photo and urging them to either edit it so the cart shafts are not visible or remove it.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 25, 2011)

I just watched, again, the video of the Arabian runaway in the harness class (actually, I watched parts of it three times as I was having trouble switching to the Mini Liberty video I actually wanted to watch. Senior moment!) I watched the whole thing even though I have watched it a number of times before. It is every bit as horrific the third or fourth time as the first. The trail of carnage is beyond belief (although I believe no-one was actually seriously hurt) I still wonder if they ever got that horse back in harness.

Tricks like this belong in the Parelli handbook, NOT in real life, where horses actually think for themselves and react to things instinctively!

Polite emails to AMHA should solve the problem hopefully.....


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 25, 2011)

I have been at photo shoots where this was done and winced there too. Each horse had maybe 10-15 minutes with the photographer so they drove it around, got a few pictures, stripped off the bridle and got some "driving horse and owner" headshots, then it was on to the next horse.



It was felt it would take too long to untack completely and put on a show halter.

Honestly, I wouldn't bother writing in about it. People who do that aren't doing it because no one has told them better but because "it's just a mini" and "only for a moment" and the only way they're going to learn is the hard way. Remember that photo of Patrick Swayze posing with his Arab stallion and the thin thread line wrapped around his hand? People do funny things in the name of "Art!"





Leia


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## Kendra (Sep 26, 2011)

That picture's been in the MHW too, makes me cringe.

Not as bad as the Reserve Champion in the 7 & Under driving class I watched the other day on the webcast - Trainer who was riding with the (very!) little girl got out to help pose the Champion for the photos, then when it came time for the victory lap, instead of getting back in she took the reins from the child and ground drove the horse, running behind the cart with the little girl STILL IN THE CART!


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## Sue_C. (Sep 26, 2011)

Kendra said:


> That picture's been in the MHW too, makes me cringe.
> 
> Not as bad as the Reserve Champion in the 7 & Under driving class I watched the other day on the webcast - Trainer who was riding with the (very!) little girl got out to help pose the Champion for the photos, then when it came time for the victory lap, instead of getting back in she took the reins from the child and ground drove the horse, running behind the cart with the little girl STILL IN THE CART!


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 27, 2011)

:arg!



:arg!





She should have been stripped of the title......


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 29, 2011)

If the little girl was good enough to win, she should have been good enough to do her own victory lap. Stupid trainer!

Leia


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## Kendra (Sep 29, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> If the little girl was good enough to win, she should have been good enough to do her own victory lap. Stupid trainer!
> 
> Leia


The little girl sat on the trainers lap for the class, and I don't think having her solo it for her victory lap would've been a good plan either.

But seriously ... gave me a flashback to when I was just as little, catching heck from my Grandad for getting on the wagon before he did. "Unless the driver is sitting down with the reins in his hands, you STAY OFF!"


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 29, 2011)

Oh no, I just meant the trainer should have gotten back in and done the victory lap as they did the class instead of stealing the little girl's thunder in such a spectacularly risky way.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Sep 29, 2011)

Kendra said:


> But seriously ... gave me a flashback to when I was just as little, catching heck from my Grandad for getting on the wagon before he did. "Unless the driver is sitting down with the reins in his hands, you STAY OFF!"


I resemble that remark!




I've been known to say that.

(However, I didn't have a grandad who drove, or even had horses. My family on both sides are city-born folk. My mom wanted to keep a pony in her garage....Now my son has had horses his whole life and they aren't a novelty!



)

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 4, 2011)

In going through the AMHA rulebook for another thread, I did notice on pg. 100 it specifically says: "11. A driver must never allow passengers to enter a vehicle until he/she is seated with the reins in hand and must never dismount while passengers are in the vehicle." So that trainer should have been disqualified for what she did!

 

Leia


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 5, 2011)

Wash your mouth out, child, that trainer was a well known and respected man who has forgotten more than you will ever learn and so is incapable of making a mistake. (honestly I have NO idea who he is!)

It would be hard, but not impossible, to disqualify him after the event, but you would be disqualifying a small child, not the trainer....so....moot point.

I think he should be names and shamed in MHW, though, and given an official reprimand. That would make sure it did not happen again, and that no-one copied him (I am still trying to find the video of the trainer _not_ leading his horse, btw)


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## RhineStone (Oct 5, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> (I am still trying to find the video of the trainer _not_ leading his horse, btw)


I'd like to see that, too.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 5, 2011)

Ha, now that one I think I can find! I know who it was and have seen the video.

Leia


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## Kendra (Oct 5, 2011)

Trainer 'not leading his horse'???

This was a lady trainer. I'm not sure who she was, though I have my suspicions. Glad to see there IS a rule in place against this! Maybe it was dealt with at the show, as I only saw the incident on the webcam. I hope someone raised the concern with show management, at least.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 5, 2011)

A halter trainer who (on a bet, I believe) took his stallion in open halter sans lead and won. They had a great relationship! It was mentioned in the rule change proposal thread because of course someone has now decided there must be a rule against this.





Leia


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## susanne (Oct 6, 2011)

.

You know you're doing something right when they start making rules against what you do!

.


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## Sue_C. (Oct 6, 2011)

susanne said:


> .
> 
> You know you're doing something right when they start making rules against what you do!
> 
> .


Yes, obviously THAT trainer truly did have a rapport with the horse...but IMAGINE the chaos in (especially) a stallion class where several trainers did this, and too late, found that they did NOT have that rapport/control outside of their home ring!!!


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## Kim (Oct 6, 2011)

I believe it was actually a gelding, NOT a stallion.

The internet is a great thing, but unfortunately it allows false information to spread far too easily and that's how rumors get started.


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 6, 2011)

I'm with Kendra. In addition, I think it's too bad that a rule would have to be written to prevent people from doing something which is patently inconsiderate and UNPROFESSIONAL, at best, dangerous at worst...but unfortunately, it seems there is always 'someone' who thinks it's 'clever' to push the envelope, even when it means 'involving' others without their permission.

Of course, it's grand to have a 'great rapport' with your horse; I don't have a horse here that doesn't come to me under most circumstances when I say 'come here', and use their name; they've been rewarded for doing so! It's one thing to be proud of having a good rapport---I get that...but it is QUITE another to decide to 'demonstrate' it under inappropriate conditions...where, if everything DIDN'T go as planned, others(who had NO say in the matter, remember)could well be adversely affected.(And IF this little 'show-off' WAS 'on a bet'? Even worse!!)

Margo


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## Minimor (Oct 6, 2011)

I personally don't have a problem with someone showing their horse that way if they know they can show their horse that way. This particular trainer obviously was confident of his ability and his horse's obedience.

I don't expect that there are many that will try to imitate him--I would doubt that there are that many people who are stupid enough to try it when they have to pretty much KNOW that they cannot control their horse without holding onto the leadshank.


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## Sue_C. (Oct 6, 2011)

Kim said:


> I believe it was actually a gelding, NOT a stallion.
> 
> The internet is a great thing, but unfortunately it allows false information to spread far too easily and that's how rumors get started.



Doesn't really matter the sex, I have seen mares fight worse than stallions, and geldings are horses too. It is simply an unsafe practice.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 6, 2011)

Call me old fashioned but I believe a society should have rules that actually protect the other people in the class, it is rarely the idiots that do the silly things that get hurt.And whilst you still have a rule in place about check reins on the grounds of "safety"....well.

How would you feel if someone decided to show a horse in harness with no bridle on?

Even if it was totally, completely, safe?

It was a silly thing to do, but where was the steward to say, nope, you cannot go in without a lead rein?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 6, 2011)

Kim said:


> on 06 October 2011 - 08:14 AM, said: I believe it was actually a gelding, NOT a stallion.
> 
> The internet is a great thing, but unfortunately it allows false information to spread far too easily and that's how rumors get started.


Wow, sorry, I hadn't considered the gender to be relevant to the story in this case. All I remembered was it was a male horse. My apologies.



Cripes. Didn't meant to "start rumors."

As it happens (having done my research and found the video) yes, it was a gelding and he went Grand during this little exhibition. Guess the judges didn't have a problem with it!







Minimor said:


> I personally don't have a problem with someone showing their horse that way if they know they can show their horse that way. This particular trainer obviously was confident of his ability and his horse's obedience.
> I don't expect that there are many that will try to imitate him...


I agree. Most the halter trainers I've seen are busy shanking their horses until they look like they'd rather be anywhere else. I was rather impressed that a Big Name Trainer had that sort of relationship with his animal and say "more power to him!"





Here is his description of the video: "Over the weekend ____ dared me to show R. without touching the lead. Here's the class. R. is my favorite show horse of all time. He has an awesome will to show!!!" There were almost 80 overwhelmingly positive comments on this video (most of them from well-known breeders, exhibitors and forum members) including people who were there and saw the class in person. The trainer commented, "The judges were very complimentary. I checked the ruled first and in halter there were no problems. I considered doing hunter but there were some rule questions for that so I didn't show hunter however I practiced it in the warm up and he did fine."

The horse appeared to have a halter on and possibly a lead (it was hard to tell from the grainy video), the handler simply didn't touch it. I can't see other exhibitors suddenly going "Oh my God, he won doing that so I must try it too!"



Why try to legislate common sense? There are not suddenly going to be huge "liberty halter" classes because one guy did it one time. We let in harness horses with no training already and drivers who have never held the lines, I don't see how that's any less risky. Much more so in fact!

Can we get back to driving now? I only mentioned the video because Fizz brought it up.

Leia


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## Minimor (Oct 6, 2011)

> The horse appeared to have a halter on and possibly a lead (it was hard to tell from the grainy video), the handler simply didn't touch it. I can't see other exhibitors suddenly going "Oh my God, he won doing that so I must try it too!" Why try to legislate common sense? There are not suddenly going to be huge "liberty halter" classes because one guy did it one time. We let in harness horses with no training already and drivers who have never held the lines, I don't see how that's any less risky. Much more so in fact!


I believe the lead was over the horse's neck the whole time--that's what I was told anyway, I haven't watched the video.
As for the suggestion that someone could try dropping the bridle and driving without lines in some class, it's not going to happen--for one thing there are rules that say driving horses must wear a check and a snaffle bit....so really driving without a bridle is already against the rules. Even if it weren't....I very much doubt anyone would try it!

But in any case, yes, the harness horses with no prior training and the drivers that have never before held the lines are all plenty scary--much more scary than a halter horse with no hand on his lead!


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 7, 2011)

So long as each horse went in on it's own, a "Liberty Halter" class would actually be really cool.

"Dances with Horse" competition?


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## targetsmom (Oct 7, 2011)

There is a class for that around our way - it is called "hands free obstacle". One horse in the ring at a time over trail obstacles, back throughs, etc, and it REALLY tests the handler/horse communication!!


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