# What is the best cart and bit for CDE



## rcfarm (Nov 4, 2009)

What bit do you use? Also what cart is a all around?

I use a Myler bit , love it. I need a new cart, but confused about which kind to buy.






Thanks


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## Shari (Nov 4, 2009)

A lot of people use the Pacific Smart cart or the mini Bellcrown. Just depends on the size your mini is.


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 4, 2009)

It could take a BOOK to even begin to answer comprehensively, but here are just a few points to begin with....

I have used a variety of bits; it really depends on what the horse can be happy, and go well, in. I start horses in a nice no-pinch eggbutt snaffle, and have never had one unhappy with that bit, but have 'moved on', as the horses progress, to: the Myler comfort 'snaffle' (had one that HATED it, however; most others needed something else as they became more 'finished'), the Myler 'mullen action mouth', probably their most widely-used for minis, a half cheek 'standard' mullen mouth, and some butterfly french links. My newest driver, a very 'original UK shetland' type B sized gelding, came with a FIVE inch all-brass mullen mouth liverpool(!); former owner assured me he just 'wouldn't go' in anything else! BUT, I ordered him Iowa Valley Carriage's German silver french link butterfly-thought the 'lay' of the joints and the compostion of the german silver-a copper alloy-was a plus--and so far, this horse seems very comfy in it--he mouthes it a bit when it's first put on, then carries it quietly, but with good 'moisture'.

Carts: don't think anyone would claim there is ANY 'single' cart that is superior for all three phases of CDE, but there are surely many more choices than when I first became interested in it!

A list of some of the 'best' would probably include: Pacific's 'Smart Cart', the mini carts made by Bellcrown USA and Bennington(both are British, but only Bellcrown has a 'franchise' builder in the US; Benningtons must be imported). Also, the few "Missouri Flyers' out there(builder became ill, isn't building any, at least for now), made by Mike G. at IteBte,and the Scotsman, built in the Pacific NW. Although numerous wooden carts are in use, and some serve quite well, by the very nature of their construction, they will not be as manueuverable as the 'mainly metal' carts mentioned above, which can be made w/ marathon shafts, etc. For now, the Hyperbike, a lightweight, wide wheelbase 'sulky' type cart, is being used very successfully by some VSE(Very Small Equine, the ADS' designation for what are basically miniature horses--nominally, 39" and less measured at the top of the withers)drivers in the marathon portion of CDE; however, this *could* conceiveably change, as rules evolve for VSEs. You are supposed to use the same vehicle for Dressage and Cones, but can use a different one for the Marathon(Hazards).

I'm sure there are other builders 'out there'; Ahonen is one that comes to mind, and I imagine others are 'cropping up'. Best is to RESEARCH, RESEARCH, RESEARCH!! Read the ADS rules, and some of the good books available; go to a CDE or ADT, watch and ask questions..most ADS drivers are friendly and helpful(just be considerate; don't approach w/ questions just before they are due to enter their event!





Mary Lou, THANKS for this forum; it is an idea whose time has come!!

Margo (whose first 'stint' as an ADS member was around 10-12 years ago, when I first became interested in CDEs, but due to age and personal circumstances, will likely never be able to be a serious competitor--but this hasn't stopped my interest or intent to learn and know!)


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## susanne (Nov 5, 2009)

In addition, at event management's discretion, training level entries can use pneumatic tires and spoke wheels. (Certain terrains, such as areas with cactus, are NOT pneumatic-friendly...and for any terrain, NoMorFlats are essential)

This allows newbies to test the water before investing in a more specialized cart -- and hopefully check out the carts others are using. So, providing management approves, you can use a Frontier, other easy entries, and other sturdy carts to start, so long as it is safe. Your butt and back won't like it, but it can be done.

Remember that breeching is required (unless your cart has brakes, which is unlikely on a two-wheeled cart). While the rules don't specify any particular overall harness, a show harness WILL NOT be sufficient -- you'll need a more substantial, with a wider breast collar and saddle and better padding.

We, too, use a french link butterfly...just remember that these are not allowed in the breed show ring (which is quite silly, considering there really is no curb action with any broken mouth bit...).


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## nbark (Nov 8, 2009)

When buying a cart for CDE, you cannot use pneumatic wheels (no wire spoked wheels). In ADTs you can, but not in any rated CDE. Also, the marathons are not called hazards anymore, but obstacles, due to PETA making a bit stink about the word "hazards"....just for info only....not trying to step on anyone here..

I own a smart cart and this can be easily converted to a pairs cart, which is what I am up to at the present time...so they are worth the money. They also carry their value, so if you ever decide to sell it, you can pretty much get most of your investment back.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 8, 2009)

I use my Graber show cart for turnout, dressage and cones and my wooden meadowbrook for marathon. I drive a 35" Mini that measures 36.5"as a VSE and who, properly conditioned and very fit, has no trouble at all pulling it, along with me and my navigator, and we have been up some really big hills! We have most often competed in small pony as there aren't usually enough to hold a VSE division in this area although that looks like it may change in the near future. I use a french link half cheek snaffle for dressage and cones and either the same bit or a mullen mouth liverpool, depending on his mood of the day, on the first slot for cross country.


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## susanne (Nov 9, 2009)

nbark said:


> When buying a cart for CDE, you cannot use pneumatic wheels (no wire spoked wheels). In ADTs you can, but not in any rated CDE.


The ADS Rulebook states that pneumatic tires and wire spokes ARE allowed at management's discretion...thus, not all allow them, but many do.

*ADS RULEBOOK*

Chapter 10 The Vehicle

Article 21

2. Wire wheeled and pneumatic tired vehicles may be permitted in the following classes at

management’s discretion.

a. If it is show’s first year as an ADS recognized competition.

b. In all pleasure driving classes if the vehicle is an antique wire wheel vehicle (long wire

spokes, hard rubber tires).

c. In maiden, novice or junior pleasure driving classes.

*d. In Training Level combined driving events.*

*Combined Driving (An Explanation) Page 2*

by: Maureen Harkcom of Happ's, Inc. ~ Ethel, WA

The vehicle must have wooden, steel or smooth hard rubber wheels (Training level only may be permitted pneumatic tires.)...

* *

*
**High Country International CDE*

*
Pneumatic tires allowed ONLY for Training Level (Article*

* *

*
**Beavercreek CDE*

*
Pneumatic tires: Training Level only*

* *

*
**BIRDS HILL INTERNATIONAL COMBINED DRIVING EVENT*

*
Non-bicycle type pneumatic tires are allowed at the training level. (Article *

*
915.3.2)*

* *

*
I do believe I've read that it is less frequently allowed on the east coast, but then again, not all CDEs welcome VSEs.*

* *

*
Again, individual events differ, so the moral of the story is, ASK.*

* *


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## nbark (Nov 9, 2009)

susanne said:


> nbark said:
> 
> 
> > When buying a cart for CDE, you cannot use pneumatic wheels (no wire spoked wheels). In ADTs you can, but not in any rated CDE.
> ...


* *

*
Hi Susanne,*

* *

*
That rule states "If it is an ADS first year as recognized", so what happens after that first year? *

* *

*
I think it would make more sense for people who want to do CDE to just make the investment for a cart that can do both pleasure and competitive then to have to sell, rebuy because of tires.....just my opinion, because that is the mistake I made...started out with an easy entry and had to sell and get my smart cart to compete....*


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 9, 2009)

nbark said:


> Hi Susanne,
> That rule states "If it is an ADS first year as recognized", so what happens after that first year?
> 
> I think it would make more sense for people who want to do CDE to just make the investment for a cart that can do both pleasure and competitive then to have to sell, rebuy because of tires.....just my opinion, because that is the mistake I made...started out with an easy entry and had to sell and get my smart cart to compete....


By the time you have that first year or even first event in



you will know whether this sport is for you and your horse or not and IF you enjoy it you can look at forking out the big bucks for a more competitive vehicle or even just gettting solid tires or steel wheels for your existing cart according to your budget. An easy entry cart is a great little cart to have on hand for training or exercising so I don't feel it is ever money wasted to own and keep one even if you do upgrade to the more competitive vehicle.


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## Minxiesmom (Nov 9, 2009)

Recently, on one of the forums, someone gave a website for buying steel wheels. Can they just be put on any cart...ie.,my American Easy Entry? Does anyone have that website?

What are your "collective" opinions on using an American EE with steel wheels for training level and Prelim. I have used my Jerald show cart with 30" wooden wheels and it worked fine. I am thinking it would be lighter to use the EE, and I want to adapt it to use with a collar and lowered draft.


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## susanne (Nov 9, 2009)

nbark said:


> Hi Susanne,
> That rule states "If it is an ADS first year as recognized", so what happens after that first year?
> 
> I think it would make more sense for people who want to do CDE to just make the investment for a cart that can do both pleasure and competitive then to have to sell, rebuy because of tires.....just my opinion, because that is the mistake I made...started out with an easy entry and had to sell and get my smart cart to compete....


I believe that line a. refers to the event being in its first year.

Line d. is the part that applies to training level competitors:

*d. In Training Level combined driving events.*

My understanding (and I certainly could be wrong on this) is that a driver can use the pneumatic tires/spoke wheels as long as they are at the training level.

As for being better off just investing in a regulation cart, this is true for those who know already that they want to do CDE and for those who have the money to invest. Many CDEs are desperate for entries, and several have gone to that big dressage arena in the sky just this past year. Allowing pneumatic tires/spoke wheels for training level is a great way to get new entries who want to dip their toes, but are not yet ready to go off the high dive.

Steel wheels can indeed be added to an EE, provided they fit the axle and have ample clearance. With a solid black seat (rather than the icky red/white/black standard issue) and black shaft tips, you can have a nice looking basic turnout.

My perennial soap box is that there are no truly versatile carts. As much as I love driving, I'm not going to invest in separate carts for CDE, recreational/trail (2-seat), roadster, and pleasure driving. Perhaps it is unrealistic to expect one cart to do all of the various events, but who has the budget, storage or transportation for a carriage house worth of carts? (We do plan to build a carriage house, but it will be for US to live in!)


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## targetsmom (Nov 9, 2009)

In my admittedly limited experience, every time I have asked about using rubber tires/spoked wheels at ADS events in this area (Northeast) I was told no. It is "management's discretion". So I have 4 carts and counting. And I will add that the EE gets the MOST use because that is what I use for training and for giving cart rides. Absolutely couldn't part with it! And I hate to admit that I have an almost new Jerald that I haven't even used yet (I prefer the Graber). I got the Graber so I could add wooden wheels, which is an option people might want to consider.


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## nbark (Nov 9, 2009)

You are right about using pneumatics in training level, only...A lot of CDEs are trying to get the VSEs to attend, but they definitely do not want the hyperbikes, wheel base is too wide and they don't like the "birthing a mini" look..lol...

My smart cart is being converted to a pair's cart, which is pretty versatile and I use it on the trails..so I am totally happy with a cart that can do anything I want....


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 9, 2009)

nbark said:


> You are right about using pneumatics in training level, only...A lot of CDEs are trying to get the VSEs to attend, but they definitely do not want the hyperbikes, wheel base is too wide and they don't like the "birthing a mini" look..lol...
> My smart cart is being converted to a pair's cart, which is pretty versatile and I use it on the trails..so I am totally happy with a cart that can do anything I want....


Our driving clubs here in Ontario are quite happy to have the VSE's come out with their pneumatic tires. When I suggested that if they allowed them to compete at training level with pneumatic tires that would increase the membership = more money in the club for events. Those that are serious move up in levels and purchase the equipment as necessary.

Just wanted to say nbark, I like your carriage dogs in your avatar! They're cute!!!


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## nbark (Nov 10, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> nbark said:
> 
> 
> > You are right about using pneumatics in training level, only...A lot of CDEs are trying to get the VSEs to attend, but they definitely do not want the hyperbikes, wheel base is too wide and they don't like the "birthing a mini" look..lol...
> ...


That picture was titled "Do you think the pupparazzi will recognize us"? It was taken for a calendar...and thank you, the corgi is mine and the pug is my friends...


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## RhineStone (Nov 10, 2009)

nbark said:


> You are right about using pneumatics in training level, only...A lot of CDEs are trying to get the VSEs to attend, but they definitely do not want the hyperbikes, wheel base is too wide and they don't like the "birthing a mini" look..lol...
> My smart cart is being converted to a pair's cart, which is pretty versatile and I use it on the trails..so I am totally happy with a cart that can do anything I want....



I wouldn't say that organizers and competitors do not want the Hyperbikes. Those that have them love them, and they ARE used quite a bit by people who participate in CDE with their VSEs on a regular basis. They are especially good for those with small minis. I would be a little leary of it being too light for my powerhouse VSE, and my husband likes the idea of keeping his "jewels" protected (I think it would be a stretch to get that done considering the design of the seat, but whatever...), so we don't have one. There have been no discussions that I have heard about limiting the use of them in CDEs either. I guess I wouldn't make that patent comment.

As far as a pair's cart...I would be EXTREMELY careful in driving a pair to a cart. To use an acronym that I learned on this forum, it is SOP to use a pole with a four wheeled vehicle. There are only a few carts historically designed for pairs, as it is VERY easy to dump the whole thing over! It is also very easy for the whole thing to tip backwards as well. We have friends that bought a Meadowbrook at an auction that happened to come with a pole, and the Past President of the Carriage Association of America (CAA) (who was also at the auction) made a special effort to tell them that it is not a good idea to drive a pair to a cart. If you are going to move forward with that idea (and if it were me, I wouldn't), make turns wide. We would hate to hear that you had a terrible accident and we lost a forum member!


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 16, 2009)

RhineStone is quite right on 'both counts' in her post.

There seem to be an increasing number of Hyperbikes in use by VSE drivers for marathons. I was just on the Graham Carriage Works website, trying to decide if I could 'deal with' a Hyperbike, as there ARE things that I personally don't care for about them...i.e., the 48" wheelbase, and the challenges of mount/dismount of the cart, esp. for us 'not-so-spry' older folks, not to mention the fact that your feet will ALWAYS have to be 'up', to a degree at least, in the stirrups. The vehicle has certainly been accepted in CDE and related events 'out West', and does have several positives, for sure(the BIG 'plus' for me would be the nice light weight!)

As I recall, on the website, I found that you can get wheels that have pneumatic tires, OR that have solid rubber(the wheels are a molded composition, so no wire spokes)--so the Hyperbikes could certainly qualify on that point for CDE event above Training level. It is mostly the 'pipe' EE carts like the Frontier and CTM that in their original form wouldn't qualify if above Training level.

There ARE places you can buy steel or perhaps, aluminum? wheels w/ solid rubber that are made to fit the axles, and have the proper hub width for, the aforementioned EE carts, meaning you 'could' use one for above Training level. However, it should be remembered that w/o the 'give' of an air-filled tire, most will ride more roughly, and you still will have the limitations imposed on maneuverabity and stability by their inherent configuration...i.e. width of wheelbase, height of seat , and shaft shape, not to mention their general appearance for presentation/Turnout, as in Dressage. All that said...I agree completely that a GOOD basic EE pipe cart to use for 'everyday', giving rides, training, etc., is a worthwhile investment for anyone at all serious about driving their mini. I am on only my second Frontier in 25 years of dricving(and the first is still in use; I sold it only because I wanted a different color scheme!), and I WILL continue to keep it; it is the 'workhorse' cart!

I also emphatically agree about not using a cart for serious pair driving. Historically, there are only two specific designs of carts--the curricle, and the cape cart--to allow horses to comfortably pull a cart as a pair; just adding a pole to a 'standard' cart design isn't enough, and I'd surely like to hear more about how Pacific has supposedly accomplished altering a cart so that it is COMFORTABLE, and yes, safe, for a pair?!

Frontier, and probably others, offer a pair pole. I actually bought one, and used it BRIEFLY to instigate training of a pair, and for that very limited use, it was fine, but I would not use it for driving regularly. It puts too much pressure/weight on the tops of the horses' necks, due to how the weight distribution is on any 'standard-design' two-wheeled vehicle-and yes, it isn't particularly(safely)maneuverable).

A longtime CD-L member who owns/drives one of the most 'well-known'and winningest mammoth mules, and acquired another, did IMMENSE research and planning, had a individually-designed 'cape cart' custom built here in the US-the Cape cart design is from S.Africa-and does drive her pair to it...but it was a deeply-researched and quite expensive proposition.)

Margo


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## suncountryranch (Nov 19, 2009)

There is a variety of nicely made carts on the market that are very suitable for CDE.

I happen to really like the Pacific Smart cart too.

About nine years ago I questioned the company to see if they would make a mini vehicle. At that time

no mini cart was offered by them, and they would not custom make one. As soon as I found out

that the Smart Cart was in production I bought one and became a dealer. I've always loved

the overall quality of the vehicle and it's adjustability. (If you have any questons, I would be happy to

answer them for you.) You can view a variety of different size minis put to the Smart Cart on my website. http://suncountryminis.homestead.com/Smart...otoGallery.html

The first pix are "A" sized minis, and the mini facing away in a lower picture is also an "A" size at about 32".

The others range from 35 to 37". There are also some pictures showing the cart NOT adjusted to the

horse size properly, but it's a great way to _see_ the difference that can be made in setting up the cart!

The best way to find a cart that works for you is to try it. There are so many factors that go into a decision.

What is perfect for one person is terrible for the next. Each of our driving situations can be completely

different....from the terrain we drive on to our own ability to get in and out of the vehicle quickly!

Drive Happy...

Debra Bohnsack

http://suncountryminis.homestead.com


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## rcfarm (Nov 24, 2009)

Thanks everyone for all the info. I do love the Pacfic Cart, way out of my price range at present. It sure looks like a all around cart. On the other hand I like the look of the wood wheels for dressage, makes for a snazzy turnout.





Carol


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 5, 2009)

susanne said:


> We, too, use a french link butterfly...just remember that these are not allowed in the breed show ring (which is quite silly, considering there really is no curb action with any broken mouth bit...)


I've wondered about these in that context. I have one for Turbo which I expect I'll be starting him in but I'm not sure I trust breed show judges to be educated enough to recognize that it's acting as a snaffle and I'd hate to be disqualified for something avoidable. With no curb chain and used on the snaffle ring that connects directly with the bit, a Butterfly is no more a leverage bit than a Myler with bit perch is. And Myler's are certainly allowed!



nbark said:


> When buying a cart for CDE, you cannot use pneumatic wheels (no wire spoked wheels). In ADTs you can, but not in any rated CDE. Also, the marathons are not called hazards anymore, but obstacles, due to PETA making a bit stink about the word "hazards"....just for info only....not trying to step on anyone here..


Old habits are hard to break...they will always be hazards to me!



And I understand where you're coming from as in your area rated CDE's apparently do no allow pneumatics but I would not say that you can't use them in ANY rated CDE. Every single one in the NW allows them and many people start out using them for Training level until they're sure they want to pursue this sport.



nbark said:


> I own a smart cart and this can be easily converted to a pairs cart, which is what I am up to at the present time...so they are worth the money. They also carry their value, so if you ever decide to sell it, you can pretty much get most of your investment back.
> ...My smart cart is being converted to a pair's cart, which is pretty versatile and I use it on the trails..so I am totally happy with a cart that can do anything I want....


I hope you will be happy with your choice as it would be wonderful to have a cart that could truly do it all. I tend to agree with Margo however, and there's the additional issue that using a two-wheeled cart for a pair in competition is actually against ADS rules. We have one autumn event up here that has been purposefully kept unsanctioned just so people can start their three year olds a little early or drive their pairs to two-wheelers and get a feel for what the sport is like. Even then, the last pair that drove that way flipped over during cones and took off, dragging the Frontier all the way across the field and behind the barn to their trailer. Thankfully no one was hurt and the horses remained perfectly calm as they galloped off but it could have been quite bad and it spooked the heck out of all the other horses (like mine) who were waiting for the start of marathon.

I will be using a pole with my Frontier to start my own pair in a couple of years, but only on flat ground at slow speeds until we see how they do. If it looks like they'll work out I'll invest in a four-wheeler and go from there.



Minxiesmom said:


> What are your "collective" opinions on using an American EE with steel wheels for training level and Prelim. I have used my Jerald show cart with 30" wooden wheels and it worked fine. I am thinking it would be lighter to use the EE, and I want to adapt it to use with a collar and lowered draft.


The only two things I will warn you about are driver comfort and stability. Once you've put steel wheels on a coil-spring pipe cart like that the ride (what little there was already) turns to stone. I still use mine that way, but it is very uncomfortable across rough ground at speed and I know not everyone's back is as young and forgiving as mine.



Of more concern to me is the high center of gravity. I've run Kody through craziness with all of my carts and the Frontier was the only one I felt would flip if I wasn't very, very careful. You'd need to make some sort of addition to keep you centered in the seat because if you slide while going at speed it'll be all over. If you hit a bump with the inside wheel while making a fast turn and aren't already leaning that way, it's all over. If you get slide up against a rut with the outside wheel, it's all over. Do you see where I'm going with this?



I love my Frontier, don't get me wrong, and I'd use one in a heartbeat for Training level and beginning Prelim if that was all I had. I just want you to be aware of the risks and prepared to counteract them before you count on it as an upper level marathon vehicle. One of its primary benefits is that it's light, but that same lightness makes it easy to flip.



nbark said:


> A lot of CDEs are trying to get the VSEs to attend, but they definitely do not want the hyperbikes, wheel base is too wide and they don't like the "birthing a mini" look..lol...


"They" must have multiple personality syndrome...West Coast CDE's have no problem with Hyperbikes and I know of at least one lady back East using one for competition.



I wonder what their problem with the wheelbase is? It's not like they'd have to reset big horse hazards to allow them through and most people do not use them for cones as they'd have to use them for dressage too. As for the birthing-a-mini look, well, yes, it looks a bit silly sometimes. Still, since when has the organizer had the right to veto a vehicle because they didn't like the way it looked??





Leia


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