# Spring Grass Founder Warning for the Newbies Here



## Marty (Apr 1, 2010)

Here I go again with the new spring grass trying to burst through the ground at a rapid rate. It only took a few days of warmer sunshine after all the rain we've had to encourage my fields to turn green. The horses are loving it but me, not so much. Every year I go through this same ordeal of letting them on it for an hour, then chasing them back down into the dry lot kicking and screaming "we want to stay up there!"

My plan is always, the first week they are exposed to the new growth an hour a day, the next week two 1/2 hours or so, the following week another increase and so on. This schedule usually works for me depending on how lush and plush my fields are growing and sometimes its still too much grass and we have to back off of it.

Being with CMHR, its gotten to the point that its safe to say 50% or more horses we have are foundered, have been foundered in the past, or are having a laminitis attack in progress. We have had much luck with most of them in re-hab but let me tell you this is hard work to get them back on their feet, mobile and pain free. We have only lost 2 horses out of many who were very severly rotated and in complete agony that we could not help. If only people would see the signs and know the signs, this wouldn't always have to happen.

Most of us here already know about this website, but for those that don't, this is a great little link for you to bookmark to learn about the dangers of spring grass growth.

http://www.safergrass.org/

This has been a public service announcment






Best wishes to all and have a great safe spring


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## Hosscrazy (Apr 1, 2010)

Thanks for posting, Marty. Katy Watts is a pioneer in this field and her website is something that everyone should bookmark and refer back to.

Thanks again,

Liz R.


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## Julie/Azariah (Apr 1, 2010)

Marty I do the same as you... gradually working them up... even with my biggies. I start with 1/2 hr to 45 min...and gradually increase each week. And they are beggers to chase in the first few days.

The other day I about had a heart attack... before this warm spurt, but after the grass had greened enough that I wasn't letting them on it. We had just put pig manure and fertilized it and waiting for the rain to wash it in. Over night I had two little mares together and one knocked the gate off the hinges...got into a small grass area.

I went in and counted poops... 5 in there between the two of them.. and they each pooped when they got back in their paddock. Which told me they had been out there most of the night.

Called the vet immediately and they recommended banamine, cold hosing and we used biosponge. and NO grain for several days. I watched them several days and thank goodness we have seen no evidence of any founder. I checked for heat in their feet and pulses and all has been ok

I am feeling VERY fortunate.

Even though I don't turn them out for unlimited turn out... ever. I like to at least have them worked up to about 3-4 hours... then if they would get into a grass area over night, they are typically more safe that way. It is a lot of extra work moving horses but sure beats having foundered horses!


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## sedeh (Apr 1, 2010)

I have smaller pasture areas that become my "dry lot" areas in the spring. I only have seasonal grass....dries up in the summer and that's worse than established pasture. I've had problems with horses getting laminitis in the past and have one mare that has a problem every spring even on the sparse "dry lot" areas. I've learned I have to put them in the smaller yards in Feb already, they won't get their bigger pasture until the grass is browning up in June. Then I still have to limit their time out until their used to it.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 1, 2010)

Have to say I am the complete opposite.

My horses are out 24/7 and the grass started two weeks ago.

They are still all out on it (8 on five acres) and, I have to admit, although I am well aware of founder and it's problems, I have only ever had three cases in over thirty years, using this method. And one was a pony that came with it, and the other two go "footy" and I have to pull them off for a couple of weeks, (nto onto a dry lot. I do not do dry lots).

There is another way of looking at this problem.

The horses are trying to shove a days grazing down their throats in an hour, so the risk of laminitis is high.

If they are always out on the grass they are never frantic for it, and just graze. Same as ad lib hay, which mine have and do not abuse.

This is the way horses were meant ot be, and I would hate people to get the idea they cannot allow their horses to graze, as this quite patently is not true.

If they are out already when the grass comes in the danger is limited, as they do not "pig out" but just go on grazing.

If the grass is particularly lush, as cow pasture can be, it is more than possible to limit intake with a hot wire.


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## krissy3 (Apr 1, 2010)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Have to say I am the complete opposite.My horses are out 24/7 and the grass started two weeks ago.
> 
> They are still all out on it (8 on five acres) and, I have to admit, although I am well aware of founder and it's problems, I have only ever had three cases in over thirty years, using this method. And one was a pony that came with it, and the other two go "footy" and I have to pull them off for a couple of weeks, (nto onto a dry lot. I do not do dry lots).
> 
> ...



I do have to agree . There are of corse exceptions. In my pasture the grass is only about 1 inch in some places at the most right now... the horses are not going to over indulge on 1/4 to 1 inch of grass at a time, but the grass will grow and there will be a day that the grass is more then they can handle.... I do however have a dry lot in case one needs to loose weight or cut back on the richness of the grass. My dry lot is never without some sort of food to eat though,... even if its straw. Ever wonder why some horses never colic or get laminitis , and the horse is out all the time in lush grass , little or no shelter? then the next barn over that stalls its horses day after day , and gives special diets of this and that has a horse that is always ill, and suffers from laminitis? I agree that a horse CAN live 24 /7 on grass, but I also think that Rabbitfizz has shetlands and not AMHA horses and they are about as different as night and day ,I strongly believe that the "man made " AMHA horses are at a higher risk for such things as colic and laminitis tooth problems , and birthing complications. JMO So I vote for the grazing muzzle, under supervision


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## Becky (Apr 1, 2010)

Thanks for posting that reminder, Marty.

Anytime the grass is high in sugar content from stress, drought, etc., the risk for laminitis increases. Unfortunately, I've learned firsthand way more about laminitis over the past few years than I ever wanted to.

For me, dry lot is the only way to go with an IR horse (insulin resistant). The horses don't have to starve; just simply kept off the pasture with the right kind of fiber, vitamins and minerals. Plus a farrier that knows how to trim. A low heel and short toe for most laminitic horses.


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## wingnut (Apr 1, 2010)

Thanks Marty! I wince a bit when I look out on the upper pasture and how little to no grass is out there right now. The lower pasture was seeded in October so we won't be putting them on there until at least June. I know that this is actually a good thing for them but I feel bad that they're grazing on teeney bits of nothing



Plenty of hay though, of course


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## chandab (Apr 1, 2010)

Becky said:


> Thanks for posting that reminder, Marty.
> Anytime the grass is high in sugar content from stress, drought, etc., the risk for laminitis increases. Unfortunately, I've learned firsthand way more about laminitis over the past few years than I ever wanted to.
> 
> For me, dry lot is the only way to go with an IR horse (insulin resistant). The horses don't have to starve; just simply kept off the pasture with the right kind of fiber, vitamins and minerals. Plus a farrier that knows how to trim. A low heel and short toe for most laminitic horses.


I"m right there with you Becky, I too unfortunately know first hand about laminitic horses. Luckily, I don't have an IR horse, as that adds to the frustration, but keeping 3 from having laminitic attacks keeps me plenty busy (one due to contaminated feed and two due to illness - all are on the road to recovery and doing well with management).


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## Julie/Azariah (Apr 1, 2010)

Our pastures are LUSH. We have them divided and rotate horses on them. We actually bale and feed all 30 of our horses with our own hay (7 big horses 22 minis) AND have plenty to sell. We only bale about 7-10 acres, get 2 to 3 cuttings.

We even have to hold our big horses off of them because they get too fat. Our big horses are out about 12 - 14 hours a day (over night) and in stalls or dry lots the rest of the time in the summer, and about 8 hours a day in the winter during the day. But... when they start to get too heavy...then we cut the grazing time down. We have used grazing muzzles, but our horses are very happy to be off grass several hours a day. They can be found flat out and snoring in their stalls in the bottom of the stone bank barn (nice and cool in there)

They get hay if they want it in the summer and plenty over the winter.

Our minis... depending on their weight are on anything from dry lots to dry lots and up to 6 or so hours of lush grass time...if we have them on a tiny pasture that is eaten down....then they get longer grass time. They know the routine and usually come running in when it is time to come off grass (except if I am weaning them up and on a short time :O)

I agree that horses were designed to graze all the time and we allow ours to graze as much as it is safe for them... But today.... our grass areas are lush, not like they used to be when horses grazed freely.

I see a lot of farms where their fields are what I would consider safe to graze horses all the time... but not mine.

I know we are not in a "normal" situation, and there are years that I can keep them on all the time if we are having a year with little rain. But lately... it has been great having an over abundance to keep our horses healthy and happy and our barns full!!!


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 2, 2010)

krissy3 said:


> I do have to agree . There are of coarse exceptions. In my pasture the grass is only about 1 inch in some places at the most right now... the horses are not going to over indulge on 1/4 to 1 inch of grass at a time, but the grass will grow and there will be a day that the grass is more then they can handle.... I do however have a dry lot in case one needs to loose weight or cut back on the richness of the grass. My dry lot is never without some sort of food to eat though,... even if its straw. Ever wonder why some horses never colic or get laminitis , and the horse is out all the time in lush grass , little or no shelter? then the next barn over that stalls its horses day after day , and gives special diets of this and that has a horse that is always ill, and suffers from laminitis? I agree that a horse CAN live 24 /7 on grass, but I also think that Rabbitfizz has shetlands and not AMHA horses and they are about as different as night and day ,I strongly believe that the "man made " AMHA horses are at a higher risk for such things as colic and laminitis tooth problems , and birthing complications. JMO So I vote for the grazing muzzle, under supervision


Sorry, Krissy, I have tried to explain this to you, but I do not, in fact have a single Shetland on the place. I would never use a grazing muzzle, not unless there was medical reason to do so, I really do not see any problem with my horses being a little fat, so long as it does not affect their health.

As I did explain to you, AMHA horses are _not_ the only Miniature Horses !


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## RockRiverTiff (Apr 2, 2010)

More good advice from Marty! My mares are throwing a fit because we're letting the pastures grow out now, but next week they'll start going out for a little bit every day, gradually building up. Our QH mares are out 24/7, but I'm always careful with the minis. Like some others have said, I have seen what founder can do to a horse, so for me I'd rather err on the side of caution.


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## albahurst (Apr 2, 2010)

So, here is a question about pastures and lushness:

We have a native prairie grass pasture. What are your thouht s and feelings about grazing time on such a pasture? It certainly can get lush, but the grass is small right now and all native, prairie. I wonder if it is as lush as what others of you are referring to?


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## chandab (Apr 2, 2010)

albahurst said:


> So, here is a question about pastures and lushness:We have a native prairie grass pasture. What are your thouht s and feelings about grazing time on such a pasture? It certainly can get lush, but the grass is small right now and all native, prairie. I wonder if it is as lush as what others of you are referring to?


I think it depends on the native prairie you have... We graze our nursing cows on native prairie pasture most of the summer, and they usually raise some good sized calves and most are fat themselves; so I hesitate to graze my minis on the same grass. [How good the grass is depends on moisture and other factors, but most years, ours makes for some pretty fat cows.] My minis do get out on some mixed pasture (improved pasture and native pasture mixed) in the summer, but only for 4-6 hours at most depending on my schedule and the grass available (then dry lot at night - don't want them to get fat and my pasture fences aren't coyote proof).


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 2, 2010)

I, too, have native pasture. I try to put my horses in a dry lot at night in the spring, just so they don't get so fat. I don't worry about founder. They have 25 acres to keep moving on, plus they are driving horses and also go for long walks with me.

I am wondering if all the vaccinations are resulting in so much laminitis and other auto-immune disorders. Here is an article:

http://www.equinewellnessmagazine.com/art/aV24_35.php

I realize horses that are boarded, or on the show road have different needs.

It's time for me to think about rabies for my boys and I think I will ask the vet about a titer before I automatically vaccinate.


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## krissy3 (Apr 2, 2010)

I have miniature shetlands ...32 inches tall, from France, NOT linked to the US in any way, I also have a horse from Florida, AMHA NOT linked to Europe in any way. These horses are NOT the same horse , the metabolism is not the same. You can not expect all shetlands 34 inches and below 34 inches and above to tolerate a lush green grass pasture 24 /7 without a high risk of Laminitis. There is not a vet in the world that wouldnt agree with this statement. There may be an exception or 2 but sooner or later there will be a problem. This post is a good post, and people need to be aware of the dangers of grass. Rabbitfizz... your shetlands or ponies or small horses or whatever you need to call them are native to the area to which they live in ..unless you have purchased a miniature horse with the blood lines with the horses in the US. I know there are 13 hand shetlands , I have seen them, there are also 32 inch shetlands I OWN 2 of them. regardless of the inches , 32 or 33 or 34, there is a differewnce between a native "small equine" and the AMHA registered "small equine" from the United States. Anyone that has 1 of each can battle this one out with me. The SVPK wont compete there shetlands against the American "type" of shetland (AMHA reg.) there is no way to put them in the same arena , even if they measure the same at the withers. The cannon bones are 2x as thick , the chest wall is 2x as thick they are 2x as wide . Their legs are short and bodys are strong and powerful. They dont have a long archy neck, dished head, and refined leg, even the native "small equine" has a bigger hoof.sorry to be so blunt , but theses horses are totally different.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 3, 2010)

I am sorry to drag this thread into this but I have to refute what Krissy is saying.

I have, privately, tried to make her understand.

I have been breeding MINIATURE HORSES for 30 years now. All my foundation stock was registered AMHA but, since there is a British Society and I live here, all my horses are registered with the BMHS, not the AMHA.

An awful lot of AMHA horses have UK Shetland in their pedigrees, I know because I exported a few of them, in my time, and yes, they do have a weakness to really lush grass, but there is no reason why, correctly managed, they cannot manage adequately on all except the most lush of pasture.

It is not possible to explain to the US members just how insulting the use of "Shetland" is to Miniature Horse breeders here, as your Shetlands are elegant little horses, but Krissy does understand this, and I see no reason why I should just allow her to insult me on an open Forum, so, apologies to Marty, who started this thread in good faith.

I stand by all advice I have given, btw, the metabolism of any Miniature Horse is pretty much the same as any other equine, each individual horse will differ, and it is, most certainly, better to be safe than sorry.

"Anything in moderation" is a good way to go, I find. If horses are well used to grazing, and it is not too lush, they are normally safe to be left on it, it is when they have had to be over wintered inside, and are first coming out onto spring grass that they are in danger.


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## barnbum (Apr 3, 2010)

I don't have too much pasture--maybe 1.5 acres. It gets less lush every year--and usually only if it's a wet summer. What's so awesome now is that all my herd of five is finally together again (mamas finally stopped letting the babies nurse the last time I tried them together! so I can actually close off pastures as needed to let one grow out a bit. Or--leave it all open and let them wander as they wish. Oh happy day--happy summer.

They do chunk up a bit if there's a lot of grass, but they lose it in the winter. I'd rather have them walking about that limit their movement. But--I don't have as much of an area to worry about.


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## krissy3 (Apr 3, 2010)

No ,I dont know the difference between a Miniature horse and a shetland , even though I have 2 of each.



I dont get offended when people call my miniature horse a shetland , and vice versa. ANYWHO:: The topic was a good one , people dont realize the danger of over indulgence on grass for "small equines" Shetlands or Miniature Horses or American Miniature Horses , or American Shetland ponys...on and on and on. What I have learned from this forum and from many seminars I have attended on feeding these small equines is the strong belief of feeding protien and adding hay- fibor to the protien based diet. A lot of vets believe this , and to a point I agree. People need to be reminded that pasture grass can be deadly to some horses, big and small shetland and non shetland... so its good to remind everyone


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## pinkapache (Jun 1, 2010)

I have to agree with Krissy on this one, you only have to look at an american miniature to see the difference of long slender legs as opposed to the short thick ones etc of the mini shetland type, the whole build is different. miniature shetlands may have been exported to the States way back, but they look nothing like that now, its how they look - and not the registrations that depict what they are. I have a couple of each so am not biased either way (non-american miniature shetlands and imported amha horses) and find a HUGE difference in calorific needs. In summer I have to watch the mini shetlands big time as they are really good doers whereas the american miniatures are fine in summer and dont get fat easily at all, but in winter need twice as much feed as the mini shetlands do.

This was a very good subject to start, as a horse doesnt need to be fat to founder, its the high sugar in the grass in spring and autumn that causes a bad reaction in the horse that causes the laminae to start dying. Being overweight is something that certainly makes this way more likely to happen but we should regularly check for heat in all our mini`s hooves on a regular basis during spring and summer months.


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## MountainMeadows (Jun 1, 2010)

OK folks - I have a question. We live here in the soggy NW and I reseeded my pastures this spring and have kept the horse off of them until they are well established -- that would be now. They are long and lush, but it has been very, very wet here -- do my horses still have the same problems with laminitis as those in "sweeter" areas without so much rain? My kids, the horses, are looking at me like I am the evil Grinch since I haven't turned them out yet ! ! !

Stacy


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## Marty (Jun 1, 2010)

Three years into miniatures, when I realized the relationship of founder in minis, that is when I stopped seeding and fertilizing our fields and don't worry about it anymore.Less is more. We also keep it mowed down to the nubs now cause we all know I'm paranoid of everything. We've had a bunch of rain lately and the horses are coming in dragging just after a couple of hours. This is not good.

Stac, I think your geological location and elevation and soil content is going to play a big part in this beings you are in upstate Washington. You could check with your vet and Ag. Dept. I would just take precautions, mow those fieids way down, and limit exposure to be on the safe side.


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## AppyLover2 (Jun 2, 2010)

Like a lot of other areas we've had a lot of rain this spring. Grass is definitely lush and growing like mad. Had quite a surprise a week ago when my big horse came down with colic. He had been out 24/7 and this was the first time he's had any reaction to the grass.....but vet said that "knee high white clover is the worst thing in the world for horses. Great for cattle but not horses". The thing about clover being bad for horses surprised me.....but now not only are my mini's off the pasture, so is the big guy.


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## Shari (Jun 2, 2010)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I am sorry to drag this thread into this but I have to refute what Krissy is saying.
> 
> I have, privately, tried to make her understand.
> 
> ...



I don't think anyone is trying to insult you. I am not either but I also won't tell people that these animals, are genetically something they are not. Other people can do as they wish, what ever but I won't. And I know people that own traditional Shetlands too.

The AMHA Mini's are Genetically Shetland horses. I had Maggie tested(since I am moving, everything is packed in a box somewhere), her line was originally Dell Tera, aka pure bred old fashioned Shetland. The gentleman that started that line had some of the original Shetlands. The breeders in the past had a hard time selling them as Shetlands, so a few banded together and started calling them Miniature horses. Along with breeding for more refinement over the many years, the sales started picking up by calling them Miniature Horses.

Seeing the American Miniature horse(Shetland genetic's, no way to get away from that, sorry), that has been refined for a long time, compared to the traditional Shetland's in the Islands and the few that have been imported here. The Shetland Island Shetlands, even if they are the same height, are much more hardy, than the American Miniatures.

Another tale tale sign.. is they don't have winter coats like horses. They have Pony coats. TB, Arabs and so on have horse type winter coats.

Personally, I like the truth and genetic's tell this. I love them no matter what.

Anyway... I can't let mine out in spring at all. Grass is too rich. Once summer comes,, if it ever does this year and Once the main day pasture is hayed, then they will be let back out during the day. The grass is fine here the rest of the year and so far, never had a problem.


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## shorthorsemom (Jun 2, 2010)

Thanks for the reminder Marty. Anybody that has gone through the heartbreak of founder and lost will forever be affected by it. I had a full sized horse founder many years ago. I didn't want to put him in a muzzle, and I said those exact words about not caring if he was fat as long as he got exercise and grazing time 24/7 and could move around. I didn't want to put him in a muzzle and refused to believe he was at risk. He was not aged and the pasture was not lush. He foundered in a drought and that is when I learned about stressed grasses and sugar. I also had a shetland pony that foundered on a pasture that was well grazed and short. He was not overly fat either. It just happened. I will always restrict my pasture for my two miniatures and start out very slow each spring exactly like Marty described. My boys will never graze 24/7.

On my boy that tends to be IR, he will go out wearing a muzzle so he doesn't spend extensive time in the dry lot looking sad. He can get some grass through the muzzle, just cannot gobble. He walks around alot with his limited grazing and gets healthy exercise. My dry lot is a paddock with pea gravel in it for healthy feet and support of the sole.

I do in my mind believe there is a over vaccination, one size fits all connection somewhere, but please do not fry me for that opinion. I had a vet tell me that 75% of ponies eventually develop cushings in their lifetime. I do believe there is theory that overvaccination and cushings are related. Cushings can cause founder. Ponies typically founder easier than horses...

Sometimes I do call my miniature horses "the ponies" as a fond term, I have never really cared or got wired about people calling my boys ponies even though they have papers and are AMHR AMHA registered. I did learn alot about shetlands and their part of miniature horse history by reading this thread. I got into miniature horses after a bad wreck on a full sized horse. I love them, whatever they are called or wherever they came from. I love their temperament and how smart they are and how easy they learn things. I really love their size and how easy it is for me to handle them.	I love this forum and all you can learn, and the enjoy the support and spirit of everyone that posts comments. thanks.


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## Relic (Jun 2, 2010)

l open the gates to let everyone out the last week in June and they are out 24/7 till the middle of Sept..they also have 24/7 access to round bales the rest of the year so are always self feeding and don't seem to feel a need to pig out from winter to summer changes. The 10 stallions on the other hand are hand fed twice a day and slowly day by day get turned out till they are used to an open menu of food in front of them all the time..we very seldom ever have colic unless l fed someone something l shouldn't have that was either old or off in the way of bagged feed. Oh and once when l made my daughters mare deadly ill after l used roundup to kill some grass on the other side of a fence and she stuck her head through the rails and ate what l sprayed which l didn't think she could reach but she did the cow. l do believe some minis are hardier then others with free choice pasture..we have a mare now we bought and she really doesn't fit in with our herd and the way they were raised so am thinking after another foal from her she needs to move along to another home that doesn't free choice all year as she's not fitting in and needs to be seperate most of the time or she would colic and perhaps even founder on us.


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## krissy3 (Jun 2, 2010)

I have the safe grass CDs... and watch them over and over again, there is so much information on them.. I was told by this woman , and a vet that specializes in laminitice to feed the Miniature horses as if they had laminitice... Since I have been doing this the horses look fabulous . I allow them on very short grass for a maximum of 5 hours a day, and feed them only 2nd or 3rd cut hay, as a side dish with a good feed suppliment, vit.min... its working for very well. This woman Kathy is brilliant .


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## rabbitsfizz (Jun 2, 2010)

Stacey I would honestly have it cut back before letting them out on it now.

Mine are out 24/7 at the moment, but I have two two acres fields grazed right down with ten horses on it.

The colts are out all day, but they came up from 24/7 grazing so that does not help!

I would cut it back and use a hotwire to introduce them slowly. There is no reason why these minis cannot safely go out on acceptable length grass, but everywhere, States and Europe, seems to have kneedeep grass this year!


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## barnbum (Jun 12, 2010)

Having my first case of laminitis this year--and having had minis for 7 years... I'm forced to rethink everything.

I know my horses well, and caught Rosie early so she has a mild case, although she wasn't diagnosed right away. I have low quality, sparse grass (it's way too low to mow), horses were limited as to how far they could wander by closing gates, horses are stalled 10-12 hours--and Rosie still had trouble. Amazing.

Muzzles will be a norm here, and the pastures will be cut in half for the entire spring/summer. Rosie is now used to her muzzle, so things are going well for her. She has no pain--has been walking normally since the day after she was off grass. As soon as the three muzzled arrive in the mail, the mares will also wear them. Since the yearlings are pastured with Rosie and mares, their grass is very limited, so I won't muzzle them yet.

I'd rather kill the grass and feed hay all summer.

Marty--thanks for the warning... I hope you repeat it every year.


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