# What does AMHA need to do to survive?



## ruffian (Oct 5, 2012)

Let's be nice -- but what are some things that AMHA needs or should do to increase participation at shows? The classes I've watched at Worlds are tiny compared to Nationals.

Some things I've thought of would be moving the World show - perhaps rotate it again like they used to? Find a way to have/support/promote local shows? Change the judging system?

I've been a member of AMHA pretty much since they started, and would hate to see them disappear.


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Oct 5, 2012)

Somehow they need to get more clubs to put on shows in different parts of the US as certain areas (like ours) have very few shows that are a reasonable driving distance. I do think moving the World show would help even if it just moves to Tulsa, gets it that much closer for some of us that would love to go. I realize it is probably hard to find facilities to host the larger numbers of horses. I do think that some of the classes at the World show are huge, have seen some good sized halter classes, Liberty had a lot of entries as did the showmanship/obstacle classes and some of the driving classes so I dont think that AMHA is necessarily hurting as there seems to be a lot of horses there but still would love to see it more convenient for those of us that want to go. We prefer AMHA and the type they promote so it bothers us not being able to participate in a lot of their shows/world show. One reason that AMHA also has smaller classes than Nationals is simply that there is more work involved to qualify, pretty much anyone can go to Nationals with hardly any effort, just have to go to two shows and show in at least one class at each, AMHA is more difficult (which I do like) even if you do the hardship qualification you still must show in every class you would want to at Worlds which also helps support the local level shows. Hope all that makes sense and just my personal opinions.


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## MindyLee (Oct 5, 2012)

I agree with you Dana. I also would LOVE to show my 34" and unders at a AMHA show instead of AMHR where the lil ones get over looked.

I also hate DNA testing. I know its a good thing, BUT AMHR dose just fine without it. Its a lot of extra $$$ to spend when theres no AMHA shows around to help promote them and most of the time, folks (me included) own double reg horses but only AMHR the foals unless (I)/breeders keep the foals ourselfs.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 5, 2012)

I agree with the lack of shows across the country can certainly cause a problem when it comes to qualifying cause yes it takes more effort to qualify for your classes compared to AMHR Nationals by the explanation involved. But hey who knows if the show gets too big they may change it. Right now at Nationals the barns are full at Tulsa with a steady number of 1500 each year. Of course that includes the B division but the A division is by far the biggest. The prices may be higher at Worlds compared to Nationals, certainly with their stall fees but the awards are so much nicer.

I have been seriously considering hardshipping in my 2 boys next year so I can possibly go to Worlds, I don't think AMHA is doing anything wrong when it comes to their show but like Mary Lou said promotion does help.

And this is off topic but personally I wish AMHR did start making mandatory DNA. They have already started with the Sweepstakes foals but I think its about time that they should make it mandatory. What I do agree with tho is AMHA prices are pretty high compared to AMHR which makes it hard to do any registration work with both. But again this is off topic.


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## ruffian (Oct 5, 2012)

I agree that having to qualify for a particular class or division will cut the numbers down - especially when there are so few shows. Michigan used to have 2 or 3 and now none. The closest to me now is 6 hours away.

So being able to qualify is not feasible for me. Unless you send everything with a pro trainer and pay huge fees for transporting to the shows. I know because I did that 3 years ago, sending my stallion with a pro trainer. Even then there were more entries in the classes than it seems this year. I know for sure that the 32 - 34 CP driving at Nationals had 52 entries. AMHA had 9 or 10.

AMHA is a great registry and needs to stay alive! What would YOU suggest to save it??


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 5, 2012)

I have no insight into what AMHA should do to increase participation but I watched both the Nationals and Worlds and the difference in class sizes was astonishing.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 5, 2012)

I think next year will be critical when it comes to bringing in new members and participation at not just Worlds but local shows as well and supporting the clubs. Mostly because of the closing of hardship at the end of next year. I really wish and this of course would be my own benefit that the last year they would cut the hardship fees in half. Hands down I would for sure hardship in my 2 boys and potentially gives them 2 extra horses in the show ring. Cutting the hardship would also bring in new members as I am currently not a member of AMHA. AMHR did this and they reported that it has been a great success.

I'm not sure if you can change the qualification rule because now you can start qualifying for the 2013 World Show and show in at least 2 shows under at least 6 judges, and if the shows didn't have the class you were trying to qualify for you have to show the show bill, etc... I'm not 100% on the rest of the rule.


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## Marty (Oct 5, 2012)

I wonder if its because so many people have gone on the Shetland bandwagon so that's why people prefer to show R.

How much of the modern Shetland influence is actually at Worlds in comparrison to Nationals?


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## disneyhorse (Oct 6, 2012)

Marty said:


> I wonder if its because so many people have gone on the Shetland bandwagon so that's why people prefer to show R.
> 
> How much of the modern Shetland influence is actually at Worlds in comparrison to Nationals?


We have active clubs in my area for both mini registries. As a new owner, and new to showing... It was much more expensive to show AMHA. The class fees were higher, the registry work was higher... And the showing structure seemed more complicated. In AMHA there were amateur levels and qualifying points and it seemed overwhelming. The cost alone turned me away from ever showing AMHA. I had shown in an AMHR show, and then compared the cost to entering AMHA and decided on sticking with R.

Plus, once I had bought minis of both A and B sizes, I could do more and show all of them at one R show so that's what I stuck with.

Just my situation.

But each situation is unique and I think there will always be fans of something.

As to the ASPC influence in AMHA, I saw posts of some doing very well at worlds so I know they're there...


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## CFM_Minis (Oct 6, 2012)

I have always wondered why AMHA doesnt come closer or into Canada?? More particularly the Ontario region. We have allot of minis owners here and I have always been interested in AMHA just cant drive so far to show 

Maybe there is a good reason why they dont come here that im missing though


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## 2minis4us (Oct 6, 2012)

In the Pacific Northwest looking at the show results anything 30" and under there is maybe one or 2 horses. I think that is sad.


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## Minimor (Oct 6, 2012)

CFM--in order to bring AMHA I to your area you have to have someone local to organize the shows. Local shows--of any registry--do not get organized by the registry, they are organized by local clubs, show committees or individuals. The registry simply sanctions the show once the local organizers have it all planned.


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## LaVern (Oct 6, 2012)

Agree Minimor. Everyone including myself always says," they". It isn't "they" it is "we" that would have to put on shows. They just don't happen. The work and the comittment that the people that put these shows on -whichever registry - is overwhelming.

If you really want a show you can do it yourself if you have the brains and want to work that hard, while sacrificing your own horses.

On another note, it is usually the average guy or local club that does all this work and the professional trainers that benifit. You don't see them downhitting the streets looking for sponsors or in the arena setting up jumps or buying stuff at the raffels to support the show. (maybe that sounds harse and I am sure there are some that do in their own local area.)


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## ohmt (Oct 6, 2012)

Too expensive and only 2 in the area (one about 8 hrs away) and then the classes are very small. So that is why when I did show it was with AMHR. Plus, all of my horses are AMHR, but only some AMHA (way too expensive to hardship).

Wanted to add that I love both registries, it was just easier for me to get to those AMHR shows


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## Riverrose28 (Oct 6, 2012)

I agree with what all of you have said, but my take: when we started showing years ago the clubs in our area, like a three or four hour drive, would host AMHA & AMHR, the entries were always less at the AMHA shows so they stopped hosting them. this is just my opinion, but the big time trainers have taken over AMHA, the ammy classes are really not ammy classes, as I've seen trainers hand the horse off to the ammy, so they are pro trained. AS for AOTE, the rule book states that in order to qualify the horse must be trained by the Owner and not have been at a trainers since Jan of the year being shown, so people will have their horse professionally trained then enter the classes. Now really nothing wrong with that if you have the money to hire a pro. I can't flame those that do, cause I've done the same myself. Most people that are new to mini's just don't have the money to pay a trainer thousands to show & travel, it's only a few that have that kind of money in this economy. Now that attendence is done, locally and the shows are further away there is added costs involved for the average Joe owner, only to spend all that money and lose to a pro. Believe me I've gone to shows where I havn't had any horses entered, just to watch and seen the horses with trainers place, when they shouldn't have, some act up in the ring and the judge gives the trainer extra time to set up, but will walk past the AVerage Joe that is having trouble, not always, but just sometimes.

It would help the organization to go back and encourage the clubs that hosted their shows in the past to do so again, also the regional shows need to rotate locations, as in my area it is always in the North and too far away. One year it was hosted just six hours away and that worked for us as I'd be willing to attend every other year. Yes they need to pomote more, and have an ammy class for AOTE exhibitors that actually trained their own horses from day one to encourage new people with little money to show up. Also I belong to both organizations, but havn't been able to show for a couple of years, but would like to get back to it.


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## bevann (Oct 6, 2012)

I agree with river rose.I am president of the Delmarva Minhiature Horse Club and several years back we hosted both AMHA &AMHR shows on the same weekend.We dropped AMHA after losing money on it for several years.I did a cost breakdown AMHA horses entered approximately 1.3 classes per horse and AMHR 3.2 classes per horse.No club can keep hosting shows and losing money.At that time AMHA entries were mostly professional trainers with big rigs and high dollar horses.AMHR was more family involved with 1 or 2 horses being shown by adults and kids in youth, amateur, showmanship and performance.For many years we have hosted very successful AMHR shows with nice ribbons and trophies and great hospitality.As far as AMHA absentee voting issues I questioned the possibility 1 year when I was fortunate enough to attend the AMHA national meeting I was told "If anyone really cares enough about AMHA they would be here at the meeting" I was quite upset since I know many people who care but couldn't afford the price of the trip or time off from a job they really need to keep.I know not all AMHA members act that way, but when members act in an eletist manner and somewhat snobby, many people are turned off and want nothing to do with an organization..I am sure in some areas of the country the situation is probably reversed. Having been show chairman I know very well how difficult it is to find a suitable location to hold such a large show.Most of the facilities are booked for many yers in advance and don't want to deal with a 1 year contract.The only possible hope of facility rotation around the country would be to find 1 or 2 other horse breeds that are having the same problem as us and get together for more bargaining power so locations could be rotated every third year.Years ago Arabian nationals rotated between Louisville,KY and New Mexico I think.Not sure what they do now.


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## mdegner (Oct 6, 2012)

I am fortunate to be a member of one of the two clubs(MN, SD) up in the northern plains area that host an AMHA show the day after their AMHR show. I was on the show committee for a number of years too and as anyone knows, its tough to break even on a show. One of the difficulties we have during planning is to find "local" judges and show managers (within 7 states) that do both AMHR and AMHA. Using the same judges helps keep the cost down and we don't like using the same judges over and over.

I am surprised about the promotions stuff because AMHA has a marketing packet clubs can use to promote. The MMHC AMHA show made the Winona, MN paper this past summer (my hubby and yearling mare...LOL).

I so wish there were more shows in this area too. Centrals is the next closest one and that about 12 hours away.....wish one of the Iowa clubs could start an AMHA show.......(hint, hint Melinda...).


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 6, 2012)

Not sure I should put my 2 cents in here since I do not breed and rarely show. But I am a dues paying member of both registries. 

Our state clubs work very hard! I know they must feel as though they are butting into a brick wall sometimes, trying to motivate members. I think all clubs, no matter what interest, are feeling member lethary now. People would rather stay home and play video games in the comfort of their homes, and live their lives via technology than get involved with actual physical activities.

There are lots of us out here doing fun and useful things with our horses besides showing. Would I show more often if shows were closer than 2-4+ hours away? Taking a risk of exposing my horses to infectious disease, the cost of travel, time away from home--everything has to be considered.


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Oct 6, 2012)

mdegner said:


> I am fortunate to be a member of one of the two clubs(MN, SD) up in the northern plains area that host an AMHA show the day after their AMHR show. I was on the show committee for a number of years too and as anyone knows, its tough to break even on a show. One of the difficulties we have during planning is to find "local" judges and show managers (within 7 states) that do both AMHR and AMHA. Using the same judges helps keep the cost down and we don't like using the same judges over and over.
> 
> I am surprised about the promotions stuff because AMHA has a marketing packet clubs can use to promote. The MMHC AMHA show made the Winona, MN paper this past summer (my hubby and yearling mare...LOL).
> 
> I so wish there were more shows in this area too. Centrals is the next closest one and that about 12 hours away.....wish one of the Iowa clubs could start an AMHA show.......(hint, hint Melinda...).


I have mentioned it to the Iowa based club that I am a member of and didnt get a lot of interest but hopefully can find someone to at least help put one on!


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 6, 2012)

I feel it's way too hard and WAY too expensive for the "average Joe" to play at AMHA shows. This year, I wanted to show at Worlds, in AOTE Jr Gelding, Amateur Jr Gelding and 2YO gelding. I figured if I move back to PA I'd never get the chance, so I went for it. To qualify him for the shows you have to show under 6 judges at 2 shows, I believe. None of the shows we went to had the AOTE gelding class. I made it to two shows, but only 5 judges. So, since I wanted to show at Worlds, I HAD to go to Centrals. I showed in the classes I wanted and qualified.

So, we entered Worlds. CHA-CHING. To show in THREE classes cost me over $250. Stalls ALONE were over $100. Fortunately I live about 25 miles away so I didn't need a hotel or a farm sitter.

So, my take? Make it easier to qualify and lower the entry fees. The plaques are nice, but I'd rather pay less and just get a rosette. I did notice the Champ and Reserve trophies are different this year, neither had the bands that run along the top. The Grand Champions still had the bands.

Will I enter Worlds again? Doubtful. Even if I'm still down here, probably not. Just too expensive.


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## MajorClementine (Oct 7, 2012)

Even though neither one of my horses are AMHA I would be happy to join if they had open classes that I could show my minis in. Even if it was a "just for fun" kind of thing. I'd like the experience and to learn about showing without having to get another horse. I'd be happy to pay a small fee to enter. I am more interested in learning and doing things with my two horses than winning. I think it would promote them and get more people interested in AMHA and miniature horses in general. JMO... don't know if it's even doable...


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## targetsmom (Oct 7, 2012)

The New England Miniature Horse Society has always offered Novice classes for newbies and last year added lots of 4-H classes, which were the largest classes in the show. Minis have to be 34" or under for Novice Class, but can be up to 38" for 4-H. The 4-Her must show proof of 4-H membership but NOT registration papers on the mini. More info (for 2012) at http://www.nemhs.org. Entry fess are less in these classes too.

That said, I do wish that AMHA offered (or paid more attention) to lifetime awards such as the AMHR Hall of Fame (HOF) and the Pinto Association lifetime award structure. I know AMHA does offer ROMs but I don't see them as anywhere near as popular as the other registry awards. Once you get going on these lifetime achievements, it is very hard to stop competing - trust me, I know - until you reach your goal. Lots more entry fees for the registry. I guess it helps if there are several fairly equal competitors going for the same award, as we just had in New England Pinto. More fun too!


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## tagalong (Oct 7, 2012)

> the ammy classes are really not ammy classes, as I've seen trainers hand the horse off to the ammy, so they are pro trained.


???

That happens in AMHR as well - all the time - the amateur just handles/shows the horse - they do not have to train it. So yes, it is still an ammy class. That is not an AMHA thing.

AMHA was first to have AOTE classes. They had a huge youth section at Worlds before AMHR did. The first to have photos on registration papers. The old AMHR papers with that tiny, badly drawn outline for you to draw markings on were a joke - the worst I have seen in more than 25 years of dealing with assorted breed registries. The were first to go the DNA/PQ route - and yes, that is important. AMHR will be following suit - and it is about time.

One thing I have noticed over the years - at least on this forum - is that many things AMHA does get sneered at, while if AMHR does the same thing it is okay. I am not sure why that is - but it has happened time and time again. I have also seen families happily participating in AMHA shows over the years - and the Youth classes were big - but from reading here you would think that was never the case.

For instance, people complain that AMHA Worlds stays in Texas and say it should move around like it used to - but AMHR Nationals is staying in Tulsa and it does not move around and you rarely read anyone complaining about that.

I also have seen people crowing about how there are more entries at Nationals as compared to Worlds - well, of course there will be. AMHR shows appeal to two different sizes/categories - so double the possibilities - it is just common sense that even if both shows had low attendance, Nationals would always have more entries.

The pendulum has just swung more to the bigger horses/ponies for now.

I actually LIKE horses having to qualify to get to Worlds - I almost wish the "qualifications" were tighter for Nationals. Sometimes you see horses in a class that just should not be there (that happened a lot more in the past) - that is fine if the owner is having fun and enjoying their horses ... but all too often you then hear complaints about how only the BNTs (big name trainers) win and how everything is political. Well, maybe - just maybe - the horse on the end of the BNT's line was of better quality than yours... it happens.

As far as rude BODs etc. go - you can always vote them out of a job. Basing an entire registry on a couple of conversations here and there is not fair to the others who work hard to promote it and the horses.

Anyway - there is my two cents. Both registries have their place and both registries can succeed... and even though the focus here has shifted to the ponies, I still enjoy keeping up with the AMHA shows.


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 7, 2012)

Some good points made about important advances instituted by AMHA over time...actual photos on reg. papers, DNA testing, etc...it is about time and then some that AMHR followed suit, for the veracity of pedigrees and regis. papers!

That said-I do see a tendency toward something of a 'superiority complex' among some in the AMHA. There seems a bit of a 'circle' who consider themselves the 'elite' owners/breeders, who have considerable financial resources, sell often to each other, resist any change that wasn't 'their idea'.I also think that AMHA is much more 'being steered by' trainers and high-end owners...some of whom seem to feel very 'entitled'...to the detriment of the entire organization, at the bottom line.

Perhaps worst of all, in some measure, BOTH registries seem to have an attitude of non-cooperation with/non-recognition of the other. THIS needs to stop, IMO; it hurts BOTH registries and all members of both.

JMHO.

Margo--AMHA Lifetime Member for more than 15 years; member since 1984...and AMHR member for a number of years, though no longer(no longer show in either, and don't plan to, but have learned never to say 'never'!)


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 7, 2012)

I agree and think AMHA does have it right when it comes to DNA, pictures, etc... It feels more elite which isn't a bad thing but you still need to be member friendly. AMHR needs to come out of the times there is no doubt about that and hopefully it will happen sooner rather then later. Also AMHR is the first to have the Western class and now AMHA has the same thing only called differently, AMHA now has the versatility class which AMHR had first. I like how AMHA handles their grand championship class when it comes to driving and how I wish AMHR would do the same instead of the Stakes class where you can enter only one class and your eligible to enter in the Stakes class even if you placed or not. There are many good points when it comes to the AMHA and the same can be said about AMHR. It's just how the people view it differently.

Now of course we can't compare actual numbers between the National show and the World Show because of the B division that would be redicilious. But I still think the numbers are half at the World show compared to the number Nationals gets in the A division. I think its because of harder qualification which isn't a bad thing but it can be when so few local shows around the area. Also more expensive more so doing office work. That's why I had to choose one or the other because its too expensive to do both these days. AMHR offers more to me, as some one mentioned I love it when my horse's get their Hall of Fame and not sure what AMHA offers when it comes to lifetime achievement. Also AMHR has the roman chariot which I really enjoy.


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## Minimor (Oct 7, 2012)

Overall numbers are larger at R Nationals due to the fact that they have A and B divisions--but when you look at the individual divisions...all things being equal the AMHA classes should be expected to be comparable to AMHR Under division classes--if you are comparing those two things only, that has nothing at all to do with the AMHR Over division horses. From what I have heard the AMHR Under division classes have much larger entries?


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## tagalong (Oct 7, 2012)

By the way - not all the classes at Worlds had low entries... I saw many that were of a respectable size.


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## Charlotte (Oct 7, 2012)

Everyone keeps talking about no AMHA shows in their area....There are programs in place to fix that...it just takes a FEW people interested enough to do it!

AMHA offers two show formats for cheap to put on and easy to put on shows....Community Shows (one day/afternoon, one judge) and Youth Performance Shows (half day youth performance show) This is an easy way to get your feet wet at horse showing, earn AMHA points for a variety of honors and you would be very unlikely to have to compete against a big time trainer. Contact AMHA for information regarding how to put one on. You don't need an indoor arena...just someone's small pasture will do. you don't have to clip in the wintertime. all you have to do is go and have fun!

The Oklahoma Miniature Horse Club is having one this November. Just a few people are working on it....It doesn't take an army.


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Oct 7, 2012)

Charlotte said:


> Everyone keeps talking about no AMHA shows in their area....There are programs in place to fix that...it just takes a FEW people interested enough to do it!
> 
> AMHA offers two show formats for cheap to put on and easy to put on shows....Community Shows (one day/afternoon, one judge) and Youth Performance Shows (half day youth performance show) This is an easy way to get your feet wet at horse showing, earn AMHA points for a variety of honors and you would be very unlikely to have to compete against a big time trainer. Contact AMHA for information regarding how to put one on. You don't need an indoor arena...just someone's small pasture will do. you don't have to clip in the wintertime. all you have to do is go and have fun!
> 
> The Oklahoma Miniature Horse Club is having one this November. Just a few people are working on it....It doesn't take an army.


Where can I look to get more information on these types of shows?


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## Riverrose28 (Oct 7, 2012)

It's alittle off topic, but Tag I do agree with you on AMHR trainers handing off their horses to ammy's as well. I do also agree that AMHR should take a page from AMHA and National contenders whould have to qualify, such as at least showing in a class in a local show to show in it at Nationals. I've been to Nationals and seen people enter their horses in classes that they have never done before and it usually doesn't end well, case in point is liberty class where the horse is confused and it takes 10 people to catch it. Or breeding classes such as produce of dam. but now back to AMHA and how they can improve, I think the one day show idea is great, but it would be expensive and would take a club to sponsor it, and maybe offer beginner classes for the newbies as we really need them to stay interested, and not get discouraged.


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## RockRiverTiff (Oct 7, 2012)

I've been saying the same thing about the lack of AMHA shows in our area for years, and I do hope that the new Community Shows program will help to revive them, but at this point I worry it's too little too late. The small AMHR shows are so well-established it's going to be hard to convince the clubs and fairs to invest in another, separate show, especially when many of those clubs and fairs already tried AMHA shows and found them to be less profitable. Many, many county fairs in our region include AMHR shows. They're low-cost, laidback and family friendly and also give the non-horsey members of a family something else to do during the show. From a registry promotion standpoint, these shows come with a ready-made audience that fits our most common demographic of new members, whereas standalone shows often struggle to attract outside audiences. If AMHA wants to amp up their show attendance, then I say they find out which county and state fairs that don't already have an AMHR show are in areas with a good concentration of AMHA members and send them information on the new Community Shows.

Also, since the youth are so important, maybe AMHA could work with 4H and other horse/pony clubs to start a program that would allow youth to earn points and gain recognition for participation in 4H and open shows. Times are tough, which is no doubt hurting show participation for all the horse registries, but this would make the kids that are showing on a budget feel appreciated and give them further incentive to some day show at the higher level while also increasing AMHA's exposure in the greater horse/livestock industry.


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## sfmini (Oct 7, 2012)

Thank you Tagalong, for your very accurate response.

When I was a director, I busted anybody who made comments about people needing to attend if they cared. By the time I was done with them, they were educated on why a lot of people don't attend meetings. You have to believe, though, that the "biggies" aren't there either, and very few of them get involved with anything if they do attend. Most of the attendees are locals and a few regulars who aren't big breeders, and very few big breeders.

Not going to even talk about the voting topic, I have tried to explain that for years and just got attacked and flamed. BTW, AMHR doesn't allow remote voting either.

World qualifications, that is a touchy subject, if they are too loose, local shows will be hurt. Too tight and you can have the same problem with the world show taking a hit as well.

Info on the new types of shows are in the rule book.

As for no shows in your area, those of you who are impacted should contact the World and Local Show Committees via the AMHA office and make a new proposal to help you qualify, maybe expand the hardship rule to allow people who are not within xxx number of miles of any AMHA shows be able to qualify in some alternative fashion, maybe just based on distance alone or so many wins at x number of open horse shows (be sure to include how you would prove those wins).

While rotating locations would be nice, it isn't feasible as was mentioned in an earlier post, facilities won't go for an every other year contract. The Arabs stopped rotating shows many years ago for that reason. The world show committee has searched for another, less expensive and acceptable facility with available time with no luck. We span two weekends, that makes for a problem in finding a new location. We need to keep on top of our contract with the Will Rogers facility as the contract for AQHA with the Ohio State Fairgrounds ends in 2015 and they are making noises about moving the show to Will Rogers or Tulsa if the fairgrounds doesn't add more stabling and another arena, and that show is over three weeks long. For them to move, the facility would have to make a big chunk of time available around the same time as our World show......

Some new classes have snuck into the rule book with no fanfare, one being reinsmanship, would love to see that class offered at shows.

JMHO, I think they need to look at the classes with low entries and have the option to combine or eliminate them until such time that entries grow enough. I also tried to get them to consider eliminating the top ten plaques and people really got upset at that thought, but it would save a lot of money which could be reflected in the entry fees.

Tiff, you have some great ideas, but I think that we should step up to the plate and do the research in our own states and send the contact info for those counties and states that don't currently have mini shows at their county fairs. Ohio has 88 counties and I know that kind of research for every state just isn't feasible for the AMHA office.

Since I am off work on disability, I will tackle Ohio. How about it LB members? Anybody else willing to step up and do the same for your state?


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## RockRiverTiff (Oct 8, 2012)

I would be willing to do the research in Illinois.


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## ruffian (Oct 8, 2012)

Hey let's move AQHA Congress to Texas, and Worlds to Ohio!! Sounds good to me!


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## Flying minis (Oct 8, 2012)

Take advantage of the dissent in AMHR right now - there are MANY people in AMHR who are unhappy - at Nationals it was obvious, everything from the Shetland influence and prevalence ot the measuring (there were some BIG horses in both divisions). If AMHA could take advantage of that, they could gain many members. All the things you are talking about are ways to take advantage - lower fees, more shows, etc., but probably the biggest is for AMHA to ACTIVELY WELCOME new members. Whether justified or not, when talking to people about why they stay R and not A, the attitude of the members is the biggest reason. I've been told AMHA is more "snooty", "snobbish", "arrogant", and a number of other terms, by not just one or two but dozens of people. Whether this attitude is real or just a perception, it has to change in order to really grow the organization.

I'm in an area where I could easily attend multiple (at least 3) AMHA shows a year, but don't. I have both overs and unders, and half my horses couldn't show A. For me, I can really only show one registry, so it is the one that all my horses can show at. However, a lot of R breeders are concentrating on unders, as with the Shetland influence in R's, many breeders who don't want to "go Shetland" feel they can only be competitive in the unders. THOSE are the people AMHA needs to target!


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 8, 2012)

Flying minis said:


> Take advantage of the dissent in AMHR right now - there are MANY people in AMHR who are unhappy - at Nationals it was obvious, everything from the Shetland influence and prevalence ot the measuring (there were some BIG horses in both divisions). If AMHA could take advantage of that, they could gain many members. All the things you are talking about are ways to take advantage - lower fees, more shows, etc., but probably the biggest is for AMHA to ACTIVELY WELCOME new members. Whether justified or not, when talking to people about why they stay R and not A, the attitude of the members is the biggest reason. I've been told AMHA is more "snooty", "snobbish", "arrogant", and a number of other terms, by not just one or two but dozens of people. Whether this attitude is real or just a perception, it has to change in order to really grow the organization.
> 
> I'm in an area where I could easily attend multiple (at least 3) AMHA shows a year, but don't. I have both overs and unders, and half my horses couldn't show A. For me, I can really only show one registry, so it is the one that all my horses can show at. However, a lot of R breeders are concentrating on unders, as with the Shetland influence in R's, many breeders who don't want to "go Shetland" feel they can only be competitive in the unders. THOSE are the people AMHA needs to target!


I totally agree with you, and feel the same way. However I feel that unless they do something next year like I mentioned before cutting the hardship fees down in half for the last year it may be too late considering that AMHA will be closing its doors to hardshipping next year. I feel like this is AMHA's last chance to bring in new members, and then just be able to keep the ones they have once it closes.

I wish that the Reinsmanship class would have made it and I know someone is trying to get the chariot class that AMHR has be brought up for AMHA but if we are looking to cut classes then that probably won't happen. I think that's just it AMHA needs to have some fun classes to keep members interested, like the youth liberty they have at the start of the World show. The Chariot classes for me is a big relief giver when showing at the National show, it's a blast and I looked forward to it this past year and already looking forward to it next year. Also I like the awards the World show gives out, yeah the awards at Nationals are nice but can be better. I like the plaques for top 10 and not sure if that will bring in more members if you take those away even with the lower entry fees.


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## LaVern (Oct 8, 2012)

I agree --- I have gone with AMHR all these years because I love that 35-36 inch B horse. And there are a lot of nice Shetland of that size. But I don't want to raise the big honkers or show them or put a bunch of tall stuff into my program. 38- 40 inches just doesn't look miniature to me.

Now if you are a good handler you can get them measured in. And if you are a hot shot salesman and are selling to Australia or someplace that, sure you will get the high end buyers, they don't give a hoot, but for me to try to tell Joe Blow down the road that the horse is 38 inches when it is not, won't work. The average Joe Blow is no dummy. And I don't want to sell to people and have to have them fret over size.

If there ever was a time for AMHA, because of their honest strict measurement policies and DNA ing, to come back it is now.

If they would ever consider, after this close up thing, to allow, say maybe up to 36 inch, horse to stay in and create a separate category for them, like ASPC did with AMHR a lot of us would be gone. Perhaps only mares and geldings. Call it AMHAO Then they could own us. I guess I would rather be owned by a Miniature Horse outfit than another Breed.

I have always been crazy about Nationals, but this year the atmosphere was different, or at least it seemed that way to me.


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## sdmini (Oct 8, 2012)

It's not that hard to qualify for World, taken right off the website.

_*World Show Hardship Qualifying under Reasonable Attempt *_

_1. The horse/exhibitor must exhibit in a minimum of two (2) AMHA Approved local shows under a minimum of six (6) judges. An AMHA Championship Show qualifies for one (1) local show or three (3) judges. _


_Qualifying for the AMHA World Show is considered on a class by class basis. The horse/exhibitor must exhibit in exactly the same class in a minimum of two (2) AMHA Approved local shows under a minimum of six (6) judges to exhibit in the same class during the AMHA World Show. _


_2. If a horse/exhibitor wishes to exhibit in a class during the World Show which was not offered during World Show Qualifying period, the following must be forwarded to the AMHA office: _


_Owners/exhibitors must provide a copy of the class list from the two (2) local shows referenced in #2. Show Location and Show Date must be provided. _



_Indicate the class you wish to show in, but was not offered. _


You could also go to one local show, show in one class and be eligible to attend a regional show and place top ten and be automatically qualified for World.

I hear it all the time to "AMHA is snobby" but you need to ask them when the last time they were at World. I know if I judged B stallions by the one a friend took to Nationals ten years ago I wouldn't have a good opinion of their quality...then again it took 8th and there were only 8 in the class. AMHR class sizes have not always been that large.

Classes at Worlds use to be quite large. There are more reasons I'm sure but I see World lacking the support of the "average joe" farms. Pretty ironic as World has made accommodations for the smaller, amateur breeder where Nationals has not. World has the AOTE program, two levels of Amateur, height and age breakdown of Ammy horses and a AOTE and Amateur Futurity. Nationals have one Ammy level with two break downs Sr/Jr. I'm not knocking AMHR for it; don't know where they would find more time for that many classes, just making a point.

Both AMHA and AMHR have good and bad points find which one works for you and run with it.


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## tagalong (Oct 8, 2012)

> There are more reasons I'm sure but I see World lacking the support of the "average joe" farms. Pretty ironic as World has made accommodations for the smaller, amateur breeder where Nationals has not. World has the AOTE program, two levels of Amateur, height and age breakdown of Ammy horses and a AOTE and Amateur Futurity. Nationals have one Ammy level with two break downs Sr/Jr. I'm not knocking AMHR for it; don't know where they would find more time for that many classes, just making a point.


Very well said... so much for the alleged "snooty" atmosphere with that many options for Ammys. AMHA does not seem to be geared just towards the BNTs, as many insist. The same - and more - BNTs are at the R shows as well.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 8, 2012)

Flying minis said:


> Take advantage of the dissent in AMHR right now - there are MANY people in AMHR who are unhappy - at Nationals it was obvious, everything from the Shetland influence....


Um, they won't be happy in AMHA then, either. The horse who won Supreme Champion at Worlds this year is, ahem, a Shetland.


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## LaVern (Oct 8, 2012)

But, he looked to me like he was within the height limits. Very pretty. I don't think that we can't tell people what type to show if they are reg. and are the right height, with either association.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 8, 2012)

LaVern said:


> But, he looked to me like he was within the height limits. Very pretty. I don't think that we can't tell people what type to show if they are reg. and are the right height, with either association.


No fear, he is very much within height. I "knew" him when he was with a former owner. He was then, and is, a spectacular animal!! I only wish I could have afforded him!!!


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## Charlotte (Oct 8, 2012)

I think Marlee knows her stuff.

I keep seeing prople talking about how much larger the classes are at Nationals vs World so I did a little research. AMATEUR HALTER CLASSES ONLY

NATIONALS..under 34" Amateur Halter classes: 6

World...Amateur Halter classes: 28 (if the Amateur Halter Futurity classes are counted you would have 38 Amateur Halter classes) [R does not offer an Amateur Futurity]

So if you cut the AMHA Amateur classes down to 6 they would be crammed too. The bottom line is...the beginner and the owner who wants to 'do it yourself' has a way better chance of coming home with some beautiful hardware. AMHA is a strong supporter of the beginner and the amateur and always trying to come up with new programs suited to them such as the Community Shows. (Youth also with the Youth Performance shows)

Oh, can someone tell me? Do all horses at Nationals still have to be measured in order to exhibit?


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## Minimor (Oct 8, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Very well said... so much for the alleged "snooty" atmosphere with that many options for Ammys. AMHA does not seem to be geared just towards the BNTs, as many insist. The same - and more - BNTs are at the R shows as well.


I have to ask...who has ever said that 'snooty' has anything to do with how many many classes a show does or does not have? What does it have to do with the presence--or non-presence--of big name trainers?

I encountered some snooty AMHA people very soon after I got my first minis--they weren't trainers, they weren't professionals of any sort, they were just staunch AMHA members who took the attitude that if you don't have AMHA then you don't have anything worth having...AMHA is the only true miniature registry...things along that same line...that is the kind of thing I call snooty, and I'm quite sure that is what a good many others mean when they say snooty.


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## ruffian (Oct 8, 2012)

Charlotte - absolutely every horse has to be measured to show at Nationals. And every year there are horses that are DQ'd due to height.

There's some interesting stuff here -


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## tagalong (Oct 8, 2012)

> I have to ask...who has ever said that 'snooty' has anything to do with how many many classes a show does or does not have? What does it have to do with the presence--or non-presence--of big name trainers?


Minimor - it is a oft-repeated complaint about AMHA in general - that it is snooty or snobbish or words to that effect. That statement is usually followed with the reason being that it caters only to the BNTs.

How does it relate? I think those who say that mean to say that that alleged attitude keeps people away.


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## DJF Miniature Show Horses (Oct 8, 2012)

Wow! I'm learning alot here from all of you. I have been a member of AMHA since 2005. I'm an average "Jill" that trains and shows her own minis. I have never shown A or R only Pinto and open locally.

I cannot afford A shows because of the multi judge fees. If AMHA went back to one judge I could swing that. We have no shows in my area either. Closest is 4 hours away. Still hard with gas and lodging.

I know some people showing amateur and AOTE. Riverrose28 summed it up perfectly! There horses are all professionaly trained. Yet they are showing AOTE. That really burns me..aarrgghhh.... I am a TRUE definition of an AOTE exhibitor and I feel defeated already.

I went to a driving clinic wiith a LOC BOD popular trainer thinking maybe I could learn something new?? What I learned is if you don't have money or high end horses then don't bother showing in AMHA.

This man went as far as to tell us all that if our horses werent in his barn already they would be! I watched his way of training over the weekend and he is cruel and impatient. No way one of my sweet minis will ever see his barn!

In the open shows Judges have told me I drive like a pro. This has given me confidence. I have won many championships, hi points, and a buckle against all breeds of minis and ponies. Reinsmanship is my favorite. These AMHA drivers tell me I need a different mini. Mine is too average.

That remark has me thinking "Do I wish to continue supporting this club?" My thoughts "no".

I will have a better idea this time next year. I plan on going to 2 mini A shows in 2013. I may rejoin AMHR too.

Thank you all for confirming what I had suspected in AOTE and for your other opinions. Was informative....


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## Charlotte (Oct 8, 2012)

Thank you Ruffian. I needed it verified that all horses still must be measured to show at Nationals before I comment any more.

We hear SO much discussion of which show is bigger, better etc etc etc. (I REALLY hate that because each registry has it's purpose and loyal membership and that is as it should be!) So below is an attempt to do some apples to apples comparison, which I have never seen before.

So talking about American Miniature Horses 34" and under........

In a private conversation with a person who knows, the number of horses MEASURED at Nationals was 1,200 (I am assuming that would be give or take a few) Now, because there are no facts published on this next part, we have to go by informed estimates.... that 60% or more were Over Division horses. If 60% were over division that leaves us with 480 (give or take a few) Under Division horses.

AMHA had 700 (give or take a few) horses entered in the World Show so good numbers of 34" and under horses for both.

+++ Oh, DJF....If you KNOW, or you know someone who knows of a person showing AOTE who is breaking the rules and there is PROOF of such PLEASE report it! It hurts everyone for someone cheating to be allowed to get away with it. But some proof must come forward. AMHA *WILL* discipline rule breakers.


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## sfmini (Oct 8, 2012)

It is time to accept that attitudes have changed and those "snooty" people who thought very little of AMHR have reversed their position and very few will look down their noses at the "R" horses and most now own and show AMHR horses.

Way back when we started showing (mid 80's) there was a huge difference between the two registries horse types. The Arab look was winning in A and the pony look was winning in R. I am guessing a lot had to do with the pony people being in control of R and the pony people were judging the shows. Early A people had an elitist attitude, the horses were priced out of a lot of our reach.

Both groups have evolved, and you should try to try them out again.

Be conscious of your timing as well and remember that nerves can be stretched thin before our classes and might not be as receptive to strangers. And, some people can be snobs, but very, very few are now.


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## DJF Miniature Show Horses (Oct 8, 2012)

Where I live and show Ruffian these people are in deep with the bigger trainers and farms and look down on me and insult me every chance they get! They have told me to not waste my time at A shows if Im not willing or able to buy a high end mini or get a trainer. I even beat these snobs in open driving but they won't leave me alone.

I hate showing with them :-(

I love my horses and am trying to have fun.

My horses are Bond, FWF and Komoko. They have several world champion drivers old and new in there pedigrees. My new colt is going to be an in the middle driver. Cute but not high end. They told me he was not typey enough. I hope he kicks there butts in open. AMHA probibly not...

One of the AOTE people works for A. The other 2 buy pro trained horses and have trainers. When I said they didnt train there own horses they told me "everyone does it". Well I wont!!!

Why with this attitude A may lose another member cause there is no classes for average show people like me who know and follow the rules...


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## wildoak (Oct 8, 2012)

Good post Jody...

We have bounced back and forth over the years, showing A and R. Doing more R these days, as I have a few over horses to show and it's just hard to do it all, but I would never rule out showing A as we always enjoyed it too. Just having a lot of fun with R these days!

Jan


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## Minimor (Oct 8, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Minimor - it is a oft-repeated complaint about AMHA in general - that it is snooty or snobbish or words to that effect. That statement is usually followed with the reason being that it caters only to the BNTs.
> 
> How does it relate? I think those who say that mean to say that that alleged attitude keeps people away.


Oh I know it keeps people away--it certainly worked for me 10 years ago and I have since lost all interest in the organization--and I know many people say it, but I've never heard anyone link snooty with lack of Ammy classes or too many BNTs--the only context I have heard it used in is in reference to the superior attitudes of a number of members/breeders/exhibitors. I myself have used the word snooty to describe certain AMHA people and my use of the word has nothing at all to do with Ammy or open classes or trainers...I don't show Ammy and could care less if a show offers Ammy classes or not.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 8, 2012)

I wish AMHR had at AOTE program I really do, showing in amateur it's tough, not just at Nationals but local as well. It seems almost easier to show in Open at Nationals. However when you have 381 classes and showing for almost 2 weeks it would be very hard to add in those extra classes. AMHR isn't scratching classes tho they added 7 to the schedule this year, adding 4 driving classes to the futurity which was greatly needed, and the new draft halter classes which I so hope will continue to have next year. It would be awesome if they can revamp the Amateur program for AMHR.

Also I'm sorry but I cannot see that there were more over horses then there were unders. I do think the over horses are growing but the unders have always had more entries and perhaps one day there might be more overs but not sure when that day will happen. I think the under horses will remain popular mostly with families considering how many of the over horses are now shetlands. Also according to the AMHR's site there were 1510 horses at Nationals, and what we heard from Mr. Davenport that their were around 1500. I do know of one farm that did not show and they had over I think 5 horses that were signed up. That number may change at Convention but I will say that the barns were full, their did not seem to be less amount of horses shown, classes were full with tough competition.


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## Viki (Oct 8, 2012)

I'm sorry, I have to laugh every time someone says AMHA is going under. Wont make it another year, etc. I started on my adventure into Miniature Horses in 1992. EVERY year I hear how AMHA is on it's way out. Sure is taking a long time to go under, dont you think? LOL


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## Minimor (Oct 8, 2012)

The AMHR show results page shows 1510 entries. Since horses do not show in more than one division, hence each horse would be issued one number (unlike Congress where a pony might show as a Modern and as a Show Pony so would get 2 numbers and might be counted twice)--that means that 1510 must be an accurate horse count--unless as Jamie said a few horses did not show after being counted in that 1510. I doubt AMHR would lie about entry numbers, so I expect that number is correct--I would take it over the word of "someone who knows"...



> Both groups have evolved, and you should try to try them out again.Be conscious of your timing as well and remember that nerves can be stretched thin before our classes and might not be as receptive to strangers. And, some people can be snobs, but very, very few are now.


 Unfortunately for the registry, there are those of us who were put off years ago and who have since gone a different direction and have no interest at all in trying out the registry again. There is nothing for us there now.
People use show nerves and "busy" as an excuse for being unfriendly; that is lame. No matter how busy or stressed one may be, it's not that difficult to flash someone a smile and say HI, or--if the person persists in talking/asking questions--it is easy and polite to say I'm sorry, I'm very busy at the moment, could you come back in an hour or so and I should have time to answer your questions.....been there done that! But--in all honesty that is not an AMHA issue, one can encounter that sort of unfriendliness/rudeness at any show, in any breed or registry.


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## sdmini (Oct 9, 2012)

I show AMHA and AMHR, I have shown at Nationals and World and very much am the "little" guy. I showed at Nationals only this year, started with some B's on the string and only had enough money to do one so went R this year. I fit well, not trainer well, but hold my own locally with trainers in open classes. That said Nationally Ammy classes are a bear, the amount of trainer horses has likely more than doubled. It use to be the association with the most trainers was AMHA but as the pendulum swung from small to tall more and more crossed over to now I would say 90-95% of the top trainers do both. You would be surprised at how many Top Ten, Top Five and yes even National Champions get the gate in Ammy every year at Nationals.

Out of curiosity I counted 40 some trainer horses that took the top ten spots in the six Amateur classes at Nationals. I didn't even count the very, very good amateurs such as Erica, I only counted ones I knew were with trainers. It's not an exact count as I knew some were with trainers even though they were not listed, some I'm sure I missed. At a local level I don't know how much it matters, pick AMHA//AMHR what ever is easiest.

The AOTE is not perfect, it's flawed in the fact that it count's largely on people to behave in an honest, forthright nature and that doesn't always happen and that is not an association thing, it's a decent human being thing. While not perfect it does offer an alternative. Local shows likely will not break down level 1 and level 2 but they are there at a World level.

I had to go and look at the show number break down, I'm not going to count each horse but did count several classes under numbers and over numbers. Amateur classes had 182 unders and 169 overs, Futurity had 104 unders and a staggering 218 overs, Open had 416 unders and 344 overs. Halter counts for almost 60% of all entries so I didn't do any performance figures, they are there if you want to look. I did not count model, color, owned/bred/shown or any of those classes either. Safe to say it fairly close to a 50/50 break-down.

I love both AMHA and AMHR, but asking this forum "how to fix" AMHA is a lot like asking the Democrats how to fix the Republicans or vice versa.


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## shelia (Oct 9, 2012)

I think both AMHA and AMHR should have another class. At least AMHA should have it. They could call it early Amature (or something like that). It should be a class that is for a persons first 5 or 10 shows. it should be kind of a schooling class with lots of welcoming to new people.

Going out in the ring is very intimidating. It will give people a chance to see if they will like it. We could even present a graduation plaque or something at the end of each persons time. it would certainly relieve some pressure and they wouldn't have to compete with people who have been doing it for a while.

New people are afraid and can get discouraged very quickly. The classes for this should be about half price.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 9, 2012)

Any AMHR show can offer non rated classes... I have seen "novice" classes offered. This would be where getting involved with local clubs is so important...


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## sfmini (Oct 9, 2012)

DJF Miniature Show Horses said:


> One of the AOTE people works for A.


None of the AOTE or any other members works for AMHA as employees of AMHA are not allowed to own AMHA registered horses. If you know of one who does, file a protest.

It would be impossible to enforce any rule stating an AOTE horse could never have been with a trainer. Also, a horse away from a trainer loses condition and sharpness quickly, so with the exception of people who are able to show in January and February, they don't really have too much of an advantage in the show ring. That professional groom job is history within a week or two. Those of us who live in colder climates don't have any special advantage from having our horses in training until December 31.

Look, we tried to make it as fair as we can, and it is what it is.


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## targetsmom (Oct 9, 2012)

All the AMHA shows I have done in New England have non-rated classes for newbies - either Novice Adult and Novice Youth - with some nice awards for High Point or Supreme Halter horse - or Mentored Beginner classes where an experienced person goes into the ring with you to give you pointers, but cannot touch the horse. For example, they can tell you if the horse is set up best or is too stretched, when the judge is coming, and just offer moral support. Sounds like just what Shelia would like. And as said earlier on this thread, one Club has added 4-H classes and these are very popular.


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## Margot (Oct 9, 2012)

I started showing about fifteen years ago. I went to one show to watch than took a horse to the next one. Most people were very helpful in helping with tips and how to show, clip and groom. At that time NY State had a series of shows that were R one day and A the next so I showed in both. I think the AOTE classes do offer new people a better chance to compete. Ammie classes in both A and R are full of people who are legally amateurs according to the rules but many are as good or better than trainers as they have been showing for years but few of them show in AOTE. I have showed dogs and cattle and it is the same problems or worse. try as they might the registries will never be able to offer a really level playing field. Maybe because I already had experience showing other animals I just did not expect too much but still had a lot of fun showing and even won sometimes against the big boys. We did all our own training, conditioning and showing, now because of various family problems I have sent some horses to trainers and just show them, it is still fun for me. If I did not do this I would not be able to show at all. Both registries have their problems, I still would rather show A because of AOTE but there are no A shows as close to me as R shows and I can't go very far from home. Just go enjoy and don't expect to win LOL.


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## shelia (Oct 10, 2012)

This sounds great! I wish our area would offer something like this! We do have some schooling shows, but they are not on the same week end as the shows.

New people are our future.



targetsmom said:


> All the AMHA shows I have done in New England have non-rated classes for newbies - either Novice Adult and Novice Youth - with some nice awards for High Point or Supreme Halter horse - or Mentored Beginner classes where an experienced person goes into the ring with you to give you pointers, but cannot touch the horse. For example, they can tell you if the horse is set up best or is too stretched, when the judge is coming, and just offer moral support. Sounds like just what Shelia would like. And as said earlier on this thread, one Club has added 4-H classes and these are very popular.


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## targetsmom (Oct 10, 2012)

If you want these classes in your area, talk to the Clubs that run the shows or start a club and set it up yourselves. It is not rocket science, but it is work to find a location, hire judges, find a show manager, etc.


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## wpsellwood (Oct 10, 2012)

We show in both registries, but usually only show at one World or National show, cant afford to do both. The last 7 yrs we have gone to the World show, but last year did send a colt for the sweepstakes. I have another one eligble for this coming year too, and all are eligble for the AMHR futurity. I think the AMHA does an excellent job on the amt program. The reason why we generally chose the world show. If you lump all the classes together like are at the AMHR I think you will find that the classes would be the same size. For instance AMHR as Amt Jr mare, AMHA has Amt jr mare level 1 30 and under level 2 30 and under 30-33 level 1 and 30-33 level 2, AOTE jr mare level one and two. When I show AMHA I can show 3 in amt instead of only one in AMHR I honestly find it funny that new people dont start out in the AMHA as they dont have to show with all the pro-amts (dont know what else to call it) AMHR does a great job of keeping the show costs down, at local level and national level. They have place to show horses in the over division, if you have one that might slip over (if you have a under breeding program) I really dont see the AMHA going anywhere. I personally believe its the economy, and its less to show AMHR and get qualifed in all classes in just 2 shows.


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## Magic Marker Minis (Oct 10, 2012)

We're very new at this... We have AMHA and AMHR horses. For the past couple of years I've heard "you'll have more fun at AMHR" and AMHA is 'hoity-toity.' But, I prefer the 'real' (tongue in cheek) Miniature Horse... as in those that are below 34" - actually prefer them 32" or below as long as conformation is solid so AMHA would be the way to go... But, I'm a 'beer' pocketbook mini owner so I don't have the money to compete in AMHA. Heck, I was going to show some minis at an AMHA show in Scottsdale this month... until I got the premium! Holy crap! Just to bring a horse onto the show grounds was $25! Then, $6 to AMHA, then $6 to the 'office' whatever that is, and then, just one show was either $25, $30 or $35... That's $62 - $72 for one horse in one class! I live in Tucson, so I'd have to drive about 2 hours, spending about another $50 for gas. I couldn't even drive up and then drive back, instead of renting the stall, which would have been another fee (can't remember what the stall fees were as I've already thrown away the premium).

I've also heard that AMHR 'overlooks' the small ones in their shows... so where the heck do I go? Most of our show horses are between 30" and 32". My senior gelding is 33". One of the broodmares is 32.5" and one of my newest show horses is 26.5" at 2-1/2 years. She may mature to 27.5". And, I plan on teaching her to drive as soon as she's old enough/strong enough, but, there again, I've heard a truly small horse won't be able to compete against the bigger driving horses in AMHR, especially those with Hackney breeding.

So, I ask where do I go? Heck, I don't even know where to start! Sometimes I feel like a 'cat looking at a king.'

Kari Masoner

Magic Marker Minis (we're so new our wings are still wet!)

Tucson, AZ


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## targetsmom (Oct 10, 2012)

Maybe it's time to drag out the proposal I sent to Mary Lou and various other places a few years ago. Have the registries do something like Pinto does with their OCAP - Open Competition Activities Program, where they track points on registered pintos that compete in OPEN shows and have a form signed by the secretary. It is up to the competitors to get the classes added to the Open shows, and get the show added to the approved list, and then of course, get the fomm signed and sent in. One of the keys is that only certain classes are allowed, and only a single halter class, which will pretty much rule out big farms and trainers. If AMHA did this and then offered lifetime awards like Pinto does, I bet you would see an increase in the number of people showing, and even more interest in minis as they are seen by "big" horse people at these Open Shows.

See: http://www.pinto.org/ocap.html for more information and scroll down for list of classes for miniatures.

Okay, off my soapbox.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 10, 2012)

AMHR still has the under division where it limits to 34" and under. Sure it is going to be harder to compete in the halter Grand Championship classes if your under say 30" but I've heard the same when it comes to AMHA. It can also be harder to show in driving if you are also under 30" if they aren't divided by height but again it can be the same way with either registry. The only thing you can do is try. If you have a good horse you won't get over looked. Yes AMHR is more inclined towards the shetland influence but you get into that more so in the over division then the under and also once again the Supreme Halter Horse at AMHA Worlds once again this year was a shetland so you can't run away from it. Also halter may not be for everyone so look into performance, do some obstacles, and hunter/jumper, driving it doesn't matter how tall you are. Also I have to say in AMHR they have the roman chariot class and height isn't divided so it's for everyone 38" and under and it had shetlands in that class, the one who was reserve was only 29", sure he wasn't the fastest but he did awesome and judges noticed so no the little ones aren't always over looked.

And targetsmom AMHR does have a program similar to what you are describing and thats the Amateur Companion/Excellence Program.

http://shetlandminiature.com/member-services/forms/item/amateur-companionexcellence-program.html


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## DJF Miniature Show Horses (Oct 10, 2012)

To sfmini. I professionally groom my own horses. Used to be a pro groom for hunters and dressage horses in CA. I am a retired trainer so will never need to send my horses out. I to live in a cold climate and refuse to bodyclip till spring. My horses are well conditioned!

Im not showing fugly pot bellied minis. My current horse looks exactly like his Bond Dynamo grand dad. Is perfectly squared up. No cow hocks no sickle. My horses sire is a western regional champion in the past and top five at AMHA worlds. My horses are very nice...

AOTE is suppose to be" trained by the exhibitor" as stated in the rules. You said just like these 3 offenders said about having a "trainer".

I am not getting a great impression of AMHA at all! The horses winning today look like anorexic shetlands. The prices as stated by magic marker minis is exactly how I feel "the little guy".

The impression Im getting in AMHA is its all about money...

I too have shown dogs in AKC, goats in ADGA, Paints and QHs in CA breed shows, NHSRA, GRA pro barrel racer, Guinea pigs in ARBA and NAMSHA.

I have had great success whatever Im showing in.

I am not the "average" amateur. Thats why I thought AOTE was a good fit for me.

I am not afraid to show against the pros or their amateur trained horses. Im disillusioned by the fact that AOTE is not playing by the rules and people showing in it are not following the rules annd see nothing wrong with that.

All these answers on the forum are only confirming to me what I am seeing. To win at any cost and to heck with the rules!!! Little people like me are no longer the foundation of AMHA. Its all about big bucks.

To make the shows more attractive and affordable Judges need to judge by the rulebook. Stop placing people that are clearly breaking rules. Judges set the standard that others will follow. People are stretching and baitibg in halter. Rulebook clearly states "no baiting or stretching" but judges keep making champions out of these offenders. I could go on and on....

Im going to go to a AMHA show next summer 4 hours away. Gas and lodging and show fees. Looking at 475.00 for everything only one horse. After my experience at this show I will decide wether to remain with AMHA.

I also show pinto. I have no problems with this affordable association. We have no local AMHR shows. Interested in them....


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## DJF Miniature Show Horses (Oct 10, 2012)

In this down economy shows can cut costs by going back to having one judge. Then more people can afford the entry fee.

The Paint-O-Ramas in CA in the late 70s started the multi judge system. I didn't like that back then because the entry fee's went way up.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 10, 2012)

The problem with having one judge it doesn't help much when it comes to qualifying for Worlds or Nationals. Especially considering when it comes to qualifying for the World show when you must show under 6 judges and with the lack of shows having shows go do one judge the show itself may not be profitable as exhibitors may not feel it would be worth the drive. Also I can really speak only for AMHR many people show for points all-star or Hall of Fame and it would be hard to gain much points under one judge.

Now with that being said if you and others can come together and try to plan one out as others have mentioned like at fairs, local arenas just have one day shows it may work. But you have to find a way to get people in and I think fairs would be a great place to start to try and get new people to watch and possibly be interested in miniatures. One of my favorite shows I've been to was a 1 judge performance only show that was for one night out doors. Also for AMHR State and local fairs can be triple points but maybe someone else can give you more info on that.

Like others said it is not the responsibility of AMHA or AMHR to try and put on shows, it is the clubs, contact your local club and ask them what will it take to get a one judge show, or to lower entry fees. Perhaps just a clinic show the clubs can put on early part of the year and it can be like a fuzzy show or what ever and have one judge there and put on a actual show for points and the judge can explain why he picked this way and help exhibitors what they can improve on before the start of the real show season.


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## Minimor (Oct 10, 2012)

Dropping down to one judge won't be profitable for shows.people want extra judges for points and for qualification--and for the extra chance at a ribbon. If one judge doesn't like your horse, the other two might--with just one judge you have only one chance.

Fewer people wil attend a single judge show--instead they will haul further to a multiple-judge show. The single judge show takes in less money and so needs higher fees to pay for itself.


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## Suzie (Oct 10, 2012)

I totally agree with JMS. We have just recently started a club in western NC and one of the priorities we have is having clinics where we can train folks to have fun with their minis and then they can possibly go on to sanctioned shows in the future. If you do not have a grass-roots approach, the interest will wane and the registries can close the doors down the road. Folks need to have every opportunity to attend clinics on grooming, breeding, care and showing whenever they can be arranged.

Our club started with the idea of putting the fun back into shows. We are affliated with AMHR because they had no requirement for us to sponsor an AMHR only event to be affliated and were the most supportive of our venture. AMHA has more requirements that we just cannot fulfil at this time in our club budget, so they will go on the back burner for a while. There was a lot of interest from people who did not feel they were ready to step into a ring against professionals, but wanted the "show" experience anyway and we hope to open that door for them.

I was disappointed that some of the more established clubs in our area declined to post or promote our clinics on their websites. Information about clinics and mini events, whether or not directly sponsored by your club, should be shared with as many folks as possible. You never know where the next show participant or mini buyer will come from. If the American miniature horse is to survive in this economy, we need to think out of the box, not exclude people from the box...


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 10, 2012)

Amateur: I recall when AQHA first offered 'Amateur' classes(I am old, and liked QHs back WAY before all the current 'crap'...). I was HUGELY disappointed when I realized that ALL that was going to mean was that an 'amateur' would actually take the horse into a class, while EVERYTHING else could(and almost always WOULD) be done by a paid trainer; this when an old guy w/ lots of money and who could barely stay on a horse won BIG, for several years, in the "amateur" division, after its inception. That is how it IS, like it or not, in every horse breed organization I am familiar with. Though I have had occasion to be paid for training, I did not continue along that path(and 'laid out' the prescribed period of time afterwards), and since I have always trained and shown my OWN, qualify as a 'real' amateur.

AOTE is certainly a step in the right direction, though as was said, depends on personal integrity that is too often somewhat lacking in these times.

Multiple judge shows are really the best deal for the money, even with their inherent drawbacks. In these times, it just makes sense to not have to travel as much to quality for the national-level shows.

After reading Jean's post, I need to add...here, at least, where I was deeply involved for years w/ the annual AMHA show sponsored by the NM AMHA-affiliated mini horse club,a LARGE part of what 'drove' having a multi-judge show was the 'attendant' costs...of a nice, and adequate(stalling, indoor arena, etc.) facility, adequate workers, even dates to obtain such a facility, and the like. I would have been PERFECTLY happy to have simple ribbons, but my opinion on that did not prevail! In a relatively small, membership-wise, club, having enough 'volunteer workers' is always an issue;most wish to show, not 'work, work, work' running the show, like it or not, these days.

Multi-judge shows sure aren't the perfect solution...just what seems the'best' solution under the circumstancess.

Margo


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## Jean_B (Oct 10, 2012)

Gosh I hate those arguments about this organization is better than the other or visa versa. VERY VERY counter-productive!!

Very few AMHA shows being offered because it’s just not profitable to hold one. (Same holds true for AMHR.) Cost of shows is driven by the number of judges, the office fees per horse, fancy trophies (which I never cared about because they just collect dust and I HATE housework, I preferred SIMPLE ribbons that I would give back at the end of the show) etc. etc etc. REPEAT – NUMBER OF JUDGES. When I was putting on shows years ago the cost per judge was well over $1,000 per judge (judge's fee, transportation, hotel, meals). Put on a 4-judge show and the cost was close to $5,000 just for judges! I shudder to think what the cost is now!

I was raised showing Registered Holstein cattle. One judge. When I first told my family about multiple judge shows – the question was, “Well, then how in the heck do you know who the Grand Champion for that show was?” If you tried to explain that it really is like having 3 (or 4) shows at once, their response was, “Well, that’s just STUPID.” And it is!!

And so is the argument that you need to have all those judges in order to qualify for World (or Nationals….listen up ASPC BOD). Instead of a requirement of the # of judges….just change it to the number of qualifying shows. Period. NOTHING about the number of judges. Oh my gosh! It's a SIMPLE equation!

And the argument that people won't go to a 1-judge show? Horse puckey! People go to shows for many reasons, the LEAST of which is points. The majority go for the comraderie, to get their horses out in front of others, and to have a good time...and oh yeah....points are nice as a bonus.

Clubs and individuals putting on shows would breathe a HUGE sigh of relief, and more shows would be put on, creating more opportunities to show, and points.

Will this alone “save” AMHA? No, but it would make it more accessible to the masses, which could in turn lead to more people staying active in the organization.


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## wpsellwood (Oct 11, 2012)

I am not getting a great impression of AMHA at all! (From some reason it wont quote) Anyhow, if it makes you feel any better. Apparently there was an amt showing and won, and it was brought to the committes attention that this person wasnt an amt. It was proven and this person lost his/her awards. I think its just hard to regulate unless you have concrete proof so you have to catch people in the act.(pictures, documentation somewhere) I know there are many rule breakers in the AOTE program, people are always telling me so and so clipped their horses for them, but if I dont see it I cant do anything about it. The sad thing is, if you do something about you are the bad person, and you arent the one even cheating!!! You would think you would want to do it all yourself and be proud of your accomplishment not take credit for someone elses. Thats why there is amt level 1 and 2. Go there.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 11, 2012)

I showed AOTE this year. Did all my stuff myself, from clipping to training to whatever needed done. And the sad thing- it was for ONE class at Centrals and ONE class at Worlds. (He's a 2YO)

IF (and it's a big IF) I do AOTE next year I'll have TWO classes to show in if I drive him. TWO. Meanwhile, no one else can play with him, drive him, my youth can't show him, bathe him, whatever. For TWO classes.

To me, it just isn't worth it anymore. I like to share my horses with others, let the kids play with them, show him, drive him in parades and fun days and such. The girls love to show prep our horses- can't let them do that with an AOTE horse. So, I'll probably skip those classes next year. Shame- there was only four in my Worlds AOTE Jr Gelding class and ONE in the Central AOTE Jr Gelding- me.


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## targetsmom (Oct 11, 2012)

I think the CONCEPT of AOTE is great, but I can't show in those classes either because our minis are used for our 4-H Club. Instead, I prefer to show in the Open classes at Pinto shows and am not intimidated by those pro trainers. But they only offer 2 open mini halter classes, so no big name farms compete. Actually, we probably bring as many minis as anyone!

I think the bottom line is that we all want to compete against "people like us" where the competition is relatively even, and fair, and where you don't know ahead of time who will win. At a lot of our Pinto shows (I do points so see all the judge's cards) you will often see classes where one judge places someone first and another one last in a class of 6, with the other placings also mixed up. That way more people win and go home happy!


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## HGFarm (Oct 11, 2012)

Just an FYI, you do not have to be a club or in a club to put on a show. Anyone can put together a show and get it approved by the registry.


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## Charlotte (Oct 12, 2012)

"" I can't show in those classes either because our minis are used for our 4-H Club. ""

""it was for ONE class at Centrals and ONE class at Worlds. (He's a 2YO)

IF (and it's a big IF) I do AOTE next year I'll have TWO classes to show in if I drive him. TWO. Meanwhile, no one else can play with him, drive him, my youth can't show him, bathe him, whatever. For TWO classes. ""

Where on earth does this misinformation come from???

Doesn't anyone read the rule book????

The above two quotes are totally WRONG. That AMHA AOTE horse can show in any Amateur or Open class he is qualified for or Youth classes with a family member.

You can show that AMHA AOTE horse at any and all 4-H shows, saddle club shows, PtHA shows, AMHR shows and your kids and all of your family members just about back to the monkeys can show him too. AS LONG AS he isn't handled or groomed or trained by a professional (a professional is someone who takes money for working with horses)

Doesn't anyone read the rule book? Page 144 of the 2012 AMHA Rule Book. AND, if you have any questions contact a member of the AMHA Show Committee (get their contact info from the office if it's not on the web site)


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## targetsmom (Oct 12, 2012)

Well, I would certainly like to think that my statement was wrong, and I will check with AMHA. I was going by this on page 144 in the rule book:

a. AOTE Requirements

The horse exhibited by the AOTE must be trained,

conditioned2, groomed1 and shown ONLY3 by the

AOTE or a nonprofessional family member in all

divisions entered. Non-professional family

members are defined as: spouse, mother,

father, brother, sister, niece, nephew, son,

daughter, grand-child, grandparent, legal

ward, in-laws, step-children, step-parents and

step-siblings. No one with a professional trainer

in the household or on premises may compete in

the AOTE division.

Since our 4-H members are not related to us and they will be showing in 4-H classes in which THEY need to have clipped, groomed, etc, I assumed none of these horses could be shown AOTE by me. Of course, we own them, as far as AMHA is concerned they are not leased, and they will not see a pro trainer. We plan to have the kids show them in AMHA shows with a 4-H division, and I would be showing them in Ammy classes, and maybe Open classes. I want to be very careful about the rules to set a proper example for the kids!!!


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## Charlotte (Oct 12, 2012)

good for you targetsmom. I love to see support of 4-H since my kids were active for many years and it's such a good program. Check with the Show Committee on clarification of these rules, but, since the kids are not related to you......but check anyway. that may be something that needs a rule change for clarification.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 13, 2012)

Charlotte said:


> "" I can't show in those classes either because our minis are used for our 4-H Club. ""
> 
> ""it was for ONE class at Centrals and ONE class at Worlds. (He's a 2YO)
> 
> ...



I meant I can only show him in two_ AOTE _classes. I can, and do, show him in open classes. HOWEVER: my youth are NOT family members, and thus, cannot show him if I want to play AOTE. Heck, I can't even show a horse I CO-OWN due to the fact the other co-owner shows him AOTE. We are not related.

So, my remark went: if I want to play AOTE, for just two AOTE classes a YEAR, no one else can play with him. My family lives 1300 miles away, they sure aren't interested!


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## targetsmom (Oct 15, 2012)

OK, I did check with Christy at AMHA about the question of AOTE and having non-related kids work with your minis and here is the response:

Mary -



I have verified this with the Chair of the Show Rules Committee and you are correct in reading the rule. 



You would not be qualified for AOTE if the youth showing your horses is 4H and is not related to you as per the AMHA Rule Book.


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## Debby - LB (Oct 16, 2012)

targetsmom said:


> OK, I did check with Christy at AMHA about the question of AOTE and having non-related kids work with your minis and here is the response:
> 
> Mary -
> 
> ...


Thank you Mary for letting us know!

 Isn't it wonderful when a thread comes together to get the correct information out there!!

We should always go directly to the source for official answers so always double check, Mary had interpreted the rule book correctly but she double checked. Your number one source for answers about registry rules and regulations is always AMHA or AMHR/ASPC directly.


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## DJF Miniature Show Horses (Oct 24, 2012)

Thank you Jean-B (sorry my smart phone cant do the underline)

I agree with everything you said.

I apoligize to everyone if I came off angry. I am just so upset with the AMHA AOTE show people in the northwest. I can't get pictures or prove that they are cheating. They already hate me because I speak up and refuse to join thir deceptive group.

I will never be going to the world show. I show my minis for the pure joy of showing and playing dress up for the day. I disagree with it being more expensive with only one judge. Multi judge shows and point chasers dont have big attendance in my state. Paying several judges just jacks up the entry fee. I cant afford that.

PtHA really has it together. Reasonable fees and you dont qualify for the world show just go. I like there OCAP and other programs. Im looking into AMHR too. After what I have been through with the AOTE group here? And reading the posts here? Im done. AMHA die's then they brought it on themselves for allowing the big guns to deceive them. Sad very sad...

I like my Open shows, Fairs and Pinto. More middle class people like myself who train and prepare all by themselves.


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## Charlotte (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks everyone for getting the correct information out. And now, Who is willing to do the work to get a rule change proposal written up and presented? I really feel this is something that needs to be addressed and probably has not been brought to the attention of the Show Rules Committee in the past...or at least I haven't heard of anyone bringing up this issue.

Like I said...I REALLY like to hear of the miniature horse being used in 4-H and I would like to help to try to get some kind of rule change done that would allow the AOTE horse to be used for this purpose. And would this need to be for 'only' a registered 4-H member or would there possibly be cases where an AOTE horse might be used by an unrelated youth for driving? or open shows? or a parade, etc etc? I can't see any way these activities would be a conflict with the purpose of AOTE.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 24, 2012)

I just feel the need to share something here that recently came up for me. I sold a young double reg.stallion this summer to some very nice people who want to breed. They took this little man home and proceeded to fill in the paper work to have him transferred to their name and sent it off along with the appropriate fees (or so they thought) They just got the papers back last week telling them they must first buy a membership or the registry will not recognize their ownership (won't complete the transfer) They are not wealthy people and when they looked at what the 2 memberships plus transfers were going to cost they declined. He will not be transfered from my name and even worse, they will never register a single foal they breed because they see no reason to pay for memberships,transfers, then stallion reports, foal registrations, dna, and then permanent registration. They have decided they will NOT show in breed shows, won't register anything and will just happily breed unregistered horses to show in open shows and sell/enjoy as pets. That revenue is never coming back into AMHA coffers and they are not alone. I am a strong advocate for registering horses and I have also chosen to drop my memberships, altho I have also discontinued breeding. I know of several others making this same choice. Why must the registry charge for every move an owner makes? It is prohibitive to ownership and discourages newcomers and those like me who have been 'in the club' for years. It is even worse since we are Canadians and they charge more because we are not in the US (and when our dollar was below the US dollar it was really bad). Just my little vent.


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## Charlotte (Oct 24, 2012)

Question here regarding 4-H.... When my kids were in they had to be responsible for their horse in all areas...training, grooming, feeding and all care (of course with adult supervision), but they had to do the work daily and show prep. Is this not still the case? If it is still a requirement then how can an AOTE horse be appropriate for a 4-H'er? (before we go any farther with AMHA on this we better have some ducks in a row)


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## targetsmom (Oct 24, 2012)

I think the 4-H rules have changed over time and perhaps vary by state. When I was in 4-H 50 years ago, all of us owned our own horses and of course, did all our own work. These days, a lot of animals are leased and/or boarded so care really varies. In CT, 4-Hers have to keep records of the time they spend with their animal projects, breaking it down by category such as grooming, training, feeding, etc. As an example, we just had an "Open Barn" here tonight where the kids could work with their project animals and participate in stall cleaning, feeding,etc. Once the time changes, we are not sure if we will be able to continue the Open Barns once a week. In reality, our kids are young (oldest non-special needs members just turned 13) and pretty inexperienced, so the amount of "training" of the horses that they do is limited. But they do help out - under supervision - with stall cleaning and feeding. Of course, an experienced 18 or 19 year old member could potentially be doing a lot of the work and training. That is one reason that I don't see how how a rule change would work... in some cases a 4-Her COULD be giving the AOTE unfair advantage, if they were clipping, etc.

Now the rule here for 4-H Fairs is that the members are supposed to do all the "fitting" which for minis would included clipping, and they do have to do ALL the handling of the horses at the show. Only a few of our members were experienced enough for that this year, and even so, I did the clipping because I had a Pinto show the week before. I told the member to tell the judge she did not do the clipping, that the horse was already clipped, but she did the rest of the "fitting".

I am OK with leaving the rule the way it is, as I made my choice and picked 4-H over AOTE. But it does worry me that someone else might choose AOTE, and that would be a shame.


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## BriarwoodAcres (Oct 26, 2012)

I have a stallion that was purchased from LK that has applications for A and R. I wont be registering him with A because their prices are far to expensive for me when I am not a fan of th "A" horses. they're to little for my liking.


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## SampleMM (Oct 27, 2012)

Perhaps it "small" to you but some of the best horses in the country show AMHA. I have seen horses that continually do very well in AMHR get the gate at several of the AMHA shows..... just saying.


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## Minimor (Oct 27, 2012)

Just as there are AMHA winners who get the gate in AMHR.

Just saying.

I am puzzled, though, how are horse that is eligible for both A and R can be too small? I can understand someone preferring R becaused they don't care for horses less than 34". But--if you pick an under 34" how can AMHHA be too small?


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## Norah (Oct 27, 2012)

How about allowing ASPC AMHR classes on the same weekend , perhaps allowing AMHA on one day and AMHR ASPC on the second day ... it would help both registries !


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## Minimor (Oct 27, 2012)

Norah--that is allowed. There are a number of shows here that run ASPC/AMHR classes one day and AMHA the next.


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## Norah (Oct 28, 2012)

Here in Europe when it's suggested they always say AMHA doesn't allow AMHR and ASPC classes At a rated show... So , it's defiantly allowed ...??


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## Minimor (Oct 28, 2012)

Yes, for sure, many shows do it. You cannot mix classes on the same day but there is no problem having ASPC/AMHR on Saturday and AMHA on Sunday. They are not 'the same show' they are two separate one day shows.


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## minimomNC (Oct 28, 2012)

For the new owners who won't transfer because of membership cost, they only need one membership in AMHA, the spouse is eligible without paying a second membership. In AMHR you do have to pay for two individuals but at a reduced cost for the second member in the household. If they had wanted to breed and register foals, they will have to be members anyway.

For the person that won't register there stallion in AMHA because you don't like them that little? I am confused here. Your going to register the stallion in AMHR, his size will not change if you don't register him in AMHA. If he is going to outgrow his AMHA papers then I would understand that, but your not registering him with AMHA will not make him bigger.

Personally I think its a disservice to any horse to not have its paperwork in order. Down the line if you wanted to sell your stallion and he doesn't have AMHA papers, you might find it harder to make that sale. No one wants to deal with applications on a 6 year old no matter what registry it is. To much time, money and headache. If you do it now, it won't be harder later. As for prices, will your foals be worth the same price without AMHA papers? I find that its easier to appeal to more than one registry with any horse. While some are good enough to only have one set of papers, when the opportunity is there, why not make a horse more marketable to a broader range of buyers.


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## Minimor (Oct 28, 2012)

minimomNC said:


> For the new owners who won't transfer because of membership cost, they only need one membership in AMHA, the spouse is eligible without paying a second membership. In AMHR you do have to pay for two individuals but at a reduced cost for the second member in the household. If they had wanted to breed and register foals, they will have to be members anyway.
> 
> .


Actually that is not correct about AMHR.

For AMHR the rule is that the person sending in the paperwork must be a member. Yes, that means you can put two names on the papers and only one has to be a member. Yes, that means you can have the person you are buying from send in the paperwork if they are a member. Yes, that means your next door neighbor who is a member can send in paperwork for you.


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## BriarwoodAcres (Oct 28, 2012)

I guess IMO, I am not a fan of "A" as they prices are doubled compared to R.


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## BriarwoodAcres (Oct 28, 2012)

BriarwoodAcres said:


> I have a stallion that was purchased from LK that has applications for A and R. I wont be registering him with A because their prices are far to expensive for me when I am not a fan of th "A" horses. they're to little for my liking.



He is already registered A He is over right now as a 2 year old. He wont keep his papers so their is no reason to apply for a membership when he is the only one I will have as an A. He stands 34.5 right now.


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 28, 2012)

With all due respect...if the horse is already oversize for AMHA, you couldn't honestly take him Permanent there anyway, so it's not really a matter of your 'choice' whether or not to 'register him with AMHA', but a matter of following the rules.

Margo


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 28, 2012)

On the 4-H/unrelated youth issue---I can't see how that could be made to work. The 'concept' of AOTE I always thought was a good one.I was(don't breed show anymore, for several reasons) a prime example of an AOTE exhibitor--did ALL my own training, prep, showing, handling...which I LOVEDI have a genuine 'lifetime' of horse experience...took 'lessons' here and there, but didn't use 'trainers'...because through all those years, I became knowledgable about how to train, and love the immense satisfaction of bringing a horse to a highly usable level of knowledge and performance.

Unfortunately, I observed the AOTE rules (not 'always', but significantly, IMO)being subverted. It is next to impossible to 'police' such a program; in reality, it has to rely most heavily upon people's personal ethics. As I see it, the same thing would likely be an issue if AOTE horses were allowed to be used by 'any' youth in 4-H, or even in some of the other venues Charlotte mentions. It should always be remembered, too, that the 'law of unintended consequences' will likely rear its head in such situations.

Margo


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## BriarwoodAcres (Oct 28, 2012)

Margo_C-T said:


> With all due respect...if the horse is already oversize for AMHA, you couldn't honestly take him Permanent there anyway, so it's not really a matter of your 'choice' whether or not to 'register him with AMHA', but a matter of following the rules.
> 
> Margo


Correct, so in this case, there is no reason for spending the money on a membership when all of my mares are "R" only for his papers to be pulled is what I am saying. Does that make sense?


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## sfmini (Oct 28, 2012)

To DJF, I am not sure what in my posts you are responding to so I have no reply on that.

By the rules, I can have my horse with a trainer this year and show it AOTE next year as long as I bring it home before Jan. 1. It also allows people to freely buy horses and show them AOTE the following year without worrying about pro trainers in the horse's past.

If you limit an AOTE horse to that division for life, you ruin sales potential. Same goes for open horses.

Oh what a tangled web we weave.

As for the not being allowed to bait a halter horse, there is no rule forbidding that in the ring. For measuring yes, and heading a driving horse, catching at liberty, halter obstacle, no baiting. I find nothing in the rule book that doesn't allow baiting of a halter horse.

No stretching is allowed in halter or measuring, but there is a difference where the halter horse can have one hind leg back, and in measuring all 4 must be square. There are pictures in the rule book to illustrate acceptable poses for halter horses.

If you see people breaking rules, file a protest! If a judge is not doing the job correctly, ask for and fill out a judges evaluation form. They are read by the LOC and a copy without your name is passed on to the judge.

One rule I see broken constantly is dyed legs which are not allowed, but it is ignored.

PS, I am also a retired trainer, but my focus was dressage, no halter and no driving experience. I can train my own driving horses, but as I get older and more breakable I prefer to have someone start them for me.


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## Minimor (Oct 28, 2012)

For those who say that people do not prefer multi-judge shows, that this is a myth or whatever the line was...I guess then the people who have told me outright that they would rather go to a show with 3 judges rather than just 1--those people were lying? Multiple people have told me that, and I have had no reason to think they aren't bring honest.


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## minimomNC (Oct 28, 2012)

Minimor, I was just stating about memberships in general, not in respect to paperwork. Yes I know the person sending in the papers only need to be a member, but if someone is buying stock to use in breeding, they need to be a member to register their own foals. But to just be a member, you don't have to pay two full price memberships with either registry.

Briarwood Acres, its was confusing, you stated you had applications for A and R, but you then said the stallion is already registered but oversize. The right thing to do is send in his papers to AMHA and have them revoked. No need to transfer or get a membership. As for prices, some are higher in AMHA some higher in AMHR, I want to have horses registered with both, therefore I will pay the price for each one, I knew that when I got into minis 10 years ago. Now that we also have AMHA/ASPC horses, I again want the papers with both registries. My advantage is when AMHA still had life memberships, we got one. I do have to pay for AMHR every year for myself and my daughter. Membership has its priviledges LOL.


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## BriarwoodAcres (Oct 28, 2012)

minimomNC said:


> Minimor, I was just stating about memberships in general, not in respect to paperwork. Yes I know the person sending in the papers only need to be a member, but if someone is buying stock to use in breeding, they need to be a member to register their own foals. But to just be a member, you don't have to pay two full price memberships with either registry.
> 
> Briarwood Acres, its was confusing, you stated you had applications for A and R, but you then said the stallion is already registered but oversize. The right thing to do is send in his papers to AMHA and have them revoked. No need to transfer or get a membership. As for prices, some are higher in AMHA some higher in AMHR, I want to have horses registered with both, therefore I will pay the price for each one, I knew that when I got into minis 10 years ago. Now that we also have AMHA/ASPC horses, I again want the papers with both registries. My advantage is when AMHA still had life memberships, we got one. I do have to pay for AMHR every year for myself and my daughter. Membership has its priviledges LOL.


I think I realized what happened. I have 2 stallions, One of them has an application and the other one is registered but over the height requirement. I can say, the one who has an application WILL be sent in and an AMHA papered horse. I didnt know i could send the other ones papers in without a membership, Thanks!


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## JWC sr. (Oct 29, 2012)

You know there are a lot of really good folks out there that want to keep, breed and show their small equine that have quit because of a number of different reasons.

We hear from them all the time as we were so heavily involved with the AMHA horses and now for the most part only shown AMHR/ASPC for the last several years.

The comments usually range from they hated the politics, they felt they were not welcome in the registry, they could not compete, the economy is terrible, down to they just did not have any fun at the AMHA shows anymore.

I listen and very rarely make any comment other than to say there is a place for all sizes of small equine and you should keep/show what you personally like.

We have continued to breed our AMHA horses and dearly love them as well as we do our Shetlands and B sized minis as well.

We also will be showing at a few AMHA shows this coming year again also. I went to the recent Katy show (AMHA) just to see everyone and they had a small, but really fun show. The only thing I did not like was how old it made me feel seeing all the great kids we have known for so many years growing up so durn fast. Oh Well, that’s what I get for getting to be an old codger I guess!!

My suggestions to AMHA are as follows:


Do everything you can to include folks in the registry. Make classes, shows and awards for all levels of competition and types of horses. I was once told by a AMHR official 5 or 6 years ago that their approach was *“Inclusion is our prime goal, not exclusion for any reason” *Pretty durn smart approach from the results they are seeing over the last several years.

Along those lines set up a foundation division like they did in the Shetland registry where a horse has to have 4 or more traceable generations of miniature registered parentage.

Continue to expand and encourage youth and amateur participation.

Encourage participation in local shows with national awards being given for show results based on local show results only.

Anything else they can think of to encourage registry, local show participation and the owners of smaller herds around the country.



Just my two cents worth anyway. I honestly hope they make thru these rough times also.


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## Minxiesmom (Oct 30, 2012)

This was my first year showing in AMHA. I showed at three of the NWMHC shows and the Western Regionals. I come from a background of showing the last 5 yrs in Pinto in the NW with very successful results. I showed my Sr. Gelding in AOTE, Amateur Lvl 1 and Open Halter, Color, and AOTE Classic Driving and Amateur Lvl 1 Classic Driving. I did all my own grooming. I learned lots of tips and tricks from the other Amateur and AOTE gals that I became friends with. I, too, had heard that AMHA was no fun to show in because it was full of unfriendly and cut throat people. What I found was a WHOLE BUNCH of really fun, horse crazy people that I enjoyed and learned so much from!

I was successful showing my gelding, winning Western Regional Champion AOTE Sr. Gelding and Champion Amateur Level 1 Sr. Gelding. I got a Reserve Champion in Color. At no time did I see anyone showing in AOTE that was a trainer or had a horse in training. Granted, I didn't personally know everyone in my class, but I knew many of them. If someone's horse had been with a trainer after Jan 1, that was kept very secret.

AOTE in the NW is VERY COMPETITIVE! There are lots of people that have been showing for many years and are very good at it! I chose to become friends with those people and they took me under their wing and showed me the ropes. I have learned from one of the best and my results proved that I listened!

I love that Amateur is divided into Level 1 and 2. It gives newbys like me a better chance. It doesn't bother me one bit that some of those horses are in training. It just makes me become better at fitting and feeding my horses to compete. I even had the nerve to try showing in open!!! Hey, I wanted to see how I stacked up against those BNT. Did I win...no...but I wasn't too far behind them and I actually placed pretty repectably!

AMHA is fun. AOTE is fair. The people are nice. Even some of the trainers that ignored me the first couple of shows, started warming up to me and talking to me by the last show. It is all in what you make it to be! I can't afford to go to the World show because it is too far away from me. It's ok. I proved myself, to myself, at the Regionals. Maybe someday, I'll save enough and have the right horse to make the trip to the World, but probably not. I will be happy staying in the NW and showing my little geldings! I will enjoy the process and enjoy all my new friends!


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## joylee123 (Oct 31, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> I agree with what all of you have said, but my take: when we started showing years ago the clubs in our area, like a three or four hour drive, would host AMHA & AMHR, the entries were always less at the AMHA shows so they stopped hosting them. this is just my opinion, but the big time trainers have taken over AMHA, the ammy classes are really not ammy classes, as I've seen trainers hand the horse off to the ammy, so they are pro trained.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I understand what you are trying to get at but how many large breeds break their own horses to show? In AOTE you still have to do your own conditioning, all prep work like clipping, facials and you have to be good enough to maintain the training gone into the horse to begin with which is why it is so nice to have the different levels to allow beginners to grow and learn:0)


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## PrestigeMiniHorses (Oct 31, 2012)

I second the ordeal that cost is a huge ordeal with AMHA.. It can be expensive to show at their shows in comparison to some AMHR shows. I honestly do not own any AMHA horses at this time and didn't even renew my membership this year either as I knew I was not going to be showing with them. Kinda a bummer but thats not to say I won't in the future though. I also have to say that show at the World show would be a big deal its just costly. Showing at Nationals is hard to, yes you might not have to qualify on a point basis but to place top ten out of 30+ horses to me is a big deal!


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## joylee123 (Oct 31, 2012)

Flying minis said:


> Take advantage of the dissent in AMHR right now - there are MANY people in AMHR who are unhappy - at Nationals it was obvious, everything from the Shetland influence and prevalence ot the measuring (there were some BIG horses in both divisions). If AMHA could take advantage of that, they could gain many members. All the things you are talking about are ways to take advantage - lower fees, more shows, etc., but probably the biggest is for AMHA to ACTIVELY WELCOME new members. Whether justified or not, when talking to people about why they stay R and not A, the attitude of the members is the biggest reason. I've been told AMHA is more "snooty", "snobbish", "arrogant", and a number of other terms, by not just one or two but dozens of people. Whether this attitude is real or just a perception, it has to change in order to really grow the organization.
> 
> I'm in an area where I could easily attend multiple (at least 3) AMHA shows a year, but don't. I have both overs and unders, and half my horses couldn't show A. For me, I can really only show one registry, so it is the one that all my horses can show at. However, a lot of R breeders are concentrating on unders, as with the Shetland influence in R's, many breeders who don't want to "go Shetland" feel they can only be competitive in the unders. THOSE are the people AMHA needs to target!


I used to show AMHA back in the early 90's and for personal reasons not related to the horses stopped for a number of years. Several years ago I re-enterd the show ring (AMHA) and started attending several shows a year. I personally( we are a small little known farm) have been made to feel welcomed, have made bunches of friends, have been helped by both regular members and the professionals, and I in turn help anyone I can. I feel a MAJORITY of the individuals I've had the pleasure to meet involved with the AMHA ( members and staff) have been friendly, helpful and very nice! The show management folks I have dealt with have been exceptionally helpful, pleasent and very professional! I think in any horse show field you will find "snobbyness" I sometime think that can be a "horse" thing LOL! but my and my husbands experiences have been nothing less than wonderful!


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## joylee123 (Oct 31, 2012)

Minxiesmom said:


> This was my first year showing in AMHA. I showed at three of the NWMHC shows and the Western Regionals. I come from a background of showing the last 5 yrs in Pinto in the NW with very successful results. I showed my Sr. Gelding in AOTE, Amateur Lvl 1 and Open Halter, Color, and AOTE Classic Driving and Amateur Lvl 1 Classic Driving. I did all my own grooming. I learned lots of tips and tricks from the other Amateur and AOTE gals that I became friends with. I, too, had heard that AMHA was no fun to show in because it was full of unfriendly and cut throat people. What I found was a WHOLE BUNCH of really fun, horse crazy people that I enjoyed and learned so much from!
> 
> I was successful showing my gelding, winning Western Regional Champion AOTE Sr. Gelding and Champion Amateur Level 1 Sr. Gelding. I got a Reserve Champion in Color. At no time did I see anyone showing in AOTE that was a trainer or had a horse in training. Granted, I didn't personally know everyone in my class, but I knew many of them. If someone's horse had been with a trainer after Jan 1, that was kept very secret.
> 
> ...



Well said!!! It pretty much mirrors my experiences! Love my AOTE and Ammy classes and have done pretty darn well in my open classes too! Congrats on your awesome year!!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 31, 2012)

joylee123 said:


> I used to show AMHA back in the early 90's and for personal reasons not related to the horses stopped for a number of years. Several years ago I re-enterd the show ring (AMHA) and started attending several shows a year. I personally( we are a small little known farm) have been made to feel welcomed, have made bunches of friends, have been helped by both regular members and the professionals, and I in turn help anyone I can. I feel a MAJORITY of the individuals I've had the pleasure to meet involved with the AMHA ( members and staff) have been friendly, helpful and very nice! The show management folks I have dealt with have been exceptionally helpful, pleasent and very professional! I think in any horse show field you will find "snobbyness" I sometime think that can be a "horse" thing LOL! but my and my husbands experiences have been nothing less than wonderful!


I think this is true and for the most part I would say being made to feel unwelcome is not the issue at all for me. There are places I will never show because of attitude, have had people say "no point in showing against *** because they are no competition" and while I have been disappointed to be in a class where I felt I placed (or won) only because the others in the class had horses who were either notably poorer in quality or poorly turned out and presented I would not pull my entry (nor avoid entering) because those people need to try showing too and may be my biggest competitor next year when they have learned more or purchased a better horse. The vast majority of people I have met with minis are open and friendly, happy to talk to you and offer help to anyone who wants it. We really do have the nicest people in miniatures regardless of which registry they join IMO.

PrestigeMiniHorses says "It can be expensive to show at their shows in comparison to some AMHR shows." and I have to say that in our club's experience it costs us so much more to host an 'R' show and there are so many fewer horses to enter the classes that it is not worth it for us. We tried hosting a combined show and found the extra expense of 'R' was not worth the entries.

My complaint and that of others I have talked to is AMHAs inclination to charge for every little thing. In full sized horses when a foal is registered it remains so and the registry will not require you to pay again to register the horse as an adult. It does seem that the membership requirement to do anything with the registry is a trend and I know other registries do it as well but I know a number of people who will not bother to transfer a horse because that would require a membership and if it is a youngster then several years of memberships as well as 2 fees to register, DNA etc etc. So in my experience it is not the people it is the $$ that is keeping new members (and driving old ones) away.


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## Magic Marker Minis (Oct 31, 2012)

I think the best thing is for both registries to merge and have 3 day (or multi-day) shows: 1st day A Division 34" or under; 2nd day B Division 34" to 36" (or 38") and 3rd day for the Shetlands...

Each size competes within its size range. No crossovers. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges and bananas to bananas. If necessary, the under 34" division could be further subdivided into under 28", 28" to 30", 30" to 32", and 32" to 34" or whatever would be voted on/decided on.

There would be Champions and Grand Champions within each height division but NO COMPETITION between height divisions... Not fair any more than showing Quarter Horses against Arabians or Arabians against Morgan Horses. QH and Morgans have their roots in the Arabian Horse breed but are never shown against each other as far as I know (unless it is an open show and breed doesn't matter, just performance).

One registry and members could show their horses according to height with only one membership. No other breed of horse that I know of has two registries... Why two (or three if you count WCMHR) registries for Miniature Horses?

The one common mantra I see is everyone wants the Miniature Horse to be a horse BREED and not a HEIGHT breed. As long as there are three registries no one is going to agree on a breed standard. The Welsh Pony & Cob Society has Sections for A, B, C & D, according to size and/or body type horses (One Breed; Four Sections) and they show accordingly... why not do the same for Miniature Horses?

Go to: http://www.welshpony.org/index.php and read the descriptions of the four Welsh types...

Kari


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## Norah (Oct 31, 2012)

Magic Marker Minis said:


> I think the best thing is for both registries to merge and have 3 day (or multi-day) shows: 1st day A Division 34" or under; 2nd day B Division 34" to 36" (or 38") and 3rd day for the Shetlands...
> 
> Each size competes within its size range. No crossovers. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges and bananas to bananas. If necessary, the under 34" division could be further subdivided into under 28", 28" to 30", 30" to 32", and 32" to 34" or whatever would be voted on/decided on.
> 
> ...


I agree with this 100 percent ! I showed my ASPC mare in an open registered class against a quarter pony , and welsh cob ...i don't know how the judge could judge fairly in a situation like this . I would love to see AMHA allow all 3 registries at 1 show. If AMHA allowed this people could have AMHA registered shows in Europe , and still allow the other horses, AMHA would benefit financially .


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## Minimor (Oct 31, 2012)

I am curious how a show that runs AMHA one day and AMHR the next could find AMHR so much more expensive? AMHR requires a steward of course...our steward costs our show about $600. Judges fees would be the same for both shows and the AMHR show sanction fee is $35 per judge, so $105 for three judges. Does AMHA charge nothing at all?


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## I AM Ranch (Oct 31, 2012)

We too are new to showing. Our 3 rd AMHA show was this year's World show. I was pre warned about the people being not as friendly as the AMHR folks. Well, the people were incredible! Everyone was super nice and super helpful! I was there with my 3 daughters and they would come back to our barn all excited over meeting different people and how helpful they were. One experienced "shower" even took my 15 year old up and gave her a private lesson. Another person gave me some needed paste electrolyte. Another brought me dresses to try on when we unexpectedly qualified for the Grand driving class. I had only brought one dress for each of my classes. Another person took us to the bling store. Another offered us a shower in their camper. Another group fed us dinner one night. Another person helped pack up our trailer at the end.....I could just go on and on about the kindnesses shown. This next year, we are aiming for AMHR but that is only because we want to see the over 34" horses drive. But, I will always be grateful to our new and old AMHA friends for making our first World show a wonderful experience.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 31, 2012)

Magic Marker Minis said:


> I think the best thing is for both registries to merge and have 3 day (or multi-day) shows: 1st day A Division 34" or under; 2nd day B Division 34" to 36" (or 38") and 3rd day for the Shetlands...
> 
> Each size competes within its size range. No crossovers. Apples to apples, oranges to oranges and bananas to bananas. If necessary, the under 34" division could be further subdivided into under 28", 28" to 30", 30" to 32", and 32" to 34" or whatever would be voted on/decided on.
> 
> ...


There are actually several breeds that have different registries for the same horse. I have friends that breed and show big horse breeds.

Andalusians have the PRE registry as well as ILAHA.

Friesian horses have the FPS as well as the FHANA registry.

It is common especially with foreign breeds but there are similar challenges ( some consider one registry more prestigious, others prefer the cheaper registries...)


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Nov 1, 2012)

Minimor said:


> I am curious how a show that runs AMHA one day and AMHR the next could find AMHR so much more expensive? AMHR requires a steward of course...our steward costs our show about $600. Judges fees would be the same for both shows and the AMHR show sanction fee is $35 per judge, so $105 for three judges. Does AMHA charge nothing at all?


The cost of judges is the same for us regardless of which registry they judge for but since we must fly everyone in the extra person (steward) is a chunk of change for us when you add up flights, accommodations. meals and day fees, there are also the ribbons and whatever the champions receive beyond the ribbon, then to see only 4 or5 'R' horses entered it just isn't worth us running a combined show. AMHR is not popular in this province for the most part, there are a few out there but the owners don't seem terribly interested in showing. Or at least they weren't interested in hauling to our show so why bother. Even people only 5 or 6 hours away didn't enter so *for us* it was not worth it. In fairness we have not had exceptionally good turnouts for our 'A' show either and this year our club will probably not be going to the expense. Why spend all that money on a show when only our own members enter and many of us can not since we work the show. There is another club who has also dropped their show as well so there are fewer choices for those who do wish to show and they will now have to haul greater distances to take part. But that is another subject entirely

Disneyhorse is correct about there being other breeds with more than one registry, I believe even Arabians have at least 2 and maybe 3 registries.


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