# Brought over from main forum...



## Sue_C. (Sep 20, 2010)

> We run into this in the CDE world as well with the issue of whether advanced level drivers should be allowed to show a green horse at training level (is it fair to the brand-new drivers just starting out?) and so far the answer has been that while it's allowable, many trainers do not feel it's ethical and will show the horse at Prelim and just take it easy with them for the first few events.


I am afraid I have to disagree with this.

It SHOULD be all about the level the *horse* is at...NOT the driver. I think that a green horse, shown by an advanced driver is likely to achieve a higher level of performance faster than that same horse would if driven by a less advanced/talented driver...so it will even out in the end. What I mean by that, is that the horse isn't likely to need to be at training level very long...but deserves the chance to compete at its level, and not be rushed so someone feels warm and fuzzy because a "better" competitor has been removed from their level of competition.

What say you???


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 20, 2010)

I know I'm the one who wrote the original quote but I have mixed feelings about it anyway. I had always assumed it was what the horse was ready for regardless of who was driving him, but it was a few of the trainers in ADS who said they just weren't comfortable "taking over" a division intended to let novices succeed. What they did was technically enter Prelim but they only trotted the horse in the hazards and basically treated him or her like a Training Level entry and simply took the lower placing as a consequence.

I guess on the one hand it's like someone who regularly wins on the QH or Arab circuit bringing their horses to a local schooling show and winning everything when all they needed was a schooling session. It is poor sportsmanship to take all those ribbons you don't even care about from someone for whom that show might have been a very big deal! It is just not right, period. Come and school, but don't enter the class for ribbons. Have some courtesy.

On the other hand, a green horse is a green horse and I can't see that an international level competitor choosing to enter a four year old in that class is any worse than the "Perpetual Training Level Entry" who doesn't want to move up but continues to compete the same successful horse at Training Level for years and years and never lets anyone else have a chance. Around here a person who wins that consistently gets literally "chanted out" at the awards ceremony- as they get their upteenth first place ribbon their fellow competitors start cheerfully chanting "Move up! Move up! Move up!" The person is not required to move up at that point (I didn't when I got chanted), but there may be some ill feeling if there isn't a good clear reason for it. One might be that the person cannot afford appropriate equipment for the next level, has a health condition that makes driving fast through obstacles dangerous for them, or in my case my horse had specific issues we were working through that we hadn't yet conquered. I listed those reasons when asked and there were no hard feelings while I spent an additional couple of months at Training Level. As soon as he was ready we moved up.

Back on the previous hand though, we all know that a green horse handed over to a trainer at a clinic will look five times better than when his owner drives him. That's why we go to those lessons!




So I'm not sure it's entirely fair to have WEG-level drivers competing in a division designed for first-time competitors. A horse properly started by someone like that will likely look in a couple of months like an amateur's horse would after a couple of years.

I don't know what the answer is, to be honest. Neither does anyone else and that's why it's been a point of discussion for some time amongst the ADS membership.



I've never believed in dumbing down a sport to make everyone happy but at some point simple common courtesy has to be applied. A true sportsman will also find no joy in essentially taking candy from a baby. That's when it's time to go play with the big boys or take a little vacation. Maybe volunteer a bit!

There is nothing preventing that upper level competitor from taking his green horse HC. That way he puts the horse through a full Training Level event but is not eligible for ribbons, hence leaving them to those who truly are beginners.

Leia


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Sep 20, 2010)

I'm pretty new at showing in anything and an absolute beginner in ADS type showing but in my opinion this is a class to judge the horses level of training and so should be open to any horse who is at that level. Does that mean the experienced drivers will usually win, well sure but when did we get to a place where we felt like if we couldn't win as a beginner it was unfair and we should quit trying? No one is promised a successful go in any competition and if I do win against a more experienced driver (gee, pretty much all of them out there are more experienced at this point than me but we all start somewhere) there will be a lot more satisfaction and sense of accomplishment than if the only horses I can compete against are driven by people with very little experience. I for one am glad to embrace the challenge, accept that i must start at the bottom and truly earn my success and learn something in the process. My horse will be the better for it and if it takes me and her 3 years(or more or less) to move up well, its about what she's ready for not how long it takes to get there.


----------



## susanne (Sep 21, 2010)

I COMPLETELY agree with Reignmaker as to some newbies wanting things "dumbed down" so they have a chance to win.

Any win that comes from limiting the competition is an insult -- or the equivalent of competitive training wheels.

In the one schooling CDE I've competed in to date, I sucked big time (poor Mingus had to deal with his semi-blind whip, who got him lost on marathon and missed the exit in cones!) -- but we learned so much and had a great time. But I was somewhat embarrassed to receive the most improved ribbon, as it is a bit of a back-handed compliment.

I measure myself against THE BEST, and while for now I DO NOT measure up, this is who I want to compete against. Why would I work so hard for anything less?

As for the horse, we need to consider their best interest above all else. To expect a green horse to compete in a higher level is quite unfair.


----------



## Kendra (Sep 21, 2010)

I would much rather lose to someone who was better than me, than be in a class without them just so I could win. Being against someone better than you is how you improve! I think it'd be fun to be in training level against an advanced driver showing a green horse, just to say I actually competed with them!

I've learned this summer, that I much prefer sanctioned shows, whether AMHA or EC, because no one at those shows makes me feel like I should apologise for working hard with my horse and trying to put in the best performance. Competitions are how I gauge how I'm doing, and yeah, truth be told, I'm trying to win. But if I don't, that's just an incentive to work harder next time, not to put in rules to change who I compete against.


----------



## RhineStone (Sep 21, 2010)

At one CDE this year, Chad had two Advanced-level drivers in his Training Horse class (our horse has been shown in Pleasure shows for 10+ years, but just started in CDEs). The Advanced drivers got 1st and 3rd. Chad got 4th while the lady who got 2nd he had beat at the HDT the month before. So we figure that by the time you weed out the really good drivers, he actually got 2nd!



I keep a spreadsheet record of all our placings at each show and who the officials were. I also keep a note of little things like "two Advanced drivers in class", so that when we look on it in the future, it makes more sense as to why he went from 1st to 4th in a month. I also keep track of dressage scores and other "blips" that may have affected the scores/placings. That record has really helped show our progress over the years!

As far as those "worthless ribbons" go, many times those very experienced drivers who are driving green horses are doing it for clients who really care about those ribbons, so just because the driver may not care doesn't mean that somebody doesn't. I have known pro trainers/drivers who have won divisions and had to give the big prize to the owner! If I owned those horses, I sure wouldn't want my driver to push my horse faster than they are capable or give up a placing because some novice doesn't want to compete against my horse.

If there is one thing that I have learned in the past couple of years is that one reason those professional horses/drivers are so much better than the other horses has _some_ to do with talent, but a lot to do with the amount of time that is spent on that horse!



Yes, if we were getting paid to work our horses, it would be easier to put in more time with them, but I know plenty of people that whine about "professional drivers/horseman" and then work with their horse 1 or 2 times a week or even a month! You want to do better, work your critter! I can't tell you how much faster Alax came along after I started working with him _seriously_ 3-4 times a week instead of a month! And by "seriously", I mean for an hour to two, with quality work on specific skills vs. just driving him around and around for 15 min.

Myrna


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 21, 2010)

Clearly I'm on the unpopular side here



but just to share a few more thoughts....



susanne said:


> Any win that comes from limiting the competition is an insult -- or the equivalent of competitive training wheels....
> 
> As for the horse, we need to consider their best interest above all else. To expect a green horse to compete in a higher level is quite unfair.


I don't think it's considered training wheels to break the competition down into different levels when there become too many entries. Every sport does that! We have youth classes so kids don't have to compete strictly with the adults, amateur classes so newbies don't have to compete with professionals, etc., and I don't hear anyone saying a win in a youth or amateur class "doesn't count" or is an insult. Sure it means more if the win comes in open, but that's a choice the competitor can make.

To me these two statements quoted above seem like opposites. So on the one hand, limiting the competition to those in your own general skill level is cheating. On the other hand, the horse should never be asked to compete at a higher level than they're ready for. Why is that true for the horse but not for the driver? A green driver has every bit as much to learn as a green horse.

I'm all in favor of paying your dues and working your way up from the bottom; I've spent my whole competitive life doing that and am very proud of what my horses and I have accomplished. I watched how the successful drivers did things, asked questions, worked my @$$ off and just about came unglued the first time I beat them. I knew I'd earned it and that meant a lot! At the same time though, it IS discouraging to always be up against The Big Names in what is supposed to be a division for greenhorns and I honestly don't think it's fair. I'm not talking someone who has worked their way up to Intermediate and is starting a new horse. I'm talking a FEI-level Big Name Trainer who does this for a living, who's horse is already well on it's way to Prelim work by the time it enters Training, and for whom a Training level course is a joke.

I don't know, I guess I just feel like true courtesy and sportsmanship are dying in our society. If the owner of that horse (as opposed to the trainer driving it) wants so badly to see how that horse would do in competition, then get out there and drive it yourself! Otherwise, either wait until the horse is ready and enter it Prelim or go HC at Training level to school the youngster.

It's the difference between a trainer putting a horse in a Maiden Horse class, where it has every right to be, and a trainer entering a Novice Driver class. The problem is that in CDE Training level serves as both.

Leia


----------



## RhineStone (Sep 21, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I don't think it's considered training wheels to break the competition down into different levels when there become too many entries. Every sport does that! *We have youth classes so kids don't have to compete strictly with the adults*, amateur classes so newbies don't have to compete with professionals, etc., and *I don't hear anyone saying a win in a youth or amateur class "doesn't count" or is an insult.*


That is because the adults don't want to have to compete against the kids!






We entered our 8 yr. old son in the Novice Driver division at Villa Louis (the schedule worked better than the Jr. division with me being in VSE), and he went Reserve against 13 other adults!





Myrna (more later, I have to go to a meeting....)


----------



## MiLo Minis (Sep 21, 2010)

"What they did was technically enter Prelim but they only trotted the horse in the hazards and basically treated him or her like a Training Level entry and simply took the lower placing as a consequence."

I really don't think that the hazards are where a green horse shows his inability to compete at Prelim level. It is entirely possible for a really quick trotting athletic horse to make it through hazards at that gait and win. It is in the dressage portion that a green horse is going to be unable to do the moves required and where it would be unfair of the driver to ask it of him. I see nothing wrong at all with either a professional driver or an advanced amateur driver entering a green or training level horse in the appropriate level for him. As a professional I think you would make yourself look foolish entering a horse in a level that is beyond his capability. As far as going hors concours with that horse I really don't see any reason why a green horse and it's owner is not deserving of the same reward a green driver with an experienced horse or green driver/green horse combination deserves when it wins. I wouldn't hesitate to enter a green horse in training level.

"It's the difference between a trainer putting a horse in a Maiden Horse class, where it has every right to be, and a trainer entering a Novice Driver class. The problem is that, in CDE, Training level serves as both."

I feel there is a good reason for this. Pushing a horse to compete in a higher level could easily be his career downfall. Allowing him to compete at a level that he is capable of performing at allows the horse to gradually build. Competing at CDE is an expensive business and unless the horse is competitive it is also fruitless.


----------



## susanne (Sep 21, 2010)

> So on the one hand, limiting the competition to those in your own general skill level is cheating.


Just to clarify: I was not suggesting that the competitors in a divided class would be CHEATING, but rather that I personally would FEEL CHEATED.

If I'm going to work that hard and pay my entry fee, I want to compete against the "big boys."

Granted, in CDE I am at the Training level, but I see that as where my horse qualifies -- if it were for me, I'd be in a considerably lower level!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 22, 2010)

@Susanne: *LOL!*

I'm quite willing to be convinced on this subject so keep those counter-arguments coming. It's interesting to see the differences in opinion!

MiLo, I'm curious what elements of a Preliminary test you think are too hard for a Training Level horse. The only ones that are different to the best of my recollection are a smaller circle, a half-circle, a serpentine the width of the whole arena and a lengthened trot. Now obviously a green horse is not going to be able to do a true lengthened trot but it won't hurt him to do a working trot across the diagonal and for the other figures, well, if he can't do those he has no business being taken around a hazard even at Training Level! Anyone who would slam an unbalanced horse around a hazard (and there are many, sadly) is already a very poor horseman in my estimation. A good hazard -sorry, "obstacle"



- run, whether at a trot or higher speed, should be based on the same balance that is learned and tested through those dressage figures. If he can't do those at a basic level then IMO he shouldn't be out on course even at Training level doing much tighter turns.

I'm in no way saying a Training level horse can do a GOOD prelim test, we all know there's much more to it than just dancing the figures, but if he's ready for hazards even at a respectable working trot then he ought to be able to do a big serpentine. And remember, the only horses I'd be discussing in this case are in the hands of truly outstanding drivers who would be more than capable of helping the horse stay balanced.

Not saying those drivers shouldn't enter Training Level, at this point I'm just curious about the specific point brought up by MiLo. You know how I love a good discussion!

Leia

P.S.- What bugs me far more and crops up around here a lot is drivers who want to jump UP a level when their horse isn't ready just because they think Training level is boring and slow. I've been reminded that people go into CDE for different reasons but it still bugs me when dressage is ignored in favor of speed.


----------



## LazyRanch (Sep 28, 2010)

We just went through this at our last ADT. One driver in our group - and she drives a Quarter Horse - opted to drive her horse in Preliminary. She is a green driver, this is her first event, and the horse is moving from the gymkhana arena to driving, so also green where ADTs are concerned. Why did she opt for Prelim? Because she cannot keep her horse to a trot!

I'm new to combined driving, but I am going to toss my 2 cents in from a long time combined training/3-day event point of view.

I competed this year in the Green Driver division. It was a blessing, and clearly defined as Green Driver, in that I would not be eligible for this division next year. Regardless of what I had done previously, I have only been driving since January, 2010, and my horse is also green in that he'd never done dressage, seen cones, or driven hazards or obstacles, or even shown in breed shows. For us, Green Driver was a no brainer. The fact that we drive the same test as Training, had the same cones times and no times on the hazards allows green drivers to experience the training level without going crazy in the hazards - a good opportunity to see hazards in various states and plan for one's horse's abilities.

Training level should have relatively little to do with the driver - the driver's experience should have been brought on in lessons, and the Green Driver division. Training should be where the *horse* gains its foundation. That is why the dressage tests are written the way they are - to develop steady, accurate gaits and paces, willingness to go forward, to be obedient, to go where the driver puts him. Dressage isn't just about circles, working trot and rein back. It's about acquiring the suppleness and flexibility necessary to turn cones, blast through hazards and bring home a horse who is sound because he has become a willing, attentive athlete, able to stretch a working trot into a ground eating extended trot, then snap it back to a medium trot - or even a halt, when an incorrect gate suddenly jumps in the way. Training tests are the beginning of bend, which leads to pivot, and willingness to put that pivot around a cone. It's a basic foundation for what is to come.

A second point to green horses going into Training, regardless of driver level is the dressage judge. If the judge is doing his/her job, he/she has ingrained in the brain, those gaits and instructions printed at the top of each test. For the driver, those sections should be studied and applied. If the horse cannot do them with some proficiency, then it is not ready for the test in a competitive venue. If one reads the Training test instructions, one will see that "transitions *are* made through the walk. Longitudinal stretch an moderate lateral bend are required." By the time one gets to a Prelim test, the horse should have progressed to: "Horse must show longitudinal & bend & increased activity of haunches." Also, transitions *may* be made through the walk. This is what a judge will be looking for in a preliminary test. Take time to read Training and Prelim tests and look at the differences. Now consider the Quarter Horse from above. A judge seeing this horse pop up and maybe break into a canter for a step or two will score it far more harshly in a Prelim test than a Training test. It is equally bad at either level, but there is more leeway at the Training level. As many have learned, a great dressage test will carry a team through shaky cones or hazards, but a really poor dressage test will be devilishly hard to make up.

Finally, at the training level cones and hazards, a green drive needs to develop an "eye" for the course. Yes, walking the courses is a must do - as many times as necessary. But many green drivers do not realize how much a course can change after 20 horses have run over it. Sand piles up and makes a speed bump out of what was once a flat surface at that 7AM walk, the water hazard was nicely raked for the first horse, I was horse #41 and the water was surrounded by deep ruts and slides in the mud, and by the way that one hazard with the poles had developed enough of a sand bank to roll a cart and eject the driver - because she didn't know enough to look out for that, she too having moved to Prelim so she could canter. The point being that a more experienced driver - even a second year driver - should have learned how to keep a green horse out of trouble. Training level should be where the horse learns to rely on his driver, who should be keeping both of them out of trouble. Goodness! That's why times are slower at training!

A training level horse - the green horse - should be able to get through cones and hazards whether the driver is a trainer, permanent Training driver, aggressive amateur, or 2nd year driver. Yes, the more experienced driver will do better, but a savvy 2nd year driver will balance the end result if he/she has paid attention.

And some horses should, perhaps, never leave training: they may never become fit enough for the longer courses or fast enough for Preliminary and Intermediate times. The point is that, first and foremost, the event should be safe for the horses, the competitors, and fun for everyone - including the horses.

One last comment regarding the dressage. Any horse can do the figures, in much the same way that anyone can put on ice skates and within a fairly short period of time, do the same line figures Olympic skaters do - not the jumps of course, but the figures. However, it is the suppleness, the ability to bend and flex, that gives those figures life and beauty. For this reason, skaters are still required to perform the basics - the straight lines, circles and figure 8s for the judge - to demonstrate they have done their basics and are ready to move on. In the same way those figures eventually lead advanced skaters to "airs above the ground" the turns, circles, serpentines, transitions, halts and rein backs, when correctly and accurately done, give life and beauty to the movement - because the horse is balanced and capable, working from behind and willing. They too lead to the more advanced movements. It usually doesn't hurt a lower level horse to perform the movements, but compare a horse that is flat and unbending to a flexing, supple horse and understand why one will fly through cones and one will plank around, balls in flight.

Just my 2 cents - maybe a nickle.


----------



## RhineStone (Sep 28, 2010)

So help me understand, you have a Green Driver _division_ in addition to Training level division at your shows? That is a great idea. We don't have anything like that around here. But then again, most drivers here start out in the ADS pleasure shows before they move to CDEs, so they usually really aren't "green drivers" for CDEs.

I'm working on a green mare to take to the CDEs next year, and I have been driving for about 20 years and 10 competitively. I wouldn't want to take her _at all_ in anything above Training level. It would be too much for her. Eventually, I think she is going to make a great CDE horse, but I don't push _any_ of my horses.

Myrna


----------



## MiLo Minis (Sep 28, 2010)

LazyRanch said:


> Dressage isn't just about circles, working trot and rein back. It's about acquiring the suppleness and flexibility necessary to turn cones, blast through hazards and bring home a horse who is sound because he has become a willing, attentive athlete, able to stretch a working trot into a ground eating extended trot, then snap it back to a medium trot - or even a halt, when an incorrect gate suddenly jumps in the way. Training tests are the beginning of bend, which leads to pivot, and willingness to put that pivot around a cone. It's a basic foundation for what is to come.
> 
> As many have learned, a great dressage test will carry a team through shaky cones or hazards, but a really poor dressage test will be devilishly hard to make up.
> 
> ...


VERY nicely put! I agree wholeheartedly. A trainer taking a horse in preliminary that is not capable of performing at the preliminary level is made to look foolish.


----------



## LazyRanch (Sep 28, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> So help me understand, you have a Green Driver _division_ in addition to Training level division at your shows? That is a great idea. We don't have anything like that around here. But then again, most drivers here start out in the ADS pleasure shows before they move to CDEs, so they usually really aren't "green drivers" for CDEs.
> 
> I'm working on a green mare to take to the CDEs next year, and I have been driving for about 20 years and 10 competitively. I wouldn't want to take her _at all_ in anything above Training level. It would be too much for her. Eventually, I think she is going to make a great CDE horse, but I don't push _any_ of my horses.
> 
> Myrna


Yes, the intent was to bring new drivers into the club. Here is the official definition on this:

*Training Green Driver is limited to those who are new to driving in 2010, or first time competitors in an*

*ADT Series (or did not qualify for a year end award in the previous series), and who have never competed in a CDE above training level, or in more than one CDE at training level. Any driver eligible for green driver may compete for one entire series in that level, and will be required to move out of the green class in the next series. The Green Driver level is designed for beginner drivers. Scores in hazards are not taken or counted for Green Drivers.*

*Obviously, the year changes. *



*Training Green Driver is structured so that even if a driver has a LOT of arena or drill or ? experience, but no combined driving experience, he/she qualifies as a green driver. About the funniest thing I saw last season was an "old pro" arena driver, having entered his "pro" horse in Prelim - they just had so much experience! Yes, the horse did the "maneuvers" of the dressage, yes the horse made it through the cones (although several cones were dragged off and balls ran amok). They did finally E out on the first hazard - not enough walking the course.*



*It really doesn't matter how many years a person has in a particular sport - changing sports will most likely require a new skill set, and this is what the Green Driver division was created to teach. I really like it! Sadly, since this fellow competed Prelim, he couldn't come back as a Green Driver. But he did learn his lesson, and is better at asking questions. His horse went training this year. *



*On another track for Training level - and again, this was astride, but the same logic would apply, I think. I had a jumper come to me. He had literally had a nervous breakdown. Although he was 4th level dressage and Intermediate over fences, well capable of entering at the Preliminary level, in terms of capability and scope, I started him at Pre-Training level. He simply didn't have the coping skills for anything more. Most people who had known him previous to his breakdown, and shortly thereafter, were shocked to seen him competing again, he'd been so trashed. But as you say, Myrna, not rushing was key. Eventually he became an Advanced 3-day horse, but there was a lot of groundwork laid and confidence built. That is really what Training level is for, and I wish VSE drivers would take that to heart.*


----------



## LazyRanch (Sep 28, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> VERY nicely put! I agree wholeheartedly. A trainer taking a horse in preliminary that is not capable of performing at the preliminary level is made to look foolish.


As Leia mentioned, if a horse cannot perform the movements, likely he shouldn't be running hazards even at Training. This is true on two levels:

1) if the horse has not acquired the willingness and obedience necessary to perform the movements - e.g. he is unwilling to give to left or right, respond to half-halts, etc., or is more likely to fling his head up, rather than willingly give to the rein - then he may well present a hazard to himself, if not to his whip.

2) if the horse has not acquired the suppleness of movement, the ability to lengthen or shorten - even to a small degree - the chances of him being injured are greater. More sprains and muscle strains are attributed to stiff or tight muscles than any other single issue (except possibly ignorant riders/drivers).

Again, the lower tests are designed to develop that flexibility and obedience. As an astride example (and I wish I knew enough about driving to give a better example) watch someone teach their horse to canter! Do they rock the horse back on his haunches, or allow the horse to trot out faster and faster until it finally falls into the canter? CAN the horse rock back for the strike off - has it been taught to use that giant rump?

IMHO


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 28, 2010)

Beautiful, beautiful posts Sheryl. You and I have got to meet up someday!



LazyRanch said:


> On another track for Training level - and again, this was astride, but the same logic would apply, I think. I had a jumper come to me. He had literally had a nervous breakdown. Although he was 4th level dressage and Intermediate over fences, well capable of entering at the Preliminary level, in terms of capability and scope, I started him at Pre-Training level. He simply didn't have the coping skills for anything more. Most people who had known him previous to his breakdown, and shortly thereafter, were shocked to seen him competing again, he'd been so trashed. *But as you say, Myrna, not rushing was key. Eventually he became an Advanced 3-day horse, but there was a lot of groundwork laid and confidence built. That is really what Training level is for, and I wish VSE drivers would take that to heart.*


I agree with this 610%!!! My Arab had a similar nervous breakdown from experiences he had before I got him and I spent a lot of years rehabbing him mentally. It was SO IMPORTANT not to rush him! That is why when I got Kody, my CDE mini, we spent as long as I felt was necessary at Training Level. We did our first competition in 2005, got more serious in 2006, and only in 2007 did we really start coming together and begin to consider moving up. I had simply not put the time into him that I needed to until then and Kody has some physical problems that meant he needed slow, methodical, consistent work to develop to his potential. It all came together in 2008 when the little brat won four out of five Preliminary level events we entered (and the fifth was his driver's fault, not his!



) against as many as 11 other VSE's and all of this after spending the winter recovering from bilateral stifle procedures.



When it happened, it happened, but only because I took as much time as that particular horse needed to come together.

Now I do expect that my new colt will come on faster than Kody did but that's because I have a lot more experience now and won't be learning the basics right along with him. I am very happy to go back to Training Level with Turbo and wish I could do the same with Kody as post-back injury he is not up to Preliminary level physically and may never be again. The colt and I will take our time laying his foundations just as I did with Kody and I hope that when he is eventually ready to move up to Prelim he will be confident, supple and forward. He's much better built for the sport than my last horse but just like any youngster he's got his own issues that need working through! I am excited and happy to be getting back in the cart and back to work. The ribbons are fun and I'm pretty serious about pursuing them but my real joy in working with my horses is just in making progress with every drive. Why on earth would I want to skip that for the sake of speed?





Leia


----------



## LazyRanch (Sep 28, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Beautiful, beautiful posts Sheryl. You and I have got to meet up someday!
> 
> Leia


Leia, I do hope we meet at some point. Linda Smith - and Bob as well - laid the fire, soaked me in kerosene and flipped the match. You were one of the people who fanned flames. I have followed you and Kody for the last couple years. I was sorry to hear about his troubles, and about your Arab.

Hopefully, 2011 will see PJ and me doing our first sanctioned event, an event in southern AZ, and an overall year's worth of foundation upon which we can build a road trip to WA or OR!

Cheryl


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 28, 2010)

Road trips are awesome!! I'll save a stall for you and PJ here at Happ's and if you wait until 2012 I can even compete with you instead of just saying "hi."



If you wait any longer than that you might find me in the multiples division with Kody out in front of a tandem hitch, blazing the way with that big heart of his.





Leia


----------



## LazyRanch (Sep 29, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Road trips are awesome!! I'll save a stall for you and PJ here at Happ's and if you wait until 2012 I can even compete with you instead of just saying "hi."
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will wait for the opportunity to compete with you in 2012 - and I _*love*_ that you say compete _with_, not against, because that's the fun of it!

In return, 2011 is giving Northern AZ it's first sanctioned event. If it makes it to 2012, I will save *you* a stall!

I love the thought of Kody in a tandem, and will thoroughly enjoy seeing him compete again!

Please give him a big hug for me.


----------



## MiLo Minis (Sep 29, 2010)

I believe a sound, healthy horse can relatively easily get around a cross country obstacle course on his own balance with relatively little worry about injury over the short term. It may not look pretty but then it doesn't have to. In dressage that is unlikely as there it does need to look pretty and a horse moving on his own balance cannot perform the moves we ask of him with any precision. At training level where less precision is required a green horse is more likely to achieve a good score. A horse needs to be able to rock well back on his haunches in order to give us those transitions in prelim without walkings steps in between that are allowed at the training level.


----------



## RhineStone (Sep 29, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> We did our first competition in 2005, got more serious in 2006, and only in 2007 did we really start coming together and begin to consider moving up.


For anybody out there reading, this isn't any different for pleasure shows as well as CDEs. When we start a new horse at a pleasure show, we take it VERY slow. We don't drive cones fast, we don't ask for tremendous Strong Trots, we take it very easy in Gambler's Choice-style obstacles (real trail-class type obstacles vs. just cones). With all of our very successful horses, it took them three years to become seriously competitive and start winning divisions. The horse almost _tells_ us when they are ready to take things to the next level. You can _feel_ them start to drive _themselves_ more aggressively. They pick up the start whistle and the word "Go!". It's like they say, "I've done this before, I know what to do now!"




There is a sense of calm in the horse that wasn't there the first year when they were busy looking around at things wondering, "Mom (Dad), what did you get me into!"



By the third year, they seem to be ready to "take on the world". They realize that this is just another new adventure. There is a greater sense of trust that has been developed between driver and horse. BUT, this won't happen with a horse that is pushed beyond their physical and mental capabilities those first couple of years. You might place great the first year, but after a while the horse's mind goes south and you have to start over. If you want longevity, take it slow. Focus on the horse and the ribbons will come eventually...over and over.

Myrna


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 29, 2010)

LazyRanch said:


> In return, 2011 is giving Northern AZ it's first sanctioned event. If it makes it to 2012, I will save *you* a stall!


I would love that! I might have to fly down and borrow a horse though as I discovered on my trip to California's Ram Tap in April 2007 that it is simply not fair to ask a Washington horse to compete with those from warmer climes without an extended time to acclimate. We'd been trying to condition in the ice and rain since January, clipped in a snowstorm two days before we left then got down there to temps in the 80's, deep sand footing and horses who had been training in sunny clear weather without pause for the last year. My poor boy was lucky to make it through the marathon! Although I had a good time I will never do that again, especially to a Training Level horse. It just isn't fair to them when we can't start seriously conditioning 'til late March.



LazyRanch said:


> I love the thought of Kody in a tandem, and will thoroughly enjoy seeing him compete again!Please give him a big hug for me.


Can do on the hug! I restarted his lateral work in-hand last night in preparation for resuming harness training over the winter so we'll see how he does with regular light work. I'm hoping it doesn't prove to be too much for him!



RhineStone said:


> The horse almost _tells_ us when they are ready to take things to the next level. You can _feel_ them start to drive _themselves_ more aggressively. They pick up the start whistle and the word "Go!". It's like they say, "I've done this before, I know what to do now!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Amen, Myrna! They go from "what are we doing here??" to doing what you ask to making the task their own with increasing confidence. THAT is when you know it's okay to push them!

The only problem with horses who think they know what to do is sometimes they start second-guessing you.



Kody knows darn well he's supposed to go between anything with markers on it but hasn't quite figured out that red must be on the right so sometimes he fights to "correct" my course when I try to take him around a set of poles we're supposed to go through backwards. Silly horse!



I keep telling him I'm the navigator, he's the muscle. Sometimes it almost works....*LOL*

(And yes, I know, the horse does not get to make decisions.)

Leia


----------



## RhineStone (Sep 29, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> The only problem with horses who think they know what to do is *sometimes they start second-guessing you*.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Been there! Sometimes I think he thinks I am nuts going in some of the circles we have to do to complete the course.





Myrna


----------



## LazyRanch (Oct 2, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Been there! Sometimes I think he thinks I am nuts going in some of the circles we have to do to complete the course.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My horse, PJ, was green as grass when we started this season - no shows, no competitions, no dressage, cones or hazards. So he was easy - start from scratch, and take each day as it came.

Mom's horse, on the other hand, has been in total charge of pretty much any arena he's stepped in. He has a TON of presence, excellent gaits and paces, and has shown, I am told, extensively and through Nationals very successfully. At some point, I mentioned to his previous owner that I was considering combined driving - she was not amused.

Rascal has not been amused either. He considers himself very "professional." Ungroomed arenas are "not professional." Driving down dirt roads is "not professional." Breeching is "not professional." Considered _*ESPECIALLY unprofessional*_ are: HyperBike, cones, hazards, trotting flat out furiously, and driving up hill and down dale. Rather than refuse to do something - the ULTIMATE unprofessional act - he would do whatever it was as fast as he possibly could.

Everyone had told me he was a "hot" horse, but what I have come to discover is that he has not learned to relax in harness, or have a sense of humour about things. That's what I am working on now - his sense of humour and relaxing enough to laugh about it - even if it isn't "professional." I have taken him to a couple classes with which he is extremely familiar, but also to a Darby and a play day. We have such a great mini club here - people like each other, cheer each other on, and laugh a LOT. So here's this horse standing around with a bunch of folks who give him cookies - even after doing something completely, and decidedly ridiculous - like run around barrels.

Eventually, I think he's going to make a saaweeeet combined horse, but I figure I am looking at a minimum of 18 months - and not worried about it. When we get there, I want *him* to finish the the day with a big ol' grin on his lips!


----------



## susanne (Oct 2, 2010)

Sheryl, I love your description of Rascal -- gotta love those princess geldings!

No wonder he has an under-developed sense of humor -- whyever would his previous owner be "not amused" at the idea of CDE?

I'm sure you'll have him grinning in no time!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 2, 2010)

LazyRanch said:


> Everyone had told me he was a "hot" horse, but what I have come to discover is that *he has not learned to relax in harness*, or have a sense of humour about things.


Upper level registry show horses are taught to be "on" from the moment that check goes on until they are unhitched. They are to leap up into the next gait when kissed at, halt immediately and ALWAYS be ready to move out in a showy fashion. The ones I have watched go through training really aren't hot but they've been taught to look like it with those snappy and overreactive responses. As long as the horse isn't actually an idiot I suppose that brilliance is admirable, but not what I want in a CDE horse or one I plan to drive on the trails. I'm still debating how I'm going to get a combination of those features in Turbo! I'm leaning towards teaching him that when the overcheck goes on brilliance and spark are expected and the rest of the time he is to relax and drive as normal. We'll see!

Leia


----------



## LazyRanch (Oct 3, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I'm still debating how I'm going to get a combination of those features in Turbo! I'm leaning towards teaching him that when the overcheck goes on brilliance and spark are expected and the rest of the time he is to relax and drive as normal. We'll see!
> 
> Leia


Roger on the "kiss" deal! I kiss to my horses for certain things - but rocket departure was never one of them. It has taken me a few months, but Rascal and I now have a system worked out: half halt and a kiss means one thing, kiss alone I expect to be blasted to the back of the seat.

When I rode combined training, my wonderful trainer decided the time had come for me to jump the log lorrie. To this end, he had me pull out a wonderful old, (well) retired ex-Olympian. I am thinking this horse 20-something, lame in 3 legs, and winded - and I am likely to die on this day. As I am making peace with my life, Tom hands me a very old (extremely well kept) bridle, and a pair of equally old boots. "Have Stuart help you with the bridle, and put the boots on first." Oh dear.

So I tack the beast, saddle, breastplate and boots. The horse goes from ancient, lame, hacky to paw, paw, paw, snort. Stuart comes in grinning ear to ear with the ancient bridle - and mind you, his usual bridle is a hollow mouth Fulmer full cheek snaffle, and the ancient bridle has a Boucher - both very fat snaffles - and the horse starts corking up and down in the cross-ties! He's 17.1, I'm 4'10" and two of us are wrestling this bridle on a now fire-breathing equine dragon. "You'll need these," Stuart hands me leather gloves, "and a leg up. Once you get on, I'll head him 'til you've got your reins, then trot him out, if you can keep him there - and he may buck, but he'll come right."

Great googlie mooglie! I barely have reins and no stirrups, when my dragon rips free from Stuart, charges out the barn - huge trot - forget the stirrups, post the trot and half-check each stride, hope we manage to get some semblance of decorum before Tom sees us. Woods knows exactly where he's going and keeps the pace until he reaches the cross-country gate. For a moment, seriously, I thought he was just going to jump it - it was a 5' gate, but if we were going to jump a log lorrie, I had to assume he could jump a gate. But there he stopped, all snorting and yelling, while I gathered stirrup and rein. The rest of the outing went well.

The point of the tale, however was driven home: Woods was bored in his Fulmer - to him, *not* a serious bit, a beginner's bit, soft and floppy for beginners' hands. But the Boucher! *That* was his competition bit. And those old boots? Those got him through 2 Olympics and they meant business!

I took this cue for my cutting pony: curb for cows, Fulmer and buckle boots for eventing. And again with a ruined jumper: big, fat snaffles and bandages for jumper classes, double bridle for dressage, hollowmouth eggbutt and boots for hazards. Various horses over the years have had different tack - they get it. So now, Rascal is going with his half-cheek broken snaffle (which he knows and trusts, and which fits him well enough not to nutcracker in his mouth) for his pleasure classes, and a mullen half-cheek for trail, and now Darby, cones, etc. His dressage is hopeless, but at least in the mullen, he feels like it won't ever hurt him, so he can experience new things, without being too concerned about his mouth. I am still looking for boots for his little legs, but I do wrap for cones and obstacles.

I would say, again as a beginner driver this might not be quite an accurate thought, but you will know, if Turbo goes well in an overcheck, and has room in his mouth, you might put in an overcheck bit, so he has that concept of overcheck and driving bits equal fire and snort showman. Then for combined driving, whatever bit he works well in. But definitely some sort of distinct change.


----------

