# The new harness is here, pics of first fitting



## SappyAppy (Apr 13, 2013)

I posted a few weeks ago about getting a new harness custom made at the Amish shop nearby. We've had some hiccups along the way but it's finally done and I'm mostly happy with it, although it needs a few adjustments. The harness maker was really clear that he would have done many things differently, and I can certainly see room for improvement, but I'm generally pleased. This is the first harness he's made that was "outside the box" of the usual Amish type harness, so we both learned a bit about construction and I got a pretty good deal I think, although the finish details could be better in some regards.

I'm concerned that the breeching is a bit too small. The breast collar is too new to lay nicely across his shoulders yet, and trying to get that neck strap vertical seems like an impossible dream! Ditto with the saddle, but the Professor was having a fat day lol. 

I have to take that bridle back in asap, the noseband and browband I believe got mixed up in the course of constructing the browband is a little too tight but the noseband is HUGE. And it is just a piece that goes over the top of the nose, not sure I like that. I guess I didn't know enough to ask for any options on that piece so I got what he makes standard. I'm quite sure this can be fixed though, not too worried about it. He could just attach a plain black chin piece to the nose piece so I can snug it down I think. 

So here are pics


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## Minimor (Apr 13, 2013)

I am sorry to say that I think your breast collar is much too wide. Even when it lies flat...I think it is going to be covering his point of shoulder (very bad, because pressure on the point of shoulder can cause nerve damage) and may also put pressure on the lower end of his wind pipe--the breast collar should always fit between the two--low enough to not interfere with his breathing and high enough to stay off the point of shoulder.


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## SappyAppy (Apr 13, 2013)

Thank you minimor, and please don't be sorry, this harness maker will fix anything that isn't quite right, he wants to make this a part of his regular product line and is way open to fixes and learning more.

So if I understand correctly, I need to deepen the scoop at the top of the collar while taking off, maybe an inch, or more? from the bottom of the collar?


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## Minimor (Apr 13, 2013)

Good that he will fix it!!

Yes--scoop some out at the top, in the center, and some off the bottom--measure to see how much needs to come off to free his shoulders.


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 13, 2013)

I think he did a good job on the blinders. So many times those aren't very adjustable and these look good to me.

Ask him to put buckles on your reins instead of snaps. There is an observation on the Bit Observation thread about that.

Your boy looks so expressive! He will be stunning working in the cart!

(Is it just the photo or do his feet look rather long?)


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## SappyAppy (Apr 13, 2013)

That's what I'll do, but ill add some pressure on the traces coming from the same height as the single tree to get it to lay as it will when he's in draft.

I have seen so many different designs of breast collars that range from totally straight with no curve to deeply scooped that I assumed any curve would be helpful. That was the form he had for a mini breast collar, I just told him to make it a bit wider for comfort. Are we sure I don't just need to adjust the front neck strap longer and the back one shorter? I almost think that would help but I see that it's still very wide.

I never thought I'd get it all right the first time, and my goal was to end up with a very nice harness that could do almost anything I could want it to.


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## SappyAppy (Apr 13, 2013)

Marsha, he was just trimmed about 6 weeks ago, he's due but not overdue. He's on the same schedule as our show horses now but wasn't so he had gotten a bit long from being in between etc. I think it's the pic angle making them look a little odd.

We adore him, he's my only mini and he's just so unique!

Oh and the snaps on the reins come off, they have buckle ends. I just left them like that to try it on yesterday.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 13, 2013)

I have to say that, taking the amount you are paying into account, I expected much better than this! I would ask him to take off all the clunky brown "trim" as it just looks tacky (to my mind- others may like it but I don't) and leave the harness a lot slimmer and lighter. The noseband needs sorting- and not just as you are saying, it needs to be remade! This was not a cheap harness, you need it done right. It looks to me as if he was making a work harness for a plough horse.......you do not have a plough horse!

Even the blinders, which give plenty of room, are not really wide enough at the base, meaning the horse will be able to see behind it, which sort of defeats the point of blinders in the first place....oh I'm going to stop now, I am being negative, I know! The breast collar also needs all the thick leather removed...sorry, I did say I was stopping, didn't I?

Take it back.

Take a picture of what you want with you, also.


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## rbrown (Apr 13, 2013)

Agreed that the breastcollar looks too thick. The other thing that caught my eye is the saddle- it looks odd, like the brown padding needs to come further down on the sides, or not be there at all. I would take Rabbitsfizz's advice and bring along a photo (or several!) of what you want the harness to look like so it's very clear to your harnessmaker.

For reference, here's the best pic I can find at the moment showing how wide my freedom collar is on Kandy. Any wider and I'm not sure it would be effective, as it would be in the way of either her shoulders or her windpipe.


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## Minimor (Apr 13, 2013)

I think the saddle is patterned after a draft harness--team draft, which is not used with shafts. I have seen a couple others made this way--not what I would choose for sure but...

The shaped collar in rbrown's post is ideal--good clearance for both shoulders and windpipe.


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## SappyAppy (Apr 13, 2013)

I paid under 300 for this harness. I took pictures along of some things i liked, but obviously everything wasn't understood. Honestly while some things aren't ideal my main focus was comfort and other than needing to tweak or rebuild that collar and maybe add a pad under the saddle i feel he'll be comfortable.

As for the Brown leather, yes that did not come out the way i had in mind. I just wanted a subtle accent.

Well this has been a learning experience. I knew it would be, and mistakes and all I have learned and am learning much about harness function. Does it really have nothing at all that is good about it?


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## rbrown (Apr 14, 2013)

I think under $300 is a good deal for that harness. That said, if you custom ordered certain things and the harness didn't end up looking like what you ordered, then you didn't get such a good deal!

Perhaps he could strip the russet pieces and swap that out for russet lining. Then the breastcollar and breeching wouldn't be too thick, and that shouldn't be terribly difficult for your harnessmaker. I think that alone would make a big difference, and if he could switch your noseband out and bring the russet lining down the saddle a bit, I think you'll have a very nice harness.

This is the only photo I have of Skippy's harness with russet lining- her breeching is narrower than yours, but still plenty wide to distribute the pressure (and the russet lining makes it nice and comfy for her). Actually, I'm not sure that any wider would actually be more comfortable- it would probably be too bulky to be comfy for her. Same with the breastcollar. If you have him take off the bulky brown leather pieces and add the russet lining to the main (black) part of your breeching and breastcollar, I think your harness will end up looking more like Skip's.

If this look isn't quite what you're going for, then I'd definitely try to find a picture of what you want, or even draw it out, and bring that to your harnessmaker.


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## SappyAppy (Apr 14, 2013)

rbrown your pic is just adorable in so many ways, I'm in love with the two great looking horses with the beautiful autumn background!

I did take him pics of the rather expensive and beautiful harnesses with the russet lining so he knew what I wanted. He was unable to source the right brown leather and when I got back out there to check he'd sewn this leather on already. I asked him to add the black padding to that so it would be smooth on the horses skin. I did have him bring the black padding down the saddle quite a bit also, it's just so much finer than the brown that you don't really see it in the pictures.

I sort of thought it would end up a little drafty looking but the Professor is a sturdy slightly drafty guy so I thought it might be ok. It has things that I wanted about it, all sewn construction, mostly roller buckles, brass. 

I still have no idea about the fit as that's the first time I put a harness on any horse ever, and I fit it up on him just from my readings here. I had hoped for suggestions about what I'd done wrong but obviously the other things that are wrong about it dwarf the way it might fit him. 

 I'll have to put a little thought into what to do with this situation now. He'll have to totally rebuild the collar, saddle, and breeching to get rid of the brown, which I did want in the first place, just not quite like that. 

I wonder if I should just go buy him some brown vinyl and have him line the whole thing with that.


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 14, 2013)

Don't stress too much. I think most harnesses evolve with our use of them. Every sport is like that. My son is a competitive mountain biker. There is nothing left of his original bike--every piece has been replaced over the last two years as he has used it and made changes, even the frame. My original harness has the saddle and breast collar/traces, but nothing else is the same. (Except the bridle--it's the best bridle I've ever seen.) I'm getting ready to order the camptown breast collar, so even that won't be the same any more.

I think you should use and enjoy the harness, and as you work with it you'll find things that are good and not so good, and your harness guy sounds like he's willing to work with you. You probably won't be entering any competitive marathon events right away, since you're just getting started, so don't worry about all that. Your horse is not tiny, so he will be fine. Looks like he's ready to get started! Have fun with him!

I think most of us are still working toward the ideal as we progress with our learning and experience. I feel a v collar will be good for my horse, so imo, it is a step toward my ideal. What step comes after that? Who knows! I wish I had a harness guy, like you do, who is intrigued by the challenge and willing to get creative.

All of us have a stash of leather parts in our barn. Things we've tried, things we've upgraded, things we've discarded. Drivers have to start somewhere! If we all waited for everything to be perfect we'd never get going.


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## Minimor (Apr 14, 2013)

No brown vinyl for lining!

Marsha is right--you have the harness made, there is nothing wring without of it--do get that breast collar adjusted because that is important--you do not want your horse to be uncomfortable and you don't want to risk any permanent damage from the breast collar putting pressure on the point of shoulder. Definitely replace the browband with a longer one and get a proper cavesson put on the bridle, and you should be good to go. It isn't a harness that you would want to show with but it should be perfectly serviceable for driving down the road and having fun with.

You mention the breeching being too short--I don't believe it is--perhaps it could be a little longer but it looks okay as it is--definitely usable (I've had some that were simply too short to put on at all!).


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## paintponylvr (Apr 14, 2013)

Well, for a first try at harness design and what you paid, I think it's pretty awesome. Guess I'm a little different that way...

BUT - I do agree on the breast collar. You had already explained what had happened on the leather in a previous post (with pics), and I'd have to go find it, but thought you'd said that he & you were changing that. I've mostly worked with straight breast collars myself - both with all in one traces and with the buckle in traces. So I was not able to help with your design there - previously or now (IMO). However, maybe you can take the pics in of the harness(s) others are showing and see if yours can be made to be more like that? If possible, take your guy with you so that you (and the harness maker) can see where the breast collar needs to curve up to free up the shoulders.

I'm not sure I see a problem with the blinders... Throatlatch strap also looks like it could be longer (easy fix - keep the one you have for extra and get an extra at least 1" longer). LOVE how he has LOTS of room between the browband and his ears - that's been an issue with many harness (s) I've had or borrowed for fit - even the pricey ones!

Yes, your noseband looks like it was fashioned to follow the draft/work type harness. Think I'd said to someone else that could be an issue with making harness thru an Amish maker. (may have been a different forum - can't find my post). You can either have that one shortened OR just go with a nose band strap that goes in between the bit and the first buckle. I like the look of the lining on the headstall (brow & nosebands) and don't really think they are too large for pleasure driving your guy. Not appropriate for showing, though.

LOVE the buckles on your lines - you can always remove the snaps (or put different ones on). I totally forgot to have a set made with buckles and next week will be sending lines back to have buckles sewn on... My fault, I knew they didn't normally come with buckles and that I needed to both ask and adjust cost for them.

Yes, again, your "saddle" appears to be fashioned after the draft/drought style work harness. The shape and the length. But it's not necessarily bad - if you like it/can live with it. In one pic it looks kinda short - but maybe it's not? I've had pinching issues with harness (longer saddles) coming too far down - between the straps and the buckle(s) on both sides...

Can you move the saddle back a bit (your fitting - and his conformation, not the make of the harness)? Maybe consider an extra, longer girth. Not sure where you want the buckles sitting in his "elbow pocket", but I prefer the buckles to be a little higher - easier for me personally to buckle and not having the buckles "under" the horse, LOL.

The breeching is OK... doesn't really appear to be too large/thick/wide for *your* guy. IF redoing it is included at no extra cost - then a little narrower would be better. Not sure how wide yours is, nor how much I'd take off. If it's going to cost more - I think I'd leave it be.

If he's the only one you will be driving in this harness and his cart, and you don't mind taking the time to do the wrap adjustments every time, remove the snap from the hold back straps and put the HBstraps directly on the breeching ring. The amish use the snaps because they leave the hold back straps attached to the cart adjusted for the one horse/pony and then just snap it on the breeching when they put the horse between the shafts. Indeed - the harness I bought had to order the hold back straps separate as they sell the hold back straps WITH the cart, LOL. I even had a different company whom I purchased a "work" cart (Pioneer Forecart) from ask about the size of hold back straps I wanted... I went ahead and got them - doesn't hurt ot have the extra straps, but I'd already gotten them with my harness.

Sometimes, too much tweaking defeats the purpose of the cost... when you are on a budget.


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## paintponylvr (Apr 14, 2013)

Marsha Cassada said:


> Don't stress too much. I think most harnesses evolve with our use of them. Every sport is like that. My son is a competitive mountain biker. There is nothing left of his original bike--every piece has been replaced over the last two years as he has used it and made changes, even the frame. My original harness has the saddle and breast collar/traces, but nothing else is the same. (Except the bridle--it's the best bridle I've ever seen.) I'm getting ready to order the camptown breast collar, so even that won't be the same any more.
> 
> I think you should use and enjoy the harness, and as you work with it you'll find things that are good and not so good, and your harness guy sounds like he's willing to work with you. You probably won't be entering any competitive marathon events right away, since you're just getting started, so don't worry about all that. Your horse is not tiny, so he will be fine. Looks like he's ready to get started! Have fun with him!
> 
> ...


O, thank you Marsha!!!

So eloquently said and what a relief for every party. One of her last posts "sounded" so down and this post is SOOO on the mark!!

I also have a very different situation. I have "all" Shetland ponies - but they have different body builds and different body movement. That also affects harness fit. I have two young mares that are barely 39" *at the withers. *But they have different measurements at the last hair of the mane AND one is bigger around (breeching is 2 inches longer to fit her and hip straps had to be lengthened by 1 1/2" on each side). The saddle of a standard mini harness fit her ok, but had to get longer shaft holders and longer girth. Backstrap/turnback is also longer but only by one hole (a big surprise). Then the final surprises - the mini bridle fit her better than the smaller mare (who needed longer straps for the cheeks) and the breast collar fit fine! The cremello is wearing the standard mini harness and I had to purchase extra parts for the dark silver mare. Don't have pics with the new parts yet...











These two mares are inter-related - though they aren't direct siblings or cousins... I purchased them as foals from the same breeder. The dark silver was born in May and the cremello filly was only 6 weeks old when I purchased them in September. Don't think that age has anything to do with thier size(s).


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## SappyAppy (Apr 14, 2013)

Thanks for the votes of confidence and great suggestions. I was getting a bit down about the way it came out. The overall look is indeed boxy. When I saw that it was headed the wrong way I asked him to shave the brown down narrower before adding the black padding, and believe it or not he did, just not down to a mere brown line as I had in mind, but clearly didn't explain well enough. It would have been just an accent line and shrunk those pieces down by a good inch.

I understand on the breast collar needs better now and will make sure he does too. We got room for breathing right but missed the shoulder clearance. It will entail a rebuild but it can be done and will be worth it, as his comfort is my priority, within my budget. Even if I had to pay for that rebuild I would. I can see clearly now that a straight breascollar wouldn't work right with him, his shoulders are higher than his windpipe for sure. If that made sense.

I've already measured for the new throatlatch strap, thankfully that will be super easy!

I think he can use the existing noseband piece to make it go all the way around his nose, while my huntseat background makes me want a full cavesson it does seem like it might be too much bulk.

I'm waiting to see if the browband settles into place a bit, it's not way too short, might lay down into a perfect fit, especially when the throatlatch isn't pulling the cheekpieces back.

I think I'll have to experiment with that saddle a bit, while it's treed it still wants to roll around when I move it back, I believe the Professor is just a bit too round right now to hold it still unless i put it right ON his wither, which is barely there! He gets a good work out and jumps several times a week, can't believe how this guy holds his weight, it's crazy. I will try again on fitting that better. If it buckled higher I would indeed like that better so I'll have a look at it today to see what's possible re a different girth.

I will assume the breeching is ok then, although it seems like I want to keep pulling it forward more and there just isn't enough there to do it with. Not that I know why I want to do that, from what I see on here and read it's within the realm of correct so I guess I just need to leave that alone.

He's definitely the only one who will be using this harness and cart, so as long as it works for him we're good. Paintponylvr, you've made my head swim just thinking about how differently and sometimes illogically these things fit on individual horses who seem so close in size. I think we need to have engineering degrees to figure it all out!

As for the holdback straps/snaps, honestly I have no idea if I'll mind wrapping them every time, because I don't even know how to do that yet. Probably if wrapping them is the right thing then that's what I'll end up doing.

Again thanks for the suggestions, critique, and help making sure he's comfy.


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## rbrown (Apr 14, 2013)

Ditto what Marsha said! I have a big bin full of harness parts sitting in storage from my first few harnesses. I upgraded pieces at a time until I could afford my two Camptowns. The first upgrade I made was the breastcollars, so that would be my priority if I were you. I think the length of the breaching is fine. It may just look too short due to the thickness.

As far as lining, I know mine are lined with thinner treated leather. Perhaps your harnessmaker can find a similar material.

Thank you for the compliment on the picture- I have very few photos of my minis together, since I only drive them single (for now!) and usually go to the barn by myself and don't have anyone to take photos. This was last fall when my sister came to the barn to drive with me


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## SappyAppy (Apr 14, 2013)

Well things have gotten somewhat jumbled up, originally I wanted an all synthetic harness, didn't want leather at all. Now I have synthetic with two kinds of leather lining. The black lining is thin and soft and that was what I wanted in the first place, just in brown and with a bit more padding than he usually makes.

Maybe I really should take it back and make him totally rework it, since the appearance of the breascollar is going to be different and there's no way to change it without taking it all apart anyway. It would be easy enough to rework the breeching design to match. Not so much with the saddle. He wants this to be right too. I hate to be critical to him of course and the price was ok, but I feel like he's got the means to make it perfect so in a way, why compromise? Even if I had to pay him for some of the rework I'd be under what a normal retail purchase of one of the comfy fits would be, with (I think) a very comparable harness. I see advantages for him too, he can then make more for retail sale and probably charge more than $300 for them and have a good market, mini driving around here is growing.

Hmm. I have to take a serious long look at that saddle, and see how I might be able to suggest a redesign to be "right".


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 14, 2013)

I would forget worrying about a caveson or noseband. What purpose does it serve anyway? The only reason you might need a noseband or caveson is if you have to use a flash. And if a gullet strap is basically useless, why worry about that either? I think I'm going to take mine off my open headstall after reading recent posts. Even a browband is actually superfluous. Maybe I'll take that off, too... Just gets in the way of the forelock. I think most of those are just there to support ornamentation and serve no real purpose.

Did you say the crupper was rolled? I might have missed it in some of the posts.


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## SappyAppy (Apr 14, 2013)

Crupper is rolled and soft. I guess that's ok anyway lol


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 14, 2013)

Sorry I thought you had said it was $700 hence the small breakdown on my part!!

The noseband holds the bottom part of the cheekpieces closed, that is what it is there for on a driving bridle and why, in European harness bridles, anyway, it slots through the cheekpieces instead of being separate

I would definitely have a noseband on that bridle....

The breeching looks fine to me.


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## SappyAppy (Apr 14, 2013)

I'm sorry rabbitsfizz, I may have mentioned that number meaning it would have similar elements to harnesses costing 700, which was my intention and hope!


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 14, 2013)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Sorry I thought you had said it was $700 hence the small breakdown on my part!!
> 
> The noseband holds the bottom part of the cheekpieces closed, that is what it is there for on a driving bridle and why, in European harness bridles, anyway, it slots through the cheekpieces instead of being separate
> 
> ...


I've never seen a miniature driving bridle with a nose band. I've ordered 3 in the last few years and none had a noseband. They came with cavesons, but, it is my understanding that those are not used to secure the headstall as they go under it.

I did attach a flash to a caveson for a mare that kept getting her tongue over the bit, and actually attached my sidecheck to the caveson for a show as it would not work on my myler bit. Other than that, they just seem superfluous.

I think a noseband would be effective on a headstall. I wonder why none of mine ever came with one? My open bridle does not have one either. Maybe I will root through my stash of leather parts and see if one could be fabricated. If so, it would be interesting to see how it affected the bridle fit.


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## Minimor (Apr 14, 2013)

In actual fact a noseband does help hold the cheeks steady, preventing the blinkers from moving and allowing the horse see what is behind him. With the Morgans, who always show with colored cavessons, we would use a shoe lace tied from cheek to cheek, over the nose. Look closely at a picture of a Morgan harness horse and you will likely see this lace.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 18, 2013)

That's interesting- so, what for you is the difference between a cavesson and a noseband - here they are the same thing really, although maybe a cavesson might mean a padded noseband.


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## Minimor (Apr 18, 2013)

These are cavesson sets.which is what is always used on the Morgan show horses (well, always used on properly attired Morgan show horses! Thats not to say someone might not show up in the ring with improper attire!) http://www.victorcustomtack.com/cavesons.html  I might be inclined to call the noseband portion a noseband sometimes (though not usually) but I would never refer to an actual noseband on a driving bridle as a cavesson. For me a noseband is simply thata nosebandthat piece of leather strap that goes through the cheekpieces on the bridle and goes over the nose and buckles under the jawit does not have its own crownpiece.

My Mini harnesses all have cavessons, and I am okay with that. I rarely use a cavesson anyway (only for showing). My horses generally start driving in open bridles so if the bridle cheeks were to gape a bit & allow the horse to see back past the blinkers it wouldnt be a problemif there is much gaping on a particular horse & I think its enough to be a problem then Ill tie the shoelace from cheek to cheek. I really do not like the simple nosebands that run through the cheek pieces.

Of course to cloud the issue there is the dropped noseband which does have its own crownpiece but because it fits differently than a cavesson it is a noseband & not a cavesson. :lol


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## Jetiki (Apr 18, 2013)

I don't like just nosebands (single strap with no crown piece) They come off (when not on the horse), they get lost, they too me seem more of a bother than useful, I specially ordered a cavesson for my harnesses, I like the look, the feel and they way the lay on the horses' noses better.


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 26, 2013)

Sappyappy, what's the latest on the harness? Keep us posted!


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## paintponylvr (Apr 27, 2013)

I've got my new harness from the shop now too. I am loading pics in a new post...

So... how goes the harness design?


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 29, 2013)

A caveson is a noseband, it's as simple as that, it is just a slightly different sort of noseband, that's all.

As far as driving goes, I doubt you would get a European driving horse with a caveson on the bridle, so it's just one more example of the US doing things differently from the rest of the world, I guess. In fifty years I have never lost a noseband....


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