# False Pregnancy



## sams (Apr 13, 2009)

I have a maiden mare that should foal anytime now (I dont know the exact date, should be anywhere from march to may) now i am starting to get worried that it is a false pregnancy. I wonder because last year the stallion bred two mares, one WAS a false pregnance and the other i dont know about. Her belly is huge like she is prego and has a bad attitude but no utter, also this morning she let the stallion mount her instead of trying to kill him as per their regular morning ritual. anyone have any ideas on this. Also this is my first pregnant mini.


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## shelly (Apr 13, 2009)

Any pics so we can see this girl?


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## WLS (Apr 13, 2009)

If you want to be sure about your mare, have your vet do an ultrasound. I had a mare once that was ultra sounded to be in foal, she got huge, developed an udder and even had lots of colostrum. Finally when she was over due of more than a month and driving me crazy; the vet re-ultra sounded which revealed her uterus was full of fluid and the foal was gone. Obviously the foal had been absorbed at some point, but the hormone level made the mare act if she was still pregnant.

So the vet injected the mare on a couple of sessions with a hormone solution which helped her pass the fluid. This mare never acted "in heat" for months and months after she got over this ordeal. However, some pregnant mares will continue to tease the stallion while pregnant. Mares can do weird things.!! Best of luck.


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## targetsmom (Apr 13, 2009)

You could also do a Wee Foal Urine test which can detect a false pregnancy. (It will be negative if that is what she is doing). It is based on something the fetus produces rather than the mare's hormones. For me, it would be a lot cheaper and quicker than an US and can be done up to 300 days. I had a mare with a false pregnancy in 2007 - after she had been confirmed in foal by US - so I understand your frustration. Our mare bagged up and produced milk that went all the way from clear to white and then she just stopped progressing.


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## sams (Apr 13, 2009)

ok, just went and took some pics, but my computer dosnt want to download them right now. I know their stomachs do the "V" thing befor they foal, but have never seen it, her stomach looks different than usual. It is normally pretty round but now it she looks pretty hollow in her flanks and not as round. I dont really see a v though, under her belly still looks round. there is a defitnate dip from her ribs to her belly, also no bag what so ever. I dont know what to make of this. i will keep trying to get the pics up.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 13, 2009)

Mares do not get false pragnancies. The only way they could is if they have several disorders all at once, which is rare. The only "real" false pregnancy is when a mare looses a real pregnancy after day 40, after her endometrial cups have formed (the basis of the placenta). Once those cups form, if she aborts she will not cycle back for several months. But she will by no means act pregnant, or get fat, or bag up. To have those symptoms, and not be pregnant, she needs to have other problems coinciding with the endometrial cup formation and pregnancy loss.

The only real diagnosis is a skilled ultrasound examination.


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## Joanne (Apr 14, 2009)

IMHO If I had a mare that was that far pregnant she would not be in with a stallion.

I would remove her from the stallion until you know for sure.


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## bannerminis (Apr 14, 2009)

I have a mare that as a maiden had a filly foal then her was covered again and looked pregnant, acted pregnant, bagged up and had milk running down her legs but no baby. She went on to have 3 foals to date (all colts) and is due again next May.

My mare though when eating does a lot of belly kicking when the foal moves and interupts her eating - you should keep an eye out for that as some mares can get a little annoyed if the little one is moving around a lot.


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## sams (Apr 14, 2009)

Joanne, All of my horses go out together, two big mares, my mini mare and two mini stallions. everyone gets along fine. why should she not be with the stallion?


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## targetsmom (Apr 14, 2009)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Mares do not get false pragnancies. The only way they could is if they have several disorders all at once, which is rare. The only "real" false pregnancy is when a mare looses a real pregnancy after day 40, after her endometrial cups have formed (the basis of the placenta). Once those cups form, if she aborts she will not cycle back for several months. But she will by no means act pregnant, or get fat, or bag up. To have those symptoms, and not be pregnant, she needs to have other problems coinciding with the endometrial cup formation and pregnancy loss.


OK, I get it that mares don't have "false pregnancies" in the sense that they have to be pregnant at some point, but what WOULD you call what several of us have seen? If a mare is confirmed in foal, looks like she is pregnant, acts like she is pregnant, doesn't come in heat and bags up and makes milk and then doesn't foal, what is it?? It sure seems like "false pregnancy" is as good a term as any.

I will also add that in our case, I was concerned how this "whatever you want to call it" would resolve, and our mare came back into heat on the exact date she would have started her foal heat if she had foaled on her due date!!!


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## Katiean (Apr 14, 2009)

sams said:


> Joanne, All of my horses go out together, two big mares, my mini mare and two mini stallions. everyone gets along fine. why should she not be with the stallion?


One of the biggest reasons NOT to run the studs with the mare is you don't know breeding dates. Second reason is You don't know who's the daddy. IMO Not good horse management.


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## pepperhill (Apr 14, 2009)

Several thoughts here.

First of all, some stallions are not nice (ill-mannered) to the mares and like to chase them around whether they need to be bred or not. Usually, it is the younger stallions that haven't learned their manners yet, but some older stallions do it too. Also, there is some concern that the stallions won't accept the new baby as part of the herd, and may stomp it or bite it, especially while the mare is still trying to give birth, or is still trying to get her feet back under her shortly after giving birth.

If the mare is in with a group of other mares while foaling, it can really stress her out if the area isn't big enough for her to get away and have some privacy. The other mares get all curious and hover around and the new momma feels she has to jump up and defend her baby. If you have the space, and can pull it off, it is nicer for the foaling mare, and safer for the new babe, if you can give them some privacy. They are still going to have their baby whether there is a crowd or not, it just eliminates some of the stress and danger if you can get them alone before foaling.

Secondly, maiden mares don't always read the "rulebook". I have had two or three over the years that didn't produce a drop of milk until the babe actually hit the ground. Their belly shape and size doesn't cooperate either as they have not had those tummy muscles stretched out yet. They don't always get that nice pronounced "V" profile to show the foal has dropped. The more babies they have, the easier it is to tell what stage they are in. Your little gal may just be hiding it well. Especially if she is in good shape!

Thirdly, I had a mare that went into full blown labor once. All the signs, shaking, sweating, biting and kicking sides, rolling, huge bag dripping milk. A bad storm came in and the mare slowly settled down, and everything quit. The vet said that, to some extent, a mare can shut down her delivery if she feels the situation is dangerous, and the storm must have caused this mare to do just that. Within a week the mare's bag had dried completely up, she looked thin as can be. No sign she was ever pregnant. Vet said, must have been a false pregnancy. I put her in with a stallion to get bred back, and she was bred several times. One full month after the night she went into labor she had a beautiful little filly! Figure THAT one out!




Since then I have had my stallion (a young one) show interest in mares that go ahead and foal a week or two later. I think that maybe as their hormone levels change as they get ready to foal, the stallion senses it. Just like he does when their hormones change as they go into heat. I've never had another mare that let herself get bred just before foaling like that one did, but I have had stallions get interested. Maybe that is what your mare and stallion are doing.

Finally, in my experience, mares can have a situation that sure acts like a false pregnancy. Don't know what else to call it. When it happened to us, I had two different vets come out. In this case it was a mare that had foaled for 8 years in a row. She never came into heat after foaling one year and I decided to give her the year off. She was never near a stallion from several months before she foaled that last time, until a year later. That following spring her belly swelled up (although not as big as when she really was pregnant) and she had tons of milk. We were trying to figure out how she could have gotten bred through a fence or something. The other mare that she was pastured with foaled and she tried like crazy to steal that baby. Within a week or two of that other mare foaling, she dried up and got on with her life. A few months later, she was bred, and she had a nice little foal for us the next year. Both vets told us that this can happen in situations where you have an older mare that has had lots of babies. Her body just follows its regular pattern whether she is in foal or not. I have no idea what hormones have to be out of whack to have this happen, but clearly something was off for a year, and then, just as clearly, fixed itself the next year when she had a normal pregnancy and delivery. The vets said it is more common in older horses, so it would be unlikely that your maiden mare is going through it.

Hopefully, your little gal is just not showing all the signs like a more experienced mare would. With any luck, you will have a baby on the ground soon!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 14, 2009)

It is incredibly dangerous and very poor management to run multiple stallions with mares. That's how horses die. Stallions can live with each other... I have three in one paddock and two in another here. But throw in a mare and they will fight to the death. That's what they do in some third-world places, put two stallions in a ring with a mare in heat tied in the center... winner gets to breed the mare, looser gets carted away for the compost pile. Similar to cock fighting, except 1200lbs instead of chickens.

VERY BAD IDEA!


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## ~Dan (Apr 14, 2009)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> It is incredibly dangerous and very poor management to run multiple stallions with mares. That's how horses die. Stallions can live with each other... I have three in one paddock and two in another here. But throw in a mare and they will fight to the death. That's what they do in some third-world places, put two stallions in a ring with a mare in heat tied in the center... winner gets to breed the mare, looser gets carted away for the compost pile. Similar to cock fighting, except 1200lbs instead of chickens.
> VERY BAD IDEA!


I agree w/ Nathan, first off, I dont think you need 2 studs for mare, I would geld one or both and get the big horses out, its dangerous to begin with, especially with a mini foal to be with biggies. Best of luck


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## ~Amanda~ (Apr 14, 2009)

sams said:


> Joanne, All of my horses go out together, two big mares, my mini mare and two mini stallions. everyone gets along fine. why should she not be with the stallion?


Wow, that sounds very unsafe to me as well. For one thing, the two stallions could fight over mares in heat, or get hurt or stressed out with the big mares being in heat. Another thing is your larger mares could get covered by the mini-stallions. I _have_ heard of mares laying down to allow that to happen. Another thing is, a stallion chasing a mare or trying to breed her can cause her a lot of stress, enough that she can abort. I remember seeing something on a nature program about stallions doing that to mares in the wild if it was early enough in the season; trying to breed them so much they miscarried. And lastly, if she is pregnant and does foal, if she does it out in such a herd group, her or the foal could very easily be hurt.

Really, it sounds like you need to separate your horses for their own safety. I would hate for one of yours to get hurt.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 14, 2009)

~Amanda~ said:


> I _have_ heard of mares laying down to allow that to happen. Another thing is, a stallion chasing a mare or trying to breed her can cause her a lot of stress, enough that she can abort.


Both true! It is very easy for a mini stud to breed a full sized mare.


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## sams (Apr 15, 2009)

you guys are kind of hard on me for having all my horses together. if they didnt get along they wouldnt be together(these horses all sleep in the feild beside eachother) .they have plenty of room to have their own space (they roam 100 acres). The second stallion came only alittle while ago so there is no doubt about who daddy is. My mini mare will be seperated once she seems like she is getting close. The other stud is an old cripple so he isnt chasing or breeding anyone ( and how do you castrate a 20 year old stallion who isnt in good health to begin with), and if anyone gets out of line towards him my QH is his protector. Im not really trying to defend myself but i am not an irrisponsible horse owner!


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## Candice (Apr 15, 2009)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Mares do not get false pragnancies. The only way they could is if they have several disorders all at once, which is rare. The only "real" false pregnancy is when a mare looses a real pregnancy after day 40, after her endometrial cups have formed (the basis of the placenta). Once those cups form, if she aborts she will not cycle back for several months. But she will by no means act pregnant, or get fat, or bag up. To have those symptoms, and not be pregnant, she needs to have other problems coinciding with the endometrial cup formation and pregnancy loss.
> The only real diagnosis is a skilled ultrasound examination.



Nathan, this is extremely fascinating to me as I had a similar post last week. I have a mare that we bred last year that ultrasounded upen 20 days post breeding so I had her ultrasounded again at around 127 days and she still ultrasounded open. No heat cycles, no nothing. Now here we are and she is today 282 days and building a bag with clear mammary secretions. I cannot fathom that the vet missed a pregnancy that advance on the second ultrasound. Doc will be here tomorrow to ultrasound her and my other mares due for next year. I cannot wait to see what he finds or doesn't find, however he did say that several hormonal issues could result in what we are seeing. I am attaching a photo of her taken a few days ago.




Fake or real???

I'm not trying to hijack this post I just find this whole topic incredibly fascinating.


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## txminipinto (Apr 15, 2009)

Ok, here's my new found experience with "false" pregnancies or what ever you want to call them. I have right now a mare that is supposed to be at 351 days. Looks, acts, and behaves pregnant. Even has milk, but no bag. Just had her palpated and ultrasound - OPEN. Vet told me to breed her today as she has a huge follicle and recheck her in 14-21 days. She wouldn't call it a false pregnancy either, but that's what it has to be. At least in appearance.


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## kaykay (Apr 15, 2009)

I had one too years ago some of you may remember when patches was thought in foal. And yep she made half a bag etc went the whole nine yards. (she was a maiden mare never bred before)

She did not have any health problems and went on last year to have Dale and is now due to foal again in a few weeks.

I guess Patches forgot to read the books that mares cant have a false pregnancy LOL. Lewella from here came and saw her at the time and most definitely thought she was in foal. You could express yellow sticky "milk" from her udder just like a mare a few weeks before foaling.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Apr 15, 2009)

Mares that have had foals (and some that haven't) will have a milk-like substance in their udder. If your mare doesn't mind, you can generally collect some fluid any time. This is very normal.

There are also many reasons why mares may not appear to cycle. The only way to figure out why is to have a full reproductive exam. It is not uncommon at all to have a mare that never shows heat, but is perfectly breedable using AI.


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## txminipinto (Apr 15, 2009)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Mares that have had foals (and some that haven't) will have a milk-like substance in their udder. If your mare doesn't mind, you can generally collect some fluid any time. This is very normal.
> There are also many reasons why mares may not appear to cycle. The only way to figure out why is to have a full reproductive exam. It is not uncommon at all to have a mare that never shows heat, but is perfectly breedable using AI.


Nathan, I don't know why the thought of a mare possibly having a "false" pregnancy is impossible in veterinary medicine. However, I know milk when I see it and this was milk. Not clear, cloudy white, and copious amount of it. I know my mare, and I know I saw the signs that indicated she was pregnant. At no other time does her vulva, lengthen except when she's preparing to foal. It may not be an accepted condition in veterinary medicine, but I firmly believe that either my vet is wrong and she's pregnant or she's had a false pregnancy. I'm sure there's plenty of research left to be done that may change professionals minds on the topic. Regardless of what some book says.....


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## ~Amanda~ (Apr 15, 2009)

sams said:


> you guys are kind of hard on me for having all my horses together. if they didnt get along they wouldnt be together(these horses all sleep in the feild beside eachother) .they have plenty of room to have their own space (they roam 100 acres). The second stallion came only alittle while ago so there is no doubt about who daddy is. My mini mare will be seperated once she seems like she is getting close. The other stud is an old cripple so he isnt chasing or breeding anyone ( and how do you castrate a 20 year old stallion who isnt in good health to begin with), and if anyone gets out of line towards him my QH is his protector. Im not really trying to defend myself but i am not an irrisponsible horse owner!


All it takes it one quick fight for someone to get hurt, especially a Mini with the big horses.




Their heads are just at kicking level. 

We're not concerned with who the sire of the foal is, so much as for the health of your horses. And just because a stallion is older and cannot move around so well does not mean he won't try, causing himself and the mares undue stress.





Depending on the horses to just get along, even with a lot of room, is not a good idea. I am sure you want to do what is best for your horses, but running them all together, especially two stallions, two large mares, and one possibly pregnant mini is _not_ safe. It is the same as running horses in barbed wire. It might have worked fine for ten years, but you could still come out any day and find one of your horses nearly skinned alive for being tangled in it. In my opinion, its just not worth the risk.


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