# "R" National Disquailifications



## humhill1 (Nov 18, 2008)

Has anyone heard about some horses being disquailified AFTER the "R" Nationals ended ?? And that AMHR was not going to redistribute the placings, money or ribbons ?? Never know what's gossip and what's not !!


----------



## bingo (Nov 18, 2008)

I did hear something about some horses having placings taken away. I do not know about the rest of the horses moving up though.


----------



## LisaB Ozark (Nov 18, 2008)

There were horses disqualified from futurity. In the futurity classes the correct monies were given but the ribbons are not exchanged out. I do not know about the rest of the classes.

Lisa


----------



## sdmini (Nov 18, 2008)

I heard several horses that placed or won at National were not qualified to be there. The association is going to pull titles/placing on those horses.


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

I've heard there are a few horses that were not qualified to show at Nationals. If this is true, than their titles should be stripped from them! PERIOD. And the person(s) involved should be fined and/or banned for a certain period of time. Along with having their name(s) published in The Journal.

It is clearly stated in the rule book what it takes to qualify a horse to be shown at Nationals, claiming ignorance doesn't get you out of trouble in the real world, it shouldn't within ASPC/AMHR.


----------



## Becky (Nov 18, 2008)

Oh my! I just don't understand why some people seem to think they need to cheat to win!






Wouldn't/shouldn't AMHR check the qualifications on entries _*before*_ the show?


----------



## Birdmomjb (Nov 18, 2008)

I got wind of this while in Branson for the convention.

The story was that this was a big name trainer and that he was fined. If its true his clients will take care of any futher punishment. I know that I had been paying to have my horses shown and lost a National placing I would be beond mad.

I myself got a call from the home office about 2 weeks after Nationals telling me that I had shown 2 horses that were not qualified. I gave them the names of the shows for those 2 and all was well. I agree that shoud have been checked before not after. But I know that that is a huge job.

Jan


----------



## gvpalominominis (Nov 18, 2008)

I agree with the statement that it is AMHR's RESPONSIBILITY to verify qualifications of entries 'before' the show, whether its a big job or not... they have a database don't they? If you are an organization and you require certain rules, you must be prepared to enforce those rules. This is not to say that it is not also the responsibility of the entrant to provide correct and accurate information to the best of their knowledge and capability. Apparently, they had the time to find the errors afterward... why didn't they perform this exam before to prevent it from happening in the first place? People sometimes make mistakes and new entrants may not understand the requirements and sometimes need guidance. Haven't you ever accidently walked into or entered the wrong class on an entry form? Were you trying to cheat? I'm far from perfect... I have!

Why do we always have to jump to the conclusion that any exhibitor is trying to cheat on purpose! (I'm not saying some people don't cheat on purpose... but I think its wrong to convict them before facts are known.) Its a sad note that the human race in general will eagerly believe the worst in and about others first before the truth is revealed. That's why tabloids like the Enquirer and Star etc. are top sellers and are still even in exsistence! People THRIVE on the drama!

For me, I think I'll just believe that there were some errors and possible discrepancies that need to be corrected on some of entry forms and may indicate some corrections in the placings.

Ok.. Stepping down...


----------



## Leeana (Nov 18, 2008)

I think its best to let the BOD deal with this instead of spreading rumors and gossip, even if we all will know eventually who these trainers are (i only know of the one, didnt know there was another) as i believe these will go into the Journal possibly, but i feel very strongly about my first statement. What happened was wrong and should be handled by the BOD and registry.


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

Conventry Lane...that is interesting that a person took a horse to Nationals with the wrong set of papers and only got a fine. The last time a person did that, he was suspended for 5 years and issued a $5,000.00 fine.

And as far as these being first time exhibitors, the one person is NOT. He is a trainer and a judge. He of all people should know the rules. And AMHR has had these requirements in place for how many years? If in doubt, read your rule book. If still in doubt, call the home office!


----------



## txminipinto (Nov 18, 2008)

I'm going to urge everyone to lay off this topic. It HAS been handled by the office. Nothing good will come from this hear say and gossip.


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

So Karen, you're saying we don't have a right to know or discuss this?

It's our club, don't we have the right to know how it was handled?


----------



## KMA FARM (Nov 18, 2008)

Hello,

I have posted only once, this makes the second time, with this group. The first time, you made me feel like a complete idiot for asking a question I thought someone could help with me with. When I first got into the showing of miniatures was around 2001 and we called ourselves the clueless group. I am sure the ones of you that met us, knew we were truthful and looking for guidance and trying to learn all your rules and regulations in a short period of time. For others, I am sure you thought " easy pickins. Well I sure have learned a lot from all of you over my short 7 years of showing, and ya'll know where you fit in.

Nationals 2007 was not fair for some amateur exhibitors, a protest was filed with i's dotted, t's crossed.

A professional trainer showed against some real amateurs and got a slap on the hand, did not follow the instructions given and was allowed to continue showing, no name in the journal either. I guess it just depends who is on the board and the individual involved.

With Thanksgiving coming I wish all of you would count your many blessings. I was blessed to have known some individuals who gave their time, experience, heart and soul to the AMHR and was not paid a dime to do it.

May all of you experience the same blessings I have, and enjoy the show.

KOCH'S MINI ACRES

AKA KMA FARM

Lonna Anderson Stramka


----------



## txminipinto (Nov 18, 2008)

Irish Hills Farm said:


> So Karen, you're saying we don't have a right to know or discuss this? It's our club, don't we have the right to know how it was handled?


Yes, that's what I'm saying. Why must we lench mob everyone? The situation has been handled and the appropiate legal actions have been taken. Do you really want to hang these individuals out for public humiliation? Because that's what you're doing. Do you think this board is private, that only those who've logged in can read? Many people who never post, who are influential in this industry, read this board and others. And what they read reflects back on those who've posted. This is an extremely touchy and embarassing situation.....how would you like it if your dirty laundry was aired here for all to read?


----------



## funnybunny (Nov 18, 2008)

I do not think it is the responsibility of the AMHR to check qualifications before the show since the information clearly states the horse must be qualified in order to enter. Horses must also have Coggins test results and a Health Certificate to show in the event. Should the AMHR have to verify that the Coggins test was correct by checking with the veterinary laboratories or veterianary practices? I believe exhibitors and trainers should bear the responsibility of making sure the horses are qualified, just as the exhibitors and trainers are responsible for getting Health Certificates and Coggins test results.

If I had a horse with a trainer which was stripped of awards, I'd also be red hot about it.

On the other hand, if the trainer picked up the horse from a farm to show at Nationals and the owner said it was already qualified, it would not necessarily be the trainers fault. Of course, you'd think a professional trainer would go to the trouble to check on that.

Since a trainer is supposed to be a "professional" in this, I would think the BOD would be remiss if just a fine was given. Behavior such as that should be strongly discouraged and a suspension would be in order. IMHO. A fine doesn't deter behavior like a suspension would.

Of course, in the politics of horse shows, sometimes it is WHO it is, not WHAT the offense is.

In the horse business, some people are banned for life while others who do the same thing just get a slap on the wrist.

I've got my asbestos flame suit on....


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

txminipinto said:


> Irish Hills Farm said:
> 
> 
> > So Karen, you're saying we don't have a right to know or discuss this? It's our club, don't we have the right to know how it was handled?
> ...


Wow how self-righteous of you.

So, any dirty laundry that happens within AMHR/ASPC should be kept quite and we all should go on our way with smiles on our faces like nothing happened. Okay.

I guess we all should just throw the rule book out the window and do whatever we please because it will never been talked about publicly. Or should NOT be according to you.


----------



## Belinda (Nov 18, 2008)

I would like to add my two cents for they are worth !! And one is from my seat as Director !! As for the horses that were not qualified they have been dealt with and it was just as far as I know 4 horses.. They have lost their awards ( and the horses behind them will be moved up.) and were fined per horse and it was a good amount. As to who has to pay it I guess that is between owner and trainer !! The person making entries is the one fined.. as far as I understand..

As to why this was not caught before Nationals , there are sometimes mistakes as we are all human when you are processing 1600 horses and thousands of entries... It was sure not on purpose.. But this has been dealt with .

I know nothing about entering horse on wrong papers ?? I think some other situations might have gotten tangled up in this that had NOTHING what so ever to do with showing.. and that is how the rumor mill works things get messed up and NOT told the right way..

And as for the person showing Amateur she was dealt with , and it was more than just a slap on the hand.. And I doubt she will show Amateur for sometime...

I also hope everyone enjoys the Holidays and their families


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

funnybunny said:


> I do not think it is the responsibility of the AMHR to check qualifications before the show since the information clearly states the horse must be qualified in order to enter. Horses must also have Coggins test results and a Health Certificate to show in the event. Should the AMHR have to verify that the Coggins test was correct by checking with the veterinary laboratories or veterianary practices? I believe exhibitors and trainers should bear the responsibility of making sure the horses are qualified, just as the exhibitors and trainers are responsible for getting Health Certificates and Coggins test results.
> If I had a horse with a trainer which was stripped of awards, I'd also be red hot about it.
> 
> On the other hand, if the trainer picked up the horse from a farm to show at Nationals and the owner said it was already qualified, it would not necessarily be the trainers fault. Of course, you'd think a professional trainer would go to the trouble to check on that.
> ...


Funnybunny.



I couldn't agree with you more.

And thank you Belinda for posting on this topic!


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Nov 18, 2008)

txminipinto said:


> Irish Hills Farm said:
> 
> 
> > So Karen, you're saying we don't have a right to know or discuss this? It's our club, don't we have the right to know how it was handled?
> ...


Carin,

I generally agree with most things you say and do.



But this time, I personally think you're wrong about this. We do have a right to discuss this whether it be on this forum, over the phone, in person, at convention, whatever. Sadly, with the way some things are handled within BOTH registries, many people who violate the rules are not subject to the discipline outlined in the rules, but instead are told quietly to stop. Well, as a paying member, I want to know about these things because it may directly impact a decision I make regarding my horses in the future.

I was not aware of this situation until it came up here. Can I probably guess who is involved? Yep! But I'll reserve that until I know more. Now...will I know more? Will this information be given to me by the registry? Hmmm.


----------



## txminipinto (Nov 18, 2008)

Self-righteous? Hmm, that's a new one. No, I just prefer not to drag other trainers, breeders, owners, and exhibitors through the mud. I only hope that those who are doing the dragging are never on the other end of the rope. But as Belinda posted, it's been handled.


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

txminipinto said:


> Self-righteous? Hmm, that's a new one. No, I just prefer not to drag other trainers, breeders, owners, and exhibitors through the mud. I only hope that those who are doing the dragging are never on the other end of the rope. But as Belinda posted, it's been handled.


Than perhaps you should just stop reading and posting on this thread.


----------



## gvpalominominis (Nov 18, 2008)

Come on you guys... each of you have provided very good information at some point on this forum. Its okay to disagree with each other, as each person has the right to share their opinions. That's how we learn.

You read how I stand... basically everyone should be innocent until proven guilty. If you weren't aware... or in agreement with it or not... public humiliation has been considered one of the best ways of disclipline since the beginning of time. If there is no consequence for ones actions, one may continue to pursue those actions.

I don't believe wrong doers deserve to be continually drug through the mud, but IMO and as part of the membership, we do have the right to know who has been dishonest among us (professional trainer or not) and what their disciplinary action entailed... by doing so, it also then eliminates the opportunity for continued rumors and heresay because the truth has been presented. Personally... I have no clue who or what horses were involved.

Call me self-righteous too if you wish... but I actually feel pretty humbled and grateful for what I do have.

The AMHR is continually growing and with that demands a continued growth of responsibility..... there's no more "like the good 'ole days" we hear about in running the ship. The flood gates are open my friends.


----------



## Belinda (Nov 18, 2008)

twelveoaks said:


> if the amhr would put the minutes on the web site of the convention and let all the members know what happen that would sure help and end the rumors and gossip


Hello,

Actually the minutes are put on the website.. But Disciplinary actions are taken in *CLOSED SESSION * So It is sure not our place to post that information . But as soon as the minutes to the rest of the board meeting are approved they will be on the website !!!


----------



## Lmequine (Nov 18, 2008)

Thanks Belinda! I was in the process of typing the same thing about the minutes and the closed session. Glad that you beat me to it!


----------



## LaVern (Nov 18, 2008)

When do they approve the minutes?


----------



## gvpalominominis (Nov 18, 2008)

Do I read that right Belinda, that after the member's actions and disciplinary actions are discussed behind closed doors (which I agree is politically correct) and then the disciplinary actions, if any, are posted along with the approved minutes?

I agree, it would be unfair to discuss or post any 'accusations' publicly.


----------



## Boinky (Nov 18, 2008)

I guess to me it's not nessasarily important WHO was the cheater..as HOW they were diciplined. i want to know what actions were taken against this/these individual(s) and i want to know if they were fined How much ect. I think that these are things that need to be made public because how does it stop anyone else from cheating if it's not made known what truly happens if you cheat.

Seems so not long ago there was someone on the board complaining about buying a horse that was SUPPOSED to be registered to only find out that the pervious owner had been suspended and all the papers were put on hold until his suspention was up and a "fine" was paid. sorry but to me it sounds very easy to scam people into buying horse sin this situation because it was never made public...how is the buyer supposed to know this person was banned?? i think AMHR needs to step up and make it known when rules are violated and fines/suspentions ect are imposed... You can bet most people would never want to do something wrong again if it was made public..thats worse than taking a financial fine!

I personally think all disciplinary actions should be listed in the journal....but that's just my thought.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Nov 18, 2008)

Boinky said:


> I guess to me it's not nessasarily important WHO was the cheater..as HOW they were diciplined.


That's a very good point. I work for an investment firm. We are bound by many, many regulations including all the rules set forth by the SEC. When one of our investment representatives (or their assistants or home office people like myself) do something that violates a rule, we don't necessarily know WHO is was but we sure learn HOW it was handled. We get a report every month that states what was done and what the outcome of the investigation was, including disciplinary actions. Those may be fines, written warnings or termination. I think it deters others (some others) from doing some of the misdeeds to see what happened to those that tried it before them.


----------



## sharpllook (Nov 18, 2008)

I find it funny how we all can name names when it is "common" folk.

I recall calling "one" of these persons for a club member wrongfully disiplined through AMHR.

Sure hope this "person" can handle the name in the Joural.


----------



## Sandee (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't know that we need names but certainly the "problem" and the action taken should be made public. The best reason would be to deter it happening again. Sometimes knowing that action is taken and what it costs is the biggest reason for the problem to NOT be repeated.

If it's just a slap on wrist, as some think, then it shows "we" as a club do not take infractions serious. If it's a "big deal" then everyone knows what a chance they take by not knowing or following the rules.


----------



## gvpalominominis (Nov 18, 2008)

*IMO* anyone calling and advertising themselves as a "Professional" of whatever they're doing and charging and collecting money (or not) from the public to do a job or service, they have a certain political or professional responsibility and duty to that public for their actions. Just as elected officials also have that duty. Be it a sports figure, politician, dog trainer, horse handler, or organizational club official. In other words... you put yourself out there for public display, criticism and review if you take on those titles or positions....you are automatically IN the public eye.

My point being, that if you fall in that category and do something illegal or against the rules and are found guilty as charged, the public has the right to know that about you too. Not just what job you do professionally... but HOW you do that job and if you deserve the public trust.

But in return it is also IMO that if that person pays their dues and serves the punishment handed upon them... even though they'll have some trust to rebuild, they shouldn't be condemned forever.... because as humans, we aren't perfect and we do make mistakes and make the wrong choices sometimes.... but if you do it again... you're outta here....

Seriously, I just believe that if you belong to an organization such as AMHR or others... that that is a privilige, not a right... no matter who you are or how long you've been there.

Not sure why I felt I needed to share so much on here today other than I have been waiting on hold to talk with mortgage companies here in my office most of the day. But one of my goals for '09 is to try and be more involved.... I mean, with the organizations I belong to.


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

Awww....yes "Self Righteous". Give it a break already. Where is the rolling of the eyes guy?

You at least come on here make good points than blow it by your childish behavior with the oh my I'm being self righteous. Perhaps I should post the definition to clear the confusion.

Edited to add the definition of self righteous.

self righteous

One entry found.

Sponsored LinksRighteousness Definition

What Is Righteousness? Find Out w/the Dictionary Toolbar

Dictionary.alottoolbars.com

Main Entry: self–righ·teous

Pronunciation: \-ˈrī-chəs\

Function: adjective

Date: circa 1680

: convinced of one's own righteousness especially in contrast with the actions and beliefs of others : *narrow-mindedly moralistic *

There I bolded the one that I was referring too. Help any?


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

*YAWN*





While you do bring some good points to the table, at least you brought some, your childish behavior with the constant self righteous jabs, just makes your post useless and not worth reading anymore.


----------



## bingo (Nov 18, 2008)

txminipinto said:


> Irish Hills Farm said:
> 
> 
> > So Karen, you're saying we don't have a right to know or discuss this? It's our club, don't we have the right to know how it was handled?
> ...


Well Carin it is your choice to discuss or not to discuss however it is something that relates to everyone who shows at the National level. It should have affected several placings and it is part of the goings on in our registry.

Be quiet due to it being a professional? Come on now if it was a nobody then you can bet it would be more then ok.

That said I have always respected and continue to respect this trainer and the ability to do the job of presenting and training horses. One incident does not change that. I do not have to respect what was done at this particular show.


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

Had the violator been the average person and not a trainer, the average person probably would've been racked over the coals and made an example out of.


----------



## picasso (Nov 18, 2008)

Does anyone know what classes the placings could be changed in, due to this?


----------



## Charley (Nov 18, 2008)

It is human nature to talk about things like this. I heard about it from a friend this past weekend. And no, I wouldn't repeat it nor would I post about it. Not because of who was involved but because I don't choose to gossip. It is hurtful no matter who you are...and after all, we don't really know the full story from gossip...we just think we do.


----------



## Belinda (Nov 18, 2008)

Irish Hills Farm said:


> Had the violator been the average person and not a trainer, the average person probably would've been racked over the coals and made an example out of.


Ok , Sheryl now now !!





Actually there was someone who was NOT a trainer who got the same fines and lost their awards.. !!! The Punshiment HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH BEING A TRAINER OR NOT !!!

The Fine for all those that are all so curious was $500 per horse .. So now maybe we can put this subject to rest..


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

Ok B



I take it back.


----------



## ruffian (Nov 18, 2008)

"The Fine for all those that are all so curious was $500 per horse .. So now maybe we can put this subject to rest"

Here's my 2 cents . . . The fine is, well, fine, but what about being suspended or not being allowed to show? That's going to have a larger, more substantial impact. Suppose a trainer has a horse in his care for 6 months. That's somewhere around $3,000 - 5,000 plus additional expenses for transport, etc. What's $500 bucks??

If it's a professional miniature horse trainer or common folk like myself that knowingly and intentionally DID NOT QUALIFY a horse properly they should be suspended. Period. Then you can bet that people will make sure that their horses are qualified according to the rules.

A friend of mine spent more than that to bring a horse up from Texas that was supposed to be qualified by a pro trainer and had to get it qualified herself.

Another friend qualified a horse they had just purchased, and hardshipped him into the AMHR, only to find out that they missed the registration deadline by 3 days. They didn't try to slide him in.

The rules are the rules.


----------



## hunterridgefarm (Nov 18, 2008)

Normally I don't reply to post, but this time I will.

We as members of the ASPC/AMHR elect our Board of Directors. We elect these fine people to repesent the club and it's members. The Directors have to deal with a lot of situations and problems. We may not always agree with their decisions, but that's why we elected them. Instead of bashing the Directors for their decisions, we should support them. Personally, I think the Directors do an exellent job.

The ASPC/AMHR is a family oriented organization, which I'm prowd to be a long time member. I don't feel like the Directors show favoritism to trainers or anyone else as far as that goes. I feel their decisions are based on their investigations. I don't agree with bashing the Directors or fellow members when you don't agree with a decision.

You may bash me for my opinion, but that's ok. I'm a country boy with broad shoulders, I can carry the load. Now I've got to get off my soap box and


----------



## Irish Hills Farm (Nov 18, 2008)

I don't recall anyone bashing any director. That was not what this thread was about, nor became about IMO.

I feel that we, the general membership, have a right to know if a rule was broken, what consequences the offender received, etc. If we feel that the punishment was nothing more than a slap on the wrist, we have a right to state that. I think a lot of people are wondering, how is this punishment going to encourage people to not do the same? I mean $500 per horse, that really isn't all that much when you think of the expenses one pays to get a horse ready for show, show entry fees, gas, motel expenses, etc.

Again, this wasn't a newbie, this was someone who has been showing at Nationals for years. A newbie I could understand not knowing but again, that is why we have a rule book filled with rules that are suppose to be followed.......


----------



## Mona (Nov 18, 2008)

*hunterridge*, I strongly agree with *Irish Hills Farm* in that people posting here are not _bashing_ the directors of AMHR for how things were handled in this case, but are merely upset (for the most part) on how things are taken care of when such a thing happens. It is their right, as members of the AMHR to voice their concerns, publicly or otherwise.


----------



## blueprintminis (Nov 18, 2008)

"I feel that we, the general membership, have a right to know if a rule was broken, what consequences the offender received, etc."

I am licensed by the State of Ohio Counselor and Social Worker board and twice a year every licensee receives a newsletter. Part of that newletter is "Disciplinary Action" taken in the prior 6 months against any licensee. The "offender" is listed by name, profession, and city. What they did and which "rule" was violated is printed and what their punishment was, which ranges from having to take an ethics course all the way up to permanent license revocation. Believe me, yes! this is public humiliation and boy is it a super motivator to KNOW the rules and regs and to BE SURE TO NEVER violate one of them! I don't know why the same thing should not apply here. I certainly would want to know if a trainer that I may be thinking of putting my horses with has a history of rule violations, whether or not the violations were on purpose or by accident. I may not want to deal with this person either way. Just my personal opinion.


----------



## ruffian (Nov 18, 2008)

How are the new placings going to be announced? Will the owner's be contacted or will the website just be updated?

I agree with Blueprintminis, our local paper has court news every day that gives name, what they did, and their sentence. It's a great deterrent. The same should be done here (in the Journal).


----------



## LaVern (Nov 18, 2008)

Man, What if there was a third place horse that could have been up there getting their picture taken and could have been advertized in our December National Journal issue as a Reserve Champion. Or heaven forbid what if a Grand or Reserve Grand was stolen from someone. Can a fine of 500.00 compensate those people. I hope this hasn't happened.


----------



## sharpllook (Nov 18, 2008)

WHAT still NO NAMES........... oh oh stir the pot stir the pot............

Just wait til you hear the NAMES...... and dont say it dont matter......

Who Who????


----------



## LaVern (Nov 18, 2008)

I didn't mean to stir the pot, I just feel so sad. I just love the Nationals so much.


----------



## Littleum (Nov 19, 2008)

So why is it always these things are done so hush hush?

Why isn't the membership allowed to know what other members have been taken to task- AND what punishments were meted out?

Seriously, answer me that. DIRECTLY. And don't give me some song and dance about "well, we can't publish all the facts" or "you weren't in the session" or "we don't want people jumping to conclusions" or "we don't want to burn people at the stake"

Multiple trainers had multiple horses disqualified and placings were redistributed. I think that's all the relevant information, isn't it? I think I can decide for myself if it was intentional or just a clerical error on the part of the trainer.

It's been like this for 20 freaking years in BOTH associations. Unless you're "in the know" you'd think neither association ever had anything bad go on, ever, and it's all sunshine and butterfly farts. What a load of BS that is.

Call me when there's a little less "good ol' boys club" and a little more transparency- I'll pick up my memberships again.


----------



## littlearab (Nov 19, 2008)

I think they should be subspended for 5 years.... or until ??? JUst like I was.

We all know a fine of $500 or even $5000 is no big deal to them. They will just pass it off to the next person they train or show for.

Get real... people..

We will see how fair the BOD really are.. show me there is no ol-boys club.

If I was subspended for sending in paperwork on a purchused bred mare, they should be for showing horses they knew full well did not belong there.

I can tell you why they do it behind closed doors, because it an ol-boys club.

In my case they will not even tell me, what happened behind that door.... they will not tell me what they said about me or what others said about me. To this day I do not know.

I did nothing wrong... the only mistake I made was think they would be fair. Fair has nothing to do with it. It who you are and who you know...

It so much easier to hang the little guy.

Tamara Keller


----------



## hunterridgefarm (Nov 19, 2008)

I am going to say this last night my husband posted on here and have every right to do so. What I am about to say I know that I will get blasted ,but like him I can take it.

The person that is a trainer and a judge made a honest mistake that was found when several show manger went though there paper work and found the horses that was in question. also my husband keeps all of his stuff from where he has measured.which he found the horses too. So i don't think that this was done on purpose. They go to a lot of shows in there show season so please don't tell me that a mistake cant be made. we are all humans out here. I know I have made my fair share of them. who else has .as the old saying is don't throw rocks at a glass house if you have ghost in your closet. I really think that this needs to be left alone. The trainer that a lot of people are b#$CHING about is a darn good trainer. and yes i would put a horses with him. and more then likely it will be done this year.

"I'm going to urge everyone to lay off this topic. It HAS been handled by the office. Nothing good will come from this hear say and gossip."

--------------------

Carin Ponder, RVT

Iola, TX

Carin, I could not agree with you more on this.

"There was 2 different well known trainers involved with having horses not qualified and one of the same two trainers had the incorrect registration that did not match up with the horse entered at Nationals and they were to get fines and placings taken away is what we heard from some reliable people that were at Convention." this is a post from Coventry Lane Farm. I will tell you this that Jeanne, Lea or Robby DID NOT LET A HORSE GO THOUGH WITH WRONG PAPERS. AND HOW DO I KNOW THIS BECAUSE I WAS AT THE TABLE WITH THEM IF THEY DID NOT HAVE THE PAPER WORK RIGHT THEY WAS TOLD TO GO GET THE RIGHT PAPER WORK AND COME BACK. SO DO NOT SAY THIS ABOUT THEM. THEY ALSO SENT HORSES WAY THAT DID NOT MEASURE IN. TRUST ME WHEN I SAY THIS THEY CHECK THE HORSE AND ITS PAPER TO MAKE SURE THEY MATCH SO PLEASE DONT HAND ME THIS.

I am like Carin on this one. you all need to lay off this topic. it has been handle by the BOD noithing good will come out of this if it is not stop.

diane


----------



## Minimor (Nov 19, 2008)

It's good to know that fines were given out.

I can see making a mistake on a class entry--easy to write down a wrong number--but it's not so easy to see how a wrong show can be entered. I thought anyone with multiple horses would keep track of what horses were qualified where, and that owners would know their horses didn't go to enough shows. It's a foolish mistake--worse than most--and I do agree that it's unfortunate if some other horses were done out of top placings because of it. These things happen, though, and hopefully the fines will make people take a little more care when they are making entries and getting horses qualified.


----------



## sharpllook (Nov 19, 2008)

Lets go from a different angle........... What "if" you were the person that DID qualify for the Nationals. Did go with the intention of "fair" play. Only to come out with what you thought was the correct placing for the class YOU WERE QUALIFIED in.

Now we all are human. Humans tend to thrive on good luck...... correct? SO................. if those horses and handlers would NOT have been in the class MAYBE your horse would of been placed differently AT THE TIME, not "slid" up flippen close to 3 months later.

So.... in reality......... 3 judges using a NON Qualified HORSE at the National Show affects ALL horses entered. So "these" NON Qualified horses affected MY horses and my pocketbook.

Its Nationals, get it right or be smart enough to not let it to the membership. DUH.

Thoughts to ponder......... 1600 horses at National......... Kind of affected all of us.........


----------



## Echo Acres (Nov 19, 2008)

Boy do I have some strong feelings about this, but I will hold back. First if facts are stated, I don't feel it is gossip. So people should really make sure they have facts before posting. Also I feel strongly that these persons names should be posted in the journal for all to see. Mistake or not they are professionals and it is their job to follow the rules. If I was a potential client I would like to know if that trainer does his job or not. Not to just condition my horse and show it, but know and abide by the rules 100%. Like others have said everything else is posted in the papers, tickets, fines, banqruptcy, etc. Most of it is for public knowledge and some is for all to see. This usually has more of an impact than having someone pay money and go on their way.

Lavern, you mentioned a very good point about a grand or reserve missing out on their spotlight time. Also what about the person who didn't get a ribbon? The one who should have had 10th place. To some it might just be tenth place, but I know in some of those big classes I would be very happy with that.

Yes it would be nice if the office could verify this before the show, but I am not going to bash them. This was a big event, they were very busy and mistakes can be made. I know all of us has made at least one at our jobs. It would be nice if the system could handle data like this and make a printout so they could just verify with that. Not sure if that is possible.


----------



## JourneysEnd (Nov 19, 2008)

Okay, I'm not "in the know" on this, but I trust Carin.

Why don't we wait for ALL the facts before we publicly flog these people





Tamera, I know you got the short end of the stick and wish we had known when it happened, we would have supported you and protested to the board.


----------



## funnybunny (Nov 19, 2008)

I agree with Irish Hills, sharpllook, Echoacres and others. I'm not flogging anybody. I'm just trying to understand what is going on here. I'm a member and I feel I have a right to know what is going on.

I'm just saying, Yes, mistakes happen, and consequences follow mistakes. This is supposed to be a "professional" trainer. I don't know which one y'all are talking about, but nevertheless, this is a serious matter that can affect us all. Someone even said that this trainer is also a judge. That doesn't give me a lot of confidence!

I agree that, in Clubs, it is frequently WHO you are and if it had been a "little person" the consequences might have been much greater. BUT rules were written to provide "fairness" and equality to the general membership.

Does anyone know if this particular trainer has made other "mistakes" in the past, or is the trainer's record perfectly clean? If this person has always demonstrated good judgment, ethics and honesty in the past, that would make a difference to me as far as how I comprehend the situation.

That also would have made a difference to the BOD, it would seem.


----------



## Boinky (Nov 19, 2008)

> Why don't we wait for ALL the facts before we publicly flog these people unsure.gif


I think the reason people are upset is because it is sounding like we will NEVER KNOW the facts... the BOD, it sounds, has decided to keep this a closed issue. It's not right..and it's not fair to anyone involved (which is a whole lot of people..anyone involved in nationals and the process and finances it takes to get there.. ). sorry but i have to say i get rather defensive and suspicius when I hear "lets just let it drop... nothing good will come of it" ect ect. sounds t me like a hush hush cover up. Of course somethng good would come of it.. other people would be less likely to make the same "mistake" (true mistake or not) I personally don't have faith in our governmental legal system and i'm somewhat questioning our AMHR legal system when it's members are not involved. I'm hoping they are truly doing whats best for our club but how do we know if they wont share information?

Now i've hear through the gossip mill who this person is...i'm pretty sure it was factual as to who this peson was..and let me say it's not a suprrise at all.this person has been surrounded by controversy in the last few years in both AMHA and AMHR...... To me..what the heck is another slap on the wrist to a person that blatantly breaks the rules and gets away with it every time? This may or may not have been an accident..i relise things happen and accidents are made but i still firmly beleive that any disciplinary actions should be made public.


----------



## HGFarm (Nov 19, 2008)

According to Parliamentary Procedure, which everyone abides by, some things are required to be done behind closed doors, to avoid possible embarrassment, false accusations, personal information and a possible lawsuit by those being 'accused', for publicly releasing info that should not be.

I agree, the registry IS handling it, and sounds like in the manner according to the rules. I don't see that it is being done 'secretly' or anything else, if it was discussed in the meeting, it will be in the minutes, again according to Parliamentary Procedure. So everyone whip out your Robert's Rules of Order and study up....

By laws and constitutions of organizations are usually made to not conflict with Roberts Rules, as anything not covered in By Laws, etc.. is then governed under Roberts Rules... It then goes to State Statutes, etc....

I would hesitate to make an opinion or assume what actually happened until I had real facts to go by... otherwise it seems quite a waste of energy.


----------



## Boinky (Nov 19, 2008)

if they are proceeding according to the rules i have no problem with that. HOWEVER i still firmly believe the issue needs to be made public..even if they dont' name names they need to tell what happend, the ruling, and whatever disciplinary measures were taken. they also need to make know publicly which placings at nationals were changed and who was bumped up ect. I don't know the facts but my guess is there was less "mistake" involved than some people would like to make everyone believe because i've seen this person surrounded by controversy and problems....


----------



## gvpalominominis (Nov 19, 2008)

First let me say that my comments are NOT meant as a bash against trainers… they are needed in our industry… and I have some good friends who are trainers…. luv ya : )

There have been some very valid points brought up from different points of view. I think a big reason I’m finding some of this offensive is that I’m being told I don’t have the right or need to know something that happened at “OUR” club’s National Show that warranted special sessions, reprimands and fines. But I stand with my statement that ESPECIALLY if you are a ‘Professional’ you have a duty to be accounted for. I still don’t even know WHO you are talking about, but observed it’s a ‘he’, so if ‘he’ is smart… he’d ward all this off with a public statement apologizing for his mistake to whomever it affected and what he’s going to do to assure it won’t happen again since it was not intentional…. done… nothing more to gossip about and handled like a true ‘professional’.

Don’t be naïve’…heck… even our local clubs trainer members are given ‘special’ consideration…and behavior overlooked sometimes as to not want to rock their boat… because they feel they are the ones that bring in the revenue for the club and they don’t want to lose that revenue! True story! I am also NOT saying that trainers don’t contribute time and well needed input to the clubs. There have been posts on this very forum by well known, long time members that ‘trainers’ deserve the ‘second’ look in the show ring, that they deserve it because of all that time and money they put into it.. .. WHAT?? Try to tell my husband that at tax time when I’ve spent over $40k!!!! Most exhibitors simply just want a fair and impartial playing field in the ring!

Regarding THIS particular issue… if AMHR is handling it via proper protocol and that if it is true that if or since it was found to be true that it will be posted and available to the membership on the club website… I also feel that should satisfy those that feel we would like or have the right to know. To say we deserve the information prior to that point, if that is the case…then that would also be improper protocol. If it says in our Official Rules that ALL discipline is ‘closed doors’… then I guess for those who disagree, they need to initiate the steps to try and change it if desired.

Here’s what I found under Disciplinary Actions in the Rules -

D. In connection with any disciplinary proceedings, the decision of the Board of Directors may be published in _The Journal_.

The word ‘may’ gives the ‘option’ to do that event, not necessarily the requirement to do so.


----------

