# Does The Minimum Wage Hurt Workers?



## Jill (Jul 11, 2012)

At first glance, it's easy to think minimum wage laws are a good thing. However, I think they do more harm than good and wanted to share this video. It explains what happens very well, and is entertaining as well as informative.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ct1Moeaa-W8


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## Shari (Jul 11, 2012)

I can't watch the Video because I am on HughesNet.

But yes, Min Wage hurts adults specially ones with family.

You know why my family is over this way... the big companies in the NW either out sources jobs to Asia and what jobs they had for Engineers went poof in 08! They laid 99% of them off but wanted to hire them back from Min Wage to $17.00 and hour. No adult with a family can live on that.... even in NW Oregon, section 8 housing would cost to much to rent.

We were living modestly and still do. But with a small Mortgage the very high property taxes, insurance and all that.... just no way. We would of been like the thousands of families living in Tents in the National parks, because they couldn't afford to put a roof over the families head.

Only thing Min Wage helps, is the companies and rich people that want more money for themselves.

We had to leave the State that we loved, friends and family to move 3,000 miles away so my DH could have a living wage job. Is just enough to put a roof over our heads, food on the table and feed the animals. Not much left over to do anything else. But it is better than living in a Tent in the NW.


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## Jill (Jul 11, 2012)

I agree with you on some of what you said, and understand as well the emotions behind the perspective. I don't know, though, that minimum wage laws benefit companies. It requires them to make staffing changes in order to maintain a bottom line. It potentially helps highly productive or especially talented workers by mandating a raise, but really... those highly productive or most talented employees do not need help as they are the most marketable of the workforce. It feels like the kind of thing most Americans would feel is "good" at first glance, but if you look a little deeper, it's easy to see the true results are not beneficial.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Jul 11, 2012)

I'd get a pay cut from my miesly $8/hr if they cut minimum wage. How would I live on that?


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## Jill (Jul 11, 2012)

Or if they raised minimum wage, maybe your job would be outsourced or divided among other workers. That's pretty much the point. Business owners are not evil, but they have got to make the bottom line work.


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## Shari (Jul 12, 2012)

Most companies are already outsourcing big time, has been like that for many, many years.

I dislike seeing companies that are raking in billions of dollars clear a year, basically do not get taxed and then pull we can only pay mini wage for Engineers... Bunch of dishonest, greedy....... (insert words here)


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## Jill (Jul 13, 2012)

What's behind the outsourcing?

In a lot of cases, it's actually the American consumer who is often no longer willing to pay what it costs to produce items in the USA. When people in other parts of the world work for pennies... And the American worker will not and cannot...

With free markets / free enterprise, which is now spans many parts of the globe, companies react to consumer demands.

Additionally, corporate tax rates in the USA are actually the highest in the developed world. This greatly contributes to the outsourcing.


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## Jill (Jul 13, 2012)

Congress was controlled by the Democrats from 2006 - 2010, and from 2008 - 2010, Democrats had full control of the WH and congress. During 2008 - 2010, Democrats focused on putting Obamacare through, without Republican support, vs. work on the economy. Which is a shame... It is exciting that after the elections, we may have a President with much business understanding and success. We could sure use a different approach.

_Anyway... _

My intent with this thread was to point out something that can be somewhat counter inintuitive -- that increasing the minimum wage actually hurts the lowest income earners. The very people many believe an increased minimum wage would help.


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## jyuukai (Jul 13, 2012)

What about those jobs that can't be outsourced? I work in Retail, in customer service. We can hardly put the customers on the phone when they come in to the store to talk to a real person, and so that sort of job couldn't be cut. Really, I don't get paid enough to work there, and I get paid a tiny bit over min. Between my wife and myself both working we can barely afford the 300sq ft apartment we live in ,and we live in a poor area where housing isn't that expensive!

If min. wage was cut I would be homeless, seriously. It would be far from helpful to me.


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## tagalong (Jul 13, 2012)

> Congress was controlled by the Democrats from 2006 - 2010, and from 2008 - 2010,


Ah yes - the usual lame excuses for the endless filibustering and blocking and derailing - excuses, excuses, excuses for bad behaviour - no matter what side it is on. "They" were in "control" then so that entitles "us" to act like 3rd graders and pout and stamp our feet. It is not Congress - it is a kindergarten that we pay to send these clowns to...

The Rs are loud and proud about devoting their time - and your money - to making sure Obama is just a one term President and why bother with anything that will actually help Americans?? The fact that they are now so blatant about their agenda and their total disregard for trying to actually help out their constituents annoys the heck outta me. And yes, I would be saying the exact same thing if the roles were reversed - I am not "party" blind...


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## Nathan Luszcz (Jul 14, 2012)

jyuukai said:


> What about those jobs that can't be outsourced? I work in Retail, in customer service. We can hardly put the customers on the phone when they come in to the store to talk to a real person, and so that sort of job couldn't be cut. Really, I don't get paid enough to work there, and I get paid a tiny bit over min. Between my wife and myself both working we can barely afford the 300sq ft apartment we live in ,and we live in a poor area where housing isn't that expensive!
> 
> If min. wage was cut I would be homeless, seriously. It would be far from helpful to me.


Exactly my point. I work retail as well.


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## vickie gee (Jul 14, 2012)

On jobs that cannot be outsourced minimum wage helps to get applicants through the door. Back when I had my dry cleaning business if you were hired you started at minimum wage with no experience and slightly above minimum wage if you had experience in pressing. If you were unteachable, a slacker, complaining, lazy, attitudinal, tied up my business phone, and had visitors showing up or calling you on the job you were not there long enough to find out about raises. I had very, very few of those people ever, thank goodness. Those with a desire to learn and who were honest and productive and brought a good attitude to work with them got raises, bonuses, and surprise tipping from me. My best workers usually were high school or college students. At one store a girl that worked for me her high school year as a junior and senior became my assistant manager. She was put on good salaried pay and only had to work part time. She asked me to write a letter of recommendation for her to get into the college radiology program and I was as proud of her as if she was my own child when she got accepted. Business owners have to pick a lot of apples to find the best apples and to make a profit they need to cull the bad apples and reward the good apples. And sadly some apples will never fill out a job application and just let the taxpayers support them if they think they are never going to rise above minimum wage or if it is well known that the employer has a high turn over rate because they do not compensate fairly.


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## ozymandias (Jul 14, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Ah yes - the usual lame excuses for the endless filibustering and blocking and derailing - excuses, excuses, excuses for bad behaviour - no matter what side it is on. "They" were in "control" then so that entitles "us" to act like 3rd graders and pout and stamp our feet. It is not Congress - it is a kindergarten that we pay to send these clowns to...
> 
> The Rs are loud and proud about devoting their time - and your money - to making sure Obama is just a one term President and why bother with anything that will actually help Americans?? The fact that they are now so blatant about their agenda and their total disregard for trying to actually help out their constituents annoys the heck outta me. And yes, I would be saying the exact same thing if the roles were reversed - I am not "party" blind...


THANK YOU !!! I've been a life long Rep myself but to be honest I'm so sick of the kindergarten attitudes that are destroying our nation based on party politics....and the sheeple who accept it as "okay" because they are such followers they won't question what their party is doing because they are "loyal". Anyone so "loyal" isn't using their evolutionary grey matter!!!


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## shelia (Jul 15, 2012)

One thing I see that is hurting the workers (other than outsourcing) is the so called middleman. The costs of everything has risen an awfull lot in the past 20 years or so, but the amount of the actual product from its source has not. Farmers do not get the high profits that some people think. that is all eaten up by the places they sell the products to and then transport costs ect... If beef and other products could be sold locally it could eliminate all of the extra costs. the smaller farmers and ranchers get pushed out because the buyers are instructed to buy from only the large operations. They also only will pay very little. By the time it gets to the store or establishment it has got through a few hands who each get their cut. These people are the ones who are making the large profits.

I have also noticed it to be the same with vet and medical bills. The actual doctors and vets are only a small fraction of the cost. It is all of those other things that bring the price up so much. It is people behind the scenes who are making the big bucks.

The guy who owns the burger joint could get his products a lot cheaper if he could get it from a local rancher. Both he and the rancher would make more money. He could then keep all of his employees.


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## susanne (Jul 15, 2012)

Shelia, There are so many people willing to buy from a small farmer/rancher where the chain is unbroken from birth through slaughter, and where the cattle have half a chance to lead a normal life. So much of the attention goes to the organic farms, but the beef need not be certifiably organic to be preferable to the big, industrialized operations. Granted, I live in a state where laws favor such things, but it wasn't always like this -- it had to start somewhere.

I don't have access to all of the posts on this thread (by choice), so I won't comment on any of that.


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## vvf (Jul 16, 2012)

shelia said:


> One thing I see that is hurting the workers (other than outsourcing) is the so called middleman. The costs of everything has risen an awfull lot in the past 20 years or so, but the amount of the actual product from its source has not. Farmers do not get the high profits that some people think. that is all eaten up by the places they sell the products to and then transport costs ect... If beef and other products could be sold locally it could eliminate all of the extra costs. the smaller farmers and ranchers get pushed out because the buyers are instructed to buy from only the large operations. They also only will pay very little. By the time it gets to the store or establishment it has got through a few hands who each get their cut. These people are the ones who are making the large profits.
> 
> I have also noticed it to be the same with vet and medical bills. The actual doctors and vets are only a small fraction of the cost. It is all of those other things that bring the price up so much. It is people behind the scenes who are making the big bucks.
> 
> The guy who owns the burger joint could get his products a lot cheaper if he could get it from a local rancher. Both he and the rancher would make more money. He could then keep all of his employees.


This is something I have been wondering about farmers (in my area anyway)...They hang Huge prices on their hay... they stack it out in their fields and if they don't get their Huge prices... they don't sell it at all.. And they will let it sit and rot... Some how that just doesn't make sense to me.


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## chandab (Jul 16, 2012)

vvf said:


> This is something I have been wondering about farmers (in my area anyway)...They hang Huge prices on their hay... they stack it out in their fields and if they don't get their Huge prices... they don't sell it at all.. And they will let it sit and rot... Some how that just doesn't make sense to me.


I don't get it either. Some will sell, some won't. We have a neighbor that asks premium price for so-so hay, and its now been sitting on the edge of the field for two years; with the drought he just might get it sold this year for cow hay.


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## shelia (Jul 17, 2012)

I don't know about the hay farmers in you area, but in my area many fruit and vedgetable farmers are paid by the government not to plant. that keeps the prices up. when there is too much of a certain kind of fruit the farms are paid to pull up there trees and start over or plant something else. It is only allowed with the large farms. If you have a smaller operation you can't get paid to do it. Perhaps your hay farmer will get paid subsidies for the loss of his crop. It is a shame that he did all of the work and now just seems to be stubborn.


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## Jill (Jul 17, 2012)

shelia said:


> I don't know about the hay farmers in you area, but in my area many fruit and vedgetable farmers are paid by the government not to plant. that keeps the prices up. when there is too much of a certain kind of fruit the farms are paid to pull up there trees and start over or plant something else. It is only allowed with the large farms. If you have a smaller operation you can't get paid to do it. Perhaps your hay farmer will get paid subsidies for the loss of his crop. It is a shame that he did all of the work and now just seems to be stubborn.


That's exactly what I too suspect


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## chandab (Jul 17, 2012)

To my knowledge, at least around here, they don't limit hay production as Mother Nature does a pretty good job of that as it is. [Not sure if hay is limited anywhere, as its not as high value as many other crops.]


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## shelia (Jul 17, 2012)

They may not limit hay for horses, but if they think it can be fed to cattle they very well limit it. Do you remember when mad cow disease showed up in the U.S.? We are now banned fom selling beef to many countries and then right after that we were told there is a beef shortage so prices must go up. We lost a very large beef market, but yet there is a shortage. I understand that the weather has not cooperated much. Most very large cattle operations are on government land. it is leased to the ranchers for $1.00 a year. I don't remember how many acres they get for that. The cows are rarely seen untill it is time to round them up. They generally don't need food till they are rounded up. Some areas have had bumper crops of hay this year. They will limit production of whatever it takes to keep prices in check. Whether it is oil or food or anything else people need.


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## chandab (Jul 18, 2012)

I'd like to know where there is gov't land for grazing cattle for only $1 a year; I highly doubt that, nothing is that cheap. Grazing permits cost money per head per month.

Cattle hay is not limited around here, and there is very little good horse hay to be had.


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## ozymandias (Jul 18, 2012)

http://www.blm.gov/or/resources/rangelands/index.php


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## chandab (Jul 18, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> http://www.blm.gov/o...lands/index.php


That's not a dollar per year. That's a dollar+ per AUM, so like $16 per year per head for 12 months of grazing (if they don't graze a full 12 months then its less). And that link is for 2008, so 4 years ago, I'm sure prices have gone up.


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## Jill (Jul 18, 2012)

I don't have time to watch the video now (client due in soon and just back from doing a Chamber of Commerce presentation), but I will watch it. I'd watch it now but it's almost half an hour.

What I can say about Mitt Romney's taxes is he has released his 2010 taxes. He paid millions in taxation and millions to charities. His 2011 are being completed now and there's really nothing unusual or wrong about that situation. I suspect many of us, myself included, also filed for an automatic extension to file this year. Pretty routine. He's said a number of times that he will release his 2011 return upon completion but as is so often the case, one side carries on with their talking points no matter what has actually already been stated.

You can download Mitt Romney's 2010 return here: http://www.mittromne.../wmr-adr-return

Charity's important, right? The Romneys donated 16% of their income to charity. The Obama's donated 1%. Biden donated $369... That equated to a small fraction of one percent.

An issue a lot of people are upset about, yet I don't think they fully understand, is that Romney has a lower effective tax rate because he's paying taxes on money he's already paid taxes on (capital gains!). He's not at fault in that matter. He's paying exactly what the tax code calls for him to pay.

Personally, I begrudge no one their success and would rather have a successful business person as President than a community organizer any day of the year.


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## vickie gee (Jul 18, 2012)

I am just glad Joe gave something because "you know Joe, he IS the gift that keeps on giving." I had already read the charity percentages of the three you mentioned earlier this week.

And Jill, as far as Romney's 2011 taxes go I will say that after listening to Donald Trump on Hannity's radio program on my drive home today that I hope Romney takes the Donald's advise.



Somehow I can pay him (Trump) more attention if I only have audio verses visual and audio.


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## Shari (Jul 18, 2012)

Mitt makes a whole butt load more money than the Obama's. And yes, I think he is hiding something, I don't want a Pres that won't release his tax files.


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## Jill (Jul 18, 2012)

So, 16% to Romney feels less than 1% to Obama? I doubt it.

Romney being vilified for his success and discounted for his charitable giving makes zero sense to me.


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## shelia (Jul 18, 2012)

chandab said:


> That's not a dollar per year. That's a dollar+ per AUM, so like $16 per year per head for 12 months of grazing (if they don't graze a full 12 months then its less). And that link is for 2008, so 4 years ago, I'm sure prices have gone up.


I was told it was a dollar a year. I should have checked my facts before posting. that is still pretty cheap though,


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## chandab (Jul 19, 2012)

shelia said:


> I was told it was a dollar a year. I should have checked my facts before posting. that is still pretty cheap though,


Compared to horse board, yes pretty cheap; but most ranchers don't have just one or two head, they have probably hundreds. And, grazing fees are just one part of yearly expenses to run cattle.


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