# Traces...tight or loose?



## onequarterfarm (Oct 10, 2013)

at local shows around me, I've observed traces being hooked with no slack...from pics from world shows, both AMHA and AMHR I see loose traces and some that appear to go outside the shaft and back inside again before hooking to the cart.

Which is the correct placement? Should the horse be pulling the cart from the traces or the tugs? I am a newbie, obviously, but wondering why the difference???

Thanks,

Nikki


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 10, 2013)

Yes, IMO the horse should be pulling with the traces but you will see them slack when the horse is actually using the saddle (thus his back) to move the cart. Many breed show drivers want to see the horse using the harness saddle rather than the traces because it 'opens up the shoulders' (the way I have had it described to me) and allows more freedom of movement in the front end. That may be fine (I personally don't agree with it) in an arena on a flat surface and in good footing but when any one of those three conditions are not met it is IMO unfair to ask a horse to use its back to pull with rather than pushing into the traces. It IMO negates the value of collection. Others will not agree with me I'm sure but I doubt a driven dressage judge would place a horse that was harnessed in such a way and it is much harder on cross country drives for a horse to move the driver/cart forward. Rather than pushing up hills with his engine (his hind quarters) he must tug the cart up with his girth..


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 10, 2013)

Reignmaker is right on target in her reply!


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## studiowvw (Oct 10, 2013)

Seems to me that it is the saddle/girth friction on the barrel that is pulling the cart and driver in this show type of hitching.

Therefore the amount the mini could actually pull would be much less than using the direct action of pushing into breast collar/traces.


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## onequarterfarm (Oct 10, 2013)

Thanks for the explanation...makes sense now


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## Katie Iceton (Oct 10, 2013)

When did the breed ring become so un-focused on the comfort and well being of the horses?? It makes me so sad


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## Champ (Oct 11, 2013)

People do it because judges place them in classes



if they stopped doing so, then maybe people would stop that practice.....


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## studiowvw (Oct 11, 2013)

Just been thinking that the show type of hitching is like wearing high heels. More fashionable, more "sexy", makes people look taller... but can you really walk in them?

Of course, we have a choice to wear high heels or not, but the horses don't get to choose between fashion and common sense.


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## Sandee (Oct 11, 2013)

Only time there should be slack in the traces is when the horse is stopped or not "in draft" (pulling) the cart. Some "wrap" the traces around the shafts because they got in a habit when these small horses didn't have properly fitted harness.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 11, 2013)

Absolutely spot on, Sandee. The term "in draught" is one I use all the time and the one I most often get asked to explain- I would actually go one further and say the only time there should be any slack is when the horse is going down hill. When standing still you should certainly be able to feel lack of tension in the traces but there should not really be visible slack. When in draught the traces are the only thing that the horse should be pulling with, therefore they should be taught.

Katie, sadly, the show ring, any animal, any breed, gives no concession to the animal's needs or comfort. It is a beauty pageant in which the participants have no choice- models choose to starve themselves to look that way, animals have no say. It is therefore up to us to do anything we can to educate newcomers and Judges.


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## diamond c (Oct 11, 2013)

I agree, traces are for pulling the cart/wagon. Look at team wagons, the traces are never slack unless the horse/mule/donkey is backing up.


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## Performancemini (Oct 12, 2013)

Yes. And what do they back up with? Breeching! And do you usually see that in the breed ring pleasure classes? No! (rarely). Another comfort and proper harnessing thing that's been eliminated by most! (including ourselves - until next year- we are planning on throwing fashion out the window!!!).


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## Indian*R*A*I*N*Dance (Oct 12, 2013)

I might get yelled at for this one but- I agree with what Reignmaker is saying about 'opening up the shoulders' so the horse has more freedom of movement but how do you think they get a horse to do that? You train the horse to correctly move off of the hind end..an no it's not cruel..that's how a horse should move, with impulsion- back to front. In every discipline a horse needs to correctly use their 'ring of muscles' or else they won't be able to perform athletically. A horse needs to use 'the ring' to coil its loin to be able to push off for a jump, western pleasure horses use impulsion to push off at the lope, dressage horses need to be able to push off to preform piaffes or tempis. What do these all have in common? They all have to PUSH off. A driving horse should use his hind end to push off the ground into a trot and working trot. Horses work back to front, pushing off from the hind end to the front end. Many of them push themselves into the bridle, not the breastplate, which I would rather see but I know a lot of people would disagree. So why are the traces loose? They are loose because the horse is not heavy on the forehand and doesn't lean on the breastplate to pull the cart. They push themselves into the bridle. They aren't pulling the bridle, the are pushing themselves into the tack. I hear it time and time again when I am at the barn since my school is mainly dressage; the horse needs to engage its hind quarters to have enough impulsion to be able to settle into the bridle. Since the horse naturally stands with 60% of its weight on the front end, it needs to be trained on how to use the hind end so the horse is balanced. 

In my honest opinion, it's harder on the horse to push directly on the breastplate and pull with all the weight on the traces. The horse will be heavy on the forehand which is when most horses stumble.It's the same concept as you trying to push a car..it's not easy. It's hard to get that forward impulsion when the horse is restricted. I'm NOT saying every horse should have loose traces. Many will not be loose and the horse will still be working off the hind end, a lot also depends on the length of your traces compared to your horse. 

Coming from the show ring, I feel like a lot of people pick on and talk negatively about things that are "wrong" and "incorrect" but the people who show focus on working the horse so they build the muscle to do the job correctly. You can't take a horse with no prior training, right from the field and expect it to engage his hind end along with having a strong enough scalenus and longis colli muscle to hold a head set, those are muscles that need to be worked...I don't thinks its cruel to train your horse to correctly use those muscles so they can preform the task at hand.

I would never wrap the traces around the shafts, it's a safety issue. I was at a show where a judge went up to someone who did that and told her not to.


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## Minimor (Oct 12, 2013)

With all due respect--the majority of the show ring harness horses are NOT working back to front--a horse that is engaging his hindquarters properly has a rounded back, which allows his hind legs to get under him, and yes, that does elevate the front end. However--show ring driving horses are not trained that way. Look at them carefully. Hind legs are frequently trailing, not getting up and under the horse. Front end is pulled up by the check rein and lines. Horse's back is hollowed--with a hollow back the horse cannot engage his hindquarters. These horses do not get the dressage training it takes to get the engagement and elevation that you see in a truly light, collected horse--they are simply made to go in a certain frame.

If the traces are not taut then the horse is pulling with something else--either the saddle or the lines. In a level arena with firm footing pulling with the saddle isn't a huge issue--the horses get by it seems. If the horse is pulling from his mouth--that would be very wrong. If the horse is pulling with his mouth then he is not light in the bridle, he is not collected, he is not anything except having his face pulled off!! Please.


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## susanne (Oct 13, 2013)

> It's the same concept as you trying to push a car..it's not easy. It's hard to get that forward impulsion when the horse is restricted.


Hmm...so, next time we need to move our car, instead of pushing, it would be easier to pull it with a rope tied around our waists or in our mouths? Or perhaps we will look better doing it?

Since you mention dressage, you may wish to read up on driven dressage, including experts such as Heike Bean, or to view the many videos available online (CDEs, pleasure shows, etc.).


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 13, 2013)

I'm a little confused. How can a dressage harness horse and a dressage ridden horse do their work the same? The ridden horse must lift the weight, the harness horse must pull the weight. I understand about centering the weight or load so the horse can use its body more freely. I understand about teaching horse to use its muscles to best advantage, like a person learning to lift a heavy load corrrectly. But a horse carrying a weight and using its hind to lift itself is not the same as a hrose pulling a weight and using its hind to displace inertia. Isn't it better for a horse to use the widest, most forward part of its body to move a load? (I'll admit sometimes my hroses are wider around the middle than their chests!)

I invested in a quality breast collar with the understanding that my horse will be pulling me, not pushing or lifting me.

The different disciplines use different words for the same concept or even piece of equipment.

Sometimes it seems folks in the horse world are speaking different languages; they may mean the same thing but the words are understood differently.


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## Minimor (Oct 13, 2013)

Regardless of what words are used....the fact remains that if the horse is correctly hitched the traces should never be loose except when the horse is stopped or is braking with the breeching. When there is forward momentum (unless going downhill, in which case there is forward momentum even while the horse is braking) and the traces are loose, it means that the horse is pulling with something other than those traces.

Technically the horse is pulling the cart, but in doing so he is pushing against the breastcollar with his chest, and so some people say that he is actually pushing. Either way--he will be using the traces to make the cart come along behind him.

Whether ridden or driven, in dressage the horse should be rounding his back,; this allows him to get his hind legs under himself, and to also elevate his front end by shifting his weight off of his forehand. Because the driven dressage horse is propelling the weight behind him and the ridden dressage horse is carrying the weight on his back the two horses will be compensating for those weights in somewhat different ways, but with correct training and conditioning the end result is the same.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 13, 2013)

Minimor said:


> Technically the horse is pulling the cart, but in doing so he is pushing against the breastcollar with his chest, and so some people say that he is actually pushing. Either way--he will be using the traces to make the cart come along behind him.


That makes sense! The visual picture of a horse pushing with his hind into the breast collar is clear. The pulling of the cart is the result of the pushing. The blind man sees!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 13, 2013)

I am speechless! (_which doesn't happen often I assure you _ ) and Minimor has said it better than I could anyway.


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## onequarterfarm (Oct 13, 2013)

I love a spirited discussion and appreciate BOTH sides of an arguement. Here's what I am referring to in my original question, and I loved this horse on the live feed...2013 AMHA champ 4 yr old single action futurity driving winner. Those ARE the traces, correct? I am still learning all of this

https://www.caseymcbridephotography.com/dspProofImage.asp?width=1024&show=2013%20AMHA%20World%20Championship%20Show\OCT%2003%2C%20THURSDAY\F21%20-%20Four%20Year%20Old%20Single%20Pleasure%20Driving%20Futurity&image=F21-017-13WCS.JPG


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## Katie Iceton (Oct 13, 2013)

Yep...and look where the tug loops and wrap straps are...in his armpit...that's what that horse is holding the cart back with...he is not round...he is shoved so far back because of check and martingale...he cant get round. Makes me so sad


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## Indian*R*A*I*N*Dance (Oct 13, 2013)

I do know that the particular horse in the picture onequarterfarm posted is trained by someone who has many years of dressage experience and had been to Europe many times to train.That horse is engaging his hind end. If you look at a couple pictures closely all but one of the horses has loose traces at some point with in the time they were showing, particularly the breastplate, but many are also not engaged in the hind end.



Minimor said:


> With all due respect--the majority of the show ring harness horses are NOT working back to front--a horse that is engaging his hindquarters properly has a rounded back, which allows his hind legs to get under him, and yes, that does elevate the front end. However--show ring driving horses are not trained that way. Look at them carefully. Hind legs are frequently trailing, not getting up and under the horse. Front end is pulled up by the check rein and lines. Horse's back is hollowed--with a hollow back the horse cannot engage his hindquarters. These horses do not get the dressage training it takes to get the engagement and elevation that you see in a truly light, collected horse--they are simply made to go in a certain frame.
> 
> If the traces are not taut then the horse is pulling with something else--either the saddle or the lines. In a level arena with firm footing pulling with the saddle isn't a huge issue--the horses get by it seems. If the horse is pulling from his mouth--that would be very wrong. If the horse is pulling with his mouth then he is not light in the bridle, he is not collected, he is not anything except having his face pulled off!! Please.


No. there are not many horses out there that TRULY work from behind- I didn't mean for it to sound like I was implying every horse in the show ring does that. I am also not saying the horse is pulling from its mouth, I did state "They are not pulling form the bridle".

It won't let me reply below what Susanne said but- Clearly the car example wasn't the best... I just used that as an example for being heavy on the forehand. I am not at all saying or even suggesting that you should pull a car with a rope..?



susanne said:


> Hmm...so, next time we need to move our car, instead of pushing, it would be easier to pull it with a rope tied around our waists or in our mouths? Or perhaps we will look better doing it?


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## Katie Iceton (Oct 14, 2013)

If that horse was engaged and having impulsion...the traces would not be slack...impulsion and engagement means a forward movement...even in a collected trot. Also stands for proper harnessing, which in my opinion this horse is not.


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## studiowvw (Oct 14, 2013)

Pictures being deceptive as they are a moment in time: either -

1. With the traces that loose, and the shaft loops forward of the saddle, the horse in the picture is pulling the cart with its mouth.

or

2. She is pulling to stop or slow or "engage" and there is no breeching to keep the cart distanced from the horse. The shaft loops are holding back the cart but it looks like the most pressure is from her arms to the horse's mouth.

3. In either case, look at the bit - you can see how far it is pulling back the sides of the mouth.

When horses play in the field they can do superb dressage movement without pressure and training - dressage is a human approximation of those moves. Horses can also be taught to collect at liberty, or with light contact. They don't need 40 lbs of pull to collect them.

If it takes 40 lbs of pull to compress a horse between the bit and the tug loops and raise its front end so the front legs are free to fly, there is no "correct dressage training" - it is simple mechanics.


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## TMR (Oct 14, 2013)

Having come from the breed show ring after participating for 15 years and now doing CDE's exclusively for the past 4 years, I can see both sides of the picture. There are some (albeit few) in the breed show ring that do perform with rounded backs and engaged rear end which is nice to see. However, that is not what they are really wanting-think Society shows (hackneys, saddlebreds, etc) They want flashy front ends. Yes, most are pulling off the saddle, but it is in a very flat arena with very light carts. I believe many trainers are protective of their ponies comfort, however their are always a few bad eggs in every discipline and many amateurs and "want to be" trainers that are not always able to see the difference and try to mimic them. The traces are loose because that is how they want them. You will not see open tugs in the breed show ring for a reason (one being no breeching, but the other so that they can hold the shafts at a position for the saddle to pull). They mostly use wrap strap type shaft hold downs and have them tightened so that they pull off the saddle and don't interfere with the shoulders. Seriously can anyone actually think those thin little breast collars are for pulling? Now that would be serious discomfort. Now there are some that do train for the pony to pull from the bridle and thats another whole subject that I am not as open too. Hope this all made sense in my rambling, but just my opinion from someone whos been on both sides of the fence. Having friends in the society pony world I try to listen and be open to their training methods and reasonings. However, I will say that their is quite a difference with weight ratio from a hackney or even shetland pulling 150 pounds from the saddle versus a mini(and thats a low figure in reality since many of us weigh that much let alone the 50+ lb cart). Let's face it, even a small refined 42" pony weighs 400 pounds where as the smaller refined mini that we see in the show ring weighs maybe 250.


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## Katie Iceton (Oct 14, 2013)

But the entire point of a harness is for weight to be distributed and for pulling comfort. Breast collars are designed to be the point of contact where the horse pulls from, pushes into to move forward (so if they are making them so thin they are useless, well then people don't understand the comfort of the horse and uses of the pieces of the harness) , the saddle is there to take the weight of a cart, as there is no rider. If the saddle is now taking the weight of the cart and driver no matter how light there is still pressure, and then is also where the horse has to pull from....to me that is improper harnessing and I believe probably very uncomfortable for the horse. I compete in CDE, and dressage, even though they are on a level surface that is easy to pull...I would never let my traces slack because my horses uses them to pull the cart! He can lengthen and collect just fine with the breast collar engaged.


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## Minimor (Oct 14, 2013)

And as for the original question--for at home driving you definitely want the horse pulling from the breast collar. Think if you're going up a hill and he is pulling from the saddle/belly band--you could just end up with that saddle/belly band sliding back where you don't want it to be!! Could happen, if you don't do it up tight and there's enough rearward pressure on it from the weight of the cart and driver it's pulling--have it slip far enough and then you're in for a wreck.

There is a reason harness comes with a breast collar, rather than just having a saddle that is meant for pulling--and even if people don't use it for that purpose in the show ring you should use it for that purpose at home.


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## TMR (Oct 14, 2013)

Katie, I fully agree with you. What is going on in the breed show ring is the reason why I only do CDE's now. I was just trying to not get into the usual their wrong and we are right war. Its really comparing apples to oranges, as it is two different styles of driving so I have decided to agree to disagree about training and such. I believe most any driving horse can go from point A to point B and get there fine. However, there are alot fewer driving horses that can go from point A to point B properly with bending, engagement, rhythm and relaxation, but how many really care about those things (except for those of us that are obsessed with that ever elusive dressage score in the 20's. LOL). The majority of drivers just want to go down the road and have a little fun.


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## Jill (Oct 14, 2013)

We all should do what we think is best for our horses, and ourselves. Gotta figure this sort of site has a lot of people who are now or will later look for their own answers in this discussion.

Realize, there are not that many people. or horses, who can change the way it works. If you want to win ribbons and titles, maybe you do things "this" way. If you want to do CDE, have fun, "whatever", then there may be other ways that are better.

Realize at a registry show, you are wasting your time and money if you are not doing what you think the judge wants to see. At least, that is my opinion, and my experience! *I* already know what I like, and it does evolve. It's probably the same for us all. But when we prepare our horses and pay our show fees -- it is the judge's opinion we are asking for in the class.

There are probably multiple right ways to answer the OP, depending on what the goal at hand actually happens to be.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 14, 2013)

So you see Nikki (onequarterfarms), no question is simple when it is about horses and what is right or wrong.



We all have opinions, some based on long experience, others on what they feel or have been told or have seen. You must decide for yourself what seems right to you and for your horses and how you use them, just have the rest of us have. You have been given some very solid reasons why it is done one way or another.


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## susanne (Oct 14, 2013)

.

I can accept that pulling from the saddle is less of an issue in a flat, even show ring. I would never do it, but there are worse things in the world.

I recognize that AMHR and AMHA do not truly offer driving classes, but rather "halter in motion" classes, so I accept this and watch accordingly.

I also agree that some people do what they think it takes to win a ribbon, but I cite the example of Dorothy Whiteman as one who trains and drives correctly (in both the show ring and in CDEs) and won a championship at Nationals in 2012. (Not that she's the only one.)

But I will NEVER accept the idea of the horse pulling a cart by the lines and bit. This is absolutely wrong -- the thought that any horse owner could think this is acceptable is horrifying.

Finally...make the choice you feel you must, but DON'T suggest that this approach to driving is correct and that those who do otherwise are wrong -- especially when citing dressage as the operating principle. Many, many generations of driving tradition prove otherwise.

I do wish that the breed shows would offer at least one class that promotes and rewards actual driving, rather than just the current selection of "halter in motion" classes.


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## onequarterfarm (Oct 14, 2013)

This is so educational Coming from showing APHA and AQHA...I must admit I am a show ring junkie...I love to dress up and prance around in circles...or so my hubby says LOL I have been riding horses for over 30 years, but just recently gotten into the minis...which I love! Takes me back to my childhood of showing arabians I have friends that do CDE, so she shows me the tighter traces and I have friends that do rated shows, thus the loose traces...I feel like I will hook mine up the way that fits him best for his comfort and the chance to perform to his personal best, which will be no more that classic pleasure driving in the show ring....it's just my personal

Again, this has been and continues to be THE PLACE for learning

Thanks everyone!!!

Nikki


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 14, 2013)

Well, while out driving Bridget today I tried something new. When going up a few inclines, I asked her to PUSH, instead of pull!

I was more observant of the sulky/quick hitch I have. Since there are no traces, I was trying to watch if she was pushing with the saddle or the breast collar. I think the quick hitch setup causes her to push from the saddle. I'm sure the breast collar helps a little.

I know she is not pushing with the bit, however.

As soon as she gets a little more muscle, I'll put her in the regular cart.


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## Annabellarose (Oct 15, 2013)

Love, love, love your comments (quoted below) and I agree.

The more Miniature Horse breed/registry shows, videos, photographs, and discussions like this that I see the more I am turned off and I truly hate that as the Miniature Horse breed/registry show scene is one of the main reasons that I came over to Miniature Horses, as a breed. I bred a few horses and then I started to get more and more turned off by what I was seeing in the show ring and the Friday before last I gelded every stallion and colt on the place and I had already sold all but one of my mares. I started my (former) stallion in the lines this weekend and I am becoming more and more interested in CDE, etc.



> susanne, on 14 Oct 2013 - 18:00, said:
> 
> I can accept that pulling from the saddle is less of an issue in a flat, even show ring. I would never do it, but there are worse things in the world.
> 
> ...


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## studiowvw (Oct 15, 2013)

Hello Marsha

As an "improving" driver, my question is how you physically ask her to "push" instead of "pull".

I am feeling my way and I need to know details





As in, how you change the technique of asking, for one or the other.


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## Marsha Cassada (Oct 15, 2013)

onequarterfarm said:


> I love a spirited discussion and appreciate BOTH sides of an arguement. Here's what I am referring to in my original question, and I loved this horse on the live feed...2013 AMHA champ 4 yr old single action futurity driving winner. Those ARE the traces, correct? I am still learning all of this
> 
> https://www.caseymcbridephotography.com/dspProofImage.asp?width=1024&show=2013%20AMHA%20World%20Championship%20Show\OCT%2003%2C%20THURSDAY\F21%20-%20Four%20Year%20Old%20Single%20Pleasure%20Driving%20Futurity&image=F21-017-13WCS.JPG


That horse appears to be pulling with the bridle. Tell me I'm wrong...


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 15, 2013)

I have looked at that picture hard and I have to say I can only agree- how can that be thought to be right and why is it being rewarded? Maybe the Judges need educating, then at least we would maybe not stop the pulling form the saddle but we would stop the pulling form the bridle- how is that even possible?


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## Minimor (Oct 15, 2013)

It pays for people to realize--just because some people take dressage lessons and/or talk about what they know of dressage does not mean they can actually do dressage training properly. I gave known dressage riders and instructors to demonstrate a dressage type movement and in actual fact it is done incorrectly. One tune a fellow was rising a circle and bragging how well his horse was collecting and bending. Uh huh. The horse was overbent, dropping its shoulder and running along on the forehand, good job!

Look at the dressage riders who claim to be good at what they do....as they demonstrate rollkur!!!


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## studiowvw (Oct 18, 2013)

Well, this thread has been very educational - now I look at those pictures of the little guys in action and I see:

- head set between check rein and martingales

- bulging neck muscles out front

- loose traces, and tug loops forward of the girth (meaning neither of those are pulling the cart)

- braced arms on the driver

- bit pulled way back in the mouth

So as I see it, here are the mechanics of this form of "driving":

You compress the neck and head between the check rein, the martingale and the bit, using the tug loops as the base, then pull hard enough to leverage the front end off the ground, therefore freeing up the front legs to have more action. This brings the hind legs underneath (or the horse would fall down), simulating collection.

I don't know, am I crazy?

The only training involved here would be to condition the horse gradually to accept this set of restraints and build up the mouth and neck and back muscles so it can pull from its mouth.

I don't accept that "you have to do that if you want to win" or "you're looking for the judge's opinion" or "if you don't do this you are wasting your time and money going to shows" are solid reasons for doing this stuff.

I think that show people should demand classes in real driving at sanctioned shows. Oh, I know! - "but that would be so boring!"


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 19, 2013)

I actually lodged a formal complaint at one of our shows and made the checks be removed (they are now actually banned) and the poor horse nearly fell over! It was sad to see but I felt a point had to be made as, when I asked personally and politely I was merely told it was too loose to be having any action. Yes, right, and my pigs are all primed and set to fly!

Couple of shows later this horse made the ultimate gesture, the only one open to it, and went over backwards onto the cart (no-one, miraculously, was hurt) - this was not at one of our sanctioned shows but one run under AMHA rules that allowed checks.

Once again the AMHA/R horses lead the world in lunacy...........



.......sorry!!! But it is hard to explain to other "normal" horsey people why some of the things they see are done.

As far as I can see, from having watched worlds and nationals on live stream, the show horses are mostly (and there are exceptions, it must be said) just taught to run away from the cart. The check and martingale make it possible to have a semblance of control.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 29, 2013)

Indian*R*A*I*N*Dance said:


> I might get yelled at for this one but- I agree with what Reignmaker is saying about 'opening up the shoulders' so the horse has more freedom of movement but how do you think they get a horse to do that? *You train the horse to correctly move off of the hind end..an no it's not cruel..that's how a horse should move, with impulsion- back to front. In every discipline a horse needs to correctly use their 'ring of muscles' or else they won't be able to perform athletically. A horse needs to use 'the ring' to coil its loin to be able to push off for a jump, western pleasure horses use impulsion to push off at the lope, dressage horses need to be able to push off to preform piaffes or tempis. What do these all have in common? They all have to PUSH off. A driving horse should use his hind end to push off the ground into a trot and working trot. Horses work back to front, pushing off from the hind end to the front end.* Many of them push themselves into the bridle, not the breastplate, which I would rather see but I know a lot of people would disagree. So why are the traces loose? They are loose because the horse is not heavy on the forehand and doesn't lean on the breastplate to pull the cart. They push themselves into the bridle. They aren't pulling the bridle, the are pushing themselves into the tack. I hear it time and time again when I am at the barn since my school is mainly dressage; the horse needs to engage its hind quarters to have enough impulsion to be able to settle into the bridle. *Since the horse naturally stands with 60% of its weight on the front end, it needs to be trained on how to use the hind end so the horse is balanced.*
> 
> In my honest opinion, it's harder on the horse to push directly on the breastplate and pull with all the weight on the traces. The horse will be heavy on the forehand which is when most horses stumble.It's the same concept as you trying to push a car..it's not easy. It's hard to get that forward impulsion when the horse is restricted. I'm NOT saying every horse should have loose traces. Many will not be loose and the horse will still be working off the hind end, a lot also depends on the length of your traces compared to your horse.
> 
> ...


Everything in bold is correct as I understand it. I think where you're getting such strong disagreement is the idea that because the horse is working UP into the bridle, he cannot also be working FORWARD into the breastcollar. Granted, it is harder with a breastcollar. If harnessed with a neck collar as was traditional, the horse _would_ be pushing up into his shoulders and have both freedom of movement and ease in pulling his load. With a breastcollar (and a thin one at that) the horse really has to drop and coil his hindquarters to get up under a load or needs to be able to put his head forward and down. Where I think you're mistaken is the belief that a horse who is leaning into the breastcollar is by definition heavy on his forehand. The two have nothing to do with each other. Yes, a horse who is heavy on the forehand will probably appear to be leaning forward over the breastcollar as he dumps his energy into the ground through his forelegs. He'd look like that under a rider too, or lunging untacked! But a horse working properly from back to front should have no problem pushing into that breastcollar at the same time he elevates the root of his neck and reaches forward into the bridle.

If his body is going forward, the breastcollar and by definition the cart are going to go with him. The question of how he uses his body is totally separate from how he makes the cart move. The easiest and most ergonomic way for him to make the vehicle move is by pushing against the load with his front end. Period. The best way for him to use his body for long-term soundness (and in some opinions, aesthetic beauty) is by using his ring of muscles to coil his hind end and use those large motor muscles to carry the weight of his body. Period. And conveniently for all of us, those aren't mutually exclusive.






Another potential misconception I see in this thread comes up in regards to that photo. It was stated that he is using his hind end, and in fact he does appear to be coiling his loins and contracting his underline. What he is NOT doing is relaxing the opposite side of the ring of muscles. Contracture all over, top and bottom, is nothing but tension and _cannot_ create free movement. It can create flashy movement certainly, not but free and loose movement. His neck is very compressed (witness the wrinkles along the lower crest), his jaw is tight and his spine is scrunched in. Now I'm not even going to address the idea of whether free movement or flashy movement is the better goal as that isn't particularly relevant here; it's apples to oranges and some people prefer citrus. Not my issue! LOL. But I do want to correct the idea that because he has tipped his pelvis and gathered his body he is working from back to front in a proper dressage frame as described in the original post I'm quoting. Dressage (should that be your goal, and I only state it as such because you're using dressage terms here,) is about teaching the horse rhythm, relaxation, suppleness and balance. They have to let go of tension in the back in order to be able to lift the spine, and they must lift the spine in order to push the poll forward into the bridle. Now as it happens I do think at the moment this photo was taken the horse was probably being asked for a transition to a slower gait or checked back from an attempt to break or something which would have caused a lot of that compression, and we need to remember that a photograph is only one moment in time. But there is no way this horse is working back to front AT THAT MOMENT. His hind end wasn't trailing but if you tip that photograph to be level his weight appears to be squarely over that foreleg anyway. That is true of an alarming number of minis. And frankly, I'm not sure it really matters in the greater scheme of things as if you aren't trying to train for something, why should you care that your animal doesn't do it?



That would be like me getting upset that my western pleasure horse doesn't piaffe or that my dressage horse can't trot a 2 minute mile. Um, hello, not what they were bred or trained for? To each their own. But I want to make sure the difference is clear between contracting the underline, lengthening the topline and truly using the hindquarters and simply compressing the body.

Leia


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 29, 2013)

As always Leia you have made muddy waters much clearer





ps. good to see you here again, we've (I've) missed your input


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## Marsha Cassada (Nov 1, 2013)

I'm going to enter this discussion again with a question.

I put Bridget into the regular Jerald runabout today with the Camptown breast collar. (She has only been in the sulky before, so different harness and greater weight to "push" today.) She is the same height as Dapper Dan, and her back strap and crupper fit her the same. But she is much slighter in build than he is, so I had to adjust the breast collar. I did not shorten the traces since both horses seem to be the same nose-to-tail. The singletree appears to be moving freely back and forth, though not with as great a motion as when DD is hitched. It appears the traces are not taut, but perhaps they are taut enough? I got out to check once and it appears to be adjusted all right.

What should I be looking for if I am driving alone and have no one (knowledgable) to observe if the traces have the correct tautness?


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## jess - bentley (Nov 11, 2013)

I am part of a driving club in NY and have been driving for years. Your horse should definitely be pulling with the breast collar and traces, not the saddle or tugs and the traces should not look loose or wrapped around the shafts because if they are then your horse can not pull correctly.


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