# I have been bouncing off the walls all week



## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 30, 2011)

A week or two ago I realized the summer has been slipping away and suddenly it's three weeks from the ocean trip where I originally intended to see if the boys were willing to make their maiden voyage as a pair. I know that sounds nutty but when I was there last year with Turbo tied behind the cart I watched Kody struggle through the deep sand at the head of the beach and eyed that big strong colt just tagging along behind us and vowed that next year I was going to hitch that sucker up and let him help with the pulling.




I also figured since there were plenty of people to help us and a lot of open space to let them work it out through sheer mileage, I could try something that wouldn't be a great idea at home where I'm usually by myself and working in a small area. (Both my boys are far more cooperative when out and going somewhere. Why bother to fight or buck when there's somewhere to GO?!) I figured it would be a one-off and they wouldn't return to pair work until the next year most likely after Turbo was accomplished as a single.

Unfortunately between our weather and some unexpected family stuff (my grandmother passing away, out of town guests, etc.) I haven't been able to get out with the boys as much as I hoped to and Turbo isn't in the cart yet. He's been regularly working in long-lines and in typical mini fashion has picked it up with amazing speed but he hasn't learned to sit on the breeching, pull into the breastcollar or move into shafts. I'm not worried about the cart itself as he's been being ponied for a year and knows all the sights/sounds, but I can't put him to until he knows how to control the cart instead of just following it. On the plus side he's doing REALLY well in those long-lines, giving soft lateral bends, good transitions, solid halts and beginning to offer some flexion through the poll at a trot, but he's not ready to drive until I cover those other lessons.





Nevertheless, I figured I'd hate myself if things worked out at the beach and I didn't have the necessary stuff so I've started ordering my pair driving equipment. It won't cost any less in another year and at least it will be there if I need it! The modified pair pole is being built as we speak, I finally found 20" wheels with 4.5" hubs so I can replace my one that has damaged spokes and I tracked down a pony-sized axle to widen my wheelbase. (Hint: CTM is answering their phones again and won't be making these anymore so if you want one, buy it now!) My beta pair reins from Chimacum Tack showed up the day before we left to go to CA for Grandma's wake so I grabbed my horse-savvy housesitter and dragged her out to the barn to try them out.

I've been working with the boys for the last six months on staying even with each other and learning not to play or quarrel while walking together so I felt we had a pretty good foundation. On their own they had gone from matching strides on either side of me to walking side-by-side in front of me so I figured it wasn't a big stretch to putting reins on them instead of leads now that Turbo knows how to ground-drive. I was anticipating lots of potential reactions to finding themselves tied together for the first time however so I wasn't about to try this without a good helper.





I worked Kody until he was supple (he really showed me he's starting to get this lateral work thing!) and then tied him up while I worked the sillies out of Turbo and once they were both focused and bending I had my helper head them while I attached the coupling reins and used a narrow piece of PVC over a rope with snaps on both ends as a "yoke" to tie them together. Unfortunately I wasn't really prepared to be doing this so soon and without breastcollars for both horses I had nowhere to attach the PVC properly so I ended up snapping it to the backstrap ring on each saddle as that was the right distance apart.



That worked as poorly as you'd think, btw. On the other hand it was good experience for Turbo to stay calm while his saddle rotated all the way around his barrel!



He learned the correct response is to stop and wait for Mom to fix it, which is no shabby lesson.





The beginning wasn't pretty with much pinning of ears from Kody and confusion from Turbo and I'm glad I had the header keep a lead on Turbo and walk beside him. It was absolutely necessary! There was no way I could have safely handled both horses myself. We stopped frequently as I'd click them for some moment of non-disaster (my standards were very low for the first few minutes!



) and the header and I would proceed to shove the boys back together, reach up and simultaneously right the saddles on our respective horses and off we'd go again. After walking half the arena they were beginning to get used to being tethered and I proceeded to changes of direction to take Kody's mind off bossing Turbo around. This successfully distracted him and as soon as his ears went up I clicked. Being no dummy, when we started off again he immediately put his ears up and relaxed, which made Turbo relax, which made them fall into step for a moment and I clicked and gave a jackpot while praising them heartily. After that it was a whole new ballgame!



You could see the wheels turning in their little heads as they thought about how I always click them for being in step when we go on walks and how it was much easier to move together when tethered and next thing I knew they were very purposefully matching strides for entire sections of the arena at a time.



My jaw nearly hit the floor and five minutes later you couldn't have wiped the grin off my face with a brillo pad.

The header took off the lead and stepped away after the first time they started getting it so she took some pictures for me and I couldn't believe how in-step the boys were on their first drive. They look like mirror images!



Way better than I'd ever imagined they'd look as a pair. Usually the only sign of the second horse was a slice of Turbo's white rump showing over Kody's as he's a little higher in the rear than Kody is.

Long story short I got them out again last night with the help of my friend Amy Lacy (clickmini) so I could try on her pair harnesses before ordering my own and the boys were again outstanding. This time they had full harnesses so I put the yoke up front where it belongs and used nylon dog collars to tie the breeching together so they couldn't spin. That took a little more time to get used to (Kody didn't like being pulled around by the kid and Turbo thought the breeching made an excellent thing to try and scratch his itchy rump on) but they got it and we tried our first trot. I was too busy steering and keeping Kody from kicking and Turbo from trying to duck out backwards to pay attention to how they were moving but, well...see for yourselves.





Edited for correct video link:

.
What do you think, will they be a stellar pair or what??



Remember, they've had a total of maybe ten minutes ever hitched with another horse and Turbo isn't even driving yet! I drove them out of the arena hitched after we turned the camera off and they really got it, manuevering in tight circles around obstacles in the paddock and learning to enjoy lengthening stride to stay matched through the turns. Already they're thinking like a unit. Now if only they hadn't been trying to kill my header rubbing at the cloud of no-see-ums that were eating us alive....Sorry, Amy!





If the link doesn't work, let me know and I can fix it when I get home.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Jul 30, 2011)

Sorry to hear about your Grandma. I lost mine a few years ago and still get choked up about it once in a while.

You noticed that pair saddles need to be tighter than single harness saddles. We learned that this year as well.

They seem to be going well. We just put a new pair together this morning and the mare was VERY unhappy with Alax and kept expressing her opinion to him. What I finally deducted was that she was not used to the pole bumping her on the turns and thought it was Alax slamming into her. So just because you might get them over bickering now doesn't necessarily mean you are out of the water.

I HIGHLY suggest that if you can put your pair to Amy's Tadpole for the first hitching, you will be much happier with the result. Then you can tweak rein and trace adjustments without having to do vehicle adjustments as well. We were amazed at how much of pair driving is about the adjustments over a lot of other driving principles we have in single driving.

I also bet that you will be surprised how much steadier they will be put to the vehicle than line driving where you are always at a different rate than they are. Make sure you practice having them move off together at the voice command, or one horse will get bumped in the butt by the vehicle. (Maybe you are already doing that.)

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 30, 2011)

Thanks, Myrna!



Can you see the video?



RhineStone said:


> You noticed that pair saddles need to be tighter than single harness saddles. We learned that this year as well.


Interesting! The books all say the opposite and with the pairs harness instead of my jury-rigged setup I found the saddles could be quite loose. All pulling will be done from the breastcollar, all braking directly from the breeching to the breastcollar, and there are no tugs to pull the saddle over sideways. What have you found happens when yours aren't done tight enough? Mine only got pulled over because I had a direct connection between the top of each saddle for lack of a breastcollar for Turbo.



RhineStone said:


> What I finally deduced was that she was not used to the pole bumping her on the turns and thought it was Alax slamming into her. So just because you might get them over bickering now doesn't necessarily mean you are out of the water.


Oh, absolutely! I had intended to drive them in blinker bridles as a pair but it occurs to me now that this early introduction was in open bridles and went fairly well for that. I bet now that they know it's the other horse bumping them and pulling them around and are fine with it, they'll be more forebearing of strange sensations with the blinkers on. I know Kody is that way! He likes to see things and understand but once he knows what it is he doesn't mind if he can't actually see it anymore and I bet once he's blinkered he'll stop glaring at Turbo so much.







RhineStone said:


> I HIGHLY suggest that if you can put your pair to Amy's Tadpole for the first hitching, you will be much happier with the result. Then you can tweak rein and trace adjustments without having to do vehicle adjustments as well. We were amazed at how much of pair driving is about the adjustments over a lot of other driving principles we have in single driving.


I don't know if I'll be able to arrange that when the time comes but I agree it's a good idea. I hear you on the adjustment thing- the only pair saddles I've ever seen get pulled over were because of bad adjustments. The piecemeal trace carriers an individual I navigated for had hanging off her leather saddles were too short on one side so it pulled the saddle over when the traces went taut. She also had a problem with her horses being reluctant to back so I stepped off the vehicle to lighten the load while she practiced before her dressage test and the problem became apparent as I watched. Her holdbacks were way too loose so when the gelding went to back up his collar was pulled up his neck uncomfortably and he had nothing to shove against! That of course left the mare doing all the work so she wasn't happy about backing either. It took some coaxing to get her to let me adjust harness right before a major dressage test but the results were night and day and totally worth it.



RhineStone said:


> I also bet that you will be surprised how much steadier they will be put to the vehicle than line driving where you are always at a different rate than they are. Make sure you practice having them move off together at the voice command, or one horse will get bumped in the butt by the vehicle. (Maybe you are already doing that.)


I am.



I give a warning to whomever is standing furthest back or doesn't appear to be paying attention ("Turbo, ready?") and then give the team command ("Boys, walk on.") I'd think your pole should be long enough to ensure the horses don't get clipped when braking and therefore shouldn't hit a lagger when moving off but it certainly causes a lot of difficulties if they don't move off together. I've been surprised how quickly these two took to simultaneously walking and stopping. Their trot transitions were quite in sync right from the start!

It was funny, actually. The bugs were so bad by the time we got them going last night that Turbo was frantic and actually tried to stop and roll once while they were moving. I saw him thinking about it and headed him off before he got started but there was an awful lot of lagging back then rushing ahead for awhile and Kody did way better than I expected in dealing with it. He got annoyed if he thought Turbo was competing for my attention by being good, but if he was naughty Kody was determined to show what a good boy he was by comparison!



The good news is that Turbo got introduced to the concept of pressure on a breastcollar and breeching and dealt with it like a pro. He just followed Kody's lead and by the time they were done he'd learned to accept the constraints of the harness to the point that when he tried to turn and face me he felt the breeching on his outside hip and calmly stepped back over to stay parallel with Kody. That's a big step for him! He's fine with shafts but until now has gotten nervous when he realizes he can't turn around in them and I bet that will no longer be a problem.

Leia


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## drivin*me*buggy (Jul 30, 2011)

Leia,

Thanks for sharing the video. They are looking great



It's fun to see a video with your boys. Keep us updated! And holy cow is Kody's color intense.

Angie


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## ClickMini (Jul 31, 2011)

Great write up Leia! I must say I am very impressed with the boys. You are doing such a fantastic job with them!





Can't blame them for wanting to rub and roll last night. Honestly felt that way myself. Those dang little gnats were something else! I still feel like my skin is crawling!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 31, 2011)

drivin*me*buggy said:


> And holy cow is Kody's color intense.


That's because it's been so cold I never clipped him this year.



He's not quite as dark as he was the first year I had him when his mane and tail actually looked flaxen, but he's darker than he's been since 2004. I love it!



ClickMini said:


> Can't blame them for wanting to rub and roll last night. Honestly felt that way myself. Those dang little gnats were something else! I still feel like my skin is crawling!


They were truly terrible for some reason.



Hopefully the next time we play we can start earlier! It was fun to share the kids with you on their "native soil" and I'm glad they were (mostly) good. I love the way they nearly fight over who gets to get worked first.





Leia


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## bannerminis (Jul 31, 2011)

Leia I am so sorry to about your Grandma. I am sure she is watching you now with pride.

Your boys are doing so well and looks really well together. Love all the praise you give them. I am the same and Sunny works really well just off my voice alone.

Looking forward to more updates on your boys


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## Marsha Cassada (Jul 31, 2011)

Finally got to see it with the new link! Lots of information to think about.

Looking forward to following their progress.


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## Mominis (Jul 31, 2011)

:yeah I am SO happy for you Leia!!!!!



:yeah They look great!


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## RhineStone (Jul 31, 2011)

Yes, I saw the video, but I looked it up under your Screen Name (I was using the Ipod so maybe that is why the link didn't work.)

We find that the crossover rein has enough sideways pull to the saddles, especially with flat backed horses. They don't get pulled over far, but it is still enough that they aren't square. We don't have that with a single harness.

We hadn't line drove Flair and Alax together before we put them to, so she probably just didn't know that it was the pole that was bumping her and not Alax. It was the second time that she had been put to the Feel X but the first time was in a Unicorn behind Alax, so she probably had other things to think about before just following the butt in front of her. I think it is a good idea to line drive them first, especially if they are green. Flair isn't necessarily green. I bet the open bridle does help. We line drove our first pair before we put them to, and that mare (Skip) also tried to argue with Alax (who, BTW, doesn't do anything but his job, so it must be a mare or subordinate thing



.) Nevertheless, Flair either figured it out or tolerated it after a while. We could have put them to open bridles, but I really don't think that would be good for Alax. He is a blinder brilde type of horse. I actually trained Flair to the cart with an open bridle, and we changed to the blinder bridle after she was steady in the cart. Maybe we should just try it with Flair and see if she comprehends the pole better then.

When the pair doesn't move off together in the vehicle, it can make your heart skip a beat. Yes, you try to adjust the pole and the breeching, but there is still a lot of play in the collars compared to a single vehicle. And you also have the evener in some vehicles that adds to the play. Even Mary Ruth's pair of Sport Horses that we drove at Hickory Knoll CDE wouldn't move off together once in a while (they are very green), and when you see that vehicle come up on the horse that is standing still, well let's just say that is why you need your whip!



And then of course you have the back and forth of them not pulling together until they get it together. When they have more weight to pull, they tend to learn to work together faster because they have to (learned that from Mary Ruth). Yup, the more I learn about pairs (especially after driving the big pair), the more I shake my head at people who barely know how to drive who decide to put two horses together because it would be "cute".



It isn't necessarily more difficult to drive, but there is SO MUCH more there that can happen with the addition of more horses. You do get more horses worked at the same time, though! Chad loves that part!

Bugs are AWFUL here, and Chad has sprayed at least three times this summer. (He has a commercial spray license.) Ironically, the mosquitos (practically the Wisconsin state bird



) aren't so bad, but the Horse flies, Deer flies, and the gnats are! Most of the time when he sprays, we find that we will only see a couple bugs after that, but this year, it's more like a slight knockdown. We have gone through a lot of fly spray on the horses and have to make sure that we use the ear and eye stuff as well when we drive.

Myrna


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## MeganH (Jul 31, 2011)

I am sorry to hear about your grandmother.

I am a newbie here but I love your video of your boys. They looked great!


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## paintponylvr (Aug 1, 2011)

I'm sorry to hear about your grandmother... hopefully she's smiling down on your endeavors.

I loved the video! Did i get your writing correctly? you are clicking them? Soooo.... you started them driving using clicker training? hMMM... Something to think about. But how do you do the treats when you are in the cart? or wagon?

Yes - I really liked my team learning to pull WEIGHT w/o wheels. That did more to get them stepping together than the ground driving did. We are doing lots of practicing - starting and stopping - togehter.

Another way to keep them together (at least at first) would be to attach a line between their heads. You can hook them to the bit or from halter on one to bit on other or halter to halter. I'm not sure if this is done much with horses that are pleasure driven or while training for cde's but it wouldn't hurt to get started. However, it looks like your boys are started out doing great. I'm still not sure how long to adjust the line - I've had it too long and too short for what I've been doing. It's another way to keep them together when working as a team - especially while they are green


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 1, 2011)

Thanks everyone for the comments about my grandmother. The funny thing is she was terrified of horses so always regarded me (lovingly) as a little strange for being so obsessed with mine.



I arrived for a three day visit the night before she ended up passing away and found her unusually wide awake so in our meandering conversation I did end up telling her about how Turbo was coming and my hopes of driving them as a pair around the neighborhood with reindeer antlers and bells on for Christmas and she actually smiled at me and admitted that might be pretty cute.



It gave me warm fuzzies.



bannerminis said:


> Your boys are doing so well and looks really well together. *Love all the praise you give them.* I am the same and Sunny works really well just off my voice alone.


I definitely go a little over the top with praise when they're learning new things. So much of their attitude about an activity later depends on their introduction that first time! Kody especially revels in sincere praise so I make sure when he's done well he knows how proud I am of him. His eyes light up and he'll work all the harder the next time. And for Turbo it was a big deal to work beside Kody so bravely and to listen to me when he was unsure so I made a big fuss over him too.







RhineStone said:


> We find that the crossover rein has enough sideways pull to the saddles, especially with flat backed horses. They don't get pulled over far, but it is still enough that they aren't square. We don't have that with a single harness.
> You do get more horses worked at the same time, though! Chad loves that part!


Ah, that makes sense. I agree- half my reason for wanting to do this is so I don't have to leave one horse behind every time I work them or try to choose who gets worked in the limited time I have each day! I can see why it's so important to keep working pair horses single, but at least I'll have the option of taking both.



paintponylvr said:


> I loved the video! Did i get your writing correctly? you are clicking them? Soooo.... you started them driving using clicker training? hMMM... Something to think about. But how do you do the treats when you are in the cart? or wagon?


Yes. I never used to use clicker work with a bridle on because I never needed to- Kody's a natural and release of pressure with praise worked just fine. I started doing lateral maneuvers with him in-hand though and when I tried to transfer it to bridle-work I had to click him to get him to understand what I wanted. The baby is used to the clicker in all his training so it didn't make sense to me to stop using it for the biggest, most important stuff.





I make sure I wash their bits after each drive and raise the standards constantly so while before Turbo was getting clicked for everything because it was all new, now he has to work pretty hard to get a goody. I've also been careful that after every click he gets praise and petting before the food so those are all linked together in his head. By the time he's driving in the cart all the basic skills should be old hat to him and no longer worthy of that "you got it!" click so in short- hopefully I won't have to get out of the cart to give anyone goodies!



But it's VERY useful right now for getting them to focus on what I want them to accomplish instead of how weird it feels to be attached to another horse. It reminds them that the only way to get the prize is to play the game together!







paintponylvr said:


> Another way to keep them together (at least at first) would be to attach a line between their heads. You can hook them to the bit or from halter on one to bit on other or halter to halter. I'm not sure if this is done much with horses that are pleasure driven or while training for cde's but it wouldn't hurt to get started.


IMO it might be very harmful indeed- at least for my two! I've been known to tie their leadlines together when we're taking a walk because Turbo's is a lot shorter than Kody's and it makes it easier to handle them but Kody's a real "brace- and pull-"er and his natural response to lead pressure is to lock his jaw and start pulling with his neck. I can get him to stop it but I'd hate to have him try that on the baby.

I also wouldn't want to risk one of them getting yanked in the mouth because the other horse swung his head sideways at a bug or something. At least right now once they're beside each other the reins act evenly and both horses are bending and flexing nicely. I've spent so long training them to give to pressure that I think a connection between their heads would just confuse them and teach all the wrong lessons.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Aug 2, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> she actually smiled at me and admitted that might be pretty cute.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ClickMini (Aug 2, 2011)

Well, I use clicker training for everything. And on my new driving horses I start them in a Jerald Runabout. I am able to step out to give them a treat. And I do. I think it is perfectly safe, when done the way I do. The horses are well-versed in clicker work, they are listening carefully for the click, and when it happens they stop immediately and wait for me to come to them. This is important to understand though, that these horses have a huge reinforcement history through clicker training before I ever put them to a cart. The foundation exercises have been perfected: targeting, backing, head-lowering, happy faces, stand politely, mat work. They have lateral work in-hand. Only then, do I even think about a cart.

I also somewhat disagree with Leia about petting and praise before the treat. Although Leia is a very good trainer, and learned a lot of what she does from me, this feels to me like a way to kind of bridge the gap between traditional negative reinforcement and what I do. The biggest reinforcer in the world that I know of is food. Petting and praise are very nice, but these guys are not thinking about that when they are seeking a click. They are thinking about food. I know this, because when you click you can bet that horse immediately starts chewing, LOL. It is definitely Pavlovian-style conditioning. Once I click, I deliver a treat to them as quickly as possible. It is very important to keep your hand out of the goodie bag UNTIL AFTER you click. Not even moving your hand toward it. And when you deliver the treat, put it where you want your horse's nose to be. You would be amazed at what you can build in your horse's balance and posture, just using the way you deliver the treat.

I just wanted to add a video link or two for people who don't really see what benefit it would be to include clicker training the way it is taught and practiced by Alex Kurland (mentor to many of us) to your driving training. This video is presented by a gal I know, Sola, with her mule. You will see a lot of dressage in-hand work here, which produces so much quality and control in the movement of the animal. That being said, I would like you to note the slack in the line at all times, yet there is communication happening like you wouldn't believe. I have this kind of connection with my Esprit. I can get him to do shoulder-in lateral work in self-carriage on a loose rein in a blinker bridle (he can't see me). The first time Leia saw that she asked, "How do you DO that???" The answer is energy and communication. He knows what I am thinking, because I have absolute clarity, he has an iron-clad reinforcement history, and he is LISTENING to me. I will try to get some video myself sometime soon.

You can see how Sola has taught Umber how to build collection to a high degree by breaking it down into component parts.



And here is a good friend of mine Debra, with her Tennessee Walker, Magic. Look at the videos on this page for equine pilates and spanish walk. This horse was never bred for high collection. Pay attention to the halts. There is complete engagement. This is truly self-carriage. Can you see how this can create a most incredible driving horse? You can trust me on this, a horse trained at this level is completely safe to get out of a cart and give a treat to.

http://equineclickermagic.com/videos.html

Sorry for the hijack, Leia. But I want people to see that you do NOT need to compartmentalize when you do clicker training. It isn't I use clicker training for this, but not for that. You will note in these videos that the clicks are few and far between. The horses find this movement in balance to be quite self-reinforcing. They have also had duration built into the behaviors. Yet they are also working for the communication of the click, saying either "Yes! That is what I want." or "Yes! That was an outstanding effort on this already learned behavior." And they are rewarded immediately for that click, with a small bit of food.

Basically, I think Leia is 100% on the right track with her horses, and I hope that her videos and writing will inspire others to use this type of training for their own horses.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 2, 2011)

Thanks for the videos, Amy. They're really neat and I got some good ideas from them on places I'd been "stuck." Not to mention some new local contacts I want to check out!







ClickMini said:


> I also somewhat disagree with Leia about petting and praise before the treat. ... The biggest reinforcer in the world that I know of is food. Petting and praise are very nice, but these guys are not thinking about that when they are seeking a click. They are thinking about food. ... Once I click, I deliver a treat to them as quickly as possible.


I understand what you're saying completely and you're right- they are working for food. The problem for me, personally, is that there are some times and places where I may not have food available and I want those horses to still have a positive reinforcer and continue to work for me. They will not offer new behaviors and engage as actively in learning without a food reward, but I have found that at least for my two the act of pairing the food reward with praise and pats seems to tangle them all together in their heads so when I praise without food they still get that happy glow inspired by the click and know they did well.

I do not delay the food reward for this- the sequence would be behavior, click, praise as the horse stops to get the food, a couple good firm pats on the neck with one hand as I get the food out, another couple pats on the neck while they chew. It's all very quick and seems to work for us. Turbo used to be all about the food, now he responds to praise as a "getting hotter" signal and knows a click is only for truly outstanding work.



ClickMini said:


> That being said, I would like you to note the slack in the line at all times, yet there is communication happening like you wouldn't believe. I have this kind of connection with my Esprit. I can get him to do shoulder-in lateral work in self-carriage on a loose rein in a blinker bridle (he can't see me). The first time Leia saw that she asked, "How do you DO that???" The answer is energy and communication. He knows what I am thinking, because I have absolute clarity, he has an iron-clad reinforcement history, and he is LISTENING to me.


Well, the answer was also John Lyons bridlework.



I had the energy and the connection, at least with Kody, but no idea how to teach the specific behavior until you showed me! I am still so grateful for that. You and Esprit are doing some amazing work just like the horses in your videos and I'm excited to bring my two along in your footsteps.



ClickMini said:


> Sorry for the hijack, Leia. But I want people to see that you do NOT need to compartmentalize when you do clicker training. It isn't I use clicker training for this, but not for that. You will note in these videos that the clicks are few and far between.


I getcha, and I know it isn't necessary to compartmentalize. But I choose to as carrying that bag of food around gets really annoying sometimes and there are times (like in an obstacle in hand class or a dressage test) where I cannot click and treat. Building duration into behaviors is one of my weak spots in clicker training and I need a lot more education in it. For me it's easiest to use clicker training to introduce new things and work through patterns of resistance and once the horse understands what I'm asking they are sort of "weaned" onto a more traditional reward system. Maybe that's wrong but I've never claimed to be an expert or even a clicker trainer- I'm just someone who uses clicker training as one of the things in my toolbox!



I hope that, as in other areas, I will improve and grow over the years and you've always been a tremendous help with that.

Leia


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## ClickMini (Aug 2, 2011)

> But I choose to as carrying that bag of food around gets really annoying sometimes and there are times (like in an obstacle in hand class or a dressage test) where I cannot click and treat.


Once your horse is conversant in training loops and behavior chains, this will not be any sort of issue.



:BigGrin

But that is a discussion for another day.


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## LazyRanch (Aug 5, 2011)

I am utterly intrigued with the idea of click training and am going to have to look into it. But the discussion on treats is a great issue. I am a big treater for certain things - breaking and backing horses being a biggie. But generally, when riding, I tend not to treat until after a ride, or on a picnic. I have always been very "physical" with my horses - lots of pets and rubs, with both hands and legs. I have been told by several trainers that one can always tell "my" horses: they will tip their heads back to have their ears pulled!

Obviously that cannot happen in harness - although, I will say, in the HyperBike, I do frequently lean forward and give PJ a rump hug, particularly when he has faced down something really scary. I think it lets him know that he isn't alone and there is (literally) backup. Our other mini, Rascal had to make several adjustments when he came to live with us: no palace stall, breeching, the HyperBike, not being the STAR, and off road trail driving. Some adjustments have been better made than others. Sadly, the rump hug has NOT been one of them.



I don't know what they do, or how they train arena horses, but I would have thought things going on behind the horse would have been geared toward good, rather than reasons to flee. (Rascal had de-rimmed tyres twice now, one from the EE and one from the 'Bike, trying to flee) Clicking for him is definitely out - kind of works like projectile vomiting: fast forward and immediate.

But I have finally got him to accept a little scratch from the butt end of my whip. He will actually tip his head back in a lineup, to see if I have reversed my whip to give him a scratch just above the crupper. I wait until the judge has handed off his/her card, then give him that treat. Several people have mentioned that I do it before the results, but I figure, if Rascal and I finish the class with our hair on, that's reason enough for a reward. Also, twice in my life, I have shown horses - Rascal being one - who were so show savvy that they knew if they were NOT the first horse out of the line up, they had not won the class. In both cases, the head would lower, ears would droop, and when their number was called, it was actually a job to get them to leave the line up. I find that giving that little "treat" lets them know how proud I am of them.


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## susanne (Aug 5, 2011)

I suppoose that what I do is not "textbook" Alexandra Kurland clicker training, but it works.

After introducing the click and treat, I intersperse treat with scritches and "good boy"s. I started this with clipping and found it greatly reduced attempts at mugging. They know when they're doing what I want and that overall good behavior will bring both verbal and edible rewards.

With this approach, clicking while driving is entirely doable. Of course, Mingus has his "magic" words of praise, which he seems to relish as much as any treat -- "YOU'RE BEAUTIFUL, MINGUS!"


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 5, 2011)

LazyRanch said:


> Our other mini, Rascal had to make several adjustments when he came to live with us: no palace stall, breeching, the HyperBike, not being the STAR, and off road trail driving. Some adjustments have been better made than others. Sadly, the rump hug has NOT been one of them.
> 
> 
> 
> I don't know what they do, or how they train arena horses, but I would have thought things going on behind the horse would have been geared toward good, rather than reasons to flee. (Rascal had de-rimmed tyres twice now, one from the EE and one from the 'Bike, trying to flee) *Clicking for him is definitely out - kind of works like projectile vomiting: fast forward and immediate. *


What an image!



Projectile vomiter or not, I'd say that actually makes him an excellent candidate for clicking as those sort of act first, think later behaviors are the ones I've had the best luck derailing through clicker work. Nothing else takes them out of their fear loop quite as effectively as the purely positive, focus-on-food, engage-the-brain clicker cycle. It would be fun to discuss Rascal's situation in its own thread!



LazyRanch said:


> Also, twice in my life, I have shown horses - Rascal being one - who were so show savvy that they knew if they were NOT the first horse out of the line up, they had not won the class. In both cases, the head would lower, ears would droop, and when their number was called, it was actually a job to get them to leave the line up.


Aww.



At our shows the first one out is the lowest placed horse so mine only get excited if they're the last one out. Well, Kody at least. Turbo hasn't really had a chance to learn that yet.





What he has learned in the last several days however is to drag PVC pipes and how to pull! I'm so proud of him and am finally getting more of a sense of who he really is and what his strengths and weaknesses are going to be.



I knew he'd get stubborn when he fixates on something (kicking when you touch his lower rump area as a yearling, fighting clipping on his legs as a two year old, and this year once he bucks and the breeching slaps him in the rump on the lunge line he'll start rhythmic bronc-style bucking with a mulish expression and won't stop until distracted) but I'm figuring out that it's much more about a mental fixation then the actual thing he's fighting at the time. He could care less about having his legs clipped for instance, he just gets into resistance mode and you can't get him out of it! The minute you break the cycle he's a pussy cat and you can clip to your heart's content. So when he starts his "How DARE that breeching slap me back?!" mode I just insist he move forward and click him for trotting out calmly and all is well.

I've been tempted to keep him at that sort of basic work until he gets over it because if he can't accept it on a lunge line he has no business in a cart, right? I still believe that but I'm also learning that he actually does much better once he's "put to work" as he stops fixating on the equipment for lack of other mental stimulation and once he understands that the equipment is part of the job he enjoys, he accepts it completely. He was confused by the bit until I started working him off it, then he understood it had a purpose and the resistance melted. He hates the breeching hitting him ("How DARE it hit me back when I kick at it?!") so he tries to stand up to it with his new-found confidence.



And yet when I hitch him pair with Kody he had absolutely no objection to being goosed by the breeching or pulled on the breast collar or anything else. The day after the bucking fit I tied a giant plastic garbage bag almost bigger than he is to his backstrap and had him lunge with that draped over his rump and after some initial anxiety he couldn't have cared less. It's not like this colt is spooky! He just does much better when he's got a task to do instead of being allowed to focus on the new thing until he's obsessed with it.

Yesterday I found the positive side of that ability to mono-focus. Remembering the lesson of "He does better when ground-driven" I decided that even though he hadn't done very well when I tried to lead him in between the cart shafts last week (I had a helper walk beside us and hold it in the tug loops as I led Turbo) I would try moving to what I'd normally consider the next step and ground-drive him in a similar situation. After ground-driving him with the PVC drags again, I had a helper hold them up along his sides and let him feel them against his shoulder and upper hip on a turn. To my surprise he not only didn't hesitate, I could see him thinking his way through it and when he followed the rein cues and moved his shoulder into it for the click his eyes positively lit up! After that he was all glee and eagerness, happily shoving his way past the poles and clearly enjoying every minute of it. I was very impressed!

Since he mastered that lesson so quickly and we still had lots of time I decided to try another one and had the helper drop the poles and hold the traces instead. He hesitated once the first time he hit it, more a prompt response to what he thought was a cue to halt rather than any uncertainty, but moved off as soon as I asked him to and never hesitated again. It took him about 2.3 seconds to decide "Mom said move forward into the pressure so no matter what, I'm to move forward. Got it!" After that it didn't matter how much she leaned on those traces, he just put his ears up, his head down, and proceeded to plow through it.

So lesson learned: If I can just convince him it's part of his job, task-oriented Turbo is going to be the kind to move heaven and earth to do what I ask. Kody does the same but it's more on heart- doing it because he'll do anything to please me. It's really a good feeling to finally discover more about what makes my second horse tick and to know that between the two of them I've got some pretty awesome driving partners.



I'm going to spend another week reiterating the drag pole, pulling and breeching lessons and then if he seems ready I'll try the cart.

I'm rushing things a bit to make the goal I set a year ago of having him driving by the 2011 ocean trip but I think he's up to the challenge and I won't push him past what he can do without stress. As Leonard Bernstein, composer and conductor, once said, "To accomplish great things, two things are necessary: a plan, and not quite enough time."





Leia


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## bannerminis (Aug 5, 2011)

Those videos are excellent. I have never tried clicker training and not sure where I would start. Would be very interested though.


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