# I think we have foundered



## krissy3

My mare that I have been trying to get weight off of has foundered ( I think) For the past 2 weeks I have reduced her hay , and given her only a short amount of time on the pasture. To complicate things even more , our Farrier trimmed her too short about 3 weeks ago and she has been lame . there is still pink bruising on all four hooves around the coronet band, that appeared a day after the trim. It looks to me like her hooves have changed form ( maybe I am imagining it ) but the toes look real long and it looks like the heels are virtually not evrn there, all of this since the last horrific trim that left all 4 horses lame for about 2 weeks. This morning she was not interested in her hay , but did nibble a bit, she was walking very slowely , and stiff. Her legs were trembling a little and she was a little cooler then the other pony. I imediatly put her in the sand round pen , with just a little bit of straw , and took the green hay away. She has been in there for most of the morning and seems a bit better. she has 3 umbrellas , water and a little straw to chew on.....was this the right thing to do? thinking the sand will feel better on her feet then the dirt ground. I wont be calling the vet , because we are in an isolated area without shetlands and the vets have very little nohow on shetlands , they are cow and sheep vets. Looking back Quelly had this same reaction last year in late spring , I did call the vet and he just picked a small stone from the hoof that he found and said that was the problem , but I always felt that the problem was a lot more complex than that... the horse was lame , cold and shivering. At that time last year I put her in the stall for 2 days on a little straw and grass hay and she was ok after that.... Now , that being said, and the fact that we have had sunny days , and rainey nights , and there is a lot of new grass that grew quickly , i am thinking she has foundered, and that she did last year too. Would you agree? I have bute, straw, mountain grass hay, a stall in a non grass small pasture , a roundpen with sand also in this small non grass pasture. These are the things I have to work with... The gate to the pasture is locked until further notice for the ponys. With these things, what would you do in this case? This is what i have to work with ... vet not being an option. I was afraid to bute her this morning , I dont like to use bute.


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## Minimor

If she has foundered, the hoof trim you describe probably isn't helping her any. short heels/long toes is only going to make the situation worse. I'm not saying the heels should be built up, but the hoof needs to be in balance. Long toes will make it harder for her to break over, and breakover is something that is problematic enough for a horse with laminitis. If her feet are trimmed overly short then there will be nothing you can do just yet; if the heels are too short but the toes are still too long then she could have the toes trimmed back a bit to try & balance the hoof better.

The soft sand will be better than hard ground.


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## JourneysEnd

That doesn't sound like founder to me but you could have laminitis. Could also be an abscess forming.

Check the digital pulse. Are all 4 the same or is the pulse more pronounced in one or two legs ?

Are there deep lines in the hoof just below the coronary band ? If so are they straight or wavy ?

Yes, sand is good either way. Try soaking the feet in cool (not cold) water.

Bute is okay, just be careful to dose correctly.

Hay is fine even if it is laminitis.

You may need a new farrier or better yet, learn to trim your own. If you'd like to trim your own horses, I'll be happy to give you info and post some pictures.

Vickie


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## Alex

JourneysEnd said:


> That doesn't sound like founder to me but you could have laminitis. Could also be an abscess forming.Check the digital pulse. Are all 4 the same or is the pulse more pronounced in one or two legs ?
> 
> Are there deep lines in the hoof just below the coronary band ? If so are they straight or wavy ?
> 
> Yes, sand is good either way. Try soaking the feet in cool (not cold) water.
> 
> Bute is okay, just be careful to dose correctly.
> 
> Hay is fine even if it is laminitis.
> 
> You may need a new farrier or better yet, learn to trim your own. If you'd like to trim your own horses, I'll be happy to give you info and post some pictures.
> 
> Vickie


I was always told that Founder and laminitis is the same thing. Is there a difference?


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## JMS Miniatures

Not sure if she has foundered or not but she sounds like she is in quite a bit of pain. I would get some banamine or something to her asap. Also those toes need to be hacked off, cause if they don't she is never going to grow any heel and she will just wear down that heel. The sand will help, but I would also pack her feet and put vet wrap. Your vet may beable to atleast help with that. But if this has been going on for some time I would find a different farrier.

Had a mare did the exact same thing, but she didn't founder on food, she became lame because she was trimmed too short. So we packed her feet and wetted down her pen to put her in the mud. If your mares feet are really hot to the touch yeah she has become lame or foundered.


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## chandab

Alex said:


> JourneysEnd said:
> 
> 
> 
> That doesn't sound like founder to me but you could have laminitis. Could also be an abscess forming.Check the digital pulse. Are all 4 the same or is the pulse more pronounced in one or two legs ?
> 
> Are there deep lines in the hoof just below the coronary band ? If so are they straight or wavy ?
> 
> Yes, sand is good either way. Try soaking the feet in cool (not cold) water.
> 
> Bute is okay, just be careful to dose correctly.
> 
> Hay is fine even if it is laminitis.
> 
> You may need a new farrier or better yet, learn to trim your own. If you'd like to trim your own horses, I'll be happy to give you info and post some pictures.
> 
> Vickie
> 
> 
> 
> I was always told that Founder and laminitis is the same thing. Is there a difference?
Click to expand...

They are essentially the same, although usually the term founder is used for when the coffin bone rotates. Laminitis is technically inflammation of the laminae, if it gets bad enough to separate, then you have founder.

I have three laminitic horses, oops make that 4, I recently inherited a gelding with it; but only one for sure has founder, as she was x-rayed and showed rotation. [Two were due to feed and two were due to illness. All are doing quite well now, despite losing my farrier back in December and not having a replacement.]


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## Dent Kickapoo Kitty

I pulled this off a website

What is laminitis and founder?

Equine laminitis is a vascular disease associated with areas of ischemia or hemostasis within the laminae. The laminae secure the coffin bone/distal phalanx to the hoof wall. Inflammation associated with delamination interferes with the wall/bone bond. In advanced laminitis, the coffin bone becomes detached from the horny wall and may rotate or sink. In lay terms, this is known as “founder,” from the maritime term meaning to sink.

Symptoms/diagnosis of laminitis and founder

Three phases of laminitis in horses are identifiable: developmental, acute and chronic.

Developmental laminitis

This phase defines the period between the initiation of factors that result in delamination, and the emergence of clinical lameness. While owners are unable to identify possible laminitis at this stage, a vigilant veterinarian who knows what breeds and conditions present risk factors, will initiate appropriate therapies. (See Horses at Risk for Laminitis.)

Since pre-existing illness leads to laminitis, the symptoms of early laminitis are also the symptoms of the precipitating illness. Digital pulses and distal limb temperatures may be increased or decreased but no lameness is evident.

Occasionally, no development phase can be recognized; the horse is simply found to be in the acute phase with no apparent ill health preceding or accompanying it.

Acute laminitis

This may be defined as the period between the clinical onset of lameness and the stabilization of laminar degeneration/breakdown. It may be as short as 8 – 12 hours’ duration if the horse is exposed to black walnut shavings, or 30 – 40 hours in the case of carbohydrate overload. (See Etiology of Laminitis.)

Symptoms of the primary illness will be present along with lameness — usually in the front feet. On occasion, all four feet will be affected. When the forelimbs are affected, the horse will shift weight to the back legs, with the front legs extended. This is the typical “founder stance.” In response to the pain associated with the condition, the horse may refuse to stand or walk. In the early stages, identifying the condition may require turning the horse in a circle, preferably on a hard surface. An affected horse’s gait is typically short with rapid foot placement, hence the term “walking on eggshells.”

At this stage, the digital pulse will be increased and the hoof will have an elevated temperature. There will be pain when the toe is compressed with hoof testers and there may be a depression of the skin proximal to the wall of the hoof, suggesting rotation or sinking of the distal phalanx.

At this stage, it is wise to X-ray the hoof, for baseline purposes, and to determine the position of the distal phalanx relative to the hoof capsule.

Acute laminitis occurs anywhere from 24 – 72 hours after the initial damage to the basement membrane and causes considerable pain. An affected horse may refuse to stand, and have increased breathing and pulse rates in response to pain.

Chronic laminitis

This occurs when displacement of the distal phalanx has taken place but no active laminar necrosis is present. Horses with this condition are likely to get recurrent episodes of acute laminitis.

Abnormal growth of the hoof may be present. When the dorsal laminae are affected, diverging rings may be noted around the hoof wall. These will be wider at the heel than the toe, indicating that growth at the toe is slower than the heel.

The degree of lameness present depends on the use of the horse and quality of care.

Radiological changes at this stage will include improper alignment of the distal phalanx and hoof wall combined with the remodeling and osteolysis of the distal phalanx.

Etiology/pathology of laminitis and founder

Many seemingly unrelated causes can give rise to laminitis. To date, no one has pinpointed the precise mechanism by which specific health factors generate the conditions that cause separation and degeneration of the laminae.

Causal factors of laminitis include the following:

Excess of carbohydrates. (Too much grain, lush pasture.)

Excessive weight, particularly unilateral weight. Draft horses are particularly prone to laminitis.

GI problems and stress/shock, including:

enteritis, intestinal occlusion

colitis, peritonitis

metritis, retained placenta

pneumonia/pleuritis

Management factors:

prolonged transportation

excessive work on hard surfaces

bedding containing black walnut shavings

ingestion of cold water when the horse is overheated

Endocrine abnormalities:

Cushing’s syndrome (hyperadrenocorticism)

insulin resistance (equine metabolic syndrome)

hypothyroidism

administration of glucocorticoid drugs

Renal problems

Immune disorders

Respiratory problems

Treatment for laminitis and founder

The earlier treatment for laminitis is initiated, the better. If laminitis is suspected, or the horse has been exposed to a risk factor (e.g. carbohydrate overload, shock, black walnut shavings), treatment should begin immediately.

Treatments for laminitis vary according to the severity of the condition but include:

Encouraging the horse to lie down to relieve pressure on the hoof/hooves.

Imposing dietary restrictions to prevent overeating and obesity.

Treating with mineral oil via a nasogastric tube to purge the horse’s digestive tract. This will limit the absorption of bacterial toxins, especially if the horse has overeaten.

Administering fluids if the horse is ill or dehydrated.

Administering drugs and/or natural medicines, such as antibiotics to fight infection, anti-endotoxins to reduce bacterial toxicity, anticoagulants and vasodilators to improve blood flow to the feet. (Corticosteroids are contraindicated for laminitis as they can cause it to worsen.)

Administration of painkillers. Since moderate to intense pain often accompanies laminitis and founder, the veterinarian will likely prescribe painkillers and/or anti-inflammatories for the horse. These may include NSAIDs.

Use of a magnetic hoof pad. This recently introduced treatment is believed to increase local circulation and help relieve pain.

Stabling the horse on soft ground, such as sand or shavings.

Opening and draining of any abscesses that may develop.

Co-operation with the horse’s farrier. (Corrective shoeing is often very effective, particularly in preventing founder.)

Early treatment of the primary problem. (A delay of even a few hours can literally be the difference between continued healthy living and euthanasia.)

Horses at risk for laminitis and founder

The following risk factors exist for laminitis and founder:

Horses on a high grain diet

Ponies

Heavy breeds, such as draft breeds (large body weight)

Overweight horses

Unrestricted grain intake (if the horse breaks into the feed area, for example)

Horses on lush pasture

Preventing laminitis and founder

Laminitis is a disease that is avoidable when proper horse management is practised consistently.

Horse owners wishing to prevent the condition should observe the following:

Avoid feeding excesses and keep the horse at a reasonable weight.

Watch for and avoid grass blooms on pastures. Pull the horse off the fields and onto a dry lot if necessary. Feed hay in the morning and turn the horse out after dew has evaporated from the grass.

Keep grain in closed bins and the door to the feed room closed.

Give the horse unlimited access to fresh, clean water, except immediately after exercise, when the amount should be regulated.

Make changes to routines slowly and progressively, to avoid stress.

We had to put Sere down due to her foundering


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