# Resources for learning proper driving etiquette and safety



## KellyAlaska (Apr 6, 2011)

I was hoping someone could recommend a few good resources that would give me a good safety and show etiquette foundation. If you know of any good books, magazines, videos, websites ect please let me know.

Thanks,

Kelly


----------



## Margo_C-T (Apr 6, 2011)

An excellent question, Kelly! I don't feel particularly qualified to respond, but a few possibilities occur to me.

You could try reading the ADS(American Driving Society)rules; I didn't join this year due to financial constraints, but I *think* that the rules are available online to everyone again(awhile back, you had to be a member to access them, but I *think* that has changed...?).They may take a bit of 'wading through', but do contain valuable material/things to know for serious-minded whips(what a driver is known as).

You might also try looking for material related to the Carriage Assoc. of America; am sure they have a website. It is another association for serious pleasure drivers of all kinds, or so it appears to me. It has a good reputation.

In some areas, it is really 'the rules of the road'/common courtesy! For instance...not cutting someone off by ducking in front of them too closely after passing, and maintaining a reasonable/safe distance when following. Specific to the show ring...not taking and STAYING on an 'inside' track...this tends to 'hide' drivers who are properly staying out on the rail from the judge's view. You can and should pass(on the left) if you need to--for instance, if your horse is naturally covering more ground at the requested gait than another--but once you have safely passed and are a reasonable distance ahead of the turnout you passed, you should return to the rail. Not specific to the show ring...in any group of horses, you should not 'take off' at a rapid gait w/o at LEAST warning others first. You need to pay attention to where your whip is(at our State Fair a few years ago, a serious incident which resulted in several damaged rigs and injured horses and drivers(properly known as 'whips'),was instigatedT when one person thoughtlessly allowed her long-lashed whip to 'dangle' backwards and when she brought it forward, the lash spooked another hitched horse in close proximity--and a chain reaction began!)You should not tie up a hitched horse at any show or similar organized event(at least, not in the 'light horse' driving world.) At ADS events, you will be asked to leave the premises if you remove the bridle from a horse that is hooked to a vehicle;this is a primary SAFETY concern.

These are just a few basics that immediately come to mind...am sure others will chime in. Hope this is of some help!

Margo


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Apr 7, 2011)

The latest Miniature Hrose World advertises a dvd put out by AMHA. You can go to their site or call about it. The dvd is $36.

Since they are now teamed with ADS they featured Driver's Ed on the Web.

www.americandrivingsociety.org/webinars.asp

It seems as though every issue of the World has more and more about driving in it.


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

"Reinsmanship" is probably one of the least "studied" driving topics out there, meaning I don't think that anyone has wrote one sole resource about it. There are books and articles that touch on the subject, but to my knowledge not one that addresses it specifically. That is probably why it has been a bit of a "mystery" to me up until about recent years, when left to fend on my own, I _somewhat_ figured it out.




Yes, the ADS rulebook is available online.

Margo has already brought up some good aspects of good driving, especially "rules of the road"/common courtesy. I would add that there is a bit a _common sense_ added to that. And car driving is not unlike carriage driving. When Margo mentions not staying on the inside track, I look at it like staying in the passing lane, but not passing. Tacky! Once you've passed who you needed to pass, go back in the "slow lane" and get out of the way! If you have a big moving horse, be one of the first in the arena so you don't have to pass all the other horses as soon as you get in there. Passing is much like passing in a car, it is not the safest place to be, so do it quickly and get it over with, but don't cut off who you pass.

And parading around the judge is poor form, just like a teenage kid "scamming" on "the strip", driving his convertable up and down the same road, trying to see who notices him! This actually isn't a good way to "show your horse" anyway, as you can't actually ever get a "good trot" when you are driving in small circles. I actually saw an Andalusian breed show driver do this at a carriage show, and he didn't place. It drove those of us watching crazy, because we wanted to see his nice-moving horse trot big on the rail, but he kept doing these pathetic circles around the judge like "look at meeee!!". Rediculous. The judge also can't see you well when you are right in his face. If I were the judge, I would have said something to him in lineup like, "I wanted to place your nice horse, but I couldn't ever see him trot out since he wasn't on the rail."

Obviously, tailgaiting is bad, and yelling, talking loudly or whistling to your horse is not appropriate.

"Slamming" on the brakes is poor form. There is a gentleman who my husband has shown with who now Chad tries to avoid being behind in the ring. When the walk is called, this turnout comes down so fast that Spider has practically kissed the back of his carriage! It's also not what the judges like to see, as the horse ends up being thrown on the forehand when they come down too fast.

On the postive note, good drivers are looking around to their next corner of the arena, not just between their horse's ears. You don't look at the hood ornament while drive a car. Drivers who place well in Reinsmanship aren't having to "micromanage" their horse because they have already practiced enough that they don't have to "watch" the horse the whole class. They can concentrate on where they are going. That is one of those things I have just figured out over the past couple of years, because before that, I would be so busy watching to see if my horse would spook at something, have his nose out, etc. Now that we have worked enough, I don't have to worry about such things and can just enjoy the class (I never thought that was possible a few years ago, and couldn't figure out how some people could even remember to smile during their class).

When you are looking up, you can see if you are approaching a pile up of turnouts and can take actions to avoid a crowded section of the ring. You can see if you are approaching your best competition, and go somewhere else so the judge can't compare you REALLY easily. Or if your Strong Trot is the best gait your horse has, maybe you do pass your competition to show the judge that gait. If you have a small horse compared to the rest of the class, stay as far out on the rail as possible, so that the rest of the class can pass you.

When line up is called, come in off the rail straight to your spot at a 90 degree angle to the rail, not zig zagging or on a diagonal path. That means if the line up is facing the south and you are on the east rail going to the right, you need to go all the way around the arena before finding your spot in line up off the north rail. However, if everyone else happened to line up quickly, don't make everyone wait for you to parade all the way around. If there is room and you are the last turnout, double back and find your spot on the east end of the lineup. Again, this is where common sense comes in to play.

If you have a fussy horse, don't stand in the middle of line up and make everyone else fussy. Go find a spot on the end. I did this with Alax his first show. He would not stand still to save his life. We did circles on the ends of the line up for the first two classes. The third class, I couldn't get a spot on the end, but there was a giant hole in the middle, so I took a deep breath and ended up there. Ironically, when he stopped, he looked to the left and then to the right, took a deep breath and realized that there were "friends" in the arena, and he hasn't wiggled since.






From then on, I made sure that we got a spot in the middle. So, drive them enough that you get to know your horse.

When you exit the arena, keep moving and bring your "fan club" with you so people can get in and out of the gate. You usually have a feeling like, "It's over with, I can now relax", but you need to keep driving until you get out of the way. If you win, great! Don't rub it in other people's noses. If you lose, consider next time, but don't whine, cry, yell, smack your horse (unless he has ACTUALLY been naughty), jerk on the reins, etc. I find that my success is DIRECTLY correlated with how much I practice or how far along my horse is. If you didn't win, it technically isn't your horse's or your mother's or your husband's fault. It may not even be your fault if the competition is just that stiff. Accept praise and take criticism gracefully. And most importantly, asking genuine question of or lavishing complements on your fellow competitors is a way to make the competition fun for everybody.

Myrna


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

I thought of a couple more....show to the end. Even when the placings are in, keep your posture and be ready for your horse to move, especially when the other horses start to walk off to be pinned. Don't drop your hands on your knees and start chatting with the neighbors, and heaven forbid if you do that BEFORE the placings are in. This shows the judge that you are ready for anything to happen and that you actually take the show seriously. It shows respect for the show and the judge.

When you are outside the arena, then you can relax a little bit. You still want to be ready for anything by still holding your reins and whip (yes, the whip, too) in your hand. If you don't like holding your whip, get a different whip, but it should never be in the holder when you are in the cart. That is your accelerator. Without it, your "car" is only in neutral, and you can't do anything about it if it decides to back up into some little kid in a stroller.

If your horse is put to the cart, there needs to be a warm body with driving experience in the cart. Don't lead your horse with the cart attached. Even if you have to get out to do to the bathroom, get somebody to sit in your cart holding the reins and whip.

Myrna


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Apr 7, 2011)

Another thing that looks tacky is having the header messing with your horse or running around visitng with the other headers/drivers in the lineup.

I was cut off once in my first driving class by a driver showing off and it really startled me! I was expecting everyone to just trot around in the circle and here came this horse from my right across my path and diagonal across the arena. So, watch out for the other guy, just like a car! When I commented on it to some other drivers after the class they said that driver "knew how to show off her hrose to the judge". It was a showy move, but if my horse had taken exception to it, all judge eyes would have been on ME and not on her showy move.


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> they said that driver "knew how to show off her hrose to the judge".


Yup, that just wouldn't be tolerated in the carriage ring in any class.



Safety is paramount even over performance. Nobody can have a good performance if someone has a wreck.

Myrna


----------



## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 7, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I thought of a couple more....show to the end. Even when the placings are in, keep your posture and be ready for your horse to move, especially when the other horses start to walk off to be pinned. Don't drop your hands on your knees and start chatting with the neighbors, and heaven forbid if you do that BEFORE the placings are in. This shows the judge that you are ready for anything to happen and that you actually take the show seriously. It shows respect for the show and the judge.
> 
> When you are outside the arena, then you can relax a little bit. You still want to be ready for anything by still holding your reins and whip (yes, the whip, too) in your hand. If you don't like holding your whip, get a different whip, but it should never be in the holder when you are in the cart. That is your accelerator. Without it, your "car" is only in neutral, and you can't do anything about it if it decides to back up into some little kid in a stroller.
> 
> ...



i'm sorry, but i must disagree with the "always have your whip in your hand, its your excelerator" part. my mare sees me holding the whip and she immediatly gets snorty and nervous. i've never beaten her or anything, she's just been like that since the day i got her. she is also very senseitive to verbal commands and i have no use for a whip.


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

Molly said:


> my mare sees me holding the whip and she immediatly gets snorty and nervous.


If she sees your whip, then you have an equipment problem. That is one reason for the blinders. When you are riding, you have your foot for cueing the horse. The horse can see your foot, but the cue can be more subtle and instant than wielding the whip. One purpose for the blinders is so that your horse cannot see you giving the cues or they will anticipate your intentions. Incorrectly made driving bridles that don't have an attachment from the cheek pieces to the noseband/caveson can create a gap that horses can see through even with blinders. Lots of cheaper mini bridles are made like that.

Now that being said, I have a mare that picks her head up to look over the blinders. She is quite small, 31", and getting a bridle to properly fit a really small head is a challenge. That isn't a big deal with that mare because she is generally lazy so even if she sees the whip coming, she isn't going to move any faster than she wants anyway. I have another bigger gelding who can feel you moving the whip and will react even before it touches him. The other day, my son was driving him, and he was standing in the ring while I was giving him some instruction. One of the cats came over and was playing with the lash on his whip, so he lifted his whip and Alax started walking off. Then Kyle stopped Alax, scolded him for moving and went back to playing with the cat which caused Alax to walk off again. It was quite a teachable moment for Kyle to learn to keep his hands steady. Alax is just that well trained. I will sometimes drive with my reins in my left hand so I can use the whip without him feeling it first.

By all means, use your voice commands to cue the horse FIRST, but to lay down your whip is to ride without legs. The whip is more than just a go button. Most people just assume that it is only for forward movement, and that is what most people only use it for. It is also for bending your horse properly, moving them sideways laterally, and a host of other cues that can be done. If the horse starts balking and flying backwards, no amount of clucking is going to keep them from backing in the ditch and flipping the cart, and snapping your reins on the horse's butt is smacking the horse in the mouth, so that isn't good either. Of course, to use the whip for those above techniques, you need something more than a "stick" whip, but one with a lash. I like at least a 12" lash (also known as a thong), if not longer.

If your horse is "whip shy", practice in the stall with the whip. Show her that it is not something to be afraid of. Rub her all over with it, belly, legs, head, everywhere, until she accepts it just like the harness. And you are right not to "beat" her with it. If I have to correct a horse with something other than my hand, I will try to use a strap of leather but not a whip. I don't want them to develop a fear of the whip. Again, it is an extension of your body, not an instrument of punishment. It can be used to "correct" a horse in harness, though. The other day, we had our pair put to and the mare was "eating" the gelding. My husband, while sitting on the box in the carriage, flicked her in the ear with the whip along with a stern, "NO!" and she hasn't done that since.

The whip is not only a safety and etiquette appointment, it is a requirement at an ADS show, and you will be DQ'ed without one. In Reinsmanship, you are actually judged on your use of the whip.

Myrna


----------



## Sandee (Apr 7, 2011)

I understand what you're saying, Myrna and here comes the but, the type of whip your have must be much different from the type that is the "normal" one found in most tack supplies. I know that ADS has something closer to a stick with a long lash. In the breed ring you will find longer (whatever the term is) pole with (about) a 12" lash. One reason is the rule that says the whip, lash included, cannot extend beyond the horse's shoulder. I wouldn't even know how to use one of the whips that ADS or the Carriage people carry.

Also, and this one will irk you, I was told by a well known trainer (who places a lot in driving) that "you have to carry the whip but you don't ever want to 'look' like you use it." (S)HE felt the judge would count down if it looked as though your horse wasn't trained enough to drive without using the whip. So I was told to carry my whip in a vertical position and never let the judge see it move (even if I did use it).

Maybe, now that AMHR & A have paired up with ADS there will be some rule changes.


----------



## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 7, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> If she sees your whip, then you have an equipment problem. That is one reason for the blinders. When you are riding, you have your foot for cueing the horse. The horse can see your foot, but the cue can be more subtle and instant than wielding the whip. One purpose for the blinders is so that your horse cannot see you giving the cues or they will anticipate your intentions. Incorrectly made driving bridles that don't have an attachment from the cheek pieces to the noseband/caveson can create a gap that horses can see through even with blinders. Lots of cheaper mini bridles are made like that.
> 
> Now that being said, I have a mare that picks her head up to look over the blinders. She is quite small, 31", and getting a bridle to properly fit a really small head is a challenge. That isn't a big deal with that mare because she is generally lazy so even if she sees the whip coming, she isn't going to move any faster than she wants anyway. I have another bigger gelding who can feel you moving the whip and will react even before it touches him. The other day, my son was driving him, and he was standing in the ring while I was giving him some instruction. One of the cats came over and was playing with the lash on his whip, so he lifted his whip and Alax started walking off. Then Kyle stopped Alax, scolded him for moving and went back to playing with the cat which caused Alax to walk off again. It was quite a teachable moment for Kyle to learn to keep his hands steady. Alax is just that well trained. I will sometimes drive with my reins in my left hand so I can use the whip without him feeling it first.
> 
> ...



she had an open bridal right now, but i am working with her on her fear of the whip.


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

Sandee said:


> The type of whip your have must be much different from the type that is the "normal" one found in most tack supplies.


I get my whips made from PHS Saddlery. They are carbon fiber and about $100. For drivers, the whip is SO important that I know people who have whips that are $300-1000 each. My practice whips are about $20 and I originally got them from Smucker's. Yes, you have to "search" for a good driving whip. They are not common.



Sandee said:


> One reason is the rule that says the whip, lash included, cannot extend beyond the horse's shoulder.


The ADS rules and the AMHR rules are so "close" in wording, but yet so far apart. The ADS rules state "An appropriate whip shall be carried in hand at all times when driving. The thong on the whip must be long enough to reach the shoulder of the farthest horse." The AMHR rules state that "Driving whips, if used, must be of suitable style, and the tip of the lash must not reach past the shoulder of the horse." So basically they are saying the same thing except one says "must reach the shoulder" and the other "must not reach past the shoulder". I think where the difference comes in is the interpretation and the expected use. See more about this below.



Sandee said:


> I was told by a well known trainer (who places a lot in driving) that "you have to carry the whip but you don't ever want to 'look' like you use it." (S)HE felt the judge would count down if it looked as though your horse wasn't trained enough to drive without using the whip. So I was told to carry my whip in a vertical position and never let the judge see it move (even if I did use it).


I read that a long time ago in the Pony Journal in an article about some guy and how Larry Parnell told him that, too. That thought has been around a while. Well, when you carry only a stick whip, there isn't much more you can do with it other than make your horse "go". So if you would have to "use" it, that would mean your horse is lazy. I would agree, you don't want to give the impression that your horse is lazy. I think I lost a Reinsmanship class one time because my husband said that I "talked too much" to my horse. The show was in fairly deep sand and Alax, along with every other horse at that show including a draft cross, was having a hard time in the sand. I was trying to encourage Alax to keep going during my Reinsmanship pattern, and was clucking quite a bit. Bingo, 2nd place.

Now, if you have a lash, you can do other things with it other than make your horse go forward, which is what I already addressed above. Granted, most breed shows don't care if your horse bends in the corners, but if you get a judge with a dressage and CDE background at and ADS pleasure show, you better be sure your horse bends in the corners! If he counterbends, you are sunk no matter how flashy he is! I don't always have to use the whip to get the bend, but sometimes Alax forgets and wants to check out the crowd along the fence instead.



Then I have to use the whip on his barrel to push it out and bring his head and haunches in. I don't use the whip a lot in the arena, but I use it more in the obstacles to get him to move over on a tight, quick turn. And yes, if a ADS competitor was using the whip a lot to get their horse to go forward, you bet the judges aren't going to place him well. They want a naturally forward horse, but an educated eye can tell if the horse is going forward on their own or by use of the whip (or even extra "clucking"...).

The challenge with holding the whip straight up is that it is HARD! You actually have to grip the whip to do that or it will fall out of your hand and into the basket of your cart. When we hold the whip at a 45 degree angle, we don't have to grip the whip, it balances in our hand. It is much easier, and better if you have arthritis or carpal tunnel. I'm hoping that someday your judges will understand driving and reward you for it instead of making it more difficult for you. And the trainers won't invent silly "rules" because they don't know, either.



Sandee said:


> Also, and this one will irk you,


I'm trying to control my "irky-ness"....



I'm hoping that my typing will help people understand the "root" behind the method and therefore increase their driving skills. If the driving skills increase, the demand for judges that know driving will increase as well. A good judge (and trainer) will understand how a whip is used.

Myrna


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Apr 7, 2011)

I am working with Dusty to enter him in the halter obstacle class at the AMHR show. I was having trouble with the back, with me standing in front of him. My dressage dil showed me how to use the whip to teach him to be straight (and also my posture). I am learning to see the whip as an extension of my arm, a cue. Dusty was traveling to the right in the cart. After the backing-up lesson, which was essentially a lesson in being straight, I used the whip to cue his right shoulder the next time we were in the cart. It worked like a charm! Dusty got his shoulders straight and he WENT straight! I was using the cue on his barrel, to no avail, before. So, a whip that will AT LEAST reach the shoulder is a necessity. If I have to lean my body forward to cue the shoulder because the whip is too short, that would not make a good presentation in the ring.

And speaking of whips: if a rider wouldn't go into an obstacle or jumping class without legs, why can't we carry our "legs" with us into the ring for those classes with our miniatures? The whip needs a PR makeover.


----------



## splash's mom (Apr 7, 2011)

Hi All,

Just wanted to say this is a great thread, very helpful for me. I wanted to ask while I had you all here, slightly off topic but would like to ask. What or where should I go to get my feet wet in the driving arena for the first time? My gelding is well trained and I do alot of trail and road driving without issue but he dosent have any exposure to competion. I'm not familiar with ADS is that a better place to start? Some of the shows I have watched quite frankly scare the beejeezus out of me what with the amount of horses and the way people are driving them. It dosent seem like there are any truly green or novice classes in my area. Should I just haul him and drive him around the show grounds? I would really like to show but safety is my main concern. Suggestions?


----------



## KellyAlaska (Apr 7, 2011)

I get my whips made from PHS Saddlery. They are carbon fiber and about $100. For drivers, the whip is SO important that I know people who have whips that are $300-1000 each. My practice whips are about $20 and I originally got them from Smucker's. Yes, you have to "search" for a good driving whip. They are not common.

Myrna,

Thank you for posting you whip info. That was going to be my next question. I looked at the PHS website and they have several options. They have the Mini Horse Whip 45" with 10" lash 01755 and they have the Light Mini Horse Whip 45" with 10" lash 01755L. They also have Pony sized whips as well 54" with 8" or 12" lash.I have never bought a driving whip before so I am not sure what length to purchase.

Thanks,

Kelly


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

splash said:


> What or where should I go to get my feet wet in the driving arena for the first time?


Where are you? That might have a bearing on where you start.


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 7, 2011)

KellyAlaska said:


> I have never bought a driving whip before so I am not sure what length to purchase.


Like has been said, you want to reach at least to the girth of the horse (shoulder) without having to lean forward. Reaching forward with your arm is a whole different thing, but you shouldn't have to lean forward. So you need to measure your distance with you in the cart. I think my PHS whips are actually 54". I had one custom made with a 24" lash. That is my favorite. I have a 8" lash for my son, but it doesn't have a lot of "flick". It works good for kids as there is less to get "stuck" somewhere on the harness or cart. I als had a 12" lash, but with an 8" and a 24", there wasn't much point to the 12" so I sold it. That would probably be the shortest lash I would get looking back on it.

My practice/training whips are Tufflex 48" shaft and 24" lash. That is a nice size, too.

Myrna


----------



## Sue_C. (Apr 8, 2011)

> i'm sorry, but i must disagree with the "always have your whip in your hand, its your excelerator" part. my mare sees me holding the whip and she immediatly gets snorty and nervous. i've never beaten her or anything, she's just been like that since the day i got her. she is also very senseitive to verbal commands and i have no use for a whip.


Now is the time to get her used to the whip, to learn not to fear it. Walk her around while holding the whip. Keep touching her with it until she accepts it, scratch her with it, and make her want to be touched with it...patience. I even lie it along their bodies, scratch the horses poll, and forelock area with it when training. Hum a little tune and just play with her...patience.

The problem most people make with a young/green horse, is to hit the horse with the whip...using it as an object to be feared. the horse should no more fear your whip, than your hands or legs.

I could no more drive without my whip, than I would want to ride without my legs. When properly driving a horse, your whip IS your "leg", it is a _directional_ TOOL...not a "beating stick".

You are doing a great job...it is _hard_ when you are alone and learning at the same time. Do you have a harness or back saddle yet??


----------



## Candi (Apr 8, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I thought of a couple more....show to the end. Even when the placings are in, keep your posture and be ready for your horse to move, especially when the other horses start to walk off to be pinned. Don't drop your hands on your knees and start chatting with the neighbors, and heaven forbid if you do that BEFORE the placings are in. This shows the judge that you are ready for anything to happen and that you actually take the show seriously. It shows respect for the show and the judge.
> 
> When you are outside the arena, then you can relax a little bit. You still want to be ready for anything by still holding your reins and whip (yes, the whip, too) in your hand. If you don't like holding your whip, get a different whip, but it should never be in the holder when you are in the cart. That is your accelerator. Without it, your "car" is only in neutral, and you can't do anything about it if it decides to back up into some little kid in a stroller.
> 
> ...


OK Mryna- I was going to comment from a judges perspective, but I'm GLAD I read your comments 1st



No need now



EXCELLENT right-up! 100% agree and you've added GREAT points for common sense and show etiquette!

Candi


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Apr 8, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I'm trying to control my "irky-ness"....
> 
> 
> 
> I'm hoping that my typing will help people understand the "root" behind the method and therefore increase their driving skills. If the driving skills increase, the demand for judges that know driving will increase as well. A good judge (and trainer) will understand how a whip is used.


And you did a fine job, Myrna!



Very tactful! I agree 100% with your posts here.





The only thing I would comment on is that there is a difference in training for breed ring "accelerator" versus carriage driving "accelerator." I train my horses as you do- there is a cue word and/or specific cluck to indicate each gait change and if the horse doesn't go, I back it up with a flick of the whip until I get a smooth, round upward transition. Breed show horses, at least the top ones, are trained to launch into the next gait when they hear that kiss or cluck. For most the ones I've met, if they're back-pedaling 90 mph a kiss or cluck is as likely as the whip to send them leaping forward. It has all the force of a whip for them because of the way they were trained. Now I still think the driver needs the whip in hand, don't get me wrong, but I wanted to be fair and point this out.



Marsha Cassada said:


> Dusty was traveling to the right in the cart. After the backing-up lesson, which was essentially a lesson in being straight, I used the whip to cue his right shoulder the next time we were in the cart. It worked like a charm! Dusty got his shoulders straight and he WENT straight! I was using the cue on his barrel, to no avail, before.


Congratulations on getting him to go straight! One thing you may find if you get a chance to drive a finished carriage horse is how differently they bend than our self-taught ones. I, for instance, still lay the "pole" part of my whip along the outside hip of my horse when I ask him to step over in the cart. Carriage drivers shake their heads and tell me I'm terrible for this. But ya know, I'm coming from a ridden trail course background where I'd be picking up my inside rein and using my outside leg at the girth to ask him to step over. They are coming from a dressage background where you're providing a boundary with your inside rein and asking the horse to step into it with give and release on the outside rein. _I taught my horse different signals._ When I go drive Breanna's (MiniHGal's) two upper level mares, I find all that advice on how to get them to bend works perfectly whereas it doesn't do jack for my horse. Hmm...is that because the advice doesn't work, or because my horse is exactly as clueless as I am?



I've learned so much from being able to drive upper-level horses every now and then. I thought Kody bent fairly nicely until I drove Fascination. Then I realized how much further I had to go and started asking Kody for a lot more. Interestingly enough, now he does it.





The point being, if your horse doesn't respond to a cue on his barrel, _teach_ him to. Spend a lot of time on the ground instilling the proper response and then take it into your driven work. It isn't easy, but it's important and very satisfying when you get it right! You should not have to touch his shoulder to get him to go straight. If you push the ribcage over, his head will swing the opposite direction and all the body parts should fall into line. Have I switched how I ask Kody to step over? No. It wasn't worth it for me. But for something involving every corner I'm ever going to drive, yes, it's worth it to me.



Marsha Cassada said:


> And speaking of whips: if a rider wouldn't go into an obstacle or jumping class without legs, why can't we carry our "legs" with us into the ring for those classes with our miniatures? The whip needs a PR makeover.


Because in the case of an obstacle class, half the point is that you've trained your horse to do it off body signals instead of physical touch.



Whips are legal in AMHR jumper classes by the way, but not hunter.

Great posts on driving courtesy, I've really enjoyed this thread. Perhaps we could start a new one with some of the questions brought up on this second page?

Leia


----------



## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 8, 2011)

Sue_C. said:


> You are doing a great job...it is _hard_ when you are alone and learning at the same time. Do you have a harness or back saddle yet??



harness is in the mail, but i have been useing ropes to get her used to where the harness will be.


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 8, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I, for instance, still lay the "pole" part of my whip along the outside hip of my horse when I ask him to step over in the cart. Carriage drivers shake their heads and tell me I'm terrible for this. But ya know, I'm coming from a ridden trail course background where I'd be picking up my inside rein and using my outside leg at the girth to ask him to step over. They are coming from a dressage background where you're providing a boundary with your inside rein and asking the horse to step into it with give and release on the outside rein. _I taught my horse different signals._


Are you using this cue for a lateral "bend", meaning more of a hard turn on the hind? That is the cue I use, say to make a really tight turn around a pole, etc. For "bending", I move the barrel out.

However, it became absolutely apparent for me this year, especially watching the WEG horses, that horses that bend well are quicker and smoother in the hazards than those that don't. And there were WEG horses that didn't. The difference between Chester Weber's and Boyd Exell's horses were night and day from some of the lower placing drivers whose horses looked like they were being hauled around sticks. Truly, dressage (as boring as I find it sometimes) is the basis for all other training.






Myrna


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Apr 8, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Are you using this cue for a lateral "bend", meaning more of a hard turn on the hind? That is the cue I use, say to make a really tight turn around a pole, etc. For "bending", I move the barrel out.


Neither.




I'm talking pivoting the cart on one wheel from a halt, basically sidepassing. Kody HATES this maneuver passionately as it was very difficult for him with his locking stifles and he requires that little reminder of the whip on his outside hip to move his whole body over instead of only giving with his head and neck. It's just a light touch, a little "bring your consciousness HERE. Remember to move your hip!" If we're diving around a tight pole at speed I use a repeated upward flick of the lash on the outside of his barrel as that is as much a forward movement as a sideways one and I'm only telling him to bring his body around faster. He's already bent to the inside correctly. I agree with you- the horse must be bending to be fluid through obstacles! I'm rabid about that as I can't stand yanking the horse around.

Leia


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 8, 2011)

Yeah, that is what I meant. I use the same cue.

Myrna


----------



## jegray21 (Apr 10, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Truly, dressage (as boring as I find it sometimes) is the basis for all other training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So true


----------



## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 10, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Truly, dressage (as boring as I find it sometimes) is the basis for all other training.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



totally agree! i taught my mare some dressage manouvers(side pass, piaffe, levade, etc) and it really helped her learn how to collect herself and relax.

plus, she loves showing off


----------



## RhineStone (Apr 11, 2011)

Molly said:


> totally agree! i taught my mare some dressage manouvers(side pass, piaffe, levade, etc) and it really helped her learn how to collect herself and relax.


Well, those would be upper level movements. Moreso what I meant was the _basis_ of dressage, not the commonly held beliefs about dressage being just fancy movements. The basics of bending and straightness, rhythm and relaxation, submission, etc.: the elements of the German Training Scale produce a foundation that give the horse the ability to produce upper level movements. They are more _principles_ than actual movements. Without these, you will not get true higher level movements. And those higher level ridden movements are not included in Driven Dressage anyway.

It is fine to experiment with those movements, but they won't provide the basis for quality driving.

Myrna


----------

