# More Carriage Harness pictures



## Dr. Pam (Jul 25, 2005)

This is the "1st edition" using my stockier 33" mare Jurgen's Cinnamon Swirl as a model:


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## LittleValleyFarm (Jul 25, 2005)

Looking goooood!! PLEASE tell me where you bought that harness? It's exactly what I've been looking for!


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## lilhorseladie (Jul 25, 2005)

Wow! that is just beautiful! I really like that. Now you are helping design this? I like what you have here!


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## Bluerocket (Jul 25, 2005)

What a lovely harness!!! and a gorgeous horse too!

JJay


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## nicole (Jul 25, 2005)

Please let us know where you got that harness it is what I am looking for???


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## ClickMini (Jul 25, 2005)

Dr. P, that harness is gorgeous! Since I am a newbie, I have a couple of questions about it. What type of tugs are those, and how does it work? I have one harness with French Tugs that I have not used yet, and I have another that has the wrap straps. When I take a lesson, the lesson horse's harness has wrap straps, also. How does this one work?

Also, regarding the cavesson. Since you are helping design this, you must have had some thoughts on cavesson, vs. a noseband that connects directly through the cheekpieces. Please share.





Thanks for the closeups, that is really a terrific-looking harness! Would love to hear what the price range might be, you could PM me if you don't want to share publicly.


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## willowoodstables (Jul 25, 2005)

OOOHHH...

Want a BRIDLE like that..so hard to find NICE mini ROUND blinkers!!!! I love the idea of a seperate caveson!!!

Kim


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## WhyMinis (Jul 25, 2005)

I really like this harness. Did you say it was from Carriage House? Do you have closeups of the "2nd Edition"?


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## ClickMini (Jul 25, 2005)

Kim, I am really trying to learn. What do you view as being desirable about a separate cavesson? As I understand it, the noseband arrangement where it feeds through the bridle cheekpiece holds the cheekpiece flush against the horse's face when the rein is taught, so there is no gaping where the horse can see behind his blinkers.

I have two harnesses, one is a fine show harness that has a separate cavesson, and one is a pleasure harness that has the noseband only. Would love to hear what people think of the different architecture.


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## willowoodstables (Jul 25, 2005)

ClickMini..

I like them seperate due to the fact I find too many ponies/minis "pinch" when the noseband is buckled thru the cheek pieces. A properly fit bridle (sidecheck) should never "gape". The overcheck bridle tends to do this more so, so I use a big fat FLAT black shoe string tied from one cheek over to the other (across the nose). Never should it be tight either. On my harness it actually sits right above the caveson. My "good" (Freedman) harness actually has that piece in a rolled leather





Kim


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## REO (Jul 25, 2005)

*GORGEOUS!*









That is so NICE! I love your horse too!


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## MiniHGal (Jul 25, 2005)

That is gorgeous, Dr. Pam!





It's getting to look very nice.


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## rabbitsfizz (Jul 25, 2005)

Our harnesses have neither separate nosebands nor checks of any kind- I've never seen one gape or pinch, and we are not talking me pootling around here, we are talking right up to the very TOP!! I think it is just what you get used to, quite frankly. Dr Pam, I did think the breast collar was "V"'d??


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## bfogg (Jul 25, 2005)

I have got to get some pictures of my team harness for you all to see sometime.

I had it custom made the way I like for a team I was putting together, and then sold the horses!!!!!!!

I love it and it is sitting here doing nothing, I had it made with seperate bridle and cavesons done in red patten leather, gold hearts on the blinders, patten leather teardrops with gold hearts on them, even had the hardware put in the top of each bridle for the plumes to screw into! With a set of red plumes and had another set of black plumes as well.

I need to get it on the darn sale board...........

Been out all darn day trying to buy a refrigerator that could get delivered before 2010!!!!

Jeez things used to be so easy!!!!

Love seeing photos of horses in harness!

Bonnie


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 25, 2005)

ClickMini said:


> Also, regarding the cavesson. Since you are helping design this, you must have had some thoughts on cavesson, vs. a noseband that connects directly through the cheekpieces. Please share.





ClickMini said:


> Kim, I am really trying to learn. What do you view as being desirable about a separate cavesson? As I understand it, the noseband arrangement where it feeds through the bridle cheekpiece holds the cheekpiece flush against the horse's face when the rein is taught, so there is no gaping where the horse can see behind his blinkers.





willowoodstables said:


> I like them seperate due to the fact I find too many ponies/minis "pinch" when the noseband is buckled thru the cheek pieces.  A properly fit bridle (sidecheck) should never "gape".  -Kim


This is interesting. I've picked up several great carriage driving books recently and I was fascinated to see that BOTH of them stated that the only purpose for a cavesson or nosepiece of any kind on a driven horse is to hold the cheekpieces close to the horse's head in case the horse takes hold of the bit in such a way as to make the bridle temporarily gape and allow him to see behind the blinkers. I come from big horses where the cavesson is to keep their little mouths shut (supposedly), and like Kim I never use it for that preferring to let the horse learn to keep their mouth shut on their own. Any driving horse of mine will also learn to drive in an open bridle so I'm not spectacularly worried about a stolen glimpse of the cart following.





I own the original version of this harness, Ozark Mountain's Carriage harness. On MINE, and it could just be my horse, the separate cavesson slides forward into my horse's eyes all the time and looked pretty bad. I finally figured out that a handy length of electrical tape attaching it to the cheekpiece eliminated the problem and now it's great. I also find that with all that leather run through keepers on the cheekpieces, it is stiff enough there is little chance of it gaping no matter what the horse does.

I like the addition of chain on the browband instead of brass spots, and I like the teardrop. I would still like to see the straps on that double-buckle noseband shortened (a real problem on mine), and I would raise and enlarge the new rein terrets on the neckstrap. You want to be able to run your buckle through there easily and never risk the rein getting twisted or stuck. MORE PADDING on the saddle! It really needs to easily clear the withers of any horse and not put pressure on that spine no matter what, and I don't see that yet. But this is a LOVELY harness and I think you're really on the right track!!






I would love to see two versions available in the end, one with a padded slim breastcollar like this one and one with a deep V for marathon. Maybe an option to purchase both in one harness set? That would be exciting!

Kudos,

Leia


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## Dr. Pam (Jul 25, 2005)

> I own the original version of this harness, Ozark Mountain's Carriage harness. On MINE, and it could just be my horse, the separate cavesson slides forward into my horse's eyes all the time and looked pretty bad


It's not you--it's the harness. I didn't like it either. I don't like nosebands that aren't fastened, and it was missing a keeper under the chin for it's tab.



> Dr Pam, I did think the breast collar was "V"'d??


That was one of the corrections on the first edition--the collar didn't have a deep enough V and it wasn't padded enough. There also wasn't enough padding on the saddle, and there was no gullet. I wanted a firm tree, not the "surcingle" 99% of mini harnesses have. The hip straps on the britching didn't hang right either.



> I like the addition of chain on the browband instead of brass spots, and I like the teardrop


I love the chain--and it's easy to remove for cleaning. I like the tear drops on the forehead and the false martingale, too--nice touch. BTW, these pictures show a sidecheck, which I left on for pictures, but I don't use them for CDE.



> Did you say it was from Carriage House?


Nope, it's from Ozark.

The "Carriage Harness" she has available now is nice, but this one is a whole different critter. We've talked about some options and changes in the original for those of us with champagne tastes and a beer budget


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## WhyMinis (Jul 25, 2005)

Dr. Pam said:


> > Did you say it was from Carriage House?
> 
> 
> Nope, it's from Ozark.
> ...



I realized my mistake after I reread the posts. I really like this harness but am realizing that not only do I have a beer budget but I am going to need to build an addition onto the house just to store harnesses and carts.

But doggone it I am having so much fun!!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 26, 2005)

> I love the chain--and it's easy to remove for cleaning.


Oh my God. It removes for cleaning?! I HAVE TO HAVE THIS HARNESS!!!











I actually like the more traditional look of the 1st edition breastcollar better than the deep v, I've seen both types in person and I really think a padded contour collar looks better for dressage on most of the minis with their small chests. It just makes for a sleeker visual line then this big wavy thing. But at least it looks like the new Ozark one correctly follows the line of the horse's shoulder. I'm not sure the one I have does...seems like the shoulder "swoops" don't come up quite high enough.



Have to drive with it more and get some pictures or video of him moving in it so I can see. It's pretty new at this point, I've only used it once and no one was taking pictures so I can't tell if he liked it or how it sat.

I LOVE this new harness though. Are there preview pictures up on Ozark yet, or a list of the options or prices or something?

Leia


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## rabbitsfizz (Jul 26, 2005)

I agree Leia but a lot of Minis have a problem with settling the collar into the right place- the option of a "V" would be marvellous especially if you could buy it separately. Do you, on that side of the Pond, not go for what I call "reciprocating" tugs?? Ie the tugs strap passes _through_ the saddle so the shafts can move- this almost negates a lot of the problems if the cart tips up slightly, as the cart can move up quite a way without actually affecting the horse, and s will not pull the horse with it as would happen with the fixed tugs. All my harnesses have always had this- I do not think you can get a European harness with fixed straps on the saddle, so there must be something in it. I would not, for example, want to do ADS or marathon with fixed straps.


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## MiniHGal (Jul 26, 2005)

rabbitsfizz, I would like to see a mini harness with sliding tugs, but haven't yet.

We used to have sliding tugs on the big horse harness....but obviously, with independent shafts, that is NOT a good idea(marathon carriage). So we had to get them bolted(bolt is removeable). But with the sliding backband, the shafts could slide to where there is one shaft up by the terrets and one very low(we did not have this happen, but saw the potential, as well as being told about it at a CDE).

But with the EE, it was helpful--turns didn't wrench the cart shafts as it would with fixed tugs.

However, I don't know that I would use them with the minis--I have not observed enough shaft movement that would make them neccesary, or even preferred. I leave my wrap straps a bit looser to check the balance in any case on my marathon roadster, which would allow the cart to shift as it needs to on marathon.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 26, 2005)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I agree Leia but a lot of Minis have a problem with settling the collar into the right place- the option of a "V" would be marvellous especially if you could buy it separately.  Do you, on that side of the Pond, not go for what I call "reciprocating" tugs?? Ie the tugs strap passes _through_ the saddle so the shafts can move-


The contoured collars I refer to (like the ones from Smucker's, etc.) have a cutout for the windpipe. That's what makes them "contoured," that, or the ones that actually have a bit of an up-and-down to them like a Deep V, just not as extreme. That seems to eliminate the problem of fit on the 15 plus minis or so that compete ADS around here.




Don't get me wrong, I like the deep V's! I have one now. Just saying a slightly less obvious curve can look better, at least to my eye. Maybe just more traditional.





I've heard of tug straps that pass through the saddle but I believe they were listed as the primary definitive feature of a gig saddle? To be used with gig shafts? I certainly haven't seen one yet for the minis, but then again my exposure has been pretty limited. Thanks Minihgal for a look at what might make them better or worse then fixed straps.

Dr. Pam, can you address the question ClickMini asked about the tugs? I was awaiting an answer on those too, once she brought it to my attention. I've seen that style before but don't know what it's called or how it works.

I'm also curious- was the 1st edition breastcollar pictured here done with patent? It looks so nice...my original is just flat leather with no padding at all, so even some padding would be an improvement and I LOVE the look of that collar.

Leia


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## MiniHGal (Jul 26, 2005)

Oh, yes, that is what they are supposed to be used for....gigs, thanks for reminding me, Leia! And since I haven't seen a real, well-scaled and balanced gig for a mini--least, not one with the true curved shafts and all...the gig saddle is not really a gig saddle, is it?


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## LisaB Ozark (Jul 27, 2005)

Thanks for all of the great input. Dr Pam just let me know that she had posted some pics on here.

We are in the process of trying lots of options and pricing. They will be available in our new catalog that comes out in October. Each harness will made per your specifications and sizing and will take 3-4 weeks. The harness with all of the patent is definetely a champagne taste and price - we are working out the other.

As far as our standard Carriage Harness - it now comes with a double buckle caveson but he will only make the sliding caveson because everyone uses the caveson different and there is no way to know where to sew the sides down. He suggests that you fit the caveson to your horse and then take it to a local leather maker and have a stitch put in - that way it will be perfect for your horse.

Keep the input coming - we are also going to add the option of buckle in traces on our carriage harness in the new catalog.

Thanks again - input really helps us !!!


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## Margo_C-T (Jul 27, 2005)

The harness as pictured is looking quite nice-very comparable to, say, Smuckers!

The browband looks a bit odd to me; looks as if the blinder support is pushing it outward?? I definitely like the chain on the browband-have had several with it; it is SO much handsomer than dots, IMO! I do like a breast collar with at least a bit of a windpipe V; however, it IS a challenge, I believe, to configure it just right for a mini. I have a Smuckers Pleasure harness that has a simple, unpadded but reasonably wide, breast collar with an excellent configuration of the V-fine for everyday/show ring driving. I recently got a padded, deep V breast collar from the Carriage House for my B mare, and I LOVE it! The smaller the mini, though, the harder I think it would be to build such a breast collar to truly and well fit the horse. I would agree with Leia's idea of larger, and perhaps, slightly higher-placed, terret rings on the neckstrap, also.

As for the noseband/separate cavesson-I did have a very knowledgeable, national level, longtime mini trainer tell me that she'd had better luck with a horse that wanted to fuss with the bit(as one of mine was doing, even in the basic Myler), by using a separate cavesson. Sure enough, it did make a difference with THAT horse! However, for the most part, I have seen little to no difference in effect between one or the other. I,too, start my horses in an open bridle and NO noseband-have never had one I thought "needed" a noseband; when one is in use, it is adjusted so that one-two fingers(depending on whose fingers they are!!



)can be slipped between the buckled noseband/cavesson and the horse's muzzle. I do think that the idea about a self noseband helping keep the cheekpieces of the bridle, and therefore, the blinders, from gapping away from the sides of the horse's head, might be most applicable to a (usually!)cheaper,lightweight, 'flabby' leather--OR, to a poorly fitted or unsuitable-to-that-horse bit--and is seldom much of an issue when everything fits well and comfortably--JMHO. I have to say-I have never had a problem with a separate cavesson having the cheekpieces/headstall slide forward?? A bit of 'shaping' helps, with the actual noseband being slightly wider where it centers on the front of the face. Perhaps a snugger fit, where it "slides" through the headstall?

My "everyday" harness-the first I ever bought, in '85, and still in quite regular use, is a Smuckers Lite, in russet(natural, undyed)leather--it has a self noseband, and a treeless harness saddle(I use a fleece harness pad), lightweight, straight breastcollar with only a single neckstrap--not what I want for serious, long distance or marathon-type driving, nowadays, but quite suitable for training/general daily use, because it is well-made and well-fitting. Being able to 'switch out' a deeper V'd and padded, buckle-in trace, breastcollar with a more basic V'd one sounds like a good idea, too. Also, I'd definitely be in favor of a wider, more well-padded harness saddle, with good wither clearance in the gullet. Like MiniHGal, I've NEVER seen a sliding tug holder on mini harness. Though it has its place, I don't see it as hugely important on most mini horse harness. Yes, it's most suitable with gigs/gig shafts-and there simple aren't many of those for minis. I, too, have read that they aren't suitable for some marathon vehicle setups? I believe they are only really suitable for a two wheeled vehicle, also-so wouldn't be desired with a 4 wheeler.

The tugs pictured are a basic open tug with a holddown strap, attached to the lower outside of the tug loop, which then buckles into an overgirth strap that is attached(usually, not permanently, and in a 'sliding' manner, as with wrap straps)to the girth itself. Tug stops(and, I believe, breeching) would definitely be needed with this type of tug loops; without breeching, you would really have NO 'brakes', except the tug stops--and they wouldn't really be much, though you might "get by" in the flat show ring(see more of post, below!)

Though it isn't pictured,I presume that this harness is to be offered with a breeching? I would surely suggest that being an option. Though most may want it as a show-only harness, it would be much more versatile in application if it could be ordered with a breeching-which can easily be removed for the breed show ring, but used for "real world", and/or ADS/ADS-type showing. Dr. Pam mentioned the placement of the breeching carrier straps as being crucial, and this is VERY true-another 'tricky' situation where proper proportion is VERY important!

One other thing-about Tilbury(French)tugs, which pull down snugly onto the shaft-like you might put the end of your belt back through the buckle and pull it tight, like a noose)-when I bought my first real 'show' harness(a Lutke), I was "instructed" to get Tilbury tugs, and I did; however, I never really LIKED the way they worked, but didn't know why. I recently learned that they are actually considered correct for a single pulling a FOUR wheeled vehicle--and when you think about it, it makes sense. If I were ordering show ring harness(for a single mini,to pull a cart)today, I would not order Tilbury or French tugs, but instead, either open tugs with holddown straps, or open tugs, with wrapstraps--AND breeching! If not using breeching, one could probably 'get by with' wrapstraps 'only',for a two wheeler, in the flat show ring, but tug stops would be a requisite, with breeching, if using the open tug loops and holddowns-and desirable with either configuration.(I don't believe it is really safe to use open tug loops with holddown straps without using breeching-one reason why people opt for Tilbury/French tugs, even though they really aren't proper for a single pulling a two wheeler. I think the conception may be that the Tilburys "look fancier" than wrap straps, and they are used , albeit improperly, for that reason.)

All in all, the harness looks like an excellent 'work in progress'--good job, Dr. Pam and Lisa of Ozark!!


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