# Is something about to happen?



## Danielle_E. (Sep 7, 2012)

Canada has just expelled Iranian diplomats from our country. I am starting to think that perhaps a pre-emptive strike by Israel on Iran is coming sooner than later. Thoughts?

http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/story/2012/09/07/pol-baird-canada-iran-embassy.html


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Sep 7, 2012)

I have no idea what to think. We just aren't given enough information to base an opinion on really. Still, its a major move and must indicate something is about to happen, I can't see them going this far just to say they don't like Iran's policies, they have already stated that in the past without closing embassies or sending Iranians home. The next days/weeks should see more details come to light.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 7, 2012)

If it doesn't happen today ( and they say that's not the reason) then it will happen during the future. Anyone not realizing that religion is the greatest threat to world peace that mankind has ever known is living in La-la land.


----------



## Jill (Sep 7, 2012)

Israel is the only friend the USA has in that part of the world. Iran has stepped up the threats to a ridiculously scary level. I hope our Nation will stand by our friend. Honestly, I don't know why we wait until the ability to do us harm (Iran) catches up with the desire, but that's just me... To me, it's no different than if you knew your neighbor planned to shoot your family. Would you wait until he had the gun loaded before you (the USA) did something?


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 7, 2012)

I tend to think about it as "hate" more than pointing a finger at "religion". I know too many Muslims that do not feel this way and do not agree with the stand of their fanatic clerics and their Goverment leader. I am a catholic and I sure as heck hope that people don't lump all Catholics with the disgusting pedophilia that has happened in our Church.

This entire issue runs much deeper than we in the West can probably totally understand. Don't forget we get our information from our media that can spin things.... I am very worried about cooler heads prevailing on all sides. I worry for the world my grandchildren are inheriting. It is "hate" that will destroy this world.


----------



## susanne (Sep 7, 2012)

While I believe in loyalty and the importance of allies, when someone (individual or country) does wrong, a true friend does not turn a blind eye, but instead discusses the problem and works with them to right the wrong. Friendship is right...blind, unquestioning loyalty is wrong.

Israel has not always acted in our best interests, nor in their own. Of course, our words and actions regarding Israel are not necessarily in their best interests, but rather our own.


----------



## Matt73 (Sep 7, 2012)

Religion is the #1 cause of war on the planet....


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 7, 2012)

Matt73 said:


> Religion is the #1 cause of war on the planet....


Well said Matt.

It's been the #1 reason and will continue to be until it destroys us all.



Danielle_E. said:


> I am a catholic and I sure as heck hope that people don't lump all Catholics with the disgusting pedophilia that has happened in our Church.
> 
> It is "hate" that will destroy this world.



"It is "hate" (_being led under the guise of religion_) that will destroy this world".

Of course people don't do that. No more than they would blame you for the thousands of innocents killed and tortured during the Catholic led Crusades and Spanish Inquisition. That doesn't change, despite peoples obvious lack of wanting to hear about it, that organised religion IS NOT the la,la wave your hands round in church, feel gooey "club" it's made out to be. It's very much about power, hate and corruption.


----------



## Lizzie (Sep 7, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> It is "hate" that will destroy this world.


But only if we let it. The US has closed the barn door only after the horse has escaped, too many times, in my opinion.

Lizzie


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 7, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Well said Matt.
> 
> It's been the #1 reason and will continue to be until it destroys us all.


Yes, we hear this all the time.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_ongoing_military_conflicts

I am going to look at the above of each and see which are based on religion versus hate, corruption and vying for power.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 7, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> It is "hate" that will destroy this world.


Yup, it's hate and that hate is sadly religious based




. It all boils down to " my imaginary friend is better than your imaginary friend"

If it were non-religious books calling to kill those not of your faith all heck would rain down on them ... Do it under the name of religion and it's suddenly justified.

I just thank goodness at the fastest growing segment in America today is those who are non religious, educated (the previous 2 stastically go hand in hand) peace loving, socially conscious people...I just fear it may be too late. We're destroying ourselves and our planet....because there are people convinced they're trotting off to a better place.


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 7, 2012)

Just want to say something positive about religion. I'm well educated and consider myself very religious. I have no hatred towards any group and would love to see all of us live in harmony.. I do go to church and I know many, many people who believe in God and practice their faith who feel as I do.

I agree there have been many wars fought in the name of religion going way back in time but please remember there are those of us who hold strong beliefs who work towards the good of all. Probably didn't say it correctly but that's my two cents.

Don't know what the article means as far as what is to come (going back to the original topic) but maybe they are just taking a stand and doing what they feel they need to do to make a strong statement to Iran.


----------



## Jill (Sep 7, 2012)

Blind, unquestioning loyalty? Not a chance. But I know that Israel is our friend, and she's our ONLY friend in that part of the world. Those who pay attention know of the constant threats and escalation upon her by Iran. I think the "loyalty" we've shown Israel the past several years is disgraceful.


----------



## Jill (Sep 7, 2012)

Also, I know we do not miss a chance to bash religion online. It's amazing how many discussions are twisted around to that objective. However, it seems to me atheists as a group have more than enough hate and intolerance to keep them from casting stones at those of faith. Sincerely, some of them sound so unhappy that they must really be a misery to themselves. We won't get rid of religion -- no more than we will erase hope and kindness -- thank you, God.


----------



## susanne (Sep 7, 2012)

The very discussion of religion and various and sundry gods reminds me why I consider myself an agnostic rather than an atheist. Atheism is in itself a religion, a belief system (the belief that god does not exist) and all such are invented by humankind. Spirituality is another thing entirely, the good that is attributed to religion more often comes from individuals deeply in touch with their spiritual side. My spiritual beliefs run to pantheism (nature is supreme), for which no wars have been fought.


----------



## Jill (Sep 7, 2012)

Susanne, I actually think the definitions of being agnostic and being pantheistic would keep a person from being both at the same time... but your post jogged my memory and now I'm downloading a couple Agnostic Front songs to my iPhone. I haven't had that on my stereo in 25 years. I've been working on enhancing my playlist


----------



## Matt73 (Sep 7, 2012)

I'm not religious. I do believe in something bigger than us. I believe that if there is a "God", that he/she/it would not care at all to be worshipped. It's very simple; treat others the way you'd like to be treated. Honour yourself and others. Try to make a positive difference in the world. That should guarantee you a place in "heaven", not sitting in a man-made building every Sunday and giving money to some man-made institution....


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 7, 2012)

susanne said:


> The very discussion of religion and various and sundry gods reminds me why I consider myself an agnostic rather than an atheist. Atheism is in itself a religion, a belief system (the belief that god does not exist) and all such are invented by humankind. Spirituality is another thing entirely, the good that is attributed to religion more often comes from individuals deeply in touch with their spiritual side. My spiritual beliefs run to pantheism (nature is supreme), for which no wars have been fought.


I think this is the first time I've ever disagreed with something you've said...lol... Atheism is NOT a religion. Atheism just means "without god" everyone is a atheist when it comes to 99% of humankinds gods. Christians don't believe in Thor or hanuman, Muslims don't believe in Apollo, I actually not an atheist myself...because IMO you can't be"without something" that doesn't exist...thats like being an Aunicorn or Afairey or Asanta lol. "atheists" today are just those who think the gods floating round today's world are as make believe as all the others. But I am with you with worshipping the earth....THAT'S the real source of our survival



andli,story said...no wars have been thought over it (except whale wars)


----------



## susanne (Sep 7, 2012)

As is so often the case, the definition and the practice of atheism are two entirely different things. The word atheism, as you noted, means "without god." In practice, Atheism is the rejection of god. As you also noted, how can you object to something that does not exist? Perhaps our definitions of religion differ, but Atheism (with a capital A) is most definitely a belief system that shares rampant contradiction with most religions.

In practice, I see agnosticism as living without god, a life where the existence or nonexistence of god bears no importance.

I completely agree with Matt with the importance of making a positive difference in the world, and letting your actions speak rather than using the cloak of organized religion to show who you are.

Jill, there is certainly a contradiction in agnostic pantheism, but the part of agnosticism that resonates with me is accepting doubt and being comfortable with not knowing all of life's answers.

Please note that I said my beliefs "run toward" pantheism. I did not say I am a Pantheist. My life and my beliefs do not fit into any "ism" or any capitalized school of thought.

It is human nature to seek easy answers. I reject that. I don't need answers to be happy with or unafraid of life and death. I would be so bored if the answers to life's great mysteries were spelled out clearly. Give me answers and I'll give you new questions. (And almost all of them will be asked at least partially in jest.)

.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 7, 2012)

Hahahahahaha you're so cute


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 7, 2012)

Yes Danielle, the players and pieces are in place. Just depends on your definition of "sooner than later." The question is will Israel go ahead without the U.S. or hold off until after the election? The better known news media will not speak much about it beforehand but there are other sources that will lay it out in great detail. Blame wars on religion, oil, or gold. It does not change at all what is inevitable.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 7, 2012)

susanne said:


> In practice, I see agnosticism as living without god, a life where the existence or nonexistence of god bears no importance.
> 
> .


100% agree with you


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 7, 2012)

Vickie, it truly scares me, this entire situation. We all know that Iran is not being governed, in my opinion, with very sane thinking. What they are capable of doing if they are hit may be more than we think at this point. I have been following Joel Rosenberg for some time and have read most of his books. Any of you familiar with him? We Canadians are usually the diplomatic type but seeing what is happening with the Iranian diplomats being expelled doesn't give me the confidence that things are ok. My personal view is the strike will happen before your upcoming election.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 7, 2012)

susanne said:


> As is so often the case, the definition and the practice of atheism are two entirely different things. The word atheism, as you noted, means "without god." In practice, Atheism is the rejection of god. As you also noted, how can you object to something that does not exist? Perhaps our definitions of religion differ, but Atheism (with a capital A) is most definitely a belief system that shares rampant contradiction with most religions.
> 
> In practice, I see agnosticism as living without god, a life where the existence or nonexistence of god bears no importance.
> 
> ...


Susanne, I have to applaud you for your honesty and transparency.




It is no secret that I proclaim loudly and proudly that I am a Christian to the point that I have "no wiggle room." But I have in my past been to a point that I was neither afraid of or happy with death. I felt that I was so unclean that I actually welcomed a release from this old world, no matter what would lie on the other side, if anything at all. I remember climbing up on the wall of our local lake's spillway at the dam slightly intoxicated prancing forward and backward daring death to take me down into the murky foaming waters. I just did not know or care what tomorrow held and was ready to tell it all to kiss my ruby red u know. I even wrecked my brand new Toyota Celica that I had not even made the first payment on. I was taking my dear friend home from the lake and missed a curve on her street and flipped my car 3 times. We walked away (literally) to her house unblemished ( except for her very bruised chest which was due to me grabbing her and slamming her down on the stick shift while we were upside down. I figured, heck, what good is it for me to hold onto the steering wheel while we are upside down, AND since she always had the window down flicking her cigarette ashes she could fall out her window so I thought it would be gallant of me to pin her to the floor lest she fall out the open window). It was actually nearly 20 years later I made up my mind that I knew there was something on the other side of death that I wanted. Before that moment I felt a spiritual connection to nature; however nature alone. Some of that energy was received during yoga classes and some of it was while I was meditating. I felt the presence of a higher power that loved me in a way that actually made me uncomfortable while at the same time made me feel that I could run but that I could not hide. It was all very personal and there is no way I can explain it without sounding hokey. Eventually, Jesus did reach out to me and I literally stopped running away from him and instead ran into his arms.

As far as Matt's point of view, I so hope there is something to that because it so describes my granddad. He was such a good person as far as doing good deeds for others. He was not religious at all and he did have some vices that I could set aside because I loved him so much. The preacher assured us that in his final moments he actually came to know Jesus. If I could vote on who will be waiting to greet me in heaven my granddad would get my first vote.

I am glad ozymandias cleared up what she believes as far as all gods being imaginary friends. I thought she was putting Dagon the fish god on an equal platform with my God. I get her now. lol.

I just hope all of us make it to have many more years here enjoying life on the planet. If all this comes to fruition with Israel, Iran, and the USA I can only say that considering that my work involves supporting the warfighter I will likely be exiting before some of you guys that are not in a such a strategically endangered local.


----------



## CharlesFamily (Sep 8, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Yup, it's hate and that hate is sadly religious based
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Ozy - how DARE you insinuate that I am "lesser than" because I happen to believe in God! That my family and those who believe in what I believe are the downfalls of this world. And if you think that "peace on earth" would reign if religion didn't exist, then you are the one who is delusional. Evil men will always find an excuse for the atrocities they commit. Religion just happens to justify it - as you say. But even if it didn't exist, they would find another reason.

You are so amazingly condescending anytime religion comes up. You do not feel and think with my brain - you have not experienced the same things I have, nor felt what I have felt nor know what I know. Yet you feel qualified to judge me based on something you can have absolutely NO knowledge of.

Once again, in the name of tolerance and peace and love for all, you show yourself to be one of the least tolerant out there.

Barbara


----------



## JennyB (Sep 8, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Yup, it's hate and that hate is sadly religious based
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Religion is NOT the root of evil...it is Lucifier which temps people to hurt, be angry and to kill...yes and the different religions have a lot to do with why the world is the way it is now..BUT it has all been orchestrated out by God already and unfortunately(or fortunate) ... God gave us free will and if that means we bury ourselves..so be it!...You have nothing to fear, but fear itself. Wars are fought in the name of of many things and issues and armageddon will be more horrible than you can even imagine. I, my family and friends maybe here for the first part(hope not), but we will be gone off to a MUCH better place and those who do NOT believe will stay and face the music..Obama is part of that music..this I believe 1000%.. You can't do anything about war...

Every Christian pacifist must deal with the Old Testament. Warfare was part of the life of the Old Testament people of God. At times, God himself commanded Israel to go to war. While Christians differ on the weight they give the Old Testament witness, they cannot ignore it. It provides the background for what Jews would have believed before they followed Jesus. 

Thus, a proper understanding of the Old Testament perspective on war helps us compare and contrast its teachings with the instructions given by the greatest Jew, Jesus of Nazareth, and his apostles.

I could go on......

I don't know about you all, but I am so overjoyed that "I AM" trotting or being whisked away to a better place!





God Bless,

Jenny


----------



## JennyB (Sep 8, 2012)

Jill said:


> Also, I know we do not miss a chance to bash religion online. It's amazing how many discussions are twisted around to that objective. However, it seems to me atheists as a group have more than enough hate and intolerance to keep them from casting stones at those of faith. Sincerely, some of them sound so unhappy that they must really be a misery to themselves. We won't get rid of religion -- no more than we will erase hope and kindness -- thank you, God.


AMEN Jill AMEN!

Thank you God!

Jenny


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

What the heck is going on??? Never mind the war that might start between Iran and Israel, which is what the subject I started was suppose to be about ...... This is so sad. Extremism is what causes this intolerance from both sides, neither side here on this forum is better than the other. Please.....stop this fighting. I truly thought we could have an interesting discussion, instead it has turned into this mess.


----------



## CharlesFamily (Sep 8, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> What the heck is going on??? Never mind the war that might start between Iran and Israel, which is what the subject I started was suppose to be about ...... This is so sad. Extremism is what causes this intolerance from both sides, neither side here on this forum is better than the other. Please.....stop this fighting. I truly thought we could have an interesting discussion, instead it has turned into this mess.


Danielle, I'm sorry for the part I played in the drama going on in the discussion thread you started. I read it, saw the direction it was going, and logged out. But then I couldn't get out of my head what had been said, and I had to come back here and say something. I've had my say, I'm under no illusion it will change any minds, but it made me feel better to stand up in some small way for all the "ignorant" people like myself!

Barbara


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 8, 2012)

I know this is drifting off the original topic but I don't feel I use my church as a cloak. I love the feeling of community. I love the ritual of singing hyms, of prayers within a community, of sermons (some good, some boring), of communion. I love teaching Sunday School to squirming children, I love prayer groups, Bible study, pot luck dinners, I love going out into the community with others and trying to make positive changes in peoples' lives. Yes, I donate to my church but I donate to other groups as well. I was raised in the church, left the church as I questioned my beliefs and came back to it. It's my path and I don't try to make it anyone else's path but I would ask that people respect my choice as I respect theirs.

Maybe this is the problem in the world. We need to have a consensus to work together and put aside our differences and celebrate the positive in life. There are so many factions all over the world, it's becoming almost impossible. I pray for Israel, I pray for Iran and all the people of the world and while I'm praying, I'll go out each day and try to make a small difference somewhere in someone's life.

Everyone travels a different path but at some point in our journey our paths do crosss and we need to absolutely embrace each other or we'll never find peace.


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 8, 2012)

Ozy and others, one last thing. Maybe it's not organized religion you are objecting to so much as those who follow a certain religion trying to say you should believe that as well? I don't like that either. While I respect your right to practice your religion, I don't necessarily have the same beliefs and don't want to hear things like I'm going to heck, etc. because I don't believe in what you do.

I wish there was a way we could stand back and just have everyone get along. Think how amazing that would be with no more wars, no more of our children dying in combat, no strife. I don't think it's religion's fault. I think it's a failure to be tolerant of differing views while on a quest for power.

Thanks for letting me say my peace.


----------



## ohmt (Sep 8, 2012)

I am agnostic and do not tell people because it always leads to someone telling me I'm going to go to heck and "God bless me" or that they will pray for me. While I appreciate that people are trying to be kind...in their own way, it actually hurts me that I am not accepted for MY beliefs. I am spiritual and I'm not yet sure if it's because I was brought up christian and just haven't shaken the underlying beliefs that I had drilled into me as a child, or if I really do believe in something higher. So for now, I am a confused agnostic



I like it that way-I read and research all faiths and religions and find it incredibly interesting. I think people NEED religion, for themselves. It gives people hope and relieves us human's extreme fear of death (to a point). I have nothing against those of faith. I find it honorable, just wish that those of faith would find my own beliefs honorable as well. I put a lot of thought and research into it and did not take my change of beliefs lightly. Most people don't. I think when you grow up being told it is only acceptable to believe in something and you are afraid of telling people you think differently, it gets frustrating. Not that I'm condoning anyone bashing anyone else for their beliefs, I just hope I can shed a little bit of light as to why those of us with a bit of a different belief system do get a bit frustrated.

HAPPY WEEKEND EVERYONE!


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 8, 2012)

I respect you OHMT. Went through the same thing myself and came back to the Church. I think we should just allow others to be. If asked, explain why we feel as we do but respect that others have differing viewpoints.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 8, 2012)

Mountain woman...I really admire you...you seem like a very kind person


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 8, 2012)

CharlesFamily said:


> Ozy - how DARE you insinuate that I am "lesser than" because I happen to believe in God.


Nothing of the kind was ever insinuated. If your referring to the link between education and religion just google. There's a good Gallup poll article complete with graphs showing the relationship between faith and education. It's well known and proveable that the higher your education...th less likely you are to believe in myths or superstitions. It's also been shown over and over that the more religious a nation...the more warlike and visa versa. These are just facts.

It's this...I'm off to a better place that's preventing those people from investing in this world here and now



or flying planes into buildings to get your quote of virgins !

One thing that constantly happens is people who have been raised in religion, and never taught otherwise, emailing me and saying..."wow,I never knew!" Not many pastors will tell you the garden of Eden story came straight from another religion...right down to their god making a man, forgetting the woman, making her from his rib, forbidden fruit etc. the flood story...the Jesus story, Moses etc all being copied from other known myths from other religions.

To understand why Iran wants to wipe Israel off he face of the planet you need to study their religion to see that the lands Israel inhabits are sacred to them and the Koran calls for the removal of any infidels occupying those lands.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 8, 2012)

ohmt said:


> I am agnostic and do not tell people because it always leads to someone telling me I'm going to go to heck and "God bless me" or that they will pray for me. While I appreciate that people are trying to be kind...in their own way, it actually hurts me that I am not accepted for MY beliefs. I am spiritual and I'm not yet sure if it's because I was brought up christian and just haven't shaken the underlying beliefs that I had drilled into me as a child, or if I really do believe in something higher. So for now, I am a confused agnostic
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This was very well said!


----------



## 2minis4us (Sep 8, 2012)

> I agree Danielle.. Canada knows something and that is why Canada and Iran have severed ties.. Something is brewing.. I am sure..


Scares the you know what out of me !!!!


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 8, 2012)

2minis4us said:


> Scares the you know what out of me !!!!


And rightfully so


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

It will be interesting to see what transpires here in Canada in the next few days on Parliament Hill. I work two blocks away and often when there are demonstrations I can hear them from my work desk. The now closed Iranian embassy is arouhe the corner as well from my work.

This is what appeared today in our local Ottawa paper

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/story_print.html?id=7212246&sponsor=


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 8, 2012)

Ok, back on track with subject http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/intelligence-committee-chair-describes-explosive-confrontation-between-netanyahu-and-american-ambassador/262056/


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 8, 2012)

a bit more http://www.theatlanticwire.com/global/2012/09/canada-has-had-it-iran/56623/


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 8, 2012)

and some Q and A http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2012/09/answers-to-all-your-questions-about-iran-israel-bibi-and-obama/261906/


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

I guess you and I Ozy are not interpreting things the same way when reading this research. In this research nowhere does it equate "education" with "intelligence". It does however say that the most religious countries are usually the most poor meaning a lack of formal education. There are some very "intellectual" and religious, for lack of a better word, maybe I should say "spiritual" people in this world that to me are extremely intelligent, such as Ghandi, the Dalai Lama, Mother Theresa, to name but a few. This is my personal opinion.

I would like to keep discussing the Iran/Iranian issue because no matter your beliefs in this world, this situation will indeed affect you and I should either side at this point follow through with what we have been hearing. An atomic bomb or this potential first strike from either side won't discriminate about a persons color, religion, education... It will however bring much misery to our world.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 8, 2012)

Danielle, education and intelligence are very different. For example the more educated a person is the less they will believe the earth is 7000 years old because they have been exposed to the overwhelming scientific evidence proving we're appox. 450 BILLION years old. Etc.etc.

Back to your topic...Iran is a strongly fundamental Islamic State led by IMO not very sane extremists. We have every reason to be fearful of what they will do.Lets face I...Aukmydinnersbad (AhmadInejad) doesn't believe the holocaust happened!


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

Education in its broadest, general sense is the means through which the aims and habits of a group of people sustain from one generation to the next.[1] Generally, it occurs through any experience that has a formative effect on the way one thinks, feels, or acts. In its narrow, technical sense, education is the formal process by which society deliberately transmits its accumulated knowledge, skills, customs and values from one generation to another, e.g. instruction in schools.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 8, 2012)

The studies are referring to education in the broader sense...post high school...university degrees and beyond


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

I went to University and took a degree in Kinesiology with a minor in child psychology. I still believe in a higher power, I believe in God, and I do not see the same conflict you seem to see between science and religion.


----------



## billiethekid40 (Sep 8, 2012)

Boy I wish the back porh could get through a thread without it being turned into a debate over religion. I might not post very often but I do enjoy hearing other peoples opinions on world events (BTW the purpose of this post). Some people just can't leave it alone.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

What do you think could happen if Israel strikes sooner than later? Do you think Iran would or will retaliate nuclear and what consequences do you think the West would be subject to by Iran. There are many theories out there and I am interested to hear what everyone thinks. I worry about China and Russia as well in this entire scenario, maybe more so than Iran directly attacking in retaliation against the West.


----------



## Margo_C-T (Sep 8, 2012)

I agree that this sounds like a VERY scary situation. Further, I wonder why I have not seen one word about this on American TV(though am not a bit surprised, as I have increasingly come to realize how the US media(esp. TV)controls what we see AND how it is 'presented'....

I hope you will keep us all updated on any further news on this subject as it is reported to you all in Canada!

Margo


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

Margo, it is being reported today on the CNN site but it could also be on the FOX site, I haven't checked. I have been perusing the newspapers fron Israel, the ones on line, as well as the one from Iran. I just have this horrible feeling that we are going to wake-up one morning, soon, to the news this has happened, a nuclear strike and that the world is now at war.

In the last 6 months I have read two books that have given me a better understanding, one being The Twelth Imam and the other I Shall Not Hate. I wasn't totally aware before what was fueling the unrest. The president of Iran doesn't care because of the belief he has that "chaos" must happen before the Twelth Imam comes back as their messiah.... Personally I think the man is as dangerous as Hitler was and as crazy. Do I think that the Jewish state is without some blame to the situation with the Gaza strip, heck no, but neither side sees they are doing anything wrong. This is about power and sovereignty of land and intolerance. It's the proverbial "well he did this so we did that and on and on we go. Everybody thinks it is their way only that is correct and justified.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

If you have the time please look and listen to this interview with the author of the book I Shall Not Hate.



This is the reason I cringe when I hear blanket statements about Muslims.

We aren't the only human beings that want freedom. As the doctor says it is the minority causing all this mess, not the majority of Palestinians or Jews. Fear and hate are the enemy.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 8, 2012)

Seriously, you don't expect to get anything from tv, do you? FOX included!

Danielle, you are absolutely correct in your concern over Russia and China. They have big plans. But for right now this will likely be another one of those regional wars. The wars in the Middle East will eventually grow in intensity until another major world war erupts. The onset of war won't necessarily be a gradual process related directly to those smaller conflicts. Most likely, one regional war of intervention after another will exacerbate the growing hatred towards the USA and NATO by the Muslim and Slavic nations until Russia and China finally feel confident and justified enough to initiate their long-planned nuclear attack on the West.

I hope all of your diplomats over there arrive safely back soon. It is best for them.

We will suffer from additional losses of our military in the Persian Gulf and that entire region. Back home we will be suffering even much higher gas prices when a clash erupts with Iran and Israel.

The big attack is further down the road, in my opinion. Both Presidents Bush and Obama have made the United States increasingly vulnerable to a first strike nuclear attack by proceeding with "unilateral disarmament". The Russians have never lived up to their part of the agreements, and we have not ever required any disarmament from China at all.


----------



## JennyB (Sep 8, 2012)

I know your scared about a possible war between Israel and Iran, I can't say I am not either, but the fact of the matter is there is going to be a war. We are coming down to the end days and I look at it this way, if you DON'T believe in God and it all doesn't come down like the Bible says, then you and I and everyone will be just worm-poop after we die.....BUT if God is real and what the Bible says will happen, I sure will be happy to be in a new and glorious world that is so much more beautiful than what we have now, no death, no pain, no sorry, just love and happiness and more than you or I could ever imagine...I WILL be sorry for where you have chosen to be. The choice is easy don't you think?

God Bless,

Jenny


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 8, 2012)

JennyB said:


> I know your scared about a possible war between Israel and Iran, I can't say I am not either, but the fact of the matter is there is going to be a war. We are coming down to the end days and I look at it this way, if you DON'T believe in God and it all doesn't come down like the Bible says, then you and I and everyone will be just worm-poop after we die.....BUT if God is real and what the Bible says will happen, I sure will be happy to be in a new and glorious world that is so much more beautiful than what we have now, no death, no pain, no sorry, just love and happiness and more than you or I could ever imagine...I WILL be sorry for where you have chosen to be. The choice is easy don't you think?
> 
> God Bless,
> 
> Jenny


Jenny, where do you think I have chosen to be? Please don't think I am going to jump all over you with your answer. I am curious because I perceive myself with an open mind, even though I may not be what people would consider a conservative Christian. As I said before I believe in God.


----------



## JennyB (Sep 8, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Jenny, where do you think I have chosen to be? Please don't think I am going to jump all over you with your answer. I am curious because I perceive myself with an open mind, even though I may not be what people would consider a conservative Christian. As I said before I believe in God.


Danielle I don't know where you have chosen to be. If you believe in God and that Christ died on the cross for your sins and you have accepted him as your Lord and Savior, then you have chosen correctly.

I pray you and others have!

Jenny


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 8, 2012)

I think it's all related to the (sham?) 2/3 majority delegate vote at the DNC to put God and Israel back on the Democratic platform. I read an article on this that made sense to me on what is happening. It speculated that Obama secretly (or maybe it's more of a party thing, given the surprisingly equal amounts of Nays heard) sides against Israel, but can't make this known until after he is reelected. From what I understand, Israel wants (and needs) to attack Iran prior to Iran getting nuclear capabilities, because the first thing Iran will do with nuclear warfare is to annihilate Israel.

Israel realizes that she may lose our support after the election if Obama is reelected, thus an attack on Iran may need to occur before the election, as the US is currently pretty much committed to being Israel's friend at this point (as we should be, IMHO).

IF any of this is even partially true, then something horrible is brewing. And what happened in Canada certainly supports this.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 8, 2012)

WendyJ said:


> I think it's all related to the (sham?) 2/3 majority delegate vote at the DNC to put God and Israel back on the Democratic platform. I read an article on this that made sense to me on what is happening. It speculated that Obama secretly (or maybe it's more of a party thing, given the surprisingly equal amounts of Nays heard) sides against Israel, but can't make this known until after he is reelected. From what I understand, Israel wants (and needs) to attack Iran prior to Iran getting nuclear capabilities, because the first thing Iran will do with nuclear warfare is to annihilate Israel.
> 
> Israel realizes that she may lose our support after the election if Obama is reelected, thus an attack on Iran may need to occur before the election, as the US is currently pretty much committed to being Israel's friend at this point (as we should be, IMHO).
> 
> IF any of this is even partially true, then something horrible is brewing. And what happened in Canada certainly supports this.


Interesting. It certainly has crossed my mind but I was waiting to see at what point in this discussion it would be mentioned if we truly are trying to keep this from "as usual" being an argument about religion. Actually, the NO's were louder in my opinion, all 3 times. That man did not know whether to poop or go deaf. lol. In fact, the NO's were so loud I would not be surprised if pearl divers off the coast of Japan heard the dissention.


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 9, 2012)

I heard Fox News talk about this situation on Friday but it was just a small segment before they returned to the economic news. Nothing last night but we had all that terrible weather pre-empting lots of stories. Life is precarious and precious and we need to stay informed. I'm not sure though we can do much about the situation apart from voicing our concerns to our politicians and voting in elections. Not to get back on the religion thing but I for one am going to pray for peace. P.S. - Ozy, thanks!!!


----------



## Jill (Sep 9, 2012)

I've been following the escalation for a long time. Israel is our friend. Iran is an enemy, and one we've sat back and watched as they grew their ability to do harm. The USA is the world leader and thankfully still the most powerful military on the planet. But, when we do not step up to the plate, someine else will... And it's unlikely that someone will hold the values of personal freedom and liberty dear. We're the true World power who does. I hope we're not poised for another lesson in why the world needs a policeman.

Those following this thread, the USA's role in world affairs was so beautifully and touchingly summed up in Condi Rice's address at the RNC last week. If you heard it, you know. If not, it's worth watching on YouTube


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 9, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Interesting. It certainly has crossed my mind but I was waiting to see at what point in this discussion it would be mentioned if we truly are trying to keep this from "as usual" being an argument about religion. Actually, the NO's were louder in my opinion, all 3 times. That man did not know whether to poop or go deaf. lol. In fact, the NO's were so loud I would not be surprised if pearl divers off the coast of Japan heard the dissention.


The above opinion is not a problem for me. I am what you would consider a Liberal ( I am in Canada) always have been and always will be, but you are right. To me the no vote was as loud as the yes vote which shows that people are polarized on the issue. I watched the news last night, after losing power here for 4 hours. Wicked windy weather here yesterday. I wish our Prime Minister would take a strong stand with Putin and the Chinese Goverment as well regarding Syria. I think when things do happen that it won't be just Iran we will have to worry about.

Do I believe that going in with a pre-emptive strike is the right thing to do? Not at this point and not if they don't have absolute and 100% hardcore proof. What the world doesn't need is everyone rushing into a war that nobody will win and that mankind will lose. This is not going to be anything like we have ever seen. JMO.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 9, 2012)

Religion was brought up because this will be a religious war. Im sorry people think its taboo to talk about it even if its the truth




Israel is occupying Islamic holy lands and irans leaders want them gone. It's not being fought over economic reasons or anything else. It's the "why" behind what's going on in the middle east.

Iran isn't cooperating with the rest of the world because this issue goes deeper than please play nicely....when you think like JennyB (sorry to pick on you Jen



) and the here and now is nothing but a doorstep to somewhere better then reasoning isn't going to work.

If this does get bigger then the western world will side with Israel. Russia and china will side with the middle east.

Better make sure you kiss your kids and grand kids a lot because the firepower behind Russia and China is going to blow your minds.






Thanks for starting this thread Danielle.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 9, 2012)

I see it as a war to regain territory not about religion. If it was about religion Iran would have killed the Jews living in Iran already. There is a fair number living in Iran and they don't agree with Israel. Please research.

Hopefully fear and hate won't push either side in doing something that will affect the entire world. The link I posted above explains alot as to the emotions fueling the problems. I have so much respect for this Dr. I am not sure that if I would have been in his shoes that I could be so forgiving. Jenny, I think it is these kinds of individuals who are ready as you say. In his religion his "savior" is not Jesus Christ BUT he does believe in God. I have met people from many different faiths who pay lip service and think just because they believe that is what saves them. You have to walk the walk also, not just the talk. Talk is cheap and doesn't amount to much. Hypocrites are all over the place. If you have hate in your heart for anyone, I am not talking anger but hate, and don't treat others as you wish to be treated, well it's all for naught.

Here is some interesting facts

Jews are protected in the Iranian constitution and seat is reserved for a Jew in the Majlis.[13] Iran hosts the largest Jewish population of any Muslim-majority country.[20] After Israel, it is home to the second-largest Jewish population in the Middle East.[12]


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 9, 2012)

http://www.jpost.com/IranianThreat/Home.aspx

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=284189

http://www.jpost.com/International/Article.aspx?id=283603


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 9, 2012)

Found this to be interesting and may explain China and Russia's stand on all of this.

"Why are Russia and China not being more cooperative on the issue?

If Iran’s anti-Semitic rants seem counterintuitive, so do Russia and China’s less than cooperative attitudes. Neither country has an interest in seeing Iran go nuclear, especially Russia, which shares the Caspian Sea with Iran. If this is the case, then why the obstructionist behavior? Indeed, Russia’s deputy foreign minister, Sergei Ryabkov, was quoted Thursday warning against an attack as being disastrous for the region and having far-reaching consequences beyond.

Russia and China’s contrarian position on Iran is similar to why they continue to bolster Syria’s Bashar Assad: fear of American dominance in the region.

The Chinese and the Russians – especially the Russians – fear that the collapse of Iran, Syria and Hezbollah would lead to complete American domination of the Mideast and its oil flow. America, in this view, already has close allies in the Persian Gulf, in Turkey, in Israel. The collapse of Iran and Syria could possibly send those states as well into the US camp, leaving Moscow and Beijing without any foothold in the strategically critical region.

Moscow is not enamored of Tehran, but this is the Middle East and, in this region’s the-enemy-of my-enemy-is-my-friend logic, Iran and Syria keep the US at bay."


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 9, 2012)

It is like Kenny Chesney's song "Everybody Want to Go to Heaven, But Nobody Want to Go NOW". That is human nature, unless you are suffering from illness and pain to the point that you want to die and are willing to stop fighting for the next breath.

I was with a life-long friend this week whose mother had just passed away. Somehow in the discussion while I was sitting around the table with the family the topic came up about people prepping for an impending disaster. We were joking about all these seeds my husband has bought so that we can grow food and survive. They know my husband has never spent 5 minutes doing anything in the garden other than pestering me. My friend said "Forget that, if we get hit by the Big One I am going to go be with my mom and your mom." I know in my heart that she was just down over the loss of her mom and that if we ever have a nuclear attack, a land attack, biological warfare, martial law, or a revolution here she will be just like the majority of us and go into survival mode.

Denial is the oldest form of self-preservation. I don't think we should deny that we could be on the edge of a world war. The destruction of our country here within is a bigger worry to me right now. I will keep it brief because I don't want a lot of rabbit trails to take away from Danielle's intended topic. I am talking about farmers going out of business, lazy kids being raised to think life is about "give me, give me" and being the bums of future generations, the food police telling us what we can and can't eat, the tsa mister nasties groping people's genitals, and a whole plethera of false flags planted right in America with the intent to take away our personal liberties. It is the denial of all this that will eventually implode us and we will end up being whatever the United Nations tells us we are.





Now, back to nuclear attacks. I am not going to lie awake at night worrying about them. On the other hand, if and when I get to retire we will not only be looking to re-locate to a place that offers what we want as far as climate, privacy, offering the ability to persue our hobbies, etc BUT WE WILL ALSO BE LOOKING FOR AN AREA THAT IS NOT A PRIMARY OR SECONDARY NUCLEAR WAR TARGET. You might be surprised if you look at the map and see what areas each state has.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 9, 2012)

Vickie, thanks for your post. All of us from democratic countries go around saying and boasting that we live in countries that are the most free. I say to that bullpuckeys. Yes we have many many more freedoms than some countries, but we have many restrictions, regulations, etc. I am talking about daily life things. For example, there was a farmer selling unpasturized milk directly to families who wanted it. This farmer was taken to court by our goverment because of regulations. He initially won his case but subsequently lost to an appeal by our Ontario goverment. He has now been granted a further appeal and I hope he wins. What is it to you or I if people want this. I could understand if he was selling this in a store and we weren't told it was not pasteurized. Go to an airport these days and take a flight, see how nice that experience is, from body scans to whatever else they may put you through. And you pay for this treatment, disgusting. Our daily freedoms are being eroded and yet our politicians and governments keep brainwashing us. Freedom my backside. Okay, enough of my rant, off to clean my kitchen.

As far as my opinion both countries are equally to blame. Iran with their crazy President and the fanatics and Israel for the mess of Gaza strip. The unfortunate part in all of this is this will affect everyone else if either side does something stupid and goes to war. Either way it is a no win situation and we will all lose in the end.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 10, 2012)

http://www.jpost.com/Defense/Article.aspx?id=284500


----------



## Margo_C-T (Sep 10, 2012)

Very interesting thread. Thank you, Danielle, for starting it, and the same to the thoughtful comments of most all others! Immense food for thought here...

I don't watch CNN or Fox, though I would be considered a conservative(probably not an 'ultra', however...). I am generally more likely to keep up w/ the local news, though I try to see at least the early evening edition of one of the 'big three' American major networks...but take their presentations with a large 'grain of salt'. Daily newspaper isn't feasible for me.

Margo


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 10, 2012)

I didnt realize the below. So Iran will have a new President. I wonder if this escalation for Nuclear is because he knows he can't run for a third term.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/iran-blog/2012/sep/07/ahmadinejad-iran-presidential-election


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 10, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> I didnt realize the below. So Iran will have a new President. I wonder if this escalation for Nuclear is because he knows he can't run for a third term.
> 
> http://www.guardian....ential-election


He's going to make sure whoever takes over is well groomed. Am I expecting fair and honest elections - no way! My heart goes out to the "normal" everyday Iranian people living under this government. Human rights are nonexistent.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 11, 2012)

This is an excellent article in our paper today and gives us food for thought for the reasoning that we closed their embassy.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/09/10/f-vp-stewart-iran-canada.html


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 11, 2012)

This coming out of Iran

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9533842/Mahmoud-Ahmadinejad-accuses-the-West-of-destroying-Irans-rain-clouds.html


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 11, 2012)

the United States is going to be forced into this no matter what happens. Iran has already declared that they would attack American bases if Israel attacks Iran.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 11, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> He's going to make sure whoever takes over is well groomed. Am I expecting fair and honest elections - no way! My heart goes out to the "normal" everyday Iranian people living under this government. Human rights are nonexistent.


My previous Director was from Iran. She left the country and came to Canada because of the revolution.. The stories she told me were hair raising. She said she would "never, ever" go back.

The Canadian Iranians that are complaining about the embassy closure and visas and passports to travel to Iran, I say if you want to go, sure, we will find a way for you to leave, but you will not be allowed to come back. It will be a one-way trip.


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 15, 2012)

I wish that the US would show some guts like Canada. But we're too busy trying to blame ourselves. MUSLIM RADICALS are NOT our friends, and they have no desire to be our friends. And yet Obama still seems to be convinced that, if we're nice enough, that they will like us. I just saw Netanyahu being interviewed, and he gets it. I think he is an amazing Prime Minister for Israel, and I am ashamed to have a POTUS who thinks it's more important to be on David Letterman than it is to meet with him.

Right now I am so sad and angry. Our country appointed Ambassador Stevens and the 3 other individuals who were killed, and yet we did nothing to protect them from what must have been a terrifying night, and a horrible death (one senator who knew him said Stevens was tortured, including sodomy) And I mean literally nothing to protect them, as the Embassy in Libya had a limited budget and couldn't afford a fortified facility, and Obama, himself, decreed that the Embassy guards were not allowed to have ammunition (they had guns, which were "for show" only....no bullets) So our poor guys were literally sitting ducks on September 11th, when trouble should have been anticipated, and protection provided. Obama might as well have simply handed them over with a smile on his face. But he was too busy campaigning to attend National Security meetings. Yes, I'm a conservative, but I would be just as angry with a President if he had been a Republican.


----------



## ohmt (Sep 16, 2012)

Obama is not being nice to the radicals, he is being a president that does not condemn those who are innocent due to the actions of extremists.

This is what was released from the US embassy in Cairo:

"The Embassy of the United States in Cairo condemns the continuing efforts by misguided individuals to hurt the religious feelings of Muslims – as we condemn efforts to offend believers of all religions. Today, the 11th anniversary of the September 11, 2001 terrorist attacks on the United States, Americans are honoring our patriots and those who serve our nation as the fitting response to the enemies of democracy. Respect for religious beliefs is a cornerstone of American democracy. We firmly reject the actions by those who abuse the universal right of free speech to hurt the religious beliefs of others" 

Obama:

_"_The situation in Cairo was one in which an embassy that is being threatened by major protests releases a press release saying that the film that had disturbed so many Muslims around the world wasn’t representative of what Americans believe about Islam, in an effort to cool the situation down. It didn’t come from me, it didn’t come from Secretary Clinton; it came from folks on the ground who are potentially in danger. And my tendency is to cut folks a little bit of slack when they're in that circumstance, rather than try to question their judgment from the comfort of a campaign office."

And for the "no ammo" claim, after Fox Nation claimed the Obama kept Embassy guards from having ammunition, they wrote:

Update:

Marine spokesman at Pentagon Lt Col Chris Hughes says these reports are NOT true. This is on the record:
​



“The Ambassador and RSO have been completely and appropriately engaged with the security situation. No restrictions on weapons or weapons status have been imposed. This information comes from the Det Commander at AMEMB Cairo."
​


----------



## Jill (Sep 16, 2012)

I think the current administration sure does:

*Israeli Foreign Ministry: U.S. ignored Arab radicalization*

_Foreign Ministry official on signs of 'radicalization' in Arab world: ‘We knew what was happening, but the Americans preferred to find excuses.’_

Link to article: http://www.haaretz.c...remium-1.465210


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 16, 2012)

It would be nice for our country to have an Administration that stood up for Americans, for its people, and its principles and it would also make the world far less dangerous for Americans and for decent people of all faiths.

Actions and non-actions of politicians have both obvious and hidden agendas..._same goes for people posting right here under multiple forum names. _


----------



## Jill (Sep 16, 2012)

Amen, Vickie!


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 16, 2012)

Jill said:


> Amen, Vickie!


Now that I got _that_ off my chest! Britain of course falls in the category of "our friend" and of course their defenses are already strategically involved. My heart is so heavy right now. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/iran/9545597/Armada-of-British-naval-power-massing-in-the-Gulf-as-Israel-prepares-an-Iran-strike.html


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 16, 2012)

Vickie, my heart is heavy now too. I'm so incredibly sad for our world. I think about all the women and children and men who just want peace in the Middle East so they can go quietly about their lives. I think about the U.S. lives lost and the turmoil and uncertain future and the reactions of the politicians that span the gamut from war to no action. It's very troubling times for sure with no end in sight at the moment. If we go back to the beginning of this thread with the title "Is Something About to Happen," we can now answer yes and that is very sad.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 16, 2012)

A few weeks ago I told my husband that something was going to happen on 9/11 of this year. I just felt it. We have to have anti-terroism training at work. I just had to take it again a couple of weeks ago and actually found myself paying attention in an abnormal way. We have tons of training that has nothing to do with anything concerning our particular fields. Anyhow, *this *did stick with me so I will pass it along just in case anyone ever finds themself in a situation where there is an active shooter. Bullet fire: Try to get behind object to obscure you, if possible barricade yourself in a room, but above all crouch down rather than lie down if bullets are being fired around you. You don't want to lie down because bullets would likely be going all the way to the floor and you would be more likely to take a fatal shot. Crouching it is more likely that any shot might be less life threatening. Grenades: Lie down. I know this may sound crazy. But you never know what situation you could be involved in.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 16, 2012)

If only they knew that all you needed in life was a weekend away at a football game GO DUCKS! (63 to 14... Sorry Tennessee Tech lol)

I don't know whos posting under multiple names im presuming the posts were deleted while i was away but what does it matter...maybe they want to say something and don't want retribution...it's sad but a few of the most pious posters here are the most vicious. It's sad that a member here feels they can't speak their mind.

As for the what's going on in the middle east.....I'm sticking with what I've said all along...combine hatred, fear, fanaticism and ignorance with delusion and you end with destruction.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 16, 2012)

Two wrongs don't make a right. Both sides, in my opinion, are continuing to fuel the flames.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 16, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right. Both sides, in my opinion, are continuing to fuel the flames.
> 
> http://www.facebook....5&type=1&ref=nf


HAHAHA LOVE that cartoon ! Too funny (but sadly so true)


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 16, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Two wrongs don't make a right. Both sides, in my opinion, are continuing to fuel the flames.
> 
> http://www.facebook....5&type=1&ref=nf


Danielle, I am not certain what you mean by both sides. Democrat/Republican, Israel/Iran, christian/atheist(other religions) or what, but in reality it is much bigger. Much bigger.

And it is none of the above.


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 17, 2012)

It is much bigger and that is why it is a no win situation because everyone thinks they are right. Human nature has a lot to learn yet because we all think our way is the right way.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 17, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> It is much bigger and that is why it is a no win situation because everyone thinks they are right. Human nature has a lot to learn yet because we all think our way is the right way.


Danielle, you're so correct in this statement. What's terrifying in its reality though is the fact that the vast majority of all sides involved doesn't want to "think". There IS only one right way...it's called "REALITY". When you can take an adult with an average IQ, access to education and vast pools of scientifically proven factual information and they still refuse to accept reality and live in a world of myth and superstition there's no hope for our future.

I'm not talking about small differences in what's real and what's myth. I'm talking about differences so vast it's like comparing the volume of the Pacific ocean to the amount of water held in a teaspoon. Lets take believing in a higher being out of the picture and break it down into it's simplest form. If you can convince that average adult based on NOTHING but the writings of one bronze age book written by a bunch of poorly educated middle eastern cattle drovers something so absurd as the world being 7000 years old - and they believe it - then how can we possibly advance any further as a peaceful civilized race. If you can convince someone of that...you can convince them of anything! Including my invisible friend is better than your invisible friend and my reward for killing you because you believe in a different invisible friend than I do is 72 (or whatever) vir.gins!

As Richard Dawkins, evolutionary biologist Oxford University once said. "It is absolutely safe to say that if you meet somebody who claims not to believe in evolution, that person is ignorant, stupid or insane".


----------



## Sonya (Sep 17, 2012)

Funny how none of the believers on this forum are trying to convince others of the existence of a higher being...because then you would be considered a bible thumping lunatic with no education.....however it's just fine and dandy to try to convince others of the belief of athiesm at every opportunity (even when it has absolutely nothing to do with the topic) all the while insulting others....it's getting quite annoying I must say. People who preach preach tolerance of their belief system surely have no tolerance for others. Very hypocritical.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 17, 2012)

Nothing to do with the topic? It has everything to do with the topic...what's going on in the Middle East is 100% religiously motivated. The 3 Abrahamic religions are the center of the conflict!

I'm not trying to convince anyone of the "belief of atheism". You want to believe the earth was flooded to the height that a commercial jetliner flies - higher than the clouds - but a little wooden boat filled with the entire worlds species of - well everything from sperm whales to bacteria - was in it...go ahead



But don't expect those of us that know that's been proven not to be true to keep quiet...under the threats of not being tolerant. If religion was a peaceful, lets all get along kind of idea there'd be a bit more tolerance from those of us seriously seeing an out of control conflict starting to erupt - the basis of which is nothing but imagination.


----------



## Jill (Sep 17, 2012)

I do think Sonya is right. Big time. Vickie, too! Topic after topic gets twisted for the same agenda -- bashing religion and those who are fortunate enough to have that as part of their lives.


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 17, 2012)

I've always thought religion and evolution could exist side by side. Something had to have started it all and to me that is Divine. Ozy, I love your image of a little wooden boat carrying all kinds of things out into the world. Made me smile in a good way.

The situation in the Middle East is so troubling and will have such a profound influence on everyone. I just wish different factions wouldn't be so entrenched in beliefs that we can't allow others to have theirs and respect their right to live and believe as they will. I don't understand why a Holy City that is holy to many different faiths can't be shared peacefully. Just keep thinking about Marvin Gaye's lyrics "War is not the answer and only love will conquer hate" but I'm an aging hippie.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 17, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> I've always thought religion and evolution could exist side by side. Something had to have started it all and to me that is Divine. Ozy, I love your image of a little wooden boat carrying all kinds of things out into the world. Made me smile in a good way.
> 
> The situation in the Middle East is so troubling and will have such a profound influence on everyone. I just wish different factions wouldn't be so entrenched in beliefs that we can't allow others to have theirs and respect their right to live and believe as they will. I don't understand why a Holy City that is holy to many different faiths can't be shared peacefully. Just keep thinking about Marvin Gaye's lyrics "War is not the answer and only love will conquer hate" but I'm an aging hippie.


MountainWoman, I absolutely adore you (from one aging hippy to another). YOU are the embodiment of what a true Christian should be. It's so sad what's happening and you're right about the Holy City comment. When you get one religion building a holy shrine on top of another religions holy shrine and then not allowing them there because it would be violating your religion to allow infidels access...I can picture a hilarious cartoon of a church being built upon a church, upon a church and on and on towards the heavens



. Gosh forbid they couldn't all get along worshiping peacefully side by side.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 17, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> Ozy, I love your image of a little wooden boat carrying all kinds of things out into the world. Made me smile in a good way.


I know in reality with that much freshwater changing the seas salinity that whales wouldn't have survived if for no other reason that their massive food intake needs wouldn't have been met...but lets just pretend they could.... wouldn't it be cute to see the little boat with...well 2 of each...x 79 species...so 158 whales cruising along behind


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 17, 2012)

I wish I could simply hate the Islam religion and blame everything on it. But I don't know/understand enough about it to make that sort of judgement. Because I can see how radical extremists can hijack a belief system and twist it to suit their needs. (And I don't think intelligence is involved, as there is an excellent example of intelligent people blindly following without question right here in the US)

I think if I were an atheist, religion would be such a convenient thing to blame all of the world's problems on. Evil exists, and a world without religion would be a very, very scary place.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 17, 2012)

WendyJ said:


> Evil exists, and a world without religion would be a very, very scary place.


Evil does exist. There will always be people doing good and visa versa. As for your other comment - why scary...look at the non faith nations like the Netherlands - they top the worlds lists of the most peaceful nations they have the highest levels of education, highest standards of living etc. If you think for one moment that only religious people have morals etc you just have to look at some other animal species...they live in a moral society



I'd say with most of the wars, hate, terrorism etc going on that it's a pretty scary place with religion





This vid is worth watching just for the two baby chimps about 4.30 mins in

http://www.ted.com/t...ave_morals.html


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 17, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> I know in reality with that much freshwater changing the seas salinity that whales wouldn't have survived if for no other reason that their massive food intake needs wouldn't have been met...but lets just pretend they could.... wouldn't it be cute to see the little boat with...well 2 of each...x 79 species...so 158 whales cruising along behind


That's what I was thinking too. Just a wonderful image with Noah sitting at the front steering his precious cargo to safety. Thank you for that!


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 17, 2012)

MountainWoman said:


> That's what I was thinking too. Just a wonderful image with Noah sitting at the front steering his precious cargo to safety. Thank you for that!








WendyJ......

http://epiphenom.fieldofscience.com/2009/06/atheist-nations-are-more-peaceful.html


----------



## tagalong (Sep 17, 2012)

> Topic after topic gets twisted for the same agenda -- bashing religion and those who are fortunate enough to have that as part of their lives.


I can't say that I have seen 'topic after topic" getting "twisted" that way... any discussion of religion can go a bit awry - from all directions. Good thing we have freedom of religion (of any kind/belief or lack thereof )... and all opinions/concerns can be shared and discussed as opposed to being summarily dismissed.


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Sep 17, 2012)

Ozy, fascinating video and equally fascinating discussion afterwards. Thanks for sharing and giving us all some food for thought.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 17, 2012)

Oh, sorry! I was looking for the room where they were discussing embassies, and diplomats, and the possibility of countries attacking each other, and the brutal murder of an ambassador.

Well, guess you can never get enough chimps, ducks, and whales. Oh do go on! I just love hearing how educated one is. Can we get some cute cartoons of how militant the radical muslim brotherhood is? How about one of uncle sam handing them his hat filled with billions of u.s. dollars? Oh my gosh, you don't think any of what is going on between countries has anything to do with money? (I asked myself.) Self, answer me! No, I will not! You're selfish! Am not! Are too! Am not! Are too!


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Sep 17, 2012)

'sigh'


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 17, 2012)

Actually, I came online to tell that LSU was under bomb threat today, as University of Texas was the other day but that is likely insignificant compared to discussions of the age of the earth. (wink wink)


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 17, 2012)

Reignmaker Miniatures said:


> Ozy, fascinating video and equally fascinating discussion afterwards. Thanks for sharing and giving us all some food for thought.


Hey, no problem



Those two young chimps were just adorable "dude, pay attention...pull the string" lol.

As for the "twisting of topics" comments, seriously "get over it"...religious comments are only given when religion is behind the topic - like the anti gay topics of a month or so ago etc. If religion is the motivation for the anti gay rights or the situation brewing in the Middle East then comments will be made.

If ML wants to make this a Christian only site - more power to her - it's her board. If religion is out of bounds - fair enough. But until that happens and we are allowed freedom of speech here then I and others on both sides will freely express those feelings.

I don't hide the fact that I think a world free of religious superstition and myths would be a far better place. It's far too divisive we're not "humans" we're Christians or Muslims or Jews or whatever. When mankind realizes that we're given one precious planet to care for during one fleeting lifetime rather than wanting to be sucked up to a better place then we'd be investing more into making everyone's life better worldwide. JMHO.

Peace dudes





Edited to add "who" do you think was behind the killing of our ambassador? Oups...sorry a religious group - sorry but gotta call a duck a duck  ( http://articles.cnn.com/2012-09-12/africa/world_africa_libya-attack-jihadists_1_qaeda-al-zawahiri-al-libi )

and how far will they go? http://belfercenter.ksg.harvard.edu/files/aq-religious-justification.pdf This is some seriously scary stuff!


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 17, 2012)

some seriously scary stuff!

Indeed. I can tell from your last two sentences that it is not about you 100% of the time. Thanks for getting back on the subject. Sorry that I did not take the time to respond to that Ape Protection Act Thread (and that nobody else did) that you started. I just was not interested. What is important to me is what is going on with a potential war. I hope we are further away from that than what it seems right now.

I think ML has the board under control. She likely realizes that it is her board and if she issues warnings and suspensions as needed.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 17, 2012)

And _WendyJ,_ I can tell from your post #78 that you actually are into current events.


----------



## Sonya (Sep 17, 2012)

I don't think any sane person condones any radical/terrorist acts in the name of religion...they happen in all religions, including lack of religion:

http://listverse.com/2010/06/05/10-people-who-give-atheism-a-bad-name/

As for atheist nations being more peaceful, read this:

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_atheism

Specifically the first paragraph under all the links addressing the notion that atheist nations are more peaceful...then if you would like to research further check out the link about totalitarian govt and atheism, which are strongly related.

As far as the original topic...yes we should all be concerned, the conflict is about land, wether it be holy land or oil land really makes no difference, or about nuclear issues with Isreal and Iran.


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 17, 2012)

I'm normally simply a reader on this board, but this such an important topic, and there are some amazing minds that participate on here.

Yes, I try to be involved in some current events, mainly for selfish reasons, ie, if I think they might actually be the type that can influence my life. And this has the potential to do so much more than that.

I think radical extremists use religion as a means to provide them with followers. I think the real motivator for these folks is hatred and anger. Or maybe I'm wrong when it comes to Islam, as I simply don't understand the religion. I also don't understand why it would appeal to so many people, especially women. And yet, Muslims are increasing in numbers like crazy around where I live....many of whom don't seem to be of middle-eastern origin, but instead are younger people who have adopted the religion. Which begs the question.....and I want to assume that these are good, peaceful individuals .....but is it possible some of these individuals can be incited by an extremely charismatic leader to become our very own homegrown suicide bombers? And why would the Obama administration allow someone like Tyrique (sp?) Ramadan, heir to the Muslim Brotherhood and extremely charasmatic speaker/leader back into the US, when he had previously been banned from the US as well as 7 other countries for terrorist ties as well as a history of inciting violence with his talks? So now, he's free to run around the US talking to our many, many Muslim groups and we have no idea if his agenda is good or evil.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 17, 2012)

Truly, there are many questions of _why_ concerning the attack on the embassy. One thing that does seem obvious is that the attack was a pre-planned military type attack. And that look on Hillary's face...can't seem to come up with a descriptive word that fits. And the chanting...about Osama Bin Laden. A lot of people think that the Seal Team Six event was on a look-alike and that he had been dead for years. So many questions are being raised.


----------



## Sonya (Sep 18, 2012)

There is much violence/hatred proclaimed in the name of Islamic faith:

http://www.pursuingholiness.com/category/religion-of-peace%E2%84%A2/the-tiny-percentage-of-radical-islamists/

I however do not see thousands of Christians (Protestants, Catholic, Jewish) lining up to be suicide bombers.

Violence should not be tollerated in any religious or non religious group.

Your concerns and comments Wendy are very accurate and well deserved. I do not believe the leader of our Country has it's citizens' best interests at heart...


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 18, 2012)

WendyJ said:


> I'm normally simply a reader on this board, but this such an important topic, and there are some amazing minds that participate on here.
> 
> Yes, I try to be involved in some current events, mainly for selfish reasons, ie, if I think they might actually be the type that can influence my life. And this has the potential to do so much more than that.
> 
> I think radical extremists use religion as a means to provide them with followers. I think the real motivator for these folks is hatred and anger. Or maybe I'm wrong when it comes to Islam, as I simply don't understand the religion. I also don't understand why it would appeal to so many people, especially women. And yet, Muslims are increasing in numbers like crazy around where I live....many of whom don't seem to be of middle-eastern origin, but instead are younger people who have adopted the religion. Which begs the question.....and I want to assume that these are good, peaceful individuals .....but is it possible some of these individuals can be incited by an extremely charismatic leader to become our very own homegrown suicide bombers? And why would the Obama administration allow someone like Tyrique (sp?) Ramadan, heir to the Muslim Brotherhood and extremely charasmatic speaker/leader back into the US, when he had previously been banned from the US as well as 7 other countries for terrorist ties as well as a history of inciting violence with his talks? So now, he's free to run around the US talking to our many, many Muslim groups and we have no idea if his agenda is good or evil.


Thank you for your post. I am back at work after 3 weeks of holidays and was too tired last night to post.

I was thinking that religion, to me anyway, basically is equal to ideology and so atheism is in fact a religion (ideology). Their are extremes in ideology in ALL religions and that is what causes division, animosity, and yes hatred which is what I perceive the film that was made is. Because I do not live in the middle east nor am Muslim I can not fathom or understand the fervor of those demonstrating or the horrible murder that took place. Also it seems some Muslims living in the Middle East do not understand our culture, our laws, ect. They have never lived this culture. Thei faith seems to be a totally encompassing way of life, they eat and breath their religion (ideology). They pray 5 times a day. I don't know if we will ever understand nor them understand us. Heck, we often have problems even getting along in some threads. I know this point of view will not be popular but I wonder if this film had never been distributed if we would be seeing this amount of hatred. We basically gave them an excuse to do so. If everyone respected each others believes the world would be a much better place to live. The Muslims must respect all other religions as we also have to respect their beliefs. Now the extremists are a totally different kettle of fish and should not be tolerated in our countries and should either be deported or should face the law for "hate crimes" when the shoe fits.


----------



## Sonya (Sep 18, 2012)

I don't think the film is actually released yet, just a trailer for the movie, which has been out since July. Has anyone seen it? I saw it on youtube and I really didn't get the big deal, unless I wasn't watching the right thing. It appeared to be an account from a marine who was stationed in the middle east...he basically went crazy (as what happens with many soldiers) and was rambling on about enjoying killing and disliking Muslims. They had his voice sounding almost like a demon to portray thay he was bonkers....and then it went to a clip of his Mom saying she had lost her son and in the middle of the night he would attack her, etc...

There are alot of distasteful nasty things on you tube, I didn't see this as any worse than other things I've seen...but again maybe I wasn't watching the right video.

I do not believe the video really sparked anything that was bound to happen in the first place...it is no secret that radical Muslims (7% which equate to 91 million) do not like the western world, our culture and views. Many believe al qauda was behind it.

Whatever the reasoning, I do not believe it's over and things are for sure brewing in a few places.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 18, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> I was thinking that religion, to me anyway, basically is equal to ideology and so atheism is in fact a religion (ideology).


Atheism is not a religion! A = without Theos = god. That's it - plain and simple. There's no books, there's no philosophy, there's no ideology. There's no set of rules, no worshipping (nothing) Buddhists are atheists. Not believing in the tooth fairy isn't a religion. Not believing in Sasquatch isn't a religion. Not believing in the Lock Ness Monster isn't a religion. Not believing in any of the myriad of gods that humans have invented over the years is not a religion





The 3 Abrahamic religions basically share the same Old Testament but that's where the similarity ends. The reason there has never been peace between them and IMO never will be is how the belief changes concerning their prophets/ sons of God etc. Ask any Christian - the entire basis for their religion is that you accept Jesus Christ as the one true God....if you don't...you're doomed! SO the only choice for peace is convert, convert, convert until everyone is under the same umbrella. Unfortunately Islam is as important to a Muslim as Christianity is to a Christian.

I agree with you Danielle, the Middle East is a cauldron ready to blow. If it wasn't this video that triggered it then it would be something else a day later.


----------



## Jill (Sep 18, 2012)

I cannot see ATHEISM as equating to a* religion *





Additionally, I do not think those who embrace the stark nothingness of atheisim could experience the same benefits and rewards that go with being a person who has found their God. ... even if we're only speaking of the here and now


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 18, 2012)

Here's something interesting for those of us with mental images of Noah's Ark

http://www.theblaze....rk-in-new-book/

But what I really wanted to say is that it is considered by many that the original reason for the embassy attack was regarding a demand that Omar Abdel-Rahmen, aka The Blind Sheikh, be released from prison. Abdel-Rahmen is serving a life sentence for his role in the World Trade Center terrorism. And there are now rumblings that the Obama Administration is in negotiations to give him back to Egypt.

I know it's ridiculous to think that Obama is secretly a Muslim with a radical agenda (and I, in know way, believe this), but he certainly adds fuel to the fire for people who do believe it. There is NOTHING good that can come from letting these countries bully us in this manner.

Since Egypt has now issued arrest warrants for Terry Jones as well as the creator of the you-tube video, it will be very interesting to see what happens, as Obama has already proven a complete disregard for our Nation's Constitution.


----------



## MountainWoman (Sep 18, 2012)

Wendy, thank you for the link to the book. Interesting read.


----------



## ozymandias (Sep 18, 2012)

WendyJ said:


> Here's something interesting for those of us with mental images of Noah's Ark
> 
> http://www.theblaze....rk-in-new-book/


Wendy,

here's a very good link - well worth the time to read.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Global_flood

Of course there is so much more scientific evidence showing there never was a global flood, including cultures that not only were thriving pre flood but were still thriving post flood with not one word of it in their histories. Most modern Theologians agree that it was just a rehash of an old Sumarian myth of a localized flood to that area, the Epic of Gilgamesh and that Genesis shouldn't be taken literally. http://www.historywiz.com/flood.htm

A number of years ago I was personally involved with the Equine Genome Study. mtDNA samples were collected from horse breeds from all over the world. I was helping with the collection of some of the rarer horse breeds from North America (originating in Spain) We sequenced the mitochondrial D-Loop of over 600 horses. I'm not going to get too heavy into the science of mtDNA sequencing other than to say there is overwhelming scientific evidence that there were 77 ancestral types well established before the Noah's ark story from locations all over the globe (including Przewalski's) which continued well into today's modern breeds - something totally impossible in the global flood theory.

Just interesting info if you're open minded enough to want to research stuff


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 18, 2012)

Sonya said:


> I don't think the film is actually released yet, just a trailer for the movie, which has been out since July. Has anyone seen it? I saw it on youtube and I really didn't get the big deal, unless I wasn't watching the right thing. It appeared to be an account from a marine who was stationed in the middle east...he basically went crazy (as what happens with many soldiers) and was rambling on about enjoying killing and disliking Muslims. They had his voice sounding almost like a demon to portray thay he was bonkers....and then it went to a clip of his Mom saying she had lost her son and in the middle of the night he would attack her, etc...
> 
> There are alot of distasteful nasty things on you tube, I didn't see this as any worse than other things I've seen...but again maybe I wasn't watching the right video.
> 
> ...


Sonya,

I saw the trailer. It was cheesy. There are so many outright untruths about it. Word got out that it was going to be a block buster movie. Supposed to have had a 5 million dollar budget. Like one talk show host said , "you could make it for $500 and shoot it in your basement in 1 day." It looked like those old timey westerns where everything was a prop. The actors and actresses were tricked in what it was and are in fear for their lives. They never even said the word Mohummad (sp?). Their script always said "Master George" but their voices were duped over. The whole thing reminded me of South Park with real people. It would be insulting to Muslims but that is no excuse for the violence. It is for sure a false flag and it is costing lives of innocent people. Not sure of all the who and why is involved because the scope of evil is likely beyond what everyday people can comprehend. I heard today that there was a lot of security around the film maker when he was arrested. There sure was not a lot of security around the ambassador. Valerie Jarrett is given more security when she vacations at Martha's Vineyard than the ambassador had.


----------



## Sonya (Sep 19, 2012)

I must not have watched the right video because it doesn't sound like what you described Vickie.


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 19, 2012)

Sonya said:


> I must not have watched the right video because it doesn't sound like what you described Vickie.


I was wondering. It is still on youtube. It does start out with a military man talking to a guy wearing glasses. Then it goes into the desert scenes. I found it once under Desert Warrior and the last time under Muhammad Movie Trailer. It was 13:51 long. Does that sound like what you saw?


----------



## vickie gee (Sep 19, 2012)

That is a minute + of it. When that plays to the end and the multiple screens come up the 14 minute trailer is the one on the bottom left of him with stains all over his garments.


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 19, 2012)

I read a theory yesterday and it all made perfect sense to me. Here it is: The emabassy attack was preplanned and had nothing to do with this ridiculously stupid, inept movie. The Libyan guards were involved, as well. It was SUPPOSED to be a kidnapping of the Ambassador, but they screwed up and let him die. They were going to hold him ransom for the release of The Blind Sheikh, who the President of Egypt has been strongly campaigning to get back.

The above explanation would provide for how/why the Ambassador's 3 American guards were shot and killed, but not the Ambassador. It also explains why (and I could be wrong on this, but the 4 deaths of the Americans were all I ever heard about) all of the Libyan guards survived the attack, as well as all of the "attackers".

Does ANYONE here think that this evil man, who was convicted to life in prison for his part of the World Trade Center terrorism, should be sent back to Egypt? To me, this isn't a bipartisan question, it is an AMERICAN question.


----------



## Sonya (Sep 20, 2012)

Thanks for posting the video ML...I will watch it when I get somewhere with good internet...my connection here is very slow.


----------



## Norah (Sep 20, 2012)

Matt73 said:


> I'm not religious. I do believe in something bigger than us. I believe that if there is a "God", that he/she/it would not care at all to be worshipped. It's very simple; treat others the way you'd like to be treated. Honour yourself and others. Try to make a positive difference in the world. That should guarantee you a place in "heaven", not sitting in a man-made building every Sunday and giving money to some man-made institution....




: )

I agree !


----------



## Danielle_E. (Sep 22, 2012)

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/story/2012/09/22/karygiannis-coptic-christian-death-threat.html


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 22, 2012)

How terrifying for that poor man.

There is no way to say this nicely, but our world is never going to be safe again without our best attempts to eliminate radical Muslims. They have no respect for life, even their own, and they have twisted their religion to direct them to hate and kill all nonMuslims. I abhor the "artwork", "Pis- Christ", but is there any way I would condone any sort of violence for the artist? No. (And yet, Obama and Hillary are spending fortunes of taxpayer money to apologize to the Muslim world....and I actually do think the peaceful Muslims deserve an apology, but where is their apology to Christians over "pis Christ"?) (and my computer keeps on changing my pis_ word to tick, which is why I wrote in like that)

What worries me is that Obama has allowed formerly banned radicals like Tyrique Ramadan (off the top of my head, so spelling may be wrong, but he is also known as the Heir to the Muslim Brotherhood in Egypt, which to me is clearly a radical Muslim group) back into the country. This man is banned from many countries (Is Canada one of them, DanielleE?), has been known to incite muslims to violence, and yet Obama has given him a free pass to come and induce our (very large) Muslim population in the US to take up the radical cause. It is VERY SCARY to think what could be happening. This is the type of stuff that keeps me awake at night, and, for the life of me, I can't understand why Obama would reverse the US ban on him, as we had already deemed him to be a huge threat.

Wendy


----------



## WendyJ (Sep 22, 2012)

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/09/22/obama-accused-hill-lawmakers-ducking-elected-duties-amid-criticism-doing/

Ok, for once I agree with Obama about his criticism of Congress. They have a job to do, this country is paying them extremely well to do it, and yet they are off campaigning instead.

But, could the part regarding Obama choosing his campaign over attending critical UN meetings in a time of huge international crisis true? It is Fox, but still, it sounds like it's factual.


----------

