# McCain - his vice-presidential choice



## Danielle_E. (Aug 29, 2008)

I am not surprised in the least....






"McCain apparently is making a concerted effort to reach out to Sen. Hillary Clinton's former supporters who may be unhappy with the choice of Sen. Barack Obama as the Democratic nominee. "

"She's exactly who this country needs to help me fight the same old Washington politics of me first and country second," the presumptive Republican nominee said at a Dayton, Ohio, rally of about 15,000 supporters, who welcomed the surprise pick of the relatively unknown politician with cheers and flags."

"Palin made her name in part by backing tough ethical standards for politicians. During the first legislative session after her election, her administration passed a state ethics law overhaul.

Nevertheless, she is under investigation for her firing of a state official, Public Safety Commissioner Walt Monegan. She has been instructed to hand over documents and recordings of telephone conversations as part of the probe, which grew out of allegations she sacked Monegan for refusing to fire her former brother-in-law from the state police.

Palin acknowledged that a member of her staff made a call to a trooper in which the staffer suggested he was speaking for the governor.

Palin has admitted that the call could be interpreted as pressure to fire state trooper Mike Wooten, who was locked in a child-custody battle with Palin's sister."

My first impression of this, as an outsider" "a smart and sly old fox".


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## crponies (Aug 29, 2008)

Wow, I didn't see anyone on here attacking the Democratic vice-presidential choice. I thought I would open this thread to find positive things being said. I'm not really surprised though. I am not certain what I think about the choice of a woman for that office. However, from the brief intro done on the noon news, it sounds like her beliefs are probably in line with mine. I'll have to do some more research. Also, "under investigation" means just that. It does not mean she is guilty of anything. In this country you are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. I am excited that she is a mother, hunter, pro-offshore oil-drilling, anti-abortion, etc. That all sounds great to me!


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## LowriseMinis (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm mostly amused that after spending close to a year harping on Obama's lack of experience, that McCain went with someone even less experienced with Obama.

I'm still researching, but her opinions do seem very in line with McCain's, or even a little further to the right than his.


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## crponies (Aug 29, 2008)

Here's a good video of Sarah Palin on YouTube:


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## SWA (Aug 29, 2008)

Danielle_E. said:


> I am not surprised in the least....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow, someone had those statements "Locked and Loaded", eh? That didn't take no time at all to fire 'em off like that.





crponies, good video. Thanks so much for sharing.


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## Jill (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm really happy with the choice


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## SWA (Aug 29, 2008)

Me too Jill!



Although admittedly, I was secretly holding out for hopes with Condoleezza Rice. I know she wasn't even considering herself, but still...I was hoping there would be a miracle somehow.



Still though, I am very excited about this choice too.


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## Jill (Aug 29, 2008)

Tanya, that would have been *wonderful*!!! She is an amazingly sharp person and I like her a lot!!!


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## OhHorsePee (Aug 29, 2008)

crponies said:


> Wow, I didn't see anyone on here attacking the Democratic vice-presidential choice. I thought I would open this thread to find positive things being said. I'm not really surprised though. I am not certain what I think about the choice of a woman for that office. However, from the brief intro done on the noon news, it sounds like her beliefs are probably in line with mine. I'll have to do some more research. Also, "under investigation" means just that. It does not mean she is guilty of anything. In this country you are supposed to be considered innocent until proven guilty. I am excited that she is a mother, hunter, pro-offshore oil-drilling, anti-abortion, etc. That all sounds great to me!


I agree 100% Jayne!

She is not an unknown to republicans that watch their party. She also has been pushing for fuel from Alaska and other resources to give some reprieve to all. Maybe if she said to check the air in your car tires or commit plagerism then she would be liked more? Look at her record and the woman as a whole and I believe that speaks volumes that she will be a fantastic vp.


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## Gini (Aug 29, 2008)

I am also delighted on McCains choice! My son who is a Alaska State Trooper is also on board with Sarah Palin. From those that live in Alaska and know her ethics etc that I have talked to today are elated. She has done much for Alaska starting from her time on many commissions and thru to the Governor's office. Please read up on this lady before you pass judgement. I believe the jury is still out on the firing of the commissioner and the reasons.


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## Danielle_E. (Aug 29, 2008)

I find it very interesting, and I am not taking sides here at all, that, and the above I posted is on "CNN" website, all of it and not something I went around putting together, that McCain would do this. That is why my comment was "I am not surprised..." Lets not hide our head in the sand here... he chose a "woman" to try and sway the people that wanted Hillary to be the presidential candidate, hoping that he can sway them to come over because Palin is a woman. As I said it's a smart move on his part but very transparent. Personally if I was an American and a Hillary Clinton supporter I would feel it demeaning as a woman that he would even think that I would jump so quickly parties just because he has a woman running as his vice-presidential candiate. I would hope either Obama or McCain would realize that they will have to win their votes by alot more in-depth reasons. I may be wrong but i doubt McCain will sway those that are thinking of voting democrat to swing over to the republicans just because he has named Palin and that women are so gullible as he may think. I am thrilled that those of you are republicans are happy with his choice but you would have voted for him no matter who he would have chosen if you are true McCain supporters. I am sure that the true democrats won't be swayed by his choice either. Going to be an interesting time for sure to see what happens.

We in Canada will more than likely be going to the polls as well in October but our election will be very dull compared to what is going on in the U.S. I am a liberal, usually and have never voted conservative and this time around I dislike both parties. Either side will have to work very hard to convince to vote for them but i will be looking at each candidate himself stands for, not for the theatric and badmouthing by both parties which is all part an parcel in any political arena.


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## CyndiM (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm very happy with McCain's choice. I would have been more excited had it been Condie but it wasn't.

The attacks sure didn't take long in coming did they?

Guess what she has MORE public office experience than Obama does, and on top of that, any of you mothers out there tell me being a mother isn't one of the hardest jobs in the world, and that, that wouldn't qualify a woman to be VP.


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## Pepipony (Aug 29, 2008)

Doesnt this make you mad that he chose her soley for the chance of getting Hillarys votes? As a woman, that would entirely tick me off. He attacks Obama for not having much experience, I know she has some more, but not much, isnt that hipocrytical of him? What happened to people holding office because they are the best choice and not because they can bring votes?

I have nothing to say about whether she can do the job or not, I dont know enough about her to form an opinion. I am just miffed about the reason for her being chosen.


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## FairytailGlennMinis (Aug 29, 2008)

She is more than just another woman...she is also very big on family values, the right to life and conservative values. She represents the more traditional republicans for the mostpart in her voting record--except that she IS a woman andis balanced enough to have voted FOR gay rights. So--she pulls in many of the traditional christians, she pulls in women with her ability to have a strong career and be a mom, she also pulls in the more modern conservatives in regards to gay rights. She is strong, balanced, capable and much much more than just another pretty face. I think she is a huge risk...but one that might pay off!


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## Leeana (Aug 29, 2008)

Im really happy with McCain's choice too


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## Matt73 (Aug 29, 2008)

I think he just caused himself to lose...



Are we still friends Jill? LOL. Just kidding.


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## AceyHorse (Aug 29, 2008)

I watched that video, read a bit about off-shore drilling for oil, her anti-abortion views, I can't believe anyone could think off-shore driling is a good idea?? . It made me really really sad. Like to the point of tears. It made me lose a little bit of hope for this world. I'm not trying to start an argument here, just voicing my opinion.


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## Miniv (Aug 29, 2008)

I don't normally voice politics on an open forum..........but let's just say that the VP choices have suddenly made this a very interesting election.


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## bingo (Aug 29, 2008)

I think it was a transparent move on his part as well but whatever will be will be.


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## wildoak (Aug 29, 2008)

I knew next to nothing about her before today, some of what I am hearing I like and some I don't but that's pretty normal for any politician.





McCain is obviously catering to the female vote, but I think he's smart enough to know he isn't going to take all of Hillary's supporters who are ideologically miles apart from Pulin. It's a questionable choice to me because I'm not sure of her electability. She may be brilliant, and highly capable, but she is also largely unknown at this point and McCain may have been wiser - and more electable - with a higher profile VP. I hope he can pull it off - time will tell.

Jan


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## Danielle_E. (Aug 29, 2008)

I just heard something on CNN and am taking it with a grain of salt at the moment as it could be not accurate at all but the political analyst stated that Palin stance on things are very restrictive in the sense that her belief and stand on abortion is pro-life with "no exception whether it be incest or rape"? Does anyone know this to be true???? I can't imagine lets say a 13 or 14 year old child who is a victim of rape or incest who ends up pregnant to have to have her "rights" dictated by government. I was absolutely shocked when I heard that comment. It's one thing to be anti-abortion, I can respect both sides point of view but with the example given above all I can think of is "draconian" and a major step backwards for womens rights in the case of rape or incest. That makes me very sad.


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## Cathy_H (Aug 29, 2008)

Hillary will NOW work even harder to get Obama in the White House as she WANTS to be the first woman in power...........Mccain is smarter than I was giving him credit for.................... NOBAMA


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## SweetOpal (Aug 30, 2008)

First I will admit, I am hardcore Conservative Republican, as is my hubby, I will not bash the Democrats simply due to the fact they believe different than I, I will say that I am humored to think that he only picked this WOMAN to sway the votes that would have come for Hillary, when both parties and women in quesiton couldn't be more opposite! Or have more opposite views....I share alot more of her views than I do McCains so I am thankful she is on board.


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## crponies (Aug 30, 2008)

Danielle, if that is indeed her stand, I agree with her whole-heartedly. Would that be a good situation? Of course not! However, that baby had no control over his or her beginnings. That baby should not be murdered just because he or she began life because of an act of violence. If the mother does not want to keep the baby, fine, she can put it up for adoption. That baby has a "right" to live!


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## Jill (Aug 30, 2008)

I also do not think he only picked her for the sake of picking a woman. I'm not sure how anyone who knows anything about Palin would think her major selling point is being female. But I do think it's a good strategic move.

CNN. I couldn't be bothered... they lean very <---- (LEFT). I'll stick to Fox News.

I love that this was setting out to be a negative McCain/Palin thread but that so many chimed in with their thumbs up on the ticket.

(Matt, I'd still watch American Dad / Family Guy with you any Sunday!)


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## barnbum (Aug 30, 2008)

> I share alot more of her views than I do McCains so I am thankful she is on board.


I have to find a few of her issue stands before I'm 100% behind her, but right now I'd rather McCain was running for VP, and Palin for President.



He's a bit too liberal for my liking... more conservative would make me happy.


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## Keri (Aug 30, 2008)

I think the two of them in office would be just what this country needs.


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## anita (Aug 30, 2008)

Sarah Palin is a great lady, she turned Alaska around, got rid of the corruption there. I hope she gets the opportunity in Washington too

Can't wait for the debat its gone be fun


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## Jill (Aug 30, 2008)

I think the debates will be awesome and will possibly change some minds. There's no comparison and McCain is so sharp and decisive. LOVED the "Saddleback Showdown". Obama did better than I thought he would but don't know how anyone could have watched his part and McCain's and not been "wowed" by McCain. It was awesome! I watched it on Fox but think it's also on YouTube here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kHfswHtxspc


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## Cathy_H (Aug 31, 2008)

I



> but right now I'd rather McCain was running for VP


.. McCain is up there in years so Palin may very well be in the President's seat some day.


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## OhHorsePee (Aug 31, 2008)

Karla, have you read up on Palin yet? If so what did you think?

I am still on pins and needles with excitement over the McCain/Palin combination. She is so out of the box and all I can see if positive possibilities. Whoop whoop!

Fran


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## Tapestry Minis (Sep 1, 2008)

The more I read about her the more I get excited to vote!!!


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## txminipinto (Sep 1, 2008)

I'm not much on politics but I think this is awesome! First off, what a historical election this is going to be regardless of who wins! But....for McCain to pick Palin.....WOW! This is the material that hollywood movies are made of. I think she's perfect and exactly what McCain needs! My husband who's never voted, EVER



, is voting this year.

And to not vote for one candidate or another based on one issue is very short sighted. I am Pro-Choice (and I'm not going to engage in a debate over it) and I realize that Palin is Pro-Life, but she brings so much more than just her opinion on abortion. This country is not going to outlaw a woman's right to choose. It would violate the very meaning of being an American. It's just propaganda to sway voters one way or another.


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## ozymandias (Sep 1, 2008)

I LOVE her. I was so disheartened before her announcement that I was seriously thinking of writing in the "Dalai Lama" as my choice lol. I'm so excited now to vote. She's a real person and the fact that her 17 year old daughter is pregnant makes her and her family even more "real".


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## Pepipony (Sep 1, 2008)

Her daughter, at 17, is pregnant, and you think this is a good thing for a VP? If she were Obamas choice, you would feel absolutely, completely, 100% differently. Why do people hold one group to one standard and another group at another standard?


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## SweetOpal (Sep 1, 2008)

OH! Can't believe I am going to udder these words! Carin, I couldn't agree more! You hit the jackpot with those comments. You have to see the big picture not one segment of the series!


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 1, 2008)

Well, to me I see Sarah Palin as a breath of fresh air. I am sure as most mothers do she gave her daughter morals but it was up to her daughter to use what her momma gave her. WIth her being 17 she is old enough to know how she got that way and ways of not getting that way. There are a lot of teen age pregnancies but that doesn't mean their momma was a bad momma. That means the child made a mistake in judgement. She is pregnant and they are being responsible about the pregnancy. I am a pro choice person but I have to admire that they stand next to their morals and have not terminated the pregnancy.

I am sure there would be a bunch more come out about Obama if the news media didn't treat him as if he was in a beauty padgeant. I am sure he will have skeletons crawling from his closet too. There was an allegation of him having an affair with a man and doing drugs ( WHICH I WILL ADD THE PERSON ACCUSING HIM FAILED A POLYGRAPH!). I didn't see one person on here (which it was kept pretty quiet) run him into the ground about that.


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## ozymandias (Sep 1, 2008)

An unwed pregnant 17 year old is NOT a good thing. It's a terrible thing. But, the biggest issue I have with most politicians is that they all live in ivory towers, clueless to the "real world". Not SP, she lives like the rest of us where...no matter how hard you try, sometimes s**t happens


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## txminipinto (Sep 1, 2008)

SweetOpal said:


> OH! Can't believe I am going to udder these words! Carin, I couldn't agree more! You hit the jackpot with those comments. You have to see the big picture not one segment of the series!



G A S P! Clutching my chest...



Jennifer is admitting to agreeing with me



! Who would have thought US politics would have brought us together.



All kidding aside, the fact that Palin's daughter is pregnant isn't my problem. It's theirs and they are dealing with it in mature, loving way that will be supportive for all involved. My parents taught me about the dangers of sex and the use of birth control. Did that keep my pants on as a hormonal teenager in love? Nope. Did I get pregnant? Nope, but I took the risk and it was MY risk and MY responsibility. My parents are still wonderful parents.

The issues the Palins, McCains, Obamas, and Bindens have at home do not reflect their political views or agendas. Those are the problems that every family in America faces. I vote for the persons who will best represent this country and who will look out for the best interest of all Americans. We all have crap piling up in our own backyards; it's life.


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## bingo (Sep 1, 2008)

OhHorsePee said:


> . There are a lot of teen age pregnancies but that doesn't mean their momma was a bad momma. That means the child made a mistake in judgement. She is pregnant and they are being responsible about the pregnancy. I am a pro choice person but I have to admire that they stand next to their morals and have not terminated the pregnancy.



However what if the scenario was different? No one knows if it was the daughters choice to continue the pregnancy or not. What if just what if it was not? Would you then think of this same woman as wonderful and admirable?

I was in between to be honest not sure where to vote but I am not sure I can ever support in any way someone who does not believe in a womans right to choose. And for the record Carin never say never I will never want to admit being part of something that could lead to the downward spiral of women's rights in this country period! So thanks McCain for making my mind up for me!


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## Whitestar (Sep 1, 2008)

Would you rather have someone more like us everyday people with everyday problems running the country, or more like them...politicians that have no idea what it is like in the real world. She started off as city council, went on to mayor & governor. Her son is going to Iraq, my son just returned from Iraq, I like that because it personalizes this war to her like it has never done these other Presidents or VP's. But, as this world is becoming more & more muslim & we know how they view women, I wonder what it will be like for a woman in power whether it be her or Hillary. I guess Condalisa Rice has done ok with it, so I can only hope.


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## ozymandias (Sep 1, 2008)

Whitestar said:


> But, as this world is becoming more & more muslim & we know how they view women, I wonder what it will be like for a woman in power whether it be her or Hillary. I guess Condalisa Rice has done ok with it, so I can only hope.


I honestly don't care how they feel BUT I do know they're not stupid. Muslim women will see how we in the Western world treat women and value women - If you were a dog in a cage and saw other dogs that were loose and playing on the beach, wouldn't you want to join them







and Muslim men...well hahah suck it up guys, she may become the VP of AMERICA





It's hard to find someone who you agree 100% with and I'm 100% in support of pro-choice, but I feel this candidate has more going for her than any of the others and if I continue to feel that way the more I learn about her then she'll get my vote. John wasn't going to get it before she came along.


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## Miniv (Sep 1, 2008)

ozymandias said:


> An unwed pregnant 17 year old is NOT a good thing. It's a terrible thing. But, the biggest issue I have with most politicians is that they all live in ivory towers, clueless to the "real world". Not SP, she lives like the rest of us where...no matter how hard you try, sometimes s**t happens



I agree. I'm tired of people trying to put these politicians up on a pedestal........ This woman hasn't been in politics for all that long, in the grand scheme of things. It makes me feel a bit assured that she has been living a life not unlike many......

Her son has been in the military and to Iraq.........so she knows the stress that many other mothers are experiencing....... Now we hear that her 17 year old daughter is pregnant. Something tells me that there are millions of other parents (who are not necessarily "bad parents", who will relate to her situation.)

I don't see her having affairs and lying to keep them a secret. I don't see her breaking any laws and trying to duck them. I see her as a mother dealing with a lot of what other mothers are going through in this society....... GIVE THE WOMAN A BREAK.


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## Tapestry Minis (Sep 1, 2008)

bingo said:


> OhHorsePee said:
> 
> 
> > . There are a lot of teen age pregnancies but that doesn't mean their momma was a bad momma. That means the child made a mistake in judgement. She is pregnant and they are being responsible about the pregnancy. I am a pro choice person but I have to admire that they stand next to their morals and have not terminated the pregnancy.
> ...


We can not live on "What Ifs" You can "What If" yourself blue in the face. "What If" is not a reality.


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## Sonya (Sep 1, 2008)

I have yet to reply to any of these threads regarding politics, but just want to say "Thankyou Jill"



. I wait your reply on all these threads as you can write/speak much more elequently than I and you get your point (and mine) across much easier than I ever could. You are a very intellegent respectable woman, so thanks for taking the words out of my mouth and the typing from my fingers...I think you need to run for office


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## bingo (Sep 1, 2008)

Tapestry Minis said:


> We can not live on "What Ifs" You can "What If" yourself blue in the face. "What If" is not a reality.



Well for me I would like the President and VP to actually think about the "What If" when making decisions in fact IMO it should be a huge part in their decision making for our country. Never looking at the "What If" can lead to a very harsh reality for many Americans.


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## alongman (Sep 1, 2008)

bingo said:


> Tapestry Minis said:
> 
> 
> > We can not live on "What Ifs" You can "What If" yourself blue in the face. "What If" is not a reality.
> ...


I believe that, and correct me if I'm wrong, that the statement regarding "what if" was "What if it [was not Bristols' (Palins' daughter)] wasn't her choice?" I took this to mean that Bristol was told she could not terminate her pregnancy based on what she was told, presumedly by her family, to do. If this is the case, then I believe it gives her mother and family some credibility - they are assuming the responsiblity and consequences of a decision that was made. They aren't brushing a teenage pregnancy under the rug and terminating it as I've seen and heard of others doing as a form of birth control. Did Palins' daughter make a good choice? Probably not, but that IS NOT for me to decide! I will NOT refer to her pregnancy as a mistake as I don't believe any child should be referred to as a "mistake". I will refer to it as a decision that has consequences - the same reality that each of us face every day. The fact that her mother stands behind her is quite a statement. I may not agree with everything this campaign has to offer, but THIS is one area that they are far above in my book.


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## Jill (Sep 1, 2008)

Sonya said:


> I have yet to reply to any of these threads regarding politics, but just want to say "Thankyou Jill"
> 
> 
> 
> . I wait your reply on all these threads as you can write/speak much more elequently than I and you get your point (and mine) across much easier than I ever could. You are a very intellegent respectable woman, so thanks for taking the words out of my mouth and the typing from my fingers...I think you need to run for office


Thank you so much, Sonya! I really respect your input and insight in so many discussions over the years. I appreciate that big compliment!!!


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## SWA (Sep 1, 2008)

bingo said:


> Tapestry Minis said:
> 
> 
> > We can not live on "What Ifs" You can "What If" yourself blue in the face. "What If" is not a reality.
> ...


I agree, in part, that those looking to lead a country should consider all the "what if's" in "Their" decision making process. However, in the context of this particular question of "what if", was in the context of "what if the shoe was on the other foot", and asked of the public in general for their opinion of a candidate....not in the context of a candidate themselves and their decision making capabilities.

Along the that leg of topic though...with regard to a candidates decision making capabilities.... Obama has shown a severe weakness in this regard, with records showing his inability to do so....consistently. He either doesn't or tends to hesitate to make a critical decision with self admittance to such in those "Saddleback Forum" videos posted on another thread. I believe he stated this in the Part 2 video of his responses to inquiries. With that shoe on the other foot... Palin has shown great strength, where when things need to be done, she does not hesitate to make those critical choices. Of course she weighs her thinking intelligently, but when coming right down to making her decisions, she does so emphatically, and then stands behind them and sees them through to actual results.

Personally, with a son of my own currently serving in Iraq, I want someone in office with that kind of CONFIDENCE in their capabilities to make critical decisions that could potentially jeopardize the situations over there. Obama, has not, and still does not show this kind of confidence...at least not that I've seen.

With regard to the "Teen Pregnancy" and the morality of such.... I find it rather ironic that the general "Liberalisms" of Hollywood can go an revere this "fact of life" in their movies and on TV shows, etc...but let it actually happen in "real life" and all of a sudden it should be shunned.

Yes, I agree, as most do of Christian faith, that teen pregnancies, while an unscrupulous, and life altering, choice of a teen, it was not an "unforgivable" one. Love the sinner, not the sin, so to speak. Same as any of the rest of us who make humanly errors in judgement throughout our lifetimes. We raise our children to the best of our abilities, and strive to instill such moralistic values best we can. However, when it comes right down to making that choice "to do or not to do" anything.... it is theirs alone to make. We can only hope and pray that when times come for them to make such choices, that those values will weigh on them in such a way to make wise choices. Unfortunately, this is not always the case...hence, teen pregnancies, teens on drugs, teens driving while drunk, and the list goes on and on. Parents cannot be with their teens for their every waking moment and make each and every decision FOR THEM, and then expect them to suddenly become responsible adults at the age of adulthood. Teens must learn to make choices on their own, and then fully expect to live with the lifetime of consequence to such choices. Parents can only hope to then also be there for them through the aftermath of their choices...good or bad.


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## SWA (Sep 1, 2008)

alongman said:


> bingo said:
> 
> 
> > Tapestry Minis said:
> ...


Thank you Adam, this is what I was trying to say as well, but yours is much more to the point in eloquence.


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## alongman (Sep 1, 2008)

SWA said:


> Thank you Adam, this is what I was trying to say as well, but yours is much more to the point in eloquence.


No problem!


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## Tapestry Minis (Sep 1, 2008)

My meaning of What IFs are if you sit and say...Well what if she told her daughter it was ok and what if she did this and that. I'm not saying to not look at life that way when you are making a decision. What I am saying is when you "What If" someones actions to death when you do not know the context. THAT is where you can "what if" all you want and never know what really happened.

Just like here, when you read something you put it into YOUR context which may not be the context that the author meant it to be. Just like my last post.....


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## bingo (Sep 1, 2008)

Actually Tapestry Minis perhaps it is you not understanding the context of things.

My point is simply this I can not and will not choose to vote for someone who is against a women's right to choose. I do not know how her daughter felt no one does but her daughter. However it is not a risk I am willing to take for my own daughter, sisters, friends.

Now that said I realize many others are very much pro-life. We will never change each others minds nor do I have any intention of trying here on this fourm.


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## Tapestry Minis (Sep 1, 2008)

The debate between Pro Choice or Pro Life was never a part of my point. So again putting it in your own context. My point was simple when something happens when you do not know the person or circumstances and chastising them in a "WHAT IF" scenario to me is pointless and just a way to get everyone in a tizzy over something you don't know.

Just that simple


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 2, 2008)

Country first? Today, it appears that Gov. Palin was a member of a party in the 1990's who was pushing for a vote to allow Alaska to secede from the U.S. Maybe she was just in support of the vote, not the action? Still, it makes me wonder about her commitment to our country.

http://blogs.abcnews.com/politicalpunch/20...rs-of-frin.html

Excerpt from above link:

"Members of 'Fringe' Alaskan Independence Party Say Palin Was a Member in 90s

September 01, 2008 6:52 PM

The campaign of Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., likes to herald the independence of its new running mate, Alaska Gov. Sarah Palin.

Officials of the Alaskan Independence Party say that Palin was once so independent, she was once a member of their party, which, since the 1970s, has been pushing for a legal vote for Alaskans to decide whether or not residents of the 49th state can secede from the United States.

And while McCain's motto -- as seen in a new TV ad -- is "Country First," the AIP's motto is the exact opposite -- "Alaska First -- Alaska Always.""


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## crponies (Sep 2, 2008)

I guess that wouldn't totally surprise me. She obviously is frustrated with many things in the federal government as it now is. However, people do change their views on things sometimes so maybe she no longer supports such a vote/idea as Alaska seceding (isn't that what the Civil War was about in part anyhow? Well, not Alaska but state's rights in general to secede).


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## bingo (Sep 2, 2008)

Tapestry Minis said:


> The debate between Pro Choice or Pro Life was never a part of my point. So again putting it in your own context. My point was simple when something happens when you do not know the person or circumstances and chastising them in a "WHAT IF" scenario to me is pointless and just a way to get everyone in a tizzy over something you don't know.
> Just that simple





Obviously you like to hear you are right. Only your point counts even when you question others. So here let me make your day.

You are right. Have a lovely day!











Just that simple!


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 2, 2008)

Well, I believe that a lot of people have lost focus about things that SHOULD matter in a presidential race just to undermind a vp candidate. To me that speaks volumes. I just hope that people look at what REALLY matters for a presidential candidate and their VP. To make an EDUCATED decision you must look at both candidates. You can not just say we had Republican and I don't like where it went so I am voting democrat and expect people to take you serious. Or at least I can not take someone serious that is doing that.

Fran


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## Jill (Sep 2, 2008)

You're right, Fran. People pick up on short "sound bites" that might sound good at first glace but when you actually think a little harder, maybe not so much!


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## Danielle_E. (Sep 2, 2008)

I found it quite interesting this morning when a woman was interviewed and she was mentioning that she was a Hillary supporter and of course the next question by the reporter was will you be voting for Obama and she said "no" she would be voting for McCain because of Palin. The reporter than said well their is quite a difference between Hillary's policies and stances on issues and Palin's and she said "yes, I know.... but I am dissapointed by Obama didn't take women seriously in this country and bring Hillary in as VP.

I thought the point of elections was to vote for the best person, whoever, based on your beliefs and the polciies you wish to see implemented not based on your anger because a woman was or wasn't brought into the mix and vice versa, if would men in this situation wouldn't vote for a woman just because or because of sexist views (they run both ways) or race, or religion or....

i guess what is most important to me in elections is to vote for a candidate that represents the policies I want brought into force.

As far as Palin's daughtger it should have absolutely NO BEARING on this at all and I pray they leave her alone, people and media. It is none of anyones business that she is pregnant and what her decisions are. This is a "family" matter not a public circus as is happening. How sad.


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## SWA (Sep 2, 2008)

Danielle_E. said:


> I found it quite interesting this morning when a woman was interviewed and she was mentioning that she was a Hillary supporter and of course the next question by the reporter was will you be voting for Obama and she said "no" she would be voting for McCain because of Palin. The reporter than said well their is quite a difference between Hillary's policies and stances on issues and Palin's and she said "yes, I know.... but I am dissapointed by Obama didn't take women seriously in this country and bring Hillary in as VP.
> I thought the point of elections was to vote for the best person, whoever, based on your beliefs and the polciies you wish to see implemented not based on your anger because a woman was or wasn't brought into the mix and vice versa, if would men in this situation wouldn't vote for a woman just because or because of sexist views (they run both ways) or race, or religion or....
> 
> i guess what is most important to me in elections is to vote for a candidate that represents the policies I want brought into force.
> ...


Sadly, this sounds typical of most "Hilary supporters" I've encountered...they're only basis of support for her was because SHE was a woman too. Nothing to do with any of her policies at all. A scarey reality.

I "Ditto" your sentiments though...



> * i guess what is most important to me in elections is to vote for a candidate that represents the policies I want brought into force.  *


If only that were a similar thought process of the American Public in general. Fortunately, it IS for most...still though, there are those few where a candidate's stand on policies are blindly of no concern for some. Or only choose their candidates based on a "tunnel visioned" criteria such as solely on whether or not the candidate is a female, or solely on whether or not they are Rebublican or Democrat, or solely on whether or not they are pro life or pro choice, and so on. Those are the ones with a dangeorus, yet priviledged, power to cast a vote ... should they even bother.






I guess it's fair to also point out that this is not just a problem in "American Public" type elections. But, in ANY country, where public voting from it's citizenship is a protocol. It's not just an "American" fault. Moreso a "Human" fault....some care enough to actually get informed of their matters priviledged to vote upon, some just cast a vote "because they can", and have that "tunnel visioned" self interest at stake. With little to no regard to the broader scale of how those votes will have impact. Yes, even in smaller realms...such as politics in "Horse Registries" even.


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## SWA (Sep 2, 2008)

Somone just asked this question privately, and I felt I should post a repsonse to better clarify my previous statement here....



> "Are you stating that as a Christian it is tunnel vision to vote for a candidate that is pro life even though one may like some of his policies less than the pro choice candidate that votes for partical birth abortions."



Thanks so much for asking this. Actually, NO, I wasn't stating that as a "Tunnel visioned Christian" at all. Just was giving examples of someone who bases their vote with tunnel vision, in that, they only base their reason of "for or against" someone with regard to only one issue at stake, as opposed ALL that a person has to offer or lack of.

Thanks so much for bringing that to my attention, and allowing me an opportunity to try to better clarify what I was trying to actually say.





Warmest appreciations,

Tanya


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## bingo (Sep 2, 2008)

SWA said:


> If only that were a similar thought process of the American Public in general. Fortunately, it IS for most...still though, there are those few where a candidate's stand on policies are blindly of no concern for some. Or only choose their candidates based on a "tunnel visioned" criteria such as solely on whether or not the candidate is a female, or solely on whether or not they are Rebublican or Democrat, or solely on whether or not they are pro life or pro choice, and so on. Those are the ones with a dangeorus, yet priviledged, power to cast a vote ... should they even bother.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Wow perhaps what is deemed unimportant to you might be the very issue that is most important to someone else.

But yet in your opinion why should they bother to vote they are dangerous when voting?

SCARY!


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## SWA (Sep 2, 2008)

bingo said:


> SWA said:
> 
> 
> > If only that were a similar thought process of the American Public in general. Fortunately, it IS for most...still though, there are those few where a candidate's stand on policies are blindly of no concern for some. Or only choose their candidates based on a "tunnel visioned" criteria such as solely on whether or not the candidate is a female, or solely on whether or not they are Rebublican or Democrat, or solely on whether or not they are pro life or pro choice, and so on. Those are the ones with a dangeorus, yet priviledged, power to cast a vote ... should they even bother.
> ...


Bingo??? Yes, in my opinion anyone who casts a vote based solely on the "one and only thing" most important to them, is pretty selfish of them to do so, when there are a vast diversity of issues that warrant such an important and heavily impactful decision to make, in the context of voting for a candidate who would potentially be charged with RUNNING AN ENTIRE NATION, of heavily impactful issues, foreign and domestic. In my opinion, yes, I do feel that would be a dangerous way to cast such a vote as this...whether it was based on any given issue that "I" would happen to agree with or disagree with personally.

All I'm saying is, for anyone to vote for someone just because (for example) they were a woman, as it is their one and only issue most important to them, to live to see the day a woman become President (in Hilary's case) or VP (In Palin's case) in the White House....is a pretty selfish and dangerous way to cast such an important vote. Paying no mind nor concern to the FULL EXTENT of content of what either would have to offer of themselves to such a position...other than the fact that they are of a person's preferred gender.



That's a DANGEROUSLY TUNNELED VISION way to cast such an important vote as this.

Not in any way saying that anyones personal convictions are any less meaningful or valid than the next persons...just that if they are going to cast a vote, I can only HOPE they would do so out of concern for our country as a whole, and do so with basis of a broader scale of concern than any one single "personal conviction".


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 3, 2008)

Danielle_E. said:


> As far as Palin's daughtger it should have absolutely NO BEARING on this at all and I pray they leave her alone, people and media. It is none of anyones business that she is pregnant and what her decisions are. This is a "family" matter not a public circus as is happening. How sad.


Thank you for saying that! This type of politics I can live without and it just solidifies my views. I really do not think it helps out the democratic stance either. Obama's mother was 18 when he was born.


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## Keri (Sep 3, 2008)

I keep thinking, how many other families have had an umarried, pregnant young daughter in their family??? My hubby's family and my family also. Its not all that uncommon now a days.


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## Marty (Sep 3, 2008)

Tanya, the reason I wouldn't be for Condelezza would be because we need here right where she is. She's one of a kind and needs to stay put I think becauase she does an amazing job and knows her job.

I'm thrilled with Sara Palin! I think she's enough to blow Obama right out of the water.

She's my kind of lady and I loved how she sold the jet on ebay. This is a woman that knows how to budget! I think she should run for President!


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 4, 2008)

Marty said:


> This is a woman that knows how to budget! I think she should run for President!


She sure does! From this link, posted in another thread: http://www.andrys.com/palin-kilkenny.html

"The huge increases in tax revenues during her mayoral administration

weren’t enough to fund everything on her wish list though, borrowed

money was needed, too. She inherited a city with zero debt, but left it

with indebtedness of over $22 million. What did Mayor Palin encourage

the voters to borrow money for? Was it the infrastructure that she said

she supported? The sewage treatment plant that the city lacked? or a

new library? No. $1m for a park. $15m-plus for construction of a

multi-use sports complex which she rushed through to build on a piece

of property that the City didn’t even have clear title to, that was

still in litigation 7 yrs later--to the delight of the lawyers

involved! The sports complex itself is a nice addition to the

community but a huge money pit, not the profit-generator she claimed it

would be. She also supported bonds for $5.5m for road projects that

could have been done in 5-7 yrs without any borrowing."


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## mrsj (Sep 4, 2008)

Hello all

I'm not really adding much to the discussion here so apologies!

I am finding this discussion very interesting as an outsider who won't be voting so it must be even better if you are.

I just wanted to add that it is so good to see such discussion as opposed to the apathy amongst voters here in the UK. Here we often have people who aren't bothered at all to vote and often if they are they vote for a party on one issue (as was commented on earlier) or because they've always voted for them or their parents voted for them etc. Do you find much of that happening in the US?

It's great to read your views and not just those of our biased media, thanks.


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

> I just wanted to add that it is so good to see such discussion as opposed to the apathy amongst voters here in the UK. Here we often have people who aren't bothered at all to vote and often if they are they vote for a party on one issue (as was commented on earlier) or because they've always voted for them or their parents voted for them etc. Do you find much of that happening in the US?


There are a lot of people who consistently vote on partly lines -- but I don't really feel many do it blindly. I feel they do support what their party stands for -- but that there is a big potential to be mislead by the media. Part of how a person feels about politics is of course how you were raised, but dispite our best efforts, my little sister is a Democrat





I myself do always vote Republican and feel passionate about why it's important to do so. It's because overall, I am a believer and supporter of the Republican ideals and values. Not on everything, but on the things most important to me, the Republican Party has the vision with which I align. I support McCain's defense, energy and fiscal agendas





However, I am more of a liberal Republican than a conservative Republican. For example, I would be in favor of gay marriage as a right for those who are gay and want to be married





In the current times, it honestly worries me deeply for our Nation if we end up with the Democratic nominee in office


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 4, 2008)

I LOVED Sarah Palin's speech last night! She was brilliant and held her own with everything that is being lashed out at her.

Here is a you tube link for those of you that did not get to see her. SARAH PALIN SPEECH I can not wait to see her go head to head with Biden!

Fran


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

YES!!! Sarah Palin was awesome!!! So was Rudy Giuliani



:yes





And, check THIS out about McCain's VP choice as she contrasts to Obama. Palin's more qualified to be Presdent than Obama is!
























































For more information: http://www.redstate.com/diaries/redstate/2...vs-barack-obam/


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

OhHorsePee said:


> I can not wait to see her go head to head with Biden!


As I hear it, Biden better bring his "A Game"


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## Bassett (Sep 4, 2008)

I also thought she gave a very good speech. She sure had the audience with her. And I'm sure all, if not most , of America right with her. I absolutely loved it when her daughter Piper licked on her hand and smoothed Trigs hair to slick it down.



Did you see that? It was precious. They will laugh at that for years to come. I think she is an ordinary family and will do us proud because she knows how to live an ordinary life. Can't wait to hear McCains speech tonight. Go MaCain/Palin


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## AppyLover2 (Sep 4, 2008)

I'm registered as an "independent" because I absolutely feel that votes should be made based on the candidate not the party. I watched the speeches last night and I know who I'm voting for.

I thoroughly enjoyed Guiliani's comments and Palin impressed me. I especially liked the comment she made about not going to Washington to win the favor of the media. Like many of you, I too disagree with her stand on the abortion issue but common sense tell us that a VP hardly has the power to change laws by themselves.

As far as John McCain is concerned, as a 20 year military veteran, I'm behind him all the way. He's lived through horrors that the majority of us can only imagine.....and walked away with his integrity intact. If he could retain his integrity through the torture he endured in Viet Nam there's no doubt in my mind that he can handle the issues facing him as President.


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## Laura (Sep 4, 2008)

AppyLover2 said:


> Like many of you, I too disagree with her stand on the abortion issue but common sense tell us that a VP hardly has the power to change laws by themselves.
> As far as John McCain is concerned, as a 20 year military veteran, I'm behind him all the way. He's lived through horrors that the majority of us can only imagine.....and walked away with his integrity intact. If he could retain his integrity through the torture he endured in Viet Nam there's no doubt in my mind that he can handle the issues facing him as President.


All the repealing of Roe V. Wade would take is about 2 new supreme court justices and that IS possible under a McCain/Palin (or just Palin) presidency. I absolutely respect and admire John McCain for his service to this country and consider him a true American hero, but in my opinion that has nothing to do with his suitablility for the Presidency. I know that there are many that disagree with me on this, but that's OK. In the US we get to disagree


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## txminipinto (Sep 4, 2008)

What I loved most about Palin's speech last night was you could tell that SHE wrote that speech herself. That was her with her words and boy did she have me eating out of her hand. She's real and that's what we need. Someone who's real, who's living our lives, who understands middle america, and who's got the *balls* to talk straight. I bet we see record numbers of voters this year.


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## Laura (Sep 4, 2008)

txminipinto said:


> What I loved most about Palin's speech last night was you could tell that SHE wrote that speech herself. That was her with her words and boy did she have me eating out of her hand. She's real and that's what we need. Someone who's real, who's living our lives, who understands middle america, and who's got the *balls* to talk straight. I bet we see record numbers of voters this year.


I hope she did write it. It was reported on CCN this morning that Bush's speechwriters wrote the majority of the speech before the selection for VP was even made.


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 4, 2008)

Laura said:


> I hope she did write it. It was reported on CCN this morning that Bush's speechwriters wrote the majority of the speech before the selection for VP was even made.



I realize CNN is never wrong. Look, they said Big Foot was real while Fox News laughed about it.


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## bingo (Sep 4, 2008)

I would doubt any politician that claims to have written their own speeches. No matter what party they are with.


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## Becky (Sep 4, 2008)

All I have to say regarding Sarah Palin is:

[SIZE=36pt]YOU GO GIRL!![/SIZE]


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## tagalong (Sep 4, 2008)

She may have added bits and pieces of her own - but rest assured the Republican string pullers had a lot of that speech carefully crafted for whoever the VP nominee was going to be... they would not take any chances of the wrong things beng said. As it was, apparently she had to improvise when the teleprompter went out - and did a good job !

*Jill* - the chart comparing OBama and Palin cracked me up - it was such a tongue-bathing of Palin that it was almost funny - but then - maybe it was supposed to be?






I guess I prefer a comparison that is more objective - for any candidate.

On the radio here this A.M. there were some residents of Wasilla who were NOT happy about the way Palin's much touted "executive experience" was being spun. She appointed herself an assistant when she was mayor to do most of the day to day work. The city was thrown into millions of dollars of debt while she was in office... and had no debt at all before she was elected...

They were somewhat stymied as to how she suddenly has all this "executive experience" and is "budget driven". So as with most politicians, things are not what they seem...

Attacks, praise stretch truth at GOP convention



> *Attacks, praise stretch truth at GOP convention*
> _By JIM KUHNHENN, Associated Press Writer Jim Kuhnhenn, Associated Press Writer _
> 
> Wed Sep 3, 11:48 pm ET
> ...


As always - it is best to NEVER take anything at face value when it comes to political speeches and soundbytes. _No matter who is involved._


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## Laura (Sep 4, 2008)

Thank you tagalong for posting that, it mirrors a lot of what I am reading from reputable, major news agencies.


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## AppyLover2 (Sep 4, 2008)

> ..., it mirrors a lot of what I am reading from reputable, major news agencies.


If you know of a reputable news agency that's reporting unbiased information I'd love to know who they are.


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## bingo (Sep 4, 2008)

I am curious why anytime someone posts something said or done that shows McCain might not be all he seems it suddenly becomes the press, media is biased and not to be trusted. Why then are the charts and info you find and are posting for him to be trusted? How are they any more reputable?


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 4, 2008)

Great post Tagalong!


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## Danielle_E. (Sep 4, 2008)

I absolutely loved her speech... she showed her true colors and the Democrats should be very happy.

http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515517.html

I would caution the Republicans to stop insulting other nations and telling them to not comment on the election in the U.S. as I said it does impact and hence the interest. To insult others is not prudent and hence the reason that the media had every right to ask about her foreign policy experience or lack thereof.

Ms. Palin, oh sorry Ms. Hockey Mom, Ms Pitbull" and where is this pipeline from Alaska to the U.S. going to go? Through Canada you say? Keep insulting and try and bully, you are doing just a fine job. Here in Canada we aren't so quick to believe things without looking at all sides (take a look at the link below to see what I mean). Seems like not all is on the up and up. The last laugh will be on you when the Democrats win the election because you have turned-off your electorate.

Today is a very good day





http://www.adn.com/sarah-palin/story/515517.html

And comparing Obama to Moses was very tacky on your part "Ms Pitbull". You might just get bit back but they you will cry "how dare they..." whatever.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 4, 2008)

I have noticed the same thing...must be just a tad bit of prejudice being written.



I definitely think that chart is something that is very biased and not giving a true picture of things at all, but it is what I have come to expect from Republicans. I do hope people aren't that easily misled and they will search out the truth before voting.







bingo said:


> I am curious why anytime someone posts something said or done that shows McCain might not be all he seems it suddenly becomes the press, media is biased and not to be trusted. Why then are the charts and info you find and are posting for him to be trusted? How are they any more reputable?


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 4, 2008)

I think the first thing that cheesed me off about the chart that got posted is "Candidate's full name". Palin's got a nice, long American sounding name. Obama's middle name is "Hussein". Now what do you suppose that section of the chart is doing? We don't need their full names, Barack Obama and Sara Palin work just fine.

Do you suppose someone was going out of their way to point out that Obama shares a name with a man we hate? Now WHY would someone do that? I refuse to believe that we as Americans are so easily swayed.

Do we shun everyone with the last name of 'Manson'? How about every man named Jeffery? I'm absolutely certain that there are plenty of women named Lorena out there who are still getting dates.

I'm very confident is saying that I KNOW no one here is a dummy, so I don't see the point of posting something so ridiculous.


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

tagalong said:


> *Jill* - the chart comparing OBama and Palin cracked me up - it was so painfully one-sided and and such a tongue-bathing of Palin that it was almost funny - but then - maybe it was supposed to be?
> 
> 
> 
> I guess I prefer a comaprison that is more objective - for any candidate.


*Tag* --

The information on the chart is all true. Period. It's True. If you don't like the contrast, well..........................

If you want to talk about bias, have you noticed anything LEFT about the majority of the US newspapers; ABC, CBS, and NBC network news; and MSNBC, HLN and CNN "cable" news channels? Which is probably exactly what gives you the "facts" on which you base your opinions.

Thank goodness for Fox News.

Jill


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

I cannot help but be more and more impressed with Palin. Her speech was outstanding and beautifuly delivered AND her teleprompter was not even working properly.

*Palin Overcame Teleprompter Problems, Missing Hard Copies*

"Foremost of the obstacles, Palin’s teleprompter was not working properly. When she took the podium, the machine rolled so quickly, it often skipped the first line or two of every paragraph on screen. The operator said he had new equipment and wasn’t sure how it would work."


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> I think the first thing that cheesed me off about the chart that got posted is "Candidate's full name". Palin's got a nice, long American sounding name. Obama's middle name is "Hussein". Now what do you suppose that section of the chart is doing? We don't need their full names, Barack Obama and Sara Palin work just fine.


His name, it's just a fact. Don't assign anymore to it than you choose. Personally, it's not a factor in how I feel about him as a Presidential candidate. The chart gives some facts and it's up to each person who reads it to decide what it all means to them.

I look forward to everyone hearing more and thinking harder about Obama's relationship to his moral and religious leader, the racist Reverend Jeremiah Wright. Despite Obama's attempt to explain some things were said out of context -- there are some things that really are their own context and no explanation is needed (and it cannot be "explained away").


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 4, 2008)

bingo said:


> I would doubt any politician that claims to have written their own speeches. No matter what party they are with.


Bingo, (Dang it what is your name??? LOL) My whole point was CNN talked about her speech being written for her. Which all of them have a person do it. If anyone was watching the OTHER news, or heck even ABC news said it also, her speech was not being fed to her prompters and then when they fixed it the speech was behind. Facts are she did an awesome job! I know who wrote her speech but she had to wing it.

Fran


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## tagalong (Sep 4, 2008)

> The information on the chart is all true. Period. It's True.


No, *Jill*... with all due respect, it isn't. I do not mind the comparisons - fine, yippy skippy, same old song, you know it will happen - but I do care about facts. No matter what you are "told" - a lot of those "facts" on that chart are anything but - as some Republicans have even acknowledged. Please look them up yourself - i.e. the Bridge to Nowhere - before just blindly accepting clever little soundbytes and email campaigns designed to paint a picture that may not be accurate.





The obvious ploy of bringing up Hussein again in such a painfully obvious way in order to make suggestions that are not true... well, plotics is a dirty game - on all sides at times. Why is anything to do with Palin being given the whitewashed All Is Good treatment?

I know this clip is from Jon Stewart's show... and one may not like him... but the clips speak for themselves. And they are just a few examples of the flip-flopping etc. that _all politicians and the media _engage in at times...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J8uGenNjOAI


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

> No, Jill... with all due respect, it isn't. I do not mind the comparisons - fine, yippy skippy, same old song, you know it will happen - but I do care about facts. No matter what you are "told" - a lot of those "facts" on that chart are anything but - as some Republicans have even acknowledged. Please look them up yourself - i.e. the Bridge to Nowhere - before just blindly accepting clever little soundbytes and email campaigns designed to paint a picture that may not be accurate.
> The obvious ploy of bringing up Hussein again in such a painfully obvious way in order to make suggestions that are not true... well, plotics is a dirty game - on all sides at times. Why is anything to do with Palin being given the whitewashed All Is Good treatment?
> 
> I know this clip is from Jon Stewart's show... and one may not like him... but the clips speak for themselves. And they are an example of the flip-flopping etc. that all politicians and the media engage in at times...
> ...


*Tag*,

I don't blindly accept anything. I think way too hard to be a blind follower.

It would be fascinating if you could spell out what you feel is not true on the chart. I stand by it -- it does list facts. They may not be the facts you like the most, but they're facts.

Jon Stewart is a funny man and he's made me laugh many times. But a sad fact is a lot of American's get the majority of their news from his show. Hello... it's carried exclusively by *Comedy Central*. I'll check that link out later if I'm looking for some laughs but I'm not going to credit it as an actual news source... I mean, think I've seen South Park air directly after his program (it's a funny show, too).

Can't say holding out Comedy Central's The Daily Show as a source does much to support the Democrat position





Jill


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## tagalong (Sep 4, 2008)

*Jill* - look up the Bridge to Nowhere stuff. It is not as has been painted on that chart. That is easy to verify - do it. Or, if you like, I will drag over links and such later tonight. It's there. _*shrug*_

I am in the middle of all this, sitting and watching. I cannot vote as I am a legal alien. I just abhor the spin, obfuscation, untruths and general b.s. that is a part of this presidential race... on any side. It has just become painfully obvious again this week with the sudden spotlight on Sarah Palin...



> Hello... it's carried exclusively by Comedy Central.


HELLO - because it pokes fun at such things - it is SATIRE about the news of the day.


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## Jill (Sep 4, 2008)

> I am in the middle of all this, sitting and watching. I cannot vote as I am a legal alien.


Tag, if I had realized you are not a US citizen, I actually would not have talked with you specifically on the subject of our Presidential election politics. Right or wrong, whatever, I just don't care to discuss something I am so passionate about that is the business of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens. While I enjoy discussing many other things with you, I don't feel like THIS is common ground.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 4, 2008)

Jill said:


> Right or wrong, whatever, I just don't care to discuss something I am so passionate about that is the business of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens.


OH!

...wow.


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## horseplay (Sep 4, 2008)

wow is right!



. My thoughts exactly Jill


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 4, 2008)

After that, I don't have much trouble seeing why other nations dislike America and it's politics. The thought that someone's opinion on America is invalid or even unwelcome because they are not a citizen is just so far beyond my understanding.

Really, do you not understand that America is not alone in this world? That valid points and opinions and models and experience can come from anyone, from any place and any station?


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## Minimor (Sep 4, 2008)

I have been waiting for someone to say something of a similar sort to me, though perhaps I haven't been vocal enough to make anyone say that. Darn it, why is it that when you WAIT for someone to say just the right (or is it wrong?) thing to you, it's like they know they shouldn't say it, and so they don't? That is just so annoying.

Or, maybe that's why no one does say anything to me, they see I'm living in Canada and therefore I do not "count" to talk with about US politics?



More fool them if that is the case.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 4, 2008)

No, see, we Americans know that you Canadians are a docile, peaceful people. We see no reason in provoking you.


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## tagalong (Sep 4, 2008)

> Tag, if I had realized you are not a US citizen, I actually would not have talked with you specifically on the subject of our Presidential election politics. Right or wrong, whatever, I just don't care to discuss something I am so passionate about that is the business of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens. While I enjoy discussing many other things with you, I don't feel like THIS is common ground.


Wow is right.

So unless I am a citizen, I am not entitled to an opinion... an observation... a thought? Not "allowed" to participate in such discussions? _What makes you think others cannot be passionate about this? _I live here. It affects me as much as it affects you. The fact that you can be so dismissive...





_Well, excuse me for caring._

Wow again.

I live here. I work here. I pay my taxes. I do endless hours of volunteer work in the community every week. I obey the law. I have jumped through all the endless bureaucratic nightmare of flaming hoops to be here legally - and it is not easy. You truly have no idea what a nightmare it can be. I felt kicked in the teeth when all the talk of granting amnesty to illegals - _even giving them green cards and citizenship as a reward for breaking the law _- was being proposed. Do things the legal way - as convoluted and belittling as it can be at times - and you may only get shafted. That seemed to be the message to all of us who have done the Right Thing. And yet we persevered anyway. Big whoop-ti-do, I know...

But you feel that I am not worthy? That my thoughts/concerns are beneath notice in any such discussion? I think I would have a fairly balanced outlook, to be honest - as I cannot influence the outcome one way or another. And I can see the flaws in both sides - without blindly accepting everything I am fed from the media or party press machines.

I suspect that if I was jumping up and down and praising McCain and Palin and ignoring all the usual political flip-flopping, embellishments and contradictions that you would not care that I was not a citizen.... I am willing to bet that would be the case, in fact.

Wow.





*Jill*, you really should check out that Daily Show clip. Not as a "news source" - just an observation. It is made up of clips from shows and commentators and even actual news sources you might find acceptable. McCain campaign people... Bill O'Reilly, Karl Rove... Sarah Palin.... their own words.

*minimor*.... I guess some do not understand why many Canadians are interested in the US elections. As Trudeau opined almost 40 years ago, living next to the US is like sleeping with an elephant. No matter how friendly and even-tempered the elephant is, one is affected by every twitch and grunt...


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## Chico (Sep 4, 2008)

No, the chart isn't accurate. If you really want to know honest facts do your research. Until then your just spouting untrue "statements". You can ignore the truth but it doesn't change what is true.


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## Laura (Sep 4, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> Jill said:
> 
> 
> > Right or wrong, whatever, I just don't care to discuss something I am so passionate about that is the business of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens.
> ...


You took the WOW right out of my mouth...


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## Crabby-Chicken (Sep 4, 2008)

Tag, if I had realized you are not a US citizen, I actually would not have talked with you specifically on the subject of our Presidential election politics. Right or wrong, whatever, I just don't care to discuss something I am so passionate about that is the business of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens. While I enjoy discussing many other things with you, I don't feel like THIS is common ground.

That has to be the rudest snobbiest comment I have ever heard...

MY opinion!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Minimor (Sep 5, 2008)

Well, you see, in the first place, even though I live in Canada I am not a Canadian as such--I am still a US citizen, as American as I can be, even though I do not live there at this time. Even if I someday take out my Canadian citizenship I will not lose my US citizenship...and so no one should ever go by where a person lives to judge what they have a right to comment on.

In the second place, for my part I find it extremely interesting to sit down with people from other countries and discuss politics this way. It's extremely interesting to hear what people from other countries think of the government policies of each of our countries. This is even more so with people like Tagalong...and myself...for I am in the same situation as tagalong, only in reverse. I cannot vote in Canada because I have not taken out my Canadian citizenship. However, I live and work and pay taxes in this country. My life is affected by decisions made by all levels of government--and the same is true for tagalong living in the US...we are legal, not illegal, "aliens" for goodness sake!--and I certainly believe that I have the right to have opinions and *gasp* even voice those opinions in any discussion. (Actually I'm more properly called a landed immigrant, but believe me, people do like to make "alien" jokes when I tell them I am not a citizen.) I don't believe that I have ever before run into someone, anyone, that would suggest I don't belong in a discussion of Canadian politics! Wow.

As a side note, I will say that no matter what country I'm in, I do not consider Jon Stewart to be a worthy news source. I would not vote for him as Prime Minister, even if I could vote, and I certainly wouldn't want to support him as US President...



OH!

Yes, for sure it is as Pierre Trudeau said about sleeping with an elephant. Whatever happens in the US does ultimately affect Canada...free trade, the value of the US dollar...the list goes on and on when it comes to things that affect us here in Canada. So there is a reason why Canadians have an interest in what happens in US politics!


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

Sorry if people who are not US citizens don't like that I don't want to debate our politics with them but trust me, I'm not the only one who feels that way. People can think that's snobby if they choose. Let me know the next time you want to let me debate your own matters with you, you know... the ones I don't actually live day to day or have an honest stake in. I said and meant:



> Tag, if I had realized you are not a US citizen, I actually would not have talked with you specifically on the subject of our Presidential election politics. Right or wrong, whatever, I just don't care to discuss something I am so passionate about that is the business of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens. While I enjoy discussing many other things with you, I don't feel like THIS is common ground.


If anything, I might choose to say "I would not have debated..." vs "I would not have talked..." but in essence, I absolutely meant to say what I did.


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## Minimor (Sep 5, 2008)

> the ones I don't actually live day to day or have an honest stake in.


Question for you Jill--how does someone like tagalong, who does live day to day in the American economy not qualify to discuss politics of that country? I just honestly do not get that one.
And did you know that people like me--US citizens who live outside the country and therefore do not live day to day in the american dream...actually do get to vote for who runs "our" country??? I can vote, just like you can, but by your standards I really shouldn't talk about it??


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

Holly, Tag "qualifies" to discuss US politics with anyone who'd like to discuss them with her. I personally do not care to debate the politics of our Nation with people who are not US Citizens. What is there to not understand?


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## Minimor (Sep 5, 2008)

Your way of thinking !



I have just never before come across anyone who had that attitude toward non-citizens and political discussions, that's all.


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

Holly, I can easily elaborate and explain "my way of thinking" which I guess is confusing to you. Just pretty much a re-statement of what I said and meant on another similar thread.

I do not care what other nations think of our President or our Politics. Citizens of other nations do not know what it's like to be an American at this time (and this includes legal and illegal aliens).

Foreign media is even more biased than our own. Most of their leaders would prefer our Nation not to be the world power that it is. Lots of ulterior motives from the leaders in other nations, and also from many of their citizens as well (immigration comes to mind).

It annoys me to see people who are not US Citizens get adamant about the politics of the USA. Not only is it not within any other country's power to decide, it's also beyond their citizen's ability to actually know and deeply care what's best for our Nation. They do not know what it's like to live here as a United States Citizen in these times and their opinions of our politics do not weigh on my mind.

Honestly, I cannot think of anything else to say that would clarify how and why I feel as I do. While I understand some people may not agree with my opinion, I don't think it's hard to understand that this is a valid point of view. I'm not the only one who feels this way.


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## Charley (Sep 5, 2008)

I totally understand and agree with Jill.

btw My mother is Canadian, a legal alien living in the U.S. I am proudly a U.S. citizen.


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## whitney (Sep 5, 2008)

I understand Passion. BUT when it is such, that it creates walls, I don't think its productive. I've read every post. I will not be voting for a president that will make me feel warm and fuzzy, but for one that can make my country STRONG. That said after the Rep convention I'm climbing back on the fence again.

The MEDIA is the PROBLEM. They have the tools to give us JUST the FACTS in black and white but that won't get viewers.....so they spin.

Those that have posted, give me a website that isn't party specific and just lists the facts, voting records, attendance. Thats ALL I need to make my decision.

My only question of McCain is.....

Can he get along/get things done, on the playground? He is one man that has to convince both the House and Senate to agree with him. Also re foreign affairs the same deal. I agree with force when necessary, but I've learned you get more with sugar. Does he have the temperament?


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## tagalong (Sep 5, 2008)

> It annoys me to see people who are not US Citizens get adamant about the politics of the USA. Not only is it not within any other country's power to decide, it's also beyond their citizen's ability to actually know and deeply care what's best for our Nation. *They do not know what it's like to live here as a United States Citizen in these times *and their opinions of our politics do not weigh on my mind.


EXCUSE ME? *EXCUSE ME??!!*






_*looks around*_

I seem to be here. For like - 9 years. Living just as all the American citizens do - and you would not know I wasn't one just from looking at me or talking to me. You could not pick me out of a line-up. I do not even say EH or _oot and aboot_. I LIVE HERE. I WORK HERE. I love my job. My friends - who do not care that I am not a citizen. The disabled riders I teach and volunteer with. They also do not care. You do not think that the events of 9/11 affected me here? Do you think that any of the people I met that day as we talked in hushed tones and raged and worried and cried gave a flying fig that I was not a citizen? I have taken a lot of crap from unbelievably rude and bullying immigration officers in order to be here - you have no idea. I do have a stake in what goes on and like to discuss it. All opinions matter to any discussion - and to summarily - and rudely - just sneer and dismiss the concerns of others because it many not be what you want to hear... shows that you really do not want to "discuss" any of this. It seems to be your way or the highway and no one else's opinion matters. Or they are lying. Or a joke. There is no need for that... it is far better to examine all sides of every issue. Or so one would think. I have been critical of a lot of the Democratic tactics as well. I am not wearing blinders. I am not one-sided. I never will be.

When the US figures in the affairs of so many countries - you think others should not be interested in what happens in the elections? It would be extremely short-sighted - and stupid - _*not* to Pay Attention_.

*Jill *- are you going to check everyone's citizenship and/or immigration status before you deign to consider their opinions? *minimor* and others who may live out of the country are not permitted to have a thought or express a concern?

Apparently not.

Wow. Again.

*Jill* - I can only surmise that you do not realize how that sounds - especially the way you have put it. Or - as you hinted - you do know and do not give a rip.

It was bad enough when W made it clear that illegals might be granted amnesty and given a pat on the head and handed the documentation FOR NOTHING (other than breaking the law) that so many of us have worked so hard for. We were shown that we did not matter - the illegals were far more important. If that had gone through it would have been a major kick in the teeth.

The way you have so rudely dismissed me - or anyone else in a similar situation... is also kind of a kick in the teeth.

Thank you.





*And I can assure you that I care a lot more about what goes on in this country that a lot of the citizens around here who are not going to vote - and have not voted in a very long time. If ever. *

And before you mention it and hold it over my head for some reason - I cannot become a citizen. My type of visa does not permit it. Nor does it permit you to apply for a green card. Yet. You need to have a green card and be a legal alien for 5 years in order to start the process. So the 9 years I have been here _do not count_..,


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 5, 2008)

See, I'm always interested in what everyone has to say about America's politics. I think anytime someone adopts a 'la la la la I can't hear you!' stance on anything, they're doing themselves a disservice. I know many people from other countries who follow American politics more closely than an awful lot of Americans, people who have lived here as non-citizens but have experienced America from a unique angle. And personally, I can't fathom _not_ wanting to hear those opinions!

Of course Jill's entitled to her opinions and she's free to discuss (or not discuss) politics with whoever she wants. You're made your reasons clear, Jill, but I still don't _understand._

Tag and everyone else, keep posting. In defense of my own country most of us aren't so unwelcoming of your opinions.


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

*Lowrise*:

You do not have to _understand_ why I _feel_ as I do. All I can do (and don't need to do) is explain my reasoning which I did. I've also received MANY PM's and Emails from Americans who feel precisely as I do concerning debating our politics with non US citizens.

I just re-watched McCain's speech from last night. Right now, I _feel_ very hopeful, proud and inspired.

Now, do you want to disuss the candidates? McCain and his VP choice? I think that's the topic title. Or do you just want to keep debating my opinions -- which is what you keep doing. I'm pretty well informed on both counts.

Jill


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 5, 2008)

I think I've already posted my opinion on Palin, but if I didn't, here we go:

This woman is just the opposite of everything I want in a political candidate. I think that sums it up nicely.

See? I talk politics with everyone.





But Jill, I thank you for your opinions and for helping me make up my mind about a few things. I'm going to swing by Obama's campaign HQ here in town and sign up to volunteer.


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

> I'm going to swing by Obama's campaign HQ here in town and sign up to volunteer.


That's great, Lowrise. You'll probably make lots of friends through it as well. That's been my experience when it comes to that kind of thing


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## bingo (Sep 5, 2008)

I truly have been reading these threads with an open mind. I had not yet made up my mind. This thread has taught me a lot. I have seen some recurring themes from one side and have decided firmly who I will not vote for.

If firmly believe a leader is only as good as his followers. McCains followers on this thread have shown me without a doubt what side I choose to be a part of! Lowrise I will be doing the same thing this evening.


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

Maybe I should call John and Sarah and let them know they better rev things up!!!












But, seriously, good for both of you getting more involved


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## horseplay (Sep 5, 2008)

Now bingo, I have to believe you are smarter then too vote based on a few people you happen to disagree with here.



. That's just plain silly


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

horseplay said:


> Now bingo, I have to believe you are smarter then too vote based on a few people you happen to disagree with here.
> 
> 
> 
> . That's just plain silly


I think you're right but I'm also wondering if I can use this "power" to influence the outcome of American Idol or to help pick the next new M&M color???


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## bingo (Sep 5, 2008)

horseplay said:


> Now bingo, I have to believe you are smarter then too vote based on a few people you happen to disagree with here.
> 
> 
> 
> . That's just plain silly



Of course I simply meant I tried to have an open mind I am not married to either party so to speak. The behavior and opinions stated here clearly reaffirmed all that I do not like about McCain , Bush and their party. It is not about disagreeing with a few people it is about the beliefs and ideals* the leader of the free world* and his followers who tend to follow pretty blindly will have. I simply can not support that period!


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## horseplay (Sep 5, 2008)

Could be just me but even after rereading your post several times it seems pretty clear what you were saying. Peoples first reaction is normally how they honestly feel. I would never pick one democrates statements or even several and then assume all democrates are a certain way, again that's just plain silly IMO.


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## bingo (Sep 5, 2008)

horseplay said:


> Could be just me but even after rereading your post several times it seems pretty clear what you were saying. Peoples first reaction is normally how they honestly feel. I would never pick one democrates statements or even several and then assume all democrates are a certain way, again that's just plain silly IMO.




Ahhhh righteousness gotta love it....... NOT








Whatever gets you thru the day I could say more but obviously would be


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## horseplay (Sep 5, 2008)

LOL righteousness ? That is even more silly. Parties don't mean a thing to me, I will say it again I would NOT judge a whole party by a few followers plain and simple. I look at the people running but that's just me. Sometimes it's hard to not let what others say bother you but it's best to just let it go, it's not healthy.

I see you edited your last post, "what ever gets me thru the day"



wow, you need to chill.


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## Jill (Sep 5, 2008)

bingo said:


> I truly have been reading these threads with an open mind. I had not yet made up my mind. This thread has taught me a lot. I have seen some recurring themes from one side and have decided firmly who I will not vote for.
> If firmly believe a leader is only as good as his followers. McCains followers on this thread have shown me without a doubt what side I choose to be a part of! Lowrise I will be doing the same thing this evening.


Fascinating... I'm thinking how it's a shame nothing Obama himself has said the past year or so inspired you to get involved in the way some of our Republican members have. Maybe by elections, you can feel as enthusiastic about him as President as I have been feeling for McCain.


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## bingo (Sep 5, 2008)

Well while you keep trying to convince everyone your way is the right way and debate who or who doesn't have the right to have valid opinions I will be off enjoying myself in Tulsa. Have a great night!


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

alongman said:


> They aren't brushing a teenage pregnancy under the rug and terminating it as I've seen and heard of others doing as a form of birth control. Did Palins' daughter make a good choice? Probably not, but that IS NOT for me to decide! * I will NOT **refer to her pregnancy as a mistake as I don't believe any child should be referred to as a "mistake".* I will refer to it as a decision that has consequences - the same reality that each of us face every day. The fact that her mother stands behind her is quite a statement. I may not agree with everything this campaign has to offer, but THIS is one area that they are far above in my book.



I don't normally talk politics with people except my own family. I have to admit a couple of things on this thread just hit me wrong.

Adam I agree with your statement 100%. *" I" bolded *the most special part to me in your quote above.

I do NOT think it is the WORLDS business about Mrs. Palins teenage daughter's pregnancy. This does NOT in my eyes make her a bad mother.

Now, let's be real here - How many of us were virgins when we got married? How many of us have problems with birth control pills, etc.?

*I am NOT asking ANYONE to answer the question above. I am just speaking from experience from my own family.*

Thank you Adam for such a " true" statement in my eyes - that has been quoted above.


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

tagalong said:


> > It annoys me to see people who are not US Citizens get adamant about the politics of the USA. Not only is it not within any other country's power to decide, it's also beyond their citizen's ability to actually know and deeply care what's best for our Nation. *They do not know what it's like to live here as a United States Citizen in these times *and their opinions of our politics do not weigh on my mind.
> 
> 
> EXCUSE ME? *EXCUSE ME??!!*
> ...




Tagalong,

I still can't get this quote thing figured out - I will put in red in your quote's above that bothers me.

I have to to be honest because I do not understand a few things.

Ok, my sister in law was born in Germany - She is like you said you are - You could not pick her out of a line up. She did have a Green Card for several years. You are right it is NOT EASY - but, she did become a United States Citizen. So, my concerns and maybe I don't understand ( and how could I when my sister-in-law did it). Why you have lived here 9 years and you still have not taken the test, etc. - everything that is REQUIRED to become a US Citizen?

By reading your quotes - that I highlighted in RED - if you mean what you say. Then I have to say I see where Jill is coming from. Why would I want to " debate" an issue if you do not care enough to become a USA Citizen?

I don't mean " talk" to you.

I also can understand talking and discussing issues with people from other countries - because they do NOT have a choice. They live in another country. You live here in the United States of America !

If you care as much as you say you do - than I hope you can explain in a way that I can understand WHY you can not become a US Citizen. Because my sister in law did it - so, why can't you? I guess that bothers me the most.


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 6, 2008)

bingo said:


> I truly have been reading these threads with an open mind. I had not yet made up my mind. This thread has taught me a lot. I have seen some recurring themes from one side and have decided firmly who I will not vote for.
> If firmly believe a leader is only as good as his followers. McCains followers on this thread have shown me without a doubt what side I choose to be a part of! Lowrise I will be doing the same thing this evening.



WOW! What's that all about? I have spent days hearing garbage about republicans whether they are in the news or not. Liberalism, by definition, I surely have not seen on here. I think people need to truely see what the party they are suppose to be representing stands for.

Fran


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## Jill (Sep 6, 2008)

It is pretty ridiculous to be won over to the other side because you do not like the opinions or attitudes of a few Republican members of LB. It's honestly crazy that we're to believe we actually inspired two members to not just vote for Obama but to volunteer to work for him as well! From two people who were previously undecided... We must be VERY inspirational!


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## AppyLover2 (Sep 6, 2008)

I gotta say I'm surprised this thread is still open. Several days ago I expected it to be not only locked....but locked and the key thrown away. It started out as an informational debate and has turned into something else entirely. I sure wish you ladies could/would just agree to disagree and let's get on with our opportunity to share information and views. I'm neither agreeing nor disagreeing with any of you.....it's JMHO.


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## Jill (Sep 6, 2008)

Donna, believe it or not, I actually agree completely.


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## Minimor (Sep 6, 2008)

Lisa, read tagalong's last paragraph again--it explains why citizenship is not possible



> And before you mention it and hold it over my head for some reason - I cannot become a citizen. My type of visa does not permit it. Nor does it permit you to apply for a green card. Yet. You need to have a green card and be a legal alien for 5 years in order to start the process. So the 9 years I have been here do not count..,


There are different kinds of visas--you say your sister-in-law from Germany had a green card...tagalong does not have a green card. There is the difference. No green card, no citizenship.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 6, 2008)

Well I am glad to see everyone has just kept this thread a debate.



I will add that I think anyone that is not an American has a right to speak up about what the U.S. does for outr government definiotely has it's nose in other countries business most of the time. What our government does or doesn't do has an effect in many ways on other countries. JMHO

What is written below is one reason that I have a difficult time voting Republican....it seems they are always ready to help out the rich guys [nothing wrong with being rich if it was earned withour harming others] while the middle class pay for it. JUst like the unneeed war we will be paying for this for a very long time and I do hate seeing our children and grandchildren etc. pay for some huge mistakes



> WASHINGTON - The government is expected to take over Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac as soon as this weekend in a monumental move designed to protect the mortgage market from the failure of the two companies, which together hold or guarantee half of the nation's mortgage debt, a person briefed on the matter said Friday night.
> 
> 
> Some of the details of the intervention, which could cost taxpayers billions, were not yet available, but are expected to include the departure of Fannie Mae CEO Daniel Mudd and Freddie Mac CEO Richard Syron, according to the source, who asked not to be named because the plan was yet to be announced.
> ...


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## Jill (Sep 6, 2008)

Mary, to be clear, I never said people who are not US Citizens don't have a right to say what they wish about our political system. However, it is my choice not to debate the politics of my Country with people who are not US Citizens. I couldn't care less who likes that or not.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 6, 2008)

Jill, I am sorry you took what I said personally. It was not meant for you [did not use your name] It was only an opinion I hold to be worthy of being said because I do know our government has it's nose in other countries business and feel it should tend to it's own and then we would be in a lot less trouble and better off. To know that Bush borrowed money from China to give a hand out to American ciitizens in hopes of it improving the economy is, in my opinion, another horrible mistake. If mistakes keep on being made, I truly feel for the upcoming generations. This is not about you, it is about our beloved country and people in it and the world.



Jill said:


> Mary, to be clear, I never said people who are not US Citizens don't have a right to say what they wish about our political system. However, it is my choice not to debate the politics of my Country with people who are not US Citizens. I couldn't care less who likes that or not.


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## tagalong (Sep 6, 2008)

> Ok, my sister in law was born in Germany - She is like you said you are - You could not pick her out of a line up. She did have a Green Card for several years. You are right it is NOT EASY - but, she did become a United States Citizen. So, my concerns and maybe I don't understand ( and how could I when my sister-in-law did it). Why you have lived here 9 years and you still have not taken the test, etc. - everything that is REQUIRED to become a US Citizen?


*Lisa* - I explained that. Because I knew someone would decide to hold that over my head and make a point of it. *minimor* also explained. It is right there in the *RED* part you quoted.



> By reading your quotes - that I highlighted in RED - if you mean what you say. Then I have to say I see where Jill is coming from. *Why would I want to " debate" an issue if you do not care enough to become a USA Citizen?*


Once again - *I explained that*. Did you actually read what I said or just want to believe as you wish? I am sorry if I sound a bit frustrated - but to be honest I have felt rather insulted and sneered at in this thread. You do not have to be a US citizen to take part in a discussion about the issues. Many of those issues affect people outside of the US... but some feel that only US citizens should be able to discuss or debate such things. That is rather short-sighted and extremely jingoistic IMO, but, for instance *Jill *is entitled to her opinion even if she stated it rather rudely. Even many of her fellow US citizens were appalled at that rudeness - both on the thread and in PMs.



> I also can understand talking and discussing issues with people from other countries - because they do NOT have a choice. They live in another country. You live here in the United States of America !


Please excuse me - but I do not understand this comment - what difference does it make where someone lives if they want to discuss a subject? How do people in other countries "not have a choice" when it comes to discussing issues? _*confused*_



> If you care as much as you say you do - than I hope you can explain in a way that I can understand WHY you can not become a US Citizen. Because my sister in law did it - so, why can't you? I guess that bothers me the most.


*Lisa* - for the third time - I did explain it. *minimor* explained it. The thread seems to be turning into an Inquisition - provide your paperwork please or you are not worthy of having an opinion or joining in the debate/discussion!!

For the *last *time - I will try again. Althoug I am not sure why this has turned into an investigation about _me..._





My type of visa can not be used as a simple process to citizenship. Or even a green card. You seem to think they are just handed out willy-nilly... but no. There is a lottery for them - and 50,000 green cards are awarded annually - but Canada, Mexico, the United Kingdom etc. are on the list of countries that are not allowed to take part. So you must then do it the long bureaucratic way and jump through all the hoops - _and it can take many years._ It is not easy... it is not fun. In order to start the citizenship process, you must be a legal resident of green card status for 5 years. My visa does not have that green card status - thus the 9 years I have been here do not count. In my case, there is no way to start the citizenship process. None.

_And now that I have had to explain my personal business to those who doubt and sneer and are bothered... could we please get back on topic? _






_*frustrated*_


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## Charley (Sep 6, 2008)

I do not know a lot about types of Visas. I do know that years ago my husband sent a resume to an energy company in Canada. He got back an nice "no thank you, we do not hire Americans" letter. So I think it goes both ways. Also my husband has dealt with hiring people in other countries....like France. They have a must be a European Union Country (if which France is a member) citizen policy unless the job last less than a certain period of time (i.e. temporary).

Tagalong, I am glad that you are happy working and living in the USA. And thank you for sharing the info on your Visa. It helps us to understand a little more about our immigration and Visa issues.


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

Tagalong - before " quoting" people PLEASE read what they said.

I said I CAN understand talking with other contries....Not, I CAN NOT understand.

As far as I am concerned I have stayed on topic. To me Politics and Voting go hand in hand. Also, it is all over the news about Mrs. Palins 17 year old daughter being pregnant.

I was stating my opinion on Mrs. Palin's daughter - I do NOT think it is right to judge her as a mother as I stated in my last post.

Tagalong - someone is going to have to give me a lesson is history than. Because I can't imagine it is easier to get a *Green Card from Germany *and then become a US Citizen when my sister in law had a green card since Kindergarten - Yes, I knew her and her family almost all of my life. We are now 44 ( well she is 42) , look how far Germany has came since then.

I will say this -

*Her mother - that I think the world of - has a Green Card - but, she still can't speak good English, read good English,etc. NO, she NEVER became a US Citizen - I do NOT hold that against her. She would NEVER pass the test. So, yes I would sit down at her table and discuss politics.*

Now, my sister in law's - sister - We were best friends in school - She has a Green Card and never cared to become a US Citizen - she now basically lives off the government. I can't stand it and I will never know how we were best friends in school. I guess people change!

My sister-in-law - I don't even like - but, I have respect for her in that area. Because she did care enough to get her US citizenship and she can Vote.

Now, the difference I see in my sister-in-laws Mother - Is she is a SMART lady - just not in the English language. She worked very hard until she HAD to retire.

I can tell you are SMART enough to pass the test, etc. So, I still do not understand.

That I guess is where I need a lesson in History - but, if you want to say anymore I would suggest we take it to another thread. I just wanted to defend what I posted to other people in other Country's.

My history lesson does not belong here - In my opinion.

Now, I will also add - when I think of Canada I honestly DO NOT know why with Canada and a few other Country's out there I don't even feel like I am talking to someone out of the US. So, yes I would in every way talk to them.

I can also see where Canadian people would be very interested in what is happening in the USA.

I would LOVE to know how health care works in Canada. Do they like how it is set up, etc? Honestly, I think our Health Care is one of the biggest problems in the US. Well, I am defiantly NOT talking about 911, etc. - Obviously that is EXTREMELY more important.

I personally would hate to see this thread locked. Although, I will take my personal beliefs to another thread.

I would not want myself to be the reason someone's thread gets locked.

I don't know why my computer does this sometimes - I apologize for my thread showing up three times - I have reported it. to the moderators


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## anita (Sep 6, 2008)

President Bush, Senator McCain und Senator Kennedy wanted for illegal Immigrants in the country:

Pay a fine, get an ID, pay taxes and live your american dream"

Congress like always vetoed against it wanted $ 5000 per head, work 6 years and go back line in your country and wait 6-20 years for path of citizenship. That's impossible for a family with 3 children pay to $25 000 right now and go home and stay in line for 20 years.

All of the sudden everything what President Bush proposed fired in differnd direction.

Homeland Security Cheerhoff said I take care of that. Closed immigration offices, build federal prisons, hired agents and fed immigration judges all of tax payers money and went out to catch people.

Please don't blame everything on President Bush. Congress took over our country two years ago with leader Pelosi ( the women with "safe our planet" with gas prices sky high and folks try hard to get food on the table) and her followers are to blame for that.

Thank you for reading

Anita


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## Jill (Sep 6, 2008)

anita said:


> Please don't blame everything on President Bush. Congress took over our country two years ago with leader Pelosi ( the women with "safe our planet" with gas prices sky high and folks try hard to get food on the table) and her followers are to blame for that.


Well said, Anita!


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## tagalong (Sep 6, 2008)

> Tagalong - before " quoting" people PLEASE read what they said.
> I said I CAN understand talking with other contries....Not, I CAN NOT understand.


*Lisa *- I did read what you said. I always read posts before I comment. Always.

I quoted something you said that I did not understand and asked for clarification.

This was that part...



> I also can understand talking and discussing issues with people from other countries - *because they do NOT have a choice.* They live in another country. You live here in the United States of America !


This seemed a bit confusing to me... I just wanted some clarification on the * they do not have a choice *comment... I completely understood that you were okay with discussing things with non-US citizens.





I agree that Palin's family should not be the focus of any of the campaign - even though they were trotted out on stage for us all to see...

As Obama said -_ family is off limits._ He's right.



> Please don't blame everything on President Bush. Congress took over our country two years ago with leader Pelosi ( the women with "safe our planet" with gas prices sky high and folks try hard to get food on the table) and her followers are to blame for that.


The Democrats became the majority in congress in Jan 2007 after 12 years of Republican control. Apparently voters thought it was time for a change after 12 years... even though current issues like gas prices, the economy and that expensive little war continue to deteriorate Americans' confidence in the government. Approval ratings would be low no matter who had the majority. And bear in mind that the President can veto anything that Congress votes for - and does.

It also helps to realize that in the past 8 years, W has managed to increase the national debt by a whooping 36% or so... and thus leaves McCain & Palin with a huge mess to account for and deal with. Including his Mission Accomplished. IMO he has not done his party - or many Americans - any favours.


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

Tagalong - I tried to quote the part I was talking about - that I feel you mis- quoted me on. For some reason, it brought the whole page over. I still can't figure out the quote thing.

I " think" I know where Jill is coming from. I do know where "I "am coming from. As, I stated before - I don't want someones thread locked because of me.

You do have to understand - As Americans we are living in a very scary time.

Now, if you want to discuss Visa's with me - My suggestion is we take it to another thread.

As I stated before I do not want this topic locked because of me. It is a GOOD THREAD!


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 6, 2008)

Nothing in this thread really pushed me to voting for Obama-he was already my pick. But I have been of the mind for a while that hey, we could do worse than McCain.

That was before the RNC, before Palin, and before it was brought to my attention just how much control the Republican party has taken of this "Maverick". Things I have seen and read in this thread simply further cemented my choice in my mind and told me that if I care about the future of my country I need to do everything possible to make sure Obama makes it into office.

And Tag, you can always talk politics with me if you want. I don't discriminate.


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

Tagalong - I will say this - Please name one person that has ever run for office that did not show the public their family?

I do not see Mrs. Palins showing her family - as parading as you stated - she is doing the very same thing any other public official has done in the past.

Lowriseminis - I sure hope that comment was not directed towards me - I do NOT discriminate towards, race, etc. - but, I do feel I have FREEDOM OF SPEECH.


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## tagalong (Sep 6, 2008)

LisaF. said:


> Tagalong - I will say this - Please name one person that has ever run for office that did not show the public their family?
> I do not see Mrs. Palins showing her family - as parading as you stated - she is doing the very same thing any other public official has done in the past.


*Lisa* - I merely meant that even though they were all paraded up on stage (including Bristol's hubby-to-be) as all candidates tend to do - that there was still no need for family matters to be dragged into the campaign issues.



> And Tag, you can always talk politics with me if you want. I don't discriminate.


In an election as crucial and as important as this one - that affects far more than just the US - _IMO *all *opinions and concerns are part of the mix_. Citizen or not. American or not. Canadian. Whoever...


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 6, 2008)

tagalong said:


> In an election as crucial and as important as this one - that affects far more than just the US - _IMO *all *opinions and concerns are part of the mix_. Citizen or not. American or not. Canadian. Whoever...


My thoughts exactly, Tag.


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## AppyLover2 (Sep 6, 2008)

I agree with Lisa about Governor Palin's family. My guess is that if she hadn't brought her family to the Convention, and if she *hadn't* introduced them and then brought them on stage she would be accused of trying to "hide" things. Her daughter and her boyfriend have my respect for appearing publicly when they have to know that the whole world is talking about them right now.

On another topic - I personally hate all the mud-slinging that goes on and can remember a time (is anybody else this old?) when it wasn't as common as it is today....Now if the candidates don't do enough of it the *media does*. Unfortunately I guess we can expect it to get a whole lot worse before it gets better This is a quote from something I read earlier today *"Truth is the first casualty not only in war, but also in the closing days of a campaign."* Put your muck boots on folks....it's gonna get a whole lot deeper in the next 2 months.


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

AppyLover2 - I agree with you also - If she would not have brought her family, then in my opinion she would be accussed of being ashamed and hiding her family.

Tagalong - What I meant by if they don't live in the USA they don't have a choice is this - I understand wanting to discuss/debate - but, they do not have a choice because they CAN NOT VOTE! You ( I sure wish I knew who I was talking to) said you have lived here for 9 years, but you are not a US Citizen - Since you DO LIVE HERE - then you have a choice to become a US Citizen and Vote.

I posted another thread and I am still hoping for an answer.

Both you and Minimore said you don't have a Green Card - So, you can't go through the process to become a US Citizen.

I am asking - Why you do not have a Greed Card?

It is my understanding anyone that lives in the United States - that comes from any Country is given a Green Card if they live here legally.

From my understanding is you and minimore said I am WRONG - So, please explain this to me in the other thread.

I just posted this because I just realized you asked me what I meant by people in other Country's not having a choice. I am trying to explain what I meant by that. Now, I am hoping in re-turn you, Minimore, or anyone can explain to me why I am wrong about the Green Card.


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## Minimor (Sep 6, 2008)

Lisa, on the other thread I have posted one reason why some people are working in the US without a green card...I'm not saying that is tagalong's situation--because I don't know tagalong's exact situation and nor do I know all there is to know about visas and the different ones available.

But, I have posted what I know about the situation of some people I know that are working in the US without green cards and without the possibility of taking out citizenship.



> you have lived here for 9 years, but you are not a US Citizen - Since you DO LIVE HERE - then you have a choice to become a US Citizen and Vote.


no, in tagalong's case, as has been stated, there is no such choice, just as there is no such choice for many other Canadians that are living and working in the US. Many of those that do succeed in moving to the US to live and work are successful only because they have chosen the "right" career. Many, many Canadians are refused in their application to move to the US. I actually had an offer of marriage from someone who wanted to move to the US and would have been happy to use my US citizenship as a means to getting there. Too bad for him that I wanted no part of marrying him nor of moving to Florida!


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## LisaF. (Sep 6, 2008)

minimore - sounds like you were smart in your decission.

Also, thank you - I have posted in the other thread.


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