# Hips and Hyperbikes



## AngC (Mar 14, 2015)

I don't know squat about driving.

To keep Baby entertained I got her a pack saddle (with no intention of packing.) She's about wore that one out; took her two months. So I think we've made a good start, as in she's accustomed to having all sorts of strappy things all over her body. I'm rather afraid to try driving, but on the other hand I'm tempted because she's just so darn easy.

So I've been looking at the hyperbike. and have a couple questions:

1.) The position of the driver appears to be rather "spread-eagled?" I have a hip replacement (and lack some side-to-side flexibility on the hips) so I'm wondering if anyone with a fake hip has experience with one of these? Is it comfortable or does it leave you screaming in pain within a few minutes?

2.) How is one these "off-road" (i.e. off-pavement or whatever?) Because I don't know what I'm doing, I would want to experiment out in the pastures. I wouldn't want to take her off property if I even got to that point. And if I did go out, she'd have to traverse a gravel driveway and the only other place she would drive is on a chip-n-seal road.

3.) The hyperbike website doesn't appear to have harnesses. Can someone give me a link or two to sites that sell harnesses and perhaps some information on how to fit a harness to Baby?

Thank you.


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## vickie gee (Mar 14, 2015)

Driving does look like terrific fun! The old saying "got the horse before the cart" came to mind after I bought a harness and have just let it remain unused in the box it shipped to me in...guess I "bought the harness before the cart." I use having no time as my excuse.

Suggest you send forum member Carriage (Bb Bob) a PM to get loads of expertise on carts and carriages and bikes. Advertising one's for sale items on forum threads would or at least could result in receiving demerits for rule breaking. He would be a great "go to" person. Good luck, it looks like such a fun hobby for both horse and owner.


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## Margo_C-T (Mar 14, 2015)

Carriage is the builder of the Hyperbike, so I'm guessing he 'may' recommend it.....


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## Peggy Porter (Mar 14, 2015)

Actually, Bb would probably not recommend the hyperbike for a green-broke horse, especially not as a first vehicle. I love my bike, but it definitely has a niche use. As far as your hips, getting in and out is the hardest part. You have to be able to lift your leg over the shaft while your horse stands perfectly still (which is why you need a solid driving horse) Once seated, I find the bike extremely comfortable for off-roading over the hills, river, and through the woods!

A few good names for harness: www.iowavalleycarriage.com. Www.chimacumtack.com. Www.yonies.com.

I love my betathane harnesses for easy care.


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## AngC (Mar 16, 2015)

ok, thanks. I think. ...or maybe not.

Let me clarify a couple things. ... Baby is not "green-broke" to driving; she's "no-broke" or whatever you would call it. ((But how do you ever get started?))

I certainly did not want to earn demerits and was not soliciting advertising. I guess I should have approached the seller of the cart I had in mind. But what's the point of that? For all I know, he/she/it might tell me all is wonderful. I was seeking outside opinions. Perhaps I haven't researched enough, but I've poked around in this forum and while I don't fully understand the difference between "types" of carts vice "brand-names," I've seen discussions here of carts that look to me like they're "brand-names."

Baby's going to outlive me. She's the most beautiful little horse, but she's not registered. So I figure, the more I teach her to do; the more apt somebody might want her, someday. And she is hugely willing (as long as she's finished her breakfast.)

So maybe I'll back up a little and check out the harness links (...was just thinking one should figure out the cart before I commit to harness.) But I guess a next step would be to get her in some sort of harness, and then go from there.


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## MiniNHF (Mar 16, 2015)

If your not going to show her in big shows I would suggest an easy entry cart, I know there is a lot of them for sale ive seen on facebook miniature horse sale groups especially ones geared towards carts/driving. I boguht one used and its great for my first time in the cart and my boys, if something happens its not going to get seriously damaged like an expensive show cart because its all metal. I bought mine used and it does the job that I need it to and I plan on using it for "trail riding" in the future with some other people and their minis.

Star Lake Tack has some nice harnesses and are extremely friendly and helpful if you have any questions etc I enjoy doing business with them.


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 16, 2015)

Great way for you to enjoy Baby. The easy entry might be best. I've been to a nursing home and given rides before and there were some very crippled folks who were able to get into the cart and enjoy themselves. So, if you get Baby going, no reason you shouldn't have many years of driving pleasure!

I notice that since I turned 60 I have more trouble climbing into my sulky. I'm sure the hyperbike is similar. But once I get in, I feel more secure with the stirrups than in an EZ.

The thing I like best about the EZ is being able to share the fun with a passenger.


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## Champ (Mar 16, 2015)

I have a hyperbike and love it however.....I agree with Peggy P. a hyperbike is not a cart for a mini that is not well trained to drive, they are also hard to get in and out of. My suggestion would be to find a trainer who trains minis for driving, there is so much to learn about the different types of harnesses and carts that you really need to learn from someone. I would also suggest taking driving lessons with a mini that already knows how to drive. Driving is a lot of fun however.....it can be extremely dangerous and a lot can go wrong.


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## AngC (Mar 17, 2015)

ok... good suggestions. No cart for us. (...yet.)

But still, I'd like to try to start getting Baby accustomed to some sort of harness.

Can anyone suggest a book that describes how to start a horse in a harness? ...like, for example, I don't know how it's done, but perhaps I could strap her in and then walk behind her and do some ground-work? There's all sorts of things she would have to get used to; like, for example, the blinders. I had read that a horse should not be asked to tow weight until they're 3 years old. Baby will be 3 years end of May this year. So, perhaps, this is not the year of the cart, but maybe I could start doing some things to get her ready.

I understand that the optimum would be to have a trainer (haven't found one around here, except one and just don't feel they're a good fit for me.) And I understand that in addition to teaching Baby, the human (me) needs to be trained. I will search on some of the suggestions.

Sure wish someone would recommend a book (I'm a book person) that would give me an overview. Thanks.


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## MiniNHF (Mar 18, 2015)

excellent excellent videos - Patty Clokes DVD's. I watched I believe her first four in her series and I learn excellent tips and tricks from them.

http://clokestables.corriswebsitedesign.com/dvds.html


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## Margo_C-T (Mar 18, 2015)

One of the very best books available is 'The Essential Guide to Carriage Driving', by Jaye-Allison Winkel and Robyn Coffey(whose name is misspelled on Amazon's site....) I just checked; it is available fromAmazon, but it is very much recommended and I think, was a fairly limited edition, so don't wait to get one! It is very thorough, well-written, clear and easy to understand, and comprehensive. I own several of the books most often recommended by those who are serious and accomplished-in-every-aspect drivers; this is one I would never be without!(My copy is loaned out, and I need to and WILL get it back...and probably won't loan it again, as it is too valuable to me to risk losing!)It is well and clearly illustrated, too.


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## Carriage (Mar 19, 2015)

Thank you Miss Peggy and others.

I do not sell the 'Bike until the team has earned their wings. In this case with a hip question I would further press for you to go and do a 2 hr trail drive in the rig before I would feel comfortable selling you one. In reality, I don't "sell" you anything because I am not a salesman.

My name and word is of FAR more value to me than "making" a sale that I know I should NOT have made! As I told a customer recently, "You cannot loose with me". It is a sad state of affairs when a potential customer feels that they cannot trust the word and motives of the maker because of rampant deceitfulness.


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## AngC (Mar 20, 2015)

Thank you for the book suggestion. It appears that it's only sold used. Searching on that title on Amazon brought up a slew of other suggested titles; I will sift through them, but I'm still open to any other suggestions regarding books. I'm not so keen on the videos, but if I have to I will. (I like to flop on the couch and read/analyze endlessly; flip pages; re-read, etc.) I've been checking out the links on harnesses and reading some more on-line. Baby's head doesn't look that small to me, but I guess her head is kind of small.

I looked at the 'easy-entry-type' carts. Other than my personal opinion that they're ugly, I'm dubious how they would be on uneven ground. That is why I was looking at the Hyperbike. It looks like I could take my time with the Hyperbike and stay in the pasture. Of course, I didn't think about stepping over a shaft to get into it. In fact, I was more concerned at the angle of the cart-riders' legs, because it looked like it could potentially strain my hip. [i can stand independently on one leg and lift the other to a height of about 24-30 inches.] Looking at the pictures, my concern is spreading the leg angle when seated and add in the "bumping around" that would occur as you go along. I don't know; I guess I'll have to think about it.

Right now, I think I'll just try to find some sort of harness that fits. ...to get her started. ...Screw the cart, for now.


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## AngC (Mar 20, 2015)

Carriage said:


> ... I do not sell the Bike until the team has earned their wings. In this case with a hip question I would further press for you to go and do a 2 hr trail drive in the rig before I would feel comfortable selling you one.


ok, slap me with a stupid-stick. Are you the seller of these carts? I'm dense, but I was noticing that the Hyperbike person posts here on the forums. If you're not the seller, then who on earth would send me a cart of this cost and let me test it out for a couple hours? Really?

I wish somebody made custom carts. ...I'd commission my husband,, but who knows what'd I'd end up with.


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## paintponylvr (Mar 20, 2015)

O...

Hmmm, pls don't strap her into anything. You can harness her. When you are both ready, you hitch or hook to the cart/carriage/wagon. Hmm, will have to check, but I believe you "hook" to farm equipment and "drags".

You can start ground driving before you even get your harness. You want her to be comfortable w/ you behind her asking her to move forward. You don't need a harness for that. You can use two leadlines hooked to each side of her halter to direct her. You don't want her to turn and face you. This one may be best in your situation w/ the halter - since you've mentioned problems w/ hands and fingers (no bit, no blinders to start).

You can introduce her to any terms that apply to driving that you aren't using yet. I figure you are already using "Whoa"? Then train for "Stand", "walk", "walk-on", "trot", "trot-on" and so on. Also some term that means take one step forward - I use "step-up". And you also want a reverse = such as "back" or "back-up". She needs to be comfortable w/you walking on either side of her as well as behind.

Books I recommend - Breaking and training the driving horse - by Doris Ganton - an oldie but goodie w/ concise and clear instructions, drawings and blk/wh photos.

There are a multitude of books here - Ozark Mini Tack - Books - Driving

The other one I recommend is the 2nd one down. It is newer and she uses mini horses to show the pics - both color and blk/wh. Star Lake Tack - Driving Books

There are many/many driving books out there. I've gotten a lot of them over the years - and the most expensive ones are usually the ones I've ben most disappointed with - nice pics but sparse or not understandable explanations that may not be in order that I'm familiar with (and could be disastrous for a newby driver!). Since you/your horses get bored quickly (you've stated that in other posts) - I would highly recommend the book by Cherry Hill called 101 Ground Trainin Exercises

I would start there. Neither one actually gives a time frame to go to next steps - which i found frustrating when I was trying to calculate how long it would take to get a horse started and driving. I've learned there's a reason for that. I know how to ground drive. I didn't know how to harness. I didn't know, when I got my carts, how to hitch. Each horse and driver are different as to learning. Bell and Bit - full sisters - have very different personalities and responses to everything. Bit was pretty difficult to get going - took MUCH LONGER than Bell... There for - you do each step until comfortable and "solid" (I think you will know when??) and then go to the next one that is recommended. You might spend just minutes on one sections and HOURS on another. You can incorporate ground driving while leading and going for "walkies" down the road!

Your horses have had lots of handling and exposure to "stuff" (at least at home) from what you've described. They don't appear to be spooky (most important when driving). That helps a lot.

Harness - there are at least 4 places advertised on this forum that have harness for minis. I've posted links to 2 above. there are many others. I get my harness, now, from an Amish harness shop out of OH. There are other Amish shops closer to you on the west coast OR you can deal with them via phone/mail (most amish don't have websites). You can get very workable and affordable harness.

I don't like using my work harness w/ collars/hames w/ the ez entry carts - the saddles aren't padded correctly for the weight of the cart/shafts & the single trees aren't in right areas for "draft". I do use pleasure driving harness for the EZ entry and show cart.

I don't use a hyperbike and right now not sure I could easily get into one (plus most of our ponies are over the height limits even for the larger size). BUT I do use a sulky cart extensively - I have had repairs done to it and also had a single tree installed. I have driven trails including over branches, downed limbs and big trees (have to dismount the cart, drive horse over, horse HAS TO STOP, lift cart over, remount the cart and drive on!)... I now have the no air tires on it. Not as forgiving for shock absorbtion, but NO FLATS out on those trails. I've driven for up to 4 hours in this cart - my achey hips & back are ok w/ that! Actually nicer sometimes than the other carts/wagons we have. I'm over 250 pounds myself and this cart can support my weight and the ponies - even the 35" one - can pull me in it for hours at a time. One ez entry cart we have is very heavy, the other I had was much lighter. I have other places for EZ entry and other carts I can tell you about, too.

AngC - I have LOADS of pics of us training our ponies to drive... They aren't all perfect, possibly not all safe (we've made our share of mistakes - most I can/would point out). Over the years since 2010, I've posted LOTS OF THEM HERE on this forum. I can post them again.

Bell

Bit

Bell Bit pair

to start... Go to the end of Bell's & Pair album and start from there working your way back to current pics. Bit's - pics of her dead colt at the very end - might not want to go that far. Bit's album does show some of her intro to harness (except the bucking at breeching - couldn't hold pony by myself and take pics at same time). there are a lot more pics than these...


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## Brody (Mar 20, 2015)

You all are going to get me into trouble, I just spent some more money on suggested books! Thanks for the great suggestions and information on the thread. I've been driving for years (trained my gelding almost 20 years ago now!), but have basically been self-taught. Looking forward to what I can learn from some of the suggested books!


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## AngC (Mar 22, 2015)

ok... shoot me. I don't know the proper terminology. Did I say "strap" or "hook" or "drags" or whatever? ...I guess I must have. Sorry.

One of the first books I found was Cherry Hill's _101 Ground Training Exercises_. Loved it. I especially like it because it didn't set a time-table of when I needed to do things. Baby and I have worked through much of it. We don't have a round pen, so Baby and I had to make do. Some lessons I did not attempt; for example, I recollect one where I was supposed to use a rope to pick up Baby's foot. I didn't see the point of that (other than we could both make a big old entangled mess) also we had already been picking up her feet since a couple weeks old. That said, I will go back through that book, because perhaps I missed something.

Sometimes people give you suggestions that cause a light bulb to flash over your head. paintponylvr's suggestion to use 2 lines and walk behind Baby!!! Why didn't I think of that?!? I can't run/trot too well. But I think Baby will be quite amenable to barging forward with two leadlines (she's been having this naughty teen-ager behavior where she always wants to "go in front" and I've been disciplining her to stay with me when we walk on halter.) Baby knows the rudimentary commands like Whoa, Walk, Back, etc. I taught her most of them off-halter and have been back-fitting her to do them 'on halter.'

I 've been looking at the harness links; I'm so clueless that I really think I should find a book. I don't want to plague sellers with my dumb questions. So I'm going to back up...way back. And research some more.

Also, I totally forgot about bits. I don't even know what type of bit to get (my faded memories of horses include curb, snaffle and no-bit hackamore.) ...I wonder if you can drive without a bit (Baby is not going to like a bit; plus her mouth/nose is so small; I'm wondering whether I'll have problems fitting a bit to her.) (...wonder whether one get a harness remove the bit; is it intergral?) ...see what I mean? I am woefully deficient and will read more.

Anyway, thanks for the help.


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## AngC (Mar 22, 2015)

This site is getting rather frustrating. I was trying to beat the 10 minute limit on editing and it kicked me out and then locked up. So the latter part of my prior post has some errors; hopefully it makes sense.


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## paintponylvr (Mar 22, 2015)

AngC said:


> ok... shoot me. I don't know the proper terminology. Did I say "strap" or "hook" or "drags" or whatever? ...I guess I must have. Sorry.
> 
> You did - Post #9. Personally, I didn't address it right away as normally if someone used that terminology, I would run, not walk, the other way. Too many other things that could go wrong with someone who still believes that is the way things are done. I was surprised you used it, since you've "been reading this forum and researching"... No reason to shoot you though.
> 
> ...


Back to books!!

Because you have such a thirst for knowledge AND like being able to go back and reference things, I HIGHLY recommend a book that is meant for "TEAMSTERS" (draft horse drivers). The author has done a GREAT JOB of historical coverage as well as current info. The newest editions have had current info added - as to harness type, make and equipment that wasn't available long ago being made again now. There are many drawings and pictures. It also comes with a companion book that covers training/knowledge not just for the horse BUT for the driver. I still haven't read it cover to cover - it stays in my truck and when I stop at a fast food or restaurant by myself I take it in. I try to read new parts and then go on to re-read older sections. It's HUGE.

Also it seems that there used to be a few folks that used Shetlands and minis for farm work - some of the OLD blk/wh photos of them are very awe-inspiring and neat!

Covers lines, different line configurations for doing different things, harness (including pleasure harness) types and how they looked/worked. Driving single, pair and much larger multiples. Talks about the horseman's understanding of his "partners" feelings as well as needs when being worked...

Work Horse Handbook

and it's partner book - Training Work Horses/Training Teamsters

These two, for me, are in-valuable and cover a lot of info in depth.


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## paintponylvr (Mar 22, 2015)

the only pic that shows the braided haystring bit well...





















There are actually 3 different bits on these 4 ponies. The bay/white mare is wearing the braided haystring bit. The youngster beside her to HER left is wearing a narrow mouthpiece, stainless steel 1/2 cheek driving snaffle. The two light colored mares on the outside are in their 20s and they are wearing copper, narrow mouthpiece 1/2 cheek driving snaffles. The "1/2 cheek" is supposed to prevent the bit from pulling thru the mouth if horse refuses to give/bend or if driver is too heavy handed (OK - both of those need to be addressed elsewhere...but). In my OPINION it works as a pressure point to give more direction for your turn... I like them.

To see more pics of me and them learning to drive as a 4 abreast and also 3 abreast (1 different pony) go to this album. Some of the pics aren't "pretty" learning to handle this many ponies is not the easiest - I am learning to develop more finesse to avoid all the mouth pulling and head tossing (also - as stated in previous post - the "nervous Nellie" bay/wh mare has been sold on).

3 and 4 Abreast driving

I ALSO took all 4 mares with me up to OH to the maker of the lines - and found out they'd sent me the lines put together wrong. Even though I had them run correctly - they were wrong - pulling ponies wrong directions. There is a lot going on in these pics and I'm glad my girlfriend was able to take them. I have not yet done 4 abreast to equipment - MIGHT get to that this summer!


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## paintponylvr (Mar 22, 2015)

You mentioned not having a round pen.

It's not necessary for any training, to be honest.

For me/us - it's been a catch pen, a quarantine pen, a feed pen and a training focus. Again, I have a large number of ponies from young to old. I have, over the years, given many riding lessons to children as well as beginning adult riders. It's a smaller area for them to be in that allows them to concentrate on what they need to learn and develop both balance and control while riding while lowering fear. I did a lot of bareback/bridleless riding in my own (parents') roundpen while growing up to develop my own balance when I had no instructor handy.

In a driving/young pony/horse - it is a focus for training. Both for the driver and for the horse. It contains the horse - his reactions - and "improves" concentration. It contains the horse in a smaller area while a "newbie" driver gets the feel of driving - making it MUCH LESS frustrating for both! Trust me - it takes time to learn to handle lines when first ground driving and getting the horse NOT TO TURN and face you. A round pen (OR ANY SMALLER FENCED area) can HELP.

Just to get used to the lines - a 12x12 stall can be helpful.

A "round pen" for focus can be as simple as a few boards on the ground - marking the boundary of a circle. Sure - the horse can "escape" - but while in side the "ring" it gives you/her the ability to focus on doing some circles, x-ing the ring, practicing stops & reinbacks (backing up) etc.

**********

We haven't discussed a "rein-board" - which would give you the feel of your lines w/o confusing/upsetting the horse you are learning to drive...


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## AngC (Mar 24, 2015)

Yup. I did indeed say "strap her in" in post #9. Sorry. I've been trying to back-pedal and bow out gracefully for a couple posts now.

And I have read on this forum some (but obviously not enough) however, I don't think there's anything wrong with reading a book to try and get an overview to learn where I'm going. Perhaps I should have been more explicit in my book recommendation request. I've never bought a used (out-of-print) book off Amazon. I really don't want to. We (husband and I) have had our charge card info compromised 3 times in the last 10 years; the worst was $2600 at Red Lobster (how in the heck?) Luckily we noticed quickly and we have a good financial institution. But, I'm rather particular where I shop anymore. So I'm not too keen on doing business with the "smaller" niche sellers. (I've made an exception since we owned our horsies twice; 1 was the nibble net for the girls, the other was the pack saddle for Baby.)

And I guess the reason I started this thread is because driving is something I'd like to try but I'm afraid to do so. So I thought if I talked/typed about it I would feel encouraged. Anyway, I understand that I was frustrating and I apologize. But the good news is that I did get something out of this.....

The 2 lunge lines seemed like a nice idea. So I tried it. I had to have the husband put a bigger ring on Baby's halter because our lunge lines have massive snap-hook-thingies (warning ...that was an incorrect term.) She toodled along with me behind, and I think she did ok. I don't know, maybe she didn't. I have no idea how long this should take.

Then curiosity got the better of me. I have this Radio Flyer wagon that I used to use for gardening.

I put Baby's pack saddle/harness on. I tied some easily-breakable twine at her shoulder level onto whatever that harness thing is called and ran it back to the little handle on the wagon. Then I had the husband stand by her head (in case things went wrong) and I was behind the whole mess with the 2 lunge lines. I don't guess this idea falls into the best practices category, but I told her to Walk and she walked. ...no spooking--despite the jury-rigged wagon rattling along behind her. About the only problem we had was that she kept trying to turn around to see what was in the wagon (might be food, you know.)

I know that was probably not the most intelligent thing to do. But I don't know if that is something other people could do with their horse on the first try. Apparently, it's probably not something I should even ask here. So thanks for the ideas. (I sure am proud of her, though.)


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## paintponylvr (Mar 24, 2015)

here are some photos of 1 of our yearlings w/ our youngest daughter working with him. This is the 2nd day to be "harnessed" and ground driven. On the 3rd, Sierra did the same as you - she put a little wash basket that I'd filled w/ weeds (pulling by hand rather than using herbicide) behind him and attached it to the traces/breast collar she'd put on him that day (no pics of that). After I calmed down, I realized he was one that was fine with that.












Here is my girl friend ground driving him as a coming 2 yr old. Still no bridle at this point. Even at this age and w/ our own "green" training - he has nice form and response. The bottom pic shows him working in a circle around Vicki.











A year later, though, he DID freak out when hitched in a sulky cart. I stepped out before he came unglued and he basically destroyed it! Broke the harness in two places AND was months before he could safely be hitched by himself - think he always remembers when he'd been hooked to the sulky - still not really sure what we did or what caused him to have a problem - but he's not usually ever driven by himself, so my girlfriend (who now owns him) doesn't care. And he's AWESOME as a pair... He can/does fine with pulling logs by himself.

We think it was going thru the leaves. But still don't know... It might have been the way that the shafts "bumped" and "contained" him - we went back and did A TON of work with him and he did plenty of kicking and bucking while pulling shafts thru the leaves...

Here's a pic of him before he came unglued -


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## paintponylvr (Mar 24, 2015)

Continued work -






and with two "shafts"






Before the day/month that he came unglued, he'd started working as a pair his new owners' (vicki) mare. Here was their first hitch to our heavy farm wagon (really too big for the shetlands BUT worked really nice for training)... Maybe he was upset that they weren't together? Neither pony is wearing blinders in the photo below - but are wearing the "open" headstalls I braided from haystring.






I think this was one of the first works with blinder bridles on... Taken the same week that he was doing shaft work as a single w/ the pvc poles after breaking the cart and harness (single).






and this was taken 2 yrs later in the fall of 2013. I have no idea when Kreature was last driven single...


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## paintponylvr (Mar 24, 2015)

At the time Kreature came unglued while hitched, he'd been driving for 3 months as a single driving pony with pleasure harness to an ez entry cart. He'd been getting driven several times a week. The day he came unglued was his first hitch to my sulky cart and it's possible that it was a combination of the noise it didn't make in the leaves, w/ the leaves crunching and then the way it was on him (the shafts are too long - I've always used it anyway - adjusting the lengths of the traces to have the pony in the right place...

Who knows??

Out of the 25 horses and ponies we've started in harness, only 4 were able to be hitched to an object w/i a couple of times of ground driving. In all cases, we went back later and did more ground work with each pony (Kreature after the wreck, Bell and KoKo just 'cuz. Blizzard, after just a couple of hitches, went on to become a riding pony only as he outgrew the harness and cart we had at the time)... A couple have never become ez drivers that were quiet - instead staying tense and upset from the time the harness was put on them until it was removed.

I DO own one mare that gets completely upset if she is hitched to the ez entry cart. It's noisy. The sulky cart is not. She'll work all day pulling farm equipment single or w/ a partner or two or pulling the sulky cart. Hitching her to the ez entry - you see an immediate change in her personality!! Maybe bad - but I changed carts in a hurry - I simply didn't want another wreck.

the rest? Hitching them to an object that soon could have been very bad.


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## paintponylvr (Mar 24, 2015)

As to the other - I don't think I'd survive w/o catalog and online shopping at this point! LOL. I grew up w/ my family regularly ordering from Sears, Wards & JC Penney's. During the 13 months I spent in Korea - I had products sent to me from a variety of mail order catalogs - Spiegels was one of the first (yea, when I was younger and THIN...LOL). I haven't had the issues you've had w/ on line stuff from Amazon BUT we have w/ ours right in our own state utility bills!! So I completely understand (OMG - $2600 @ Red Lobster??).

Hmm, I've kept saying I would do a book list and seem to never get around to it. Right now, my books are packed so I wouldn't have an accurate listing since I'd probably forget to lay out several.

I just realized that a couple I suggested are "sold out" right now. Not sure if they will be reprinted or what is going on



. I know that I went to the Dixie Draft Horse Sale last Fri/Sat and 2 of the Vendors had more than one copy of each of the books I'd recommended... I've always been able to get current prints of the books I've suggested BUT I usually DON"T get books thru Amazon or eBay. I get them thru either catalogs, on-line websites or in person at some of the events I've gone to. A few have been carried by tack stores as well.

I have ordered or made almost all of our mini/shetland equipment since I got back into the small equine in 1995. None of the tack stores I go to carry equipment small enough for Shetlands or minis.. Again, I wouldn't have "survived" without catalog or on-line ordering. I think I've ordered from 10 different mini catalogs/websites - with a favored 3 or 4 that I always go back to.

I regularly order items from Valley Vet, Dover Saddlery, Schneider Tack, Stateline Tack, Jeffers Equine (and Pet), Smith & Fosters (dog/cat stuff), KV Vet, Allivet, Heartland Vet Supply, United Vet Equine since 1997. I usually look up products on line and then call them to do my orders & pay over the phone w/ my "card". I get special emails from a lot of these and will purchase items in bulk (Ivermectin paste wormer @ $1.99/tube, BOGO clipper blades etc) when I get those email coupons. Had coupons one year for name brand horse blankets (in horse sizes) - got them for almost $200/less per blanket and gave them to a friend as her Xmas gift for her new horse who was in desperate need of a couple of blankets. It was AWESOME...

As to getting books - do you have a book store around you anywhere? Barnes & Noble or Books a Million are the two big chains I'm aware of. You can take info on a book into them and have them order it for you - they deal with the shipping/loss and you can pay in cash when it arrives. I don't know if other book stores can/will do this or not.


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## AngC (Mar 26, 2015)

paintponylvr said:


> ...Hitching them to an object that soon could have been very bad.


Point taken. And I agree; but I was being "egged on" by the husband. I've spent too much time with Baby to do something stupid that would make her "spooky."

I haven't had time to read through this all thoroughly. (heck, who needs a book? I'll just read your posts



) I had looked at the photos at your photo-hosting site (there were a couple pics in there that were invaluable to me; perhaps someday I'll tell you about that) but the ones in post #23 here were great because it showed me how you do the two lunge lines (or whatever you call them.) I didn't know how/where to attach them so I winged it.

I do apologize again (and I mean that) because if I'm going to communicate with people I should at least learn the terminology before I pester people with questions.

There's a couple questions I'm dying to ask about gear in your photos, but I will not until I educate myself further. For now, I'm perfectly happy just doing a little bit every day. Baby is going to take however long she wants; and you've given me a few more ideas.

...no more wagon hook-ups!


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## paintponylvr (Mar 26, 2015)

Hopefully chix have enuf feed/water as I'm nursing a massive headache sitting here, before going to work... I'll try answering some ?s before you ask.

If you are wondering about the "orange" gear - it's "custom made". I had much fewer ponies in 2009 and NO MONEY for a while. I had LOTS of haystring - the type wrapped in continuous piece around the round bales we were buying. I've always made my gear - off and on thru the years. I remembered a book (s) about making tack and I hunted for it (was heavily advertised in Western Horseman magazine in 70s - went out for a while and then was reprinted and brought back). I ordered it - and it wasn't that different from braiding I was doing already. So I washed (rinsed in feed buckets w/ Dawn dis soap, then hosed off and hung it on fence or spread on ground to dry) the haystring, rolled it in large bundles (while ponies eating and I waited to turn them loose) as shown in the book. Then commenced to braiding. Once I mastered the techniques, I made calls to find out measurements on custom harness for my size ponies (what I measured-where on my ponies and the lengths of straps between) then calculated and started braiding.

Here's what I came up with... I wasn't working full time, drove only 10 minutes to get thier and had TIME plus mastered braiding while watching tv at nite - the winter of 2009 and thru the summer of 2010, I did A LOT of braiding - completing a crupper I used on eng saddle for riding, 2 complete pleasure driving harness (not the saddle), lots of headstalls (I've lost count of how many I currently have - think a couple are missing, 2), balancing side reins for myself and a couple sets for others, lots of collars to tie ponies up at feeding time, 4 lounge lines that became two sets of driving lines (don't have any more - our 2013 babies thought they tasted good when I left them hanging up where I could use them but they also good "taste" them - they are now in bits holding the 27 feed buckets up at feed stations now). Are they perfect - NO. BUT they sure do WORK!

This pic shows the breast collar/neck strap, a set of reins (I was giving riding lessons at the time to 6 children - the reins/knots worked to show where their hands needed to be when doing turns, stops and reinbacks).






Here is the breeching. I didn't make it adjustable enough - had to go back and sew it up to make it shorter over the hips on both sides. Yes the buckles are different - if hardware isn't tarnished/falling apart when other equipment is, I keep it. These are re-purposed... The black straps are braiding rubber bands holding the ends down/still (hadn't mastered the braiding the loops to hold them down - still haven't to this day with haystring which is slippery in such a small configuration. Can w/ paracord). The strap going under her belly is actually a hold back strap for a single cart. I'm using it here to "mimic" a quarter strap like would be used on a work harness to see how she'll do with it and to take measurements. Found out later - didn't need it when using breast collar harness - you need other "brakes"...






Here is one of the 1st headstalls. Vicki had different hay supplier(s) and had different colored haystring that I was able to use for the browband and curb strap. I like curb straps on all my bridles - now make them with buckles so they can be removed. I loved the snap/ring at the throat latch area - but what a PIA! They are braided in and those little snaps BREAK easily. They are not replaceable w/o destroying the whole headstall










buckles on the curb strap, conway buckles on each side of the cheek strap. This is one that I made for Vicki's pony, Eclipse, who is modeling it here.






I just realized I have no pics of the headstalls now made w/ buckles at the bit like a "real" driving headstall. Hmmm... don't know where they are still packed yet.

I have not mastered making a "saddle" for pleasure driving. I've used just a surcingle (Weaver, felt lined - ordered for me by our feed store, $30. Now carried by several mini catalogs/stores in both mini and Shetland sizes. If girths are too small, a dressage girth will work). I did make a girth from braiding (that was WORK - but it turned out nice and still works while the surcingle girth wore out). I've got a harness shop now that makes affordable beta "saddles" that work well and were only $35 - new catalog is in my truck and I haven't looked up 2015 prices (basic harness went up - sure saddle did too)...

When I first posted these braided pics here - I got both sides of the idea. Either "that's awesome" or "OMG - that's terrible and unsafe". Got several PMs stating how wrong/bad/unsafe using my braided haystring harness was... For US - both Vicki and I, it worked. I'm still using my two braided haystring "harness's" today - 6 yrs later - for training our babies and getting them to hitching point! I don't care if the harness gets beat up (actually it's lasted longer than any other harness I've owned yet!) and can just be washed and hung up. When I showed up at my 1st driving lesson w/ draft horse instructor - he thought I was crazy and TRUST ME - he let me know... BUT at the time - I didn't know if I wanted to drive, didn't know if my ponies would do well driving and simply didn't have $1000 OR MORE to "throw away" if driving didn't work for us (I did have the goal of driving and also of purchasing both good quality pleasure harness AND work harness)... That same trainer laughs now and says how wonderful my harness has worked. The harness makers in OH have told me that if I will make it out of paracord - they'll sell it. I don't have time to do that right now AND really - it would be cost prohibitive to most if I charge for the actual time it takes to make. I haven't had time to rebraid collars that need replacing on individual ponies right now...

The FIRST "harness" made for my Shetlands in 1997 was made by a Saddlebred/Arab trainer. He told me to get him a pony sized girth. He did the rest - he used the pony girth to make the breast collar. Attached the crown of an old halter (he re-purposed, too!) as the neck strap, sanded down a section of the rings so that a flat type snap could be attached and made traces out of military nylon strapping. Saddlebreds/Arabs dont use breeching on their jog/show carts, so I didn't know about breeching until later when I purchased the book by Doris Ganton (Breaking and Training the Driving Horse)... I purchased a leather breeching that fits most of my ponies from A Silver Penny - (google her)... Will get pics later. Have to go.

Yea, I write books...


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## AngC (Apr 1, 2015)

ok I looked on the internet to see what the various harness parts are called. It appears that everyone calls them different names/terms.

The item that caught my eye in your photos was the strap with metal loops, which may or may not be called a bellyband, backband, girth... I found more; those seem to be some of the common terms. My pack saddle harness seems awfully similar to cart harnesses, with the exception that it has double cinches (one behind the forelegs and one a bit further back on her belly.) The only problem with it, is that there is nowhere to attach the two longlines as you recommended. We've been doing pretty good with the lunge lines and walking behind her, but they're hideously long and have really large/heavy swivel snaps. So the husband is going to cobble up two lines out of climbing rope. ...that way I can have them the length I want; the stuff is sturdy (afterall people dangle off cliffs on such lines.) I just have to figure out how I want him to make them to attach.


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## Debby - LB (Apr 1, 2015)

For a easy to follow, simple, no nonsense guide - meant to be used as a how-to manual I really enjoyed this book! "Step-By-Step Guide to Training a Miniature Horse to Drive" by Mindy Schroder (revised second edition)
The book is well written (even I could understand it) and includes numerous very good photo descriptions. I would recommend this to anyone, most especially a beginner.

Here is Mindy's Website: http://billyblaze.wix.com/drivingbook You can click the cover of the book shown for excerpts.


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## paintponylvr (Apr 2, 2015)

Thanx Debbie, you are the 2nd person to give me that. Before I didn't have the link to purchase it though...

AngC -

YES, different areas of the country OR different groups (draft, pleasure, CDE) have different terms - sometimes for the same harness parts but often the parts of each type of harness are different. That's why some of the books named are so awesome...






This is a work harness. The strap w/ rings under his belly 2 parts - 1st is a breast strap that hooks from collar & between his forelegs w/ the ring. 2nd - Snapped into that ring are the quarter straps (2) that are connected to the breeching rings on either side. This is the brake system for a pair harness. The neck yoke (attached at the front/bottom of the collar when hitched) is connected thru the "brakes" - and stops the wagon via tightening thru the breeching (the breeching ultimately stops the wagon/carriage). All the "belly parts" need to be attached in order to stop a wheeled vehicle w/ a pair. I had to have help (LOTS) to get that adjustment right on my pair w/ my new wagon - cuz all I was doing was ticking off and upsetting my ponies. One would "pass out" and lay down, then "explode" - or leap up... The whole arrangement was too tight - and it pulled her body all sorts of ways and cut off her air until someone pointed out what was wrong.

Yes, cinch and girth are somewhat interchangeable - but not always.

The training surcingle that I'm using in some of these pics DOES have rings - lots of them. For training. The mini/shet ones don't have as many as a full size one - but where they are make a difference as to where you run your lines. NO - a pack saddle wouldn't have those rings for driving lines - not meant to be used that way and rings would/could get in the way of "packing". An english saddle wouldn't either. But a western saddle has a couple of places that a snap and ring could be attached for driving lines OR you would run the lines thru the stirrups (which are "tied down")... The strap in front, behind the elbows is called a "girth" for just the part between the rings and the whole assembly can be referred to as a "cinch" or "cincha". the strap in back near the flanks is usually called a "rear cinch". I think it's the same terminology for packing as with western. The strap on an english saddle is called a "girth" (only) and has buckles under the saddle flaps, no "ties" or "latigo straps"...









MCR is AWESOME for use w/ horses. Schnieders Tack is the only horse catalog that I know that sells it as a made loungeline or lead rope already made up. Yes, most commercial loungelines made for full size horses, especially less expensive ones, will have larger snaps that don't work well w/ minis (heavy, bulky - some not well made and WILL BREAK). I used MCR equpipment for almost 12 years before washing, sweat and sunlight killed the rope. The snaps in each piece were replaced several times...






The reins on this bridle on the mare I'm riding are "home made" from MCR and in this pic are 11 yrs old... I STILL HAVE THEM.

Have to run. Work calls.


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## paintponylvr (Apr 2, 2015)

Here's a link to a work harness w/ parts list -

work Harness parts list

Here's good reading on harnessing a single horse -

Good site w/ understandable pics of harness - different types Justin Carriage Works

Here's a link to a post here from 2013 detailing some harness. The 2 pics of the Fjord horse in two types of harness are great!

Harness Labeled parts

**********

Here are two pics of training surcingles for minis.





**************

Sooooo - do these answer your questions better?


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## paintponylvr (Apr 3, 2015)

here is a pic with a training surcingle instead of "regular" harness... Yes, I'm using a braided headstall, long lines and breeching.









There's been some animated debate over the use of "shaft training" on this forum. Everyone uses, in the end, what works for them while training. I've done more of this work with a couple and almost none with others.

Here's some pics of our daughters riding using MCR reins that the girls and I made (i don't have a lot of pics...)...

Here's a pic of another pony with MCR reins - pic is big, so I didn't link it directly - Xena


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## AngC (Apr 3, 2015)

oh perfect!! I was searching on all kinds of terms. I've never heard of "surcingle." I've abandoned the idea of a cart for this year. Baby can spend the summer doing groundwork. I really don't want to rush things and risk hurting her or me.

The surcingle looks like it will be easy to find one that fits. I've checked out a few of these and am deciding which one to order.

I looked at Schneider's _Dura-Tech MCR_ lines. I think I'm going to pass on that. I tried researching what they're made of (material composition) and so far am drawing a blank. Additionally, they're the same l-o-n-g 30 ft. length that I currently have with my nylon/poly, flat long lines; plus it looks like they're rather thick in diameter. ....additionally, they have a snap/swivel which we've had one break on us.

I was thinking of a slimmer diameter on the (climbing) rope. In this application, I don't think I need the strength of a thicker diameter; even 3/8-inch of the right material is probably more sturdy than I need. Paired with a surcingle with all those loops/hoops, I was thinking I could have the husband make me a pair of "reins" to a comfortable length (vice 30 ft.) And I was thinking I could use carabiners to snap to the rings on the surcingle.

Regarding "shaft training"... As an outsider looking in: In addition to the belly-band with loops/hoops (surcingle), the next best thing I saw in your photos were the "shafts." ...looks like PVC pipe to me. I certainly wouldn't want to start any animated debate, but it looked like a pretty good idea to me. Plus it looked like something I could do. And I feel comfortable that Baby would be amenable to having a couple pipes dragging around; she's so sweet!!

Thank you.


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## paintponylvr (Apr 3, 2015)

AngC said:


> oh perfect!! I was searching on all kinds of terms. I've never heard of "surcingle." You will once you do get some of the books that have been mentioned. It is a training aid - so that you don't "injure" your "real" harness. I've abandoned the idea of a cart for this year.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## paintponylvr (Apr 3, 2015)

and here are other pics of the leather surcingle on a different pony doing some other training w/ objects... Simi is "trace clipped". And our middle daughter, Madira, working with "Simi" while she is free in the round pen to do what she wants. These older pics are all different sizes, sorry!!


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## paintponylvr (Apr 3, 2015)

Simi was sold with her full sister, Vixen, and they both have become awesome little hunter ponies instead of driving ponies. BUT the ground driving work they received set them up for riding really well!

Vixen






Simi




and Lacey was driven by her new owner with her full sister Jewel for years

and youtube just changed me to Google Chrome + and I can't figure out the layout for my picture gallery now! UGH - I hated it when Vicki purposely changed to that, but at least mine stayed as Picasa. Now it's not!! I will have to see if I can figure out how to access my pictures and albums now. A lot of my links may have just been dropped, not sure. I'm beginning to HATE google!!


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## paintponylvr (Apr 3, 2015)

well, I'm still working on my google stuff. Finally found these photos in another album on my laptop...

This is Jewel and Lacey. They are by my first shetland stallion & out of the hackney pony mare. Lacey, born in 99 & Jewel in 01. They were sold as a pair in 02. Their owner, Deb Branson, had them trained to drive and here are some of the pics she sent me. This harness is a pair harness (betathane) made by Country Carriages USA here in NC.


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## paintponylvr (Apr 3, 2015)

sorry 2000, not 2001. Star, the 1/2 arab pony, was born in 2001.


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## AngC (Apr 5, 2015)

paintponylvr said:


> MCR simply stands for Mountain Climbing Rope. I believe (but could be very WRONG) that most is made the same(?)... WHERE did you find it available measured in inches?


I've never heard of the MCR abbreviation. I'm familiar with such rope because my husband likes to dangle off cliffs and mountains. I don't know if it comes in inches or metric; I was just eyeballing it (and I think in inches.) The stuff he uses for climbing is different on mountains vice what he uses to dangle off a cliff. I couldn't tell you the differences, but just by looking/feeling, it's all quite different. I've been admiring it for a while, thinking I could perhaps make a much nicer, more comfortable halter. The climbing on mountains stuff is too large a diameter. The smaller "dangle off a cliff" stuff is smaller diameter, yet soft, and appears sturdy.

I'm still giggling after viewing the photo with you between the shafts with the horse in the background. Sorry, but.... shouldn't the horse be doing that? It looks like something we'd be doing; i.e., the horse standing there looking at us doing horse stuff. Anyway....


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## paintponylvr (Apr 6, 2015)

MCR has changed a lot since I purchased the rope that I got. Part of the reason I haven't ordered any online yet. I still have a few pieces of at least 2 of the 3 original colors I had purchased.

Umm... that's known as one of the stages of introducing the cart to the driving horse - and you will see it in several different books as well as in some of the driving videos. Guess Vicki and I have taken pics of many of the training stages we went thru - documenting where we were and what we were doing at each stage. Some of the photos are really cool, some - not so much. On occasion, we caught some pretty ...aahhh "active" shots where ponies were not happy or settled when introduced to something new.

We were a little surprised at this young mare's reaction. She was "driven" beside her mom as a suckling, weanling and yearling. Yet as a 2 yr old, she was kinda goofy and spooky! Right now, as a 4.5 yr old, she's going thru another "goofy" stage. She'd rather not eat than be caught since we moved onto the new property. Since she will attack the other girls (some of whom are babies), the gate is closed while they eat and she is locked out. In a few more days she will likely decide she is hungry enough that she'll be waiting at her bucket when I go out to feed... I'll be able to walk right up to her and catch her for feeding. Silly Mare.

Here is a pic of GG as a foal. The green lines are made from one of the colors of MCR I had gotten in 2000/01.












and then after she got over the goofiness and is driving as a pair with her dam officially -






and here she is "working" last fall as a 4 yr old.






I don't have any pics of her driving single. She's been hitched single about a dozen times and did pretty well - just went on to hook her as a pair after that...


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## paintponylvr (Apr 6, 2015)

she's done some ground driving work (think 5x?) as a 4 abreast hitch, too. I sold the bay/white mare and haven't done the 4 abreast yet, even though I have 2 pairs that can/will do that. Just haven't had the chance, time or help (don't want to do a 4 abreast by myself).











I built a larger round pen here (not finished yet) and will be practicing w/ a 3 and 4 abreast hitch this summer. Also plan on doing a 4-up (2 pairs in front of each other )... I was aspiring to do a 6-up like Bsharp is doing some day, but may not make it to that. If I don't, that's ok. I've accomplished a lot and we enjoy what we do. I really like driving pairs!!

More important to me than a 4-up (or 6 or 8) is to get the mower customized so that I can use a pair or 3-abreast to mow this fall. We'll see how far we get. It's taken longer to get to this point than I'd thought it would...


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## paintponylvr (Apr 10, 2015)

Here's a blog that gives some nice explanations and has pictures as well.

Harnessing Horsepower

and another one - think I originally had/have this one in a horse magazine, but can't remember which one.

Put the horse before the cart

Here's a video... with a shaft trainer similar to mine but then dragging on the ground..

Training to drive

and this shows another photo similar to the above video (different trainer/different farm)

Tolt Farm

I found these by using Google Images.

I used these search terms -

Ground training the driving horse

Starting the driving horse

ground work before hitching


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## paintponylvr (Apr 11, 2015)

then I went back to YouTube.

I've always LOVED watching the vids from IAMRANCH. They breed/raise and train champion mini horses in multiple types of driving. They have the smaller minis and do training outside and "cross country" with various styles of equipment (their "surfing" vids are hilarious to watch. Me - I'd hurt my horses' mouths attempting that. BUT we've done similar w/ a line attached to the front of a drag to hold on to to keep from hanging on the horses' mouths...).

The other would be to surf thru Barry Hook's vids - they have lots including ground driving different types of horses, what they do to accustom to harness and going out in the country and on the roads. He trains in England (can't remember where right now) - so some stuff is different then we typically do here. Harness and vehicles are a little different (like Marathon types here). He also shows some collar work - not just breast collar.

Here's some more -

This person is working with mini horse by themself and using an Cabella Jet Sled. Also shows a hyperbike from the drivers seat... Beginning ground work

These are riding horses being trained & the terms used are riding terms, not driving - from Double Lunge to Long Reining

This mini is pulling a shaft trainer w/o a breast collar and traces (just attached to his harness saddle) - Bishop

moving downed limbs & water work, too. Horsepower, moving downed limbs

************

There are many sources besides just books to go to for reference. When I did some searching right here in Lil Beginnings - I found harness, ground driving and hitching posts going back to 2008.


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## paintponylvr (Apr 11, 2015)

This one is cool. The "shaft" is on a line. I suppose the "driver" could release the cord and drop the "shaft" if necessary... Dinero dragging pole

Might be good to go back and watch the whole series here - but I really enjoyed these 2 - here they are introducing the shafts/travois - looks like it's built from dimensions given in Doris Ganton's book - Training the Driving Horse. Cap 4

Here's the trainer being the horse while ground driving - pretty much the same as Vicki and I have done. Doesn't drop the shafts tho... Cap 5

And here is a Webinar - long but shows different types of harness and what the uses are for. Harness & Bits From here you can follow many of their other video/webinars.


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