# At what age do you start lining?



## Mominis (Feb 14, 2010)

I am curious as to what age you start your young horses in the long lines. I was planning to start lining our 2 year old in the summer and hooking him in the fall. Is that too early?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 14, 2010)

Generally speaking I'd say 2 years is a good age to start long-lining and ground-driving but it depends on the horse; some are ready for a job as yearlings, others are too mentally immature as 4 year olds.

If the horse is ready I still don't want to lunge a 2 year old much so it would have to be mostly straight-line work and I'd probably only worry about getting as far as teaching him to walk ahead of me, stand quietly, carry the bit without fussing and make basic turns and transitions. If the horse is mentally ready for more, great, but I prefer to hitch no sooner than 3 so most of what I'll do the 2 year old year is exposure to new things and layering basics until they're solid. I'll ground-drive that horse down the road, past dogs, over tarps, through crowds, in an arena, over hollow-sounding boards, under streamers, anything I can think of to teach him to learn. Lots of positive reinforcement and gentle shaping, nothing stressful or advanced. As an early 3 year old I'll introduce the cart and the concept of pulling and let him spend the spring and early summer learning the basics of that and how to carry himself with the cart attached. By the 4 year old year I figure they're ready to go and will start serious work on dressage and conditioning and generally treating them like an adult.

I will show a 3 year old if he's happy in his work but I'm not going to ask a lot of him in the ring except staying calm and making an effort. If he improves a little with each class I'm happy. Then again, I have my horses for life so I take the long view!






Leia


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## disneyhorse (Feb 14, 2010)

I start long lining my two year olds in the FALL/WINTER and then the SPRING of their three year old year I start to hook.

My colt is three this year, we are planning on hooking him for the first time this week. I would have liked to do it a month ago, but just haven't. No need to rush at all, I like to give my horses as good a foundation as I can.

Andrea


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## Marsha Cassada (Feb 14, 2010)

I started Dusty in the fall with long lines. I've put him in the sulky a few times now, so he can learn about shafts and that his hind end is connected to his front end. He will be 3 this spring so we will start working a little harder. His mind has come a long way in the last few months.

He took to long lines amazingly well, so we progressed to shafts more quickly than other horses I've had.


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## ~Amanda~ (Feb 15, 2010)

How do you tell if a horse is ready for training like that? I know all horses should have basic ground manners, but what are some signs that a horse is ready for something more advanced, like ground driving?


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## Marsha Cassada (Feb 15, 2010)

By "long lines", I meant ground driving. I think it is important to "speak the same language" if we want to share knowledge. Perhaps a topic with definitions could be pinned on this Forum so users could have a more precise idea of terms. I am frequesntly confused by words used in driving!


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## RhineStone (Feb 15, 2010)

Generally, I think of ground driving being behind the horse without the cart. Long lining is like longeing with reins in a circle. Technically, both are considered long lining and a good driver should be able to move between the two techniques seamlessly.

While I have found that it is helpful to have a goal to keep your training schedule on track, I have also found that the older the horses are, the longer you will have them in service. If you want to drive them at 18 years, don't put them to the cart at 18 mo. (et al, slightly tongue in cheek...)

It is hard to describe when a horse is ready for the next step, but when it seems like they have "mastered" walk, trot, whoa, and stand in hand and don't question or argue with you about it, then I think you can move to the next step. I find that it can be helpful to make steps in between leading in hand and ground driving. This is where longing comes in, and like Leia said, you don't want that horse so young that you are stressing his joints in a small circle. You are moving farther away from your horse, and he has to "be in the lead". Then adding the outside rein, even to the halter, you can begin to move closer to their rear ends, like a ground driving position, still using the same voice commands that you did when you were leading in hand.

Consistancy in voice commands is HUGE. We use:

Walk = walk

Walk up = walk faster with more energy and engagement

Trot = Working Trot

Jog = Slow Trot

Trot Up = Strong Trot

"Kiss" sound = canter (only with more finished horses)

Hep = half halt, pay attention, or "knock it off!"

Ho = stop forward movement

Stand = don't move a muscle (and I am not kidding)

Back = back up

Step = move a couple of steps forward (helpful for returning to line up and not necessarily continuing to walk)

Come = go right

Get = go left

Come Hard = go hard right (with more finished horses)

Get Hard = go hard left (with more finished horses)

(Come or Get) Over = step to the right or left

Through there = "pay attention, that is the set of cones or obstacles that I want you to go through"

Foot = pick your foot up so I can clean it (when I am on the ground only)

With "up" transitions, the voice is more "cheerful", with down transitions, the voice is more low and drawn out. Our horses learn all these commands in the stall, in the aisle, on the lead, on the longe line, and in the cart. They know exactly what we want. We don't do a whole lot of other chatter except for "Good boy/girl" or maybe "You can do it!" when they need reinforcement.

With some minis, it seems you can ground drive them in a halter as a yearling, but some just don't get that they have to be "the leader". Again, don't attempt ground driving without a good foundation in whoa and stand. I can't stress this enough. You will have enough to be concerned about when ground driving (i.e. not stepping on the bight of the lines, getting the horse to stay in front of you, etc.) that you don't want to have to teach them what whoa and stand mean when they are not at your side and are 10-15 ft. out. They will potentially drag you around the arena at best, or get away from you or worse.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 15, 2010)

~Amanda~ said:


> How do you tell if a horse is ready for training like that? I know all horses should have basic ground manners, but what are some signs that a horse is ready for something more advanced, like ground driving?


Now THAT is a very good question, and one with a complicated answer!



As I am not a professional trainer and can afford to take my time I let the horse tell me. With an adult horse I'll introduce the basic voice commands in all our in-hand work and then teach them to lunge using those same voice commands. When they are solid and calm on those and used to wearing a surcingle it's fairly easy to have a helper lead the horse forward while I walk behind them and get them used to ground-driving. After that it's just a matter of steps.

For a young horse though it's a question of if they have the attention span and are, for lack of a better descriptive term, "ready" for a Big Boy Job. I've only had two yearlings in my care and the first one, Pyro, was so desperately ready for a job it was pathetic. He was B-O-R-E-D and would have _loved_ to ground-drive in a halter but he wasn't consistent enough about leading for me to try it so instead we started obstacle work and clicker training to keep him busy. The other one, Turbo, is a quick learner and loves to try new things but is still very innocent and babyish in his mentality and flip-flops completely from one day to the next in what he's ready for. He learned to free-lunge in a day and I was able to throw a Halloween costume on him (including a surcingle) without any fuss at all but some days he kicks constantly at the least little touch anywhere and can't seem to help doing silly compulsive baby things. I follow his lead and let him tell me what he's comfortable trying. Yesterday for instance he took off trotting just ahead of me and stayed there like he was in harness so I said "Trot on" and followed him, flicking the lunge whip gently, praising him when he sped up on command and stayed ahead of me. When it was my idea at the walk the week before he planted his feet and refused to move, totally confused.



I have no doubt I could get him through harness training this year as a two year old but frankly I think it would be stressful for both of us and a lot more work than if I simply let him mature a bit and then did the same things in a much shorter period of time. Meanwhile we'll continue to play educational and confidence-building games, work on our voice commands, obstacle work, halter training and acceptance of touch, and by the time he's more mature he'll have a solid foundation to go forward.



RhineStone said:


> Generally, I think of ground driving being behind the horse without the cart. Long lining is like longeing with reins in a circle. Technically, both are considered long lining and a good driver should be able to move between the two techniques seamlessly.


Ground-driving is definitely staying right behind the horse like you were in a cart (usually with regular driving lines) but I think of lunging on a circle with two reins (the outside one around the butt) as "double-lunging." Long-lining implies a lot more movement from the horse as you may be going down the arena sides, doing figure eights, spiralling, collecting, extending, all those wonderful things, and the reins may be down the horse's sides or in the higher terrets over the back.



If you want to get formal about it the in-hand dressage books refer to "work in-hand," "work on the short reins" and "work on the long reins."





My versions below:



RhineStone said:


> Consistency in voice commands is HUGE. We use:Walk on = walk
> 
> Walk on, repeated = walk faster with more energy and engagement
> 
> ...


Yep!


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## RhineStone (Feb 15, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> RhineStone said:
> 
> 
> > Generally, I think of ground driving being behind the horse without the cart. Long lining is like longeing with reins in a circle. Technically, both are considered long lining and a good driver should be able to move between the two techniques seamlessly.
> ...


I would agree about long lining including all of those movements. (I LOVE long lining down the rail of the arena to get the horse to lengthen stride! It's so much fun to watch, esp. when you can't see them do it from the cart!) I don't think of connections to the bit as "longing" though. Longing in my mind is strictly line to halter or longing caveson. But it's really just nomenclature and to each it's own. I have driving books from well-respected authors that contradict each other on the terms.





I have a friend who "runs" Friesians. They show those horses in hand but with a surcingle and a bridle on long lines. He runs daily to keep in shape to show these horses at Keurings, and apparently he is one of six people in the nation for hire to do this. Those horses trot big and he is books it to keep up.



I know I can't run that fast for that long! His wife has photos of when he was "running" in a muddy arena, and slipped. The photos are consecutive, so you see him upright, then not so upright, then definitely falling, and then down in the mud!

Myrna


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## Mominis (Feb 15, 2010)

In the past, I will get a horse (speaking of a trotty horse with potential for pleasure driving or park harness) in a long and low frame to get the basic guiding, an absolute whoa, back, and two degrees of trot on them prior to hooking them. I feel that the long, low frame gets them using their back as I feel that a hollow back is one of the greatest faults in the trotting horses. Once I get them into a position of calm acceptence of the lines and the cart, then I can frame them up. I think it is a bit much to ask any horse to frame up before he is accepting of the above things. Once we are there, we start framing up and doing it while pulling a tire. Once he is used to framing up with the pressure of the tire behind, then they can do it with an empty cart, and finally while hooked with a warm body in the cart.

What I am proposing with my two year old is to get bit acceptence, guideability, whoa by line queues, backing (which I first do with a header and in a longing cavesson so as to not send confusing messages through the bit), pulling the tire, and learing how to wear his blinders. I just wanted to clarify what I'm asking about so you knew I wasn't going to just start hooking him and asking him to stand up and trot straight out of the chute. I hope to get these things done with him in the fall. The time that we spend working until fall will be a LOT of sacking out, learning to hear the odd noises that are similar to a cart, carrying a bit, and so forth. In the larger horses, I would start these things at late 2/early 3. So, provided he is mentally capable of dealing with these things, how do you feel about starting that with a two year old? Sorry I wasn't more clear in my original post.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 15, 2010)

Mominis said:


> In the larger horses, I would start these things at late 2/early 3. So, provided he is mentally capable of dealing with these things, how do you feel about starting that with a two year old? Sorry I wasn't more clear in my original post.


My concern with the minis has always been that when hitched they are hauling so much more weight (proportionately) than a full-sized two or three year old is asked to. Since you are not hitching your horse at this point I'd say he could do exactly as much or as little as a full-sized horse of the same maturity.





Leia


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## disneyhorse (Feb 15, 2010)

Mominis said:


> In the past, I will get a horse (speaking of a trotty horse with potential for pleasure driving or park harness) in a long and low frame to get the basic guiding, an absolute whoa, back, and two degrees of trot on them prior to hooking them. I feel that the long, low frame gets them using their back as I feel that a hollow back is one of the greatest faults in the trotting horses. Once I get them into a position of calm acceptence of the lines and the cart, then I can frame them up. I think it is a bit much to ask any horse to frame up before he is accepting of the above things. Once we are there, we start framing up and doing it while pulling a tire. Once he is used to framing up with the pressure of the tire behind, then they can do it with an empty cart, and finally while hooked with a warm body in the cart.
> What I am proposing with my two year old is to get bit acceptence, guideability, whoa by line queues, backing (which I first do with a header and in a longing cavesson so as to not send confusing messages through the bit), pulling the tire, and learing how to wear his blinders. I just wanted to clarify what I'm asking about so you knew I wasn't going to just start hooking him and asking him to stand up and trot straight out of the chute. I hope to get these things done with him in the fall. The time that we spend working until fall will be a LOT of sacking out, learning to hear the odd noises that are similar to a cart, carrying a bit, and so forth. In the larger horses, I would start these things at late 2/early 3. So, provided he is mentally capable of dealing with these things, how do you feel about starting that with a two year old? Sorry I wasn't more clear in my original post.


You somewhat contradict here... I would say for Pleasure horses a more rounded back is desirable, but for your Park horses a low/hollow back is more desirable. Pleasure horses should be moving in frame, just like the Country or Western horses, but with more action and a more extreme headset. A hollow back will help improve that higher headset though...

Your Park horses will benefit from a hollow back, to exaggerate the front end knee action as well as encourage the extreme headset. It really is kind of a different training. They will need to transition their weight to the rear end to lift the front... but it is done differently than rounding the horse. It will be driving the horse forward and asking them to lift the hind end. You just get a different result.

The hollow back is not "a great fault" it is actually trained and desired! In many breeds such as Hackneys and Saddlebreds, they will actually wrap a length of chain around the top of the surcingle backpad to encourage the horse to drop its back while working. Dumb jockeys, if you have ever seen them, put a lot of weight and pressure on the top of the backpad, which encourages the horse to drop its back (as well as offering some rings to check the horse to to encourage a high headset, too.)

So, this is actually desired and trained for, not something that is a fault of the horse or the training. It's just a whole different ballgame than other disciplines or divisions.

My colt (pictured left) has a very short back. This will really hinder his ability to drop his back lower, and therefore he conformationally would have a very hard time being a Park (Fine Harness) horse. Lots of your Park horses will have a longer back, which allows for flexibility in the spine to drop down. This is what I've noticed at least. Saddlebreds often have very long flexible backs.

Park horses are usually worked checked up in a frame, and rarely are worked "long and low" as this works against the final frame the horse is achieving.

Just my perspective.

Andrea


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## Mominis (Feb 16, 2010)

Andrea, this may just be a semantics issue. When I said hollowing out in the back, what I probably should have said is that when the horse is hollowed out and trailing his hocks it is undesireable to me. While the back is certainly not rounded as a dressage person would consider a rounded back, the horse cannot be so stiff in the body that he trails behind. Man, sometimes descriptions are hard to get across on the internet. Thanks for your perspective though.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 16, 2010)

disneyhorse said:


> The hollow back is not "a great fault" it is actually trained and desired! In many breeds such as Hackneys and Saddlebreds, *they will actually wrap a length of chain around the top of the surcingle backpad to encourage the horse to drop its back while working*. Dumb jockeys, if you have ever seen them, put a lot of weight and pressure on the top of the backpad, which encourages the horse to drop its back (as well as offering some rings to check the horse to to encourage a high headset, too.) So, this is actually desired and trained for, not something that is a fault of the horse or the training. It's just a whole different ballgame than other disciplines or divisions.

















I acknowledge that it's a different ballgame, but it is one I will never understand. To each their own, I guess...I don't get the attraction of the modern Western Pleasure ring either. Or Rollkur.





Leia


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## RhineStone (Feb 17, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I acknowledge that it's a different ballgame, but it is one I will never understand. To each their own, I guess...I don't get the attraction of the modern Western Pleasure ring either. Or Rollkur.


This is actually one of the reasons that we are so drawn to carriage driving. For being one of the most "foreign" ways to "use" a horse (by pulling a vehicle), it is actually one of the most "natural". You don't contort your horse into an unnatural position for him, you use his body type to his best advantage. There are so many breeds that carriage drive, that judges realize that a Fjord is not going to look like a Haflinger who is not going to look like a Morgan! They pick the best horse doing the best job for that horse. That is not saying that judges don't have preferences to pick horses that go more round than flat, etc., but there is not a "desired frame" that every horse is forced into. However, your horse has to be a good moving horse, he can't be peg-legged and expect to do well...

Maybe this belongs on it's own thread...back to the line driving topic...how did we get so far off?





Myrna


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## Mominis (Feb 17, 2010)

I'm not at all offended by the direction the thread has taken. No worries, RhineStone. It's great to hear the different ways that you enjoy your horses.

I have big dreams for our little guy and I know that actual line work is several months in the future. We have so much to do before he's ready for that, the first step being getting him home from Ohio. lol


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