# Found Lost dog



## JaniceZ (Oct 18, 2013)

Hello!

So a dog followed me and my dog (Pippin) home from the park Thursday morning. I am trying to find its owner. I have called the humane society to see if anyone is looking, brought him to my vet to get checked out and micro chipped, he didn't have one. And I have posted a lost and found add on Kijiji. I have also asked around the neighborhood, no one seems to have seen him before. Tomorrow I am going to put up some fliers with my phone number.

Everyone I have talked to tells me chances are I am not going to find the owner. Dog is an intact male, seems young, and was not microchipped. That included with the neighborhood I found him in, (not great) I have been told someone probably got tired of him and just let him go.

Also, my friend moved in with my husband and I. Her fiance (sp?) and her have been looking into getting a dog after she finishes school (end of December). She has expressed interest in taking Dog if the dog and her fiance get along. I know they would provide him with a good home.

So how long do I need to hold him for the owner? We would rather not send him to the humane society, as the local one has a high kill rate. Even if my friend cant take him, we would end up keeping him before we sent him to the humane society. If my friend does take him, she wants him to stay at our place until she moves out at the end of December. I am worried that Pippin (my dog) will become attached, and it would be cruel to keep Dog for too long and then have him leave. Is that something I should be worried about?

Any advice would be appreciated!


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## misty'smom (Oct 18, 2013)

My son found a dog running on a back country road. He put him in his car and went to the few houses on that road and asked if anyone knew the dog, no luck. So he brought him home, he was only about 3-4 months old still had his baby teeth, poor little guy!! Well not so little, he looked to be a Lab mix with really big paws. We called all vets in area and gave description etc, none of them recalled seeing a pup like that recently. Had him scanned no microchip. We placed him on PetFind and Fiddo Find on the internet no luck. As the days went on our chances of finding his owner grew slim. The strange thing was I was seeing pictures of pups that looked similar on the local shelter's weekly posting in the local newspaper, maybe litter mates so sad...........So, after about 2 weeks we started to decide what to do with this sweet pup we called Marley(he truly was a Marley type doggie). My daughter and her fiancé had been considering getting a Lab so end of story!! Happy ending too, that was 4 years ago!!!! Marley is living in Germany with my daughter her husband and their 1 year old daughter who loves Marley and he loves her!!

I think 2 weeks is a good amount of time considering you are actively searching for his owners. If you or your friend can give this dog a forever home I think that is wonderful!!!! Good luck and I am praying that this dog has followed you home because you will help him find that home!!


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 18, 2013)

I look for 10 days and then either find a new home, decent rescue or they end up living with me. 10 days is what our local SPCAs typically give before rehoming found dogs. There are decent organizations out there that can help get reasonable priced neutering for your rescued dog. What breed? Just curious.

If you keep the dog and spend money on neutering and shots and heartworm etc.. I would add a microchip during neutering procedure. Nice to have the dog identified as yours and not risk the owner showing up after you have spent money on the dog and trying to claim the dog back.

That all said... If the dog is well cared for, decent weight and looks to have had a loving home, then you should post at the local shelters a "found" notice. there very well could be a desperate owner that has lost their dog or if un-neutered male, might have gone "wandering" to find his next "girlfriend". You may also be able to post on petfinder and facebook too. Many dogs are not microchipped until neutered and if lost without a collar, finders might assume the dog is abandoned when he really does have a home.

For a dog I found not long ago, collar grown into his neck and not healthy, no microchip and not neutered, I felt safe to assume that he did not have a loving home and I found him a caring foster. I did watch papers for lost dog out of curiosity but giving the condition of the dog I was really glad I didn't find his previous owners. Best wishes. Glad you didn't just ignore him and are helping him find his way.


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## madmax (Oct 19, 2013)

Perhaps 2 weeks is not long enough. My daughter reconnected a dog with its owner after 3 months.

The story: she picked up a black lab on the interstate, no collar, and took him home. Did all the usual stuff to find and advertise; this was on a college campus and lots of places to post as well. Got a call after 3 months from a girl; came to see him and felt on his neck, looking for a knot where a beebee gun had shot him previously; bingo, her boyfriends dog who had left him with a friend while he was moving, well you know the friend was not a good dog keeper. My daughters dog did not seem to mind when this dog left, she was used to my daughter having dogs coming and going I guess, we both seemed to be always rescuing animals.

I must say that the owner was so thrilled to find his dog, they were very close and a beautiful reunion

You know, black lab is so common, this girl just called on a whim .My daughter found this dog miles from where he was staying.


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## JaniceZ (Oct 20, 2013)

Thanks everyone. I have asked around at local vets, and left a description at the humane society, the only dog shelter I know of locally. I think hubby and I will have to keep him for a while longer, as we do believe he came from somewhere where he was at least fed. He does seem to have abandonment issues, as any time someone leaves the house without him he crys and crys like he thinks were never coming back. Last night my hubby and I went to dinner with the inlaws and left both dogs at home with my friend. Found dog paced the back yard for an hour, and when friend brought him inside he cried himself to sleep. So I think his owner must have gone somewhere and dog got out trying to look for his owners?

I am going to post some pictures around town today. finally have some decent weather




.

Not sure of his breeding, we are thinking chow chow cross, possibly with a Rottweiler or pit bull? but we are not breed experts by any means.









Also, so far I have not heard anything. My kijiji ad has 40 views on it, but no emails.


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## chandab (Oct 20, 2013)

He looks like he could be an older dog. I'm no breed expert, but to me he looks like he could be a Chow/Lab X. What color is his tongue? Chows have purplish colored tongues, its a breed trait.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 20, 2013)

I was going to guess the same as Chantab and also ask color of tongue. That muzzle looks chow body type looks lab, any webbing on feet? Does he have extensive tartar on his teeth? If clean, he is probably younger, if tartar is advanced I would guess older.

For leaving him alone, stuff him a bone with peanutbutter or something yummy when you leave so he associates you leaving with something good.

bestwishes, nice of you to help him along to find his way.


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## JaniceZ (Oct 20, 2013)

Thanks everyone, his tongue is covered in blue splotches. I checked his feet, they have to same amount of webbing as my Australian shepherd. The reason we guessed rottweiler is because his neck is as thick as his head. His teeth are very white, with no tarter buildup at all, but he does have all of his teeth (or the same amount as my 1 year 4 month old). If his owners brushed his teeth would that throw off the age?

Another question. He sniffs and pees on everything when we go for walks. EVERYTHING. If we were to keep him (assuming no owner shows up) would neutering help with this? or is this a learned behavior that training will correct?

Thanks for every ones help.


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## misty'smom (Oct 20, 2013)

Oh he is a cutie!! Love his soulful eyes!!!! My guess would be Chow/Lab too. Poor guy, he must have been left behind and missed his family, thus the abandonment issue





As for the sniff/pee issue I don't think neutering will help that habit. If he is only doing this outside on walks he may stop after he has been walked in the same areas, he will get used to those places and his scent will already be there.

What are you calling him? I know how they say once you give him a name he is "home" but I think he already had his new home picked out!! After all that is why he followed you and Pippin home!!!!!!!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 21, 2013)

I can't really add anything that hasn't been said. I also think he is a chowxlab, agree he will probably _not_ stop marking when he goes for walks just because he is neutered (which would still be a good thing to do for a whole list of other reasons)but you can teach him that he must not stop unless you allow it. he should learn to walk with you. You are talking him for a walk not the other way around. He should have plenty of time to relieve himself but marking is not a requirement and it says he is in charge of you not the other way around. He is a lovely looking guy and I salute you for helping him. Also I agree with misty'smom, he needs a name  he thinks he is home already (plus even if his original owners do show up you need something to call him until them)


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## Performancemini (Oct 21, 2013)

I agree that the sniffing and "marking" probably won't stop after neutering. The sniffing is the way that dog's with their very sensitive sense of smells "read" the "mail"-and how exciting that is outdoors! The "marking" is their way of announcing who they are and what they are about and that they were there. (ME!!!). It's inside you won't want it of course. (He doesn't, does he?).


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 21, 2013)

Sorry, I disagree about the sniffing and marking staying that bad if he is neutered... Male doggies will sniff and lift their legs on walks, but neutering will greatly reduce the marking behavior and if the dog is young enough when neutering especially. Un neutered males have the ability to spread it around much better than neutered males, they have excellent sphincter (I can't spell that sorry) .. control and they can shut off and start again and still leave a little squirt for your porch at home, this is the main reason I do not enjoy living with an intact male because I want my dog to completely eliminate and not stop and lift his leg on every bush in town. My neutered males mostly pee almost all their pee when they go outside in one place. Then on a walk they might sniff and pee some, but it is HUGELY reduced for most of my dogs once they are neutered. I teach all my dogs the "no sniff" command when I don't want them to pee on something and use a "Hurry up" command when I want them to pee in a specific spot. Dogs can be taught when and where it is ok to pee. I use a different leash for my dogs for shows and for walking in public no pee areas, and when I change to my long lead they know it is ok to sniff and pee. Even male dogs that I have gotten as adults (my 7 year old bassett for example) that have pee'd and sniffed and scratched and lifted legs on everything, were no problem once they were neutered. It is like night and day difference.

If his teeth are bright white, he is either young or he has just had a professional dental done on his teeth in my opinion. Regardless of brushing, tartar can build up and my dogs even when brushed daily, can build enough tartar in a year or two to need a professional cleaning, so my guess is that he is probably young if his teeth are bright white. Check his molars on the top in the back too, canines can be bright white if the dogs enjoys bones, but if the top molars in the back are bright white too, I would guess he is young.

The spots on his tongue probably another good indicator of the chow in his background.

Best wishes. PS, I have found the sniff and pee lift leg on anything urge goes down greatly about 3 months following neutering.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 21, 2013)

ps, he might even have some northern breed something in his background, his tail has some curl and lift and he has that white point goggles over his eyes like some northern breeds do.

he looks like a "marley" or a "Duke" lets play.. name that dog

Actually, he will tell you his name, start asking him what he wants to be called.


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## JaniceZ (Oct 21, 2013)

Thanks again for all the replies. He is well house trained, no lifting his leg on anything inside thankfully.

As far as a name, my husband is calling him Gronk, short for Gronkowski, a football player on the Patriots. I went with it thinking he wouldn't be sticking around long.... lol. We have tried calling him all sorts of names, seeing what he would come too, but he doesn't really respond to anything at all. Hubby thinks he might have been trained in another language, since he doesn't respond to the word sit, but if you point at the ground he sits right away. I thought he might be deaf, but I clapped behind his head when he was sleeping and he turned and looked right at me. We haven't done any name recognition training since we are not sure he will be staying here (anyone want a dog? ), and I wouldn't blame someone if they didn't want to call him Gronk LOL.

His back molars are not so shiny white. I also looked at a website that aged based on how ridged the bottom incisors are. Based on that site and comparing with my dog, I think he is between 2-4, but again, I am no expert.

More of his personality is shining through as he becomes more comfortable with us. He love attention, and is not above a little begging to get some pats. His anxiety is getting better, I can now leave him downstairs (with my dog), without him howling, as long as I am back downstairs within two minutes. If I take longer than that he has figured out how to knock over the dog gate and comes running upstairs. His recall off leash needs work, but again its like he doesn't even hear you when you call. He also needs some on leash manners. There are a few people in the neighborhood he doesn't like much, he barks and growls at them if we stop walking to close to them. These people say they have never seen him before. I think he might be leash aggressive since he has been sweet to everyone who has come to our house since he has been there.


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## Performancemini (Oct 21, 2013)

Shorthorsemom: My response about the sniffing and "marking" or peeing was in regards to outside and I meant it the way you did. That the dog does not actually pee but has the small amount left over, as you stated. And, yes, I too have worked with my guy so that he knows the "no sniff" and such commands for on his walks; but I do like to let him do some sniffing to read the "mail" and such at times. (and I use the doggy bags in case of accidents too).


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 22, 2013)

No problem, I knew what you were saying performancemini and I wasnt trying to say you were wrong (sorry if it came out that way), I was clarifying a question I thought i read on her earlier post about the marking and peeing and was imagining how often an intact male could be squirting on a walk and thinking she was wondering if that was just him or if it would get less if she neutered him.

I had a recent rescue and my kids were amazed at how often he peed. My son says "hey, you didn't walk that dog, he peed like 20 times mom!" had to explain intact vs non intact male and ability to spread it around to my kids. I have neutered older dogs and have been very happy when the urge to do the 3 drop squirt on everything that is upright gets much less after neutering,

I use a longer leash and tell my dogs they can walk ahead and that is the ok for them to sniff and pee and poop and whatever. Great that he doesn't go in the house for her. Lots of intact males (and some neutered) lift leg in the house and that can be such a problem to break that habit in a dog. My mothers neutered male bishon hits my refrigerator every time he comes into my house. Drives me nuts.

For dental, all dogs are different, but it sounds like you are in the ball park on age. If he was as old as his grey muzzle suggested and had not had regular dentals, he would probably have gingivitis and maybe even some loose teeth, so I agree, he is probably somewhat younger rather than older even though he has a grey muzzle. 2-4 would be a good guess it sounds.

On the leash behavior and not being comfortable around folks on a leash, can be common on a dog that was tied and left alone outside and everything was just out of reach, Could also explain why he doesnt know basic obedience like the word sit. Some folks get a dog, tie it outside and don't give it socialization and think the dog will thrive and be a good watch dog, when in reality it creates a dog that is insecure, low on pack socialization and can be barky and lungey when on a lead.

Teach him all commands using food. Sit, give a treat, down give a treat. Say the word, help him have a success doing the command and food reward him for the correct response. put him on a leash inside the house. When he is near you or looking at you, tell him he is good and food reward. When he learns he gets food for looking at you and he is comfortable on leash in the house, try the same outside and reward him whenever you stop him on leash near somebody but BEFORE he does the bark or lunge.

Teach him that stopping next to somebody and looking at you for guidence will get him a treat. Pretty soon he will see a stranger and look at you, reward should be huge. If he barks or growls, do not correct the bark or growl, but rather change direction and walk away quickly and reward him when he stops being nervous and looks at you. I bet he is SUPER smart and he will train quickly.

Decide your name for him and use it even if he won't be staying forever. So often folks use a dogs name for a correction so he might be afraid to respond to the name calling idea, he may tell you later. My bassett didn't respond to any name. We called him Fred. Later he told me he liked the name scooby and he comes running when I call him scooby and ignores Fred now. LOL. Teach him his name is the best thing he ever heard by saying his name, and when he looks at you ( you might have to help him understand by turning his head gently) then food reward him. I have seen dogs shut down when they hear their name because an owner has for example come home to trash overturned and yelled the dogs name in anger, or if he was barking outside and instead of quiet the owner yells his name. Owner thinks he is correcting the dog, dog thinks his name means something bad.

Best wishes.
Sometimes those gift dogs turn out to be the best dogs ever.

take care!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 22, 2013)

Great post shorthorsemom.



Regarding the sniff and pee discussion. My response was to whether it would stop when he was neutered and I took it to mean will it stop completely. To that I still say the answer is no, not with out training that gets the dog focused on the handler more than the rest of the world, but I agree with you it will ease up. I absolutely agree with you about the intact males always having a squirt or two in reserve. I have a friend who owns a male Boston and she often asks me to take him when she travels. Last time he was here he decided to mark my couch.



I have to treat him like a new puppy all the time, attached to me by a line or in his crate when he is in the house. Most of that would go away if she would just neuter the poor fellow but her husband has a problem with it


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 22, 2013)

Reignmaker I have lost count of the husbands that cross their legs when I mention neutering their male dogs. LOL. You would think they (meaning the testicles) were connected somehow, it is truly a male bonding sort of thing I just don't understand. My friends husband said he wanted his dog to be able to have sex and be happy. Convincing him that his dog would be happier without them was another thing. For instance, what I saw was a B quality very friendly lab from a back yard breeder. Owner had another intact older male living in same house with aggression issues and younger intact male was already picking fights with other dog. Owner wanted dog to have sex and make baby dogs with somebody elses female (they won't own a female dog)... yikes, hit my head but finally convinced them to do it, but husband still glares at me on occasion. haha. I was a vet tech and encountered many husbands that would gladly spay the females because the heats were such a pain to deal with , but wanted their male dogs in all their glory marking behavior and all.

I laugh when I see products such as "neuticles" that you can have your vet insert into the empty sac during the neutering procedure to make it look like your male dog is still intact. I guess they come in different sizes too. ... ok, now I am just being silly but after reading the ad for them I imagined somebody buying the smaller size for a big dog and having a min pin with doberman sized neuticles. sorry, I still can't believe they exist and just cant help being amused somewhat..

There are dogs that just plain like to pee, and there are dogs that have a jackhammer leg lifting problem and they enjoy watering everything in sight and even will walk up to people and pee on them too. When showing dogs, we all knew not to walk too near the miniature pinscher intact males as they would pee out of their crate as you walked by and if you got any pee on you, you were a male dog target all day at the indoor shows where trees and bushes were not to be found.

I always give my "dogs improve after neutering" with a speech about some training to go with it, because training is a big part of everything and dogs are smarter than most folks give them credit for. The number 1 reason dogs are given up on is basic training. It is so sad. Some of the brightest and smartest and most awesome dogs are the ones folks quit on and give away or rehome. Why? Because those are very smart dogs, and smart dogs are not content with just sitting around and doing nothing all day while folks work or have other things to do, so they act out and do things the owner does not like. They are called "dumb" by the owner which breaks my heart. My best dogs have been ones that I call "gift dogs". I have friends who do agility and they pick from the shelter high energy dogs with alot of zoom. Add obedience and agility and you have a dog with a zest for life and a job to do.

The dog doesnt care if you have email, or you want to stare at your iphone and be a zombie once you get home, they want you to get up, take them out, train them and tell them they are good dogs. They want their pack loving and peaceful.

I have 7 dogs in my home and we have a peaceful pack. They all get mommy and family time and they are all content with their place in the pack. The younger ones get plenty of exercise ,and the old geriatric dogs get quality time too.

take care and bless all of you dog lovers out there who make a difference and care and do what is right.

snicker.. bet some of you are googling "neuticles" right now. yep they do exist. Options to keep wife and husband happy. Nobody knows except your vet. Unless of course you pick an odd size, kind of like Dolly Parton.


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## chandab (Oct 22, 2013)

Just had to comment on men, hubbies, etc having a hard time with neutering their male dogs; I'm married to a rancher, his dad is a rancher, etc... Neither want to neuter male dogs, but both willingly geld colts and castrate bull calves. [My FIL has been gelding his own colts for over 60 years, last one he did himself was just a couple years ago, he's 78 this year; that colt is probably the last colt he'll buy and train, but he's still riding and driving his horses. He has 2 Percherons, 4 Fjords and 2 dun saddle horses.]


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 23, 2013)

I hope you all know I am just generalizing on the men with their dogs comments and not trying to be mean at all. I have had a couple of outstanding bred dogs in my lifetime I was tempted to keep intact and felt guilty for doing the snip on them. I was given a two year old doberman once that had decent german bloodlines and he was gorgeous. his breeder owner was getting a divorce and she came into work one day and held a hand full of registration papers up like a hand of cards and says "pick a dog, any dog" and he is yours. I said, "Is Max in that pile?" and she says, yes.. and signs the papers and handed them to me and says, "now he is yours". I was 18 and my parents forbid me to bring home the "killer doberman".

He lived at the vet hospital where I worked and I began taking obedience classes with him. He was very fond of humping anything that bent over in front of him. He weighed 95 lbs and one embarassing moment when he jumped me in front of my vet, my vet says "I can fix that". LOL. Neutered and trained and mascot of the vet hospital. He wore a lab coat and stethiscope around his neck and we called him Dr. Max., He sang to the song "dust in the wind" and became my constant companion. One day my parents noticed him in my car and said "what is that?", I said... my dog. They again said I couldn't bring him home, and I said, I don't care, he is mine.

Then one day "dr max opened the door to the kennel and went in to the back where we were boarding dogs and ate 15 bowls of dog food the technician was soaking for feeding. He bloated. I stayed with him and walked him and was planning to sleep in the kennel all night with him to be sure he didn't get a torsion and my mom says "you can bring home the dog for ONE NIGHT".

Well.. with all the obedience training and neutering and socialization, Max was ready to meet my parents. My dad who never liked dogs, LOVED max. This was a push button obedience trained boy with a great sense of humor. Dog of my dreams. He lived almost 16 years. He was my introduction to the wonderful world of dog training and taught me that great dogs are worth their weight in gold and even unwilling parents can be convinced to let a big dog into their house if he is trained properly. Neutering helped too. When you do right by a dog they get more freedom. Freedom to go everywhere and stroll and horse shows, dog shows, art shows, parties (max always got an invitation to come with me). In the days before cell phones, having your teenage daughter toting a doberman around made my parents more comfortable. When I got a flat tire on I95 one night and had to get help from a stranger to get the lug nuts off the tire, I was glad to have Max with me. The guy that stopped says, I have a daughter and I wouldn't want her on I95 changing her tire at night... I said " I have a doberman" and he said... "well, now that we are on equal terms, lets get that tire changed.

take care and best wishes. Train, neuter, love... Dogs are awesome.

PS, there are many un-neutered very mannerly dogs out there just like there are many mannerly miniature horse stallions out there. But like in minis, many folks just aren't capable or have the time to deal with the hormones and drives and for those folks, neutering regardless of beauty and breeding is the right choice. One should never feel guilty for neutering a beautiful and well bred animal. Often it is the smart thing to do.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 23, 2013)

Well, you have made me laugh (neuticles




) and then got me feeling teary eyed - my first obedience dog was a doberman too. He was poorly bred, had health issues and died of cancer at 5yrs but he changed forever the way I approach dog ownership. When you say "The number 1 reason dogs are given up on is basic training." I have always said it is as simple as consistency, it isn't what you teach so much as it is that you have clear guidelines and help the dog to know them and know he has made you happy. The rules are always the rules. Spend time with him and your dog will find a way to fit into your life, they really want to fit in their pack rather desperately. By showing them how you are doing right by them, neutering just helps that along IMO. Anyway I didn't mean to steal the thread



I was just making my comment clear. I think, shorthorsemom, you and I have very similar ideas where dogs are concerned.

Chanda, thats funny, I never thought about it but I also know a fair number of farmers/ranchers who do their own castrating, calves, colts, pigs and not one of them has a neutered dog lol (not that I am suggesting they neuter their own dogs mind you - I have a horror story about someone who tried -_shudder_)


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## chandab (Oct 23, 2013)

I know none of the guys I know would even think about trying to neuter their own dog, but most can't get past they "they'll miss it" attitude, and won't take them to the vet either. My MIL had an argument with my FIL about neutering her little house dog, its her pet, so her rules, but he had a hard time with it.


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## Helicopter (Oct 24, 2013)

_A Maltese followed me and my Cocker home early one morning. After breakfast I put her in the car and took her back to where I'd seen Maltese before. No not theirs. Took her to the local vet "All Maltese look the same'' __he said and told me she was about 5 months old. Rang the radio station and left details. Phoned the Dog Pound. ''You have to bring her in. That's stealing". Well not in this life time or the next would I take a dog, any dog, to the dog pound. After 2 weeks I would have lied through my teeth to keep her but thankfully it didn't come to that._

_She died last year aged 15. Lizzie was her name. Dizzy Liz, Lizzy Diz, Tinkerbelle, Tiny Tink._


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## JaniceZ (Oct 28, 2013)

Just wanted to update you all. Hubby and I were away for a funeral all weekend, and A friend stayed home to watch the dogs. She has been living with us for a few months, and I trust her completely. She texted me yesterday afternoon, she had gone grocery shopping, and when she opened to door the dog we found (We finally settled on Harley for a name) took off like a rocket out the door, knocking her over. She got up and tried to call/catch him, but couldn't find him anywhere. She looked for over 4 hours, but he wasn't coming back.

Hubby and I came home at midnight last night, and were shocked to find the doorknob at the front door had been chewed so much it was almost flattened, and the door frame at the back door totally ripped to shreds. My friend had only been gone for about an hour and had let the dogs out before that, so I don't think he was just desperate to go to the bathroom. What would make him act like this?

We are keeping an eye out for him, looking on Kijiji, and have called the humane society, though I doubt they would just give him back to us as we don't really have proof of ownership.


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## Mona (Oct 29, 2013)

Sounds like a major case separation anxiety. This dog will definitely need training in that area...crate training. (if/when he comes back)


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 29, 2013)

awwwwww, so sorry for him. That is so sad.

This dog got very stressed from another change in his life, sounds like he was very overwhelmed by you leaving and a stranger being his caregiver but his roots in that type of stress go very deep I would think and this is not something new for him to experience. That is separation anxiety. My friend had a dog that destroyed a crate and crushed her door knobs in her house when it got out and tore up her door frames. He was a very tough case.

There is hope for separation anxiety dogs and training methods available.

I keep thinking of how scared he must be now. I hope he finds his way.

Bless you for trying. take care.


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## JaniceZ (Oct 29, 2013)

He came back!! Showed up on our doorstep this afternoon! I am so glad he is safe!





Thanks for the advice Mona and Shorthorsemom. We usually crate them when we go places, but I did forget to tell the dog sitter. Harley is a challenge for sure. Does anyone have any good resources I can look at for dealing with separation anxiety?

Also, I have changed my mind, I think he is a shar pei cross rather than chow chow cross.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 29, 2013)




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## shorthorsemom (Oct 29, 2013)

Hi, WOW. He is back.. that is wonderful.

For separation first you need to find out if Harley is stressing in the crate when you leave, or if he is comfortable in his crate "zone" and happy with the routine of being crated and then you leave. You can stuff a bone for him and place it in the crate to occupy his mind, you can also serve him all his meals in the crate, to further convince him that his crate is a cool place to be.

If you can set up a camera that would help you determine if he is upset by you leaving, or upset with the change of his routine. Many dogs consider their crates a safe zone and are not stressed when the owner leaves, but can exhibit very stressed behavior if allowed loose in the whole house when you leave.

Why does this happen? Picture the dog whose owners allowed the dog freedom of the house. Dog chews up something or raids trash and gets diciplined hard when the owner returns. Dog associates loose in house, with huge reprimand when owner gets home. Dog is crated, dog is always a good boy when owner returns. Owners that banish dog to being tied in yard for destructive behavior can create a dog that craves to get outside when owner is gone.

THis is merely one senario, not a description of what I think Harley is doing.. need more information to try to determine what Harley's "trigger" is for the anxiety.

So first, I would go back to crate routine when you leave. Find some way to tape Harley and his crate behavior when you are gone. If he is biting the crate and restless and circling and wont settle, you leaving is probably the trigger.. If he is quiet and comfortable in his crate, then perhaps it was leaving him loose in the house that roused some demons from his past life.

Let me know what you find out...

to recap.. need more information..First information needed... Is he happy crated when you leave, or is he stressed in the crate when you leave?

Also, If you can start feeding him in the crate with the door open and door closed that would be good too.

So glad he came back, you are giving him new good memories.

take care let me know if you don't understand my post... typing a bit fast here.


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## JaniceZ (Oct 30, 2013)

So we left the dogs alone for 30 min today, So I filmed Harley in his Crate. He cries the entire time, raging from what I will describe as sorrowful to desperate over the 30min. I did not put anything in with him as I cant seem to find any Kongs, Pippin probably snuck them into the yard and burred them. Next time I will have something for him.

Also, this time I had pippin locked upstairs, out of Harleys sight. We were using pippins puppy crate before we left for the funeral, however I don't feel comfortable leaving either of them in it for too long as I think it is a bit of a squeeze for either of them to fit in it. I think it is a max 40 or 45lbs (I measured, its 20 inches wide, and 34 inches long, on the inside) and Pippin is 55lbs, while Harley is 60lbs right now, and a bit underweight. As long as I consistently put Pippin upstairs and Harley in the crate, is that alright?

Thanks for all your help! I really appreciate it.

Here is the video:


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## Mona (Oct 30, 2013)

Janice, this crate is plenty big enough for this dog.



I only watched the very beginning...my internet is too slow and it takes forever, but I would buy a big bone, the smoked type with marrow center, and let him chew on that. Once he eats all the marrow, you can use the same bone to occupy him by using cheese whiz or peanut butter smeared by knife into the hollow of it. I would also have him sleep in of at bed time, in your bed room so he can see you even, just to get him used to being crated.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 31, 2013)

Ditto what Mona said. I would also crate him with that bone when you are home and not leaving. Crate him while you are in the room with him, go about your business, then let him out again so he doesn't always think the crate means you are leaving. If he is calm in the crate while you are home, let him have some quality crate time while you have no intentions of leaving. If he rages in the crate while you are home and this causes stress let me know.

I would also have a chat with your vet about possible medical treatment if you can not get him to the point of being comfortable that you are leaving and coming back again.. If he is raging in the crate and very upset, medical treatment might get him to the point of being able to reach his mind. Dogs with severe separation issues just shut down and it is very difficult to get to the mind part to train and rehabilate. Also, the medications can be temporary use item (can also try herbal medications also). My vet uses both herbal and medical treatments, so I typically ask my vet which herbals to try first.

I have tried quite a few herbals and they helped with some of my dogs, but for a severe case min pin I had with high anxiety due to dementia (not separation) we went with a medication called Amitriptalline and my collie at one point needed treatment with a different medication (I would have to go look it up)... that calmed her brain waves when she was having "episodes" where we are thinking she might have a brain tumor and her erratic episodes were not calmed any other way. She is off meds now and doing great and we are not sure what was the trigger or why it went away but the medication was a life saver for her when we were considering putting her to sleep because her episodes were so severe. These medications are reasonable on price, calm the brain waves and don't make the dog overly sleepy. I actually couldn't tell they were on anything, just could tell by the results and calming behavior.

But... first, we always try training, but I don't let dogs go long with hysterical behavior before I start looking for calming aids.

I typically start with holostic treatments first but depends on severity. , I have also used acupuncture.. I use calming drops, DAP collars, and have had terrific results using a DAP diffuser plugged into the wall to use pherome therapy. It really worked for a dog I adopted that would run around and eliminate in fear and stress.

let me look some stuff up.. try the bone first and tape reaction and try crating while you are home... be back later, have appointment and need to look up names of a few things for you to try.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 31, 2013)

ps.. read your post on my kindle and didn't realize you attached the video. I will watch it later when I get back. sorry.

I also would consider one of those metal crates that are open on all sides. Heavy duty bars and a clip on the door.

Some dogs don't like how they can't see out of those plastic airline crates and wouldn't take much for a dog his size to pop the door and then you will have loose stressed dog crushing door knobs again.

I prefer the fold and carry type crates that I can fold down and move around. You can use that crate in your bedroom when home and have another crate for downstairs so you don't have to move crates around.


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## JaniceZ (Oct 31, 2013)

The crate in the video is quite large, I agree lol. I was talking of our second crate that we had for my dog, Pippin, when he was a puppy.

I do believe it is us leaving that makes Harley anxious. When I am home I leave Harley in there occasionally when Pippin and Harley's wrestling is to much commotion and I cant put them outside. He seems quite comfortable in there on those occasions. As I sit here typing, Harley is laying in the crate with the door open.

Unfortunately, buying another crate is not in the budget. We cannot afford another dog at all if I am completely honest. We are trying to line up a home for him, I have put a few feelers out looking if someone would be interested, however I am being picky in who I would trust to provide a dog like Harley a good home, and those who I know would spend enough time and training with him don't want a dog with any issues. So for the mean time I am trying to help him as much as possible.

I just took this picture of the boys, I guess Pippin (Dog on the right) wanted to be in the crate too!


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 31, 2013)

In that photo he does look like a shar pei cross. I understand not having budget for "one more dog". I recently had a JRT show up and I just couldn't manage to keep him and my neighbor has taken him in. he needed major training and I just didn't have the time or the finances and for me just one more dog would have mean taking in an 8th dog. I have 7 now. We seem to be a way station for wayward critters on our farm. Just spotted a momma cat and kittens a few nights ago, new drop offs.

I have all our farm cats neutered and this is somebody outcast. more to capture and neuter, sheesh. money is tight.

You can list him on rescue groups websites and have yourself as a foster home too.

I would try giving him some rescue remedy to start and a stuffed marrow bone or something really yummy when you leave.

You can google victoria stillwell separation anxiety on you tube and watch some videos that might give you some ideas.

best wishes and thanks for being so kind as to help him find his way. sorry I am typing so fast. Halloween and kids and too much work today, running in and out.

take care. cute photo


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## paintponylvr (Nov 1, 2013)

I'm not much help on the separation anxiety, but wanted to weigh in and say thank you for what you are doing to help. Every little bit is GREAT!!

Two of our current dogs are rescues - one of whom followed our daughter home...well sort of. Though we tried to find her owners - no such luck and she fit in so well that eventually we've had her spayed and she is now a member of our household. She's a cutie!! and has received some basic training in manners and advanced training our daughter's way in other things... Our daughter moved into her own place and took her dog with her - only to find that she had severe separation anxiety w/o the other people in the family, no outside area and no other dogs. The whining, crying and howling almost got Sierra booted out of her apartment. She brought her home in tears (we are only about 45 minutes drive away, but at the time sierra was working full time and going to ITT part time and the apartment was literally 5 minutes from where she worked and 15 from ITT). In some ways it was great for us - I love the little sneaky pooch. BUT she's a hole digger and right now we can't put her out in the back yard with the boys because we can't find her latest escape. So she's in the house and then out on the tie line out front - bleck - she's a "tree wrapper"... O well. We still end up with the 2 much bigger boys settled between hubby and I and then 1 or the other of us has Chicka on our laps until her person arrives home (O, forgot to mention that after a year of living on her own, she simply became overwhelmed with the cost and living on her own and moved back in w/ us) - at which time she vacates (& leaves nail holes in our bodies as we become living spring boards) our laps and leaps into Sierra's arms - all 35 lbs of her pretty, long red haired self w/ the soulful eyes!

The 2nd dog is one that our oldest daughter, before she moved out, got from a neighbor who refuses to spay/neuter any dogs and always has from between 10 to 30 dogs about 1/2 mile from us back in the trees... Gobbles came to us as a puppy, named Goblin as he was born Halloween week and was black and white... Part pit, part something and part dalmatian (so they say), he's developed a lot of the size and breadth of a pitt. When oldest moved out - she's never been in a situation to take him with - so he's always been with Larry and I. Will have to dig out records as I have no idea how old he is now (yet I can remember at least the birth years of each of our 37 head of horses and ponies, go figure) - think 4 or 5 right now. He, too, has been neutered. Nothing really problematic with him. Just a big smoochy love bug! He drools some (especially if you are eating dinner in front of the tv), he snores and OMG - the farts can drive you out of the room... But he's our Gobbles.

On the other question, which I know that the OP has both had answered and pretty much answered for herself, we found another dog a few years back. At the time, we stuck up flyers w/ pictures we took and some of the info on the dog (he'd arrived with a collar, had been cared for, was pretty "cool" but was all male - pitt we thought but not entirely sure). Put an ad on Craig's list. Our daughter also took him to two separate vet clinics in two different towns and counties (we live between them), contacted the Animal Shelters in both counties. He wasn't micro-chipped and no-one had seen him and no one knew who he was. I was pretty upset when our daughter, who seemingly knew better, let this unknown dog into her bedroom and onto her bed! All I could think of was what if he's sick, has rabies, is mean, attacks if she talks in her sleep etc, etc... He, too, was a great big love bug and I gradually relaxed somewhat. Honestly, he was beautiful! But he was HUGE and his mouth would easily wrap around my thigh (I'm not small). Right from the start, he was Skye's dog and if someone came too close to her (even her boyfriend at the time - which warmed me right up to him,



), he'd growl and "ruff up". That wasn't completely acceptable (UHHH = MY HOUSE), but we worked it out. I think it lasted three weeks, when suddenly Skye called me in tears. Someone had seen one of the flyers and knew someone who knew someone... Owner called Skye. I wasn't there when the owner arrived - but even Skye had to admit that it was his owner. The dog responded right away to "his name" (different than what we'd been calling him - which he'd started to respond to), tried to get to his owner while on leash, wrestled with his owner (a young man that ended up in tears according to Skye's boyfriend whom thought that was totally un-manly! still ROFLMBO when I think of this...). The owner confirmed it quit nicely when he had us call his vet clinic more than 50 miles away and they were able to tell us about a couple of scars (I knew one of the vets from the clinic, so was pretty sure it wasn't a hoax) on the dog - but were surprised that we hadn't found the micro-chip (he'd been chipped) or his rabies tab (well the hanger had been on his collar originally)... So the dog went home w/ his owner. He lived more than 18 miles away and had the dog in a fenced back yard and sometimes chained when he wasn't home (at work or?). Said there was a running feud between himself and some of the neighbors and felt that someone had let the dog loose and maybe even transported him part way to somewhere else (?), but wasn't sure. He had flyers similar to ours - but in his area. Quite the surprise to find that out!! Of course, we knew he was an unaltered male - but turned out he was a show dog and had done well as a younger puppy but hadn't been shown recently. He was 2 years old at the time we found him. He did know lots more than we thought - but with different terms and his name turned out to be "Jack". It was after that that we ended up with "Gobbles"...



We kept in touch for a while, but haven't heard from him lately.

Anyhoo, just wanted to share our experiences! Again, I bow to you - rescuing a dog that you can't really keep... Explained in depth in another post...


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## JaniceZ (Nov 3, 2013)

Update: Since the last time I wrote I have putting a Kong with peanut-butter in with Harley, and leaving Pippin upstairs in our bedroom. There is no change in his behavior in the crate with the kong. I have also been feeding him all his meals in the crate. At first he would not eat when we put him in there, but I think he has figured out that him going in the crate does not necessarily mean we are leaving, either that or he has learnt the faster he eats the quicker he gets out of the crate lol. During meals we leave pippin loose in the same room the crate is in. Well today we had to run to walmart, and were in a bit of a rush, so we put Harley in his crate with a bone (first time trying leaving him with a bone), and left pippin loose in the room. Same as feeding time. I didnt have time to set up the laptop to film him, but when we got back the bone had been chewed on! I have to go out again later today so I am going to leave him in the crate and film him. Ill let you know how it goes!


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 3, 2013)

I was wondering if the other dog loose in the room would help. I wasn't sure why Pippin was left elsewhere.

In my home I have both crate dogs and loose dogs but they are all together in the same room when I leave and they are very happy that way. Sometimes my loose dog lays right next to the crate door of one of the other dogs. I have a couple of dogs that are much happier in a crate and get stressed when left loose. I have a couple that stress more when crated. You are being very observant and doing a great job trying to figure out what makes him tick. that is half the battle right there.. good job! keep us posted.


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## JaniceZ (Nov 4, 2013)

So I think we are back to square 1 with Harley. I left today for about 2 hours. Pippin was loose in the same room and Harley had his bone, same as last time. I recorded him, and he is back to howling. I actually could hear him when I was on my way up the driveway. Would this be an appropriate time to try rescue remedy?


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 4, 2013)

Yep, would try rescue remedy, perhaps a DAP collar. If you don't get results quickly I would chat with your vet about medical treatments. I have never regretted the medical treatments my vet has offered a couple of my more severe case dogs in my home, not for separation, but one for senility and barking behavior and the other for "some sort of unknown CNS episodes" my dog was having. One dog was on medication for life, the other was only on the medication for a few months and was weaned off successfully when the behavior went away. Some vets recommend prozac but I have no experience with this medication and dogs I have owned. ... One of my dogs was on amitriptalline, and another dog of mine was on Gabapentin for two completely different reasons and I was very pleased with the results.

I also tried a chewable holostic calming aid on a chinese crested I have currently that is old and senile and gets into bouts of incessant barking. I was not impressed with the price or the results on that one and have forgotten what it was called. I am thinking about asking for something soon for her.

It is important to remember.... It is not a bail out on the dog to consider medication that is not holostic.

Calming the brain waves so you can reach the active mind is not a bad thing to do.

PS, what kind of dog food do you feed? Just curious. I always look at the food a dog is on too.

I have a manners minder (expensive gadget doggie thing) that can be set up to deliver treats randomly into your crate while you are gone. My friend reported it helped her dog tremendously for separation issues and barking when she was gone. It was cool, but I don't think it was cool enough to recommend somebody go out and buy one, however it really had its training benefits in other areas for me teaching a dog to "go out" on command to a specific location and sit and helping a puppy love his crate. It had a remote control becides the timed delivery. You can watch the dog.. when he quiets for a minute, trigger a treat reward that drops from the top of the crate. He thinks when he gets quiet, he gets a food reward. Only works on food motivated dogs though.

.


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## JaniceZ (Nov 4, 2013)

So It looks like rescue remedy is not something that I can drive to the store and pick up in Canada, I think I'd have to order it online. Has anyone had experience with burts bees calming spray?

We feed Harley the Candidae chicken formula.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 5, 2013)

Chat with your vet and see what they think u should try. Most vets have some holostic treatments in office. Rescue remedy not 100% so I would not order in..I would try vet first.


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## JaniceZ (Nov 8, 2013)

I found rescue remedy! I have been giving Harley 4-6 drops about 20 min before I leave for 2 days. The first time no change, but yesterday he did not howl when I left, and when my friend came home and let him out, she did not hear him howling from outside the door, as we normally would. When we usually let him out we take away his bone so that he only has it when we are gone. Well this time Harley snarled at her so she let him keep it. It was still in the crate last night, when I tried to get Harley out so we could go to bed (this crate is downstairs, both dogs sleep upstairs). He wouldn't come out, so I reached in to grab his collar and he snapped at me. I think he thought i was going for the bone. He has growled at my friend and husband before, but never at me until yesterday. Needless to say he got in big trouble. My gut says don't give Harley bones anymore, but I think the only reason he didn't howl the whole time we were gone yesterday was because the rescue remedy calmed him enough that he realized he had a bone. He has had a bone every time we leave. Any thoughts?


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 8, 2013)

dogs of mine that guard bones do not get bones loose in the house. I do trade training because sometimes they find something they will guard and I need it back from them and don't want to get bit getting it. I use something delicious and small treats, such as cheese or hotdog chunks or something he doesn't get any other time. Then I trade for what I need them to leave alone. My dogs are allowed bones only in crate, but reaching in can be dangerous as you described on dogs that are not trained that they do not have to guard their posessions. It is not uncommon and on dogs of mine that are super defensive of the bones, I do not allow bones until I do the extensive desentization training. If you force this issue before he gets the following training he will bite.

So, first take away bone when he isn't watching and put it away for now. Then start training him in and out of crate command using food. Say "kennel" or something like that and toss (small piece) liverworst or hotdog or cheese chunk into crate. Say, "lets go" or something like that and toss treat on floor in front of crate inviting him to exit kennel on command. Start this exercise on leash so you can guide him back and forth without touching the dog or collar.. give command, toss treat in crate, praise when he goes in. Give command for exit "I use lets go".. toss treat on floor (do not feed by hand). Praise when he picks it up. In and out, praise and treat. Then go outside on a leash for a walk...

When you leave, give rescue remedy. Then toss treat on floor, (say get it)... then (off leash) guide him to crate and toss treat in and say "kennel". (reaching in crate to take off leash can earn you a bite) so that is why I want you to do the final entry into crate off leash, take leash off outside crate, dog enters willingly. You can try back and forth off leash too, in and out, so he doesn't think he always gets the door shut ffinally every time you toss the treat in the kennel. Do the in and out training when you don't really have to be somewhere on time.

Again, watch him via video and see what he does without the bone in the crate.

You can try giving him the bone later when he is well established and not challenging you any more.

I have had dogs well trained and lovely temperaments that just cannot handle bones and especially rawhide and if I do the training and not satisfied I have selected a more boring bone for those dogs in the crate, such as a nylabone but with peanutbutter smeared on the outside that they lick off quickly. Really good soup bones or rawhide can unglue some dogs into defense mode. Doesn't mean it is a bad dog, just means you have too exciting of a bone and need to phase back, retrain and start again. Kind of like when I trained in classes and I was using cheese and my dobie was grabbing my fingers hard for the reward. I trained using kibble. He loved it, but it didn't make him crazy and grabby.

.

With the rescue he might not need the bone for comfort. Lets try taking away bone... using specific food rewarded command to go in and out of the crate and tell your helper never to reach into the crate for the dog.

Ask him to exit willingly and then let him out for his potty break. I prefer to use a leash for outside walking to get message across if you can. I don't allow dogs to roam free during the first few weeks aclimating in my home for safety sake.

Use "super treats".

Eventually you can do the trade training and teach him to give the bone or allow you to take the bone for a super treat. That training takes time, but worth it.

Let me know if you hit any snag or do not understand what I wrote. Writing fast but needed to get message to you quickly about the bones.

PS be very careful. His growl was a warning, the snap and miss is an escalation of the warning. You are very close to a bite. Need to be very careful not to force the bite. Once he takes a stand reaching toward him will force a bite. Ian dunbar used to say do a "retreating reprimand" where you verbally correct while taking a step back, encourage dog forward using food and reward for forward behavior. I toss food treats into a small bowl on the floor or on the floor itself, I dont feed by hand at first in this training..

I think Ian dunbar might call it an instructive reprimand too.. You could ask for a sit first once he comes forward for the treat. Eventually you can treat by hand and teach him a soft mouth take but for now don't do that..

best wishes, be careful.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 8, 2013)

ps.. still writing. You can teach a dog not to guard a food dish by putting the dish on the floor, holding the food in a cup, go past dish, drop in some kibble, walk on... Feed little bits of kibble into empty dish so dog learns reaching for dish brings food to him, rather than taking it away.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Nov 8, 2013)

Something else you could try instead of a bone is a kong. You can fill it with Pnut butter or something or give him one of those toys that will drop a piece of kibble when it is rolled around. It might still give him something to fill his time without creating a need to keep it from you once its empty. Just a thought.


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## JaniceZ (Nov 8, 2013)

Thanks! I will try downgrading to a Kong with peanut butter. we did try the Kong before without success, but that was without the rescue remedy.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Nov 8, 2013)

I would be careful to remove the kong afterwards when he is either not there at all or safely restrained until you are confidant he hasn't decided to start hoarding anything in *his *house (his kennel). No point in risking a bite that results in bigger problems.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 8, 2013)

Tell u the truth he is a good candidate for a manners minder. Google it or I will send you a link. He would need an open crate though. Put manners minder on top..take off feed tray and set up to deliver treats into crate on timed schedule. I love mine. Still thinking.


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