# My mini has little or no frog and hollow hooves in the front!!!!!



## kay56649 (Aug 25, 2012)

My mini made has hollow hooves and either a small or

Or no frog! Our farrier said its pretty weird but I have no clue what to do about

It!!!! Please reply of you have any suggestions!! Do you think mini shoes would help?


----------



## Riverrose28 (Aug 25, 2012)

Did you just purchase her? We once bought a filly that didn't have any frogs left in the rear hooves, we thought the farrier just trimmed them off too short for whatever reason, she did recover and grow new frogs that were normal.


----------



## WashingtonCowgirl (Aug 25, 2012)

Do you have pictures? I've never seen a horse with no/so little you can hardly tell frogs


----------



## Riverrose28 (Aug 25, 2012)

My hubby is a farrier, and the filly that we bought, he figured that she had thrush, and the farrier just trimmed away all the dead frog and hoof! I've not seen it since, but it did grow back on this filly! Yes pictures would be nice.


----------



## horsehug (Aug 25, 2012)

Once in a while some of my minis shed on their own most of their frog to where it looks kind of the way you describe..... "hollow" and I notice it when I clean their hooves out to trim them, but it always grows back and is nothing to worry about. ......at least in the case of mine when I see it once in a while. So if yours is something different I do not know the answer.

Susan O.


----------



## WashingtonCowgirl (Aug 25, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> My hubby is a farrier, and the filly that we bought, he figured that she had thrush, and the farrier just trimmed away all the dead frog and hoof! I've not seen it since, but it did grow back on this filly! Yes pictures would be nice.


How strange! I can't imagine a hoof without a frog!


----------



## Minimor (Aug 25, 2012)

Simetunes they do aged their fringe to the point where the remaining portion is very small--it is not that there is no frig, it is just a very small one,, rather well up in the hoof. It is nothing to worry about, the hoof is still healthy and the frog grows out again.

There is nothing wrong with a concave sole; it is actually good in that it gives the foot some clearance--doesn't matter a lot of the time but if the horse is on rocky ground--either a pasture with some stones or gravel or if the horse is being driven on some gravelled surfaces--there is less chance of bruising.

Assuming it is a healthy foot--properly trimmed and not overgrown or having contracted heels--there is no need to worry.


----------



## Kiss This (Aug 25, 2012)

I had bought a mini with no frogs & that was because she had sever thrush & it ate away her frogs. All 4 were gone. But they grew back with no problems. Took a long time.


----------



## charlottein (Aug 25, 2012)

My gelding shed 3 of his frogs off the first week I had him and also had that hollow look because he needed a trim. All better now that he is trimmed, and the frog naturally sloughs off. My dude did not have thrush and has no problems with his feet and the farrier was not concerned.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 25, 2012)

We got her for $200 and in foal to a stud worth $2000 so I'm guessing it was because of her feet! They kind of almost pancake outward and don't stand up straight! Her filly has completely normal feet, but I'm worried about what I should do with her mom? I will try to take pictures tonight when they come in!




thanks for replying and trying to help! It just seems she has no support in her feet!

We got her in November 2011


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 25, 2012)

Her hooves are not only hollow but very deep!! They r about 1-2 inches deep and she is about 35"!

Do you think she should have mini horse shoes?


----------



## JAX (Aug 25, 2012)

Pictures would be helpful and would let others be more comfortable about telling you their thoughts and/or ideas.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 25, 2012)

Im just telling them what is going on right now! I have no idea what to do and that's why I am asking...I don't know why they wouldnt be comfortable!

Oh sorry please ignore the last post!!!! I misread the last post!:$


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 25, 2012)

But yes I will take some pictures tonight when they come in for the night!


----------



## JAX (Aug 25, 2012)

Oops Im sorry I didnt mean to upset you. I just meant that its easier to give an opinion on what is normal or not, or what to do about a problem if they can actually see what you are talking about. I really am sorry if that came out as offending to you as that was not my intention at all.


----------



## disneyhorse (Aug 25, 2012)

We can't even begin to help you without pictures


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 25, 2012)

Yeah I'm sorry! I will have pictures posted in an hour tops!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 25, 2012)

No no...you didn't upset me at all I just read it wrong the first time! Ha ha no please don't take it that way! I just read it wrong.


----------



## Minimor (Aug 26, 2012)

It sounds like her feet may be far too long; if they are spread out it is probably because she hasn't had regular hoof trims. Horses that go a long time between trims often end up with bad flares, or even very spread out hoofs. It will take a few trims but her feet should come back. It is likely they will always have the tendency to flare out if they get long. Some horses grow very upright feet ( show horse hoof!) and others get spread out feet.

That is my best guess based on your last posts. Would need pix to say for sure.

I don't think I would use shoes; shoes can help to draw in a spread out hoof but I have personally worked wonders with neglected feet just with trimming, no shoes.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 26, 2012)

Her feet have been trimmed every 6-8 weeks and no later than 8 weeks since November 2011. Should we do it more often?? Her hooves are kind of shaped funny, they haven't cracked or anything. My farrier said its weird. I will post pictures to help you out. It will be in a little bit, because I will put them in, clean her hooves out, take some pictures, then post them! Sorry it has been a busy day and not much time to take pictures.


----------



## HGFarm (Aug 26, 2012)

Perhaps you need a farrier that is more specialized in getting her feet straightened out? Have you had your vet take a look at them? I have seen farriers trim feet, but didnt trim what they should have, so sounds like the mare needs a different type of corrective trim?


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 26, 2012)

Our farriers and vets in or area are pretty poor, but our farrier does a beautiful job on our quater horses and mini donkeys! Even Jasmine's foal! Her feet are just very different!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 26, 2012)

sorry it took so long for the pictures to come up! There was a horse show today!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 26, 2012)

They are about 2 inches deep in the deepest part of the inside of her hoof! She has a tiny little frog at the bottom of the hoof in the deep part of the hollow hoof but you really have to pick out her feet to find it!! The frog is like 2 inches into her foot!


----------



## Lil Timber Buck (Aug 26, 2012)

In my estimation, she could stand to lose a lot of that extra hoof. She is really standing up on those. See this post about it http://www.ponypros.net/blog/tag/mini-horse/


----------



## Tremor (Aug 26, 2012)

You need a new farrier.

Those heels and toes need taken down A LOT. If your "farrier" was competent enough he/she would realize that. It's not just weird.

Get a new farrier. An actual one.


----------



## horsehug (Aug 26, 2012)

Her feet are just too long by far and need trimmed a lot. But the frog will grow back. It is as I thought it might be.

Susan O.


----------



## Mona (Aug 26, 2012)

Those feet almost look like she may have been foundered in the past??


----------



## Jean_B (Aug 26, 2012)

Tremor said:


> You need a new farrier.
> 
> Those heels and toes need taken down A LOT. If your "farrier" was competent enough he/she would realize that. It's not just weird.
> 
> Get a new farrier. An actual one.


Have to agree. The trim on those feet is non-existant. She needs LOTS of competent TLC on those feet. It appears like she may have had a serious case of thrush in the past and that's why they are gone...and with her heels that deep, it was impossible for her to put any pressure on the frog, which is what stimulates blood flow and keeps them healthy. Also, heels that deep encourage manure to remain impacted in the hoof, which breeds more thrush.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 26, 2012)

Mona said:


> Those feet almost look like she may have been foundered in the past??


How can you tell if a horse has foundered because before we bought her she was on a 10 acre pasture. Also, how can you tell if he may have had thrush? Maybe I can look closer than the picture can show and see if she has

Either one!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 26, 2012)

Yeah, thank you so much because we couldn't figure out why they looked so long! They are trimmed regularly, but we have been hesitating to get a new farrier because he charges $8 a mini and $15 for a big horse or every other farrier is $30 a horse and we have 6 animals that need fatter work! Do you think we should just mention to him to trim her hooves more


----------



## Kiss This (Aug 26, 2012)

You need to take off at least 1 inch all round the foot. The heels only need to be 1/2 inch tall. The frog should touch the ground as it is the thing that pumps the blood around the foot. Pay the money for this mini to get her feet put back to where they should be & maybe the other one can continue afterwards. But they won't be able to take if all off at once. Too much of an adjustment. But who knows.


----------



## Jens (Aug 27, 2012)

If it were me, I would just get a new ferrier. You get what you pay for and her hooves really need someone who knows what they are doing.


----------



## Margo_C-T (Aug 27, 2012)

I wouldn't presume to specify that she needs "one inch" off; that is a LOT,on such a small animal...but I certainly agree that her feet are much too long, and need a uniform trim(meaning not just of the toe or just of the heel, but 'all around'.) It may not be possible/safe to take off ALL the excess length in one trimming, because the 'quick' tends to advance downward in a hoof that has gotten too long, and may need to be 'driven back up' by repeated moderate trims, usually closer together in time than the 'usual' interval of 6-10 weeks.

I also very much agree--you need a farrier who actually knows what he/she is doing! Lack of genuine ability may be why your current one gets so much less than others for his work!

Margo, who has been trimming her own miniatures' feet since 1984


----------



## disneyhorse (Aug 27, 2012)

I will echo sentiments about needing a new farrier. Your horses feet are much too long.

No hoof, no horse. Cheap doesn't mean good... When it comes to feet, don't scrimp.


----------



## disneyhorse (Aug 27, 2012)

I wouldn't use the current farrier... Even with just telling them to take more off. Hoof trims are extremely basic, and if they can't do a good basic trim, they might screw up your horse and injure them. You are paying a farrier for their expertise. This one obviously doesn't know what they are doing. They should be talking to you about the nuances of your horses feet every time, not having you sense something is wrong and needing to go to a forum about a basic trim.

I pay $40 for a mini trim here, by the way, and it's money well spent. Whether you've got one horse or fifty, you can't scrimp on foot care. The horse is helpless to help itself.


----------



## chandab (Aug 27, 2012)

I guess I'm going to pretty much echo what others have already said... Get a new farrier! She needs someone knowledgeable to bring her hooves to where they should be.

As someone who has way too much experience with laminitis/founder, I really don't think they look like foundered hooves, but they are extremely over grown and starting to get out of balance. Don't be too surprised, when you do find that new farrier, if she has some abcesses in her hooves or they do bleed just a bit wiht a proper trim. Talk to your vet and see if they have a farrier they recommend.


----------



## Minimor (Aug 27, 2012)

The others are right, those feet ate way too long. I don't think she is foundered, her feet are just a bit dished from being left too long for much too long. The pressure on the toe causes the hoof to become dished. Nothing weird about those feet; I think your farrier is not too knowledgeable


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

Our vets here know nothing about horses, just how to give them shots and take coggins. We are limited to only a couple of farriers in the town I am in. We will try to give her the best hoof care we can! Thank you so much for your advice!! I will see what we can do about farriers, because he does an awesome job on everyone else's hooves, just not hers, and I think part of it is because she isn't a huge fan of gettin her hooves trimmed, so he always cuts her session short. We have a hoof file, is there anything we can do with that to help a little In between trims?


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

Also, all of the rest of the farriers in town are usually booked and most of them won't even take new people! The good farrier in our town won't accept anyone else new. We have ready called him. So we are pretty much stuck with the one we have. Next time we are over we will ask him to correct her feet and get them straightened out. He is a good family friend, so he will understand. I wish we lived in a bigger town where we could get better farrier service but unfortunately we live about 2 hours from the closest let's just say, big town. Lol


----------



## Tremor (Aug 27, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> Our vets here know nothing about horses, just how to give them shots and take coggins. We are limited to only a couple of farriers in the town I am in. We will try to give her the best hoof care we can! Thank you so much for your advice!! I will see what we can do about farriers, because he does an awesome job on everyone else's hooves, just not hers, and I think part of it is because she isn't a huge fan of gettin her hooves trimmed, so he always cuts her session short. We have a hoof file, is there anything we can do with that to help a little In between trims?


I wanted to make a couple notes.

Just because a vet is predominantly a cattle/pig/sheep vet they have to know something about horses. I think you're underestimating your vet.

Secondly, the fact that your farrier takes as little time as possible on this mare is a warning sign to me. They may not be paid to train that mare but they are paid to do a quality trim. You as the owner are supposed to make sure that your mare stands for the farrier. No excuses. Your "farrier" ought to be trimming your mare and charging you extra for the poor ground manners. They can and do get injured; size doesn't matter.

I trim my own minis (No I don't recommend it. I do it because a farrier isn't allowed on the property but I'm planning on becoming an AFA certified farrier when I graduate and have the money.) and it can take me an hour plus to trim one of my minis. In that time I am critiquing my own trim, soaking hooves, training my horse to stand for me, and actually trimming. (Soaking is a god send btw) I've had to deal with long hooves recently. It sucks.

Lastly, I would take a VERY careful look at your other horses' hooves. The problem may not be with just this one mare.


----------



## Minimor (Aug 27, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> We have a hoof file, is there anything we can do with that to help a little In between trims?


You would have to do a lot of filing to take off the amount of hoof that needs to come off.


----------



## rubyviewminis (Aug 27, 2012)

Oh geez. Listen, I stopped reading the posts at the pictures. Those heels need to be closer to the widest part of the frog. She most defintely has a fungus going on in the frog and bulb, see the slit ? Waay too long. Her toes will probably need to be backed up with regular 4 to 5 week trims. Instead of giving you the whole history of my nightmare farriers and learning to trim barefoot I'll just try to help even if others think I don't know what I'm talking about.

Most vets and farriers DO NOT help or know anything about hoof care in the respect of trims, balance, length, etc. and have no idea when they come across minis. Once she is trimmed down correctly her legs would probably go straight, and right now the way she is overgrown so much her coffin bone is pointing down on its tip, and all her joints are stressed. Hooves should be concave to allow expansion with each step like the arch in your foot. Minis don't have as much weight so everything in the hoof is "not so much". I learned through trial and error/lots of error with vets and farriers. www.barefoothorse.com. Someone sold a nice Pete Ramey book for horse owners on the little horse barn auction for the chapman's and that book is wonderful if someone wants to learn how to read a hoof and trim their own. I lied I went back to read and believe me not just the frog *pumps* the blood through the hoof tissue, the whole hoof does! I am still trying ot bring the long heel down on one of my mares, and I give leeway with the minis because they have heel height in proportion to what regular horses do. But heels need to be at or close to the frog and bulb. NOT an inch or so.

I trimmed to normal 3 miniatures that had foundered so says the previous owners. Even if they had, a normal trim is what they still need. It has nothing to do with properly trimming their hooves. I had help with my foals hooves from kind members here, and a master farrer turned barefoot trimmer that I still very much appreciate.

She does have nice hooves even overgrown. Ditto what Tremor posted 100% and every single mini (except the ones I bought from Susan O) were not only overgrown but flared so bad with so much thrush and filth I can't even describe it. Most mini owners I have come across in this area don't give them any care at all. Makes me so angry.


----------



## Marty (Aug 27, 2012)

These feet don't even look like they've been trimmed in many months at all. When a frog is lost like that it is more than likely due to thrush. Get some Thrushbuster or some kind of thrush medicine and start putting it in that area daily. I also feel your pain about not having a lot of good farriers in your area. The farriers in my neck of the woods are a joke and I cannot use them.I'm all about "cheap: and cutting corners where I can but not at the expense of my horse's welfare. You have a problem that needs to be corrected by a knowledgable farrier which you do not have. Spend the money now before this comes back and hits you in the wallet tens times as bad. Do not throw good money after bad and try to make do;. That's like getting run over by the same train twice. My farrier drives 2 hours to get to me and I do pay a trip charge. Her services are well worth it. I suggest you look in another area and bring in a knowledgable farrier and bite the bullet and pay the higher fee. Do not attempt to rasp these feet yourself. Again, look out of your area by a simple google seach and bring someone in that is worth it. You can also call some professional stables with a great reputation and ask them who they use. Best wishes to you and your horse for complete success!.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

Tremor said:


> I wanted to make a couple notes.
> 
> Just because a vet is predominantly a cattle/pig/sheep vet they have to know something about horses. I think you're underestimating your vet.
> 
> ...


I am honestly not underestimating our vets! They don't have enough experience with horses. We have tried to get their opinion on some horse things and it's either "I don't know" or some common sense reason. We have been working on her standing better for the farrier and touching her feet more, so hopefully the next trim will be better! We are having the farrier out very soon though. We have an equine vet but he said he can't do much with minis, so that's the kind of luck we have here. I will post pics when she gets her feet done!



Tremor said:


> I wanted to make a couple notes.
> 
> Just because a vet is predominantly a cattle/pig/sheep vet they have to know something about horses. I think you're underestimating your vet.
> 
> ...


I am honestly not underestimating our vets! They don't have enough experience with horses. We have tried to get their opinion on some horse things and it's either "I don't know" or some common sense reason. We have been working on her standing better for the farrier and touching her feet more, so hopefully the next trim will be better! We are having the farrier out very soon though. We have an equine vet but he said he can't do much with minis, so that's the kind of luck we have here. I will post pics when she gets her feet done!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

rubyviewminis said:


> Oh geez. Listen, I stopped reading the posts at the pictures. Those heels need to be closer to the widest part of the frog. She most defintely has a fungus going on in the frog and bulb, see the slit ? Waay too long. Her toes will probably need to be backed up with regular 4 to 5 week trims. Instead of giving you the whole history of my nightmare farriers and learning to trim barefoot I'll just try to help even if others think I don't know what I'm talking about.
> 
> Oh thank you for understanding!! Ha ha...so if you had to give me instructions on what to
> 
> ...


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

So if you had to give me advice on what needs to be done in the first trim, please explain what it should be? Should I be putting thrush medication on it or is it just due to her hoof being to long?


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

Should I be soaking her feet? I am totally blind on what I can do at this point except for getting her hooves trimmed! We have had a few people look at our other animals and our farrier does a beautiful job on them, it's only her that he doesn't do good on!!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

Should I be soaking her feet? I am totally blind on what I can do at this point except for getting her hooves trimmed! We have had a few people look at our other animals and our farrier does a beautiful job on them, it's only her that he doesn't do good on!!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

Also, what should I do about the fungus in her hooves??


----------



## shorthorsemom (Aug 27, 2012)

Pardon me... you are sweet, your farrier is incompetent. He shouldn't be trimming feet even for free. sorry.

I know personally what you are going through because I had the same problem when I used a bargain farrier and he began to ruin the feet of my guys. He was cheap, I was reluctant to change and I ended up finding a new guy and paying $35 per trim for over a year and finally have decent healthy feet. I will never do that again I am sooooo glad I made the change. Wish I could post before and after photos of my guys. The feet as pointed out by everybody are way long. Almost should be trimmed back to where they are lighter in color for healthy length. The feet are throwing "flares" to compensate for being overly long. They are angled totally wrong. If your farrier is not measuring angle (he can't be by the look of the feet), then he is trimming wrong. The foot response to the wrong angle and too long of toe and too high on heel is why your horses feet look hollow. The frog will grow back. I suggest spraying the feet with some dilute lysol solution for now to clean up any bacteria and to clean up thrush if you have it. If this incompetent farrier starts chopping back hoof he could make your baby sore. My bargain farrier did just that... I mentioned how worried I was about the length angles and high heels... he chopped way back and my guys were sore for 2 months afterward. That was the straw that broke the camels back. If your baby gets much longer, you run the risk of opening up the white line and having a major hoof infection (gravel)... shop shop shop... find a new farrier. Must bring the feet back correct slowly. Best wishes! Hope you get some help. I wish I could send you my guy... good farriers are worth their weight in gold, small increments in hoof angle can translate to way off in the legs. Mini hooves are much more important to get the right angles. google pete Ramey.. lysol hoof... I just make it up very dilute and spray it on, works wonders.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 27, 2012)

Oh my gosh!!! I didn't realize how bad it was!! Thank you guys so much for giving me this advice!! I am going to get some of that spray and use it on her!!


----------



## Jean_B (Aug 27, 2012)

It sounds like you are still trying to find a 'cheap' solution by spraying something in her feet or wanting to rasp them yourself. But honestly - you are doing your mare a HUGE dis-service by not listening to well over 200 years worth of combined experience that are all saying GET A NEW FARRIER. A few trims at $35 or $40 could save you from a horse that goes DOWN because her feet are so bad. No frog - means that she will eventually go lame, not be willing to get to her feet because of the pain. Suck it up and find a new farrier, even if you have to put her on a trailer and haul her 50 miles...or more.

I fired 4 different farriers after I moved to Arkansas to an area that is considered 'horse country'. And finally found one that is worth his weight in gold. He drives 50 miles one way to get to my house so I pay him a a huge tip just for gas money. And it is worth EVERY penny. And yes, back in the day when I had 30 head - he came here every 7 weeks and did 2/3 of the herd.....so I was shelling out HUNDREDS of dollars every month...and was happy to do it. (and at my job, I work for a fraction of what I made when I was up north)

There is a right way to do this....please don't delay in getting a new (and well-recommended) farrier. There are lots of people in northern Minnesota with horses. Contact members of the Minnesota Miniature Horse Club (they have a website) and see who they might recommend.


----------



## Tremor (Aug 27, 2012)

Jean B,

Im glad I wasn't the only one who thought that the OP was looking for the cheapest route and taking this lightly.

I was worried I was being a judgmental hag. lol.


----------



## mydaddysjag (Aug 28, 2012)

Theres no amount of spray thats going to fix that mess. This isnt just your farrier letting the feet a tad long, they are way, way, overgrown. They look like they havent been touched in months. The farrier you have cant fix this. This is physically painful to the horse. It causes stress on the coffin bone, stress on the joints, has the legs crooked which is probably painful, not to mention ruining her conformation. There are some things you can be a bargain shopper with, and some you need to suck it up and pay what its worth. $8 a trim is unbeievable, I thought the $25 I pay per horse was cheap (and I have several). The farrier probably charges that price because no one would hire them at the "normal" rate in the area.

Her frogs arent going to be fixable until a compident farrier comes out and fixes the mess the current guy made. They need trimmed so that her frogs are close to the ground to promote circulation and manure doesnt pack in them, and then they will grow.

Im all for saving a buck, but not at the expence of their health and well being.


----------



## countrymini (Aug 28, 2012)

Ouch, looks bad. Its a wonder it hasn't flared worse than it has with that height on those toes. Good on you for asking for advice, with all these experienced responses you should be able to make a good start on her recovery. Good luck


----------



## shorthorsemom (Aug 28, 2012)

The spray will help with the bacteria. Pete ramey recommends dilute lysol.. you can also soak. A new farrier is needed everybody agrees. Goodness knows everybody is trying to save money these days... she put out her story...she included photos..she asked for help... how about posting some normal feet photos for her to view.. it took me a couple of hard knocks to let go of my bargain farrier too.. when he lamed my horses he was fired..in reality he should have been fired long before it got to that... those feet are going to cause major problems.. I used the dilute lysol several times a day on my guys.. really helped for a starter...I cant post photos I have some I sent my new farrier by Internet and he was concerened enouh to make an emergency call for my guys.....my ex farrier did lots of big horses...seemed to have experience...but really didn't have a clue how to trim minks where small increments of change in the hoof can really skew the legs... education is the key...my new guy spelled it all out for me..the old guy told me I was wrong to worry... take care..hope you find help soon..the bigger bucks on a good farrier are cheaper than a vet..if the hoof sole recedes much more you can get into bone...infections in the white line take forever to grow out...trust me I know...


----------



## HGFarm (Aug 28, 2012)

Her feet look way too long to me and appear they need a severe trimming! They also appear out of balance to me. Is the farrier dubbing her toes for a reason? If you look at the actual profile angle of her hooves, it is not in line with the angle of her pastern, and it appears her toe is being chopped off to try to make up for that. It also appears that her outside might be longer than her inside- hard to tell from the pics- but this would cause her to toe out even more than she does naturally. I would find a farrier that can get her straightened out and trim her correctly.


----------



## ohmt (Aug 28, 2012)

Will you pm me with your location? I had no idea you were in MN. We are 30 min from the MN border here. If you are close enough, I could maybe stop by. I also trim my horse's feet. I am far from an expert, but I can do a decent trim amd possibly get her back on track until a good farrier is found.

Tremor-that was not nice and I sincerely hope this person still comes back to ask questions.


----------



## LittleBittyBritches (Aug 28, 2012)

ohmt said:


> Will you pm me with your location? I had no idea you were in MN. We are 30 min from the MN border here. If you are close enough, I could maybe stop by. I also trim my horse's feet. I am far from an expert, but I can do a decent trim amd possibly get her back on track until a good farrier is found.
> 
> Tremor-that was not nice and I sincerely hope this person still comes back to ask questions.


I just wanted to say ohmt- that is a really nice gesture.


----------



## rubyviewminis (Aug 28, 2012)

Yes and I have sites you can look up competent trimmers in your area or close. You have had lots of GOOD information and some not so good. Lysol dilute spray would certainly help any itch or sting until something is done. the sole doesn't recede, but the coffin bone (P3) can sink. Overgrown hooves will always snub if they strong enough and don't break off from the horses natural way of break over, trying to move, they will flare, wear out of balance of course and do all sorts of things from being long, sort of like wearing one side of your shoe heel more than the other, her movement is not normal until her hooves are properly trimmed. And "depending" she will probably be able to have all of that excess taken off, at least to the sole wherever it is now.

I think she put herself out there to get help, we all try to save money and we have no idea her circumstances and it's none of our business. We should just give her the best advice and information and direct her as to where to go for local help if possible. She has no idea what she is facing and is trying to do right by her horses, trying to learn it looks like to me. I remember trying to frantically find anyone to help me with hooves on not only my foal but the adult horses. I had just moved here and No Where could I find anyone competent! We paid too many *vets* and *farriers* to do a terrible job and give terrible advice. It took people on here, on my clubsite, and 4 years to find someone to come here to teach me, and to learn how to trim all our horses. Yes, many veterinarians have absolutely no idea about hoof trimming or shoeing, or miniature horse health which I still find hard to believe. But I have one here who started learning


----------



## horsehug (Aug 28, 2012)

Ohmt, I am so glad you offered also.



I bet you could help her a lot. Like you, I have never had formal training and am sure would not be considered an expert, but have done all my own hooves with a herd of at least 25 for 23 years, since a true horseman/rancher in my area taught me how 23 years ago. He came over when I had my first 7 minis and I watched him closely and I have done them ever since, and also for other people too...... some even that needed lots of work. I hope you can get together with her if she is not too far away.



If she is, it was still a very nice gesture like LittleBittyBritches said.

Susan O.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 29, 2012)

The only reason I was going to use spray was to get rid of the bacteria and I plan to get her better farrier services! I am in international falls!!!

Thank you for all of your advice but please don't leave negative posts about me!



thanks!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 29, 2012)

rubyviewminis said:


> Yes and I have sites you can look up competent trimmers in your area or close. You have had lots of GOOD information and some not so good. Lysol dilute spray would certainly help any itch or sting until something is done. the sole doesn't recede, but the coffin bone (P3) can sink. Overgrown hooves will always snub if they strong enough and don't break off from the horses natural way of break over, trying to move, they will flare, wear out of balance of course and do all sorts of things from being long, sort of like wearing one side of your shoe heel more than the other, her movement is not normal until her hooves are properly trimmed. And "depending" she will probably be able to have all of that excess taken off, at least to the sole wherever it is now.
> 
> I think she put herself out there to get help, we all try to save money and we have no idea her circumstances and it's none of our business. We should just give her the best advice and information and direct her as to where to go for local help if possible. She has no idea what she is facing and is trying to do right by her horses, trying to learn it looks like to me. I remember trying to frantically find anyone to help me with hooves on not only my foal but the adult horses. I had just moved here and No Where could I find anyone competent! We paid too many *vets* and *farriers* to do a terrible job and give terrible advice. It took people on here, on my clubsite, and 4 years to find someone to come here to teach me, and to learn how to trim all our horses. Yes, many veterinarians have absolutely no idea about hoof trimming or shoeing, or miniature horse health which I still find hard to believe. But I have one here who started learning


Yes!!!!! Thank you!!!!! I really do not want to explain my personal life, all I wanted was advice. I will do the best I can with all of the good advice I got and I will keep you updated! But, yes some pictures of some mini feet that are correct would be just SUPER!!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 29, 2012)

Ohmt, where are you located?


----------



## ohmt (Aug 29, 2012)

I am currently living in Fargo, ND (go to college here). Looks like you're about 5 hrs from me. If you have trouble finding someone, please please feel free to pm me and I'll give you my number



And keep me updated or I'll worry lol

Everyone needs help sometimes and I have received so much in this industry. I owe it to others to pay it forward.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 29, 2012)

Oh ha ha yeah that's a bit of a drive for you. Lol. Especially with gas these days! Could you send pictures of one of your minis feet that are correct? That would be great!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 29, 2012)

Do you originally live somewhere closer to me? Because if you live somewhere closer and you go to visit, maybe you could swing up here!

Do you originally live somewhere closer to me? Because if you live somewhere closer and you go to visit, maybe you could swing up here!


----------



## ohmt (Aug 29, 2012)

Quite the drive, but I would be willing to do it if you can't find someone. I have always wanted to visit International Falls actually, so maybe I could take a little vacation



The farm is a little over an hour SW of here, so a bit further from you.

I would suggest watching/reading as much as you can about hoof trimming. That way, finding a great farrier won't be quite a chore and it's always good to know how it's done in case of an emergency and just to understand your horse a little bit better. I like Barefoot Trimming methods, myself.

I kind of like this guy:


I did not listen to this video at all-but it gives a wonderful picture of a very healthy, good looking hoof:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BIs-AZZJmP0&feature=fvwrel


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 29, 2012)

Oh ok, yes it is beautiful up here in the Falls!! If you like the outdoors it is wonderful! There isn't much for shopping but there r a few pretty neat stores to shop in! Also, Canada has some awesome fishing. Yeah it would be wonderful if you could come up here but I will watch the videos and see what I think!


----------



## JAX (Aug 29, 2012)

Not sure if this would help you but thought maybe you could find a new trimmer here... http://www.thehorseshoof.com/trimmers_MN.html#Minnesota

If not then I bet some of them would at least know of another farrier they would refer you to.


----------



## Lewella (Aug 29, 2012)

Contact Nora at Black Birch Tack (www.blackbirchranch.com) in Embarrass. She has an excellent farrier for her ponies and horses and might know someone a little closer to you.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 29, 2012)

Oh ok...I will look into both of those!! Thank you so much!! It would have to be someone more than an hour away because we live in te sticks and we have already contacted everyone at least about 45 minutes away!


----------



## rubyviewminis (Aug 30, 2012)

Nora is very good if she is the same Nora I know and she has helped a lot of people. www.barefoothorse.com and Pete Ramey who is one of the pioneers of barefoot trimming is www.hoofrehab.com. He has a listing of trimmers, also lots of articles and pictures. BUT at first he will be too hard to understand which is why he wrote a nice uncomplicated short book for horse owners. I use that book all the time still, because if you don't trim 10 horses a day you don't get the experience. You could probably google more.

If you understand what your minis need and how their hooves should look you can then judge your farriers and know what they are doing with your horses.


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 30, 2012)

I watched the YouTube videos and they were super helpful! Our farrier is coming tomorrow and we are going to show him the videos that were posted here!! Thankyou so much! I will look into those new farrier websites and see what I can find!


----------



## kay56649 (Aug 31, 2012)

I will post pictures of her hooves after being cut today!!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 1, 2012)

So he cut her hooves today and they look wonderful!! He cut them to the bloodline and made her stand up better on them!! Yay!! I will post pics of them tomorrow since it is so late here. I just got back from out of town and went and checked her feet!!


----------



## chandab (Sep 1, 2012)

Can't wait to see the new pics.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 1, 2012)

Yeah I will go out, take some pics, and post them for y'all to see!!


----------



## PaintMeFancy (Sep 2, 2012)

I was going to post about the feet and trimming with new farrier - this thread was forever long ... but it seems like you got that taken care of - looking forward to new pics

I have seen some hollow feet and a lot of times they have upright feet/toes so the farrier (if not fully competent) doesn't think the toe needs to come off as they don't "see" the excess like an experienced farrier with knowledge does. I pay $45 for a trim here - consider it lucky you are under that



I will start to keep my mini done myself so she doesn't get too long and call out my farrier when needed...

Without hoofs you have no horse... To me they are one of the most important things on a horse - you have to take care off all 4 as without even a partial one - your horse is "useless" (lack of better term)


----------



## Lizzie (Sep 2, 2012)

I'm so glad you found a reliable and knowledgeable farrier for this little girl. This especially, since I know you also offer riding lessons on this Mini. I remember on the other huge forum message thread, her feet were a bit long. Not as long as they are now, but obviously needing some quality work. If you look on many Mini websites, where it shows winners and/or Minis in show condition on flat ground, you can save the pics, blow them up and see how Mini hoofs should look. I don't think we can blame all farriers. Many have never worked on Minis or even huge Draft horse feet. Is really is up to the owner, to show them pics if possible and educate them.

I have always thought it an extremely hard job to be a farrier. I wonder sometimes, if a small ramp to something higher (such as a goat milking ramp and stand) might not make it easier for farriers to work on Minis.

Lizzie


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 3, 2012)

sorry for the long wait on the pictures, it has been so busy around here and not enough down time to get them on the computer! But here are her new feet from the same farrier that made them look horrible! We just explained what we wanted, and he said sure and they look alot better than they did! Tell me what you think! He cut them down to the bloodline, but did not get any blood (thank God)!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 3, 2012)

Here are her feet!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 3, 2012)

Here are the before and after pictures! The first one is before and the second one is after!


----------



## Renolizzie (Sep 3, 2012)

What a difference.


----------



## chandab (Sep 3, 2012)

Much better on length. Looks like a little more heel will need to come off, especially on the one closest to the camera in the pics, but that will take a little time to correct. [Might just be my persception based on just this one photo, but definitely a better length.]


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 3, 2012)

Is it a good difference? Is there anything that should be done still? Should we do one more short trim to correct it or are they good now?


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 3, 2012)

Ok, we will try to fix that on the next trim! See our farrier knows how to cut feet right, but he doesn't unless you tell him you want them better. The same thing happened with our big horses, we just said we want you to leave more heel on and now they are beautiful. It's weird but it apparently works ok. Ha ha


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 3, 2012)

Well I guess we can stick to our $8 farrier!! He seemed to

do a very nice job this time!


----------



## chandab (Sep 3, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> Ok, we will try to fix that on the next trim! See our farrier knows how to cut feet right, but he doesn't unless you tell him you want them better. The same thing happened with our big horses, we just said we want you to leave more heel on and now they are beautiful. It's weird but it apparently works ok. Ha ha


Well, that's kind of scary; if he knows how, but doesn't do the right trim for the horse, unless the owner tells him to. But, glad you got things going in the right direction for your mini. At least he'll listen to you.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 3, 2012)

Ha ha I guess, we were afraid to say anything but he gladly and happily said sure and made them as best he could on the first trim! Weird situation but if it works, $8 is a lot better than $45 for a trim!




thanks for your help! I just thought she had hollow hooves, I thought they looked long but our farrier said she just had weird feet. Ha ha...I wouldn't have thought they were super overgrown!


----------



## rubyviewminis (Sep 3, 2012)

I'll keep my mouth shut, but could you take bottom pictures we could see?


----------



## Jean_B (Sep 3, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> Is it a good difference? Is there anything that should be done still? Should we do one more short trim to correct it or are they good now?


No, in my opinion it is a VERY poor trim. The heel needs to come WAY WAY WAY WAY down. She should not look like she is standing on a beer can. Look at the angle of her pastern. It is at approximately at a 45 degree angle to the ground. That slope should be a smooth, continuous line along the top of her hoof until the very toe. As you can see, the hoof is almost at right angles to the ground! This will put an INCREDIBLE amount of pressure on her knees and become very painful, which could eventually cripple her. And to compound and make matters worse, he has two completely different angles on those feet. In my opinion he should NOT be allowed a 3rd chance.

Take a look at this and compare - the trim on your mare is far worse than in example B:


----------



## Minimor (Sep 3, 2012)

Jean is right--it is a very poor trim. The one foot looks pretty good as far as angle, but the foot closest to the camera is horribly steep. This incorrect angle will affect her movement and it could very well make her sore because it puts tremendous pressure on bones and ligaments. You need to get this fixed immediately--not 'next time' the farrier comes out for routine trimming.

A good farrier doesn't need to be told how to trim--he doesn't need to be told to correct angles after he trims...or while he is trimming. A good farrier knows what a proper trim looks like; he will check angles and make sure that they are correct. He will make sure the foot is trimmed level, and he will know what the proper hoof length looks like.

I grant you that paying $45 doesn't ensure that you will get a good farrier--locally I know some poor farriers that charge top dollar, and I would not allow them to trim my horses. However, the $8 your guy charges is no bargain when he can't do better than this!


----------



## PaintMeFancy (Sep 3, 2012)

They still look too long/upright to me - maybe she is partially club footed? It is easier to see with them held up at angles and then from beneath -

could be the photo - but the angles of each foot look completely different - need to be more symmetrical if they are not. She also seems to have a dish in the hoof which means the toe needs to be brought back in as well

Changes can't be made usually all at once and takes many trims for corrective work - usually I have found frequent trims (4 weeks) to gradually make changes is best - but definitely better then the first set of photos you posted

The heels are hard to tell if they are long - did he trim off heels? It appeared that some was gone, but can't tell from your photo. My guess is there is a frog in there where the hoof belongs

It still makes me very nervous to have a farrier who doesn't know how to properly correct a hoof trimming any of my horses


----------



## Lizzie (Sep 3, 2012)

I'm confused now. Is your farrier licensed by any of the farrier licensing bodies, such as the AFA etc? You said at first, he was doing a great job with your large horses, but just not the Mini. Then you said later, he only did a good job with the large horses, when you told him how to do it. Seems to me, that even if he'd never worked on Minis, he should at least have a reasonable client base of those with the usual light horse breeds.

Since you say he's a family friend, I'm sure it is difficult to replace him, but I don't think he's been doing you any favours.

Lizzie


----------



## disneyhorse (Sep 3, 2012)

Hello... Just saw this... The feet look just as bad, only shorter. I'd still recommend a new farrier. Over time this can cause a lot of damage. A lame horse isn't worth a bargain basement farrier...


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 4, 2012)

The feet are obviously not perfect yet, he just took off all of the hoof until he hit the bloodline. At the next trim he will fix up what he needs to, because the blood will have gone back. I will show him the picture you posted for sure, but for now this is all that could be done by any farrier. You have to gradually bring back a long hoof, you can't do it all in one trim. In my opinion, they are much better than they were compared to some show minis I have looked at. We are still working on it. I will post more pictures next time she gets them cut!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 4, 2012)

I don't know if he is licenced or not. He now does a good job on our big horses after we told him what we wanted. He was cutting the heel off so it didn't crack, but we had him leave more heel. This is the best we could do for now because we hit the bloodline all of the way around the hoof. I will post pictures of the underneath of her hooves soon!


----------



## Minimor (Sep 4, 2012)

There is no excuse for trimming a foot at such an incorrect angle, as the one is in that photo! i would say her angles were better before the trim, when her feet were so over long. He should have trimmed them to the correct angle rather than just chop them off as short as he could all around!


----------



## Tremor (Sep 4, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> I don't know if he is licenced or not. He now does a good job on our big horses after we told him what we wanted. He was cutting the heel off so it didn't crack, but we had him leave more heel. This is the best we could do for now because we hit the bloodline all of the way around the hoof. I will post pictures of the underneath of her hooves soon!


I find this infuriating. Your farrier (or any farrier for that matter) should not just do a good job when the customer asks him/her to do so. He/She ought to be doing that animal justice with EACH and EVERY trim.

Some people ought not to work with helpless, living creatures for a living. (Farriers, not you.)

NOTE: For those of you who believe that I am being harsh; I find any mention of this worthless farrier insulting to individual who aspires to become a farrier (like a myself) or any decent farrier who has worked their butt off to become a competent horseman/woman. I can and will voice that opinion. I am entitled to it. If you don't like then don't read my posts. I look through my local craigslist and see TOO many miniatures with no hoof care to the point where their hooves are curling or they're walking on their hoof bulbs; and I have been working too hard with my own herd to not become frustrated with people like that. By brain explodes and my heart aches for each and every horse.


----------



## chandab (Sep 4, 2012)

Lizzie said:


> Since you say he's a family friend, I'm sure it is difficult to replace him, but I don't think he's been doing you any favours.


i find this part interesting, because... A month or so ago, I was talking with my farrier about a friend of mine who is behind on farrier work due to her farrier being injured and there not being many to choose from around here (mine isn't taking on new clients). I commented about maybe helping her out, as I trim some of my own, so could probably trim some of hers to help her out. My farrier asked me "Do you want to be her friend or be her farrier?" He commented that doing both often isn't feasible.


----------



## chandab (Sep 4, 2012)

Tremor said:


> I find this infuriating. Your farrier (or any farrier for that matter) should not just do a good job when the customer asks him/her to do so. He/She ought to be doing that animal justice with EACH and EVERY trim.
> 
> Some people ought not to work with helpless, living creatures for a living. (Farriers, not you.)
> 
> NOTE: For those of you who believe that I am being harsh; I find any mention of this worthless farrier insulting to individual who aspires to become a farrier (like a myself) or any decent farrier who has worked their butt off to become a competent horseman/woman. I can and will voice that opinion. I am entitled to it. If you don't like then don't read my posts. I look through my local craigslist and see TOO many miniatures with no hoof care to the point where their hooves are curling or they're walking on their hoof bulbs; and I have been working too hard with my own herd to not become frustrated with people like that. By brain explodes and my heart aches for each and every horse.


My former vet (he's now retired) once told me; there are horseshoers, and then, there are farriers. [Most of the meaning of the phrase is in the tone. He was implying, by tone... Horseshoers are just there to pick-up a pay check. Farriers are there for the best interests of the horse.]

I've been through many horseshoers in my time of horse ownership, but only had a few farriers. Have one of the best now, and hope he doesn't retire any time soon. [i do trim a few of my own, just the normal ones; he trims the special needs horses and also the saddle horses (I can't get the nippers through their hooves).]


----------



## Tremor (Sep 4, 2012)

chandab said:


> My former vet (he's now retired) once told me; there are horseshoers, and then, there are farriers. [Most of the meaning of the phrase is in the tone. He was implying, by tone... Horseshoers are just there to pick-up a pay check. Farriers are there for the best interests of the horse.]
> 
> I've been through many horseshoers in my time of horse ownership, but only had a few farriers. Have one of the best now, and hope he doesn't retire any time soon. [i do trim a few of my own, just the normal ones; he trims the special needs horses and also the saddle horses (I can't get the nippers through their hooves).]


I think we can add trimmers to that list as well. I would classify this "farrier" as a trimmer.


----------



## ohmt (Sep 4, 2012)

There is a way to teach and a way to scold. Some seem much better at the latter....or maybe confuse the two.

Sweetie, you do really need a new farrier. I understand as well as anyone the need to reduce cost, but in this case you need to think about how much you will need to spend to have him keep coming out to fix his own mistakes and most likely for vet care when he keeps doing what he's doing. In the long run, spending a little more on a good farrier will save you. Don't get too frustrated with some of the comments. They are just trying to help, I promise.

I got your pm and will respond in the morning


----------



## Tremor (Sep 4, 2012)

ohmt said:


> There is a way to teach and a way to scold. Some seem much better at the latter....or maybe confuse the two.


Maybe I must explain myself for my manner of communicating? I firmly believe that people don't learn by being coddled. I don't learn that way. I need the information bluntly and in my face. I learned that way and I am a very critical person that way with my own herd. Being critical is necessary.

The fact that the OP (no offense..) has acted nonchalantly throughout the thread, told her farrier NOT to trim the heels down, and even wants to keep the $8 "farrier" just proves my point. This behavior will not be changed through coddling; which is what happened before the trim and she still refused to trim the heels down when we told her they were too tall.

OP: For your minis and horses' sake you need to drop this "farrier" and look for a farrier worth their weight in gold. I would bet my paycheck that you could find one. You also need to educate yourself on this matter. Buy some books, buy some DVDs, take some classes, etc. Every owner should. Hooves are not to be taken lightly, nor are weight issues, or teeth maintenance.

EDUCATE, EDUCATE, EDUCATE. (This ought to be my motto...and America's. Lord knows our generations are lacking.)


----------



## ohmt (Sep 4, 2012)

I actually did not read your post Tremor and after reading the first sentence of this new one, will continue to skip over them.

Oh, did see the educate part though. I wish you lots of luck with your teaching methods.


----------



## PaintMeFancy (Sep 4, 2012)

I am just curious why ask for advice when you will only defend what is being done?

Your mini is suffering... and while it needs to be done gradually it NEEDS to be done by someone who knows what they are doing. If these toes were taken back to blood line my guess is she is now sore and they are too short in the toe... Are you aware that one bad trim can permanently lame a horse and cause death? Happened to a friend of mine, her gelding was trimmed by a "farrier" who trimmed the gelding wrong (short among other things) even after given directions on what to do. The horse was so sore he went off food. It wasn't long before the vet had to put him down. No favors to owners or horses are done by someone without proper hoof knowledge.

No client should have to explain to a farrier what to do with a horse's hoof - unless it was directions from a vet, but then it should be communicated between the two to ensure no miss-communications happen.This farrier I would assume knows nothing about angles and only knows the basics of taking off toe, heel, etc

Farriers do not have to go to school, I have had some excellent self taught (internships, etc) - and ones that have gone to school who don't know a thing!

If you need to save money - why not learn how to trim feet yourself. You can learn about angles, proper length, etc


----------



## happy appy (Sep 4, 2012)

If you are telling your farrier what to do then your horse might be better off having you file her feet every few days until it gets to be a better angle. At this point you can't do a worse job then the "farrier".


----------



## shorthorsemom (Sep 4, 2012)

Hi again... bless you for posting to the forum so we can all learn together. Don't get frustrated by some of the comments, you can read deep down into most of them someone that has probably had some issues with past farriers that haunts them... I do believe anybody in horses has had problems somewhere along the line with a farrier and a good farrier is worth their weight in gold. First off I will say, it is rare that any farrier can correct a bad problem over night, so the perfect feet may well be 6 months into the future. It took my horses quite some time to get the angles where I felt they should be on my guys with my new farrier. My new farrier uses a measuring tool for angle and he has educated me quite a bit on foot trimming. I also read everything I can. I found an article that has cartoon drawings of feet complete with angles shown and then for the life of me, I can't seem to find it now to past it here. sorry... If the forum would judge me on computer savy I would get a D minus. LOL. Anyway... hang in there.. will go back to search for that darn article. found it...hope this link works... best wishes http://www.equipodia...om/hoofangl.htm ps you can buy a hoof gauge on ebay to measure angle. after my old farrier messed up my boys.. I took lots of photos of the feet , sometimes I think you can see better from some photos because you can print the photo, take a ruler and measure the angles and look to see where you are. Beware, chopping and lowering and making drastic changes at this point when you say you are already close to the blood line may cause lameness. I had my old farrier make a change on my boys and they both went lame for several weeks. He made too drastic of a change all at once after I showed him photos and requested a change. It was a horrible experience. Feel free to Pm me off the forum, we could exchange emails and I can probably find some photos to send you if that would help you. take care.


----------



## Tremor (Sep 4, 2012)

ohmt said:


> I actually did not read your post Tremor and after reading the first sentence of this new one, will continue to skip over them.
> 
> *Oh, did see the educate part though. I wish you lots of luck with your teaching methods.*


And that is why you ought to read the entire post. I was not talking about my own teaching methods then, but as a horse owner the OP (and anybody) ought to research and EDUCATE themselves.

But feel free to read what you like and take it out of context.


----------



## ohmt (Sep 4, 2012)

Hmmm...

Not sure where all of your anger is coming from, Tremor. Have a great day.


----------



## rubyviewminis (Sep 4, 2012)

Kay I am back. I hope you continue reading and take the good advice, it is given with a lot of care and experience.

In reality there is no "bloodline" like a dog or cat claw that would bleed and be sore if you nipped short and it bled, just like a hangnail. Your pretty little mare is so long that she has a lot of built up sole and wall that can come off still without harm. If the sole that is there now can be flaked off, (you could soak her in mud or water for an hour then dry her hooves and look, when completely dry with a hay net for distraction, plaques of extra sole would show they can be popped off) then she still has a lot to slough off. Her heels do need a Lot more off and it won't hurt her. She might be tender if her frogs are long and she isn't used to using them, or if she was trimmed more with too much off the toe *from underneath*. She could also get tender footed in the heel because it has been so long since she has used them properly that the inner structures are low in the hoof and weak. The toe can be backed up when the heel is taken down more. Then she will be on the way to normal, by keeping her heels every 4 to 5 weeks and her toe backed up and beveled some. When she is trimmed a little more that is when you have to stop and slowly each month do a little more and in 6 to 9 months she will look great. If she does get tender from the 3 reasons I gave, put her on sand or deep bedding in a small area, anything like that until she is not tender for a couple of weeks. Someone who knows how to trim correctly will know exactly how low she can be trimmed because certain landmarks and points on the bottom of the hoof will tell. They aren't all the same just like my fingernails are not like yours. It is very simple once you know what to look for.

He did just wack off level and left her with tin cans. If she is tender, it is because of the way she has to stand now. The tip of her coffin bone is pointing down more now than before, and it will degenerate, and is causing her tremendous pain unless someone can take her heels down and give her relief.

That happened to me with my minis around here so many times I gave up and taught myself. But I listened to advice, had knowledgeble people look at photos online, and read. If someone can show you, that would be wonderful. Even if you don't have to trim them yourself ever. Know what they are doing to your horses, its your money they are taking, and your horses depend on you.


----------



## PaintMeFancy (Sep 4, 2012)

*rubyviewminis** - now there was some solid advice - well put and fairly understandable *


----------



## Field-of-Dreams (Sep 4, 2012)

rubyviewminis said:


> In reality there is no "bloodline" like a dog or cat claw that would bleed and be sore if you nipped short and it bled, just like a hangnail.


No, but you CAN trim them too short and make them bleed because I HAVE done it. Not pretty and they were very, very sore.


----------



## rubyviewminis (Sep 4, 2012)

Of course, everyone knows that or should. My point if it wasn't clear was that she still has a lot of extra wall, sole and frog to come off. But if one knows how to read the collateral grooves, and tell the difference between hard packed slick sole and flaky dead sole you would not file or nip far enough to hit blood. And you can see the change in wall and white line tissue to pink starting.

But yes, you made a good point. Too many times my brain goes faster than these arthritic fingers on the keyboard and I don't explain clearly enough.

I really wish I lived closer to you Kay, I would be right there and I would also kick your trimmer's arse.


----------



## disneyhorse (Sep 4, 2012)

Good input, rubyviewminis...

I think a lot of people are just frustrated because advice was asked for, not taken, and now the poor horse has to suffer further because majority advice was ignored. We know that animals don't have a voice, and it's sad to see one in need not getting the proper help it deserves.

That said, I will reiterate that a new, knowledgeable farrier should attend to this little mare. The original farrier was clueless and has not corrected their work. We are told that "the big horses are just fine" but without evidence I'm strongly suspicious about the validity of that statement.

The health and well being of horses relies on knowledgable caregivers, from vet to farrier to owner. Any chinks in that chain can be disastrous. I feel bad for the horse(s) but a person cannot be forced to do the right thing if they're only hearing what they want to hear.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 4, 2012)

Here's the frusterating thing that most of you don't have the issue of. He is the ONLY farrier within a 1 hour range of us that will come out and do the feet!! We called the only good farrier in town and he wont come out because he is booked (because he is the only good one) so I know most of you don't want to hear this, but we are stuck with our farrier so just good advice and pictures of correct hooves is all I can use for advice because he is the only farrier we can get right now! We have been looking and there isn't any! Maybe I can do hers myself if I can learn, but for now he is our only hope I know this is unfortunate but it's true!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 4, 2012)

He has corrected the big horses feet and yes they are perfect! We have had a professional horseman that took 6 horses to the world show, a judge, and a pro horse trainer look at them. He just can't seem to get hers right! She is the only one we have been concerned about. I know your trying to help but it's not easy taking advice from people who are just telling me how terrible I am for making my mini suffer. Sorry but she is on the road to better feet and that's all that can be said at this point for her


----------



## valshingle (Sep 4, 2012)

Can you expand your radius to 2 hours or more? Does your vet or local feed store have anyone they recommend. My own mini farrier is about 1.5 hours away and he often travels several hours to trim other barns. Is there a Vet clinic that has a good farrier that comes to them? Maybe you can haul your mare somewhere to meet a farrier. Does your local mini club know of anyone? Are there other mini owners in your area, or within a few hours? Are there shows nearby that you can haul her to in order to meet a farrier?

Try to think outside of the box on this.

Good luck!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 4, 2012)

No our vet are kind of hillbillies and don't care much and don't do a lot with horses and don't know about farriers around town. It's super hard living here because we don't have reliable people for horses


----------



## PaintMeFancy (Sep 4, 2012)

Ok - not posting so I can talk crap -- but would be curious to see pics of your other horses' feet.. willing to post?

I understand not finding a good farrier - I went through 8!!!! before finding the guy I have now - my great farrier moved to PA when his wife graduated as a vet and got a new job - my one before that threw his back out - and while I am not a 100% on the new guy - he doesn't do anything IMO to harm the feet - or the horse - I just don't know if I would trust him with something complicated.

He is always educating himself though, learning at clinics, other farriers, etc - he is EXTREMELY knowledgeable and a perfectionist - but I think "talent" has some part of this (maybe physical skill is better term) -- and while I know he knows what he wants I don't think he always accomplishes it - he always comes back and fixes though (I have a complicated boy sometimes - my big one - LOTS of leg/hoof issues)


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 4, 2012)

He goes to clinics and stuff but we don't have 8 carriers to choose from. Yes I can post pics of my big horses feet next time we bring them in the barn!


----------



## Jean_B (Sep 4, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> He has corrected the big horses feet and yes they are perfect! We have had a professional horseman that took 6 horses to the world show, a judge, and a pro horse trainer look at them. He just can't seem to get hers right! She is the only one we have been concerned about. I know your trying to help but it's not easy taking advice from people who are just telling me how terrible I am for making my mini suffer. Sorry but she is on the road to better feet and that's all that can be said at this point for her


Sorry but must disagree. She is NOT on the road to better feet. If anything, they are worse. PLEASE if you aren't willing to have a farrier drive a couple hours to your place (mine does and he is worth it) then perhaps you should load her on a trailer and take her to someone who know what they are doing. Everyone here wants to see this horse stay healthy, including me. Please quit making excuses for this poor excuse of a trimmer - or for your circumstances - and do something positive. And I mean that with all sincerity. Animals are dependent on us for their well-being and if we can't do right by our animals........PLEASE look at the drawings that I posted again. And if you insist on having this idiot work on her feet again - at least show him what a good trim should look like, though I highly doubt given what he's done that he is educable.


----------



## FurstPlaceMiniatures (Sep 4, 2012)

Cow feet are anatomically the same as a horse - except they have 2 toes instead of one. From a side x ray, you could not tell a difference. Bones are even named the same thing.

Any vet will be capable. I promise. Guess what? Your "hillbilly" vet probably graduated from the same school as a vet in town. There are very few vet schools in the country. Honestly, if a vet has an education from the country you live in (US I assume), he/she is more than likely capable. I would look into a cattle hoof trimmer even before i would call that farrier back again. Has he ever even measured an angle? Did he graduate from any school? Im betting you're vet is a much better candidate.

However, will your vet tell you what you want to hear? No. Your farrier has not done a good job at all - as much as you defend him he has made your horse lame. Will your vet care as much about your horse as you do? No. They are there to make the animal better, not coddle, not spoil it, not train it, not protect your feelings. You learn a certain amount of disconnect when you are working with animals on a health basis. Does it ruin your day when one dies? O you bet it does! Do i cry at night over one? Occasionally, and definitely if its one of my own. Its YOUR job to care about your animal, its your vets job to make it better.

And to be blunt, your vet couldnt screw up your horse more than the farrier has.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 4, 2012)

Ok she is not lame. We will just get that straight. The closest farrier we can go to that is reliable is 3 hours away. I'm just as flustered as you are about her. Forget about us having a cheap farrier. That's ALL we have!! It's awful but we went out with that picture posted and we are going to show it to him next time he comes. If he stops coming, then a farrier stops coming because that's all we have!!!! All of the other farriers do the same or worse job than him!!! It's a super hard situation, but it's the way it is. All I can do is learn the proper way they need to be cut and show him the pictures!! I will for sure show him the one posted. I already have it saved. But she is NOT lame right now

We will call the vet tomorrow and see what she can do.


----------



## tagalong (Sep 5, 2012)

> All of the other farriers do the same or worse job than him!!!


_All of the other farriers??!! _Wait a minute - you said this guy was the ONLY one you could get out aside from the "real" one who is booked. I know you can BOOK AHEAD for an appointment with a "real" farrier!





The cheap guy you are using is NOT a decent farrier - not for $8, not for $80. There is _no_ excuse for him having left your mini mare's feet the way they were - or for you having to show him a picture for him to get the idea.

Book an appointment with the REAL farrier... or maybe he/she will not come out to you for whatever reason? Surely your mini mare is worth more than an $8 trim. What are the filly's feet like? Can you post pictures of them? If the mare's feet were that bad to start with, I am concerned that the filly will have rolled under heels etc.


----------



## shorthorsemom (Sep 5, 2012)

Oh dear..if she isn't lame I wouldn't feel the need to call the vet..never saw a vet that could trim feet. I hear your frustration. Are there any horse farms near you? What I did when I was desperate was to drive around to a few local stables and I posted on a local horse club forum that I needed a farrier. I got several names. My guy actually comes quite a distance (3 hrs) but since he does several local stables he just schedules my trims when he is in the area. I called one natural trimmer and she wanted $75 bucks to drive 45 minutes..no thanks. I pay $25 now.. I think one of the hardest things to do is find a decent farrier. You are doing your best. Proper hoof care is always a hot topic...gets everybodys blood stirred up...hope you continue to keep us posted... how about everybody that trims their own feed start posting some educational trimming material. My breeder and friend Kim is self taught trimmer of her own horses.. she does a great job. She learned from books and video. I am sure utube would have something too. Hang in there..I'm sure if I posted some progress photos of some of my horses feet when I was trying to get my old farrier to fix things I would have drawn lots of attention too. Good thing is your mare is still sound..my guys went lame and that is when things fell apart here. I read everything I can now, it will really help you to understand what people are telling you minus the mean comments... I will see what I can dig up for you. My dream is to some day trim my own horses, for now I am too chicken, but I do read everything so I won't get fooled by a farrier again should my guy leave the area and I find myself shopping again. Take care

You know what folks.. some of these postings aren't constructive and are just darn mean. No wonder some people just quit and don't come back. good grief!


----------



## shorthorsemom (Sep 5, 2012)

Ps I use a cattle trimmer frequently.. there is no way I would ask him to do my minis feet..good grief..no where near the same process as for trimming horses. Check out ebay for the tool to measure angle.. I want to get one for myself.. my one boy was different from one hoof to the other after my first "repair" trim..I thought it was how his foot grew..it wasn't..angle adjustment from new farrier fixed that. How are your ground conditions..wet? Dry? Is she on grass? Just curious. Ps when I say different I mean different angle..one hoof more upright than the other.. print your photo and draw the angles over the photo from hoof angle to pastern angle. Compare with photos in that link I sent from earlier post.. my ex farrier had no problems doing big horses..lots of satisfied customers. He almost ruined my guys feet and all my suggestions only seemed to make things worse. I even gave him diagrams and articles...then I gave him a "divorce" I truly regretted not changing sooner..and am glad I have awesome perfect feet now..


----------



## happy appy (Sep 5, 2012)

I know what you mean shorthorsemom. My current farrier does a great job on the large horses but a terrible job on the minis. Around here there is a trim called the pony trim and that's what he does on the minis. It leaves the foot a little to upright for my tastes. So in this case after months of trying to get him to take a little more heal, I gave up and do the minis myself now. I file them once a week to get the right angle and then about every 4 weeks. I don't use nippers, too afraid of cutting too much but I do file. I think I am getting the hang of it now. I want to get a foot rest so that it's easier and I can use both hands.


----------



## Lizzie (Sep 5, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> That's ALL we have!! It's awful but we went out with that picture posted and we are going to show it to him next time he comes. If he stops coming, then a farrier stops coming because that's all we have!!!! All of the other farriers do the same or worse job than him!!!


Kay. "All of the other farriers?" You said he was the only one. So there _are _other farriers. Have you tried others? If not, how do you know they do a worse job than the one you use? You say you show your large horses. If so, then surely you must know many others in your area, who own horses and have their own favourite farriers. Who knows, maybe some riders at the shows, also own Minis. You won't know unless you ask.

This is becoming rather like your post on the other forum. After over 700 posts when many extremely knowledgeable horse breeders tried to help you and answer your questions, you contradicted yourself constantly and actually disagreed with the help offered. At my suggestion, you then joined this forum, only to run down all those who had wasted their time trying to help you on The Horse Forum. I know you are very young but you must understand that horse owners are a very busy lot and most are not willing to coddle a 14 year old. All are willing to help but get a bit peeved, when advice is thrown back in their faces and excuses constantly made. I do understand completely, that all final decisions, are up to your parents. However, take all the advice given, do some research and if necessary, request of your parents that you trailer this mare to someone who knows what they are doing.

Lizzie


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

Tremor said:


> There is so much more you could do. You are limiting yourself. You are limiting the care for your animals as well. There is so much good advice here and you refuse to clean the wax out of your ears.
> 
> Here's a question; if you don't know basic hoof care then how do you know your mare Isn't lame?
> 
> ...


I have been around hundreds of horses and I know for a fact she is not lame!



If you think I don't care, please don't read my posts!!! If I didn't care, I wouldn't be on here and the only GOOD farrier won't take anymore people. Trust me we tried! The farrier we have is the best one except for the GOOD one. With the price of gas, we can't travel over 3 hours with gas being $3.99 today in our area! We have a one ton truck and a 3 horse steel trailer, so the gas gets spendy. We have to wait to get her more farrier care anyway because as of right now she is at her bloodline. We took the picture of the hooves posted and compared them to their hooves and we are going to show it to our farrier and what we want. We are doing the best we can at this point and willl continue to until she can get her hooves cut again!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

I asked about my mare's belly and I TOOK the advice and I am weaning her foal off of her and giving her supplement grain to help fill in her hips. We buy the best hay in town for our horses and have a heated barn. We have supplements and pay the money for the good neutrena grain. If we didn't care about our horses, our horses wouldn't have this kind of care.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

shorthorsemom said:


> Oh dear..if she isn't lame I wouldn't feel the need to call the vet..never saw a vet that could trim feet. I hear your frustration. Are there any horse farms near you? What I did when I was desperate was to drive around to a few local stables and I posted on a local horse club forum that I needed a farrier. I got several names. My guy actually comes quite a distance (3 hrs) but since he does several local stables he just schedules my trims when he is in the area. I called one natural trimmer and she wanted $75 bucks to drive 45 minutes..no thanks. I pay $25 now.. I think one of the hardest things to do is find a decent farrier. You are doing your best. Proper hoof care is always a hot topic...gets everybodys blood stirred up...hope you continue to keep us posted... how about everybody that trims their own feed start posting some educational trimming material. My breeder and friend Kim is self taught trimmer of her own horses.. she does a great job. She learned from books and video. I am sure utube would have something too. Hang in there..I'm sure if I posted some progress photos of some of my horses feet when I was trying to get my old farrier to fix things I would have drawn lots of attention too. Good thing is your mare is still sound..my guys went lame and that is when things fell apart here. I read everything I can now, it will really help you to understand what people are telling you minus the mean comments... I will see what I can dig up for you. My dream is to some day trim my own horses, for now I am too chicken, but I do read everything so I won't get fooled by a farrier again should my guy leave the area and I find myself shopping again. Take care
> 
> You know what folks.. some of these postings aren't constructive and are just darn mean. No wonder some people just quit and don't come back. good grief!


What a sigh of relief!! Someone knows what I'm talking about. We live in a redneck town of 5,000 and there are no stables around here. We are the only actual stable in our town unfortunatly We are searching far and wide at this point and I am going to try to learn to cut her feet myself. If you guys know so much about hoof care and how I am so wrong, then why don't you post some pictures of your minis feet so I can see what a good job you guys do! That's better than telling me I don't care about my animals!!!!!!

Our vet can't trim feet but it seems everyone thinks they can.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

happy appy said:


> I know what you mean shorthorsemom. My current farrier does a great job on the large horses but a terrible job on the minis. Around here there is a trim called the pony trim and that's what he does on the minis. It leaves the foot a little to upright for my tastes. So in this case after months of trying to get him to take a little more heal, I gave up and do the minis myself now. I file them once a week to get the right angle and then about every 4 weeks. I don't use nippers, too afraid of cutting too much but I do file. I think I am getting the hang of it now. I want to get a foot rest so that it's easier and I can use both hands.


That's what I'm trying to say. He does a great job on our big horses feet but apparently not good on the minis feet


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

Lizzie said:


> Kay. "All of the other farriers?" You said he was the only one. So there _are _other farriers. Have you tried others? If not, how do you know they do a worse job than the one you use? You say you show your large horses. If so, then surely you must know many others in your area, who own horses and have their own favourite farriers. Who knows, maybe some riders at the shows, also own Minis. You won't know unless you ask.
> 
> This is becoming rather like your post on the other forum. After over 700 posts when many extremely knowledgeable horse breeders tried to help you and answer your questions, you contradicted yourself constantly and actually disagreed with the help offered. At my suggestion, you then joined this forum, only to run down all those who had wasted their time trying to help you on The Horse Forum. I know you are very young but you must understand that horse owners are a very busy lot and most are not willing to coddle a 14 year old. All are willing to help but get a bit peeved, when advice is thrown back in their faces and excuses constantly made. I do understand completely, that all final decisions, are up to your parents. However, take all the advice given, do some research and if necessary, request of your parents that you trailer this mare to someone who knows what they are doing.
> 
> Lizzie


There are no other minis at our shows and only 2 other people in town have minis. In our town everybody knows everybody and I am not exaggerating or lying. Please don't refer to the horse forum, the thread was shut down because everybody was leaving awful comments on it. I am just trying to help my mini and I have taken all of your posts to heart and have tried everything you have posted. I can't succeed with all of them but I am trying all of them!!


----------



## Lizzie (Sep 5, 2012)

Please don't refer to the horse forum, the thread was shut down because everybody was leaving awful comments on it.

Absolutely and utterly untrue! Our administrator closed it down (and stated so) purely because she told you to start a new thread with baby pictures so that they wouldn't become buried within 74 pages and 733 posts, where people had tried to help you with your then pregnant Mini mare and foaling questions, which she felt had been answered fully.

Lizzie


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

I actually asked her what to about all of the rude and out of control comments and that's what she posted just to make it sound ok...I privately pm her and she said she was going to close it because it was out of hand. Plus, this is not a horse forum and I came her to learn about mini horses


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

By the way my foal is very healthy and happy and a wonderful little mini


----------



## Minimor (Sep 5, 2012)

kay56649 said:


> If you guys know so much about hoof care and how I am so wrong, then why don't you post some pictures of your minis feet so I can see what a good job you guys do


You know--I was thinking I could get some pix for you --before and after shots so you could see just how much a hoof can be improved in one trim...and yes, you really can make a huge difference with just one trim. (I once trimmed a horse whose feet had been badly neglected; his feet weren't just overgrown, one was badly twisted, and in one trim I had him standing up properly--and it held until the next trim. I do wish I had pix of that one but I didn't have a camera with me) but you know what? That post of yours that I quoted sounds distinctly snotty and quite frankly I have better things to do than waste my time taking some pictures to show to someone who prefers to argue and make excuses for everything she is told, and who doesn't sound as if she would appreciate it anyway. I am headed off to trim a horse for someone who will appreciate having her rescue horse's feet trimmed properly. This horse's feet are currently in worse shape than your mare's were and I guarantee when I'm finished they will look a lot better than your mare's do!

Your mare may not be lame but I can tell you for certain that she isn't moving properly on that stumpy foot! Perhaps you can't see it and will deny it, but I've seen horses trimmed that way before and I know how they moved because of it. With a foot so out of balance it is impossible for a horse to move properly. A friend recently sent a video of her gelding trotting and cantering. I asked her what is wrong with him, he solving terrible. I suggested that his feet weren't trimmed properly and she said they had just been done. Three weeks later she got a different farrier and he told her the angles were all off--she emailed and told me that I'd been right on--I'd identified the problem from that shirt video.


----------



## ohmt (Sep 5, 2012)

How very mature of you Minimor.

Quite frankly, I would be snotty too if I had the responses that this girl has. I am absolutely horrified by this thread.

This is my last post. Kay-please come to me for any help you may need. I pm'd you my number.


----------



## Minimor (Sep 5, 2012)

Sorry, but this whole thread is entirely pointless. Hopefully you can help her out Amanda. Best of luck to you both.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

Yes Amanda has been super helpful and for all of you who felt the need to post snotty posts, thank you for the info I dd get and I am fully aware that her feet aren't right and I said more than once that I am going to show our farrier the picture posted and see if he can do it! Thank you all for your helpful advice and I will post pics when they are corrected!


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

I dont get why you all want to post snotty posts but inn sorry for all of you who feel the need to! God bless you!


----------



## Minimor (Sep 5, 2012)

Look, no one was being snotty until you kept insisting that this farrier is so good--even then most were exasperated, not snotty! Just because we were truthful about how poor this last trim was doesn't make us snotty.

I can understand if you are frustrated over the lack of a good farrier as I have been there too. We had a good farrier years back but he retired and the ones that came along after we're not good at all. The only difference in my case I could go out and fix up whatever the farrier did wrong--and so I gave up on a farrier and started doing all of my own trimming. More work and harder on my back but it saved me some money and the horses then were trimmed properly. Never would I defend those farriers I tried and never would I say that they are good farriers!

Perhaps you are simply frustrated too but that post that I quoted earlier came off as one of the most snotty of all.

When you insist that a farrier is good when he so obviously isn't --well, most of us just don't feel much like offering any more info. I have tried before to teach people who have no real interest in learning --big difference between them and those who truly want to learn and are willing to listen and actually see what is being explained.


----------



## ohmt (Sep 5, 2012)

I will be going to Kayla's to trim this mare's feet hopefully sometime in the next couple of weeks.

Therefore, the reason this thread was posted has been resolved.

No more.


----------



## kay56649 (Sep 5, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> omht - you are sooo kind..
> 
> kay56649.. I hope you stay around.. there are a lot of kind people here that are willing to help.. please try to overlook some of the post here.


Thank you I might just look and not post but all I know is I am done with this thread since ohmt is coming to do her feet hopefully sometime soon!



thanks!


----------



## REO (Sep 5, 2012)

If you'd like this thread closed, I'll be glad to close it for you


----------

