# Need Picures of horses' hind legs with locking stifle.



## sls (Sep 29, 2009)

I have heard several people on the forum mention horses with straight stifle are more problematic to locking stifle and/or patella problems.

Does anyone have pictures that show the difference between horses with hind leg(s) that are too straight that causes Patella (locking stifle) versus horse legs that do not? I can not see the difference.






Much appreciated.


----------



## krissy3 (Sep 29, 2009)

sls said:


> I have heard several people on the forum mention horses with straight stifle are more problematic to locking stifle and/or patella problems.
> Does anyone have pictures that show the difference between horses with hind leg(s) that are too straight that causes Patella (locking stifle) versus horse legs that do not? I can not see the difference.
> 
> 
> ...



my horse has a slight flared toe that the vet thought was a patella issue. i can show you photos , but will have to send them via e-mail. please PM me with your address. I have some info on what to look for with UPF.


----------



## Minimor (Sep 29, 2009)

I can show you a photo of a horse with a very good stifle. This is our mare Scarlet--and I've posted this photo on here before--this is the best stifle I've ever seen on any Mini and I always say that if all Minis had a stifle like this, there wouldn't be a locking stifle problem in the breed!






Note the width and muscling this mare has in her stifle area; also note the angulation of her stifle.

If I had time I have a vet book with photos of good & bad stifles, and their photos show the angles--great reference for anyone that doesn't know what angles to look for....unfortunately I simply do not have the time just now to set up my scanner & get the page scanned in for you.


----------



## disneyhorse (Sep 29, 2009)

Okay these photos are not ideal, but they're what I have in Photobucket at the moment.

This yearling Shetland pony colt had locking stifle:






This yearling Shetland pony colt is now coming-three and so far, has not had his stifles lock (knock on wood!!!) The first colt, I sent right back to the breeder and did not ask for my money back. I personally will have nothing to do with a horse with locking stifles.






Let me post this, I will look at the pictures side-by-side here and see if I have anything to add...

Andrea


----------



## Shari (Sep 29, 2009)

They are finding in Icelandic's with Locking Stifles, that they are "camped out" to varying degrees. Would be interesting to find out if that is the same in the mini's.


----------



## minimule (Sep 29, 2009)

This is the only photo I have left of her but this filly had a locking stifle.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Sep 29, 2009)

You can see those with locking stifles are very straight in the stifle - it is not tragic although nothing I would want in a breeding animal. I had a large horse who had stifle surgery and went on for years to compete in west pleasure- hunter and was a great trail horse.


----------



## lilmiraclesfarm (Sep 29, 2009)

I don't know if this will help in what your looking for but I thought it was a different perspective. This is a 5 yr old mare with a pretty bad case of a locking stifle. The stifle is on the left side, which your seeing in the moving pictures. It comes and goes. Sometimes its minor other days it locks like crazy.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 30, 2009)

Nice animation, lilmiraclesfarm! Here's my chronic locker, who is finally free of the awful condition since surgery in March of last year. He was overweight in this early photo and the deep angle of his croup and pelvis fooled me for years into thinking he wasn't straight in the hindquarters.






What I didn't realize was that his discomfort caused him to contract his hindquarters and hunch up his lower back, making all the joints look steeper. Can you see how there's bands of muscle bulging vertically between the top two yellow lines in the photo below? Those shouldn't be like that.






Since his surgery he has relaxed all those contracted muscles and stands much, much straighter in the hind end. His pelvis is still very steep but it's more apparent now that the stifle is pretty straight. This photo was taken this spring- try to look past the angle of the clipped hair.






Can you see what I mean? His bodyworker pointed out that a lot of apparent "conformation" is actually _posture_, and if certain muscles are being held abnormally tense they can pull the body out of its natural alignment and cause the horse's conformation to look different than it actually is. Fascinating! I'm seeing that at work in the yearling I have now as well. He looked HORRIBLY post-legged this week and I asked the body-worker if he really is post-legged and that's causing the locking, or is the locking causing him to stand in a way that makes his joints look bad? She believes tentatively that it's postural at this point since when he folds his legs to take a step his stifle looks quite deep indeed, whereas Kody's stifle stays shallow and incorrect through all stages of movement like the mare above. It's hard to describe what I mean, but it's like Kody's stifle is too high and too far back. The bones aren't as long as they should be and the angle ends up too straight so they can meet. The baby doesn't have that problem but stands funny because he feels awkward and worries he will lock.

I don't have any pictures of the youngster online but can try and post some shots of his hips and hind legs later.

Leia


----------



## kaykay (Sep 30, 2009)

I have noticed over the years and you can see it in the pictures that a lot of horses that lock also have very small hips. Form follows function for sure.


----------



## little lady (Sep 30, 2009)

Wonderful information! Great animation! In all my years of having & raising big horses never encountered this issue so this is very helpful! Thanks!


----------



## JMS Miniatures (Sep 30, 2009)

I had one that got pretty bad when you worked him. I no longer have him so won't post pics. But he wasn't straight up and down in the back like you read sometimes. But he was badly cowhocked, toed out, and had a weak hip. How he was able to move so pretty I have no idea.

Now this guy he is your all-around performance horse. If he was ever going to show a locking stifle he would have by now, especially what happened to him couple years ago due to me not noticing it. Anyways this boy is awesome and if only I could have a million more like him. Too me he looks alot like Minimor's mare at the stifle.






Ok now lilmiracles is just showing off



. Thats pretty cool and shows it really well. My horse I sold he did that. These minis I find are very bad considering locking stifles and I think people need to pay more attention to it.


----------



## Zora (Oct 1, 2009)

My mini Midnight has locking stifles, both hind legs.

she still walk, trot, canters well though and loves to jump!

Midnight>







 And midnight jumping<

And my other mini Angel who doesn't have a stifle problem>



 Click pictures to enlarge


----------



## targetsmom (Oct 1, 2009)

Because locking stifles can be such an issue with minis and there are some wonderful photos - complete with animation - on here, I wonder if this could be put on the Best of the Forum?


----------



## wildoak (Oct 1, 2009)

Great point about the posture aspect - that makes so much sense. I've had a couple with locking stifles and it does often seem to go hand in hand with a shallow, weaker hip. The worst we had - and worst I've ever seen - was a filly who started locking when I put her out in a big field with her dam. She would lock and stay locked on both legs, very pitiful looking. We had surgery done on her at a much earlier age than I (& vets) would have prefered, but she was just miserable. Her dam never had a problem & neither did sire but in hindsight it was apparent that he produced the problem. The filly is in a pet home, and the stallion is gone & gelded. He gave me two, the other a gelding I drove and just adored who only had issues when he was stalled for a period of time.

Jan


----------



## MindyLee (Oct 1, 2009)

How about a mini with a stiffle (left hind) that looks like it pops/clicks? No sound, cant feel any differance when I put both hands on each side and feel while walking, nothing. Just notice when my mini walks and it looks just like it slightly pops in each step.

Would that be considered a locking stiffle or possibly something else that can be fixed or go away as my mini matures?

Someone mentioned to me a OCD? I will be taking her to the vet as well, just wanted your opinions too.


----------



## dreamlandnh (Oct 1, 2009)

What is the surgery that you had done.?

My little guy has his left hind that locks from time/time. You can see it when he walks at the trot he looks just fine. He is a great little performance guy, and tries to please nonstop. I just want to help him with this. He wins many classes (driving) but I don't put him in halter because of the leg.

Will excerise help him? If so can you advise what type.


----------



## sls (Oct 1, 2009)

To everyone,

Thank you so much for your input. I am really trying to "get it".

In looking at the pictures to determine how "straight the stifle" is you are looking at the hock and feeling the bone up to the hip to determine if it is straight or at an angle?

The more at an angle the long bone between the hock and hip is the better?

And the contributing factor is it the weak hip and/or lack of muscle in the hind quarters?

Also, is this hereditary? If a colt/filly is two and shows no signs (but mare or sire did have) is there a good chnace it will not appear?

Sherry


----------



## krissy3 (Oct 1, 2009)

sls said:


> To everyone,
> Thank you so much for your input. I am really trying to "get it".
> 
> In looking at the pictures to determine how "straight the stifle" is you are looking at the hock and feeling the bone up to the hip to determine if it is straight or at an angle?
> ...


----------



## Bunnylady (Oct 1, 2009)

A couple of the posts in this thread seem a tad confused



. Just for the record, "Patella" isn't a condition. Patella is the correct name for your kneecap. The stifle joint is analogous to our knee. Horses' stifles are designed so that they can "lock," allowing a horse to sleep while standing up. There is a place where the patella sits to do this. This is a normal part of the way the leg functions. Unfortunately, in some horses, the patella will slip into place when it isn't meant to, or won't come out when it's supposed to. That's a locking stifle.

When we talk about straight stifles, we don't mean straight like a ruler, just not as much of an angle as we would prefer to see. As Leia said, it seems to have to do with the lengths of the bones and their relationships to each other. Muscle development plays a role, too. As does activity - I knew a QH mare that would lock up if she was stalled for more than a few hours (like overnight.) As long as she was able to move around, she was fine. As to whether it is hereditary - well, the condition itself isn't, but the conformation that can make it likely to occur certainly can be. A lot of young horses go through a stage where they do this, and outgrow it as they mature. It can appear in an otherwise sound horse as a result from an injury in the stifle area.

There are a couple of different surgeries that are done to try to correct this problem, and they meet with varied success. The more radical surgery actually severs the ligament that allows the patella to get into its notch. This is what was finally done to Leia's Kody. Kody's legs no longer lock, at any time. Kody is now apparently pain-free (Hooray!!), but the trade-off is, he can no longer sleep standing up. (Sorry, Leia, I don't mean to steal your thunder. I know of several horses that have had this surgery, but Kody's the only one whose name I know!)


----------



## Katiean (Oct 1, 2009)

I have a mare that we believe had an injury to her left stifle before we got her. She loves driving so much that when she is in harness she never shows anything wrong. However, she gets real stiff in rear. I think it is on her right rear. She runs with the rest of the horses and never has a problem. when she is up being fed is when she will walk stiff. would that be a stifle or arthritis? I have not had any x-rays done.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 1, 2009)

Bunnylady said:


> A couple of the posts in this thread seem a tad confused
> 
> 
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT post, Bunnylady! You just saved me a lot of typing and I agree with everything you said from start to finish.








The no-sleeping-standing-up thing turned out to be of much less concern than I expected when I had the surgery done; Kody already laid down constantly for naps before the procedure and still does, but after a few months he learned to rest a hind leg and snooze standing up despite not being able to lock the other one. I don't notice any change in his behavior now except that he walks freely, doesn't worry about whether it's worth it to move around his stall to get food or water, has lost all resistance to backing, stands much squarer, has gained literally ten pounds of muscle in his hindquarters, and now kicks at flies and even other horses. It still bothers me deeply to cut a stabilizing ligament in a horse's leg but for one as dramatically affected as Kody was at ages 4-8, I would not hesitate again. There was no way he was getting better on his own and he was miserable.

The yearling I have who is doing this might very well grow out of it so I will wait to make a decision on him until he's three or thereabouts. Unlike Kody he does not lock with every first walk step, moves normally around his paddock and has no trouble backing up most of the time. It affects his quality of life much less. I think for him some work over walk and trot poles and general exercise is going to be the order of the day and may solve the problem all on its own.



MindyLee said:


> How about a mini with a stifle (left hind) that looks like it pops/clicks? No sound, cant feel any differance when I put both hands on each side and feel while walking, nothing. Just notice when my mini walks and it looks just like it slightly pops in each step.


 Definitely take this horse to the vet as there's all sorts of things it could be. If you feel nothing when you put a hand on top of the horse's hip I would say (from personal experience only) that this is likely not a locking problem as when the ligament springs free there is a definite twang or sudden release through the whole back end even if it only caught a little. That was the first thing I noticed after Kody's desmotomy- I put my hand on his back while he was grazing and nothing happened. I burst into tears on the spot, I was so overwhelmed. That popping had *always* been there, and suddenly he could move normally! It was an amazing moment.



The yearling has that same soundless pop or give -it's hard to describe- when he unlocks. It's exactly what it would feel like if you stretched a bungee over an object that had a shallow hook and the bungee suddenly rolled off the end- after all, that's essentially what's happening inside your horse.

The way the vets I've talked to have described it, I think it's the same feeling we get when suddenly your hip feels "caught" in a certain position and you have to force yourself to move it until it pops...it doesn't actually hurt, but it's very uncomfortable and hard to force yourself to do it so you can move again. I always thought that was something with the joint itself but my dr said it's a ligament- just like when a stifle locks.



I can't imagine having that feeling every time you started walking! That is why I am so passionately against allowing horses with this trait to breed. Sure, it's easily fixed with a quick five minute procedure. But no horse should ever have to experience that in the first place and IMO the horse is NOT breeding sound if they have to have a surgery in order to walk normally. Others feel differently, but that is my perspective after watching my horse live with this condition for years and seeing what it did to him. I never want to see another horse go through that.





Leia


----------



## jegray21 (Oct 1, 2009)

I have a horse who had very bad stifles and did a very simple procedure that the vet called blistering. It sounds terrible but the end result was a normal horse with no stifle issues. The stifles are the joint that locks when horses sleep standing up. It often gets in the way with performance horses and this procedure is done often and is successful. It is not a surgery it is an injection. My horse sleeps standing up fine and has not had any issues, we did this five years ago, it improved his movement and confidence.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 1, 2009)

It's good to hear that blistering worked for someone!



Exercise is generally considered the first step, then the treatments range from iodine injections to surgically splitting the ligament to cause it to scar and thicken to cutting it completely. For a horse as bad as mine was the vets were not willing to even TRY blistering as they all said there wasn't a chance in the world it would help him. I know that is not the case with other horses with more minor and intermittant problems but it was for my gelding.

We did try the splitting procedure but it had a long recovery time and things were actually worse after five months, something I didn't think was possible.



Several friends I know tried it on their horses around the same time and all of us had poor results and ended up doing the desmotomy in the end. I wish I had done that first as two bilateral surgeries in six months was very hard on him.

Leia


----------



## wildoak (Oct 2, 2009)

Leia, I have to agree about the partial splitting. I have a 2 yr old filly now who started locking as a yearling (coincidentally when we first put her to work in the round pen, on a very limited basis). She had the partial ligament splitting done, seemed better for a month or so then regressed badly. Rather than take her back in immediately I have put her out on 10 acres or so with my broodmares to see if exercise will help. She has to go up and down hills, and generally be on the move a lot. Took several weeks to see a difference and I was about to give up, but this last couple of weeks she finally appears to be moving more freely. Initially she quit locking & dragging a leg, but still visibly popped when she moved off. Now she moves off much more smoothly - she gets the winter to condition herself and see whether the change is permanent, but I am encouraged by what I see. She previously was turned out 24/7 on about an acre, but she evidently wasn't forced to move enough to effect a change.

Jan


----------



## sugarboy (Oct 2, 2009)

I have a riding size appaloosa mare with a very bad stifle problem which the vet had suggested to have surgury on but I have limited funds so I had to do some research to find out what kind of treatments were out there. I went to www.valleyvet.com and found this supplement call recovery eq and within 2 weeks the mare was rideable. You can get this supplement at a lot of tack shops and through tack catalogs and if you have a horse with a stifle problem I really encourage you to try it, it may take 2 months but I would be willing to bet you will see a difference.

Hope this helps someone out there!

Melissa


----------

