# Appy questions



## Becky

Not being an appaloosa breeder, I do try to keep up with some of the current research.




However, my biggest question is, to get color, is it best to breed like pattern to like pattern? I know fewspots and snowcaps are supposed to be homozygous for those patterns, but getting color from other patterns, what works best?


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## REO

Not fair Becky! Don'tcha know you gotta post pics and share!





That's a good question! I've always kinda wanted to know that too. I have 2 pintaloosa mares.


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## ohmt

That is a wonderful question....one that most appy breeders would like to know



in my experience, it really depends on the horse. My few spot throws mostly blankets, but I breed him to mares with zero appaloosa breeding. He has given me a few leopards too-all out of mares with zero appy breeding. The fist time I bred him to an appy mare, the foal was solid bay (eventually varnished). Research shows that red based appaloosas seem to usually be 'louder'.

My varnish appy mare has given me two varnishes by two different few spots, and a fewcap. My leopard stallion has given me two blanketed appaloosas out of solid red mares.

Colts are also usually 'louder' than fillies which is why leopard mares are hard to find.

To get a leopard pattern out of/by a non leopard appy, that horse needs to have a leopard within 3 generations of his/her pedigree (I believe that's how it goes).

You should go take a look at the dams of ginny long's appy boys from alliance. Both exhibit minimal appy characteristics and were bred to solid, non appy stallions.

Breeding for appy patterns is a total crap shoot. It's a lot of fun though!


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## Becky

Hey, Robin, I just got them in last night and haven't taken any new pictures.



I've already sold one mare and she's not here. But, here is a picure of the other mare taken a few years ago. Lil Promises Black Mercedes.






While I don't have a picture of the stallion yet, Indian Dreams Spectacular Royalty, he looks very much like Brewers Classic Supreme, pictured here. A classic example of the high quality appaloosas the Brewers used to breed.






Both of my horses are snowflake pattern. Not sure if there is anything else going on.


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## palsminihorses

ohmt said:


> That is a wonderful question....one that most appy breeders would like to know
> 
> 
> 
> in my experience, it really depends on the horse. My few spot throws mostly blankets, but I breed him to mares with zero appaloosa breeding. He has given me a few leopards too-all out of mares with zero appy breeding. The fist time I bred him to an appy mare, the foal was solid bay (eventually varnished). Research shows that red based appaloosas seem to usually be 'louder'.


I raised big appaloosas for years before getting into miniature appys. I was always told that in order to produce a *true* leopard, that *both* parents had to have appy in their pedigree.

With my big appys I found that I got more color from my blanketed stallion when I bred him to solid or minimal 'appy-bred' mares. I now have a snowcap mini stallion, and I bred him to both appy and solid (no appy) mares for 2011. This is the first year to use him, so it will be fun to see what colors (or lack of) that we get! LOL

Welcome to the world of appys, Becky! And I'm with REO, you need to share pictures!! And in case you don't know about it, there is *great* information from The Appaloosa Project.

Pam

Oops! I must have been typing while Becky was putting up pictures! Beautiful mare!!

Will look forward to seeing pictures of the stallion too!


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## ohmt

Oh oh I LOVE the mare!!

Pals-it is very rare to get a true leopard, I would love a whole herd. My few spot has given me one out of a solid silver black mare. She is mickey mouse bred top and roan ranger bred bottom, no appy. It was a beautiful colt, spots head to toe with zero solid color (other than the spots). Looked just like his grandsire, toyland casino chips. Premie and we lost him, one of the only times I've ever seen my grandmother cry. The other two leopards were born with color on their heads and legs so technically not true leopards.

P.s.-I've got a couple mares in foal to our tiny palomino stallion (son of the pretty buckskin mare of yours). I can't wait! Dream is such a spitfire. A whole lot of personality in that teensy little body


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## HGFarm

LOL, I seriously thought about buying this mare a couple of years ago- small world.

Having been raising Appies of various sizes since 1973, I will tell you it is a complete crap shoot. NOTHING is guaranteed and no, breeding like pattern to like pattern means absolutely nothing, LOL

The ONLY way you are guaranteed color is a TRUE fewspot (not a roaned out or grayed out horse), a fewcap or a snowcap. And a horse only having characteristics at birth is considered 'colored' as those characteristics in particular only apply Appaloosas. So you may get a range of color from those, or very little.

A leopard is a leopard- what you see is what you get. There are no fake or false leopards. There CAN be false snowcaps- to be homozygous, just as in pintos, BOTH parents must be Appaloosa. Any two Appies can produce a snowcap, but leopard breeding has to be involved when it's a true fewspot.

I have pics at home I can post of the difference of all of them if anyone is interested.

Congrats on your new horses and welcome to the world of mystery and NEVER knowing what you're gonna get! LOL


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## ohmt

HG-I am still learning all the appy stuff, I have read that a 'true' leopard is one that is born leopard with zero solid color (other than spots) on the face and legs. Is this true? Sometimes I read things that are outdated. You should definitely post all of the pictures for reference for others. I have my own stash, but using my phone at the moment so getting pics on here is tricky.

Fewspots definitely give the best color (by that I mean 'loud' patterns). I lucked out and found a fewspot who is sired by a loud leopard and out of a loud leopard. He has 7 generations of registered black based leopard appies top and bottom. He's my appy genetic goldmine



I used to have a snowcap and all of his foals were born solid and then varnished out later. No app charactertics of any kind until about a year old. He gave me appy, but not loud appy.


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## cretahillsgal

Beautiful mare! I'm not usually an appy fan, but this one is pretty.


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## HGFarm

Ok, when I get home this evening I will post some pics and also a link to a good article, written by the 'gurus' of Appaloosa color patterns who have been doing hands on studies for DECADES.

It seems that the snowcap Minis for some reason, have an extremely strong roaning gene- not like with the POA's or full sized ones who usually keep their nice distinct blanket pattern.

Must get back to work, will post more later!


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## Reble

My friend breeds appy's and found two appy's no spots.

But with her solid black Mares lot of spots.


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## REO

Nice mare!





Now you've got me wondering what pattern/s my black pinaloosa mare has





She's bred to Nort and knowing my luck, I'll get a solid black foal!


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## palsminihorses

ohmt said:


> Oh oh I LOVE the mare!!
> 
> Pals-it is very rare to get a true leopard, I would love a whole herd. My few spot has given me one out of a solid silver black mare. She is mickey mouse bred top and roan ranger bred bottom, no appy. It was a beautiful colt, spots head to toe with zero solid color (other than the spots). Looked just like his grandsire, toyland casino chips. Premie and we lost him, one of the only times I've ever seen my grandmother cry. The other two leopards were born with color on their heads and legs so technically not true leopards.
> 
> P.s.-I've got a couple mares in foal to our tiny palomino stallion (son of the pretty buckskin mare of yours). I can't wait! Dream is such a spitfire. A whole lot of personality in that teensy little body


You must have been so surprised to see that little leopard baby out of the solid mare! So sorry to hear that you lost him.

I'll be watching your website for the upcoming Dream foals! How exciting! Did I show you a picture of his 2010 half-brother? He's an appy with a full blanket and spots!! Awsome little guy! I need to update his picture on our website.

Pam


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## Becky

Thanks for all the info.






I really appreciate it.

What is known about the snowflake pattern? I do know that those are generally born dark and spot more with age. But, are there any known facts about it? Are other patterns involved?

Here is a picture of the hips of my new stallion. He is developing a few more spots on his sides and back now. I'm assuming he is snowflake only?


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## Ashley

HGFarm said:


> Ok, when I get home this evening I will post some pics and also a link to a good article, written by the 'gurus' of Appaloosa color patterns who have been doing hands on studies for DECADES.
> 
> It seems that the snowcap Minis for some reason, have an extremely strong roaning gene- not like with the POA's or full sized ones who usually keep their nice distinct blanket pattern.
> 
> Must get back to work, will post more later!



What is the breeding on your mare???? I had a mare that was like her, sold her when she was 18. She had several foals. One looked like her, the rest were all solid. I bred her 3 years to my appy stallion. Two black foals, not a white hair on them. The 3 I dont know as she sold bred.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures

I admit to knowing nearly nothing about appys so forgive my ignorance but is there not a breed of horse in Europe some where that is marked like a leopard appy ALL the time. Can't recall the name and perhaps it too has a variety of color/pattern and I've only seen the one type.

Hmmm, never mind I Googled horse breeds and it is called a Knabstrup and apparently does come in a wide variety of patterns.

This thread has been fascinating reading.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

I think that the snowflake pattern doesn't carry any other patterns, so if you breed snowflake to snowflake, you can only get snowflack or appaloosa roan, commonly called varnish roan (starts solid colored). I think on the spectrum of appy color, snowflake is "one up" on varnish roan, but I can't remember for sure. You can have a varnish roan that is homozygous for the appaloosa gene, it just means they didn't get a pattern gene.

Appaloosa breeding is so tricky because the foal needs to inherit two genes to express the appaloosa color. One the appaloosa gene that "switches on" the color for the pattern gene, and two the pattern gene (snowflake, blanket, leopard).

One of the reasons Miniature Horse appaloosas do not breed as "true" as the full size apps is that hardly anyone breeds appaloosa to appaloosa in the Mini realm, a lot breed to solids. The more appy to appy breeding in the background (pedigree), the more likely the offspring is to have those pattern genes! Second reason is Miniatures can (not all have it) carry a suppression gene that minimizes the expression of the appaloosa pattern. For example, I owned an almost solid black mare, she had no appy markings unless you clipped her, then you could see spots mixed in her coat. She had no mottling, and no roaning, no striped hooves. But bred to a leopard appaloosa she produced a true fewspot filly! Couldn't tell visually that she was an appaloosa, but she proved it by what she produced. This is why I'm so eager for the test for the appaloosa gene! She was appy bred, just had that suppression gene going on, so you couldn't visually see she was appaloosa.

I think that's why I stick with the appaloosas, even as they discover more of the genetics, it's still complicated, and you never know for sure what you will get! Breeding for pinto is too easy, LOL!


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## Becky

Thanks for the info, Kim. I had assumed varnish roan is separate from snowflake? One thing I like about these two horses is that neither appear to be varnish. Since varnish tends to increase white and decrease color over time, I'm most fond of appys that don't have any. However, maybe varnish helps to turn on the color??

So, the appaloosa gene and the pattern gene(s) are two separate genes and you need to have both to get color???

Yes, I'm quite anxious to hear when appaloosa gene tests are finally available!

Ashley, Mercedes is sired by Kobecks Chief Black Cloud, a black appaloosa and out of Double AA Red Lady who I think is solid red.

Keep the info coming! I'm really finding all of this fascinating!


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## palsminihorses

The IMAPC wesite has a link to some of The Appaloosa Project findings. Here's a link to it:

http://weloveminispots.com/appyProject.shtml

Pam


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## palsminihorses

REO said:


> Nice mare!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Now you've got me wondering what pattern/s my black pinaloosa mare has
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> She's bred to Nort and knowing my luck, I'll get a solid black foal!


You can get pinto and/or appy patterns from a pintaloosa!! I bred our pintaloosa stallion to both appy and solid mares. Surprisingly, I got *pinto* foals from my appy mares and got a blanketed foal from one of the solid mares!! Go figure! Like HG said, breeding for appys is a crap shoot......but oh so much fun!!





Pam


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## ohmt

> Thanks for the info, Kim. I had assumed varnish roan is separate from snowflake? One thing I like about these two horses is that neither appear to be varnish. Since varnish tends to increase white and decrease color over time, I'm most fond of appys that don't have any. However, maybe varnish helps to turn on the color??


I have read that many horses that are pinto have the gene to turn on the appy. I don't like mixing appy and pinto so haven't tried it, but I know many appy breeders do and get very good color. I don't believe your stallion is a snowflake. I believe he may be beginning a blanket. How old is he? Half of my few spot's foals are born solid with a few big white spots across their rump. Eventually they get a blanket.

Here is a varnish appaloosa stallion I used to own. Sired by a snowcap stallion and out of a silver black pinto mare. This stallion was born solid black and then started to varnish out as a yearling. This pic was taken when he was 6 yrs. old







Next is a varnish/snowflake appaloosa filly. Sired by a silver black few spot stallion (double a apache kid) and out of a chestnut varnish appaloosa mare who you can see in the background. The dam was born solid chestnut and varnished out at a year old. This filly started to varnish and get snowflake spotting at a year old.

Foal:






Yearling:






2 yr old:











The sire of the above filly-Few spot appaloosa, pictured at a show at 14? years of age (Double A Apache Kid, owned by my good friend Chris Dove before he passed away last year)


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## debbiesshelties

Hello, I can not help with the appy question.

Just wanted to say that my stallion is a Lil Promises horse and I adore him! Sweetest boy in the world. Love your mare too.

Debbie


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## ohmt

Ok, adding some more pictures sorry guys!!

Fewcap filly, sired by my few spot stallion and out of a varnish appaloosa mare (same dam as the chestnut varnish mare above)






Here she is clipped-she is almost all white this year (she is not grey-it's the appy)






AND lastly, a bay blanketed filly sired by my few spot and out of a solid chestnut mare with zero appy breeding. Born with big white spots on her rump like many of her sisters, and has a blanket this year

This pic was taken at just 2 days old, so don't judge her too much










Pam-I did get to see Dream's brother and absolutely love him!! I can't wait to cross Dream with a couple of appy mares next year. I'd love a few palomino/buckskin appaloosas. Will send you pictures of his foals next year once they arrive. I'm pretty excited already!


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## Becky

> I don't believe your stallion is a snowflake. I believe he may be beginning a blanket.


That's interesting! I just 'assumed' he was snowflake as he actually doesn't have any 'round spots' as such. But, that tells you how little I know about appy patterns.



He is 3 years old this year and is just starting to get a few more white hairs on his back and one white spot on his left side towards his shoulder. Do blanket apps tend to get more spots or larger blankets as they mature?


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## ohmt

Becky, I'm not sure! I think appaloosas in general like to change and accumulate more spots and more white with age. My yearling blanketed colt is varnishing out on his belly and sides and I can see some spots there now so I believe he's going to end up with an extended blanket to his shoulders. I have a weanling colt that was born solid chestnut and when I clipped him had a whole bunch of spots over his rump and is varnishing out like crazy now. I think he'll end up almost white with those spots on his rump.

Your stallion is young so he may very well change quite a bit in the years to come. Take pictures as often as you can and compare. It's amazing how much they change and you don't even notice!


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## Katiean

You can never know for sure what you will get with an appy. I have a mare that I think is 6 now and this past summer she spotted out. Her 3 year old son who had also been solid spotted this year. IDK, maybe it is in the water? LOL. I do not know why they both waited until this year to spot. Missy now has a fist sized white spot at the top of her tail and some others across her butt. She has even gotten some white on her face. Her 3 year old colt was sired by a blanketed appy. He has round dots all over. Both are silver dapple.


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## AppyLover2

I've seen the term fewcap used several times. Sure wish someone would tell me what that is ----- a picture would be nice too.


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## HGFarm

I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....

Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.

OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.

I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.

There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.

A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.

A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)

A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.


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## Becky

Really fascinating info! Keep it coming.





The pictures are great!


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## HGFarm

It seems there is some confusion about leopards also. There are leopards and near leopards.

The horse in my avatar has been mistaken for a 'leopard' by some. He is actually a varnish roan with black spots over his rear. He has no spots on his legs or the rest of his body, and his legs are actually dark, when he is not freshly clipped and he has 'varnish marks' on his face,etc.....

A near leopard, has too much white for a 'blanket with spots' but not enough white for a leopard. The head and sometimes upper neck is darker.. there may be spots through out but the basicly the head and neck are darker, not white based with clear spots and the legs are always dark, not white with spots. I guess as comparable to the snowcap, fewcap and fewspot, there are horses with blankets and spots, near leopards and then leopards. Again I will post pics of these three types.

A true leopard has a white body, including legs, with spots all over.

Below are what might be a typical blanket with spots (pics 1 and 2), near leopards (pics 3 &4) and leopards.


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## AppyLover2

Laurie is that last one a Plaudit horse? Except for placement of his spots he looks exactly like my guy.


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## ohmt

Thank you for posting the pictures and descriptions laurie! Now quick question about the filly. I did originally think she was snowcap, then she started to lose all of her color. It was different than previous snowcaps i'd had so I sent a bunch of pictures to someone working on the lp gene testing to see what their opinion was. The lady I had been talking to said she was fewcap. I did not have a chance to compare her with others yet to see. I just went with it. I think I might send them some updated pictures of her as a yearling. What you said definitely makes sense. Either way I love her


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## HGFarm

I dont want to bore anyone to death, LOL

Appies can also carry more than one pattern. You could have a varnish roan, that also has a blanket with spots. (Reasonably good example in the pic below)

Or you can have roans with spots throughout the main part of the body. (2nd pic)











Blankets come in all sizes from just a small blanket over the rear (pics below), to blankets clear up to the withers.....











Spots over the rear is just that, spots over the rear, not a blanket. Here are a couple of examples of that pattern.


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## Becky

> Spots over the rear is just that, spots over the rear, not a blanket.


So you don't think that minimal expression 'butt spotting' is just a minimally marked blanket pattern?

It seems to me that varnish is really common in miniatures, but maybe not as much in full size horses?


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## HGFarm

OHMT, when your filly was born, did she have dark pig hairs but showed white underneath up on her neck and shoulder area? She may just be roaning out heavily in the front, which most snowcap Minis seem to do.

I will attach a couple of pics of some fewcap foals. You can see at birth their neck and shoulders are covered with colored hair, but you can clearly see the white coat underneath from the moment they are born. It is something that is already there, not a 'roaning' factor from dark hair- it is already 'white' underneath. But because of the dark legs, darker head and other dark areas, these are not fewspots.


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## ohmt

Yep! She was born with big white rings around her eyes and had the pig hairs with white underneath around her shoulder/lower neck area. Does that mean she is just varnishing? As of right now she looks like the first foal you posted a pic of without as much dark hair on her neck and head.


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## HGFarm

I have never seen so many roan Appaloosas in my life as I have with the Miniatures!!! LOL The white spots over the rear could be an 'attempted' blanket that didnt make it, hahahaha, but in a registry description of this type of pattern, it is just listed as spots over the rear, or something similar to that- it really isnt a 'blanket'.

Again, it seems in the Minis, it is SO hard to get a vivid pattern that stays and doesnt roan out with time. It seems hard to get a blanket and spots that will STAY that way, or a nice hip pattern, etc.. that stays that way. And I just dont know why all the Mini snowcaps roan out to just about lose where the blanket started and where it ended...... I have had snowcaps in the full sized and also in the POA's that didnt roan out at all and their pattern was very vivid and distinct and stayed that way even at several years old.

I would love to be able to get patterns like this on the Minis, where the dark part of the body STAYS dark and they dont roan out where that sharp pattern sort of disappears!


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## Maple Hollow Farm

Ok I couldnt resist replying to the fact that pinto brings out appy pattern because I totally believe that to be true after my last two foals by my snowflake mare!

My yearling pintaloosa colt has a gorgeous big spotted blanket and he has very sharp color with no roaning...yet...but hopefully wont LOL! I know Im probably gonna get yelled at for breeding appy to pinto but I love it



!






And when the same mare was bred to a leopard she had this....a solid black filly although she is already getting roan hairs and mottled skin and striped hooves!






Also I am LOVING all of the appy pictures!!!


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## Ridgerunner

Thanx for starting this thread, Becky! I LOVE it! So many gorgeous appies to look at, and so much good info! If you get tired of that mare, you can send her over to Missouri!



I think the varnish and snowflake genes are connected some way. I have one mare who roaned out first, then developed snowflakes. I also have a 6 year old mare that had NO white whatsoever till she was 4,then started developing a very unique snowflake pattern on her hips. Now she has them all over! As for you stallion, my 2 year old was born with that pattern, stayed the same as a yearling, then this spring shed out with a HUGE blanket with spots! His mane and tail are now growing out white, so I expect him to shed out next spring as a near leopard. Once you start breeding appies, you'll be hooked! They're sooo much fun! Christmas comes every spring!


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## ChromeLuvr

I am loving this thread!!


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## ohmt

Thanks for all of the help Laurie, I appreciate it and I'm sure there are many others who have read this that do as well.

Melinda, love what Mars Rosebud has been giving you. Did I ever tell you she gave us a tiny solid chestnut filly before we sold her? She was at a zoo near us (we sent two mares there to help the zookeepers get acquainted with equine and foaling-they weren't out in the open) And actually had the filly while a news station was filming. They got it all recorded and put it on the news that night. Also, the black varnish appy I posted a pic of on here is mars rosebud's brother and the two fillies are her sister's daughters.


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## Nancy

HGFarm said:


> LOL, I seriously thought about buying this mare a couple of years ago- small world.
> 
> Having been raising Appies of various sizes since 1973, I will tell you it is a complete crap shoot. NOTHING is guaranteed and no, breeding like pattern to like pattern means absolutely nothing, LOL
> 
> The ONLY way you are guaranteed color is a TRUE fewspot (not a roaned out or grayed out horse), a fewcap or a snowcap. And a horse only having characteristics at birth is considered 'colored' as those characteristics in particular only apply Appaloosas. So you may get a range of color from those, or very little.
> 
> A leopard is a leopard- what you see is what you get. There are no fake or false leopards. There CAN be false snowcaps- to be homozygous, just as in pintos, BOTH parents must be Appaloosa. Any two Appies can produce a snowcap, but leopard breeding has to be involved when it's a true fewspot.
> 
> I have pics at home I can post of the difference of all of them if anyone is interested.
> 
> Congrats on your new horses and welcome to the world of mystery and NEVER knowing what you're gonna get! LOL


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## Nancy

HGFarm said:


> LOL, I seriously thought about buying this mare a couple of years ago- small world.
> 
> Having been raising Appies of various sizes since 1973, I will tell you it is a complete crap shoot. NOTHING is guaranteed and no, breeding like pattern to like pattern means absolutely nothing, LOL
> 
> The ONLY way you are guaranteed color is a TRUE fewspot (not a roaned out or grayed out horse), a fewcap or a snowcap. And a horse only having characteristics at birth is considered 'colored' as those characteristics in particular only apply Appaloosas. So you may get a range of color from those, or very little.
> 
> A leopard is a leopard- what you see is what you get. There are no fake or false leopards. There CAN be false snowcaps- to be homozygous, just as in pintos, BOTH parents must be Appaloosa. Any two Appies can produce a snowcap, but leopard breeding has to be involved when it's a true fewspot.
> 
> I have pics at home I can post of the difference of all of them if anyone is interested.
> 
> Congrats on your new horses and welcome to the world of mystery and NEVER knowing what you're gonna get! LOL


HG, I almost bought her too she was at a farm in southern Indiana. LOL At that time she was only AMHR and I wanted double registered mares. She is a beauty , probably should have bought her.


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## Becky

> I have never seen so many roan Appaloosas in my life as I have with the Miniatures!!! LOL The white spots over the rear could be an 'attempted' blanket that didnt make it, hahahaha, but in a registry description of this type of pattern, it is just listed as spots over the rear, or something similar to that- it really isnt a 'blanket'.
> Again, it seems in the Minis, it is SO hard to get a vivid pattern that stays and doesnt roan out with time. It seems hard to get a blanket and spots that will STAY that way, or a nice hip pattern, etc.. that stays that way. And I just dont know why all the Mini snowcaps roan out to just about lose where the blanket started and where it ended...... I have had snowcaps in the full sized and also in the POA's that didnt roan out at all and their pattern was very vivid and distinct and stayed that way even at several years old.


Same here on the varnish roan. The majority of miniature appaloosas I see, carry this and they lose so much of their color as they mature. I always said if I were going to get miniature appys, I didn't want varnish! Hence the reason I love this stallion. Indian Dreams Spectacular Royalty. No varnish! Not to mention his ultra refined body type with his tiny head. Seems so hard to get in mini appys!

I assumed the snowflake pattern was separate from varnish, but I sure don't know. It appears, though, that the snowflakes don't lose their color *if* they don't carry varnish? The mare, Mercedes, is still quite black at 14 years of age. She has not gotten lighter over the past few years. She's stunning!

I showed the 2009 AMHA World Champion Multi Color Mare, Moriahs IB Fancy, for my client Suzanne Sooter. Suzanne was looking for a black, blanketed mare a few years ago and I found Fancy for her as a yearling. However, she carries varnish and has continued to get lighter. She is a gorgeous mare, though, with a beautiful head and refined body. I get the pleasure of showing her again in 2011.




Here is a picture of Fancy.






Melba, you are welcome! I'm so glad I started it too! Let's keep it going!!


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## wcr

This is a very informative thread as I know nothing about appy coloring. Becky I just have one question.

ARE YOU OUT OF YOUR FREAKIN MIND? It can take a lifetime to try to figure out pinto patterns and now you want to figure out appy? You must have a lot of time on your hands (she says tongue in cheek)


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## Charlotte

I'm not an appy breeder, but I'm REALLY enjoying reading this thread.

I know the purists don't like the pinto patterns and appy patterns crossed, but there have been some gorgeous ones IMO...Orion Light has always been my all time favorite miniature horse. (of course he would have been beautiful if he had been solid purple!) The first AMHA Nationals we exhibited at, in Columbus, Ohio, there was a pintaloosa filly that placed real high in her class. She was gorgeous. I asked the price...$15,000. I drooled a lot.





One of these days I may have to get me an app!





Charlotte

p.s. Isn't 'Catch' a pintaloosa? I can't remember, he has stockings, right? Another gorgeous one!


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## Becky

LOL, Kathi, I guess I'm a glutton for punishment.



Variety is the spice of life, right?

Seriously, I will always have my pinto breeding program, but there is something about a colorful appy that intrigues me. So, a token one or two here will be fun.


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## palsminihorses

HGFarm said:


> I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....
> 
> Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.
> 
> OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.
> 
> I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.
> 
> There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.
> 
> A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.
> 
> A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)
> 
> A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.


Laurie,

No one has ever explained the appaloosa patterns better than you!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to post these pictures! I didn't really understand the term 'fewcap.' I never heard of it when I was raising big appys...........beginning back in the 70's. Yep, I'm old!! LOL

I, too, would have never dreamed of mixing appys and pintos until I got into the miniatures! This has always been 'taboo' in the big appys. Castle Rock and Maple Hollow, I *love* your pintaloosas!! I'm hoping to get one highly colored like yours one day. This year I either got all pinto or all appy...........no combination of the two. I bred my Magic Man daughter to my snowcap appy stallion for 2011, so I'm anxious to see what I get!!

Pam


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## Maple Hollow Farm

ohmt said:


> Thanks for all of the help Laurie, I appreciate it and I'm sure there are many others who have read this that do as well.
> 
> Melinda, love what Mars Rosebud has been giving you. Did I ever tell you she gave us a tiny solid chestnut filly before we sold her? She was at a zoo near us (we sent two mares there to help the zookeepers get acquainted with equine and foaling-they weren't out in the open) And actually had the filly while a news station was filming. They got it all recorded and put it on the news that night. Also, the black varnish appy I posted a pic of on here is mars rosebud's brother and the two fillies are her sister's daughters.


Thanks, she has definitely been making me proud to own her!!!! I didnt know that but it is neat that she had it on the news LOL! This is neat, I love seeing relatives of my horses!!!! I love all of your appies!



palsminihorses said:


> Laurie,
> 
> No one has ever explained the appaloosa patterns better than you!!! Thank you so much for taking the time to post these pictures! I didn't really understand the term 'fewcap.' I never heard of it when I was raising big appys...........beginning back in the 70's. Yep, I'm old!! LOL
> 
> I, too, would have never dreamed of mixing appys and pintos until I got into the miniatures! This has always been 'taboo' in the big appys. Castle Rock and Maple Hollow, I *love* your pintaloosas!! I'm hoping to get one highly colored like yours one day. This year I either got all pinto or all appy...........no combination of the two. I bred my Magic Man daughter to my snowcap appy stallion for 2011, so I'm anxious to see what I get!!
> 
> Pam


Thanks!!!!!!



I bred Mars back to Magic Trick for a hopeful repeat of Magic and have lots of others bred for appy or pintaloosa foals so with any luck I will have them running every direction LOL!!!!

I agree though this is the best explaination of the appaloosa patterns, I am learning a ton!


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## HGFarm

Ok, I must admit I am one from the 'old school' and big horse breeding where Appies and pintos just dont mix, but hey, what ever floats one's boat, eh?

Thank you, I am glad you are enjoying the examples.

Becky, I think that mare Fancy is just to awful for your client to own, so send her here! I'll 'hide' her at my place, hahahaha She is lovely.

wcr, you are too funny. I gave up back in the 70's (nope, I am not a spring chicken either - probably more an old stewing hen by now, haha) trying to figure out Appy color and what you will get by breeding what to what. No rules seem to apply, but it sure is fun!!

** And P.S. that was why I had passed on this mare also- she was R only and by the time I noticed she was A also, she had been snagged. Ah well.


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## Lost Spoke Ranch

I too am one of those that has been loving the appaloosa coat pattern since 1971 when me and my family purchased my first POA stallion. Since then my husband and I have been actively experimenting with appaloosa color in the miniature horse since 1993. Although I find discussion about appaloosa genetics interesting, to me, over the years most of them only make my head hurt. The truth is no one has the complete and total picture.

Our primary goal over the years has been to produce miniatures with conformation and athletic ability good enough to successfully compete at the top AMHA/AMHR levels of showing. We also wanted to produce more than color class winners and are achieving our goals in halter and driving with our appaloosa bred horses year after year.

Weve bred appaloosa color to appaloosa color, appaloosa color to solids, and pinto color combinations. In my experience the better color and more importantly the better conformation and color have come from the crosses that include solids and/or pinto color. Its been nice to experience the worst foal color you may get is the one that may not be your first favorite color.

Breeding spotted horses is incredibly exciting and I say to each their own...breed what you like and what works for you to achieve the goals you want.

Happy spot breeding everybody!

Dawn


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## HGFarm

LOL Dawn I hear ya- that is my goal is well.... conformation always comes first, color is just an added plus (but really nice when you get it!!)

Oh someone had asked about Catch- yes he is pintoloosa. And one of the only ones I have ever liked. (I got to pet him the other day- what an incredibly handsome guy) I guess because he mostly looks Appy, with some socks- that is not bad, LOL


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## Becky

Laurie, I don't think you'd be able to pry Fancy out of her owners' hands.





Dawn, I think that should be every breeders goal no matter the color or patterns!


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## Manyspots

This has been a really fun group of posts to read. The pictures have been very good examples and Becky thank you for starting this! These miniatures are so much fun, something for everyone, no matter their colors or patterns. I used to think also, appy to appy only, now I have lighened up a bit. Also there was a time I didn't like the Falabellas, but guess what? I have a stallion that has some Falabella breeding now too! Just a world of fun for all of us, and how great for all to share! Any more pictures for examples? Keep the spots comming!


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## Tommy

HGFarm said:


> I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....
> 
> Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.
> 
> OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.
> 
> I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.
> 
> There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.
> 
> A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.
> 
> A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)
> 
> A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

I think the terms near leopard and fewcap are a bit outdated, especially if you follow the newest genetic "discoveries" on The Appaloosa Horse Project, but they do kind of work for expressing what the different patterns look like. Sometimes a horse can look like a "near leopard" but still carry the PATN (pattern) gene for leopard.

For example, this guy is out of a fewspot mare and sired by a leopard stallion, I call him a leopard. He should have the genetics to produce a leopard, his first foals are due next year, so I guess I will see what the genetic dice roll!





Weanling photo:






3 year old photo:


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## Tommy

It has been more than a year/maybe two or more since I have participated in some these color discussions/arguments that have gone on for years now, but from hearing of this topic I could not help myself; When terms are used like "I have heard..but don't want to go into specifics", that becomes a reaction out of heresay not necessarily out of reality or from verification.

More to follow....

Tommy



HGFarm said:


> I dont want to go into specifics here, but I have heard through others of some mis-information on the Appaloosa Project and horses that were mis identified regarding colors, patterns, etc....
> 
> Roans and snowflakes are born solid and color with age. It sometimes takes several years and some dont start to color until they are several years old either.
> 
> OHMT, your filly is a snowcap, not a fewcap. I will use some pics as examples here.
> 
> I will, in order, show a pic of a snowcap, a fewcap and a fewspot. All are noted for being homozygous and all are BORN basicly this way... they dont evolve into it. Either a horse has a snowcap blanket at birth or it doesnt. The rest of the body, like OHMT's filly there, can roan, spot or do whatever it wants, but it will never change the blanket or the fact that it has a snowcap blanket.
> 
> There are occasional 'false snowcaps'. This is when the horse has a white blanket with no spots, but only ONE parent is an Appaloosa. This horse will NOT be homozygous, so if you need to check something you are going to purchase, check to make sure both parents are Appy. Even if one only has characteristics, that counts as passing on the Appy gene.
> 
> A snowcap (pics 1 and 2)has a blanket pattern. The skin under that area will be pink, just like the white parts on a pinto has pink skin. There is no roaning or other patterns in the blanket area.
> 
> A fewcap has too much white to be a snowcap- more than a blanket, but not enough white to be a fewSPOT. Usually the head and lower legs will retain color, sometimes also the upper neck area. (Pictures 3 & 4)
> 
> A fewspot is born white with VERY LITTLE color anywhere. (Pics 5 and 6) You might find a half dozen body spots and a few dark hairs on the head area- perhaps a bit of color showing in the mane and tail but they are pretty much just a white horse. I have seen so many gray horses or white horses that were tried to be passed off as fewspots. BOTH parents must be Appaloosa, the horse didnt change color into this later, and there must be leopard breeding involved as well.


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## Tommy

Yes, Laurie, I guess "that is not bad, LOL".

Tommy



HGFarm said:


> LOL Dawn I hear ya- that is my goal is well.... conformation always comes first, color is just an added plus (but really nice when you get it!!)
> 
> Oh someone had asked about Catch- yes he is pintoloosa. And one of the only ones I have ever liked. (I got to pet him the other day- what an incredibly handsome guy) I guess because he mostly looks Appy, with some socks- that is not bad, LOL


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## Becky

Can someone explain the difference between LP and PATN and what each does? That really confuses me!


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

LP is the appaloosa gene, it is the "switch" that turns on the appaloosa pattern so it is expressed. A horse can inherit the pattern genes (PATN), but without the LP gene you won't visually see appaloosa pattern.

PATN are the pattern genes, when inherited along with the LP gene, you visually see a leopard, blanket, snowflake, etc.

Does that help?


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## Becky

Kim, thanks for responding.

So, if a horse inherits PATN only does it have any appaloosa characteristics or does it appear solid? And the same with LP?


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## Bonny

Thanks! Very informative!

Question, what chances are there that an fewcap stallion will produce colored foals with a solid mare? By colored, I mean visual spots or blankets.


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## HGFarm

Yes, Tommy, that is 'not bad' LOL It takes something special to make my head really swivel and Catch has that 'something' that just stands out. Not just the spots- he has an air and 'presence' that makes folks take notice when he shows up! He is just handsome all the way around.

I guess I am too old and set in my ways to teach new tricks, so you wont find any pintoloosas coming from my farm unless one of the neighbors mares were to sneak over or something, LOL

But I know everyone has their own tastes, color favorites, etc.... so that is always fun. Life would be dull and boring if we all liked the same thing.

I dont know that any terms are 'outdated' and because a horse has a leopard parent doesnt mean it is going to sire or produce leopards. Even a leopard is not going to reproduce leopards.... yes, you may get them occasionally but you will get a variety of colors, or perhaps none at all, LOL

Theory has it that a fewspot is about 99% for producing/siring color, a snowcap is about 96%. This was based on actual breeding and decades of study that have gone on by actual breeders and folks that have been hands on for more years than I have been around. So I am sure a fewcap would fall into that category somewhere.

Again, 'colored' includes horses just born with characteristics... but there is no telling what you would get with a fewcap and a solid..... could be characteristics, could be a handful of spots, could be a roan, could be a blanket, could be........................ You just never know until you try it and even then, you could do the same breeding 10 times and get 10 different patterns.

Come on Tommy, jump in. You know you want to, LOL


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## hairicane

Ok u guys asked for more pix, lol. Below is my homebred Orion grandson Hairicane Orions I See Spots. He is a buckskin leopard and was born looking just like this except his buckskin color has come in richer. BUT he also has blue eyes so is actually a pintaloosa!







Below is Icees half brother and another Orion grandson. This is Hairicane Orions Rodeo King and he is a sorrel pintaloosa. Kings dam is a bay pintaloosa. King jumped the fence 1 day last year and this may on the same day we had 2 foals born! He produced an appy with partial blue eyes and a pintaloosa very similar to him with blue eyes






As far as homozygous appy minis I happen to own a homozygous black fewcap stallion that was born with the same pattern he has now and has not roaned out. Here is Silver Bluff/Hairicane Sir Barton depending on registry. He is producing lots of loud foals but the most striking seem to come out of solid mares. Go figure! If bred to appys he makes lots of homozygous foals.






Below is one of this years Bart foals out of a solid black but appy bred mare. Other than being totally fuzzy at birth he was born this color

/sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc4/hs120.snc4/36385_433529917175_591992175_5780109_3674540_n.jpg

Below are 2 homozygous girls I bred and have recently sold. The sorrel snowcap is Hairicane Daisy Dukes and she was born this color and has not roaned out any. The black fewcap filly Lily actually has a couple spots on her butt which usually homozygous appys dont have but the Drs from the appaloosa project explained that her spots are irregular jagged edged and not the typical round or oval spots that the non homozygous spotted appys have. Lily may roan out hard to tell as we shaved her 2 times this summer and that lightens the black color. Lily is sired by our Lucky four Rebels Real McCoy, the only appaloosa son of the great Sids Rebel.


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## hairicane

And speaking of McCoy here is Lucky Four Rebels Real McCoy, sired by Sids Rebel out of a lovely appy mare. McCoy is tiny dont think he even makes 29" and has a stunning head and long archy neck for such a little guy.

He was born solid but had all appy characteristics and has gradually colored up to this point. McCoy sired some awesome foals this year including a so far solid sorrel filly that I would bet money will one day be a colored appy. She reminds me a lot of McCoy.






And my love, National Champion Moss Grove Rio Rhondo, one of the best moving minis u will ever see. Rio was born chestnut with a blanket and spots but roaned out to mostly white with spots by the time he was weaned. In this photo Rio is closely shaved and u can see the blanket area has white skin under it and u can see his original pattern that he was born with.






Oh somebody stop me I could go on and on. Yep I love the challenge of breeding quality horses with appy color!


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

> So, if a horse inherits PATN only does it have any appaloosa characteristics or does it appear solid? And the same with LP?



If a horse inherits PATN only will be solid, no appy roaning, no appy characteristics

If it inherits LP only is a varnish roan appaloosa (often born solid, but will have typical appy characteristics of mottled skin, striped hooves, etc)


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

> dont know that any terms are 'outdated' and because a horse has a leopard parent doesnt mean it is going to sire or produce leopards. Even a leopard is not going to reproduce leopards.... yes, you may get them occasionally but you will get a variety of colors, or perhaps none at all, LOL


Only outdated in terms of what they carry genetically. A "near" leopard and a "true" leopard carry the same pattern gene to produce the leopard pattern. Yes, it does not guarantee that you will get a leopard, but the genetic potential is "in there" for them to produce one. The terms can be confusing to folks new to appaloosas trying to learn the genetics of the patterns.





If you breed a varnish roan to a varnish roan no many how many times you repeat the cross, you will never get a leopard because they don't have the leopard pattern gene.


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## Becky

Thank you, Kim! That helps a lot!!!

Thanks for the excellent pictures, too, everyone.



Maybe this thread can be saved later to the Best Of The Forum? Lots of education here. But, in the meantime, lets keep it going!


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## HGFarm

Absolutely... love seeing the input from others too. Hairicane, it is nice to see snowcaps that did not roan out. Both parents on that mare are Appy? And really interesting pattern on King....

Ok, so if a varnish roan is sired by a leopard, and is bred to another roan who is out of a leopard, you are telling me that it can never produce a leopard? I guess I am having difficulty understanding that as the genetics ARE there- you cant just erase what is in horses background. When we had the full sized horses, our stallion had a blanket with peacock spots to his withers. His sire was also a blanketed stallion. His dam a leopard. He was bred to a mare that was a roan with spots over her hips and the resulting foal was a leopard. Neither parent was a leopard, so how would that gene be passed on then- it was in the background. Perhaps I am just not understanding what you mean.

Keep the pics coming- it is all quite interesting.


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## Becky

Do horses with LP only always have varnish? Or can they have other characteristics with no varnish? I'm trying to figure out how you get appies with no varnish. My new stallion has no apparant varnish. I prefer appys with no visual varnish so they don't lose their color as they mature.


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## hairicane

There are so many questions about appys that are not answered yet. Remember when someone posted about suppressing factors? Minis seem in general to have many more suppressing factors than full sized appys do. And blacks and black based in general have more suppressing factors than the red based horses. So you could have a mini appy that is black based and it might show very little appy color BUT it could carry a loud pattern and its loud color is mostly suppressed. Now if that horse is bred and does not pass on all the suppression factors but does pass on its loud appy genes then the foal could end up super loud. Thats why sometimes 2 very minimal colored appy DO produce a loud foal.

HG--- both parents on both the sorrel snowcap mare and the blk few/spot filly are appy. But 1 parent of each of them is minimally colored.


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## hairicane

Becky said:


> Do horses with LP only always have varnish? Or can they have other characteristics with no varnish? I'm trying to figure out how you get appies with no varnish. My new stallion has no apparant varnish. I prefer appys with no visual varnish so they don't lose their color as they mature.



Good luck with that Becky! Appy breeders have been working on that for years now with limited success. But with the Doctors at "the Appaloosa Projects" years of hard work we are closer than ever before to having firm answers and hopefully genetic tests to know what your appy can and cannot produce. And anyone interested in appys should subscribe to the Appy projects Class room website. You will learn sooooo much! The Drs have been out to my farm several times so far and I learn so much from talking to them each time. And the online discussions are great. Once u subscribe u can go in and read all the archives and really learn all there is to know so far. Then u can ask questions about your own horses and send pix and info and they will answer to the best of their knowledge. That is invaluable!


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## Becky

> And blacks and black based in general have more suppressing factors than the red based horses.


I agree with that. I've certainly found that to be true in pintos. Generally your loudest colors/patterns are in the red based horses.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

HGFarm said:


> Absolutely... love seeing the input from others too. Hairicane, it is nice to see snowcaps that did not roan out. Both parents on that mare are Appy? And really interesting pattern on King....
> 
> Ok, so if a varnish roan is sired by a leopard, and is bred to another roan who is out of a leopard, you are telling me that it can never produce a leopard? I guess I am having difficulty understanding that as the genetics ARE there- you cant just erase what is in horses background. When we had the full sized horses, our stallion had a blanket with peacock spots to his withers. His sire was also a blanketed stallion. His dam a leopard. He was bred to a mare that was a roan with spots over her hips and the resulting foal was a leopard. Neither parent was a leopard, so how would that gene be passed on then- it was in the background. Perhaps I am just not understanding what you mean.



This is where it gets complicated.





The leopard pattern gene has a variety of expressed "patterns", so it doesn't always "look" leopard. In your case above, the stallion with the blanket with spots to his withers actually was carrying the leopard gene, even though he didn't "look" like a leopard. Remember unless a horse is homozygous for a gene (has two copies), the foal has a 50/50 chance of inheriting that gene. So if the parent of your varnish roan was a leopard but only had one copy(not homozygous) of the leopard gene, the foal might not inherit it, but still inherit the LP gene and so you get an appy roan.

Here is the link to the diagram of how varied the leopard gene can appear physically on a horse, while genetically they carry the gene for leopard, and below that is a description from The Appaloosa Horse Project website.

http://www.appaloosaproject.info/images/photoalbum/4/PATNImage.jpg

<<<3. PATN-1: The “Leopard Family” Gene Study

White patterning in Appaloosas appears to be a polygenic (many gene) trait. If this is indeed the case, an Appaloosa will display some amount of white Appaloosa-type patterning at birth if it has inherited both LP and one or more of the genes that help to produce Appaloosa-type patterning. We have given the generic name “PATN” (for “pattern”) to these genes. Phenotype-based evidence suggests there are a variety of these, with varying amounts of effect. Some seem to produce large amounts of patterning, while others produce minor amounts.

The Appaloosa Project is working to identify the gene responsible for very high levels of expression found in “leopard lines”. These are families of horses that have very high white pattern levels, and include leopard and near-leopard as well as fewspot and near-fewspot horses. This gene’s proposed name is PATN-1 (see above image for proposed continuum of expression). The study involves analysis of DNA collected from large half-sibling families produced by fewspot stallions, bred to non-Appaloosa mares.>>>>

Aren't appy genetics so simple, LOL! Whenever I start to try and explain what I understand, I realize it's so darn complicated, I'm not sure I fully understand what I thought I did!!


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## HGFarm

Interesting Hairicane on the parents of your snowcaps that are not roaning. Apparently the minimal Appies that are the parent are perhaps not passing on the roaning then, since they are not doing it, and that combined with the genetics on the other side... you may have a great combo there without the roaning thing going on.

Also interesting about red based vs. black based showing more color or louder color variations on the red ones, even with the pintos. I will have to pay more attention to that....!!

I tell you, it sure is an interesting world genetically, but I think it's a sight to behold when you see a herd of multicolored Appies and every single one is so different than the next!


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## Ridgerunner

Even though I've been breeding mini apps for over 10 years now, I'm learning a lot from this thread! For instance, I'm surprised at how many people say they get louder color from non appy mares. Why is that? You'd think you'd have more chance of a colored baby when breeding appy to appy. But I'm sure gonna try this out next spring! I'll breed my cremello mares to my appy stallion instead of my solid bay and hopefully get buckskin leopard babies!



Come to think of it, I had a black, frosted blanket stallion for several years, and the only baby he threw that was colored at birth was from a solid mare with characteristics! The others were all born solid and roaned or snowflaked later. Can we keep this thread going all winter?



Sure makes for some interesting reading!


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## Becky

> Come to think of it, I had a black, frosted blanket stallion for several years, and the only baby he threw that was colored at birth was *from a solid mare with characteristics**!*


Wouldn't that have been an appaloosa mare? I 'assumed' when people are talking solid horses, they are referring to those with no appy in the background. But, I could be wrong!

This is a great thread!!


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## Ridgerunner

You're right, Becky! I was thinking 'colored' as opposed to 'solid', but characteristics do qualify her as appy. She's had appy babies by non appy stallions, so there's no doubt about it.


----------



## HGFarm

LOL, maybe if we all compare enough notes and pictures, we can figure out something, LOL

I would think that the more you outcross to non Appaloosa, the weaker the color link is going to be. As far as getting loud color from solid mares, I would consider that luck, hahaha but have known it to happen more than once! A friend has a non Appy stallion, who was bred to a mare with Appy characteristics and only a few white hairs- and had a colt with a HUGE blanket and spots! Also have another friend who has a little varnish roan mare she bred to a solid stallion and also got a colt with a huge blanket and spots. What is up with that?!! (as I glanced around at my then solid foals, lol)

I do still breed for conformation first, with good movement, but it would be nice to combine that with some loud color from time to time. I am hoping my fewcap colt Spot will help with some of that. He is really refined, has a neck that goes on forever and nice overall balance. Now I just have to wait til he grows up!!


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## ohmt

Castlerock, do you by chance have any pictures of a horse that has silvered out? I've never heard of a silver black horse being born black and then silvering out...I have a silver black appy mare (solid with characteristics) and she was born her platinum silver color. She doesn't have any spots (I've wetted her down to make sure) but she's out of my varnish mare who doesn't throw a lot of color. I have a silver bay appy filly with the biggest spots across her rump I've ever seen (she was born red with white spots on her rump like the op's stallion). She is 3 and seems to be getting more and more spots-they're not disappearing. I also have a silver bay leopard appaloosa stallion who is covered in black spots from head to toe and they are black black.

Now you've got me worried! I am hoping that silver doesn't really hide color as I seem to have a bit of it!


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## Becky

> I would think that the more you outcross to non Appaloosa, the weaker the color link is going to be.


I would certainly think that to be true. At least it is with pintos. Following the laws of genetics, breeding one pinto to a solid with no pinto, gives you a 50% chance of getting pinto (heterozygous). Breeding two pintos together increases that chance and could give you a homozygous individual (if they are both carrying the same pattern and pass it on).

Again, following the laws of genetics, breeding two appaloosas together carrying like patterns would increase the odds of getting that pattern in the resulting offspring. The foal could be minimal or maximum in it's expression depending on what other genes come into play.


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## HGFarm

Well do we have some fun experimenting to do here!! LOL

I have never heard of a horse silvering out either. My silvers have all been that at birth and either developed Appy roaning, varnish, etc... My silver filly is just LOADED with dapples now. But they have all stayed silver, like they were born. Maybe it is not a 'silver' gene that is making yours fade but something else or a strong roaning gene? Do you have any picture examples?

Any body else have any pics of color changes or examples of patterns to show?


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## ohmt

I'll add one more to show an appy+non appy cross

Dam: Solid chestnut, zero appy breeding (GMB and Contender bred)

Sire: Bay Leopard Appy







And their 2010 colt-born solid chestnut, no characteristics, identical to his dam

When I clipped him at 2 months I noticed his face was getting a lot of white hairs. When he kept getting more and more I realized he was varnishing. When I clipped him I found a ton of appy spots across his rump and saw this the varnishing was not just on his face, but was happening all over his body. These are terrible pictures because my clipper died half way through, but you can see all the spots and varnishing.


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## AnnaC

Having just read through all 9 pages of this topic, I am totally bog eyed, full of newfound information and having so much fun that I cant resist in joining in!!

So here are a few of mine - have dug out all sorts of pics from the years, so please dont look at the quality/backgrounds/quick pasture snaps etc - we are just talking colour combinations here ok? LOL!!

First Daddy - Argentine Falabella import - liver chestnut (uk speak!) with 4 white socks and a black 3" diameter circle on left buttock - throws colour.






Next - Mummy - Varnished near Leopard (????)






First foal from these two - filly (guess who's the g.g/sire of Mummy LOL!!)






Then they had a colt who started like this.....






Continued on next post - got too many pics apparently!!

Anna


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## AnnaC

To continue.....

And as a 2y.o looked like this......











Both these first two foals were squat, tubby little bodies and are still the same as now 5 and 3 year olds, but then we got this - pic taken at a day old........ a leggy, refined bodied BAY filly!






She is now a 2 y.o and a bay/dun, still refined and with absolutely NO white anywhere! So where did she come from LOL!!





More combinations to come tomorrow - it's 11pm here in the uk and I'm bushed! May this topic run and run.








Anna.


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## Becky

Hey, Diane, glad to see you bring this thread back to life!

I don't know about your horses, but I have seen many appaloosas that do carry the grey gene. Not varnish, but true grey. We used to not know for sure, but with the advent of a DNA test now for grey, there's no reason not to know. Personally, I wouldn't want grey in my appaloosa herd as they really lose the color fast. And the grey rings around the eyes of a foal make me suspicious, however, I think the varnish pattern can have grey rings around the eyes early on? I don't know about the other patterns. Maybe someone can enlighten me!


----------



## Becky

I have another question - regarding roan vs varnish. I've seen appys that are roaned, but sometimes I'm not sure if they are varnish or true roan. What's the best way to tell?


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## ohmt

Becky, most apps that just have varnish will end up almost white with just color around their knees and maybe a little on their face and some dark hairs thrown in here and there. True roans will be light, but they have dark legs, and no roaning on their face. Most of my apps that varnish start with varnishing on their face. Also, checking for striped hooves, mottling, sclera will clear things up there too.

Diane-your appy stallion is not a true grey if he still has those dark spots on his rump. The rings around the eyes are from varnish. Your horses are probably varnishing out and losing their color. I wouldn't think they'd lose spots from it though. I'm pretty sure the silver is not causing the spots to disappear either. The mare you pictured that is giving you all those loud foals is silver and it looks like 2 of the 3 foals you have pictured are silver. My silvers haven't lost any spots due to it either.


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## HGFarm

Hahahaha, no Diane, you certainly didnt kill the post, LOL (maybe it just grayed out? oh I just crack myself up sometimes.



)

ohmt, I agree with your response here on both... And no, a varnish will not wipe out the spots- they will stay while the rest of the 'background' seems to varnish out. The varnish horses though also have a little different look- not flea bitten or gray like a true gray, and yes, their legs and all the places where the varnish marks are darker... those dont fade out like on a true gray.

I have never seen a silver though, born dark with the 'white rings' around it's eyes. Usually a silver that light (and I have had a couple that were snowcaps)were born that light- they didnt roan out or fade- they stayed what they were born as. However both did get some roaning and varnish marks in time too, so almost looked white they were so light of a silver, but their varnish marks on their heads, legs etc.... were still there.

The white rings are usually tell tale (I have seen it on pintos too) of a true gray that will end up white and lose all it's color. However I have also seen foals born (not just Appy either) that had NO ring around the eye, and were indeed graying out with age! So you can't depend on that either, LOL

With a true gray, everything including the spots will disappear. You may still see where they were for a while, or they become so faded, but the skin pigment under the hair is still there, etc.....

I guess have them tested or request pics of the parents and if one is a gray, I stay away too as I want any color to remain as much as possible. My friends had a lovely black and white colt born- a wildly marked pinto... he really had unique markings but alas, his dam was a gray, and you guessed it- he lost it all. They were kinda bummed.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

Actually appaloosas with the grey gene can take a "lifetime" to loose their spots, it doesn't always happen quickly which is why they are so hard to determine for sure if it's roaning or going grey.

Here is my previous stallion, now retired and became a gelding partially because Sheila Archer was pretty sure he carried the grey gene, prior to the test being available. She said it could take years for his spots to fade, and he is 10 years old now and his spots are about the same. A little bit more white mixed in with the spots on his head/neck so they dark centers are slowly getting smaller.

I think this photo was taken when he was about 5-6 years old, notice the "halo's" around the spots, and how the center is darker, and how the spots on his face aren't crisp and dark. Those are all signs of greying. I can't remember now all the reasons why they greying process would take longer on him, but I know one was because he was homozygous for black.


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## Becky

Wow, Kim, I would never have guessed that the stallion you pictured is grey! With spots as vivid as his, I would never have thought grey. Thanks for posting that.


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## ohmt

Kim, I have never heard of any of those signs to be indication of grey. Sheila archer would know more about than me though! I've seen many apps go grey, and they were just like if a pinto were to go grey. The halo marks are common on appaloosas and pintos-I have had quite a few black pintos with them and my bay leopard has a few like that as well. They were the ones that were black black, no fading. If I remember correctly, your stallion is toyland bred. I really don't think laurie would introduce any grey to her appaloosa herd. She's pretty hard core color! Then again, if it takes a while to take effect, maybe she didn't know. I have a brother to your gelding by the way, my few spot. Same sire, different dam.

Something I'll need to read up on I guess! Were you told why some appys go grey and others with the gene don't?


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## HGFarm

I also agree that halo or peacock spots are more common on the big horses and POA's and are certainly not a sign of graying. He does not look faded to me at all. I also agree that Toyland is pretty 'in the know' about color and not breeding grays with the colored ones. What color were his sire and dam? If either did not gray out, he is certainly not a gray!

I agree that some horses gray within a few short months, and some take several years, but you can see it distinctly happening, though sometimes it is slower- there is still white hairs coming in ALL OVER from nose to feet and the color slowly fades.


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## HGFarm

LOL, Diane, you make me laugh.

I agree, with dilutes it is hard enough to get contrasting color that will stand out and dont need the roaning in there to lighten it all, though any spots that are there will stay. And I agree that unless you have loud spots or something to go with it, the varnish gene can really wash out some Minis. I have to say, I dont remember our big horses that were varnish roans totally washing out like the Minis do either- they still kept quite a bit of color on their entire bodies. (In fact we had one mare whose nickname was Mildy. It was short for mildew because that is what her roan body looked like, LOL) One of these days I need to get some more pics scanned of some other color patterns.


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## Ridgerunner

I'm sure glad to see this thread brought back to life!



With all the discussion about the varnish versus true roan gene, I have a question. The stallion I had for several years that threw only solids that varnished out later, exept for the one colt that was born colored. One of his daughters that I've kept started getting roany as a weanling. She roaned out heavily all over EXCEPT her points! Her head and lower legs are black with NO white hairs. Where'd that come from? She looks just like a true roan, but it has to be varnish because she had a colt this spring by my non appy stallion and he has all the characteristics. No white hairs yet, but I expect he'll varnish or snowflake, since his dam has some snowflakes too.


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## ohmt

Ridgerunner-could be varnish AND roan working together? Do you have a picture of the mare that you could post?


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## Sandee

I have posted these pictures a couple of times so hope I'm not going overboard here by posting them again. However, I'm finding this discussion very interesting and even finally looked up the Appaloosa site. I wasn't going to breed but now am considering breeding my mare and stallion as I enjoy watching them learn as I work with them. Of course, a good looking - smart horse (that's hoping for the mare's genes there) would be the best outcome.

Stallion didn't look Appy in first 2 years and even now only has mottling in only a few places but he seems to throw Appy. He does seem to have a few TINY white spots that weren't there before each year when we clip in spring.






Paired with a (phenotype-roan)mare with flaxen mane and tail; they had this guy:






Who around 3 turned into this guy:





Paired with a black mare (or a black bay) they had this guy who looked like the stallion at birth:






But by 2 or 3 developed black spots and they have become more predominant.






My stallion seems to be one of those that carry the genes App gene but does not display it. Hope they finally get a test for all these crazy colors.


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## Becky

Sandee, there's no doubt in my mind that your stallion carries appaloosa genes (in addition to his obvious tobiano). From the picture you posted of him, it appears to me that he has mottling around his muzzle and eyes. The coloring on his offspring are definitely appaloosa!


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## Ridgerunner

OHMT, I don't think it could be true roan, as neither parent was. It's just odd to me that she never roaned on her points like all my other varnish roans have. I seem to be picture posting challenged, but you can see her on my website. She's on the Sales page, Ridgerunners Hope Springs Eternal.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

> The halo marks are common on appaloosas and pintos-I have had quite a few black pintos with them and my bay leopard has a few like that as well. They were the ones that were black black, no fading. If I remember correctly, your stallion is toyland bred. I really don't think laurie would introduce any grey to her appaloosa herd.


His are not true halo spots, they look similar to them, but the dark center of the spot gets a little smaller each year, and the spots on his face the white increases in them a little bit each year. Sheila said his rump spots might not ever change. You can see from his face head and neck the spots look faded, then they are strong black in the back, that is a clue because it is the progression of greying that starts at the head. Sheila thought is was coming thru his dam Toyland Lollapaloosa, not his sire. Grey can hide on the appaloosas, that's why I'm happy they now have a test available!


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## drk

I've been breeding Appaloosas for about 9 years now. My main herd sire was born a true leopard. He was completely spotted from head to toe at birth. I searched for quality fillies and mares that were loaded with appaloosa top and bottom to be my broodmares. I especially looked for lots of leopards in their pedigrees. I do however stay away from Varnish, Roans, Snowflakes, and Especially any appy's with the grey gene in their pedigree. "Just my preference"

To date I have gotten some nice color but have also gotten solids out of two leopards. I agree with HG that breeding appys is a crap shoot. It's like opening a present every time and not knowing what is going to be inside till it's opened. But for me that's the fun of breeding appaloosas.

In 2009 Tino and Charina gave me my dream colt. A TRUE FEWSPOT. Now this is one thing appy breeders learn the hard way is what is a TRUE FEWSPOT!!! I'm sure I'm not the only one out there that has been sold a FEWSPOT to find out it really was a roaned out appy...LOL

Well here is my TRUE FEWSPOT "DRK ONE SPOT AT A TIME"

At birth and a couple days old...












Here he is now in 2010






I bred Tino "Leopard stallion last year to my fewspot mare and this was the resulting foal.

"DRK ALL THE RIGHT SPOTS"






I bred Tino "leopard" to a near leopard mare and this was the resulting foal.

"DRK TINOS LIL TRIXIE"






This is the sire of the above foals "Toyland Tino Trix"






I will have more to tell when my fewspot starts siring foals. For now I have gotten mixed color breeding leopard to leopard with no consistency whatsoever. I've gotten solids, fewcaps, blankets and a fewspot.

fun, fun, fun !!!!

Best of Luck to you Becky !!!


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## palsminihorses

drk said:


> I've been breeding Appaloosas for about 9 years now. My main herd sire was born a true leopard. He was completely spotted from head to toe at birth. I searched for quality fillies and mares that were loaded with appaloosa top and bottom to be my broodmares. I especially looked for lots of leopards in their pedigrees. I have gotten some nice color but have also gotten solids out of two leopards. I agree with HG that breeding appys is a crap shoot. It's like opening a present every time and not knowing what is going to be inside till it's opened. But for me that's the fun of breeding appaloosas.
> 
> In 2009 Tino and Charina gave me my dream colt. A TRUE FEWSPOT. Now this is one thing appy breeders learn the hard way is what is a TRUE FEWSPOT!!! I'm sure I'm not the only one out there that has been sold a FEWSPOT to find out it really was a roaned out appy...LOL
> 
> Well here is my TRUE FEWSPOT "DRK ONE SPOT AT A TIME"
> 
> At birth and a couple days old...
> 
> Diane, I have admired your appaloosas for several years!! You have an awsome breeding program, and I'll be looking forward to seeing the foals by
> 
> your beautiful fewspot colt!!
> 
> Pam


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## drk

palsminihorses said:


> drk said:
> 
> 
> 
> I've been breeding Appaloosas for about 9 years now. My main herd sire was born a true leopard. He was completely spotted from head to toe at birth. I searched for quality fillies and mares that were loaded with appaloosa top and bottom to be my broodmares. I especially looked for lots of leopards in their pedigrees. I have gotten some nice color but have also gotten solids out of two leopards. I agree with HG that breeding appys is a crap shoot. It's like opening a present every time and not knowing what is going to be inside till it's opened. But for me that's the fun of breeding appaloosas.
> 
> In 2009 Tino and Charina gave me my dream colt. A TRUE FEWSPOT. Now this is one thing appy breeders learn the hard way is what is a TRUE FEWSPOT!!! I'm sure I'm not the only one out there that has been sold a FEWSPOT to find out it really was a roaned out appy...LOL
> 
> Well here is my TRUE FEWSPOT "DRK ONE SPOT AT A TIME"
> 
> At birth and a couple days old...
> 
> Diane, I have admired your appaloosas for several years!! You have an awsome breeding program, and I'll be looking forward to seeing the foals by
> 
> your beautiful fewspot colt!!
> 
> Pam
> 
> 
> 
> Thank You Pam, I'm very excited about "Tater". That is his barn name "Tater Tot"...LOL
> 
> He is a beautiful young stallion and I feel blessed to have him.
Click to expand...


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## Becky

Hey, Diane, I was wondering when you were going to join this thread! Love, love your appaloosas!!


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## drk

Becky said:


> Hey, Diane, I was wondering when you were going to join this thread! Love, love your appaloosas!!


Thank You Becky, I hardly have any time to get on here anymore...I'm actually home sick from work today and that's why I'm able to reply and check out to see what was happening on here.

Suzanne's mare is Gorgeous !!!


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## Becky

Sorry to hear you are sick, but glad you could chime in!

Yes, I love Suzannes' Fancy too.



I'm really looking forward to the day she's crossed with All The Right Spots. What a foal that should be!


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## drk

Becky said:


> Sorry to hear you are sick, but glad you could chime in!
> 
> Yes, I love Suzannes' Fancy too.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm really looking forward to the day she's crossed with All The Right Spots. What a foal that should be!


Yes, I agree ! Spots has lots of spots behind him !


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## hairicane

I would urge anyone that is not sure if their horse carries the grey gene to have it tested before breeding it into your appy program. The test is simple and cheap and will save u much heartache. I started in mini appys with a black roan appy mare that really didnt show her true color(gray) for many years. In fact she was over 10 years old before I was sure. I sold her but know her current owner and now at about 15 years old she is pure white(grey). I also dont like to use true non appy roans in the appy program as the roan will fade out the appy spots, not totally, but as someone else said who wants a faded out appy? I sold a really beautiful stallion in the past once I saw his appy spots roaning out, UGH!!! Your best chance for color in your foals is a homozygous hopefully loud pattern carrying stallion/mare bred to another appy.

I am now facing new challenges as I used to breed appy to appy mostly for years. But now since I am showing in halter and driving and we all know most appys just dont have what it takes to win Nationally in halter. So I am trying to do some outcrosses to halter and driving quality non appys. I know I will get less colored foals but hope to improve overall quality and still keep my spots!


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## Viki

Love this thread! Here is my little guy. As a weanling....blanket.






And now, as a 2 yr old. In person, you can see black spots on his front end & neck!






He will be breeding mares in 2011! Wish me luck! Breeding Appy & non Appy mares.





Viki


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## HGFarm

Diane, you better take care of yourself and get well!! I too can't wait to see what your fewspot sires, knowing what is behind him!!

Nice Viki, he is a cute little guy.

LOL Hairicaine, I think some other Appy owners would beg to differ with you about not doing well at halter.......but I will let them join in on their own!


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## drk

HGFarm said:


> Diane, you better take care of yourself and get well!! I too can't wait to see what your fewspot sires, knowing what is behind him!!
> 
> Nice Viki, he is a cute little guy.
> 
> LOL Hairicaine, I think some other Appy owners would beg to differ with you about not doing well at halter.......but I will let them join in on their own!


Laurie, After 2 miserable days I'm just starting to feel like I'm coming back to life



I guess Someone at work felt they had to share this illness with me UGH...

How is Spot doing ??

I'm with you Laurie, I think there are MANY MANY Gorgeous Quality Appys out there that can run with the blue in Halter.... Just need to get them into the ring


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## hairicane

Didnt mean to step on toes folks, I know there are some very beautiful well conformed appys out there that have won at National and World shows, Piano Man and Catch come to mind and Catch is also winning in driving



. Also many other people have lovely ones sitting at home and my own McCoy was all show fit and brought to his 1st show as a 2 year old. The lessees of him were told to just take him home as appys dont win in conformation classes. Sadly the folks didnt even bother to show him and gave up. That was about 8 years ago but I do believe there is a huge prejudice against appys at the mini shows among many judges. So in a way the appys have to be even better built than a solid color in the halter classes to even get a look. That said I dont think even MOST of our better mini appys are going to be a World/National champion. If we are being honest most need some help in the head and neck department and of course one of the top professional handlers in the country seem to really help



.

Believe me Im trying to breed me some Appy National Champs LOL!! Had a few born this year that might come close, now if I just had the money to really promote one. Oh well that's a whole different problem



Its a real challenge and know there is a dedicated group of us breeders out there working hard on it. Rio my wonderful driving appy is a National and a Res. National champion in driving and he also is a National Top 10 winner in youth halter geldings! I do KNOW we have some talented and beautiful appy minis out there! And I love them!!!!!


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## ohmt

I absolutely agree with you hairicane. The appies have come a LONG way the past few years, but most still aren't where they should be conformation wise and that's because there are too many people still breeding for just color. I bought my few spot because I loved his proportions, which are fantastic, and because of his amount of leg. He has the amount of leg for a horse a few inches taller than him and he passes those long legs to his foals-love them! But, his head is plain (typical big appy jaw) and his neck set is just ok. I breed him to my very best non-appy mares to get the conformation I like with the appy pattern. I am pretty happy so far. My mares do such an awesome job fixing that appy head and neck set and my few spot adds the legs. My foals might not be the loudest appies, but they will never be the ugly headed, thick necked appies I see so often.

Now, not saying all appies are like that, but gosh there are too many that are. Each year it seems like there are more and more heading in the right direction though. I am a huge fan of catch and piano man and there are many forum members with appy breeding programs that I love as well. Can't wait to see all the beautiful appy babies next year!


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## drk

hairicane said:


> Didnt mean to step on toes folks, I know there are some very beautiful well conformed appys out there that have won at National and World shows, Piano Man and Catch come to mind and Catch is also winning in driving
> 
> 
> 
> . Also many other people have lovely ones sitting at home and my own McCoy was all show fit and brought to his 1st show as a 2 year old. The lessees of him were told to just take him home as appys dont win in conformation classes. Sadly the folks didnt even bother to show him and gave up. That was about 8 years ago but I do believe there is a huge prejudice against appys at the mini shows among many judges. So in a way the appys have to be even better built than a solid color in the halter classes to even get a look. That said I dont think even MOST of our better mini appys are going to be a World/National champion. If we are being honest most need some help in the head and neck department and of course one of the top professional handlers in the country seem to really help
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Believe me Im trying to breed me some Appy National Champs LOL!! Had a few born this year that might come close, now if I just had the money to really promote one. Oh well that's a whole different problem
> 
> 
> 
> Its a real challenge and know there is a dedicated group of us breeders out there working hard on it. Rio my wonderful driving appy is a National and a Res. National champion in driving and he also is a National Top 10 winner in youth halter geldings! I do KNOW we have some talented and beautiful appy minis out there! And I love them!!!!!


Everybodies toes are fine Jen...LOL At least mine were the last time I looked at them





Speaking of show quality and appaloosas.. I had the most GORGEOUS colt this year out of my black leopard mare and Piano Man. Well he IS the most refined, Gorgeous with a Tiny head, Tiny Super Tippy Ears, Nice length of neck.. I'm talking GORGEOUS and he is solid black









Gotta love those appy surprises





He is so superb that I am keeping him to breed to my fewspot and snowcap mares. And will try him with my leopards too. Would love to get his unbelievable refined conformation in my breeding. I have lots of refinement but he is the total package less/ the color



We will see how this goes ....


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## HGFarm

Pet peeve= folks refering to the 'typical Appy head'. The original Appy head was NOT ugly by any means. It is a product of simply poor breeding by some. Not ALL Appies have ugly heads. I have also seen not so keen heads on solids and pintos a lot so I am not sure why everyone points to the Appies about it.

Sorry, just had to get that off my chest, LOL

My toes are fine too Jen.





Diane, glad to hear you will try crossing your nice black colt with some of your homozygous mares. If I had some of those mares, I would have taken him off your hands, LOL I think you will get some wonderful babies from him.


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## Sandee

hairicane said:


> Didnt mean to step on toes folks, I know there are some very beautiful well conformed appys out there that have won at National and World shows, Piano Man and Catch come to mind and Catch is also winning in driving
> 
> 
> 
> . Also many other people have lovely ones sitting at home and my own McCoy was all show fit and brought to his 1st show as a 2 year old. The lessees of him were told to just take him home as appys dont win in conformation classes. Sadly the folks didnt even bother to show him and gave up. That was about 8 years ago but I do believe there is a huge prejudice against appys at the mini shows among many judges. So in a way the appys have to be even better built than a solid color in the halter classes to even get a look. That said I dont think even MOST of our better mini appys are going to be a World/National champion. If we are being honest most need some help in the head and neck department and of course one of the top professional handlers in the country seem to really help
> 
> 
> 
> .
> 
> Believe me Im trying to breed me some Appy National Champs LOL!! Had a few born this year that might come close, now if I just had the money to really promote one. Oh well that's a whole different problem
> 
> 
> 
> Its a real challenge and know there is a dedicated group of us breeders out there working hard on it. Rio my wonderful driving appy is a National and a Res. National champion in driving and he also is a National Top 10 winner in youth halter geldings! I do KNOW we have some talented and beautiful appy minis out there! And I love them!!!!!


Believe me, they win at Nationals. Appys walked away with the color class this year at Nationals. If you didn't see I believe that 4 or 5 out of the top ten were Appy. Usually my Silver Dapple stands a chance in color but not this year!


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## hairicane

Diane your blk Piano Man son is lovely! And hopefully some color will come later. I have 3 so far solid appy bred foals born this year and they are all nice! Im sure hoping they get some color. One is sired by my Res. Nat. Ch. Ericas Big City Bank On Me HOF (solid Buckskin) out of a leopard mare. That combo gave me a buckskin filly with blue eyes. Have no idea where the blue eyes came from. My other 2 solids are sired by my appy Sids Rebel son, McCoy, out of appy mares, go figure. But all are lovely and Im proud to say I bred them. Thats the mystery of Appys u just never know.

I realized I never even posted all my 2010 foals on here and never posted our 2010 Nationals wins. Geez I better get busy.


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## hairicane

Hey Sandee!! I wasn't talking about the color classes as appys usually RULE in the color classes. Thats why I said conformation halter classes. In multi color classes all that loud appy flash is usually a good thing, lol. But in the regular halter classes I almost think some judges get blinded by the appy and cant see through all that color to the real horse underneath. Not sure if that makes sense the way I described it.


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## Becky

One thing that really strikes me about the appaloosa stallion I just got, is his ultra refined body type and his tiny head. Something that I haven't seen a lot of in years past in a number of appaloosas. While he doesn't have a lot of color, his conformation is excellent and halter quality. It's great to see appaloosa breeders now breeding for more than just color!! However, lots of spots is icing on the cake!


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## ohmt

Sorry HG-didn't mean to step on toes either. Yes, there are a lot of solids and pintos with some not so pretty faces either. Appies DO often have a big jaw and boxy profile. At least a good majority of the ones I've seen do. That might not mean much since I'm sure I've only seen a few compared to the total. It took me a long time (3 years) to find an appy stallion with a head that I like that was for sale though. Emphasis on the 'what I like' part. Now, a nice head is just perspective. People like different things. I also don't like most hackney heads, but there are many who love them. So I shouldn't have said a typical appy head is 'bad' as my opinion is not rule by any means.

I apologize to anybody that I may have offended.


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## sundaymom

I must say I have really enjoyed reading this topic.

Years ago I raised pintos, just for enjoyment, with only one or two foals a year. Then I decided to stop and got rid of just about all my mares except for a couple. Just when my husband was smiling a little to much, I got the wild hair to go appaloosa.

I knew nothing about them except as a young girl had one for riding and always loved them. Can't really explain why rationally (ha!), at this late stage in my life, that I decided to do it.

I can really relate to Kim, for after searching high and low for over a year and a couple of deals gone south, three years ago, I located the stallion I thought would help me the most. I could not afford the appy mares I liked and didn't want the ones I could afford. After sinking a lot into this stallion I too was told he was a gray and should get rid of him. I was blown away but at that point couldn't afford to do much else but keep him. Also, I fell in love with him and didn't want to get rid of him. I decided to breed him as I had these mares and no other stallion. Felt I had a 50/50 chance of color and later could geld him. The three fillies that came were beautiful in conformation and color. Two were outstanding in color. The prettiest black got googles at birth and I cried for I just knew she would gray out. I contacted Jennifer at Hairicane (for I always loved her horses) and though she didn't know me talked me off the ledge. I learned some appy foals have these (if for sure no gray gene) and that these usually fade and then go on to be near or full leopards. Sure enough by 3 months, no googles and she clipped out to be a near leopard.

Anyway not one gray foal. Then the gray test came out and I had GB tested and guess what....NO GRAY GENE.

Being a small breeder, after finding homes this year for the last of my pinto mares, I still wanted both the color and conformation so have brought in a solid mare to breed next year with Siera Dawn and Super Charger blood hoping for just this. I feel like if I can, even if it means bringing in a solid to breed, in order to get better conformation, that then these foals can go into a pure appy breeding program and help it.

I didn't breed last year for I was so worried about the ecconomy and didn't want to be desperate to find homes for my babies. All year I have be emailed and called about do I have any for sale...lol! So taking a leap of faith I bred for next year.

I to am an admirer of DRK and Hairicane horses.


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## HGFarm

Sundaymom you are not the only one I have heard that was told they had a 'gray horse' that was NOT gray!!!!! I am SURE GLAD they have a test now, so people are not selling or gelding their dream horses after being given misinformation.

One thing folks might want to remember in their 'color' programs- whether it's Appy or Pinto, you have to have a gray to get a gray, and if the parents were not grays, neither is your horse. UC Davis mentions that some horses take 6 to 8 years to completely gray out- and I have seen this- some gray within months, some take a few years, but I have NEVER heard of one taking a lifetime or longer, to gray.

The Appy roaning gene is completely different and doesnt look the same as a horse graying out.

Ohmt, my toes are still in tact, LOL

Becky do you have pics of the stallion you just got?? Would love to see him and yes, conformation is always great above color. But the color sure puts icing on the cake!


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## drk

Here is my most treasured mare "BLUE CHIPS FORMALATTIRE MASTERPIECE" She is 31" and SUPER REFINED with a beautiful head, Tiny Tippy Ears and she has a pedigree to die for. I wish I would have shown her in Halter before I started breeding her. Maybe after her 2011 foal I may still give it a try. I think she would do well. She is bred to Alliance Piano Man for 2011. Her sire "BLUE CHIPS ATTRACTIONS MASTERPIECE" has one of the most beautiful heads I've seen on an appy. I'm looking forward to crossing her with my Piamo Man colt from this year when he is ready and "HOPING" for some color since she is a snowcap to top off their outstanding conformation. (notice I said HOPING)...LOL

This will be a test for a solid to throw color with a snowcap... Sometimes yes, sometimes no.. As I say.. It's like opening a present so you just never know.

This is "BLUE CHIPS FORMALATTIRE MASTERPIECE"






This is her sire "BLUE CHIPS ATTRACTIONS MASTERPIECE" owned by BLUE CHIP MINIS in NC


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## drk

HGFarm said:


> Sundaymom you are not the only one I have heard that was told they had a 'gray horse' that was NOT gray!!!!! I am SURE GLAD they have a test now, so people are not selling or gelding their dream horses after being given misinformation.
> 
> One thing folks might want to remember in their 'color' programs- whether it's Appy or Pinto, you have to have a gray to get a gray, and if the parents were not grays, neither is your horse. UC Davis mentions that some horses take 6 to 8 years to completely gray out- and I have seen this- some gray within months, some take a few years, but I have NEVER heard of one taking a lifetime or longer, to gray.
> 
> The Appy roaning gene is completely different and doesnt look the same as a horse graying out.
> 
> Ohmt, my toes are still in tact, LOL
> 
> Becky do you have pics of the stallion you just got?? Would love to see him and yes, conformation is always great above color. But the color sure puts icing on the cake!


Agreed Laurie, I am so glad we have tests to check for grey. It's very tricky to tell visually in these appy's.


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## drk

YES, Becky... Lets see some pictures... Can't wait to see what you have now


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## drk

Becky said:


> Thanks for all the info.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> I really appreciate it.
> 
> What is known about the snowflake pattern? I do know that those are generally born dark and spot more with age. But, are there any known facts about it? Are other patterns involved?
> 
> Here is a picture of the hips of my new stallion. He is developing a few more spots on his sides and back now. I'm assuming he is snowflake only?


Hey Becky, Your stallion may be working on a blanket. I don't think he is a snowflake at all. Those markings don't look like snowflake markings to me. He reminds me of a filly I had here in 2009. She had just a couple weird white markings like his on her rump when born. Today she is still marked very different and I love her. Just wanted to post her pics from birth till now for you to see how she has changed. She is out of a black leopard stallion and a near leopard mare. How old is your stallion? He may color out much more...











If you notice in this next pic you can see dark spots coming in..


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## palsminihorses

drk said:


> If you notice in this next pic you can see dark spots coming in..


Diane, that mare is just stunning!! What unusual markings she has! I love it!!

Pam


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis

Just thought I'd add my appy transformations:

On The Rise Farm Sky Eyes Eagle

Black near leopard/varnish/splash overoloosa

Foal:






Weanling:






Last year as a 8 year old:


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis

And this is one of the colts we had born here.. He's the result of a near leopard/splash crossed on a tobiano/splash mare.

He was born solid black:






Couple months:






Weanling:






Most recent as a 2 year old, clipped he has a real roany blanket up to his withers and tiny ink spots:


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## Becky

> So Becky, what's the next question?? Seems like we're peetering out!


Sorry guys, would have been on here earlier, but I had to take a weanling filly to the vet to have her eyelid sewn back on. Grrrrr..... Happy Halloween!!!!








Here are a couple of pictures of Indian Dreams Spectacular Royalty taken the other day. Mind you, he's hairy with a winter coat, but I think he's pretty impressive.











Diane, drk, I'm thinking he is a blanket now too, and I think he is the pattern that your black filly is, that you posted pics of. I was admiring her on your website recently and thinking Royalty has the same kind of spots she does. Instead of spots, more like streaks. So, my question is, what is _*that*_? As opposed to circular spots??


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## drk

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> Diane,
> 
> Isn't Masterpiece the mare that Ginny leased and got that gorgeous fewspot out of Piano Man?
> 
> She's gorgeous in all areas, and I can't wait to see what the repeat breeding produces! I know I'll be watching!
> 
> ~~Diane at Castle Rock


Yes Diane, That is the mare Ginny got her gorgeous fewspot out of. She is now rebred to him for a 2011 foal for ME !!!! I cannot wait. Plus I miss her alot.


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## drk

Becky said:


> Sorry guys, would have been on here earlier, but I had to take a weanling filly to the vet to have her eyelid sewn back on. Grrrrr..... Happy Halloween!!!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Here are a couple of pictures of Indian Dreams Spectacular Royalty taken the other day. Mind you, he's hairy with a winter coat, but I think he's pretty impressive.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Diane, drk, I'm thinking he is a blanket now too, and I think he is the pattern that your black filly is, that you posted pics of. I was admiring her on your website recently and thinking Royalty has the same kind of spots she does. Instead of spots, more like streaks. So, my question is, what is _*that*_? As opposed to circular spots??


Becky, Trixie keeps getting more and more white coming in and it seems to be filling in around spots that are showing up. So I'm not sure where she will end up in color. And this is the first I've seen this...LOL But your boy has similar markings... And he is VERY NICE !!!!


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## hairicane

He is lovely Becky! I think he and Dianes black filly are the same. Just my theory here but I think the white u are seeing is what there is of a blanket right now and I bet he will end up with lots of red spots like Dianes has except her filly's spots are black. I bet one day he will have so many spots that there is not much white blanket showing and it will be spots almost all overlapping on top of each other. I wonder if they both carry lots of suppression factors since it seems like they are trying to be super loud spotted horses?


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## ohmt

He is lovely Becky! Like I mentioned before, his white spots are exactly like the blanketed fillies I keep getting from my few spot out of non-appy mares. They are born solid with those white spots on their rumps and then slowly it turns into a blanket or I have two that have varnished out and have huge black spots on their rumps instead of the white spots.

Your mare is stunning and I just love her piano man colt this year. Can't wait to see what she gives you next!


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## zoey829

I must say I have enjoyed reading this thread. I have learned so much from those who have posted here. Thanks for all the info and the beautiful pics!!


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## HGFarm

I agree with drk Becky... and from the angle of your pics with that stallion- it almost looks like he has a couple of darker chestnut spots hiding under that winter hair. I too think he is trying to form some type of blanket or something under there. It will be very exciting to see what he will look like in the spring shed out. Oh goodie!



Another box of chocolates!!

I also will be watching drk's mare to see what she has- that Piano Man colt is awesome. I think it would be great to cross your PM colt back to her when he is old enough and see what you get!

Lucky C, those are great examples to show the drastic changes that some horses can do with their color!


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## Becky

> BECKY, WE NEED A NEW QUESTION!!


LOL, Diane! I'm running out of questions, but I sure am enjoying this thread and I'd like to see it keep going.





Here's a question, my new stallion that I've pictured - has the blanket and the spotting you see with a bit more coming in. He has white sclera, but no mottling and no striped feet. How does that affect (if any) his ability to pass on appy coloring? Is that unusual?

And wow, love the pictures of your snowflake mare! What a transformation!!


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## HGFarm

Again I dont know why, but I dont find the mottling and striped feet so obvious in some of the Minis. Some have a tiny bit of mottling that is really barely noticable, some have a LOT. Also, same thing with the striped feet and sometimes it only shows up if they are cleaned and ready for the show ring.

I would be curious if anyone else has noticed with the Minis, but do your chestnuts seem to show less mottling? Mine have! (Not with the big ones or POAs but I have noticed this with the Minis) I have not seen a lot of the chestnut Appies, but a few so dont have a LOT to compare to.

I have not really given it much of a thought though... most of them have some mottling on the genitals, maybe not so much on the face- also look inside the lips..... it may be somewhat suppressed.


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## Sheri Hill

I sure enjoyed all the pics, as I sure love spots too. Had and still have appy big ones and love my spotted lil ones too!

Here are some pics of mine and some of their changes.

Illusion as a foal, clipped after I got him.






Illusion now











Bred to Frosty (here is Frosty)






They had Halle (here is Halle)

as a foal






Halle now


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## Sheri Hill

Illusion bred to Dotty (here is Dotty)






The first was a solid black colt






then the same pairing had this filly Sky (here is Sky, she looks allot like Illusion, even has 2 blue eyes. Halle above had gotten 1 partial blue eye)

Sky as a foal






Sky now











Sky and Illusion


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## Sheri Hill

Then Illusion and Frostay had this colt last year, Feather







Illusion bred to Dawnie (here is Dawnie)






They had this colt, Twee






then this year Illusion and Dawnie had this filly, Dew with some black spots on rump and a few white ones too and lots of varnish roaning starting, will be interesting to clip her next spring!


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## Sheri Hill

Illusion bred to Sunset (here is Sunset)She is homozygous for tobiano as both parents are.






here was Illusion and Sunset foal, a filly, Magic











Illusion bred to Foxie (here is Foxie)






Illusion and Foxie had this colt Spirit






Then Illusion and Foxie had this filly


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## Sheri Hill

Here is another one of Illusion and Foxies filly.






Then bred to Rose (here is Rose, she is a pintaloosa)






Illusion and Rose had this filly, a solid bay.


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## dragonfur

palsminihorses said:


> You can get pinto and/or appy patterns from a pintaloosa!! I bred our pintaloosa stallion to both appy and solid mares. Surprisingly, I got *pinto* foals from my appy mares and got a blanketed foal from one of the solid mares!! Go figure! Like HG said, breeding for appys is a crap shoot......but oh so much fun!!
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Pam


When you mix Appy and pinto, you just never know what combination (or lack of) you will get! My snowflake Appy mare came to me with a solid black filly at side sired by Cross Country's Call Me Awesome, a wild-marked overo stallion. Not a white hair on her!

I saw in a horse magazine (as a kid--MANY years ago), someone bred their paint mare to an Appy stallion and got . . . twins: one Appy, one paint. Imagine their surprise when THOSE two showed up!


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## sundaymom

I'll start for all the appy breeders. Now this post being about color is what I'm addressing. Not needed to say hoping for good conformation also.

I am really hoping with my breedings for next year to see a lot of black based large spotted appaloosas. I don't mind whether it's a blanket, near leopard, or leopard, as long as there are big spots. I prefer large spots to tiny ones and of course hope for spots of any type and not solid with characteristics.

Due to my stallions genetics all the foals, no matter who he breeds to, will have characteristics, somewhere, sooner or later. I have been blessed so far in that GB throws large spots and the majority come that way and able to see after first foal clip.

Two years ago the only filly I was a little dissapointed in (color wise) was one filly born from a solid white pinto with black head with blaze (mare no longer with me). The filly came solid with a small flicked butt and stripped hoofs. However, this fall the owners contacted me and said when they clipped her for a late show in October, they found large spots showing up.

My Stallion GB is bred to the following 5 mares, who you can see on my web site under mares.

Varney...April, KiKi...April, Ebony...March, Chicky...April, and Doodle...April.

The new mare Dusta...June, came bred to a black appaloosa leopard.

No one will be more excited than I am to see what shows up next year.

http://www.ptmminiaturehorses.com


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## HGFarm

I'll jump in here too... I have sold a couple of horses this year, so the only mare I have here that was bred this year of my own is my near leopard mare, bred to my National Top Ten leopard stallion I just sold. Their first cross was a fewcap filly! Woohoo! I also agree that conformation comes first, with color as the icing on the cake.

Here is the sire & dam and their first offspring....











First offspring at a year old:






I am hoping for a near leopard, leopard, another homozygous filly or even a blanket with spots would be awesome.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures

Great idea, who doesn't love to talk about the eagerly anticipated 2011 foals!





CCMF Carousel Carnival, these will be his first two foals so I'm really on pins and needles to see what he produces in conformation and color. He carries the cream gene, so hoping for a buckskin or palomino foal from somebody!






1. Almost Heaven's Frosty Chip, I'm not really sure if she is a snowflake pattern, or roan, I'm leaning towards snowflake.






Bred to a stallion with a small blanket she had a snowcap, and bred to a fewspot paternal brother of Carnival's she produced this girl in 2009, so I'd love something with spots- leopard, blanket or snowcap would be fine too!

Crayonbox Color The Wind, owned/photo by Gayle Wilner






2. Crayonbox Wild River Canyon, she's had a pintaloosa for me every time, when bred to a leopard or fewspot, so of course hoping for a pintaloosa with spots!










This is her 2007 foal, sire was a black leopard, Crayonbox Made You Look


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis

I'll be anxiously watching for the appy foals.. I love my apps, but no longer breeding them, I'm hooked on my pinto boy Doc.. But I'll always have a soft spot for my apps, especially my SPOTS!


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## HGFarm

Ok, so who else has (hopefully) spots in the 'oven'? It'll be fun to see what color combos we all actually do get. And if we are even close, LOL


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## Maple Hollow Farm

Ok I will add my expected spotties





Mars Rosebud is checked in foal to Arions Destinys Magic Trick

Mars:






Magic Trick:






Previous foal from this cross:






I purchased Blue Diamonds Dream Catcher JS exposed to a black near leopard stallion, Angelridge Buck Spotted. Here is Dream but I dont think I can post the picture of the stallion since I dont own him:






I also purchased Monte Carlos Black Diamonds and she is vet checked in foal to BJs Fun Sized Happy Appy a sorrel blanketed stallion, Black Diamonds is a daughter of the gorgeous near leopard Bissel Mounds Monte Carlo, here she is:


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## Maple Hollow Farm

Timberviews Buttons and Bows is checked in foal to COH Echo Express

Buttons:






Echo:






Maple Hollows Bodacious Babe (daughter of Mars Rosebud shown above) is exposed to COH Echo Express.

Babe (Echo is shown above):






Kaycee Babs is vet checked in foal to Arions Magnum P I my pintaloosa driving stallion.

Babs:






Magnum:






R Cee Dream Angel (black pintaloosa) I purchased exposed to Quiet Dells Rowdy King Of Ambition a black pinto stallion.

Angel:


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## Sandee

Wish it didn't take so long for these things to "bake"! I wont' be breeding these two until spring as the mare was my main driving and performance horse this year. This stallion has thrown appy in his two previous foals with solid (phenotypical) mares.






She has what appears to me to be Sabino roaning across her back - doesn't show in this picture.






It's going to be hard waiting (nearly 2 years) to find what color (markings) comes out of this crayonbox combination.


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## HGFarm

Hahahahaha, Diane... I am sure someone would let you know if you did, LOL



I am sure there are more Appy babies than that expected out there!


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## hairicane

I have been working off and on for several days adding needed pix to photobucket so I can post on here, lol. Having problems with our pump and well, ugh! Here are some of our possible 2011 foals.

Bart-- Black few/cap homozygous stallion X Midnight-- Black/no characteristics 1/2 appy

Bart below






2010 leopard foal from the same cross, all their foals have been loud black apps from blankets to leopard






Bart app stallion above X bay Champion Farms Nighthawk grddau.

lost an amazing loud leopard colt born premature this year from this cross

McCoy-- sorrel appy Sids Rebel son, 29" X Lady bay leopard mare

McCoy Below






2010 fewcap filly from this cross






McCoy X Topaz-- sorrel snowflake appy Critter Creek mare

below is a 2010 filly from that cross, I expect her to color up






Lots more others too, lol


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## HGFarm

Hairicaine, my mare Solitaire is half sister to your Bart. He has sure produced some nicely colored foals for you. I do love your little McCoy and that little filly of his is just adorable.


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## hairicane

HGFarm said:


> Hairicaine, my mare Solitaire is half sister to your Bart. He has sure produced some nicely colored foals for you. I do love your little McCoy and that little filly of his is just adorable.



Thanks Laura! McCoy is proving himself to be a very strong producer of beautiful heads and necks among other things. I just love his foals from this year and 2011 will see his largest foal crop for me yet.

I would love to see a pix of your sister to Bart. Do they have the same sire? Bart has thrown a lot of color and he is the one that seems to make the loudest babies bred to solid non appy mares, go figure!


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## Tony

I have enjoyed reading this thread over the weeks, but hadn't taken the time to add to it, but will today.

There was some discussion of leopards. Here are two that we had this year: Little America's Pinnacle of Joy and Little America's Festival of Joy. Their sire is Little America's Kickapoo Joy Boywho is a leopard. Both of them are out of SOLID mares with no app characteristics. Both mares had an app sire but solid dams. The colts are actually 3/4 brothers.

Sire:





Dam:





Pinnacle -





Dam:





Festival -





My first app, Little America's Sesquicentennial Tex, which I bred in 1986 produced 45% app coloring when bred to solid mares with no app background. By the way he is the maternal grandsire of both of these colts.


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## hairicane

More upcoming 2011 foals if all goes well

McCoy (Sids Rebel Son)






Bred to Jolene a bay based pintaloosa mare--Jolene shown below with filly sired by Orion son






McCoy (pictured above) Bred to a Buckskin dun Champion Farms Nighthawk graddau- not appy bred

shown below with previous foal from different stallion






McCoy bred to Cheyenne a blk near leopard- She is an Orion and Yellow Diamond Little Feather grd dau.






Below is the 2010 filly from this cross, Love her!


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## drk

I have several mares bred to Tino and one to Alliance Piano Man

Toyland Tino Trix..






Mares bred to Tino for 2011..

Toyland Charina..






Six Gems Sheza Spotted Sensation..






Six Gems Baby Trinket...






This one I am very excited about..

Alliance Piano Man..






Bred to Blue Chips Formalattire Masterpiece


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## Manyspots

I am enjoying this post! Tony I like the looks of Pinnacle too! Diane K. if you don't get some few spot foals in 2011 I will be shocked! You certainly have made some great crosses, please let me know when the foals start comming! We haven't bred many for 2011, but have plans to breed a lot for 2012 and are excited about those! Lavonne


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## SHANA

I have 5 mares bred to my leopard appy stallion, CN Kiss This, for 2011.







The mares are:

*Risque Fishers Winter Sky*, appy mare, first foal in 2010 was a appy colt out of a non-appy stallion.

*Unquestionably Cute Jypsy Rose SPH*, pinto mare with a appy dam






*Sharptails Peanut Butter*, appy mare






*Quarter Scales She Can Dance*, pinto mare






*Shadybrook Raven*, buckskin mare






I am excited to see these foals.


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## hairicane

Ok everyone after all our talking on this post please read the announcement about the Appaloosa Project. They will now be able to test to see if your solid appy foal will EVER color up or at least be an appy with appy characteristics. That means we will know if it will be able to throw appy foals!! This is GREAT news!! Now it cant tell u how loud your horse will end up but its a huge step. Oh yes and it will be able to tell if your appy is homozygous for the LP gene and if it is that horse will throw almost 100% appaloosa foals.



LIFE IS GOOD!!!


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## Lost Spoke Ranch

Ok, I'll jump in here!

We didn't breed much this year. Our two boys "Catch" and Lightning" were busy on the show circuit all year through the World and "Legend" was the only one home and bred three mares.

CCMF Legacy's Legend





The mares are:

Southbrooke's Cinnamon Spice (you can see where Catch got his pretty head)






Iles Annabelle Ace






JTR Spotted Horses Exotica






Dawn


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