# Newbies WAKE UP



## Tab (Mar 29, 2011)

Have any of you experienced difficulty in selling horses lately or ever? My horses have plenty of food so it isn't imperative that I sell even giving our current situation. However, I am noticing that we are having difficulty selling breed-wide. The abuse and neglect cases have also skyrocketed because of this. While it's easy to judge, and some of them deserve to be judged, we have to put ourselves in their shoes. Perhaps they lost their job and have to pay $25 per hoof trimming, $2 per bale of hay, $15 per bag of feed, $50 plus for vet work per horse, $100s in registration fees, etc. and also have to feed their families. Give them away you say? But what if nobody wants them because they cannot afford the associated fees just to own a pet.

For newbies: you *CANNOT *make money selling horses, not even in the BEST of economies. Expect to keep and be responsible for those adorable babies that you will not sell. Horses can live to be 30. Expect to feed, care for, groom, trim, and vet that adorable baby for up to 30 years.

Do you want to breed? Don't! The reality is that miniature horses are just _not _selling. If we all bred our horses half as much their value would increase. In 14 years I have only 8 miniature horses and viewing the sheer numbers of miniature horses for sale on the Internet I know they are not selling. I do not mean to offend with this post but I have enough seniority in this breed to know there is a problem when the average value for a gelding in '98 was $500-$1k, a miniature stallion in '98 was probably close to 2k and open mares would go for 3-6k and today some of the best are now going for $500.

Want to breed? Let me save you and everyone else a lot of heartache. Don't.


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## CZP1 (Mar 29, 2011)

Well said Tab! I totally agree.


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## targetsmom (Mar 29, 2011)

I hear you and agree! I even had trouble GIVING away a mare last year that I paid $3,500 for a few years ago. She was ready to show in almost any event except driving, where she was green broke, having been hooked a couple of times with no issues. After three tries I did find her a good home. I figure I would need to get $100,000 for a foal to break even after all our losses and huge vets bills. No, that is NOT a sales pitch LOL - we don't have anything for sale.

In addition to the economics of breeding don't forget the heartache. Losing your foals at ANY age or stage of development can be heartbreaking. Watching a favorite mare in horrific pain, or losing one that you have become attached to is gut-wrenching. Do you have the ability and funds to deal with such a situation if it means thousands of dollars in vet bills and a several hour trip to a clinic?? This is all part of it. Think about all these things and consider where you will bury your losses before you breed (or hope that the stallion gets in with the mares, or feel that it is safe to leave a yearling colt in with the fillies).

Of course it is your choice to breed or not but you should know going in that it is a lot more than just a cute foal. It took us 3 years to get our first live foal and now he is dead too.


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## [email protected] (Mar 29, 2011)

As we were all new once upon a time, it's a tad judgmental to say you can't and I can. BUT, I do agree with you on the reasoning.

There is just so much involved with breeding and the expense, that is my main reason I tell people to really consider it. Also I always encourage new to the breed, to buy the best they can afford if they want to breed, or if they think they may want to breed.

A true pet shouldn't be bred, and the day they have inexpensive spaying for mares, I'll spay ones I don't think are breeding quality. But I also feel most Mini's end up in pet situations regardless of quality, so DON'T BREED WONKY HORSES! Just because they have the equipment doesn't mean they need to use it! It can be conformationally correct, etc., and still be a much loved pet!

I always hear the reasoning well I'll make X back from the foal. Maybe, might, doubtful. First you have a year to care for the mare, and hope for a live healthy foal, all the expenses Tab listed and sell for $500? You've lost a ton of money. When I see double registered Minis for sale for $200, I wonder what they're thinking or why they keep breeding. A/R registration and DNA testing runs close to $100, so I don't care if you trim your own and grow your own hay - isn't your time worth anything? Deworming/vaccination and I think you're over that $200 price.

Hay prices here - $12-18.50 a bale. The good alfalfa I buy $18.50 yesterday, the cheap stuff $12 (tried and horses waste to much). The owner of our feed store said hay is going to be high all year as many farmers are growing grains (cereals) versus grass/hay this year. That's an added cost to consider too.

I will say though in Northern CA, gelding prices are about the same as they've always been. People either really want them or don't. The prices have always averaged $500-1,500 (pets lower end, usable higher). It's the mare prices I've really seen take a hit here going from the $3-6 to around $850-2K range.


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## txminipinto (Mar 29, 2011)

I do have to agree. I believe if you can't put your horse (breeding stock) out in a show ring and get a show record on them they shouldn't be bred. And if you don't breed for the show ring they shouldn't be bred. Champion x Champion doesn't always produce a champion but at least some breed standard and improvement was attempted. Its the willy nilly breeding of these small horses just because we all can that bothers me.

And who pays $2 for a bale of hay? Where is it because I want to buy it!


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## TPs flat rock acres (Mar 29, 2011)

Its like that with anything. I have been Showing and breeding Akitas for 21 yrs there are people out there that think you can make money off selling puppies. Most are backyard breeders who just want to make a quick buck. All I can say is thank God Horses only have one baby. For me I breed for my self with dogs as I am looking for the next dog I can show with the Minis I will also only be breeding for myself. If someone was interested in buying one fine but if not they stay here and will only keep as many as I can devote time to meaning I will not breed any of them if I can't take care of them. I refuse to let any of my animals get thrown to the curb.


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## TPs flat rock acres (Mar 29, 2011)

I guess I am fortunate as I pay $2.50 a bale and its good hay... sorry not telling you where I get mine as I need it for myself



Again it sounds so much like the dog world. I do have show quality Akitas and have a very very good reputation for my akitas as they are winning and are EXCELLENT quality to the breed standard but we all start out somewheres and yes its not for the weak heart God knows with my dogs I have lost older ones that were my family members, puppies, older pups so its very much the same but for a dog they can produce in one year 2 litters which in turn can be up to 20+ puppies depending on the breed and just way to many are in shelters, being abused, used for who knows what. Its a cruel world out there for anything and is a big commitment if one decides to breed any type of animal as if you do it "RIGHT" there is no money in it period! God knows I am broke but I LOVE my animals


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## Reble (Mar 29, 2011)

On the other hand, this is our hobby, gets us up and going and a reason to enjoy life, we love raising these little guys, when you think of it as a hobby, prices are not that bad.

You can spend lot more money on golf, hockey and snow mobile etc, and think of the cost with them, these precious animals can give so much more back to you.

We breed to help with our expenses, for feed, vet, fun shows and they pay their way. I guess we are one of the lucky ones.

You have to decide how many is enjoyable and how many become a job.


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## chandab (Mar 29, 2011)

Reble said:


> On the other hand, this is our hobby, gets us up and going and a reason to enjoy life, we love raising these little guys, when you think of it as a hobby, prices are not that bad.
> 
> You can spend lot more money on golf, hockey and snow mobile etc, and think of the cost with them, these precious animals can give so much more back to you.
> 
> ...














And, they are good therapy; although, I don't think I'd call them "cheap" therapy, but being they are in my backyard, they are handy therapy.



No need to drive anywhere.


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## Matt73 (Mar 29, 2011)

I totally agree. I breed strictly for myself (one foal every other year=2 foals born here); if I do decide to sell, for whatever reason it's to a great home that I keep in touch with (I have sold those two foals to homes like that).

As an aside, I'm also really amazed at the amount of people that breed that seem to not know the basics about horses, let alone breeding and raising a foal. I know that you have to start somewhere, but to me that means reading tons (about normal pregnancy/dystocias and what to do etc. etc.) and maybe getting a mentor and being present at foalings. Handling foals. etc. etc. It means you should have a very strong theoretical and practical knowledge of horsemanship. I spent 20 years riding and showing (not to mention getting a very solid foundation in Pony Club) before I even thought about bringing a foal into the world. It really surprises me, how many people buy a mare in foal and just can't wait for her to have a cute little baby, without thinking ahead


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## miniwhinny (Mar 29, 2011)

I agree with what you've said but differ on one point...don't just pick on newbies



. The odd "newbie" breeding the odd foal is a drop in the ocean compared to the larger farms popping them out like it's going out of style and flooding the market with their "gotta make room" sales.


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## TPs flat rock acres (Mar 29, 2011)

Well for some they are not close to people that can mentor them so kind of disagree with that. If I waited for a mentor, vet or what ever where I live Heck who knows where I would be. With my akitas I had no mentor I learned the long hard road but it taught me respect for my dogs, where I want to be as a breeder and to really appricate life to its fullest with my animals. I became the akita breeder today that I can say I am very proud of. I have shown my own dogs to their championships, Have an ROM girl and have my own dogs that are continuing to produce top quality akitas. Sometimes those who you might think are your mentor could also be using you. Found that out the hard way as she told me to buy this akita to only find out she was making points of me showing her for her dog. I find making friends like I have so far in the mini world and learning myself yes it might be the harder way but where I live its the only way.

chanda Excellent post



Same with Reble



I have had minis for 5 years 2 have had 2 foals in the past 2 years... I wasnt there thank god they were ok but I have to say within the last few months talking to some GREAT people I have learned so much and can't be thankful enough. I know there is going to be some hard roads ahead as I am sure I will have some losses but doing this yes as a hobby I will take the good with the bad and really really enjoy the good!! That is what life is about right ?


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 29, 2011)

Well, well, well, I agree mostly, unless you breed for your own use, but I do agree on a lot of what has been said. I have been breeding horses since 1977, when I look at it now seems like a long time, we started in arabs, then when arthritis got the best of me we got into minis in 1999. We had our first two foals in 2001, only two, this was after promoting our stallion, and buying only top quality mares. I was at the sale were NFC Sugar Boy sold for $55,000, and another top stallion sold for more. Times have changed. I calculated several years ago that it cost me over 995. to get a foal on the ground. You have the cost of the extra vaccinations, to pay someone to watch the mare while you sllep or go to the feed store, the vet coming to do a well foal examine, and the list goes on, registration, etc. Prices have fallen, and I didn't breed any, not one mare for this year. I consider myself a responsable breeder and therefore realize that I have enough horses to care for until I can sell some. I do sell my pets for a low price, and lose money as it cost the same to bring them into the world, but you can breed a champion to a champion and still get a bad bite or crooked legs once in a while, it happens. We try to breed the best to the best for show quality, but don't breed when the market is down. I have several good quality mares I would love to breed to our champion stallion but won't because the market is unstable. So I do agree that if you can't market your horses don't breed, and only breed the best to ensure to improve the breed. Also on another note, there are some old time reputable breeders out there that still have a hold on the market, they've earned it, and won't have any trouble selling were as the newbies will have trouble unless they have a fortune tied up in advertising and excellent horses.


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## MindyLee (Mar 29, 2011)

Personaly its not the folks here that Im worried about breeding as we all try to strive to produce future minis with nice everythings...

Its the mini mills with non reg stock or bad confirmations and such who pumps foals out 10+ per season for a couple $100's for a quick buck who dont care about the future of the miniature equine that I would push this on.

Must of us here will take responsibility of our foals if they dont sell, mills will sell for cheaper to get it off their property asap! and wont ever look back at that foal as now its not their problem.


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## SampleMM (Mar 29, 2011)

Personally, I would never tell anyone they should or shouldn't breed; however, I do agree with you. Sometimes, I just have to shake my head and wonder why people do what they do. Just because you can afford to buy 50 mares.............doesn't mean you should be breeding 50 mares. Don't you think a better plan is to see what your stallion produces and buy mares that compliment him? Also, if you are breeding to make money, well then I feel sorry for you! There are very few people that can make a living off of miniatures and they've been in business for a very long time.


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 29, 2011)

MindyLee said:


> Personaly its not the folks here that Im worried about breeding as we all try to strive to produce future minis with nice everythings...
> 
> Its the mini mills with non reg stock or bad confirmations and such who pumps foals out 10+ per season for a couple $100's for a quick buck who dont care about the future of the miniature equine that I would push this on.
> 
> Must of us here will take responsibility of our foals if they dont sell, mills will sell for cheaper to get it off their property asap! and wont ever look back at that foal as now its not their problem.


This is a sad fact of life, I have been to a sale, where the breeder will sell sick and lifless foals with a registration not applied for just a piece of paper. I also know of a flipper that buys from auctions, cheap, then resells, cheap but with a profit for them, sad, sad. Some of these auctions are a shame, the horses only bring around 350 and then the overhead, I know most are pet quality, but as a breeder you don't know what kind of home they go to.


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## Riverdance (Mar 29, 2011)

I agree with you, but it is not only the Newbee's. Has one looked at some of the top farms to see how many babies they are having? Then have a big sale on their junk babies, some calling it their $1000 sale. Some farms are still having 20 foals, 50 foals, 100 foals or more



. Talk about flooding the market.....

Not all foals born on one of the top farms is going to be a show prospect. But many people do not realize this and buy from those farms because they do have some nice foals, but not the foal that they bought. Then thinking they have a nice horse, they breed it and then wonder why the foals did not turn out.

People need to learn proper conformation before breeding. Yes, every horse has faults, but if they have many faults, THEY SHOULD NOT BE BRED. Of course I have said this many time on this forum.





I have backed down on having too many foals. Shame on me for breeding some mares that I wanted to sell. After this year I will only breed those mares that I want a foal from. Still, with those mares bred that I want to sell, I am only expecting about 5 foals. Of those 5, two are ones that I am looking forward to. My 6th one, I lost the mare and foal. She was also one I wanted the foal from.


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 29, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> I agree with you, but it is not only the Newbee's. Has one looked at some of the top farms to see how many babies they are having? Then have a big sale on their junk babies, some calling it their $1000 sale. Some farms are still having 20 foals, 50 foals, 100 foals or more
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those big names you speak of, we got taken big time a few years back. Went to one of those AMHA Premier auctions, selling show quality horses only! Hubby bought five, of the five four went over, good thing I like my AMHR horses even if I have to hardship them in. The fifth horse was a disaster, I told him not to buy this colt, it had a great pedigree, but to me was skitzzy. He says it's just becuase he is a show quality colt and a way from home, brought this guy home and couldn't get him to acclimate at all. Had the vet out. blind in the left eye, and suffererd from birth trauma, I had him gelded and he is still hard to do anything to. Hubby never did get to show him. this colt is worth nothing except a lose. It takes everything in my power just to get him wormed he rears up, backs up, goes crazy for everything, need to sedate him to get his feet trimmed. I've tried to give him a way and no takers, it's no wonder.


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## RhineStone (Mar 29, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> Some farms are still having 20 foals, 50 foals, 100 foals or more
> 
> 
> 
> . Talk about flooding the market.....


Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?








I just read recently that someone had an idea about having horse owners "license" their horses, like you have to license dogs. While I am not a big fan of more government red tape, this has some merits if it means people might think twice about breeding that many horses! Of course, there would always be those folks that get around the red tape....





I still say that every foal should have a "purpose" before it even hits the ground, and being sold isn't one of them. For example, when we were trying to breed our mares (unsuccessfully), we had intentions that we were going to drive the foals. Now, every foal isn't going to live up to everyone's expectations, but at least if the foal is "wanted", then it won't just flood the market.


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 29, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I don't know about in your state, but in the stae where I live, if you sell more then five horses a year you must pay a fee, and be inspected, I think it is $80. and then some. The Dept. of Ag. asks a lot of questions, we already have plenty of forms to fill out yearly, even if we only sell a couple, and they have the right to come out and inspect when ever they want.


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## Blackwater Farm (Mar 29, 2011)

Being new to the miniature horse world myself I have to agree with this. I have my gelding and my mare and I am happy with just the two. Maybe someday if we can afford to buy some land of our own, we rent our farm now, I would like to have a few more but when I say a few I mean like no more than 5 and those will be for my own driving and showing pleasure. I have no desire to breed as there are many more people out there that are more qualified than I to handle such things. I would much rather buy one that is in need of a good, loving, forever home. IF, and I do mean IF, I ever decided to breed one of my future mares or buy a bred mare it would only be for me, not to sell. I have seen the "aftermath" of these backyard breeders who have a bunch of mares and stallions and they all just run around and do their thing and next year they have a bunch of $200 babies they cant sell. I love and care too much for my animals to think that they would ever wind up in a situation like that!


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## HGFarm (Mar 29, 2011)

Yes, there are a few big farms that are still producing that many foals.... ridiculous. They end up in auctions, at sales (with all sorts of descriptive names for the sales). And I agree that just because they might be a well known, long time farm doesnt mean the quality is always there. I just never have believed in the quantity breeding of dozens to hopefully get one that might be decent - or just for mass volume to sell. I would rather look to buy from a farm that has a few very nice quality horses than from a farm that has 125 horses whose quality is all over the place that is simply 'mass producing' animals.

I also agree for newbies- I am not going to say dont breed, however be prepared if you do. Someone mentioned knowing something about conformation. Also, be prepared to foot the bill on vet, dental and health care, farrier, feed, etc... as anything can happen at any time. TRY to make sure your foals are going to a good home that has some kind of knowledge to take care of them and also that the home is suitable for what they are looking for. (I had a couple of people one Xmas time that wanted a yearling stallion for their little 3 year old child to 'grow up with'- uh, that would be a NO. They had NO knowledge about horses at all and I think were insulted when I suggested they learn a bit more about their care and feeding and suggested an older gentle seasoned horse if they can find one, that is SAFE for their child) If your horse does not sell, YOU are responsible to make sure it is well taken care of and a happy horse.


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## Helicopter (Mar 29, 2011)

First of all I'd like to know where you can get a vet for $50.....WOW, WOW and WOW again.......... not to mention hay for $2 and chaff for $15

I had romantic thoughts of breeding a sweet baby for ages but any such musings have now disappeared after reading so many horror stories on this forum.

The same thing happens over here. So many little guys that no one wants to buy. Others that are bought by people who soon lose interest......then what happens to them?


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## sedeh (Mar 29, 2011)

When I got into minis my original thought was to have 2 nice geldings to show and play with. A friend talked me into making it a "business" to get a good tax write off. Now I have a small breeding operation and went into it fairly well informed and bought nice foundation stock. Even with that I've weeded out the mares that didn't cross well with my stallion and now I only breed for one or two foals a year. Have I made any money...of course not. Does the tax "write-off" balance out what I pay out...not at all! That said, every year it's like Christmas waiting for the new foals to hit the ground and there's nothing like taking a horse that you've raised and trained and doing well at the shows with him/her!! I'm still an optomist and think the market will improve. I also know that every year at our Pinto shows we have at least one "mini convert" that have gone from the biggies to minis and love it! So I'm hoping my "Pinto" market will still be growing.


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## Songcatcher (Mar 29, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


What a joke. The world's biggest breeder of horses is the U.S. Government Bureau of Land Management. Thousands each year, most of which starve to death.

I am for people using some common sense in breeding anything, but am totally against the government telling us what we can do and what we can't.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Mar 29, 2011)

just wanted to say that horses can easily live longer than 30yrs. my neighbor has a 51yr old pony that is still goin strong and is still rideable



i rode him once and he has alot of get up and go, still bucks, runs, breaks out of fences and has no lameness issues.


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## ruffian (Mar 29, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Do "big horse" farms have that many foals a year?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No offense, but I am totally against any government agency being in my business any more than they are now.

That said - I went to a horse auction this past Saturday. THIS IS NOT JUST A MINIATURE HORSE PROBLEM!! They Had about 30 horses mostly Quarter horses & crossbreds. A guy brought in 2 minis, a mare and a stallion. Both were driven into the ring with about 50 pounds of harness (draft style) pulling an adult and a kid in deep sand. They got $200 for the mare and nothing for the stud. Mare was registered supposedly. I wandered over and was looking at the mare when the guy came up to unharness her. He asked if I was interested because she was sold but the stallion hadn't I said I had a few (LOL). Then he said that his stallion (J U N K ) COULD be registered because he saw papers when he bought him and sure would make me some money making babies.











Most of the 30 brought less than $200. One big rawboned stallion sold for $2,500 and was so badly conformed in the rear that his rear hoofs stepped into the same hoof print. But he was well broke to ride. So the new owner was very excited because he had some good mares to put him on. UGH!

The best looking horse was a 6 yo Arabian gelding that floated through the ring. Not Broke. Could not get a bid! This guy brought 4 Arabs from his farm, where he has a total of 26.

So don't be too hard on miniature horse folks breeding - there are a lot of big horse people out there too.

I bred my stallion to 6 mares this year. I was very careful in picking mares. I've had 3 gelding parties in the last 18 months. I had sold all I wanted, plus one that wasn't listed. I can afford to take care of them if they all end up staying. But I do agree with the spirit of this post - don't get into the horse business to make money!! You will, for someone else.


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## midnight star stables (Mar 29, 2011)

Matt73 said:


> I totally agree. I breed strictly for myself (one foal every other year=2 foals born here); if I do decide to sell, for whatever reason it's to a great home that I keep in touch with (I have sold those two foals to homes like that).
> 
> As an aside, I'm also really amazed at the amount of people that breed that seem to not know the basics about horses, let alone breeding and raising a foal. I know that you have to start somewhere, but to me that means reading tons (about normal pregnancy/dystocias and what to do etc. etc.) and maybe getting a mentor and being present at foalings. Handling foals. etc. etc. It means you should have a very strong theoretical and practical knowledge of horsemanship. I spent 20 years riding and showing (not to mention getting a very solid foundation in Pony Club) before I even thought about bringing a foal into the world. It really surprises me, how many people buy a mare in foal and just can't wait for her to have a cute little baby, without thinking ahead


100%



I have bred my two mares to nice outside stallions and still have no foals to my name.



I have one coming this fall and it'll be mine. I might offer him/her for sale if they aren't everything I hoped that be, BUT they'll always have a home here. Personally, my love is with showing, and driving, and halter. And I also love/promote geldings! Breeding comes much later down the list, so even when I breed, it's with the hopes to show the little one for many years.



But that's me. To each their own.

And Matt, you're right, there is SO much to learn and know about foaling. It is down right scary!



The more you do read, the more you see that you need to read lots more!


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## susanne (Mar 29, 2011)

Is it any less of a tragedy for a homely, poorly bred horse to end up in a slaughter house?

Can you guarantee that that wonderful, carefully vetted buyer won't lose their job and be forced to sell your carefully bred horse in a rush -- possibly at auction?

Anyone who thinks that this does not apply to them is kidding themself. It has gone beyond the point of saying "But I breed quality minis!"

Some will say that if they don't breed their champion stock, the backyard breeders will still continue and the breed will diminish. Even if this were true, it does not excuse knowingly producing foals without a solid place in the world.

I don't expect people to stop breeding altogether, but rather cut way, way back with "on spec" breeding. How about breeding to order to order, with at least a deposit to show a commitment to the foal before it is created?

If you have to breed to sell, guarantee a lifelong home should the buyer run into financial difficulties, and then again, breed only for those you can afford to have returned.

I am not saying that it's okay for me and not for you -- as much as I love my horses, I will never breed.

No horse is so spectacular that they MUST be bred.

No horse is so worthless that it can simply be thrown away.


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## disneyhorse (Mar 29, 2011)

Well, I don't think this applies only to miniature horses. Horses of all sizes, cats, dogs, etc. are not immune to this plea... and maybe even human children!





Andrea


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## susanne (Mar 29, 2011)

I absolutely agree with Andrea and others -- this problem goes far beyond minis. Careful consideration must be given before creating ANY life.

We're supposed to be the intelligent species...it's time we act like it.


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## kaykay (Mar 29, 2011)

I am really conflicted about this post. Hard to reply without sounding bad but here goes.

I NEVER want the government to be able to tell me what I can or cannot do on my own farm!

Really unfair to single out "newbies" and kinda damaging to our own industry to have a huge thread on how miniature horses have no value and should never be bred.

I am all for responsible breeding and encouraging responsible breeding. You all know I am a huge proponent of geldings. I am not a big farm by any means and we only have a limited number of foals per year (3 this year god willing)

I recently sold an ASPC mare and an ASPC/AMHR horse for a very good price, so this tells me great horses still bring great prices. I have also turned down many sales over the past few months because I had a bad feeling about the buyer.

The only horse I have had trouble selling is more of a pet quality mini. I will wait until the right homes comes around because she so dear to me.





Every industry has been hit by the economy, not just ours.

I said on the last thread that is has become like a bad word to admit if your farm makes money. And for most of us its not ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. For sure to be in this you have to be passionate and almost live, eat and breath miniature horses.

I have said for years horses are not a hobby; they are a way of life.

Many farms get set in their ways and refuse to outcross and bring in new bloodlines into their herd. These farms for sure are going to have a harder time selling. Or they never advertise, market or show etc.

I think a lot of newbies are much better educated now than in past years. More seem to know the right questions to ask and really look at conformation etc.

I guess I am the eternal optimist as I always think things will get better. This economy has been hard on all of us but I have to think we will work our way back out. It has forced us to cut our numbers, show less but at the end of the day I am still doing what I love and am passionate about.


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## Leeana (Mar 29, 2011)

Nevermind..


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 29, 2011)

susanne said:


> Is it any less of a tragedy for a homely, poorly bred horse to end up in a slaughter house? ...
> 
> No horse is so spectacular that they MUST be bred.
> 
> ...














And this goes for all sizes of horse. I've been shocked by some of the ads I've seen on Craigslist recently for full-sized horses.





Leia


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## champsmom (Mar 29, 2011)

Okay. I bought 2 mares and a stud from my neighbor because he wasn't taking care of them. They were already bred so I have two yearlings and yes I bred one mare back and she just had the colt last week. None of them are "show quallity" but I can tel you that they are EVERY BIT as or more loved than the fancy shmancys.

Now, that said, I am gelding the stud, and all three colts. (one was just gelded yesteryday but the other hasn't dropped yet.) I have and will keep them all. I am sensible enough to know that there is a horrible problem with overpopulation of all horses, dogs and cats. I spay or neuter all my pets ( 4 dogs, 9 cats, and my male goats are wethers) and all but 1 are rescues.

The point I would like to make here is that just because a horse has a wonderful pedigree does not assure that it will recieve a great home or have a great life. I have a 21 year old thoroughbred mare that is a great grandaughter of Secretariat. She was a rescue also. The people that had her left her in a stall full of mud and muck with no hay or grain and she was literally eating the wood for nourishment. Fortunately a family member of the owners brought it to my friends attention and gave her papers and all. I have had this mare for 9 years now and love her very very much.

So it is not a "newbie" issue. Please don't take offence anyone but people who breed to sell are actually creating more of a problem.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Mar 29, 2011)

champsmom said:


> So it is not a "newbie" issue. Please don't take offence anyone but people who breed to sell are actually creating more of a problem.


i have to agree with this, just didnt wanna say it because i didnt wanna get bashed/create a fight. i think that the farms that are breeding any number of foals a year to sell arent helping the problem any. if you wanna breed youself a horse to keep then i dont think it'll hurt the market any, because you dont plan to sell it. right now the problem with every breed of animal is there are to many for sale and not enough homes to buy. the crappy economy isnt helping either.

i think breeding needs to slow down or stop until the economy gets better, and in the meantime people could train and show what they currently have.

ETA: It really irks me that this post is targeting newbies. EVERYONE started out as a newbie! even the people at Little King Farm started out as a bunch of newbies! if it werent for newbies there would be no mini horses at all! it just really irritates me that newbies are so frowned upon!



ok, i'm gonna



now.


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## Sue_C. (Mar 29, 2011)

> nd if you don't breed for the show ring they shouldn't be bred. Champion x Champion doesn't always produce a champion but at least some breed standard and improvement was attempted. Its the willy nilly breeding of these small horses just because we all can that bothers me


This is a "bit" elitist don't you think? There are a lot of people who show "champion" horses that haven't a clue about good conformation or what it really takes to create a good horse. Believe me, I have spent enough time in the show ring with other breeds to KNOW that "Mr/Mrs Champion" can (and often does) have faults that are covered up and the horses shown "just right" when the Judge is standing there. Also, MOST people here, who go on about only breeding champ to champ, are ONLY talking about the Halter ring...something that is the ruination of many breeds, so don't hand me that garbage that the show horses are the "be all and end all" of ANY breed.

That said, if one educates themselves on form to function, which is simply conformation, and suitability for the job the horses is expected to do, then there is nothing wrong with their "un-champions" going on to produce horses that can be far superior to many who have championship ribbons.


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## Katiean (Mar 30, 2011)

Sue_C. said:


> This is a "bit" elitist don't you think? There are a lot of people who show "champion" horses that haven't a clue about good conformation or what it really takes to create a good horse. Believe me, I have spent enough time in the show ring with other breeds to KNOW that "Mr/Mrs Champion" can (and often does) have faults that are covered up and the horses shown "just right" when the Judge is standing there. Also, MOST people here, who go on about only breeding champ to champ, are ONLY talking about the Halter ring...something that is the ruination of many breeds, so don't hand me that garbage that the show horses are the "be all and end all" of ANY breed.
> 
> That said, if one educates themselves on form to function, which is simply conformation, and suitability for the job the horses is expected to do, then there is nothing wrong with their "un-champions" going on to produce horses that can be far superior to many who have championship ribbons.


I so agree. Also people say "Don't breed your dog there are too many in shelters." Well, for most of you out there, if someone did not breed their dog then you would not have that furry little lump sitting beside you or at your feet. Honestly, how many of you adopted your dog at a shelter? Yes, there will always be people that get a dog or a horse that will not take care or responsibility for it and take to a shelter for a dog or auction for a horse after after it is no longer a cute baby. Along with the horses I raise Japanese Chin Dogs. Our last litter was sold before the puppies were 4 weeks old (not leaving our home until they were over 8 weeks old). Then at 6 weeks one puppy had an accident and lost an eye. When his new owners no longer wanted him because he wasn't whole we made the choice to keep him. He is 4 months old and full of himself. He has a forever home here. When his surgery was $700 we were told a couple of different things by others. 1) was put him down. For an eye? No way. 2) drop him at the vet and don't go back to get him. Abandon him? I think not. The same with the horses. I feel you should not breed any horse you are not willing and able to keep and care for the resulting baby. However, that is a personal choice and no one should tell someone else do not breed because there are too many abused and neglected horses out there. If someone had not bred for my Missy I would not have been able to buy her. If she had not been bred before I got her, I would not have my Dusty. We all have to remember, we all bought our horses somewhere. There is no way the BIG BANG put these horses in our pens and barns.


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## Minimor (Mar 30, 2011)

Sue--you got that just right! Champion to champion doesn't necessarily mean much of anything at all.

I've seen a National Champion that waddled so badly she should never have placed top ten, never mind National Champion. Is that kind of movement really the thing one should strive to breed into their foals, National Champion ribbon or not? Sorry, I would have to say no; certainly not if you're wanting horses that can MOVE and not just look pretty standing still.

And I agree it isn't just the newbies. Certainly some newbies decide that when they get a Mini or two it means that they should start breeding and selling foals to pay for their horses and their expenses, but it isn't just the newbies that cannot judge true quality in their horses--there are plenty of long=time owners/breeders that still don't have a clue. There are plenty of non-newbies that are churning out as many foals as ever, completely disregarding the over supply of horses already on the market, and completely disregarding the poor economy. Foals don't sell? Well, you drop the price, sell them in bulk, offering a buyer a deal they can't resist on multiple horses. Maybe even give away one here & there, just to get them all moved out in time to make room for the new foal crop.

I don't get that. If you can't get a decent price for your foals, how is it worth it to keep breeding and practically giving the foals away? Stop and think about it--maybe re-evaluate your breeding stock and your foals, figure out which ones could be taken out of the breeding shed. It isn't a crime to leave some mares open each year. Maybe breed fewer mares, and plan carefully to try and produce a few foals that are better than any you've produced before?


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## Knottymare (Mar 30, 2011)

susanne said:


> No horse is so spectacular that they MUST be bred.
> 
> No horse is so worthless that it can simply be thrown away.


I've been doing rescue in some capacity for 30 years. I have a lot I could say but I'm so sick (have a bad cold) that I don't have the energy to form the argument... but Susanne really summed up how I feel right there.

Breed quality, in small enough quantities that if the whole market were to dry up immediately, you could afford to keep everything you produce. Showing is NOT the only proof of quality.

I have been SICK seeing the ads from MAJOR farms clearing out hundreds of last year's foals to make room for this year's foal crop. Indiscriminate breeding is the problem. Both beginners and seasoned pros practice indiscriminate breeding.


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## SampleMM (Mar 30, 2011)

" If you can't get a decent price for your foals, how is it worth it to keep breeding and practically giving the foals away? Stop and think about it--maybe re-evaluate your breeding stock and your foals, figure out which ones could be taken out of the breeding shed. It isn't a crime to leave some mares open each year. Maybe breed fewer mares, and plan carefully to try and produce a few foals that are better than any you've produced before?"

Minimor---There is a lot of truth to your statement and I wish everyone felt this way.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 30, 2011)

I personally feel the newbie comment was meant as a warning more than a demand. The op, I believe, was trying to wake up those that think it will be all rainbows and butterflies if they start breeding.

Personally, I find equal fault, myself included, with small breeders and large breeders. And I am a believer in always striving for the best because those horses have the best chance at a productive life, but could still end up in a bad situation obviously. But even the best laid plans go haywire...anybody remember Corona? I believe that's the type of trainwreck the op is talking about. The heartache, the poor outcomes, the vet bills, etc.

As many have mentioned, the overbreeding is a problem in every animal, but this is a mini related board, so we are focusing on minis.

Everyone can use a wake-up call now and then. I believe the op was doing just that...trying to get even one persons attention is worth it imo.

Flame away.


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## CharlesFamily (Mar 30, 2011)

I saw this list on another blog just after reading this one, so thought it was very applicable and I would share. I know many don't agree with the WAY Fugly blog states things - but there is a lot of truth in WHAT she says.

In her most current post, she was listing things about being a backyard breeder - which is a term NOT meant to mean if you breed in the backyard or have a small-scale operation you aren't quality (don't want to turn this into another debate about those terms). But many of the points she made are the same ones being argued here, so I thought I would re-post her list.

You should NOT breed (regardless of newbie, veteran, etc.) IF you:

- breed stuff you can’t afford to feed, vet and trim regularly

- breed stuff you don’t handle and train appropriately to its age

- breed registerable foals but then fail to register them

- breed without researching to ensure that there is a strong market for the resulting foals (and I don’t mean the kill pen)

- Keep crippled mares endlessly pregnant as baby machines. I don’t mean mares that are a little off at the trot. I mean mares with huge knees that can hardly walk to the water trough.

- breed with no attention paid to avoiding genetic diseases

- keep horses in an inappropriate facility, including ANY barbed wire, extra credit for foals out on barbed wire

- breed anything, even nice horses, in such an excess number that you drive down the entire market for them. 

 

Barbara


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## Jill (Mar 30, 2011)

I sure don't think we need the government telling us if / how many / what we can breed... nor what temperature to set our house thermostats, what vehicles we can drive, what books and news we can read.................... Bigger government = smaller individuals.

People breed for different reasons. Really, my hunch is that most people who are breeding minis SHOULD NOT be breeding minis. Do I think they should be required to stop? NO. Do I think they should have the education and instinct to realize they should. YEP.

For me, it took me a long time, lots of shows, and some re-arranging of the horses I own(ed) before I felt I was ready to breed. I'd owned minis for nearly 10yrs at that point, and riding horses for longer than that... just the same, we have had some heart breaks and very difficult situations along the way including loosing a mare during foaling and hand raising babies.

There's no way I'm in this for "the money". It's a money out situation here, and I do not see that changing. I do it, in part, because I think we are producing quality animals that I am enjoying and others may enjoy. It is really gratifying for me when I see foals "we made" that are the foals I'd want to buy if they weren't already mine. It is very emotionally rewarding.

Just the same, it is also an emotional roller coaster from point A to point B and I think I'm stepping off the ride for next year. I'm just wrung out with it right about now, and do not plan to breed for 2012 foals... but 2013 OH YEAH! I will be able to use some of our homebred mares at that point, which will be a milestone in my long planned goals. Until then, I'm going to do what I can to get the most enjoyment out of the hoofed wonders we've already made and love.

As a side note, for so many years, I've thought if newbies spent a spring reading about the tragedies and hardships our members (including the very experienced) have to deal with as a result of breeding / foaling, fewer newbies would dive right in to this particular "thing" you can do with minis. The fact that "everyone" with a mini seems to eventually breed is a big part of why there's a lot of poor quality minis out there and part of why so many "big horse people" do not consider miniature horse owners true horse people. Too many of "us" treat our horses like dogs, don't know basic horsemanship, keep our minis in what look like junk yards, ETC. There are problems all around, not just with inexperienced people deciding to breed their miniatures.


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## Taylor Richelle (Mar 30, 2011)

SampleMM said:


> " If you can't get a decent price for your foals, how is it worth it to keep breeding and practically giving the foals away? Stop and think about it--maybe re-evaluate your breeding stock and your foals, figure out which ones could be taken out of the breeding shed. It isn't a crime to leave some mares open each year. Maybe breed fewer mares, and plan carefully to try and produce a few foals that are better than any you've produced before?"
> 
> Minimor---There is a lot of truth to your statement and I wish everyone felt this way.


I totally agree with this!



I wish more people looked at it this way. Sadly i have seen it happen before and it was heartbreaking. That is another reason I am glad I don't breed.


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## txminipinto (Mar 30, 2011)

Sue_C. said:


> This is a "bit" elitist don't you think? There are a lot of people who show "champion" horses that haven't a clue about good conformation or what it really takes to create a good horse. Believe me, I have spent enough time in the show ring with other breeds to KNOW that "Mr/Mrs Champion" can (and often does) have faults that are covered up and the horses shown "just right" when the Judge is standing there. Also, MOST people here, who go on about only breeding champ to champ, are ONLY talking about the Halter ring...something that is the ruination of many breeds, so don't hand me that garbage that the show horses are the "be all and end all" of ANY breed.
> 
> That said, if one educates themselves on form to function, which is simply conformation, and suitability for the job the horses is expected to do, then there is nothing wrong with their "un-champions" going on to produce horses that can be far superior to many who have championship ribbons.


No I don't think its an elitist mind set. I think its a good horse business mind set. By putting a horse out into the ring of ANY NATURE (I never said HALTER champion), you are putting that horse up against the breed standard. By doing so, you are testing that horse to see if that horse is an improvement. YES, there are "NATIONAL CHAMPION" horses I wouldn't dare own or even dare show and they got that way due to politics and excellent showmanship of the exhibitor to hide those faults we all see standing in the warm up pen. BUT, the breeders and owners have stepped up and said judge this horse against all others. They aren't taking pet quality and breeding willy nilly to sell on the side of the road or at auction. They are ATTEMPTING to breed correctly with animals that are of quality. Granted, some do this for the wrong reasons and obtain those "seals of quality" dishonestly, but at least they are putting themselves out there to be judged.

Those who do this honestly and with integrity will stand out to all. Those who don't will sucker those with less education and experience. Believe me, I've seen some pretty awful horses sell for pretty high prices because of a name. And I've seen some pretty spectacular horses sell for pennies because someone was smart enough to see that diamond when everyone else was blinded by smoke and mirrors. Not every $5-$10K horse is worth the manure they produce. Some $300 horses are worth more than any amount you or I have.

But again, National Champion really doesn't mean much unless they can produce better than themselves. There are some national champions who can't produce ANYTHING. Sometimes that big title comes with a cost greater than itself.


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## Marsha Cassada (Mar 30, 2011)

I do not breed; I only buy geldings (or geldings-to-be). But I am glad someone DID breed or there would be no horses for me!

When I first looked for a miniature I shocked the seller by refusing to look at mares. With a mare you can get more horses, every year! Why wouldn't I want to pay more for that?? With big horses, a gelding is generally more desireable for all-round activity. Even as a pasture ornament. IMO so are mininatures.

I have frequently advised new miniature horse owners that I meet to check out the local auction if they want to add another horse--not to breed. Generally they are attracted to the idea of "rescue".

Gelding in our part of the world is very economical and I always suggest it. But I'm not going to tell anyone he HAS to geld. The argument I use that makes sense to most, is would he have a full sized stallion for his children? For himself? The wheels start turning and suddenly the little horse is seen as a HORSE, with the life dynamic of any horse, big or little.

Ditto, here, for keeping the government out of our business.


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## SammyL (Mar 30, 2011)

I personally do not breed. I have owned miniatures for eight years or so now, my herd consists of three geldings and three mares. If I could spay the mares, I probably would.

I am a huge believer in gelding/neutering/spaying all of your horses and other animals. All my dogs are spayed/neutered as are my barn cats.

That being said, responsible breeders should continue the good work, because without the good people in the industry, none of us would have horses.

Someday, God willing, we will live in a world where all the homeless creatures will have forever homes.


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## Eagle (Mar 30, 2011)

Some of the comments on here have been down right rude. I call myself a newby as I have only had my mini's 5 years. This does not make me a COMPLETE IDIOT. I have and still do breed show jumpers for many years. I studied Equine science at school, I have done dressage for years, hunted for years and I was a groom for an international show jumper where I did the Olympics several times. I breed 1-2 mini's a year which are nearly all still with me. I don't need to sell my horses as I am lucky enough to have plenty of money and so does my husband. So where am I at fault???? Just cos maybe I ask a few questions to the majority of nice people on this forum. Well, I am sorry, next time I won't ask, I will go and by the book as was suggested.

I hope you are all happy as I WILL NOT disturb you all again.

Have a nice day


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## CharlesFamily (Mar 30, 2011)

Eagle,

I don't think you should take offense to this post! You call yourself a newbie - but I don't think anyone else would! I know for me what is frustrating with minis is that people who have NO horse experience buy them - and typically their first horse is a stallion. Now, these same people would NEVER consider buying a full-sized stallion, but because minis are smaller and therefore easier to handle, this is what I see often happening.

Then, of course, if you have a stallion you MUST have a mare to breed them to so you can have more cute babies and make some money selling them. So now you have a first-time horse owner with no previous experience and not even an experienced friend to hep them and they are going to jump into horse breeding. And so often what I see around here is that the person typically is buying the cheapest horses they can find - because that is the only way they can think of making money. Typically, those cheap horses are NOT going to be sought after horses. The low end of the miniature horse pool is being flooded.

And again, I am NOT accusing all first-time horse owners of this. But I think people have been around enough to see that this happens SO much. And I don't even think this is addressed at people on this board. If you (you in general, not specific) are here, and you are reading, posting and asking questions, then you ARE trying to increase your knowledge! Sadly, every time one of these posts ends up on here I feel like people are "preaching to the choir." I think most that post on here would pass the "should you breed your horses" test. Sadly, the ones who shouldn't aren't here reading and trying to learn.

Just my .02 worth, but I hope you don't stop posting! I especially enjoy hearing from the members who live in other countries - adds so much to what I can learn!

Barbara


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## wingnut (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm not sure I should even try to respond to the thread. I've had years of time on messages boards of all stripes and recognize a topic with so many facets to it that the many blanket statements presented here show. That to me is the biggest problem with many of the things said so far: broad stroke blanket statements. Many times these are born out of frustration over a situation regarding a love in your life and you reach your tipping point and can't help but let it all out.

Unfortunately, when using such a broad brush, you end up painting people who don't deserve it. Has anyone looked back on what you wrote and considered the *individuals* you're pointing fingers at? We have a lot of great people on this board of every experience level, of every farm size, of every breeding philosophy. We may not all agree with what the others are doing, but that doesn't mean they don't have important contributions they can bring to the table. These broad stroke negative commentaries push away away people, like it or not. Do we want a board where we all simply agree with each other and nod our heads? I'd think that would get to be boring fast and the board would slowly die as a result.

As a true newbie (i.e., my first mini 2 short years ago was my first horse EVER), I am saddened that people like myself would by no stretch of the imagination be left out in the cold if we followed the thinking that some of these broad stroke ideas would demand of the industry. I cannot afford a multi-thousand dollar horse. Do I hope to someday to be able to? Sure, who wouldn't? I am thankful that I was able to find great horses for prices I could afford because I have *never* enjoyed something so much in my life. Never have I been as happy and sure of a decision as the one we made in doing this two years ago. Did we do everything perfect? everything right? NO! We should have researched more. We should have definitely avoided the one old-timer breeder. We've been lucky that our lack of knowledge hasn't hurt us, I understand that. Since that first day two years ago, we have pushed to learn as much as we can and we ARE doing a very good job of giving our four a great life.

So, while I understand the OP's frustration and the emotions behind it, along with many who have responded in kind...sometimes, maybe we should take time temper ourselves, if even just a little bit.


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## Sue_C. (Mar 30, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Some of the comments on here have been down right rude. I call myself a newby as I have only had my mini's 5 years. This does not make me a COMPLETE IDIOT. I have and still do breed show jumpers for many years. I studied Equine science at school, I have done dressage for years, hunted for years and I was a groom for an international show jumper where I did the Olympics several times. I breed 1-2 mini's a year which are nearly all still with me. I don't need to sell my horses as I am lucky enough to have plenty of money and so does my husband. So where am I at fault???? Just cos maybe I ask a few questions to the majority of nice people on this forum. Well, I am sorry, next time I won't ask, I will go and by the book as was suggested.
> 
> I hope you are all happy as I WILL NOT disturb you all again.
> 
> Have a nice day


Now-now-now...don't take too much to heart, what you read here. come on in and ASK your questions, and accept the answers you find helpful, and disregard those that are rude and/or disrespectful.. As you say, you've been involved with the Equine World for many years, so you should realize how "funny" (not) some horse folks can get. I am sure you have seen and heard your share of attitude and arrogance mixed with plenty of ignorance to boot...so please, don't let some petty bickering here bother you.

*Scroll, and delete if that is what you'd like...but do stick around to get some of the GOOD info available here...and give us a chance to learn from you in turn. *


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## Tab (Mar 30, 2011)

It's okay that this started a debate and made us all think, me included. I have a lot to learn always. This thought, feeling, whatever you want to call it has been bubbling under the surface for a long time. I appreciate every post, even those I disagree with, have taken me out of context, or aren't directing their comments at the original post. The reason why I targeted the newbie? Because there are established farms that seem completely unaware that there is an overpopulation problem and will never change their ways, producing another large group of foals this year and next. In this post or last I have not directed my comments toward _any_ individual here.

If a newbie whose interest in miniature horses has just sparked I hope they read these posts. This is not the time to jump into breeding, and it's never the time if they plan on making money. If we are to warn someone who doesn't know enough to know better, then we are being responsible horse owners. You _*WON'T*_ make money on minis is the moral of the story. Newbies are the most likely to have this notion. I do not want to steer people away from owning miniature horses. This is an amazing breed that can be enjoyed in so many ways. If we bred half as much there are still more than enough to go around!

Do I think horses should be licensed and people should be charged for selling horses? Absolutely not! I don't believe that the larger sector has any business in this. It all comes down to personal responsibility. Let me also say that having a plan is very important. I would say that most of us breed for ourselves even if you do sell a few a year but it's important to know honestly when the limit is reached.


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## Riverdance (Mar 30, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Some of the comments on here have been down right rude. I call myself a newby as I have only had my mini's 5 years. This does not make me a COMPLETE IDIOT. I have and still do breed show jumpers for many years. I studied Equine science at school, I have done dressage for years, hunted for years and I was a groom for an international show jumper where I did the Olympics several times. I breed 1-2 mini's a year which are nearly all still with me. I don't need to sell my horses as I am lucky enough to have plenty of money and so does my husband. So where am I at fault???? Just cos maybe I ask a few questions to the majority of nice people on this forum. Well, I am sorry, next time I won't ask, I will go and by the book as was suggested.
> 
> I hope you are all happy as I WILL NOT disturb you all again.
> 
> Have a nice day



Eagle,

You are NOT considered a newbie. Please do not take offense with what people are saying on this forum. It is not directed at you. You have been in horses for years. Besides, I do not think this posting was against newbies in general, but breeders in general. People who buy a few horses with the sole intention of just breeding and thinking they are going to make money, need to rethink. Someone who wants to get into Minis for the enjoyment, be it pet, showing or driving. START WITH A GELDING. Learn what it takes to own and properly take care of your horses.. Why is it that people in Minis think that the colts are no good, when they would make some great geldings, and a great way for "newbies" to start


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 30, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> Eagle,
> 
> You are NOT considered a newbie. Please do not take offense with what people are saying on this forum. It is not directed at you. You have been in horses for years. Besides, I do not think this posting was against newbies in general, but breeders in general. People who buy a few horses with the sole intention of just breeding and thinking they are going to make money, need to rethink. Someone who wants to get into Minis for the enjoyment, be it pet, showing or driving. START WITH A GELDING. Learn what it takes to own and properly take care of your horses.. Why is it that people in Minis think that the colts are no good, when they would make some great geldings, and a great way for "newbies" to start
> 
> You make a great point about geldings. They are or should be the horse of choice for a small child. For example my 10 year old grand son showed two geldings and one mare last year, never had a problem with the geldings but at one show the mare was in season and gave him a fit. This was 4-H. I just had two colts gelded, waiting on three others to drop, so they can be gelded, and am seriously thinking of gelding a breeding stallion, so that I can show him, he is so pretty, but I don't have the confidence to show a stallion with my arthritis and bad knees. Besides, because of the economy I haven't bred for a while and don't plan on it any time soon. Go Geldings!


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## BBH (Mar 30, 2011)

Very interesting thread.......the different opinions. And my two cents worth. I have had horses all my life but only got into minis a couple of years ago.......had always wanted one and the chance came up. And guess what? NEWBIE TO MINIS....Boy did I have alot to learn .....a real learning curve compared to caring for large pony or horse. The mare I bought was bred, she was pampered, had a camera on her for the last 60 days, and she still lost the foal. She will never be bred again after having 4 foals only one was registered, the other two are out there as pets and hopefully well loved and cared for. I found her one registered filly and they both will have a forever home here as that is the way we operate.

I love foals and have had my share over the years but in the current economy the horse market is just so down. CL ads make we want to rescue them all and it is not possible. I have seen so many buy pets for the kids not knowing what they are getting into, the kids lose interest and the horse suffers....not just minis.

I was very fotunate that I had some really good folks nearby and on this forum that gave me info to care for my minis.....have 3 now and just love them to death. I do not show breed shows but am intersted in CDE/driving and am going that direction. Minis are so smart they all need some kind of job.

why people breed and don't keep up papers does a disjustice to the breed.


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## Jill (Mar 30, 2011)

Honestly, people who would get too upset over this thread and decide not to allow themselves to enjoy LB going forward are probably better off leaving the arena of online discussions. It's hard to participate in any message board if you allow the different opinions of others to upset you to the point of becoming angry or personally offended. The whole point of a message board it to share ideas and opinions. We don't all have the same ideas and the same, or even compatible, opinions. If we did all hold the same opinions and ways of handling our horses, we'd really just have boring discussions that wouldn't offer much room for learning!

That said, I don't want anyone to leave. However, maybe some people can take a second glance at what's actually been said and evaluate if it's _really_ something worth being personally upset or offended over. While I didn't read each post, I didn't see anyone held out as a negative example or any fingers pointing at any specific person. I for one can promise I had no individual member or farm in mind when I expressed my point of view. I really feel that's the case with other replies, too.


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## MindyLee (Mar 30, 2011)

Well I guess Ill be the 1st one to admitt...

When I 1st got into minis in 2004, I started off with a little fat stallion who I just thought the world of. I knew nothing about registrations or conformation. Well I did buy a mare to be his girlfriend and to breed to to make lots of easy money. I did have my foal, a cute little colt and I put a HUGE price tag on him cause I thought I could. 7 months later he finally sold for $580 double reg. IT WAS A REAL EYE OPENER cause I was a newbie and though "I was going to be big and rich and have my minis and name all over".

Many yrs later now that I have changed my program around majorly and have learned A LOT! I realized that the foal was totally cute but had poor confirmation. Today, my breeding program is right where I want it. I still own that fat little stallion and his girlfriend. BUT have WAY better horses in my herd for breeding now. I also learned that I will never make enough $$$ to come anywhere even close to pay back what I have into mine, and I wont be a big named farm and super rich.





The 1st two will always stay with me because they are very sentamentle to me.


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## miniwhinny (Mar 30, 2011)

I have just one thing to say.....




antiesbig:



antiesbig:





Okay that was more than one thing lol.

But seriously, we don't all like the same types...we don't all like the same heights...we all like different colors, bloodlines, disciplines etc and we shouldn't get upset because someone else has a different view.

The bottom lines to me are

1. No one has any more right to breed than another. If you're new or have been around as long as Noah. If you have 2 horses or 200 as long as you're not breeding bad genetics/traits etc.

2. This is not a money making "hobby". You may sell for a good price but just doing a good job at maintaining a healthy herd can easily wipe that out.

3. These horses do NOT all do well when delivering foals and the bottom line shouldn't be - should I breed in this economy - to me the bottom line should be "should I breed and risk MY decision becoming a fatal decision for this (innocent, trusting) mare and foal who have had no choice in anything going on. All of these terrible losses have not happened by chance. These animals have all died because their owners decided they wanted a foal for whatever reason (money, cuteness, making the next world champion etc) To me it's not "can I make money for myself in this economy". To me it's " am I willing to risk the life of this mini so I can enjoy having a foal".

So, yes, breeding IMO should be left to those who are capable of handling the choice they have made - be that the emotional strength to cope with a loss, the financial where withal to do everything possible to save a suffering mare/foal, the knowledge that the current market conditions will allow a probable sale at fair value and finally...and I'm not seeing people doing this...spaying or neutering ANY offspring not as good or better than the parents that bred them. Many cat and dog breeders do this...why don't we (Rhetorical ? - I know why - $$$$)


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## Matt73 (Mar 30, 2011)

Tab said:


> It's okay that this started a debate and made us all think, me included. I have a lot to learn always. This thought, feeling, whatever you want to call it has been bubbling under the surface for a long time. I appreciate every post, even those I disagree with, have taken me out of context, or aren't directing their comments at the original post. The reason why I targeted the newbie? Because there are established farms that seem completely unaware that there is an overpopulation problem and will never change their ways, producing another large group of foals this year and next. In this post or last I have not directed my comments toward _any_ individual here.
> 
> If a newbie whose interest in miniature horses has just sparked I hope they read these posts. This is not the time to jump into breeding, and it's never the time if they plan on making money. If we are to warn someone who doesn't know enough to know better, then we are being responsible horse owners. You _*WON'T*_ make money on minis is the moral of the story. Newbies are the most likely to have this notion. I do not want to steer people away from owning miniature horses. This is an amazing breed that can be enjoyed in so many ways. If we bred half as much there are still more than enough to go around!
> 
> Do I think horses should be licensed and people should be charged for selling horses? Absolutely not! I don't believe that the larger sector has any business in this. It all comes down to personal responsibility. Let me also say that having a plan is very important. I would say that most of us breed for ourselves even if you do sell a few a year but it's important to know honestly when the limit is reached.


I totally agree. Also, it's the true "newbies" that don't know anything about horses, get a mare and a stallion right off the bat and start breeding, that I'm thinking about. And, I'm also not pointing fingers at anyone, specifically, on here or even only miniatures. This is a miniature horse forum, so we're focusing on that. But the same problem exists in the big horse world, too (on an even bigger scale). Do you know how many really nice off-the-track Thoroughbreds with amazing pedigrees go to slaughter every year?


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## txminipinto (Mar 30, 2011)

I'm not pointing at anyone here either. But when I wrote what I did, I was thinking of the feed store down the road that has poor quality, pot bellied minis in a pen outside every weekend for sale at $200. I would love to know who is providing these animals and sneak on their farm to geld everything with testicles.


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## Raine Ranch Minis (Mar 30, 2011)

MindyLee said:


> Well I guess Ill be the 1st one to admitt...
> 
> When I 1st got into minis in 2004, I started off with a little fat stallion who I just thought the world of. I knew nothing about registrations or conformation. Well I did buy a mare to be his girlfriend and to breed to to make lots of easy money. I did have my foal, a cute little colt and I put a HUGE price tag on him cause I thought I could. 7 months later he finally sold for $580 double reg. IT WAS A REAL EYE OPENER cause I was a newbie and though "I was going to be big and rich and have my minis and name all over".
> 
> ...


I will be the 2nd one.

I now realize that it was a total mistake!! I should have NEVER bought him! 



I still love him though.





BUT he was Registered AMHR, and because of him I bought a Wonderful AMHR filly ( to be his girl friend which will not happen after all) and her brother a AMHR, AMHA Gelding. Then a AMHR Brood mare that turned out to be a GREAT show horse. She has gone to 4-H Regional, was the ALL Around horse in our local club, 3rd in our first "Big Show" AMHR, First in Halter,Jumping, and Second in trail in our local club. And a 2010 AMHR filly and Her bother a AMHA, AMHR Gelding. So it turned out well. (I think) My older Mare is hopefully bred to him. I am looking forward to the foal. 



 It will ether make someone around here a great pet, or I will keep it forever. 

I am gelding him next week. So he will not have anymore foals.





 

I have learned sooo much since the day he came home. 

The lady that I bought my first filly and gelding from has helped me ALOT. I am glad I found her!! < 





 

I am still a Newbie and you can flame me if you want, But it has already happened. I understand that I was naive and didn't have a clue. I have learned so much. Yet I still has SO much to learn!!!! 








Ok I will get off my soapbox now. 



 LOL 





 

 

Note: This was not ment to offend anyone. It was Just me telling my Life story.


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## Genie (Mar 30, 2011)

I think that "newbies" who are part of Lil Beginnings are better educated than those who have not been able to share the experiences, via this venue, of mini horse owners who have had experiences and have shared them.

So the o.p. in my opinion is "preaching to the choir". I fear that the "newbies" targeted in the topic are not members of this forum.


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## RhineStone (Mar 30, 2011)

Raine Ranch Minis said:


> I now realize that it was a total mistake!! I should have NEVER bought him! I still love him though.
> 
> I have learned so much. Yet I still has SO much to learn!!!!


 

Good for you, Savannah!





The longer I live, and the more I learn, the more I realize the less I know!

I'm glad the OP had the nerve to start this topic. It has been needed to be "said" a long time, and if it helps one person think twice, it has served its purpose.

As far as those that are not on this forum to read this topic and still breed indiscriminately....my husband has an acronym...CFS. It stands for "Can't Fix Stupid".



(CFS also applies to those people whom others have tried to educate, but won't listen...)


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## Jill (Mar 30, 2011)

Genie said:


> I think that "newbies" who are part of Lil Beginnings are better educated than those who have not been able to share the experiences, via this venue, of mini horse owners who have had experiences and have shared them.


I think you're very right, plus the people who are members here probably signed up because they're interested in learning more and sharing their enthusiasm for the breed... I think all of us here are hoping to learn more as we go along. If horses were a breeze, if it was all easy, it might get boring. There's always something new to learn when it comes to horses and I will tell you for a fact, anytime I start feeling like I really have a good handle on horsemanship and horse issues -- one of my beloved hay burners will do something unexpected that shows me there's still plenty more to learn


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## Knottymare (Mar 30, 2011)

MindyLee said:


> Well I guess Ill be the 1st one to admitt...
> 
> When I 1st got into minis in 2004, I started off with a little fat stallion who I just thought the world of. I knew nothing about registrations or conformation. Well I did buy a mare to be his girlfriend and to breed to to make lots of easy money. I did have my foal, a cute little colt and I put a HUGE price tag on him cause I thought I could. 7 months later he finally sold for $580 double reg. IT WAS A REAL EYE OPENER cause I was a newbie and though "I was going to be big and rich and have my minis and name all over".


I love you for saying this!!!


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 30, 2011)

You guys are so right on! You can never learn too much or know it all. Just when you get that smug atitude, like I've got it all covered, and it can't happen to me, guess what, Mother Nature throws you a monkey wrentch, and it happens to you. I never in my wildest dreams thought I would ever lose a mare, I'd lost foals before, even with the vet in attendence, but I had the smug atitude, not one of my beloved mares. I thought every thing was in place, I'd been breeeding for over 20 years, cameras on, in the barn, Vet there in attendence and mare bleed out. My beloved show mare that I had spent countless hours training, dieing in my arms trying to give me, selfish me, the foal of my dreams. I will live with that quilt for the rest of my life. She lost her life for something I did.

Any way, I knew when this was first posted that some would find the subject controversal, and hoped someone wouldn't get their feelings hurt over others opinions, and it seems that Eagle got her feelings hurt, for this I am sorry! I din't start this thread, but have made many comments on it, and find it imformative and educational, but am so sorry that Eagle got hurt feelings, I only hope she comes back to us, if not she will be missed.


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## Sandee (Mar 30, 2011)

Perhaps the title "newbie" is misused here. Some people are referring to themselves as Newbie because they just got started 1, 3, 5 years ago and some say they're Newbies because they haven't learned all there is out there to learn about these little guys. The label the OP was looking for was more like "blind, deaf, and dumb" people (and I'm not referring to physical handicaps).

A woman (that I'm sure will never see this - no computer so I can repeat it) wanted to breed her little mare which she'd only had a year or two so her grandchildren could "see the baby grow up". I told her she needed to read up. I gave her this site but they had no computer. The mare got bred and ended up delivering alone (fortunate that that worked). The mare was a madien and rejected the baby. This woman called me over and over. I giving her advise about what was needed and what to do but they didn't really want to spend the money on a good vet. I believe they did get a cow vet out once. The foal lived maybe 5 days. It was very sad to think how much suffering that mare and foal had to go thru because these people didn't do any homework, because they didn't want to spend much money, because they didn't educate themselves even when they'd been warned.

I believe that this is type of "newbies" the OP was referring to.

I've been involved in minis for only 7 yrs. and I had big horses before that. I still don't know it all. I come on here and go to clinics and read everything I can. I'm planning to breed my 6 yr old mare this year. It will be her first (and maybe last). I've had her since she was 5 mo. old and she is very special to me. She is really an "all-around" horse. She competes in almost every class there is and gives me 110% in whatever I ask. I'm in my 60s. I thought long and hard about breeding her. I certainly won't be around for the total of any of their lifetimes. It was a hard decision but I made it and I'll live with it. I do believe in training every horse I have to do multiple things. I want them to be as versatile as possible in hopes that my mare nor my stallion never end up "worthless" because all they ever did was breed.

My gelding is a perfect example of that versatile horse. He started out breeding and at 7 was gelded and put in the shows. He has done all the classes; been shown by adluts and kids. When we bought him at age 15, he was a pasture ornament that was 50 lb overweight and headed for physical disaster. He taught us how to drive. A few years later he taught my grown daughter how to drive and gave her the confidence to show. This year at 23 he's going to come back out and take my 6 yr old granddaughter to the ribbons. I believe he's much happier here than when he was overweight in that pasture with goats and lamas and dwarfs. But then maybe I'm just projecting as now I'm retired, I happier when I'm not just sitting feeling old and achy.

I'm sorry for running on...just a subject very close to my heart.


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## susanne (Mar 30, 2011)

As has been noted, the "CFS" and "blind, deaf, and dumb" categories are hardly limited to newbies, but how do you explain those (including some LB regulars with many years experience) who think that none of this applies to them?

EVERYBODY who breeds is, to some degree, part of the problem.

I'm not suggesting anyone stop breeding altogether, but spare me those who smugly point to others and suggest that they at fault.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Mar 30, 2011)

Jill said:


> Honestly, people who would get too upset over this thread and decide not to allow themselves to enjoy LB going forward are probably better off leaving the arena of online discussions. It's hard to participate in any message board if you allow the different opinions of others to upset you to the point of becoming angry or personally offended. The whole point of a message board it to share ideas and opinions. We don't all have the same ideas and the same, or even compatible, opinions. If we did all hold the same opinions and ways of handling our horses, we'd really just have boring discussions that wouldn't offer much room for learning!
> 
> That said, I don't want anyone to leave. However, maybe some people can take a second glance at what's actually been said and evaluate if it's _really_ something worth being personally upset or offended over. While I didn't read each post, I didn't see anyone held out as a negative example or any fingers pointing at any specific person. I for one can promise I had no individual member or farm in mind when I expressed my point of view. I really feel that's the case with other replies, too.



you say that, but people on this forum can and do say VERY hurtful things if they dont agree. i should know





the only reason i stick around is because of the learning opprotunities





and because of the cute foal announcements



lol


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## kaykay (Mar 30, 2011)

An important thing to note is to always give back. I always say to people to support CMHR because one day they may rescue a horse you bred. It can happen to any of us that sell horses or breed. I always try really hard to help horses in need whenever I can whether that be donating money or time or networking to find a horse a home.

I was talking to my neighbor that runs a foaling farm the other day (one of the most knowledgeable horsewomen I know) and she said shes still learning almost daily.

There is so much information to take in when it comes to horses and you have to keep learning and trying to evolve.

Kay


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## Jill (Mar 30, 2011)

susanne said:


> As has been noted, the "CFS" and "blind, deaf, and dumb" categories are hardly limited to newbies, but how do you explain those (including some LB regulars with many years experience) who think that none of this applies to them?
> 
> EVERYBODY who breeds is, to some degree, part of the problem.
> 
> I'm not suggesting anyone stop breeding altogether, but spare me those who smugly point to others and suggest that they at fault.


I do not think that everyone who breeds is part of a problem. Some of those who breed are setting great examples and they are proving the worth and the advancement of their programs every single year. I am very thankful to some outstanding breeders because some have helped me along the way, through mentoring, sharing information, and by making available to me some of the horses I hold so dear.


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## Raine Ranch Minis (Mar 30, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> [/size][/font]Good for you, Savannah!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thank You!


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## barnbum (Mar 31, 2011)

One area I've always pondered, is why so many breed year after year. It seems less often would help a breeder to see who will sell, who won't, and to plan on time/space/money before breeding again and again and again. Some may have 5-40 foals on the ground, then find out they aren't selling, but all the mares are bred again. Then a trip is made to auction, or in desperation no checks are done on buyers, in order to make space for the new ones.





I was a very small breeder--only had six foals born here--two every other year. Every other year gave me the chance to re-evaluate the situation before breeding again. Three of mine were sold--two not until they were 3-4 years old, and three are still here because they're part of my heart herd. I've had nice offers on several of them (even though they're not for sale!), but I don't need/want to sell. As long as the two fillies born here are in my care, they will never be bred. There are enough minis out there.

Take a year off of breeding--the market will appreciate it and so will your mares.


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## Connie P (Mar 31, 2011)

kaykay said:


> An important thing to note is to always give back. I always say to people to support CMHR because one day they may rescue a horse you bred. It can happen to any of us that sell horses or breed. I always try really hard to help horses in need whenever I can whether that be donating money or time or networking to find a horse a home.
> 
> I was talking to my neighbor that runs a foaling farm the other day (one of the most knowledgeable horsewomen I know) and she said shes still learning almost daily.
> 
> ...


This is where I am at right now also - I only breed a few that are very well planned and that I can afford to keep should they not sell (to approved homes I might add). I work very hard at rescue as my way of giving back (Current President of CMHR). I try to learn something each and every day as one can never know everything.


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Mar 31, 2011)

Interesting thread and yes, I've read it in its entirety.

Usually this time of year there are tons of foal announcements both on the main forum and the photo pages and even duplicated in the special foal arrivals at the very top that ML has pinned.

We all so enjoy (*or at least the comments and feedback lead one to believe we all enjoy it - nobody responds with "why on earth did you breed any this year - shame on you"*) seeing the beautiful lil gifts everyone is getting and most of us - I think - look forward to the new foal announcements this time of year. We're stale and bored from the long dead winter and the foal announcements add alittle excitement maybe?

We not only enjoy looking at others and congratulating them, but don't we all like to share our excitement and show them off? Gosh, we've all waited 11 months for these little bundles and planned their breeding very carefully and hope we get what we expected and more importantly, alive and healthy first and foremost. Why else would anyone post a new foal announcement if not? You're not allowed to mention in any way shape or form that it might be available for sale, so if you're not wanting to share and see what people think of your new baby, why post at all?

*So, with that said - What I'm wondering NOW is* ..........................how many who normally post their new babies will refrain from posting their new foals after this thread?

How many will hold back and not post their special baby for fear of what folks might think but simply not say in their comment - or not comment at all because they don't agree with the fact you had any babies at all in this economy anyway?

I (we) for one probably won't share any at all on LB (and yes we have some on the ground already) .... .... as now already feel I'm in a taboo category for breeding even one based on everyones feelings here. More and more I understand why the big name farms don't post stuff on LB.

If folks want to see what's happening on this farm - they can see us on FB. I'm not leaving LB by any means and will continue to participate as usual, but most likely won't be announcing any new arrivals on LB this year ................. _** you understand that Holly? *_

_ _

_Honestly, I'm not picking a fight - no intention of that - and not taking sides - but after reading everything here - - this is my initial feeling - - don't share our babies this year for fear of what people think of us breeding at all._

(I came back to add one more sentence: there are folks that have commented on this thread that have already posted their 2011 new arrivals ....... food for thought huh?)


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## MindyLee (Mar 31, 2011)

WhiteTailsMinis said:


> Interesting thread and yes, I've read it in its entirety.
> 
> Usually this time of year there are tons of foal announcements both on the main forum and the photo pages and even duplicated in the special foal arrivals at the very top that ML has pinned.
> 
> ...


Well that just sucks! I enjoy seeing your foals but I guess I'll just stalk your website more ofter! But cant blam you if this struck a nerve.

I've been bitting my finger to make sure I dont point fingers so I just put my own experiance on here instead which admitted my wrongful breeding and my reasoning behind it when I very 1st got into minis yrs back. Things have changed and so has my reasoning to why I should breed and what I breed. I was a "newbie" and will always be one as I learn everyday something new. If it was'nt for many of the topics here and even the heated ones, I would still be in the same mindset I was in back whan I 1st purchased my 1st mini in 2004. Most of what I learn here I pass on to the next "newbie" cause I never had anyone tell me any kind of info about minis. I just jumped in feet 1st and learned on my own.

*HERE'S WHAT REALLY HAPPENS!*

I work at a feed store (TSC) and I cant tell you how many folks who get into any type of animal wants to jump in feet 1st like I did and almost everytime in the first part of my conversation, Breeding my new pets for proffit comes up. I never tell them dont do it, but I do educate them the best I can in the fastest and nicest way I can while standing there. Many of these new pet owners are 1st time mini horses owners and I EVERYTIME give them my bussiness card with this website on the back for them to visite to get all the info they can inquire from here. I have had folks think twice about breeding right away, they may later, but to purchas and breed right away, they think more into it when I inform them its not all what it seems to be. I again tell them to visit the Fourm to see the real proof of what breeding can end up like. I also usally know what local farm they bought their new mini from and it scares me to hear what the seller has planted in their head about how great and rich the new owner can be if they breed their new mini cause its got reg applacatins or the reg itself or a famouse horse in its bloodline somewhere. I again, never put the farm down but use my minis as a example for them and show them photos on my phone and show them what it takes to have minis who make money. They look at my pro photo shots and go "oh my" and I then say, I havnt made a dime on them. It's just a really nice photo. But see how I could tell you a lie so easily? I do strive to change their minds and give them the local mini horse club info and tell them about enjoying them in the showring instead. And if they want to breed Please read up on it and if they have any questions, PLEASE call me and I will help you or point you in the right direction the best I can.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 31, 2011)

WhiteTailsMinis said:


> Interesting thread and yes, I've read it in its entirety.
> 
> Usually this time of year there are tons of foal announcements both on the main forum and the photo pages and even duplicated in the special foal arrivals at the very top that ML has pinned.
> 
> ...


Marlene,

I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying here. Are you saying you purposely don't post announcements/pics of your new foals here (I thought you hadn't just because you were too busy) because you're thinking people will be holding some judgement on you because you bred a mare?

If that's the reason you wouldn't post, poo on that!



Post away!!! I for one want to see your little darlings! Everyone is entitled to breed as many as they wish and again I think this post wasn't intended to tell certain folks not to breed, it was a reminder to us all to do it with thought. And obviously, you do it with MUCH thought!



It's good for all of us, myself included, to be reminded once in a while about why we do this, have we really thought through all the aspects, are we in a position to handle the outcomes, etc. To me, this is what this post is about...reminding us to think before we leap. That's all.


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Mar 31, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Marlene,
> 
> I'm not sure I quite understand what you're saying here. Are you saying you purposely don't post announcements/pics of your new foals here (I thought you hadn't just because you were too busy) because you're thinking people will be holding some judgement on you because you bred a mare?
> 
> ...


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## HGFarm (Mar 31, 2011)

I think this post is geared towards those who just think they are going to mass produce, or have foals that they think they are going to make a bunch of money on, not caring what kind of home they go to.. the dollar is the big thing.

And I think the moral of the post is, if you cant afford them or they aren't selling and you cant keep them, dont breed, or cut back, or something.

I will continue to breed, for a couple of foals a year, as I enjoy them and have really not had that much trouble selling them. And I will continue to post them here, as I truly enjoy them and know that others do too. I love seeing everyone else's foals in the spring as well. I live my life to be happy, whether someone else agrees or not with what I am doing... well, that is their prerogative. Perhaps what is good for me is not good for them, and visa versa.

ETA: If you have to haul your horses to an auction every year to indiscriminately dump them because you have no room for the new ones due and they are not selling at all, then I would say perhaps it's time to think about what or how many you are producing.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Mar 31, 2011)

HGFarm said:


> If you have to haul your horses to an auction every year to indiscriminately dump them because you have no room for the new ones due and they are not selling at all, then I would say perhaps it's time to think about what or how many you are producing.



I agree. I think that is exactly what the topic is about. If you're selling your foals and you are happy with the homes they go to, the price you receive, etc., then by all means do as you wish. But if you aren't getting what you'd hoped, you're selling to anyone who has cash with no regard for the quality of the home, then you are not, imo, doing yourself or the horses any justice. And maybe you should re-think what you're doing - for your own good. Having too many horses is stressful, costly, and one astronomical vet bill can do your entire year's budget in.

I had one foal coming this year. It didn't make it. The mare almost didn't make it. That one event was a VERY expensive tragedy. It was also emotionally draining and that has a cost too. Do I miss having a little one to play with? You bet! I had a lot of hopes and dreams for that baby that will not never be realized, but at the same time I'm kind of glad I don't have anymore coming this year as that one experience was enough for me for now.

Am I already scared to death about the one (possible) foal I have planned for 2012? You bet!




As has been said a thousand times on here, breeding is not for the faint of heart or for a thin pocketbook.


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## stormy (Mar 31, 2011)

Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:

1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.

2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...*everyone*, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Mar 31, 2011)

stormy said:


> Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:
> 
> 2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...*everyone*, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!



I'll be bashed for sure on this one - but I'll reply anyway and see if I can get on paper (computer) what is in my mind - sometimes it doesn't always convey exactly the way its meant but here goes, the best way I can:

Our conversations at home about cutting back on breeding - from a FINANCIAL standpoint of business bottom lines.....

If you are going to cut back on breeding - meaning the number of foals you have the following year, then from a financial outlay of costs, you should sell the number of mares you are not breeding. WHY??

a) because that mare still costs the same dollar amount to maintain the entire year ..... feed, hay, supplements, wormer, vaccines, farrier and supplies, electric to run water barrels, barn lights, fencing repairs etc. Anyone ever sat down and determined per horse what your annual cost is?

b) Everyone talks about you can't get rich - NO but you can with a well thought out program recoup some your expenses by selling the foal. A breeder once said if you can at least cover the majority of your expenses, you are successful.

c) so to continue on that thought ........ if I don't have a foal to offer for sale, then I have spent all that money on that mare to get nothing in return. Those foals I keep - well the ones I don't keep hopefully bring a good price to offset the expense of the mare who's foal I did keep. And that foal later becomes part of the program so she's an asset that I did not have to outlay cash to purchase elsewhere.

d) problem I see with selling the mares you don't plan to breed is two-fold:

1) not all your mares you breed will settle. You don't know that beforehand and possibly you sell a few and the ones you do breed, only half take?

2) when the market does come back around - as you say "take a year off" ... then what? You have to go out and buy more mares cause you have sold yours?

3) and you may end up paying more for the new mare in the new economy than what you got for her sale in the old economy.

Perhaps this didn't all come out right - and the darn thing posted before I was done - so now I'm editting - hopefully you'll come back to read the finished product. LOL


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 31, 2011)

WhiteTailsMinis said:


> I'll be bashed for sure on this one - but I'll reply anyway and see if I can get on paper (computer) what is in my mind - sometimes it doesn't always convey exactly the way its meant but here goes, the best way I can:
> 
> Our conversations at home about cutting back on breeding - from a FINANCIAL standpoint of business bottom lines.....
> 
> ...


White tail, I agree with you 100%, We have figured out how much it cost to hold on to and maintain our mares and stallions, without a return on our money. As such we are taking action, as I'm sure some others will as well. Plus our hay farmer just passed, and the hay fields are being sold, probably to a developer and sub divided. Hay will be costly this year.


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## Riverdance (Mar 31, 2011)

Whitetails...I would not feel that this topic is directed towards you, or any specific person or farm. We all know that there are too many Minis out there that people do not want. Most of us as breeders, are trying to improve our program and hopefully show a few of the new foals when they are yearlings. But, when we have more foals then we can possibly show, we have to start taking a second look at what we are doing. Yes, many a planned foal does not turn out to be what we hoped , and we all know that we can breed 10 mares and only have 5 foals. But we all need to cut back if there is any hope to see the Mini market pick up again.

This topic is not going to stop me from breeding, nor is it going to stop me from posting pictures of my foals, but hopefully this topic will make every breeder stop and think.

We all look forward to seeing pictures of the new foals and no one is going to judge you if you show them. I for one, am looking forward to seeing them.


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Mar 31, 2011)

*Please allow me to reiterate* - that my above post was the *outcome of discussions that GOES ON IN MY HOUSE ON MY FARM WITH OUR FAMILY DISCUSSIONS regarding this business.* It is not intented as instructions or recommendations to anyone else or exactly how I feel either. It's simply how we look at it.

My hubby has always been the backbone of this operation, both labor wise and financially. He's got the final say (always has for 34 years LOL). The above post is his way of looking at things from a business standpoint of bottom line dollar and is from the perspective of the number of horses we have at this time. I do understand its very different with only a handful of horses.

Lord knows we love the horses and enjoy them and its a full blown family affair here. BUT, its definitely hard work and 24/7 (which we do ontop of our full time jobs) - so if we were not making some income from them, all of them wouldn't be here. All I would need is one for each grandchild and enjoy life at the beach here and there LOL and be able to throw those crappy ol coveralls away LOL


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## MindyLee (Mar 31, 2011)

I dont breed every yr and no big deal if I have a foal or not. The $$$ I get from a foal sure dose happen to help when I need it the most tho.





I can say I agree with WhiteTail as well. I thought of selling 3 of my most expencive and pedigreed minis. Then I think, their not only here to be bred, but part of my mini horse family. Also, I would never ever get a chance again EVER to get them kind of nice minis again. My stallion Sentra, He's a double bred King Supreme son with killer confirmation and movement! I would never get another oppertunity to own such a great horse and whos a piece of history. So he stays even if I dont get hardly any foals or any from him. The only foal I got I kept cause she's my baby girl and she's not breedable (or in my eyes) cause she only 27 inchs tall and too ultra refined and weights in about 150 lbs at 2 yrs old. oh and did I say she's my baby girl lol.


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Mar 31, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> Whitetails...I would not feel that this topic is directed towards you, or any specific person or farm. We all know that there are too many Minis out there that people do not want. Most of us as breeders, are trying to improve our program and hopefully show a few of the new foals when they are yearlings. But, when we have more foals then we can possibly show, we have to start taking a second look at what we are doing. Yes, many a planned foal does not turn out to be what we hoped , and we all know that we can breed 10 mares and only have 5 foals. But we all need to cut back if there is any hope to see the Mini market pick up again.
> 
> This topic is not going to stop me from breeding, nor is it going to stop me from posting pictures of my foals, but hopefully this topic will make every breeder stop and think.
> 
> We all look forward to seeing pictures of the new foals and no one is going to judge you if you show them. I for one, am looking forward to seeing them.


_Thank you - and no, I didn't take it personally or thought it was directed to me. Not at all. But I am still breeding and I am having more than a handful of foals .......so I do fit the category in which some comments are made. I have not seen any finger pointing at all and see it as general statements (which is good)._

_ _


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## lil hoofbeats (Mar 31, 2011)

WhiteTailsMinis said:


> I'll be bashed for sure on this one - but I'll reply anyway and see if I can get on paper (computer) what is in my mind - sometimes it doesn't always convey exactly the way its meant but here goes, the best way I can:
> 
> Our conversations at home about cutting back on breeding - from a FINANCIAL standpoint of business bottom lines.....
> 
> ...


Finished product???? sounds perfect to me!!!!! I ditto everything you just typed!!!!!!!! Except i will add a bit of my own.

I agressively try to get EVERY mare i have in foal. around 30 at any given time, give or take a few. I will loose a certain amount due to Mother Nature claiming her own. I will loose one or two(foals) due to dystocias of some type(even though we have them on cameras and giveing them the best monitoring i can do). Some of the foals in spite of good parents are just not the quality i feel they should be, and are sold or given away as pets. A few of the foals will be spectacular! and will fetch a high price even in this economy, and those are the ones that will keep me a float. You never know which mare that wonderful foal will come out of either, so guess what? *the more mares i have in foal, the better my odds*. *I will spent the same amount of money on feed and care regardless if that mare is in foal or not. So i will try to get a pay check from them if i can. *I look at this as a business that i enjoy and i am very good at, as i have turned a profit for the past 3 years. We guarentee all foals at our farm to DNA test and parent qualify. If i leave a mare off the stallion report i pay for it, if something does not parent qualify,(this has never happened)we refund the purchase price, and shipping if any was involved. I take pride in my horses, and feel they are some of the nicer ones. I am proud of my breeding program, and work very hard to maintain a high standard. I am a PROUD *breeder* of the Miniature Horse. *I will continue to breed, foal out, and sell Miniature horse foals from my farm!* [email protected] Lil Hoofbeats *Loud & Clear!!! *


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Mar 31, 2011)

lil hoofbeats said:


> Finished product???? sounds perfect to me!!!!! I ditto everything you just typed!!!!!!!! Except i will add a bit of my own.
> 
> I agressively try to get EVERY mare i have in foal. around 30 at any given time, give or take a few. I will loose a certain amount due to Mother Nature claiming her own. I will loose one or two(foals) due to dystocias of some type(even though we have them on cameras and giveing them the best monitoring i can do). Some of the foals in spite of good parents are just not the quality i feel they should be, and are sold or given away as pets. A few of the foals will be spectacular! and will fetch a high price even in this economy, and those are the ones that will keep me a float. You never know which mare that wonderful foal will come out of either, so guess what? *the more mares i have in foal, the better my odds*. *I will spent the same amount of money on feed and care regardless if that mare is in foal or not. So i will try to get a pay check from them if i can. *I look at this as a business that i enjoy and i am very good at, as i have turned a profit for the past 3 years. We guarentee all foals at our farm to DNA test and parent qualify. If i leave a mare off the stallion report i pay for it, if something does not parent qualify,(this has never happened)we refund the purchase price, and shipping if any was involved. I take pride in my horses, and feel they are some of the nicer ones. I am proud of my breeding program, and work very hard to maintain a high standard. I am a PROUD *breeder* of the Miniature Horse. *I will continue to breed, foal out, and sell Miniature horse foals from my farm!* [email protected] Lil Hoofbeats *Loud & Clear!!! *


Thank you Julie - perfectly put! Now is when I'd really love to see that "LIKE" button!



Kudos to you for your openess and honesty and sticking by your guns. Nice to know we're not alone - thank you for that.


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## susanne (Mar 31, 2011)

stormy said:


> Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:
> 
> 1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.
> 
> 2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...*everyone*, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!


This.

Thank you, Stormy.

.


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## midnight star stables (Mar 31, 2011)

I find some of these posts rather upsetting. From the view of a person who loves their miniatures, and can accept that they could be a "business" I really dislike hearing about pony "puppy-mills" - irregardless of WHO it is. Making a busniess out of your farm does NOT mean breeding 10, 20, 30, 100 foals a year!

I look at my horse and see _a horse_. Not an OVEN!



I'll happily keep a mare if I like her for who she is, not what she can give me.



And if she can't foal, that's okay too - to me.

KayKay is a breeder I look at who runs her farm like a business, not a pony-mill. There are other huge name breeders out there who's programs I love, many produce huge numbers of foals each year. That said if you look at their herds have many open mares each year. They might have 20 foals in a year, but 40 mares in their herd. These are large scale breeders whom I admire.

I don't mean to offend anyone, but I feel it is sad that so many owners of minis, dogs, cats, etc., breed just for the profit they hope to see.



Flame suite on.



stormy said:


> Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:
> 
> 1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.
> 
> 2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...*everyone*, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!


Stormy, I agree. This is how I feel about this whole topic, summarized nicely.

This thread come up every year. It is not truly directed at "Newbies" so please don't take offence to the reference in which it was used.


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## dixie_belle (Mar 31, 2011)

I have read the comments on this thread with interest. I must admit to being a "newbie". I am very much still in the learning stages....only had my boys for 5 years now. I wonder is there ever a time when a person can honestly say they know everything?? So, in some ways, we may all still have a little bit of "newbie" in us.

But here is my major comment. I have to wonder if this thread would be happening at all if prices were not down. Whether it is due to the economy or over breading does not matter at this point. If prices were high, would everyone out there be breeding, willy nilly? I fear so. Simply because it would then be worth while to do so. I do not breed. I will never breed any of my mini horses. I simply do not know enough about confirmation, nor do I care to. I have pets. I do not breed pets...not my horses, my cats or my dogs. Even my chickens are all of the same sex (I think).

So where do we go from here? Well, if we want prices to increase we, as owners, must curb breeding. There is no other option. Anyone who has ever bred pet quality horses and who wants to know who is to fault for inferior horses/poor prices, go look in the mirror. I have seen the fate of too many of these "pet quality" horses. I have taken in one of these myself, as a rescue. Would I sell him for a million dollars.....NEVER. Is he worth a plug nickel......NEVER. We, the mini owners, have done this to overselves.


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## RhineStone (Mar 31, 2011)

I, for one, don't read the Foal Announcements. I would be one of those that would look at a mare and say to myself, "Why did they breed that? She's short in the croup, tall in the hip, and cowhocked." etc. I don't want to put myself through that, no matter how "cute" the foals are. I don't think any of my mares are worth breeding (I wish I had another one or two of my show gelding, though!






)

I wish a whole lot more people would give up the "pedigree & barn blindness", and truly evaluate their stock before reproducing them. The quality of the breed overall would go up, the sheer numbers would go down, and the value of the individual animals would increase.


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## ohmt (Mar 31, 2011)

I definitely agree with you midnight star! We have 35 minis here and we only breed for a few foals a year (this year expecting 8, but this is our last year having more than 2) because I believe that mares need a break. I can't imagine having to nourish/carry, nurse, and raise a foal year after year, but I guess that's just me. We have no problems selling fillies/mares, but have seen a large decline in colt interest. We are gelding and training as much as possible and trying to sell them to good youth homes as the youth are our future and what a better way to get them started than a great gelding, right?

I don't mind breeders having more than a few foals a year. What matters to me is that they are responsible about it. There are many things that go along with that, but I won't get into that. It's the breeders that create a bunch of foals and then sell them for super low prices and/or push them through auctions that hurt the economy.

*Rhinestone-I agree with you too. WAY too many people put too much of an emphasis on pedigree and color instead of conformation. They should just be icing on the cake.


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## Tab (Mar 31, 2011)

stormy said:


> Interesting thread and interesting to see peoples interpretations. What I take from this is yes all breeders are part of the problem....ALL BREEDERS...including myself. I hear the message in two parts:
> 
> 1: If you are buying minis as pets, as newbies, don't breed just for fun or because you have a boy and a girl and no fence to keep them apart, if you are going to breed pick the best animals you can afford to compliment each other and educate yourself before breeding that first mare.
> 
> 2: I am also hearing for all of us that breed, breed fewer or none...*everyone*, doesn't matter how famous, how terrific your program, how proven, for a while breed fewer mares! I have cut breeding in half over the last several years, others have as well, some have taken a year or two off...some very well known farms with terrific breeding programs...all of us can make a difference in the future of the breed...if every farm cut back by just 10% this year what a difference that would make!


Yes!


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## Molly's Run Minis (Mar 31, 2011)

midnight star stables said:


> I look at my horse and see _a horse_. Not an OVEN!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I totally agree. horses arent JUST baby makers and i wish more people would realize that





i have 2 mares and after much thought i'm NEVER gonna breed either of them. Why? Because one is too small and refined and i'm scared to death of losing the other one.

does that mean i'm gonna get rid of them because they cant "pay for themselves"? HECK NO! they mean the world to me, whether they can pop out babies every year or not





i'm not against breeding, but i do think it needs to slow down a tad, because there are more horses than there are good homes right now. i tried to sell my gelding, who's kid safe, AMHA reg, broke to drive, done parades, is walked on roads, is bombproof, has awesome manners and is a total clown for only $800(his only real fault is he's shy until he gets to know the person) and the only responses i got were scammers and one lady who wanted to, and i quote, "use him for a riding pony for my 12yr old daughter"



: keep in mind he's 29" at three yrs old. i didnt reply to that e-mail, and have decided to just keep him...plus he's kinda grown on me


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## tagalong (Mar 31, 2011)

> The more mares i have in foal, the better my odds. I will spent the same amount of money on feed and care regardless if that mare is in foal or not. So i will try to get a pay check from them if i can.


WIth all due respect, if you substitute the word _bitches_ for _mares_ and _pregnant_ for _in foal_ , that is how puppy mills rationalize their breeding practices. I am not saying that is what _you _are doing, but that is how puppy mills validate what _they_ are doing.

You do not need to "improve your odds" by having that many foals on the ground - instead, you can breed selectively with the horses you have. This farm has bred maybe 30 mares in the last 7 YEARS and has had a lot of success and many excellent foals. Quantity does not guarantee quality. Foals are not a product on an assembly line, but something carefully considered and planned. Mares deserve a break - even if they are breeding sound, they deserve a break. Especially if they had a dystocia. We also have retired broodies here who simply get to laze around. They do not have to earn their keep or churn out foals on a strict schedule.

It's simply good management. JMHO. And that of every farm I have ever worked on - a variety of breeds and disciplines.





_*zips up flame-retardant suit*_







> I don't mean to offend anyone, but I feel it is sad that so many owners of minis, dogs, cats, etc., breed just for the profit they hope to see. Flame suite on.


Agreed. _*adds second suit*_


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## Molly's Run Minis (Mar 31, 2011)

tagalong said:


> WIth all due respect, if you substitute the word _bitches_ for _mares_ and _pregnant_ for _in foal_ , that is how puppy mills rationalize their breeding practices. I am not saying that is what _you _are doing, but that is how puppy mills validate what _they_ are doing.
> 
> You do not need to "improve your odds" by having that many foals on the ground - instead, you can breed selectively with the horses you have. This farm has bred maybe 30 mares in the last 7 YEARS and has had a lot of success and many excellent foals. Quantity does not guarantee quality. Foals are not a product on an assembly line, but something carefully considered and planned. Mares deserve a break - even if they are breeding sound, they deserve a break. Especially if they had a dystocia. We also have retired broodies here who simply get to laze around. They do not have to earn their keep or churn out foals on a strict schedule.
> 
> ...


i totally agree, just didnt wanna say it for fear of getting flamed.


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## Magic (Mar 31, 2011)

This thread is one reason I so love this forum. On most forums a subject like this would go hand in hand with name-calling and worse, but I've seen quite a bit of respect in these posts even though there are a lot of differing opinions. I enjoy reading these kinds of things with an open mind and looking at all sides of the subject, and come away always learning something new.

Here, we started as we all must, as newbies to the mini horse world. We'd had full sized horses since childhood but never had shown. It was a whole new experience with miniatures. I was lucky enough to find a superb mentor immediately who helped me learn so much. We did a little breeding, sold foals, did a lot of showing and had plenty of success. Fast forward to our moving to our new, larger place, and our increased herd size, and the bottom falling out of the market with the depressed economy. We have over 40 horses and had built up to breeding seven to eight foals a year, but now we are considering taking a year off breeding, then possibly doing very limited breeding, and cutting back on the number of horses we have as well. Yes, horses are still selling for us, but the prices aren't as good as they had been, and I do recognize that as a breeder, I am contributing to the overpopulation of horses. We are expecting some foals this year but as always, we bred for what we want to keep. Any horses that are advertised for sale and don't sell are kept and well-cared for, for the rest of their lives if need be. We have one old retired mare (27 years old) that we got simply because she is the dam to our favorite mare and as such I felt that she deserved an excellent retirement. We have some other mares that are in their mid-teens who will stay here forever too, just to be retired and cared for. We were doing this as a business for years but we are thinking about cutting back, doing it as just a hobby and not have to worry about "the bottom line". To me, the horses are the important thing.


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 31, 2011)

To Magic, you said it all, Amen! I didn't breed any mares this year either, too many out there, The mares need a break, I need a break, time to reevaluate. Amen!


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## splash's mom (Mar 31, 2011)

Guess What?

I'm a newbie to miniatures only a couple years under my belt,( although I have had big horses all my life) and the first mini I got was,are you ready for it... a STALLION, why you ask? because there are a ton of them out there and nobody want's them or they just want a different "Better Stud". Do you know what I did with him? Sent him to the trainers and got him trained to drive, guess what's happening in a couple of weeks? he's getting gelded!!!! He was a quite well mannered boy but he is still going to be a gelding and God willing I will have him till the day he dies. I just bought him a friend, and you know what? another STALLION, who will also be trained to drive and gelded. Okay all sarcasm aside. I have a question. Why are'nt more of these horses being sold as Geldings?( I realize money is involved) but if you're breeding and it's not something you are going to keep at least geld. Wouldnt that help a little? I will tell you that when I bought my guy I heard through the grapevine a comment from a reputable breeder in my area that said " Oh God why did she get a stud? We don't need anymore back yard breeders" What I have to say to that is " Who said I was planning to breed him" It didnt give me a warm fuzzy feeling about joining any mini clubs in my area. Just my two cents worth.


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## barnbum (Mar 31, 2011)

Good for you, splash's mom! Thank you! After our six foals, I had my stallion gelded because if I felt there were too many minis in the world, selling him as a stallion would not be walking the talk. My only colt born here, the last foal and a keeper, was also gelded.


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## ruffian (Mar 31, 2011)

splash said:


> Guess What?
> 
> I'm a newbie to miniatures only a couple years under my belt,( although I have had big horses all my life) and the first mini I got was,are you ready for it... a STALLION, why you ask? because there are a ton of them out there and nobody want's them or they just want a different "Better Stud". Do you know what I did with him? Sent him to the trainers and got him trained to drive, guess what's happening in a couple of weeks? he's getting gelded!!!! He was a quite well mannered boy but he is still going to be a gelding and God willing I will have him till the day he dies. I just bought him a friend, and you know what? another STALLION, who will also be trained to drive and gelded. Okay all sarcasm aside. I have a question. Why are'nt more of these horses being sold as Geldings?( I realize money is involved) but if you're breeding and it's not something you are going to keep at least geld. Wouldnt that help a little? I will tell you that when I bought my guy I heard through the grapevine a comment from a reputable breeder in my area that said " Oh God why did she get a stud? We don't need anymore back yard breeders" What I have to say to that is " Who said I was planning to breed him" It didnt give me a warm fuzzy feeling about joining any mini clubs in my area. Just my two cents worth.


Good for you! There are lots of folks who get a stallion, and the first thought is to get a mare and start making some money. I agree there needs to be more folks realizing what is stallion material, and what is gelding material. I went from 8 stallions to 1 mature and 1 jr. and if Jr doesn't work out like I expect him to, he'll be a gelding too.

It's too bad you got a bad taste from the mini club. Most are excellent places to get information and make friends.


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## lucky seven (Mar 31, 2011)

I am not into showing and don't need papers to drive or just to take for a walk. I prefer geldings. I would like another mni and my farrier told me to look for a free one as there are too many horses needing homes. I have owned my mini for less than a year and would never breed.


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## Taylor Richelle (Apr 1, 2011)

midnight star stables said:


> "I find some of these posts rather upsetting. From the view of a person who loves their miniatures, and can accept that they could be a "business" I really dislike hearing about pony "puppy-mills" - irregardless of WHO it is. Making a busniess out of your farm does NOT mean breeding 10, 20, 30, 100 foals a year! "
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## [email protected] (Apr 1, 2011)

Great thread. We've been needing one of these!





Couple of thoughts -

1. For those that dislike the BIG farms or disreputable breeders that breed too many and take to auction, etc., Why patronize them? If I don't like a breeder's practices, I won't enable them by buying their horses. That's like buying a dog from a puppy mill then complaining about puppy mills. There's one of those types in Southern Oregon, you couldn't give me a horse from her ranch, and I actively tell people looking in that area to avoid anything she's remotely associated with - wonky, bad paperwork, just awful. The random 'nice' horses are ruined by her practices.

2. Don't the breeders on here have some responsibility for enabling the 'newbies' to start breeding if they're selling them wonky stallions and/or mares as breeding quality? Or telling them you'll make $$ breeding. (I'm not saying LB people do, but breeders in general) The people that do breed and sell, do you offer to mentor/advise people that buy from you? Do you follow up? I know I do try to educate everyone that comes out here, I didn't get that 'mentor' help when I started, and I'm perfectly willing to help others, often with alot of 'don't do what I did' scenarios.

3. IMHO. Breeders - and I don't care if it's one or fifty you're putting on the ground. It all adds up. I took nine Minis back last year (rescues basically), that I felt responsible for. I had only bred one of them, but I had previously owned the others and sold them to the homes they needed out of. Did I need to do that, no. But in good conscious, I couldn't have left them there.

I know my favorite Mini here that would be the last to ever leave me, I don't breed her, as I tried her twice, very sweet, smart foals, totally people oriented. No OMG conformation issues, but just not good enough, IMHO for her to continue breeding. Still love her, but no more genetic contributions from her as far as I'm concerned. Her two sisters on the other hand have had some awesome foals.


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## wwminis (Apr 1, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Great thread. We've been needing one of these!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Well said Michelle,

We also took back 9 horses last year! Took back an entire heard from one farm (5) very nice horses that weren't being taken care of properly! I know several breeders out there that are just in the breeding business for money!

So those are the ones we will never buy from!

Bill


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## Magic (Apr 1, 2011)

I've taken back a couple of horses lately too, one of my breeding and one that I had gotten just a few years ago but I feel responsible for. I also am taking care of another one (for free) that I'd sold since the owner has been unemployed for quite some time but he'd like to keep the horse if at all possible, but he can't afford to keep boarding where he was.

I'm looking forward to shifting my focus to showing for a while, instead of breeding. Promote miniatures, expand the pool of miniature horse buyers, and enjoy the horses that are already here.


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## SampleMM (Apr 1, 2011)

I think it's sad when a horse is viewed as a paycheck or that having a foal is a way to justify a mare's keep. I suppose that's why when I started my quest to purchase the best miniature buckskins that I could find and afford........I didn't care that they weren't bred. I knew there would not be a foal born right away to try and recoup my money rather there was a challenge for me to purchase, raise and then show the quality of my miniatures. I am very much looking forward to seeing what "Hawk" produces but It will be a couple of mares and I will wait and see what the outcome is. I wouldn't want to breed him to a mass number of mares until I see what he produces. What I'm trying to say and it may not be coming across very well, but you have to have well thought out plans. What would I do if I bred my stallion to twenty mares and most were of pet quality? There are more than enough pet quality minis out there. I'd rather keep my numbers small and no, I will never recoup my money but that's okay. It doesn't make me love, or enjoy these wonderful little horses any less.


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## Candi (Apr 1, 2011)

While we didn't breed her - we did purchase her and her foal - then sell her... Bought her back this winter - she wasn't doing well there. *Generally* we'll take back a horse if it doesn't work out... not always but most of the time.

Good business. Good for the horses.


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Apr 1, 2011)

still a very interesting thread that keeps me coming back for updates. I like the spin off one also on the training as well. all very good points in both.

Based on some statements made in these posts, I'd like to offer some insight at what actually goes on here.

we have 80 horses here, so no, we are definitely *NOT* breeding all our mares. We are breeding what we can handle as far as the stall capacity, sleepless nights, numbers of cameras etc. And even with that, not all settle so we're left with even less babies than we planned for (or bred). We started out with small numbers and have increased over the years as our experience and knowledge increased. we certainly don't know everything and learn every single day and experience new scenarios with these horses every day too. One is never overloaded on knowledge and skill and first hand experience is the best teacher in my opinion. Thank god for all our mentors out there that continue to be our supporters with advice and suggestions and tips of the trade.

We do not get bent out of shape when a mare turns up open, and she's not discarded or cared for any less. We do love our horses and find great pleasure in them. those that know us personally and have visited and touched our horses, know that we do truly handle each and every one of them daily, multiple times. They are well mannered and love attention - including our spoiled boys. I will add though that we've bought from wonderful people that also handled and cared for the horses so they came to us level headed and well mannered (one of the traits we look for is disposition and temperament). Couple that might have been less reluctant to bond with humans and aggrevated us when it took all 4 of us to corner them to catch them ...... they are the biggest spoiled brats right now and in your back pocket. Patience and love and gentleness does that to earn their trust.

We've given mares a year off - and if a few don't settle that breeding season then technically they ARE getting a year off until they are bred the following year. We pull stallions and stop breeding at a certain time. we don't leave mares endlessly until they get bred. If they are open, oh well, they try again next year. We also look at age, and condition, and maturity and hip measurements and size etc before we decide whether or not to breed. We have held mares off an additional year or two sometimes for their own good. I wanted to state we are discriminating breeders but didn't take time to look it up by definition to be called out on it. LOL but we do put alot of thought into our breeding pairs - not only what I mentioned above but size, color, heads, legs, things that compliment eachother in hopes of producing a foal with the best features of both parents. isn't that what all breeders do? Do we always get it right? nope. But we learn for the next time. nature is a funny thing and you can't rely on things not to surprise you.

There are two mares that we determined will never be bred based on their size. they are staying here as the grandbabies adore them. They too are of the temperaments that our young grandchildren can handle so they stay - even though they won't breed for us. so the statements about baby makers and ovens and keeping a mare only if she turns a buck isn't really appropriate on our farm - I'm sorry if something said earlier made one think that. My earlier post was in total, the entire program, not just one horse. The whole program should make some income to offset expenses - yep you're darn tootin it should - or we wouldn't be paying for and caring for 80 of them and working ourselves to death.

We have a mare we bought as 2 yr old supposedly pregnant. Nope, no baby that year. No baby the next or the next or the next year. Did we get frustrated? oh heck yea we did. Did we offload her? heck no we didn't! She is finally in foal now and we are so excited to see what all this waiting is going to produce for us. And if its a filly - then heck yes we'll keep it as it took 4 years to get here! LOL So, based on some comments, one would think this mare has not earned her keep? well for her individually no, but hopefully a few mares whos foals sell will sell decent and offset her costs as well.

We have purchased from many farms - and have returned for repeat purchases from many farms. We've purchased from auctions - put on by known breeders and have always been very pleased. We have not gone to local auctions - we stick with the well known breeders who are offering via auction. All the horses we've purchased over the years are still here. At some point, as our homebred fillies mature we'll offer some of the first mares we started with for sale. But we never bought a horse with the sole intention of reselling to make a buck.

Someone mentioned we stick to our prices and don't run through auctions. Nope, we haven't thus far. We have just sold two of our 2008 foals - both colts are 2 yrs old this spring. Plenty of room and food and love here so keeping them wasn't an issue and yes, they've sold finally and I got what I wanted for them. Why didnt' I geld them? That's a hard decision to make because we offer discount to offset gelding fee if the buyer wishes to have them gelded. But for me to arbitrarily geld these colts, maybe geldings don't sell as good ? one colt is actually being gelded because the purchaser wished it - and we are having the gelding procedure done the weekend we deliver him - they can do the nurse maiding there. We often suggest that a colt can be gelded if they are looking for boys or want a girl from the start cuz they don't want a colt - we always throw out the idea of gelding. is my sole motive offering to geld them becuase I am I offering that to bring down the population of reproducing? NO. I'm hoping to make a sale (yes I see you cringe on that one). yes, we do lower our prices and advertise specials BUT I have a bottom line I will not go under. It kills me to see some of the prices on the sales lists - everyone blames the breeders for producing too many but I see those that sell for pet prices hurting the industry as people think that's all it takes to get a mini - - and they'll pay more than that for a labrador or great dane!.

i had a woman who was looking at a Buckeroo grandson here - very reasonably priced at the time - back and forth on the phone and emails and yes and no and yes and maybe - and she went and bought a horse somewhere else for 800 bucks (I saw it and won't criitique it other than it was no comparison). She wrote to me and told me all about it - all excited - and then actually said "while I will return to you in the future, I will have a much more strict budget as I know now the prices the economy is dictating". HOLY COW! because someone sold her a mini for 800 bucks, she thinks that's the going rate. Hmmmmm I wish she could see this fabulous yearling colt right now in my pasture cause she will be kicking herself this spring when he is advertised again. And yes, I did offer to negotiate but don't think for a minute I'm letting our babies go that cheap.

In our area it cost $300 PLUS $80 dollar farm call to geld. If I have multiple boys and spend 380 bucks to geld each one ........ now their price is gonna go up to offset my costs. Will geldings sell for that much more? hmmmmmmm I'll reduce the price to offset their costs in gelding if they so choose but not lay out of my pocket in advance and hope someone wants a gelding who's price I just increased to cover the gelding fee. I have enough pastures to keep my boys isolated from the females and our boys are so kind they run in groups of all ages together until breeding season. So space is not a requirement here and I don't need to offload in auctions or sell for 500 bucks because more foals are coming.

We did have a stallion trained to drive and were going to geld him because he was R only and too tall for our program, but he sold. So now the cart and harness sits collecting dust until we select another to train.

Long winded I know and I'm sorry. But there have been lots of good posts on here that I wanted to address.

Couple people mentioned us by name - thank you for the compliments, but please don't single us out as there are many breeders out there with much more experience than us and many more successful years of business. we are newbies for sure and luckily learning from the best in the business. We've made so many friends its incredible. There are folks that we talk to daily! those that we call when we need answers. Folks we've sold to are emailing and instant messaging and friends on FB daily - we keep lasting relationships with everyone - whether we were the purchaser or the seller. Yes we stay in contact but I must add that our sales are usually to other mini farms and not private individuals with their first mini ... so while we have been asked for advice sometimes, its not because they are beginners buying their first mini. I just realized we have lots of mini friends that are friends and converse with regularly that we neven did business with - it's just the connection and interest and passion of the mini that brings us together. Surely if they didn't like us, or didn't approve of our program or our ways .... they wouldn't continue talking to us - maybe we're just really nice and fun people? LOL


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## chandab (Apr 1, 2011)

Magic said:


> I also am taking care of another one (for free) that I'd sold since the owner has been unemployed for quite some time but he'd like to keep the horse if at all possible, but he can't afford to keep boarding where he was.


That's awfully nice of you to help him out. Perhaps it would work to trade the horse's boarding for a little help/labor around the place (hay stacking in the summer, fence repair, etc).


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## Relic (Apr 1, 2011)

whitetailsminis that was a great post very honest l would for sure look your way next time l want a Buckeroo bred anything..l love the fact you are not coming of as one of those people who seem to show one side of your face to the public while the other private side is often times the opposite..


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## LaVern (Apr 1, 2011)

Very interesting posts. I haven't gotten to all of them yet.

I have to admit to being one of those that has added to the over population of minis. Not, that we raise huge numbers, but that we have put reproduction traits as top priority as far as what we breed for. When I first got into miniatures, and spent a fortune doing so, I was lucky if I got one dorky little live foal out of three. Now if I breed 25 mares I get 25 live unassisted live foals born. Now this used to be a good thing, I thought. I wanted to produce lines of mares that were good producing mothers and stallions that did their job in the pasture. Be careful what you wish for, I guess.

We are cutting back by breeding mares every other or every third year now. I don't know if that will throw the mares off and make it harder to breed later should we want to. I know that I will have an awful time keeping weight off the open ones.

As far as being a newbie, I think we all are. Every time I come on the Forum I learn something new.


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## ohmt (Apr 1, 2011)

> i had a woman who was looking at a Buckeroo grandson here - very reasonably priced at the time - back and forth on the phone and emails and yes and no and yes and maybe - and she went and bought a horse somewhere else for 800 bucks (I saw it and won't criitique it other than it was no comparison). She wrote to me and told me all about it - all excited - and then actually said "while I will return to you in the future, I will have a much more strict budget as I know now the prices the economy is dictating". HOLY COW! because someone sold her a mini for 800 bucks, she thinks that's the going rate. Hmmmmm I wish she could see this fabulous yearling colt right now in my pasture cause she will be kicking herself this spring when he is advertised again. And yes, I did offer to negotiate but don't think for a minute I'm letting our babies go that cheap.


This is the big thing that bothers me too. It is fine to ask to negotiate or ask for a discount if they have to ship across the country, etc. But I get so many people out here who think every horse on the place is $300, it drives me crazy. Since we are having a hard time selling colts I offered a lady a colt for her kids to show this summer on a free lease. She came to get him and decided she wanted to purchase a filly instead(we didn't have any for sale at the time) and wanted to pay no more than $500. No way. Also had a VERY nice colt listed for sale and got a lady from Wyoming very interested and said she'd send a down payment, etc. Now I live in North Dakota, but have a friend coming in a month or two from Wyoming and offered to ask her if she might have room coming back. She said she could bring him for $200 since gas prices are supposed to skyrocket soon. The lady responded that $200 was way too much and she wouldn't pay that, especially in this economy. I know my friend would have gone lower, but I was so mind blown by how rude the response was that I told her good luck in her search. I'm still not quite sure how she planned on getting him to Wyoming for anything less than that? I'll keep the colt and bring him to some shows this summer instead, fine by me.


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## bluerogue (Apr 2, 2011)

I'm not a big breeder by any means, nor have I bred every mare I owned every year. Did I start off breeding? Yes. I've been responsible for 10 foals so far. I still have my first born (the only filly). 7 of those 10 foals are still alive. I've made mistakes, and I learned from them. I never wanted to be a big breeder. I wanted to be a _*GOOD*_ breeder.

I wanted to be known for producing pretty, good minded horses, that can be handled by the WHOLE family. So far, I think I've done pretty well with that goal (except for the well known part, which is okay with me). Most of my sales have been to pet homes. But just because their new families chose to keep them as pets doesn't mean they aren't capable of doing more. Just because they are pets doesn't mean I don't have any place being a breeder. I kind of resented when someone said if you produce pets, you shouldn't be breeding. I am proud of the horses I've bred, and I think their families are happy with them, and glad I bred them.

I have nice horses (in my opinion). I don't plan on breeding my girls every year, year after year. Two of them will be trained to drive, so if I decide to never breed again, I'll still have an activity I can do with them (aside from grooming, and going on walks). Something that will allow me to keep spending time with my girls (and not be accused of just keeping them as pets by certain family members). The other two aren't going to be trained to drive. One because she lost an eye in an accident as a young foal, and I don't think it appropriate to drive her, and the other because she's older, and I don't think she'd enjoy it. I don't want my girls to only have worth as baby makers. They are so much more than that to me... they are friends, companions, and pets. The foals they give me are gifts. Every foal born is bred with the idea that that foal might be a keeper.

I didn't breed any mares for this year. I do plan on breeding at least one, and possibly as many as 3, of my mares for next spring. The one foal I am for sure going to breed for is making me jump with excitement. It is going to be a long, hard wait for me until I can meet this baby in person. I am planning on keeping this foal, colt or filly. If it's a filly, it's likely someone is going to need to pass smelling salts under my nose after it's born. I'm due for a filly! This baby will have bloodlines I love, be out of a mare I love, and be sired by a stallion I admire.

I hope that the people who have dealt with me would say that I am a good breeder. I make a sincere effort to be ethical, and completely honest. I am proud of my horses. I am willing to help people find the perfect horse for them, whether it's from me, or someone else. I try to educate people about minis when the opportunity presents itself. I have tried my best to be a good breeder, and I will continue to do so.


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## TPs flat rock acres (Apr 2, 2011)

As I am still learing the lines and who is good and who I should stay away from I must say it has to be similar to dogs and dog breeders. We have some big name kennels. As they have the reputation and can sell their pups for top $$ and alot of times will only look for the top $$ and not consider selling too a good home that might show or do good by thier pup. These same breeders sell tons of puppies each year and have seen some end up in shelters or in the wrong hands. The are memebers of clubs make it look like they are the great breeders but when it comes down to the nitty gritty they don't take puppies back when the owners give them up and they don't think they have any problems with their lines. They are all show quality and have no faults or health problems. I have not learned yet if its like that in the mini world as I am so very new still. I have seen names that seem to be in alot of the minis pedigrees and I am very intrested in those lines as it seems thats what alot of people have but am trying to learn if thats the road to take or not. I like there is a look that I like so I guess my question is how does a newbie find a good line to start with and someone they can trust thats not just looking for how much money they can get for their mare, stallion, colt or filly? It can be a greedy world out their and have to be honest as I would love to have nice lines I am a stay at home mom and to pay $2000.00 and up my hubby said I need my head examined. Then to pay cost for shipping these days its hard to newbies are resorting to buying the basically Mutts of minis. How do the lease programs work.?


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## Minimor (Apr 2, 2011)

TPS - in order to find good horses to start with, without being taken in by a good sales pitch on a lower quality/higher priced horse, you need to know how to judge a horse on its own merits. If you aren't good at judging conformation, find a mentor to help you. Find someone that knows conformation, someone that you trust to be able to pick out a good quality horse and who will help you choose a horse that suits your needs and price range. A good mentor will help you find the right horse, even if it's from another breeder, not just sell you something out of their own herd. And you know, you do not have to put out a huge amount of money to get good quality--these days especially there is a wide range of horses, even some very good quality ones, available for modest prices. You have to look around some, and check out the small breeders as well as some of the big ones. Those with the big name/good reputation (and some with nothing more than illusions of grandeur!) may keep their prices 'up there' but some lesser known farms have lower prices for horses that are still good quality. Keep in mind that you do NOT have to pay a high price to get quality--there are some very overpriced poor quality horses out there. Sometimes a low price does mean low quality, but not always--just as sometimes a high price gets you a good price, and other times that high price just means that you got took badly on a dud of a horse. Do not go strictly on pedigree--you can have a horse with the greatest pedigree in the world and that horse has some very poor conformation....or can't produce anything worthy of the pedigree. Meantime, a horse with a more modest pedigree may be a lovely animal that will give you a quality foal every time. Do not let yourself be taken in by a fancy pedigree, big name prefix or high price.


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## Shortpig (Apr 2, 2011)

I bought three mares, the mother and her two fillies. Those two little black filles were wild, had never been touched by human hands, one was 2yo and one was a 3yo. Had no intentions when I bought them of ever breeding them. Thought never crossed my mind. But and that's a big but I had a friend who was an old cowboy. When he was those three mares he said lets get us a stallion, I will pay for him but you go find one. So I started looking. Found one that was the sweetest little guy and fell instantly in love with him. Hauled him home on July 3rd, 1995. On July 4th we chose a mare and put them together for a week. Each mare spent a week with him and then we were done. One year later we had three fillies one each week. Two of those fillies were sold at 6mos old. The other I kept but sold to a friend at 2yo. I bred one mare back the first year and one filly was born the next year. Over the years I have produced 7 foals. Two from one mare and 5 from the other. I have rescued a few over the years and rehomed them.

In 2005 I bred my mare and said last time. But then last year on June 13th. I bred her once, one more time. She was 18yo and I still can't tell you why I did it. But to keep my group at five I sold one of my foals to the most perfect home she could go to. She was 8yo. So to those of you who say you don't want to take a chance that if your mare takes a couple years off and might not settle again after that. Wow! Six years in between breeding and one time she settled. She is 19yo and has no problems keeping her weight on. She is right now 5 weeks from foaling and looks great. We will keep this foal. I don't care if it's a filly or a colt we will keep it. If it's a colt it will be gelded. Within the last year three of the foals have been in driving training and will have jobs. My stallion and one mare drive. Both are very gentle and very soft on the reins.

I still own those original three horses. I have asked all of them to go get jobs to support themselves. LOL.

Didn't happen. I love my horses. They are a family to me. My daughter plans on showing the new foal next year. In the future it will be trained to drive. I work full time but I can't imagine how a person who creates 20 foals a year has the time to spend with each individual foal to love on it and make it feel special love and trust humans. I will never forget the fear in my girls eyes the first time I walked into the stall with them. They were absolutely terrified that I was going to attack them, butcher them and eat them. I have never created a foal with the intention of selling it for a fortune to support my herd of me.

I don't breed dogs or cats or for that matter pot bellied pigs. I have these animals for my own pleasure. I have also in the past been told I shouldn't be breeding my horses. This by people who breed theirs every year over and over. I found great humor in that.

I suppose having these horses for 16yrs doesn't make me a newbie but I will never say I know everything. No one knows everything. Not to mention there are new ways created each day to handle and train horses. New theories on how to feed them.


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## Songcatcher (Apr 2, 2011)

I think it's a shame that people are made to feel that they must justify their breeding program. Some people portray the attitude that they are the only ones who know anything and if you don't do things the way they say, you are all wrong.






I am all in favor of people being informed and caring for their animals properly. Everyone's situation is different.


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## wingnut (Apr 2, 2011)

> I work full time but I can't imagine how a person who creates 20 foals a year has the time to spend with each individual foal to love on it and make it feel special love and trust humans. I


I don't know about other breeders, but I have visited Marlene and Holly's farm. When we went out to the various fields where her lovelies were, I was surrounded by horses! The babies were the first to come check us out!! They pushed each other around to get their fair share of kisses and hugs and scratches. So, it can be done. Never say never


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## Tab (Apr 2, 2011)

Songcatcher said:


> I think it's a shame that people are made to feel that they must justify their breeding program. Some people portray the attitude that they are the only ones who know anything and if you don't do things the way they say, you are all wrong.


It's just as Bill Cosby said, "A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice."

Many of those that got defensive really had no reason! Are you conscientious? If so, why would you be defensive? No one can _make _ you feel anything without your consent. It wouldn't hurt us (and even less mares) if we all decided to breed half as much.

It's true to say we were all newbies at one time, and oldies still make big mistakes. Horses humble you. But now and never is the time to burst forth into breeding with no prior knowledge of horse ownership, conformation, expense and care just because there is a very, very minuscule possibility of "selling babies."


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## Jean_B (Apr 2, 2011)

OK - I've kept my mouth shut on this topic....but can't any longer.

I fully understand some of those who posted in agreement with the original post.

But GOOD QUALITY miniatures are still selling...for EXCELLENT prices so to tell everyone not to breed rings with just a bit of a 'superior attitude'. The 'junk' horses (I have a much stronger term but since kids read this....) bring what they deserve (oh don't give me all that stuff about how they deserve to be loved....their so-called breeder made a stupid error by breeding junk to junk, and low and behold, they are shocked when they can't get more than a few dollars for the resulting junk). No it's not the fault of the horse they had a dumb owner, so hopefully it will find a good pet home and NEVER NEVER NEVER be part of a breeding program....producing more junk. Yes yes yes......there are no guarantees that you will produce a national champion by crossing two national champions, but the odds are much higher. Heck....there are no guarantees that two Rhodes Scholars won't produce the village idiot either! But if one does their research on bloodlines, looks at the CONSISTENCY of those lines over multiple generations, odds are higher for a good result.

So what is the definition of a good horse?

1. Good conformation, i.e., straight legs, neck set on correctly, good headset, good bite, strong topline, high tailset, long hip, etc etc etc

2. Paperwork TOTALLY in order...no "on application" BS....anyone who buys a horse on application because it's a good price, and then discovers that stud reports were not filed, etc etc etc....well, they sometimes get what they paid for....a grade horse - DUH!

3. Good pedigree with multiple generations of excellent producers and show results

4. Good disposition

5. Healthy

5. All care (vaccinations, farrier, worming, etc.) totally up to date, and RECORDS to back it up

OK - Flame away.


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## Songcatcher (Apr 2, 2011)

Tab said:


> It's just as Bill Cosby said, "A word to the wise ain't necessary - it's the stupid ones that need the advice."
> 
> Many of those that got defensive really had no reason! Are you conscientious? If so, why would you be defensive? No one can _make _ you feel anything without your consent. It wouldn't hurt us (and even less mares) if we all decided to breed half as much.
> 
> It's true to say we were all newbies at one time, and oldies still make big mistakes. Horses humble you. But now and never is the time to burst forth into breeding with no prior knowledge of horse ownership, conformation, expense and care just because there is a very, very minuscule possibility of "selling babies."


Tab, I don't know you personally and was not referring specifically to you, but a general comment. Since I don't know you, I decided to go to your website to get to know a little more about you. Very nice website. It appears to me we probably have some things in common and that you would quite likely be the type of person I would like to have for a neighbor.

I am not at all disagreeing with you on the general concept that there are too many horses being bred. I am not disagreeing that there are a lot of people breeding who have no idea what they are doing and who are producing inferior stock. (That goes for humans as well as horses, but that's another story.) I do think (and hope) that perhaps some comments on here have come across more harsh than they were intended. I agree that some who felt the need to defend their programs had no need to feel that intimidation, but they did. Yes, I am conscientious and I do not feel any need to defend my program. However, I am not as easily intimidated as some people are. That does not mean that I think I have always made the right choice in every case, but it was my choice and I can live with it.

In looking at your website, I see that you have bought some horses, you have sold some horses (I'm assuming that is what you mean by "Placed"), and you have bred some horses and produced some foals. This is a free country (so far) and you have a right to make the decisions to do that, just as others do. You had the opportunity to do that because there were others before you who bred and sold horses and others after you who bought horses. If people don't breed horses, there will soon be none to choose from. If only certain people are allowed to breed, who is to decide who should be allowed to? I do believe that people should exercise their freedom of choice wisely and think things through before jumping into something they know nothing about.

I often agree with Bill Cosby, but not on this one. The wise are the only ones who will listen to a word of advise. The stupid ones won't pay any attention anyway.


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## frostedpineminis (Apr 2, 2011)

I would like to know what is classified as a "backyard" breeder? I get that people think that they are doing the right thing by breeding for themselves or only breeding 2 or 3 a year? If the market is so low, why even take the chance of breeding and producing so called "Junk", why not go out and buy exactly what you like! I think those people are being a little hypocritical. You cant guarantee where every horse is going to end up, you cant forsee moving, death, outgrowing them you just gotta give them the best start and hope everthing works out. You cant criticize people because some of there foals dont live a fairy tale. I think that for the most part there is a high percentage of minis regardless of conformation and pedigree and whatever else that go on to be just regular PETS and from what I see they are still a happy horse. Also for the most part I think people spending 1000 to 2000 dollars on a pet is a pretty good market, in what other market can you sell an animal for that. I agree that you cant really make money at them but I think for the most part people that own them, cherish them. You cant raise cats and dogs and tell me that they all live 15-20 years and are loved to the end, many more of them end up in shelters, euthanized and die of exposure because the run away or are abandoned.

Most people that agree that newbies and "backyard" breeders shouldnt breed, have mares and stallions and have had foals... sold older horses that they didnt want any more... you are the same people that say they find permanent forever homes for all the horse they sell, but maybe that is what people think of the horses they sell to you... that you are forever homes. Who says that the horses you are breeding are so good, people say that every horse has faults, what makes yours so important???


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## [email protected] (Apr 2, 2011)

You go Jean! Love it!


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## champsmom (Apr 2, 2011)

Wow. This topic has really ruffled some feathers. Everyone has an opinion and has a right to post thier opinions. I just think some people should remember the golden rule "do unto others as you would have done unto you" and by this I am mainly referring to the way people talk to each other. By the way, I understand that you mean low quality horse when you say "junk horses" but I have a hard time referring to anything God makes as "JUNK"


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## Charlotte (Apr 2, 2011)

I have read as many of these posts as I can find time for and I feel the need to correct a misconception.

Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.

And doing those things doesn't mean you don't love every little four hooved creature on your farm.

So do your marketing research, plan your breeding program, learn all you can about equine husbandry and GO FOR IT!

Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good.

Charlotte


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 2, 2011)

Had to comment without reading all the replies but I understand your message to this post but think about it did newbies cause this problem? No its been years and years of overbreeding. Not just the backyard breeders but the BIG NAME breeders as well. As some have said some of these big farms can have 50 foals every year but you also see them do anual sales every year. Yes they have quality horses but I guarantee all of them won't be show quality. So why is it fair to say this message to newbies but when they weren't the ones that caused this problem.

In fact IMO the new people that are coming into this business are getting smarter, they know what to buy and they need to be educated that breeding is not all what these minis can do and how great showing can be. We need more people out there showing and/or promoting these minis.


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## kaykay (Apr 2, 2011)

> Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.
> And doing those things doesn't mean you don't love every little four hooved creature on your farm.
> 
> So do your marketing research, plan your breeding program, learn all you can about equine husbandry and GO FOR IT!
> ...


Thank you Charlotte for saying it so much better. That is pretty much what I was trying to say!


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## Genie (Apr 2, 2011)

kaykay said:


> Thank you Charlotte for saying it so much better. That is pretty much what I was trying to say!



Here, here


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## CharlesFamily (Apr 3, 2011)

Charlotte said:


> I have read as many of these posts as I can find time for and I feel the need to correct a misconception.
> 
> Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.
> 
> ...


Charlotte - I totally agree! And I think THAT is the point exactly that people are trying to make! Again - I don't think the majority of the breeders on here should feel defensive - they are doing it right! They do not have to defend their program - they have invested time, money, heart, money, soul and money into their programs. (And I'm not debating that you have to spend 5 figures on a horse before you can breed them - we know there are many "diamonds in the rough" - but we also know that purchase price of a horse is the cheapest expense of all!)

I think I was very blessed growing up and coming from the "big horse" world. My 4-H advisor was a well-known and respected Paint Horse breeder. The stallion he stood was a homebred World Champion in Halter and Peformance that he had trained, shown and campaigned himself. He typically bred less than 5 mares a year and all of his foals were trained appropriate to their age and shown. Naively - I thought this is what EVERYONE who breeds did.

That is what frustrates me the most - apparently MANY people would answer the question, "What can you do with a mini?" by saying, "Breed them!" Because there are too many farms where that is ALL they do. The resulting foals are so wild you can't even get near them. IF you are going to breed, then I feel you need to be actively marketing your horses and that means DO SOMETHING with them. I don't care if it is AMHR/AMHA shows, local shows, 4-H, parades, pet expos, trail driving, walking them in town, therapy work - but running wild in a field and popping out more babies and NOT doing anything else and being so wild they have to be sedated for farrier/vet because those are the only times they are handled, IMO is NOT a job. You can flame me all you want, but this is how I see it.

And many might think my dog isn't in this fight because I don't breed. But I don't breed because I believe in "practice what you preach." I do NOT have the time or money that it takes to do it right. I live 30 minutes from Getitia's farm (the AMHR 2010 breeder of the year); I live an hour from Arlene Foulk and Kay, and many others. If I want a high-quality horse I have a bazillion options to choose from - and they are in a place to do it better than I could. And they have programs that I would totally support because they meet all of the criteria I expect in a breeder.

Stepping off my soapbox now!

Barbara


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## SampleMM (Apr 3, 2011)

_Responsibilty_..............................*The ability to respond.*

We can choose to be part of the solution or we can turn a blind eye and continue to be part of the problem.


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## LaVern (Apr 3, 2011)

"Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good."

Charlotte

That is the best one I have ever seen on LB. The market is good here too, but I am cutting back because I am getting old and slow. I won't breed them if I can't do them justice.


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## Allure Ranch (Apr 3, 2011)

Charlotte said:


> Oh, and it might help your 'business' if you weren't seen on LB complaining about how terrible the market is. From where I sit the market is good.
> 
> Charlotte



_Valid point; I agree wholeheartedly.... and I've been very fortunate myself from where I've been sitting that the market hasn't affected my sale ability either. I placed (38) horses over the last year and ALL of them went to wonderful homes that can provide for them LONG-TERM. _

_ _

_I'm not criticizing ANYONE for not wanting to breed.... However, please don't expect me to following suit. _

_ _

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## Charlotte (Apr 3, 2011)

> Responsibilty..............................The ability to respond.
> We can choose to be part of the solution or we can turn a blind eye and continue to be part of the problem.


EXACTLY SampleMM! Good post!

And what is the solution? Well a huge part of it is providing a use for the little horses that are out there. If they have a use then they will find homes!

If you've been watching closely AMHA is taking a big step in that direction with the advent of the Youth Performance Events (which can be held at someone's farm or a school yard or anyplace fenced and with a little room for parking a few trucks and trailers) and the Community Shows...half day shows which just need the same type of location.

These are AMHA pointed shows and can be held starting 2012 so now is the time to GET PLANNING! If there are no mini events in your area get on Cragi's List or FaceBook or something like that and find a few folks who would like to join you. Call AMHA and ask questions. Or email me and I will try to get the answers for you.

I have heard that there is work in progres on a 'how to' booklet for folks who haven't been involved with putting on any shows before.

The more we can do with our little horses the more good homes they will find!

Charlotte


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## [email protected] (Apr 3, 2011)

I hadn't heard that Charlotte, but that is wonderful. The Community shows and Youth Performance is a great idea. Yeah AMHA.

In all honesty, I do believe the majority of LB members are better educated as far as buying and breeding than the average. And if you're breeding with some sort of plan not just they have the equipment so lets go, that is a start right there.

I do believe every breeder that sells Minis for breeding should have some responsibility towards educating the 'newbies' on breeding too. Promote good practices, educate, geld and be conscientious about your breeding program whether its 1 or 50.


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## Jean_B (Apr 3, 2011)

Charlotte said:


> I have read as many of these posts as I can find time for and I feel the need to correct a misconception.
> 
> Yes, you CAN make money with miniature horses as a business. If you are willing to put your heart and soul into it and work hard at learning the things you need to know. If you are willing to spend the many hours per day it takes to run a successful 'business'. You CAN succeed and you CAN make money.
> 
> ...


EXCELLENT post! Over the years my horses paid many of my non-horse related bills, so now that I'm 'retired' from the business, I'm still treating sterile, arthritic old Vegas like a king because he EARNED it. And yes - those that came on here crying about how they could not move any horses....the sky is falling....etc.....those are places I didn't even bother to look at the horses they had available when I was in the market for something in particular.


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 3, 2011)

Well, i just have to post one more time! Charlotte you are right on girl! The market looks pretty good from where i am sitting too! i have had very little problem selling my foals last year, and i have a waiting list for foals this year too! My mares get the best health care( much better health care than i do) They get fed before i do, thier hooves get manicured before my nails get done, most have hair cuts more regularly than me,( I do take a bath more often than they do!) the horses relax and get to loaf around the pasture all day, every day! Which i never seem to be able to have time to do. I know all thier personalitys, and and can pretty much tell you the sire and dam, age and disposition of all horses on my farm. But that being said, *I DO NOT RUN A FREE LUNCH PROGRAM *



I expect a mare to contibute to the house hold. I enjoy my horses and everything about them, but i do *not* consider them pets. I wanted a pet, so i went out and got a dog, the dog adores me. The horses just think of me as maintanace, house keeping, food server and scratching post. There is one more thing i would like to add, i cant think of anything more beautiful than life, especially new life, and seeing those little babies bouncing around in the fields beside thier grazing mothers seems to make all the sleepless nights on mare stare worth it!


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 4, 2011)

I have held off posting as I did not feel I had much to add.

There is no doubt, in my mind, that the economy (the World economy, this is not a single country problem) is in the kazy and this is definitely affecting horse sales right across the board- every breed has the problem, some breeds are addressing the problem in various ways, some breeds are just sticking their heads firmly in the sand and hoping the problem will go away.

It will not.

It will, actually, get worse.

If those of you who still have a ready market keep a weather eye on the market, and cut your cloth, as it were, according to this market, and can afford to tighten your belts and ride it out (OK, enough of the metaphors




) then you will be OK, I think.

I think the problem is not, and never has been "Newbies" breeding Miniatures, the problem is and always will be _people_ getting into _any_ breed of horse/ dog/ cat _purely_ for financial gain.

Added to that there is the small corner of the market that think they can recoup their money by breeding a foal- would you do that with a pet dog or cat? Well, yes, in some cases some people _would _do that.

I can count on the fingers of one hand the number of people who have, over the years, bought horses _specifically_ as pets, asking for a gelding as they do not wish to breed.

I have had a number of people who do not profess to want to breed but wish only to purchase a filly, some genuine, but most, I have to say, merely trying to drive the price down as they "only want a pet".

Then there are people who want to show, want to breed, etc, and say so openly.

Those I can deal with!

So if you can still sell your horses well, well done you, but do not think that, in a couple of years, the slump will not affect you, as it will, it will affect everyone.

So long as you are ready then you should not suffer too badly.


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## Farina (Apr 4, 2011)

I would like to add something from a different perspective: A friend of mine (no *not* myself) is looking for a AMHA registered mare in the age between 3 and 6. I am more in shetlands but I have seen some adverts for very reasonable priced mares. We have looked at several mares and the most of them are bad quality.

I don't want to put it in general but the more reasonable priced ones lack of quality. If anyone in this forum is willing to sell a world champion winner and constantly blue ribbon reciever in the age between 3 and 6 for 500-1000$ as stated in several posts I would love to be contacted so we could arrange to import these mares to Germany. We would have many buyers on hand wanting to get a quality horse reasonable priced.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I have had a number of people who do not profess to want to breed but wish only to purchase a filly, some genuine, but most, I have to say, merely trying to drive the price down as they "only want a pet".



i have to say that i am one of those people that would ask for a mare/filly specificly for a pet. me and mares just seem to get along better, i've also had better luck with mares than i've had with geldings. my current gelding, Toby, is the first gelding(out of a total of 4 throughout my life) that i have actually gotten along with and will keep.

also, some people dont like the idea of sheath cleaning


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## lil hoofbeats (Apr 4, 2011)

Farina said:


> I don't want to put it in general but the more reasonable priced ones lack of quality. If anyone in this forum is willing to sell a world champion winner and constantly blue ribbon reciever in the age between 3 and 6 for 500-1000$ as stated in several posts I would love to be contacted so we could arrange to import these mares to Germany. We would have many buyers on hand wanting to get a quality horse reasonable priced.


Just because a horse has not been shown, does not mean it is not top quality. I have seen many blue ribbon winners, with professional pictures that make them look like a million bucks, then see them in person, and think Wow! i have alot better horses than that. Pictures can be decieving, i would NEVER buy a horse off professional pictures without seeing just some common shots of it.


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Farina- I bought a National reserve Grand champion halter and national top ten driving stallion for $1000 and he is definitely not lacking quality. There are a lot of awesome deals out there right now. Don't pass up a horse just because of a low price


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Missed the age part of your post though-he is 16 this year so not in the age range you'd want and I doubt he would have been offered at such a low price had he been. He is fantastic though and i'm anxiously awaiting his first foals.


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## valshingle (Apr 4, 2011)

Farina said:


> I would like to add something from a different perspective: A friend of mine (no *not* myself) is looking for a AMHA registered mare in the age between 3 and 6. I am more in shetlands but I have seen some adverts for very reasonable priced mares. We have looked at several mares and the most of them are bad quality.
> 
> I don't want to put it in general but the more reasonable priced ones lack of quality. If anyone in this forum is willing to sell a world champion winner and constantly blue ribbon reciever in the age between 3 and 6 for 500-1000$ as stated in several posts I would love to be contacted so we could arrange to import these mares to Germany. We would have many buyers on hand wanting to get a quality horse reasonable priced.



To sell a mare, or any horse, that has that kind of win record at that price would be to sell it at a substantial loss. I, for one, would much rather hang on to that horse than sell it at a huge loss. $500 to $1000 is not what I consider reasonable. Also, when the price gets that low, the buyer starts wondering "what is wrong with that horse?". If I am going to sell any horse that cheaply, I rather it went to someone locally where I can make sure of the buyer's (and horses) situation.


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## Tab (Apr 12, 2011)

This thread should die, sorry, but the last few posts were wild tangents not even related to the topic. Very frustrated and we're not seeing a future for this breed unless we all start to breed less. Those that are just getting into this breed must be made aware of the current market, and that is another reason to speak to newbies. If you are in fact selling horses, lucky you. You are the exception, and it doesn't mean you will continue to have success. I live in horse country and this is what I am seeing lately around here, "If I'm going to spend money on a horse I'm going to want to ride it." Vet care isn't any less for a mini nor is farriery.

There just seems to be a certain joyous oblivion to the fact that this breed is overrun. Every year I have drop-in visitors who pick out my two best horses and want them for free, or want to buy them for $150, or to buy them without their papers to breed, or to buy them unregistered and register them with an unknown registry to breed, etc. They aren't necessarily newbies either. I don't just sell to people who I don't think would make a good home. Not once did I imply that I am the only one that should breed. I am sticking to my guns by breeding 1/2 less, for me that is none, possibly for the rest of our lives. That is being realistic to the current market.

Wouldn't it be nice to see a little more realism? How many times have you heard, "I have a small herd of 50." Or, "We keep it small, we only have 15 foals a year." 50+ is not a small herd and 10+ foals a year are not a few, and this is what I've heard since becoming involved with this breed. Now I've known a few people who have the acreage and the love is there for their horses, but most of the time they have those sheer numbers because they breed and cannot sell.


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## denny10012 (Apr 12, 2011)

Tab said:


> This thread should die, sorry, but the last few posts were wild tangents not even related to the topic. Very frustrated and we're not seeing a future for this breed unless we all start to breed less. Those that are just getting into this breed must be made aware of the current market, and that is another reason to speak to newbies. If you are in fact selling horses, lucky you. You are the exception, and it doesn't mean you will continue to have success. I live in horse country and this is what I am seeing lately around here, "If I'm going to spend money on a horse I'm going to want to ride it." Vet care isn't any less for a mini nor is farriery.
> 
> There just seems to be a certain joyous oblivion to the fact that this breed is overrun. Every year I have drop-in visitors who pick out my two best horses and want them for free, or want to buy them for $150, or to buy them without their papers to breed, or to buy them unregistered and register them with an unknown registry to breed, etc. They aren't necessarily newbies either. I don't just sell to people who I don't think would make a good home. Not once did I imply that I am the only one that should breed. I am sticking to my guns by breeding 1/2 less, for me that is none, possibly for the rest of our lives. That is being realistic to the current market.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice to see a little more realism? How many times have you heard, "I have a small herd of 50." Or, "We keep it small, we only have 15 foals a year." 50+ is not a small herd and 10+ foals a year are not a few, and this is what I've heard since becoming involved with this breed. Now I've known a few people who have the acreage and the love is there for their horses, but most of the time they have those sheer numbers because they breed and cannot sell.


SO WHAT YOUR SAYING IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREED IN THE PAST AND YOU NOW FEEL ITS NOT QUITE A GOOD IDEA AFTER ALL .....NO ONE ELSE SHOULD DO IT...... WELL MAYBE THE NEW BREEDERS WILL BE A BIT MORE CAREFULL THEN THE OLDER BREEDERS !!!! AND JUST BECAUSE IT DID'NT/ HAS'NT WORKED FOR YOU , DOESNT MEAN IT WONT WORK FOR OTHER PEOPLE...


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## midnight star stables (Apr 12, 2011)

Tab said:


> This thread should die, sorry, but the last few posts were wild tangents not even related to the topic. Very frustrated and we're not seeing a future for this breed unless we all start to breed less. Those that are just getting into this breed must be made aware of the current market, and that is another reason to speak to newbies. If you are in fact selling horses, lucky you. You are the exception, and it doesn't mean you will continue to have success. I live in horse country and this is what I am seeing lately around here, "If I'm going to spend money on a horse I'm going to want to ride it." Vet care isn't any less for a mini nor is farriery.
> 
> There just seems to be a certain joyous oblivion to the fact that this breed is overrun. Every year I have drop-in visitors who pick out my two best horses and want them for free, or want to buy them for $150, or to buy them without their papers to breed, or to buy them unregistered and register them with an unknown registry to breed, etc. They aren't necessarily newbies either. I don't just sell to people who I don't think would make a good home. Not once did I imply that I am the only one that should breed. I am sticking to my guns by breeding 1/2 less, for me that is none, possibly for the rest of our lives. That is being realistic to the current market.
> 
> Wouldn't it be nice to see a little more realism? How many times have you heard, "I have a small herd of 50." Or, "We keep it small, we only have 15 foals a year." 50+ is not a small herd and 10+ foals a year are not a few, and this is what I've heard since becoming involved with this breed. Now I've known a few people who have the acreage and the love is there for their horses, but most of the time they have those sheer numbers because they breed and cannot sell.


Tab, I get what you're saying. I can name ten + farms with a slew of miniatures. I can only think of one big horse farm like that. I think it is all about moderation and responsibility.





But you know... Some of the horses of today are AMAZING when compared to the breeding stock of yesterday... It is those farms that I look forward to seeing their foal each and every year



I guess I'm a hypocrite and 100% an enabler to some exceptional breeders... But I can live live with it when I'm blessed with a some of the horses I have.


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## HGFarm (Apr 12, 2011)

The thread was dying, until it was posted on again today and brought up again for more comment. It has not been posted on since the 4th, so why post again and then say it should die? I dont get it.

I agree, what doesnt work for some may work for others. I am finding that good horses still sell. Maybe not for the ridiculous huge prices they used to, but still for a reasonable price in today's economy.

If folks think they are going to just jump in and breed dozens and make a zillion dollars, they wont, but I dont see the need to completely stop breeding and improving the quality is important.

Many people who are 'newbies' to Minis have had many many years of experience with other breeds and know horses and what good conformation is and know what is important to strive for.


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 12, 2011)

Everyone should just remember is breed for quality not quantity. You can get more money selling one or 2 quality foals over 10 less then average foals any day. Your choices are your responsibility. But everyone has a choice and if they think they can sell 20 plus foals every year and make good money for it good for you, thats great. But people who do that and can't sell them then don't breed for that many or don't breed at all. People have to stop giving away all these horses or its not going to change.

Remeber its not just the minis the business with big horses aren't much better. And if people can raise 50 plus horses good for you, I know I can't and won't judge. Minis are so much smaller then big horses they think they can raise that many and again their choice.


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## Tab (Apr 12, 2011)

denny10012 said:


> SO WHAT YOUR SAYING IS BECAUSE YOU HAVE BREED IN THE PAST AND YOU NOW FEEL ITS NOT QUITE A GOOD IDEA AFTER ALL .....NO ONE ELSE SHOULD DO IT...... WELL MAYBE THE NEW BREEDERS WILL BE A BIT MORE CAREFULL THEN THE OLDER BREEDERS !!!! AND JUST BECAUSE IT DID'NT/ HAS'NT WORKED FOR YOU , DOESNT MEAN IT WONT WORK FOR OTHER PEOPLE...


No that is not what I'm saying at all. I said it would be good for the breed to breed 1/2 less. It's all about supply and demand.


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## [email protected] (Apr 12, 2011)

You know maybe this thread should die, but maybe it needs to be reread many times by all of us.

I still maintain, ALL breeders have a responsibility if they're selling an intact stallion to someone 'new' that is not of sufficient quality, that breeder just added to the problem. The same goes for mares.

I was on a breeders site the other day (in Texas) and her stallion was so gawd-awful, he would have been a wonky gelding. The two I gelded this week (_trying to be responsible_) one is 15 and I'm done breeding him, the other is his son. Great conformation, not the prettiest head, so gelding!

As I mentioned on the IRS thread:

>...... but if they aren't selling or selling for a very low amount, to me that's a stupid way to run a business. I cringe when I see people selling registered (often double registered) Minis for a few hundred dollars.

AMHA - stallion report, DNA test, 4 month foal registration - $71.00 + membership $65 = $136.00

AMHR - 4 month foal registration $20 + membership $65 = $85

So double registered minimum $221

<

As this doesn't take into account supporting that mare and foal until it's sold (feed, farrier, meds, etc.). So, I'm not saying don't breed, but please consider WHAT and WHY you are breeding. Push the geldings, and ALL of us need to really work on getting a strong gelding market out there - like the big breeds - that make owning a gelding the choice for pets, showing, performance, etc.


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## Minimor (Apr 12, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> AMHA - stallion report, DNA test, 4 month foal registration - $71.00 + membership $65 = $136.00
> 
> AMHR - 4 month foal registration $20 + membership $65 = $85
> 
> So double registered minimum $221


Yes, but the way some people look at it....raise 10 foals, and it's cheaper per foal because that membership fee gets divided up amongst the 10 foals. So, if you raise 10 AMHR foals it only costs you $77.50 per foal for your registry fees. For AMHR if you raise 10 foals then it's only $26.50 per foal. Obviously it makes far more sense to raise 10 instead of just one. (And NO! that's not my philosophy!)


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## Eagle (Apr 13, 2011)

I don't know how your market is but I went to take some brood mares to France last autumn and on the way back I drove past a mini farm.(only a 2 hour de-tour, I told hubby I got lost.lol) Anyway they had 2 wonderful foals they were asking € 9000 each. I offered them €15000 for them both and they said no. That doesn't seem bad to me.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 13, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Push the geldings, and ALL of us need to really work on getting a strong gelding market out there - like the big breeds - that make owning a gelding the choice for pets, showing, performance, etc.



....why are mares so looked down upon on this thread? are they just seen as babymakers to everyone???? i've always liked mares best, if i want a pet, show or performance horse the first thing i look at is mares! i've never had a gelding that i actually got along with and kept(besides my current one, Toby) and if i decide to get another mini next year i will probably only look at mares. mares can do so much more than pop out babies and i wish people/breeders would realize this!


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## kaykay (Apr 13, 2011)

Molly I dont think Michelle at all is putting down mares, shes promoting geldings. I always recommend newbies start with a gelding. Especially if they want to show etc. A great gelding is worth their weight in gold. They are easier to play with and show because they are not distracted by raging hormones like a mare or stallion.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 13, 2011)

Eagle said:


> I don't know how your market is but I went to take some brood mares to France last autumn and on the way back I drove past a mini farm.(only a 2 hour de-tour, I told hubby I got lost.lol) Anyway they had 2 wonderful foals they were asking € 9000 each. I offered them €15000 for them both and they said no. That doesn't seem bad to me.



Ah, but there are far LESS Miniatures over there than over here.


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## MBennettp (Apr 13, 2011)

I agree that people need to educate themselves and also take the future of the foals into consideration before breeding but the comment about they shouldn't be bred unless they have a show record, I do not agree with. Some of us have had horses for more than 50 years, have learned conformation, breed standards, etc. and hate showing.

I personally do not show but have good horses. I did breed 2 mares last year to an exceptional stallion that belongs to a friend. These anticipated babies will have a lifetime home with us whether or not they are show quality.

We took into consideration whether or not we have the time and resources to take care of them before we even considered breeding. We also picked a stallion that was a compliment to our mares and the combination should result in outstanding foals. We are not big breeders, in the last 20 years we have had 1 foal and that was from a mare we purchased bred.

The problem is not whether or not anyone should breed but the people that breed everything without taking into consideration whether or not that animal is correct and should be bred. For instance, some of the breeders that breed for color and don't consider conformation at all. I have seen some beautifully marked horses that had horrid conformation but are being bred simply because they are the correct color and the colored foals sell.

I also agree that if everybody would just breed half as many, the market would pick up in a few years but this is true of any breed, look how many registered horses are sold for slaughter in every breed.

When registered minis are going through he local auctions and bringing less than $100 for some of them, there is definitely a problem. My nephew was at a local auction just last week and a former breeder was dumping a bunch of pregnant mares and a couple of stallions. The mares brought $35 each and one of the stallions (who should have been gelded at birth) brought $15 and this person sold every one of them with papers.

I do know who bought them and they will definitely be on the auction block at another auction soon. They only bought them to re-sell. It is sad for the horses that they are treated this way but people need to take responsibility for their animals. We have plans in place if anything were to happen to us, our animals will stay where they are for the rest of their lives and be cared for just as they are now.

Responsibility people, it is a living, breathing, feeling animal that will need care for it's entire life, not like growing crops of grain that has no feelings and will grow without care.


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## Eagle (Apr 13, 2011)

well said. I totally agree MBennettp


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## jegray21 (Apr 13, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> And this goes for all sizes of horse. I've been shocked by some of the ads I've seen on Craigslist recently for full-sized horses.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Craigslist is very sad here..free horses all look so unhealthy..


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## jegray21 (Apr 13, 2011)

Sue_C. said:


> This is a "bit" elitist don't you think? There are a lot of people who show "champion" horses that haven't a clue about good conformation or what it really takes to create a good horse. Believe me, I have spent enough time in the show ring with other breeds to KNOW that "Mr/Mrs Champion" can (and often does) have faults that are covered up and the horses shown "just right" when the Judge is standing there. Also, MOST people here, who go on about only breeding champ to champ, are ONLY talking about the Halter ring...something that is the ruination of many breeds, so don't hand me that garbage that the show horses are the "be all and end all" of ANY breed.
> 
> That said, if one educates themselves on form to function, which is simply conformation, and suitability for the job the horses is expected to do, then there is nothing wrong with their "un-champions" going on to produce horses that can be far superior to many who have championship ribbons.


I agree

from what I have seen some of the halter horses can only do halter, not sure that should be the only goal for breeding miniature horses. I still think minis need stallion testing to get registered as breeding stallions if you want to limit and improve the registry...Friesian horses go through 90 days of testing to get accepted into the sud book, with out passing their babies can not be registered. Just a thought...


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 13, 2011)

kaykay said:


> Molly I dont think Michelle at all is putting down mares, shes promoting geldings. I always recommend newbies start with a gelding. Especially if they want to show etc. A great gelding is worth their weight in gold. They are easier to play with and show because they are not distracted by raging hormones like a mare or stallion.



neither of my mares show any signs of heat at the shows. in my eyes, mares are just as good, if not better, than geldings.

i have never met a gelding that was worth his weight in gold, all the geldings i had were nightmares and nearly ruined me for good on the miniature breed.

The only gelding i have that i can actually get along with is Toby, but i think thats because i was the first person who ever really worked with him instead of leaving him to rot in a feild.

i'd choose a mare over a gelding any day no matter what anybody would recommend.


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## Taylor Richelle (Apr 13, 2011)

Molly said:


> neither of my mares show any signs of heat at the shows. in my eyes, mares are just as good, if not better, than geldings.
> 
> i have never met a gelding that was worth his weight in gold, all the geldings i had were nightmares and nearly ruined me for good on the miniature breed.
> 
> ...


_Everyone is entitled to their own opinion. I have only ever owned one mare and it was a riding horse, she was the sweetest horse ever. She had her moments also. Other then her I have only ever had geldings, 3 riding horses, a welsh pony and 3 minis (ones a stud) They all had/have amazing personalities. My gelding Sox who I bought last March IS worth his weight in gold. I am so blessed to own him and tell him every day. i wouldn't trade him for anything. It all depends on the horse you end up with, you never know what your going to get. I'll own another mare someday, just waiting for that right one to come along! _


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 13, 2011)

Molly said:


> neither of my mares show any signs of heat at the shows. in my eyes, mares are just as good, if not better, than geldings.
> 
> i have never met a gelding that was worth his weight in gold, all the geldings i had were nightmares and nearly ruined me for good on the miniature breed.
> 
> ...


Sorry you feel that way about geldings. All I have is geldings and I love them. I've had more trouble with mares and their attitudes. I wish more people would show mares instead of using them for breeding but we also have to promote geldings, the more people geld their colts then the better quality stallions would be out there.


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## disneyhorse (Apr 13, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> Sorry you feel that way about geldings. All I have is geldings and I love them. I've had more trouble with mares and their attitudes. I wish more people would show mares instead of using them for breeding but we also have to promote geldings, the more people geld their colts then the better quality stallions would be out there.


I agree! Geldings are, for the most part, wonderful guys!!! Molly, I don't know what geldings you've come across, but if you ever have a chance to make it to either AMHA or AMHR Nationals, be sure to check out the Youth days. Particularly the performance classes. You will see a LOT of geldings that are "worth their weight in gold." Especially if you are a parent. It takes a horse worth it's weight in gold to take care of little kids. And there are some LITTLE youngsters out there in the ring, all by themselves, being taken care of by wonderful geldings.

Andrea


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## mydaddysjag (Apr 13, 2011)

I'm from the big horse world, where geldings are the most sought after. After 6 years with minis, it still dumbfounds me that Geldings are frowned upon, or considered worthless pretty much. I'll agree, you can get a naughty gelding, i've seen some who were gelded late who weren't as sweet as some, but for the most part, all the geldings I have were really fun horses who you could just work with, and not have to fight. Ive had more mares than geldings, and although I love mares too, mine were defiantly spunkier than my geldings. What upsets me so much about mares is that they are often retired to the breeding shed by 3 years old, or the breeder bred them with their only intent to be a broodmare. Im one of those people that think every horse should have a purpose other than breeding, be it halter, driving, obstacle, therapy, etc. Three years seems like a very short career to me, but then again, I come from biggies where people ride their horses into their twenties. I quit showing my barrel mare at 19...

As far as stallions, I just dont understand why everyone has one, or heck, even 5. Still in the mindset from biggies I guess, where 1 in every 50 horse owners you know has a stud, and if its a stud, it probably has at least half decent conformation. I'd bed its a lot cheaper to pay a stud fee for a stallion that compliments your mare than the purchase price of 5 different stallions, and the cost of keeping them.

But hey, I dont breed, and I dont own stallions.

The crappy market for geldings keeps GREAT geldings very cheap for people like me.


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## midnight star stables (Apr 13, 2011)

Molly, you shouldn't judge any group as a whole!





I went to school with a mean blond haired, blue eyed kid. Does that mean all blond haired, blue eyed kid are mean??





I have had gelding, mares, colts and stallions. Each individual was just that! An individual.

Many years ago I had the same STRONG opinion you did, only my love was towards stallions. I was blessed with one of the most amazing horses to ever walk this earth and he happened to be a stallion. This stallion's pasture mate was an ill tempered gelding who didn't care for children. Growing up with these two horses, I grew to believe stallions were amazing beings and God's greatest gift and that gelding were just horses not good enough to be a great stallion.......................................................................



:rofl



Has my opinion ever CHANGED!

Since I couldn't show that amazing stallion, I bought another stallion to geld. Nitro was extremely different from my original stallion Midnight. Nitro has become a great assest to our barn. He has a huge heart. He gets along with everyone and shows up a storm in the ring. Also totally different from my first gelding. Hmmm...



I got another boy and he to was very different from all my other boys.

And the same with all my mares. And anyone who know's my mare Joy knows she's very special... Grumpy and mean as could be but she loves to work and she loves me. You should see our liberty classes, they're a hoot. But I'd never hand her over to a youth or true amateur. She likes to act bossy and grumpy even though she is a true love bug. But that's her - Not all mares. Dove and Vision are/were the sweetest, calmest, quietest horses ever. Some horses are worth MORE then their weight in gold!

So I'm when I'm shopping, I'm looking at geldings and mares. I don't need a _stallion_ in my life, just good horses!






So my point is each horse is an individual. You need to find the match for you - not the gender.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 13, 2011)

Molly said:


> neither of my mares show any signs of heat at the shows. in my eyes, mares are just as good, if not better, than geldings.
> 
> i have never met a gelding that was worth his weight in gold, all the geldings i had were nightmares and nearly ruined me for good on the miniature breed.
> 
> ...


Obviously you've never met one of my boys. They, too, ARE worth their weight in gold! Sunny does pretty much anything from pony rides to parades to a Reserve Grand at Nationals in WCP. Dunny is the one to let kids play with and brush- he never moves a muscle.

Plus, I'm getting a new gelding at the end of May (THANKS, PEGGY!!!) and I hope Misty's foal is a colt- so I can GELD it!!


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 13, 2011)

midnight star stables said:


> Molly, you shouldn't judge any group as a whole!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



so far i've never had a gelding match, besides Toby and thats still a maybe. i've had 4 mini geldings throughout my life, all were terrible and one tried to kill me when i was little



so far, i'm pretty much ruined on male horses. maybe, just maybe, Toby will change that with time


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 13, 2011)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> Obviously you've never met one of my boys. They, too, ARE worth their weight in gold! Sunny does pretty much anything from pony rides to parades to a Reserve Grand at Nationals in WCP. Dunny is the one to let kids play with and brush- he never moves a muscle.
> 
> Plus, I'm getting a new gelding at the end of May (THANKS, PEGGY!!!) and I hope Misty's foal is a colt- so I can GELD it!!



well, thats your opinion. my opinion, and personal experiance, has taught me to NEVER turn my back on any male horse whether its gelded or not.


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## bluerogue (Apr 13, 2011)

Molly, everyone is entitled to their own opinion. Your experience has been negative with geldings, so of course your opinion will be negative. Mine has been pretty positive, so I have no problem with geldings. I've gelded a few of my own, but never purchased a gelding. I've had some good experiences with stallions, as well as one absolutely terrible one. The terrible one was a colt I'd bred, and I gelded his butt. He was a totally different horse after he was gelded. He was beautiful, well, bred, and I had hopes of keeping him intact. That changed. He's in a good home now, and has a kid to call his own. He was given to said teen after the young man claimed him from his grandma (who I had sold him to).

Generally speaking, it's a good idea to not turn your back to any horse you don't know. I'm much more careful with stallions than I am with geldings or mares (provided I haven't been warned about a specific horse). But if I don't know the horse, I'm pretty careful to keep an eye on them. It's just being safe.

My current stallion will become a gelding, if he doesn't live up to his potential. He's new, and I'm already rather attached to him (got him on Sunday). But if he doesn't deserve to keep his balls, he won't get to, and I'll geld him. He'll stay with me as a driving gelding then. But if he does live up to his potential, he'll stay a stallion. Either way, he'll be learning to drive, and I'm really excited about him.

You know the saying a good stallion makes a great gelding? Either way, I'll have a good horse! I've been kind of spoiled with stallions, and poor Hollywood has big shoes to fill!


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## MindyLee (Apr 13, 2011)

I have nothing against geldings as they are perfect for someone wanting to get into minis just like mares.

*BUT*

I will say it dose crack me up when I see geldings for sale that any if not a lot of the info about them is nothing but how great their bloodlines are and they have a whos whos pedigree and go on and on about it. I always think to myself "who cares cause its a gelding and you cant breed it for them bloodlines now so big deal!" If I look at geldings the bloodlines are not important anymore really cause they cant breed... BUT confirmation is and thats what should be info'd and its other greats that it has because that is what would matter to me if I was looking at geldings. IMO color would come before pedigree when looking into getting a gelding



But thats my opinion....


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## Carolyn R (Apr 13, 2011)

I have sat on my hands this entire topic, I guess I just have enough of a bug up my butt today that I am just now replying to this post.

The Gelding viewpoint is not whether one chooses a gelding over a mare, but is rather the thought of owners and breeders gelding a mini to show others that "yes, you can do other things with them and I so heartedly believe so that I am willing to act and not just speak about it, and this can be done with no alterior motives of breeding in sight, just producing an excellant all around mini".

I for one have very mixed feelings about this topic. Yes breed less, yes for God's sake breed selectively, and offer proper care for what you have in your care. I also am one to preech that buyers, regardless of looking for pet, show or breeding purposes, need to support reputable, responsible breeders and owners. Do you have to go through a breeder, NO, but but at least go through a responsible owner that has done their very best to learn about and care for the horse while it has been in their care.

This topic is something that should be on someones mind when considering breeding, but as much as I am for this converation, I am also troubled by it. It is a scale of weights and balances to consider. I am not new to minis, but still consider myself a newbie with only going on eight years of experience,but well over 25 years of owning horses under my belt, I am still constantly learning, as we all should be. I have tried to do everything right, keeping the high standards and care in mind, slowly purchasing one horse at a time, researching breeders, owners,bloodlines, the horse itself, conformation and disposition, and the care it has been given. My husband has been gracious enough to support me, help fund projects and I have put a HUGE amount of my own time and effort into things like building a bigger barn, larger turnout and a better program. Self equipped, meaning me, not my husband, not my family, not my friends, me and me alone, equipped with a chainsaws, power tools and accouterments of the sort, and loads of determination. Cutting trees, putting up fencing, laying stallmats, running the kabota, moving dirt and rocks that are the size of my minis and so on.

And still gloom and doom conversations like this, *that are a necessary evil*, make me feel like having a good cry, throwing in the towel, and packing up shop. I can only hope what I have to offer is a step in the right direction and has something to offer as a whole, if it is not, then why bother.

Edited: What drives me....determination, passion and the love of them. "Equine profit" ha, ha, ha, I think I read about that once in a fairy tale".

I appreciate this board, I respect everyones opinions, and as I said, even "gloom and doom" topics like this are a necessary evil, as depressing as it may be.


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## midnight star stables (Apr 13, 2011)

MindyLee said:


> I have nothing against geldings as they are perfect for someone wanting to get into minis just like mares.
> 
> *BUT*
> 
> ...


_*I*_ look at the pedigree on a gelding *just as much* as I would a breeding horse! Some blood lines produce great horses. If I was going to add another horse, especially if for showing purposes, I want to know where he's from and who is in his pedigree! Granted I look at a horse it's self before I give any credit to it's heritage, but I do know that there are certain horses/farms that produce horses I like. I'll usually give a Dun-Haven or Bar Z or Buckeye or Mountain Meadows or LTD horse a second glance just cause they carry that bloodline....... Sure doesn't mean I'll be writing a check!





Bloodlines and horses go much further then breeding



But thats my opinion....


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## MindyLee (Apr 13, 2011)

I do want to comment about how greatful I am that this tread has started.

I consider myself a newbie even tho Ive had minis since 2004. I learn something new everyday and have posted a few coments here BUT I can truely say... that with all the different breeders, buyers, and lurkers here that have made their opninion(s), it dose help me as a small scale breeder to see what folks like yourselves are looking for in a future purchas and how you look at the sellers out ther like myself. It sucks that some take it to heart but it happens. From where I sit here at my computer and follow these type of threads. I personally learn a lot and enjoy reading them and sometimes over and over to make sure I am learning things correctly. To me this a big learning step as a small scale newbie breeder and EVERYONES opinions are much appercited here. I think this has been a great topic and have very much enjoyed reading and particapating in it.

I too strive to breed for the best and think I got some very nice horses here in my herd. I too started out with a crappy confirmation stallion and earlier in posts admitted to breeding for profitt and learned the hard way. BUT I did learn (the key word here...learn) that my boy was poo but he still lives here and love him no less, but breed with way better. If it was'nt for this website (all of it) I sure as the day is long would still be breeding him and think that all is good and still producing bad confirmation foals if it was'nt for such threads like this one and others here on the fourm. Otherwise I found 1/2 my herd from the sales board and greatful for that too as some of you are them breeders of my horses today!


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## Eagle (Apr 13, 2011)

jegray21 said:


> I agree
> 
> from what I have seen some of the halter horses can only do halter, not sure that should be the only goal for breeding miniature horses. I still think minis need stallion testing to get registered as breeding stallions if you want to limit and improve the registry...Friesian horses go through 90 days of testing to get accepted into the sud book, with out passing their babies can not be registered. Just a thought...


Here in Italy to reproduce a stallion you must have a "stallion station" it can be Public where he can cover outside mares or Private for just your mares. To get this "station" the authorities check your premises and check that your stallion has been approved. The first 2 times he gets approved he can only cover for a year and then if he and his offspring pass on the 3rd test he is given life approval.

All breedings are registered. No foal can acquire documents without this registration paper. All horses must(or at least should) be registered.

There are always a few idiots that don't follow the rules and breed anyway but they will never be able to sell an unregistered foal or horse as it is worthless.

It also costs about €300 a year to have a "stallion station"


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## Raine Ranch Minis (Apr 13, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Here in Italy to reproduce a stallion you must have a "stallion station" it can be Public where he can cover outside mares or Private for just your mares. To get this "station" the authorities check your premises and check that your stallion has been approved. The first 2 times he gets approved he can only cover for a year and then if he and his offspring pass on the 3rd test he is given life approval.
> 
> All breedings are registered. No foal can acquire documents without this registration paper. All horses must(or at least should) be registered.
> 
> ...



WOW is all I have to say about that. 



 :shocked


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## MountainMeadows (Apr 13, 2011)

Thanks Desiree - it is nice to know that 30 years of selective breeding does get noticed











Stac


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 13, 2011)

Molly said:


> well, thats your opinion. my opinion, and personal experiance, has taught me to NEVER turn my back on any male horse whether its gelded or not.



Yup, it is, and in 30 YEARS of being in horses I'll take a gelding any day.




Heck, I trust my STALLIONS more walking through their field than our mare field. Those girls are wicked mean to each other and if you get in the way, too bad...


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## RhineStone (Apr 13, 2011)

jegray21 said:


> I agree
> 
> from what I have seen some of the halter horses can only do halter, not sure that should be the only goal for breeding miniature horses. I still think minis need stallion testing to get registered as breeding stallions if you want to limit and improve the registry...Friesian horses go through 90 days of testing to get accepted into the sud book, with out passing their babies can not be registered. Just a thought...





Eagle said:


> Here in Italy to reproduce a stallion you must have a "stallion station" it can be Public where he can cover outside mares or Private for just your mares. To get this "station" the authorities check your premises and check that your stallion has been approved. The first 2 times he gets approved he can only cover for a year and then if he and his offspring pass on the 3rd test he is given life approval.
> 
> All breedings are registered. No foal can acquire documents without this registration paper. All horses must(or at least should) be registered.
> 
> ...


Sounds good to me!



If some people can't figure out that their long backed, downhill, cowhocked stallion isn't a good breeding prospect, maybe the "process" would help them figure it out....


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## Ashley (Apr 13, 2011)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> Yup, it is, and in 30 YEARS of being in horses I'll take a gelding any day.
> 
> 
> 
> Heck, I trust my STALLIONS more walking through their field than our mare field. Those girls are wicked mean to each other and if you get in the way, too bad...



I agree! I have only had one stallion come after me but thats a whole different story. However have been in the middle of several mare fights.


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## Jean_B (Apr 13, 2011)

I was sort of hoping this topic would die, but then it took a new twist...and I'm going to throw some oil on the fire.

The reason geldings are getting a "bad rap" in the miniature world is because MOST of the geldings end up in the hands of people who are just plain DUMB. They want a cheap pet, know absolutely nothing about care and one of the most important things....how a horse THINKS. So they treat it like it's a family dog. They give it treats from their hands....they let their little kids mangle it and then wonder why that nice little CHEAP horse turns ugly and mean. I would bite, too, if I belonged to some of the people who own them.....JMHO.


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## wildoak (Apr 13, 2011)

LOL Jean, you have a point...better they have geldings to learn with than the cute little stud colt, but some of these little guys sure suffer as a result.





I think we have seen the gelding market grow nicely though in the last few years - not where it needs to be but our industry is beginning to recognize the value of geldings. I've thought for a long time that for the breed to survive, we have to promote the gelding & performance horse, and use breeding as a means to an end rather than it being the end goal for most of our horses.

Jan


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## Minimor (Apr 13, 2011)

I am a huge fan of geldings--and a good thing because we are well supplied in them here! We currently have 17 geldings and there will be 4 more as soon as the vet can fit us into his schedule. Then this fall there will be one or two more "new" geldings.

Geldings have more value now than when we got our first Minis nearly 10 years ago, but they are still kind of a throwaway commodity in Miniatures. I still hear people say all too often "I won't geld him because it costs so much and I'll never be able to sell him for enough to make up the extra money." You know what? It's my honest opinion that if a horse isn't worth the price of gelding then he isn't worth raising in the first place! And I believe that is true no matter if it costs you $70 or $300 to geld. But, so many people leave them all intact and then sell those boys for whatever bit of money they can get just to move them off the place--they don't want to pay to geld them, they don't want to keep too many colts around, so they just push them out for whatever nominal amount they can get for them--sell them with or without papers, or praise them up and try to talk someone into buying them as a herdsire prospect...they use that term for one of two reasons--to try and get a little more money for the horse, or simply to try and move that horse on to a new owner as quickly as possible.

The trouble with geldings in many cases is the new owner thinks maybe instead of gelding that cheap colt they'll keep him as a stallion, breed some mares, raise and sell some foals, make some money...but they don't know anything much about horses, nothing at all about stallions, and pretty soon the stallion is pushing them around and has them completely intimidated. Stallion ends up being gelded, but by then the bad habits are ingrained and the gelding doesn't automatically become a sweet, safe, well behaved horse--he still tries to push people around and intimidate them.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 14, 2011)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> Yup, it is, and in 30 YEARS of being in horses I'll take a gelding any day.
> 
> 
> 
> Heck, I trust my STALLIONS more walking through their field than our mare field. Those girls are wicked mean to each other and if you get in the way, too bad...



how long you've been in horses has nothing to do with it. i've had mini geldings jump on me, kick me, chase me out of their pastures and bite me till i bled. neither of my mares have ever even THOUGHT about pulling that crap on me. i'd pass a gelding any day for a good mare





also, i think theres a difference between a mare thats only been a broodmare and a mare thats been around people and been a show animal. they have more respect and a stronger bond with their people, whereas broodmares are more 'herd bound' and could really care less about people because the herd and having foals is their life, therefore they get a bad rep they dont deserve


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## Eagle (Apr 14, 2011)

Molly, I am sorry that you have had a bad experience but I just think you were very unlucky.

My youngest son, Alberto can not go near the girls in the stalls when they are pregnant cos they bite. I trust my 27,5" stallion with my 3 year old 100% he adores my son and totally forgets about the world when Alberto is playing with him. I even have a very funny video somewhere that I will try and post. Alberto sees me putting the big horses on the treadmill every day so he decided that Eagle (stallion) needed to go on too, but he didn't put him on and tie him up he just kept getting on one end and the off the other, this went on for about 10 minutes. At one point Alberto tripped over and ended up under Eagle and he dropped the rope, well eagle just lifted a front leg and waited for him to climb out, using the mane to pull himself up. Believe me, I stood there and cringed as I could see it going all wrong as I had 2 mares tied up near by, Eagle was an angel. I can only image how it would be even easier if he were gelded as I would not have to panic and stand over watching.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 14, 2011)

Molly said:


> how long you've been in horses has nothing to do with it. i've had mini geldings jump on me, kick me, chase me out of their pastures and bite me till i bled. neither of my mares have ever even THOUGHT about pulling that crap on me. i'd pass a gelding any day for a good mare
> 
> also, i think theres a difference between a mare thats only been a broodmare and a mare thats been around people and been a show animal. they have more respect and a stronger bond with their people, whereas broodmares are more 'herd bound' and could really care less about people because the herd and having foals is their life, therefore they get a bad rep they dont deserve


Sure it makes a difference. I've been around hundreds, if not thousands, of horses, big and small, in my lifetime. Statistics don't lie. I've only been nailed by one gelding (and he was a piece of work- Appaloosa 4H horse that kicked me into the trailer as I walked around him at a horse show. It was deliberate, he KNEW I was there), never by a stallion, and many times by mares. *shrugs*

Um, most of my broodmares HAVE been show horses. All of my girls are friendly, personable, easy to catch, love to hang with you, come up for cookies, but it doesn't make one whit of difference when Mare A takes a sudden dislike to Mare B and you just happen to be in the way.

And the one mare who I have NEVER seen argue or kick has only been a broodie since we've owned her (8 years we've had her). And she is NOT low mare in the group. Nor is she boss.


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## kaykay (Apr 14, 2011)

Eagle I love that picture~! How cute is that.



> also, i think theres a difference between a mare thats only been a broodmare and a mare thats been around people and been a show animal. they have more respect and a stronger bond with their people, whereas broodmares are more 'herd bound' and could really care less about people because the herd and having foals is their life, therefore they get a bad rep they dont deserve


I have to disagree. I have many "show mares" that can be a handful to show due to heat cycles. Most of our mares are shown before they are bred. Just the nature of the beast. And once they start having foals they are not just "baby machines" we adore and pamper our mares whether they are foaling or not. Kyles first show pony was Patches. She was 5 and had never been bred. Every show we took her to she immediately came in heat. Its not a lot of fun to try and show a mare that is squatting and winking every time you take her out. I still remember watching her drive and seeing her tail straight up in the air urinating all over the cart. Felt so bad for my friend that was driving her.

There are just different issues with mares.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 14, 2011)

Feild of dreams- to me it doesnt matter how long you've been around horses. and i'm talking about MINI geldings. i've been raised around drafts and have never had any issues with geldings, i've been around 20 or so. never had a problem.

but mini geldings? those things are devils.

first one i got reared on me and kicked me, sold him.

next, got two geldings, father and son, the father was a horrible rearer and kicker. jumped on me and my mom. he once cornered me and kicked me until help came. his son was a horrible biter, he'd bite down and never let go. bloodied up my arm pretty good. sold both of them

the last gelding was starved by some fool who thought a mini could survive on one flake of hay a day. he was a rack of bones. when he got better he turned mean, if you dared enter his stall or pen he'd pin his ears and come at you, fully prepared to do whatever to get you out. saw him kill a chicken that was dumb enough to go into his stall during feeding time. he grabbed it, held it down and kneeled on the poor thing till it died. after he killed the chicken we sold him. some lady wanted him for a teaser pony. i was around 11 when we decided to give up on minis.

when i was 13 i wanted horses back in my life, and i wanted to show but i didnt want to ride. so i figured i'd try minis one more time. got my Misty and havnt looked back. she's never given me problems, very respectful, smart, spirited, everything i want in a horse all rolled up into one mini 32" grulla package





fight with me all you want, but i'll always pick a good mare over a gelding





KayKay, i've never seen that happen at any shows i've gone to and neither of my girls show any signs of heat when we go to shows.


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## Make A Wish Miniatures (Apr 14, 2011)

Mollys run, you sound like you got some terrible geldings,but they are not the norm. I thinkg MOST geldings tend to be very easy to work with and they do not have the hormone problem. You have just been lucky that your mares have not come into heat at the shows you went to. I have two mares that I drive that are wonderful. Another I have trained to drive but she is not safe because of hormonal swings . When she is in heat you can't trust her in the cart. I drive a gelding that is an absolute angel. I also have a stallion that is very well manered both on the ground and driving a cart . On the average geldings are probably the safest horses for people to start with. What it really boils down to is every horse is different, just like people. I am sorry your geldings were so awful,If you ever had a good gelding you would change your mind about geldings in general . When my daughter was a teenager,as soon as a colt was born ,she would say geld him. She loved geldings. You are probably the only person I have ever heard to be so negative about geldings. You just needed a good one.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Apr 14, 2011)

Molly said:


> Feild of dreams- to me it doesnt matter how long you've been around horses. and i'm talking about MINI geldings.
> 
> fight with me all you want, but i'll always pick a good mare over a gelding
> 
> ...


Yup, and what started this _conversation/discussion_ (not "fight"- where did you pick THAT up at?) is that you never met _my_ geldings. My _mini_ geldings.

But that is neither here nor there, your dislike of geldings is exactly like my dislike of Appies- big or small, male or female: once bit, twice shy. Yet others on here can say their appies are sweet and gentle and kind. Still won't make ME buy one!



Yet they love them nonetheless!


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## kaykay (Apr 14, 2011)

Public service announcment: while we are talking about geldings please see my post on the super gelding program. GO GELDINGS


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## Sandee (Apr 14, 2011)

I have to say to Mollys Run that any horse mini or big regardless of sex can become dangerous. It's all in how they are/ have been handled. I have said over and over as it (evidently) can't be said enough, "treat these minis like they are horses - BIG horses!" The real problems start when someone has a mini who roots thru their pockets or rubs against them or rears and they laugh and say, "how cute!" They are HORSES; we are people. Never should they be allowed to "get away" with misbehaving.

Originally I had big horses and my mare, while she was sweet - mostly with me, would test each and every other person to see if she could be boss. My husband did NOT like her.

My stallion is a real lover and has never tried to hurt a human - ever. Even when they have caused him problems like pulling teeth (baby teeth) without sedation.

My mare has my heart because I've raised her from a baby and while she can cause trouble for others, just like my big mare she gives me 110% effort when I ask.

We started in minis with a gelding that had shown but was retired to be a pasture ornament. He was docile until we tried to put the harness, specifically the bit, on him. It actually got to the place where I was physically wrestling with him to get his gear on. It turned out that the people who sold him was using stuff that didn't fit and we, not knowing anything about driving, just accepted it. We decided that he was a trouble maker and if someone hadn't come along and shown us what the problem was we would probably have sold him. When we fixed everything to fit, he became very calm and taught us to drive.

Now if I went by his first impression I'd dislike geldings too. I've discovered that most of the time when a horse misbehaves there is a problem that needs to be fixed. Horses can't tell us. They can only protest until we "get the picture".


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 14, 2011)

Sandee said:


> I have to say to Mollys Run that any horse mini or big regardless of sex can become dangerous. It's all in how they are/ have been handled. I have said over and over as it (evidently) can't be said enough, "treat these minis like they are horses - BIG horses!" The real problems start when someone has a mini who roots thru their pockets or rubs against them or rears and they laugh and say, "how cute!" They are HORSES; we are people. Never should they be allowed to "get away" with misbehaving.
> 
> Originally I had big horses and my mare, while she was sweet - mostly with me, would test each and every other person to see if she could be boss. My husband did NOT like her.
> 
> ...



i highly doubt there was anything wrong with the minis i had, they were just supposed to be pasture ornaments and we tried to treat them like big horses until we just couldnt take the stress anymore. they got whatever care they needed, although they all usually had to be sedated.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 14, 2011)

Molly you are doing it again and I tire of it, I really do.

It does not matter how nice people try to be you insist on being confrontational.

How on earth do you ever expect to learn anything?

Of course it matters how long someone has been handling horses, I cannot see how anything _else_ would matter.

How many Mini geldings have you ever handled? Two?

Three, maybe?

Not enough to make the sweeping statement that you are making, I can tell you.

Maybe when you have been doing this a little longer you will have learned enough to actually listen to what people are saying, in the meantime, please stop fighting with everyone that you can, you may not have noticed that they are not actually fighting with you, but everyone else has.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 14, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Molly you are doing it again and I tire of it, I really do.
> 
> It does not matter how nice people try to be you insist on being confrontational.
> 
> ...



i've handled 5 mini geldings actually, and 4 were terrors, if you read my previous post about them.




are you seriously telling me that i cant say that i hate geldings, even though i've nearly been killed by half of the ones i've had, just because i havent been around horses for 20 yrs?

your post seriously irritates me, if you "tire of it" then why look??? no one if forcing you to look at or respond to my posts. i also dont see what there is to learn here, its a matter of opinion about geldings.

you want to get technical? fine. i've been around horses 17yrs, been caring and working with them for 12yrs. i'm sorry that i'm not 40 and can claim as many years as the rest of you. my apologies.

i'm not trying to fight or be confrontational, i'm giving my opinion and, as usual, no one agrees with it and jumps on me to try and change my opinion over something small.

sometimes i seriously wonder why i came back here. ever since i've come back i've been called an idiot, evil and immature, for reasons i still dont get. whats the point of coming here if i'm just going to get flamed all the time?





also, rabbitsfitz, have you noticed that in my signature it says i have asbergers? i didnt write all that stuff for no reason or to get sympathy votes, its all true unfortunatly(i wish it wasnt, asbergers stinks) and i had no idea that i was being 'confrontational' or 'fighty', honestly i didnt.

except for the ocassional foal announcements from people, i think i am just going to be a silent lurker. i've had enough of getting jumped on and cyber bullied for reasons i dont get.


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## Make A Wish Miniatures (Apr 14, 2011)

Mollys Run,your experience with geldings is a perfect example of what happens when people do not put any training or manners on their minis and sell them to new people or children. The person gets hurt and becomes scared of the horse. If the geldings that you had owned as a young child had been handled correctly before you got them, then things would have worked out differently. It was not the poor horses fault that no one knew how to train them and then they got dumped. While you are lurking ,think about this. I know you have aspergers so maybe you should re -read every thing that you post and see how your remarks come across to other people. No one is fighting with you . Your opinion is that geldings are brats( mini geldings) People just want you to know that you had untrained badly behaved geldings and that is why you don't like geldings. If you had a well trained gelding then you would change your opinion.


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## Jill (Apr 14, 2011)

Honestly, I think that some of the posts here reveal a lot more about a poster's horsemanship abilities and knowledge than about stallions / geldings / mares


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## barnbum (Apr 14, 2011)

Oo, ooo I want to reply!






I've not had many minis, two broodmares--who are wonderful to me, but the lead mare can be a pistol to the others. Every foal has been different, so shy, some in your pocket/lap. I had five fillies first--so had no experience with boys except for my stallion. He required consistent work to keep in line, but manageable if work was several times a week. Then came Tucker, my first colt, and last foal born here. He only wanted to bite once he came out--for days. I worked with him a lot and again, consistently, and that became a non-issue. Now, age 2, Tucker is amazing! When I take him out for a romp in the fields, or we do obstacle work, he's a delight! The lead never goes taunt with my Tucker boy--he's a team player! Oh gosh, I love geldings. And mares.


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## MindyLee (Apr 15, 2011)

Molly you are intitled to your opinion about geldings and mares just like everyone else here.

I do have to say I was sorta on the same page as you when it came to geldings and not liking them. BUT not because they where ever mean BUT because you cant breed with them. And thats where This whole topic kinda fits in from for NEWBIES!!! Well being into horses all my life and minis since 2004, I never would have guessed I would own a gelding EVER. But reciently I did adopt a 30 yr old cushings and severly foundered gelding who now is part of my family. I can say even tho Im not head over feet in love with him like I am with the rest of the herd, and where still getting to learn oneanother, he is a real sweetheart and very loving and will live out his days here. I now look at geldings differently as they are more then just a horse with no use. And I may never own another gelding after my adopted one passes on BUT like you thats just my prefrance.

If you are not a fan of geldings cause they are mean and you had bad experiances with them then thats your choice. I am very happy to hear that you did however find Toby and he worked out for you like my old mini gelding did for me. And hope you do have many happy yrs with him and enjoy him like you beloved mares!

Good luck and take care!


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## [email protected] (Apr 15, 2011)

Wow is all I can say. If a horse kicks, bites or pins you in a corner that's a management issue, not the sex. I've never been flat out attacked by a Mini, but if I was there wouldn't be a second time.

Bad manners are bad manners. Same for no respect. Too many people treat Mini's like they do little dogs and let them get away with behaviors you'd not let a Dobie, Rottie or Great Dane get away.

We were working with a stallion today that had never been clipped and rarely haltered that has been here less than a week. PiA to catch, but he's learning. He did good IMHO considering he really didn't know what we wanted or expected. He did learn his feet coming off the ground was not a good idea and what 'over' means. We clipped another in full hormonal mode, but easy overall and a gelding (another gelded last week) that had never been clipped before that did great. We also worked with our 15 year old stallion, gelded less than a week. Harnessed him and ground drove him - first time in 10 years and did fantastic for being very rusty.

In all these years, I've been bitten by a mare, kicked - usually my fault (tickling a baby's belly gets you kicked) - but never aggressively) by all sexes, and find training is training for all. Some horses are just smarter than others, some take awhile to get it.


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## Blackwater Farm (Apr 15, 2011)

I had the unique opportunity growing up to ride and work with ALOT of different horses. Draft to mule to mini, english, western, saddleseat, mare, gelding, stallion, foal to smooth mouth, and I can honestly say that I think it comes down to a horse is a horse is a horse. When we went to look at horses we didnt look at sex or breed or color, we look at "how can I better this horses life so it can go on to better someone elses". We'd take it home, give it what it needed, be it groceries or training or re-training. There are bad mares, bad stallions and bad geldings. Just like people, it's called stereotyping...you can't dislike a whole group due to a few bad experiances. When you start to do that you might miss out on the horse of a lifetime!


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## chandab (Apr 15, 2011)

Blackwater Farm said:


> There are bad mares, bad stallions and bad geldings. Just like people, it's called stereotyping...you can't dislike a whole group due to a few bad experiances. When you start to do that you might miss out on the horse of a lifetime!


Well said. [The only thing I might change would be "can't" to "shouldn't", but that's just semantics.]


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## JMS Miniatures (Apr 15, 2011)

Yep just bad training period. Its then unfortuantly your responsibility to retrain them to show them that this behavior is unacceptable. Unfortuantly thats what I find lacking is untrained minis and breeders not taking the time to train them as foals.


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## lucky seven (Apr 15, 2011)

molley actually made me smile, the things she described her geldings have done to her, my one and only gelding has done to me and my hubby, he isn't the best for our farrier but we keep trying to train his bad behavior out of him. Everytime I think I have made progress, he does a complete U turn and reverts back to the bad behaviors she described. The only thing he no longer does is rear. He nibbles, plays tug of war with my coat while I'm wearing it, drives us out when we are feeding him and just won't cooperate to be walked. He doesn't do anything willingly that I purchased him to do with me. I talked to a mini breeder about him and she agreed that it is better that we keep him rather than sell him because I couldn't live with myself if he went to a family with children that were hurt by him. He makes a good companion to our older pasture horse, so he still has a value. Meanwhile, I keep hoping...............


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## miniluv777 (Apr 15, 2011)

Thank you for sharing this. I am a "relative newbie" and you can't help but think "how cute" etc. But after a couple years I have come to know what you speak of.

The whole unwanted horse situation is so awful. Breaks your heart. I HOPE and PRAY people heed your message.



Tab said:


> Have any of you experienced difficulty in selling horses lately or ever? My horses have plenty of food so it isn't imperative that I sell even giving our current situation. However, I am noticing that we are having difficulty selling breed-wide. The abuse and neglect cases have also skyrocketed because of this. While it's easy to judge, and some of them deserve to be judged, we have to put ourselves in their shoes. Perhaps they lost their job and have to pay $25 per hoof trimming, $2 per bale of hay, $15 per bag of feed, $50 plus for vet work per horse, $100s in registration fees, etc. and also have to feed their families. Give them away you say? But what if nobody wants them because they cannot afford the associated fees just to own a pet.
> 
> For newbies: you *CANNOT *make money selling horses, not even in the BEST of economies. Expect to keep and be responsible for those adorable babies that you will not sell. Horses can live to be 30. Expect to feed, care for, groom, trim, and vet that adorable baby for up to 30 years.
> 
> ...


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## Helicopter (Apr 16, 2011)

I too must come out in defence of wonderful geldings.

I have 12 geldings and 7 mares and they are all delightful but when I sit out in the padock it is the geldings who arrive first and don't leave. The mares come too but have to hang at the back because the geldings want all the luuuuuve.



:wub


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