# How many of you don't have



## bfogg (Jan 17, 2008)

I can't figure out if I am more scared of the fact there are no well paying jobs or the fact that so many people do not have health insurance.

I am seeing it right in my room every day. Kids sitting here right now who are sick and should be home but parents have to work and no insurance to take them to Doctors.

And seeing as though my room is 7 x15 they are coughing and sneezing all over me.

I feel so bad for them and all the others who are in the same boat. A typical office visit starts at $60.00 and goes up.

I am so thankful to have insurance and worry about losing it everyday.

We seem to have plenty of money to help other countrys but none for the working people here.

I was in the grain store and a 3o something was in a wheel chair trying to work. He had fallen at his house and broke his ankle. He is now $55000.00 in debt with no way to pay it so they are taking his house.

He was in such pain I felt so sorry for him, no money for pain meds and working on it. Someone loaned him a wheel chair so he could set dwn

Heard about a logger who set his own broken leg,with some of his buddies with the aide of some liquor

It just seems to me that there is A LOT of people who don't have it or if they do have it the benefits are not very good.

And what can be done about the loss of jobs and insurance? The politicians are out because the senate is owned by big business and the insurance companies....

Sometimes I feel overwhelmed because there doesn't seem to be any answers to the problems that we are having today.I feel so bad for people who are trying to do things right, work everyday, care for their families and are just going further and further behind every day. Some one said most americans are one paycheck away from being homeless. That is terrible! A broken ankle should not cost 55,000.00 and cost you everything you have.

Bonnie


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## Charlene (Jan 17, 2008)

don't even get me started! luckily, i am able to afford health insurance although it's a stretch. i recently had a premium increase that bumped me up to almost $500/month. i called my agent and he managed to find a similar plan for me that would include coverage on my artificial hips and would lower my premium to a little under $400/month. my deductible is $5,000.

gary was uninsured when he was diagnosed with cancer. since were were never legally married, even though we lived together for 11 years, he was not eligible to be covered under my plan. he applied for, and got, medicaid. i can't kick about how he was treated. every single procedure, doctor appointment, biopsy, chemo drug...you name it...was covered. he was treated with the utmost respect and we were never questioned by a single health care provider as to how the bills were going to be paid.

i have talked to several people over the past couple of years who had very sick children. many of them did have health insurance but the deductibles and co-pays ate them alive.

i don't want to start a war here but in my opinion, as great as this country is, it should be downright ashamed for the way it treats it's citizens as far as health care.


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## Cedar Ridge Farm (Jan 17, 2008)

Bonnie,

I'm with you on this one... I have no insurance on myself right now. I found out last month that I have a brain tumor. Because of the size and location, it is not life threatening. It causes a constant headache and shooting pain. Because it is not life threatening, to have it removed now, would be considered an elective surgery. Which means, I would have to pay the hospital before I could have the surgery done. I am talking over $100,000 just for surgery!! Since my money tree is not growing out in the back yard, there is NOWAY that I can come up with that. In other countries, hospitals and doctors are paid by the government. We need some type of program in the US to help those of us that do not fall beneath the "poverty level" but can not afford medical care. Do any of our presidential candidates have a platform for health???

Peggy


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## Ashley (Jan 17, 2008)

Nope dont have any. The last doctors appointment I had the bill was $173.


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## heart k ranch (Jan 17, 2008)

I have health insurance.... Its 125 dollars a month..


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## Jill (Jan 17, 2008)

I have it and thank goodness. Just my insulin pens and meds look like they'd be $600 or so a month w/o it, not to mention doctors visits, opthomologist vists / laser, and everything else that unfortunately has come along with the diagnosis of diabetes.


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## Shari (Jan 17, 2008)

DS and I have health insurance but it is through the Miltary... Miltary retiree program. They pay worse than Medicare and there is only one Doc in a 1 1/2 hours drive that will take it.

We do not get good care because once the Hospital or what ever, figures out what our insurance pays.. they will do their best to ignore us or tell us that nothing is wrong...even if you have clearly broken bones and so on.

Lots of people do not have good health insurance or none.

Bush closed many of the VA hospitals... all of them full to the gills. To save money he said.. more like to give money to the war and not those that all ready served. Is wrong on so many levels.

My Dad has to go to the VA hospitals...now he has to drive near 3 hours each way to be able to see any Doc. Is stupid.


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## Sandy S. (Jan 17, 2008)

Have insurance, but sometimes paying the deductibles and percentage is hard. I have heard as long as you make a payment even if small on medical bills they have to accept that you are paying and can't turn it over to collections, don't know if true or not. Even a $5 or $10 payment.

My son just broke his hand and probably 2 fingers but doesn't have insurance. Hasn't went to the doctor even yet because he has no way to pay. He is just making it on minimum wage. But he makes enough not to qualify for any help. There needs to be insurance for those in between.


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## Lisa Strass (Jan 17, 2008)

My husband and I are fortunate to have insurance. The premiums are deducted straight from Mike's paycheck, and I can't remember how much they are, but they are somewhere in the neighborhood of $200/month for the family with reasonable deductibles and co-pays.

I worry about my dad though. He and his wife are self-employed and they do have insurance, but their premiums are about $1,000/mo with an $8,000 deductible! That is outrageous, but I'm glad they see the importance of staying covered because you just never know.


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## bfogg (Jan 17, 2008)

cedar_ridge_tx said:


> Bonnie,
> 
> I'm with you on this one... I have no insurance on myself right now. I found out last month that I have a brain tumor. Because of the size and location, it is not life threatening. It causes a constant headache and shooting pain. Because it is not life threatening, to have it removed now, would be considered an elective surgery. Which means, I would have to pay the hospital before I could have the surgery done. I am talking over $100,000 just for surgery!! Since my money tree is not growing out in the back yard, there is NOWAY that I can come up with that. In other countries, hospitals and doctors are paid by the government. We need some type of program in the US to help those of us that do not fall beneath the "poverty level" but can not afford medical care. Do any of our presidential candidates have a platform for health???
> 
> ...


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## JourneysEnd (Jan 17, 2008)

Self employed, can't afford it.


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## mininik (Jan 17, 2008)

Self employed with no insurance, but working on applying for it through WA state.


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## bfogg (Jan 17, 2008)

When you have tn of thousands of people in dire conditions like these I think it will probably take dire consequences to get a problem like this solved.

here is my suggestions.

We vote every single senator and congressman out! Start out fresh with people who have not been,how can I put it, contaminated yet? Now I am sure there are some good people in Washington. But seeing as tho they already have wonderful health care but of course different from what we are allowed to have. Well first of all they get what we get or put another way we get the same as they get.

They do not get separate retirement pensions either. We get what they get or they get the same as we get!

I would volunteer to head this up and see that we all end up on the same ...er ... page.









.


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## mininik (Jan 17, 2008)

Well... I know there are plenty who don't have health insurance who "can't afford it" because they don't try to budget it in. How would one go about separating benefits between those who "can't afford it" because they'd rather have six kids, their hair and nails done, a big fancy home and new car vs. those who can't afford it because they truly can't?


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## wildoak (Jan 17, 2008)

We do have health insurance, but it's private pay and our premiums are now over $1000 a month with a high deductible. I can't shop around because of pre-existing conditions, so I'm stuck with what I have and it keeps going up. I truly feel for those who don't have it though - it's basically catastrophic care ins now, doesn't cover regular drs office visits even.

Bonnie has hit on one of the biggest problems in my mind - our senators/representatives don't labor under the same conditions as the rest of us. They have excellent health care and retirement benefits (which they have thoughtfully voted in for themselves) - not a priority for them. Although I thought Hillary was going to "fix" the health care system years ago, gee wonder what happened there.

I don't know what the answer is, but I don't think government mandated insurance is the solution either. Canadians correct me if I'm wrong, but what I hear from people in countries with guaranteed healthcare is that it's fraught with problems too - long waits to see a doctor, lack of quality care, etc.

Jan


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## h2t99 (Jan 17, 2008)

We are self employed and had insurance until it went up to $1600 a month!!



So we dropped it, then we had coverage from the state for a year but we lost that because we made to much last year!! Even our kids can't get the insurance that is suppose to be guaranteed for all children!! I just paid a bill to the dr's for my daughter when she had strep and that was $150!! Not including medicine!! I buy my prescriptions in Canada and am saving $1000 every 3 months by doing it that way!! I went to the after hours clinic a couple months ago and it cost me $400, I had a migraine that would not go away!!

So health insurance is definately a big deal that needs to be taken care of!!!


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## bfogg (Jan 17, 2008)

I ended up in the emergency room this summer for what turned out to be pneumonia. Waited almost 5 hours to see a Dr and then another 3 to get results.

It was bizarre because i had no symptoms of a cold no runny nose, no coughing, just uncontrollable shaking and a high fever that came on very suddenly. So it was not that i neglected to go when I first got sick.

Funny thing was 5 people (all young) died from the same thing.

I was so lucky or just plain a tough old bird.

But how many are dying in this country for lack of care period. Or from not being able to afford their meds.

My niece had a stroke at 47 we found out she had not been able to buy her diabetic medicines and had not said a word to anyone, she works from 6 o 5 in a daycare center then from 7-11 in convience store.

She is not a slacker.

But when gas and heating oil went out of sight she was in trouble.

I don't know what the answer is but there are lots of smart people on here who would have some answers i bet.





Bonnie


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 17, 2008)

I think we have to ask ourselves just how much government we want in our lives. I can't speak for every state in the Narion but I can speak for what Montana has to offer in health care for those who don't earn enough to pay for health insurance. All kids from low income famiies have available to them, options of receiving services if they are really sick. [Coughs and the sniffles often don't need the services of a doctor and should be taken care of at home .] We have what I think is called CHIPS for children who need heath care. We have clinics for people who pay according to the persons income or no income. We have Medicad for people who can't [or won't work] and then there is Merdicare for those who may have disabilites .

We also have hospitals who will not turn away any person in need of their services......rates for the paying are made high enough to cover this. I do understand that health insurance is getting higer and higher ....we see it everytime we pay ours. I do think we have the responsibility to take care of our own needs. What troubles me is the people who complain about not being able to pay for their health needs but on the other hand they seem to always have money for the non essentials such as new cars, vacations, their expensive pets, etc. In many ways, I believe government has created the mess we are in. When people are led to believe the government should take care of them, many lose the incentative to take care of themselves, which can be very expensive for the rest of the people. I have no problem, what so ever, in helping those who truly need help but I see far too many people assuming the government or someone else should be providing for their needs. Many of us work hard to meet our needs but we also have to work hard to pay for many who believe their way should be paid by someone else. We have several politicians that are running for president who have some plans for health coverage. Everyone needs to look closely at these plans and think seriously about what is best for all the citizens. Having more affordable insurance would certainly be a plus for the hard working people who do want to pay their way. JMHO Mary



bfogg said:


> I can't figure out if I am more scared of the fact there are no well paying jobs or the fact that so many people do not have health insurance.
> 
> I am seeing it right in my room every day. Kids sitting here right now who are sick and should be home but parents have to work and no insurance to take them to Doctors.
> 
> ...


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## wantminimore (Jan 17, 2008)

I haven't read through all of the replies yet but here's mine



. None of us (myself, my BF and our 2 kids don't have any insurance. Our son has ADHD and needs to see the Dr. every 3 months and instead of her charging $70 per visit she drops it to $60. He need medication every month and that costs $150.

We need to find some kind of insurance!!

Leslie

Self-employed here too.


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## bfogg (Jan 17, 2008)

I ended up in the emergency room this summer for what turned out to be pneumonia. Waited almost 5 hours to see a Dr and then another 3 to get results.

It was bizarre because i had no symptoms of a cold no runny nose, no coughing, just uncontrollable shaking and a high fever that came on very suddenly. So it was not that i neglected to go when I first got sick.

Funny thing was 5 people (all young) died from the same thing.

I was so lucky or just plain a tough old bird.

But how many are dying in this country for lack of care period. Or from not being able to afford their meds.

My niece had a stroke at 47 we found out she had not been able to buy her diabetic medicines and had not said a word to anyone, she works from 6 o 5 in a daycare center then from 7-11 in convience store.

She is not a slacker.

But when gas and heating oil went out of sight she was in trouble.

I don't know what the answer is but there are lots of smart people on here who would have some answers i bet.





Bonnie


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 17, 2008)

Not sure if I should muddle into this conversation or not as I have very strong points of view about this. First I am Canadian so we have universal medical here and I wouldn't want any other way. We pay higher taxes in this country than in the U.S. BUT it's worth it when I read what I am reading here. The waiting times at emergency depend on the amount of people and what your emergency is. A TRUE emergency is looked after IMMEDIATELY, there is no wait. If you are going in with a cough and perhaps strepthroat because it's after your doctor's office hours or the clinic you usually go to is closed, yes you will have to wait by priority. As far as getting less quality care, that is not true and not sure where that perception is coming from. Perhaps in the U.S. the ones with most $$ are the ones that get looked after quicker? I am just asking but that seems to be our perception here, for those of us that do not reside in the U.S. and that is where I have a BIG problem. To me, if you don't have your health you have nothing in this world. Health is a basic in life and not something you should have to pay exhorbitant costs out of your own pocket with the amount of taxes we all pay in all countries. You say you don't want government to have control... but what I see is that your insurance companies are the ones that have CONTROL, you don't and the insurance companies are FAR WORSE then having your government offer medical to all, no matter what your income is, whether you are rich or poor, whether you are a senior or a child..... When I look at what some of you pay monthly for coverage you probably pay more in the longrun then we do in taxes that go towards are universal medical coverage in Canada. There are no perfect programs out there but I am glad we have ours and wouldn't want the system that you have for anything in the world. I have empathy for those in your country that can't afford the medications they need. Why are your prescriptions so much higher than ours? Why are the pharmaceuticals basically denying people their health?

I watched the documentary "Sicko" by Michael Moore and I agree that some of it is over the top BUT the botton line I agree with. I am not sure what the solution is for the U.S. but, I may ruffle some feathers here by saying this, but I have asked myself many times, for a country that has so much, gives to other countries, spends alot of $$ on other things (wars, etc)... I just don't understand that "their own seem to comes last" when it comes to help. I understand that everyone should look after their own needs, as someone said here but sometimes people need help, whether it's health, whether a catastrophic storm like in New Orleans, that is still going on..... I just don't get that mentality. The U.S. is one of the most generous countries when it comes to other countries, why are they turning their back on their own, the people that made your country great?


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## Jill (Jan 17, 2008)

Something needs to be done. I don't know "what" but I am very much NOT in favor of socialized medicine in this Nation. But, there's got to be a better solution than what we currently have going on.


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## bfogg (Jan 17, 2008)

Danielle_E. said:


> Not sure if I should muddle into this conversation or not as I have very strong points of view about this. First I am Canadian so we have universal medical here and I wouldn't want any other way. We pay higher taxes in this country than in the U.S. BUT it's worth it when I read what I am reading here. The waiting times at emergency depend on the amount of people and what your emergency is. A TRUE emergency is looked after IMMEDIATELY, there is no wait. If you are going in with a cough and perhaps strepthroat because it's after your doctor's office hours or the clinic you usually go to is closed, yes you will have to wait by priority. As far as getting less quality care, that is not true and not sure where that perception is coming from. Perhaps in the U.S. the ones with most $$ are the ones that get looked after quicker? I am just asking but that seems to be our perception here, for those of us that do not reside in the U.S. and that is where I have a BIG problem. To me, if you don't have your health you have nothing in this world. Health is a basic in life and not something you should have to pay exhorbitant costs out of your own pocket with the amount of taxes we all pay in all countries. You say you don't want government to have control... but what I see is that your insurance companies are the ones that have CONTROL, you don't and the insurance companies are FAR WORSE then having your government offer medical to all, no matter what your income is, whether you are rich or poor, whether you are a senior or a child..... When I look at what some of you pay monthly for coverage you probably pay more in the longrun then we do in taxes that go towards are universal medical coverage in Canada. There are no perfect programs out there but I am glad we have ours and wouldn't want the system that you have for anything in the world. I have empathy for those in your country that can't afford the medications they need. Why are your prescriptions so much higher than ours? Why are the pharmaceuticals basically denying people their health?
> 
> I watched the documentary "Sicko" by Michael Moore and I agree that some of it is over the top BUT the botton line I agree with. I am not sure what the solution is for the U.S. but, I may ruffle some feathers here by saying this, but I have asked myself many times, for a country that has so much, gives to other countries, spends alot of $$ on other things (wars, etc)... I just don't understand that "their own seem to comes last" when it comes to help. I understand that everyone should look after their own needs, as someone said here but sometimes people need help, whether it's health, whether a catastrophic storm like in New Orleans, that is still going on..... I just don't get that mentality. The U.S. is one of the most generous countries when it comes to other countries, why are they turning their back on their own, the people that made your country great?



















Wow I could not have said it better myself!





Bonnie


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## Pepipony (Jan 17, 2008)

Our insurance is broken in this Country. Rediculous that the companies get to decide if they want to cover your problem or not, not the Drs. If you have insurance, you should be covered.

Next, I think it rediculous that people say that a national health care plan is socialized. Yet, I get to pay for the education of others kids, when I dont have any and never will. How is one socialized and wrong, but they other right? OH!


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## Jill (Jan 17, 2008)

I watched John Stossel's interview with Michael Moore and the 20/20 episode entitled "Sick In America". Michael Moore is, among other things, a propagandist. Stossel's points rang so true to my ears. You can see the program here, which addresses our health care system, the Canadian one, and those of other countries:

*"Sick In America" on YouTube*

VERY worth a watch and a listen!


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 17, 2008)

There seems to be such a stigma attached to the words "socialized" in the U.S., speaking of medicine. Can I ask you to explain, those of you who are so against "universal" medical care, why? Do you feel it's better that the insurance companies are the ones that make the decision whether your claim is accepted or not?


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## heart k ranch (Jan 17, 2008)

I guess this might be deleted but I hope this doesn't turn into a Canadian and American bashing thread again!


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## Fred (Jan 17, 2008)

Bonnie this state has only a couple of carriers. Thats why we have had a LOT of doctors close their practice and it is harder to get insurance in NH than most other states. The doctors have to provide health care for ther employees but can't afford the insurance for themselves I was in the health care field in this state for quite a few years so I do understand the system here. We had catastrophic insurance which is $5,000-$10,000 deductable and its was STILL over $800 a month for being self-employed with really no benefits. We had to drop it as they were going to increase it 45%! Most other states have some available help but the only thing NH has is Healthy Kids if you qualify. As of right now we can't afford the cost of health insurance in this state and the scary thing is with this election coming up if they adopt what Massachusetts has we are in for real trouble. If you live in Massachusetts you are REQUIRED to have health insurance. You will be fined if you don't, but the amazing thing is the fine is cheaper than the health insurance. Hmmn how does that work. I am all for promoting savings for health. It would help solve some problems not all. I can tell you it was over $1000 for the 15 stitches in Courtney's leg at the ER a couple of months ago and my drs appointment was over $200.


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 17, 2008)

heart k ranch said:


> I guess this might be deleted but I hope this doesn't turn into a Canadian and American bashing thread again!


I am sorry but I don't see anyone here bashing anyone. What I do see is concerned people discussing and trying to understand everyones point of view and I hope you are okay with that?

Thanks for the link to the you tube 20/20 tapes. Some very good points of view are being brought up by both sides and I smiled when they had the clip about Morewood in Canada. Morewood is a very small community not far from Russell, Ontario, where I use to live. Morewood and other very small communities are in the same quandry. They are towns that were very small and close to Ottawa and have seen an influx of new homes and people moving outside of the city of Ottawa. What has not happened is more doctors moving to these small communities so basically in Morewood you have the 1 community doctor, not unlike small towns in the U.S. Like many other people in Canada and the U.S., if you live in small towns you may have to drive an hour to a doctor in the city, that is nothing abnormal but it seems to be portrayed as the norm in Canada which made me smile when I saw the clip. I also thought that the clip about insurance for food, and other things were a little far fetched. I am afraid that I take "health" as something that is one of the most important things in life, not like a car or deciding whether you are going to eat hamburger versus filet mignon. Not having food at all of course would be a problem, just like not having any health care would be a problem. Both are fundamentals of life. I don't consider "cosmetic surgery" a necessity in life unless it is for reconstructive surgery because of illness or accident (burns, etc). It seems that it all boils down to money and the amount. It takes me back to my first post on this thread.


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## Izzyantheminis (Jan 17, 2008)

No insurance for me either.Something is definately wrong with my body.There are days were I think it would just be easier to just curl up and die because I'm so worn down from being constantly sick and in pain.

Some people think only lazy people go without proper health care.They think they are all set because they work hard and therefore have insurance.Just wait until the greedy insurance companies screw them or someone they love over.





This country would be much stronger if it's citizens were all able to keep healthy and not be sinking in financial ruin from impossible medical bills.At the very least we would be able to keep up with the countries that actually do care for all of their citizens. Seems like a basic human right to me.


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## heart k ranch (Jan 17, 2008)

Danielle_E. said:


> heart k ranch said:
> 
> 
> > I guess this might be deleted but I hope this doesn't turn into a Canadian and American bashing thread again!
> ...


Of course I don't care if we start talking about it. I didn't say anyone was bashing anyone (yet), but I don't want to see it turn into one. Thats all I'm trying to say.


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## SweetOpal (Jan 17, 2008)

Well I am going to say, we live in the big ole fancy house, have LOTS of ponies, drive big fancy cars, shoot I even got me a big ole 42 foot living quarter trailer last year, hubby has harley and race car just for fun . And we pay $ 1,000 a month for our health coverage......do I think that is reasonable, heck no! I don't think anyone should have to pay this much money for health coverage. I especially hate it when I hear people with thier sacrafice, sacrafice, sacrafice junk!!!! I mean really what is there to live for if all we have are Death and Taxes! We also pay yearly in taxes what most people make, we pay $12,000 a year in property taxes. I think I have sacraficed and deserve to be able to have nice things, and not have to hear the good ole lecture about sacrafice.....for what becuase we go to the doctor once a year. And don't even get me started about deductibles and co-pays....I truly beleive that everyone should be able to have affordable health care coverage, and I also would much rather my taxes went to give everyone health insurance rather than welfare!!! JMO

Edited to add: I think another thing that people are not realizing is, while ones business is growing, many are the last of the dying breed! so to speak. We are going into a recession. What someone was able to afford 5 years ago, is now a thing of the past, and for others they are fine and then there are people who are doing much better now than 5 years ago. But I can testify that all of my expenses have tripled in the past 5 years, and there is no way I can be the only one this has happened to in the country. I think this is what is really hurting people, I don't know how to fix it, but with the drop in the housing prices and the rise of everything else, it really is a negative experience for most. It may look like to someone that they have made all these poor choices and not sacrificed, however they may have had thier stuff when the economy was booming and it sure as heck isn't now, definately in the 3 business's we own it isn't booming. So we try and hold on to what we have hoping that one day we will be able to get back to normal, and low and behold we have to give up things, and really it is an easy to choice to give up health coverage at $1,000+ a month in order to keep your car to go to work, or pay your electric so you have food and a place to live. just my take


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## justanothercowgirl (Jan 17, 2008)

I am a Canadian as well who has greatly benefited from our government healthcare system. The two surgeries that I had in 2002, one in a local hospital and then one two weeks later in a major cancer clinic would have been enough to bankrupt us.



Of course our system is FAR from perfect, the wait times for surgeries, diagnostics and non-life threatening emergencies can be long. Many of our hospitals have closed and often our emergency rooms are put on critical care bypass due to overcrowding. There are no easy solutions to these problems either. Our government does not cover medications or dental care, for those you do need private insurance if you aren't covered through your job. I take expensive migraine medications that I pay for out of pocket and we pay out own dental.

I have seen many of Michael Moore's movies and while he is thought provoking I have to agree with Jill, he is a master propaganist! He is VERY good at showing you ONE side of a story. If he chose to he could probably argue the other side of the story just as well.





When I was living in the US I did have health insurance through my employer and was thankful that I did!!



I know there are no easy answers when it comes to health insurance but it breaks my heart to hear stories of people in the US not getting the health care that they need.





Pam


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 17, 2008)

I too am not for socialized medicine even though we already have it here in the US, for a large number of people, as I pointed out in a earlier post. What I would like to see is a lowering of taxes so we have more of what we earn to put towards the necessities. I don't want everything taken away from me and then have the government give me back what they think I need. There is pride in taking care of oneself and it can be done if what we work for isn't taken away by the government. Most of us understand that we have extremely high medical costs but do we understand why these costs are getting higher everyday? Are the insurance companies gouging us or are medical services getting so high that Insurance companiesw have to raise their rates to keep in business? Why does it cost us more and more EACH time we see a doctor? Are the doctors and hospitals gouging us or do they have ever more increasing costs so they have to raise the costs of their services? Even now there are doctors who don't like taking peoplewho are on Medicare because there is so much paperwork and Medicare will not always pay what the doctors charge. Will this be any better if we have only government covered health care? The US government has not shown to do a better job than private sectors of business ....even our education system is suffering because our government has been in charge of them. I have no doubts that something needs to be done with our health system but I have plenty of doubt that putting our health in the hands of the government is the right thing to do. There is so much that Americans need to do to have better health for themselves. Prevention of illnesses need be taught and practiced. Just some thoughts, Mary


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## Riverdance (Jan 17, 2008)

I have no insurance right now and have not had it for several years. Nor have I seen a doctor in several years. After my divorse I was able to continue coverage under my husbands insurance for a few more years, but that ran out. I have been turned away from all insurance companies because I have had shoulder surgery and have a total shoulder joint replacement. They do not want to insure me. I can go on state insurance, but that is $600 a month for just me with a $4000 deductable. I just do not have that kind of money right now. I am self employed (a Realtor) and that is why I am having trouble. The Real Estate Market is so bad, that there is just about no income right now either To get a regular job at my age, would be a minimum wage job just to get insurance, then I would not be able to afford to pay any of my other bills. I can only hope that I stay healthy till I am old enough for Medicare.

What is wrong with our country when its citizens can not afford health care coverage and may loose everything they own?


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 17, 2008)

Buckskin gal said:


> I too am not for socialized medicine even though we already have it here in the US, for a large number of people, as I pointed out in a earlier post. What I would like to see is a lowering of taxes so we have more of what we earn to put towards the necessities. I don't want everything taken away from me and then have the government give me back what they think I need. There is pride in taking care of oneself and it can be done if what we work for isn't taken away by the government. Most of us understand that we have extremely high medical costs but do we understand why these costs are getting higher everyday? Are the insurance companies gouging us or are medical services getting so high that Insurance companiesw have to raise their rates to keep in business? Why does it cost us more and more EACH time we see a doctor? Are the doctors and hospitals gouging us or do they have ever more increasing costs so they have to raise the costs of their services? Even now there are doctors who don't like taking peoplewho are on Medicare because there is so much paperwork and Medicare will not always pay what the doctors charge. Will this be any better if we have only government covered health care? The US government has not shown to do a better job than private sectors of business ....even our education system is suffering because our government has been in charge of them. I have no doubts that something needs to be done with our health system but I have plenty of doubt that putting our health in the hands of the government is the right thing to do. There is so much that Americans need to do to have better health for themselves. Prevention of illnesses need be taught and practiced. Just some thoughts, Mary


I agree with alot that you have said with the exception of "prevention of illnesses need to be taught". Yes of course some can be taught, but tell that to the woman in the 20/20 episode linked here in one of the messages how to prevent breast cancer. Some things can be prevented, other things unfortunately aren't so black and white.


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## Elsa (Jan 17, 2008)

I feel very fortunate to have health, dental and vision insurance. I am covered by my work with a $200 deductible and have Tricare as my secondary insurance through my parents. I can't imagine not having health insurance, and the stress those who don't have it must endure. My family is the type who will go to the doctor for the smallest ailment


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 17, 2008)

Of course I didn't mean that ALL illnesses can be prevented......I know for myself as a fact. I was speaking of proper diet to prevent such things as some diabetes and overweight. Getting a good amount of excercise for the heart and muscles. Not smoking etc. There will probably always be illnesses we can't prevent but many can be and that is what I meant on the prevention education.







Danielle_E. said:


> Buckskin gal said:
> 
> 
> > I too am not for socialized medicine even though we already have it here in the US, for a large number of people, as I pointed out in a earlier post. What I would like to see is a lowering of taxes so we have more of what we earn to put towards the necessities. I don't want everything taken away from me and then have the government give me back what they think I need. There is pride in taking care of oneself and it can be done if what we work for isn't taken away by the government. Most of us understand that we have extremely high medical costs but do we understand why these costs are getting higher everyday? Are the insurance companies gouging us or are medical services getting so high that Insurance companiesw have to raise their rates to keep in business? Why does it cost us more and more EACH time we see a doctor? Are the doctors and hospitals gouging us or do they have ever more increasing costs so they have to raise the costs of their services? Even now there are doctors who don't like taking peoplewho are on Medicare because there is so much paperwork and Medicare will not always pay what the doctors charge. Will this be any better if we have only government covered health care? The US government has not shown to do a better job than private sectors of business ....even our education system is suffering because our government has been in charge of them. I have no doubts that something needs to be done with our health system but I have plenty of doubt that putting our health in the hands of the government is the right thing to do. There is so much that Americans need to do to have better health for themselves. Prevention of illnesses need be taught and practiced. Just some thoughts, Mary
> ...


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## horsefeather (Jan 17, 2008)

I have insurance because I'm afraid not to. I 'thought' my payment was high, but after reading this thread, I realize I'm sorta lucky. I pay $219 per month with a $5,000 deductible. I am in that 'time zone' after retiring. I'm not 65 yet, so must have insurance. Even with Medicare, a person really needs a secondary insurance. It amazes when my husband gets a statement from Medicare. For example, the Dr. charges, say $450 for something and Medicare only allows $150 payment. So I guess the Drs. charge a higher fee for Medicare patients because they know they'll only get a minimal payment back??

Something no one has mentioned yet as reasons the insurance has gotten so high. IMO, the people who sue at the drop of a hat are a major problem. The Drs. must continually raise their insurance in case they are sued. As far as the Presidential race, no one person can do squat. I'm like Bonnie, I personally would like to see all Congress and Senate replaced!



They have NO clue how a 'normal' person lives.



They have SO many priviledges. At least I would like to see a term limit for both houses. Break that darn seniority and perhaps someone could get something done! JMO. It no longer is a duable thing for the 'common' person to get into politics. You have to be rich to even sign up.

I also agree that this rich country should be ashamed. Billions upon billions go to other countries and those of us who are helping make those billions get very little help from it. However, I just can't figure how to change things. I do vote, but usually vote against someone rather than for someone. Where are our heros!!!!!

Pam


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## Sue S (Jan 17, 2008)

I agree with Charlene and the rest of you, we have insurance through my hubbys work but the way the jobs are now you don't know if he will have work or not, If we lost our insurance I would have to let my self die, my meds are whats keeping me alive, I take 28 pills aday for my transplants, it makes me so mad that we can help out other countries but the people here can't be helped. I feel so sorry for the families with little kids that don't have insurance. I think this summer we will have to sell are big horses, right now we are just getting by buying hay for all of them and grain. My horses come first, they depend on us. I put out 500.00 dollors a month for meds and thats not counting what the insurance pays in.


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## MyBarakah (Jan 17, 2008)

I have NO health insurance threw where I work......arh! But I have independent insurance which is almost $140/mo I had some health problems this summer with my thyroid and had 2 scans, a ultra sound & biopsy..... and I'm "just" getting those bills back...... OUCH......... Those are in the thousands!! So needless to say the insurance I have not doesn't cover much!


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## capall beag (Jan 17, 2008)

I just got it after about 6 months of not having any....phew! I must say I feel so relieved to have it.

It is $885 a month for the family, health, dental and vision BUT it is not full coverage. Doesn't cover 100% of everything only unexpected expenses not routine care, except dental.

Hubby is self employed and this is the best we can do for now.

Full coverage would be $1600 ++

Honestly, I am happy to just have it. I am not going to dwell on the cost because in the good ole US of A you need it





In Ireland, little tiny Ireland there is statewide free health insurance. Hard to figure how they can afford it but not here. That said the care here is excellent. You may wait all day and even all night to be seen in the emergency room in Dubln. But it is free


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## Cathy_H (Jan 17, 2008)

Shari, Lee & I also have military retired insurance ( Tri Care Standard ) & we don't have the problems that you do. We get good care & have access to lots of doctors in the Louisville area. Lee's eye surgeries last year totaled around $40,000 & I think we paid out of pocket about $2900............. We are within 30 minutes to a VA hospital which Lee uses but we are in the process of looking for a family doctor because I am concerned that Lee may not be getting the quality of care that he should there.................................................. I feel for those people that don't have insurance but the thinking that the government should provide this to everyone - how can we afford that - higher taxes??? Seems some people want the government to provide for them when it comes to paying for something but when the government wants to institute a program to assign tracking numbers to our animals they get in an uproar ( not saying I am for this - just using it as an example).


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## Shari (Jan 17, 2008)

mininik said:


> Well... I know there are plenty who don't have health insurance who "can't afford it" because they don't try to budget it in. How would one go about separating benefits between those who "can't afford it" because they'd rather have six kids, their hair and nails done, a big fancy home and new car vs. those who can't afford it because they truly can't?


A lot of people are like us. If I got insurance for my DS and I... would cost $1,200.00 a month. With hubby's pay check,, no way we could afford it.

We do not go out to eat that often, have one child, I have never gotten my nails done and hubby cuts my hair.

We have the Usual mortgage (Cheaper than rent), all the house and car insurance we need to protect ourselves, proptery tax which is extremely high here, basic food, nothing fancy.

Have a whopping big payment to pay off in 15 years.. from my car accident over 7 years ago now. Medical wasn't covered and I have to pay for it. But even if that is gone...is a 1/4 of what we would have to pay for health insurance.

Hubby drives an 2000 Toyota Echo.. over 250,000 miles on it.. been paid off for years..excellent gas mileage for even how old it is. To save on wear and tear during the summer he rides his cheap motorcycle to work.

Only thing new is my Van... we could not find one set up to allow me to ride in a car, used.. after last years riding accident. But again.. the payments are only a 1/4 of what the month health insurance would be.

Horses have been paid off for years..do not cost me any thing to feed at this point..just the usual worming and hoof trims.

Badly need a new and safer mini shed and hen house, but we do not have those yet. Same with better fencing to keep them more safe from the predator problem.

I find most people that do not have good insurance.. like our miltary medical or no insurance ..just like us.

There is no way to budget the monthly insurance costs in. Short of living in section 8 housing or in a cardboard box under a freeway.

Yes.. I will grant you ..there are free loaders in the system.... but that is for another thread.

Added:

Cathy.. the miltary insurance.. depends on where in the country you live.. which state, which county, which town and so on. You can check through them... there is only 1 premiry care Doc within the time fo drive I have posted before that will take our insurance in this area. When you are not able to drive 1 1/2 hours one way to find another Doc.. you only have the one choice.

I have lived all over the US. Some places are better than others... in this area... is a Black hole.

Even If I spent the 2 hours to get up to the Airforce base... they will not see Retiree's dependents because of this War...they Farm us out and the results are not good. Lucky if you can get an appointment in 6 months time. I know personally... Been there done that.

You are very lucky.


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## Jill (Jan 17, 2008)

Danielle_E. said:


> There seems to be such a stigma attached to the words "socialized" in the U.S., speaking of medicine. Can I ask you to explain, those of you who are so against "universal" medical care, why? Do you feel it's better that the insurance companies are the ones that make the decision whether your claim is accepted or not?


I feel that the ability to earn an outstanding living attracts a higher caliber of person to the profession of doctor, which is an unbelievably tough field. I want my doctors to be paid and paid very well. I know that most major medical advancements came from countries where there are huge financial gains at stake. If there were not a lot of money to be made, we would not have the important, life saving / changing medications we do no and we know this because they're not coming out of countries where there is socialized medicine.

Really, if others want real clarity on why I feel the way I do, instead of watching Michael Moore's "Sicko", watch the YouTube link to 20/20's John Stossel's special "Sick in America" (link). That hit all the major points in my opinion. It was less than flattering of the Canadian system and while the US's situation is not without room for real improvement, I really wouldn't trade.

I can't say I'm infavor of socialized ANYTHING for the USA. I am in favor of free enterprise and I have just felt really blessed with my health insurance and I am happy to have it. It's not cheap, but how can I complain about how expensive health insurance is when I am indulging is a hobby as frivolous as horses?


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## justanothercowgirl (Jan 17, 2008)

Jill has pointed out one of the most ridiculous pitfalls of the Canadian healthcare system and something that is a recent revision and a HUGE step backwards, IMO. Our doctors here are salary capped!! To me that is completely absurd and it has done nothing but add to the already huge problem we have with long wait times for tests and surgeries and people who don't have family dr.'s. We have seen a huge exodus of physicians leaving for other countries such as the US and why shouldn't they?? As Jill pointed out and I tend to agree, making an outstanding living tends to attract a higher caliber of person to the profession. In addition to the loss of doctors it has also caused some specialists to cut back to part time in order to not meet their salary cap too early in the year thus exacerbating the long wait problems.

I certainly do have to laugh when people refer to our healthcare as "free" LOL It is there for everyone and it comes at a cost to everyone....and certainly not without pitfalls....

Now if only we could find the perfect system for all of us!!!


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## LindaL (Jan 17, 2008)

I didnt read any of the responses....But, to answer your question....

Nope, my employer doesnt offer health insurance and I can't afford it. Still trying to pay off my medical bills from breaking my arm last August...


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## Matt73 (Jan 17, 2008)

Feel sorry for you Americans. Seen "Sicko"? We Canadians don't have/need health insurance. Hope that never changes





Sorry...Saw Danielle's post and totally agree!


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 17, 2008)

Jill said:


> Danielle_E. said:
> 
> 
> > There seems to be such a stigma attached to the words "socialized" in the U.S., speaking of medicine. Can I ask you to explain, those of you who are so against "universal" medical care, why? Do you feel it's better that the insurance companies are the ones that make the decision whether your claim is accepted or not?
> ...


Jill, if you believe everything that is in that 20/20 report, than you are like those that believe that Michael Moore's rendition is factural and accurate when neither are, not the 20/20 and not Michael Moore. Both are slanted in different directions, the truth lies in the middle. There are medical discoveries and important techniques that have been discovered, perfected in ALL countries. To say that the U.S. has the monopoly and is the only one is not true. The important part is that these discoveries and techniques are shared in the medical communities around the world so that everyone in each country can get the care required for diseases, heart surgeries, etc. etc. Because a doctor is better paid doesn't make for the doctor to be better at what he does. What about the doctor's that are with "physicans without borders" are you saying that they are less capable and less knowledgeable than any doctor in the U.S.? I think the system in the U.S. works very well for those that can afford the medical insurance but for those that can't afford The $800 or $1200 or whatever the amount is a month and have to forgo either meds or taking kids to the doctor for needed intervention, to me that just doesn't make sense. It seems that those that are not poor enough but not rich enough, are the ones that suffer. Are the lower middle class not the backbone of the working American public or are their more well off, or rich individuals (millionaires) that those that fall in the middle income level. When I watch the 20/20 link you gave us I cried when I heard that woman with breast cancer. I can only imagine how terrified she is. I know the mentality is different it seems in the U.S. on this than here but for such a caring nation that you live in, helping other countries, etc. would it not be better to perhaps put some of the money being given to other nations and being used to help make affordable insurance premiums if you all want to stay with the system you have? That way nobody would have to do without some kind of coverage in dire emergencies when they are potentitally life threatening.


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## LowriseMinis (Jan 18, 2008)

Allow me a 'woe is me' moment...

No insurance here. When I started my new job it was available to me at the cost of $900 a month-more than I make per month at the new job. I know there is independent insurance out there, but I really cannot afford it right now. When I get a second job I'm hoping their insurance will be more reasonable or I can afford it elsewhere.

I have a list of about seven pre-existing conditions which make my insurance pretty pricey. Thankfully, I don't THINK any of it is going to kill me, but it makes life pretty hard sometimes. I should be on a few different medicines for pain management and such, but when each medicine costs $60-$100 a month, you try and make do with Advil. A lot of it.

Because of those conditions I should be seeing a few different doctors regularly, too. I'm lucky that my regular doctor only charges me $45 for an office visit, and usually sends me home with some 'samples' so I have some medicine to work with, but I don't go in unless something is very wrong (last time, I couldn't eat).

Personally, I am all for national health care. I don't care if it's 'socialized'. So many people suffer or even die from preventable or needless causes because they can't afford medical care and it's awful, but I know how they feel. I'd sooner try and suffer through a major illness than rack up thousands of dollars in hospital bills that I have no way to pay off.


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## NoddalottaFarm (Jan 18, 2008)

What a blood boiling topic! My husband has health insurance paid for 100% by his company. It's only medical, not dental or vision. I am on his insurance, but we pay $89 a week for it. We have a deductible of $1,500.00 per person per year before the benefits actually kick in, so it doesn't start covering anything until that is met. My husband tore a muscle in his leg and has had x-rays and will need 2 $581.00 MRI's in the next week. So, if we can come up with the $$, our deductible will be met on him right away. I went from age 18 to age 26 without medical insurance and WITH major medical problems. I have numerous medical conditions that racked up about $58,000.00 in medical bills in that time period. Trying to find my first insurance at age 26 that would cover "pre existing medical conditions" was crazy hard! As long as dh can stay at this job, I think we will be okay until I get my knee replacements.


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## HaazeMinis (Jan 18, 2008)

I also have Medical Insurance THANK GOODNESS!

I have it through my Employer who pays 80% for his Employees (very small company). Mine costs me (Single Plan) aprox. 35.00 per week with a $500.00 deductable per year. It is a pretty good plan although it does not cover Dental or Vision (also wanted to add that I have NO PRESCRIPTION PLAN EITHER!)and I am not able to afford to put my Hubby on it, but hopefully next year I hope! Family Plan cost ALOT MORE even for ony two person household more than TRIPLE



because it is considered a "family plan" .

I am just so thankful I had it when I was diagnosed with Breast Cancer 2 years ago! I had to have Mommograms,Biopsies, MRI's, Bone Scan, have Radioactive stuff injected into me to see if the Cancer had spread to my Lyphnodes,Surgery, Chemotherapy & Radiation Treatments and on top of all that all the tests, bloodpanels(WEEKLY or every 3rd day) and ended up being hopitalized quite a few times because of Chemo reactions and another time was for a Blood Clot in my arm caused from an IV that had slipped out during one of my Hospital stays previously. At last count our medical bills that we saw where over 300,000



and were climbing at that time which was a LONG time ago! So, I can't imagine what the total is now after two and a half years!



Even now I still have to go regularly to the Oncologist, Bloodwork & Mommograms, Bone Scans & MRI's.

I do not even qualify for Short Term or Long Term Disability Plan my employer has now! They wont touch me with a 10 foot pole now that was diagnosed with Cancer!



Well not for 10 YEARS anyway!



I just pray that my Employer makes it through these TOUGH times! Sicne I work in a factory making wood cabinet doors for Modular and Mobile homes for different companies we have been REALLY REALLY SLOW and our layoffs started way back in late September which is UNUSUAL for us! I have been there 6 years!!!



If I loose my Job because of the "economy" I am screwed because of the "pre existing clause" which means I would have no choice but to keep the plan I have now and "carry" it on my own and finding another job would not be that easy to find making what I make now which isnt alot but its better than minimum wage. we make just above what it takes to qualify for our "State Plan" so that is out of the question.





Please excuse the typos I was in a hurry!








Well anyway, great topic!

Jeri


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## Jill (Jan 18, 2008)

Danielle --

Right or wrong, I do firmly hold 20/20's report in higher regard than anything I've seen or heard from Michael Moore. I've not seen Sicko and will not (why would I?). Like I said, he is a propagandist.

Also, if you think many major medical advancements come out of countries where there's not significant financial gains to be made as a result, that just boggles my mind.

Another thing, and I know this will not be popular, but it amazes me that people who have something as expensive and non-necessary as horses would then say they are not able to afford health insurance (sorry, but it's how I feel). To my mind, that's like driving an Escalade and not being able to afford the gas.

Another thing about socialized health care is think of the higher taxes, think of the lack of choices, think of more government oversight... Not my idea of a solution.

Jill


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## LowriseMinis (Jan 18, 2008)

Jill-I know for myself, I'm lucky. I co-own both my horses, but my parents (the other owners) provide the financial end, I provide the labor and know-how. I also partially run our little family farm and again provide labor in exchange for rent and food.

If I didn't have this arrangement, I couldn't afford said roof and food.

Regardless, I think it's sad that the cost of insurance is so prohibitive that anyone should have to go without it.


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 18, 2008)

I hope everyone will do some research on socialized medicine before making serious decisions. Check out Socialism and decide if that is what you want and what you think your kids and grankids would want. You might think "free" medical sevices would be nice for everyone but it could be one step closer to even worse problems.

Socialized Medicine in Canada's Healthcare System

Thi9s is just one outlook on it.

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Socialized Medicine in Canada's Healthcare System

Canada’s healthcare system has been the envy of many western industrialized countries for years. England’s Prime Minister Winston Churchill inspired it in 1948 when he said:

“The discoveries of healing science must be the inheritance of all […] Disease must be attacked whether it occurs in the poorest or the richest man or woman, simply on the ground that it is the enemy […] Our policy is to create a national health service in order to secure that everybody in the country, irrespective of means, age, sex, or occupation, shall have equal opportunities to benefit from the best and most up-to-date medical and allied services available” (Wollstein 23).

Completed in 1970, this socialized health plan provides free public healthcare. Every Canadian receives free doctors’ visits, free hospital care, free surgery, and free medicine while in the hospital. So well known and regarded, Canada’s healthcare system has long been looked to as a shining example of what socialized medicine could be and even won an international award for excellence in 1993.

Even though Canada’s Healthcare plan has had such a positive history it is now plagued with problems. Some of these problems include lack of doctors, lack of beds and supplies, and very long waiting periods for medical attention. Because of these problems arising in Canada’s healthcare there has been quite a debate going on in Canada over socialized medicine. Many people argue that these problems are due to the fallacies of socialized medicine claiming,

“Socialized medicine, like all other forms of socialism, is a world-wide failure. As people throughout the world from the Soviet Union to South America are learning, socialism cannot work. Socialized medicine results in skyrocketing demand for nominally “free” health care, doctors being over-burdened, medical services steadily deteriorating, and endless waiting periods for health services”(Wollstein 24).

Others, who are for socialized medicine in Canada feel the problem is not with the system but with the people themselves. They argue that people are exploiting the system and, “not taking enough responsibility for themselves”(Pierson 26). In any case both sides agree that the main cause of these problems is lack of money, but instead of arguing how they intend to secure more money for healthcare, they argue whether socialized medicine is good or not. This question of good and bad is a philosophical issue best discussed over time. Instead both of these sides should be joining together to fight for funds. Funds that their government owes them.

In 1970 at the dawn of Canada’s healthcare the federal government promised to provide 50% of all healthcare costs in Canada. The other 50% was supposed to be provided by local provinces. Since then the government has yet to pay 50% of healthcare costs and, to add insult to injury, has steadily decreased the amount of funding they once promised. From 1970 to 1983 the Canadian government paid only 37% of all health care costs leaving the local provinces to pay the other 63%. At this rate local provinces could fit the bill but in 1984, when the Canadian government amended the National Health Care Act, they cut their funding of health care costs down to a mere 29%. Then in 1990 after another budget cut the Canadian government paid only 25%. Since then there has been so many cuts in healthcare funding that ever since 1990 the Canadian government, with a population of 21 million, has spent less on healthcare than Washington D.C. who has a population of only 4 million (Frampton).

With ever increasing demand and cost for healthcare, local provinces, which now must pay over 75% of all healthcare services for their citizens, are forced to make cuts. Since service is one major cost for medical care many local provinces choose to cap doctors’ salaries. These caps range from each province but the average ceiling for doctors is 150,000(CD) for general practitioners and 175,000(CD) for specialists. These caps, besides making most doctors unhappy, has had some negative effects. The first and most noticeable effect is Canadian doctors leaving Canada for the United States. Dr. Warren Molberg, an emergency ward physician at Edmonton’s Royal Alexandra Hospital, says he and his colleagues regularly receive letters from United States healthcare companies. These companies apparently promise them guaranteed salaries that are much higher than what they receive in Canada and “the benefits, incentives and tax rates are also very attractive, as is the chance to work in sophisticated healthcare facilities equipped with the latest medical technologies”(Sillars 59). These packages are appealing to doctors whose work places are deteriorating and many are willing to go says Dr. Eldon Smith, dean of the University of Calgary medical school, “A lot of people are unhappy and a lot are talking about [moving to the U.S.]” Many people do not find this a problem and feel that there are too many doctors in Canada already but Dr. Smith believes that there is a risk of losing highly specialized physicians and teachers and says, “if we lose those, that’s a very serious issue.”

The second negative effect of these salary caps has to do with physicians’ distribution. Because of the cap on doctors’ salaries most doctors are choosing to work in major cities. In fact, over 85% off all doctors in Canada practice in the city. This has left a serious shortage of doctors in rural areas. The reason for this is rural doctors have much more work to do then city doctors do.

In the countryside there are at most two doctors for an entire area. These doctors must see everyone and are usually on call 24 hours a day. This was not a problem for most rural doctors because due to the increase in work they had a direct increase in pay. In fact, until the salary caps, most rural doctors were averaging 10% higher incomes than city doctors were. After the salary caps these rural doctors still had the same amount of work but could no longer make higher incomes. In the city physicians now made just as much money and with much less work. This created doctor shortages in rural areas and has had some very negative effects such as this story taken out of a local newspaper:

“Dennis Goodswimmer was driving eastward on highway 34 as fast as he dared to the Valleyview General Hospital. Beside him in the van’s passenger seat lay his son Joey, unconscious and bleeding after being hit by a car. Fortunately the hospital was no more than a 10 minute trip. But as the desperate dad neared town, paramedics in an ambulance intercepted him. Their news was grim indeed: due to an unexpected shortage of doctors, the Valleyview hospital was closed for the weekend Aug 21-22.

The hospital rebuilt just two years ago, cost $15 million. Virtually on its doorstep, Joey and his father waited for an air ambulance. The boy was flown from Valleyview to Grand Prairie and then to Edmonton, delaying his medical care for nearly an hour. The next morning, doctors at the University of Alberta Hospital declared the lad dead of head injuries”(C.S. 11).

Joey had the misfortune of living in a rural area. The hospital was closed due to one doctor being on vacation and the other doctor resting from exhaustion. Valleyview General hospital had tried to find a replacement physician but could not. With these caps rural areas cannot find enough doctors and because of this these people are not receiving medical services. This is definitely tragic especially when we look to poor little Joey as an example.

Doctors are not the only ones affected by the Canadian government’s budget cuts. The patients themselves are suffering. Due to lack of money for services and lack of doctors, patients are placed on long waiting lists. These waiting lists are so severe that women, on average, wait 6 months just for a pap smear and depending on the seriousness of your case you can be seen as early as 3.5 weeks for chemotherapy or up to 33 weeks for orthopedic surgery. Either way both of these waits are exceedingly long. In fact, a 1993 study found that Canadian cancer patients were waiting an average of three times longer than patients in the Untied States for treatment and one third longer than what their doctors thought was clinically reasonable. Even the wait that Canadian doctors deemed clinically reasonable was 33% to 50% longer than what United States doctors thought reasonable (Walker 45). Here is a list of average, actual wait periods in weeks versus clinically reasonable waits:

Apparently the Canadian government feels that an extreme waiting list will not kill you. This is not so when headlines like “Lack of beds and long lines killed my hubby, wife claims” appear in their newspapers. But even if the wait does not kill you, data published by Statistics Canada indicate that 45% of all patients waiting for healthcare say they are in pain. Some of these waits can be up to 6 months and according to Mr. Walker of the Fraser Institute, “The physical and psychological pain can be devastating.”

These lists have become so bad that many Canadians are now crossing the border into the United States to receive medical treatment. This phenomenon of border crossing became prevalent in 1987 and has grown larger year by year. In fact by 1994 over 30% of Canadians have crossed the United States border for medical treatment of one type or another. Border hopping to avoid lines has now become a common practice for anyone who can afford to pay for medical services in American hospitals. Unless the Canadian government owns up to its responsibilities this problem is going to continue to grow. In fact people on waiting lists grow each year by 20%.

This is completely unacceptable and unfair to Canadian citizens and this is also why they have had so many debates in this last decade discussing their healthcare. Unfortunately they have looked past the real cause of the problem and instead argued over whether socialized medicine can work or not. Both sides agree there is not enough money for their hospitals but fail to see the true reason why. One side argues that government controlled healthcare becomes too expensive and claims, “The monopoly of basic health insurance has led to a single, homogenous public system of healthcare delivery. In such a public monopoly, bureaucratic uniformity and lack of entrepreneurship add to the costs. The system is slow to adjust to changing demands and new technologies. It is no longer efficient and costs more money”(Lemieux 36).

Because of this reason they believe that socialized medicine should be discarded. But this will never happen in a country where 86% of the citizens still want free healthcare and this argument does not hold true in a country that pays much less for healthcare than the United States does. The other side has even less of an argument. They believe that people themselves are ruining the system. They feel that people abuse the system and expect too many services. But how can someone abuse that which is free?

Both sides recognize the shortages, the long wait periods, and the gaping lack of funds but they do not attribute this to the real culprit, the Canadian government. The Canadian government promised to pay a certain amount of the bill and with increased costs they are now trying to back out. They even passed laws making it impossible to receive private healthcare, which now forces everyone to wait in line for medical care. With their decreasing support Canada’s local provinces cannot bare the burden and healthcare, inevitably, is going down the tubes. Those who would argue whether socialized medicine is good or not should instead focus on making their government own up to its responsibilities.


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## Kim (Jan 19, 2008)

Okay, I rarely comment on these topics, but in case anyone is reading the "article" posted above, as a Canadian, I can assure you that it is completely inaccurate and absolutely ridiculous!


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## Jill (Jan 19, 2008)

I realize this will be unappreciated by most reading this thread but I just found this quote this morning by Dennis Miller, and it (of course) reminded me of this thread:

[SIZE=10pt][/SIZE]

_"Michael Moore simultaneously represents everything I detest in a human being and everything I feel obligated to defend in an American. Quite simply, it is that stupid moron's right to be that utterly, completely wrong."_
Dennis Miller


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 19, 2008)

I agree Kim



but if this is what they want to believe, so be it. I had a good laugh when I read about a pap smear taking 6 months to be administered






. Wonder where the writer of this article got his supposed "facts"



. Too funny.

For those of you who dislike Michael Moores over the top reporting you might enjoy

http://www.moorewatch.com/

I find it interesting that the two individuals that have that site slam him all the time and some of the discussions and arguments are, well lets say



. One is no better than the other but I have to admit they all make you think, Michael Moore and the other two gentleman. It's interesting that the bashing they do towards Michael Moore after Michael paid for one of the guys spouse's medical bill since they couldnt afford it and yet they continue to bad mouth him with extreme foul language many times and anyone who doesn't agree with them. Personally I always like to read both sides of the story, so to speak, and then come to my own opinions. I find Michael Moore much more of a class act than many even though he exagerates just like the rest of them. This is a very interesting topic and some good opinions on both sides of the issue


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## Riverdance (Jan 19, 2008)

Jill said:


> Danielle --
> 
> Right or wrong, I do firmly hold 20/20's report in higher regard than anything I've seen or heard from Michael Moore. I've not seen Sicko and will not (why would I?). Like I said, he is a propagandist.
> 
> ...


Some people already had the horses when they lost their medical. Then found out how hard it was to get medical coverage again without spending a fortune. Should they get rid of everything they love?


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 19, 2008)

There are a whole lot of opinions on the matter of socialized medicine and the article was only one. I do konw that Canadians come ito Montana for health services and there is good reasons for it. Truly, if you are happy with what you have, that is great for you but there are others who feel differently. We often have comments in our newspaper editorials about whether the US should have socialized medicine and we hear FROM Canadians who tell us to beware. I for one believe America has been strong because we have been a country of free enterprise and I do hope it can stay that way. Many of us believe that the less government in our lives the better off we are. We have enjoyed the independence of not only taking care of ourselves but also those who truly need help. I see our country weakening because more and more people feel the government should be taking care of them. I fully understand that medical services are horribly high and something needs to be done. But is it right to cap doctors fees while we want to have the choice to make as much as we can? Have you talked to a number of doctors there in Canada and understand what they feel about the situation? Don't just laugh at someone elses opinion when they are sincere and seeing something you haven't seen yet. There is nothing wrong with people like myself wanting to remain as free as possible from government intervention. I do appreciate all comments towards this subject and hope we can come up with some solutions and not just put the other person down. mARY



Kim said:


> Okay, I rarely comment on these topics, but in case anyone is reading the "article" posted above, as a Canadian, I can assure you that it is completely inaccurate and absolutely ridiculous!


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## Minimor (Jan 19, 2008)

Well, I live in canada, and so far have not had to go to the US for treatment. When I was diagnosed with a lung tumor, I was in the hospital having surgery within 2 weeks. My surgeon was--and no doubt still is-- one of the best there is, anywhere. He's brilliant.

I pay absolutely nothing for my health care. I do, however, have blue cross health insurance to pay for extras such as ambulance, semi-private hospital room, medical apparatus, chiropractor, massage therapy, physiotherapy (sometimes physio is covered by our health care, sometimes it isn't, and that is when blue cross kicks in), prescription drugs, etc etc. Through work I have extra coverage for vision care and dental work, though my regular blue cross will cover dental work if the work is required due to an accident.

Total cost of my blue cross insurance? $4.99 every 2 weeks.

That article truly is a joke. 6 months wait for a pap smear? Not hardly. I had to have mine redone. I called on Monday & had an appointment on Thursday of the same week. When I called to book my complete physical--which does mean a "long appointment" and therefore a longer wait than if one just wants a regular short appointment--it was only a 1 1/2 week wait.


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## Jill (Jan 19, 2008)

Riverdance said:


> Some people already had the horses when they lost their medical. Then found out how hard it was to get medical coverage again without spending a fortune. Should they get rid of everything they love?


I'm not telling anyone what they should do. We all have our own lives to live. However, in my own life, horses are a (much loved) luxury, and health insurance is a necessity. Without it, a person is one accident, one illness, away from the chance to loose everything (including the horses).


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## Minimor (Jan 19, 2008)

I didn't think to add this to my earlier post--it's true that we (Canada, or at least rural Manitoba) do lose some doctors to the US. Why? Because they can earn more money there than they can here. In most cases that is why they leave here--for some there are other considerations.

However, it's not necessarily our best doctors that we lose to the US. Sometimes the good ones go, but there are still many of the best that choose to stay here. Happily for us some of the very worst ones also choose to head off to the US--there have been a few of that kind from this area, and their leaving has been no loss at all. Bye bye & good riddance. I have to tell you that you are quite welcome to pay top dollar for the services of those doctors--we don't want them even when they are "free"!

I should have added, too, that here for someone that doesn't get blue cross benefits through their place of employment may get less insurance coverage for higher premiums. My mother, who is retired, buys an individual blue cross benefit plan. It costs here $114 every 3 months, so $456 per year. That doesn't cover any dental work or vision care (though both are available on a higher priced plan) and only $135 in prescription drugs. It will cover medical appliances, ambulance and semi private room. Based on income, she pays only the first $210 of her prescription drugs each year (and $135 of that is reimbursed by blue cross) and after that the provincial pharmacare program pays for her prescriptions.


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## Ashley (Jan 19, 2008)

Yep I wouldnt give up my horses. I have had some of them for 13 years. They are what keep me going, they are by far the most important thing to me. I can live with out insurrance and have them.


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## Danielle_E. (Jan 19, 2008)

Buckskin gal said:


> There are a whole lot of opinions on the matter of socialized medicine and the article was only one. I do konw that Canadians come ito Montana for health services and there is good reasons for it. Truly, if you are happy with what you have, that is great for you but there are others who feel differently. We often have comments in our newspaper editorials about whether the US should have socialized medicine and we hear FROM Canadians who tell us to beware. I for one believe America has been strong because we have been a country of free enterprise and I do hope it can stay that way. Many of us believe that the less government in our lives the better off we are. We have enjoyed the independence of not only taking care of ourselves but also those who truly need help. I see our country weakening because more and more people feel the government should be taking care of them. I fully understand that medical services are horribly high and something needs to be done. But is it right to cap doctors fees while we want to have the choice to make as much as we can? Have you talked to a number of doctors there in Canada and understand what they feel about the situation? Don't just laugh at someone elses opinion when they are sincere and seeing something you haven't seen yet. There is nothing wrong with people like myself wanting to remain as free as possible from government intervention. I do appreciate all comments towards this subject and hope we can come up with some solutions and not just put the other person down. mARY
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gee, I hope this isn't being taken as putting people down. That certainly is NOT the intent. If the system that you have in the U.S. works for you then that is wonderful. I am concerned about the others in the U.S., some of you have shared some of the hardships (lack of insurance, not being able to afford medical help when needed, losing homes). That is what truly shocks many of us who have a different system. I never said our system didn't have it's problems, it does but what I am saying is no matter what your income is you are covered for "health" and I think that is an important thing. You say you don't want more government control but even those of you who pay exhorbitant prices for health insurance are being controlled. Your insurance carrier is controlling you, big business is controlling your lives. You know we say here in Canada, the U.S. ect ect. we live in a "free" society. No we don't. There are controls all over the place, EVERYWHERE. We are much better off than those in China or other communist countries, that's for sure. But tell the person who travels alot whether there isn't control at the moment at the airports. Tell that to the travellers. We in many countries enjoy more freedom than others, but total freedom, no way, in no countires. The difference I see with doctors that head to the U.S. is that $$ and lots of it, talks. That is what is important to those doctors. They work long hours and I certainly don't begrudge them a decent salary but at what cost? I guess the bottom line is the only important thing in this world is making huge amounts of money? Is that what life is all about? I know, now I am getting philisophical, but I think greed in this world is a major problem and I am not talking about the U.S. I am talking about society as a whole. They say that their is enough food in this world to go around, that starvation doesn't have to be, and yet there are many people starving in this world. It's not only medical systems in this world that are sick, I think alot of society is "sick".


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## JennyB (Jan 19, 2008)

[SIZE=12pt][/SIZE]

Hi Bonnie I getcha and agree 100%! I hope someday this country has basic heathcare for free for ALL people. It's only right and I am one of the many who had NO health insurance!!!






...one of my meds cost $300. per month, but I don't pay that and have my docs keep me in samples. thank the Lord! .... That is the "only" thing I can do





My new presidental "wish" is that the health care system in this country changes for the better or I am headed for Canada!

Jenny


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## Izzyantheminis (Jan 19, 2008)

It really annoys me to hear people carry on about long waits for medical care in Canada. There can be longs waits to be seen here in the US too.It can easily be a month and a half to see a specialist.

Seems like most folks I've heard from in Canada are pleased with their health care system.Even with it's flaws.Thats cool.


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## Pepipony (Jan 19, 2008)

Dont think our system is quite broken? I am on SSD for an illness, however insurance will not cover treatment because its not 'serious'.





I dont think that we should be paying elected officials what they decide to pay themselves, while we have people that are in need. I dont think I should pay for joe shmoes rug rat to go to school then tell me my health care, if given by the Gov, would be socialized. I also dont think that welfare should be a life long thing, hand up, not hand out. As for taxes to pay for health care, with the debt this country has ( thanks Bush, what a help) the last thing we need to think about is lowering of any taxes.


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 20, 2008)

"I pay absolutely nothing for my health care. "

This statement absolutely floors me!! Any person who is not paying for their health care does not t seem to realize that SOMEONE is paying for it! The doctors are not working for nothing nor would most of us expect them to. Hospitals and clinics do not build or maintain themselves either. If someone isn't paying for their health care it means that someone else is paying it for them.

For those who think the US doesn't provide heath care for people who are in dire need and for many others, all I can say is you are wrong and don't know how things works here. It is true that people have to make choices as to what their priorites are. Sometimes it is the choice of having luxuries or necessities. I would just like to ask, if a person chooses to have the luxuries before paying for ther necessities

do they feel that other peole should pick up their tab for the necessities?



Oh well, maybe I have lived long enough to know from experiences that there isn't anything "free" in life and I don't expect it to be that way. I do hope something can be worked out so everyone who wants health coverage is able to pay for their health care for it is a needed necessity.



Minimor said:


> Well, I live in canada, and so far have not had to go to the US for treatment. When I was diagnosed with a lung tumor, I was in the hospital having surgery within 2 weeks. My surgeon was--and no doubt still is-- one of the best there is, anywhere. He's brilliant.
> 
> I pay absolutely nothing for my health care. I do, however, have blue cross health insurance to pay for extras such as ambulance, semi-private hospital room, medical apparatus, chiropractor, massage therapy, physiotherapy (sometimes physio is covered by our health care, sometimes it isn't, and that is when blue cross kicks in), prescription drugs, etc etc. Through work I have extra coverage for vision care and dental work, though my regular blue cross will cover dental work if the work is required due to an accident.
> 
> ...


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## Minimor (Jan 20, 2008)

Oh Mary, don't be so RIDICULOUS. That's not the word I was originally going to use, but then decided to be nice. The first choice might have been too insulting. Of course "we all" pay "something" for health care--that's part of the taxes we pay. That goes without saying! (Or at least I thought it did. I suspect everyone else here realizes that government funded health care is actually paid for with tax dollars. Are you really that clued out?)



But in saying I pay absolutely nothing for health care, I mean that I can go to the clinic and see a doctor without paying $173 (the amount quoted by someone earlier on this thread I think?) to do it. And when I needed my lung surgery I didn't need to worry about whether or not I had health insurance that would pay for it, and I didn't have to have $50000 or $70000 to pay for that surgery, and I didn't have to do without that surgery because I didn't have $50000 or $70000 (or whatever it might actually cost, I have no idea!) to pay for it.

Obviously some people use the health care system more than others. There are those that run to the doctor over every little thing and on the opposite end there are those that don't go to the doctor even when they desperately need to, just because they don't like going to the doctor and have to be half dead before they'll finally break down & go to the clinic. However, it is very very rare to hear anyone complain about someone else overusing the system. You'll hear complaints about people abusing welfare, but none about excess trips to the doctor. I think that's because the majority of people are happy to have the "free" health care. Even if one doesn't use it now, it's very very nice to know that it is there should one need it in the future.

I do hear people complain, though, about the Americans that come up here & fraudulently use our healthcare system. And yes, it happens. I've never been too sure on how they get the necessary ID to use the health system, but they do it. If your health care is so superior to ours, why do you suppose anyone would choose to come up here & use the Canadian health system??

And BTW--I grew up in the US and am still a US citizen--I know first hand what the system there is like & can make comparisons.


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## LowriseMinis (Jan 20, 2008)

Here's a question for the Canadian folks-is there anywhere in Canada where your health coverage does not apply?

My parents have excellent health insurance-as long as they're in California. My dad had a heart attack in 2006 while he was in Texas, got excellent and prompt care in one of the best cardiac hospitals in the nation there, and when we got home we found out that our insurance only covers care in California and neighboring states (I believe Nevada, Arizona, and maybe Oregon and Utah). So now my parents are making payments on his $20,000 hospital bill from the ambulance ride, emergency surgery, second surgery in another artery, and a 5 day stay in ICU.

I just think it's odd. It's not like he could come home and THEN get medical treatment in the insurance's 'coverage area' with something like that!


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 20, 2008)

Well, since you know it all and don't use the words to say what you mean , I will leave it at that. OH! Don't see the need for you to get rude but then OH well, Shrug. I certainly have no intention of arguig with you and will say no more.



Minimor said:


> Oh Mary, don't be so RIDICULOUS. That's not the word I was originally going to use, but then decided to be nice. The first choice might have been too insulting. Of course "we all" pay "something" for health care--that's part of the taxes we pay. That goes without saying! (Or at least I thought it did. I suspect everyone else here realizes that government funded health care is actually paid for with tax dollars. Are you really that clued out?)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Jill (Jan 20, 2008)

Buckskin gal said:


> "I pay absolutely nothing for my health care. "
> 
> This statement absolutely floors me!! Any person who is not paying for their health care does not t seem to realize that SOMEONE is paying for it!


I'm right with you there, Mary. I'd even say that those people do not realize that nearly EVERYONE is paying for it.

Every once in awhile, I'll even meet people who think they paid nothing in income taxes because they got a refund... I just don't have a tremendous amount of patience for people who are so ignorant about something so important.

These threads really make me feel aggressively patriotic and while we have room for improvement in our health care system, I don't think that improvement would be moving to a Canadian style socialized system at all.

Additionally, my own personal health care coverage, choices, and quality of care could not be better. Ditto for that of my family. WE are not the ones who need improvement, but I would like to see a way for people who truly need help to get some (and that would be people who cannot afford it, not those who don't have the money for it due to choices they make.)


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## Minimor (Jan 20, 2008)

> Here's a question for the Canadian folks-is there anywhere in Canada where your health coverage does not apply?


Our health coverage & standard blue cross insurance (for ambulance & such) is good throughout Canada. However, if we travel outside the country, then it is wise to purchase extra travel insurance. If a Canadian were to require health care in the US for instance, there is only a very small amount that would be covered by our health system.



> Every once in awhile, I'll even meet people who think they paid nothing in income taxes because they got a refund...


Wow, really? I've never come across anyone quite that dumb, though I do know a couple that make so little they get 100% of what they pay in refunded. And yes, I also know some that actually don't pay in any income tax, but do get a refund--the ones I know that's the case for are either seniors who don't get a large pension & so have no tax deducted (they get refunded a cost of living amount) or stay-at-home moms who don't pay anything in but do get a tax refund because of child tax credits. But for most of us, yeah, the people I know are fully aware that they pay a healthy chunk of tax over & above whatever amount they may get refunded.


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## Charley (Jan 20, 2008)

Acutually, there are a lot of people in the U.S. who do not pay any income tax and get tax refunds....aka earned income credit. I have seen many returns where the person pays in very little income and even no income tax and gets a hefty refund. It is not dependent on tax paid in.

"The Earned Income Tax Credit (EITC) sometimes called the Earned Income Credit (EIC), is a refundable federal income tax credit for low-income working individuals and families. Congress originally approved the tax credit legislation in 1975 in part to offset the burden of social security taxes and to provide an incentive to work. When the EITC exceeds the amount of taxes owed, it results in a tax refund to those who claim and qualify for the credit.

To qualify, taxpayers must meet certain requirements and file a tax return, even if they did not earn enough money to be obligated to file a tax return.

The EITC has no effect on certain welfare benefits. In most cases, EITC payments will not be used to determine eligibility for Medicaid, Supplemental Security Income (SSI), food stamps, low-income housing or most Temporary Assistance for Needy Families (TANF) payments."


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## Jill (Jan 20, 2008)

The people I've met who don't think they pay income tax because they received a refund are people who have substantial, taxable, income





It comes up when I start a conversation to help them (clients / potential clietns) see that some of their taxable investments are causing income taxes, and maybe more of their social security income to be taxable as well.

Then there's a group of relatives (not my side of the family LOL) that also think refunds mean they didn't pay income tax.


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## Charley (Jan 20, 2008)

Jill, that is sad...Right up there with those who just don't care about the poor because they aren't...namely government.


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## Jill (Jan 20, 2008)

What really bothers me (not in a frustated way but a concerned one) is that there are so many couples I see where one of them (almost always the wife) doesn't know anything about their finances. With almost all my clients, they have plenty of money, but the wive's would really need help if something happened to the husband. I've been working with one client who is a recent widow (became our clients when the husband was still alive). When she first came in after her husband's death, I had to work with her several times a month to help figure out her bills, teach her how to write checks, etc. It just really concerns me for the spouses who do not work with a financial planner or have someone else who can help teach them the real basics of day to day finance (without taking advantage of them). It's alarming how many people just don't know how to handle these items.


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## Charley (Jan 20, 2008)

Yes, that is a problem. I know of women who still don't know how to put gas in their cars.



Years ago when my husband was in the military I had a friend whose husband wrote out all the checks for bills and labeled them with dates for her to put in the mail before he went to sea as his wife didn't know how to write a check...or drive. She literally was homebound when he was gone. Ignorance really limits people be they rich or poor.


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## FoRebel (Jan 20, 2008)

I just saw this thread and wanted to say that even though we have health insurance it sucks. Our insurance didn't cover any of my maternity/delivery even though they said that they would. I had an unplanned c-section and ended up with a $30K bill from the hospital for it, the insurance company won't pay ANY of the cost! We make too much for medical aid so that's out of the question... We'll end up paying the $30K over the next 5 + years just because our insurance is now refusing to pay my maternity/delivery costs!



Needless to say, we're looking into health insurance by ourselves.


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## SilverDollar (Jan 22, 2008)

I am fortunate in that I have excellent health insurance. We pay around $100 per month for medical, dental, vision and prescription drug coverage. It covers all the "alternative" therapies, too. It is the main reason I stay at my corporate job even though I'd love to start my own business. In time I will. I can only imagine how scary it must be not to have health insurance, and for that reason I stay with my company.

I heard a woman interviewed on a financial show I listen to (Bob Brinker--Jill, you probably have heard of him? BobBrinker.com). She is a Harvard Business School professor and her name is Regina Herzlinger. She has a book out called Who Killed Health Care? that is on my to-read list. IMHO, she has the most sane proposal for health reform in this country that I have heard to date. It sounds middle-of-the-road and like it might actually be a feasible place to start. Here's a little about her and the book:

"One of the nation's most respected health care analysts, Regina Herzlinger exposes the motives and methods of those who have crippled America's health care system-figures in the insurance, hospital, employment, governmental, and academic sectors. She proves how our current system, which is organized around payers and providers rather than the needs of its users, is dangerously eroding patient welfare and is pushing costs out of the reach of millions."

"Who Killed Health Care? then outlines Herzlinger's bold new plan for a consumer-driven system that will deliver affordable, high-quality care to everyone. By putting insurance money in the hands of patients, removing the middleman in the doctor-patient relationship, and giving employers cost relief, consumers and physicians will be empowered to make the system work the way it should. Herzlinger describes in precise detail how her innovative program will provide:

-Smaller, disease-focused medical facilities that provide complete care for patients

-A national system of medical records that provides privacy with confidential access by approved practitioners

-Mandatory performance evaluations of all hospitals and all other medical organizations

-Mandatory health insurance with subsidies for those who cannot afford it

I have ordered the book and am anxious to read what else she says. Things definitely have to change in this country. One really good place to start would be securing our borders. Living near Los Angeles we see the severe effects of illegals clogging our emergency rooms and forcing closure of numerous hospitals, all at the expense of legal citizens. I would much rather see our country taking care of law-abiding citizens before felons (yes, it's a felony to come here illegally). Nothing is free. We currently pay in the form of taxes and outrageous insurance premiums. The people who go to the emergency room and can't pay are being paid for by those of us _with_ insurance--whether we pay the premium or our company does.

FoRebel, why would your insurance company not pay for your maternity/delivery? Have you gone through an appeals process? Sounds like you have 30,000 reasons to try that route. That does not seem correct. Insurance companies always try to get anyone else to pay before they will. (Has anyone ever heard of the Rawlings Company? They send a letter any time we have treatment for something they think could be an injury that is someone else's fault. Ridiculous!)


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## Jill (Jan 22, 2008)

Thank you for that information on Regina Herzlinger. I will be looking into her book. From what is outlined, it sounds like she has some excellent ideas.

What I really think is this country, and not just when it comes to health care, needs to be run like a business in many ways. _(I'm really hopeful about a particular candidate, Mitt Romney)_.

I'll be sharing this book with my dad as well! And probably any clients who will listen (they are fairly like minded).


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 22, 2008)

Thanks for the info on the book. Sounds like some valuable information for all to consider. I have heard a little about Romneys health care thoughts but want to learn more. He definitely has shown to be a good business man. I also agree that illegals are creating a lot of problems for our hospitals and doctors. We are going to be even more distressed when we find hospital doors closed!! Mary


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## Fred (Jan 22, 2008)

I was raised in Massachusetts and have many clients in the state and I know firsthand how the state is as I live next door in NH. I would not vote for Romney as he is nothing but a slick used car salesman. Remember the "big dig" I do and I still can't get through Boston to get to the south shore on via 93. Hmmn, not only that they have the worst roads I have ever driven and I drive in Mass A LOT. They have major potholes on the main highways one of which flipped over a truck and trailer killing the horse. Took out my brother-in laws transmission on his car on another one. As for the Mass health care system YOU ARE REQUIRED to purchase insurance whether or not you can afford it and if you don't you will be fined! I am a republican and I can honestly say I would not vote for the man even if he made the nomination. He passed the "big dig" buck on to his Lt Governor and let her take the heat, funny how people forget things like that especially when someone died because of it. What he may say is NOT what he may DO.


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## Buckskin gal (Jan 22, 2008)

I am glad you posted your opinion of Romney because I do like to hear all sides. I would guess he may want to have a health insurance plan as Mass. I do want to learn more about it and him before making any decisions. Would be good if everyone had health coverage and did pay something for it. Lots to learn yet, here. Mary



Fred said:


> I was raised in Massachusetts and have many clients in the state and I know firsthand how the state is as I live next door in NH. I would not vote for Romney as he is nothing but a slick used car salesman. Remember the "big dig" I do and I still can't get through Boston to get to the south shore on via 93. Hmmn, not only that they have the worst roads I have ever driven and I drive in Mass A LOT. They have major potholes on the main highways one of which flipped over a truck and trailer killing the horse. Took out my brother-in laws transmission on his car on another one. As for the Mass health care system YOU ARE REQUIRED to purchase insurance whether or not you can afford it and if you don't you will be fined! I am a republican and I can honestly say I would not vote for the man even if he made the nomination. He passed the "big dig" buck on to his Lt Governor and let her take the heat, funny how people forget things like that especially when someone died because of it. What he may say is NOT what he may DO.


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## Fred (Jan 22, 2008)

I agree everyone SHOULD have access to health care but understand there are people who do not have the money to pay for it that will be charged for it [the working poor]. Like I said you are required to have insurance in MA and even though it may be required there will still be people not insured. So what happens then you are fined because you don't have the money to pay? Not everyone can buy insurance in blocks like larger companies do so the premium goes up way higher if you are self employed. The rates vary so much what you may pay might be reasonable but what someone else may pay may be very different. If you knew what you have to pay in NH you would be appalled and MA is cheaper.


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## bfogg (Jan 22, 2008)

Fred said:


> I was raised in Massachusetts and have many clients in the state and I know firsthand how the state is as I live next door in NH. I would not vote for Romney as he is nothing but a slick used car salesman. Remember the "big dig" I do and I still can't get through Boston to get to the south shore on via 93. Hmmn, not only that they have the worst roads I have ever driven and I drive in Mass A LOT. They have major potholes on the main highways one of which flipped over a truck and trailer killing the horse. Took out my brother-in laws transmission on his car on another one. As for the Mass health care system YOU ARE REQUIRED to purchase insurance whether or not you can afford it and if you don't you will be fined! I am a republican and I can honestly say I would not vote for the man even if he made the nomination. He passed the "big dig" buck on to his Lt Governor and let her take the heat, funny how people forget things like that especially when someone died because of it. What he may say is NOT what he may DO.





Linda,















































!

Bonnie


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## FoRebel (Jan 22, 2008)

SilverDollar said:


> FoRebel, why would your insurance company not pay for your maternity/delivery? Have you gone through an appeals process? Sounds like you have 30,000 reasons to try that route. That does not seem correct. Insurance companies always try to get anyone else to pay before they will.


They say that we've met the annual maximum payout, but we know that we haven't. Hubby is calling them to figure out what the heck is going on. If they aren't going to pay I am going to call the MA worker that I've worked with previously to see about getting some kind of catastrophic coverage or some sort of help from the state.


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