# Pessoa Training Aids



## funnybunny (Dec 26, 2008)

In another thread, Rabbitsfizz mentions using Pessoa to help a horse balance and find a natural head set.

While I know this was developed by a horseman who was at the top of his game, there has been much discussion for a few years on several other horse lists I've been on regarding the efficacy of using this system.

Some say it is great while others say it only teaches the horse to evade the bit.

Can we have a fri




endly discussion of the pros and cons?


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 26, 2008)

I've been reading different forums about the use of the system since reading the post by Rabbitfizz.

Some people love it, some don't.

I would love to hear from anyone who's used it.

It seems similar to long lining with two reins (actually I use one really long one hooked to the bit on each side) and using the rein behind the haunches to encourage the horse to use it's hind end.

On one of the posts someone suggest using a bungy to do this. I wonder if you used tubing attached to the sircingle, but not the bit, if it would help accomplish the same thing.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 26, 2008)

I have adapted the system to suit myself, so it is not fixed, as the original system is.

All reins and attachments "slide" so the horse has complete freedom but, depending on the adjustment, it just becomes more comfortable for it to carry it's head as you intend it to.

It can still move it's head back to it's original position, so I am not forcing it to change immediately.

I have had huge success with this method with animals with deep seated and old problems (I also did physio on the animal, it was not just the reining system!)

I have no photos but I will try to get a drawing of it up.

The thing I particularly like is that my adaptation encourages the horse to engage it's rear end at all times.


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## willowoodstables (Dec 26, 2008)

I am with Fizzy on this one. Fixed contraptions can and will do more harm than something you can operate. Horses will lean on the bit, evade the bit, round the wrong way to evade etc. My hands/eyes are faster than a fixed idea. See my post in the bitting rig topic to see my longlining set up. The outside line stays low and around the haunches, helps the horse to "go onto" the bit by keeping them long and low. Just like any hunter or dressage horse, long and low starts then collection follows once the horse understands impulsion and gets the muscle strength to carry their body/neck/head.

Kim


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## funnybunny (Dec 26, 2008)

JourneysEnd, I've read the same things on that board. It seems that people love them or hate them with a passion.

Criticism seems to be that it creates a "false frame" as the horse evades the bit and that the horse doesn't extend the hind legs backward for propulsion enough because the pulley pulls directly on the mouth.

I'd like for Rabbitfizz to explain how she has adapted the system so it doesn't do those things.

Thank you for any explanations.s


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 26, 2008)

Okay Fizzy - We need more info.

Parts list, drawing, whatever you're willing to share.

Thanks,

Vickie


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 27, 2008)

Scanner playing up, I'll keep trying, though!!!


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## mondak (Dec 27, 2008)

I got the pessoa for christmas last year and I love it! My gelding has some conformational issues that were creating a road block for us as far as engagement is concerned. By putting him in the pessoa in the lowest (green) attachment, it really encouraged him to round up his back the best he could a push, especially in the canter.

Courtney


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 27, 2008)

mondak said:


> I got the pessoa for christmas last year and I love it! My gelding has some conformational issues that were creating a road block for us as far as engagement is concerned. By putting him in the pessoa in the lowest (green) attachment, it really encouraged him to round up his back the best he could a push, especially in the canter.
> Courtney


Did you get the pony size ?

I'm still thinking this can be made. Just waiting for Rabbitfizz's scanner to work.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 27, 2008)

Still trying, but I did not buy anything, I made the whole thing out of harness parts and nylon rope, plus sheepskin sleeves.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 27, 2008)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Still trying, but I did not buy anything, I made the whole thing out of harness parts and nylon rope, plus sheepskin sleeves.


Doesn't the rope bind in the sheepskin sleeves? I use plastic tubing covered in fake fur to prevent it burning and so that the rope slides through easily.

A word of caution: this isn't something you can just throw on a green horse and go! Like everything the horse needs to be gradually introduced to it and worked up to more and more frame but be careful, you can easily get a horse overbending with this. Use it for very short periods of time - no more than 5 or 10 minutes to start or you will make him sore.


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 27, 2008)

Lori, not for a green horse in my case. Did you make your own setup ?

Any suggestions, drawings, pictures, etc you'd be willing to share ?

Thanks,

Vickie


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## maestoso (Dec 28, 2008)

I love the system! I used it on my eventers all the time. I wish I had a mini size one!

Like ANY training aid, it is only as good as the person using it. If used properly it doesn't force your horse into anything. If used properly it will not create bad habits or have "fake" results. If used improperly it could have any number of bad results! Kind of like side reins, if you use them the right way, they are a great tool, the wrong way, and you've done more damage than you've done good.


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## funnybunny (Dec 28, 2008)

O.K. Matt and Fizzy...

So how do you use properly so it doesn't cause the bad results?

Can y'all give examples of bad usage vs. good usage and be specific? Thanks.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 28, 2008)

It is one of many training aids that I use. The trick with training aids is knowing which one to use for which horse at what time. Not all horses need all training aids but some can solve problems you are having with an individual horse. I get everything I need, other than harness parts and surcingles, at the hardware store - snaps, rings, tubing and ropes. Nylon rope is good for these types of things because it slides easily but you do have to remember that it won't break easily and will burn if the horse gets tangled up on you. There are photos on line I am sure if you google Pessoa and you should be able to figure it out from there. I don't use a pulley at the bit but rather just go through the bit as with sliding side reins. I have to stress, as with any training aid, the horse needs to be introduced to it slowly and with care.


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 28, 2008)

So Lori and Matt, is the trick that the horse "gooses" himself when he picks his head up ?

I use sliding side reins with this horse quite a bit. He's high in the rear and ewe necked. I have to work him in what looks like it's the "green" positiion in the pessoa setup to engage his hind at all.


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 28, 2008)

Found a diagram of the system.

http://www.englishridingsupply.com/files/s...ssoa_system.pdf

It looks like a sliding side rein attached to breeching.

Is the beginning adjustment to the girth ? Then the step ups adjust like a sliding side rein ?

Would appreciate input from those of you who have used the system including what changes you made to it.

Thanks,

vickie


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 28, 2008)

It works on the basic principle that if the horse is not carrying himself the way we want him to it is uncomfortable for him. I personally prefer to use sliding side reins in most cases but the pessoa does encourage self carriage a little more strongly, too strongly in some cases. I don't have pulleys at the bit like in the store bought version. I use a surcingle with a crouper to keep it from sliding forwards.


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## maestoso (Dec 28, 2008)

Improper uses . . . .

Well you need to know what an engaged horse looks like. And many people do not. Roundness, power, proper carriage, etc, all starts from the hind. An engaged horse that is stepping through from behind will move into the bit and come onto it because that's what is comfortable, and that is the boundary you have given him. A horse who is not engaged and is just trotting along tucks his nose to avoid contact with the bit, usually resulting in a hollow back, and no impulsion. But this looks right to an inexperienced eye.

The other thing is that you have to work your way up, starting with the basics. The pessoa system is designed to encourage several different carriages, ranging from so long and low that the nose is dragging on the ground to an upper level high headed dressage frame. You can't start at the top, because the horse doesnt have the muscle to do it properly.

Another big mistake is that people will leave their animals in the system for too long, or do it too often. It really should only be used a few times a week. Lounging in the pessoa system for 25 minutes is equivalent to an hour long active dressage ride. You can't take a horse who's never done it and expect him to go and lounge in the system for 20 minutes or more, they will get sore and sour.

Lounging/ground training can be just as technical as riding or driving, and I'd recommend any beginner to get some lessons.

Those are just some of the mistakes people make while using these aids.


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 28, 2008)

Do you find the mouth is constantly bumped with this system even when yielding to the bit ?

That's my biggest concern.

Sliding side reins, of course, don't interfere with the mouth as long as the horse yields.

I'm wondering if what I already do with sliding side reins and long lines is a better system or is this something to incorporate into the current program.

Just read Matt's comments. So true. So many people look for collection in the head without watching the feet. If the horse is engaged and tracking up properly, the head set comes naturally.

This all comes more from a dressage POV than the breed ring.

Thoughts ?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 29, 2008)

I know Keely made one of these for her minis, can someone PM her and ask for photos/instructions?

Leia


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## mondak (Dec 29, 2008)

> I'm wondering if what I already do with sliding side reins and long lines is a better system or is this something to incorporate into the current program.


This depends on what kind of issues you are having with a horse. If the horse is showing little topline development, then this system would be a great thing to ease the horse into using as it gets them to round up their back and start tracking correctly (dressage). If you are planning to do any kind of ADS style driving or looking to improve your dressage work with a seasoned CDE pony, then yes this system would come in handy at times. It is not something I use everyday, that is not its intension, but it is a great tool to help your horse get the idea of traveling from back to front.



> Just read Matt's comments. So true. So many people look for collection in the head without watching the feet. If the horse is engaged and tracking up properly, the head set comes naturally.This all comes more from a dressage POV than the breed ring.
> 
> Thoughts ?


This is all from a dressage perspective, but many driving trainers, even in the breed ring, like to teach the horse to lift their front end and push up under themselves with their hindend. It creates a very pleasure picture because the horse looks powerful and is moving his shoulder's freely with lots of lift in the front....however this takes YEARS in the dressage ring, and very very very few horses are conformationally able to really lift their front ends like that (think of a plane taking off and how the nose of the plane leaves the ground first). SO, this system will by no means turn a horse into something that it is not, but it will definitely help build the correct muscles for traveling in a dressage type frame. I am happy with it.






Courtney


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 29, 2008)

Where can I get more info on how to use the system properly ?


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 31, 2008)

Bumping up in the hopes Keely will see and give us some info.


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## funnybunny (Jan 1, 2009)

Bump.

More info appreciated on this subject.

I wouldn't want to start using this type of system until I get as much information as I can on its use or misuse.


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## maestoso (Jan 1, 2009)

I always used it on my eventers, but didn't know they made them in mini size. I would also love the info on where to get one for minis.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 1, 2009)

I have no idea where or if you can get one in Miniature size. I made mine from parts of harness and things I picked up at the hardware store. I really don't suggest using one unless you know how it works and how it goes together and whether or not it is even necessary for your horse. This is not something that can be learned via the forum. Like most training equipment it can be harmful, useful or even dangerous depending on how it is used. Find a trainer near you that is willing to help you hands on with your horse. If you have used one previously you should easily be able to set one up with nylon rope and hardware purchased separately.


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## ponyarab (Jan 2, 2009)

Below is a link for a lady that makes this type of equipment and it shows a picture of a mini wearing it.

http://www.freewebs.com/theslickhorse/


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## JourneysEnd (Jan 2, 2009)

Thanks for the link !


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## mondak (Jan 2, 2009)

AHHH very cool, thanks for the link!

Courtney


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 2, 2009)

OK I am_ ridiculously_ pleased with myself!!

It has taken THREE hours (hope it is worth it) and just before I kicked the thing out of the window it stopped saving everything to Microsoft Office and behaved!!!






Well, almost, I had rotated this in photobucket but it appears to have unrotated itself and I am just NOT up to arguing.

I hope someone can turn it for me???

This is what I used on Victor (Welsh Cob) with enormous success, I shall not try to explain it, please...it is easier if you just ask questions, should you wish to!!


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## JourneysEnd (Jan 2, 2009)

Thanks, great picture !

Why did you run the line through "B" ?


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 2, 2009)

To explain, B is a ring at the poll similar to a side check ring.

The solid red line is one setting, making it a Chambon derivative.

The dotted lines are different settings.

Obviously I do not recommend the chambon setting for an inexperienced person!!!


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## whitney (Jan 5, 2009)

Use it LOVE IT. I also made mine. I was introduce to it at a driving seminar (large horse) also a friend used in on her mini mare with WONDERFUL results. The biggest thing I find is the ability of the rig to give consistent ques.

And also as far a FIXED rigs you can FIX your hands and get the same results. NOT GOOD!


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