# New Pair Pictures



## keely2682 (Feb 23, 2011)

my boys' first time hooked up together


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## MINI REASONS (Feb 23, 2011)

Great picture !!! That looks like so much fun. I love your little wagon too.


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## Knottymare (Feb 23, 2011)

That just looks like the best; nice team, cute cart, beautiful location and a lovely day!


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## TheCaseFamily00 (Feb 23, 2011)

Looks like you had a great time,thanks for sharing.


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## lucky seven (Feb 23, 2011)

Thanks for sharing, nice to see grass again.


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## Marsha Cassada (Feb 23, 2011)

Wow! What a nice presentation you all make. They seem to be going nicely together.


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## jegray21 (Feb 23, 2011)

So cool!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 23, 2011)

They're adorable, Keely! Harness adjustment looks pretty good from what I can see and I DEFINITELY want to try that carriage out for my boys at Nationals in 2012. Looks like it would be great for their size and you said the weight was right-on for a smaller pair too. Do you still have the shorter pole I think you said it came with?

I kept staring at those reins as something seemed wrong there. It's hard to tell exactly how you have them run but in the second photo it appears you have the coupling rein through the opposite horse's neck terret? My understanding is that if they run through any neck terret at all it should be through the horse whose bit it is attached to to ensure that the pull is more backwards than lateral. The way you have it looks complicated and the reins seem to come up the middle between the horses instead of along the outside of each horse as they should.

I would also lock down the evener bar the singletrees are on as your pair is green and eveners can cause problems when the pair first starts forward. It looks like it's permanently canted so the lefthand horse is forward and if that's not a visual illusion it needs to be fixed.

The two boys themselves look awesome though and I can't wait to see them really going! What a high it must have been to finally hitch them together.





Leia


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## Blackwater Farm (Feb 23, 2011)

I LOVE that last photo! Beautifully in step! Isnt it wonderful to live in the south? Love the weather we have been having!


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## keely2682 (Feb 24, 2011)

> I kept staring at those reins as something seemed wrong there. It's hard to tell exactly how you have them run but in the second photo it appears you have the coupling rein through the opposite horse's neck terret? My understanding is that if they run through any neck terret at all it should be through the horse whose bit it is attached to to ensure that the pull is more backwards than lateral. The way you have it looks complicated and the reins seem to come up the middle between the horses instead of along the outside of each horse as they should.


Sometimes while training I have been using a joiner ring on the inside rein on both horses between the bit and the terret. In the picture you are looking at, one horse is pulling harder on me so the reins are shifted. Also the reins are close together because I am holding them in one hand and tsking a picture with the other





I can post a picture of this ring.



> I would also lock down the evener bar the singletrees are on as your pair is green and eveners can cause problems when the pair first starts forward. It looks like it's permanently canted so the lefthand horse is forward and if that's not a visual illusion it needs to be fixed.


good idea. i should have done that to start with. i've found that the bar usually evens out when i get the boys pulling together. I often have to push Cali up and hold Lightening back. They should get better.

I'm surprized that you didn't notice Lightening's breeching tied to the team pole in the first picture. In spite of years as a driving horse, he feels that i hooked him to a scarey, horse-eating pole. I had him tied to it temporarily to keep him straight. He seems to have gotten over the problem now at least.

Any other critiques?

I'm really unsure of what I'm doing on this. The first time I have ever driven a team was Saturday with my boys who don't know what they are doing either.

I have seem some teams drive with a bar in front of them perpendicular to the team pole. What is this? does it help? Should I have 1?

I am also not sure how to keep the slack out of the traces when stopping. I am assuming part of my problem is the light harness and side holdbacks on my breeching. Does anyone have an idea of how to fix this?


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## Make A Wish Miniatures (Feb 24, 2011)

Keely,your boys look great. I guess we will see you at Nationals this year.!


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## Al B (Feb 24, 2011)

What Leia is saying is that both the draft rein and the crossover rein should go thru the terrets on the same saddle. Then the crossover rein goes over to the other horse. You should use a rein ring and remember to place it perpendicular to the horses. It's tradition.


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## keely2682 (Feb 25, 2011)

Al, do you have a picture or illustration?


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## Al B (Feb 25, 2011)

Check out some of these pictures and you should be able to see it.

Pair webpage

Click on pairs+photos.

You do have a nice looking pair. Now you need 2 more.


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## dancer31501 (Feb 25, 2011)

Keely,

Here are some pic i hope they help you with the reins. I also have a lot of pair pictures on my facebook Amanda Cervini.






Not sure you can see it here there may be too many reins





















Hope that helps you and i do really like your pair!!!


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## Peggy Porter (Feb 25, 2011)

Al B said:


> Check out some of these pictures and you should be able to see it.
> 
> Pair webpage
> 
> Click on pairs+photos.



Al- THANK YOU!!!! I can't tell you how many times I have been to driving pairs and not seen the pairs + photos designation (only looked at the top banner pages, I guess!) There are some really helpful photos there!! The rein ring is visible in several photos, and I can definitely see the benefit of having it. I have a mismatched pair of VSEs (two inches size difference, as well as body type difference, and color difference) that I am hoping to get hitched together this year; both have driven extensively single. The few times I have ground driven them together, they seem to adjust to each other strides very well, so I have hope that we can have FUN together. I will be referring back to these photos a lot, I am sure!


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 25, 2011)

It looks to me like what you have done is run the inside coupling reins through the same horses terret and then buckled to the long outside rein on the opposite horse. The coupling reins would ordinarily be run through a coupling ring before the terrets or between the horses necks and then through the inside terret on the opposite horse and buckle onto the long outside rein. The way you have done it helps somewhat with the sideways pull that a horse isn't really used to but could account for why your left hand horse is pulling away from the pole or poling off because it is shortening his inside rein too much or exerting more pressure than you realize due to the pulley effect of going through his own terret. _Please excuse my funky horses, it's just a quick sketch _










PS Your boys look great together and I think you have a nice team coming!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 26, 2011)

I tried to reply to this twice on Thursday but the computer kept eating my reply.



So frustrating!



Al B said:


> What Leia is saying is that both the draft rein and the crossover rein should go thru the terrets on the same saddle. Then the crossover rein goes over to the other horse.


Lori gave you an excellent diagram of pair reins.




When harnessing up you'll run the draught rein (the outside one) through the outside saddle terret, the neck terret if you have one, then down to the bit. The coupling rein should be run through the inside saddle terret, possibly through the inside neck terret, and then hung off the throatlatch or cavesson until hitching. I still need to discuss the issue with more experienced pair drivers and see if we need to use the inside neck terret with minis. With big horses it can take up some of that "slop" from miles of rein up there but it's such a short distance with minis I'm not sure it's necessary. It also might put more of a lateral pull on the other horse's bit than necessary whereas running it straight back to the saddle terret would spare some of the leverage effects and make the pull more rearward.

Anyway, once both horses are harnessed and have their reins secured this way, lead them to the pole and buckle each coupling rein to the other horse's inside bit ring. You can use a coupling ring at this point and it helps keep the reins from getting caught on the pole end and such but I know some people who drive without them. I've never discussed it with those drivers but I assume they simply never felt the need to add it. That's another thing I need to learn more about but with your bigger horses it might be a nice addition as they've got more loose rein up there.

So it's reins, pole strap, outside trace, inside trace...hitched. Voila! With a single horse it takes much longer to hitch than to harness usually between wrap straps, breeching holdbacks, kick straps, traces, etc. but with a pair most of your time is spent harnessing the two horses. Once you're at the carriage it should be a fast buckle, buckle, snap-snap-snap-snap-snap-snap and you're done. Yay, pairs! That's good as with two horses there's twice the chance that somebody will act up so even with a header (which you really should have anytime you're working with multiples) the faster you can put them to and get on the carriage, the safer you are.

Remember- "Control before Power." Get those reins done up before hitching them to the carriage! Then the pole straps so they can steer and stop the carriage if they bolt, then the outside trace so they can't swing away from the pole, then the inside trace. There's a reason for everything in pair driving, just as there is for singles.



keely2682 said:


> Any other critiques?I'm really unsure of what I'm doing on this. The first time I have ever driven a team was Saturday with my boys who don't know what they are doing either.


I'd be doing some more reading if for some reason you can't get your hands on an experienced carriage driving instructor for starting the boys. I've read everything I can get my hands on (which believe me is a LOT



), attended at least three in-depth "Harnessing Multiples" clinics over the years, driven a few borrowed pairs, taken lessons with pairs, and still had about a zillion questions the first time I was faced with putting one together myself. I can't imagine how much I'm going to learn I don't know when starting my own!





Heike Bean's "Carriage Driving: A Logical Approach through Dressage Training" has a good chapter on pairs that answers some of your questions on equipment. Sallie Walrond is another good one to read, as is Max Pape's "The Art of Driving" and the british picture guide "Putting to a Pair." I'd also read the "Pair Driving 101-104" articles by Hardy Zantke on the Driving Pairs website.



keely2682 said:


> I've found that the bar usually evens out when i get the boys pulling together. I often have to push Cali up and hold Lightening back. They should get better.


I'd focus on encouraging the laggard as forward movement solves just about every problem with multiples.



keely2682 said:


> I have seem some teams drive with a bar in front of them perpendicular to the team pole. What is this? does it help? Should I have 1?


That is called the yoke and it has some advantages relative to bending and staying straight between the traces. Heike Bean's got quite a bit on it in her chapter on pair driving. I'm not sure if you could retrofit your team pole with one; I do know that using a pole without it is a perfectly acceptable option.



keely2682 said:


> I am also not sure how to keep the slack out of the traces when stopping. I am assuming part of my problem is the light harness and side holdbacks on my breeching. Does anyone have an idea of how to fix this?


What do you mean? Traces are generally supposed to go slack when you stop as the breeching should be taking the load. Are they drooping too far down? In that case you'd use trace carriers. If your breeching isn't engaging soon enough you'd tighten the side holdbacks, and if the breeching is sufficiently tight but the carriage is riding too far up before stopping you need to tighten your pole straps and let out your traces to move the horses further up towards the end of the pole.

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 26, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> The coupling rein should be run through the inside saddle terret, possibly through the inside neck terret, and then hung off the throatlatch or cavesson until hitching. I still need to discuss the issue with more experienced pair drivers and see if we need to use the inside neck terret with minis. With big horses it can take up some of that "slop" from miles of rein up there but it's such a short distance with minis I'm not sure it's necessary. It also might put more of a lateral pull on the other horse's bit than necessary whereas running it straight back to the saddle terret would spare some of the leverage effects and make the pull more rearward.
> 
> Leia


With most Minis I find that their necks are just too short to make running the rein through a neck terret sensible - puts too much pulley effect into play because of the angle created. A horse that has been trained singly will quite often find that too much of a sideways or lateral pull and will tend to pole off whereas going straight back to the terret on the saddle is somewhat better.


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## hairicane (Feb 28, 2011)

Congrats on getting the boys going together!! I know this has been a long time goal. Cant wait to actually see them driving together.


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## keely2682 (Feb 28, 2011)

I will bring them over to see you, Jen. You are welcome to drive them once I get the kinks worked out. ;-)


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## CZP1 (Feb 28, 2011)

What a great looking pair!


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## keely2682 (Mar 1, 2011)

i think i'll be doing a lot of reading:



> Heike Bean's "Carriage Driving: A Logical Approach through Dressage Training" has a good chapter on pairs that answers some of your questions on equipment. Sallie Walrond is another good one to read, as is Max Pape's "The Art of Driving" and the british picture guide "Putting to a Pair." I'd also read the "Pair Driving 101-104" articles by Hardy Zantke on the Driving Pairs website.


in amanda's pictures, i see a brass crab on the end of the pole with the pair in the arena

i have one of those that came with my carriage but is not on my pole-

should i start using it?

instead of hooking to the giant footman loop under my pole?

or should i order a neck yoke?

i did read that neck yokes were for more casual vehicles?

would it be appropriate on mine?

if so do i order a slide on one or a bolt through one?

also i think i finally have my reins hooked correctly

THANK YOU ALL


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 2, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> i think i'll be doing a lot of reading:
> 
> in amanda's pictures, i see a brass crab on the end of the pole with the pair in the arena
> 
> ...


The decision to use a crab or yoke or not depends on your pole. If you are using a drop pole you must have something up front there to hold the pole up. Using a yoke allows you to place the horses where you want so that they aren't pulled towards the pole. You need to be sure that it is the right length and set properly for your horses to keep them centered where you want them. In Amanda's photos you can see that using the crab on the end of the pole does pull the horses slightly in towards the pole although she has them set as well as she can with that arrangement - they need to be fairly snug. The yoke also acts as an evener making turns a little easier on the horses. You can't use a yoke with a stiff pole because it moves up and down with the carriage and the yoke would jerk on the horses constantly.


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## keely2682 (Mar 2, 2011)

how do i know what kind of pole i have? could you tell by a picture?


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 2, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> how do i know what kind of pole i have? could you tell by a picture?


A drop pole can be dropped to the ground, can move up and down while the carriage isn't moving and the horses hold it up at the front by the yoke. A fixed pole can't move up and down independant of the carriage and you use pole straps to attach to it. There are also spring loaded poles that you quite often see on combined driving vehicles that are fixed but set on a spring to allow them to move up and down independant of the carriage movement. You can use either a yoke to carry it or or pole straps to attach to it.


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 2, 2011)

After looking at your photos again I see what Leia was talking about earlier when she said your eveners were permanently canted. I looked at the eveners then but not the crossbar they are set on. It IS the crossbar that should be permanently fixed in position and it does appear that it is not perpendicular to the pole but rather on a slight angle forwards on the left side. You need to loosen the bolt and straighten it out then tighten it down again - it should be at a 90 degree angle to the pole. Your eveners then can act correctly to take up the slack on turns and it will help keep your boys even.


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## keely2682 (Mar 2, 2011)

i think i have a drop pole

so i can use either a yoke or my crab?

i did read that yokes were only on less formal vehicles

does this matter?

i will check the angle of the crossbar and eveners and fix it if necessary

i think in the pictures it was just lightning pulling harder


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 2, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> After looking at your photos again I see what Leia was talking about earlier when she said your eveners were permanently canted. I looked at the eveners then but not the crossbar they are set on. It IS the crossbar that should be permanently fixed in position and it does appear that it is not perpendicular to the pole but rather on a slight angle forwards on the left side. You need to loosen the bolt and straighten it out then tighten it down again - it should be at a 90 degree angle to the pole. Your eveners then can act correctly to take up the slack on turns and it will help keep your boys even.


Can you define "evener" for me?




Either I'm using the term wrong or misunderstanding how you're using it. The books I have use that term to indicate a moving crossbar that the singletrees mount on so not only do the singletrees themselves swivel, but so does the crossbar they mount on. This gives a large amount of play which can cause trouble for a green team as they first start the carriage. The purpose as I understood it was so that a horse who lagged back was still made to pull his fair share. If a carriage was equipped with an evener (singular) they recommended you lock it down via the same sort of strap arrangement that limits the movement of the singletree on a single horse vehicle.



keely2682 said:


> i think i have a drop poleso i can use either a yoke or my crab?
> 
> i did read that yokes were only on less formal vehicles
> 
> ...


I'm hoping Myrna will chime in on how appropriate it is. That is where I get into strange uncharted waters and out of my depth!



I have the books for that sort of thing but am just learning about four-wheel carriages and their appropriate turnouts. I know a fair amount about harnessing a pair but not the fine points of how far away to attach them from the pole, how to fix pulling or personality problems by adjusting the coupling reins, and all the technical stuff about pole assemblies. I'm so happy to be a student again!





I do believe however that if your crosspole were properly fixed, the only sign of Lightning pulling harder would have been the traces on your other horse being slightly slack. That's what you watch for so one horse doesn't get away with doing less work. If you see traces going slack, you get after that horse until he gets back into draught.

Leia


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## keely2682 (Mar 2, 2011)

> You can't use a yoke with a stiff pole because it moves up and down with the carriage and the yoke would jerk on the horses constantly.


a 2 wheeled vehicle would always have a stiff pole?

so then because a 2 wheeled vehicle - cart or chariot- should not be used with neck yokes?

on a chariot bouncing might matter less in a smooth arena?

do neck yokes make it easier to stop a carriage or affect breeching?


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## RhineStone (Mar 2, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I'm hoping Myrna will chime in on how appropriate it is.


Why do you think I have been so quiet on this topic?! I haven't put a pair together in years!



We just don't have anything that will go together side by side right now, so my learning desire just isn't there. That, and around here, mini pairs have been poo-pooed in the past by the bigger horse drivers. They think that the mini pairs are "in the way" in the show ring.



It's also hard to get a mini pair vehicle that looks "appropriate" for the carriage ring. A lot of them look too big for the horses and too small for the drivers. Tandem is much harder to drive, but much easier to get to "look right". So needless to say, I haven't been a student of pairs, and probably won't until I have the desire and the horses. The biggest thing I know about a pair is don't try to drive one by yourself!

I will say that the Runabout the OP is using is considered a Country vehicle. Not formal at all, but more of a "get to town" vehicle, like a Meadowbrook. So the turnout would definitely not be formal, i.e. top hats and ladies hats with veils. etc.

Again, I don't know a lot of pairs, but I am not fond of a bar in front of minis. There just isn't a whole lot of room between their necks and their legs, and I seem to remember that we had issues with the minis bumping their legs on the bar in front of them. So if I had a choice to use a crab, I would.

I did learn this year that only owner/drivers use pole chains instead of pole straps, because pole chains are really a big pain to clean, but he didn't care because he had "staff".





Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 2, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> a 2 wheeled vehicle would always have a stiff pole?so then because a 2 wheeled vehicle - cart or chariot- should not be used with neck yokes?
> 
> on a chariot bouncing might matter less in a smooth arena?
> 
> do neck yokes make it easier to stop a carriage or affect breeching?


I would think that a pole on a two wheel vehicle would count as a drop pole since by definition it rests on the ground when not supported by the horses. I've been pondering this issue myself for my own future chariot and have come to no firm answers but I think you'd need to have a yoke. What I'm wondering is if that yoke should be able to swivel or if, in the case of a chariot, that would be a disaster because it would remove any ability for the horses to "hold the vehicle down" to a certain extent in turns. I'm not sure I explained that clearly but I'm picturing the chariot overbalancing and instead of the pole being held in a certain orientation because it's fixed at a 90 degree angle to the yoke, it free-spins up front and the chariot overturns while the horses and the yoke remain level. I don't know if that would happen, that's just what I was concerned about!

There will be less rattling in an arena compared to a rough field, but I'd think the horses would do a fine job of jostling each other. Perhaps it would encourage them to get in stride?





I'd love to do as the one Champion gentleman has done and design a sort of curricle or cape cart type arrangement for my chariot based on the historical neck yoke harness (not the same "yoke" we're talking about here, more like the type of "yoke" used on oxen over the back of the neck) but I don't think I can afford a complete new set of custom harness for one class I might show in once or twice in my life.



Hence my decision to go with a modern neck yoke on my pole. What I don't know yet is the features I'll be designing it with.

As for how pole straps affect breeching and braking versus using a yoke arrangement, I'm not really sure. I believe the horses will have a tendency to lean away from the pole in response to the lateral pressure but I don't know how often that happens or if you can fix it by adjusting something. Sorry! When I find out I'll let you know.



RhineStone said:


> I will say that the Runabout the OP is using is considered a Country vehicle. Not formal at all, but more of a "get to town" vehicle, like a Meadowbrook. So the turnout would definitely not be formal, i.e. top hats and ladies hats with veils. etc.


See? I didn't even know the correct name of the vehicle never mind if it was formal or not!







RhineStone said:


> Again, I don't know a lot of pairs, but I am not fond of a bar in front of minis. There just isn't a whole lot of room between their necks and their legs, and I seem to remember that we had issues with the minis bumping their legs on the bar in front of them.


You do have a point there.

Leia


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## Katiean (Mar 2, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> my boys' first time hooked up together


I love your buggy! Who makes it?


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## keely2682 (Mar 2, 2011)

John pavlick of lecanto florida


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 2, 2011)

I think probably the greatest danger when using a neck yoke with Minis is that the reins can fairly easily get caught around the ends of the yoke because their necks are short. You would have to have the yoke so far out in front of them to prevent that, that it would pull too much on the horses necks. You do need to keep a yoke up high and close to their chests to make it work best.

It is the evener on Keely's carriage that is out of kilter. I would tighten it down and let the singletrees become the eveners was what I was trying to say. With green horses that are first put to as a pair that's the best way to do it and mine is permanently in that position because I use it so rarely - I am no expert on pairs as there isn't a lot of call for it in the show ring and I don't have enough time for pairs in carriage driving.

Having never driven a chariot I have no idea what would work best for it. I would love to give it a go someday though



I have driven a stone boat which is sort of the same thing only a LOT slower



Not NEARLY so exciting but a great training aid.

I know it's almost impossible to prevent the horses poling off completely when using pole straps versus a yoke but you can definitely make pole straps work the best they can by adjusting them to be snug but not tight as you see in Amanda's photos.

Out of curiosity if you aren't using a crab and you aren't using a yoke how do you have the pole held up?


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## keely2682 (Mar 3, 2011)

there is a large brass footman's loop type thing (4-6" long) under my pole

i have my pole straps connected to that, since i assumed that was its puropse

maybe it is designed to connect a neck yoke to?

neck yokes-

if i got one do i want bolt through or slide on ring designed one?


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## keely2682 (Mar 3, 2011)

> I will say that the Runabout the OP is using is considered a Country vehicle. Not formal at all, but more of a "get to town" vehicle, like a Meadowbrook. So the turnout would definitely not be formal, i.e. top hats and ladies hats with veils. etc.


i do have a fringed surrey top with this vehicle

does that make it more or less formal?

(picture posted with permission)






the lady i bought it from was criticized in ADS pleasure shows for turnout

she had sportier beta/stainless harnesses with shaped collars and holdbacks underneath instead of side

the judges told her she needed finer harnesses with the vehicle

can i use draft collars with this vehicle?


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## keely2682 (Mar 3, 2011)

to me the vehicle appears to be a doctors buggy

BUT it came with a fringed surrey top instead of a bowed buggy top

what is it?


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## RhineStone (Mar 3, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> i do have a fringed surrey top with this vehicle
> 
> does that make it more or less formal?
> 
> ...


I would not say the fringed top makes it more formal. The formality of the vehicle is more or less dictated by its original intended use. A Runabout is still a family, get-to-town vehicle, even if it has a top.

The term "Doctor's Buggy" is about the most incorrectly used term in the carriage community. A true Doctor's Buggy has closed in sides on the top that is more protective than other vehicles. Here is a page out of a Carriage Association of America ID booklet. You can see what a Drs. Buggy is. Without the top, Keely's vehicle is a Runabout. With the top, I guess I don't know what to call it, because it is not a folding top. Probably End-Spring Buggy is probably the closest term.






In terms of what harness to use, you can use a full collared harness with this vehicle, and actually I am guessing it is heavy enough to warrant full collars, especially if the draft is low. There are many different styles of collars, and I know what you are saying when you use the term "draft collar", but that really isn't what you want. A draft collar is more of a work collar like you would use to plow the field. A draft show collar, like a scotch collar, is too much for this vehicle. You want a Buggy collar.

I think what the judges were saying is that the vehicle needed more of a traditional carriage-type harness instead of a CDE-style harness. A sporty beta harness won't show well in a ADS pleasure show. I would not use a Fine Harness like you see in the breed show ring with this vehicle. It is WAY too heavy for that, and you could bust the harness.

Myrna


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## keely2682 (Mar 3, 2011)

the carriage is between 200 and 300lbs- 2 people can easily lift it into a truck

it seems heavy for 1 horse but 2 have no problem pulling it even with breastcollars

if i use 1 horse i use my freedom collar

with 2 horses i use straight show breastcollars

my boys are 37.5" and well over 400 lbs each so not little minis

I'm currently using "show harnesses" from chimacum tack

they are a finer version of their sport harness but not as fine as a lutke

i think it has a 4" wide treed saddles and 1.5" wide traces

breast collars are straight with 2 spots for pole strap attachment so i can swap horses without swapping collars

harnesses have breeching with side holdbacks

they are beta with brass trim


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## keely2682 (Mar 3, 2011)

> . A draft collar is more of a work collar like you would use to plow the field. A draft show collar, like a scotch collar, is too much for this vehicle. You want a Buggy collar.


would i use a harness with my freedom collar with this carraige?

do you have pictures of a buggy collar?

does it have full hames?

would one work for draft harness class at AMHR Nationals?

so not a draft parade harness with the spots ect?

what type of harness would i use a collar with?


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## RhineStone (Mar 3, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> would i use a harness with my freedom collar with this carraige? You can.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## keely2682 (Mar 3, 2011)

i saw the pictures on smuckers

so i can just buy collar and hames to use with the rest of my existing harness?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 3, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> the carriage is between 200 and 300lbs- 2 people can easily lift it into a truck


Keely, is that with the top? I thought when you bought it you told me it was about 150lbs.



keely2682 said:


> do you have pictures of a buggy collar?does it have full hames?
> 
> would one work for draft harness class at AMHR Nationals?


Work-style draft collars would be something like this:






Where a(n ugly, mini-sized) buggy collar is like this:






I'm going to disagree with Myrna about full hames as I believe at least in mini parlance that refers to hames that extend up over the collar and end in those round balls and no, a buggy collar should not have those.

I would personally not use a buggy collar for the draft harness class as they aren't really what is being looked for. They're meant for buggies, not draft work. You want a work-style collar or a Scotch collar with full hames for that class and yes, a spotted harness.



keely2682 said:


> so not a draft parade harness with the spots ect?


Lord no. Totally inappropriate for this carriage. Those should be used with buckboards or commercial wagons.



keely2682 said:


> what type of harness would i use a collar with?





keely2682 said:


> so i can just buy collar and hames to use with the rest of my existing harness?


Yes, in the case of a buggy collar with light or carriage harness. That sort of collar is actually legal in Country Pleasure classes if you read the rules- they just don't allow full hames or draft collars.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Mar 3, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I'm going to disagree with Myrna about full hames as I believe at least in mini parlance that refers to hames that extend up over the collar and end in those round balls and no, a buggy collar should not have those.


Oh, no. Leia's right. Don't use hames with balls.



Use buggy hames.



hobbyhorse23 said:


> I would personally not use a buggy collar for the draft harness class as they aren't really what is being looked for. They're meant for buggies, not draft work. You want a work-style collar or a Scotch collar with full hames for that class and yes, a spotted harness.


So what type of vehicles are used for the mini draft class?







hobbyhorse23 said:


> Those should be used with buckboards or commercial wagons.


On another educational moment, "buckboards" are another highly misused carriage word. Most people think of them like a hitch wagon, with a seat in the front and a box in the back. Actually, a buckboard refers to a four-wheeled carriage with a seat and no springs, just boards laid front to back from axle to axle. The flex of the boards created the "suspension" (no matter how bad that really was). When going over a bump, the boards actually "bucked". There is a drawing of a buckboard buggy in the CAA thing I posted.

Yes, you can buy collars and hames to use with existing harness, but remember you will also have your long tugs on the hames, the hame straps, false martingales, etc.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 3, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> So what type of vehicles are used for the mini draft class?


From what I've seen, mostly hitch wagons like you'd see with draft horses and occasionally the more western style I was calling a "buckboard."



RhineStone said:


> On another educational moment, "buckboards" are another highly misused carriage word. Most people think of them like a hitch wagon, with a seat in the front and a box in the back. Actually, a buckboard refers to a four-wheeled carriage with a seat and no springs, just boards laid front to back from axle to axle. The flex of the boards created the "suspension" (no matter how bad that really was). When going over a bump, the boards actually "bucked". There is a drawing of a buckboard buggy in the CAA thing I posted.


Thanks! As I said, 4-wheeled carriages aren't my strong point yet.





Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 3, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> I think probably the greatest danger when using a neck yoke with Minis is that the reins can fairly easily get caught around the ends of the yoke because their necks are short. You would have to have the yoke so far out in front of them to prevent that, that it would pull too much on the horses necks. You do need to keep a yoke up high and close to their chests to make it work best.


I'd use the yoke but run the draught reins through correctly placed neck terrets to keep them up and have a coupling ring to keep the coupling reins from drooping. You've still got some risk but that's true with a single horse in shafts as well. I haven't had a problem since I started using the neck terrets.



MiLo Minis said:


> It is the evener on Keely's carriage that is out of kilter. I would tighten it down and let the singletrees become the eveners was what I was trying to say.


I felt like I wasn't using the right terms so I did some quick research last night to refresh my memory. Looks like there's the "splinter bar," which is a fixed bar the singletrees are mounted on, or you can have an evener or "doubletree" which is the same thing but attached so that it pivots just like the singletrees do. The warnings I had read were aimed at carriages that had doubletrees/eveners. It looks like Keely's cart has a splinterbar which has simply worked loose and is beginning to act like an evener. Time to find a way to reinforce it!

In the course of that research I also got a hint on the "how to design the front end of our chariots" debate.



Tom Ryder in his book "On the Box Seat" says "The crab pole-head is not satisfactory on an unsupported pole because the height of the pole will vary as the horses move closer or further apart." I hadn't thought about that but he's quite right- if your horses squeeze together on a turn the pole is going to dip down and dump you forward unless it is so well-balanced that your own weight behind the axle is enough to hold it up! So it sounds like we'd better go with a yoke or other fixed attachment. (I also figured out that I had the wrong idea about what a "crab" was- I thought it was the hook that allows attachment of leader bars. Oops!)



keely2682 said:


> neck yokes- if i got one do i want bolt through or slide on ring designed one?


No idea.



"On the Box Seat" says that if you have a carriage with a fixed pole, singletrees and a neck yoke then your yoke must be attached by a swiveling device as otherwise it could be wrenched off the end of the pole by the sometimes violent bouncing of the pole over rough ground. So it sounds like "drop pole = yoke ONLY, fixed pole = pole straps or swiveling, secured neck yoke, sprung pole = anything you want." I'm not sure I'm interpreting that right but that's what I'm getting so far.



RhineStone said:


> In terms of what harness to use, you can use a full collared harness with this vehicle, and actually I am guessing it is heavy enough to warrant full collars, especially if the draft is low.


I do notice that the draft is fairly high in this vehicle so I'd be reluctant to use neck collars.

Leia


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## susanne (Mar 3, 2011)

This is a most educational and enjoyable thread! I don't know if I'll ever drive a pair, but I love learning whether I ever use the knowledge gleaned or not!


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## keely2682 (Mar 3, 2011)

> I do notice that the draft is fairly high in this vehicle so I'd be reluctant to use neck collars


if not neck collars what do i use?

i was about to order some


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 3, 2011)

From what I can see through the fuzzies, what you have now is perfectly appropriate!

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 4, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I would not say the fringed top makes it more formal. The formality of the vehicle is more or less dictated by its original intended use. A Runabout is still a family, get-to-town vehicle, even if it has a top.
> 
> Without the top, Keely's vehicle is a Runabout. With the top, I guess I don't know what to call it, because it is not a folding top. Probably End-Spring Buggy is probably the closest term.]
> 
> ...


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 6, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> if not neck collars what do i use?
> 
> i was about to order some


The decision whether to use neck or breast collar is made by the type of draft on the vehicle. Breast collars are really only suitable for a straight line of draft where the traces go straight across parallel to the ground. A neck collar should be used for any draft that is angled where the traces drop from shoulder height lower towards the back. Straight draft only works well for lighter vehicles. It is easier for a horse to pull a heavier vehicle when it is "lifting" upwards in draft. It is possible to change the draft on a vehicle by moving the height of the singletree/s although this sometimes requires a bit of re-engineering on the front end of the vehicle. You should read Barb Lee's "Understanding Draft" - it explains everything really well with pictures and everything!


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## Crossbuck Farms (Mar 12, 2011)

Cute I do something similiar. But I plan to start both my teams as 4 in hand.


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