# Has anyone seen the recent pictures of Einstein?



## Contessa (Apr 4, 2011)

Since there are ongoing threads and comments about dwarfism, I would like to get people's opinions on this. New thread started on the dwarf forum with new pictures of Einstein. I can't get the pics over here so maybe someone else can. He still has the larger head he was born with but what I noticed right away was his definate roach back. As far as I know his owners are still calling him a non-dwarf. Thoughts on this?


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## Matt73 (Apr 4, 2011)

He was, obviously, very dwarfy looking at birth. It was frustrating for me to hear many saying that was just a normal tiny miniature horse. I'm interested to see updated pics of him...


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 4, 2011)

I never had any doubts that he was an obvious dwarf- I agree it is frustrating when the owners cannot see it but they seem nice people and hopefully they will come to realise he should not be bred. He will still make them a lovely and unusual pet, though.


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## miniwhinny (Apr 4, 2011)

Contessa said:


> Since there are ongoing threads and comments about dwarfism, I would like to get people's opinions on this. New thread started on the dwarf forum with new pictures of Einstein. I can't get the pics over here so maybe someone else can. He still has the larger head he was born with but what I noticed right away was his definate roach back. As far as I know his owners are still calling him a non-dwarf. Thoughts on this?


Do you have a link to the dwarf forum?


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## Contessa (Apr 4, 2011)

http://wwminis.forumup.us/viewtopic.php?t=6910&mforum=wwminis Try this link for the pictures, hope it works.


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## Reble (Apr 4, 2011)

I still say not dwarf


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree Reble


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## horsehug (Apr 4, 2011)

I wish I could remember where I saw a new and recent picture of him that looked really really good. I sure do not think he is a dwarf at all.

Maybe someone else saw it too and will post it.

Susan O.


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## chandab (Apr 4, 2011)

Here's a link to a more recent article, with a picture of him playing with a horse ball. Don't know how recent the picture is.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3491550/Tiniest-horse-is-having-a-ball.html


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=86368&pid=926940&st=0entry926940

I posted that link on another thread but thought it might do some good here too. Look at the pictures and John's response.

Einstein may be small and have conformational flaws but that does not mean dwarf.

--to clarify, I am well aware this is not Einstein. I am showing that there are too many people thinking small with conformational flaws automatically means dwarf when in fact they are not


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## Matt73 (Apr 4, 2011)

ohmt said:


> http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=86368&pid=926940&st=0entry926940
> 
> I posted that link on another thread but thought it might do some good here too. Look at the pictures and John's response.
> 
> Einstein may be small and have conformational flaws but that does not mean dwarf.


That's not Einstein...


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Yep, know that. I'm pointing out that small and conformationally flawed does not mean dwarf.


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## Riverdance (Apr 4, 2011)

ohmt said:


> http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=86368&pid=926940&st=0entry926940
> 
> I posted that link on another thread but thought it might do some good here too. Look at the pictures and John's response.
> 
> Einstein may be small and have conformational flaws but that does not mean dwarf.



Based upon what I read, that is not Einstein he is talking about. I too have never had any doubts that Einstein was a dwarf. Time will tell as he matures, but my guess is that he will grow long with short legs, be roached in the back, have trouble getting around and his head will be even bigger than his body, then it was in the baby photos.

Unfortunately I was not able to see any updated pictures of him on this forum, short of the ones of him falling in the snow. Can not tell there what he looks like.


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Posting some stuff from John's research:

"To answer fully your question I need to take into account all 4 possible types I have characterized so far, however there could be more types than these or one of these types could be a combination of two of the four types. Please keep that in mind.

Unfortunately, I do not have my reference pictures on a website so I cannot show them here, and they need to stay off of websites for now, until I can definitively state such differences.

The carriers of types 1 and 4 SOMETIMES show subtle features of a type 1 dwarf, i.e. extremely domed forehead, large prominant eyes, very exotic head overall. That being said however, it is NOT 100% true. In the carriers of types 1 and 4, height is extremely variable, bone structure and thickness extremely variable, length of neck extremely variable. I have samples of parents that produce a type 1 dwarf that really do not show signs in the head and are not very small in height, the only give away was pedigree. However other samples give all of the signs, head, off mouth (usually underbite), build, height, and pedigree.

To clarify 1 vs. 4, the type 1 is the type we see most often, the type 4 is the lethal type that does not go to term.

Carriers of types 2 and 3 so far have shown no signs of being carriers, all so far show extreme variation in height and conformation, the only commonality in structure of the parents so far are overall head structure. They are straight, slightly large for body size, very normal looking heads you would see on a regular horse and ARE NOT exotic. But, they are NOT a straight pony head, i.e. what most people refer to in the pony breed. These characteristics are very general visual differences and commonalities I have experienced and documented, and are not conformational facts describing the disease carriers. They are only observations so far that I see as commonalities with conditions producing a dwarf.

Type 2 dwarf is the type that looks like it has a normal body neck and a large plain or straight head, the dwarf just looks like it had it legs cut in half, in reality the upper leg bones are severely shortened, hips miss-shaped, and a large head. These are the bones and structures that I can tell so far are affected, though I do not have enough samples x-rayed and compared to make that definitive. Unfortunately, this is the type I have seen in the past most often used in breeding progams due to the fact that they still have a mostly normal life and reproductive viability.

Type 3 dwarf is the most severe type that is viable, they are extremely small usually, have severe spine (roachback) and leg deformities, usually severely shortened neck, and severely deformed head with off bite. This type is possibly a combination of types, i.e. inheritance of two different recessive dwarf genes due to the fact that the bodies are so severely deformed and variable it has been very difficult to find a consistent deformed type.

There are some concepts I need to explain about the inheritance and expression of recessive genes to qualify my answers. This is especially important involving carriers of recessive dwarf genes and other recessive deleterious genes, and determining, visually, carriers or non carriers and the problems in doing only that.

One concept is PENETRANCE of a recessive gene over a dominant gene in a population. For example how a recessive dwarf gene's characteristics can penetrate and express the condition over the dominant normal gene's characteristics over a large population. Visual example is a normal horse that is a recessive carrier of the type 1 dwarfism and shows some of the characteristics individually or in combinations, like a severely domed head, very large eyes, under bite, etc. The strict genetic definition is "the frequency, under given environmental conditions, with which a specific phenotype is expressed by those individuals with a specific genotype." So you would see variable PENETRANCE of this recessive gene in the Miniature population, which is what I believe is occuring.

Another concept is EXPRESSIVITY of a recessive gene in one animal. The strict definition is the degree to which an expressed gene produces its effects in an organism. So if you take the example of the situation I explained with Penetrance, you have a normal carrier of a type 1 recessive dwarf gene, and it shows some characteristics of possibly being a carrier, well EXPRESSIVITY is the how much effect is the dwarf gene having on the individual horse to overpower the dominant gene, i.e. slang terminology one might hear is "How dwarfy does the horse look?"

Now you also need to understand the difference of these terms and concepts regarding recessive genes when comparing them to co-dominant genes. A co-dominant diseased gene would ALWAYS be expressed in a carrier with its normal counterpart in equal amounts and NEVER be "hidden". A good example in some flowers is the color pink, it is not a one color but a combination of different colored cells, some are red and come are white, making the color look pink with the naked eye."

*Einstein does not fit into any of the types that have been identified. Now he may be a carrier of type 2 and 3 based on what John said he has researched but that's still a maybe *


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## Reble (Apr 4, 2011)

Here is a couple of more.. sometimes we do not take the best photo to promote our minis.. but he sure does not look dwarf


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## HGFarm (Apr 4, 2011)

I am still on the fence about this.... first of all, the markings on his head give it the appearance of being even longer than it is. Look at the actual length of his head compared to the length of his neck. Not that bad.

And I agree, conformational problems dont mean dwarf. His legs appear to be fairly correct and I dont see that his conformation has changed that much all along- some you can tell get 'shorter and fatter and longer' as they age- he appears to be staying about the same to me.


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## Katiean (Apr 4, 2011)

In the picture with the ball his neck LOOKS shorter than it should be. Now I know not all horses have that long hooky neck. Heavens knows none of my horses do. But there is a difference between a normal neck and a short DWARF neck. I still stand with my original (from his birth pictures) opinion that Einstein is a dwarf.


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## Jill (Apr 4, 2011)

I thought he was a dwarf when I first saw his baby pictures. He is very cute, though not what many experienced miniature horse people would strive to breed (for or to).


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## Riverdance (Apr 4, 2011)

Here is a youtube video of him when he was first born, note that they had to have special shoes made for him because he was not walking right. (dwarf), note that his head is much bigger than his body, plus I read somewhere that his bite has gone off. All indications of a dwarf.

Also, to say he is smaller than Thumbalina, when she is an adult horse and he is a foal, is incorrect. Wait till he is finished growing.

Many years ago I had a foal born that was very tiny and looked perfectly normal. Properly proportioned, nice head and a long slim neck to boot, for the first few months. Plus he had no trouble waling to begin with. But as he got older his tendons got tighter and soon he was not able to trot. By the time he was a year old, his body was very long, his legs were very short and his head and long slim neck were the same as they were when born. I spoke to John about him and it was confirmed that he was a minimal Dwarf, which,as I mentioned, is what I think this boy is.



Also, a side picture of Einstein when he was young. Notice the big head and long thick neck. Plus look how low he is in the back end.

http://washingtonexaminer.com/files/tmp/052010_einstein.jpg

Last, there are a couple of articles about Einstein turning 1, but no pictures of him as a yearling. they do say he is now 20" tall, no longer "the smallest horse in the World".


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## ruffian (Apr 4, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I was asked a few times why we are allowing a discussion and pictures about someone's horse on this forum.. the answer is simple..
> 
> Einstein was made Public Domain by the breeder & owner - They have put him out there as a public figure that generates comments. We are also not using his image to sell anything..
> 
> ...


Thanks Mary Lou - I wondered why folks were posting photos of a horse they do not own. Recognizing that he is "Public Domain" now, I for one still do not see why anyone brought this up if they don't own him? IMO Our job as Miniature Horse enthuastiasts is to promote and improve the true quality miniature horse. Let's get the GOOD examples of Miniature horses out in the mainstream. I'm sending photos of MY horses (conformationally correct thank you!) To OPRAH!!!!


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## miniwhinny (Apr 4, 2011)

It's very hard to tell from one of two pictures. It's easier in a video because you can freeze the frames. I do see a roached back, hope he doesn't suffer with that later in life.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=naqsceQlX84&


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## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 4, 2011)

After seeing that last video, I am 100% convinced he is a dwarf.


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## Contessa (Apr 4, 2011)

Miniwhinny thanks so much for getting that youtube video on here. I tried but I couldn't get it.


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## HGFarm (Apr 4, 2011)

I agree, that last one really showed how bad his back is...


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

i say dwarf. he has a severely roached back, his head looks longer than his neck, his head looks longer than his front legs and for all we know he could have bad teeth and need corrective farrier work, lord knows his owners arent telling us if he does need it






this whole situation is very irritating to me. why is it dwarfs are promoted on tv but 'normal' minis arent?

***********************


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## MountainMeadows (Apr 4, 2011)

He certainly looks like a dwarf to me BUT people, let's look at the good side of this situation --- he is obviously very much loved, and being very well taken care of. From the looks of things, he will have all the proper care that he will need to live a comfortable life, for as long as that may be.

It could be so very different - thank God that he ended up in the home that he did, where he will bring endless hours of joy to his owners and in turn be given a wonderful life. I only hope that when the time comes (and sadly it usually comes early with dwarfs) that his owner has the support that she needs to end his life in a humane, pain-free way. I am not meaning to sound gloomy, but we all know that the life expectancy of dwarves is much less than most minis - and given that they are so smart and so quickly can worm their way into your heart, it is going to be a very difficult decision for his owner to make.

Many hugs go out to her for opening her heart and her home to little Einstein.


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## Riverdance (Apr 4, 2011)

MountainMeadows said:


> He certainly looks like a dwarf to me BUT people, let's look at the good side of this situation --- he is obviously very much loved, and being very well taken care of. From the looks of things, he will have all the proper care that he will need to live a comfortable life, for as long as that may be.
> 
> It could be so very different - thank God that he ended up in the home that he did, where he will bring endless hours of joy to his owners and in turn be given a wonderful life. I only hope that when the time comes (and sadly it usually comes early with dwarfs) that his owner has the support that she needs to end his life in a humane, pain-free way. I am not meaning to sound gloomy, but we all know that the life expectancy of dwarves is much less than most minis - and given that they are so smart and so quickly can worm their way into your heart, it is going to be a very difficult decision for his owner to make.
> 
> Many hugs go out to her for opening her heart and her home to little Einstein.



Stacie,

While he may have a good home, they are promoting the heck out of him and traveling around the country, like poor Thumbalina. They are the ones who have contacted every news station, tv show and anyone else they could, to let the public know that they have him. They are also giving the public a really POOR idea of what a true, "completely proportional" Mini should look like.

I have Marbles, another very rare miniature, but I have not contacted every news program, Ophra or Guinness World Records. I want Marbles to live a normal horse life. Not take her out to make money on her.


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## miniwhinny (Apr 4, 2011)

MountainMeadows said:


> He certainly looks like a dwarf to me BUT people, let's look at the good side of this situation --- he is obviously very much loved, and being very well taken care of. From the looks of things, he will have all the proper care that he will need to live a comfortable life, for as long as that may be.
> 
> It could be so very different - thank God that he ended up in the home that he did, where he will bring endless hours of joy to his owners and in turn be given a wonderful life. I only hope that when the time comes (and sadly it usually comes early with dwarfs) that his owner has the support that she needs to end his life in a humane, pain-free way. I am not meaning to sound gloomy, but we all know that the life expectancy of dwarves is much less than most minis - and given that they are so smart and so quickly can worm their way into your heart, it is going to be a very difficult decision for his owner to make.
> 
> Many hugs go out to her for opening her heart and her home to little Einstein.


I think this is great also but if you look at his other youtube vids they say they were going to geld him but now are not, they are keeping him a stallion. I'm not saying he is or isn't a dwarf...I don't have enough experience to know but even if he's not IMO he's not something I would keep as a stallion.


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## AnnaC (Apr 4, 2011)

Here in the UK the Daily Mail Newspaper published a picture of him about a week ago - standing sideways saying hello to a big horse (the large horse's head was lowered as they were greeting each other, its body was not in the picture) This gave a pretty good side view of Einstein and it looked a recent one. My immediate reaction on turning the page and seeing the picture was one of sadness as, to me, his dwarf characteristics had become even more apparent.

I too feel sorry for the little chap as, although I know he will be looked after, I also feel he is missing out on simply being a normal little horse - racing around a pasture with other small horsey companions, enjoying life and interacting with others of his own kind, bless him.

Anna


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## Riverdance (Apr 4, 2011)

> Here in the UK the Daily Mail Newspaper published a picture of him about a week ago - standing sideways saying hello to a big horse (the large horse's head was lowered as they were greeting each other, its body was not in the picture) This gave a pretty good side view of Einstein and it looked a recent one.


The picture you are referring to was taken last year. There are no pictures taken of him yet this year. It will be interesting to see if the post any updated pictures.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> I think this is great also but if you look at his other youtube vids they say they were going to geld him but now are not, they are keeping him a stallion. I'm not saying he is or isn't a dwarf...I don't have enough experience to know but even if he's not IMO he's not something I would keep as a stallion.



i think they are only keeping him a stallion because they are going for the world record of 'smallest stallion in the world'. hence the name of Einsteins website, smalleststallion.com. he wouldnt make any record if he was a gelding. i sincerely hope they dont breed him or stud him out. i also hope they realize what they are getting into, from what i've seen they treat him like a baby instead of a horse, they even have a harness for him instead of a halter.

i know he's small, but he's still a horse that needs dicipline and time to be a horse, not a celebrity





also, if they want him to have a horse companion so badly they could just get a 30" or under gelding. instead they have to make a book about it, more publicity





*Edited to fix spelling mistakes, as usual


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## Sandy B (Apr 4, 2011)

I find the topics of dwarfs fascinating since we are relatively new in the mini horse world. I have seen obvious pictures of dwarfs and have seen a couple in person. However I have seen a "fine line" in what some of you breeders are saying is conformationally correct and then what is listed as "dwarf characteristics" at the different levels. Please help me understand this all. When talking about dwarfs being large headed or large dome shaped heads & large eyes to the point of being very exotic looking- I see many many pictures of show breeders posting pictures of foals with huge foreheads and eyes. It is almost gross looking. So is this a dwarf trait? I see many many minis looking like miniature Arabians, long fine legs and light in the hip that are winning at halter- is this the "ideal" mini confirmation? I see breeders faulting minis that look like mini quarter horses- stocky, bigger hip, a bit shorter legged with bigger bone, heads not as refined. Is this type of mini a dwarf or conformationally challenged? I thought minis were to resemble several different breeds of larger horses since they are miniature horses. I mean, I agree that roach backs, bad bites, huge heads with no necks and long bodies and no legs scream dwarf, but who is to say that the Arabian type mini is more desirable than a stock type or qtr horse looking mini?

I have bred and shown quarter horses for years and have seen my fair share of conformational problems in foals. Some were prone to such problems due to genetics and others was just cruddy luck. Those with bad legs could mostly be fixed with frequent proper hoof care of glue shoes or even surgery to release tight tendons. This is not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue. It happens. So does every mini that is born that had contracted tendons or crooked limbs considered a dwarf? What about neck length? Have you ever looked at full size horses and seen the difference in their necks? Does a short neck automatically mean dwarf?

Finally, is there a test that can be run on breeding stock to test for dwarfism? I want to do my part. We have more stock type looking minis, which we prefer. They are all pretty, and correct with the exception of one aged mare with a short neck and none have Arabian dished heads, but none have ugly heads and all bites are correct. I suppose some of you would say they are conformationally poor due to looking like mini quarter horses, but we like them.


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## AnnaC (Apr 4, 2011)

Oooop's my mistake - re the Daily Mail Picture - but if I remember correctly they did say it was recent! (I should know better than to believe what I read in the paper LOL!) I would love to see a really up to date sideways picture of him - is it my imagination, or on the Tube video did he seem to be moving strangely/almost sideways with his hindend? Must go and have another look!

Anna


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

AnnaC said:


> Oooop's my mistake - re the Daily Mail Picture - but if I remember correctly they did say it was recent! (I should know better than to believe what I read in the paper LOL!) I would love to see a really up to date sideways picture of him - is it my imagination, or on the Tube video did he seem to be moving strangely/almost sideways with his hindend? Must go and have another look!
> 
> Anna



i noticed that too Anna, he seems a bit unsteady when he's moving.


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## AnnaC (Apr 4, 2011)

Sandy, I'm sure those with a lot more experience of dwarfism will answer your questions, but I just wanted to say that I also favour the more 'stocky, but proportioned' minis - my older original mares are all 'stocky', their daughter's being just a tad lighter, then we have a stallion who 'refines' things just a little again. But I do like my girls to have 'substance' and would be delighted if the girls were born that way and the boys were born more refined so as to be more suitable for the show ring - trouble is I never know which sex I will get until I can get a 'peek' at birth, and I cant send it back if it is not quite what I ordered LOL! So I continue to breed what I like and hope that others will like them too - well at least the boys, as all the girls mostly stay here for the rest of their lives, breeding or not.

Anna


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## ohmt (Apr 4, 2011)

Sandy-there is a whole bunch of information on the dwarfism forum right below the back porch that should answer most of your questions. It is very interesting and informative. There are no tests but hopefully will be very soon.


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## Matt73 (Apr 4, 2011)

"Those with bad legs could mostly be fixed with frequent proper hoof care of glue shoes or even surgery to release tight tendons. This is not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue."

This statement is fallacious. More correctly, most/many dwarves _do_ have leg problems. _*But*_, not all leg problems are caused by dwarfism. Bad legs can be a growth issue, too...or may not be. There are several causes of bad legs/hooves. Some can be improved with a great farrier and/or vet, and some can't.


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## miniwhinny (Apr 4, 2011)

Molly said:


> i noticed that too Anna, he seems a bit unsteady when he's moving.


I wonder if he has issues moving well with his roached spine. I once had a friend who had scoliosis and it for sure influenced the way she moved (or didn't) Knowing how young he is still - and stil growing - it's certainly developing at a fairly fast rate.

Oh and as a side note...since when are we claiming "smallest horse in the world" for a new born that hasn't finished growing? Ozymandias was about 14 inches at birth...he was TINY - but now as a 5 year old he's a normal 28-29 inches.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> I wonder if he has issues moving well with his roached spine. I once had a friend who had scoliosis and it for sure influenced the way she moved (or didn't) Knowing how young he is still - and stil growing - it's certainly developing at a fairly fast rate.
> 
> Oh and as a side note...since when are we claiming "smallest horse in the world" for a new born that hasn't finished growing? Ozymandias was about 14 inches at birth...he was TINY - but now as a 5 year old he's a normal 28-29 inches.



it probably is his spine and im sure it will give him many problems. I dont think 'we're' claiming he's the smallest horse, his current owners are. evident by his website title.


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## miniwhinny (Apr 4, 2011)

Molly said:


> I dont think 'we're' claiming he's the smallest horse, his current owners are. evident by his website title.


Sorry - that's what I meant...it was more of a generic "we" than an actual "we"


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 4, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> Sorry - that's what I meant...it was more of a generic "we" than an actual "we"



lol sorry im a bit slow tonight. i think they just like the publicity. just my 2 cents


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## Sandy B (Apr 5, 2011)

I believe that is what I said- Just because there are leg issues does not mean it is a dwarf. Maybe I should have inserted the word "solely" to "This is not "solely" a dwarf issue, but a growth issue. In full sized horses (what I was referring to), bad legs are not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue, so I would think minis are susceptible to the same issues as full sized horses in regards to contracted tendons and the likes at birth. Thats all I am saying. You cannot say that every mini foal born with crooked legs is a dwarf.



Matt73 said:


> "Those with bad legs could mostly be fixed with frequent proper hoof care of glue shoes or even surgery to release tight tendons. This is not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue."
> 
> This statement is fallacious. More correctly, most/many dwarves _do_ have leg problems. _*But*_, not all leg problems are caused by dwarfism. Bad legs can be a growth issue, too...or may not be. There are several causes of bad legs/hooves. Some can be improved with a great farrier and/or vet, and some can't.


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## [email protected] (Apr 5, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> I find the topics of dwarfs fascinating since we are relatively new in the mini horse world. I have seen obvious pictures of dwarfs and have seen a couple in person. However I have seen a "fine line" in what some of you breeders are saying is conformationally correct and then what is listed as "dwarf characteristics" at the different levels. Please help me understand this all. When talking about dwarfs being large headed or large dome shaped heads & large eyes to the point of being very exotic looking- I see many many pictures of show breeders posting pictures of foals with huge foreheads and eyes. It is almost gross looking. So is this a dwarf trait? I see many many minis looking like miniature Arabians, long fine legs and light in the hip that are winning at halter- is this the "ideal" mini confirmation? I see breeders faulting minis that look like mini quarter horses- stocky, bigger hip, a bit shorter legged with bigger bone, heads not as refined. Is this type of mini a dwarf or conformationally challenged? I thought minis were to resemble several different breeds of larger horses since they are miniature horses. I mean, I agree that roach backs, bad bites, huge heads with no necks and long bodies and no legs scream dwarf, but who is to say that the Arabian type mini is more desirable than a stock type or qtr horse looking mini?
> 
> I have bred and shown quarter horses for years and have seen my fair share of conformational problems in foals. Some were prone to such problems due to genetics and others was just cruddy luck. Those with bad legs could mostly be fixed with frequent proper hoof care of glue shoes or even surgery to release tight tendons. This is not a dwarf issue, but a growth issue. It happens. So does every mini that is born that had contracted tendons or crooked limbs considered a dwarf? What about neck length? Have you ever looked at full size horses and seen the difference in their necks? Does a short neck automatically mean dwarf?
> 
> Finally, is there a test that can be run on breeding stock to test for dwarfism? I want to do my part. We have more stock type looking minis, which we prefer. They are all pretty, and correct with the exception of one aged mare with a short neck and none have Arabian dished heads, but none have ugly heads and all bites are correct. I suppose some of you would say they are conformationally poor due to looking like mini quarter horses, but we like them.


Hi Sandy, no there isn't a 'dwarf' test yet.

As for conformation in Minis, you're dead on with some say Araby others say domey-dwarfy. Personally while love the look of Arabs, I've yet to see a true "Mini" Arab. And I don't think that should be the ideal. But that is personal opinion. I've noticed over the years that people tend to breed Minis that resemble their larger breed of choice whether it's Q-horse, T-bred, Arab, Morgan, etc. A trend I think will continue as more people (as they age) transition to Minis. If you had a big black, blue eyed bald face quarterhorse that you loved you might want a Mini that had those characteristics.

The person who introduced me to Minis loved Paso's and Icelandic - glorious manes/tails, wonderful movement, but longer than what is considered now the 'ideal' heads! Pretty but not the wedgy-wide bug eye that is commonly seen now. I love Fresian's and would love to have a field of Mini Fresian's!

Someone had posed the question once, what if we found out the 'bug-eye wideset eyes was the same gene that caused dwarfism, would breeders stop? Not saying it is in anyway, but makes you wonder what some people would do.

RE: Einstein. I'm on the fence about him being a dwarf. The smaller Mini's (discussed this in the past with breeders that specialize in the under 30") have all mentioned getting small Mini that is very proportional correct is alot of work. The head is the last to 'shrink' down as you want smaller teeth, not just small head with large teeth. So looking at Einstein, he looks like a small, not perfect Mini. The roached back I've seen before in horses that have feeding/health issues, that is not a permanent thing. Honestly though I haven't followed Einstein as too me it's a media circus and they're riding the wave. Just not my cup of tea.


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## Raine Ranch Minis (Apr 5, 2011)

Ok I found this picture it is "Recent"






and sorry it is so small.


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## wcr (Apr 5, 2011)

To follow up with what Michelle said, we have had many discussions about the araby look wether it might be dwarf characteristics that we are breeding into our horses. When John Eberth was answering questions about dwarfism I asked him that question,and while he couldn't give a definite answer, he did say maybe. That gives food for thought. I had a colt born that was contracted in his front legs. Was he a dwarf? Heck no. He worn splints on his front legs for 2 days and was fine after that. Consider the small space they have to live in before birth and you are going to get a few. People post pics and say they are "unfolding" and that is just what they are doing.

As an example, take what happened in Quarter horses with HYPP and Impressive. He was the premier halter stallion because he had the muscle and bulk they were looking for. Why did he have the muscle? Because with the HYPP he fitted himself out standing in a stall having muscle spasms from the HYPP. AQHA is now trying to fix the problem they should have taken a stand on 25 years ago. Are we doing the same thing with the araby look in minis? I don't know and will have to wait and see.

Coming from the big horse halter world, we power feed young horses to "fit" them for halter classes as weanlings. You will see growth related leg problems, contracted tendons and epiphisitis that you don't see in minis. If you are raising these type of horses you better know what these things are to correct them as soon as they start to develop.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 5, 2011)

i found some pics of him that were taken last year
















Just for comparison sake, here's Thumbelina:






I am totally convinced he is a dwarf, and I must say that it really irritates me that they are treating Einstein more like a dog than a horse!

ETA: Is it just me or does Einsteins coat look kinda curly?


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## Riverdance (Apr 5, 2011)

Wow, look at the truck that they are hauling one little horse around in. You can't tell me that this is not for the money.

His body shape is so like Thumbelina. As I said before when they first started on all this hype...DWARF...DWARF.....DWARF

Sure wish we could educate the media and thus the public that this is not cute or acceptable. Would we give this kind of coverage on a human Little Person?


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 5, 2011)

I _think_ the coat may have been caused by his being clipped- although a lot in fact most of my clipped animals grow out normally there is the odd one that can grow out strangely. Also, it would depend on when he was last clipped and how long it has been growing.

As to the legs being crooked on some foal- yes, we see a lot of it but I do not remember any badly affected foals that have been put up on here for comments and help being consequently touted as stallions- in fact I _do_ remember a couple that I (as a prime gelder) would have thought twice about gelding being gelded as weanlings purely on the basis of their having been so crooked at birth.

In a lot of ways the Mini Horse World is showing the way- I honestly do believe we have more honest and conscientious breeder/owners than we have dishonest/bad ones- but on the subject of dwarfism we do tend to stick our heads in the sand just a tiny, weeny bit.

If there were a test- when there is a test- I shall test my animals.

Any animal that carries a dwarf gene would be removed form the breeding programme irrespective of it's looks and championship status- that is irrelevant as far as I can see.

I have already been through this with my Dobes and Von Willebrands Disease (a form of rampant haemophillia) and that is the only way to do it. I am sure those of you who have or have had QHs have done the same with HYPP- but we _really_ do need a test first, then we need a society that will have the guts to at least insist on the test status being noted on the pedigree. I would personally like all horses to have to be tested by the time their third foal is born (as we started into DNA) and that this should be mandatory, with the result on the papers.

This is what we did with Lethal White in Siamese's- we did not have an immediate moratorium on breeding LW carriers, but it has been slowly edged out. The same could be done with dwarfism.

I love the Arab type, I come form Arabs, they were my breed. We managed to get extravagant heads without dwarfism in them, and in Welsh Sec As, so I can see no reason why we cannot do the same in Minis.

Selective breeding should not cause dwarfism, so long as we are really selective!

These couple of dwarf threads have been really informative- I hope they can be put onto the "archives" or even moved onto the Dwarf Forum??


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 5, 2011)

Riverdance said:


> Wow, look at the truck that they are hauling one little horse around in. You can't tell me that this is not for the money.
> 
> His body shape is so like Thumbelina. As I said before when they first started on all this hype...DWARF...DWARF.....DWARF
> 
> Sure wish we could educate the media and thus the public that this is not cute or acceptable. Would we give this kind of coverage on a human Little Person?



Totally agree!



All of this is money, nothing else. Many small mini foals are born at 14" but do you see their breeders contacting the media?


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 5, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> If there were a test- when there is a test- I shall test my animals.
> 
> Me too, mostly out of pure curiousity
> 
> ...


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## shelia (Apr 5, 2011)

I wasn't going to comment on this as I try not to judge people, but in this case I will share my 2 cents.

First of all, does anyone know how tall he is now? It appears he may have lost his smallest horse status anyway.

The only concern I have with him is his roached back. I sure hope that doesn't cause him pain. The cause could be many things one of which could be that his internal organs are just too big for his size.

I think of mini breeding as similar to dog breeding. Through the years we have created almost every size and shape imaginable. It can happen unintintionaly with minis. Of course then dwarfism was introduced into the mix. It was tragic that early breeders did not take it seriously enough long ago. They did know! Many just denied it. You can tell when your horse isn't right. When trying to downsize, sometimes you can the legs too short or the body too long or even the head too big. That doesn't mean they are a dwarf. it just means they got part of the genes for the larger horses in the background. They are not what we are striving for but they are not dwarves. A deformity is a bit different. You can tell if you open your mind and think about it. You will know that little horse isn't right. You can try to deny to everyone else, but you will know.

Of course sometimes they can be carriers and you won't see it.

We are all terrified of this and with good reason. Many mares are lost trying to deliver a dwarf. If it does survive the birth, the quality of life will be greatly compromised.

I wish a long healthy life for Einstein. Perhaps being in the spotlight will insure he will always get the care he needs. If people come to buy a mini from you because they have seen Einstein, then you will be able to show them one with better conformation and educate them.


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## Sandy B (Apr 5, 2011)

[email protected] said:


> Thank you Michelle!
> 
> You are right about minis resembling many breeds. I just wish AMHA would separate halter classes in to a Stock type and Arab type. It would be nice.
> 
> ...


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## Margo_C-T (Apr 5, 2011)

Sandee B...never fear, you are not the only one who likes a QH look in minis...nor should you be. Wish I had a way to scan and post photos; with a VERY long history in QH's(since the mid-50s), I also favor the QH look--though I'll add, I do NOT mean the 'look' of today's 'Halter' QH's, which I consider pitifully freakish...so all of my registered minis have the 'general' look of what I consider a quality QH(but the only decent photos I have of them are from their 'glory days' of some years back, w/ no digital camera available.)You can see a head shot of one in my avatar, in a casual snapshot...you can see his 'non'extreme', attractive head(even though he occasionally lets his lower lip droop, as he was doing there!)

IMO, none of the pics of Einstein available on this thread really make it possible to fairly evaluate his overall build. I do think I recall seeing a photo which clearly showed a serious roach back, though. My gut feeling at this point is that he likely wouldn't qualify definitively as a dwarf...not as yet, anyway...but clearly appears to have conformational issues(the roach back is the visibly most serious, at least at this time) and overall, isn't likely to be something you'd wish to replicate conformationally. I don't think he is likely to long qualify for ANY 'smallest' category of equine, as he matures(and NO immature individual should be able to claim such a designation, anyway, IMO)...and for sure, I wouldn't be keeping him a stallion.

Margo


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## Sue_C. (Apr 5, 2011)

> I love the Arab type, I come form Arabs, they were my breed. We managed to get extravagant heads without dwarfism in them, and in Welsh Sec As, so I can see no reason why we cannot do the same in Minis.


Exactly so, and the first thing to do is to make people realize that a bulging forehead is NOT an "Araby" head...


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## splash's mom (Apr 5, 2011)

Okay,

It must be the crappy weather or I need to get a life because I'm going to jump in here and comment on this thread. I hope I can get want I want to say out correctly. We all agree I think, that Einstien is less than correct.( okay a lot less) and most would rather not see him out in the public eye.But it is free publicity for the breed, (don't flame me here let me finish) and I can hear it now "other breeds don't take us seriously because of horses like that, He's a bad example" Well I say who cares what they think, they have their own problems and uglies to contend with. All I know is that alot of minis showup at nationals and worlds every year ( beautiful horses I might ad) and that I do take serious. As for Einstien being in the public eye maybe just maybe someone see's him and show's up at your doorstep wanting to buy a miniature horse and you can tell them all about the beautiful, horses you have for sale

" Educate Them" I know as far as I'm concerned having grown up with horses I can tell the difference between good and bad but people new to horses aren't looking at him and thinking omg he's got a roach back. So I would like to look at the sunny side of this thread because it is so cold damp and miserable here in New England today


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## Matt73 (Apr 5, 2011)

So....people that comment on this need to get a life? Nice.


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## splash's mom (Apr 5, 2011)

Matt73 said:


> So....people that comment on this need to get a life? Nice.



That's not how I meant it. And is the exact reason why I shouldnt have gotten involved in this thread. My Bad


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## Helicopter (Apr 5, 2011)

I think he's cute



.......poor little buggar.


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## shelia (Apr 5, 2011)

Now Matt,

This is not a reason to pick a fight. We all know the post was not meant to be taken that way. We shouldn't take one line in a post and pick it apart. This is why I am afraid to post sometimes. I am afraid people will take what I type the wrong way.



Matt73 said:


> So....people that comment on this need to get a life? Nice.


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## midnight star stables (Apr 5, 2011)

splash said:


> That's not how I meant it. And is the exact reason why I shouldnt have gotten involved in this thread. My Bad


I think you had some good thoughts! And as I do agree that Einstein is a dwarf. I'm hoping that his owners will promote and educate that fact themselves, once they realize it. And I'm sure they are great people... Just wish we could get a National grand champion on Oprah.


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## Matt73 (Apr 5, 2011)

shelia said:


> Now Matt,
> 
> This is not a reason to pick a fight. We all know the post was not meant to be taken that way. We shouldn't take one line in a post and pick it apart. This is why I am afraid to post sometimes. I am afraid people will take what I type the wrong way.







Maybe it's me. Maybe it's the weather, like you said. Sorry....


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## shelia (Apr 5, 2011)

And maybe I took your post wrong too. Maybe you just like to point out the small things. It's okay Matt. I will try to get used to your posts. Maybe you should be an English teacher or an Attorney. Still love ya Matt.



Matt73 said:


> Maybe it's me. Maybe it's the weather, like you said. Sorry....


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## Matt73 (Apr 5, 2011)

shelia said:


> And maybe I took your post wrong too. Maybe you just like to point out the small things. It's okay Matt. I will try to get used to your posts. Maybe you should be an English teacher or an Attorney. Still love ya Matt.



LOL...Oh lordy. I'm really gonna stop being nitpicky, now. It's probably just a reflection on my own imperfections...



Thanks for accepting my apology...Love you, too


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## Contessa (Apr 5, 2011)

splash said:


> Okay,
> 
> It must be the crappy weather or I need to get a life because I'm going to jump in here and comment on this thread. I hope I can get want I want to say out correctly. We all agree I think, that Einstien is less than correct.( okay a lot less) and most would rather not see him out in the public eye.But it is free publicity for the breed, (don't flame me here let me finish) and I can hear it now "other breeds don't take us seriously because of horses like that, He's a bad example" Well I say who cares what they think, they have their own problems and uglies to contend with. All I know is that alot of minis showup at nationals and worlds every year ( beautiful horses I might ad) and that I do take serious. As for Einstien being in the public eye maybe just maybe someone see's him and show's up at your doorstep wanting to buy a miniature horse and you can tell them all about the beautiful, horses you have for sale
> 
> " Educate Them" I know as far as I'm concerned having grown up with horses I can tell the difference between good and bad but people new to horses aren't looking at him and thinking omg he's got a roach back. So I would like to look at the sunny side of this thread because it is so cold damp and miserable here in New England today


In the back of my mind I have to somewhat agree with what you said. I do think Einstein's publicity just might bring new buyers to our farms. Then it is up to us to educate the public about dwarves the hard way, 1 person at a time. I would feel so much better about this if they just admitted he is a dwarf.Someone from the dwarf forum tried twice to email Einstein's owners with her concerns about his dwarfism and they blocked her emails! General public already loves him so what would it hurt to be truthful about him? It is hard enough for mini owners to grasp all there is to know about dwarves let alone the general public (ie non horse people). They see a tiny horse and say "ahhhh that's so cute,I want one." They don't understand, care or even think about what it takes to correctly take care of one. They are "special needs" horses and I think everyone of them should have the best possible loving and caring home. Newbie breeders seem to get a bad rap on this forum but from what I can see, they are the ones willing to come forward AND want to take responsiblity for the (not perfect)little life they helped create. I know because it happened to me 3 years ago. I had to have him put down after only 2rs & 3 mths due to his progressively bad legs. He was loved and cared for in his very short life and I will always miss him. Dwarves are not a disease, they are a fact in the miniature horse breed. If you are a breeder you really need to educate yourself because there are physical clues on many of the horses that carry the dwarf gene. I have been learning all I can about them because I never want another one...it's too heart breaking.


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## shelia (Apr 5, 2011)

I think maybe they already know he isn't quite right. When he was little they thought they had the perfect little mini. Now that he has grown, the signs are more obvious. Sometimes promoters can push you into things that you don't really want to be in. That could be what happened here. Maybe it has gone so far now that they don't know quite how to get out of it. Are they still promoting him?

I am sure they have gotten a few emails and letters and such. Some have probably been mean.

Of course we can't get a grand Champion mini on the news! I guess that would be too boring! LOL!


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## Contessa (Apr 5, 2011)

They would have to know by now and yes he is still being promoted. He has his own website: smalleststallion.com


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## shelia (Apr 5, 2011)

Contessa said:


> They would have to know by now and yes he is still being promoted. He has his own website: smalleststallion.com


Wow! he sure is still being promoted. They say both parents are champions so they know plenty about conformation. His 1st birthday is coming up. Do you think they will tell how tall he is now?

Too bad they couldn't have found a way to promote his sire. His dam looks nice too.

It doesn't look like anyone is twisting their arm to do this either.

I wanted to give them the benefit of the doubt, but it's getting harder.

Oh well..


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## Contessa (Apr 5, 2011)

shelia said:


> Wow! he sure is still being promoted. They say both parents are champions so they know plenty about conformation. His 1st birthday is coming up. Do you think they will tell how tall he is now?
> 
> Too bad they couldn't have found a way to promote his sire. His dam looks nice too.
> 
> ...


Somewhere on his website a news reporter stated he was 20 inches high and 6 pounds...had to be a typo about the weight but he may be 20 inches.


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## chandab (Apr 5, 2011)

Has anyone seen this Youtube video?



I hope the link works, I found it when I went to the Einstein website, looked at their video and clicked on another.


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## horsehug (Apr 5, 2011)

That's adorable. Thanks Chanda





And getting back to Einstein....... I know I'm in the minority on this topic here on LB, but I still do not "think" Einstein is a dwarf.

I see his faults......but they do not say dwarf to me.

I'd love to hear John Eberth's and Tony Greaves' opinion.

I know they are much more expert on this topic and I am always learning, so maybe they could show me why he is, if in fact he is. At this point I do not see "dwarf".

Susan O. (JMHO)


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## Irishroots (Apr 19, 2011)

I saw Einstein on the Today show and I do not think he is a dwarf.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 19, 2011)

Irishroots said:


> I saw Einstein on the Today show and I do not think he is a dwarf.



no offence but did you seriously have to reply and bring this post back up to the top of the forum??? i was quite happy when it finally died! Einstein brings up way to much fighting and controversy in this forum.


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## Annabellarose (Apr 20, 2011)

Molly said:


> no offence but did you seriously have to reply and bring this post back up to the top of the forum??? i was quite happy when it finally died! Einstein brings up way to much fighting and controversy in this forum.


Seriously? Pot...kettle...


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## TuffyLynn (Apr 20, 2011)

there is a video from the 19th on good morning america...............


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## CAB (Apr 24, 2011)

I was reading everyone's comments regarding Einstein.

I saw /petted, held him at 24 hrs old (before he was famous). He is not a dwarf. His head is not large to his body and he has legs, unlike a dwarf.

He was teenie tiny at birth and portional to his size. I couldn't believe he actually lived being born that small. He couldn't even reach his Dam's udder for several days. He had to be helped.

Einstein has brought lots of attention to the miniature horse world.


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## Genie (Apr 24, 2011)

CAB said:


> I was reading everyone's comments regarding Einstein.
> 
> I saw /petted, held him at 24 hrs old (before he was famous). He is not a dwarf. His head is not large to his body and he has legs, unlike a dwarf.
> 
> ...


A couple of days ago I signed off the forum and decided to take a long vacation. I was so tired of another post on Einstein and the comments coming from people who had never seen anything except pictures and television appearances showing a badly behaved little guy.

I am happy to hear from someone who has actually seen him in person.

Horses, like people, cannot always be the "perfect specimen", but I have seen lots of horses with poorer conformation than Einstein.

So much for my vow to stay off the forum and not comment on Einstein topics






the forum is a wonderful place most of the time.

Thank you for your "informed" post.


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## Reble (Apr 24, 2011)

CAB said:


> I was reading everyone's comments regarding Einstein.
> 
> I saw /petted, held him at 24 hrs old (before he was famous). He is not a dwarf. His head is not large to his body and he has legs, unlike a dwarf.
> 
> ...


Thanks for you post, he sure has gotten a lot of attention even on Lil Beginnings, and you are correct the smallest weighed in mini that was a preemie, who has survived and is hitting the news to help us educate, and give us a chance to get our miniature horses out to the public.

Lot of minis in the show ring have faults but we do know how to hide them.

No perfect miniature horse, we just need to keep on trying.

We say do not breed! but than again we still have a long way to go.

Will never change everyones mind on if he is dwarf or not.

Maybe the next small little mini born will be what all wants for showing and breeding.

All we can do is wait and see.

As for now, cannot change it, Einstein has become famous around the world and is the talk on LB.

Happy Easter to all on LB





Wishing everyone a happy and healthy foaling season.


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## Tony (Apr 25, 2011)

I believe that he has some serious conformational flaws, but do not believe that he is a dwarf.


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## horsehug (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks for giving your opinion, Tony.

I remembered you had told me he was not one back when he was born. And I was hoping to hear your opinion now.

Susan O.


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