# Minis & Dressage...



## MindyLee (Sep 8, 2009)

*Just was wondering if a mini can be taught to dressage and if so how? Has anyone see it before with a mini? I think it would be great to teach my mini stallion to do so in liberty class just for a few seconds.*




*That would get the judges attention!*


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## disneyhorse (Sep 8, 2009)

What sort of dressage are you thinking of?

Generally I can't see dressage done at liberty really... but driven dressage is definitely something you could pursue, or perhaps in lines.

You can teach "tricks" at liberty, such as rearing and spanish walking... but I personally find it tacky in Liberty class... when people make their horses bow and such. I just like to see a happy horse wild and free





Andrea


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## MountainMeadows (Sep 8, 2009)

Mindy while it may look really neat - the Liberty class is not the place to "put on a dressage show" - short of just a few "prancy steps" it looks "trained" and the whole idea of liberty is for the horse to look natural and put a natural looking show. Many years ago there were a lot of people who taught their horses tricks and had a "routine" that the horse worked to - after awhile that "fad" seemed to fade as the judges were looking for a more natural look. I personally think it would be really neat to train a horse to perform dressage moves in hand or in lines, but I would keep that for other performances such as parades, or other exhibitions - what a great thing to show what fun a mini can be!

Keep us posted on your progress - I love to see this sort of stuff - wish I was 25 years younger and had more time to do fun stuff like this!

Stacy


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## GypsyMoonMinis (Sep 9, 2009)

90% of classical dressage can be taught in hand to large horses, so i would assume you can do the same for a mini. IN fact I hope to train mine to do the same. Im learning dressage on my big horse and have a fascination with the classics over the modern. Just like in real dressage, in hand is very athletically demanding, so you would want to work your way up. Its alot more than just doing fancy stuff like piaffe or passage. You'd definately want to start small, teaching the horse how to use its body, building balance, collection and suppleness. I would imagine this type of training could go a long ways for a driving horse as well. Hmm... food for further thought! Furthermore, the in hand training would also be great to further any bond between you and your horse. I have to agree with the other posters as well, from what I've learned of arabian and mini liberty, the judge is looking for natural presence and way of motion. The horse should show all three gaits, and do so in a jubulant manner with alot of expression. I think any trained responses would take away from this. Thats simply my opinion though in my short experiance with liberty.

Going back to dressage. I did find some really neat videos with some driving dressage. This lady is doing intro test b. Its the same USEF test in what looks to be a standard size dressage ring. Its my understanding that the judges are still looking for the same principles, impulsion, obedience, transitions etc. I've love to be able to do this.



You can do a search on amazon for "Dressage in Hand" or "Ground training". I've enjoyed everything I've taught my big horse and can't wait to start with my little ones. I also have some interesting dvd's that teach the basics of in hand dressage principles, you are welcome to send me a pm for the titles.

Im interested in seeing what you decide to do! Keep us updated


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## Sue_C. (Sep 9, 2009)

I don't see why not...a horse is a horse is a horse...





I agree though, that the place for this training is not in the Liberty ring.

As for driven dressage, that is exactly the same for mini or large horses...and the minis can do it quite well. We have even managed to win open driven dressage classes, even in open classes full of Morgans, Arabians and Warmbloods...so there can be no doubt in my mind.


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## targetsmom (Sep 9, 2009)

Since the word "dressage" means "training" of course you can teach a mini dressage! I agree, though, that the Liberty class is not the place to do it.

Some books to get you started: Training the Horse In Hand by Alfons J. Dietz

and Schooling Horses In Hand by Richard Hinrichs (comes with a video too) Both available from Amazon.

Now, if you drive, that is a whole 'nother story! There is driven dressage, which you can learn about at the ADS website; www.americandrivingsociety.org. We drove our first dressage test last month - a Training Level test. Remember that dressage starts with the very basics and you tend to progress slowly, so a training level test is pretty basic - but not easy to do WELL either! I am impressed with Sue C's accomplishment!

When ground driving as part of their cart training, many of our minis learn shoulder-in, which is great way to relax them and keep them supple. I have seen videos of minis doing "dressage" on long lines - check YouTube.

Also, most of the airs above the ground are taught on long lines, so I don't see why minis couldn't work up to them (very slowly...). Of course, not all horses will be able to do those moves, but I have seen my big Pinto do a passable Levade in his pasture!


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## Julie/Azariah (Sep 9, 2009)

I have seen an incredible you tube of a dressage mini. I will see if I can find it....

Yes of coarse Dressage can be taught to any equine. It takes a lot of time and patience.. obvious when you see the years it takes to get an FEI horse to the Grand Prix level.

HAVE FUN and keep us posted.

I may just join you!


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## Julie/Azariah (Sep 9, 2009)

OOOHHH That didn't take log.... found it.

Take the time to watch this one.... it is INCREDIBLE!

Lets keep each other motivated to accomplish THIS!

Scrolll down on the page, the video is at the bottom. Worth the time to watch it!

http://www.dressur-design.de/inhalte/texte...es/lancelot.php


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## minimom1 (Sep 9, 2009)

WOW Lancelot is AMAZING !


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## jegray21 (Sep 9, 2009)

I am so glad someone brought this up! It is called long lining. It is how you train large horses to preform upper level dressage movements. It is a lot of fun. I work my stallion in long lines. It builds a beautiful top line and neck. Works their tummy mussel. Be sure to read about the level of work for just starting out. It is not hard to hurt them with too much collected work. In the long lines you can not feel the horse fatigue underneath your seat like you can on a riding horse...


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 9, 2009)

Another classic dressage buff here! I do driven dressage competitions with my mini gelding and love the way a classic education builds the topline. He started out completely upside-down in his muscling and over the last few years has corrected 100% and looks so much better physically as a result! I've always been a fan of a long slow partnership so dressage suits me perfectly.

I'm not sure I'll ever reach anything remotely upper level (Kody in particular is not built for any sort of real collection as he had stifle problems and now a back injury) but he is a solid Preliminary level horse and was working towards Intermediate before his injury. We will be restarting him in long lines as he heals and focusing much more on lateral work to strengthen him so we'll see how that goes. I also would not be attempting to use dressage in Liberty as it's not a method of trick training but a means of teaching self-carriage and collection, but the work will certainly teach the horse to move more beautifully on his own and that will show up in your Liberty results. My horse does tricks too and I can't resist using some of them at Liberty, but only because Kody's got a total "You Can't Make Me" attitude with music to match and having him slide to a halt in front of me and rear at the end fits the music. He did it naturally the first time we tried Liberty long before I ever taught him to do it on command!





There are some mini driven dressage videos on YouTube if you look, ours is one of them. It was an ugly test but it will give you more of an idea of what they ask for. A driven horse cannot be asked to do lateral work in cart for instance, and canter work is only asked for at the upper levels for brief periods. Mostly it judges how well the horse bends in the corners, how straight they are, how steady their rhythm is and how well they accept contact and use their topline. As you go up the levels they ask for lengthening of stride and then eventually collection with of course a more advanced frame and higher expectations for the details of the above criteria at each level. I love this work!

Leia


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## targetsmom (Sep 9, 2009)

Actually, Leia, I think the YouTube link that GyspyMoonMinis posted earlier on this thread is you and Kody!!!


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## jegray21 (Sep 9, 2009)

Do the minis compete against the larger horses in Driven Dressage? I was going to do that with my Dressage horse Ike but he is not so keen on the carriage behind him...I have had too many riding accidents with him bolting I am not taking that risk! He's one of those sensitive Friesians..lol


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 9, 2009)

targetsmom said:


> Actually, Leia, I think the YouTube link that GyspyMoonMinis posted earlier on this thread is you and Kody!!!


Really? The danger of posting here at work- I can't view YouTube videos so have no idea what's been posted!







jegray21 said:


> Do the minis compete against the larger horses in Driven Dressage?


They compete together for the overall awards but at most events I've attended the minis have their own division. So you'll find Training Level Single Horse, Training Level Single Pony, Training Level Single VSE, Training Level Pair Pony, Training Level Pair Horse, Training Level Pair VSE, etc. etc., and the same for Prelim and Intermediate. You'll get a ribbon within your division, then they look at everyone's scores in Training Level and award an overall Training Level Champion.

Leia


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## targetsmom (Sep 9, 2009)

It might depend on the competition, whether minis compete against big horses or not. We went to our first ADS event last month and chose to compete in the Novice Whip Division and only do the classes with individual workouts. That seemed like a good place to start, because if we had competed in the VSE Division we had to do a Preliminary Dressage Test. There happened to be only one other mini there, who also went in the Novice Whip division, but the other entrants were all "big" horses - some VERY big! We didn't have much of a chance in the timed cones course, and we didn't do that well in the Training Level Dressage Test or Super Reinsmanship, but we WON our progressive cones class. We also had a blast!

Here is link to the photos from that event, posted on the photo/video forum:

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?showtopic=110474


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## Sue_C. (Sep 9, 2009)

> Do the minis compete against the larger horses in Driven Dressage?


At the few CDEs I have seen, there are separate VSE classes, but at the regular open shows that we generally show in, we compete with the other, regular horses and ponies. The minis have done _very_ well for themselves, and the competition isn't "too shabby" at all, with several of the other horses and ponies having competed and placed well in Bromont, Ontario.

This past May a couple of us mini-folks had the opportunity to attend a Robin Groves Clinic, and we learned so much! I am hoping to get more involved with combined driving, and have always loved dressage, both ridden and driven.


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## GypsyMoonMinis (Sep 10, 2009)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> targetsmom said:
> 
> 
> > Actually, Leia, I think the YouTube link that GyspyMoonMinis posted earlier on this thread is you and Kody!!!
> ...


Ha! What a small world! Im guessing its also you, if you post on YouTube as Spyderwind? too funny. ANd I for one thought it was a great test. Is there a governing association for it like USEF? With the big horses i have both intro test a and b memorized, but haven't started training level yet. Injuries etc prevented me from showing my gelding this year. Im not sure about anything like this in montana, or how you would start something like that... like I have time on my full plate to add more to it!





Lancelot is amazing. My mom sent me a link to him last year sometime and I had totally forgotten about it. SO beautiful!


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## ^T-bird89^ (Sep 10, 2009)

Wow! That video was nuts! Lancelot is outstanding. He's almost magical. I wonder how quickly he got to the level he is at now. It says they bought him at age four and he's twelve now, so I guess I have a ball park range for that level of advanced dressage. I've always thought dressage was beautiful, and just think how fun it would be to get our minis in shape that way....the only question is do we have the patience?


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## targetsmom (Sep 10, 2009)

GypsyMoonMinis said:


> Is there a governing association for it like USEF?


That would be the American Driving Society at http://www.americandrivingsociety.org

Look under "rules" and all the dressage tests are posted. Check for a club in your region.


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## Charlotte (Sep 10, 2009)

Beautiful. I am so envious of those of you who are young and sound enough to train for this.....aaaahhh, to be young again.





Please post about your training/progress so those of us who can't do it any more can feel the connection.



I've read every post on here.

Charlotte


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## Tony (Sep 10, 2009)

In 1981 there was a fabulous exhibition of a mini and a big horse doing dressage at the World Show in Katy, TX. I can't remember the man's name, but believe that he came from CA and performed another year, but I don't remember which show that one was. It was one of the most impressive exibitions that I ever saw. He rode the big horse and drove the mini.


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## Kendra (Sep 10, 2009)

Tony said:


> In 1981 there was a fabulous exhibition of a mini and a big horse doing dressage at the World Show in Katy, TX. I can't remember the man's name, but believe that he came from CA and performed another year, but I don't remember which show that one was. It was one of the most impressive exibitions that I ever saw. He rode the big horse and drove the mini.


Ramon Bacerra - he was also there in 96, because that was the year Grandad had his hitch on display as well!

I found a brief youtube -- I remember him doing lots more than this though!


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## Tony (Sep 10, 2009)

Yes, thanks Kendra. His performance was much, much more than the video shows, but it gives an idea for everyone.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 10, 2009)

GypsyMoonMinis said:


> hobbyhorse23 said:
> 
> 
> > targetsmom said:
> ...


Posting from home now and yep, that's us! I read this part of your description of the link:



GypsyMoonMinis said:


> Going back to dressage. I did find some really neat videos with some driving dressage. *This lady is doing intro test b. Its the same USEF test in what looks to be a standard size dressage ring*.


...and assumed it couldn't be me as I was in a 20x40 VSE ring and clearly labeled as doing Preliminary Test #2.



If you know Kody and how he moves when he's _not_ pretending he's run out of gas you'd understand why I thought that was a bad test.



The good news is we all have to start somewhere and I'd like to think we've both improved tremendously since then. He also does not usually bob his head like that but his neck was out and he kept trying to self-adjust. The chiropractor put him right after the event.

I do love that Lance, he's awesome!! One of the few minis I've seen truly doing upper level dressage on long-lines. Ramon Baccera is awesome too although his mini doesn't do much dressage work that I recall; I was there at Equitana USA in 1996 and saw him perform in the Mane Event. I've always wanted to try tandem riding like he and Clay Maier do but unfortunately my old riding horse is too lame at 32 to try it with Kody. Maybe someday!

Leia


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## GypsyMoonMinis (Sep 10, 2009)

What does VSE stand for? I had recognized the test immediately, as the only deviation from the USEF version was at the 20 m and the end, we end at A and no backing. I ride my intro tests in a 20x40 ring also, the higher levels are in 20x60. Now that my arab is healthy again, im hoping to hit the last schooling show of the season in Oct, but we will see. Dont have as much time to ride now that I work full time. You may have said this already, but do you still compete? Does Kody still have issues?


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## targetsmom (Sep 10, 2009)

VSE stands for Very Small Equine.. or mini. I am not positive what the maximum height is for VSE or how it is measured, because all ours are A size so I know they qualify. I think it is either 38 or 39 inches???


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 11, 2009)

GypsyMoonMinis said:


> What does VSE stand for? I had recognized the test immediately, as the only deviation from the USEF version was at the 20 m and the end, we end at A and no backing. I ride my intro tests in a 20x40 ring also, the higher levels are in 20x60.


Ah, I didn't know that! A standard driven dressage arena is much, much larger to accomodate the turn radius of a full-sized horse and vehicle so I didn't understand what you meant as I've never done ridden dressage competition.



Very Small Equines (the American Driving Society's term for any equine under 99cm at the withers) now compete in either a 20x40 or 30x60 arena depending on the organizer's preference and in one of three levels: Training, Preliminary or Intermediate. Larger horses also have a FEI level called "Advanced" but minis are not yet allowed to try that. We do not have an Intro level (that's Training Level's purpose, really) and Prelim is considered pretty advanced for a mini. That is not a simple test when driven! It's very difficult for a horse to maintain proper bend on a small circle when constricted by shafts and without a rider's legs to support them; you also have to get your wheel exactly on the centerline and quarterline and figure your serpentine evenly given the additional complication of the cart.



On our tests we are also given marks for Presentation (how the horse and driver are turned out) and of course overall marks for Gaits, Submission, Impulsion, etc. All these are combined then run through an equation to determine the penalty points which are your score. In driven dressage the lower the score, the better!



GypsyMoonMinis said:


> You may have said this already, but do you still compete? Does Kody still have issues?


Kody's stifle issues were finally resolved surgically in March of 2008 and he went on to win all three major CDE's we entered that year as well as a driving trial, several overall and dressage awards, a Stakes Championship in AMHR and two year-end highpoints.



A lot of his chiropractic issues cleared up with the improvement in his stifles but unfortunately he either injured himself or the cumulative strain of all those years of physical problems caught up with him because this spring it became apparent he had some sort of muscular problem in his back which hurt him when he tried to turn to the right in the cart. He eventually went dramatically lame through the back and has been on complete paddock rest for the last six months.



No shows for us in '09!





He's finally showing improvement thanks in part to regular massage, accupressure, and Reiki treatments so I have some hope we'll be back in the ring next year. I honestly don't know if he'll ever be up to the demands of upper level CDE hazard/obstacle work again but he should be able to handle the breed ring and I hope to make him part of a CDE pair with my yearling when the youngster's old enough. That's the only way Kody could legally step back down to Training Level but I'm fairly sure he'd be able to handle at least that much in a couple of years even if he could never go back to Preliminary. There's really no way to tell at this point, to be honest. Thank you for asking!





I have to sit out next year's combined driving events unless I can borrow a horse but the baby will be driving in 2011 and can then do all the unsanctioned events where three year olds are allowed. That and the breed ring should keep me busy until both horses are CDE-worthy! You should hitch a ride with the other Montana entries that come to Happ's each June for the huge CDE there. You could see the biggest crowd of mini entrants in the entire country compete over three days. So fun!

Leia


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