# Cart/Harness fit critique?



## MITZ (May 23, 2014)

After a winter of ground driving we finally got a cart!

I am looking to order a new harness, one with breeching, (suggestions on where to buy would be GREATLY appreciated) just pleasure driving down the road...

But here is what we have so far, how is the cart for him?


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## Jenny (May 23, 2014)

I'm VERY new to driving, but i'll give it a go based on what I've learned from my driving instructor. Hopefully someone out there will correct me if I'm wrong (which is very possible).

The cart looks a tad small for your horse. It looks like the shafts are tilted upward slightly which is a sign of it being a little too small. Those wheels look very small. What size are they?

For the harness, my only advice is to please remove the check rein. If it's not removable, cut it off. For pleasure driving, there is no reason for your horse to wear a check rein. Even if it's lose, it can still affect his movement and it could be very uncomfortable for him. That's something to look for if you purchase a new harness, make sure if it has a check, that it's easily removable. Another pet peeve of mine are snaps on the lines, which your harness appears to have. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, it's hard to see exactly in the photo.) This is incredibly dangerous and you should not drive with these types of lines. Lines should have buckles at the ends, and only buckles (another thing to look for in a new harness).

As for where to buy a harness, look on the numerous Facebook groups for miniature horses and tack for sale, there are tons of quality harnesses at really good prices on those pages, but there are also lots of cheap, poor quality ones there too, so beware. I found my harness on one of the Facebook groups and I just sent it out for alterations so it will fit perfectly and I'm thrilled with it. For new harness, I've heard great things about Ideal Harness for both leather and synthetic, which is where my instructor gets most of her harnesses. I've also heard good feedback on the Comfy Fit harness if you're looking for a nice beta harness.

Hopefully more experienced people will chime in and give you some more information. Your little guy is adorable, by the way


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## MITZ (May 25, 2014)

Thank-you!

Hmmm. The cart is too small??? We had a cart with 52" shafts and that was to big. This is 48" shafts and a 31.50" horse which I've been told should be perfect?

I have been watching all winter for a used harness without much luck, other than what I have here. And by snap reins you mean reins that clip on vrs reins that buckle onto the bit?


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## Max's Mom (May 25, 2014)

I don't think your cart is too small.The horse has plenty of room from what I can see. I think that the wheels on the cart are very small, and that larger wheels would bring the shafts level and also be easier to pull.

I'm not a check rein fan, though you are required to use one if you show in breed shows. If you think you need a check, you could get a sidecheck which can be removed or added as needed.


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## Jenny (May 25, 2014)

Sorry, I guess I should have clarified about the cart size. The *shafts* are plenty long. 48" is even possibly a bit too long as general guidelines are to multiply the horse's height in hands by 5 and you get the ideal shaft length in inches. So, 32" is 8H x 5 = 40" shafts, but these are just guidelines and it could be slightly different for mini's as this is a large horse equation. It is very rare that shafts are too short and way too often are they too long. What I mean by being your cart possibly being too small, is that the *wheels* appear to be much too small making the cart sit too low. For a horse his size, 24" diameter wheels will give both of you a more comfortable ride. Luckily, cart wheels should be very easy to locate.

I know, it's really hard to find the perfect harness. It will come along eventually, whether it be new or used. Yes, by snap reins I mean the ones that clip onto the bit rather than buckle onto it.

Max's Mom is correct that a check rein is required in breed shows (which is why I'm not a fan of breed shows). So, if that's something you're thinking of doing in the future, you'll need a harness with a removable side check (but *no overcheck!*).


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## MITZ (May 25, 2014)

Thank-you both.

The wheels are 16" and seemed to small to me also as I remember from driving years ago that 20" was as small as you'd want.

There are little fenders on this cart that would need to be removed, I'll ask the husband, but I don't see why we couldn't put 24" bike tires on the cart. So that is why it isn't level? That was the biggest thing jumping out at me.

And I am looking for a bridle with side check, this was just a temp until we found something. Opinions on this harness (link)


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## Max's Mom (May 25, 2014)

I'll jump back in to say that going from 16 inches to 24 inches will make the cart sit 4 inches higher which might (or might not) make the shafts go downhill. So you might want to play around to see where the shafts will be level before actually purchasing the tires. You might do better with 20 or 22 inch, though I really don't know. Also, make sure that they are made for a cart rather than for a bike, as I've heard that bike tires aren't sturdy enough. Kingston Saddlery carries tires in various sizes and has free shipping. I have the motorcycle tires from them and they are really sturdy.


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## Jenny (May 26, 2014)

Yes, 16" wheels are too small. I personally think that unless it's for a tiny 28" mini, you shouldn't go below a 24" wheel. Another handy calculation is to multiply height in hands by 3 and that gives you your wheel size. So, 8H x 3 = 24" wheels. Again, this is just an approximation. It would be good if you could talk to someone really knowledgable in this subject. Do you have a trainer or driving instructor you could ask?

Please *do not* use bicycle tires. You would be putting you and your horse in serious danger. Bicycle tires are not made to withstand the weight and motion of driving. You must get proper wheels made for *carts*. Also, if you are purchasing new wheels, you might want to check out steel wheels. They are really a necessity if you're going to be driving on anything but flat, level ground. I've heard some horror stories of wire spoke wheels collapsing when pushed beyond their limits (which aren't very far). Just something to think about.

I don't have any experience with that harness, but that's certainly an amazing price! I had no idea you could by a harness, let alone a leather one, that was as inexpensive as that. I would be a little weary of what they had to skimp on to sell it for that price. Chances are it's Indian leather, which should be avoided if possible, and the hardware may be poor quality. Hopefully someone who has this harness will know more about it. It could just be a really good deal!


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## Max's Mom (May 26, 2014)

Goodness, I should have checked out your link last night when I was commenting! I have that same harness from Rons! It is a starter harness, but it is not a cheaply made one! The saddle has a tree, and the leather is decent quality and well stitched. The hardware is solid. I will say that I don't use that bridle, as I found it to be too big for my horse's head and the blinders and stays do not have a stiff wire in them, which means that I couldn't adjust them properly. the size issue might just be that my horse has a small head compared with his body. I've used the harness quite a lot for 3 years, and it still looks good, with no problem areas.


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## horsenarounnd (May 26, 2014)

Wheels, not tires are what you need to be looking at. Many folks use the terms interchangeably, but the WHEELS are what you need to be concerned with. With a horse of that size, 20" wheels are probably the right choice. Most of my carts use 20" and that is a good size anf they are also pretty available. Northern Tool is agood source, They have a good quality wheel for around 50.00 plus shipping. Be careful to get your measurements right, as all wheels aren't the same. Measure your axle, as you can get 5/8 or3/4 inch diameter. Also measure the width of the hub as that dimension varies, too. Kinfston Saddlery also offers several sizes and types of wheels at good prices. Again check the measurements carefully. I'd recommend using the steel spoke wheels with pneumatic tires. With a horse as small as yours, weight makes a difference and the wheels can add a lot of weight prety quickly. You'll also see the cost goes up real fast when you look at the motorcycle wheels and the steel wheels with hard rubber tires.

Regarding the harness, I've had harness from this company, and for the most part it was good. The problem I had with it is that some of the parts were not sized right, and when I tried to exchane it I was unable to return it. The company was fine with it, but the Post Office wouldn't ship it without paying a HEAVY import fee to send it to Canada, and UPS wouldn't ship it at all. Stick with an American company. I have gotten harness from the Robinson Harness Company from Kansas and been happy with the quality and price.

There's a lot of harness available, take your time and buy the best quality you can afford. Also don't neccessarily equate quality with price. A good place to check is Iowa Valley Carriage. Sandee MaKee has very good quality at fair prices and will always stand behind her product. We have several of her harnesses, both leather and synthetic and have never been disapointed. Good luck


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 26, 2014)

horsenarounnd said:


> Regarding the harness, I've had harness from this company, and for the most part it was good. The problem I had with it is that some of the parts were not sized right,*(**We have also had some sizing problems, headstalls being the biggest issue but I do think its a decent harness for the price) * and when I tried to exchane it I was unable to return it. The company was fine with it, but the Post Office wouldn't ship it without paying a HEAVY import fee to send it to Canada, and UPS wouldn't ship it at all *This is quite funny since the harness is actually built - as far as I understand- In the US not here in Canada. I have had many things shipped from the US to Canada and the reverse as well. I see no reason a harness or parts of one should have been a problem other than shipping costs which are high regardless *. Stick with an American company. I have gotten harness from the Robinson Harness Company from Kansas and been happy with the quality and price.
> 
> There's a lot of harness available, take your time and buy the best quality you can afford. Also don't neccessarily equate quality with price. A good place to check is Iowa Valley Carriage. Sandee MaKee has very good quality at fair prices and will always stand behind her product. We have several of her harnesses, both leather and synthetic and have never been disapointed. Good luck


I agree with most of what has been said in previous posts. Larger wheels on your cart should improve the fit, bicycle wheels are not the same as cart wheels and with not stand up to the twisting forces that cart wheels must so please be aware of that - no need to have a wreck that injures you or your horse. You have a cute little guy and good for you for taking the time to ask questions that will help him be comfortable and enjoy his job.


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## MITZ (May 26, 2014)

Wow, thank-you all again.

As far as someone to talk to, or get lessons from, I would have long since done that if I knew who. No one in my area is familiar with Miniature Horses (and if they are, anyone that I know of is busy breeding less than desirable horses OR using them as cute kids riding ponys in ill fitted tack with oversized riders OR using them as cheap pasture mates for full sized horses and not into driving, especially not properly) and the only folks driving are Amish.

I was told years ago to use bike tires on my cart, before I got out of and back into minis but, duly noted, I will order from one of the suggested places. I do not want any accidents. This is why I am asking, and learning so much!

OK so. We'll see what 20" wheels do for him. I will measure carefully.

I am in the market for two more carts. The one that we bought was from Shipshewana Harness & Supplies. I bought it used at a very good price just to get "something" here to start driving these little guys. I haven't seen any from this company before and I haven't been able to find it online. It is a very solid built little cart. You've all had great suggestions, what brand of cart do you suggest? Again, nothing fancy, just easy entry, is there a website I should be looking on? I have been steering clear of Ebay specials carts. Assuming that is the same as Ebay saddles.

I looked up the harness on Robinson harness, so any of these should make a good pleasure driving harness for these little tykes? http://robinsonharnesss.com/harnesses/single-driving.htm

I want one with Breeching, so the cart doesn't run the horse over when we stop. I have only driven that one time (at the time the picture was taken so I could ask) because I wasn't liking driving without it.


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## MITZ (May 26, 2014)

OH and, one more dumb questions.

I have been wondering, what is the benefit to having the curved shafts?

http://www.kingston-saddlery.com/kss.asp?sel=product&id=C2251.69-80CM&typ_id=60


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## Jenny (May 26, 2014)

For a trainer, they definitely do not have to be familiar with miniatures. Driving is the exact same with large horses as it is with the little ones. Does your area have an ADS club? That would be an excellent place to find a trainer. My trainer works with large horses almost exclusively and I'm actually learning to drive on large horses. There's so much to learn and working with a driving instructor has been such a blessing!

As for good carts, I've heard really good things of Patty's Pony Place. They have what look to be some really nice easy entry carts. When my guy is ready for a cart, I'll be purchasing (or hope to be purchasing) a Pacific Carriage Smart Cart. This won't be until I gain both experience and the funds! I don't know about where you live, but here in Canada, shipping is ridiculously expensive. So, if that's the case where you are, than you might want to look for something that's around your area.

I don't know anything about that harness, either, but that's another great price! This harness does not appear to be up to *my* standards in terms of quality (and those pesky snap on reins, but that's an easy fix). The major problem, I'd say, is the conway buckles. I don't have a lot of experience with conway buckles, but I've heard terrible things about them and that would be enough to deter me from any of these harnesses. Also, just a reminder that even though all these harnesses come with a bit, please do a thorough quality check on the bit as the bits that come with harnesses are usually *very* poor quality and should not be put inside our little one's mouths.


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## Marsha Cassada (May 26, 2014)

I think your harness looks fine. Yes, the wheels are too small. They LOOK like bicycle tires but are actually much different. The hub is much wider on cart wheels and the spokes are fixed. They are the type of wheels used on industrial equipment, such as irrigation equipment.

There was discussion here some time back about the reins with snap ends instead of buckle. I know the snaps are convenient, but after reading the posts about them, I would not use them. Not sure exactly why they came into wide use; the big horse western riders use them alot.

Do look at your bit carefully. Many of the ones that come with headstalls are not well made. Usually they are broken snaffles, with the single break in the middle. This break forms a sharp point when pressure is on the reins and it stabs into the roof of the horse's mouth. Sometimes they have little burrs at the edges. Just look it over.

Doesn't hurt to use an overcheck; yours looks loose. Many drivers never drive without one. I don't care for all that "stuff" on the head, but your horse needs to learn to work with one.

Conway buckles are a pain, but if that's what you have you can work with them.

Looks as though you are off to a pretty good start! We all learn as we go and our equipment evolves and changes. I doubt any of us is still using the exact same equipment we started with.


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## horsenarounnd (May 27, 2014)

I want to come to the defense of conway buckles. We use them in many places on our harnesses, but not all. Firstly, they are a pain to adjust, so in the places that you need to make frequent adjustment usr regular tongue buckles. BUT, look closely at the conway buckles from the piont of SAFETY. When a conway is properly used and adjusted, there are no strap ends sticking out to catch or snag on rings or other straps. They are also the least likely to break or come undone at the wrong time. They are a very safe buckle to use and will give your overall turnout a smoth and orderly appearence. Don't just dismiss them because they may be a little harder to adjust. If you are using the harness on one horse, you will likely just adjust it one time only so take the time to do it just once and do it safely. On girths, lines crupper and other places that need to be taken apart frequently, don't use them.

As far as the snaps on the ends of your lines, it was explained to me very graphically. An instructer put a clean bit in my mouth, attached the lines with snaps and then moved the lines. The metal on metal , the snap clicking on the bit, is transmitted to the mouth of the horse. Yeah, it hurts, or at least is uncomfortable. Why do you want to intentionally want to make your horse uncomfortable? A happy horse is going to perform better for you, so use buckle on lines. Again, use tongue and buckle connections because its a lot easier to manipulate (especially if your using size XXL hands like mine) but avoid the metal to metal atttachment.

You don't say where in MI you live, but if you go to northern IN or central OH you can find a lot of good quality cart/carriage makers in the Amish communities. Do stay away from imported carts. The Chinese and Mexican imports are often made with inferior quality steel and just don't hold up. If you can buy from a place you can look at teh cart and drive it before you buy, and make sure you take a knowlegable person with you if you are not sure what to look for. Take you time and buy the best you can afford. One place to look is Rural Heritage Magazine. Its published in IA and carries a lot of advertising from quality vendors. I just got my latest issue on line, and it just full of good information.


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## MiniNHF (May 27, 2014)

Max's Mom said:


> I don't think your cart is too small.The horse has plenty of room from what I can see. I think that the wheels on the cart are very small, and that larger wheels would bring the shafts level and also be easier to pull.
> 
> .


I agree I think larger wheels would help even out the shaft levels.

I also agree with the others on if you are not showing to get rid of the check and also swap out the reins with the buckle kind of some sort. I never liked the metal on metal concept and never even had those types on any of my riding horses.


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## Max's Mom (May 27, 2014)

You asked about curved shafts (a question I was pondering about a year ago as I was preparing to purchase a cart). Anyway, the curved shafts allow the horse to have more shoulder movement and better/quicker turning (no shaft to interfere) and are sometimes preferred for people who do driving with tight, quick turns, like if you did a cones or hazards part of CDE.


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## MITZ (May 28, 2014)

That makes sense with the curved shafts.

We live about four hours from the southern MI boarder.

The bit on my current bridle looks fine as far as no sharp points or rust spots etc but it is a cheap bit. Is there a particular brand that you'd suggest? I know what kind of bits I use in my riding horses, but Stubbens do not come in miniature ;-)

I have looked at the Weaver brand half cheek snaffle. I guess I can always order it and look it over when it gets here to see if I approve or not. Mini tack has a nice looking little french link I think my stallion would prefer.

I had this harness 6 years ago when I was last driving and I liked it. http://www.minitack.com/mw140.htm But I was more interested in something leather, like the other two links I've posted, this time around.


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## Jenny (May 28, 2014)

I have a Robart Pinchless bit. It's a really nice bit and has internal bushing that allows the bit to rotate in the middle. I've heard excellent things of Myler bits and they make many different styles.

Ozark Mountain Mini Tack has several leather harnesses that look decent.

This one looks nice and is reasonable: http://www.minitack.com/mw135.htm


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## disneyhorse (May 28, 2014)

Myler does make a fantastic bit, and you can custom select the options. Well worth the money.


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## Marsha Cassada (May 28, 2014)

I have two or three Mini Express french link bits. They have worked well for me. I love my myler, but it does not have a place to attach a check. And it is heavier than the french link. If your horse is on the small side, a lighter bit might be acceptable. It is very satisfying to use a well-made bit like the myler, which is a kind of work of art. But the myler is too heavy for my smaller horses. I bought it for a 36" horse I had. My 32" horses are used to the smaller french link and prefer it.


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## happy appy (May 29, 2014)

I really like this bit from national Bridle. I have quite a few that I drive in it!

http://www.nationalbridle.com/product-p/1-6818.htm


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