# A sad, sad day at AMHA



## Charlotte (Oct 10, 2005)

A sad, sad, day at AMHA......

Mary Lou, if you feel this post will in any way hurt LB Forum please delete it.

[SIZE=14pt]~~~ We have just returned from the World show. I have spent a lot of time thinking about whether or not to post this here, but I don't know of any other way to get this information out before a large population of AMHA members.[/SIZE]

This regards the measuring at the World show. It _appeared to me _that there had been a conscious decision to allow people to put their horse's in any size class they wanted regardless of the actual height of the horse.

Below are the two incidents of which I have first hand knowledge as reported to me by the actual participants. I am not going to use any names.

1. An exhibitor had a senior stallion measured at 30". He was to show in the 28" - 30" class. After watching a number of halter classes it was obvious that many horses were considerably over the height limit for the class they were showing in. The exhibitor studied the rule book then went to the office and asked what the procedure was to file a protest there at the show when the horses were in the makeup area where it would become obvious that there were horses over 30" going in the class. There was much discussion and several trips to the office to meet with officials. In the final discussion with the official in charge (not office personnel who were very courteous) the exhibitor was told to 'try to file a protest and the official would immediately call the committee (show committee I assume) and the protest would not be allowed. The official said the show would have to wait while this took place and so a protest would not be allowed. My thoughts on this---the horse is right there available---how long would it take to measure him???? Then he could just stay right there and go into the next class that fit his height.

The 30" horse did place in the Top Ten.

One horse entered in 28" - 30" in the program showed in 28" and under and went Champion.

2. Second incident. An owner had a 28" horse entered in the 28" and under class. One of the horses also entered in the 28" and under class was the Regional Champion 28" -30". The horse was originally entered in the World show 28" - 30" class. The show record of that horse was reviewed and it had been shown all year in 28"-30". The owner of the 28" horse filed a protest. The protested horse then measured over 29".

The trainer of the 28" horse then refused to show that horse in his class because "trainers have to stick together" (this quote is what the owner repeated to me) resulting in the loss of a possible World Championship for the horse and much pain and financial loss for the owner. (the trainer is also a judge which leads us to other issues)

~~~

Now, *WHO IS TO BLAME FOR THIS MESS????? *Well, as much as I find it difficult to admit this....*I AM TO BLAME FOR THIS*! Yes, that's right. Me. Because I have moaned and groaned over the years as I have sat on my hands and done NOTHING! I have not contacted my directors to let them know of my concerns. I have not attended but ONE annual meeting to inform myself and give my input. I have not written letters to the AMHA president and directors and committees explaining my concerns. I have not offered constructive suggestions or volunteered to help with the work! That is about to change....because I believe strongly in the AMHA as an organization .. because I strongly support the validity of the AMHA pedigrees through the DNA program ... because horses have been the love of my entire life!

I will rob Peter to pay Paul and attend the annual meetings.......I will go early and sit in on the committee meetings where I can't vote, but I can listen and make myself informed. I will volunteer.

*WILL YOU HELP ME????* Will you call or write your director? The AMHA president? The Chairman of the Show committee? Will you offer suggestions to improve our organization?

What is that saying? "If you're not part of the solution, you're part of the problem" Well, I think it's time I stop being a problem!

Charlotte

p.s. I have made this large print hoping that all can read it.


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## kaykay (Oct 10, 2005)

hi charlotte

im so sorry we didnt get to meet at the show. never enough time!

This was the only fault i could find with the show. I watched and there were many horses that OBVIOUSLY were not in the right class according to what they measure. I didnt know anything about the measuring problems but I knew there was no way some of those horses could have measured in - in the class they were showing in.

I was really shocked as I thought they started the whole video tape of measuring to cure this???? Am I wrong??

And I agree with your ending message. All of us have to get more involved in both registries and let our voices be heard and get some changes made.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 10, 2005)

I to thought there was a video for this very reason but really our whole breed is to blame period... we are the ones who wanted to make our horses appear smaller then they are by measuring different then any other equine out there leaving it very very subjective as to where to measure, leaving it different for those that happen to have a longer mane then others (meaning how far down it goes) or those that might clip a bit different or or or

That is JMO anyway


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 10, 2005)

Hummmmmmmm................now this is all making better sense to me. I got a few calls on this and couldn't really make heads or tails of the stories I was hearing. But now I understand. And I have to say that is why I show ARABS! If they break a rule during Nationals, for instance, a shoe being over weight or hoof being too long, they get their BUTTS DISQUALIFIED IMMEDIATELY!!! And all prizes taken away. What good are rules if they are not followed thru with. Especially the ones that were proven right on the spot. UGH! You can have it.


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## LaVern (Oct 10, 2005)

That is just awful of the trainer, whoever it is. I am so proud that you protested what you felt was wrong.

You are so right, that we must get involved, because if we don't we are part of the problem.

Protest- Protest- Protest- I tried many years ago at AMHR Nationals, but I couldn't run fast enough to catch the steward.

There should be no shame in protesting. My hat goes off to you.

Let's all find out what the rules are for both butt. and go in with a pocket full of 50 or 100 dollar bills in our pockets at both Nationals and World and clean this up. If enough of us do it, it will hold the shows up enough for that year that maybe in the next year it will be cleaned up. Or maybe just the threat of it will do it. It just takes enough exhibitors that have the guts that you did.

It has become a trainers game and they want to fill all the classes they can- $$$, and sadly we put up with it because we all want that hot trainer.


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## Cathy_H (Oct 10, 2005)

> The exhibitor studied the rule book ................where it would become obvious that there were horses over 30" going in the class....................................Â  the exhibitor was told to 'try to file a protest and the official would immediately call the committee ............... and the protest would not be allowed.





> The official said the show would have to wait while this took place and so a protest would not be allowed


You can go to the meetings & have another dozen rules put in place BUT UNTIL they are followed your time has been wasted (my opinion)............ The problem is HOW can you MAKE the show chairpeople (AMHA) follow their own rules? All the promises in the world can be made to get you there but those promises have to be followed up by fair actions to all exhibitors......... Best of luck to you & all the members involved in trying to get integrity in this situation.................. (I am assuming the rule is there to allow the protest but the exhibitors right to do so was not allowed). I guess you can demand that AMHA pay a fine per incident when they did NOT follow their own rules................................... BTW, Lee & I have been showing at AMHA shows since 1986 so its not like I'm forming my opinion from others experiences and not our own.. As in the past, lots of people have voiced their opinion by taking their money elsewhere. Not bad mouthing anyone, just telling it like it is.


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## LisaF. (Oct 10, 2005)

Charlotte,

Thank you for posting.

I will be honest...we bought a show filly about 3 years ago...but, after alot of research ...my mother and I decided together we should NOT show in the AMHA ...( the filly we bought was AMHA Only)...we felt we did not stand a chance because our farm is not well known...and we have heard year after year about these things happening...so, why spend a fortune if you do not feel like you have a chance?

I am sure I am not the only person that feels this way...so, AMHA is really hurting theirselves on the showing...but, I also love AMHA for the fact of DNA, etc.


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## LisaF. (Oct 10, 2005)

Cathy,

You are so right...even if we have the rule...how do we make sure they are inforced?


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## tagalong (Oct 10, 2005)

Hmmmm - a horse I knew a couple of years ago (and no longer have connections with) at _*cough*_ 34" _*cough*_ .... was showing in the 32 -34" class all this season.... and yet turned up in the 30 - 32" class at Worlds. This would not be a case of measuring 32 1/4 at one show and then 32 at another. This particular horse is not hovering _anywhere_ in the vicinity of 32"..... and yet - there the horse was. I was.... shall we say..._surprized_.









I had hoped that the rumours of people saying _"how tall do you WANT your horse to be..." _were not true...


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 10, 2005)

> 2. Second incident. An owner had a 28" horse entered in the 28" and under class. One of the horses also entered in the 28" and under class was the Regional Champion 28" -30". The horse was originally entered in the World show 28" - 30" class. The show record of that horse was reviewed and it had been shown all year in 28"-30". The owner of the 28" horse filed a protest. The protested horse then measured over 29".
> The trainer of the 28" horse then refused to show that horse in his class because "trainers have to stick together" (this quote is what the owner repeated to me) resulting in the loss of a possible World Championship for the horse and much pain and financial loss for the owner. (the trainer is also a judge which leads us to other issues)


OK......Somebody PLEASE explain this to me as I must be dense. I can see a horse growing taller, but how the heck does one become smaller. Regional Champion in 28" thur 30"???????????????? And then wants to show the horse in a smaller class?????????? Sorry this is just BLATANT CHEATING!

And that POMPOUS butt of a trainer should have his butt sued.........and I am not a person who would think to sue anyone. But those people paid their bills all year and that Trainer (plueezeee) had a PROFESSIONAL OBLIGATION. No matter what the story was a service was paid for.


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## lyn_j (Oct 10, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]You know I had been toying with getting carbon Progeny hardshipped this year.... she is 3 and her full sister is amha as well as R but she was born after the stallion was hardshipped. Also have a 32.5 3 year old that I was going to put in when he was 5 but why should I spend 300 dollars on Carbon and 1200 on Sweet Tart if the nationals are THAT biased and unfairly run. Yes I know that there are horses at R that I believed to be over the 38 mark showing in the B classes and horses that were Bs showing in A classes so it does happen and it is usually the bigger trainers that do alot of winning that have these horses..... No one questions thier heights and I was standing behind one of them once when the trainer said to the steward....this horse IS 32....... thats where he needs to measure and the stick barely went near the horse but I wasnt sure what I was seeing so I didnt feel I could say anything.[/SIZE]

It must have been really bad at Worlds for this much rukus to be raised.... I dont think we heard that much about Rs this year.

Lyn


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## MInx (Oct 10, 2005)

Gosh, guess I'm glad I can't afford the very best! Too much strain on the brain! What a mess, and I bet you ALL started out just wanting to love and enjoy these little horses..

We'll just show 4-H, enjoy the fun and forget trying to buy that fancy show prospect..in our circumstance we made a concerted discision to "keep life simple"

I love ALL horses and completely respect all of you that are dedicated enough to go through all this bunk..I KNOW it's the best way to further the breed, but geez!

Maxine


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## Bess Kelly (Oct 10, 2005)

Measuring has ALWAYS been an issue.....always has and always will be!!!

Most want to be a the top size of their class (i.e28-30, be at or very close to 30).......with that, often many are actually over. It's how the animal stands sometimes, how the last hair is determined sometime, and who you are many times. Some trainers have a couple the same size, want to keep both horses, can't show both in same class -- ONE must go into another size. Hmmmm.

I have personally been "the measurer" for a sanctioned show and when a mare who would NEVER be under 35.5 unless you amputated was brought to measure (driving class) I advised this trainer she was over. All crap broke loose (let me tell you that ANYONE would recognize him if I posted a picture!!!!!!!!) But, I am not one to be denied my opinion. We re-measured and then the owner came over (who advised I must be wrong as the animal had shown all year in this class) DUH ......and we began to measure and put a level on the concrete pad. OK, it was off in one spot by 1/4"........I was not going for the cheat strip being mane, I was not letting the mare stretch, I was NOT backing down. No way an 1"+ could come off the hoof. This absolutely stunning mare was scratched. The owner fussed, fumed and said he was filing a complaint with AMHA, I got the forms and handed them to him, advising "I wish you would...then this matter will never come up again as you will lose your A papers and you have a gorgeous B mare!".

There is nothing wrong with a B horse, just don't show them in the A classes. And, there were a couple of others who decided to "switch to the taller classes" before measurement.





What happened to the "measuring steward program" that was mentioned about 4-5 years ago? That seemed to die out -- an "official" carded measurer would be required at each AMHA sanctioned show, etc. I wanted to do that myself. Sure did -- hey, I was protested at Nationals one year AND re-measured still in the class!!!!!!!

I THANKED the man afterward, for thinking we were such a threat. And YES, this horse was dead ON the mark to 1/4 below....but, not over it.

I heartily agree that we need to make changes.....and I agree with Charlotte, when we CANNOT vote unless at a meeting, we DO NOT go to those meetings, well -- we have to take more poop that we shovel.

It is NO SECRET that measurements are an issue and often not correct.

It is also NO SECRET (just whispered notions) of many well known names being a part of this "over/under" club (over the size/under the rule).

Anyone have a solution? probably not. It's pretty hard to resolve. Weight would be ok.....hey scales can be calibrated.....but THE SPOT, and THE STANCE, and THE HAIR are all somewhat arbitrary, it seems.

At least that is often the concensus when challenges are brought.

Is it that no one wants to "ruffle feathers"? Look, those who do this and know it can change, the horses can be improved in the smaller sizes to be as elegant as those who are 34" (+) and if we are a height breed then I feel THAT IS WHERE we need to go. If your only elegant horse is over 34" then take it to the AMHR registry and show, and win!! It's not shameful. And many are NOT over 34", just over the CLASS size the entrant wants them to be within. If you show, why not be in the correct class! ? Competition too tough? Trainer too full? What???????





Maybe that "what reason" is where we need to look for guidance. Do we see it more in the 34" or in other select groupings? Possibly the answer lies in combining some sizes --- 30 & under as one, over 30-34 as #2.....or all sizes up to 34" and separate by age.........or....?

For me, I feel if my horse is good enough to be in a particular class it should be good enough to compete with all of them........no matter the size. I'm not unable to see that the stride on a tall horse is different than on a short one, etc....but, I am also not unable to see that 1-3" is not the reason for winning decisions. It is merely that if we have concocted classes based on height, we need to stay in them......or flat out change them. At many mini fun shows there is a "mare's halter" class, no height -- usually jr/sr for age, but not height (except max), OR A and B classes. Something to ponder.

I'd LOVE to see a solution -- so we could all play fair and be happy, not annoyed and feeling cheated.


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## Minimor (Oct 10, 2005)

I wasn't at R Nationals this year so didn't see for myself, but the person who told me this did see it going on--I consider him a reliable source, as he is not into idle gossip & isn't the sort to make things like this up--horses were being measured to fit the size the owner wanted them to be. On more than one occasion the stick wasn't even on the ground when the horse was being measured.

Sooner or later I expect the sh$% will hit the fan & this is all going to get cleaned up in both registries, but I wonder how soon it's going to happen. Like has already been said--it's not a matter of changing the rules, it's a matter of enforcing the rules that are already in place.

I did think that with AMHA having the videotaping of the measuring it would help make things honest; I also thought it would help when they put in the new rule about the handler being unable to touch the horse until the stick is removed...only apparently the problem is with the stick??


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## Millstone Farm (Oct 10, 2005)

My Two Cents:

I only had 2 horses to measure for the AMHA World Show this year. One measured 1/2" taller than he has all year (but was still in his height class), and my filly measured smaller than she did at home by 3/4". Both were measured once, not stretched/pushed/crunched.

I heard that measuring was much easier this year than last. Last year was a nightmare for many whose horses didn't measure where they needed to be (or where the connections wanted them to be).

Not that I'm trying to ruffle feathers here because I think this is a serious issue that needs to be discussed and resolved, but I have to remind everyone that the measurements of each and every horse is posted on the walls just outside the arena for all to see.

There has been more than one occasion where I have seen exhibitors/owners/trainers checking those heights and know of times when horses have been protested then and there as the measurement was written. That's why AMHA makes the measurements public. Granted -- many of us don't know who each and every horse is (but trainers do!). I myself wouldn't be familiar with most of the horses and whether they measured "right" or not. Maybe there's a way to call more attention to those measurements? Who knows.

Concerning the protest that wasn't allowed: Did the horse in question show in a prior class at the World Show? If that's the case then that would be why the protest was not allowed, as the rule states that a protest must be filed before the horse sets foot in the show ring (for any class -- even the costume class!).

If that isn't the case, then you are right to be outraged and I'm right there with you!

I also would love to know who the trainer was who opted for solidary with his/her fellow trainers over the horse's owners who filed the protest.

2 or 3 years ago I heard of someone who was physically threatened if he/she chose to go ahead with their height protest. The person was also told to tell their trainer to watch his back because this person would personally protest each and every one of their horses at this show and every other one where they crossed paths.


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## Cathy_H (Oct 10, 2005)

> Did the horse in question show in a prior class at the World Show? If that's the case then that would be why the protest was not allowed, as the rule states that a protest must be filed before the horse sets foot in the show ring (for any class -- even the costume class!).


If this is the case then I feel it needs to be changed. There is no way I can know the height of every horse that is going to be in my class at every show.... Prior to my class if I find out that a horse should obviously be in another height class then I should still be allowed to put up or shut up.


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## pepperhill (Oct 10, 2005)

We have similar things happen at the R shows around here as well. I have only seen a few height problems, but the big name problems run rampant. There are 4 or 5 big "Names" that win absolutely everything, from the regional shows to something as simple as the state fair. Now, while I understand that someone with a great breeding base can turn out many, many winners, I have watched many times as these same names take all the wins and yet there were clearly better horses in the arena. (and I don't mean mine!



) I don't know how to make this end, but I know that I don't bother to show much anymore. You're right, why just throw away money? I only show where my little daughters stand a chance. Linda


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 10, 2005)

I will warn you all at the start-this is going to be long...

FINALLY, this is being spoken about openly. IMO,It is long overdue, but I am thankful to see this day. Perhaps it just took 'pushing the envelope', at last, too far...?

I am encouraged by the so-far, number of thoughtful posts in this thread(and I look forward to,hopefully, many more, as people come forward to express their feelings, opinions, and experiences on this subject.)

First, my own outlook....I have shown AMHA almost exclusively, since 1986. I have never had any concerns about what size RANGE my horses fall within, as long as they were WITHIN the parameters set by the AMHA RULES. Like Bess Kelly(whose post, BTW, I was honored to read!), I believe that if my horse is good enough to be there, it can compete without "having" to show in a certain size range. I have studied the measurement rules closely; I spent the $ on an 'official' stick, the Sligo stick, many years ago, because I wanted to really and truly KNOW how tall my horses were/are--I have "practiced" measurement a LOT, and am quite sure of my abilities, and correctness, in that area. When I took my now 19 year old, 33 3/4" gelding to my first AMHA Nationals in 1991, I had been told how strict the measuring was--and it WAS -no nonsense, and RIGHT on the money, on every horse I personally KNEW the correct height of. Fast forward to the most recent Nationals I have participated in, a few short years ago. I stood astonished as my two horses each measured nearly an inch shorter than I knew them to be-with an 'eminently qualified' person doing the measuring!(That this 'generousity' of measurement has now extended even further is NO surprise to me, as I predicted as much, and have seen it expanding with each passing year).

Here is my opinion/thoughts on what has brought our AMHA from one point to the other...I believe that the increased interest in driving is a part of it(the perception that longer legs makes for better movement..?? Along with that, the trend of trying to make minis look more like certain full-sized breeds has likely played a part-not necessarily a bad thing, but with a number of consequences-and of course, 'we' are always in a hurry to accomplish changes. Big money, or the desire for same, and big wins, or the desire for same, are most certainly a large factor, IMO. Increasing arrogance on the part of some who feel that they and their 'services and/or their 'products'(in the form of horses, and/or 'training')are indispensible to the organization, are in my view definitely a part of it. Finally, an organization that is fearful of "upsetting" some of those arrogant, IMPORTANT(read, in many cases-not all, but many)and yes, often(again,not always, but....)'moneyed' folks-owners and trainers alike-by actually upholding the rules, and backing up the folks out there in the trenches at the local shows-and so, doesn't seem willing to do so, is perhaps the saddest factor.(Sidebar: how is it likely to affect local shows to make it so that there are few to no requirements to qualify for the Regional Championships/World Shows? Such shows don't require NO work, and NO cost, to the sponsoring organizations, yet they benefit the national organization....?)

Is correct measurement really all that "iffy"? In my opinion, NOt AT ALL--with certain caveats. FIRST, one MUST have a genuinely level spot on which to measure(and it is my belief that the lack of same is the major reason for the many anecdotal stories of wide variation in measurement.) Believe me when I say that this has been a subject of intense interest and study to me for a number of years, especially for the past 6-8, as I began to notice this 'trend' toward taller and taller horses being allowed to show-that is the approximate time frame, as I have observed it. A concrete or asphalt surface, in itself, is NO guarantee that it is level. I have a barn with a 12' wide concrete aisle, but I have been all OVER it with a carpenter's level(which I have checked,as I do with my Sligo, periodically for accuracy), and MUCH of it is not genuinely level. When I did find a spot where it was demonstrably level in a 4' x 2' (minimum) area, I marked it off, and that is where I measure horses. Then, you must adhere absolutely to the (current)rulebook requirements-of a horse standing square, head in normal position and straight in front, no hands on-AND, location of the last hair of the mane. IMO, anyone who can see properly, and has fingers to feel, can determine the final mane hairs, regardless of strips of body hair left behind. Firm contact upon the horse's back at the 'last hairs' point, making sure the foot of the stick is firmly and flatly planted on the clean floor, and the centering of the bubble in a calibrated stick-and you have an accurate measurement. Can there be a bit of variation? Yes-BUT, it is minimal. I have led(mature, and in comparable weight/condition) horses in a circle, measured again; measured in hot weather and cold, in clipped hair coats and full winter fuzz--a 1/4" variation has sometimes been seen, on RARE occasions, a bit more-but NEVER have I observed, under the above conditions, a height difference of over 1/2"--and as I said, only VERY rarely, that. Have I measured a horse dry, then wet and shivering? No, because that would be stupid-a horse bowed up and shivering is not a candidate for an accurate measurement, period.

I have seen the videotape set-up; IMO, the only video set-up which 'might'(I am not a videographer) be genuinely helpful in determining measurement according to the rules would be one which shot directly from above straight down toward the horses' back-with no impediment to that view. While accompanying a friend who was horse shopping at Nationals after my own direct experience in the measurement, I noticed a marking on a horse's back. The owner (not a 'name' in the industry) told us that was put there at measurement,indicating where the horse had been measured--it was a full two inches down the back from this horse's last mane hair! In the case of my own two horses the year before, this was also what was done-in my horses' case(one of which, BTW, is a GENUINE 34" horse; the other, a genuine 33 1/2"), it was about 1 1/2" behind where the last mare hairs emerged.

I believe that the "favored few" began benefitting from 'generous' measurement some years ago; then, as grumbles began to be voiced, the "policy" became one of making pretty sure that just about everyone 'benefitted from" this generousity, at least at the highest level(and then, voila! what happened with my own horses--the rationale being-who complains when their horse/horses measures SHORTER?) Had I complained about mine, and they were remeasured at their true heights-which are correctly WITHIN THE RULES, what would have been accomplished? Truly, it is my personal belief that this is what was anticipated, whether as "official" policy or not---clever, though....

As evidenced by the experience of those who tried, and those who actually did, protest, at the just-completed Worlds, there is a 'wall'(and I believe it has gotten, and is daily getting, higher and stronger!) of denial and resistance to going back to following the rules. THIS, I think, has become our biggest hurdle to restoring the integrity of our organization, and the most serious of problems.(A good friend DID complain to the then-highest eschelon over what both she, I, and others directly observed--several years ago-there 'seemed to be' improvement, but now, it's back to the 'same old, same old"....) I absolutely believe that the "trainer" who refused to show the protesting owners' horse should be not only 'outed'-what colossal ARROGANCE this 'trainer' exhibited!! - but also be sued(and I do not usually see litigation as an option....). There has come to be an absolute EXPECTATION(entitlement?)of being allowed in with horses that, as Bess alluded to, could not make 34" without amputation---I have seen more and more of them-some even belong to people I know-and BTW, as a trained artist, I have a VERY good eye-though it's not rocket science, when your 34" horse is standing right next to a horse that TOWERS over it.....(I will not comment on what I think of the bottom-line ethics of continuing to take horses you KNOW to be too tall for the limits-whether it be A OR R-where, I suspect, this is, sadly, also occurring-just because you can "get away with it".....-but I will say, it is not MY style.) There are some of these 'tall' horses who appear again and again; others who have shown, won big, disappeared from the ring-usually to a lucrative breeding career....and I believe it would be provable, if one took the time to go over lots of show records, that MOST of these belong to owners/are shown by trainers/ are exhibited by exhibitors, who travel and/or spend a good bit of money, showing AMHA. Hence the 'stick' they hold over the heads of the shows and the breed association---who 'dares' to enforce the rules(which, as an old teacher and student of psychology, I can assure you, becomes MUCH more difficult when they haven't been/hardly have been, enforced before)?? How are local shows, where lots of members are doing lots of hard, usually volunteer, work with an often two-fold purpose--to help support their own club's activities, and to support the breed organization, when if they try to follow the rules, 'big names' practice intimidation techniques/temper tantrums? This HAPPENS-I have known of it up-close--and will continue to, unless and until a CONCERTED effort is made, across the industry and most importantly,BY the GENERAL membership-yes, us average folks who are in this because we LOVE the horses, and working with them, and yes, want to enjoy a level playing field, and to be able to depend on OUR organization to mean what it says, and to FOLLOW its own rules(or, to change them, if that's what the majority want)across the board! Bottom line? It is WRONG to give anyone(or everyone, for that matter) a "pass" to sidestep the rules. If you have a gorgeous horse that goes over 34", then you should have a gorgeous AMHR horse. The rules are available to EVERYONE who wishes to take the time to read them; if you do, you are well aware that miniatures are a HEIGHT breed, and if you have one that grows above the rulebook height(s), you are out of luck. That's life.

I admire Charlotte for her courageous post. She is absolutely right-and we(and I am certainly including myself)are the ones who have to take positive action. Though I was the chair(as I have been for a number of years)of our club's show committee, I let them know ahead of time this year that I would NOT be present for the measurement at our club-sponsored show, for I knew what was coming. I was asked to do the measuring at the recent NM State Fair AMHA show-I refused, as I am active in my club, and did not feel it correct for any active member to perform this job at any show whose participants are mostly also local club members. I know what I now MUST do-I, too, have been guilty of 'crying and moaning' over the situation, but have not taken the action I should have. I simply do not have the financial wherewithal to go to the National meetings, except possible on the rarest of occasions-that's just the way it is--but, I CAN contact my area rep, I CAN write/email the "powers-that-be"---and I will. I HOPE it will be with support, from others who have had enough, and want very much to bring this association, that I am a longtime Life member of, and whose "products"-the horses-I love with all my heart--back to one we all can be proud of, in EVERY aspect.

If a large number of people are willing to stand up and be counted, this actually COULD be made right. It is my FERVENT hope that here, on this Forum, there is a starting point for such an action!!


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## Dontworrybeappy (Oct 10, 2005)

Vertical Limit Minis said:


> Hummmmmmmm................now this is all making better sense to me.  I got a few calls on this and couldn't really make heads or tails of the stories I was hearing.  But now I understand.  And I have to say that is why I show ARABS!  If they break a rule during Nationals, for instance, a shoe being over weight or hoof being too long, they get their BUTTS DISQUALIFIED IMMEDIATELY!!! And all prizes taken away. What good are rules if they are not followed thru with.  Especially the ones that were proven right on the spot.  UGH!  You can have it.
> 481980[/snapback]
> ​


[SIZE=14pt]Yep, that happened once... and changed the whole rules of figuring championships for the years after that, once the horse was taken out and I think 3rd place ended up Champion over the Reserve! Arab shows and the "trainers sticking together" as well as trainers judging trainers... and the highly inflated prices is a huge part of why I moved from showing Arabians to Minis. (guess I'm glad now more AMHR shows than AMHA!) That and lawsuits, cosmetic surgery and abuse this and that and just not having fun in the Arab game anymore, even though my horse and his foals were winning at the higer levels.[/SIZE]

Greed, corruption and selfishness exist whenever and wherever humans compete with each other about anything. It sucks. I guess we each have to pick what we're willing to fight for, and in the horse show world, what we can AFFORD to fight for, and make our own choices. More and more I'm hitting the wall of "it all depends on how much money you're willing to throw at it" at shows.

I mean, come on - what does winning mean (in any animal or breed show) if you can afford to buy the best of the best and breed hundreds of babies a year, choose amongst the best of those babies, send several of them to several trainers, buy huge blocks of stalls to show off the huge amounts of money you're able and willing to spend, buy huge blocks of ads, ad space in the arena, etc. Pretty much gonna guarantee you come home with some awards!!

I'm not saying that's a bad thing... if that's what floats your boat and you have the huge amounts of money to play the game at that level - more power to you! (only you don't need more power, since $$ *is* power in the game!)





This is why many breed associations and many groups of people like the ones on this board spend so much time trying to figure out "what is FAIR to all of us" - since MOST of us don't HAVE that kind of money even though we want to play the game too. The facts are that life isn't fair - and neither are the games we play, so we all have to decide what parts of the games we each can live with and what we can each be happy with.

In an ideal world, we'd all be happy and healthy all the time. I don't see that happening and I struggle daily with how I can best deal with reality and still have some measure of happiness... so no, I don't have all the answers - just more questions like the rest of us. Anyone who has the answers, though.... PLEASE let me know what they are!


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## Buckskin gal (Oct 10, 2005)

I applaud all of you who want to see the rules followed.









Even I would be more enthused about showing if they were. What can I do to help....just a little fish in a big lake!


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## [email protected] (Oct 10, 2005)

I would agree with Charlotte on this one - the only reason most of this crap goes on is we as members don't bother to go to the meetings and we do not make ourselves heard! Remember we must be there in person as, we're not capable of mail in voting on issues to difficult!!! We allow unfair practices and illegal activities to go on without doing anything.

It isn't easy to commit your time and dollars to attending the meetings but it is crucial to do so. I didn't go to the one in MN this year - sorry way to cold to be there in February (no offense MN members, I'm a California girl and we do turn into popsicles below 32 degrees!), but I am planning on attending the meeting in Florida. I would go to the AMHR meetings, but extracting info on when/where they are seems to be difficult or at least not well publicized.

As for the measuring - it's a joke - at local, regional and the national level. I tell buyers that even as the ones that really study in earnest about measuring and are concerned about heights if they show or not. The measuring needs to be at the withers like any other horses is measured. Writing an acceptable proposal though is the tricky part. To many breeders have invested to much in their 'in size' horses to participate. If it could be written to beginning say three-five years in the future and all horses born by x year are 'grandfathered in' at their current height we should all be able to comply. I know it will never happen, but I can dream!

I mentioned this in another post, but this past summer I was with friends and listened to a trainer say that at least the horse wasn't going to need to have tail hair cut and glued on to make the mane longer - I was dumbfounded! I don't know if this trainer does this or not, but just the fact that someone cheats in this way - what is the point?

Another trainer told me how some trainers will purposely sore a horses back so it will dip and in affect give a shorter measurement to a taller horse. One of mine that I bought last year does that - he measures shorter at every show than I measure at home - I guess my stick is better oiled so he doesn't hear the squeak!

Sorry, but I can't imagine or be that devious to think up ways to cheat like that!

It is overall very frustrating.

** Whomever has the names of the trainers involved with this 28"under/over incident, I would love to hear the details - please PM me.


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## lyn_j (Oct 10, 2005)

[SIZE=14pt]Another measuring issue relating to this is people , yes big well known farms with high dollar horses are keeping amha papers on their horses that are over including some of the stallions they say are still amha. I have stood next to two of these stallions and know that they are well over 34. Yet their get are going to the shows and thru the big sales as amha reg out of amha parents. Maybe this is contributing to the generous measurements as well not to step on toes of those that are in the spotlight or ruin future sales. IF the horse is over 34 send the papers back and show in amhr..... every generation will get taller if this isnt enforced. I personally like the B size better but I feel there is alot of disservice being done by breeders with truly 35-36 inch well known stallions keeping their A papers or even the mares for that matter. I may be too afraid to lodge complaints but at least I send the papers back when my horses go over even by 1/2 inch! Why dont these others?[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## Belinda (Oct 10, 2005)

[email protected] said:


> I would go to the AMHR meetings, but extracting info on when/where they are seems to be difficult or at least not well publicized.
> 
> It is not difficult to get the information for the AMHR/ASPC National Meeting, It is always published in the Journal just as AMHA does theirs, and also on the web site , and if all else fails call the National Office they will be glad to tell you.. It is
> 
> AMHR NATIONAL CONVENTION


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 10, 2005)

> Yep, that happened once... and changed the whole rules of figuring championships for the years after that, once the horse was taken out and I think 3rd place ended up Champion over the Reserve! Arab shows and the "trainers sticking together" as well as trainers judging trainers... and the highly inflated prices is a huge part of why I moved from showing Arabians to Minis. (guess I'm glad now more AMHR shows than AMHA!) That and lawsuits, cosmetic surgery and abuse this and that and just not having fun in the Arab game anymore, even though my horse and his foals were winning at the higer levels.


Karen, I should not even offer a response. Happening ONCE that someones prize was taken away? You have no idea what you are talking about. It happens every year. And judging systems changed to accomodate one particular person? Nope......sorry. Just not true. I just have to laugh at the misinformation that spreads thru any breed.

How many Nationals have you been too to make such statements? Really, I would like to know. I venture to say not many as many, as many things are changing within the breed as more and more people stand and say... HEY WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH! You can't sit in your own little corner of the World and listen to hear say. I have heard enough BS to last a lifetime. And most of it is BS. It's a shame that rumors run so rampant but it's part of what it takes for some to feel important.

As for the prices...........a horse is worth what a person is willing to pay for it. And I will tell you that I personally have owed atleast 6 National Champions that I paid less than 10k for. Halter as well as performance. I could also list tons of horses that high prices were not paid. And if you could not cut it in the breed don't make the typical excuses, politics, high prices, bla, bla. You don't have to pay big money for a horse to win. All you need is a good eye eye and some good and honest mentors. There are plenty, And I am talking about winning on a National level. I can hold my head up knowing what I have accomplished and knowing that I did not cheat to get it done. Now if you would like to discuss Arabs further you may PM me with your phone number and I will be glad to talk with you further. You might just learn something. This Forum is not about Arabs...............I made a statement about why I show them and I stand by it. And that's all I have to say as it's not worth my breath. It takes small steps to turn into bigger steps. And that is what will make change.

*Bottom line is WHAT IS THE MINIATURE HORSE BREED GOING TO DO TO CHANGE WHAT IS HAPPENING. What trainers are going to take the risk and stand up and say enough is enough like certain Arabian trainer did?????????????? *And guess what? It's working! Will it ever be perfect..........NO.........but it's sure a far cry from even 5 years ago.

And edited for my horrendous spelling.






Carol


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## LaVern (Oct 10, 2005)

The AMHR has official stewards, and it must be an awful hard job. I have heard rumors tht even when they tried to play it straight that the board didn't have the guts to back them up.

I have also heard that this is Dicks last year as head of the Stewards and that he will not be top gun next year at Nationals.

Now, I hope that whoever fills his boots as head steward for next year is up to it. I really don't know who would have the nerve to butt heads with some of those boys.

But again, if enough of us can get over the--" I won't do anything cause I hope I can get my horse in the this or that class,"-- and let the chips fall as they may, We can do something by protesting..PROTEST PROTEST PROTEST. Bring that show to a stop.

It is time that the exhibitors stand up and stop cowtoeing to the trainers and the bullies. It is time the trainers learned who butters their bread.

It is a little harder to protest height in the AMHR as you have to have a horse in the class, but if a few of us sat on those tables with the forms and handed out 50.00 to those that needed it fast, we could do it.

I know this is more of an AMHA thread, but the same trainers are involved and when I see one of them come in with a horse that I could work cows on all day, I know that it is to large for my B horses to compete with. There is only 4inches difference between the tallest A and the tallest B and that is not very much.


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## MiniHGal (Oct 10, 2005)

How embarrassing....



And that trainer...oooooo





Gee, does this mean I can go and show Fascination in AMHA?? She's only 35"!! Geesh, even if I could get away with that(which it sounds like I could), I wouldn't--it is just wrong when you know your horse doesn't meet the standards.


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## Fred (Oct 10, 2005)

I personally have two 32" on the line mares. They were in the 30-32 inch class at

several shows. There was one mare owned by a well known person and shown by

a well known trainer in the class. This mare was at least an inch or more over my

girls. This mare was not shown this year, had she been I probably would have

protested it. Most of my horses are right on the line [either 32 or 34]. If you are a

small owner or breeder without a well known trainer and you have a super horse

on the line they will be measured out. Been there done that got that t-shirt. I dont

show AMHA only. I mainly show AMHR I prefer the bigger horses and if the horse

measures over I'll show them B. AMHR also has stewards which does somewhat

help but abuses still occur. The measuring for AMHA has been 'the good old boys

club' for a long time. I was really disappointed this year with the open judging

at AMHR nationals this year because it was the same AMHA judges trainer baloney

IMO. I know others may not agree but I witnessed MANY blatant unprofesional

things, and yes I am working with other members and officials to correct the

problems. Charlotte is right if you sit on your duff it ain't gonna get fixed.

Support your association, it is yours you pay the dues, and don't tolerate the vow

of silence. Without owners and members judges, trainers, stewards don't have a

job. Linda B


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## walter (Oct 10, 2005)

Charlotte, I was unable to attend any day at the world show this year .... who was the measuring person? Thanks.

Clara


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## Dontworrybeappy (Oct 10, 2005)

Vertical Limit Minis said:


> Karen, I should not even offer a response.Â  Happening ONCE that someones prize was taken away?Â  You have no idea what you are talking about.Â  It happens every year.Â  And judging systems changed to accomodate one particular person?Â  Nope......sorry.Â  Just not true.Â   I just have to laugh at the misinformation that spreads thru any breed.
> How many Nationals have you been too to make such statements? Really, I would like to know.Â  I venture to say not many as many,Â  as many things are changing within the breed as more and more people stand and say... HEY WE HAVE HAD ENOUGH!Â  You can't sit in your own little corner of the World and listen to hear say.Â  I have heard enough BS to last a lifetime.Â  And most of it is BS.Â  It's a shame that rumors run so rampant but it's part of what it takes for some to feel important.Â
> 
> As for the prices...........a horse is worth what a person is willing to pay for it.Â  And I will tell you that I personally have owed and trained atleast 6 National Champions that I paid less than 10k for. Halter as well as performance.Â  I could also list tons of horses that high prices were not paid.Â   And if you could not cut it in the breed don't make the typical excuses, politics, high prices, bla, bla.Â  You don't haveÂ  to pay big money for a horse to win. All you need is a good eye eye and some good and honest mentors.Â  there are plenty,Â  And I am talking about winning on a National level.Â  I can hold my head up knowing what I have accomplished and knowing that I did not cheat to get it done.Â  Now if you would like to discuss Arabs further you may PM me with your phone number and I will be glad to talk with you further.Â  You might just learn something.Â  This Forum is not about Arabs...............I made a statement about why I show them and I stand by it.Â  And that's all I have to say as it's not worth my breath.Â  It takes small steps to turn into bigger steps.Â  And that is what will make change.
> ...


I guess you shouldn't have - (responded, that is) as it's clear you completely missed the meaning of any of the words in my post.

You mentioned a specific incident and I elaborated that it did indeed happen and caused a major upheaval in the breed rules! I didn't make a list of every single thing that's ever happened, but the point is that there are as many problems with AHA (or back then IAHA and AHR) as there are in AMHA and AMHR and any other show entity.

By the way, which certain Arabian Trainer are you referring to? I don't remember hearing about one trainer fixing all the problems in the breed... if I missed it, tell me which issue if AHW, AHT, AHN or AH to look it up in and I'll go out to the garage and sort through the 50 years worth of Arabian magazines out there - again!

What is the miniature horse breed going to do? nothing - the breed is not the show ring, thank goodness! It's the people who'll have to do something, and by and large, the people who are most upset aren't able to afford to make most of the changes.

In these groups, in ANY breed, the minority that can afford to do the traveling to conventions, committees and such are the ones who make the rules. The trainers who devote massive amounts of time (since this is how they make their livings!) are also more in positions to influence the rules than the average member of the breed organization.

THe majority of breeders are the small ones. The majority of owners don't even show. Yet the majority of the majority's time is spent discussing how unfair the game is to the majority, while the minority reap the rewards in the ring. Them's facts. That's the game.

Of course there are a few exceptions - I've been lucky enough to be the exception a few times myself, both in Arabians and Miniatures! I guess that's what keeps us all wanting to play the game along with the folks who can do it without thinking about the checkbook!

Like I was saying, I wish I knew how to make life fair for everyone, but I haven't figured out that magic yet. So is that why you felt the need to make a personal attack on me? I kinda thought we were on the same side until you attacked me!


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 10, 2005)

> Like I was saying, I wish I knew how to make life fair for everyone, but I haven't figured out that magic yet. So is that why you felt the need to make a personal attack on me? I kinda thought we were on the same time until you attacked!


Not an attack at all. I am sorry you felt that way as it was not my true intention. Just responding to certain things you said that are just not true. I am just sick to death misinformation. Sorry but you are the one that made the comments you did and I am more than happy to discuss any one of them with you privately.

And if I misread you post than I apologize.

Now if you do not know the trainer that stood up and changed the ginger rule and is now fighting the whole retouched photo issues, not my problem. It's not exactly a huge secret. Again, you may email me or whatever. I am always available to discuss anything. And I don't deal in rumor, I deal in fact.

*An edited to say *that one person does not fix everything in any breed. But it takes only one person to start the ball rolling. And that is the message I am trying to get across here.

And the answer Karen, is exactly what I have already said. Stand up for what you believe in and don't let one group of people intimidate you. (and no I don't mean you personally) It's not an easy road and you will not be well liked for awhile. But guess what? You will be respected in the long run. And you will have your integrity and I can't think of anything worth more than my integrity.

Carol


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## tagalong (Oct 10, 2005)

> What trainers are going to take the risk and stand up and say enough is enough like certain Arabian trainer did??????????????Â


I had heard that a certain trainer in Texas (can we say names or not?) did just that. And chose not to show those horses who were over the measurements they were "supposed" to be. And go against "the system"... "the club"... call it what you will...

The egotistical trainer who would NOT show a client's horse after that protest... SHOULD be outed by that client (not that most of us do not know who it was by now) ... and SHOULD face the music. I don't care how high a mucky-muck you think you are - that is poor behaviour - like a pouty 5 year old. Can you say UNPROFESSIONAL??? Word spreads anyway - and I hope such actions only come back to bite one in the butt.... or at least - I hope so.






Boycotting shows or not showing is not the answer. Get in there and participate.... and protest ANY irregularities. At meetings - at shows - wherever.


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## minisch (Oct 10, 2005)

AMHA is to blame..... The Worlds and Regionals should always have stringent height measurements. They did it last year and alot of people (big name) farms got screwed because there horses, who have been shown by a trainer all year in divisions they shouldn't be, got thrown in with the bigger guys..... They all whined and complained so this is what happened. Who started the problem, the trainers. Knowing the numbers will go down the AMHA caved.... gave into the politics and the greed.

Your right Charlotte, we are also to blame..... but so aren't the trainers and the AMHA. If it becomes policy that at all Regionals and Worlds horses must be measured by the strictest standards... i.e. laser, video taping, several witness's etc.

If the trainers and us regulars know what the rules will be ahead of time we won't try and break them


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## Cherokee Rose (Oct 10, 2005)

I think this topic is well over due!!! I think it's a Sad day for AMHR and AMHA



this has been coming for sometime ; both registries have promoted themselves to famlies and youth and this is what their teaching them..........to lie, cheat, and steal!! Its is sad when a person cannot take a good honest horse out and win a ribbon with him.......not so many years ago you could and that is when these registries really took off; like someone else said here who do they think is buttering their bread.....it has been the famliys who thought they were promoting registries with some honesty!! And I know this is the real world........but I'm with Lavern some of these horses you could work cows off of



I say enough is enough!!.........Carrie


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 10, 2005)

Ok well i am not going to get into the arguing on measuring in and not and who does and doesnt..but I will say I hear in this thread plenty of people saying there horses cant go out and win only the big names can win well I am here to tell youthat just plain isnt true

my daughter has gone out there with her little gelding and come home with a top ten - me the big ol show doofus has gone out there in ammy and come out with a top ten so while the world of showing isnt perfect (and not just in our breed or not just in horses) it is very possible for the little guy to work hard and get out there and do well.

I just didnt want that aspect to get lost in the other realities of this thread


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## LaVern (Oct 10, 2005)

This thread has taken up all of my thinking space for awhole day. I can't seem to get it out of my mind. But I do have to say one more thing. I would like to apologize to all the good trainers out there. And there are lots of them. I should have not lumped them all together.

There couldn't be a kinder, nicer,more honest person in the world than my Michelle.

But ones like that GUY, whoever he is, make me crazy.


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## pam (Oct 10, 2005)

I also noticed the discrepancy in the height in my horse's class. My horse measured at 27 3/4 at an R show this summer. At the AMHA World, she measured 27 1/4. However, she was noticeably smaller than all the other horses. The Champion and Reserve in her class were..... can you guess - 28 inches.

I heard that they were letting anything in the classes. This is not a good policy for sure, and just sets everything up for really bad feelings all the way around. Since I am a newbie at the shows, I am just beginning to see how things work.

I would love to have someone PM me about the name of the trainer who was involved with the threats of the boycott.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Oct 10, 2005)

LaVern said:


> This thread has taken up all of my thinking space for awhole day.  I can't seem to get it out of my mind.  But I do have to say one more thing.  I would like to apologize to all the good trainers out there.  And there are lots of them. I should have not lumped them all together.There couldn't be a kinder, nicer,more honest person in the world than my Michelle.
> 
> But ones like that GUY, whoever he is, make me crazy.
> 
> ...



TOTALLY there are great trainers out there who are great people - I've known several in both breeds I'm curently involved in... like Joel White who does both Arabians and Miniatures and works so nicely with both - no shortcuts and no abuse! (I've known those too!)

It isn't an issue simply of trainers vs owners, rich vs not-so-rich or winners vs losers... it's an issue of honesty and integrity and playing by the rules!


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## wcr (Oct 10, 2005)

I am glad this subject has come up. I have shown horses for 40 odd years and shown in several different registries and now am showing A, R and Pinto. After this year I will never show A again. I know what shank power is and how it feels. I have had a horse dip down and end in a shorter class than I had entered in only to be towered over by a certain presidents horse shown by a high power trainer. Shame on you !!!! The regionals were a farce in some classes and I actually booed the judges at their placing. Never again.


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## Becky (Oct 10, 2005)

> It isn't an issue simply of trainers vs owners, rich vs not-so-rich or winners vs losers... it's an issue of honesty and integrity and playing by the rules!


Absolutely!! And it's time we stepped up and let others know that the majority is tired of the unethical practices of a few!


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## JohnN (Oct 10, 2005)

Just curious, but wonder why no AMHA director or officer has jumped in on this thread? A lack of rules enforcement, all rules, not just show rules, is the reason a lot of us no longer show or participate in AMHA activities. It only took me 11 years of showing AMHA to come to the conclusion that most National/World winners are determined by who you are, not who you show. Good luck on trying to make changes.


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## Angel2 (Oct 10, 2005)

Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE". What was said as quoted by the Trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts.

Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.

Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.


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## wildoak (Oct 10, 2005)

> The Worlds and Regionals should always have stringent height measurements


And these rules should be abided by _all year_. What upset people so when they tightened up at Regionals / Nationals a couple of years ago was the fact that they had shown horses by different standards all year.

My gelding happened to measure what I consider to be his correct height (32.5")this year, but watching classes made it pretty obvious that many did not. Measuring was very casual compared to last time around - no marking on the withers, no one stressing much over it.

What really gripes me is the cavalier attitude of some of the AMHA leadership, when it comes to bending the rules. Measuring was not the only issue at World - there were horses allowed in classes they had not qualified for. Did I miss the announcement prior to the show that you didn't have to qualify this year? Fine if it's for everyone, but don't wait till the show starts and let horses in when others have worked to qualify, or perhaps didn't bring horses because they weren't qualified.

There was a lot of grumbling this year, more than I've ever heard. I really try to stay away from it - I want to believe the best of our organization and the people who run it but I was appalled this year at the things I saw. There was another instance of a rules exception being requested for a very legitimate medical reason, and although the request was denied, they were told they should just "go ahead and do it anyway, no one will know" What kind of ethics does that reflect??

AMHA did have evaluation forms on the table this year the last couple of days, and boy will they get an earful.

Charlotte, you are so right about our involvement. I am guilty too of not making the effort to go to national meetings, etc., and I need to do better.

Jan


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## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

> Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.


Gee *Angel* - what about those who were subtly insinuating that Strider did not win the Champion of Champions due to something _shady??? _And not that Miss Kentucky is also a superb horse??






Anyway - NONE of the comments you have made above should prevent a PROFESSIONAL from doing his job and seeing the project (taking a horse through the show) through to its completion. If someone pulled a stunt like that in an office - they would be fired... _*shrug*_

You seem to be suggesting that it was WRONG to file a protest... and that is sooooo not the right way to solve these issues.

No - the big trainers do NOT have a lock on the placings all the time any more - many highly thought of horses with a well-known trainer on the end of the lead _walked _ this past week. But that does not excuse the RAMPANT measuring problems. Explain to me how a horse who measured just a hair short of 35" two years ago as a growing youngster could possibly belong in the 30 - 32" class at AMHA Worlds last weekend.... well - said horse was there. Unbelievable....


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## Thunder (Oct 11, 2005)

Could someone please pm me with the name of the trainer who refused to honor their contract? I keep a list of people who we will not employ and I would like to add this name. Thank you

Va Lynda Ann


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## [email protected] (Oct 11, 2005)

Angel2 - I'm not one to be confrontational or argumentative on the Forum, especially when I don't know whom I'm addressing but please get real here!!!

_Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE". What was said as quoted by the trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts._

Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.

Either you're naive or new to minis or employed by these characters! No one should shout fire in the theater, but the people that have voiced concerns here are knowledgable about the goings on with both registries and would not stir the pot without reason!

_Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer. _

If I as an owner, feel the need to protest another horse that has nothing to do with my contracted trainer showing my horse! We have a contract - he's suppose to honor that. Perhaps out of courtesy it would be good to inform him, but it's not his decision to protest it would be mine - period! If he had any ethics he would have supported this protest and told his buddy to back down and correct what he was trying to do instead of bailing on his client! I do hope the clients sue - let the courts decide if he was right or wrong.


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## Mulligans Run (Oct 11, 2005)

Angel2 said:


> Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE".  What was said as quoted by the Trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts.
> Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.
> 
> Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.
> ...


Touche'. Have any of you heard the passage, _"Let he who is without sin cast the first stone?"_

Everyone is jumping on a bandwagon here to flame this trainer, whose side you HAVE NOT HEARD.

It's one thing to question the ethics of measuring, but it's another to damage the reputation of a professional trainer. Address the matter where it should be addressed - with the AMHA and their measuring steward and their measuring practices.

Becky has the right idea in suggesting a change to the ruling and that's where the change needs to take place. Tarnishing the reputation of this trainer will only aid and benefit other trainers - (who have also posted their opinions here) it won't solve the issue.

Focus your energies where they will make a positive change.


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## whitney (Oct 11, 2005)

I have IT.

Create a plywood BOX (the exact measurement) they have to walk through.

If you horse gets stuck they are disqualified, and moved to the next higher class if the owner/trainer can unwedge them.


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## Annetta (Oct 11, 2005)

Angel--the trainer was blindsided by the accusation? You mean the trainer that was showing the 29.5" horse in the under 28" class? (Horse did measure at 29.5" after the protest right?) If said trainer is going to take a larger horse into a smaller class (some people call that cheating I think) then he should expect to be "caught". Just because "everyone" has been getting away with this sort of thing doesn't mean that it's always going to work--no one should be blindsided by getting caught. Poor thing, I don't feel a bit sorry for that one.

We've been talking about this around here, and we kind of wonder--if the measurement officials at these shows are trying so hard to please everyone that they are asking "what do you want him to be" & then then measure the horse in to that size, so that horses 1.5 to 2 inches over the size are getting into the various classes...why even waste time measuring. Just let everyone enter where they want & call it good. That way it's fair for everyone--big guys, little people, everyone can do what they want.





I do see the problem someone mentioned earlier on one of these threads--rule changes are hard when the big guys don't want those rule changes & so many "little people" cannot get to the annual meeting to vote. I wish both AMHA & AMHR had proxy or mail in voting. I've been in a breed organization that allowed proxy voting, & I thought it was great--when I couldn't attend the annual meeting, I still had a voice in the decisions made, I just had to be sure to give my proxy to someone that I knew would vote the way I wanted to vote.


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## willowoodstables (Oct 11, 2005)

Ok...I have been involved in showing horses for years. Every YEAR there is someone protesting someone else about measurement. The rules OTHER breeds follows is as such:

Put your money where your mouth is. Put up the protest money and let the stewards handle it. If the horse measures over..you win..horse gets moved to proper class or totally disqualified (or winnings taken away). Horse measures in..too bad for you. Been on both sides..luckily my horse looked BIG but did measure. My protest was honoured and the horse in question was over by 2 inches.

On that note, if the show committee hides under the "Up to the discrection of the Show Committee" umbrella we all lose. Don't let anyone back you into a corner for what you believe! If you honestly (without sour grapes like I've seen happen) beleive a horse is too big, protest. If the committee won't go to the registry. If that doesn't work try the governing body for equestrians and let them know (somewhere in the constitution of registries there MUST (if not should be) a line stating how they wish to follow USEF or CEF or EUF rules).

But back to measuring..until a completely fool-proof (pun intended) method becomes the STANDARD to measure ALL horses with, we are at the mercy of interpretations, bad ground, bad stick etc etc etc. My horses measure up to 2 inches different at shows..what a JOKE. So..lets all put on the collective thinking cap and stop pointing fingers and come up with a STANDARD that all are measured by. I have had horses measured on a silly piece of plywood ontop of a sandy arena (please...like that's level).

Voting is a great idea..but you have to be ready to pay the consequences of the vote..it may not work in your favour.

Kim


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

Angel2 said:


> Has anyone thought the lack of response may be due to the fact that they know the facts? You have all run on a "MISQUOTE".  What was said as quoted by the Trainer never happened, the reason was wrong as to why he refused to show the horse and everyone has run rampant with that. Your acting like a lynch mob and you do not know all the facts.
> Maybe the officials and the trainer have chosen not to dignify this joke with a response. I don't intend to say this isn't a serious issue, as far as measuring goes. But to crucify anyone on exagerated hearsay is equally wrong. You were not there you personally did not hear the exchange and you do not know the real reason the trainer refused to show the horse in question.
> 
> Has anyone considered the fact that the owner of the horse opted to with encouragement from others, and with no knowledge to the trainer, file this protest? Has anyone considered what happened to the trainer when he was accused of this and was totally blindsided, because he had no idea it had happened? Has anyone thought what was the reason for hiring a trainer if they know better how to handle the issues presented at the sanctioned shows, and know more about what is necessary to quarantee their horses placing? Have any of you looked at the placings at that show, none of the top trainers had a lock on the placings. You don't have all the facts and I hope this dies down before you destroy the reputation of a wonderful trainer.
> ...


Yep you are right had this been one of our "own" then you can bet everyone would be defending until they had ALL the info in front of them


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## Becky (Oct 11, 2005)

As I stated in my topic regarding measuring, I am submitting a rule change proposal that all horses showing at the AMHA World Championship Show will not be allowed to show in classes that are a smaller height division than they have been showing in that year. They can move up, but not down.

This won't eliminate all problems, but it is a step in the right direction. I don't believe we need to change where we measure our horses; there are ways to cheat in anything where humans are involved. What AMHA needs to do is stick by it's measuring rule. Period. The rule is in place. It needs to be enforced.

Any owner should have the right to protest any horse at a show be it for height or any other reason they deem that the rules have not been followed without fear of repercussion by anybody.


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## Ashley (Oct 11, 2005)

> As I stated in my topic regarding measuring, I am submitting a rule change proposal that all horses showing at the AMHA World Championship Show will not be allowed to show in classes that are a smaller height division than they have been showing in that year. They can move up, but not down.


Well how is that gonna work really? I dont show AMHA but do show AMHR so will use my example from there. I have a gelding who measures 34". But depending on the person measureing he has measured anywere from 33.5 to 34.25" So say I show him all summer and 50% of the time he measures over 34 the other under. How would you decided what class he is supposed to be in? When you have horses on the line like that its gonna be to hard to pick and choose where they should go.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Oct 11, 2005)

whitney said:


> I have IT.Â
> Create a plywood BOX (the exact measurement)Â  they have to walk through.Â
> 
> If you horse gets stuck they are disqualified, and moved to the next higher class if the owner/trainer can unwedge them.Â
> ...



Cool! I used to have an Arabian mare who could walk through a 34" high opening I didn't get her stall door all the way closed - would that make her a mini?








(just injecting a little levity!)


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## Jill (Oct 11, 2005)

whitney said:


> I have IT.
> Create a plywood BOX (the exact measurement)  they have to walk through.
> 
> If you horse gets stuck they are disqualified, and moved to the next higher class if the owner/trainer can unwedge them.
> ...


Oh, if nothing else, I think you maybe just came up with a new halter obstacle!!!


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## tagalong (Oct 11, 2005)

> Any owner should have the right to protest any horse at a show be it for height or any other reason they deem that the rules have not been followed *without fear of repercussion by anybody*.


Bolding mine. Absolutely. Is it really that unreasonable that any trainer should be professional enough to show the horse they have been contracted to present - no matter WHAT was going on behind the scenes??? _*shrug*_ I don't understand why this is such a difficult concept to grasp... but hey - I am just a Nobody ... _*sigh*_ ... and if it was "one of our own" - that would not excuse _that_ person either....

As far as the Push Through box goes ( a Push-Me Pull-You?



) would it have a width limit as well??


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## Franklin (Oct 11, 2005)

I have not read every post on this thread, but have read enough of them to remind me why I had rather enjoy my horses out in the field than in a show ring.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 11, 2005)

Franklin said:


> I have not read every post on this thread, but have read enough of them to remind me why I had rather enjoy my horses out in the field than in a show ring.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


and frankly to me this is one of the saddest things I have read and hope it doesnt keep those who are anxious to try out of the ring.


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## Mnmini (Oct 11, 2005)

A very interesting topic. I'm sure the last mane hair was perhaps to initially make the horses measure smaller, but should have aided in consistency as well.

Measuring difficulties is not a problem soley with minis! I can't even count the number of times QH advertised as 16.2 were really only 15.3, and it isn't just a QH thing either. I laughed with a dressage instructor that had competed on arabs back in her 3-day eventing days. She said she didn't know how big a 15.2 hand horse was for several years because all of the arab folks were calling their 14.2 handers 15.2

There is a lot of honest mis-measurement out there (referring to large horses here), as folks seem to be stumped at where exactly the withers are!?!

My own driving mini is solidly in the middle of his size class 34 -36. I would LOVE for him to measure over 36, but don't see that happening. Two years ago, he measured 35 3/4, and has been steadily shrinking ever since. He was pretty consistently measured at 35 1/2 most of last year and this, but was an astonishing 35 at Nationals this year! I laughed after he was measured, that I had one of those coveted "shrinking" minis, and he'd be eligble to be hardshipped into AMHA soon!


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## Laura (Oct 11, 2005)

Charlotte said:


> [SIZE=14pt]to wait while this took place and so a protest would not be allowed. My thoughts on this---the horse is right there available---how long would it take to measure him???? Then he could just stay right there and go into the next class that fit his height.[/SIZE]
> 
> The 30" horse did place in the Top Ten.
> 
> ...


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## bob r (Oct 11, 2005)

I will rob Peter to pay Paul and attend the annual meetings.......I will go early and sit in on the

JUST ANOTHER REASON WE SHOULD HAVE VOTING BY EMAIL!!!! OR MAIL BALLOTS.

BUT THE MONEY PEOPLE WON'T LET THAT HAPPEN!!!!!!!! THEY CAN'T CONTROL THINGS THAT WAY.


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## Charlotte (Oct 11, 2005)

> WON'T LET THAT HAPPEN


Bob, can't never did anything, so lets quit saying that word.....can you just imagine if EVERY AMHA member on this forum got all their AMHA friends and backed, by letter, email and phone a proposal, to allow mail voting or email voting.....If pushed hard enough and long enough I believe it could be done.

And this is what we need! We have just a few people doing all the work and having to make all the decisions...........they aren't always good decisions, but I bet we could all help them on that, couldn't we?

Will someone please begin drafting a rule change relating to email/mail voting? Let's get this started!

Will it be easy? Will it be quick? Undoubtedly not, but to not keep trying and just keep griping sure isn't going to get it done.

Charlotte


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## sfmini (Oct 11, 2005)

I am about to sound like a broken record here, but I will try one more time, one more year.

Every year I post this response, everybody goes away, then starts complaining again the following year.

If you want mail vote you must:

Find out what the objections are

Address each issue with a solution

Propose the rule changes to make it happen.

Nobody wants to do the work, they just want to complain. The only way you can effect change is to work for it.

Personally, (director or not) I rob Peter to pay Paul and go to the meetings. I can say that my mind has been changed on several issues after discussion because I have the opportunity to hear other's opinions on them.


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## Crabby-Chicken (Oct 11, 2005)

You know I almost wish that if a horse wins a national or world title they would have to be measured in front of the whole audience. Like they do for the Kentucky derby and they have to weigh every part of the equipment. Have a pre-calebrated platform that is checked and rechecked for absolute balance, near where the photos are taken. Take the horse up there, measure, walk over and take the photos. I would like to see that. I know, I am goofy.


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 11, 2005)

You are not goofy at all. Our National Champion and Reserve plus a random few in the Top Ten are escorted immediately to the drug testing stalls where they are tested. At that point their hoof length is measured and shoes get pulled and weighed. Ofcourse it takes some time for the drug tests to get back but if the hoof or shoe weight is illegal................they are DISQUALIFIED! END OF STORY.

Happens a number of times during the show. And there is no leniency......were are talking 1/10 ounces here. And many times it is not the fault of the trainer or owner. It's horrible when that happens but rules and rules and they don't budge.

Not a bad idea at all!

Edited to say........instead of the stewards overseeing this the judges could over see it. (no the judges would not do the actual measuring) Hey, they are right there. This would help the harrassment issues that have been brought to light here. There is so much you can do to make things work.

Carol


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## Crabby-Chicken (Oct 11, 2005)

Thanks Carol! I have been thinking of that idea for a while. I know that it is something that I would be all for if I EVER won a grand champion or such!

I just think it would be great if it were included in the grandness of winning so that it seems like a natural thing to do. And if it were in front of the audience, it would cut down on people taking that chance of sneaking their horse in a smaller class.


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## bob r (Oct 12, 2005)

You know I almost wish that if a horse wins a national or world title they would have to be measured in front of the whole audience. Like they do for the Kentucky derby and they have to weigh every part of the equipment. Have a pre-calebrated platform that is checked and rechecked for absolute balance, near where the photos are taken. Take the horse up there, measure, walk over and take the photos. I would like to see that. I know, I am goofy.

GREAT IDEAL!!!!


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## nootka (Oct 12, 2005)

I think Kim's idea is perfectly fine. It does not take THAT long to measure, and my only hesitation would be how close would the "audience" be allowed to watch this procedure?

I can not tell from 100 ft. away, where the stick is, however, I think there would be quite a bit less "fudging" if those horses had to be measured.

The thing is, also, what happens after a horse has been named, say "Grand Champion Mare" and is found to be over by an inch?

Would the placings trickle down...i.e., the Reserve is now Grand, and the third place horse now Reserve? We have to think of these things before we can suggest them.

I personally think the enforced measuring of the top three horses should be mandatory as well as random measurements throughout the show if it were possible to find someone who is non-biased and could not be influenced within the industry (might be too hard to implement).

Likely we will have to pay more for our shows to enforce this, and it's sad that it is necessary, but better than complaining, we put our money and our efforts into our beliefs.

Liz M.


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## Vertical Limit (Oct 12, 2005)

> The thing is, also, what happens after a horse has been named, say "Grand Champion Mare" and is found to be over by an inch?


They get DQed just like at any other American Horse Show sanctioned shows. And yes the placing move up and a new 10th place is named. This is done in all other big breeds that I know of and if height is the biggest issue with all of you miniature horse people I suggest looking into how other breeds keep things in check.

And you do not have to do it in front of an audience. It can be done outside the gate. And it does not even have to be this idea. There are ways to enforce these rules. It would take me about 30 minutes to sit down with a group of people and come up with a viable solution. IT'S JUST NOT THAT DIFFICULT.

And yes Nootka, I agree, the easiest thing to do is enforce the rules that are already in place. But that just seems to me like it just doesn't work.

Don't think of all the reasons why things won't work. Look at what will work and again look into how other breeds enforce rules. Ofcourse they are not height rules, but rules are rules.

Believe me, if a few of these people got their prizes taken away things might change. And if people were suspended for harrassment that would change too.

And if you really want to know the truth, I could care less. I have no vested interest in showing Miniature horses at all and I feel like I can be totally unbiased with what I am saying. But again, year after year I hear the same "STUFF" from everyone when they return home from these shows. It's time to PUT UP OR SHUT UP. Get something done or quit beating a dead horse.


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## Lauralee (Oct 12, 2005)

I think that people are already voting with their feet.....with the class numbers dipping low at AMHA shows, it is plain to see that some owners are dissatisfied, and marching away from AMHA shows. How low does the number have to go before the organization realizes this? Concerned members may not have the ability to vote by ballot, but they can vote with their feet and their pocketbooks when they have had enough. Its sad it had to come to this.


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## runamuk (Oct 12, 2005)

I think the post measurement is a great idea...and would put a halt to so many 35.5 inchers competing and winning






I agree with Carol wholeheartedly and since my interest in miniatures is more for my enjoyment than for the "investment" or the glory....I also could care very little what happens ........AMHA is flailing it is essentially gasping in the throes of death.....something has to change or else it is time for the association to fade away.......not trying to be mean but as a person who purchased a lifetime membership thinking this was an organisation that I wanted to be a part of......lets just say I bought the pitch hook line and sinker........I figure the money I lose can be chalked up to a learning experience


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## Cathy_H (Oct 12, 2005)

> I just think it would be great if it were included in the grandness of winning so that it seems like a natural thing to do. And if it were in front of the audience, it would cut down on people taking that chance of sneaking their horse in a smaller class.


I agree - I also think this should be done at ALL AMHA SHOWS to keep exhibitors- trainers & measurers honest all the way to the end.......... Now who is going to do the legwork to get this voted on? If I recall correctly, something in the past was a good idea but it was not prepared correctly, worded right or something to that effect so could not be voted on.......... Wanted to add that it might be a good idea to have a different person measure the second time or else have one or two people closely observe.


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## slaneyrose (Jan 5, 2006)

I`m so glad you had the courage to bring this up!! I live in Ireland and although am not affected by your heights at shows I actually bought a mare from the world show sale. I know when buying from another country you can be lied to by the seller but I thought at least that is one good thing about buying in the auction...the height would have to be accurate......wouldnt it??? Well it seems not!! Not only did the seller lie by claiming the mare was 32" tall but when she arrived she was suddenly 33.70!!! thankfully she is four so will not grow any taller and is a lovely mare BUT I feel very let down by AMHA as here in europe we measure at the withers so she is 34" here....I bought in good faith and feel cheated by both AMHA as well as the seller.......also very disappointing when you think you are dealing with a top class register.....It has put me right off buying from the states again. :no:


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## Sunny (Jan 5, 2006)

I really am sorry you had such a disappointing experience with purchasing a horse from the U.S. I wish you wouldn't let "one bad apple" ruin it all for you.

However..... I have to wonder why you brought this subject up now, about three months later???


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## slaneyrose (Jan 5, 2006)

Sunny said:


> I really am sorry you had such a disappointing experience with purchasing a horse from the U.S. I wish you wouldn't let "one bad apple" ruin it all for you.
> 
> However..... I have to wonder why you brought this subject up now, about three months later???


I brought it up now because of this thread!! I didnt realise till I read it that it was happening at shows too.


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## mistyrose (Jan 5, 2006)

This topic was ended months ago. I don't know how it reappeared.


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## littlearab (Jan 5, 2006)

I belive slaneyrose just added a reply to this posted subject.

I do know why they are upset by this.

It has long been a issue with me, just starting in minies and the papers always seem to have the horse aleast an inch or 2 under thier real hieght.

It does make not only AMHA but AMHR and all breeders look bad.

If all you have to do is say my horse is 30 inch and it's done then why even have a height requement?

I sorry you found out the hard way that in the world on miniatures one must carry thier own stick.


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