# What is the average length of whip for Driving?



## Reble (Feb 20, 2010)

I just heard on the AMHA meeting average is 48" but not sure what the length of the lash should be?

I do know you must measure from drivers hand and not go pass the horses shoulder?

What is your whip size and lash?

Wondering what the average length of driving whip is?

Hard to find a miniature tack store, with different lengths?

Do you know where the best place is to buy a driving whip for minis?

Some ends are usually to big to fit in whip holders?

Thanks


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## ruffian (Feb 20, 2010)

I use a dressage whip. It's about 36". The tassle is about 8" and is fairly stiff. I've seen whips where the tip of it goes to the horse's ears and have a 15" tassle. The dressage whip has a small handle which fits nicely in the holder.


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## RhineStone (Feb 21, 2010)

I assume you are talking about a breed show driving whip, but in case it doesn't matter I will put in my two cents.

You are right, in order to accurately measure a driving whip, you need to measure from your hand in the "correct" place while you are in the cart to about the girth or shoulder. You shouldn't have to "reach" too far to reach the horse. My 48" carriage whips have 24" lashes, which I LOVE because I can use it in so many different places on the horse, but my favorite is on the barrel where you would cue a riding horse. I can "flick" a longer lash more easily without affecting my hand so much that it affects the horse's mouth if I am driving with one rein in each hand. Technically, you would use a whip on different locations on the horse depending upon the action you are trying to get. I have longer shafted whips for my bigger show vehicles. We always use the lash to cue the horse, because in carriage pleasure driving it is "novice" to use the shaft on the horse.

I have a shorter 8" lash whip that I have for the kids so that they are less likely to get it caught in the harness or cart, since they really don't know how to use a whip effectively anyway.

I have ordered my mini whips from Paul's Harness Shop. The are carbon fiber and they will custom build most lengths of shafts and lashes. You can also get brass or stainless ferrules. They also hold up well and fit well in the whip holders.

Myrna


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## Sue_C. (Feb 21, 2010)

> You are right, in order to accurately measure a driving whip, you need to measure from your hand in the "correct" place while you are in the cart to about the girth or shoulder. You shouldn't have to "reach" too far to reach the horse. My 48" carriage whips have 24" lashes, which I LOVE because I can use it in so many different places on the horse, but my favorite is on the barrel where you would cue a riding horse. I can "flick" a longer lash more easily without affecting my hand so much that it affects the horse's mouth if I am driving with one rein in each hand. Technically, you would use a whip on different locations on the horse depending upon the action you are trying to get. I have longer shafted whips for my bigger show vehicles.


DITTO...there is no WAY you can properly cue a horse with a short, stiff whip. Your whip is there to replace your leg aides, not simply to "kick-start" them with.



> We always use the lash to cue the horse, because in carriage pleasure driving _it is "novice" to use the shaft on the horse_.


It is very dangerous as well. I have always been taught that the quickest way to get a horse to kick in harness, is to continually slap them on the butt with a whip...to never hit a horse on the butt unless it is an emergency dire need for speed, as in getting myself and my horse out of the way to prevent a wreck or the like.


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## Katiean (Feb 21, 2010)

I do have a Dressage whip that is 30" with a 5" lash. I don't know what my other driving whips are and one is just a couple of inches longer than the other and both have a lash of about 5" and the lash on all of them is rigid. But they are in the horse trailer and we have snow. Over 2' high right now. I wish when the weatherman said 1-2 inches he really didn't mean feet. We were supposed to get 1-2 inches of snow last night and got almost 2 feet. We are supposed to get another 1-2 inches (I hope it is inches and not feet again) tonight. Anyway, back to the subject. I do not like a long lash on my driving whip. I was told that your whip should reach the hip of your horse without reaching forward. I can not see the reason to have the whip long enough to reach your horses ears unless that is where you are going to use the whip. Besides 99 times out of 100 I never use my whip. You just have to have it in the cart for showing.


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## Minxiesmom (Feb 21, 2010)

My whip reaches my saddle without bending forward and I have a 10" lash if I need to flick the shoulder. I lay the tip of my whip against my horse's barrel to get him to bend around a corner and tap the shaft gently against his butt to do a pivot. I hadn't heard that I wasn't supposed to use the shaft of the whip. I can't use the whip to "hit" my horse, he would have a fit. I can only gently tap it on him or lay it against his side. I would never be in my cart without a whip. I use it evey time I drive.


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## Sue_C. (Feb 21, 2010)

> I was told that your whip should reach the hip of your horse without reaching forward.


Sorry, but you were misinformed. Your whip should be able to touch your horses SHOULDER without you having to move your hand(s).



> I can not see the reason to have the whip long enough to reach your horses ears unless that is where you are going to use the whip. Besides 99 times out of 100 I never use my whip. You just have to have it in the cart for showing.


To drive properly, and to give your horse the proper aides...you should use a whip long enough to give those aides to your horse. Do you ride at all? If so, it is easier to discribe how your horse needs those aides FROM YOU...to bend and use itself to it's full potential.

To use a well-balanced, and properly APPLIED whip, is of the greatest importance...to NOT use it thusly, is like riding without legs. It is an art in itself, and without the proper knowledge in using one, IMHO, a "driver" is nothing more than a passenger.


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## Reble (Feb 21, 2010)

thank you, I find this very interesting.

Is there anything in the AMHA OR AMHR rule book?


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## ruffian (Feb 21, 2010)

AMHR Rules state:

Driving whips, if used, must be of suitable style, and the tip of the lash must not reach past the shoulder of the horse.

AMHA is basically the same, other than the whip MUST be carried (in hand or in the cart).

So a 48" whip with a 24" lash (total length of 72") is not suitable/legal in the show ring. "A" sized carts have 48" shafts, which go typically to the point of the shoulder. Most "B" carts are 52 - 56". A 72" whip would go way beyond that.


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## RhineStone (Feb 21, 2010)

Since you are not riding a driving horse, the whip replaces the rider's legs. Any cues that you would normally use in riding, you use your whip for to cue the horse. If you slap a horse in the butt when riding it to get it to move forward, many horses would actually buck, so cueing it with the whip on the butt or hip is not actually a safe thing to do. Yes, you generally can't ride a mini, but the concepts are the same. If your horse responds to up and down transitions (go faster or slower) with your voice, that is fine. However, if you need to encourage your horse to place his hind leg up underneath himself to properly execute a nice bending corner for example, a whip is essential. My horse also has two speeds of Strong Trot, one that is a "nice" strong trot, and one that is "beat the clock marathon mode". We call this "fifth gear". Generally, we need to flick the whip once on his barrel to use fifth gear!






By using the shaft of the whip, the driver's hands are rotating a lot and are affecting the horse's mouth. Besides, a good driving horse should be responsive to the lightest touch. Is that saying that I have never used the shaft? Of course, I have used the shaft, but it is usually on "lazy" inexperienced horses that have not yet figured out what a subtle touch means yet. Eventually, we want the horse to respond to subtle cues. If they can feel a fly land on them, they can feel the lash of the whip. It is how they choose to respond to the lash that we need to help them decide.

However, I and other experienced drivers do use the shaft of the whip in less persnickedy situations, like turning a corner in obstacle cones or CDE marathon hazards. Using the shaft of the whip on the horse's side can to get them to turn around faster than just using the lash or not at all. If you need your horse to spin the inside wheel of the cart, using the shaft is almost essential. Again, rarely would I ever use it on the top of a horse's butt.

We actually practice applying the whip here. We set up balls on top of "road cones" that we use for obstacle driving, and practice knocking the ball off the cone with just the lash. You can do the same thing with bottles on a fence post, but it makes the most sense to practice it at the same level as you would be driving, i.e. if you drive a mini, don't waste your practice time knocking bottles off a post that is 5' high. If you really wanted good practice, set up a rein board and then try knocking off the objects, and see what happens to your hands in the process!





The whip is so important in carriage driving, that a good driver is actually termed a "Whip".

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Feb 21, 2010)

ruffian said:


> AMHR Rules state:
> Driving whips, if used, must be of suitable style, and the tip of the lash must not reach past the shoulder of the horse.
> 
> AMHA is basically the same, other than the whip MUST be carried (in hand or in the cart).
> ...


You are not holding the whip at the point of the cross bar of the cart from where you measure cart shafts, you are holding it from the seat. This is the point from which you need to measure your whip.

This language is very similar for ADS, but it says that "the thong on the whip must be long enough to reach the shoulder of the furthest horse", because there are also tandems, four-in-hands, and other configurations with multiple animals at ADS shows for which the rules are written. The furthest horse can also mean a single, since it is the _only_ horse.

72" is also assuming that your lash is stiff and stands straight out. Most are fluid and hang "straight down" from the shaft. If you have a "stiff" lash, which I assume nobody in their right mind would have a stiff 24" lash



, that would go past the shoulder. When I hold my whip properly, the lash hangs roughly near the left hip of the horse (we don't hold our whips straight up, we hold them where you can use them).

So I respectfully disagree. I don't think that a 48" whip with a 24" lash is outside the rules. I think what this says is that you should not have a straight stick whip with a short, stiff lash that reaches in front of your horse. That would be too long to be effective anywhere on the horse!






It would be like carrying a longe whip!

Myrna


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## ruffian (Feb 22, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> ruffian said:
> 
> 
> > AMHR Rules state:
> ...


That's the great thing about the forum, Myrna, we can have a good discussion!

The language in the rule book is specific - the TIP of the last must not reach beyond the shoulder of the horse. When I was comparing to 48" shafts, it was just as point of reference. When driving, my hands are just a few inches of my knees, and my knees a few inches short of the crossbar on my show cart. A whip with a total length of 6 foot would reach beyond the shoulders of any of the "A" sized horses I drive I believe. That said, I watched a trainer at a huge AMHA show with a long whip with a long lash - probably 24" - that easily went beyond his horses' shoulders, and he won almost every time.


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## ruffian (Feb 22, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> ruffian said:
> 
> 
> > AMHR Rules state:
> ...


That's the great thing about the forum, Myrna, we can have a good discussion!

The language in the rule book is specific - the TIP of the last must not reach beyond the shoulder of the horse. So it wouldn't matter if it were a 48" whip with a long lash, or a 70" whip with a 2" lash, as I read it.

When I was comparing to 48" shafts, it was just as point of reference. When driving, my hands are just a few inches of my knees, and my knees a few inches short of the crossbar on my show cart. A whip with a total length of 6 foot would reach beyond the shoulders of any of the "A" sized horses I drive I believe. That said, I watched a trainer at a huge AMHA show with a long whip with a long lash - probably 24" - that easily went beyond his horses' shoulders, and he won almost every time.


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## Sue_C. (Feb 22, 2010)

Ruffian, I think that you must be unusually close to the front of your cart?



Or I am wayyyy far away in mine.





This is a picture of an "A" size mare (31.50") in my convertable cart...the basket is out, but that doesn't change where the cross bar is...or where the horse is. This whip is 48 inches, with a 12" lash, and you can see that it doesn't go past her shoulder.






This isn't the best of whips, but I really like the balance for my hand, and it is very "whippy" at the end...I can flick it from one side of her barrel to the other with hardly moving my wrist, or changing the feel in her mouth. The good whip that I recently got, is going to be much better...it actually sounds very much like the one Myrna speaks of.


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## Reble (Feb 22, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> Ruffian, I think that you must be unusually close to the front of your cart?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Thanks so much for the picture, size of whip and lash.

I am going to have to check out our whips to see which one is close to those measurements.

Have to wait till spring to check out the horse in the cart too see if this would be the correct measurements. Great info, thanks everyone.


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## RhineStone (Feb 23, 2010)

This is the style of whip I am refering to. This particular whip has a 48" long shaft (the hard part), and a 24" lash. I got it from Smucker's when they were still in business. You can now get them from Fully Equipped Outdoors (I think). Included in that 24" measurement is the popper, the little black replaceable thing on the end of the white lash. In some circles, the lash is also called the thong. Sue, your 12" "lash" is actually called the popper. That is a "straight stick" American "buggy" whip, generally used in the show ring, where people don't seem to actually "use" a whip. (I would use the whip anyway, as it is considered one of the necessary "aids" to driving your horse, like your reins and voice.) I can see now what the confusion might be as to why someone might think my whip was too long if you are thinking that it is a 24" popper!



The lash is flexible, so much that you need to hang it on a circular whip reel so that it maintains it's "bow top". Otherwise, it will flop back much like a silk ribbon taped to the end of a pencil. That isn't good for the whip. The popper is a little more stiff than the lash.

You can see in this vehicle that my 48" whip is not nearly going to go past the horse's shoulder. Granted, this cart sets me back a little further away from the horse than a Jerald style cart, but I also use this whip in the Jerald style cart, too, and again, it doesn't go past the shoulder. Do officials at a breed show actually hold the lash out horizontally to measure it?





Please ignore my slouching in this photo. We are running Cones, and I was reaching out to give him his head a bit on a long stretch in between sets of cones.





The whip below is the whip I use for arena classes generally, although I actually sold this whip to get one that has a longer lash that will be better for flicking him in the belly. It is from Paul's Harness Shop. It is about a 52" shaft whip and has an 18" lash. You can also see the round bow top shape better in this photo. My sister used this whip with her Jerald-style Wagoner cart with a 34" gelding, and it did not go past the horse's shoulder. I have a photo, but I would have to scan it, and that would take too much time right now.






In order to flick him in the belly, I have to rotate my wrist in a circular fashion to get the whip end to come around. If you think of it as starting with your knuckles up, rotating clockwise, and finishing the circle with your nails up. I sometimes put the reins in the left hand, so as not to affect the horse's mouth at all. He has gotten so sensitive to the whip/reins, that by just moving my right hand, he will engage without me actually finishing the motion.





Myrna


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## Reble (Feb 23, 2010)

Thanks the photo's are very helpful.


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## Sue_C. (Feb 23, 2010)

Yes, my new whip that I will be using this coming season is one like Myrna's. I really like it, much better that my old ones. It is unfortunate that no one at ALL around here carries these whips, and I really hated to order one from far away, to find I didn't like the balance or "feel", but I think I will be very happy with it.


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## Sandee (Feb 23, 2010)

Myrna, I really don't believe that the whip you're using would be allowed in an AMHA or R show. I've always been told that the length of the whip with the lash laid out flat should not extend beyond the shoulder of the horse.

Reble I've found some very nice (well balanced) whips at Estate Horse Supply. If the whip is light and well balanced it's not near as difficult to carry as one of those heavy (cheaper) ones that are farm stores.


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## Reble (Feb 23, 2010)

Sandee said:


> Myrna, I really don't believe that the whip you're using would be allowed in an AMHA or R show. I've always been told that the length of the whip with the lash laid out flat should not extend beyond the shoulder of the horse.Reble I've found some very nice (well balanced) whips at Estate Horse Supply. If the whip is light and well balanced it's not near as difficult to carry as one of those heavy (cheaper) ones that are farm stores.


thanks, I will check that supplier out.


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## ruffian (Feb 23, 2010)

"Do officials at a breed show actually hold the lash out horizontally to measure it?" Yes, that is how it would be measured if there was a question or protest.

Cool photos - looks like you are having fun!


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## Sue_C. (Feb 23, 2010)

> Myrna, I really don't believe that the whip you're using would be allowed in an AMHA or R show. I've always been told that the length of the whip with the lash laid out flat should not extend beyond the shoulder of the horse.


Depending upon the cart used; it doesn't reach past her horse's shoulder in that blue cart...even were she to hold it straight out. You can also get a 12" "soft" lash as well, it needen't be 24".

I think another very important thing we have been discussing here is not only how long a whip should be, but what it is actually FOR, and how it is supposed to be used...not just carried because one has to, or to go "giddy-up".


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## RhineStone (Feb 23, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> > Myrna, I really don't believe that the whip you're using would be allowed in an AMHA or R show. I've always been told that the length of the whip with the lash laid out flat should not extend beyond the shoulder of the horse.
> 
> 
> Depending upon the cart used; it doesn't reach past her horse's shoulder in that blue cart...even were she to hold it straight out. You can also get a 12" "soft" lash as well, it needen't be 24".
> ...


Thank you, Sue. I was beginning to feel like I wasted my time altogether!




My husband already feels like I waste my time posting on this forum because we are carriage drivers and not breed show drivers.



Like I said before, I have a whip with a 52" shaft with an 8" "soft" lash. The problem is that it has very little "flick", which is why I let the kids use it at the shows. I don't like it, and it was an expensive "mistake" to purchase. It won't do what I need it to do.



IMO, it is for people that don't know how to use a whip.

My whole purpose in posting on this thread was to help people understand _how_ and _why_ we use a whip when driving. It might have a bearing on how you measure the whip. A lot of breed show rules and exhibitors tend to dictate against "properly" using a whip, and for reasons unbeknownst to me. I have yet to have somebody explain a good reason why most breed show whips are the way they are other than "that is how the Arabs (et al) do it". That is not a logical reason. I was hoping that by shedding some light on why we use a whip the way we do, that somewhere along the line, somebody "important" would get the notion to change the system. I know, it's a long shot, and the reason that my husband thinks my posting is a waste of time.





But in the mean time, if somebody got some good use out of it, I am happy. I don't spend a lot of time on threads that aren't driving-related, and usually don't post just to congratulate someone for something if someone already did. I don't like to "repeat" what has already been said. However, my "payoff" is when I can help especially new drivers, since I remember what it was like to be one myself years ago.





Myrna


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## RhineStone (Feb 23, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> Yes, my new whip that I will be using this coming season is one like Myrna's. I really like it, much better that my old ones. It is unfortunate that no one at ALL around here carries these whips, and I really hated to order one from far away, to find I didn't like the balance or "feel", but I think I will be very happy with it.


Sue, where did you get your new whip?


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## Reble (Feb 23, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Sue_C. said:
> 
> 
> > Yes, my new whip that I will be using this coming season is one like Myrna's. I really like it, much better that my old ones. It is unfortunate that no one at ALL around here carries these whips, and I really hated to order one from far away, to find I didn't like the balance or "feel", but I think I will be very happy with it.
> ...


Yes, I would also like to know? Thank you all for your help.

I am learning and seeing does also help.


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## Relic (Feb 23, 2010)

Well l found all that interesting l read everything you write on driving you explain it so well so don't stop...



for AMHA driving we've always used a 36" with either a 4 or 8" lash depending on the size of the horse.


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## RhineStone (Feb 23, 2010)

I just checked Paul's Harness Shop or phssaddlery.com and they stock a 45" mini whip with a 10" lash. There are other sizes available, too.


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## RhineStone (Feb 23, 2010)

Reble said:


> Yes, I would also like to know? Thank you all for your help. I am learning and seeing does also help.






Relic said:


> Well l found all that interesting l read everything you write on driving you explain it so well so don't stop...
> 
> 
> 
> for AMHA driving we've always used a 36" with either a 4 or 8" lash depending on the size of the horse.


Aw, thanks guys!



That makes me feel much better! My husband and I literally had an argument the other night about my time here, so that really means a lot!



He didn't think that I made that big of a difference, and I have felt pretty bad about it today.












Myrna


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## susanne (Feb 24, 2010)

Myrna, Don't even consider not posting -- I'll hunt you down and string you up if you do. There are at least a few of us here who love carriage/ADS driving, and I for one enjoy absorbing all that you have to say.

Breed show driving (with minis as well as other breeds) is not about driving as much as it is halter class in motion. It's not about correct or traditional driving techniques or turnouts; instead, it is simply another way of presenting the horse and showing its movement and conformation. It simply is what it is (prom dresses and all...).

That said, since we have no ADS pleasure shows anywhere close, I do wish the breed shows would include a few traditional driving classes...dressage, reinsmanship or whatever.


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## RhineStone (Feb 24, 2010)

susanne said:


> Myrna, Don't even consider not posting -- I'll hunt you down and string you up if you do. There are at least a few of us here who love carriage/ADS driving, and I for one enjoy absorbing all that you have to say.
> Breed show driving (with minis as well as other breeds) is not about driving as much as it is halter class in motion. It's not about correct or traditional driving techniques or turnouts; instead, it is simply another way of presenting the horse and showing its movement and conformation. It simply is what it is (prom dresses and all...).
> 
> That said, since we have no ADS pleasure shows anywhere close, I do wish the breed shows would include a few traditional driving classes...dressage, reinsmanship or whatever.


Thanks Susanne. I'm sure you'll hunt me down someday in our gallivants around the nation, but I'd rather not be strung up! LOL





The Arabs (which on another thread it was "assumed" that the minis were being "patterned" after) have started carriage driving classes at their Sport Horse shows. That might be something for minis to consider. That would DEFINITELY have an impact on the number of exhibitors at mini breed shows, as where else to mini drivers have to exhibit? Especially in the NW!

That's another whole thread.....


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## Sterling (Feb 24, 2010)

I have been reading this thread and other driving threads with much pleasure. Myrna, I have not mentioned this before, and altho it's been on the tip of my tongue, I thought now would be as good a time as any to tell you that I have enjoyed your posts and all that you have shared with this forum. Please let your hubby know that many of us don't consider your input a waste of time or it going by the wayside.



I for one am thrilled that you share your knowledge with us here.


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## targetsmom (Feb 24, 2010)

I will also add my thanks to Myrna for great posts, but that wasn't all I had to say.

This will likely be a totally different perspective because I drive mostly at Pinto shows, but have also driven in one ADS event (looking forward to more!) and at one AMHA show. I use two whips that are each 48" long with about a 12" lash plus popper so the floppy end is nearly 18". One whip I got from a company called Ultralite Whips and it is that! I save that one for shows. The other one I got from a catalog of saddle seat horse supplies (sorry I can't find it) and it is simply an "in-hand" whip. If you know what size you want, they come in various sizes at reasonable costs (unlike the Ultralite).

I also have in my trailer various dressage whips which have come in handy when other people forget their driving whips. And I think I may have a real mini driving whip too (no lash, just a popper).

My local driving club had someone from the Westfield Whip Company (in the next town from me) give a talk recently, and it was great to feel the different whips. Unfortunately the presenter hadn't brought any really small sizes. I also learned a bit about choosing colors, but let's not even GO there!!! Mine are basic black.


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## Reble (Feb 24, 2010)

targetsmom said:


> I will also add my thanks to Myrna for great posts, but that wasn't all I had to say.I also learned a bit about choosing colors, but let's not even GO there!!! Mine are basic black.


That is another question, sorry?

I have seen, white and black and very few brown?

Our reins are usually brown at the end, and my husband does have one brown whip.

Can you just tell us what is best in showing, what you did learn?


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## targetsmom (Feb 24, 2010)

Sorry - I should not have said anything about color. I don't think that should be an issue except in ADS driving where "turnout" is judged. White lashes (like Myrna has) seem to be favored there, but I can't remember much else that was said!! In the show ring I think basic black will serve you well and be easiest to find.


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## Reble (Feb 24, 2010)

targetsmom said:


> Sorry - I should not have said anything about color. I don't think that should be an issue except in ADS driving where "turnout" is judged. White lashes (like Myrna has) seem to be favored there, but I can't remember much else that was said!! In the show ring I think basic black will serve you well and be easiest to find.


Ok thanks so much for your reply,

just was wondering being our end of our reins are usually brown?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 24, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Aw, thanks guys!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Are you kidding? Do you KNOW how much typing you save me?! *LOL* My carpal tunnel is quite grateful.





Don't ever question your contribution. The people who learn the most from it (from the letters I've received over the years) are the shy ones who lurk and are afraid or reluctant to post for various reasons. Besides- as you said earlier, the only way the rules and practices of the breed ring are ever going to change is if knowledgeable people speak up and ask for that change. I think it is very much a waste of time to say someone else's style of doing things is wrong (and who's to say it is?) but it's not out of line to ask for another style of driving to be recognized as well in order to broaden the appeal of the breed. As you and Susanne both noted not all of us have ADS Pleasure Driving shows in our area or own Pinto miniatures.

Who would it hurt to make sure properly fitted carriage driving whips were legal?



I've used mine in AMHR shows without the judges saying a word but I did have an officious steward try to throw a hissy. This same person told me it was illegal to braid a horse for jumper, at which point I got annoyed and quoted the rulebook at her in both cases. She backed off.







targetsmom said:


> The other one I got from a catalog of saddle seat horse supplies (sorry I can't find it) and it is simply an "in-hand" whip. If you know what size you want, they come in various sizes at reasonable costs (unlike the Ultralite).


The Ultralites aren't particularly overpriced for a good carriage whip and I personally have been thrilled with the three I own. My wrists aren't up to much these days and a heavy, unbalanced whip makes me ache in a hurry. I love my Ultralites!



I have a short green one for use with my Hyperbike (it has a full-length black lash so I can still ask him to bend instead of having to use a crop), a regular-length green one with black lash for my Bellcrown and now a slightly shorter black one with black lash which I plan to take in the breed ring as well as using it with my Frontier and other smaller carts.

Leia


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 24, 2010)

Reble said:


> just was wondering being our end of our reins are usually brown?


Rein ends are brown because black dye would come off on the driver's hands and clothing, ruining the garment.



That's why lap robes were invented and why brown gloves are traditional too. The whip was presumably made of different materials where dye wasn't an issue. Myrna? Traditional holly whips and such are more your area of expertise than mine!





Leia


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## ClickMini (Feb 24, 2010)

I love my Ultralite Whips.





That is another Webinar to request from ADS, "proper whip and cueing techniques."


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## susanne (Feb 24, 2010)

Just to add to my previous post:

I don't mean my comments about breed show driving to sound judgmental (although I couldn't resist the chance to poke fun at myself) -- it was merely recognizing that different styles of driving have their own particular purposes, goals and protocols. Just because we prefer one does NOT mean the others are wrong.


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## Reble (Feb 24, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Reble said:
> 
> 
> > just was wondering being our end of our reins are usually brown?
> ...


I had heard that brown gloves where so they made the hand extend to the brown reins, but did not know about the dye problem, see I do learn something new everyday.. thanks


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## RhineStone (Feb 24, 2010)

targetsmom said:


> My local driving club had someone from the Westfield Whip Company (in the next town from me) give a talk recently, and it was great to feel the different whips. Unfortunately the presenter hadn't brought any really small sizes. I also learned a bit about choosing colors, but let's not even GO there!!! Mine are basic black.


Yes, I think that is the brand of my 48/24 whip that I like so much! The only thing I don't like is that the ferrules are silver and don't match my brass harness, which is why I only use it for obstacles and practice at home.



hobbyhorse23 said:


> Are you kidding? Do you KNOW how much typing you save me?! *LOL* My carpal tunnel is quite grateful.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Again, show me the _purpose_ for the rule. If you have none, it is a stupid rule.... _Most_ carriage rules have a logical purpose (except the one about carrying a quarter sheet in Aug., and I'm going to talk to the Pleasure Driving Chair about that, but I digress.



).



hobbyhorse23 said:


> Reble said:
> 
> 
> > just was wondering being our end of our reins are usually brown?
> ...


Are YOU kidding? I can't afford a holly whip!



Even if I could, I'm not sure I'd want to use one and risk breaking it! $$$!!! My guess is that Holly was used because it was a natural material that was "usable" at the time. They didn't have graphite and carbon fiber back then.



I haven't done any research on Holly whips, but that is a good question. I do know of a lady that had an antique Holly whip that was originally made in England. It was broke because her helper forgot that the whip was still in the whip holder when he went to load the carriage in the trailer and snapped it hitting the roof! Last I knew, she sent it to England to be repaired, but couldn't get it back out of Customs because it had a real Ivory (as in elephant tusk) handle which is considered a "protected" commodity. (I don't know if that is the right word...



) So she was out like $1000! Most new ones are around $450, but I sure don't want to use something that expensive and breakable on my HORSE!





As far as colors of whip go, generally as Targetsmom said, basic black is fine, especially if you have a black harness. Brown or "natural" might be used if you have a russet harness. John Greenall, the Turnout Guru, says to darken that white lash because he can't stand when the lash screams, "I'm a white lash!" He darkens his in a cup of tea! Nothing should "stand out" from the turnout to distract the eye, but it should all make a nice picture. I haven't got the "nerve" yet to dip my pretty white lash in tea, though. It just seems that would be against "good grooming" or something!



I think it would make a bigger difference if that was the ONLY white thing in my turnout.

Personally, I would avoid "colors", again with the premise of it screaming, "I'm a colored whip!" I do have a navy blue Saddle Seat whip that we got MANY years ago to go with my navy Saddle Seat suit. If your turnout consisted mostly of one color like that, a conservative color might work, but the rule of thumb is that if your eye is immediately drawn to a particular thing, then it is not right for that turnout. I think I have mentioned my big white hat that is beautiful, but lots of people complemented me on my nice hat, when I wanted them to say, "Nice Turnout". Hat got put back in the box for now.



ClickMini said:


> I love my Ultralite Whips.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 24, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> The only thing I think is wrong is when a rule is written that nobody knows why it is the way it is other than "so and so does it that way". By golly, if you are going to make a rule, then have enough knowledge to back it up! There are a lot of people that only have enough knowledge to be dangerous.
> I think that by adding carriage classes to the mini breed ring, a bunch of those "non-Arabian" types that have been discussed on the other threads would feel they might have another place to be "accepted" in the performance arena, too. That can only help the numbers and popularity of the breed.
> 
> 
> ...


Myrna, you know I'm agreeing with you, right?





I think the purpose of the AMHR rule was to keep people from using really long, stupid whips that could interfer with other people's horses or get caught in the railing. The phrasing of the rule is based on the accepted fact that show horses go with short in-hand whips- right or wrong, nobody thought about lashed whips when the rule was written. It was not done intentionally to slight anyone.



Believe it or not, people don't WRITE rules without a reason either!







RhineStone said:


> hobbyhorse23 said:
> 
> 
> > Traditional holly whips and such are more your area of expertise than mine!
> ...


I never said you had one, just that you would know more about why a black whip was okay than I would.



I figured as our Turnout guru you'd know what the whip stocks and handles had been made of that was apparently dye-fast and so did not have to be brown.



RhineStone said:


> ...Personally, I would avoid "colors", again with the premise of it screaming, "I'm a colored whip!" I do have a navy blue Saddle Seat whip that we got MANY years ago to go with my navy Saddle Seat suit. If your turnout consisted mostly of one color like that, a conservative color might work, but the rule of thumb is that if your eye is immediately drawn to a particular thing, then it is not right for that turnout.


Have you ever noticed my green whip in any of my pictures? Or for that matter, the matching green hubs on my Bellcrown? No!



They are a very very dark green, so dark it's only visible in bright sunlight and even then only adds a subtle dimension of color to my turnout so it isn't a solid field of unrelieved black. Nobody ever notices and that's the way I want it.



My lashes are black for the same reason...I don't want to draw the judge's attention to the fact I'm having to get after my horse.

Leia


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## Sue_C. (Feb 24, 2010)

> Sue, where did you get your new whip?


Just getting on this evening...or would have answered earlier...LOL! I don't recall exactly the name of the place I ordered it from...but it is an "Ultralite" or something of the like...??



> John Greenall, the Turnout Guru, says to darken that white lash because he can't stand when the lash screams, "I'm a white lash!"


Robin Groves said the same thing at our clinic last spring. (Good thing I was using my black one there.) LOL!

As far as the Holly whips go, I just cannot comprehend that kind of $$ for a WHIP! To me, spending $130 was enough, and quite a bit of that was shipping. I HAVE seen some whips that look very similar to Holly, but they are of some other wood...cherry perhaps? They are much cheaper; yet still give that traditional look.


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## susanne (Feb 24, 2010)

For me, the more I spend on a whip or gloves the sooner I'll lose them.


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## Reble (Feb 24, 2010)

susanne said:


> For me, the more I spend on a whip or gloves the sooner I'll lose them.


Yes, I was looking at some of the prices, and they might be good whips, but hubby

cannot keep gloves or whips either.

He goes through at least 3 pairs of gloves during the winter. Santa always gives him gloves.


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## Minxiesmom (Feb 24, 2010)

I found a lady here in Oregon that made my whip. It is graphite and very light. She actually used a shotgun shell end for the butt of it, which provides the balance, then wrapped it in leather to make the grip a little larger and easier for me to hold. I cannot use any other whip for any length of time or my carpel tunnel kicks in.











It does reach almost to the saddle and the lash is pretty long.

I changed the popper out to use a small lock of Max's tail!


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## RhineStone (Feb 24, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> RhineStone said:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Sue_C. said:


> As far as the Holly whips go, *I just cannot comprehend that kind of $$ for a WHIP*! To me, spending $130 was enough, and quite a bit of that was shipping. I HAVE seen some whips that look very similar to Holly, but they are of some other wood...cherry perhaps? They are much cheaper; yet still give that traditional look.
> Most people don't. You all, please don't get "scared off" by those figures. That is the rare exception. You know, Drs. and Lawyers and those folks have them. The rest of us "common folk" have what we have been describing here. My whips cost from $20-$90 a piece plus shipping. The price of your whip really only matters if you are going to get into really stiff Turnout competition like the Concours d'Elegance, where the most elegant turnout wins. I have been invited to the Cd'E, but lost handily to the lady with the $1000 whip!
> 
> 
> ...





Minxiesmom said:


> I found a lady here in Oregon that made my whip. It is graphite and very light. She actually used a shotgun shell end for the butt of it, which provides the balance, then wrapped it in leather to make the grip a little larger and easier for me to hold. I cannot use any other whip for any length of time or my carpel tunnel kicks in.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Myrna


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## Minxiesmom (Feb 25, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Minxiesmom said:
> 
> 
> > I found a lady here in Oregon that made my whip. It is graphite and very light. She actually used a shotgun shell end for the butt of it, which provides the balance, then wrapped it in leather to make the grip a little larger and easier for me to hold. I cannot use any other whip for any length of time or my carpel tunnel kicks in.
> ...


Myrna, I don't have any pictures of my longer whip, but it is about 8 inches longer than this one. I can't put my hands on my Pinto rule book at the moment, but I don't recall it saying anything about whip length. Tell me what the benifits of the whip reel are? Could it be installed into the existing lash, which is hollow and very limp? I don't understand the advantages of having it. Please explain.


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## RhineStone (Feb 25, 2010)

A whip reel is something on which you hang bow top whips to maintain their shape. There are grooves cut into the wood by which the whip is hung by the lash near the shaft. You can see the "result" of the whip reel on my photo on this thread of my Meadowbrook style cart. It keeps the shape of the top of the whip nice and round, therefore reducing the opportunity of the lash "creasing", cracking, and breaking where it meets the shaft.

Here is a photo of one we installed in our trailer for transport and storage at the shows. Most are completely round, instead of "missing" the bottom, but this was my husband's first attempt at making one. The pipe insulation at the bottom keeps the whips from flopping around while we are moving. Otherwise, the whip handles hang "loose" when they are in our tack room, with the whip only being held by the lash.






Your whip looks like it would look really nice with a nice bow, but maybe the lash is too "floppy"?



You would have to try it to find out.

The same thing can be done with a half-used roll of of duct tape, a small coffee or large tuna can, etc., but you'd have to "tie" the whip up to hold it there. I did that once by putting a small finishing nail on the wall at the level where the hole was where the popper attached to the lash while the whip hung over the roll of tape. Then I put the lash/popper hole on the nail, and hung the whip over the tape. Does that make any sense at all how I wrote that?



Otherwise, whip reels are available from most any carriage supply.





Myrna


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## Minxiesmom (Feb 25, 2010)

Ok, now I know what a whip reel is. I was confused. My whip is not a bow top. I quess my question should have been, what is the advantage of a bow top whip? What does it do different than one like mine that is like a ribbon on the end of a stick?

Nice trailer, by the way!


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## Reble (Feb 25, 2010)

I have found this topic very interesting and just learned what a whip reel is.


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## RhineStone (Feb 25, 2010)

Minxiesmom said:


> Ok, now I know what a whip reel is. I was confused. My whip is not a bow top. I quess my question should have been, what is the advantage of a bow top whip? What does it do different than one like mine that is like a ribbon on the end of a stick?
> Nice trailer, by the way!


Thank you, we really like our trailer.





I don't know if there is an advantage or a difference in types of whips, it's probably more in preference. There are some advantages in using a _swivel _at the top of a whip in some circumstances, like if you are driving a tandem for example. Some whips are more "correct" or "traditional" with some vehicles, but I don't think it matters so much with mini whips, as they generally aren't "traditional" horses anyways!



Heck, we are lucky just to find whips that are the right size so we aren't tickling the horse's ears with it anymore!

However, if you have a bow top whip, you should have it on a whip reel to maintain the bow, or it will "crack". I couldn't tell if yours was one or not.

BTW, what I meant by posting the photo of the "longer" whip, I meant one with a "drop lash" like you did.



I knew that you showed with one in a "traditional" outfit that looks so good, and I thought it would help people understand that you _can_ show breed shows with a "drop lash" whip vs. just a straight stick. So thank you! I think that is a common misconception that you and others like Leia are working to dispel.

Myrna


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 26, 2010)

An artificial or man made whip has a hard core made of graphite or hard nylon depending on the quality of the whip. The bow is a softer section that is reinforced at the whip end to prevent the tip of the hard core of the whip from breaking through it. When you hang your bow over the reel that keeps the rounded part open rather than the lash breaking over at the tip of the hard core which would eventually wear through it. Holly whips have the lash wrapped around the shaft of the whip and coming off the end. If you don't hang them you risk breaking off the tip of your whip or misshaping it. You want a bow and lash on your whip rather than just a stick with a popper so that you are only touching your horse with the softer part instead of accidentally whacking him with the stiff whip which can hit harder than you want it to and leave marks on your horse. The lash or popper is there at the end to give that little stinging flick when you need it. The thing to remember most when using a whip is that your horse can feel a fly landing on him - in most cases only a very gentle touch is required.

Holly whips are a really strong yet very flexible wood even at that very tiny tip. There really aren't any other woods that compare or could be used. Willow is very flexible but breaks far too easily and most woods that would be strong enough are too stiff. Holly is also very attractive. It is expensive because holly is not widely grown, is a slow grower and must reach quite a size to be useable for whips.

I use my ultralite 48" whip with 24" lash and 6" popper for both breed shows and carriage driving. There has been the odd judge that has commented but not changed my placing because of it. I keep a list of them and carry a 48" whip with a 6 inch lash and popper for them.


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## Reble (Feb 26, 2010)

Love how organzied you are, thanks for the pic of your whip reel.

http://rhinestone-ridge.wikispaces.com/fil...e.jpg/123203001


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## susanne (Feb 26, 2010)

> Holly is also very attractive. It is expensive because holly is not widely grown, is a slow grower and must reach quite a size to be useable for whips.


Huh? It grows around here as a noxious weed...I'd be happy to give it away, but oooooh...maybe I should sell it or make my own whips...


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## ruffian (Feb 26, 2010)

Man - I just sold our 2nd home and it had 3 huge holly bushes - the branches were more than 6' long.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 27, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> An artificial or man made whip has a hard core made of graphite or hard nylon depending on the quality of the whip. *The bow is a softer section that is reinforced at the whip end to prevent the tip of the hard core of the whip from breaking through it. When you hang your bow over the reel that keeps the rounded part open rather than the lash breaking over at the tip of the hard core which would eventually wear through it. Holly whips have the lash wrapped around the shaft of the whip and coming off the end. If you don't hang them you risk breaking off the tip of your whip or misshaping it.* You want a bow and lash on your whip rather than just a stick with a popper so that you are only touching your horse with the softer part instead of accidentally whacking him with the stiff whip which can hit harder than you want it to and leave marks on your horse.


Neat!



That makes perfect sense and I've definitely seen older whips where the end of the core is poking through but I never thought about how to prevent that. I think mine are okay for now but I may look into something like that for my pair or tandem whips should I ever get them. I think the longer lash would put more weight on it and probably be more prone to poking through.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Feb 27, 2010)

Thanks Lori for that explanation! That was great!


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## Carriage (Mar 4, 2010)

Again, show me the _purpose_ for the rule. If you have none, it is a stupid rule.... _Most_ carriage rules have a logical purpose (except the one about carrying a quarter sheet in Aug., and I'm going to talk to the Pleasure Driving Chair about that, but I digress. 



 ).


Myrna? 

 


I'm with you Myrna. Splain it to me! I too don't understand the quarter sheet thing. But then I don't understand the wheel width "proposal" either. Things that are devoid of logic seem to effect me that way.

 


Bb


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## Carriage (Mar 4, 2010)

susanne said:


> For me, the more I spend on a whip or gloves the sooner I'll lose them.


Man that sounds like me. So lets put the whip on a lanyard and attach a string to both gloves like we had when we were little kids. Now if I ask you to take off your glasses you will need to know that I am preparing to yank off one of your gloves.....





Bb


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 5, 2010)

Once again I guess I should be more specific




There are hundreds of holly varieties but not all are useful for making whips.


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