# The Right Direction :)



## DixieGirl89 (May 20, 2013)

Ok, so since my paint mare is out of commission, and my gelding is developing arthritis, and I'm out on medical and can't actually ride due to my bad hip ( I know, only 23 and a bad hip ) I have a harness for 2 minis and a harness for a larger mini, plus a small cart that the minis used to drive with. The minis have not been driven in over a year, and no I do not plan on trying to hitch them up myself and drive them, I'm just not that crazy lol. I have a trainer to help me out but I haven't talked to him yet about this, mainly because I value everyone's opinion on this forum and I want to be pointed in the right direction




! That being said, I am 99.9% clueless about driving horses, and I could really use some help. I know this is a long process for driving, but since I've been out of work, I really want to start ground driving my 2 year old. I have never ground driven a horse before and I have the equipment for it, I just don't know how to get started. I know how to introduce a bridle and bit, and I know how to create good ground manners. I was given mixed reviews my whole life about riding horses, and breaking horses, and now that I want to get into driving, I don't really want mixed reviews. I want someone to straight forward tell me best methods, and proper techniques. My 2 year old is so willing to learn and I love that about her, and my 13 year old and I have fallen in love. I swear, that little gelding has stolen my heart, and I'm so happy to have him in my life, so I want to do something with them. Teach me your ways oh great cart gurus


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 20, 2013)

oh my.. you are asking horse people to all agree on the best methods, and proper techniques. Each of us has different methods that work for us. Some things we agree on, some we don't. That said I will say IMO your 2 year old is ready to be ground driven but not hitched and depending on the horse she may not be ready for anywhere from a year to 3 years since some are slower to mature mentally than others. To begin ground driving I will start by having my horse going well on a single lunge line. They will respond to verbal cues for walk, trot, speed up, slow down, canter,reverse and whoa. They understand that who means stand even tho no one is at their head. When we have that down I will add a second line and begin asking them to respond to pressure from either side, then it is an easy step to introducing the headstall and bit and beginning to actually cues them from the bit. I start everything slow, at a walk and only ask for the trot when they are responding well at the walk. There is a great deal of detail I've left out of course but thats the basic out line. Others will have had success with different methods.


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## paintponylvr (May 20, 2013)

I agree with Reignmaker. So that you know ahead of time - this is a long post and the next part in response to one of your comments may be offensive to you. I don't intend it to be...but not sure how to re-write it better! IF you make it thru the post - lots of info for you...

Each of us on this forum has developed our own ways of starting horses. Pros or ammies that have access to many more horses than 1 or 2 will have a wider variety of experiences with different temperments and personalities within their training styles.

Not every trainer makes a good human instructor.

You don't state if you know what type of driving your own mini's do/did or what type of driving you are aspiring to. You also don't state what type the trainer you have access to does. You may not know... I understand that. Here's a basic list that you may or may not already know:

Show driving for AMHA/AMHR and ASPC. That is in the ring and involves much lighter harness and 2 wheeled show carts. There are different levels or styles of driving - classic, country, pleasure, western pleasure, fine harness and roadster. There are also Draft Hitch classes - different harness, different vehicles.

Pleasure or recreational driving that can be done outdoors. Usually done with much heavier harness that includes different parts such as breeching and takes away the overcheck and training martingale.

CDE - similar to 3 day eventing. Originally done over a course of several days - now there are different formats. Again - heavier harness - synthetic allowed and used, no overcheck or training martigale, breeching on. Heavier duty carts, presentation carriages, marathon vehicles. At lower levels - one vehicle can be used for all sections of the competion - upper levels you will see different vehicles and styles of dress for each section.

Draft driving - there are hitch classes at AMHR/ASPC shows. Also there is just the enjoyment of using your mini (s) for "working" on your farm/property. There are big Draft Horse Clubs that you can attend for trail driving and "working". Harness is with collars and hames - can be leather, nylon, bio or beta-thane. Can be "plain" or have "farm spots" or "parade/heavy spots".



DixieGirl89 said:


> I have a harness for 2 minis and a harness for a larger mini, plus a small cart that the minis used to drive with. The minis have not been driven in over a year, and no I do not plan on trying to hitch them up myself and drive them, I'm just not that crazy lol.


If they have already been driving - why wouldn't you start with them? Why would you want to start with an immature, baby mini that knows nothing when you also know nothing about the sport you wish to enter? Or are you not telling your "trusted" forum members what you really know about the past on these "driving" minis... This really leaves me perplexed!

Now if it's because you want to train your own 2 yr old, that I DO understand. BUT I don't recommend that you start there.

You state that you have 2 minis that already drive. You could learn much by taking either or both thru a refresher course of driving - learning the basics from them - as you learn how to do the refresher course for them. That may help you to learn where they may have "holes" in their previous training. I'm not saying - throw the harness on them, hitch them and head out! That's asking for problems since you've admitted you know nothing about harnessing, fitting the harness, hitching or ground driving, much less driving.



DixieGirl89 said:


> I have a trainer to help me out but I haven't talked to him yet about this, mainly because I value everyone's opinion on this forum and I want to be pointed in the right direction
> 
> 
> 
> ! That being said, I am 99.9% clueless about driving horses, and I could really use some help.


Is this a driving trainer? Have you not asked questions due to $$, lack of trust in this trainer (in which case - keep looking!) or time constraints on the trainer or yourself?

I'm not saying you can't do this on your own. *YOU CAN!* BUT it's better to get instruction from a knowledgeable instructor and trainer. If $$ are an issue, keep reading this forum and studying all that you can get your hands on - DVDs, books, other groups and forums. Find out if the instructor will give you beginner lessons with a well trained driving horse - including harnessing, hitching, mounting/dismounting the cart/wagon. Then go into ground driving.

Google driving clubs in your area. I believe there are several out of Indiana. The National Drive was held in Indiana a few years ago but that would have been in 2010 (? - during WEG). Usually held in October at the Kentucky Horse Park.

If you want to do your own training (I do, because I enjoy it!!) or can't afford to put your horse(s) with the trainer (yes, I started out this way) - find out if the trainer would do "driving checks" on your already trained driving minis. Work thru a schedule where you work on some specific exercises to cover in a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, a month and then schedule another lesson (at any point in there that you can afford and get to). Especially with your already trained minis, you don't necessarily need to put them with the trainer, tho some trainers will always prefer that you do.

Find out if there is anyone doing any driving clinics that you can get to - even advanced clinics you will take something home with you to work on if you can learn that way. If you don't learn well that way, that will be a waste of your time and money.

Even just "auditing" others' lessons and driving times - w/o asking questions (most instructors today may not be willing to do this - a lot due to time, other clients and insurance issues) - BUT take notes and write up anything you have a ? on to ask about later. Even if you then come on and ask here.



DixieGirl89 said:


> I know this is a long process for driving, but since I've been out of work, I really want to start ground driving my 2 year old. I have never ground driven a horse before and I have the equipment for it, I just don't know how to get started. I know how to introduce a bridle and bit, and I know how to create good ground manners. I was given mixed reviews my whole life about riding horses, and breaking horses, and now that I want to get into driving, I don't really want mixed reviews. I want someone to straight forward tell me best methods, and proper techniques. My 2 year old is so willing to learn and I love that about her, and my 13 year old and I have fallen in love. I swear, that little gelding has stolen my heart, and I'm so happy to have him in my life, so I want to do something with them. Teach me your ways oh great cart gurus


There are a great many GOOD DVDs and Books out there that deal with starting a driving horse. Probably the two best that I would recommend starting with - Mary Ruth Marks' DVD - Teach Your horse to Drive (which is actually 2 parts in one DVD) & Doris Ganton's book - Breaking & Training the Driving Horse (now has a DVD which I haven't seen that goes along with the book). They are available thru many different sources - including some that are w/i the LB forum advertisers. Other sources are thru the American Driving Association (ADA) and thru Rural Heritage (on line and also in print magazines available at Tractor Supply, book stores and some feed stores. Amazon also has some good ones available - if you are a preferred member, you won't have shipping charges.

The above two above sources are actually fairly short and sweet but cover A LOT in amazing detail. Even with the addition of many other books and DVDs to my own driving Library - they are the ones that I go back to. There are a couple of mini trainers who have also put out both books and driving DVDs for starting in harness, hitching and driving. Some are related only to the showring and one or two give you other options for going on or some differences in training.

While searching for those titles on Google, i came across a new link to sources and see there are a couple of new DVDs and books I hadn't seen or heard about yet. Hmmm - new fodder for my own library to be added to my Bday and Christmas lists... LOL. I've sold a couple of DVDs that I didn't feel fit my own ideals or style of training. I have a couple of books that I might be selling, too.

I guess this is good to start...

I start with basic ground manners. I have incorporated a lot of NH style training into my handling so use that style of "lounging".

I use voice commands and start with them from the time our ponies are babies. You want to be able to move around your horse while he remains standing still. Once able to lounge, you can graduate to line driving - first w/ one line and then introduce an outside line (since you are starting w/ lounging on a circle, an additional line will be on the "outside"). Teach your horse to stop using the halter or bridle bit contact along w/ your "whoa". No matter what, some type of "whoa" is going to be your most important voice command for any type of driving. I lounge and ground drive at a walk, trot, canter and gallop. The more advanced training you do - the more gaits you can get. Collection and extension at each gait is my goal - I haven't attained that yet with any of my driving ponies!! I haven't been driving them enough yet to get to that point.

I have a tendency to use the draft or teamster speak - so mine also hear - "stand", "step up" - literally meaning to take one or 2 steps forward into draft or to be hitched, "ha" - sharp turn on haunches to the left, "gee" - sharp turn on haunches to the right. When I first started using haw and gee, I had to tie a string to my fingers to remind myself of left and right, LOL. I'm starting to include "over" and combine it with left or right. They also learn their names. I've been told that a single syllable name is best - I have a tendency to like 2. It does make it difficult when you are talking to 4 horses in a hitch! Except for "whoa", I usually preface or precue a specific horse with their name. I use a "cluck" for trot and a "kiss" for canter. For voice commands, i use walk, walk on, ter-rot, can-ter. Try not to use names on your horses that will sound like the voice commands you expect to use. (I mistakenly used "GG" before I started doing draft driving and language and it does get interesting sometimes. Helps that she doesn't actually know "Gee" very well yet).

Go from 1 line driving/stopping to 2 lines contact for stopping. Practice turns. You will probably get tangled up. An enclosed area is great - always choose which way you will lounge and if you "get into trouble" - turn the outside line loose and return to lounging to regain control of either the horse or your lines.

Gradually keep working - you should be able to do large circle figures 8s around your pen/arena/work area - w/ you crossing behind your horse. I don't start w/ 2 lines run thru a surcingle - but coming first over the top of the back behind the withers, then behind the haunches (be prepared for bucking/running away - the less you've handled the horse, the more chance there is of this. Preferably you avoid it). Then graduate as I learn to handle the lines and the pony learns to respond to cues to 1 line run thru the shaft carrier w/ one loose (again - if you get into trouble you turn the one loose that is run thru harness), then two lines thru shaft carriers. Then 1 line thru rein terret, then both...

Introduce your harness. Lounge with the different parts on and "flopping", but keep loose straps hooked up so that they aren't going to be stepped on. Some folk put each piece on individually until the horse is used to it, others introduce more than one piece at a time. Make sure to work in both directions.

That's a very basic start. It's far from all there is.





I started out with watching the ground driving of a pony before riding it in 1970. I used ground driving techniques to start QH & paints during the late 70s thru mid-80s - but other than a couple of rides in carriages, I didn't do any driving. When got back into horses in 1995, I used ground driving to start our first two ponies in RIDING before our 5, 3 & 2 yr old daughters rode the ponies. I finally got my first cart in 1997 and managed to get some basic lessons in driving some of our ponies - but our children were growing and we couldn't afford to do both riding & driving, so driving put into the background. I still used ground driving w/ saddles to introduce all of our horses/ponies to riding. I've now been driving regularly since Jan 2010 and I'm constantly expanding my knowledge. I didn't start out taking regular lessons - then did every week from April thru November 2010. Since - I've attended various clinics, several more advanced driving lessons w/ instructors and have had the opportunity to put a couple of our ponies with other trainers. I'm still learning and have more to learn. Just like with riding - there is much more to aspire to.

I hope that I haven't put you off of driving or upset you too much. DRIVING IS ONE of the funnest sports with your horse, I think!!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 20, 2013)

Much better, more complete than my comment on this. So many details, nearly impossible to cover it in a short post, you made a very good start at it paintponylvr.


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## susanne (May 20, 2013)

Is the 13-year-old gelding a willing learner? If so, with your close relationship and assuming he is past the young horse hijinks, he may be the one to start first. 

Before (or while) you have your horses trained to drive, look into at least a few lessons for yourself. By driving a been-there-done-that horse under a trainer's supervision, you'll give yourself the confidence and experience to work well with your own newly-trained driving horses.


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## DixieGirl89 (May 21, 2013)

Woah that was a lot of info to take in lol! Ok...here we go...

Susanne: The 13 year old is very willing and honestly I did plan on starting with him first, and yes I also plan on taking a few driving lessons on the trainers hackneys





Reignmaker & paintponylvr: I know that was a silly thing to say about asking a bunch of people what the right method was, but a lot of people who have different methods, all have the basic concept of driving, and that's what I'm looking for. With my 2 year old I planned on ground driving first of course, and her driving would be in the future, I wouldn't start with her, but with my 13 year old. I just wanted to start the 2 year old in training starting with the ground driving and such. Nothing you said was offensive paintponylvr, I understand completely and really want to learn, no time for offense in learning



I agree with you that not every trainer is a good instructor and basically am just having him teach me some basics of driving, not so much with training my horses probably. As far as a trainer goes, I would like for Charm to get sent out to Jason Prince in Herscher Ill, I've heard so many good things about his training, methods, and horses. I honestly have NO CLUE on what driving the minis used to do previously (shows you how much I know) but I think they were strictly pleasure drivers.

Thank you so much for that list! I didn't know a lot of that stuff and it was very helpful!

Ok now for the questions asked:

I know I already stated I am starting with the 13 year old, and I probably should have worded better in my first post. Honestly there is nothing I'm hiding about the 13 year old, all I know is what I've told you, which is sad...I wish I knew more about his history. Also, I mean I would like to start with my 2 year old with ground driving, but I would feel safer if a trainer was helping me, or if I sent her out, I basically just want to start her up then send her out later. I don't recommend me starting her in driving either, I need more experience.

The reason I haven't started working with the minis that know how to drive was because I was told to send them out for a refresher course, but I just don't have that money right now being out of work. I figured that was the only option since pretty much everyone I talked to said don't try to refresh them yourself ( like I learned about horses yesterday or something) and I'm not a child (not said by you). If there are holes in the training then obviously just start slowly correct? Just work with the harnessing and ground driving until I feel confident that the horse is confident. Then request trainers help probably for any further steps that could potentially be dangerous for a beginner like myself.

This is a driving trainer, and it's more of a money issue right now, not in the lack of trust. He's a good family friend and trained all of his driving horses that he shows in every local show, not to mention always wins. I really am not comfortable doing this by myself, I've done a lot of training in the past by myself, but never something like this, so I think it would be safer with a trainer.

I'll look into the driving clubs, I didn't know Indiana had driving clubs, well...Indiana doesn't have much of anything so driving club didn't even cross my mind. I love doing my own training more than anything, and right now is a good opportunity because I am out of work at the moment, and paying a trainer is not in my budget. He would be very willing, I already know this, he has no problem coming out and doing a driving check. I really wanted to go see drivers in action, aside from Lake County Fair, but the only driving I can view is from the trainer. There is minimal driving here in the Northwest, and it's very difficult to find anyone reliable.

I will definitely check out those DVD's and books! Thank you for all the advice, it was wonderful and greatly appreciated!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 21, 2013)

Unless the horses who have been driven in the past have an issue to work thro (besides the layoff leading to forgetfulness) I see no reason why you can not refresh them yourself. If you know horses and have input from an experienced person you can call when you are unsure you should do okay. Like you say, take it slow, back up to introing the harness/headstall/bit and then ground driving any where and every where you can go until you feel confidant they are ready for hitching. That may take weeks, months, or over a year depending on the horse(s) and your own readiness to move on, but then you can get input on the next step and help getting the hitching right which will be really important for safety. One step at a time without an agenda, no expectation of a 'finish' date and you should do fine. What you learn refreshing the trained horses will help you when you are ready to begin with your others.


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## DixieGirl89 (May 21, 2013)

Well thank you Reignmaker



At least some people have confidence in me...I have much confidence in myself, but I hate when people I respected bash me for wanting to save some money. I'm so excited to start them, but if you haven't heard the Midwest is getting some pretty nasty weather at the moment with possible tornados and heavy rain. So hopefully when this weather breaks up we can get started



And most definitely will keep everyone updated.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 21, 2013)

I have heard about your nasty weather there (makes me feel guilty for complaining about our blustery cool drizzle). I hope mother nature gives you all a break very soon. Stay safe, I'll be keeping you all in my thoughts.


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## Sandee (May 21, 2013)

I agree with Reignmaker. If your trained driving horse has not had a big accident then they should come right back to driving, especially if you are used to horses. You just need someone familiar with driving to fit your equipment to your horse and make sure you are hooking up correctly.

We were handed the reins of a "been there done that" mini and told "it's just like riding English". Well, mostly it is and it got us through most of the rough spots. The old boy we had was 15 and had been shown. He has since taught our daughter and granddaughter to drive. He had and has a light mouth and is a pleasure to drive (as long as you have the correct equipment but that's another story.).


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## paintponylvr (May 21, 2013)

AH-HA! Thanks for the more in-depth explanation.

I agree again with Reignmaker - you should be able to do the refresher course with your 13 yr old guy.

The reason I did ask, though, if you knew what type of driving he'd done is simply because some don't do well unless refreshing them the same way they were originally taught....

Lets' see... If he was a show mini - he would have worn the lighter harness probably w/o breeching, and with blinders. He may have had the cart hitched thru the surcingle saddle w/ wrap straps tight and not truly pulling thru the breast collar and traces. He may have been driven only in a round pen or a flat arena - never out doors. If you change and start working with him differently - it could be a rodeo OR it could just be he takes new things easily.

I, generally, start all of ours in an open bridle first. Later, when we add in the blind bridles - you are starting w/ basic ground driving and going thru the steps again. I don't have many pictures & no video of any of mine on their *first* attempts at ground driving - it would probably be difficult to watch - both boring and then suddenly "exciting" as things speed up & some get a little upset while figuring things out. They learn to accept different things attached to them - either a pool noodle or pvc shaft, then the traces dragging on the ground with a single tree and then attached to the pvc pipe and tires. They learn to ground drive off our property, over ditches, next to traffic and thru water. Thru all of that if they get upset while working in an enclosed area - I can still turn one line loose (even if I'm outside in the open, I've done this if necessary to re-gain control)...

A lot of the show horse trainers don't introduce the same type things as I do. Also, a show cart weighs and sounds different than say a metal ez enty cart. I have at least one pony now who goes "nuts" if hooked to a metal ez entry cart. Hook to a wooden cart or as a pair to anything (makes more noise in her work harness, go figure) she's fine... I want a lower, "freeer" frame on my "cross country" horses - no check or if the harness has one, not tight enuf to hold heads up or even encourage it. Does that mean that my horses travel w/ their heads always down - NO. Mine wear breeching from day one when I first start working them now.

BUT mine don't get the show ring training at this time. I haven't done that and don't really know the best way to do that - I've been told by showring trainers that it's really best to train them from the beginning to work "in frame" and checked up. Several of the videos I have show that, too. They are constantly conditioned that way from the beginning - developing the muscle required to carry themselves that way. me - coming from a dressage and working western background - that just seems wrong...LOL.

Over the last 2 years, I've come into contact with quite a number of ponies that were started and worked in Amish country. They are used to just being hooked & hitched (and don't take too long or they get upset), worked with blinds and fully (tightly?) checked and heading down the road. They also seemed to alternate at working on a pretty "tight" rein and a loose, "dangling" rein. Getting them to walk right at the beginning was sometimes difficult as they were set that they got hooked and taken to the road and they'd often trot miles to get into town. AND that trot is not a slow jog but could be quite fast! NOW, it's possible they were sold because they had some issues that weren't suitable any more for the work they were doing - I DON"T know. The ones (I think 6 or 7 total) that I handled directly also had little give to the sides - no bend in their bodies. Getting it was interesting! And with two turned into upsetting and difficult works for both them and me... and again - in the amish communities, there are different trainers and handlers and not everyone is the same.

I may be seeing how Jason Prince does his training with the harness ponies. He had our Buckeye colt last year as a yearling and has him this year as a 2 yr old for halter showing. I watched how they handled their harness ponies at both Congress and Nationals last year - all were easy to handle and happy. Our colt came home last winter and literally got very little handling while out on pasture being a stud colt with a group of geldings and colts - I wanted him to have time to "be a horse". He became very friendly - often coming to the gate to be petted on!! Not sure how we will work this fall/next spring yet for driving training and showing next year... He's entered in the ASPC Futurity program.


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## paintponylvr (May 21, 2013)

Search this forum - there were quite a number of us that were all updating with new training on a training thread. Lots of pictures and stories - some with links to more pictures (I have LOTS of photos).

Also, think it was StudioXX (?) that did a series of videos over the winter showing her work with two different yearlings at the very beginning. Before wearing harness and bridles - and showed "line" driving with one line.

There are many others - I'm still going thru them myself! I'm finding that driving is a never ending learning process as your own knowledge increases.


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## DixieGirl89 (May 21, 2013)

Well it was really nice today so I thought hey why not start now? The headstall I have for him has blinders and Im not sure if they come off, but I put it on him anyways. He took it like a champ and stood there while I tried to figure out his gear lol. He most definitely needs work! He knows how to go forward, just not in a straight line, he keeps trying to turn around. He knew how to sidestep which was pretty awesome, and he knew a little tap on the bottom with the long reins meant go; he also knew me being behind him (in the beginning) meant work. He's obviously been out of commission for a while. I could not for the life of me figure out how to put his surcingle on, it seemed way too big and loose, but it was in fact his. 100% positive I was putting it on wrong or something. How do I prevent this horse from turning around? He goes for a little bit, then fights like a mad man, he spins around and I get hold of his reins and get back behind him but he twists so fast its hard to keep him straight. Any suggestions?

ETA: I tied him up with the bridle still on to go get some water, and when I came back he was all squared up and parked out! Clearly the boy knows something lol.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 21, 2013)

Good for you for making a start



First I think you really need to get him in an open bridle for now. He is probably trying to keep his eyes on you to see what you want. Second (please forgive me if I seem like I'm criticizing) don't use the reins for a go forward cue (only chuckwagon ponies and horses in old westerns are driven this way) you need to keep light contact on those reins because once he is back in a closed bridle his only means of communication with you is thro your voice which you will use occasionally, the whip which you will find a great aid and the reins which when contact is maintained will help him feel secure rather than blind folded and abandoned. So please use a whip (as an aid only, not to whack him with) to ask him to go forward and tap him on the hip (some horse respond negatively to being cued with a tap on the top of the rump) As for turning towards you, this is less likely to happen if he is lunged first, and you literally drive him on a circle around you (double lunge) at first, then gradually drop back into the position you need to be in. You have jumped ahead a bit by trying to blinder him and drive him right off IMO. First the open bridle(you can always fashion one from braided twine or.... if you don't have one), then one line (preferably in a round pen or other enclosed space) and then intro the second line without doing more than letting the outside line sit around his quarters and then finally make light contact on both lines and work him around you. When he can do walk, trot and canter that way you will be ready to actually try to drive him again. Then if he spins toward you you have already given him the training to go around you and can just loosen the outside line and send him around preventing a full on stop that may lead to him using it as an evasive tactic when asked to work. Can't really offer any thoughts on the issue with the surcingle without seeing what is the trouble, sorry.


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## Marsha Cassada (May 22, 2013)

Yes, please use a whip. It is an extention of one's arm to cue. Flapping reins do not send the same cue as a tap of one's "hand". Twirling around is common for a beginner. Use the whip to cue him moving forward.

If he is going forward straight and you ask him to turn, the whip cue goes on the same side of the turn on the hind end. The bit/rein asks him to "steer", and the whip asks his hind leg to move under him as he turns. If you put pressure on the bit to turn left, cue the hind on the left. The shoulders (steering) turn and the motor (hind) moves under--away from the cue-- to propel. In a perfect world, you should get a straight horse, instead of a U shaped horse in a turn.

I, personally, think the blinder bridle is fine to start in.

My driving companions are western trail riders. They flap their reins while riding and can't seem to get the idea of having a whip for driving, as an extension of their arms to cue. I cringe, watching them flap their reins while driving their miniatures. The only thing that works for, anyway, is "hurry up".


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## rabbitsfizz (May 22, 2013)

I am a rein flapper and it is an awful habit! Do not get into it and then you will not have to break it! I can see no reason on earth why a horse that goes |OK in an open bridle HAS to be put into a blind bridle, none of mine ever are unless they need it. If you need to show then you may need a blind bridle depending on the rules you show under but most horses are OK with the occasional use of blind bridles so long as they are fully explained to them!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 22, 2013)

For what its worth rabittsfizz, I agree with you. I see no reason to reduce the vision for most horses and in fact think many are much more tense in a closed bridle and less reliable. However, it is required for showing and I do believe every horse should learn to accept them at some point, regardless of whether the present owner/handler plans to show. I have a mare here who has never gone without the blinders and in fact as far as I am aware was trained in a closed bridle and does fine but I feel it is a gap in her training.


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## DixieGirl89 (May 23, 2013)

I'll try to get those blinders off of the headstall, I would much rather not have them on anyways just so he can see me lland what I'm asking him to do for now. It rained yesterday so I couldn't go out, and it's raining right now, so Idk if today is going to be another training day or not. I had no idea rein flapping was a bad habit lol! Kinda like staring at the back of your horses head instead of looking where you're going. I'll try to snap a pic of him with the surcingle on, I know it's not supposed to slide like that, it's supposed to fit properly and snug like a saddle would. But I have everything on the last notch and it's still loose.. If I make it out there today I'll hook him up and let you guys figure out what is wrong with me and why I can't put this bloody thing on lol. Reignmaker I respect your responses and do not apologize if you think you are being critical, I really need constructive critisizm at this point lol.


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## paintponylvr (May 24, 2013)

If your blinders aren't easy to remove, just make a cord or nylon or leather headstall for him to start w/o blinders. In western speak -it was called a bit hanger instead of a full head stall. I do like the browband and throatlatch and there are reasons for using them -but if you put the bit holder over a halter they aren't really necessary for the beginning training. You could even just tie the bit to the metal rings of your halter. With our "babies", I often hook the snaps (smaller ones) thru the bit ring and the halter ring at the same time as they are learning to accept the bit and different pressures. The pic below also shows the balancing side reins I've used when lounging and ground driving. She could see thru the flymask and she isn't wearing a halter.






To prevent some of the whirling - start out lounging - literally. Then after you know that he will lounge (lets go to the left or counter clockwise), you move up to him and hook the outside driving line and just run it over his back from the right side of his bridle. Move back to your lounging position and again start lounging to the left. Then start taking hold of the outside line. If he gets upset & speeds up, encourage him to trot - loosen the outside line so you aren't putting pressure on it. When you ask him to slow down, take up on the outside line as well as the inside lounge line. You are not behind him, you are lounging him with an extra line. Nothing is run thru the surcingle.











It does work best if you have at least one fenceline to work against. That way, you take up/add pressure on outside line when he's against the fence. It will help some what to keep him from whirling. Instead of having him turn into the center, you can turn him into the fence and YOU cross back over to a lounging position - taking up the right line now as your direct lounging line and the left line as your loose line. Again if he gets upset, you can encourage him to trot while you are lounging him.

How long are the driving lines you are using? If they are too short (the driving lines that came with your harness won't work) you won't be able to do this type of work. Regular lounge lines work better. The ones on the two yr old filly above and below are 20' long.

Practice holding your lines with your whip before you try handling him. You can hook your lines to the fence. Even better, a pseudo reinboard by hooking the lines to water bottles, put over a rail, and practice holding the lines and "turning" the horse. Your whip is held w/ the right line in your right hand and can be "rested" on your left wrist when not in use (when driving for anything but the AMHR/ASPC showring you hold the whip to the left at 45* angle while driving. You will also sit on the right side of your driving vehicle unless you are driving a single seat cart.)






Personally, I always start with no whip when I'm first ground driving. I use voice commands along with the lounging and none of our youngsters - at this point - are not dead heads that won't step out when given the command to walk, walk on or trot. Our issue is usually staying at a walk w/o me "dragging" on their mouths...

Here's a shot that actually shows me in a "lounging position" while ground driving. This is what it looks like when you first "drop" the outside line behind the rump. To be able to use/engage the whip, you will have to be much closer to your horse. It doesn't work well from a tru lounging position. My whips aren't long enough. A true lounge whip gets heavy real quick, too.






There are several books dealing with long lining up to ground driving and then hitching... I will need to pull up actual titles. Several recommend that when you first start ground driving from behind the horse, you have a helper leading him. I don't have a helper most times, so I started with the lounging and go from there.

It takes time to learn to handle the lines with the right amount of pressure to keep the horse from spinning and facing you. That's why I recommended that you not put the inside line thru the rein turrets at all. When I put a line thru the terrets the first time, I always pick a side and then the line thru the terrets are the outside. That way, if he spins to face you or you get tangled up, you turn loose of the outside line. Yes, that means that to switch directions you stop and change the lines around when you want to change directions. But at first you want to stop a lot to change what you are doing, so changing the line to the other side gets your horse and you used to stopping and making harness adjustments. Lots of practice of standing still in between work outs. Then you start doing some changes of directions again - w/ just one line thru the terrets. Again, if there is a problem, resort to lounging - dropping the line thru the terrets. Get him stopped and fixed, then start again.


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## paintponylvr (May 24, 2013)

I do use the lounging "trick" for a long time with our youngsters. Part of the reason - my weight stresses my knees. I've had knee surgery on the left knee many years ago. For a lot of years afterwards, I wore that knee brace on the left leg where it belonged. The winter of 2010/2011, I strained the right knee and it took 9 months for it to return to some semblance of working. I didn't have surgery. But I couldn't keep up with the ponies (or the smaller minis either) in straight lines. So, I "circle drove" them for a long time! I only got behind them when I was making figure 8's and crossing behind them to circle the other direction.

Then I started trying to stay behind them for more than two steps - as soon as I started "dragging on them", I would circle them again. It was an easy way for me to work with them, get them used to being behind them and build us both up. I was working 3 young mares that summer from the ground - 1 three yr old and 2 two yr olds.

We would do 1/2 circle serpentines all over the place. The straight lines became longer as my leg got stronger and they were able to handle me being behind them. I used the 1/2 circles to trot and then asked them to walk the straight lines. I got good at crossing behind them while holding the lines evenly, too. We did this when they were hitched to what ever they were pulling at first too. I don't think I ever start out ground driving in a straight line at first.

Edit - Here's a link to a photo album of a 3 yr old gelding we are working now. The most current batch of pics is on top. The first one is the first one of that session thru the end of the session. Then the next batch has a different date, but starts at the beginning until the end of that day... So you can sort of see some progression... Starting with lounging, circle driving and then moving behind him to ground drive. I don't have pics of his first works. He started on the 5th of March.

https://picasaweb.google.com/purplepaintpony/CupidStuffyS2010ShetlandGelding#5869693681277051922 I need to go do another photo shoot with where he is now.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 24, 2013)

Your pictures really help make clear what you are saying. I use very much the same methods as you and also work alone almost entirely. I find it easier most of the time since I don't have to hope the 2nd person can keep up with my intent when I must react quickly for some reason. However, for people with access to a 2nd person there are places in training where it takes less experience (and time ) if there are 2 people working together.


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## rabbitsfizz (May 25, 2013)

I could not manage these days without my round pens. I have a small one for starting and a big horse size one that doubles as a foal paddock for starting work in (but not with the cart, that I do in the open) You can just get a set of riding bridle cheek-pieces and buckle them into the bridle that comes with the harness, or even use a riding bridle- but I don't use a bit at all until the horse is actually going freely


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