# team cart



## Molly's Run Minis (Jun 8, 2011)

what is the best brand or type of cart to get for a team, a metal or a wooden one? i've heard some people say wooden because it's heavier and sturdier but i'm not sure...

ETA: also, how do you go about hitching up a team? i know how to hitch a single horse but i've never had to hitch a team.

just for fun, could those of you with teams post some pics? thanks


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## RhineStone (Jun 9, 2011)

You don't put a pair to a cart. You put them to a four-wheeled vehicle. Putting a pair to a cart is dangerous. There are not too many manufacturers making a four-wheeled vehicle for minis.

We have a Kutzmann Feel X marathon carriage for our pair. There are photos on our website under 2011 Carriage Show Photos.

Myrna


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## Kendra (Jun 9, 2011)

Here's a few photos of our teams - they're all in draft harness/wagons, just like a heavy horse. The wagons were all built by my grandad.






Zac & Valdez






Zac & Duke






eight horse hitch






Zac & Valdez, Image & Vixen, Chris & Dude






Chris & Dude


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## Performancemini (Jun 9, 2011)

LOVE LOVE LOVE the photo with the Clydes behind!!!



Miss our retired team looking at these!


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## Molly's Run Minis (Jun 9, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> You don't put a pair to a cart. You put them to a four-wheeled vehicle. Putting a pair to a cart is dangerous.
> 
> Myrna



how is it dangerous?


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## CZP1 (Jun 9, 2011)

I have never seen a pair of minis pulling a two wheeled cart. It would not be correctly balanced for more than one.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Jun 10, 2011)

CZP1 said:


> I have never seen a pair of minis pulling a two wheeled cart. It would not be correctly balanced for more than one.


what if you put a cart connecter on? that would make it a 4 wheeled vehical.


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## mrsj (Jun 10, 2011)

Sorry, can't help with the question but love the 8 horse team, Kendra!


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## Jetiki (Jun 10, 2011)

Adding a cart connector doenst make into a proper or properly balanced 4wheel vehicle in fact it probably makes the balance worse. Two wheeled carts are not designed to be used for a pair they aren't wide enough nor heavy enough for a pair just because they are minis downed change these factors you will also have more side torque on the wheels with a pair and most run of the mill easy entry carts do not have the wheels to handle this. Its not just a matter of wheels though its a matter of cart dimensions construction etc. Has it been done yes but is it safe no.


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## RhineStone (Jun 10, 2011)

Molly said:


> how is it dangerous? what if you put a cart connecter on? that would make it a 4 wheeled vehical.


There are many mini people that want to try to put a pair to a cart, and it is not an acceptable configuration in the driving world except with certain vehicles more designed to do it. But your average Easy Entry cart, even though the manufacturer makes a team pole for it, is not a safe vehicle. Apparently those manufacturers are only concerned about selling products that uneducated [about driving] people will purchase, and don't understand or care about the ramifications for the purchaser.

First of all, a cart is too light for a pair, especially bigger horses. If the vehicle is too light, the driver feels like a waterskier on the end of a string. It is not a good feeling, and the vehicle can be whipped around quite easily. That is true no matter what the size of the horses are (minis or Morgans, etc.)

Second, think of the mechanics involved in a pair put to an average cart. When a single is put to a cart, the cart is held up by the horse's back through the saddle and tugs, which is easier for the horse to balance. When a pair is put to a cart, it is held up by the horses' necks. The requirements of driving are asking a horse to carry its own weight on his hind end, but with the pole being attached to their collars, they can't possibly get even their own weight on their hinds. They are being dragged down from the front end where they already carry too much of their own weight, especially if they are green and/or not properly schooled in dressage. If one of those horses happens to trip and fall, the whole turnout will fall over. Turns are also very unstable. Whereas when put to a four-wheeled vehicle, the horses are only holding up the pole and are not balancing the vehicle at all. On our vehicle, they are not even holding up the pole because of how it is designed. The fifth wheel supports the turning of the vehicle and not the horses.

In the few tradtional carriages (carts) that were designed for a pair, they have a connector bar that holds up the vehicle from the horses' backs. Even so, those vehicles were few and far between because even in the 1800's, people realized that it was not the safest way to go. Again, one horse trips, and the whole kit and kaboodle goes over.

We have one mare that is "leaning away from the pole" because she is still trying to find her own balance with the vehicle attached. She is getting support from the vehicle. She needs more work in the single cart to learn to "hold herself up". But what that does is make her partner lean away, too, not to be pulled over. This is a pretty typical "problem" with pairs. I can't imagine dealing with that put to a cart. They would pull the whole thing right over!

Those "cart connector" trailers should be outlawed IMO. They are a bad idea right from the start. They make the turnout too heavy for one mini, and more unstable for a pair. Again, manufacturers making an uneducated buck. Have you ever seen a trailer for a big horse vehicle? No.

Just like I have harped on before, don't do anything with a mini that you wouldn't do with a big horse. Whatever you do contributes to the acceptance or rejection of minis and their drivers. (Written for the masses reading this post.)

Myrna


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## CZP1 (Jun 10, 2011)

I think what the previous posts should sum up why it isn't safe. Better to be safe than sorry.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Jun 10, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> There are many mini people that want to try to put a pair to a cart, and it is not an acceptable configuration in the driving world except with certain vehicles more designed to do it. But your average Easy Entry cart, even though the manufacturer makes a team pole for it, is not a safe vehicle. Apparently those manufacturers are only concerned about selling products that uneducated [about driving] people will purchase, and don't understand or care about the ramifications for the purchaser.
> 
> First of all, a cart is too light for a pair, especially bigger horses. If the vehicle is too light, the driver feels like a waterskier on the end of a string. It is not a good feeling, and the vehicle can be whipped around quite easily. That is true no matter what the size of the horses are (minis or Morgans, etc.)
> 
> ...


thank you for this info! i had no idea it was so dangerous to put a team to a cart, i just figured that since team poles are sold with them that it was ok. i guess i was wrong!

i have never driven a pair of minis, only drafts and that was on an excercise sled. thank you for educating me! i guess i'm off to look for a mini wagon! does anyone have any recommendations that wont break the bank to badly?


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## RhineStone (Jun 10, 2011)

Molly said:


> thank you for this info! i had no idea it was so dangerous to put a team to a cart, i just figured that since team poles are sold with them that it was ok. i guess i was wrong!


You are entirely welcome! I have a sneaking suspicion that is why most mini people want to get a pole for their cart. It just makes me glad that I was able to keep someone from doing something stupid.



I hope that more people read these posts and learn the same. That is totally why I write them.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 10, 2011)

Having not yet driven this arrangement I can't discuss whether it's too light for a set of small, refined A minis, but I can definitely say having the entire vehicle being held up by the horses' necks is a bad idea. Every time you went down a slope all the weight would tip forward and slam them in the neck. Every time you went uphill if the driver and passenger leaned back, the pole would try to flip up and choke them. Given that you don't have shaft wraps or any sort of overgirth arrangement holding the pole down, you might even flip right over backwards and take the horses with you!



What a mess.



RhineStone said:


> In the few tradtional carriages (carts) that were designed for a pair, they have a connector bar that holds up the vehicle from the horses' backs. Even so, those vehicles were few and far between because even in the 1800's, people realized that it was not the safest way to go. Again, one horse trips, and the whole kit and kaboodle goes over.
> We have one mare that is "leaning away from the pole" because she is still trying to find her own balance with the vehicle attached. She is getting support from the vehicle. She needs more work in the single cart to learn to "hold herself up". But what that does is make her partner lean away, too, not to be pulled over. This is a pretty typical "problem" with pairs. I can't imagine dealing with that put to a cart. They would pull the whole thing right over!


Okay, help me out here. First of all I agree with everything else you posted Myrna, so don't think I'm debating your point. I just have a couple of questions on parts I don't understand. Why, exactly, would the"whole rig go over" because one horse went down?



I'm picturing the mechanics in my mind and just not coming up with how that would happen. I've seen a Frontier with team pole flip sideways because it was too light, they took a turn too fast, and the top-heavy load simply overbalanced and flipped, but I don't get how one horse going down would cause that. It would definitely dump the cart forward and probably toss the driver and passenger up onto the horses' rears (read: Disaster!) but I don't understand how it would flip the rig sideways. Same thing with the leaning- as long as BOTH are leaning, they should counter-balance each other, right? Not a good thing by a long shot, but not going to pull the rig over.





Help me picture this!

I've also seen multiple large horses put to chariots and similar vehicles, and there's even a pair of draft donks in Idaho that drive a two-wheeled Pacific with a pair pole. I hope the guy from Pacific isn't considered an uneducated sells-whatever-will-make-a-buck idiot!





Leia


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## RhineStone (Jun 10, 2011)

I saw that donkey article and wondered what on earth they were thinking.





We have a friend that has a big horse chariot for his Morabs, and I don't know why that works. Maybe the low axle keeps the weight and the center of gravity really low?

The other point about if one horse goes down the other goes with it was actually in the Looking at Carriages book by Sallie Walrond describing the Curricle setup with the bar connecting the horses, but it occurred to me that could happen with a pair connected to each other via an evener, too. When one horse goes down with a four-wheeled vehicle, it is not supporting the weight of the vehicle. But when one goes down with a two-wheeler without a sprung pole, it could drag the other with it, dropping the pole on the ground and potentially ejecting the people if the pole snagged the ground hard enough. I'm not sure it could flip it sideways, but it could create a mess.

As far as the leaning goes, I have seen some pair horses lean so bad that yes, one is holding the other up at practically a 45-degree angle to the ground. What happens when the unbalanced horse all of a sudden shies at something and jumps into the pole? That would completely unbalance the vehicle. Moreso my point was without getting too technical is that there is a lot more going on with a pair of horses than the average beginner driver realizes. It's not just "let's hook up two horses and drive off".

Regardless, it is not an acceptable way to drive a pair.

Myrna


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## R Whiteman (Jun 10, 2011)

The standard two-wheel cart that has the conversion kit to convert it from shafts to a pole assembly are not usually considered safe by most. However, there is a two-wheel cart that is designed for used with pairs or more. It is called a forecart. I have spent many hours in the seat of one behind a pair working the hay fields. They are designed for used in front of farm equipment like rakes and discs and such. I did a quick search of the Internet and found several sites that sell them. Many of the sites have photos that show the specs. These vehicles are designed to be used with a load attached behind them but I drove to and from the farm fields many times without a problem . Forecarts were used for years with drafts before tractors came along. I still see some farmers using them with draft horses in our area . I have seen only one used with a team of miniatures. It seem to work just find and did not have all the horrible potential consequences pointed out by others. It might be worth exploring. They might cost more than a 4-wheel cart however.

Just another point of view,

Ron


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## Matthijs (Jul 16, 2011)

And then there is the Pacific Smart cart. Yes we made it out alright, fire-truck was there on an unrelated business.

This was our first pair hook up today. The harness still needs some work and so does the balance of the cart.

But look at those two girls going perfectly in step.

I would not want to do this with one of those cheap EE carts, because you can sure feel the power of these two girls. They are only 32" and 34" but they could easily rip one of those carts apart


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 16, 2011)

Thank you for the pictures, Matthijs! Your girls look very neat with the russet-lined harnesses and the Smart Cart.



I've been doing some research the last week or two on miniature forecarts and found a nice vendor I'd be willing to recommend based on his customer service. Calvin at Buggy.com has a true miniature scale (not pony sized) forecart for $685 with evener and neck yoke and he said shipping to Washington state would be about $100 disassembled. The guy knew the weight for every single part of the vehicle down to the pound, was willing to customize and it's correctly scaled for 32-34" miniatures.

I have written a small check for a customized, adjustable miniature pair pole for my EE as a careful experiment but if I cannot mitigate the risk factors I will keep the pole itself for use with a ground-driving apparatus or future chariot and order the forecart until such a time as I can afford the Tadpole marathon carriage of my dreams. I hope I'm not being hopelessly naive and intend to go forward very cautiously but I believe I can keep the weight ratio per horse the same as when driving single and have some ideas for the balance, stability and weight on their necks. We shall see. Kody needs the pair equivalent of a Hyperbike as his back is still not up to par with normal loads and Turbo is totally unmuscled so at least for the first few pair drives on flat ground I think we should be okay. I may be eating my words though!





Matthijs, keep us updated please. I'm very curious how you work the balance out and whether you like the results!

Leia


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## Matthijs (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi Leia,

Second hitch today with Kay our coach. Things are starting to look better, The connector strap between the girth and breast collar is too long, I have to shorten that thing, I would like to get the saddle a little further back and I think I ordered the traces too short, they are in the longest position while the pole is in the shortest. I raised the pole on the cart front and raised the cart one position, will try one higher yet too clear the rains over the buts a little better. Balance was super close today. Small things considering the many adjustment option on the cart.

Kay uses a forecart for breaking horses by the way Leia. That cart seems very cheap, it is only a little more dough then our pair pole. It may work well for training and for use in loose sand.





Thanks for your input, it is appreciated.


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## Matthijs (Jul 17, 2011)

picture did make it, lets try again


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## Melinda Dean (Jul 17, 2011)

Hi,

My question is... what is your intended use of the pair? Then decide on type of vehicle.

I have been going through this same process myself. All I wanted was a vehicle I could take a passenger in, for easy, dirt road type of rides around the neighborhood. I ordered this from Buggy Bobs. (Just Goggle Buggy Bobs). Right now, it is set up for my single B mini, but I ordered the double hitch with it too. His site shows lots of teams hitched up. I met the people who have the same one shown with the trainer and the pair in S.C. They really like it. I talked to their trainer who will be working with mine soon. She said it was a very good choice for me.

I went to Adult Driving Camp In S.C. to learn better driving skills with single. While there, Muffy Seaton had me driving a mini pair so I would begin to understand how much more I needed to know before trying it at home. Believe me, hitching them up can wear a soul out. Even the experienced pair was a lot different for me. One did that leaning thing a lot, so I had to really pay attention. It was hard work!

My future plan is to send my single driver to her place to learn be part of a pair. My younger horse will go to there to learn basic single driving, and when ready, they will both go back and see if they can be a pair. I will also go back and learn with them. I am getting too old to do it all by my self at home.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 17, 2011)

Thanks for the picture, Melinda!



Matthijs said:


> The connector strap between the girth and breast collar is too long, I have to shorten that thing, I would like to get the saddle a little further back and I think I ordered the traces too short, they are in the longest position while the pole is in the shortest.


I DETEST those side rigging rings. Ugh, ugh, ugh! Minis are just way too compact for that much stuff on their sides IMO. Every set I've seen (and we've got quite a few around here) are always being pulled forward or back out of alignment and it makes the harness look sloppy. I know a gentleman in England who uses pair Freedom Collars on his four-in-hand of black minis with the rigging rings and he replaced that too-long front connector strap with a short load-rated carabiner or similar metal snap which worked much better and made hitching quick and easy. I would personally get rid of the rigging rings entirely and connect the breeching holdbacks directly to the breastcollar with a cheater strap running through the middle of the holdback to keep it close to the horse's side. It looks much neater as well as being more efficient because it does not interfer with breeching function the way the ring does nor involve the saddle in braking.



Matthijs said:


> Kay uses a forecart for breaking horses by the way Leia. That cart seems very cheap, it is only a little more dough then our pair pole. It may work well for training and for use in loose sand.


I saw that! When I googled "miniature horse forecarts" I saw her pix on the Ron's Harness website and recognized her and Charlie. I'd been considering contacting her to ask where she got it and how much it weighed before I found Calvin. I do need a vehicle with pneumatic tires so I can use it on our beach drives.

How's the neck yoke working out for you? It looks like you're using snap shackles to connect it directly to the inside D ring? Since a drop pole (which a two-wheeler essentially must be) should have a yoke to the center of the chest I've been trying to figure out how to attach it to a set of pair D's at the right height. Any ideas? Pictures?

Leia


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## Matthijs (Jul 18, 2011)

Hi Leia,

Yes I will likely get cheater straps, the holdback strap for the britching is too short to directly go to the collar, but that can be fixed.

Yes the yoke is attached with two snaps to the inside D ring.

This D ring is offset by 3" so the distance between the D rings is 6".

Initially I had my doubts too about it not being in the center but it works great I must admit.

I used two Taiwan made $25.00 snaps from a marine supply store here in town. Apparently the good ones cost $80.00 and are made in France.

Anybody have more knowledge about these?

I will get some pics up later. Today we drove them single, we were instructed by Kay to switch horses so when driving the pair they both know us and learn to trust both of us.

To be continued...

PS we would love to come and drive in your beach ride, but crossing the border sort of deters us.

Oh yes, the height of the front of the pair pole is very adjustable with the pacific smart cart.

And balancing is done in about two minutes, the only thing is to do it when no horse is hitched so you can actually feel the cart in your hands as you hold it at the level when hitched.

How adjustable are those fore carts????


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jul 18, 2011)

Matthijs said:


> I used two Taiwan made $25.00 snaps from a marine supply store here in town. Apparently the good ones cost $80.00 and are made in France.Anybody have more knowledge about these?


The Coachman's Delight website says "Don't compromise when it comes to safety. Buy a snap shackle that will OPEN when you need it to. Guaranteed for Life!

The whole reason for using a snap shackle to attach your horse to a carriage is safety. The concept is simple. If there is an emergency and you need to get you horse unhitched quickly, you'll need a quick release system to make it happen. Leather or pvc harness isn't going to yield when under pressure.

CAUTION

Many knock off snap shackles will stay closed under really trying conditions. Certainly staying closed would be a minimum requirement. But a good quality snap shackle will open no matter what kind of weight you put it under. I've been in sticky situations where a carriage or horse was down, and the cheap knock off shackles the owner used wouldn't release. It takes a tense situation and makes it down right scary.

Click on the pictures at the left for close up view with detailed specs on the size and load limits of each shackle.

Use the 80mm web shackles to snap into your breeching, without damaging your holdback straps. The web triangle will accommodate up to 1.25 inch straps. Use the 100mm web shackles for pole straps. The triangle will accommodate up to 1.5” strap.

All Wichard snap shackles are guaranteed for life! Don’t take chances when it comes to your safety, your horse’s safety, and the safety of those who might need to help you in an emergency."

The diameters he's referring to are for full-sized horses, Carriage Driving Essentials in CA has the smaller ones for minis here for $59.95 for two varieties and $79.95 for the other style. Andy had those same mini snap shackles last time I saw his booth but they didn't include the red pull tags.



Matthijs said:


> PS we would love to come and drive in your beach ride, but crossing the border sort of deters us.


I understand, believe me. That's the same reason I haven't come and enjoyed your lovely CDE's!



Matthijs said:


> How adjustable are those fore carts????


Good question. Wish I knew the answer.

Leia


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