# Miniature horse driving bits...



## Margo_C-T (Nov 8, 2005)

I have a couple of mini driving bits that I really like-the style and construction of them-and would love to find out if they are still being made, and if so, by whom, and where I could shop for others(I have a B mare that really needs a slightly wider bit, for instance). I am hoping that some of you who are 'dyed-in-the-wool' drivers might recognize these bits and/or their maker, and/or who sells them?

Here's a description of each: first one is stainless,a standard broken mouthpiece, non-pinch attachment of mouthpiece to cheeks. Each half-cheek tapers smoothly to be flatter,and slighly flared, on the end-and each has etched on it, a capital "S" in a sort of "italic"(?) font. It also has a very small "joint" in the center of the mouthpiece. Very nicely made.

The second one has a copper twisted wire broken mouthpiece. The rest of the bit is also of stainless. The bottom of each half-cheek is totally flattened, and straight up and down. On one of the cheek rings, there is the number "218", and on the other cheek ring, a logo that looks like a backward capital R, joined to a capital K, inside of parentheses. These are stamped into the steel.

I would surely appreciate it if anyone has any information on these bits. I am especially interested in other bits by the first maker. (Edited to add: Sorry, no pictures.)

Thanks for any info!!

Margo


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## Bluerocket (Nov 8, 2005)

Got Pictures?


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## Sue_C. (Nov 8, 2005)

I am sure I have seen bits similar to the first one mentioned...right down to the "s". If I can find out where it came from, I will be sure to let you know. Weaver and Kelly both make nice bits, perhaps you can find them in one of their books.

BUT, as for this one...



> "The second one has a copper twisted wire broken mouthpiece."


In my honest opinion...twisted wire snaffles shouldn't even be manufactured, let alone used. I know; used in the right hands, any bit can be a "good" bit...but in all my years of rehabilitating rank horses, and/or starting nice well-behaved young horses, I have never felt the need. I prohibit anyone from using one in my stable. Sorry Hon...just had to get on my soap-box on that one.





Actually, I do not think a twisted wire snaffle is even legal according to the AMHA and AMHR rulebooks. Goodness, the AMHR doesn't even allow liverpool bits with any mouthpiece...and they aren't "bad" bits. I know twisted wore bits are not allowed according to the Equine Canadian rulebook, and the American Driving rulebook ususally is pretty well the same.


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 8, 2005)

I'm afraid you misunderstood, but fear not, Sue C.- I have never, nor do I expect to ever, actually use the twisted wire bit on ANY horse. I agree in principle with your statements regarding them-certainly would not recommend one to anyone- though in the hands of a very skillful horseman, there might be some circumstance in which one *might*,temporarily, be used-I consider myself at that skill level, yet I have never seen a need to actually USE this type of bit-not in all of MY years of working with horses, big and small. I acquired this bit in a group I bought from someone who wasn't going to be doing any more driving. It is the MAKER I am interested in, as I like the bit's OTHER construction features, and would like to find out what else they have to offer.





So-where would I access Weaver's and Kelly's(geez, I hadn't heard of Kelly bits in YEARS!!)books?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 8, 2005)

Chimacum tack sells the Weaver bits in mini size, that's where I got Kody's.



> Actually, I do not think a twisted wire snaffle is even legal according to the AMHA and AMHR rulebooks. Goodness, the AMHR doesn't even allow liverpool bits with any mouthpiece...and they aren't "bad" bits.


Ah-ha! I've never understood why they wouldn't allow traditional driving bits like the liverpool to be used, but something about the way you phrased that all of a sudden it made sense to me. They don't allow liverpools and other leverage bits because checks are required and so many people use martingales. Okay, maybe not BECAUSE of that, but it would be cruel to allow uneducated or uncaring folks to legally use a leverage bit with those other pieces of equipment tightened. The amount of PRESSURE you could put on a horse's mouth that way is just unbelievable, and there is no way for them to escape it when they are tied in place both up and down. Ah, the light goes on.

Sorry, babbling I know. But I just got it all of a sudden and I was giddy with discovery. LOL

Leia


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 8, 2005)

Actually, AMHA does allow various leverage driving bits, but the Rulebook illustrates that they are acceptable ONLY in the "no-leverage",or,the first slot ( best I can tell from the drawings!) rein positions(excluding multiple hitches)---and, martingales aren't allowed with any leverage bit. Am not up-to-date on AMHR's current rules, but seem to remember that indeed, they don't allow liverpools,period. AMHA does NOT specifically address mouthpiece configuration; don't care to take the time to try to look up AMHR's position on that subject, just at this moment....so don't know about them.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 8, 2005)

> I'm afraid you misunderstood, but fear not, Sue C.-


Margo_C-T, I knew you knew I knew you knew, about twisted bits...but there are soooo many people here that are new to the game, and I do have a "thing" about these bit in the hands of most. (If not any) clear as mud?










> They don't allow liverpools and other leverage bits because checks are required and so many people use martingales. Okay, maybe not BECAUSE of that, but it would be cruel to allow uneducated or uncaring folks to legally use a leverage bit with those other pieces of equipment tightened.


But the AMHA, and ASPA does allow them, it is only the AMHR that doesn't, and that just doesn't make sense.

As far as checks go, the check attaches either to it's own bit, as in an overcheck, and a sidecheck attaches at the top of the bit. It doesn't affect the leverage of the bit at all, any more than it would on a regular half check snaffle.

As for using a martingale with a leverage bit, if the people who do this are excused from the ring, as they should be, then it wouldn't take long to stop the practice. All that needs be done, is amend the rules to disallow use of martingales with leverage bits. The AMHA shows specifically what slots the reins are allowed to be in, as well...keeping the use of leverage to a minimum.

As for Weaver and Kelly bits, I am sure that you can find them here on the "net". I have a several of both types, and find them to be of excellent quality.


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## Dr. Pam (Nov 8, 2005)

Ahhhh....but twisted wire snaffles ARE allowed in AMHR.



> Bits in the pleasure driving division shall be of the snaffle type.  No liverpool bits, curb chains or curb straps are allowed.


 I know several trainers who routinely use them. Not saying right or wrong, just stating facts.
I have wondered if straight bar or mullen mouth bits are legal...if I remember, there was a knock down drag out discussion last year at convention about what the legal definition of a snaffle is.....


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## Chynagurl8 (Nov 8, 2005)

I am not seeing the conflict here, a twisted wire is a snaffle bit. Yes it is more severve than a smooth snaffle, but some horses need a stronger bit, same goes with large horses. Just because a horse is only 30-somthing inches tall doesn't mean every single horse can be controlled safely with a simple bit. I have two driving horses that need twisted wire bits, or need to be lunged untill they are tired to be safe to drive, even then they still can "run through" a smooth snaffle. That being said I would never agree with starting a horse in a twisted wire.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 8, 2005)

> Ahhhh....but twisted wire snaffles ARE allowed in AMHR.






You're not serious!!





They won't allow a liverpool, but will allow a twisted snaffle? How absurd.



> I have wondered if straight bar or mullen mouth bits are legal...if I remember, there was a knock down drag out discussion last year at convention about what the legal definition of a snaffle is.....


I have always been told, and agree; that a mullen is generally a more gentle bit than a broken-mouthed bit. (especially for driving) As for the definition of a snaffle, it has always been the _rings_ of the bit which define a snaffle; the _lack of leverage, not the mouthpiece_. For example, the most commonly mistaken name for a bit...the "western snaffle"...is NOT a snaffle bit. It is a leverage bit, with a broken mouth-piece. It is in fact, a curb bit; as is any bit with shanks.


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## Dr. Pam (Nov 8, 2005)

> As for the definition of a snaffle, it has always been the rings of the bit which define a snaffle; the lack of leverage, not the mouthpiece.













YES!!!!!!


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## Feather1414 (Nov 8, 2005)

I find this a very interesting topic.

I myself am NOT a driver - yet, but starting this year I am going to get to learn all about driving. I am breaking my driving horse right now ((with help from a trainer, don't worry)) and I have to wonder why a twisted copper isn't allowed.

I know nothing really about bits and it's all very interesting.

The other thing is for my harness, it came with a straight bar type bit. I personally don't like it, as I feel it would confuse my horse, although thats all I have, and he is taking to ground driving quite well as a result of this bit. Anything I need to know about safety or such when using this bit?

Also, what is a liverpool bit and why is it so bad?


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## Sue_C. (Nov 9, 2005)

Here is a site to read, Feather1414, it is pretty discriptive, and saves me a lot of typing.








Bits

As for a liverpool being a bad bit, I personally don't find that it is, with a mullen, or low port mouthpiece being my preference, and staying on the highest (least harsh) setting. I have one mare who absolutely loves hers; and as I use it on the top setting, through the rings, it is actually just a heavy non-leverage snaffle. I think it is the weight she prefers. Silly mare.





My absolute favorite of all driving bits I have used so far, is a french link half cheek snaffle. But, I use several different bits, depending on the horse, as my horses don't all like what I do.


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## MiniHGal (Nov 9, 2005)

Yes Sue, I know that snaffle is technically the rings of the bit, but to me, it generally means that the bit is broken as well. Probably because that is just how the people I have driven with use the term. Eh, that doesn't even make sense when it comes to French-Link Snaffles, obviously they are broken, but not in the usual sense. And I don't call Liverpools with broken mouthpieces snaffles....





In any case, I am amazed that R allows twisteds but not liverpools!

And in general, I would not want to drive a horse that had to use a twisted wire bit!! Can you imagine how heavily that horse must lean on the bit to make the mouth dull to anything but the twisted? And even hot heads can learn to channel that into proper forward energy, if started right. To me, if the twisted has a use, it is for remedial horses...and even then, I don't know. But then again, I have never brought back horses that have been bad enough to necessiate a twisted.



> Also, what is a liverpool bit and why is it so bad?


Personally, I don't see that a Liverpool is 'bad'...but maybe that is because Fascination uses one!

They can be severe bits because of the leverage capabilities. You can set the rein on the ring or bar, then rough cheek(Fascination), then first slot, then second slot(usually not seen and judges usually take this into account when placing--ie: this horse has a problem or may have been a problem), then third slot(not allowed in ADS at all).

Here is a picture of Fascination, a year and a few months ago(she is still on rough cheek, which is shown in this picture. This bit does not have a third slot.)






Here is a picture of Oliver(same bit), he drove in a mullen mouth Liverpool for a long time, mostly on rough cheek, but also on ring.






For these two horses, they were both started in broken snaffles(half cheek or ring), and were driven in that until they were well-started...and already competing. The broken mouth was too severe for Fascination, however, and she would dip behind the bit and suck back. So the mullen mouth Liverpool is actually a gentler bit. She would also go in a mullen mouth snaffle, but she prefers the extra weight of this bit(weird horse, I know).

I would not start a youngster in a Liverpool; these are 'advanced' bits and aren't able to communicate as well with an untrained mouth. Because of the mullen mouth, your signals to one side move the whole bit, so bending is not as effective. But if your horse prefers the mullen and is sensitive enough to make out the differences, then a mullen mouth is just fine.

Two of the three minis drive in mullen mouths, and one of the big horses(the other drives in a french link snaffle). But then again, we have horses that don't seem to go with the average horse.


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## MiniHGal (Nov 9, 2005)

And no, Margo I don't know about those bits, though the first one rings a bell...somewhere.

LOL, Sue, we said nearly the same thing about our mares!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 9, 2005)

Sue_C. said:


> > They don't allow liverpools and other leverage bits because checks are required and so many people use martingales. Okay, maybe not BECAUSE of that, but it would be cruel to allow uneducated or uncaring folks to legally use a leverage bit with those other pieces of equipment tightened.
> 
> 
> But the AMHA, and ASPA does allow them, it is only the AMHR that doesn't, and that just doesn't make sense.
> ...


I have not driven AMHA yet so the rules I was quoting were probably indeed AMHR. Sorry if I generalized!



I no longer trust judges to monitor safety practices in harness classes- not since coming out of one country pleasure class where my horse had seemed to be working awfully hard only to discover that my breastcollar had slipped down below my horse's shoulder halfway through the class. I could not see it (it was correct when I harnessed) and the judges did not pull me into the center as they are supposed to. I was horrified at what I had unknowingly asked my horse to do, and at what the other exhibitors must have thought of me. I have seen over and over that judges do not do a thing about incorrect harnessing, including marking down the entries for it. Harmful or even illegal setups win classes all the time. Grrr.....

It is correct that the check does not directly affect the leverage of the bit, but the proper use of a leverage bit in dressage terms seems to me to be to encourage the horse to round up and get on the bit. The tight overchecks most often seen in the show ring hold the horse's nose out so that the bit will always be applying pressure instead of lying in the "sweet spot" in the horse's mouth. Hence, my opinion that using a tightened check with a leverage bit is unkind to a horse. I am probably not expressing myself very well, for which I apologize, but the idea I refer to was described in detail in Heike Bean's _Carriage Driving: A Logical Approach Through Dressage Training._

Interesting thread.

Leia


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## USMCshamusmom (Nov 9, 2005)

siron (sirlon) stahl bits or steubben brand names for the s in the bit... try libertyville tack shop at libertyville IL, think they have a website that google should turn up. they used to have lots of bits that could be ordered in mini sizes


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## victoria (Nov 9, 2005)

I have brought 2 half cheek jointed snaffles off ebay recently both were as you describe had the S on the cheeks, I assumed it meant stainless and not nickle plated.


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## willowoodstables (Nov 9, 2005)

> and the judges did not pull me into the center as they are supposed to


I've never seen a judge pull someone in because the harness was on wrong or slipped. I have seen them do that for an unruly horse or a dangerous horse.

This is why I always stress that you should have a rail person! There are time outs allowed at the higher level shows. This is there so you can make an adjustment or fix a broken piece. The rail person can tell you to pull in to adjust your harness. I agree you should only be allowed one timeout for a certain period of time and then after that you are disqualified.

As a judge, I wouldn't pull you in to tell you to fix your breastcollar. I'm not there to judge how the harness fits..just the overall picture.

As for bits..I have some fairly wild ones that I have collected over the years (some collect stamps I collect bits



) that I would hate to see the horse they were used in. On the other hand, appearances are deceiving! I had an ASB that hated any type of curb until I found a polo bit. By the looks of it, you'd think I could have ripped his lips off..but it really was incredibly mild and he loved it. I even sold the bit with him because I knew he'd never ever wear anything else.

Here is a picture of it..the wide mouthpiece would swivel on the tongue, putting no pressure on the bars/tongue. With a latex (rubber) curb chain the pressure was actually distributed to his poll...I know I know, it worked and he was sooo lite and this bit looked more dangerous than it really was. I guess if you look at polo ponies ripping around and riders maybe inclined to accidently haul on the mouth, this bit alleviated alot of potential damaga IMHO.






I use plain mullen or jointed half cheek bits



That is the difference in snaffles in my little mind. O ring =riding bit. Half cheek=driving. Have used LOTS of copper mouths or sweet iron as the horses seem to like the taste. Twists? Have used for a purpose only. And never on a horse that has a beginner driver.

Kim


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Nov 9, 2005)

I find as a very general statement... most mini people -not the ones on this thread- dont really know much about bits at all and think a 6 dollar bit is more then fine- I am just starting to ground drive a couple of our horses and was amazed at the true lack of choices that are readily available and the knowledge of many on the different bits that there are.

Granted I dont know alot about driving or driving bits either however I do have knowledge of regular bits.

I lost out on a auction of a copper eggbutt which is what I am looking for however I dont want a half cheek although I might have to give in a bit on that one to get a copper bit.

as for the twists I dont know many not in minis or driving? but arent there many variations of a twist from mild to harsh as there are in riding bits or is that not an option in mini or driving bits?


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## willowoodstables (Nov 9, 2005)

Lisa..

I can buy any bit known to mankind for a horse or pony (4 3/4 and up) and for minis I tear my hair out. While at Nationals, it was a standing joke on when Kim went shopping at any tack establishment I bought EVERY bit I could get my hands on LOL..to the tune of about $300.00!!!!

Cash Lovell makes awesome driving bits, and I'm sure if the demand warrants it they would create smaller bits. As a last resort, I am very fortunate to have a master welder who lives near me and I take the horse size version of what I want to him and he "creates" or downsizes for me..at a cost of course!!

Drives me crazy! And yes Lisa..a 6$ bit may not FIT, but it has the word mini on it and it gets bought..some of the bits I have seen have big fat mouth pieces that I am sure leave no room in the mouth!

Maybe I should start making my own bits and selling them!!

Kim


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## Mnmini (Nov 9, 2005)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> I find as a very general statement... most mini people -not the ones on this thread- dont really know much about bits at all and think a 6 dollar bit is more then fine- I am just starting to ground drive a couple of our horses and was amazed at the true lack of choices that are readily available and the knowledge of many on the different bits that there are.Granted I dont know alot about driving or driving bits either however I do have knowledge of regular bits.
> 
> I lost out on a auction of a copper eggbutt which is what I am looking for however I dont want a half cheek although I might have to give in a bit on that one to get a copper bit.
> 
> ...



I was wondering the same thing. It is not unusual at all to put a perfectly well behaved horse in a slow twist periodically when schooling under saddle. We keep 3 standard snaffles for everyday schooling. A sweet iron smooth snaffle, sweet iron slow twist (custom made by McCleland's in FL), and a regular (not tiny) twisted copper. The latter has to be replaced fairly regularly as the horses seem to chew on this one more so than the others, plus it is a very soft metal, resulting in sharp flat spots. No damage occurs, but it's always a good idea to rotate through bits. If you only use one of two, you end up only using a couple of pressure points, but when you rotate through several bits, you refine new pressure points, keeps things interesting for them as well. I'm always aware of what I'm sticking in them, and certainly refine HOW I ask, depending on what bit I'm using that day. Would i use them with an overcheck connected directly to the bit? Heck no..I generally do not school with a check. I've always really liked adding the Myler #40 mouthpiece to the rotation, another good choice.

I've got a standard smooth half cheek bit with the S stamped on it too, but think it is just to reflect the material (stainles). Bought it off e-bay. Is pinchless, and somewhat heavy. I've seen them in a catalog too, but forget where.


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