# More Harness Questions



## Jenny (Jan 15, 2014)

Okay, I'm getting closer on deciding on the harness I want to buy, but not completely. Anyways, I just thought I'd ask a few questions now, even though it will still be a while before I order one. I've realized now that I might want to do a little showing in the future as it looks like a blast. I would most likely be doing more ADS events rather than breed shows (I'm hoping to do CDE's eventually as my driving coach specializes in that and there's an annual show only an hour away). So, I would rather buy as if I were going to show in the future, rather than find out later that what I've purchased isn't suitable. So, here go the questions.

1. Brass or chrome hardware? I've attached a picture of Breaker to show his colour.

2. French tugs or wrap straps?

Also, has anyone had any experience with the Graber EZ Entry Carts? I LOVE the look of them compared to other EE Carts. I probably won't be needing a cart until next year because I want to take my time and train him correctly, but I have some questions regarding carts as well.

1. For CDE and driving altogether, are wood wheels better than wire spoked wheels? Can you enter CDE shows with wire wheels?

2. If I get wire wheels, would this mean it would be a better choice to get chrome hardware on the harness so it matches?

Thank you for tolerating all of my newbie questions!


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## Al B (Jan 15, 2014)

*IMHO*

1. Brass or chrome hardware? I've attached a picture of Breaker to show his colour. Chrome

2. French tugs or wrap straps? Wrap straps

Also, has anyone had any experience with the Graber EZ Entry Carts? I LOVE the look of them compared to other EE Carts. I probably won't be needing a cart until next year because I want to take my time and train him correctly, but I have some questions regarding carts as well.

1. For CDE and driving altogether, are wood wheels better than wire spoked wheels? Can you enter CDE shows with wire wheels?  Wire wheels are allowed at training level if approved by the show manager. They are not safe. I have seen them fold. Wood is not real good for a CDE since the terrain is often wet and muddy. If you are going to do CDE seriously get a CDE cart with steel wheels.

2. If I get wire wheels, would this mean it would be a better choice to get chrome hardware on the harness so it matches?


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jan 15, 2014)

I agree with Al B, my answers would be the same. Chrome hardware will look very nice with your silver bay (?) and brass requires polishing while chrome only needs wiping. Don't know anything about the Graber carts so can't give you any useful input there and the steel wheels will be fine with either harness metal as would the wire wheels. Any other metal on the cart should be black or match the harness for a pretty turn out. It is very difficult to find a cart that does it all perfectly. Wooden wheels look nicer with the brass on the harness but tend to be heavier and so the wire wheels are popular for the show ring unless you are doing ADS type shows where a traditional turn out will score more points in the ring. They will not however stand up to hard driving in anything other than a groomed ring. The steel wheels will also be heavier but if you plan to do any amount of driving in CDEs or cross country they will be less likely to fail. You need to decide what you want to do and then weigh the pros and cons of each type of wheel.


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## shorthorsemom (Jan 16, 2014)

CDE needs steel wheels in my opinion. You don't want to go around a turn and peel off a tire, or hit a rock and have your spoke wheel fold and warp and cleaning mud out of all those little spokes can be a pain. Wood wheels look gorgeous, but my experience with a cart I used to have was that my wood wheels sunk into the ground deeply when ground was wet and muddy and that cart was too heavy for my boy. I had a meadowbrook and it was hard for my guy to pull over any ground that wasn't hard and perfect.

My cart has steel wheels and a wider tread that skips over the ground and doesn't sink in badly. I love that cart when I have time to drive. 
I have two harnesses .. one chrome and one brass. The brass always looks like it needs polishing and gets spotty. The chrome always looks brand new even years later, even when I let it sit I can pull it out of the bag and it looks brand new and barely needs a wipe.




Here is a photo of my harness, you can click on it to expand. somebody tell me if these are english tugs. They do not have wrap straps that go around the shaft, but instead buckle down to the girth by a strap that comes out of the bottom of the tug. I like this. Ideally I would like to have had closed shaft loops and a sliding back band on my saddle, but this type of tug allows some flex and the cart is not rigid tied to your harness. My shafts have tug stops that you can see in the photo. The only wraps I have go to the britching and then my breast collar connects and does its job, so between the three connections to the cart I find a very secure fit that allows flexibility on turns and hills. Hope this helps, this is only my opinion, everybody has a different style they like. I think the quick release tugs are cool too in the event of an accident, never knew those existed, thought I would mention.

this is the type of wheel I like on a cart. I shopped forever. Bought two carts that didn't work and finally paid the big bucks and bought this cart.


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## Marsha Cassada (Jan 16, 2014)

I've used my wire wheels regularly for over 10 years. I can see where they would fail in CDE competition, but they are perfectly fine for every day use. Steel wheels are heavier and have a harder ride. However, one does not need to worry about flats. It's a trade off.

I had my wire wheels powder coated black and they look very nice with my cart and harness.

The only time I have seen a wire wheel flattened was when an enraged big horse came down on the wooden Jerald runabout with all his maniacal power. The wheel flattened like a taco and the steel frame of the seat actually bent. Incredibly, the wooden slat did not break. That is a lot of abuse to destroy a wire wheel. But, I think the metal carts have a smaller hub than the wooden carts, so that may affect how they hold up to heavy trail use.

I do not have a Graber, but people I know that do like them very well.

Good luck deciding!


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## shorthorsemom (Jan 16, 2014)

Agree with Marsha for me for every day use I would actually love to have a wire wheel no flat tire cart to run around in and often think of selling my aerocrown to somebody that will use it for what it was designed for. My cart is really too much money for what I do with it.. we have a lot of field stubble here on the farm which is why I enjoy the steel. Those wheels on my cart are not rough and I can go over waffle grid from tractor tires, the cart is waaayyyyy too much money for the amount of driving I have time for. Trade offs... everybody has a different opinion but that is because our horses are different and our riding turf is different and our individual shapes and sizes and flexibility are different. My meadowbrook was cute as the dickens but getting in and out for me was tough. My cart has a one second mount time and I appreciate that..

I do remember watching a youtube video of a forum member running through a water hazard in a CDE and her wire cart wheels were making some noise in the gravel. She explained on the forum that she has peeled a tire off during competition and was running her marathon on the rim. It didn't seem to slow her down though and that might have been the same type of cart Marsha uses. That video is what inspired some of my comment on spoke wheels above...cheers.


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## horsenarounnd (Jan 16, 2014)

In our show experience, showing ADS shows in the Midwest US, brass will always place over chrome. Yes, I know it really doesn't make sense snd shouldn't matter, but we've gone both ways and the brass always placed higher, even with a b/w pinto with a black cart and blue striping. (the turnout in our picture) Now, if you've got a chrome trimmed cart with chrome wheels, you're in a fix, I know. I've gone to setting my cart up so I can change the trim from chrome ot brass with only a little effort, and when we show in a breed show, with chrome wire spoke wheels, the cart has chrome trim, and in an ADS show the cart has wood wheels and brass trim. Go figure I'm sure there are differing opinions, but that's what we've found over many years of showing in ADS shows.

As to cart and wheels, I recommend the Fox Lane cart as a very good all around. cart. They are very well built, EZ entry and extremely adjustable to fit horse and driver and balance. They come with steel spoke wheels with hard rubber tires and are suitable for any shows. (ADS will not allow wire wheels with pneumatic tires and CDEs will allow them only in entry level classes) The Fox Lane is also a very comfortable cart to drive and is well worth the 1650.00 price tag. Check them out.

For the harness, I'd go with wrap straps jusat because they are much more secure. Alittle more effort to harness, but well worth the effort in my opinion.

Good Luck!


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## izmepeggy (Jan 18, 2014)

I have a Graber EE cart and I LOVE IT..Well made and will last longer than me..lol..The shafts are nice and wide at the back for turning.Mine is an older Graber than I bought off craigslist,then found out I knew the Lady..Small world..hehehe..The only thing that I want to change are, I have to have the tugs all the way up..I replaced the wheels so that may be my problem.When I bought it it had what looked to me like wheelborrow wheels..But with the original wheels it may not have been a problem..But,they are worth EVERY penny..


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## Jenny (Jan 20, 2014)

Thanks everyone!

Sorry it took so long for me to respond, I've been crazy busy with exams. I have pretty much decided on the harness, just have to get approval from my driving coach in the spring. I'm planning on getting everything from a local miniature tack store, Carriage House Miniature Horse Tack and Harness. Louellen was great in answering all my questions and helping me pick out what would work best. The harness I'm hoping to purchase is the Carriage Harness. It looks like a beautiful harness and I have a thing for rounded blinders, not a fan of the box-y square ones. The cart that the horse in the first two pictures is hitched to is actually the one I am looking at, the Graber Classic EZ Entry. It comes with wire wheels, but I can order wood or steel wheels later on if I go into CDE. I'll talk to my coach eventually, though, to ask what she thinks would be best. It will be a long while before I would enter a CDE competition (or even hook him to a cart) as I wouldn't dream of entering a really green horse. I am actually thinking now, that the brass would look best on him as I really like the traditional look and I think it would compliment his chestnut colour really nicely. I know it's a lot of work, but I have time and it seems as though it would be worth it. As far as the wrap straps or french tugs, I'm still a little confused on which to get, but I'll ask the coach. For a bit, I'm planning on getting a copper mouth french link snaffle. I cant wait till spring! This snow needs to melt faster!





Thanks again!


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## shorthorsemom (Jan 21, 2014)

too bad they don't have russett color harness. If you are going with brass, russett looks so pretty on a chestnut horse. I wanted russet with brass but decided on black and chrome but I still drool over russett and brass harness. nice choices. Enjoy.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jan 21, 2014)

just a thought on your bit. I have found that with young horse they tend to chomp on the bit in the beginning and that causes burrs on bits with copper mouths. You might want to see if you can find one with just the link in copper.


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## jeanniecogan (Feb 1, 2014)

it looks like you will have fun this spring too. i also have a black w/ chrome harness and i love it, but i also drool over the russet harness, im always looking for an excuse to buy one.

about tires, i have always had wire wheels, they seem to be strong enough for most things i do. but when i trail drive i worry about flats. haven't had one yet. but it would be a problem. so i bought the solid inner tubes last fall, im having a problem getting anyone to put them in though, guess i will have to see a bike store. also, my cart is a Lignite and it came with tires that are flat on the bottom, as opposed to them round bottom. they glide over the mud and sand. don't know where to get them, but they are great. good luck with your decision and make some of them yourself, the trainer doesn't have to live with them.


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## Katie Iceton (Feb 1, 2014)

Hi Jenny! I was very close to buying Breaker a year or two ago! I really liked him but he wasn't a pinto



Where are you in BC? I am in Armstrong...who is your coach? I don't know if you have already bought your harness but I have a couple of suggestions...just food for thought. I compete with a pair and I use a synthetic harness Comfy Fit is the brand from Equi-Market Tack in AB....amazing quality, without the hours of cleaning a leather harness takes, and is as refined and very durable harness. I love mine and it is amazing for CDE. As for carts...I highly recommend Bellcrown...they have great suspension, and are great for CDE.

Feel free to PM me for more info





Cheers!

Katie


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## Jenny (Feb 1, 2014)

Hi Katie! Wow, that's so funny that you almost bought Breaker! He had a few other people interested in him when I bought him, but I couldn't take him right away, so I put a down payment on him otherwise I would have lost him. I'm very happy I did.



Sometimes I look at him and I can just picture him in a cart and I think he was built for it. I'm near 100 Mile House, so not too far from you. My coach is Elisa Marocchi. I actually did buy a harness recently. It's used but in excellent condition. I bought it from a woman who knows Elisa and I'm very happy with it. I'm hoping to try a CDE event or two in the future, but I'll see what I like when I start driving. I'm going to start learning to drive with Elisa's lesson horses (big horses), so I will be able to try a bunch of different stuff with my weekly lessons. Thanks for the suggestions on the harness/cart!

Jeannie, thank you for the information on the tires! I'll keep your suggestions in mind when the time comes to purchase a cart.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Feb 2, 2014)

Wow! You have gotten an excellent coach. I've taken clinics with Elisa and she is wonderful. She will get you started right, no question, she is great with beginners right on up to the experienced driver who wants to tweak their skills. Lucky you, I would love to be close enough to get ongoing lessons with her.


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## horsenarounnd (Feb 2, 2014)

For a nice russet harness, look at Robinson Harness. They are a small mom and pop harness shop in Kansas and off er russet hareness for the same price as black. Choice of chrome or brass and great price. I've had one of their harnesses and the price seems to good to be true, but IMO a good harness at the price.


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## Jenny (Feb 2, 2014)

Thanks Reignmaker, I've heard from so many people that she is a great coach. I feel so lucky that she's only half an hour away from me!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 2, 2014)

Hey guys. Long time no see. Quick answers...Graber good, Carriage House harness good, brass looks awesome but is a nightmare to maintain (been there, done that



), your harness doesn't need to match your wire spoke wheels just as it's okay to have a silver bit on a brass harness, russet harness is NOT okay unless you have the appropriate cart for it with brown painted metal and brown leather appointments, and yes it's best to at least have the option to switch to wooden or steel wheels as you'll be required to for most CDE events.



> ...we have a lot of field stubble here on the farm which is why I enjoy the steel. Those wheels on my cart are not rough and I can go over waffle grid from tractor tires, the cart is waaayyyyy too much money for the amount of driving I have time for. Trade offs... everybody has a different opinion but that is because our horses are different and our riding turf is different and our individual shapes and sizes and flexibility are different.


Very true that different people like different things because they have different needs. However it isn't your wheels that make that ride smooth, it's the torsion axles they attach to on an Aerocrown. Steel or wooden wheels are a miserable ride when attached directly to a cart with only coil spring suspension!



> I do remember watching a youtube video of a forum member running through a water hazard in a CDE and her wire cart wheels were making some noise in the gravel. She explained on the forum that she has peeled a tire off during competition and was running her marathon on the rim. It didn't seem to slow her down though and that might have been the same type of cart Marsha uses. That video is what inspired some of my comment on spoke wheels above...cheers.


I'm afraid you're mis-recalling that incident a bit, Shorthorsemom.



That was me and I was in my 37lb. Hyperbike with its moto-cross style rigid plastic wheels, not a wire-wheeled cart. I would have had no choice but to stop if I'd been on a metal rim as it would have been irreparably chewed up within the first few feet of losing the pneumatic tire. I was running Prelim so we had to use non-wire-spoked wheels with solid rubber rims; my rubber rim just happened to separate and roll off which thankfully is not an elimination.

The OP asked for further clarification on the wrap straps/French tugs thing. The best option for CDE vehicles that are made to balance correctly is open tugs, which are what Shorthorsemom described earlier. They're an open tug loop that has a billet attached to the bottom which you buckle in to the overgirth and they allow the shaft to float freely within the loop for a smooth ride. Unfortunately many EE carts do not balance correctly in which case it's best to use wrap straps. French tugs look superficially like open tugs but the difference is the billet underneath is actually a continuation of the tug loop itself so when you tighten it down, it constricts the tug loop around the shaft to hold it rigidly in place. This is useful in some circumstances but very uncomfortable for the horse if going cross country as every little jolt and bump is transmitted up the shafts and directly to the saddle and the horse's back. Ouch! At least with wrap straps you can adjust the tension so things swing a bit more freely while still preventing the shafts from bumping around wildly.

Leia


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## Jenny (Mar 2, 2014)

Thank you Leia!

I actually bought a beautiful used harness with brass and wrap straps. My driving coach is coming over today to do a harness fitting lesson today with Breaker and I! I haven't purchased a cart yet, but it will be a while before I need one. Thank you for all your insight and advice, I'll keep all of it in mind for the future.


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## shorthorsemom (Mar 3, 2014)

YEAH LEIA...there you are... I was hoping you would come out of hiding. I have so totally missed you here and your comments and knowledge!!!

Thanks ever so much for clarification. I couldn't find that video to review again to get it right, now I remember the hyperbike video of you in that cde because at the time I wanted to get a hyperbike and was watching everything I could get my hands on. I secretly hoped if I mentioned that video you might step in and comment , but I did goof big time on the wheel comment, that was not on purpose, just an old lady brain lapse.

I am winter bored and beat up and getting some enjoyment out of the forum. I always end up with more questions than answers but I do try to help. We need more experienced folks like yourself to come back out of hiding and guide the newbie drivers with all the different experience levels and styles you folks who have been there and done that can give us.

You should be a driving coach and a writer. I admit to looking on fb for you the other day and even looking over at your older cde driving forum because I have missed your postings.

I am such a nerd and say wheels when I also mean to include how they attach to my cart too, yep you are right, suspension, the wheels don't dig in like my other cart did. I remember you patiently answering soooooo many questions I posted when I was trying to figure out which cart and harness to get..

I wish you didn't live all the way across the country, I would have you taking my aerocrown out for a spin and give it some professional exercise, it is wasting here and I have even tried to sell it a couple of times but don't want to sell my dream cart for lack of driving knowing I will never have the money again to buy another I haven't driven in forever and this winter is so awful I can't even go for a walk with my dogs, the footing is just horrible. I spent forever trying to find the perfect cart and harness and now everything just sits there and I feel so guilty not being able to do anything.

So great to have you back. Please don't go away again.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Mar 3, 2014)

I whole heartedly agree with shorthorsemom!!!! So good to hear from you again, we (_* I*_ ) have missed your input here.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 4, 2014)

You guys are so sweet and believe me, I miss you too. Unfortunately things change and through circumstances outside of my control I no longer drive or have much time to participate here. Please feel free to look me up on Facebook though as I continue to be active there, sharing the new and unharnessed adventures of Kody the Californian. I will pop in when I can but the forum already ate this reply three times so I don't think it's meant to be!

Hugs,

Leia


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## shorthorsemom (Mar 8, 2014)

for Leia...

sigh...

I no longer drive either but still miss your postings. Thanks for the postings to give this forum member a little bright light. Its been a rough year here for us here for so many reasons and at one point I got so low I put my driving stuff up for sale and gave up my heart horse (in my avatar) back to his other mommy. He came back a few weeks ago and for that I am so happy that he is home. His birthday was yesterday, he is 14, here is his fuzzy birthday photo.




Thanks for stepping back in, if only for a moment. I really appreciated it.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 12, 2014)

Happy birthday, heart-pony. He's the same age as Kody. It's been a very dark year for many of us and I am sincerely hoping this one is much better. Hugs to you!

Leia


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