# Photos of my "almost dwarf filly"



## nootka (Oct 29, 2007)

This filly was born here, by a mare I purchased with a free breeding. I chose a taller stallion with longer legs. The mare was 31.50" and a bit longer-backed, with a little bit straight stifles for my taste. she had a slight underbite that resolved itself with no dentistry as the mare matured between being 4 and 5. This filly was born with a perfect bite, though one thing that stood out right away was that she thought she was a person. If I was in the stall, she would NOT bond with her dam. She stood for the first time only to come and get into my lap. Before she was out of her mother, she came to me.

IF we were outside, Goldie would be out of the pasture in no time to come to us (she was immune to electric fencing, too, and quite the little escape artist, but only if there were people as the goal). She "smiled" at us often, and learned tricks with great ease.

As she approached weaning age, we began to notice that her bite went off. I turned down $4000 for this filly (she was palomino in addition to being appaloosa bred).

For educational purposes, here is what I began to see/noted about this filly that brought me to the conclusion that she was an "almost" or "minimal" dwarf (I have sold her, but her owner gave me permission to use her photos that I took to educate people as to what dwarfism can look like) (feel free to add your own examples or use these for your own observations/make comments/ask questions):







Four months of age. Notice the very rounded belly along with the overly mature look as well as the extremely heavy build for her age. compare to others of the same age ("refined" or not).






Same age (note the very prominent, high dome)






Yearling (plus five months) Notice the placement of her nostrils, high and closer together. Also you can almost see the underbite even from this angle w/her mouth closed.

Her dome is visible a little if you look up by her ears. Also, if you are able, you can almost make out the tooth bumps below her eyes. They are uneven and this is somewhat due to the crowding caused by the way her skull is made. The equine dentist said it was congenital, not a dental management issue, and she would pass it on. Her wolf teeth were pulled out from right behind her two front incisors to give you an idea of the problem she had with her jaw/skull.






Two years old, competing in color class (she could not compete in halter due to her severe underbite).

I don't think you can see it here, because we had a good farrier, but she had a tendency to clubbed hooves, very boxy and upright.






At a Halloween party at our feed store and winning first prize in the costume class, I might add (she learned this trick within a few minutes, her people smarts were unparalleled.

Notice that, even at two years of age, her dome has not gone away.

Her nostrils are still visibly placed oddly and combined with her relatively small stature compared to her parents' sizes (sire 32"+, dam 31.50" this filly matured at 30") along with her large bone for her height (my 33.25" gelding has smaller bone than she does), if not the underbite (which pretty much seals it for me alone, anyway), this is a dwarf filly. We loved her very much, but have so little room here, we needed it for breeding horses also I had two very small sons which didn't allow us enough time to be with Goldie. We found the perfect home for her, though.

Liz M.


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## anyssapark (Oct 29, 2007)

This is really interesting. Thanks for posting. She looks so sweet


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## maplegum (Oct 30, 2007)

I guess I have lots to learn. She looks 'normal' to me.



I'm obviously missing something.

Guess I had better go and take a better look at my own horse now after all of this dwarf talk.

Thanks for sharing her story, I think she's a lovely little lady.


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## outlawridge (Oct 30, 2007)

Liz, what a living doll Goldie is! Thank you for posting her photos and history for us. Very minimal, or "near dwarf" is a good description of her. Her head is the main indicator for me. I'm accepting your invitation to post other dwarf photos within your thread for educational purposes as well. 

Also, can't remember who asked for nostril placement photos on the other thread?? Maybe these photos will help? and also help people to see some of the dwarf traits or characteristics we have been discussing by viewing our "full blown" dwarfs, and therefore recognizing or distinguishing these traits in regular minis. Even though it made this post very long, I have tried to give you different stages of growth and angles for educational purposes.

The following pix are of our three, adopted, brachycephalic dwarf girls. All of these girls have underbites and various other abnormalities, some more severe than others. The last dwarf is Little Joey, born to a bred mare I had purchased. He is an achondroplasia dwarf.

First up is our sweet Dolly who we adopted July 2006. The first photo is at three weeks (permission to post granted last year) before we adopted her. 






Here she is a few weeks later, and then fall, at just under 4 months old. Janell's Magic Shoes fully corrected three of her legs. One very odd thing about Dolly, her coat is constantly changing and until a month ago, has been different lengths.











Here is Dolly at 10.5 months.






Dolly at 13 months, 25.5" tall.






Here is my beloved Bayleigh, a severe brachycephalic dwarf, adopted January, 2007 at 2 1/2 years old. Her back legs could not be corrected as her joints have already fused. However, she appreciated the aggressive trimming we did, and we keep her hooves as short as possible. She has a severe underbite. I included a photo with me so that you can get an idea of just how tiny she is at 21.5". These photos start with the day we brought her home. 






This bath photo really shows you her dome and nostrils, along with just how short her face is and small muzzle.











Here is sweet Lily, adopted April, 2007. She is also a brachycephalic dwarf. These pix are from one to three months old. 






This one is a good example of dome (bulge) forehead, wide set eyes, short face, small muzzle, and nostril placement.











Last is spunky Little Joey, an achondroplasia dwarf. This type of dwarf usually has a perfect bite and nice head but very short legs. This gives them the look of a large, long body. The growth plates of the leg close, so the legs are very short and sometimes crooked. These photos start when Joey was one month old. Notice how different he looks from one month old Lily. He had a normal baby dome which has since flattened out. His bite has always been perfect. I apologize but most of Joey's pix are in print form so I have no close up of his face to show you. Joey is now 6 years old.






If you look closely, you can see that his actual back is not long, however these type of dwarfs have the appearance of being long, and some actually are.

At 5 1/2 years old.






Compare Joey's much more normal nostril placement to the three girls above.






If you made this far I thank you, and I hope that these examples of dwarfs are helpful to you in recognizing traits in other horses.


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## nootka (Oct 30, 2007)

maplegum, this is the point, she looked normal for the most part, aside from the points I brought up:

The underbite (which was enough for me to avoid breeding her, EVER),

The heavy bones for her height,

the dome in her head and general conformation ofher head including the high nostrils.

Tendency to very clubbed hooves/upright pasterns

(if you look at her hind leg angle, you will see that it is overly straight, again, enough of a fault for me to avoid using her for breeding).

All of the above things add up to me suspecting that she was a very minimal dwarf (other than the bite, it was a full tooth off. In the photo with my son, you can see the chin, the way she holds it is characteristic of horses with an underbite), or if bred, stood a good chance of having one that was more severely afflicted.

Either way, why would I want to run that risk? She is far from normal, IMO.

Liz


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## Jill (Oct 30, 2007)

Once this thread is done, could it be saved to the "Best Of" forum?

I keep looking at her pictures, and I do see the things you point out, mostly the domed head, but on my own, none of these would have (or do) say dwarf to me. I want to be able to refer back to this thread and the pictures as I learn more.

(You have a PM)


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## kaykay (Oct 30, 2007)

Here is Nell a minimal expression dwarf we took in cmhr. we suspected she was (see leg deformity) but it wasnt until they tried to fix her leg we knew for sure she was as when they tried to put her under her throat opening was way too small to put the tube down. (another dwarf trait)











Pippy who I feel sure is a minimal expression dwarf. Long back, domed head, eyes too far apart, club hooved, post legged


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## miniwhinny (Oct 30, 2007)

Well Liz, I've certainly learned some things. I would never have labled your filly as a minimal dwarf. In fact looking at her I wonder how many people are breeding minimals and not knowing it. Sure hope more people post so we get a better idea.

Q...are the nostrils always "on top" in a minimal?


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## Marty (Oct 30, 2007)

Liz, first thank you for this information.

You are really teaching us, (me) about some things I never would have thought about.

But I have to tell you that I am freaking out here.

I am seeing tons of horses that look like this on people's websites every day and I just chalk them up to having a wide forehead. Who knew? I never thought of looking at the nostrils before., I would also just write that off as an undesirable head for my taste.

But is there any chance you are wrong?

Could we all be jumping to conclusions here maybe and just have some horses that didn't come out of the oven as nicely as had hoped and have conformation defects without screaming dwarf?

I'm just wondering about that.

What do you think Liz?

Anyone?


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## Relic (Oct 30, 2007)




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## Charlotte (Oct 30, 2007)

> But is there any chance you are wrong?
> Could we all be jumping to conclusions here maybe and just have some horses that didn't come out of the oven as nicely as had hoped and have conformation defects without screaming dwarf?


Good call Marty. Just because a horse has conformation which I personally don't care for doesn't mean it has a genetic abnormality.

There is SO MUCH in play in the formation of offspring of an organism besides genetics....Thalidomide babies, 5 legged frogs, 2 headed cows, etc etc. It is unfortunate that so much mis-information/personal opinion is being presented as fact.

Charlotte


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## Marty (Oct 30, 2007)

What outlaw ridge is sharring with us, those are dwarfs.

But what Relic has........I really doubt it

I think it is just a case here of scrutinizing or overly scrutinizing your conformation in trying to get that "perfect" horse and that perfect new modern mini that every one loves to look at in the show ring.

I have a "full bodied" mare. She also has a wide forhead. That does not make her a dwarf at all. She's simply the "old style" miniature. There are millions around, probably everyone has one or has had one in their barns. Does not make them dwarfy, or does it?

I think a lot of this is the old style being bred into the new style modern mini and some are throw backs and just not quite making it there yet.

If you are trying to breed out the old style short pugdy ones, this is going to take a lot more years.

Keep posting more information.

This is a good thread.


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## Jill (Oct 30, 2007)

You know, and please, not interested in any one ripping this horse appart... I love him, showed him very successfully as a stallion, sired a very nice horse I also showed successfully but both are now geldings as I got what I feel are better stallions. Anyway, I cannot look at Liz' filly and not think she looks a heck of a lot like my own Derby... I don't see the filly (or Derby) as perfect, but really, I do not personally see dwarf characteristics... Both Derby and his son have perfect bites, too, but the only thing in Liz' that would make me think dwarf is the bite (and possibly the head, but not an extreme case). Here is a link to Derby's webpage:

*[SIZE=12pt]Triple H Derby Day Miracle[/SIZE]*

2000 31” AMHR Light Palomino Gelding – My First Every Show Horse

Shown as a stallion to multiple Grands / National Top Five Performance / Push Button Driving Horse


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 30, 2007)

You know I think the bottom line here is that some are thinking characteristics = dwarf and that is not always the case. Some say it takes 5 of these things to make a dwarf others say 3 some say 1 or 2 is enough for me.

It is and always will be subjective no different then conformation, show quality and breeding quality.


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## outlawridge (Oct 30, 2007)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> You know I think the bottom line here is that some are thinking characteristics = dwarf and that is not always the case. Some say it takes 5 of these things to make a dwarf others say 3 some say 1 or 2 is enough for me.
> 
> It is and always will be subjective no different then conformation, show quality and breeding quality.



My point exactly. 

And Relic, I don't see dwarfy in your pretty palomino's head at all. Would like to see a profile of him, but from these photos, he looks very nice, and his nostril placement is right where it should be IMO.

Jill, I really don't see the similarity between Derby and Goldie. His forehead is not flat but it doesn't look bulgy or dome like to me. IMHO, I don't see anything dwarfy about him.


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## Relic (Oct 30, 2007)

Great in my eye l see the same face as the black...ummmh the only thing he is not or ever has been a palomino. Would have been nice though


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## nootka (Oct 30, 2007)

Yes, I surely could be wrong. To me, though, two things (depending on what they are) really decide it for me, the most important being proportion issues along with things like a very deformed leg/legs or an underbite (not sure why dwarfs rarely have overbites it seems, they are more likely to have underbites).

All the things together just give me the feeling that she was a dwarf (the sire was most certainly not, the dam was probably the same as her daughter although her underbite resolved without dental intervention).

I am just trying to illustrate my observations and how I feel about this particular horse.

I am not screaming dwarf at every horse that has a similar deformity or conformation issue.

I do realize there are environmental issues at play, but they should not be used as excuses to breed inferior horses for anything other than the pursuit of the best conformation.

The bottom line is that it is up to all of us.

Freaking out will not help anything.

If you have a horse that has a dwarfy looking head, then look around. Is there anything else about them that would cause you to think they might be hiding or carrying a dwarf gene?

If they are mostly fine all the way around, then perhaps you will be just fine finding a mate that has not dwarf characteristics whatsoever, but at least you have looked carefully and understand the risks.

If people had more confidence, they could possibly post photos of sires and dams of true dwarfs, and we could all see the things we really need to see.

I'm sorry but I feel that looking at the dwarfs themselves, minimal, possibles and actual, severely afflicted ones can only teach us so much.

We do need to see what the parents looked like.

Sometimes you cannot see it at all and the scary thing is that there is that unkown.

People want to throw blame without scientific evidence, and in truth, it may be far more random than we want to admit or realize. I for one, would rather believe that I am right and that I can see the traits in the parents before I breed them to create a little one that could both die in foaling and take its dam with it, or live a life of relative misery needing a lot of painful intervention (or just be happy hanging out in a field looking funny, there's no real shame in that, just htat I don't want to deliberately make another one), than to think that a pair of horses with no indicators would throw out this dwarf monster foal.

I don't for one second believe it totally impossible and I sweat this every single foaling season. When my little red colt was stuck this year at his hips, I kept wondering if I was up against some terrible deformity, but apparently not, it was something about the way he was positioned.

Anyway, please dont' take my word or my opinions as any kind of final answer or "gospel" but try to see what I'm pointing out.

If you want to get hysterical about it, that's not going to help anything.

Sure, like Jill, you may see similarities, and I DO see some. Perhaps if Goldie didnt' have the dwarf gene, she would have looked like Derby, and while neither horse is ideal even aside from the dwarfism on HER part, she may have been ok for breeding.

The problem is, she had too many indicators for me to ignore the fact that she might not be a dwarf. I would not have bred her for anything based alone on the fact that she had a full-tooth underbite, but her upright, clubbed hooves, her straight hind stifle/leg angles and her heavy bones for her height as well as overall very "poor-average" conformation just makes sense not to chance it.

I may very well be wrong. All I can do is say that I saw mares that looked like her at maturity nursing full-blown dwarf foals at more than one farm. The sire was no more dwarfy looking than my filly, though they may have had some similar traits.

I wish I could go back and start over and take photos and make notes to share with all of you, but then again, none of those horses belonged to me.

Just please don't ever close your minds, keep learning and make the best choices. Your mare only gets ONE chance per year to have a foal. I know none of you wants that foal to be a dwarf.

Liz


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## susanne (Oct 30, 2007)

Liz,

In response to this thread and your comments on all of the other related threads, I am in awe of your honest, non-judgmental, educational approach to this subject.

I also commend those who have had the courage to ask about their own beloved horses....you are true horsepeople and conscientious breeders.

Many have gotten hot and bothered over what is or is not a dwarf, but even if you do not want to call it such, the plain truth is that there are many horses who should not reproduce. There are so many miniature horses in need of good homes that, to me, it is unconscionable to breed a horse with serious issues or one that you think may possibly be a carrier.

Dwarfs were used for breeding in the early days of breeding for tiny at all costs. Today the breed has improved to the point of having tinies who are beautifully proportioned, true miniature horses, so there is no need to intentionally breed dwarf or otherwise undesirable traits. Yet so many people, including many on this forum, feel that it is their inalienable right to breed cute little mini babies...just because. Sorry, but the world is NOT crying out for more minis, especially those condemned to a life of pain and discomfort.

In other words, my opinion is: if you have the slightest doubt, don't breed.


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## miniwhinny (Oct 30, 2007)

Okay, I read this post this morning and have spent all day doing jobs and playing horsey



so I've only just now come back online to read updates. Looking at your mare again I just don't see dwarf. I've tried. I don't see awesome conformation and like you said her bite would stop me from breeding but if her dams bite was off also at one point then perhaps it's inherited from her.

To me dwarf, even minimal...which is STILL dwarf...is one whose "bodily proportions are abnormal". I've yet to see a mini without a domed head...their little brains have to fit in somewhere



. Mini's can have bad bites but a lot of that is to do with cramming a full set of teeth into a small head. To me dwarfs ARE the second set of pictures posted. That's a dwarf. Because there are different types of dwarfism (like in people) some dwarfs look more normal in different areas...what I'd call minimal because they aren't as obvious but still clearly dwarf. I have no experience with dwarfs but I do think that if a horse is a dwarf it will be obvious. I'd love for a genetic test to let us know about your mare...sure hope you didn't turn down $4000 for nothing






I think your mare is really cute.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 30, 2007)

I think what some people need to calm down and realize is that sometimes, it takes some people a LONG time to "see" things in horses. It took me a long time of education and study to really SEE conformation.

If it was EASY to see conformation there would not be as many "barn blind" people out there. That sure frustrates a lot of long-time breeder/showmen/owners out there who HAVE developed "an eye."

People who might be a little barn blind will stomp their feet when "a horse not as nice or just as nice" as their places above theirs at a show.

They will get offended when a stallion owner turns their mare away for "not being nice enough."

They are offended when some respected people tell them their horse looks "a little dwarfy."

Some people just haven't developed a good eye for type, a good eye for what a long back is, for what dwarf characteristics are.

It's important to keep your mind open and TRY to learn, TRY to see where others are coming from.

No, not all tiny ears are dwarf characteristics. I don't think that's the point some are trying to make.

I commend those who are explaining, providing examples, and attempting to share "their eye" to those who are still developing an eye.

I'm not saying my "eye" is perfect. I've got a pretty good one for draft horses and minis, those I am very familiar with. Now that I'm into Modern Shetlands, I have to re-train my eye for their very specific conformation and movement. I enjoy developing my eye. It IS hard. I am very interested to see WHY the ponies I have aren't that great compared to ponies who ARE great. Because I always strive to improve and learn.

Just saying.

Andrea


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## outlawridge (Oct 30, 2007)

Relic said:


> ummmh the only thing he is not or ever has been a palomino. Would have been nice though


Was I looking at the wrong horse? Thought it was a blondie



sorry! OH!


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## Marty (Oct 30, 2007)

OK Liz I was with your explainations and teachings until I hit this:

I do realize there are environmental issues at play,

What does that mean?


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## runamuk (Oct 31, 2007)

I will add my colt again with a couple more pics.


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## nootka (Oct 31, 2007)

Marty, what I meant was that sometimes there could be something environmental (such as a toxin ingested by a mare during pregnancy or as the foal grows, or even an infection or possibly a disease which caused a secondary symptom of causing dwarfism) causing the dwarfism.

Personally, I think the greatest cause is genetic, but I am not discounting that something else can cause isolated cases of dwarfism.

Liz


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## tagalong (Oct 31, 2007)

> It is unfortunate that so much mis-information/personal opinion is being presented as fact.
> 
> Charlotte


But where is _anything_ being presented as fact? Everything on a message board is someone's OPINION. What I find to be unfortunate is the way some constantly assure us that the opinions and concerns of others are ridiculous or not worthy of discussion. And when it comes to this subject, I could not disagree more vehemently....

I see what Liz is talking about in her filly. The "thickness" - that can be hard to describe. The face. The overall look.



> Yet so many people, including many on this forum, feel that it is their inalienable right to breed cute little mini babies...just because. Sorry, but the world is NOT crying out for more minis, especially those condemned to a life of pain and discomfort.


Well said, *susanne*. And thus we should all discuss, evaluate, examine, and discuss some more...



> *It's important to keep your mind open and TRY to learn, TRY to see where others are coming from.*No, not all tiny ears are dwarf characteristics. I don't think that's the point some are trying to make.
> 
> I commend those who are explaining, providing examples, and attempting to share "their eye" to those who are still developing an eye.
> 
> I'm not saying my "eye" is perfect. I've got a pretty good one for draft horses and minis, those I am very familiar with. Now that I'm into Modern Shetlands, I have to re-train my eye for their very specific conformation and movement. I enjoy developing my eye. It IS hard. I am very interested to see WHY the ponies I have aren't that great compared to ponies who ARE great. Because I always strive to improve and learn.


Excellent post, *disneyhorse*... especially the part I bolded.

*Marty* - there is bad conformation... tending to the "old style"... and then there are dwarf influences. They may or may not overlap. Either way - bad individuals should not be bred. No need to freak out - but simply to look once, twice, three times.... and think.

Of course, some carriers show no signs whatsoever (this is assuming that it is a recessive gene and both parents are involved) ... but those who present obvious signs are easier to take note of.

I can look back now - and realize that many years ago, far from here, a different herd in a different place... some minis I thought of as "odd" or "cute" were undoubtedly minimally expressed dwarfs. It pains me to remember the wildly coloured one that was sold as a stallion - what did he pass on? I looked him up in the online studbook - and sure enough - he has/had sired a fair amount of foals.

He should have been gelded.

I also remember the little red filly that ran at her mama's side when I started working with minis... her excessively domed forehead and diminutive size made her a favourite of many visitors... but I always thought she looked "squashy". And her club feet were as bad as her dam's... who was of the old Ayers line and had a very early registration number. NOW I can look back and see that the little sorrel colt that was born to another daughter of the same mare was a dwarf - although his legs were "normal" for a newborn... and yet he was "wrong", somehow. Again - he was "thick" or "squashy". Within a week he collapsed... and died.

I also can look back and note that the smokey black silver dapple colt that was born to another mare - and who had scoliosis that made him seem as if he was a fancy sports car that zoomed off the road and got wrapped around a tree a bit - was also a dwarf. Except for his "dent" - he was "normal"... and ended up being a beloved pet..

I would post pictures of some of the above horses - but I can tell by the online studbook who owns them now and thus it would not be my place to post photos of them. The colt who died - I can post his pic - and will try to find it. And the silver dapple sports car - well, he ended up being mine before I found him his forever home... and as soon as I find his pictures - I will share them.

Thank you for the pictures, everyone.


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## nootka (Oct 31, 2007)

Yes, tagalong, there are SO MANY that I know for a fact are dwarfs. Their owners call them "old style" but to me, that is not old style, just another word to give PR to something that should not be hidden.

This wildly colored stallion that was of very famous Eastern lines (now out of business) produced many babies. I saw some of those, and there were admitted dwarfs in there, but noone really thought to blame and stop breeding this amazingly marked black pinto stallion whose legs were quite twisted and short, and who obviously was suffering from dwarfism.

Not all dwarfs die young, and in going through my Historical Miniatures photo files, I look them up in the studbook and see just how many babies horses like Soats Lil Peanuts had....wow...many with farm names noone would associate with dwarfs.

The filly above, for example, carries my farm name. That is because I wanted her to have an identity and be traceable no matter what.

There are ways to explain away everything, especially mares like my filly. I did not turn down $4000 for nothing. She had a pretty severe underbite and no matter the price, I was not willing to let that go as an example of the horses I wanted to breed, nor to lie to anyone nor even sell her under the assumption that she would self-correct as her dam did.

Yes, the bite came from her dam, as did the bad proportions. She was a worse example than her dam. I felt like I was playing with fire in breeding either one ever again.

Liz


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