# overo pattern



## Nancy (Feb 10, 2010)

I would like to know, if the stallion pictured above, tests negative for LWO, can he produce the frame overo pattern or would he have to be bred to a LWO positive mare to produce the frame overo pattern? I am not referring to splash I want only frame overos.In your opinion which would be the better way to cost effectively produce frame overos ? Would it be less expensive as far as purchasing the horses by purchasing a LWO positive [frame] overo stallion with a good frame pattern, and 10 mares that are solid or solid with sabino? Or would it be less expensive to use a LWO negative stallion, possibly with sabino and 10 LWO positive mares with a good frame pattern.

This is the pattern I would like to produce


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## Becky (Feb 10, 2010)

LWO _is_ frame overo, so in order to produce that pattern, one parent must be positive for LWO. My guess is that the horse pictured is LWO, but to know for sure, test!


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## vvf (Feb 10, 2010)

I agree with Becky, I would guess that the stallion pictures is LWO + , but you need to test to know for sure.

But in answer to your question, if that stallion would test negative, then no, he cannot produce frame (LWO), unless bred to a frame mare.

I sold a frame stallion a couple years ago that produced a high percent of frame foals out of non- frame mares.

I have since bought another frame stallion that i will cross on my non frame mares. And then I have a splash stallion to cross with my frame mares.

It is hard to say which way would be less expensive, (having the LWO stallion vs the LWO mares)


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## targetsmom (Feb 10, 2010)

Just want to add that what you DON'T want to do is breed LWO+ to LWO+ thinking it will increase you chance of getting a frame overo. All it will do is increase your chances of getting a lethal white foal that will die within 3 days.

If it were me, I would think your best bet would be to find a really nice frame overo stallion and breed him to solid mares. If any mares carry Rowdy blood (or maybe even if they don't) I would test to make sure they aren't LWO+. Solid mares will be easy to find.

Now, we breed for ANY pinto pattern and have a LWO+ mare, that when bred to our LWO- (and Rowdy bred) tobiano/splash stallion produced a wild colored tovero. That cross could also produce a frame overo, but we wanted to increase our chances of ANY pinto.

ETA: Remember that Rowdy was LWO+ and only a very small fraction of his get were obvious frame overos. You might want to try for stallion with a proven record of siring wild patterns.


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## Joanne (Feb 10, 2010)

The horse you are trying to produce is carrying more than just the frame (lwo) pattern. It is also carrying sabino.

Additionally, if you are trying to produce a black frame sabino overo you will need to have a horse that is black and preferably Homozygous for Black as one of the bred horses.

This is a mare of ours which is black, carries frame and sabino overo genes and is negative for tobiano pinto. She looks a lot like the horse you are trying to breed for.






Below is a 2009 colt of ours (Tango) that reminds me of your stallion. He is Frame overo (LWO) positive, and homozygous for black. He would need to be bred to a sabino pinto mare to be able to get the horse you are trying for.

Additionally, the horse you are trying for is a kind that is especially hard to breed for. But if you do not have the genes, just like Becky said, you can never produce that horse pattern and color.

You have to start somewhere. If you have the stallion already, start looking for LWO negative mares that are sabino (sb1) tested positive.

If you have LWO positive mares, get a sabino stallion to breed them to.









I hope this clarifies it for you.


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## Nancy (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks Becky I thought that was the case but, just wanted others to verify this , I have heard from some people say, if they have the pattern pictured on the sorrel stallion but, are LWO negative they can still produce frame overos.

I am having my stallion tested his sire was a grandson of Rowdy so he possibly carries the LWO gene but, as you say he will need to be tested. Thanks for the input. I have a lot to learn about the frame overo pattern.


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## Joanne (Feb 10, 2010)

Nancy I have heard people make that claim to. I guess to sell a horse, but maybe because they do not understand genetics.

You have to have the gene to be able to pass it on.

If you DO NOT have the gene in either the sire or dam, there is NO WAY they can pass on the gene as it does not exist.


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## Nancy (Feb 10, 2010)

Thanks again Becky and thanks also to Cindy, Targetsmom, and Joanne, that pretty much sums it up for me. Joanne you know, Angel needs to fly to Mississippi to live for a while.LOL Love that mare !


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## Joanne (Feb 10, 2010)

Not a chance, but nice try Nancy





I am TOTALLY in love with Angel !

Though you do have a certain frame overo mare that wants to vacation in California for a few years





We will see who makes the first move


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## Nancy (Feb 10, 2010)

Joanne, somehow i figured you would say that about Angel but, ya can't blame me for trying.LOL

WELL alright just be that way, I guess I will just have to settle for the one I have, what I wanted was to ADD one more.LOL


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## RockinSMiniature (Feb 10, 2010)

Hi Joanne,

Just wondering..





Do you think he has sabino in him?

He is neg. for frame overo.













It is very interested topic!..


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## Nancy (Feb 10, 2010)

Ok y'all, what pattern is this girl????






Sorry I couldn't resist.LOL





Isn't she precious though.


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## Dona (Feb 10, 2010)

RockinSMiniature said:


> Hi Joanne,
> Just wondering..
> 
> 
> ...



I'm not Joanne, but I would say this boy definitely is carrying a Sabino gene!


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## chandab (Feb 10, 2010)

Nancy said:


> Ok y'all, what pattern is this girl????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Spotted.



And, yes, she is precious.


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## Joanne (Feb 10, 2010)

Karrie the facial pattern, along with the roaning on him, certainly looks like he carries a sabino gene, as well as the obvious tobiano pinto gene.


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## Horse Feathers (Feb 10, 2010)

Nancy said:


> Ok y'all, what pattern is this girl????
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She has the cute gene


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## Joanne (Feb 10, 2010)

Our neighbor has THE most BEAUTIFUL FRAME OVERO PINTO ...... CATS!!!!!!!!!

It makes me so mad to struggle to produce awesome frame overo pinto horses and they just turn out the cats and in a couple of months! No waiting a year and only getting one!!!!!

And now donkeys too!!!!

Oh my... I think I need to go and rest a while


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## MBhorses (Feb 10, 2010)

my new stud is black overo. He is neg for LWO homozygous for black

what is up with photobucket? I was trying to post but the link wasn't there?


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## Nancy (Feb 10, 2010)

Joanne, I have the same thing here lots of overo cats,dogs but, I have to struggle to get just one little frame foal. Guess I need to raise overo hennies.LOL

Here are 2 more, these were my son's idea.


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## MBhorses (Feb 10, 2010)

http://www.painthorseafrica.com/014.php

site with some information.

http://www.palouse.net/Paint/overo1.htm


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## Songcatcher (Feb 10, 2010)

MBhorses said:


> my new stud is black overo. He is neg for LWO homozygous for black
> 
> what is up with photobucket? I was trying to post but the link wasn't there?


If this horse is LWO negative, he is NOT a "Frame" overo. He is Splashed White. The term "overo" is very misleading. Frame overo *IS* LWO positive.


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## Lewella (Feb 10, 2010)

Nancy said:


> This is the pattern I would like to produce


The pattern you would like to produce is not pure Frame - it is Frame + Sabino. Frame alone puts extremely little body white and face white on and does NOT add leg white. Frame isn't a strong pattern and it needs help to express - the most common helper being Sabino. Sb1 type sabinos (which is the type the example above appears to be) do an excellent job of producing multi patterned "framed" horses like the example above.


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## Joanne (Feb 10, 2010)

Nancy do you think if I hang photos of patterns like this in the foaling barn my mares will understand what I am after??? Or would that be too late?

Maybe I need to show the stallions at breeding ?

I think I am seriously in love with this one. If they produce patterns like this easier than minis I could be persuaded to change breeds !


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

Lewella , I like the combo pattern of frame + sabino as long as it has the dark along the top line in big horses I like ones like Blue Max. I know you cannot get exactly the look you want but, if I don't start with horses that are most likely to produce that pattern then I would be lowering my chances of ever getting them. Thanks for pointing out the combo on the horse I liked.


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

Joanne the one you liked is Halo. You might try hanging the picture but, make sure it is not a donkey or you might get those ears too.LOL


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## targetsmom (Feb 11, 2010)

Lewella said:


> Frame alone puts extremely little body white and face white on and does NOT add leg white. Frame isn't a strong pattern and it needs help to express - the most common helper being Sabino.


Thank you for that information!! That would explain why Rowdy (frame only???) has so few loud frame overo get. I believe that was called a "cropout" when it happened in Quarter Horses.


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## Connie P (Feb 11, 2010)

Nancy,

Your spotted donks are just adorable. I LOVE them!


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## Becky (Feb 11, 2010)

My own personal experience has been to cross LWO (frame) with sabino to get the loudest marked foals. And I've seen that happen with other breeders too.


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

Thanks Connie, this is my first experience with donkeys , they are not home yet but, I am getting anxious to ...get my hands on them........we are waiting for the snow to get off the roads at there present home.Soon I hope or, I might just have to brave the snow and go get them.LOL


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

Good idea Becky, I have my solid white LWO+ sabino stallion, bred to 7 solid mares for 2010 foals 2solid blacks,2 silver bays, 1 buckskin,1 silver dapple black and a really rich colored blue roan.






I think this year I will give him some solid+sabino mares.Do you think it would be to much sabino if sire AND dam carry the sabino?

This colt was out of a LWO+ sabino mare and Vermilyea Farms Top Consensus a solid black stallion.


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## Lewella (Feb 11, 2010)

Have you had him tested to see if he's Sb1 Sabino Nancy? If he's homozygous Sb1 you'll have a 50% chance of max white or nearly white foals if you breed him to mares that are Sb1.

Since your stallion is LW+ if he is homozygous Sb1 (Sb1 produces max whites when homozygous) he doesn't really need mares that are going to contribute a white pattern to get the pattern you want.


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## susanminiponygirl (Feb 11, 2010)

I love this topic!! I have Van Los PaleFace and also his grand son , they are breeding mares for me now, and I positively can't wait to see what they will produce for me! If I could just get another Angel....


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## Joanne (Feb 11, 2010)

Well Pale Face is her daddy!


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## susanminiponygirl (Feb 11, 2010)

YES!! They are getting mostly sabino mares, with a few solid mares tossed in (sounds like a salad!). A few mares went in with PaleFace in the Fall, most will go in this Spring, the hard part will be the waiting almost another year to see babies...

As a 2 yr old, Lucky will get just a few, experienced mares in his herd. I just love both stallions!


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

Lewella said:


> Have you had him tested to see if he's Sb1 Sabino Nancy? If he's homozygous Sb1 you'll have a 50% chance of max white or nearly white foals if you breed him to mares that are Sb1.
> Since your stallion is LW+ if he is homozygous Sb1 (Sb1 produces max whites when homozygous) he doesn't really need mares that are going to contribute a white pattern to get the pattern you want.



No I have not had him tested but,I felt sure he was sabino , I will have him tested for the SB1 if, that is what produces the max white , I don't want max white on my foals.Gosh I guess maybe I got lucky , for a change and picked the right mares for him,neg for SB1, I will defenately not give him SB1 mares if, he tests SB1 Thanks for that information it will really help.

I sold a really nice stallion a couple of years ago because he was throwing to much white even on pinto mares that had very little white , now I know why, apparently my stallion ,mares, or both were also SB1. I really didn't think a lot about testing for SB1 since there was still a chance they carries the other sabino gene but, if it is the SB1 that puts the white on the foals , it could be very helpful to know which of your horses were SB1 carriers.


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

Joanne said:


> Well Pale Face is her daddy!



Joanne , it looks like there is, a line forming, to try to " net"



your high flying Angel. LOL


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

Canterbury Classical Serenade pictured with her dam Windhavens Darling Mystic Shadow. She was an unexpected surprise I really expected a sorrel tobiano. I am now going to test dam for LWO gene and SB1. Do you think I should test the filly too, I am thinking about keeping her?






This is her sire Vermilyea Farms Analyze This.






A very wise friend advised me to have him tested, so he will be tested for the LWO gene too, I hope he tests LWO-.


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## Nancy (Feb 11, 2010)

susanminiponygirl said:


> I love this topic!! I have Van Los PaleFace and also his grand son , they are breeding mares for me now, and I positively can't wait to see what they will produce for me! If I could just get another Angel....




I would love to see there foals too, hope you show them on this forum.


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## MBhorses (Feb 11, 2010)

wow nancy

nice stud.I would love to see his foal.Nice filly as well.


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## Nancy (Feb 12, 2010)

MBhorses said:


> wow nancy nice stud.I would love to see his foal.Nice filly as well.


Thanks Melessa, the white is his and here are a few more of his foals .


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## ohmt (Feb 12, 2010)

Nancy, I am a BIG fan of Vermilyea Farms Analyze This! He is a beautiful stallion! With his pretty blue eyes and face white, I would say he is splash. I don't know about sabino as overo patterns are my downfall when it comes to color/pattern genetics. I would assume he has sabino as well though since his filly is a max expession sabino. Looks like he's good as passing along the splash gene though! Looks like all but one have it. Can a foal be completely white with splash and sabino? Once again, the overo patterns are my downfall! (I know splash is technically not overo 

For those that know more about overo patterns:

Can you post an example of what just splash and sabino look like together?? I've seen many examples of splash + tobiano, frame + tobiano, sabino + frame, but I don't know what a splash + sabino looks like!


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## Songcatcher (Feb 12, 2010)

ohmt said:


> Nancy, I am a BIG fan of Vermilyea Farms Analyze This! He is a beautiful stallion! With his pretty blue eyes and face white, I would say he is splash. I don't know about sabino as overo patterns are my downfall when it comes to color/pattern genetics. I would assume he has sabino as well though since his filly is a max expession sabino. Looks like he's good as passing along the splash gene though! Looks like all but one have it. Can a foal be completely white with splash and sabino? Once again, the overo patterns are my downfall! (I know splash is technically not overo  For those that know more about overo patterns:
> 
> Can you post an example of what just splash and sabino look like together?? I've seen many examples of splash + tobiano, frame + tobiano, sabino + frame, but I don't know what a splash + sabino looks like!


I don't have any pictures I can show, but have seen some. The white tends to come from the bottom up, just as Splash does, but Sabino adds jagged edges and roaning. I have seen some pictures of Splash/Sabino that tend to mimick Frame/Sabino.


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## DarkhHorseFarms (Feb 12, 2010)

Nancy said:


> This is the pattern I would like to produce


\

I know this horse. He lives here in Fallon and is LWO+

On solid and paint mares his color production is about 65%

Dont know if this information helps...


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