# I would like to ask a religous ?



## bcody (Aug 13, 2006)

I am just wondering if you have ever lost or waivered in your faith? If you have, how did you get it back? I am feeling a little lost and uncertain at the moment when it comes to God. Nothing major has happened to make me feel this way, I do not know know why I feel this way.


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## runamuk (Aug 13, 2006)

Well I think questioning ones faith is important. Blindly following the dictates of someone else can be dangerous. My personal belief is we each need to develop our faith in our own way even if it goes against our upbringing. Faith comes in many forms and there are many paths to faith. I don't feel it is what you believe so much as believing in something that is important.


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## nootka (Aug 13, 2006)

runamuk's right on.

My PERSONAL beliefs came about as a result of a long string of betrayals and contradictions in this matter.  I believe organized religion is a WRONG choice no matter what as there is no way one answer can be right for any group of people, whether it be a family or a nation, or just a large number of people. These groups are used ruthlessly by politicians and greedy individuals to steal, cheat and murder. It is horrible to me and it goes against what the principles of "faith" would lead one to understand.

It is a personal belief, or set of beliefs, and mine are such that there is no "god" type person controlling anything nor waiting for us all to "join up" or whatever, but that we as human beings on this planet, are responsible for OUR OWN behavior and we need to grow up and act like it and stop using excuses and crutches to get by. I am not perfect, but I don't think any of us expect everyone to BE perfect, we just need to treat others the way we would want to be treated (I do darn well believe in that golden rule).

There are a lot of good principles and factors of religion and the publications coming from such, but there is so much bad that it makes it distasteful to me. Look at all the forms and interpretations, basically if you wanted to eat cheese for breakfast and that was your major difference, you could find some passage in the bible or other publication that said that god wanted all people to eat cheese for breakfast (just being ridiculously hypothetical here) and base a religion thus. Look at Scientology...it is embarassingly based on a science fiction novel/concept and admittedly so if you look at L. Ron Hubbard's history, he bragged about doing what he's done with that.

People NEED something in their lives, something to believe in and I dont' begrudge that. It's when it gets out of control in that they want to control OTHER people's lives, judge them for it, or excuse this or that that I take issue with it. For example, there is a woman here that has the worst things happen to her, but I am convinced it is because she is a "victim" and she says "Oh well, god wanted that to happen." and she never actively DOES anything to fix it or to make things better. Her daughter is out of control and in a horrible way but god wanted it that way, it wasn't that SHE needed to change or to help her daughter, etc. she just "gave it to god" that is a sin to me. That girl needed counselling and she needed medical help, etc. Nope, "god" was going to fix it all and now that she is a disabled adult, well, it's because god wanted it that way. The other is that people put their heads in the sand and refuse to learn and understand our own world b/c it goes against religious principles (such as evolution for example). What god would not want a person to understand how their world came to be what it is and so they could better understand where it's headed also what more of a miracle IS the evolutionary/adaptive process which has brought us to this place in time right here? For those of you that don't believe in evolution, guess what, we've enacted it right here in our herds of Miniature Horses....look at what we've changed and "set" against nature perhaps but proof that it happens.

Meh sorry about the soap box. I think you need to probably take a step back and find your own way in this one. It does not make it any easier to accept the unfair if you have "no" religion, but it's just as easy to me to say it was "random" than that god pointed his finger and said, "your turn for a bad ride" and in some cases it happens over and over again.

My best wishes to you and I'm sorry you're having a rough patch. The one thing I think that is good/works about organized religion is the community of people that gather. THAT is not wrong. As long as they're not taking money for ill purposes, well, they are right on the money to gather and support each other in difficult times. You might contact someone within your church and tell them you're having a tough time. Or find anyone to talk to. It will help to have a hug and some time to hang out with someone who understands.

Liz M.


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 13, 2006)

I think Runamuk and Liz expressed it very much like I feel about religoin and God. There definitely would not have been as many wars in this world had it not been for organized religious beliefs getting in the way of good common sense. I too belive in the Golden Rule and being responsible for my own actions. God may allow all things to be but we have a choice in how we deal with it. JMHO Mary


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## shane (Aug 13, 2006)

well i lost my way and still am lost lol.......ive too many questions that need an answer, i dont practice any religion, but i do lead my life as best as possible, ive never really thought about religion much, in the last ten years, i have friends from all sides and ive never thought about asking there faith, but i do respect it when i know


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## Steph_D (Aug 13, 2006)

Since no one has spoken up for the Christian and God "side", I guess I'll go first. We're in a drought here so please don't flame me. I don't really want to start a fire :bgrin

Ok, the question (as I understand it) wasn't about organized religion and what you do or don't believe. It seems to me that Bcody is asking if you've ever "backslid" in your faith. I've always believed in God, but I haven't been a Christian except for about the last 5 years or so. I pray that I never backslide and turn away from God. But if I do, I know that He will accept me back and forgive me for my sins.

Bcody, I think there are "backsliders" in everything, not just faith. You've surely heard the term "falling off the wagon" when referring to gambling or drinking, and this is almost the same thing. I think that everyone comes to a point in their lives when they step back and rethink things. If you believe in God, then you have to believe in Satan. I believe that satan has a "bag of tricks" that he uses against us to try and make us fall on our faces in our Christian beliefs. You have to guard yourself against these tricks and learn to recognize them for what they are.

However, some people decide that God and Christianity just aren't for them. Do I agree with them? Absolutely not. But I'm sure that some don't agree with my way of life, either. I just pray for them the best that I can. I'm sure that some wouldn't like that people actually pray to God on their behalf, but that's just tough :bgrin

I'll leave this alone now, for I fear that it may get ugly. Faith is something that's been attacked and fought about for thousands of years and I don't see it stopping until the end. That's ok, I suppose. If no one bashes me in public, I won't bash them.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 13, 2006)

Sit tight, ask for help- it does not matter a fig to God if you lose your faith in Him, He will always believe in you so just you take your time.

In your own time, you will find Him again.

I think we have all been there, at some time or other.

If yo find your way back into organised religion, well then God Bless you, that is what is right for YOU, and that is what matters here, not the fact that this is not right for_ me_.

In your own time, Sweetie....




:


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## nootka (Aug 13, 2006)

I never have tried to dissuade anyone from having Faith.

I have faith. I just don't have faith in anything so fallible as one person's interpretation of something written by a human (ultimately this is true). I don't have faith in things that steal from weak or disadvantaged and give to rich and advantaged, as well as give people the basis for misgivings and bad choices because it "works" for a large group of people.

What works for one person may not work for another and it's likely to be true.

There is no right answer and I would not condemn anyone for their beliefs just the same as you would not condemn a child because they don't know better, or a pet because they were not trained. I am not saying I feel like I am "better" just have a different attitude.

So much of religion ends up being elitist and judgmental, and is the basis of much bad feeling and even murder/wars. If it is to end, we know our responsibilities as humans are treat each other RIGHT, and there is the reward for a life well-lived is the respect, love, and caring of other humans. It can't be wrong to think and live this way and if there IS a god who would withhold some reward for someone who lived this way but didn't believe in a particular deity, well, I have no use for them anyway and I will roast in whereever it is people like me go (which I don't believe in either, as in the he-ll we create we are living whether we realize it or not). I believe every human, animal, plant and organism experiences the same fate upon the failing of our body to sustain life. If someone were to judge us otherwise as a mere human, then they themselves need to question THEIR understanding of their "loving god."

Faith is not necessarily defined as religious to me. It is faith in something you believe in, whatever it is and it IS a necessary feature of life. I am not fighting or trying to get "ugly" with anyone, as this topic is one that is not worth causing pain to anyone over, there is enough of it going on in the world as it is (pain caused by religious causes trying to force their beliefs on others).

The way to find your faith again is to look at the most basic value of your life and those that you love and that love and need you. It will be there for you again. I know you said nothing happened to make this come about, but I think all people question this from time to time. Again, I urge you to find like-minded people that you love and trust and discuss with them, lean on them as you need. I bet you'll find more than a little faith there, too.

Liz

(who never feels badly that anyone might pray for me, rather I am honored that they thought that much of me, and I appreciate the thought greatly).


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## bcody (Aug 13, 2006)

Thank you for all your responses, and for being civil. I realize this could be a hot topic, but felt we can also all be adults. I have read the responses and it gives me comfort, and hope. I believe everyone has different beliefs and practice for faith, even people within the same religion have a different degree of practice/faith. I am not judgmental on anyone for their religious thoughts, it only matters, to me, how they live and treat others.

Liz, thank you. "(The way to find your faith again is to look at the most basic value of your life and those that you love and that love and need you. It will be there for you again. I know you said nothing happened to make this come about, but I think all people question this from time to time. Again, I urge you to find like-minded people that you love and trust and discuss with them, lean on them as you need. I bet you'll find more than a little faith there, too.)" This is very good advice.

Thank you all for the support, and lack of flames, I will give it some time and beleive that it will work. I am a big believer in the energy you put out is the energy you get back.

Thanks again.


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## susanne (Aug 13, 2006)

The renewal of your spirit and your beliefs will come in a way unique to you, whether it be through religion per se or events and inspirations that resonate within you. As Jane said, it will happen in its own time, in its own way.

I am deeply inspired when I see and hear of people who have suffered tremendous abuse, yet are amongst the most loving and giving peope I could ever hope to meet. The same is true with how abused animals find it in their souls to forgive and once again love.

The strength and resilience of the soul speaks to me of the power of faith, no matter what one's beliefs.


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## nootka (Aug 13, 2006)

I'm glad you found some comfort here, that's what it's all about; we're all in this together and we need to be there or each other regardless. I have found some very supportive and loving friends in all walks of life, and some very unexpected ones, so it never pays to judge anyone based on anything external, including what they do or don't believe, because a person's faith becomes apparent as you witness them withstanding difficulty. It may also unexpectedly become a resource you yourself will draw upon.

My grandmother was not "religious" and yet she had a great deal of strength and faith. I draw much faith from her spirit. She wanted so much to believe in a reward for living her life with integrity (she was basically a single mom, her husband was very ill/disabled and she had to work and care for two young boys in a time when women got paid zilch for working, she also didn't drive a car and had to walk and ride the bus to do all this), that she chose a quote for her headstone, "Now enter unto the joys of thy lord, thou good and faithful servant." (may not be exactly as it is) and her explanation was not "THE" lord, but "A" lord, your own personal belief and this reward was what living a good life was about, not in merely waiting for it, living it.

That she did. Faith is something that is tested by its very nature, and more so in adversity. I would be willing to bet that you are a very deeply faithful person no matter how it waxes and wanes.

Some of the people I rely on the most don't spend much time in a church, reading the bible or listening to any type of preaching...they live a good life and do things for others that often noone ever finds out about, the kind of good they in their hearts know, and breeds more good, ultimately. I like these kinds of things...happy secrets.






Liz

"The strength and resilience of the soul speaks to me of the power of faith, no matter what one's beliefs. "

Again susanne scores a home-run w/her summation. Very true and perfectly apt.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 13, 2006)

Ummm...staying civil and not flaming BUT...I have no faith in Jesus, I am not a Christian.

I shall NOT go to heck because of it, I just do not believe my salvation lies in Jesus, and I never shall.

I have not dropped off the planet yet, and I believe no less strongly in God for it.

Sorry, needed to get that off my chest as I know a few of us here are no Christians, either.


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## nootka (Aug 13, 2006)

> Ummm...staying civil and not flaming BUT...I have no faith in Jesus, I am not a Christian.I shall NOT go to heck because of it, I just do not believe my salvation lies in Jesus, and I never shall.
> 
> I have not dropped off the planet yet, and I believe no less strongly in God for it.
> 
> Sorry, needed to get that off my chest as I know a few of us here are no Christians, either.


Well, we're pretty much on the same page.

Liz M.


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## mrgizzmoe (Aug 13, 2006)

yea we all have im sure. I dont consider myself as being religous. I dont even know if there is a god. there may be nothing after this life. It is all a matter of what keeps you going. I live by the golden rule . treat others as I want to be treated. I do the best I can to be the best person I can. if there is a god then that should be enough in his eyes


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## lyn_j (Aug 13, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt]There have been lots of times in my life when I got in the way of my faith. Jesus was always there to speak on my behalf..... God looks at us thru the covering of Jesus because He knew that on our own we couldnt keep our faith. Breathe deep....... think of times in your life when you knew you werent making it on your own. Even great fathers of Faith in the Bible, Moses, David, and others who wondered sometimes if God was really there....and then God prooved that He was still there..... even the apostle Peter, who lived with the Lord and followed his teachings denied him 3 times but regained his faith. You might feel lost but Jesus will find you.... in the parable of the shepherd and the lost lamb he left the 99 to go look for that one. I will pray for you to find your way back. God isnt hiding He is always right there.[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## Miniv (Aug 13, 2006)

I ditto Jane (RabbitFizz's) first post.........Don't worry. God (or Jesus) hasn't gone anywhere. The question is in YOU and in YOUR HEART.

I think it's normal for many to question either their faith or their religious upbringing. In time you will find what is right for YOU.

MY belief is that God (or Jesus) are not judgemental with love -- only humans are.

I happen to believe in God and that God sent Jesus to earth to show us a Path -- an easier Path for our Souls on earth on how to get closer to Him. I also believe there are other paths humans can take, but Jesus did a very good job at spelling things out simply for the "common folk".



: Jesus showed and taught many many things about faith and our own Spiritual Power -- much of which is either buried in the current Bible or was editted from original scripture, so it can only be found with some research.

So, don't say you have "lost your faith"......consider it a LEARNING CURVE. Don't be afraid to read and research about the Bible.....including the books of the Bible that were tossed out over the years by us Humans. Then, in the end......always listen to YOUR HEART for what is right for YOU.

When you do find what is right, you will know.......because you will be at peace within yourSELF.

Hope what I've posted make some sense........

MA


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## nootka (Aug 13, 2006)

> I live by the golden rule . treat others as I want to be treated. I do the best I can to be the best person I can. if there is a god then that should be enough in his eyes


-EXACTLY.

And MA, what you posted makes perfect sense to anyone, I would think, with a conscience.

The sad thing to me is that there is sometimes a very blurry and wide "line" between faith and becoming overzealous/mentally ill, obsessed even. Therein lies a HUGE problem in that we end up with terrible injustice.

L.


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## Miniv (Aug 13, 2006)

nootka said:


> And MA, what you posted makes perfect sense to anyone, I would think, with a conscience.
> 
> The sad thing to me is that there is sometimes a very blurry and wide "line" between faith and becoming overzealous/mentally ill, obsessed even. Therein lies a HUGE problem in that we end up with terrible injustice.
> 
> L.


Liz,

We live in a world of choices. Nothing is spelled out in black or white, because of that. I think God intended us to have our choices for Soul Growth. Unfortunately it also means we are witness (and victims) to a lot of stupidity and pain caused by others.

In the end all any of us have IS faith and how WE deal with the injustices from others........

MA


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## Marty (Aug 13, 2006)

nevermind


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## Ashley (Aug 13, 2006)

I am also a beleiver in the golden rule. As long as you try your best day in and day out and do what is right you will be ok.

I dont belive in god, but have several friends that are very religious. I respect them the same as they respect me. As long as you dont push it on me, I wont push my non beleiveing on you. That said anybody that wants can pray for me but I can assure you you are wasting your time.


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## SWA (Aug 13, 2006)

:saludando:


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## nootka (Aug 13, 2006)

I'm with you, Ashley, as long as they don't try to "save" me from "myself" as evil as I may be, I am fine.

I don't particularly like being "condemned" but I deal with it as they are only doing what they were taught and believe. No biggie either way we all feel like we have the truth.

I can't see that as being wrong...to live and do decently and burn in "H" b/c of it? wow...seems a little "arrogant" on the deity's part at least this is how I feel and if they are that way, they have no business pretending to be "perfect."

Liz


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 13, 2006)

Marty, I am so sorry that you feel God has forsaken you, but if you know that God doesn't make mistakes you must know that he hasn't forsaken you. I do understand that there are people who think it is God who "takes" our loved ones from us but I don't believe it. How can God be blamed when it was the actions of one person that caused Michael's death? I know, we were both raised as Catholics and taught that God is all powerful and yet, we know from experience, he will not take matters into his own hands when it comes to returning our loved ones to us once they are gone. I do understand how anyone can become confused about God's part in our loses...but as we learn, we find that we are here to learn and some of the things we have to learn is very difficult. I think one of the reasons that people often leave organized religion is because what is taught is often confusing. I have asked myself over and over as to how a loving God can let such horrible things happen. I have had to do a lot of thinking about this ...I hate to see people suffer and it breaks my heart and yet I know deep down that we are not here to understand everything....only here to learn to do the best we can with any given situation. There are no promises in life that everything will be easy, or all fun or all good and yet many expect it and become disappointed when difficulties happen. You have the power...the power to bring your family back together, you have the power to see that there is happiness again in your family and you know that is what Michael would want. Don't let the actions of that one person destroy your life. I hope ypou will pursue the goal of making people more aware of the tragedies which come from drunkeness and drugs. I know it can't be asy for you but you can do it Marty....you have the power. Hugs, Mary



Marty said:


> I will admit that I have loved Jesus Christ all my life and worshiped God and devoted myself completely and never lost faith until now.
> 
> I feel that God has forsaken me.
> 
> ...


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## runamuk (Aug 14, 2006)

barnbum said:


> If it's heaven you wish for, being good isn't enough. According to the Bible, there will be many many surprised folks who thought being good was enough, and find out differently. Accepting Jesus is all it takes, it's a free gift. The "being good" comes with the territory for most. Well, there's always the attempt to let little lights shine as best we can. For we are all sinners.
> 
> John 14:1-6 "Do not let your hearts be troubled. Trust in God, trust also in me. In my Father's house are many rooms; if it were not so, I would have told you. I am going there to prepare a place for you. And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come back and take you to be with me that you also may be where I am. You know the way to the place I am going." Thomas said to him, 'Lord, we don't know where you are going, so how can we know the way?' Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE (caps mine) comes to the Father except through me."


Two points/questions

first exactly WHAT is meant by accept jesus? I have heard at least 20 different ways and all of them are right (supposedly) yet all the other ways are wrong




:



:

And that second verse _Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. NO ONE (caps mine) comes to the Father except through me."_

this leaves lots of room for interpretation.....to me jesus is saying to live ones life as he has lived and to follow his teaching.....nowhere in that statement does it say to worship him as a god.

I am not saying you are wrong as you are firm in your own belief.........I am merely placing an example of why I firmly believe each soul is solely responsible for finding their own way to faith and belief.


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## SWA (Aug 14, 2006)

:saludando:


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## SWA (Aug 14, 2006)

:saludando:


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## nootka (Aug 14, 2006)

On a similar vein, though we are wandering far afield from the original post/inquiry, did anyone watch the 30 days episode tonight?

It was my first and I almost laughed when I saw it was Atheist/Christian. I don't know why I thought Atheist was such a negative term, but I looked up the actual definition afterward and it's merely a denial of the existence of god or gods. I have always felt myself to be more agnostic though I would say Agnostic with Atheistic leanings.





I had no idea people were so discouraged by the fact that they can't "pin down" a source of beliefs. Is not respect for life and loving enough?

Spirituality doesn't have to have its roots in organized religion, IMO. The definitions of this word include god in some of their interpretations, but not all do.

I do have faith in an intangible current in our lives, some force greater than ourselves but I believe it is the human spirit above all opposed to a single force determining our fate based on our behavior.

It is always interesting to me if frustrating, to read others' beliefs and I understand what that Christian family was grappling with in hosting the Atheist woman in their home. I was glad to see they were so accepting of each other, ultimately, and proof that being good human beings is the basis to our ability to get along and survive here.

Liz


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## SWA (Aug 14, 2006)

:saludando:


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## SWA (Aug 14, 2006)

:saludando:


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## lyn_j (Aug 14, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt]I grew up in an Anabaptist church, which is an off shoot of the menonite church. We are very fundimental and belive the scripture as it is written. Even then there is lots open to interpretation, some things we follow that are tradition not doctrine... Anabaptist only means re-baptized or baptized again and they came from the Lutheran church thru the amish and menonites. Anyway that is irelavent. (sp) I am aa christian. The word means Christ like, a follower of Christ. I am not locked into believeing that only my denomination is right. I believe that individuals who accept Christ and his teachings to be Lord of their lives and by accepting his gift of love, His death on the cross to cover my sin because "All have sinned and come short of the glory of God." We become "good" people and do "good" works when we make an effort to be Christ like. If we see the world thru Jesus eyes we will love God with all our hearts and minds and we will love our neighbors as our selves ( the golden rule personified). Organized religion becomes a place for me to be with those of like minded faith, to strengthen my faith and my knowledge of Gods word. Some organized religion is wrong, If it becomes as a cult following blindly after a person not Christ then it is wrong. Jesus is in my heart. I know it, I have seen evidance of that in my life. I have seen and ben party to miracles that I know came only from God. Thats how I know He is real.[/SIZE]

I have seen Bible prophesy being fulfilled expecially now. If you have a Bible or can get the Bible on line read about the end time prophesies in Ezekiel, Isiah, Daniel, and Revelations, although that is a hard one with lots of symbolism. The middle east wars etc are prophesied there exactly as they are happening now. History and Biology PROVE the Word of God is true so if part of it is true then all of it must be. My job on earth is to proclaim the gospel because if we dont speak the word then, the Bible says "the stones will cry out"/

Sorry for so long but I felt compelled to write it.

Lyn


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## runamuk (Aug 14, 2006)

HUH........I went I read some and I had no idea that jesus was the creator which is exactly what it says on that site.....that is a completely new twist for me..............

I am glad that you have your faith and that these discussions strengthen it



: that is a good thing.

As these discussion always strengthen MY personal beliefs and faith.....and I also always learn something new.



barnbum said:


> > Two points/questionsfirst exactly WHAT is meant by accept Jesus? I have heard at least 20 different ways and all of them are right (supposedly) yet all the other ways are wrong
> 
> 
> It's such an important question, I want to make sure it's answered thoroughly. This gentleman is one of the most passionate believers/speakers I know. He answers it just right: http://rhm.gospelcom.net/yours/
> ...


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## kaykay (Aug 14, 2006)

well shoot here goes nothing. I rarely talk about my spiritual beliefs because its so personal to me.

back to the posters question have i ever wavered? absolutely i have. Years ago i lost my dad, then my sister and took custody of her daughter. right after that i lost my mother and a best friend. all of them in 3 years. My sister and mother died of cancer and i was both of their caretakers. It was the worst 3 years of my life and I started to question everything including my faith. I decided there was no God no Jesus etc. I was alone and that was all their was to it. Boy was I ever alone! It wasnt until later when i began to get desperate and i got on my knees and begged for love and direction that I got my answer. And that is between me and Him and not for public discussion



Only after that did the pain heal and i could welcome love back into my life again and be the mother and wife i needed to be.

As for organized religion no i do not participate in that. I have yet to find a church that does what a church should do. I remember back when churches did so much good and always took care of their flock and the poor and the needy. Now it seems to be all about what you can do for the church not what the church can do for you. And money. How much money can you give to your church seems to be of prime importantce. When i had this debate with my daughters then fiancee i asked him to bring me his churches treasury statement. Luck would have it they had just handed it out. Him and I went thru it goether. Not one dime of what they took in went to help any family member of the church or anyone in the community where the church was built. Any money that went to help people went overseas. The majority of the budget was spent on the new church they were building. I asked him why with so many single mothers in our small town struggling to eat every week why they were sending money for missionarries over seas?? He couldnt answer (teen pregnacy and single mothers was a huge problem in that town) And honestly after really looking at his churches budget he had to agree that most of the money went ot the church itself or overseas. Such a shame when so many needed help 2 blocks from the church

I see Him everywhere I look and everywhere I go. My home and family is my church. And I try whenever I can to do the right thing and to instill this in my children but im human so far from perfect lol.

Kay


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 14, 2006)

"I see Him everywhere I look and everywhere I go."

Well said Kay. I am by far closer to God, now, then I ever was when going to church. After all He was the one that made the sun and the moon. the meadows and the mountains, the flowers and the beauty of all nature. He didn't make churches. As for the bible. It has been rewritten so many times that we don't know what is left of it that is actually God's word. Why would God write more then one way of how things happened, such as creation? The bible is way too ambiguous and contradictory for me to believe all that is said was written by God. JMHO Mary


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## Nancy G (Aug 14, 2006)

AMEN Lyn. I too believe in the God of the Bible, his son, Jesus Christ and the Holy Spirit. (The Trinity.) Our church does have an outreach program. They have helped many in our community. The final word in our church is in the truth of the Bible.

We *all* have a* choice* and I choose to accept Jesus as my savior, the son of God. Eternal Life is a free gift from God, received through His Son who died for our sins. God is love! How wonderful to part of His family. When I feel like I am *drifiting* from God, *I talk to him more*, read his word. Even with good friends, we need to keep in touch to further our relationship.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 15, 2006)

Charity begins at home.

We have charity shops called "Oxfam" set up years and years ago when Charity shops did not exist- they were the first.

The idea is you take all your unwanted stuff (not JUNK, just unwanted) and they wash it and iron it and fluff it up and put it in sale.

This all went swimmingly for a while- we (I was a kid at Art School) all piled into these shops and got all our "groovy" clothes from them, this was the Sixties and pretty much anything went!!

Fast forward a few years.

These shops are now run and managed- the Managers a paid, all other staff is volunteer.

I was in a few years back and an old man was protesting the price of a shirt- around $8.00 they were charging- the woman on the till said primly"It is for Charity, you know" he turned to her and he said"I fought in the war foe you, so you could stand there and be free to say that to me. I cannot AFFORD that shirt and, when I was a kid, Charity began at HOME" and he left the shop.

I have NEVER forgotten that.

Of course nowadays I have to stand there and be elbowed in the ribs by bloody Muslim woman wearing their getups- they are SO rude, whilst their spoiled brats run riot round the shop- heaven forfend you should say No to a BOY child!!!

But that is another story-- and before you preach Religious Tolerance to me, come live in my neighbourhood for a month!!!!


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## nootka (Aug 15, 2006)

> But that is another story-- and before you preach Religious Tolerance to me, come live in my neighbourhood for a month!!!!


If anyone is using religious tolerance to try and get by with terrible behavior and just plain being obnoxious, I feel badly for them.

That is just basic human decency, to not cause someone a bunch of discomfort or distress. Not sure what's going on, but I think I understand a bit of what you may be alluding to.

It amazes me that the ones who are trying to be the most "christ-like" end up coming off as very much the opposite due, for the most part, to a snobbery or some sort of idea they have that their idea is the only way, the best way.

Believe me that my faith and beliefs are hard-won and not lightly thought out, and they are open to change. This last statement I know that many religiously devout cannot claim. Their minds are, simply, unable to be open because they are bound and restricted by the beliefs that are told to them in one form or another. Living in this world with a closed mind is dangerous, if you ask me. How else can you defend the banning of beautiful works of art and poetry, literature, SCIENCE, for cripes' sake, merely because it goes "against the word of god or the teachings of the bible." It is wrong and backwards and that to me is the true reason I cannot condone anyone following anything blindly. There should be no fear in learning more about our lives and our origins other than the loss of the power of a following.

There was a time, as a small child, when I asked for help from "GOD" or "JESUS" or anyone and it never came. It never appeared nor was there a flicker of light or hope and I relied on my own strength. It simply doesn't exist and so one must look out for one's self.

I could go on a long time, but I did promise not to drag this out anymore b/c I believe bcody has had her question answered and here we are wandering all over the map on it.





Anyway, it is the large groups of people, the organizers and the "leaders" that ultimately destroy these things. I honestly believe the people have wonderful intentions for the most part...but take that desire and do something with it. Your $5 you might drop in the collection plate would mean a lot more to someone directly that you know needs it. It might end up being only $2 to the church's charity as they have to pay their bills, too...if you don't know someone in need, take it upon yourself to find someone. You won't have to look far.

Sorry if I've offended anyone. So far, all I've gotten, though, are supportive and posts in agreement, privately, so I know I'm not alone. I don't begrudge anyone their faith, their strength and joy. What I do dislike is to think that someone is hiding from seeing the full truth, the full beauty and miraculousness of life, and to accept responsibility in their own destiny, and worse yet, to think someone is being taken advantage of. (don't get me started on THAT).

L.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 15, 2006)

Or the teachings of the Q'ran, for that matter- the religious fanatics in Afghanistan blew up- DESTROYED two statues of Buddha- nealry a thousand years old- carved out of the rock face because "idols" or for that matter any depictions of real life (except of course the religious leaders- that apparently is OK) are forbidden.

This is the reason for the weird sort of perspective in some of the beautiful pictures from early Islam- it was not that they did not fully understand perspective- these were the people who had Science with a capital "s" when we were still taking baths once a year, if you were lucky- it was that the depiction of reality id forbidden by law...(unless you are a religious leader and then it is OK)


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## nootka (Aug 15, 2006)

Interpretation is subjective and can be somewhat dangerous or damaging to both parties. When I feel myself doing so, I try to step back and examine it more carefully.

I don't intend bitter, more so jaded I would think, than anything else.

I think because I realize more and more people think as I fear, that anyone without a religious belief that they can lay a name to, is a less trustworthy person, an unknown quantity and yet the opposite has held true in my life and experiences, for the most part.





It's so hard to defend a feeling you have, that you are so very convinced of, and yet you know, no matter what, that most other people won't get it. I feel very lucky to have a multitude of people around me that feel that way. Or maybe it's where I live.

I can't get behind anything based on superstition and manipulation, loose interpretations, though I understand the feeling it must be coming from. I get that from my love of life, my love of my surroundings, my wants and desires, the people I love and admire and the things I do that make me feel good about myself. It is no great mystery, just the magic that is life, and that's one great miracle in itself. To have arrived at this place is a happy thing, a peaceful calm, I know those of you with great faith in your god must understand, it seems very similar.

Liz


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## runamuk (Aug 16, 2006)

barnbum said:


> Just an observation: the posts made by those who speak of their Christian faith are gentle, peace filled in tone and voice. The voice/tone in others sound bitter, angry, defensive.
> 
> It's sad that some lump all Christians in such a negative view. I'm sorry for whatever happened to cause that.
> 
> ...


Actually I find YOU to be gentle and teaching where as many are preaching their "HOLY ROLLER" diatribe...........I enjoy your opinion as you are firm in your belief but do not seem to be actively trying to convert me...........that alone speaks volumes.........to my knowledge you have never condemned US to HE_LL.......but have presented your opinion with explanation........wether I fully agree or not is not the issue......the issue is you handle the subject in amanner that .....even I believe Christ would be proud of............do as I do not as I say



:


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## crponies (Aug 16, 2006)

Well, Karla, Jesus did tell us to be wise as serpants and harmless as doves. So, if the Christians on this thread have truly been gentle while presenting their views, they have done very well indeed.

As far as the original question, if I ever am feeling distanced from my faith, it generally means I need to spend some time reading God's Word and praying to my loving God. I find so much peace, even in the midst of heartache or the chaos of life, when I spend time listening and talking to my Lord and Savior. I'm so glad to have a personal relationship with Jesus and if I ever seem to be telling someone they need one it is because 1) I truly believe they do 2) I care what happens to them and 3) I wish they could experience the joy and peace that I know because I know Him. That said, I don't believe being pushy ever accomplishes anything when it comes to religion. It is the quiet working of the Holy Spirit that will help anyone come to place their faith in the truth found in the Bible. God gave people a right to choose when He created them, and we certainly can't take that right away. I respect everyone's right to choose and that is true tolerance (tolerance does not mean I have to see what you have chosen as being right).


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## Miniv (Aug 16, 2006)

I don't know if this will help, but can sort of see from both perspectives.........please bear with me, this is probably going to be long.......

I was brought up in a very loving family. We attended the Episcopalian church and my mother was extremely devout and was VERY ACTIVE within the parish and insisted we all be actively involved. My older brother was so intensely drawn to the church that he considered becoming a priest or a monk, before he was murdered just prior to his 22nd birthday. I was 15, just about to turn 16 at the time.....

I have to say that our family's faith held us and kept us close together. And I thank God - LITERALLY for that. Attending church and having the support of the priest and members of the congregation was wonderful. I will never forget that. It was also partly responsible for helping my father (who had been an agnostic up until then) admit that there WAS something more.....there WAS a Life after Death.......and he agreed to be Baptized as a Christian.

However, the other things that happened that year - plus what followed, was an eye-openner. There is no way I can share with you EVERYTHING or this would be a NOVEL. But my mother, my younger brother, a close family friend, and I -- ALL received actual visits and signs from my older brother, Dan, after he passed. I can only speak for my OWN visiits. The others I was not witness to, but have no reason to not believe them because of their content........one in particular was prior to our even knowing of my Dad's Baptism, but Dan knew it was going to happen.

Sadly, the organized church, at that time, felt that our experiences were not acceptable and were evil. Yes, I do know evil. I've experienced it more than once. And it is frightening.

I continued to attend services both at my family church and also the Roman Catholic church where my new husband had been brought up. (We were married with the blessing of BOTH churches at that time and with FOUR PRIESTS to bless us! LOL! )

I know I'm laying my spleen out on the line here........and this is getting very long. But I want you all to understand where I'm coming from. It was not an easy choice because it went against all that I was raised with.

But in the end, because of my (and my family's) "Spiritual" experiences.....and I do continue to have them......I was labelled, according to the local priest in this area now, I am going to go to H*ll.

I do not accept what that priest says......for several reasons -- The first is, he is a Human Being with probably as many faults as I have, so how can he judge? -- Also, I have researched the ORIGINAL SCRIPTURES, probably more than many. And more importantly, I know what is in MY HEART.

And therein lies THE TRUTH.... I know that God in the end knows what is in MY HEART and how I have lived my life the best that I've known how........and that is all that matters. Period.

Sorry for all that......because the important part of my post is summed up in that one last paragraph. Guess I just wanted to show you how I got to that simple truth.........It's taken me almost a half century






And that's how I've lost(?) and found my faith.....going back to answer the orignal post.



:

MA


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## nootka (Aug 16, 2006)

MA, your perception, your understanding and awakening to what is right for you is what is right for every person on this planet. It is YOURS. No ONE person can tell you what it is.

It would be like me telling you what color horses you have to raise (for a trite example) because I like that color, or I think it will sell well, etc. Or telling you that you need to read such and such books and watch certain movies and only those.

I think what is clear to me is that the strongest people with the most "tested" faith tend to be those that have this individual, accepting and open-minded approach.

I have done a lot of research (superficially) into several types of religions' beliefs and though I find that many agree with most of what I believe and know, there is nothing that covers it all and the basic core is that there is no one single "god". God, as we may perceive him, or want to perceive him (or her), is us. Our collective conscience, and there is no single being that takes this place.

I know that I could go on and on, but MA's story saddens me because these are the things that turn such a wonderful concept (to gather together for betterment and enlightenment of the spirit, and comfort) into an ugly and condemning one. It can't be so that someone would go somewhere as awful as what He*ll is described as for such innocence and comfort in feeling their lost loved ones' presence post-death.

Thanks for sharing your story, and all of you for sharing your beliefs. If you look, there are common threads and this is similar to where we stand on the subject that brought us "here" in the first place: Miniature Horses. *LOL*

Liz


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## Westwood Farms (Aug 16, 2006)

Carla,

I did PM you,but here is another story. We are christian first and foremost. We do go to a Baptist church for the feeding of Gods Word, and even teach ourselves. WE get worn out, frustrated, and in the motion sometimes. But, this is what completely changed our lives, and this is different than the PM.

We had some good friends down the road. Nice Christian mom, and 3 children. The husband had no christianity. One day we got the call at 6 AM. He had just murdered Leslie, and 2 of the Children, Nathan (11) and Carmen ( 6). Then he shot a policeman, then himself. The only reason he did not get the older son is because he ran out of the bathroom window, and got to the neighbors.

This story starts many weeks before he killed them:

Last year, I taught Awanas With Leslie. For some reasonthis summer, she decided to order all her supplies for this year, which starts today. So, all her orders are in place, and someone has already taken her position as T N T director. God has his plan in place.

Then, the week before the murders, the oldest son was in church camp all week. All that week, the sermons and talks were about struggles in life, and how to cope. Preacher said he had never in all his years going, heard such powerful messages, and Cullen was responding.

God put Cullen in that place to learn how to be strong, and courageous. And he is. He has a very long road ahead of him, and is taking it in stride.

Then, since preacher was gone, his son came down from seminary to preach that sunday. He did not know that Leslie had filed for divorce that week, she was getting out of that abusive relationship. He also came in and preached on hardships, how to stay strong, and how God will be there for anything . All I see is God leading us to this horrific tragedy. He made sure we were as prepared as we could be.

WE have since become a very close family, and treasure every day. Life is too short, and when we know God is in total control. We practically live at the church, but nothing feels better that going Home, to church. WE have the greatest prayer worriors, and we all consider each other true family. WE are all very close. Our congretation is only about 100 or so, so, we know everyone personally, and get strength from them.

And there is no doubt in my mind God is very real. The only way to salvation is through Jesus Christ. That is plain and clear in the Bible. And we are forgiven for our sins by the blood of Jesus.

I will be praying for your strength, and I will go back and add more today when I get a chance to read all the posts.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 16, 2006)

The Christian viewpoint, as put by Alicia and others seems gentle and innocuous.

Remember please, although you feel you are saved by the blood of Christ, that I and others do not accept Christ as Saviour and are still saved and are still as close to God as you are.

You have chosen your path to God and I am glad for you.

I have chosen my path to God, and it is as open and as true as yours.

There is no right or wrong path to God, ANY path that leads to God is the right path , and Jesus is NOT the only way to get there, whatever the New Testament says.

To me the Bible, the Q'ran, any Holy book is _only_ ever what a _man_(Dear God, why did you not talk to a Woman?? We are so very much better at listening as we have so much more practise!!) but these books are what a MAN _thought_ God had _meant_ to say to him. And then they were written down. And copied. And bits were lost. And they were translated.

And, as I read them, occasionally you can see the word of God and then you see great long passages when you can _hear_ the Monks that were transcribing it saying "Oh, NO that cannot be right, I'm sure He NEVER meant for women to be equal to men, we had better change that straight away!!"

And again"Oh, NO we cannot have people believing they can pray to God anywhere, even though it says so, we had better alter that a little so they come to church and give us money"

For how many hundreds of years have the words of the Bible only applied in the way that the Priests and Pastors interpret them?????

The Word of God needs NO interpretation, and I am sorry but I hear the Word of God far more clearly out in my fields, with my horses, watching the seasons change, than I will EVER read in a book translated, altered, lost and edited over three, four thousand years or even more.

And based, at the beginning, on what a MAN thought God had said to him.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 16, 2006)

Karla I think you are misunderstanding what I am saying and I cannot quite understand how or why??

I am NOT a Christian.

Jesus is NOT the only path to God.

ANY path that leads to God is the right path.

I have NO intention of promoting Christianity since I do not believe in it.

I believe in GOD and I do not need to believe in Jesus to be "saved" in fact, I do not need saving, I am fine as I am.





If you choose to believe in Jesus as your saviour I am happy for you, I really am.

But please do not expect me to, nor to think that I will not be acceptable in the eyes of God because I do not.


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## KanoasDestiny (Aug 16, 2006)

I have a question...and PLEASE don't flame me. I do believe in God and Christ, and would like to consider myself as having a good relationship with both of them. I get very confused when reading the Bible and discussing religion with people, so there is a lot that I don't understand. I was wondering if someone who is Christian can please explain something to me?

In the Bible, it says that when we die, our spirit returns to the Heavens to be with our Father. Am I right so far? It also states that after armagedon, humans will again inheret the earth, to make it beautiful again. I think the Bible calls this the everlasting paradise. Please expalin how this can be. Do we get sent back to earth from the heavens? I know of nowhere, where it says we will inheret the heavens (other than the 144,000 that shall reside by Christ's side).

I am not trying to start any kind of debate, just looking for an explaination. Thank you.


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## Nancy G (Aug 16, 2006)

The Bible says in Revelations that there will be a new heaven and new earth, after Armageddon. We will live and reign with Jesus Christ forever. I have a chart here on the end times which helps to explain it all. I will send that to you if you would like to see a copy.

A christian can feed and grow on Gods word when attending church and getting involved in small groups (Bible study) etc. , God`s word says, in Hebrews 10:25, Let us not give up meeting together - let us encourage one another. The Bible also says, the only way to grow in faith, is through feeding on the word "Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the word of God."

Many believe there is a God and believe Jesus Christ was His son (so does satan) but --- we must accept the Son to receive the free gift of eternal life with God. Since I accepted Jesus Christ as my savior, my life has changed. I now have such peace within. I have joy, love and hope! I look forward to the day when I get to heaven (HOME) God is Love.

Matthew 5:11-12


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## looney2n (Aug 17, 2006)

I'm new to lil beginnings and I have found everyone's opinions so helpful already. I am really impressed that the subject of religion didnt start a fire here. Good job everyone! Anyway, all I want to say is that when I am feeling like God has abandoned me, I remember the verse in the Bible that says that I am the apple of his eye! I also like to think of when my kids were small and just learning to walk. If they fell, we didnt turn away from them or scold them. We smiled, then lovingly picked them up and let them start again, one step at a time as we guided them. That is what I believe my Father in heaven is doing as I daily choose the path to take. He's always there..and He realizes that this life is hard, He doesnt get mad at us when we have times that we are angry with life or even Him. He patiently waits for us to turn to him. Well, that's my 2 cents. God Bless, looney2n


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## wildoak (Aug 17, 2006)

I have spent a good bit of time reading this thread, as my faith ebbs and flows too. It seems the older I get the more I want to believe



, or perhaps the more difficult life becomes the more I need faith to see me through. There have been many heartfelt and thoughtful posts, I too am impressed with the sincerity and caring that comes through from everyone - religion can be a hot button so often.

rabbitsfizz's post spoke volumes to me -



> You have chosen your path to God and I am glad for you.
> 
> I have chosen my path to God, and it is as open and as true as yours.
> 
> ...


I do believe in God, I try every day to have faith and live accordingly, but I find it impossible to believe that a just God would not ultimately accept us on the basis of how we have lived our lives and treated others. What we name our faith, what language we speak it in, these things should be secondary.

I think organized religion has much to offer - it can be nurturing and supportive, it can be a source of great peace and joy. It also has been the cause of much suffering throughout history, even today. The horrible situation in the middle east, which is spilling out into the rest of the world, has its roots in religious fervor. We may disagree with their beliefs, but they believe just as strongly that "God" has spoken to them and they are justified in doing whatever it takes to impose their beliefs on the world.

Jan


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## KanoasDestiny (Aug 17, 2006)

Thank you everyone who answered my question, although it still confuses me some.



But I guess if we were supposed to know every little detail, there would be no confusion about it and it would explain things in a detailed way.


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## Nancy G (Aug 17, 2006)

Christians are all about Love and serving God. The "church" of a Christian can be in their heart (though God says to gather with other Christians for fellowship and encouragement).

Many regligions say, If they don`t agree with us, KILL THEM.

The Bible teaches us that God *does accept you,* as you are. You are saved by grace, through faith in Jesus Christ. It is not by works so none can boast. It isn`t what you do or how often you go to church but only through Jesus who died for our sins. God loves you and he has givven us the free gift of everlasting life. Eph 2:8-9

*Lisa F * and others going *through rough waters*, here is a devotional you might enjoy reading.

For anyone that receives hope and a renewed faith in God from the above posts, *Praise God*, for bringing you here!

Below is a part of the devotional I received, just today.

Helping others is not an option for those who follow Jesus.

One of the most compelling things about the accounts of Jesus' life in the Gospels is

His compassion for those who were hurting. Jesus loved people. Jesus had a heart

for those who were looking for hope. It does not take a Biblical scholar to understand

that as a child of God, helping others is the main job God has given us to do. The

scriptures are full of exhortations to help those in need, the poor, the widows, the lonely, the hurting.

While the needs of some people are obvious, we are also to be there

for those whose needs may not be as obvious, the *spiritually poor.*

You see, the spiritually poor are looking for answers to the questions of

life. When the challenges of this life become overwhelming, they are

looking for answers, looking for hope. A person in this state of mind, at

this place in their life is in desperate need of *a word from God.* Where

does that word come from? From the people God sends into their life,

You and Me!

Many of you today are facing great battles in your life.

Struggles with sin. Struggles on your job or at school. Struggles in your

family relationships, loss of loved ones. Struggles with your finances. Struggles with your

health. Let me share something with you that I learned years ago. It was

at the height of my personal struggles, when my *natural tendency* was to

focus solely on the battles I was facing, that I would seek out ways to

*serve God* by *helping someone* else.

Even though my battles didn't go away, they became *more manageable.* The

struggles weren't as difficult and answers to my problems came a* little*

easier. Why? I am convinced the Bible teaches us that if we will be about

our Father's business, He will be about our business. It is a spiritual

principle that works!!!

I want to challenge you today. Pray about who it is, God has put in your

life, who is hurting and *needing hope* in the midst of a difficult situation.

It may be someone in your family. Possibly a friend. Maybe someone at

church. It could be a person at your work or in your school. God has

strategically placed you in the life of someone today who is hurting and in

need of a word from God.

Once you have prayed and God shows you who it is, *reach out* to that person.

Have a cup of coffee or a bite to eat with them. Go do something together.

Get that person in a one-on-one situation and let them know they are not

alone in their battle, that they are not alone in whatever they are going

through. You are there to stand with them, to pray with them, and to help

them see victory. Often, it is not necessary to do more than just reach out

in love to that person who is hurting, for them to see and feel the love of

Christ coming from you. I have always said it is usually not what we say,

but what we do that shows the Christ in us to others.

God has given us each other because He never expected us to go through this

journey alone. We are to bear one another's burdens.

Today, reach out to that person God has placed on your heart. Show them the

love of Christ through your actions. Let them know they are not alone, that

someone cares for them. That can be the difference between victory and

defeat in their life, between them living without hope, and moving forward

victoriously over the problems in their life. Never forget, helping others

is not an option, it is what God has called His children to do.

And another ~

Will those who love Jesus and have put their faith and trust in Him continue

to be silent and hide in their "corner" leaving the lost and hurting

to satan and his lies, or will we go boldly, visibly, without shame and

compromise to reach the lost and hurting with His Truth and the hope

and love that is *only* found in *Jesus Christ*??? ! We get so distracted by

everything else that we have forgotten our number one job God has called us

to do, and that is to bring the lost, to faith in Jesus Christ.

Bill Keller.

OK, I`m done, I`ll be quiet now


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## Mona (Aug 17, 2006)

looney2n said:


> I'm new to lil beginnings and I have found everyone's opinions so helpful already. I am really impressed that the subject of religion didnt start a fire here. Good job everyone! Anyway, all I want to say is that when I am feeling like God has abandoned me, I remember the verse in the Bible that says that I am the apple of his eye! I also like to think of when my kids were small and just learning to walk. If they fell, we didnt turn away from them or scold them. We smiled, then lovingly picked them up and let them start again, one step at a time as we guided them. That is what I believe my Father in heaven is doing as I daily choose the path to take. He's always there..and He realizes that this life is hard, He doesnt get mad at us when we have times that we are angry with life or even Him. He patiently waits for us to turn to him. Well, that's my 2 cents. God Bless, looney2n



:aktion033: WOW...what a beautiful way to look at it, and how true it is! Thank you!


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## Ashley (Aug 17, 2006)

The only reason it didnt start a fight this time is because the non christians/ non beleivers have learned to stay out of it or they will get bashed.


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## nootka (Aug 17, 2006)

I don't feel like I "stayed out of it" as I consider myself non christian and non believer. Maybe I just don't know when I'm being "bashed" but I didn't get that from this.

I just think, for the most part, that if anyone felt they were getting thin-skinned they stepped back and just took a breath before posting again.





It's a touchy subject, obviously, if you look at the state of the world, and I do believe racial bigotry has its roots in religious prejudice, so I think everyone handled themselves pretty well.

I myself stepped out because I felt like I was repeating myself and the ones that agree with me already do/are, and I'm not trying to change anyone's beliefs, merely have them understand so they can feel better about it, or whatever, because I understand that they are happy with theirs.

I wish the world could be that way about many other life choices as well...it's a diverse world and that's a great thing.

Liz


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## runamuk (Aug 18, 2006)

Ashley said:


> The only reason it didnt start a fight this time is because the non christians/ non beleivers have learned to stay out of it or they will get bashed.


Actually I do not care if I get bashed because I am firm in my beliefs................I think this time around many chose to temper themselves and try to teach as opposed to preach



:



: sure is nicer listening to teachers sharing wisdom as opposed to dictators imposing beliefs



:


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## Miniv (Aug 18, 2006)

Ashley said:


> The only reason it didnt start a fight this time is because the non christians/ non beleivers have learned to stay out of it or they will get bashed.



Oh no, my dear Ashley........that was not very nice.

I am a Christian........And a believer.......and I don't know what you mean.

I would like to think it's because MOST of us know we are all basically good people, love our neighbors, love animals, and that's what is important.

End of subject.

MA


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 18, 2006)

I do not feel I have been bashed.

I do wish the Christians on here would , please, stop reiterating that the only way to God is through Jesus as that quite patently is not true.

Sorry , but Jesus just is NOT the only way, he just happens to be the way for _you_.

He is NOT the way for me, but I have God as truly and as deeply as do you.


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## kaykay (Aug 18, 2006)

patently is not true

the thing is jane its very much true to them just like your beliefs are true to you



theres not right or wrong. Just different



:

since this has gone so far off topic i think if someone wants to continue the discussion it should have a new thread. I myself love reading everyones thoughts as long as it stays friendly like this one.


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## capall beag (Aug 18, 2006)

In answer to your topic.

I am a Christian and have come to God & Christ my own way.

I was raised in a Christian home but found after leaving home MY life outside of the church was more important to me and more importantly NOT in sync with my 'beliefs' so I abandoned them for as long as I could



:

Then I felt guilty for my life and could not bring myself to go to church!

Then I realised God would forgive me so I forgave myself and then I didn't care what others might think!

My faith in God is always there but life is a journey. For me there are many ups and downs, I am easily tempted to waiver in my believes but I feel that God never leaves me I just wander off from time to time. When you are ready you will come back, I believe, and God will always welcome you back.

I have found my journey although not always smooth has made me a more open, understanding person who has more empathy for others and can forgive easily! I don't think everyones journey is supposed to be smooth, we are all made different for a reason.

Find peace, don't be harsh on yourself and I think your faith will come back to you.

I was raised to see things in a simple way Right and wrong.....Black and white!

My journey has shown me that this simply is not reality and God knows this too.

I always try to remind myself that "People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones!" , I don't intend to throw any stones because I know where I live



:



:

Alot of interesting points in thsi topic though!

Btw you have not wiavered too far if you are asking this Q



:



:


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## C & C Farms (Aug 18, 2006)

bcody said:


> I am just wondering if you have ever lost or waivered in your faith? If you have, how did you get it back? I am feeling a little lost and uncertain at the moment when it comes to God. Nothing major has happened to make me feel this way, I do not know know why I feel this way.



I receive a daily scripture sent to me every day and thought I'd share this with you. I also forward them to family and friends who also like to receive them every day. If you would like me to send them to you I'd be more than happy to them to you too, just PM me your e-mail address. I hope this helps some:

Proverbs 31:18

Her lamp does not go out at nightâ€¦â€¦â€¦..

2 Samuel 22:29

You are my lamp, O Lord!.......

Keeping the lamp burning, does not mean you have to stay up all nightâ€¦.it is anticipating how much oil it will need,â€¦â€¦ taking the time to fill the lampâ€¦â€¦. and trimming the wick as to not waste any oilâ€¦â€¦..we can compare this to our lives in the Lordâ€¦.who is our lampâ€¦..

In every persons life, there will inevitably come times of darknessâ€¦..these night watches are when our soul feels dark with confusion or hurt or depression or defeatâ€¦..youâ€™ve experienced themâ€¦.and so have Iâ€¦â€¦our soul may feel abandoned and lostâ€¦â€¦..butâ€¦â€¦we need to keep watchâ€¦â€¦we need to keep our inner lamp burning â€¦â€¦even if it is dimâ€¦and sputtering with the last drops of fuelâ€¦â€¦.

The inextinguishable lamp represents our inner lampâ€¦â€¦the fire in our soulâ€¦â€¦what is that fire?......the Spirit of the living Godâ€¦â€¦.

Our love for the Lord and His Wordâ€¦â€¦rekindles our flameâ€¦â€¦.we have to be prepared with the fuel from Godâ€™s Wordâ€¦..the second part of 2 Samuel 22:29 says, â€œThe Lord turns my darkness into lightâ€â€¦â€¦â€¦..Godâ€™s love for us will turn our defeated, sputtering lamps into a â€¦â€¦renewed full flame!

A full fledged soul-love for the Lordâ€¦..requires daily preparation for times of darknessâ€¦â€¦.Your light will be inextinguishable in youâ€¦.when your spirit is full of His fuelâ€¦â€¦.


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## Miniv (Aug 18, 2006)

capall beag said:


> In answer to your topic.
> 
> I am a Christian and have come to God & Christ my own way.
> 
> ...




Lovely post........Thank you.

MA


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## irishmini (Aug 18, 2006)

i do not believe in a god!!! i am an athiest.........but i am a good person... and to me thats what matters in life!! if you are happy with yourslf and the way you behave towards others..... how you would like to be treated!!i know of people who are on the friont row at church every week, but wouldnt think twice about stabbing you in the back... but they say they are christians...

i hate religion.... i grew up with biggoted people..... who say they love god but would easily kill a person who had different religious beliefs... thats a cross i have to bear... but i grew awy from it..............and lucky for me, i grew to see the truth,.....


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## KanoasDestiny (Aug 18, 2006)

Nevermind, I answered my own question.


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## runamuk (Aug 19, 2006)

irishmini said:


> i do not believe in a god!!! i am an athiest.........but i am a good person... and to me thats what matters in life!! if you are happy with yourslf and the way you behave towards others..... how you would like to be treated!!i know of people who are on the friont row at church every week, but wouldnt think twice about stabbing you in the back... but they say they are christians...
> 
> i hate religion.... i grew up with biggoted people..... who say they love god but would easily kill a person who had different religious beliefs... thats a cross i have to bear... but i grew awy from it..............and lucky for me, i grew to see the truth,.....


And you are not alone........and yet your disbelief does not in and of itself make you a non-religious or non spiritual person......here lies the beauty of it all..............if you step outside on a brisk fall eve and see the stars and even for one moment realize there must be more........you do not have to give it a name.......but the idea of something more than yourself......something much more than mere humans on earth.......the pure pettyness that Man is above all else................that is more attuned to "whatever it is" than any church, religion, gospel, etc..............that is communing with the true source of all that is...............the disbelief, the beauty, the sheer beauty...........that to me is what it is all about



: ......it has nothing to do with what so and such church has to say.......it has everything to do with feeling and knowing deep inside MY soul that this is love pure unadulterated love.......love of man, love of other species, love of species I may not have met ........it is all about love ...........and we aren't talkin puppy love from highschool..........I am speaking of the type of love that is so pervasive that you even feel it for your worst enemies and the most horrific criminals.......that love that encompasses all that lives and breathes..........and then you look at the stars again and stand there in complete awe at the expansiveness of it all



:



:



:

I ask how many here would take in a leper? honestly would you do this? and criminals? and the poorest of the poor? Well I would help and take in any of these ........so unless you are willing to actually put on christs shoes ?....?......?

just remember that it is better to walk the talk than preach and make millions or convert by brainwashing



:

I stand for no religion but do stand for spirituality and the greater good for all.............blessed be............with harm to none............


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## nootka (Aug 19, 2006)

Very poignantly put, runamuk...and very similarly to how I feel.

I tend to believe that those that have found this individual and very personal "faith" to be the ones with the right idea as it shows the integrity and ability to "lead" in a situation that is very difficult for most to do. I feel, for my experience, that I am stronger and much more empowered than I ever felt when I was in church or hearing someone quote passages from a book about someone that I didn't believe existed or was very distorted and exaggerated for whatever purpose (my own personal theory is that in a time of civilization when not many, if any, read or had good communication other than the spoken word, religion and superstitions were used to control the masses, the earliest forms of government. Fear and guilt were powerful, and it was effective, also easy to manipulate and evolve to create government within government and it's not through. Look where we are now...but we as a society have to outgrow this if we are to make better decisions for ourselves. I may be wrong, but until each person realizes the responsibilites they have towards themselves as well as their world, and endeavors to do right by them/each other, we're in for being led around by the nose by these people, the ones that can gather together the "most" followers will inevitably have control of the world's resources).

Liz


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 19, 2006)

Yeah, Rori!!

I love that passage from Corinthians, it says it all for me.

If only more Christians would actually "Walk the walk" not just "Talk the Talk" .

Christianity is about love, is it??

Take a long, HARD look at the Christian world today.

I'm sorry, I am not criticising those of you who truly believe and truly try to follow the "path" but PLEASE open your eyes, do not follow blindly, look where you are going.

Quite often, lately, we have seen congregations led, blindly, down the wrong paths.

Listen to what your Pastors say and ARGUE with them if you do not agree, do not take scripture as the ABSOLUTE truth, it is an interpretation.

We were born with free will, we have a God given right and responsibility to use it.

"And it harm NO-ONE" how often could Christianity claim that??


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## KanoasDestiny (Aug 19, 2006)

Can I ask...to be considered spiritual, rather than religious...what does that mean? I do not profess to a religion, and when I think about going to church, it's a really hard thing to do, even though in my heart I want to have the best relationship with God as possible.

I am Christian, but I don't attend a christian church. I did once, and I found so much I disagreed with. For one...they had "God bless America" and "God bless our troops" everywhere. I don't have a problem with this anywhere else but at church. In the house of God, it should read "God bless everyone" as we are all equal in God's eyes, and America is no better than any other country to him. Also, there are a lot of innocent people - Christian or not, dying over in the other countries because of our troops. I am patriotic to a point, but for some reason, the thought of the innocent dying doesn't appeal to me as something God would be ok with. This is only my opinion, and I know that a lot of people will disagree. It isn't meant to start debate, just something that I wanted to share that makes it hard for me to attend a church. Not to mention, the majority of preachers or pasters get paid to teach the word of God. To me...this should be something that one doesn't get paid for. It should be out of their heart that they do this...as everyone was commanded to do so by God. How is it right for them to take the money that is collected for the church, and spend it on thier own earthly possessions, such as their bills, cars, house. I just get so confused.


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## looney2n (Aug 19, 2006)

In my opinion, we need to focus our attention on God and what His will for us is, hence, the living word of God, the Bible. Too many churches pick and choose what they want out of the Bible and I believe that is 'religion'. God's word tells us that man will always fail us so anyone who goes to a church and just does what the person up in front tells us, whether that is a pastor, priest, or whatever, is setting themselves up to fail. We are all human and that means we ALL will sin at times. But if we focus on God's will and our desire in our heart is to do His will, He knows that and he will lead and bless us for it. In the Bible, I think in Matthew 23, it talks of the Pharisees who always focused on the RULES and the outward appearances. In that chapter it says that Jesus was angry with them because God looks at our hearts and not just on good deeds, ect.

I had some really bad experiences with churches while growing up and got to a point that I found I didnt trust ANYONE. When I was young and impressionable, I put people in my church up on a pedistal, thinking that just because they claimed christianity, they were different some how. But eventually I found that was wrong. Too many people 'play church' for social status or whatever. They go to church and appear to be 'religious' or 'christian' but then commit immoral acts or sin when not in that 'role'. So I decided that I would worship God where ever I was and seek Him in prayer and reading the Bible. That worked very well but I felt that I still needed a church. I believe God looked at my heart and led me to one that was wonderful. I needed to 'be fed' the word of God and the services at that church turned out to be more in tune with today instead of all of the repeated prayers and such. Please understand that I am not saying repeated prayers and rituals are wrong, they are just wrong for what I need. I guess what I am saying is that what works for me is to always keep an open mind and always realize that 'people' are human and will always fail you. If you go to a church and find that you like it, don't expect to find perfection in the people that are there, whether they are leaders or followers, they are human. Just focus on God and He will guide you if that is what you seek. You may never find a church that you agree with, I didnt, but I found one that is very close. As long as it's a place where people are real and they are trying to find the truth, it works for me. In my opinion, if you believe in God, you really have to believe in saten as well. There is a battle going on to see who will win your soul. So if saten can convince me that I must find a church that fits perfectly with my believes where no one will disappoint me, he's won, because that place does not exist.

I agree that people should not be paid to teach the word of God. But you have to admit if it was me or you up there teaching full time as well as remain available for counseling 'the flock', we would need to have an income coming from somewhere to make ends meet. I think that is what the elders, or board members are for. They all must decide what the money is used for. Somewhere in the Bible it does instruct the churches to bless the teachers with gifts of money so they may continue to focus on the teaching and not have to work doing something else. Anyway, I didnt mean to ramble but I can really relate to what you're saying so I thot I'd reply. God Bless, Looney2n


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## KanoasDestiny (Aug 20, 2006)

Thank you so much Barnbum and Looney2n. I think you both offered opinions that I may not have thought of before, and I truly appreciate it.

I know that it is true that everyone needs to make a living, but I still find it hard to justify people earning money for teaching God's word. I know of a church where the elders make no money what so ever...they have regular day jobs, and offer the evenings/weekends to teach God's word without monetary gain. If counseling is needed, it is after the congregation, again with no money involved. I do understand that most people are not so priviledged to divide their attention in this way or do feel they should be rewarded for their works. Thank you again for your responses.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 20, 2006)

Again I state my opinion.

The Bible is NOT the word of God, and can in NO way be even interpreted as the "living" word of God.

It is, at best "Chinese Whispers" of what some man once heard God say to him.

It has been handed down by word of mouth, written out, interpreted, changed to fit whatever the teaching of the day was and then interpreted again. As I said you can actually SEE the bits the Monks put in or words they did not understand so slapped in the one they thought was right.

Remember by the time the Monks got their hands on they scrolls Latin was no longer spoken as a language _except by Monks!!_

They could pretty much write down what they wanted and NO-ONE on pain of death, could argue with them.

To give one very small example of this, vellum, on which they wrote in those days was horrendously expensive.

Getting a Monk to write something out was horrendously expensive.

When the charter of my town- the Cathedral City of St. Alban was written up, that is what it was supposed to say.

The Monk wrote "The Cathedral City of St. Alban_s_ " on the charter and it was actually _cheaper_ to change the name of the town than it was to have the Charter rewritten, and thus I now live in St.Albans, not St.Alban!!!!

Are you still going to insist that the Bible is the "living" word of God??

When, if a Monk made a mistake, it was left in as it was too expensive to correct it??

When printing first started the same applied- if a mistake was made and not noticed at proof reading, it was left in.

How many times have you come across an obvious mistake in a book you are reading??

Or just something you _know_ not to be true??

Do you assume the writer was correct and everything you know is wrong, just because it is written in a book??

Or do you exercise the free will God made us with and dismiss it and move on??

If you accept the Bible blindly you are_ not_ exercising your free will you are acting like sheep.

Question _everything_, accept nothing blindly.


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## C & C Farms (Aug 20, 2006)

Beautiful Karla!



: :aktion033:

Just wanted to share this poem, its one of my favorites:

"Footprints in the Sand"

One night a man had a dream. He dreamed

he was walking along the beach with the LORD.

Across the sky flashed scenes from his life.

For each scene he noticed two sets of

footprints in the sand: one belonging

to him, and the other to the LORD.

When the last scene of his life flashed before him,

he looked back at the footprints in the sand.

He noticed that many times along the path of

his life there was only one set of footprints.

He also noticed that it happened at the very

lowest and saddest times in his life.

This really bothered him and he

questioned the LORD about it:

"LORD, you said that once I decided to follow

you, you'd walk with me all the way.

But I have noticed that during the most

troublesome times in my life,

there is only one set of footprints.

I don't understand why when

I needed you most you would leave me."

The LORD replied:

"My child, my precious child,

I love you and I would never leave you.

During your times of trial and suffering,

when you see only one set of footprints,

it was then that I carried you."


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## mountain_waif (Aug 20, 2006)

.....


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## Nancy G (Aug 20, 2006)

I wasn`t going to post again as this kind of debate usually gets us nowhere but after seeing the last few posts I too decided it best to STAND UP FOR JESUS!! :aktion033: Thanks to all who have done this, openly on the forum. Although we will never change the beliefe of others, we CAN share what we belive and give others hope and the Truth.

If others have no shame in telling people God doesn't exist, how proud

should we be in telling people *God is real*? If they openly and defiantly

live their lives in rebellion to the Truth of God's Word, how much more open

and visible should you live your life in following the Truth of the Bible?

If they can openly mock our Lord, *why can't we* just as openly stand up for

Him?




:

Those who hate Jesus and deny the Christian faith are never going to be

silenced and they are not going away. The question is ~

Will those who love Jesus and have put their faith and trust in Him continue

to be silent and hide in their "corner" leaving the lost and hurting

to satan and his lies, or will we go boldly, visibly, without shame and

compromise to reach the lost and hurting with His Truth and the hope

and love that is* only found* in Jesus Christ??? ! We get so distracted by

everything else that we have forgotten our number one job God has called us

to, and that is to bring the lost to faith in Jesus Christ.

The world lies and tells people that it has what they are looking for and

the answers to their problems. What they offer is the temporal pleasures of

the flesh and this world. People eventually figure out there has to be

more. The "more" they are looking for is only found in a relationship with

*Jesus Christ.* We who know Christ have got to be *as bold * as those who hate

Christ in taking our message to others Rather than wasting our time trying to silence those who hate the Lord, we should be busy in getting the

Truth out to the very same people they reach each day. We know in the

end the *Truth will remain standing!*

God HAS given us a free choice, AND a free gift. You CAN



: be in heaven with him one day ~~~~~~~~~~~~ OR NOT! Your choice. God Bless each and everyone of you.

And yes, this IS my last post and final word on my belief.



:


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## Ashley (Aug 20, 2006)

Most know I dont beleive in God. I have a funny way of things. I dont beleive in heaven and I dont beleive in heck.

I also have a hard time with a few things christians preach. The somethings people do or are God would not except. But then if that is the case then why would God make the person who they are if he would not except them for themselves?

When I have people jump on me for my beliefs that very religious that is the question I throw at them, Granted its always in more detail but didnt feel like typing it all out. FUnny how they never have answer and seem to shut up fast.

If I beleived in god you cant tell me he would net except me and everybody else in this world for who they are considering he created us, just because the bible says he cant.


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## C & C Farms (Aug 20, 2006)

Nancy - :aktion033: :aktion033:

---------------------------------------------

Matthew 5

(The Beatitudes)

1Now when he saw the crowds, he went up on a mountainside and sat down. His disciples came to him, 2and he began to teach them saying:

3"Blessed are the poor in spirit,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

4Blessed are those who mourn,

for they will be comforted.

5Blessed are the meek,

for they will inherit the earth.

6Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,

for they will be filled.

7Blessed are the merciful,

for they will be shown mercy.

8Blessed are the pure in heart,

for they will see God.

9Blessed are the peacemakers,

for they will be called sons of God.

10Blessed are those who are persecuted because of righteousness,

for theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11"Blessed are you when people insult you, persecute you and falsely say all kinds of evil against you because of me. 12Rejoice and be glad, because great is your reward in heaven, for in the same way they persecuted the prophets who were before you.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 20, 2006)

No, sorry, I shall never accept that the Bible can be the word of God, it is not a physical possibility, it just is not.

I accept it and the Q'ran as useful guides but also as historical anachronisms , the WORD of God, no not possible, not at all.??

Some of the texts are beautiful, God inspired, certainly.

I do love to read some, and I do think that these books were, on the whole, written with a good path in life in mind, but it just is not possible for them to have been written by God- and nowhere in the bible does it claim that this is so.

The Books are written by PEOPLE.

The New Testament is written by PEOPLE- named PEOPLE, everyday people like you and me.

Inspired to teach a good way of life, without doubt, ready and in a lot of cases actually did die for their beliefs.

Good people, no doubt, but speaking their own truths, as they believed them.

No more.

Even the New Testament was not written in it's first draft until over five hundred years after the death of Christ- very, very, VERY long memories??


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## looney2n (Aug 20, 2006)

:aktion033: I applaud all of those standing up for Christ. It is a touchy subject but it has always been. Why is that? Even tho we all come from different backgrounds with different upbringing and beliefs, when it comes down to the bottom line, it kind of smacks us in the face! When we die, where do we go? Is it something we don't worry about and just let life and death happen? Or is it something we SAY we don't wonder or worry about and when it's time to die, IF given time, we all of a sudden realize we DO care? Or is it something we CAN humbly face now and investigate it to see if we actually do have a choice of heaven or heck? It's a humbling experience but scripture tells me that 'God resists the proud but gives grace to the humble'. (James 4:6) I guess it comes down to how open we are to the possibilities of what is truth, or COULD be truth.

I am a person who has choosen to believe that Christ literally died for ALL of my sins, to believe that He is Lord, confessing my sins and realizing that He accepts me just the way I am but with a heart after His will, how can I loose? But if I take the opposite view, and if there is no God, no big deal. BUT, if there is, it will be a big deal. Not that unbelievers really care, but *I* choose to not take the chance. When my time to die is here, I am looking forward to being with my Lord. Not because of who I am, but because of 'WHOSE' I am! I am HIS child. All of you are but He gives us a will to choose. I find when looking at life and death, that I am not afraid of death but more afraid of life and all of ITS uncertainties. Faith is the substance of things hoped for, the evidence of things not seen. (Heb 11:1) The faith that Christs followers have will carry us through. He promises that he will NEVER leave or forsake us and he also tells us He will never give us more than we can handle. To me, believing those promises makes life soooo much easier to face. Believing His promises in the LIVING word of God makes EVERYTHING easier. It's like taking a trip. Do you want to take it in a car that is a piece of junk and take your chances, or do you want to use the Caddy.



: God Bless.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 20, 2006)

I choose to believe that mostly, whatever we believe will happen, is what does happen after death, to us,.... probably



.

If you believe in Jesus as your Lord and would not be happy without him then , of course, that is where you will go.

I would not be happy that way, nor comfortable, and I cannot for the life of me see Ashley lasting two minutes (sorry Ash!!)

Whatever makes you happy, since heaven is about being happy.

There is no "chance" here, no-one that does not believe in Christ as saviour will be turned away for their lack of belief, that is not the way God works, whether you believe it or not.

You are not going to go to heaven because you believe in Jesus anymore than I will be turned away because I do not.

There is room for everyone, Hindus and their myriad faces of God included!!

Buddhists, Muslims (except the ones that believe that murdering people in the name of God gets them a ticket ot heaven- Oh BOY will they ever get a shock- I hope they believe in re-incarnation because they have a heavy learning curve ahead of them!!!) Jews,Hindus ,Atheists, Agnostics, Wiccans et al, we are ALL God's children.


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## Nancy G (Aug 20, 2006)

: Something to lighten the mood here :bgrin

A priest, a minister and a guru sat discussing the best positions for prayer, while a telephone repairman worked nearby.

"Kneeling is definitely the best way to pray," the priest said.

"No," said the minister. "I get the best results standing with my hands outstretched to Heaven."

"You're both wrong," the guru said. "The most effective prayer position is lying down on the floor."

The repairman could contain himself no longer. "Hey, fellas," he interrupted. "The best prayin' I ever did was when I was hangin' upside down from a telephone pole."



:


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## looney2n (Aug 20, 2006)

LOL



:


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 21, 2006)

Hi Nancy, As you say, I am sure you can find an answer to every question asked of you, in the bible so would you answer this question? Why are stories, of the same event, told differently within the bible? Did God tell these men to write them differently or did they just do it? I am sure if you believe the bible to be of the truth you must have questioned for yourself, many things that it says. People can't help but notice the contradictions in the text ......an event can be told in a particular order but later it can state

that the same event happened in a different order. It might say there were two of something in one place and elswhere it will state there was 14 of that same thing! It may say the Moabites did something, and later it says that it was the Midianites who did it!! Check out the two different stories in the bible of the creation of Earth!! Why, if God is the author of the bible would there not be consistency in what is written? Thanks, Mary


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## stormo41 (Aug 21, 2006)

Yes I have had this happen to me, My family stopped going to church when I was younger and I took conformation classes when I was 12-13 (i think ). After that I never thought much about it, just stopped going, then when high school came I discovered that no matter what if "he" is really is up there he should judge me not for spending my Sunday at church, or giving the chruch 10% of my income, but rather for the person I am. I may not go to church and I may doubt that he really is up there, But I am a good person. Of course I have my down falls, harsh langauge amoung those who don't mind (I might slip here and there




: ), A bad temper that i have calmed down in the past few years but it surfaces every so often i am half Italian after all :lol: . Gernraly speeking I'm a nice person, I help when and where I can, I believe in strong a family and I never once in this day and age did I fall into smoking or dugs or drinking. I am working hard with my photography and the education I need to make a living off of it. I don't see anything wrong with the way I act that should banish to me to the underworld if it is a real place, and if I do go so what I'm living my life right now not my death.

I hope you will see things the same way, I am not telling you to give up faith, but rather to take a break if you need to. I think you can have faith with out doing all the sunday rituals and following every rule. I remember the paster telling us that from the moment you are born you have sinned in the eye of god. I hope that if such a god is real that he can over look the sins i have commented and see the good things I have done in my life, how I care for people close to me at all costs, and most of all how I sand up for myself. If god id out there then we must be on a levle where he knows I mean well, and maybe one day he will call to me and on that day i will know for sure that he is out there looking down on me and watching over me.

-Vanessa


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## Ojai Minis (Aug 21, 2006)

I know of nowhere, where it says we will inheret the heavens (other than the 144,000 that shall reside by Christ's side).

I am not trying to start any kind of debate, just looking for an explaination. Thank you.

Who are the 144,000 people?How are they chosen? I find this topic fasinating






Liz V.


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## Ashley (Aug 21, 2006)

Rabbit im not sure how to take that.....but ok.

As for the rest



:


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## looney2n (Aug 21, 2006)

Karla, it's obvious that you really seek for the answers. God is using you and that is awesome. I can relate to the fact that there are a lot differences in the Bible, but after reading the apostles renditions of each ones experiences, then putting them together, you're right, they mesh and the ending of the story is the same. I know that I have compiled a file CABINET of things that I would like Him to clear up for me when I see the Lord. But again, that is where faith comes in to play. Thank you for your dedication to helping others. God is really gonna bless you BIG! :aktion033:


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 21, 2006)

No it doesn't help me understand why God would not state all he wanted said in the same order! I do understand that different men wrote their version of an event but IF it is God's word then I do logically think it should all be said the same and therer would not be contradictions. This is why it is difficult for some people to believe what the bible says or that it is God's word. True, there is meaning within but it was men who wrote the words and the words may not be what God meant them to be and we have to be careful of that. Yes, two different people could be told the same thing and each hear it differently but to truly believe something there has to be validity, for me, to believe it. After all God did give us a mind to think with and to logically figure things out for ourselves. Do we believe in what some men wrote or do we believe what comes directly from God to us? I would much rather have a close relationship with my creator and listen to him than to listen to someone that is not sure of things ......Teach of love rather than teach what men who didn't all get the story the same. Even your bible study programs are only interpretations of what yet another person perception of the bible. I do think discussions of this nature are interesting because each can give their opinion of what they believe and no one can actually say it is wrong because only god knows. God does not give life and then not give back to the person who lives it a homecoming. We are not to judge the other person ...our job is to live the life that god gave us. You know I wouldn't mind meeting Hitler in heaven at all because I would like to know why god chose the life for him that he had to live. JMHO Mary

"I am not a Revelations reader because I just don't get the symbolism. My husband loves reading it and trying to put the pieces together.



I took a class in it from a former pastor, but he was way smarter than the students and everything he said wen over our heads in a hurry. He was passionate about it, but jeepers it's just too much for me to grasp.

Sooo, that's why I'm going to copy what it ways in the study part of my Bible. My Bible is a Life Application Study Bible. (I also love my Women's Devotional one). Here's what it says: "Chapter 13 described the onslaught of evil that will occur when Satan and his helpers control the world. Chapter 14 gives a glimpse into eternity to show believers what awaits them if they endure. The Lamb is the Messiah. Mount Zion, often another name for Jerusalem, the capital of Israel, is contrasted with the worldly empire. The 144,000 represent believers who have endured persecutions on earth and now are ready to enjoy the eternal benefits and blessings of life with God forever. The three angels contrast the destiny of believers with that of unbelievers."

Okay, I'd better copy Revelations 6-10 for you because that's where the angel part is. I have to admit the words and images are unsettling to me. Makes my heart beat a little faster, you know?

6-10 "Then I saw another angle flying in midair, and he had the eternal gospel to proclaim to those who live on the earth--to every nation, tribe, language and people. He said in a loud voice, 'Fear God and give him glory, because the hour of his judgment has come. Worship him who made the heavens, the earth, the sea and the springs of water. (8) A second angel followed and said, 'Fallen! Fallen is Babylon the Great, which made all the nations drink the maddening wine of her adulteries.' (9) A third angel followed them and said in a loud voice: "If anyone worships the beast and his image and receives his mark on the forehead or on the hand (my addition---there's a lot in here about the mark of the beast--no one knows exactly what it is--but some think it may have to do with money and how things are bought--that unless you have the mark you will not be able to purchase food--but in order to get the mark you have to deny God), he, too, will drink of the wine of God's fury which has been poured full strength into the cup of his wrath."

Here's what the study part says: Some believe that this is a final, worldwide appeal to all people to recognize the one true God. No one will have the excuse of never hearing God's truth. Others, however, see this as an announcement of judgment rather that as an appeal. The people of the world have had their chance to proclaim their allegiance to God, and now God's great judgment is about to begin. If you are reading this, you have already heard God's truth. You know that God's final judgment will not be put off forever. Have you joyfully received the everlasting Good News? Have you confessed your sins and trusted Christ to save you? If so, you have nothing to fear from God's judgment. The Judge of all the earth is your Savior!

I hope that's helping some who had questions on that part.



> Why are stories, of the same event, told differently within the bible? Did God tell these men to write them differently or did they just do it? I am sure if you believe the bible to be of the truth you must have questioned for yourself, many things that it says. People can't help but notice the contradictions in the text ......an event can be told in a particular order but later it can state


Mary, my pastor has studied this so much--the writer of the books, etc. I'll email her this question because her answer will be more technical than mine. For me, there's never a contradiction that changes the outcome of the story. If it's an order--something minor that doesn't alter the main idea of the story, then it doesn't matter to me. It's the same as several folks watching an event but each telling it from their own perspective. In my Bible there's a page that compares the stories in Matthew, Mark , Luke and John and explains the different details. It's nothing that's caused me to question what they say is true--and they all get to the same end. Does that help?

There are parts of the Bible that contradict to me, such as one part says all those who believe in Jesus will be saved and their sins forgiven. But then in other parts (I should look them up but the dishes are waiting...and my daughter needs a ride to work soon) it says all Christians will be judged. So, I asked Pastor. She said we are all forgiven, but she feels God will chat with each of us about our decisions during our earthly life. She says she'll be with Him awhile for she's done enough to give them plenty to talk about.





During SS this spring I learned another interpretation of the vineyard story...and our pastor said she does not like the idea that if Hitler happened to confess and become a Christian before his death, that she does not like the idea of him sitting next to her at any heavenly banquets....

So, all believers have questions...even the pastors. but the faith doesn't let the questions steer us away...just dive into the Bible again.

And Dr Dobson says we are NOT supposed to understand everything. We just have to stick the unanswered questions in a folder and ask them when we get to the other side. Again, faith comes into play here, in accepting there will not be answers to all our questions. Marty has some big ones.

I've got lots to do for a bit, but I'll check in later to see if all this is helping or a hindrance. :lol:


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 21, 2006)

Whatever the Bible says, a book written by other men, other humans, not God, even though I do not believe and will never believe that Jesus is my saviour, I shall not be barred from Heaven.

That idea is ludicrous in the extreme and totally unacceptable.

Jesus is NOT the only way ot God.

He IS the way you have chosen, and I respect your choice.


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 21, 2006)

I too believe no person will be turned away from God....he is accepting regardless of how rebellious he made us. If you believe what the Bible says then one has to believe that He did intend Adam and Eve to rebel, otherewise he would not have made it possible. Why would God create them in his devine image and then forbid them the fruit whose attraction would give them devine power? [ the Bible does say that man was created in his image] ? Would God share some devine quality with humans, only [He didn't create other creatures in his image] and then treat them as subordinates? According to what the Bible says, God told Adam and Eve to rule the other creatures, and then he communicates with them basically with commands! Can we really be surprised when we find out that Adam and Eve did disobey when the scene was set for them to disobey? Adam and Eve had no reason not to believe the serpent for God had told them they ruled the other creatures and they had no experience at all against dealing with evil which only God could have allowed into the garden. Sin didn't even originate on earth, according to the Bible, because it says it was a fallen angel that first sinned. Just something to think about and yes this is only one interpretation of something the Bible says. If every Christian even believed the same there wouldn't be hundresd of Christian churches!! Woudl love to hear some other opinions about how they interpret the words of the Bible written by men who could not even agree on what they thought God told them.



: Mary


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## Ojai Minis (Aug 21, 2006)

barnbum said:


> Okay, the 144,000 verse is in Revelation 14:1-4. It reads "Then I looked, and there before me was the Lamb, standing on Mount Zion, and with him 144,000 who had his name and his Father's name written on their foreheads. And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and like a loud peal of thunder. The sound I heard was like that of harpists playing their harps. And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. No one could learn the song except the 144,000 who had been redeemed from the earth. These are those who did not defile themselves with women, for they kept themselves pure. They follow the Lamb wherever he goes. They were purchased from among men and offered as first fruits to God and the Lamb. No lie was found in their mouths; they are blameless."


So this sounds like only 144,000 men got to stay? And what? The rest went where? I'm not trying to start anything as I do find religion fasinating, but this kind of stuff just doesn't sound right. What if there were more than 144,000 men who had not defiled themselves with women? And what does that mean, defiled? And why just men? This are how I'm interperting this. These are the kinds of things that just make it all sound silly (I'm not trying to put down anyone who believes) I am not a Christian but I have my own spirtiual beliefs. I try to treat others as I would like to be treated and that if there is a god, I don't have to be Christian to go to Heaven or be reincarnated or whatever kind of good after life there may be. I do not believe in He-ll or Satan and I refuse to live in fear of what might be if I'm not a "Christian". I find it really sad that people kill in the name of religion. I find it sad that even though it might not be said out loud but unless one is "saved" we are judged and going to he-ll. So, to me that is judgement, in the name of religion. Again, it's all just fasinating to me. I have checked out all kinds of different religions as I felt I "needed" religion to be happy but I have realized that I am my own God and I make me happy and if I live a life that feels right, good and clean to me, I'm good to go to whatever might be the afterlife. I truly respect those and their beliefs. I know that great comfort is found in whatever religion one believes in. And I'm all for that. But I refuse to go on blind faith. I do believe in God but probably not in the way a lot do. My belief is that when I go, I will get to be with my beloved animals once again.



: My dad's belief is that you die, you get put in the ground and the worms eat you



He seems to be fine with that.

Respectfully,

Liz V.


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## Miniv (Aug 22, 2006)

This is a good example...... How can anyone take every word in the Bible literally??? (Science has proven that.)

How can anyone deny that the Bible wasn't penned by human beings (MEN) with personal religious agendas? (Pork is not soiled and neither are women!)

However, no one can deny that there are many values and special truths within the Writings that transcend all cultures. No matter whether one is Christian or not, they should not be discounted.

I read the Bible and value it. I am a Christian. But I do not read it with Blinders on.

I am also a student and keep an open mind. I have read other teachings written by other cultures and am thrilled by the similarities. I have also read translated writings of scriptures that were editted from our present Bible.

God gave us a mind to explore with. God gave us gifts to use. And Jesus is quoted as saying -- whatever I can do, you can do.........and he did some amazing things.

MA


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## ChrystalPaths (Aug 22, 2006)

God gave us a mind to explore with. God gave us gifts to use. And Jesus is quoted as saying -- whatever I can do, you can do.........and he did some amazing things.

MA

I have stayed away from this topic, but have found it facinating and am in great awe of you all for keeping it civil and interesting. The one quote that has the most impact for me is this one above by MaryAnn. I think, in a nut shell, it says it all.


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## Nancy G (Aug 22, 2006)

I got this in an e-mail today. it is beautiful!

He is light, love, longevity, and Lord.

He is goodness, Kindness, Gentleness, and God.

He is Holy, Righteous, mighty, powerful, and pure.

His ways are right,

His word is eternal,

His will is unchanging, and His mind is on me.

He is Jesus my Savior,

He is my guide, and He is my peace!

He is my Joy,

He is my comfort,

He is *my * Lord, and He rules my life!

I serve Him because His bond is love,

His burden is light, and His goal for me is abundant life.

I follow Him because He is the wisdom of the wise,

the power of the powerful,

the ancient of days, the ruler of rulers, the leader of leaders, the overseer of the overcomers, and is to come. And if that seems impressive to you, try this for size.

His goal is a relationship with ME!

He will never leave me,

never forsake me,

never mislead me,

never forget me,

never overlook me and

never cancel my appointment in His appointment book!

When I fall, He lifts me up!

When I fail, He forgives!

When I am weak, He is strong!

When I am lost, He is the way!

When I am afraid, He is my courage!

When I stumble, He steadies me!

When I am hurt, He heals me!

When I am broken, He mends me!

When I am blind, He leads me!

When I am hungry, He feeds me!

When I face trials, He is with me!

When I face persecution, He shields me!

When I face problems, He comforts me!

When I face loss, He provides for me!

When I face Death, *He carries me Home*! :aktion033: :aktion033:



:



: :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## Ojai Minis (Aug 22, 2006)

Miniv said:


> However, no one can deny that there are many values and special truths within the Writings that transcend all cultures. No matter whether one is Christian or not, they should not be discounted.
> 
> I am also a student and keep an open mind. I have read other teachings written by other cultures and am thrilled by the similarities. I have also read translated writings of scriptures that were editted from our present Bible.
> 
> ...


I have learned from the spiritual teachings I have lightly studied is that the end message is pretty much the same. Love is the key. Forgivness, (especially of yourself), and that miracles can happen. And not to just "Christians". I think we all have the ability to do amazing things if we set out minds to it And if it's with the help of God, Jesus or Buddha or whatever, that is awesome!

Liz V.


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## lyn_j (Aug 22, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt]Ive been reading and waiting for dirrection to post again. I really liked this part of one post because it really fits.[/SIZE]

"Whew! I am so glad I do not share that opinion and that I can embrace it as my guidance to Godly living and the way to eternal life. Do we need to be careful to use the words in context, to understand to what group of people the words were written and their circumstances at the time? Yes. But, it is and always will be the living word of God to me. For if I didn't trust it for answers to how to live my life, who would I trust? Scary thought."

I have had to trust and believe and obey the scriptures so many times in my life and because I have I have experienced Peace that passeth all understanding, healings to both my body and soul and clear direction in my life that was not given before I gave my life over to Jesus and his will. Until and unless you have that love of Jesus and his gift of the Holy Spirit to live in your heart, you will not be able to understand the things that Karla, Nancy and others are trying to explain. We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God. He is perfect and holy and in mans natural state we are unworthy of being in His presence. Thats why God invented GRACE. Gods Riches At Christs Expense. I know He lives because He lives in me and I can love and care for others in His name. Those who say the Bible isnt true have not read it thru, seen the prophesies thant have been and are being fulfilled even as we speak. These are glorious times for believers because we are seeing the fulfillment of the last of the prophesies before our very eyes! Rejoice and look up for your redemption draws nigh! Karla is a great teacher.....she is in the perfect profession!!! Your class at school is very lucky ! I cant read my Bible now because of my vision and to go online and have the computer read to me while Im trying to post here proved too difficult. Im thankful that God has used Karla and Nancy and Looney to get the message clearly stated.

I can only speak from my experience and tell you that Jesus is the living Christ, The Messiah, the Lord of my life because His love and light have been evidanced in my life, the longer I love Him, the sweeter He grows the song says and that is true!

Regarding the Apostle's different take on the same situations, Luke was a physician and what you read in his Gospel is more"clinical" or visceral, more details, John was Jesus best friend and his Gospel is more emotional. Peter was a hot head... he loved the Lord with a passion that the others may have lacked and it sometimes got him in trouble like in the garden when he cut off the soldiers ear and Christ replaced it. He was fretful and thats why he denied Jesus three times. Each man wrote from his perspective so that all men everywhere would see a part of themself in one of their renditions and realize that Christ died for all... not just the ones like John or Paul or whoever.

This has been a very civil and interesting thread.... Nice to see we can all still discuss without tearing each other down as was said.

Lyn


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## looney2n (Aug 22, 2006)

*VERY* well said Lyn J. That is the type of 'stick your neck out' attitude that we, as followers of Christ, are expected to show, God Bless you *BIG*


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## Ojai Minis (Aug 22, 2006)

lyn_j said:


> [SIZE=14pt]I have had to trust and believe and obey the scriptures so many times in my life and because I have I have experienced Peace that passeth all understanding, healings to both my body and soul and clear direction in my life that was not given before I gave my life over to Jesus and his will. *Until and unless you have that love of Jesus and his gift of the Holy Spirit to live in your heart, you will not be able to understand the things that Karla, Nancy and others are trying to explain. We have all sinned and come short of the Glory of God. He is perfect and holy and in mans natural state we are unworthy of being in His prese*nce. Thats why God invented GRACE. Gods Riches At Christs Expense. I know He lives because He lives in me and I can love and care for others in His name. Those who say the Bible isnt true have not read it thru, seen the prophesies thant have been and are being fulfilled even as we speak. [/SIZE]
> 
> Lyn


Lyn,

With all due respect, this is the kind of stuff that turns me off from Christianity. It sounds so judgmental and he-ll and brimstone. Where is the love? And respect for others opinions on their own spirituality? I do not feel I have sinned. I have made mistakes, and God knows, I'm going to make many more. I try to learn form them, forgive myself, and move on. I truly respect that you find comfort in your beliefs but to say that unless we believe the way you do, we are doomed is just plain dispectful of others. JMHO.

Liz V.


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 22, 2006)

We can all be thankful that our creator loves us all, no matter what. He did not make one better than another and I really am thankful our creator gave us the ability to think for ourselves. What is godly living other than treating all people with the same respect as we want and giving love? As for the Bible having all the answers for everyone, it doesn't. There are many many people who have the utmost respect and love for others and they did not learn this from the bible. It can be learned from living and the intelligence and feelings out creator gave us. We, after all, according to the Bible, were created in his image so it is those who read the Bible who should know this the best. Even though I was raised a Christian, millions and millions of people are not Christians and I would not be Christ like if I were ever to say that they will not have a place in heaven with their creator any more than I will. After all, it is not what we do here on earth that gives us entry to heaven, it is what Christ did. For those who just seek a reward, why is thst necessary....isn't living a good life reward enough and then if we do get more, we can just enjoy it? Just my humble opinion, Mary



lyn_j said:


> [SIZE=14pt]Ive been reading and waiting for dirrection to post again. I really liked this part of one post because it really fits.[/SIZE]
> 
> "Whew! I am so glad I do not share that opinion and that I can embrace it as my guidance to Godly living and the way to eternal life. Do we need to be careful to use the words in context, to understand to what group of people the words were written and their circumstances at the time? Yes. But, it is and always will be the living word of God to me. For if I didn't trust it for answers to how to live my life, who would I trust? Scary thought."
> 
> ...


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 22, 2006)

I trust in God and I trust in myself to find the way.

I do not need Jesus or the bible to tell me what to do, I listen to God and cut out all the middle men.

How can this be wrong??

I do not believe Jesus Christ is my saviour.

I certainly do not believe the bible is the living word of God, there is no way it can be, I find the concept naive and ridiculous.

I will NOT be barred from heaven nor turned away form God, my beliefs are true and i hold to them and I live by them.

They are as valid as any Christian belief.

God loves ALL of his creations, God does not make bargains (how I wish He did!!) God does not turn away from us when we are wilful, and God does not exclude us for our beliefs.

The way to heaven is NOT exclusively through Jesus, it is through GOD, alone.


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## Windstorm Minis (Aug 22, 2006)

Hi all - I have a question and unless I totally missed it - I don't see anything about it in these threads.

I am not a scholar of the Bible as in I cannot quote verse and chapters and such, but I was wondering how has the findings of the writings of Judas affected - if they have at all - your beliefs in the writings in the Bible.

It is my understanding that Judas has long been condemend for betraying Jesus, but now his writings indicate that he was told by Jesus to betray him. If that is the truth, then doesn't that make parts of the Bible untrue? If so, can there be other parts that are also not true?

This has been bothering me since I found out about the discovery of the writings and would like to hear your input.

Thanks.


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## Windstorm Minis (Aug 22, 2006)

I saw it on the National Geographic Website - had pics of the writings and all...I'm going to go the site again and see if there is anything new.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 22, 2006)

Karla having a humble spirit has NOTHING to do with accepting Jesus, I can assure you!!

I know you are not an arrogant person, I truly do, but thats SUCH an arrogant thing to say!!

You have to see that there are SO many truly good, truly kind ,REAL, people out there who are not Christian and never will be.

Who are "saved" in every meaning of the word.

Who will pass untouched through the fires of death and go straight to God praising him.

And are NOT Christian, nor ever will be, nor ever wanted to be.

Believe me, I am missing nothing.

Yo see me as missing out because you see things form a different perspective.

I know I am not as I see things from mine!!

Do not grieve for me- give you pity and help to someone who needs it , I assure you I do not






Windstorm, I have always understood that Judas was told to betray Christ- most probably by Christ himself.

Nowhere does it ever mention that he was not a good Disciple and nowhere is any jealousy ever spoken of or even hinted at- do you not think that, had it existed, human nature would have prevailed and we would have heard all about it form the gospels- they were written by men, after all, who were only human.

Peters lack of faith was chronicled in every detail, yet Judas road to his ultimate betrayal was not??

Why??

Because it did not exist.

He was not suddenly "got at" by satan, he was told to do it by someone he trusted.

Poor guy, he has paid the price down through the ages, his was the ultimate sacrifice, the Disciple who loved and trusted his leader more than any of his colleagues.


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## Windstorm Minis (Aug 22, 2006)

[SIZE=10pt]There is a lot of info on N. Geographic about the findings of the Gospel of Judas.....very interesting....[/SIZE]

Scholars are also able to date ancient manuscripts by analyzing their content and linguistic style.

Three leading scholars examined these aspects of the Gospel of Judas and compared them with other manuscripts from the same period.

Historian Rodolphe Kasser is a former University of Geneva professor and a leading translator of the ancient manuscripts found at Nag 'Hammadi, Egypt, in 1945. Bible scholar Marvin Meyer of Chapman University in Orange, California, and Stephen Emmel, professor of Coptic (Egyptian Christian) studies at Germany's University of Munster joined Kasser in evaluating and translating the documents.

The scholars agree that the codex's theological concepts and linguistic structure are similar to those of the Nag 'Hammadi manuscripts. That large collection of texts dates to the same time period as the Judas documents.

The Nag 'Hammadi texts also contain Gnostic writings similar to those found in the Judas codex. Gnostic writings are early Christian texts deemed heretical by Christian leaders of the first centuries A.D.

Emmel explains that the Judas manuscript, like the Nag 'Hammadi texts, contains a second-century Gnostic thought process that would be very difficult to falsify.

To fabricate such a document, "you would have to reflect a world that is totally foreign to any world we know today," Emmel said. "A world that is 1,500 years old â€¦ is very difficult for scholarsâ€”even who spend their lives studying these thingsâ€”to understand, let alone to 'create' for other people.

"It would take a real genius to produce an artifact like this and personally I don't think it possible."

"I have no doubt whatsoever that this codex is a genuine artifact of late antique Egypt and that it contains evidence for genuine works of ancient Christian apocryphal literature," Emmel added.


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 22, 2006)

Isn't it being very niave to think that someone else is missing joy becaue they do not have the same beliefs as you? How do you know that a person does not experience as much joy as you just because they have different beliefs? And is it not possible that not all people find joy in the same things?

It seems you are sadly making judgements of another person , and it is not our place to judge...we are to accept others as we want to be accepted. I feel sorry for anyone who believes that only their way is the right way and judges others accordingly.

I find it very interesting how people are really asking and wanting to know more but each person has to take responsibility for what they are teaching ...if it turns toward judging another then what is taught but being judgemental.? Mary

"To rabbit, I say "okay." We'll never agree with the other's beliefs, for you think Christian beliefs are



> naive and ridiculous.


 and


> I trust in myself to find the way.


 and


> I do not believe Jesus Christ is my saviour.


 It takes a humble spirit to confess our sins and accept Jesus, rather than to feel we can take on the world ourselves. However, I do feel sad for you, for in my heart I know what joy you're missing. I do, however, completely respect your decision. As you do mine.



:
Oh MA would you tell me where that quote is in the Bible? I'm not familiar with it and wanted to read all around it.


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## looney2n (Aug 22, 2006)

This thread becomes a little tense at times but that is not always a bad thing. Emotions are what are involved and God gave us those emotions. Each person has thier own beliefs in many things. But to think that we are correct just because they are our beliefs is being shallow. Now don't get all carried away with saying that was a judgemental statement. I am just referring to that type of thinking in general. Each of us got our beliefs from somewhere. As I stated in an earlier post, I was brought up believing so strongly in what my pastor had taught and I stood firmly by those beliefs. Finally, thank GOD, I was questioned about my beliefs, so I went to the source, my pastor, and he admitted to me, "well, that isnt actually how the Bible states it but that is how our religion believes". I was devistated to say the least. The issues that I had been standing firm on were, in fact, lies because I was told they were in the Bible. This effected me so much that I had to stand back and take a look at what I had been believing as truth for my whole life! It was one of the biggest, most humbling moments in my life. But I am thankful that it happened because if it had'nt, It is very probable that I would still be there. I now seek to understand God and what HIS will is for my life. That means that I have to keep my mind open to the Holy Spirit, and remain teachable through His word and leaders that base thier teachings from the word. IN MY OPINION, there is nothing else to go by? If we hold tight to believing something because the opposite may be a bit uncomfortable, then we are considered unteachable. Of course everyperson will have a different view of things but that is where the Holy Spirit comes into play. He will lead us as He did the people who wrote the LIVING word of God. Again, just my 2 cents,



: Looney2n


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 22, 2006)

But it still comes down to you saying you are right because your beliefs are the only ones that are correct so others are wrong. Just because I am a Christian does not make it right for me to tell another that their beliefs are wrong or they aren't happy because they don't believe as I do. As I said before, even Christians don't interpret the Bible in the same way because it is ambiguous. I feel sorry for anyone who thinks God will only give them a place in heaven if they believe as you do......I do believe that God is much more generous and loving then what you may begiving him credit for. I can't believe that there is a God who would not allow his creations all the same rights. God is love and love forgives. Mary



barnbum said:


> Mary, I guess as each of us embraces our beliefs, and listens to, but does not make a change to another's faith, it could be seen as judgmental.
> 
> As a Christian I would just like to see everyone get to heaven. Do I think folks will get there by simply being a good person? That is not what my Bible teaches, so I'd be denying my faith if I agreed that would happen. I think stating one's beliefs and not accepting another's is not judgmental. It's just stating one's beliefs and not accepting another's.
> 
> ...


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## Ashley (Aug 23, 2006)

Well I guess according to this I am going to heck then.......................im glad to know at least I wont be alone there! 



:


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## susanne (Aug 23, 2006)

If indeed heaven only accepts those of one belief (and a narrow one at that) and rejects those who live a life of goodness and kindness but who ascribe to different beliefs, then that is not heaven at all, at least not a heaven I would want to visit, let alone spend eternity.

I need only to witness an abused animal's ability to forgive and love to know that goodness and light is not the sole privilege of the churched. I find god in nature and in the creatures of the world. We are not born sinners, we are born good, kind and loving. We stray from this due to fear, but we can always find our way back through love. Some need help finding their way, and I am happy that we are each free to choose. Whatever helps you find love and goodness is a wonderful thing, and we need to respect each others' way.

Life is not about easy, comforting answers...it is a challenge. Those who seek simple answers often fall prey to cults (which exist amongst the fringes of all religions of the world). I admire those who approach their religious beliefs with a keen, intellectual curiosity rather than accepting someone else's teachings as a matter of blind faith. While I do not consider myself a Christian, but rather a pantheist, I enjoy and admire Karla's thorough knowledge upon which her belief is based.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 23, 2006)

Susanne very well put!!

I say again, and shall say to my grave, I am NOT a Christian, I do NOT believe Jesus is my saviour, I shall NOT go to h-ell for it, I shall NOT be denied heaven for it.

My beliefs are as true and as valid as any Christians beliefs.

My heart is as full of joy.

I do not believe either the bible or the Q'ran are the living word of God, I know that they are not and I do believe it is naive to believe that they are.

The men that flew those aircraft into the twin towers, the men that blew up and murdered and maimed God alone knows how many people last year on July 7th- they had read the "living word of God" as interpreted by their mullah- it told them they would go straight to heaven as Martyrs and God would welcome them with open arms as true believers.

Do you think this is correct, because it says so in the "living word of God"??

Or is there just the one "living word of God"??

And it is the Christian one and all others are false, because that is EXACTLY what the Muslims are saying, about _their_"living word of God" as well!!!!

Do we all have to be Christians to enter heaven??

The very idea is preposterous!!

Ashley not only will you not be alone you will have some very good and interesting company- some of the deepest thinkers of all time were not Christians- Schweitzer, Plato, Aristotle, Hippocrates, Socrates- the list goes on and on and on.

This is an argument that cannot be resolved, Christians have always been a very closed minded faith, it was the very exclusiveness of the faith that got it started in the first place, when you get a faith, as mine, that allows all people to believe whatever they want so long as it does no harm to anyone, well, what's the point, a lot would ask.

If God loves us all why should I bother believing in a particular thing??

The thing at the very base of exclusive religions, that holds everyone to them, is the fear that they will go to h-ell if they do not.

I assure you all, not only do I not have this fear, I KNOW with a deep and truly joyful knowledge, that it is not true that God does not think that way.

Do no harm to anyone, live your life as well as you can.

By all means read the bible or the Q'ran if you want, they have some beautiful texts and some very useful adages, but do not allow them to rule your lives.

Live you lives according to your _own_ beliefs, God's welcome will be just as real.


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## lyn_j (Aug 23, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt]I think that the thread has become now an argument back and forth about who is right and who isnt. We are not saying that because you dont believe what we do you are a bad person.God is the final judge of that. We were told by God to share what we believe is our truth which we have done. God will hold each of us, accountable for His word, some for sharing it and others for how they chose to receive it. When Jesus sent the deciples out two by two to spread the Gospel they were hesitant too. They asked him "Lord what should we do if the people dont receive us?" and He told them "Shake the dust off your feet and move on" I am not able to pinpoint the verses for you like Karla and I am thankful that she came to this forum with all this knowledge. I have shared from my heart what has transpired in my life and how I feel about it. That is all God required me to do. How you, any of you, live and believe is between you and God.Seeds of faith have been planted here, We have watered them but God will give the increase.[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 23, 2006)

[SIZE=18pt]Lyn you will get no argument from me, or from any other non-Christian on here about who is right or wrong.[/SIZE]

My beliefs have room for everyone.

It is only the Christians who have so far put forward any sort of intimation that anyone is right or wrong.

The suggestion that only Christians can enter Heaven is offensive in the extreme.

That is basically all I have to say


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## Gena (Aug 23, 2006)

bcody said:


> I am just wondering if you have ever lost or waivered in your faith? If you have, how did you get it back? I am feeling a little lost and uncertain at the moment when it comes to God. Nothing major has happened to make me feel this way, I do not know know why I feel this way.


I can share with you what what my beliefs are: When I start to feel that I am waivering its usually because I am not spending enough time with God. I believe I should put God first in my life but admit I don't usually do that with the rat race of life. When I do however make time for my relationship with God my life is more peaceful. God is my strength. I know in my heart He is patient with me, forgiving, loving, and kind. I have been through so much in my life and don't know how I would have made it without feeling God was there watching over me. I believe God is the same before, now, and forever. I believe that He made us in His own image and gives us the feedom of choice. I can't imagine my children loving me because they would have to, I believe God feels the same way. I believe He is the creator of everything. I do believe that Jesus is the son of God. I do believe that He is my savior. I believe He came to earth to give us everlasting life in heaven. The time we have here on earth is so itty bitty compared to the time we will have in eternity. Of course I have questions for God like most people do but I have the faith of a child. I do not judge others that believe differently, it is not our place to judge. I believe God and God alone knows each and every one of our hearts.


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## mrgizzmoe (Aug 23, 2006)

the bottom line is what ever keeps you going and keeps you going thur life in a good way cant be a bad thing. i may not have the faith that most of you all have but being religous is not always for everyone. the biggest thing some people seem to forget is that we all need to agree to disagree if that is the case.

i am overy opened minded . i cant buy into anyone thorey of god or anything. there could be nothing or there could be everything. all i can do is try to be the best person i can be daily...my faith is in me more than anything.


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## Windstorm Minis (Aug 23, 2006)

I have to say that overall I think this is one of the best discussions on religion that I have been somewhat a part of - everyone has been allowed to express their beliefs/opinions without being visciously attacked - all of you are to be commened on that - especially on such a passionate topic!!

I am still interested in what folks think of the findings of the Gospel of Judas, especially with this wonderful diverse group



:

Because of some negative experiences in church, I don't have a really high opinion of "organized" religion. I don't believe that you have to go to church to have faith or believe in God or Jesus or pray or any of that.

Up until my Dad passed away suddenly in 1995, I really did not think much about any of it and frankly did not even care about any kind of religion. Since then I have thought more about it, as in I hope there is something after we die - I hope one day I do get to see my Dad again and others that have passed on. It gives me comfort to believe that I will.

I have decided to actually read the entire Bible and see what conclusions I come to and write down questions that I have.

I want to know what it says about Judas versus what his writings say. Rabbit - did you say that it doesn't say anything about his "betrayal" of Jesus in the Bible?

What I want to know is who said what about Judas? Maybe this is not the right starting point, but I found it very intriguing, as I had always heard that Judas was "condemmed" as the betrayer of Jesus and yet now his writings say that he was told to do that, which is a huge, huge difference.

I just read a book that John Hagee wrote - have any of you read any of his publishings?

I found the book, Jeruselem Countdown, facinating and very scary. It is about Isreal and the Jews and the Bible and what all is going on now over there. The very interesting thing is he wrote this over a year ago and everything he stated that would happen this year - has happened.

Sorry if I have made no sense at all.



:


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 23, 2006)

What is God but love???If we feel we are not spending enough time with God then perhaps we are not spending enought time in giving love. God asks nothing else from us but to love. If we replace the word "God" with "Love" we will actually get further ahead in living the life we were given in a positive manner than not. It is how the Bible has been interpreted that makes it a problem....such as God being depicted by the writers in two different ways. One, a kind loving, compassionate, forgiving god and another as a revengeful, punitive, god that went so far as to zap a woman into a pillar of salt because she looked back! I want no part of a god who would do some of the things that men have written him to be!! I can forgive a person for doing wrong but how can I be expected to forgive a god who would do horrible things? Forget all the different religions and we would be better off in just believing that our bodies are the temple of God and if we believe this we will alwayshave him near and dear to us.

I love the writings of Kahill Gibran because he puts into words so much of what I feelIn his book "The Prophet" he states:

"Is not religion all deeds and all reflection......?

Who can separate his faith from his actions, or his belief from his occupations? Who can spread his hours before him, saying, This is for God and this is for myself; This for my soul, and this other for my body?

And he to whom worshipping is a window, to open but also to shut, has not yet visiterd the house of his soul whose windows are from dawn to dawn.

Your daily life is your temple and your religion."

Being a Christian, some Christians say, is a very tough life but it doesn't have to be tough if you have love and respect for all people. JMHO Mary



Gena said:


> bcody said:
> 
> 
> > I am just wondering if you have ever lost or waivered in your faith? If you have, how did you get it back? I am feeling a little lost and uncertain at the moment when it comes to God. Nothing major has happened to make me feel this way, I do not know know why I feel this way.
> ...


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## Ojai Minis (Aug 23, 2006)

Buckskin gal said:


> What is God but love???If we feel we are not spending enough time with God then perhaps we are not spending enought time in giving love. God asks nothing else from us but to love. If we replace the word "God" with "Love" we will actually get further ahead in living the life we were given in a positive manner than not. It is how the Bible has been interpreted that makes it a problem....such as God being depicted by the writers in two different ways. One, a kind loving, compassionate, forgiving god and another as a revengeful, punitive, god that went so far as to zap a woman into a pillar of salt because she looked back! I want no part of a god who would do some of the things that men have written him to be!! I can forgive a person for doing wrong but how can I be expected to forgive a god who would do horrible things? Forget all the different religions and we would be better off in just believing that our bodies are the temple of God and if we believe this we will alwayshave him near and dear to us.
> 
> I love the writings of Kahill Gibran because he puts into words so much of what I feelIn his book "The Prophet" he states:
> 
> ...


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## Gena (Aug 23, 2006)

Buckskin gal said:


> What is God but love???If we feel we are not spending enough time with God then perhaps we are not spending enought time in giving love. God asks nothing else from us but to love. If we replace the word "God" with "Love" we will actually get further ahead in living the life we were given in a positive manner than not. It is how the Bible has been interpreted that makes it a problem....such as God being depicted by the writers in two different ways. One, a kind loving, compassionate, forgiving god and another as a revengeful, punitive, god that went so far as to zap a woman into a pillar of salt because she looked back! I want no part of a god who would do some of the things that men have written him to be!! I can forgive a person for doing wrong but how can I be expected to forgive a god who would do horrible things? Forget all the different religions and we would be better off in just believing that our bodies are the temple of God and if we believe this we will alwayshave him near and dear to us.
> 
> I love the writings of Kahill Gibran because he puts into words so much of what I feelIn his book "The Prophet" he states:
> 
> ...


I believe God is love, it is Gods wonderful perfect love that I cherish in my life. I will be the first to humbly admit I am not perfect, and is why I am honest and share I don't always spend time with God the way I would like to nor do I always love perfectly. For me to have a close, growing relationship with anyone I need to spend some valuable, quality time with them. Life is busy and I try very hard to use my time and share my love in the way I feel God would want me to. I believe for me to stay on the right path God needs to be first in my life not just once in a while but all the time. I believe its because we are not perfect that God sent his son Jesus so that our sins are forgiven and we can spend eternity in heaven with Him. I am so greatful that God is the one and only true judge for even though I am not perfect and never will be, He forgives me through Jesus, loves me, and knows my heart


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## Buckskin gal (Aug 23, 2006)

Thank you Liz. So very true for many of us....Life doesn't have to be difficult because we so often make it what it is. I have learned to appreciate life so much more as I have grown older. Forgiveness of ourselves can be a difficult thing if we have been raised to believe the wrong things. After the teachings of religion I had as a child, I did not feel worthy of anything and had to learn that Iam a creation of thel oving God and if I was not capable of forgiving myself I was not capable of forgiving others. We are all a work in progress and we all strive to do the best we can with what we have. I have confidence now. in human nature and believe all have worth. Each individual has something to learn and each has something to teach.....so much to learn from all points of view. I think we make a big mistake in expecting perfection from ourselves and others, in all we do. After all what is perfection? Hugs, Mary

I am really enjoying your posts. This is exactly how I feel. I am not good at expressing my feelings, so thank you! One of my BIGGEST lessons I am learning is Life does not have to be hard



It's all about my attitude. Forgivness of my self is also another big lesson for me. I am continually working on adding love to all that I do and say and feel. But I am a work in progress and am not perfect



:

Liz V.


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## Vertical Limit (Aug 23, 2006)

Ojai Minis said:


> Mary,
> 
> I am really enjoying your posts. This is exactly how I feel. I am not good at expressing my feelings, so thank you! One of my BIGGEST lessons I am learning is Life does not have to be hard
> 
> ...



I agree! I have really enjoyed your posts! Thank you Mary!

Carol


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## capall beag (Aug 23, 2006)

Excellent Buckskin Gal!

Really well put!!


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## looney2n (Aug 23, 2006)

Someone referenced the Harsh way that God punished people in the Bible. I just want to point out that in those days (the Old Testement), people who wanted to repent had to offer sacrifices of lambs and such for forgiveness of thier sins. (Can you imagine if we had to do that today!? I would be outside 24/7, roasting marshmellows as I offer up all of those sacrifices! :no: ) But then God brought Jesus into the picture (the New Testement). Jesus suffered unbelievably for EVERY man so that we may have the priveledge of simply going to our Father in humility and remorse for the sins we commit and ask for forgiveness. Once we do that, He is faithful to forgive us. Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice so we can not only have our sins forgiven but through that sacrifice, see the perfect love that God has for His children, to have His precious son die FOR US.

I have re-read so many posts on here and it is really quite an interesting group. It is awesome to see so many different people with varying beliefs but the majority just simple want to please God. I think that God is reading it all too and just smiling REALLY BIG at all of us right now with a twinkle in His eye!. I love that picture!

looney2n


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 24, 2006)

Karla we can all agree to differ, there is room for just about any opinion and belief on this Forum.

It is our diversity of opinions, I believe, that makes us so strong.

Between us we have just about every aspect of God covered, and every way of contacting and utilising the energy.

And we are not afraid to use it!!!


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## nootka (Aug 24, 2006)

Well, I don't much use the word, "Amen" but instead I will say "you said it" rabbitsfizz!



Liz


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