# What is wrong with this picture?



## targetsmom (Nov 5, 2009)

I mentioned on the other thread that there were a lot of things wrong in the photo I posted so I thought I should explain. Here is another photo from the same show where we are doing a 20 meter circle in working trot.

For background, the mare is 5 and 32" tall; I am 5' tall and in my 60's. We are both pretty green at this.







Major issues:

1. The traces are at an upward angle which almost makes the breast plate cut into her neck. (This was fixed by removing the single tree and placing it underneath).

2. The breeching is too low and too loose (easy fix).

3. Snaps should not be used on your breeching in competition

4. And any snaps used should be stainless steel (or equivalent) and not be the weakest link!

Less critical (well at least I think they are)

5. Pads should not be used under the harness in this type of competition. (In my defense on this one, remember the story of the Princess and the pea? THIS IS THE PRINCESS!). I am getting a better harness.

6. The trim on my black apron is gray and does not match anything. I have had the trim replaced with tan binding to match the cart.

7. The tie on my helmet makes my helmet look even bigger. (My trainer's comment - I would love to hear yours).

8. I should be wearing dress shoes, not boots (again my trainer's comment).

9. My hair is all wrong! (I won't even go there.....)

10. My gloves should be a darker brown (any ideas here? these are driving gloves).

Feel free to add your critique on my turnout, driving, and the mare's way of going. But I am not looking for a conformation critique - Princess has been shown in plenty of halter classes.


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Nov 5, 2009)

I'm very curious about how you actually moved your singletree down. Would you mind elaborating on this please? Seems to becoming more and more of a common practice. Or at least I'm reading more so about it lately. Was it very difficult?

Thanks!

Lori


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## targetsmom (Nov 5, 2009)

You will note I didn't say that "I" moved the singletree!!! I took it to my trainer's and they did it. It took several hours and left some holes to be filled in (we did that) and a bolt to cover (I did that myself with a rubber thingy I got from the hardware store). One tricky part was that some filing was needed in order to make enough room to attach the traces in this new configuration. But it does fix the problem. And my trainer mentioned that it is a fairly common problem. My trainers are really wonderful - even if we don't agree on all their comments!


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## Shari (Nov 5, 2009)

Can you show the close up photos on how your cart looks after you moved the single tree down. I have the same problem in the cart I have now.. the single tree is rather high.


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## targetsmom (Nov 5, 2009)

OK, I will do my best to take photos and post them but it won't be today. Maybe over the weekend.

I did check with my husband who was paying more attention to the process than I was and he said one of the major problems was that the hole for the bolt was slightly off center. So when he tried the single tree underneath, it hit on one side of the cart and there was no room to atttach the trace. The solution they came up with was to make the hole somewhat oblong so the singletree could be centered in its new position. With luck, you won't have this problem! But you might want to measure first to make sure there is enough room on each side once the singletree is underneath.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 5, 2009)

There should be a plate in the center of the singletree holding it to the splinter bar. You remove it by removing the screws holding the plate, turn it upside down and put the plate back in from the bottom up so that the singletree is hanging below the splinter bar. Be sure not to tighten it up so much the singletree can't move and make sure there is clearance for the singletree to swing without interference. You will have to fill the holes left on the top.

I have to agree with your trainer's comments about the helmet and gloves and hair. Your gloves should match your rein colour (for Pleasure driving or ADS events reins must be brown so that black dye won't come off on your hands) and your reins are a much darker brown than your rusty brown coloured gloves which are more suitable to a russet harness. The whole idea is to make it look like your hands are an extension of the reins and be less conspicuous.

The turquoise sash on your helmet really does draw attention to the width of the helmet and it just looks kind of odd and unbalanced - distracting to the judges eye. I agree with your use of a helmet protecting your most important asset but carriage driving has always been about elegance and that sash just looks awkward. Perhaps you could try a black velvet tie around the helmet with a small turquoise flower or bow on the side? That would add the colour you are looking for without that long horizontal line, otherwise I would go with nothing but the black helmet.

For Pleasure driving the rule is that your hair must NOT touch your collar. This is awkward and sometimes uncomfortable when wearing a helmet but you need to get it up so that it is not hanging down your back.

Your horse looks lovely, relaxed and confidant! She is moving well, under herself and with a nice round back. Congratulations!!!


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## squeaky (Nov 6, 2009)

The only other comment I might add is that it looks lik your cart is back too far. I was always taught that it should be even with the point of shoulder for proper weight placement on the horse's back and to make it asier for them to pull. Please correct me if I am wrong, as times and practices change.

Amanda


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## targetsmom (Nov 6, 2009)

Lori- Thanks so much for your comments. I still have a LOT to learn!!! That helped. I'll be shopping for new gloves at the Equine Affaire next week.

You make an excellent point Amanda about the position of the cart and I should have included that in my long list of things wrong! Ideally the end of the shaft should be at the point of the shoulder. This one isn't real easy to fix however, as the next adjustment on the traces would put the cart too far in the other direction. Lisa Singer pointed this out at a clinic we attended in June and she suggested that I punch a hole BETWEEN the holes on my traces. I have not done that because this isn't a problem with the other carts I use with Princess - my Graber show cart and the easy entry we use for giving cart rides. I hope the new harness will fix this problem. But then, I might be using a totally different horse in 2010 too.

Here we are at a March clinic with the easy entry cart (doing a "stretch into the bit") and you can see the position is better. Same horse, same harness. Notice the breeching is better too!


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## Annabellarose (Nov 6, 2009)

What an educational thread! Thank you for putting yourself out there for critique!


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## krissy3 (Nov 6, 2009)

This is just my personal oppinion the way it looks at first glance.

I love the horse

I think your shirt could be white, no scarf, clean tie up boots I think are fine if they are polished.

I like black driving gloves because I dont think they stand out so much.

I do not like a lot of color , I think it shows off the horse better , i dont want eyes on me .

grey or black long skirt (simple) black boots, white blouse, hat or helmet , black .

Gereral rule , one color for accessories, black boots , black hat, black gloves, or brown hat, boots gloves..one or the other if you want color, add a small bow , or small scarf around ,and under collar.

To me the cart looks too big ,like the wheels are too big, like your up too high . I like the position of the seat better in the first photo. But again thats just how I feel, most people on the forum will feel differently.I like the way your sitting in the cart, and holding your hands, I did notice the boots in the second photo...I like a English look in Pleasure driving, so the lace up boots with a 1 inch heel for me. I think you are doing great though.Everything I mentioned is just an oppinion, and very minor. You look confident and relaxed , and so does your horse...thats great!

Krissy


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 6, 2009)

krissy3 said:


> Gereral rule , one color for accessories, black boots , black hat, black gloves, or brown hat, boots gloves..one or the other if you want color, add a small bow , or small scarf around ,and under collar.Krissy


Krissy, it is a rule in ADS pleasure driving that your gloves must be brown. They don't have to match your hat and boots as you would be changing into other gloves once you reached your destination - the driving gloves are for just that - driving, and are brown to match the brown reins that are also a requirement. If you were to have black reins or black gloves there is a greater chance of the black dye staining your hands. In fact in a lot of turnout classes you will see very correct drivers with their "social" gloves (the ones that match their outfit) laid on the seat beside them. This is just another one of those little differences between breed show driving and pleasure driving.


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## krissy3 (Nov 7, 2009)

I always get chewed out for something on this forum...good black gloves will not stain hands, any cheap glove will stain hands no matter what color. sometimes I feel like I am back in HS.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 7, 2009)

krissy3 said:


> I always get chewed out for something on this forum...good black gloves will not stain hands, any cheap glove will stain hands no matter what color. sometimes I feel like I am back in HS.


I wasn't "chewing you out" Krissy,



just pointing out that Targetsmom is competing in a pleasure show that has rules specifying glove colour and black is not acceptable there. You have to understand that pleasure driving is a very traditional sport dating back MANY years when black dye WOULD stain your hands and so a rule was made and it still exists today - brown reins and brown gloves.

Thanks Krazeeaboutkasspur - we must have been posting at the same time!


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Nov 7, 2009)

She's not chewing you out Krissy



, just explaining the color rules in the show ring.


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## krissy3 (Nov 7, 2009)

I did not see that she was asking for the rules of a spacific club, just advice on dress everyone knows that brown belt, brown shoes, brown accessories ( old fashioned ..YES but a classic rule.)...When I said rule I was referring to rules of propper , classic dress (Emily Post)..NOT your ADS club or any other club, in a fashion sense. Other than running a hotel in Switzerland where I must be in a suit everyday, I also worked for 4 years as a Fashion Buyer in Brooklyn New York, 32nd and 3rd Ave 2 stores , 1 in bayridge and 1 in Redbank NJ. There are a lot of clubs out there, to assume there is one rule for every club in the world is silly.My first sentence of my post was "this is just my oppinion....the last sentance was also ..this is just my oppinion. And for this post ..."This is just my oppinion"


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## susanne (Nov 7, 2009)

Krissy,

Just to clarify, ADS refers to the American Driving Society -- not a local club. ADS is the governing body for for most driving competitions outside the show ring (including Pleasure Shows, CDEs, ADTs, and a whole lot of alphabet soup). Its rules and practices are based upon longtime American, British and European driving traditions. It is an entirely different world than breed show driving, but an enormous part of the driving world.

Lori did not intend to insult you or your sense of style; she was simply pointing out the rules of ADS turnout These ARE rules (not simply fashion or personal preference) and not following them will cost you dearly in an ADS sanctioned show. Rules do vary amongst and within various ADS events (i.e., turnout is not an issue in the marathon segment of a CDE), but all are spelled out in the ADS rule book and remain the same across the U.S.

Many other very distinct differences exist between ADS and breed show driving. For example, if one were to go into an AMHA or AMHR show as per ADS rules, they would be disqualified for not having a check. (Check reins are not allowed for the most part in ADS.)

Whatever your preferred type of driving, it is good to have at least a cursory knowledge of the various rules, traditions, and practices of the other types of driving competitions -- besides, it's always fun to learn new things..

Getting offended when someone points out facts can mean missing very useful information and perhaps even to discourage experienced and knowledgeable members from sharing -- either one of those possibilities would be a crime. I'd rather keep an open mind and learn all that I can!


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## krissy3 (Nov 7, 2009)

I belonged to ADS when I lived in California. I know everything you have said. We have many rules over here too. We show Shetlands in white, meaning us not dressing the horse in white, we dont shave them. If you trim the wiskers you are DQ .So I know rules with clubs and every club is a little different, and even though I show one horse with AMHA, I still have to follow Switzerlands rules, I had to learn 2 new sets of rules over here. We have German Shetlands ,English and American, all shown completely different with different rules, all within 1 country. I dont need a lesson on rules. We dont allow sidechecks or overchecks here. All this hype because i said to match gloves with hat,with shoes.... if you rather be mismatched , its your deal not mine.good luck


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## dreaminmini (Nov 8, 2009)

Thank you Targetsmom for putting yourself out there for critique. It's too bad these threads get hijacked into something else because people overreact to being taught something. This is a great learning tool and you had some good answers here I think. That is exactly what I was hoping for with this new forum and look forward to learning lots as a fairly new driver myself. I'm hoping to try a few Pleasure shows myself in the next year so it's great to learn as much before you go. I hope that you will post again with your new improved look in you next shows.



and keep us posted with how you do.

I agree with the others, your horse does look very nice.


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## targetsmom (Nov 8, 2009)

Thank you all for the compliments on my mare!! And I do hope this thread will help other people avoid at least some of the "rookie" mistakes I made. I sure wish I had seen something like this before our first ADS show.

Now, as promised, here are a couple of photos of the cart after the singletree was moved.

Here you can see where it ended up, and little room there is for the traces. But it does work, and the line of the traces is now about level.






Here is where the singletree used to be, with the holes filled in, stained, and finished. And you can see the black protector I put on the end of the bolt. The black metal plate that was here is now underneath where you can't really see it very well.






I hope to be trying it out this afternoon on Ruby, our red and white mare.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 9, 2009)

Krissy pm'd me with this: OMG are you wearing black gloves in your photo you posted ? you know those will stain your hands... can you tell me why they are not on your seat?

I thought I would reply to it here for the benefit of anyone else who may be wondering. I assume she is referring to the pictures I posted on the "show your turnout" thread. In all those photos I am wearing my dark brown carriage driving gloves that match my dark brown reins as required by the rules of pleasure driving. The green jacket I have on driving Willie is also quite a bit lighter than it shows in that photo. My hair is very incorrect as it is down on my collar. That show was for Tri County and it was a fun show NOT a highly competitive show. My "social" gloves are not on the seat of that cart because as you may notice it is a single seat Miniature cart and they would just get lost. They are in my spares kit though. I do occasionally wear a lovely pair of black gloves in the AMHR sanctioned showdriving ring and I went and checked to see if I had them on in the photo I posted of Dream at the Area show. I don't, but I could have as there are no rules there governing the colour of your gloves in the breed ring and I am not in the least bit concerned about staining my hands - the gloves cover all the goop I get on my hands at a sanctioned show anyway.


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## AppyLover2 (Nov 16, 2009)

I don't drive and really have no idea what CDE is. Just thought I'd point out that without Krissy's critique and Lori's response, I would not have known such a rule (glove color) existed. This is the kind of exchange that allows others to learn. Sure would be nice if people wouldn't get their knickers in a knot over the sharing of information. Krissy maybe you don't need a lesson on rules.....but some of us appreciate the information.

Targetsmom thank you for giving us wannabe drivers an opportunity to learn from your experience.


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## targetsmom (Nov 16, 2009)

I am glad if this was able to help someone else - that was the whole idea!

I also put this photo in the American Driving Society booth at the Massachusetts Equine Affaire last Thursday- yesterday (Nov 12-15). It got lots of attention and comments there also, and prompted much discussion about the glove color! While several people commented that ideally, your gloves and reins should be the same shade so that they kind of blend together, they conceded that any color brown is correct. Many also commented that the shade of brown I am wearing is really what you find in almost every driving shop. I did buy some darker brown gloves for riding and I may try those next year. I expect to have a whole different turnout and horse next year, with fewer examples for a discussion like this!


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## Krazee bout Kasspur (Nov 16, 2009)

Yes...Thank You Targetsmom....and Ditto what Appylover2 said. I came here to learn about my mini donk basically and kept seeing the letters CDE quite often. If not for your discussions about it here on the site, I'd have never known. Since I dearly love to drive I really enjoy all the pics and explanations, and might even get to participate in a CDE one day. You just never know!

Oh, and I especially enjoy seeing the hats.


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## RhineStone (Nov 16, 2009)

John Greenall, the "Turnout Guru" of the carriage driving world, says that if you want to darken your brown leather gloves, just rub them on a sweaty horse.

Also, Krissy is right that shoes/boots and belts should match. Actually, they should match the color of the harness, so if you have black harness, you should have black footwear and belt (if you wear one). This goes even if the rest of your turnout is brown, i.e. brown coat/blouse. Russet harness should have brown footwear. It used to be that the metal on the vehicle also had to match the harness, but they have loosened up on that b/c it is a challenge to completely repaint your vehicle just because you have russet harness, but the leather on the vehicle should be russet, too. Russet harness should only be used with a natural (not painted) wood vehicle.

I knew of a competitor that had a russet harness and a natural wood vehicle with brown painted metal. She also had carriage lamps with brown metal, and she was told by Mr. Greenall that carriage lamps were never painted brown, and therefore, should still remain black even though the rest of the vehicle was brown. Yes, carriage driving is steeped in tradition and "good taste". Even your (subtle) jewelry and buttons should match, no mixing silver and gold. (Does not apply to bits and buckle tongues where strength is needed.)


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 16, 2009)

You are right on the money there Rhinestone! And if you check out the ADS rule book they go so far as to tell you exactly what colour and style of hat, gloves and clothes you should be wearing if you are a driver, groom or passenger on the different types of vehicles and hitches. Not quite so important for Minis as we are rather limited on our vehicles but even so some of it does apply to us so you are wise to read up on it if you truly want to be competitive.


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## whitney (Dec 4, 2009)

eeeee gods I'm coming in. Driving clinic I went to the instructor suggested black paste shoe dye to darken up new brown reins and gloves...............................


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## RhineStone (Dec 7, 2009)

whitney said:


> eeeee gods I'm coming in. Driving clinic I went to the instructor suggested black paste shoe dye to darken up new brown reins and gloves...............................


The clinician was probably not a carriage driver!



No carriage driver in their right mind would do that! That does work well, however, for blackening "faded" black parts, or you might even have to redye those with leather dye. Maybe a dark brown shoe polish would work for reins/gloves. I never thought about that.


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 8, 2009)

Okay I have never tried shoe polish on reins or gloves but I am thinking "shiny shoes" = slippery reins and gloves?????


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## Minxiesmom (Dec 8, 2009)

I don't have access to the ADS rule book, so this is directed at someone that does...

Lori said they are specific about the style of hat to use. I love hats, and don't want to be incorrect when choosing one. So, what would be appropriate with a single mini in an ADS aproved show or dressage at a CDE? BTW my cart/harness is black/brass. (Please don't tell me black.)


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## Annabellarose (Dec 8, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> Okay I have never tried shoe polish on reins or gloves but I am thinking "shiny shoes" = slippery reins and gloves?????


I have never used shoe polish on gloves (as I only ever used to wear a stretch fabric glove with leather on the underside of the fingers and the palms), but I used to use Kiwi paste shoe polish (in the little tin can) on my slick leather cutback saddles back when I rode Saddleseat (Morgans, Saddlebreds, Arabians). After a very thorough cleaning I would apply an even coat of the paste with a stiff horsehair dauber, let it dry thoroughly, and then brush it off energetically with a medium horsehair polish brush and it actually left a shiny, "tacky" surface.


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## RhineStone (Dec 8, 2009)

Minxiesmom said:


> I don't have access to the ADS rule book, so this is directed at someone that does...
> Lori said they are specific about the style of hat to use. I love hats, and don't want to be incorrect when choosing one. So, what would be appropriate with a single mini in an ADS aproved show or dressage at a CDE? BTW my cart/harness is black/brass. (Please don't tell me black.)



The ADS rulebook is not specific on exactly what hat to use, except in the case of grooms in Full Livery or Stable Livery. Otherwise, it is necessary and in the rules that your hat "match" your turnout, i.e. a formal hat for a coach, an informal hat for a Sporting vehicle. Generally, the carts that minis use are considered "informal", although there are exceptions. For example, it is inappropriate to wear a big coaching hat in a Meadowbrook. You have to know what the traditional purpose of your vehicle was to determine what to wear. A Meadowbrook is essentially a "grocery-getter" vehicle, not a Sunday park drive vehicle. Your typical Road Cart used by minis is an informal vehicle.

If you want to post a photo, we can help you choose a hat!



Also, you don't want your hat brim to be wider than your shoulders.

I LOVE Turnout!

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Dec 8, 2009)

Annabellarose said:


> MiLo Minis said:
> 
> 
> > Okay I have never tried shoe polish on reins or gloves but I am thinking "shiny shoes" = slippery reins and gloves?????
> ...



I also have found that the leather I polish on the harness tends to be tacky, but I don't think that I would want shiny hands that would attract attention.



I would think that a satin or matte finish would be good there.


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## Annabellarose (Dec 9, 2009)

RhineStone said:


> Annabellarose said:
> 
> 
> > MiLo Minis said:
> ...


The "shiny" versus "matte" thing would depend upon what kind of leather you had in front of you. I can't really recall ever having seen a "shiny" leather glove. I guess you could try, but I am going to say that you really couldn't make a matte leather "shiny" with a cleaning/polishing product.

And, to clarify, I meant "tacky" as in sticky, not as in distasteful.


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## jegray21 (Jan 1, 2010)

Is there a website with all the rules..I am totally confused now. Maybe someone can post a traditional and considered correct turnout picture? Dressage riding was so easy white pants. black jacket, helmet, black tall boots..we all looked the same!

Thanks!


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## michele80906 (Jan 1, 2010)

Great post! I am not into competitive driving (my friend says...."for the moment") but I do enjoy learning about stuff, especially the cart position and harness. Not new to horses but new to driving and any info is great. I hope we have more discussions like this in the future and maybe when I get my little guy rigged back up I will try to be brave, post a pic and ask for some critique. Not for showing..cart and harness info. Michele, Colorado


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## RhineStone (Jan 1, 2010)

jegray21 said:


> Is there a website with all the rules..I am totally confused now. Maybe someone can post a traditional and considered correct turnout picture? Dressage riding was so easy white pants. black jacket, helmet, black tall boots..we all looked the same!


ADS rules on the website, www.americandrivingsociety.org

There are definite rules for turnout, but there are also "unwritten" rules that basically go along with good taste, like your hat shouldn't be wider than your shoulders, and bare skin should be kept to a minimum. Certain colors also go better with some horses than others. The best way to determine if you are on the right track for turnout is to have a "dress rehearsal" with you and your horse all done up, and take photos from 20-30 ft. away. If one thing grabs your attention, get rid of it. For example, I wore a beautiful white hat in 2008, and a number of people said, "nice hat". That should have been a clue for me. We want people to say, "nice turnout". The fact that they noticed my hat above the rest of the turnout indicated that it didn't "go" well.

John Greenall, the Turnout Guru of carriage driving, has some articles on his website about turnout. http://www.vermontel.net/~greenall/ John does a great PowerPoint slideshow on what to do and what not to do. I hope never to end up on the "not to" side!


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## Sandee (Jan 1, 2010)

One question about those "brown" gloves. Where the heck do you find them? The only brown I've been able to find are the lighter ones like she is wearing in the picture. Never have thought that they "matched" anything so didn't bother to get them, but I'd like to have brown gloves that match the rein color.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 1, 2010)

I dye mine darker. I have been able to find dark brown gloves but they are usually darker than my reins so I get the reddish yellow brown gloves and dye them.


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## RhineStone (Jan 1, 2010)

Sandee said:


> One question about those "brown" gloves. Where the heck do you find them? The only brown I've been able to find are the lighter ones like she is wearing in the picture. Never have thought that they "matched" anything so didn't bother to get them, but I'd like to have brown gloves that match the rein color.


John Greenall says to rub them on a sweaty horse and that will darken them. I bought a pair of deerskin "yellow" gloves and dyed them, and it worked well, except that the whip I was using at the time had a white handle. The dye made the handle brown. I now use a carbon fiber whip with a leather handle, and I bought new "long cuff" gloves from Iowa Valley Carriage. No more skin poking out between my sleeve and glove!



Chad let me get them as a "reward" for tieing for Reserve at the first show of the season last year!


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