# new to driving...many questions



## angelspeeper (Jan 10, 2010)

okay sorry for all this but I would like the opinions of the more experienced. Here's a little background about me first.

I show in only AMHA so my horses are all under 34". I currently have only one driving horse...well future driving horse. He is at the trainers currently learning and doing well. But he is on the small side. He is a 31" tall stout little booger. I also have two other prospects, but they are still too young. One is a two-year old, and the other is a yearling. The two-year old is going to mature around the 33" mark. He won't be a show horse, but maybe just a fun-around the farm horse. He is blind in one eye, so I won't reduce what little vision he has left with blinders. (Blinders are required in AMHA)

My questions for now are

1. What is the best way to break in a leather harness?

2. What are the pros and cons of the different show carts? (Brands and versatility)

Jerald is expensive, but is what my trainer recommended. (money is tight right now, as we are trying to relocate)

They are also convertible to roadster if my filly gets big enough. (she is only a yearling now, but has that possibility) this seems to be popular in the show ring.

Graber I understand are less expensive. I've seen them mentioned on here a lot. When I asked my trainer about these...he just made a face and said they were "funky to use" He didn't elaborate on this, so I'm taking it as just his opinion. Those of you who have these carts...will you please try to explain to a newbie. What makes them so "funky" to use versus the Jeralds?

3. Are there any other brands out there that I haven't mentioned? (Remember this is for AMHA show driving only) If so please let me know.


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## Ghosted (Jan 10, 2010)

Already wanting to break that harness in? Don't you think we should get the horse home first?


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## targetsmom (Jan 10, 2010)

I can only comment on the show carts. I have a Jerald and a Graber and the Graber is the only one I use in the ring. Granted, I only showed once with it in AMHA and show mostly Pinto. The Graber new cost about the same as the used Jerald. The Graber is a bit lighter in weight so maybe not quite a sturdy?? Seems sturdy enough to me though. The Graber will also convert to roadster use if you either get the conversion kit (which we did) or buy a closed wheel cart. I have heard people say on here that the closed wheel version raises the seat higher, but I have no first hand experience with that. That might be an issue with a smaller mini. But you can avoid that by getting the Graber as an open wheel cart with the "kit" to make it "closed wheel".

Check the "Reality Check" thread on what carts people own and you can maybe get an idea of what is popular.


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## disneyhorse (Jan 10, 2010)

1. The best way to break in a leather harness is to put it on the horse and use it




Just be sure to check the fit of your harness as you go, as a lot of leathers will stretch as they break in, so you may have to take up a hole here and there.

2. Most show cart brands are just fine. You may even want to start with an easy entry. They are heavier, so your green horse will have to work a little harder if it gets "silly" and they are more sturdy in the case of (hitting the rail, horse doing something "silly", etc.) and as long as it is clean you can show at local shows. I have shown lots of minis in easy entry carts at local AMHR shows and even have placed Champion in the Stakes classes.

That said, I have always LOVED the Jeralds. They really are well worth the money, you can save a bit if you find a used one, but they do hold their value so even if you buy a new one it's worth it. If you come across a Houghton, those are pretty much equivalent to the Jeralds, I personally always preferred Jerald though. Graber carts are just fine, especially if you are starting out and not sure if you want to invest. Remember, these carts do hold value, so you can always start out in the Graber and resell it and then get a Jerald if you really find yourself liking the driving. Grabers are nice, just a bit less like a Cadillac to drive in (slightly more squeaky and a touch less "solid" feeling... but not terrible!) I think the key is getting the cart, whatever brand, with whatever bells and whistles you are looking for (such as the right shaft length for your horse, whatever you find to be a comfortable seat to drive in, and the right wheel style like a convertible-to-roadster style.) This is going to make the biggest difference, not the brand.

3. See above.

31" tall is not too small to drive... I am somewhat on the heavyset side and I had a really cute 32" stallion that was really fun in the cart. Drove that little guy at Nationals and all around town. However, I like the taller ones so I have moved on to a 46" Shetland stallion now





But it's not the size of the horse, it's how they go!

Have fun,

Andrea


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## angelspeeper (Jan 10, 2010)

Thanks for the replies. This horse is the one my son will drive. He has been taking lessons at the trainers in a metal roadster type cart. (it was custom made and has a lawn mower seat instead of the bench) My son is 6'4" , weighs around 160 and is all legs. He says he is comfortable in this cart, but I worry that when he gets a cart with a basket that his knees will be under his chin.

This little horse pulls him without any problems. My son convinced me to give it a whirl, which I did. I come from strictly a riding big horse background. It will take some getting use to for sure. But the horse seemed to have some problems getting going with my big behind in the cart. (I weigh close to 200



on my short 5'6" frame.) so I want something light weight, but sturdy. I was on the other thread about "how many carts do you own". I saw lots of different carts mentioned on there. But didn't know which ones are for breed shows, and which ones were for other ventures. I realize lots of people on here don't do breed shows, but drive in other ventures. CDE? I think is what I saw. As I said we are trying to relocate so money is kinda tight right now, but want to do my homework on carts so that when the time is right I will know which one to pursue.

Other than the Jeralds being a little better quality are there other pros to these over Graber. What are the cons to the Jeralds?


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## disneyhorse (Jan 10, 2010)

Cons to Jeralds? As far as show carts go, they are Cadillacs. I love the different options (seats, wheels, shaft lengths) and they are just good little carts.

Andrea


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## Sandee (Jan 10, 2010)

What you want to look at is the size of the wheels. A 20" wheel is usually enclosed and with a "closed" wheel you cannot change the size of the wheel. I drive a 20" with my 32" stallion and overall look is nice, IMO. However, I own a 26" easy entry cart and my overweight 34" gelding looks better pulling that. The smaller one just makes him look even more overweight.

Again, IMO, if you want to have the ability to switch around more and you can find a 24" open wheel cart, that would be most the most versitile. You could by the piece to make it closed wheel so it could be used for roadster. The 20" barely clears the grass in my pasture so setting up a littler higher would be better.

When you go to a larger wheel sometimes the base is wider. I know the Jerald (and I think the old Houghton) is a wider wheel base than the Graber. Therefore my Graber has a little edge over the wider ones in driving obstacle. Just like a car the wider base can make it more stable but I've had no problem. I really like my Graber but I've never owned anything else - yet.


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## angelspeeper (Jan 10, 2010)

So from the responses so far I'm gathering there are only two brands for AMHA breed showing?

1. Jerald....the Cadillac (as it was put by one poster)

2. Graber...narrower wheel base...good for obstacle?

Surely there are more than these two brands. But if not that's okay too.

My trainer recommended the Jerald, but they are expensive! I asked him about the Graber and he just made a face and said they were "funky to use". What makes them "funky"?

I need to make sure the cart I get is small and lightweight enough for a 31" mini to pull (plus driver weight of 160-200lbs), but also that has a basket big enough for my 6'4" son. (He's all legs...wears 38" length jeans) I sure wouldn't want him to try to drive with his knees under his chin.


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## Solo Farms (Jan 10, 2010)

Trust the trainer!!! I am new to this also and just started my horse in training in October. I go to lessons 3 hours away every weekend. I bought all kinds of things before I picked a trainer and then found out I wasted a bunch of money on things that didn't work right. For instance, I bought a harness from very well known tack dealers that I thought had a lot of knowledge but when my trainer tried to use the harness on my horse it pulled out his hair and gave him sensitive spots. We had been using a training harness that the trainers supplied before this with no adverse affects. After my horse got sore, I bought a harness from my trainer and sold the other one. I swore I would not buy another thing without the trainers input or approval. I don't want to cause my baby any unnecessary pain or discomfort. I realize carts are not the same but if you trust the trainer with your horse, try to trust that they will give you the best advise and make this an enjoyable adventure for you. I am very frugal with my money but driving can be dangerous so I don't take chances on equipment that could fail when I need it the most. I am saving my pennies for a Jerald Cart on the advice of my trainer!


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## Marsha Cassada (Jan 10, 2010)

I will just throw this out:

Unless you are going to Nationals, the Jerald Runabout might be an option. I use mine at local AMHA shows. It is so versatile for everyday use, as you can take passengers. If you can only buy one cart now, it might be an option for you.


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## angelspeeper (Jan 10, 2010)

I got a used, all metal, easy entry from the trainer. Not sure of the brand, but it was in very good shape. The best part was that I got it cheaper than I could have shipped a new one for. Once the horse comes home we'll use that to keep him going. Not sure if we'll make the show circuit this season. But I didn't see that kind of cart at any of the shows we attended last season. That's why I was wanting to find out about show carts.


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## Solo Farms (Jan 10, 2010)

Yep, I got two of those too! My trainer said we could show in an easy entry cart and shouldn't be penalized but after putting all this money into training and equipment I want to do it up right. I might use those at small local shows if I can't get my cart bought soon enough. My trainer occasionally gets "trade in" carts. You may want to contact some other trainers in your area and tack dealers to see if they get anything in. Craigs list occasionally has some listed. Jerald Sulky Company is located a few hours from here so shipping costs are not an issue for me. Good luck!


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## Field-of-Dreams (Jan 10, 2010)

We had all four brands of carts: Jerald, Graber, Houghton and Superior.

Superior: not well finished, paint drips and chips, floor boards were unfinished, poor pinstriping, crooked stitching on anything patent, had to take to to a welder to fix the seat supports- they were at such an angle it felt like you would be ejected if your horse stopped suddenly. Cover was poorly made and fitted, too.

Graber: we traded for one secondhand, it was brand new and never used. Custom burgandy paint job, looked very sharp. However, it was a smaller cart and I never used it, my boy was a "B" and didn't fit. So I can't really tell you how it worked, as we sold it shortly after. (Used the $$ to buy a Jerald....



at least for the down payment! )

Houghton: NICE cart, Jane had it custom built and painted. Smooth ride, awesome finish. It was too big for our A horses, so we sold it, too. Looks awesome behind a 38" horse.

Jerald: what can we say? We have THREE. One is an older closed wheel cart, we think it's at least 15 years old. Other than some paint wear and rust, it's perfectly sound. Found on Craigslist for $750, had covers and everything.



(this was the second cart we've found on Craigslist- our friend bought an open wheel one about two weeks before we got this one, also for $750) Mine is a 1998 open wheel, traded for second hand. It needed new patent (easily redone) and some paint touch ups. Plus the chrome was beginning to rust, (it has a total chrome undercarriage and seat rails) but chrome polish and elbow grease took care of that. Covers are faded and need patched, but we traded for it, so...



Jane's is a 2008 oak with black and gold striping, bought new.

Love the Jeralds. Keep watching the sales sites, you can find nice carts for reasonable prices. It took about $300 to replace all the patent on mine, including a new boot.

Lucy


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## REO (Jan 11, 2010)

Maybe a different person finished your Superior cart than did mine Lucy.





Mine isn't like that!


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## angelspeeper (Jan 11, 2010)

Lucy,

Thank you for the details. That is what kind of info I was looking for. I hadn't thought about using Craigslist, but will look. My trainer had recommended the Jerald, but new is definitely out of my price range. Maybe with some luck I could find one used that is in good shape for a reasonable price. That is why I was looking into other options. Several on here mentioned Graber carts. I don't remember who it was, but someone had mentioned being able to buy a new Graber for the price of a used Jerald. I was considering new because I wouldn't know what faults to look for in a used cart. Obviously some are acceptable and others are down right dangerous. Being a newbie I wouldn't which is which. Okay, down right dangerous I would know...hopefully, but those faults that fall in between are the ones that concern me.

For everyone else,

Thank you for the responses. But I would like to clear something up, as I have gotten a couple pm's over it.

I'm afraid that some things I had written were taken the wrong way. I was NOT in any way trashing my trainer! I apologize if that was the way it seemed. He is a wonderful guy who has done many great things with my horse. He took this horse literally from a nervous basket case to a nice driving horse. Yes, I did say he made a face about a certain brand of cart that I inquired about, and that he said "it was funky to use". While I do wish he would give me the "why" behind his opinion, I still respect his opinion. He came very HIGHLY recommended to me from some of the best breeders in the industry.

The only reason I was inquiring on other options for a cart...(going against his recommendation of Jerald) is because money is tight, and I can NOT afford a Jerald. I will take Lucy's advise and look on Craigslist. I hadn't thought of the option.

Thanks again to everyone. I hope I have cleared up any mis-understandings.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jan 11, 2010)

I certainly didn't think you were trashing your trainer, but the only one who can answer why he thinks Grabers are "funky" is your trainer!



The rest of us think they're just fine.



I bought some locking nuts and nylon washers for parts that kept trying to work loose or were squeaking on mine and that solved the problem nicely for under $2.

Closed-wheel carts in general, be they Graber or Jerald, have a narrower wheelbase than open-wheel carts. Open-wheel Graber carts sit lower than closed-wheel ones with the same size tire (I'm not sure about Jerald.) The Grabers are definitely less fancy than the Jeralds when looking at close details but they are also lighter and look perfectly nice from where the judge is standing.



I have similar budget issues to you and chose to buy a new Graber rather than wait forever for a good used Jerald to show up in my area and price range with the options I wanted. As others said, carts hold their value well so if I found one later I could sell the Graber for about what I paid for it and use that as a down payment.

As Lucy explained there are really four main brands of show carts but Graber and Jerald are the two easiest to find and buy. I think Boinky here on the forum makes show carts as well, you might talk to her about what you're looking for. Double Diamond has started making them too now that I think about it. The advantage of a currently produced name brand is that if a part fails you can easily buy a replacement and know it will fit. With Houghton out of business it might be difficult to replace anything that breaks or buy new covers or dashes or such.

The other thing to remember is that whichever brand you buy, you can talk to the manufacturer about customizing it. I know with CDE (combined driving event) carts you can usually order the seat deeper or wider or the floorboards further down for long legs or that sort of thing and they don't even charge extra for it. Don't be afraid to ask for something you want! It took me years to figure that out but driving equipment manufacturers are artists and enjoy making custom items that fit you and your horse. Tell them the size of your horse and your son and see what they think.

Leia


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## Margo_C-T (Jan 13, 2010)

I have seen Grabers; they are a perfectly nice cart, and if your horse is smaller, seem especially suitable!

A word of caution: be careful about "knock-offs' of Jeralds. A gentleman I had as a student a few years ago(trained his horse, then the two of them together),wanting to 'keep it cheap', and without my input, bought a Jerald 'lookalike' from one of the 'national' vendors of mini equipment--apparently they had someone building it for them--the thing 'appeared' much like an open-wheeled Jerald at first glance, BUT...as he drove, from a rear view you could see the axle SAG in the middle! This man is average in size, not thin, but certainly not fat/heavy...yet the cart wasn't built to properly support even him.

The 'finish' was very poor,too--and, the cart's balance just wasn't right; I had to constantly remind him to sit not just 'up straight', but to sit back, to the point that his rear almost hung over the wingback seat edge!-not really desirable, but necessary to keep there from being WAY too much weight in the tug loops(and therefore, directly on the horse's back!) Thankfully, he got the 'inside track' on a used Jerald for sale locally, and had sense enough to snap it up--to his horse's benefit! Since this same fellow had earlier also bought a very poor quality homemade EE pipe cart--again, trying to 'keep it cheap' -AND, not knowing a THING about what constitutes a balanced and properly usable cart! It caused the mini we were working with to act dangerously; I saw right off what it HAD to be, when he brought that cart over to use w/ his mare, and I told him we could NOT continue to use it--and the mare's issues went away, immediately!

Point is--there are some not-so-good products 'out there', so be aware, and don't hesitate to ask a truly knowledgeable driver for input if you don't know what you are supposed to be looking for!

Good luck!

Margo


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## RhineStone (Jan 13, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> Since this same fellow had earlier also bought a very poor quality homemade EE pipe cart--again, *trying to 'keep it cheap'* -AND, not knowing a THING about what constitutes a balanced and properly usable cart! It caused the mini we were working with to act dangerously; I saw right off what it HAD to be, when he brought that cart over to use w/ his mare, and I told him we could NOT continue to use it--and the mare's issues went away, immediately! Point is--there are some not-so-good products 'out there', so be aware, and don't hesitate to ask a truly knowledgeable driver for input if you don't know what you are supposed to be looking for!
> 
> Good luck!
> 
> Margo


Our motto: "Buy quality, cry once!"

I can't tell you how many times I have seen this happen, especially at the beginner/4-H levels. People think that they can get by cheaply, when in the end they pay more for the whole thing than if they would have bought good equipment to start! If you don't know what you are doing, *cheap COSTS money*! It either doesn't fit, breaks easily, isn't returnable, isn't good enough to move up through the levels, etc.


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## MiLo Minis (Jan 13, 2010)

Jeralds are certainly "cadillacs" but I own a Graber and am VERY happy with it. I added some foam washers between a screw or two and the frame of the cart and have no squeaks. I know others that have had to do similiar things to their Jeralds. I use my Graber for breed ring as well as pleasure shows and it is certainly not "funky" for me! I do enjoy the ride of a Jerald but, like you, can't really afford one at this time and for me the difference in price is not equal to the difference in quality when compared to a Graber. I have an open wheeled Graber with both wire and wood wheels and bars to make it into a legal roadster vehicle.


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## angelspeeper (Jan 13, 2010)

Margo_C-T said:


> I have seen Grabers; they are a perfectly nice cart, and if your horse is smaller, seem especially suitable!
> A word of caution: be careful about "knock-offs' of Jeralds. A gentleman I had as a student a few years ago(trained his horse, then the two of them together),wanting to 'keep it cheap', and without my input, bought a Jerald 'lookalike' from one of the 'national' vendors of mini equipment--apparently they had someone building it for them--the thing 'appeared' much like an open-wheeled Jerald at first glance, BUT...as he drove, from a rear view you could see the axle SAG in the middle! This man is average in size, not thin, but certainly not fat/heavy...yet the cart wasn't built to properly support even him.
> 
> The 'finish' was very poor,too--and, the cart's balance just wasn't right; I had to constantly remind him to sit not just 'up straight', but to sit back, to the point that his rear almost hung over the wingback seat edge!-not really desirable, but necessary to keep there from being WAY too much weight in the tug loops(and therefore, directly on the horse's back!) Thankfully, he got the 'inside track' on a used Jerald for sale locally, and had sense enough to snap it up--to his horse's benefit! Since this same fellow had earlier also bought a very poor quality homemade EE pipe cart--again, trying to 'keep it cheap' -AND, not knowing a THING about what constitutes a balanced and properly usable cart! It caused the mini we were working with to act dangerously; I saw right off what it HAD to be, when he brought that cart over to use w/ his mare, and I told him we could NOT continue to use it--and the mare's issues went away, immediately!
> ...


Thanks for the input...This was the very thing that concerned me! Being a "newbie" not knowing these things. I will keep my eyes open for a used Jerald, but if I can't find one then I will try for a used Graber. I too would rather buy once...cry once. But since money it tight...well, lets see if I get lucky finding a nice used Jerald.

Man I really HATE priorities!!! I had to pass up the wonderful opportunity that LK offered as well. Ooohhh...and they had a little mare and stallion that I just drooled over!!!! But...We MUST relocate first! That is priority number 1!!!!!(which is why I was looking at other carts)


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