# Mini Race: What do you think of this?



## DukeFleurPeek (Aug 30, 2010)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WBmiYVwWPng

I have 2 problems with this race:

1) Cantering or all-out galloping seems to be not only encouraged, but necessary to be even remotely close to the leaders. This gives the public the complete wrong message regarding what minis do and are all about.

2) The winner is a mini owned (trained?) by Casie Coleman, the leading standardbred trainer in Canada and driven by a harness catch-driver. Couldn't they just let the mini people have 5 minutes in the limelight?

What do you think?


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## uwharrie (Aug 30, 2010)

I dont really have an opinion on this race but I understand mini harness racing was very popular in FL a number of years ago. A dog show friend ( and BIG QH breeder) in Ocala told me they used to have races every weekend. ( up until the property sold and new owner dismantled the track)


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## Reble (Aug 30, 2010)

We might be the only ones, but we think it was fine.

Why do mini people think minis do not like to gallop.

If they are conditioned for it, and they enjoy it and it did not look

like it was that far. Why not,

Minis can do anything big horses can.

Our minis go full run all the time from out in pasture and run full speed in for supper and out again if they get their mind to it.

On a windy days just watch them enjoy the run.

JMO


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## Kendra (Aug 30, 2010)

Looks like so much fun!! I was expecting a trotting race, but I know my boy would LOVE an all out gallop around a track like that!


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## DukeFleurPeek (Aug 30, 2010)

I guess part of the problem I have with it si that in the race I participated in, it was clearly stipulated in the rules that the race was to be at a TROT and if there were any breaks in stride, you were to lose ground while you got the horse back to a trot. I trotted straight to the lead only to be passed by gallopers and managed to stay trotting right to the wire where my horse got excited from the crowd noise. I don't see a problem with the cantering if it is spelled out beforehand that it is allowed. The other issue I have as a still novice driver is that I don't really want to encourage my horses to run lest they think bolting is okay. I respect your opinion and absolutely agree minis can do everything the bigger horses can; I guess I feel if they are simulating a harness race and lay out the same rules, it's only fair to the participants to enforce them. Here is a link of my race. I am driving the #3 horse, "Milo Acres Ladies Man


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## Reble (Aug 30, 2010)

yes, we used to race there, the first few years.

No bidding and it is just for fun.


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## DukeFleurPeek (Aug 30, 2010)

Well, any way ya slice it, it was a LOT of fun. I look forward to racing there next year


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 30, 2010)

Very cool! If it is fairly new, maybe they haven't got all the rules ironed out. So many different vehicles and driving styles!

I have a sulky and quick hitch harness that saw use on the Florida tracks.


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## billiethekid40 (Aug 31, 2010)

> 1) Cantering or all-out galloping seems to be not only encouraged, but necessary to be even remotely close to the leaders. This gives the public the complete wrong message regarding what minis do and are all about.


The great thing about minis is that they're "all about" doing a bit of everything. Why shouldn't that include racing well trained and conditioned animals? Mini trotting races do exist where I am sure they are much stricter about the rules, but I don't see a problem with this race either... everyone was allowed to canter/gallop, so nobody had an advantage over anyone else.

Allowing (cueing) your horse to canter in harness does not encourage bolting, but it CAN for sure help if a horse does bolt. Having experience driving at a faster gait can help you gain control of your horse should he bolt or break stride, and having a cue to canter can often lead to fewer unintentional brakes of stride. It also helps the horse to know what cantering in harness feels like, sounds like, etc so its not a new and scary experience if he is already frightened by something. ALSO a race like the one in the video is NOT the place for a new or inexperienced driver.


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## RhineStone (Aug 31, 2010)

If they are not going to enforce their own rules, I wouldn't play that game again. All it would take would be a rule like "no more than 3 canter strides or you are eliminated" and the cantering would stop.

I have no issue with minis cantering in harness, and actually if done on a cue, I think it can do wonders for their hind end development. And I agree that teaching driving horses to canter in the vehicle can help them understand the banging and crashing behind them if they ever get into a bolting situation.

I don't like the idea of letting the horse pop in and out of the canter, like what sometimes happens in CDE cones. That is the horse making decisions. If you allow that to happen and then try to enter a Pleasure show obstacle class, drivers will find they will be eliminated faster than they can blink.

So, canter/gallop if allowed in the rules. If not and other people still canter, don't go. Fairness has to count for something.

Myrna


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## DukeFleurPeek (Aug 31, 2010)

I am in my third year of driving, so while I don't consider myself to be an expert by any means, I also don't consider myself to be "new or inexperienced" and was not nervous or uncomfortable on the track. Maybe "novice" was the wrong choice of words to describe my driving experience. I have a very, very good trainer that has taught me well that I continue to learn from. Thanks for all your input/opinions. I am always open to suggestions and opinions that may further my knowledge of minis and driving particularly.


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## MiLo Minis (Sep 2, 2010)

Not having been to the race at the track in this post I don't know what the rules were so can't really comment on it but the race in Hanover clearly stipulated that it was a TROTTING race and that any horse cantering to the point that it gained a clear advantage would be eliminated. The first 3 horses over the finish line all cantered at one point or another. The horse that placed first cantered/galloped for the entire race and was awarded the win.

The horse that placed second at Hanover (and was after the fact given the blanket for the win) was a VERY nice trotting horse and only broke for a stride or two before he was brought back. Our Minis are very capable of running a trotting race OR a galloping race but it should be stipulated which type is being run beforehand.

Yes horses can canter/gallop in harness and it is good for them to do so occasionally - very relaxing and works different muscles and I see no problem with that.

Yes Miniature Horses are VERY capable and can do most anything full size horses can do.

My problem with the Hanover TROTTING race was that I overheard 2 women talking after the race and it went like this:

First woman:"Aren't they cute! I thought it was supposed to be a trotting race though?"

Second woman(laughing) "They ARE Miniatures, the drivers probably don't know the difference between a trot and a gallop!"

I for one have struggled to get respect for my horses over the years and have been somewhat successful. I resent the fact that this race denigrated our horses and their drivers. When I entered Manny in the race I was assured that it was a trotting race and the rules WOULD be upheld. They weren't. If it wasn't listed in the program as a TROTTING race, rather described as an anything goes race, I wouldn't have a problem with it but to lay out all the rules in the program and then turn around and blatantly ignore them made us look like fools and I won't repeat it.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 2, 2010)

To respond only to the original post at first:



DukeFleurPeek said:


> I have 2 problems with this race:
> 1) Cantering or all-out galloping seems to be not only encouraged, but necessary to be even remotely close to the leaders. *This gives the public the complete wrong message regarding what minis do and are all about.*


Without knowing that this was listed as a trotting only race, I would strongly disagree with this statement. Who said minis are a trotting breed?? As far as I can tell the only reason they are shown in harness is because they're too small to ride. That does not mean they were bred for harness work or that they should be developed strictly as a trotting breed, nor that they must race or compete as one. Minis do and are all about being complete miniatures of their larger cousins, and to me that could easily include galloping races.

A full-sized horse will be taken out of harness and cross trained under saddle to keep them fit and flexible; I can't do that with my mini so I ask him to do all the same things in harness as I'd ask him to do under saddle. He and I much prefer to race and compete at a canter as it's far more comfortable for us both!







DukeFleurPeek said:


> 2) The winner is a mini owned (trained?) by Casie Coleman, the leading standardbred trainer in Canada and driven by a harness catch-driver. Couldn't they just let the mini people have 5 minutes in the limelight?
> What do you think?


I don't know. On the one hand, it's unfair to get beat by a professional in what could essentially be considered an amateur race. On the other hand, it's good publicity when a big-name full-sized horse trainer takes an interest in minis! Assuming, of course, that he or she is serious about it and not doing it as a bit of a gimmick.



What bothered me the most was the way that mini was gaping his mouth in pain almost the entire race. Either he's got a really crappy bit or his "training" leaves a lot to be desired. I suspect both, personally.



DukeFleurPeek said:


> The other issue I have as a still novice driver is that I don't really want to encourage my horses to run lest they think bolting is okay.


I agree with the others. Bolting, per say, is a whole different thing from teaching a horse to canter on cue. Bolting is a scary, scary habit and something to discourage at all costs! Usually that comes from fear or frustration though and has little to do with being allowed to canter. Now breaking pace, on the other hand...*LOL*



RhineStone said:


> I don't like the idea of letting the horse pop in and out of the canter, like what sometimes happens in CDE cones. That is the horse making decisions. If you allow that to happen and then try to enter a Pleasure show obstacle class, drivers will find they will be eliminated faster than they can blink.


That's how Kody first learned to canter in harness and with some mentoring from more experienced drivers I decided to let him go ahead and do it but put it "on cue" so he knew when not to break. He knows "T-ROT" means trot only, canter and die. "Can-TER" means pick up a canter right now, rushing on at trot is not acceptable. And "Okay, Kody, are you ready? Let's go!" means the gait is up to him but I need his top speed and responsiveness. Yes, they get stuck in expecting one thing or the other in a certain environment (like being allowed to switch to and from canter if he's on a cones course) but that's why I make sure we train as many places as possible. I've had him run to a practice hazard, stop at the ingate and slowly walk it then canter at the outgate; we've practiced collected canter in an arena, and strict lengthened trots on a practice cones course with no breaks allowed. Always mix it up!

Anyway, the race was interesting to watch and I agree that if it was written as a straight trotting race with canter penalties then it was completely unfair that the horses who ran were not disqualified. That's rotten! (I would like to see a true "Extreme Mini Race" though that involved galloping cross-country! What fun!)

Leia


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## Margo_C-T (Sep 2, 2010)

As an old barrel racer/pole bender/goat tie-er(NIRA in college and before), I LOVE to go all out! That said, when the race was to be a TROTTING race, with specific penalty for anything more than the briefest canter break, I agree 100% that it was unfair and highly unethical for the win to be awarded to a horse that blatantly broke the rules. I would have let management know how I felt about it, AND I surely wouldn't give them MY entry fee again! What a shameful way to run a competition!

Leia, I LOVE the idea of an 'EXTREME RACE', patterned after Cameron's 'Extreme Cowboy Races'--at least, the ones over natural terrain at his TX ranch--for VSE drivers. Wouldn't that just beat ALL???

YEEEEEHAWWWWW!!!

Margo


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## Minimor (Sep 2, 2010)

Well, if the rules call for galloping, that's okay, but in all honesty I think if it's going to be a galloping race then it just as well be a chariot race. Quite frankly I think that those Minis look a little silly hitched to those carts & galloping around the track--a chariot race would be much more appropriate.

Years ago when I was a kid they had chariot races for the little ponies--minis really, but they weren't registered as such nor even called that. We had friends who had a pair of mini chariot ponies they raced in those races.

If the rules specify it is a trotting race with breaking to a gallop to be penalized, then certainly the rules should be followed. It really shouldn't be that difficult to follow the rules, or at least to enforce the rules if people don't follow them!


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## Peggy Porter (Sep 2, 2010)

Brings back memories of my first (and last) attempt at competing at the county fair. First up was mini cart barrel racing. The rules stated "trot only" with a 3 second penalty for breaking to canter. The winning "run" was a VERY well known youth competitor on the AMHR circuit, who cantered the entire pattern, took his 3 second penalty, and still wound up with the silver platter and ribbon. Were the rules upheld? Technically, yes. But what does that teach a youth about fair competition? The second class was in hand obstacle. Very simple course with one exception. Pull a five gallon jug with a thin (to a horse's eye:invisible)attached string UNDER your horse's belly. My little guy, generally very accepting, did a LOVELY airs-above-the-ground manuever and struck the "threatening" jug with both hind feet in the air. The only competitors to complete this part of the course just HAPPENED to board their minis at the farm of the person who supplied the obstacles. What a coincidence, hmmm? Then came the pleasure class. We were asked for the extended trot just as I reached the corner of the arena where the oompa-oompa organist was playing. Break to a canter for 3 strides right in front of the judge. Oh well I lost that one fair and square. Or so I thought. The winning horse reared and almost flipped the cart over at the same spot in the arena, but apparently the judge "missed" it and placed them first. I probably would not have noticed all 3 instances, but I did have a "groom" there to video and help me, and she was just appalled at the way things were run. As I said, first and last county fair. I now compete CDE, where the judge can't have her back to the shenanigans in the dressage arena; the balls fall off the cones and are tallied against the stop watches; and there is at least 2 monitors at each obstacle. The only place to cheat MAY be on course in section E, and most whips I have met are having too much FUN to think about cheating! I will still occasionaly do a pleasure show just to fill classes and ensure that they continue to have them. Mostly I trail drive, do 1 or 2 CDEs a year, and have a blast at the National Drive. This kind of racing looks like great FUN, and I would definitely like to try it, either at a canter or at a trot, whichever the rules state.


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## Sue_C. (Sep 3, 2010)

> The winning "run" was a VERY well known youth competitor on the AMHR circuit, who cantered the entire pattern, took his 3 second penalty, and still wound up with the silver platter and ribbon. Were the rules upheld? Technically, yes.


Our rules state that there is ONE allowable break, and up to two others will incur a 5 second penalty each...three breaks and you are disqualified. Also a disqualification, is a break that is not immediately corrected. NO, that wouldn't have stood even on a technicality. A break is a short break in gait...not a complete trasition to another gait, which is what that competitor did. I would have stated a complaint to the office, and the judge...it can be done properly...and they will never learn to run the show correctly if not advised of past mistakes. Were I the parent of this child, I would of given him a piece of my mind for potentially ruining a good harness horse by teaching it that to break continuously is allowable, and made him/her take the ribbon and prizes back to be given to the proper winner.


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## ~Lisa~ (Sep 3, 2010)

I think it is adorable and looks like fun. Not sure why it would not be what minis are about. Obviously for these racer it is exactly what minis are about!

As far as cantering in harness I think it is something every horse should do. Much better for them to feel what it is about and know it is not the end of the world prior to them being afraid of something and bolting I am not a avid or experienced driver but just seems like common sense to me?


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## Sue_C. (Sep 3, 2010)

> As far as cantering in harness I think it is something every horse should do. Much better for them to feel what it is about and know it is not the end of the world prior to them being afraid of something and bolting I am not a avid or experienced driver but just seems like common sense to me?


TEACHING a harness horse to canter on COMMAND is one thing...but I don't think there was any teaching going on here. Tt was full-tilt run amok, (and clearly cheating) from what I see...mouths gaping etc...and the fact it was a trotting race...that is the thing.

Even a riding horse, when asked to trot, should only trot...not continuoulsy break into an unasked for canter. A trotting race horse, doesn't canter...neither does a pacer...so why should a mini in a trotting race be allwed to when it is specifically against the rules...and then they were awarded the ribbons? They will soon find themselves with no one else competing...what a loss of a great opportunity to show folks what fun the minis are.


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## RhineStone (Sep 3, 2010)

Sue_C. said:


> Our rules state that there is ONE allowable break, and up to two others will incur a 5 second penalty each...three breaks and you are disqualified. Also a disqualification, is a break that is not immediately corrected. NO, that wouldn't have stood even on a technicality.


Depending on the class, ADS rules for timed obstacles have 5 second penalties each for the 1st, 2nd, and 3rd breaks to canter. 4th is elimination and prolonged canter is elimination. In some classes where there is no "time", they use other methods to penalize cantering. A break to canter is defined as 3 strides if advantage has been gained, and 6 strides if no advantage has been gained (horse canters slower than it trots). Yes, there is some judging subjectiveness included in these rules, but as long as the judge is consistent, it is fair. Using those styles of rules for the races would help the organizers. What do the Standardbred races have for galloping rules, or won't those horses gallop at all?





The only time I have seen the ADS rules be a "challenge" is in multiples where the rules state that ALL horses have to break to canter for it to count. My husband won Multiples Scurry this year at a show. The leader almost never quit cantering, but the wheeler didn't break, so the cantering didn't count. (The wheeler is way faster than the leader, so he really didn't have an advantage, because the leader isn't that fast.) I also saw this work to an advantage at Walnut Hill, where the near wheeler in a Unicorn wouldn't pop a shoulder into a canter, but the driver deliberately had the other two horses canter the entire course, probably knowing that wheeler wouldn't break. (That was an advantage, as that turnout was WAY faster than any other turnout in that class.) In singles, this is never a problem with the way the rules are written. Nobody wants to chance elimination.

Yes, I'm not a big fan of county fair shows, because a lot of times they hire judges who don't know squat about driving. I think it is silly to pay for a judge's opinion when it isn't an educated one. I might as well pay some guy on the street!





Myrna


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## ~Lisa~ (Sep 3, 2010)

Well I am not sure these are trotting race minis I am not saying the OP is wrong (although as a side note I would love to know which one of these horses is the OP ) I am saying I did not enter I did not see the rules and the discussion was(or at least the part I was responding to) was not are they breaking he rules but this is bad now people will think this is what minis are all about

I can not judge the training any of these horses have or do not have simply due to the fact they are running in this short race- to me that does not mean they are not cantering or galloping on command they were told to do so from the drivers as it appears anyway.

It is very possible in fact I would guess probable that these minis are great drivers who do not spend the majority of their time in harness running amok and they save that for these type of short and fun races - Well at least at this point seeing as I do not know any of them personally or the time or amount of training any of the horses have it is just something I am going to have to go with as being probable.


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## DukeFleurPeek (Sep 3, 2010)

I think what I was trying to say but somehow it got lost in my phrasing was that these "races" are supposed to simulate actual harness races and with the minis galloping and cantering around the track, it was likely the public would get the impression that they could not maintain the trotting gait. I admit I did not consider that cantering may have been permitted or even encouraged, but I seriously doubt it. A standardbred trainer that I know told me that the horses that participated in the Georgian Downs race were required to perform a time trial and "qualify" to participate. I assumed the time trial was at the trot, but I guess it is possible I could have been wrong. Through a number of your posts I have learned some new things about driving minis, so I am grateful for that.


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## Sue_C. (Sep 3, 2010)

They have held quite a few mini races at the raceway in Charlottetown PEI, and they trot only. the whole reason the use a standardbred track, is to "copy" the race horses that regularly race there, and no harness Standardbred race horse is ever allowed to canter.

There are other places that minis are races in North America...actually have heard of some very big purses...and the gait is always at a trot.


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## DukeFleurPeek (Sep 3, 2010)

> Well I am not sure these are trotting race minis I am not saying the OP is wrong (although as a side note I would love to know which one of these horses is the OP


The "OP" did not participate in the "EXTREME Mini" race at Georgian Downs, but I did drive the #3 horse in this

race that trotted the entire trip as specified in the rules then broke either right on or just after the wire from reacting to the crowd yelling. You will notice that 2 of the 3 horses in front of me cantered the whole race . As for the name of the Georgian race, it was part of an event dubbed EXTREME day because each race was had something unusual about it, such as a 1/8th of a mile dash, 5/8 of a mile dash, a 5 lap marathon, a race contested counter-clockwise etc. 
Here is a link to a first-person account of my race at Hanover that I wrote and submitted to a horseracing publication in Toronto, Ontario.

http://www.downthest...007/page16.html (scroll to the bottom of the page)


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## Carriage (Sep 4, 2010)

DukeFleurPeek said:


> The "OP" did not participate in the "EXTREME Mini" race at Georgian Downs, but I did drive the #3 horse in this


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## Sue_C. (Sep 4, 2010)

> Competitive barrel racing would be fun as well.


We here compete in barrel racing, poles, obstacle cones and all kinds of fun game-stuff. (It too, is all at the trot.)

There is a competative trail challenge coming up next month that is being offered to the minis...sure wish I could make it, but will be away...some friends are going though. that will be gtreat to get the driving horses/minis into a competition with the riding horses...gives everyone a chance to see what we can actually do in harness.


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## susanne (Sep 4, 2010)

Mingus hears you, Bob...he says "Just tell me when and where," especially on the endurance trail drives!


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