# Congress - Financial Woes



## Norlea (Oct 18, 2009)

The comment has come up that the Congress or for that matter, the AMHR Nationals financial reports are not available to members. YES THEY ARE, all you have to do is ask Joe in accounting for it.... I called Joe just to confirm what I already knew. He stated there are no secrets in his office and your welcome to call and request information from him.. You the member have a right to ask for any information of the registry!!

So with that, please call and get the reports. I am sure you can ask Joe anything you want.... He will answer your questions.

I personally would like a more detailed report with the expenses broke down into more categories. I have heard this complaint before. The Seven-Year Analysis does not tell us where we are spending the money.

I feel we cannot continual to operate the Congress at a loss. This year $29,789.18. IN THE RED.

Over the last seven years $130,000.00 plus has been lost on the Congress.... We need to figure out how to change it..... Obviously we are not sticking to a budget or there is no budget to the Congress?? Please do not tell me we lost it on the stalls, we did not, we made $31,705 on stalls and please do not tell me we picked up an extra day... Base rent flat fee of $25,000 same as last year. Yes, that Facility may have cost more, but we made more is as far stalls.

I see we did the concession stand this year $565.00 in food/refreshments last three years "Zero".

We made $273.00 in shavings, typically a facility with give you a kick back of 50 cent to $1.00 on every bag sold. I asked Cathy in the office what was the count of horses... She stated 515 even though the analysis sheet states 535. Regardless, at 500 horses and a minimum of 2 bags per horse we should have seen $500 to $1000.00 profit on shavings. If you tell me we only got a QUARTER kick back then the budget crew should have passed that QUARTER on to the exhibitors as the goal here is to break-even, not lose $29,000.

All Things Equine – Trophies:

Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.

Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies. Does this make sense that the Nationals awards are less then the Congress?? The mini Nationals supports ifself, when is the Congress going to do the same?

Bottom line, show expenses increased by $22,000 plus and revenue increased by ony $5,068.45. If you had a show program printed you would see more of an additional losse to the $29,000 as the program book cost $3,365.18 in 2008, but there was no show program because we couldn't afford it in the budget!

The Congress is a heck of a deal with $65.00 stalls, $30 Open, $20 Amateur, $10 Youth class entries fees, $5.00 office fee per horse, etc. for the exhibitor compared to other national level shows, with the awards & ribbon budget way over the top!!!! I am not for increasing costs to the exhibitor as you will never make up the difference of $29,00 plus for the Congress by increasing the fees but we do need be realistic about the fees. With the amount of money that is spent on awards and ribbons, we need to have a reality check that we have CHAMPAGNE taste with BEET BUDGET revenue for this show.

The question we should ask, how are we covering these losses?? That is the question, exactly how have we covered a deficit of $130,000.00 on Congress these past years?? Something has got to change to achieve a break-even event!!!!

*I know of no institution out there that would continual to give its blessings to losses like this?*


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## Lilac Lane Farm (Oct 18, 2009)




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## Magic (Oct 18, 2009)

Norlea said:


> ,All Things Equine – Trophies:Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.
> 
> Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies. Does this make sense that the Nationals awards are less then the Congress?? The mini Nationals supports ifself, when is the Congress going to do the same?
> 
> ...




No, it doesn't make sense that the awards for Congress cost so much more than the awards for Miniature Nationals, especially when Nationals has, what, THREE TIMES the number of equines entered? But the majority of the people running the AMHR are "pony people" and the ponies are the most important feature to them, and the miniatures are just a way to help finance them. Flame me if you must, but it's true.


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## kaykay (Oct 18, 2009)

> Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies


How can you compare these two figures when one shows a total and the other does not?? To really compare you would have to know the total for Nationals INCLUDING ribbons and youth trophies

Reasons Congress Doesnt Make Money

Very little promotion

Paying for horseshowonline instead of using the horsestudbook.com

Moving the location (Congress has no "home" so people cannot plan ahead to attend)

Poor negotiating for facilities

I have been given so many different numbers on the horses that attended. I was told at Congress it was 535. But several directors have said it was much lower. Seems odd that we cannot get a firm number of horses that attended

Please lets not do the "pony people vs mini people thing" It really doesnt help anything. Most of the people I know are like myself and own both Miniatures and Shetlands. Its not us against them. Its us


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## Minimor (Oct 18, 2009)

So, what was the amount for the ribbons and youth trophies for AMHR Nationals, and who paid for those?


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## SweetOpal (Oct 18, 2009)

I would have to say that the totals have got to be incorrect on the awards, as we don't even get a reserve award like nationals, so that would be double the awards for nationals verses congress. We only get a horse head for the champion in each class, second place gets a ribbon a red one just like all the other ribbons in the show. I also remember that the coolers were donated by Raydon from what I heard anyways.

Also it appears to me that the fees we have been paying for these facilities are ridiculous. I am hoping that with our great deal in Oklahoma we will make a profit.

I would think that before we begin to think about tossing in the towel on our Congress that we should consider the amount of money spent on the show program, that does not seem to work for all. I think we could afford the loss of 4 congress's verses one year of the horsestudbook.com. Also I think a change in venue that is much more reasonable and perhaps a budget that is stuck too.

I too like Kay am not sure where this 535 horses thing is coming in as I remember specifically asking the stewards how many horses were measure and remember it being something along the lines 519, however the mentioned that there were several of those horses that got measured for both aspc and aspr, so that would likely be less than 500 horses.

I am a pony only exhibitor and I do see a problem with this, this is an issue, a big one, however we need to know if this is show management or office problems that are causing the inconsistancies of the financial report.


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## Norlea (Oct 18, 2009)

Minimor said:


> So, what was the amount for the ribbons and youth trophies for AMHR Nationals, and who paid for those?



We do not have the figures for the ribbons for Nationals

I was only comparing the trophy awards for both show and then added the ribbons/coolers for the Congress. it is stated the ribbons for nationals was not included yet....

The national show pays for itself as the revenue for that show does not exceed the expenses. The miniature members support that show, it pays for itself.


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## Norlea (Oct 18, 2009)

*Please understand I am not stating to toss in the towel for Congress,* I did not say that, I did say I know of no institution that would give its blessing to these kind of losses on an event over a seven year run..

What I think the registry should do is look at the problems of why we are losing money and make adjustments. Spending on any event should be relevant to the revenue, I am not so concerned about making profit, just break-even. Is that too much to ask?

It was suggested that I post the Seven Year Anlysis, I didn't because the max upload was more the 46K. But as Belinda stated on the other thread, anyone could call the office and ask for it..... We as directors want to give you straight answers. So ask away.... that is your right as a member...

If I can get someone who is better at this then I am to shrink the statment and send it to this board, then I will email it to them. Joe did state to me he does give this statement out at the convention. I know it is included the handouts when he goes over the finances in the general membership meeting....

Thanks,

Lea


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## ruffian (Oct 18, 2009)

Not to upset anybody, but the miniature horse is carrying the pony. End of story.

Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.

Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.

The ponies are just not supporting themselves. I don't know the reason.

I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.

In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I'm probably not saying this right - I am not against ponies. I am saying that the average joe or jane with their kids can typically take a miniature, or 2 or 5, and even with limited horse experience enjoy owning and showing a miniature. This is not necessarily true with a show pony.

If the Congress or Pony World is not supporting itself it needs to be scaled back. But this has been an on-going issue for years, so I doubt it will be solved soon.


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## Belinda (Oct 18, 2009)

> I see we did the concession stand this year $565.00 in food/refreshments last three years "Zero".


To first address this one !! Yes there is a cost there, but then if you look down under operating expense under Meals & refreshments we had charges there every year until 2009 !!!!! so guess you might say they did not buy snacks and sent them to the snack bar !!





Next it does cost when you add another day !! One more day of judges expenses one more day of Hotel , 2 more Judges for Futurity more hotel more airfare , more meals !!

Oh wait then we added Classes , we added a Under divison to the Modern Pleasure Halter and then over & under in the Driving, Then in Classic's we split the Amateur into Over & under , and Oh wait then we split the Classic Country Pleasure driving into over and under , and if I am not mistaken we added more ASPR classes. !!!!

Everything I have mentioned DOES ADD EXPENSE TO A SHOW..!! Granted one thing you got right we sure don't charge much to enter this show , and a $5.00 office fee is less than I pay on the local level.. I have looked at prices for other National shows and we are way under , I mean way under !!!

Believe me I am not saying that we should ignore this by any means , but I think if we are going to start painting gloom & doom pictures , you should put ALL THE FACT OF THE SHOW NOT JUST PICK AND CHOOSE WHICH ONES TO PUT OUT THERE.. We all have known that Congress has been loosing money , thus was the reason we work our tails off to find a location for a better price... Heck don't cook the goose before we have had time to try make this at least a break even deal..


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## ruffian (Oct 18, 2009)

Not to upset anybody, but the miniature horse is carrying the pony. End of story.

Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.

Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.

The ponies are just not supporting themselves. I don't know the reason.

I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.

In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I'm probably not saying this right - I am not against ponies. I am saying that the average joe or jane with their kids can typically take a miniature, or 2 or 5, and even with limited horse experience enjoy owning and showing a miniature. This is not necessarily true with a show pony.

If the Congress or Pony World is not supporting itself it needs to be scaled back. But this has been an on-going issue for years, so I doubt it will be solved soon.


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## Frankie (Oct 18, 2009)

As someone who has just made the move to ponies, on a small scale, I certainly do not like those figures. I want to show and it would be nice for the shows to be there. I will be supporting my local shows, we all need to do that.

Instead of b#tch*ng about it, I plan to get a hold of my board, not to complain, but to ask, how can I help?

I understand all the concern that has been voiced here.

If we want to see a turn around, we need to be a part of the solution.

Belinda, what can I and others do to help?


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## Jill (Oct 18, 2009)

(in the hopes of some smiles or a laugh)...

These days on any forum other than a horse related one, that topic title would be the start of a *hot* political thread!!!


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## osu_barrelracer (Oct 18, 2009)

No matter what the circumstances or issues, that large of a loss deffinitely needs to be addressed, and changes made. It will be interesting to see how it goes next year with the move to Ardmore. Either way, I know we will be there


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## Sue_C. (Oct 18, 2009)

> These days on any forum other than a horse related one, that topic title would be the start of a hot political thread!!!


Which, BTW, are not allowed here...so let's not even go there.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 18, 2009)

kaykay said:


> > Awards for the Congress - $16,595.25, with ribbons and cooler - total $26,300.80.Awards for the Mini Nationals - $14,417.16, does not include ribbons or youth trophies
> 
> 
> How can you compare these two figures when one shows a total and the other does not?? To really compare you would have to know the total for Nationals INCLUDING ribbons and youth trophies
> ...


I agree that while not comparable the $ amount for awards seems crazy for congress since they have so many fewer classes and horses per class compared to Nationals but would have to see a further break down

The numbers would be different in part based on the ASPR ponies- ponies could be counted twice as both Moderns and ASPR when in actuality it is the same pony.

As far as using horseshowsonline well fact is in the opinion of everyone I have talked to anyway it is simply a better program all the way around at least for those viewing and I am guessing from those using it.

I am glad to hear as a side note we finally quit paying such a well lets call it goofy amount of money monthly for our computer program... just a few months of that program could fund a heck of a lot of shows... but that is another fish to fry lol

I do not think Congress needs to end that is not a realistic suggestion. We all know that yes the minis are funding the registry plain and simple no one is disputing that.

I am not sure what the answer is and perhaps as Belinda said it is lets wait and see what happens in 2010 lets wait and see if this location -this facility - our show program somehow becoming user friendly for those looking for immeadiate updates (like any National show should have) and for those doing the office work.. perhaps when all those things combine together it will end up in a very financially successful Congress I think there can be no answers until then although I do hope a further breakdown will be available at Convetion of expenses.


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## Lewella (Oct 18, 2009)

ruffian said:


> Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.


The reason pony numbers are lower than mini numbers at shows is really quite simple - population. There are over two times as many AMHR weanling stallions registered per year as there are total ASPC new registrations for all ages, all genders per year.

Fiscal Year 2008:

Total Shetland new registrations 1195

Total AMHR new registrations 8676 (2748 weanling stallions)

When you think about it, it is really amazing the number of Shetlands that show! I doubt there is another registery in the country that can boast national show attendance so close to 50% of their total animals registered that year!


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 18, 2009)

Lewella said:


> The reason pony numbers are lower than mini numbers at shows is really quite simple - population. There are over two times as many AMHR weanling stallions registered per year as there are total ASPC new registrations for all ages, all genders per year.
> Fiscal Year 2008:
> 
> Total Shetland new registrations 1195
> ...


Hmmmm interesting point Lewella- I do look forward to this discussion at Nationals and hope there can be some ways to save money and in turn save the show


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## Yaddax3 (Oct 18, 2009)

Just a thought ...

Why not consider moving AMHR Nationals into August -- before kids, who are supposed to be important to the registry, start school -- and moving Shetland Congress later in August ...

And hold them at the same facility and at the same time over three weekends? If classes are started on the first Saturday, there would be enough time to hold all the classes for AMHR Nationals and Shetland Congress over the ensuing 15 days.

Area Nationals combine minis and Shetlands so, in the interest of saving money and maybe attracting more exhibitors and horses, why not hold AMHR Nationals and Shetland Congress concurrently?

As an exhibitor who shows at Shetland Congress and AMHR Nationals, I'd much prefer this to having to take off from work a week in August and two weeks in September.

I'm guessing there are plenty of reasons to object to this thought. But the financial losses incurred by Shetland Congress suggest something different needs to be done.


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## Norlea (Oct 19, 2009)

I am not trying to misrepresent anything here on the Congress. I am not picking and choosing Belinda?

Bottom line is we lost $29,789.18 this year. We lost $12,455.55. last year, before that we lost 25,728, year before that, $26, 990. on and on... So what justifies adding days and judges, splitting classes? We need to tighten the budget and maybe give up a little to make it break even, not add to it.....

Belinda, your right on the meals and expenses, I did miss that on the expense page....

I am more then willing to send the Analysis sheet out to someone who can post it, as I can't get it to upload because of the max on the size... Everyone is entitled to it .. Belinda you have it, can you post it on the boards? As far being accused of picking and choosing to make the Congress appear to be doomed before we get to Ardmore, I would like to give you my Analysis for year 2010. You can all decide for yourself.

As far as a break even deal at the new location. I can tell you the details of the terms as Belinda and I sat down with the facilitator Tim Lynch and negotiated the terms. We will end up with covering the facility costs with renting out 400 stalls.... In fact we will come out ahead -- $2,160.00. Then with the additional sale of stalls – figured on 160 -- We will make an additional $6,560.00 for a total in the black of $8,720.00 with the facility paid for. Also this includes making a bit on the on the shavings based on the sale of 1000 bags (this was figured by averaging 2 bags to a stall - 500 pony stalls sold, also a $2,000 grant given by the City of Ardmore. The price of the facility also includes AC in the huge Coliseum. Remember even if we do not sell the extra 160 stalls -- we still have the facility paid for with 400 stalls. With that said... Yes, this portion of the expense (Facility, Stalls) -- we will see a plus sign..

But now we have to bring in the revenue of entries, vendors and sponsorships in order to offset the operating costs of the show. If they remain about the same as this year, the operating cost was $74,818. This did not include the program book this year, last year the program cost was $3,365.18. So with the current budget of this year for operating cost including the program book -- we could be looking at $78,000 operating cost.

(Operating costs are items such as: Stewards, judges, trophies, ribbons, management fees, show support personal, misc. expenses, printing programs show personal, accommodations, Ins).

Congress this year made $175.00 on hook-ups. Congress Sponsorship $455.75, Vendors $200 and Sponsor tables brought in $273.00. Entry fees netted $39,156.25, The total revenue of $48,915.00 on the above mentioned items.

Remember this does not include the stalls and shavings from this years Congress as I broke that out above. We will be cover the costs of the facility, with a guarantee of profit $2,160.00 based on 400 stalls rented and profit of $6,560.00 based on the rental of an additional 160 stalls. In actuality, the Stall income at the Congress this year paid for the facility, which it should! The Cloverdale facility costs of shaving , stalls, concession, hook-up, ring side tables were $49,024.00, we netted $49,387 on stalls and shavings.

I am showing you the $48,915.00 entry, vendor & sponsorship revenue to realize that the operating costs of $78,00 far exceed the $48,915.00 revenue we currently took in for the Congress 2009. Even after the facility is paid for we will not come out ahead with the existing operating costs. You would have to *Double the Entry Income *to cover the operating expenses of this show.

So if we do not scale down the operating expenses of this show, it will operate at a deficit no matter where you locate it or how much you promote it!!




Do not mean to start a war or mislead anyone, this is how I see it from this Analysis sheet on the Congress.



Belinda said:


> > I see we did the concession stand this year $565.00 in food/refreshments last three years "Zero".
> 
> 
> To first address this one !! Yes there is a cost there, but then if you look down under operating expense under Meals & refreshments we had charges there every year until 2009 !!!!! so guess you might say they did not buy snacks and sent them to the snack bar !!
> ...


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## dmk (Oct 19, 2009)

so why don't you take this discussion to one of the pony forums rather than the mini forum


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## Cedar Ridge Farm (Oct 19, 2009)

dmk said:


> so why don't you take this discussion to one of the pony forums rather than the mini forum


I agree. I won't even get into trying to defend my ponies against these that have never handled them. Let's talk Pony to the pony people!


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## Norlea (Oct 19, 2009)

This is not about defending ponies, or handling ponies, it is about the finances of the registry and how we need to turn the deficit of a show into a break even situation which concerns all members of the registry not just pony owners or the attendees of the Congress...

I guess we need a forum on the business of running a business. Maybe we need a forum on the finances of the registry itself and how to pay the bills of this organization or better yet "How is the Money Spent". There seems to be so many questions by members that feel go unanswered or are given wrong answers or escalate into unfounded hearsay.

No one means to offend the pony owners! The question was asked about getting straight answers from a director. I started a new topic putting it straight up on the Congress and the money lost as there was questions on how to obtain a financial picture of the Congress.

Don't mean to offend any pony owners! But it does seem we have members that are offended we have this situation year after year.



Cedar Ridge Farm said:


> dmk said:
> 
> 
> > so why don't you take this discussion to one of the pony forums rather than the mini forum
> ...


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## kaykay (Oct 19, 2009)

> In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.


First of all I have owned ponies for 9 years and have never shod one and yes we show them and that includes our Modern Pleasure mare we showed.

Secondly if you have never owned a pony you really cannot make the above statement. Great childrens ponies are NOT few and far between and we have entire families that show with their kids and grandkids.

But anyway that is not what this topic is about. Its about making Congress at least break even and hopefully someday make a profit. I have been told for years that no one really wants Congress to make a profit. Obviously if you keep moving a show you are going to decrease attendance. And if you spend ZERO dollars promoting and advertising that show you are not doing it right. And you have to have a negotiator that deals with the facilities to get the best deal. I dont know who negotiated our 2nd year at Cloverdale but wow we so overpaid for that facility






If you read the report there are several figures that do not make sense so Im not sure what to think.


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## dmk (Oct 19, 2009)

I simply meant, if not meant to stir something up why post on the mini forum? This topic is about ponies and there is a pony forum for pony topics? What is the reason?


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## ruffian (Oct 19, 2009)

'Secondly if you have never owned a pony you really cannot make the above statement. Great childrens ponies are NOT few and far between and we have entire families that show with their kids and grandkids.

But anyway that is not what this topic is about. Its about making Congress at least break even and hopefully someday make a profit. I have been told for years that no one really wants Congress to make a profit. Obviously if you keep moving a show you are going to decrease attendance. And if you spend ZERO dollars promoting and advertising that show you are not doing it right. And you have to have a negotiator that deals with the facilities to get the best deal. I dont know who negotiated our 2nd year at Cloverdale but wow we so overpaid for that facility sad.gif

If you read the report there are several figures that do not make sense so Im not sure what to think."

It is what this thread is about. Why isn't Congress paying for itself. Because the pony isn't as popular as the miniature horse. It isn't, in many cases, as easy to handle or show. So fewer people have them, fewer people show them, and the pony shows don't make money.

That said - ASPC/AMHR needs to decide if we want to continue to carry the cost of the Congress and World show. Do we want to carry the costs of having ASPC/AMHR local shows where 2-4 ponies show up and 80 - 100 miniatures show up. I am not as I said against ponies. I am very impressed when they go flying around the ring full throttle in cart. But I am not impressed when there are 100 classes on the show bill and 2 ponies on the grounds.

It's not fair to the miniature people to pay for the ribbons that go unused year after year.

It's very difficult to understand costs without reviewing the full report. Those interested need to contact the office and get a copy. In these tough economic times belts need to be tightened. We as a registry cannot keep throwing money away when the exhibitors clearly aren't supporting the shows.


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## kaykay (Oct 19, 2009)

Seriously what all of us members need to truly be upset about is the HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS of dollars spent on horsestudbook.com That makes Congress loses look tiny compared to what we have spent on that program.

I have seen a huge upswing in the amount of new people buying Shetland ponies so the future is bright for the American Shetland pony. And as Lewellas post shows that is a fantastic number showing up at Congress given the huge disparity in Shetland vs Miniature numbers.



> When you think about it, it is really amazing the number of Shetlands that show! I doubt there is another registery in the country that can boast national show attendance so close to 50% of their total animals registered that year!


That statement is very telling and people really need to look at that.

How many ponies show up locally has a lot to do with the area you live in and the classes offered. We have good numbers here. I have been asked to attend other new shows that added pony classes and I would love to do that but you have to put together a good class list to get people to attend. Too many that add pony classes add the bare minimum which makes it not financially feasible for people like me to bring their ponies.

There is for sure a better way to put on Congress. But I am not a director so cannot do much except email or call my directors and give my input which I do all the time


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## Karen S (Oct 19, 2009)

Bob,

Several have tried to look at combining both the Congress and Mini Nationals at Tulsa. Congress is only five days, where Mini Nationals is eleven days. Some people claim they can't take off work that much and the trainers are saying they can't haul both types of horses. If I was with a trainer and I wanted my horses to attend, I would have NO problem hauling my horses for my trainer to get them to the show if we did combine the two. I would bet there would be a lot of folks that would try their darnest to get them there. We even could mix the Shetland classes into the Miniature classes just like they do at the local level, still run and eleven day show and we can call it a "World" Show now. Most of the people that are hired with the exception of the judges also run mini nationals. Now we can hire the number of judges needed to judge both types of horses, but those horses that are double registered WOULD have to choose which way they are going to show, just like they do on the local level. One year they can show as miniatures, the next year as a Shetland. Then I think we could start seeing some turn around in cost.

Again, this is just something to think about.

Karen


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 19, 2009)

dmk said:


> so why don't you take this discussion to one of the pony forums rather than the mini forum



Umm how about cause bottom line it is not talking ponies it is talking dollars and we all know the facts are the facts and WE THE MINIATURE HORSE REGISTRY fund the ASPC/ASPR registry that is the facts no disputing them.

We funded the losses year after year while the show expenses grow, we funded the Ohio World show for years so please do not tell me this does not involve us (by the way I have a pony and am a "pony" person as well) this involves our registry.

Take a step back here and tell me honestly.. do you think if Nationals was losing this much money year after year that the much smaller and much less financially supportive ASPC portion of our registry would sit back quietly?

It is not about pitting one against the other it is about looking at the facts letting all those know about the facts and then trying to figure out how to not get rid of Congress but instead make Congress a show that is profitable not losing thousand upon thousands of dollars.


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## Minimor (Oct 19, 2009)

ruffian--buy generic ribbons--most shows have extra ribbons on hand, so if they all look the same what does it matter which classes don't use them??? Our local show just buys ribbons that say "Manitoba International" No year, no class names, no Shetland/Miniature designation. Works very well.

Ponies aren't really so different to handle. People that haven't had them just THINK they are more difficult, because of the pony's reputation for being disagreeable and hard to handle. People think Minis are "horses" and so believe that they are nothing like ponies. In reality they're all about the same. Just like minis, where some are quieter and some are hotter, ponies also come in all sorts, from "plug" to hot, and anywhere in between.


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## LostInOz (Oct 19, 2009)

1) Proposal: Have members sell sponsorships to the show. If a member sells a $250 sponsorship they get one free stall for the show. If they sell $500 sponsor, they get a free stall and a one class entry free. Etc. Get some income. Did I see somewhere that we only had $450 in sponsors?????? If so, that is pitiful I've run OPEN shows where I've had more income in sponsorships than that.

2) forgive me if I'm wrong, but my understanding is the same person(s) have been in charge of Congress for a number of years. Why isn't a change of management being addressed?

3) sell stalls in advance. If you want a primo spot you pay a primo price. Stalls near the in gate- or other blocks of primo spots could go for $85/stall vs. $65 for any randomly assigned stalls

4) Congress info/ entry info came out WAAY TOO LATE this year. It needs to be out, IN FULL, by June 1. Not 1/2 of it by July 10th and the rest of it later.(didn't find exhibitor rules/info for 2 weeks after entries came out)

5) yes, entry fees are too low. I hate to say it, but our local shows are more expensive. all fees need to go up by $10 - maybe by $5 the first year to prepare everyone rather than give us all "sticker shock".

6) When the business if hurting you don't just up your fees- you will lose the rest of your customer base- you have to give something back in return. How about getting local restaurants to donate gift certificates for free meals or BOGO meals. Have daily drawings for those gift certs. The local economy gets a boost for having us there. Exhibitors have a chance at a free meal. ASPC doesn't have to pay more money out to give something to their exhibitors.

just some random thoughts.......I can probably come up with more later


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## LaVern (Oct 19, 2009)

I sure do applaud those that dare bring this money issue up. It is not about fighting and pitting ponies against minis. It is about making sure that we have money in the bank. I grew up on the Depression stories, and I guess they stuck. We have been told over and over that there were days where the Shetland directors had to take money out of their own pockets to keep the office going, that has stuck too. I have been broke for 30 years, things are about the same here, but have alway been proud to be a member of financially sound organization like AMHR and want to be sure that it stays that way.

Oh, some used to grumble about "those tight Old Pony Boy Directors" and how conservative they were, I was always so glad that they were.

I used to think that it was wrong that the directors could overrule the votes at convention. I don't anymore. Sometimes I think that we get gunhoe on something and pass it with out thinking it through.

I have said it before and I don't know how a show manager could ever pull it off, but I think that we will have to look at joining the Nationals and the Congress up. Maybe run classes at the same time. I think the biggest problem, with that though would be sharing MARK.


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## LostInOz (Oct 19, 2009)

An additional thought: How about having the Congress be OCAP eligible? That is a point earning opportunity for ponies (& minis) that are also registered in PtHA. All the more reason to go show at Congress if you can pick up OCAP points.

ASPR incentives are helping convince me to take my ASPR filly next year. Why not have incentives for others as well? OCAP is one. We can come up with more.


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## SweetOpal (Oct 19, 2009)

LostInOz said:


> An additional thought: How about having the Congress be OCAP eligible? That is a point earning opportunity for ponies (& minis) that are also registered in PtHA. All the more reason to go show at Congress if you can pick up OCAP points.
> ASPR incentives are helping convince me to take my ASPR filly next year. Why not have incentives for others as well? OCAP is one. We can come up with more.



This may just then be your oportunity to jump in and support the congress. The former donators have decided that they no longer want to support the incentive since thier congress is moving to a more central location. So they are now looking for new sponsors of the incentives. I will be donating to the 2010 congress, will you?

I definately agree that entry fees and office fees need to be raised. But we need to figure out why it is costing $ 250 a horse to operate the congress. There is not another show besides R Nationals that have totals this high for a perhorse accounting.

This is not a mini verses difficult pony issue. It is obvious that we don't have as many ponies registered or showing on a local level but if you do look at what Lewella put we probably have better ratio's than what you want to beleive, considering that 1/2 of what is registered is half of the numbers that show up to the congress. Imagine if you had half of what is registered in the mini registry show up to the R Nationals... As for local shows we don't really offer alot of pony shows here in Ca, but every year at the Area 7 show we have double the ponies show up verses the minis so I think it depends on where you have the show. This year I went as far as Minnesota to show, and it was thier first ever pony show, they had a good turn out for ponies, there was only one class I showed in that did not have competition.

Also as a pony owner I do take offense to the fact that the mini registry is saving the pony registry, first off there would not be a mini registry if it weren't for a pony registry, secondly we would not have the same office operating expenses if there was a pony only registry. This is not about that, what this is about is the fact that Congress needs to break even.

As for promoting the show, I am not sure what promotion you are thinking, anyone that shows or would show knows that there is an end of the year show, and I would believe that is what we pay a marketing person for, what has she done to promote our Congress. I do think that moving it to a more central location will help, but it sure wont the first year with all the negative people from certain area's that are going to boycott the show...And to Kay the last negotiations were done by your Director in your area. I dont' think it was much of a negotiation, it was oh ok sounds good, we still have the pony show in our area type of negotiation. There was obviously no care for the expenses of the show, or the what if we actually have ponies show up and we need more than 500 stalls. The area that has had the show all these years does not want to see the show grow. As for the world show thank goodness that we are no longer sending them thousands of dollars. We can apply that to the Congress, the world show is not the congress and will never house the congress. There are much better places that would be fair to all exhibitors around the us.

The issue at hand is to figure out why we continually show a loss regardless of numbers or locations and figure out a way to make the show break even. $ 250 per horse operating fee is far too much money.


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## Lmequine (Oct 19, 2009)

Well said Jennifer!


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## wcr (Oct 19, 2009)

Lea-thank you for posting this. You are bringing to our attention things that need to be known. If people get a little "hot under the collar", good for them. It makes us think about the need for change and the need to tighten our belts. As I have recently posted on other threads, the registries are a BUSINESS. They need to be run in a fiscally responsible manner. In this economy they need to put on their thinking caps and look outside the box at new areas of revenue and new ways to tighten the belt or we won't have a financially stable registry. It's not about ponies vs minis, it's about sound financial practices.


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## dmk (Oct 19, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> dmk said:
> 
> 
> > so why don't you take this discussion to one of the pony forums rather than the mini forum
> ...


Ummm how about talking to everyone then, not just mini people IF the true discussion is about how to rectify this situation rather than bashing pony people...not all pony people read this forum so it seems to only be intended to one group. That isn't my thoughts, but it must be to the one that posted. And why ask this group ONLY if not to incite some type of us vs. them mentality? How many times has a discussion like this worked for the GOOD of the organization on this forum???? What usually happens when a pony vs. mini topic comes up on the mini forum??? Someone said it was a FINANCIAL discussion...go back up and read some of the other comments. When this has come up in the past it has usually ended up in a heated discussion that comes across from a lot of folks as us vs. them. I am just saying if you want to talk about it then talk about it to everyone - don't post on the mini forum ONLY.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 19, 2009)

Well frankly there is not a forum that a large amount of pony people go to on a regular basis. Obviously word got out here on this forum and now it will spread among those who do not even go on messages both pony and mini owners remember *we are all one registry*

And how often has keeping secrets worked in the long run for our registry how has that been for the good any orginization.

How many people who do not go to congress realize that there class prices are so low for a National show? That is not making money why not raise the fees to what Nationals is paying wont fix the budget issue in itself but sure will help

Yes lots of negative and positive comes out of open discussions but really that is the only way to see any change and to get everyone thinking and working at fixing the issue at hand.


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## Cedar Ridge Farm (Oct 19, 2009)

I appreciate the fact that this has been brought to our attention. I have always been proud to be a member of the AMHR and want to see us be a successful business. I have already told my director and others in Area V that I am willing to donate my time to help with 2010 Congress. More and more people are purchasing ponies (myself included) and I hope and pray that we will have a very big turnout this next year. I know for a fact that there are already "ideas" in the works for off-setting costs.

This should not be a mini vs. pony. It should be "what can we do to help and to rectify this situation". The economy is tough. We need to stand firm together so we don't fall.

Sign me up.....


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## txminipinto (Oct 19, 2009)

This isn't news. Hasn't been for a very long time. And I agree with Jennifer (holy cow



!). The minis may be supporting the ponies RIGHT NOW but if it wasn't the ponies, the minis wouldn't have a registry. Regardless, I do my part. I condition and show ASPC ponies all year long in TX (which has some of the largest pony classes..). And for the past 4 years, I've loaded up my trailer with a full load of ponies and hauled the 18 hours to Congress. I can assure you there are other pony owners who don't. I'm hopeing in 2010 they change their minds and give Congress a shot.

Regardless, OUR assocition (just one, not two) needs to look at the financials and makes some changes. I have no idea what those changes should be. But probably charging more would be a good place to start. Of course, that's a catch 22 because some people won't come. And while they are raising the rates for Congress, they need to raise the rates on Nationals....you know, to make it fair. Pinto World charges $200/stall and $80 per class. Plus, show fee and PtHA fees. To haul one horse, costs me over $300. I can assure you PtHA doesn't loose money on the World show. Another suggestion since this SUCH hardship on the association, is to drop the World Show. We put money into the show and DON'T GET ANYTHING BACK. Chew on that for awhile. That makes some pony people just as mad.

Advertising would definately help. But it's not like the pony people don't know it's coming. It's at the end of July/beginning of August every year. Advertising needs to be done to the outside to bring people in to the ponies. And it should be marketed just like a National level show. I've gotten local show premiums fancier than the Congress one.


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## dmk (Oct 19, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> Well frankly there is not a forum that a large amount of pony people go to on a regular basis. Obviously word got out here on this forum and now it will spread among those who do not even go on messages both pony and mini owners remember *we are all one registry*
> And how often has keeping secrets worked in the long for our registry how has that been for the good any orginization.
> 
> How many people who do not go to congress realize that there class prices are so low for a National show? That is not making money why not raise the fees to what Nationals is paying wont fix the budget issue in itself but sure will help
> ...


Well I disagree with you there. I posted it on the Shetland forum telling everyone to come over and read. WHO said it needed to be a secret? Definitely not my words. Why would posting to both forums be anything EXCEPT trying to get the information out there? No one in the pony industry that I know says let's sweep this under the rug...it gets discussed quite often and heatedly as well by pony people. Why do you think many of us made such a huge deal out of moving Congress to a more central location? If you go back and read some of the posts on the PONY FORUM that many of us read that show at Congress and all over the country at pony shows, you would see that this very topic has been very much discussed and discussed and discussed because we "pony people" know that we need to do something and we are working on that very thing. Nobody said don't discuss this with mini people or that we are separate. I own both and show both. Many pony people do, but there are quite a few that don't. And a few that used to own minis but switched over to ponies, so while they are not technically mini owners, they consider themselves involved in both.

I thought Jennifer did a great job of pointing out some truths in her post.

Talking about it is great, but the fact is, Lea posted to the mini forum ONLY. MY POINT was to include everyone in the discussion...which is what you seem to be saying we should do. If we want true DISCUSSION and UNITY...why NOT post to EVERYONE. Lea knows the discussions that were held regarding Congress and making money, the move and what we hope to accomplish with that, etc. Regardless of what anyone says, number of users or not, there are pony forums here and otherwise and it could easily have been posted to both for this very reason. This organization has ALREADY MADE STEPS in hopes of improving this situation...having finally agreed to move the show to a more central location.

Now I am curious to ask Kay how many registered users are on the pony forum?


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 19, 2009)

Carin why would it be fair to raise Nationals? Nationals supports itself- why not just have BOTH NATIONAL SHOWS CARRY THE SAME ENTRY FEES AND OFFICE FEES?????

Nationals fees were just raised this year by the way


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## Belinda (Oct 19, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]Ok , [/SIZE]

Think about this,, if we sold Sponsorships per class for Just $75 per class , we would pay for all our Trophy's & Ribbons..




Congress had 378 classes last year , you x that by $75 it comes to $28,350 ,, actually after looking Congress has 41 more classes than Mini Nationals , I was surprised by that one..


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## txminipinto (Oct 19, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> Carin why would it be fair to raise Nationals? Nationals supports itself- why not just have BOTH NATIONAL SHOWS CARRY THE SAME ENTRY FEES AND OFFICE FEES?????Nationals fees were just raised this year by the way



Because they are both national shows run by the same association and show management team. Raise the fees so that both shows cost the same per class/stall/etc. It would make paper work easier and the additional revenue from the Nationals would help off set expenses and losses in other areas of the assocition (Congress included).

Belinda, I don't have any problem sponsoring class if that would help. AS LONG as we have a show premium with all the sponsors listed!


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## Mark & Sharon Bullington (Oct 19, 2009)

Belinda has a GREAT idea. Sponsorships are not that hard to sell in actuality. And I know they get announced



. In fact I will state here and now that without owning ponies, but because I DO believe in the registry and want to help out, Sharon and I will sponsor two classes at this next years Congress at $75.00 per class. Lets start the ball rolling folks.

Mark Bullington


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## afoulk (Oct 19, 2009)

dmk said:


> At the bottom of the American Shetland Pony site there are the board statistics showing the number of registered users at being 334.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## LaVern (Oct 19, 2009)

Wonderful idea Belinda, so simple. I was wondering if Congress had 300.00 sponsorship tables and 100.00 fee(full page) to advertise in the program.


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## muffntuf (Oct 19, 2009)

Two years ago the class sponsorships I paid $100. The full page ads were about that too. I was one of 3 farms I think that had full page ads, maybe only two. And then there was a conglomeration of farms that went together to do a 2 full page ad. So this is an area of opp.


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## Yaddax3 (Oct 19, 2009)

Because they are both national shows run by the same association and show management team. Raise the fees so that both shows cost the same per class/stall/etc. It would make paper work easier and the additional revenue from the Nationals would help off set expenses and losses in other areas of the assocition (Congress included).I hope Carin is kidding about raising AMHR Nationals fees. They're plenty high enough, particularly for Youth and Amateur, which are the lifeblood of both AMHR and ASPC. Trainers make no money if they don't have amateurs looking for help. And if you keep raising fees, there will be less disposal income for amateurs to spend on trainers.

Our family stopped showing on the Pinto circuit because the fee to attend Pinto Worlds got absurdly high, as did the fee for local Pinto shows. Also, Pinto Worlds made money, not because of minis and Ponies, but because a lot of people haul just one or two big horses.

Just curious: What was the average size of a mini class at Pinto Worlds?

Back to Congress and AMHR Nationals. I would have preferred to have seen an increase in fees at Congress instead of an increase at AMHR Nationals. It was $10 for Youth at Congress and $20 for Youth at Nationals. Why not meet in the middle and charge $15 for both Congress and Nationals?

However ...

If you're going to make it equitable, then make it truly equitable and have ponies qualify for Congress. Other than keeping the money flowing in from mini owners, what is the reason a mini has to attend two shows to qualify while a pony doesn't have to qualify for Congress? If ponies had to qualify, they would bring in more money for the ASPC coffers and, perhaps, the show experience would help prevent wrecks like the one that took place in the Foundation Country Pleasure Class at this year's Congress.

Also, I've noticed several posts that mentioned without ASPC there would be no mini registry. I know that to be true because pony people have told me it is. What I don't know is this: What was the motivation for starting AMHR? Was it to find another funding mechanism to keep the Shetland registry afloat or did it just seem like a good idea to get smaller horses involved? I'm not looking to start something. I really don't know.


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## Yaddax3 (Oct 19, 2009)

One more thing ...

If Congress added more Foundation classes, more folks with double-registered AMHR-ASPC horses likely would attend and that would contribute more funding.


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## dmk (Oct 19, 2009)

Yaddax3 said:


> If you're going to make it equitable, then make it truly equitable and have ponies qualify for Congress. Other than keeping the money flowing in from mini owners, what is the reason a mini has to attend two shows to qualify while a pony doesn't have to qualify for Congress? If ponies had to qualify, they would bring in more money for the ASPC coffers and, perhaps, the show experience would help prevent wrecks like the one that took place in the Foundation Country Pleasure Class at this year's Congress.


Well the reason for not qualifying is because of numbers. The qualification thing is mostly to keep number manageable which is not a problem for Congress.

This has been discusssed several times...at shows and at Convention in the Classic committee I know one year.

Meant to add...I agree with raising the fees for Congress. I know there will be a lot that won't like it, but for a national show I think it is pretty good. I will join Mark & Sharon in saying I will gladly sponsor two classes at Congress in 2010. I really believe that moving the Congress to a more central location will make a difference in numbers and hopefully dollars. There has already been much discussion and idea exchanging going on here in Area V for the upcoming Congress.


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## Norlea (Oct 19, 2009)

dmk said:


> ~Lisa~ said:
> 
> 
> > Well frankly there is not a forum that a large amount of pony people go to on a regular basis. Obviously word got out here on this forum and now it will spread among those who do not even go on messages both pony and mini owners remember *we are all one registry*
> ...


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## muffntuf (Oct 19, 2009)

Whether or not this is real in response to Bob's post:

Other than keeping the money flowing in from mini owners, what is the reason a mini has to attend two shows to qualify while a pony doesn't have to qualify for Congress? If ponies had to qualify, they would bring in more money for the ASPC coffers and, perhaps, the show experience would help prevent wrecks like the one that took place in the Foundation Country Pleasure Class at this year's Congress.

I heard it was the numbers of how many minis were coming to Nationals that they had to qualify. But that is just heresay.

IMHO:If ponies had to qualify I think there is a fear that pony owners will drop out - especially in areas where there aren't any pony classes held. For instance the far west has few pony classes offered. I am not opposed to this - but what criteria would we use? One class to qualify - two. Since I haven't been to Nationals, but I have friends who have, don't they just have to step into the arena 2X's (not finish the class) to qualify for Nationals?

There is an old standard as well, that the novice harness and roadster ponies are introduced at Congress. Kind of supports your theory Bob, but I am not sure it would 100%.


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## Norlea (Oct 19, 2009)

Sorry that I did not post on the pony boards. You do not see me on these Boards all that often. I was just answering a post regarding how we the directors can't give straight answers and put the Congress facts under a new topic.. WRONG I guess????



I am not excluding anyone... Just not as talented as the rest of you when posting on different boards or Sites. Ask Marylou, I am always bugging her that I can't log in on these boards. I guess if you need to SHOOT the messinger - shoot away, but it doesn't change the facts...







dmk said:


> ~Lisa~ said:
> 
> 
> > Well frankly there is not a forum that a large amount of pony people go to on a regular basis. Obviously word got out here on this forum and now it will spread among those who do not even go on messages both pony and mini owners remember *we are all one registry*
> ...


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## muffntuf (Oct 19, 2009)

I think Lea that once the post had turned around to be a 'solutions' post instead of seen as an attack, this has been more beneficial.

I have been asking for 5 years now to see a detailed financial report from the registry - we as members hear things, it is our club, we want to help. But we can't when our hands are tied.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 19, 2009)

For the record Carin we were both saying the same thing the fees should be the same for classes at both Nationals and Congress not raising just one or the other.





I to think ponies should have to qualify- yes there is not an abundence of shows for them but hey not a huge amount of shows for a lot of us. We have up until this past year only 1 in our entire state and it does include pony classes.

Those that want to show at the National level will do what it takes to get there myself included


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## SweetOpal (Oct 19, 2009)

I would not be against ponies having to qualify, it would greatly benefit lots of local level clubs. I personally have never understood why more ponies are not shown and only shown at the World or the Congress, seems quiet ridiculous knowing how much time and work goes into turning one of these ponies out.

The west not having shows has thankfully started to change. The Pacific northwest had I think 6 shetlands shows this year and Ca had 3, huge step from our usual area 7 only national show. However we still have very few exhibitors from Area 7, all but a few attended the congress in 09, so that is a positive, and I expect with the move being 750 miles closer that we will bring in some new blood from this area.

I will match Mark and Michelle's pledge of sponsorship as well. We need to get a sponsorship going.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 19, 2009)

txminipinto said:


> And for the past 4 years, I've loaded up my trailer with a full load of ponies and hauled the 18 hours to Congress. I can assure you there are other pony owners who don't. I'm hopeing in 2010 they change their minds and give Congress a shot.


Well, we for one, plan to be at Congress next year! We have five ponies that we "plan" on bringing ( if I get a job, AND they left me have the time off!) Ardmore is a BEAUTIFUL facility, easy to get to and the barns are great! Several warm up rings. Plus it's close to us, driving distance wise.

Entry fees: raise those! Even $5 a class will add thousands to the coffers.

Sponsorships: $75 sounds great! Plus, if you can get donations from vendors or anyone, even, have a drawing for those "prizes" from all who sponsored. A certificate from the photographer, a free class entry, free stall for next year, etc... tack shop gift certificates..... lots that you could get!

Lucy


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## chismhill (Oct 19, 2009)

SweetOpal said:


> I would not be against ponies having to qualify, it would greatly benefit lots of local level clubs. I personally have never understood why more ponies are not shown and only shown at the World or the Congress, seems quiet ridiculous knowing how much time and work goes into turning one of these ponies out.
> The west not having shows has thankfully started to change. The Pacific northwest had I think 6 shetlands shows this year and Ca had 3, huge step from our usual area 7 only national show. However we still have very few exhibitors from Area 7, all but a few attended the congress in 09, so that is a positive, and I expect with the move being 750 miles closer that we will bring in some new blood from this area.
> 
> I will match Mark and Michelle's pledge of sponsorship as well. We need to get a sponsorship going.



I was asked to work on the sponsorships for 2010 Congress at our Area 5 meeting.. I think it will be made official at Convention,, AM I RIGHT BELINDA? and if I am not made offical.. I will help whom ever is....

I too will sponsor some classes and dontate my time and effort to make this the most successfull CONGRESS EVER.... I am very excited for my birth state and home state to be hosting such a great organization..

OKLAHOMA used to be a hot bed of Shetland activity,,, the two largest shetland sales were hosted in OKLAHOMA,,, Perry Carlise Sale at Perry OK and the Ada Ok sale.. we once had a LT. GOV.. that was major player in the Shetland Game..

WE MUST STICK TOGETHER<< we might not agree all the time,, but solidarity is a must... I personally have to much time and money invested to let this all go to heck IN A HAND BASKET.... (I am sure the rest of you feel the same way)..

If you have any Ideas I will listen to all, call or email.

Freddy Wright

Chism Hill Pony Farm

Byars, Ok 74831

580-759-3617 home

405-659-1379 cell

[email protected]


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## ruffian (Oct 19, 2009)

"IMHO:If ponies had to qualify I think there is a fear that pony owners will drop out - especially in areas where there aren't any pony classes held. For instance the far west has few pony classes offered. I am not opposed to this - but what criteria would we use? One class to qualify - two. Since I haven't been to Nationals, but I have friends who have, don't they just have to step into the arena 2X's (not finish the class) to qualify for Nationals? "

If a pony had to qualify for Congress, they would have to show at local shows. If they have to show at local shows, then local shows would have classes because they would have entries. Money would come in to support ASPC.

If I didn't have to qualify for nationals, why would I show at a local show?? Just save the money for the big shows.

I don't agree with raising the fees on the National show to pay for Congress.


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## muffntuf (Oct 19, 2009)

Ruffian,

I must have mis-posted. I was asking what criteria would we follow - similar (which is what I don't know the procedures or rules for minis qualifying) or close to it?

I do realize if we had to qualify - we would have to hit a couple local shows. But most pony folks already hit at least 2 shows if not more. In some divisions - Modern and ASPR - we are only allowed 2 judges, so to get our HOF points - we have to hit more local shows. In that respect - we are very different than AMHR HOF.

Right now to get my ASPR stock their HOF points - I have to hit 2.5 X's as many shows a year and it will take me app. 3 1/2 to 4 years to get the required Grands and points. If the show only has one judge - I only get 1 point.


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## JWC sr. (Oct 19, 2009)

I am willing to bet this coming year the Congress will have more participation and stands a very good chance to make a profit or at least break even.






By moving it to a better location closer to the center of the country and also a facility that really wants us there who is willing to work with us on pricing etc.





I think you are going to see a great show, with folks being able to come that have not been able to make it in years past just from a logistical standpoint.





As a business person, I can tell you that you can present financial reports in a number of different ways so as to slant or prove up any given point. The bottom line though is that congress has lost money for several years and I personally am glad to see the registry try something new in order to turn things around.





My suggestion is that we give it a chance, but watch things as far as the bottom line is concerned. The Board of Directors I have been assured has their collective eye on changing things for the better. The first salvo of that change is the relocation of the show to a better (yes it is better, I have been there) and more financially feasible location.





If this works then we need to get into a long term agreement somewhere, so as to again negociate better pricing.


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## dmk (Oct 19, 2009)

John that was a great post...thank you. I agree with you on finding a location and how hard everyone is working to make this Congress a success.


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## smallequie1 (Oct 19, 2009)

*I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time. *

In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.

I read this whole post, what, 7 pages now, and above is one of the very few that got me going right away. You are going to post you "DONT HAVE PONIES" but you are going to turn around and give your "opinion" of them? HMMM, that is one of the very things that plague the PONY!!!

You dont want to invest in the time and effort, but yet you do with your minis, they really are the same thing, just a little taller, heck, most all the minis have PONY blood. Shoeing, well, it is NOT a requirement, I have never shod any of my ponies here, sure, some modern pleasure ponies, moderns, maybe a few drivers do, but it is SURE NOT a requirement.

I have seen more minis act like complete idiots, rearing and bucking, biting their handlers than I do ponies at our shows.

We take 5-6 ponies per show, maybe the occasional mini mare, and we have a great time.

A SHOW MINI IS NOT A BACKYARD EQUINE EITHER! No good SHOW animal is a back yard pet. There are however, MANY, MANY back yard pet, youth ponies, THEY ARE NOT FEW AND FAR BETWEEN, I raise, train, and sell them all the time. I have a whole darn herd of them. Your opinion means nothing when you dont own or show them. They can and ARE shown without people being trainers over and over again. They are very, very smart, willing, loving creatures, just like ANY other equine, the generlizations really show just how close minded you are. Train them to be hot, sure, they will be, train them or at least handle them, they will be pets. My children handle and pet my shetland mature stallions. Dont try and tell me or anyone else that they are not handleable or have to be shown by a trainer. Get one and you might be able to give your opinion without ticking another pony person off, but until you have one, your opinion really means nothing to me.

As far as the Congress losing money, sure, that IS a valid point that needs to be looked at. Flame the pony itself, and sure, your going to tick some people off....


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## dannigirl (Oct 19, 2009)

I read this whole post. I have to agree that without owning a pony, you cannot make judgements about them. We have both and most are double registered mini and pony. I see no difference in the number of 'hot' versus 'quiet' animals in the two different registries. It really depends on the ammount of handling each animal gets. This brings up my next viewpoint. A couple have suggested that ponies and minis be shown at one national show concurrently--possibly at the same time as in local shows. The problem I have with that is that my minis/ponies are double registered and I can show them in either and/or both national shows. At local shows, we need to choose--mini or pony. I sure do not want to have to choose--Congress or Nationals. We often show different equine, but this year, 2 of ours showed both places.


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## muffntuf (Oct 19, 2009)

Well there is an answer for everything - if the shows are held concurrently - you could hypothetically run classes opposites each other. But this is a crazy idea - but I have seen it work. In one arena - pony driving, in another arena - obstacle or something going on for minis - but that is a pretty advanced idea. And way ahead of our time for right now.

I digress - we need to stop the bleed - and I think this discussion has been good. I am seeing good things coming out of it.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 20, 2009)

Someone should set up a poll to see if members will actually show at local shows to qualify for Congress.

I think with the new move Congress should do very well. I say don't make any drastic changes yet. Sure make it costs as much as Nationals but don't want to scare new people off. I will guarantee new people will show at next years Congress based on the move. We may even go to watch depending on work.

As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC? As for the shetlands not being hard to handle I disagree I think it all matters on how you handle them. I do think they can be hotter temperments but minis have it too, they are just easier to handle. Watching the shetlands show at Congress in St. Louis I couldn't believe how many things the kids could do with them. They can be the ultimate kids horse and I really don't see why people can't sell them as such.

I saw the numbers at Convention last year ASPC vs. AMHR and defintelly AMHR leads in the numbers. However depending on how you look at it that may not be such a good thing on new registrations seeing how many new mini foals are being born



. Anyways I think ASPC needs to take a step back and see what they can do better on promoting. See and trying to attract the AMHR/ASPC ponies to show at Congress. I don't think you will get as good numbers as you would for Nationals but you shouldn't be so much in the red either.


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## Leeana (Oct 20, 2009)

ruffian said:


> Not to upset anybody, but the miniature horse is carrying the pony. End of story.
> Every show in Michigan had dismal pony turn out this year. The Ionia show had 1 - count IT 1 pony. Probably close to 80 minis.
> 
> Midland may have had a few more, but certainly not the numbers that the miniatures have. But we have to have the ribbons for the the pony classes. This is not a new occurrence. There have been very few ponies showing in the last 5-10 years. At no show did I ever see the ponies outnumber the miniatures.
> ...


I am sorry - But this post contributes *absolutely* *nothing* to this thread except to stir up us who LOVE the american shetland pony and its beauty and contribution to the miniature horse of yesterday and today!


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## muffntuf (Oct 20, 2009)

JMS Miniatures Says:

As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC? As for the shetlands not being hard to handle I disagree I think it all matters on how you handle them. I do think they can be hotter temperments but minis have it too, they are just easier to handle. Watching the shetlands show at Congress in St. Louis I couldn't believe how many things the kids could do with them. They can be the ultimate kids horse and I really don't see why people can't sell them as such.

Answer:

We have seen a pick up of new "shetland" owners in the past couple of years. It is exciting.

We also have seen more activity in exhibitors trying their hands as Modern Pleasure, Modern and ASPR - I am one who ventured in ASPR and will soon venture into the Modern division. So that is very exciting to see more new exhibitors in that arena (mostly amateurs).

The double registered division (AMHR/ASPC) often show at Congress in the Foundation division, some make it up to the Classic division. And there has been an increase in numbers that attend both Congress (the ASPC side) and Nationals (AMHR side). So it has had a trend upward as well.

I think we need to diminish the "hotter temerpments" - I have not seen a 'Hotly tempered' pony - I have seen ponies who are extremely willing to work and are excited to work. They are intelligent and love having jobs. They quickly excel at tasks given to them. But if not working on a regular basis, seem hot to those not used to them. The show ring is where they excel the most. It has a lot to do with how they are handled, and most seem to understand when there is a kid on the end of the line.

I will preface that with the more 'animated' divisions - some Modern Pleasures, Moderns and ASPR. I own miniatures, classics, modern pleasures, moderns and ASPR ponies. My miniature loves to work too, but she also likes to take it easy.


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## dmk (Oct 20, 2009)

JMS Miniatures said:


> As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC?


I understand what you are asking, but really an AMHR/ASPC pony IS a true ASPC Shetland. It is an ASPC Shetland that is small enough to register into the HEIGHT registry of AMHR either by hardshipping in as a mini or because it's parents were already registered AMHR. If it has ASPC papers it has ASPC parentage - so your ASPC/AMHR ponies have a Shetland pedigree. You may know all that already, but just to clarify for some that don't.

To answer your questions....I do think there are more people buying and breeding the smaller ponies than in years past in order to sell to people who want to show AMHR. Many are not interested in the ASPC side of the coin, but their ponies are still Shetlands. In my area (Texas - Area 5) there has been a large growth in pony numbers over the past 5-6 years ... ownership and showing ... our shows usually have a pretty good Shetland turnout. Few around here would have any problem if qualifying becomes an issue because our ponies are out there anyway. Out west I know there are more pony shows springing up, so must mean more pony owners. Most of the ones I know of are showing the larger Shetlands. I don't know if breeding numbers are increasing for the larger ponies, but I think ownership is increasing and show numbers, too - overall that is.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 20, 2009)

Leeana said:


> to this thread except to stir up us who LOVE the american shetland pony and its beauty and contribution to the miniature horse of yesterday and today!



There are myths about every breed of horse. It is annoying I agree but really do you know how many nasty comments I have heard about minis over the years? And Shetlands as well as T/B's. We always hear it about Arabs and NSH every breed has its haters.

At some point I think we need to quit taking it so personal. Are the myths correct- nope not in my mind but no point in arguing them (and I have done so here on this forum on some of the ponys are crazy threads) however I have since realized it is like arguing with someone on politics or religion no one is going to change minds.

Minds that are open will be changed by seeing something different other then what they had heard not by arguing here or on any message board JMO


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## smallequie1 (Oct 20, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> Leeana said:
> 
> 
> > to this thread except to stir up us who LOVE the american shetland pony and its beauty and contribution to the miniature horse of yesterday and today!
> ...


Sure, there are annoying comments about all breeds, fine and dandy, but if someone doesnt even own one, do you REALLY think they should start posting on a forum about them and off topic as to the forum to begin with? That is where that sort of crap comes from, someone says it to someone else, who really has no clue either, then says it to another, etc, etc, etc. This is a public forum with lots of people, and judgements can be made from ONE single post about ponies. THAT is why the shetland has that "oh, ponies are mean/stubborn" stuff comes from to begin with!

People mentioned I dont know how many times on this one that they didnt want to "turn it into mini vs. pony" but making those sort of statements....what is to be expected? You dont see people posting negative stuff about minis on the pony forum, why is it needed on the mini one? It isnt needed. Noone said that it was a good thing the Congress lost money, it sucks, and needs to be looked at, but the comments from someone that doesnt even own a pony blasting the ponies themselves, and generalizing about them? Come on!

Sure, it will be taken personal to an extent. I would bet you big money that if I started posting all sorts of negative comments about minis on here that I would be blasted to the next planet! I wasnt here to change minds, I came on here (which I RARELY do) because I heard what was going on and thought I would take a look for myself. If I want to "defend" my breed, by golly I will, just as you all would if I came on here with negative comments about minis, especially if I didnt own them.


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## ruffian (Oct 20, 2009)

I am not intending to tick anybody off. I HAVE owned ponies in the past. I don't NOW because I choose not to, but I have had them and so therefore IMO do have the right to comment on this post. So Please don't tell me that I do not have the right. My responses were intended to illustrate potential reasons why more people don't show ponies.

Bottom line, again, is that if a show - ANY SHOW - is not making money it needs to be changed or eliminated. There are no AMHA shows in Michigan due to the fact that AMHA miniatures did not support it. The last show held had about 10 horses show up. So it is no longer being held.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 20, 2009)

smallequie1 said:


> Sure, there are annoying comments about all breeds, fine and dandy, but if someone doesnt even own one, do you REALLY think they should start posting on a forum about them and off topic as to the forum to begin with? That is where that sort of crap comes from, someone says it to someone else, who really has no clue either, then says it to another, etc, etc, etc. This is a public forum with lots of people, and judgements can be made from ONE single post about ponies. THAT is why the shetland has that "oh, ponies are mean/stubborn" stuff comes from to begin with!


well to be honest there is a lot of things I think should not be posted on a public forum and many uninformed opinions. In fact I am plenty sure many feel I have posted some things that should not have and that I have some uninformed opinions.

However that is the name of the game on any public message board and it is sadly human nature. Many a hurtful thing has been said and many a rumor been started and about much bigger things then the negative myths about minis and or ponies

I am not dismissing it - am simply saying trying to argue back about how it is not so will not be what changes anyones mind.


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## Minimor (Oct 20, 2009)

> As far as more people buying shetlands I have a ? on that. Are they the true ASPC shetlands or are they the AMHR/ASPC shetlands? How many of those AMHR/ASPC ponies are actually showing in the ASPC?


Well, here I can honestly say Shetland numbers are increasing (and yes, whether they are ASPC or ASPC/AMHR Shetlands, they are “true” Shetlands because they all have the Shetland pedigree). In this province there is one breeder that has been buying the ASPC/AMHR horses—she is breeding them as well as showing, but when it comes to showing hers are being shown AMHR. Ours are all ASPC, too tall to be AMHR—I bought my first ASPC pony in 2008 and bought 4 more of them this year. I don’t plan on breeding them, but have every intention of showing them & in fact did have 4 in the show ring at our first ASPC show here in 2009. I am planning on showing all 5 in 2010—also plan on showing Minis in 2010 but if time/trailer room/money for entries is too limited to show all then it will be the Minis that stay home & the Shetlands will be shown. Our Shetlands are all in the 40-45” range—most will be 40-43” but one filly may mature closer to 45”, we will wait & see.


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## The Simple Life Farm (Oct 20, 2009)

ruffian said:


> I don't have ponies. I do not feel I want to handle a good show pony. I don't want to invest in the time and effort, shoeing, equipment etc for a pony. I've had miniatures for over 20 years but still don't want to tackle a good hot show pony. So I don't. I take typically 4-6 miniatures to a show and have a great time.
> In My Opinion the show pony isn't a back yard equine the way a miniature horse can be. I am NOT flaming the pony. I am stating what IMO is true. There are some fantastic children's ponies out there. But they are few and far between. A good show pony takes an experienced handler and trainer to show.
> 
> I'm probably not saying this right - I am not against ponies. I am saying that the average joe or jane with their kids can typically take a miniature, or 2 or 5, and even with limited horse experience enjoy owning and showing a miniature. This is not necessarily true with a show pony.






ruffian said:


> I am not intending to tick anybody off. I HAVE owned ponies in the past. I don't NOW because I choose not to, but I have had them and so therefore IMO do have the right to comment on this post. So Please don't tell me that I do not have the right. My responses were intended to illustrate potential reasons why more people don't show ponies.



Let me start by saying that I own and show both minis and ponies. I also *NEVER* post on a hot topic, I am a professional fence rider.

I knew nothing of this topic until I saw it being discussed on another forum. I feel if Lea wanted this to be known by *all* members about Congress, then it should have been posted on the LB pony section and the other pony forum as well. I am sure I am not alone when I say I don't really come to this forum that much, so I would not have known anything about this.

But sorry, the above posts did tick me off! First off, it is way off topic!!! I have 6 minis and 8 ponies. I have been bitten by every one of my minis, never by my ponies. 6/6 minis have steped on my foot, never by my ponies. 4/6 minis have kicked me, never by my ponies. I have seen many minis flip and roll while on the lead, never a pony yet. I have witnessed a youth get struck in the face by a rearing mini, never a pony yet. So... I don't know how you can say pretty much anybody can handle a mini. You are pretty close, but almost anybody could handle a Yorkie dog too, but not everybody could handle a Great Dane dog (yes I have owned them both).

Then you back tracked and stated you have owned ponies. Well, I invite you or anyone else to my farm who wants to experience what the American Shetland Pony is all about. But it does come with a warning: be prepared to be attacked by them. As they all argue over who will get their butts scratched first, or who is next in line to be brushed, or who wants to get kisses first. Because of generalized statement like yours, I avoided the Shetland Ponies for years. All I ever heard them called was "crazy d*mn shetlands", so because of people like you, I missed many years of not having these horses.

And it *does not* take a trainer to show a pony! Hello.... there are way more amateurs showing than trainers, same as the minis! Have you never seen a youth show a pony before? I had a 13 yo girl show one of my ponies this year, she had never even touched a pony before. Guess what, she showed that pony as if she was showing a mini, no difference in personality of the horse.

But I do agree, that not everyone can handle a pony, they are larger, so that means they are stronger. I am positive there is no way possible I could handle a *non-trained *Quarter Horse, TB or draft horse, I don't have the knowledge or strength.

I show all my ponies as classics, so I don't shoe mine or have a bunch on training equipment for them. Actually, they are much easier to keep fit then my minis.

Just as my farrier states...... if they have hooves, they can kick.... if they have teeth, they can bite!

I really don't understand why you even posted these statements, as they had nothing to do with the topic. But I feel I had to respond to this, as I don't want others to put stock in your post that shetlands can not be a gentle show pony! Once again, I invite anyone to my farm to fall in love with this breed!


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## muffntuf (Oct 20, 2009)

Well any thing that has teeth, hooves and muscles - can hurt.

I think it has been well stated and shown - ponies are just a loveable and showable as minis. So The Simple Life Farm - welcome to the pony world!

I invite others to try out these fun and awesome creatures!


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## disneyhorse (Oct 20, 2009)

You know what would help...

GO OUT AND BUY A SHOW QUALITY SHETLAND AND THEN BRING IT TO CONGRESS.

There!

If all the mini people would buy a Shetland and take it to Congress, then maybe they'd see what they were missing!

AND the Congress would be more successful!

Andrea

(The Shetlands are a blast... after you drive a Modern, the minis will be waaaaaaaaaaay boring to drive...)


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## Leeana (Oct 20, 2009)

disneyhorse said:


> You know what would help...
> GO OUT AND BUY A SHOW QUALITY SHETLAND AND THEN BRING IT TO CONGRESS.
> 
> There!
> ...


I like this .... whether you like it or not the shetlands ARE a part of your registry!





I show both miniatures and shetlands, about 50/50 each way.


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## PrestigeMiniHorses (Oct 20, 2009)

You know the sad thing. I am fairly new to the pony world but love both minis and ponies equally. I have noticed out here in CO there's like zero participation from us in this avenue. I am a shetland owner and I too would like to pledge a sponsorship. I have high hops of going to congress next year as well despite the fact that there are no shows for us here..


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## SweetOpal (Oct 20, 2009)

The Simple Life Farm said:


> I knew nothing of this topic until I saw it being discussed on another forum. I feel if Lea wanted this to be known by *all* members about Congress, then it should have been posted on the LB pony section and the other pony forum as well. I am sure I am not alone when I say I don't really come to this forum that much, so I would not have known anything about this.



The last time I checked, when I recieve my yearly membership renewal and card it is for the ASPC/AMHR which is one in the same! I am not just a member of the American Shetland Pony Club but also a member of the American Miniature Horse Registry, the same as the approximately 10,000 every year. All members of the Registries deserve to know what is going on in our finances, this has nothing to do with a pony forum.


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## midnight star stables (Oct 20, 2009)

SweetOpal said:


> The Simple Life Farm said:
> 
> 
> > I knew nothing of this topic until I saw it being discussed on another forum. I feel if Lea wanted this to be known by *all* members about Congress, then it should have been posted on the LB pony section and the other pony forum as well. I am sure I am not alone when I say I don't really come to this forum that much, so I would not have known anything about this.
> ...


I agree. It is the same club, the same money. It's important - IMHO. But what do I know?


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## Norlea (Oct 21, 2009)

First, I do not post all that much on forum's... Sometimes I get on Lil B boards, so this is where I posted, I can hardly figure out how to get to these sites much less figure out where I am going on them.

Please undertand it was not intentional on my part to offend anyone.. It was pure stupidity




on my part about proper posting... If you feel this is not a mini issue then please ask the moderator to drop this thread. I am a director who wanted to inform you the members that we have a financial issue out there... I posted not knowing I was on a wrong site. But in the end this registry does have minis and pony owners. But when it comes to the financial health of the registry -- it is all of our concern.

I could post my other concerns for the registry and answer questions as a director. But if your going to be offended as to where I post, then I guess leave with my tail between my legs because to be honest I am tired of reading these posts and getting hit with that stick for posting on the wrong site.

I knew nothing of this topic until I saw it being discussed on another forum. I feel if Lea wanted this to be known by *all* members about Congress, then it should have been posted on the LB pony section and the other pony forum as well. I am sure I am not alone when I say I don't really come to this forum that much, so I would not have known anything about this.

But sorry, the above posts did tick me off! First off, it is way off topic!!! I have 6 minis and 8 ponies. I have been bitten by every one of my minis, never by my ponies. 6/6 minis have steped on my foot, never by my ponies. 4/6 minis have kicked me, never by my ponies. I have seen many minis flip and roll while on the lead, never a pony yet. I have witnessed a youth get struck in the face by a rearing mini, never a pony yet. So... I don't know how you can say pretty much anybody can handle a mini. You are pretty close, but almost anybody could handle a Yorkie dog too, but not everybody could handle a Great Dane dog (yes I have owned them both).

Then you back tracked and stated you have owned ponies. Well, I invite you or anyone else to my farm who wants to experience what the American Shetland Pony is all about. But it does come with a warning: be prepared to be attacked by them. As they all argue over who will get their butts scratched first, or who is next in line to be brushed, or who wants to get kisses first. Because of generalized statement like yours, I avoided the Shetland Ponies for years. All I ever heard them called was "crazy d*mn shetlands", so because of people like you, I missed many years of not having these horses.

And it *does not* take a trainer to show a pony! Hello.... there are way more amateurs showing than trainers, same as the minis! Have you never seen a youth show a pony before? I had a 13 yo girl show one of my ponies this year, she had never even touched a pony before. Guess what, she showed that pony as if she was showing a mini, no difference in personality of the horse.

But I do agree, that not everyone can handle a pony, they are larger, so that means they are stronger. I am positive there is no way possible I could handle a *non-trained *Quarter Horse, TB or draft horse, I don't have the knowledge or strength.

I show all my ponies as classics, so I don't shoe mine or have a bunch on training equipment for them. Actually, they are much easier to keep fit then my minis.

Just as my farrier states...... if they have hooves, they can kick.... if they have teeth, they can bite!

I really don't understand why you even posted these statements, as they had nothing to do with the topic. But I feel I had to respond to this, as I don't want others to put stock in your post that shetlands can not be a gentle show pony! Once again, I invite anyone to my farm to fall in love with this breed!


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## Norlea (Oct 21, 2009)

I would like clarification of your statement please? Please note, I write this in gentle tones....

Are you under the impression from my first post that I attacked the Congress? I posted to make awareness of the Congress deficit. Believe me, my intention of the post was not to attack the Congress….

You may not know this but I was the one who came up with the location for the Congress, I threw it out to Belinda and a few others as I had contracted Ardmore for another show. Belinda and I went to Ardmore and had a meeting with Tim the facilitator. We struck up a pretty sweet deal for the Congress with Tim and believe me we put it out on the table for at least an hour working out the details so that the Congress's up front costs for the rental of the facility would be covered from stall rental, you can see the figures in my second post. Also, secured a $2,000 grant from the City of Ardmore.

I along with Belinda made the presentation to the board of directors that I put in many many hours of research on demographic's of pony population, ownership, grafts and charts, you name I had it. Even gift bags from the city of Ardmore for the all the directors.

Bottom line is, I don’t care how sweet of a deal was made with the facility, if we do not turn the Congress around financially, all the sweetness in the world will not help the Congress. I of all people would not attack the Congress. If it fails, I will be a part of that failure! I felt the financial issuesf had to be addressed to you ahead of Convention, so that we can make a effort to address the situation and rally together to improve the situation at Convention. I know it is old news that the Congress has lost money for years. But it is time to put the question to the directors, show management and the director of marketing on how to scale down the operating costs, promote, secure sponsors, attract vendors and go after corporate sponsors for this event. This in itself is a yearlong project and needs to be started now. I speak from experience as a show manager of big Breed and Small equine shows with 20 years experience. Managing national, regional and local shows, creating event budgets, securing member sponsors, local city sponsors and corporate sponsors is a yearlong project for a national level event. We need to start now at this convention. (If you see me at convention coming at your with a notebook in my hand, ready to corner you for a class sponsorships, please don't run the other way).



If your a mini person and it is not your concern to sponsor, that is fine, but please don't hit me with a stick for asking... You mini and Pony people look all the same to me... I just see you as a ASPC/AMHR member.



We need to have show management at the Convention to help us with the brainstorming of how to come up with a viable budget. We need the director of marketing involved to lead us to the right doors to knock on for sponsorship. We need Joe our accountant explain to us the analysis sheet and detail to us the break down of the expenses so that we can better understand the oprations costs of this show, even the mini national show.

So please do not misinterpret my posts, in no way did I mean to attack the Congress, as a director of the ASPC/AMHR it is my duty to inform you…. That was my intention…. It was time to inform you about the financial concerns and how can we correct it.

Also, I would like to point out something to you all. Someone posted that the directors are in charge and “Our Hands Are Tied”. That is the furthest thing from the truth, believe me… This registry is a membership registry and you the member have right to anything you ask for other then closed session issues. You the member need to read the rulebook and realize you have member rights! We the directors are not the “Powers to Be” that you think we are as a board. We the board are accountable to you. You have a voice, you need to use it… You have issue with something you write to all the directors, not just yours in your Area. While your writing make sure you copy to the Director of Operations and Director of Finances and the President of the Registry. If you get ignored then write us again...



Do not give up... I assure you though you will not be ignored by some us!!! We will address your inquires. You can make a difference as that is your member right!! Please email us with your concerns now, emails us requesting suggestions befor convention. Secure with the directors that we will have time on the schedule to discuss the Congress and it’s future and needed fixes or any other issue you want to bring to our attention. I will certainly take any concerns you have seriously and respond to them the best I can. I ask you not to sit back and feel that you have no say! Change that defeated feeling and write to all the directors, write to us as a unit, make your feelings known and give the directors your requests!! It is time that membership speak and be known if you feel you have no say. I have listed all the directors email addresses for you… Use these emails to voice your questions, opinions, idea's, concerns and need for change....

Thank you for reading.... Respectfully, Lea Dill - Area I director.

President Larry Parnell does not have email, ask Zona to copy to him.

[email protected] (Director of Operations)

[email protected], (Director of Finances)

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected]

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected],

[email protected]

[email protected],



muffntuf said:


> I think Lea that once the post had turned around to be a 'solutions' post instead of seen as an attack, this has been more beneficial.
> I have been asking for 5 years now to see a detailed financial report from the registry - we as members hear things, it is our club, we want to help. But we can't when our hands are tied.


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## The Simple Life Farm (Oct 21, 2009)

Lea,

I was not attacking you so much. I love you as a show manager, as I think you do a GREAT job. I also appreciate you working your tail off to get Congress to Ardmore. My feeling was simply I would not have known a discussion was being made about the pony side of the registry if not for the other forum.

Ya know, not everyone will be happy. Thank you for starting this topic, alot of useful information has been given. I really hope that all this bickering can stop, and *WE* all can come up with suggestions on how to make Congress a financial success. People will always work better as a team than an individual. Like they say, two heads are better than one!

I don't look at it as a mini vs pony registry. I love all horses, no matter the size or breed. They are a magical animal, I think we all can agree on that. So go hug your mini, pony..... or if you are lucky enough, both.


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## The Simple Life Farm (Oct 21, 2009)

That is something that I admire about you Lea (and Belinda as well), you will come on a public forum and inform the members, even if it means getting some flack. After reading your last post, I do feel like my opinion would matter. I never felt like you were attacking Congress. I was well aware that you and Belinda had worked SUPER DUPER hard to get Ardmore.





*I would be willing to do anything possible to help make Congress a financial success, if my help is needed, please let me know. *

Could you please tell us more details on sponsorships? Is it just sponsoring a class, an event or what? Is this something we could ask our employers to sponsor? Or does it need to be bigger companies? I agree, we need to start NOW!!!!!!

I think what happens is, that people are so very much "in love" with their horses (mini or pony), that we become TOO PASSIONATE about them.


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## Norlea (Oct 21, 2009)

I am sure at convention we will pull this all together and start approching members. I was told that Belinda is spearheading also to gather sponsros. I will be sure to let you know..

Please can someone post my email about having a voice in this registry to this pony board you speak of?up.... AHH "Grasshopper" here does not know this "magical pony forum" that you speak of???










The Simple Life Farm said:


> That is something that I admire about you Lea (and Belinda as well), you will come on a public forum and inform the members, even if it means getting some flack. After reading your last post, I do feel like my opinion would matter. I never felt like you were attacking Congress. I was well aware that you and Belinda had worked SUPER DUPER hard to get Ardmore.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## dmk (Oct 21, 2009)

SweetOpal said:


> The Simple Life Farm said:
> 
> 
> > I knew nothing of this topic until I saw it being discussed on another forum. I feel if Lea wanted this to be known by *all* members about Congress, then it should have been posted on the LB pony section and the other pony forum as well. I am sure I am not alone when I say I don't really come to this forum that much, so I would not have known anything about this.
> ...


This isn't the official site for ASPC/AMHR. Who will be turning this issue around...pony owners that show at Congress. Sounds pretty much like a pony topic. Does it involve ALL OF US...you bet. Did someone post that mini owners shouldn't know about this, because I didn't. It was put out as official information on one forum to a group that reads a forum designated as mini topics, so as an official representative of ASPC/AMHR, yes I think she should have put something out on the pony forums where OTHER members read.

But let's get on to something that is really important now. How to change the situation. I posted on the other forum that I think we should have a committee that researches Congress and sets up a record of what the definitely necessities are. At first, I thought the committee could serve as a liaison between the board, show manager, facility and membership until we could get this show in the black or at least break even. People (not on the board and no one that would have a conflict of interest) on the committee would go over every detail to determine where changes can be made and present their findings to the general membership, not just the board. This committee could also do some research on other shows, fee comparisons, facility fees, etc. And as someone else mentioned on the other forum. There are obviously some HUGE problems and we have to start at the most logical starting point, the top and work down to the very last figure. It has been rehashed and discussed in the board room numerous times, but it hasn't changed things? Why? What are the steps that have been taken? Is there a record of what has been presented in the past that we can look and see if everything has been implemented? A copy of the minutes that details presentations and discussions? If everything hasn't been documented that is problem #1. If it hasn't been followed that is problem #2. So start there.

In 2010 location is a big factor that MIGHT change some things. But there are already plans to move this back up north...I know this because I was TOLD this specifically by people planning on getting it moved. IF it works better this year, we only have a one year contract. What happens then?

This is not a pony vs. mini topic but some people did turn it into that which is what got tempers flaring in the first place. There is one thing that we can all agree upon....WE LOVE OUR HORSES and WE LOVE ASPC/AMHR or we wouldn't choose to invest all this time, effort and most of all $$$$$ into it. Let's figure out positive solutions to the issues and start by DEMANDING ACCOUNTABILITY. Don't say we must make money and then undermine the effort IF 2010 changes anything that puts some pressure on for this coming Congress. We need to step up and make it happen, especially everyone who is so happy about it moving. If it does well, then we have something to work with. Everyone has pretty much the same opinions, this needs to be turned around. So let's make it happen and try to work together for the good of the whole.

As far as mini nationals and Congress...let's do a comparison by RATIO not by dollars or numbers. You can't compare one to the other in some ways, but in others you can. We have the same show manager, the same show personnel basically, the same BOD of directors in charge, so what is the difference? Our facility doesn't cost as much so while the numbers are lower for Congress that cost is lower as well. As a business person, I can't figure out why this is so difficult to figure out. It is a good time to discuss this as we are going to Convention in a couple of weeks. I hope that the BOD that are reading this realize the discussion this should present for them at Convention and to the membership who will want some answers.


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## muffntuf (Oct 21, 2009)

Lea check your PM.

Also, although it did seem to me to be an attack on Congress - I think the tone of the post has changed to be more of a solution gatherer post.

Hopefully those that read the beginnings of the post, continue to find the tone has changed as well.

I think the first priority should be to get ahold of a detailed financial report from Congress and Nationals and see if there is something Nationals can reveal that we are missing the boat on for Congress.

Then I think one person should 'Project Manage' the gaining of sponsors, and I am going to be bold and say it should not be a BOD member - it should be someone with PM experience of leading teams. That person report into the BOD and the membership.

I think you should either have MaryLou or the other Forum owner (the secrect pony forum owner) open up a line of communication by adding a section to the forum for those trying to get sponsors to post, list, discuss and negotiate the gaining of sponsors. THIS IS KEY - we don't want numerous people going after the BIG sponsors and the BIG sponsors get inundated with requests and they become frustrated and not support Congress.

For example:

I have gained huge sponsorship from Company X and have a direct contact there to the people who grant sponsorships. So I contact them, but wait

The Simple Life Farm may have a good contact at Company X and they start working that angle to gain a different type or same sponsorship.

If we have commonalities in contacts, we need to pool those together and work the system to our advantage.

I have more thoughts, but must run to a mtg.


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## dmk (Oct 21, 2009)

Forgot one thing...Lea posted all those email addresses. This is the time to use them.


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## muffntuf (Oct 21, 2009)

Thanks I did miss that one.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 21, 2009)

Lea I thank you for posting and franklydo not care where you post enough cross read that it got out you know going on and on about where it got out is just stupid.

If ABC broke a story and I didnt hear about it until the next morning or late that night cause how dare NBC or FOX and CBS not break it and inform ME at the same time would I be crying about how ABC was obviously trying to keep me out of the loop come on now get a grip... it was posted doesnt matter by who - when or where what matters is we all now have this information and it is up to all of us to figure out what to do with it.

Not up to all of us to buy a shetland and take it to congress or not up to all of those with ponies to buy minis and show at Nationals it is about not being able to have it it all.

If you do not want to raise fees then expect smaller trophies, ribbons and other expenses seems pretty simply a sacrafice has to be made somewhere be it in your awards budget, and staff budget or a increase in prices or money to start dropping from the sky.

Frankly I will not sponsor anything more then a class if the class fees are not raised. I am not ok with something losing money for YEARS and YEARS and myself having to pay more for Nationals classes and COngress classes remaining the same...but that is just me and yes it effects my we will be showing at both this year


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## The Simple Life Farm (Oct 21, 2009)

Norlea said:


> Please can someone post my email about having a voice in this registry to this pony board you speak of?up.... AHH "Grasshopper" here does not know this "magical pony forum" that you speak of???



Lea,

We are not allowed to copy from one forum to another. I looked at the "other forum" last night, and thought I saw you as a member??? Either way, I am sure Belinda can help you with the "other forum".

Again, thank you so very much for helping to get Congress to Ardmore, and getting this information out here. I think we all can agree, we want Congress 2010 to be the best ever!!!!!


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## dmk (Oct 21, 2009)

~Lisa~ said:


> you know going on and on about where it got out is just stupid.


that I agree with

different people voicing opinions but yet the same ones keep repeating how it doesn't matter.....


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## bfogg (Oct 21, 2009)

I also appreciate Lea posting the info. I did not get that she was putting the Congress down. I really appreciate her for doing it. We need to know.

I am in awe at the responses given. So many great ideas and suggestions. In school we call it brainstorming and this is what is happening on this forum right now!

I am always amazed with the energy and kindness and intelligence on the forum. I really think with the help of all the people on the Forums the 2010 Congress will be different !!!!

New people almost always bring new ideas and lots of new energy. Having never been to Congress and not owning any shetlands right now I really don't feel I know enough about either one to voice an opinion.

As far as temperment is concerned, when asked about it I would like to ask are your kids spoiled and ill behaved? Then chances are your animals will be as well. My kids have had lots of ponies and minis and none have been ill mannered.

I did meet Larry Parnell at Nationals and found him to be very open and approachable. And Lea I have known for a long time and feel like I could discuss anything with her.

I think with the many talented people on here and other boards the problems will be solved. I am kind of excited to see what comes of this!






Bonnie


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## Norlea (Oct 21, 2009)

Yes, your right I am a member and visited the that board last time in April... Kay helped me out this morning, got me a pass word that I can remember.... and I will go there.... *The Grasshopper *



line was to supose to be funny... Now I just have to remember my username....



We NY'ers have a odd sense of humor....



The Simple Life Farm said:


> Norlea said:
> 
> 
> > Please can someone post my email about having a voice in this registry to this pony board you speak of?up.... AHH "Grasshopper" here does not know this "magical pony forum" that you speak of???
> ...


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 21, 2009)

I got the "joke" and must say it cracked me up anyway


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