# Advice on how to handle a situation



## StarRidgeAcres (Dec 30, 2011)

I'll try to keep this generic enough so that hopefully no one ends up offended.

How would you handle this? Someone inquires on a horse. It's not someone you already know. Their email contains a website, so of course that's something I would check out...even before answering their questions. You see something on the site that is a no-no for you. I'm not talking about abuse or dangerous activity,etc. All their horses look extremely well taken care of, etc. But if breeding is what they have in mind, regarding the initial inquiry, then it's not someone I'm going to sell to.

How to handle this? Probably very nice people; horses look great. But some, let's say breeding decisions, don't look like the best ones. How not to offend? If no breeding was involved, I might consider it.

I'm generally not at a loss, but this one has stumped me.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Dec 30, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Perhaps they are working on improving their breeding program..



Perhaps.


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## alongman (Dec 30, 2011)

Parmela -

I am going to use the same line that I used in another topic post........you are your horses ONLY advocate. Do what is the best for your horse. If your gut has you thinking about it enough to post, then is it the right decision? The horses I have sold, even to people I don't know, it was easy to tell that they were going to good homes - it felt right.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Dec 30, 2011)

alongman said:


> Parmela -
> 
> I am going to use the same line that I used in another topic post........you are your horses ONLY advocate. Do what is the best for your horse. If your gut has you thinking about it enough to post, then is it the right decision? The horses I have sold, even to people I don't know, it was easy to tell that they were going to good homes - it felt right.



Thank you Adam. I believe you are right. I have decided I am not selling in this particular situation. But how does one tell a buyer, essentially, "the horse isn't for sale to you" but thanks for asking anyway. I could lie and say the horse has already sold, but that isn't right. If I'm honest I'll just offend by saying "the mare isn't for sale if you're going to breed her to that stallion" which would be the honest response..but not very tactful or polite.

Ugh, sometimes I really think selling stinks. I think I'm getting too soft for this. Too soft for breeding myself, too soft for others to breed horses from my farm, too soft to handle all the heartaches that come with these little guys.


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## Hosscrazy (Dec 30, 2011)

Exactly - if your gut says there's something about the situation that you're not comfortable with, then move on. You'll find the right buyer and both you and your horse will be happier in the long run.

Liz N.


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## Marty (Dec 31, 2011)

Why not just be direct and come flat out and ask if the intentions are in fact to breed to their stallion? Then you can say something a little diplomatic like "They don't appear to be a very good match"


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## StarRidgeAcres (Dec 31, 2011)

Thanks everyone for your feedback and advice. I do believe I have to respond and I have to say something. So first I will confirm if breeding is the intention (of course the problem is what someone says now may not be what happens in the future - doesn't mean they lied, just means they changed their mind) and if it's to breed I will just say "not a good match" and leave it at that.

thanks again.


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## Karen S (Dec 31, 2011)

Parmela,

I'm going to put the shoe on the other foot. What if it was you that was the buyer and was looking for a new prospect to breed to your stallion? How do you know that this person hasn't done their homework in regards to breeding lines? You don't know if those lines will cross or not because they have not been done before in the past. It's not our call (as the seller) to tell a buyer as to whether or not those two lines are good crosses or not. The breeder has to find out for themselves. Remember it's a 50/50 breeding here. 50% Stallion and 50% Mare. Most people will blame a Stallion before they blame a Mare for a cross that didn't work. It only takes me one time, sometimes two breedings for a particular pair before I decide whether or not they work. If they don't, then I either find a new cross or sell what I have. If those horses are being taken care of then as a seller you really don't have the right to tell me the buyer what I can or cannot do in regards to my breeding program. Yes you can lie and say the horse isn't for sale, or you can put them up for sale as in a private treaty. That pretty much keeps any buyer away as they think you are going to want lots of $$$$ for your horse. You have to remember, if you put any horse up for sale, you are in the business of selling horses. I have only turned down one buyer all these years and they wanted one of my ponies for a three year old child. I knew this pony wasn't a childs pony. Yes, she got upset but after a bit while I was still talking with her in person, she finally understood what I was telling her. She decided on another pony that did fit in her program. I didn't loose a sale but I didn't insult my buyer either that could have hurt me more in the long run. It only takes one bad comment and we all know how those can fly like wild fire to make us look like the bad person when in reality we are really trying to do what is right for not only the horse but the buyer too.

Karen


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## Genie (Dec 31, 2011)

I usually think that if I am asking, I am usually just looking for confirmation of my decision.

On the other hand, I made two separate sales to people who I thought I knew, and that my horses would have good homes.

The result is that I would never sell either person another horse no matter what they offered.


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## shorthorsemom (Dec 31, 2011)

Don't fry me,... please. But IMO, if it is a great home, and their horses are in terrific shape and the people are really nice, what is it that is really bothering you? Trying to control someones breeding of a horse after a sale can really only be done by gelding a stallion before he leaves. If they make you uncomfortable, tell them no. If they are truly a good home and you just don't like the "look" of what they are breeding you could ask more questions as to what they want in a mare. Like the other post said... what if they want to improve their breeding lines by purchasing a new better quality mare. Maybe they have intentions of breeding to an outside stallion to improve the look of what they are breeding. Sounds like more questions are in order and sounds like you need to get more comfortable with who the potential buyers for your mare are, rather than sell her and kick yourself later. That is a good thing..

But honestly, checking out their website really isn't going to get you the answers you really want. You sound like a smart cookie and sound like you truly do care where your horses are going to end up and what will be done with them. Listen to your gut feelings, but you really don't need to go into great explanation to them as to why you refuse to sell, don't hurt their feelings, they might just be nice people looking for a nice mare and might not have any intentions of breeding her. Get to know them, if you at all feel uncomfortable, move on.

Me, I will never be a breeder. I don't have the guts for it and would worry about every baby forever and as for the foaling out and stress in breeding minis...



. I tip my hat to those of you that are dedicated breeders trying to make a difference.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Dec 31, 2011)

I do appreciate everyone's perspective, so thank you for responding. I replied to the email by only answering their specific questions. I have decided I will be very honest with them if they inquire further. They will probably not believe me and will become defensive, but for the sake of the horses I will do it. I'm not losing a sale if I have no intention of selling to them in the first place.

They have more than one breed of horse and their horses all look wonderfully cared for. But their mini stallion is a dwarf and is producing dwarfs but they still use him. For many breeders that is an acceptable practice. For me it is not. No exceptions. So I will chose to not sell to that type of situation. Certainly not knowingly. I believe I have that right. I can't control everything that happens to my horses once sold but I owe it to them not to knowingly put them at risk.

The reason I'm sharing the details now is because I've decided to give them honest feedback if it goes any further.


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## attwoode (Dec 31, 2011)

Parmela, you have every right to want to protect your little mare from a tramatic birth of a live dwarf foal, or worse yet, one that dies in utero. That is not to mention the uncertain future of any of her foals. I would not sell her to that farm unless that dwarf was a gelding!

By the way, your mare is beautiful and it would be a shame for her background to be blamed for the dwarfs that would be produced in the next generation or further down the line. Wish I had the money, I'd solve your problem and bring her to live with me!


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## Kiss This (Dec 31, 2011)

For that reason I also would not sell to them. You are making the right decision & everyone will understand that.


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## Jill (Dec 31, 2011)

You know, I think I have in mind what the situation is, but who knows -- I may be far off... but with what I have in mind, I would answer the person and indicate that I appreciate their interest but that I didn't feel my mare / filly was a good match for their breeding program. Not going into the why of it, as that would be insulting if it's the situation I am picturing. With SO many horses for sale, I think that this type of message will have them pursuing a horse other than one you love and care for.


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## shorthorsemom (Dec 31, 2011)

Mentioning that their stallion is a dwarf and producing dwarf foals changes everything... Sounds like you know what to do already.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Dec 31, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Oh.. now I understand now.. the buyer has a stallion that may possibly sire dwarfs.. Why did you not say this in the first place?? Yes, you have a right to be concerned.. I guess.. if you know they plan to use their stallion (that could produce dwarfs) to breed with your mare..



I didn't say it at first ML as I wasn't sure I was going to confront them about it (assuming it came to something more than a casual inquiry into price, etc.), but I now plan to be honest with them if it goes further. I plan to say that I believe your stallion carries the dwarf gene and that based on pics on your site he has, for sure, passed it along, so I can't place a breeding mare in a home where the only stallion is a dwarf producer. Just not worth it as I've seen the damage that can be done to a mare when she foals a dwarf. It's heartbreaking all around. So not for me.


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## Koriana (Dec 31, 2011)

Really stupid question ..... How new are these people to breeding ? Do they even realise their stallion is a dwarf ? I know it's not your place to fix things as such but I wonder if they know ? I know your mare will find a beautiful home as she deserves you are doing the right thing parmela =)


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 31, 2011)

Parmela, I have always loved your your horses, and would look to an animal I bought form you to improve my breeding lines. If I am using a dwarf stallion (and I have been in a similar position) then there is NO way to improve the bloodlines, none, it is a dead end.

I am afraid I was probably a bit too up front, said simply that , IMO, their stallion was a dwarf and that were my mare to have a dwarf foal (it is not possible to test, yet, after all, so a full dwarf is _possible_ from any mare in this situation) she could be compromised severely, maybe even die. That was the bottom line, the welfare of the animal. I was not going to wait around ten years for the genes to click into place and the mare have a dwarf foal, I was not willing to play Russian Roulette with her .

I think you have already made your decision, and I think you have made the right one.

If it were merely that the stallion was inferior, since the home is brilliant, I would suck it up and let her go, as it is she would be constantly contributing, at best, to a problem we already know we have in the breed, at worst she could die.


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## alongman (Dec 31, 2011)

Koriana said:


> Really stupid question ..... How new are these people to breeding ? Do they even realise their stallion is a dwarf ? I know it's not your place to fix things as such but I wonder if they know ? I know your mare will find a beautiful home as she deserves you are doing the right thing parmela =)


This sounds really stupid, but I went to observe a sale recently where the HIGH selling horses (plural) were both dwarves. Both from the same farm! Both clearly identified as being "the new style of miniature - the really tiny ones". Will that farm continue to breed dwarves - absolutely! They walked away with nearly 4 times the price of any other horse.

I respect your decision Parmela! Some people, like you, are in it for the animals, not the quick buck of selling one.


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## Koriana (Dec 31, 2011)

I agree Marylou if you were Parmela would you broach the subject with the people ?


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## barnbum (Dec 31, 2011)

_Ugh, sometimes I really think selling stinks. I think I'm getting too soft for this. Too soft for breeding myself, too soft for others to breed horses from my farm, too soft to handle all the heartaches that come with these little guys. _

Exactly... been there..stopped breeding and selling. Too hard to make the decisions--too hard to let them go to even perfect places. Good for you for saying no.

When I had a filly with an off bite for sale--my ad said pet quality only. When people called about her--which they did a LOT because she's gorgeous--I asked if they planned to breed her and many said "Yes!" Then I said I wouldn't sell her to them. They acted surprised.




When I was selling Jazz some folks came to meet him--but it was obvious the woman didn't really like Jazz. Even if she had decided to get him I never would have sold him to them.

Good luck--at least this is as simple as saying thanks for your interest, but NO.


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## Suzie (Jan 1, 2012)

We were in a similar situation this past year. The "buyers" hounded us to sell a stallion we had. When I did some research on the situation, we decided not to sell him at any price to them really. It can get uncomfortable and although I did not state exactly why to the potential buyer, we just left it as "he is not suited for your situation" and the horse stayed with us. Later we did have a wonderful buyer who put him in a much better situation for breeding. The original "buyers" left in a snit (yes they even came to the farm to buy with a horse trailer in tow-) but like you said earlier, they were not really "buyers" for me anyway and so no loss on my view. I don't like hurting feelings or disappointing folks, but I am the only one who can speak for my animals. If he was at an auction, I would take my chances (and I will be the first one to admit I have no-saled my share of horses over the years because of the final bidder....and took them back home.) I will give away a horse to a good home rather than sell one to a bad home.

I am a major softie when it comes to selling now days. I can't bring myself to place my horses in a bad situation anymore (even if I am not originally aware that it will become one). Therefore, we had personally made the decision to not breed for anyone but ourselves for a while. With this economy, I worry even more. Some horses will be here as long as we can possibly keep them because I know if they left here someone would either breed them to a huge stallion or place them back in a bad situation that we took them out of years ago. Some would not, but I can't rest at night not knowing. I love breeding, but hate selling and we have plenty to work with now, so my mares and stallions will just have to do some wishfull thinking for a while longer.


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## supaspot (Jan 1, 2012)

if the stallion was merely poorly conformed but it was an otherwise good home I would possibly let her go but if he is siring dwarfs the answer would be a definate no ..but Id tell them why but in as gentle a way as possible


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## minie812 (Jan 1, 2012)

Well for what it's worth...Your horse-your decision


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 3, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> No Korina.. it would be hard for me to tell someone their horse is not quality.. but that is just me.. I am afraid to hurt feelings..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You are right Mary Lou. I have a problem telling them to. Who is to say that they are not breeding exactly what they like?? Just because i do not like longer heads does not mean somone else will not like them, the bit sits a little better in the mouth of a horse that is a little longer from the eye to the nostril.

I like a horse completely straight in the back legs, but i could never sell that to a person looking for a working horse, as they are looking for a performance type back end that can "sit down and pivot."

I do not think anyone intentionally breeds dwarfs. However one of the most loving horses i ever had the privledge of knowing was a dwarf. Does she have value? YOU BET SHE DOES! Maybe just not in everyones "expert" opinion.

When i have visited someones farm, either virtually or in person, i have felt priveledged to be there, these people are KIND to allow me to see thier breeding programs, how they do things, horses they own, and breed. I will in NO WAY INSULT THEM, by telling them thier horses are not good enough.

_*If you do not want to sell someone your horse, you DONT have to!*_ That is the beauty of it. Please do not insult someone that has graced your door by inquiring about a horse that you own, then telling them their breeding program is not good enough for your horse.

Who is to say that your horses are any better than any one elses horses?????

To tell someone thier horse is not quality, and their breeding program is not as good as yours takes a very arrogant person.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 3, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> You are right Mary Lou. I have a problem telling them to. Who is to say that they are not breeding exactly what they like?? Just because i do not like longer heads does not mean somone else will not like them, the bit sits a little better in the mouth of a horse that is a little longer from the eye to the nostril.
> 
> I like a horse completely straight in the back legs, but i could never sell that to a person looking for a working horse, as they are looking for a performance type back end that can "sit down and pivot."
> 
> ...


Then splash me all over with arrogance because I do believe there are people who purposely breed for dwarves and I would NEVER knowingly subject any mare to the possibility. If you've ever seen what it can do to the insides of a mare to try and foal a dwarf I can't imagine you'd support the continued breeding of them.

I'll gladly take the heat if it means saving a mare from that heck. Anyday, everyday. I'm a big girl and I've got big girl pants.


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## joylee123 (Jan 3, 2012)

Parmela, You are right,honesty is the best policy. If it goes further, just as nicely as you can, say "I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I see signs of Dwarfism in your stallion and I'm concerned if you are purchasing my mare to breed that this cross may produce a dwarf foal and I am not willing to perpetuate dwarfism in miniatures......" There are ways to gently tell them your concerns, but be honest as you have already seemed to come to the conclusion to be





Joy


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 3, 2012)

As i stated before. You can sell your horse to anyone you choose. If you do not think this is an appropriate home, for what ever the reason may be, by ALL means do not sell your horse to them.

But to take it a step further and "help" someone by telling them the horses they are producing are substandard, and inferior. And they are not "good," "responsible" horse breeders such as yourself is an insult...and borderlines on just plain bad manners.

Its really saddening that people can be so harsh and cruel to one another, my heart hurts for them, and i hope that one persons "expert" opinion does not stop them from enjoying and loving their miniature horses, and all the wonderful experiences they provide.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 3, 2012)

joylee123 said:


> Parmela, You are right,honesty is the best policy. If it goes further, just as nicely as you can, say "I don't mean to hurt your feelings, but I see signs of Dwarfism in your stallion and I'm concerned if you are purchasing my mare to breed that this cross may produce a dwarf foal and I am not willing to perpetuate dwarfism in miniatures......" There are ways to gently tell them your concerns, but be honest as you have already seemed to come to the conclusion to be
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Joy, those are excellent words. They did email me again so I think I'm going to use your suggestion of how to approach it. It may offend them but I'd much rather do that and maybe "wake them up" than see another horse suffer. And although I will probably be wasting my breath, I will know that I did my part by speaking up for an animal that can't speak for itself.



I will sleep just fine tonight.


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## joylee123 (Jan 3, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Joy, those are excellent words. They did email me again so I think I'm going to use your suggestion of how to approach it. It may offend them but I'd much rather do that and maybe "wake them up" than see another horse suffer. And although I will probably be wasting my breath, I will know that I did my part by speaking up for an animal that can't speak for itself.
> 
> 
> 
> I will sleep just fine tonight.






:yeah



:yeah


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## Debby - LB (Jan 4, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> As i stated before. You can sell your horse to anyone you choose. If you do not think this is an appropriate home, for what ever the reason may be, by ALL means do not sell your horse to them.
> 
> But to take it a step further and "help" someone by telling them the horses they are producing are substandard, and inferior. And they are not "good," "responsible" horse breeders such as yourself is an insult...and borderlines on just plain bad manners.
> 
> Its really saddening that people can be so harsh and cruel to one another, my heart hurts for them, and i hope that one persons "expert" opinion does not stop them from enjoying and loving their miniature horses, and all the wonderful experiences they provide.


well said Julie!


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## Sandee (Jan 4, 2012)

I had a breeder refuse to sell me a horse when we first got started. He said he felt that his horse was a driving horse and I didn't know anything about driving at the time. A few years later that horse has changed hands and is still driving but I'm doing quite well in the driving division myself. So he was honest but no one can forsee what the future will bring.

I respected him for his honesty even though I regretted not getting the horse. It is one that I would have liked to have had but by the time she came up for sale again she really didn't fit in with the driving I was doing.


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 5, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Then splash me all over with arrogance because I do believe there are people who purposely breed for dwarves and I would NEVER knowingly subject any mare to the possibility. If you've ever seen what it can do to the insides of a mare to try and foal a dwarf I can't imagine you'd support the continued breeding of them.
> 
> I'll gladly take the heat if it means saving a mare from that heck. Anyday, everyday. I'm a big girl and I've got big girl pants.














I have been waiting ages to use that emoticon, thank you (yes, I am _am_ sad)

Seriously, this is not arrogance.

Do we all just sit here then, and only give an opinion of something that is very wrong (this is not a badly conformed horse, this is a horse with a congenital fault. What if it had badly slipping stifles?) if we are publically invited to do so??Well, as you are all aware, that is not me. It is a really good job that Parmela has the chance to do this "on paper" and not face to face as you have time to sit and think it out and say it as gently as you can. I had a dwarf offered to me as a breeding animal, a filly, being offered openly as something to bring size down. Did I tell them she was a dwarf? Of course I did. The price she was, I could not afford to buy her out of the breeding circle, but they went on offering her. When advice is offered quietly, and privately, the other person is free to ignore it.

And of course, I have told people openly, as I have someone who is paid to follow me around with a foot extractor. This time, however, a number of people told me they wished they had the courage (not courage in my case I can assure you, merely the mouth bypassing the brain) to say what I had said as they had wanted to for years. In my defence I had been asked for my opinion.

Did this person stop breeding? Nope.

Some people just do not want to learn.

A question of likes/dislikes is not the same as this. If it were merely that the horse was not to Parmela's taste and she did not want her name on the subsequent foals pedigree, then just don't sell them the mare and keep your opinion to yourself. But something that is potentially damaging to the mare and the foal?

I would speak up.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 5, 2012)

Parmela, if you are going to tell these people that their horses are inferior and not up to your standards, please also tell them that there are others that would never insult them, or tell them how to spend their money, or what the "best" horse to have is .

I sincerely hope they are not aware of this forum, and are not watching what people are saying about the horse/horses they raise and own.

Please let them know that they are kind people in this horse industry, who will welcome inquires of any type. We welcome everyone( including people on this forum who do not share my views) everyone is treated with great respect. Let them know that if I, or anyone representing my farm (Lil Hoofbeats) (and many others that have PM me) ever visits, via website or in person, that I/We will be nothing but grateful, that they took the time to show me their farm/stock.

Please let them know that their are people who will welcome them, not judge, not criticize, and not condemn them for their choice in horses.

I am proud to be one of those people!!!!!!

Julie Sherrill

Lil Hoofbeats Farm


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 5, 2012)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I have been waiting ages to use that emoticon, thank you (yes, I am _am_ sad)
> 
> I had a dwarf offered to me as a breeding animal, a filly, being offered openly as something to bring size down. Did I tell them she was a dwarf? Of course I did. The price she was, I could not afford to buy her out of the breeding circle, but they went on offering her. When advice is offered quietly, and privately, the other person is free to ignore it.
> 
> ...


Rabbitsfizz, Thank you for reading this thread, and thank you for taking time to post, this helps me learn, and that is something i am always willing to do. I read what you posted, and i was just wondering if you told these people quietly and private that their horse was a dwarf, how did so many people know that you had told them their horse was a dwarf? and wished they had had the courage to tell them themselves?

Did i mis read?


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## Debby - LB (Jan 5, 2012)

Jane I don’t think the people in question “publicly invited” a critique of their stock or asked Parmela if she thought her horse would be a good match for their stallion etc.. if I missed that I’m sorry. If they asked your advice then by all means tell them “I do not think they would make a good match”. If they want to know why the two horses would not make a good breeding match then tell them that the neck is too short, head is too big… if they are thick skinned enough to inquire further about your feelings then point out that some of the conformation flaws are what you see as dwarf characteristics. Be open for discussion IF THEY ASK.

 

I very much agree with the reasoning behind this post. I hold Parmela in great esteem as far as her integrity and breeding program goes However my feelings are if you want to critique the people’s stallion as part of the buying process then you should make that known on your sales advertising…maybe “_Please be aware that I will scrutinize your breeding program for dwarfism characteristics before considering placing this mare._” ..or something to that effect.

 

 I would not put a horse up for public sale and then have to worry about who was going to inquire. To wait until someone inquires and then dig around and pick apart their horses, make it public then inform them they are breeding dwarf traits would come off as being arrogant in any scenario I can see.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Jan 5, 2012)

I find this entire initial post disturbing. What entitles any of us to critique another's breeding program, if we are not asked to do so. The most important aspect in selling horses is to sell them to someone that will take good care of them...ie...feeding, worming, vet, farrier, vaccination, dentistry....etc..... I am most in agreeance with Debby and Julie with my opinion on this. Who is to say what will happen to this mare in the future. You may sell her to what you "think" is the perfect home only for them to not care for her properly and pass her off to the first people who come along and then those people breed her to a dwarf or whatever else. Honestly...if I were that concerned...I would keep the mare. When we sell horses, their future is out of our hands. Yes...we "try" to put them in the best home that we can....but it doesn't always work out that way. Best of luck to all involved with this. I also hope the potential buyers are not members of LilBeginnings. I would be crushed at first and then furious later if I found this post and knew that I was the one in question.


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## cretahillsgal (Jan 5, 2012)

I think a major point that is being overlooked here is that this stallion does not just "exhitbit dwarf characteristics" or "have poor conformation". Those things are opinions. Not facts. It has been stated that this stallion* has produced dwarf foals*. So it is certain that he is a carrier. That makes a big difference to me.

Correct me if I am wrong Parmela.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Jan 5, 2012)

Well...I am not going to throw any names out here...because it is not my place to do so....but all I have to say about that is that is a good darn thing that a very reputable breeder in the miniature horse industry did not give up on and incredible miniature horse, because he produced a dwarf. She learned the proper way to breed him. If she would have gelded him when the dwarf was born, the miniature horse world would be missing literally "hundreds" of World Champions. This is a fact.


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## HGFarm (Jan 5, 2012)

I think the OP was basicly asking for a way to advise the folks inquiring that she didnt want to sell them the mare. Perhaps just saying something to the effect of 'I am thinking about removing her from the sale list' or something generic- without hurting their feelings or pointing out the defects of their herd. Could they possibly tell you they were not going to use her for breeding when they really are? Likely, so I would not even ask, as it is an open ended question that could invite an untruthful answer.

If they were able to see the terrific faults with their current stallion, I am sure they would be gelding or replacing him with a better one, since so many nice ones are available at such reasonable prices. Since this is not the case, I dont know how much they are really 'in to' upgrading their herd or breeding stock.

Parmela, I think you know the answer on whether to sell or not, it's just how to get out of it gracefully. I dont know of any way to do that, as I am sure if turned down, they are going to ask why.


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## Reble (Jan 5, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I'll try to keep this generic enough so that hopefully no one ends up offended.
> 
> How would you handle this?
> 
> ...


Good Luck but sounds like you already know what you want to do.

I also have seen some web sites that take terrible pictures, and when you see them in person are amazed that it was the same horse.


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## ohmt (Jan 5, 2012)

After reading this whole thread, I must say that there are some truly AWESOME people on this forum! I say that including those on both sides of the argument on here. Parmela-I so very much admire you for your stance on dwarfism and that you don't just talk the talk, but you walk the walk and have gone through heartbreaking experiences to better the breed. You are an amazing individual



I also love what has been said on the other side of the spectrum as well because that is what my stance would be in the situation. Even though this has gotten a bit heated, I hope you all know that you are some very classy people. It is a difficult situation to be in and I don't believe Parmela would purposely try to hurt anyone's feelings unless she thought it was in her horse's best interest. I hope she'll do it in a respectful manner, and I'm sure she will.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Jan 5, 2012)

My point in this is....To me, personally, I would rather tell a white lie...that won't harm anyone and say...I have someone ahead of you looking at the mare. I will let you know. That is all it would take. But I would NOT post this on a public forum and risk the hurt feelings of "whoever these people are". The benefit is not worth the risk IMO. If they are tech savvy enough to have a website, then most likely they know about and have visited or even frequent LilBeginnings. I will never knowingly risk hurting anyone like that. I know lots of people praise certain practices and beliefs and that is OK....this forum is full of supportive people. But the praise is not worth the risk in this situation...JMHO.


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## susanne (Jan 5, 2012)

Like Parmela, I would have a difficult time with this situation. I would not want to offend the buyer, but I would place greater importance on the welfare of my defenseless mare, especially with people who have proof of what their stallion produces.

Nor would I sell a mare to someone planning to breed her to a stallion too large for her. No offense there, as I love the taller minis, but I still would not subject a horse to a dangerous breeding so long as she was in my custody.

How would I handle Parmela's situation? I would most likely say as little as possible while still being politely clear that no sale would occur. If they demanded a reason, I'd then be more specific. I'd allow them to save face, but I'd not allow then to buy my mare.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 5, 2012)

Dwarfism is in EVERY bloodline, i am sure of this, if it is not known to be in a certain group of horses it is because the owner does not disclose this in public.

Parmela has some outstanding horses, she has bred some truly beautiful horses and that is not an easy feat. I feel she has every right to decide whom she sells to.

I just hope I never become so "knowledgeable" that i consider myself the "fashion police" and start telling individual farms what to breed and what not to.

If i feel a horse that i have at my farm is not a good fit for someone looking to purchase it, i will state just that, no more (even when ask.)

My goal is to never hurt someones feelings or to cause someone embarrassment.

I do not know who these people are but i truly wish them well in their Miniature Horse Endeavors, and hope they find the right horse for their farm.


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## susanne (Jan 5, 2012)

If more breeders had Parmela's integrity, we might be further ahead in lessening the impact of the dwarf gene upon our breed. The answer is simple: put the welfare of the horse FIRST.


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## Minimor (Jan 5, 2012)

susanne said:


> If more breeders had Parmela's integrity, we might be further ahead in lessening the impact of the dwarf gene upon our breed. The answer is simple: put the welfare of the horse FIRST.


I would say she can put the welfare of her horse first without offending the interested party. In a situation like there there is absolutely no point in being blunt and telling them their stallion is a dwarf. They probably don't want to hear that, won't see it and won't listen--you cause hard feelings and all for nothing. I'm not suggesting Parmela should sell her mare if they do want to buy--I'm just saying that there is no point in offering information that is sure to offend.

Would I sell a mare to these people in these circumstances? No, probably not. I might not even if the stallion weren’t a dwarf, but simply had really horrendous (in my view) conformation—that is my choice, I can decide not to sell to someone simply because I don’t like that person! I do not condemn you for choosing to not sell your horse in this case. I do, however, agree that there is much arrogance in this thread. I would have simply dealt with the situation as I chose to—I would have no need to get validation from people on any forum and I would have no need to deliberately cut down someone’s horses, especially when they do not ask for my critique. People generally have their website address in their signature because they are proud of their animals and breeding program, not because they are wanting everyone they contact to critique their horses. So, rabbitsfizz was blunt with someone about the quality (or lack thereof) of their horse…did it do any good? Obviously not, since by her own admission the person in question did not change anything as a result of her critique. It made her feel good about herself I guess (sounds like it anyway) but did it help the owners or any horses? Doesn't sound like it.


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## susanne (Jan 6, 2012)

.

Holly, I'm guessing you didn't read my previous post.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Jan 6, 2012)

Minimor said:


> People generally have their website address in their signature because they are proud of their animals and breeding program, not because they are wanting everyone they contact to critique their horses.


But isn't it human nature to be curious? Are you saying that you wouldn't do any sort of home check when you sell a horse? You also can't tell me that you haven't come across a breeders website and thought to yourself "Man, I really like those horses" or vise versa. That's still a critique in my opinion. Everyone who goes on a breeders website critiques it. From the actual horses to the background to the font, it will be critiqued (even if only mentally) by everyone who clicks on it.

Parmela, I would just tell them that someone else had interest before them, or that you have decided to retain her for your breeding program for a little bit. Good for you for not wanting to sell your mare to a home that might produce dwarfs, knowingly or not.


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## Rockin Angels (Jan 6, 2012)

I have read this post with great interest because I have been a lurker for many years and I have gained a great deal of knowledge from this board and my own personal experiences I'd like to offer my two cents. Please don't expect that because I've only been a lurker means I don't know what I'm talking about or that I'm inexperienced because I am not. I also don't want any of this post to come off as being arrogant, because I'm not arrogant either.

 

 First Parmela- keeping your focus on the mare and the "possible" future confirms my solid opinion of you and your integrity as a horse owner. You could have simply looked at the financial side of things and took their money and sold your horse. Instead you chose to come to a board that offers many opinions to voice your concerns. I applaud that decision. 

 

 My first attempt in response to this inquiry from this potential buyer would be to state that I don't think she would fit with your program. If they then question you as to why I would then inform them of my concerns and I would use this wonderful site to educate them. One of the best things I've done as a responsible owner of my horses is to educate myself using this site and other respected Point them to the article in the "best of lil beginnings thread " on dwarfism.

 

 



rabbitsfizz said:


> I was not willing to play Russian Roulette with her ..


Exactly – we are their caretakers on earth and we have a responsibility to TAKE CARE of these wonderful animals we have been blessed with.

 



lil hoofbeats said:


> You are right Mary Lou. I have a problem telling them to. Who is to say that they are not breeding exactly what they like??
> 
> I do not think anyone intentionally breeds dwarfs. However one of the most loving horses i ever had the privledge of knowing was a dwarf. Does she have value? YOU BET SHE DOES! Maybe just not in everyones "expert" opinion.
> 
> ...


 

 BUT it takes a responsible person to consider where they may be placing their animals and to control what they know can be potentially dangerous for that animal.

 

 



lil hoofbeats said:


> "help" someone by telling them the horses they are producing are substandard, and inferior. And they are not "good," "responsible" horse breeders such as yourself is an insult...and borderlines on just plain bad manners.
> 
> Its really saddening that people can be so harsh and cruel to one another, my heart hurts for them, and i hope that one persons "expert" opinion does not stop them from enjoying and loving their miniature horses, and all the wonderful experiences they provide.


 

 No one is saying (at least that's how I take this thread) that a dwarf has does not have value or deserves to be loved. But to intentionally breed for this trait *is irresponsible and uneducated*. Those who have the knowledge of possible outcomes for the mare and foal should be *responsible and educate*. To PROPERLY communicate can be done without arrogance or insults. Yes there are those that intentionally breed for Dwarfs because they think they are "cute" and there can be "greed" that goes along with that. I have visited many many farms IN PERSON and I have seen first-hand some deplorable conditions that people keep their minis in just for the sake of making a buck. They don't care about the animal, they care about money.

 

 



StarRidgeAcres said:


> It may offend them but I'd much rather do that and maybe "wake them up" than see another horse suffer. And although I will probably be wasting my breath, I will know that I did my part by speaking up for an animal that can't speak for itself. I will sleep just fine tonight.


 

 I LOVE your "BIG girl panties" Keep putting them on!!!

 

 



rabbitsfizz said:


> I have been waiting ages to use that emoticon, thank you (yes, I am _am_ sad)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


<br style=""><br style="">  

 EXACTLY <br style=""> <br style="">


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## Rockin Angels (Jan 6, 2012)

AND THEN SOME MORE







lil hoofbeats said:


> Parmela, if you are going to tell these people that their horses are inferior and not up to your standards, please also tell them that there are others that would never insult them, or tell them how to spend their money, or what the "best" horse to have is .
> 
> I sincerely hope they are not aware of this forum, and are not watching what people are saying about the horse/horses they raise and own.
> 
> ...


It's not about standards or insults- it's ethics



Debby said:


> Jane I don't think the people in question "publicly invited" a critique of their stock or asked Parmela if she thought her horse would be a good match for their stallion etc.. if I missed that I'm sorry. If they asked your advice then by all means tell them "I do not think they would make a good match". If they want to know why the two horses would not make a good breeding match then tell them that the neck is too short, head is too big… if they are thick skinned enough to inquire further about your feelings then point out that some of the conformation flaws are what you see as dwarf characteristics. Be open for discussion IF THEY ASK.
> 
> I very much agree with the reasoning behind this post. I hold Parmela in great esteem as far as her integrity and breeding program goes However my feelings are if you want to critique the people's stallion as part of the buying process then you should make that known on your sales advertising…maybe "_Please be aware that I will scrutinize your breeding program for dwarfism characteristics before considering placing this mare._" ..or something to that effect.
> 
> I would not put a horse up for public sale and then have to worry about who was going to inquire. To wait until someone inquires and then dig around and pick apart their horses, make it public then inform them they are breeding dwarf traits would come off as being arrogant in any scenario I can see.



I believe when they inquired about purchasing her mare that gave her the invitation. I also don't see anywhere in this thread that she picked apart their horses. She shows a just concern about 1 horse, a horse her mare could possibly be bred to and therefore she has every right to consider the consequences should she sell in this situation.



Mini Gaits Farm said:


> I find this entire initial post disturbing. What entitles any of us to critique another's breeding program, if we are not asked to do so. The most important aspect in selling horses is to sell them to someone that will take good care of them...ie...feeding, worming, vet, farrier, vaccination, dentistry....etc..... I am most in agreeance with Debby and Julie with my opinion on this. Who is to say what will happen to this mare in the future. You may sell her to what you "think" is the perfect home only for them to not care for her properly and pass her off to the first people who come along and then those people breed her to a dwarf or whatever else. Honestly...if I were that concerned...I would keep the mare. When we sell horses, their future is out of our hands. Yes...we "try" to put them in the best home that we can....but it doesn't always work out that way. Best of luck to all involved with this. I also hope the potential buyers are not members of LilBeginnings. I would be crushed at first and then furious later if I found this post and knew that I was the one in question.


You cannot foresee every situation but when you can you should be proactive about it. I have given horses to a relative and IF I see that horse is not being taken care of I WILL TAKE IT BACK. I don't think that is a concern but if it ever came to that I wouldn't hesitate.



Mini Gaits Farm said:


> My point in this is....To me, personally, I would rather tell a white lie...that won't harm anyone and say...I have someone ahead of you looking at the mare. I will let you know. That is all it would take. But I would NOT post this on a public forum and risk the hurt feelings of "whoever these people are". The benefit is not worth the risk IMO. If they are tech savvy enough to have a website, then most likely they know about and have visited or even frequent LilBeginnings. I will never knowingly risk hurting anyone like that. I know lots of people praise certain practices and beliefs and that is OK....this forum is full of supportive people. But the praise is not worth the risk in this situation...JMHO.


<br style=""><br style=""> 
One white lie would lead to another white lie then where would it end? I personally don't want to deal with anyone who won't be honest with me. When I catch someone in a lie it just makes me question their integrity. Properly handled no one gets hurt but Parmela still has her integrity and I would value that. If they frequent LilBeginnings and see this thread they also have a right to defend their opinions, and they are entitled to those opinions however I still hope that this thread would educate them and perhaps change their minds about the proposed breeding of a horse because they WANT a dwarf.



susanne said:


> If more breeders had Parmela's integrity, we might be further ahead in lessening the impact of the dwarf gene upon our breed. The answer is simple: put the welfare of the horse FIRST.


Well said!!!!!



WashingtonCowgirl said:


> But isn't it human nature to be curious? Are you saying that you wouldn't do any sort of home check when you sell a horse? You also can't tell me that you haven't come across a breeders website and thought to yourself "Man, I really like those horses" or vise versa. That's still a critique in my opinion. Everyone who goes on a breeders website critiques it. From the actual horses to the background to the font, it will be critiqued (even if only mentally) by everyone who clicks on it.
> 
> Parmela, I would just tell them that someone else had interest before them, or that you have decided to retain her for your breeding program for a little bit. Good for you for not wanting to sell your mare to a home that might produce dwarfs, knowingly or not.


Then if she says this and they see the mare perhaps still for sale down the road and they inquire again what does she then tell them? Another lie?????

See I've not posted in years and all of the sudden I have diarrhea of the mouth (fingers) LOL

<br style=""> <br style="">


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## Minimor (Jan 6, 2012)

> But isn't it human nature to be curious? Are you saying that you wouldn't do any sort of home check when you sell a horse? You also can't tell me that you haven't come across a breeders website and thought to yourself "Man, I really like those horses" or vise versa. That's still a critique in my opinion. Everyone who goes on a breeders website critiques it. From the actual horses to the background to the font, it will be critiqued (even if only mentally) by everyone who clicks on it.


I'm not saying that one shouldn't look at the website. And sure, I've looked at plenty of websites and sometimes thought NICE and sometimes thought EWWWWW. And yes, I already said that I could very well decide not to sell a horse to some certain individual for whatever reason. Do all the "mental critiques" you want, but what is the point in going out of your way to be rude (though some call it "blunt" or "straightforward" or even "honest") to someone, a stranger, who inquires on a horse you've advertised for sale? It serves no purpose other than to make you feel proud of yourself.
If someone comes to you wanting advice or assistance in evaluating their horses, then perhaps some blunt advice will benefit.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 6, 2012)

Thank you Rockin Angels for taking time to read, and post on this thread.

Let me clarify for you, that it looks like everyone agrees with Parmela on the fact that she has the right not to sell or to sell to whom ever she pleases. _*It is her horse and she can decide what to do with it.*_ I am pretty sure everyone thinks that is correct. _*Parmela s integrity is impeccable, and i commend her for not putting her horse in a compromising position!*_

The issue here is should she take it upon herself the "educate" these people by telling them their horses/horses are not quality? The way i read this thread is these people did _*NOT*_ ask her opinion of their breeding program, they only inquired about a horse that she put up for public sale.

At what point does anyone become expert enough to tell someone else their horses in inferior?

Is is when I raise a National Top Ten? As stated, we all know World Champions that have produced dwarfism.

Is it when I have produced, nice foals?

Is it when i get a breeder of the year award?

When i visit someones website i critique every horse i see. However i have never felt compelled to email them and tell them their horses are substandard, and they have an inferior breeding program. If i did this i am not sure at what point my integrity would intertwine with my arrogance. It is NEVER a good idea to make ones self feel good at someone elses expense.

Again, everyone agrees here that Parmela is making a correct choice by not selling to this breeder. The disagreement is whether it is ok to tell them( or anyone i guess) that their horses are inferior and their breeding program is substandard. What would give me or anyone else the right to do this?


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## Rockin Angels (Jan 6, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> Thank you Rockin Angels for taking time to read, and post on this thread.
> 
> Let me clarify for you, that it looks like everyone agrees with Parmela on the fact that she has the right not to sell or to sell to whom ever she pleases. _*It is her horse and she can decide what to do with it.*_ I am pretty sure everyone thinks that is correct. _*Parmela s integrity is impeccable, and i commend her for not putting her horse in a compromising position!*_
> 
> ...


 

As I previously stated "I believe when *they inquired* about purchasing her mare that gave her the invitation. I also don't see anywhere in this thread that she picked apart their horses. She shows a just concern about 1 horse, a horse her mare could possibly be bred to and therefore she has every right to consider the consequences should she sell in this situation. " So if I was in that situation I would simply state that although I appreciate the interest they have in my mare I would regretfully have to decline selling as their intention to breed for dwarfism is something I could not purposely chance placing my mare into that situation. I did not with that statement make a derogatory comment about their horses, none of them. I stated that the proposed pregnancy would be a jeopardy I would not place my mare into.

 

I also don't see how anyone reading this thread would take any one comment made and believe the intention was to as you say "make ones self feel good at someone elses expense". I'm not seeing the "feel good" at all?????

 

Additionally if I was thinned skinned (which I'm not) I could consider your opening remark condescending towards myself for posting. I've not noticed that you've not "Thanked" others for posting. It's totally how we interpret the writings of the poster and I believe that some have taken Parmela's original post out of context and I was clarifying for some as you graciously clarified for me.

 

As Suzanne posted yesterday "I would most likely say as little as possible while still being politely clear that no sale would occur. *If they demanded a reason,* I'd then be more specific. I'd allow them to save face, but I'd not allow then to buy my mare."

It's also not about being an expert it's ethics.


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## Reble (Jan 6, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> How would you handle this?
> 
> I'm generally not at a loss, but this one has stumped me.


Just wondering how you handled it and how everything turned out?


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## Mona (Jan 6, 2012)

I agree with lil hoofbeats. I feel the same as you in that Parmela definitelyb has integrity and that is not where the "insult" (for lack of a better term) lies. I too agree that the problem is not that she won't sell her horse to these people...she (as do we all) have the right to inspect any/all prospective homes and refuse sales to any person, should there be some reason that one might feel uncomfortable with, in allowing a horse of theirs to go to that home. But I agree that it is the fact that Parmela is stating that the horse is a dwarf and has produced(one or more dwarfs)

I totally disagree that just because a person contacts another about a sale horse, that it is an invitation for the seller to tear apart all of the horses in the breeding program of a potential buyer. Like others have said, sure, you may think it, but it is pretty bold to think it is your duty to start cutting down their efforts. Sure, if they ask, then fine, but otherwise, I would think not.

Also, we are all sitting here accepting the "fact" that the stallion in question is an actual dwarf. So our answers hinge on that, BUT, is Parmela seeing an actual full-blown dwarf or is it dwarf characteristics that she is basing these opinions on??

If an actual fully visible, no-mistaking it dwarf, and the people asked me why I won't sell to them, I would just explain that the welfare of my mares is of the utmost importance to me, and I feel that in your program she may be knowingly endangered due to the stallion being a dwarf. There are always risks with breeding anything, so you wouldn't want to add to that risk by her being bred by a dwarf knowing the severe foaling problems that can result, endangering the life of the mare even more. BUT, I sure don't think it would be called for to tell someone they have a dwarf as their herd sire if she feels he shows only characteristics.

I can see both sides to this, but treading carefully and tactfully would be best in my opinion. I mean really, how many of us would like to be in those shoes. You see this awesome mare for sale, inquire about it, only to have the seller come back and tell you they won't sell to you because you are using a dwarf as a herd sire. I know many will say they wish when they started someone had been so blunt with them, but I think being that nwbie, and not using the hindsight to view it from, are two different things. We all progress (or at least that should be our goal as breeders) in quality of our horses as we move forward in our breeding programs,


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## disneyhorse (Jan 6, 2012)

I think that it is just fine to be bluntly honest... A seller has every right to evaluate the possible home for their horses and give the reason to deny the buyer.

I remember a few years ago I wanted a Modern Shetland colt. One seller flat out told me she wouldn't sell me a stallion, only a gelding or mare, because I showed as an amateur and hadn't shown a Modern stallion before. (mind you, I handled four Andalusian stallions in my barn that lived there.) She simply felt they were too hot and she always sent them to her trainer.

I was kind of offended, but found a colt somewhere else that is loved greatly <3


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## horsehug (Jan 6, 2012)

Excellent post, Mona. I of course agree it is totally an owner's right to choose to sell or not to sell to anyone and to try to find a very kind way to state that.

But I have been following this thread and also wondering if these breeders specifically say they breed dwarfs and are fine with it, and also if their stallion is an actual dwarf or just to "some" might appear to have characteristics.

Susan O.


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## Flying minis (Jan 6, 2012)

Ok, so I'm going to step in and say something. There are a lot of assumptions being made - primarily that the buyer KNOWS that their stallion is a dwarf - and KNOWS that is a congenital fault and all the issues that go with it.

When I got my first minis I was VERY lucky. I had no idea that there were dwarves, or any of the complications that go with them. I thought the smaller the better. I purchased 2 minis at auction who thankfully were good quality animals. AFTER that I started learning about the breed, and realized how lucky I was, and how many people that are "breeding" minis don't have information - good example, a neighbor stopped by one day and saw my one mini in the pasture and asked if she was for sale, because he didn't "have a black and white mare for black and white babies." And then he was upset that I wouldn't sell a finished driving horse for less than $500, saying "I could get as many as I want for $50 each."

What I'm saying is, IF these people KNOW they are breeding for congenital faults in dwarves, or purposely doing so, to heck with worrying whether you insult them - I would say I don't agree with breeding dwarves, and don't want my mare being used for that.

HOWEVER, if they are not aware, this is a GREAT opportunity to very politely and in a very gentle manner EDUCATE them regarding miniatures, dwarves, and the consequences.

That requires some questioning to determine their knowledge level and intent, then take the action that seems appropriate.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 6, 2012)

Thanks for all the responses! I do appreciate all the advice on approach and opinions.





I did get a second inquiry from the person. They did indicate breeding as a potential use for her, but did not mention a specific stallion. And it's possible that someone would buy a mare with the intentions of breeding to a specific outside stallion (not on their site) but that's not as likely as breeding to the stallion you have 24/7 access to. So, since I do feel a _responsiblity to the horses_, I took that as an opportunity to diccuss my concerns if they were planning to breed her to the stallion shown on their site. I said that, based on the pictures available on the site, that I felt the stallion carried the dwarf gene. I asked if they had knowledge of what that was and that my reasoning for thinking so was the length of his back compared to the length of his legs (extreme case here) and then the picture of two of his foals, which appear to have characteristics as well. I explained the danger to a mare when trying to foal a dwarf foal and also the need to not perpetuate the _genetic_ _defect_.

Their response was not one of anger or shock. It was of denial.



They do not see it and described their stallion as "perfect in every way." They said he's even been sold and will be leaving this summer so want to breed a couple more mares to him before he goes. And of course, he's been sold "internationally."





There was more to the exchange than that, but those are the highlights. I personally believe they know and don't care or even like it. I also don't think they are interested in any education as they clearly already know all they need to. But at least I can live with myself because I feel like I tried. I can't control them but I can at least try to educate.

I left it at she is not a good fit for them and if they decide they would like further information so they could investigate dwarfism on their own I'd be happy to send them some links. I wished them well.

So, for those folks who don't feel like I had the right to offer my opinion on their stallion, all I can say is we agree to disagree. But I am also the person who will, and has, stopped my car on the side of the road when I see a skinny horse and start nosing around until I can find out who owns it and what is going on. Animals can't speak for themselves and I happen to have a big mouth



so I often volunteer my services.





Thanks to all who responded.


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 6, 2012)

You did what I would have done, but an awful lot more diplomatically!!


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 6, 2012)

Thank you Flying Minis for taking time to read and post on this thread.

If i decided to breed dwarfs(which i do not) i am not sure if i would look at really quality mares at high end prices to do it with.

So that might answer several questions.

All bloodlines have potential to produce dwarfs. Therefore that old say'in comes to mind, "those that live in glass houses should not throw rocks."

The questions at hand are, is it OK to slander someone about their breeding program?

Is a public forum, gently and quietly enough?

Do you really think these people do not know they are the center of attention on this thread?

When do i become an expert?

When does anyone that has written on this thread become an expert?

When is it OK for me or anyone else on this forum to tell others what kind, when and how many to breed?

Is it OK for me to tell anyone that inquires about a horse from my farm, that their horses are inferior, and my horses are really too good for their breeding program?

Integrity and arrogance are two completely different things, and sometimes it is difficult for me to know where the line is.


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## Flying minis (Jan 6, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> Thank you Flying Minis for taking time to read and post on this thread.
> 
> If i decided to breed dwarfs(which i do not) i am not sure if i would look at really quality mares at high end prices to do it with.
> 
> ...



I chose to repy to the OPs original question re: how to discuss her concerns with the seller. Whether it was appropriate to bring up on a forum is a question that can be debated continuall. Personally though, I appreciate that people are willing to share their knowledge, and I recognize that what they share is their OPINION. And all should be taken with a grain of salt. I don't think any one said the seller should tell the buyer their horses are inferior, or that hers were too good for them. She seemed to have a legitimate concern for her horse, and wished to find a way to diplomatically state her OPINION, which I believe she did.

To me the difference in integrity and arrogance lie in how the message is communicated. That's why some people can be "experts" and be considered arrogant, and others, who may or may not be "experts" are respected.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 6, 2012)

To me the difference in integrity and arrogance lie in how the message is communicated. That's why some people can be "experts" and be considered arrogant, and others, who may or may not be "experts" are respected.

Thank you, That is an excellent answer. And one i will remember.

My hope in life is to never be condescending to anyone. My hope for this thread is that it got everyone thinking. Hopefully people opened their minds to new ideas and thoughts, i know i did.

I am sure Parmela did the right thing for this situation.

I also hope that we all remember that there is a real person, with feelings and emotions, on the other end of our emails. And when we send them, to send them with kind words.

Whether you agree or disagree with what has been stated. Everyone on this forum has an opinion, and that opinion matters! I value differences, because it teaches me to look at things from different perspectives.

I will always take an opportunity to learn.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Jan 6, 2012)

The only way to control the destiny of a horse is to keep it......and then we are not really in control...we just think we are. It could die of colic, a dystocia (not associated with carrying a dwarf foal), or of many other reasons while in the care of the best horseman/horsewoman. All of our horses are just gifts...on loan from God. I have learned a lot from this thread...and I am not being sarcastic at all about it.....I have learned that I always want to be empathetic towards "humans" because honestly....their feelings are as important as the horses....or at least they should be. If we lose touch with that concept....then what do we really have? Nothing in my opinion. I was raised to "do unto others as you would have them do unto you"....and in this case, how many of you could accept this if you were the person that inquired?....I bet not many, if any, of you would like it. I know I wouldn't. How many of you have the perspective to put yourself in their shoes and just "pretend" for a moment that you were the potential buyer in this case? And to whomever quoted me in this as saying "I would tell a white lie that was harmless and would hurt no one to spare the feelings of this potential buyer" and said they wouldn't ever dream of doing something like that because one lie leads to another..yadda yadda.....I have inquired on and purchased several horses over the years, and if someone told me that there was another buyer ahead of me or that they have decided to hold on to the horse for awhile.....I wouldn't question it....not at all....I have never wanted a horse bad enough to dig and dig and dig for the reason that it was not for sale to me. That would be it....end of story...and the little white lie would have spared all of this. Worth it in my opinion...and harmless. Best wishes to all involved.


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## pinkapache (Jan 6, 2012)

Maybe you could say you have decided not to sell her? After all..you have...decided not to sell your horse to her! I agree with the posters who spoke about being your horse`s only advocate and listening to gut instinct, IF IN DOUBHT, LEAVE IT OUT. Placing your horse in a new home is the last and most important thing you do for them. All the best.


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## Minimor (Jan 6, 2012)

Rockin Angel—you honestly believe that when someone inquires about a horse that is listed for sale, that gives the owner of the sale horse an invitation to pick apart some horse(s) on the buyer’s website? Soooo, you would honestly not have a problem with a seller who—after you contacted that seller about a stallion on their sales list—replied to you with something to the effect of “I’m sorry, but I don’t feel this is the horse for you….I’ve looked at your website and find that all your mares are substandard, they have big heads or short legs or bad hips or some combination of all 3 and therefore are not what I want this stallion to be bred to, so you cannot have him” (Please note I am not saying these things about your mares; I have never been to your website so have no idea what you have for horses!) You would be okay with that, because you inquired on their stallion and therefore invited the person to critique your mares? And you would be okay with it if you found out that seller then came to this board and posted about what she had done (or maybe she posted here before she actually replied to your query) and a bunch of people posted with praise for her for being so helpful and forthright, standing up for what is right in the Miniature horse world? You would REALLY be okay with that?


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## Rockin Angels (Jan 6, 2012)

Minimor said:


> Rockin Angel—you honestly believe that when someone inquires about a horse that is listed for sale, that gives the owner of the sale horse an invitation to pick apart some horse(s) on the buyer's website? Soooo, you would honestly not have a problem with a seller who—after you contacted that seller about a stallion on their sales list—replied to you with something to the effect of "I'm sorry, but I don't feel this is the horse for you….I've looked at your website and find that all your mares are substandard, they have big heads or short legs or bad hips or some combination of all 3 and therefore are not what I want this stallion to be bred to, so you cannot have him" (Please note I am not saying these things about your mares; I have never been to your website so have no idea what you have for horses!) You would be okay with that, because you inquired on their stallion and therefore invited the person to critique your mares? And you would be okay with it if you found out that seller then came to this board and posted about what she had done (or maybe she posted here before she actually replied to your query) and a bunch of people posted with praise for her for being so helpful and forthright, standing up for what is right in the Miniature horse world? You would REALLY be okay with that?


 

I did not see in this thread where anyone chose to pick apart the sellers horses in fact the statement was made that the horses looked well cared for. The concern was the possible future of the mare. IF bred to a dwarf stallion. THE WELFARE OF THE MARE gives the OWNER of the mare the right to go forward with the sale if they so choose or to refuse to sell. What you are proposing is a entirely different scenario. THEREFORE lets compare apples to apples and say that I contact a seller about a stallion for sale and I have DWARF mares I want to have bred by this stallion. The seller then has every right to tell me no they would not sell their stallion to me for this use. YES YES YES. We are not talking about just a confirmation flaw but a genetic problem that I do not believe should be purposely continued. AND YES I would be ok with her coming to this forum to voice her concerns and standing up for the welfare of her horse. Not a problem.


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## mini horse mania (Jan 6, 2012)

IMHO. ..I would be truly offended and hurt if someone refused to sell me a mare because my stallion didn't meet their standards and then told me what THEY saw wrong with him ...I may like the stallion...and chose to breed with him for my breeding program for a reason.everyone breeds for something different...the mare was offered for sale. ...to the PUBLIC.... as i gather it.the only way you can determine the destiny of your mare is to keep her.... I agree it your horse and you can choose where she goes...but i would feel as if you thought my horses were substandard to yours if you told me what was "wrong" with my horse. Just because I don't like Appaloosas does not mean that everyone on this forum doesnt like them either..

Is this stallion really a dwarf or Just looks unproportioned in the pictures?


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## slv (Jan 6, 2012)

I find it very difficult to believe that overseas buyers have purchased this stallion and are going to pay quarentine to get him there if he is a dwarf. I am sure we will never really know....but does this make sense to any of you? I mean really....last I heard the overseas buyers had really wised up on their USA purchases. They won't even buy from professional photos alone. They want lots of information and photos. The overseas buyers are not so naive.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 6, 2012)

mini horse mania said:


> Is this stallion really a dwarf or Just looks unproportioned in the pictures?



Based on his pics, I would have wondered, but when he also has produced at least two (also based on pics on their site) I'd say there is no doubt...at least for me.



slv said:


> I find it very difficult to believe that overseas buyers have purchased this stallion and are going to pay quarentine to get him there if he is a dwarf. I am sure we will never really know....but does this make sense to any of you? I mean really....last I heard the overseas buyers had really wised up on their USA purchases. They won't even buy from professional photos alone. They want lots of information and photos. The overseas buyers are not so naive.


I totally agree with you. It may have not been a true story. I hope it's not true.


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## Minimor (Jan 7, 2012)

Rockin’ Angel—you said earlier



> As I previously stated "I believe when they inquired about purchasing her mare that gave her the invitation.


 Quite plainly you are saying than an inquiry gives invitation to the seller to look at your horses and critique them. So, if the seller is someone who feels very strongly about what conformation should/should not be used for breeding he/she may feel justified in pointing out conformation flaws he/she sees in your horses, and telling you that those conformation flaws are reason for not selling the horse to you. It’s all the same—sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
Parmela said:



> that my reasoning for thinking so was the length of his back compared to the length of his legs (extreme case here) and then the picture of two of his foals, which appear to have characteristics as well


 The traits you described this stallion as having….is that the sum total of what you label dwarf in this case? Because if so, there are huge numbers of dwarves being used for breeding…there are dwarves winning major championships! I still see many horses with those traits in various breeding programs and show win photos from all over the country. Sometimes it may be the dwarf gene, sometimes it may just be poor conformation.


> Based on his pics, I would have wondered, but when he also has produced at least two (also based on pics on their site) I'd say there is no doubt...at least for me.


 You would have wondered if it really is dwarfism in the stallion, but since 2 foals also have similar conformation, that confirms it for you. The thing is, bad conformation passes on to foals, so the fact that the foals have similar conformation may indicate the dwarfism you suspect, or it may simply be bad conformation that is being passes on. It would seem this case of dwarfism isn’t as cut & dried as was first suggested.


> So, for those folks who don't feel like I had the right to offer my opinion on their stallion, all I can say is we agree to disagree. But I am also the person who will, and has, stopped my car on the side of the road when I see a skinny horse and start nosing around until I can find out who owns it and what is going on. Animals can't speak for themselves and I happen to have a big mouth so I often volunteer my services.


Now that statement really comes across as smug superiority! Do you really think that those of us who disagree with you about the right to offer your opinion on another person’s stallion don’t also take an interest or concern ourselves with the welfare of mistreated or malnourished horses (or any animal) we may encounter? REALLY? If you really believe this is the case—and your words imply exactly that!—then you truly are too arrogant for words.

In any case, how does your history of nosing around & trying to help an underfed horse give you the right to critique a stranger’s horse?


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 7, 2012)

Minimor said:


> you truly are too arrogant for



Maybe so. Either way, this is how I chose to handle to situation.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 7, 2012)

Minimor those are my sentiments exactly!

I never really thought that i had the right to slam someone elses breeding program , insult them by telling them that their stallion is a dwarf, or producing dwarfs, or intentionally trying to breed dwarfs (not too sure at this point what the situation really is, seems to change with whatever s needed at that moment.)

Then ask for validation of what a wonderful person i am for telling these people their horses are substandard, and their breeding program was not up to par enough for my mare, on a public forum (that the individuals in question would surely see).

Then when forum members bring up some very valid points to consider, defend myself by saying,

So, for those folks who don't feel like I had the right to offer my opinion on their stallion, all I can say is we agree to disagree. But I am also the person who will, and has, stopped my car on the side of the road when I see a skinny horse and start nosing around until I can find out who owns it and what is going on. Animals can't speak for themselves and I happen to have a big mouth so I often volunteer my services.

I mean seriously??? This is the only defense i would need???

If i defend some malnourished animals, i have the right critique everyone's breeding programs?


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## slv (Jan 7, 2012)

I once inquired on breeding to an outside stallion. This horse is a World Champion Stallion. I was told by the owner and breeder of the stallion that this horse is a little long in the back and their only request was that I send a short backed mare to be bred to him. I totally understand that. One should never "double up" on faults. I would also like to add that sometimes photos do not resize themselves correctly on websites and I have actually seen some sites where the horses look malconformed, but I am sure it is just the photos. I am not saying this is the case in this scenario, but it surely could be. At any rate, the OP has taken quite a beating here on this post. I do feel as though it is so very very wrong to critique and publically slam someone elses breeding program. I totally disagree with anyone that says inquiring on a horse listed for sale to the public gives the seller the right to do this. It is just wrong. Very unethical to say the least. I believe there are people that thrive on hearing "you have so much integrity", "there should be more people just like you", "you walk the walk and talk the talk", so on and on. If you need praise or a pat on the back, try to get in another way, because hurting others doesn't make me feel this way about you at all. Integrity is one important personality trait, but there are so many more traits that have been betrayed in this scenario. I personally would never inquire on a horse that the OP had for sale, under any circumstances after reading all of this. This, to me, is a true case of "Buyer Beware".


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## Carolyn R (Jan 7, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I'll try to keep this generic enough so that hopefully no one ends up offended.
> 
> How would you handle this? Someone inquires on a horse. It's not someone you already know. Their email contains a website, so of course that's something I would check out...even before answering their questions. You see something on the site that is a no-no for you. I'm not talking about abuse or dangerous activity,etc. All their horses look extremely well taken care of, etc. But if breeding is what they have in mind, regarding the initial inquiry, then it's not someone I'm going to sell to.
> 
> ...


Wow people, this was Parmela's first post. Coming to her forum family for advice. She only elaborated on it to explain when some got, well, a bit snitty. I think if some of us would have walked in her shoes, and not only walked the walk, but talked the talk, leading by example with some very hard decisions she has made in the past, maybe we would understand her concern for her horses well being.

Great thing is, while extra cash is nice, some are not in it for the money, meaning a quick sale or a quick flip is not our thing. Buying low, selling high is great in theory, but heck, in this market breaking even is nice. Rarely does it happen when we put all the proper time and care into a horse, but all the money in the world wouldn't matter in some cases.

Parm, good for you. Regret is an awful thing rarely able to be changed, often the outcome is only being able to learn from it.

Trust me, hold out if you have doubt, the right home will come along, one you will feel comfortable with. The good Lord above gave us common sense and instincts for a reason.


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## Debby - LB (Jan 7, 2012)

We all read it Carolyn. The question was "How not to offend?" since she had already made up her mind NOT to sell the horse to these people she got some very good advice on how to bow out gracefully. I feel really, really bad for the person who inquired. I can imagine how I'd feel. The "enlightenment" was uncalled for. There are many, many ways to get the information a person needs to them... and this was not it.


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## Minimor (Jan 7, 2012)

> I think if some of us would have walked in her shoes, and not only walked the walk, but talked the talk, leading by example with some very hard decisions she has made in the past, maybe we would understand her concern for her horses well being.


Did you ever stop to consider than maybe some...many even...have been in the same position? Only thing is--they just dealt with the situation on their own without coming to a public forum for validation? So many people can make their decisions and deal with something like this--maybe in the same way, maybe in a more subtle way without slamming someone else's horse(s)--without needing anyone else to cheer them on and tell them how wonderful and upstanding they are, how much integrity they have. THOSE are the kind of people that I consider to be a class act; those are the people that are to be admired and praised--only they don't need or want praise and admiration for something like this.
However, I will say that I'm glad that this thread was posted; it's told me a lot about some people on this forum--I know who I wouldn't send a potential buyer to (and there are more than one!)--I have a new respect for some, and a new lack of respect for others.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jan 7, 2012)

Carolyn R said:


> Wow people, this was Parmela's first post. Coming to her forum family for advice. She only elaborated on it to explain when some got, well, a bit snitty. I think if some of us would have walked in her shoes, and not only walked the walk, but talked the talk, leading by example with some very hard decisions she has made in the past, maybe we would understand her concern for her horses well being.
> 
> Great thing is, while extra cash is nice, some are not in it for the money, meaning a quick sale or a quick flip is not our thing. Buying low, selling high is great in theory, but heck, in this market breaking even is nice. Rarely does it happen when we put all the proper time and care into a horse, but all the money in the world wouldn't matter in some cases.
> 
> ...


Carolyn , thank you for your thoughts and opinions, they are valuable to me and i have read them several times.

You are right! Parmela has EVERY right to think of her horse, she can sell to whom ever she wants. She can decline a sale for what ever reason she chooses, Its her horse/her choice. We all agree on that.

But please *do not *confuse her concern for the well being of the horse/ with her right to critique someone's breeding program, when she has not been ask to do so. Those people did not invite that, they only inquired about purchasing a horse( and i bet they regret doing that about right now)

And then she was asking our approval of her decision to tell these people that their horse was a substandard stallion, and their breeding program was inferior, *all put on a public forum*( which i am sure these people are aware of).

It is difficult for me to believe that anyone could think that is ok.

Then she justified her expert critiquing of their breeding program, by saying that she helped starving horses that could not speak for themselves.

Really?


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jan 7, 2012)

Thanks again to everyone who responded. It doesn't mean I have to agree with how you would have handled to appreciate your response.





And for those that have emailed me or called or messaged, please rest assured that I do not feel attacked or anything of the sort. But I do appreciate your concern. And yes, I do see a lot of the irony.





The good news is I got some great advice and it gave me a chance to play it over in my head many times before I responded. It's a public forum and everyone is entitled to their opinion. All are welcome. And if I couldn't take the heat I shouldn't participate in a public forum.

Thanks again!


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## attwoode (Jan 8, 2012)

I think the post brings up great points on both sides. If we put our animals out for sale to the public, do we have the right to "screen" buyers? And if so, under what circumstances? I think this is a personal choice and based on individual values - as can be seen by the diversity of opinions.

Since I began with minis 10 years ago I've personally been offended on a couple of occasions by the comments of other mini folks. Now, I appreciate the things that I've learned from them and for not saving my feelings. Sometimes we just need a little help from others no matter how much it might hurt. I appreciate their good intentions despite my own embarrassment and pride. I'm sure I've offended a few prospective buyers myself. You have to figure it's better to be talked to than talked about. And I'd take an honest answer over a "lost" email any day. I generally like the direct route where everyone knows where they stand, but with some tact and assuming good intentions. I don't appreciate personal opinions on things that are subjective (pretty, ugly, etc.) and try not too give them so much either.

BUT when it comes to the potential health of a horse I think I have some obligation to inform and also to receive input from others. I feel its part of my responsibility/ethic of owning and selling live animals. I speak up in the following situations: aggressive or large pasture mates, inadequate facilities (no shelter or heated water in winter); poisonous trees in their pasture; improper feed, farrier, or vet care; or a kid inquiring about a horse without parents permission. Selling a mare to a farm with a dwarf stallion would be the same sort of situation. I might also talk with the buyer about the plans for the horse and if necessary talk with them about a stallions head or bone structure being too big for a mare I was selling. But, for me that is where it stops when critiquing other folks breeding program or farm mgt - when it's about their safety.

The question for me in a situation like this is how much of a responsibility do we have to protect people's feelings and how much do we have to protect the animals? Usually if we take the time to think it through, we can find tactful ways to protect peoples feelings and still speak up when it's important to protect animals. If I don't feel comfortable, I don't have to sell my animals.


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## [email protected] (Jan 8, 2012)

Interesting topic.

Parmela I think you did the right thing. I always check out websites when offered for breeding animals (and pets), as I like to see what they potential buyer is thinking. And I do ask questions/voice my concerns if I think what they want/intend to do may not be a good idea. Too closely related, both have a similar flaw/fault, etc. BUT if it came to selling to someone with a stallion that had sired multiple dwarves and they aren't willing to admit they have a stallion issue, I definitely would not sell to them.

My horses future health, happiness may not be guaranteed once they leave here, but I do try to place them in good situations.

There are kind ways to help educate someone that may not know or care about conformation, but if they are in denial when the evidence is in front of them you can't control their actions only your own. Educating others is part of the responsibility IMHO of breeders, and we all can always be learning from others as well. But to knowingly be breeding a dwarf producer is a no-go with me.

I know a breeder that has had a dwarf born in consecutive years along with some truly gorgeous horses. I won't touch that breeding program with a ten-foot pole. Great bloodlines, but sorry, I've worked hard to keep dwarfism out of my herd and I would never willingly sell a mare into a situation where a known dwarf producing sire is used nor buy one that has that potential. There's always the potential a cross could produce a dwarf if you don't know the bloodlines/previous crosses, etc., but why purposely sell to someone that can't/won't see the obvious? I don't see that as arrogance. That is being responsible IMHO.


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## Minimor (Jan 8, 2012)

Some of you are being obtuse--not sure if that is deliberate or not.



> why purposely sell to someone that can't/won't see the obvious? I don't see that as arrogance. That is being responsible IMHO.



NO ONE has said that is wrong to refuse a sale to a certain person for any reason.

NO ONE has said it was arrogant to refuse the sale.

NO ONE has denied that refusing the sale was the responsible thing to do.

Refusing the sale was never the issue for anyone that has posted on this thread!

Perhaps a few here should re-read some of the posts, and read what they are actually saying. Not a one of them is saying that Parmela was wrong to refuse the sale!


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## Molly's Run Minis (Jan 8, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I am also the person who will, and has, stopped my car on the side of the road when I see a skinny horse and start nosing around until I can find out who owns it and what is going on. Animals can't speak for themselves and I happen to have a big mouth
> 
> 
> 
> ...



i totally admire you for that! i'm like that as well. animals cant speak for themselves, so we must speak for them. IMO, if someones delicate feelings get hurt oh well! if the life or welfare of an animal is at stake i couldnt really care less how the offender feels.


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