# EXPERIENCED LLAMA PEOPLE...



## Miniv (Aug 14, 2010)

We are NOT Llama breeders. Our knowledge is limited.

We received a pair of Llamas a number of years ago from some friends as a trade for a mini and a breeding to one of our stallions. They have been our primary advisers regarding their care.

The Llamas were shy with us and devoted to each other. They produced five crias over the years and each year we worked a little more at imprinting. The last cria, Domino, was the MOST imprinted on. Everyone loved him. We could have sold him many times, but he was so loving we chose to keep him with the plan of having him gelded.

About a week ago, the "Daddy" Llama passed away. He was about 15 years old. He just lost his appetite for a day and the next day Larry found him flat out and gone.....No warning. Is this normal???

Since then the one son we still have, Domino (he's spotted), has become VERY aggressive toward the three females we have in another pasture...one of them being his mother.

Last evening I was walking through a pasture to do some irrigation work and Domino CHARGED. He ran straight at me, reared up, and I was flat on my back. The pasture has some rocks that jut out of the ground, so I was VERY lucky that I didn't land on one of them......Instead I was a muddy mess because the place is being irrigated. I hauled myself up in total shock and began screaming bloody blue h*ll at my "beloved little pet llama"........who has NEVER shown aggression like that to me before.....

He pinned his ears and plowed over me AGAIN, this time giving me a Face Plant in the mud. That hurt.

Fortunately I was with a young fellow who was helping me with the heavy chores while Larry is away. He ran up to me and hauled me away before Dommi could charge again.

Today I called the original breeder of Dommi's parents and asked his advice. He said that our wonderful little Domino is a threat....Gelding him will not help and that he needs to be Put Down........

Is this true???

Right now I am finding ways to get around him, but he still is being aggressive - even when I'm on the ATV.


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## susanne (Aug 14, 2010)

MA, That is such an awful situation!

I don't know a thing about llamas, but I tend to believe that what is best for "livestock" isn't always best for pets -- in other words, what is worthwhile trying for a pet would not be practical for livestock.

Obviously you can't keep him as he is, but would it be worth seeing if gelding does any good? I'm thinking that all the imprinting you've done might kick in again once the hormones have gone away.

In the meantime, can you pen him to keep you and the rest of the herd (human and llama, lol) safe?

I'm sorry you have to go through this -- I remember meeting Domino when we visited.


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## laughingllama75 (Aug 14, 2010)

I am sorry this happened to you. That said, I highly reccommend you to get an EXPERIENCED llama person to help/mentor you (before someone gets killed). Male llamas especially, but ALL baby llamas should NEVER be over handled by humans. A common mistake that is made by a lot of people, because they are cute, cuddly and oh-so friendly. What your llama is exhibiting is called ABS or Aberrant Behavior Syndrome and yes.....they can seriously hurt or kill you. here is some in depth info on it:

http://www.mallonmethod.com/llearning4.html

http://www.shagbarkridge.com/info/aggressv.html

I myself own several llamas, have for 20 years (well, been in the business). I have one male now that is 14-we got him when he was 3 as a rescue and he was doing pretty much everything yours is. I was able to train him with LOTS of work (3 years before I could go in the pen without being on guard!). I had another female that I took on, as she was showing signs of ABS but after 2 years I had to put her down as she would have killed me or anyone else that got close. it was sad.....but she was in a petting zoo as a baby and she was made that way.

I am not sure what to tell you about your guy....do you have someone that could mentor you, an experienced llama vet or ??? Where are you located? I may have some contacts near you, please let me know and I will do my best to help.

Good luck, and stay out of the pen for now. And yes, they can and will jump fences so keep an eye out while you are out near the llama pens.


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## Shari (Aug 14, 2010)

MA,

I have two friends that breed Llama's, long time breeders at that and they have had males do what yours is doing. Once they get ABS, gelding won't help and sadly need to be put down.

Their behavior will get worse, even more aggressive and will kill other animals and people if they can get to them.

Know this is very hard on you but keeping you and your family safe is most important. ((Hugs))

One of the gelding llama's I got from one of them, was ok with the male sheep but would try to forcedly breed my ewes, knock them and the lambs around and then started trying to attack the mini's... the breeder came and got him and had him put down.

I felt bad but it was better than having him kill another animal or harm someone in my family.

Now the Alpaca's I had for awhile.. had them gelded.. were no problem. They were older over 6 years old if I remember correctly. No issues with them at all. Honestly think they would of been fine with any animal. Oh.. and they loved Cats.. they would do that soft I like you hum when Nari was around.


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## Katiean (Aug 14, 2010)

I do not know about LLAMAS but had a few Ostriches. We finally ended up with our bonded group as 3 females and 1 male. We raised them from chicks and are a lot of fun. It is so funny how they can grow from about 5" tall and just a few ozs to 7' tall and 500lbs. They were about 3 years old and had produced eggs for 2 yearsand one day I came home from work and Philip (my male) had killed one of his females. I was lucky that when they layed their eggs they put them near the gate. I would go in with a 12' 2x4 and push him back so I could pick up the eggs. I did have to broadside him with it a couple of times. But, ostriches can kill an adult male. So here is a dead hen in the middle of the pasture. I went and bought a very long rope that would pull her weight and I had to go in the pen and pull the wire off leaving the top rail and then tie the rope to the hens feet to drag her out. All of this I did with a guard with that 12' 2x4. Do you know how heavy 500lbs is when it is just dead weight. After we got her out I had to go back in and repair the fence. After that he started battering one of the girls that was left and he got agressive to the kids through the fence. That was it. I had the battered hen butchered and sold him and his remaining hen. I want more ostriches but I have to have the double fences with an 8' wide walkway all the way around the pen.


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## LittleRibbie (Aug 14, 2010)

Boy oh boy...how scarey! I know zero about Llamas but Ive actually always wanted one.... but I had never heard of ABS. I see them listed on CL often...I sure hope the sellers are upfront and honest with people as Ive considered buying a couple b/c they are often only a couple hundred dollars. I would sure hate to have a newbie ( like myself ) buy one and not realize what could potentionally be dangerous. It does sound like you may have to put him down if you cant find a safe location for him...until then please be extra extra careful. Tough decision...especially after all the wonderful imprinting you did on him as a youngster.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Aug 14, 2010)

Unfortunately, yes, you will need to put him down, especially before he hurts you. We never play with our babies. At six months they are halter broken and worked with, but that's all, and never before weaning.

What has happened is that he is treating YOU as another llama. And you are a threat to him and his herd. (So HE thinks!) If you had gelded him before puberty you may have been OK, but sometimes that doesn't work either. We had a sickly cria and had to handle him a lot. He was gelded early and we never had a problem with him.

I'm sorry, I know it's not what you wanted to hear. If you can find a mentor they may be able to help.

Lucy


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## ~Dan (Aug 15, 2010)

OK, So does this particular male happen to be a gelding or an intact male?

If he were intact i could see him trying to reestablish himself as top male in the pasture since the other male died, was he the alpha male? then he would be aggressive towards the females and you (i think) If he did go thru puberty he could have berserk male syndrome at our farm we have a stud who acted as such going after people and being overly aggressive but has since calmed down quite a bit, unfortunately this is all i can think of at the very moment, I will talk to some other people for their opinions.

And on your older male, I would say with no symptoms he couldve have colciked going off feed and gotten an intestinal twist, did you have a necropsy done? this could rule out what it was especially if it was something else such as a disease or parasite that can be spread to your other llamas.

Dan


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## Miniv (Aug 15, 2010)

Thanks for all of your replies..... No, he's not gelded. And yes, he is now the only male.

I read the info about ABS and it made me very sad. I am avoiding his area and am waiting for Larry, who's been out of town most of the week.


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## chandab (Aug 15, 2010)

MA, so sorry you are having to deal with this.

I know nothing about llamas, so have never heard of ABS, and when I get the chance I'll have to warn a family friend... He has an 8 month old male cria that was a bottle baby, he was born 2 days after Christmas (in frigid MT) and they just brought him in and bottle fed him to be sure he would live. I have no idea if they plan to geld him, but sounds like it would be a good idea if they ahven't already. [When do llamas hit puberty?]


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## Miniv (Aug 15, 2010)

Chandra,

Here's a link I found to be helpful..... Our senior male llama was 15, going on 16, so he was a senior according to the info provided.

http://www.ansi.okstate.edu/breeds/other/llama/


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## ~Dan (Aug 15, 2010)

Mini V, i would deffinatley recommend gelding him before you consider putting him down as in some cases it can help to reverse the affects of his aggression, i would also wait just to see if he settles down after a few weeks as it may be a shake up in the pecking order before again you even consider putting him down as I know of several male llamas who were handled as cria (in a responsible manner and not bottle fed) and turned out perfectly fine.

Chandab, your friend should seriously consider getting her male gelded while hes still young especially if theres young children around


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## laughingllama75 (Aug 15, 2010)

I almost guarantee that gelding him wont help. Also, gelding when they are under 18 months is not recommended as that will cause a whole other set of problems with thier growth plates.....just for those of you wanting to learn about llamas.

I hope this discussion doesnt scare everone away form them.....they really are a wonderful animal that I would not be without.


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## Shari (Aug 15, 2010)

Sadly, Llama's aren't like horse's. Majority of the time if you geld a stallion, you will get a calm horse. Llama's... it doesn't work that way when they have ABS.

Seriously, gelding an Llama with ABS will make no difference and the longer he is alive, the higher the chance someone is going to get badly hurt or worse.

I would not want to see MA or her family get hurt by this Llama.

MA 16 years old .. is a good long life for a llama.


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## Miniv (Aug 16, 2010)

Domino, our llama, doesn't understand what's happening........ Larry and a male friend of ours teamed up and pushed him into a stall in the barn. This is the first time I've ever heard Domino hum.

Larry is researching some different options. One of them includes sending him down to a place in New Mexico who is studying male llamas with ABS.


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## Shari (Aug 16, 2010)

That is great someone is finally studying Llamas with ABS and is a good option.

Just be careful MA. (hugs)


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## AnnaC (Aug 16, 2010)

I know nothing about Llamas but I do know about animals in general. I think you should do the kindest thing and have this chap quietly put to sleep at home by your vet. Please do not send him all the way to New Mexico to a strange place to be trialled/experimented on by 'strange' people. What will happen to him there? Do they have really secure paddocks so at least the animals can have some freedom or will he spend the rest of his days in a small pen? Is there a chance he might get killed by another agressive Llama? I would want to know all these answers and more before I sent an animal that had once been my pet to a place like that.

Also if you have him gelded - are Llamas like horses that need the freedom to keep moving around after a gelding op? Would you be able to give him this freedom? Plus if he is likely to turn agressive unexpectedly, how are you going to be able to wash him off/give him treatment after the operation? Your safety and that of your family or other helpers/visitors must be the most important factor in all of this.

Animals do not 'foresee' death when it is about to happen - it is us humans that for some reason, cannot do what is in the animal's best interest. I am very sorry if I have upset you or offended you with this post, but I sincerely believe that the kindest and best thing that you can do for him now is, as I said, have your vet out to have him put to sleep at home, a place where he has obviously led a happy life until now.

Good luck - Anna


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## Miniv (Aug 16, 2010)

Anna,

No you haven't offended or upset me at all. I appreciate all views at this point because we love Domino. Larry and I are looking at all the options right now. At the moment he is in a safe place.


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## midnight star stables (Aug 16, 2010)

I hope the best for you and Domino. Please do keep us updated.


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## ~Dan (Aug 16, 2010)

I do not think that Domino's aggression issues are connected to ABS as it will not occur over night (if i read the first post correctly) I truly think that this is simply a shake up in the herd hierarchy I have worked with too many llamas of all shapes colors sizes and temperaments to know that this would not occur over night (ABS) but I must say I am glad you are looking into other options and that he is in good hands

Dan


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## AnnaC (Aug 17, 2010)

Thank you Maryann, my thoughts are with you and Larry - and Domino - at this difficult and unsettling time for you all. In spite of what I said, I really do hope that you can find an answer for his aggresion and that it proves to be just a temporary 'glitch'.






Anna


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## Watcheye (Aug 17, 2010)

Im rooting for you! I check back every day to see how things are going.


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## Miniv (Aug 17, 2010)

Thank you! Will let you know when something happens.........Right now he is in the barn.


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## Watcheye (Aug 24, 2010)

Wondering how things were going with your Llama?


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## Miniv (Aug 24, 2010)

Domino is scheduled to be gelded in about a week. After a rest, he's going to join a herd of older bachelor males/geldings.

We are leaving it open on whether or not he comes back to us.........But he IS staying in the area.


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## horsefeather (Aug 24, 2010)

MA, I admit I don't know very much about Llamas, but I owned 2 at one time. A female and a gelding. The female got sick and died (in 2 days. The vet says they get some kind of worm in their brain like deer do and there's nothing you can do about it). Anyway, after we took her out, he decided he liked me. Really, really liked me.



Like you, I petted this guy and he had never spit at me or pushed me around.....until 1 day I went out in the pasture and he charged me from behind. I tried to get up but he wouldn't let me. I hollored for Curt and he came running out and kept him away from me until I could escape. From then on, I had to carry a big stick whenever I went out in the pasture. I hated doing that, so I gave him away to a school teacher who wanted him. They never had any problems with him. It was just me as Curt could go out and he was fine.

Good luck and I'm so glad you've got a plan. I really hope it works!!

Pam


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