# Appy coloring



## zoey829 (Sep 6, 2009)

It seems like an app bred to an app rarely gives an appy foal. But an app bred to a bay or a black gives you an app. If I am looking to purchase a dark bay or black mare how can I look at her linage to see if she produces an app? Her foaling history is she had an app when bred to an app. But I had a bay mare and she had a bay when bred to an app. Ugh!!! What gives?? Any thoughts???


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## Magic (Sep 6, 2009)

In my experience, many times breeding a loud-colored appy mare to an appy stallion can result in a solid foal, but then again, so can breeding a solid, non-appy mare to an appaloosa stallion.




I've had my best luck getting color by breeding appaloosa-bred mares, but with minimal color, to an appy stallion. It does also depend on the stallion-- some very loud stallions rarely produce color, and others pass on loud appy genes even to foals of no-appy-breeding mares.

Appaloosa breeding is TOUGH. Conformation and movement is of utmost importance to me, but it's sure a nice bonus when I get color too.


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## Flaxenacres (Sep 6, 2009)

Zoey, Its all in the genes. Color is a funny thing. You never now exactly what color you are going to get. But it does help with more appaloosa in the lineage. There are people on here that can explaine it better than me. Lorie


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## ~Lisa~ (Sep 6, 2009)

While it can be difficult to get the color I would think your best bet would be to make sure one of the apps you are using is a snowcap or a few spot.

I know our few spot mare has always had a appy foal no matter what she was bred to


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## RobinRTrueJoy (Sep 6, 2009)

I have heard people say that a few spot appy gives you the best chances of getting an appy foal.

Robin


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## Bunnylady (Sep 6, 2009)

It seems that the appaloosa pattern is not caused by a single gene, but rather, the interplay between at least two separate genes. If a foal inherits one of those genes, but not the other, it may have some appy characteristics, but won't be spotted. Few spots and snowcaps are (usually) homozygous for at least one of those genes, so a higher percentage of their offspring have spots.

A solid colored animal that has some appaloosa in its family tree is more likely to have one of the required genes than one that has no known app behind it. Sometimes these animals will have the mottled skin, striped hooves, or visible sclera on their eyes to let you know that the gene is there, but not always.

My rabbits taught me that, if there's a particular color or pattern that you want to see from a particular cross, it's going to be the last thing that you'll get! It sounds to me like you are about par for the course.


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## yellerroseintx (Sep 6, 2009)

appys are a funny bunch ......this mare..a true blue roan..has had 8 foals.....4 of which were visible appaloosas ..she has no appy in her background whatsoever....excuse her shedding picture.. she goes thru many changes ..colorwise, almost as much fun as an app..tee hee






better picture of mare











one of her foals...now deceased










my little appy stallions grand father was the sire of the above foal..so, although my boy is low on the color gene being a varnish..I do have my fingers crossed this will produce color...who knows..


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## Alex (Sep 6, 2009)

Is is thought that few spot and snowcap appies, with about 5 spots or less, are homozygous for the appaloosa(lp) gene. I have seen many loud appaloosa stallions that werent either of the above bred to a solid mare and had a solid foal, but few spot stallions bred to solid mares and have leopard appaloosa foals. This is why appy breeders cherish their fewspots and snowcaps. Hope this helps.


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## ohmt (Sep 6, 2009)

Apps are VERY tricky! If you breed a solid colored mare to an appy stallion, there is a 50% chance of getting appy no matter what. There are so many different patterns though that you could end up with loud leopard (only if appy stallion is leopard or has leopard within 3 gen) or just sclera and striped hooves. Your best bet for getting loud appy is breeding a solid/minimally marked appy mare with a few spot. My few spot has only been bred to solids and he has given me leopards, blankets, near leopards, and varnish (some of the varnishes were born with JUST sclera but then developed mottling and varnish their yearling years). The only time he's been bred to an appy i got a gorgeous fewcap filly SO i've been pretty pleased with him.

Here are some examples of how the appy gene can be frustrating!

SOLID silver black mare-By a loud blanketed stallion and out of a silver black mare (sired by a loud leopard)






Silver bay appy filly-out of same mare as above, sired by my few spot

*sorry this is only pic i have...she has big white and brown spots all over her rump






Silver appy filly (no spots, just mottling, sclera, striped hooves)-out of chestnut varnish mare, sired by silver blk few spot






Chestnut snowflake/varnish mare-full sister to silver mare above....born solid:






gets more and more color every day!






Bay Fewcap appy filly-same dam as the last two girls...sire is MY few spot boy






Bay appaloosa (born solid-now has mottling and lots of varnish) filly-sired by my few spot, dam is a SOLID chestnut with ZERO appy breeding






Bay appy filly-FULL sister to above!











Ok and last one I promise! Here is my loud bay blanketed appy colt--out of a black PINTO MARE. Sire is my few spot






Sooo....you never know WHAT you're going to get. But you're best bet is to breed to a few spot! Even then, you may have to wait a year or two to see some color. BUT it comes


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## zoey829 (Sep 6, 2009)

Ugh! So interesting. I have a leopard app stallion that has appy breeding top and bottom. All Toyland. I want to breed him to a dark bay mare that has no app but has produced an appy foal with a different appy stallion.


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## ohmt (Sep 6, 2009)

My few spot is 100% Toyland---Toyland is great for producing loud appys because Lauri has been working on her program for years and years and she breeds loud appy to loud appy or loud appy to few spot.

If the stallion ISN'T a few spot though, theres still just a 50% chance of your mare having an appaloosa foal every time she's bred to him. Just because she's had an appy in the past doesn't mean her chances are any higher. No solid color mare would have any higher/lower chance---every one would have that 50% chance. When I breed solid mares to my few spot, I know I'm going to get appy ever time. The guessing is what pattern


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## zoey829 (Sep 6, 2009)

These apps are so interesting. When I was talking to Laurie from Toyland she said with her horses if you cant find a few spot or if you cant afford one (most likley). The best bet would be a black or a dark bay when breeding to an appaloosa stallion. That the foal is more likely to pic of the color of the loud app. But I guess the chance are 50- 50. I have seen so many pedigrees when the one parent is bay or black. Very interesting.


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## ohmt (Sep 6, 2009)

haha Laurie only breeds bay and black based horses--most of her horses are homozygous for black. I don't think she has any 'red' horses so she wouldn't really have anything to compare to. I get the same amount of color from my chestnuts as my bays/blacks. My Toyland boy is actually homozygous for black so all of my foals end up black based appy which I LOVE but thats just personal preference.

I lost a loud blanketed appy colt this year (would've ended up near leopard I think..the blanket extended pretty far up his sides)--his sire is my bay near leopard and his dam is a solid chestnut with ZERO appaloosa breeding. Would the colt have been louder if the mare was black/bay....guarantee it wouldn't have made one bit of difference. The reason why you see mostly black/bay solids in appy's pedigrees is because people prefer black appys over the red ones. My black appys sell twice as fast as my red apps do.


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## Sue_C. (Sep 6, 2009)

> appys are a funny bunch ......this mare..a true blue roan..has had 8 foals..all black based....4 of which were visible appaloosas..she has no appy in her background whatsoever


I would say from the picture of that mare, she was also appy. A simple true roan is generally roaned all over except the head and legs. Appy roans however, usually start the colour concentration from the shoulders, and across the back like hers is. Besides that...there HAS to be appy in her for her to have passed it on. appy does not "come from no-where" although it can "hide" from those who don't know where to look.

The minis have been so mistakenly colour registered that I take no stock whatsoever in not having any appy, pinto, etc...in their back grounds. That is one reason why I am surprised they can be registered as Pintos. You are not allowed any appy in the Pinto breed, and have to sign saying there is none...but really...who knows with minis, as there are so many pintaloosas bred?


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## ohmt (Sep 6, 2009)

> QUOTE appys are a funny bunch ......this mare..a true blue roan..has had 8 foals..all black based....4 of which were visible appaloosas..she has no appy in her background whatsoever
> 
> I would say from the picture of that mare, she was also appy. A simple true roan is generally roaned all over except the head and legs. Appy roans however, usually start the colour concentration from the shoulders, and across the back like hers is. Besides that...there HAS to be appy in her for her to have passed it on. appy does not "come from no-where" although it can "hide" from those who don't know where to look.
> 
> The minis have been so mistakenly colour registered that I take no stock whatsoever in not having any appy, pinto, etc...in their back grounds. That is one reason why I am surprised they can be registered as Pintos. You are not allowed any appy in the Pinto breed, and have to sign saying there is none...but really...who knows with minis, as there are so many pintaloosas bred?


Pretty sure that mare is just blue roan--i used to have a red roan mare whose roaning was just like that...3 foals that she gave me were roans that were your typical 'roan body, solid head and legs'. That mare doesn't look app to me. And below she says that the stallion she was bred to to produce that foal is app.

I agree with you though on the pedigree thing. I NEVER believe the colors people have listed in my horses pedigrees! My grandparents used to put the wrong colors down...we have 2 silver dapple mares that were listed as palomino and cremello. WHAT? They just didn't know. As for registering a pinto with appy in the background....what are they supposed to be registered as?? A pinto is a pinto is a pinto...no matter if their sire, grandsire, or etc were appy. For the Paint breed its different--Appaloosa has its color breed and registry and then the Paints have their color breed and registry. If you think about, its understandable why they wouldn't want the two intermingled. Miniature horses are not a color breed, therefore it doesn't matter.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Sep 6, 2009)

Breeding appies is a "crapshoot", you never know what you're going to get and it's all "luck of the draw" lol Yes, breeding with a snowcap or few spots increases your chance of color, however, they can still throw a "solid" foal, that eventually colors later.. Same could be true for some of the "solid" foals some of you've mentioned from appy breeding, while they may be solid at birth, they could very well color out with age, I've seen some solid apps color out quickly, some 4-5 years down the line and some well into their teens before they start developing their pattern...


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## Sue_C. (Sep 6, 2009)

> As for registering a pinto with appy in the background....what are they supposed to be registered as?? A pinto is a pinto is a pinto...no matter if their sire, grandsire, or etc were appy. For the Paint breed its different--Appaloosa has its color breed and registry and then the Paints have their color breed and registry. If you think about, its understandable why they wouldn't want the two intermingled. Miniature horses are not a color breed, therefore it doesn't matter.


What I meant is to register them with the PINTO _Association_ as a Pinto, (With a capital "P".) with appy ancesters, is not allowed. That isn't the same as having a "pinto pattern" with the AMHA or AMHR. I have seen the paperwork for the Pinto Association in the past, and appy backgrounds were always prohibited. I imagine perhaps they are not as strict with the miniatures, as the chance that it will affect the Pinto as a "breed" is nil.


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## Katiean (Sep 6, 2009)

Lucky-C-Acres-Minis said:


> Breeding appies is a "crapshoot", you never know what you're going to get and it's all "luck of the draw" lol Yes, breeding with a snowcap or few spots increases your chance of color, however, they can still throw a "solid" foal, that eventually colors later.. Same could be true for some of the "solid" foals some of you've mentioned from appy breeding, while they may be solid at birth, they could very well color out with age, I've seen some solid apps color out quickly, some 4-5 years down the line and some well into their teens before they start developing their pattern...


Just what I was going to say. I have a silver dapple mare with tons of mottling, the eyes, striped hooves...etc. The only white she has is lacing on her back (and yes,it is only lacing). She was bred to a silver bay blanketed stud. The resulting foal had no visible mottling but did have striped hooves. Well when he went pee I saw his mottling. He is now 2 and has white hair all over his body like he is graying. It is also on his face so I would not say it is roaning. Oh and he now has a white spot about the size of a dime on the front of his rear leg just above the hock. I think he has a foal due with my snowcap appy mare so we will see if he throws color.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Sep 6, 2009)

Here's an example that was born here..

His sire is a black near leopard splash appaloosa:






His dam is a black tobiano/splash pinto:






At birth he was jet black, no appy characteristics:






By weaning (5 months) he was developing frosting on his hips:






As an early yearling:






And taken today as a late yearling:











What's even more interesting is this is his full sister from this year, no appy characteristics, yet at least and really hoping she doesn't!


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 7, 2009)

The only real way of increasing the chance of a patterned foal is to use a Fewspot or Snowcap stallion(preferably).

Even then, as with any H/Z animal, even using a leopard patterned mare, you can get minimal characteristics only.

Leopard X Leopard gives you a 50/50 chance of a patterned foal, so does Leopard X Solid.

If you get a solid foal as a result of two patterned parents you are just unlucky, if you get quite a few patterned foals as a result of a Patterned X Solid mating, you are just lucky.

Look at it this way, a stallion has a potential 1,000 foals in his lifetime ( I know it's more but that is a nice round figure!) So, 500 of these foals will be patterned, 500 will be solid.

IF the first 500 are solid, everyone throws up their hands and says the horse never throws pattern!

It is merely the luck of the draw!

And, of course, statistics rarely happen that way, but there is a horse on ECF at the moment that just that has happened with, he is not H/Z but has yet, coincidentally, to throw an unpatterned foal.


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## yellerroseintx (Sep 7, 2009)

rabbitsfizz said:


> The only real way of increasing the chance of a patterned foal is to use a Fewspot or Snowcap stallion(preferably).Even then, as with any H/Z animal, even using a leopard patterned mare, you can get minimal characteristics only.
> 
> Leopard X Leopard gives you a 50/50 chance of a patterned foal, so does Leopard X Solid.
> 
> ...




you are soooo right..I know someone who sold her appy stallion because he just never threw any color....well...first foal out of him with the new owner was a loud leopard!!!!!


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## ohmt (Sep 7, 2009)

> Just what I was going to say. I have a silver dapple mare with tons of mottling, the eyes, striped hooves...etc. The only white she has is lacing on her back (and yes,it is only lacing). She was bred to a silver bay blanketed stud. The resulting foal had no visible mottling but did have striped hooves. Well when he went pee I saw his mottling. He is now 2 and has white hair all over his body like he is graying. It is also on his face so I would not say it is roaning. Oh and he now has a white spot about the size of a dime on the front of his rear leg just above the hock. I think he has a foal due with my snowcap appy mare so we will see if he throws color.


First of all, you can't use the striped hooves as an indicator of appy when the horse is also silver--don't know if the stallion you are talking about is, i'm just guessing since both sire and dam have silver. Many silvers have striped hooves so thats why you have to throw that out. Would love to see a pic of the mare and stallion with the just the characteristics if you have any and would be willing to share! p.s.--If the mare you have in foal to said stallion is a true snowcap, the foal should be appy no matter what (even if it doesn't develop characteristics til later). If the stallion passes along any appy genes then the foal will be snowcap/few spot which means it obtained an appy gene from both sire and dam. If not either of those, then just the dam will be the one to have contributed any color


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## Katiean (Sep 7, 2009)

ohmt, I don't have any pictures asI am in the process of switching out computers. I am supposed to take pictures today for one of the other horses perm papers. I will try To get pics of all mares that have been "involved" with my stud. I am hopefully getting all 3 checked by ultrasound to see if they are in fact pregers. I hope they aren't but it is my own stupid fault if they are. I left them all with him until April of this year. If I can get the pics to download on this computer I will post them.


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## ohmt (Sep 7, 2009)

> ohmt, I don't have any pictures asI am in the process of switching out computers. I am supposed to take pictures today for one of the other horses perm papers. I will try To get pics of all mares that have been "involved" with my stud. I am hopefully getting all 3 checked by ultrasound to see if they are in fact pregers. I hope they aren't but it is my own stupid fault if they are. I left them all with him until April of this year. If I can get the pics to download on this computer I will post them.


Isn't switching computers such a pain?! I've had to switch 3 times this past year...incredibly frustrating. Definitely get those girls ultrasounded! You never know what happens when you're not looking



My grandma always loves to tell the story of a mare she bought once to people who ask if they can leave their mares in with their stallion over winter and not have then end up pregs. We do live in ND so 9 times out of 10 its ok BUT....

She bought a mare from a guy who only had 2 minis (stallion and the mare) that he had as pets. My grandma LOVED the mare-took her home in August. no problems. THEN, January comes along (everyone who lives in ND knows that January and February are always the coldest months of the year...down to 60 below sometimes. mmm mmm can't wait for winter!) and my grandma goes out one morning and WHOA! BABY!!!

I believe she named that filly "Ono" LOL


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## Tony (Sep 10, 2009)

I have found that roans are excellent in breeding apps. I went several years with only patterned foals from roan mares bred to our colored stallions before I had a solid. Then it turned colored over the next five years. I use mostly mares that I have bred the last few years and here are some examples for you to study.

Here are some of our results this year:

Little America's Orion All Over bred to Little America's Tex Husseler gets Little America's Hussel Over.




X



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Same stallion bred to Little America's Miss Loud N Tuff gets Little America's Over Loud.




X



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Same stallion bred to Hunt House Farm's Ruby Feather gets Little America's Orion Spotacular.




X



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Little America's Kickapoo Joy Boy bred to Little America's Tex Belle gets Little America's Kickin' Crazy Horse.




X



=


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## Tony (Sep 10, 2009)

Continued:

Little America's Kickapoo Joy Boy bred to Little America's LNC Katrina gets Little America's Kickin' Monticello.




X



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Some have mentioned that LOUD to LOUD doesn't work. That's not necessarily so in all instances. Here is Little America's Sterling Storm bred to Little America's Tex Hallelujah to get Little America's S S Katchina Doll, one of my all time favorites.




X



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Sorry this is so long, but hope it helps show some app breeding. You can see more on our site if you are interested.


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## HGFarm (Sep 10, 2009)

I'm with Tony..... the roan mares we've had over the years, both full sized and Minis, in my opinion, have been very strong color producers, producing all types of patterns. With the full sized ones, our minimal roan mare had a snowcap foal just about every time she was bred, no matter what pattern the stallion was. She had no color when we bought her- just characteristics, and then just got some roaning through her rear and flanks.

My one roan Mini mare, who was also born solid, as most roan Appies are, has produced nothing but Appies for me- with a variety of patterns. Some were roans, one had spots over his rear, one a leopard, and she's had two snowcaps now.

I do have a mare that had only characteristics when I got her, and now has light roaning throughout her body. Her first two foals were by a few spot. The first was colored, the second only had characteristics. Her three foals by my leopard have been solid with no characteristics. However, that same stallion, with my other mares (one with less roaning than even she has) were at least born with characteristics, and were coloring more with time. I have also gotten a couple of few spots from him.

It is totally a 'crapshoot' but that's what makes it fun, LOL. However, I can tell you that every time you breed to a non Appaloosa, you are diluting the gene pool and your chance of color even more. Unfortunately you can't see which horse carries a 'stronger gene' or whatever amoung the Appies, to produce what you want, so it's all a big fat experiment.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures (Sep 11, 2009)

Here are my 2009 Foals:

Snoflake/roan appy mare x fewspot stallion






Foal Crayonbox Color The Wind, a near leopard appy






Tobiano/sabino pinto mare x fewspot stallion






Foal Crayonbox Color Made, a leopard appy






Here is pics of the sire of both fillies CCMF Legacy's Color Maker


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## Manyspots (Sep 11, 2009)

this has been a fun thread to read! Looks like I should take some pics and post too!


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## Darkstar (Sep 12, 2009)

Hey Zoey. Your frustration is completely understood by anyone that has tried to breed for the appaloosa pattern! I think this is why so many people get out trying to breed appaloosas. It's hard enough to try and breed good horses and if you throw loud colored horses into the mix ARG!!! LOL My best advise to you if you want appaloosa patterns is to forget about appaloosa patterns and breed the best horse that you can. The easiest thing you can change on a horse is it's color! Most people think that to create loud patterned horses you need loud patterned horses. I have found this is simply not true. I have gotten the loudest color out of mares that just have appaloosa roaning and appaloosa characteristics. This supports the appaloosa projects theory that there are certain modifier genes that allow or promote the appaloosa pattern. Don't look at what's on the outside of a horse as much as what's on the inside of a horse. This applies to both color and conformation. The problem with breeding for appaloosa patterned horses is that they do not breed true. Leopards snowcaps/fewspots/fewcaps yadda yadda yadda.... they still do not guarantee you loud offspring but they are very valuable in "proving" a good appaloosa breeding program. That is if you are putting conformation ahead of color! Forgive me but I'm starting to ramble.

Join the appaloosa project or IMAPC if you want to learn more about breeding appaloosas. You'll find lots of people with a wealth of knowledge about appaloosas.


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## zoey829 (Sep 12, 2009)

I do belong to the Appaloosa Project VERY interesting and the people are awesome. So true that confirmation and health is above all. I am just curious to see what does what????


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## Marsha Cassada (Sep 12, 2009)

I recently got a 2 year old appaloosa. His dam is a bay and his sire is a leopard appaloosa. His dam had an appaloosa colt the year before, sired by a different appaloosa stallion. When Dusty was born, he was all brown with a tiny white spot under his tail. When he shed out this year, he is quite spotted. I'm looking forward to seeing what he looks like next year.


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