# Gay marriage - taking a step away from progress



## ozymandias (May 13, 2012)

This topic is going to be controversial so I suggest not reading if your big girl or boy panties aren't on.

I'm just disgusted. Makes me wonder what year we're living in. Certainly doesn't feel like 2012.

I was chilling out today watching the news. There was coverage of Obama's recent endorsement of gay marriage and how church groups who voted for him before are now saying because of this that he's going to be loosing their backing. Romney is openly against it because of his religion and hasn't hidden that fact. He uses the excuse that it's protecting the family. what - so gay people don't have loving, strong, healthy, good, honest families too?! (side note - the highest divorce rate in America is in the bible belt - the lowest is Atheists - can't give the gay %'s because they're being denied this right).

Leave people alone !!! Gee all they want to do is have the same basic rights that we male/female married couples enjoy. Love is love! You can't tell me a man/woman relationship is any different than a same sex relationship when it comes to love. This is as basic and backwards as not letting black people ride the same bus, or give up their seat to a white person in the American 50's. I can't imagine not being allowed to get healthcare or visit a loved one in hospital because people wouldn't allow it!

I'm not gay. I do't even know any gay folks except cyber ones but I 100% support their right and will fight for them and vote accordingly.

Off my soapbox, flame away, big girl panties being worn lol


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## Ashley (May 13, 2012)

The reality is, everybody can talk all they want, until somebody takes a stand or those who say they will follow through it will always be the same as it is now.


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## lil hoofbeats (May 13, 2012)

Well Susie you know me, i am NEVER one to be controversial, however i do have an opinion, and it is as such*:*

When churches get involved in political issues then they should _*start paying taxes*_! That simple.

The constitution clearly states there be a separation of church and state.

I think the last time religion played a part in state affairs, we burned witches at the stake!

We Christians were a whole lot cooler when we were just worried about being left alone and not getting eaten by lions!

But Susie! hey....dont forget, we can still marry our first cousins in NC!!!!....just not our gay ones!LOL!!!!


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## Nathan Luszcz (May 14, 2012)

The members of the church pay taxes (most of them). So if the leadership says something, the masses will go along with it. Some churches say jump, and every single member nation-wide in one voice asks "how high?"


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## lil hoofbeats (May 14, 2012)

Members pay taxes, i know i sure pay mine, but the churches which are "big business" are tax exempt. but they still try to tell the members how to vote.

Throughout history religion has been used to control the masses and try to keep people from free thinking.

I have always felt if you use "faith, and "morals" to hurt people, then you have no "faith" and "morals" to prove.

The God i pray to does not discriminate against any of us.


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## ozymandias (May 14, 2012)

lil hoofbeats, I don't know what it is but you have me in hysterics almost every time you post lol I always appreciate your sense of humor. What you said is also so true. I think it shows very clearly that Romney will NOT separate church from State if elected. If he's doing it now, we can't go crying foul when he's still doing it later.

Nathan, I wonder how long it's going to take them to realize that _only sheep need shepherds!_ If something's not right - it's not right. How can you preach love and acceptance and then call an entire segment of the population sinners simply based on their lifestyle? I guess that has to be a rhetorical question as I know why - it's in the bible. If this were some neo-Nazi group spouting this all merry heck would hit the fan but because it's hatred under the name of religion it becomes a political issue people are proud to stand behind.

Sometimes makes me wonder just how much progress we've made in the last few hundred years. Sure doesn't feel like much when one group takes away the rights of another group like this based on their faith.


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## ozymandias (May 14, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I sometimes feel Americans go way extreme (on both sides) on political issues.. All U.S. has to do is look NORTH and see how the happy people live in Canada.. that terrible socialist country with free health care for all it's citizens, no hand guns and YES, they accept same sex marriage.. <<< It is a non issue for all of the above..


ML - I 100% agree with you! As someone who has lived in Europe and traveled extensively outside of the U.S. I'm really concerned at just how backwards we're becoming as a society. We're not making any forward progress and what little we do make is being squelched by the countries overwhelming Christian majority. I hate to always blame religion but it has a lot to do with our progress. Jeez, only 39% of Americans believe in evolution what !!!! The rest of the world is laughing at us. Our education system here SUCKS. When we came here from GB my younger bro was 15 - he got to sit around for a few years before college not doing anything because educationally he'd completed high school already. I had people walk up to me and ask where I was from, when I said England, they asked if that was in France



...seriously! I have good friends here who are convinced the earth is 7000 years old and when you try to have an intelligent conversation with than about it they stick their heads in the sand and cry "not true, not true, not true". 3 years ago an awesome movie about Darwin (Creation) was released worldwide....it wasn't shown in one US cinema because no distributors would pick it up for fear of offending the majority of cinema goers. Don't get me wrong - I'll defend anyone's right to worship the god/religion of their choice because in doing so it also allows me the right not to but pleeeeaze people - keep it out of politics and advancement. We're denying gay rights based on it, stem cell research based on it, the list goes on...and sadly on.

How can we progress as a society when we're living n the dark ages. I love America but I don't love what we as a people are currently doing to her. Yes, we have a lot to learn from our educated, peaceful, modern neighbors to the north.

And please don't get me started on the hand gun issue....


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## drmatthewtaylor (May 14, 2012)

Respectfully, I disagree.

First of all, marriage licenses are provided through the State government. So, although President Obama's position is interesting, it really carries no more weight than the Mayor of Detroit saying we should invade Iran. It is news worthy, but nothing has changed.

Leave people alone !!! Gee all they want to do is have the same basic rights that we male/female married couples enjoy.

Gays and lesbians have the same rights as heterosexuals, what they are asking for is a 'new' right. The right to marry anyone they want. If I was a polygamist and wanted to marry 3 wives that I loved and all loved me, am I asking for 'the same basic right' as all other people or am I asking for a 'new' right?

Love is love! You can't tell me a man/woman relationship is any different than a same sex relationship when it comes to love.

I agree, but love isn't marriage. Marriage is more than just love. Should marriage be allowed between an adult and a child simply because they love? Should marriage be allowed between siblings because they love?

This is as basic and backwards as not letting black people ride the same bus, or give up their seat to a white person in the American 50's.

In those cases blacks were denied the exact same right reserved for whites. I do not agree that the same argument can be extrapolated here.

I can't imagine not being allowed to get healthcare or visit a loved one in hospital because people wouldn't allow it!

As someone who pays for 100% of their own healthcare, I never understand why people think someone else paying for their healthcare should be a 'right'?

Anyway, except for government jobs, you are free to find an employer who provides healthcare for your same sex partner. As for the Hospital, they are a private institution and can allow what ever they want. It is my understanding that if paperwork is done a Hospital will allow same sex visitation.

Dr Taylor


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## MountainWoman (May 14, 2012)

I live in Vermont so that about sums it up for me. Lil Hoofbeats, interesting thought.


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## ozymandias (May 14, 2012)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> Respectfully, I disagree.


Respectfully disagree back at ya lol.

They are being denied the same rights as heterosexual couples, because they're being denied marriage rights, along with that (depending on the state you're in) comes all kinds of other issues like inheritance laws etc.

I pay 100% of my own healthcare too. Well over $24,000 a year for a family of 4 and there's no problems for me getting a spouse included because we're legally married. There are gay couples that have been together for more years my hubby and I have (24 by the way) that can't get family care because they're not able to marry. Their children are denied coverage too because of the marriage situation of the parents when the child "belongs" to the partner not getting the existing coverage.

Why do you believe people of different ethnic backgrounds deserve the same rights as each other based on skin color but people of different sexual orientation do not deserve those same rights? You can't discriminate over sexual orientation when renting them an apartment or advertising a house for sale?

As for the marriage comments - don't be silly of course marriage is more than love lol! We're talking about two unrelated, consenting adults who's only difference between most marriages is that they are of the same sex. I know you're not seriously trying to compare two consenting adults with a pedophile relationship right? I just don't buy the pedophile or incest comparison.

Can I ask you a question? Are you in support of or against gay marriage? Sometimes knowing people stance explains their opinions





What I don't understand when it comes to people being against gay marriage because their religion says it's a sin. The same bible tell us that slavery is okay -but we don't believe that (hopefully) It says rape is okay but we don't believe that (hopefully) Incest, genocide is okay etc.


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## tagalong (May 14, 2012)

> I agree, but love isn't marriage. Marriage is more than just love. Should marriage be allowed between an adult and a child simply because they love? Should marriage be allowed between siblings because they love?


This gets into the specious arguments against gay marriage like - _well then, if a man loves his pet goat, should he be allowed to marry it?_ - and similar nonsense. If a civil union can be granted for a gay couple - and not to a guy and a goat or an adult and a child or a brother and sister... why can they also not marry? Hey, in NC you can marry your first cousin (unless they are gay) ... as *lil hoofbeats* pointed out!

The next argument is usually the Biblical one. We ignore a lot of what the Bible tells us to do - and yet some insist that we must honour one small passage in Leviticus while discounting all the rest... very selective reading and interpretation, if you ask me.

If it does not affect straight people personally if a gay couple wants to wed - _and trust me, the world will not end if they do_ - then why does it matter?

I applaud the states who have allowed gay marriage.... Connecticutt, Iowa, Massachusetts, New Hampshire, New York and Vermont. Plus Washington, D.C. Maryland and Washington have also endorsed same sex marriage but it has yet to come into effect.

Dr. Taylor - I am not going to get into the healthcare debate here - as this should remain a thread about same sex marriage - but I have lived under both systems - or the lack of one here. I can tell you that most of the tales that are told here about the Canadian system by the anti-healthcare side are wrong - sure, it has its flaws and long waits at times - but the same things happen here. I do have as much health insurance as I can afford here - I pay for it myself - and yet it is not enough and thanks to medical bills I no longer have any savings etc. I am not keen on people lecturing me about healthcare and telling me how perfect the system is here.... and I am not the only one who is in this situation. But no matter - back on topic.

In an emergency - is there time to fill out "paperwork" that must be approved in order to be permitted to be with a loved one??


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## MountainWoman (May 14, 2012)

On the topic of health care for a brief moment, Vermont is instituting a single payer system and health care will be available to all. Back to equal rights for all.


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## Riverrose28 (May 14, 2012)

I guess I'll chime in, I live in Maryland, we voted to allow same sex unions! I think if this subject was taken on at the Federal level the states would follow. Right now non-married gay couples can not file taxes jointly, and if they adopt children, both parents should be listed as parents or if one passes the kids will suffer becuase they won't be eligable for benefits. This list goes on and on. As far as health care, in my state if you are in the maternity ward, all a visitor has to do is sign in and visit a patient, but in order to cut back on infections, if you have had surgery you are only allowed two visitors and they must be imediate family. They must sign in when you arrive and are given a card, so they only can visit. The last time I had surgery only my spouse and one daughter could visit, the other kids were left out in the cold.


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## Jill (May 14, 2012)

I can't say whether or not Dr. Taylor and I _feel_ the same... if I had a magic wand, I would make it okay for all committed couples to marry. That said, though. Read each point he's made. He is RIGHT ON. He is correct, every word he wrote. Absolutely true. Cannot fault the logic or the facts there. No matter if you like it or not, he's got it all right in his post. Point for point, 100% correct.

What I think is that Obama's announcement is purely political. He's raking in some big bucks on the heels of the announcement and his campaign is selling shirts that say "My two dads support Obama", "LGBT's for Obama",, ETC., but I imagine "I"m straight and support Mitt Romney" would be seen as hateful... Really, another way to DIVIDE our people. Class warfare, race warfare, political warfare, religious warfare, and now this. Making our differences feel like they matter more and more all the time, and that's not good. Never have known of a more divisive president, and I think there's a good chance his so called "evolution of opinion" will cost him some swing states.

Even if I were gay, I cannot imagine that marriage issues would out rank the economy and national security when it comes to political concerns I hold dear. If we're week in those two big areas, and we ARE, lots of other things may not matter. None of our international enemies tolerate openly gay people, let alone their marriage "rights". Food for thought.

Bottom line politically -- "It's still the economy, stupid" and I think we're seeing lots of smoke and mirrors. Distractions, nothing else / nothing more.


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## Nathan Luszcz (May 14, 2012)

If you were gay and couldn't do half the things you take for granted with your husband, you'd think that gay rights were a little more of a priority than you do now. If I were trying to get married to a man that I loved, and had a job, the economy wouldn't take priority. If I didn't have a job, economic issues would take priority in my world. But just because something isn't the TOP priority doesn't mean it isn't dang important to you.

As far as paperwork in a hospital, if the patient is unconscious, they can't exactly declare who they want to visit, can they? Or if they are on their deathbed and may never wake up, say, in the case of an auto accident? But I guess since they are both the same sex, there is no reason why the other partner would need any visitation to say their goodbyes, right?


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## Miniv (May 14, 2012)

Each church has a right to conduct a marriage service that they feel is appropriate. (We had to jump through hoops because we were brought up in two different Christian churches!) It has nothing to do with a civil union.

Personally, if two people, no matter what sex they are, should have a right to a civil union. It honors their relationship and protects them legally in the future. Churches don't need to be involved, but unfortunately state governments do.......

Frankly, since this is legally a state by state decision, what Obama or the GOP candidate personally feels is irrelivent. Not quite sure what all the hoopla is about with the media because of this.

And if I were a homosexual and wanted to honor a union to another, right now I'd go to a state that allows it......


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## Jill (May 14, 2012)

Nathan, I didn't say anything I didn't mean or haven't thought long and hard about. I think National security and the economy would still be at the top of my list of political concerns even if I were gay.

For whatever it's worth, remember I am one of those Republicans who not only doesn't oppose gay marriage, I support it and am outspoken about that feeling. It's just not getting top billing on my list of political concerns, and probably never will.


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## Miniv (May 14, 2012)

PS: Just want to add fuel to the fire...hahaha.....

I don't think it's up to we humans to judge......When two people intend to spend a life together and it's not hurting anyone else, I don't understand what the big deal is. I'm sorry if this offends people because of what the Bible says......But READ the Bible. I for one am not willing to "cast the first stone".....and I have plenty of logs in my eyes and don't think I can see well enough to go digging in someone else's.


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## minimomNC (May 14, 2012)

Since there are marriage laws in each state, it would be hard for an adult to marry a child. All but one state has the minimum age to marry as 18 unless you have signed permission from the parents, in most cases both parents, in some cases the parents have to be in attendance to obtain the licence. There are even strickter laws for marriage under the age of 16. So its not like you as an adult can tell a 12 year old you love them and get married. There are laws already to cover that.

So why can't the law read, legal union between two consenting adults. That would stop someone from marrying their dog, cat, horse or donkey.

Next is the hospital issues, if gay marriage were allowed, that would be covered. But if you know as a gay couple that you can't be married, I would have a legal paper drawn up tomorrow as to your wishes in the case of anything happening. Don't wait for it to happen and wish you had done something, do it now. Be proactive until the laws are changed.

As for my opinion, I think if two consenting adults want to spend their life together, its no ones business but theirs. Everyone deserves that no matter who you are.


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## liltnt (May 14, 2012)

personally I dont think Obama is for gay marriage rights... He has been in office for four years and hasnt said or done anything to support his NOW views.. He blowing smoke... for the gay vote...


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## sfmini (May 14, 2012)

Thing about gay marriage, you have to go to the states that allow it, and stay there and don't leave because other states do not recognize your marriage.

That happened to friends of mine, one had a massive stroke, the other was run off by the estranged parents who closely guarded her and wouldn't let her partner make any kinds of decisions. They ended up losing their home, all of their money, business, everything thanks to these "protective" parents while the one partner was incapacitated. Yes, they failed to do the paperwork to protect themselves. Live and learn eh? I think that they should be allowed to have a legal option equal to marriage, be it some other name if marriage twists people too much, but give them the option, and it needs to be recognized nationally just as marriage is.

As for the rest, not going there as my opinion is sure to be very unpopular with this crowd.


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## ohmt (May 14, 2012)

I usually don't post these things, but i thought it was wonderful.







ETA: i know, i know-it's not just conservatives that this should be addressed to. It should have been addressed to ALL fb friends, but it's from a liberal biased fb group. The message is good though-just don't look at the rest


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## lil hoofbeats (May 14, 2012)

> I usually don't post these things, but i thought it was wonderful.


I think so too!!!!!!!!

And then i would also ask or legislators, , "how much of my tax payer money is going to attempt to fight gay marriage?" And i would also like to ask why as tax paying American citizens, they (gay people) are not entitled to equal rights and protections under the constitution and local, state, and federal laws.

Dr. Taylor, Its not about marrying children, or animals, they are not competent enough to make a legal consent.. Its about 2 adults of legal age wanting to marry. .


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## lil hoofbeats (May 14, 2012)

> Hey, in NC you can marry your first cousin (unless they are gay) ... as *lil hoofbeats* pointed out!


Yep thats us in NC!!!!! Promoting the hatred of love....one law at a time!!!! We hate more by 9 am then most states do all day! I guess we showed Alabama and Mississippi who's boss!


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## Jill (May 15, 2012)

Realize, not all conservatives oppose gay marriage... I actually know a lot of conservatives who feel as I do on this issue.


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## Nathan Luszcz (May 15, 2012)

Miniv said:


> And if I were a homosexual and wanted to honor a union to another, right now I'd go to a state that allows it......


1) Marriage doesn't have to be done by a church, it can be done by a JOP.

2) If you went to a state that allows it, all you'd have is a piece of paper. You would have none of the rights or legal protections in your home state. You'd have to move permanently to the state that allowed it.


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## Jill (May 15, 2012)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> 1) Marriage doesn't have to be done by a church, it can be done by a JOP.
> 
> 2) If you went to a state that allows it, all you'd have is a piece of paper. You would have none of the rights or legal protections in your home state. You'd have to move permanently to the state that allowed it.


1) That's how I was married... in my jeans and riding boots,

2) I thought MA meant she'd go there, and live there but could be wrong.


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## drmatthewtaylor (May 15, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> I think so too!!!!!!!!
> 
> And then i would also ask or legislators, , "how much of my tax payer money is going to attempt to fight gay marriage?" And i would also like to ask why as tax paying American citizens, they (gay people) are not entitled to equal rights and protections under the constitution and local, state, and federal laws.
> 
> Dr. Taylor, Its not about marrying children, or animals, they are not competent enough to make a legal consent.. Its about 2 adults of legal age wanting to marry. .


I agree the bestiality argument is pretty poor, I never made it.

It is apparent you believe there should be some restrictions to marriage. What I wonder is why don't the following arguments apply for polygamists, parents/children (of legal age), or siblings?

Leave people alone !!!

Gee all they want to do is have the same basic rights that we male/female married couples enjoy.

Love is love!

You can't tell me a man/woman relationship is any different than any sex relationship when it comes to love.

Dr Taylor


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## ozymandias (May 15, 2012)

Miniv said:


> And if I were a homosexual and wanted to honor a union to another, right now I'd go to a state that allows it......


and keep your fingers crossed the voters of that state don't overturn the ruling



Can you opposite sex married couples imagine that you're married to your spouse in the state you live but if you take a vacation somewhere else you may not be...what if you got into an accident in that state. You get overwhelmed with the possibilities of things that could go wrong...not to mention it's just silly.

Taylor said it's nothing like the black/white issues of the 50's but I don't see it as being any different at all. Normal everyday rights allowed to one group are being denied to another. They're not asking for anything special - just the same right to marry as we all enjoy because in the USA marriage is a designation that comes with other benefits that many of us don't think twice about. What's worse is...can't you actually imagine the nationwide uproar if we allowed whites to marry and not blacks !!! I'd love to know how there is any difference whatsoever between that minority group and the gay minority group. How can we be offended by the idea of not letting blacks marry but not be equally offended when it comes to gays?

(oh yeah, because it says its a sin in the bible...nuf said about that one lol)


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## MountainWoman (May 15, 2012)

On the topic of states having different laws, Vermont had a horrible child custody state where one partner moved out of state where gay marriage wasn't recognized and the other stayed here. Took years of legal battles and was truly a mess for all involved.


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## tagalong (May 15, 2012)

> Really, another way to DIVIDE our people.








How so, *Jill*? Everyone knew what his stance was all along as it supposedly "evolved" and it would have been politically smarter NOT to have said anything. I also do not think that it is all "smoke & mirrors" - it was going to happen at some point. Other issues demand far more "smoke & mirrors" than this. This is pretty black & white - or straight & gay, if you prefer. How does Obama saying that divide anyone? The division on that topic was already there amd will always be there. The fact that you are in favour of gay marriage divides you from a lot of/most conservatives - is that damaging in any way? No.

The divide between left & right, liberal & conservative, Democrat & Republican will always exist no matter who says what... and sayng it was all just "going for the gay vote" is not much of a plan if GLBTs are only about 10% of the population. Those undecided voters who were annoyed by that gay marriage opinion and have turned away because of it would likely cancel a lot of that out...


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## lil hoofbeats (May 15, 2012)

> It is apparent you believe there should be some restrictions to marriage.


Not really, i pretty much try to stay out of others personal lives as much as possible, As long as some one in the partnership is not being hurt.... i am ok with it. I have always been a live and let live kinda gal; Two consenting adults can do as they wish. Does not mean i agree with it, just means i am not going to stick my nose in it.


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## Riverrose28 (May 15, 2012)

Well now I hear today the Mr. Mitt Romney wants a constitutional amendment to state that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Do I hear I another nail in the coffin?


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## Miniv (May 15, 2012)

If civil unions, done by a JP are only recognized in that state, does that mean that every couple (gay or not!) who's been married by a JP isn't recognized as married if they move?


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## ozymandias (May 15, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> Well now I hear today the Mr. Mitt Romney wants a constitutional amendment to state that marriage should be between a man and a woman. Do I hear I another nail in the coffin?


Been pretty busy today and haven't had the TV or radio on. Can't tell you how mad that makes me. I've been a republican my entire voting life and I will NOT be casting a vote for this man, in fact I'm seriously thinking about voting Obama to help make sure Romney doesn't get in. If the President of the United States has no regard for the principles we were founded on what hope do we have. I don't expect this man to keep his cult/religion out of his politics for one second. Sure wish RP stood a fraction of a chance. He may be a religious man but at least he knows when to separate it. Next thing we'll find is he will want science books banned from public schools for printing heresy.


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## ozymandias (May 15, 2012)

Miniv said:


> If civil unions, done by a JP are only recognized in that state, does that mean that every couple (gay or not!) who's been married by a JP isn't recognized as married if they move?


I would imagine most hetero people are getting married by the JP not just entering a civil union. Weddings and civil unions are performed but most folks I know of opted for the wedding



Marriages done at a courthouse are recognized the world over.


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## sfmini (May 15, 2012)

Only Hetero marriages are recognized world wide. Gay marriages are only recognized in the states where they are legal.


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## tagalong (May 15, 2012)

> Only Hetero marriages are recognized world wide.


Argentina, Belgium, Canada, Iceland, the Netherlands, Norway, Portugal, Spain, South Africa, and Sweden support and recognize same sex marriages. The links go to Wikipedia but the facts can also be double-checked from there.

Other countries recognize same sex marriage performed elsewhere as legit.

More countries are in the process of doing one or both of the above...


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## ohmt (May 15, 2012)

Over 1500 animal species practice homosexual behavior, including whales, dolphins, lions, monkeys, most herding animals. The only species that discriminates against that behavior? Humans. Sad, isn't it?


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## Nathan Luszcz (May 15, 2012)

Miniv said:


> If civil unions, done by a JP are only recognized in that state, does that mean that every couple (gay or not!) who's been married by a JP isn't recognized as married if they move?


Only if the other state doesn't recognize the union for what it is. So "normal" m/f marriage, all states recognize. Gay marriage, only a few do. So if you have a license in a state that allows it, then move to one that doesn't recognize the paper, no, you aren't married there in that state's laws.


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## jyuukai (May 16, 2012)

Ohh goody, a subject that is near and dear to my heart. In case you haven't noticed through my references to my wife I am, indeed, a card-carrying lesbian.

I must say that I am surprised that the attitudes on this forum regarding this subject are as positive as they are. Some of the political posts I see make me cringe, I find myself often saying "I bet that person is a heterosexist pig who would be glad to see me hang for my 'crimes'" I am happy to say, for the most part, that I have been proven wrong!

Nathan up here is correct on the recognition of gay marriage. I live in NC, a pig southern state if I ever knew one (sorry to other NCers) and clearly I cannot be married here. So let's say I go up to DC, a day trip, and obtain a marriage license there. I am now married in DC, and I am now married in any of the small handful of states that recognize gay marriage. Please note that a state may recognize gay marriage without having to hand out a same-sex license themselves, but really once you recognize it you have seen the light and will legalize it in your state anyhow.

So I come back down to pig-headed NC, good ole' south, but I am not married here. My wife cannot be on my work's insurance, and I cannot be on hers. Our child is mine and mine only in the state, she has no rights to it, if something happens to me she has no say in it, we cannot file taxes together, and only because we are actively trying to be pains in the butt can we declare that we are married on the census.

I am lucky enough to have parents and future in-laws who are very supportive of the love that my wife and I have, and supportive of our plans to start trying to expand our family. Even my father, who is strongly republican and used to be very anti-gay has found the heart to support and love me regardless. And my wife's family? Well her mother was upset at first but really, she loves me, and so she got over it quickly <3 Her father has always accepted me as well.

Anyhow I had more to type but I'm sure it's not really necessary. I would like to just say this : Gays, for the most part, are just normal people. We don't all go out and party and have crazy orgies while wearing tons of laytex or leather or something creepy like that. We aren't all rich and fashionable, not all the lesbians dress like men, and not all the gays are interior designers. I think that if more people could face this and understand it we would all be better off. An LGBT person should not be defined by their sexuality any more than a heterosexual should.


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

ohmt said:


> Over 1500 animal species practice homosexual behavior, including whales, dolphins, lions, monkeys, most herding animals. The only species that discriminates against that behavior? Humans. Sad, isn't it?


Animals have no biblical basis for discrimination. Not all humans discriminate. The Netherlands was the first place to legalize nationwide marriage for gay couples including all the rights marriage comes with...there are more atheist and agnostics there than anywhere else in the world so they're not being taught to discriminate. As a note of interest they also have one of the worlds leading education systems and a very high standard of living and are ranked amongst the worlds most peace loving countries.


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## ohmt (May 16, 2012)

I know Ozy




Just to a brat though, agnostic is very different from atheist. I am agnostic, but i still believe in God, just not the book that was written by people, not God, that so many use to put hate in their lives. I do not appreciate when i tell people i'm agnostic and they automatically group me with atheists or call me a "lazy atheist". I know, a whole different subject here! But, since so many seem to not know what agnostic means, thought i'd chime in. I still go to church and my pastor (who knows i'm agnostic) still comes over for dinner.

I think a few socialist countries lead the world in education and standard of living if i'm not mistaken. And here people wanted education completely privatized!

Ok, off my tangent soapbox


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## lil hoofbeats (May 16, 2012)

> The Netherlands was the first place to legalize nationwide marriage for gay couples including all the rights marriage comes with...there are more atheist and agnostics there than anywhere else in the world so they're not being taught to discriminate. As a note of interest they also have one of the worlds leading education systems and a very high standard of living and are ranked amongst the worlds most peace loving countries.


Amazing things happen when you learn to lay down the hate! We are all on the same ship and we owe each other a huge amount of loyalty.

And aint that what its really all about??? learning to love and and forgetting how to hate!


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## Jill (May 16, 2012)

*Pro*-gay rights Virginian republicans are also alive and well:






The GOP doesn't have the market cornered on being anti-gay, and neither does my beautiful state of Virginia.

Knowing of the news story to which you refer, I am not unhappy to have had liberal judicial nominee blocked. His sexual orientation has nothing to do with why I feel that way.

This does, though, remind me of why I feel this issue and some of the other hot political topics today are SO divisive. They make us feel like we have less in common than we actually do.


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> anti-gay Republicans alive and well in Virginia - http://www.cbsnews.c...sMainColumnArea


I highly congratulate them on doing such an outstanding job of protecting the citizens of their state from the evil corruption of a gay jurist. Who knows what could happen next if they let such a thing happen. It's also good to know there are still people out there (mostly republican) who have not evolved or made progress in the last 200 years.

A witch, a witch let's burn her


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

ohmt said:


> I know Ozy
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey, a fence sitter  Believe me I know how you feel. I hate it when people call me an Atheist like it's some "religion" I have to be labeled as having. I way prefer the term "scientist" lol or better still "nontheist".


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## Jill (May 16, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Who knows what could happen next if they let such a thing happen. It's also good to know there are still people out there (mostly republican) who have not evolved or made progress in the last 200 years.


Miniwhinny, you didn't _mean_ to be inflammatory, I'm sure. Never leave a pot unstirred.



Mary Lou - LB said:


> Jill.. I hope you do not think my link was a personal attack on you.. It trully was not.. Just happen to find these things to share..and it happened to be in Virginia..


Thanks, Mary Lou.


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## lil hoofbeats (May 16, 2012)

> Hey, a fence sitter  Believe me I know how you feel. I hate it when people call me an Atheist like it's some "religion" I have to be labeled as having. I way prefer the term "scientist" lol or better still "nontheist".


I am just as skeptical about scientific theory's as i am about religion, except in science its called a hypothesis, not a "revelation" or an "inspiration."


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## lil hoofbeats (May 16, 2012)

Susie, i never knew Old Fort NC, was such a hotbed for progressive thinking!!!! I must say...WOW!

Things that make ya go Hmmm.....


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## Riverrose28 (May 16, 2012)

After reasearching Mr. Romney and his views, I must say, I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last candidate on the face of this Earth! I don't think he has one point of view that I agree with, and most of what he says is nothing, just fluff, no answers. I'm looking forward to the debates this fall!


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## Danielle_E. (May 16, 2012)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I sometimes feel Americans go way extreme (on both sides) on political issues.. All U.S. has to do is look NORTH and see how the happy people live in Canada.. that terrible socialist country with free health care for all it's citizens, no hand guns and YES, they accept same sex marriage.. <<< It is a non issue for all of the above..


I am North and when I see the debate and all that is happening with this issue in the U.S. it truly makes me sad that your society is so polarized on this issue. Many of you are aghast when things happen in the middle-east in the name of religion or that governement and religion are so closely tied together in their laws, etc. On this issue, gay marriage, the U.S. is very judgemental and as far as I am concerned causing hatred or non-tolerance of a group of people in your society. I feel for the gay and lesbian individuals who are in a relationship and wish to show their love for their partner and wish to get married and have the same basic rights as others in heterosexual marriages. Why are people so vehement against? Most of them come up with the explanation that it is stated in the bible, blah blah blah. To them I say you have been brain washed by priest, pastors, etc. who are spewing this hate and like sheep you follow blindly and don't question or read their bible yourself. I know what the bible tells us, it tells us to treat others as we wish to be treated, it tells us he who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone, you will not judge others... and on and on it goes. Gee, I never knew so many were of the opinion of themselves that they are perfect and without fault. Where has the humility gone? Where has the compassion gone? We are all concerned about bullying in schools and we try and teach our children but look at us adults. It seems bullying is more prevalent in adults, what kind of example are we teaching our children about tolerance and love and to respect individuality?. I just don't understand the mentality, are people afraid and if so afraid of what??? These individuals should have all the rights and freedoms that everyone else has, period. There is absolutely no reason to deny them this, none. JMHO


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> I am just as skeptical about scientific theory's as i am about religion, except in science its called a hypothesis, not a "revelation" or an "inspiration."








Although if you know anything about what it takes to form a scientific theory which I'm sure you do then you know just how much work, testing, proving, more testing and more proving, experiments etc that goes into researching a scientific "theory". As opposed to religion which by it's sheer nature requires nothing more than "faith". Faith that indeed the world is only 7000 years old, faith that there was a giant world wide flood with waters higher than Mt. Everest, faith that although it would be scientifically impossible to fit two of every species into a small wooden boat (let alone get them there from the far reaching corners of the planet) - it never the less happened etc, etc. These things require no scientific testing because there is no scientific evidence to say any of them are real. Science and Faith don't mix well 

Also the word "theory" in science has a very different meaning than it does in everyday usage.

"_Everything becomes clear if you assign their proper meanings to words like "theory", "law" etc. in a scientific context. In particular, "theory" is not an insult as in the silly saying "it's just a theory". A theory is simply the most elaborate form of consistent scientific knowledge not yet disproven by experiment"._

And of course and back to the original topic of this thread, it takes faith to believe that indeed homosexuals are "an abomination and should be put to death". As science has established that homosexuality is indeed something that occurs in fetal development and not something people can "control" by will. I'll opt for the scientific explanation and continue to live by my "live and let live" outlook.


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> I am North and when I see the debate and all that is happening with this issue in the U.S. it truly makes me sad that your society is so polarized on this issue. Many of you are aghast when things happen in the middle-east in the name of religion or that governement and religion are so closely tied together in their laws, etc. On this issue, gay marriage, the U.S. is very judgemental and as far as I am concerned causing hatred or non-tolerance of a group of people in your society. I feel for the gay and lesbian individuals who are in a relationship and wish to show their love for their partner and wish to get married and have the same basic rights as others in heterosexual marriages. Why are people so vehement against? Most of them come up with the explanation that it is stated in the bible, blah blah blah. To them I say you have been brain washed by priest, pastors, etc. who are spewing this hate and like sheep you follow blindly and don't question or read their bible yourself. I know what the bible tells us, it tells us to treat others as we wish to be treated, it tells us he who is without sin among you, let him be the first to throw a stone, you will not judge others... and on and on it goes. Gee, I never knew so many were of the opinion of themselves that they are perfect and without fault. Where has the humility gone? Where has the compassion gone? We are all concerned about bullying in schools and we try and teach our children but look at us adults. It seems bullying is more prevalent in adults, what kind of example are we teaching our children about tolerance and love and to respect individuality?. I just don't understand the mentality, are people afraid and if so afraid of what??? These individuals should have all the rights and freedoms that everyone else has, period. There is absolutely no reason to deny them this, none. JMHO


Bravo






What a well written post


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

Riverrose28 said:


> After reasearching Mr. Romney and his views, I must say, I wouldn't vote for him if he was the last candidate on the face of this Earth! I don't think he has one point of view that I agree with, and most of what he says is nothing, just fluff, no answers. I'm looking forward to the debates this fall!


100% agree with you.


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## JennyB (May 16, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Been pretty busy today and haven't had the TV or radio on. Can't tell you how mad that makes me. I've been a republican my entire voting life and I will NOT be casting a vote for this man, in fact I'm seriously thinking about voting Obama to help make sure Romney doesn't get in. If the President of the United States has no regard for the principles we were founded on what hope do we have. I don't expect this man to keep his cult/religion out of his politics for one second. Sure wish RP stood a fraction of a chance. He may be a religious man but at least he knows when to separate it. Next thing we'll find is he will want science books banned from public schools for printing heresy.


" If the President of the United States has no regard for the principles we were founded on what hope do we have"...HELLO!!!!...You honestly believe that Obama has the principles we founded this country in????????....When he was born in Kenya. Plus all the other crap he has done in his term as President, and I voted for the "B.........."! .....I live deep in Morman country. I am not a Morman and don't believe their religion, but they are very good people and most of them would give you the shirts off their backs to help you out. There are good and bad people in every religion and even though I don't like the choice I have this year...I will NOT vote for Obama! .....The government is so terrible corrupt now, that whomever because our next President it doesn't matter the whole country is down the toilet! ..........As for Gay marriage, I am not for it as the Bible will tell you, but we need to leave people to their own business. I have many good friends who are Mormans and Gay people, worked for both and have enjoyed every moment of our friendships. If asked why I don't believe in Mormanism or Gay people, I will tell them. If they don't ask, then so be it. ..JMO


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## susanne (May 16, 2012)

.

Critical mass is slowly shifting. Change may be slow in coming, but it IS coming, whether conservative churches, the reactionary right, or prejudiced individuals like it or not. Sadly, it does not move swiftly enough for those who face prejudice today.

I believe MANY are afraid that, if they support gay and lesbian rights, their own sexuality will be questioned. I pity anyone who is that insecure.

Those who quote the bible when opposing gay rights need to remember the golden rule: *Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.* Imagine if YOUR love were denied, if YOU were despised for the way you were born, and if YOU were made to feel like a pariah in your community and in your own family... I cannot imagine if Keith and I were not allowed to be married. We were scoffed at by my anti-marriage sister, but I just told her to bite me and we did what we wanted. What if we didn't have that right?

As for denying marriage because churches don't approve: various sects and denominations have their own rules for couples to be married in their churches. They have the right to define, say, what constitutes a Catholic marriage. But all that means is that a non-conforming couple cannot be married IN THAT CHURCH. That does not stop a couple from being married by a justice of the peace OR in another church, or by a minister in a non-church setting.

If the Catholic Church (or any other church) does not approve of gay marriage, they don't have to allow it *in their church* -- that DOES NOT mean they have the right to forbid it in other churches or in a non-religious ceremony.


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## susanne (May 16, 2012)

Oh, yes, the old crap about Obama being born in Kenya...

Do you honestly believe that, if it were true, the GOP would not have brought it to light, either during the last election or more recently? If it were true, the Republican powers that be would have to be stupid or equally corrupt.

But this is a discussion about gay marriage, and we digress.


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## Jill (May 16, 2012)

Obama Kenyan? Maybe not, but maybe. Breitbart and Sheriff Joe have made me more interested over the past year or so admittedly sometimes in a day dreamy fashion. But, I don't know. However, when it comes to being a socialist, anti-American, job and business killing, narcissistic, racist? Yeah, I think Obama's got those qualities down pat.

Can't vote for Romney? Then don't, but know that you are then by action or inaction endorsing the alternative, and this time around, that alternative is four more years of Obama.


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## susanne (May 16, 2012)

My late sister was a died-in-the-wool socialist, and trust me, Jill, you don't have a clue what socialism is.

On the humorous side, Margot used to introduce Keith and me as "her sister and brother-in-law, the yuppies." To which I replied, "You have to understand that my sister's definition of a yuppie is anyone whose job isn't dependent upon a yearly grant proposal."

Whatever her political beliefs, she was a brilliant, kind, yet uncompromising woman who would have defended your right to your opinions to the death. (BTW, she would have considered Obama a middle-of-the-road sellout, LOL)


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

JennyB said:


> HELLO!!!!...You honestly believe that Obama has the principles we founded this country in????????....When he was born in Kenya.











JennyB said:


> As for Gay marriage, I am not for it as the Bible will tell you


I really appreciate your honesty. In a thread with a lot of people voicing opinions the other way I admire you voicing yours - thank you! I have one question that I have to ask though because as someone who is obviously religious and follows the bible in what your god wants of you regarding homosexuality...Do you believe in slavery? Because the bible says it's okay not only to own slaves but tells how you can acquire them, how close to death you can beat them and how to have sex with the female ones (of course unless you are a female and that would be gay which we know isn't okay in the bible). I was just wondering or are you picking and choosing what parts to follow which is basically what this whole gay rights issues is about with the churches?


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## Jill (May 16, 2012)

Trust me, Susanne... I know exactly what socialism is. Really. I've even got some fancy things that hang on the wall to prove I know about these big economic terms


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## susanne (May 16, 2012)

Sorry, Jill, but I forgot about your degree in economics and history. (I don't remember if they are Bachelor's, Master's or Doctorate)

You accuse others of drinking the kool-aid -- you probably need to pee by now.

(Mary Lou, if you want to ban me for this, it was well worthwhile...)


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## Jill (May 16, 2012)

The American Banker's Association, the Institute of Business and Finance, the American College and almost 20 years of professional continuing education in the industry... Plus working with clients to help them acquire "The American Dream" in the early 90's and then obtaining the various security and insurance licenses I needed to build up a money management and financial planning practice through which I earn my living by helping my clients grow and protect their life savings. These things, of course, have also contributed to my appreciation of capitalism and my ability to recognize socialism when I see it.

Did you want to compare 1099's in addition to words?

I'm hardly alone in recognizing Obama as a socialist, and of course, I never carried his torch in 2008 either. I knew I didn't like the hopey-changey sugar-coated spin on socialism from the get go





AND, as to kool aid and peeing... got the blinders on? I mean, really now, Susanne? How are we better as a Nation today than we were on January 20, 2009 when Obama took office???


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## tagalong (May 16, 2012)

> Trust me, Susanne... I know exactly what socialism is. Really. I've even got some fancy things that hang on the wall to prove I know about these big economic terms


Well then, somehow you (and Glenn Beck & Rush and a host of others) are not always using that word correctly or seem to have misplaced its actual meaning along the way. It has now just become a hot-button word to point fingers with - much like _Communist! _was in the past - and the majority of people who use it could not give you an accurate definition. Ditto for Marxist. Actually, even more so for that one.



> Oh, yes, the old crap about Obama being born in Kenya...
> Do you honestly believe that, if it were true, the GOP would not have brought it to light, either during the last election or more recently? If it were true, the Republican powers that be would have to be stupid or equally corrupt.


If there was even a modicum of doubt about that - Hillary and/or the McCain campaign would have rightly been all over it. I am sure they checked into every dark corner they could - they were not fools -_ and found nothing because there is nothing to find beyond a birth in Hawaii_. I still want to hear the Birthers explanation of how the birth announcement appeared in the Honolulu newspaper back then and then was saved on microfilm as all old newspaper archives were - _decades ago_. Oh - I know - some evil person (probably an Islamic terrorist) put that announcement in the paper back then knowing that decades later, Obama would be elected. Uh huh. Riiiiight.

_I wish people could stick to actual topics of concern as opposed to fairy tales..._





And when we look to Sheriff Joe and Donald Trump as sages on that subject, it is just sad. They both will say anything to get into the news and Trump backed down as everyone knew he would. He just uses hot button topics to get attention and promote whatever his current project is. And Arpaio's "investigation" has amounted - and will amount - to nothing... unless they start making things up.

But I digress as well... back on topic.



> I'm looking forward to the debates this fall!


I'm not. Not at all. Oh, I would be if people could discuss such things without venom and vitriol - but as we saw in 2008, that is impossible. And I am not just talking about here - but Out There...


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## susanne (May 16, 2012)

That's good, Jill. Some business colleges, institutes and trade schools are quite good, and not everyone sees the need for a well-rounded university education. I guess I'm just one of those intellectual, liberal elitists.

...as for Obama being socialist...So-called "socialist" programs (V.A. Administration, Social Security, Education to name just a few) are a world away from Socialism. Just as democracy and Democrat don't necessarily mean the same thing. (The joke there is too obvious!)

As for our 1099s, I've made my life choices according to my values and what I truly wanted out of life, not according to my paycheck. I've never regretted a thing. I'll put my happiness and the good that I've done for others up against that of anyone.


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## susanne (May 16, 2012)

Sorry, Mary Lou. I've seen months of political bullying and finally had to say something. I'm done now and will behave.


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## Jill (May 16, 2012)

Susanne, I'll grant you your Liberal self assessment without any argument but I hope you'll refrain from any more outward reflections about me personally. I will continue to show you that same courtesy. Whatever you may want to believe, nothing about how and where I come by my education, expertise and initiative has negatively impacted my economic, business or personal success. My self esteem is a-ok, too


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## Riverrose28 (May 16, 2012)

Danielle E, your post was wonderful. Change is coming! Not to many decades ago Native Ameican did not have the right to vote, even though they were here first, now they do. Only five decades ago African Americans and Whites couldn't marry, now they can. Soon all the states will allow gay marriage, it's coming. We all need to stand for Liberty for all, not just a few.

what really got me today, was listening to a friend that went to one of Mr. Romneys meetings, he told me that Mr. Romney wants to remove some of OSHA's requirements. This has distrubed me more then his stance on a womans right to chose.

As for the statement about President Obama being born in Kenya, I have no comment at this time.


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## JennyB (May 16, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Although if you know anything about what it takes to form a scientific theory which I'm sure you do then you know just how much work, testing, proving, more testing and more proving, experiments etc that goes into researching a scientific "theory". As opposed to religion which by it's sheer nature requires nothing more than "faith". Faith that indeed the world is only 7000 years old, faith that there was a giant world wide flood with waters higher than Mt. Everest, faith that although it would be scientifically impossible to fit two of every species into a small wooden boat (let alone get them there from the far reaching corners of the planet) - it never the less happened etc, etc. These things require no scientific testing because there is no scientific evidence to say any of them are real. Science and Faith don't mix well



There is MUCH proof to back up the Bible and less proof of "scientific" knownledge that we have honestly evolved from Monkeys!...If that were so and primitive "Man" was evolving all the hundreds of thousands of years that scientists claim, we should be asking why don't we have the hypothetical ape-like ancestor, the real missing link? Or, why don't we have the required intermediate forms? How can such change happen? The claim that transitional individuals were few in number, and thus unlikely to be fossilized and discovered, rings hollow. The fact is, we don't have them! The evolution claims are only stories. In their story, man and apes diverged from the imaginary ancestor some seven million years ago. Surely some would be fossilized. Evolution is best understood as an anti-God origin myth, attempting to explain man's existence without a Creator. We can do better.......

There is a higher being which is GOD...He has and can do anything, including have 2 of every animal come into an ark. There is proof that Pharoahs army went into the red sea...there is proof that Sodom and Gomarrah existed and was burned. There is proof that the 6 day war happened. There are many examples in the Bible that scientists and geologists have actually proven really did happened.

How does science know that the world is hundreds and thousands upon thousands of years old? ...we were watching a program on tv last night and it was about Yellowstone. What really intriged me was that supposedly it had erupted twice in it's existance..how they determined that I don't know. Was there was a reporter there when it happened?....Of course not!..When St Helen's erupted, they were amazed at what happened and have learned a lot, why, because "WE"--"Man" was here when she erupted!....they were amazed that plants could grow through the ash so quickly. They were amazed that there are fish in the lake now and there is no scientific proof of how those fish got there!.

Do you ever wonder why the scientists say, "well this is what happened and this is how old it is"....how do they really know? Do you honestly believe that we come from a single-celled microorganisms that were the first forms of life to develop on Earth, approximately 3–4 billion years ago??

There is proof of many things yes and very true things, and one of the many is that this world is only 7000 years old and that comes from God through the Bible. God made everything! Why is it so easy for you to believe what scientists say, yet so hard to believe in God and the Bible?...I know this is totally OFF the subject, but we feel very passionate about this.......If you can prove to me that we come from Apes let me know how???

Jenny


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## JennyB (May 16, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> I really appreciate your honesty. In a thread with a lot of people voicing opinions the other way I admire you voicing yours - thank you! I have one question that I have to ask though because as someone who is obviously religious and follows the bible in what your god wants of you regarding homosexuality...Do you believe in slavery? Because the bible says it's okay not only to own slaves but tells how you can acquire them, how close to death you can beat them and how to have sex with the female ones (of course unless you are a female and that would be gay which we know isn't okay in the bible). I was just wondering or are you picking and choosing what parts to follow which is basically what this whole gay rights issues is about with the churches?


No I don't believe in slavery. It's hard to translate what the Bible through God is saying without really, really studying it and having someone help you with the reasons for what happened and why. I will just give you a tiny bit of what my feelings are.

---

God is the same yesterday, today and forever, but people are not. Ancient cultures had practices that are hard for us to understand today. God dealt with the ancient Hebrews in ways they could understand. He didn't tell them they had to throw out everything they had ever believed about what society should look like, but He did give them new rules that worked with the way they thought, not against it, to gradually teach them better ways.

studying the history of Christianity was that in the first few centuries after Jesus died (that's almost 2000 years ago now!), Christians were doing different things with their slaves than non-Christians.

The first Christians lived in an empire ruled by Rome which covered most of the land surrounding the Mediterranean Sea. In the Roman Empire, lots of people owned slaves, and those who were not Christians treated them very badly, as if they were animals and not people! Although some Christians owned slaves as well, they believed that those slaves were people and just as valuable to God as the Emperor himself! In fact, many Christians decided to do something really amazing: they freed their slaves (the long word for that is manumission, pronounced man-you-mish-un).

In other words, although Christians loved reading the Bible and saw that in Exodus God's followers owned slaves, they believed that because Jesus came to make us all equal, it wasn't right for some people to be owned by other people the way we own dogs and cats and sheep and things. So they set their slaves free and made it possible for them to be full citizens in the Empire (which means they gave them some money and possibly also gave them the same last name as the slave-owner so that they would have a new identity).

Sadly, lots of Christians forgot this in the centuries that followed and for a long time started owning slaves again. But it was also Christians in England and Christians in America who started the movements to stop slavery once and for all.

Christian archeological sites was slave names listed as church leaders and slaves being buried among free and wealthy citizen Christians with no distinctions between their burial modes.

---

There is so much in the Bible that I still have trouble understanding, it just takes time, although I have no doubts that God exists, he made everything and God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit or one.

Jenny


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## ohmt (May 16, 2012)

Jenny-i am sorry, but evolution does NOT state we come from monkeys!!! I love hearing the bible vs science arguments when it is obvious the people have not studied anything but the bible (and even that's usually rusty)


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## JennyB (May 16, 2012)

ohmt said:


> Jenny-i am sorry, but evolution does NOT state we come from monkeys!!! I love hearing the bible vs science arguments when it is obvious the people have not studied anything but the bible (and even that's usually rusty)


I did not mean Monkey's like today, but was referring to primitive "Man"...which of course the scientists say we both come from. I believe strongly in studying all sorts of things. I don't just read the Bible, but am sorry for those who don't and I am sorry you feel that the Bible is "rusty"...



......I can't make people believe in something they don't want to "ever" know or believe in, but if I am asked something specific I will give the best answer I can give. God's Bible is NOT Rusty!

Jenny


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

JennyB said:


> *If you can prove to me that we come from Apes let me know how???*
> 
> Jenny


Jenny, I can't think of one evolutionary biologist who would ever say we come from Apes! I think you need to rethink who you're listening to.



JennyB said:


> *There is proof of many things yes and very true things, and one of the many is that this world is only 7000 years old and that comes from God through the Bible.*
> 
> Jenny


I'm sorry Jenny I mean no disrespect but when someone makes a statement as completely ridiculous as this I know that trying to talk to them in a rational way is a complete waste of time. The earth is NOT and I can't repeat that enough times, the earth is NOT 7000 years old. That's as absurd as saying the water volume of the Pacific ocean would fit in a soup bowl.



ohmt said:


> Jenny-i am sorry, but evolution does NOT state we come from monkeys!!! I love hearing the bible vs science arguments when it is obvious the people have not studied anything but the bible (and even that's usually rusty)


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## ohmt (May 16, 2012)

Are you talking Neanderthals (excuse my spelling), of which their remains have been found and studied all over the world? That's Sociology 101 right there-i think i have an extra book from my freshman year of college that you could have if you'd like.

While i do think the bible is rusty (it was written by people, not God), that's not what i said



i said those who tend to quote the bible are often rusty on their knowledge of it. I wasn't talking about you in particular (i stopped reading what you typed after the monkey comment),but about people in general that seem to bring up the bible vs science argument.


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## lil hoofbeats (May 16, 2012)

> The earth is NOT and I can't repeat that enough times, the earth is NOT 7000 years old.


I am sure that was just a joke, no one would actually believe the earth is only 7000 years old, right?

Thats like believing a Jewish guy, who was his own father can make you live forever if you symbolically eat his flesh, and telepathically tell him you accept him as your master so he can remove all evil force from your soul that is present in humanity, because a rib women was convinced, by talking to a snake, to eat from a magical tree. .

_*Now if thats not a fairy tale, i dont know what is!*_


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## susanne (May 16, 2012)

I know many wonderful, caring Christians and respect their right to believe as they wish, but my sense of right and wrong comes not from religious teaching, but from my parents and from my life experiences. I refuse to let any religion, social group, government or whatever override my sense of humanity and tell me that hatred and bigotry are okay when directed at those who differ from us.

And, I'm sorry, but I don't buy it when people say they can't accept homosexuality, but -- OH! NO! -- they would never judge them, and of course they love them. This is the religious equivalent of "Well bless your heart!"


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## ozymandias (May 16, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> I am sure that was just a joke, no one would actually believe the earth is only 7000 years old, right?


Yes, Jenny believes it read her post!

I'm not sure where that leaves the known and recorded human settlements existing 8000 years ago in Turkey, Nigeria, China, the Southwestern USA, Scotland, Ireland, England, Norway. 9000 years ago we lived in semi permanent houses and made boats, 10,000 years ago humans were hunting mammoths and domesticated plants like wheat and barley the list goes on. Guess no one told them they couldn't exist on a world not yet created. But if you can convince people the earth is 7000 years old then how much easier it would be to convince you that homosexuals should be out to death (and certainly not allowed to marry).


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## lil hoofbeats (May 16, 2012)

> I did not mean Monkey's like today, but was referring to primitive "Man"...which of course the scientists say we both come from. I believe strongly in studying all sorts of things. I don't just read the Bible, but am sorry for those who don't and I am sorry you feel that the Bible is "rusty"...
> 
> 
> 
> ......I can't make people believe in something they don't want to "ever" know or believe in, but if I am asked something specific I will give the best answer I can give. God's Bible is NOT Rusty!


Someone told me something one time that i thought was pretty interesting, if all the atheist left the USA, it would loose 93% of the National Academy of Sciences, but less than 1% of the prison population.

So as a true Christian would say, i hate the sin, but not the sinner.

In this case i hate the belief, but i care about the believer.


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## Ashley (May 16, 2012)

I have read every post on this topic but stay pretty quiet. As many know, I do not hide, I am openly gay. I also have a beautiful, amazing, bright and intellegant 6 month old daughter. While I would probably never get married if I was allowed to, I would have at one time. I also would love to see many of my fellow "family" have that right if they so wish.

The bible also states "we are created in his image" and he created some people gay, just like he created some people straight. Anybody that knows me, knows that I tried and tried hard to be something other than I am. It wasn’t until I finally gave up trying to be something different that I found peace and happiness. Life finally came together.

I am not a bad mom, a bad daughter, a bad sister or a bad friend because I am gay. I am a great mother and have an amazing daughter to prove it. I am not doing her or anybody else in this society any harm by being who I am.

I have never understood how some can believe parts of the bible but not all of it. The problem with the bible is that it can be taken many different ways.

I seen something posted somewhere one day, it was something like this “ Do you really think god is going to judge somebody for being gay, but not judge your for judging/hating them? “ really? Last I check it wasn’t anybody’s job to judge anybody else.


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## Mona (May 16, 2012)

GREAT post Ashley!


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## tagalong (May 16, 2012)

> I am sure that was just a joke, no one would actually believe the earth is only 7000 years old, right?


Actually, many creationists think it is only 6,000 years old. Ignore all that scientific stuff about carbon dating, rock formation, fossils, continental drift etc. etc.

The Bible is not a text book and yes, I have read it. When I had to sit with my sister through long church services while my parents sang in the choir, it was the only thing to read.



I can recite all the smutty parts in the Old Testament to you (and there are a lot of them) and all the bizarre laws. It has been written and re-written and retranslated through the ages... the "original" Greek or Aramaic version would likely bear very little resemblance to what we read today. Every translation felt they had to tweak something. At some points, entire books were left out/omitted. It is not the word of God but the words of all those who contributed to it. It may be a good learning resource by way of stories and parables and lines up with some history at certain points - but it is not an encyclopedic text with dates that can be checked when it comes to The Beginning.

So yes, the Bible is a bit "rusty". NOWHERE in that "rusty" Bible does it say the earth began at a particular point in time - so how on earth do Creationists come up with 6,000 or 7,000 years? The same way Harold Camping figured out that the world was coming to an end on May 21, 2011. Whoops.

Evolution does happen and maybe intelligent design had a hand in it if you believe in such things but it does not happen overnight - which is what 6,000 years amounts to in the age of the earth.

As far as a missing link goes - look up Lucy. Or the more recently discovered one whose "name" escapes me at the moment...

Or look up Australopithecus.



> What really intriged me was that supposedly it had erupted twice in it's existance..how they determined that I don't know. Was there was a reporter there when it happened?


How they determine a lot of that is by geological changes and features. The sedimentary layer samples as well as the igneous and metamorphic rock layers. There may not have been a reporter there but the evidence was left behind.


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## Jill (May 17, 2012)

As I've said, I support equal rights for all committed couples... however:

LB is known to be a liberal "hangout", and so often the stereotypical liberal personality is showcased here. Tolerance for everyone, except for those who don't share "the" liberal point of view.

I can't help but notice the intolerance shown by many of you "screaming" that you can't stand the intolerance of others. We all have a right to, and valid reasons for, our own opinions. It's pretty ironic, really, when "you" compare your own words with your actual acceptance of others.

... Kind of a spin on Animal Farm? "Acceptance for all, but some are more acceptable than others."


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## lil hoofbeats (May 17, 2012)

> I can't help but notice the intolerance in many of you "screaming" that you can't stand the intolerance of others. We all have a right to, and valid reasons for, our own opinions. It's pretty ironic, really, when "you" compare your own words with your actual acceptance of others.


Not true Jill!!!

Like i said i detest your belief, but i care about you.

I just cannot believe this beautiful , wonderful world of ours, that we should diminish it, with the invention of cheap man made myths! Maybe you dont want to hear the truth because you dont want your illusions destroyed.


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## Jill (May 17, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> Not true Jill!!!
> 
> Like i said i detest your belief, but i care about you.
> 
> I just cannot believe this beautiful , wonderful world of ours, that we should diminish it, with the invention of cheap man made myths! Maybe you dont want to heart the truth because you dont want your illusions destroyed.


What belief of mine do you detest? Because I thought we actually both felt marriage should be an option for all couples who desire it...


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law.

-Thomas Jefferson, letter to Dr. Thomas Cooper, February 10, 1814

I would also propose and promote once again an amendment to the constitution to define marriage as a relationship between a man and a woman.

- Mitt Romney 2012.


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

Why do some want to make this a liberal versus a conservative issue? It is not nor should your politicians either side use this to polarize voters. I find this sickening, truly.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."

Either you uphold your Constitution and believe the words that were written so long ago or your are just paying lip service to applying it to certain segments of your population which makes it hypocritical.

I ask again, why are people so scared of granting the right of "marriage" to gay and lesbians? I am truly trying to understand those that are so opposed. How does or will it affect your life personally? It doesn't and it won't! Please don' t politicies this, this is a humanitarian issue. Those of us who are in heterosexual marriages should not have a holier than thou attitude because so many heterosexual marriages today end in divorce.


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Why do some want to make this a liberal versus a conservative issue? It is not nor should your politicians either side use this to polarize voters. I find this sickening, truly.
> 
> "We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness."
> 
> ...


Well written Danielle.

I believe the majority of not all of the people who are against it are against it based solely on their religion. The bible makes it very clear, there are no gray areas, where the god of the bible stands on homosexuality (as opposed to all of the thousands of other gods that have come and gone over time) this particular god says homosexuality is a sin and that's why the religious are prepared to vote accordingly.


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

Ashley, I wish I could give you a big hug. I am so sorry that you have to defend your lifestyle and motherhood and have been made to feel, at some point in your life, as less than a good mother, partner, sister, daughter, based on your sexual orientation. It truly boggles my mind at the cruelty in this world and yet those that have made you feel this way are the bigots and hypocrites in this world. They think they are perfect when in fact that is probably the furthest from reality and the truth. Hold your head up high my dear and never allow these individuals to make you feel any less worthy.


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## KanoasDestiny (May 17, 2012)

I am a good person...I don't steal and I try not to lie, I have a job and pay taxes, I treat others fairly and don't pass judgement on to them or their lifestyles, I donate to charities and hold the door open for those behind me, I have never done drugs or been arrested...that's all someone needs to know about me. Who I love or sleep with is not important, and does not affect the member of society I am.


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## jyuukai (May 17, 2012)

At least I'm not the only lesbian here. +1 Ashley! I am sorry you've had a generally bad experience with not being accepted though, I've always been so spoiled by acceptance. It blows my mind when people judge me now haha


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

And God spoke all these words, saying: “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of bondage.

You shall have no other gods before me.

You shall not make for yourself any carved image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers on the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate me, but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

You shall not take the name of the Lord your God in vain, for the Lord will not hold him guiltless who takes His name in vain.

Remember the Sabbath day, to keep it holy. Six days you shall labor and do all your work, but the seventh day is the Sabbath of the Lord your God. In it you shall do no work: you, nor your son, nor your daughter, nor your manservant, nor your maidservant, nor your cattle, nor your stranger who is within your gates. For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea, and all that is in them, and rested the seventh day. Therefore the Lord blessed the Sabbath day and hallowed it.

Honor your father and your mother, that your days may be long upon the land which the Lord your God is giving you.

You shall not murder.

You shall not commit adultery.

You shall not steal.

You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.

You shall not covet your neighbor’s house; you shall not covet your neighbor’s wife, nor his manservant, nor his maidservant, nor his ox, nor his donkey, nor anything that is your neighbor’s.”

If I look at the above I see that most of humanity has fallen short of these commandments

I am a non-practicing catholic by choice now. I could not in good conscience follow leaders that are suppose to be God's representatives when so many abhorrent things have been done.

If you look at one commandment alone, about having idols so much of humankind has fallen short! How many of us who consider ourselves Christian have broken the commandment about the sabbath? and yet we have the audacity to judge homosexuals and lesbians? What gives us the right to do so, because we follow our faith to the letter? Or do we just pick and choose from scripture and interpret it so that we give ourselves the right to judge others but not look at our own lives and actions?


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## drmatthewtaylor (May 17, 2012)

Jill said:


> As I've said, I support equal rights for all committed couples... however:
> 
> LB is known to be a liberal "hangout", and so often the stereotypical liberal personality is showcased here. Tolerance for everyone, except for those who don't share "the" liberal point of view.
> 
> ...


Had a surgery cancel at the last minute this morning, so I had some free time on my hands.

I appreciated your post and reread this thread as well. I decided to list all of the 'less than positive' ways folks here have chosen to describe people who don't agree with them.

Disgusted, backwards, masses, sheep, hatred, dark ages, many uncomplimentary things about North Carolina residents, cult, discrimination, hetero-sexist pig, pig southern state, pig headed, hate, anti-gay, evil, unevolved, burning witches, intolerant, brain washed, spewing hate, follow blindly, bully, afraid, insecure, kool-aid drinker, rusty, ridiculous, absurd, smutty, bizarre, holier than though, scared.

I understand many awful things have been said to and about homosexuals. I abhor it and I am sorry about it.

But, I don't believe either myself or others on this forum have said unkind things. If you want to convince someone, I would encourage you to not resort to name calling.

My concern with gay marriage is the slippery slope argument. If the arguments for gay marriage are love is love, stay out of people's bedroom/personal life, and it doesn't hurt anybody; then why wouldn't those arguments apply to the polygamist, or the parent/adult child, or siblings? Along with that, why does marriage discriminate against the poor? Shouldn't it be free with no restrictions or requirements?

Dr Taylor


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> My concern with gay marriage is the slippery slope argument. If the arguments for gay marriage are love is love, stay out of people's bedroom/personal life, and it doesn't hurt anybody; then why wouldn't those arguments apply to the polygamist, or the parent/adult child, or siblings?


Hey I hear ya dude, because we all know that we don't have any of those issues now with only heterosexual marriages being allowed and those gays are a slippery not to be trusted group just like polygamists and pedophiles they're grouped with, in fact they may all be in cahoots, you never know  Better keep the gay people as far away from being able to marry as possible so we don't get the sheep shaggers trying to follow suit.


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## lil hoofbeats (May 17, 2012)

> How many of us who consider ourselves Christian have broken the commandment about the sabbath? and yet we have the audacity to judge homosexuals and lesbians? What gives us the right to do so, because we follow our faith to the letter? Or do we just pick and choose from scripture and interpret it so that we give ourselves the right to judge others but not look at our own lives and actions?


*Now thats what im scream'in!!!!!*



> I believe the majority of not all of the people who are against it are against it based solely on their religion.


Religion has slowed down all moral progress for centuries, and claims to be the cornerstone for morality.





_There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism is a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that " my ignorance is as good as your knowledge."_-_ Isaac Asimov_


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> *Now thats what im scream'in!!!!!*
> 
> Religion has slowed down all moral progress for centuries, and claims to be the cornerstone for morality.
> 
> ...


Priests...dread the advance of science as witches do the approach of daylight and scowl on the fatal harbinger announcing the subversions of the duperies on which they live.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to Correa de Serra, April 11, 1820


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## tagalong (May 17, 2012)

> Tolerance for everyone, except for those who don't share "the" liberal point of view.
> 
> I can't help but notice the intolerance shown by many of you "screaming" that you can't stand the intolerance of others. We all have a right to, and valid reasons for, our own opinions. It's pretty ironic, really, when "you" compare your own words with your actual acceptance of others.


Once again - making blanket statements and/or suggesting that all the Liberals here have no tolerance for those who do not share a liberal point of view is completely inaccurate.

Show me where "many" of us have "screamed". I have seen _you_, Jill , go after others in a nasty enough way in the past that entire threads were deleted and sucked into the void and the entire topic of Politics was banned for a long time



... there was not a lot of tolerance for opposing viewpoints shown then...





If I disagree with a viewpoint then am I intolerant of it and "screaming" about it - or just expressing my opinion? If I was conservative it seems it would be okay, but If I am liberal - I would likely be labelled as intolerant and "screaming"...







> My concern with gay marriage is the slippery slope argument. If the arguments for gay marriage are love is love, stay out of people's bedroom/personal life, and it doesn't hurt anybody; then why wouldn't those arguments apply to the polygamist, or the parent/adult child, or siblings?


With all due respect, IMO that is an alarmist and specious argument. _"Well, if THIS happens then of course THAT will happen and people will be marrying their dogs/garbage cans/grandmas... "_

All that is wanted is recognition and acceptance of marriage between two consenting adults - the same as any heterosexual couple is entitled to. It is not a slippery slope - but firm footholds on an uphill climb...


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## ohmt (May 17, 2012)

I think a few of those were taken out of context (like rusty, again), Dr. Taylor



Personally, i try not to judge polygamists-if everyone is happy, then it's none of my business. Incest is a little hard for me to swallow as i feel there is someone being taken advantage of in those situations or other problems. I still hear of cousins marrying every once in a while, and again, i try not to judge as it's none of my business, but i don't think i've ever heard of a parent/child situation in which it wasn't rape. On another note, i think most states allow incestuous marriage, if i'm not mistaken. Will have to try to find that info for you (maybe it's just cousins?). I'm a little confused about how it discriminates against the poor. Will you elaborate?

There have been harsh "tones" on both sides. It's a subject many feel very strongly about, including myself. That's not anything anyone should be ashamed of. All should remember that when posting on something like this, there may very well be a passionate response that you don't like. The ability to have these conversations and then step away and know most everyone here has a good heart and was just standing up for what they believe in is what brings people together.


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## lil hoofbeats (May 17, 2012)

> Hey I hear ya dude, because we all know that we don't have any of those issues now with only heterosexual marriages being allowed and those gays are a slippery not to be trusted group just like polygamists and pedophiles they're grouped with, in fact they may all be in cahoots, you never know  Better keep the gay people as far away from being able to marry as possible so we don't get the sheep shaggers trying to follow suit.


Too KWEEL!!!!!!!!!!



> My concern with gay marriage is the slippery slope argument. If the arguments for gay marriage are love is love, stay out of people's bedroom/personal life, and it doesn't hurt anybody; then why wouldn't those arguments apply to the polygamist, or the parent/adult child, or siblings? Along with that, why does marriage discriminate against the poor? Shouldn't it be free with no restrictions or requirements?


So.... Dr. Taylor you have made some good points, and i have been thinking about it, and to tell you the truth, i dont have an answer to as to why a daughter would marry a Father, or such things as that. Polygamist.... thought about that too. I am not sure that should *not* be allowed.

Because things are foreign to me, and something i would not do, does not necessarily make them wrong. I am open to different forms of relationships as long as the individuals involved are not hurt by them.


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Once again - making blanket statements and/or suggesting that all the Liberals here have no tolerance for those who do not share a liberal opint of view is completely inaccurate.
> 
> Show me where "many" of us have "screamed". I have seen _you_, Jill , go after others in a nasty enough way in the past that entire threads were deleted and sucked into the void and the entire topic of Politics was banned for a long time
> 
> ...


I've never understood why people throw in the tolerance card when it comes to discrimination. What, we're supposed to tolerate any form of hatred or denial or rights simple because it's biblical in it's base.

I 100% support and am tolerant of those who's religion doesn't hurt others.

Why am I expected to be tolerant of a group who want to deny other human beings the same fundamental rights they themselves enjoy based solely on a few words written by some men 2000 years ago. If my thinking it's wrong to hate others based on your religion makes me intollerant. Then proudly intollerant stand I



I'm not tolerant of ANY discrimination against gays, blacks, whites, people with mental and physical disabilities, people of different ethnic backgrounds etc. These are all thing that the people have no control over. You can't, if you're black, go to bed and wake up white. You can't if you're disabled, go to bed and wake up whole. You can't if you're gay go to bed and wake up not gay. You CAN choose, because of your religion, to be a bigot and if that bigotry causes intentional harm to another then "yes" I am intolerant of that.


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

Dr Taylor, may I ask why you are trying to expand this to polygamy and so on? I don't judge polygamists, heck there is a reality show on t.v. about such a family. I personally feel that I do not have the right to judge any adult (consenting adults) when it comes to marriage as we define it in our society. Notice I said consenting and adults. This issue boils down to people being uncomfortable and afraid of I don't know what. Do people who are opposed think that these unions are going to harm them personally or change their own beliefs? Religion is your own personal walk of faith that should NOT be pushed on those that do not have the same belief system. Nor should anyone, whether catholic, baptist, protestant, muslim, mormon, jehovah's witnesses, etc , be able to dictate other people's morales when those morales do not in anyway put the population of a society in danger. I believe in some culture that marriage between family members (cousin to cousin, etc) is encouraged. I may not agree with this but what direct effect does that have in my life?


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

I 100% support and am tolerant of those who's religion doesn't hurt others.

Why am I expected to be tolerant of a group who want to deny other human beings the same fundamental rights they themselves enjoy based solely on a few words written by some men 2000 years ago. If my thinking it's wrong to hate others based on your religion makes me intollerant. Then proudly intollerant stand I I'm not tolerant of ANY discrimination against gays, blacks, whites, people with mental and physical disabilities, people of different ethnic backgrounds etc. These are all thing that the people have no control over. You can't, if you're black, go to bed and wake up white. You can't if you're disabled, go to bed and wake up whole. You CAN choose, because of your religion, to be a bigot and if that bigotry causes intentional harm to another then "yes" I am intolerant of that.

Amen!! I stand with you!


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## ohmt (May 17, 2012)

" I 100% support and am tolerant of those who's religion doesn't hurt others.

Why am I expected to be tolerant of a group who want to deny other human beings the same fundamental rights they themselves enjoy based solely on a few words written by some men 2000 years ago. If my thinking it's wrong to hate others based on your religion makes me intollerant. Then proudly intollerant stand I I'm not tolerant of ANY discrimination against gays, blacks, whites, people with mental and physical disabilities, people of different ethnic backgrounds etc. These are all thing that the people have no control over. You can't, if you're black, go to bed and wake up white. You can't if you're disabled, go to bed and wake up whole. You can't if you're gay go to bed and wake up not gay. You CAN choose, because of your religion, to be a bigot and if that bigotry causes intentional harm to another then "yes" I am intolerant of that."

Great post


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> My concern with gay marriage is the slippery slope argument. If the arguments for gay marriage are love is love, stay out of people's bedroom/personal life, and it doesn't hurt anybody; then why wouldn't those arguments apply to the polygamist, or the parent/adult child
> 
> Dr Taylor


Pedophilia is a crime.

Polygamy is a crime.

Last time I heard, being gay was not a crime.


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

Polygamy in the days of the bible was not considered a crime, our societies have now made it a crime.


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

I probably owe an apology to those that don't agree with same sex marriage. It doesn't mean that I would ever turn my back on any of you if you were in peril or needed help or anything like that. I guess I am just a dreamer and have a profound wish, like each of you, that there would be no more wars, that hunger in the world didn't exist, that everyone was treated equally with understanding and compassion. That everyone felt safe and didn't need guns. Etc. I know, I am not a realist .... I just feel that we, the human race are our own worst enemiy. Maybe, just maybe things will get better but I feel like eventually we as humans will destroy ourselves. I am done with this subject.


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## Jill (May 17, 2012)

Me thinks you all protest too much. Must have hit closer to home than you want to admit. Funny thing, that "tolerance".

Those who really don't know what I mean, Dr. Taylor's list of your own intolerant words a couple or so pages back is pretty comprehensive and directly from this very thread.


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## Danielle_E. (May 17, 2012)

I was truly hoping that my words would be taken as sincere and healing for all in this divide subject. I am sorry Jill that you don,t feel this way and had to further the negative on both sides. I guess the two years I was away from this forum for this very reason is still alive and well and is not going to stop anytime soon. Time to depart for good.


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## Jill (May 17, 2012)

Oh, Danielle, I'm so sorry if me sticking to the opinion I honestly came by is an issue for you _(dare I say, hard to tolerate?)_, but I am just reporting what I've observed. That's not furthering negativity, but it is calling out others' stances for what I truly see them to be.


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## JennyB (May 17, 2012)

I cannot make any of you who are non-believers of the Bible believe the Bible if you don't want to learn more and it would take you months and years to fully understand it and God. If you ask me a question as a believer of God and the Bible I will as I have said before will try to answer you questions the best I can, although I am no expert on the Bible as my husband's late wife, Dorothy. She born and grew up a Morman and when she found out that it was a false religion, she was very angry. She spent the rest of her life reading everything she could about every religion, every scientific words and she came to the conclusion that God and what the Bible says is 100% true. Many of you might have read her daily words, she unfailingly wrote EVERY night on her web site, no matter what happened during the day even if her day was so filled up that she did this into the midnight hours..only to wake again at 5:00 am the next day to start all over again....If you knew Dorothy really well, you would know she knew her stuff and was telling the 100% truth. Of course again this was in her eyes and not your eyes. Everyone is different as it should be and we all believe in our own personally views. This is called "Faith"...I have faith in God, you might not have Faith in God, but in evolution. You might have faith of being an atheist or a Morman or Budha....this is your choice and my choice too..

Concerning the choice of same sex person's entering a relationship together I don't approve of because of my faith of God's words. But it is not my business to tell people what to do. If asked I will tell them what I believe and if not I will not. It is none of my business to judge them as only God will judge them. They are free to do what they want and I also can't tell the government what to do either, they do what they want to do....I have very good friends that have chosen this lifestyle and I love them dearly, do I approve no, do I judge them, no.

Here are just a few quote's from the Bible about homosexuality, but of course if you don't believe in the Bible, they will probably not mean anything to you, but for those who might have an open ear, you can read them here and many more in the Bible.

Leviticus 18:22 "You shall not lie with a male as one lies with a female; it is an abomination."

Leviticus 20:13: "If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them."

1 Corinthians 6:9-10: "Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters, nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."

--------

As for believing the the world is young or old. I believe it is young, 6000 years. I have found a youtube video you may or may not choose to watch. This man is a chemist and shows you that things are not what they seem. Of course many of you will not believe him, that he is wacko, that is your choice, but how much of what he said can you counter against. I and you will all be judged by God in the end. If GOD really does exist, would you want to be in a new earth with no death, hatred, diseases, etc. or would you choose living in a place that you can't even begin to imagine the amount of pain you will feel for eternity? I choose God...



...like my husband explains to people who have doubts about God.."he says well if there really is no God, you will feel nothing and just be worm poop, but if there is a God and the Bible is true, I sure would rather be saved in heaven for eternity than in heck for eternity...it's your choice, but it's pretty obvious to me!"..can you really take that chance that God, Heaven and heck does not exist?



Blessing to you,

Jenny


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

JennyB said:


> If GOD really does exist, would you want to be in a new earth with no death, hatred, diseases, etc. *or would you choose living in a place that you can't even begin to imagine the amount of pain you will feel for eternity?*
> 
> Jenny


Hi Jenny,

sure glad the things I believe in don't have to threaten and terrorize people into believing in them 

Thanks for sharing your beliefs though. I hope you find peace.


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## JennyB (May 17, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Hi Jenny,
> 
> sure glad the things I believe in don't have to threaten and terrorize people into believing in them
> 
> Thanks for sharing your beliefs though. I hope you find peace.


If your referring to the old Testament, then yes there are a lot of horrible things that happened, but you need explainations of why those things happened....I hope you find your way to Heaven. I will and have already found my peace





Jenny


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

JennyB said:


> I will and have already found my peace


Cool



That's what life is all about.

Just remember that peace you have found if you're ever asked to vote on gay marriage. I'm sure there are a lot of gay people would love to to feel that same peace by being married to the person they want to spend the rest of their lives with...just like you are your husband have been able to do.


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## vickie gee (May 17, 2012)

Jenny,

Thank you so much for your previous postings. As someone who believes in their heart as you do I just wanted to say you did the right thing before this thread gets closed (and no doubt it will). I know that you have "the peace that passes all understanding." Rather than go through words of offensive and defensive maneuvers here you have chosen to walk in the Spirit and because you do the fruits of the Spirit are evident in you.

Galations 5:22-26 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, self-control. Against such there is no law. And those who are Christ's have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires. If we live in the Spirit, let us also walk in the Spirit. Let us not become conceited, provoking one another, envying one another.

The truth is before actually becoming a Christian I used to actually consider myself a Christian because I went to church, was baptized as child, and all the usual things that would make me not fit the bill of "a bad person." But the fact of the matter was that I was no more of a Christian than people who are openly bashing the Bible (and by the way if YOU want to see what a good orator The Father of ALL Lies is you can see it at evilbible.com) .

I am so glad God did not give up on me. Satan had me pretty convinced that I was not salvageable. He lied.

He is a good liar but not good enough to convince me that *I *should support gay life style. I no longer will fall into the trap of believing his lies about adultery and fornication either. I am not giving up my future mansion in Paradise for that. Well, gotta go read some Bible. I tend to get a bit rusty when I let me Bible get dusty. Love ya'll all!


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> before this thread gets closed (and no doubt it will).


I don't think it will be closed. Sure it may be a controversial topic but seems people are just posting their thoughts without getting personal



.

I don't understand, perhaps I'm just so naive and think everyone should love and embrace everyone else, how you can sit back all smug and righteous in being "saved" when you're judging gay people because of your religion.

You do know that in the bible god not only killed but bragged about killing over - ALMOST 2 MILLION 500 thousand. How many did the make believe satan kill....wait for it...TEN, yes 10 just 10 oh and god dared him to do it lol. Not sure who'd I'd be more worried about lol.


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## Jill (May 17, 2012)

Miniwhinny (a/k/a Ozy), did you realize God is a name and should be capitalized? Or do you know it, but are just deliberately being antagonistic to those of faith (again... year after year, post after post)?


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## vickie gee (May 17, 2012)

Jill said:


> Miniwhinny (a/k/a Ozy), did you realize God is a name and should be capitalized? Or do you know it, but are just deliberately being antagonistic to those of faith (again... year after year, post after post)?


*HAY YOU TWO... don't make me pull this car over! *





That was just in case you have me pictured as "church lady" on Saturday Night Live. 



 Laughter is good for the soul! And don't make me right about this getting closed. Maybe it will help some people decide what they support (not to be confused with judging others).


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> *HAY YOU TWO... don't make me pull this car over! *
> 
> 
> 
> ...


lol love it


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## Matt73 (May 17, 2012)

I've been pretty much staying away from this topic for a few reasons:

A: I don't really care what homophobes have to say and am comfortable with myself

B: Gay marriage is legal here (yay, Canada)

C: I don't like the silly religious arguments...they are annoying.

But...I'll give my two cents



. Before I came out at 20, I would go to bed every night and pray to "God" to make me straight. I had a girlfriend. I was trying to please everyone but myself. I am so thankful I ended that relationship, didn't marry her, have kids. Being gay is not a choice. It occurs in many many species in nature. It is normal. Furthermore, I am now so thankful to have been born gay; it has made me more accepting of others...

I live my life by the adage, "do unto others as you'd have done to you". It's very simple. Treat others the way you want to be treated. I think that, if there is a "God", he/she/it would want us to just be kind to each other and help each other. Why do people make things so difficult?! I could go on about the evils of religion....but I'll stop there lol


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## Ashley (May 17, 2012)

Well it is apparent those that are against gays didnt read my post. Its not a life you can ever understand if you havent lived it. I can however swear on the life of my daughter it isnt a life that I have chosen, it was decided for me, and I fought against it for years, and because of society I occasionally try to do so again here and there.

The fact that some people on here, can lump me in with sex offenders, molesters and others of the sort literally makes me want to puke. There is no way I am anything like a child molester.


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## JennyB (May 17, 2012)

<p>



> I don't think it will be closed. Sure it may be a controversial topic but seems people are just posting their thoughts without getting personal
> 
> 
> 
> ...


</p><p> </p>

<p>I think you will find you answers below if you choose to let your mind open or not,  if you choose to stay closed.</p>

<p> </p>

<p> </p>

<div>Why would God order the destruction of men, women, and children?</div>

<div> </div>

<div>"Thus says the Lord of hosts, ‘I will punish Amalek for what he did to Israel, how he set himself against him on the way while he was coming up from Egypt. 3 ‘Now go and strike Amalek and utterly destroy all that he has, and do not spare him; but put to death both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey,” (1 Samuel 15:2-3).</div>

<div> </div>

<div>The Amalekites, who were descendents of Esau, had been longtime enemies of Israel. They fought against Israel at Rephidim (Exodus 17:8). Apparently, they "entertained a deep-seated grudge against them, especially as the rapid prosperity and marvelous experience of Israel showed that the blessing contained in the birthright [Jacob and Esau] was taking effect.﻿"1 They were a constant threat to Israel. Therefore, God said to Moses in Exodus 17:14 “Write this in a book as a memorial, and recite it to Joshua, that I will utterly blot out the memory of Amalek from under heaven.”</div>

<div> </div>

<div>God lawfully has the right to execute judgment upon anyone. The Bible says that all people have sinned against God and are under his righteous judgment. Therefore, their execution is not an arbitrary killing nor is it murder. Murder is the unlawful taking of life. Killing is the lawful taking of life. For example, we can lawfully take a life in defense of our selves, our families, our nations, etc.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>When God authorizes the nation of Israel to wipe out a people, it is a lawful execution due to their rebellion and sin against God. Furthermore, such an extermination can be seen to be merciful by delivering the young into the hands of the Lord and possibly saving their souls by not giving them time to become "utterly sinful".2 Additionally, further generations that would have arisen from the perverse culture, are likewise prevented from coming into existence and spreading their sin.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>Finally, one of the reasons that the Lord is so strong in the Old Testament and orders the killing of people is to ensure that the future messianic line would remain intact. The enemy, Satan, began his attempt to destroy God's people in the Garden of Eden, by also trying to corrupt the world (which led to Noah's Flood), by trying to destroy Israel with attacking armies, and by encouraging Israel to fall into idolatry by exposure to other cultures as well as intermarrying women from those cultures. The result of both the idolatry and the interbreeding would have been the failure of the prophecies that foretold of the coming Messiah which specified which family line the Messiah would come through. The Messiah, Jesus, would be the one who would die for the sins of the world and without that death there would be no atonement. Without the atonement, all people would be lost. So, God was ensuring the arrival of the Messiah via the destruction of the ungodly.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>----------</div>

<div> </div>

<div>If Job was blameless, why did God allow Satan to afflict him?</div>

<div> </div>

<div>Job 1:1 and Job 1:12</div>

<div> </div>

<div>(Job 1:1) - "There was a man in the land of Uz, whose name was Job, and that man was blameless, upright, fearing God, and turning away from evil."</div>

<div> </div>

<div>(Job 1:12) - "Then the Lord said to Satan, "Behold, all that he has is in your power, only do not put forth your hand on him."</div>

<div> </div>

<div>When the Bible says that Job was blameless, it does not mean that he was absolutely sinless.  It means that he was a God-fearing man who sought to do what was right before the Lord.  Job's awareness of his own sins is acknowledged by the fact that he sacrificed animals to the Lord as atonement for his sins in chapter 1.</div>

<div> </div>

<div>As the story goes, the "sons of God", angels, presented themselves before God.  Satan was there and a conversation ensued about Job's goodness.  Satan challenges God by stating that Job will denounce God if afflicted.  God gives permission to Satan to afflict Job.  Of course, Job doesn't denounce God.  So, the question is why would God allow Satan to do this?</div>

<div> </div>

<div>The reason is so that God may be vindicated at His word and so that we might understand that trials and tribulations will come to those who are godly.  In the former, we see the righteousness of God. After all, none are righteous before God (Rom. 3:10-12).  In the latter we see the perfection of Job's faith (James 1:2-4)</div>

<div> </div>

<div>Jenny</div>


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## JennyB (May 17, 2012)

Opps not sure what happened here, but I am guessing your smart enough to read between the html codes...

Jenny


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## Ashley (May 17, 2012)

And I really do think Jill is open to gay people.


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## JennyB (May 17, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Jenny,
> 
> Thank you so much for your previous postings. As someone who believes in their heart as you do I just wanted to say you did the right thing before this thread gets closed (and no doubt it will). I know that you have "the peace that passes all understanding." Rather than go through words of offensive and defensive maneuvers here you have chosen to walk in the Spirit and because you do the fruits of the Spirit are evident in you.
> 
> ...


Thanks Vickie,

It is refreshing to hear someone who has something positive to say about God and the Bible and I am so very happy that you found your way. I also felt the same way growing up, but my husband, Mel and his first wife Dorothy( she passed from a sudden heart attack and we still all miss her very, very much) helped me along to take the right path to salvation. Both Mel & Dorothy were born and raised as Morman's and their children. It wasn't until their daughter took a different path, that they started to look into what was truly right and what was wrong. The whole family, except their son and his family have been saved. They still choose to practice Mormanism.. We don't tell them what to do and don't judge them. We just pray that they will see the light one day soon. We have faith that they will





Blessings,

Jenny


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## ozymandias (May 17, 2012)

Whoa Jenny, that was a long one and to be honest I didn't read any of it because of all the codes you left in



Got a bit confusing lol.

I think to save MB space we'd better agree to disagree lol. What this thread is about is people basing their prejudice towards gays on their religion. It's happening and it's taking away their rights on a daily basis and it's not just their marriage rights it's a whole way of treating them that comes from it. If you can live with yourself and consciously cause pain to another because of your god's book then I guess you must do it


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## JennyB (May 17, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Whoa Jenny, that was a long one and to be honest I didn't read any of it because of all the codes you left in
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sorry about the added html codes which makes it hard to read, but those who wish to read it will read around the html.





Yes this discussion was started about Gay's and their rights. Unfortunately God and the Bible is where the trouble started. I have nothing at all against two people getting married no matter the sex(but God Does!) and you keep twisting around that I do.. I do not believe that the Gay lifestyle is right because of what God has said about this. I am not going to vote for or against Gay marriage or rights. I feel that it is each person's right to decide what they want to do with their life and who they want to spend it with. Again I have told you that I have many Gay friends. I have know and have worked for many Gay people and I found them to be just as wonderful, genuine and loving as any straight people I know. Sometimes better!

I feel that even though the Bible say's that it is wrong, the fact is, is that there are hundreds upon thousands+ of Gay couples in this world. We all have right's in this world and they should too. This is a very sticky subject as is abortion, religion, sex, etc. and it's hard to tap lightly on the subject without hurting feelings. Everyone has their "Right's" to live and voice their opinions, but in the world we now live in, I feel that people must be flexible if we are to live together in Peace...do you see that happening?..I don't!... and because we all have our opinions it constantly getting rattled around into sometimes horrible and deadly things and unfortunately I believe it always will. In the end God will decide. People are very passionate about their thoughts and feelings and that "free will" that God has given us, with the consent help of Satan keeps us fighting with each other from every topic from A to Z.....

This is where I stand on the subject of Gay partners/marriages/rights and I respect Gay people very much...end of story!

Blessings,

Jenny


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## Ashley (May 17, 2012)

Jenny what you are missing is its not a choice. Every gay person will tell you how much they tried to change it, but it doesnt work.

We are made in his image, if it was so wrong then why would he make us this way?

I beleive in God, read the bible and go to church, so its not that I am anti anything.


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## JennyB (May 18, 2012)

Ashley said:


> Jenny what you are missing is its not a choice. Every gay person will tell you how much they tried to change it, but it doesnt work.
> 
> We are made in his image, if it was so wrong then why would he make us this way?
> 
> I beleive in God, read the bible and go to church, so its not that I am anti anything.


Ashley I am not missing the point and I understand what you mean. I am not sure everyone feels that way, but maybe so. Yes God made you and all of us...why this happens I am not sure. I am sure we will all know everything when we are in heaven again. What I meant when I said, "it was your choice", was the right's to feel, do and say what you feel is best in your life, in the world that we live in today. You did not choice to be different than me or your neighbor. We don't know why things happen they just do. I am sorry that you have had struggles in your life and I can't imagine how tough it is to be in a minority and have so many people hating your way of life. Only God knows what is going on and I don't have an easy answer for you. I would just keep on going to church, reading the bible and pray everyday to God for strength and ask for forgiveness. I wish I did have all the answers, but I don't. Just try to be as happy as you can and be the best person "you" can be. (((HUGS)))

Blessings,

Jenny


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## LindaL (May 18, 2012)

I just found this thread this morning and have just read every single post (some of the religious and political "blah, blah, blah" I skimmed over...just because it's all be read before...same arguments, same political BS)...

As almost everyone on here knows I am an openly gay woman. Came out at age 35 after being married to a man for 12 years, having 2 beautiful children and growing up in a STRICT Roman Catholic family where we went to church EVERY Catholic "holiday" (even when we went camping, my parents found a church nearby to take us on Sunday morning). So, I have "been there, done that" on many "straight/religious" levels.

I knew from the time I was a small child that I was "different", but growing up in the household I did, all my thoughts were pushed back and I did what I was "supposed" to do. My attraction for women never changed tho and I finally knew that *I* had to be happy in life by making a VERY difficult decision.

My wife and I lived in Oregon where "domestic partnerships" are recognized. MOST rights automatically given to straight married couples were also given to us, but not all. We now live in Florida where our "piece of paper" means nothing (except luckily the hospital where Deb works does allow "domestic partnerships" for insurance). Our rights that we "signed" for in Oregon do not matter...unless we document it legally by paying someone to write up those documents...why?? Straight married couples do not have to pay anyone to give them the right to see their spouse on their death bed or have legal right to say where they go after death. If I were to die, my parents (NOT Deb) would have legal say in what happens to my body...No matter how "accepted" Deb is, I can not guarantee her that my parents would not "deprive" her as my WIFE her say in my "wishes"....unless I pay to have documents written up.

The whole issue of gay marriage is really a "formality" to how the general public would accept gays/lesbians in public. What I mean is...if gay marriage would legalized in all 50 states, it would be more acceptable to ACT like a couple in public...holding hands, showing affection (NOT talking about groping, making out, etc...), but just acting like most couple act naturally in public. When Deb and I are out in public (unless it is at a "gay event"), we tend to not hold hands or show affection. We mostly act like "friends". It bothers me that I can be in line at a grocery store and see a straight couple affectionately caress their spouse's arm/shoulder/back in a loving way, but people would stare/whisper if Deb and I did it.

I recently read an article about a preacher who would BULLY his own son both physically and verbally for showing any effeminate signs of being "gay". Besides the fact that he is a religious man (and I use both of those terms very loosely), he is teaching both intolerance and acceptance of bullying to his own child. 10 years from now, this child will either commit suicide or become a bully himself for how his father raised him. WHY does either have to happen?? It doesn't if only people would leave religion and politics out of the equation and TEACH acceptance for ALL humans. Why is that so difficult for people to grasp??

The arguments about children being raised in a gay/lesbian household do not stand up either...While my kids did have a father and a mother, a social worker who did home studies on my lesbian household and my ex-husband's straight (he had a new wife) household...said MY household was more STABLE than his....hmmm.... (I know this issue has not been brought up here yet. but I've heard it before). Neither of my kids grew up "gay" because I was (that argument is just silliness)...not that it would matter if they did or not...and both are well-adjusted and accepting humans.

I did not choose to be a lesbian just like people do not choose their race. I love a woman, because my brain is set up that way. God created me...just the way I am. By bringing the religion factor into this makes me sad. I consider myself Christian (not Catholic)...I believe in God, I believe in Jesus...I believe the Bible was written by men whose views were the "norm" back when it was written...the way the world was back then. It is a book "based on facts", but also largely based on the opinions of those who wrote it.

But, I'm not going to argue about religion or politics...The last thing I will say is...I am a HUMAN BEING first...and should be treated as such...gay, straight, bi, transgender should all be a NON-ISSUE...


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## vickie gee (May 18, 2012)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> Respectfully, I disagree.
> 
> First of all, marriage licenses are provided through the State government. So, although President Obama's position is interesting, it really carries no more weight than the Mayor of Detroit saying we should invade Iran. It is news worthy, but nothing has changed.
> 
> ...


I read Dr Taylor's post. I read it again. Sometimes things tend to sink in slow with me. I read it again. I did the same thing with the original post which brought up Obama's recent endorsement. Ok, Dr Taylor made some valid points. Each point had a question in it. I asked myself the answers to his questions. The good doc was not even giving up his personal opinions of gay relationships/religious beliefs. He simply put some food for thought out there.

As far as Obama's announcement about that he had evolved into this personal opinion.... it was strategic. Typically, any politician plans their strategies. I think we could all agree that all of them do. Some of the black people at work have discussed this announcement with me; as they feel let down. These are people who voted for Obama and likely would have voted for Cain this time. You see with them it was all about color. They know it and they know I know it. I am pretty much blunt with them and they are with me and at the end of the day we are still friends and co-workers. I saw disappointment on their faces when I explained to them it was all about receiving campaign $$$$. They saw the same in my face after they told me they were just not going to vote.

Everybody has to live their own life and make their own choices daily. I may not agree with yours and you may not agree with mine. That does not make me uncompassionate and it does not mean you have to share my view nor I yours.


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## Ashley (May 18, 2012)

Jenny you missed my point. Being gay isn't any more of a choice then being straight. In your mind its a choice to act on it, so then it's ok to be gay but I shouldn't act cause on it and be miserable instead


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## ohmt (May 18, 2012)

I find it sad that all i heard when Obama made his announcement wasn't about how it was a step forward, but how it was just strategy, turning a wonderful thing into a negative (sad). First, he already has the support of the majority of LGBT citizens so it gained him little there. Second, his announcement probably lost him a LOT of votes, which is why i am fairly certain he did not say anything earlier. It makes much more sense that it was strategy BEFORE, not after. It doesn't matter anyway, it is congress we should be more concerned about, but i applaud Obama for taking that step that will hopefully get others to follow.


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## Jill (May 18, 2012)

Ashley said:


> And I really do think Jill is open to gay people.


I am. I've never felt gay people choose to be gay, not any more than I decided to be straight. You just ARE the way you ARE, in my opinion.


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## ozymandias (May 18, 2012)

LindaL said:


> It is a book "based on facts".


And sadly one of these facts is the fact that the god of this bible is of the opinion that homoxexuality is an abomination. That's not a gray area statement. "Abomination" is a pretty clean stance and those people like Jenny and VIckie who try to be faithful to it don't have a lot of wiggle room. That's why the gay marriage issue is overwhelmingly coming up against the religious right "no" vote.

I have to make one small comment on the book based on facts statement as this message board so gracefully allows both us to comment on comments



. As someone driven by an unquenchable thirst for scientific truths...I got intellectually lost in the first chapter when the light of day was created four days before the sun was created and flowers, trees and plants were created a day before the sun was created. Just knowing how cold a planet that's not orbiting a sun can be I wonder how plants survived .

The reason is simple. At the time the bible was written the poorly educated people who wrote it didn't know that the light of day and warmth actually originated from the sun, even though it was known that the sun "ruled" the day. That's why they thought it was possible to have life on a freezing planet in space before the sun was made. Because the people writing it didn't know any better. I'm a little confused how an omnipotent being wouldn't know the sun was needed ahead of time though. Ummmmm...makes you think huh?


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## vickie gee (May 18, 2012)

ohmt, you find it sad...because you support gay unions and therefore feel it is a step forward. I understand your feelings since you support gay unions. Clearly we disagree on opinions of whether we support that. But since I like you and often take notice of your posts on horse matters and feel that we should try hard to listen to what somebody is saying I am putting myself in your shoes while I decipher what you have just said. I wish we had a symbol for brain trying to process what eyes have read.












(sincerely trying)

I believe it is a strategy because of the $$$ pouring in from Hollywood, rich people with gay lifestyles, and/or support of it. His announcement lost him some votes and it gained him a lot of money to campaign with therefore will ultimately gain him votes. You say you are fairly sure. If he were playing chess no doubt he would like to keep his opponent unsure. Consider this, the people getting cradle to grave $ from taxpayers were not going to send him any $ anyway and I can tell you from personal experience that not even 20% of the people in my office will vote let alone send a check to support any candidate. Some of them cannot even tell me what precinct they live in or who is running for the local offices. I don't know what Obama really supports in this matter because to be perfectly honest I do not believe anything he says. Politicians have strategies to support their agenda. If I chose to throw in adjectives and nouns concerning Obama for sure *stupid *would not be one of them.


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## vickie gee (May 18, 2012)

Don't laugh at me please but what is LGBT? I would guess lesbian, gay, and those last two I am clueless on.


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## KanoasDestiny (May 18, 2012)

I believe the 'B' stands for Bisexual, and the 'T' is for Transgender.


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## vickie gee (May 18, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> I believe the 'B' stands for Bisexual, and the 'T' is for Transgender.


Ok, thanks. I am pretty sure I know some B's and can't say I know any T's.


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## vickie gee (May 18, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> And sadly one of these facts is the fact that the god of this bible is of the opinion that homoxexuality is an abomination. That's not a gray area statement. "Abomination" is a pretty clean stance and those people like Jenny and VIckie who try to be faithful to it don't have a lot of wiggle room. That's why the gay marriage issue is overwhelmingly coming up against the religious right "no" vote.
> 
> I have to make one small comment on the book based on facts statement as this message board so gracefully allows both us to comment on comments
> 
> ...


For sure lots of things make me think. I think it is difficult to understand *how* Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven without dying and then I realize that it does not matter since God did it who I am I to question *how *He did it. I know the Bible with its 66 books has several authors. Now which ones were poorly educated I do not know. I do know that wisdom and knowledge are not interchangeable. Psalms is one of my favorites.



Please do not be sad for me.


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## Jill (May 18, 2012)

Edit to say -- Nevermind, the question's already been answered


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## susanne (May 18, 2012)

One of many reasons I so respect the Jewish faith is that it is a religion based upon always questioning everything. Anything worth believing stands up to questioning and debate, and is not based solely upon blind trust. Who are you to questions? I say who are you to not use the brain that you credit god to have given you.

Also, we need to remember that there are Christians who are very supportive of LGBT, including the Episcopalian Church (or at least half of it...). Sadly, the Quakers (at least their bigger, more conservative congregations) do not, which shocks and disappoints me, after all they have done for civil rights.


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## ohmt (May 18, 2012)

Agree to disagree






LGBT-lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender

I won't laugh-i didn't know what it meant the first couple times i came across it either


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## ozymandias (May 18, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Psalms is one of my favorites.
> 
> 
> 
> Please do not be sad for me.


I'd never be sad for you



. I'm happy for you. You, Jenny and I couldn't be on more opposite sides of a fence when it comes to religion yet the conversation has remained civil and polite.


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## ohmt (May 18, 2012)

Well i did not even notice my phone took so long to post my answer before! I apologize for being redundant


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## ozymandias (May 19, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> *For sure lots of things make me think*. I think it is difficult to understand *how* Enoch and Elijah were taken up to heaven without dying *and then I realize that it does not matter since God did it who I am I to question how He did it.*


"Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense." Buddah.

There's a reason there are thousands of things in the bible that are completely contrary to common sense and scientific fact...



Question it! You evolved to have the most powerful brain on the planet. If you we're supposed to question things why do you have a brain?

Here's one for you...

"If" there was a worldwide flood that flooded the entire world to 24 feet about the highest point, Mt. Everest, how did THOUSANDS of different stationary corals get from Indonesia/Australia/Japan/The Caribbean/Hawaii etc to the ark? They can't walk, they are tiny polyps. They can't remain in place because 5 miles depth worth of fresh water covering everything would reduce the salinity of the sea so dramatically that they would die within hours from Rapid Tissue Necrosis.

Oh and "magic" isn't allowed as an answer lol.


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## Jill (May 19, 2012)

See, miniwhinny / Ozy, it seems to me "there you go again." I doubt people like their faith referred to as magic. If it were just this thread, I wouldn't really care, but over the years, time and time again, I have seen you as "miniwhinny" ridicule and poke fun at people who do have faith... Topic after topic is appropriated by you for that purpose. If you are really confident and comfortable with your own belief system, or lack there of, why do you want to try and make others feel made fun of or that they should have to justify their religious faith?


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## vickie gee (May 19, 2012)

Oz,

At least you did not bet me a fiddle of gold against my soul.

Jill and Oz,

"_But avoid foolish and ignorant disputes, knowing they generate strife. And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, and in humility correcting those who are in opposition, ....." author Paul _

Take this to mean it would be *ignorant of me to dispute* so I will just escape the snare.


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## Carriage (May 19, 2012)

This is another Liberty issue, I believe. I have seen a few post from this perspective. While they may be opposed to gay marriage in their lives and personally, they recognize that it is a personal issue and that one cannot and should not limit another's Liberty and Freedom. For many, this can be the most difficult concept. to accept. The adage "you cannot legislate morality" is true in the sense that conversion, faith and belief are issue's of the heart. Force and especially coercive force can NEVER change a heart to freedom. Love can and does. God does not use force, does he? Rather he calls, he knocks on the door (As opposed to knocking the door down



), he Loves.and he desires a personal relationship with you and me. It is the depth of that relationship that changes hearts. For me Liberty IS a spiritual issue.

Could we come at it from a different angle? How about we get gov. out of the marriage business period. At the fed level, there is NO enumeration giving fedgov any authority in this realm anyway. As an aside, that "authority" is We the People anyway... That means that it is a State issue. However, I'm not sure it should be a State issue even. I do not need a State "license" (permission) to be happily married. What is the purpose of this license? Who has the most to loose or gain by maintaining control over this issue? Could insurance companies change their policies regarding this issue? Could State laws be changed to reflect a more Liberty minded stance?

I think that we allow FAR to much control, over us, by gov. at ALL levels. It is not their job to control me or YOU, it is one they have taken to themselves as all gov's have done throughout time. I don't need them for a whole lot for sure. Those that embrace Liberty (and understand it) have put on the big girls/boys pants and don't need gov. for much of anything. I can tell you personally that a marriage license don't mean jack to me. Day by day for 25 very blissful years does. Hmmm.. lets see, gov. does nothing to secure me in my many individual, in nature, rights as is their contractual job, yet erodes my rights AND seeks to rule over me in every way that it can.

"Does that seem right to you?" (the bounty hunter in the series, Firefly)


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## ozymandias (May 19, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Oz, At least you did not bet me a fiddle of gold against my soul


Well of course not...a) we don't have souls, we're just bipedal mammals living like all other mammals and b) I'm hanging on to all my gold...it's going up a TON (no pun intended) since I purchased it



.

lol





Question everything. Discriminating against gay people IMO is wrong. I'm sticking by that and that's what this thread is all about. I appreciate the fact that you don't want to think about my coral question...that's your right



Sorry if the challenge to think and question is an area I'm not allowed to go to.

As a side note...went out for sushi last night and our waiter was gay. OMG how come the most handsome guys aren't available in the mass gene pool *grin* it's just not fair! But seriously, this kid (college town - they're ALL kids lol) was such a sweetheart that I couldn't imagine denying him the same happiness and security that my husband and I share. Right is right and wrong is wrong and no religion in the world could entice me to treat a fellow human being differently than I am allowed to be treated.

I admire and care about you Vickie. You are faithful to your beliefs and I appreciate getting to know you.


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## ozymandias (May 19, 2012)

AMEN to that Carriage





You know there's a town in NJ that just launched a fine to anyone caught walking and texting at the same time. My hubby couldn't resist emailing the town mayor...this is his email....HAHAHAHA he's SO bad (he's a christian too)

....................................................................................

*Sent:* Monday, May 14, 2012 10:59 AM

*To:* '[email protected]'

*Subject:* texting

Are you really serious about your citizens not being able to text and walk at the same time. Your citizens need to be in treatment ; that really puts them well below the national average of being able to text and walk. I’m glad you are looking after them. I wish you all the luck. Keep up the good work. Great Law. Doing everthing for the public good what a mayor!


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## ozymandias (May 19, 2012)

http://www.christian...r-romney-74830/


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## tagalong (May 19, 2012)

> And sadly one of these facts is the fact that the god of this bible is of the opinion that homoxexuality is an abomination. That's not a gray area statement. "Abomination" is a pretty clean stance and those people like Jenny and VIckie who try to be faithful to it don't have a lot of wiggle room. That's why the gay marriage issue is overwhelmingly coming up against the religious right "no" vote.


But there apparently is a lot of wiggle room



- as most Christians do not follow all those other Old testament commands, edicts and laws. Why should that one - which may not even have been translated accurately - be held up as Law when many others aren't?

Why are they not stoning rebellious sons to death?

Why are they not putting gays to death? That is what it says in the Bible.

Oh - and never eat any kind of shellfish. Shame on you.

Having a slave is fine.

Beating said slave to death is not... unless the slave manages to live 2 days after the beating in which case the owner who killed the slave is excused. Huh?

If anyone in your family suggests another religion in any way - sorry, you must kill them.

If a rape is committed in the town both the rapist and the victim must be stoned to death. The victim because she did not call for help loudly enough.

If the rape is committed in the country, only the rapist must be stoned.

It goes on and on. I think that clinging to selective Old Testament "laws" while ignoring the majority of them is a poor defense for discriminating against the gay population as many do based on what the Bible says.

The God of the Old Testament is vengeful and bloodthirsty and orders the annihilation and murder of entire tribes/towns. Do we need to follow in that stead? No - of course not.

Things are not black and white but many shades of grey.



> See, miniwhinny / Ozy, it seems to me "there you go again." I doubt people like their faith referred to as magic. If it were just this thread, I wouldn't really care, but over the years, time and time again, I have seen you as "miniwhinny" ridicule and poke fun at people who do have faith... Topic after topic is appropriated by you for that purpose. If you are really confident and comfortable with your own belief system, or lack there of, why do you want to try and make others feel made fun of or that they should have to justify their religious faith?


*Jill*, I do have to comment quietly on your continued miniwhinny "campaign" - for want of a better word.





You really seem to be upset that she changed her screen name - I am not sure what the big deal is. People have changed their names on forums many times - and it was no big secret. Yet you keep referring to it and seem to feel it is indicative of... something. You continue to single her out and "know" she has an agenda of some kind. I have not seen her appropriating topics on any subject in any way - the discussions ebb and flow and take detours and circles all the time - no matter who is involved.

You have had no issues with sneering at/making fun of others in the past - so I confess that I find your "there you go again" comments to be puzzling. You seem to take offense at almost everything she says - so may I suggest that you simply scroll by her posts? Or maybe Mary Lou could get an Ignore button for the forum...


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## vickie gee (May 19, 2012)

Ashley said:


> Jenny what you are missing is its not a choice. Every gay person will tell you how much they tried to change it, but it doesnt work.
> 
> We are made in his image, if it was so wrong then why would he make us this way?
> 
> I beleive in God, read the bible and go to church, so its not that I am anti anything.


Ashley, I read your words and I recall how I used to say almost the same thing to myself. If I change your words gay person to adulteress images of me sitting in the pew literally squirming like a ____ in church fill my memory. And the whole time the choir was singing Blessed Redeemer my mind is singing If Lovin You is Wrong I Don't Want to Be Right. The answer did not come to me overnight. It took a series of pitfalls later to the point I was so low the only direction I could look was up and ask God how am I ever going to survive the disappointments and pain I am going through? Well, I did survive and I now understand His plan. I hope this helps you to see "why would he make us this way?"

God could forcibly prevent people from sinning, but that would not enable us to achieve the potential that He desires for us to achieve. His will is that we learn right from wrong and that we choose to do right without pressure from Him (Deuteronomy 30:19) We must have free will to make those choices; otherwise, we will not develop godly character.

By analogy, people do not break the law when the police are watching. Does that prove that they are good citizens? No, for they are under pressure to comply with the law. We demonstrate good character by obeying the laws of the land when no authority is standing over us. It's similar spiritually. God makes His laws known to us, but leaves it up to us to act on that knowledge.

Working with us in this way requires infinite patience on God's part. Like a wise parent, He realizes that we need the freedom to make mistakes. By analogy, wise parents allow children in their teenage years to make and learn from mistakes, realizing that it is the only way they will learn and develop good character. Of course, parents still give their children guidance, comfort and help; but parents don't control every aspect of their children's lives. If parents are unwise and too controlling, their children never develop the maturity they need to manage their own lives.

Likewise, God the Father does not control our every action. He allows us the freedom to obey—or to sin. God also allowed Satan to be active in this present world, playing upon the weaknesses of human nature and tempting people to make wrong choices (Ephesians 6:11-12; 1 Peter 5:8).

All of these factors serve to strengthen us spiritually, for we grow in strength by resisting the forces of evil.

Has God left us to suffer the consequences of sin without any hope? No, He hasn't. He provided us with a way to obtain forgiveness for sin, through repentance and accepting the sacrifice of His Son, Jesus Christ (Acts 2:38). His plan enables us to develop genuine character at the same time as it provides us with a way to escape the death penalty that sin brings on (Romans 6:23)

We can be good hearted, be honest, be a good neighbor, good friend, charitable, hard workers, be good in all senses of doing nobody any harm and helping those in need. But true believers know that in addition to being a good person they want to be obedient.


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## Danielle_E. (May 19, 2012)

First I want to thank Tagalong for her post, for getting me to put my Big Girl Panties On, lol, from her latest post. I realize it certainly is not the subject that made me basically want to bow-out of the forum again, nor the fact that others have a different point of view. I just finished reading Vickie gee's very well written post and I am absolutely fine and applaud her post even though I may not totally agree with it in the context of the subject. My problem has been with some snide and belittling remarks that come repeatedly from an individual on various subjects if you are not in complete agreement with this person. I do believe that this person may not always see the way this indivual comes across but for me personally it's always a "battle" and I am tired od battles, I do however enjoy respectul debates. Well, after reading Tag's post I thought Danielle just deal with it ;-) and the ignore/block feature is there for a reason... Which is now in place so I can participate without being made to feel like a piece of crap, sorry for the analogy. If at any time I make any of you feel like you don't have a right to your opinion please tell me. My intent is certainly not to do so.


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## vickie gee (May 19, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> First I want to thank Tagalong for her post, for getting me to put my Big Girl Panties On, lol, from her latest post. I realize it certainly is not the subject that made me basically want to bow-out of the forum again nor the fact that others have a different point of view. I just finished reading Vickie gee's very well written post and I am absolutely fine and applaud her post even though I may not totally agree with it i
> 
> n the context of the subject. My problem has been with some snide and belittling remarks that come not only from an individual on her this subject but all other subjects if you are not in complete agreement with this person. I do believe that this person may not always see the way this indivual comes across but for me personally it's always a "battle" and I am tired od battles, I do however enjoy respectul debates. Well, after reading Tag's post I thought Danielle just deal with it ;-) and the ignore/block feature is there for a reason... Which is now in place so I can participate without being made to feel like a piece of crap, sorry for the analogy. If at any time I make any of you feel like you don't have a right to your opinion please tell me. My intent is certainly not to do so.


Danielle,

Thanks for your words concerning me. I was just about to depart from the ship anyhow. Did not want to get involved in the preachin aspect literally just expressed my opinion based on my beliefs and then felt compelled to answer some questions. I don't want to keep anyone from being happy. I vote for whatever I vote for because it is one of the freedoms I exercise. Ok, I depart and (hopefully) leave the rest of the crew in peace.


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## Danielle_E. (May 19, 2012)

I hope you never depart or are made to feel you have to depart. I enjoy very much being able to discuss, even if we may not always agree, lol, what our beliefs are on a subject or our point of view. Hugs Vickie


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## tagalong (May 19, 2012)

> Did not want to get involved in the preachin aspect literally just expressed my opinion based on my beliefs and then felt compelled to answer some questions. I don't want to keep anyone from being happy. I vote for whatever I vote for because it is one of the freedoms I exercise


Never be afraid to state your opinion and beliefs - they are always welcome here. At the same time, you must understand that everyone may not agree with them - but that is what makes a discussion interesting. How dull it would be if every post simply agreed iwth the previous ones!





The "preaching" as you said



may not be my thing and I was driven away from organized religion (mainly by the hypocrisy I saw all around me) long ago - but I always read everything everyone says.

*Danielle* - I did not realize there was an ignore/block feature for the forum - I thought it only applied to PMs! Not that I am going t try it out...


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## Danielle_E. (May 19, 2012)

There is a feature if you click on your name that is showing on the upper part of your screen showing that you are logged in, the feature to " ignore/block" individuals posts in the forums and in private messages. That feature I believe has been around since I became a member back in 1999.


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## Riverrose28 (May 19, 2012)

_Seems we have gone from politics to religion, which we all know if you want to keep friends don't debate either one._ Guess I'll chime back in with my questions and opinions, please don't laugh at me. I do consider myself a Christian, believe me as an older person, I've been to just about every church there is, Catholic, Babtist, Methodist, Episcopalian, Black, free Gosple, Seventh Day ADventist, Pentocostal, pleas excuse all the spelling mistakes have dial up and spell check won't load. Well, just about everything excep Jewish, Buddist, Morman, you get the picture. I've seen people throw themselves onto the floor, speak in tongues, scream, etc. etc. whatever, excuse the phrase. Went to church with someone once that was Babtist, his sister said to me what are you babtisted as, I answered Catholic, she said you worship idols. I said No we may pray in front of an image of a saint, Christ or Virgin, but we dont' worship the statue it is just an image, Sort of like when you kiss and hold the picture of your boyfriend, you don't love the image just the guy. she said No my pastor said all of you Catholics worship idols, so you are pagans. Well I never went to church with her again. She was strong in her belief of what was told to her by her pastor! There was no way I could convince her otherwise. ONe of my daughters married a babtist whos family is really into church, she started going to bible on Wed. and was advised to read the old Testament. I told her it would be more scary then a Steven King novel, she started reading and was scared to death over a vengeful God. Told her so.

IN my opinion I'm a Christian, that means to me, In Christ! Christ was born after the old testament, and his stories are told in the New testament. so my question is this, what testament does it say that being gay is a sin, the new or the old? If it is in the old then it is irrelevent. To Me. Christ was good, great and loved all, and asked us to love our neighbor as ourself, so maybe I need an education on religion.


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## lil hoofbeats (May 19, 2012)

> Question everything. Discriminating against gay people IMO is wrong. I'm sticking by that and that's what this thread is all about. I appreciate the fact that you don't want to think about my coral question...that's your right
> 
> 
> 
> Sorry if the challenge to think and question is an area I'm not allowed to go to.


Always Question! any person or group of people that does not want you to question, wants you to stay ignorant, and that person or group must me eliminated from your life.

Now back to the Gay marriage thing, of course in the bible it says gay marriage is wrong, _*but show me where it says that in the constitution!*_


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## lil hoofbeats (May 19, 2012)

I



> N my opinion I'm a Christian, that means to me, In Christ! Christ was born after the old testament, and his stories are told in the New testament. so my question is this, what testament does it say that being gay is a sin, the new or the old? If it is in the old then it is irrelevent. To Me. Christ was good, great and loved all, and asked us to love our neighbor as ourself, so maybe I need an education on religion.


So if we decide America should be founded on a foreign born Jewish guy who never spoke a word of English and fed and healed poor people for free, and prevented a women form being slut shamed and killed, and chose _*not to conform to either Political or Religious nonsense*_,

Now hey i am all for that!!!! When is America going to start that??


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## ozymandias (May 19, 2012)

tagalong said:


> *Jill*, I do have to comment quietly on your continued miniwhinny "campaign" - for want of a better word.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ozymandias (May 19, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> My problem has been with some snide and belittling remarks that come repeatedly from an individual on various subjects if you are not in complete agreement with this person. I do believe that this person may not always see the way this indivual comes across but for me personally it's always a "battle" and I am tired od battles, I do however enjoy respectul debates. Well, after reading Tag's post I thought Danielle just deal with it ;-) and the ignore/block feature is there for a reason... Which is now in place so I can participate without being made to feel like a piece of crap, sorry for the analogy


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## Danielle_E. (May 19, 2012)

Your correct Riverrose, we have gone from politics to religion. First I was under the impression that Americans felt that the Declaration of independance was of high importance to all and that the separation of government and religion a guarantee, so that is why I am confused. Homosexuality or Lesbianism is not a crime in the U.S. as it is in some middle eastern countries where religion and government go hand in hand and we see some of the results when we see someone executed for this lifestyle.

Depending on which version and which language you read the bible in, the original scripture was in Hebrew and Aramic, we have ended up with various words attributed that are not accurate. So your question about if homosexuality, is mentioned in the New Testament could be a yes in some versions that have been interpreted that way. There is no black or white or cookie cutter answer unless you believe that the version of the bible you read and follow is the only one and is the correct one. I have to be honest that I personally feel that organized religion, meaning, catholic faith, Protestant faith, baptist faith, Muslim faith, Etc, all they do is cause wars, death, discord. I am sure this is not what God wants.

You can not fault those individuals who are reading only one version that their religion adopted as the only way to interpret so they do truly believe that homosexuality is mentioned in the new testament. I am trying to get a better sense of how or why not all versions of the bible use the same terminology or meaning. I wish I spoke Hebrew or Aramic to be able to make a more personal decision. What I won't do is pass judgement .... God is the only judge, not man/woman. That is one thing I do know that most Christians agree on. For me the main commandment given to humankind is LOVE. With love in your heart for your fellow human you keep all God's commandments and I will leave it at that!


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## Ashley (May 19, 2012)

This topic and the path it has ran is the main reason i got this tat.......


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## Jill (May 20, 2012)

Ashley said:


> This topic and the path it has ran is the main reason i got this tat.......


I think you're right on, Ashley.


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## ozymandias (May 20, 2012)

tagalong said:


> But there apparently is a lot of wiggle room
> 
> 
> 
> - as most Christians do not follow all those other Old testament commands, edicts and laws. Why should that one - which may not even have been translated accurately - be held up as Law when many others aren't? Why are they not stoning rebellious sons to death? Why are they not putting gays to death? That is what it says in the Bible. Oh - and never eat any kind of shellfish. Shame on you. Having a slave is fine. Beating said slave to death is not... unless the slave manages to live 2 days after the beating in which case the owner who killed the slave is excused. Huh? If anyone in your family suggests another religion in any way - sorry, you must kill them. If a rape is committed in the town both the rapist and the victim must be stoned to death. The victim because she did not call for help loudly enough. If the rape is committed in the country, only the rapist must be stoned. It goes on and on. I think that clinging to selective Old Testament "laws" while ignoring the majority of them is a poor defense for discriminating against the gay population as many do based on what the Bible says. The God of the Old Testament is vengeful and bloodthirsty and orders the annihilation and murder of entire tribes/towns. Do we need to follow in that stead? No - of course not. Things are not black and white but many shades of grey.


This is a brilliant post that I've been trying to highlight throughout.

It's a very pick and choose situation.


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## Jill (May 20, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> This is a brilliant post that I've been trying to highlight throughout.
> 
> It's a very pick and choose situation.


Don't we all pick and choose when it comes to what we rely on to form our opinions? I think so. Up to and including how we define, and even embody, the quality of tolerance.


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## ozymandias (May 20, 2012)

tagalong said:


> *Danielle* - I did not realize there was an ignore/block feature for the forum - I thought it only applied to PMs! Not that I am going t try it out...





Danielle_E. said:


> There is a feature if you click on your name that is showing on the upper part of your screen showing that you are logged in, the feature to " ignore/block" individuals posts in the forums and in private messages. That feature I believe has been around since I became a member back in 1999.


There is one



. Of all the message boards I visit I've only ever found one person, who I'd label a mentally ill stalker from past consistent behavior, who prompted me to activate it...and it happens to be on this board. I've had the "ignore" button in use for months lol...it's actually pretty funny, no not pretty funny - hilarious, when you see someone having a one way rant and psychological meltdown when you not only haven't responded to them but haven't read one single word they've ever posted lol.





It's a lovely button that I highly recommend


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## Jill (May 20, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> There is one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Gosh. Call me nosey, but I'd be interested to know who you've had on "ignore" for months!


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## ozymandias (May 20, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> There is one
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to add to, from advice I've received. If you do have someone committing cyber harassment/ bullying against you make sure that you or better still your attorney saves everything as an adobe file. It's becoming a crime they are taking very seriously and cyber bullies tent to want to edit their posts after posting. If you use the ignore button make sure you document the date. The only time it wont work is if you leave you page open and they post. Then their reply will show. Otherwise everything is blocked.

When it becomes obvious to even other than you are being stalked...you're building a pretty strong case for harassment. Especially when it's being "allowed" on monitored forum.


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## Sonya (May 20, 2012)

Since the ignore button got brought up, if someone you ignore or block starts a topic, does the thread show on the forum page at all?


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## Jill (May 20, 2012)

I don't know, Sonya, but would be interested to know the answer.

Also, if someone here feels they are honestly threatened or harrassed by another member, vs having a difference of opinion, I'd highly recommend talking to a modetator. One reason the problems do not exist on LB is the great team of moderators


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## tagalong (May 20, 2012)

On other forums, a topic or post started by someone you have on ignore shows up as a very pale/faded name on the left and no avatar - and only a narrow blank bar to the right. You can click on the + in the right hand corner to look if you still want to. I tried it out at another horse forum to ignore vile, pathetic trolls that just post to run their mouths and insult people. Such are the perils of an unmoderated board, but they are easy to overcome!


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## Sonya (May 20, 2012)

Thankyou.


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## Danielle_E. (May 21, 2012)

Okay , this kind of behavior makes me sick, disgusting.

http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.html?hpt=hp_t2#/video/us/2012/05/21/ac-gaddy-rebukes-pastor-gay-rant.cnn


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## ozymandias (May 22, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Okay , this kind of behavior makes me sick, disgusting.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/v...or-gay-rant.cnn


unbelievably disgusting. Humanity at it's lowest - and can't you tell by the way he talks that this is NOT an educated man. It's scary that there are people this hateful "leading" other hatefuls and no one can question them because it's not being "politically correct" because they're doing under the name of their religion. Thanks for posting this Danielle. This is like that christian group that wait at airports for returning troops.

This is a must watch video





My home is a hate free zone. We have raised our family with no racism and no discrimination. Everyone is welcome in our home. In fact as a side note I laughed so hard at one of my sons last Easter. He and his best friend went out for Easter brunch. Sounds normal right...until you realize these 2 best friends are Jewish and Buddhist so neither celebrates Easter lol. But they said the food was good



Anyhow as I was saying...we have raised our kids to love and accept EVERYONE. They don't know what hate is. So imagine my outrage when I was driving my son to school one day last year. He's a christian so we've paid a hecka lot of money for a private christian school education for him, last year he was doing a course on christian apologetics. Can you imagine how horrified I was after raising my son to be hate free, to love and accept everyone when I looked across at his text book that he was reading and it was an entire chapter and how homosexual are sinners and how they are not "normal" and the bible says they are an abomination to their god.

OMG!!!!! Talk about being disgusted! I'd spent my entire life raising this child to be hate free and here was this Christian school filling his head with hate and discrimination. Believe me - I put an end to that pretty quickly lol.

I now have a sign on my door.

All welcome,

religions - leave your hate on the doorstep



Then "welcome"





(JK)


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## Mona (May 22, 2012)

What that "minister" preached is absolutely DISGUSTING!!!





Reverand Gaddy on the other hand, summed it all up VERY WELL in my opinion, explaining to so many that don't realize it, how the "quotes" that people take from the bible to make being gay wrong, are taken TOTALLY out of context!! So BRAVO to him!!


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## Danielle_E. (May 22, 2012)

Your right Mona. This man is more the exception but the problem is he is in a position of "authority" in the church and he truly should not be. It is one thing to believe the bible literally and with various man made interpretations and variances in the translation and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and I respect that totally. We have some wonderful people on this forum such as Vickie, those who get their point across and their beliefs without resorting to this. The scary part is apparently he believes what he said is fine. I have to say when I heard it I had an image in my head when he described of "concentration camps". When I think of Hitler, I think of the devil incarnate and this man who is suppose to be a man of God has put himself in that same category for me with thos horrid words. If he thinks that's fine then I truly think this man needs some psychological help and should be removed as pastor/minister. JMHO


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## lil hoofbeats (May 22, 2012)

isnt it funny how a nation that was founded to allow freedom from religious persecution is now using religion to persecute freedoms?


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## lil hoofbeats (May 22, 2012)

> OMG!!!!! Talk about being disgusted! I'd spent my entire life raising this child to be hate free and here was this Christian school filling his head with hate and discrimination. Believe me - I put an end to that pretty quickly lol.


Thank godness you caught it early before it was drilled in his head. I simply cannot support a book that promotes hatred, violence, and discrimination. I question the morals and ethics of anyone that does!



> All welcome,religions - leave your hate on the doorstep
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awesome! *The only way to be! *

How ironic that one of the biggest threats to life on this planet is the aurgument over who started it!


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## Jill (May 22, 2012)

It's a shame because, while I didn't click the link, I'm sure I know what's being said (I don't want to hear the hatefulness, either) and it's usually the fringe element of EVERYTHING that gives the mainstream element a bad image. People believe what they want, but the God I pray to is about love, not hate.


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## tagalong (May 22, 2012)

That pastor in NC from that CNN clip is an butt. No other way to say it. Locking up all the "queers" and the lesbians behind huge electric fences and letting them all die off as they cannot reproduce?_ What kind of a freaking moron is this guy?_ Where does he think they come from? Only gay parents? No wonder the church took that sermon video off their website... just wow.






ETA: *Jill*, you should actually see the clip. It is sad to know that that kind of hatred and nonsense can be spread from the pulpit.

ETA2: Heh. The auto-censor on the forum turned a s s into butt.


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## ozymandias (May 22, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> isnt it funny how a nation that was founded to allow freedom from religious persecution is now using religion to persecute freedoms?


Wow, what a brilliant quote...that would make an awesome bumper sticker!


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## Jill (May 22, 2012)

Tag, unfortunately I already know the type of thing the video showcases. I don't need to see any more of it. It's sickening from Westboro preaching hate for gavs to Rev. Wright spouting hate of whites.


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## ozymandias (May 22, 2012)

Ashley said:


> This topic and the path it has ran is the main reason i got this tat.......


Oh no...quick get an eraser before you get spotted 

Leviticus 19:28 KJV2000

"You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord".


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## Danielle_E. (May 22, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Oh no...quick get an eraser before you get spotted
> 
> Leviticus 19:28 KJV2000
> 
> "You shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor tattoo any marks upon you: I am the Lord".


Uh huh, BUT you must look at the ENTIRE text before and after  because apparently this was done when people died, they would put "cuttings...." etc as an "idol"..... and of course this was a taboo to the CULTURE at the time.

Yep, Ashley, you are going to heck they would tell you. Good grief.

P.S. I love your tattoo by the way.


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## Danielle_E. (May 22, 2012)

I just finished watching a BBC documentary on Fred Phelps. It is absolutely mind boggling that an individual would hold such power and yet I see that the members of his so called "church" are 98% family, daughters, sons, grandkids, great-grandkids. I read about one of his son's leaving and speaking about the abuse (physical abuse) on his children when they were growing up and his wife. Nothing shocks me anymore and I know there is no help for this family, unless they leave like some of them have but I truly do pray that they can stop this hatred campaign. It is so sad to see a 5 or 4 year old yelling what they are and carrying signs that they don't even understanding the meaning of. It's truly unfortunately that these young children are truly being poisoned, their minds are being programmed to hate "America", to hate "Jews" and I won't write the other disgusting word they constantly use. And to go to funerals of your dead and heroic military personel yelling disgusting things.... they can't be sane, they just can't.


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## ozymandias (May 22, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Uh huh, BUT you must look at the ENTIRE text before and after  because apparently this was done when people died, they would put "cuttings...." etc as an "idol"..... and of course this was a taboo to the CULTURE at the time.


Exactly





This is a book written a long time ago with very little relevance to today like Tag said a page or two back in her post about picking and choosing which parts to obey.

IMO things become racist/homophobic etc when certain parts but not the whole are chosen. Common sense and common decency must prevail


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## susanne (May 22, 2012)

I don't look to pop lyrics for wisdom, but I've always liked this Sting lyric:

"Men go crazy in congregation, they only get better one by one."

Just like packs of roaming wild dogs, the worst of human nature is encouraged and magnified in gatherings of fearful, hateful individuals. My guess is that there are members of that cretin's congregation who disagree, but are afraid to speak up.

Wherever one stands on this issue, it is easy to "sing with the choir," but it takes strength to stand alone. I hope more individuals find the strength to stand for what is right.

The posted video is worth watching for the Reverend Welton Gaddy's counterpoint, proving that not all clergy, even those from more conservative sects, are bigoted or closed-minded.


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## ozymandias (May 22, 2012)

Gives you goosebumps considering this speech was made just before 9/11. Also, thanks to the LB moderating team and everyone participating in this topic for allowing it to continue. Free expression on all sides is what makes us a free nation!



Well said Susanne


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## Mona (May 23, 2012)

> "Your right Mona. This man is more the exception but the problem is he is in a position of "authority" in the church and he truly should not be. It is one thing to believe the bible literally and with various man made interpretations and variances in the translation and everyone is certainly entitled to their opinions and I respect that totally. We have some wonderful people on this forum such as Vickie, those who get their point across and their beliefs without resorting to this. The scary part is apparently he believes what he said is fine. I have to say when I heard it I had an image in my head when he described of "concentration camps". When I think of Hitler, I think of the devil incarnate and this man who is suppose to be a man of God has put himself in that same category for me with thos horrid words. If he thinks that's fine then I truly think this man needs some psychological help and should be removed as pastor/minister. JMHO"


Danielle, I am not sure if I understand you or not, but to me, it sounds like you misunderstood my post. I was sayiong I am TOTALLY AGAINST what that idiot minister SPEWED from his mouth. The Reverand Haddy that I referred to as being a GOOD source of information, was the guy that was being interviewd by the news guy...not the one in the church preaching HATE to the congregation.


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## Danielle_E. (May 23, 2012)

Mona,no I understood exactly what you meant. ;-)


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## Jill (May 23, 2012)

Okay, I went ahead and took a look at the video. Not all of it. I already know the world contains some crazies, and that they do not represent the majority of ANYONE.

But, yeah... he wants to "fence in gays so they will die out."

Did anyone tell him where gays actually come from? As I understand it, they usually come from straight couples.

What a dumb---


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## jyuukai (May 23, 2012)

Hmm, you're right, I did come from straight parents. And funny that, so did my wife! Hmm perhaps he should cage our parents too so that they don't pass on the 'gay gene' either!


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## minih (May 23, 2012)

I quit reading somewhere in the middle. If you want to argue bible thoughts, the bible also states no sin is greater than another. I don't remember the verse sorry that was back in my Lutheran school days.



We are all sinners, who are any one of you to judge another.

How can I call two people who have committed themselves to each other, live good hard working lives, and are basically good people at heart bad? Why should they not be allowed the security that if something were to happen to one or the other that everything they have worked for together is not stolen by family members who did not agree with their lifestyle? Taking everything away from the partner because it happened to be in their relatives name?

Personally I would rather be around a married nice committed gay family than a rightous finger pointing hellfire and darnation person any time. Yes I do believe in God, just not a lot of Christians.


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## ozymandias (May 23, 2012)

minih said:


> Yes I do believe in God, just not a lot of Christians.


Reminds me of a great quote by Mohandas Gandhi although he did not believe in a god he summed it up pretty well.

"I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".

Sadly there are a lot of Christians who use the bible to point their fingers at others....shame they don't realize that when you point a finger at someone there are 3 others pointing back at you.


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## lil hoofbeats (May 23, 2012)

> "I like your Christ. I do not like your Christians. Your Christians are so unlike your Christ".


Aint that the truth!

I have always said, i do not have a problem with Jesus, just his fan club!


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## Jill (May 23, 2012)

lil hoofbeats said:


> Aint that the truth!
> 
> I have always said, i do not have a problem with Jesus, just his fan club!


Oh, please... don't write off all Christians because a handful are misguided. Most are such good, kind, and sincere people. If you look at the FRINGE element of ANY group, you won't like what you see.


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## minih (May 23, 2012)

No Jill but a lot more do not live like Christians than you believe. I like a true Christian that does not go all preachy, I want to see how they live and live it like a Christian. Words are a dime a dozen. That goes for any situation, friends?are they true or just talk it to your face? People talk all the time.


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## Ashley (May 23, 2012)

It is refreshing to see a few on here, there post, and they remind me exactly why I like them. So you guys, thank you!


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## susanne (May 23, 2012)

I love what the Rev. Tom Tate of Rose City Park United Methodist Church (Portland, OR) posted on their outdoor reader board:

"God Prefers Kind Atheists Over Hateful Christians"

.


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## susanne (May 23, 2012)

.

...and this bumper sticker:

Lord save me from your followers

Terri, I agree with both of your posts.

.


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

Ashley said:


> It is refreshing to see a few on here, there post, and they remind me exactly why I like them. So you guys, thank you!


Out of curiosity...(and back to the point of this thread)

Would that be the ones who are obeying the word of God and his bible and discriminating against homosexual people enjoying the same lifestyle we hetero's enjoy?

Or

Would that be the ones who are disobeying the word of God and his bible and not discriminating against homosexual people enjoying the same lifestyle we hetero's enjoy?


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## Danielle_E. (May 24, 2012)

Hey, I am a christian, believe in the bible, not disobeying the word of God as "you will not judge" and believe that homosexual consenting adults have the same rights as heterosexual couples in the eyes of the law and for tax purposes, etc.


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Hey, I am a christian, *believe in the bible, not disobeying the word of God* as "you will not judge" and believe that homosexual consenting adults have the same rights as heterosexual couples in the eyes of the law and for tax purposes, etc.


1 Corinthians 6:9

"Or do you not know that evil men do not inherit The Kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; no fornicators, neither worshipers of idols, neither adulterers, neither sexual molesters, neither males lying down with males".

How about commandment #4? I'm betting you've been shopping on a Sunday or mucked out a stall or made dinner? 




 There can't be many more important rules than the 10 commandments. 

I know why you support gay marriage Danielle. It's because you're a good person



and being the good person you are conflicts with what the bible (God) says you should be doing regarding homosexuals. I highly applaud any Christian who questions the morality and correctness of what the bible tells them to do on many levels and chooses not to blindly obey but to do the right thing. I mean let's face it we're not going to beat slaves, kill people who work on Sunday, stone unruly children to death etc. We're above that for goodness sake


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## Danielle_E. (May 24, 2012)

"neither males lying down with males" which version does this come from, the King James, the ???, or the ?? or the ? Everyone has a different translation AND as I said you have to read in the context it was written no just a few sentences taken out of the ENTIRE message and what surrounds why it was said. Depending, you could think Sunday was the day of rest or Saturday being the sabbath if you are Jewish. What you write about in the last paragraph comes from the old testament and these rules were given to the Israelites as punishment.... yada yada, again you have to read in it's entirety and proper context.


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Depending, you could think Sunday was the day of rest or Saturday being the sabbath if you are Jewish.


So do you completely rest on one given day, Saturday, Tuesday?

Not sure what version that was from...didn't pay attention, sorry. They're all basically similar in their content though.


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

I always thought that both the Christians and Muslims derived their homophobic stance from Leviticus 18:22. but in reality, for the Christians, it comes from the Pauline epistles.


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Being a woman I never get to rest, I am always having something to do for my family


So it's okay to take or leave God's commandments if you have a good excuse (like being a mom)?


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## Danielle_E. (May 24, 2012)

I think God would understand if you had a sick child or grandchild vomiting with the flu, I know I wouldn't go to H E L L for washing bedding and such in a case like that, even though some may say that you must follow the bible to the law and not question, just obey.


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> I think God would understand if you had a sick child or grandchild vomiting with the flu, I know I wouldn't go to H E L L for washing bedding and such in a case like that, even though some may say that you must follow the bible to the law and not question, just obey.


So it's okay if you have a really good excuse or a doctors note?

I find this quite fascinating how a mere human can presume it's okay to break their gods most important non breakable commandments because it's convenient for them that week  I mean if I had (and I do have!) a NO smoking rule in my house then it's a NO SMOKING IN MY HOUSE rule and I don't care if you just got home from the most horrible day of your life...don't bring that filthy thing into my home or your life will change lol. There are certain rules I have that get followed with blind obedience...No smoking, no shoes in the house...never had either rule broken yet and I'm certainly not accepting "but I needed to do the laundry in my shoes while smoking excuse". No wonder there are so many different churches under the blanket of Christianity when you can't even agree on if the gods most important rules are to be followed or not. Sure put the homosexual issue into perspective.


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## susanne (May 24, 2012)

Whatever one's religious beliefs, we were given brains to use, not to blindly follow without thought. Are you faithful, do you truly believe, if you follow without pondering other points of view, refusing to question, blindly trusting what you are told? I greatly respect those who come to their beliefs through questioning, debate and serious consideration. I may disagree, but they have my respect and admiration.


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## Danielle_E. (May 24, 2012)

Sounds right to me, so you are saying the next time my grandaughter is sick and vomiting on a Sunday I just don't clean it up and just leave it till the Monday? Makes perfect sense to me, NOT



Wouldn't the house just smell wonderful, ewww. Well I guess I just throw out the bedding and buy more, that could be a solution. I sure hope we don't all get sick at once, we would be sleeping on mattresses with no bedding, no sheets, no comforters or duvets, oh dear. Winter here gets pretty darn cold ya know, eh! I better buy some of those pjs with feet for the entire family. Won't grandma (me) and grandpa look real spiffy in those, ROFL. Like going back to childhood. They say as you get older you become childlike again


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> Sounds right to me, so you are saying the next time my grandaughter is sick and vomiting on a Sunday I just don't clean it up and just leave it till the Monday? Makes perfect sense to me, NOT
> 
> 
> 
> Wouldn't the house just smell wonderful, ewww. Well I guess I just throw out the bedding and buy more, that could be a solution. I sure hope we don't all get sick at once, we would be sleeping on mattresses with no bedding, no sheets, no comforters or duvets, oh dear. Winter here gets pretty darn cold ya know, eh! I better buy some of those pjs with feet for the entire family. Won't grandma (me) and grandpa look real spiffy in those, ROFL. Like going back to childhood. They say as you get older you become childlike again


HAHAHA, what a terrible thought lol!

Go ahead and change the bed sheets...I sure ain't gonna get my undies in a twist over it. Certainly not going to grill you in heck forever for breaking the Rest Rule too lol.

I'm also putting my vote where my conscience is - for the rights of gays to marry their loved one, just like I married mine


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## ozymandias (May 24, 2012)

Think the gay's are getting her vote?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X1Ck4m9EXeo&feature=related

or this one

http://www.youtube.c...d&v=q3mDLsyn6ns


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## Ashley (May 25, 2012)

Considering I am gay I really doubt its the ones that feel I am the same as a sex offender or child molester.


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## susanne (May 25, 2012)

Wherever the mother and daughters on the Tyra Banks show go in the afterlife would be my definition of he11.


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## ozymandias (May 25, 2012)

susanne said:


> Wherever the mother and daughters on the Tyra Banks show go in the afterlife would be my definition of he11.


HAHAHA makes me so glad there isn't such a place. Imagine the next 50 million years listening to those 3!

Gotta love the crazy lady in the other vid too. Took me ages to realize what "dork siding" was hahaha. Love how she took the money after the camera's left



Those poor children - how that man doesn't get them out of there is beyond me...at least they're not growing up like the Tyra clones though.


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## minih (May 25, 2012)

LMAO I watched that episode of Wife Swap. that woman is totally nuts and is headed to a dark side of her own. LOL It is sad but there are more people like her out there. Her poor family looked like they had been slapped right in the face after they were so happy to have he at home first, I bet they wished they could have sent herr back.

Oh yes, then the hypocrite decided to take the tainted money.


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## ozymandias (May 26, 2012)

Brain vs. half a brain. Scary that half a brain still gets to vote :0

At least there is some good coming from all of this. The religious right wing extremists are finally been seen for the hateful bigots that they are.


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## ozymandias (May 26, 2012)

But of course there's no hope when gay people are infecting innocent animals with gay demons

http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/05/18/former-navy-chaplain-insists-gay-demons-can-infect-animals/


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## tagalong (May 26, 2012)

Wow. That link that Ozy provided is bizarre. Klingenschmitt is an ex-navy chaplain with some very "special" ideas.

Some excerpts... Pakman is the interviewer...



> “The problem is, nobody’s born a homosexual,” he said, explaining that all gay people are converted via “marketing” because the LGBT community “has an agenda” to “repopulate their population by recruiting the children of heterosexuals.”
> 
> Klingenschmitt added that “anyone who’s studied” genetics knows that homosexuality is not an inherent trait, simply because LGBT people aren’t capable of reproducing and passing that genetic trait along. Though Pakman didn’t immediately challenge it, that’s a claim as bizarre as it is untrue, as scientists have long knownhomosexuality can be attributed to genetic traits and many LGBT people have reproduced thanks to the help of platonic opposite sex partners.
> 
> “That’s what this whole marketing scheme for pro-homosexual movement is all about,” Klingenschmitt insisted, reiterating his point about repopulating the LGBT community.





> “So, what you’re saying is, in humans it’s marketing that makes people gay; in animals, it’s the souls of gay humans who have invaded the animals,” Pakman replied. “That makes them gay?”
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Dear lady being interviewed by Anderson Cooper.... you did not do a good job of defending your pastor.


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## weebiscuit (May 27, 2012)

I am a conservative, but I am not a christian and I am not gay. I fully support gay marriage. When someone denies gays the rights to marry, it seems they are telling them that because they were born biologically different we wish to keep them set aside as freaks and not allow them to live their lives the same way we live ours because they are "different."

It is beyond the ken of my understanding how anyone has the right to tell any legal-aged loving couple that they cannot be legally married. I guess it would be the same people who think that instead of being biologically born gay that it's a choice, or a lifestyle. (I hate the word "lifestyle" when it is applied to gays. Being a bull rider, a mountain climber, a socialite, a deep sea fisherman, or a beach bum is a "lifestyle." A gay person no more chooses to be gay than I chose to have hazel eyes).

We have several gay couples in our lives and we feel completely comfortable around them. One lesbian couple lives in Georgia and comes to our home every few years for a few days' visit, and then we go to theirs. My accountant is gay. One of our teacher friends is gay. And a young man I used to go horseback riding with just came out last October, at age 25. When he announced it on Facebook I called him up and said, "I'm glad you finally came out. We all knew you were gay anyway since you were about 7 years old! He laughed and said, "Probably!" He breaks horses and runs his grandpa's dairy farm for a living, and he rides in rodeos. One of my favorite people in the world. And there's just no way that at age 25 he sat in his room one night and said, "I think I'm going to date guys instead of girls!" Nope... he was born that way and we all knew it.


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## Matt73 (May 27, 2012)

That article made me want to laugh and then scratch my eyes out lol. WOW....so scary, some of the people that share this planet with us are....


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## ozymandias (May 27, 2012)

Hey Weebiscuit - it's so refreshing to meet another non xtian, open minded conservative - we're a rare breed but we do exist






To me all of this boils down to one simple common denominator - religion. Everyone in the video's are religious, everyone who participated and who posted on this thread that they are against homosexuality were xtians and basing it on the bible.

IMO If you can take an average human being and brainwash them enough into believing the world is flat, it's 7000 years old (this is the one that amazes me THE most lol) that it was made in one week (plants and things being made BEFORE the sun!) That there was a world wide flood higher than Mt. Everest and that everything from South American Tree sloths to sedentary giant tube worms living around geothermal vents in the deep ocean floor - all got up and walked to the ark. That Eve and her sons regularly had incestual sex because she was the only woman on the planet etc.etc.etc. If you can convince people of that (and this is just chapter one!) despite ALL of the overwhelming scientific PROOF and simple COMMON SENSE to the contrary. The you can very easily convince them that...

Homosexuality is an abomination

and

It's cool to fly planes into buildings yelling "god is great" as you do it!

These are just tiny petty things compared to the death and killing done during the past 2000 years in the name of religion. There is nothing more divisive on our planet.

Had we lived in another era in a different place there have been many, many gods (Greek, Norse, Celtic etc etc) who not only welcomed gays but were in fact themselves gay. It's kind of a shame folks aren't worshiping a different god these days than the one they picked...I like some of the Greek ones who like to party and drink fine wine and have raunchy toga parties





It's not going to change. You're not going to convince people that discrimination of any type is wrong. Even their common sense won't tell them otherwise because the moment they fully believed the earth is 7000 years old - they gave up using common sense.

It's a 21st century witch hunt and homosexuals are today's witches


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## Minimor (May 27, 2012)

Ah, but you're going on the assumption that "7 days" was 7 24 hour days as we have now--in reality, no one know's how long God's days were! For all you know his "day" could have been a million years long. Perhaps when he created "man" it was a neanderthal man and all other of his creations were basic organisms...basic life forms that then evolved into today's creatures. Perhaps Gad shaped the original life forms and then helped them to evolve....or perhaps he simply allowed them to evolve. Perhaps it doesn't have to be creation vs. evolution....perhaps it is some of both.


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## ozymandias (May 27, 2012)

Minimor said:


> Ah, but you're going on the assumption that "7 days" was 7 24 hour days as we have now--in reality, no one know's how long God's days were! For all you know his "day" could have been a million years long. Perhaps when he created "man" it was a neanderthal man and all other of his creations were basic organisms...basic life forms that then evolved into today's creatures. Perhaps Gad shaped the original life forms and then helped them to evolve....or perhaps he simply allowed them to evolve. Perhaps it doesn't have to be creation vs. evolution....perhaps it is some of both.


I understand it must be very hard when you're trying to believe in something for which there is no evidence and long comes every single field of science you can participate in all coming to the exact opposite conclusion backed up with hard facts. I love the "well a day to God isn't like a normal day" argument to try to make the biblical version fit the known facts of how old the earth is just a tiny bit. But if you study the ancient biblical texts, and biblical scholars will back this up, the Hebrew word for "day" as used in Genesis 1 IS the word used for a "normal" 24 hour day. This god claims to have made it all in 7 24 hour days (well 6 as he slept for the last one - must have worn his omnipotent self out )

So this god made plants and trees and fruit etc and left them on a pitch dark freezing cold planet without a sun for over 2 million years!!! Give me a break - that's million years stuff makes the argument ever worse. There's is NO WAY life like that can live on a sunless planet.

Can you tell me how a sedentary colonial coral "walked" from a reef in Micronesia to the Ark (and then back again afterwards)? I'd love an intelligent answer rather than "ohhhh, you're tempting me" *teeth chattering* like I earlier got (chuckle). No, I'm asking you to use your brain instead of blindly believing a bunch of books thrown together almost 2000 years ago by people that didn't even know Mt. Everest existed. I bet if they did they would have changed how much water covered the land lol. Your intelligent Minimor...

"Don't blindly believe what I say. 
​
Don't believe me because others convince you of my words. 
​
Don't believe anything you see, read, or hear from others, whether of authority, religious teachers or texts. 
​
Don't rely on logic alone, nor speculation. 
​
Don't infer or be deceived by appearances."
​
"Do not give up your authority and follow blindly the will of others. This way will lead to only delusion."
​

Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it,
​
no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense.
​
_-Buddha-_
​


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## ozymandias (May 27, 2012)

Minimor said:


> Perhaps when he created "man" it was a neanderthal man


Oh, JFYI. We don't descend from Neanderthal man. There may be a few Neanderthal genes in some of us from a bit of cross breeding - before we, Homo Sapiens, wiped them out. Neanderthals branch off from an ancestor we shared but we do not descend from them


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## KanoasDestiny (May 27, 2012)

Ozy, since you obviously lived a million+ years ago at the dawn of mankind and know everything about it, I would love for you to share with us exactly how and where we came from. From your own personal observation - not from where you have 'read it in books' or 'been told by someone else'.


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## Boss Mare (May 27, 2012)

I am gay. I have lived the straight life and gay life. I was never happy with my pretend straight life..

I didn't choose this life style. I didn't risk the possibility of being disowned by my family just because. My coming out what extremely difficult and devasting for my parents and while they accept my lifestyle now in the beginning I wouldnt have wished what I went through on my enemy.

I wouldn't have chose not to show my affection and love for my partner in public.. I wouldn't have chosen the be hated upon by others for something out of my control.

That being said, gay marriage is not all that important to me. I don't need a paper to be symbolic of my love for someone or to represent unity.

The only reason gay marriage may perhaps intrigue me is for legal purposes. However, there are other alternatives.


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## ozymandias (May 27, 2012)

Boss Mare said:


> I am gay. I have lifed the straight life and gay life. I was never happy with my pretend straight life..
> 
> I didn't choose this life style. I didn't risk the possibility of being disowned by my family just because. My coming out what extremely difficult and devasting for my parents and while they accept my lifestyle now in the beginning I wouldnt have wished what I went through on my enemy.
> 
> ...


I'm so sorry you've been made to feel the way you have by others



I realize Shangri-la is a fictional place but in my never ending desire for global peace I also realize that acceptance starts inside every single one of us (((HUGS)))


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## Ashley (May 27, 2012)

Weebiscit....that actually brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for be supportive of "our kind".

I must say I couldnt agree more with Boss Mare. And there are many of us on this board, but very few of us are actually wiilling to speak up about it because of how things in the past have played out.


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## jyuukai (May 27, 2012)

Oh that's rich, the article about how gays can't reproduce. My wife and I were thinking of starting our family, does that mean we'll be sterile.


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## ozymandias (May 27, 2012)

Ashley said:


> Weebiscit....that actually brought tears to my eyes. Thank you for be supportive of "our kind".
> 
> I must say I couldnt agree more with Boss Mare. And there are many of us on this board, but very few of us are actually wiilling to speak up about it because of how things in the past have played out.


Ashley,

I have been quite surprised just how many folks have come on this thread and felt comfortable enough to say they are gay. If nothing else I hope that those of you who are gay know that you have a lot of people here supporting you


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## Ashley (May 27, 2012)

The ones that have spoke up with the exception of one have for years been known here. That said i know others on here that are that don t care to speak up and its sad that they have been made to feel the way they do.

oh and since I have a biological daughter I guess im not unable to have kids. but i suppose then it will be said that im truelly not gay


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## REO (May 27, 2012)

weebiscuit said:


> I fully support gay marriage. When someone denies gays the rights to marry, it seems they are telling them that because they were born biologically different we wish to keep them set aside as freaks and not allow them to live their lives the same way we live ours because they are "different."
> 
> It is beyond the ken of my understanding how anyone has the right to tell any legal-aged loving couple that they cannot be legally married. I guess it would be the same people who think that instead of being biologically born gay that it's a choice, or a lifestyle. (I hate the word "lifestyle" when it is applied to gays. Being a bull rider, a mountain climber, a socialite, a deep sea fisherman, or a beach bum is a "lifestyle." A gay person no more chooses to be gay than I chose to have hazel eyes).



*You said it very well *


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## tagalong (May 27, 2012)

> From your own personal observation - not from where you have 'read it in books' or 'been told by someone else'.


Ummmm... all of us have "read it in books" or "been told by someone else". None of us were there to make a personal observation. So I guess I fail to see what your point is... ?


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## Jill (May 28, 2012)

I think the point is, no one knows and no set of beliefs should be ridiculed. And if that was the poiint, i very much agree. Like I've tried to say before, tolerance is not a one way street.


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## ozymandias (May 28, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> Ozy, since you obviously lived a million+ years ago at the dawn of mankind and know everything about it, I would love for you to share with us exactly how and where we came from. From your own personal observation - not from where you have 'read it in books' or 'been told by someone else'.


Your point?


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## Minimor (May 28, 2012)

thank you jill that was my point precisely. The people who believe in evolution shouldn't ridicule those who believe in creation any more than those who believe in creation should ridicule those who believe in evolution. It's a two way street but some don't seem to realize that.

I just get tired of the smug superiority and outright snottiness some show on some of these topics.


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## KanoasDestiny (May 28, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> Your point?


 Even scientists disagree about how man came to exist. If someone wasn't there at the beginning of mankind, then they can only speculate (like the rest of us). 
As someone who agrees whole-heartedly with gay marriage, possibly believes in God, does not like "religion", and is iffy about the Bible, I find this thread insulting. The most important point here should be about having respect towards others. None of us were raised the same, or see the world through the same eyes. We all have different opinions, lifestyles, and dreams. The important thing is that we should all be respected for our individuality. How can someone preach the importance of tolerance for one set of people, yet totally redicule and disrespect another group of people?

No one knows with certainty where we came from, or where we're going. The only thing we do know is how we live our life and treat others while we are here. Life should be about being open-minded, tolerant, and respectful towards others - whether they are gay, religious, of a different nationality, or just your everyday oddball.


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## ozymandias (May 28, 2012)

Minimor said:


> thank you jill that was my point precisely. The people who believe in evolution shouldn't ridicule those who believe in creation any more than those who believe in creation should ridicule those who believe in evolution. It's a two way street but some don't seem to realize that.
> 
> I just get tired of the smug superiority and outright snottiness some show on some of these topics.


If encouraging people to think about and research a subject is showing superiority and snottiness then I proudly stand with all the snotty research Universities and labs and top scientists throughout the world.

My entire point in this thread has been that the vast majority of those opposed to gay marriage are opposed based on their bible,,,the same bible that says the world is 7000 years old and there is no evolution. If trying to make a better world for a minority group that is being denied the same rights that I'm not denied, based on nothing more than my sexual orientation, because of people reading this book then I will happily continue. I'm 100% tolerant of those keeping their faith to themselves but that's not what's happening. Take a look at what just happened in N.C. gay rights were slammed there by a 20% margin coming entirely from the Christian right.

100% tolerant of the tolerable





Denying loving, kind, compassionate human beings the same rights you enjoy is IMO wrong and therefore intolerable.


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## ozymandias (May 28, 2012)

KanoasDestiny said:


> As someone who agrees whole-heartedly with gay marriage, possibly believes in God, does not like "religion", and is iffy about the Bible, I find this thread insulting. The most important point here should be about having respect towards others. None of us were raised the same, or see the world through the same eyes. We all have different opinions, lifestyles, and dreams. The important thing is that we should all be respected for our individuality. How can someone preach the importance of tolerance for one set of people, yet totally redicule and disrespect another group of people?


Tolerance is an easy word to throw around. Would you have been tolerant of the KKK? Would you have been tolerant of how our dark skinned friends were treated in the American 50's? There have been issues throughout our history where our tolerance for certain behaviors that are wrong require those offended to take a stance. If religion is consistent and all of it's rules are followed then I can respect that but lets face it...women are allowed to talk in church, people aren't stoned for working Sundays etc etc etc. Yet homosexual rights are denied. Should those of us with a voice who feel it's wrong keep our voices silent? I don't believe speaking up is being intolerant in a case like this





ETA - You're asking me to be tolerant of a religion that is itself intolerant!


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## vickie gee (May 28, 2012)

I chose to leave this ship sometime back but my alter ego swam out and left this.

_Atheist: "What's this fly doing in my soup?"_

_Waiter: "Praying."_

_Atheist: "Very funny. I can't eat this. Take it back."_

_Fly: "Whoo, prayer answered."_

I am so glad that I have a sense of humor, even if it evolved from a sand dune lizard. Neither my religious beliefs or my God given personality would ever make me treat somebody unkind because they are different. It is hard for me to fathom that there are actually people who do not know any gay/lesbian people. I know more than a few. One is a relative. One is a daughter (in fact my favorite of all the daughters) of one of my dear friends. One was (now deceased) a very bright and productive co-worker. I enjoy their company but I do not meddle in their lives. Now if they ask me for an opinion they will get my honest opinion. If the issue here really is whether or not I would vote for gay marriage to be legal it simply is a no based on what I believe. I used to live in an apartment next door to a couple of gay guys. I liked one of them and the other I did not care for. Why? Because one was friendly, fun, and interesting and the other acted ticked off at everything all the time and never spoke to any of the neighbors. Could I live in a state that has made or makes gay marriage legal? Of course, if the state had the things are really important to me. A bunch of environmentalists trying to put the sand dune lizard on the endangered species list would be likely to keep me from choosing a particular state over the marriage issue. I am very comfortable in both how I treat people and how I exercise my vote on any issue period. Gotta swim.


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## ozymandias (May 28, 2012)

Nice one Vickie





I have to say that I admire that fact that you won't vote on the gay issue.

Gays are a minority and as such they could vote for gay marriage until the sky turns pink. That's why it's going to take more than a few of us who are not in their minority group to help people see that denying them the simple legal right of marriage isn't going to being the world to an end. I think by seeing just how many people are supporting it these days shows we are (sorry, no pun intended) evolving





Why did the atheist cross the road?

He thought there might be a sidewalk on the other side, but he wouldn’t believe it until he tested his hypothesis.

How many atheists does it take to change a light bulb?

Two. One to actually change the bulb, and the other to videotape the job so fundamentalists won’t claim that god did it.

An atheist buys an ancient lamp at an auction, takes it home, and begins to polish it. Suddenly, a genie appears, and says, “I’ll grant you three wishes, Master.” The atheist says, “I wish I could believe in you.” The genie snaps his fingers, and suddenly the atheist believes in him. The atheist says, “Wow. I wish all atheists would believe this.” The genie snaps his fingers again, and suddenly atheists all over the world begin to believe in genies. “What about your third wish?” asks the genie. “Well,” says the atheist, “I wish for a billion dollars.” The genie snaps his fingers for a third time, but nothing happens. “What’s wrong?” asks the atheist. The genie shrugs and says, “Just because you believe in me, doesn’t necessarily mean that I really exist.”


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## ozymandias (Jun 1, 2012)

Couldn't believe it! I was traveling yesterday so I woke in a hotel room (yuk) and turned on the T.V.

There's another Christian Pastor spewing gay hate. This one was actually calling for the government to kill them !!!!

http://www2.ljworld.com/weblogs/israel-attacks/2012/may/31/pastor-in-kansas-wants-government-to-kil/


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## tagalong (Jun 1, 2012)

So-called "men of God" preaching hate and murder. Lovely. From *Ozy's* link...



> Knapp went on to read from Leviticus 20: “If there is a man who lies with a male as those who lie with a woman, both of them have committed a detestable act; they shall surely be put to death.”
> 
> “They should be put to death,” Knapp declared. “‘Oh, so you’re saying we should go out and start killing them, no?’ —* I’m saying the government should. They won’t, but they should.”*
> 
> ...


The man should be ashamed of himself and his church - New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kansas - should be ashamed of him.

As should the church (Apostolic Truth Tabernacle in Greensburg, Indiana) who applauded this obviously coached little 4 year old singing... listen to the congregation APPLAUD & CHEER. IMO that is sickening. Oh the irony - there are likely people in the congregation who are closeted gays or who have gay family members...


Are more churches striving to become like Fred Phelps' Westboro Baptist Church? I hope not...

ETA:

It looks like the Apostolic "Truth" Tabernacle is trying to do some damage control... from their website...



> 5/30/12 - The Pastor and members of Apostolic Truth Tabernacle *do not condone, teach, or practice hate of any person for any reason*. We believe and hope that every person can find true Bible salvation and the mercy and grace of God in their lives. We are a strong advocate of the family unit according to the teachings and precepts found in the Holy Bible. We believe the Holy Bible is the Divinely-inspired Word of God and we will continue to uphold and preach that which is found in scripture.


Bolding mine. Oh, the hypocrisy...

ETA2:

And Pastor Knapp is also trying to do damage control now - but not very successfully...



> The Kansas-based pastor who argued that the U.S. government should put gay people "to death" is now defending his statements in an exclusive CNN interview.
> 
> "We punish pedophilia," Pastor Curtis Knapp of the New Hope Baptist Church in Seneca, Kan. "We punish incest, we punish polygamy and various things. It's only homosexuality that is lifted out as an exemption."
> 
> ...


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## ozymandias (Jun 1, 2012)

They're getting good at backpedaling after they get caught with their skivvies down!

Mark down another "God loves me but doesn't love you" Preaching hypocrite.

Sad but nothing new.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Haggard


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## ozymandias (Jun 5, 2012)

This (thanks Tag)

http://www.youtube.c...&v=I7nehgKtJqg#!

is so vile that it breaks my heart and I can only think of it as absolute child abuse. A child that young psychologically isn't yet distinguishing male vs. female gender "roles" so there is no way unless they have been coached (which we all know they were) by an adult that those words would be in their vocabulary. Do you know what type of person this poor innocent child is going to grow up to be? It literally makes me want to cry.

I have a rebuttal...


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## countrymini (Jun 9, 2012)

Just come in on the end of this post. I'm not trying to say anbody is right or wrong, this is just how I feel so please don't be offended.

I _am_ religious and according to scripture God doesn't tolerate 'sodomites', but having said that, it doesn't mean that I hate gay couples or treat them with any less respect than I would a straight person. My son has health issues and our favourite nurse at the hospital is gay.

I just read above about that pastor going off his nut about gays, I understand he has his feelings but what if a gay person was slightly interested in searching the word of God further? The pastor sure put an end to that! The thing is there are a lot of other things that God doesn't tolerate but its always between God and the individual, he didn't give man the permission to enforce his rules. Marriage originated from the bible and is between a man and a woman. I know most gays want the same rights but maybe to get it legalised and finished they could call the ceremony another name, not 'marriage' but still have all the benefits?

In australia its kinda the same as the u.s, think there's one state that accepts gay marriage. But the government recognises gay couples as defacto (which gives them the 'right' to pay more tax).

As I said before, I believe in the creator and that he made Adam and then Eve to be his wife, this is the way he wanted the world to be. _*But*_ this is just my understanding, and I accept other people with their different ways of life, I treat them with respect to their views, because i know they respect mine.


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## Matt73 (Jun 9, 2012)

It's always amusing to me that so many straight people think that all gay men are "sodomites"; Whatever. To each their own...whatever feels good and doesn't hurt anyone else


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## ozymandias (Jun 9, 2012)

Fortunatly Countrymini, you have an intellectual honesty that sadly some of your fellow believers don't have. I personally will not accept any form of racism or discrimination towards any group based on religion simply because some people claim it's taboo to criticise even abhorent injustices if they have a biblical basis behind them. This has been evidenced right here on LB recently when it's been shown that you're wide open for attack simply for speaking up against it.

I think what amazes myself and others is the degree of hypocrisy that these folks live under. It's sad that "faith" can do this to people. People patting themselves on the back that they are Christians and in the next second acting in a degree of nastiness beyond my personal understanding - all because of their religion. When you see it so easily happening here you can see how some of these preachers can get their flock all riled up to behave in the manner they are. All the adults in that church that are applauding that horrendous song that little child is singing - a normal rational mind without the mob mentality going on would/SHOULD be highly offended by such hatred. Yet, there they all are clapping and yelling in support because they're all caught up in the frenzied moment.

I call it hypocrisy because as you pointed out Countrymini "there are a lot of other things that God doesn't tolerate" that people are happy to ignore (stoning, killing, slavery, keeping the sabbath etc) I have a feeling it's because the LBGTQ community is easy prey. No one gets stoned when you single them out - going to Target on a Sunday morning and killing all the employees would draw attention to the absolute ridiculousness of the "command".

For the sake of the intellectual honesty I referred to above I think as a humanitarian it's not only fair but necessary to ask yourself the following questions when you're developing a base for discrimination based on one single book. I'm not directing this to you Countrymini



This is an open question to anyone using a single written source for hatred and so eloquently written by someone with so much more experience than I that I'll almost copy it word for word. The bible is the gold standard for the Christian faith, the Koran is the gold standard for Islam. Both advocate for some acts to be committed that we today as a law abiding nation know are nothing short of disgusting (sadly for millions of Islamic women this message hasn't spread far enough) Ask yourself if there is the slightest shred of evidence that they were the product of omniscience? Is there a single sentence anywhere, on any page, that could not have been written by someone for whom a wheelbarrow was emergent technology? You have to say "no". If there were one mention of DNA or electricity or anything else that would astonish us then we'd have to have a serious conversation about the source of this knowledge for the time it was written.

I think that's why so many Christians are choosing to ignore some of the things their god is asking of them.

Thank god


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## Kaitlyn (Jun 9, 2012)

I just read this thread (okay, not all the way through--I started skimming after everything was beginning to be repeated). I thought that I would add my perspective as a young person who is still forming her opinion on such matters.

I was raised Christian. I am sincerely glad that I "had Jesus" growing up. It was a wonderful thing to believe in, and gave me a sense of security. Because of this, I would never dream of judging others for choosing this. It feels good to be Christian! To put your faith into something so wholly and not have to worry about things such as death and afterlife and the origin of existence. I am now, however, a declared atheist, though I am always interested in learning more and constantly questioning my beliefs or lack thereof. I simply find it too incredulous to believe that I just happened to be born into the "correct" religion--to simply follow the religion you are born into without further examination is not only ignorant but seems extremely vain to me.

I am, on some level, glad for religions. They instill wonderful morals (for the most part) and help to keep society in check. Until they don't. It is when religion starts getting in the way of others' health and happiness that problems arise.

I am a huge believer in the separation of church and state. What the heck does Christianity have to do with passing a law? Nothing! Laws should be passed based on the heath and well being of the country's citizens, not on a personal belief system.

For this reason, I find it appalling that gay marriage has not been absolutely passed as legal in the United States. We are HURTING American citizens by not allowing it to be passed. We would not, on the other hand, hurt anyone by passing the law. Religious people are going to continue to believe what they want regarding the matter, but there are LGBT couples whether they like it or not; handing those couples a piece of paper and allowing them some basic rights aren't going to hurt anyone. It's not as if it will create more gay people--people are either gay or not, no matter whether some law says they may be married in the eyes of the state. Allowing LGBT's to marry WILL, however, help current and future suffering American citizens, and should this not be the ultimate goal of our country?


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## ozymandias (Jun 9, 2012)

Kaitlyn,

I have so much admiration for you



I think it's so admirable that you have been able to use your free will an intelligence and come to such enlightening ideas after living both sides.

I also respect peoples right to believe anything they want to believe as long as it's kept totally out of the lives of others.

This is irrelevant for this thread but here is a very insightful video on the very subject you just covered (being born into the wrong faith) that I think you would really enjoy.



and a P.S. to your having to be religious to have morals. Recent studies done on our fellow ape species have shown that the great apes live in morally run units


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## susanne (Jun 9, 2012)

What thoughtful, eloquent posts by Matt, Ozymandias and Kaitlyn.

Matt, you are a better, more forgiving person than I.


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## countrymini (Jun 10, 2012)

Matt73 said:


> It's always amusing to me that so many straight people think that all gay men are "sodomites"; Whatever. To each their own...whatever feels good and doesn't hurt anyone else


Sorry, ive been misinformed lol, i'll edit my post







ozymandias said:


> When you see it so easily happening here you can see how some of these preachers can get their flock all riled up to behave in the manner they are. All the adults in that church that are applauding that horrendous song that little child is singing - a normal rational mind without the mob mentality going on would/SHOULD be highly offended by such hatred. Yet, there they all are clapping and yelling in support because they're all caught up in the frenzied moment.


Apart from teaching children hatred for other people i'd be moritified if someone taught my child a song based around sexual orientation - gay or straight!.


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## countrymini (Jun 10, 2012)

Thought i'd better read through all the posts from the start - love how some posts verge on politely insulting others (hehe).

Here's my understanding of the 10 commandments: in the new testement it states that they were only for the Jewish nation to be a school master till christ. They do not apply to us now. We are to live by Christ principles, not RULES, principles which are left for us to figure out exactly what each one means to us.

About God creating the world in 7 days and the world being 6000 years old? To believe it can only be through faith in something bigger than us. I researched, thought it out, and chose to believe that there must be something more to life than a quick 70 years of fame which is then forever gone. We were not built with intellect capable of comprehening the physics involved in creation, or the other dimensions that may be possible in this universe.

Anyways, that is TOTALLY off track lol (sorry)


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## ozymandias (Jun 10, 2012)

Never heard that interpretation of the 10 c's before CM



I don't think there's a lot of U.S. Christian's thinking the old ones can be chucked out with the bath water.

"About God creating the world in 7 days and the world being 6000 years old? To believe it can only be through faith in something bigger than us." This is the big one I personally struggle to understand. Guess it's easier for my pea brain to grasp actual real facts than to be able to ignore them and put faith into something completely contrary. It's as hard for me to do that as it would be for me to convince myself the sky is yellow. I can argue facts but I can't argue "faith". I love a good debate but you got me beat on that one





Love and peace


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## countrymini (Jun 10, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> ]
> 
> Love and peace



back at ya





For those christians interested in my interpretation of the why the 10 commandments aren't there for us, read on. (taken from Galations 3, The Message bible)

*9-10*So those now who live by faith are blessed along with Abraham, who lived by faith—this is no new doctrine! And that means that anyone who tries to live by his own effort, independent of God, is doomed to failure. Scripture backs this up: "Utterly cursed is every person who fails to carry out every detail written in the Book of the law."

*11-12*The obvious impossibility of carrying out such a moral program should make it plain that no one can sustain a relationship with God that way. The person who lives in right relationship with God does it by embracing what God arranges for him. Doing things for God is the opposite of entering into what God does for you. Habakkuk had it right: "The person who believes God, is set right by God—and that's the real life." Rule-keeping does not naturally evolve into living by faith, but only perpetuates itself in more and more rule-keeping, a fact observed in Scripture: "The one who does these things [rule-keeping] continues to live by them."

*13-14*Christ redeemed us from that self-defeating, cursed life by absorbing it completely into himself. Do you remember the Scripture that says, "Cursed is everyone who hangs on a tree"? That is what happened when Jesus was nailed to the cross: He became a curse, and at the same time dissolved the curse. And now, because of that, the air is cleared and we can see that Abraham's blessing is present and available for non-Jews, too. We are all able to receive God's life, his Spirit, in and with us by believing—just the way Abraham received it.

*15-18*Friends, let me give you an example from everyday affairs of the free life I am talking about. Once a person's will has been ratified, no one else can annul it or add to it. Now, the promises were made to Abraham and to his descendant. You will observe that Scripture, in the careful language of a legal document, does not say "to descendants," referring to everybody in general, but "to your descendant" (the noun, note, is singular), referring to Christ. This is the way I interpret this: A will, earlier ratified by God, is not annulled by an addendum attached 430 years later, thereby negating the promise of the will. No, this addendum, with its instructions and regulations, has nothing to do with the promised inheritance in the will.

*18-20*What is the point, then, of the law, the attached addendum? It was a thoughtful addition to the original covenant promises made to Abraham. The purpose of the law was to keep a sinful people in the way of salvation until Christ (the descendant) came, inheriting the promises and distributing them to us. Obviously this law was not a firsthand encounter with God. It was arranged by angelic messengers through a middleman, Moses. But if there is a middleman as there was at Sinai, then the people are not dealing directly with God, are they? But the original promise is the direct blessing of God, received by faith.

*21-22*If such is the case, is the law, then, an anti-promise, a negation of God's will for us? Not at all. Its purpose was to make obvious to everyone that we are, in ourselves, out of right relationship with God, and therefore to show us the futility of devising some religious system for getting by our own efforts what we can only get by waiting in faith for God to complete his promise. For if any kind of rule-keeping had power to create life in us, we would certainly have gotten it by this time.

*23-24*Until the time when we were mature enough to respond freely in faith to the living God, we were carefully surrounded and protected by the Mosaic law. The law was like those Greek tutors, with which you are familiar, who escort children to school and protect them from danger or distraction, making sure the children will really get to the place they set out for.


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## Jill (Jun 10, 2012)

I thought some might find this interesting:

*Super PAC launched to support gay marriage Republicans...*<--- link


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## Mona (Jun 11, 2012)

This topic has been closed for getting a little too graphic for our family oriented readers. Please keep this in mind in the future. This definitely crosses barriers of what is acceptable or not, here on LB. (some has been edited and deleted)


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