# Mini x Arabian breedings.



## Lizzie (Sep 21, 2011)

I keep huge files on every Mini breeder I can find. Last week, I came across a site where they readily admit they are crossing Minis and extreme Arabians to get 'the look", and then breeding the offspring back to Minis. I have often wondered where the extreme heads came from in Minis originally. Certainly the ones I used to see 30 years ago, didn't have the dishy heads we see now. Was this cross breeding done years ago? No finding fault here - I love a sweet head, but was wondering now seeing this website, if Arabians were used years ago. Obviously in many pedigrees, we see blank spaces, which again, set me wondering.

Lizzie


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## ruffian (Sep 21, 2011)

It would take several generations to get the sizes back down to under 38". i don't personally know of anybody who is doing that. Shetland's and Arabs perhaps, would make a beautiful pony.


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## Wings (Sep 21, 2011)

I've often been told that there is arab in the heritage of the mini horse. Given the type I see around I'm not suprised!

No problems with it from me, I really want a typey arab pony to use in my own breedings.


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## minisch (Sep 21, 2011)

What is the website?


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## ohmt (Sep 21, 2011)

The most arabian type heads i've ever seen on a mini have no arabian breeding at all-i rarely see honest to goodness arabian type heads on a mini outside of professional pictures though. I would be interested in seeing the results of the arabian x mini x mini. I remember hearing of a farm a couple years ago doing it with some of their horses and surprisingly their horses without the arabian breeding were the ones that won in the show ring.


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## disneyhorse (Sep 21, 2011)

I would highly doubt people are crossing minis with Arabs. People whine enough about having 40" Shetland ponies in minis' backgrounds!!!

The extreme heads you see is a product of selective breeding, not breeding to Arabians. Lots of people like pretty heads, so you see them in most breeding programs.

I think the dishy heads are more Welsh type in background, and not Arabian. Remember, not all horse breeds have straight profiles. Small Welsh ponies will be far, far easier to breed to miniatures and keep background height down. Lots of Shetlands have Welsh breeding, and most miniatures are Shetland in background so plenty of pretty pony heads all around!

Andrea


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## Wings (Sep 21, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


> I think the dishy heads are more Welsh type in background, and not Arabian. Remember, not all horse breeds have straight profiles. Small Welsh ponies will be far, far easier to breed to miniatures and keep background height down. Lots of Shetlands have Welsh breeding, and most miniatures are Shetland in background so plenty of pretty pony heads all around!
> 
> Andrea


I love the Welsh influence in the minis! But you can still use the Arabs, mostly in their pony mixes. And that mix is often with the Welsh ponies


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## Jill (Sep 21, 2011)

I think Rabbitfizz maybe did this once long ago? I think I remember her saying so in a post once.


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## Minimor (Sep 22, 2011)

I agree with Andrea; most of the "Arab type" heads are actually Welsh pony heads, or it was almost certainly the Welsh pony influence that added them to Miniatures in the first place, and then of course people have been selectively breeding for those "Arab heads".

There are certain lines of Minis that are said to have been bred down from full size Arabians way back when. I would imagine that it is quite possible there is some Arab breeding way back there in the background of those certain lines, but do I think it was only Arab breeding that created those horses? No, I'd be very surprised if it were--more likely something to the effect of an Arab x pony cross, which then was bred to another pony cross and so on & so on.

I have heard that there's at least one farm that has used Arabians close up in its breeding program, but do I believe that crossing an Arab x Mini back on another Mini will give an under 38" horse? Not really--and if it happens once it might not happen again on the next mating of the 1/2 Arab and the Mini. And I personally wouldn't count on that Mini (grandson/granddaughter of the full Arab) having Mini sized offspring each and every time. If you've got a Mini with a full size horse that close up in the pedigree, you're likely going to get taller foals from that mini in a certain percentage of breedings.


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## MindyLee (Sep 22, 2011)

I have a mini mare who dose indeed have arab and a throbreed in her background. BUT they are way way way back when someone was trying to make a mini horse. I can see where they crossed a small arab with a small pony, then took the resaulting foal and breed it to another smaller horse and so on and so on. I also noticed that a dwarf is in there as well way back when. In the end, and many generations later, I now own a beautiful little 29" silver dapple mare from that downsizing breeding of a horse to pony to mini.


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## Lizzie (Sep 22, 2011)

And she's lovely MindyLee!

Actually, since short is dominant over tall, careful crossbreeding with Arabs or Welsh, could bring the height down in fairly quick generations. Whether or not they retained all the other attributes of those breeds, might be a bit hit and miss. And no, I cannot (and would not) say who the breeder is whom I found breeding Minis x Arabs currently. I was not interested enough to save the site to my favourites. There again, people breed all kinds of strange crosses and then give them a cutesy name and sell often for big prices.

Lizzie


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## stormy (Sep 22, 2011)

Yes Arabians were used to refine the mini....remember not so many years ago the average Arabian was less then 15 hands, average height 14 to 14.2...not like todays Arabs. I know it was done as I saw it done. Foals were quite small. Much as Trotting bred ponies, with selection of small arabs to start with a couple generations gets them pretty small!


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## Minimor (Sep 22, 2011)

> I have a mini mare who dose indeed have arab and a throbreed in her background. BUT they are way way way back when someone was trying to make a mini horse. I can see where they crossed a small arab with a small pony, then took the resaulting foal and breed it to another smaller horse and so on and so on. I also noticed that a dwarf is in there as well way back when. In the end, and many generations later, I now own a beautiful little 29" silver dapple mare from that downsizing breeding of a horse to pony to mini.


I asked this question of someone (don't remember who it was) before & never got an answer so I will ask you this same question--how do you know there is Arab and Thoroughbred in her background? You say that you can see where they crossed a small arab--where do you get a pedigree that actually lists an Arabian? I'm just curious, because I've never seen a set of papers that lists an ancestor as "Arabian"


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## MindyLee (Sep 22, 2011)

Minimor said:


> I asked this question of someone (don't remember who it was) before & never got an answer so I will ask you this same question--how do you know there is Arab and Thoroughbred in her background? You say that you can see where they crossed a small arab--where do you get a pedigree that actually lists an Arabian? I'm just curious, because I've never seen a set of papers that lists an ancestor as "Arabian"


1ST OFF, I made a mistake, I said arab late last night without lookingf first. NOW actually looking at the paperwork, it was small quarter horses with a thoroughbred. then to ponys, and dwarfs and so on. To me it shows that smaller was the objective at 1st, not conformation, and when hitting dwarfs, bred back up to better the conformation from there. What is scarey here, the dwarf gene was not super long ago but in the late 1950's - late 1970's with Dell Tera Lines.

If the info was documented correctly from previouse owners/breeders and so on, and to me what I have researched has me pretty confident. I googled each horse's name in her pedigree from many other folks websites, many older known breeders which now have either sold out and no longer have websites, contacting people who lead me onto more knowledge, and or any info I could find. I also checked the All Breed Database. Research traces her pedigree back to where her pedigree goes from mini -pony-large breed of horses dateing back to 1960-1924. Im right now looking at all the info I had found and what it says from the very 1st linage documented was started back in 1923 a black stallion quarter horse named Chicaro. Also colors seem to be pretty consistent as well. My mare is either a dappled smoky black/ silver dapple. Most of her pedigree if it says which most do, either say, silver, grey, black, buckskin, and cheastnut. Now Im not saying this is 100% documented, but it sure looks like its pretty close. And minis do and have came from horses at one time or another. Just like when horses where 1st discovered hundreds of yrs ago in fossiles, the _(hyracotheriums)_ was originally tiny and standing as small as a goat with toes, not hoofs. They evolved into bigger with time and then with mans help, back to small as we see them today.

I can say, that I did NOT find any of my horses info in just one visit on the computer. I have searched and stalked many yrs of websites and informations to come up with these findings. I have ran into dead ends and then went back and look elsewhere. I have had this mare since 2005. And still stumble across info, even if its fact or fiction to this day. I just print it and try to figure out where it may or not fit in. I have 8 horses, and out of all of them, I have only found such detailed info on 3 of them. The others, dead ends for now. But I have not put that much time into theirs yet.

I hope this helps a little for ya and gives any of you hope out there. Somewhere info is documented, its just if its facts, or fictions for you to find out. I can say, it has been pretty interesting to find some of this info on my mare. I just wish the my other horses will lead to the same type of info instead of dead ends. Time and research will only tell.


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## Katiean (Sep 22, 2011)

Years ago I had an arab that had gotten out at 1 1/2 years old (before he was gelded) and he bred the resident pony. She was maybe 36" tall. She had a very big foal from that breeding. It didn't even resemble an arab. So unless the Arab is very extreme I do not see where this type of breeding would change the heads.


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## tagalong (Sep 22, 2011)

> I also checked the All Breed Database. Research traces her pedigree back to where her pedigree goes from mini -pony-large breed of horses dateing back to 1960-1924.


Using an all breed database will only mess you up as many names are repeated in assorted breeds. Most minis' pedigrees go back to an Unknown stage many many generations back. They were not registered as anything, anywhere. If through all that you managed to trace your mini's lines direct to one specific stallion, that is quite the accomplishment!

IMO it would be almost impossible to trace one mini's lines back that far just going by names. Arabians, QHs, Thoroughbreds - easy. Minis - not so much. Far too many different strains got in there to be able to follow a line clearly. Plus some of the early breeders - as in, Del Terra - did not keep accurate records and ran multiple stallions with huge herds of mares. They had no real clue who bred who and wrote up pedigrees as they pleased.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 22, 2011)

I agree completely, Tag.

I have done Arab X Mini, Dartmoor X Mini and Welsh X Mini (I just happened to have those breeds



) and I can assure you the height goes down amazingly in the first generation then does not go down very much, ever again, without crossing again and again to the Mini, thus neutralising any other influence.

My 33" Mini on my 14.2 Arab produced a 12.2- I did not go on with this as it was a colt, he was definitely a "pony" _not_ a Miniature Horse.

The Dartmoor was the one I went the furthest with as she was Cream, and a nice pony. She had a 35" Palomino to Rabbit, then a 35" Palomino o/o that mare by a Palomino, then I sold the line off- I breed for under 34", the "overs" have not much value yet in Europe, I am afraid, though we are getting there. This however was ten years ago!

In order to get the height down to under 34" you would have to all but eradicate the outside blood.

Now, I did do a Welsh cross but she was a "B" mare, so the foal made 12 hands- although the one by Rabbit only made 36", but again was a colt so I went no further.I honestly think the way to get more refined Minis is either with European (or Australian) Show ponies- they can be very small- or American Shetlands- you have some beautiful, refined, ponies, use them!

I do not actually believe that the Arab has contributed anything to the Mini.

I have seen 13.2 Arabs throw 16.2 foals, and I have seen a number of tiny (13.2- 14.00) TBs, but, again, I do not think they added anything to Minis, although they are prepotent in our Show Ponies, which are predominantly TB X Welsh.


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## Minimor (Sep 22, 2011)

I agree with tagalong. Too many times the old farms just guessed at the parentage of their foals, especially when it came to which stallion sired a particular foal. Sometimes a breeder would just pull out whichever set of papers suited a buyer the best--it wasn't necessarily the papers that actually went with the horse the person bought. Internet research is great, but one must keep in mind that internet info from 1925 (as an example) was posted to the 'net by someone, and much of that information may only be correct in that one person's mind.

It's easy to say something to the effect of 'this little mare is a granddaughter of old Julie, who I hardshipped into the registry in 1970. Julie was out of a blue roan mare that was sired by my grandfather's half Arab stallion who was out of a Raffles daughter and sired by a TB/Shetland pony owned by Grandpa's neighbor...' Someone can post that on the internet & make it sound very real, but in actual fact it is impossible to prove that the information is true or untrue.

Look at the tales of the Miniature horse having its foundation credited to the royal families of Europe--that is a story that was promoted by some breeders in the heyday of the Mini, when the little horses were being marketed as exotic pets for equally exotic prices. The royalty story was much more marketable than the more realistic "they were ponies that were renamed as horses for the purposes of selling more of them for higher prices than they could get as ponies". Now there are people who will research Miniatures on the worldwide web & come up with those royalty stories, and they insist that Miniature horses have their origins back with the European royalty.


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## Lizzie (Sep 22, 2011)

Katiean said:


> Years ago I had an arab that had gotten out at 1 1/2 years old (before he was gelded) and he bred the resident pony. She was maybe 36" tall. She had a very big foal from that breeding. It didn't even resemble an arab. So unless the Arab is very extreme I do not see where this type of breeding would change the heads.



The f1 generation Katiean, when crossing two completely unrelated breeds, is always hit and miss. Sometimes the offspring resembles one parent or the other. Sometimes neither. This is why it takes so many generations, when making a new breed, for the horses/dogs to breed true. Mostly it takes a ton of horses or dogs, rigid and careful culling and often takes longer than the lifetime of the average human being.

Lizzie


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## [email protected] (Sep 22, 2011)

People may try it but when we're still getting Minis with 5+ documented generations under 34" producing over 34" I'd be terrified of introducing a 12-14 hand 'pony/horse' into the mix.

As Miniature Horses are not a 'breed' so to speak but a height registry still, we haven't been able to consistently control the height after 30+ years of breeding. Is it better yes, but not consistently ALWAYS going to be under 34" or with the B size ALWAYS going to be 34-38".


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## disneyhorse (Sep 22, 2011)

The documented Miniature Horse "breed" is NOT a very old one... it started with the American Shetland Pony book...

And even "way back when" the Shetland Ponies were bred "behind the barn" with Hackney and Welsh ponies... so who knows how honest any accounting for is when a breeder says "Oh, this miniature horse is half Hackeny" or "That miniature horse has an Arabian grandmother"...

Andrea


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## sdmini (Sep 22, 2011)

I was at a show once where standing to go in the ring someone told me the horse they were holding went back to Arabians. We talked about that for a while but I've got to say that horse in no way shape or form resembled an Arabian so other than a conversation starter it's heritage did it no good. I look at most triple registered (ASPC/AMHR/AMHA) minis and they have lost the extreme look that ASPC horses have so to think that you can achieve a _good_ under 34" Arabian mini from a full sized Arabian is rather far fetched. One would be much better off starting with good mini stock and tweaking to their taste.


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## Shari (Sep 22, 2011)

I have had a couple of the Dell Tera Lines .. and they are pure original(back then) Shetland pony. I find Most of the Miniature horses are pure Shetland Island Shetland via the original breeders back when this all started.

Miniature Horse is a marketing ploy that worked well. Many of the breeders of that time, would throw away their Shetland's papers calling them miniature horses and back when they did not have DNA would "say" they bred them down from Arabs, TB to give their breeding credence. Fish tail basically.

One can breed those traditional Shetlands (mini's) over the years and end up with a pretty refined animal... even though they are still 100% Shetland.

Nothing wrong with that.

Now the American Shetland pony... many have some Hackney, Welsh and what not in their lines. So much in my personal opinion, they should not carry the name Shetland.


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## Genie (Sep 22, 2011)

We were recently told of a breeder using a hackney stallion. I guess people will always experiment.


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## JennyB (Sep 22, 2011)

Well as I have said before most all Miniature horses come from Shetland ponies...with that said I do know of a breeder who has successful raised 1/4 Arabian Miniature horses than are 38" and under and some are under 34"...It can be done!..I have seen them with my own eyes 






 

Jenny


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 23, 2011)

I do not want to reduce this thread to an argument but here are a couple of hard facts:

Whatever you see on the Internet, Minis do NOT go back to the Royal houses of Europe. I have looked into this quite thoroughly, using paintings by people like Velásquez as support and there is not one shred of documented evidence to sustain such a theory. They had human dwarfs by the shed load, they had tiny dogs and monkeys- you can see all of these in the charming pictures. What they do not have is Miniature Horses or even dwarf horses, and neither is either of these documented in any menagerie, anywhere.

So, as far as I can see, having been there pretty much at the beginning when JC Williams was exporting our Shetland foals by the boatload to America, the American Miniature Horse is founded on British and American Shetland ponies, possibly, very very possibly, with an influx of Welsh blood- although that was already there in the AmShet.

It is rather as the Min Pin was bred to look like a Dobe- there is NO Dobe blood in Min Pins.

I can see any horse, in any field and say, honestly, that I have seen the animal with my own eyes. That, I am afraid, does not make the pedigree of the animal correct.

There are a couple of ponies floating around England at the moment who are Caspian/Arab/Mini and the size has come down to around 36", and there is at least one who is under 34", with documented pedigree (my own cross was a registered PB Arab) but they do not look like Arabs, there is no visual evidence of Arabian in them, whatsoever. I have seen Minis with a three generation pedigree look more Arabian, even though these little beast are very pretty, and quite, in most cases, correct, they show NO evidence of their Arabian ancestry, which anyway, is so far back as to make no difference.

So if someone shows me an extreme Mini with a dished head and tells me this is due to Arabian influence I just smile at them- they are deluding themselves, I am afraid.

Attributes, unless bred very very carefully, just do not pass on through the generations like that.


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## anyssapark (Sep 23, 2011)

In Australia, we have a "C" category, called "Little Horse". It is for horses up to 42".

There are quite a few people breeding for this category right now, and many are adding welsh blood and getting some nice results.

I have an arabian pony mare here, who i have crossed to my 33.5" stallion, and produced a beautiful colt.

As a weanling, he was a national supreme champion





I will be doing this cross again this season in hopes for a filly


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## Wings (Sep 23, 2011)

I agree with you on the royal house thing. I've never found any evidence myself of that and I've done a lot of digging.

The connection to the small pit ponies holds more weight but the true start seems to be with the English and American Shetlands. But a lot of other things have been added to the mix and declare that there is no Arab at all is also a bit deluded. First people were obssessed with size and then they became more focused on type. To achieve that type they have bred down better, more refined type from horses who had the qualities they wanted. I have met a B class mini with an Arab Pony dam who was sired by a pure Arab, a lovely creature who although would mature over height would then be matched with a complimenting stallion and bred down again. There was certainly Arab very present in that line and the owner held the documented evidence to prove it.


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## Wings (Sep 23, 2011)

Renee that is exactly the type of cross I hope to do hear in the future! Have already picked out the stud I want my future Arab Pony from and the sire





I hope you get your filly next time!


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## minigrub (Sep 23, 2011)

Computer didn't refresh. Asked and answered... Sorry


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## Sue_C. (Sep 23, 2011)

> It is rather as the Min Pin was bred to look like a Dobe- there is NO Dobe blood in Min Pins


Exactly so, and easy to know when you consider the Min Pin is the much older breed.





As for there being no mini horses/ponies of any refinement "back in the day"...I have seen many advertisements in old magazines/flyers from as far back as 1907 which have pictures of very tiny, refined ponies. THOSE animals certainly weren't thick-boned/heavy little pit ponies, as they were pulling little pony traps full of children of well-to-do homes. So somewhere along the line, there were definitely breeders who had been breeding the TINY, well-put up, refined pony...even way back then.


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## Minimor (Sep 23, 2011)

> Whatever you see on the Internet, Minis do NOT go back to the Royal houses of Europe.


No argument from me--I wasn't saying that they DO go back to the Royal houses! I was only saying that there are still some internet sites to be found that DO say they go back to the Royals--and there are people who read those sites and BELIEVE them to be true. I had someone recently argue with me when I commented on the origins of the Miniature horses; she said that she'd found a website that says the Minis came from the Royal houses of Europe and therefore that proved that I didn't know what I was talking about.



I told her of course there were those stories floating around but that doesn't make them TRUE! 
And that was exactly my point--just because it's on the internet, doesn't make it true.


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