# cart size question



## studiowvw (Nov 19, 2010)

Hello

A question from a new member - impressed with all the great info here!

I can't figure out how to upload a picture here and can't find any instructions either (?)

I have a picture of my miniature horse (Lacey, 2.5 yr old, 35 or 36 inches) standing in the shafts of our new cart. It is at my blog at studiowvw.com and can be found by clicking on the "miniature horses" slider at far right. 4th picture down.

Asking for opinions on whether this is a good size for this horse. The shafts are 59" long, which seems a bit long. I could cut them off if necessary.

It needs a few improvements but I have a wooden whippletree to put on it instead of the fixed hooks which are there now. Could also put smaller wheels on it if necessary.

thanks in advance

Wilma


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## RhineStone (Nov 19, 2010)

Welcome to the forum, Wilma. What a beautiful mare!




(And I don't say that about every horse, so you know that is a big complement!)

Your cart does seem a bit long. In order to get a proper measurement for the cart, you need to measure the horse from the point of the shoulder to the point of the buttock, and then add 8"-12" depending on the depth of the basket of the cart. 12" is technically the measurement that we use for big horses, but their baskets don't tend to be as low. I like my horses as close as possible without them hitting their heels on the vehicle. The horse's "longest" gait is the walk, so if she doesn't hit her heels walking, then it will be OK otherwise. (Personally, I think a lot of people have their minis way too far out in front of them in their carts.)

The height of the cart seems good. You will want to add the singletree. You also might want to add something sticky to that seat to keep you in!



That cart looks "easy exit" to me!





Be sure to check the condition of the wheels, such as the spokes for tightness, condition of rubber, etc. Just like they say, "No foot, no horse!" so goes for carts. "No wheels, no cart!"

I don't exactly remember where the photo directions are, but yours are already uploaded to your website, so just right click on the photo, go to "Properties", and copy the address where the photo is. Then paste it into the Insert Image button on the screen where you type a message.

Myrna


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## studiowvw (Nov 19, 2010)

Hi Myrna

thanks for the info - I'll see how much has to come off those shafts





Yes, she is a pretty girl, even with the winter hair coming in.

I will try to post the pic here:






Wow - that worked! Amazing! So simple!

The tires are good, but they look like bicycle wheels instead of cart wheels and probably won't hold up too well. I was thinking a back rest might help too - especially after your image of "easy exit". The last owners said they tried to hitch it to a haflinger, but I doubt that worked. I think it is probably a Shetland cart, but as it was only $60, I grabbed it.

Thanks again for your hints.

Wilma


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## RhineStone (Nov 19, 2010)

studiowvw said:


> The tires are good, but they look like bicycle wheels instead of cart wheels and probably won't hold up too well. I was thinking a back rest might help too - especially after your image of "easy exit". The last owners said they tried to hitch it to a haflinger, but I doubt that worked.


DON'T use those wheels if they are bicycle wheels. They are not made for the sideways pressure a cart gives in a turn and will blow out. There are places you can get replacement wheels, and at that price, you can afford to put the upgrade in the cart.

Yes, a backrest is good. I love mine.

The last owners must not have been too bright to try to put that cart to a Haflinger! That cart is WAY too small for that!


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 19, 2010)

Yup! Too small for a halflinger but I think Myrna is right and it is too big for your mare. It is a bit hard to say for certain as she is angling away from the shafts in this photo and you will be able to measure more accurately with her actually hitched to it but they not only appear too long but a bit too wide as well. If they are metal as they appear to be I would see about getting them bent in while you are getting them cut short. You may also find that they are angled up a bit too much for her and you won't be able to get a good point of draft with them as they are. You will be able to tell once you have her hitched and while you sit in the cart have someone feel under/lift the saddle to see how much weight is on her back - should be only about 5 to 10 pounds. She IS a cutie!


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## RhineStone (Nov 20, 2010)

Lori is right, too. I didn't think last night about width. When you cut the shafts off, you will probably have to bend them in some. You should have about 2-3 inches on each side of the horse.

Lori, you have to see the photos on Wilma's website for the "cleaned up" shots of the mare. The "fuzzy" picture is nice, but her clipped shots are beautiful. She is not an "exotic" mare, but I really like her structure. (I don't really care for exotic horses anyway. They remind me of psycho Egyptian "Feed 'Em 'n Lead 'Em" Arabians. I have performance bloodline Arabs that have a brain and aren't so exotic.



)


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## BBH (Nov 20, 2010)

Please don't use bicycle wheels or have soneone look at those to make sure they are not bicycle wheels. You need to make sure you use cart wheels and they have the right bearings etc.


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## Renee (Nov 20, 2010)

Could someone tell me what the standard shaft width (at the front, where it is smallest) is for a miniature cart?

Thanks!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 20, 2010)

studiowvw said:


> I have a picture of my miniature horse (Lacey, 2.5 yr old, 35 or 36 inches) standing in the shafts of our new cart. It is at my blog at studiowvw.com and can be found by clicking on the "miniature horses" slider at far right. 4th picture down.


Wilma, what a LOVELY girl!!



Wow. I would never have believed she was only 2.5 from those photos and it's obvious she's going to have a lot of power when she gets older. She's got good bloodlines too!

It was a little hard to tell from those photos as she was backlit but I'm pretty sure she's not a silver buckskin. I have one and neither the silver gene nor the cream gene result in the head remaining dark along with the legs. What she does appear to be is the even rarer silver bay roan! A friend has one of those and it's a stunning color in both winter and summer coat (and looks just like your girl.



) She'll be so flashy in harness!



studiowvw said:


> I think it is probably a Shetland cart, but as it was only $60, I grabbed it.


For $60 I would have grabbed it too!



What a find!

I think it will be quite appropriate for Lacey if the shafts are narrow enough and you take a little bit off the tips. Normally the folks on here don't recommend hacking off shafts at the front end but for this particular cart it seems to be a good option. Once you've made all your modifications it should be a good working cart.

Please promise you'll post pictures of Lacey when she's driving! I think we all want to see her.





Leia


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## studiowvw (Nov 20, 2010)

Thanks for all the good info. I was wondering whether the bicycle wheels would be ok, but I guess not! I didn't think about the side pressure.

I too thought trying to hitch a haflinger to that cart was not the brightest move





Thanks for the nice comments on my filly.

Here is the pic of her spiffed up for the show we went to:






I got her from Mary Ann Bartkewich in Manitoba last spring. She said Lacey was not really a flashy mover, but had a nice calm nature.

However, I find that she moves quite nicely when she's having fun running around, so that was a bonus.

I agree that the exotic look is not my favourite and I'm very happy with this little girl's pretty proportions.

Wilma


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## studiowvw (Nov 20, 2010)

Oops, Leia, we posted at the same time.

Interesting question on what colour she is. Silver buckskin seems a little odd to me and she definitely looks like a roan when her hair is grown out.

Mary Ann says Lacey's dam's current filly foal is a red roan.

She is at http://www.miniaturehorses.ca/2002_foals.htm and is about the 7th one down. Mother is Lucky Hart's Silver Lace.

Pretty cute too!

Wilma


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 20, 2010)

Hmm, interesting! If this is her dam:






...this is her sire:






...and this is her sister:






...what is she?

Mom does look like a silver buckskin as her head isn't particularly dark in her summer coat but this year's foal is clearly roan which must have come from mom since dad appears solid black or black bay. Sire and dam both must carry red to have produced this year's foal. Mom has also produced palominos with this sire so we know that unless he's a smoky black she must have cream; however she doesn't appear to be a regular blue-, bay- or buckskin roan so perhaps she does carry silver. If so it looks like Lacey got the silver, agouti, black, roan, and maybe red and cream. She'd be a fun one to test!

It occurs to me to wonder what a silver palomino looks like. I guess since red hides silver it probably looks exactly like a regular palomino! How annoying.





Leia


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## RhineStone (Nov 20, 2010)

I was thinking Silver Bay Roan when I saw her the first time, too. We had one. Here he is (this photo doesn't do him justice. He was much straighter than it looks here). He didn't have as much roaning as Lacey, and in the winter, he looked solid like a completely different horse. This is mid-spring, when he wasn't entirely roaned out yet.






Here he is as a baby:






He's also the one that ran away with me in the cart his first time in the outdoor arena. He was VERY stoic. He completely changed my thought process about training minis, and helped me realize that there are a whole lot of minis out there that have their handlers completely buffaloed, including me; that they really aren't as well trained as people think they are. He confirmed for me that horses stop with their brains, not their mouths. He was running bolt blind. He is probably the biggest reason that I am completely skeptical of some mini owners' thought processes about training ("Oh, he's really calm. He drives just great, went right off..."



). I'm glad that I was as experienced as I was when it happened, because in the wrong hands, it could have been a trip to the hospital.

Ok, back to the regularly-scheduled topic...





Myrna


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## RhineStone (Nov 20, 2010)

Renee said:


> Could someone tell me what the standard shaft width (at the front, where it is smallest) is for a miniature cart?


My mini carts range from 17" - 19". My 17" is for my A horses.

It should be wide enough that the horse can move around a bit in the shafts, but not so much that the tugs are pulled out far from the saddle. It is also helpful if the back part of the shafts is wider so the horse can bend. For example, it should measure 17" at the tugs, not the whole width of the shafts.

Myrna


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 20, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Lori is right, too. I didn't think last night about width. When you cut the shafts off, you will probably have to bend them in some. You should have about 2-3 inches on each side of the horse.
> 
> Lori, you have to see the photos on Wilma's website for the "cleaned up" shots of the mare. The "fuzzy" picture is nice, but her clipped shots are beautiful. She is not an "exotic" mare, but I really like her structure. (I don't really care for exotic horses anyway. They remind me of psycho Egyptian "Feed 'Em 'n Lead 'Em" Arabians. I have performance bloodline Arabs that have a brain and aren't so exotic.
> 
> ...


I actually knew who this filly was, coming from Mary Ann's, and REALLY like her



considered her for myself at one point as I really like both her sire and dam. Her sire, Bobby, is smoky black, carries the cream gene, as he has produced palominos with mares that are not dilute. I don't believe Lacey, the dam, is dilute - I believe she is silver bay roan. Mary Ann is not great at colours



which she admits.


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## Renee (Nov 20, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> My mini carts range from 17" - 19". My 17" is for my A horses.
> 
> It should be wide enough that the horse can move around a bit in the shafts, but not so much that the tugs are pulled out far from the saddle. It is also helpful if the back part of the shafts is wider so the horse can bend. For example, it should measure 17" at the tugs, not the whole width of the shafts.
> 
> Myrna



Thanks!


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## studiowvw (Nov 20, 2010)

Yes, I was wondering about width of the front of the shafts too. I think it will have to be bent in a bit, also the shafts seem to be bent upwards, so I may try bending them down a bit. We tried sitting in it today and it seemed to have pretty good balance.

I don't have a harness yet, so it'll be a while before I get pics of her hitched





Wow, I had no idea there was so much to know about colouring! Here is a pic of her in her full winter coat last winter before I got her - it is a pic that Mary Ann sent me when I was inquiring about her.






I wondered why that wouldn't be called palomino! But then she shed out and was definitely silver and had the dark leg areas, also some dark in her mane and tail. Silver bay roan sounds pretty cool! Wonder what colour a foal would be off her?

Lori, that is interesting that you were considering her! (I must say although I had reservations buying online without seeing her - YIKES! - she turned out to be exactly what I wanted and I love her personality.)

I put a short video of her on YouTube where I am line-driving her in her halter, you can see how cute she is in her mannerisms.

It is at


It is only about a minute long.

Wilma


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## Minimor (Nov 20, 2010)

Having seen Lacey's dam in person I would say that she is a silver buckskin--the roan is not obvious (at least not to me) but she must be a roan to be producing roans--her sire is a bay roan. I have foal photos of Lacey on my old computer, not on this one--when I saw her as a foal she did look like a silver buckskin, not a silver bay. However, in the photo Mary Ann has on her sold page, Lacey does look like a silver bay roan.

Lori--I can't place Bobby's palomino foals out of non-dilute mares--who are some of them? The only dilutes I can recall Bobby siring are out of Fem and Silver Lace, both of whom I would say are buckskins. Bennie is a smokey black--he has sired a number of palominos out of non-dilute mares and of course is sired by a cremello so we know he carries the creme gene.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 21, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> Her sire, Bobby, is smoky black, carries the cream gene, as he has produced palominos with mares that are not dilute. I don't believe Lacey, the dam, is dilute - I believe she is silver bay roan. Mary Ann is not great at colours
> 
> 
> 
> which she admits.


Well, technically Lace is still a double dilute in that case as both roan and silver are dilution genes just like cream.



I do wonder what is keeping the color off her head though- silver bay or silver buckskin roans should still have dark faces!







studiowvw said:


> Wow, I had no idea there was so much to know about colouring! Here is a pic of her in her full winter coat last winter before I got her - it is a pic that Mary Ann sent me when I was inquiring about her.


Ohhhh yes. She's silver bay roan- no question! She's a textbook example.







studiowvw said:


> I wondered why that wouldn't be called palomino! *But then she shed out and was definitely silver* and had the dark leg areas, also some dark in her mane and tail. Silver bay roan sounds pretty cool! Wonder what colour a foal would be off her?


Silver is a funny thing. It doesn't refer to the silver color of the body (only silver buckskins actually _are_ a silvery color) but to the tell-tale pattern of dilution it causes. Black horses with the silver gene are a pewter or brownish tone usually with a white mane and tail and silver bays look a lot like flaxen chestnuts as their black manes and tails are diluted to a silvery white and their legs diluted to almost their regular body color. Silver buckskins for some reason manage to keep their darker manes and tails but instead of having black points they are a chocolate brown color and the golden body is diluted to a silvery tone. At least some of them are- that color has the most variations I think I've ever seen on a double dilute! Perlinos are always going to look one particular way, same with smoky blacks, etc., but silver buckskins can be anything from the above to a strange tawny color all over including yellow manes and tails. It's a weird shade! The giveaway with Lacey was the fact that her head remained a dark body shade along with her mane, tail and legs. That's the hallmark of a true roan.



Her "silver" body tone is actually the roan at work. Where you see the silver gene is in her mane, tail and legs.

She could produce a lot of different colors depending on what you bred her to. The baby could inherit none of the dilution genes and be a solid black, chestnut or bay. If it got the roan gene it could be a blue, red/strawberry or bay roan. If it got silver but not roan it could be a silver dapple, normal looking chestnut or silver bay. If it got both like mom it could be a silver blue roan, silver red roan (would look just like a normal strawberry roan) or a silver bay roan like Lacey. Then you throw in the sire and the baby could add appaloosa, pinto, or another set of dilution genes to the mix!



Turbo's dam is a silver dapple, his sire a buckskin minimal pinto, Turbo is a silver buckskin with not a spot of white and his full brother from this year is a black and white pinto.



Mini colors are amazing!



Minimor said:


> Having seen Lacey's dam in person I would say that she is a silver buckskin--the roan is not obvious (at least not to me) but she must be a roan to be producing roans--her sire is a bay roan. I have foal photos of Lacey on my old computer, not on this one--when I saw her as a foal she did look like a silver buckskin, not a silver bay. However, in the photo Mary Ann has on her sold page, Lacey does look like a silver bay roan.


Do you know what Lace's dam was if her sire was a bay roan? If she wasn't a buckskin, palomino or smoky black then we'll have our answer.

This is fun! I can't wait to see the videos of Lacey when I get home.

Leia


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## studiowvw (Nov 21, 2010)

Ok, I think I understand now:

the silver bay roan has silver points (mane, tail, legs, muzzle)

a black bay has black points

(?)

So what colour stallion should Lacey breed to in order to stack the odds for a blue roan?





BTW I think her dam Silver Lace is gorgeous.

Wilma


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## Minimor (Nov 21, 2010)

> Do you know what Lace's dam was if her sire was a bay roan? If she wasn't a buckskin, palomino or smoky black then we'll have our answer.


Leia, Silver Lace's dam, Lucky Hart's Miss Pinky was, I believe, a dilute....actually looks like maybe a double dilute, which means that her daughter Silver Lace would have to carry one creme gene....making her silver buckskin, not silver bay.

Here's an old cached page showing Pinky's photo: Miss Pinky


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 21, 2010)

Minimor said:


> Leia, Silver Lace's dam, Lucky Hart's Miss Pinky was, I believe, a dilute....actually looks like maybe a double dilute, which means that her daughter Silver Lace would have to carry one creme gene....making her silver buckskin, not silver bay.Here's an old cached page showing Pinky's photo: Miss Pinky


Oh, yes indeed. Grand-dam is definitely double creme gene so silver buckskin roan it is! Wow! No wonder her head doesn't appear dark- silver buckskins have silvery heads anyway, so where the roaning stops isn't obvious because her head is already almost the same color! That explains the mystery nicely.








studiowvw said:


> Ok, I think I understand now:
> the silver bay roan has silver points (mane, tail, legs, muzzle)
> 
> a black bay has black points
> ...


Well, sort of. A silver bay is a bay horse with _diluted_ points. The legs do not turn white or silver, just lighter.

A regular bay is red with black points while a black bay is a bay horse with such a dark body color that they look almost black with a little bit of brown or reddish color at the flanks, elbow and around the mouth. Genetically however they are both bay- black bay is simply a different shade of the same color just as a chestnut can be light blonde with a flaxen mane and tail or so dark they look brown.





So to try and lay Lacey's color genetics out as simply as possible (ha!)...

1) Basic color: Black or red?

*Fact: Black is dominant.*

*Fact: Red-based colors like chestnut, strawberry roan, etc. will only happen if there is no copy of the black gene.*

Conclusion: Since your mare's sire and dam are both black-based colors but have produced red-based foals (a recessive trait) we know they are each heterozygous for black. Since Lacey is a black-based color she must have gotten at least one. If she got two, one from each parent, she cannot ever produce a red-based foal.

2) Is she black or bay?

*Fact: Bays are black-based horses who carry the agouti gene. Agouti is limited in its scope and does not work on the points so they remain black.*

Lacey apparently got the agouti gene from her mother, which washed the black base out to bay.

3) Creme or no creme?

*Fact: Creme gene on a black horse creates smoky black, on a bay creates buckskin, and on a chestnut makes a palomino.*

*Fact: Getting two copies of the gene intensifies the effect, creating a cremello from a chestnut base, a perlino from a bay, and a smoky creme from a black.*

If Lacey's sire is a smoky black then he carries creme. Her dam is a silver buckskin, which means she also carries creme. Lacey did not get either creme gene so she is only a bay and not a buckskin or perlino.

4) Silver or no silver?

*Fact: Silver is hidden by red, meaning a red-based horse (a chestnut or diluted or modified chestnut) will not show that they have the silver gene at all although they can pass it on to their offspring.*

*Fact: Silver works all over on black-based horses, diluting the points as well as the body.*

Lacey got her dam's silver gene which washed her black mane/tail out to a whitish color and dulled her black legs to a dark reddish brown only a little darker than her body. Her palomino and red roan siblings may have also gotten the silver gene but we can't tell by looking at them as red hides silver.

5) Roan or no roan?

*Fact: Roan is a coat color modifier that mixes white hairs into the body but not the head or lower legs.*

Lacey got the roan gene from her mother, causing her body to look pale during the summer and adding that odd whitish undertone to her winter coat. Her mom has this too but since her silver buckskin coat is already almost white you don't notice it. Roans usually look solid colored as babies as Myrna's horse did so nobody saw it then, either.

So Lacey can pass on black, possibly red, agouti for bays, silver and roan but not creme as she doesn't have it. If she did she'd be a silver buckskin roan like her mother.



studiowvw said:


> So what colour stallion should Lacey breed to in order to stack the odds for a blue roan?


She _could_ produce a blue roan with any other black-based horse but your best chance is with a homozygous blue roan stallion. If he's homozygous for black the foal will be black-based for sure and if he's got roan as well the baby has a 75% or 100% chance of being roan depending on whether the sire is hetero- or homozygous. The less other color genes he has, the less chance the baby will get something other than roan and black! There's already a 50/50 chance with each foal that they will get Lacey's silver in addition to the roan, or silver instead of the roan. It's also 50/50 if the baby will get her agouti and end up a bay roan instead of a blue roan. Good thing silver dapples, bay roans and silver bay roans are all gorgeous! A silver dapple roan (black with silver and roan) would be really unusual.

Leia


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## studiowvw (Nov 22, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> So to try and lay Lacey's color genetics out as simply as possible (ha!)...
> 
> .....
> 
> Leia


Wow - thanks for laying all that out. I'd better keep it for future reference if I decide to breed her down the line sometime. It would be fun to track what happens colourwise.

Ok, I read it several times. I MAY have understood it.

I hope there's no test on it



(Sadly, I would fail!)

Are you a journalist or a scientist?

Wilma


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 22, 2010)

Just an interested student of color genetics. That and harness fitting!

Leia


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