# Guilty by association



## LowriseMinis (Sep 24, 2008)

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/worldnews/...ar-crashes.html

http://elections.foxnews.com/2008/09/24/re...til-last-month/

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/09/22/us/politics/22mccain.html

http://washingtonindependent.com/7169/mcca...till-last-month

Thoughts? Opinions?

Mine are this: If we are going to hold Obama guilty by association, we need to apply the same rules to McCain and Palin. An influential person in Palin's life led a witch hunt. He prayed over her in part to PROTECT her from witchcraft. And McCain? Apparently he lied to us, pretty hard.


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## Minimor (Sep 24, 2008)

someone who hunts witches vs. someone who takes part in acts of terrorism? Well, a terrorist is a terrorist, but someone who hunts witches is just a little fruity IMO. I think a witch hunter could be rather entertaining. A terrorist? Not so much.


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## Danielle_E. (Sep 24, 2008)

I hope you are ready for the tirade that is going to be unleashed on the links that you posted. Shouldn't be long now.... I hear them coming





Added: Yep, someone beat me to posting this, posting at the same time. Now why am I not surprised



.


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## CyndiM (Sep 24, 2008)

Ok I'm going to ask ..... just how is a minister who she saw ONE time is a problem? It is not the same as attending his church for 20 years!! He visited her in Alaska for pete's sake she didn't go seeking him out!

Now I will admit I did not read every word of the last article in the Washington Independent but I did read the other two and enough of the third to wonder how did McCain lie hard?

Davis has NOT received a pay check or ANY form of royalties from his firm since 2006. As I understand the articles, the money was paid as a retainer to the law firm which is not unheard of nor uncommon and the law firm represented Fanny and Freddy.

So my question is what is so terribly offensive that these articles point out? McCain has NOT accepted any contributions from either of them. Can Obama say the same?


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## Danielle_E. (Sep 24, 2008)

WOW, is that a fact?? Obama is a terrorist you say???? Oh please!

Hey Matt!!! Did you know our Prime Minister has links to the mafia






and the Queen is a transvestite


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 24, 2008)

Well, Palin gives partial credit to Muthee for becoming Governor. She clearly thinks quite a lot of him. And really, is a witch hunt your idea of fun? This man targeted a woman in a community, threatened her with violence, turned a community against her, and eventually drove her out. Frankly, that sounds awfully close to terrorism to me.

There's a few more links on the deal with McCain's campaign manager, but here's what I'm getting: McCain said a while ago that this guy hadn't received money from Freddie Mac in years. Turns out he was getting money from them until 2006, and has been receiving 'dividends' until last month (edited to make a correction).

http://afp.google.com/article/ALeqM5jDU0fm...5vCcK8__sIXm_4g

http://www.latimes.com/news/politics/la-na...0,4139198.story

http://alternativetulsa.blogspot.com/2008/...manager-on.html

I expect an onslaught, and that's fine. I want people to know about these things, I want to know what people think!


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## CyndiM (Sep 24, 2008)

I did not read anywhere that she *gave* him *any* credit. And could her remark have been one of those off the cuff remarks that was jokingly made?

It STILL doesn't put her in HIS church for 20 years or in HIS house as a friend or boss/co-worker (reference Ayers a known terrorist). And in Africa witchcraft is still taken very seriously. NO, I don't practice it but I do believe witchcraft exists.

Why is it the man's law firm, can and did take money but, have very openly said HE did not receive any money from them since 2006 that you don't beleive? Once again the articles you point out say right in them he has NOT received a paycheck since 2006. So what are you pointing out?


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## Minimor (Sep 24, 2008)

Who said Obama is a terrorist? Not me, I was referring to his buddy when I said "terrorist".

And yeah, there are witchhunts all over the place; as long as no one was actually burned at the stake...I'm afraid that falling back on a kafuffle over witchhunting is about as pathetic as the witchhunting itself.

You know, this reminds me. Heard from a friend down south the other day and she brought up something I hadn't thought of. She pointed out that there may be factions...named two groups...that may have serious issues if Obama were to get elected as President. I admit that I never gave a thought to just how badly both of the named groups might take that. Would they really go that far?





Oh, and lowrise...sure, a witchhunt is probably just about as much fun as incest is funny. gee, just think about what the funny people at SNL can come up now with the witch stuff!


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 24, 2008)

"The New York Times, quoting anonymous sources, reported that *Davis Manafort, run by Davis, was paid 15,000 dollars a month by Freddie Mac from 2005 until as late as last month*, adding up the payments to a total of 500,000 dollars.

Davis has said he took leave from his company in 2006. *But he remains a shareholder and receives dividends.*

According to The New York Times, F*reddie Mac continued to pay the company, believing that Davis, as McCain's campaign manager, would be in a good position if his boss were elected to the White House.*"

Does anything about that sound ethically unsound to you? Anything at all? With Davis receiving 'dividends' from Freddie Mac, do you really think he has been or will continue to be impartial about the bailout and economic issues?

In regard to Palin and Muthee:

"In video footage of the speech, she is seen saying: “As I was mayor and Pastor Muthee was here and he was praying over me, and you know how he speaks and he’s so bold. And he was praying “Lord make a way, Lord make a way.”

“And I’m thinking, this guy’s really bold, he doesn’t even know what I’m going to do, he doesn’t know what my plans are. And he’s praying not “oh Lord if it be your will may she become governor,” no, he just prayed for it. He said “Lord make a way and let her do this next step. And that’s exactly what happened.”

She then adds: “So, again, very very powerful, coming from this church,” before the presiding pastor comments on the “prophetic power” of the event."

The video link:

 (the last half of the video is goofy, the first half is Sarah Palin speaking)
And I found this little bit on Palin's most recent, regular pastor: http://www.thenation.com/blogs/campaignmatters/355545


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 25, 2008)

Minimor said:


> Oh, and lowrise...sure, a witchhunt is probably just about as much fun as incest is funny. gee, just think about what the funny people at SNL can come up now with the witch stuff!






Minimor, have I ever said incest is funny?

Personally, I'm seeing a very Monty-Python-esque "A WITCH!" sort of sketch, but that's just me. Again, the difference is this guy HUNTED A WITCH. As far as we know, there is NO REAL INCEST in the Palin family. Quick review of fact vs. fiction.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 25, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Muthee

A bit on Muthee from Wikipedia:

The Witch-hunt of Mama Jane

Muthee and his wife returned home to Kenya from Scotland, where he had finished his graduate studies, in 1988.[3][4] They soon felt that they were "called by God to Kiambu" and after six months of prayer, research, and "spiritual mapping," they came to believe that a witch known as "Mama Jane" was the cause of crime and spiritual oppression in the area.[1][3][4][5][6] Muthee alleged that "top government and business leaders [were] afraid to do anything without her approval," that at least one person per month would die in a car accident in front of her "divination house" (otherwise known as Emmanuel Clinic), and that she harassed his congregation.[3][4][7] According to Muthee, soon after his followers began to pray that God would either save or oust Mama Jane,[3][4][7][8] three young people died in another apparent accident in front of Mama Jane's clinic.[3][4][7] The angry townsfolk wanted to stone her in retaliation, and when the police entered Mama Jane's home to intervene, they were apparently startled by what they believed to be a demon and shot her pet python to death.[3][4][6][7][8] Mama Jane was then questioned by police, after which she left town.[3][4][8] Since then, Muthee has frequently referred to his witch-hunt as an example of successful spiritual warfare.[6]

The event was depicted in two videos by George Otis, Jr.,[9][10] in which Muthee claimed that the crime rate in Kiambu dropped drastically after Mama Jane left.[1][3][5][7][11][12] However, Workgroup "Back to the Bible," headed by Pastor Rien van de Kraats of Kamperland, Netherlands, found no police reports or any other sources that backed up this claim.[12]

Wasilla Assembly of God

Muthee has visited the United States repeatedly, delivering ten sermons at the Wasilla Assembly of God in October 2005, during which he prayed over Sarah Palin, who was running for governor of Alaska at the time.[8][13] He returned to the Wasilla church for the weekend of September 20 - 22, 2008.[13][14]


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 25, 2008)

CyndiM said:


> And in Africa witchcraft is still taken very seriously. NO, I don't practice it but I do believe witchcraft exists.


Witchcraft may very well exist, and I understand it's taken seriously in Africa. Parts of Africa are also know for civil and human rights violations out the wazoo. Blood diamonds, mutilation of female genitalia, inter tribal and civil warfare, poaching...some of these issues are common and even totally allowable in Africa. Does that make them right? If someone were to come here from Africa and start shouting on the street corner that we need to cut off certain areas of our daughters to keep them faithful to their husbands, would that be okay? I don't think it would be.

So I don't see how it's not a big deal that this guy LED a witch hunt.


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## CyndiM (Sep 25, 2008)

Just because Freddy was* hoping* he could get a favor from McCain, or anyone for that matter, doesn't mean a thing. I could put out there you were going to do me a favor but that doesn't mean you have to or you will.





Also there is NO proof that he has received dividends from his company. Also dividends could be more shares not money. Who has access to his banking or stock accounts to be able to say he has been getting these 'payouts'. So what if he remains a shareholder there is nothing wrong with holding shares in a company. At least I didn't know it was illegal. When anonymous sources speak out I wonder what they are hiding from. Show your face and give me some proof. I don't want rumors.

It also sounds like Davis will have nothing to do with a bail out unless somehow he has been elected to the senate or congress over night.

The man came to Alaska she did NOT seek him out!



Big difference. If a minister prayed over me and then something big and wonderful happened to me afterwards I would be quite happy and pleased and would be inclined to think the minister's actions helped. Also because I do believe in God and His miracles I would also believe this minister's praying and laying his hands on me did help.

What is the big deal about a few sentences she said? Obama says, "Just words, Just words......."


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 25, 2008)

Cindy, a quick tangent and after your reply I'll get back to my main point. What do you think of Palin's pastor, Larry Kroon, who said the following, among other things:

""And if Zephaniah were here today," Kroon bellowed, "he'd be saying, ‘Listen, [God] is gonna deal with all the inhabitants of the earth. He is gonna strike out His hand against, yes, Wasilla; and Alaska; and the United States of America. There's no exceptions here -- there's none. It's all.'"


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## AppyLover2 (Sep 25, 2008)

I find it interesting that you're now questioning "Palin's pastor" when, at least twice that I know of, you've dodged any discussion of the relationship between Obama and that disgusting excuse for a minister he supported for 20 years. I really kept expecting someone to attempt to justify that association but since everyone ignored it I guess even Obama supporters can't find anything positive to say about it. In my opinion there's no comparison between the two.



> ""And if Zephaniah were here today," Kroon bellowed, "he'd be saying, ‘Listen, [God] is gonna deal with all the inhabitants of the earth. He is gonna strike out His hand against, yes, Wasilla; and Alaska; and the United States of America. There's no exceptions here -- there's none. It's all.'"


Maybe he was just doing it for laughs and didn't expect anyone to take it seriously...or maybe that's just what he does.


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## CyndiM (Sep 25, 2008)

Well considering I am reading only a portion of his speach I will refrain from commenting about it.


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 25, 2008)

If you follow the link I posted, there's a full transcript.

Now, here's the point I want to make.

Obama's got some questionable associations. So does Palin. So does McCain. We have little evidence that McCain or Obama have ever acted in questionable ways. That is less true with Palin. However, the majority of this board wants to hold Obama accountable for the actions and positions of people he worked with or learned from-actions that in some cases happened decades before Obama even knew these people. If we insist on doing that, we should treat the other candidates and their questionable associations just the same.

At the end of the day, I don't care if Palin's pastor said that God wants to wipe America off the face of the Earth. I don't care if Obama's pastor thinks that America acts as though it is higher than God. I have seen nothing from either candidate that tells me they totally share or desire to act on those words or those beliefs.

If Palin starts hunting witches or if Obama starts accusing the white man of inventing AIDS, then I'll start caring about their religion.

I am far more concerned with the new news on McCain and Davis-if nothing else, this seems pretty fishy to me, and much closer to an actual 'issue' than "There are crazy people leading churches!"


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## Jill (Sep 25, 2008)

These loose relationships hold no candle to a deep relationship with a former terrorist (Obama / Bill Ayers) nor to two decades of looking up to an anti-American racist (Obama / Rev. Jeremiah Wright).

I appreciate the attempt to make it seem as if Palin and McCain maintained the same level of despicable friendships, but happily, they did not.


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## Minimor (Sep 25, 2008)

> Minimor, have I ever said incest is funny?


Same difference, you were one that was staunchly defending SNL for joking about it--but never mind, youre just not getting it about what I'm saying so never mind!
I simply haven't the time to read all those links. How do you ever manage to hunt them all up, never mind just read them?? Some day when I have nothing to do perhaps, though by that time it will likely be 6 elections in the future and there will be a whole different set of candidates to get the dirt on.


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## Cathy_H (Sep 25, 2008)

That in NO WAY compares to someone sitting in a church pew for 20 years and then claims to not really know his spiritual advisor................... Having married a retired Air Force man we have attended several churches during our 21 year tour. It does not take one very long to know from whence the minister is coming from........


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 25, 2008)

I have time to find and read these links because I make time. While I'm online chatting with friends, or playing a game, or working on lesson plans I have a few different windows open, and every now and then a TV going in the background though I don't watch much of it. Friends and family know how important politics is to me, so if they come across something I haven't seen yet, they'll send it to me, too. I'm also a quick reader, I guess.

Me, I just can't stand not knowing what's going on.

Speaking of links, I was just linked to evidence that McCain has ties to organized crime-both through himself and his wife's fortune.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2008/01/25/m...to_n_83251.html

"A top political adviser in Sen. John McCain's presidential campaign helped arrange an introduction in 2006 between McCain and a Russian billionaire whose suspected links to anti-democratic and organized-crime figures are so controversial that the U.S. government revoked his visa."

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1976954/posts

"John McCain's personal fortune traces back to organized crime in Arizona, through his father-in-law, according to a report published by a multi-news agency team called Investigative Reporters and Editors Inc."

Few other links:

http://journals.democraticunderground.com/leveymg/385

http://mikepiperreport.com/Articles_Archiv..._Mob_Money.html

http://prorev.com/2008/08/mccain-story-med...t-told-you.html


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## Jill (Sep 25, 2008)

Did you hear the new Gallup poll, regarding Barack Hussein Obama's _former_ lead?






Obama and McCain are now tied





I think the more people see, the more they find out about close ties with a former terrorist (Obama / Bill Ayers) and mentorship from an anti-American racist (Obama / Rev. Wright), plus the leadership McCain has just demonstrated... the clearer it all becomes


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 25, 2008)

You mean the leadership McCain displayed by jumping the gun on delivering the 'bi-partisan' message he and Obama hadn't quite hammered out yet, or the leadership he displayed by deciding he can't handle doing two things at once?

Personally, I want my President to be able to multitask.


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## Jill (Sep 25, 2008)

And your choice can. Look at all he did with Acorn


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## SunQuest (Sep 25, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> If you follow the link I posted, there's a full transcript.


Why not quote it here? Why make us go to a different source over what has been taken out of context in your own quote!



> Kroon, the senior pastor of the non-denominational Wasilla Bible Church in Wasilla, Alaska, used the book of Zephaniah as his reference point for discussing "that great day of the Lord, when God will finally bring closure to human history... a day of wrath." According to Kroon, *"all things and all people"* are going to bear the brunt of God's "intense anger." "There's anger with God," he proclaimed. "He takes sin personal."
> Kroon placed Zephaniah in a modern context, warning that the sinful habits of Americans would invite the wrath of God. "And if Zephaniah were here today," Kroon bellowed, "he'd be saying, ‘Listen, [God] is gonna deal with *all the inhabitants of the earth.* He is gonna strike out His hand against, yes, Wasilla; and Alaska; and the United States of America. There's no exceptions here -- there's none. It's all.'"


These two paragraphs appear next to each other in the article in the order I quoted them. Note the bold words that I bolded! It tells us that ALL are going to pay for their sinful habits. Typically ANY church of ANY religion will typically say these types of things concerning sin as defined by that particular church. Yes, ALL SINNERS will pay a price in the end. He was stating the the USA was not an exception.

No comparison with what was written in that article and Obama who associated with a person for 20 years, or for Obama claiming a person is their mentor and then to turn around and say that they didn't know that person very well. None at all.

Further, I don't blame Obama for his paster's words. Obama can't control what another person says (nor should he try... Freedom of speech needs to be protected!) What I blame Obama for is the lack of forsight to see his paster for who he really is. If Obama can't see a snake as a snake after knowing them for 20 years, then how will Obama know the true ememies of this country whom he has probably never met? I can't trust him to safely lead us through trouble when he can NOT see trouble before things get bad.

GOOD GREIF!!!!


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## littlesteppers (Sep 25, 2008)

SunQuest said:


> LowriseMinis said:
> 
> 
> > If you follow the link I posted, there's a full transcript.
> ...


NILA!!!!!!!


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## littlesteppers (Sep 25, 2008)

The partnership between Ayers and Obama is about much more than the number of occasions on which the two were recorded together in the same room. As CAC board chair, Obama was essentially authorizing the funding of Ayers’s own educational projects, and the projects of Ayers’s radical allies. And especially in CAC’s first year, Ayers was largely in charge of the process. One of CAC’s own evaluations notes that during 1995, CAC was a “Founder-Led Foundation.” That is, Ayers was not merely an ex officio board member that year, but as the key founder and guiding spirit of CAC, he was effectively running the show.


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## HorseMom (Sep 25, 2008)

Minimor said:


> someone who hunts witches vs. someone who takes part in acts of terrorism? Well, a terrorist is a terrorist, but someone who hunts witches is just a little fruity IMO. I think a witch hunter could be rather entertaining. A terrorist? Not so much.



Frankly I'm appalled. Witch Hunts are still very serious today, people still die. Even here in the United States. Look into the case of the West Memphis Three. 3 teenage boys accused murder because of their interest in witchcraft not 15 years ago that are currently in Prison, one on death row. I'm sure those boys (now men) don't think its so entertaining.

There have also been many instances of witch hunts that resulted in the victim commiting suicide just to get away from it. Again right here in the US.

I myself have had to put up with quite a bit. Granted no one has threatened my life but its still hard to walk into work knowing that your co-workers hate you just because of your choice of religion.

Heather


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