# overpopulation



## maestoso (Dec 2, 2007)

If the breed is overpopulated, it is overpopulated . . . . . and IMO that means that the person who breeds one or two foals a year is just as at fault as the person who breeds 10 or 20. The person who is breeding quality horses is just as at fault as the person ho breeds pets. If you think that the problem is a big one(which I would say is more than 75% of this forum) then I'd say you should stop breeding all together. Because when you say "The breed is over populated, stop breeding so much" in one thread, and then "My mare is due this month" in another, that makes you a hypocrite, plain and simple! Its not exactly logical for you to preach to someone else not to breed, and then tell everyone about the pregnant mares you own.

IMO the problem is not that there are too many minis, so I have no problem with people breeding sound and healthy horses, keeping stallions, or selling for low prices.

I think the problem is owners who make bad choices and can't care for their animals, or owners that neglect or abuse their animals. That's why there are so many horses in shelters, that's why there are so many cruelty and neglect cases. Breeding less horses is not going to keep these people from owning minis, so the problem would still remain, even if you cut the equine population in half. What many people here anticipate as the result of less breeding is that all the good homes will still have their horses and the bad ones won't, the bad ones will be where the difference comes from. This just isn't true and makes no logical sense what soever.

Let's say everyone gelds, so now unfit owners don't have access to stallions to breed their unsound mares to, well they still want a horse. So instead of breeding one they buy a cheap pet mini or adopt from a shelter. Well they are still unfit owners, so now instead of breeding a mini and being an unfit owner they buy or adopt one, and now they bought or adopted one which will likely eventually end up back in a shelter or sold cheaply again, to another unfit owner.

It is not the mini horse that is overpopulated, it is the STUPID, UNEDUCATED, ABUSIVE, NEGLECTFUL, AND IGNORANT, owners that are overpopulated.

So instead of focusing all of the energy on telling good, responsible, homes that they shouldn't breed, why don't you focus that energy on using your knowledge and experience to help someone understand how to be more responsible, and how to give their minis a better home.

Irresponsible breeding is only a fraction of the problem and yet that is the only part anyone here seems to be focusing on, and they take it too far by telling good horse owners that they shouldn't breed because their horses are inferior.

NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.

A cowhocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?


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## horsefeather (Dec 2, 2007)

Sorta, kinda agree with you Matt. However, lots of folks that sell horses 'try' and tell the newbies what needs to be done. Some listen....most don't. Let's just round up all the usless, and just plain mean people and do away with them!






BTW, we quit breeding a couple of years ago.

Pam


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## Jill (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm not worried. Personally, I would not feel good if I were aiming to breed for "just" pet quality and I'm not planning to make people pay $5,000 for my foals, either. Starting with show quality stock doesn't guarantee show quality off spring, but it makes me optimistic about the future. People can and will do WHATEVER they want. I'm happy though to have planned for this long before putting this into place (my breeding program). If it took just a couple months to slap it together (both in reality and in thought), I'd be bored of it before it started.


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## mydaddysjag (Dec 2, 2007)

Breeding show quality horses to show quality horses dosen't guarantee show quality foals, but its a heck of a better shot than breeding pet quality horses to pet quality horses and hoping for a show quality foal.



> A cowhocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?


I have a cowhocked horse, who is long in the back, has an upside down neck, and a few other faults. Do I love him any less? absolutely not! But he is a gelding, because although I love the little guy, I dont think his faults should be passed on to any offspring.

I would prefer that every horse had a home that was responsible and well educated, and I try my best to educate people locally the best I can. However, I would much rather see an unfit home have a gelding or mare than a stallion.

Sure, there are some stallions that are sweet as pie and loving, but there are far more that aren't as easy going as a mare or gelding, especially when they are with less than great owners. At my state 4H show I saw a little girl showing a stud colt. This colt was rearing on his back legs at the girl. He wasnt just rearing, but challenging the little girl. Quite a few people laughed at it, but I didnt find it funny at all. Would those people have found it funny if that colt had broke that little girls nose, or knocked her teeth out? I doubt it.

A stallion no matter what size can get out of control, and can be dangerous. Not to say that mares or geldings can't, but stallion have plenty of extra hormones, and the unexperienced owner usually dosen't know how to handle them.

Another thing is that a gelding can't produce. A mare can produce 1 foal a year, and a stallion can procude MANY foals a year.


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## Bess Kelly (Dec 2, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Irresponsible breeding is only a fraction of the problem and yet that is the only part anyone here seems to be focusing on, and they take it too far by telling good horse owners that they shouldn't breed because their horses are inferior.
> 
> NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.
> 
> A cowhocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?



Perhaps you should think about what you have said and consider another viewpoint......please rest assured that the majority of those on this forum do not feel a horse with a fault should not be loved, cared for and given a job. In fact, that is one of the things that is promoted. Nor do most of the forum members breed in huge quantity. But there is a general agreement that animals with known conformational issues should not be bred. They should be loved and put to their best use...be it driving, companion or pasture ornament.

The issues with attempting to breed better is not just about money. It is about the comfort and functionality of the animal that is produced. Why breed those with stifle issues??? Why continue to put out an animal that will have to suffer from this? Why breed those with crooked legs and off bites -- to pass those issues on to their offspring or grandget? These animals, bless their hearts, have an increased risk for pain, injury, health issues of various kind. Their quality of life can be considered compromised.

It is the integrity of the breeder that helps to channel the breed to better and healthier production. It is the duty of the breeder to train themselves and those with less knowledge about conformational issues. It is the love of the breeder for the horse that helps them decide to have non-breeding livestock. It sure isn't the money they hope to receive -- good animal husbandry can be expensive in many ways.


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 2, 2007)

quote" Because when you say "The breed is over populated, stop breeding so much" in one thread, and then "My mare is due this month" in another, that makes you a hypocrite, plain and simple! Its not exactly logical for you to preach to someone else not to breed, and then tell everyone about the pregnant mares you own.

Yep, that is a little pet peeve of mine. You hear that so much on this forum about not breeding because "they are not breeding quality" or over populated yet the same people saying that are breeding themselves. IMO they are trying to keep the breeding down so they can ask higher prices for their "quality" horses. Like you say, Not everyone is a show person or breeder and can't pay high prices for pets that would have a wonderful loving home. I personally think my pet horses have a much better life than the "quality show horses" .... it's not a problem if their coat fades in the sun, they can have nice pasture grass, don't have to wear the dreaded neck sweats or stomach sweats, can eat like a horse is suppose too, and loved to death. My horses are AMHR and AMHA registered but I would not put them through all that crap just to show when the shows are mostly political and who knows who anyway. IMO, it all comes down the the money ... the more shows they win the more they sell for.


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## maestoso (Dec 2, 2007)

Bess Kelly, I don't consider a horse with stifle problems, or severely crooked legs to be sound, and therefor would never like the idea or promote the idea of reproducing those problems. I clearly stated that I don't have a problem with *sound* horses being bred. And it is very clear that everyone on the forum wants all horses to be loved, regardless of the quality of the animal. And though most hear would agree that they would promote finding loving homes for pet quality horses. Most also don't see any place in this industry for *SOUND* pet quality breeding. The thing is, there IS a place for it, when done responsibly. Pet owners/buyers on a budget FAR OUT NUMBER those with the means to purchase show quality horses. Eliminating this type of breeding would eliminate oppertunitys for loving familys to find and purchase a loving pet, it would NOT eliminate the problems with abuse and neglect.


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## tagalong (Dec 2, 2007)

> IMO they are trying to keep the breeding down so they can ask higher prices for their "quality" horses.


*Mini Mouse* - where have you seen anyone say that?? A top quality horse may sell for big bucks - or not. You do not get higher prices based on lack of availability - as you seem to think some believe. That is sheer nonsense.



> My horses are AMHR and AMHA registered but I would not put them through all that crap just to show when the shows are mostly political and who knows who anyway. IMO, it all comes down the the money ... the more shows they win the more they sell for.


Oh - so those who show are abusing their horses by putting them through all that crap?? There is a great deal of reverse snobbery on this board at times that gets a bit frustrating. As is the implication that if you show you do not "love" your horses.







> Perhaps you should think about what you have said and consider another viewpoint......please rest assured that the majority of those on this forum do not feel a horse with a fault should not be loved, cared for and given a job. In fact, that is one of the things that is promoted. Nor do most of the forum members breed in huge quantity. But there is a general agreement that animals with known conformational issues should not be bred. They should be loved and put to their best use...be it driving, companion or pasture ornament.


Well said, *Bess* .... and I only wish more people would read it. And this as well....



> It is the integrity of the breeder that helps to channel the breed to better and healthier production. It is the duty of the breeder to train themselves and those with less knowledge about conformational issues. It is the love of the breeder for the horse that helps them decide to have non-breeding livestock. It sure isn't the money they hope to receive -- good animal husbandry can be expensive in many ways.


You know how to make a small fortune in breeding/selling/showing horses?

Start with a large one.

Or so the old saying goes.







> NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.


*Matt* - IMO this is so wrong in so many ways.

Anytime you breed - your aim is to improve on what you have - _to make the breed better_ . Otherwise - why bother? It has NOTHING to do with The Elite - as you seem to sneer. Why continue to allow poor qualities to continue? It hurts the breed - it does not help it. But I guess if it is "for fun" then by all means, breed that poor quality stallion who would make a wonderful gelding to that poor quality mare with the ewe neck and the underbite... I am just glad that horses do not have litters - or it seems we would have mini-mills along the lines of puppy mills. Who cares about quality... or the breed.

Well, I do. And it has nothing to do with $$$$$$$$$$.

And here is a thought - you can have FUN with better quality horses that do not cost $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$... as many here on this forum can testify...



> Eliminating this type of breeding would eliminate oppertunitys for loving familys to find and purchase a loving pet, it would NOT eliminate the problems with abuse and neglect.


No - such oppotunities would NOT be eliminated. As many of us have said - quality to quality does not always create quality of the same or higher level - althought that should always be the goal. And there are awesome pet minis available ALL THE TIME without anyone deliberately breeding for pet quality. A recent visit to a farm website that prides itself on breeding pets - showed me mares with upside down, thick necks, no hip... straight shoulders... none of this needs to be passed on. Why?

And yes - here we have sold winning show horses as PETS for pet prices as we found them great homes. A couple were even free. And I can tell you that every one of them was of much better quality than those mares on that website. Breed low quality.... and you may bring out and emphasize even worse issues... and I am not sure why anyone would want to do that...


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 2, 2007)

QUOTE

IMO they are trying to keep the breeding down so they can ask higher prices for their "quality" horses.

Mini Mouse - where have you seen anyone say that?? A top quality horse may sell for bug bucks - or not. You do not get higher prices based on lack of availability - as you seem to think some believe. That is sheer nonsense.

 


I did say .. IMO

 


I don't see how that can be sheer nonsense ... lack of availability can surely make the ones available more expensive. That's with any product.


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## tagalong (Dec 2, 2007)

Mini Mouse said:


> I don't see how that can be sheer nonsense ... lack of availability can surely make the ones available more expensive. That's with any product.


Strangely enough - I do not see horses as a "product".





When you see it as some kind of "conspiracy" among breeders to bring this about - THAT is when it becomes nonsense... IMO.


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## bevann (Dec 2, 2007)

As a former teacher(I think I will always try to teach people what I have learned from almost 20 years in Minis&alifetime in equines,I REALLY try to educate people about the care of Minis, but I have learned in the past year that many people do not want to learn&I can't fix STUPID.I give directions on feeding, care, farrier numbers, vet numbers, shot and trimming and worming records with each horse.My phone number and Barbara Naviaux's book goes with each horse.I send pre packed food for about 1 week and even include a bale of hay. I do follow up calls and visits.I don't know what else to do.I took back 2 mares that were half starved by the new owner in less than 10 months.I took back 2 others that the owner just decided they didn't want any more.I am not breed ing any more for next year and maybe never.I am just plain tired of stupid.These sweet little Minis deserve to be in a place where they are loved and wanted.


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 2, 2007)

bevann said:


> As a former teacher(I think I will always try to teach people what I have learned from almost 20 years in Minis&alifetime in equines,I REALLY try to educate people about the care of Minis, but I have learned in the past year that many people do not want to learn&I can't fix STUPID.I give directions on feeding, care, farrier numbers, vet numbers, shot and trimming and worming records with each horse.My phone number and Barbara Naviaux's book goes with each horse.I send pre packed food for about 1 week and even include a bale of hay. I do follow up calls and visits.I don't know what else to do.I took back 2 mares that were half starved by the new owner in less than 10 months.I took back 2 others that the owner just decided they didn't want any more.I am not breed ing any more for next year and maybe never.I am just plain tired of stupid.These sweet little Minis deserve to be in a place where they are loved and wanted.


Exactly!! I believe that 100%



tagalong said:


> Mini Mouse said:
> 
> 
> > I don't see how that can be sheer nonsense ... lack of availability can surely make the ones available more expensive. That's with any product.
> ...


Strange you don't see them as product. ..... anyone in the business of selling has a product to sell. In this case the product happens to be horses. That's simple!

And NO I don't see it as some kind of "conspiracy". I see it as a business


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## Minimor (Dec 2, 2007)

I do agree that a big part of the problem is simply stupid people, as Bevann says. However, that stupid isn't limited just to some uninformed, stupid buyers who decide they want a little horse but don't know anything about them and can't be bothered to learn. There are also stupid people breeding little horses (big ones too)--people that are simply too stupid to know the difference between what is a sound horse and what isn't. They don't know anything about horses, nothing about conformation, nothing about form to function, and the worst part is, they aren't interested in learning. They own a mare and a stallion and they have the right to breed that mare to that stallion and by golly they are going to breed the two, simply because they want to and think a foal would be cute. They don't see and don't want to see that one or both of the horses has some conformation flaw that is sure to cause problems a little further down the line...maybe both have the same flaw, which means a good chance the foal is going to have the same flaw, maybe worse than either parent, but oh golly the resulting baby is such a pretty color, he/she must surely be a wonderful breeding prospect

I'm all for people breeding what they like, even if it is pet quality rather than show quality, but I sure do wish that before they decide to breed that each and every breeder would educate themselves on what is good sound conformation.


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## Marty (Dec 2, 2007)

I'm with Bevann. When I sell a horse he goes with luggage and I mean he goes with luggage and I do have pictures to back that up.

My pet peeve, one of them anyhow, is sellers do not ask for references from buyers.

We have people right here on the forum that do not ask for references and could care less who they sell a horse to. All they know is they have to move that horse and get the money from the first one that shows up with the cash and to heck about where the horse ends up. They buy, they sell, they buy, they sell and don't bother to check a blasted thing out as far as who they are selling to. . It IS about the money. It's AWAYS about the money. Sell this one, so she can go buy that one. That's the way it is with a whole bunch right here and we all know it.

Well sorry to say, it's not that easy to buy a horse from me. I do insist on a vet reference and them some. No reference, no horse from here will go out the gate. I know that will not help if the new owner sells down the road but I do have a first buy back clause in my contract. Even if that slips up, hopefully the buyer will ask for a reference if and when they do sell my former horse. Even though there are no guarantees, a reference can help determine his future. We can only do so much but I do try.

I'll sit on my sales horses till the cows come home and frankly I don't give a dad gum. It don't bother me none. I figure I brought these horses into this world by my hand and it's my responsibility to place them in the bestest homes there are and that's the way it is up here on the mountain with the Weenie.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 3, 2007)

Marty said:


> I'm with Bevann. When I sell a horse he goes with luggage and I mean he goes with luggage and I do have pictures to back that up.
> 
> My pet peeve, one of them anyhow, is sellers do not ask for references from buyers.
> 
> ...















I'm with you 10,000% on this one. I would rather GIVE a horse away to a what I know would be an excellent home with a contract stipulating if at any time they do not want the animal, the animal comes back to me than to sell it to someone who can't be bothered to adhere to what I would put in a contract, which would be a first right of refusal to buy back, reference check as well, etc. Like you Marty if the purchaser balked at it, then the horse stays right here with me until I find a suitable home, end of story.


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 3, 2007)

Danielle_E. said:


> Marty said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with Bevann. When I sell a horse he goes with luggage and I mean he goes with luggage and I do have pictures to back that up.
> ...


Thank God for breeders like you two. When I bought my 2 foals the breeders even had me come stay at their house several times and interact with the horses. Then they inspected my barn and grounds before I even got to bring them home. Some people might think that was a little too much but I thought it was great. I learned a lot from those wonderful people.


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## Margaret (Dec 3, 2007)

Tee hee, Marty, My foals got some baggage too, ( Halters leads flymasks grain, and hay to get them started, lol) I think I sent along almost as much poundage in supplies as one of the babies actually weighed, just because I wanted them to get a good start.

It does pay in more ways than one to wait for a knowledgable and suitable home for your minis, ..

I was not going to breed again if I could not find appropriate homes for my two offspring from eariler this year, but their babies both sold to a discriminating, and horse savvy/experienced buyer.


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## Marty (Dec 3, 2007)

Ok now that I gave this more thought, let's not forget that this door swings both ways.

I have been on the receiving end more than once as a buyer of horses that were delivered to me in horrible condition, and grossly misrepresented. Talk about being pi $$ed off. Yup, they stuck it to the Weenie really good. Oh well, live and learn, right?

I would never want to sell a horse that the new buyer thought they were getting and be disappointed in on arrival also. So I do encourage people to take the time out for a farm visit first, and then make as many other visits as they care to before making that final decision. As a sellar, I do have those references handy also and they are more than welcome to check them out. I know my stock and I know who would be well suited with what kind of home and I am very willing to help my buyers figure it all out.

I have a lady now I have been working with for a couple of months and I would rather her shop around a little bit more, then come back and compare notes before making a final decision. I turned down her deposit until she has looked around a little bit more because as a newbie, we all know that you can fall in love with the first horse you see, so I want to be fair. I do want happy buyers because that makes for a happy horse future.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Dec 3, 2007)

Or you get the "Why are yours so expensive? I can get one at the auction for $150..." spiel. Well, not only do my REGISTERED horses come with a health guarantee, they come with US. If you have a problem at 3AM we have no problem when you call us. If you want to learn to show, we'll teach you. Wanna drive? We'll teach you that, too. Even lend you equipment to get started.

We breed for OURSELVES first. We like to show our own stock. We plan each breeding. Figure out which mare crosses best with which stallion. And we don't breed them ALL. I think we have five foals due. We have 15 mares....

Lucy


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## misfitminis (Dec 3, 2007)

I love my misfit minis.





I could blow $5,000 on a mini if I wanted but I like spoiling my misfits.


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## bevann (Dec 3, 2007)

GO MARTY!!!I just realised that he biggest baggage my horses come with is ME.I have turned people away from buying here because I didn't think it would be a good home for 1 of my horses.There are people who are on this forum that I would NEVER sell or buy from.I just recently gave away a coming 3 yr old mare that had 7 homes.She now has a forever home with a lady who is a hospice nurse.She called me to say she keeps tring to figure out why nobody wanted to keep this sweet little mare.She can't find anything wrong with her.I did not breed any mares for next year and maybe never again. I am no longer breeding anything to sell.If I ever breed again it will be because I want the foal for myself or a friend.


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## nootka (Dec 3, 2007)

> NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.


Why does this have to include breeding before doing research, before knowing what it takes to breed a "better" animal?

I don't believe it is for the elite. I would like to think/wish it is for people that KNOW what they're doing, including what it takes to get a foal safely on the ground, a sound and healthy one, and what it takes to train it for basic ground manners (I am not even referring to showing), and then to wait and find the right home for it, regardless of price.

I still don't see the reason people breed unpapered, homely little animals just for fun. I don't see any need for it. If you want this type of horse, there are plenty born on farms that are striving for show quality, who will be culled and sold as pets (if the person is truly trying to improve their program), they will even be GIVEN away at times. There are many at auctions and in newspapers who were bred by others who just "wanted to have fun" in the form of breeding animals.

I'm sorry but I get a feeling of irresponsibility when I see someone taking two horses they got out of a newspaper for $250 or so, no papers usually, and little to no research going into the parentage, and then the resulting offspring being sold for $250 or thereabouts. Not even that the horse is not show quality, or worth anything at all (I feel all of them have SOME worth, whether it just be a companion, or whatever pleasure they are suited to such as driving), it is that there are hundreds of these horses out needing homes, even BRED mares go through auctions so if you want the joy of having a foal, it's not necessary to buy the two cheapest (when money is the only criteria, you know things are WRONG with your program) and put them together just for the fun of a foal.

The horses I have for sale will stay here until they are sold or I keep them. I'm in no hurry. They are nice, they are not cheaply priced, but I feel they are also worth it. For the right person, I would deal and lower the price, I will not give them away, I will keep them instead. My gelding is better than a lot of colts being sold as stallions out there, but he's an amazing gelding and worth every bit as much as those intact colts even though he can't breed. Not a statement out of snobbery, if you know me, you know I am NOT a snob. I want to help others learn while I am learning, myself, because I sure don't know it all and never will.

I have learned a lot in the 12 years I have had minis, though. I know others have more experience and learning than myself and I love to hear what they say, and sometimes even disagree with them or my experience not jibing with theirs. Vice versa, I'm sure.

It is our privilege.

If all the responsible breeders stopped breeding, even their one or two per year, this would make the "foal mill" types really happy because there would be fewer options, then THEY would be the ones raising their prices, you betcha. Sorry but I'm jaded that way.

Liz (who has NO foals due next year, though I tried for ONE)


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 3, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.
> 
> A cow hocked horse, or a horse with a big head, or one clubbed foot, or a stocky build, or a neck that is a little short, can be perfectly sound and very appropriate for what an individual wants to do with it, and they are not destroying their breed. If anything, they are making more horses affordable to the "just for fun" enthusiast so the average Joe doesn't have to buy your $5000 dollar horse only to have it as a family pet. Maybe that is what your worried about?


Sorry only just picked up on this bit OH!

Breeding, responsible breeding, is only_only_ about improving the breed, there is NO other goal.

Whilst attempting to achieve this goal we may well produce second rate animals, with short necks or club feet- although, if you are breeding from conformationally sound animals you should not get anything too bad, it can happen, and certainly something as mild as cow hocks can happen anytime.

These animals are already on offer at affordable prices as has been indicated, there is no reason and no excuse for actually deliberately breeding them.

This is not "elitist" it is common sense!

If you do not make the breed better- if you do not constantly strive for this goal, you are breeding purely for money- this is what the puppy/foal mills do.

Do not give me the old "I breed pet quality animals so people can afford them" rubbish- no-one in their right mind would do such a thing.

If you are running a charity and giving away foals so everyone can afford them you can STILL breed and give away top quality animals as cheaply as you can breed pets.

There is nothing "cheap" about breeding pet foals, the only thing cheaper is the original price of the mare and stallion, everything else costs the same whether you are breeding a world champion or a fluffy little pet.


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## nootka (Dec 3, 2007)

hear, hear, Jane....you said it better than myself.

The thing that happens is that people get offended thinking it's "us against them" whoever those parties may be.

We're all in this together, and yes, if you're breeding for pets, your goals should be the same as the biggest show barn in the world: Healthy, sound, and beautiful animals with a market that appreciates them for such, whether it's for a cute pet for their daughter or to go into training as the next World champ.

Liz


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## nightflight (Dec 3, 2007)

> It is not the mini horse that is overpopulated, it is the STUPID, UNEDUCATED, ABUSIVE, NEGLECTFUL, AND IGNORANT, owners that are overpopulated.


I wish I could print this out on bumperstickers and plaster a car or two. Some folks just don't get something if they only read it once...



> NOT EVERYONE HAS TO HAVE A GOAL OF ALWAYS MAKING THE BREED BETTER. THIS BREED S NOT JUST FOR THE ELITE. SOME PEOPLE JUST WANT TO HAVE FUN AND ENJOY THEIR ANIMALS.


I know I'm going to get flamed to heck and back for this, but I have to say I both agree and disagree. On "This breed is not just for the elite", I agree. There are plenty of really good, honest and smart people who are not "elite". However, I think the slogan the horse for everyone is one of the worst ideas the AMHA has ever had. Horses are not for everyone. "Everyone" is also a lot of those Stupid, Uneducated, Abusive, Neglectful, and Ignorant people you were talking about. Producing enough horses that they are available and affordable for everyone does exactly that... makes them available to anyone.

As a breeder and a seller sooner or later you learn that everyone who is S.U.A.N.I. doesn't wear a sign. Some have money. Some will tell you exactly what you want to hear. Some are really sly, and some will be an ideal owner in some respects and totally insane or dishonest in others.

One of the themes I've seen over and over on this thread is that people want to give every horse they sell the best possible chance at a good life. They send books, care packets, instruction sheets....

----> This is what I'm going to get flamed for.

People who breed FOR pet quality ONLY are going in the other direction. They are setting a horse up to fall through the cracks and end up on a menu in another country.

My horse, your horse, good, bad or otherwise - the worst could happen to anyone. There could be a theft, a death in a family, loose contact with a buyer, anything. Anyone's horse could end up at a public auction going for the price per pound. It's less likely to happen with our minis, but it can and does happen.

That pet quality horse all the way, with or without papers is going to have only one type of buyer. Those people looking for a pet. That pet horse from a show program, with papers hopefully, is going to have more types of buyers, people looking for a pet, people who like horses from that program, or people who think that this one may be a starter show horse.

The educated buyers that we all want are exactly that - educated. They know the difference between pet quality and a quality pet. Given a choice they are going to choose the quality pet.

If it hits these boards that a reigstered horse is about to go through a low end auction, people will pay attention. If a pedgiree or show record is provided chances are someone will arrange to save that horse. They won't let it fall through the cracks if they find out about it in time. Every week unregistered minis that were bred just to be pets go through livestock auctions. At $40 for a horse where do you think they are ending up? Not all of them, but some...

Breeding for the betterment of the breed, or only for show etc, isn't over some ethical ideal to only create beauty. It's about the ethics of knowing that once you sell a horse that the very worst could happen, and giving that horse every chance to avoid that fate. Beauty and potential attract buyers. Smart, Educated, Kind buyers. Even the meat men know when they can make more money on a horse re-selling than shipping.

If keeping my horses out of a can means that I miss out on some wonderful homes that think I sell only to the "elite", well, that is something I can live with. The care and wellbeing of the animals I've brought into this world have to come before the wants of others. Breeding for the best is about breeding for what is best for the horses - not breeding so the magic pony fairy can give a mini to every child that wants one.

If you are breeding to please people, that is your choice, just please, please, please make breeding choices that give the horses a chance too. Don't make them suffer just so someone can get that pony they want that they want NOW! Even if it means that people have to wait for a foal, or maybe even *save* for a few months to be able to afford one with papers, please give your horses every possible chance for a good life now, a year from now, and twenty-five years from now.


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 3, 2007)

I think you say it well...there are enough poorly conformed, homely minis born to farms that are striving for show quality. I don't see where these minis aren't always sold for pets and non breeding minis though. Many people who breed for show quality are selling mini foals as show quality and yet they do not turn out to be show quality and the buyer then tries to recover their investment and breed these animals. Many people who breed for show quality think most every foal they have is show quality and want that show quality price for it. I know of more than one youngster that was sold as show quality by a big name [someone breeding for their show quality foal] that I wouldn't have on my place. Sure the buyers knows it is not show quality but the seller won't do anything about it and it has "such good bloodlines that maybe it will produce something show quality"




And if you go to auctions, you know it isn't just the person who"wanted to have fun"There are also sellers who are breeding for the "show quality" that are also there.

We can sit here behind our computers and put down the other peson until forever but the fact remains not everyone is alike, nor are they breeding for the same kind of mini or purpose. I think Matt makes a good point in that there are those who talk of how the market is flooded and yet still do a breeding or two or 50 but you know, they do have the right to do that and I am learning more all the time that I need to do my own very best and let others do what is right for them. Unfortunately there are people who come across as snobs when they speak, just the way it is. If we brag about how great we do and all the while critize what the other person is doing, these type of threads will not do a good job of educating. When someone says they have made their mistakes along the way, doesn't that mean others are alllowed to make theirs also? I do know we did not go out and buy our first minis with a whole lot of attitude that we were going to breed and produce only the best minis we could, we started out with some for our pleasure. Being a person who does love to learn I soon found out about Barbara's book and that was a beginning of wanting to have the best minis I could afford and had my goal in mind.



> If all the responsible breeders stopped breeding, even their one or two per year, this would make the "foal mill" types really happy because there would be fewer options, then THEY would be the ones raising their prices, you betcha. Sorry but I'm jaded that way


I can't agree with this because those who are breeding for show quality will continue to have their market for thier show quality foals. People who are breeding for "the fun of it" do not touch the show quality market. I believe the show qulity market has been more affected by the many who are breeding for the show quality minis than the ones who are breeding for "the fun of it" But then that is just my opinion and from what I have seen with my own eyes.



> I still don't see the reason people breed unpapered, homely little animals just for fun. I don't see any need for it. If you want this type of horse, there are plenty born on farms that are striving for show quality, who will be culled and sold as pets (if the person is truly trying to improve their program), they will even be GIVEN away at times. There are many at auctions and in newspapers who were bred by others who just "wanted to have fun" in the form of breeding animals.the price, I will not give them away, I will keep them instead. My gelding is better than a lot of colts being sold as stallions out there, but he's an amazing gelding and worth every bit as much as those intact colts even though he can't breed. Not a statement out of snobbery, if you know me, you know I am NOT a snob. I want to help others learn while I am learning, myself, because I sure don't know it all and never will.
> 
> It is our privilege.
> 
> Liz (who has NO foals due next year, though I tried for ONE)


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 3, 2007)

SUANI and SEK- I like!!!!


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## maestoso (Dec 3, 2007)

Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????

My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"

What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you dont get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.


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## Jill (Dec 3, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????
> 
> My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"
> 
> What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you dont get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.


The average person who has any business owning horses can afford to pay the prices I've paid for my show quality horses, and the prices I plan to ask for my (hopefully show quality) foals. People who can only afford to pay a few hundred for a horse can't afford to really own one in my opinion.

Now, there is a big difference between what someone can afford to pay and what someone is willing to pay. I do not think a couple-few thousand is too much to spend on a foal, nor too much for a dog for that matter.

You're going on about what people can AFFORD to pay. The thing is, every single person who owns a horse is endulging in a major luxury. It's something that NO ONE needs. It's about what people want to improve their lives, not about what they need. It's like saying diamond rings should be cheaper so everyone can afford to own one -- except diamond rings don't need to be fed hay and see the vet when they get sick.


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## nootka (Dec 3, 2007)

> Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????
> 
> My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"
> 
> What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you dont get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.


My answer is yes. I have given away mares that were not breeding quality and I have sold some for $500,j which, to me, is bottom dollar for a pet horse. That is making NO money.

L.


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## MInx (Dec 3, 2007)

*Yes, and am I ever sick of hearing like backyard breeders of dogs the excuse of*

"We wanted our kids to see the miracle of birth!" Then get a dang fish aquarium!

Before you flame , yes fish count too! But people overpopulate dogs and they end up in the pound because "the kids wanted to see the miracle of birth" Rubbish! And cats too and duh, guess what it's nearly that way with mini horses..

How many of the new owners start by buying a Mare/stallion or 3 in one pkg?! Why, only one reason , they see $$ in their eyes.

Well they need to go visit this forums sales board, auction board and or Pet-finder or equine.com.

The market is saturated! I could be wrong. we don't breed and perhaps it's the availability of free advertising to sell so we just see more out there. But how many of those ads say, "Due to the price of hay, gas etc" Did they think when they planned those breeding's the foals wouldn't have to eat?!

When I showed Great Danes for 11 yrs we had all of 3 litters in all that time! Could have sold dozens..we followed all our puppies first year at minimum and some sent pictures till that puppy went through it's life and died of old age.!

Many, many seem to be looking for the quick buck like we've all said..

May I ask what's wrong with buying yourself A horse, not a herd! Drive it, show it if you will, love it, teach it tricks...but give it the attention and love it deserves. mind you due to my health I don't do SHammy the justice I feel she deserves..but she knows how I love her and adore her, and most of all I RESPECT her..and the same with Carl and his Shadow gelding.

Our place isn't fancy, I don't normally show pictures..but it's a good safe, warm pole barn with cozy stalls..a turn out pen that runs way back behind the barn cleared from the woods..they have shade from the heat, also a turn out shed out there.

To me basics are everything..that's where you start and if you're not ready for the challenge, STOP THERE!

I'd love to have a baby from Shammy, she has good breeding, (an own daughter of East Acres Golden Jubilee) .But she had four already before I got her (she had three Palomino fillies and one sorrel filly)and she's done..My wanting one just isn't reason enough to do it..

Maxine


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 3, 2007)

Anyone who pays thousands of dollars for a pet usually has more money than they know what to do with or maybe not had to work really hard for the money. If we check the past out, I think we find that even the minis who were selling for the lowest amount, which was in the thousand and up range, were buying them for breeding because the market was bringing great prices for anything small. It isn't how much a person pays for your horse that makes it the best home, it is about many other things. I know of people who are loaded and buy what ever their heart desires but it isn't long before the new is old and they are off to something else. I would be much more hesitant in selling to the person who can afford everything their heart desires than to a person who knows all about how to manage what they earn. The best way to make sure your mini never gets into a bad home is not sell it. There just aren't any guarantees in life that are worthwhile. If you don't breed you never have to worry about the right home for that mini. If you do breed you will never know for sure where that mini may end up in the future. That is simply the reality of breeding and it is far different from producing something that is not a living breathing creature. We can only do the best we can. Mary


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## nightflight (Dec 3, 2007)

Matt,

What is reasonable?


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 3, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Well if you feel that breeding for pet quality should NEVER be done, because it is "rubbish" are you prepared to lower your sale prices and stud fees so that the average pet lover can pay a REASONABLE price for a PET????
> 
> My guess is that your answer is NO. You will say "No because they can GO ELSEWHERE to find their pet, and find cheap prices"
> 
> What your saying is that pet breeding should be stopped. So the goal is that the ONLY pet quality horses that SHOULD be available are those that are ACCIDENTS, meaning, the unlucky event that you breed two quality horses together and you don't get that quality. Well if that were the ONLY way pet horses were available, they would not meet the demand of people that want pets and want to pay pet prices for those pets. There are far more pet owners then shoe owners.


You are making assumptions that have absolutely NO grounding in truth!!

MANY top breeders will lower to very affordable the price of a colt wanted as a gelding, and as a pet- I know I do.

What I object to is someone wringing their hands about price and wanting a "little pet" for little pet price but, oh No he shall not be gelded as they might just breed him the once.............................

Hah!!!!

But, no, on a gelding contract(or better still already gelded) I am only too glad to let a colt go at "pet" price, of course, and I know many, many others like me.


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## Jill (Dec 3, 2007)

Buckskin gal said:


> Anyone who pays thousands of dollars for a pet usually has more money than they know what to do with or maybe not had to work really hard for the money....


You know, in my life, what extra things give me more joy than my pets and horses? I've not yet spent thousands for a dog, but if it was the dog I want, you bet I would. Some people pay that for a *TV*, so why is that out of the realm of reasonable for a pet? My family members have spent that for their dogs, and I did spend close for one... WE all know what it's like to work very hard for what we have. Those who have more money than they know what to do with should talk to me. I make my living knowing what to do with money.


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## Elsa (Dec 3, 2007)

Cheers to you, Marty! I wish more breeders were so responsible and dedicated to the well-being of the horses they bring into the world.

We have bred two horses here and they will more than likely stay here. I get the impression that most (not all) breeders sell horses to anyone who has the money to buy them. And then if they end up in a good home, it turns into "I sold a horse to a great home". Yeah, but you didn't know that ahead of time.

for those who claim horse breeding isn't a business, what a bunch of crap! Those who breed several foals every year, how can it not be a business? Surely you don't plan on keeping all those foals. Maybe one or two at the most to improve your breeding program, but what about the rest of them?!


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 3, 2007)

Perhaps you missed the point I was trying to make which often happens. There is nothing that I enjoy more than our minis, also. Yes, if you have the money to pay thousands of dollars for a pet, then do so but not everyone does and so they pay a price within their means and have just as much love for the animal as the

more expensive pets gets, in many cases. I didn't say anything was out of realm for an individual nor did I say that no one shouldn't be able to buy what they can afford. Please don't be so defensive for all this is is opinions and I was not speaking to you personally. Mary



Jill said:


> Buckskin gal said:
> 
> 
> > Anyone who pays thousands of dollars for a pet usually has more money than they know what to do with or maybe not had to work really hard for the money....
> ...


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## Jill (Dec 3, 2007)

Mary, really, was just giving my opinion on your statement. Not feeling defensive or anything, just stating my personal opinion.

Back to what I think the theme of the thread was set out to be (though I may be confused, it did seem to ramble) -- I'm not one who thinks we need to breed minis with the purpose in mind of accomodating the $500 per mini market.

Why set out to breed for pet quality when pet quality happens with the best of planning. Who here would even stay in breeding if it were just to ask $500/foal? That doesn't begin to cover the expensives of a pregnancy especially if the vet has to get even slightly involved (like for a well foal check...).

People who are only willing to pay a couple-few hundred for a horse will find them. They are out there and always will be. But, to set out to breed a foal that will be worth only a few hundred............ OH!


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 3, 2007)

Yes, these threads do seem to ramble...thier nature to!



I do believe that there are people who will be breeding minis even though they aren't making money. I would love to see every person who breeds minis breed only the very best but it just isn't going to happen and it is something others have to learn to live with. I guess if we want to breed our thousand dollar horses without someone objecting then we have to allow those who are are breeding the $500.00 ones also. I am one that believes it isn't the amount paid for the horse that will guarantee a show prospect and I know of minis that have sold for $350.00 that were of great quality and did prove themselves in the showring also. That is just the way it is. Mary



Jill said:


> Mary, really, was just giving my opinion on your statement. Not feeling defensive or anything, just stating my personal opinion.
> 
> Back to what I think the theme of the thread was set out to be (though I may be confused, it did seem to ramble) -- I'm not one who thinks we need to breed minis with the purpose in mind of accomodating the $500 per mini market. Why set out to breed for pet quality when pet quality happens with the best of planning. Who here would even stay in breeding if it were just to ask $500/foal? That doesn't begin to cover the expensives of a pregnancy especially if the vet has to get even slightly involved (like for a well foal check...). People who are only willing to pay a couple-few hundred for a horse will find them. They are out there and always will be. But, to set out to breed a foal that will be worth only a few hundred............ OH!


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## Shari (Dec 3, 2007)

This subject has been around a long time. Problem is.. .. most of the people that need to learn aren't on this list.

Personally.. if I want a new horse.. I rather get one from someone I know that has the same values as I do or I bred my own...because I know what I will be getting. I would like to have that option.

If all breeding stopped by the responsible breeders and only the puppy mills or uncaring folks kept breeding....that would not do anyone any favors.

I would rather have the well bred horse, than one from a mini mill or unknowledgeable breeders.

There is no easy way. People can argue till the cows come home but unless they are willing to go out and educate people without making them defensive.............. nothing is going to change.


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## Leeana (Dec 3, 2007)

> Marty Today, 12:57 AM Post #14
> We have people right here on the forum that do not ask for references and could care less who they sell a horse to. All they know is they have to move that horse and get the money from the first one that shows up with the cash and to heck about where the horse ends up. They buy, they sell, they buy, they sell and don't bother to check a blasted thing out as far as who they are selling to. . It IS about the money. It's AWAYS about the money. Sell this one, so she can go buy that one. That's the way it is with a whole bunch right here and we all know it.


Hi Marty,

What about those of us who truly just want to better their horses AND program? I to am one of the more picky ones about who i sell to and i do not over price my horses for that reason and my horses generally sell fast as i am honest in the horses i am selling and what i tell them the horse IS what the horse is when they come to pick it up or when it walks off the trailer at their farm. However, i (for the most part) do not buy every horse with intention of keeping it for ever and ever and ever. If you want to have a 'up to date' program and keep up with the horses that are out there winning in the show ring you do have to buy some and sell some and possibly do a little switching in and out until you get where you want to be. Is there anything wrong with that? I sure hope not. If that makes me a bad person because i want to better my horses and get to a certain point in my program, smack me on the wrist. So far, every horse i have sold i have remained in contact with the owner and have become pretty good friends with, same with all that i have purchased from. Its not about the money ..its just about bettering the show string i want to take out that year or that next year and the horses i want to produce.


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## Jill (Dec 3, 2007)

Leeana --

Don't feel bad ever about "upgrading" your breeding stock. It's something EVERYONE who is serious about producing quality has done, and will continue to do. I made some tough choices a few years ago and the end result was I sold seven horses I loved (5 mares, 2 geldings) to make room for horses I could love AND put to good use with my new goals. The horses I sold went on to new homes where they are the special ones, very loved and appreciated. It was a win-win for everyone. I do think of the ones I have sold often, but don't regret any of the sales.

ALSO, I think you do a lot of work with your horses. The way I've felt, all the horses I've sold were better off for having passed through my hands. I'd think that you should feel the same.

Jill


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## maestoso (Dec 3, 2007)

Perhaps my thoughts and opinions are based on my location, southern Maine, where I don't believe, at all, that the market is over saturated, nor do I believe that a reasonably priced pet is "easy" to get. What I consider pet quality, is an overall sound, healthy, and functional horse, with some minor conformational faults, perhaps cow hocked, maybe a short neck, or a long back, etc. Those horses around hear go anywhere from 8 or 9 hundred to 2,000. Once in a while you can find something for much cheaper, but not often. I think something around 1000 is a good pet price, but they are only available around here BECAUSE of the "backyard breeder". The horses that are selling for 300-500 are usually NOT sound, i.e., roach backs, stifle problems, etc, and that, I absolutely agree, is the result of irresponsible breeding, and those horses may be readily available, but that loving family looking for a functional pet DOESNT want something like that.

I guess I can see this topic slightly differently as I write this. If we look at minis in 3 categories, Show quality, pet quality(which as I stated, I consider pet quality sound and any faults are minor, still very functional) and unsound, at least around here, it is the unsound horses that overpopulate the market, and those are the horses that are hard to find a use for. Most people around here don't want a lawn ornament. They want something their small children can ride, or that the family can drive around, or they can show performance at the local shows, all things that unsound horses are not suited for, therefor they don't belong in these homes. Where do they belong? I don't know, as well cared for lawn ornaments I suppose but that's just not something that is in demand around here. And while those horses are plentiful, the reasonably priced, functional pet, is not! To answer a previous question, I consider somewhere around 800-1200 a reasonably priced pet. And the only way to meet the demand for that around here, is to breed for it. Because the "accident" foals, bred out of quality horses that dont reproduce the qualities, definitely do not meet the demand for the families who want pets.

I dont support breeding soundness problems, but I absolutely support breeding functional, sound pets, by responsible, and experienced owners.

If I lived within a market that the pets I described were readily available, perhaps my opinion would be different.

And before someone retorts, I dont think shipping a horse from across the country is always a viable option.


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 3, 2007)

(quote)The average person who has any business owning horses can afford to pay the prices I've paid for my show quality horses, and the prices I plan to ask for my (hopefully show quality) foals. People who can only afford to pay a few hundred for a horse can't afford to really own one in my opinion. 

Horse Hockie


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## mininik (Dec 3, 2007)

Don't take what Jill said out of context, Mini Mouse. Reading your incomplete quote I was shocked also, but if you go back and re-read all of what she said you'll see that she is talking about people who literally cannot AFFORD a horse unless it's very cheap. More so than the purchase price, Jill is also referencing the quality of care such a home could AFFORD to provide the horse after purchase as we all know that purchasing a horse is the cheapest part of ownership. I have never paid more than $500.-1500. for a horse and took no offense to what was said due to the fact that I am secure in knowing what I can AFFORD to provide the horses in my care. (Hey, I'd love to own a Porsche, too, but I simply cannot AFFORD the cost of insurance or repairs... even if the car was free or very inexpensive!)


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## Marty (Dec 3, 2007)

Hey Leanna I figured I'd get caught on the way I worded that part. My sentences were actually in reverse.That is not what I meant, sorry I confused you.

Not a thing wrong with buying and selling to upgrade if you are replacing your stock that's fine and wonderful, but should be done with respect to your sales horses welfare and future. Not just be in a hurry to unload them to anyone just so you can get on with your new plans. Upgrading is a good thing to the breeder and shower but the key to all selling is to sell with responsibility and give your present stock a good shot at a great new home.


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## skanzler (Dec 3, 2007)

I have read this entire thread, as many others have.

IMO there is no reason to intentionally breed "pet quality" horses. There are plenty of horses out there for those that want a "pet". You don't see breeders in the large horses intentianlly breeding "pets". They produce these occassionally when a cross they chose did not produce what they wanted, or threw back to a conformation or quality that was not expected or wanted.

As many of the people on here have stated the only one that suffers is the horse, that is shuffled from place to place and could, not always, but could end up on a slaughter truck, or worse in some back pasture with overgrown feet, either overfed or underfed, neglected and forgotten. Yes it could happen to the best of horses. But most people that put a thousand or more into something is less likely to let that money go to waste.

Your opinion that this an elitist group striving to only have those horses that come with big price tags is sheer nonsense. Sure there are those out there that feel their horses are worth thousands. There will always be those type of people in any business venture. But there are many more of us that would love to see our programs produce some beautiful quality horses, to be sold to people to enjoy. Either in the pasture or out in the arena.

Breeding for future sales is a business, no matter if you are producing one or two, or 50-60 horses for sale. Any time you are making money it no longer is considered a "hobby". And you can bet Uncle Sam will want his fair share.

Yes the mini market is saturated. We all know it and we all have to deal with it. We have to make our own decision to breed or not to breed in a given year. If you had 20 babies last year and you still have 15 foals that have not sold... HMMMM maybe you better hold off breeding those mares for next year. If you had 20 babies and you sold all of them, then go for it.

Don't get mad at those of us that breed for the $15,000 horse (not mine, I wish). If there is someone that has that kind of money and wants to spend it, then more power to them. If someone walked up to me at a show and offered me that kind of money for one of my horses, I would not only be flattered, I would have the new lead rope and halter embroidered with the new owners name.....

Most of the time I sell my horses very reasonably, as I love to see them out there being loved and hopefully shown. But if someone wanted a horse just to enjoy I could probably find one that would foot the bill. Even if I do not have it on the ranch, I could direct them to someone that might. This is what the horse community is about. Working together to "better the breed" and to network the horses. Referring out to others.


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## Jill (Dec 3, 2007)

mininik said:


> Don't take what Jill said out of context, Mini Mouse. Reading your incomplete quote I was shocked also, but if you go back and re-read all of what she said you'll see that she is talking about people who literally cannot AFFORD a horse unless it's very cheap. More so than the purchase price, Jill is also referencing the quality of care such a home could AFFORD to provide the horse after purchase as we all know that purchasing a horse is the cheapest part of ownership. I have never paid more than $500.-1500. for a horse and took no offense to what was said due to the fact that I am secure in knowing what I can AFFORD to provide the horses in my care. (Hey, I'd love to own a Porsche, too, but I simply cannot AFFORD the cost of insurance or repairs... even if the car was free or very inexpensive!)


Thank you, Nicole. That is exactly what I said and meant to say -- that someone who can only afford to pay a few hundred dollars for a horse has no business owning one. Funny how that's very clear when my entire (though short) post is read, vs. a strategic snippet of it


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## Leeana (Dec 3, 2007)

Also before anyone gets offended ...

I just wanted to add to Jills post that there is a huge difference between only being able to pay maybe $600 for a horse VR only wanting to pay $600 for a horse. Those are two very different things, did i just confuse anyone.

I agree with Jill, but like i said above there is a huge difference between only being able to pay $100-$600 for a horse VR only wanting to pay that amount.


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## Marty (Dec 3, 2007)

I know exactly what Jill means; there are people who cannot afford to feed themselves and pay their bills much less take on a horse.

Then we have the kind of people that will pay all kinds of money for a horse, but you mention "call the vet" for whatever his problem is and by gosh they look at you like you are crazy. "Put money into the horse? You kidden, he cost enough already.........."


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## nootka (Dec 3, 2007)

The problem is that people see a certain issue their own way, have their own solutions.

noone's saying the only pets available should be "rejects" or accidents, but truthfully, a nice quality type show horse makes an awesome pet, too.

Why shouldn't pet quality also be show quality?

No, they don't have to cost $5000, but then again, why does it have to be $200 to be affordable?

Like Jill said, horses are not something to be cutting corners on just to have one, because sooner or later, it's going to get expensive and those that are trying to be cheap about it will possibly cut corners on vet bills, wormer, hoof trims, vaccinations, feed, supplements etc. etc. and before you know it, that $200 horse needs thousands of dollars worth of rehabilitation.

My horses are fine to go to a pet home, and I will consider price adjustments, but I am not giving someone a break just because they feel like trying to get a discount on breeding horses for the sake of making more pets. GO TO AN AUCTION.

There are many pet quality there that NEED HOMES. They do need some extra TLC, but from what I've heard, there are many that are in ok health, just maybe need some training or attention.

Ask around, the horse already exists that needs a pet home. It's silly to breed more just for pets for the low priced, affordable market. There is an excess of them.

Many people for illness reasons sell out often and they have to sell them for low prices just because they cannot care for them physically...they may well be breeding quality, or even show quality. They are very affordable.

If you want to keep arguing that someone has to buy up pet quality and breed more pet quality, have at it, but you will not make money buying and selling these horses for a few hundred apiece, and if you are, I guarantee you're not feeding them enough.

L.


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## Warpony (Dec 3, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Perhaps my thoughts and opinions are based on my location, southern Maine, where I don't believe, at all, that the market is over saturated, nor do I believe that a reasonably priced pet is "easy" to get. What I consider pet quality, is an overall sound, healthy, and functional horse, with some minor conformational faults, perhaps cow hocked, maybe a short neck, or a long back, etc. Those horses around hear go anywhere from 8 or 9 hundred to 2,000. Once in a while you can find something for much cheaper, but not often. I think something around 1000 is a good pet price, but they are only available around here BECAUSE of the "backyard breeder". The horses that are selling for 300-500 are usually NOT sound, i.e., roach backs, stifle problems, etc, and that, I absolutely agree, is the result of irresponsible breeding, and those horses may be readily available, but that loving family looking for a functional pet DOESNT want something like that.



I think to a certain extent your location may then be a part of the reason why my opinion differs from yours. The market where I am is no where near like that.

I paid $300 for my gelding, and $350 for my mare. Both are registered and sound. I looked at over 10 horses in my area in the $200 to $500 price range. These were horses with papers, several of them with training. Most of them were sound and young and had no faults that were likely to effect their soundness (one had post legs in back and stifle issues, but otherwise they were all nice little useful horses that just wouldn't make it in the show ring at high levels. A couple of them had shown at a local level and done well.

I also looked at a colt who was easily show quality, from parents who had done VERY well in the show ring (far beyond local shows) and was double registered and started in harness for $800... the only reason I did not buy him is because I will NOT ever show, I am a pet home ONLY and he deserved a chance to shine in the show ring.

Just over a year ago at our local auction a truck load of 20 to 25 mini weanlings with papers, all very small, most fairly correct (again, pet quality but nice useful pet quality), went for an average price of $30 each. High seller was $50. My neighbor told me about it since I was not there, and I called my ex husbands cousin who works there to confirm it.


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## nightflight (Dec 3, 2007)

Hi Matt,

Thanks for this topic!

I find your ideas on reasonable pets and reasonable prices to be very…reasonable.



> ...And while those horses are plentiful [unsound horses], the reasonably priced, functional pet, is not! To answer a previous question, I consider somewhere around 800-1200 a reasonably priced pet.


Just tossing this out there, but perhaps why there are not so many breeders for what you are wanting in that price range is because, for a breeder, it’s a very difficult place to be. Even though they are not showy show horses, sound functional horses still do not happen by accident. They take some skill to produce. In the 800-1200 range you could likely cover your expenses – if nothing bad happens. One big vet bill, old building, or act of God and you’ve got to make one of two choices…

1)	Pour money into the pit and keep loosing money until you are broke.

2)	Cut corners.

The first case could explain the lack of breeders – they just don’t last that long. The second case – probably a lot of the breeders of unsound horses you see got started that way. They didn’t set out to breed unsound, they just ended up there.

What you seem to be describing is what any SEK (thanks rabbit) would call a good, useful horse. I think the frustration level alone - fighting for the pet market with the SUINAs would send most SEKs running for the hills. It's not like the SUINAs wave a flag and say, "I'm SUINA"! They want to "educate" buyers so they can sell horses too.

--> Using the word "unsound" here to describe a poor quality pet, unregistered, etc... see first post on the topic.


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## Katiean (Dec 3, 2007)

Why do we assume that if you didn't pay a lot for a horse or there is nothing in the pedigree with a show record and someone has a mare and stud and want to breed they will surly breed junk and are damaging the breed. I saw this with the Standard Size Rex with the fur industry. If you didn't pay $1,000 for a doe and $1,500 for a buck you were breeding junk. The people with these rabbits were very angry when they found out that we had just as high of fur quality as they did. dollar amount does not equal quality.


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## nootka (Dec 4, 2007)

> dollar amount does not equal quality.


It always seems to come to this. Noone said it did, and the point isn't what the horse cost.

Typically, though, a low-quality horse will bring a low-dollar price. Not always, and the reverse may sometimes be true.

What makes a horse low or mediocre quality isn't how much it cost, it is what goes into the horse: good breeding, proper record keeping of registration papers, and care and feeding (not necessarily in that order, but those things add to the value of a horse). When you have low quality, it usually means the only criteria for breeding was the fact tha tsomeone thought they would "have a little fun/make a little money" as in they did not fully evaluate their stock before deciding to pair them. Heck, they may even be half siblings or full siblings, (yes, I've seen this) but they have a matched set, so why not have a foal and make some moolah!

they rarely keep the papers current (they may have a boxful of excuses why, but typically, it's because of money and/or effort involved or because they can't follow the rules required to register their stock), and then they don't put the care and training into the foal to make it worth more.

Honestly, I would be willing to bet that some of those $30 animals previously mentioned at an auction, if they were purchased and fed, groomed, vetted, etc. and trained to some degree, would be every bit as worthy of Matt Drown's reasonable price tag for a pet. Certainly cheaper to buy a $30 horse than to breed a mare and stallion, feed the mare for the next 11 months, then vet and feed both mare and foal, get it to the age where it's weanable for sale. You would make more off of the auction horse, and you could likely choose your gender and color (and height and soundness level), something you don't get to do with a foal you potentially breed. All of those things are a tossup. Maybe it comes down to simple gambling? People love to gamble, that's a fact.

It is a factor for me, the excitement of not knowing what will come out in the toss of the dice, but certainly not enough to keep me from considering the long-term effects of my actions.

Around here, it's hard to get $1500 for a high quality gelding, even one that is showable and very sound.

I have never sold a horse I have bred for $5000, for the record, but I have sold a few for pet prices, and even given some away for pet purposes. On average, though, I would guess I get around $2000 per foal I've raised. Not bad, but not top dollar by any stretch and fairly close to Matt's reasonable price again. Most of them for that price are well-cared for from conception and before, and they are trained, they are cared for and vaccinated, trimmed to enhance their quality of life and make them a potentially better investment than something someone would find at auction (where you don't know HOW they have been cared for, or if, let alone trained).

Breeding just for pets just doesn't make sense, when all that is required is soundness. I know there are scores of sound pet suitable miniatures with and without papers that would be available quite easily, rather than rounding up all these mediocre horses with the sole intention of making more pets. Even with shipping, they would be cheaper than making more foals.

Off my soapbox and off to switch the generator over so we can all watch some tv and run the 'fridge.

Liz


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

As I said before, I am willing to box my opinion to my location, where there are certainly not scores of sound pets at reasonable prices. Again, I think that shipping is not always an option. If shipping were as easy as just saying "look elsewhere and pay for shipping" then perhaps a lot more people would ship, and there would be a better balance, and by that I mean, in areas where sound reasonably priced pets are not plentiful, people could ship from places where they were over populated.....

Maybe I am paranoid, but I would probably not buy a horse from far away and ship it, unless I could go get it myself, or the seller was delivering it themselves. I know people who have, and they have fantastic horses, which they DID get for reasonable prices, but it isn't for me and here's why....

Commercial shipping prices, are a lot of time ridiculous, and in these cases, unless the horses is practically free, the cost of shipping isn't worth it.

Lot's of things can happen to a horse in a long trailer ride, and to find a shipper that has insurance that would cover every possible accident is hard, not to mention many shippers don't know a thing about horse care, they just know how to drive their truck.

What disease is the horse bringing home with it?

What didn't the seller tell me? Which I couldn't see for myself because the horse was to far away to see in person?

Am I actually getting what was sold to me?

I guess shipping could be a whole other thread, and perhaps, for the right horse, and with the right shipper, my opinion on this topic could be swayed, but for now, commercial shipping, and buying a horse sight unseen, even with decent pictures, makes me nervous.


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## luvmycritters (Dec 4, 2007)

OH!







> Before you flame , yes fish count too! But people overpopulate dogs and they end up in the pound because "the kids wanted to see the miracle of birth" Rubbish! And cats too and duh, guess what it's nearly that way with mini horses..
> How many of the new owners start by buying a Mare/stallion or 3 in one pkg?! Why, only one reason , they see $$ in their eyes.


Yup, that was me, though I do love all animals - I do admitt, I saw $ signs big time. I was told " the little ones go for much more then the full sized horses - but dont repeat that..!'' Nest came two mares - one registered, twenty something, one unregistered "b" sized mare. And lastly, a little registered stallion. I honestly dont remember what I paid for the three package deal, was it fifteen hundred - that is what I want to say...No price was ever set on any of the individuals, that was ok with me - never gave it a thought. Anyway, what an eye opening thread for sure...



> IMO there is no reason to intentionally breed "pet quality" horses. There are plenty of horses out there for those that want a "pet". You don't see breeders in the large horses intentianlly breeding "pets". They produce these occassionally when a cross they chose did not produce what they wanted, or threw back to a conformation or quality that was not expected or wanted.As many of the people on here have stated the only one that suffers is the horse, that is shuffled from place to place and could, not always, but could end up on a slaughter truck, or worse in some back pasture with overgrown feet, either overfed or underfed, neglected and forgotten.


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

Katiean said:


> Why do we assume that if you didn't pay a lot for a horse or there is nothing in the pedigree with a show record and someone has a mare and stud and want to breed they will surly breed junk and are damaging the breed.


I can only speak for myself, but I do not assume that at all. There are quality horses that were purchased for a song and there are horses I wouldn't have eating my hay that may have cost 5 figures. Maybe some people could confuse (my) being proud of show results and bloodlines as blindness to quality without those things, but that would be a mistake.


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt --

I would not try to convince you or anyone to purchase horses from a distance if you are not comfortable with the idea. I was not always comfortable with it, either. I bought my first long distance horse in 2001 and the willingness to look outside my immediate geographic area has really been crucial for me in building the herd I want to own.

Jill

-------------------------

*Commercial shipping prices, are a lot of time ridiculous, and in these cases, unless the horses is practically free, the cost of shipping isn't worth it.* I have actually always found the rates to be reasonable when I've had horses hauled to me. In October, Sharrway brought two foals to me 1,000 miles for only $600.

*Lot's of things can happen to a horse in a long trailer ride, and to find a shipper that has insurance that would cover every possible accident is hard, not to mention many shippers don't know a thing about horse care, they just know how to drive their truck.* Never had anything bad happen while the horse was in transit. I've had ten (10) hauled to me including foals w/o any problems to date.

*What disease is the horse bringing home with it?* None

*What didn't the seller tell me? Which I couldn't see for myself because the horse was to far away to see in person?* I'm fairly picky with my horses and I have not ever been upset with what I saw step off the trailer. I deal with reputable people, ask a lot of questions, get a lot of pictures (and sometimes video). Each time so far, when I have met the horse in person, I haven't been able to wipe the smile off my face. I've been pleased each time.

*Am I actually getting what was sold to me?* I have, ten times over now... And I've got a few bought and to come to me next year. It may sound a little goofy, but I do love the feeling knowing there are some nice horses on the way to me. It's a happy feeling


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## backwoodsnanny (Dec 4, 2007)

Well I have also read this entire thread and in defense of the statements Matt has made in many instances in our area it is not easy to find quality miniatures period. Most breeders here are able to sell whatever they want to sell. At least if they are breeding quality and dont overprice their horses. We are NOT overpopulated here yet and the breeders I know well in this state for the most part are responsible and are breeding for the betterment of the breed. What they can afford to bring into the state may be far different from what others can find right next door. I think it is very frustrating to many who would like better quality horses that the expense of bringing horses here is expensive There are always extra charges to come this far north. We are NOT on the regualr trip route. It can be done but it takes work and money and often the help of other horse people. We do not have miniature breeders at least not yet that heve 100's of minis to choose from. So often this whole discussion is confusing to anyone who lives here. There is not a mini on every corner and I hope there never will be.


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## Charley (Dec 4, 2007)

Random thought - hesitating to post - but here goes.

The real angels are the ones who love their minis for the little horses that they are....not for what they could get by breeding. The real angels are the ones who love each of their minis enough to find room for one more or pass on another mini so that they can continue to care for the minis that they have....continuing to provide adequate shelter and adequate food and regualr farrier and vet visits. The real angels rescue for the love of the miniature horse anonomously, not for the attention they get by letting others know what they do. And I am sure the real angels would tell you that they get more in return than they give.

Just my humble opinion.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 4, 2007)

backwoodsnanny said:


> Well I have also read this entire thread and in defense of the statements Matt has made in many instances in our area it is not easy to find quality miniatures period. Most breeders here are able to sell whatever they want to sell. At least if they are breeding quality and dont overprice their horses. We are NOT overpopulated here yet and the breeders I know well in this state for the most part are responsible and are breeding for the betterment of the breed. What they can afford to bring into the state may be far different from what others can find right next door. I think it is very frustrating to many who would like better quality horses that the expense of bringing horses here is expensive There are always extra charges to come this far north. We are NOT on the regular trip route. It can be done but it takes work and money and often the help of other horse people. We do not have miniature breeders at least not yet that have 100's of minis to choose from. So often this whole discussion is confusing to anyone who lives here. There is not a mini on every corner and I hope there never will be.


If this is true, and I have no reason to think it is not, then NONE of Matt's original statement has any bearing or relevance to the rest of the Mini world or to more than two or three people on this board.

We have all been defending absolutely NOTHING!!!

What a waste of time.

Please do not do this again without first explaining in detail all the circumstances involved.


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## Katiean (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt was expressing an opinion...Are you saying don't have an opinion? or just don't post your opinion if others aren't going to like it?


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## backwoodsnanny (Dec 4, 2007)

I do think that our area of the Northeast is unique in that most of us who are serious about quality miniatures are bringing them in from other parts of the country even those who have been breeding for years got their original stock from elsewhere. When we started in miniatures 7 years ago they were and for the most part still are a novelty though there are more now than a few years ago. We still get many visitors who have never seen a miniature horse other than on the internet or TV. I think the biggest herd at least that I know of in this state is 25 or less so even I sometimes have trouble finding the relevance of some of the overpopulation posts. What all of you consider quality animals there are perhaps 250 statewide. Hard for many of you to believe I know but it is true,unless there is a breeder somewhere that I dont know of. I probably should have responded sooner but was interested to read all the different takes on the subject. If I am wrong on the numbers I invite other Mainers who would know to respond and correct me.


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

The thread holds a lot of relevance, regardless of the opinion that you hold. I guess if you have a hard time looking at several topics at once, then this thread might seem pointless, because a lot of different ideas and topics are being thrown in. Yes, the posts have swayed slightly from my original point, but I think all the points posted are worth reading.


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## nootka (Dec 4, 2007)

If I were you, then, I would get together with a few reputable people, or even myself, and pool my resources.

Find one amazing mare, or two, or even two or three good mares (just don't go to poor quality for any reason, not even if you get three times as many), and hopefully one or more of them will be bred by a nice stallion (but don't count on this, as we know, being pregnant at one point is no guarantee of getting ANY foal).

Then look around for a nice stallion. Believe me, if someone had wanted my Pyro for something like that, I would have let him go intact, and he's perfectly ok to do so. Other than slightly toeing out, he's really better than many stallions (evidenced by his titles he took against older stallions as a foal, as well as common sense). I would have sold him reasonably to someone like that looking to improve the breed in their area, and I KNOW I'm not alone. I have seen gorgeous colts from Nationally titled stock, as well they are correct, for right around $1000 or even less in some cases!






Then you would have a basis to begin a breeding program of superior stock where people would be LINING UP to reserve your foals, regardless of gender. Even if they were "ok" quality, you would still be ahead of the game for price more so than we are, here.

It is just so hard for us to imagine an area where someone would pay those prices for something that is not show quality and/or has a recored behind them. Maybe for a person who doesn't know any better, seeking a particular "rare" color or some other line a sales person is giving them, but on average, it is HARD to sell even a well-bred, correct and show quality young horse. Hardest of all if it's a male, and impossible if they're already gelded.

L.


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 4, 2007)

You are very lucky to not have a mini on every corner in your part of the country. I think I would want to keep it that way also.



Mary



backwoodsnanny said:


> Well I have also read this entire thread and in defense of the statements Matt has made in many instances in our area it is not easy to find quality miniatures period. Most breeders here are able to sell whatever they want to sell. At least if they are breeding quality and dont overprice their horses. We are NOT overpopulated here yet and the breeders I know well in this state for the most part are responsible and are breeding for the betterment of the breed. What they can afford to bring into the state may be far different from what others can find right next door. I think it is very frustrating to many who would like better quality horses that the expense of bringing horses here is expensive There are always extra charges to come this far north. We are NOT on the regualr trip route. It can be done but it takes work and money and often the help of other horse people. We do not have miniature breeders at least not yet that heve 100's of minis to choose from. So often this whole discussion is confusing to anyone who lives here. There is not a mini on every corner and I hope there never will be.


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

Nootka, I am not sure who you were responding to, but I think it was me.

The thing is, I have no intention of starting a breeding program. I have one colt, who I may or may not use for breeding, but I won't be gelding him, because I prefer the extra attitude that comes with a stud, and if I choose to use him for breeding 5 or 10 years from now, I have that option. I paid good money for him and he will be a show horse. He was bred by a reputable breeder, his dam holds several world top tens, and his sire is a roan range son. If I DO breed, it will be to registered sound mares, with the intention of producing show quality offspring.

I am fairly experienced, and am surrounded by people with experience that far outstretches mine.

The thing is, that is just the direction that I choose to go.

The goal should ALWAYS be sound and functional, and to do that you need to breed sound and functional horses. But I don't believe that the goal always has to be BETTER BETTER BETTER.

The thing is, if you eliminate the good pet breeding, eventually, reasonably priced horses will be hard to find. Not tomorrow or even next year, but within some time, it would turn out that way. Because as I said before, the "pets" that are born from quality horses, CANNOT meet the demand of the vast amount of people who just want good pets.

But pet breeding isn't hurting YOUR program. Because YOU can still choose to breed to show quality if that is what you want. Your horse can't acquire faults just because their is a pet horse in a pasture down the street. You can dictate your own breeding program. The only thing that changes is that people can buy pet horses for pet prices instead of buying your show horses for show horse prices. Its great for you to say that you have no problem keeping a horse if you can't get the money you want for it, but that still leaves the interested buyer horseless. And that's where pet breeding(sound pets) has its place.


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## Katiean (Dec 4, 2007)

The thing I see is a limiting of the gene pool. I see people saying only offspring from top studs should be bred. I see buckaroo this Bond that and these are our top studs in the opinion of a lot of people. If we only breed in these lines and concentrate the blood we are going to end up with problems. People almost did away with the Blue Eyed White Netherland Dwarf rabbit that way. You do have to have outside blood to keep your blood lines fresh. Sometimes you might have to breed to a lessor quality ( but sound) and then rebuild rather than lose what we have.


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> The thing is, I have no intention of starting a breeding program. I have one colt, who I may or may not use for breeding, but I won't be gelding him, because I prefer the extra attitude that comes with a stud, and if I choose to use him for breeding 5 or 10 years from now, I have that option.


Leaving a stallion a stallion even if not to breed for the sake of the extra attitude OH!






I have a few geldings you should meet and they've got tons of attitude, fire, spunk, and everything EXCEPT those little decorations between their hind legs. I figure that their less frustrated existence and ability to socialize with my other horses justified that sacrifice.


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## nightflight (Dec 4, 2007)

Final post, then I'm outta this topic...



> The goal should ALWAYS be sound and functional, and to do that you need to breed sound and functional horses. But I don't believe that the goal always has to be BETTER BETTER BETTER.


I honestly don't know about this. Would you really want to purchase a horse from a breeder who thought "good enough" or would who want to go to someone who did the best they could? Did they really make a decision to try NOT to do better, or is it just a matter of not knowing any better? How can you tell?

In truth, most show breeders are not going to be producing the next AMHA World Champion of Champions, even if we would like to. By always going for better, better, better most are going to end up with a few stars and a lot of those sound horses - at least until we've paid our dues and really learned how to do what we want to.

I think I could get behind the for sound and functional only thought if we were a different breed - like QH's where there is a world of difference between the halter winners and the using horses. But with the mins? The horses from twenty years ago, while cute as a button, were not as a whole what many would consider functional and athletic. There were dumplings with legs. When I look at the build of the average mini horse I still think that we have a way to go before that average is really functional enough to do anything you wanted to with it - and stay sound.

It would be a shame if only those breeders who had the ability to breed that next World Champion of Champions kept trying for better horses, and everyone else just stuck with good enough. It's that overall rise in quality and having so many people trying for the best that has made those sound and athletic horses that would have gone for $10,000 twenty years ago affordable as family pets today.


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 4, 2007)

What difference should it make to another person if someone else wants to leave their horse ungelded? If he isn't used for breeding,[or even if he is] if the owner loves his disposition and he paid for him why shouldn't the person have the right to leave things as he likes them? It was that persons money that paid for the horse and he/she was buying what he/she wanted and shouldn't have to buy or do what someone else wanted. Just too many double standards with some people is how it appears. I too have 3 stallions here and love them just the way they are...sane and sensible and very trainable. [some of you who think all stallions are a pain haven't probably seen the wonderful dispositions some lines produce in not only mares but also stallions. They also can be trained just as a gelding can be trained in our experiences]] We have no problems in driving them, they don't have a fit when at parades or other functions if there happens to be a mare in heat. Will I ever geld any of them...maybe so, but it will be because of my choice not somebody telling me to do it. They do not act frustrated as some one elses stallion may act. Now, If they were a pain in the butt I just might choose to geld them but they aren't and no one needs to be telling me my stallions would be happier when anyone that knows them, knows they act pretty darn happy. I paid for them, I pay their bills and so if someone else wants to do that then they can tell me what to do with them. No person knows it all nor do they always know what they are talking about so geld your stallions if that is what YOU want to do but don't turn around and say it was too good to geld after saying there is no stallion so perfect that it wouldn't make a good gelding.....and if this doesn't apply to you than that is all wonderful and good. Am I angry...no, just giving my opinion.



Mary


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 4, 2007)

backwoodsnanny said:


> I do think that our area of the Northeast is unique in that most of us who are serious about quality miniatures are bringing them in from other parts of the country even those who have been breeding for years got their original stock from elsewhere. When we started in miniatures 7 years ago they were and for the most part still are a novelty though there are more now than a few years ago. We still get many visitors who have never seen a miniature horse other than on the Internet or TV. I think the biggest herd at least that I know of in this state is 25 or less so even I sometimes have trouble finding the relevance of some of the overpopulation posts. What all of you consider quality animals there are perhaps 250 statewide. Hard for many of you to believe I know but it is true,unless there is a breeder somewhere that I dont know of. I probably should have responded sooner but was interested to read all the different takes on the subject. If I am wrong on the numbers I invite other Mainers who would know to respond and correct me.


I completely understand, and _this_ is basically what the thread title should have been about, and not Minis in general, all over the country!!!


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

Sorry, Mary. I'm not interested in debating or exchanging ideas back and forth with you. Every time I've tried, you get upset. I think my statement was easy to understand and it's totally fine if you don't agree.


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## Buckskin gal (Dec 4, 2007)

And who said I wanted to debate with you or who said what I wrote was meant for you? Aren't you taking things a little personally when it isn't meant to be personal? I really have no idea what you are referring to OH! Everything just isn't about you even though you may think it is.



Jill said:


> Sorry, Mary. I'm not interested in debating or exchanging ideas back and forth with you. Every time I've tried, you get upset. I think my statement was easy to understand and it's totally fine if you don't agree.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 4, 2007)

> The goal should ALWAYS be sound and functional, and to do that you need to breed sound and functional horses. But I don't believe that the goal always has to be BETTER BETTER BETTER


Sorry, but if you are truly interested in breeding a specific breed of anything at all there is NO other goal.

Of course the goal has always to breed a better animal- what other possible purpose could there be, what other possible goal??

I'm sorry, you have lost me completely now.

You are not willing to actually do this yourself but you seem to think that the serious breeders, whop wish nothing more than to better the breed and to enjoy themselves thoroughly along the way, are elitist because they have goals that do not involve the equine equivalent of cheap, affordable housing??

I am NOT a government funded charity, I am a horse breeder!!

My ONLY goal is to better the breed, in every and in all ways that I possibly can.

If you want a cheap pet go and help out CMHR- they have seven "Christmas Horses" on their books and I know that "transport chains" have been set up more than once.


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

I agree, Jane (Rabbit)! If there wasn't a goal of producing better and better, and if it were not a challange, I wouldn't even want to try


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

Well I am sorry to you rabbitsfizz, because if you honestly believe that your goal is the ONLY goal, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. You should also be aware that with that attitude and tone, it is unlikely that anyone will want to hear what you have to say. You might try some humbleness.


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## backwoodsnanny (Dec 4, 2007)

I had a response all typed and lost it but the thing that fires most people up is when anyone tries to tell them what they should do with their own horses no one enjoys that. But Matt that said I have to disagree with your statement about Better. Of course we are trying to breed better and better without that ethic why would you breed at all? You said your hope is to eventually have show horses what I think is that you too will want better and better unless you are taking first place every time out. Why wouldnt you want to have something that does better? As for gelding we have stallions here who breed and some that dont we also have gelded when we thought we should as you will do. I really think a posters reaction is more to being told their horses are junk but others think theirs are elite when you have decided on a breeding stallion no one wants to hear that that choice was junk and should be gelded particularly if they have done research and have the type of stallion that they like. I have a yearling stallion here right now that may or may not be gelded he is a bit loony right now and if it continues this spring after training there is no question that he will be gelded but his brother was also loony as a yearling and now has settled and is a joy to be around. I would not have wanted anyone telling me to geld my herdsire and truthfully feel that this is what fires people up. I am for gelding what I decide should be gelded or if there are major flaws but I dont want someone else telling me what to do. I can sympathiize with those of you who live in areas where there are 1000 miniatures in a 100 mile radias and am very thankful that that is not the case here. But as I said there are not farms here with 200 miniatures only backyard breeders for the most part 2- 10 mares at most and I think that is why our market is not oversaturated and as I said before I hope it stays that way.


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

When people are responding to my post, they make it seem as though what I said was that the goal should be to breed worse and worse, which is not what I said at all, not even close. There is nothing wrong with a sound functional pet, and there is nothing wrong with reproducing sound functional pets.

If you have a mare and stud that are happy and sound, and perform what you want them to, weather it be driving or whatever, but they have a fault here and there, so they are not cut out to be a halter show horse, there is nothing wrong with reproducing them. Likely, you will reproduce something similar, a sound, functional, pet. You might get something worse or you might get something better(the gamble that EVERYONE here would agree on).

If you have a mare and stud, but there is a better stud down the road, you dont HAVE to go down the road and use the better stud, as long as yours is sound and healthy.


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> If you have a mare and stud, but there is a better stud down the road, you dont HAVE to go down the road and use the better stud, as long as yours is sound and healthy.


No one HAS to do anything, including refraining from breeding poor quality. By striving to breed for pet quality animals, you've set the bar lower than I would set it for my own program. But, then who are you to say someone else can't breed for unsound animals? It may be worse than breeding pet quality, but why is it okay for you to do what many would not, but not okay for others to do what you would not?


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## tagalong (Dec 4, 2007)

> Well I am sorry to you rabbitsfizz, because if you honestly believe that your goal is the ONLY goal, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. You should also be aware that with that attitude and tone, it is unlikely that anyone will want to hear what you have to say. You might try some humbleness.



*Matt* - I have stayed out of the last few pages of this thread in part because of your at times rather condescending and contemptuous tone - as noted above. The goal of dedicated breeders should _always_ be to improve - the only time money is the ONLY factor IMO is the way some are breeding to sell whatever they get as cute pets - and anything else is not considered. If it is cute... and cheap - sell it. Oh - a pretty colour will help.



> If you have a mare and stud, but there is a better stud down the road, you dont HAVE to go down the road and use the better stud, as long as yours is sound and healthy.


If you had a better stallion available just down the road - one that could IMPROVE on your mare... why not use him instead of the lesser stallion?? That makes more sense to me. And yes - breeding is always a gamble - so why not seek to improve your odds instead of settling for whatever...

_Sadly, sadly mistaken, huh_ .... well I have worked in the horse industry for 20 years - not owned my own place or had my own herd - but worked for others - in a variety of disciplines and breeds. As such I have a different take on things - from the inside without being "involved" in the ownership etc. And the aim was ALWAYS to improve and get better and better. Along the way, sometimes horses sold for $$$$$$$$$$$$ - and sometimes only $$$ or $. And every one of the breeders/farms I have worked for had "pets" (if you can call a 16.3 HH Warmblood a pet) that fell short of the Better And Better goal - and thus sold for much less and found excellent, screened homes...

In all these years - and the years before that when I worked part-time.... I never foaled out a baby and had the owners immediately speculate how much they could get for him/her. *Better?* was the question and the main consideration - not *$$$$$$$$$$$$$?!!? *

If the goal was not to improve - than all the expense... all the headaches and heartaches... would be pointless - as at most levels you rarely get back what you put into any breeding program. Once in a while you might get a $$$$$$$$$$$$$$ that will help someone else improve on their breeding and/or shine as a stellar performance horse and an example of your breeding program. But those very expensive horses are rare - as most people in the horse industry know all too well...


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

Why do people automatically associate "pet quality" with "poor quality"...?


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

BECAUSE Pet Quality is less than what is considered BREEDING quality.

Think about this -- Do dogs sold as "pet quality" come with AKC breeding rights? NO. But ones sold as breeding quality do.


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## HGFarm (Dec 4, 2007)

For those that dont show because AMHA and AMHR is all of that political crap, etc..... ??!!

I would have several questions to ask about that. Have you ever shown with either registry? If so, what horse were you showing? How did it TRULY stack up against the others being shown?

Political? You might see some of that anywhere, but I will tell you that I am a nobody in the show ring. I cant afford a professional trainer, nor do I want one. I enjoy working with the horses myself- sort of a self satisfaction thing I guess.

I have done ok in the ring, even occasionally beating out those ones with a pro handler on the end of the lead and this year brought home a Top Ten (my very first placing ever) from Nationals this year. I show because I ENJOY it- not because I am out to beat the champions in the ring. If I can't consistantly beat them, should that mean I should just blame it on politics and stay home and not do what I truly love doing? I'm not in to cutting off my own nose to spite my face- I take it all as a learning experience for me and what I am doing in the ring (right and wrong) and also take a good hard look at what I am showing in there.

If folks in the dog world stopped breeding and spayed and neutered everything out there because there were too many and the market fell, there would soon be no more of that breed. Blame the puppy mills and just plain careless backyard breeders who breed that female every heat because they can pocket a few bucks, or dont look at the quality of what they are breeding -because Elsa is just wonderful with the kids she should have pups. This is a big contributor as to how and why the market does get flooded and the QUALITY goes down.

It is hard enough, trying to breed the best to the best and get decent offspring, it does not help when folks are breeding less than correct and healthy to each other, and expecting something marketable.

For those that just want to have fun with their pets? There are PLENTY of animals out there needing good homes that are affordable and of decent quality from great parents, without breeding crappy to crappy to make another one.


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## tagalong (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Why do people automatically associate "pet quality" with "poor quality"...?


Where did I do that?

Pet quality is not always, necessarily poor - although as I said pages ago that one webaite breeding for pet minis had poor quality mares. And the stallion was not much better. By simple form to function considerations - not just my wanting to see a specific "type" ... but again - the colour was the most important factor. And "pet".

As I also said pages ago - we have sold/given away "pets" to good homes that were of excellent quality... even some who had had VERY successful show campaigns. And now they are happy, loved pets. Who could easily still show well - but they have a different life.

The 16.3 HH Warmblood gelding I used as an example was not of poor quality - he was just not indicative of the Better and Better goal. There was nothing at all wrong with that particular individual - he was just not Better than his sire. And he (and many of his relatives) went on to successful, talented careers - and happy lives.

ETA:



> Think about this -- Do dogs sold as "pet quality" come with AKC breeding rights? NO. But ones sold as breeding quality do.


Unfortunately, Jill... even many sold as breeding quality - by breeders who do not really care about Better - shoudl not be bred. But yes - every purebred dog I have had was sold as Pet Quality/Non-breeding - and I would not have dealt with any breeder who did anything less... or who showed little concern for Better.


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## Mona (Dec 4, 2007)

Jill said:


> BECAUSE Pet Quality is less than what is considered BREEDING quality.
> 
> Think about this -- Do dogs sold as "pet quality" come with AKC breeding rights? NO. But ones sold as breeding quality do.



Sorry, but that statement in and of itself is NOT true. Papers do not senote the quality of a dog. Many breeders sell top show quality dogs on non-breeding/limited registration. Not because they are not worthy of reproducing, but because they would rather see their dog in a good *pet* home rather than to be used for breeding.

On the other end of that spectrum, there are millions of very, VERY poor quality dogs, some even non-purebred being sold as breeders, WITH papers!

Pets do not mean they are of poor quality. A person can raise quality, well conformed horses as pets.


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

Well I disagree, I think there are a lot of reasons you wouldn't breed a horse, but that doesn't always mean it is poor quality. I get the impression many people think that there are only two types of horses, those that you would breed and show, those are the good quality horses, and those that you wouldn't breed or show, those are the poor quality......

I see the spectrum much wider than that, with many more options at the different levels, depending on what you want out of a horse.

And to me, dogs aren't a great example. My family dog was a mut, which cost about $100. We could never have afforded a purebred with the much higher price tag. Lots of people breed for pet dogs. I don't know any family that has a "show" dog, and very few that have purebreds, most have muts. Friendly family dogs....

And to answer your question, because I don't know anyone in the dog show business, and very few with purebreds, I know nothing bout the AKC or which dogs come with papers, etc.


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## Katiean (Dec 4, 2007)

BIG farms will breed 20,30 and even more mares to get that show string. Most of those foals do not make it into their show string for what ever reason. It is My opinion that what others are saying is that the small guy that breeds 1 or 2 mares and may or may not get a show foal (just because he only has 1 or 2 mares) is the problem. I think (JMO) what can be brought from this thread is most posters (and don't hang me for my opinion) think that the big farms dumping all the sound but not show foals on the market are blameless in this because it is the way THEY make their money. Well, No matter how hard you try you do not get a show foal (or better horse) from the same mare and stud every time. These foals then flood the market. I don't see how you can say that the little guy is ruining the breed because he is breeding the best he has access to. I do not know anyone that can afford $1,000 stud fee. And if that is what constitutes a responsible breeder Than count me out of that catagory. Personally, I did not breed for next year and might not breed for 09. But I won't be spending more than $500 for a stud fee. I will find the best I can afford. I will look for what goes best with my mare. But, it may or may not be better then what I have now. I do not like to sell my horses because I can not be sure I was right in approving a home for my horse. That being said, I think we need to make a bit of room for the small guy and quit figuring he is breeding just to get the foal crop to sell and does not know what he is doing just because he only has a couple. I think this year especially, look at the deminishing open spaces, cost of feed, cost of just living, the number of homes getting reposesed (not because they don't have jobs. intrest went up). There are a lot of reasons for the number of horses on the market. It isn't because of 1 or 2 foals. It isn't because I did not geld my stud. If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.


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## Mona (Dec 4, 2007)

Also, I want to add, that I feel that sometimes people get lost, or blinded by a famous stallion, and they think that every foal sired by that horse should remain "whole" I strongly disagree and feel that just because a horse (stallion, specifically) is so well known, so successful in both the breeding barn and show ring, this does not make every single one of his foals worthy or breeding.

Take Buckeroo for example...this is a GORGEOUS stallion, that has proven his worth over and over as a *major* contributor to the betterment of the Miniature Horse Breed as a whole, yet of his 324 reg'd offspring as shown in the AMHA online studbook, there were 164 MALE offspring, of which only 2, yes *TWO* of those are reg'd as geldings!! I know he is a darned good stallion, but I also feel that people get on the bandwagon buying horses with maybe less than desireable conformation because they are a direct son or daughter of such a famous stallion,(not just Buckeroo, but all stallions in general, I just picked him because he is well known) and they are more willing to overlook more conformation flaws in those particular offspring that they may not overlook if it were the same horse of a different or even unknown bloodline. So I just don't get it why some people do that?? If a horse has copnformation faults, it should not matter what bloodline he is from, or who is parents are. If you would not use that horse for breeding if it was one found out in someones back yard, then you should not use it no matter what.

That at least, is MY opinion. I just feel that this happens far too often.


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## tagalong (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Well I disagree, I think there are a lot of reasons you wouldn't breed a horse, but that doesn't always mean it is poor quality.


But why breed anything that is of poor quality?? Why?



> I get the impression many people think that there are only two types of horses, those that you would breed and show, those are the good quality horses, and those that you wouldn't breed or show, those are the poor quality......


Not true. No one said anything of the sort.



> I see the spectrum much wider than that, with many more options at the different levels, depending on what you want out of a horse.


\
The spectrum *is *wider - as many of us have been trying to tell you. And yet again the question remains - why deliberately use some lesser quality breeding stock and make that spectrum narrower? A horse does not have to be shown to be of quality. But lack of quality - as many of us have seen - does not need to passed on to make $$$$$ in the "pet" market.

Any old Lab was bred to any old Standard Poodle to get in on that Labradoodle craze. Puppies were selling for thousands - so some said QUICK - let's get some of that cash!! And quality be d.a.m.n.ed... and so it was. A recent rescue in the PNW had to deal with over 40 Labradoodles and Goldendoodles.... the "breeder" was POed that the "market" had fallen and simply dumped all her "beloved" dogs... uh huh.

Better? No. $$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$?? You bet.



> And to me, dogs aren't a great example. My family dog was a mut, which cost about $100. We could never have afforded a purebred with the much higher price tag. Lots of people breed for pet dogs.I don't know any family that has a "show" dog, and very few that have purebreds, most have muts. Friendly family dogs....


Well imagine this - purebreds can be - and are - family friendly dogs as well. I have had both.

I do dog sports - flyball, agility... and mutts race alongside the purebreds.

Cockapoos are "mutts" and yet I saw puppies selling for $1200...

And thus puppy mills - breeding only for PETS and the almighty $ - came to be.



> If a horse has copnformation faults, it should not matter what bloodline he is from, or who is parents are. If you would not use that horse for breeding if it was one found out in someones back yard, then you should not use it no matter what.
> That at least, is MY opinion. I just feel that this happens far too often.


Yes it does, *Mona* - I agree.


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

Katiean, thank you for your post. You articulated precisely what I was trying to say, in a much better way!

Nice to know I am not the only one who feels this way.

And tagalong, I NEVER suggested breeding "poor" quality, as I DON"T consider the functional family pet, that makes a great driving horse, or cleans up in the local performance classes, "poor" quality.

And to answer your question rabbitsizz, I don't see "mediocre" classes at horse shows, but not everyone has a mini for the purpose of showing. In fact, Mini owners who DO show at those type of show are the MINORITY in the world of mini horse owners.


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## misfitminis (Dec 4, 2007)




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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Well I am sorry to you rabbitsfizz, because if you honestly believe that your goal is the ONLY goal, then you are sadly, sadly mistaken. You should also be aware that with that attitude and tone, it is unlikely that anyone will want to hear what you have to say. You might try some humbleness.


It is not _my_ statement- there is absolutely nothing new or mind boggling about a statement as simple as this!!

It is the one thing that binds all enthusiasts of any living thing together.

When did you last attend a show in which there was a class for mediocre animals???

The only goal of breeding anything is to produce the best possible example of that "whatever" that you possibly can.

That is as simple as I can make it- Rose breeders, Bee Keepers, Dog Breeders, anyone who breeds should have the betterment and furtherment of the breed at heart - otherwise they are "puppy mills" and worse.

So why would you want to breed mediocre animals when it costs as much as breeding really top class ones, unless simply because, by buying two mediocre animals and shoving them in a field together and not bothering with any of the care those hifaluting show animals need, you can make money (and since you have already stated you are not breeding you can see this is NOT a personal attack!!)

Surely you can understand, by the number of times you have had it explained by various people , that since the rest of the country is snowed under with $40.00 foals going through auctions, breeding for less than the very best would appear to be pointless??


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 4, 2007)

Katiean said:


> There are a lot of reasons for the number of horses on the market. It isn't because of 1 or 2 foals. It isn't because I did not geld my stud. If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.


Breeding should not be for everyone if you think about it. Having nothing to do with money but with those dedicated, willing to lose a horse to gain one and hope it is better then the parents. When it goes great it is wonderful when it doesnt it is a gruesome site that you cant get out of your mind for years if even then.

I have heard well I cant afford to geld - well if you cant afford to geld then you cant afford to breed a vet call for a dystocia and perhaps losing a mare and or foal is way more expensive then gelding.

I always hear it is the big breeders not those of us breeding 1-2 foals a year well HELLO all it takes is a few breeding 1-2 a year and you have now produced as much as a "large farm"

Bottom line is if you breed even one foal you are a breeder and if you breed even one foal the reality while it isnt pretty is that you are contributing to the over population of horses.

And before anyone gets panties in a bunch I am including myself in that and due to that have decieded to no longer breed at least not any time in the near future.


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## tagalong (Dec 4, 2007)

> And tagalong, I NEVER suggested breeding "poor" quality, as I DON"T consider the functional family pet, that makes a great driving horse, or cleans up in the local performance classes, "poor" quality.


And yet AGAIN I have to repeat the POOR quality We Supple Cute Colourful Foals For Pets farm that I have mentioned.

A great driving horse - that is poorly put together - should still not be bred IMO> And I can think of a stellar driving stallion who is a horror to look at standing still (and thus has never been in a halter class



) As far as I know - none of his get have had anything near his kind of success. Ergo - should he have been bred? No, IMO. He would be just as spectacular of a driving horse as a gelding with his movement - and the poor conformation he has passed on at times would have stopped with him.

*Better* should always be the bottom line. Better. Better conformation. Better form to function. Better performance.

_Breed the best to the best... hope for the best... and drive the rest..._ or so some have said.



There is nothing wrong with having fun with minis in a variety of ways - but not seeing breeding as a goal for Better just makes me



...

*Katjean*... the amount of a stud fee is not the point. There may be good stallions out there breeding well for many small breeders. But they are of QUALITY.

Look at farm websites. I do not care what size of farm you have or how many foals you produce - when your goal is to breed ONLY for "mediocre" as that is what you are starting out with (or less - no matter what bloodlines or who the grandsire was) then you are doing the breed - and yourself - a disservice. Of course - breeding the best to the best does not guarantee the best... but if you start out with something of better quality your odds of winning that gamble increase. Breeding _good to good _ - whether shown or not - gives you a far better chance of success than starting with _poor to mediocre. _

But now I am simply repeating myself... and at that point it is best to stop typing...


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## Warpony (Dec 4, 2007)

Katiean said:


> If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.



Only if the only reason to own them is to breed.

This is the only breed I have ever been involved in where I have seen opinions like this, and it boggles my mind. I really do not understand it. In quarter horses or arabians or anything else no one would suggest that if someone can't have a stallion than that breed is only for the elite. BREEDING may only be for the "elite" in that case but that does not mean that it makes the entire breed only for the elite just because not everyone could have a stallion in their barn.


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## Katiean (Dec 4, 2007)

So Lisa, YOU have the right to breed miniature Horses and I Don't because I am on a fixed income? Very interesting...


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 4, 2007)

HUH?


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## TriggynBluenDaisy Too (Dec 4, 2007)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> Katiean said:
> 
> 
> > There are a lot of reasons for the number of horses on the market. It isn't because of 1 or 2 foals. It isn't because I did not geld my stud. If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.
> ...


Oh Lisa now just stop it! You are being sensible and coherent and I'll have none of that nonsense.


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## ohmt (Dec 4, 2007)

> QUOTE(Katiean @ Dec 4 2007, 03:50 PM)
> If all classes of buyers are not given access to stud ownership then the breed is for the elite only.
> 
> Only if the only reason to own them is to breed.
> ...


















Why does everyone think that they HAVE to breed the horses they have? I think all new owners should start with geldings. Figure things out...go to shows....LEARN. Then maybe people wouldn't be so adament about breeding everything. More likely than not a high quality stallion isn't going to be offered for dirt cheap. If they were then...well... where would our breed be? Where would any breed be?


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

I swear... Are some of you reading these posts with decoder rings or something??? Some of the responses I am reading are out of left field. No one has even implied some of the things certain ones of you want to pretend have been said.


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## maestoso (Dec 4, 2007)

Tagalong, you obviously have no idea what it takes to make a good driving horse. The sport of driving is not meant for the "rest" (those not good enough for halter classes, as you insinuate) it takes a lot of athleticism to be a great driving horse and some of the best world champion halter horses don't have it.

Your one example of a driving horse who isn't reproducing is not enough to prove the point your trying to make.

A top driving horse has just as much a chance to reproduce his driving qualities as a halter horse has at reproducing their halter qualities.

The best halter conformation doesnt make the best performance conformation. For example, perfectly straight hind legs is actually a disadvantage in the jumper ring, as the angles of cow hocks gives the horse more of a foundation and better use of its hind end power. Reiners prefer sickle hocked horses because they are better able to get those sliding stops and quick pivots. It works the same way for the various sports involved in miniatures(driving and performance).

And though there will always be ignorant people, there are plenty of experienced people who DO know the difference between cute and quality. Not being a show prospect, doesnt make a horse poor quality.

Breeding shouldn't be for EVERYONE, but it shouldn't just be for those of you who have top show horses either. There is a middle ground. There are experienced, and informed people who dont show, dont have top show horses, and do want to breed. And I think that is a great experience for those people, who can do it with the horses best health and safety interest in mind.

And luckily, many of those people are not intimidated and they have their minds of their own, so they will continue to enjoy their horses and their hobby, and breed if they choose, while those who think they are too good for "pet quality" whine about it.


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 4, 2007)

Jill said:


> I swear... Are some of you reading these posts with decoder rings or something??? Some of the responses I am reading are out of left field. No one has even implied some of the things certain ones of you want to pretend have been said.


I have to agree......I don't see where some are really reading what others are saying. It's like the Forum on crack.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 4, 2007)

Katiean said:


> So Lisa, YOU have the right to breed miniature Horses and I Don't because I am on a fixed income? Very interesting...


I would have to second Carol and third Jill and say HUH? gues I must need one of those decoder rings for the forum. I must have bought the wrong box of cereal this week


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## skanzler (Dec 4, 2007)

Boy, I have to agree with Vertial Limits.... This is like reading a novel that just keeps going in circles..... It is making me dizzy going round and round and round and round and round....anyone else getting vertigo?


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## Katiean (Dec 4, 2007)

Lisa, You said only a few people should be able to breed. I was assuming you would consider yourself one of those. But things you said made me think that since I do not have a lot of money you felt I should not breed my horses as surly they would not be of quality since I did not pay thousands for them.


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 4, 2007)

Katiean said:



> Lisa, You said only a few people should be able to breed. I was assuming you would consider yourself one of those


Lisa said:



> And before anyone gets panties in a bunch I am including myself in that and due to that have decieded to no longer breed at least not any time in the near future.


What the heck? People are making too many "assumptions" here. This is turning into a comedy......If you can't bother really reading what someone else has to say then you shouldn't bother posting....especially if you are directing your post at them.

Yep, crack...............


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 4, 2007)

I don't know anyone on this forum and am not a breeder nor do I want to be. Actually, I wish everyone would lay off breeding so much. What I think is ticking people off in this discussion is a certain few that seem to think they are the only ones capable of breeding "properly". I don't really even think breeding is the topic anymore, it's just people ticked at the attitudes.

I'm sure the elite few have some very nice horses but get off your "high horse" and realize that others may have nice horses too. You don't have the monopoly on them. GEEEZ!!!


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## Jill (Dec 4, 2007)

People don't always realize that when someone's happy with what they have, it does not mean they look down on what another has. Hand in hand with that thought is you shouldn't let anyone else's success take away from your own. I think some people take their own jealousy and twist it outward at others.


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## Katiean (Dec 4, 2007)

Right on Matt.


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## Mona (Dec 4, 2007)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I have not been reading this thread much.. BUT... I had our LB Technicians come up with this LB Forum Decoder Ring... He promises if you come to a message thread that gets a bit goofy on the forum, you just slip this ring on your middle finger, go outside and YELL to the top of your lungs, come back to the LB Forum and everything should make sense again..
> 
> We are selling these SPECIAL Decoder Rings for a small price of $99.95 per ring + $19.95 shipping. All profits go to ME.
> 
> ...



LOL!! Good one Mary Lou!!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 4, 2007)

ML no wonder I couldnt find the magic ring.. I was looking on the back of cereal boxes now I know where I can get one and SUCH A BARGIN TO


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## ChrystalPaths (Dec 4, 2007)

Mary Lou..you are the best!



Excellent post..love the ring...I'd be happy to carry an unlimited supply on the Path...heaven knows we all could use this splendid ring. OH!

(seriously ML..that was GREAT!



)


----------



## Buckskin gal (Dec 4, 2007)

Assumptions for sure!!


----------



## tagalong (Dec 4, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Tagalong, you obviously have no idea what it takes to make a good driving horse. The sport of driving is not meant for the "rest" (those not good enough for halter classes, as you insinuate) it takes a lot of athleticism to be a great driving horse and some of the best world champion halter horses don't have it.


Well - you are wrong and making such obvious (and inaccurate) assumptions about me - and my experience - that I can only smile and shake my head....



... so I'll do my best to forget all those CDE weekends, dressage jobs etc.

_Breed the best to the best and drive the rest_ simply means that if your horse is not a halter specimen - you can still enjoy them and have fun and be successful - why did you choose to see it as a slam? It isn't. I did not _insinuate _ anything. You only seem to want to find fault...



> Your one example of a driving horse who isn't reproducing is not enough to prove the point your trying to make.


It was just an example - I was not trying to _prove_ anything. _Yeeeeesh. _







> A top driving horse has just as much a chance to reproduce his driving qualities as a halter horse has at reproducing their halter qualities.


Of course - but that one horse never has - not to his level of success. Just as some halter horses have never produced anything that equals or surpasses them.



> The best halter conformation doesnt make the best performance conformation. For example, perfectly straight hind legs is actually a disadvantage in the jumper ring, as the angles of cow hocks gives the horse more of a foundation and better use of its hind end power. Reiners prefer sickle hocked horses because they are better able to get those sliding stops and quick pivots. It works the same way for the various sports involved in miniatures(driving and performance).


Actually - a slightly steep croup is more desireable in jumpers than cow hocks - as countless Warmblood breeders have stated. But then, different breeders look for different things. I was only suggesting that we should try to aim for the best of all qualities in our horses - the all-around type... form to function. Performance and conformation. The perfect horse does not exist... and never will. But we can try to find him. We have been fortunate enough to have horses achieve both halter and driving championships - as have many others. Who knew that was a bad thing to aim for....







> And though there will always be ignorant people, there are plenty of experienced people who DO know the difference between cute and quality. Not being a show prospect, doesnt make a horse poor quality.


_As I said in previous posts_ - there are excellent horses out there who will never see a show. But that is not always the case - and a tour around assorted farm websites will show you that. A show prospect does not have to show - but he/she can still be put together in the right way... yep - have to say it again - form to function. Good conformation has a_ purpose_. It is not just cosmetic.



> Breeding shouldn't be for EVERYONE, but *it shouldn't just be for those of you who have top show horses either.* There is a middle ground. There are experienced, and informed people who dont show, dont have top show horses, and do want to breed. And I think that is a great experience for those people, who can do it with the horses best health and safety interest in mind.


*Bolding mine.* No one ever said that and yet that is thrown out over and over and over again. One last time... quality counts. And just any old "herd sire" who should have been a gelding and any old badly put together mare should not be bred - for fun... for profit... for pets... for show... for any reason. Start with the odds in your favour - not already against you.

I wish that minis had evaluations the way that other breeds - especially in Eurupe - do. There are very few "middle-ground" and no poor quality breeding stock allowed in the stud books and everyone truly has a goal of bettering the breed... at every level.



> And luckily, many of those people are not intimidated and they have their minds of their own, so they will continue to enjoy their horses and their hobby, and breed if they choose, while those who think they are too good for "pet quality" whine about it.


Seriously? Wow. No one was "intimidating" anyone. Where??!!

IMO any perceived "whining" is coming from those who say anyone can breed anything and should do so and Not Just The Elite (whoever they have decided the Elite to be - it certainly is not us) and that the Elite are only in it for $$$$$$$$$$ and no other reason and Don't You Forget It!!



And obviously you do not actually READ any posts but your own in detail - or you would have noted that I and others have said that we have had pet quality horses - very nice ones - even ex-show horses - and found them excellent homes... but never mind.... round and round it goes...



... and everyone will do as they please... and some will keep pointing fingers... and so on and so on...

But when some of us are actually SNEERED at for wanting to better the breed... in all aspects....







> I'm sure the elite few have some very nice horses but get off your "high horse" and realize that others may have nice horses too. You don't have the monopoly on them. GEEEZ!!!


I saw no one on any High Horse. And No One said that others did not have nice horses.... oy.





[SIZE=8pt]My head hurts. [/SIZE]

And who exactly are these Elite Few, anyway??



:



> What the heck? People are making too many "assumptions" here. This is turning into a comedy......If you can't bother really reading what someone else has to say then you shouldn't bother posting....especially if you are directing your post at them.


Well said, *Carol*.

*Mary Lou* - you accept PayPal? Great - I'll take a decoder ring for each finger. And toe.


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## Marty (Dec 5, 2007)

Dad gum! Yalls are good!

I took off for the past 24 hours Christmasin the house up, and looky here, yalls are up to page 12 already.

Just can't seem to figure out what the heck anyone is talking about


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## susanne (Dec 5, 2007)

Can anyone say "TROLL?"

Actually, I wish that were the case...

After slogging my way through this entire thread (blurry eyes and all), I've gone from wonder to total incredulity to shrieking with hysterical laughter.

Mary Lou, I was going to order one of your Decoder Rings, but your post led me to believe that you are an elitist and think that your Decoder Rings are better than the rest. I'm going to buy one from my neighbor who sells them for $19.95. Hers don't work, don't fit, and don't look very nice, but they're just as worthy as yours!


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## Jill (Dec 5, 2007)

Looking at the decoder ring, do they come with *purple* centers? Either the kind that Mary Lou sells, or the kind that Susanne's neighbor sells that don't really work or fit well. I really like purple.


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## slv (Dec 5, 2007)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UkPgwZZRKnU

Okay, time for some cheer. I say watch this and chill out. Make sure your volume is up. SMILE!!!!


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 5, 2007)

QUOTE

I'm sure the elite few have some very nice horses but get off your "high horse" and realize that others may have nice horses too. You don't have the monopoly on them. GEEEZ!!!

I saw no one on any High Horse. And No One said that others did not have nice horses.... oy. 

My head hurts.

And who exactly are these Elite Few, anyway?? :

I wasn't referring to you as "the elite few" so don't get all flattered ..lol. And I will not be naming names. As I said, I am not a breeder nor ever will be but it's the horse ower that has the call to make as to whether to breed or not. I also said, I wish everyone would slack up on breeding. I am all for GELDING, GELDING, GELDING but I can't stop what other people do.


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## Minimor (Dec 5, 2007)

Oh dear, no wonder my head is aching, after reading through these last how many pages.

The problem is, too many people are saying things, or implying things, and then they turn around and say they never said those things, or at least didn't mean those things. I was going to post a couple times, but if no one is saying or meaning what I read them to be saying or thought they might be meaning...I gave up.

The decorder rings of Mary Lou's do look lovely (or not) but I don't know. They don't cost $2000 so are they really worth having? Or does price not matter if they aren't for breeding? Doesn't matter, this week I really can't afford one of them, which I guess means I don't deserve to own one of them. So, I will have to just remain in the dark about what y'alls are really saying. Happily.

In any case, I suspect that a few swigs of tequila would be just as effective as the decoder ring, plus I'd earn Air Miles for my tequila purchase.


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## TriggynBluenDaisy Too (Dec 5, 2007)

Minimor said:


> ...
> 
> The decorder rings of Mary Lou's do look lovely (or not) but I don't know. They don't cost $2000 so are they really worth having? Or does price not matter if they aren't for breeding? Doesn't matter, this week I really can't afford one of them, which I guess means I don't deserve to own one of them. So, I will have to just remain in the dark about what y'alls are really saying. Happily.
> 
> In any case, I suspect that a few swigs of tequila would be just as effective as the decoder ring, plus I'd earn Air Miles for my tequila purchase.









Baily's and coffee worked for me but hey you forgot about gelding that ring too for good measure.



It was almost making sense until I passed out and woke up drooling on the keyboard this morning.



But it would be nice to have a decoder ring around for so many other future threads. ML please put me down for a case.


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## Shari (Dec 5, 2007)

Marty said:


> Dad gum! Yalls are good!
> 
> I took off for the past 24 hours Christmasin the house up, and looky here, yalls are up to page 12 already.
> 
> Just can't seem to figure out what the heck anyone is talking about



They pretty much lost me too.



Though the Decoder rings look pretty cool!! <LOL>


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 5, 2007)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> We are selling these SPECIAL Decoder Rings for a small price of $99.95 per ring + $19.95 shipping. All profits go to ME.
> 
> BUT wait, if you order your ring today and pay by PayPal, you get it at half price of $49.95 and we will ship FREE!
> 
> How many you want??


After "reading" this thread I'll take 10. You know......one for each finger. Anyone out there want to argue about the number of fingers.........OOOPPPPPPSSSSSSSSSSS! Sorry........8 fingers and 2 thumbs. Must be precise so someone doesn't have a meltdown.






Ordering thru Pay Pal.............Please hurry.........My brain is fried.


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## Relic (Dec 5, 2007)

Oh l'm so glad you caught and corrected yourself because in my book people have always had 8 fingers and 2 thumbs...the thumbs don't and shouldn't really be rated as fingers...JMO


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 5, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Tag along, you obviously have no idea what it takes to make a good driving horse. The sport of driving is not meant for the "rest" (those not good enough for halter classes, as you insinuate) it takes a lot of athleticism to be a great driving horse and some of the best world champion halter horses don't have it.
> 
> Your one example of a driving horse who isn't reproducing is not enough to prove the point your trying to make.
> 
> ...


Thanks for that load of codswallop dressed up Matt it has given me the first real laugh of the day.

I actually laughed out loud!!

Marylou I'll take eight of those rings (one for each finger I do not wear thumb rings- does that make me elitist???



)

Do they translate or do I need a separate ring for translating rubbish into understandable English??


----------



## Katiean (Dec 5, 2007)

I can't believe that a person can not express an opinion with out being laughed at.



Shame on you all for making a joke out of an opinion just because it isn't your own.


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## nootka (Dec 5, 2007)

I'm probably not good enough to be elitist, but I will wear my decoder.

My show horses are pets and my pets are show horses.

They are interchangeable and I'd like to think the quality of my herd ranges from mediocre to very nice quality.

I have a mare that's somewhat mediocre-poor, but her foals are so much nicer than herself. Even so, I've decided not to breed her anymore, maybe ever, but for now, I am only breeding my nicer quality mare.

The thing is that better quality pets are a good thing. Who needs to breed only for poor or mediocre quality? Breed for the best and our best keep getting better. The benefit is that the "pets" will be nicer to look at, sounder and more desirable overall.

A true horseman would have it no other way, rather than getting offended because nobody wants to give away their good quality horses as pets only.

L.


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## maestoso (Dec 5, 2007)

No worries Katiean....... I am happy with my opinion, my horse, my choices, actions, beliefs, and opinions. I am secure in my experience and knowledge.

And I don't have to try to make others opinions look "stupid" to express my own.

My "codswallop" has earned me plenty of opportunities, recognition, and awards, and I certainly am not out to prove myself on this board.

Rabbitsfizz has chosen to focus her attention on bashing other's opinions rather than trying to express her own, weather that is because she doesn't know how to express her own, or because she actually WANTS to portray herself in that childish manner, I don't know, and frankly, don't care.... In trying to make me look , um, "misinformed" she has showed that she is an expert at arguing like a 3 year old.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 5, 2007)

Do you actually read this Forum???

I can be accused of a number of things but not being able to express an opinion.......





I have to say I have never heard that one before!!

Matt, you stick you your own opinions, that way you can be safe and sure that no-one will ever change your mind.

I shall stick to my decoder ring- I sure need it in this thread, I can tell you.


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## nightflight (Dec 5, 2007)

oh nevermind...


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 5, 2007)

> My "codswallop" has earned me plenty of opportunities, recognition, and awards, and I certainly am not out to prove myself on this board.













I just had my coffee come out of my nose OH! .

First off I read the initial post that started this "comedy" and I said from the get go "WHAT THE #$%^ is that all about. One minute saying something, next sentence mitigating what was just said



.

You sound like some people I have know in the past, many of us here knew in the past....

Can I ask what the intent was of your initital post? It's certainly not clear to me at all





Mary Lou, can I order a bushel of those rings and I will pass them around to whoever wants to read this thread?





I haven't laughed this hard in a long time. No need to get into the Christmas eggnog







> I am happy with my opinion, my horse, my choices, actions, beliefs, and opinions. I am secure in my experience and knowledge


Good for you, can I than ask sincerely what is the point of your post? because your initial post sounds extremely defensive, condescending and I have no clue why, and on top of that not much of makes sense after the initial sentences. It's a work of contradictions JMHO and it went downhill pretty darn fast from there.


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## tagalong (Dec 5, 2007)

*Matt*... just a suggestion - you sneer at the experience of others - and yet pat yourself on the back for your expertise. You are still young as I recall (?)... and with experience comes some degree of humility. A bit of that would serve you well - and I am saying that kindly. You seem to care very little for the opinions of others - unless they agree with you wholeheartedly. This is a message board - all opinions matter, all opinions count. ALL OF THEM. That is what makes a discussion - and that is how we all learn. It might help in such instances to avoid resorting to the condescension, sneering, contempt and outright insults.

A true horseman never stops learning... and listening. And after 20 years of working "backstage" ... I am still learning. You should never be so "secure" in your knowledge and experience (as you said) that you summarily dismiss _anything_. That is a very elitist (seeing as that word gets tossed around so airily) outlook... and poor horsemanship.



> And I don't have to try to make others opinions look "stupid" to express my own.


But you _have.... _





You already haughtily deduced (incorrectly) that I was clueless about driving horses, dressage etc. ....



yep - you said it was obvious... I had to smile.



> My show horses are pets and my pets are show horses.They are interchangeable and I'd like to think the quality of my herd ranges from mediocre to very nice quality.
> 
> I have a mare that's somewhat mediocre-poor, but her foals are so much nicer than herself.


Same here, *nootka*. The show horses become pets and the pets go show. The grandest show horse on the farm is now the biggest pet.



We have some mediocre "pet" pasture art. Some good quality. Some outstanding. A mix. And we have "pets" out there in happy homes who were not only affordable - even by Matt's standards - but some were free. Selling them for $$$$$$$ was not the issue - but placing them in a good home was. They are sound. Healthy. Happy. And not poor quality... or anywhere close to it...

Off to do that stall cleaning thing ... this elitist life is so grand and all...







> Would you shop with the "elite" breeders if they had something in your price range, or would you skip them, since they breed for show and you are looking for a pet?


I'll take a swing at this from the breeder's side of things. This is a small herd. We do not advertise. And we have had many high quality show horsesover the years. And yet many people seek us out for pets - and have found one here... often a horse off the show string has caught their eye - and they end up buying that horse... and I usually deliver it after things have checked out. For pet prices - not the "show price"... so in our experience, yes - people do come here shopping for pets... and I do the follow up... stay in touch... answer questions... visit to make sure that all is well... etc.


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## Minimor (Dec 5, 2007)

> So those looking for the sound pet horses, does seeing a horse advertised as a show horse make you not even look twice? Would you shop with the "elite" breeders if they had something in your price range, or would you skip them, since they breed for show and you are looking for a pet?


I have to say that if I'm horse shopping--regardless of what I'm shopping for I don't put a whole lot of stock in what a horse is advertised as. I've seen so many "show prospect" or "show potential" or "born to show" horses that are so NOT what I consider a show horse. I've even seen some show ring winners (even some big titles) that I've looked at and wondered how on earth that horse won anything. 
I don't generally shop for pets (they just seem to pop up & be so irrisitable that I bring one home even though that wasn't what I was looking for!) and so I don't actually look at ads that say "pet quality".

what do I look for? A pretty horse that has the conformation that I like--good sound conformation that is functionally strong--a horse that looks like it can move, and then proves that yes, it actually CAN move (and many show horses, even the winning ones, cannot move--another reason I do not look specifically for show horses)--a horse that will drive, and drive well...a good using horse.

And yes, I do believe that Minis can be using horses, and should be bred for "using". Then there would be more market for geldings as driving horses.... I don't go along with the idea that since Minis are too small to ride they should be bred to be perfect halter show horses. That thinking leads to structural weaknesses in the breed.


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## HGFarm (Dec 5, 2007)

LOL! I want a purple decoder ring too- I must have dropped my other one down the drain or something- can't find it anywhere! I stopped a few pages ago- you guys are all too funny.

Vertical Limit, find out who is dealing out the crack and call the DEA!

wow............


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## maestoso (Dec 5, 2007)

I think, if you read my first post, the point of it is not that hard to conclude, though I agree that several other posts here, including some of my own, have digressed. This seems to be the nature of many threads on this board, so I am not sure where the dramatic gasps and such are coming from.

And tagalong, had you actually read my entire post, and other posts, instead of summarizing it to suit you, I have stated several times that I am always interested in learning more, talking to more people about their knowledge. My security keeps me from worrying about people thinking they have all the right answers, but doesn't block me from learning more from someone I feel is worth learning from. And while it is clear that many people on this board have a lot of knowledge, I value that which comes from people with a little humility, openness, and those that share their knowledge with the goal of sharing it, not expecting that someone will take it because they know what a "true horseman" is or what the "only" goal is. So yes, I am secure.

If it makes you feel better, when the miniature horse breed takes over the world, because there are too many of them, or whatever the fear is, you can blame me! Ill be in Maine, enjoying my own horses, enjoying the company of my neighbors who are enjoying their horses, and not worrying about how the person down the street is destroying "MY" breed, OH, and I'll be ringless.


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## Jill (Dec 5, 2007)

Just keep stirring the pot...


----------



## Danielle_E. (Dec 5, 2007)

Okay, somebody pass me the "advil" I must have a major hangover because Matt your last post makes absolutely no logical sense at all, it's an "oxymorong". NOW don't go thinking I called you a moron, please

oxymoron >noun a figure of speech or expressed idea in which apparently contradictory terms appear in conjunction (e.g. bittersweet).

-DERIVATIVES oxymoronic >adjective.

-ORIGIN from Greek oxumMros 'pointedly foolish'.


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## Jill (Dec 5, 2007)

Oh! They DO come in purple!!!! So pretty


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 5, 2007)

HGFarm said:


> Vertical Limit, find out who is dealing out the crack and call the DEA!
> 
> wow............


Heck, After the last two pages I am smokin' the stuff myself.






Mary Lou.........make note that I switched my order to the new "magical power" rings. Can't wait to try them out. POOF!.............



> Oh! They DO come in purple!!!! So pretty


I agree, Jill.....they are quite stylish! And purple......my favorite.


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## Jill (Dec 5, 2007)

Jeepers, I better place my order now or they may run out of magical purple decoder rings!!!!!


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## Reble (Dec 5, 2007)

I bet this topic gets closed soon... at least I hope so...


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 5, 2007)

> If it makes you feel better, when the miniature horse breed takes over the world, because there are too many of them, or whatever the fear is, you can blame me! Ill be in Maine, enjoying my own horses, enjoying the company of my neighbors who are enjoying their horses, and not worrying about how the person down the street is destroying "MY" breed, OH, and I'll be ringless.


Who was it that said

"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" ??

Oh and can you change my order to four decoder rings and four magical purple mystical rings please, Mary Lou.

And whoever has the ganga could they pass it on???


----------



## Marty (Dec 5, 2007)

[SIZE=18pt][/SIZE]

Yes, we need a little Christmas

Right this very minute.

For we need a little music,

Need a little laughter,

Need a little singing

Ringing through the rafter,

And we need a little snappy

"Happy ever after,"

Need a little Christmas now.


----------



## Jill (Dec 5, 2007)

Jane is turning me bi-linqual. I had to google to see what codswallop and ganga meant today. Ya'll talk funny over there


----------



## Vertical Limit (Dec 5, 2007)

Reble said:


> I bet this topic gets closed soon... at least I hope so...


Now why would we close this thread? I'm having too much fun getting high



and buying decoder rings. And Mary Lou is making WAY to much money selling them.

OPPPSSSSSSS........ML..........YOU BAD! Sales on the Forum is not allowed! Oh heck.......you only own the place. I will let it slide this time.


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## Minimor (Dec 5, 2007)

> Who was it that said"If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem" ??


Truthfully? I think it was someone who wanted to blame everyone else for their own mistakes and disappointments. That also explains why it has become such a popular phrase.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Dec 5, 2007)

Actually it started in the Sixties and that was my time.

It is, or rather was not, a "get out" at the time we did a lot more than just lie around getting stoned.

Today, on this thread, I shall settle for getting stoned!!!

Whilst playing with my fab new decoder ring


----------



## Relic (Dec 5, 2007)

Rabbit do you not have a website l would love to see your program...


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## Georgine (Dec 5, 2007)

I think I prefer Mona's rings



I would like one of the best please



I'll take your word for it

I am really confused but I have to be honest, I haven't read every word carefully, that has been written on this topic.

I might as well make a comment and I am not sure if I am on or off topic





The mini horse numbers in our area are really growing and prices are not as high as they were 5 to 10 years ago.

Nice studs are going 250.00 and up.

Good quality mares and fillies can be purchased 600.00 and up.

The saddle horse market has "tanked" and this is due to hundreds of horses flooding the Ontario market due to the PMU market, is what we have been told.

The "market" is the "market" and like all markets there are peaks and valleys.

If you are in the market the time to buy horses is now while prices are low, and be prepared to wait it out, spend your money on feeding and vet care and hope the market "swings back".

My goal is to have the best quality horses possible and we are breeding to improve our stock.

When buyers visit us and are looking for a "cheap horse" my answer is that I have no cheap horses.

I am not "ON TOPIC" am I





Also could someone please p.m. me on those initials???/sek - suina?I am old and don't pick up on things real quick


----------



## mininik (Dec 5, 2007)

Wow. Alright, who spiked the punch bowl this time?


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 5, 2007)

mininik said:


> Wow. Alright, who spiked the punch bowl this time?


Oh Come On Mininik, that was uncalled for. She made a nice comment.


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## mininik (Dec 5, 2007)

Oh, for !#$%'s sake! My post was about this entire THREAD, tounge-in-cheek, just like Carol up there smokin' crack and busting Mary Lou for selling decoder rings on her own forum.


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Oh, Nicole. Don't blame her. She just hasn't gotten her decoder ring yet.


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

> Would you shop with the "elite" breeders if they had something in your price range, or would you skip them, since they breed for show and you are looking for a pet?


I've been thinking of this statement, with a smile, since I read it the other day. My assumption is that "they" would indeed skip over that reasonably priced horse on an elite breeder's sales list





I mean, if not, imagine what that could do to "their" pet quality breeding aspirations? Such a purchase could blow the whole plan out of the water and up to the much to be avoided show quality category





Plus, don't we all know that show quality horses do not make good pets? None of them have nice dispositions


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## ChrystalPaths (Dec 6, 2007)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> These come with SPECIAL powers... same price..



Darn that's it, I gotta have a bunch of these...life will be so much easier to understand and put up with anyone who doesn't agree with me either...and you "know" I'm weird! OH!


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## keely2682 (Dec 6, 2007)

much of this is the reason that i am very content with my collection of exceptional geldings


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, I wouldn't knock anyone from being content with their nice geldings. My own (some exceptional) geldings are honestly my favorite horses when it comes right down to which ones I enjoy and love the most. If a person wants a nice pet, wants to have fun at shows, wants a good driving horse, etc., etc., ETC., it's going to be hard to find something better than a gelding


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## Mona (Dec 6, 2007)

Georgine said:


> *I think I prefer Mona's rings
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey now, don't bring ME into this! If Mary Lou thinks I am trying to take her decoder ring business away from her, she'll surely FIRE ME!


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

So, does that mean that the rumor I heard about you, Mona, selling a Rainbow line of these rings was not true?


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## Mona (Dec 6, 2007)

Jill said:


> So, does that mean that the rumor I heard about you, Mona, selling a Rainbow line of these rings was not true?


[SIZE=18pt]*SHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!!!!*[/SIZE]


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Okay, I won't tell anyone but you gotta cut me in on deal


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 6, 2007)

Well Shhh dont tell anyone but really I saw these decoder rings on ebay for a much cheaper price now I am sure they are the same exact quality as the more expensive ones that Mona and ML are trying to sell and look exactly the same........


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

_hmmmmmmmmm........_

I wonder if they are calibrated to work on THIS forum?


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## Mona (Dec 6, 2007)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> Well Shhh dont tell anyone but really I saw these decoder rings on ebay for a much cheaper price now I am sure they are the same exact quality as the more expensive ones that *Mona and* ML *are* is trying to sell and look exactly the same........


OH! OH MY...I'm DOOMED!! Mary Lou...don't believe them! REALLY, I am NOT cutting in on your business, I swear! :Cold-Scared


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 6, 2007)

Well come on now Jill one decoder ring has to be as good as another decoder ring. Brand should MAKE no difference and the more colors they have in them well that has to be better right

and oh ya ML I didnt mean Mona ...ummm some other person I saw selling them but not Mona


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

I dunno... If they are from overseas, they may work different!!! I mean, you know how funny Jane / Rabbit talks sometimes. Thanks to her, I have had to google words like ganga and codswallop the past couple of days...

But, before anyone decides do they like Mona's rings, Mary Lou's rings, or these eBay (knock off?) rings -- wait and see what I'm working on. I'm working on some decoder GLASSES that you wear and it will decode messages for you but also work like Xrays Specs and you can *see* the poster!!!!!

I tell ya, they will be tha bomb!


----------



## Shari (Dec 6, 2007)

My DH wants to learn to speak Japanese because a lot of works clients are in Japan..... think he might need a Japanese decoder ring! Poor man...

UK speech is not a problem for him...... but I think the Japanese is going to be a challenge.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 6, 2007)

Oooohhhhh Jill you are so right glasses would be better so much better then the decoder rings Oh so ok truth is out now YOU HAVE THE BEST sorry ML i am fickle.. gotta go with the best here


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, let's just hope this doesn't go to my head and make me an elitist


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

OK......shame on all of us for being so silly! How dare we have a sense of humor! I'm canceling my order for the decoder rings and calling in the DEA! OH!


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

OMG!!! I hope I didn't make anyone laugh. Who knows how much worse that could make my fines!!!!!!!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 6, 2007)

Oh my ML i am deeply afraid that if I use yours or Jills glasses that I might see someone sitting on there computer looking like that....

now that would be deeply disturbing


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Darn it, Mary Lou!!!!!!!!!!!!

When I sent you that picture of me, I didn't think you'd rip off my idea!!!!


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I also sell the Decoder Glasses...
> 
> 
> 
> ...














Well, if it isn't dear old DAD!


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## Hosscrazy (Dec 6, 2007)

Liz R.


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## nightflight (Dec 6, 2007)

.... the danger in online dating.

"Single white male. Nature lover. Seeks mature single chill dude or dudette who digs a guy in glasses."


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Good God, Carol, that looks like my uncle Phil... with a longer beard. Where did you find that?






He's an artist and lives on a boat with my aunt and cousin, Sailor. Here's their website:

http://philfake.com/default.htm

No glasses required!


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## Shari (Dec 6, 2007)

Gott'a love you guys!!

Glad I wasn't drinking some thing when I saw those Decorder Glasses! Maybe I should get a pair of of those and I would get through the check out line at the store faster!


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## Reble (Dec 6, 2007)

Miniature Horse Forum, is for learning, educating, & we have rules


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

mininik said:


> Good God, Carol, that looks like my uncle Phil... with a longer beard. Where did you find that?


Wow.......maybe we are cousins!


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Vertical Limit said:


> mininik said:
> 
> 
> > Good God, Carol, that looks like my uncle Phil... with a longer beard. Where did you find that?
> ...


Wellllllllll, you know, I do think lots of us know more about our horses' family trees than our own!!!!


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## Reble (Dec 6, 2007)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I am truly sorry.. I got caught up in the funny things and getting giddy with my old age.. I hope no one feels I was making fun of anyone here.. that honestly was not my intension.. If I hurt anyone's feelings, I am so very sorry.. it was not meant that way..


Thanks Mary Lou, I do not believe you would do anything like that, just was upsetting to see this go on as long as it did, and have you and monitors joining in.

People where talking and I just had to say something..





No disrespect to Mary Lou or our Monitors..


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## Shari (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes, things have gotten silly but I rather have it go silly than the other direction.





This is a wonderful forum and MaryLou and the Mods do a wonderful job!


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## lvponies (Dec 6, 2007)

I haven't laughed out loud on the forum in a long, long time. I loved the levity after such a long and serious thread!!! I think sometimes we need to laugh at ourselves a little and see no harm in it!!





So......I'm ready for my decoder ring and glasses. Send em on!!


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Oh, I thought this thread turned out to be something to smile about instead of what it could have easily turned into. I loved it (yeah, I guess that already is obvious). Almost any other time a thread goes on and on (and on and on), it's due to bickering. This was an uplifting shift.


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## Mona (Dec 6, 2007)

Reble said:


> Thanks Mary Lou, I do not believe you would do anything like that, just was upsetting to see this go on as long as it did, and have you and monitors joining in.


Well the day I cannot come to the Forum and enjoy a little *harmless fun* is the day I stop coming here. I can honestly say that I was in no way, shape or form, making fun of anyone.


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## Hosscrazy (Dec 6, 2007)

Exactly!!!


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

Mona said:


> Reble said:
> 
> 
> > Thanks Mary Lou, I do not believe you would do anything like that, just was upsetting to see this go on as long as it did, and have you and monitors joining in.
> ...


Well Mona......you took the words right out of my mouth. Just because someone monitors a forum does not mean that they are not people too. Life to me is nothing without a sense of humor and I personally feel sorry for anyone that can not see the lighter side of life. Nobody was making fun of anyone here. People complain that we shut threads down........people complain that we don't shut threads down................people complain if you want to have a bit of fun.......people complain if things are too serious.



The only thing that no one seems to complain about is a lot of doom and gloom. Sorry.........I happen to look at life as a glass always been half full and feel very sorry for those who don't. I will continue to find the brighter side of everything. If someone has a problem with that you know where to find me. I will be sure to wear my decoder ring AND glasses when I read your email or PM.


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## susanne (Dec 6, 2007)

Holy Sh*toly!!!!!

I came back to read this wearing my post cataract surgery protective goggle, and IT ALL MADE SENSE!!!

(But I'm not giving away what it all means!)

And if you want to really be scared...

Imagine that phot of Carole's dad (Nikki's Uncle)...delete one lens...and you know what I look like today!!!!

Just call me part of the family!


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## HGFarm (Dec 6, 2007)

LOL!!

Oh, let her sell the rings, she has to support her habit somehow,











Rabbits, spoken like a true hippie from 'back then'! Ha, I haven't heard 'fab' since the 60's! LOL

You didnt know what ganga was? These modern kids......





Oh dear!!!!!!!!!!! I just went back and read some more (I am going to get into trouble here at work for dying laughin gout loud)...

Oh those glasses are SUMTHIN'- I want some to go with my decoder ring... I dont know though- that dude looks like he's had one too many acid trips, hahahahahaha


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## Mona (Dec 6, 2007)

HGFarm said:


> You didnt know what ganga was? These modern kids......






Yes, Jill my dear, what ROCK have you been hiding under? Even_* I*_ have heard of that one!





Jiiiiillllll...come out, come out wherever you are!


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## Hosscrazy (Dec 6, 2007)

I must be hiding under the same rock because I do not have a CLUE as to what ganga is!!!


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## susanne (Dec 6, 2007)

Next thing you know, Jill's going to tell us she didn't inhale...


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Nah, I'd never heard of it called ganga!!!! This is like history repeating itself. In high school, someone asked me if I wanted to split a dime bag and I just had this blank stare I guess. No idea what she meant no matter how much I looked like I should (as the only "punk rock" girl in the school...).

.................

So, anyway, I'm sitting here fooling with my Decoder-Xray Glasses and discovered an unexpected feature. They work like 3D glasses when you look at the TV!!!!!!!! Really! I swear!!!! These glasses, a stack of movies from Netflix and I don't need to go to the office tomorrow. Movie night at Jill's house!


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, all I know is that I will be in Jamaica "Mon" next week with all the Rastafarians and there is enough

ganga there to get the World happy.



Oh........I'm with Jill.......I never inhaled either.





Oh, I know......next thing will be that all the Forum monitors and half their buddies are drug addicts.............

I say MON............Call in the DEA..............


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

susanne said:


> Next thing you know, Jill's going to tell us she didn't inhale...


Actually, I never did!!! For real... but sometimes now, I'd really like to at least try!


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## Marty (Dec 6, 2007)

[SIZE=18pt]The Weenie here has a question about those decoder rings. [/SIZE]

Do they come with a contract and a health certificate?

And are they breed-able?

I would have to have a pair to breed, even though I would be very new at this I would offer them a good home.

So, how about a deal on two?

I would not want to buy one that did not have a size guarantee either.


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Shoot, cousin Carol... you ARE involved with ARABIANS and have been for how many years??? You can't possibly say you're clean.


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Marty --

I do not know about the reproductive tendencies of the rings. However, ever the saleswoman, want to let you know if you set some of my decoder x-ray glasses on your nose upside down, they produce double vision.

Jill


----------



## lvponies (Dec 6, 2007)




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## Mona (Dec 6, 2007)

barnbum said:


> Note to newbies--things aren't *usually* this trashy.



No...sometimes it WORSE!


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

AND, I love it!!!


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## Marty (Dec 6, 2007)

[SIZE=18pt]Well what if I wanted to breed a decoder ring to the decoder glasses?[/SIZE]

I realize the size difference, but

that is if I promised to call a vet at the actual decoding event and had it on decoder cam so I could help out? I'm not irresponsible you know!


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Yes you are terribly irresponsible, Marty. You are saying you want to cross breed when there are already COUNTLESS decoder rings and glasses out there waiting for homes. No doubt you'd charge double for your mutt decoderinglasses, too, right?


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, the resulting creature would eligible to be included in a very elite registry I'm going to form for just the purpose of registering these cross breeds.


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## Alex (Dec 6, 2007)

You guys are TOO funny. But you guys realize what your typing, right! ALL OF YOU ARE LOOPY!!! breeding glasses x rings... wow


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Yuck! Who in the world would eat BREADED glasses or rings?!


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## Alex (Dec 6, 2007)

OH! I got slapped in the face with the stupid bug! I meant *breeding*


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

No no no, quick buy a pair of my decoder glasses and they'll shield your eyes from any bug


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 6, 2007)

mininik said:


> Yuck! Who in the world would eat BREADED glasses or rings?!



Heck catch me at the right time of the month and I will eat just about anything BREADED including decoder rings


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> mininik said:
> 
> 
> > Yuck! Who in the world would eat BREADED glasses or rings?!
> ...


The wrong time of the month, and I'll fight ya for it!!!!


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## CritterCountry (Dec 6, 2007)

Danielle_E. said:


> Marty said:
> 
> 
> > I'm with Bevann. When I sell a horse he goes with luggage and I mean he goes with luggage and I do have pictures to back that up.
> ...


I know this was a few pages back..but had to comment on it. I know where sellers stand.

As a buyer I OFFER references and I have never been asked for any. I offer visitation un-announced to prove I have nothing to hide. I send photos and updates. I offer first buy back (and I stipulate that too when I sell-I know where my past horses are) I give vet and farrier references as well as personal ones. I make contracts to protect both parties.

My farrier actually kids me that I worry too much, but I told him if I didn't worry, then my girl would be at risk and that affects me too. I also want to learn and my vet and farrier always offer some great advice.

I also send before and after photos of my horses from when they arrived at my place to present. I know when I sell my animals, I want to know they are well taken of. So I assume when I buy one, that the seller would like to know too. Even though I have come across quite a few who really don't care what happens to the horse after it arrives at my home. Such as the stallion I bought and the first mare I bought.

The previous owner of my current mare visits me all the time. She is quite happy with where Sable is and I have nothing to hide. I call her if something goes on with Sable. She calls me when something happens to Sable's offspring from previous years. It really helps to keep the relationship going.


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## Alex (Dec 6, 2007)

You will never catch me eating glasses!


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

Did somebody say things were trashy around here?








> You will never catch me eating glasses!


Pinto 28......you get ahold of some of this ganja and you will eat just about anything.


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Uh... have many of these disappointed people been to any horse shows or barn parties? Surely not, because what's going on here is truly tame.


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## Reble (Dec 6, 2007)

mininik said:


> Uh... have many of these disappointed people been to any horse shows or barn parties? Surely not, because what's going on here is truly tame.


I would like to see this go to the back porch? since it is not educational anymore.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 6, 2007)

barnbum said:


> [
> 
> You obviously have no clue as to how you are coming across to the many who are reading this in dismay. Some of you may regret this fun later.
> 
> Wow.


While I can kinda see your point I cant see how this is any worse or more hurtful then the replies that were happening when people were not even READING what was wrote yet accusing and attacking

The reality is no matter when this thread ended those that want to feel breeding poor quality or pet quality or show quality are not going to change there minds. Nothing being said here will make someone think perhaps they should not be breeding little Johnny stallion or Jane mare

Everyone who feels they have the best of the best be it what others see or something totally different will still defend there choices and do what they wish so I dont see anything wrong with having a bit of fun sure might not be as easy to keep reading as those mean and nasty comments but I prefer it


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

23 pages later... was this post EVER educational? LOL


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

mininik said:


> 23 pages later... was this post EVER educational? LOL


Exactly!

AND for something so dislikable by a reported many, it sure has LOTS of replies and TONS of views.


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

I guess it's kind of like a train wreck... or NASCAR for some... you hate to watch, but you can't stand to turn away!


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## maestoso (Dec 6, 2007)

When the goal turns to mean jabs and insults, it can't be educational. And its seems that opinions on heated topics, can't reasonably be discussed here, because instead of the forum being conducive to discussion and openness, it turns into the hallway or lunchroom in middle school, where the "popular" clique, will say and do anything make themselves out to be right, and feel good. They support each other even when they aren't making sense, or are being downright mean. Its great that you have that support.

Like many others on this board, I sometimes feel the need to get the last word in, especially, like many others, when it is a topic that I have strong opinions about(I know there are a lot of commas here, and perhaps some big words, which can be confusing, but I hope those of you who had trouble "understanding" my last post can understand this...)

There is no point in trying to share an opinion or argue a point, when there is(no offense) a group of adult ladies who share a similar thought and will not stop at anything to convince everyone else that they are right. And I really don't mean that with any disrespect to women, in fact, you should be proud of yourselves, the way you gang up, like a pack of wolves, you could do powerful things I'm sure, regardless of whether what you said made sense or not. So good for you!


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, Matt, I did previously post my points of view pretty clearly as they relate to your original parameters for the discussion. I do find decoder rings and glasses more worth discussion than an aspiration to build a pet quality breeding herd in the hopes of producing only pet quality minis so everyone can afford to buy them (never mind that the quality ones can also be quite affordable).


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## maestoso (Dec 6, 2007)

Jill, I think its great that that is your opinion, opinions are much more welcome than insults. Based on what you said, I think the point I was trying to make is still unclear to some people, but as I just said, its pointless at this point to even try.


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Okay.

I'd love to have it pointed out though, who was insulted? When was someone mean? I didn't see anything at all nasty "happen" on this thread. Just a lot of fun


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## Shari (Dec 6, 2007)

One should always breed the best to the best. Or start with your best and work your way up.

Why,,, because no matter how good ones breeding herd is... you are always going to get pet quality horses. It is much, much better to not breed, badly conformed, poorly temperment horses.

If one only breeds pet quality to pet quality... one is going to get a lot of very poor quality horses and that does not do the breed any good.

There are tons of Mini mill pet breeders out there already. No sense adding to them.

I too much rather talk about cool decoder rings and glasses...because Matt... you are not willing to listen and learn. Do what you will, no one will stop you. But most of us will never think as you do.

Does anyone make cool capes to go with those Decoder rings and glasses?


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Stay single much, Matt?


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## nightflight (Dec 6, 2007)

Matt - you have PM



> Like many others on this board, I sometimes feel the need to get the last word in, especially, like many others, when it is a topic that I have strong opinions about(I know there are a lot of commas here, and perhaps some big words, which can be confusing, but I hope those of you who had trouble "understanding" my last post can understand this...)


There has been a lot of good information for a discussion and a lot of humor in this thread. Both are important. This is a discussion forum, not a debate board. The point isn't to win, so who gets the last word doesn't really matter.

I think this thread HAS been educational! I've googled things I never googled before!


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Aroooo!! ooow ow!!









So true, Colleen... just think how many now know what ganga is thanks to this rediculous thread!


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## Minimor (Dec 6, 2007)

I guess those decoder glasses really do work...I did get to see the poster that time!



So mininik, which is which?

I am so thankful, though, that I don't actually see anyone that looks like that photo of Carol's dad....and even more thankful that no one like that came with my glasses.


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## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

You know, I'm not really sure... but those _are_ pet quality wolves, by the way.


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## Marty (Dec 6, 2007)

[SIZE=18pt]God rest ye merry, gentlemen[/SIZE]

Let nothing you dismay

Remember, Christ, our Saviour

Was born on Christmas day

To save us all from Satan's power

When we were gone astray

O tidings of comfort and joy,

Comfort and joy

O tidings of comfort and joy


----------



## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> When the goal turns to mean jabs and insults, it can't be educational. And its seems that opinions on heated topics, can't reasonably be discussed here,


First of all......NIKKI.......more coke (acola) out my nose. The second time in minutes!

Matt.......I have not taken part of ANY of your discussion but pray tell what was the *"GOAL"* Was it your goal? Did you think everyone was going to agree with you? Or were you merely trolling for trouble. Sometimes things just don't go as planned.

As for HEATED TOPICS not being discussed here? You could have fooled me. There are many "heated discussions" on this Forum. They just seem to make more sense than this one. Again, I didn't participate in this one because I had to drum up my decoder ring and glasses to even start to understand half the stuff you were saying.

If you think the *goal* is for people to be *right * or *wrong* you have come to the wrong place. It is nothing more than a place to exchange ideas.


----------



## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

What, who, me? I'm a good girl. :stupid


----------



## maestoso (Dec 6, 2007)

Shari, to be frank, you don't know me, and you are not in a position to make such a judgement about me. Let me rephrase your comment for you....

"Matt, you are not willing to listen and learn from close-minded people who use insults and jabs to support their point and discussion"

And Shari, you are 100% correct about that!

And judging by the PM's I keep getting I am NOT alone in my thoughts, its just that those people learned a lot quicker than I did, that there is just no point here.

Vertical-- I don't think I had a goal, I had an opinion to share. If you re-read what I wrote......

"When the goal turns to insults......."

I am not saying that there was a goal to begin with I am saying that this discussion changed quickly from discussion to insults. The goal became, at least for a couple, to just insult and devalue the opinion, rather than sharing ones own.


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

> The goal became, at least for a couple, to just insult and devalue the opinion, rather than sharing ones own.


I saw a lot of people sharing opinions. I saw you devalue as many opinions as others devalued yours.

I don't think you were any less guilty than anyone else. And that's just my opinion. I have nothing against you personally....nor anyone else on this Forum. You come here fighting and you are going to get people to fight back. Me........I'd rather just have a good laugh and get on with things. I suggest you try to move on too................


----------



## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Wow. That ganga sure can put hair on your chest...


----------



## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

Well, I've just been informed that a few people have been letting the cat out of the bag in PM's to new members that I'm just THE rudest forum member. I thought I should let you all know, since you probably haven't actually seen me be rude to anyone. It's only fair that I warn you that I'm reportedly rude.

So, just watch out for me. I probably have only shared advice, encouragement, experience, and sometimes humor the past 7 or 8 years so I could just lure you all in so I could get the chance to be rude to you


----------



## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Big surprise. I always knew you were rude, Jill, but uh oh, sounds to me like it's time for a spinoff post from the one about the BEST horses...

*Who is the RUDEST forum member?*

Shall we bring it up to vote in the next tribal er, I mean pack council meeting?


----------



## Vertical Limit (Dec 6, 2007)

JEE Jill. I wonder who they could be. Maybe I will get out my super magical decoder PM ring and investigate.

Nikki..........see those bare spots? I burned the hair right off with my curling iron.


----------



## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

WELL, I think that in this pack meeting, my fan club should get to vote, too. I'm a shoe in for this crown!!!!








Vertical Limit said:


> JEE Jill. I wonder who they could be. Maybe I will get out my super magical decoder PM ring and investigate.


PERS, Carol... I just cannot imagine who these folks might be


----------



## Minimor (Dec 6, 2007)

That's our Jill, always got to be the BEST at everything.


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## Jill (Dec 6, 2007)

I know jeeze........ that darn elitist in me!!!!

Man, though... here pretty soon, my title's going to be the sleepiest forum member. It's way past my bedtime.


----------



## mininik (Dec 6, 2007)

Too much ganga, Jill... switch back to crack and you'll be fine.


----------



## nootka (Dec 6, 2007)

If I know who the secret society of helpful informants are, do I get a free ring and glasses (sans hairy dude, pls)?

Matt, and anyone else who feels "put down" that was never the intention nor is it the intention.

None of us are right all the time, and most of us are able to see that we were wrong, and admit it.

I'm probably wrong right now, I just hope I'm not making mistakes that cause others (including my horses) to suffer.

Believe me, there's nothing worse than finding out one of the little horses you raised, trained, and put so much hope into and care, turned out to be someone's neglected "pet."

Yes, show horses or any horse for that matter, could end up that way, it's just so much more likely when we sell to the pet market, because noone goes and checks on the horses every month or so like the show horses (brought to a show so one can see just HOW they are doing rather than driving by and seeing them neglected in a field.).

I do think there are alternatives to breeding pet only horses, as in rescuing and rehabbing some, or adopting from rescues. This is what I would love for people to see, other than wanting their own foal, or to breed their own foal.

Foalhood is so short-lived, and yet so much can be done to ruin a horse when they're so young and malleable. It really is only for those with previous horse experience, or those who are humble enough to accept guidance of a reasonable and seasoned horseperson.

I know there are exceptions, but honestly, when I took on my first herd unexpectedly, two of the mares were pregnant. I had had horses for nearly ten years prior, had worked with and studied horses all of my life. I KNEW the two mares were not the best quality, and the one I knew for sure was bad. Her foal was alright, and I sold him as a pet gelding and gave her away (she rejected her foal and my first foaling ending up with a rejected foal was a real eye=opener for me). I gave away one other mare from the herd, and still have one (Gramma Pony).

The other I sold as a broodmare to someone who wanted to breed "Over" horses, but only after I broke her to drive.

I wish I knew then what I know now, as I would have wasted some less time with some things, but overall, I had a lot of horse experience. I find so many people wanting them for the novelty being people without.

I hope you realize it is a sad fact that there are too many minis being bred for the wrong reasons and it bothers us.

Does it mean people with a valid breeding goal should stop moving forward? No...it just means we have to be extra careful with our goals, and we have to be extra vigilant as to where we sell our horses, how we market them (if we care, and most of us do), and also that we have to accept less for that job.

"We" meaning collective, not adding myself to any elite. Nope. Nuh-uh.

Liz


----------



## horsehug (Dec 6, 2007)

Hi Matt,

I have been so busy the last few days and weeks that I did not keep up totally with this thread, but in looking back to your posts I just wanted to say I do see a lot that I do agree with.

I have many times thought that if you have a wonderful little horse that is built in such a way that it moves comfortably and lives a very functional, sound and happy life, you want more like it! At least I have a few like that. They may not be halter winners in the current show ring of today, but to "me" they are winners and I love it when I get babies "like" them! And I am talking sound foals that sell easily and give their owners joy also while living happy comfortable functional useful lives! And like someone mentioned in one of these threads, just being a happy well cared for pasture ornament can be a valid use also in my book!

I guess this is my way of saying I do understand breeding for soundness and funtionality, while I also understand those who choose to breed for halter winners, and I wish we could all understand that we each have our own goals, and if the wellbeing of our little horses is at the forefront, I do not see a problem with following our own goals.

To achieve breeding horses that do well in halter as well as performance as well as bringing joy to their owners as happy pets, that is indeed wonderful also. But to me so long as the horses are comfortable and sound, and do not suffer, I think goals in any of these endeavors are good.

Susan O.


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## maestoso (Dec 6, 2007)

Excellent post Susan.


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## Lil Farm (Dec 7, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> ...
> 
> *It is not the mini horse that is overpopulated, it is the STUPID, UNEDUCATED, ABUSIVE, NEGLECTFUL, AND IGNORANT, owners that are overpopulated. *
> 
> ...


(In bold) Now this is something I'm inclined to agree with you about Matt but I do think those "responsible" breeders do their absolute best to educate the buyers when they sell. There is definately a shortage of good homes. Anyone who thinks not is hiding their heads in the sand and/or has been just plain lucky. But as human nature goes, you can't always see into the hearts of those who end up buying your horse--whether they are truly willing to sacrifice when times get tough or just let the horse go without, whether they are feeding you a load of crap about their horsemanship skills or not. There are no gaurantees no matter how well you prepare or how well you interview, most of those horses go to those new homes on a wish and a prayer. Few people new to horses, and even some who've been around awhile, can or ever do grasp what it takes to care properly for equine unless they have made the commitment on all levels. It's more than throwing out some hay and keeping the water bucket filled and sadly some don't realize what they've gotten themselves into before they purchase. I have NEVER advised anyone to get a horse. It's not the usual type of person who is willing to get up in the middle of the night with a sick horse, spend thousands on vet bills, farriers, blankets, tons of hay, fix fences and spend you every waking moment being concerned with them. Most people would call horse people obsessed or just plain crazy and unfortunatley just too few of them.

Which leads me to wonder that if you believe what you have said, why on earth would you be inclined to support breeding at all, responsible breeder, good owner, pet or show quality regardless of affordability if you think there is such an over population of "STUPID, UNEDUCATED, ABUSIVE, NEGLECTFUL, AND IGNORANT" owners as a sales base? It's hard enough for a horse with everything going for it to have a good future let alone some poor mediocre little thing that someone produced on a whim.

I know that this is the reason I will never be involved in breeding at any level and with good reason. I've taken in more than my fair share of horses throughout the years that have been bred, I'm sure, by some loving, kind, well-meaning people but when they left that heaven on earth and were sold to someone, or even many, along the line ended up in some pretty bad situations. There is even a faction in the population that purposely seeks out free or cheap animals to torment and torture. I hope to God people keep their prices up to at least weed out those creeps.


----------



## maestoso (Dec 7, 2007)

Thanks for your post Lil Farm. My point was actually that the "hype" of the breed being overpopulated, seems to be focused on just one aspect of the solution, that will never be solved, because it's uncontrollable.

I do support breeding because I think that it can be a very rewarding and fun aspect of the industry. And I think that the industry is for anyone who can care for, love, and provide safety for, their mini regardless of what their goals or hobbies are.

The human race is over populated too, there are lots of orphanages filled with children, lots of children in foster care and group homes, and children getting killed, sold, enslaved, etc in foreign countries, and yet I don't see anyone arguing that humans should stop having babies. You would say, "I want the experience of having my own child" and so be it, who am I to argue that?

Maybe I shouldn't say this, perhaps I'll get flamed that horses aren't humans and I realize this, but it's the same principal.


----------



## Marty (Dec 7, 2007)

[SIZE=14pt]Well I missed the rude pm party so let me just sing this last carol for yalls and I'll carol my fat butt to bed and leave you all with this final thought........[/SIZE]

[SIZE=18pt][/SIZE]

Let There Be Peace on Earth and let it begin with me. 

Let There Be Peace on Earth, the peace that was meant to be!

With Mary Lou as our leader, sisters and brothers all are we.

Let us all trot into the forum, in perfect harmony.


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## tagalong (Dec 7, 2007)

*Matt* - when you start a post with this protest....



Matt Drown said:


> When the goal turns to mean jabs and insults...


... and yet have gone out of your way to be smug and sneer.... I cannot help but go... _huh?_





Contrary to your assertion - many heated topics have been discussed here. Many times over. There have been excellent discussions with a wide variety of opinions - yes, they have gotten heated upon occasion - but without the snide little insults you seem to pride yourself on.

This kind of comment....



> I know there are a lot of commas here, and perhaps some big words, which can be confusing, but I hope those of you who had trouble "understanding" my last post can understand this...)


... is unnecessary IMO. You claim that you want a discussion and yet insist on the little jabs?? That does not make for any kind of a discussion.

You can make your points and encourage discussion without any of that. Or - maybe not. More than 20 pages later and the song remains the same... but carry on as you please.

And if this thread got a bit goofy and people were letting off some steam - well, I really cannot see anything wrong with it.

If a thread is not to one's liking - do not keep reading it - or scroll. Believe me - this forum is extremely tame compared to most message boards out there - EXTREMELY tame



... and the only time I have seen this forum careening even remotely towards the Dark Side was a couple of years ago when one poster knew more than anyone else and ran roughshod over anyone who did not agree with him, insulting, trashing, bashing... and it was a an ugly time as many here can attest to.



> I guess this is my way of saying I do understand breeding for soundness and funtionality, while I also understand those who choose to breed for halter winners, and I wish we could all understand that we each have our own goals, and if the wellbeing of our little horses is at the forefront, I do not see a problem with following our own goals.


*horsehug* - the way I see it - the goals you mentioned are one and the same... soundness and functionality = form to function - put together in the right way* is * that halter/performance winner - even if they never see a show ring.



And so hopefully we are all on the same path... moving_ forward_... and improving along the way...


----------



## Jill (Dec 7, 2007)

Marty said:


> [SIZE=14pt]Well I missed the rude pm party so let me just sing this last carol for yalls and I'll carol my fat butt to bed and leave you all with this final thought........[/SIZE]
> 
> [SIZE=18pt][/SIZE]
> 
> ...


[SIZE=24pt][/SIZE]

And then when we're all happy

As anyone could see

Someone's gonna get nasty

'cause they need a stick-ectomy


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Dec 7, 2007)

Sorry I am still a bit spaced out from all the ganga (it's much better in brownies, BTW



) and I can't find my decoder ring - it must be in the bed somewhere, I guess......

BUT

Now, correct me if I am wrong, but...

Matt, did you actually suggest that the fact that the US is overpopulated, grossly, with Miniature Horses, is *hype* ???????


----------



## ChrystalPaths (Dec 7, 2007)

barnbum said:


> > I am truly sorry.. I got caught up in the funny things and getting giddy with my old age.. I hope no one feels I was making fun of anyone here.. that honestly was not my intension.. If I hurt anyone's feelings, I am so very sorry.. it was not meant that way..
> 
> 
> But it continues--reply by reply, the lb reputation is joining Oscar. As is the reputation of some of the repliers. The integrity of this forum is fading--and yes--all it takes is something like this. So sad. So many disappointed--but they won't speak up.
> ...






Vertical Limit said:


> Matt Drown said:
> 
> 
> > When the goal turns to mean jabs and insults, it can't be educational. And its seems that opinions on heated topics, can't reasonably be discussed here,
> ...






Vertical Limit said:


> > The goal became, at least for a couple, to just insult and devalue the opinion, rather than sharing ones own.
> 
> 
> I saw a lot of people sharing opinions. I saw you devalue as many opinions as others devalued yours.
> ...






nootka said:


> If I know who the secret society of helpful informants are, do I get a free ring and glasses (sans hairy dude, pls)?
> 
> Matt, and anyone else who feels "put down" that was never the intention nor is it the intention.
> 
> ...






horsehug said:


> Hi Matt,
> 
> I have been so busy the last few days and weeks that I did not keep up totally with this thread, but in looking back to your posts I just wanted to say I do see a lot that I do agree with.
> 
> ...



All very interesting reading. Now I don't breed anymore but did once and well...while I love them and their new owners love them they most likely weren't the best of the best but the best I could breed and I was pretty proud of several.

This thread came off initially as a challenge to my mind, not just a discussion...kinda "here's the gauntlet, I'm throwing it down", knowing things were gonna get deep and hot...then seeing the heat and loving the forum ML knew a bit of fun would help keep feelings intact and light as well as continue the discussion, as did Mona and Carol and the fun merchandisers who contributed levity to a serious thread. No harm, it needed a bit of cool water and got it. Honestly too many take life too seriously. There is no black and white merely opinion... always has been, always will be and this is why I come here still...I love the people, love the commentary.

BTW I can create a custom decoder ring and glasses if anyone is interested.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 7, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> When the goal turns to mean jabs and insults, it can't be educational.
> 
> Like many others on this board, I sometimes feel the need to get the last word in,
> 
> There is no point in trying to share an opinion or argue a point, when there is(no offense) a group of adult ladies who share a similar thought and will not stop at anything to convince everyone else that they are right.



MAtt... how are you not doing the exact same thing? You are and have turned to mean Jabs and insults... you feel you must have the last word, and you want to stop at nothing to convince everyone else that you are right on this subject and you are angry that others are doing the same thing?

BOttom line is no one has to have the last word or argue a point no one is going to change your mind nor are you going to change theres on this subject... just agree to disagree and move on let it go


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## capall beag (Dec 7, 2007)

Well I have been reading along!

How can people be offended by this topic when NO ONE is required to read it!!

If you don't like it, DON'T read it!!

C'mon!!!!!!!!!!!!

Then getting mad at people for being funny! If you don't like their comedy don't read it!

It seems to me most of the people having fun on this topic are old timers who are normally quick to help, educate and advise others and if they choose to have a laugh on a topic who cares??

Just like TV, you don't have to watch everything!

As a fellow Mainer, I agree with some of the earlier posts but breeding poor quality horses is never beneficial to the breed and even in Maine I have heard many breeders say they are finding it harder to sell their young stock now.

Shoot me now!! I think in Maine mini horses are often over priced! Very average quality is priced at good quality prices JMHO!


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 7, 2007)

barnbum said:


> > I am truly sorry.. I got caught up in the funny things and getting giddy with my old age.. I hope no one feels I was making fun of anyone here.. that honestly was not my intension.. If I hurt anyone's feelings, I am so very sorry.. it was not meant that way..
> 
> 
> But it continues--reply by reply, the lb reputation is joining Oscar. As is the reputation of some of the repliers. The integrity of this forum is fading--and yes--all it takes is something like this. So sad. So many disappointed--but they won't speak up.
> ...


I couldn't agree more! Frankly, I am shocked at the twist this topic has taken. I was under the assumption that this part of the forum was to help and educate people in the care of miniature horses, not to make fun of them. If you were a teacher and had a student that "just didn't get it" would you keep trying to get it across to him or just give up and publicly humiliate him. That is what this topic has turned into .. people trying to humiliate posters that don't agree with them.

I suppose you will try to humiliate me now for posting this but frankly, I don't care. I am sickened by this thread and doubt very seriously if I will be asking for advice from any of these people every again.

Oh and BTW, I am new to minis and thought I could get good sound advice here but I see that is not the case when you are afraid to ask for fear of being humiliated. This has turned into a sad situation.


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## Jill (Dec 7, 2007)

I have another market place idea to go along with the rings and glasses. A repellent spray that will give those who are so dismayed by what is being said on this thread the will power to avoid what they can't stand to read _(but can't help from reading and posting and reading and posting right on the thread they don't like!)_.


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## lvponies (Dec 7, 2007)

I honestly do not feel that anyone was making fun of anyone or trying to put them down in any way. Haven't you ever been somewhere where laughing would be inappropriate, but you get an attack of the giggles and can't stop yourself regardless of how hard you try?? In fact the harder you try, the more your eyes water, you snort and you giggle uncontrollably? I really think that those who have been offended by the levity on this thread have totally taken it the wrong way and gotten offended over nothing. No one was pointing and laughing at anyone. It was just plain silliness and having fun. Not meant at anyone's expense or to hurt anyone's feelings. It saddens me that some were hurt by this, but just do not feel it was meant to hurt anyone. Is it possible some of you have just taken this the wrong way? Put more meaning into it then was intended? Been more sensitive then the situation warranted? I'd hate to think that the Forum has turned into a totally serious place where fun, joking and silliness isn't allowed for fear of hurting anyone's feelings. It's just like the TV or radio, if you don't care for the content change the channel, the station or don't continue reading the thread. I enjoy having fun and being silly on occasion and don't see anything at all wrong with that. Lighten up folks. No one was intentionally trying to hurt your feelings or offend you. This is a great place to be where opinions of all sorts are welcome. No guarantee that anyone will actually agree with your opinion, but you are absolutely welcome to share it. Just remember that once you share your opinion, you have to be open for everyone else to share theirs as well and it might be the total opposite of yours. Doesn't mean yours is wrong or the other poster's is right. Just means that everyone is entitled to their opinion. As someone on the forum says, they are offering their opinion as theirs is the one they know best!!


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## Shari (Dec 7, 2007)

Matt my opinion still stands. Having been and am a Mod for many years... I have seen people like you.

You come on, not to talk but to force everyone to your views and tell everyone they are wrong.

There are a lot of good people here, that do the best for their horses. Many of them multi use.. halter, cart, packing, driving on the trails...and oh ya.. loved pets.

And please don't tell me I do not know your area...as you do not know where I am from.

I am done... doesn't help things to keep feeding a Troll.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 7, 2007)

lvponies said:


> IHaven't you ever been somewhere where laughing would be inappropriate, but you get an attack of the giggles and can't stop yourself regardless of how hard you try?? In fact the harder you try, the more your eyes water, you snort and you giggle uncontrollably?


I must admit I am famous for that


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## maestoso (Dec 7, 2007)

Lisa, I encourage you to read my posts. I have not de-valued anyone's opinion, I have not called it rubbish or codswallop. The only thing that I have "jabbed" at is the ridiculous mockery that a group of ladies seems to be making out of this.


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## Jill (Dec 7, 2007)

Reading some posts, I have a real hunch that some "themes" have been handfed to some of the newer posters by a few known trouble makers.

To question that this board offers a wealth of advice and knowledge is just crazy. A big part of the reason this forum has the GOOD reputation it does is because of some of the very same people who can take a step back and enjoy a laugh.

The fun here was at NO ONE's expense. No one has been made fun or or humiliated on this thread.


----------



## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Dec 7, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Like many others on this board, I sometimes feel the need to get the last word in, especially, like many others, when it is a topic that I have strong opinions about(I know there are a lot of commas here, and perhaps some big words, which can be confusing, but I hope those of you who had trouble "understanding" my last post can understand this...)
> 
> There is no point in trying to share an opinion or argue a point, when there is(no offense) a group of adult ladies who share a similar thought and will not stop at anything to convince everyone else that they are right. And I really don't mean that with any disrespect to women, in fact, you should be proud of yourselves, the way you gang up, like a pack of wolves, you could do powerful things I'm sure, regardless of whether what you said made sense or not. So good for you!


Guess this is one more thing we will agree to see differently.


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 7, 2007)

Jill said:


> I have another market place idea to go along with the rings and glasses. A repellent spray that will give those who are so dismayed by what is being said on this thread the will power to avoid what they can't stand to read _(but can't help from reading and posting and reading and posting right on the thread they don't like!)_.


OK Jill, I can see by your post on this thread and the other thread about this that you are just out to keep stirring the pot so keep right on. It's people like you that ruin a forum .. ones that think they know everything, does everything right, and has the best possible horses. If your a breeder, you breed some trash too just like everyone else. Don't flatter yourself into thinking your are an "elitest", you are just a know-it-all that has not respect for anyones elses feelings or opinions. And brags about being the "rudest person on this forum" .. your words, not mine.

No need to come back with your silly crap cause I won't be reading or posting on this forum again. Y'ALL NEED TO GROW UP!!


----------



## Jill (Dec 7, 2007)

Oh, don't mind me...


----------



## Sassy'sMom (Dec 7, 2007)

I too am very new to the world of mini's. I have only had them for 4 months, and I have come to absolutely love this forum. This is a place where I know I can always come for information, help, and advice. This particular thread is not going to stop me from coming back. I think this forum is one of the best and most informative that I have ever been on. Keep up the good work everyone!


----------



## Mona (Dec 7, 2007)

Mini Mouse said:


> I couldn't agree more! Frankly, I am shocked at the twist this topic has taken. I was under the assumption that this part of the forum was to help and educate people in the care of miniature horses, not to make fun of them. If you were a teacher and had a student that "just didn't get it" would you keep trying to get it across to him or just give up and publicly humiliate him. That is what this topic has turned into .. people trying to humiliate posters that don't agree with them.


Well, I think people are missing the "stupidity" of this post! The silliness all started back on page 10 where Katiean said something to Lisa, that just kind od seemed to come out of nowhere. (I am sure when she posted she felt it was valid, but others didn't see where she was coming from with that comment.) She had misunderstood something I guess, that Lisa had said. Anyway, people said they didn't understand where that came from, as nothing was said in regards to that comment. THAT is where all this decoder stuff started. It is NOT poking fun at Matt or making a mockery of him or his opinion on who should breed horses or why. I am sure this won't matter to those that have missed that point, but I wanted to point it out anyway.

Yes, we are being silly, and I guess it even went on longer than it probably should have, but to those this has been bothering, have you ever heard the saying "ignore the pest and it will go away"? It could have died out much sooner.



This is what happens when you feed the fire.





Looking back on this now, I think we did go overboard with allowing some of the talk (re.drugs) on a family oriented forum, and for that, I am personally sorry to those that were offended by my comments in regards to that.


----------



## Relic (Dec 7, 2007)

l think a lot of people showed there colors...


----------



## Charley (Dec 7, 2007)

> QUOTE(Matt Drown @ Dec 6 2007, 08:27 PM)
> 
> Like many others on this board, I sometimes feel the need to get the last word in, especially, like many others, when it is a topic that I have strong opinions about(I know there are a lot of commas here, and perhaps some big words, which can be confusing, but I hope those of you who had trouble "understanding" my last post can understand this...)
> 
> There is no point in trying to share an opinion or argue a point, when there is(no offense) a group of adult ladies who share a similar thought and will not stop at anything to convince everyone else that they are right. And I really don't mean that with any disrespect to women, in fact, you should be proud of yourselves, the way you gang up, like a pack of wolves, you could do powerful things I'm sure, regardless of whether what you said made sense or not. So good for you!



I can see your point here.



> Well, I think people are missing the "stupidity" of this post!


Why label someone elses opinion or post like this. Even if their was a misunderstanding, the posters that you don't agree with should not be labeled as anything derogitory. Kinder posts will educate more than this type of flagrant belittlement. I think a lot of these posts, truly not just this partial one, make others feel that this forum has become a place for newbys and those out of the inner circle to be ridiculed and made to feel that they are not welcome to discuss their opinions....to boost the inner circle's egos. Whether anyone wants to believe it this has been an attack of "*you* are wrong and *we* are right". Just my opinion...but it probably is seen that way by others who lurk. When they really need to ask or express their opinion, they will be very hesitant to express their thoughts...and then it is the whole board that loses out on another learning experience.


----------



## maestoso (Dec 7, 2007)

agreed!


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 7, 2007)

Jill said:


> I have another market place idea to go along with the rings and glasses. A repellent spray that will give those who are so dismayed by what is being said on this thread the will power to avoid what they can't stand to read _(but can't help from reading and posting and reading and posting right on the thread they don't like!)_.


I'll have three cans, -please to go with the decoder ring.


----------



## Mona (Dec 7, 2007)

Charley said:


> Whether anyone wants to believe it this has been an attack of "*you* are wrong and *we* are right".


In regards to WHAT EXACTLY???


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Dec 7, 2007)

Relic said:


> l think a lot of people showed there colors...


I am not at all sure anyone has ever tried to hide their "colours" as it were.

This is one of the few places where I can be almost frank (not that I actually want to be Frank, although I am sure he is a very nice man....[[SIZE=8pt]now stop that...oh all right then[/SIZE]] not quite as frank as the Forum upon which I am about to go and bang my head up against a wall.


----------



## Jill (Dec 7, 2007)

My true (favorite) colors are *purple* and *gold*


----------



## Marty (Dec 7, 2007)

[SIZE=18pt]If more people would just carol along with me, you'd have a much happier day! It's fun, join in![/SIZE]

Oh! You better watch out,

You better not cry,

You better not pout,

I'm telling you why:

Santa Claus is coming to town!

He's making a list,

He's checking it twice,

He's gonna find out

who's naughty or nice.

Santa Claus is coming to town!

He sees you when you're sleeping,

He knows when you're awake.

He knows when you've been bad or good,

So be good for goodness sake!

So...You better watch out,

You better not cry

You better not pout,

I'm telling you why.

Santa Claus is coming to town.

Little tin horns,

Little toy drums.

Rudy-toot-toot

and rummy tum tums.

Santa Claus is coming to town.

Little toy dolls

that cuddle and coo,

Elephants, boats

and Kiddie cars too.

Santa Claus is coming to town.

The kids in Girl and Boy Land

will have a jubilee.

They're gonna build a toyland town

all around the Christmas tree.

Oh....You better watch out,

You better not cry.

You better not pout,

I'm telling you why.

Santa Claus is comin'

Santa Claus is comin'

Santa Claus is comin'

To town.


----------



## Charley (Dec 7, 2007)

> QUOTEIMO they are trying to keep the breeding down so they can ask higher prices for their "quality" horses.
> 
> Mini Mouse - where have you seen anyone say that?? A top quality horse may sell for big bucks - or not. You do not get higher prices based on lack of availability - as you seem to think some believe. That is sheer nonsense.
> 
> ...


Since you asked Mona, this seems to be where it all started on page one and continues on through every page...with other posters piling on. Someone gets knocked down and then the pack just has to get in on the tackle. The tone of this and the riducule that it turned into....just unbelievable. Again, just my opinion.


----------



## Mona (Dec 7, 2007)

Charley, that is not a "we are right, you are wrong" attack...that is a collection of many posts where the poster is disagreeing with the original poster, and stating their varying reasons why they feel the way they do. It may appear as an attack because more are stating opinions against what the OP states. Not everyone feels the same way in regards to everything.


----------



## Vertical Limit (Dec 7, 2007)

Mona said:


> Charley, that is not a "we are right, you are wrong" attack...that is a collection of many posts where the poster is disagreeing with the original poster, and stating their varying reasons why they feel the way they do. It may appear as an attack because more are stating opinions against what the OP states. Not everyone feels the same way in regards to everything.


Couldn't agree more..........

Charley.......All I see is the reason this thread turned into this in the first place. People posting about things that were *never * said. You know this works both ways. I see comments being made that just have no relation to previous posts. Too many people just not reading what others have said. What's new?

NO DIFFERENT THAN OTHER HEATED THREADS IN THE PAST.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Dec 7, 2007)

If you post an opinion, and the majority of posts disagree all that means is that the majority of posters, on this Forum, who have given an opinion, disagree with the original post.

Example:

"I think the only really good colour for a Mini is Palomino"

Now many would disagree- but that does not change the fact that I still think it- nor does the fact that I think it mean that people do not have a right to say they think Bays are best!!

Anyone need my decoder ring???


----------



## tagalong (Dec 7, 2007)

> Since you asked Mona, this seems to be where it all started on page one and continues on through every page...with other posters piling on. Someone gets knocked down and then the pack just has to get in on the tackle. The tone of this and the riducule that it turned into....just unbelievable. Again, just my opinion.


Piling on?? Knocked down?? HUH?

*Charley* - you mainly quoted ME - out of context in many cases... and if you have an issue with *me * kindly take it to PM. I only disagreed with Matt and offered my opinion and thoughts - believe it or not we do not all have to think the same way. Matt has been contemptuous at times of anyone who did not agree with him - and if you had highlighted only his many snide comments that would paint a very different picture of this thread...

I am beginning to think that some of those who are upset about this thread have never been on any kind of message board or forum before. As I said earlier - this one is TAME. Even our most heated threads pale beside what constitutes a heated thread elsewhere. Get into a heated thread on CotH forums...and see how much skin you have left when tney are done with you!



Especially if you sail in and announce that anyone who does not agree with you is stupid, ignorant etc. as has been the case here...



> I have not de-valued anyone's opinion


\
But *Matt* - you have.





But nevermind...

On any forum - if one does not like a thread - one does not have to read it or take part. In fact, taking part only to berate and chastise others for posting in that thread bumps up and lengthens the thread you dislike - so it is counterproductive.

And the best thing to do with those who only want to stir the pot and taunt and sneer... is ignore. Which I am going to struggle to remember - and not rise to the bait.



> Well, I think people are missing the "stupidity" of this post!
> *****
> 
> Why label someone elses opinion or post like this. *Even if their was a misunderstanding, the posters that you don't agree with should not be labeled as anything derogitory. Kinder posts will educate more than this type of flagrant belittlement.*


Ummm... I think the *stupidity* comment referred to the goofiness of some posts - the funny ones ... and that was all. And the part I bolded... well, decoder rings comments etc. are not in the same ballpark as direct put downs, belittlements and snide remarks... but whatever. If one choose to carry on that way - that is one's choice...

This forum is extremely helpful, informative - and a great source of knowledge and fun... if one is actually open to discussion and the insight/opinions of others. *Any forum is a conversation - not a monologue * - and that is how we all learn.

And it _does_ work....

ETA: ... and just to clarify for the PM network... I am not part of any "inner circle"... or "elite" ... or what have you...


----------



## nootka (Dec 7, 2007)

Matt Drown said:



> I do support breeding because I think that it can be a very rewarding and fun aspect of the industry. And I think that the industry is for anyone who can care for, love, and provide safety for, their mini regardless of what their goals or hobbies are.


THIS is what's wrong with "breeding" and what was said here:

Breeding creates it's own "PROBLEM" and that is MORE MINIS. Now, the question does not become "can you provide love and safety and care for your mini" but can you proved the same for its foals, and if those foals are male, can you provide a place to separate them, and/or geld them so that they do not breed their mother, their sister, or get into a huge fight with daddy when the hormones show up?

If you are breeding more than one, well, you will now need to separate, while still caring for, brother and sister, and keep them away from daddy (we don't want daddy breeding his daughter when she's too young, even if you are "for" linebreeding or inbreeding, however you choose to look at it), and brother away from mother, and oh, let's let mommy and daddy have some quality time so that we have new little siblings for next year....even though we are NEVER going to sell brother and sister, auntie, uncle, or even grandma?

What happens is that people become overwhelmed. Foals must be weaned, must have their own stall, their own space, as well as having training and care, and young horses need a lot of the above in the form of hoof trims, attention to behavior, dental checks and vaccinations (they need multiple vaccinations for the initial doses, more than the others that just usually need boosters). Foals often don't sell the same month they were weaned, they may not even sell that year or the next. The fact is, you may have to wait for your market for years, and that requires more financial, time, and resource to be devoted to that foal, all the while you may have more foals coming (because we're so sure our little cutie will find a home before mom foals next year).

Breeding in itself is not a sin, it is something to do with your eyes wide open for the next two to five years, because that is what you are dedicating to that horse (foal) when you decide to let the stallion and mare together. NOT merely 11 months and the few months the foal is small. If you have to fire sale/dump them at low prices or giveaways, you are merely adding to a problem, and it isn't fair to the horses themselves, because we all know the less that goes into the planning of a foal, the less that the horse will likely expect or get out of its own life.

These are living animals with feelings, and they deserve a breeder's respect in that a basic level of comfort is promised and assured (i.e., if something happened and you could not sell any horses for the next five years, would you be able to care for your exponentially growing and complicated herd (in the fact that many will have to have separate housing and pasturing due to gender issues and personality conflicts) as well as finanically do so without any income from them at all? Even if the disastrous happened and hay were unavailable (a highly likely possibility many people are living righ now), or you were disabled, lost your job, etc. etc.

These are the things we think about. It's a little like deciding to have a baby yourself. You don't just get a cute little bundle to cuddle while it's a few months old. You get a person for the rest of your life, that has a direct need for you.

Not QUITE the same implications, but yes, it's a long-term commitment.

I hope you see the sense in what I'm saying, this applies to ALL of US, WE, I, YOU, THEM!!!!

NO lines, no societies, us.

I will say again that if you want a horse for only a pet, you can find them, even young foals, to purchase for next to nothing, and you get to choose the gender, the color, the size, etc. UNLIKE if you bred it yourself. These things are all a toss-up, and that is again why I say people love to breed, because it's a fact, we love to gamble.

Liz


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## maestoso (Dec 7, 2007)

Then why Nootka, do you breed and sell at all??

And so were back at square 1, and my cue to peace out!


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## nootka (Dec 7, 2007)

Why do I breed and sell at all?

Because I can (please don't just stop here, read the REST), and I do feel that I am doing so with the goals I have stated in mind:

sound horses with a purpose and value to multiple markets INCLUDING pets.

I have never had much trouble selling my horses or placing those for pets if I get one of those inadvertently.

I have NO FOALS coming for 2008. I have my foals from 2007 for tentative sale. If they do not sell, I will be just fine.

I am breeding or trying to breed one mare for 2009. If that works out, fine, I will still be great, regardless of the market. If I do not sell anyone, I will not breed for some time, probably until my2007 filly is old enough.

IF I have the space.

My horses win show titles, they have things to do (I break mine to drive), they are wonderfully personalitied, they also look really nice (I have heard unsolicited comments from MANY on this subject, though I try hard not to be barn blind, my horses also have faults that I am trying not to replicate for the future). Oh, and with rare exception, they are physically sound. When they aren't, I do the work to ensure that they still have homes and quality of life.

Have a look at my site and tell me where I'm wrong, I am fine with you pointing out the ugliness of my horses, the unsuitability for whatever you feel they are unsuited for, under or overpriced, self-flattering or whatever you feel. Really, I would love to know. Cast that stone, because I do not live in a glass house.

Otherwise, your intentions were merely to lead everyone around in circles, yourself included. I feel you're leading up to proving that you are going to breed and sell because YOU can, and as long as you consider all the rest, have at it, big guy.

"And so were back at square 1, and my cue to peace out!"

that part right there shows me that you are not willing to hear what anyone has to say, you have made up your mind. Good for you, but in the future, don't bother to ask any questions because people that act this way have no goal except to try and show how right they are, exactly what you're accusing everyone else of, when in fact, those that I feel have any worth at all to this industry/hobby of breeding miniature horses are going to hop on the bandwagon to agree with you, are those that really need to take a look at their own breeding programs and sales goals. SERIOUSLY.

Liz


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## HGFarm (Dec 7, 2007)

Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis said:


> lvponies said:
> 
> 
> > IHaven't you ever been somewhere where laughing would be inappropriate, but you get an attack of the giggles and can't stop yourself regardless of how hard you try?? In fact the harder you try, the more your eyes water, you snort and you giggle uncontrollably?
> ...



Oh me too!!!!!

You know, lighten up some of you folks. People get angry when the posts get opinionated, and now get angry when folks are just having fun. What folks MAY or MAY NOT have done in the 60's or maybe the 70's or ...... is a mute point and water under the bridge!

Rabbits, make sure your ring didnt drop into the brownie dough! You might break a tooth!

My own very personal opinion is that this world - all of it- is waaaay too worried about being politically correct, and I have never been, nor will I be EVER, accused of that! Cripes, folks cant even enjoy a good joke and some silliness.

I had a real visual on Rabbits, Jill, Mona, Vertical and others all sitting around a room with this conversation and rolling laughing as the conversation went on. I have to stop reading this at work though cause I am going to get in trouble for laughing too loud.

Enjoy the holiday season everyone and unwind- good grief!

Marty, keep those songs coming! And who's bogarting that.....


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## gregr (Dec 23, 2018)

Is the point of this that there are TOO MANY miniature horses? The prices seem to say there are too few, no?


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## Marsha Cassada (Dec 23, 2018)

The prices for miniatures in Oklahoma are low to free. Breeders and show folk get more for theirs, but regular little horses don't fall in that category. Horses right now are a luxury, and many younger people don't care about horses. The whole market is down for horses.


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## Sam (Dec 23, 2018)

Marsha Cassada said:


> The prices for miniatures in Oklahoma are low to free. Breeders and show folk get more for theirs, but regular little horses don't fall in that category. Horses right now are a luxury, and many younger people don't care about horses. The whole market is down for horses.



So this would be a good time to buy if we had a place to keep them? Makes me want land, even more, now.


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## Marsha Cassada (Dec 23, 2018)

I live in the country and have land, but our town has an area of pens by the arena and fairgrounds. People rent pens there for their horses and bottle calves. You might check with local 4H or school AG programs and see if there is something available near you. Some small towns around me allow hooved animals in town. Personally, I think all towns should allow this; residents can keep 6 barking dogs in a yard, but not a miniature horse or dairy goat??


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## MajorClementine (Dec 27, 2018)

I didn't read all 15 pages of this thread but thought I'd just pop in and add an interesting fact from my area. 10 years ago if you clicked on "horses" on our local classified ad site you'd see over 1,500 adds. 5 years ago that dropped to about 1,000 adds. Now it's between 600-800 (less in the spring more in the fall when feed bills are due  ). So, at least in my area, horse breeding and ownership are down. And I live in a more rural area where lots of people have horses. 

I'm a firm believer of responsible breeding. My sale bought mare popped out a surprise baby 7 months after I bought her. He's going to live his life with me but if I couldn't afford to keep him he wouldn't be worth much as an un-papered "class C" mini. I try to do right by the animals I have and help where I can. I respect those that chose to breed their animals and hope that they are doing all they can to improve the breed (dogs, horses, whatever).


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