# Backyard breeders



## Riverrose28 (Dec 1, 2011)

Are any of you others as upset as I am about this? Backyard breeders taking sales away from us that do it all properly? They don't send in stallion reports, they don't register the foals, they don't bring papers up to date, yet they make sales! I often wonder if they even properly watch the mares during foaling, or have vet checks, shots, worming, farrier, or halter training. I'm tired of it. Those of us doing it all properly are having a hard time and these guys are still selling. Sorry Just venting! :arg!


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## disneyhorse (Dec 1, 2011)

Yep, "backyard breeders" are the bane of any animal industry, from dog to cat to horse. There is such a spectrum of quality, as there is no standard to go by.

I'm not sure in all cases they are "taking away sales" as a buyer looking for a $500 pet with no papers might not really be looking for a $1200 registered gelding.

Heck, my first few horses (not mini) were grade horses, all very cheap. I probably wouldn't have transferred the papers anyway, had they had them.

Different markets.

Andrea


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## Songcatcher (Dec 1, 2011)

I don't call that back yard breeders. I call that irresponsible and unethical.

They misrepresent their horses to newcomers who then come here wondering how to get their horses registered.

But, it's a free country. Nothing you can do about it except expose the fact and hope newcomers will learn before they buy. I certainly don't want the government getting involved and saying who can and who cannot breed animals.


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## Equuisize (Dec 1, 2011)

I'm a backyard breeder, I just have a BIG backyard...but I can see my kids

from the backyard, the frontyard and the side yard and from my computer room

window.

I do everything humanely possibly for my mom and babies including registering.

I think Andrea hit the nail on the head.

You're not comparing apples to apples but those folks that start out with a

grade mini just might be your next customer as they grow and learn more about

the breed.

Probably if you were willing to sell your baby that you put all the care and love

into for the same price, they might be your customer now.

In our area you can buy, at least, a registered mini for bluelight special prices

should you choose to sell them that way. They may not be today's show quality mini but

they are registered, many of them.


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## Riverrose28 (Dec 1, 2011)

Maybe I should clarify, it's about being honest! If you sell a horse unregistered, tell the buyer. If you havn't kept up with the paper work tell the buyer. Seems like so many buyers are now trying to get papers straightened out from sellers that just don't seem to care, but are still making sales. As a breeder if you offer a horse for a low price the buyer says, whats wrong with them, if the price is too high they say that's too much. As a seller you need to work with a buyer, especially on price, but what is up with so many buying horses that don't have the papers done properly by the seller? Maybe I'm missing something here. It takes hours to keep up with paper work, not to mention money. I would never sell a registered horse with incomplete paper work.


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## Carolyn R (Dec 1, 2011)

I absolutely agree. Small and/or selective breeding does not equal a backyard breeder. It is about the breeder, big or small, that does not offer vet care, pre or post foaling care, worming, vaccinations, dental floats, hoof care, proper paperwork on file, lets not forget about hoofcare. It is also about the people that just don't get it. they want to buy cheap cheap cheap, but don't understand what goes into the proper care and proper horse husbandry skills. Lets not forget about the general health of the horses, soundness, correct conformation, and responsable breeding. A lot of heart and soul, not to mention tears, go into really caring for and *caring about* ones own horses/breeding programs, profit is usually the last thing to come into play.

If someone is able to breed and breed, has a ton of horses, is selling them for lower than pet prices, and says bussiness is good and they are making a profit, they are either lying through their teeth or cutting major corners! Either way it should be a huge red flag for buyers.

One of the many reasons why I threw in the towel.


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## Riverrose28 (Dec 1, 2011)

I not only feel bad for us responsable breeders that need to meet expenses, I also feel bad for the new buyer. These people answer an ad and don't know what to expect only that the price is right. These new people may be the future of our industry, they should be mentored and educated, not taken for a scam. It really is a shame I can't wave a majic wand and educate them before they get taken, and need to spend more money getting paper work straightened out, when for a couple of hundred more they could have bought a horse from someone honest. These sellers not only make reputable breeders look bad they are taking the unsuspecting for a ride, what a shame.

I might add that the term back yard breeder is from my days breeding dogs, it refers to someone that wants to make a buck, but doesn't really care about animal welfare or improving the breed.

Actually I can see my guys from my back yard, but I'm not a backyard breeder.


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## Wings (Dec 1, 2011)

What I'm over is getting on public forums and seeing people bagging out minis because of horrid teeth problems that have cost the owner a lot of money or have shocking conformation. Takes me a long time to explain that their minis are shocking because they paid $200 from someone who just stuck a bunch of horses in a paddock, let them breed and shipped the foals off to sell.

I'm over people enquiring over my foals and wanting to pay $300 for my show quality foals out of bloodlined show proven parents because "I can get them for that at the market"

I'm over cleaning up the messes left behind by uncaring breeders and sellers. Which I only do because the horse doesn't deserve to suffer. I hate being contacted for showing advice only to find out the horse is unreg, badly put together and doesn't have a chance of living up to the expectations of the new owner.

And the next time I say "she isn't a breeding prospect" and the response is "but she's coloured" I might have to throttle someone...

Thanks for the vent! I think I needed it


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## Riverrose28 (Dec 1, 2011)

Wings said:


> What I'm over is getting on public forums and seeing people bagging out minis because of horrid teeth problems that have cost the owner a lot of money or have shocking conformation. Takes me a long time to explain that their minis are shocking because they paid $200 from someone who just stuck a bunch of horses in a paddock, let them breed and shipped the foals off to sell.
> 
> I'm over people enquiring over my foals and wanting to pay $300 for my show quality foals out of bloodlined show proven parents because "I can get them for that at the market"
> 
> ...


Amen! I have people e-mail me all the time asking for advice about horses they ahve bought from someone else, and can't get the seller to respond! Crazy!


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## Hawks_Eye_Minis (Dec 1, 2011)

I think im one of the newbys your talking about..

I recently bought a lil colt buyer told me he was UTD on shots worming and hoof care... After we drove 4 hours to go see him obviously he wasnt UTD on hooves but no biggie hubbys a farrier... BUt she downright refused to give me any vaccienes ect.. I got his reg apps but had NO idea how to fill them out...STILL am confused on alot... Ive emailed the breeder peobably every other day for the past 2 weeks with NO reply....

Ofcouse why would she she sold me a sick mini he had strangles when i bought him she "garenteed" him to be healthy but now wont take my phone calls or emails.... Of course im peeved off about it...

Im JUST starting out in the minis have NO idea what im doing as far as showing the lady i got nemo from also said shed help me learn to show but now isnt answering ..

Im no longer able to ride thats why i got in to the minis .. They looked like fun especially showing them and driving them... And they HAVE ben fun but the paperwork and the headache thats come with trying to figure it out.. I wont lie untill i found this website i gave up trying to figure it out as far s registering my gelding...

Honestly id LIKE to show my colt ALOT and yes maybe in the future breed him BUT if i do all foals WILL have reg papers in hand when sold they will be up to date on everything i will NOT be like the beeder ive mentioned above i cant imagine how they thing there going to get a good rep when they do this sorta stuff...

BOTH ladies ( co owend stable) said they had reg papers all ready sent in but when i went and picked them up "oh its only apps" OK fine how do i fill them out and who do i send them too ect "well help you" then i never hear from them again....

i AM trying to learn the best i can im on here every day researching to find stuff i didnt know


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## Bess Kelly (Dec 1, 2011)

WOW -- all so true. I try to talk to every person who did/does inquire about any of my animals to first get a feel for their own equine knowledge, their plans for this animal, their facilities, their price range, etc. Then they are educated about minis !! Papers, shows, breeding, good/bad/ugly things they need to consider. Then the facts about my animals, registry, care, feed, vetting, vaccines, whys/why nots, etc.

We all do the best we can!!

Lady came by a few yrs ago, did all above, she looked and picked out a couple prospects and left. A few days later she calls me. She had bought 3 for less than price of one of mine -- BUT, they were now sick!!

She wanted me to help her. I listened to all she described, advised how to immediately check for some things, and gave her the names of a couple VETS. As you might guess, she was concerned with the cost but, I assured her it would be a better value than hiring a backhoe to bury them.





Yes, she did not contact me again....BUT -- she got a DEAL on the buy!!

As breeders, keepers, sellers we can only do so much. I guess that seller didn't offer any follow up help....just a low price.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Dec 1, 2011)

I try to explain to prospective buyers that not only do they get a registered horse that was well taken care of, they get US. If they have a problem, CALL US. Questions? We're here! We'll teach you to show and help you learn to drive.

We had one person want to buy a mini to drive, then bought one somewhere else. THEN wanted us to teach him to drive! Which we can't/won't do, as to accept payment would null our amateur status!


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## Songcatcher (Dec 1, 2011)

Well, as they say, "hind sight is 20/20." You _should_ have backed out as soon as you found out the seller was not providing what was promised. I'm sure you will know better in the future. Hopefully, someone will see this and know better _before_ they buy.



Hawks_Eye_Minis said:


> I think im one of the newbys your talking about..
> 
> I recently bought a lil colt buyer told me he was UTD on shots worming and hoof care... After we drove 4 hours to go see him obviously he wasnt UTD on hooves but no biggie hubbys a farrier... BUt she downright refused to give me any vaccienes ect.. I got his reg apps but had NO idea how to fill them out...STILL am confused on alot... Ive emailed the breeder peobably every other day for the past 2 weeks with NO reply....
> 
> ...


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## Lizzie (Dec 1, 2011)

At least now in dogs, there is a "Lemon Law'. This applies to those who breed and sell puppies from a given breed, without testing their breeding stock for the known genetic problems within that breed. If someone purchases a pup and later it is found to have (for example) hip displasia, and needing one or both hips replaced at enormous cost, the breeder can be sued and forced to pay for the medical fees. The Lemon Law was put into place several years ago now and has been proven effective in court.

There is an old saying which I like...

'The success of the BYB, rests solely with the ignorance of the public. Educate, educate, educate.'

This really applies to all animals. Sadly, most don't do their homework when purchasing an animal and find themselves faced with temperament and medical problems. Many uneducated, seem to think they will make their fortune, when breeding. Done correctly, usually means one is out a whole lot more money than one will ever make.

Lizzie


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## mini horse mania (Dec 1, 2011)

I didnt care about papers personally for myself until recently- I do have a few grade mares that I cant part with. I have had them for years and just as pets. You can barely give away a grade horse the way feed and hay has went up. I have seen grade minis for $50 at the sales. Some care about pedigrees and such, but some just want pets. Buyers that want a reg. horse to show will not buy a grade horse, and they should expect to pay more for a pedigreed horse.

Here is my pet peeve-

I know of a breeder out of state who has 100 reg mini mares- they are bred back to back every year with no break, and the foals are STILL WET when they are posted for sale with a huge price tag. When the mares get to old to produce, they are sold for premium price as pets. You can obviouly tell it is only for the money. IMO -I consider that a "mini mill" just like the puppy mills. You cannot guarantee UC Davis tested,black homozygous, tobiano homozygous and DNA tested on a 2 hour old foal-Im sorry.... The breeder does sell out fast. there was one colt that was 4 hours old-he was advertised for $700- and 2 days later, after my sister inquired-the price jumped to $1800- I just think that is wrong...the minis are half crazy, and are just there to make babies...


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## Hawks_Eye_Minis (Dec 1, 2011)

I know i shoulda backed out when i noticed that but she said shed send me all his paperwork in the mail when i got everything all that was in it was the reg papers partly filled out...

Let me get somehting out there i wasnt even planing to register my mini gelding untill i bought my stud since i was so confused about what to do plus hes never going anywhere hes my forever horse so why would i need papers? Plus he was gave to me with locking stifles so he was "pet" quality but now years later with physical therapy and a vet to help along the way hes almost 100% normal most days...

The thing that makes me so sour is Nemos breeder shes the oen that completly took advantage of me as far as knowing other then hawk i litterally had NO knowledge of miniature horses

I DID ask for help getting in to showing ect and i did ask for help with the papers but other then on here no ones ben able to help me...

If it was any other breed id be able to figure it out but with all the size limits ect it just gets over my head.. and i cant figure it out...


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## Riverrose28 (Dec 1, 2011)

Hawks_Eye_Minis said:


> I know i shoulda backed out when i noticed that but she said shed send me all his paperwork in the mail when i got everything all that was in it was the reg papers partly filled out...
> 
> Let me get somehting out there i wasnt even planing to register my mini gelding untill i bought my stud since i was so confused about what to do plus hes never going anywhere hes my forever horse so why would i need papers? Plus he was gave to me with locking stifles so he was "pet" quality but now years later with physical therapy and a vet to help along the way hes almost 100% normal most days...
> 
> ...


Bless your heart, this is what I'm talking about! You are a new person looking to get into minis and this person isn't helping you at all. All they have done is take your money and run. Such a shame.


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## Songcatcher (Dec 1, 2011)

mini horse mania said:


> You cannot guarantee UC Davis tested,black homozygous, tobiano homozygous and DNA tested on a 2 hour old foal-Im sorry.... The breeder does sell out fast.


Well, it IS POSSIBLE to guarrantee a foal will test homozygous IF both parents are homozygous.

I hope you mean that as a figure of speach about selling out fast. I cannot imagine anyone producing 100 foals a year and selling out fast for the prices you are talking about.


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## maestoso (Dec 1, 2011)

As long as backyard breeders are selling horses for cheaper than you are, they will always have a market. Let's face it, likely more than half of mini horse owners are "backyard buyers" meaning, papers mean nothing to them, nor does quality, they just want a family pet. So the $400 horse they get from the backyard breeder serves the purpose just as well as your $1000 foal.

The term backyard breeder, to me, is as ridiculous as using the term "gay" synonymous with stupid. You are all backyard breeders. You breed horses in your back yard, on your farm behind your house, whatever. Weather you breed 1 foal or 30 makes no difference. It is too general a term and there are plenty of familys who breed in they're backyards and only breed "pet" quality that are just as knowledgeable as anyone here. They take great care of their horses and do things the "right" way.

There's a billion arguments to be made about a flooded market and the only horse worth breeding is one of conformational quality. While I may agree with this, none of us can control what anyone else is doing. And what I find most annoying, are the people who cry "flooded market" but want everyone else to be the solution, instead of curtailing breeding in their own backyard.

If you want to sell your horses and are upset that breeders you consider to be inferior to you, then you need to match what they can offer their market. In most cases, that will mean reduce pricing. Not worth breeding a $500 horse? Than I'd suggest not breeding period. It's great that you keep up with your papers and have foaling cameras and mare stare and stay up to date on vaccines and sell and breed "responsibly" but the fact is, many many buyers don't care about any of that, so the end result is that it makes no difference.

Doing things the right way, not just in horses but in life, always takes more time, money and education. This will never change despite how much we'd like to complain about it. I hear what you're saying, but at the end of the day it's all about stupid people. Stupid buyers, stupid breeders. Once in a while we can educate a stupid and then we can celebrate small victories. But theres always more stupids coming out of the woodwork.


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## Relic (Dec 2, 2011)

Matt Drown...that was a very good post...


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## Jill (Dec 2, 2011)

A lot if people who stay in this hobby will learn to look for quality. While you may have missed selling them their first mini, maybe one day you will sell them a show or breeding mini. I know in myself, my first minis and the criteria used to chose them is not very comparable with how I selected the horses I have today.


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## MountainWoman (Dec 2, 2011)

I totally agree with Maestro's post. On FB yesterday, there was a huge discussion about horse slaughter starting again and I have to wonder if those who breed ask themselves first why are they breeding, will they commit to the foal, will they take it back, will they screen buyers and will they have a signed contract when they place their horses requiring a standard of care. I think lots of people think they can purchase a few minis, start having babies and make money and then they get in over their head. And I think most of these buyers start out with the best of intentions and don't understand the difference in well bred minis or the time and effort that goes into showing, thoughtful breeding, etc.

As always, no matter what, it's the animals who pay the price. I think we best represent the breed when we are approachable, friendly, take our horses out and about to parades, etc., and spend time educating the public gently.


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## HGFarm (Dec 2, 2011)

I dont particularly care for the term 'back yard breeder' as I have seen issues like this coming from big farms too that are supposed to be 'professionals'.

I think it is simply lack of ethics, a way to make a quick buck from an unsuspecting beginner or novice- con artists who talk a good story, take your money and then dont want anything else to do with anyone. They got what they wanted- your money.

I dont think it has anything to do with being a 'back yard breeder', but someone who lacks the morals and scruples to be honest and tell the truth- not a real horseman at all, as they are not breeding to better the breed- just want the almighty dollar. Those kind of people come in many sizes, shapes and forms- so buyer beware and do your homework BEFORE you hand them any money!


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 2, 2011)

Laurie I am sick to death of the term BYB- it should be "BIB"- Bad Irresponsible Breeder.

Breeding bad horses is not confined to a back yard, a big ranch, a small ranch, a rich person nor a poor one.

Sometimes it is caused by stupidity or ignorance, sometimes it is caused by greed, sometimes laziness.

Whatever it is, education of the purchaser is the only cure.


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## txminipinto (Dec 2, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Laurie I am sick to death of the term BYB- it should be "BIB"- Bad Irresponsible Breeder.
> 
> Breeding bad horses is not confined to a back yard, a big ranch, a small ranch, a rich person nor a poor one.
> 
> ...



AMEN!

If more people would do research, it would stop a lot of heartache down the road. I am a small breeder but I sure as heck don't consider myself a BYB by any stretch of the means. A lot of time and effort has gone in to the selection of my breeding stock as well as promoting that stock first in the show pen. I am a breeder that puts photos up quickly of new foals but only because I know the market is competitive. I stand behind every single foal as well. I'm honest and I'm always available to help out and give advice. My first repeat customer had a great year on the local PtHA circuit with her 2nd Pondering Oaks baby from me. We're always communicating about the "girls" and I make sure to do shout outs for her job well dones with them. Its important to be able to establish relationships with the people behind the horse and if they aren't willing to do that, maybe you need to find a different horse. I'm just as invested in seeing my clients successful as they are.


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## targetsmom (Dec 2, 2011)

I agree with virtually all of Matt's (Maestro's) post, but have a little bit of an issue with this:

"Not worth breeding a $500 horse? Than I'd suggest not breeding period...."

If every breeder that was responsible, used high quality breeding stock, and did all the right things quit breeding because they couldn't afford to sell foals for $500, what kind of future would the miniature horse breed have? I doubt the BIBs care but responsible breeders do.

The solution, as I see it, is education, and one of the reasons we are starting a 4-H Club. I would rather GIVE a foal to an interested 4-Her who was learning all about minis, than sell one to an unknown buyer for $500 or even $3,000.


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## wildoak (Dec 2, 2011)

Hawks eye... sorry you got burned on your purchase. There are still plenty of ethical, responsible breeders out there but unfortunately just as many of the kind you found. If you have registration/paper questions about your horse, I'd suggest you call either AMHA or AMHR and get them to walk you through it. They are usually very helpful, and should be eager to register your horse/horses.

I just watched a neighbor this morning load up probably close to a dozen minis for auction. They used to show and have had nice animals, but for various reasons have lost interest. I've been competing with him for several years, trying to sell horses I have invested in through mare care, vet bills, farrier, dentist, etc, when he can sell a $400 colt and make a profit. Guess I should be glad his horses are gone but it kind of broke my heart to see them all loaded up & gone, half of them probably never handled before.

Jan


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## HGFarm (Dec 2, 2011)

Oh Jane, there ya go! BIB is a great term as I think it encompasses the needed parties, no matter who they are. I think perhaps you have coined a new term! Bibs!






And yes, so sorry that you are having trouble with paperwork- I also have contacted the registries with various questions over the years and they have always been very helpful. Also, if you need assistance or have a question, you can always email me too- I would be glad to help with anything I can. [email protected] I sure hope you can get it all straightened out.


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## Hawks_Eye_Minis (Dec 2, 2011)

Thanks i got ahold of my geldings breeder now and shes helping me but nemos breeder i think i all but gave up on her... Who knwos whats true or whats going on... and yes i geuss i learned a lesson a big lesson but either way nemo has a home for life even if he cant be registered...

Im hoping i can just register him and move on from all this...


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## mini horse mania (Dec 2, 2011)

Songcatcher said:


> Well, it IS POSSIBLE to guarrantee a foal will test homozygous IF both parents are homozygous.
> 
> I hope you mean that as a figure of speach about selling out fast. I cannot imagine anyone producing 100 foals a year and selling out fast for the prices you are talking about.


he sells from $800- $2500 and are sold usually within 3 weeks of birth- he does produce over 100 foals per year, It just makes me mad that when the foals are 4 hours old- they are UC Davis tested- I didnt know you could get results back that fast!!!


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## Solo Farms (Dec 2, 2011)

I have often wondered if "pet quality" colts (or even show quality) were gelded before being sold if it would help this over population/ uneducated breeder situation. I bought an unregistered 2 year old miniature stallion at an auction for $10 (they couldn't get a bid) and gelded him. I later sold him for less than the gelding cost but at least I know he won't be able to cause any more "damage" in the mini world by breeding. I am not wealthy (not by a long shot) I did it for the love of the breed and for the horse. I don't think "pet quality" colts should be sold intact and I don't believe most buyers can or should be trusted to do the right thing and geld. If I find another $10 horse or find one online for free in my area, I would do again. I may be able to afford to only do it once a year but it would stop a whole lot of potential offspring from happening. It's too bad they don't have a cost effective procedure to fix the "pet quality" girls too.

I realize breeders may feel this approach would be more money they are losing but I think of the long term gain for the breed. Just food for thought...

Ok, got my flame suit on!


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## Minimor (Dec 2, 2011)

If he's selling that many foals that fast, for that kind of money, he's obviously got something that a lot of people like.



> I agree with virtually all of Matt's (Maestro's) post, but have a little bitof an issue with this:
> 
> "Not worth breeding a $500 horse? Than I'd suggest not breeding period...."
> 
> ...


I don't think Matt was so much saying that it is a matter of not breeding if it

isn't worth it to sell for $500 or less--I took his words as meaning if you're raising higher priced horses

to sell, and if they aren't selling locally because the guy down the road is

selling his little pets for $200 and people bypass your farm to go & buy the $200

horses...and if you're trying to sell further afield and still cannot get your horses

sold for the prices you want...and it isn't worth it to you to sell them for less, then what is the point

raising foals to sell?

There are a lot of lower priced horses out there no matter where in the country one

lives-and a good many buyers do want just a family pet or a lower priced horse to

have "just for fun". If someone wants a couple of horses just because they like

horses and want to have a couple to go out and pet and talk to every day, or even if

they want to give the kids cart rides up and down the road a couple times a week,

the fact is a $200 horse without papers can fill the bill every bit as well as a

$1000 registered horse of show quality. I've talked to people who were horse

shopping, and everyone was trying to sell them $1500 horses and telling them that

they have to have papers. These people didn't want to pay that much or perhaps

didn't have that much money to spend. One lady I know was quite discouraged when

she asked me if it really is better to buy a registered horse, and why. I was

perfectly honest-I know this lady well and I know that there is no possibility that

she will ever want to show a horse. What does she need papers for??? She bought

herself a nice little unregistered weanling for not very much money & I tell you no

lie when I say that little horse has been as well looked after as a horse can be.

The mare is healthy and happy and very much loved. She's well fed, has a nice,

safe, comfortable home and her personality is perfect for her owner. The mare is

good quality, with sound conformation. Why on earth would I or anyone else tell a

person like this that she needed to pay at least 5X what she paid for this horse to

have a horse worth buying? I don't see that the seller of her horse took anything

away from any breeder with higher priced horses, because this particular buyer would

not have spent that much money anyway-if she couldn't have bought a horse in her

price range she wouldn't have bought a horse at all.

In my books, a breeder that cannot make sales because of a pet breeder down the road

needs to look at their own marketing. If you don't want to offer horses at a

comparable price to the competition then you need to sell horses to a completely

different market, one where people are willing to pay more money. In order to be

successful there you have to be able to offer what those particular buyers want to

spend money on. You cannot control what anyone else does with their horses or what

prices they sell them for, you can only control your own program and prices.


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## targetsmom (Dec 2, 2011)

I guess my point is, that for ME to sell a foal for $500 or less, I know I would be losing money. If other people can do that, fine, but I will be losing money. So I might as well give them away locally if I can't sell them for what I would need to to make a profit. So I don't think I will stay in this very long - we will likely quit after this next year.


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## Songcatcher (Dec 2, 2011)

mini horse mania said:


> he sells from $800- $2500 and are sold usually within 3 weeks of birth- he does produce over 100 foals per year, It just makes me mad that when the foals are 4 hours old- they are UC Davis tested- I didnt know you could get results back that fast!!!


I would really like to know who raises and sells over 100 foals per year, within 3 weeks of birth, for prices of $800-$2500 each. Must be a very successful breeder who has a product that a lot of people really want.


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## jegray21 (Dec 3, 2011)

This is a good topic. All of my minis have come with papers that I have had to register...we have teeth problems and when I first got them there were many health related issues due to lack of vet care. I could have bought many very nice show minis for what I have paid in vet care fixing the problems. I am not new to horses and I know I paid too much but seeing them in the situation they were in I could't leave them.



I am torn now because of course they keep breeding they way they breed. Babies die in the field and they let the coyotes take the body. I am always nervous about talking about this because it is a small world and maybe someone might figure out who I am talking about...but getting a filly covered in lice is just wrong. If you can't afford to give proper vet care the don't have your horses. I have learned a lot from this forum and you guys have helped with the health issues



wrong or right I couldn't leave them there. I wasn't looking for a show mini then I was looking for a pasture buddy for my horse..I do think the grade minis lead to wanting show minis!


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## LaVern (Dec 3, 2011)

Very interesting topic. I agree with you Minimor. I some times think the no papered horses that I have given away, are loved and cared for better than some of the papered show horses I sell. I don't think most show horses are as happy as family loved pets -papered or not. Some of my old geldings that were given to kids now are loved and played with by their kids.

You can still find one team show up at the bar now and then. The owner has never been picked up and they always get him home. He has been offered lots for them, but no sale.


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## wingnut (Dec 3, 2011)

Minimor: You described our situation perfectly. Our horses have ranged in price from free to $900. Had we not been able to find horses in this range, we would not have horses today. We would have missed out on an amazing journey. We have done a small amount of local showing and done well. I hope to have at least two horses driving a cart next year. After nearly 3 years, I now know the world of miniatures better and know that it would be highly unlikely that we'd ever get further down the road with the more high end showing arena. It's just not in our cards, so to speak. It makes me very sad to even think about the idea of never having had this amazing opportunity, which is what would be the case if only non-"backyard breeders" had been our option.


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## shelia (Dec 3, 2011)

Most responsible breeders who have searched and gotten the best quality they can find and afford will still have some pet quality minis for sale from time to time. If a person wants a mini for just a pet, this is the best way to go. they have great deals on these. they are less likely to have health issues down the round which can be very expensive and heartbreaking.

If you buy a pet quality mini then DON"T BREED IT! There is a good reason it is being sold as pet quality. If you find later you want to get more involved in minis you do lots of research and get breeding quality.

Why waste your time and money on something that you have no background on. With no way to trace where it came from. If you want your children to be happy with a pet or you just want one for yourself, you need to be very careful what you buy.

It costs less in the long run to care for a well bred mini, than one than has been bred with no regard to to health problems.

Caring for a mini over its lifetime is going to cost more than what you paid anyway you go.


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## Minimor (Dec 3, 2011)

> Most responsible breeders who have searched and gotten the best quality they can find and afford will still have some pet quality minis for sale from time to time.


This is true.



> If a person wants a mini for just a pet, this is the best way to go. they have great deals on these. they are less likely to have health issues down the round which can be very expensive and heartbreaking.


I wouldn't be speaking honestly if I agreed with this statement. While I do not support any breeder who does not care for his horses properly....someone who doesn't feed his horses enough or who doesn't give good quality feed, someone who doesn't bother with deworming or vaccinations, someone who refuses to call a vet when an animal needs vet care...I would not tell someone to go and buy from a "reputable breeder" rather than a "pet breeder" because that's the only way they will get a healthy horse. Sorry, I just have not observed that to be true. Some of the pet breeders I know look after their horses as well as anyone else, maybe better than some of the breeders who are raising registered show horses. Some of the horses I've seen that have come from some of these pet breeders are nicer quality than some (registered ones no less) that come from some better known farms that would be considered "reputable" and the horses I know that have come from pet breeders are normal, healthy horses, as healthy as any that come from anywhere else. I would not feel like I'm being honest if I said otherwise.

And no--I am not someone who is raising and selling foals for $500 or less--though I have been known to buy one here & there that was in that under $500 price range, and they were not unregistered pets. I have never bought an unregistered horse--I have never bought a horse on application. I will not buy anything that is not registered (unless it is a rescue situation where I simply cannot leave the horse where it is at--dire need of rescue is the only thing that cancels out the need for registration papers!)


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## shelia (Dec 3, 2011)

Minimor said:


> This is true.
> 
> I wouldn't be speaking honestly if I agreed with this statement. While I do not support any breeder who does not care for his horses properly....someone who doesn't feed his horses enough or who doesn't give good quality feed, someone who doesn't bother with deworming or vaccinations, someone who refuses to call a vet when an animal needs vet care...I would not tell someone to go and buy from a "reputable breeder" rather than a "pet breeder" because that's the only way they will get a healthy horse. Sorry, I just have not observed that to be true. Some of the pet breeders I know look after their horses as well as anyone else, maybe better than some of the breeders who are raising registered show horses. Some of the horses I've seen that have come from some of these pet breeders are nicer quality than some (registered ones no less) that come from some better known farms that would be considered "reputable" and the horses I know that have come from pet breeders are normal, healthy horses, as healthy as any that come from anywhere else. I would not feel like I'm being honest if I said otherwise.
> 
> And no--I am not someone who is raising and selling foals for $500 or less--though I have been known to buy one here & there that was in that under $500 price range, and they were not unregistered pets. I have never bought an unregistered horse--I have never bought a horse on application. I will not buy anything that is not registered (unless it is a rescue situation where I simply cannot leave the horse where it is at--dire need of rescue is the only thing that cancels out the need for registration papers!)


What I mean by a reputable breeder is someone who takes good care of their horses and breeds carefully to insure the best quality they can. By quality I mean one that does not have defect that will affect it's health. I don't mean you should only breed something that will be in the top ten at the AMHA world show. (even though that is my goal)I also mean someone who will be honest with you.

I do, however think the best way to track the background is to have them in at least some sort of registery.

Some Breeders who only breed registered horses are not reputable breeders.

I don't mean to say don't get a rescue. Just be prepared, if it needs more care, and don't breed it.

I think getting a rescue for some people is a great idea. One less mini that will suffer, but don't create another one to take it's place or bump some other mini into that same fate.


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## rockin r (Dec 4, 2011)

Solo Farms said:


> I have often wondered if "pet quality" colts (or even show quality) were gelded before being sold if it would help this over population/ uneducated breeder situation.


I agree. But the problem with this is that "Pet Quality and Show Quality" is in the eye of the breeder. What you or I consider pet quality, someone else may consider show quality and vice versa. IMO if you sell just one colt/stallion intact, you are adding to the problem. I know people who have bred for next year and they still have most of last years foal crop that they could not sell. I have 2 stallions on my property. If they were to ever leave here, there would be no debate with the prospective buyer, HE WILL BE GELDED!!! I have not bred since Ziggi was born 4 years ago. And do not intend to anytime soon. There are just too many unwanted horses. We have people stop here all the time wanting to buy a horse for their kids, or to "Mow the lawn"..Nope, none here for sale. Nor will I refer them to anyone I know......


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## REO (Dec 4, 2011)

shelia said:


> Some Breeders who only breed registered horses are not reputable breeders.


This confuses me.


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## shelia (Dec 4, 2011)

REO said:


> This confuses me.


Sorry. What I mean is just because someone sells only registered minis does not make them a reputable breeder. I think it is important to know who you are buying from in some way or another. Find out whatever information you can on them and talk to them. Trust you gut instinct too. It is a long term investment.

I am glad I get questions. I know sometimes my posts don't come out the way I meant them to.


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## REO (Dec 4, 2011)

Oh ok!




I getcha now


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## bevann (Dec 4, 2011)

I so agree with Minimor.Lots of show horses have very unhappy lives as compared to the family pet.Many top name show horses are thrown out in a field and permanently pregnant.Who knows what happens to them when they can no longer produce.I am one of those who thought I would make money breeding and selling Minis, but it took me over 20 years to figure out I couldn't do it doing it my way.Vaccinating everything(including foals)trimming feet every 4-8 weeks, halter &lead breaking foals,trailer breaking foals,registering with AMHA&AMHR,screening buyers, not taking horses to auctions(did 1 time &went in the bathroom&cried because I didn't know who had bought my babies-turned out it was Penland of Sweetwater,no wonder I cried)bought back most horses when people no longer wanted my babies.I also kept my seniors who had been good to me.They die and are buried here.I lost lots of money, but made LOTS of friends.I was a backyard breeder and am now just a backyard lover and owner of Minis.


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 5, 2011)

The problem just isn't irresponsible breeders its also uneducated buyers. I think some buyers look at these minis as real cute, cuddly little horses and most look for the cheapest one out there. The thing is minis are still a horse, they cost the same for upkeep as a big horse, they can also be just as dangerous as a big horse. You have to treat them the same respect as you would with a big horse. There are still some people out there that will go buy a big horse to train up when they are inexperienced themselves. Things is irresponsible breeders are in the big horse industry as well, there are sale barns out there where you can buy a big horse for just $100 and people will buy them thinking they got one heck of a deal when in reality they didn't. So the important thing is to educate buyers for big or small on how to look for a responsible breeder.

Another thing is us breeders need to take responsibility in the foals we produce. We need to be educated in conformation and what to look for and what we should avoid, and we need to take it real seriously. Also we need to geld more, I've seen too many stallions I would love to own but as geldings. Not only are we responsible from the moment they are born but to the day they die. After all you are the one that has created that foal for your purpose, whether it be to show or to sell or whatever your pupose is to breed them for. You also have to be responsible on selling them. We can't sell them at give away prices anymore, its just hurting the breed in general. If you can't afford to keep them then you can't afford to breed them. Hold on to those foals til you get the price you want. Train them up and make them become respectful compainions. Either for show or the perfect family pet. We also need to communicate to our buyers, answer any questions they have, ask them questions, invite them to your home to see the horse in person.

Another thing as breeders we are responsible for keeping up with vaccinations, trimming, deworming, encourage buyers to do health checks. Also we need to keep up with registry paperwork. Its important to breed registered stock. It doesn't help the industry very well if people continue to breed unregistered stock. It can lead to more unwanted horses.

I've made mistakes when I first got into this breed, I've met some great breeders and met some not so great breeders. I've purchased some not so great horses, and some that have done well in the show ring. I haven't bred the best foals in the world, I'll admit that. Thats why I've stopped breeding and just showing my 3 geldings instead. One thing I don't regret is I've gelded more colts then I have bred. I would say my experience is due to being not educated. Do I know it all no, I'm still learning, but I would like to help someone not do the same mistakes as I have.

Another thing I've find amazing is it seems like every farm has to own a stallion(s), I've had own them sure, but don't think I will ever again. Breed for the best, send your best mare to breed to the stallion you like, if more people did this less mares would get bred.


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## Wings (Dec 5, 2011)

shelia said:


> Most responsible breeders who have searched and gotten the best quality they can find and afford will still have some pet quality minis for sale from time to time. If a person wants a mini for just a pet, this is the best way to go. they have great deals on these. they are less likely to have health issues down the round which can be very expensive and heartbreaking.
> 
> If you buy a pet quality mini then DON"T BREED IT! There is a good reason it is being sold as pet quality. If you find later you want to get more involved in minis you do lots of research and get breeding quality.
> 
> ...



I like this post.

I've met so many people who think minis are bad natured, badly put together beasts because all they have ever met is the $100 bargain buy from "that guy down the road." It can be a bit disheartening!


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## bevann (Dec 5, 2011)

I have tried very hard to educate my buyers, but you can't fix STUPID.sold 2 very nice little mares to a family as pets they didn't want to breed.Then they go to our state fair and see a breeder who cranks out Minis .Buy the daughter an unreg colt for Christmas because he is just sooo cute.Put him in with the 2 mares.time passes They go out July 4 and find a palomino colt-didn't even know the mare was pregnant.Every time I visited I ENCOURAGED castration, but the dad didn't want to cut off the horse's ba--s.I can't do that to him.Mom's attitude was-he's too little to do anything.They still have the yearling colt in with the 2 mares and are convinced that he won't breed his mother or the other mare since they never see them come in heat.The blacksmith keeps telling them to cut both.Neither of the colts are well behaved and 1 has tried to mount the daughter.Maybe it will take the kid getting hurt as a wake up call.I can't fix STUPID with them no matter how hard I try.


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