# Biblically Hostile



## Tab (Mar 10, 2012)

This is what has been going on in front of our noses. Just see what our is happening to our country. It is just so methodical that most people don't even notice. I have seen David Barton speak in person and he is an excellent historian. History, faith, and government history are all intertwined and to really understand the constitution you have to align yourself with real history. I was quite shocked to read this.

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=106938


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## tagalong (Mar 10, 2012)

Tab - a lot of the "evidence" listed on that blog is either wrong, distorted/twisted or perhaps intentionally taken out of context... and when I read that this guy declares that allowing gays to serve in the military was wrong, it just made me sad. ANYONE who is brave enough and strong enough mentally and physically to fight for their country should be free to do so.

The writer is obviously suggesting that Obama is Muslim and will do anything to further Islamic causes above all else - and that is just so distorted and laden with obvious agendas that it taints any/all of his points. You note that he does not note things that have happened to further faith issues - that would not help his "cause" - nor does he compile a list of suspect "biblical hostility" of activities of other Presidents - and there will always be something that annoys someone in some way. Most Presidents will have had issues on both sides of that line in one way or another due to the seperation of church and state - but this guy is conveniently overlooking that and trying to insist that only Obama has had such issues to deal with. He chooses to look at things with blinders on and only seeks to push his aforementioned agenda (and darn the actual facts in many cases) ... while trying to instill some paranoia in his readers. Playing on people's emotions and faith like that is reprehensible... IMO.

JMHO. YMMV.


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## tagalong (Mar 10, 2012)

Here is a small sample of what I mean and how much of his "evidence" is distorted..



> *Barton says: “November 2011 – Unlike previous presidents, Obama studiously avoids any religious references in his Thanksgiving message.”*
> 
> Barton is referring to the president’s Internet address about Thanksgiving. Considering that a public Internet didn’t exist until the 1990s, most previous presidents haven’t given such addresses. They have, however, issued proclamations — and so has President Obama. His Thanksgiving proclamation issued on November 16, 2011, explicitly mentions God and providence numerous times, including here:
> 
> ...


Chuck Norris is this "historian's" source ?!! ... see, facts do not matter. Glenn Beck has often said that facts are not that important to him - and it seems Barton is of the same opinion... and shame on him for playing on people's fears. Not terribly Christian or biblical of him... and I see Glenn "facts are not important" Beck is promoting Barton's paranoia - of course.







There are far more factual things out there to be concerned about than this sad attempt to mislead and fearmonger...


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## ohmt (Mar 10, 2012)

Thank you tagalong-i fear for our country when we believe "historians" that so obviously distort information or only give a small piece of the information to make their case. That is not informing people and just plain sad. I could only read a portion of this-just awful.


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## Katiean (Mar 10, 2012)

It really saddens me that there are actually people that can not see the forest for the trees. This president has done so much to distroy the american way of life and there are those that couldn'r see it even when they step in it. This President says that $4-$5 a gallon gas won't hurt our economy. I don't agree. I can either put gas in my car to go to the store (can't do anything once I get there) or I can buy food. I know I am not in the minority here. Then he tells us we HAVE TO provide birth control no matter how we feel about it. We HAVE TO perform an abortion no matter how we personally feel about it. He is very slowly taking away our rights and there are those that can not see it. This saddens me.


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## tagalong (Mar 11, 2012)

Gas prices went up when Bush was in office as well - and then down again and up again. It was no more his fault then than it is Obama's now. The oil cartels determine the price per barrel of oil - not the President. And even if we started all sorts of drilling right now, it would have no discernible effect on the price of gas for many years - but talking heads prefer to overlook that, hope you cannot realize that and assign blame instead.

Any GOP candidate who is assuring you that gas when he is President will always be $2.00 a gallon is blowing smoke in your eyes and up your skirt. It may go down but it will rise again and a Republican president could not do much about it either...


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## Jill (Mar 11, 2012)

Thanks for posting, Tab. Right now there's much to worry about when it comes to our Nation.


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## vickie gee (Mar 11, 2012)

Jill said:


> Thanks for posting, Tab. Right now there's much to worry about when it comes to our Nation.


Totally agree. Seems I even worry while asleep...last night *"this president" *was the main character in one of my nightmares. I am serious.


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## tagalong (Mar 11, 2012)

> Right now there's much to worry about when it comes to our Nation.


Maybe so - but Barton's lame attempts to create drama, fear & uncertainty based on distortion and inaccuracies are not one of the things to worry about. It is all just a big PR game for him... and the more people that buy into it without bothering to consider what is true and what is not - and just accept absurd claims at face value without bothering to check them out... the more he wins and gets his name out there. And THAT is his only goal. He trusts that the very people he is playing to will not bother to backcheck anything or raise even the simplest of questions.

We need to have facts (and I mean from ALL sides) - not paranoia and fearmongering. And yet, the latter seems to have far more effect. _That should be something to worry about... that facts are pushed aside in favour of rhetoric... _


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## Riverrose28 (Mar 11, 2012)

I watched the President speak last week, and he was very upset that gas prices have risen, I didn' hear him say it doesn't matter! I'm not going to debate the abortion or contraceptive issue, but where did you get your info on that. I did hear what Rush Limbaugh had to say about the GW student that was crazy as he didn't even get the facts right!


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## Katiean (Mar 11, 2012)

I don't listen to Rush Limbaugh or any other political commentator. I have watched Obummer say things himself. What he has said is that the high gas prices will not adversely effect the economy. I would like to give him a lesson. Gas goes up, transport goes up, prices in the store goes up. Wages do not go up. How does that NOT adversely effect the economy? Also, just because it won't help tomorrow, is that a reason to NOT DRILL for the next day. If you do nothing now you will NEVER slow down gas prices. In our state where unemployment is the highest in the nation, gas prices make people chose between eating and looking for work. Then Obummer turns around and wants to tell them they have to buy into HIS health care plan and if they don't, he will fine them. Now these are the same people that have to choose between putting gas in the family car to look for work or putting food on the table for their children. I am not even going to get into the religious part or what this president has done to this country. Oh, and what about the fact that he ticks off our allies and apologies to our enemies? IMHO anyone that votes for this president deserves the universal health care and they need to be old and need the health care that will be determined by a board if you are valuable enough to receive the care.


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## tagalong (Mar 11, 2012)

Most Presidents have ticked off other countries at times and also apologized/made restitution at times - but I guess it only matters if Obama does it. Of course.

The right and left both do a lot of the same things - and I get weary of the hypocrisy both sides show when discussing the other side. If there were more than two "sides" the entire country would be a lot better off. More than a lot better - it would be a refreshing change that would be good for the country and all of us.

The whole idea that we need to drill now to bring down gas prices soon is just smoke and mirrors - we could drill in Alaska for years and do very little to effect a change in gas prices. But Mitt Romney will stand there and say gas will only cost $2 a gallon when he is President and he will see to that - which is a joke amd mere political posturing. Gas may be $2 if he becomes President - and it may rise to $6 a gallon. And then who will he blame? It rose and fell when W was in office. It has risen and fallen with Obama in office. It will do the same for whoever the next President is - and smug, shallow promises will not change that. Drilling/tar sands/pipelines are a long slow process - they always have been and always will be. There will be no instant change. No matter what candidates promise. Nor can any President singlehandedly maintain a steady gas price - too many external factors come into play for that to ever be very successful.

Anyone here on Medicaid or Medicare? Welcome to universal health care - it has already been going on in different forms for a long time but just not under that label.... and the so-called Death Panels already exist via insurance companies - but talking heads and politicians would prefer that you not realize that. Of course not. But we have done the healthcare debate here before and there is no need to go through all that again.

ETA: You know, I may not have approved of George W. Bush and a lot of the things he did 100% of the time - but I never called him names or sneered at him or wished him ill or invented conspiracies about him or believed all the outlandish BS that went around in emails etc. I have always preferred facts to rhetoric and smokescreens - no matter who was in office.


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## Sonya (Mar 11, 2012)

Thats right Medicare/Medcaid have been denying seniors life saving meds, now everyone can get on board and join them with Obamacare...Anyone have any comments regarding Obamas Secretary of Energy Chu? His exact words were that he hopes gas goes up to $8/gallon. This is who Obama appointed.


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## vickie gee (Mar 11, 2012)

Regarding Secretary of Energy, hopefully "bye-bye" to you and all the czars of this and that. Would like to see some "departments of" abolished. Hope we can get the Keystone Pipeline.


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## Katiean (Mar 11, 2012)

And Obama should not be blamed because he is black. This is not a black or white issue. It is about a man that is H3ll bent on distroying the AMERICAN way of life. He has done a really good job doing that.

Tagalong, you really get that perscription for rose colored glasses checked. And this "poor Obama" attitude is really getting old. He is not being picked on for the color of his skin. He is being picked on for the deeds he has done.


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## Tab (Mar 11, 2012)

Agreed! Let men be known by their deeds!


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## ohmt (Mar 12, 2012)

Am I missing something, katiean, because I am not finding anything about where tagalong has said people are against Obama because of the color of his skin or that this is a black and white issue? Interesting.

Tag-i wish there were more people like you. I get SO tired of the gullible. I am not a big Obama fan, but the stories and accusations against him are absolutely ridiculous 9 times out of 10. Where do people even come up with this stuff and when did people start believing everything they hear instead if actually researching from UNBIASED sources. Our country is just plain sad.


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## Jill (Mar 12, 2012)

Tab said:


> Agreed! Let men be known by their deeds!


Amen. Too bad so many won't open their eyes to what is going on.


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## Katiean (Mar 12, 2012)

I do not understand why some people are SO sensitive when it comes to "THIS" president. He has failed us. Thats a fact. As have other presidents in history. We have all see the pictures in the cartoons of this president and there are those that get really ticked off. But on the other hand they will laugh at a political cartoon of another president. Hey, lets put this into perspective. A cartoon is just that, a cartoon. Look at it, laugh and move on. But this is just not the case of people that really like Obama. Hey, I really liked Bush. But if you want to put him in a "little bo peep" dress or what ever. I would laugh. But those in the cult of Obama have no sense of humor when it comes to this man.

It is agreed that if we start drilling now gas will not go down tomorrow. However, in a few years we will be importing less and less foreign oil. So what I am saying is that doing nothing is not an option. That is what people that are for the oil drilling are saying. However, this president wants to do nothing because it will not help before the elections.


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## ohmt (Mar 12, 2012)

Here you go katiean: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/obameter/promise/454/build-natural-gas-pipeline-from-

alaska-/

And it seems as though you should probably read some of this too: http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/promises/


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## ohmt (Mar 12, 2012)

And one more-then i'll leave it




I do hope you read them. http://www.politifact.com/florida/statements/2012/mar/08/lenny-curry/obama-promised-gas-250-gallon-says-florida-gop-hea/


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## Katiean (Mar 12, 2012)

Because this person says this or that it's gospel? I do not take others oppinions for the truth. I take what the person says or does for the truth. These articals still do not address WHY Obamaites are sooo sensitive when it comes to jokes about the man. Blonds do not get upset if you joke about them. Same diff. Also, Obama DID shoot down the keystone ppipeline. The very pipeline that would transport CRUDE OIL to Texas for refineing. WHY? You tell me.


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## Jill (Mar 12, 2012)

Obama is an anti-American and a racist. No one would sit in Rev. Wright's church for 20+ years otherwise. Some heads are just in the sand to be as polite as possible. Obama's been such a divisive, vs. decisive, leader in the areas of race, class, religion and politics. He's a warlord in those areas and a puppet of the progressive agenda.

I am not sure he's a failure, because I think he's done much of what he was "supposed" to do, none of which is good for the American people. It is stunning to me to recognize how many Americans will sacrifice personal liberty and freedom in exchange for a government handout. Government cannot give to anyone something unless it first takes it from someone else. No matter how you check the math, bigger government = smaller individuals.

Obama did not inherit this mess. He campaigned for it and on his empty promises to make things better. The hopey changey spin on socialism is anti-American and it is poisonous.

More of us know these things now, than in 2007 and 2008. I'm going to do my part to make sure he gets his pink slip this November.


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## Tab (Mar 12, 2012)

Couldn't have said it better!


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## Sonya (Mar 13, 2012)

Jill thats inaccurate, unemployment is 9.1% now.


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## Katiean (Mar 13, 2012)

Unemployment is over 13% in Northern Nevada (ch. 2 news tonight). Since I live here that is THE ONLY NUMBER THAT MATTERS to me. I live in a tourist driven economy. People drive here. If gas is too high they don't come. Hotel rooms are left empty, maids don't have rooms to clean. No one stuffing EXTRA money into the machines, casinos lose money. No one in the hotels and casinos there is then no one in the restraints, waiters, cooks and bus persons are then not needed and from there it all trickles out wards into the community. Homes that once sold for $375,000 are now repossessed and the bank asking price is $60,000 - $100,000. There is house after house empty. Several houses on the same street and even next door to each other are repos and empty. This is what we are looking at every day in Northern Nevada. On top of that You want to add mandated health insurance and higher prices at the pump. Oh, I think I would welcome Obama back for another 4 years.....NOT.

He may not have single handedly done this to us...but, it is HIS policies that are digging us further down and I don't care if he is black, white or purple, he is in charge and if he wants to put this off on Bush, then what has HE been doing for the past 3 years?


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## Jill (Mar 13, 2012)

Sonya said:


> Jill thats inaccurate, unemployment is 9.1% now.


True! Hope and Change, my sister!


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## Tab (Mar 13, 2012)

Sonya and Katiean, I hear you too! I'm



for this country.

This might be slightly unrelated but I think we were _almost _doing better on unemployment (due to his division closing) without my DH having to commute to work 5x a week (gas). We are extremely blessed to be back in the realm of employment. I know of people who had to get emergency extensions on their unemployment because it is just so difficult to get a job, and that was not for lack of effort. We are thankful but the numbers were tight and Rog was threatened to be laid off this Winter. Thankful God has blessed him with a wonderful boss who has fought to keep him employed. He is a reliable employee. This was the _first _time my hard-working husband had the threat of being laid off in the past _*13 years*_ of employment! The last time he was laid off was as a young adult and he did not have any seniority.

I think that some may be a tad bit embarrassed to admit that this wasn't what they were expecting either. I know of more than a few that are changing their voting strategies because of it.

Here is a great segment to an article that I think is fitting our current situation. Again, putting it better than I can.

"Just off the top of my head, a few of these concerning issues include: a debt crisis that has us hurtling towards a Greek-style collapse, entitlement programs going bankrupt, a credit downgrade for the first time in our history, a government takeover of the health care industry that makes care more expensive and puts a rationing panel of faceless bureaucrats between you and your doctor (aka a “death panel”), $4 and $5 gas at the pump exacerbated by an anti-drilling agenda that rejects good paying energy sector jobs and makes us more dependent on dangerous foreign regimes, a war in Afghanistan that seems unfocused and unending, a global presidential apology tour that’s made us look feeble and ridiculous, a housing market in the tank, the longest streak of high unemployment since World War II, private-sector job creators and industry strangled by burdensome regulations and an out-of-control Obama EPA, an attack on the Constitutional protection of religious liberty, an attack on private industry in right-to-work states, crony capitalism run amok in an administration in bed with their favored cronies to the detriment of genuine free market capitalism, green energy pay-to-play kickbacks to Obama campaign donors, and a Justice Department still stonewalling on a bungled operation that armed violent Mexican drug lords and led to the deaths of hundreds of innocent people.

I’m sure I missed a few things, but the list is just for starters."


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## ohmt (Mar 14, 2012)

Katiean-WHY do you keep bringing up the color of his skin at all? You only make it an issue when you bring it up. No one else has said anything about it.

Oh Fox-they change their opinions so quickly: https://m.facebook.com/profile.php?refid=7&pos=1#!https://fbcdn-video-a.akamaihd.net/cfs-ak-ash4/437766/943/10150596136624503_35649.mp4?oh=2c7bd33f261164a564ae2b98b325308b&oe=4F62C300&__gda__=1331872512_8e208aa8ddea793ec2cf01e5b3ed2385

you DO realize that Obama has not said no to Keystone right? Only that he said no to having it done without first taking the time to make sure it is done right without having it be more detrimental than good? If you know anything about where Keystone is supposed to go through, you would be grateful it is not being rushed. I believe I already posted a link to an article you could read about that-that is not biased, but you must have missed it.

Jill, now I KNOW you have more to contribute than a skewed facebook "sticker" 

I despise those things on facebook and in emails. People think they actually know something after seeing them instead of researching for themselves. That goes for both sides.

Now I am far from being in a "Obama cult" as some here like to put it, but I find the absolutely ridiculous accusations against the man disheartening. Does he deserve some blame? Absolutely! I have posted links to articles saying so already, but people go much too far. I only urge people to research from credible sources that are as unbiased as you can find. It is harder to find them these days, but they are still out there. Sadly, most of the ones made easily accessible to us seem to be the most biased of them all.


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## tagalong (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks *ohmt* - so many seem to jump on rhetoric and take it as fact - all while claiming that they do not base their opinions on what anyone else says. As I noted, gas prices soared when Bush was in office and it was not all his fault, either - and yet OMG!!!! The high gas prices now MUST be all Obama's fault!! No - he cannot control it - no President can. But if you choose to listen to the rhetoric and speechifying as opposed to facts...





If Romney is elected and he cannot keep that $2.50 a gallon promise (because he can't and gas will continue to rise and fall) - then surely that will be Obama's fault as well.

DId you also not realize that the Keystone pipeline is also to aid in EXPORT of oil? It would not all stay here.



> I despise those things on facebook and in emails. People think they actually know something after seeing them instead of researching for themselves. That goes for both sides.


I hate them as well - and they are rarely accurate in any way. In past political threads here, viral emails etc. would be presented as facts - and when some of us provided the links to show they were not true, we were summarily dismissed as uninformed. Because we preferred facts as opposed to that style of BS and rhetoric.



> Tagalong, you really get that perscription for rose colored glasses checked. And this "poor Obama" attitude is really getting old


I do not have rose-coloured glasses, *Katiean,* I never have. I also do not have tunnel vision that makes me see only one point of view or one side to anything. There really is more than one side. I also have my political BS detector going at all times. I find it rather sad that if I do not loathe Obama in every way (or the "right" way) that I must have "rose-coloured" glasses on or be inferior/stupid in some way?

Where did I ever say Poor Obama?_ I never would._ I just pointed out that facts are hard to come by and hypocrisy rules. You will excuse Bush for gas prices going up but Obama gets skewered for the same thing? Neither one of them were at fault. I have issues with many of Obama's policies and am far from his biggest fan.

You need to check out *ohmt*'s non-partisan links to see how wrong much of that rhetoric can be.

And *Katiean *- YOU are the only one here mentioning race until Jill cam up with the old tired comment that Obama is racist. You are the only one who has mentioned the colour of his skin - several times now. I never even referred to it in any way. I have far more important issues with him than the colour of his skin (not even on my radar) - which seems to be something you are very concerned about...

So now I am some kind of Obama-ite becaue I do not insult the man/office? I never called Bush names either. I just find name-calling to be pointless and juvenile. There is no need for it, IMO. I prefer discussion of the facts to name-calling and rhetoric. But when it is very easy to point out the inaccurracies in comments like the column that started this thread, it seems many prefer not to be bothered with facts and will just take what they are spoon fed. That makes me me rather sad, to be honest.



> Now I am far from being in a "Obama cult" as some here like to put it, but I find the absolutely ridiculous accusations against the man disheartening. *Does he deserve some blame? Absolutely! *I have posted links to articles saying so already, but people go much too far. I only urge people to research from credible sources that are as unbiased as you can find. It is harder to find them these days, but they are still out there. Sadly, most of the ones made easily accessible to us seem to be the most biased of them all.


Exactly right, *ohmt*. Well said. I am not a great Obama fan by any means - and he has many policies that I do not care for - but some of the accusations are completely ridiculous and nothing but political smoke and mirrors designed to deceive and incite paranoia and fear at times. I would say the same thing about similar accusations made about any President... and have.

No rose-coloured glasses here. Or tunnel vision.

ETA: *ohmt *- your last link is just to a Facebook news feed...


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## 2minis4us (Mar 14, 2012)

Thanks Tagalong, you are able to put into words what I have a hard doing, and OHMT





This goverment is so messed up I can't see ANY President fixing things.


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## Sonya (Mar 14, 2012)

Here is a link of Obama blaming Bush for gas prices back in 2008 while on campaign.



Guess it was ok to blame Bush back then, at least according to Obama. Just thought it was interesting people saying on this thread that it's not the pres fault of the prices, something I somewhat agree with, but apparently Obama (and the left) thought it was ok to place blame then.


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## ohmt (Mar 14, 2012)

Sonya-i already posted a video of Fox explaining why the president can not be blamed for gas prices back when Bush was in office too. It is not just the left, it is BOTH sides playing the same game.


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## Jill (Mar 14, 2012)

Oh man, Sonya. There you go. Confusing liberals and lefties with facts and video footage. Don't you know they hate that stuff?


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## tagalong (Mar 14, 2012)

No, Jill._ Sonya is actually backing up what some of us have been saying all along. That BOTH sides pull the same crap. Obama blamed Bush as most Dems probably did. The same way Republicans are now blaming Obama. Get it? Neither side is correct or factual. _



> Confusing liberals and lefties with facts and video footage.


It was not confusing at all - it just backed up what we have been saying in this thread.

Even the original premise of this thread - Barton's smug little "reporting" - is seriously flawed and strays from the truth. But I guess we must not confuse conservatives and righties with facts (just having some fun with what you said - it works both ways, you see?)...





And because this cannot be said enough...



> It is not just the left, it is BOTH sides playing the same game.


Amen to that. And we need to call out _both_ sides on their nonsense.


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## Sonya (Mar 14, 2012)

Yes Tag you are right, they both place blame, just thought it was funny that our now pres blamed Bush back then but certainly won't take responsibility now, even when his secretary of energy hopes gas hits 8$/gal.


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## Jill (Mar 14, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eZxnT5tHVIo


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## Sonya (Mar 14, 2012)

Mary Lou he did say he hoped gas prices reach European prices (roughly 8$ us gal) to force people to use alt means. I am not aware of electric semis or harvesters. So what do farmers do when gas prices double to triple the current prices? Food triples, who can afford a 6$ head of lettuce? It's not just about folks driving back and forth to work.


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## tagalong (Mar 14, 2012)

> Yes Tag you are right, they both place blame, just thought it was funny that our now pres blamed Bush back then but certainly won't take responsibility now, even when his secretary of energy hopes gas hits 8$/gal.


You're right, Sonya



- it is funny in an ironic way - as most political stands are... but he - or any President - cannot really accept responsibility for gas prices. Even if they release some of the reserve, the ultimate price is nothing they are able to control... but whatever party is not in the White House hopes that voters are not bright enough to figure that out.... it is just one big game for politicians.

And then when interviews or statements are sliced and diced and edited and different meanings slapped on them by the media, the Game gets more and more twisted.


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## Sonya (Mar 14, 2012)

That you tube video is not spliced, that's Obama speaking unedited (from his Telepromter I'm sure)...that is as unbiased as you can get, much more than the Huffington ...that video is actually a plug promoting Obama if you read the credits.


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## Katiean (Mar 15, 2012)

All I have left to say is I have nothing but pitty for those that will not look at both sides. Those that refuse to see the The bad that someone does just because they may have done some good. The people that defend tooth and nail, someone that only has their (themselves) best intrest in mind. I am so, so, very sorry for those people.


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## Jill (Mar 16, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B6zM5ldO35A


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## Danielle_E. (Mar 16, 2012)

I hope that some of you realize how you are portraying yourselves here and it's sure not a pretty picture. If I didn't know any better I would think young kids had hijacked their parent,s identity.


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## Katiean (Mar 17, 2012)

Danielle_E. said:


> I hope that some of you realize how you are portraying yourselves here and it's sure not a pretty picture. If I didn't know any better I would think young kids had hijacked their parent,s identity.


WHAT???


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## andi (Mar 17, 2012)

I think Danielle is probably referring to the shallow arguments that appear to be based on bumper stickers and YouTube videos. Maybe some more research went into these opinions, but if so, that information isn’t being presented. Either those posting this "evidence" think that "we" are not smart enough to understand the actual research that went into forming these very strong opinions, or no research was ever done. Bumper Stickers, Chain Emails, you tube videos, random racial attacks; they all seem like stereotypical childish behavior.


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## Sonya (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't know how posting a YouTube of Obama giving a campaign speech is childish or biased, but whatever.


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## Jill (Mar 17, 2012)

I guess Obama and his own words are childish? Or we are childish to point out what Obama in his own words has told us? What's that saying? When someone tells you they're a snake, believe them? I do. Obama's own words, actions and friendships show anyone who's willing to see exactly who and what he is.


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## andi (Mar 17, 2012)

I am not sure if everything posted on this topic would be considered childish, but my opinion is alot of it is. But now that you bring up the campaign video posted, yes I would consider that childish and not a "valuable" addition to teaching or learning about politics. It is simply, "well he hit me first". Not to sound like a parent dealing with children, "I don't care who hit who first, you both should know better." I definitly would also consider, "whatever", a typical childish response.


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## Sonya (Mar 17, 2012)

There was conversation earlier regarding if a pres is responsible for gas prices so I was just showing others who may not have seen that Obama does believe the president is responsible, based on failed energy policies. I always find it amusing how some people on this board come in with nothing of value to add other than insults to others. So ya 'whatever'




.


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## andi (Mar 17, 2012)

I have probably started about 10 responses to these "political posts" Sonya, and every time I do, I realize it is often like fighting with children and that when a good point is made it is often completely ignored and the topic is just shifted. Therefore when Danielle posted her concern it really hit home and I chose to reply. It was not to personally attack, but to shine a light on why these political posts, and for that matter, most all political discussions, end up a childish fight with no actual conversation about the issues.

When it comes to pointless personal attacks with no value, that is what this entire post STARTED AS, along with about 10 other random posts in the last month or so. They all have been voicing ONE single side, and REFUSING to give any credit to the other side. They are never meant to actually start discussion with anyone who disagrees or valuable debate, they are put out there to work us all up and their tone has been pretty much been, "go ahead, disagree with me, I dare you". I am sorry, it is childish and should not be considered valuable in any way.

Lastly, whatever you have to say, I will always listen and respond. I don't mind people disagreeing with me and value my freedom to defend myself. For me, "whatever", is not an option.


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## Jill (Mar 17, 2012)

With you, Sonya. I don't get the argument at all. What a key person says / said is exceedingly relevant to a discussion about a situation. I swear, sometimes I think there are resident liberal trolls trying to wear conservative clothes. But, yeah oh yeah "whatever". Too bad insight and common sense aren't contagious.


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## andi (Mar 17, 2012)

I don't disagree Jill that what someone says should weight in peoples opinion of them. But the fight that, "well he did it too", is childish and not solving anything. That is a waste of time. If we are all agreeing that the president has no control over gas prices than why can't we just say that? It is distracting people from actually talking about the issues.

I am sorry, but calling me a troll, with no insight and no commen sense is about as personal as it gets. It is definitly much more personal than saying someones argument seems childish. I have had no problem speaking my views. I fully agree that "we" as a country, possibly as human beings, do not have the moral integrity as a whole, to sustain an economy or country without capitalism. The vast majority are motivated by money and greed, the poor and rich alike would take advantage of the situation and it would be a disaster. I HATE being forced to define myself, but if forced, I am far more conservative than liberal.


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## Sonya (Mar 17, 2012)

Ya know, the majority of my friends are liberal because they are who I work with and spend the majority of my time with....we can debate and disagree until we are blue in the face (and maybe even some name calling) but at the end of the day, we are still friends...people on this board can not seperate that for some reason....I have seen folks say they would refuse to purchase a mini from a certain breeder or recommend them because of their passionate political views, that is childish. So yes I tend to say 'whatever' when people make things personal like calling me or others 'childish' for posting a video that we feel is relevant to the conversation....if I didn't have that attitude then I suppose I would lash out and call you a pot stirrer, but I don't operate that way.


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## andi (Mar 17, 2012)

I am not sure about what private conversations are going on, but the idea of that there are members of the board that would not deal with or recomend someones horses because of political views is concerning. If it is happening, then those are not people that I deal with privately or would care too. For me I do not connect the two and honestly have no personal problem with anyone because of a different politcal view.

For me, "well he said it first", is a childish argument, and I don't mind someone coming right out and stating that opinion. It is a tactic to avoid and distract, it in no way deals with the issue at hand, weather or not the statement is correct. I would consider it a weak argument and would even say, childish. Now did I come out and attack you on here? No, someone else called some behavior childish. You asked WHAT?!. I ventured a guess, if I had to find something childish, that would fit the description, and explained why. I gave you the respect to always explain my thought process, and I got, "whatever". I don't consider that any more mature. Just as saying that you would insult me, but you "don't operate that way", is childish. You are getting all the personal satisfaction of insulting me, while still claiming to be to above me to stoop that low.


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## Sonya (Mar 17, 2012)

James I didnt ask 'what' to Danielles post. I only asked why it was childish toyou to post a youtube of Obamas campaign speech regarding why gas prices were so high....you need to make sure who you are responding to before you press enter.


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## andi (Mar 17, 2012)

I do genuinely apologize Sonya if my words sound more personally attacking than they are meant too. I honestly do not mean them in that manner at all and can understand that the combination of politics and online discussions can make it hard to understand someone’s tone or intent. I stand behind my opinion of your video post, but realize that my insight may have been better received in direct response to your video, not used in a way to "team up" against you or general "childish behavior." 

 I love these political topics and the opportunity we all have to learn and see others view points. I do get very worked up though when what could be good conversation seems to get lost and wasted by poor debate tactics. I agree that coming on here and just calling people childish is not the right way to go about it. I think that is just as wrong as the issues I had with your Video being posted. That is the reason I didn’t just come on and say, "Go Danielle!". I tried to explain were the view was coming from in a complete unbiased manner. In all honesty, I think unless we are conversing with full respect for one another and holding our own arguments to ridiculously high standers, then we lose the entire value of the topic.


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## andi (Mar 17, 2012)

We were obviously posting at the same time Sonya. 





I am sorry that I misspoke. I think this is a good example though. If you remove were I misspoke from my last post. Does it change the other 99% of what I said? I don't mean that to be smart. I think this sort of shines light on the problem. I made a mistake, that made no difference to the legitimacy of my argument, but the rest is 100% ignored due to it. I understand that is unfortunately often how the world works. But I think if we want to have truly honest conversations, where we are interested in what each other is saying, treating it as a possibility to learn and benefit from others opinions, maybe even change our own, we need to expect more from ourselves and each other.


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## Tab (Mar 21, 2012)

tagalong said:


> You're right, Sonya
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Uh, that's not what we all heard from the Bush haters. Apparently the war is all about oil and had nothing to do with anything else. Bush was blamed heavily for gas prices when they were a heck of a lot more reasonable than they are now. It's amazing how one can dish it out (about Bush) but they can't take it (about Obama). Gas affects more than people driving back and forth to work? Certainly. People who work, period. Who cares what they drive or what machinery they use, it all needs energy of some sort.


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