# Where can I purchase...



## Annabellarose (Mar 15, 2010)

I bought myself a (good beginner's quality) Miniature Horse harness. It has open loop tugs (it does not have wrap straps, nor is there a place for adding them) and a full breeching. I will be using it both with an easy entry cart with shaft stops as well as a show cart with shaft stops. It is by no means a fine show harness, but I am going to test the show "waters" in it anyway as it is a pleasant looking harness and I am just starting out in the Miniature Horse show world and I would like to "get my feet wet" before I decide to invest in a more expensive fine show harness. I do use a full breeching at home, but when I show I probably will not show with a breeching (as seems customary in the breed ring; how unfortunate). For showing I would like to locate, purchase, and use a false breeching. I have been looking around on the internet and I am struggling to locate a Miniature Horse size false breeching. Any recommendations? Do any of you use a false breeching in the absence of a full breeching while in the show ring? I am worried that with open loop tugs the cart will run up on the horse without breeching. The shaft stops alone do not seem adequate enough to me. Your thoughts and experiences please.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2010)

Your thoughts are sound- shaft stops are not sufficient with open tugs and you do in fact need some sort of breeching to be safe. I have not tried false breeching previously but will the next time I hit the breed ring as I believe it would help my horse to back the cart. I plan to have a local leatherworker make one for me based on a picture from Sally Walrond's book and that should work nicely.




He does mostly Western tack so is more used to the kind of thick, wide, comfortable strap this project will require and I know he won't charge me an arm and a leg. I don't know of any mini vendors that currently carry one but I bet we could get Lisa of Ozark Mtn. or Janie of Chimacum Tack to make one. Heck, a padded synthetic strap would be nice as you could easily wash the poop off of it!

Even with a false breeching you may want to add wrap straps to your harness just for use in the breed ring. I don't know from any personal experience that the false breeching might not slip back up the shaft under pressure, leaving you with the cart slipping forward through the tugs and hitting your horse's heels. If you can secure the false breeching to the shaft in a firm way such as with a tack or by threading it through a footman's loop or something that would be fine but I wouldn't trust it for something so important otherwise. It's easy to switch out open tugs for wrap straps or French tugs, all you need to do is buy a new girth and tug loops. Should be pretty cheap!

Leia


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## RhineStone (Mar 15, 2010)

If your harnesss doesn't have wrap straps, it at least has buckles to "tie down" the open tugs, right? Otherwise, you risk your cart flipping up and over without them being tied down at all.

Personally, if you believe in breeching, I would show in breeching. You seem to have an understanding of why it is there, and would rather use it. Just because it is customary (for no good reason other than there is too much leather on the horse, which IMO is NOT a _good_ reason) to not use breeching in the show ring, doesn't mean it is _against_ the rules to show with it. It's just that the exhibitors tend to not be used to seeing it. I bet the majority of exhibitors don't even know it's intended purpose, which is another reason they don't use it. If they did, they might be more apt to leave it on. I have a motto, "When you know better, you do better." It's one thing for the Arabs and Saddlebreds to not use breeching on a load that weighs probably less than a 1/3 of their own weight, but I think it is entirely different for minis to try to hold a load back with their bony withers that is sometimes at least half their own weight or more.



OK, off my soapbox.

If you have the dimensions you need for the false breeching, Driving Essentials can also pretty much custom build anything you want. I would definitely use the footman's loops like Leia said. That way, you know your false breeching is not going to wiggle up the shaft, especially because it is going to want to with the shaft narrowing towards the front, or get forced back with pressure. I'm not sure you would have to get an entirely new girth to use wrap straps, as all you need is a loop on the bottom of the girth to keep the wrap straps from moving back away from the girth. The wrap strap on my mom's harness is just one strip of leather with two buckles and keepers, and is run through the ring on the girth.

Myrna (who wishes that _everybody_ would learn what each piece of harness or cart does before they add or subtract it.)

p.s. the other day we were driving our big horse to our marathon vehicle and found that he seemed a bit hollow in the back. We noticed that he was tending to pull the vehicle with the saddle/tugs, and so we shortened the traces, and whalla, no more hollowness! We just got the vehicle last fall and are still tweaking adjustments to make it perfect.


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## Sue_C. (Mar 15, 2010)

I have used false breeching for several breeds, and types of carts, and haven't (yet) have one slide. I do, however, cut a 1" X 10" strip of black vet-wrap, and wrap the shaft in the area where I intend to wrap the straps holding the breeching. That, and wrapping that strap as tight as possible, will keep it from moving.

I do agree that a footman loop would be perfect as well...perhaps even more foolproof.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Personally, if you believe in breeching, I would show in breeching. You seem to have an understanding of why it is there, and would rather use it. Just because it is customary (for no good reason other than there is too much leather on the horse, which IMO is NOT a _good_ reason) to not use breeching in the show ring, doesn't mean it is _against_ the rules to show with it. It's just that the exhibitors tend to not be used to seeing it.


I don't like high heels either, but I wear them if I'm going out on the town. It's part of the appropriate dress code just like a tiny, useless evening bag and annoyingly flimsy pantyhose. You dress appropriately for where you're going. In the breed ring that means fine harness which traditionally does not include breeching. You can wear a jogging suit to the ball but don't expect the judges ("fashion critics") to take you seriously.





There are a lot of things I won't do in the name of fashion from wearing stilettos to checking my horse up, but I have no problem taking off the breeching for a couple of brief classes. It seems to me a false breeching is a great compromise as it has most of the same function/comfort but leaves the equine picture uncrowded. It's a win/win!



RhineStone said:


> I'm not sure you would have to get an entirely new girth to use wrap straps, as all you need is a loop on the bottom of the girth to keep the wrap straps from moving back away from the girth. The wrap strap on my mom's harness is just one strip of leather with two buckles and keepers, and is run through the ring on the girth.


On most of the mini harnesses I've seen the overgirth is sewn under a leather loop on the girth and there's no way to get it out short of cutting the stitches as the buckles won't fit through it. It's much simpler to simply buy a new girth with wrap straps and switch them out depending on what kind of driving you're doing.

Leia


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## susanne (Mar 15, 2010)

I know that some mini judges abhor breeching, but at Friday's clinic, Portia Kalinka said that she would never penalize a turnout for using breeching and that she has extra respect for those who do. She just wants it to look good, be clean and fit properly, and said that it's up to those who want to use it to make it look good on their horse.

BTW, I refuse to wear high heels and I especially never wore the hump-me-pumps that some consider essential. In my "former life" I went to many toney, "high society" engagements (opera, symphony, gallery openings, snooty fundraisers and galas, etc.) and my gorgeous flat-heeled pumps were never frowned upon. Too bad my cat decided they may a very stylish kitter litter...

My point: you CAN have your cake and eat it, too. You just have to do it with style.


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## RhineStone (Mar 15, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I don't like high heels either, but I wear them if I'm going out on the town. It's part of the appropriate dress code just like a tiny, useless evening bag and annoyingly flimsy pantyhose. You dress appropriately for where you're going. In the breed ring that means fine harness which traditionally does not include breeching. You can wear a jogging suit to the ball but don't expect the judges ("fashion critics") to take you seriously.


Yeah, but I'm not expected to _perform_ with my high heels and nylons, just walk around a little bit!



(Ok, SOME people are expected to perform in high heels, but it either includes a runway or a pole!



Ever seen one of those fancy models biff it with those heels? It's all about style and not about practicality. And lets not talk about the pole women...



)


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## Minxiesmom (Mar 15, 2010)

How do you gals feel about thimbles? The kids in High School Equestrian around here have been using them. Doesn't detract from the look at all and helps in the backup.


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## Annabellarose (Mar 15, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Your thoughts are sound-shaft stops are not sufficient with open tugs and you do in fact need some sort of breeching to be safe.


I am not yet comfortable with the idea of open loop tugs without wrap straps. My ("big" horse) mare's harness had wrap straps and I was comfortable with it.



hobbyhorse23 said:


> Even with a false breeching you may want to add wrap straps to your harness just for use in the breed ring. I don't know from any personal experience that the false breeching might not slip back up the shaft under pressure, leaving you with the cart slipping forward through the tugs and hitting your horse's heels. If you can secure the false breeching to the shaft in a firm way such as with a tack or by threading it through a footman's loop or something that would be fine but I wouldn't trust it for something so important otherwise.


I am glad that I am not alone in this thought; I was actually planning to install a pair of footman's loops onto the shafts of my show cart just to attach the false breeching to as I had already anticipated "slippage".



hobbyhorse23 said:


> It's easy to switch out open tugs for wrap straps or French tugs, all you need to do is buy a new girth and tug loops.


I hadn't thought of buying a new girth. After inspecting the girth and the overgirth of my harness and looking around online I don't think that will work for me/my harness as the open loop tugs buckle onto a long strap that is permanently attached to a D-ring sewn to the saddle that buckles directly into the overgirth. I would have to (permanently) cut that strap off of the saddle and then I would have to look for new tug loops as well as a way to install the new tug loops. Any suggestions from this point?



RhineStone said:


> Personally, if you believe in breeching, I would show in breeching. You seem to have an understanding of why it is there, and would rather use it. Just because it is customary (for no good reason other than there is too much leather on the horse, which IMO is NOT a _good_ reason) to not use breeching in the show ring, doesn't mean it is _against_ the rules to show with it. It's just that the exhibitors tend to not be used to seeing it.





hobbyhorse23 said:


> I don't like high heels either, but I wear them if I'm going out on the town. It's part of the appropriate dress code just like a tiny, useless evening bag and annoyingly flimsy pantyhose. You dress appropriately for where you're going. In the breed ring that means fine harness which traditionally does not include breeching. You can wear a jogging suit to the ball but don't expect the judges ("fashion critics") to take you seriously.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I couldn't have said it better myself. These thoughts pretty much sum up the way I feel. Breeching at home and on the road and on the trail, but since it already isn't a "show harness" going sans breeching will improve "the look".



RhineStone said:


> I'm not sure you would have to get an entirely new girth to use wrap straps, as all you need is a loop on the bottom of the girth to keep the wrap straps from moving back away from the girth. The wrap strap on my mom's harness is just one strip of leather with two buckles and keepers, and is run through the ring on the girth.





hobbyhorse23 said:


> On most of the mini harnesses I've seen the overgirth is sewn under a leather loop on the girth and there's no way to get it out short of cutting the stitches as the buckles won't fit through it. It's much simpler to simply buy a new girth with wrap straps and switch them out depending on what kind of driving you're doing.


The girth and the overgirth on my harness are exactly as you describe, so that still leaves me with a long strap that is permanently attached to a D-ring sewn to the saddle that buckles directly into the overgirthstrap that I would have to cut off/destroy.



susanne said:


> [snip]hump-me-pumps[/snip]


HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2010)

Well, thimbles would certainly work to prevent the shafts from slipping through the tug loops but they still put all the pressure of backing on the horse's withers and I'm not fond of the look. Talk about cluttered!

Leia


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## Annabellarose (Mar 15, 2010)

Minxiesmom said:


> How do you gals feel about thimbles? The kids in High School Equestrian around here have been using them. Doesn't detract from the look at all and helps in the backup.


Actually, my knee-jerk reaction to the open loop tugs of my harness and my idea to use my harness at shows without breeching was to order a pair of thimbles. After much thought...thinking that the thimbles ask my horse to stop the weight of me and the cart with it's girth area versus a false breeching asks my horse to stop the weight of me and the cart with it's rear, which, in my opinion, is safer/more humane/more efficient...I thought to ask about everyone's thoughts on false breeching.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 15, 2010)

Angela, aren't your tug loops adjustable for height? All you do is literally unbuckle them from the long strap off the D-ring and buckle another set on that doesn't have the overgirth strap. You can buy new tug loops as well as the girth from Ozark Mtn or Star Lake; they both advertise them under harness parts and accessories.

Leia


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## Annabellarose (Mar 15, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Angela, aren't your tug loops adjustable for height? All you do is literally unbuckle them from the long strap off the D-ring and buckle another set on that doesn't have the overgirth strap. You can buy new tug loops as well as the girth from Ozark Mtn or Star Lake; they both advertise them under harness parts and accessories.
> Leia


The open tug loops are adjustable for height, but the open tug loops buckle onto the strap that is permanently sewn to the D-ring on the saddle. The other end of that strap buckles into the overgirth. I will post a picture that I JUST took:


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 16, 2010)

Hmm, interesting! That is definitely not a normal arrangement. What you could do if you prefer wrap straps is have someone cut the top part of the strap to a more normal tug length, keep the tug loops as they are since they don't have a strap off the bottom as most open tugs do, and change out the girth. The saddle itself seems to have a nice wide gullet and pretty decent padding so the only thing we need to do is add the actual wrap straps since the tug loops are fine. Yes, cutting the long strap is permanent but you could still put it back to an open tug arrangement just by buying two tug loops with the overgirth strap attached to the bottom as normal and using the original girth.

Leia


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 16, 2010)

You know, in the breed ring, you are driving around for a few minutes on the flat - no hills up or down. You are asking your horse to back up 3 to 5 steps. You do this maybe once or twice a month at a show, tops 4 times a month if you show every weekend - it isn't going to do an injury to your horse. Granted with open loop tugs which are not meant to be used without breeching you need to come up with a solution such as false breeching which is going to be a lot less expensive and less hassle than a separate set of tugs and overgirth but otherwise I wouldn't get any too crazy over not using breeching. The most important thing is to teach your horse to back properly. If he is using himself fully to push the cart back it isn't a big deal but if all you do is haul back on the reins making it as hard as possible for him to back you are likely to have him refuse anyway. I don't really think it is because people don't know what breeching does, a lot of the people you see in the breed ring without breeching use it at home or when training but don't use it in the ring when they put their show harness on. I use breeching quite often if I am doing obstacle class and to my knowledge have never been miss-placed because of it but I have been miss-placed for using it in a flat class, actually eliminated because of it (I did argue as it is not a rule but the judges word is final), so I remove mine. I do practice backing without it at home before expecting a horse not to use it in the ring but at most times I use breeching everywhere but the breed showring and I have not ever had a horse get sore or upset because it isn't there for those few minutes in the ring. I have had a thimble break years ago and haven't used them since.


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## Annabellarose (Mar 16, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Hmm, interesting! That is definitely not a normal arrangement.


Ah ha! This is good to know! I was not able to find a harness exactly like mine in any of the online tack/harness shops that I was perusing.



hobbyhorse23 said:


> What you could do if you prefer wrap straps is have someone cut the top part of the strap to a more normal tug length, keep the tug loops as they are since they don't have a strap off the bottom as most open tugs do, and change out the girth.


I will have to consider this option. I know that I do not have access to a (quality) saddle/harness maker anywhere near me. At this point, I am leaning more toward starting out with a false breeching attached to footman's loops installed on the cart specifically for that purpose. I already have two pairs of footman's loops in my stash and I won't have to damage/change my harness. It would probably be a lot cheaper (buying a false breeching and using footman's loops that I already have versus having to have my harness altered by a professional as well as having to buy a new overgirth with wrap straps) and A LOT less hassle.



hobbyhorse23 said:


> The saddle itself seems to have a nice wide gullet and pretty decent padding


I thought so. I thought that this harness was an excellent find, especially considering what I spent on it, but the design/configuration really threw me.



MiLo Minis said:


> You know, in the breed ring, you are driving around for a few minutes on the flat - no hills up or down. You are asking your horse to back up 3 to 5 steps. You do this maybe once or twice a month at a show, tops 4 times a month if you show every weekend - it isn't going to do an injury to your horse.


For me it would probably no more than 3-5 times a year for the first year or two. I will upgrade (quality of harness) before I get serious enough to want to show more than that. I was just wondering if I could make this harness work for a season or two of "practice" in the ring.



MiLo Minis said:


> I do practice backing without it at home before expecting a horse not to use it in the ring


Yes, I absolutely would practice without breeching at home before considering to go without it at a show.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 17, 2010)

I think your solution sounds fine, but just be aware you do not need a "professional saddle or harness maker" for what I was talking about. I looked up "leather work" in the local phone book, picked an old guy who works out of his house 30 minutes from me making western tack and designer dog collars, and asked him to hack off the straps where I marked and dye the ends black. It took maybe five minutes.





I'm sorry if I seemed to be overcomplicating things. The steps I was recommending only involved cutting off a strap, clicking "buy it now" off an internet vendor and then buckling the new girth onto the harness which didn't seem bad at all. The only part you'd have to be careful on is letting the vendor know the width of your current straps so they can be sure to match it.

I often worry too much about things I haven't been able to try out so while I think the false breeching is a fine idea and want to try it, I would not be comfortable counting on it to keep me safe with open tugs until I've gotten to play with it and make sure I have it placed right to act just like real breeching. It's too important to me that the cart not have any possibility of running up on the horse! I'd also want to be sure that the horse wasn't startled by the sudden contact of a false breeching and wouldn't kick or buck.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Mar 17, 2010)

I have seen harnesses like that. I still say leave the harness the way it is and just use the breeching. The whole thing seems like a lot of hassle just to satisfy a few judges that don't know the rules.....


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## Annabellarose (Mar 21, 2010)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I think your solution sounds fine, but just be aware you do not need a "professional saddle or harness maker" for what I was talking about. I looked up "leather work" in the local phone book, picked an old guy who works out of his house 30 minutes from me making western tack and designer dog collars, and asked him to hack off the straps where I marked and dye the ends black. It took maybe five minutes.


What you aren't thinking of is there isn't anyone (professional or amateur) in or near my area that can do this for me.



Also, I was politely trying to say that I am not comfortable committing to permanently maiming my harness at this time and cutting off anything that is permanently attached to the saddle of the harness would fit my definition of maiming my harness. If it was already worn or torn, maybe.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 21, 2010)

That's fine.


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