# shaft stops



## Performancemini (Mar 28, 2011)

Our easy entry carts all have the little metal loops under the shafts we run the (hold back, tie down??? never get the term straight; just know how to use it) through and around. Our Jerald has the metal shaft stops we wrap it around. We have a Meadowbrook now that doesn't have anything. My concern is the shaft could slip forward or even back some; possibly causing problems. What are all your opinions on this; should we put shaft stops on? I think 'yes'; but want to see what some others say. (I have two and half weeks til we need this cart; but would like to put the horse to it sooner of course.). Tell all!


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## RhineStone (Mar 28, 2011)

A Meadowbrook is a fairly heavy vehicle requiring breeching, so you should have the Footman's loops on the shafts for the breeching straps. The shaft stops would provide extra, but the breeching should come first. I would NOT drive that vehicle with only wrap straps.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 28, 2011)

The *wrap straps* go around a *shaft stop*, making sure that the shafts cannot slip forward through the tugs. The *holdbacks* go from the breeching to the *footman's loops* and "hold back" the cart. If you have and will be using breeching all the time, you don't necessarily need shaft stops. Badly placed ones can be more trouble than they're worth!

If there is any potential at all that you'll ever be driving this wooden cart without breeching though, yes, I'd say you need shaft stops. I'm with Myrna however and would not drive anything heavier that a light show cart even on flat ground without breeching. Easy entries are some of the worst to drive without breeching IMO as they tend to slop back and forth so easily! At least a low show cart tends to stop nicely instead of rolling up on the horse on pavement or other packed surfaces.

Leia


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## Performancemini (Mar 29, 2011)

OK. So; we want to very occasionally use the Meadowbrook in a country pleasure driving class where breeching is not used at the AMHR shows for these classes.Sometimes husband and I each show a horse in the same class and we only have the one Jerald. We really aren't novices; though it may sound some like it from this (p.s. thanks for clarifying the wrap strap/hold back for me).. He has put shaft stops on before and I know we have to get them placed properly.


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## Sandee (Mar 29, 2011)

Performancemini said:


> OK. So; we want to very occasionally use the Meadowbrook in a country pleasure driving class where breeching is not used at the AMHR shows for these classes.Sometimes husband and I each show a horse in the same class and we only have the one Jerald. We really aren't novices; though it may sound some like it from this (p.s. thanks for clarifying the wrap strap/hold back for me).. He has put shaft stops on before and I know we have to get them placed properly.


I completely understand that you want to use the Meadowbrook instead of an easy entry cart but be aware that unless your horse is really "buff" (lots of muscle and used to using it), the Meadowbrook may be hard for him to move backward in the arena at the class finish. As long as you realize this and are prepared for it then you're ok. Otherwise there is no reason one of you couldn't use the easy entry.

I don't know if a Meadowbrook has the leather or faux leather covered shafts ends. My Graber and Jerald do and that is where my "wrap" straps end up and this covering helps to keep the straps from slipping. Also my straps are long enough to "wrap" tightly more than once around the shaft. They don't move. The harness with the "sort of" French tugs is a whole 'nother story.


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## RhineStone (Mar 29, 2011)

Performancemini said:


> OK. So; we want to very occasionally use the Meadowbrook in a country pleasure driving class *where breeching is not used at the AMHR shows for these classes*.


As far as I understand, that is not a rule but a fad. I would buck it with a Meadowbrook for the sake of your horse.....use the breeching.





Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 29, 2011)

Performancemini said:


> OK. So; we want to very occasionally use the Meadowbrook in a country pleasure driving class where breeching is not used at the AMHR shows for these classes. Sometimes husband and I each show a horse in the same class and we only have the one Jerald.


I getcha. Definitely install the shaft stops then, no question.

Leia


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## keely2682 (Mar 30, 2011)

> So; we want to very occasionally use the Meadowbrook in a country pleasure driving class where breeching is not used at the AMHR shows for these classes


if you are already in "nonshow attire" use breeching!

your horse will be so much happier with breeching if pulling such a cart.

if i use a cart other than my Houghton in classes at AMHR shows (or if its a deep arena), i always use breeching!

if i use an easy entry or cde cart, i use my sport harness with breeching and a freedom collar.

i haven't been penalized for it: my mare has won classes over horses in Lutkes and Jeralds tacked like this.

i had an amhr judge tell me i didn't need breeching - it wasn't "neccessary or appropriate" for the show ring

(even though I was driving with open tugs and a wooden cart in an arena with horrible deep footing



).

i politely smiled and thanked her for her opinion

i own several Lutkes and a Houghton but don't always use them and my horses place the same with or without

i would worry about your horse's happiness and comfort more than the judge's opinion

breeching has never mattered in my placings at breed shows


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## T'sMinis (Mar 30, 2011)

Hi...Someone mentioned the leather-like covers at end of the shafts. So, on my recently purchased, used Jerald I do have the leather-like covers on the end of my shafts, not the shaft stops. Do I need to put the shaft stops on or am okay with these "covers" for slipping? If I need the stops as well, do I just put them over the leather-like covers? And is there a certain measurement used to place these?

Thanks for the info.

Gina


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## RhineStone (Mar 30, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> i had an amhr judge tell me i didn't need breeching - it wasn't "neccessary or appropriate" for the show ring
> 
> (even though I was driving with open tugs and a wooden cart in an arena with horrible deep footing
> 
> ...






:RollEyes



Some judges....Good for you for your polite answer. I wouldn't have been able keep my mouth shut and not pass it up as a teachable moment!



T said:


> Do I need to put the shaft stops on or am okay with these "covers" for slipping? If I need the stops as well, do I just put them over the leather-like covers? And is there a certain measurement used to place these?


If your wrap straps slip, then by all means get some shaft stops. The shaft stops need to go where your tugs are on the shafts. The problem is that "measurement" might be different for each horse put to that cart.

BTW, those "covers" are called shaft trim or shaft horns.





What happened to using thimbles for the breed ring?



We had those for our breed harness and then didn't have any problems with the wrap straps slipping. With using thimbles, we also didn't need to wrap the wrap straps that tight, so that the motion of the cart was transferred to the horse. The wrap straps were purely to keep the cart from flipping up over backward, not for braking.

Myrna


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## keely2682 (Mar 30, 2011)

previous thread on breeching in breed ring

click above link to view

i remembered a previous thread on the "breeching in the breed ring" topic

here is another ignorant judge commenting on my attire

note that i won the class under 3 of 4 judges in spite of my breeching


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## RhineStone (Mar 30, 2011)

Boy, am I glad I wasn't around when that topic was posted! I would have had a hayday with the judge who said that breeching isn't helpful in backing a vehicle.



Are you kidding me? Truly, please understand what EACH part of the harness does before you put it on....or judge it....





Myrna


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## Performancemini (Mar 30, 2011)

Referring to the above past post-yeah, should have set some of the big Draft horse trainers loose on that judge to educate him/her on breechings function!

And to my original thread-I think we will have to invest in a few nice breeching for use with this cart. It wouldn't be the first time we've shown a little "different" either. We started out at ASPC and AMHR shows with easy entrys; and as stated; we placed very well at times. A couple of the horses will have to be introduced to breeching, as they have never worn it (WE didn't train these couple; our first were introduced to breeching as my husband also enjoys the Draft team classes). As to thimbles; yeah-where'd they go? We started out with our Shetlands with them. Our first Shetland we used to trail drive. He had breeching and thimbles (both or interchangable, I can't remember). His show harness had thimbles. Fads is good term alright. Safety gets shoved kind of underneath at times.


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## Sandee (Mar 30, 2011)

Performancemini said:


> ............ He had breeching and thimbles (both or interchangable, I can't remember). His show harness had thimbles. Fads is good term alright. Safety gets shoved kind of underneath at times.


I've never seen thimbles used and can't remember just how they are attached to the harness. (know where they go on the shafts) I thought they ended up attached to the saddle too. In which case I don't see how thimbles would be any better for the horse than the straps for brakes.


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## RhineStone (Mar 30, 2011)

Sandee said:


> I don't see how thimbles would be any better for the horse than the straps for brakes.


They aren't any better _mechanically_. They work the same way, using the saddle to stop the vehicle. But they don't slip around like posters are saying that wrap straps do (my sister did have one slip off the shaft during an obstacle class before we knew better...



). And by using thimbles then the wrap straps don't need to be so tight as to transfer the motion of the vehicle to the horse. Tight wrap straps do that some. Some thimbles attach to the ring of the tug bearing strap, but we had a cheap harness that didn't have that ring, so it was attached to the rein terret (probably not a great idea, either, considering the construction of a rein terret).

Myrna


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## Margo_C-T (Apr 1, 2011)

In my earlier days of breed showing, I used a Lutke with Tilbury tugs, which for those who aren't familiar with them, loop around the shaft and 'tighten' around it, literally 'gripping' the shaft(and are very similar to French tugs.)It was simpler, less bulky, stayed more reliably 'snug' than wrap straps, but still, needed to be very snug onto the shaft....meaning that there was still the same undesirable need to 'tighten them down'...which can mean unpleasant upward pressure on the girth. I did try thimbles on occasion, but found a bit of a 'slingshot' effect when stopping that I didn't care for, despite careful adjustment.

I never used tug stops; they just didn't seem necessary with the Tilbury tugs. I did find I needed to wrap my shafts over the trim with black electrical tape; mine were of a soft matte leather-not patent(this was before 'everything' just HAD to be patent....), and the grip of the Tilbury tugs tore and abraded the soft leather.

Thankfully, my first mini harness was a Smuckers Lite, which came with breeching, so I trained each and every horse as I went to breeching from the start. Once I learned 'beyond' the limited world of the breed ring, I sold the Lutke, using instead a Smuckers Pleasure harness, with breeching, for ALL breed classes except Roadster(I had a TINY Jerald custom 'obstacle' cart, which had removeable stirrups and a removeable basket, so was a great little Roadster cart...VERY lightweight...and in Roadster, there is NO backing.) This was some years ago, when virtually NO ONE had come into rail classes in the mini breed ring...either registry...using breeching. I did just fine.

As for the judges' comments...IMO, what's the saddest is that miniature breed show competitors are actually paying to be 'judged' by some who are so totally IGNORANT of the proper tenets of driving! The only outright comment I ever received waa a POSITIVE comment on my 'turnout'(at the time, I had a very nice, 'genuine' Meadowbrook--which I eventually sold because I felt it was just too heavy for my A horses) from (still)the only trainer-now-carded-judge in miniatures that I KNOW I can respect(Susanne knows who that is!)Afraid I'd have had to 'respond' to the ignorant comments others have related, though....

Margo


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## Helicopter (Apr 2, 2011)

Shoot, as far as I'm concerned you all seem to be speaking in a foreign language.





I feel so ignorant.


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## iowa (Apr 3, 2011)

Just thought I'd add my pet peeve about driving and judges. It really irks me when the horse is pulling the cart with the wrap shafts because the tugs are not properly placed. They are hanging loose!. I've seen it in the ring and wonder why they place at all.


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## RhineStone (Apr 4, 2011)

iowa said:


> It really irks me when the horse is pulling the cart with the wrap shafts because the *tugs* are not properly placed. They are hanging loose!.


Are you referring to _traces_? Yes, I totally agree with you. The breed show drivers justify that by saying that it frees up the front end because then the horse isn't pulling with his chest. Fortunately, there are ways to humanly accomplish both goals, to harness correctly and free the front end. Using a contour collar will free the shoulder and still allow the horse to pull the cart with their large chest instead of with their boney ribs. Some people think they look bulky for the Fine Harness style classes, but IMO the comfort of the horse trumps "looks" because if the horse is comfortable, it will directly affect his performance.

The other thing that will free their front end is to get the horse to place more of his weight on his haunches instead of his front end. A horse is natually heavy on the front end, mostly because of the weight of their head and neck. In addition, when a horse first starts to drive, they will lean into and pull the cart with their chest instead of push the cart with their haunches. A good trainer works to teach the horse to carry himself on his hind legs (this is virtually universal no matter what the discipline: Saddle Seat, Hunt Seat, Western Pleasure, Reining, Jumping, etc.) This is done through time, good training and good conformation. If the horse "tracks up", it is able to place more of his weight back and free up the front end to be brilliant. Unfortunately, a tight check on structurally lower conformed horses will create a "hollowness" that will virtually eliminate the ability of the horse to track up (place the hind foot in the print of the front). Instead, holding the head up in an "unnatural" position for that horse will lower the back, and then the hind legs "trail" the horse instead of carry his weight underneath himself. The hind foot print is WAY behind the front. Most upper level carriage horses are age 10 or older, much older than a lot of top breed show horses.

So, you _can_ get a horse free in the front end and still be humane, but it is going to take a different thought process for the show ring... and work, and time.

Myrna


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 4, 2011)

Very well said, Myrna, sensible and easy to understand!

I loathe it when I see horses pulling from the saddle, and I would love to see more contour collars on show harness- I think if they are asked for it enough times they will start thinking about how to do it?


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## iowa (Apr 4, 2011)

I always thought traces and tugs were the same thing.




Maybe tugs are for draft horse harnesses. Maybe someone can explain the technical difference! Thanks.


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## Sandee (Apr 5, 2011)

iowa said:


> I always thought traces and tugs were the same thing.
> 
> 
> 
> Maybe tugs are for draft horse harnesses. Maybe someone can explain the technical difference! Thanks.


Google for pictures. Tugs are the loops, hung from, the saddle that carry the shafts. The traces are the long leather pieces running from the breast strap to the single tree.


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## RhineStone (Apr 5, 2011)

I'm pretty sure some draft people and Amish call the traces "tugs". So it is a typical "mistake". And actually, some harness and carriage parts have more than one "correct" name anyway. But carriage drivers and most show people refer to traces.

Myrna


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## iowa (Apr 5, 2011)

That's right Myma. Hate to keep



but I found some diagrams and termonolgy that calls tugs and traces the same thing. But then again, I also found a diagram and definition of tugs off of the saddle to the shaft, so guess, it depends on where you are from. I realize carriage people and show people call them traces most of the time.

I am posting some of the web sites from reputable companies that call them the same thing. Hope this doesn't go against policy. I'm not trying to sell anything!

http://www.woodrivercarriage.com/harness.htm#Measuring%20a%20Horse%20for%20Harness

Wood River Carriage Works

Mini Leather Driving Harness

Mini Single Driving Harness w/ 1"wide tugs, 1 3/4 " breast collar, 5/8" lines. Fits up to a 32" pony.

Miniature Team Harness w/ 5/8" lines, 1"wide tugs double thickness with heel chains, black hames. Fits 30 to 34" pony

http://www.mydrafthorse.com/cfwebstore/index.cfm?fuseaction=product.display&product_id=64

http://www.chimacumtack.com/Chimacumglossary.html

In Glossary and in their diagram

Trace or Tug	Traces are the part of the harness which attaches the horse to the vehicle.


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 5, 2011)

Helicopter said:


> Shoot, as far as I'm concerned you all seem to be speaking in a foreign language.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hang in there! It IS another language but one worth learning! I'm intimidated, also, but determined to expand my knowledge. There is always more to learn so our horses will benefit from our expanded vocabulary.


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