# Geld 'em!



## mininik (Sep 14, 2007)

http://www.nchorsenews.com/Geld%20em.htm

I think it would be wonderful if just ONE Miniature was gelded thanks to someone reading this article.


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## Jill (Sep 14, 2007)

Good article! It's a shame more mini people do not realize the value of a nice gelding, and it's a shame there are so many miniature breeding stallions who if gelded would only be pet quality geldings (yet are siring pet quality fillies and colts who will probably be bred as well...). I love geldings and will continue to geld even the nicest of colts when I want that horse to be a gelding (for myself or for others).


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## SweetOpal (Sep 14, 2007)

my vet will be here in 30 min and we are gelding 3 boys today, a weanling, yearling, and 2 year old. It would be great if others would geld but unfortunately this is one of the only breeds I know that doesn't beleive in gelding. We seem to have blinders that tell us they are all perfect and wonderful stallions.

I especially like reason # 2 for the debunking reasons! Priceless really, thanks Nicole for posting that.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 14, 2007)

Good reading material. What I might add is if there wasn't the overproduction of horses there wouldn't be the need to fix so many and there would also be fewer stallions. Unfortunately where minis are a "breeding" breed, it appears more stallions are in demand then geldings. If there was less promoting of breeding and selling and more promotion of fewer breedings there would be far fewer problems. We just aren't going to see this happen because too many use their right to breed and registeries don't want to see fewer foals being produced. Just my thoughts. Mary


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## backwoodsnanny (Sep 14, 2007)

We have gelded in the past and will again in the future but $350 for one gelding is alot when a colt only sells for twice that much at best. I am tempted to load up a couple of boys and go where gelding is reasonable. I think $350 discourages gelding in this state.


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## mininik (Sep 14, 2007)

Simply put, if the price of gelding is deterring people from breeding, please STOP BREEDING. Common sense says that when breeding you will either end up with a filly or colt. More likely than not, many of your colts (and fillies, too) will not be breeding material and should be gelded before being sold (or sold on a solid gelding contract). It goes without saying that not all fillies should go on to produce, either, but at least with colts we have the ability to permanently fix them before they contribute to the gene pool. If the market is such that you can only get about twice the price of gelding for an intact, gelding quality colt in your area, please STOP BREEDING if you are unwilling to make the investment to help protect your breed's future.


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## Katiean (Sep 14, 2007)

Backwoosdnanny, you have high gelding prices where you are too. It costs $350 in Nevada too. It discurraged me too. That is $350 for a simple geld and more if there is a problem. I could trailer to California but that just defeats the trip. As it would cost about $75 just for the trip plus time. I don't think that will work. My colt now is a nice little guy. His two mommies keep him in line. I don't think I am gonna geld.


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## Calekio (Sep 14, 2007)

Nice artical... maybe i should give it my vets! lol Maybe it because we are in the UK.. but my vets won't gold anything under a year of mine... they just say its too tricky since they are so small! (maybe i should take them to a small animal vet who deals with dogs! lol)

I've often been asked by people who are wanting a pet for there children, what do they they get.. a lot say they've seen a nice colt.. but i'll always try to steer them to a gelding.

Also seen over here people who don't thnk the colt is good enough as a stallion so sell it unreg'd... my view is.. if you don't want to sell a future stallion.. sell it gelded! I also think there is much more of a buyers market for geldings than there for colts.


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## nightflight (Sep 14, 2007)

_Anyone tired of me posting this yet? This is the New Mexico miniature horse club's gelding program. We've reached the program cap again, people have run us out of money twice! A fun show fundraiser, silent auction, club swapmeet sale, or youth fundraisers are all ways to fund this project. It's great incentive to join and work with local clubs too. We also have a local vet who helped us with the program and offers discounts to club members. _

LEMHC Gelding Promotion Program

Purpose:

· To support members of the LEMHC

· To encourage the gelding of horses for improved quality of life.

· To encourage breeders to geld colts before selling them.

· To encourage ownership of geldings.

· To provide more geldings for the youth market.

· To support AMHA gelding incentives

· To decrease the numbers of miniatures going through public auctions.

Overview:

The LEMHC will reimburse qualifying members up to $150 for the gelding of AMHA horses. Up to $100 will be reimbursed for the first, and up to $50 will be reimbursed for the second surgery.

Rules:

1) Horses in program must by owned by LEMHC members in good standing

2) Horses in program must be AMHA Registered miniature horses.

3) A copy of the vet bill showing horses full registered name and owners name must be submitted to the LEMHC. Bill must be on veterinarian’s letterhead and have veterinarian’s signature. A copy of the horse’s registration papers must also be submitted.

4) The program will begin reimbursing vet bills dated on August 28th 2004 and after.

5) To begin with reimbursement will be limited to two horses per family, per year (Program year begins and ends on August 28th).

6) When a total of $1000 has been spent on the program, the program will be suspended and reviewed by committee. The committee will then report to the board or general membership who will decide whether or not the program should be renewed.

Recommendations:

That a committee be set up to track how useful this program is to LEMHC members. Eventually I would like to see no limits for the numbers of horses enrolled in this program, but if everyone takes part it could be necessary to find alternative funding to make this happen.

Notes:

In the past there has been a lot of talk about creating a fund for LEMHC members who are involved in mini horse rescue. This program does not take the place of that, but could help to reduce the problem. If LEMHC breeders encourage selling more geldings than colts, first time mini owners are less likely to end up with a pet stallion that they want to breed. By reducing the numbers of breeding animals that we put into the market we can reduce the number of pet quality animals that are produced. This will give the horses that are produced a better chance of finding the type of home they deserve.


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## mininik (Sep 14, 2007)

Katiean, I'm sure you know that keeping your colt intact sets him up to live a life of separation, anxiety and frustration. It won't be long before he cannot live with his two "mommies" if they are mares capable of reproducing. If he does breed or you breed your mare(s) again to another stallion, what will you do if you end up with more colts? If you're planning to sell these colts, are they really the quality that should be reproducing for someone else, producing more colts that may not be gelded due to the costs involved?

What a wonderful program, Colleen! I wonder if all of the local AMHA and AMHR clubs are aware of it or have something similar? If not, I'll bet they may be interested in starting something if they knew of this as an example to follow. Please don't stop posting about it, the more people who are aware of the benefits of gelding, the better!


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## capall beag (Sep 14, 2007)

Good article but I do have a Q.

Why do so many say "If he is a good stallion he will make an even better gelding" Or similar, or "he is not good enough to be competitive as a stallion but would be a very competitive gelding" or something similar.

Is the standard lower in the ring for geldings?

How would a horse be more competitive simply because it was gelded?

I am not questioning the reasoning behind the benefits of gelding, I know them. I am just curious why a horse would become 'more' competitive in the showring because he was gelded.

As said, when gelding costs are so high, $450 here in southern Maine, it is a huge added cost to raising a foal and the selling price is lower.

Unfortunately for these 2 reasons there are a huge # of colts left intact around here.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Sep 14, 2007)

I think people are not seeing it is a huge catch 22

If you are selling colts in tact then that person will breed him have there own foals and then be selling them in your market therefore cutting down your already depressed market (you in general not aimed at anyone )

If you truly have an amazing stallion meaning he outproduces himself a large portion of the time.. then it gets to the point of why keep him a stallion why not geld him and keep a son as a stallion if they truly are better then the sire. If they are not.. why keep going with that stallion and those crosses?

I think the sad part is this really applies to ALL OF US each and every one and yet so many read stuff like this and are sure it applies to everyone else but surely not there own herd.


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## chandab (Sep 14, 2007)

capall beag said:


> As said, when gelding costs are so high, $450 here in southern Maine,


:new_shocked:

OMG, no wonder alot of owners don't geld. It's really a pretty simple proceedure (basic uncomplicated gelding), I do not understand why vets charge so much. I was griping about the $100 and $125 I paid to geld two AQHA colts a couple years ago. I do know that the new vet charges around $175 to geld a mini; a friend has had two done in the last two years.


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## kathy'sminis (Sep 14, 2007)

: I have gelding mini horses that I love to bring to fairs & daycares to teach people & kids about mini horses, I do have mares & couple of stallions which one of the stallions is getting gelded this fall,they have a better life as a gelding,not all horses are meant to be stallions.I had 7 colts & young studs gelded in April this year in one day,I had one yearling colt that I was gelding the vet really didn't want to geld  he was a AMHA Reg. blk/wht medicine hat paint that was a curly miniature, he has curly sheep wool like fur during winter,yes he is rare I told the vet but he will have a happier life as a gelding,which he can stay out with the other mares & geldings :aktion033: . I love having geldings they are great for kids & take places, so I don't have to worry about it being in a heat cycle being cranky or weird,It cost me $200 to have mini colt or stallion gelded here & it is worth every penny. :bgrin

Kathy K.& G. Hiddenfarm, Lebanon,ME


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## wiccanz (Sep 14, 2007)

> If you truly have an amazing stallion meaning he outproduces himself a large portion of the time.. then it gets to the point of why keep him a stallion why not geld him and keep a son as a stallion if they truly are better then the sire.


This is what we did with our stallion. Basically, the first foal he produced (a colt) was much better than himself, so we rebred our 3 mares, then gelded him.

We now have 3 colts (1 will most likely end up gelded) and 2 fillies from him, all are better than he. We feel he did his job for us, so gelded him. We have never regretted our decision.


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## nootka (Sep 14, 2007)

:aktion033:

Awesome article!

I find it interesting indeed that the farms that I admire (personally) and tend to have the highest quality horses are the ones that are JUST FINE with gelding colts, even ones that would probably be quite nice as stallions (i.e., good, correct parentage and nice horses to begin with, even themselves often national champs).

It seems to be the ones that sell the horses for the really low prices or medium low prices that really have the problem with it, also the ones that tend to "romanticize" and anthropomorphize more than is necessary.

Don't get me wrong, I'm all for giving the horses their emotions, their feelings, etc., but when they are treated like sentimental objects and that is used as an excuse for breeding more poorly conformed/badly proportioned animals, it's wrong.

The world does not need more mediocre. ALL of us should be striving for higher quality.

I wish it were easier to spay mares, and I do hope that eventuality is near.

I find another aspect interesting, that people don't realize that times change and we are "moving on" so they wish to take that stallion who was so "cool" 20 years ago, and either get him reproducing again or reproduce him. He may have been National champion then, but he couldn't cut the mustard, now...and his babies are likely not to be what they were (with some rare exceptions).

We DO tend to experiment a little bit when we breed even the best to the best. What frustrates me is to see the "ok" bred to the "ok" and then we have generations of "so so" to look forward to. At least take the "ok" and find an oustanding/superior stallion....?

Now that I see the "bigger" thing on the article, though, makes me a little nervous about gelding some of my colts so young, I guess they may go over, but I'd rather do that than breed fugly horses and/or have them breeding when they shouldn't be.

Thanks, mininik, for this....guessing that I could show it around, myself, but the ones that really need to get the msg won't.

BTW, my vet charges $95 for a gelding procedure that is with the farm call. He raised it from $65 when I had it done two years ago.

My policy is that EVERY colt here will be gelded as soon as he's ready (descended) and before he leaves here to his new home UNLESS he is that nice, and he better be darned nice. It's been that way for years, now. It ONLY MAKES SENSE if you truly have an outstanding stallion, to control his male offspring that way, and want to protect your stallion's worth as well as his future generations. YOu have no control over what mare is bred by your stallion's sons and so on and so on....

Liz M.


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## Vertical Limit (Sep 14, 2007)

mininik said:


> Simply put, if the price of gelding is deterring people from breeding, please STOP BREEDING.
> 
> STOP BREEDING if you are unwilling to make the investment to help protect your breed's future.


AMEN!

Good article! Had to laugh as I have heard every one of these excuses for not gelding. I don't care what it costs to geld. Can't afford it.....don't breed them or cut down on the number you do breed. Sound harsh? Maybe, but every single one of you that have made some of the excuses in that article are adding to the huge over population of miniature horses. And again, if you are not part of the solution you are part of the problem.


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## mininik (Sep 14, 2007)

capall beag said:


> Is the standard lower in the ring for geldings?
> 
> How would a horse be more competitive simply because it was gelded?



Rarely do you see top stallion prospects or stallions proven to be exceptional who are gelded, especially in Miniatures. Many Miniature breeders will even hold off on gelding an exceptional or mediocre stallion who hasn't out produced himself "yet" because they are waiting on some magical cross. More often than not, you'll find that a great many more Miniature breeders have to find some obvious faults in their horse to feel comfortable with gelding and then there are those who just can't (more like won't) see that their stallion SHOULD be gelded. What many fail to realize is that gelding a stallion can make it great in another way and that is in the quality of life a gelding can enjoy over a stallion as well as the contribution the owner is making to the betterment of the breed.


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## Jill (Sep 14, 2007)

I'm not holding my horses out for critique here on the forum, but I do feel one of my nicest horses period is one I chose to geld. His breeding is very top notch. If "they" grew back, I'd have the vet out to do it again :bgrin I don't want to show a gelding quality gelding. I want to show stallion quality geldings.


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## Marty (Sep 14, 2007)

Here we go again with this topic

Here's some of what I think for what it's worth.

LB Forum members has got this down pretty good already. After all, this topic of gelding has been done to death for years. But what about the breeders that do not read this forum or any other forum or even bother to realize about the market in horses be it minis or big horses? There are tons and millions of breedings taking place left and right and of course we all have those mills constantly over producing equines. Those are some of the people that need to be reached and convinced to stop the over production too. But how's that going to happen?


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 14, 2007)

I am trying to make sense out of some of the things that are being said. It seems some are saying it is okay to breed good horses as long as the colts are gelded. Okay, that is what should be done by those who feel that way. We are also being told that if you can't afford to geld a colt then don't breed...I am all for that also. What troubles me is saying it is okay to breed if the horses are good but it is also okay to sell the mares and let them go on breeding even though they are producing more than what the market can handle

realy well. Why the double standard of making sure you can afford to geld a colt before breeding but not have mares spayed because it costs too much? I know of people who have had their mares spayed [hope that is proper terminalogy] and it hasn't cost anymore than what some are saying it costs to geld. It does take two to tango and there wouldn't be the unwantwed stallions if mares weren't bred. Many people have mediocre mares that they breed but why shouldn't the mare be as good, if not better than the stallion? Just some things to think about because there are ways of seeing that there aren't so many stallions and not breeding those mares is one of them!

Another thing someone may question is how are you going to know if that stallion is going to produce better than themselves if you don't breed them? The article does say to geld early which I think is wonderful but doesn't go along with the train of thought that a stallion needs to be proven for what it produces. I really am trying to stay nuetral here because I want to see all sides of the matter yet have people see all points of view to breeding and non breeding. Doesn't much of this come down to "why are we breeding when there is so many already?" Fortunately, for some breeders, I seem to be one that buys more than I produce. Mary



nootka said:


> :aktion033:
> 
> Awesome article!
> 
> ...


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 14, 2007)

Marty you have got it in one.

We are preaching to the choir.


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## Jill (Sep 14, 2007)

Unfortunately, though, not enough of us are singing the same tune :bgrin A lot of us are on the same page, but there are also a lot of us that have some lot to learn. And I do personally know it's not easy to decide to turn your stallion into a gelding. There are plenty of people who use this forum with stallions that would be better off as geldings. I think it's good to talk about it, and good to set an example in how you / we handle our own horses. You never know who may be reading but not posting on a certain thread.


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## Kendra (Sep 14, 2007)

Great article Nicole!

Our local club has been running gelding incentives since the beginning, almost 20 years ago. I think that probably has a lot to do with the fact that our gelding classes in this area are always huge, and generally of very high quality as well.

Since we've got the senior gelding numbers under control, our club has been focusing our our junior gelding incentive, which gives out $100 to members for each junior gelding, and $200 if that junior gelding is shown.

We show almost exclusively geldings, and I've been told more than once that we "must" regret gelding one or the other .... but we never have! And we've gelded a LOT of horses over the years!


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## Vertical Limit (Sep 14, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Marty you have got it in one.
> 
> We are preaching to the choir.


You got that right! A deaf one at that!




: :new_rofl:



> I think it would be wonderful if just ONE Miniature was gelded thanks to someone reading this article.


We can only hope! Lots more gelding threads to go.


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## mininik (Sep 14, 2007)

It is a mostly deaf choir, Marty, including some who have responded to this thread.



:

Mary, as I pointed out earlier, it is obviously NOT okay to breed lesser quality mares, but one stallion's impact on the breed has the potential to be far greater than that of most mares. Also, unlike many stallions, most intact mares aren't breaking down fences to be bred or acting dangerously towards eachother or their caretakers. Most mares can live peacefully in herds. Finally there is the concern that while spaying may not be much more expensive than gelding in some parts of the country, it is more invasive.

By all means, spay your lesser quality mares if you can or sell them on non-breeding contracts, but there is NO excuse to leave a stallion intact if he doesn't possess some outstanding reasons why he should be allowed to reproduce.


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## Warpony (Sep 14, 2007)

nootka said:


> Now that I see the "bigger" thing on the article, though, makes me a little nervous about gelding some of my colts so young, I guess they may go over, but I'd rather do that than breed fugly horses and/or have them breeding when they shouldn't be.


That is why I held off a little while on my colt but he will be gelded before next month. His mom is mid-range class B and I didn;t want to give him any more reason to grow UP instead of out. But I can't wait to have it done and over so he can have unrestricted access to his best friend. He is going to be so much happier once his hormones don;t require me to keep him confined every time the girl comes into heat.



Buckskin gal said:


> Why the double standard of making sure you can afford to geld a colt before breeding but not have mares spayed because it costs too much?


I think spaying will get more affordable and less invasive as technology improves. I don't have a vet in my area that will do one, period. Like mininik, I think it is less of a priority because a mare can only reproduce once a year where as a stallion can reproduce many many times a year, people also think it is a dangerous and invasive surgery that puts their mare at risk (and it can be), but also because you are a lot less likely to have the behaviour issue with a mare than you are with a stallion. It's a pretty rare thing for a mare to bust out of her paddock and accidentally get in foal by every stud in town (heh). It just seems to me it is a lot easier to manage a mare compared to a stud. Because of those reasons I don't think most people are too concerned about it.

I read somewhere that they can do laproscopic (sp?) spays on mares... something like that, it may have been a different term, but anyway it allows them to use a tiny incision and it is less risky for the mare and a lot cheaper with a lot less recovery time. I hope they pursue this type of thing because I think it would be fantastic if rescues and breeders could spay mares as easily as the geld colts.


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## Katiean (Sep 14, 2007)

I want to know why you all think just because someone is a "small breeder" and not a huge farm that treats the horses like dollar bills is any less capable of producing quality. My horses are very happy and healthy. I do not breed 1 1/2 yr olds but some "BIG" farms do. Does that make them better?


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## backwoodsnanny (Sep 14, 2007)

I still dont see the harm in having a stallion or even several if you dont sell minis and if you keep whatever you breed. We have never sold a stallion and probalbly never will . I will bite the bullet and pay the $350 that it costs to geld BEFORE I would sell a stallion that is unfit for breeding, I have only ever sold ONE male horse and that was a gelding. My stallions aren't neurotic they live together and get along fine as anyone who has been to my barn can tell you. They have their own stalls side by side and they go out in side by side paddocks. I have one stallion who is 8 and has not bred a mare since we rescued him but he is not unhappy. He lives with a mare who can not get pregnant and has a very good life. I realize not everyone has mares who cant conceive to give their stallions companionship but it works for us. I truly do agree with gelding but think that the price here is prohibitive and prevents many from doing it. I have PM'd Kathy to find out where she has found gelding for $200 our vet starts at that and goes up from there yearlings are more.


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## Songcatcher (Sep 14, 2007)

Gelding costs are rediculous in some areas. When a vet makes more in 30 minutes than the breeder makes on a years investment, something is terribly wrong. :no:

What I would like to see is for some clubs to get together and hire a vet to come to a central location and set up a clinic for a day where owners could bring their colts to be gelded and get a reduced price. With organization and cooperation, a vet could easily do a large number quickly and the owners could save some money. Some local vets may not be willing to do a reduced rate, but if enough people were willing to participate, you could get someone from a greater distance away who would be willing to provide a group discount.


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## miniwhinny (Sep 14, 2007)

Warpony said:


> I think it would be fantastic if rescues and breeders could spay mares as easily as the geld colts.



Everyone talks about gelding because simply put the "plumbing is on the outside" and it's easier but there are some mares out there being bred to lovely stallions coming up with mediocre foals. People say a mare can only produce one and a stallion can produce many....well true but only to a degree...he has to be exposed to a million first ! One mare , one stallion is all it takes for one baby. People need to stop thinking of every mare out there as an egg factory....some should just NOT be bred!



:


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## mininik (Sep 14, 2007)

Katiean said:


> I want to know why you all think just because someone is a "small breeder" and not a huge farm that treats the horses like dollar bills is any less capable of producing quality. My horses are very happy and healthy. I do not breed 1 1/2 yr olds but some "BIG" farms do. Does that make them better?



I don't even know where you came up with that. This is not an "us" versus "them" discussion.



:


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 14, 2007)

Heh, don't get me wrong, if you have seen my posts in the past I am all for gelding but I am also against mares that aren't any better than the stallion that needs to be gelded used to bring more babies into the world. It isn't about who can produce more, the stallion or the mare, this is about over all too much breeding. Yes, to fix a mare may be invasive but giving birth is also something that can take far more lives of mares than having a spay done on them, especially when it comes to the minis. I think that people are listening and evaluating what is said about gelding, and all other things to do about the over population of horses. There are those who don't geld their colts who are adding to this discussion and there are those that think their colts are too good to be gelded or that it costs them too much to do it so they ask the buyer to do it. Are these deaf ears or are they really doing such a terrific job with what they are producing that they feel this is all for the other guy? Just a hypothetical question due to the nature of wht is being said. Just because your stallions might be tearing down fences doesn't mean that all people have mean/untrained stallions. I love the stallions and just because they are stallions does not mean they will breed every mare that comes on the place nor does it mean they won't be trained for driving and bring enjoyment for us. I say geld and spay every mare and colt that you have if there is a problem but please don't lump all stallions together as to how they behave. Many peoiple think our stallions are as well behaved as some geldings. Thanks for your consideration, Mary



mininik said:


> It is a mostly deaf choir, Marty, including some who have responded to this thread.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## nootka (Sep 14, 2007)

Yup, us means all of us.

Me, included.

I do know that the majority of the colts I have sold are GELDINGS, through my influence or because the owners finally realized they were better off that way (the first colt "I" produced (mare was bred when I bought her) was NOT stallion quality by any stretch. I have a suspicion that his dam was one of the biggest dwarfs I've ever seen (she was 38")).

Anyway, I don't understand the mindset of anyone that says "Oh, I never intend to breed him, but never gonna geld. Nope."

Why?

I understand that some people (who are likely very good trainers/handlers, disneyhorse comes to mind off the top of my head) have their reasons, but truthfully, very few people have the need to keep an intact stallion that is not actively breeding.

I would say that at least 90% of the stallions I see posted (there's a thread on the photo gallery right now) are really not better than say 20 years ago what was being used....for whatever reasons, and the only reason I think it's a problem is that some of the breeders have been "in" this industry for well over 10 years, others for more, others less. The point is that we're not improving anything by romanticizing and anthropomorphizing the experience of breeding/creating foals.

It's the same with people. Most immature humans rarely look past the babe in arms when they contemplate a pregnancy. They don't look down the road more than having and holding that little baby.

When we mature, we start to realize that it's a lifetime commitment.

Yes, we're preaching to the choir, but some of us are missing the point anyway. Yes, mares are 50% of the equation, but most have no more than one foal per year if that. When I asked about spaying, I was basically warned off of it by two vets in the area due to cost and risk. I ended up selling the mare to a pet only home. All that I can do, but if spaying comes down to a few hundred bucks, or even $500, I'm THERE. I am that committed to improving this breed. I don't mean by "type" which my type may not be your type, I mean by correctness and soundness.

Again, this is a great article. Our club, the NWMHC, has long had a gelding incentive, and I donated some things to the AMHA Gelding Incentive fund at the World show. I like supporting these programs.

Liz M.


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## mydaddysjag (Sep 14, 2007)

Up until a year ago, I was strictly big horses, and the gelding issue with the minis is something that you don't see often in the big horses. I have NEVER seen so many stallions for sale. Generally with the big horses, mare owners do not own their own studs, unless it is a really big name farm. Now, you do have those random "backyard breeders", but not like you do with the minis. In my area it is very hard to find a boarding stable that will even accept a stallion. If you search any sale board for a Quarter Horse over 2 years old I can almost gaurantee that you might find 1 stallion for every 20 geldings. Gelding is just an assumed practice in the big horse world. We do not find it cute when a 1200lb stud acts out of hand. I dont think a 200 lb animal acting out of hand due to his hormones is "cute" either.

The halter breeders in the Big horse world geld most of their colts early, because they want them to grow taller. Obviously in the small horses, we want to keep them as short as their genetics allow, but thats no excuse not to geld. Sure, I knew Midas was going to be a B horse, and I realized that gelding him early would make him taller. Guess what? I gelded him when he was almost a yearling. By then I didnt have as much as a risk of him growing due to the gelding. There was never a question in my mind, I knew from the day I started looking at colts that no matter what I got it would be gelded. I wanted to get into showing something new, and I didnt need the added stress and complications of a studs hormones to start out.

Sure, I loooovvveee the look of a nice stallion. I love that certain hook neck that only studs seem to have, but I dont think ANYONE should be breeding a horse that couldnt hold its own in a show ring. Now, I realize that not everyone can afford to show their horse to a champion title, but your horse should atleast have the conformation that if you did show it, it would place. It seems like atleast 1 of every 5 members on here have a stallion. Why on earth anyone would want a stud for a pet gets me.

A nice stallion makes a better gelding. I always see people saying that "He's calm for a stud"

Well, I dont see any reason that there should be an acception. If hes so calm as a stud, think of how calm he would be as a stallion. I always bite my tongue when I see people posting pictures of their breeding stock, both studs and mares and have to bite my tongue, because I really want to tell them that their horse is probably a great pet, but if someone only wanted a great pet they should get it from a rescue.

Now, I also have a Quarter Horse mare. She can't be bred due to a previous owners neglegance. They bred her, and when she had the foal she tore her cervix. The owner never did anything about it, she developed a SEVERE infection, and she can never be bred again. People dont realize the dangers when they breed their horses, and it irks me.

Also, if I didnt want to pay to geld a colt that I bought, I wouldnt buy a colt. Thats just one of the assumed responsibilities that go with owning a colt for me.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 14, 2007)

Nootka, I am really impressed by how you are able to evaluate the conformation of the horses from pictures on the thread of stallions. Could you tell me how you do it for I certainly would not give an evalution of those stallions from those pictures. I might add, I think some of those minis from 20 years ago are nicely conformed minis that have had a tremendous impact on where the breed is today. Type changes but good conformation, to me, lasts. Even though conformation should not be subjective due to our standard, it still seems to be. Mary



nootka said:


> Yup, us means all of us.
> 
> Me, included.
> 
> ...


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## Minimor (Sep 14, 2007)

> It costs $350 in Nevada too. It discurraged me too. That is $350 for a simple geld and more if there is a problem. I could trailer to California but that just defeats the trip. As it would cost about $75 just for the trip plus time. I don't think that will work.


How much would it cost per gelding if you hauled to California? If the gelding procedure itself is a lot cheaper in the next state, I'd say it's worth it to load up several & get them all done in one trip (assuming you have several colts to geld?)--That's what we do now, load up 2 or 3 at a time & haul them to another area where there is a vet that is excellent at gelding Minis plus charges much less than the local vets. Last year I had 2 done by a local vet & it cost me $343. If I'd known & taken them to this other vet I could have had 4 done for that amount, hauling included. As it was I hauled 2 over this past spring & had them done--cost me less than $200 total, wolf teeth extraction included. After this ours go 2 or 3 or 4 at a time to this more distant vet--I pay $40 is gas to get there & back, but I save $200 on the vet cost for 4 horses.


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## George (Sep 14, 2007)

As I was reading this thread I kept jumping back to the photo thread of the stallions and Liz and I are seeing two different things. What I see in that thread are what I consider exceptional horses. Many of them actually look like horses. Too many of the photo's I am seeing of so called "top" stallions remind me more of miniature poodles than horses. They almost look like a whisper could knock them over and they look more like a female than a male. I am sorry but if those miniature horses on the stallion photo thread are no better than the stallions of 20 years ago then I wish I'd discovered miniature horses 20 years ago those must have been some memorable horses in those days.

Also as has been mentioned, many sites showcase their beautiful stallions on the front page and then wehn you look at the mare page you soon realize why they're not on the front page.


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## mydaddysjag (Sep 14, 2007)

Now that Ive thought about this for a few more minutes, I have come up with another thing that irks me.

Many mini breeders have only 1 or 2 stallions, and seem to have quite a bit more broodmares than stallions. Do you HONESTLY think that your stallion is the BEST POSSIBLE MATCH for EVERY mare that you own? I see a lot of people who are breeding their Nice stud to a nice mare, but the stalion dosent complement the mare. If more people bred their horses to outsode horses they would have a better chance of finding their mare the best possible match, not a "close enough" match. With the big horses most big breeders put a lot of thought into what stud they use for their mares. If their mare has a weakness, they try to find a stud who is strong in that area. If they have a horse who is conformationally very nice, with the exception of a not so nice head, they try to get a stud who has nice conformation, and a GREAT head. 2 ugly heads do not = 1 pretty head, etc.


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## disneyhorse (Sep 14, 2007)

nootka said:


> I understand that some people (who are likely very good trainers/handlers, disneyhorse comes to mind off the top of my head) have their reasons, but truthfully, very few people have the need to keep an intact stallion that is not actively breeding.


I happen to love stallions. I also love geldings... but for MY limited space and set up I try to keep horses that have decent "resale" value... I know that sounds terrible but most of the horses I've shown/trained/enjoyed are more broke than when I bought them and if a stallion, now have performance and a show record on them.

The sad part is, a GOOD gelding just can't justify spending a couple year's worth of $$$ in show fees and training (for me as an amateur owner, I spend approx $2,000 extra per year to show a horse. So if I buy a gelding for $2,000, show it for two years, I've now invested $6,000 in him and that is above costs for vet, board, farrier, ect. which I won't recoup selling a gelding but might if it's a well-selected stallion... and I AM VERY PICKY about my prospects that I select). They cannot, like a GOOD stallion, increase in value so much. I like getting a stallion with lots of potential, enjoying him by showing and training him, and then reselling him to someone who needs a good stallion but who maybe wants to continue showing or has some mares waiting for him. I do not have mares and generally after a few years of showing, feel "bad" for him and feel the need to let him reach his full potential (breeding). I agree with you though... it is NOT fair to a stallion to keep him intact "just because."

I have gelded a few colts, and didn't regret it at all. They weren't expensive to start with, and ended up being very broke, safe horses that can show and drive and be great kids horses.

Everyone has their own situation, but bottom line is... to BE a STALLION you MUST have some good genes to pass along. Hopefully a stallion has EVERYTHING... pedigree, conformation, movement, type, presence, bloodlines, show record, ability to be trained, temperament, and NO weak links there anywhere.

I can buy a stallion who has potential and the basics... good movement, temperament, conformation, and bloodlines... and I can ADD training and show record so he has more "good points" to be ALL the stallion he can BE.

Not all horses are born with temperament, conformation, movement, bloodlines, parents with show records... and shame on the breeder for handicapping that foal by breeding inferior parents. Champions MAY produce champions but inferior horses WILL NOT produce champions. The equation generally only works one way.

I know RuffNTuff says that breeding Champion to Champion will ensure a Champion foal... but it increases the odds dramatically.

So many people just say "Oh he's the son of so-and-so and he's not bad looking...." and think that's what makes a great stallion. But we MUST be pickier and decide what we are truly going to invest in our breeding stock and what we are going to create for the future.

Andrea


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## LowriseMinis (Sep 14, 2007)

I know it can get annoying to rehash the same subject over and over. However, I haven't been here for the previous discussions so I enjoyed reading the article and the resulting discussion, for the most part.

If nothing else, it reminds me to call my vet and see what he charges for gelding. We have nothing to geld right now, but we will in the future. Whatever the cost is, I'm just going to lump it in as a 'breeding expense' right along with the stud fee and such.


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## SweetOpal (Sep 14, 2007)

whoever said " they can't afford it" then you shouldn't breed. I would pay a $1,000 per horse if that is what it cost to have mine gelded! The horse is happier and so is the owner. There is no way I would want to show a stallion full time. I showed mine for a year, he was a joy, he HOF'ed and was the National GRAND Champion at the AMHR Nationals, he acts like a gelding. (only one mare bred for next year, and we will keep it wether it is filly or colt) However his colts were gelded, I don't need more stallions, I love showing and I want to enjoy the time I spend with my horses, not worried about resale one bit here, I'm more worried about safety and having a good time. I honestly feel that when I am done showing a horse or I am ready to move on, upgrade whatever you want to call it, I enjoy finding the right home for the horse rather than make a big ole profit I can get excited about. These horses are my second set of kids, thank goodness I didn't have as many kids as ponies!!! That is not always easy to put a price on.

It is just as fun to win with a GELDING as it is a stallion. I will have 4 geldings and one mare on my show string for next year! And if I take a national GRAND with a Gelding I can reassure you I will feel just as happy as I did with my stallion....

The reason the market is low for geldings is becuase of peoples opinions thinking it can't reproduce, it aint doodoo!

JMO!


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Sep 14, 2007)

disneyhorse said:


> fair to a stallion to keep him intact "just because."
> 
> to BE a STALLION you MUST have some good genes to pass along. Hopefully a stallion has EVERYTHING... pedigree, conformation, movement, type, presence, bloodlines, show record, ability to be trained, temperament, and NO weak links there anywhere.
> 
> ...


Ok first off a champion to a champion will NOT ALWAYS get you a champion is what I say




and that fact is PROVEN EVERY DAY on EVERY BREEDING FARM

And while I agree on what you say on what a stallion needs to have.. the reality is the whole problem is that everyone seems to think that is what there stallion has..... we all read this thread and say oh ya I GET IT IT DOESNT APPLY TO ME why doesnt everyone else get it...

Bottom line is minis is the only breed geldings are worthless this happens and is said over and over again and until we as breeders/sellers CHANGE it it wont change. If all everyone could get was geldings and only 30 percent of the boys say were stallions well that would increase the market for both geldings and stallions but bottom line is somehow for some reason many on this board and in this breed feel that a gelding means the handler is inferior.. it is looked at as a failure of some sort - as if you have a stallion you surely MUST BE a better horseman... i say HOGWASH you want to talk resale value.. hmmmm why not look at some of those olympic horses that are geldings to reining horses that are geldings, barrel horses, hunters, jumpers the list goes on and on

HAVING AND GELDING A FOAL OF YOUR BREEDING IS NOT A FAILURE- IT DOES NOT EQUAL INFERIOR


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## mydaddysjag (Sep 14, 2007)

Go to any big horse show and tell me how many stallions you see. Compare that to the number of geldings. Generally, unless you are a big name breeding farm, you dont show a stud. They generally PREFER gelding because they dont come into heat at your shows, and act moody, and they arent smelling all of the girls and getting ansty.


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## BigDogs & LittleHorses (Sep 14, 2007)

I've said this a million times, but I think the answer lies with getting artificial insemination / frozen semen allowed and the technology perfected. Collect your stallion, freeze it, geld him if you want... you're covered for all scenarios. Otherwise , gelding is genetic death and irreversible. .Just about every show dog Champion including mine has frozen in storage. It's not cheap, and the AKC requires DNA testing. I'm glad it is there though.

Daryl


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## tagalong (Sep 14, 2007)

20 years ago... the horses tended to be short on leg... and bulkier overall. With a few notable exceptions. Some dwarf stallions were still contributing to the gene pool. Anything with four legs was bred to anything else with four legs - and yes - that may still happen today - but most people are somewhat more discerning now.

20 years ago - my Equine Reproductive Physiology class was presented with a How To Foal video that had been put together by a mini breeder - not as an example of good procedures. The advice in that video was extremely.... let's say "bizarre"... at times... and the featured foal... was a dwarf.

I would like to think that we have come a long way in 20 years... and moved forward. Well, I don't just think that - I know we have. You look at a horse like Miss Kentucky today - and she looks like a horse - not like a champion mare of 20 years ago who might have been more of a Thelwell pony.

We have gelded National Champion stallions here - without a backward glance. And they have simply switched to being National Champion geldings - or gone on to happy lives as pets. Any regrets? No.

And yes - the first rule of breeding is *breed the best to the best and HOPE for the best*.... sometimes it happens and sometimes it doesn't - but we have the stewardship of the breed... and IMO should not be breeding (or not gelding) out of convenience - but with responsibility - for the improvement/advancement of the breed - whether you have 3 horses - or 30.




:


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## Ashley (Sep 14, 2007)

I love to geld, and my vet loves to geld...........but my vet dont geld babies. Anybody got a vet they can send me that would do foals?


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 14, 2007)

Lisa said, " Bottom line is minis is the only breed geldings are worthless this happens and is said over and over again and until we as breeders/sellers CHANGE it it wont change. "

I wouldn't go so far as to say mini geldings are worthless. In fact, the highest selling mini/pony at the large Billings Mini/pony sale several weeks ago was a gelding that hubby had trained to drive. Spent many hours ground driving him to where he was steady to most anything. Because he was well trained he sold well....bringing a higher price than those who were well bred and had even done winning at shows in halter. This sale has been a yearly sale for about 7 years and every time I have noticed that any gentle well trained mini or pony brought the better prices. I think these buyers have the big horse mentality that geldings are best for their kids and for those who enjoy the pleasure of driving. Maybe the colts not only need to be gelded but they also need to be trained......big horse geldings that are well trained bring some very good prices here also. I wish all people would tke the time to make their minis usable for something besides breeding and then they could sell as such. Mary

P.S. This gelding was not a mini we bred, it was a mini that was given to us because of being unwanted....we took him and made him wanted by someone.


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## maestoso (Sep 15, 2007)

I think that some of these posts are unfair, and give the impression to readers that they are bad horsepeople if they keep a stud. For many of the reasons noted, yeah,gelding makes more sense. But it is not cut and dry plan for everyone.

I am about to buy a little colt, who I fully intent on keeping intact. He is of stallion quality, though I am not buying him as a breeding prospect. I am experienced and knowledgable and I prefer to show a stud, and I like the extra spunk that they have. He be pasture buddies with a gelding, since I have that option.

I really don't think it is anyones place to tell me I am doing something wrong, or setting my horse up to live a sad life.

Instead of just saying, everyone or most people should geld, why don't you tackle the problem in a useful manner, and start educating owners or prospective owners about the options and challenges that are faced when owning a stallion. The problem is inexperience, not stallions.


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## Ashley (Sep 15, 2007)

> am experienced and knowledgable and I prefer to show a stud, and I like the extra spunk that they have. He be pasture buddies with a gelding, since I have that option.


and do you have a place to put him when he decides he no longer likes the gelding and wants to kill him?


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 15, 2007)

Matt, well said. The problem isn't with owning a stallion or even two or three the problem is using them to further the production of more horses. I agree that a mini stallion doesn't have to live a sad life for they are trainable. Sure they aren't for everyone but for those who have the time for them and have inherited good dispositions they sure are pleasurable. Mary



Matt Drown said:


> I think that some of these posts are unfair, and give the impression to readers that they are bad horsepeople if they keep a stud. For many of the reasons noted, yeah,gelding makes more sense. But it is not cut and dry plan for everyone.
> 
> I am about to buy a little colt, who I fully intent on keeping intact. He is of stallion quality, though I am not buying him as a breeding prospect. I am experienced and knowledgable and I prefer to show a stud, and I like the extra spunk that they have. He be pasture buddies with a gelding, since I have that option.
> 
> ...


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## Littleum (Sep 15, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Instead of just saying, everyone or most people should geld, why don't you tackle the problem in a useful manner, and start educating owners or prospective owners about the options and challenges that are faced when owning a stallion. The problem is inexperience, not stallions.


No, the problem is breeders perputating a mindset AND failing to just accept certain hard facts about the Miniature business model.

I've been involved in this breed for going on 20 years now. I can't tell you how many "new owners" with ZERO horse experience buy a crummy colt and filly fully planning on breeding more crummy foals- all under the watchful eye of the breeder who sold them said crummy foals.

I can't fault the breeders for watching their bottomline. Why geld a colt worth $1,000 and devalue him to $500, while having $300 in expenses to accomplish it? From a business perspective, that doesn't make a lick of sense. From the "responsible breeder" standpoint, if the colt is that unremarkable he's worth $1,000, what the heck business does he have reproducing? It's a catch 22.

This really is, in my opinion, a problem placed on the breeders' shoulders- and every one of us has a part in making it. I think there are several solutions. The most obvious one is stop breeding for a "hobby" or "for fun" and using average joe smoe stock. I'm spitting into the wind on that one because I know people will say:

"They're my horses, I love them and take care of them and if I want to have a couple of (crummy) foals every year, I will. Mind your own business"

So is the answer then something like what they've done with dogs- non breeding papers? I've been rolling the idea around in my head and wondering if it wouldn't help somewhat. It would give breeders the option of selling colts ENTIRE but making future breeding potential very limited. Not impossible (as with a gelding/spaying) but not nearly so appealing nor easy. You're not telling people what they can or can't do, you're just telling them "You can, BUT..." and letting them make their own choices.


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## Chamomile (Sep 15, 2007)

I've said it once and I'll say it again on this post... EVERYONE thinks their horses are worth breeding. OR they wouldn't have them. THAT'S the problem, barn blindness. The problem is not the people that ARE gelding their colts, the problem starts with people that don't know the BREED STANDARD... I've met many many miniature horse breeders that don't know the standard. If you ask them if they know it, they give you a blank look and say... "Breed Standard??" EVERYONE needs to learn and know the breed standard. Knowing it can protect you from barn blindness. I have a whole article about it on my website...

Anyway! I wish we could spay mares. Around here the vets will only do it if there is some Huge medical problem and it's needed for the health of the mare. But there is a new shot you can give your mares, it acts like a birth control. I am looking into it for my main driving mare. Conformationally she has things that I wouldn't want to pass onto a foal... Here are a couple of pictures of her!

Chamomile
















She is a beautiful moving mare, but conformationally, she is not as close to perfect as I can get. That would be Whiskey



: Anyhow! Just my two cents and of course this is all my personal opinion....


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## nootka (Sep 15, 2007)

No, the whole issue isn't people that choose to have some idealistic "stallion/stud" horse running around their place, or even twenty of them, if they are a horseman or horsewoman enough to handle them safely and keep them emotionally and physically happy, it is those that are just breeding for the heck of it, basically, and when it boils down to it, those people that are breeding for the "few hundred" a piece market, are pretty much not making money at it, so I don't fully understand.

It will and always be, as has been stated, those that seem stuck in the past, and refuse to fully comprehend that we're trying to move forward to the "standard" which is a HORSE in miniature, not a dwarfed pony.

Yes, we're technically breeding ponies, but look at the Shetlands in the ring today, they don't look anything like the dwarfy tiny things, they have way better proportions, and I have seen Miniatures under 34" even under 30" that have better proportions, so I know it IS possible.

It's just less likely when more people breed any and everything.

It starts with gelding the inferior, and I hate to even say it, but the majority of people breeding as a sideline or hobby are doing NO justice to the breed.

The ONLY lucky thing for me with the first few foals I produced was that they were colts that could be GELDED so my mistakes ended there. I have the first filly I produced as a mare, she is the dam of the gelding in my avatar, as well as Pyro. She is not what I would choose today as a broodmare, but luckily she's outproduced herself when I've chosen her mates very carefully.

I will gladly retire her when I get a filly as nice as or nicer than her, and MOVE ON.

The same would go for a stallion.

I choose not to own a stallion because I could likely not afford to purchase a stallion of the caliber that I want to breed to. Does that mean I have to save my $$ to maybe breed every other year because of that? Fine. Sounds like a good start at population control and gives me a lot more time to market my foals/grow them up, show them and train them.

Perhaps we should not be so focused on selling our foal crops as weanlings and look at a more realistic timeline of devoting a year, two or three to getting them grown and trained and offer more finished "products" to our market? It would require less breeding to save room for these, but what's wrong with that?

SOME will sell young, but others won't...it's a fact, and yet everyone seems to toss the mare right back in with the stallion year after year.

If you have a limited budget, do your homework, save up, and buy ONE nice horse from which to begin your "empire", not a half-dozen you found at the auction in hopes that they will clean up nice (that is if your'e breeding, more power to you if you rescue) and produce more babies that are at risk of hitting the auction themselves.

How many posts (and there was just one recently) do we see where someone goes to a farm and picks out one boy and one girl horse, and all the starry-eyed plans to breed them to each other down the road? Why does this raise our hackles?

Any of us that's been doing this any time at all know that it may well be unlikely to find both your "future herd prospects" at the same farm, the same age, and for sale as weanlings that we could tell were of the quality we should be breeding. Oftentimes these same posters will be brand new to horses/minis and asking questions that make us cringe when they've already gotten to the point (in their minds) of welcoming that new foal into the world. Not that they are wrong to come and ask, to come and learn, because any one of us is MORE than happy to offer that, but that they would leap before they looked, and get to that point without enough thought and knowledge put into such a serious consideration.

Over the years, I've helped a few people realize that there were better choices, and made many myself. We all have to start somewhere. If just one person rethinks their breeding program for the better, then every single letter of all these posts was well worth it.

I guess I've talked or typed myself blue in the face over this one, but we're all responsible for making better decisions, and we're all learning. No one of us has the right to say they have it 100% right. I think the ones getting defensive are reading something into this message that's not there. The ones not saying a thing are hopefully looking and thinking, and/or finding a good mentor to help them.

There are some great resources out there, and guess what, none of them are going to force you to buy their stock or make it a requirement before they help out. I know this from experience.

Liz M.


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## Minimor (Sep 15, 2007)

Mindy, what a lovely driving horse your mare is! She may not be perfect in conformation, but she sure comes into herself in harness.

Mindy is right--everyone does think their horses are worth breeding, though I think there are a few that have more the attititude "I know they aren't great but they're mine & I can breed them if I want to, SO THERE!"--I do sense that attitude in a few. And lets face it, no matter how good the horses are, there will always be someone that won't like those horses. There are lots of people who won't like my horses, and there are many horses I don't like--there are some show ring champions that you couldn't GIVE to me--there are those horses I look at & think they are nice, yet there's something about them that also make me add "but not what I would want". We're not breeding for sale, yet have had people that did want to buy our horses if only we would agree to sell--which means that there are other people out there that do like our horses. I know what their faults are--believe me I'm very hard on my own horses when I evaluate them--but I also know their good points, & in the breeding we've done we've mostly gotten what we are wanting in our horses.

We geld a lot--close to half our herd consists of geldings, all but 2 of those we have gelded. And we have several more to geld, not because they are especially poor in quality, just because we don't want them as stallions.

I don't get all the hostility that shows up in these gelding threads. No one is pointing fingers and saying you should geld, or you over there should geld--it's just about numbers in general. There are simply way too many stallions in the Mini breed, and quite frankly I don't get it. Geldings should be worth something. Geldings would be worth something if you--we--all of us--MADE them worth something.

If $250 or $350 is too much for gelding because you can't sell a gelding for much more than that...then what do you on average get for those same horses as stallions? Do you really get $1000 and up for them as stallions? Or do you let them go cheap for $350 to $500 just to get rid of them, and figure that's an okay price because you haven't laid out any money for gelding in order to get that price??? And if you sell them on application, that's a little more money that you don't have to lay out prior to selling?

If they aren't worth the cost of gelding, then they really aren't worth much are they?? And if they aren't worth the cost of registration, they're worth even less. I fail to see how a horse is worth anything as a stallion if he isn't worth the cost of gelding.

If people want geldings to be worth something, then I'd suggest that people should start gelding their colts, decide what each of those geldings is worth, set that price & then stick to it. Don't give away the horse for a pittance--don't leave him intact and sell him for a pittance just to get rid of him (think about it--if all these colts & stallions weren't available cheap because they're all gelded & priced a worthwhile price, buyers would be more inclined to buy a gelding! Stallions worthy of being stallions would be priced accordingly higher, all others would be gelded and priced accordingly....realistically they would be cheaper than the stallions, but would still have good "worthwhile" prices...and so buying a gelding would be much more attractive to many.) If you have to hold onto that horse awhile until you get your price, then do it. If you find you're holding on to too many, well, quit breeding until you get them sold. Perhaps train them & then sell them...

I had one gelding for sale awhile back (had absolutely no intention of selling him intact, gelding contract or no, so he was gelded before being advertised) & I had a query from someone that wanted to know if I'd sell him without papers at a drastically reduced price. After all, she said, there are many horses advertised much cheaper. I told her point blank that she should go & buy one of those other advertised horses then if she wants cheap and unregistered. My gelding was worth his asking price & I was not going to sell him without his papers--nor was I going to drop his price. He did sell elsewhere a short time after that, for his asking price.

The subject of giveaway geldings is a sore point with me. I have this lovely little gelding, Dusty, who started his life as one of the many throwaway geldings in this breed. One of about a hundred foals born to his breeder that year he and several other colts were given away to a buyer that bought a high priced filly. Buyer could then take the colts home & resell them, thus recouping some of the filly's purchase price. Dusty was shuffled through a couple homes before I found him starving in a pasture. I brought him home, fed him up and have made him into a nice little driving horse. He's a pet that will never leave here. We pastured him at a neighbor's one summer, and poor Dusty went into a decline--even though I went over at least once a day with oats & bug spray I guess that pasture reminded him of his previous sorry existance, and it worried him. I ended up bringing him home & he perked right up again--he seems to just like being around home, knowing he's not forgotten & unloved! :lol: Anyway, I just get very hostile every time I think about Dusty being given away as he was--virtually worthless, and given away just to get rid of him. The breeder said she was happy to know I'd rescued him--she hates to know that they end up in a bad situation like I found Dusty in--but honestly I don't think she cares, because she just continues with the same cycle. If the colts aren't worth more than just being given away....why keep raising them??? I just don't get it. :no:

Bottom line, though, is that Mini geldings aren't going to be worth anything until Mini breeders make them worth something!


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 15, 2007)

([SIZE=8pt]Oh Flip, here she goes again, just ignore her and she will go away).[/SIZE]



:

There is NO other breed in which animals are kept entire in the way that Miniatures are.

Now EVERYONE can have a stallion!!

Wow and impress all your friends, too, and live your dream.

For me it is not about what is best for ME it is what is best for the horse and, nine times out of ten, gelding is best for the horse.

Simple as that.

If you do not intend to breed it, geld it.

That is what is best for the horse.

You can kid yourself about all the rest if you want.

If you are going to keep it entire make sure it is 100% worthy (nothing to do with showing, BTW although that seems to be the easiest way to judge in the first instance) and make sure it will get enough mares to keep it happy.

If you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem. :ugh: :deadhorse2:


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## Jill (Sep 15, 2007)

I own two (or 1.5!) stallions (and 6 geldings). I am confident about the REASONS my stallions are stallions, and I sure didn't get the impression I should be doing any re-thinking as a result of this thread. If you really know you have an outstanding stallion, you're not going to be feeling defensive reading this thread. If you do feel defensive, you maybe want to take a better look at what you actually have on your hands.

With so many mini stallions, only top notch halter horses need to stay whole and then only if the owner really has a use for them as a stallin (vs. as a gelding). Most mini breeders are not breeding for quality. They are breeding because they have a mare and a stallion. THAT's what's wrong with the breed.

QUESTION -- does anyone know the registry statistics as to how many stallions vs. how many geldings are "out there" ? (I bet if so, it will be a depressing number!)


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 15, 2007)

Excellent, succinct post, Jill.

I do not know about the AMHA at the moment but I do know in the UK we have a breeding age entire animals for EVERY breeding age mare- this is totally irrespective of either animals quality.

These are the statics I find scary!!!


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## nootka (Sep 15, 2007)

> I own two (or 1.5!) stallions (and 6 geldings). I am confident about the REASONS my stallions are stallions, and I sure didn't get the impression I should be doing any re-thinking as a result of this thread. If you really know you have an outstanding stallion, you're not going to be feeling defensive reading this thread. If you do feel defensive, you maybe want to take a better look at what you actually have on your hands.


I didn't really direct this at you, Jill. You are one of those people I truly admire for the time and research you put into your herd well before you started really breeding.

I think you're a long ways ahead of most of us, and I wish I'd started out as wisely as you have.

I still think every last one of us needs to be constantly keeping an eye on our herds, as it is a dynamic thing, and will need refining (as in say the stallion's not seeming to nick with a certain mare, or maybe he's not throwing quality better than himself, etc. etc.) as it progresses over the years.

Still others need to take a step back and truly evaluate their breeding animals vs. their goals as well as what is currently the higher standard as we strive for the breed standard.

NOT necessarily what's in style in the ring, but what's in style in the ring generally has a common feature: correct conformation and we can argue that all day long, but the majority are far better proportioned and have less conformational defects which will result in unsoundness. Don't care what size or aspect you want to excel in, there are higher standards we should all be moving towards and if we're not doing better with each generation, then something's wrong.

Right now I have two geldings and four mares, one is retired and the other mare is just a weanling. MAYBE one mare bred for next year to an outside stallion.

Liz M.


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## KanoasDestiny (Sep 15, 2007)

I have a question and I hope this doesn't start any flaming, but if you repeatedly breed every year and you are striving to better the breed (which everybody swears they are doing)...then why on earth would you ever sell a colt without gelding him first??? I have heard others say that it would be just too expensive to geld 2, 3, 5, 10+ colts every year, but if you can't AFFORD to better the breed, then why breed to begin with?

If you think about it logically...if MOST colts were gelded, then that would mean that A LOT less foals would be produced each year (by those who don't know what they are doing or just don't care), and the couple extra hundred dollars you spent gelding could bring you a lot more money in the future as numbers of minis start to decline (making them bigger in demand). To me, if you sell ungelded colts for whatever reason, then you don't have a right to complain about the overpopulation of grade minis and a decreased market for them.


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## disneyhorse (Sep 15, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> ([SIZE=8pt]Oh Flip, here she goes again, just ignore her and she will go away).[/SIZE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Actually Rabbitzfizz... there ARE some breeds where most of the horses are kept as stallions. One breed is the Andalusian. Spaniards keep almost all of their colts entire, and some never with the intent to breed. Here in the United States more breeders of the Andalusian are willing to geld but still because the value decreases so much, most are still kept as stallions.

Andrea


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## Jill (Sep 15, 2007)

Hey, Liz --

No, I didn't think you were directing anything at me and I appreciate the things you have told me. They mean a lot because I have admired your own horses for years.

I was "inspired" by someone else who felt people were being urged to geld their stallions. Boy, there are surely some who should! But a lot of the ones I have in mind think we're all just jealous :bgrin



:



:



:

When those people actually brag this or that foal looks just like the sire. And, the sire would really would make a pet quality gelding himself... Where DO you go from there? 

Jill


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## Minimor (Sep 15, 2007)

Why Jill, you just tell them "yes, they have the exact same tail"....kind of a similar thing to what a friend of mine tells people when they ask him "how do you like this horse?" and there isn't a thing he likes about the horse....he just looks serious and says "UMMM HMMM, he has a nice tail!" My version of that is "oooh, he's a pretty color!" so I guess you could also say "yep, they're the same color anyway" :lol:


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## Jill (Sep 15, 2007)

I hear you! But the problem is, they do look a lot like their sire (which is not a good thing) :bgrin I editted my post since you all haven't learned to know what I mean vs. what I say yet LOL!!!


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## George (Sep 15, 2007)

One thing I don't think other's are thinking about when they make cute and witty remarks about the quality of other's horses on this forum is that some of you have your websites posted as well as your true identity on your websites. Some of the people whose feelings you might be hurting may very well be the people you run into at shows in the future. I think showing should be for fun, not a stressful event because you've insulted someone and now they're standing next to you in a show. Also, what you post here may cause buyers to pass you over because to be honest they may very well like your horses but not the drama. marketing is much more than proudly showcasing the product, you have to represent yourself in a positive light as well. Your job as a breeder is to promote your horses, not share negative opionions of the quality of other's horses.

I don't think you have to pick out anyone's horses specifically to insult many people. To say people are posting fugly horses on this sight and so on is incredibly insulting to many people, not just a few who you might be talking about. Would you say a picture of someone's kids was fugly etc? Most likely not. As a new member I have already picked out the few members to stay clear of, not because their horses are fugly or inferior to others, I choose to avoid them and in the future pass them over if I am looking for top quality horses because their disrespect towards other members of the board paint a mental image of nagging stage mothers.

Please, if you believe your horse is top quality than be proud and share how you came about the results but don't insinuate openly that other members animals are (insert negative remarks here). Many of you do breed great looking horses (and have the right to brag) and you do have great knowledge; what you're lacking most is couth. Try and be just a little more respectful to all members regarding their horses. If you beleiev people should geld their stallions than explain why without mentioning the conformations of horses you've seen on the board. You might not like them but you can bet the people who take the time to post about their horses do and just maybe other's like their horses too whether they are show quality or not.

It is easier to educate people when they like you. And, standing next to someone in a show ring next to someone who is smiling at you is much more pleasant experience than standing next to someone who is glaring at you.


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## lilfolks (Sep 15, 2007)

The last I knew here in my part of CT, gelding was $395.00 plus the farm call but that was a few years back.

Since I am cutting down on the size of my herd, I haven't bred for 4 or 5 years so I don't know what the present rate is.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Sep 15, 2007)

Mary(or anyone else) please dont think I think geldings are worthless. I realize I may have worded that a bit wrong...

I have 2 soon to be 3 out of 11 horses that are geldings.

I realize that what I have is what others may not want I realize that while my horses have done ok in the show ring despite having me as a handler.. that doesnt make them better then anyone elses nor does it mean they are the "best of the best"

I think all we can do is what works for us, and make a difference in some small way in our own little corners of the world that "difference" will be of course different for everyone- from gelding, to breeding one less mare, to gelding a colt before we sell, or not using "breeding" issues in our sales tactics

For me it is breeding less mares

whatever it is as long as we all feel we are doing something we are on the right track.


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## Mona (Sep 15, 2007)

WOW...excellent post! :aktion033:



George said:


> One thing I don't think other's are thinking about when they make cute and witty remarks about the quality of other's horses on this forum is that some of you have your websites posted as well as your true identity on your websites. Some of the people whose feelings you might be hurting may very well be the people you run into at shows in the future. I think showing should be for fun, not a stressful event because you've insulted someone and now they're standing next to you in a show. Also, what you post here may cause buyers to pass you over because to be honest they may very well like your horses but not the drama. marketing is much more than proudly showcasing the product, you have to represent yourself in a positive light as well. Your job as a breeder is to promote your horses, not share negative opionions of the quality of other's horses.
> 
> I don't think you have to pick out anyone's horses specifically to insult many people. To say people are posting fugly horses on this sight and so on is incredibly insulting to many people, not just a few who you might be talking about. Would you say a picture of someone's kids was fugly etc? Most likely not. As a new member I have already picked out the few members to stay clear of, not because their horses are fugly or inferior to others, I choose to avoid them and in the future pass them over if I am looking for top quality horses because their disrespect towards other members of the board paint a mental image of nagging stage mothers.
> 
> ...


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## Relic (Sep 15, 2007)

Nice post George...


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## Shari (Sep 15, 2007)

George said:


> I don't think you have to pick out anyone's horses specifically to insult many people. To say people are posting fugly horses on this sight and so on is incredibly insulting to many people, not just a few who you might be talking about. Would you say a picture of someone's kids was fugly etc? Most likely not. As a new member I have already picked out the few members to stay clear of, not because their horses are fugly or inferior to others, I choose to avoid them and in the future pass them over if I am looking for top quality horses because their disrespect towards other members of the board paint a mental image of nagging stage mothers.


I did not read through the whole thread....but.....

George...that was wonderfully said.

When I was raising mini's up north... gelding would cost $500.00 for a mini. Only sold one on an gelding contract...will not do that again. Person did not even bother to transfer his registry papers. Sigh ~~

I think that the R & A registries need to help promote geldings more. Think 90% of all Stallions out there would make better geldings. I think the measure of ones breeding program shows in the quality of the geldings. Be it what ever type one is into.

In the past...big horses.. all I wanted was geldings. When I was looking for that first mini all those years ago.... I did not care wither it was a gelding or mare...just looking for a certain temperament. Ended up being Maggie and the mare theme contiuned.

I, in all honesty, did not see many geldings for sale in my area...most were not handled much let alone halter trained.

No matter what I look at... I want the basic's done before I buy...ie halter training, picking up hooves and doesn't mind being groomed.

That is one of the reasons I did not end up with a gelding.

Before this accident I was really looking into a cart trained gelding....but I had/have some requirements.

ie.. a gelding that has no clue about mares in season. Some geldings are real geldings..and others like the Arab gelding I had.. did everything a stud would do except get them in foal. Because I want to run everyone together and I have mares...one of the questions was the above. Bcause I care for the health of all my animals.. I need a clueless in the mare department gelding.

Most people I talked with had no idea what I was talking about :no: . Then with the other requirements.. active driving...years/miles...I got ..oh he was in cart..3 years ago. sigh ~~ Yes.. knew what I wanted and was willing to pay a good price but could not find what I was looking for. Then things changed. I might go back to looking spring/summer of 09.

Anyway.. all I can talk about is what I have gone through.

If I see a horse on here..or anywhere else I do not like the type/conformation or what ever... I just say nothing.


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## Marty (Sep 15, 2007)

_I don't think you have to pick out anyone's horses specifically to insult many people. To say people are posting fugly horses on this sight and so on is incredibly insulting to many people, not just a few who you might be talking about. Would you say a picture of someone's kids was fugly etc? Most likely not. As a new member I have already picked out the few members to stay clear of, not because their horses are fugly or inferior to others, I choose to avoid them and in the future pass them over if I am looking for top quality horses because their disrespect towards other members of the board paint a mental image of nagging stage mothers_

Word Perfect George.

I love a good discussion but when it becomes down right cruel, hurtful, sarcastic and insulting, the education stops, the learners retreat and the thread benefits no one. A true horseman will find beauty in every horse.


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## nootka (Sep 15, 2007)

> A true horseman will find beauty in every horse.


This is true, but a true horseman also realizes that not every horse needs to reproduce to have "beauty" and just because there IS beauty does not mean it is breeding-quality.

I think the sarcasm or "hurtfulness" which is noticed is taken the wrong way, because NOONE has mentioned specific horses.

Yes, MY farm name, my link, my full name is on here, but I stand beside what I say and feel, and am perfectly willing to help anyone in any way, and go out of my way to be helpful and friendly at shows, even to those who obviously have a lot to learn, mostly because I was there one day, myself, and appreciated everyone who treated me the same (welcoming).

When I have the opportunity, though, I do try to direct them to see what might be "wrong" and lead them to a better decision down the road.

Seriously, why is it an insult to say that a horse is NOT breeding quality?

The gelding in my avatar is a very beautiful horse, however he is NOT breeding quality. There is his beauty, and the long and short of it is that he's heavy boned (ish), he is camped out behind, has a weak hip and a large, plain head. He is, however, very willing to work, and learns fairly quickly, and has had a pretty darn nice show career so far. So there you have the "fugly" as well.

If I'm on someone's "avoid" list for my opinions, then so be it. I do my best to be helpful and informative, but do grow weary of the mindset of some people when it's obvious they are breeding for their own gratification, and not worried at all about the deformities they are passing on, nor even concerned about better quality.

Liz M.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 15, 2007)

Well said George. Sometimes I think there are a few that must have awfully sore arms from patting themselves on the back for how wonderful their horses are and what a great job they do with their program  I am sad to see that insted of being an educational thread it turned into a finger pointing snide remark thread. Odd how someone will imply that "they" just don't get it and all the while they themselves just aren't getting what they are doing to try and make themselves look superior. :no:Thanks for the courqge for speaking out. Mary


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## George (Sep 15, 2007)

I am not putting anyone down. What I am saying is there are many smart people here with great knowledge about mini horses and it's a shame that they lack the skills to communicate effectively with other members of the board. These people don't have to educate any of us if they don't want to but if they take on the task to educate us then they have to go about it the right way or no one learns, they become frustrated, we become frustrated and the learning stops.


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## nootka (Sep 15, 2007)

Noone is superior, not I, not you, not "they" or whomever's being referenced.

We've all made mistakes, we're all likely making mistakes, but learning from those mistakes is the difference.

To justify the mistakes again and again and continue to make the same ones is when one knows they're not moving forward.

We're all learning, but I fear that the reasons we stop learning is that old barn blindness/emotions getting in the way. These are animals with feelings themselves, that feel, and they deserve to be given the best start in life by not intentionally breeding defects and/or tragic deformities as well as avoiding breeding more with very little value overall into a market where people say they haven't enough hay, they can't get even a few hundred for an intact colt. It all goes hand in hand.

Liz M.


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## mydaddysjag (Sep 15, 2007)

Heres my solution.

Bring them all to PA.

I paid $75 + Vet call to have Midas gelded, and his wolf teeth were removed while he was out.


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## George (Sep 15, 2007)

I realize that this thread has gotten a little heated but that's the way some conversations go. I have found myself more than once running out to take a look at my colt because of this thread. I can't say that I am going to have him gelded in the near future but I'm not saying I won't either.

I think some of us prefer stallions for other reason's completely seperate from breeding. I spent years raising both stallions and mares at the same time and not once did I breed them. I could have but I saw no reason to breed them. I owned stallions because they are what I prefer and I owned mares and geldings to keep the stallions company. I didn't keep the mares with the stallions, I did keep them in sight. I never once had a problem with a stallion. I never had an unhappy stallion and the reason may be because I was willing to devote as much attention to them as needed.

I have flown all around the world with horses. Yes, it was a little hairy at times having stallions on planes with mares but I would walk from stallion to stallion talking to them to calm them down and never had any problems other than some snorting and foot stomping. Only one stallion ever really scared me and at the last minute I was pulled from that flight because they wanted me to take a gun to shoot him if he acted up and I refused and I got into a fight with the other handler who was going on the plane with me.. They ended up shooting the stallion because he got loose in the plane. I was really mad at the outcome because I had him all calmed down before he got on the plane but the other handler walked up and said, "You're being to nice to him, you want him to know who's the boss so you have to do this." He then puched the horse in the face as hard as he could. The horse totally went wild. The handler and I got into one heck of an argument over that. I was very relieved that I didn't go on that flight because it ended up being very bad. They tried to kill the stallion in flight by giving him an overdose of tranquilizer but that didn't work so they had to shoot him. For weeks I told my boss if they'd left the other handler out of it that stallion would have made it to Argentina alive. He was one huge-beautiful white stallion.

Some of us do like stallions for their spirit and not for breeding. Who knows, because of what I learn from these threads I may choose to geld my colt.


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## kaykay (Sep 15, 2007)

ive been really good and have not posted on this thread because i know from experience how its going to go (and yes thats where it went as usual)

thank you so much for your post george!! so well put

Please, if you believe your horse is top quality than be proud and share how you came about the results but don't insinuate openly that other members animals are (insert negative remarks here). Many of you do breed great looking horses (and have the right to brag) and you do have great knowledge; what you're lacking most is couth. Try and be just a little more respectful to all members regarding their horses. If you beleiev people should geld their stallions than explain why without mentioning the conformations of horses you've seen on the board. You might not like them but you can bet the people who take the time to post about their horses do and just maybe other's like their horses too whether they are show quality or not.


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## disneyhorse (Sep 15, 2007)

George... I am also one who loves stallions for their spirit, and do prefer a stallion to a mare or gelding. However, that stallion must be WORTH staying a stallion otherwise I geld it. If I choose to have a stallion around it MUST be the best quality I absolutely can find, otherwise it really IS more fair to the horse and future owners to have it gelded. Most stallions require good handlers to maintain their good mental states, particularly if not being bred. When poorly handled or neglected, they can turn sour and be labled "poor temperment." Stallions ARE stallions, never to be trusted and never to have as social/loving a life as a mare or gelding can have.

Yes, keep a stallion without breeding it because you love them... BUT make sure they are WORTH being a stallion!

Andrea


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## George (Sep 15, 2007)

Andrea, from what i can see, if Humble grows up to match your Tony I'll have a stallion to be proud of. Tony is beautiful!


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## Jean_B (Sep 15, 2007)

mininik said:


> Simply put, if the price of gelding is deterring people from breeding, please STOP BREEDING. Common sense says that when breeding you will either end up with a filly or colt. More likely than not, many of your colts (and fillies, too) will not be breeding material and should be gelded before being sold (or sold on a solid gelding contract). It goes without saying that not all fillies should go on to produce, either, but at least with colts we have the ability to permanently fix them before they contribute to the gene pool. If the market is such that you can only get about twice the price of gelding for an intact, gelding quality colt in your area, please STOP BREEDING if you are unwilling to make the investment to help protect your breed's future.



AMEN!! Will not get into any discussion of what makes a horse "stallion quality" because everyone has their own opinion on that....and it is simply that....an OPINION. There is no manual, there is no set of "rules", only opinions.

However, the cost of having a colt gelded should be built into EVERYONE'S budget no matter what the cost in a particular area. And if you get that breath-taking "Must Be Kept Intact" colt, more power to you, but at least EVERYONE should plan for the very distinct possibility that their colt might not fall into that category!! To not plan ahead financially is just poor farm and financial management.


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## disneyhorse (Sep 15, 2007)

Excellent point, Jean B!

I have no qualms about gelding colts around here. It's about $200. I've only ever bred two foals... one was gelded the other sold as a foal before I gelded it. Haven't had the luxury of a filly. Who knows if I'll ever breed again in the future, possibly another one or two foals... but would most definitely geld again.

Andrea


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2007)

Here and in person, I try to say what I think and it's because others I looked up to did this as well that I was able to grow as a horsewoman, and hope to learn and grow all the time. And, because I am me, and everyone can see my name and is a click away from being able to call me on the phone, I find it even more important to be honest and call it like I see it. I don't care if that makes me popular, or not. I do truly feel that the large number of poor quality minis being created every single year is the major problem facing our breed and so I'm outspoken.


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## George (Sep 16, 2007)

While it is very noble to say you're breeding to better the breed, the most you can really do is breed for what's hot today. Who knows what the standard of perfection will be next year, the year after or twenty years from now. If you're breeding to gain a lead then you may very well be taking yourself in the wrong direction. Also, you can only change the conformation so much before it starts interupting the natural conformation and comfort of the horse. I wonder, is the breeding more for eye candy for us humans or the well being of the horse? I also wonder how many of the guru's of breeding are covering all areas when it comes to breeding. It sounds as if the main, and sometimes only goal is fantastic conformation. There is a lot more to breeding horses than conformation. If your main goal is conformation alone then you-yourself are part of the problem. And if you say you are breeding for all qualities then don't just say you are, prove that you are.

It is one thing to think and a completely different thing to know what you're talking about. Make sure if you're offering advice that it covers the full spectrum and not just the one area that you are striving for. I read too many post about conformation and too few about the complete package. Is your attempt to breed a horse with perfect conformation breeding the hardiness right out of the breed?

If your stallions are wild and unmanageable then maybe that is what is being bred into them or you're not giving the stallion the attention it needs. It is an animal that needs more attention than being groomed to show everyone how pretty he is and how awesome his babies will be. If there are too many mini's born and not enough homes then even the top breeders need to adjust their own breeding program. Just because you have ten mares doesn't mean you need to breed them all. If you are having a hard time selling your horses at reasonable prices then maybe you're not breeding the top quality horses you think you are.

Sometimes those who point fingers at others as being the problem are actually just as much a part of the problem. You can bet that if you're selling your horses for a few thousand dollars that those selling for more and with better show records are saying that you're part of the problem.

The best advice I can give is to buy as many stallions as you want, have them gelded and then resell them; that way you have helped eliminate some of the problem.

You can be an expert in anything but if you lack people skills then the only person who'll ever appreciate your knowledge will be you.


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## MBennettp (Sep 16, 2007)

I also believe in gelding. I already have an appointment made to geld one of the 2 stallions on my farm.

I am a little different in the way that I think than most though, I believe that a horse not only should be able to place and win in a halter class (not necessarily be shown but have the conformation that they could) but also should have some athletic ability as well before it is used for breeding. I have seen some gorgeous halter horses that couldn't cut it if they had to do anything except halter.

Personally I like an all around horse that could not only be shown at halter but could be shown in other classes too. I want a horse that if I decide to drive him, he has the athletic ability and aptitude to do well with it or jumping or obstacle or whatever.

I would personally never breed a mare to a stallion just because he was a halter champion if the stallion was not also athletic enough to do other things.

Once again, I believe that a show record or bloodlines does NOT make the horse better than another. Some of us do not choose to show and that is our right. Some of us strongly believe in gelding but also love to keep a stallion even though we are not breeders. My stallion is pastured between a gelding and the mares and does wonderfully.

I am well known around here for gelding most everything that sets foot on the farm and my vet has more than once asked if I was sure I wanted a horse gelded before he would begin.

I love geldings, they are wonderful to work with and there is nothing better for a child or adult's first horse than a gelding.

Mary


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2007)

George (and everyone) --

My feeling is that good conformation is the foundation. What I know is that there are a lot of mini stallions out there with very poor conformation. Good conformation, disposition, type, and action are all criteria.

Agree or not, that's not in my control, but the reality is there are many people using stallions who are very poor examples of the breed simply because that's what they have. A lot of people choose to breed what they have on hand at the time, vs. trying to get the quality in place and then breed.

Do I think I have already got my breeding stock for now and for the next 20 years? NO. Part of what interests me is knowing it's a changing game and I am always looking for the opportunity to improve my stock.

The entire reason I did not start breeding minis years ago was because while I had some winning horses, I didn't think I had as good as I could get. I gelded some champion stallions which is a very emotional choice and one I contemplated for years. What I felt was that those horses were not as good as the ones I could have instead. So, changes were made.

There are a huge number of miniature people breeding stallions that should be geldings. Some of them have to know it, and others truly just see a neat color or a cute face, or "whatever". I'm trying to do what's right and trying to set an example by gelding some outstanding colts and stallions as well. I never knew of another breed where someone buys their first mini and a year later -- guess what? That person is now a horse breeder.

I'm honestly not sure if your comments are targetted at me or at others. My people skills have served me pretty well in horses and in business, though. My entire career is about taking good care of my clients. Additionally, I'm not usually one to get mad or hold a grudge because someone has spent a lot of time and come up with an opinion that is different than my own.

If I am particularly outspoken about geldings and stallions, it's only because I have a strong opinion and feel the pet quality x pet quality breeding is really dragging down the American Miniature Horse. So, really regardless of who does and does not appreciate my opinion, I am not sorry to have expressed it.

Jill


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## MBennettp (Sep 16, 2007)

What I stated was not directed at anyone. It is simply stating my feelings about what I personally like.

I am not a breeder, there have been 2 foals born on our farm in the last 30 years and both of them were from mares that were already bred when they arrived. I don't choose to breed because my herd is right where I want my numbers to be right now and if I did breed any of my mares, I would have another horse for life. I am not saying I never will breed one or more of my mares but it is a huge decision for me to make because once a horse sets foot on our farm, it has a home for life. If they are not what I personally like, I have several relatives that are always at my barn and always working with the horses. The horses are a family project and my nieces and nephews are wonderful with the horses.

I agree there are a lot of stallions out there that should be gelded and never bred. There are also a lot of mares that should never be bred but the cost of spaying is prohibitive.

Mary


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## disneyhorse (Sep 16, 2007)

Sorry, George...

Those minis being bred today MAY be a "hot fad" BUT (and this is assuming you are referring to the refined Shetland look) they do not just "blow over with a whisper" and are NOT "bred just for conformation."

Have you been to Nationals in the past five years, George? Have you SEEN these Shetland minis in the driving ring? In my opinion the driving class quality of motion has improved in LEAPS AND BOUNDS... the minis are not just bred for size any more, they DO have refined conformation (are now free of the short thick leg and giant head for the most part) and they can MOVE.

THe conformation being bred for, also is paired with more elegant movement. I remember when I first got into minis, it was more rare to find a mini that could pick up it's hocks and was anything more than a "dink dink" mover where now even the average horse can actually extend it's trot and hold it's head up naturally.

Breeders ARE breeding to improve the breed for the most part, whether or not it's the current "fad." As far as I have seen, the miniature breed is moving in the right direction, from concern about size to concern about conformation to concern about type and movement. That looks like a good thing to me!

Andrea


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## Shari (Sep 16, 2007)

I do not follow fashion...or what is "in"... never have in the 35 years I have played with, worked, trained and bred horses.

Am like George... I think like all other breeds..there are mini's that are being bred for whats hot.

But then again.. I tend to go my own way as I have said.

While the super high stepping, super refined leg is very flashy and pretty,, is not what I am interested in.

Those kind and yes..( I have been around them..even driven a couple)... are not what I look for in a horse..be it mini or other wise.

I like a Old type morgan or traditonal Canadian body type mini horse. Nice solid body and legs.A balanced horse. I drive and I need a horse with some nice solid bone. With where I drive... on the trails on my place. Those flashy super high stepping ..tiny ultra refined mini's couldn't handle it.

I see the same thing happening to the Icleandic's right now in Iceland and here. They are being super refined..so narrow body.. narrow/refined legs...super high action now over the level. See these horses in Vids and in person..they have so much action in their legs..that even the best riders in Iceland seem to be having problems keeping their backsides in the saddle even at a tolt. That is not right to change a horse so much. What use is flash and bling..in a horse that has been known for its super soft easy to ride gait.

But then I have this kind of thing happen to so many other breeds in the USA. :no:

I will not go on and bore folks..but if most really think about it. Did breeders really improve on all those other breeds? Arabs, Morgans, Haflingers......on and on.

But to each their own.

So back to the gelding...yes,, more people need to geld. But how to get the word out? This board is great but I have met many mini people that are not on it. I always give this web address out. The R & A magazines are pretty spendy to most and not suited to folks not following the crowd. Even me. Rather use the money on my animals.

If mini info can be written up in other main stream magazines...with a small article about how important it is to geld...would reach more people..and maybe...it would get some thinking about that colt they have.


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2007)

Well, I do think those who are breeding for "what's hot" are also breeding for correctness and have got it all over those breeding for what they could scrunge up. For every one person breeding for what some may see as a trend, there are 10 breeding pet quality x pet quality.


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## miniwhinny (Sep 16, 2007)

KanoasDestiny said:


> miniwhinny said:
> 
> 
> > I have a stallion "Ozymandias".
> ...


Yep he did. It's harder to see in his wooly winter coat...which to my sadness is already growing long wah, wah LOL. Next spring I'll get some nice shots of him to share. Thanks for the nice comment




:


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## TriggynBluenDaisy Too (Sep 16, 2007)

I saw my first mini over 35 years ago and they were tragic little things and nothing more than a novelty. Big heads and stumpy legs would have been was a vast improvement in itself back then. There have been HUGE strides in improving the breed since that time and that didn't come about as a result of the masses continuing to breed the same old lines and styles.

Unfortunatley minis are animals just about anyone can manage these days, like dogs, and the same tired breed em' if you got em' mentality persists. Peer pressure can be one of the most effective ways of moving towards real change so while you may not like the message don't shoot the messenger. Only until someone questions what you are doing, do you think to question yourself--especially if that is coming from those who are actutally deeply involved with the industry and will continue to be there long after those who have contributed their share of poor quality horses to the gene pool have long since lost interest and moved on.

There is nothing wrong with a nice family, less-than-conformationally-perfect pet who will give their owners years of pleasure --although there are TOO FEW of those kind of homes so a horse needs to have more than just "cute" going for it. Even the most astute breeders are going to end up with some clinkers so it's doubtful the pet market will ever collapse. The problem lies with those who think those pets should reproduce and when they don't get a decent price for them, if they can unload them at all, stubbornly continue to breed more.

Everyone loves their mins, I know I do, but they had a date with the scapel in their futures no matter what. They were sold under the premise of being "correct" and good enough to be future herd sires  but that is not why I bought them. Thank God for them and the rest of minidom I didn't decide they had any chance at all to better the breed.


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## Vertical Limit (Sep 16, 2007)

Please everyone......we all know that topics like this get very heated but PLEASE do not attack anyone personally. There is a big difference between stating one's opinion (however you might like it or not) and calling out any one person. State your opinion but please do not single out anyone in particular.

Thanks, Carol


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## Katiean (Sep 16, 2007)

It really cracks me up that the very people that are screaming "STOP BREEDING" are the ones that have foals due next year. I did not breed for next year. I am hoping the economy takes an upturn so I can breed. I am not going to breed a mare to only get grade prices out of it. If I choose to sell a foal I want it to go for at least what I paid for mine. Right now nicely bred horses in my area are going for less than $1,000 (well less). There are not even a lot of minis in my area for sale. People here don't want to spend $18 for a bale of hay to feed a pet. They are feeding their families instead. The problem here is Nevada has the highest foreclosure rate in the nation or maybe we are second. Anyway that is why I don't breed. As for gelding I am not paying $350 to geld a colt and then get $350 for him because I do not have a web site and the prices just aren't there in Nevada. If "YOU" want to help the problem of so many colts then "STOP BREEDING" don't tell everyone to geld!


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## Marty (Sep 16, 2007)

Just some thoughts:

I think it would help a lot of people including me if there were more local miniature rated shows.

One reason I do not show is that rated miniature shows in my state are only 2 a year and way far out of my area; and they are mighty costly to attend.

In big horses back home, I could find a show practically every week within an hour or less of me and it was always affordable. Just a one day show where you could show out of your trailer and it was easy. You were always there to see who's winning and why. You could gain a ton of knowledge from just attending and keeping your eyes and ears open. By doing this, you'd see the changes are and acceptable standards and you could go home and work on that and you knew just what had to be done to stay at the top of your game.

I like to go to a show and keep a low profile, find a corner and sit and watch quietly and learn. I'd come home and say "I definitely have to do something about this or that" and tweak my modest little program accordingly. But, by the time I get there, it would be time to head back home. LB helps pick up that slack a lot for us stay at homers to see via cyberspace what is going on. The websites are also a wonderful guide to study up and learn. But if there were more local mini shows that would be rated, with real miniature judges, that would be a great place to see how many horses would measure up against others; a wonderful starting point for many to realize what is good and what is not so good in their overall program. But I for one am not traveling all over the place in this state and staying away from home all weekend and have to drop a mortgage payment and having it cost me the whole farm either. There were a few attempts to form clubs and hold shows around here in the past that always fell through. Sigh. Back in my box now. Have a great day everyone.


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## minimomNC (Sep 16, 2007)

Marty, I agree completely with what you are saying about more local shows. AMHA and AMHR will approve one day shows. They will approve performance only shows. Classes do not have to be split for every height. You can have yearling stallions, 2 year old stallions, yearling mares etc... they don't have to be split. You can do a show with as few classes as possible. Awards do not have to be silver trophies. Get vendors involved like ECMHC and MAMHC (I think thats the right one) have done. Make your own "ribbons" by handmaking coupons the vendor will accept. Get donated prizes for grands and reserves, supremes, whatever. But a one day doesn't have to cost a fortune. Hire new judges, they need the experience too. Do only one judge. Sure you only get one set of points but with more people showing the points will still add up if the costs are down. Get facilities donated for a day for advertising, have someone come and do food just for them to make some money. Whatever it takes to do, do it. It can be done. As long as you aren't doing it to make a profit, to just break even, then the entry fees won't have to be as high either. It will work.

If your area isn't big on halter, do performance only. I think you can even do amateur/youth only. It only takes one person to get it started.

I know this has nothing to do with a gelding thread, but if people have more places to show those geldings people will bring them. Every point an AMHA Gelding earns can go toward money prizes in the Ultimate Gelding Award Program. There is money in geldings, you just have to do something to make it happen, not just sit around and talk about it.


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## nootka (Sep 16, 2007)

I don't understand why anyone says there are so many patting themselves on the back.

There are very FEW with that smug type of attitude, and the ones that are, are really not looking closely at their herd themselves.

I would NEVER rest on my laurels nor pat myself on the back, because I can always do better!

The BEST COLT I have produced to date (My opinion) is running around my pastures as a gelding, and even though I had much protest to keep him intact, he still could be better. He is not perfect, and there are stallions as nice as or better than him out there. There are mares and geldings that I will say the same of.

I am and have been looking for one new mare to add to my herd, but I am trying to be so careful that I have not really found what I need/want to truly do "better" and be able to afford her. So I wait...

NO, my horses are not perfect, and most of the breedings I undertake do not come close to as nice as I hope for, but some of them approach it, and most times, the foals are BETTER than the parent(s).

I am not breeding for what's hot, first and foremost.

I don't care what is winning, if the choices I'm making are what I feel is risky (say both parents had cow hocks, or turned out toes in the front, though that type was winning in the ring, or their color was catchy), I won't do it.

I also choose to hold off breeding until I'm sure I know I can sell or am going to keep the foals of this year. I have ONE foal MAYBE due for next year. I have the room to hang onto them indefinitely.

I am planning on breeding one mare next year at this point. If I do not sell any horses in the next 6 months to one year, I will not be breeding anyone until I do. Just part of the big picture.

If I owned a really nice stallion, I would make it part of the stud fee/agreement to geld unless we both agreed and/or refund some of the stud fee if they did, etc. etc. as a deposit.

All of that aside, I am no snob, I am not patting myself on the back, pointing fingers or trying to hold myself up as an example except for the fact that I think my policy on gelding is something others might consider in any form for their own "program" if they can at all manage it (that is to consider everything male a gelding unless there is a very exceptional reason not to, and no, bright color is NOT it).

Too many people start right out with a stallion, and often he's purchased before he's even 6 months old. To me, that's convoluted thinking, and I hope that any new owners or even ones that have had them a while would reconsider and take their time to do their research. Yes, it happens that many of us buy a "prospect" at that age, but sometimes, something will end up letting him out of that "job", and we are out the investment. So much can happen (just ask me and I'll tell you, it's happened to me), and we are all learning. I have SO MUCH to learn in every aspect of this industry: showing, breeding, training, etc.

I am in no way closed-minded nor think that I have anything perfect.

I have, however, come a LONG WAY in my understanding of why certain horses are winners, why they look nicer to educated eyes, and why they stay sound, etc. etc. and so I understand more about choosing good breedings.

I have at some time or other, put up every single one of my horses on this board for critique (I think Gramma Pony's the only one I left out, but even she's up for critique if one wanted to) as I am always looking to see what others see and think, to get outside my own thought process. If someone has a concern, I'd love to hear about it.

No, I do not have any National or World titles, but I will say I have a few local ones, and do pretty "ok" at the shows. The horses I breed are sound little ones, and the ones that are unsuitable for breeding, I do my part to remove them from that equation.

(the above is not a patting self on back thing, it is trying to illustrate the efforts that most breeders should go to when they first endeavor to breed, but that's just my opinion. Certainly I am no authority, just trying to help others see the big picture. It isn't about selling every little weaned fluffball just off their mother, it can be a years-long commitment to sell a foal one has produced, ask anyone that's been in it a while)

Liz M.


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## minimomNC (Sep 16, 2007)

I have to say, Nootka has one of the best geldings i have ever seen, I told her that before. Pyro is one horse I would have on our show string in a second. Thats what breeding is about. Having babies that people other than yourself, would love to own.

Now as for me personally, I have two foals due next year. My first foals in 4 years. One had been planned for two years. The mare is a Res. World Champion and the stallion is a Res World Grand Champion. I know that doesn't guarantee a show baby but my odds are better with proven horses. And the stallion has already sired a World Champion and Reserve World Champion in just three crops.

I have gelded more horses in the last 4 years than I have raised. And I can tell you honestly, there isn't a whole lot of stallions that I couldn't take a knife to. Wouldn't bother me abit. There is always another one up and coming to take its place. What's hot this year might not be next year so it really doesn't matter what is gelded to me.

There are alot of pictures posted of stallions these days that I wouldn't even have as a gelding. Someone said in one post why is it a good stallion would make a great gelding. Well thats not the case anymore. It better be one heck of a stallion if you want to compete with the geldings now.

So the problem with to many stallions out there breeding isn't going to stop just because a thread on LB said they should. A person needs to look at their program and see just many people are beating their doors down for their babies. If the answer is none, maybe that should be your first clue.


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## mininik (Sep 16, 2007)

Wow, 10 pages. Have any colts been gelded over this yet?



:


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## horseheart (Sep 16, 2007)

Thanks for the link. I was coming here to ask a gelding question-- know I now. Wish I would have seen it sooner.

Robin


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## Vertical Limit (Sep 16, 2007)

mininik said:


> Wow, 10 pages. Have any colts been gelded over this yet?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Just a little humor............ :lol: But if this thread touches one person then it has been worth it.


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## mininik (Sep 16, 2007)

Ooo, you're bad, Carol! So bad and SO RIGHT. :stupid:


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## Katiean (Sep 16, 2007)

I had 1 colt this year and yes, I had someone try to buy him. They came to me. I am not selling. So for people beating down my door, It happens and yes to me. I don't have anything due for next year and may not breed for the next. But, I have had offers.


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## Jill (Sep 16, 2007)

Carol, I don't want to hurt your feelings, but I think those three really should be gelded :bgrin


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## susanne (Sep 16, 2007)

For those who hate my opinions, be forewarned...you can skip right over this post...

I am SOOOO sick and tired of this g.d., All-American, I got-a-right-to-breed-and-ain't-nobody-gonna-stop-me mentality!

I'm also sick of the "too refined to be good for anything" myth...It goes hand-in-hand with the "too much Shetland influence in miniature horses" myth.

As for the "poor marketing" suggestion...these are EXACTLY the people I would buy from. Give me those who are brave enough to offer their brutally honest opinion over the nicey-nice, oh, "he's so beautiful, you should never geld him" butt-ki$$ing folks any day. Thhe honest few may hurt my feelings momentarily, but they are the ones I would trust to be honest about the horses they sell.

Give me the registries that have Keurings and limit the horses that are allowed to breed -- or, to be more precise, that limit what horses' offspring are allowed to be registered. Of course, by the good ole "don't tread on me" attitude, that sounds a bit socialist...even downright Commie!!! Ooooohhh, how scarey!

Dangit -- I'm a friggin' American!! I'll breed my lug-headed stallion with stubby legs (but hey -- he's under 30 inches!!!) to my sweet mare with minimal dwarf features (I think her bulging forehead makes her look like an Arab) if I want to, and ain't nobody gonna stop me!

How in the world is breeding for good conformation wrong???????? A fad??? Give me a break!

And sorry -- those that deserve to be left intact have to have IT ALL -- great personality, good enough looks for halter class AND performance capabilities. And trust me, having spent time around Nootka's horses, they have all of that...AND they are gelded.

As for knowing whom to disregard, I'm sorry, but right from the start you would be cutting off your nose to spite your face by disregarding some of the most knowledgeable, most helpful folks on this forum.

Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best. I say this as a starving artist who cannot possibly afford a stallion that I would keep intact. Thus, my boys are geldings, with one gelding-to-be.

Sorry to vent, but this is one reason other breeds and people like the "Fugly Horse" blogsite go off on miniature horse owners. OF COURSE you love your horse...that doesn't mean they have to reproduce! OF COURSE a horse that won't win a halter class is just as lovable, and that gorgeous, unmanagable stallion is beautiful to watch from your living room window, but minis are overbred, and far too many end up at auctions or sadly neglected and abused...

Are you really so selfish as to say that your right to breed your horse supercedes the right of every animal born to lead a healthy, happy life?

Sorry, but it's not about you!


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## disneyhorse (Sep 16, 2007)

Okay Susanne... that's a good point. I have always felt you should breed the best you can afford. But I guess if you CAN'T afford a Nationals-level stallion then sure, you shouldn't breed. But breeding is so expensive to begin with that I ASSUME most people would have that common sense. But of course they don't, always.

Andrea


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## George (Sep 16, 2007)

From one American to another, WOW! That was a little overboard.

People are debating here and having a mild argument, not throwing a temper tantrum. care to join in?


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## George (Sep 16, 2007)

disneyhorse said:


> Sorry, George...
> 
> Those minis being bred today MAY be a "hot fad" BUT (and this is assuming you are referring to the refined Shetland look) they do not just "blow over with a whisper" and are NOT "bred just for conformation."
> 
> ...


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## Minimor (Sep 16, 2007)

> Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best.


Part of the issue here though is this question: "the best" by whose standards? There are those here that are convinced they have the best, far superior to anyone else's horses. I can say without a doubt that somewhere there is someone who would disagree that those people have the best--they would say that they don't like those horses at all, for whatever reason. Some believe that Nationals quality is the only quality worth having, yet the one day when I was talking to someone on the phone I was about to comment on a horse that was on the cover of a past issue of a magazine, & say isn't he lovely, only she beat me to it--by saying 'did you see that horse on the magazine? I don't like that at all!" I'd have said that the horse in question was one that many would aspire to having, but obviously not everyone does. She is raising a different type of horse and can't see anything wrong with it.

This same person visited a farm recently & commented that there was only one horse there that was any good. I'm in the process of writing a letter to her, and questioned her on two other horses that the farm did own, asking if those two horses were still there and pointing out that in my view those two horses were the only two from that farm that were worth having. Obviously we are in total disagreement over what is worth having--the two I mentioned are the better horses conformation wise & movement wise, but I would never convince her of that! :bgrin

Many feel the Shetland type is the way to go & personally I don't argue with that, I feel the Shetlands have much to offer the Mini breed--nothing to do with fads, just conformation & movement wise, Minis are lacking in some respects & the Shetlands can add a lot in those areas. Some, though, absolutely refuse to have a Shetland on the place, no matter how much Shetland there is already in Miniatures. Some want taller, some want smaller, some want longer necks, some don't want longer necks because they feel they are too long & snakey. The person that wants to raise horses for CDE may want a horse with a little more substance and bigger gaits, and the horse may not have the exact conformation that is winning in the show ring. Theoretically, if you are raising the most talented, athletic horses in the country, is it really wrong if they don't have quite the tabletop croup of a Nationals halter contender? That they couldn't go to Nationals & bring home a championship? Such a breeder might argue that if a National Champion can't go out & win a CDE, they shouldn't be breeding.

Inspections and 100 days tests are the best way to weed out horses that are sub-standard, but those inspections should include tests of the horse's performance ability as well--horses that can't move or perform shouldn't get accepted no matter how gorgeous they look when posed on the line, and the good movers and athletic performers must of course have good sound conformation--though that good sound conformation may not always be exactly what some think of as "nationals quality".

And inspections would not stop indiscriminate breeding, it would just put restrictions on which animals could be registered. The unregistered pet breeders would still be flourishing. After all, the Hanoverian (and other warmblood breed) inspections haven't stopped people from crossing their TB's on their draft horses. Locally there's a pretty good market for these crosses, just because many people around here cannot afford to go & buy a registered Oldenberg or Dutch Warmblood.

The focus needs to be on more geldings in the breed, not in pointing fingers and deciding whose stallion should or should not be breeding. There are all sorts of breeders that need to geld more horses, and when I say that I'm talking about gelding the foals they raise, not making any comment on their actual herdsire(s). And the need to geld more foals applies to all sorts of breeders--big name ones, small time ones, breeders of high quality animals, breeders of lesser quality animals--keep your herdsires, but geld their offspring. More geldings = fewer stallions; fewer stallions should = higher prices on stallions, and higher stallion prices will surely push up the demand for geldings. Higher demand = higher prices.

I know a big horse breeder that used to breed only her own mares with her stallion. She had a good horse, and his foals were in demand. She had many requests to breed outside mares and could have collected a lot of money in stud fees. She would not do it. Her philosophy was, if you wanted a foal by her stallion you had to come to her to buy one, you couldn't breed your own. And, when it came to sales, if she sold a colt as a stallion prospect, that colt had to be a darned good one. Also, she would not sell an intact colt locally--she might let one go across the country, but she would not sell one locally. Why not? Because if she sold one locally that could affect her local market. It's a strategy that could benefit Mini breeders. A lot.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Sep 16, 2007)

Hellooooo folks we are back to square 1.

We can go round and round and round but bottom line is what is a Nationals level stallion? What is the best that you are waiting to afford?

I know of quite a few on here that have stallions they didnt spend alot of money on does that mean they are not the best? I know quite a few that have never been to nationals with there stallion but they feel it is good in fact Nationals quality so that makes it the best?

i have seen stallions win at Nationals that I wouldnt own as competitive geldings so does that make them the best?

I see horses posted on here that are touted with wonderful show records and as being the best of the best bred by the best blah blah blah and I can look at them and instantly see faults such as weak hips, over at the knees ect.. does that make me horrible? or them having the best?

I am sure I have horses that others feel the same way about if it were very black and white.. there would be no need to have more then one judge at a show as all placings would be the same. Even at the National level all you have to do is look at the judges cards and you can see it is purely subjective..

I have seen national champions who were placed 1 by the call judge maybe 5th by 2nd judge and not on the card for 3rd judge. (these numbers may not be exact but you get the idea)

the best is subjective period I hear about everyones ethics and programs and how what they are doing is better then so and so. Bottom line all we can do is be willing to continue to learn, be totally honest with ourselves on what we have learned and what we have out in our barns and do what we feel is right for our horses and ourselves. We cant police what others do,we can suggest when asked and do what we feel is right for ourselves.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 16, 2007)

:aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: I love it when someone puts into words many of my own thoughts. It is true that not everyone wants the influence of the modern Shetland in their breeding program ....I have several reasons for not wanting it but if someone else does then that is their perogative. There is room for both!

For the person who couldn't understand what they were reading about the patting on the back stuff I ask that you reread what was said because it did not say "many" it said "few". Lots of difference when something is read as it is wrote. And it was just an opinion, as all the things said here are. There were other things that seemed to be misread also but I am not going into all that, just want to remind this person that it is necessary to read things carefully and to understand that opinions are what is given by all on this forum. some of them we agree with and others we don't. Thanks for understanding. Mary



Minimor said:


> > Too many people subscribe to the notion of "breed the best you can afford." The attitude should instead be, don't breed until you can afford the best.
> 
> 
> Part of the issue here though is this question: "the best" by whose standards? There are those here that are convinced they have the best, far superior to anyone else's horses. I can say without a doubt that somewhere there is someone who would disagree that those people have the best--they would say that they don't like those horses at all, for whatever reason. Some believe that Nationals quality is the only quality worth having, yet the one day when I was talking to someone on the phone I was about to comment on a horse that was on the cover of a past issue of a magazine, & say isn't he lovely, only she beat me to it--by saying 'did you see that horse on the magazine? I don't like that at all!" I'd have said that the horse in question was one that many would aspire to having, but obviously not everyone does. She is raising a different type of horse and can't see anything wrong with it.
> ...


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## nootka (Sep 16, 2007)

To me, it is not arbitrary, the "basics" and that is what I see people ignoring:

DO NOT breed those dwarfs (they may be "minimal" but that's what they are, it's like being a little bit pregnant, ain't no such thing), and do not breed those with heritable defects that directly affect soundness. Avoid the truly bad-tempered, or poor-minded horse, and go from there with your (insert "fad look here") overo, pinto, appaloosa, blue-eyed, buckskin, falabella, under 28", over 34", Arenosa, etc. etc. ad nauseum.

I don't even say this because this is MY particular way of thinking, I am ONLY saying it because there are live animals being affected by what WE all do.

When you undertake a business, you must have a bit of a thick skin to begin with, because sooner or later, somewhere, you will overhear someone criticizing something you have sold or have for sale. It isn't easy, but it can be a learning experience. Sometimes they have valid concerns. Other times, it is merely a matter of opinion. Have the brains to know which is which, and keep your emotions out of it.

These are not human children, so for someone to say, "oh, he has such crooked little ugly legs" does not carry the same implication. Your children are not born for the sole reason of working and/or breeding. Many Miniatures ARE!

To look the other way in the guise of love or anything less than what's best for the animals' welfare is just poor business practices. Look at how we got here (with the market flooded and can't give away decent quality colts or geldings)....ten to twenty years ago, it was the norm to run the numbers (this was my first bit of advice from not just one but several breeders, just breed any and everything).

We won't get anywhere different unless we all change our tunes.

So, I've enjoyed this discussion thoroughly....really I have, though it has me gritting my teeth now and then for the stubbornness some people throw up in the guise of "us vs. them" it is "us vs. us" and that's not really reasonable.

If I never have another horse for sale, if I got out of it entirely, I would still want to think that people were making better breeding choices and truly culling out those that are not suitable to be bred, taking their time to make purchases instead of coming home with an adorable little auction rescue and then deciding to breed them just because. I want to see these horses truly LOOK like little QH, little Arabian, etc. in the future, but that's not all that realistic if we lose our focus and quit paying attention to such things as proportion and correct conformation.

If anyone were interested, I have a photographic history of where I"ve been with my herd and my breeding decisions, and they could tell me have I been successful or not in moving forward. I want my horses to "do" and "look" beautiful, and I want them to be easily managed as a healthy horse w/a minimum of care instead of having to have frequent hoof and dental visits just because they have a leg turned here, or an off bite, etc. I want them to not have to have surgery to be sound, nor have to be fed special diets. I am NOT breeding the hardiness out of my animals to chase a fad.

My two geldings are "built" and while they have their shortcomings, they should remain sound and healthy given the parents as well as their own conformation.

There's no money in producing inferior animals, there just isn't. Cheater types aside, who don't put the right care and attention to their animals, I just don't see where those that are only able to get $500 per foal are MAKING a thing.

I'm glad everyone's hanging in and reading, even if they have gotten upset at some misunderstood sleight. I have not intended any offense to anyone...you should see what my "herd" looked like at one time.



:

I am very proud of mine, now, though I have ideas on ways to improve that.

Liz M.


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## nightflight (Sep 16, 2007)

So....

Setting aside the discussion of who has the best balls for the moment...

I was reading that there are a number of people who feel that the cost of gelding is preventing them and others for gelding as many horses as they would like to. I think on page one or two there is a program that my club uses to help people with just that issue. If anyone would like to put a program like that to work in their area I would be glad to help. It's going to take....

1) Some brainstorming and a donated day to put on a fundraiser.

2) Some time on the phone to find out how big your incentives should be and to find vets who will offer reduced rates if you can get groups together.

3) Some time talking to the board of your club to sell them on the program.

If you feel that strongly about encouraging geldings donate a few days of your time to make it affordable. It doesn't matter who uses the program as long as it gets used. It's for the breed, not the breeders.

Regards,


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## Minimor (Sep 16, 2007)

You're right Liz, people--breeders--should never skimp on good, sound conformation, even if the size/type/conformation isn't what is currently "Nationals quality". Sadly, sometimes it isn't really the fault of the breeder if they are breeding a minimal dwarf and don't even know it.

Certainly anyone just getting into the breed--or just getting into horses--should learn all they can about conformation and how conformation affects health and soundness before they jump into breeding. But sometimes those new people put their faith in the wrong person--they go to a breeder that they figure is a big name, reputable breeder, and they ask all the right questions, but get all the wrong answers. The breeder convinces them that the minimal dwarf he/she has for sale is a worthy breeding animal--look at the fancy pedigree, the small size, the pretty color, all the trophies and titles the sire has won, the high price tag--buy this horse and you'll be in business, you won't go wrong because you can show this horse and learn with him & then you can breed with him later. The buyer goes away with an overpriced little horse thinking they really have something.

It can be a bitter pill to swallow when that buyer finally realizes how badly he/she got took. They believed the word of someone that sounded knowledgeable and acted oh so helpful and they paid a high price (you get what you pay for, right? How many times have we heard that on here?? Low price must mean there is something wrong with the horse, some have said they won't even look at a low priced horse. Relatively then, a high price must guarantee quality?) and then they start noticing that their little horse doesn't look the same as the other little horses they see at the shows winning the ribbons.

I don't think a lot of people are actually "ignoring" bad conformation. I think a lot of them just don't know any better. They do not understand form to function, and how conformation flaws can lead to unsoundnesses. I'm not sure that not knowing is any better than ignoring, but at least it is something that some gentle education might help.


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## George (Sep 16, 2007)

:aktion033:



Minimor said:


> You're right Liz, people--breeders--should never skimp on good, sound conformation, even if the size/type/conformation isn't what is currently "Nationals quality". Sadly, sometimes it isn't really the fault of the breeder if they are breeding a minimal dwarf and don't even know it.
> 
> Certainly anyone just getting into the breed--or just getting into horses--should learn all they can about conformation and how conformation affects health and soundness before they jump into breeding. But sometimes those new people put their faith in the wrong person--they go to a breeder that they figure is a big name, reputable breeder, and they ask all the right questions, but get all the wrong answers. The breeder convinces them that the minimal dwarf he/she has for sale is a worthy breeding animal--look at the fancy pedigree, the small size, the pretty color, all the trophies and titles the sire has won, the high price tag--buy this horse and you'll be in business, you won't go wrong because you can show this horse and learn with him & then you can breed with him later. The buyer goes away with an overpriced little horse thinking they really have something.
> 
> ...


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## nightflight (Sep 16, 2007)

On that breeding for the $500 foals...

I wish I had enough money to take that kind of loss on every foal! I couldn't afford it.


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## shoeboxstables (Sep 16, 2007)

Well this thread has definatly made me consider gelding my stallion. Looking at my present situation- it's just logical. Thank you for posting this! It may lead to some good after all.


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## PaintNminis (Sep 17, 2007)

Great!!!

I gelded 2 Stallions in 05

and they were great


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## kaykay (Sep 17, 2007)

In a nutshell the only person i can truly control is myself and what I do. So I geld ruthlessly and I constantly promote what great horses geldings are to every person that comes to my farm. I always encourage anyone new to horses to buy a gelding first even if I dont have one for sale. I have only been breeding for 6 years but I have never sold an intact stallion with my farm name. To me its a quest. When I do breed one great enough to stay a stallion he will probably stay here



Some of our recent geldings

Baxters Hot N Dandy gelding






Baxters Code Red






And because I sold all mine i bought and gelded one for my son and i to have fun with

buckeye wfc classical notice aka jet he has already paid back his purchase price in winnings


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## miniwhinny (Sep 17, 2007)

kaykay said:


> In a nutshell the only person i can truly control is myself and what I do. So I geld ruthlessly and I constantly promote what great horses geldings are to every person that comes to my farm. I always encourage anyone new to horses to buy a gelding first even if I dont have one for sale. I have only been breeding for 6 years but I have never sold an intact stallion with my farm name. To me its a quest. When I do breed one great enough to stay a stallion he will probably stay here
> 
> 
> 
> Some of our recent geldings


THANK YOU :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033: YOU are the solution. A breeder who gelds. Slinging mud at other peoples stallions isnt the answer (and its just not very nice) It's the breeders who will make a difference. Breeders need to stop labeling every colt as "herd sire" material and geld. Well done :aktion033: :aktion033: :aktion033:


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## Jill (Sep 17, 2007)

Being proud of and showing off your geldings IS the right thing to do. A lot of us have said this over and over (and over and over).

Each of the horses on my geldings page were gelded by me with two exceptions -- one who already was a gelding when he came, and one who hasn't yet been gelded (3.5mos old and not at home yet). *My Geldings, My Favorite Horses*...

My geldings include a BTU son, a multi champion as a stallion (when I showed him, my first ever show horse), a national top ten as a colt / multi national champion as a geldig, a colt born here who's a multi champion gelding, my first mini, etc. Not listed on my site, as I no longer own them, are a gorgeous leopard gelding and a beautiful bay roan champion driving and halter stallion (both gelded "here"). My vet, who does know I love geldings and is happy to help out, has joked "are you SURE you want this one gelded?" Never met a horse who was too good to be a gelding. Just like I never met a horse too good to be a pet (pretty important job in my book). Some of my nicest horses, physically, are my geldings




:

Really, I doubt anyone who's actually owned a mini gelding has any doubt about their worth



: They are the BEST. If you want to show, if you want to drive, if you want a pet... GELDINGS are what's happening



:


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## GREENWOODMINIS (Sep 17, 2007)

:aktion033: SPOT ON GEORGE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


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## Shari (Sep 17, 2007)

Jill said:


> Well, I do think those who are breeding for "what's hot" are also breeding for correctness and have got it all over those breeding for what they could scrunge up. For every one person breeding for what some may see as a trend, there are 10 breeding pet quality x pet quality.


From what I have seen...that is not always the case. I have seen National Champions that I would not touch with a 10 foot pole....and others...in someones back yard...just being Driven...that would knock ones socks off.

All the people I have met in person in NW OR... are very picky about what they breed, as I am. Only have foals every once in awhile. Just because some do not go to the Nationals or breed for what is in right now...doesn't mean they do not have outstanding animals.

My own case...as that is all I can talk about. I have a very nice Jenny...but I just will not breed her to any old Jack. There are a couple of Jacks at stud...but they should be geldings. They would not improve anything on my Jenny. And yes.. my Jenny is nice. So I did not breed her this year.

Only equine on my place that is bred is out of the prized Stallion Orri... she is Royally bred Icelandic mare. I had her bred to a 1st Prize Stallion. She just sold....but she and the stallion where high enough quality to put a foal on the ground next year.

It is just silly to say..anyone not going to the Nationals..or not breeding what is hot...are just scrounging.

Sigh~~

It takes all types..(and I am not talking about Dwarf's, over or under bites, over at the knees, ewe neck or just very poor conformation.)

What one body type my suit one person...another would call junk. That is not the case. Just because one likes... the super refined .... doesn't mean the say.. Morgan types are junk. One is not better than the other.

What I would like to see in Mini's...and it would take a lot of effort. Is the Icelandic Evals... there is not near as many Icelandics in the US as their are minis. But Miniature horse Evals. There is a conformation section and one for riding. Of course minis for the most part could not do the riding..but something in hand or in cart would be do-able. Once the Evals are done...scores on conformation and riding..in the Icelandic Evals are given. This goes in the Central data base for all to see...is called Worldfengur.

Something like that could be set up for the minis.

I am not barn blind about my animals..any of them. Anyone that knows me well.. knows I can pick them apart like no other. I know what I have.

But I will not... unless there are some bad faults... tell someone that their horse is junk...just because I like a different type. And I think most of what I have read...is people saying one type is better than another. That it not the case.....it is more on the lines what the humans like or don't like and their need to shout it to the world.

It is easier to teach or show someone with kindness.... that something needs to be improved....

Than doing what many do making others feel bad.

I have only once in all of my years seen one mare that I thought..along with many others that was shear prefection in conformation and movement. Was an Andaulsian mare. She was poetry in motion.

But found out...she has the most nasty hard to deal with temperament.....gads..she was scary and no it was not the handler/trainer that cause it. She was like that from birth. To me...while she was an outstanding horse in conformation... she was not breeding qualtiy. The folks that owned her thought different. The two colts she had were so unmanagable...agressive...handled by one of the best trainers I had the pleasure to meet... they ended up putting both of the colts down after someone was hurt very badly.

There is no perfect horse out there... not National..not backyard...and not all backyards are junk.

To me...backyard means.. you breed your animals.. right out your back door...and most do..no matter how big the place.

I am not pointing fingers at anyone. Just talking in general about what I have seen and what has always been important to me. As I have said many times..that is all I can do.

I find it important to geld in any breed of horse....those who do, are what I call hero's!



:

Also many have already said...

~Gelding parties.. ... many Vets will cut the price if they get a number of mini colts or other breeds together in one place.

~Gentle nudges work more often, than in ones face or rudness....to help others to geld.

~Learn as much as you can about all types of mini's...learn what is best to geld or to keep whole.

~Those that have the gift of writting...which is not me... brain storm with your peers ..and write articles about how important it is to geld. Also send Articles about minis and the importance in gelding for the breed, into the main stream magazines where it will reach more readers.. But don'e base it on type...base it on all conformation flaws that show up no matter the type.

This is the last I will even say about this. Gelding is an important matter...no matter the fad, type, whats hot or not, to any one person.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 17, 2007)

Well Shari I, and I am sure others think you have done a wonderful job of writing and you do a wonderful job of being an advocate for gelding because of the way you put things. I think all who want to become or are advocates for gelding might make this their motto and keep it posted!



:

"~Gelding parties.. ... many Vets will cut the price if they get a number of mini colts or other breeds together in one place.

~Gentle nudges work more often, than in ones face or rudness....to help others to geld.

~Learn as much as you can about all types of mini's...learn what is best to geld or to keep whole.

~Those that have the gift of writting...which is not me... brain storm with your peers ..and write articles about how important it is to geld. Also send Articles about minis and the importance in gelding for the breed, into the main stream magazines where it will reach more readers.. But don'e base it on type...base it on all conformation flaws that show up no matter the type."

I do want to add, for all of those who think there are too many colts being born, don't breed the mare that possible could have a colt and then it won't be a concern for anyone.



: Mary



Shari said:


> Jill said:
> 
> 
> > Well, I do think those who are breeding for "what's hot" are also breeding for correctness and have got it all over those breeding for what they could scrunge up. For every one person breeding for what some may see as a trend, there are 10 breeding pet quality x pet quality.
> ...


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## nootka (Sep 17, 2007)

To me, gelding has never been about type.

Too many people confuse type with poor conformation.

A quality and well-proportioned QH (full size) is still a sound horse.

Too often I see people within the mini world trying to pass off their horse as "qh type" when it is clearly a short-legged, very thick-boned, short-necked (set low) and goose-rumped horse.

There is also the "draft" type that is often used to explain a mini who has the almost a dwarf look (which really IS a dwarf if you're honest and understand how it works) as in thick, short legs and long body with a large head and thick, short neck.

The "Arabian" type is what people tend to use to describe the more refined looking horse with a flatter topline, though it can go horribly wrong when the "dish" is misconstrued. The horse on my place with the dishiest face is nowhere near the same in looks as a true Arabian. HOWEVER, his dish is low, between his eyes and nostrils, NOT up between his eyes pushing the bulge up near his ears.

I could illustrate the difference fairly clearly here (for educational purposes) both horses are similar in age in the photos, which is five months:









This is my "dwarf" filly, that many said was not, but to me, she had too many features of a dwarf, the worst of which was a full-tooth off underbite, tooth crowding, a high dome, very thick bone for her height of 30" and overall proportion issues. Look how highly placed her dome is, or bulge. It is much more extreme though she is smaller, and the inside of her mouth reflected her conformation.

In addition, her nostril placement is too high and set too close together. It should have been less extreme by this age.

These all may be "subjective" and I NEARLY had this filly sold for $4000, but I'm so glad I hung onto her. I ended up selling her as a pet only for $500. Her underbite alone dictated this decision, but coupled with the other characteristics, it said dwarf to me.









Here you can see that this colt's dish is less extreme, but still present. The nostril placement is normal. Also, he does not have the underbite (nor over), and his teeth have normal spacing. The filly above's wolf teeth were growing directly behind her front incisors.

This colt will always have a "dishy" face as in miniature type, not true Arabian type, but I find it pleasing because it's not really something associated with a deformity. Others have said they don't like the look of it, and that is where we get into subjective. A head shape that is not associated with a deformity such as dwarfism which causes tooth crowding or even sinus issues, will NOT make a horse lame, or unhealthy.

Other than that, it is purely objective, and type has nothing to do with it.

I hope this helps a little bit...and this is in no way meant as a pat on the back to me. I bred both horses. One wrong, one right. Maybe I'm overly cautious, but I give a lot of weight to ANY dwarf characteristic as a breeder, the registry gives you three strikes and even that is "subjective" as some would say.

A characteristic that others don't even mention are heavy, thick bones for the height (this filly has thicker bone than horses that were 3" taller and fully mature to boot). Now, if all else is very near perfect, I say go ahead and breed, as in heavy bones do not a dwarf make (look at the gelding in my avatar, not a dwarf, but he's thick boned, though not breeding material for other reasons), but if there's an off bite, a proportion issue such as very short legs or shorter forelimbs, etc., then no go.

I realize I've gone wayyyy off topic, but know that many are reading this thread.

Type is subjective, but type is not a reason to sugar coat obvious deformities, proportion issues nor just plain poor quality. There are horses of the "Arabian" type with poor quality, too, though that "type" is my preference as in full sized horses, I know that the day I got a true Arabian in miniature born on my place would be the day I felt I'd reached at least one of my goals. HOWEVER, that is a long ways off, I can only do my best. A miniature will never have the same proportions as full sized horses, at least likely not in our lifetimes. Evolution or adaptation takes too long.

Liz M.


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## miniwhinny (Sep 17, 2007)

Shari said:


> Jill said:
> 
> 
> > *
> ...


THANK YOU :aktion033: :aktion033: What a wonderful post. It gets old reading how "mine are better than yours" all the time and that if yours don't look like mine they are garbage. You summed up everything I've been feeling. :aktion033:

Breeders can do so much for this breed. I turned down numerous colts in my search for Ozy and since looking at others because none were stallion quality (not talking about MiniV's where I got Ozy from) Yet, everyone was sold as "herd sire material" and all but one (according to web sites) have now been purchased as herd sires. If you don't know enough about basic conformation then you shouldn't breed until you are ready...if you do know enough then you, as a breeder, should also know enough to geld those colts who don't make the grade and refuse to sell them ungelded. If just a few breeders would do this geldings would be more popular, those left entire would be worth more and the breed would improve in all types people breed for. Because of the cost and dangers of spaying ( my vet said it's a serious procedure for a mare) the mares are another topic.


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## Jill (Sep 17, 2007)

Far be it from me to confuse anyone with actual facts, or to expect that what I said would be read as what I said and not twisted into something I never said and never implied



:


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## Katiean (Sep 17, 2007)

Right this moment there is a Very nice Appy bred stud for sale here in Reno for $700. She has to move him because she can not afford the board. He is 2 years old and has national champions in his pedigree. Maybe he should be gelded. But, she isn't going to do it because if she can't afford the $150 for board whet makes you think she can afford $350 for gelding. Even if there was a program here like you talked about to geld him it would still be $250. I don't see her doing that. What we need is a program like they have for dogs and cats. Here in Washoe county, from the SPCA you can get a certificate to spay or neuter dogs and cats for $10. It costs around $150-$350 to spay or neuter a dog or cat otherwise. I think more people here would geld their colts if they had a program that offered $50 gelding. But they don't. We need to get the vets on board with this or colts we have and colts they will stay.


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## susanne (Sep 17, 2007)

I wholeheartedly agree with Katiean about gelding programs, and with encouraging gelding parties. This would be an excellent program for miniature horse clubs AND large breeders to coordinate. It would take some organizing body to coordinate, promote and provide the location and line up the vet (perhaps through a university vet program), but very little cash outlay on the organizer's part, so it would be a win-win situation for all.

It would be a great way for a farm to promote themselves as responsible breeders, and a great way for a vet to build a clientele. Not to mention, one could include fun activities, seminars, etc. to make this a fun and educational get-together.


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## nootka (Sep 17, 2007)

susanne, you know I halfway wonder if Dr. Hunter wouldn't be up for it. At $95 per at the most, I think that's very affordable....

MAYBE we could get local feed and/or tack stores to donate some item for each horse that comes through such as fly masks, halters, feed certificates...?

Some people are not going to want the horse to have to travel right away, so there's that issue as to where the horses will stay while they recuperate, because it does take them a little while to get back onto their feet and steady.

Good ideas!!!

(btw, having national champions in one's pedigree does not tell me anything about a horse, honestly, let alone their breeding quality or suitability, nor does NOT having any tell me a thing, though both things have implications which would cause me to look further before making a decision)

Liz M.


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## susanne (Sep 17, 2007)

This is something I've found interesting...

At almost every show we've gone to, somebody comes up to me and says (or implies) that I've made a big mistake in gelding Mingus. I'm always enormously complimented that they think highly of him, but I've never regretted my decision.

To my mind, he is thhe perfect gelding...he's a very good halter horse, partly due to his charisma, but his faults prevent him from being breeding quality. Nevertheless, many see fit to question my judgment.

This type attitude makes many people hesitate when they consider gelding a nice horse.


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## Minimor (Sep 17, 2007)

In regards to the wait time between gelding and trailering the horse back home, I can say that if the vet is competent at figuring dosages, it is not necessary to wait very long before the horse is able to travel. The last time we took two to be gelded, the first one got up and stood around while the second one was done--he was pretty much steady on his feet by the time the second one went down-- the second one got up and stood a few minutes and then was steady on his feet so we loaded them both back into the trailer, I went in & paid the bill and then we headed home. Previously we'd always had our horses gelded at home & some were woozy for quite awhile afterward, but that was due to the vet giving too much ketamine--based on that we figured we'd have to wait around awhile until they were fit to haul home, but such wasn't the case.


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## tagalong (Sep 17, 2007)

> (btw, having national champions in one's pedigree does not tell me anything about a horse, honestly, let alone their breeding quality or suitability, nor does NOT having any tell me a thing, though both things have implications which would cause me to look further before making a decision)


Exactly right.

Trying to catch up here...

As many have pointed out - and it still seems to get glossed over by some - having national champions in your pedigree - or not - means nothing. You can have a butt-ugly horse born to 2 national champions - it happens - but at least you are starting out with something of quality. No matter what the breed - minis, Icelandics, Hanoverians...

As has also been mentioned COMFORMATION has little to do with "style" or "type". I agree that some of the bulkier minis are simply said to be QH type... when an actual QH type would still have excellent conformation... the basic structure and foundation remains the same.

Style? Not all driving minis in the show ring have that flashy reach and high action....how then do you explain the country pleasure horses who win consistently and exhibit a level, ground-covering gait. And not all driving horses can move over into a halter class, either. There is a niche for everyone. I prefer the horses that are versatile and do both... and in time, more horses will do just that.



> It is just silly to say..anyone not going to the Nationals..or not breeding what is hot...are just scrounging.


That was not what I read at all.... and as far as breeding what is "hot" - I will repeat - good conformation is the foundation of every "style". Form to function... all the parts working together.



> It gets old reading how "mine are better than yours" all the time and that if yours don't look like mine they are garbage.


Yours, mine and ours are all bound by the same rules - and Conformation... (need to say that over and over again, I guess) crosses all styles. Conformation lies under all the fad colours. It is the foundation to build upon - no matter what your preferences for style. And the basic components of that do not change. The structure of legs... shoulders, angles... apply to a mini as much as they do to a Thoroughbred. And as there is no such thing as a perfect horse... we keep working on the "template" to improve them.

The last time I was at an open horse auction an entire herd of minis (15-20) went through the ring... many of them them bearing the unfortunate stamp of the "herd sire" who, it was announced, had grandparents who were National Champions... and was downright ugly - bordering on dwarf - and he may have been a minimal one. The "breeder" announced that he was getting out of minis as the market was "poor"... and someone bought that ugly stallion cuz he was "cute" and took him home to breed to gawd knows what.... and "make a few bucks"...

I cringed. What happened to that unfortunate little herd? I have no idea. If I had had the space - and my own place - I might have rescued a few of them... and found them pet homes.

And yes, *nootka* - I agree with you about your filly - and the minimal dwarf issues...

We used to have gelding parties when I worked back in the Rockies - they were a great success! One memorable May afternoon we had nine new geldings streteched out on the grass in various stages of recovery.... 2 QHs, an Arabian, 1 Connemara - and five minis... :bgrin


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 17, 2007)

Tag- that picture takes me back- I had seven foals stretched out in my barnyard one year- and an exhausted Vet!!

The place looked like a Hobbit re-enactment of Custer's last stand!!!


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## GREENWOODMINIS (Sep 17, 2007)

rabbitsfizz...you are too funny



: custers last stand :new_rofl: that is just so funny to visualize :lol:

lis


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## SunQuest (Sep 17, 2007)

Wow...

Where to start... I agree, basic conformation is just that. The basics. But, what I find a fault many would not because as I have been told that minis are not riding horses and they don't need that trait if just pulling a cart. What I see and like, many don't. And honestly, I still look at many of the horses including those in the show circuit and think that we have a VERY LONG way to go before I think that minis have what I ultimately want. As an example, I can't stand to see a weanling or yearling looking like an adult horse in porportions. Why don't we see senior stallions more often in the magazines so that they show us what they really are? Just because they were phenominal as a youngster doesn't mean that they matured to be phenominal and should be bred. But that is just what I like and wish to see and hence just my opinion. And it is also one's perogative to like what they have and if they feel it is breeding quality, then it is also their right to breed it as honestly, that is what makes the world go around. (Besides, it does give us something to gripe about right?



: )

Should we strive for better education on what conformation is? Most certainly. Should we strive to make a market for minis that are gelded? Most certainly. But... It will be through education that we will get the stallions gelded and not by saying that your stallion is fugly. It is easier to attract flies to honey than it is to vinegar. It is easier to teach someone what good conformation is by picking apart a horse that the teacher owns than it is to pick apart the students beloved pet so that it does not feel like the student has to defend themselves.

And while we are all passionate about our horses and what we are breeding, we do have to remember that those that need the help the most are not normally those that are on this forum reading this thread. Where we can make the biggest impact is just by being nice to those that are in need of a mentor and if we all would just take one person under our wings to try to help with that education, the world would be a better place.

Now with that said, and before you flame me about everyone having the right to breed what they like, NONE of the foals that have been born our farm will EVER reproduce. And, along with that I have not bred any horses in 3 years. Further, All stallions have been gelded (I haven't had time to update my web site, so can't go with that.) Now did I like gelding them? Nope. I love handling stallions more than mares or geldings and mine were always ran in a group and not an issue to handle. But then again, I beleive that it doesn't matter what the conformation is like if I can't handle the attitude. But, with the uncertain future that the last year has passed on to our farm, I could see no better alternative than to geld everyone.

Just my thoughts. Really, those that feel they are preaching to the chior or are frustrated that no one is listening need to find a better song about what they are preaching. After all, it is easier to nudge a huge ship to get it to go in the right direction than it is to try to force it to turn sharply.

Edited to add:

While thinking on this some more, I have come to the conclusion of "What am I doing to help educate others? Hummm... Maybe printing off the article that was linked to in the first page would be good. Then include that article with the paperwork on each and every horse that is sold. And what about conformation basics? What if one writes an article and includes it with the sale of each horse for those that are new to minis? I suspect that there is a lot we could do to further our cause without ramming our own thoughts down each other's throats. Including information that the seller could then read if they wish too may be one way to go about helping the situation.


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## nootka (Sep 17, 2007)

> It is easier to teach someone what good conformation is by picking apart a horse that the teacher owns than it is to pick apart the students beloved pet so that it does not feel like the student has to defend themselves.


I do and have done this, and will do it as many times as anyone's interested. Any of my horses.

I never said any one horse was fugly, just that I've seen some, and they are proudly being held up as an example for future herdsires/broodmares/in foal, etc. etc.

I've had fuglies born here.

Anyhoo, hopefully people will pay attention and at least consider finding a mare for their stallion that may not share his lack of neck or leg fault etc. etc. never double up on a conformational defect even if you DO breed one, if you breed bad bite to bad bite, guess what? Chances are real small that you get one with a good or normal bite.

Liz M.


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## nightflight (Sep 18, 2007)

> Right this moment there is a Very nice Appy bred stud for sale here in Reno for $700. She has to move him because she can not afford the board. He is 2 years old and has national champions in his pedigree. Maybe he should be gelded. But, she isn't going to do it because if she can't afford the $150 for board whet makes you think she can afford $350 for gelding. Even if there was a program here like you talked about to geld him it would still be $250. I don't see her doing that. What we need is a program like they have for dogs and cats. Here in Washoe county, from the SPCA you can get a certificate to spay or neuter dogs and cats for $10. It costs around $150-$350 to spay or neuter a dog or cat otherwise. I think more people here would geld their colts if they had a program that offered $50 gelding. But they don't. We need to get the vets on board with this or colts we have and colts they will stay.


Well... thats the point. For many reasons, not everyone with horses can afford to keep them the way they woud like them to be kept. If $350 is the best price for gelding in your area, bump the dollar amount up to $350. $100 is what I set out here because I got on the phone and called around until I found a vet who would geld for that much (some clinics do push $300).

If you need a program like the SPCA has for dogs and cats then someone has to build it. If you would like to try to build something you have a lot of support here. If it's not your cup of tea, please pass the info along. Maybe someone else would be willing to take on the task. Sometimes we all have to turn down new projects to do right by what we have going on.

On the vet clinics my club has done we get a group of people who say "interested" then we book the vet for a day with a min & max number. Then we collect a "reservation fee" that is only refundable if we cancel the vet. If enough people don't send in the reservation, we cancel. If people send in a reservation and do a no show, that money goes into a program. We do that most often with dental clinics, but there is no reason that it wouldn't work for a gelding party too.


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## maestoso (Sep 18, 2007)

I was talking to a friend about this topic, and she made a great point, so I decided to write it here...

For those of you who are intent on saying that gelding is the best and only logical option unless you have the best of the best, here is my argument to you.

Not everyone can afford the best. And from what I read you are saying that people who can't afford the best end up buying several pet quality horses, this is SO not true. Some people can only afford ONE PET QUALITY horse. There is a place for pet quality breeding, as long as you are not breeding soundness problems. Cow hocks is not a soundness problem, it is a conformation fault, that doesn't affect the pleasure of owning a horse. If the only options around are expensive show horses, where does the person who just wants a pet buy their horse?? I am not saying that the people who are breeding more then they can sell are doing the right thing, but I am saying that it is unfair to criticize someone who breeds a pet quality horse once in a while to sell or to keep.

The other argument I hear is that people who want pet quality horses can find them at a shelter(which by the way some areas dont have a shelter around for hundreds of miles) because this breed is over bred and many horses cant find homes. Well if this is the case, then it is EVERYONES responsibility to stop breeding, Including show horses. If this is such a crisis, they the big fancy farms are doing just as much damage by breeding 6 or 7 nice horses as the back yard breeder. Nice horses find their way to the shelter too.

I still say the inexperience is the problem, not breeding or studs or anything else. Some people are just sounding like there is no place at all for any horse who isnt show quality, and this just isnt true.


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## nootka (Sep 18, 2007)

> There is a place for pet quality breeding, as long as you are not breeding soundness problems.


Hhmmm....nope, I still don't see it being the right thing to breed for pet quality in this market.

There are so many horses to be had for far cheaper than you could breed them, if that is what you want them for.

Instead, go buy these ones going away at kill prices and save them, feed 'em, vet 'em and give them some training, and then sell them. You will be ahead of the game for what it costs to feed the mare through the Winter, worm and care for her as well as the stallion, and you don't have to lose sleep over the baby coming, nor worry that both mare and foal will die in the birth (a possibility for every foaling).

Enough of the people breeding the nicest to the nicest will have the "pet quality" outcome for whatever reason, and while still sound, they just aren't cut out for showing and/or they are not up to snuff for breeding.

Not to say EVERYONE breeding just for a pet here and there is off, or wrong, again, as long as they're considering heritable defects and the like, but that there are options and that's the point.

To breed these pet quality (well there has to be a better term, because all of my horses are pets and some are quite inarguably, still good show horses and/or breeders) for the sake of just making more of them (I can't see the profit, personally, so I can't put that in there), is really something all of us should reconsider.

The point of this thread is very near that concept.

The problem being, that there are some very large scale breeders out there who are really not doing any of us any favors with the tremendous amount of mediocre to very low quality horses heading out onto the market as well as ending up as breeding stock, when most of the have no business there just because they are no improvement on the last generation.

Liz M.


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## George (Sep 18, 2007)

I agree with Liz here. I do think anyone considering breeding should breed for quality, not just pet quality. The chances are good of getting pet quality with top quality horses so with two pet quality you're almost asking for more pet quality and you're also most likely breeding more than one fault into the foal. I think you do need to have a good idea of what you're doing and breeding for if you're going to breed.

I may not be an expert or even close but because of this site and even the people I sometimes disagree with, I am learning and I do go look for photos of what they're talking about just so I can get a good idea and know what to look for when I go looking for my next horse.

I also agree totally with Liz that maybe the best way for a lot of people to go is to rescue horses and work with them. I have seen lots of photo's of rescue horses that turned out absolutely beautiful. I have considered looking for a couple cast away geldings and training them as a hitch team; it won't be this year but I am seriously considering this for next year.



nootka said:


> > There is a place for pet quality breeding, as long as you are not breeding soundness problems.
> 
> 
> Hhmmm....nope, I still don't see it being the right thing to breed for pet quality in this market.
> ...


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## nootka (Sep 18, 2007)

:aktion033: , George!

That's not just because you agree with me , but because you are truly looking at things and considering your best option (which benefits the animals we breed)!!

Besides, wouldnt' it be nice if "pet quality" didn't mean somehow inferior and all the minis were gorgeously proportioned....?

Yes, I know there are some that like the weiner dog style, but it's nothing to breed FOR, and a certain amount of them will always be around, but most of us truly want a small HORSE to have as a pet/companion/lawn ornament, and as long as it's getting the right care, I have no problem with that.

It's just not fair to the horses to make more of the ones that ultimately will garner a very low price on the market just because of the fact that they ARE only pet quality (as in they may have no papers, not good conformation, or other problems that keep them from being viable for show or for pleasure use, or breeding)

Liz


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## George (Sep 18, 2007)

If there's one thing I wish I had done before starting my search for a mini, it is I wish I'd found this board first. I have learned so much already and I feel that if I'd found this forum first i would have had a clue as to what to look for.

I am not saying my horse isn't very nice, he is to me. However, now that I have read, re-read and looked at photo's I have an idea of what I should have been looking for when my search began. Instead, I started backwards and I am now learning to work my way forward with my next horse.

At this point, I have a very pretty horse that I am very proud to have but I now see the faults that I didn't when I first saw him. I may be wrong but I doubt he is show quality and if that is the case, although I love stallions, I will have no problem gelding him, using him for cart and companion and begin looking for a show quality stallion. I do want a stallion as that is what I like, but like I told a friend who argued with me when I said I am considering gelding, "If I'm going to have a registerd stallion and want to eventually show him I may as well have a stallion that stands a chance in the show ring."

I'm sometimes very argumentive, but at the same time I am open to learning even though I may be a stubborn cuss when it comes to learning.

I have said it once, twice and then again that there are some beautiful horses that I see on this forum and I don't mind saying when I look at some of them I do a lot of wishful thinking. And Liz, whether stallion or gelding, I do think Pyro is awesome.

I realize at times things got heated on this thread but with over 4000 views people have found it interesting and I think helpful too. Not all of us will agree but hopefully all of us will learn.


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## Ashley (Sep 19, 2007)

Here is my GELDING. I got so much crap for gelding him, however he has way to many faults to ever make stallion hood, even thou at 10 he thinks he is a stud. He will tease and do all the stuff except breed(thank god).

He isnt halter quality, but does awsome in jumping/hunter/obstical and showmanship. Best of all he is my pet quality boy.







Here is my other pet quality boy/ performance horse but not halter. Somebody actually wanted to buy him as a stallion from me. Ha not happening. I would hate to see what his foals are like.


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## nootka (Sep 19, 2007)

George, you've made some great points, some valid observations on this thread and others, and if you now feel better qualified to ascertain quality and correctness for your own purposes, kudos to all of us.

It's when we close our minds and eyes and start opening our mouths that we start to go backwards or stagnate.

I'm glad to see people feel they have learned from this. I really have nothing to lose or gain from people learning these things as I sell so few horses, but I do like to see our breed move forward in quality and correctness, as well as breeder responsibility.

I jumped into the middle of the recent fray over at fugly horse blog because they were ridiculing some things, but found that they and I were basically on the same page, and I understand what they were pointing fingers at. They were just doing it far more rudely than I ever would have, and I really felt like hopping in there with them with some people that refuse to change, refuse to do the right thing, but it would be nice if they lost all their "fodder" in the form of breeders becoming more responsible and every one of us making more informed and conscientious breeding decisions.

Thanks, too, about Pyro...he's a sweetheart and I can't wait til he's old enough to drive. He's such a character as well as looking pretty!

Liz M.


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## outlawridge (Sep 19, 2007)

Last year I had my colt gelded and have been told by quite a few people I was crazy. He truly is what we strive for, a perfect horse in miniature. However, I felt if I would keep a colt a stallion he had to be darn near over and beyond perfect in every way! and I was hoping for black and white. This boy is all black with star and gorgeous. He makes a gorgeous GELDING and gets to be in the herd and do therapy work as well. He is a very happy boy. I have four mares and breed for ONE baby every year or every other year. I am in this for the love of them, not money and it is not a business for me. No offense to others that are in it as a business, just please, only breed those that are supreme examples of the breed, will improve the gene pool, and do NOT carry the dwarf gene (a whole other topic, I know). BTW, gelding here only cost me $75, but I would do it even if it cost much much more. All part of being responsible for the lives we have CHOSEN to bring into this world.


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## Buckskin gal (Sep 19, 2007)

And for anyone promoting the breeding of minis, please make sure your mares are as good of quality as your stallion if you are really wanting to improve the breed. There aren't enough good homes for the masses of minis being bred, across the country, regardless of whether the colts are gelded or not. And please, be as responsible for the fillies you produce as you say we should be about the colts. The excuse of keeping fillies/mares because they can produce only one foal a year, is a feeble one because that one single foal will either have to be gelded or if it is a filly it will probably be the next one to be bred. I love a well conformed mini with a wonderful temperment, and that is what I strive for in buying and if and when I do a breeding. Like George, not every person buying their first mini is going to know what is the best unless they have really done thier homework.....I just hope the sellers wil be honest with those first time buyers. Most of us do keep learning and growing but it is going to take more than just gelding colts to take care of the problem of the over production of minis. Another thing that should be considered is there are not enough people to buy all those show prospects that are being advrtised...looking at the saleboards, there is as much problem in selling the ones that are show/breeding prospects as there are for pets, for many breeders. And yes, there are those who have had great sales this year but it may not be that way next or the year after with so many horses being produced.....the economy may have to be considered also. Just some food for thought and I am sure others will have different opinions. Mary


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## nootka (Sep 19, 2007)

Very true. Gelding the colts (all but the very top quality/best conformed) is a start, but definitely culling the lower quality mares to pet or companion homes/just retiring them or sending them to be youth show horses instead of breeding them is another.

I do hope some easy "fix" for substandard mares is available soon....I'd love to use it when that occasion arises.

Liz M.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 19, 2007)

It's when we close our minds and eyes and start opening our mouths that we start to go backwards or stagnate

I am going to frame that!!

It is, however, possible to keep an open mind even whilst inserting your foot in your mouth (Oh I KNOW believe me!!



: )

I think we have had some good points made, and taken, on this thread- it has been a good one, one for the archives.

"Go forth and fail to multiply until you have at least proven that you should be able to reproduce quality" should be the motto of the mini horse world.


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