# questions on possible roach back



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

ok, I cannot find any good pictures of roach backs. I have found severe roach back pics, but nothing showing what a minor one would look like (if there is such a thing)

I have read a few posts about top lines, roach back, and just a horse with a more visable back bone.

I had posted about wanting to train my mares to ride for short led rides for toddlers.

In some of the pics of my mare Rainbow she has a weird back. She had a foal in Aug, towards the end of pregnancy and after the birth her spine was very visable. She did not seem thin, but like the weight of the baby pulled her down. (does that make sence) like she sagged. It has improved, and I would like opinions on what her problem is , if she has one.

These first ones are older












These are from today


























on this one there are hairs that are sticking up exactly before she dips. They make it look more humpy but compare it to the other side shots.






here I tried to outline the area. You can see the dip. If you were to feel her, she feels straight along her back, then dips then curves to her tail.

So have I made you crazy yet!!! I know I am!!!! Any ideas, opinions, advice please share, and sorry some of the pics are huge, I really dont understand why they will not shrink.

THanks!!!!!!


----------



## heart k ranch (Nov 16, 2007)

I honestly think that called a hunters back and my massage theapy lady ( for horses) workes on that spot on my guy. I wouldn't call that a roach back. IMHO


----------



## Mona (Nov 16, 2007)

Yes, I would consider it a roach back....now that said, I am not sure if it is roached naturally(conformation defect) or due to misaligned vertebrae or something similar.


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

Just a note, I do not know anything about her past. Except she has had at least 3 foals.

(will not be having any more) She was foaled in maybe '98 or '99. Trots, and rolls like normal.


----------



## heart k ranch (Nov 16, 2007)

I would really talk to a chiro or and massage person.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Nov 16, 2007)

I would definitely call it a roach back- not a particularly bad one but it could get better or worse.

IMO a mare like this should not be bred for a number of reasons and I would not really want to ride one either.

She could, possibly, be driven, but I would get a Physio's opinion on it, if I were you.


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

100% agree on she should not be bred! thats why we have her! THere will be no breeding going on of any sort at my house!





It makes me crazy though, when the vet was just out last week, I asked him how she was, and he said good. Nothing about a roach back.

Can someone explain in detail what a roach back is, and what about Rainbow makes her have it? Like where in the pics do you see it? I want to make sure I understand. Because like I said she feels straight, untill the dip. Is the dip the roach? She does not really hump up in person.

If someone can, feel free to edit my pic to point out the roach part. thank you !


----------



## HGFarm (Nov 16, 2007)

I also agree with have an equine CHIROPRACTOR look at her- she could be out of place. You would be surprized how many horses in the world ARE- big to small and really benefit from a little help. I have had a couple of personal experiences with full sized horses in the past.

Yes, they can get around ok without limping and all, especially if it is an 'old injury' or problem, but doesnt mean it's comfortable for them. The muscles will change shape due to having to try to hold things together in a different way.

One horse I had was out over her hips- and did appear somewhat like this, only further back. Went away once she was put back in place and had excercise.

Just something to think about.... Many vets, as many Dr's, dont agree with any type of chiropractics or non typical medical solutions for things. I can speak from MY personal experience, there ARE other ways of dealing with things!

JMO


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

Ok, so does anyone know of a chiroprator in the Nw Florida area? Ha, my hubby will love this, I will not go for my back, because of the cost, but lets get one for the horse! lol!

If it can be fixed I really want to. I dont want her to be suffering.


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

Ok new question......

 


Can what is looking like a roach back be affected by her being a bit thin? I think she needs body mass. She has a belly, but we all know that does not mean fat. I think she needs to gain muscle mass. If you feel her hips and butt area, it is very weak. On my other mare, she is solid. Rainbow is soft, and while she is not dangerously thin, she is not full. If that makes any sense. 






You cannot feel too much rib, but her withers is pronounced, and just can see her hip. I would like some well placed weight on her. She is still nursing a 3 month old so......................

 


Can a slightly under weight mare look roached but not be roached? 

 


yes I am still holding out hope that she is anything but roached back.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 16, 2007)

I agree, I don't think this is likely a conformational "roach back" so much as it is she's got her back all out of alignment and the muscles around it have clamped and become malformed as her body tries to compensate. I say this because you can clearly see her withers and the normal dip behind them, and the way her back joins her pelvis seems normal. Yet your mare is standing like she's hunched and the muscles around that area appear very flat and tight. I had no idea how much of that could be changed until I finally decided to try a chiropractor for my little mini that stood a similar way and his entire topline changed. His back sunk down, he moved more freely, he no longer stood hunched, I mean WOW! Once you've had that experience you begin to recognize when they are uncomfortable versus when they are built wrong.

Here is Kody when I first got him, standing with his pelvis tipped and hind end tight because of an uncomfortable lower back. I had no idea at the time.






Same horse the day I met him a month or two before (sorry it's so big):






Kody this year, I believe when his back was in (he threw it out again within 24 hours at this competition



) Can you see how there are now shadows in front of his hip because he is standing normally instead of tense and rounded up there?






I think your mare is probably suffering from a combination of things. In that first picture, I don't know if you owned her then or have changed anything since but her feet are very very long and probably making it difficult for her to walk comfortably. She looked in pretty good weight in the September pictures but I'm concerned that if you shaved her now you'd find she's thin. She has that under-muscled, big-bellied look I associate with malnutrition or having worms. If I recall correctly you are a new mini owner and it is very hard to tell through winter hair so please don't think I feel you treat her badly! But if this were my horse I'd promptly get her feet trimmed if they hadn't been, call a well-referenced chiropractor who works on big horses, and switch to a more observant vet who would treat my mini like any other horse instead of writing her off as "fine." It's not that your mare is miserable now, but I think she'll be much happier when she's more comfortable and has more weight on her.

You are obviously a caring owner to this girl so get equine health practicianers who care as much as you do!

Leia

Edited to add: Stella, we were typing at the same time! If the top two pictures aren't showing, just hit "refresh" on the page or right-click on the red x, copy the address listed under "properties," put it in a new browser window and hit enter. It should come up but those are old pictures off my Webshots account which I stopped using because they often wouldn't show here.


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

hobbyhorse23, I cannot see your before pics! I would love too!

As far as the hooves yes they were horribly long when i got her. They looked like ladies fingernails. That first pic is just before I got the farrier out. Thank GOD she seems to do a good job.



It was so hard to get any farriers to come out, I almost had to get on my knees and beg! lol.

She only just started to fuzzy up, and is holding her weight, but not gaining at the moment. I think it is mostly the foal nursing. I am slowly increasing her food, but dont want to go crazy and then get her too big. I am going to do the 5 day on her, I dont think she has EVER had it.

Please try to post those pics again, I really would love to compare to Rainbow.

Thanks!


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 16, 2007)

And again, posting at the same time. See my footnote on the first post.





Leia


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

Thank you Hobbyhorse, that did help alot. I think she is thin, even if the stupid vet sain she is not. I am going to up her more on her grain and will update in a few weeks.

Kepp the ideas coming!!!!

thanks everyone!


----------



## BM Miniatures (Nov 16, 2007)

My gelding has the exact same thing as your mare.

We had the chiro out, the vet etc. He had no pain, was rolling, running etc fine so he said if it isnt bothering him dont mess with it.

How does ur mare act? does she act in pain?


----------



## Margo_C-T (Nov 16, 2007)

Stella, if she is nursing a 3 mo. old foal, and not holding weight, the odds are good that she NEEDS more by way of nutrition. The highest demands on a nursing mare come when the foal is about three months old--you don't want to increase her concentrate too rapidly, of course, but at a time like this is when you may well need to steadily increase it to more than you would ever consider doing if she weren't nursing a foal! I have had mares that you could not BELIEVE how much feed it took to keep them in decent weight WHEN THEY HAD A FOAL AT SIDE, especially a foal of about the age you mention!

That said...I DO see her as having a 'moderate' roached back. Now, I have not specifically 'researched' roached backs, but I do not believe that one as moderate as hers would mean that she was 'suffering'?? I certainly agree that if there is even the suspicion that it were genetic, the animal should not be bred--and I commend you that she will be no longer bred! And, I can't say one way or the other whether or not what I see in her is genetic or due to some sort of misalignment due to muscle spasm, etc.--but I certainly wouldn't rule EITHER out. I'm sure a knowledgeable equine chiropractor probably wouldn't hurt-but I surely couldn't tell you that was 'the answer',either.(Even after handcopying Leia's web addresses an typing them in, I could only see the first picture, and honestly, though I could tell the horse wasn't particularly happy in the shot, I couldn't really tell much about the true posture of his back--and I never could see the second photo...so I can't 'speak to' how those photos reveal a condition similar to your mare's.

I would definitely try to improve your mare's overall physical health with a comprehensive program of moderate exercise along with proper/sufficient feed, ongoing proper hoof care, deworming, etc..--all items which contribute to any horse's overall good health and well-being, and all of which it sounds like you have already embarked upon! You sound like a good 'horse mom', and a very observant one, too!

I have never seen a roached back horse that you couldn't tell where it's withers were; also, the little 'dip' in front of the loin/coupling area is common in roached backs-the term 'roach' refers to the 'upward curve' of the backbone, in departure from what should be its normal curvature. Without years of experience, you might well NOT be able to 'feel' a modest 'rise' such as she appears to have--from shortly behind the withers, her back actually ALMOST 'looks' STRAIGHT-however, a horse is not supposed to have a 'straight' back, per se.

Even if your mare does have a genetically-caused 'roached back', it isn't IMO a severe one...I would suggest consulting a KNOWLEDGEABLE equine vet about how the mare might be 'worked'-driving, etc., before putting her into any actual work, for her sake--after the foal is weaned, and once you feel you have done all you can to alleviate the current circumstances.

Best wishes,

Margo


----------



## heart k ranch (Nov 16, 2007)

If its a roached back then its a conformation flaw. But if its the hunters back then it caused from tight back muscles...

Ok this is my roping gelding and he has what called hunters back. not the greatest picture of it but it works. If you look above their loin (almost above their hips) and that part of the back does that. Or thats what my chiro says. This is from anything, Mine was from roping, I had a mini that had that from getting ridden. This gelding has to have a special saddle because his withers are so high. Makes people think that he is sway back but he isn't just high withers!

He was acting sore!


----------



## Reble (Nov 16, 2007)

Found this picture of a horse with a roached back when I searched...

Here is the site

Loins and Coupling

Roached back [17]

great information anyways, sorry still do not understand the roach or roached back than?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Equine_conformation


----------



## Marty (Nov 16, 2007)

You are lucky to be in Florida because you have a nice variety of equine experts all around you.

This is what I would do:

I would contact

1. Equine Acupuncturist

2. Equine Massage Therapist

3. Equine Chiropractor

And usually they are one in the same. I was lucky that my equine vets did all of this also. I see a need for all three and I have used all three with fabulous results and I highly encourage this. She may have a bit of a roach back but even if it is combined with tightness back there, you'd be surprised and shocked how these things can help and relax it. It's amazing and I swear by it. Read the Horse & Pony newspaper or contact Carol (Vertical Limits) here on the forum because I bet she can steer you towards a goodin.


----------



## Margo_C-T (Nov 16, 2007)

With all due respect...

I see a visible difference between the 'hunter's' back(that must be from the H/J 'world'; I never heard the term before, but then, I never frequented that 'world'!), as illustrated in the photo of heart k ranch's horse(Is he a QH? He does have very prominent withers; does he have a good bit of TB?) and the photos of Stella's mare. I would not have considered what I see in each's photos as the same condition-would not have described heart k ranch's horse as having a 'roach' back(where I come from, also called a 'hog' back, for obvious reasons, if you are familiar with the body structure of hogs!)

Reble, I wonder if different terminology is somehow in use? In the photo you posted, I can see NO evidence of what is in this thread being referred to as 'roach' (or 'roached') back. Instead, I see a horse I would describe as somewhat 'sway' backed--basically, a condition opposite to 'roach' back.

Margo


----------



## Vertical Limit (Nov 16, 2007)

Margo_C-T said:


> Reble, I wonder if different terminology is somehow in use? In the photo you posted, I can see NO evidence of what is in this thread being referred to as 'roach' (or 'roached') back. Instead, I see a horse I would describe as somewhat 'sway' backed--basically, a condition opposite to 'roach' back.
> 
> Margo


I agree.....absolutely NO roach back in that photo........... long sway back with an absolutely short, shallow, horrendous hip.


----------



## Mona (Nov 16, 2007)

> Reble, I wonder if different terminology is somehow in use? In the photo you posted, I can see NO evidence of what is in this thread being referred to as 'roach' (or 'roached') back. Instead, I see a horse I would describe as somewhat 'sway' backed--basically, a condition opposite to 'roach' back.


I agree 100%...no roach back there at all, only what I would consider a sway back. A roached back has an upward curvature to the spine.


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 16, 2007)

Ok, I went to feed for a freind, and felt up all her horses!






I really think some of Rainbows problem is from needing some muscle mass. Her spine felt very similar to the other horses, but where their spines dipped a bit, the muscle was bigger and evened things out.



I know this does not make sense!

If you could feel her, she is like a person with a flat butt! She needs more booty.



I dont know, I will talk to my not very enthusiastic vet and do what Marty said by looking up alternitive docs.

She was doing great holding her weight, untill the last couple of weeks, (maybe 2) and I had already been increasing her grain, but noone but me thought she needed it. I am going to trust myself a bit more and increase again. SO far I have been mostly right about them and what is going on with them.

Everyone has been well wormed, and hooves done, and shots. Rainbow just needs the 5 day, but the feed store was closed this evening. So tomorow or I will order on line. I think she needs that too, as I said I dont think previous owner wormed with anything other than ivermectin.

And just to know, I never bred her, she came bred and we have her 2.5 year old. I really am not into breeding. We just liked her, and didnt mind taking her out of the gene pool.





Thanks for all the replys, this is such a tricky problem.

We need a photo gallery of all things weird,


----------



## Marty (Nov 16, 2007)

_ She needs more booty. _

You crack me up.





I just got back here and your pics just loaded, that's why I did not add a comment on if I thought it was a roach back or some injury.

Actually I don't see much of nothing there but I don't know much anyhow. But if Carol says it's just a goofy backside I would go with that and I wouldn't bother with anything more . OH!


----------



## Vertical Limit (Nov 16, 2007)

Marty said:


> But if Carol says it's just a goofy backside I would go with that and I wouldn't bother with anything more . OH!


If another Carol answered this thread...sorry. Marty I was not speaking of the OP's horse, I was speaking about a horse that Rebel posted as having a roach back. I would never tell anyone on this Forum that they had a



> long sway back with an absolutely short, shallow, horrendous hip.


 OH! Even if I thought it........Well, unless someone emails me directly and asks point blank. You know I don't mince words. If you don't want to know then don't ask.


----------



## Marty (Nov 17, 2007)

_long sway back with an absolutely short, shallow, horrendous hip._

Thought you were describing me


----------



## runamuk (Nov 17, 2007)

Maybe this will help.

What I am learning in dogs....."roach back" describes a "rise at the loins" and is desirable in a number of dog breeds, especially sighthounds who have a unique running style.

here is a picture showing a distinct rise.






and the description

_Body: Shoulders should be slopeing and be fine at the withers, a narrow chest with great depth, the back should rise at the loins into a gentle curve_

Based on the OP picture I also would call it a mild roach back. Horses who have been injured can develop a roach as well so the chiro and strengthening are both good suggestions. Roach back does typically LOOK better with some weight on the horse and some muscling.


----------



## Reble (Nov 17, 2007)

Now that shows a roached back, thanks for sharing.


----------



## minimule (Nov 17, 2007)

This is one of the mares that I lost a few years back to colic. She developed what folks told me was a "roach back". I was also told that a horse can develop a roach back as a result of pain somewhere in their body.


----------



## AppyLover2 (Nov 18, 2007)

If you're looking for an equine chiropractor go to FLAhorse.com. If you don't find one listed ask about them on their bulletin board. I'm sure you'll get a response. I can't remember any names but there were several in the area when I lived in St. Augustine.


----------



## StellaLenoir (Nov 18, 2007)

Thanks Minimule, for sharing that picture

And Appylover, Thanks for the idea of FLahorse. I will surf around today and hopefully find someone to talk to. I would love to be able to help her. I do know she had an injury years before I got her where she kicked and got tangled in fence. She has a scar on her back lower leg, so maybe she did something to her back too.


----------

