# Overo Patterns



## cowgurl_up (Aug 13, 2008)

Ok, I love colors and genetics and love to read all of the "what color is my horse" threads just to see what peoples answers are. I must be having a very off day as I just can't seem to wrap my mind around this!




I know Overo is kind of a loosely used term since there are so many different patterns that go along with it such as Splash, Frame, ect...... But a horse can test negative for LWO and can still have overo right? But there is no test for Overo like there is Tobiano (or am I mistaken?) so how do you ever really know which patterns your horse carries?

Here's the main reason I ask. My boy I'm sure carries Tobiano, but what are your thoughts towards what other pattern(s) he might carry? His sire was black/bay Tobiano. His dam is registered as sorrel but has a blaze and two blue eyes which I have thought might be where Overo might have come from (that's where the silver was hiding also!



).











I would be glad to see others examples of the different patterns if anyone is willing to share and would love to hear others thoughts on this!! I really want to have a better grasp on this!


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## Carolyn R (Aug 13, 2008)

I would guess your boy is a tovero (overo and tobiano) the blue eyes could come from the splash gene, but with that much facial white I am guessing he may very well have the frame gene (LWO).

Best to test him if he is going to stay intact.

Carolyn


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## kaykay (Aug 13, 2008)

I agree with the above and would test him to be sure.

Here is my visual black frame overo stallion Wauk A Way Feature Attraction



This is my all time favorite pattern


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## cowgurl_up (Aug 13, 2008)

Thanks Carolyn R and kaykay! The test actually will be sent out tomorrow (have to remember to pull hair tonight!)

kaykay, you boys is gorgeous! Not just beautifully marked but beautifally built! What pretty action!


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## kaykay (Aug 13, 2008)

thanks so much sara!! He is also such a sweet man and a joy to be around


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## Carolyn R (Aug 13, 2008)

I forgot to add, if you want to check out some mini wesites with some oveos and toveros, and I am sure there are some other pinto patterns too, but I usually just drool over the overos, check out.....

Red Rock Miniatures, Nostalgia miniatures, Ltd Miniatures, Dream Maker miniatures, and Kickapoo Minis, I know most of you are all forum members, Hope you don't mind me tossing your names out there, but you all have some really nice examples of overos and toveros. My all tme two favorite stallions tha carry overo, .....Cross Country's Call Me Sir, and 4 G's Little Kings Alfalfa Pleasure (Hawk owned by the Reece's).

If you are looking for examples of patterns, others websites are a great way to (drool) I mean learn.





Carolyn

KayKay, your boy makes me drool too!!!


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## REO (Aug 13, 2008)

My boy Lotto is a Splash! Your boy looks to carry Splash to me!

Almost all my horses are "Toveros".


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## Ferin (Aug 13, 2008)

Cowgurl_Up, your colt is beautiful! I love those blue eyes with his silver dapple coloring.





I also agree with Carolyn R and KayKay. By the way KayKay, your boy is gorgeous!



I have always loved the Wauk A Way horses.

I have one horse that carries the overo gene.

Wauk A Way Kansas Twister is my black visual frame overo gelding. I also love that pattern!


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 13, 2008)

I'd say your guy is tobiano and splash overo, but I to would test for LWO/Frame just to be safe..





Our guy has a lot of facial white and blue eyes, but tested negative for LWO meaning he must carry the splash pattern..






And he also looks to carry sabino as well.. The bald face, blue eyes and one white spot are the only indications of being overo so he's pretty minimal






His sire is C-Chief Proud Eagle who is appaloosa bred, dam is 4 GS HF Bambies Scarlet Ribbon, who is sorrel/chestnut with a wide blaze, she's a daughter of Ramsey's Bambie, who is sired by Powells Shah Jehan who's sire was pinto, so the splash/sabino had to be passed from him, wish I could find pictures of him to see what patterns he appears to carry!


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## midnight star stables (Aug 13, 2008)

Your horse carries Tobiano + Splash. Test him for LWO. He could be a carrier, or just Splash; the test will tell.

Frame Overo(LWO+) is just one type of pinto pattern. It is harmless on it's own and causes no problems what so ever. I'll help a little bit with it's problems in a minute.

I just wanted to help break down "pinto" for you.

There are 4 main pinto patterns, they are the following:

Tobiano: Most common of all. Most pintos carry it, and it is easy to breed for(50/50 chance of getting it when a parent is a "regular" carrier. There is a 100% chance of getting this colour if a parent has paw print markings and test homozygous)

Sabino: Is a roaning gene. It often combines with other colours. It gives a greying or roaning look to white markings. Think of a Clydsdale draft horse.

Spash: Rather rare. Big bold and sharp coloured markings on the back and neck. White legs and faces are common.

Tovero: Is a term used to say a horse is Tobiano AND ANY other pinto pattern, be it Sabino, Spash or most commonly LWO+ Overo.

And of course, LWO+ Overo: This is the special pattern. Like all the others, you still have to have one parent that carrys the gene to past it on to a foal. A SOLID colour horse CAN NOT be LWO+ however if it has a snip or a white foot etc, then it Could be a minimal overo and will then carry LWO+ gene. Not all horses with a star or snip will be LWO+ but they could and should be tested.

If you breed a LWO+ mare to a Tobaino stallion(not homozygous) you have 4 differnt out comes. 1) another LWO+ 2) a solid LWO- 3)a LWO- tobiano or 4)a tobaino who carrys LWO+ (Tovero) (Well I'm pretty sure, could be off on #4 or #3... but the idea is the same) Basically you only have 25% chance of getting a LWO+ foal. You have 0% chance of getting a dead LWO++ foal. This is so far Very safe.

If you breed a LWO+ mare to a LWO+ stallion, you still have 4 out comes again, however they are now differnt then above. 1) A live LWO+ foal 2) A live LWO+ foal 3) A live LWO- foal or 4) a dead LWO++ foal. This means if you breed two overos, you have a 50%chance of getting a live beautiful overo foal. You still have 25% chance of a solid LWO-. However you now risked 25% chance of having a LWO++ foal, which will die.

Overo is safe and a beautiful colour. It IS HARD to get, and that is why it is prized. Dead LWO++ foals are not common, but they do happen. LWO+ is a great gene and cause no harm when used correctly. That's why there is a test.

I personally LOVE the overo look, and I always have. That's just me.



Want to see MY Overo?



LTDs Lil Copycat .....And I'd take 100+ like her in a moment!






Cat is a classic Frame Sabino Overo. She is what many overo breeders aim for. She is a perfect example, as she is bred from Sample and comes from many of the early Sample, Van Lo, Miller AND LTD lines. She is colourful living art, in my eyes anyways, an I just think that I am so lucky to have been given the chance to own MY DREAM horse!






Thanks for letting me share



I also love Twister, Feature and Sky






Awesome overos!


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## mizbeth (Aug 13, 2008)

WOW Kaykay.............where have you been hiding him?

Oh, the others are pretty too, believe me.

Beth


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## kaykay (Aug 14, 2008)

Ferin I love twister!! And of course LTDS copy cat is also the cats meow



Great explanation of the different patterns!

I havent posted a lot of pictures of Feature as I am hoping to get some new ones done next month. He was pretty chubby when we got him home but is looking much better now. Im hoping to get a video of him moving


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## Tam VanderWerf (Aug 14, 2008)

Ok, so being totally uneducated about pinto pattern, what would this guy be. He is a bay roan and he has a partial blue eye.






Thanks!

Tam


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 14, 2008)

Without a doubt tobiano and splash, tobiano of course giving you the main pattern and the white that extends over his back, splash giving you the wild face white and partial blue eye, of course frame could also be playing that part so would have to test to be sure.. Now, are you 100% sure he is a true "roan"? Because to me, he isn't a roan, and the white flecking throughout his body giving him the roan look is sabino at work... GORGEOUS guy by the way!


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## mizbeth (Aug 14, 2008)

This is Alamo Streakers Mime. He is a frame overo, splash overo and carries the sabino gene. He has produced an array of these patterns, combinations of these patterns and of course stunning solid colored horses (even out of pinto mares



), Sequoia Majestic Mime.


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## Tam VanderWerf (Aug 14, 2008)

Now, are you 100% sure he is a true "roan"? Because to me, he isn't a roan, and the white flecking throughout his body giving him the roan look is sabino at work... GORGEOUS guy by the way

Lucky C.... thanks for your help and your comment on him - all 26" of him.

No, I am not 100% sure on the roan. His sire was a strawberry roan with a wide blaze face and white socks on his rear legs. Would that classify his sire as a sabino?

Also, where would I have him tested to KNOW what color pattern he is and what test would I request?

Thank you for all your help!

Tam


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 14, 2008)

> No, I am not 100% sure on the roan. His sire was a strawberry roan with a wide blaze face and white socks on his rear legs. Would that classify his sire as a sabino?


Do you have pictures of his sire? Is his head and lower legs darker than the rest of his body, which is a sign of a true roan.?

This is my true roan mare, notice her head and legs are darker than her body which is heavily roaned?






Since he has a wide blaze and white socks then he does carry sabino and that's what is giving him those markings.. Wouldn't suspect splash since you say his face white is just a wide blaze, no blue eyes and just socks..



> Also, where would I have him tested to KNOW what color pattern he is and what test would I request?


I've used Animal Genetics and was happy with them.. You can print off the forms from there, pull the hairs and send them in.. I got email confirmation a few days to a week after sending them in and then the certificates in the mail a few days after that..

If he were mine I would definitely do LWO without a doubt.. There is a sabino test, but it only tests one form of sabino, so your horse can test negative for that but still carry sabino (I believe it's clydesdales who will test negative for this form, yet there is no doubt that sabino is what gives them their facial, leg and sometimes belly markings!) You could also test him for tobiano to see if he's homozygous or heterozygous


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## Tam VanderWerf (Aug 14, 2008)

Lucky C

Here is a picture of his sire, Cascades Magic Rhythm. By the way, thank you for your time and educating me. I really appreciate it!


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 14, 2008)

Looks like, to me at least, sire is in fact could be a true roan AND he's got sabino going on too.. The darker coloring under his eyes, and his ears appear darker is what has me saying true roan..


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## Sixstardanes (Aug 14, 2008)

Saber here would be a Tovero, right?

Being Tobiano with Sabino & Splash - yes?






He has a white chin, a spot on his right knee and a spot on his tummers






He has some roaning on his right side


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## Margaret (Aug 14, 2008)

This one would qualify for overo, with some other descriptions I'm sure, along with splashed white.

feel free to offer a color description if you have one.

He is an 08 colt out of a blue eyed pinto mare and a classic Champagne stallion.


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## kaykay (Aug 14, 2008)

hi tam

I dont think your guy is roan either but maybe you have more pictures?? His color looks too even.

Saber I think is tobiano and sabino. Could be splash but he has an awful lot of tobiano color which splash usually likes to cover up like flank marks and chest sheilds


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## cowgurl_up (Aug 14, 2008)

Wow! The horse posted here are just



!!!!!

Carolyn R - Thanks so much for the list of website! I have been to Red Rocks, LTD's, Kickapoo's, and ROKO's many times (just makes me wish I had more space!). I will have to find the other two you listed though and check them out!!!!

Fern - Thanks so much for your compliment on Tee!!! I love your Twister and have enjoyed seeing pictures of him!

Lucky-C - Thanks for showing pictures of your guy! I really love Sky!

Desiree - Your descriptions made a ton of sense! Thanks for taking the time to type that out for me! I realy appreciated it! Cat is a very pretty mare! I can't wait to see what she does for you!

This is another one of those threads that I am going to have to print out and save! Thanks everyone!


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## Dona (Aug 14, 2008)

Here are some of the Frame Overos we've produced here at Kickapoo. They all carry Sabino as well....and have roaning & lacy edges.

Kickapoo's Apache Moon







Kickapoo's Laced By Moonlite




Kickapoo's A MayZing Moon


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## REO (Aug 14, 2008)

Dona, don't forget MY boy!

He carries Sabino, Frame, Tobi, & Splash, right?






Kickapoo Moons Phantom Feather


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## Dona (Aug 14, 2008)

REO said:


> Dona, don't forget MY boy!
> He carries Sabino, Frame, Tobi, & Splash, right?
> 
> 
> ...


Oh....Gosh NO! Can't forget "Topper"! He does carry Tobi, Frame & Sabino....and possibly Splash. Not sure about that one as there is no test for that yet.



How's that handsome fella doing, anyway?


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## shelly (Aug 14, 2008)

OK, my stally is homozygous tobiano and LWO-...so he cannot be splash or frame or sabino or overo. Right?


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## Songcatcher (Aug 14, 2008)

shelly said:


> OK, my stally is homozygous tobiano and LWO-...so he cannot be splash or frame or sabino or overo. Right?


OK, I thought Rabbitsfizz would come on here and explain what a useless term "Overo" is, but she must be busy.

Overo is simply a term used for white patterns that are not Tobiano. It is NOT a particular gene. It can refer to Frame (LWO), Splash, or Sabino. The three have nothing in common, but it is possible to have all three in combination as well as having Tobiano. Tovero is simply a combination of the terms Tobiano and Overo, referring to the fact that a horse has one of the so-called "Overo" genes in addition to Tobiano. A horse can be homozygous or have any combination of any or all of the genes except for LWO as being homozygous for that would result in a lethal foal. Having one of the genes does NOT prevent a horse from having any or all of the others.

Use of the term "Overo" confuses people into thinking it is a particular gene. Using the individual names (Frame {which is the same as LWO}, Splash, and Sabino) causes less confusion. However (and I know Rabbitsfizz will disagree with me on this), I have no problem with referring to any horse with Tobiano markings and also white on the face (which is not a result of Tobiano) as a Tovero. It simply means to me a combination of patterns.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 14, 2008)

> OK, my stally is homozygous tobiano and LWO-...so he cannot be splash or frame or sabino or overo. Right? wacko.gif


Your stallion COULD possibly have sabino and/or splash, he just DOES NOT carry the frame/LWO gene, and will throw tobiano foals


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## Tam VanderWerf (Aug 14, 2008)

Kay Kay....

Here is another picture of him. Maybe it will clear up the "roan" question. If you look up on his neck, you can see it is very "roany" there.






Thanks for your help!

Tam


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 14, 2008)

> Here is another picture of him. Maybe it will clear up the "roan" question. If you look up on his neck, you can see it is very "roany" there.


I'm still sticking with him being sabino and not a roan.. Either way he's absolutely beautiful


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## crponies (Aug 15, 2008)

I don't think that last horse pictured is a true roan either but the roaning is from sabino. Going back to the original horse pictured, doesn't that mustache point to a particular pattern? I was thinking that is a sign of frame.


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 15, 2008)

Freeland you worded that very well, I may steal it as it is far more diplomatic than my normal "tovero is a pointless, useless, long since outdated term used to bump up the price or make people feel the horse is special" comments!!!











The horse pictured does not look Roan...has he ever sired a Roan?? Basically he looks Sabino, which can cause quite heavy roaning, and true Roan horses are normally a lot paler than that in the body, I have never seen a "minimal" true Roan!!

The moustache was thought to indicate Frame but it really doesn't, it is a bit like the pawprints on H/Z Tobianos....they are often there on H/Z horses but their absence does not mean the horse is not H/Z. The moustache is often there on Frame but it does not _have_ to be there and it's presence does not mean the horse_ has_ to be Frame.

We have seen instances of it in horse that have only Splash, no Frame, and horse that, visually, have only Sabino (tested neg. for LWO)


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## Joanne (Aug 15, 2008)

Tam I agree with some of the others that your horse is carrying sabino and is not a roan.

But to add one thing that has not been mentioned. There is currently no test for Splash, which is unfortunate.

Also there is only one sabino test at this time (SB1) and there is believed to be several sabino genes.

We believe several of my horses carry multiple sabino genes. One is a roaning gene that at its extreme during the year can bring the horse to look like a true roan, but then they shed out and have true dark markings. Some of the sabino genes change the horses coloring as they age, getting more roaning on them. This may not become apparent until they are two or three.

This is Pacific Midnight Dancer. She is lighter in the summer then in the winter. And has gotten more roaning each season. There is NO GREY in her background. She was born a minimal white tobiano.

She was tested at Animal Genetics and is a tobiano, homozygous for black, negative for frame, and negative for sabino (sb1). Her dam is a jet black tobiano pinto and her sire is a LTD Magic Man son that is a frame sabino pinto.











She has been a puzzle to us, so your thoughts would be appreciated.

Thanks, Joanne


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## shelly (Aug 15, 2008)

Lucky-C-Acres-Minis said:


> > OK, my stally is homozygous tobiano and LWO-...so he cannot be splash or frame or sabino or overo. Right? wacko.gif
> 
> 
> Your stallion COULD possibly have sabino and/or splash, he just DOES NOT carry the frame/LWO gene, and will throw tobiano foals


These are the results of his tests...Tobiano-TT, LWO-nn, Red-Ee, Agouti-aa, cream-nn and silver-nZ. I guess I will have to send in for sabino too?

I tested Sahara for tobiano and she is nT...does that mean she is a minimal tobiano?


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## Joanne (Aug 15, 2008)

If Sahara is a nT she carries one tobiano gene and yes, she is a tobiano pinto.


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## Songcatcher (Aug 15, 2008)

shelly said:


> Lucky-C-Acres-Minis said:
> 
> 
> > > OK, my stally is homozygous tobiano and LWO-...so he cannot be splash or frame or sabino or overo. Right? wacko.gif
> ...


Your stallion is homozygous for Tobiano (one copy from each parent), negative for LWO, heterozygous for Red/Black (one copy of each, but Black is dominant), negative for Agouti (Bay), negative for Cream, and heterozygous for Silver (only one copy). Sahara is heterozygous for Tobiano. That means she got the gene from only one parent and statistically will pass it on to her foals only 50% of the time. It has nothing to do with whether she is minimal or maximum. Those terms refer to the amount of white on the body. A heterozygous Tobiano can be maximum marked and a homozygous can be very minimally marked, or vise versa.


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## Tapestry Minis (Aug 15, 2008)

Here is my love



Reeces Phantom Hawk LWO+


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