# Getting a Mare to Accept Foal or Foal to Drink from Bucket



## Jill

Maddie is still not allowing Trooper (born 4/29 @ 6:30pm) nurse unless you hold her and tell her to stand. You can step back and sometimes unsnap the halter but have to keep telling her to be still. She won't let him near her if you don't hold her. Sometimes after he's nursed and goes a way, she will lunge at him and bite him (I don't think hard) and she has kicked him. She doesn't kick him when we make her let him nurse.

I'm not sure what to do. I tried rubbing the towel we dried him off with on him, her and him again then draping it over him. She's interested in that smell but didn't change her attitude towards him.

Tried this morning to get him to drink Foal Lac mixed w/ her milk and syrup but couldn't. Tried like an hour and a half and he'd been 3 hours not nursing prior (wanted him good and hungry). He was starting to fall asleep so had no choice but to make her let him nurse again.

Maddie had a hard delivery and nearly or did prolapse her uterus (not sure on correct term -- it wasn't outside of her body but the vet had to push it back from the cervix and push the horns of it how they go). She was like she was in hard labor for about an hour after he was born (took me about 10 minutes to call the vet when I realized for sure it wasn't normal, then the vet maybe 40 minutes to arrive). Had to have an epidural ETC. so Maddie was unable to investigate Trooper at all until he was 4-5 hours old. I think this is the cause of the rejection.

She has raised at least one other foal before.

Not at my wits end yet but I think that may be coming, plus the reality of needing to be able to go to work here at some point. I do think from what my vet said, I can now go longer now than every 2 hours on feeding at his current age (I think he said 3-4 hours at 3-4 days) which helps but still won't give me time to go to the office.

I just really need to get her to accept him, or get him to drink from a bowl and hoping some of you have some advice that could help.

Thanks!

Jill

PS here they are. In the pic together, I airbrushed out the lead rope which I was at the end of. She shows mild interest when he nurses but then when he's done sometimes pins ears and lunges at him and two nights ago she corned him int he stall and was kicking him. Now that they can go in/out of the stall and he can stay out of her way better, she's not going out of her way to attack him. In case gives any additional insight _(and oh man am I tired)_

PPS he is active after he nurses, runs and bucks. Nickers when he hears us coming, too (knows that means he'll get to eat).









[SIZE=14pt]*05/05/09 UPDATE:*[/SIZE]

Just wanted to update everyone on "Trooper"!!!

We gave up on trying to get Maddie to accept him. She was becoming more and more resentful of him, however...........

He is doing very well with drinking milk (Foal Lac formula) from a bowl. He learned to do it late Sunday morning and I think he's pretty happy to now get enough to eat! His dam had a very difficult time after his birth requiring extensive vet care. This put her "meeting him" back 4-5 hours after delivery. I think this, along with her pain, caused her to reject him but the alternative was she would have died. But, thank God, Trooper is eating well and he is VERY frisky!!!





Here he is in action and in picture. His front leg is SO much better. Still not perfect, but no comparison to how it was at birth and I feel confident it will be straight (as does our vet). His back legs are great now. In the picture and probably in some of the video, he was thinking about potty which is why he's got a hunched posture. I wish I could catch him playing in the stall on film but I cannot get far enough away from him in there to catch a video and when I look in right now, he doesn't play. I can sure see him doing it over the stall camera, though






*[SIZE=14pt]Whinny For Me's Finely Dun, a/k/a Trooper[/SIZE]*
_2009 AMHA / AMHR pending, AMHR Futurity Nominated Red Dun Colt (may grey out) -- Expected To Mature @ or under 34"_

By Erica's Gone and DunIT (AMHR Nat'l Top 10 / AMHA Honor Roll / Multi Champion) and Out of Wee Equine Acres Dun Sweet

Bloodlines include: Buckeroo, BTU, Yellow Diamond Little Feather, and Egyptian King





[SIZE=18pt]*05/08/09 Update / Summary -- What Worked For Us*[/SIZE]

For those who may read this looking for ways to help their own rejected or orphan foal, I wanted to just give a quick like point list of what helped us the most, as we were not ever able to get Maddie to accept Trooper despite some early optimism:


From what we have read, it is best to get the baby onto a shallow bucket or bowl (best) because the bottle can get them to suck down air and also harbor bacteria more readily than buckets / bowls. We never could get Trooper to latch onto a bottle anyway.
We had the most luck with a metal 10" diameter dog bowl that from the inside was just about 3" deep. We kept holding it to Trooper's muzzle and I also took my hand and smeared his muzzle with the milk so he'd lick it off and get the taste of it. I tilted it so the deep end would be at his muzzle when I held it up to him and I did dunk his chin but never over his mouth as that could go up his nose.
The first few days, foals must have milk every 1-2 hours around the clock. After 3-4 days, you can go to about every 3 hours. Then you can stretch it to every 4. 
The foal will be less likely to put his head down into a bucket than to drink out of a more shallow bowl (thanks, Kay!).
You will have the best luck if you have a way to prop the bowl up when you leave it for the foal to drink. We used a milk crate turned upside down and "filled" it with 6 cut 4x4 posts. This was to give it weight so not to be knocked around. The bowl is the kind that is hard for dogs to tip over and we set it down on the cut posts inside the milk crate. It fits in about 2" into the crate which keeps the bowl from being slid off the surface.
Once the foal will start eating milk replacer pellets, you can go longer between milk feedings. These pellets can be fed free choice and will not spoil so long as you do not wet them.
Sprinkle milk replacer formula over pellets to get the foal more interested in them (thank you, Cristina!).
We found a limited number of brands of powder and pellets available "locally" (we traveled a wide circle of local to get what we now have on hand). Many recommended Progressive Nutrition formula and pellets to me, and I'd have gotten them but the closest dealer is about 125 miles from here.
We found Mare's Match and Foal Lac powders and pellets to be easiest to find here. We have some of each, however, the Foal Lac brand pellets are MUCH softer than the Mare's Match. If you have the same two choices, early on, go with the Foal Lac Pellets. When in doubt, try them yourself... I did and it beats the foal choking on them.
Starting at around 10 days old, foal should have free choice soft / tender / leafy hay, salt and water free choice. Fill the water bucket up to the top so foal doesn't have to stick his/her head down too far into a "scary" bucket.

I hope no one needs this thread for a long time, however, I know if we ever have the same kind of situation, the next time will be MUCH easier thanks to what I learned on this thread and through hands on trial and error with Trooper.

*Thank You *everyone who chimed in with ideas and moral support. This was just one of the times I have seen LB members come together to help each other and it illustrates why "this place" is so great -- it has so many caring and knowledgable members!!!


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## LittleRibbie

Oh Jill, that is so not the news I was hoping for. I wish I could offer some advice. Is Maddie able to see the other moms nursing their foals....maybe stand them all together... monkey see monkey do.......gosh I just dont know. Prayers to all and crossed fingers. The last picture is precious. Heidi


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## luv2ridesaddleseat

Oh dang it Jill! Sometimes this stuff just doesn't go easy. If it were me, I'd be using this. I hear amazing things about it!

http://www.doublelacres.com/milk_replacer.htm


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## Minimor

I can't offer any advice on getting Maddie to accept him completely--I have no personal experience at all with a mare rejecting a foal.

I have bottle/bowl fed a couple. I started mine on a bottle--use straight mare's milk to get him accepting the bottle. Once he's nursing good on the bottle, substitute formula for the mare's milk. In my case, once the colt was familiar with the bottle he was quite agreeable about drinking formula. (I used goat's milk w/corn syrup--I have never had any success with getting foals to like the powdered formula!) I just had to squeeze some formula into his mouth, then he discovered that it tasted good & went to nursing. Once he liked formula from the bottle I had no trouble getting him to drink formula from a bowl--I just let him get a little bit hungry, and then he took right to drinking.

You've got a real nice colt there--I hope he can soon figure out the milk-in-a-bowl so you can get some sleep and go to work!


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## ontherisefarm

I dunno Jill. I wonder if she is associating the colt with all the pain she was going through and then all the stuff afterwards when the vet arrived. I think just about the only thing you can do is what you are doing and hope she realizes that it isnt his fault. If you want her to accept him. If you are wanting to feed him formula then that is kinda a process to for some that have already nursed the mare. I really dont know as I have never dealt with this before so I guess I am gonna shut up now.. I do wish you the best.. Maybe you can find someone to help you hold the mare while you are at work. I would do it for you if you were close but alas I am not.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis

I don't know how you've got your barn/turnout set-up, but a friend of mine had a similar problem with a full-size mare and foal.. Mare tolerated having the foal around but wouldn't let her nurse, so they set-up a "safe-haven/creep area" for the foal where she'd be able to 'get away' and in the creep area they used one of the foal igloo cooler feeders, don't know if you've seen that, but may be an option (link to picture of one with donkey foal: Igloo feeder Their foal is doing great, she learned that that area was where she'd get fed and also knew she could go there if momma was crabby.. Might give that a try, would allow you to leave him with her (if she tolerates it) but gives him his own personal area, plus the cooler would allow you to leave him enough milk for a longer period of time, then when you got home from work/errands could switch it out with fresh..

With the orphan filly we had three years ago (lost the mare) we could never get her to drink from a bottle, stuck a bucket in with her and she took to it right away.. When we took the dairy calves from the cows and switched them from bottle to bucket, we'd get them nursing on the nipple then stick it into the bucket of milk and let them drink through the nipple out of the bucket until they got used to sticking their head down in the bucket, after that we didn't need the nipple anymore..


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## funnybunny

Something similar happened a while back. The vet gave the mare some sort of calmative/sedative/pain reliever which would not affect the foal. It calmed her enough that she did not fret and it only took two doses for her to let the foal stay and nurse her. Sorry, can't remember if it was a painkiller plus sedative or what, but it sure took the edge off and allowed the mare to calm down and get to know the foal.

Perhaps you could ask your vet about what drugs would help in a case like this. If she hurts so much, she may not want to be bothered, so if you can take care of the pain and calm her down, things might be better. So sorry this is happening to you.


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## bevann

Have you tried feeding the mare while you are holding her for the foal to nurse?Maybe if she associates him with something pleasant she will take to him.She also seems to be checking out his butt when he is nursing-maybe put something sweet like sprinkle sweet feed or sugar on his butt so she can lick him while he is nursing.Maybe after a few days she will get the idea that he is OK.He sure is beautiful.don't worry about the legs>They usually come around.I had a filly many years ago with a hock at a right angle when born.After a few days out running around it straightened up.I also had a very knock kneed colt(Forrest Gump)because he was slow to find the milk bar.I did physical therapy on his legs several times a day and he came out fine.Just took 1 hand below the knee and 1 hand above the knee and gently straightened the leg while counting to 10.Did this several times a day and it worked.Good luck and keep us posted.


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## MiLo Minis

I had a mare that wouldn't accept her first foal. She would get a really hard udder so I thought it was because it was painful for her when he nursed. I used warm clothes, massaged her udder and milked a bit out to soften it before holding her so he could nurse without harm. I actually had to hobble her so that she would let him close enough without being able to kick him. I had the vet in and he gave her a mild sedative. NOTHING worked.



Every time I let him alone with her loose she would beat him up although we had set up a small pen in the corner that only he could get into. Finally on the 5th day I caught her picking him up by the back of his neck and that was it. I took him out and brought him in the house. We set up a stall in the basement for him and I became his mom. We tried breeding with her once more with the same result. She was sold as a pet. I sure hope you have better luck than I did. There is nothing worse than a mom that won't mother. She was a beautiful Buckeroo/Rowdy bred palomino mare that I totally adored until she did that. I couldn't believe how strongly I despised that mare afterwards.

Anyway, I bottle fed him at first. You need to be really careful not to tip his head up when feeding from a bottle or the milk can go into the lungs. Then we set up a calf pail with nipple. I smeared milk on the nipple, placed his muzzle on it and away he went. It was only a day before he started drinking from the pail rather than the nipple and he did that on his own. We used milk I took from the mare, goats milk with corn syrup added and then milk replacer formula. I was finding he didn't do all that well on goats milk. I introduced foal pellets at about 8 days old and he would nibble on them. He is now a fully mature horse and you would never know he was basically an orphan.


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## Ashley

At this age, to be honest, she probably isnt going to accept him. So, personally if it was me I would just bottle raise him and not take any chances. Do you have any others that would be a good buddy for him?

Use a lamb nipple on a soda bottle. It will take time but he should take to it...........as for work........just tell your dad you need to add on a office for a few months


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## barnbum

Oh gosh--I'd be at my wet's end long before now. How frustrating and upsetting.

I have no advice--but it seems something mentioned here ought to work.

We're all hoping for some good news.

Good luck!


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## Joanne

Jill the dam is always the best solution, so if she will let him nurse, even if you have to be there, that is preferred.

One thing that may be happening is that with the prolapsed uterus she maybe having more pain than normal when he nurses. You might consider Banamine once a day for a couple of days and seeing if that helps her.

Also, Bag Balm does wonders if she has sore nipples. We use this on all the mares at about 6-12 hours after foaling as that is when they get sore. Colts are more aggressive feeders than fillies and he may be being a usual colt, but it is hurting her more.

As you have already discovered, the more room you give the colt to be able to get away from her the better. Avoid tight areas.

If he runs away does she follow him? You want her to bond with him. So if you can lead her away and he will follow and vice versa, that is a good thing and you are on your way.

When we have had problems I milk out the mare and feed the foal the milk from a margarine container held folded into a V. Giving the foal moms own milk does two things, it drains the dam's full udders and minimizes mastitis and gives the baby the formula that he should be eating.

I hope this helps you Jill.


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## Jill

Thanks, everyone, for the advice!!!

I think we're already making progress as far as her getting better with him. I talked with a friend (who is a vet and forum member) and her advice sounds right on and already seems to be helping.

And, Ashley ... as the current president of my company, and the registered principal (ie the one who is responsible by both regulation and law), and "my dad" spending most his time on the golf course (partially retired), that's not an option. I'm the boss... I'm the one that needs to get things done as far as clients go and the one clients call for advice. Dad really only comes in when we have face to face client meetings and only then depending on who it is



(sometimes like now, I do wish I had a boss I could call and have him or her cover for me).


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## frosthillfarm

[SIZE=10pt]You are such a good horse "mom" Jill. Your horses are lucky to have you.[/SIZE]

You have such care & concern - I know everything will work out for little Trooper. Good luck with your sweet boy!


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## rabbitsfizz

Jill I went through the same thing last year (but not the almost prolapse thank God!!)

I did sedate the mare with Sedalin (Vets advice) quite heavily at first, I tailed off as quickly as I could, but I found exactly what you are finding, that once she was haltered, even if I just stood there, she allowed him to nurse.

I would sedate her, I really would, it gives her a chance to get used to him him being around without really having to deal with all the aggro that she is having at the moment, it just takes the edge off, as it were, and allows her to relax.

It took me ten days, in the daytime I let them out into the paddock, where she could get used to him following her around, and night I had her in the foaling box (which is 20 X18) so he did not bother her ....what happened was that the foal was emboldened by the "groggy Mama" and the fact that once I had Mama on a halter he could nurse so he started acting like a normal, bratty foal!!

On the tenth night all I had to do was lay the halter on her neck and she let him in, so I took a chance, put and old, deliberately weakened, halter on her and left them to it.

I observed form the caravan and she let him nurse so I put my head down and went to sleep and took a leap of faith.

Next day I stopped all medication (she was almost off it anyway) and she acted normally, day after I took the halter off and that was it.

She has just foaled again and is acting normally with this foal, but very quiet and placid, not ever going to be a possessive, neurotic Mama (Whoopee)

Jill I wish you the best of luck, but if you possibly can, keep the foal on it's dam.


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## Brandi*

ahhh it just kills me when they don't accept the babies



I sure hope something gives soon so that you can get some sleep and go make some money


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## Dairygirl

with my foal, who's mom died when she was 11 days old. I was told to put the milk in the bucket and leave it in the stall with her. Lucky for me when I went back out she was hungry enough she found the milk and took right to the bucket. Made life so much easier. Now she is a spoiled brat.


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## Relic

Good luck Jill l know it can be fustrating at times to say the least. Our mare Daisy refused to let her foal JoeJoe nurse so the vet had us use hobbles on her 24/7 so she couldn't kick him in the head once to often and do him in he already knew to stay away from her head and bites poor begger but the kicking him away from her was awful to watch so we hobbled her. Worked after the third day l took them of and JoeJoe was allowed to nurse after that without damage and she was a good mom you'd never have thought treated him that way the first few days if you weren't there to see it in person...


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## Mona

I'm coming into this one late, but am glad to read you feel you may be making some progress! Hope it continues! Good Luck!


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## hairicane

So sorry u are having problems. He is just adorable!



Hope Mom comes around for u!


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## Miniv

Joanne said:


> Jill the dam is always the best solution, so if she will let him nurse, even if you have to be there, that is preferred.
> One thing that may be happening is that with the prolapsed uterus she maybe having more pain than normal when he nurses. You might consider Banamine once a day for a couple of days and seeing if that helps her.
> 
> Also, Bag Balm does wonders if she has sore nipples. We use this on all the mares at about 6-12 hours after foaling as that is when they get sore. Colts are more aggressive feeders than fillies and he may be being a usual colt, but it is hurting her more.
> 
> As you have already discovered, the more room you give the colt to be able to get away from her the better. Avoid tight areas.
> 
> If he runs away does she follow him? You want her to bond with him. So if you can lead her away and he will follow and vice versa, that is a good thing and you are on your way.
> 
> When we have had problems I milk out the mare and feed the foal the milk from a margarine container held folded into a V. Giving the foal moms own milk does two things, it drains the dam's full udders and minimizes mastitis and gives the baby the formula that he should be eating.
> 
> I hope this helps you Jill.



I'm relieved to read that your mare is getting better with accepting her new baby.......

Joanne's post makes a lot of sense to me. Early on, the nursing can cause a major reaction to the mare's uterus with contractions. So if your mare had a prolapsed uterus, there may be some painful reactions occurring...... I agree with the suggestion of giving your mare some banamine for a couple of days to see if it makes a difference. (Check with your vet, of course, as well.)


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## Jill

Hi, Folks --

We're still having issues and actually, she seems to hate him more last night and this morning. Been giving her banamine. Actually, my vet said to stop it but feel I got better advice to continue to give her some and plan to keep on as long as I'm trying to make her accept him and she's acting like she is

However, I also need to really really try and get him on either a bucket or a bottle. It's hard because he can only go so long w/o eating and to make him most likely to take either of these things, he's got to be pretty hungry (desperate) enough to try. Can only milk so much from her because if I take too much and he's gone his 3hrs w/o eating and won't take it from the bucket or bottle, I obviously cannot put it back in her and worry she won't have enough then to fill him up.

I am so frustrated.

H hung a calf bottle in the stall and worked with him to accept last night with no go. We tried the bowl yesterday morning. I think maybe at the 8am feed time, we should give him a hung up calf bottle of milk (nipple coated in Maddie milk) and a low hung small bucket of milk, and a bowl of milk all in the same area of the stall... Try and get him to take the nipple on the bottle and if he won't leave him with those three options for an hour? I don't know though if that's okay. If he doesn't take any of those, there's 4hrs of no food. If he tried to "nurse" from any of those three things so much as he does my knees he'd be fat by now.

Also -- I do not have mini hobbles... Could I make maybe with trailer snap ties and some dog collars? Do they just go around her back ankles, vs. up to her chest / neck like breeding ones (I have neither).

Thanks for the advice and anyone who has some other ideas, please let me know. I'm starting to become really concered we're going to reach a point where I won't be able to force Maddie to stand still for him to nurse.

Thanks,

Jill



PS If I thought my fillies this year were keepers (and I do) times that by 100 right now on Trooper. I love him so much for all the time we spend with him and so sorry for him because of how Maddie treats him.


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## Robin1

Jill, the nipple on a calf bottle is probably too big for him. When I was bottle feeding one I just went to the grocery store and got a couple of baby bottles. Put a couple of holes in the nipple so he can get a better mouth full. If you have a good feed store near you call and see if they have any lamb nipples, it will be a better size for him and they do have buckets with lids (so flys don't get in it) that you attach the nipple to and it will keep the milk clean and the right temperature so he can get a couple of feedings and you can get some sleep. This was on a mare that never got milk but she would "mother" him.

We had a mare that tried to kill her filly (only when nobody was around). I thought she had finally taken to her but when I got in the house the barn camera showed the mare picking her up and throwing her across the stall. Needless to say, I ran back out to the barn where she just stood there looking at me like she was innocent. My vet felt that the mare had a low pain tolerance and blamed the baby.

The vet snubbed her nose to a post in the stall and braided her tail and then back up into itself so it mad a strong circle, pulled the mare against the wall and tied her tail to another post so she couldn't swing out to kick the foal. That sort of worked as long as I was standing there threatening her but as soon as you left (even for a minute) she was cow kicking at her. So eventually I had to hobble her on top of it and she still tried to get the baby.

I did sell the mare as a non breeding mare later that year. She had a pedigree to die for but she just wanted to kill that baby I didn't want to take a chance again. This was her second foal. She did kind of reject the first one for a couple of hours but wasn't so aggressive about it.

If you get him bottle feeding and she doesn't want anything to do with him, go get a playpen and put it in your bedroom, put down some bedding and bring him in at night. That way, at least you won't have to go out to the barn every couple of hours, just out to the kitchen to warm some milk.

Good Luck,

Robin


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## Jill

Robin --

Thank you for the advice!!!!!

I never even thought of bringing him inside, and I may just do that!

For the bottle, I'm so tired it is hard to tell what I'm leaving out or not saying right yet asking you all for advice based on what half ---ed way I have of describing what I'm dealing with. It is a calf bottle (huge) but the feed store did give is a lamb's nipple for it vs. a calf one. It seems about the right size. H took it out and set it up while I was trying to sleep a bit. He came got me b/c a cathater came out of Maddie (had already talked to the vet about what to do for the med if it happened) so we took that all the way out of her.

Anyway, I asked H if he was sure he "could" nurse from that bottle, ie was milk coming out. He said he should be able to and he'd coated it in syrup and Maddie milk and he had licked it but not latched on. So, I don't care I swear anymore. I don't think there's a horse germ I wouldn't have in my body by now. I got down on my hands and knees and tested it to be sure it works for nursing. It works. I'd already tasted the Foal Lac before when we'd mixed some and that's what came out.

uuuuuuuuuuuuuurrrrrrrrrrrrrrrgggggggggggggggghhhhhhhhhhhhh! Not sure I'm going to get through this sane but then probably didn't come into it that way!

Thanks again. I appreciate it so much!

Jill


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## Jill

PS if we can get him on this bottle and can't find one of the nipple bucket things (haven't looked yet but will), I was thinking I could wrap the bottle and it's holder in a neoprene neck sweat. Does anyone know / think that would work to help maintain temp? I think that insulin wallets are made out of that stuff (think they are, but mine doesn't have to be fridged when in use -- just have to not use for more than 30 days).

I like the Igloo nurser idea too, but not sure I can get him to latch onto an outward pointing nipple (as I can't get him yet to latch onto one pointing down like he's used to).

ALSO anyone know how long I can let him go w/o eathing w/o killing him as I try to make him desperate enough to do the foal lac? I am really worried we're reaching the point of Maddie kicking at him as we hold her or not allowing us to hold her. I love the braided tail idea but she has her vulva stitched up and all that internal trama so I'm scared to do that to her and make her worse physically.

I was advised by someone I trust 110% to cross tie her but I don't see a way to in the stall and even if I could find a way, the size of the stall I don't think he'd be out of her reach really as far as kicking. I could maybe snub tie and hobble her if I can find a way to hobble, but based on her getting pain meds and acting more and more resentful to him, I just think we are heading fiurther from hopes of her accepting. I have also rompom her previously and could agan but you'd be amazed how little this effects her (and the vet had to give Trooper 40% as much as a FULL SIZE foal and he was still very strong and struggling as we did the plasma... must be tough genes!). I do have some dormosedan but not sure this is okay or even useful based on her growing further away from caring even a little about him.

Also, to answer someone else, he will sort of follow her if we lead her away. I can make her follow him only if I lead her. When we take him out to let him run around the yard, every other horse on the property is calling to him and curious about him EXCEPT for her. She couldn't care less.


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## kaykay

Jill

Im so sorry for what you are going through and I know you have to be physically and mentally exhausted.

I think at this point I would probably give up on her bonding with the foal before you make yourself nuts with worry.

I think you have to just decide which to go with and just go with one----either a pan or a bottle. I know Fran went through this and had to use a very very shallow pan and the foal finally started drinking from it. It was almost like a plate with a small lip. I think this worked because horses in general think things are deeper then they are and get scared so a flatter pan was less scarey.

I had to use what was posted above. A very old fashioned cheap baby bottle. It was the only thing my foal would nurse from. We used a hot needle to make the holes a bit bigger. But since you have to go to work etc I think a pan would work better for you so he can eat even when your not there. I know after a few days Fran didnt have to heat the milk up anymore and they will drink it room temp or even cool.

Sending good thoughts

Kay


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## Minimor

Try a kitten bottle, with its tiny little nipple. Seriously. It's the only thing I've had success with. I know the bottle is tiny, and the nipple useless on anything bigger, but it can be an intermediate step--a way to get him nursing on a bottle & drinking the milk replacer. Like I said earlier, once he'll drink it from a bottle then it's just one step away from drinking it out of a bowl. For some reason foals seem to love those tiny little nipples.


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## mizbeth

Hi Jill

I am sorry you are still having problems with this precious baby eating. I thought for sure after seeing some of your photos that the mare had taken to him by now, vs. I have no advice as this happened to me only once so far and it was many years ago. I do remember how hard it was to feed the baby and keep her going until they finally bonded. My mare was a maiden too. Someone told me, that in my case the momma was a new momma and was afraid to let her baby out of site, so she would turn to follow the baby each time it moved, so she did not stand still enough for the baby to eat. She finally developed some trust and allowed the baby to nurse where she was not trying to watch it all the time. In the meantime however, we had to tie her to the fence with lead and rope around her flanks, lift her leg for baby to eat and so on. Believe me the so on, went on for quite a while.

I have heard others say on here though, that it was easier for them to teach the baby to drink out of bowl rather than a bottle?

I don't think I would keep her on banamine either, if she is sore just milk her out. That is just my thoughts on it, banamine can cause other problems too, and most Vets do not recommend giving drugs like that to lactating mares.

*** I wonder if just giving them LOTS of room and turning them loose would work. With supervision of course. I wonder if we don't interfer too much some times. Not saying that you are. I did have a Vet tell me one time not to feed the baby and let him get hungry, then he would nurse. I closed my eyes, held my breath and did what the Vet said. It worked!

I wish you the best of luck......I hope this situation turns around quickly for you.


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## Genie

I have only had experience with one foal who needed to drink from a bowl as I was never able to get him to accept the bottle/nipple.

If the little guy will suck your fingers then you might try a small pail and put your hand in the milk with fingers up and when he is trying to suck your fingers he will start getting some milk on his own from the pail and realize that it's easier to drink it from the pail as trying to get some milk from your fingers. (when he tries sucking from your fingers pull your finger tips deeper in the milk so he has to try to find them in the milk. (we did this with calves all the time as our operation was dairy so the calf only got a day or two with mum and then on to the pail)

With our foal I was able to get him to drink from a syringe and kept the syringe over the bowl of milk and kept getting the tip of the syringe closer to the bowl and then eventually he just drank from the bowl. I didn't think of the calf procedure until later.

It is very troubling and your mare must also be in some distress as she had such a terrible experience.

I hope you can figure something out.


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## Horse Feathers

Can you take the baby to work with you? I know it sounds dumb, but until he is older, you would be able to work.

Good Luck


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## Jill

Thanks SO MUCH everyone!!! It means a lot to me all of you trying to help and giving me your good advice.

Okay -- I have gotten him to sip a little from a bowl two different times. But the last time he did it, then he wouldn't anymore and he started shivering. I was afraid it wasn't because he was cold but maybe extremely weak since he's not been getting as much as he's used to getting since the last time he got to nurse the "normal" amount of time from Maddie....... which now I cannot remember was it 1:30 or did I let him go as long at 4:30 too? H says he drank a long time at 4:30 and he probably right.

I've left him now in the stall less hungry (but only nursed about 1/5 as long as he normally would after 3hrs from Maddie). Got the bowl in there. It's a metal dog bowl that will be hard to tip, only it holds more way more than he needs meaning he'd have to stick his head further in (it's maybe 3" deep?). It's very full now way more than he'd eat probably in 2 days. I think I'm going to see if I can set another bowl inside it when we refresh the milk.

*sigh*


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## Frankie

I see you are making progress, but just in case I thought I'd add something.

Prints was born with no sucking reflex so even a bottle wasn't an option.

For a pail, an ole farmer said the material had to be wood. So I bought a wooden salad bowl, (all I could find). Something about the way their tongue grabs hold of it. Put Kayro around the rim and let it run down the sides. Milk was in the bottom fourth of the bowl. I held it up just a little for her. It took her I believe a day and a half, but it worked. That was after about 10 days of nothing. I was willing to try anything!

Just in case you needed idea number 200.

Best of luck!


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## Magic

Oh Jill, what an exhausting thing to be going through! I have no ideas as I've never gone through this myself (yet), but I'm soaking up all the suggestions. This may need to end going on the "best of" part of LB. I sure wish you luck on getting your little one to eat on his own, poor sweetie!


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## Jill

Thank you so much everyone and I have an UPDATE!!! I will cross post to the other thread about him.

He is drinking from a bowl!!! He drank about 1/2 a cup quickly when I went out around 11am. Then I fooled some with Maddie and went in and he drank another 2 ounes so like 3/4 a cup! The directions say a full size foal should have 3 cups every 3 hours SO I think that was right much!!! I am holding it up to him to drink, but he does. I hope he will soon find it on the stall floor and boy will life be easier for everyone. It already is though as I think I have given up on Maddie taking to him.

I'm going out in about an hour to give him a fresh bowl of foal lac then I am going to take the world's best nap!!!


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## Magic

Yay!!! What a relief! Enjoy your nap!


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## Crabby-Chicken

So glad to hear he is doing better. I bet you have a nice bunch of ulcers. I was almost sick when my mare wouldn't let her baby nurse and that was just half a day of fighting with her.

Hope he gains weight and feels better soon!


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## billiethekid40

Jill, can you set the bowl on something like a stool or a box so he doesn't have to reach down to the floor to drink? Might be easier for him...think of the raised diners they use for large breed dogs so they don't have to bend to eat.


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## Barbie

Jill-

Hope he continues to drink from a bowl for you so you can have a LONG nap.

Several years ago, Tam & Dan from Amazing Grace had a bowl baby - mom would never accept the baby. He spent the nights in their bathroom. Before bedtime he would wander the house. If they went outside, Goober went outside. He was a lot of fun and grew up to be a really nice stallion (just a little spoiled).

Good luck - sounds like you're on the right track. Persistence pays off!!!

Barbie


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## ~Lisa~

Thank goodness Jill once they totally get the bowl they get it. I made up bottles of foal lac and had them in the fridge full and ready to go so all I had to do was grab one heat it up and pour it in the bowl rather then fussing with a new batch. It will last 24 hours in the fridge.

I did find that at first she really drank better when it was warm milk and that I did have to lift the bowl to her for about 24-48 hours till I could get to the point where she would see me pour it and then come and drink on her own.


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## Maxi'sMinis

I'm so glad to hear your little baby boy is coming along. You have done a wonderful job with him. He sure is such a lovely colt.


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## Basketmiss

Sounds like Trooper has found a BIG place in your heart!




Of course you cause are being his MOM! You are taking care of him and making sure he is fed, loving him, so it sounds like you just your new baby boy since Maddie isnt interested..I am glad he is getting the bowl, I hope he keeps progressing, so you can rest-keep us posted..


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## Aristocratic Minis

Jill, if you get too tired taking care of Trooper, send that dun boy TO ME!!!!


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## Jill

Again, I cannot say THANKS enough. Your tips have been great and just as much help is the moral support! You all are the best!!!

Woke up from a loooong nap to find a nearly empty bowl. Yep!!! He's got it down now and knows what to do. He is also very frisky and was bucking around in his stall. His pen is a mud mess but we let him in the yard and he ran around but it's slippery with the rain we've been getting. He still thought it was great fun.

He's eating quite a bit more than the package would indicate but maybe he is "catching up". He was shivering some this evening but it is cool and the air is very damp. I have a heavier insulated blanket on him now and fresh sawdust with 1/2 a bail of straw on top so that should help to keep him warm.

What a relief!!!

*One more question* -- I'm not having great luck finding foal lac pellets at our feed stores, though I think I can find it easy enough online However, the bag of the powder says to start that, I think at 3-4 weeks but before then you start with foal feed (I'm assuming Purina Equine Junior will be okay). So he's to be on foal feed prior to adding the foal lack pellets to the "mix". I wonder if it okay to keep him just on the formula and PEJ and not get the foal lac pellets (but continue the foal lac powder formula)?


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## Jill

Ooops! I wanted to say the "strategy" that worked for us getting him to drink from the bowl. It is a silver wide base dog bowl that should be hard to tip over and is just under 3" deep if you measure from the inside. We kept holding that to his muzzle and a couple times dipping his muzzle in for the taste of it and angling it so he had the deep end nearest his mouth. He did drink that way 2 separate times this morning before really getting it the 3rd time and drinking that first 1/2 cup straight. Since he didn't like it so much ground level and it getting bedding in it. So we put it on top of a milk crate (doesn't seem he could possibly get his feet caught in it looking at it and him). Now we put a fresh bowl in and he drinks a good part of it down, finishing the rest later.


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## Filipowicz Farm

We had a colt that mother would have nothing to do with. Walt cut out the size of the bowel on a peice of wood and then made a box and the bowel sat down in the hole this way they could not spill the milk and Stoney did not paw at the milk with his hoofs. Glad Jill that the foal learned to drink out of the bowel. Our colt drank more then the amount the package said.


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## Ashley

> He's eating quite a bit more than the package would indicate but maybe he is "catching up". He was shivering some this evening but it is cool and the air is very damp. I have a heavier insulated blanket on him now and fresh sawdust with 1/2 a bail of straw on top so that should help to keep him warm.


For what its worth, probably not much but ......

Be careful not to let him get to much as they can get the runs pretty quick on powdered milk. I would stick to what the bag or the vet recommends for him and not go over.

As for feed, I personally would add the pellets in. From the bottle babies I have seen they looked much better with the pellets mixed in than with out it. I would also keep him on it for a good six months and hopefully that will help the "look" he could develop from the powdered milk as well.


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## maplegum

Oh Jill, what a roller coaster for you!

I had a suggestion, and you are aware that my knowledge in regards to breeding is very limited but I have heard that perhaps your other mare with a foal at her side might also take on little Trooper.

I have heard that this can work quite well for some.

I feel so bad that his Mum doesn't love him.


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## chandab

Jill said:


> He's eating quite a bit more than the package would indicate but maybe he is "catching up". He was shivering some this evening but it is cool and the air is very damp. I have a heavier insulated blanket on him now and fresh sawdust with 1/2 a bail of straw on top so that should help to keep him warm.


Jill,

The question of how much came up on an equine nutrition board I'm on, the nutritionist said not to feed more than the mare is likely to produce. Its mostly a full-size horse board, but here's what he said about how much:



> Mares on average product 3% of their body weight/day in milk--and milk weighs around 8 lbs/gallon. So a 1000 lb mare will produce 30 lbs of Milk/day which is 3.75 gallons or rounded to 4 gallons/day. Since the mare would not produce anymore than this-we do not want to offer anymore liquid milk than this.





> Most foals will willingly drink more than they should--but we have to limit them to the same amount that mother nature would have.





> Mother would not have been an unlimited supply so we don't want to offer unlimited milk.


I know this is for full-size horses, but shouldn't be too hard to scale down to mini size, if you know the weight of your mare. If you want more of the conversation, PM me.


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## Jill

Thank you everyone!

I will (or H will) ask the feed store we got the Foal Lac powder from to order some of the pellets for us. That also will be good as when he can be more on those / less on formula, he can be left longer w/o a fresh bowl (since it will spoil after so long).

My milk crate idea worked until it didn't! Probably as I typed the last post, he knocked it off. But H cut some round 4x4 posts to go inside the crate and then a board to make more level platform and now we're using the milk crate, but upside down so that the bowl sits down in it some and can't be knocked off it (and the bowl is one of those no-tip kind for dogs).

Wouldn't you know it, too... one of my friends a mile away -- her mare lost a foal Tuesday and had been morning him (newborn) and trying to kidnap another foal. With everything going on, I hadn't called her until today and now the mare's milk is gone but this bowl is working now. If we'd have known earlier, it would have been a good solution possibly.

I do have a mare with a 3mos old filly, however, that mare is really a little "hot". Not very inclined to cooperate with her people, etc. My vets thought it would be a bad idea to try and get her to accept Trooper. But it is something H and I seriously concidered. If it had been a couple of my other mares, I may have tried... I even thought of trying to give Lou (foaled last year and prior -- excellent mom) Domperidone to see if that would bring milk in on a mare who had last foaled a year ago? I don't know if that would have worked, but it was something I thought of.


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## Jill

Chanda, thank you! That makes sense. But when I do the math, I'm coming up with him should be getting more than the package says for a big horse foal -- so I must be doing something wrong. I think my IQ is a bit lower now than it was Wedneday morning.

The package says for his age, a full size horse would eat 1.5 pints (3 cups) 8x a day. I wonder if I'm safe to feed him about 1/3 that amount (which was my goal but I thought that he is less than 1/3 as big as a full size horse. Maddie is "hefty" now and about 33.75". I haven't thought to measure Trooper.

Do you all think 1/3 the full size horse recommendation, which is 1 cup, every 3 hours is a good baseline for now?


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## shelly

Glad to hear he is catching on to the bowl eating!!!! I think that an average full size foal weighs between 80-100 lbs. , so 1/3 of that would make him around 25-30 lbs...sounds about right to me!!!! GOOD LUCK and give Trooper a big HUG!!!



:wub


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## Marty

Jill this happened to my friend twice who foaled her Quarter Horse mare out in my Florida barn. We did everything I swear to no avail. Finally, the first time, we ended up gently sedating the mare when banamine didn't work. I cannot remember what it was but it was not Ace or Rompin, it was something else from the vet, and once the baby began to nurse while the mare was stoned, she allowed the baby to nurse until she sobered up. We did this again for I think 2 or 3 days then it all came together and no more sedation. We also did use Bag Balm and compresses thinking she was hurting and then would massage it in and then wipe.

Second time it happened to her other mare, her mare was being a horrible witch and kicking and biting at the baby, warning him to stay away. We had to tie her up and constantly scold her for it. That worked for a short while. For that foal, we tried regular size baby bottles, one of my kids actually and foal lac formula. Foal would not latch on the baby bottle and did want to drink out of any buckets. ........We tried all kinds of buckets, but nope, would not drink out of them. Brought on a little wooden low sided salad bowl and by gosh that baby drank like it was going out of style and lived a long happy spoiled rotten life. I don't know how much or it we ever offered this was so long ago but it was a lot more than called for.

Good luck to you. Sorry you had to have this happen.


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## chandab

Jill said:


> Chanda, thank you! That makes sense. But when I do the math, I'm coming up with him should be getting more than the package says for a big horse foal -- so I must be doing something wrong. I think my IQ is a bit lower now than it was Wedneday morning.
> The package says for his age, a full size horse would eat 1.5 pints (3 cups) 8x a day. I wonder if I'm safe to feed him about 1/3 that amount (which was my goal but I thought that he is less than 1/3 as big as a full size horse. Maddie is "hefty" now and about 33.75". I haven't thought to measure Trooper.
> 
> Do you all think 1/3 the full size horse recommendation, which is 1 cup, every 3 hours is a good baseline for now?


Jill,

I do believe his information was for a slightly older foal, the mare's milk quantity increases as the foal grows, so I doubt a newborn foal would get quite that amount. And, it is also a maximum amount to feed; the discussion I pulled it from was for a full-size orphan foal that was getting free choice milk replacer (he kept eating, so they kept feeding him more, and he was upto 6 gallons/day, about 2x recommended amount and they were worried about the costs adding up quickly at that rate) and consequently getting diarrhea from too much.

I would guess about 1/3 full size horse (average 1000-1100#), too. That's how I do most of the math, at least for my minis, since they are 300-350# (almost all B-size). I don't think I'd go over 1/3 the recommended amount for a full-size foal and if he gets diarrhea from too much, you'll know to back-off a little.

Glad to hear he figured out the bowl. So much easier for you, although, you could have taken him to work and turned him into the office mascot.








Ok, I went to their website, and found the information for their foal replacer, and it says 1 gal milk per day for foal from 250# mare. Also says to start slow with half the recommended amount to start and slowly increase over a week to 10 day period to the full amount; if the foal gets diarrhea to back off the amount. Also, says to mix amount a foal should consume in 12 hours (1/2 daily amount), and make it available free choice. Allowing foal milk at all times is more natural, and will result in fewer digestive upsets. EAch time new formula is mixed, discard any milk not yet consumed and thoroughly clean the bucket before adding fresh milk replacer. [And, they don't recommend anything but milk-based feeds at this time, as the foal can not digest anything but milk at this time.]


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## minih

Jill, I don't have anything to add, you are getting lots of good advice on here, just wanted to send well wishes your way. I know this has all got to be exhausting, hang in there.


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## qtrrae

Gosh, Jill - I just now saw this thread - I am sorry you are having all these problems with Maddie.

I know it is probably "late" for suggestions but this is what happened with a friend of mine's (quarter horse mare) She was viscious to the point that she actually tried to kill her foal, their vet had them tie the mare against the side of her stall and then take a couple of boards and actually pen her in leaving room for the foal to reach under and nurse.

It sounds cruel because the mare is not able to lie down. They would put her in that position and the foal could go and nurse whenever it wanted to - within 2 days the mare was accepting her baby and became the very best of Moms.

Good luck with that precious little man - if anyone can get this to work - it will be you. He is going to be well worth all the extra effort.


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## Jill

Trooper is doing very well this morning and drinking that milk like a champ from the bowl!!!

Right now, my biggest horse wish is that Maddie is done w/ her penicillin. If you get it in the vein, it will kill the horse, so you've got to pull back. She was a pain in the butt to catch this morning out in the pouring rain and dark. I have to do the shot 2x a day and before H leaves for work as he has to hold her and I have to inject her. The first two times, I pulled back the syringe and had blood. Finally gave it in her butt muscle w/ no blood when I pulled back. She was shaking bad and is hard anyway as she knows she's getting a shot and it's like she and H are dance partners. Honestly, now we're both (me and Maddie) a nervous wreck over the penicillin shot so I'm calling the vet today and just begging that had to be the last (was to be 5-7 days of it 2x a day, this was the 10th shot so 5 full days). She's also finished a gentamicin course.

Just knowing you're giving something that could kill the horse (on the spot!), the horse not at all holding still for it, and me knowing how dangerous and what if as she's dancing around w/ it in her neck, it knocks some into the vein... no, no more. I can't.


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## FairytailGlennMinis

Oh Jill honey, I am so sorry. The exhaustion, worry and fear are just tangible in your words. I feel so bad for you, H, Maddie and Trooper. Hang in there...


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## GREENWOODMINIS

Hi Jill...I am really sorry you are going through this...I know first hand how hard something like this is...I went through the exact same thing...only our problem was our mare had no milk...so If you need any advise on getting the baby strong and healthy and the little tricks we used...or if you just need to vent or cry or even yell...call me...I totally understand...I fed our baby around the clock for 3 months- and almost lost her on two occasions...babies can go down hill very very fast when things go wrong...so...I have walked in your shoes..its tough...hang in there friend...you will all three make it through this I know...sending your prayers and good wishes!!!!!!

hugs & God Bless

lis

937 -609-0891


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## Firefall

I'm so glad to hear Trooper is learning and doing well. Maybe you can get some more naps in??????

Keep up the good work!!!


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## wc minis

So glad to hear that Trooper is eating on his own now!! Hang in there


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## RJRMINIS

So sorry Maddie wouldn't accept him, sounds like he is finally doing good with the replacer in a bowl.......My heart goes out to you, I can just imagine how exhausted you are with everything......Hoping everything gets better for you soon Jill.

{{{HUGS}}}


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## Connie P

Jill,

I am just getting back home (was out of town) but wanted to say I am praying for you and your mare and her little one.


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## Jill

Just wanted to update everyone on "Trooper"!!!

We gave up on trying to get Maddie to accept him. She was becoming more and more resentful of him, however...........

He is doing very well with drinking milk (Foal Lac formula) from a bowl. He learned to do it late Sunday morning and I think he's pretty happy to now get enough to eat! His dam had a very difficult time after his birth requiring extensive vet care. This put her "meeting him" back 4-5 hours after delivery. I think this, along with her pain, caused her to reject him but the alternative was she would have died. But, thank God, Trooper is eating well and he is VERY frisky!!!






Here he is in action and in picture. His front leg is SO much better. Still not perfect, but no comparison to how it was at birth and I feel confident it will be straight (as does our vet). His back legs are great now. In the picture and probably in some of the video, he was thinking about potty which is why he's got a hunched posture. I wish I could catch him playing in the stall on film but I cannot get far enough away from him in there to catch a video and when I look in right now, he doesn't play. I can sure see him doing it over the stall camera, though






*[SIZE=14pt]Whinny For Me's Finely Dun, a/k/a Trooper[/SIZE]*
_2009 AMHA / AMHR pending, AMHR Futurity Nominated Red Dun Colt (may grey out) -- Expected To Mature @ or under 34"_

By Erica's Gone and DunIT (AMHR Nat'l Top 10 / AMHA Honor Roll / Multi Champion) and Out of Wee Equine Acres Dun Sweet

Bloodlines include: Buckeroo, BTU, Yellow Diamond Little Feather, and Egyptian King


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## Becky

Jill, sounds like your little guy is indeed a real 'Trooper'. Glad to hear that he is surviving and hopefully thriving drinking from a bowl.

I haven't read all the posts, but you might also want to offer him a milk replacer pellet. Progressive Nutrition has one called Foals First Milk Pellets. It's to be used until the foal is 60 days of age. After that, Progressive has a product called Foals First Starter and Creep. It's a milk based pellet designed for foals from 60 days to 4 months of age. I use this one in addition to the regular diet the foals eat with their dams. It helps to transition the foals from just milk to grain. The pellets could be left out all the time and he could eat at will.

Good luck with him! Sounds like he is a survivor!


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## Marty

Jill I have some new advice: All this has had to cause you many sleepless nights. How about taking care of YOU too? Get yourself on some vitamins and Gatorade or how about a nice cup of green tea? You are definately on the right road. Trooper is coming along great so breathe........breathe......


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis

Another suggestion for you, when you start him on the pellets I would sprinkle some of the dry milk replacer over them, vet told us to give it a try with Misty when we started the switch over as a lot of foals don't like the taste of the pellets compared to the milk.. We did and at first she'd lick the powder off and spit out the pellets lol but after a few days she began nibbling more and within no time she was gobbling them up, we did keep adding the powder for a while as she got to the point where she didn't want to drink the milk anymore, would rather have the pellets and water, so our vet said it wouldn't hurt her to go ahead and keep adding the powder with the pellets until we were out..


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## Jill

[SIZE=18pt]*05/08/09 Update / Summary -- What Worked For Us*[/SIZE]

For those who may read this looking for ways to help their own rejected or orphan foal, I wanted to just give a quick like point list of what helped us the most, as we were not ever able to get Maddie to accept Trooper despite some early optimism:


From what we have read, it is best to get the baby onto a shallow bucket or bowl (best) because the bottle can get them to suck down air and also harbor bacteria more readily than buckets / bowls. We never could get Trooper to latch onto a bottle anyway.
We had the most luck with a metal 10" diameter dog bowl that from the inside was just about 3" deep. We kept holding it to Trooper's muzzle and I also took my hand and smeared his muzzle with the milk so he'd lick it off and get the taste of it. I tilted it so the deep end would be at his muzzle when I held it up to him and I did dunk his chin but never over his mouth as that could go up his nose.
The first few days, foals must have milk every 1-2 hours around the clock. After 3-4 days, you can go to about every 3 hours. Then you can stretch it to every 4. 
The foal will be less likely to put his head down into a bucket than to drink out of a more shallow bowl (thanks, Kay!).
You will have the best luck if you have a way to prop the bowl up when you leave it for the foal to drink. We used a milk crate turned upside down and "filled" it with 6 cut 4x4 posts. This was to give it weight so not to be knocked around. The bowl is the kind that is hard for dogs to tip over and we set it down on the cut posts inside the milk crate. It fits in about 2" into the crate which keeps the bowl from being slid off the surface.
Once the foal will start eating milk replacer pellets, you can go longer between milk feedings. These pellets can be fed free choice and will not spoil so long as you do not wet them.
Sprinkle milk replacer formula over pellets to get the foal more interested in them (thank you, Cristina!).
We found a limited number of brands of powder and pellets available "locally" (we traveled a wide circle of local to get what we now have on hand). Many recommended Progressive Nutrition formula and pellets to me, and I'd have gotten them but the closest dealer is about 125 miles from here.
We found Mare's Match and Foal Lac powders and pellets to be easiest to find here. We have some of each, however, the Foal Lac brand pellets are MUCH softer than the Mare's Match. If you have the same two choices, early on, go with the Foal Lac Pellets. When in doubt, try them yourself... I did and it beats the foal choking on them.
Starting at around 10 days old, foal should have free choice soft / tender / leafy hay, salt and water free choice. Fill the water bucket up to the top so foal doesn't have to stick his/her head down too far into a "scary" bucket.
EVERYONE should seriously consider buying a small bag of milk replacer to have on hand prior to foaling season. It's about $20-$25 for a 5# bag around here and unopened, it would probably be okay to cover two foaling seasons. Better to have it and not need it, than need it and not have it. Around here, feed stores are only open 1/2 a day on Saturday and closed on Sundays... plus close around 5pm week days. You could be in a bind if a foal is born off hours...

I hope no one needs this thread for a long time, however, I know if we ever have the same kind of situation, the next time will be MUCH easier thanks to what I learned on this thread and through hands on trial and error with Trooper.

*Thank You *everyone who chimed in with ideas and moral support. This was just one of the times I have seen LB members come together to help each other and it illustrates why "this place" is so great -- it has so many caring and knowledgable members!!!


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## luv2ridesaddleseat

I've meant to ask for another Trooper update! So glad he is doing so well. Of course, thats because of all your amazing care and searching so hard for the correct information to get him off to a great start in life!! Congrats Jill! You're one heck of a horse Mommy!!!


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