# Help with Carts



## RescueMini (Nov 20, 2011)

Hello all! I am pretty new to this site. Anyways, I have a 34" grade mini mare named Lulu that I am training to drive. She has been ready for the cart for the past year now, but I haven't been able to get one. I found some for sale online and I was wondering what the best type of cart was to get. I plan to do driving just for fun, and maybe go to a few open shows, so I was thinking on getting an easy entry, but I have no idea what to do when it comes to shaft lengths or brands of carts. My price range is currently around $400. Currently I have a breaking cart that I am borrowing from my neighbor. Lulu has pulled it a few times, but it just does not fit her right and is not suitable for me to show in, let alone comfortable enough for us to go on a drive. Any help is greatly appreciated!

Edit: Also, any information on what to look for in a cart is greatly appreciated!


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## Marsha Cassada (Nov 21, 2011)

I am not sure you can find a cart for $400. You can keep checking for a used one, perhaps on Craigslist or on the sale page here.

I think any of the EE carts are acceptable for local shows. I have Jerald runabout that I use for local shows, and I've seen the black metal EE carts in the ring also.

I have driven 29"-35" horses in my cart and it fits them, so I should think any cart made for a miniature would work for your girl.

There are lots more cart options now than there were when I began driving 10 years ago! I am very satisfied with my Jerald, but with so many new options I might shop around more if I were starting over.

A new driving friend just bought a metal EE. I really had never seen one up close and personal before. I don't think it would be my choice if I could only have one cart. She was looking for something light weight enough for her to handle and thought my wooden Jerald would be too heavy.

I drive for pleasure with only an occassional show. I like to take passengers, so a cart that could do that is important to me.

Good luck!


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## RescueMini (Nov 21, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> 1321905716[/url]' post='1427883']I am not sure you can find a cart for $400. You can keep checking for a used one, perhaps on Craigslist or on the sale page here.
> 
> I think any of the EE carts are acceptable for local shows. I have Jerald runabout that I use for local shows, and I've seen the black metal EE carts in the ring also.
> 
> ...


Ok, thanks! I have found several on Craigslist for $300 or less, so hopefully I will be able to get one.




Are the metal EE carts well balanced? Those are the only ones that I have found so far and I want to make sure that I make the right choice for Lulu. Thanks again for your help!


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 21, 2011)

I shopped bargain carts for quite some time. I am now in the opinion that you get what you pay for... I decided after much shopping to put a jug in my kitchen and throw money into it all winter. By March I had enough to pay for my new cart and I am so happy I waited. Having a well balanced well made cart was worth the extra time and savings.

Best wishes on your cart search. There are LB threads about carts and choices depending on what type of driving you want to do. And some warnings about cheaper carts, their seats breaking and the easy entry easy exit cart threads... Go check out some LB cart threads and happy searching and I hope you find the cart of your dreams. Driving is so much fun!!! I highly recommend it.


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## susanne (Nov 21, 2011)

Check out the CTM cart -- virtually identical to the Pioneer, but less expensive. I don't know what your shipping costs would be, but the purchase price is $415.

http://www.ctmproducts.com/HorseCarts/HorseCarts.htm

Ours has held up beautifully for three years so far, including driving in the ocean, over very rough trails, and even an unplanned leap off the roof of our van at 55mph (the seat and one wheel died, but the rest came through unscathed).

Also, keep an eagle eye on the LB Sales Board for used carts for sale. Look at your local Craigslist, too -- just check it out THOROUGHLY for rust and other problems.


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## Marsha Cassada (Nov 21, 2011)

As a PS I would be leery of a home made cart. To see if a cart is balanced, stand between the shafts and pretend you are the hrose. Have someone sit in the cart. If you feel weight, then the cart is not balanced. A well balanced cart does not put weight on the horse's back; he pulls it,he doesn't carry it.

Also, if buying a used one, be sure you have the skill and $$ to make any repairs or cosmetic changes. Something that looks like a bargain can turn into a money pit.

Not sure what a breaking cart is??


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## paintponylvr (Nov 21, 2011)

Have to chime in - but first a couple of caveats: I have somewhat larger ponies and I'm still somewhat of a beginner myself when it comes to learning about different carts. However, I've had some opportunities now to do some checking around and have tried out several EE styled carts... I own an "unbranded" sulky jog cart that I love for even long drives - it's comfy. I'm looking at other stlyes now...

Where are you located?

There is a builder in Millersburg, OH (AMISH) that doesn't have a website, but does have EE styled carts that appear to be VERY nice rides. My neighbor purchased one and it DOES ride nice. What's really cool - if the cart ever has an "accident" you can buy PARTS from them to fix the cart. Many more than the CTM ones. I think the base price is under $400 - but can't find my catalog right now, I usually just call them - they are one shop that has a phone... They have different parts you can add to the cart - rein rail, whip holder, drink holder, fenders, basket (behind and below the seat). You can upgrade (higher prices) to wooden shafts, wooden wheels, heaviear spoked/hard rubber/no air tires, wooden slats - or any combination there of. Sizes (& resulting prices) vary depending on the size of your horse. I think, at 34", your mini would drive w/ the mini cart while his is a small pony. My 40-45" ponies can go between his shafts... Tire sizes start at 20" and go to 26" (I think the wooden ones are larger).

The name of the shop is Fairview Country Manufacturing. Can I give out the number here?? The great part about Fairview - they are VERY responsive. Have a question - call. If they can't answer it, they will call you back (GREAT SERVICE). I've ordered quite a few things - had 48 hour turnaround from order to it arriving on my doorstep. They have different styles of harness too. Leather, biothane and betathane. Brass and stainless steel hardware. I met Merl in July - when I went to Millersburg over the 4th of July weekend. I can't remember the name of the other gentleman that runs the shop (Willis??)...

They will be at the Dixie Draft Horse Sale this weekend - Friday and Saturday in Troutman, NC. There will actually be a lot of Amish cart and harness makers at this sale. Last year, I talked to at least 5 different harness and vehicle builders... They had 800 ponies, minis, donkeys, mules and draft horses go thru the sale (I haven't called this year to see how many will go thru the sale this year). I'm picking up extra parts (spares - I FINALLY figured out just why you carry some extra parts, LOL) for my work harness and a new, larger collar for my 45" shetland stallion.

*******************

All that said, now I'm saving for a vehicle I can actually do some showing in - but various venues. Hard to get one vehicle to do everything!!


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## RescueMini (Nov 21, 2011)

The CTM cart looks exactly like what I am looking for! I have found a few like that for $350, but the shipping doubles that price. I wasn't quite sure on how to tell if a cart is balanced until now, so Im pretty sure that part of the troubles that we have is that the cart can become unbalanced. Thanks for the info on that! The breaking cart I have is basically just for training horses to drive. My neighbors got it for that purpose and then got a nice cart for everyday driving and shows. The Amish cart sounds wonderful, but the drive to OH is over 14 hours for me.



Thank you everyone for all of your input! I really want to get the right cart for her, especially since we have put so much effort to getting this far. Hopefully I will be able to get driving lessons from some trainers that drive at Nationals in my area. I'm relatively new to driving and all of this input is amazingly helpful!

Are Easy Entry carts pretty much the best cart for all around stuff? Like going down trails or the road and at the occasional open show?


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## susanne (Nov 22, 2011)

Beware: not all easy entry carts are the same. Be cautious of the cheap ones. I've heard of some Chinese-made carts that bend at the first bump. I've seen these on Ebay and on their own website.

JIMO, the Frontier and the CTM are the best cart in their price range. They are solidly-built and well-balanced. There are many carts superior to either of these, but the price jump is huge. I know that Sue C. is very happy with her GS Trail Cart, so you might want to check their website out as well.

I completely agree with Marsha about checking for balance on any cart, but especially homemade. Other things can also be less than ideal; I came across one on Craigslist that didn't have a singletree. I asked the seller if perhaps I just couldn't see it in the photo. She "informed" me that minis don't need singletrees. Yeah, right...didn't buy that one!

I often wish we were closer to Amish country, but alas, we're far away...


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## studiowvw (Nov 22, 2011)

Yes, I found one last year that I love and my mini loves to pull - it was a bargain at $60. I had to cut the shafts, paint it and add a singletree (it only had hooks for the traces). However, it has no springs under the seat and although I loved the way it goes, it most definitely needs a spring. My back couldn't tolerate it. We are going to add a carriage spring sometime (when my brother has time) and put on cart wheels. (So, was that a bargain? - well, sorta, but it was fun.)

Now I have another one ($435) - it's an older cart that could use refinishing but has a great spring under the seat. It is a hair too narrow (shaft space and wheel base) but is great for my current use. It's wood with a square metal tube framing. Lacey likes it although it is heavier than the other. I think with refinishing it would be ok for showing. A narrower horse would fit better between the shafts, but she likes body contact, so it works fine.

Now I'll admit that I'm not an expert, and I'm a bit eccentric - oh well!



but I've owned two of those pipe EE carts of different brands and I have a core loathing for them. No more of them will come through my revolving gate!

However, many people recommend them as entry level carts. I do wonder why so many are available for $300 (well, truthfully I don't wonder at all, haha)

Best to stick to the names mentioned earlier - maybe you will have better luck with those.

For sizing, I am told that the shaft end should come to the point of the horse's shoulder (no further), and then between the horse's tail and the crossbar there should be 10-12" of space (or was that 8-10"?)

You don't want the horse too far from the cart (more weight on the saddle) yet you need room for their legs to move out behind, and you don't want the crossbar hitting them in the bum when the cart stops.

So if you measure from the horse's shoulder to the length of where the tail is (straight back, not curving around the butt), and add 10-12 inches, you would know what length shafts you need.

Then there is your harness, which will need the right length of traces to allow the above hitching set-up.

Best to get an expert to help you! It is easy to make mistakes through being too optimistic.

Wilma


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## RescueMini (Nov 22, 2011)

Wow! This is the most help I have ever received on a forum! I'll definitely look into those carts and have them at the top of my list. How come some carts don't have singletrees and what does it take to put one on? And also, I have always wondered why some people drive without britching. Aren't they your brakes? Sorry if I sound so naive, I just want to make sure that I know everything before I make a decision on a cart and start driving. Thanks again! This is helping so much.


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## brasstackminis (Nov 22, 2011)

Lulu said:


> Wow! This is the most help I have ever received on a forum! I'll definitely look into those carts and have them at the top of my list. How come some carts don't have singletrees and what does it take to put one on? And also, I have always wondered why some people drive without britching. Aren't they your brakes? Sorry if I sound so naive, I just want to make sure that I know everything before I make a decision on a cart and start driving. Thanks again! This is helping so much.



Ok so why some drive with and without breeching. MOST of the time, the people who are driving in breed shows are seen without breeching...but if you look closer they also have a driffent type of shaft straps that wrap around the shaft. This ends up making your saddle take the stopping power, BUT makes the horse look neater because he is wearing less tack. Some things to note...there are no hills in arenas, arenas are usually fairly smooth and level, arena classes are short. Given all of these things, people feel it is worth the lack of comfort for this particular type of driving. Now if you look at harnesses with breeching, most of them come with shaft loops and a strap that attaches under the belly and does not wrap around. The shaves are free to move up, down, foreward and back making it eaiser on the horses back, but also making breeching almost a necessity. If you drive with a cart/carriage with breaks (I have seen mini EE with breaks) then breeching becomes redundant (but often still reccommended depending on what kind of driving you are doing.) That is not all the differences, but just a general discription...Did I confuse you yet? I am searching the net to see if I can find some pictures...they are supposed to be worth a thousand words right???

Karen


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## RescueMini (Nov 22, 2011)

> Ok so why some drive with and without breeching. MOST of the time, the people who are driving in breed shows are seen without breeching...but if you look closer they also have a driffent type of shaft straps that wrap around the shaft. This ends up making your saddle take the stopping power, BUT makes the horse look neater because he is wearing less tack. Some things to note...there are no hills in arenas, arenas are usually fairly smooth and level, arena classes are short. Given all of these things, people feel it is worth the lack of comfort for this particular type of driving. Now if you look at harnesses with breeching, most of them come with shaft loops and a strap that attaches under the belly and does not wrap around. The shaves are free to move up, down, foreward and back making it eaiser on the horses back, but also making breeching almost a necessity. If you drive with a cart/carriage with breaks (I have seen mini EE with breaks) then breeching becomes redundant (but often still reccommended depending on what kind of driving you are doing.) That is not all the differences, but just a general discription...Did I confuse you yet? I am searching the net to see if I can find some pictures...they are supposed to be worth a thousand words right???
> 
> Karen



Ok, this clears things up. I never knew that about the show harnesses. My harness would need to be used with breeching then. One more question, how do you tell if the breeching fits? I think the breaching is too small for Lulu, but the rest of the harness fits her perfectly. But yes, pictures are worth a thousand words and would be great! One of the trainers that I talked to when I asked about breeching said that it simply wasn't necessary and didn't go any further into explanation, so this is really helpful.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 24, 2011)

The breeching hanger straps should be adjusted so that the breeching sits towards the bottom of the flat of the horses buttocks when it is in play. If it is too high the breeching is in danger of slipping up under the horse's tail which could be disastrous and if it is too low it could slip down scooping the horses back legs out from under him on a hill which could also be disastrous. The holdback straps should be adjusted so that you can fit the width of your hand (or with some Minis the width of a couple fingers) between the breeching and the horse when he is standing on flat ground. If it is too loose it can allow the cart to slap into the horse when stopping and if it is too tight it will bother the horse possibly causing him to buck when he attempts to move and at the very least it will inhibit his gaits.

From the sound of it you are not terribly knowledgeable about driving or hitching or harnessing a horse properly and I would suggest that you find someone who is to help you out with hitching your horse for at least the first time. While we can help you out with the basic mechanics of harnessing here it is imperative that your harness be properly adjusted for your specific horse and that we can't do sight unseen here on the forum. While photos of your harnessed horse can be helpful it doesn't come anywhere close to hands on help. Read the thread about the runaway on here that was apparently caused by the backstrap being too short something that could easily be seen at hand but not seen in a photo necessarily. That scenario luckily ended well but could easily have ended VERY badly.


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## RescueMini (Nov 24, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> 1322147707[/url]' post='1428581']The breeching hanger straps should be adjusted so that the breeching sits towards the bottom of the flat of the horses buttocks when it is in play. If it is too high the breeching is in danger of slipping up under the horse's tail which could be disastrous and if it is too low it could slip down scooping the horses back legs out from under him on a hill which could also be disastrous. The holdback straps should be adjusted so that you can fit the width of your hand (or with some Minis the width of a couple fingers) between the breeching and the horse when he is standing on flat ground. If it is too loose it can allow the cart to slap into the horse when stopping and if it is too tight it will bother the horse possibly causing him to buck when he attempts to move and at the very least it will inhibit his gaits.
> 
> From the sound of it you are not terribly knowledgeable about driving or hitching or harnessing a horse properly and I would suggest that you find someone who is to help you out with hitching your horse for at least the first time. While we can help you out with the basic mechanics of harnessing here it is imperative that your harness be properly adjusted for your specific horse and that we can't do sight unseen here on the forum. While photos of your harnessed horse can be helpful it doesn't come anywhere close to hands on help. Read the thread about the runaway on here that was apparently caused by the backstrap being too short something that could easily be seen at hand but not seen in a photo necessarily. That scenario luckily ended well but could easily have ended VERY badly.


That makes sense. I have a knowledgeable neighbor who has been helping me hitch Lulu, so I won't be trying anything alone anytime soon.



I have had people fit her harness, but they didn't fit the breeching, which concerned me as everything around me has hills. Thank you for explaining that!


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## Sue_C. (Nov 25, 2011)

Check out G & S Carts.

I bought the "Trail Cart", with the 24" metal wheels, with a set of interchangeable 24" wire wheels to use when footing is too deep for the metal ones; and it fits my 33.50" mare perfectly. I love my cart!!! He will customize it to suit you, as well...I had my shafts made a bit wider than usual, (20" at the tugs) as I find the regular shafts of most carts are too narrow to allow for the thicker profile of the "Super V" collar and buckle-in traces...I would think the same would go for any buckle-in traces. I also opted for the brake assembly, but haven't installed it yet so cannot give you a review on them.


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## RescueMini (Nov 25, 2011)

Ok, thanks! I'll check it out!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 25, 2011)

You've gotten very good advice so far so I won't repeat it.







RescueMini said:


> How come some carts don't have singletrees and what does it take to put one on? And also, I have always wondered why some people drive without britching. Aren't they your brakes?


Breeching is your brakes, yes. Even if you have brakes I'm still not comfortable going without the breeching cross-country because what if the brakes failed or I was thrown from the cart and couldn't use them??



I drive hard over difficult terrain and I don't ever want my cart running up on the horse.

Some carts don't have singletrees because the manufacturers are either cheap or stupid. Certain jog carts don't but that's because they are so very light that the horse really doesn't have to pull and there's little chance of soring the animal. For a heavier vehicle which needs one but doesn't have it all you'd need to do is get the singletree itself, the bracket that holds it, bolts to attach the bracket to the cart, and a set of dog collars or other nylon straps to keep the singletree from swinging around and whacking the horse if one of the traces should break or slide off the end.



RescueMini said:


> One more question, how do you tell if the breeching fits? I think the breaching is too small for Lulu, but the rest of the harness fits her perfectly.


The breeching should be long enough that the rings come to the flank area on each side, the hipstrap should hang straight up and down without being pulled either forward or back, and should be long enough to allow the breeching to hang on the meaty part of the hindquarters below the point of the buttock but well above the hollow where the rear muscling visually joins the hind leg. A short breeching will do the job but look bad however one that hangs too high or too low puts the horse at risk of an incident. Thankfully that part is fairly easily adjusted! The short breeching can't be fixed and will require exchanging the part to make it look right.

Leia


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## RescueMini (Nov 25, 2011)

> The breeching should be long enough that the rings come to the flank area on each side, the *hipstrap should hang straight up and down without being pulled either forward or back*, and should be long enough to allow the breeching to hang on the meaty part of the hindquarters below the point of the buttock but well above the hollow where the rear muscling visually joins the hind leg. A short breeching will do the job but look bad however one that hangs too high or too low puts the horse at risk of an incident. Thankfully that part is fairly easily adjusted! The short breeching can't be fixed and will require exchanging the part to make it look right.


Ok, this basically describes the breeching I have for her. I can get it to sit in the correct position, but where the hipstrap attaches too far back along the breeching, making it look odd. I haven't quite figured out why it is like that as I bought her harness brand new and the rest fits her perfectly. Maybe all the jumping that she does has made her hindquarters too big!



I will have to post pictures as soon as I can get my iPad to cooperate. Should I be looking for new breeching then? Or will it work for everyday driving and the occasional open show?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 25, 2011)

RescueMini said:


> Ok, this basically describes the breeching I have for her. I can get it to sit in the correct position, but where the hipstrap attaches too far back along the breeching, making it look odd. I haven't quite figured out why it is like that as I bought her harness brand new and the rest fits her perfectly. Maybe all the jumping that she does has made her hindquarters too big!
> 
> 
> 
> I will have to post pictures as soon as I can get my iPad to cooperate. Should I be looking for new breeching then? Or will it work for everyday driving and the occasional open show?


Pictures are good! Does the breeching sit level or does it tip forward or back? If it sits level and the hip strap isn't too extremely far back you're probably okay. If it tips obnoxiously or visually throws off your horse's proportions, you may want to see if the company will exchange it. Most horses will have at least one piece that doesn't fit right out of the box!



Sounds like for your girl it's the breeching.

Leia


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## RescueMini (Nov 25, 2011)

> Pictures are good! Does the breeching sit level or does it tip forward or back? If it sits level and the hip strap isn't too extremely far back you're probably okay. If it tips obnoxiously or visually throws off your horse's proportions, you may want to see if the company will exchange it. Most horses will have at least one piece that doesn't fit right out of the box!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I will have to check. I didn't think about grabbing the camera when I ground drove her today! Its harder to tell now with her getting the winter fuzzies. I believe from this fall when I hooked her to the training cart it tipped forward a little, but that's just from memory. Ill see what i can do for pictures. Thanks for all of your help!


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