# Won't Go Forward



## jeanniecogan (Oct 21, 2013)

Hi Everyone, I am back after a long sabatical.

I have been away from driving for about 6 years. I sold my last riding horse and bought a mini stud. His name is Charlie. he is 4 years old. 

i bought him as a trained driving horse. Yes , he was trained, about 5 days worth. He has been great and have had no problem with him. Then the other day i harnessed him up and got in the cart and he wouldn't move. i couldn't make him move , though i did not hit him or anything. I figure he is testing me and i wanted some advice before i try it again.

In the meantime , i am working on the 7 games (Parelli). and i am hoping it will help. So ladies and gentlemen I am counting on you for some advice. jeannie


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 22, 2013)

There could be a number of reasons why Charlie refused.I usually find when a horse refuses it is hurting, frightened or (most commonly) confused. Doing ground work is *always* a good idea and besides what you are already doing you might consider ground driving before you hitch to establish your right to decide when he goes and when he stops etc. A short ground driver before hitching may be just the warm up he needs. You may want to double check your harnessing to be sure there is nothing causing physical discomfort and if the problem continues have his teeth checked and be sure he is sound. It does sound like he has very limited experience in harness which suggests confusion to me, so getting someone to help you may be in order. If you can find a header they can help him by leading him (use a lead and halter as well as a headstall) forward when you ask him to walk on. Other than that only 2 things come to mind, sometimes you can unstick his feet by asking him to step to the side before moving ahead - and use the whip. I do not mean beat him with it but you can flick his hip firmly when you are sure it is just him being stubborn/lazy/testing and demand he move ahead. A flick with the whip is nothing compared to what would happen if a dominant horse were to tell him to move and he did not. Remember, when you are riding you can use your body weight and your legs to insist the horse move but when you are driving you only have your voice and whip, don't handycap yourself by ignoring your whip.


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## madmax (Oct 22, 2013)

I read in your post that he has had 5 days of training in the cart? That is such a short time............I always spent several weeks of basics in ground training before I ever hitched up any of my horses, I always wanted to develop their trust in me and my trust in them to be safe to drive.

I go along with reignmaker that you should probably spend time with him in ground work first, it will pay off in the long run. Even if he has had that, a refresher course would be good. It doesn't sound to me like he is testing you - If he is, working with him even in the halter with side passing for example, would be beneficial.

Good luck with him. What a pretty boy.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 22, 2013)

I'm confused with the five days of training. Five days? Unless you meant five months, there is no way I would consider that to be trained.

I'd suggest you find some help to get both of you trained better


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## jeanniecogan (Oct 22, 2013)

Thank you all for yourvery good advice. while working with him i am also checking out his harness and cart. I widened the shafts, they were only 13 inches apart and i thought the harness was crammed in between him and the shaft.

Also, yes he only had 5 days of actual cart experience. I took possession of him when we went camping after driving him 4 times myself. he was perfect. a very sweet little guy.

I am also looking at him being bored with my arena and think about taking him out of there and riding around the property.

I plan on trying some of these things tomorrow and i will let you know how it works out. THANKS AGAIN FOR ALL YOUR ADVICE . I feel that i am on the right track. jeannie


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 23, 2013)

He needs more time. By the way, my trainer LOVES horses that STOP when they don't know what to do. This is a good thing.

You need to go back to basics. start over, and go slow and bring him forward into his confidence zone again. Force him and you might force a wreck.

I would get somebody to check your harness and hookup and fit of every piece you put on him including your cart. Then start over and find the point at which he has confidence again. I would not put the cart to until you have everything just right.


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## targetsmom (Oct 23, 2013)

Good advice so far. We happen to have 3 minis that have about that same amount of experience in the cart but have been ground driven for MONTHS by our 4-Hers. For horses that green in the cart I ALWAYS ground drive for a bit before I hook them. Also, I wonder what else changed between the time you drove him before and now? Was he driven with other horses before and now he is by himself? Maybe it is the arena he doesn't like. Are you trying to turn him sharply? Any of those things could affect his willingness to move out. Again, having several minis at this stage myself, there will be times when they might get "stuck" for a moment, but I am at a point at home where I still have people around who can help me get them "unstuck". They are still having a bit of trouble with sloping ground and tight corners. With so many in training, I try to ground drive them on days when I can't get them hooked and all time in the harness seems to help. And like your new boy, they are all dealing with a new handler with a different amount of contact, because the 4-Hers tended to not use much contact. BTW, I don't have an arena to drive in so I am driving in an enclosed - but not perfectly level - pasture for safety.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 23, 2013)

After five days he is still being trained and I would still be ground driving before hitching, just to re-establish the basics.....like moving forward when you say "walk on"!!! You might consider ground driving him when he is hitched up, too, so two lots of ground driving before you actually enter the cart- I find this makes me more confident as I choose the moment for asking for a good halt and stand, and getting in, when *I* am ready.....


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## jeanniecogan (Oct 23, 2013)

Well, i should have made myself more clear. I was being sarcastic about the 5 days. It was true, but i knew it wasn't "trained". I said that i drove him 4 times before taking possession and so that made 9 drives he had. He was soooo good and soooo sweet and willing that i just had to ha ve him . 

As i said before , i was hunting for the problem. I shortened and widened the shafts. i took 5 inches off, they were 56 inch shafts. I also examined his harness and readjusted it. he just had a physical and i had the vet check everything like wolf teeth , etc. he passed that. 

So today i went out and ground drove him and then hooked him up. i unhooked the halteer and got in , the way i always do. i asked him to walk on and " he did!!!!!. he was perky but not out of control . he leaned into the harness really well. I am convinced that the shafts were the problem. too long, and way too narrow. I think he was pulling with the tugs as described somewhere else and this time he could really lean into the breast collarand be more comfy. They were only 13 inches at the narrowest point. Charlie is a 39 in mini. i widened the shafts to 16 inches and all his harness parts were no longer bunched up under the shafts. I will keep you posted on his progress, and will keep all the great advice in mind so if i have anymore problems i will have a list of things to try. just love this little guy. THANKS AGAIN SOOO MUCH. jeannie


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 23, 2013)

If you dare to post a photo of your hookup there are excellent folks here that will help critique your harness and adjustments and cart fit.

They helped me so much with my mini. If you take side shots, and from the front and looking down from the top, (somebody holding your boy of course, or with you in the cart holding the reins and have somebody else do the photography for safety sake)... you can get plenty of help from here if you reach out and ask.

I spent 6 months on my feet line driving during the training phase, but much of that might have been training me as much as training the horse. 
If he is leaning hard into the harness you might still have some adjustment to make. Breast collar for instance if too high or too low can make pulling difficult and make your horse scramble and pull. Tugs too high can make the cart unbalanced, cart should float behind the horse with somebody sitting in it. 
Britching too tight or loose, or anything bunched under the shafts can cause major pulling and safety issues. My instructor made me work every piece of harness and trace to very specific specifications and balance over and over again until I got it right. I was not allowed to get in the cart and drive until I had every bit of harness done up right.

My boy does not lean into the collar unless going up a hill, even out of shape, he pulls like he is pulling nothing behind him.

Hope you get it worked out! thanks for sharing your experience.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 25, 2013)

Well done, btw, for seeking the problem, rather than just blaming the horse.

Even at nine drives- heck, even at 29, the horse is obviously still very green. I think the ground driving just will give both you and him the confidence to get down to work.


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## jeanniecogan (Oct 27, 2013)

I've taken one of the suggestions and am posting some pictures of Charlie with the harness and cart and shafts all the way i think they should be. However, I am open to any constructive criticism. 

I apologize for the condition of the harness. it was nice and clean when i put it on him but right now it is dusty and cold and the harness looks like it was stored in the dirt. 

by the way, we had a nice drive after the photo op. he seems to be much more comfortable but i am still open to making it perfect. 

thanks in advance for any and all advice.


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## happy appy (Oct 27, 2013)

I'm new at this but I would think that the cart is a little too small for him. The shafts seem to be very snug to his shoulders and he seems to be quite close to the cart. Also the breechin seems a little tight, could just be the way that he is standing. I would probably drop his breast plate a hole or so. Hard to tell with the pad on it though but it looks a little high on his neck. Cute guy and nice cart!


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## AnnaC (Oct 28, 2013)

I was also going to say about the breeching being a bit close and the shafts being a little tight, but I'm not experienced with driving and harnesses, just remembering from a short stint several years ago.

Good looking little chap!


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 28, 2013)

Ditto, cant be sure with the blue fuzzy but the collar might should come down a bit. I line up the leather with the point of the shoulder. Britching looks a bit tight, should be able to get a hand between britching and butt and where it drops down angle wise from where it is but hard to tell, might just be how he is standing in photo, where it is attached to top (hard to describe) but should fall in more of a straight line down from the hip and it also looks like the britching might be a hole low on his butt.

Your saddle tips and looks a bit forward, but looks much like mine does on my boy, I can never get my saddle aligned straight up like my trainer likes it due to my boys conformation. I understand from my trainer that the saddle on a driving horse does not go up on the withers like my saddle did on my riding horse.

Hard to tell with winter fuzzys the fit of the shafts, my cart disappears into my boys hair in winter and looks tight when it is not. and make sure you can get a finger in the throatlatch on the bridle. In winter much of the adjustment is by feel.

as a side note, I would find some way to buckle the reins into keepers for safety.

He is very cute and looks very nice in harness. I don't see much more than tweeking needed on your set up, hoping some of the more experienced folks write in their opinion. best wishes and thanks for posting photos, so educational for all drivers on this forum.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 28, 2013)

akk, I just typed out a long post then lost the dang thing!

Here is a condensed version.

Overall I think you have done a pretty decent job of harnessing. Unlike others I would say your breast strap placement is okay. I would however advise putting the (buckle) end of the rein thro the keeper as shorthorse pointed out. Too easy to loose a rein that way. The britchen does seem pretty tight and should not be snug to the horse except for braking and backing. You might try either moving the saddle back behind his whithers or loosening the back strap a hole, as long as that doesn't leave the crupper hanging loose. The cruppers job is to keep the saddle from moving forward so if it is loose the saddle will have too much play so there will be more motion (and friction) under his tail, ouch. Or letting the wrap straps out a bit to allow 2 or 3 fingers between his haunches and the britchen when he is not using it. Lengthening the back strap(or moving the saddle position) will have the effect of moving the hanger straps for the britchen back a bit thus making them hang more straight up and down. Also if you have any room left to do so I would move the traces to the next slot thus moving the horse ahead a bit. The rule of thumb I use is 10" between the tail and the single tree. Hope all this makes some sense, I explained it better the first time but am to lazy to retype what I had lol Please know I am only offering thoughts on what I think I see in the photos, its not always really clear to me what I am seeing and may be mistaken, since you are the one there you will have to trust your own judgement as to whether we are giving useful info or not. Great looking guy BTW.


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## jeanniecogan (Oct 28, 2013)

Thank you again everyone, First i would like to explain that the rein that is not in the keeper is because of the old stiff fingers, the leather is stiff and they did not allow enough room to put it in the keeper easily. i have to use needle nos pliers. bummer, but i will get it done or change reins.

The breeching was too tight, i will fix that and he is 12 inches from the single tree. i have an extension for the traces so i will try that.

The breast collar is shaped and it is wide, i believe it is in the right place , i spent a lot of time trying to adjust it properly.

i will tweek these things and take more pictures.

i did take him for a drive after taking the pictures and he moved so much more easily. he was struggling before. so we are making progress, thanks again.

by the way, i always look for pics of minis in harness so i can check. i took lessons a long time ago and do worry about his comfort. jeannie


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 29, 2013)

Your harness is different than mine. My strap that hooks my tug onto my leather does not buckle into the girth like that. It is buckled and ended and a separate strap that comes out from the bottom of the tug is what buckes to my girth.

Get somebody to take a photo of you in the cart with him pulling. Does your tug pull back with the cart at an angle? With that single piece of over leather not in a keeper and then used to buckle in the girth, looks like if you got enough backward pull when going up a hill, you might could possibly separate the tug from the harness, especially if things are a bit stiff and older (just my opinion). I would be interested in knowing if that is typical hook up, I only have two sets of harness and both of mine are like I described with two straps. I am sure yours is designed like it was supposed to be because of the longer strap of course, but it does look different enough to comment on, but I am not being negative, just learning.

My trainer lectures me about safety so forgive me, I am not being critical, just offering some tips I have heard in my lessons. My trainer says if it is too stiff to go in the keeper, it needs replacing. If I have anything she is not completely satisfied she might even have me take a couple of wraps of electrical tape which is a pain, but I do it. I would replace the reins, they are cheap safety. I had an amish shop make me nice braded reins and a set of flat leather reins I use, I have two sets and keep them nice and soft and easy to buckle.

you will love new reins. Leather has come a long way and they are soft as butter brand new.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 29, 2013)

I'm not sure if I am looking at the same parts you are shorthorsemom, but if I am; this harness has what I know as an 'overgirth' rather than wrap straps. Both are designed to prevent the tugs (the loops that carry the shafts) from lifting and both work for that purpose quite well. The wrap strap I believe is more poplular with show ring drivers who like to hold the shafts hard to the saddle and will also offer some braking help when fastened tightly. In the show ring this configuration will help to make up for the lack of breeching. I have harnesses of both types, am more accustomed to using wrap straps (what I started with) but find for the type of driving I do (breeching is always used) the overgirth is perhaps better for the horse's comfort and speed of hitching.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 29, 2013)

I have only ever used the type of tugs pictures and yes, they are very safe, in fact I would not buy a harness with the "tie down" kind of tug straps- European harness is never made that way, so unless I was importing it would not be a problem anyway. I think the horse is merely a little too far back in the shafts, I don't think the cart is too small, everything else seems to fit! I agree the breeching needs tweaking, but, in your pictures, it is up one side and down the other- obviously it has slipped, but it really shouldn't so you might want to check why it did that. I agree about the reins- the quietest horse can be upset by a rein breaking and you do not yet have the quietest horse, so it could be a real disaster- get a new set, they aren't that expensive. Overall he looks really good, well done, and kudos for caring about him so much.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 29, 2013)

Hi, this is helping me understand... No I dont use tie wraps on my harness either. I am attaching a photo, please forgive... we were still tweeking my harness during this photo session and I don't have all my adjustments where I want them, but if you blow it up, you can see how my tug is attached and has a buckle end showing but the part that buckles into the overgirth part the leather piece comes out of the bottom of the tug. In her harness, the buckle part comes down over the tug and buckles below. must just be style now that you all are explaining it helps alot. I was curious about the different design from the only harness I have. I wouldn't use the old tie down style either.

Love when folks include photos and I love the feedback on the harness questions. I study everything and am still learning. thanks!


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 29, 2013)

We are all still learning shorthorsemom, or should be.




I have not seen an overgirth that has the actual buckle on the strap that comes up from below but the end result is the same. I do use a harness that employs wrap straps (one of my best made working harnesses) but the only time those straps have ever been used to hold the shafts hard and fast is when I went to a clinic and the clinician, while very knowledgeable, was from the breed show world and 'fixed' my harnessing mistake.



My steadfast mare had a bucking fit that day, it was only later that I came to the conclusion that it was probably her way of objecting to that. She probably felt trapped and did not like pulling from her saddle.


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## jeanniecogan (Oct 30, 2013)

Wow, what a thing i started. This is wonderful, I am learning sooo much . i will still take more pictures and yes i will get rid of those reins.


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 30, 2013)

Yep Jennie, you started a great string. By the way, my hands are somewhat wrong in that photo. I tend to drop my right hand while holding the too heavy and too long whip and this lesson photo was still early on for me, I still consider myself a newbie and will be forever learning and strings like these I really enjoy.

I try to remember to keep tension on my left rein when I make a right turn and my trainer made me work with her being the horse instead of a real horse and I had to drive her around the pasture to fix my hands. It was funny but got the point across and didn't drive my boy crazy in the process. Photos are terrific for re examination of style and posture and hookup.

I havent driven lately, that is last summer photo. My neighbor started a shooting range and my boy is not steady enough for my green experience to be out driving when those explosions go off and I am a bit spread thin to keep my driving consistant. . When I do start back driving again, you can bet I will have my trainer here helping me get over the hump of "time off and no driving". I am planning to start back line driving soon though, I don't hook to my cart unless my trainer is here. I was really glad she was helping out when I forgot about my left rein, dropped contact on a right turn when my boy was acting silly and he threw in a buck and got his leg over the shaft. It turned out ok and taught me a great lesson in a controlled environment as to how what I do affects my boy. He is not bomb proof, but he tries hard..

take care and keep writing folks.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 30, 2013)

shorthorsemom, have you considered setting up a rein board to practice rein handling while you are not driving. They are pretty simple to make and might help you feel the mistakes and train your hands between drives somewhat. If you drop contact the weight will let you know and you can practice fixing your hand in the correct position. I find it works best for me when I close my eyes (don't ask me why - just me maybe) and then let myself believe I an sitting in a cart (a stool or chair is my imitation) and driving thro a set of cones. I can feel what is needed to cue the turns while maintaining contact and feel when I don't accomplish that.

- and I agree, Jeannie, this is a very good thread. For me, I find it useful to think about the questions that come up, helps to clarify things I wasn't aware I was not entirely clear on.


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## MyMiniGal (Oct 30, 2013)

Is there a picture of a "rein board"? In a few weeks, I am going to start ground driving Halo, but would love to practice at home, when I can't do it with her. Or is the rein board something that would be practiced after you add a cart to the situation?


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 30, 2013)

My trainer talked about a rein board and I would love to see a photo of one. She suggested me using one but for the life of me I don't know how to make one. I tried tying my reins to the fence and that was just too funny cause the fence didn't give. Im such a nerd. haha.

Funny thing is that I do ok with cones with my hands and my guy loves cones, but he hates ring work and thats where we pretty often have our issues. My hand boo boos and he is very watchful for an excuse to keep me on my toes in the ring. You can tell by his face he doesnt enjoy it, but out on trails and with cones he lights up and loves it. He does give my trainer some trouble in the ring too, so it isn't just my hands and experience. He just doesn't enjoy it. I would skip ring work all together, but really need a place to warm up before heading into wide open spaces.

I could benefit from a more push button horse but I love my little boy. He has funny stumpy legs, is chubby and lacks decent conformation, but I love him to pieces even with his funny and often strange and sometimes crabby personality. He has character and I don't care how he is put together, he is my buddy.

thanks reignmaker. You all get me thinking about starting driving again. Its nice to talk about how much fun it was. for now my boy and i just take farm walks together.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Oct 30, 2013)

I'm sure if you do a search you could find a picture of a rein board either on LB or on line but the simplest one I've seen is a board with 2 pulleys attached about a foot apart (somewhere about how the reins would be spaced coming back from your horse's bit). A rope is run thro the pulleys with a weight (I'm not sure of the exact weight but probably about 2 lbs - go with what feels right to you I can't recall the exact weight, perhaps someone else does) - of some kind on the board side of the pulleys (does that make sense?) the ropes are only about 3 ft long and they have a loop on my end where I fasten my set of reins in (honestly I use a pair of riding reins rather than my driving reins since I don't need to sit way way back. This board is then fastened to a fence board or a wall (indoors lets you play pretend when the weather is sucky lol)

shorthorsemom, I love that you are happy with your guy even with his imperfections



. We all dream of having a perfect horse but the imperfect ones teach us far more and personality counts for a lot in my book too. My favourite gelding is known to be a PITA because he's a thinker, steals things (gloves/hats/tools) and just generally looks for ways to add some interest to his life which is sometimes like the old Chinese curse "may you live in interesting times" LOL. In spite of his habit of often making more work for me I adore him. He is never dull and like you and your guy we are buds.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 1, 2013)

If you look carefully you will see that the tug is actually a separate bit all on it's own and the strap that goes over the top allows the tug to adjust up and down- does that make sense? This is also a sliding backband- I would not use a fixed backband on a two wheel, except on a very, very level surface or in the show ring.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 1, 2013)

It might be clearer in this picture, not sure...


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## jeanniecogan (Nov 2, 2013)

The reinboard should not have too much weight on the rein ends. you want to be light in your hands. i used one years ago. if you can't figure it out use a chairback in lthe house. you can just loop them over (without pulleys) and the whole idea is to see what your hands are doing and how it feels to your horse. sort of.

As for the shaft loops, i understand it now. both of my harness' have them. 

Also, I tried a different harness on him and the tugs were a little longer and it seemed everything you were talking about started to line up. will get some pictures soon. having a little health issue right this minute. 

Im really excited. i am getting a 4 wheel runabout next week. I am going crazy trying to figure whether to stain it or paint it and what color.

any ideas? I am getting it because i have grand kids i want to drive around and my Lignite cart is a one person cart. so i don't know whether to make it colorful or stain it?? any ideas. be back soon


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## jeanniecogan (Nov 11, 2013)

Want you all to know that my friend got the rein in the keeper for me. i do like those reins , they are cotton. pictures coming next week.


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