# WHY BREED MORE AND MORE HORSES



## Celeste (Dec 14, 2007)

*Thousands upon thousands of horses are slaughtered every year yet breeders, whether registered or not are constantly breeding more and more! I just need to ask why when so many end up as dog food?*

If only reputable horse breeders were to stop breeding for one year it would make a big difference to the horse overpopulation




....


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## LowriseMinis (Dec 14, 2007)

How many horses from reputable breeders are going to wind up at slaughter, as opposed to those strictly pet horses or backyard bred horses or race track castoffs or old, used up ranch horses?

If ALL reputable breeders stopped breeding for a year, how many people would wind up purchasing from BAD breeders?

The same questions could be asked about dogs and shelters, actually.


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## txminipinto (Dec 14, 2007)

Well, to start, it's hard to slaughter horses (legally) when there are no slaughter houses that take horses. Here in Texas, the slaughter of horses has (unfortunately - that's another soap box) been banned.

YES, the horse population as a whole outnumbers the available homes. Why do big breeders breed? For the almighty dollar. Why do smaller breeders (like myself) breed? To improve our own programs and for the almighty dollar. Search this topic and I'm sure you'll find several. It seems someone needs to thump their chests every now and then (sorry it's almost 4am and I'm at work - excuse the grumpyness). It's unfortunately up to each individual breeder to regulate their output. I plan to breed my mares back in '08, however, depending on who I still have from the '07, '08, '09 foaling seasons I may not breed any back for 2010. But, I only have 2 mares that I breed so that's probably not the answer to your question.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

If I stopped breeding it would have NO affect on the horses going to slaughter ( and we still have many licensed slaughterers here, thank God)

None of my horses has ever gone alive to slaughter.

(Our horses are passported and we can write that in- a horse cannot go for slaughter without a "clean" passport)

Because I only bred maybe one or two Arabs a year, and have at top numbers only bred eight Minis a year I am able to keep tabs on them for the most part.- I also happen to know that even when horse ,eat was at a premium the Knacker only took the REALLY big (by out standard) horses and then, nine times out of ten, they were resold (I would actually rather have had them dead, controversial, I know, but, if you saw the alternatives at the time....)

I have seen auctions through to the end and I have never seen Minis go specifically for slaughter, it is not economic.

So....slowing down on the breeding would definitely slow down the abuse, but the slaughter??

I honestly do not think Minis are hugely contributing to that.


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## Jill (Dec 14, 2007)

OR how about people really doing their homework before slapping together a breeding herd and starting to turn out foals?

This is my biggest pet peeve with this breed -- someone buys their first mini and a year later, they're breeders. Some of these "breeders" wouldn't even know good conformation if it somehow got the chance to eat their hay. Lots more of them just overlook the mamoth, low slung necks (how supple will those horses ever be?), poor tailsets, coarse heads, and other things that may not be bad conformation but sure doesn't make for a pretty overall picture.

Everyone has their own opinions, ways and horses. For me, it just is an awesome responsiblity to be the cause of bringing an animal into the world that may live for 30 or more years! To me, it is really important to do what you can to make sure the horse is good quality (and to me, that means both conformation and type).

I've had horses for 13 years and minis for 8 years, which is a drop in the bucket compared to some of us here. I started out having a couple as pets (1), then got into driving (2), then got into showing and serious learning about type and conformation (3), then built up the caliber of my show horses (4), and THEN made changes to create a herd I feel optimistic about breeding (5). I would not have been able to really have a chance at the quality I want in foals and the future generation if I had started breeding back when I first got into minis.

To date, my one home bred foal actually happened because a good friend wanted to breed a mare of hers that I liked a lot to my show stallion. I let her but soon after, she had to sell the mare so I bought her. The foal is now a senior gelding that I still own, and I showed him from home (no trainer) to multiple halter championships at registry and local shows.

2008 will be my first foal crop, and I may have as many as five (5). That is A LOT for me, but I have dreamed and planned for this seriously since 2004 and it is finally "time".


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## hahler (Dec 14, 2007)

With what dan and i do we see alot of "power breeders" as we call them.

but we also see alot of people that breed controled (not all the brood mares every year)

since we are getting into the mini business we are going to concentrate on geldings and if we have a good stud it will be in a controled enviroment

dawn

And yes the slaughter plant controversy is another can of worms that i have posted about in other threads


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Dec 14, 2007)

Celeste, I ahve been saying the same as you for the past few years. I have 30 mares, and have not breed for the past 2 years, prior to that I was very selective and only bred 2-4 mares a year.Some of my mares, I would not use for breeding, as I dont think the quality is there, but there "pets now" and wont be going anywhere where they could be used for breeding. I think if everyone would just plain stop buying from the "backyard breeder or mini mills" it would help. The backyard breeder might only have a very few mares and breed yearly,but I do think they care a little more then the mini mills, which from what I have seen and IMO dont give a hoot and breed everything and anything, and then when they cant sell foals they drop the prices so low, which in turn makes it bad for all of us. Not to mention they stick the bare necessissities into there poor horses. It doesnt take alot of intellegence to figure out WHO is breeding everything every year. Just look at the sites it pretty much says a whole lot. Every animals they own is bred, regardless if its a dog or horse, or whatever.


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## Margaret (Dec 14, 2007)

I am also observing a lot of larger breed horses needing rescue lately. Perhaps because they require alot more feed to sustain..

Many people that start out in the large horse breeds end up with miniature horses for various reasons. Some because they are easier to manage.

Also some thing for a breeder to consider before rebreeding is, did all of your horses go to *good financially stable homes * or did they have to be auctioned off to be sold?

It is important to see a solid demand for what you are producing before continuing to produce more, otherwise you could be adding to the problem.

If my offspring did not sell to good reliable homes this year, there would have been be no rebreeding for next year.


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 14, 2007)

QUESTION ?

I stopped breeding dogs right as AKC started offering non breeding papers.

Can those of you who breed dogs tell us if that helped.

It could be something for AMHA & AMHR to look at. I don't think it would stop backyard breeders, but maybe it would improve prices for show breeders.

BTW My neighbor is with Harris County Sheriff livestock and he says since the slaugher houses closed they are seeing more horses dumped places but the starvation issues haven't changed.


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## CLC Stables (Dec 14, 2007)

Banning slaughter houses for equine was a big mistake on the part of the government.............we won't see the MAJOR effects for years, but it is going to snowball, and OH MY is all I can say.


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## Jill (Dec 14, 2007)

CLC Stables said:


> Banning slaughter houses for equine was a big mistake on the part of the government.............we won't see the MAJOR effects for years, but it is going to snowball, and OH MY is all I can say.


Sadly, I think you are right.

Vickie, I'd also love it if the registries would let breeders register horses as non-breeding, and to also allow subsequent owners to change a horse's status to non-breeding and for that to be stamped on the papers.


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## Charley (Dec 14, 2007)

In horse, as with dogs, it isn't the reputable breeders that are the problem.

Breeders who truly care about improving the breed and breed the best to the best are helping make the breed stronger. Breeders who care about the horses that they bring to life and offer to take them back if it doesn't work out, who always offer that safe haven for their former horses, are not the problem. Breeders who take time to place their horses in the right home, not necessarily the first buyer that comes along, are not the problem.

The problem is and will continue to be the breeders (and I use that term loosely) who just don't care. As long as people buy from these types of breeders they will not change.

The only ones who can change the situation are the ones who buy horses. JMHO


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## CLC Stables (Dec 14, 2007)

A lot has to do with EDUCATION EDUCATION EDUCATION..............what I see is the lack there of.

People need to educate themselves on so many levels before breeding, and even then I don't feel many should.


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## Charley (Dec 14, 2007)

Looking back at your posts, I see you are from Australia. Is this post referring to horse overpopulation in Australia?


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## Field-of-Dreams (Dec 14, 2007)

Celeste said:


> If only reputable horse breeders were to stop breeding for one year it would make a big difference to the horse overpopulation
> 
> 
> 
> ....



No, it wouldn't. That year the BYB/millers would fill the world with their poorly bred animals. and THIS would happen:



> If ALL reputable breeders stopped breeding for a year, how many people would wind up purchasing from BAD breeders?



Now, if you could stop the pony mills/BYB for a year THAT could help. But it will never happen. Not in our lifetime.

Lucy


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## Suzie (Dec 14, 2007)

CLC Stables said:


> Banning slaughter houses for equine was a big mistake on the part of the government.............we won't see the MAJOR effects for years, but it is going to snowball, and OH MY is all I can say.




*Major effects* are happening sooner than you might think. For the last 2 months, at local sales of big horses, there are trailer loads of horses that show up, wait until dark and then unload the horses and leave..... No hip #, no information on who owns them. The local auctioneers are running them through and taking what they get to get rid of them. Needless to say, these are not well fed horses. A friend of ours bought one, brought it home, put it under saddle. The horse immediately kicked, breaking the rider's ankle. I am sure this is one that will be at the autioneer's next time to go through again. Stories abound locally with horses being turned loose to fend for themselves in government owned preserves so the government will be forced to address the issue. This happened years ago with wild pigs and now they are a major problem in the south.

Obviously these are not registered horses (for the most part) and not having papers has not stopped the breeding of these big horses. I don't know what the answer is but I do know if you breed good stock the price will stay reasonably high.


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## Mini Mouse (Dec 14, 2007)

txminipinto said:


> Well, to start, it's hard to slaughter horses (legally) when there are no slaughter houses that take horses. Here in Texas, the slaughter of horses has (unfortunately - that's another soap box) been banned.
> 
> *YES, the horse population as a whole outnumbers the available homes. Why do big breeders breed? For the almighty dollar. Why do smaller breeders (like myself) breed? To improve our own programs and for the almighty dollar. * Search this topic and I'm sure you'll find several. It seems someone needs to thump their chests every now and then (sorry it's almost 4am and I'm at work - excuse the grumpyness). It's unfortunately up to each individual breeder to regulate their output. I plan to breed my mares back in '08, however, depending on who I still have from the '07, '08, '09 foaling seasons I may not breed any back for 2010. But, I only have 2 mares that I breed so that's probably not the answer to your question.


Well I certainly think that is the truth, I've always said it's just for the money. Can any breeder on here say they DON'T breed for the money? Yet they are the first ones to preach DON'T BREED, DON'T BREED!! It blows my mind. OH!


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## Shari (Dec 14, 2007)

Biggest problem are not the good breeders but the big Horse "Puppy" Mill breeders that breed junk and sell to who ever and those folks are not on this list. Those kind of breeders are the ones to pump out tons of horses with out care to where they go to.

Me... like I would say most of the breeders here. I only breed sometimes..my last foal is still here. We are also very careful to find very good homes for our horses. I know where all but one of my horses are and how they are doing. In 30 years loosing only track of one is pretty good. Don't like it but until the owner transfers his papers in his name....but I will keep looking.

There are horses like Icelandic's,,, their prices are not coming down..doubt they will, there are too few of them to add to the horse population problem. Same with other rare breeds of horses. Demand for trained Icelandics are still higher than horses avaialble.

Until there are controls of the junk breeders nothing is going to change. Look at QH, Arabs, TB and so on...

I must rather have good breeders, bred good quality horses and be able to buy those types, than just buy puppy mill horses.


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## Jill (Dec 14, 2007)

Mini Mouse said:


> Well I certainly think that is the truth, I've always said it's just for the money. Can any breeder on here say they DON'T breed for the money? Yet they are the first ones to preach DON'T BREED, DON'T BREED!! It blows my mind. OH!


Based on what I plan to ask for my foals IF they are all that I hope, and the cost of taking care of my mares, vetting, etc... I'm not going to be making a profit so I think I can say I am NOT breeding for money. The sale of the foals (if I even decide to sell them!) will offset some of the expenses but I'm not in it for money. It's hard work taking care of and raising horses. I'm into my career, in part, for the money. It's easier and the pay is A LOT better. The horses are a passion for many serious breeders and their main motivation is to produce good horses.


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

I wonder how many of you have seen the manner in which horses are slaughtered. The abuse that they receive in the hours leading to their horrible death far outweighs the abuse that some horses receive in private homes. Maybe I would feel differently if the slaughtering were more humane, but it isn't and that is fact.

Im not going to comment on the breeding thing, because this subject keeps coming up and everyone here has said their piece time and time again. My only opinion now is that I think everyone should take responsibility for their OWN herd, small or large, and make the decisions that you feel is best. But if you really feel the breed is overpopulated, perhaps the solution should start with you, rather than waiting for everyone else to stop their breeding, why don't you set an example and stop your own first.

As far as slaughter, I would like to share the process, for anyone who doesn't.

First is the travel. Horses are loaded onto enlarged stock trailers. They are overloaded. The horses barely have room to move. If they go to the bathroom it is practically on another horses, that is how packed they are. The trips on the trailers sometimes lasted for several hours and the horses were never fed and were never given water. Some horses died during travel and they were left there, in the trailer, with all of the other live horses. Upon arriving at the slaughter house they were put into holding corrals, if they were still alive anyway. When it was their turn they would be brought in. One common practice for "sedating" the horse was to stab it in the back several times, this would paralyze it, but the animal was still very much alive. It was then hung by its back hooves upside down. Then its throat was slit, most times the horses were still alive when they had to endure this, and then they bled to death.

I for one am happy that the slaughter houses were banned, and anyone who is OK letting a horse experience this process should think what it would be like enduring it themselves.

If there was a slaughter house, that did it differently, humanely, safe travel, clean kill, food, water, etc, etc, than maybe I feel differently about THAT particular one. But any hat I had read about didn't waste their time or money on being nice to the horse.

Why not humanely euthanize any horse who wouldn't have a fair shot at a good life? Why would you WANT slaughter?


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 14, 2007)

From what I've been reading on various horse-oriented forums, all that banning horse slaughter in the US has done is assure that many horses sold through local auctions will take a MISERABLE 'last ride' to Mexico or Canada for slaughter. Some 'improvement', huh??? The whole 'push' to ban slaughter in the US was VERY short-sighted, IMO, and has not really 'improved' the situation for unwanted horses.

In a perfect world, the kind of people who breed ANYTHING and EVERYTHING, at minimal expense and maximum profit, would STOP DOING SO--and the 'need' for horse slaughter would drop immensely--although I have to honestly say that I think there will ALWAYS be SOME horses that turn out, for any number of reasons, to be suited ONLY for slaughter--NOT because they have gotten OLD, but due to an intractable temperment and the like. Let's be honest--there are NOT enough financial resources in the world to 'save' EVERY horse, no matter how much, ideally, some think we should. For my part, I will do my best for those I am already responsible for--which might, and SHOULD, include the option of humane euthanization at some point.

Some of you probably aren't going to like this reference, but I have been reading the "FHOTD" site pretty regularly...and although I do NOT agree always or completely with the author's opinions and tone, nor that of some of the responses, I have to say that I APPLAUD someone who 'calls it as she sees it' as she does;as a knowledgable horse person! Is she always 'on point'? Not in all cases, but often, yes...she rails against horse breeding and management(more accurately, LACK of same!)practices, that NEED to be railed against, and often exposes 'breeders' and 'owners' that in MY opinion, need to be eliminated from the human breeding pool,themselves.(Remember, I said, MY opinion!) I would say that the problem of overproduction of horses that will end up not being very desirable, and therefore at risk of ending up in a slaughter auction, is WIDESPREAD throughout the horse industry, period. It is 'easier' to overproduce MINIATURE horses, for reasons already outlined by others; it seems to me that the best effort we ALL can make is to educate new owners, QUIT stressing 'breeding potential' about virtually EVERY 'entire' horse offered for sale, and in the case of EVERY person who is breeding, to look closely at whether you are carefully and selectively trying to produce animals that are better than their parents, or are basically producing numbers, for income. Honestly, the longer I live, the more I realize that I am uncomfortable with the concept of producing companion-type animals for sale/profit. It is just too 'iffy', for me, personally, anymore.

Margo


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

Jill, if you are selling for anything at all, you ARE in it for the money, even if it just offsets bills. If you didn't sell, you would have to pay the bills with money from somewhere else. If you were truly and completely NOT in it for the money, you would find lovely homes and give your horses away. Nobody is saying your getting rich, but you ARE making money, even if it goes right back to the horses.


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## Jill (Dec 14, 2007)

Well, I didn't know you'd seen my books, Matt, but from what I project, if I decide to sell from this foal crop, the expenses off set are the expenses it took to put it into place. If I had not decided to breed, then I'd not have those expenses to offset. It's fine if you want to think I'm into horses for the money. I'm probably just a money manager and financial planner for the fun and relaxation it gives me


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## flamingstar (Dec 14, 2007)

I was part of a horse rescue. We got a truckload of horses from Alberta, and here they stay. Well not my house, but my partner in the rescues. I've now removed myself from that rescue, as all the partner does now is breed and see how many "Mustangs" she can get from the breedings. She is tooting her stallion as a Spanish Colonial Mustang, which there is no paperwork, no dna or anything else of the sort. He is a crossbreed scrub horse from Alberta, who was running wild on a farm. She breeds her mares each year, and has sold one youngstre in 5 years. That is the kind of backyard breeder that I feel gives all horse people a bad name. Do not lie about what you have and don't breed to have the most horses, that almost puts you into the leagues of the killer buyers themselves. JMHO.


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## Reijel's Mom (Dec 14, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> If there was a slaughter house, that did it differently, humanely, safe travel, clean kill, food, water, etc, etc, than maybe I feel differently about THAT particular one. But any hat I had read about didn't waste their time or money on being nice to the horse.
> 
> Why not humanely euthanize any horse who wouldn't have a fair shot at a good life? Why would you WANT slaughter?



Amen to that, Matt. I wish that was the case for all of our livestock, though, as I really think that we owe the animals that we use at least that much.

As far as why people opt not to euthanize and instead sell at market or for slaughter - well, you do know the answer to that. It COSTS money to euthanize and to dispose of a body, while selling a horse for slaughter brings in money.

Every single person that has ever bred a miniature contributes to the overpopulation problem, whether they want to agree with that or not. Those horses that they breed and sell go on to have more babies of their own. That is not to say I have a problem with responsible breeding, I don't. I want there to be animals out there available for purchasing that people have put a lot of time/thought/research into breeding - I just wish there wasn't such an overpopulation problem in so many areas, of any kind of companion animal, period.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

I agree with Jill- I have always regarded my breeding as a hobby- there is NO way the government would pass up on taxing me if they thought there was any hint that I was making a profit- and, basically, you do actually have to make a profit to be "in it for the money!!"

And that is without charging for my time, and all the sleepless nights, BTW- the flat out money I spend does not equal the money I get- even when I actually do sell afola (I did not want to sell any of my foals this year so they are still here, and I also now have a policy of not selling foals, anyway, so there goes any hope of actually making money.)

So Yes, I can say hand on heart, just as Jill can, that I am not in it for the money, I am in it for the love of the " breed"


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

I would like to know what it costs people to put breeding into place.

Here, if you have your own stallion, and your own mare, the costs are well below $500.

This includes all the normal shots throughout pregnancy, the vet visit when the foal is born, the ultrasound, and the extra feed the mare needs when she is closer to foaling. For $500, you could also include a foaling kit, test kit, and the feed you will need to give to the foal while it is a suckling.

I wouldnt count the coast of purchase or care for the mare and stud, because you have them regardless of weather you breed or not. I also dont count the care for any uninvolved horses in the herd.

There is always the chance of costly problems that may occur, but they are not the norm.

Assuming things cost a similar amount of money in your area, are you selling your horses for $500 or less? And if not, I am curious as to what other costs you incur solely because of the particular breeding.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

Good Grief you are lucky- with those sort of costs I wonder your state is not knee deep in cheap Minis!!!

I keep at present two stallions, both of which I own, one I bred and one I bought for an undisclosed but astronomical price.

I happen to think he is worth it!!

He is fully insured and the insurance alone costs me $1,200.00 a year.

Every show I attend costs me, a friend worked out , at least $200.00 and I obviously try to attend a number of shows- these are calculated in the foal costs as all my broodmares now have been shown to Championship level.

Each time my Vet sets foot on the field it costs me $200.00- that is before he actually does anything.

I cannot afford ultrasound, I cannot even afford the "wee foal" kits





I do not have the Vet for a straightforward foaling, only a problematic one.

I could not possibly afford to have a Vet check my mare after foaling- why would I do that anyway??

A tetanus injection costs $ 50.00 and add the $200.00 call out to that- I do all my own farriery as well.

Wormers are around $10.00-$15.00 each but still quite economic.

I reckon starting at $1,000.00 would be far more realistic for each foal, as we have yet to factor in feed hay, etc.

And if I were to start charging for my time and fuel........ OH!

I have to stop working this out, I'm afraid as

a) my head hurts and

b) I can't afford it!!! (every time I do this I realise I can't afford it!!)


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## Elsa (Dec 14, 2007)

I don't see what banning slaughter in the US has to do with anything. Horses are still being shipped to Mexico and Canada. and I also don't understand how anyone who loves horses can be opposed to slaughter being banned. Have you seen the videos online of horses being slaughtered?? it's about the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. Can you imagine your horse going through that?



> *A visit earlier this year to a feed lot in Elk Grove, and there were 3 beautiful yearlings in poor shape. Horse killer Manny Phelps bought these 3 yearlings from a lady in Vacaville. Every year the lady breeds her mares. And then she brags on the internet how she raises colorful and expensive babies. But no one ever wants these babies, so she sells them to horse killer Manny Phelps. A new batch of babies will be born soon. And horse killer Manny Phelps will be waiting for the lady in Vacaville to call him... - www.tbfriends.com*


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

We are within a fair distance from the Vet office, so farm calls are generally low.

I guess if you figure it insurance and show costs, then yes, you would be covering your expenses.

BUT, would you still insure your horse if you werent breeding? Would you still show your mares if you werent breeding? If the answers are yes, then those costs are independent of breeding costs.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

I have never been in a situation where I was showing other peoples stock.

I have always raised and shown my own stock.

I live 11 miles from my Vet- that amount is standard here.

As I said I am surprised there is such a shortage of cheap Minis in your area since it is obviously so cheap to breed them.


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## Elsa (Dec 14, 2007)

If everyone is out to improve the breed, why is there no system implemented that would make quality stallions available to everyone?

I think an organized system similar to that of the warmbloods would be perfect for the mini breed. There would be no queston of what is and what is not good quality because each stallion approved for breeding would need to be tested. Sure, there would still be those breeding random horses, but I think it would cut down the numbers a lot if the resulting stock could not be registered.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

There is, there are, we do


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## Shari (Dec 14, 2007)

Wow Matt....guess no one in your state worms, gives vaccines or takes care of their mini's.

Because here is what I have spent on Theia.. my last foal. Her costs.. breeding fee for her mother and board, Vet care, worming, vaccines, hoof trims, food, vitamins.. not counting the training I have done.. She is 5 1/2 years old now... I have $3,500 into her.

If for some odd reason I sold her.. I would ask what I put into her at least. If I added what I used to charge for training,, it would add $2,000 to the price.

If I showed her...price would go up still.

If people really kept track to how much it costs breed a properly cared for horse and raise the foal.... most of them are taking a loss.

As for looking at the online videos of Slaughter... don't trust them. Why.. because PETA will do anything,, yes.. anything including killing animals themselves to make their point and shock people. They have been in trouble before doing what they are doing.

When I raised lambs, I took them to the local slaughter house...took a tour to see how they run things. I am a picky person about killing any animal. It was a very clean place and the folks knew what they were doing. There was no stress to the animals other than being in a new place. That will happen to any animal that is moved from their farm. For those that have not had to slaughter animals for food, or had them taken to slaughter, do not have a realistic view of the process. Meat doesn't morph into those clean little packages in the store...they come from an animal.

Another problem this brings up... alot of the Anti slaughter people, love rare animals..you know the kind that are kept in Zoo's. Guess what the Zoo's feed those rare animals? Horse meat... and when I worked at the Oakland Zoo...that is all they could afford to feed, is horse meat.

Rather see an animal used, than abused and left to die slowly.

Anyway... this issue goes round and round.. those that have no animals and get caught up to the romance of saving the world...without knowing everything that goes on with breeding good animals...that one should not lump all breeders in the same boat and so on........

I would recommend to those that are looking through rose colored glasses...thinking forcing things like No slaughter is going to make the world better. Do their research....real research without passing judgement one way or another... not look at the PETA sights on the Net. Before they come to forums...........


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## Elsa (Dec 14, 2007)

The videos I have watched have come from numerous sources, not just one.

I'm not opposed to slaughter, but rather the methods. I grew up with a dad who raised and slaughtered pigs, and when it's a bullet to the brain and a quick process, I'm all for it. It's quite a different story when you see horses being beaten to unconsciousness.


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## Suzie (Dec 14, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> I would like to know what it costs people to put breeding into place.
> 
> Here, if you have your own stallion, and your own mare, the costs are well below $500.
> 
> ...




According to my accountant, the costs of our breeding farm was $23,000 last year. That is not counting days of lost sleep, hiring people to help me watch pregnant mares, etc.

We sold all but one of our 8 foals. We sold all our donkey babies and could have sold many more if I had them to sell. But I don't want to breed but 3 a year. That is all I have time to work with each summer and so we don't expand. Same for the foals.

Yes I breed for money. But obviously, since we have horses we do not breed and probably never will, I am in it for more than a profit. Doubt we will ever see any PROFIT. Maybe just less LOSS. I could breed all my horses and make more $$ I suppose, but I try to only breed what I might want to sell and hopefully improve my herd some along. I have buyers interested in my 2008 foals also, so as long as I have people who want my horses, yes I will continue to SELECTIVELY breed them. Not for money PROFIT but for my love of the horses. Yes I have grade horses on my property. I did not breed them and won't breed them, someone else did but they are well trained and therefore have a purpose here.


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

Shari, dont kid yourself, people take care and do all the right things.

Like I said, IF you own your OWN mare and stallion, there would be no stud fee or board.

You have to trim, vaccinate, train, etc, your mare and stud regardless of weather you breed them or not, so I did not consider those BREEDING expenses. If you decided not to breed, you would STILL have those expenses.

It really is not a big deal. Everyone knows you can't get rich with horses. But if you isolate costs that ONLY incur from breeding(i.e. spring vaccinations and hoof care dont count, you have those costs anyway, hoof trimming isnt anymore expensive for a bred horse than a non bred horse) then your sale price will most likely be much higher than those isolated costs. Will it be enough to buy new car? No way, but enough to put back into the horses and help a bit, i.e. saving you a bit of money.


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## Jill (Dec 14, 2007)

Part of the difference is that the $500 you say you can buy a stallion (quality?) for is about 1/2 of what I'd pay for a good stud's fee. If I were not into breeding, I'd not have had any expenses related to my stallions and broodmares as I'd have no reason to own breeding animals and incur expenses for: purchase, transport, insurance, feed, BUILDING of shelters, deworm, vaccinate, etc. If not for my breeding aspirations, I'd probably just own some awesome geldings.


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## stormy (Dec 14, 2007)

Matt,

If you are a breeder, that is breeding as a business, what you invest in your breeding stock to promote and improve there value is an expense. I purchase the best I can afford, mares and stallions, they cost thousands and not hundreds. I am doing my best to promote performance horses so have many of them gelded and trained to drive before selling. I do not breed all mares every year, try not to produce more than I can find suitable homes for. Expenses include feed, worming, vaccinations, farrier, horse trailer, medical expenses, show and training, halters, leads, fencing and tractor, manure disposal, barn mainteance and repair, foaling monitor, and much more to assure what I have is taken care of as well as can be. It would be nice to actually be in the black money wise but the value is in producing that "ideal" performance horse and watching the new owner enjoy and value what I have so carefully bred and raised. It is a lifes work, an art form, an investment in the future of the breed, not a matter of greedy money grabbing.


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

I didn't say you could buy a stallion. I said IF yo ALREADY have your OWN stallion and mare.

And IF you have all of those, they can reproduce several times, you wouldn't calculate their purchase price into every single foal because you only purchased them once. And if you do any showing, or any aspect of the sport besides breeding, than you may have already had the stallion and mare regardless of your choice to breed.

There are some owners who ONLY breed. So everything they have, everything they bought, all the money they spend, is solely due to the fact that they breed. And in that case, I would say that they probably don't even break even. But most everyone got into horses because they want a pet, or they like to show or drive, etc etc, and breeding came later.


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## nightflight (Dec 14, 2007)

If $500 or less is what it costs you to raise a foal in your area, then I can't argue with that. What I can say is that the more foals you raise, the less it costs per foal - until you run into trouble.

With the first foal you have to think about things like a safe foaling stall, camera system, buying all the emergency supplies you could possibly need, purchasing the books/videos/ etc you need to have to educate yourself... that first foal is an expensive one.

Where the $500 or less per foal is going to catch you is on those foals that do not go by the book. You have to decide that you are going to spend no more than X on a foal - even if it is a life and death situation, or spend the money and end up with a $7,000 weanling. Fun Fun Fun.

Edit: Our lovely vet gives us a farm rate because she is out so often, so more can mean less, but even so $500 per foal would be... amazing. Wish we could manage that here. One of the things we consider is that we wouldn't have invested so much in our horses unless we were breeding. Geldings could have done it for us. We also do the junior diets, have fescue free hay shipped in, etc. etc. It costs just to raise a foal, and it costs more to do it well.

Edit2: If you love horses breeding is a hard business to be in. If you take the time to call some of the real "elite" breeders of the Miniature Horse World (not just the "elite" forum people), they might tell you that two times a year or so something leaves them so heartbroken that they want to quit.

Edit 3: On getting started with the first foal... DNA testing and registration alone would blow a big part of that budget out of the water. Even little things that people don't usually think about. The little bitty halter. The blanket for the cold weather foal. Bedding that the foal can't inhale. Basic immunity testing. Pain meds for the maiden mare if needed. A bucket the baby can reach. Does board double if you are boarding?Cha-ching$$$$


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

You really do not have any idea at all about this do you???


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## Katiean (Dec 14, 2007)

I would say to what AKC does with the limited registration did not help the dog population. People still breed with so little regard as to what they breed they call a mutt (cross breed) a designer dog just so they can sell it for a lot of money. These dogs have no papers. A lot of them do not get homes. There is a dog site I go to that has Labradoodles for $600. This is a big incentive for puppy mills to keep up the breeding. We got a pure bred Japanese Chin with out papers (they didn't have them) from a Breeder in CO. We paid $500 for her and we look at her as a rescue because she spent her whole life in a kennel only having puppies. When she only had 1 she was gotten rid of. I just don't know why people see these poor animals as baby machines. Miniature horses included. I did not breed for 08 and still might not for 09 but then I only have 2 mares. I think it would help the horse population if BIG BREEDERS did not breed for 1 season. Or at least if they did breed they only bred for 3 to 4 foals so they had their show colts for the next season.


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## JourneysEnd (Dec 14, 2007)

I know the no breed AKC didn't stop over population.

My question was, did it help keep demand and price for the breeds that ARE registered?

Back yard breeders will always be there.

I was just trying to think of things we could do to support the people who do it right so they can at least get a decent price for their horses.

The breeders that really work to improve the breed have to complete with $500 mares sold at flea markets.


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

Well unlike many people south of us, we do not pay between 8-12 dollars for a bale of hay, so we are lucky for that. And For those that invest in horses BECAUSE of breeding than I guess it's a whole different story. I like horses, I like showing, and I would have a mini to show regardless of weather I breed or not. And those that breed around me, are in the same boat. They breed as a hobby because they like babies and the experience, and usually the money they make covers to cost of other horse related expenses such as hay, etc.

Rabbitfizz, if your comment was made to me, your welcome to think what you want. In fact, if you need a brick right about now I think I have a few.....





I'll go get my helmet.


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## chandab (Dec 14, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> And IF you have all of those, they can reproduce several times, you wouldn't calculate their purchase price into every single foal because you only purchased them once.


Actually, you do... Its called amortization (sp?).


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

I do not understand your comment but, Yes, what I said was directed at you, Matt.

So you and your friends are all in this for the money, eh???

That is very clever of you all, I have been breeding for forty years and I have yet to have one year where I make any sort of clear profit whatsoever.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 14, 2007)

LowriseMinis said:


> How many horses from reputable breeders are going to wind up at slaughter, as opposed to those strictly pet horses or backyard bred horses or race track castoffs or old, used up ranch horses?
> 
> If ALL reputable breeders stopped breeding for a year, how many people would wind up purchasing from BAD breeders?
> 
> The same questions could be asked about dogs and shelters, actually.


I am quoting the above only because it is what many say over and over again. Personally ALL breeders have to stop breeding for awhile but it seems it's the "not me" syndrome. The problem is too many horses or too many dogs, or too many cats period. Until EVERYONE can stop focussing on splitting "groups" - "quality" vs "pet" (Lord, I HATE those terms) and SEE



that a horse is a horse, a cat is a cat, a dog is a dog, etc. things will never improve as far as numbers period. The statements as well that I have heard in the past and still do that a "quality" or an animal from a "reputable" breeder won't end up at slaughter is ..... Tell that to the many race horses that end up at slaughter, tell that to the recent group of arabians rescued - one of which was the last living descendant in this continent, I could go on and on. It's time that EVERYONE take their head out of the sand and realize that WE are adding to the problem. Not just the ones breeding "pets" but EVERY breeder, period. Until everyone can admit it, the problem will continue and probably get worse. JMHO


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

well said


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## Katiean (Dec 14, 2007)

If you have a mare, you have to feed her. Right? So, if you breed her (your own stud) you are not incurring any additional expenses with her because you still must give vaccines, worm and farrier work. You are not going to have any expense until the foal is born. Then if you can unload that foal as young as possible, for say, $500 anything you get from that foal is profit. So now multiply that by, oh, 100. This is what is so attractive to the mill breeders. Most of this kind of breeder will have land and fields and pastures so they do not have to feed (remember KS?) They do not have foal cams,have the vet out (it is cheaper to let it die and replace it) or anything else that costs money. This is their living. If these breeders were not allowed to do this it would help the horse world (big and mini), dog world and any other type of breeder there is. The problem with that is that our government can not put that type of restrictions on it's people. We are free to breed what ever we want when we want. unless we abuse, cause harm or don't feed them. if they are locked in stalls or kennels for dogs that is ok as long as they are reasonably clean. I personally do not approve of the way some people treat the animals for breeding but, do I want the government to have more control? NO!! So as breeders we can complain until someone puts laws in place so no one can breed as they wish. Or, we can try to educate people as to how the miniature horse should be cared for so it is reasonably comfortable in a pet or home setting.


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## MiniaturePrincess429 (Dec 14, 2007)

i don't post much on here, because i like just looking at what people write, but Matt, Seriously, you need to chillax. You don't know everything. And I'd like to know where you are from because it must be some cool place if the cost of breeding is only 500 per foal. The vet bills alone for the mare will be more than 500, and that's if everything goes perfect. It doesn't matter matter if you own the mare and the sire. there are so many other ways that cost occur. It's just not feasible.

ETA: And there's no need to be immature and think that rabbitfizz is going to throw bricks at you. I can guarentee that i'm younger than you, and my peers do not act that way


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 14, 2007)

I agree Katiean BUT how many puppy mill type breeders are their out there versus normal breeders (reputable). How many horses are born from pupply mill type breeders vs "reputable" breeders? You know what, it doesn't matter, what matters is EVERYONE who breeds is adding to the numbers!!!! You and I and others that are responsible breeders can try and exclude ourselves from the problem but the fact is we breed, we add to the numbers. We know that the puppy mill type breeders won't stop but WE as "responsible and reputable breeders" can, we could probably make a difference but we won't will we because it seems everyone thinks "they" are the problem "not us" so nothing will ever get done, numbers will continue to go up and up, more horses slaughtered, more horses abandoned, more horses starving, etc. etc.


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## Katiean (Dec 14, 2007)

MiniaturePrincess429 said:


> And I'd like to know where you are from because it must be some cool place if the cost of breeding is only 500 per foal. The vet bills alone for the mare will be more than 500,


 

 


The MILL breeder doesn't even spend that on a foal. They breed and let nature take it's course. If the mare dies they replace her.

 


And have we all forgotten KS and what it took to get those MILL horses out of there?


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

Miniature Princess, the brick comment is in regards to something you were not apart of, and I don't mean that in a mean way, its just something that happened on another forum , that some people here know about and some don't. I am aware that most people don't throw bricks to solve their problems, which is why it is so ironic that this was the discussion on the other thread, so please, don't comment on that until you have seen that thread.

And as far as costs of breeding, well I have never heard about breeding costs in any area but here, I don't know anyone who has spent more than a few hundred dollars for vet visits, this includes the ultrasound, 3 rhino shots, and visit when the foal is born. This is of course if everything goes routine, which most of the time, it does. And again I personally do not consider routine care(feed, vet, dentist, etc) for the parents part of breeding costs, because you have those regardless. And I think I DO live in a GREAT place





Im not into researching breeding costs across the country. But I think some people are afraid or feel ashamed to say that they are in it for some money(regardless of where the money goes, usually back to the horses) and i don't think it is a shameful thing. If you love what you do and are responsible about it why not not make something back, it doesnt have to be your first priority, I think most people would say that when selling a good home is the first concern. But hat doesn't mean you can't get a little something back for your hard work.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

You know what I am no longer even sure what the pint of this thread is??

So...we stop breeding because we are responsible breeders and everyone knows just how much the Miniature Horse Industry is adding to the Horse slaughter problem??

Is that it??

Or is it we stop breeding because we are part of the problem- so what about the pony mills that will keep on churning out the problems??

And of course, according to Matt's post of a little while ago, there is not actually a problem with excess Minis anyway.

Matt, I would like to live in your world for just a little while, it must be very restful- there do not appear to be any sort of problems, no over stocking, no high Vets bills, no over heads, no worry.

I envy you.


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

I wouldnt say it is perfect. But I think for the most part people around hear are doing OK and spending more time enjoying their horses than worrying about all the problems in the horse industry. The pros outweigh the cons(in every aspect) is all Im saying, and I hope that other people can say the same. Horses are hard work, why would you bother if the were more problems than pleasures.


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## nightflight (Dec 14, 2007)

> Horses are hard work, why would you bother if the were more problems than pleasures.


Masochistic tendencies?

Wait. Was that rhetorical?


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## nootka (Dec 14, 2007)

> I've had horses for 13 years and minis for 8 years, which is a drop in the bucket compared to some of us here. I started out having a couple as pets (1), then got into driving (2), then got into showing and serious learning about type and conformation (3), then built up the caliber of my show horses (4), and THEN made changes to create a herd I feel optimistic about breeding (5). I would not have been able to really have a chance at the quality I want in foals and the future generation if I had started breeding back when I first got into minis.


This should be a model for just about anyone wanting to breed anything for any reason, even merely money. There's a LOT more to it than that, but I TRULY ADMIRE JILL for how she's gone about setting in place a plan and sticking to it.

The instant breeder is the bane of our existence, and that is not saying that all are "bad" or even any are "good".

What it says is that miniatures, by their nature and size, are suited to instigate disaster in that manner. As I mentioned on the other thread, breeding creates its own problem in that it makes more horses to care for and exponentially increases the complications. What was simply a cute little herd of mares and a stallion has now become a management issue when you have to separate the sons from the mothers, from the father from the sisters and so on. Consequently, the entire herd then suffers from something or another be it too little food, too little attention, too much socialization (as in stallions fighting b/c they are not separated, mares getting bred too young, etc.) Not all "newbies" are prepared to do this in its entirety, though I will say most of us are willing to learn. They become overwhelmed and then dump the horses.

I wish I'd started out with half the clue that Jill had and has enforced in her own program through the years. I had had horses for 7 years prior to getting Miniatures, and had been studying and working around them for most of my life before that. I still should not have bred a mare for several years before I actually did. I had some rotten counseling in that department, as in someone saying "play the numbers, breed them all and breed them often, sell low just sell lots of 'em." Advisement is the difference. I have no problem with someone buying a herd of bred mares and then proceeding to breed, themselves, as long as they've considered all the consequences and that includes the fact that some of the horses may simply not sell for years, and others will possibly be unsale-able (as in a dwarf, etc.), still others will not even happen and may be tragic (dystocia resulting in loss of mare and foal), and that percentage-wise, you have a low chance of breeding the next World Champ (if that's your goal), but you can increase those odds with education.

I have no foals coming for 2008, though I tried for one. I will be sending a mare out for a 2009 foal. I have the room to keep all of them in case none of them sell. My horses' future homes are my first concern. I am not always able to take them back, but I have, and I will in most cases take them back if something goes wrong. I sell them at prices and to people that seem to have a real interest in the horses and their well-being. I stay in touch with buyers with rare exception.

The real targets of this question (why breed more and more horses) are someone other than the "Responsible breeders" you seem to have included. That is an oxymoron if you did, indeed, direct it at them. We are ALL accountable for every aspect of the overpopulation, including those just breeding for pets or for show, or sale.

Perhaps we should all just look around and see if we can't find the perfect horse for sale out there instead of trying to breed it. I know there are far more pet quality/pleasure suited minis available for adoption and/or cheap sale than there are show horses, but I have seen some very nice show horses going for fairly low prices, too.

The problem becomes that the "mill" or quantity over quality breeders just see that as a green light and will then breed more. That's how I see it. There's nothing responsible about it.

Liz


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 14, 2007)

Katiean said:


> MiniaturePrincess429 said:
> 
> 
> > And I'd like to know where you are from because it must be some cool place if the cost of breeding is only 500 per foal. The vet bills alone for the mare will be more than 500,
> ...


 


That is not what I am saying but we keep only focusing on the "mill horse" breeders, we seem to exclude all others (that includes each and everyone of ourselves that breed). Why? Do we not add to the numbers? Are you saying it's okay to breed correct horses and that doesn't add to the numbers? We are ALL adding to the numbers, no matter what, that is what I am trying to say. We are not exempt from this problem but all we seem to do is point the fingers to the "other guy". Why do we do this? Are we in denial or do we think that there is no problem with too many horses? To me that's the bottom line. It doesn't matter if a horses is from a mill or from a reputable breeder, any of these can end up at a slaughter house. Why do I say that? It's becasue of the economical times we live in at the moment, such as droughts (high feed costs), divorces, bankruptcies, etc. etc. Sometimes things are not in our control and who suffers, the horses and that is why I say we are all responsible for the large number of horses out there period, as breeders. This is not a "quality" issue.

 


I believe not that long ago I read about a sale here where some extremely well bred minis were getting very poor prices. That is a major red flag!!!! It's a supply and demand thing and right now there are TOO MANY period.


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## bevann (Dec 14, 2007)

I am one of those who did not breed any mares for 2008 and may never breed again.I have been in Minis almost 20 years and was one of those who foolishly thought I could make money breeding quality well cared for animals.(boy was I way off on that)I never even broke even in 20 years.I am a hopeless Mini-aholic(I just love having Mini foals on the farm)My horses have always received the best care and even though my place is just an old converted dairy farm with a big dairy barn, it has worked well for the Minis.I have tried very hard to place horses in good homes and buy many back if like situations change.Unfortunatly many buyers just change their minds and don't see a Mini as a long term committment in care.They treat it like a dog or cat that they can take to the pound when the novelty wears off.2007 has been especially tough here.Many Minis returned to their birthplace. 2 little show mares were almost starved when I took them back after being in a new home for only 9 months-it was an inconvenience for the man to feed them and have feet trimmed. 1 mare came back after being re sold for 7 times.(I just gave her to a forever home.Another came back because the buyer really wanted a blk&white(he wasn't blk&white when she bought him)I educate my buyers and send food and hay with the horses and do follow up calls and many times even visit.Sometimes I just can't fix STUPID OWNERS who buy on a whim and don't care about the long term welfare of the animal. I have had some really wonderful buyers who love their Minis like they are part of the family. I wish all Minis could get homes like that. I have people call and visit who I will not sell my animals to.I think I need to get more picky and wait until the best match for the animals come along.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

I agree wholeheartedly but how will breeders of good, quality horses not breeding help to prevent the low quality animals that are being turned out at the bottom end of the market??

Should we, seriously now, not tongue in cheek or what ever, just stop, let it all find it's level and then, in ten or fifteen years, start again??

What other solution is there??


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## Fred (Dec 14, 2007)

Matt, I LIVE in the basic area that you do and MY expenses are far far more than what you quoted. I raise, breed and show the minis and have done it for quite a while and you know I have. I sell very few horses and have no problem selling anything I raise [to great homes I might add]. There are qood horses in this area and there are some very cheap ones also. I probably have more of an idea than most people about what is available as being a farrier gives me more access to what is out there. As for the slaughter thing that was written, unless YOU personally witness said acts you shouldn't comment on it. I think you need to meet the gentleman [and I stress GENTLEMAN] who hauls for the killers in this area. He is the most kind, humane man you would want to meet. He is well known in the area and is extremely compassionate to owners who have lost there horse. You are still pretty darn young and have a lot to learn but you WILL learn, you just have to pay your dues like the rest of us.


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## tagalong (Dec 14, 2007)

> First is the travel. Horses are loaded onto enlarged stock trailers. They are overloaded. The horses barely have room to move. If they go to the bathroom it is practically on another horses, that is how packed they are. The trips on the trailers sometimes lasted for several hours and the horses were never fed and were never given water. Some horses died during travel and they were left there, in the trailer, with all of the other live horses. Upon arriving at the slaughter house they were put into holding corrals, if they were still alive anyway. When it was their turn they would be brought in. One common practice for "sedating" the horse was to stab it in the back several times, this would paralyze it, but the animal was still very much alive. It was then hung by its back hooves upside down. Then its throat was slit, most times the horses were still alive when they had to endure this, and then they bled to death.


*Matt * - have you ever toured a properly run slaughterhouse? Obviously not.

I have - so this is first hand info. Nothing sensationalized. Nothing PETA would get extremely worked up about.

The horses in the holding lots were better fed than many of them ever were at home. They were sorted out - young from old. The aggressive seperated from the meek. Stallions seperated. Horses that no one wanted any more. Potential riding horses were often sorted out again into a different area - as the dealers could get more for the horse that way than running it up the chute. Friends bought many nice riding horses right out of the holding yards... and those horses had happy lives and were even therapeutic riding horses.

Downers were almost unheard of there. And if they happened... they were immediatly dealt with - not left there. In fact - no horses were ever left standing in the trailers for any length of time upon arrival. The double decker trailers were being phased out the last time I was there.... only one level stock trailers/trucks were preferred. They were much easier to unload as well... easier on the horses, easier on the workers.

Slaughter. One at a time - the horses went up the Chute. A door closed behind them. The walls were slightly sloped. From overhead a electric charge gun dropped the horse *dead* - usually before they even had a chance to look around or get worried. And if the operator thought that the first time may not have worked - he did it again.

NO HORSE left that holding area alive. No reflexes. Nothing. No horses were "bled to death". When they were hoisted up and then bled out - they were very dead - no thrashing - no horror. And not nearly sensationalist enough to make good video that gets passed around in outrage...

I never saw a horse "sedated" by being stabbed in the back. Ever. If it was such a "common practice" - I would surely have seen this.

And yes - I was at the plant more than once - as the vet I was helping had to make regular (and unannounced) visits to check in on things.

But as I have discovered on this forum in the past - first hand experience often counts for nothing against what people "know" to be true...

Why did I tour the place? And go back? Because I wanted to see things first hand - and not rely on sensationalist - if well-meaning - reports.

Sorry - I know the slaughterhouse issue is a seperate topic - but I wanted to reply to Matt's observations.


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## palominogirl (Dec 14, 2007)

If the high quality breeders breeds then they are going to sell. you cant always be sure about who your selling to which is the exact reason i dont sell. you may think you found someone that will show them and take care of them but the next thing you know that horse could be dog food. Its not exactly the big breeders causing a problem with slaughter i feel its the people who buy a stallion and start breeding it to every type of horse they can get their hands on. if people who are really into showing see a horse go through that is not and cannot be registered they wont waste their money.all i see by breeding 2 completely different breeds together how many classes are you gonna find to show that horse in. i dont really see miniatures going through sales around here i have seen many big horses go through the ring sold to slaughter dealers.


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## maestoso (Dec 14, 2007)

Fred I admire your experience, and I do not doubt that what your are saying is correct, about both the man who hauls for killers or your breeding expenses, but I think I am looking at breeding expenses differently than you are, but enough said on that.

In regards to slaughter, when the whole idea to start banning slaughter houses started, I was very interested in it and studied it. I did see several videos of the process, the entire process, from the start of the hauling and until the death of the horse. The videos were certainly not hoaxes, cartoons, jokes, etc. Obviously these were the worst cases. When something like this is trying to be pushed, the exposure will always be the worst cases because they want you to believe it. But regardless the videos were horrible. I am sure there was a hauler out there who did it nicely, a slaughter house who did it differently, but how do you control it to allow the humane procedures to continue and the abusive procedures to stop? What are the advantages to slaughter verses euthanization?

I won't ignore that there are properly run slaughterhouses, but the fact there are abusive slaughter houses can't be ignored either, and as I just asked, how do you deal with this?

I am happy to say that I do have a lot to learn, though I don't think age dictates experience in any way. But that is what most people will say who are apart of my generation. And most people in the older generations might say the exact opposite.


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 14, 2007)

<Stands up to applaud Danielle E.'s post!>

Quote from one of the several posts on this thread from Mr. Drown: "They breed as a hobby because they like babies and the experience, and usually the money they make goes to cover to(sic)cost of other horse related expenses such as hay, etc." This is as clear a statement of irresponsible breeding as I can imagine, and I don't think Mr. Drown realizes that...Why? Because it makes clear that horses are being produced to satisfy a 'selfish'-yes, selfish! motive of the breeder-"...because they like the babies". This would be all well and good, IF 'they'are going to keep and be responsible for the resulting horses(which, as we all know, do not 'STAY' those cute babies)for the lifespans of said horses. If not, then I strongly feel that 'they' are as much a part of the problem as anyone! Once upon a time, when miniatures were such a novelty, many DID 'get away' with that kind of a breeding philosophy, perhaps--but times HAVE changed, and in the best interests of the hapless animals, who have NO VOICE and NO CHOICE in what happens to them, WE as humans need to change OUR approach to the whole issue of the production of companion animals! Like it or not, what once may have been 'OK' may no longer be in the animals' best interests....and THAT is what should be our benchmark of behavior. Heck, I liked the babies, too--most are mighty cute, no matter what quality they are. That is NOT, any more at least (if it EVER was!?)suffiecient justification for producing one without being prepared to have a lifetime PERSONAL committment to its care and well-being! I used to breed a bit; however, I found that I did NOT like selling---to me, a quality animal should pretty much 'sell itself'-to a discriminating buyer--but especially in miniature horses, there are MANY who are NOT discriminating buyers-who in fact, don't know a horse from a hat-and I just could never get comfortable with 'promoting' a sale to those whom I couldn't feel good about as providing a proper home for a horse. I have made excuses and turned down prospective buyers--even in my own local area, and some who were clearly ready to pay darn good money...and don't regret it...but did find that the best answer for me was to simply quit breeding. I kept two out of the three very BEST horses I produced(performance GELDINGS), and am to this day VERY happy about the homes most of the others got(and several of the other top-notch ones have gone on to become accomplished performance horses-mares, in fact-who are NOT and have never been, bred!! In every case, though, getting the horses I bred, including the ones that weren't of as high quality as I'd hoped, INTO those good homes took a good bit of time and patience and a willingness to make the good home the very top priority---and quite honestly, became a source of stress--and as the world keeps changing,and as many people now look at animals as more of a 'disposable item', and proper care has gotten considerably more expensive--- I am doubly glad that I quit breeding when I did!

Margo


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## tagalong (Dec 14, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> I did see several videos of the process, the entire process, from the start of the hauling and until the death of the horse. The videos were certainly not hoaxes, cartoons, jokes, etc. Obviously these were the worst cases. When something like this is trying to be pushed, the exposure will always be the worst cases because they want you to believe it.


But in the same breath - you cannot then assure us of "common practices" when they aren't. You cannot hold it up as normal. I actually have not seen any videos where horses got stabbed in the back (lucky me ) - that must have been some kind of backwoods abattoir... and/or small one.



> I won't ignore that there are properly run slaughterhouses, but the fact there are abusive slaughter houses can't be ignored either, and as I just asked, how do you deal with this?


You don't shut them down... and make a desperate situation worse. You can regulate and monitor them instead.

Slauighter vs. euthanasia.

What do you do with that euthanized horse, BTW? Not everyone can simply bury them.

Slaughter can be euthanasia. That same plant I described had a side door. You could trailer a horse right up there - they would help you unload him quietly and without fuss... and then use another electric charge to lay him down - quickly, painlessly, no struggling. And that was the route I chose for my Thoroughbred gelding who was slowly fading due to kidney shutdown. In the dead of winter, with temperatures in the -20s... we hauled him there in comfort... fed him some treats... and the quiet and efficent worker made sure he did not suffer.

And having said that - no doubt I am going to be flamed and blowtorched for being heartless and having no compassion. My compassion for him made me seek out the most stress-free and painless way of dealing with a sad situation. And we did not have to wait for spring to thaw the ground out to bury him, either.

I did what was best for him. As did many others who used that side door....

*Matt* - how about sharing your view of breeding expenses... and running a farm. All vet care, power, maintenance, water bills, feed, fencing, insurance etc. figured in? I am just wondering what your take on all this is... as I feel you are not really understanding all that is involved...


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 14, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I agree wholeheartedly but how will breeders of good, quality horses not breeding help to prevent the low quality animals that are being turned out at the bottom end of the market??
> 
> Should we, seriously now, not tongue in cheek or what ever, just stop, let it all find it's level and then, in ten or fifteen years, start again??
> 
> What other solution is there??


We all agree that even some of the best bred miniature are selling for ridiculously low prices, sometimes no better than the ones coming out of "horse mills". Would it not make more sense to cut back on numbers being bred, EVERYONE. Oh I know the puppy mill type breeders will continue to do so and there is absolutely nothing we can do about that, but for all others we can decide to lets say breed half of what we were going to breed and do this for a couple of years. It might just help get the market back to more reasonable prices and at the same time help the situation of too many in numbers that could fall into less than stellar hands or end up in dire situations where they end up in slaughter. I am not saying stop breeding all together, I am saying cut back! You might say well what is the difference if I breed 5 horses this year and sell the babies and can only get under $1,000 or breed half of that each year for the next few years and get $2,000 ? What you get is what I call "responsible breeding". You go with what the "market" can handle or you can continue breeding whatever number you breed each year and eventually you won't be able to sell any at all and might only get $500 for them. We have to start somewhere and we all profess to be "responsible breeders" so I say let's put our words into action. Just talking about it isn't going to make the market come back, only action will and without pointing fingers to the next guy and not following through on what you and I and everyone else here can do to make the situation better, for our horses and for ourselves in the long haul.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 14, 2007)

You are right, Danielle, if you are not part of the solution.....


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## Katiean (Dec 14, 2007)

Because of the "over population" of minis we were able to buy our next driving show horse for a price that would make everyone cry. I have been told that the breeder of this horse is very honest and reputable. The market is so slow that we sold a grade colt a year ago for more than we paid for this mare. So, I say it would be in everyones best interest to at least cut back breeding.


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## Jill (Dec 14, 2007)

I'm not the first to say this, and it's not the first time I've said it, either. I think there is always a market for quality. The horses I bought this year are what I like, and they weren't just a few hundred dollars, either. I hope the breeders I've admired won't stop breeding. I'm sure I will want / need to make good additions and changes as the years go by.


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## New_Image (Dec 14, 2007)

> Thousands upon thousands of horses are slaughtered every year yet breeders, whether registered or not are constantly breeding more and more! I just need to ask why when so many end up as dog food?
> If only reputable horse breeders were to stop breeding for one year it would make a big difference to the horse overpopulation no.gif








Its the "If *I* stopped breeding it would have no effect so why bother" attitude that continues to over populate, quality animals or not.

So many people can complain about the TERRIBLE horse market and over population, the prices going down etc... but can not see that quality aside they are the problem as much as the next guy.......

I just find it best to stay out of breeding and ignore it all


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## LeosPocoDan (Dec 14, 2007)

There isn't a big issue with horses being shipped to slaughter after the law passed but I don't think horses that are not regestered should be bred. Maybe a law making you have a lisence to breed would help, like they have for exotics. But people arn't just going to stop breeding.

But slaughter was better than the now alternative life of the 100,000+ horses every year.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 14, 2007)

Katiean said:


> Because of the "over population" of minis we were able to buy our next driving show horse for a price that would make everyone cry. I have been told that the breeder of this horse is very honest and reputable. The market is so slow that we sold a grade colt a year ago for more than we paid for this mare. So, I say it would be in everyones best interest to at least cut back breeding.










Jill said:


> I'm not the first to say this, and it's not the first time I've said it, either. I think there is always a market for quality. The horses I bought this year are what I like, and they weren't just a few hundred dollars, either. I hope the breeders I've admired won't stop breeding. I'm sure I will want / need to make good additions and changes as the years go by.


I am just taking an example of Jill's post, nothing personal Jill, but this is the reason that numbers will keep going up. Jill, nobody is telling people to stop breeding all together, at least that isn't what I was trying to convey. A few weeks ago there was a thread about a sale here on this forum and people were commenting that the prices were exceptionally low and how sad, yada yada and I saw the pics of these horses, I believe it was a sale with a live feed to it, sorry can't remember the name of the sale, but people were commenting that some of the last horses in the sale were going for as little as $200 and they were very nice, well conformed show type horses. If we as breeders, the smaller breeder and the larger breeder keep breeding at the rate we are this will continue. What would need to happen is that breeders either put a fair price (higher) on their stock and stick to their guns to get their asking price or keep their stock till they get the price that these animals are worth. You can't buy a registered purebred dog for that price! I was looking today at an ad for registered tea cup yorkies and their price is $1500 and up, for a dog and some are selling their registered minis for $200???? $500?????


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## Margaret (Dec 14, 2007)

So True Danielle, too many people are breeding and have the make it or break it attitude, where if there offspring dont sell by a certain point, they panic and drop their prices to make room for the next years crop.

Its a vicious cycle that doesent seem to stop.

The market is so flooded that buyers a can stand back and wait for a desperate seller to drop their price, as

the buyer is getting wise to this game too.

It is a good time to be discriminate about who you breed,- if you choose to breed at all.


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## The Simple Life Farm (Dec 15, 2007)

Can we change the subject now?????

TMI on the slaughter process!!!!!


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## maestoso (Dec 15, 2007)

Tagalong,

I have no interest in ever "just breeding"... I have a horse because I like having a horse. I like to show, train, etc. I like going out and watching him run around the paddock and I like cleaning his stall. I might breed him at some point if I have a mare, but I wouldn't buy the mare just to breed. Maybe I want another show horse, and it would be nice if it were a mare because then if I chose to breed the option is there. I got into horses knowing that there would always be more money pouring out than coming in. If I decide to breed it will be extra, it won't be the reason for my keeping horses. Because I have a horse, and will always have horses because of reasons besides breeding, I don't consider their routine expenses breeding expenses. I have to feed both the mare and stud anyway. (For me personally) I would be showing them anyway, I would be getting them their dental/vet/hoof care anyway. They would be getting Spring vaccinations anyway. If I had my own barn, I would have to be paying the maintenance bills anyway. All those things tagalong mentions are things horse people have to pay weather they breed or not(unless they are only in it to breed) I am aware and do understand the costs of horses. If I were really trying to do that math on it, the only expenses I would consider BREEDING expenses would be the vet visit for the ultrasound, 3 visits for shots, and the visit when the foal is born. Also the extra food I have to feed the mare, and the food I'd have to feed the foal once it started eating. I know that many people here have posted that you pay $90 for a farm call and I am sorry, Ive never paid that for a farm call. I think the most I have ever paid for a farm call is $40, but it is usually not even that high. If you add up every expense you have for your horses, you could win the lottery and still not break even, but personally, I don't consider every expense a breeding expense. If you only have horses so you can breed, and only show so you can title your mare who you breed, and only train because you breed, etc, that is a lot of work to not even break even. But I dont know many people who are only in it for the breeding. Everyone I know had horses because they liked them first, breeding came later. And most of them would still keep their horses now if they stopped breeding.

Perhaps this is not a good analogy, but it is all I can think of at the moment...... I teach saxophone lessons. I am able to do that because I have played and trained for a long time. When I try to determine my profits, I am not looking to make back what I paid for my saxophone or what I spend on reeds and music and my own lessons, etc, because I would have the saxophone even if i didn't teach. I would buy reeds so I could play even if I didn't teach, so those are not costs that result from teaching. Those are costs that are a result of my hobby.

The gas I have to buy to travel to students is a result of teaching, it is a cost I would not have if I didn't teach, so that is something I figure in to it.

Music and reeds can be expensive, and the lessons I take for myself are very expensive and most of the money I make from teaching goes right back to my hobby to cover other costs.

I love teaching, but I would not teach and charge enough to ONLY cover my gas cost(which is my only teaching expense, besides time).

Bur if I did not teach, I wouldn't be able to afford my own lessons and music and such, so yes, in that sense, I do it for the money, and I don't think that saying that makes me greedy, I think it means I am able to do something I love to do and it helps me cover costs of other things I love, or another part of that hobby.

Im not saying everyone looks at this way, but I do and perhaps that better explains why I feel like selling foals can extend past just covering (what I feel) are breeding expenses.

IMO the cost of running a farm and the cost of breeding expenses are completely separate(unless you ONLY have a farm to breed) and that is why I don't lump the two together.

Does that answer your question tagalong?


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## JWC sr. (Dec 15, 2007)

I have taken the time to read this entire string and a couple of things need to be said from my view point.

1. We do not breed every mare we have on the farm. Some are not the quality that we are breeding for today and Cindy can't stand the thought of getting rid of the mares that she has had for so many years. Some of them since they were babies and now are 18 - 19 years old. So we feed, care and love them for what they are pet quality horses that give us a lot of joy.





2. We are breeders for the most part, we enjoy putting together a breeding plan with all the things that go into it and then working for 5 - 8 years to bring that plan to fruitation. OH!

3. We enjoy the showing, but to be honest for a number of years have sold the best we produced as a means to get our horses into other peoples hands and in other parts of the country including Europe to prove up our breeding program.





4. We do not have a problem selling for reasonable money the babies we produce every year. Last year the hgh selling filly sold for 20,000.00 and the low selling filly which was pet quality sold for 800.00, colts ranged from 600.00 - 15,000.00.





5. We have seen mini's sell for a lot of money and we have also seen them sell for a few hundred dollars. In most cases though the sellers that were taking that kind of money for thier horses were not doing the things required to get a fair price for the horses they sold. Places like here at little beggininings offer great value as far as advertizing your horses, the national magazines, the other breed magazines etc. etc. It takes time, effort and money to market your horses and most people do not do it. They take them to a low budget sale and accept really silly money for quality horses that they have worked hard to produce.





6. It does not make a difference if you have just a few horses or a large herd, marketing and education of the general public and industry are the tickets to finding good homes for your horses. Additionally we believe there is a use for every miniature horse, all the way from being a companion horse to being a national quality show horse. It is our job as owners to find those uses and place the horses in them if we are going to say we are responsible breeders/owners in our opinion.





Bottom line is as far as we are concerned, the market is fine and horses will sell if you put time, effort and forethought about where, when and how you are going to sell your horses. If you don't go through this process you are doomed to find very few buyers for your foals no matter what the quality of the horses are. OH!

Take the emotion out of it and you can see where we are coming from. A perfect example is as follows, a Vice President of Texaco USA told me many years ago when talking to me about the need for marketing, his analogy was that you could have the best steaks in the world, but if you don't put a sign out in front of your resturant saying Steaks for sale or something to that effect, nobody will know about it and you will fail in placing your steaks before they go bad.





If you are going to breed it is your responsibility to either be prepared to do whatever it takes to find good loving homes for the animals you produce or keep them yourself for the rest of thier lives.








That our two cents worth and we will continue to do what we do as it works for us. We may not make a lot of money by going to the expense of doing all the marketing we do, but we can sleep very well at night knowing our horses are doing fine and we are enjoying producing them.


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## Jill (Dec 15, 2007)

Danielle_E. said:


> I am just taking an example of Jill's post, nothing personal Jill, but this is the reason that numbers will keep going up. Jill, nobody is telling people to stop breeding all together, at least that isn't what I was trying to convey. A few weeks ago there was a thread about a sale here on this forum and people were commenting that the prices were exceptionally low and how sad, yada yada and I saw the pics of these horses, I believe it was a sale with a live feed to it, sorry can't remember the name of the sale, but people were commenting that some of the last horses in the sale were going for as little as $200 and they were very nice, well conformed show type horses. If we as breeders, the smaller breeder and the larger breeder keep breeding at the rate we are this will continue. What would need to happen is that breeders either put a fair price (higher) on their stock and stick to their guns to get their asking price or keep their stock till they get the price that these animals are worth. You can't buy a registered purebred dog for that price! I was looking today at an ad for registered tea cup yorkies and their price is $1500 and up, for a dog and some are selling their registered minis for $200???? $500?????


Or, what if every "breeder" instead spends the YEARS and YEARS that I have spent trying to learn and then putting together a nice breeding herd? Vs. breeding every year since they first got into minis



As I said, I may have as many as 5 foals due this year, which marks the first foals that were "mine" from conception and I've been into minis since 1999. I will not be breeding every mare that I own (10 mares / fillies) as the years go on, and will make choices I feel are good as to who I breed, if I breed, as the time goes by.

What I hope is that we will be able to make some horses that will mean as much to other serious enthusiasts as our nicest horses mean to us. I'm not out to mass produce, but I am aiming to produce some foals that will make me and others proud. I don't feel guilty about these choices and it's not something I cooked up over night.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 15, 2007)

John






thank you very much for your wonderful and eloquent post. You have given me much food for thought and I have to say that I totally agree with your vision, mission, etc. I truly wish there were more breeders out there like you . You are correct with regards to the marketing aspect of it and not enough of us go your route and that is why you are seeing some exceptionally nice minis basically almost being given away (my analogy of a mini going for less than a purebred dog). I do think we can turn this picture around, collectively and you are right in saying that it takes work to do this. I guess one of my pet peeves is when I have seen ads where the seller seems desperate to sell this year's foal crop to make room for next year's. Now I know that sometimes life deals everyone a bad hand, so to speak, and you must downsize big time, but for the past few years here I have seen many of the ads that I am speaking about. When I see these kind of ads I do think to myself "if you have to do this why are you breeding more?". It is this kind of breeding, where the seller is unable to hang on to their production till they get a fair dollar for their minis that in my opinion causes the excess minis on the market along with the puppy mill type breeding and that keeps the $ low in the market. I applaud you John for being a truly responsible breeder and I know there are many more of you out there as well but probably not enough of you or we wouldn't be in this predicament.

I received an email from a member here who shared with me a story of a mini she picked up at an auction. Perhaps she will share her story here to give an example as to what can happen to a VERY nice mini. It's not only the puppy mill type mini that ends up like this either and that is why many of us need to rethink our motives, our programs, etc. That will certainly help our minis and ourselves in the longrun. We can only each do what we can do, I fully understand that but as they say "babysteps".... they do lead somewhere, and hopefully to the betterment for the breed.

Jill, thanks for understanding my post. I didn't want to point a finger at you in particular, just wanted to use the words of your post because many many feel as you do.


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## k9mini2 (Dec 15, 2007)

Hi everyone, I don't post often, but come lurk




. Let me add my 2 cents worth.

my husband and I live just 5 miles from a big horse auction that was well know for its "killer market" With the slaughter ban in the US (we are smack in the middle of the US) Prices on all horses had dropped to the cellar. We went down there two weeks ago. BIG horse prices now. Weanling foals registered or not $25 to $100. Yearling to 2 year old unbroke $100 to $150 registered or not. Broke horses (now somone has invested money to have this horse broke to ride mind you) $175 to $600. Ocassionally some hotshot, usually a friend out in the audience pumping the bids gets $1000 or more!





7 years ago before all this started weanlings and yearlings sold upward of $1000 and Broke horses sold $1200 to $3000.

Minis that I see brought in registered or not sell between $100 to $500 and that still seems to be the case not much change in the last 7 years. actually may have gone up as I don't recall any selling for $500 when I first started visiting this auction. I rarely see minis, but when I do people jump all over them.!

What disturbs me the most is the patheticaly skinny horses I am seeing go through. And the killer buyers (I know most of them by having seen them all these years) were not present. These poor horse are starving and no one wants to buy them and the previous owner obviously doesn't want to feed them.

I think we are in this part of the country seeing huge effects of the slaughter ban in the US and I think like a cancer its going to spread over the whole country. It is affecting the puppy mill type breeders, the back yard breeders and the Good but not high class breeders. Unfortunately the only people it hasn't seem to hurt are the very wealthy who have the $100,000 type horses...I am sure that market will feel little effect.

IT really breaks my heart to see the condition of these horses and know that the average person around here won't treat them much better than the place they left. Few people around here put their horses down, they always took them to this sale. It cost about $100 to put a unhealthy horse down (or undesireable one) if you have the vet do it and then another $50 to $100 for someone to haul the carcass off. Some people don't want' to invest that...so out to the back field and a bullet in the head...I think will be the happening and the coyote population will soar with all the extra food. IS that better than the slaughter??? I don't think so my self (especially knowing how heartless some of these guys around here are)

You know a huge number of people don't see horses as pets like most people on this site do...they see them as livestock, have always seen them as such and have little emotion wrapped up in them. They also see them no different than a cow, pig, chickn or any other livestock going to slaughter... Once they are no longer useful or profitable they are worthless and not worth vet bills or feed...





By the way why is it that no one camps on the cow slaughter house doors watching and filming how they kill them... weird



we are are pretty unemotional about the cow that we eat. And funny thing is I grew up on a farm and I had pet calves/cows...And I know when they went to market, they most likely were going to be eaten...hard part of farm life.

Sorry if This upsets anyone, just again my thoughts on this and doesn't mean I am right just thoughts.

Just one added not for the comparison, this morning on RFD TV the NCHA furturiy sale is on. second horse sold for $43,000

that market is still fine, I just cant afford a $43,000 horse!


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## k9mini2 (Dec 15, 2007)

Reading my own note I kina got off track and meant to also say. I have 10 mares, of those 10 probably 6 are in foal and hopefully will have live healthy foals. I am trying to develop a better and better mini with my limited funds. Don't throw me in the backyard breeder category. I am trying to produce what someone can shows...I just don't show just not driven yet I guess...





I mostly raise minis because I love them. I love the babies I like working with my mares, I would raise them if there was no real value on them...I just like them. they make my heart warm and bring a smile to my face when I am around them.





Oh yes I would like to make something from them. But if I don't I will still have them as long as my life circumstances allow it.





I will continue to breed my few mares try to upgrade my herd and just enjoy them. Would love to see one from my breeding show and win, but unless I do it I doubt anyone who shows will give me much attention


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## JWC sr. (Dec 15, 2007)

You might be surprized at the results you get K9. The joy Cindy and I get from seeing someone show one of our babies to a win at any show is the next best thing to seeing one of our grandkids do so. 5 years ago we had not started showing and were just folks that liked the mini's and had been rasing them for a long time. I semi-retired and so did Cindy so we now have the time to enjoy them even more. We are addictted and love being so.





On your other subject of the prices for the big horses and how it is going to effect things in the coming years. I like you am really worried, the incidense of neglect is going up here in the metro-plex of Houston as is shown by the increase in rescue calls. I personally have seen this thru a good friend that works in that area.

The Killer buyers are not as prevalent as they used to be, but they are still there. Now days they only buy the fat horses we used to call pleasure riders, as the death rate during transport is too high on the skinny or ill horses. That sucks as far as I am concerned. but the economics of the thing is working for them. Now days you see nice looking horses on POTS crammed together being hauled into Mexico which is 300 miles or so to the south being hauled down US 59 and the humane socities etc are powerless to do anything about it under the present days laws.





The number of horses that they are seeing has increased dramtically and is sickening. I was raised in a home where horses were animals that we worked on, but they were still viewed as friends particullarly by us kids. As an adult I moved off the farm so to speak and only had performance horses that we used on the weekends. But the love of the horses stayed with us.





This ban on slaughter is a real nightmare as all it has done is drive down prices and making horses disposable items for many people and forced the horses to be transported 100's of miles in really poor conditions. Give me the choice of a quick death or a lingering neglected life and I will take the first please. OH!

I would have much rather have seen tight regulations on methods of slaughter, humane treatment during transport, prior to slaughter and an end use than what we have now which is basically unregulated in-humane treatment of animals that don't deserve it.





Good luck with your foal crop this year, I hope you have your first national champion in it.


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## HGFarm (Dec 17, 2007)

Matt,

By looking the other way, and banning slaughter here in the U.S., this is not helping the horses that are sent to slaughter at all. Now, on top of everything else, they are shipped out of the country while enduring how many hours on a truck with no feed and water, to other locations, to be slaughtered anyway?!! Banning it here has NOT fixed a thing.

Yes, I have seen more and more stories of horses being dumped, and neglected, because now there is not the outlet for those that folks can't or dont want to care for anymore.

Being involved in ranching for years, the trucks that horses are shipped on are packed for a reason- just like the trucks that are hauling beef, sheep, etc.... Less movement as animals mill or fight back there means less liklihood the truck is going to have a wreck or tip over.

Have you ever driven a truck with a bunch of livestock thrashing in it, or a good example is a truck with a water tank on the bank that is not quite full?? The load going back and forth starts to control the truck- pretty much 'rocking the boat'. So, the trucks are packed tight so that animals are not running up and down in it and causing an accident as the truck sways.

It would be nice if everyone could humanely euthanize their horses. It would be nice if everyone had the mind set to even want to do such a thing. Some folks look at it this way... "The old nag not only cost me more in recent vet bills, but is 'no good' any more, and if I have it euthanized, I have to pay for another vet call and the euthanization, and then pay to dispose of it as well when that's done! If we take it to the auction, at least we might get back part of our vet bill and we wont have to deal with all that".

I have seen this time and time again....

I have also seen many folks who enjoy owning animals (of any kind) but when it comes time to euthanize, they just 'dont have the stomache' for it, or the heart, or whatever.... It's part of being a responsible owner! They love Fluffy too much to have them put to sleep... so the illness and misery drags on and on, way past the 'quality of life' stage.

I dont care to get into the breeding part of the conversation either, it is so much more than that.....

And yes, I see on the news, more animals are being dumped- large and small animals. Our economy is in a slump, and with folks losing their jobs, the high forclosure rates, etc.. people are not interested in what happens to their pets. The news the other night here showed real estate agents showing up at homes that folks have deserted and left tons of garbage, possessions and THEIR PETS behind.. they are walking off and leaving EVERYTHING!

The humane societies are full, the rescues are full and needing donations, and there is no other outlet for an old horse that someone will not or can not euthanize now that slaughter houses here are closed.

In 1990 there were 346,000 horses slaughtered in the U.S. and 70,000 sent to Canada for slaughter. This was $156 MILLION in horse meat exported from the U.S. In 2002, there were 42,000 slaughtered here and another 29,000 shipped to Canada to slaughter (this has been going on a long time) for a revenue of $40 million dollars for horsemeat. Since 1996, the slaughter numbers have been decreasing... and I see more and more horse or animal rescues popping up all over that are full and cannot take in any more, and hear of more horror stories involving more rescues, animals being dumped, etc...

Just a few things I observe as I go along in life...



Matt Drown said:


> I wonder how many of you have seen the manner in which horses are slaughtered. The abuse that they receive in the hours leading to their horrible death far outweighs the abuse that some horses receive in private homes. Maybe I would feel differently if the slaughtering were more humane, but it isn't and that is fact.
> 
> Im not going to comment on the breeding thing, because this subject keeps coming up and everyone here has said their piece time and time again. My only opinion now is that I think everyone should take responsibility for their OWN herd, small or large, and make the decisions that you feel is best. But if you really feel the breed is overpopulated, perhaps the solution should start with you, rather than waiting for everyone else to stop their breeding, why don't you set an example and stop your own first.
> 
> ...


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## maestoso (Dec 17, 2007)

I am not denying the valid points in support of slaughter, but like most things, both sides have strong points. Call me naive, a wuss, a hippie, young and stupid, inexperienced, whatever floats your boat really, but I am glad slaughter was banned, and I hope that the US sets the example for the other slaughter houses world wide. I just think there are better ways to take care of things......

I would rather pay for my neighbor to put their horse down, and bury it in my own backyard, then know that they sent it to the slaughter house.

I don't agree with the death penalty either, and I think people are responsible for global warming, and I don't agree with testing on animals . . . . so there you have it!


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Dec 17, 2007)

> Why not humanely euthanize any horse who wouldn't have a fair shot at a good life? Why would you WANT slaughter?


I for one am for slaughter and see it as a necessary evil... The ban of slaughter has only made things worse as many have already stated... And what makes one think that those who are neglecting their horses would pay to have a vet come out and humanely euthanize the horse, when they couldn't put the money into feed, hay, farrier, health etc? And just what would we do with all of the euthanized horses? Cremation of large animals such as a horse is expensive.. My family has the ability to bury the animals we have lost or had to put down on our own land but there are many places where you can not do this..


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 18, 2007)

Horse slaughter is still legal here, and there are still a few licensed Abattoirs that take horses for human consumption.

One positive side of the stupid "Horse Passport" debacle has been that a horse cannot go out of the country or to an Abattoir without it's passport, and all mine have "Not for Human Consumption" stamped on them by our breed Society.

I do not understand how my Knacker (meatmen) can make a good living collecting "fallen stock" and dispatching animals at the farms - cattle, sheep, pigs, horses etc- and he does make a good living, and yet there are no people doing this in the states??

Is it perhaps the distances involved?

But surely withing certain areas at least, that are denser populated, there would be a call and a living to be made??

I pay $100.00 for this good man to come out at any time of the day or night, quickly and humanely dispatch any animal and take it away.

I have no problems with horses being eaten whatsoever, but I do not want my horse put through the trauma. or even possible trauma of going through a slaughter house- I owe it to the animal to see it's end is a good one.

Why stop horse slaughter??

What is so different about horses??

I cringe at the idea of Korean eating dog meat- BUT I would not be so bothered by it if the animals were treated with respect and dignity.

I loathe battery conditions for animals- we have some places I can only describe as concentration camps for Ducks, Geese and Turkeys not far form where I live.

I would close them down long before I would start worrying about horse slaughter.

ALL animals that are going to be eaten deserve to be treated with kindness, sympathy and dignity, why single out horses for special treatment??

I am not nor do I ever wish to be a vegetarian but I think we owe it to all our domestic animals to make sure they have as good a life as possible, short or long, and as kind an end as they deserve.

They are bred by us for specific purposes, they deserve to be killed by us humanely.


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## stormy (Dec 18, 2007)

It is interesting to me that people think slaughter of horses is banned in the US when in truth only slaughter of horses FOR HUMAN CONSUMPTION is banned. Slaughter for human consumption was heavily regulated with strongly enforced laws for transport, humane handling and killing. Slaughter for pet food or rendering is not. Mexican slaughter plants are not. This law has only made suffering greater for throw away horses, it sure has not saved any horses lives or in anyway improved the treatment of horses in the US.


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 18, 2007)

Stormy makes a very good point, as have others. The 'ban' on slaughter has done little but make those who supported it feel good; it has done little or NOTHING to help unwanted horses come to a kinder and more humane end.(BTW, I personally support euthanasia, and would FIND a way to pay for it--and I am fortunate that I, too, can bury on my land-but there is NO question that process IS expensive, start to finish-cost of vet, cost of backhoe-or, cost to have PRIVATE 'contractor' pick up carcass and haul it to the landfill, where yet another fee will be required(not going to do THAT with the ones I've loved...). I have heard that local pet crematoriums are trying to 'come up with' a way, and a fee, to cremate horses, but it is apparently VERY cost-prohibitive, even if they have a facility that can handle horses, as even most minis are considerably larger than the largest dog, for example.)There is NO LONGER a rendering company around here who will come and pick up horse carcasses, even for a fee(the fee out where I live was around $150-200, BEFORE the company simply QUIT doing it-supposedly due to pressure from groups like PETA...yes, another 'wonderful benefit' from PETA and their ilk...)-the hard truth is that a LOT of horse owners are NOT going to make use of humane euthanasia, period. Now, dead horses are being found out on the mesas around Albuquerque! People need to wake up and smell the coffee; QUIT BREEDING unless you KNOW there is a good home waiting(and that means your own, if necessary)--for ANY BREED, ANY HORSE!!!!!!!!! With miniatures, I believe it is more likely that they will simply be passed from owner to owner, and/or, at some point, neglected to death, than go to slaughter; with larger horses, it's off to the kill buyer(although, if you read some of the horse-oriented forums, you will see that those who can bring themselves to attend livestock sales in their area are now reporting that thin, underweight horses are being ABANDONED in the sale pens, even by the kill buyers, because they aren't worth it!!(I do NOT go to sales anymore; I CANNOT afford to take on horses to save, and I CANNOT handle the anger and despair I feel over how many are ending up--it is a lose-lose situation, so I have to stay away.)

Rabbit is right; a decently humane end should be our responsibility for ALL animals, even those that will end up being consumed as food--period. THAT is where our efforts should realistically be focused.

Margo


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## fourhorses (Dec 19, 2007)

Shari said:


> Another problem this brings up... alot of the Anti slaughter people, love rare animals..you know the kind that are kept in Zoo's. Guess what the Zoo's feed those rare animals? Horse meat... and when I worked at the Oakland Zoo...that is all they could afford to feed, is horse meat.


Are you kidding me?! And the pro-slaughter people don't? The first sentence in this paragraph might be the dumbest thing I've read on this subject yet - and on any board for that matter. For a subject that's been beat into the ground that's saying quite a lot.



If that got across the internet for others besides this board to read you'd be harassed as long as the day is long.

I highly doubt at this stage of the game that anyone is going to get anyone else to change their mind. Each side screams "propaganda" against the other and each side wants to win. Each side has an opinion but both sides keep breeding. It's ridiculous to put all the blame on backyard breeders when some of you have expected top dollar for less than perfect results. This stuff about getting your money back that you've put into the horse........hogwash. Just 'cause you spent 2 grand on training doesn't mean the training is worth it. Just because a bloodline says "this breeding should produce a winner" surely doesn't mean it will. That's quite obvious on the sale boards all over.

FWIW I attended several KY kill-buyer auctions several months ago. I was there flipping lips on the TB's in the kill pen and guess what one of the top kb's was buying? Yep, minis.....any that came through. Usually less than $100 with the foal at side going for $25-35 as it's being weaned right there in the auction ring at less than 2 months old. He's been doing it for almost 2 years now. And you know what else? They have a lovely farm and are now breeding many, many minis. It's a postcard perfect farm and it's going to try it's hardest to put you all out of business. Will he? Of course not. But he's got the money and nothin' to lose. His gain? Dirt cheap minis. A nice gluton of slop breeding because of inbreeding (oops, line breeding when it works) and not giving a hoot who the stallion mounts whether it's a good match or not.


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## maestoso (Dec 19, 2007)

You lost me a bit on this one . . . .


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## Elsa (Dec 19, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Horse slaughter is still legal here, I have no problems with horses being eaten whatsoever, but I do not want my horse put through the trauma. or even possible trauma of going through a slaughter house- I owe it to the animal to see it's end is a good one.




as far as I know, the only process (with varying methods) to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out. Your statement is therefore contradictory. If a horse is euthanized, it is not used for human consumption as it has been injected with the drugs to make it go to sleep.


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## Sue_C. (Dec 19, 2007)

> to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out


No, it is NOT simply knocked unconscious...it is KILLED first...then hung. What they use is generally a "humane killer", which is a retractable bolt that DOES instantly kill the animal...of any type or breed.


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## fourhorses (Dec 19, 2007)

Sue_C. said:


> > to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out
> 
> 
> No, it is NOT simply knocked unconscious...it is KILLED first...then hung. What they use is generally a "humane killer", which is a retractable bolt that DOES instantly kill the animal...of any type or breed.


I don't know how they do it in your neck of the woods but the animal is rendered UNCONSCIOUS and hung to bleed out in the US. The animal is rarely dead when it's hooked.


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## Sue_C. (Dec 19, 2007)

> The animal is rarely dead when it's hooked.


I find this difficult to beleive. Slaughter houses have to go by the letter of the law...anyplace that I know of...and there is no way that the law will/would, allow an animal to suffer such a prolonged/painful death. There are random inspections taking place all the time.



> I don't know how they do it in your neck of the woods


In our neck of the woods...and anyplace else in Canada, that I have EVER heard of, they are killed first, as well.





When I was in Alberta, for example, a friend of mine would take any of her own, or her client's horses that had come to the "end"; directly to the Knackers herself. Almost exacltly as Rabbit has already stated...you just walk the horse into a quiet area, and it is done...no fuss, no pain...it is OVER. For many of you who decalar that euthanasia is superior...I have also read articles telling how many times the horse is not dead, but has been found to simply be paralized. Buried alive, most likely...in many cases that will never be known.

In our area, there is a zoo where one may take a horse where it can wanter around in a lush pasture until the day arrives, that it is needed. They too, use the retractable bolt, that delivers immediate/painless death. I am lucky, I have several acres of land...and have the room to bury my much-loved horses and other old friends when their time has come...but many do not have that luxury.


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## tagalong (Dec 20, 2007)

> I don't know how they do it in your neck of the woods but the animal is rendered UNCONSCIOUS and hung to bleed out in the US. The animal is rarely dead when it's hooked.


That may happen in some out of the way place - but NO - the animal is usually VERY dead when it is hooked - which is right after it has died and so it is easy to bleed out. And yes - as I have said earlier in this thread - I know that for a fact - having seen it for myself. More than once.

And that was in the Alberta neck of the woods - not exactly the middle of nowhere.

But again - that goes contrary to what many anti-slaughter-at-all-costs types want to believe - so simply saying that on some horse boards has brought me all kinds of grief. I simply cannot be right - because what I saw was not cruel enough!







> because a bloodline says "this breeding should produce a winner" surely doesn't mean it will.


Yes, *fourhorses* - as many of us have said repeatedly in many, many threads...



> Yep, minis.....any that came through. Usually less than $100 with the foal at side going for $25-35 as it's being weaned right there in the auction ring at less than 2 months old. He's been doing it for almost 2 years now. And you know what else? They have a lovely farm and are now breeding many, many minis. It's a postcard perfect farm and it's going to try it's hardest to put you all out of business. Will he? Of course not. But he's got the money and nothin' to lose. His gain? Dirt cheap minis. A nice gluton of slop breeding because of inbreeding (oops, line breeding when it works) and not giving a hoot who the stallion mounts whether it's a good match or not.


Well. slop breeding, as you put it - is not going to pay off in the end - and that guy will be hip deep in minis he cannot sell.... and he obviously does not care. But I am confused as to what your point was... other than pointing out what an opportunist this guy is... and that a glut of cheap minis being run through the sales rings enables this guy to build his herd...


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## maestoso (Dec 20, 2007)

Tagalong, I don't think anyone is saying that you are wrong. Yo saw what you saw. But, like anyone else who hasn't been to EVERY slaughter house, you can't speak for them all, just the one that yo saw. There ARE slaughter houses that do things right, you know this because you saw it yourself. And there ARE slaughter houses who are cruel and abusive. People know this because they have seen it for themselves.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 20, 2007)

I have NEVER heard of an animal being stunned deliberately and bled out alive except in Kosher and Halal butchering.

And, I have to say, that both forms of ritual slaughter are so very carefully scrutinized by the state that in some cases I would rather have them killed in this way as respect for the animal is built into the ceremony.

I have witnessed Halal/Kosher and "european" methods of slaughter and all were humane- maybe a lot of slaughter houses here could still get better on the "respect and dignity" front but they are trying.

Just for the record- if anyone stopped to think about this for a moment, if the animal were not completely stunned and it was "strung up by it's hind legs" etc- well, the average horse weighs 1200.00lbs would YOU want to be anywhere in the vicinity, let alone a steer in the same predicament.

If the animal is completely stunned, ie out of it, what difference does it make??

I am only concerned with the animals welfare, not the sensibilities of those people who do not think we should eat the pretty ponies, sorry.

All my horses were EUTHANISED ie humanely destroyed- by a Knacker, no Vet involved.

Shot with a captive bolt dead before they quietly hit the floor, this is my preferred manner of dispatch for a large animal.

This is the method used in the slaughter houses here, too, captive bolt, but the animal is not loose in the stall as it was in one video I watched, they are in a crush with their head through a "V" shape- undignified, but the easiest way of immobilising them quickly and it was all over in seconds.

Still not the way I choose to have my horses euthanized though I do not wish them to go through a slaughter house, so they cannot be used for human consumption- I have no problem with them being eaten but, unless they are butchered in a slaughterhouse they cannot be used for eating, they have to go for dog food or rendering, that is the law.


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## sdmini (Dec 20, 2007)

On the slaughter issue technically you are both right and both wrong. A bolt gun to the brain stops brain function rendering them brain dead instantaneously. They are not just unconscious, no more than a person shot in the brain is going to shake it off and go back to their normal routine. In a matter of a few minutes the blow from a bolt gun will stop the animal’s heart and render the animal's brain and body gone.

All meat animals are bled before processing, cattle, chickens, hogs, sheep and yes horses. The reasons for this is if they are not blood will remain in the meat making the taste and texture off, making the cut of meat weigh more yet not yielding more and of course making it much redder. What I am about to say may make some upset but I am providing facts not a colored article based to influence your ideas one way or another. An animal (or person) with a non beating heart will not bleed so while the animal may be brain dead with no chance of recovery the heart at the time of bleeding is still in fact beating.

I have little love for radicals who have closed off their ears to anything but their version of the truth where as I have the utmost respect for animal activist like Temple Grande. While she may not fit in the typical activist mold she looked at one aspect, how cattle were processed, and not only did she think that there was a better way she proved it. Many processing plants and cattle yards have implemented her cattle working designs into their operations. She studied and used the cattle’s own instants’ and behaviors to make them move in the alleys and runways as calmly as if they were going to the bale feeder. My favorite quote of hers is, "they are not product till they are dead, till then we need to treat them with dignity and respect." She worked with in the system to make it better for all instead of bringing about a piece of legislation that has single handedly done more damage to the welfare of horses than anything prior. Ironic isn’t it.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 20, 2007)

I agree about Temple Grande- I watched a programme on her pioneering within the industry and I was amazed- I was expecting the same old "Cow Whisperer" nonsense and instead I got a person who some would still consider "handicapped" speaking more common sense than I have heard in a long, long time.


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## tagalong (Dec 20, 2007)

> An animal (or person) with a non beating heart will not bleed so while the animal may be brain dead with no chance of recovery the heart at the time of bleeding is still in fact beating.


Which is what I was saying - what I saw - way too many times - the horse was dead before it hit the floor - and is then immediately processed and bled out... as the blood keeps flowing and autonomic impulses take a while to slow down and stop...

Except - as *rabbit* noted - in cases involving kosher and Halal butchering..

*Matt * - I have been drawn and quartered at times for not saying that all slaughterhouses are evil and bad and clamouring that they be closed... I have been told time and time again that what I witnessed was "an act" or a lie on my part... and it gets very tiresome. Some want you to react exactly the same way they do, think as they do, etc.

And God forbid that you have any contrary opinions or concerns...


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 20, 2007)

One thing in all this that I have NEVER been able to understand, not will i, is this.

Why is it OK to slaughter cows pigs sheep, etc, for human consumption, but not horses??

I can understand and respect vegans on this front, I cannot understand meat eaters.

If you eat meat then you condone animals being killed that you may do so.

Why is it OK for _any_ animal to be mistreated, to not have the same standards of treatment??

Why is it OK to use a cattle prod on a cow and not OK to use it on a horse??

Why is it OK for any animal to be loaded onto double deckers, packed in and travelled thousands of miles in total misery??

This is hypocrisy, pure and simple.

Shut the slaughterhouses, archive absolutely nothing except misery, pat yourselves on the back and go home.

Newsflash:

Animals are still being slaughtered in less than acceptable conditions, all over the US, all over the WORLD!!

If we, internationally, get laws passed that protect ALL animals bound for slaughter, horses would automatically be protected.

Why was this not done???

I have raised the Korean/dog eating analogy before- I cringe form the idea BUT, if the animals were raised, kept and dispatched in acceptable manners, I could , morally, have no objections.

I would still cringe, but I could do so with a clear conscience, and inwardly.


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## Elsa (Dec 20, 2007)

if the treatment of the horses were improved, I would have no problem with slaughter. As some of you have stated, you took your horse to slaughter and had it put down, which I have absolutely no problem with. My issue is more with the poor conditions concerning mass transportation (when the horses come from feed lots vs a responsible owner) and the fact that mistakes can be made. A bullet doesn't always hit the target (which I have witnessed first-hand in person, not a video online).

i realize everyone has a different stance concerning slaughter, which I completely respect.

My only issue with it is when we are talking about untrained and unprofessional people resulting in the animal suffering.


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## Lost Spoke Ranch (Dec 20, 2007)

Hello Jane:

I'm sorry this question is off topic, but I've been meaning to ask you this for quite sometime. I understand the Rabbit part in your forum name of Rabbitsfizz, but what about the fizz part? Where did that come from? Feel free to answer privately if you'd like.

Dawn


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## littlearab (Dec 20, 2007)

I agree that banning the slaughter of horses in the US is a big mistake. And the effects are there to see right now. I can give any one 4 numbers to call with people trying to give horses away... nice well cared for horses, big and small.. You can buy a registered horse for under $100!! Broke for $250 or less.

We as horsemen and women, as adults should understand that slaughter is a needed part of our world. It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ... the mean and wild ones can buck off ,rear, kick and bite more people. Be sold again to another person who they can do the same too. The poorly bred can grow up to be adults and be bred by some one thinking they can sell the foal.YUP so much better

Like on posted before many times the horses that are slaughtered are poor bred, mean, sick, wild and uncared for... I'm sure once in a while a good one gose that way ,but I sure you if the slaughter buyer see any chance that the horse might be OK they are given a chance, as a broke horse at one time was worth more then a kil horse. But now there is no kill horse so they are all worth litle or nothing. With no market for them as meat.. they slaughter horse will be around for years to come. Many hurting other people... and to put them down with drugs is just a waste.... they are meat and there are many staving poeple in the world...

And I have seen a more then one horse suffer when being put down by drugs.. when it goes bad too.

In the US most people see horses and PETS, but to most the rest of the world they are livestock... livestock is meat..food..

The idea that any slaughter house is going to treat the horses as PETA shows is wrong. They do not go out of there way to hurt the horse. They want and 99.9 percent of the time have a clean quick kill. But PETA only shows the ones that went wrong the worst ones they can find. I have freind who worked at a slaughter house and he said things went right 99.99% of the time, and when it did not they all were upset.. NO one wants to see them suffer. They do not want the horse to jump around like PETA shows.. it would be dumb it would break thier equitment and might hurt workers.

The problem with horse slaughter is not the

slaughter but the long hauls to the plants..


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## maestoso (Dec 20, 2007)

Rabbitsfizz, I can only speak for myself, and say that there ARE people out there who feel the same, but perhaps not on this board, or maybe so, I really don't know.

But in response to your comment, I don't agree with any animal being slaughtered in a careless or abusive manner. I don't agree with any butcher process that starts before the animal is completely dead, or at least completely out of it. So not all horse people who disagree with horse slaughter disregard all the other animals. But since this is a HORSE forum, horses, and in the case of this thread, horse slaughter, have been the focus of my comments.


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## Elsa (Dec 20, 2007)

littlearab said:


> It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ...




When horses are sold to slaughter for consumption, they are sold by the lb. What do you think has more value: a sick uncared for horse or a well-fed and cared for horse? I don't agree with your statement at all. Plenty of "good" horses go to slaughter due to oevrpopulation, most of the time, they are wild because they have never been handled. It has nothing to do with sick, wild and mean


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## HGFarm (Dec 20, 2007)

Matt,

I am not sure I understand your comment to Rabbits... she is NOT saying that some animals can be slaughtered in a careless manner at all! Where did you read that? What she is saying is <I think> that why the big deal about the way horses are slaughtered, when ALL animals that go that route should be slaughtered humanely, no matter what it is.

To me, meat is meat- I have eaten many different varieties, some probably considered 'exotic' I guess you could say - but then, it depends on who you're asking too. To some, it might be normal.


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## Katiean (Dec 20, 2007)

I don't think the topic was slaughter. But, I had a farm kill of an Ostrich and I will NEVER do that again. The guy cought the bird and slit it's throat. He then let it bleed to death. I can only imagine the horror that the bird went through. It doesn't matter what you are processing for food. It just needs to be done humanely.

As for the over breeding, there has been a huge number of very cheep horses in my area. It hasn't been minis as much as big horses. Someone even advertised a 3 year old halter quality arab mare for $100. Most weanlings and yearlings are selling advertised for $250 These are not auction prices. They are advertised prices. They are picture ads and none are in thin condition but, if we continue to breed we are not going to get even $1000 for quality horses.


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## maestoso (Dec 20, 2007)

HGFarm,

What rabbitsfizz meant, was that she doesn't understand those activists who are against horse slaughter but seem to have no problem with the slaughter of other animals, because slaughter is slaughter, regardless of the animal. And in that respect, I agree with her, it doesn't make sense for someone to think that the idea of a horse being slaughtered should be any different from a cow, pig, chicken, etc.

My point was simply that I agree with her, and because I AM against the brutality and abuse that DOES happen in SOME slaughter houses, I wanted to make it clear that I feel the same way about the slaughter of any animal in that manner. But I believe that the reason people are focusing on the horse, rather than other animals, is because this is a horse forum, not because they don't care about the slaughter of other animals.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 21, 2007)

I can see that, BUT, if the laws were in place for ALL slaughter houses, everywhere, whatever animal, the law would be the law,

I know in some cases the laws must be there and just not being enforced, but banning double deckers would be a good way to start- for ALL animals.

Pigs do not like being whanged about on the top deck of these things any more than horses do, even if because of the size it is marginally more humane in the case of a pig.

Ban double deckers (they are already illegal here for horses and cattle) and ban any animal crossing a border alive for slaughter- that is a law I would LOVE to get passed in Europe.

I do not see the sense of packing horses into these crates as tight as they can be and then travelling them hundreds of miles during which some will inevitably die, in order to slaughter them, when they could be slaughtered and butchered in their place of origin (in Europe at least) and then transported far more economically in a freezer truck for as long and as far as they wanted.

I do not see the point of singling out horses, whether this is a horse Forum or not, to stop the slaughter.

Stop ALL slaughter or make the laws work, stopping horse slaughter is pointless and elitist- I do not know how the people who got this law passed can sleep at night!!


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## Reble (Dec 21, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I can see that, BUT, if the laws were in place for ALL slaughter houses, everywhere, whatever animal, the law would be the law,
> 
> I know in some cases the laws must be there and just not being enforced, but banning double deckers would be a good way to start- for ALL animals.
> 
> ...


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## Warpony (Dec 22, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I can see that, BUT, if the laws were in place for ALL slaughter houses, everywhere, whatever animal, the law would be the law,
> 
> I know in some cases the laws must be there and just not being enforced, but banning double deckers would be a good way to start- for ALL animals.
> 
> ...














I usually stay out of these topics but I very much agree with this.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 22, 2007)

> Like on posted before many times the horses that are slaughtered are poor bred, mean, sick, wild and uncared for... I'm sure once in a while a good one gose that way ,but I sure you if the slaughter buyer see any chance that the horse might be OK they are given a chance, as a broke horse at one time was worth more then a kil horse




Ferdinand, the 1986 Kentucky Derby winner who went on to capture the following year's Horse of the Year title with a dramatic victory over 1987 Derby hero Alysheba in the Breeders' Cup Classic, is dead. The Blood-Horse has learned the big chestnut son of Nijinsky II died sometime in 2002, most likely in a slaughterhouse in Japan, where his career at stud was unsuccessful.

Reporter Barbara Bayer, as detailed in an exclusive story in the July 26 issue of The Blood-Horse, attempted to learn of Ferdinand's whereabouts after a member of the Howard Keck family that owned and bred the horse inquired about having him returned to the United States, where he began his career at stud. As a racehorse, Ferdinand won eight of 29 starts and earned $3,777,978, retiring as what was then the fifth leading money winner of all time. His victory in the Kentucky Derby gave trainer Charlie Whittingham his first success in that classic, and it was the final career Derby win for jockey Bill Shoemaker.

Ferdinand was retired to stud in 1989 at Claiborne Farm near Paris, Ky., where he was foaled. His initial stud fee was $30,000 live foal, but he achieved little success as a stallion from his first few crops of runners.

Sold to Japan's JS Company in the fall of 1994 at a time when Japanese breeding farms were aggressively pursuing American and European breeding stock, Ferdinand spent six breeding seasons at Arrow Stud on the northern island of Hokkaido, from 1995-2000. Initially popular with local breeders (he was mated to 77 mares his first year), Ferdinand was bred to just 10 mares in his final year at Arrow, and his owners opted to get rid of him.

After efforts by the farm staff to place Ferdinand with a riding club failed, he passed into the hands of a Monbetsu, Japan, horse dealer named Yoshikazu Watanabe and left the farm Feb. 3, 2001. No attempt was made to contact either the Keck family or Claiborne Farm.

Bayer at first was told by Watanabe that Ferdinand had been "given to a friend." When she asked for more information, she was told Ferdinand "was gelded and I think he's at a riding club far away from here." In fact, records showed Ferdinand was bred to six mares in 2001 and then two in 2002. He spent a period of time at Goshima Farm near Niikappu, where a former handler at Arrow Stud had seen him.

Finally, when Bayer told Watanabe she wanted to see Ferdinand, the story changed yet again. "Actually, he isn't around anymore," she was told. "He was disposed of late last year." Ferdinand's registration in Japan was annulled Sept. 1, 2002, Bayer learned.

"In Japan, the term 'disposed of' is used to mean slaughtered," Bayer wrote in The Blood-Horse. "No one can say for sure when and where Ferdinand met his end, but it would seem clear he met it in a slaughterhouse."

"Unfortunately, to those well-versed in the realities beyond the glitter and glory of the racetrack, it comes as no surprise," Bayer wrote. "Ferdinand's story is the story of nearly every imported stallion in Japan at that point in time when the figures no longer weigh in his favor. In a country where racing is kept booming by the world's highest purses and astronomical betting revenues, Ferdinand's fate is not the exception. It is the rule."

"That's just disgusting," said Dell Hancock, whose family operates Claiborne Farm, upon hearing the news of Ferdinand's likely fate. "It's so sad, but there is nothing anyone can do now except support John Hettinger's efforts to stop the slaughter of Thoroughbreds in this country. That wouldn't change anything in Japan...to have this happen to a Derby winner is just terrible."

While the Japanese are among the societies that consume horse meat, it is more likely a slaughtered Thoroughbred would be used for pet food, since the meat consumed by humans is a certain breed of horse raised specifically for that purpose. The slaughter of no longer useful imported breeding stock and many domestic Japanese Thoroughbreds is not uncommon. Shortages of land and the high cost of maintaining a pensioned horse are reasons slaughter is considered an alternate. As in the U.S., where slaughter is also an option available for horse owners, a number of organizations are attempting to provide homes for retired and pensioned racehorses, stallions, and mares. The Japan Racing Association funds one program that currently benefits 90 horses.

Among the people Bayer met and spoke with while trying to learn of Ferdinand's fate was Toshiharu Kaibazawa, who worked as a stallion groom at Arrow Stud during the horse's years there. He called the former champion "the gentlest horse you could imagine. He'd come over when I called to him in the pasture. And anyone could have led him with just a halter on him. ... He'd come over to me and press his head up against me. He was so sweet."

"I want to get angry about what happened to him," Kaibazawa added. "It's just heartless, too heartless."

End.

Many horses that end up at slaughter is basically because the person doesn't want them anymore or care about them. It is not because they are sick, too old, etc. etc. it's because of us humans basically, animals are disposal, especially in the racing industry.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 22, 2007)

Well written, Danielle but I do not, for one second, buy the fact that the people selling the horse, when it failed to meet their requirements, did not know what it's fate would ultimately be in Japan.

Almost the whole WORLD knows what the ultimate fate of racehorses in Japan is, you may be thankful that they are actually slaughtered now, instead of being left to starve to death as one "retired" racehorse was after it had broken it's leg.

It was in the grounds of a Japanese Vet College when it was found and rescued by Europeans.

I am sorry I cannot remember the exact details but it was instrumental in the laws for humane destruction in Japan being changed- at the time it was illegal except by ritual slaughterers as it is today in Muslim countries.

So if no-one could be bothered to take the horse to a slaughterhouse, basically, nothing was done.

I do not breed pedigree puppies anymore but when I did I had a strict "not fr export" policy which was stamped on their papers- I could even have stipulated specifically not for export to Japan, had I wished, but as dogs were being taken to Australia, re-registered and then exported to Japan it was easier not to export at all.

I cannot say what the situation is at the moment and I would certainly be very glad indeed to see facts to change my mind about the place, but when I was breeding dogs there was a craze for specific breeds in Japan- once a new breed became the "in" thing the old one was, quite simply, put out on the street.

As I said, I would be very glad to hear that this is no longer the case.

However, given the poor reputation the country has, I am surprised the owners sold the horse- no, actually, because I am cynical, I am not actually surprised at all.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 22, 2007)

I was just pointing out that the majority of horses going through slaughter auctions are not horses tha are lame, sick, or elderly. There is a site that I will find, it's a website dealing with horses in the kill pens in the Washington state area, one which is dear to my heart and who I have contributed many times to get them horses out before they are ship out to slaughter. It's so sad because many of these horses are just fine, many are in foal






. Obviously these are from owners that either sold them at low end auctions, THAT IS WHY HATE THESE WITH A PASSION, and basically don't care what happens to them as long as they get their $$ and off they go and breed more of them,






Here, take a look and you will see what I mean. These horses are in a feedlot waiting to be taken away to their death





http://columbiabasinequinerescue.org/DEF-H...ageType=Feedlot

On that site, look at the last horse listed. If I was closer that Paint mare would have a home. What a perfect safe mount for a kid!!!! and yet going to slaughter



. And the mares that are pregnant



. There are usually many more listed on this site but they ship out I believe to slaughter on a weekly basis. I know many times we have had to work against the clock to get the ones we can afford out of this horrible situation. The main site is

http://columbiabasinequinerescue.org

and then if you are going to look at the "gone" part of this site better have a box of kleenex

http://columbiabasinequinerescue.org/DEF-H...p?PageType=Gone


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## Birchcrestminis (Dec 22, 2007)

sad


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## chessyboom (Dec 25, 2007)

I'm not sure how to word this, but I think it could potentially help with these issues.

Are there any type of grants we can apply for to get the money to pay for these lesser quality stallions to be gelded or even mares?


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## Katiean (Dec 25, 2007)

One big problem in my area is that the vets have an association where they "SET" the fees. That is why we spend $350 for a simple geld and other areas see fees of $50-$100. If these vets here would make the fees more reasonable I think there would be more people gelding and less breeding going on. Personally, I do not like to sell my horses. So, if I breed I then have more and more horses. I can't do that. have nothing bred for 08 and I don't think I am breeding for 09.


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## Celeste (Dec 26, 2007)

Charley said:


> Looking back at your posts, I see you are from Australia. Is this post referring to horse overpopulation in Australia?



Yes I am from Australia but I can safely say that the horse overpopulation is not strictly an 'australian' problem, unfortunately it is very much UNIVERSAL.



Field-of-Dreams said:


> Celeste said:
> 
> 
> > If only reputable horse breeders were to stop breeding for one year it would make a big difference to the horse overpopulation
> ...




I would have to say that both "reputable" breeders and BYB should stop breeding for a fair while, I was being conservative when saying that the breeding of horses (and dogs for that matter) should cease for a year, that would not stand to achieve much....I should have also added that in an ideal world legislation would be passed that would stamp out BYB but it isn't an ideal world unfortunately, never was and never will be! Also, there should be a law that dictates how many foals each "reputable" breeder is allowed to bring into the world....

There are also a high number of so-called "reputable" breeders who lay claim to wanting to "better the breed" who breed on a *large scale* and I fail to see how this is done for the betterment of the breed, lol.....even if efforts are made indeed to breed from quality stock, commonsense dictates that there can be too much of a good thing and at the end of the day this is not good for the animal kingdom







Shari said:


> Biggest problem are not the good breeders but the big Horse "Puppy" Mill breeders that breed junk and sell to who ever and those folks are not on this list. Those kind of breeders are the ones to pump out tons of horses with out care to where they go to.
> 
> Me... like I would say most of the breeders here. I only breed sometimes..my last foal is still here. We are also very careful to find very good homes for our horses. I know where all but one of my horses are and how they are doing. In 30 years loosing only track of one is pretty good. Don't like it but until the owner transfers his papers in his name....but I will keep looking.
> 
> ...



It's admirable when breeders do give a darn in ensuring that their horses end up in a good home but given the lifespan of a horse it is safe to assume that horses will change hands more so than any other animal so hence how can a breeder ensure that the horse that s/he is responsible for bringing into the world will always have a loving home? Just curious.....


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## Minimor (Dec 26, 2007)

> If these vets here would make the fees more reasonable I think there would be more people gelding and less breeding going on.


 Would that really make a difference? Are there only two choices? Geld or breed? It's entirely possible to have a stallion & still not breed. The philosophy of "I can't afford to geld my colts & therefore I am breeding more of them" just doesn't make sense to me!


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## Celeste (Dec 26, 2007)

Elsa said:


> I don't see what banning slaughter in the US has to do with anything. Horses are still being shipped to Mexico and Canada. and I also don't understand how anyone who loves horses can be opposed to slaughter being banned. Have you seen the videos online of horses being slaughtered?? it's about the most disgusting thing I have ever seen. Can you imagine your horse going through that?
> 
> 
> 
> > *A visit earlier this year to a feed lot in Elk Grove, and there were 3 beautiful yearlings in poor shape. Horse killer Manny Phelps bought these 3 yearlings from a lady in Vacaville. Every year the lady breeds her mares. And then she brags on the internet how she raises colorful and expensive babies. But no one ever wants these babies, so she sells them to horse killer Manny Phelps. A new batch of babies will be born soon. And horse killer Manny Phelps will be waiting for the lady in Vacaville to call him... - www.tbfriends.com*




I agree Elsa; I made myself watch a couple of videos on the slaughter of horses and it is horrendous to say the least; those images will haunt me forever. The only reason I forced myself into watching those videos is so that I know, without a shadow of a doubt, the truth behind the slaughtering of these majestic animals. Usually the slaughter is far from humane and the horse is forced to endure a lengthy and agonising death; I would have thought that the killing would be swift and humane but instead it is lengthy and cruel; how I would have loved to see the face of the perpetrator! I can only hope that his life and the lives of those like him will be one of sheer heck and that their own deaths will be lingering and painful!!!

So this "Manny Phelps" makes a living out of slaughtering horses, hmm? well I hope that every dollar earned will only serve to bring this germ of a human being sheer misery!!



Shari said:


> As for looking at the online videos of Slaughter... don't trust them. Why.. because PETA will do anything,, yes.. anything including killing animals themselves to make their point and shock people. They have been in trouble before doing what they are doing.
> 
> When I raised lambs, I took them to the local slaughter house...took a tour to see how they run things. I am a picky person about killing any animal. It was a very clean place and the folks knew what they were doing. There was no stress to the animals other than being in a new place. That will happen to any animal that is moved from their farm. For those that have not had to slaughter animals for food, or had them taken to slaughter, do not have a realistic view of the process. Meat doesn't morph into those clean little packages in the store...they come from an animal.
> 
> ...


Sounds like you like your pound of steak, lol. You can't just go on blaming PETA for the cruelty that is forced upon animals!!!! PETA has not been around for decades and yet it has always been known that animals are not always slaughtered in a humane manner! As for your little sarcastic comment that "meat doesn't morph into those clean little packages in the store".....well, surprise surprise but I hate to inform you that we all know that fact! The fact remains that animals are NOT killed humanely and PETA has nothing to do with this and although I am not a fan of PETA (mainly due to the fact that they want to abolish the keeping of pets) it appears that most people who are looking for a cop-out inevitably seek to blame PETA for all the horrific things that are taking place in this world. There are inhumane slaughter people who don't give a darn how much an animal suffers; you only have to take a close look at China and the suffering that is purposefully induced in animals to realise that PETA has nothing to do with the fact that some human beings should have been aborted before being given a chance to live a life where they can cause so much pain and suffering into the animal kingdom.


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## Songcatcher (Dec 26, 2007)

> ... I can only hope that his life and the lives of those like him will be one of sheer heck and that their own deaths will be lingering and painful!!!
> So this "Manny Phelps" makes a living out of slaughtering horses, hmm? well I hope that every dollar earned will only serve to bring this germ of a human being sheer misery!!


So, it is ok to wish pain, suffering, and torture on a human, but slaughter of animals is not ok. THAT is the PETA mentality. Oops, forgot, torture and death of animals is ok with PETA also if it serves to bring about their ends.


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## Margaret (Dec 26, 2007)

Well we all know that thats not the right answer... evil for evil.






But I am on the recieving end of a rescue e-mail list and I get *way too many pleas * for help and money to aid these unwanted horses..

Who can afford this in todays economy?

Then to make matters worse, this list sends me a video of how these horses are now being shipped to Mexico, and inhumanly slaughtered now..

Well I did not need to watch it,- as I could only imadgine... right?

This situtation is not going in a good direction, unless the government is going to step in and house and home these unwanted animals and take care of them...

But thats probably not going to happen either.


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## MiniaturePrincess429 (Dec 26, 2007)

Matt Drown said:


> Miniature Princess, the brick comment is in regards to something you were not apart of, and I don't mean that in a mean way, its just something that happened on another forum , that some people here know about and some don't. I am aware that most people don't throw bricks to solve their problems, which is why it is so ironic that this was the discussion on the other thread, so please, don't comment on that until you have seen that thread.
> 
> And as far as costs of breeding, well I have never heard about breeding costs in any area but here, I don't know anyone who has spent more than a few hundred dollars for vet visits, this includes the ultrasound, 3 rhino shots, and visit when the foal is born. This is of course if everything goes routine, which most of the time, it does. And again I personally do not consider routine care(feed, vet, dentist, etc) for the parents part of breeding costs, because you have those regardless. And I think I DO live in a GREAT place
> 
> ...


thought I'd add: I also live in Southern Maine, and I'm sure that costs are waay more than that, especially with the lack of large animal vets in this area.


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## Celeste (Dec 27, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> You know what I am no longer even sure what the pint of this thread is??
> 
> So...we stop breeding because we are responsible breeders and everyone knows just how much the Miniature Horse Industry is adding to the Horse slaughter problem??
> 
> ...




The whole idea is that so-called "responsible breeders' stop breeding for a while and then a law should be brought whereas no registered breeder should be allowed to breed more than say 2 foals per year and the byb should NOT be allowed to breed PERIOD.


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## Celeste (Dec 27, 2007)

Songcatcher said:


> > ... I can only hope that his life and the lives of those like him will be one of sheer heck and that their own deaths will be lingering and painful!!!
> > So this "Manny Phelps" makes a living out of slaughtering horses, hmm? well I hope that every dollar earned will only serve to bring this germ of a human being sheer misery!!
> 
> 
> So, it is ok to wish pain, suffering, and torture on a human, but slaughter of animals is not ok. THAT is the PETA mentality. Oops, forgot, torture and death of animals is ok with PETA also if it serves to bring about their ends.



Bloody oath it's okay to wish pain & suffering on what YOU personally regard as "human beings!" In my books such creatures are nothing short of monsters and they deserve EXACTLY the same kind of suffering and anguish that they themselves impose on a poor defenseless animal!!! Why should I have compassion for such germs, if only it were indeed possible to tell that a fetus would grow to be such a discompassionate and evil adult I would hope that its mother would be in her rightful mind to abort before it gets a chance to create such misery.

Don't copy and paste only what you see fit!!! I specifically stipulated that I do NOT believe in PETA so don't go throwing them into the equation simply to suit your own ends! I have my own mind set and that has nothing whatsoever to do with PETA!!!!!! I also made mention that my argument is not about the slaughtering of animals but the manner in which this is conducted, there are ways and there are ways and I don't believe that I am being unreasonable in EXPECTING that the slaughtering of animals be conducted in a swift, sensible and HUMANE manner! Obviously you don't care how much an animal is made to suffer hence you are defending those butchers that don't care how many attempts they have to make to eventually destroy an animal, putting an animal through sheer agony, fear, torment and atrocious pain!

AND YES I STILL MAINTAIN THAT ANY SUCH "HUMAN" THAT INDUCES SUCH SUFFERING BE MADE TO LIVE A LIFE OF TORMENT AND SUFFERING AND MAY THEIR OWN DEATH BE 10 TIMES WORSE THAN WHAT THEY'VE PUT THE POOR ANIMALS THROUGH AND I WOULD EASILY AND PROUDLY SAY THIS ON A MOUNTAIN TOP! AMEN.


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## PaintNminis (Dec 27, 2007)

This is Very Eye Opening


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## Celeste (Dec 27, 2007)

Oh Songcatcher, perhaps the following website will act as a reminder as to what a horse is forced to endure during its final moments, but I have the feeling, generated from your post, that this will not perturb you one little bit!!!!

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528



Sue_C. said:


> > to kill something for consumption is to render the animal unconscious, hang it up and let it bleed out
> 
> 
> No, it is NOT simply knocked unconscious...it is KILLED first...then hung. What they use is generally a "humane killer", which is a retractable bolt that DOES instantly kill the animal...of any type or breed.


You, my dear, have quite a fair bit to learn or you need to throw out your rose-coloured glasses! I don't know whether to laugh or cry at your statement that a "humane killer" is used when slaughtering horses! Horses are often hung upside down and their throats are slashed whilst they are still very much conscious!!!

Perhaps you need to see the facts for yourself.....

http://www.sharkonline.org/?P=0000000528


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## Celeste (Dec 27, 2007)

k9mini2 said:


> Reading my own note I kina got off track and meant to also say. I have 10 mares, of those 10 probably 6 are in foal and hopefully will have live healthy foals. I am trying to develop a better and better mini with my limited funds. Don't throw me in the backyard breeder category. I am trying to produce what someone can shows...I just don't show just not driven yet I guess...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




You would be rightfully classed as a LARGE SCALE breeder irrespective of your claims that you are breeding for the show ring! Breeding simply because you happen to want to upgrade your herd and to just "enjoy" them or simply because they bring a smile to your face is no reason to be bringing so many foals into the world! I would hate to think if every horse owner stood to breed 6 mares yearly how many more horses would simply end up as dog food or killed and exported for human consumption. You have to bear in mind that horses have a long life span and it is highly unlikely that you will be able to ensure that they will have a happy life and most of all a dignified ending. Think of the long term consequences instead of your own short term hobby, being selfless would make such a huge difference in this world!!!!



JWC sr. said:


> You might be surprized at the results you get K9. The joy Cindy and I get from seeing someone show one of our babies to a win at any show is the next best thing to seeing one of our grandkids do so. 5 years ago we had not started showing and were just folks that liked the mini's and had been rasing them for a long time. I semi-retired and so did Cindy so we now have the time to enjoy them even more. We are addictted and love being so.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Any reason why a ban is not in place to prevent horses being exported to Mexico and other neighbouring towns???? What's the point in banning the slaughtering of horses in the US and yet still allow the horses to be transported to other areas where they are forced to endure a lengthy and anguishing ride to their deaths?????

THE ONLY WAY TO RESOLVE THIS IS TO BAN BYB AND TO INSTILL A LAW WHERE ONLY 2 FOALS PER registered BREEDER!!!







littlearab said:


> I agree that banning the slaughter of horses in the US is a big mistake. And the effects are there to see right now. I can give any one 4 numbers to call with people trying to give horses away... nice well cared for horses, big and small.. You can buy a registered horse for under $100!! Broke for $250 or less.
> 
> We as horsemen and women, as adults should understand that slaughter is a needed part of our world. It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ... the mean and wild ones can buck off ,rear, kick and bite more people. Be sold again to another person who they can do the same too. The poorly bred can grow up to be adults and be bred by some one thinking they can sell the foal.YUP so much better
> 
> ...






Elsa said:


> littlearab said:
> 
> 
> > It has it's place, it is the best place for the lower end of that market... the poorly bred, mean, sick, wild, uncared for. And to not have that place only sets them up for a life time of suffering.... so the uncared for not being sent to slaughter so they can stand in drity pens starving.. ...
> ...



DITTO. Horses are sent to their deaths because of overpopulation and not because of some misguided idea that it's only the sick, skinny or wild etc that are doomed.



Danielle_E. said:


> > Like on posted before many times the horses that are slaughtered are poor bred, mean, sick, wild and uncared for... I'm sure once in a while a good one gose that way ,but I sure you if the slaughter buyer see any chance that the horse might be OK they are given a chance, as a broke horse at one time was worth more then a kil horse
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You would think that the owners of Ferdinand would have had the heart to keep him considering the amount of money that he made for them! All I can say is that I hope Karma bites his former owners in the backside and that they don't get to enjoy any of the 3 millions or so dollars that they easily reaped only to dispose of Ferdinand just like toilet paper!!!


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## crponies (Dec 27, 2007)

First of all, let me say I have not read this entire thread. However, I did want to say a few things in response to what I have read. Why do we breed horses? That is the question posed as the title of this thread. Actually, I am currently not a breeder although I have been and maybe will be again someday. I can say that my goal for breeding was to breed animals that other people could gain joy from owning. I did my best to sell the ones I sold to people I thought would be good, responsible owners. None of us can guarantee how other people will treat animals though. People lie and people change. The people we sell to may be good owners but then sell to someone who isn't. The only way to guarantee that a horse has a good home for life is if we provide that ourselves. However, if we did that then no one new would ever get the chance to experience the joys of horse ownership. It would be much harder to incorporate some new blood into your herd also. So, I think selling is a necessary part of the horse industry. In order to sell, there has to be new animals generated. In order to perpetuate horses, there has to be breeding. I truly believe most of the people here on this forum are responsible horse owners and if they breed do that responsibly as well. If they sell, the strive to do that resposibly because they have put money, effort, affection, worry, blood, sweat, and tears, etc. into these foals. They don't throw them away. The problem is with those people who are not responsible owners and we all know that. Coming on here and saying so is like preaching to the choir. Those irresponsible owners are going to get horses from somewhere. If the responsible breeders quit breeding and selling, it wouldn't change them one bit. In fact, they might even start breeding more. That's definitely not what we need. What about all those unwanted horses? They were all wanted at some point by somebody. Unfortunately, they are no longer wanted by anyone around them. Some of them are unhealthy, injured, lame, or mentally messed up to the point they could no longer have a good quality life. Some of them are healthy in all respects but maybe aren't trained or something along those lines. For whatever reason, they are now in the catergory "unwanted." Sad? Yes. Avoidable? Perhaps so, perhaps not; it depends on each horse's unique circumstances. Are they truly unwanted though? No! There are people on this earth who enjoy eating horsemeat. Would I want to do so? No, but I refuse to condemn those who do. I believe that "every creature of God is good and nothing to be refused if it be received with thanksgiving." Americans don't eat horsemeat because it is not in our culture to do so. That's the only reason. Many Indians do not eat cow and probably think it is dispicable and disgusting that we do. Again, it is a cultural thing. So, I think that a horse ending up being eaten is slightly sad to me but not really bad. At least that horse has some purpose even in its death when it may not have had one in life. That said, if a horse is to be eaten, it needs to be slaughtered in a humane way. If you read up on the captive bolt gun (I suggest sites such as thehorse.com), you will find out it is actually a very humane way for a horse to be killed. It is perhaps even more humane than lethal injection. The problem in those videos you posted, Celeste, is that aparently it was not be used correctly which turned something that should have been quick and painless into torture. That is wrong! However, please remember that just because something moves does not mean that it feels pain. A horse can be hit with a captive bolt gun and be dead but still move. Muscles have a way of moving even after death. Just think of a lizard's tail flopping around after it has come off the lizard. Is that tail feeling pain? Is it really alive? No, but it is moving. Movement does not equal pain and life.

Hmmm, ok, I guess I have had my say now.



To summarize, I support responsible horse ownership, breeding, and selling. I also support humane horse slaughter.

Edited to add: I know I already wrote a book, but wanted to say a big part of this view is that although I value animals tremendously, I know they are animals. Humans are not. Humans are special becuase we are made in God's image. This is one of my core beliefs and shapes my views of many things.


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## Celeste (Dec 27, 2007)

*The problem in those videos you posted, Celeste, is that aparently it was not be used correctly which turned something that should have been quick and painless into torture. That is wrong! However, please remember that just because something moves does not mean that it feels pain. A horse can be hit with a captive bolt gun and be dead but still move. Muscles have a way of moving even after death. Just think of a lizard's tail flopping around after it has come off the lizard. Is that tail feeling pain? Is it really alive? No, but it is moving. Movement does not equal pain and life.*

Hmmm, ok, I guess I have had my say now. biggrin.gif To summarize, I support responsible horse ownership, breeding, and selling. I also support humane horse slaughter. - written by crponies.

crponies, I beg to differ in that, as you claim, a horse can be hit with a bolt gun and still move. Those images on those videos clearly demonstrate that the horse in question was still very much alive, it was more a case of the idiot not aiming correctly and hence missing the vital points which would have put an end to that poor horse's misery! That horse clearly felt the pain every step of the way! If a horse is killed by someone who knows what they're doing there is no movement whatsoever! Sometimes muscles can twitch but that is vastly different to an animal attempting to gain its composure and trying to get up again! Yes that horse felt pain, it was not dead and it doesn't take Einstein to figure that out. I have had several elderly dogs of mine put to sleep by injection as they would have died in a matter of days or weeks anyway and they died peacefully, there was no twitching, no movement, nothing, zero....it's as if they just drifted off to sleep and that is how it should be, death equates no movement!


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## Jill (Dec 27, 2007)

This thread keeps going on and on and on and on.

Personally, I am someone who takes breeding horses VERY seriously. I have honestly spent years deciding if I wanted to breed. Then spent years more learning and then picking out my breeding herd prior to putting a program into action. I expect my first home bred foals, out of all this time I've had miniatures, this Spring.

I would hate to see the top notch breeders limited to two (or even twenty in some cases!) foals per year. There are some amazing breeders who are responsible for massive improvements to the breed. And, if not for some of them, I'd not have the horses I treasure so much.

It's s free country. Instead of even pretending and day dreaming it's possible to enforce breeding limits, how about educating buyers and aspiring breeders. If the non-breeding quality mares and stallions stopped reproducing, because their owners came to realize they are not physically breed quality, THAT would reduce numbers considerably.


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## anita (Dec 27, 2007)

Jill, very well put. Couldn't have said better

Anita


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## Songcatcher (Dec 27, 2007)

Obviously we are just all so intellectually inferior to Adolph Celeste that we should have no say in the matter. If we only had the sense to let this person make all the decisions in the world all our problems would be solved.

NO ONE on this thread has advocated that it is alright to inflict any kind of pain and torture on ANY living creature except Celeste.

If you believe everything you see on video, you become very sick and twisted. Obviously.


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## Jill (Dec 27, 2007)

No kidding





Hey, if Celeste was willing to come and help me take care of my horses, work with my horses, worry over my horses, purchase my horses, buy feed for my horses, pay for vetting for my horses, etc. etc., etc., I _might_ even give her half a vote in what I decide to do with my horses.


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