# Opinions please...



## rabbitsfizz (Apr 29, 2011)

OK, here's the problem. Misty is going quite well, he goes forward into the bit when ground driven, and he accepts the whip aids. In the cart I feel he is behind the bit and he does not like the whip, not one bit! Now I am happy to accept this is my fault as I am and always have been a "rein slapper" so I have been being very careful with this one!

Should I go back to ground driving (I am limited in my ability to do this as I cannot walk far) or, and this is my gut feeling, just throw him back out with the boys and leave him 'til next year? He is three, but a fairly immature three.

It s not as if I do not have enough to do, I had DC gelded yesterday, and as soon as I can I should like to start him off- he is also three but a lot more mature.

The only thing that keeps me going on with Misty is that I did want to drive him at the breed show- but, of course, his well being comes first and I just feel he is getting a bit "sour".

He loves working, he loves the cart, he loves the attention he gets and he _adores_ being told he is a good boy, but the whole thing is not gelling, not in the cart.

So- push on (gently, of course) or turn away and let him grow up naturally??

Send me a postcard, drop me a line, stating points of view.....all welcome


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## Marsha Cassada (Apr 29, 2011)

I felt the same way about Dusty last year when he was 3. He loved working but he just couldn't seem to understand. He is so much better now at age 4. I had hoped to show him last year, but there was no way. I could tell it was a question of mental maturity. We just kept plugging away through the summer, fall, winter. I'm not sure it would have been a good idea to totally leave him out of the cart for those months, waiting for the light to come on. I think Dusty needed a little constant pressure to keep him moving forward with training.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Apr 29, 2011)

Could there be another reason he is getting sour? What about tooth issues? (I know you have loads of experience with horses but sometimes the obvious answers are the ones we over look) He may be avoiding contact because its uncomfortable. How often is he worked? So many variables but if he honestly enjoys work normally I would be looking for what is making it no fun for him now. Is the harness comfortable? Is there anything going on with the bit, perhaps an edge has developed or...? Thats all I can think of right now. I will be following this thread with interest to see what other ideas are out there. Seems to me tho that if he enjoys working/being handled his lack of focus (I have one of those to and he's 4) shouldn't make him avoid contact nor be touchy about the whip.

I just reread you post and it seems it is only when he is hitched that he has an issue (?) If it is only then I would be looking for what it is about the weight of the cart he is objecting to. Could he have a sore back?

Sorry I guess all I did was give you a bunch of questions lol


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## ClickMini (Apr 29, 2011)

I have the same issue with Esprit. He easily drops behind the bit and rolls forward. I am going to spend the rest of this year putting on MILES, not arena miles, trail miles. Just get out and get moving, I want a nice, forward easy motion that I can coax back together in time. I think that is the best way to treat horses that are sucking back, just to get out on the road and go.


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## Sue_C. (Apr 30, 2011)

I would go with the "gut-feeling", as I have found, as I am sure you have...it is yourself telling you it is the right thing.

I generally put a month of groundwork on a three year old, then put them back out till the next year when they are more mentally prepared to "face the world" so to speak. It worked with both my riding and driving horses. I would much rather work with a mind that is prepared to work with me. The mare I started last year was five; and if I hadn't seen her born here, and known she'd never been harnessed, I would of thought she'd already been, she was that easy. None of that immature silliness, all interest, and curiosity...but ready to go forward with a solid attitude.

Good luck!!!


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## RhineStone (Apr 30, 2011)

Is the cart too heavy? Muscles not developed enough to pull?


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## Sandee (Apr 30, 2011)

Listen to your "gut". I find that's the best advice you'll get.

However, the point Rhinestone makes is a good one. Maybe it's something about the cart that "changes" things for him. The first year I drove my stallion (at age 3) he willingly "went" forward but he never had much "go". It was like I had to force him to move (we had to force him to longe even - he's just very lazy). Could be he just needs more time and miles.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 30, 2011)

What is different, as far as I can see, is my position. When I am ground driving, my head is level with his, more or less (I am tiny, remember)

When I am in the cart I sit above his line of sight, so the whip becomes a big scary monster!

I have taped the lash, so it does not flop around, and I keep it low and resting on his backside, and just tap with it- AFAICS, I have done it all right, which is why I am thinking it may be a growing up thing.

The cart is light weight and well balanced, the ground is hard at the moment (no rain) so it pulls easily, and he is still in an open bridle, and I am loathe to change this (ever!), so he can see everything.

He has breeching, which I sometimes use and sometimes do not but it makes no difference to the way of going, he goes up into the bit fine when I am on the ground.

I am careful to keep my hands down when in the cart, so they are more or less in the same place as when I ground drive.

ACK!!!


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## RhineStone (Apr 30, 2011)

Are you using an open bridle? Maybe he needs a blinder bridle.

Myrna


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## rabbitsfizz (May 2, 2011)

I have never driven in blinkers- well, once, to be honest and I wrapped the cart wheel round a gate post because I was distracted by the ten million very small children I had picked up from school!

Had the pony been able to see what was going on behind him it would not have happened, so I have not used them since and have never had a horse that needed them- I would use them if it was a safety issue and I had a reason to be driving that horse, but, otherwise, I do not want to, Misty has never needed them- which surprised me as he was a nervous colt. Since being gelded he has calmed right down.

As I said, in the cart I am higher up and that might be what is changing his attitude.

Since everyone in my district already thinks I am certifiable, this is what I am going to try:

I am going back to ground driving, but I am going to hold my hands up in the air so they are in the position they would be in if I were in the cart.

After they let me out of the hospital, I am going to push him quite hard for a week only, then throw him back out to play for a full month, bring him up and reassess him. If he needs another year, he can have it, no problemo.

What do you think??


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 2, 2011)

I think you are on the right track, eliminate one possibility at a time and you'll eventually find the key. If your hand position is the problem you will find out promptly I expect. It would make me wonder tho if your higher hand position changes the angle of pull on the bit and if that bothers him...why? Does he need a different bit, does this one dig into his mouth somehow? or is it something else? You really have me curious now so please, don't leave us hanging, lol. Let us know how it goes and what you discover if anything. Oh and btw, ALL horse people are certifiable (or appear to be at least) so the general public can just enjoy the show (I live in a very private place otherwise I would long since have been packed off in a straight jacket I expect)

just thought of something, if you have someone who can help you out a bit, someone much ...erm.. less vertically challenged, they could ground drive and see if they get a reaction from Misty. Just a thought since your raising your hands may not give the same feel as just being higher up.


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## keely2682 (May 2, 2011)

i will preface this with a note for newbies-

please do NOT leave your training area until your horse is well broke and knows WHOA well!

be sure you can handle your horse in the arena before you venture out!

since he is (already broke and) bored, immature, unmotivated, or souring-

i would also suggest trail miles especially with company:

on your way back towards home he should be much more motivated and forward moving,

getting out will build his confidence,

another horse will help motivate him, and another driver will give you company to chat with

i think long, slow miles are a great way to train

i wouldn't push him until he's ready but i wouldn't give up on driving him either

i use trail miles and driving with other horses to motivate my young slackers

its so much more enjoyable for all of us until they mature enough to do show type driving

it also keeps my show horses from getting bored or sour once they are trained


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## RhineStone (May 2, 2011)

I really don't think this is a hand position issue. 

 

Some horses need blinders, others don't. I start most of my minis in an open bridle, even put to the cart for the first few times, but Alax wasn't "most minis". He needed that blinder bridle. Some of my big horses needed blinder bridles. Each horse is an individual, and one experience should not a "rule" create. If Misty is afraid of the whip, he needs to either be conditioned to it more or have blinders on so that he cannot see it coming. Blinder bridles also help the horse focus on "forward" which is what you want a driving horse to be.

 

But, I bet it is more of the weight that is affecting his lack of motivation, and some time off to "grow up" might be of benefit to him. Keep line driving and possibly pulling some shaft trainers.

 

Myrna


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (May 2, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> But, I bet it is more of the weight that is affecting his lack of motivation,
> 
> Myrna


I do agree with this, my read on this would be he is uncomfortable in some way. If he reacts only when the driver is in the cart it is likely to do with the extra weight but no harm will come from testing from front to back so to speak.

Fascinating topic, I enjoy seeing all the different thoughts and ideas posted.


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 2, 2011)

I agree with Myrna's last post. When I first read this:



rabbitsfizz said:


> What is different, as far as I can see, is my position. When I am ground driving, my head is level with his, more or less (I am tiny, remember) *When I am in the cart I sit above his line of sight, so the whip becomes a big scary monster!*


...my first reaction was to snort and think "That is why God invented blinkers!"



Honest to goodness, if he can't see the whip in its scary new position then he'll learn it doesn't do anything different than it did before and he'll calm right down. I'm with you and see no need for blinkers on my boys but on the other hand I've driven with them for years and the horses learn pretty quick where the edges of the cart are and start aiming for the middle of openings just as they do in an open bridle. (Besides, the real lesson of that incident you had was to pay attention to your driving, not to make it easier for the horse to save you!



)

I honestly don't think that likely has much to do with it though, and if it does I'd spend a lot of time climbing up on your wooden fences with goodies and a whip and hovering over his head with it until he gets over it.





Given what you've described however it's far more likely IMO to be an issue with either the weight of the cart (it may not be that heavy but he may have a mental issue with being asked to pull it, as in "this isn't fun anymore") or something you are doing that you're not seeing. Are you sucking your own energy in as you drive and rolling your shoulders and head down to look at him? That's one very common mistake people make when they get in the cart and you've said you're sitting up higher in the cart than you're used to being on foot. You might very well be "curling up" yourself, and he's merely imitating you. I agree with Keely and the others that either way taking him out of his normal environment and getting him forward in a way he understands will likely sort the whole thing out. Miles, miles, and more positive, interesting miles! Since I know very well you don't have many "new" places to go with him (lots of lovely driving fields but not so many trails and paths except maybe the city streets past the pub) it might be a good idea to simply throw him back in the pasture to mature for awhile. Once he's past the teenage "this is too hard!" tantrums he may do better. I would keep ground-driving him though as long as you can make it interesting for him.



rabbitsfizz said:


> Since everyone in my district already thinks I am certifiable, this is what I am going to try:...After they let me out of the hospital, I am going to push him quite hard for a week only, then throw him back out to play for a full month, bring him up and reassess him. If he needs another year, he can have it, no problemo.
> 
> What do you think??


I think it sounds good. Just listen to your gut on his attitude and if he's only getting more sour as you push him, stop immediately! That part could do real mental damage if pushed through for the wrong assumed reason. Do check his acceptance of the whip higher up above him and check out his reaction to a higher rein position before going back to the cart. It should be fairly easy to stand by his ribcage and ask him to give to the bit to each side by lifting your hand and drawing the rein across his withers and see if he curls up or acts unhappy. This could very well be an equipment thing, a mental maturity thing, or a combo of the two.

Many green horses who aren't sure how to use their bodies will react to the weight of the cart by trying to curl their heads down to pull poll-first. They're trying to use their toplines and the weight of their heads for leverage but don't know yet how to use the abdomen and shoulders to do the job properly. If it's that sort of thing I'd build his understanding of proper balance in long lines, have him pull a light drag that doesn't tax him in a proper frame, and leave his mouth pretty much alone when I'm in the cart so all he has to do is walk around. As he became ready for it and started putting the other lessons together I'd gradually take up contact in the cart and praise, praise, praise as he accepted it.

Leia

P.S.- For those who are wondering, MiniHGal and I visited Rabbitsfizz when we went to England. What a blast!


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