# Muslim Brotherhood



## ozymandias (Jun 20, 2012)

Votes are still being counted but despite that the Muslim Brotherhood have declared victory in Egypt's 2012 elections.

The Brotherhoods goal is to instill the Qu'ran as the "sole reference point for ordering the life of the Muslim family, individual, *community and state*".

Anyone in this country who doesn't stand up for separation of church and state because they are christian and think America is a Christian nation had better start looking at the fact that because of huge birth rate differences Christianity is declining and Islam is fast on it's way to becoming the worlds largest religion.

See how much you want to protect that separation when Islam is America's most influential religion and Sharia Law becomes State Law!


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## HGFarm (Jun 20, 2012)

I dont really want to comment much on this, as I have family that has lived in Saudi Arabia for 40 years now- my sister is married to a Saudi. The REAL Muslims are nothing like the fanatics and crazy people who think it's ok to run around shooting people. I have been over there to visit and was treated very kindly with lots of hospitality. Their crime rate is EXTREMELY low.

I find good and bad in any culture and before making judgements, really ask that folks wear the other guy's shoes for a while to really try to understand where they are coming from and the TRUE culture of the regular people- not the crap of a few that you see on the news. This is why they make the evening news- they are not the norm.


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## ozymandias (Jun 20, 2012)

I don't think I made any comments on the "normal" vs. extremists in the Islamic faith. My comments were that they have no separation between church and state as we do. I'd like to keep it that way


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## sfmini (Jun 20, 2012)

Thank you Laurie.


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## Norah (Jun 21, 2012)

church and state are not separated here ...I wish it were : ( with so many muslims already in the US , Iam afraid that an American will be a minority it its own country in a matter of a few years if it isnt already. I dont think there is any place in the world that has allowed this to happen with allowing so many forigners without guidlines , registration , and requirements to obey the basic laws of that society .In a matter of years Americans will be leaving their country, because it will no longer be their country . Sorry if I have offended anyone , but this is how a lot of European people view America as well . I am sad for my country, whats left of it : (


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## ozymandias (Jun 21, 2012)

HGF,

I don't think you read my post at all...or if you did you read something into it that 100% wasn't there. My post wasn't commenting at all on anyone's religion or how they practice it. I completely agree with you that the vast majority of muslims live very peaceful, caring, productive lives and have been greatly tainted by the horrors of the minority.

My post had nothing to do with Muslim's other than Sharia Law is State law in some countries. My post had everything to do with the absolute importance of the separation of church and state.

Do you want someone telling you that you HAVE to live by their religion? That schools HAVE to teach based on someone's religion? Lets forget we mentioned Egypt and the Muslim Brotherhood and lets say the thread started by mentioning a country run by Scientologists.

Do you want everything about our nation's politics, education, health care etc to revolve around being forced to attend the Church of Scientology? Do you want your kids or grandkids being forced to learn that we're all possessed by aliens from another planet if that's NOT what you believe?

America is full or people of different faiths and no faith. THAT is what needs to be protected - that right of every citizen to practice, or not, the religion of their choice. THAT is something we should all fight strongly to defend. Separation of Church and State allows us that privilege.

I no sooner want to be forced to live under a Muslim Law than a Christian one. Our founding fathers got it right when they realized that we must all defend that separation in order for us all to have the freedom to live according to our own beliefs or lack thereof.


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## HGFarm (Jun 21, 2012)

I getcha..........



However we are already being told by the government what we can and cant do in regards to religion. No more pledge of allegiance, no more 'under God', many many thinks that is leaning towards a dictatorship, and wait til Agenda 21 is complete. They will tell you where to live, what you will do for a living and whether or not you are even going to get health care. A handful will run the world- oh wait- they do already. There are so many ridiculous things going on in this country/world, this is probably one of the last of my worries. They want all animals microchipped for 'food safety'?? Then tell me why this includes pets like cats, dogs and horses? I could go on and on.........

I guess I am just a bit tired of hearing about the Muslims and their way of life being HORRIBLE- if it suits them, that is great. The sheeple that live in this country need to grow spines and stand up for things instead of letting the gov't walk all over them. I will get off my soapbox now, because I really dont want to get started on it- makes my blood pressure go up, LOL


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## Matt73 (Jun 21, 2012)

Norah said:


> church and state are not separated here ...I wish it were : ( with so many muslims already in the US , Iam afraid that an American will be a minority it its own country in a matter of a few years if it isnt already. I dont think there is any place in the world that has allowed this to happen with allowing so many forigners without guidlines , registration , and requirements to obey the basic laws of that society .In a matter of years Americans will be leaving their country, because it will no longer be their country . Sorry if I have offended anyone , but this is how a lot of European people view America as well . I am sad for my country, whats left of it : (


What's an American? America is a land of immigrants; mainly, at one point, European. A true "American" is a native one.


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## ohmt (Jun 21, 2012)

Norah-your post made me very sad, and probably not for the reasons you had intended.


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## Norah (Jun 22, 2012)

well , its how the world thinks , try comming to Europe ....They use American politics as "what not to do " lol do you know a man in Saudi cut his daughters head off the day before yesterday , because she ran away from her arranged marriage ? The Father went to the police with the severed head in his hands . there are a LOT of these types of killings going on everyday , many times a day ...


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## ozymandias (Jun 22, 2012)

FYI that was in India not Saudi.


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## Norah (Jun 22, 2012)

I read Saudi . but something very similar happened on the same day


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## MajorClementine (Jun 22, 2012)

I think no matter what country you are in you can find fault with your own country and easily point fingers at other countries. America is what it is today because of people from other countries coming to find freedom from many things. The system isn't perfect. But I don't believe it has been corrupted by any one thing (religion for example) or one person. As people in general become more self serving and power hungry things will get worse.

It is horrible that someone would behead their daughter over anything. However, we can't forget that a father just recently blew up his two sons after "chopping" at them with a hatchet here in America. Horrible things happen every day in every country.

As far as the original post, I do believe in a separation of church and state. But I also believe this country was founded by God fearing men. Do I think everyone should believe in God? No. That is an individual choice. But it is just as wrong for them to be able to force the word "God" to be taken out of the pledge as it is for them to be punished for not believing in a God. I believe that we need to learn, practice, and teach tolerance and understanding for people, races, cultures and religions.


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## ozymandias (Jun 22, 2012)

I'm confused how you can say you support the separation of church and state on one hand and they say you believe the word "god" should be left in our national pledge of allegiance? There's no separation there at all?

The pledge was written in 1892. "under god" wasn't added until 1954.

Under what god? You know how many imaginary god's humans have invented throughout the ages. Do you want it to read "One nation under Hanuman" The hindu monkey god? Hanuman is as real to Hindu's as any other god is real to those worshiping him/her/it. Why should their god get no respect? There was a time when people thought thunder came from an angry god. That a solar eclipse was an angry god trying to steal the sun. There are people in this country who believe a god made the world 6000 years ago in one short week that doesn't mean it has a right to be taught as fact in our public schools because it's not fact, it's just a religious belief from one type of religion.

THE fastest growing "religious" group in America today is....those with no religion. In fact the 'American Religious Identification Survey' in a major study recently published that those who claimed "no religion" were the ONLY demographic group that grew in ALL 50 states in the past 18 years. With the knowledge we have gained through science, like evolution being factual, that group can do nothing but grow more in the years to come.

I 100% believe and support everyone's right to practice their own religion and more firmly believe that no one religion has a place in our State. No where in the American Constitution do the words "God, Jesus, Christianity, Bible, Creator or Divine" appear...not once!






The 1796 Tripoli Treaty states quite clearly that the United States was "NOT in any sense founded on the Christian religion". This treaty was written under George Washington's presidency and signed under the presidency of John Adams.

"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law".

Thomas Jefferson letter to Dr. T. Cooper. Feb. 10th 1814.

Putting the words "under god" in the pledge is not abiding with that separation. IMO


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## Norah (Jun 22, 2012)

MajorClementine said:


> I think no matter what country you are in you can find fault with your own country and easily point fingers at other countries. America is what it is today because of people from other countries coming to find freedom from many things. The system isn't perfect. But I don't believe it has been corrupted by any one thing (religion for example) or one person. As people in general become more self serving and power hungry things will get worse.
> 
> It is horrible that someone would behead their daughter over anything. However, we can't forget that a father just recently blew up his two sons after "chopping" at them with a hatchet here in America. Horrible things happen every day in every country.
> 
> As far as the original post, I do believe in a separation of church and state. But I also believe this country was founded by God fearing men. Do I think everyone should believe in God? No. That is an individual choice. But it is just as wrong for them to be able to force the word "God" to be taken out of the pledge as it is for them to be punished for not believing in a God. I believe that we need to learn, practice, and teach tolerance and understanding for people, races, cultures and religions.


major clemintine WELL STATED !!!!!!! you have made a very good point , and have stared it well : ) thank you


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## MajorClementine (Jun 23, 2012)

I never said under one certain God. Why does it need to state a certain God? Does it say under a Christian God? No. Don't get distracted by the nit picky details. Also, my comment was only to make a point that no one's values should be forced on anyone else. I should be able to say God in the pledge just like others should be able not to say it. Why should I have to "add" it when I say the pledge when those who don't believe could just leave it out?

All I'm saying is people are too hung up on the differences between each other. No need to get offended. I'm sorry I used that example. Would the example of the petition to call a Christmas tree a "holiday tree" be better? Or the fact that a major airport was forced to take down their Christmas tree because it offended those who didn't celebrate? All I'm saying is we need to be less worried about the tiny details and more understanding of EVERYONE. Religious or not. As long as someone is a good honest person why get hung up on the other stuff?

Please also remember that religious freedom (including the freedom to not be religious) is the only reason this post is possible. If there was no separation of church and state then one could be punished by the government for stating opinions like we all have here.


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## ohmt (Jun 23, 2012)

Many religions do not call their God(s) by that name and to them it is not just a nit picky detail.

Say the pledge whenever and however you want, just don't force everyone else to follow. That was the problem with it before. All religions should be respected and forcing people of others to follow our own is not American at all and whoever says it is is badly mistaken. If you are truly a christian then how in the world does taking "under God" out of the pledge effect that at all? You are still free to practice your religion as you wish as long as it does not effect others and their practices. That is what America is about.

The Christmas tree ordeal was ridiculous as most people would agree so no, that is not a better example. At the same time, who cares what people call their trees.

On a side note-my grandfather taught me the pledge of allegiance and for my first year of school i struggled to remember the "under God" because he had never been taught that so i hadn't either.


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## ozymandias (Jun 23, 2012)

ohmt said:


> Many religions do not call their God(s) by that name and to them it is not just a nit picky detail.
> 
> Say the pledge whenever and however you want, just don't force everyone else to follow. That was the problem with it before. All religions should be respected and forcing people of others to follow our own is not American at all and whoever says it is is badly mistaken. If you are truly a christian then how in the world does taking "under God" out of the pledge effect that at all? You are still free to practice your religion as you wish as long as it does not effect others and their practices. That is what America is about.
> 
> ...


Brilliantly and well thought out reply ohmt


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## ozymandias (Jun 23, 2012)

MajorClementine said:


> to make a point that no one's values should be forced on anyone else.


Making everyone say "one nation under god" in the Pledge of Allegiance (because that's how it's now written) which is used in State functions IS forcing someone else's values onto others no if's and's or butt's about that. I use the word "values" with caution only because that's the word you used and I had to quote it. What it should read is "forcing someone else's religion" onto others. It's pretty obvious to all that the god the pledge is talking about is the God of the Christian bible...not Apollo or Baal or Ceres or Diana or Thor etc., etc. because it was added in to the pledge by Christians in a predominately a Christian nation.


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## ozymandias (Jun 23, 2012)

This is an easy way to view it...(IMO)

Your god, in this case the God of the Christian bible, is no more real to a Hindu than their monkey god Hanuman, is to you. Hanuman is no more real to an Australian Aboriginal than Hanuman is to you etc.etc. As someone who belives in education, facts, truth and science, your God is no more real to me than the belief that the earth is flat and sitting on top of a giant turtle (another religious belief).

People should have the right to worship any deity they choose to believe in ( or not ) but it shouldn't be forced upon us by the State...That's how our Founding Fathers saw it. Obviously they were way ahead of their time


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## MajorClementine (Jun 23, 2012)

I believe my point has been missed. Don't point fingers at other people, countries, or religions.


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## ozymandias (Jun 24, 2012)

MajorClementine said:


> I believe my point has been missed. Don't point fingers at other people, countries, or religions.


MC,

there was only one post in this thread where someone appeared to point fingers. I'm sorry you're point was not interpreted correctly...love for you to explain again






My point with the pledge was 100% in respect of peoples right to their own religious beliefs. I don't think it's right that a Buddhist, in saying the pledge of allegiance to the American Flag, should basically have to say "one nation, under the Christian God" which is how it's been changed to read. Same goes for those practicing Shintoism, Sikhism, Hinduism, Atheism, Confucianism, etc, etc.


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## MajorClementine (Jun 24, 2012)

I fully understand your point. It just seemed to be your only focus after reading my first post.

This thread was about keeping a separation of Church and State. Even with the word God in the pledge or on our currency does not force anyone to believe that way. Please don't take this as me saying everyone should be forced to say the pledge with the word God in it. If it makes you and others more comfortable to say it without then I support this. To each his own eh? People are not forced to worship any one God in America and we are free to have discussions such as this in a public forum. I don't think (at this time) we are in any danger of being forced to bow or conform to any one religion. I fully support church and state being separate. Religion should not rule a country. It has been proven that this ends in bloodshed among countrymen. But I also believe that greed should not run a country and I think we are in more danger of this right now.


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## ozymandias (Jun 24, 2012)

MC, thanks for taking the time to explain your point a little more





I think we're pretty much in agreement on most of the basic issues and I may have missed your actual message.

Like you have been saying...this American separation of church and state is what's allowing everyone to openly post without fear.


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## Jill (Jun 26, 2012)




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## ozymandias (Jun 26, 2012)

This is a bit off track for this thread but I just had to giggle pepsi bubbles at this article...

As you all prolly know, women in Saudi are not allowed to drive (can you imagine trying getting away with that here for one second !!!!) They're now claiming that it needs to stay that way because allowing women to drive would lead to having more sex, promoting pornography and create more homosexuals and "no more virgins"

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8930168/Allowing-women-drivers-in-Saudi-Arabia-will-be-end-of-virginity.html


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## ozymandias (Jun 26, 2012)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/middleeast/saudiarabia/8793145/Saudi-woman-to-be-lashed-for-driving-car.html


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## ozymandias (Jun 26, 2012)

They may be correct. I must admit that when I'm out driving in my street modded, 350hp, turbo driven WRX I'm tempted to stop at every stud muffin I pass and of course rob the odd bank on the way to the 7/11


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## tagalong (Jun 26, 2012)

> I must admit that when I'm out driving in my street modded, 350hp, turbo driven WRX I'm tempted to stop at every stud muffin I pass and of course rob the odd bank on the way to the 7/11


Don't we all?


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## MajorClementine (Jun 26, 2012)

ozymandias said:


> They may be correct. I must admit that when I'm out driving in my street modded, 350hp, turbo driven WRX I'm tempted to stop at every stud muffin I pass and of course rob the odd bank on the way to the 7/11


Guilty



Guess my license should be taken away...


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## ozymandias (Jun 26, 2012)

HAHA you two are doomed women lol


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