# mare has stillborn foals



## boomercd (Aug 1, 2011)

Anyone have any ideal why my mini mare has more still births than live births, they seem to be fully formed full term but the membrane is thick and they dont get out this one this year was totally in tact, I sleep in the barn for a month, go to the house for coffee and com back to a dead foal, what am I doing wrong, I feed her only the best hay and for the last 6 months I supplement her with 2cups grain high quality, am I missing something?? she is utd on vacs and worming what else can I do??


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## LittleRibbie (Aug 1, 2011)

I just wanted to let you know how sorry i am for your losses with your little mare. I will let the pros answer your question...it was a question I have asked but someone else can answer it better than me. But I will ask and maybe the pros can answer....a foal that does not get out of the sack...would that be considered still born? I know you were unable to save your foals but do you know if they were breathing at all when they were first born..perhaps suffocating in the sac?


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## breezy farm (Aug 1, 2011)

Has this mare been on pasture? I do know that one has to be careful about the endophyte fungus that is in most pastures. It can cause a thick sac and stillborn foals. I am so sorry for your losses. Karen


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## Minimor (Aug 1, 2011)

Is there fescue in her hay or pasture? Fescue, or the endophytes in it, can cause the thick membrane.

What does she get for a mineral supplement? If the grain ration consists of a pelleted feed, even if she gets the recommended amount I would not count on it providing all the necessary minerals. Some of the feeds to contain more minerals than others (more along the lines of a ration balancer) but many contain just certain basic vitamins and minerals--the trace minerals are not added. I firmly believe that minerals play a big part in determining the thickness of the sac.

As for the question asked about stillborn vs. not getting out of the sac, in my opinion a foal that dies in the sac does not count as stillborn. Stillborn means to me that the foal was already dead at time of birth. A foal that doesn't get out of the sac may very well be born alive and healthy, but when it cannot break out of the sac it drowns in the birth fluids. Of course there are those foals that don't break open the sac simply because they are already dead at time of birth.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Aug 2, 2011)

Are you talking about 1 mare?

If so, then an incompetent cervix or poor endometrium are likely.

Dr Taylor


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## JAX (Aug 2, 2011)

Sometimes "the best hay" is endophyte infected. Do you have any other mares on the same diet that are not having this problem? Did this mare make a nice BIG bag and lots of milk? Were you were able to express milk before or after the delivery? If you are not sure about the hay then maybe next time ask a breeding farm around you what they feed their broodmares. Some breeding farms do allow their broodmares to stay on and ingest endophyte infected hay but they take them off of it at least 30-60 days before their due date. There are also drugs your mare can be put on if this is the problem. Ask your vet, he/she should know. Also did your vet inspect the placenta and or foal? It could give them a good idea of what could be going on. Sorry to hear it no matter what the reason.


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## TammyS (Aug 2, 2011)

A friend of mine had a mare that was the same way. She carried to full term and produced a healthy live foal, but her foals always needed help out of the sack, infact one she had had to cut a spot in to open it. She was always fed the same hay as the other mares and produced plenty of milk. She just had to be sure to be there for every foaling. She found that a foaling alarm was of great help, along with the use of a barn cam..and now neither She nor I go without them. When the alarm is set off I just pop up check my camera, which is wireless and is sent to my tv. The hours of sleep I now save! I am so sorry for your mare, and you on the loss of your foal. Mares are just so dang sneaky!


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## Marty (Aug 2, 2011)

You have to be 100% possitive that you are buying fescue free hay and a lot of people will say it is when it is not. I have gone to great lengths to secure fescue free hay and its not that easy to do.

You also have to be sure your mare is not on pasture about 60-90 days before foaling or the sack will be very hard to break.

Also, you need to be there to help break the sack open. They always can't get out on their own and you have to help them get out. Do you know that when they are still in the sack they appear "dead"? Maybe this is what you are seeing? But soon as you get them out of there and start drying them off they will "wake up".

There are a lot of websites you can read up on and see pictures that will help you if you do a google search. I'm so sorry for your losses.


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## Eagle (Aug 2, 2011)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> Are you talking about 1 mare?
> 
> If so, then an incompetent cervix or poor endometrium are likely.
> 
> Dr Taylor


Could you explain please, Thank you Dr Taylor


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## AnnaC (Aug 2, 2011)

Firstly let me say how sorry I am that this keeps happening to you and your little mare.

Secondly, you say that this happens when you are not there. Do you know that the foal was actually dead at birth, or has it died because it couldn't break free from the bag? Were you there for any 'successful' births and were those foals ok? Also, it has been said that a lot of mini foals are 'smaller' in their bags than 'big' foals, and therefore find it more difficult to break the bag in their initial 'struggle' to get free - their legs and heads are not up against a 'tight' fitting bag. So, if this fact has any truthfulness, this could be the reason why your foals are failing to break through, not the fact that the bag itself is over thick? We lost a foal this year for just this reason - born early and unexpectedly out in the field, it failed to break the bag - the bag was not thick, but was plenty 'big' enough for the foal to move in without stretching it to 'breaking point. This was not a stillboen foal.

Marty, for once I have to disagree with your statement regarding removing mares from pasture before foaling. I know you are referring to the need to keep mares safe from the possibility of fescue problems, but as a general statement it could be misleading. Mares need grass (preferably good grass) - in my opinion - right up to and after foaling. My girls stuff themselves all year round on our grass and get fed a lib hay and a balancer when in at nights up to foaling and after, plus vitamin and mineral licks in the fields and stables. But I do appreciate what you are saying.

To the original poster, sorry but I have no knowledge of possible 'medical' reasons why your mare is having this problem, and would be grateful for Dr. Taylor's explanation too.

Wishing you good luck with future foalings, if your vet confirms that there is no medical reason not to try again.


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## REO (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm sorry that has happened



I know how heartbreaking it is!

You HAVE to be there to break the sac! The foals are alive but drown.

If you can get an Equipage system, you can be sure and be there. Or there are cheaper halter alarms/baby monitors.

I know you've been doing your best to be there! But she's sneaky. Foaling happens very fast. When a foal's brisket clears the cervix, their legs should have broken the sac for the head and neck, which are outside. When the brisket clears, it signals the lungs to expand and the foal to start breathing. THAT FAST! So if they are in the sac, they drown in a matter of only a minute. It is heartbreaking!!

If you can get one of those alarm type systems, that would be great since her sacs are so think.

Good luck! And welcome to the forum!


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## drmatthewtaylor (Aug 2, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Could you explain please, Thank you Dr Taylor


Mares have a cervix that doesn't close as tightly as other species, if the cervix was damaged during a dystocia (which is quite common and unavoidable) then it can become incompetent (doesn't close tightly enough) during gestation and it will usually do so at almost exactly the same time. Thus leading to abortion.

Mares also don't have a placental attachment as strong as other species. Thus nutrients do not cross as readily. It takes nearly 100% of a mares uterine lining to keep a foal alive (which is why twins don't usually survive). Some mares have such a poor uterus that even 100% isn't enough to keep a foal alive, thus the foal aborts, again frequently near the same time.

Dr Taylor


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## targetsmom (Aug 2, 2011)

First of all, I am really sorry to hear about your losses. I can really relate so i known the pain and frustration. i am also learning from this thread. One thing I didn't see mentioned was Rhino. Although more well known for causing late term abortions, a mare with Rhino can carry to term and foal just like you described, and will deliver the placenta along with the foal. Rhino (Pneumabort) shots at 5, 7 and 9 months of gestation can help prevent this.


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## boomercd (Aug 2, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Could you explain please, Thank you Dr Taylor


_ dont know if the foal was alive at birth however_ did get it out of the sack and dry it off but it was cold the placenta was cold, how long do_ have to attempt to recesatate? also I had another fooal found dead this year in the creek I dont know it it was in or out of sac when it was born, the mare had been kicking it when I got to it do you think they both had the same problem?_


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## boomercd (Aug 2, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Could you explain please, Thank you Dr Taylor



Sorry Im not sure how to get my reply to post, Ill try again. I have 2 mini mares, both had dead foals this year, the other one was born early and it was found in the creek, I dont know if it had the same problem because the mare had been trying to get it up, the sack was open....a very sad picture. Im at wits end with these mare Im glad I found this site to help, I cant take another loss. they cant either, how long do I have to resesatate?, this one could not have been long I tried to dry it off but it was cold and the placenta was cold. I got no responce. Im heart broken I was not raised on a farm Im a city girl. I tried to do everything by the book they have salt and mineral blocks in all three pastures and I move them around often try to by the best hay and feed, but I cant do this. please help


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## drmatthewtaylor (Aug 2, 2011)

boomercd said:


> Sorry Im not sure how to get my reply to post, Ill try again. I have 2 mini mares, both had dead foals this year, the other one was born early and it was found in the creek, I dont know if it had the same problem because the mare had been trying to get it up, the sack was open....a very sad picture. Im at wits end with these mare Im glad I found this site to help, I cant take another loss. they cant either, how long do I have to resesatate?, this one could not have been long I tried to dry it off but it was cold and the placenta was cold. I got no responce. Im heart broken I was not raised on a farm Im a city girl. I tried to do everything by the book they have salt and mineral blocks in all three pastures and I move them around often try to by the best hay and feed, but I cant do this. please help



Not impossible, but unlikely that both mares have cervical/uterine problems.

I would encourage you to go over this with your Vet, I would also encourage you to have every fetus/placenta examined by a pathologist. I know it is an expense, but having dead foals is an expense also.

Dr Taylor


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## StarRidgeAcres (Aug 2, 2011)

I'm sorry you've had this experience. I now also understand this is new to you and you are trying.

My personal thoughts are, assuming the mares are fine (which may NOT be the case), you need to change your routine if and when you decide to try to breed ANY mares again. My suggestions are: keep track of breeding dates so you can better predict when the mares are close to foaling. When they are within 30 days, bring them out of the pasture and have them in some type of closely monitored lot during the day and stalled at night. Begin to check, and document, the condition of their bags DAILY. Watch for changes in fullness, and hardness. Also watch their tailheads for a softening of the muscles. Try to express milk and test it often. Be persistent about getting the milk. I've heard so many people (friends of mine) say "I just can't get any milk" and so I go over to the barn and show them it's not like you just give a tiny squeeze and when nothing comes out, you give up. The closer it gets, the more likely it is you will get at least something. And you only need a drop or two to test. If you do not know how to express milk, have your vet show you. Purchase the Mother Nature's Foaling Predictor Kits for testing the milk. I've NEVER had this kit let me down, assuming I could get milk and assuming I followed the instructions. Buy either cameras or at least halter buzzers and a baby monitor so you know when the mare is laying down in the foaling position. If you have mares that have a tradition of foals not getting out of the sack, you NEED to be present and break open the sac yourself. You only have a minute or two AT MOST to get a baby out of the sac or it will die. Trust me, if you find it cold to the touch, it is too late to help revive the foal.

My personal opinion (I'm NOT a vet) from your descriptions is that your mares are foaling live babies but they are dying due to suffocating in the sac. It's heartbreaking I know and it's happened to just about everyone who breeds. What matters is that you learn and the future foals don't succomb to the same thing.

Where are you located? There will surely be someone here on the board who is near you and would gladly be your mentor!





Again, I'm sorry for your loses. It's heartbreaking for you and the mares.


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## targetsmom (Aug 2, 2011)

OK, I am NOT a vet - but this sounds like Rhino to me, if both mares lost their foals. This happened to us our first year - one aborted at 9 months and the other carried to term and delivered just like your mare. I know everyone says you have to be there when they foal (and you do), but with Rhino there really isn't much you can do except vaccinate first. The next year we did the Rhino shots at 5, 7, and 9 months and got our first live foal. But we are STILL having issues and may give up at any time. Breeding minis can be heart wrenching - and very expensive too.

Our experience having the foals and/or the placenta examined has not been too useful but we DID learn that in our area a necropsy (animal autopsy) at our state university is cheaper than paying someone to bury the body.


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## Eagle (Aug 2, 2011)

I have had problems with rhino too but what i was told was that the mares have to have rhino during pregnancy for it to harm the foal. It is quite obvious as the mares get sick and have very runny noses. If the mares are positive carriers it doesn't mean the foals will die even if they are not vaccinated during pregnancy.

My rhino positive mare has a very thick sac and her foals have never been able to break out alone even though she receives her 5,7 & 9 months vacc.

I am sorry for your loss and I know how hard it is but as Star Ridge has said it is very important that you monitor any future pregnancies and you must be there at the time of birth.

Renee


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## HGFarm (Aug 2, 2011)

I have only had a couple of sacks that were so thick I could BARELY break them, the foals would never have gotten out on their own. (they were alive, just had too thick a sack)Being in attendance at birth for this reason is crucial- and in case of a bad dystocia. Mares can prolong labor and if they feel 'bothered', she may be waiting until you leave to foal. Just like drowning, it only takes moments to lose one.

Does the foal & placenta look normal? How about the mare? Any signs of illness a few days before aborting? You can have the foal, etc... examined by your vet if you suspect rhino so you would know either way.

It sounds to me, if she is carrying to her due date and then foaling when you leave her alone, that it may just be someone has to be there to get the foal out....

You might think about investing in a camera and/or breeder alert of some type to keep an eye on her from afar, but be able to intervene as soon as she goes into labor?

I am so sorry for your losses and certainly understand your frustration... do you have a good horse vet that you could ask some questions of? As has been said by many- Breeding Minis is not for the faint of heart. It always seems to be something....


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2011)

boomercd said:


> Anyone have any ideal why my mini mare has more still births than live births, they seem to be fully formed full term but the membrane is thick and they dont get out this one this year was totally in tact, I sleep in the barn for a month, go to the house for coffee and com back to a dead foal, what am I doing wrong, I feed her only the best hay and for the last 6 months I supplement her with 2cups grain high quality, am I missing something?? she is utd on vacs and worming what else can I do??


Are you talking about the placenta being 'thick' or the whitish amniotic sac? Scroll down this page and you can see the difference at foaling of photos of the placenta vs amniotic sac.

When you say more still births than live? How many are you talking about?

Is it the same stallion/mare combo?

Is it around the same time in gestation that she's lost the foal(s)?

What does your vet say? Did he/she exam the mare, foal, placenta, sac?

There really isn't enough information to guess as to why.


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