# Fox News -- Fair & Balanced



## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

On several threads, we've talked about biased media and that many of us feel Fox News does a good job of presenting both sides. This morning is a stellar example of just that fact. They are discussing Obama's relationship with former terrorist, Bill Ayers, and have Obama's people and McCain's giving their versions of the depth and meaning behind the relationship. Truly giving equal time to both sides. Viewers have the opportunity to hear what's being said and the contributors are clearly identified as to who they are and where their allegiances lie. I love it!

The fact that I'm shaking my head a bunch at what's being said speaks to the fact that they ARE telling both sides


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## McBunz (Oct 6, 2008)

If Fox were truly fair and equal why are they even wasting air time on such drivel..


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Oh my


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 6, 2008)

I can't believe you think its "drivel" for any news media to provide information intended to educate voters so they can make an informed decision on who to vote for. What would you rather see Bugs Bunny, The Waltons or..........


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## Sonya (Oct 6, 2008)

I personal don't think an association of a candidate with a domestic terrorist would be considered drivel.


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## McBunz (Oct 6, 2008)

I would rather see facts presented on both sides... Do you happen to know the history of every person

sitting in you church with you.. Could be a murderer sitting next to you.. How about

all the people you have worked with over the years.. Does that mean you are

associated with murderers..rapists, thieves.. This goes for both sides of this debate... Look at the crap about McCain

and maffia ties.. Palin and her corruption inquiry.. All national inquirer stuff.... not facts..


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## littlestep (Oct 6, 2008)

McBunz said:


> I would rather see facts presented on both sides... Do you happen to know the history of every personsitting in you church with you.. Could be a murderer sitting next to you.. How about
> 
> all the people you have worked with over the years.. Does that mean you are
> 
> ...


You kidding of cause..


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 6, 2008)

Got this email this morning. I know it won't make some people happy because they don't want to be bothered with facts.

"I believe almost everyone is aquainted with the writings of Rich

Carroll. If not you can look him up on the internet. His books and

articles are too numerous to mention. He is noted for his extensive

research before he ever sits down to write an article. Please read and

consider your options when you go to the polls in November.

The Jihad Candidate

by Rich Carroll

Conspiracy theories make for interesting novels when the storyline is

not so absurd that it can grasp our attention. 'The Manchurian

Candidate' and 'Seven Days in May' are examples of plausible chains of

events that captures the reader's imagination at best-seller level.

'What if' has always been the solid grist of fiction.

Get yourself something cool to drink, find a relaxing position, but

before you continue, visualize the television photos of two jet

airliners smashing into the Twin Towers in lower Manhattan and remind

yourself this cowardly act of Muslim terror was planned for eight

years.

How long did it take Islam and their oil money to find a candidate for

President of the United States ? As long as it took them to place a

Senator from Illinois and Minnesota ? The same amount of time to create

a large Muslim enclave in Detroit ? The time it too k them to build

over 2,000 mosques in America ? The same amount of time required to

place radical wahabbist clerics in our military and prisons as

'chaplains'?

Find a candidate who can get away with lying about their father being a

'freedom fighter' when he was actually part of the most corrupt and

violent government in Kenya 's history. Find a candidate with close

ties to The Nation of Islam and the violent Muslim overthrow in Africa

, a candidate who is educated among white infidel Americans but hides

his bitterness and anger behind a superficial toothy smile. Find a

candidate who changes his American name of Barry to the Muslim name of

Barak Hussein Obama, and dares anyone to question his true ties under

the banner of 'racism'. Nurture this candidate in an atmosphere of

anti-white American teaching and surround him with Islamic teachers.

Provide him with a bitter, racist, anti-white, anti-American wife, and

supply him with Muslim middle east connections and Islamic monies.

Allow him to be clever enough to get away with his anti-white rhetoric

and proclaim he will give $834 billion taxpayer dollars to the Muslim

controlled United Nations for use in Africa ..

Install your candidate in an atmosphere of deception because

questioning him on any issue involving Africa or Islam would be seen as

'bigoted racism'; two words too powerful to allow the citizenry to be

informed of facts. Allow your candidate to employ several black racist

Nation of Islam Louis Farrakhan followers as members of his Illinois

Senatorial and campaign staffs.

Where is the bloodhound American 'free press' who doggedly overturned

every stone in the Watergate case? Where are our nation's reporters

that have placed every Presidential candidate under the microscope of

detailed scrutiny; the same press who pursue Bush's 'Skull and Bones'

club or ran other candidates off with persistent detective and research

work? Why haven't 'newsmen' pursued the 65 blatant lies told by this

candidate during the Presidential primaries? Where are the stories

about this candidate's cousin and the Muslim butchery in Africa ? Since

when did our national press corps become weak, timid, and silent? Why

haven't they regaled us with the long list of socialists and communists

who have surrounded this 'out of nowhere' Democrat candidate or that

his church re-printed the Hamas Manifesto in their bulletin, and that

his 'close pastor friend and mentor' met with Middle East terrorist

Moammar Gaddafi, (Guide of the First of September Great Revolution of

the Socialist People's Libyan Arab Jamahiriya)? Why isn't the American

press telling us this candidate is supported by every Muslim

organization in the world?

As an ultimate slap in the face, be blatant in the fact your candidate

has ZERO interest in traditional American values and has the most

liberal voting record in U.S. Senate history. Why has the American main

stream media clammed-up on any negative reporting on Barak Hussein

Obama? Why will they print Hillary Rodham Clinton's name but never

write his middle name? Is it not his name? Why, suddenly, is ANY

information about this candidate not coming from main stream media, but

from the blogosphere by citizens seeking facts and the truth? Why isn't

our media connecting the dots with Islam? Why do they focus on 'those

bad American soldiers' while Islam slaughters non Muslims daily in 44

countries around the globe? Why does our media refer to Darfur as

'ethnic cleansing' instead of what it really is; Muslims killing non

Muslims! There is enough strange, anti- American activity surrounding

Barak Hussein Obama to peek the curiosity of any reporter. WHERE IS OUR

INVESTIGATIVE MEDIA!?

A formal plan for targeting America was devised three years after the

Iranian revolution in 1982. The plan was summarized in a 1991

memorandum by Mohamed Akram, an operative of the global Muslim

Brotherhood. 'The process of settlement' of Muslims in America , Akram

explained, 'is a civilization jihad process.' This means that members

of the Brotherhood must understand that their work in 'America is a

kind of grand jihad in eliminating and destroying the Western

civilization from within and sabotaging its miserable house by their

hands and the hands of the believers so that it is eliminated and God's

religion is made victorious over all other religions.'

There is terrorism we can see, smell and fear, but there is a new kind

of terror invading The United States in the form of Sharia law and

finance. Condoning it is civilization suicide. Middle East Muslims are

coming to America in record numbers and building hate infidel mosques,

buying our corporations, suing us for our traditions, but they and the

whole subject Americans about who and what is really peaceful. Where is

our investigative press? Any criticism of Islam or their intentions,

even though Islamic leaders state their intentions daily around the

globe, brings-forth a20volley of 'racist' from the left-wing Democrat

crowd.

Lies and deception behind a master plan - the ingredients for 'The

Manchurian Candidate' or the placement of an anti-American President in

our nation's White House? Is it mere coincidence that an

anti-capitalist run for President at the same time Islamic sharia

finance and law is trying to make advancing strides into the United

States ? Is it mere coincidence this same candidate wants to dis-arm

our nuclear capability at a time when terrorist Muslim nations are

expanding their nuclear weapons capability? Is it mere coincidence this

candidate wants to reduce our military at a time of global jihad from

Muslim nations?

Change for America ?

What change?

To become another 'nation of Islam'? What the heck is wrong with the

people in this country that they would even think about voting for this

guy?? Are they ostriches with their heads in the sand?? "


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## OhHorsePee (Oct 6, 2008)

What do you guys think about Obama giving ACORN $800,000? I am really disgusted over how these registrations are going here in Ohio. I think every LEAGAL vote should count but things are getting out of hand up here, in my opinion.


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Well, since McBunz isn't a citizen of the USA, her opinion won't be counted on election day. I'd bet some of her opinions are based on the filters her "news" passes through through before she sees or reads it.

I personally think that who you maintain relationships with (Obama / former terrorist Bill Ayers), look up to as a spiritual mentor for two decades (Obama / the racist Rev. Jeremiah Wright), and who you work with (Obama / the guilty of voter fraud in many states, Acorn), does say a lot about your character and appropriateness to lead.


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## littlestep (Oct 6, 2008)

2. 20 years with his acknowledged mentor Rev. Wright's "God darn America" racist "church,

3. Lying on his Illinois Bar Application caused him to have to surrender his law license to stop further investigation,

4. In his book, he admits habitual marijuana and cocaine use, an addictive personality, violating US narcotics laws,

5. Numerous reports of gay boyfriends in Chicago, Larry Sinclair, and "sealed" testimony regarding his relationship to persons involved in the murder of a black gay man in Chicago,

6. Personal financial dealings with felon Tony Rezko, convicted of money laundering,

7. $60,000 campaign contributions and support from socialist George Soros and family,

8. $$ Hundreds of thousands in campaign contributions from Franklin Raines's Fannie Mae, while the organization was violating accounting rules,

9. Funnelling $$ thousands to corrupt ACORN housing organization prosecuted for voter fraud,

10. Refusal to turn over a vault copy of his birth certificate to Philadelphia Court, to hide the facts about his citizenship,

11. Supported infanticide by voting 3 times in Illinois legislature to deny liquids or medical attention to living babies after botched abortions (one of the few times he didn't just vote "present"),

12. Political and board affiliations with unrepentant terrorist bomber William Ayers, and

Whatever other "secrets" he has managed to hide from the American people with the complicity of the media elite.

OBAMA IS AN AMORAL AND DISHONEST OPPORTUNIST. HE CANNOT BE TRUSTED!

Connect the dots...


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Mary Lou --

I maintain that I find Fox News to present both sides. I get to hear PLENTY that I don't agree with from the other side, so I know they present both sides





Of course, it's not my only source of news, but I do feel it's the best.

And I don't find this new line of campaigning a new low. The things McCain's camp is addressing recently and this week have been at or near the top of my list of concerns for months now. All along, I have felt they should have hit on Ayers, Wright and Acorn hard. Happy they are doing it now, but I wish they'd have started it earlier.

Jill


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 6, 2008)

Has anyone else heard this from the 3 bigger networks? I only hear about it from here and too me this forum is pro Republican.

Can't wait for this election to be overwith. Its annoying too see these attack posts.


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

All morning, I've been hearing people who are Obama's paid advisors and helpers attempting to explain his shady connections. I haven't heard them say the relationships didn't exist... which is what they'd say if it was made up, right? No, too many sources report his connections to Ayers, Wright and Acorn. It's reality. Something also I don't think can be justified but that's an opinion. That the connections are real is a fact.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 6, 2008)

Are you getting your resources from CBS, NBC, ABC? Where?? Just Fox?


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## OhHorsePee (Oct 6, 2008)

Would you believe Forbes? FORBES LINK

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PR Newswire - Press Release

RNC: Obama & Acorn Fact Sheet

10.04.08, 1:18 PM ET

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WASHINGTON, Oct. 4 /PRNewswire-USNewswire/ --

Obama campaign tries to downplay 'supposed' connections between their candidate and ACORN:

"Barack Obama Never Organized With ACORN" (Barack Obama For President Website, http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor, Accessed 10/4/08)

"[L]ies About His Supposed Connection To ACORN." (Barack Obama For President Website, http://fightthesmears.com/articles/20/acornrumor, Accessed 10/4/08)

(Logo: http://www.newscom.com/cgi-bin/prnh/20080519/RNCLOGO ) THE ACORN/OBAMA RECORD Obama Formerly Represented ACORN, Taught Classes For Future Leaders Of ACORN, And They Endorsed His 2008 Presidential Campaign:

Obama Directed Project Vote And Later Taught Classes For "Future Leaders Identified By ACORN And The Centers For New Horizons." "He [Obama] says he is drawn to politics, despite its superficialities, as a means to advance his real passion and calling: community organization. ... In 1992 Obama took time off to direct Project Vote, the most successful grass-roots voter- registration campaign in recent city history. Credited with helping elect Carol Moseley-Braun to the U.S. Senate, the registration drive, aimed primarily at African-Americans, added an estimated 125,000 voters to the voter rolls -- even more than were registered during Harold Washington's mayoral campaigns. 'It's a power thing,' said the brochures and radio commercials. ... Obama continues his organizing work largely through classes for future leaders identified by ACORN and the Centers for New Horizons on the south side." (Hank De Zutter, Op-Ed, "What Makes Obama Run?" ChicagoReader, 12/8/95)

Obama Was Part Of Team Of Lawyers Who Represented ACORN In A Suit Against The State Of Illinois. "Obama was part of a team of attorneys who represented the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) in a lawsuit against the state of Illinois in 1995 for failing to implement a federal law designed to make it easier for the poor and others to register as voters." (Mike Robinson, "Obama Got Start In Civil Rights Practice," The Associated Press, 2/20/07)

ACORN's Political Action Committee Endorsed Obama. "[A]CORN's political action committee endorsed Barack Obama for President. ... The endorsement reflects a belief that Obama -- who worked as a community organizer on the South Side of Chicago -- understands that change must come from the ground-up, as part of a working coalition, rather than from position papers." (Katrina Vanden Heuvel, Op-Ed, "ACORN: Obama Gets It," The Nation, 2/23/08)

Obama's Campaign Paid Over $800,000 To ACORN For Get-Out-The-Vote Efforts, But "Mistakenly Misrepresented" Their Work To The FEC:

Obama's Campaign "Paid More Than $800,000" To ACORN For Get-Out-The Vote Efforts; The Campaign Originally "Misrepresented" The Group's Work To The FEC. "U.S. Sen. Barack Obama's presidential campaign paid more than $800,000 to an offshoot of the liberal Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now for services the Democrat's campaign says it mistakenly misrepresented in federal reports. An Obama spokesman said Federal Election Commission reports would be amended to show Citizens Services Inc. -- a subsidiary of ACORN -- worked in 'get-out-the-vote' projects, instead of activities such as polling, advance work and staging major events as stated in FEC finance reports filed during the primary." (David M. Brown, "Obama To Amend Report On $800,000 In Spending," Pittsburgh Tribune Review, 8/22/08)

While Serving On The Board Of Directors Of The Woods Fund, ACORN Received Thousands Of Dollars Of Grants From The Organization:

The Chicago ACORN Received Grants Of $45,000 (2000), $30,000 (2001), $45,000 (2001), $30,000 (2002), And $40,000 (2002) From The Woods Fund. (Donors Forum Website, ifs.donorsforum.org, Accessed 6/10/08)

-- NOTE: From 1993 To 2002, Barack Obama Served On The Board Of Directors For The Woods Fund. (Tim Novak and Fran Spielman, "Obama Helped Ex-Boss Get $1 Mil. From Charity," Chicago Sun-Times, 11/29/07) WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO HIDE? James Terry, The Chief Public Advocate Of The Consumers Rights League, Testified About ACORN's Pattern Of Fraud Before The Joint Oversight Committee:

The Chief Public Advocate Of The Consumers Rights League, James Terry, Testified Today In Congress About How "ACORN's Pattern Of Fraud Can No Longer Be Dismissed As A Series Of Unfortunate Events." "James Terry, Chief Public Advocate for the Consumers Rights League, today testified at a joint House Administration and House Judiciary Committee oversight hearing on 'Federal, State and Local Efforts to Prepare for the General 2008 Election,' where he highlighted 'corruption at every level of ACORN including embezzlement, cover- ups, misuse of taxpayer funds and voter fraud.' An excerpt of his testimony follows: James Terry, Chief Public Advocate, Consumers Rights League: 'ACORN routinely says it will clean up its act. Yet, given its decade-long history of voter fraud, embezzlement, and misuses of taxpayer funds, ACORN's pattern of fraud can no longer be dismissed as a series of 'unfortunate events.'" ("CRL Testimony On ACORN's Voter Fraud," The Wall Street Journal, 9/25/08)

-- Terry Stated "It Is Fair To Question How Many Fraudulent Registrations" Submitted By ACORN May "Lead To Fraudulent Votes," And Also Pointed Out That ACORN May Be "Willing To Undertake" Other Actions "To Influence The Election." James Terry: "Furthermore, as this mega organization with a decades long history of violating the law is turned to get out the vote efforts, we believe it is fair to question how many fraudulent registrations may lead to fraudulent votes or what other activities they are willing to undertake to influence the election." ("CRL Testimony On ACORN's Voter Fraud," The Wall Street Journal, 9/25/08) Some Of The Highlights Of ACORN Suspicious Activity In 2008: Many Voter Applications, Submitted By ACORN, Appear To Be Fraudulent And Are Being Withheld By Seminole County's Elections Supervisor Until They Are Proven Legitimate. "Local elections officials are looking into potential election fraud and some of the information is pointing to a Democratic-leaning voter's group. ACORN ... has been registering thousands of new voters for this year's election, but in Seminole County, some voter applications are being withheld until it's proven they're legitimate. ... Seminole County's elections supervisor is holding up dozens of voter registration applications because they appear to be fraudulent: wrong addresses, bad signatures and more. ... Many of the applications with suspect information were turned-in by the activist group ACORN." ("Elections Officials Look Into Voter Fraud," WESH Orlando, 9/23/08)

"ACORN Admits That They Had A Case Of Voter Fraud Happen This Week In Seminole County," Florida. "ACORN admits that they had a case of voter fraud happen this week in Seminole County, but say they have since fired that employee and the faulty registration has been thrown out." (Susie Hassan, "ACORN Blamed For Florida Voter Fraud," WZVN-HD ABC News, 9/25/08)

In Clark County, Nevada, ACORN Allegedly Submits 2,000 To 3,000 Fraudulent Applications Each Week. "ACORN, which stands for the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, claims to have collected 60,000 new voter registrations in Clark County since February. The group, which works to promote the interests of lower-income people, is aiming for 100,000 by Labor Day. ... The group has drawn accusations of voter fraud and criminal investigations in several states. Last year, authorities in Washington state brought felony charges against ACORN workers for filing false voter registrations. Some ACORN workers pleaded guilty and went to jail, while the organization paid $25,000 and agreed to have its registration efforts monitored in a settlement with Washington state authorities. [Clark County Registrar of Voters Larry] Lomax said while he supports the goal of getting more people registered to vote, he sees rampant fraud in the 2,000 to 3,000 registrations ACORN turns in every week." (Molly Ball, "New Voter Sign-Ups Up," Las Vegas Review-Journal, 7/7/08)

Nevada State Officials Are Teaming With Federal Authorities To Investigate Voter Fraud, Particularly Applications Submitted By ACORN. "Nevada state and federal authorities on Thursday announced the formation of a task force that will aggressively pursue allegations of election fraud. The secretary of state, attorney general, U.S. attorney's office and Federal Bureau of Investigation plan to work together as the election approaches and on Election Day to ensure a free and fair election in Nevada, where record turnout is anticipated. 'This is part of an effort to work proactively,' Secretary of State Ross Miller, the state's chief elections official, said of the combined effort, which he said would 'ensure there is integrity in the system.' Miller said investigators are already looking into allegations of fraud in voter registration, though he declined to go into specifics of an investigation he suggested was being handled by the FBI. Clark County officials have said they suspect fraud is occurring in the thousands of voter registrations being submitted by the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now, or ACORN, which works to get low-income people to vote. ACORN, whose officials have faced fraud charges in other states, says the group's workers are trained to follow the law." (Molly Ball, "Election Fraud Task Force Formed," Las Vegas Review-Journal, 8/1/08)

In New Mexico, Dona Ana County Officials "Received Complaints About Misleading Voter Registration Activities." "The Dona Ana County Bureau of Elections has received complaints about misleading voter-registration activities and wants to make sure the public knows the truth about registering. Elections Supervisor Lynn Ellins said in a news release from the county that the 'most disturbing' complaint is from people who say they are being told they must re-register to vote under a new law passed by the state Legislature. 'This is simply not true,' Ellins said. 'Any voter who is registered and in good standing has no obligation to re-register.'" (Heath Haussamen, "Complaints In Dona Ana County," The New Mexico Independent, 6/11/08)

Dona Ana County Spokesman Jess Williams Said That ACORN Is Responsible For Many Of The Complaints About The Voter Re-Registration Scheme. "County spokesman Jess Williams said many of the complaints are about the Association of Community Organizations for Reform, more commonly known as ACORN. The group has been actively trying to register voters in Dona Ana County in recent months. It has also received national attention in recent years for allegations in other states of voter fraud and shoddy work ... " (Heath Haussamen, "Complaints In Dona Ana County," The New Mexico Independent, 6/11/08)

In New Mexico, 1,100 Fraudulent Voter-Registration Cards Were Reported And ACORN Acknowledges That Some May Have Come From Its Group. "Such is the situation for Bernalillo County, which reported, the day before Obama's Espanola rally, that it had received 1,100 fraudulent voter-registration cards. While there is no information, yet, on where those cards came from, Matthew Henderson, ACORN's New Mexico head organizer, acknowledges some could have come from his group. ACORN, he says, has registered 75,000 New Mexicans during this election cycle." (Mark Sanders, "Attempts To Rock The Vote, Rock The Boat," Santa Fe Reporter, 9/24/08)

Ninety Voter Registration Forms That Included Social Security Numbers And Dates Of Birth Were Stolen From ACORN's Las Cruces Office. "Ninety completed voter-registration applications that included Social Security numbers and dates of birth were stolen over the weekend from the Las Cruces office of an independent voter-registration group. As a result, ACORN plans to send letters to those whose applications were stolen to inform them of the situation." (Heath Haussamen, "Completed Voter-Registration Forms Stolen From Group," "Heath Haussamen On New Mexico Politics" Blog, haussamen.blogspot.com, 6/24/08)

In North Carolina, Durham County's Elections Director, Mike Ashe, Has Asked That Approximately 80 Voter Registration Forms Submitted by ACORN Be Investigated For Suspicions Of Fraud. "A Durham official is asking state elections administrators to check approximately 80 voter registration forms for possible fraud. ... Mike Ashe, Durham County's elections director, said the forms were among about 4,000 submitted to his office over the past four to six weeks by a national left-wing group called Acorn ... Ashe's staff also learned this week of irregularities with a handful of other registrations. It was not clear who was responsible for these problems. ... 'This is serious, obviously,' Ashe said." (Matthew E. Milliken, "Elections Chief Asks For Voter Fraud Probe," The Herald [NC] Sun, 9/19/08)

In Cuyahoga County, OH, ACORN Is Under Investigation By Election Officials Due To "Many Suspicious" Voter Registration Cards. "A national organization that conducts voter registration drives for low-income people has curtailed its push in Cuyahoga County after the Board of Elections accused its workers of submitting fraudulent registration cards. The board is investigating the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now. Results of the inquiry could be turned over to the county prosecutor. Board employees said ACORN workers often handed in the same name on a number of voter registration cards, but showing that person living at different addresses. Other times, cards had the same name listed, but a different date of birth. Still another sign of possible fraud showed a number of people living at an address that turned out to be a restaurant. ... Board employees are unsure how many of the cards are fraudulent. But the voter registration department received so many suspicious cards that it began compiling a binder with evidence. The binder grew to be an inch-thick." (Joe Guillen, "Cuyahoga Board Probes ACORN Voter Registration Drive," The [Cleveland, OH] Plain Dealer, 8/27/08)

-- "'I'm Obviously Very Concerned,' Board Chairman Jeff Hastings said. 'This Goes To The Essence Of Our Democracy.'"(Joe Guillen, "Cuyahoga Board Probes ACORN Voter Registration Drive," The [Cleveland, OH] Plain Dealer, 8/27/08) In Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, Election Officials Accused ACORN "Of Filing Fraudulent Voter Registrations" But The Group Blames The Post Office. "Philadelphia elections officials are accusing the nonprofit advocacy group 'Acorn' of filing fraudulent voter registrations in advance of the April 22nd Pennsylvania primary. Acorn, which advocates on behalf of low-income residents in the city, has mounted a voter registration drive in the past few months. But city election commissioners are complaining that many of the submitted registrations appear to be faulty, and they have forwarded the matter to the district attorney's office for further investigation. ... The city officials say many of the addresses listed on the registrations are invalid, but Acorn blames the post office for not adequately servicing low-income communities." (Mike Dunn, "Phila. Probing Advocacy Group's Voter Registrations," KYW Newsradio, www.kyw1060.com, 3/12/08)

One Pennsylvania ACORN Worker Is Facing "19 Counts Of Perjury, Making False Statements, Forgery And Identity Theft" Related To Voter Registration Forms. "A former temporary worker for a national community action group recently questioned by Dauphin County investigators about bogus voter registration forms is now a wanted man. Luis R. Torres-Serrano, 37, of the 200 block of South 15th Street, is accused by authorities of submitting more than 100 fraudulent voter registration forms he collected on behalf of the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now to county election officials. ... Torres-Serrano is charged with 19 counts of perjury, making false statements, forgery and identity theft in connection with the voter registration forms, authorities said." (Reggie Sheffield, "Former Temp Worker Accused Of Bogus Voter Registrations,"[Harrisburg, PA] Patriot News, 7/24/08)

Milwaukee Election Officials Launched An Investigation Against ACORN For "Making People Up Or Registering People That Were Still In Prison." "Criminal investigations could be launched against at least six voter registration workers who tried to add dead, imprisoned or imaginary people to the voter rolls, according to the Milwaukee Election Commission and the organization that employed them. Officials are reviewing some 200 to 300 fraudulent voter registration cards, Sue Edman, the commission's executive director, said Wednesday. ... In about 12 cases, deputy registrars paid by ACORN were 'making people up or registering people that were still in prison,' said Carolyn Castore, ACORN's state political director. And in other cases, workers used the same address for numerous voters or used driver's license numbers that did not fit the voters' birth dates, Edman said. But most of the fraud involved submitting duplicate cards for voters who were already registered, and forging the voters' signatures, Castore said." (Larry Sandler, "Fake Names Get Voter Registration Workers Investigated," Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 8/7/08)

All Voter Fraud Instances Under Investigation By Milwaukee Officials Are Linked To "Two Liberal Groups" - ACORN And The Community Voters Project. "Milwaukee's election chief on Wednesday turned 32 more voter registration workers in to the district attorney's office for possible prosecution, saying they tried to submit falsified registration cards. That brings to 39 the number of registration workers under scrutiny, and the number could grow, Election Commission Executive Director Sue Edman said. An organization warned the commission staff late Wednesday afternoon about some questionable cards in the latest batch collected by its workers, Edman said. All of the workers targeted for investigation were paid employees of two liberal groups running voter registration drives, the Association of Community Organizations for Reform Now (ACORN) and the Community Voters Project." (Larry Sandler, "More Voter Registration Workers Under Scrutiny," Milwaukee Journal Sentinel, 8/21/08)

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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Jamie --

Do you seriously doubt the connections exist



Or just have a different opinion of what they mean?

Regularly read / listened to major news sources for me:

Fox News

ABC News

Potus 08

The Wall Street Journal

The Washington Times

Local newspapers for Warrenton and Fredericksburg, VA

and

Various trade magazines for the financial services industry

Why do you ask? Do I come across as under-informed? I spend about 8 hours a day with news on while am home or while I work, while I commute, and time with newspapers... how about you?





Jill


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## McBunz (Oct 6, 2008)

http://www.snopes.com/politics/obama/obama.asp


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## Cathy_H (Oct 6, 2008)

> Got this email this morning. I know it won't make some people happy because they don't want to be bothered with facts.


................ We've got the front door locked a thousand different ways but we've left the back door wide open for this man & his terrorist supporters...................... America is being infiltrated slowly but surely. When reality slaps you in the face, it WILL BE TOO LATE! They will be in place and ready to dictate your every step.................. I do not totally agree with McCain either but with all the baggage that Obama has behind him WHY would anyone put themselves, their kids and grandkids freedom at stake?????????? Yes the status of the current economy is to be shared with the current president but the loss of money in the stock market does NOT compare to the loss of ones freedom! Far fetched - not in my opinion!


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## Bassett (Oct 6, 2008)

Jill, thank you so much for starting this. I wanted to but I knew where it would lead. We really get picked on by a certain few people who haven't a clue, refuse to even think about the other side.

Also Fran thank you so much for your input. I watched this last night and absolutely had goose bumps. This man scares me. I really feel our country WILL be destroyed from the inside out if he gets in there.

I don't think Sarah Palin is wrong at all in trying to get people to see the real Obama. I only wish more people listened to the facts. You don't have to listen to a news station. Get on the internet and do your own research. Read more newspapers (you can on the internet), magazines, talk to people and listen to what they have to say. Start out without being opinionated.

Now they are going to start on the Keating 5. John McCain has said he thinks it was the biggest mistake of his life. He admitted it. Something Obama can not do on anything. He simply cannot admit he was wrong on anything. So if Obama was only 8 years old when Ayers did his dirty work why did Obama have anything to do with him once he was old enough to know better. He wanted to associate with him because he feels the same way. All these people that he says he has nothing to do with actually, it appears, live within blocks of him in the same neighborhood. There is a connection, it is not coincidental.

I know, I know some of you will think what a lot of hog wash. But this man scares me. A LOT.


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> If you really want to be informed, read this - http://fightthesmears.com/


Oh, now there's something that's not biased




It says in huge letters "Join the OBAMA ACTION WIRE" and has a quote from Obama at the very top, and only attemps to explain away shady things that pertain to Obama -- that doesn't mean it's not a good source of unbiased "information"


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## McBunz (Oct 6, 2008)

So you don't think I am being one sided about politics..

http://www.snopes.com/politics/mccain/mccain.asp

http://www.snopes.com/politics/palin/palin.asp

Bidin can't be to exciting ... he didn't even make it onto Snopes...


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## Pepipony (Oct 6, 2008)

Giving time for both sides to speak, and having fair and balanced reporters , are 2 entirely different things. FOX is biased, no doubt about it. Even national polls on who 'you' trust for news has them placed lower than other big networks. CNN was again, voted the best news source. From what I have seen, they have biased reporters as well, but they have a mix and they do show both sides.


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Care to share your sources, Pep? Let me guess... you got it straight from CNN!!!





With as many pro-Democrat statements as I've heard on FOX and as few pro-Republican statements I've heard on CNN (one of the worst!), I think it's easy to see where you can hear about more than one side of things.


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## bingo (Oct 6, 2008)

All morning I have heard that if the election was today Obama would win. McCain's own camp could only respond this morning on GMA with your correct at least the election is not today.

Seems like nerves are setting in and it is time to do and say whatever they can- desperation is apparent and does not bring out the best in those down home maverick folks.


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 6, 2008)

> many of us feel Fox News does a good job of presenting both sides.

















You've got to kidding

Oh you must mean all Republicans feel that Fox News does a good job of presenting both sides.


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## Ashley (Oct 6, 2008)

A persons friends do not make the person who he/or she is.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 6, 2008)

Ashley said:


> A persons friends do not make the person who he/or she is.


First off I do disagree with this statement..show me your friends and I tell you who you are..

Second..how about business partners? If you send hundreds of thousend of dollars to a special business..does that mean you support it??


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Lisa -- I think the McCain camp should have been hitting these issues about Obama hard long ago. This "maverick" supporter hopes to see some heavy hitting tomorrow night. It's over due.

Ashley -- No a person isn't the same as their friends, but when you choose a friend who is a former terrorist (Bill Ayers), choose as a spiritual and moral leader (for 2 decades) someone who is a hate spouting anti-American racist (Rev. Jeremiah Wright), and to work for an organization found guilty of voter fraud in several states (Acorn)... you know, I do think it speaks to your character and your morals. We do not associate closely with people who have radically different values than we do, and we sure don't pick them as our moral leader...


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## Ashley (Oct 6, 2008)

> I personally think that who you maintain relationships with (Obama / former terrorist Bill Ayers), look up to as a spiritual mentor for two decades (Obama / the racist Rev. Jeremiah Wright), and who you work with (Obama / the guilty of voter fraud in many states, Acorn), does say a lot about your character and appropriateness to lead.


So because I have friends/family that are drug addicts, been in and out of prision(one for attempted murder) that automatically makes me just like them????

PLEASE


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 6, 2008)

> The fact that I'm shaking my head a bunch at what's being said speaks to the fact that they ARE telling both sides








Ashley, the next thing we will hear about that is "be very very scared" lol. Their logic is beyong me. Funny how McCain has some skeletons around too, much worse but nobody talks about those. The pitbull analogy used by Palin is a good one for many that republicans in here, they just don't know how to let go of things - most time not even factual but just trying to grasp at whatever they can.





When I think of Fox news I think of "Geraldo"


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Is that what I said, Ashley (give me a big PLEASE). I can think of ways where what you have outlined can be explained by specific circumstances.

Or maybe you said it for shock value? But it doesn't, and doesn't hold a candle to what is true of Obama's relationships.

I do not find friendship with a person guilty of terrorism against the USA, sitting in a pew for two decades listening to anti-American racism, nor cooperation with a group guilty of repeated voter fraud explainable. I sincerely do not.

Lipstick on a pig? Ha! Let's talk about fleas on a dog!!!


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## Bassett (Oct 6, 2008)

> So because I have friends/family that are drug addicts, been in and out of prision(one for attempted murder) that automatically makes me just like them????


You do? If you have friends like this and YOU were running for President of the United States, you bet you would be scrutinized for who you fraternize with. But you know Obama has had more to do with these people "his friends" than a few drugs, who know about murder. He is on a much higher level than you are talking about.


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## Ashley (Oct 6, 2008)

but he is still human. I think people tend for get this when it comes to many higher up people or well known people.


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Ashley, we are ALL human. Hitler was human, too. Does that mean he was a good leader? And, no... I'm not saying Obama has a lot in common with Hitler, but that there's a reason we should hold the potential leader of the greatest Nation on earth to a higher standard than we hold every day people who are not running for political office. Obama's shady relationships are only one reason I will not be casting a vote in his direction.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 6, 2008)

Well what is a "friend" if you meet somebody ..there is only a limited time you can talk about the weather..

I guess you need common intrests..

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

friend (frnd)

n.

1. A person whom one knows, likes, and trusts.

2. A person whom one knows; an acquaintance.

3. A person with whom one is allied in a struggle or cause; a comrade.

4. One who supports, sympathizes with, or patronizes a group, cause, or movement: friends of the clean air movement.

5. Friend A member of the Society of Friends; a Quaker.

tr.v. friend·ed, friend·ing, friends Archaic

To befriend.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 6, 2008)

I (and I don't think any of you) know the extent of McCain's association (if it existed) with the Mafia. I agree that it's not good if there was one! BUT I've never heard anything about the mafia wanting to destroy the USA. Have you?

For those of you espousing the comparison it's just another attempt to divert attention by attacking the other side. Both campaigns are doing it so I guess it shouldn't be a surprise that people here are doing it too. That kind of argument still doesn't explain or justify their actions/associations. Just because the person sitting next to me in church steals from the collection plate doesn't mean it's ok for me to do it too.

As far as questionable friendships are concerned I remember quite well my parents telling me that I would be judged by who my friends are. I'd be surprised if your parents didn't tell you the same thing.

I would sincerely appreciate it if you Obama supporters would honestly tell me how you can accept the fact that for 20 years he chose to listen to the bigotry and racial hate that his spiritual mentor preached. I know that when someone says something that I disagree with I don't return to listen to him every week for 20 years.

Since we are all aware of the economic crisis that faces us right now why would you consider voting for someone who's going to raise taxes rather than someone who says he's going to reduce government spending???? It's time to put personal likes and dislikes aside and start thinking about what the future holds.


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## tagalong (Oct 6, 2008)

If *McCain's* past associations were delved into as deeply as Obama's.... with the same vehemence that some show... you might be "suspect" of him as well.

I hate all this wasting time - yes, WASTING time - on who was associated with who in the past and then trying to twist who that person is today into some follower or caricature of that associate. Most public figures have "ties" if you look hard enough. Obama disavowed Rev. Wright. Fine - let's move forward...

That email essay quoted earlier? I loathe fearmongering of that sort. Many of the author's points have been disproved time and time again - but no matter. He wrote them - they must be true!!

So let's see... Ayers broke the law when Obama was a kid. He got out of trouble due to legal technicalities. They worked together decades later. Which obviously means they are in cahoots to bring down the country. NOT. Fine - move on...

McCain got careless, greedy and sloppy... and got caught up in the Keating 5... it's over and done - move on.



> I know that when someone says something that I disagree with I don't return to listen to him every week for 20 years.


He did not sit there and listen to the Rev. _every week for 20 years._ But whatever.

Some close members of my family are vehement about their beliefs and very OTT on a variety of issues that go against what I believe... I have known them all my life - does that mean I have the same beliefs or prejudices that they do? NO. People think for themselves - just because I am closely associated with those family members does NOT mean that I support their beliefs or think as they do. Yet - the way some are talking here - that would not be the case. According to some posters, I would not be able to think for myself or sperate myself fomr all that - and would simply reiterate the same stuff that those family members do...

Well, that would be *wrong*. Very wrong.

I wish the media and campaigns would discuss REAL issues instead of circling around this old stuff like hyenas. The guilt by association thing gets shriller and more ridiculous and reeking of last minute desperation (from all sides) when all around us the economy is failing, there is a war going on... you know. REAL issues. The important stuff.

*Jill* referrred to the "filters" that *McBunz* might be seeing her news through... if she was pointing fingers at the Canadina networks that is pointless - as all of the US networks are carried on cable and satellite in Canada as well.

Fox News constantly assures us that they are fair and balanced... no other network makes any such claims. It's just advertising... Fair and balanced. _If they were there would be no need to constantly advertise it - the fact that they trumpet that should make you stand back and revealuate _ But like the writer of that essay, they count on you not to do that. Not to check facts. Not to be suspicious. Not to ask questions. Just to accept that what they say is true.

We could say the same thing about a lot of the media.

IMO it is important to have a wide range of sources to get your information from and weigh them against each other. That is fair and balanced. When you stick to one source only, you only see things through their filters and buy into their slogans and advertising. Is that a balanced view then? No. Is it a fair appraisal of all sources? No.

I feel sorry for the the next POTUS. They are going to have to spend the next 4 years cleaning up this gawdawful mess that we are in....


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## Pepipony (Oct 6, 2008)

Jill said:


> Care to share your sources, Pep? Let me guess... you got it straight from CNN!!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


No Jill, its was on FOX. OF course it would have bene on CNN, I doubt that another news channel would show a National Poll that ranks another station above themselves. Were you that into running a zinger by me that you didnt think that out?


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

Yeah, Pep, I guess you've figured out my motive





Thanks for letting me know the source of the information. If CNN reported they're the most unbiased, well, then it must be true


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## Southern_Heart (Oct 6, 2008)

I feel so sorry for our nation right now where citizens would actually consider voting for a man that supports terrorism. What has happened to the American people?


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## littlesteppers (Oct 6, 2008)

Southern_Heart said:


> I feel so sorry for our nation right now where citizens would actually consider voting for a man that supports terrorism. What has happened to the American people?


I am with you..I know americans are hurting and looking for a out..looking for hope and follow like sheep...bahhhh bahhh...


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## littlesteppers (Oct 6, 2008)

Well off topic..sorry..have you dealt lately with a company that lets you test their product ofor free and you just need to pay shipping..just give us your CC#?

How many people actually check their CC statement..and if they have small unauthorized charges just pay them cause its not worth the trouble? I think Americans forgot their roots..


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 6, 2008)

> He did not sit there and listen to the Rev. every week for 20 years. But whatever.


I'd kinda like to see your source of information on that statement, but obviously it doesn't exist. To say that generally a person goes to church on a weekly basis would mean once a week.....and you're right....he very well may not have gone EVERY week.....but so what???

Do you object to the term "honky", "jew", "dago", "wop", "whitey" or the N word (which I obviously can't use because it's not politically correct)??? If so how often do you spend time listening to people rant on any of those subjects?

I think it's also pretty obvious that having family members with opinions that differ from ours isn't exactly the same thing. When a family member gets overbearing you can just walk away.....Huh, guess you could just walk out of a church too.

Very well said Southern Heart!!


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## OhHorsePee (Oct 6, 2008)

I find this disturbing! Obama Youth Is this the next reich?


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 6, 2008)

> we should hold the potential leader of the greatest Nation on earth to a higher standard


Well then what the heck happened in the last 8 years!!!! If that was true you never would have elected Bush, twice for pete sakes and look at the mess not only the U.S. is in but now the rest of the world because of it.


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## Irish Hills Farm (Oct 6, 2008)

> OhHorsePee Posted Today, 02:49 PM I find this disturbing! Obama Youth Is this the next reich?




OMG that is hysterical. "Because of Obama I'm the next (insert job of choice)".

Shouldn't they be thanking Oprah? Man, is SHE gonna be steamed!


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## Danielle_E. (Oct 6, 2008)

OhHorsePee said:


> I find this disturbing! Obama Youth Is this the next reich?



Good lord. Now I know that those of you that are voicing your opposition so vehemently to the democratic candidate are truly



. From his color, to his supposed ties to terrorisms, etc. etc. and all kinds of ridiculous statements that you keep posting like verbal diahrea... I think I will tell my grandaughter we aren't going to vacation in the U.S. Since she is of mixed decent I think we will go somewhere else so that a 6 year old doesn't have to hear this kind of bigotry, etc. I know there are many wonderful people in the U.S. but this has been a real eye opener because I thought there was much more tolerance, guess I was wrong.

Fox news is about as fair and balanced as the "rah rah sisterhood" is in here, which isn't saying much.

Enjoy your debates ladies.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 6, 2008)

Man, someone's giving Godwin's Law a real workout today! I doubt Obama has youth camps floating around, and I certainly see no evidence he's indoctrinating anyone. Where are these boys from, what program are they in?

And yes, it's a terrible shame that having a black (or half black) man so close to Presidency is at all inspiring to these young men. Shame.

Let me tell you something. Right now I'm LIVING with a man who was involved in the bombing, shooting, and death of countless people. He was part of a large group of men doing the exact same thing. These events happened a decade before I ever knew him, but still, I should be guilty by association.

That man is my dad, and he was a soldier during Vietnam. But following the logic that says Obama supports terrorism by working with Bill Ayers, I support the same sort of things by knowing my own father.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 6, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> Man, someone's giving Godwin's Law a real workout today! I doubt Obama has youth camps floating around, and I certainly see no evidence he's indoctrinating anyone. Where are these boys from, what program are they in?
> And yes, it's a terrible shame that having a black (or half black) man so close to Presidency is at all inspiring to these young men. Shame.
> 
> Let me tell you something. Right now I'm LIVING with a man who was involved in the bombing, shooting, and death of countless people. He was part of a large group of men doing the exact same thing. These events happened a decade before I ever knew him, but still, I should be guilty by association.
> ...


Are you telling me a soldier is the same than a terrorist??


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 6, 2008)

Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.


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## Cathy_H (Oct 6, 2008)

> Let me tell you something. Right now I'm LIVING with a man who was involved in the bombing, shooting, and death of countless people. He was part of a large group of men doing the exact same thing. These events happened a decade before I ever knew him, but still, I should be guilty by association.
> That man is my dad, and he was a soldier during Vietnam.


...................................................................................................... I am also living with a man that was involved with the above - my husband...................... Vietnam - ONE event - ONE place in time........ NOT THE SAME - Obama has TOO many roads leading to too many questionable events and people..... Anyone want to list them all again!


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## Bassett (Oct 6, 2008)

> From his color, to his supposed ties to terrorisms, etc. etc. and all kinds of ridiculous statements that you keep posting


WHY do YOU keep bringing his color up. I don't hear anyone else doing it.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 6, 2008)

People keep saying 'leads', 'questions', 'ties'. Never "Obama DID".

If anyone has ANY HARD PROVEN evidence of ANY terrorist activity Obama PERSONALLY took part in, please present it. I want a minimum of three separate nationally known sources and ideally some pictures, and will also require him to have been found guilty by a jury of his peers or have admitted to wrongdoing himself in lieu of a verdict.


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## Bassett (Oct 6, 2008)

> That man is my dad, and he was a soldier during Vietnam. But following the logic that says Obama supports terrorism by working with Bill Ayers, I support the same sort of things by knowing my own father.


BIG difference. Your Dad was defending our country. And he probably was proud to do it. (He was, wasn't he?) Ayers was trying to destroy it. There is no comparison at all.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 6, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> Yes, that is exactly what I'm saying.


Well I was surprised..But only for a minute


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 6, 2008)

The comparison still stands. By my association with my dad, do I support or condone the actions of the U.S. Army during Vietnam? Do I think it was a right and just war? I may, or I may not.

But by the logic people use connecting Ayers to Obama, then YES, I must.


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## Irish Hills Farm (Oct 6, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> > I find this disturbing! Obama Youth Is this the next reich?
> 
> 
> PLEASE….. What is wrong with young people having ambition of growing up with good, honest careers???


NOTHING. But don't say its because of OBAMA.... These opportunities have been around for ages.


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## OhHorsePee (Oct 6, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> The comparison still stands. By my association with my dad, do I support or condone the actions of the U.S. Army during Vietnam? Do I think it was a right and just war? I may, or I may not.
> But by the logic people use connecting Ayers to Obama, then YES, I must.


I see a big difference. But Lowrise, you aren't trying to hide your relationship.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 6, 2008)

Lowrise I'm sure your dad would be overjoyed to know how very much you appreciate the sacrifices he and his fellow service members made during the war. I can't even begin to imagine that anyone with even a hint of compassion (not to mention parental love and respect) would compare their own father to a terrorist. For Shame!!!

This thread has gone from bad to ridiculous.





As far as Obama admitting to any wrongdoing is concerned.....as far as I know he hasn't been man enough to say he was wrong about anything.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 6, 2008)

Danielle_E. said:


> OhHorsePee said:
> 
> 
> > I find this disturbing! Obama Youth Is this the next reich?
> ...


WHOA..about his color?? EXCUSE me..show me ONE post ..

I want to make One thing clear..he could be green blue or purple..I give a rats behind..

We have many friends that are african americans..there are good and bad people of EVERY color, religion or Nationality..why do ppeople always play the race card..???

IF Obama was to loose..(NO I don't think so..but there is always hope) we all would be stamped racists..Unbelievable


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## Pepipony (Oct 6, 2008)

OhHorsePee said:


> LowriseMinis said:
> 
> 
> > The comparison still stands. By my association with my dad, do I support or condone the actions of the U.S. Army during Vietnam? Do I think it was a right and just war? I may, or I may not.
> ...




With specific facts and not 'ideas' , exactly how is Obama hiding any relationship? I mean come on people. This was all hashed out long ago. But, I guess since McCain is falling in the polls, people have to dig up 6 degrees of seperation half truths to make the other guy look bad. TG, oh TG the people of this country are starting to get smart and realize this is a smear tactic the Republicans picked up from Rove. Shame on them for not having any better morals. Shame on the people that believe everything they read that is negative about the other guy.


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## Cathy_H (Oct 6, 2008)

> I want a minimum of three separate nationally known sources and ideally some pictures, and will also require him to have been found guilty by a jury of his peers or have admitted to wrongdoing himself in lieu of a verdict.


.......... May we request the same for McCain???


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## Jill (Oct 6, 2008)

> I do hope Obama stays out of the low, smearing poo poo that McCane/Palin is doing and lets Americans know what he is going to do for the people.. something McCain/Palin is NOT doing..


Mary Lou --

Obama could let you know what he HAS done for the American people since taking elected office. IMO, voting "present" didn't do that much for us. On the other hand, McCain has done a lot for our Nation, and he also has solid plans for the future.

Sheryl, excellent point on ambition and options. The availability of good jobs to the youth of today has nothing to do with Obama.

Jill


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## Pepipony (Oct 6, 2008)

Jill said:


> Yeah, Pep, I guess you've figured out my motive
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe if you read what I said and didnt read INTO what I said, you would have caught this the first time. It was a national poll group asking Americans who they thought was the most trustworthy. It wasnt CNN asking, nor was it sponsored BY them. And of course CNN would be the only news outlet to report this fact.

CNN's poll link


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## tagalong (Oct 6, 2008)

Pepipony said:


> Maybe if you read what I said and didnt read INTO what I said, you would have caught this the first time. *It was a national poll group asking Americans who they thought was the most trustworthy. It wasnt CNN asking, nor was it sponsored BY them.* And of course CNN would be the only news outlet to report this fact.


Bolding mine.

*Pepipony* - the most vehement posters in this thread have proven time and again that they only read what they want to read into things - including viral emails etc.

Anyone else - even those of us who have pointed out where BOTH candidates have been lacking is sneered at with lots of



and attempted zingers - which as you know - are crucial to any thoughtful discussion....



> As far as Obama admitting to any wrongdoing is concerned.....as far as I know he hasn't been man enough to say he was wrong about anything.


When that ^^^ kind of rhetoric is stated... when it is flatly stated that Obama supports terrorism... when others of opposing viewpoints arre simply sneered at as being sheep... when the "rah-rah sisterhood" is too busy high-fiving each other to actually look into the issues at hand... I worry.

Yes, Obama has been "man enough" to say he was wrong - as he did in his statement about Rev. Wright. But as always, facts do not matter when rhetoric will do. I do not know if it is even worthwhile to post any links to actual non-partisan facts anymore as so many here simply disregard them.

Listening to Sarah Palin (why oh why was Condi not picked??!!) speak today as if she was talking to kindergarteners... was just plain sad. She chit-chats about Ayers in her rather affected cutesy, chirpy way while the economy is teetering.. just feeding into the fearmongering that is pushing Americans waaaaay off the topic at hand. I would hope that is not deliberate - because if so - it is mind-boggling in its ignorance of what is going on. And if Americans lap that up and ignore the big issues....





My comparison to family members with different beliefs was far more valid than the example of any reverend or acquaintance - and I am stymied that some of you cannot see that - and just dismissed it.

Well, I know why - it does not help prove your point - but anyway... *family ties are the strongest ties of all *- and yet NO - I do not believe as those family members do - never have and never will... and to suggest that I would due to that association is ridiculous. Ties that are even looser - be they casual friends or OTT preachers... are even less of a issue when it comes to determining how an individual thinks, believes or acts...



> On the other hand, McCain has done a lot for our Nation, and he also has solid plans for the future.


*Solid* plans? Sheer political posturing. Obama does it, too. There is no such thing as "solid" plans in any political campaign... they are based on "promises" and "hope" and "change"... and always have been.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

OhHorsePee-The information about Ayers has been widely published online for months. In this age of information it's tough to hide anything, even if one wanted to try...which I don't think Obama HAS. In contrast, there have been times I've tried to hide my relationship with my dad...can't take that man out in public sometimes!

Appy-I'm pretty sure my dad knows how I feel about his service and how I feel about the war he was involved in (and to me those are two separate feelings). We talk war and politics often. I know he'd be a-okay with the comparison because my dad's a very smart man, and he would get what I was saying, which was NOT calling him a terrorist.

Cathy-the same for McCain about what? Folks seem to want to tie Obama to things and events without proof. If anyone tries to do the same with McCain then yes, you should demand the same!

Jill, Obama's done a lot more than vote 'present'. OnTheIssues has some of the things he's voted for and supported. I'm looking at McCain's voting record and he has an awful lot of 'no votes', meaning he did not vote, in his record. Especially when it comes to budget, finance, and taxes. Interesting, IMO: http://www.votesmart.org/voting_category.php?can_id=53270


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

tagalong said:


> Listening to Sarah Palin (why oh why was Condi not picked??!!) speak today as if she was talking to kindergarteners... was just plain sad. She chit-chats about Ayers in her rather affected cutesy, chirpy way while the economy is teetering.. just feeding into the fearmongering that is pushing Americans waaaaay off the topic at hand. I would hope that is not deliberate - because if so - it is mind-boggling in its ignorance of what is going on. And if Americans lap that up and ignore the big issues....


I watched the VP debates on CNN, and they had a live poll of undecided Ohio voters. Every time Palin tried to be 'cute' or used the word 'maverick', that line seemed to dip just a little. I think those kinds of things work for her fan base, but they aren't pulling in the undecided vote.


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## Jill (Oct 7, 2008)

Lowrise -- Yes, Obama's done more than vote present even though he's done that a lot. He's also requested many millions in earmarks. And spent a lot of his term campaigning vs. serving his state as senator... I guess he just phones that in.

Can't wait for tonight!


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## Sonya (Oct 7, 2008)

Lowrise...I must say, of all this political discussions, what you said bothers me more than anything...

saying our vietnam vets are terriorists (especially your own father)......all I can say is WOW! Talk about disrespect and unappreciation. Our men and women of the military (current and past regardless of which war or military action) sacrifice so much for your freedom and it's disgusting that you are so unappreciative.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 7, 2008)

Now that he has a son off to training before being shipped to Iran I can't help but wonder how Biden feels about the disrespect his running mate shows the military. I would imagine it's a pretty darned hard pill to swallow. Whether we agree with the war (or any war for that matter) our service members deserve our respect!! They aren't there because they want to be....but because they feel an obligation to do their part to maintain our country's freedom. I believe it's commonly called Patriotism.

As a Missourian I hate to say that that video was made at a school in Missouri. It was not done by Obama or his campaign committee members. The teacher who was responsible has been suspended and is possibly facing termination. Why? Because, despite 1st Amendment rights, teachers are not allowed to use their position to further a political candidate. I have to say that I personally find it very disturbing that it was done with such a militant flavor. BDU's and combat boots??? It would'nt have concerned me nearly as much if those young men had been in a tie and sport coat or even in jeans and a t-shirt.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 7, 2008)

I hope not too Mary Lou. I kinda think voters need to consider not voting for any current incumbent in the House and Senate. It's time to let them know we don't like the job they've done and are doing and the best way I know to do that is to send them home.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 7, 2008)

Oh Mary Lou I didn't intend my comment to sound partisan. I said any incumbent. There was no mention of party.


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## OhHorsePee (Oct 7, 2008)

AppyLover2 said:


> Now that he has a son off to training before being shipped to Iran I can't help but wonder how Biden feels about the disrespect his running mate shows the military. I would imagine it's a pretty darned hard pill to swallow. Whether we agree with the war (or any war for that matter) our service members deserve our respect!! They aren't there because they want to be....but because they feel an obligation to do their part to maintain our country's freedom. I believe it's commonly called Patriotism.


I second that! It bothers me.



AppyLover2 said:


> As a Missourian I hate to say that that video was made at a school in Missouri. It was not done by Obama or his campaign committee members. The teacher who was responsible has been suspended and is possibly facing termination. Why? Because, despite 1st Amendment rights, teachers are not allowed to use their position to further a political candidate. I have to say that I personally find it very disturbing that it was done with such a militant flavor. BDU's and combat boots??? It would'nt have concerned me nearly as much if those young men had been in a tie and sport coat or even in jeans and a t-shirt.



YES! The militant behavior and the fact that adults keep having children do these type of "support" for a presidential candidate. I would even say this if someone has done it for McCain.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

Sonya said:


> Lowrise...I must say, of all this political discussions, what you said bothers me more than anything...
> saying our vietnam vets are terriorists (especially your own father)......all I can say is WOW! Talk about disrespect and unappreciation. Our men and women of the military (current and past regardless of which war or military action) sacrifice so much for your freedom and it's disgusting that you are so unappreciative.


I think it's disgusting how out of context people take things.

One, I never said Vietnam vets were terrorists. Anywhere, ever. Furthermore I don't think I've ever said how I feel about vets or the Vietnam war in general. Yes, I made a sarcastic reply to someone accusing me of the same thing because it is easily one of the stupidest, most ridiculous things I've ever been accused of.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

AppyLover2 said:


> Now that he has a son off to training before being shipped to Iran I can't help but wonder how Biden feels about the disrespect his running mate shows the military.


What disrespect, specifically? I can't think of any off the top of my head, but I do know a few veteran's groups seem to like Obama...

And my Vietnam vet 'terrorist'



dad and soldier-to-be boyfriend are both strong Obama supporters.


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

> One, I never said Vietnam vets were terrorists. Anywhere, ever. Furthermore I don't think I've ever said how I feel about vets or the Vietnam war in general. Yes, I made a sarcastic reply to someone accusing me of the same thing because it is easily one of the stupidest, most ridiculous things I've ever been accused of.




I can't make the quotes work on more than one statement. Please go back to page 6, Littlesteppers asked you "are you telling me a soldier is the same as a terrorist? Your answer was. Yes that is exactly what I'm telling you.


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

> Are you telling me a soldier is the same than a terrorist??


Littlestepper question


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

> [SIZE=8pt]Can't stop now[/SIZE]
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

Bassett said:


> > [SIZE=8pt]Can't stop now[/SIZE]
> >
> >
> >
> > ...



Sorry for the 3 posts but I did want it in Lowrises words before it was taken off. She did say that soldiers are terrorists. That is the way I took her statement when she said Yes that is exactly what I am saying when asked if she was telling littlestepper she thought a soldier was the same as a terrorists.


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## Cathy_H (Oct 7, 2008)

> LowriseMinis Posted Today, 02:02 PM QUOTE (Sonya @ Oct 7 2008, 07:05 AM)
> 
> I think it's disgusting how out of context people take things.



Lowrise,

I thought the same thing when I read your response yesterday to my comment on the topic of, "lets bring some balance to the table" started by Danielle - but I decided to let it go.

Lowrise - Yesterday, 10:27 PM Post #21



> Cathy-I hope you're not going to pull out the old "Obama is the Anti-Christ" thing


And my answer to you ..............



> Actually & TRUTHFULLY that had NOT crossed my mind......./


ML - I'm not attacking - just helping her hold up the mirror.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

Aside from putting in the little eye-rolling smiley, I'm really not sure how else I can express sarcasm to you people.


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## Sonya (Oct 7, 2008)

Mary Lou...no disrespect to you, but I took Lowrises comments compairing her father, a vietnam vet, to a terrorist, extremely personal to me as well. I do not know her father, but I am the daughter of a vet (2 tours in nam), with a purple heart, and still shrapnell in his back. The niece of a man who has no legs after a short tour in nam. I do not take lightly to disrespecting our troops (and my family), so yes I did take it personal and responded accordingly...I will not apologize for that.

I did not feel I took her words out of context, I can post them here, but that wouldn't be necessary since bassett did it for me. Thanks Bassett.

as far as the rolly eye thing...I am on dial up, all I see is a smiley face, no animation. If lowrise meant to be sarcastic, why would she later say "the comparison still stands". She did try to soften the subject by adding in a nutshut something to the effect that because her father killed people (during war), doesn't mean that she supports what the war was about or is a murderer....I guess trying to point out that because Obama associates with terrorists doesn't make him one. Either way, doesn't really matter, I took offense to the way she described veterans...as murderers...I took it personal.

God Bless Our Troops...and all who have served! I for one am very appreciative to our service members, and other Country's troops who stand beside ours. I certainly would not refer to them as murderers, to me it is disrespectful.


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## Jill (Oct 7, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Off topic but I do hope this is not true..http://www.abcnews.go.com/Blotter/story?id...3452&page=1


Mary Lou -- Well, I heard about it on Fox News, so it must be true












(unfortunately, that is!)


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

I love how the comparison I made went from an example to "Lowrise thinks soldiers are terrorists!"





I know sarcasm doesn't carry well over the internet, though I do try. Still, no one's really responded to the comparison, so let me say this again:

Does my relationship with my father mean that I automatically support the actions of our troops or our involvement in the Vietnam war, yes or no?

Don't like that comparison? Here's a few more (and not all of them are true):

Does my voluntary choice to work in education mean I agree with and support the No Child Left Behind Act?

Does my friendship with a person who protested for equal rights for blacks in the 1960's mean I agree with their position?

Does the fact I work with a person who is a pro-life Christian mean I automatically agree with their religion and position?

I can go on and on, but here's the point. Just because I, you, Obama, or anyone know a person, or work with that person, does not mean you automatically agree with and CERTAINLY does not mean you are involved in the same things they are.


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> I love how the comparison I made went from an example to "Lowrise thinks soldiers are terrorists!"
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think you are skirting the statement you made. We are not talking about what you are saying here. Only One statement you made and are now saying you didn't say it. You did say Yes that is exactly what I am saying when asked if you thought soldiers were terrorists. Did you or did you not?


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

Basset-do you genuinely not understand sarcasm? Really? You're telling me you've never said a single thing you didn't mean with a sarcastic tone?

You honestly don't understand what



that particular emoticon means?


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## Jill (Oct 7, 2008)

Actually, more often than not when I see "



" used, I think it's usually because the poster is implying _"you really don't know what you're talking about"_, _"give me a break" _or _"this will be lost on you."_ I have a sarcastic sense of humor and I enjoy sarcasm, but that's not usually what I think is meant by the use of "



" .


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

Jill said:


> _"this will be lost on you."_


And clearly, it was. Now, should we get back to the real topics or would you like to continue taking my sarcastic remark out of context?


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## Sonya (Oct 7, 2008)

Lowrise, the problem with your comparisons you just listed, are not valid....because you are not running for President.

Your decisions do not effect millions of Americans on a daily basis, like a president can be held accountable for. That is why associations do matter when it comes to being the President...

I hold a fairly high security clearance for my job, federal govt. They do investigate your backround, and you would be amazed at what could keep me from getting a security clearance...associations are one of them.


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

> Basset-do you genuinely not understand sarcasm? Really? You're telling me you've never said a single thing you didn't mean with a sarcastic tone?
> You honestly don't understand what
> 
> 
> ...









I say lots of things like that BUT I for one DO NOT turn around and say I DIDN'T say them, being sarcastic or not. If I say something I take responsibility FOR my remark. Come on now admit you said it.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

And yet despite his 'associations', Obama is still allowed to be in the Senate and apparently allowed to be the President.

For me and for a lot of voters, associations just don't do it. And as I've stated before if you want to play that 'game', we have to look at McCain's associations, too. I've pointed out some dubious ones in the past, yet a great deal of our Republican board members didn't seem to care about them.

You know, John "Keating Five" McCain? His ties to a Russian mobster? Family money coming from organized crime? How about the Gramm-Leech-Bliley Act, which repealed banking regulations set up during the Great Depression to help keep another depression from happening? You might remember who Gramm is. Gramm is McCain's chief financial adviser. The guy who called us a 'nation of whiners'.

A lot of folks here don't care about any of that, and IMO that's just fine. I, personally, feel that some of the things and people McCain's been involved with are more of a threat to the future of the country than Obama's flimsy ties, but that's just me.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 7, 2008)

Bassett-I'm flattered that you're so concerned with what I say! Makes me feel like _I'm_ the one running for office!

Okay, since what I've said is so important to you, I'll say it. I did, in fact, make a sarcastic remark about soldiers being the same as terrorists. Everyone have a chuckle at Lowrise. You're also invited to chuckle at the folks who don't know sarcasm when they see it.

Now, can we get back to the real issues?


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

> Now, can we get back to the real issues?


Sure enough. Now if we can only get Obama to admit a few things


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## Buckskin gal (Oct 7, 2008)

Lowrise, I think a lot of people do care about all of that but we just aren't as outspoken as some people. I do want to thank you for all the information you have put out for us to consider. You really conduct yourself and expressing your thoughts so wonderfully. I think you have shown real stamina and poise for all that has been dished out to you. I really enjoy hearing a young person speaking about their concerns for our country and giving their opinions. Keep up the good work.



LowriseMinis said:


> You know, John "Keating Five" McCain? His ties to a Russian mobster? Family money coming from organized crime? How about the Gramm-Leech-Bliley Act, which repealed banking regulations set up during the Great Depression to help keep another depression from happening? You might remember who Gramm is. Gramm is McCain's chief financial adviser. The guy who called us a 'nation of whiners'.
> A lot of folks here don't care about any of that, and IMO that's just fine. I, personally, feel that some of the things and people McCain's been involved with are more of a threat to the future of the country than Obama's flimsy ties, but that's just me.


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## Pepipony (Oct 7, 2008)

Bassett said:


> > Now, can we get back to the real issues?
> 
> 
> Sure enough. Now if we can only get Obama to admit a few things



Bassett, what facts and or evidence do you have that you want him to admit to? Or are you wanting him to admit to something that you have just heard or read that others are griping about?


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## Bassett (Oct 7, 2008)

> Bassett, what facts and or evidence do you have that you want him to admit to? Or are you wanting him to admit to something that you have just heard or read that others are griping about?


Let's watch the debates and I think if he answers the ???s asked you'll know. I sure hope they make both candidates answer what is asked. They all go off subject when asked a question, but O is a master at it. I don't think either of them will be able to stray tonight. Maybe we will find out a few things. Then you will know. ok?


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 7, 2008)

Well by darn.....Obama finally said something positive about our troops. Hallejuah


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## susanne (Oct 8, 2008)

Fox is one thing...

...but after reading the email, I am truly afraid for our country.

It is downright terrifying that anybody could take such vile, assinine trash seriously. Talk about pornography!

I thought last night's debate was a breath of fresh air amidst this week's gutter sniping and a dramatic contrast to the grotesque fear-mongering I've witnessed here.

You all do your candidate a grave disservice.


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

susanne said:


> You all do your candidate a grave disservice.


Now really



So much for a breath of fresh air and dislike for mudslinging.

I think we all are trying hard and doing what we feel is best. I know I'd never do something I thought was a disservice to McCain / Palin or the party I proudly support.


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## susanne (Oct 8, 2008)

Funny...I was referring specifically to that email and anyone who would believe or repeat it.

I'm not a McCain supporter, I believe him to be a decent man and I cannot imagine he'd have anything to do with that sort of thing.


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

No, I don't find it at all funny.

I will talk politics all day long. I enjoy it. BUT, it feels like these threads all quickly turn to members who NORMALLY like each other quite a lot being nasty to each other vs. discussing the politics (or heck, I thought this was going to be about Fox News Channel...).


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## susanne (Oct 8, 2008)

...and if it had stayed with Fox, I would likely have said nothing or mentioned that I watched the Palin/Biden debate on our Fox channel to hear what their commentators had to say. But it took a turn many pages before I posted.

I don't think I'm being nasty when I object to such an appalling email. I'd feel the same way if someone sent something like that about McCain.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 8, 2008)

WOW ACORN has been really busy. Investigations in 7 states right now. Over 900 suspect registrations in just one registration office in Missouri and 1100 in Indiana. Looks like the population of America has grown by leaps and bounds in a short time.....and oddly enough they're all old enough to vote.

Edited to add - I think we're all outraged about AIG's boondoggle at taxpayer expense. Anyone have any idea how we could go about letting our voice be heard? Who to contact? Any ideas???


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## Bassett (Oct 8, 2008)

> Looks like the population of America has grown by leaps and bounds in a short time.....and oddly enough they're all old enough to vote.












Poor people, missed their whole childhood. Found many with the name of Monica Ray in Missouri. Lots in Nevada that are going to the FBI tomorrow. Just hope it is soon enough to make a difference.


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## Cathy_H (Oct 8, 2008)

Out of 2000 recently submitted registered voters in Indiana 1100 have been found to be illegal............... (another state) - Yes one person was registered 10 times - Monica Ray - all with different telephone #'s & different addresses. Does this person even exist?.

Obama not involved with ACORN!! Please!! I saw Obama myself SAY on televison that he was involved with Project Vote. Project Vote is ACORN's current slogan claiming to register over one million people! ................... Dead or alive, illegal or not - by gosh they are going to do what they have to to win this election!!!! Do you really want someone like that running your country?


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

Cathy_H said:


> Out of 2000 recently submitted registered voters in Indiana 1100 have been found to be illegal............... (another state) - Yes one person was registered 10 times - Monica Ray - all with different telephone #'s & different addresses. Does this person even exist?.
> Obama not involved with ACORN!! Please!! I saw Obama myself SAY on televison that he was involved with Project Vote. Project Vote is ACORN's current slogan claiming to register over one million people! ................... Dead or alive, illegal or not - by gosh they are going to do what they have to to win this election!!!! Do you really want someone like that running your country?


Oh wow..now they hired felons?? I don't care what party you want to win ..anybody should be outraged!!

http://voices.washingtonpost.com/the-trail...ces_raided.html


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

I am having a lot of trouble finding some unbiased sources about what exactly Acorn has done/is doing, and Obama's involvement. A lot of the articles I'm finding are just blog posts from obviously biased bloggers.

I don't think Obama's ever said he wasn't involved in Acorn and yes, Acorn's done some bad stuff. But I ask again, as always, do we have any evidence of wrongdoing BY Obama?

I found one article saying that he was involved with Acorn in 1995-13 years ago.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 8, 2008)

Lowrise why is it any time someone says something you dont like or agree with you expect them to prove it? I'd think if you're so determined to prove everyone wrong you'd look for your own evidence in any of these issues you seem to take such exception to.


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## Pepipony (Oct 8, 2008)

LowriseMinis said:


> I am having a lot of trouble finding some unbiased sources about what exactly Acorn has done/is doing, and Obama's involvement. A lot of the articles I'm finding are just blog posts from obviously biased bloggers.
> I don't think Obama's ever said he wasn't involved in Acorn and yes, Acorn's done some bad stuff. But I ask again, as always, do we have any evidence of wrongdoing BY Obama?
> 
> I found one article saying that he was involved with Acorn in 1995-13 years ago.



Aww Hon, you should know by now that if its a negative about the other guy, it doesnt matter what the facts are. If its in print, then it must be true!!!!!!! Now, if its a negative about 'my' guy , then it must be proven true before being believed and even then, 'I'll' probably deny it or figure some excuse on why its there.





We have also learned that every Democrat is at fault for anything and everything that is done in or for their names. While republicans are completely blamless for anything and everything ever done, that ever will be done or ever can be done.


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

That's the thing, I AM looking and I can't find much.

I have a vested interest in these things called 'facts'. The facts I have right now are that: Obama was at one time involved with Acorn, and that Acorn has done some bad things.

That's it.

What I want to KNOW is when exactly was he involved with Acorn? What was his roll? Are there any concrete ties to any wrongdoing on his part?

Is it really so awful to want to know those things? Yes, speculation is easy. It's easy to go "Oh, look, scary!" and let that be the end of it. But it's not enough for me. I want the truth and in this case, I'm having trouble finding it. I've known about Acorn for a while, now, but even after months of occasional searching, nothing really interesting has come up.

*And to make sure I'm not presenting a double standard, I always try to provide sources when I bring up anything about any of the candidates, so those interested can cross-check my information.


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## Bassett (Oct 8, 2008)

> *And to make sure I'm not presenting a double standard, I always try to provide sources when I bring up anything about any of the candidates, so those interested can cross-check my information.


You do, I give you credit for that but is the information you give any more right than the information other people give that you claim is biased?


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

I try and do my best. Whenever possible I go with national news sources. I know they may have a slight bias but in my experience all the big news sources (FOX included) get the bare-bones facts down right. When I cannot get the information from major news sources I try to cross-reference everything I can-multiple blogs, Wikipedia, FactCheck, whatever's available.

And if anyone ever doubts something I post, they are welcome to ask for different/other sources and I'll do what I can.


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## tagalong (Oct 8, 2008)

> Lowrise why is it any time someone says something you dont like or agree with* you expect them to prove it?* I'd think if you're so determined to prove everyone wrong you'd look for your own evidence in any of these issues you seem to take such exception to.


Imagine that - the desire to base things on facts instead of blogs - which are only someone else's opinion or collections of opinions... or viral emails that have very little to do with fact.

The idea that one should blindly accept whatever you are fed without checking if it is indeed a fact... saddens me. And yet it has happened over and over again in these threads. *Lowrise*, me, others have all supplies links to PROVE things... not just mudslinging ads, chain emails or Youtube montages.... anyone can use NON-PARTISAN factcheck.org to prove any allegations - only most of you refuse to. And choose to



and belittle and sneer at others instead. And then come back to



about how rude others are??!!

Back to Fox, if you insist. Just _saying_ you are Fair & Balanced does not mean you are - it is simply advertising. Fox, like many other networks, does lean one way. Which is fine as there is nothing wrong with that - but insisting that is not the case is the same as saying that The Daily Kos does not lean left...


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## Southern_Heart (Oct 8, 2008)

LowriseMinis

FOX NEWS info on Obama and Acorn


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

Thank you for the link, Southern_Heart. I was familiar with Kurtz's article, too, but it was one of the few things I'd been able to find so far! I hadn't seen this article yet.

(edited because I fail at reading headings-article is from Huffington Post)


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## Southern_Heart (Oct 8, 2008)

LowriseMinis,

This is also a good read on Obama and Acorn.

also read this on Obama and acorn


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

I'm thinking if *I* had the number and degree of shady relationships as Obama -- forget what *I* actually did, but if I was connected with crooks, racists and terrorists -- some of you that would elect Obama as President would not want to buy a $5 stable halter from me


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## tagalong (Oct 8, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Jill.. do you pal around with Sara Palin? Sounds like it..
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Awww... *ML*, you know that anything Sarah says/does is beyond reproach as long as she says it all cutesy with lots of winks and _you betchas_. And that all the intense scrutiny must only go one way...





I have a question for McCain supporters... I see no signs of a _maverick_ of any kind. Would a _maverick_ have supported that immense bailout that may have no effect? Would a _maverick_ have helped add assorted sweeteners/pork to such a bailout? Would a _maverick_ have started out last night supporting a bailout for all those who have gotten into mortgage trouble??

I don't think so... in fact it seemed more Democratic than Republican... or far beyond Dem with the mortgage offer... and more Socialist.

_*puzzled*_

The debate last night... not that it was actually a debate per se... just made me roll my eyes and want some - I dunno - _substance._ Real solutions. A real maverick. Someone who will not just go with the flow but break the trail.

I do not think that either candidate is showing that...


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Last nights debate was pitiful.. Please do some of the fact check on the LIES that McCain did.. He is no better then Bush and totally going off his nut.. The first warning sign was when he picked Palin.. And last night was pitiful.. I really see his desire but he just does not have anything left to take on the problems Bush is leaving us with..
> I like McCain but it is past his time.. he needs to be put out to pasture.. and enjoy the sweet life with his charming wife.. I truly mean that..


Well FACTS are mcCain did 7 lies and Obama did 8 lies..


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> Jill.. do you pal around with Sara Palin? Sounds like it..


I'm proud to say, I think Sarah Palin and I would get along very well. One of my clients and I were just speaking this afternoon about how much we get a kick out of and admire her. And, as you know, I have been expressing my disgust with Obama's racist, terrorist and criminal connections for months.


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

double post


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

littlesteppers said:


> Mary Lou - LB said:
> 
> 
> > Last nights debate was pitiful.. Please do some of the fact check on the LIES that McCain did.. He is no better then Bush and totally going off his nut.. The first warning sign was when he picked Palin.. And last night was pitiful.. I really see his desire but he just does not have anything left to take on the problems Bush is leaving us with..
> ...


Thanks, Christine!!! I have been so busy professionally the past couple of weeks that I haven't been able to chime in as much as (you all know) I'd like to, and it's good to see you and the others toeing the line







Not that we'd want to confuse any Democrats with the actual facts


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## sdmini (Oct 8, 2008)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> I like McCain but it is past his time.. he needs to be put out to pasture..


Funny my analogy between the two has been this; our nation is needing Top TB to take on the fences (issues) and what we have is a two year old green horse and a aged horse that has seen spryer days. IMO neither candidate is best suited to run this country at this time.


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## littlesteppers (Oct 8, 2008)

sdmini said:


> Mary Lou - LB said:
> 
> 
> > I like McCain but it is past his time.. he needs to be put out to pasture..
> ...


Soooo who do we have






got somebody in mind??


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

These comments about McCain's age and about Palin can't be VP and a mom at the same time... Those really are as offensive as someone making racist remarks about Obama. At least that is my perspective as a woman who can do more than one thing in life at the same time and a professional who works with many senior citizens who could run figurative and literal circles around a lot of those 1/2 their ages. Sexist and ageist remarks aren't any more "okay" than racist ones.


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## AppyLover2 (Oct 8, 2008)

Well said Jill!


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## sdmini (Oct 8, 2008)

Oh good grief it was a tongue in check comparison. Guess you didn't take it as a dig at Obama though huh Jill.



If it would make everyone happier I mean I don't think either one are qualified for the job...is that better?

To make this even funnier from my point of view I"M VOTING McCain!!! Even though I don't think he's the right man for the job I will pick experience over some one "green".





***Have to go back and read as I must have missed the post about Palin not being able to be a mom and VP***


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## LowriseMinis (Oct 8, 2008)

As I see it, the only thing the McCain campaign has left over Obama is personal attacks and trying to discredit him. He can't win on the issues, so things are probably going to get much nastier in the coming weeks. According to the polls and the reactions from the debates that tactic isn't working for him, though.


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## Jill (Oct 8, 2008)

Marlee - at the risk of really peeing in the sandbox, I actually was speaking to Mary Lou. I think she's awesome but man oh man, I couldn't disagree with her more about some current subjects



One of the first things I remember ML saying about Palin was how could she be a mother and VP (paraphrasing but that was the jist).


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## sdmini (Oct 8, 2008)

No problem Jill.


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