# I DROVE SHAKE TODAY!!!



## Mominis (Jun 6, 2011)

I couldn't wait to share this with you and maybe I'm slightly insane...we put him to yesterday for the very first time and he went like a dream with me following behind. Today, the plan was to do the same thing, but He was so mellow and just cruising along so nicely (despite four other horses in the arena) that I decided to just hop in. We only walked, but we did full arena and long diagonals at the walk. He was just great!!




:wub


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jun 6, 2011)

Congratulations! Nothing like seeing all those hours of training starting to pay off.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 6, 2011)

You know I think that's fabulous, Mimi.



Congratulations!! Where it's insane is when people are throwing a harness on a completely unhandled horse, putting the cart on him on a whim "to see how he'd do," then can't quite resist hopping in.



You did nothing like that.

Shake has had all the training in the world, knows about the shafts, knows about pulling weight, knows about having you behind him...all you did was combine the pulling weight...in the cart...with you being the weight behind him! It SHOULD be a non-event like that and I don't think you were jumping the gun at _all_.





You and he may have been hot and tired today but he looked great in the cart and I love your setup. Can't wait to see your progress!

Leia


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## Taylor Richelle (Jun 6, 2011)

Congrats! Sounds like you're going to make a great team! I love that feeling of finally getting in the cart for the first time and having it go so smoothly


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## susanne (Jun 6, 2011)

And the photos are where???

I can say this, as we had no photos of Mingus' first drive. It was several years back, but I clearly recall my elation...I don't think my feet touched the ground for days.

It may be one small step for Shake, but it's a giant leap for your driving partnership, so congratulations!


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## Elizabeth Pannill (Jun 6, 2011)

I hate to be the one to make a fuss but I think it is dangerous to drive a horse from behind while it is hitched. I have seen other mini owners do this. No one would ever do this with a full size horse so why a mini - cause they are smaller ?? If the horse gets away - suddenly there is a very dangerous situation not to mention maybe ruining your mini for forever.

Do most have their minis drag a tire before hitching ? Then maybe have a helper head the horse at a walk with someone in the cart ??

Elizabeth


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 6, 2011)

Elizabeth Pannill said:


> Do most have their minis drag a tire before hitching ? Then maybe have a helper head the horse at a walk with someone in the cart ??
> Elizabeth


She did that yesterday, Elizabeth.



Well, not with her in the cart but she had a header on a lead and several helpers standing by. I think the tire is actually far more dangerous and harder for the horse than the cart itself so I may skip that step with Turbo but it's certainly a normal step with full-sized horses. As you said, you'd never walk behind a hitched full-sized horse so there MUST be some sort of intermediate stage between ground-driving in harness and hopping in the hitched cart.

I would never ground-drive my mini from beside the cart at a professional driving event because I know full-well what ADS drivers would think of it. And they are right- it is dangerous! I cringe when I see trainers double-lunging hot Modern Shetlands in cart in the warmup ring at R shows, which they do regularly.



Talk about putting others at risk! But at the same time, handling my mini is not the same as handling a Friesian.

I cannot possibly flip the lines over the cart if a Friesian turns unexpectedly, the cart could easily kill me if he suddenly backed up over me or whirled into me, and that is a deadly, deadly weapon if he gets loose with it. Plus the addition of one human to a cart that big is hardly going to be noticed by the horse, weightwise. With the mini there is no interference in the line of the reins and far less potential for major injury (i.e. death or dismemberment). That does NOT negate the significant psychological risk to the horse in case of an accident, but I have to weigh that against the fact I am more than doubling the weight of that vehicle when I get in it and my green horse may not be ready for that yet. Like Mimi, I don't want to do too many things at once and simply walking around with the cart attached is probably enough for the first day.

I would consider it far more risky to lead him around in that cart than to ground-drive him around in it as you cannot possibly control a hitched horse sufficiently through a leadline. The best possible combo, of course, is exactly what Mimi did- have a header and ground-drive in an enclosed arena then get in as soon as possible. I've seen Sterling Graburn do that with a much larger pony.

Just my controversial .02.

Leia

Edited to add: The tire thing made me think. Don't agricultural drivers walk behind a PAIR of horses hitched to a plow or other dragging device?? Things with sharp steel blades? It seems to me like that would be far riskier than a light rolling vehicle but maybe it's the opposite or maybe the disposition and training of the horses makes the difference. It would be interesting to discuss.


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## disneyhorse (Jun 6, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Edited to add: The tire thing made me think. Don't agricultural drivers walk behind a PAIR of horses hitched to a plow or other dragging device?? Things with sharp steel blades? It seems to me like that would be far riskier than a light rolling vehicle but maybe it's the opposite or maybe the disposition and training of the horses makes the difference. It would be interesting to discuss.


Yes, draft teams ARE driven often walking from behind... but a plow offers quite a bit of resistance so the horses get a bit tired out... they are WORKING not just pulling a light cart so I think there is a difference.

Congrats on driving Shake... I wanna see PICTURES!!! You are killing me!

Andrea


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## targetsmom (Jun 6, 2011)

Congrats!! How exciting.. or not exciting, I guess is the way you really want it! Yes, we want pictures!!!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 6, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


> Yes, draft teams ARE driven often walking from behind... *but a plow offers quite a bit of resistance so the horses get a bit tired out... they are WORKING* not just pulling a light cart so I think there is a difference.


Ah, an excellent point. So I guess if you'd worked your young horse with a tire and separately with shaft trainers (as Mimi did) then maybe you COULD just hop in the cart the first time. Hmm.

Leia


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## Sue_C. (Jun 7, 2011)

> Ah, an excellent point. So I guess if you'd worked your young horse with a tire and separately with shaft trainers (as Mimi did) then maybe you COULD just hop in the cart the first time. Hmm.


Exactly as I have always done. I don't do more than lead the horse a foot or two just to insure that everything is adjusted correctly, and in I hop. The horse already knows, because of the tire or drag, how to push into the collar or breastplate, and I have also made sure the horse has felt pressure on the breeching. Heck, they are pretty much totally "broke", so getting into the cart is a non-issue. Pretty much the same when saddle training my horses, but the time I finished the ground work, getting on and actually riding was never a big deal.


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## Mominis (Jun 7, 2011)

susanne said:


> And the photos are where???
> 
> I can say this, as we had no photos of Mingus' first drive. It was several years back, but I clearly recall my elation...I don't think my feet touched the ground for days.
> 
> It may be one small step for Shake, but it's a giant leap for your driving partnership, so congratulations!


Susanne, I did get a photo of he and I our first time--how could I not? However, he and I both look AWFUL in it and there is no way I'm posting it. It was almost 100 degrees yesterday and, while we have good ventilation in the barn, we both looked a little 'wilted.' lol But I'll get a picture to post soon. Fair enough?



Elizabeth Pannill said:


> I hate to be the one to make a fuss but I think it is dangerous to drive a horse from behind while it is hitched. I have seen other mini owners do this. No one would ever do this with a full size horse so why a mini - cause they are smaller ?? If the horse gets away - suddenly there is a very dangerous situation not to mention maybe ruining your mini for forever.
> 
> Do most have their minis drag a tire before hitching ? Then maybe have a helper head the horse at a walk with someone in the cart ??
> 
> Elizabeth


Elizabeth, as Leia said, yesterday, I had three helpers getting him put to for the first time. Connie walked behind the cart to be there to help pick the cart up around the turns, if it was needed. It wasn't. He was all pro about it. I walked safely off to the side, my husband had the safety line and walked first at Shake's head and later dropped back to his shoulder when Shake was going so well. Shannon was there to make sure all went well and we didn't need that 6th set of hands. I had him on my 20' lines, so I had plenty of room and didn't catch him in the mouth. After a couple rounds and all was going well, I stepped in behind the cart, Connie dropped back, but hubby still had the safety line. I would never just start there, we did extensive work before we put him to for the first time.

Yesterday, we started with hubby and the safety line with myself lining from behind. Then, I just figured 'what the hey' and halted Shake. Then I carefully stepped in to the cart and we continued on with the safety line in hubby's hand and myself in the cart. Finally, he dropped away with the safety line and we did a little solo and called it a day. Safety is very important to me and I don't feel like I took any huge risks. The horse was ready, I was ready, and the time was right. Thanks so much for your concern, though! We have to watch out for each other on the forums, right?


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## Mominis (Jun 7, 2011)

ooops double post


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## CZP1 (Jun 7, 2011)

How exciting! You have spent alot of time with Shakes on the ground work and taking your time! I commend you Mimi for that! Congratulations!!


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## susanne (Jun 7, 2011)

Mominis said:


> Susanne, I did get a photo of he and I our first time--how could I not? However, he and I both look AWFUL in it and there is no way I'm posting it. It was almost 100 degrees yesterday and, while we have good ventilation in the barn, we both looked a little 'wilted.' lol But I'll get a picture to post soon. Fair enough?


Sounds fair to me! (Glad you have that photo, even if it is for your eyes only!)

As for ground-driving while put to...

when in doubt, I always refer to Heike Bean. I don't have her book in front of me at the moment, but she has a photo of a full-sized horse hitched with one person ground-driving and two assistants with leads, one on each side -- in an arena, of course.

Since one of the recommended preliminary steps (also from HB) is to walk the horse with shafts resting in the tugs, but not hooked, I'm curious how this could ever be done without leading or ground-driving.

I very much respect your thorough training approach. The only thing that bothered me was that there were others in the arena when you first hitched him...but hey -- I'm the daughter of a fire chief, so I was born with oversensitive safety alerts...

.


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## RhineStone (Jun 7, 2011)

Elizabeth Pannill said:


> I hate to be the one to make a fuss but I think it is dangerous to drive a horse from behind while it is hitched. I have seen other mini owners do this. No one would ever do this with a full size horse so why a mini - cause they are smaller ??





hobbyhorse23 said:


> I would never ground-drive my mini from beside the cart at a professional driving event because I know full-well what ADS drivers would think of it. And they are right- it is dangerous!


We were at an ADS show the end of May and sure enough a mini driver decided to line drive their mini while it was put to the cart. The TD (Technical Delegate aka Rules Guru) was over there in a flash.

I know I am over-sensitive to the subject, but I cringe when I see mini drivers doing stuff that big horses drivers wouldn't do. It continues to give minis and their drivers a bad rap and doesn't help the cause for accepting minis as true athletic driving horses and not "tinker toys" that are "played with" by "people who can't handle 'real' horses". When I told someone that I would love to have more credibility in the driving world, that person's response was, "Then quit driving a mini." I can and do drive other size horses, but enjoy the minis, too. But this attitude of, "It's only a mini" is very frustrating to me. That mini can kill (or damage) you just as well as a big horse. I have a collection of "horror stories" to prove it.

Now that being said....I, too, will use a method similar to Sterling's of ground driving just a few steps when first put to the cart just to make sure everything's ok before I jump in the cart. I have a header with a lead on the horse as well. This is only done for a few steps, no more than say 30 ft. Before the cart is attached, we use shaft trainers and other stuff that the horse pulls around. We even lead the horse by a halter in the cart without it attached to the horse other than the shafts through the tugs (shaft loops) and one of us pulls the cart around by the shaft while the other leads the horse (with or without blinders depending on the horse). The more ways you can "break up" the training into smaller steps, the better, building onto each step as you go.

Once the horse is broke to drive, I am always in the cart when it is put to. No leading the horse while it is put to, nor ground driving with the cart attached for the sake of "exercise". That's just stupid.



You need to be in the cart with reins and whip in hand.

Myrna


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## ClickMini (Jun 7, 2011)

Congratulations, Mimi! I can't wait to see pics or even video of you driving your beloved Shake!


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## Mominis (Jun 7, 2011)

susanne said:


> Sounds fair to me! (Glad you have that photo, even if it is for your eyes only!)
> 
> As for ground-driving while put to...
> 
> ...



I really appreciate your concern, but the first time he was put to was the day before the first time I actually got into the cart and drove him. We were alone in the arena. I wouldn't put him to for the first time with others in the ring, it would have put Shake, my helpers, and anyone else in the arena in danger. I felt confident the second day and did get in the cart with others in the arena, but I did it with the husband holding the safety line and walking beside him, just out of Shake's sight. I only solo'ed (no hubby at the head) for a little bit and that was after all the horses were okay with the cart and all were very solid citizens.

I'll try and get a photo soon. I have a friend coming to video Shake for me on Wednesday because I've promised Leia some footage of him. lol She got to see the picture, courtesy of my hubby's camera phone. But, the way I looked, there is NO WAY I'd have that on the internet. lol Especially with the dust-turned-to-mud sweat dripping down my cheek and all. lol

Thanks for sharing my excitement!! I can't wait until tomorrow to do it again!


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## little lady (Jun 7, 2011)

Congrats! That is soooo exciting. Enjoy!!


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 7, 2011)

Mominis said:


> Safety is very important to me and *I don't feel like I took any huge risks*. The horse was ready, I was ready, and the time was right.


You didn't.



You have a wonderful way of training, Mimi, and I am SO glad I met you. It's really added to my pleasure in training T-Bo to be able to do it with you and Shake and share our accomplishments!



RhineStone said:


> When I told someone that I would love to have more credibility in the driving world, that person's response was, "Then quit driving a mini."


That's sad.



Here in the NW the minis and their drivers have earned the respect of most and are taken seriously even in the full CDE's. I guess we're lucky! We had an organizer who wanted to see us succeed and set up educational opportunities for us to learn to do things "the right way," plenty of full-sized horse driving instructors who were willing to work with us, and some very good-quality horses available locally who represent the breed at it's best. There's not much to disrespect about our VSE's and VSE drivers.



I sincerely hope the ADS meeting this fall will open a few Eastern eyes and can't wait to meet you and have you meet my boys.



I'm tentatively hoping to debut the tandem that weekend depending on how Turbo is doing!



RhineStone said:


> The more ways you can "break up" the training into smaller steps, the better, building onto each step as you go.


Absolutely.



That is the only reason I said I'd ground-drive a green horse in the cart- because it just seemed like too big a leap to me to go from never pulling the cart to being hitched AND DRIVEN in the same day. I had always intended to have a header leading the horse and to have done enough work beforehand that by the time they were hitched and pulling you could pretty much hop in. It sounds like the important part is having enough helpers to be able to walk the cart around without attaching it first, and that it's okay to be ground-driving in that circumstance?



RhineStone said:


> Once the horse is broke to drive, I am always in the cart when it is put to.


Of course.



I'm realizing that I never stated my unconscious assumption that such ground-driving (whether for a few feet or once around the ring, whatever) would only be done when the horse was first being put to the cart. After he's been through those broken-down small intro steps it's ridiculous to continue to do something so risky! Just get in already.







Mominis said:


> I'll try and get a photo soon. I have a friend coming to video Shake for me on Wednesday because I've promised Leia some footage of him. lol She got to see the picture, courtesy of my hubby's camera phone.


Nah, nah nah nyaaaa nah!



Hehehehe....

I really am excited for you, Mimi, and can't wait to see the video. Turbo is getting worked daily now and making lots of progress. Today Mom came out to watch and Kody was allowed to run the fenceline next to us so he was introduced to Distractions 101, which I'm not sure he was really ready for but did fine with. I'd give him a day off to process the experience but he's so eager to work he keeps grabbing the bridle from me and shoving his head through it!





Leia


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## drivin*me*buggy (Jun 7, 2011)

I am so happy for Mimi and Shake and hope we get to see video/pix soon






Myrna-that comment someone made to you to quit driving a mini makes me sad too. I have to say there is a side to some of the ADS stuff, the side that is so dismissive of minis ( and I know sometimes people bring it on themselves) that makes me not want to be involved with any of it. Makes me just want to drive here and enjoy the happiness it brings me. The way I see it, although I may not be anybody special, my time and money are important and hard earned to me,the time I have put into training my horses and the money I have spent on my gear. I don't need to feel looked down upon or second rate by anyone.

Angie


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## susanne (Jun 7, 2011)

Sorry, Mimi, I misread the part about the other people in the arena. Forget that part of my post, and it's all positive!


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## Mominis (Jun 8, 2011)

No worries, Susanne. I'm just thilled to have so many friends to share Shake's progress. I'm excited to get him out today and drive him again! Today, we are going to spend some time doing our simple ring figures and 90% solo. I'm going to have hubby on the safety line for the first pass and then have him drop away, leaving the safety line with me in the cart. If that goes well, it's into the great outdoors tomorrow. Well, the outdoor arena, but that's a start.


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## RhineStone (Jun 8, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> It sounds like the important part is having enough helpers to be able to walk the cart around without attaching it first, and that it's okay to be ground-driving in that circumstance?


No, we just lead the horse with a halter and lead or a blinder bridle and halter and lead. The purpose of this lesson is to get the horse used to the bumping of the shafts in the tugs and the shafts bumping them in a turn. If the horse doesn't like it, you can just let the shafts slip out of the tugs and the horse is free of "that thing". If we were to line drive while doing this lesson, we would have less control, nevermind that the horse has to think about being directed by the bit as well. We want them just to accept the cart at that point and not complicate the lesson.



drivin*me*buggy said:


> I have to say there is a side to some of the ADS stuff, the side that is so dismissive of minis ( and I know sometimes people bring it on themselves) that makes me not want to be involved with any of it. I don't need to feel looked down upon or second rate by anyone.


That is why we NEED good drivers to drive minis in an accepted way with good equipment to show people how they ARE "real" driving horses.



There are people that are doing that, and we have made great strides. People look twice when the best dressage score in an entire CDE comes from a mini (not mine... he's a bit limited by his driver....



....I like the principles of dressage, just not doing it....boring....



) The other thing that is helping is VSE drivers reaching out to other drivers. That could be offering to let them drive your horse, like the NW is doing at the Oct. ADS meeting, and discussing the features and benefits of minis with whoever will listen. We have multiple friends that have driven Morgans, Arabs, Haflingers, Fjords, Sport Ponies, etc. that now LOVE to drive their minis because they are so much easier to take to the shows (less of everything except ability and heart!). The best thing to do is let your big horse friends drive obstacles with a mini and see how they can negotiate them SO easily!





If you want to be accepted driving a real driving horse, then handle and drive them like they are real horses, not tinker toys or pets. Perception is a lot of the problem and the solution. I was reinforced with that when I gave a driving clinic a few weeks ago. All of the 4-Hers had simple, uncomfortable pipe carts (both big and little horses) with cheap harnesses that didn't fit, and their average horses were going less than brilliantly (which in some cases was directly correlated to the cheap equipment). The leadership said that driving just wouldn't catch on in their county. Well...I can see why. The rest of the members are watching the drivers bounce around in those carts with their less than fancy horses. Why would I want to do that, too when I can ride my fancy QH with a big silver saddle? If people could be exposed to what driving could be, then they would more likely to want to participate, too! That is how we got started in the carriage shows, we went to watch and decided we wanted to do that, too! If people see mini drivers doing less than acceptable stuff with their horses, they sure don't want to be lumped into that group! Again, perception is the problem and the solution. We need good mini drivers to help move the up the acceptance level!





Preliminary results of the new ADS survey are coming in and right now minis are the 4th most popular breed! One director was surprised at that, I suppose because the numbers of competitive VSE drivers is not booming throughout the country. But people need to realize that since minis can't really be rode, driving is pretty much a given if people want to do something with their minis. We're a "captive audience"!

Now let's get out there and drive those horses correctly!





Myrna


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## Mominis (Jun 13, 2011)

Progress Report: Shake is well on his way now! I can't believe he's only been actually hooked 6 times now. He's walking and trotting circles, three loop serpentines, long diagonals, short diagonals, and figure 8's. All of that bending work we did while pulling the tire and in the shaft trainers is really paying off!! He seems to just LOVE this! I almost took him outside today (we have been working in the indoor arena), but I decided to hold up on that and wait until they finish getting the new footing laid in the outdoor arena this week.


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jun 13, 2011)

!! Love the updates





I was all set to start my green gelding back in harness today but the weather has forced me to stick to the round pen work for now. As soon as the rain lets up and our arena dries out a bit he is ready to be hitched again (he has been hitched a handful of times since he was a late 2 year old so this is just a restart)I envy your progress right now, I have not yet even been able to drive my favorite mare yet this spring.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 13, 2011)

Congrats Mimi, I've been keeping up on FB! Shake is doing wonderfully and that's all down to your careful training.



Still waiting for that video...





Forgive the veer off-topic below. It's such a fun conversation! I promise if you post video I will talk about Shake and only Shake!







RhineStone said:


> No, we just lead the horse with a halter and lead or a blinder bridle and halter and lead. The purpose of this lesson is to get the horse used to the bumping of the shafts in the tugs and the shafts bumping them in a turn. *If the horse doesn't like it, you can just let the shafts slip out of the tugs* and the horse is free of "that thing". If we were to line drive while doing this lesson, we would have less control, nevermind that the horse has to think about being directed by the bit as well. We want them just to accept the cart at that point and not complicate the lesson.


Now see to me, that does not sound safe at all.



Just let it drop? Isn't that going to spook an unhappy horse even further? What if it struck their hocks on the way down or they stepped on a shaft and broke it??



Maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're talking about having a second person walk the cart around with the haltered horse, in which case I have no objection at all but still feel that at some point the horse needs to put together listening to the bit and being in the shafts at the same time (if only with a header's assistance.)



RhineStone said:


> Preliminary results of the new ADS survey are coming in and right now minis are the 4th most popular breed! One director was surprised at that, I suppose because the numbers of competitive VSE drivers is not booming throughout the country. *But people need to realize that since minis can't really be rode, driving is pretty much a given if people want to do something with their minis. We're a "captive audience"! *


Ha!



So true. I've often wished that our minis could be ridden as Kody, at least, would have been the best eventer ever at 16h. Due to their size however I'm stuck driving whether I'm really that interested in the sport or not and that's how the ADS got me. Of course that's also how the ADS got a _lot_ of mini drivers, so perhaps they ought to take that into account and market those recreational driving opportunities and safety clinics strongly towards the minis. Not everyone wants to do the fancy stuff!

(Warning, soap box below.)

Just saying "DO THIS!" isn't enough. It sounds like a bunch of silly safety rules for no good reason. SHOW people through accident videos what can happen if they don't. EXPLAIN the reasons behind each rule. And if the reasons no longer apply (like some things that were based on speedily hitching coaching four-in-hands for long road journeys and are now being applied to a single horse in an easy entry), then consider that some rules may no longer be as dire as tradition would have us believe. Checks were once traditional too, according to my reprinted coaching library. It took a lot to change that and many people howled about "safety" and "tradition" and "the rules" ... and now that those stubborn minds have been changed, people howl just as fervently the other way.





Just sayin' that a wise mind will learn all the rules, learn the historical and modern reasons behind them, and sort through them for which ones are applicable NOW. Most will be as the basic nature of horses does not change. Some will be but cause more risk than harm in a modern environment. And others must be applied on a case-by-case basis to do what is safest for the individual horse. But no matter what, you must KNOW the rules and know WHY they are in place before you can argue for disobeying them. A good horseman questions everything for the good of his horse but also understands that it is wisdom to learn from the mistakes and experiments of those who have gone before. One of the things I like about driving is that you can actually find the historical basis for most of the commonly-held safety rules.





Off my soap-box now.

Leia


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## RhineStone (Jun 13, 2011)

I, too, am interested to see this infamous Shake!







hobbyhorse23 said:


> Just let it drop? Isn't that going to spook an unhappy horse even further? What if it struck their hocks on the way down or they stepped on a shaft and broke it?? Maybe I'm misunderstanding and you're talking about having a second person walk the cart around with the haltered horse, in which case I have no objection at all but still feel that at some point the horse needs to put together listening to the bit and being in the shafts at the same time (if only with a header's assistance.)


No, we generally have a separate person hold the cart, so they can just grab the shaft behind the tug and let the horse walk out. Yes, eventually the horse is put in the shafts with the bridle when they are comfortable with both line driving and the cart. Remember, as many steps as you can break it up into, the better. (That's a John Lyons method.)

Actually, I have only had a couple of horses that I didn't feel comfortable putting to the cart. One was an Egyptian Arabian (should be a separate registry from the rest of the performance Arabs






), and the other was a Welsh pony cross. Both horses had a "tentative" feeling about them, like they were just waiting for the moon to crash.

(Where did the soapbox come from....



?)

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Jun 13, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> (Where did the soapbox come from....
> 
> 
> 
> ?)


It does seem a bit out of place after the editing I did on the first paragraph, doesn't it?



It fit right in when I was ranting about not trying to make everyone live up to the standards of Traditional Carriage Driving when some are only there because that's the only way to enjoy their small horses.



Obviously, I thought better of that rant.





Leia


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