# What do you think?



## maestoso (Aug 4, 2012)

It was suggested that I see where this will go, and see how people feel about it. So here goes. Because of all this Chic Fil A stuff there's been a lot of hype out there, and on this forum, about same sex marriage. In a thread there, I made this comparison.

"Stating that one does not support same-sex marriage is exactly the same as saying they are inferior to heterosexuals, or not as "right" since they don't deserve the same rights. Saying you don't support same sex marriage and then saying you have no problem with someone being gay is kind of like saying that you don't support abortion except in the case of rape. The only reason not to support abortion is because you feel it is morally wrong because you believe that it kills a living soul.

So.. if that's what one believes, why does it matter how the pregnancy happened? In the case of a fetus as the result of rape, and the fetus as the result of a partnership, neither fetus is any more at fault for having existed than they other. Both are living souls, etc. So why is it any more moral to have an abortion because of rape than have an abortion because of an unplanned pregnancy?"

So... many people support abortion either way. This topic really isn't for you, though feel free to chime in on your perspective but I'm not looking for this to turn into why you support aboriton.

Many don't support it under any circumstances. That's me. And I'm not looking for those reasons either. Most of us would say the same and it is simple. Simply, we feel that it is killing a living soul.

But there are people who are in the category of "it depends." Meaning, they only support abortion in the case of rape, but not in the case of an unplanned pregnancy. OR, they support early term abortion but not late term abortion. My question is, how/why did you decide this or how do you justify this?

As I stated, if the argument for not supporting it is that you feel it's killing a soul, than why DOES it matter if it's rape? What are the other arguments?


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## Sonya (Aug 4, 2012)

Unplanned pregnancies....the woman had a choice to have sex or not, to use contraceptive or not, or demand a partner use contraceptive or no hanky panky...rape, the woman had no choice.


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## Ashley (Aug 4, 2012)

Being rape cause damage in many areas of a womens life. Top it by a pregnancy, a constant reminder of what happened and how the child came about, the damage continues to destory a person. IT doesnt allow a person to heal and actually can damage a mother/child relationship.


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## Sue_C. (Aug 4, 2012)

I am very much apposed to abortion as "birth control", BUT...in the case of rape...I think it takes an amazingly special woman to carry, give birth to, love and nurture a rapist's child...myself...I am _not _that special. Just MY OPINION, but to me, it would be like being FORCED again and again, every day of my life, until released by the pain of birthing, to carry some vile reminder of that violent act upon myself. Just how I feel.


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## vickie gee (Aug 4, 2012)

Matt, thank you so much taking me up on my suggestion....bleeding hearts for the unborn. Thank you for asking "why does it matter if it's rape." I hope you get a sufficient amount of replies so that you can come to a conclusion.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 5, 2012)

I am one of the abortion is wrong no matter the circumstance people. However, I would never judge a woman who chose to have an abortion due to rape or incest. While I hope I would be strong enough to handle that if, God forbid, it happened to me, I would never harshly judge someone who chose to do what they felt was necessary. But my view stands from the fact that my family personally knows a woman who was raped - not date rape, but back alley, man with a mask, knife to her throat. She did become pregnant. She didn't believe in abortion. She decided to have the baby. He is now a wonderful young man and is a NY City Firefighter. I admire her strength to stand by her convictions.

Now, I'm going to throw another wrench into this debate with this article.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9113394/Killing-babies-no-different-from-abortion-experts-say.html

These are medical ethicists who propose that killing a newborn baby is no different from abortion. They say it should be allowed especially if the child was born with an undetected disability. They don't feel it's right that parents aren't given the same choice after birth as they are before birth. The ONLY thing I agree with in this article is that they state there is no difference between killing a baby before birth or after birth.

I feel very strongly about abortion due to in-utero diagnosis. I have heard so many stories of a diagnosis given in-utero, along with advice to terminate the pregnancy. When the family chose to go ahead with the pregnancy, their child was then born absolutely fine. How many times are mistakes like these made?

As some of you may know, (especially from my signature), both of my daughters have heart defects. Olivia is 14 and has a very minor defect. Maddy is 10 and has a very serious and life-threatening defect. We didn't know before either of them were born. Maddy was 9 days old before she almost died and was diagnosed. However, many times, babies with this defect are detected through ultrasound. Parents are given the choice to go through with the pregnancy and have their baby face immediate open heart surgery along with others further down the road, or the option to terminate.

Years ago, a woman came to an on-line support group for heart parents that I was a member of. She was pregnant and her unborn daughter had been given the same diagnosis as my daughter, Madalyn. She was trying to decide whether to go through with the pregnancy or terminate. We shared stories of our children with her. We assured her she was strong enough to handle what would come. We told her these children are amazing and she would love her daughter. She chose abortion and it just about destroyed me. To me, and many others, she had made a judgment not just on her child, but on our children, and decided they were not worthy to live. It breaks my heart that there are parents out there struggling with these decisions - many of them made on out-dated medical advice given to them by their OB.

Sorry this is a bit off-topic, but I wanted to share my experiences and what shapes my viewpoint and also hear what people feel about the article I linked.

Barbara


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## Sonya (Aug 5, 2012)

Another thing to think about is that it is proven that while taking bc pills, etc....an egg still can be fertilized, however it has trouble attaching to the uterus because of the pill, iud, ring, etc... which some believe is the same as an abortion...the egg has been fertilized, so therefore is it considered a life? The morning after pill is basically the same as your average bc pill but in higher dosage and prohibits the fertilized egg from attaching to the uterus. So when does life actually begin....if you are against abortion are you also against the pill? Just something to ponder.


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## CharlesFamily (Aug 5, 2012)

Sonya,

I am not against birth control nor am I against the morning after pill - mostly because I don't consider it a viable pregnancy until the cells attach to the uterine wall and begin to grow. Both of those things prevent that. I guess some would consider that "splitting hairs." But a mass of microscopic cells is different to me than a baby who moves, reacts, has a heartbeat and feels pain.

Barbara


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## wade3504 (Aug 5, 2012)

I believe that women have the right to choose an abortion for any reason. I learned something about my parents though. They are supposedly totally against abortion for any reason and one of the reasons they wouldn't vote for Obama is because he was, in their words, a "baby killer". I asked them what they meant by this and they said that he was for abortion and I laughed. I laughed because I have had major health problems, ok well I still do, anyway, they would have been perfectly ok with me having an abortion if i had ever gotten pregnant. Now I wouldn't have because I don't believe in abortion but that is my belief but they would have been behind me 100% if I had. It would have been a major risk to my health along with that of the baby. They had nothing to say when I said that-my mother's mouth just hung open.

So, to them it is ok if a woman they don't know gets raped or is a victim of incest because it's a child but when it's knocking at their own door then having the child is not OK.

Just another example like the OP where there are those who are Ok with abortions under certain circumstances and if you are ok for women to have abortions because of rape and only because of rape or incest do you know how many women will be coming forward saying they were raped in order to have one? That just doesn't make sense.


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## Sonya (Aug 5, 2012)

For the record, I am not 'against' abortion....as someone else mentioned, I don't like to see it used as a form of bc. I try my best to not judge others, but honestly have a hard time not judging a woman who told me she had 4 abortions, all the while laughing, and saying the worst part is coming up with the money. I would hate to see abortions illegal again and women being masacred behind closed doors. While I don't want the option gone for others (especially for rape, incest, health reasons), I sure wish when people said pro-choice it meant more along the lines of choosing the right decision BEFORE having sex, not having to make a much more difficult one after.


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## vickie gee (Aug 5, 2012)

Matt, You are getting some interesting replies. I find the perspectives, opinions, and personal experiences interesting.

So how many _reasons_ do you have so far?


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## Sonya (Aug 5, 2012)

I guess I technically didn't give my reasons Vickie, just my thought. I am against late term abortions because a fetus can live outside the womb at that point. I am not against early term abortions because that option needs to be available to victims of rape, incest, and those with health problems. I am against abortions for bc....but there is no way to enforce that, so it has to be available to all.


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## vickie gee (Aug 5, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Matt, You are getting some interesting replies. I find the perspectives, opinions, and personal experiences interesting.
> 
> So how many _reasons_ do you have so far?


edit to say reasons for a rape victim (but still interested in all the responses)


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## Sonya (Aug 5, 2012)

I will chime in and say there are roughly 33,000+ pregnancies a year in the U.S. from reported forcible rapes (so many rapes go unreported)....that number right there is enough to make my mind up, yes the option of abortion should be available to them. I would not want to look 33,000 women in the eye who have been brutily attacked, beaten, raped, and tell them that they have to carry the scum vile of the earth's fetus in their body. If they choose to carry, their choice, but there definately needs to be the option available to them...scars of rape last a lifetime, not just 9 months.


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## maestoso (Aug 6, 2012)

For those of you who feel like its OK as the result of rape but not OK for unplanned pregnancies... It sounds like you are justifying your "for" or "against" circumstances as a matter of responsibility, not a matter of morality. That's completely OK. I just get annoyed when people claim that they are against it because it is killing a baby who had no fault in it's own creation and has a soul and deserves to live. If you believe that it is true of a baby no matter how it was created. I respect beliefs and opinions as long as they are justified in a way that makes sense and doesn't include hypocrisy OR the person owns their lack of justification and/or inconsistencies.

I'm all about responsibility, and I don't think the option to have an abortion is an excuse for women AND men to be irresponsible. And when a woman has an abortion because of an unplanned pregnancy, it was absolutely a matter of irresponsibility on both her and her partners part.

I feel sorry for any woman having endured rape, nobody deserves that, but I think that the well being of the baby takes priority no matter what the circumstances.


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## vickie gee (Aug 6, 2012)

Maesto (Matt), Just want to say "you did good" in the way you posed the food for thought here. I understand that you were trying to make a comparison.

So right now it would appear that gay people have more rights than a fetus of a rape. I am not judging any of the replies. As expected, you did not get a lot on a rather sensitive issue. So many belong to a family that has been faced with an unplanned pregnancy of one of its members. Possibly even a rape of one whether or not it resulted in a pregnancy would cause one to avoid response.

The reasons that I picked out were incest, health of the mom being endangered, maybe more. I was thinking of pregnant little girls, it happens to ones so young they don't even know where babies come from. The most popular reason is that it reminds the victim of the vile act that was done on them, understandably (rape). Trust me, they will have reminders all of the rest of their life regardless.

Bottom line (imho) is that we Americans, all of us, have freedom of speech. I hope we get to keep that. I feel that in our lifetime that could be taken away from us, even freedom of thought if we become like some of the other countries that have no Bill of Rights.

Sending you a sincere {{hug}} for your efforts. An inquiring mind is a good mind sometimes.


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## Ashley (Aug 6, 2012)

In the case of a mother having an abortion after being rape, could in some cases be the best thing for the baby..................You need to be able to see the psychological side of things to understand this. An honestly unless you study the mind and get an education on things like this one will never really understand.


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## Marty (Aug 6, 2012)

x


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## maestoso (Aug 6, 2012)

Ashley, my response to your circumstance (which so many like to bring up) is always the same. There are a billion couples out there wanting to adopt. Then the argument is always this... "You don't know what it's like to carry a baby and then have to give it up." My response again is the same. Yes, I am sure it is hard and would not wish it on anyway, but one should sacrifice the disadvantages of themselves and put the baby first.


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## countrymini (Aug 7, 2012)

Interesting thread. I've found human beings are fickle (including myself ) and can feel very strongly against something while its not happening in their life, but when it happens to a family member of loved one you can do a total backflip in your views because compassion comes into play.

I don't agree with abortion, for any reason. If the pregnancy is a result of incest, rape etc, the mother is able to give it up for adoption after birth for an approved couple to adopt. If the mother finds that too hard to do then they've obviously grown attached to the little person inside and would be able to raise him/her themselves with help.

I remember a story a few years ago of a mother who was diagnosed with cancer. She was also pregnant. She had a husband and two other children but decided to not have treatment till she'd delivered her baby so it wouldn't have to be aborted. She delivered a healthy baby and started treatment but passed away not long after. Some said this was irresponsible because she already had a family and they needed her more. Its such a brave and sad story but you can't really have an opinion unless you were part of it.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2012)

Because I think it is a life, I do personally think that to cause of the life is not relevant... a life is a life. Because it may have happened by an awful means doesn't mean it is less of a life. If you feel it's a life at conception, I do not see how that belief can change based on terrible circumstances. Beyond tough as it may be, life isn't really supposed to be about easy answers and solutions.


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## Ashley (Aug 7, 2012)

Then I ask, what good was that little life, if the mother can handle it and kills her self either during or after pregnancy? Depression cant be treated during pregnancy, and let me tell you from experiance if you get depression or after pregnancy its much worse then under normal circumstances.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2012)

Because someone may do something evil (for whatever reason) does not negate the validity of a life. A person may choose to infringe upon it, but that doesn't mean it had no importance in the first place.

Also, I have to imagine it would be a small fraction of women who whould choose to keep a baby who resulted from a rape and would then abuse the baby physically or emtionally.

Circumstances may motivate some peole do do wrong, but that does not excuse it or make it par for the course.


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## Sonya (Aug 7, 2012)

Countrymini....your story is the story of my best friend of childhood, we were inseperable for 20 years...I am going to post three links, one is her story thay was presented in the local paper, the next is letters to the editor and then the final is the editors response if anyone wants to read it.

http://old.post-gazette.com/columnists/20021215brianp2.asp

http://old.post-gazette.com/forum/letters/20021222iss1222p2.asp

http://old.post-gazette.com/columnists/20021219brian.asp

I do not know when life actually begins, I do not believe it is the instance that the fertilized egg attaches to the uterus....a fertilized egg can LIVE over a week in the tube before it even attaches to the uterus.

I was a volunteer at a rape crisis center for 3 years (it was not planned parenthood, they only had psychologists there who were also all volunteers). I only did administrative work...answering the phone, etc. I ended up being an ear for alot of women, it was an experience that shaped my view on abortion today...do I think abortion is taking a life? I am still on the fence (except late term abortion)...but I heard horror stories that I can remember word for word today and it was 20 years ago....many of those women had their lives taken away, some never do really recover...I would never want to see a rape victim forced to carry a fetus from a rapist.


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## KanoasDestiny (Aug 7, 2012)

Unless you have been brutally raped, you can never fully understand the hurt, fear, and anger that comes along with it. For women who are then forced into a pregnancy by their attacker, it is the equal to being victimized over and over again. It's bad enough that a knife, gun, or person who resembles the rapist, will always trigger both memories and terror. But then to have to look into the mirror daily and watch a belly as it grows, and remember exactly how that came to be? Rape victims suffer from feelings of belittlement, shame, and helplessness. Many take years to reach the point where they will feel somewhat safe again. It is a terrible thing for them to be asked to nurture a baby inside their body, when truthfully, they may be incapable of taking care of themselves in a healthy manner. There are so many variables that come into account when a woman's body is ripped away from her control. You never know how strong (or weak) you are, until you are placed into an unimaginable situation.


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## Jill (Aug 7, 2012)

My point is that IF you think it's a life, then how does an experience negate the validity of that life? I don't see how it can, no matter how awful. But the key is IF you think it's already a life................


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## countrymini (Aug 7, 2012)

Sonya said:


> Countrymini....your story is the story of my best friend of childhood, we were inseperable for 20 years...I am going to post three links, one is her story thay was presented in the local paper, the next is letters to the editor and then the final is the editors response if anyone wants to read it.





Sonya said:


> Countrymini....your story is the story of my best friend of childhood, we were inseperable for 20 years...I am going to post three links, one is her story thay was presented in the local paper, the next is letters to the editor and then the final is the editors response if anyone wants to read it..


I'm sorry I got that story wrong, I thought it was two children. Also sorry for your loss of a friend








KanoasDestiny said:


> Unless you have been brutally raped, you can never fully understand the hurt, fear, and anger that comes along with it. For women who are then forced into a pregnancy by their attacker, it is the equal to being victimized over and over again. It's bad enough that a knife, gun, or person who resembles the rapist, will always trigger both memories and terror. But then to have to look into the mirror daily and watch a belly as it grows, and remember exactly how that came to be? Rape victims suffer from feelings of belittlement, shame, and helplessness. Many take years to reach the point where they will feel somewhat safe again. It is a terrible thing for them to be asked to nurture a baby inside their body, when truthfully, they may be incapable of taking care of themselves in a healthy manner. There are so many variables that come into account when a woman's body is ripped away from her control. You never know how strong (or weak) you are, until you are placed into an unimaginable situation.


Dont think anybody is saying they shouldn't abort, its more about oppinions of people who think its morally ok to abort for these types of reasons and not for unplanned ones produced from consent. Only a rape victim can say how they feel about it, and it would be wrong to presume they could or couldn't handle it.


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## maestoso (Aug 7, 2012)

I do agree with Jill here. Obviously, if you think abortion is a moral option for a woman, you can justify each circumstance as you may without sounding hypocritical.

But again, there's this pocket of people who will claim that they don't agree with abortion because it's killing a life. THEN they turn around and say EXCEPT on the case of rape. My point, if you believe it's a life, it is. Whether you planned it, were raped, or abducted by aliens and impregnated. No matter what, it's a life. You can't reasonably and soundly claim to be morally against it and then start making a list of exceptions.


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## Mona (Aug 7, 2012)

> Circumstances may motivate some peole do do wrong, but that does not excuse it or make it par for the course.


Jill, to some people, the CHOICE that they make to have an abortion, may not be "wrong" to them, just because it seems wrong to you.


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## Danielle_E. (Aug 8, 2012)

Mona said:


> Jill, to some people, the CHOICE that they make to have an abortion, may not be "wrong" to them, just because it seems wrong to you.


Extremely well said.

Again, this is a no-brainer for me. Unless the issue touches specifically on my person I have no right to judge or tell another woman whether she can have or can't have an abortion. This should be between her doctor, herself and God (if she believes in a higher power). I am not the one who will have to live with the consequences of not having an abortion or having an abortion should they find themselves in such a situation where they are contemplating this choice.

I find it interesting that many who believe that abortion should never be an option, in any case whatsoever, are often the ones that complain about single mothers who become unable, for whatever reason, to be able to provide for their child properly and view that these individuals are a burden on society when they must seek out government run or state run programs in order to be able to raise the child or children. Sometimes an unwanted child becomes a neglected child, a murdered child, etc.


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## Ashley (Aug 10, 2012)

I have to agre with Danielle.


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## Jill (Aug 11, 2012)

Clearly, Mona and Danielle, you didn't follow what my quote was actually in response to, nor did you take it in context.

It was in response to Ashley saying a mother might kill or abuse a CHILD that resulted from rape. My quoted remark was not in fact about abortion.


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## Minimor (Aug 11, 2012)

Matt's comment re: a baby or fetus havibg a soull...when does the soul enter the body? At conception...or birth?

I know someone who was pregnant when she was diagnosed with an aggressive form of cancer. Doctors wanted her to abort the baby and take treatments but she refused. Her baby girl was delivered and then she was treated for her cancer. By then it was too late and she passed away, leaving her husband to raise their family, including that new baby. Husband was very resentful of the baby--he blamed her for his wife's death and could not bring himself to have anything to do with her. Very sad, since his wife had wanted that child to live and sacrificed her own life so that she would. Family raised the baby for the most part.


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