# Opinions needed...



## Field-of-Dreams (Aug 31, 2011)

A friend of mine got a cute unregistered gelding. Supposedly he was harness broken. We got him home and the first night he drove just fine. The second night he exploded and bucked in harness, kicking the cart. Nothing was different from the first night. OK, we decided to go back and start right from scratch, as if he was new- ground driving, round penning, join up. He was fine, did great. Worked him for two months, he was a bit twitchy but did listen. Put him back in the cart, lead him around, she drove while we lead him. He was FINE. Drove him the next night- fireworks. We put a kicking strap on him and made him go again- and he still bucked and kicked. He kicked so hard he bloodied himself. To the point where he lamed himself. Scraped up his cannons and a stifle, just skinned but still...we treated him and yesterday they look a ton better.

Now, when we got him his owner said she drove him all over the place, she said he was six. She had taken him to a trainer/broker to be sold a few weeks before we got him. We picked him up at this trainer's place.

What we have since found out:

1) He's actually four, going by his teeth.

2) The harness that she sent him to the trainer's with and the harness we got with him are not the same harness. It does not fit him so we used my beta-biothane harness, which fit him super well. Fortunately, because I feel a leather harness would have never withstood the beating he gave to this harness.

3) The cart was bent when we picked it up and one tire is different than the other- and it's a pretty new EE cart.

4) He's pretty twitchy on the ground, cringes and shies if people move too fast. Things you think would freak him out don't bother him.

Going by this the only things we can think of is that he had a massive wreck while at the trainer's place- (If you saw the pic she had on the website of him harnessed, it wouldn't surprise me at all)- destroying the first harness and parts of the EE. When I met this "trainer" I didn't like her at all- just a feeling. Don't know why, she was oretty pleasant to talk with. Or the original owner lied and he was not broken in.

So, the way he acted we're pretty sure he's ruined as a driving horse. She's not afraid of him, but she got him TO drive and now it seems impossible. She cannot afford two horses at this time. She's of the mind to sell him, FULL disclosure as a NON driving horse. She paid to have him registered Pinto, and the inspectors LOVED him. He's very cute and built like a QH. He's probably do great in non driving events and would still be a super pet.

Opinions?


----------



## Sandee (Aug 31, 2011)

Only options I see are to sell him ( or get them to take him back) OR get someone with the knowledge and patience to work him from scratch like an unboke horse to see if he can be "fixed". Part of the problem might have been that you didn't give him any time to settle into his new place. Just moving to a new barn can be stressful and most horses I've been around were allowed to just eat and sleep and "get to know the place" before anyone tried to work them.


----------



## disneyhorse (Aug 31, 2011)

Well, to me... horses are a gamble to purchase in the first place, and even more so if "trained."

Before purchasing this driving horse, did she A. harness, hitch, and drive the horse herself at least one or more times? B. get a video of the horse being harnessed, hitched, and driven and doing all of the "things" which she would be doing when driving him?

If not, then it's just buyer beware. Most people don't like to buy a used car without driving it, and it's even better if you can have a mechanic look at the car. Same thing with horses... be sure to ride/drive it yourself and bring a vet and/or trainer out to see the horse, too. In both cases (car and horse) it won't eliminate the possibility of trouble down the road, but it will lessen it.

With a horse, with mental/training/health issues... if you bought it or the horse develops it, all you can do is be the ethical seller and disclose everything you can. If the horse isn't what she wants/needs, then she should sell it and spend the time looking for one that is closer to what she wants/needs.

Sorry to hear the story, but hopefully she'll have better luck next time.

Andrea


----------



## targetsmom (Aug 31, 2011)

I am not sure what kind of opinions you are looking for???

I think that it would not be the first time that someone bought a supposedly well trained driving horse that turned out to have been in a wreck. That certainly sounds like what happened and I think Disneyhorse makes some excellent points. I agree that letting the new guy settle in first would be a good policy, but it sounds like more than that is going on here.

This is a key reason why we want to start with "blank slates" when we train a mini to drive to make sure they haven't had a bad experience. We bought most of our driving horses as weanlings, so we can be pretty confident they were never in a wreck, and we are also pretty sure about the 3 year old we just got. Unfortunately I know people that have minis that have been in wrecks and their minis can't be driven now. One happened (pretty sure of this) before she bought her and the other wreck was with the current owner. I guess she could show him at Pinto shows like these folks do. There are plenty of other classes he could go in.


----------



## georgiegirl (Aug 31, 2011)

Yours is not the first horse that I know of that has done the same exact thing.

The one that I am familiar with was supposed to be driving trained by one of the top trainers.

He went along for awhile and suddenly broke in two, kicking the cart, bucking, running off, turned the cart over and in general was ruined for driving.

My friend spent the next whole winter starting him over from scratch. She did lots of ground driving and all the preliminaries. When she went back to trying to drive him he did the same exact thing.

She conversed with a trainer who handles horses with driving problems. He informed her it would take forever to undo the damage, if it could be undone, at all.

Since she really likes the horse, she found another job for him. He is now a pack horse for hiking in the high country.


----------



## Marsha Cassada (Aug 31, 2011)

I don't think the idea of settling into a new home is the problem. Of course, that is fine to do, but a good driving horse isn't going to go crazy just because he is in a strange place.

I say ask the seller to take him back. If the seller won't, I would move him on; life is too short to work with such a horse. If having a previous wreck is his problem, then why did he have a wreck in the first place?? Sounds as though he is not what she needs.

She'll have to be prepared to take a $$ loss.


----------



## Field-of-Dreams (Aug 31, 2011)

Fortunately, he was NOT expensive.




More $$ was put into getting him registered Pinto than anything else.

She DID have a video of him driving and he was FINE. They were driving all over the place. That's the main reason she decided on him. He looked like a wonderful horse to drive. I just wonder if the video was taken before the wreck...







> I don't think the idea of settling into a new home is the problem. Of course, that is fine to do, but a good driving horse isn't going to go crazy just because he is in a strange place.


I don't think so either. If that were the case then every show horse would have to come in a week early to "adjust".







> I am not sure what kind of opinions you are looking for???


Is this fixable? IMHO, no, at least not by us. Just wanted to see if other experienced drivers agree with me. We are looking at any and all options.


----------



## ironbessflint (Aug 31, 2011)

So was the bent cart with uneven wheels the one she's been driving him with? It sounds a bit more like a pain response to me, since both times he drove well the "first time." I've also seen this with poor harness or saddle fit (Horse will behave beautifully with ill-fitting equipment once. But the next you go to do said activity, even with different equipment, they refuse or act out). If the cart is bend and the wheels uneven, you can bet that's torquing his back at worst, and causing some uneven pressure at best, as it's definitely not going to float in the tugs like that.

Also, in "starting from scratch" what steps did you take between ground driving and hitching? Any pulling on traces or pulling tire or something of that sort? Anything to introduce the weight I mean?

I've dealt with plenty of ruined driving horses, but I've also gone on to drive plenty of horses that wrecked badly or WERE considered ruined. For some reason based on your description, to me this just seems more like some sort of pain response (to cart, harness, weight, or some lameness). And if that's the case, the kicking strap will only treat the symptom, not the root problem. I'd back WAY down, but personally I wouldn't give up just yet.


----------



## Field-of-Dreams (Aug 31, 2011)

No, the cart was repaired before we put him to. We know better than that. Harness is very well made and fitted correctly. Padded, shaped Freedom breast collar. Padded saddle and breeching, too. It's the one I use on my gelding for trail and cross country driving. However, I don't know how well his old harness fit him, since we didn't get it with him. The harness that came with him was brand new, never used. And way too big. That's why we used mine.

We did not do any dragging with him at all. I never really thought of it.

I also wonder if they beat the tar outta him. He's very jumpy sometimes, things you would think he'd ignore make him take hard notice. Even simple things, like dumping feed in his bucket. He KNOWS I'm there, as I talk to Sunny who gets his dinner first then walk over and feed Deuce. And I talk to him as I come over, like asking if he's hungry and stuff like that, so he hears me coming, yet when I reach over the wall he spooks and jumps back. With BIG eyes...and even when I drop his hay over, right after graining him, he spooks.



Yet he saw me coming to the barn and nickers as I come over. Go figure. I have never even raised a hand to him. And he watches me cuddle Sunny every day (side by side paddocks)

We're just frustrated. The video showed him going so well, we had such plans. Her boss has acres we were invited to drive on-I'm talking hundreds of acres. Parades. Fun shows. Pinto shows. Plus, there's a pleasure driving trial, I guess you'd call it, in Sept the week after Nationals we were aiming for. Not a chance now. Not with HIM.



Crazy boy.


----------



## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 1, 2011)

I doubt he's crazy. Sounds to me like someone's been working him over pretty well, he may have had an accident, and now he's got all sorts of anxiety issues! Poor guy. If you don't feel capable of dealing with this or don't want to, by all means move him down the road with full disclosure but make sure it's to someone who is used to dealing with fear issues and wants to work with him. Just like people, horses can get so tangled up in their heads they seem crazy but if you understand where he's coming from I have no doubt he thinks he's got good reasons for his actions. Been there, done that, felt REALLY guilty later for judging my horse too harshly! He was trying so hard to do what I wanted but was drowning in his own soul-deep fear.

Anyway, he may or may not be salvageable as a driving horse but it's going to take a lot of patience and love to get him there. He needs someone who believes in him! You might try talking to an animal communicator you trust and see if you can figure out both what happened and what he's thinking now. Knowledge is power.

Leia


----------



## targetsmom (Sep 1, 2011)

Are you POSITIVE that he hears??? You said he is pinto... so could he be one of those patterns (splash?) that is associated with deafness??? I do know a deaf horse that drives just fine, but that might explain some of these odd issues.


----------



## Field-of-Dreams (Sep 1, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> Are you POSITIVE that he hears??? You said he is pinto... so could he be one of those patterns (splash?) that is associated with deafness??? I do know a deaf horse that drives just fine, but that might explain some of these odd issues.


Positive, no, we aren't... She does talk to him and seems to respond, especially in the round pen. He does not appear to be splash, but without genetic testing of course you can't be sure. I think we may test him tonight and see, even if it's just a bucket of grain.

He does seem anxious sometimes, other times he's just like nothing bothers him. I agree, though- someone somewhere did him wrong.


----------



## Sandee (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm not saying that this is your horse's problem but we bought a 15 yr old gelding for our first horse. He was a been there done that. The first few times we drove him he was fine but the more often we drove the more problems he seemed to have to the point of he begain rearing in the cross ties when I tried to bridle him. As I said it was our first. We found out that the bit was too big; in fact, the entire harness was for a pony since this guy was way overweight. The cart wasn't balanced correctly. I took the weight off; got a harness etc. that "fit" him and he's been a sweetheart ever since. 8 years later my 6yr old granddaughter is now driving him.

If you want the problem to go away quick then sell him. Because the only other fix is a long hard path of retraining and then there's no certainty of the outcome.


----------



## LazyRanch (Sep 1, 2011)

I cannot speak directly to driving horses, but as a rider I toss in this 2 cents:

Working with riding horses I have taken in numerous $1 horses. These are horses that come to me basically for the price of a bullet. They are "ruined/broken/battered" and "trained." In all honesty, I am beginning to see what comes from "trainer" barns for driving minis is not unlike trainer hunter/jumper barns. So, here is one humble opinion:

1) Recheck your harness and its fit, then go over the horse by hand. Check for twitchy spots. If the horse had a wreck, he may have soft or bruised areas you cannot readily see. Run you hands with increasing pressure down his hind legs and "pressure check" his back. Even if your harness (much like a saddle) fits perfectly, HE may have points where pressure bothers him. It sounds like you are on the "check the bit and teeth" routine.

2) I will agree with you this is a touchy subject, and will depend on how much you like the horse, and how much you want to "put into" the horse. My feeling is this: if they lied to you about the age, what other lies are there? Contact the trainer, go to the barn if you can. Ask the trainer directly: "Was there a wreck with this horse - on or off the property?" Since you purchased the horse as trained- to-drive, you can suggest legal action if you feel you have been told an "alternative" story. I have found this to be very effective, and usually gets me the answers. If your bill of sale specifically states the age, and drivability, you have a much better leg to stand on. It will be far more difficult for you to fix something if you have NO idea how it got broken. Before you go to the trainer, decide if you want to keep the horse or not.

3) *IF* you decide to keep the horse, forget about driving it for at least 6 months. Take him out every day, groom, lounge, teach it tricks, let the kids handle it, pony it if possible, take it to shows and let it stand with buddies, stick it in halter classes. Whatever you do with your other horses. If, after a couple months, the horse seems rational and sane, harness it and ground drive it. Take it down the road if he's sane at home. Have someone drive a cart with you, while you drive him on foot. Drive him in a ring and add cones to turn around, do walk, trot, halt transitions, but do it all in exactly the same way you would if a cart is attached, same harness, same routine, etc. I have gone so far as to tie my reprobates up in the arena while working others. Sounds silly, but believe me, they watch, they hear how you handle problems, how you reward.

4) I cannot tell you why 6 months seems to be a key, but it is. I have had horses who, in 5 minutes on cross-ties will be completely lathered and shaking - trainer "fixed" to know cross-ties mean saddling, means beating, well known jumpers who won't step over a rail on the ground, trail horses who will literally hurl themselves to the ground to escape a trail course, an endless list of trainer, and occasional rider, inflicted issues. For some reason 6 months of not doing the thing they were "trained" to do seems to work well for each of them. If the horse seems sane and safe, go back to adding weight to traces, drag stuff behind, all the basic start from scratch basics. Watch for issues; likely you know the routine.

Sometimes it takes less, but if you are not committed to at least 6 months, I would say a full disclosure sale is your better option.

IMHO


----------

