# Bad News on the Fish Front



## Jill (Dec 19, 2009)

Hi, Folks --

H and I have the aquarium bug SO bad. We have a lot of tanks going including some pretty large ones.

On Monday, after asking fish people and the seller about the wisdom of shipping in the holiday season, I ordered 3 "Kirin Parrot Cichlids" which are blood parrot x bonsai flowerhorn super hybrids. They were coming from a reputable seller in CA to me in VA and were sent overnight on Thursday to arrive on Friday.

I sat home all day yesterday waiting for the three Kirins, which were to arrive by 4:30. I called FedEx yesterday and some specialist for them called me back. She was a ditz! She told me they'd call me this morning to let me know if it's possible to get them to me today (but we're in the middle of a blizzard that should continue all day). I told her they might not survive and she said "Okay" all cheerful which made me angry. I said "no, it's not okay. They're living animals and it's not "okay" that they might die because of you all didn't get them here. Plus, they were expensive." I told her what they cost and the shipping and handling. Obviously, though, I am most concerned for the fish.

*sigh*

On one hand, they are "just" fish. On the other hand, these types of fish really approach the level of household pets. Until getting our three "regular" blood parrot cichlids, I would never have thought a fish could be so pet like, but these kind truly are. I feel so sad knowing they're probably (almost surely) going to die.

FedEx will, you better believe, reimburse me for the costs ($140) and I do think the seller has more he will send to me -- after the holidays! Still, it is a total bummer. It looks as if the Kirins are still stuck in Indianapolis, and we are getting, basically, a blizzard which is to continue all day. At the end of it, we'll have up to two feet of snow, which is not typical for VA. As a point of reference, a HUGE state snow plow with a full load just got stuck on our road, blocking both lanes of (non existent) traffic.

Thanks for listening,

Jill

_PS Here's a bad picture of what I was waiting on:_


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures (Dec 19, 2009)

Oh bummer Jill!! What a disappointment, but I feel bad for the fish too.


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## miniwhinny (Dec 19, 2009)

We've ordered livestock many times for our saltwater tanks but we never order anything in the winter months. Even with heat packs it's just not worth the risk should a shipment be delayed. Poor fish


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## Jill (Dec 19, 2009)

Thanks, Kim. I feel very bad for the fish, too. However, some hope as one of the people who has ordered many times through regular mail just told me she got fish 9 days after shipment (!!!) and they arrived alive. So I was happy to hear there is some hope after all.



miniwhinny said:


> We've ordered livestock many times for our saltwater tanks but we never order anything in the winter months. Even with heat packs it's just not worth the risk should a shipment be delayed. Poor fish


Miniwhinny, I actually opened the topic of shipping this time of year up on a forum like this, but for fish. The experts all said it should be fine. Additionally, I've had two other shipments of fish that went well in cooler months -- and those were shipped via USPS Priority (2-3 day). These fish were to come Overnight. As you know if you've ordered tropical fish, they come in a cooler and with heat packs. But thanks for sharing an opinion.


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## Sterling (Dec 19, 2009)

I hope your fish arrive all ok and safe Jill. Hearing how much you love these little critters has given me the interest in getting one one day soon.


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Dec 19, 2009)

Oh Jill, I'm so sorry.



Hopefully they will be ok. Yes, we do fall in love with these guys. years ago, I had an oscar that I raised from a tiny baby. I could put my hand in the tank, he would come over and rub up against my fingers. The neighbors would come over and watch him take food from my hand. He got to be almost a foot long, and one morning I woke up and he was dead infront of the tv. Yes, there was a cover on the tank too. He must have flopped about 35 feet from the tank. I was devistated..... Anyway, lets hope and say a prayer, your new babies will be just fine. Let us know!


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## Katiean (Dec 19, 2009)

If your area gets their panties all tied in a knot like they do around here when it snows (we still have snow from almost 2 weeks ago(not the norm for hear either)) They will never get out to you. Sorry. I do hope for the fish sake they do at least attempt it.


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 19, 2009)

Jill said:


> I actually opened the topic of shipping this time of year up on a forum like this, but for fish. The experts all said it should be fine. Additionally, I've had two other shipments of fish that went well in cooler months -- and those were shipped via USPS Priority (2-3 day). These fish were to come Overnight. As you know if you've ordered tropical fish, they come in a cooler and with heat packs. But thanks for sharing an opinion.


Jill, I did not take part in that topic but I had salt water tanks for YEARS until recently. Of course fish are shipped in the colder months. How do you (and I don't mean you personally Jill) think that pet stores and aquarium supply wholesalers get their inventory? Yes, fish are going to be lost in shipment and some will die but that would happen in the hotter months as well. I am very good friends with a salt water supplier and it is just the nature of the beast.

I am sorry there was a mix up. It happened to me too. It all turned out OK though.


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## Jill (Dec 19, 2009)

Thanks, ladies!

FedEx did not call me this morning as they said they would -- not that I'm surprised. I had said the fish were stopped in Indiana but I was mixed up. It appears when I look at their tracking site, they have been stuck in TN (but were in Indiana for a short time).

And, yes, of course fish are shipped in cold weather. They don't swim to the fish stores









( ( (_ thanks, Carol _



) ) )

I hope mine will be alive when they arrive. I think it all hinges on how long the heat packs will last and how warm the FedEx facility is. I haven't heard from the seller who may not keep business hours on the weekend. Poor fish. I really hope they will make it.

Jill


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## miniwhinny (Dec 19, 2009)

Of course fish are shipped in cold weather - all the time to LFS's. It just prudent if you know there's extremely harsh conditions to wait until it passes. The good thing in their favor is that they are freshwater and not salt...they can tolerate way worse conditions...it's not just the temperature but the lack of oxygen in the water. Freshwater fish can take huge swings in conditions compared to saltwater.


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## Jill (Dec 20, 2009)

No real news on the Kirin Parrot Fish front. Hoping they get here tomorrow, and that they will be alive. The seller seems to think it's likely. And he does have more I think... Still, I am routing for these guys to be okay.

Some GOOD fish news did happen today, though. I bought a "new" tank on eBay. We've been wanting another 75g (last new big tank) but it hasn't been easy to find a stand we like. We have a gorgeous one under our current 75g, but couldn't find anything that would work with our style of furniture, etc., in the stores. Last night, I saw this tank (below) on eBay and it is really pretty. I decided to bid and got it for $405 (less than I was willing to spend). PLUS the seller is deliverying it to us for free tomorrow around 4pm. Yay!!! It will be the home to our existing fancy goldfish, who currently live in a 55g tank (we're then getting a short bodied flowerhorn for the 55g the goldfish are currently in). The tank comes with heaters, nets, HOB filters, powerhead, decorations, and lots of testing and chemical supplies. Not sure how much (if any) of the stuff I'll use beyond the tank, stand and canopy but those things were worth more than the price to me. And, I already ordered the filters I want on it (used to them and like them... plus I can pull the Super Cartridge / Cell Pore (non-consumable) filters out of existing tanks to cycle the new one instantly):


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## susanne (Dec 20, 2009)

I'm so sorry you and your fish are going through this, Jill -- there's no question that fish truly become beloved pets, and anyone with half a brain and half a heart would ache to hear of any creature suffering.

The FedEx airhead needs a lesson in public relations! The FedEx trucks were, along with a number of big trucks, refused passage through the Columbia River Gorge due to freezing rain last week. They interviewed one FedEx trucker, who said he was sick thinking of kids who might not get their Christmas presents. Whether or not he was totally sincere, it gave a warmer, fuzzier feeling about FedEx than your experience!

I do find it interesting that, while virtually all nurseries refuse to ship sensitive plants in times of extreme cold or heat, the fish supply companies find nothing wrong with it.

I think I'd be angry with them as well as with FedEX.


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Dec 20, 2009)

Jill the new tank is GORGEOUS!!!! You could probably e-bay back the stuff you wont use! I'm praying the fish make is safe to you tomorrow, and I will be checking this thread every minute!!!


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## Jill (Dec 20, 2009)

Thanks, ladies







susanne said:


> I do find it interesting that, while virtually all nurseries refuse to ship sensitive plants in times of extreme cold or heat, the fish supply companies find nothing wrong with it.I think I'd be angry with them as well as with FedEX.


I think it's because the fish are easier to put into breather bags, coolers and keep warm w/ heater packs. The plants are probably actually more fragile and less "packable". I know it sounds extreme, but it actually happens every day that fish are shipped through the mail or by couriers. There is even a site like eBay but for fish (Aquabid.com). Who knew?!?!


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## Maxi'sMinis (Dec 20, 2009)

Jill I'm pullin for ya. Hope your new scaly friends make it to you safe and sound.


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## Mona (Dec 20, 2009)

Here's hoping your fish, even though late, will make it to you ALIVE!!


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## Jill (Dec 21, 2009)

Thanks, Ladies. The FedEx site now shows the fish are in Richmond -- So I'm guessing they will arrive here today. Sure hope they are okay!!!!


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Dec 21, 2009)

Jeepers, what a nightmare! Can't wait for them to arrive and safe!!!


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## WhiteTailsMinis (Dec 21, 2009)

'tis the season so this just has to have a happy ending!

Nice new setup too - I say you defiitely have the "bug" ..... very impresssive - your new fish hobby has totally taken off! LOL

Merry Christmas!


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## Sterling (Dec 21, 2009)

Ok we're all sitting on pins and needles....Jill keep us updated. I hope the little darlings arrive all well and rested.


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Dec 21, 2009)

Come on Fedex, STEP ON IT!!!!!!!


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## Jill (Dec 21, 2009)

Oh My God -- Fed ******* Ex.

All day long, since 8:30 this morning, the status screen for FedEx read that the fish were on their truck for delivery. I've been here all day on the look out.

Just now checked the FedEx website to see it reads "Delivery Exception, Delayed Beyond Our Control". So does this mean they're not coming this evening? or that it will be late this evening? I'm betting it means they took them back to the local distribution center parking lot where they sit on the truck all night. If they aren't already dead.............

I'm too disgusted to even know what to say at this point.


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Dec 21, 2009)

You ABSOLUTELY have to be KIDDING????????

















I'm so sorry for you. Fedex should be


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## Maxi'sMinis (Dec 21, 2009)

I am so sorry your delivery didn't make it today. I so hope it come 1st thing in the morning.

I ship animals all the time and use World Courier, they have a special live animal shipping department that are very responsive and you can request specific delivery and pick up times and they make the live shipments a priority. You might look into them for your next shipment.


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Dec 21, 2009)

Jill, have you gotten to talk to anyone about exactly what the heck is going on? Are they at a place close enough that you can go pick them up? Just trying to make suggestions. I would without a doubt, find out what the heck happened today! Did their truck break down?? I know you are livid as I would be. How stinking lousy this is for you....


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## Katiean (Dec 22, 2009)

That reminds me of when I shipped a dog from Salt Lake City, Utah to Reno, Nevada. I went to Delta Cargo to pick her up at the time I was supposed to. They said they didn't have her in cargo check with baggage. I drive all the way across the airport to baggage. They don't have her. Check with cargo. I drive all the way back to cargo. Now by this time I am concerned for the dog. I go into cargo. I tell them the flight she was on (I talked to the person shipping the dog) and who she was shipping her. They check the computer. Nope, don't have her. Now by this time I am remembering the time I went Salt Lake to Sacramento and my bags went to NY. By this time I am not really the "Nicest" customer. I told the guy he had better get off his butt and find my dog. At that moment the guy comes leaping over the counter at me. I happened to have my cell phone in my hand and dialed 911. He backed off. I then called Delta. I told him in front of the person at the counter that I expected my dog as she would not be able to be just left in a stack of boxes or baggage. I also told them that their counter person fell short of attacking me and I had to call 911. After about 30 minuets more of standing there waiting (about a 2 hour ordeal trying to find the dog) (she had been in Reno 3-4 hours by this time) they told me if I were to go back to baggage claim they would have her at "LOST BAGGAGE". You just don't do this with living, breathing, feeling animals. Poor thing had been in a very tiny create (should have been the next size up at least) for about 8 hours. But then in retrospect, and I didn't think of this at the time, she was used to being in a very tiny create for about 23 hours out of the day.


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## Jill (Dec 22, 2009)

I talked to FedEx on Friday, Saturday and yesterday evening but at that point when they confirmed the fish had gone back with the truck to the local distribution center, I was too p*ssed off to ask anything about what do I do about reimbursement because the live fish were to be delivered by "priority overnight" on Friday and are more than likely now dead. The seller has to file a claim. Hope he does... I am sure he will and he needs to get me some Kirin Parrot hybrids after the holidays. I'd told him before any of this that I planned to purchase a short body flowerhorn (fairly expensive fish) from him after I had enough seeded media to cycle a new tank. So, there's a little more incentive for him to do the right thing. Really disgusted. My gut instinct was not to have the fish shipped during the holidays (the weather should be a non-issue w/ packing and heat packs), but both the fish forum members and the seller assured me FedEx would do a good job. I know I send overnight documents for clients nearly every day of the week and I use UPS because FedEx had messed somethings up years ago. I haven't shipped anything important that I originate with anyone other than UPS who ALWAYS does a good job. grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr


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## luv2ridesaddleseat (Dec 22, 2009)

Unreal...


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## HGFarm (Dec 23, 2009)

Oh no!!! I sure hope they dont leave them ON THE TRUCK in freezing weather over night do they??!! Any chance they might have for survival would surely be gone by then!!



This is ridiculous! I understand weather problems, but if you have LIVE stuff sitting there, wouldnt that have priority of being delivered over a box of sweaters or fruit cake?!!!

Sounds like they are at a local office.... I would go pick them up if you possibly can, and open the box right there in front of them!! Of course this doesnt mean they are going to survive the trauma once you get them home..............


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## Jill (Dec 23, 2009)

It's not good news.

FedEx did get them to me via a Enterprise Rental Van yesterday.

Fish looked like they died quite some time ago and were in slushy ice water.

Seller doesn't seem to want to file a claim w/ FedEx -- though the intial delay pre-dated any bad weather, and the fish spent all day Monday on the truck but the driver didn't have time to deliver -- this is per FedEx themselves. The seller's idea was to give me $10 off each of three future fish (making the cost $15/fish vs. $25 fish). I spent $75/fish and $65/shipping handling (priority overnight via FedEx). I also spent 3 days home waiting on dead fish. Yeah... I do not think a $30 store credit when I'm out of pocket $140 is at all acceptable. I told the seller that he needs to file the claim with FedEx and do better than the current "offer". I also reminded him that my first inquiry to him was if he thought it was safe / okay to ship fish this time of year (holidays) and in the cold weather.

SO TICKED OFF!!!!

And, also, you don't want to know what the website instructions required to document DOA arrival. Disgusting.


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## Gini (Dec 23, 2009)

Jill was the box labeled live fish or anything like that? I have a reason for asking.


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## Jill (Dec 23, 2009)

It was labeled "Live Fish" "Keep Warm"


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm sorry Jill. Sorry for the fish. Sorry for all the time you wasted. Sorry that people some people are just to da** lazy to do their jobs. And sorry that you have to fight to get a claim in order. It's a shame you just cannot rely on people to just be fair anymore. It's ALWAYS someone else's fault!


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## Mona (Dec 23, 2009)

Well that just SUCKS! Hopefully you can get some sort of compensation showhow!!


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## miniwhinny (Dec 23, 2009)

I'm so sorry that the fish paid the ultimate price for being shipped during a blizzard. Fish are cold blooded animals and can't maintain their body temperature themselves. Heat packs and insulation can only last a limited time before the temperature drops in their shipping container. In temperatures like that it only takes a few hours delay to cause a fatal drop in temperature.

I know you want to get angry at someone for this but I don't think placing the blame totally on the seller or FedEx is totally the right thing to do. I think this lesson sadly should be marked down to live and learn. They were ordered to be shipped on Thursday for delivery on Friday. I'm way over in Oregon and we had warnings of the East coast blizzard and expected travel delays all over our news for days before that. No one should have told you it was okay to ship during such a bad snow storm.

I really am sorry for the fish being lost.

I'm sorry that both you and especially the fish learned this lesson the hard way


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## Sterling (Dec 23, 2009)

Ohhhh I'm so sorry for this bad news!!! I was hoping that maybe at the least they were a bit woozy and you were able to bring them around. That's so sad. I feel your frustration all the way around.

This person has a website? Would you mind PM-ing it to me. I need to make sure if I do any business online where fish are involved, I'll know who to steer clear from.


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## KanoasDestiny (Dec 23, 2009)

Oh Jill, how horrible. I kept hoping for a good ending...the poor little things. I'd be really upset and I wouldn't do business with the seller again. Not only does this show his lack of concern for his customer, but it shows he doesn't care much about his fish either. If they had been fish that I had sold, I would have been filing a claim the day they hadn't shown up. I used to work for a mail service company and I can't begin to explain how upset people would get when they paid for next day service (not cheap) and something would happen where the package didn't arrive on time. I did several refunds through UPS and FedEx, never anything alive though. So sad.


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## HGFarm (Dec 23, 2009)

I also would further push this either for a refund or new fish or something. He should file his claim with Fed Ex. That is not right. We have seen merchants in the past file a claim, get paid by the shipper, but not make it right with the buyer. They pocket the money for it all and still charge the buyer for more, like this guy is doing. Double dipping.....

I am so sad, I too was hoping for a better ending and that also proves that Fed Ex left them OUT and did NOT read the box, or the instructions. That is sickening that knowing there was live stuff there- I dont care if it's 'just fish' - and no one cared enough to even bring them in off the truck!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It wouldnt be any different if they were shipped in the heat of summer and left there!!! That is WRONG


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## LittleRibbie (Dec 23, 2009)

Jill Im so sorry about your little fish, what a shame. My ?? is.....I thought all Fed.Ex packages are automatically insured for something...then you pay for additional coverage if needed. Seems alittle odd that he is saying that he doesnt want to file a claim. Whos to say he does file a claim and keeps the insurance $$ AND the $$ you gave him for live fish.

Sounds alittle "fishy" to me.

I cant understand how people stay in business sometimes.....customer relations......does this persom realize that you potentially could spend lots of $$ with him....a life time customer and he's willing to just walk away from that.





I hope you straighten his ask out!!

Heidi


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## Vertical Limit (Dec 23, 2009)

LittleRibbie said:


> I cant understand how people stay in business sometimes.....customer relations......does this persom realize that you potentially could spend lots of $$ with him....a life time customer and he's willing to just walk away from that.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Exactly what I was thinking. Poor customer relations in this economy is just unbelievably stupid to me! And I agree......the whole thing is "fishy" to me too. It just doesn't make sense.


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## gimp (Dec 23, 2009)

You didn't pay via PayPal did you?

I was really hoping that this would turn out good. Sad.


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## topnotchminis (Dec 23, 2009)

So sorry about your fish and the situation.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 23, 2009)

Being i am a fish lover myself and having numerous tanks I feel for you. I have had fish shipped in as far as from Thailand, yes you read me right Thailand and had the fish arrive quickly and safely and I am in Canada. Now having said that I have never tried having them shipped in winter though. Perhaps you should rethink and try only shipping in the spring, summer or fall. I do think the seller absolutely SHOULD and MUST put a claim in to FedEx. I know if any of my exotic ssiamese fighting fish would have arrived dead the shipper stated that he/she would put in a claim for the loss. Jill, if the seller won't then I hope their is a forum where you can let others know that this seller is not one to buy from, end of story. I am so sorry.


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## Bess Kelly (Dec 23, 2009)

Did you pay by credit card? If so, file a claim with them and advise situation. Generally they will just zap the money out of the account and THEN wait for a decision.


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## Jill (Dec 24, 2009)

Thank you, ladies.

I paid with PayPal, and I am pressing the seller to file the claim with FedEx. I'm also trying to "balance" how ticked off I let myself get because about the most upset I get is when someone doesn't do right by me regardless of the monetary amount. I do business "right" and expect to be treated the same. You wouldn't believe how upset I got about 5 years ago over a $3 purchase... Just not healthy to get to worked up so I'm not going to do much about it until Monday, when I will see if the seller filed the claim and if he did not, I will see about filing the claim both with FedEx and PayPal. I will also leave negative feedback on Aquabid.com. I will keep pursuing it and am very disgusted with both the seller and FedEx. I would imagine there's going to be a resolution to this that has me not out of pocket. I will not be making further purchases with this seller regardless of the turn out because that initial offer of $30/credit out of $140 spent is asinine. Too bad for him because I was planning to purchase the flowerhorn through him but will find a different dealer for sure.

And, Miniwhinny, just as so many times in the past, I find your expressed opinions to make little sense unless the intention is to instigate an argument.


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## Danielle_E. (Dec 24, 2009)

I am glad you are going to pursue it, I know I would no matter what the amount was for. I also have purchased fish in the past from aquabid.com from a seller from Thailand and have never had the problems you are having with a seller much closer. Stick to your guns so to speak. Let us know the outcome and good idea about leaving the negative comment about the seller should you need to do so.


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## Kendra (Dec 24, 2009)

At my job we get lots of semen shipments via FedEx, and they do sometimes get hung up in Memphis, miss a flight or whatever. FedEx is really good about refunding us shipping costs when this happens. We usually just tell them to return the box to the sender, since the semen is dead already, and as much as it's a huge inconvenience, especially if the mare ovulates before we can get a fresh shipment, getting the shipping charges refunded is pretty simple.

So sorry to hear about the fish, I was hoping for a better outcome for you.


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## HGFarm (Dec 24, 2009)

You have a very limited time to dispute through Paypal... I would go ahead and open one before it is too late with the details you have told here.... and that they refuse to open a claim with FedEx. When I had a dispute, Paypal refunded ALL of my money very quickly!! Even if you open a dispute through them, and the seller then makes it right, you can always ask that the claim be closed at any time. But I would not until you have money in hand!!


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## minie812 (Dec 24, 2009)

Had the same thing happen on an item I bought thru Ebay and filed a claim immediately as they would not respond to my several emails. They had turned in a claim and were trying to keep my money as well as file a claim and get that alsos o needless to say the



hit the fan and I not only got my money back but a replacement at no charge



Sad for the little fishys though


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## Jill (Dec 24, 2009)

I had heard w/ PayPal, all the seller has to "prove" is that they sent the item. Anyone know if this is true? I have done PayPal claims before and gotten my money back.

This store does offer a refund if the fish are ordered next day (these were, though they didn't arrive then) and if you take photographic proof soon after arrival (we did). Surely FedEx would refund the shipping costs, but not sure about the PayPal issue since the seller can probably prove he did send me the fish.

Really ticks me off that he made such a lowball offer like it would be acceptable.


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## HGFarm (Dec 24, 2009)

Yes, especially when there may be a chance he is pocketing his refund from the shipper. I had excellent luck with Paypal... I would try it Jill anyway and who knows, you could get a refund.....


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## Jill (Dec 24, 2009)

You know, it had not even crossed my mind that he might be pocketting a FedEx claim!!!! (duh! Jill!). I just opened a dispute on PayPal. At least, too, now that I did something about it, I won't keep brooding too much. It really makes me angry when people don't hold up their end of a business deal...


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Dec 24, 2009)

Jill, I didnt have time to read thru all the posts so maybe you already answered this. Did you take pictures BEFORE you ever opened the bag of dead fish?? I have ordered alot of fish also, and some have been ordered thru Aquabid. I do know that most of the fish dealers on there do mention about pictures BEFORE the bag is ever opened. I know your fishies were dead, but still if you took pics it just might be helpful. Either way, I hope you get refunded all your money. I dont order fish in winter, only spring and fall. In summer it just seems to get too hot and winter too cold.


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