# Silver Bay VS Liver Chestnut



## JAX (Dec 9, 2011)

OK guys I am curious. First of all I am not talking about the Silver Bays that look like a Sorrel with Flaxen mane and tail, Im talking about the ones that look Bay but with silver mixed in. Can someone show me a Liver Chestnut that actually tested genetically to be a Chestnut? Most I am finding are testing to actually be Silver Bays so would love to see some that are not.

Also I understand that silver is not supposed to show on a red base but am wondering if the Isabella(?) Palaminos are actually Palaminos with a Silver gene and it is maybe affecting the color even though it supposedly doesn't. ???




Has anyone else wondered about this?


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## ohmt (Dec 9, 2011)

Silver doesn't show on any red based horses. 'Isabella' palomino is just a different shade, like there are different shades of chestnut, bay, buckskin, etc. I don't like the term liver chestnut either. Most 'liver chestnuts' that I have seen were actually silver smokey black. Melinda Jackson on here has a mare, Mars Rosebud, that is a very dark chestnut appaloosa. The appy is what gives her the odd color. Her dam was the strange dark chestnut as well. If you go to her website (google Maple Hollow Miniatures) you will see her on the mares page.


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## Eagle (Dec 9, 2011)

This girl hasn't been tested but i think she is liver chestnut appy, her mane is brown. What do you think?


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## ohmt (Dec 9, 2011)

She is a bay appaloosa


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## Jill (Dec 9, 2011)

This isn't a color you discribe but I wanted to put this picture here because I know some people describe this color as liver chestnut, but in fact, the color on Destiny (below) is smokey silver black. Just for educational purposes


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## Eagle (Dec 9, 2011)

thanks Jill





What about my sons driving pony:


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 9, 2011)

Eagle said:


> This girl hasn't been tested but i think she is liver chestnut appy, her mane is brown. What do you think?


I would say bay appy as well. More then likely her mane and tail is brown because of being sun bleached.

Here is my liver chestnut. When he was born he was a bright red Chestnut color but then he grew out to be darker. But thats why his name is Red. His mane and tail is lighter because of being sun bleached but the underside of his mane is darker, but I personally like his lighter.


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## Jill (Dec 9, 2011)

Eagle said:


> This girl hasn't been tested but i think she is liver chestnut appy, her mane is brown. What do you think?


To me, this horse looks "wild bay" with possibly sabino "roaning" (not to be confused with true roan). I've had a bay horse with white in the mane and tail, and thought in the case of the horse I owned, it was due to sabino. I don't think white strands are an indication of liver chestnut.


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 9, 2011)

Eagle said:


> thanks Jill
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I like him, he is very pretty. I would call him a sorrel.


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## Jill (Dec 9, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> I like him, he is very pretty. I would call him a sorrel.


I agree with Jamie on this one


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Dec 9, 2011)

ohmt said:


> Silver doesn't show on any red based horses. 'Isabella' palomino is just a different shade, like there are different shades of chestnut, bay, buckskin, etc. I don't like the term liver chestnut either. Most 'liver chestnuts' that I have seen were actually silver smokey black. Melinda Jackson on here has a mare, Mars Rosebud, that is a very dark chestnut appaloosa. The appy is what gives her the odd color. Her dam was the strange dark chestnut as well. If you go to her website (google Maple Hollow Miniatures) you will see her on the mares page.



Here is Mars Rosebud, sorry for the photo quality as most of the time I was actually photographing her foals and just got some of her in the process! She is my "Liver Chestnut" Appaloosa mare, she develops more and more white hairs every year.


























and her daughter Maple Hollows Bodacious Babe who is a "Liver Chestnut" Pintaloosa. She was born very bright sorrel and shed off to be the gorgeous chocolate color!


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## ohmt (Dec 9, 2011)

And this is a terrible picture with mud and clutter everywhere, but here is Mars' dam:






This is her coming out of winter so she is lighter. She was close to Mars' shade in summer. Mars was born a bright red chestnut and when we sold her at 3-4 years she was still a bright red chestnut, no appy


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## Eagle (Dec 9, 2011)

Jill said:


> To me, this horse looks "wild bay" with possibly sabino "roaning" (not to be confused with true roan). I've had a bay horse with white in the mane and tail, and thought in the case of the horse I owned, it was due to sabino. I don't think white strands are an indication of liver chestnut.






Wild bay kind of goes with her "wild" character



I think her white is due to the Appy because when I bought her 4 years ago she was solid with no white in her tail or on her body, now she gets more white each year.


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## RescueMini (Dec 9, 2011)

What would you guys call my rescue mini? There has been much debate about it. I have always said that she is sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail, even though the rescue called her a palomino. She just doesn't have that golden color to her and is more coppery. I'm from an AQHA background, so that's just what I am used to calling horses of her color. And wow, I would have thought that the smokey black was a chestnut! I guess I still have a lot to lean about silver.


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## chandab (Dec 9, 2011)

RescueMini said:


> What would you guys call my rescue mini? There has been much debate about it. I have always said that she is sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail, even though the rescue called her a palomino. She just doesn't have that golden color to her and is more coppery. I'm from an AQHA background, so that's just what I am used to calling horses of her color. And wow, I would have thought that the smokey black was a chestnut! I guess I still have a lot to lean about silver.


The two pictures are kind of small and the one dark, but I'd say your girl is silver bay, she looks a bit like my silver bay mare, Tana.


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## cretahillsgal (Dec 9, 2011)

Just curious... has Mars Rosebud and/or her dam been color tested?


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## RescueMini (Dec 9, 2011)

chandab said:


> The two pictures are kind of small and the one dark, but I'd say your girl is silver bay, she looks a bit like my silver bay mare, Tana.


I'll see if I can find some better pictures. Flickr isn't cooperating right now. I honestly would have never thought of her being a silver bay! And beautiful horses everyone. It's amazing to see how much their color changed.


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Dec 9, 2011)

Mars has not been color tested.

Here is our other Chestnut mare, Dusty Lane Commanders Red Bird, that is a shade more "red" than Mars but still too dark for me to consider her a sorrel.


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 9, 2011)

RescueMini said:


> What would you guys call my rescue mini? There has been much debate about it. I have always said that she is sorrel with a flaxen mane and tail, even though the rescue called her a palomino. She just doesn't have that golden color to her and is more coppery. I'm from an AQHA background, so that's just what I am used to calling horses of her color. And wow, I would have thought that the smokey black was a chestnut! I guess I still have a lot to lean about silver.


I personally wouldn't call her a sorrel, its hard to tell in the pics but I had a mare that I thought was a palomino but turned out she was a silver bay. Do you have any better pics that you can see her legs better? Right now I'll say silver bay or palomino.


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## ohmt (Dec 9, 2011)

Melinda-Mars is definitely just 'red' with nothing else but appy going on. Rosalee was tested for red/black and silver (FWF Little Red Ranger was a silver carrier) and came back as silver neg and chestnut. I believe her roan and sabino genes gave her the 'off' color and Mars' appy gene gives her hers. Most of my chestnut mares are about the shade of your other mare. I use chestnut to describe any and all 'red' horses though so even my lighter mare with the flaxen mane and tail is called chestnut here.


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## cretahillsgal (Dec 9, 2011)

Melinda, Red Bird looks sorrel to me, but Rosebud looks bay.


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## ohmt (Dec 9, 2011)

I promise Rosebud is not bay  She is chestnut.


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Dec 9, 2011)

ohmt said:


> Melinda-Mars is definitely just 'red' with nothing else but appy going on. Rosalee was tested for red/black and silver (FWF Little Red Ranger was a silver carrier) and came back as silver neg and chestnut. I believe her roan and sabino genes gave her the 'off' color and Mars' appy gene gives her hers. Most of my chestnut mares are about the shade of your other mare. I use chestnut to describe any and all 'red' horses though so even my lighter mare with the flaxen mane and tail is called chestnut here.



Good to know! Plus if she were a silver carrier I think I would have more silver colored foals but her black based foals definitely do not display silver at all! As for sorrel vs. chestnut, I have found that it all depends on which breed in the "big horse" world that people came from, we started with Paints which recognize the sorrel and chestnut colors where other breeds only recognize chestnut.


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 9, 2011)

ohmt said:


> And this is a terrible picture with mud and clutter everywhere, but here is Mars' dam:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


See it amazes me she isn't silver because to me she looks like a silver bay or at least something silver and Mars does look liver chestnut to me but also could possibly carry silver. Very funny.


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## Maple Hollow Farm (Dec 9, 2011)

cretahillsgal said:


> Melinda, Red Bird looks sorrel to me, but Rosebud looks bay.



Rosebud is definitely not bay, pictures dont show color very well but she has no black points on her legs and doesnt have a black mane/tail.


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## frosthillfarm (Dec 9, 2011)

Here's my silver bay. (genetically tested) When I purchased her a few years back the seller was certain she was chestnut but her darker points really gave it away. LOVE this mare - AMHR Halter Horse of the Year, Under 2009 & 2011 AMHA World Champion Senior Mare - all 30" of her! <3


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## RescueMini (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, I found a picture of her jumping and it shows her legs well. She has two hind socks and front coronets. (Her hooves have black polish on, if that affects anything.) This picture does her no justice when it comes to her head! I make it distorted when I blurred myself out.


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## ohmt (Dec 9, 2011)

Yes, she was definitely an interesting shade JMS! I loved that mare too. She has quite a few foals overseas and in Canada and lots of National Champion grandget. Way before her time. She gave us 9 foals I believe, 8 fillies and 1 colt. No silver



Her mane and tail were always that salt and pepper color. We called her "grandma".


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 9, 2011)

RescueMini said:


> Ok, I found a picture of her jumping and it shows her legs well. She has two hind socks and front coronets. (Her hooves have black polish on, if that affects anything.) This picture does her no justice when it comes to her head! I make it distorted when I blurred myself out.


I would say silver bay.


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## RescueMini (Dec 9, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> I would say silver bay.


How do you tell that she is a sliver bay and not a sorrel? Sorry for being so naive, I don't know much about color genetics as I don't breed, but I would love to learn more.


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## Forever Farm (Dec 9, 2011)

Silver carrying palomino mare...






Her bay silver daughter...











And you'd think this colt out of the palomino mare is a bay silver, too...






But nope, he's Ee AA nT nO- we think the AA accounts for the lighter black mane & tail.

Not the best pic of him, but full brother to the silver bay mare- smokey black...


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## kuusou (Dec 9, 2011)

I think my shetland is a flaxen liver chestnut





This boy is registered as a silver bay but not to sure about that


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## Songcatcher (Dec 9, 2011)

Forever Farm said:


> And you'd think this colt out of the palomino mare is a bay silver, too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That test result does not include a test for Silver. Black, Agouti, Tobiano, and Frame Overo. AA would have nothing to do with producing a lighter mane or tail.


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## chandab (Dec 9, 2011)

RescueMini said:


> How do you tell that she is a sliver bay and not a sorrel? Sorry for being so naive, I don't know much about color genetics as I don't breed, but I would love to learn more.


A sorrel/chestnut is usually uniformly red all over body, legs and head; unless something like sabino or true roan is affecting the color.

The legs on a silver bay will be darker (anywhere from just a hint of silver/grey to dark brown); your girls legs looker darker than her body.


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## JAX (Dec 9, 2011)

Forgive me if I get things mixed up..... Here is what I think after quick look at these posts and please dont get angry with me...





Eagle- To me your mare looks like a bay. I couldnt see the Appy very good though as Im on a very small screen. I dont think I'd call her a wild bay because her black on legs seems that its pretty high up. Shse does seem to possibly have mealy/pangare modifier though. Check out second picture on this page http://www.theequine...ifiers/pangare/. Maybe or maybe not...

Jill- Love Destinys color wish I had one!

Eagle- I agree I think Your sons pony is sorrel and very handsome fellow!

Melinda- Mars Rosebud has me stumped... Shes very close to one of my mares that I will soon get tested. On Rosebud maybe its the Appy influence thats throwing me off, but if you had not said anything about that I'd have guessed she was a silver bay. She looks chestnut but the coloring of her mane and tail are different, and maybe its just the time of year or something but in some of the pictures her fetlocks seem really light??? You mentioned to someone that she is not a bay because her mane, tail and points were not black. But the silver gene changes that for the most part, and hers do seem different.. Like I said shes got me stumped!! Shes a pretty girl though!





Ohmt- Wow I see where Rosebud gets her looks! Once again this is the coloring that has got me soooooo confused just like her daughter. If you guys ever decide to get either of these girls tested I would REALLY love to hear the results! I am looking for any like this color (or Rosebuds) that has been tested and the results have been chestnut with no silver.

RescueMini- I think silver bay. Her front lower legs seem to have that grey look to them. Are her lower legs a different color than the rest of her? A little darker? Maybe kinda grey even?

FrostHillFarm- Yep this is what I keep coming across! I've had four now that were colored very close to yours and some closer to Rosebud and her dam that everyone tells me are chestnuts, but the results keep coming in like yours!





Kuusou- WOW



Interesting color!!

Once again I am not trying to cause a stir just looking for someone who has had these horses tested and has gotten a result of chestnut, with or without silver.

LOL took me so long to write that I missed two more posts!


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 9, 2011)

chandab said:


> A sorrel/chestnut is usually uniformly red all over body, legs and head; unless something like sabino or true roan is affecting the color.
> 
> The legs on a silver bay will be darker (anywhere from just a hint of silver/grey to dark brown); your girls legs looker darker than her body.


That and also the base of her mane is darker.


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## RescueMini (Dec 9, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> That and also the base of her mane is darker.


Ok, that makes a lot of sense now.



I never would have guessed, but now that I think about it, when I clip her bridle path it is dark grey. I guess you do learn something new every day!





As a side note, I looked at some more pictures of her legs and some were a shade darker and others were the exact same color.



Talk about confusing me! And there is no way I can go out and check her because she has has her winter coat. XD I guess I never really bothered to look to see if her legs were any darker, I was always just concerned that they were clean and that her socks were white!


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## ohmt (Dec 9, 2011)

JAX-the mare I pictured (Rosebud's dam) has been tested as chestnut with no silver



We tested her because we had no idea what color she was. She is a roan with sabino which I believe gives her that off color. Rosebud was not always that dark color, not until her appy started to show I'm guessing. Rosebud's sire was a black snowcap so she can not be a silver carrier. I don't think i've ever seen a silver bay look like her anyway.

They're interesting aren't they?


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## JAX (Dec 9, 2011)

ohmt

Wow Thanks! Yours is the first I've come across then. Still interested to see others out there as well. Sorry to say I dont know much about how Roan and/or Sabino affects the coat color. If I ever figure out how to correctly size a photo for posting then I will have more questions for Roan and Sabino coloring experts too. I find color and pattern genetics very fun! Just want to learn more.


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## RescueMini (Dec 9, 2011)

Ok, I did find some pictures of her this summer at a show. In most of them her front legs from the knees down were slightly darker as well as from her hocks to her socks. So she probably would be a silver bay then?


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## Shari (Dec 9, 2011)

I find it very easy to tell what is a Silver bay and what is a Liver chestnut. Have had enough of both.

Here is Maggie, she is a medium Liver chestnut... and she tested for chestnut.

She has some black and light colors mixed in her mane and tail.


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## JAX (Dec 9, 2011)

Shari

I completely understand how you would find it easy to call the mare you posted as Chestnut but I am curious what you would have called Rosebuds Dam and what you would have called FrostHillFarms mare and would like to know why.


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## Shari (Dec 9, 2011)

This filly was tested Silver Bay with the pangare gene, which adds an extra twist.

Silver bays always have darker lower legs, usually shades of a charcoal color. When the are born, their skin around their eyes are black. Mane and tail can be anything from white to shades of silver. Can not see it in this photo but in person it was easy to see how silver was shot through her mane and tail.

Where as pure Chestnuts, always have shades of pink skin around their eyes when born, that will darken a little later. Chestnuts can have black or light hairs in their manes and tails. Like Maggie. She tested as plan old chesnut.


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## Shari (Dec 9, 2011)

JAX said:


> Shari
> 
> I completely understand how you would find it easy to call the mare you posted as Chestnut but I am curious what you would have called Rosebuds Dam and what you would have called FrostHillFarms mare and would like to know why.


Haven't looked at them yet but I will.


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## LindaL (Dec 9, 2011)

Here are a few horses that have/had me stumped...

The first is a horse I used to own that looked like a dark palomino (and was listed as such on his papers), but was actually a silver bay.

The second is a mare I own. She has a "silvery mane and tail", but no darker points on her legs. Her dam is black so does not carry silver and her sire was tested negative for silver...I have not had her tested, but I am curious to see if she in fact IS silver. I have never seen a horse with that color mane and tail that was not a silver bay...maybe a silver chestnut (even tho they say silver does not show up on chestnut)...


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## Shari (Dec 9, 2011)

Mars Rosebud, is a pretty chestnut just like Maggie.

There is no shading or darkness on her lower legs. As for Mane and Tail, Appy can play merry hobs with color. Add Liver chestnut...





When most people clip liver chestnuts you will get almost black or black, "Liver spots" shading close to their skin... on many of them with this color.


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## Shari (Dec 9, 2011)

LindaL said:


> Here are a few horses that have/had me stumped...
> 
> The first is a horse I used to own that looked like a dark palomino (and was listed as such on his papers), but was actually a silver bay.
> 
> The second is a mare I own. She has a "silvery mane and tail", but no darker points on her legs. Her dam is black so does not carry silver and her sire was tested negative for silver...I have not had her tested, but I am curious to see if she in fact IS silver. I have never seen a horse with that color mane and tail that was not a silver bay...maybe a silver chestnut (even tho they say silver does not show up on chestnut)...


Any chance the second mare is min Sabino?

Might be worth having her color tested.


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## Shari (Dec 9, 2011)

Modifier genes include: bay, flaxen, grey, sooty/smutty, and mealy/pangare. Modifier genes also work in conjunction with base coat color and create different visual results depending on the base coat color and other genetic factors.

Bay modifier: As was described earlier bay, or the agouti modifier, only affects the black base coat. The body of the horse is brown, with the black restricted to the points, mane and tail. Bays come in a wide range of color including blood/red bays, and very dark black bays.

Champagne: The champagne dilution effects both black and red base coats, and is a simple dominant. This is also a relatively new genetic discovery, and as such is still being studied. Common traits of the champagne dilution include: amber, green, or blue eye color, pink to a light brown colored skin, often with freckles, dilution of the coat color, and a metallic sheen to the coat.

On a red base coat creates gold champagne: golden body color with a flaxen mane and tail, often mistaken for palomino.

Flaxen modifier: The flaxen modifier is not as yet completely understood. It is believed that the flaxen modifier only affects horses with red base coats, and it is also believed to be recessive (which means that both parents must pass on the gene for it to be expressed). When it is expressed, the flaxen modifier caused a lightening of the mane and tail ranging from golden brown to pure white.

Sooty/Smutty modifier: The sooty modifier works on both red and black based horses by darkening random parts of the body, but most often darkens the towline of the horse affected. However, it also affects the shoulders, hips and face of some horses. In some horses to sooty modifier is expressed to such a point that the horse becomes so dark its true color is almost completely masked.

Mealy/Pangare modifier: The mealy modifier causes a lightening ranging from tan to white in the following areas: on or around the muzzle, around the eyes, along the underside of the belly, in the flanks, on the buttocks and behind the elbows.

Many horses express a combination of more than one modifier or dilution-gene creating both a beautiful coat, and an intriguing puzzle as science, breeders and horse lovers alike strive to solve the mystery that is color genetics!


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## Lewella (Dec 9, 2011)

Forever Farm said:


> And you'd think this colt out of the palomino mare is a bay silver, too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


There is no silver test result there - what you have there is a BAY test result - E is black, AA means homozygous for Agouti. He wouldn't have that light mane and tail without Silver. Silver is coded as Z - no Z in these results. Agouti (A) does not effect mane and tail color - it allows a black to keep its black mane and tail while modifing the body color to a redish brown shade. There is no visual difference between heterozygous and homozygous Agouti on a bay.

I've attached a photo of my liver chestnut Shetland mare McCalls RedneckWoman of PlatteRidge (Yes, she had a mule foal in 2010). Her sire was a bay, her dam is a blue roan going gray out of a grayed out black mare and sired by a blue roan stallion. Absolutely no chance of silver. Here's a link to a newborn photo of her with her dam - http://platteridgefarm.com/2005foals/Passionate05filly2.JPG


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## LindaL (Dec 9, 2011)

Shari said:


> Any chance the second mare is min Sabino?
> 
> Might be worth having her color tested.


Very possible! Her sire is LWO +, so might also have sabino in there as well (I don't know all his test results, so can't tell you whether he is sabino or not. I do plan to have her tested for various things, but she is a coming 3 yr old, so wasn't important to test before now (before I breed her).


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## Field-of-Dreams (Dec 9, 2011)

This guy was genetically tested and is chestnut and NON silver. I would have bet anything he was a silver bay!


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## Wings (Dec 9, 2011)

Loving this topic!

Huge fan of the silver gene so it is great to see so many examples being looked at. Also brilliant to not see the term 'silver chestnut'



I have a friend convinced her horse is that when he is a chestnut with flaxen mane and tail. She refuses to listen when I say silver and red don't play together!

Question about one of mine, he is registered as a silver bay and is out of a palomino mare and a black sire however unlike all the others I have met he is never heavy on the silver. He seems to match photos of some people's silver smokey blacks, do you think that is what he is instead? It's what I'm leaning towards myself but would like some other opinions.


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## Forever Farm (Dec 9, 2011)

Lewella said:


> There is no silver test result there - what you have there is a BAY test result - E is black, AA means homozygous for Agouti. He wouldn't have that light mane and tail without Silver. Silver is coded as Z - no Z in these results. Agouti (A) does not effect mane and tail color - it allows a black to keep its black mane and tail while modifing the body color to a redish brown shade. There is no visual difference between heterozygous and homozygous Agouti on a bay.
> 
> I've attached a photo of my liver chestnut Shetland mare McCalls RedneckWoman of PlatteRidge (Yes, she had a mule foal in 2010). Her sire was a bay, her dam is a blue roan going gray out of a grayed out black mare and sired by a blue roan stallion. Absolutely no chance of silver. Here's a link to a newborn photo of her with her dam - http://platteridgefa...ate05filly2.JPG



He was tested for silver and does not carry it, even though I could have swore he did with that wild mane & tail color- every horse that' I've ever seen personally that had that same shade of mane & tail were tested AA. No, it's not proven, but it is just a thought.


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## chandab (Dec 9, 2011)

Forever Farm said:


> He was tested for silver and does not carry it, even though I could have swore he did with that wild mane & tail color- every horse that' I've ever seen personally that had that same shade of mane & tail were tested AA. No, it's not proven, but it is just a thought.


I never tested him for silver, but here's my AA tested bay gelding (picture doesn't show all the "frosting" in his mane):


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## minifreishorsefarm (Dec 9, 2011)

Forever Farm said:


> And you'd think this colt out of the palomino mare is a bay silver, too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So what color is he then? being Ee he is black based so why cant he be silver bay? None of what you listed there is for silver testing. It cant be a chestnut if its carrying a black gene right?

Marsha


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## cretahillsgal (Dec 9, 2011)

RescueMini said:


> Ok, I found a picture of her jumping and it shows her legs well. She has two hind socks and front coronets. (Her hooves have black polish on, if that affects anything.) This picture does her no justice when it comes to her head! I make it distorted when I blurred myself out.


I would call this one silver bay.


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## minifreishorsefarm (Dec 9, 2011)

Forever Farm said:


> He was tested for silver and does not carry it, even though I could have swore he did with that wild mane & tail color- every horse that' I've ever seen personally that had that same shade of mane & tail were tested AA. No, it's not proven, but it is just a thought.


I had a bay mare and her filly both test AA (homozygous for agouti) and their manes and tails are very dark.

Marsha


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## minifreishorsefarm (Dec 9, 2011)

chandab said:


> I never tested him for silver, but here's my AA tested bay gelding (picture doesn't show all the "frosting" in his mane):
> 
> View attachment 5116


I'd call him silver bay, the legs are way too light to be a regular bay and his mane has the lighter color mixed in.

Marsha


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## Hawks_Eye_Minis (Dec 9, 2011)

Just out of curiosity what color would you call him? hes almost 8 months old im DYING to shave him but its going to be a long time before i can because we have 10* weather as is LOL

I was told bay BUT his legs are almost white or tan and i shaved them to see if they were going to come in back NOPE


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## cretahillsgal (Dec 9, 2011)

Forever Farm said:


> And you'd think this colt out of the palomino mare is a bay silver, too...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Those test results don't tell you if he is carrying silver or not. They only tell you that he is a bay tobiano pinto carrying LWO. Need to test for silver to see if he is carrying it or not.

Edited to add that I had not read through all the posts and I see many others here saying the same thing.


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## cretahillsgal (Dec 9, 2011)

Hawks_Eye, I would say that your boy looks bay for sure!


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## Hawks_Eye_Minis (Dec 9, 2011)

really even with the white tail and legs? i was told by someone else chestnut SO idk his mom was bay dad was buckskin


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## cretahillsgal (Dec 9, 2011)

Wings, I would call your boy silver smokey black. But he could also just be smokey black.


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## chandab (Dec 9, 2011)

minifreishorsefarm said:


> I'd call him silver bay, the legs are way too light to be a regular bay and his mane has the lighter color mixed in.
> 
> Marsha


Its kind of hard to see it, but here you can see his legs have darkened up, but his mane is still frosted. Mane is this color year round, so don't know if its just sunbleaching or not. His tail is black. [Now that he is a gelding, I probably won't test him for silver, unless I have money to burn and curiosity gets the better of me.]




I need to get new pictures. I lost many that I took this year, when my computer crashed last month, as I hadn't saved to my thumb drive in way too long.


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## Wings (Dec 9, 2011)

cretahillsgal said:


> Wings, I would call your boy silver smokey black. But he could also just be smokey black.



Thanks




I'll have to test him one day just to find out for sure!


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## Lewella (Dec 10, 2011)

Forever Farm said:


> He was tested for silver and does not carry it, even though I could have swore he did with that wild mane & tail color- every horse that' I've ever seen personally that had that same shade of mane & tail were tested AA. No, it's not proven, but it is just a thought.


I'd be retesting for silver using another lab or having the lab you used rerun the test. Which lab did you use?

The vast majority of bay Thoroughbreds are AA, the vast majority of bay Arabians are AA - zygosity for Agouti does not alter the black pigment of the mane and tail. That's one the hallmarks of Agouti - the fact that it leaves the points black while changing the body color.


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## Eagle (Dec 10, 2011)

JAX said:


> Here is what I think after quick look at these posts and please dont get angry with me...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


If my mare is bay I don't think it was your fault



You have started my day with a giggle



Thank you.

What I wasn't sure about was her brown mane and legs, they are definitely brown and not black, I don't think she is carrying pangare either as you can see in this better pic.





This is her summer coat. (sorry about the handmade fly mask, she ripped hers so I needed something emergency whilst I ordered a new one)






This was during the summer she was very sick and stayed in her stable, here her mane isn't bleached






It doesn't matter what colour she is i am just curious. I want to find out where in Europe I could get her tested.


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## Shari (Dec 10, 2011)

Hawks_Eye_Minis said:


> Just out of curiosity what color would you call him? hes almost 8 months old im DYING to shave him but its going to be a long time before i can because we have 10* weather as is LOL
> 
> I was told bay BUT his legs are almost white or tan and i shaved them to see if they were going to come in back NOPE


He hasn't lost the baby fur on his legs yet. Give him time.


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## Shari (Dec 10, 2011)

LindaL said:


> Very possible! Her sire is LWO +, so might also have sabino in there as well (I don't know all his test results, so can't tell you whether he is sabino or not. I do plan to have her tested for various things, but she is a coming 3 yr old, so wasn't important to test before now (before I breed her).


If she is, could be why she has an interesting colored mane.


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## supaspot (Dec 10, 2011)

Eagle said:


> If my mare is bay I don't think it was your fault
> 
> 
> 
> ...


this place will get the results back to you a week after they receive them http://www.horsedna.co.uk/i


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## supaspot (Dec 10, 2011)

so tell me what colour you think this one is , pics clipped and unclipped

the video shows him clipped

http://www.youtube.c...u/3/WJ_UPFLXUNU

when unclipped his colour looks bay based to me but his legs are not dark , when clipped I think he looks red based ???

Ill post pics sire and dam in next post


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## supaspot (Dec 10, 2011)

sire - black -carries frame and splash

and dam -snowflake appy

they both carry red


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## Minimor (Dec 10, 2011)

Here is one of my silver bays; Plattes Unconventional is silver bay tobiano/sabino:






This is a silver bay filly:






The others are right--Aa or AA makes no difference to blackness of mane/tail/legs...

This colt is Aa (not tested but has to be Aa because his dam is black & cannot be carrying agouti. His sire is chestnut & obviously does carry agouti)






but even if he were AA his mane/tail/legs would be this same black color.

The others are correct--Forever Farms' stallion pictured above has to have silver because the AA would not make his mane/tail that light color.



> But nope, he's Ee AA nT nO- we think the AA accounts for the lighter black mane & tail.


 There is no results there one way or the other for silver so it appears that the lab did not test for silver, even if your intention was for them to do so.


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## High Meadow Miniatures (Dec 10, 2011)

This is my silver bay mare, lab tested E/E (homozygous black). She is also A/a and n/Z (hetrozygous agouti and silver), though not tested. Her sire is solid black, and her dam is silver bay.


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## ohmt (Dec 10, 2011)

Supaspot-i think your boy is a chestnut appaloosa. I have his twin, right down to the shade of red, mane and tail color, AND appy roaning! I tested mine and she turned out chestnut (silver carrier), no black, no agouti. I thought for sure she was a silver bay sometimes. That darn appy gene!


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## supaspot (Dec 10, 2011)

ohmt said:


> Supaspot-i think your boy is a chestnut appaloosa. I have his twin, right down to the shade of red, mane and tail color, AND appy roaning! I tested mine and she turned out chestnut (silver carrier), no black, no agouti. I thought for sure she was a silver bay sometimes. That darn appy gene!


Thankyou , this one has had me wondering for a while now , every time I decided upon a colour Id change my mind a week later


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## Jill (Dec 10, 2011)

Here's a classic silver bay gelding that I own, *Tibbs Sundowner HOF* (9x National / Res. National Champion). I love his color, which is undeniably silver bay. He's a hoofed teddy bear















Really red in winter:


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## Forever Farm (Dec 10, 2011)

Lewella said:


> I'd be retesting for silver using another lab or having the lab you used rerun the test. Which lab did you use?
> 
> The vast majority of bay Thoroughbreds are AA, the vast majority of bay Arabians are AA - zygosity for Agouti does not alter the black pigment of the mane and tail. That's one the hallmarks of Agouti - the fact that it leaves the points black while changing the body color.


He was tested twice by UC Davis- once when we did his LWO and they stated no silver, then when his sire's owner's were testing the sire for the dun zygousity, they asked would we resubmit the colt for the dun zygousity test, and UC Davis reran him again, again, no silver.

He reminds me of this colt, who is tested as a bay by UC DAvis and is a purebred Arabian, so no silver possible...

http://forums.arabianbreeders.net/topic/49790-flashy-sweet-sweepstakes-gelding-fancy/

We think his sire possbily carried sabino as well as being frame & LWO+, but neither one has been tested for sabino.


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## ohmt (Dec 10, 2011)

See to me that Arabian is an obvious chestnut with sabino. Your boy I would say is an obvious silver bay if it weren't for two tests saying he isn't. Then again, I am fairly certain kuusou's colt is a bay sabino with no silver or grey. So sabino could be effecting your boy. It's just that he has the 'roaning' type which gives him his off color while your boy does not. He's interesting. Especially since you can see his hocks are the silvery color and not black like they should be.


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## Forever Farm (Dec 10, 2011)

He was born very dark as far as his mane & tail...






Body clipped at about 2 weeks old and folks swore he was a chestnut, but we knew that wasn't possible since his sire was AA as well...






He changes from day to day, though, right now his legs are black- you can see the darker hock and top of his knee here...






I don't care though, I was only ever worried about the LWO status.


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## rabbitsfizz (Dec 11, 2011)

It is possible it is Flaxen...we still aren't certain how or even if, flaxen affects Black.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Dec 11, 2011)

Would like to know what color you think this mare is. She has had no testing. I always thought silver bay, but not sure.


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 11, 2011)

silver bay


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## Shari (Dec 12, 2011)

Mini Gaits Farm said:


> Would like to know what color you think this mare is. She has had no testing. I always thought silver bay, but not sure.


Yes, She is Silver Bay.


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## supaspot (Dec 12, 2011)

this is one of my silver bays , same shade as yours


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Dec 12, 2011)

Thank you...I thought so, but wasn't sure. My big horse friends call her liver chestnut...but silver bay for sure.


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## thehorsegirl (Dec 12, 2011)

I'm late to the party but would really like to know what color you guys think my boy is. Everyone asks me and I never know what to say. He is registered bay pinto, big horse friends call him chestnut, and I think he's silver… something. 

 

 






 

http://i975.photobucket.com/albums/ae234/thehorsegirl/securedownload1copy.jpg


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## minifreishorsefarm (Dec 12, 2011)

I dont ever have luck putting pics on here but I do have a silver bay pinto mare and a chestnut pinto mare that I think look a lot alike. They are on my mares page here: http://windyacresminiaturehorses.webs.com/mares.htm

4th mare down is the silver bay and 5th is the sorrel.

I can see how people have a lot of trouble seeing the difference between silver bay and sorrel (or liver chestnut). Liver chestnut is an odd color to me, doesnt look chestnut at all so seems weird calling it that.





Marsha


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## JMS Miniatures (Dec 12, 2011)

Well its hard to wrap your arm around it when you have a horse going from this






to this






I love this boy's color. When I first bought him I really liked him when he was bright red, I wish I had better pics to show. When I got him as a weanling he was literally brown. It was an amazing transformation. I think both parents are black bays. I'm so excited that he will be showing again next year.

Horse girl I would say your's is silver bay.


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## Dontworrybeappy (Dec 12, 2011)

Here's my main Silver Bay - he's tested homozygous for black, and homozygous for silver - heterozygous for agouti. The Appy screws with his color enough that a lot of people think he's either sorrel or palomino.


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## cassie (Dec 12, 2011)

JAX said:


> ohmt
> 
> Wow Thanks! Yours is the first I've come across then. Still interested to see others out there as well. Sorry to say I dont know much about how Roan and/or Sabino affects the coat color. If I ever figure out how to correctly size a photo for posting then I will have more questions for Roan and Sabino coloring experts too. I find color and pattern genetics very fun! Just want to learn more.



just found this topic, Jax what a great topic!!



I absoloutly love all the silver bays/ blacks etc...

all of everyone's horses are absoloutly beautiful!!

here are my two mares... being so new to the mini world I would have thought my girl Penny was chestnut with flaxen mane and tail... but maybe she is a silver bay?? lol totally confused now hehe.

my other mare I'm pretty sure is definitley silver bay.





so this is Penny.




when I go home for lunch I will take some pics of Suzie to show you her colouring...

So would Penny be silver bay aswell? Thanks I love all this colour stuff!!


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## shelia (Dec 12, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> Well its hard to wrap your arm around it when you have a horse going from this
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This is the liver Chestnut thread and I think yours may be the only one I have seen so far. maybe one other possibility. Very nice! I was beginning to think maybe there is no such thing.


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## valshingle (Dec 12, 2011)

I have not tested this boy, but both parents are chestnut in appearance. He is foundation Shetland. I have always considered him to be close to a liver chestnut:
















I will list a horse on my website as a 'silver chestnut' when I know it is carrying the silver gene. It is more for the viewers information than a description of the color.


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## Minimor (Dec 13, 2011)

This pony is what I call liver chestnut:


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## Bonny (Dec 13, 2011)

Ok heres one

I was pretty convinced she was a bay, she has black points on her ears, black in her mane and tail. However on her legs its very strange, she has some black but there is a deep sorrel color there too. And the black is barely visible over the top of her socks. I was told she was a dark chestnut. I didnt think Chestnuts could have ear points?


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## ohmt (Dec 13, 2011)

Bonny-with the appy and 'pinto' genes at work with your mare, it's hard to tell! There is Mars Rosebud pictured earlier in this thread that looks very dark, but is 'red', but appy can also make a bay look almost 'red' too.

Here is a 2 yr old bay appaloosa + sabino colt of mine. He does not have the black points as he should and his mane and tail are coming in 'grey'. I think in a few years it will be hard to tell on him whether or not he is bay or chestnut as he varnishing out too.






So it's hard to tell on your mare.


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## valshingle (Dec 13, 2011)

Bonny said:


> Ok heres one
> 
> I was pretty convinced she was a bay, she has black points on her ears, black in her mane and tail. However on her legs its very strange, she has some black but there is a deep sorrel color there too. And the black is barely visible over the top of her socks. I was told she was a dark chestnut. I didnt think Chestnuts could have ear points?


I think your mare is a bay sabino appy. I have a Shetland mare that looks the same - minus the spots. She tested to be a bay sabino. The give away on my mare is the darker spots on her ears (almost points) and some black running down the center of her mane. It's hard to see in this photo, but the forlock looks gray. BTW she was tested and is negative for grey, silver, and cream. This is Tequila:


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## Shari (Dec 13, 2011)

Liver Chestnuts come in many shades.

Maggie is what I call a medium Liver Chestnut, as she fades a lot when she is in the sun. If I blanket her all Fall, winter, spring...until her new coat comes in, she is a lot darker.

Here is a Link of Liver Chestnut colors.


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## Shari (Dec 13, 2011)

cassie said:


> just found this topic, Jax what a great topic!!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Sadly, I see no signs of her being Silver Bay. Her lower legs have no charcoal color in any shade. But she is a very pretty light chestnut.


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## Shari (Dec 13, 2011)

Minimor said:


> This pony is what I call liver chestnut:


Now he is dark enough, I would call him a "black Liver Chestnut".


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## crazyponies (Dec 15, 2011)

this is our silver bay boy


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