# Westminster Dog Show on now.



## Lizzie (Feb 14, 2012)

I hope you are all watching, the Westminster Dog Show on the USA channel. Some super dogs lined up this year.

Lizzie


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## Genie (Feb 14, 2012)

I would be watching if I could get it


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Feb 14, 2012)

The live stream didnt seem to be working. I was SOOOOO hoping that a particular black standard poodle would be in the line-up , but it wasn't meandt to be this time for "London"



but he at least did get BOS. All our standard poodles were keeping there paws crossed for him. My second choice would be FiFI the dobe.

Just got a text..BIS went to David Fitzpatrick and the Pekingese. CONGRATS to them



:yeah . I'm waiting to hear the results of the RBIS..anyone hear anything?


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## stormy (Feb 15, 2012)

A friend of mine won best of opposite sex with her beautiful Beagle Gala...so happy for her!


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## Lizzie (Feb 15, 2012)

It was a good show. If you missed any of your favourite breed judging, you can see it here...

http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/

Of course I had hoped the Brussels Griffon had taken the Terrier group, but admit I adore that Kerry and hoped she would go BIS. Still cannot get my head around German Shepherds and what the breed has become. I guarantee, if any of my dogs moved around the ring like that, we would have been excused.

Beautiful head piece on the Peke.

Lizzie


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## Riverrose28 (Feb 15, 2012)

Lizzie said:


> It was a good show. If you missed any of your favourite breed judging, you can see it here...
> 
> http://www.westminsterkennelclub.org/
> 
> ...


I so agree with you on the German Shepherd! What have they done with the breed in the last 15 years? It looks like all of them are in pain. I had sheperds back in the 1960's and they were sheperds. It's a shame the judges keep placing them in this horrable condition.

I think the peke was awesome! Some of the new breeds were great too! I think the dog, can't remember his name or breed, in the non-sporting group was a good looking dog, but being not familar with the breed I of course couldn't compare him to the others, Liked his head and neck. The Irish setter was pretty awesome, and the boxer that didn't place was great as well. The dobie was a nice dog too. My son-in-law watched both nights and we drank beer together, and I filled him in on all the attributes of the dogs. His wife, my daughter used to show Pembrook Welsh Corgies and I used to show Black and Tan American Cockers. Although the cockers were nice to watch they didn't place. Too much grooming for me now with my OA. We also used to have Bearded Collies, but after losing the last one to a bleeding disorder, never again, too heartbreaking. Of course all of them are Champions just to get to this level, but I picked the peke, didn't place a bet, but I'm glad he won.


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## Lizzie (Feb 15, 2012)

Yes, Riverrose28, I agree. Can you imagine any other breed at all, being shown and looking as though it was thrown together with spare parts and none working correctly?

Many moons ago, I showed German Shepherds in England. We called them Alsatians in those days, due to the anit-German sentiment after WW1. Even in the poorest bred dogs of those days, I never saw any which were built like the (supposedly) top dogs we see here today.

When I owned Canine Security, we most usually had over 80 GSs in training at any given time. They were all trained for the Military. Not all made the grade of course, but we would never even had considered one, with today's 'look'. They just would not have stood up to the intense training required. While many breeds have changed somewhat, over the years, it really saddens me to see the current look in the GSs.

This is interesting



Personally, I do not agree that inbreeding has caused this, since hundreds of thousands of GSs across the world, are not particularly related. It has just become a 'fad' for those who breed and show, whatever country applies.

Lizzie


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Feb 15, 2012)

I have to say the Peke took me by total surprise..I just didnt see that coming,but he did put on a very good show. I agree with what everyone has sad about the G. Shepherds..my hubby had shepherds when we first got married, (back in the ice age of 1969) they were beautiful and put together like a shepherd shoud be,nothing like what the judges seem to be looking for today. But, I also remember back in the 70's when we had our Great Danes, we had the nice tall and stocky built imports..built more like a mastiff but yet in the 70's the "look" in the ring sure changed. The judges all seemed to be looking for refined, but tall dogs, with a built more like a grayhound..(think those were called California Danes, at the time).. I didnt care for them at all. Now I have standard poodles again, along with our black lab..

Corinne


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## Lizzie (Feb 15, 2012)

Eeek. Don't even get me started on Great Danes - a breed I had since the sixties. I do find GDs in Europe are mostly better built now, than those in the US. Here, the bone has almost disappeared, the dogs are seemingly bred for height alone and those beautiful heads of the past, have often gone. Taller is not always better. Breeders in the US have often unfortunately, bred for taller, rather than conformationally correct, dogs.

Years ago, I had GDs who always reached their eleventh birthday or more. Now the average age I believe, is 7.2 years. So sad for a formerly, lovely breed.

Look at this absolutely ghastly Harlequin Great Dane male. Tall no doubt, fine boned, probably cow hocked, head too small for the body.

http://greatdanepupp...es/0405dogs.jpg

Compare to two of my own dogs of the long past. Both shown at ten months of age. How things have changed.

Our Harlequin Farms, was actually named for our beloved Harlequin Great Danes, even though we have not owned any for many years.

Lizzie











Lizzie


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## bevann (Feb 15, 2012)

I was rooting for the Doxie even though it is not my breed.I ,too, am a FORMER German Shepherd breeder and exhibitor.Started in 1960 with a pair and had the same line for 42 years.Wish I had frozen semen from my last male who died in 2002.He was the last and looked nothing like the GSD of today.IMO the breed in this country has been ruined.IMO it started when Ch.Lance of Fran Jo was the Grand Victor(can't remember the year)and there was so much inbreeding of Lance offspring. There is so much double handling in the breed-don't stand too close or you may get run over outside the ring.Many nervous dogs with questionable dispositions.The GSD that look decent come from West Germany or other places in Europe.I am reaaly sad that such a great breed has ended up where it is today.I got so discouraged trying to find a sound sane bitch to breed to my male that I quit trying.If they had good hips they were nuts and I refused to breed anything with OFA Good or Excellent hips.Had bitches shipped from all over the country and if the hips passed the disposition failed.I miss SAM my solid black not over angulated sane intelligent dog.Man can sure screw up some good breeds.Seems there are lots of dog breeders(former and present)on this forum.I enjoy reading ablout the K9 favorites of other members.


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Feb 15, 2012)

Lizzie, that is exactly why I went out of Danes...it was so hard ot find "correct~ old tyme style dogs" . I had GD from the early 60's to the mid 80"s, and by then you could see the change in the breeding style already happening. Taller and more slender ( I should say ALOT more slender) . Am I correct in thinking those were called California Danes?? (its been so long ago) I had blues, blacks 1 brindle and 1 harle. Ours live to be about 10 to 11 yrs old...so short of a time for a beautiful breed.

The GS ..gosh, I dont even know what to say. Its really to bad.. and I dont believe for one minute that its inbreeding either..

It does seem like a new fad for a particular breed starts and some of the judges dont help it out by placing dogs with the "fad" look over breed standards.

I will have to dig out some pics of our Danes and post them. We had the Meistersinger lines....way back then. The bottom pic looks so much like our Sam looked.You had some Beautiful dogs, height and well balanced, that is what a GD should be.

The jpg of the dog you posted to look at ...good color, but a much to small head to fit the height of his body.


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## izmepeggy (Feb 16, 2012)

MeadowRidge Farm said:


> Lizzie, that is exactly why I went out of Danes...it was so hard ot find "correct~ old tyme style dogs" . I had GD from the early 60's to the mid 80"s, and by then you could see the change in the breeding style already happening. Taller and more slender ( I should say ALOT more slender) . Am I correct in thinking those were called California Danes?? (its been so long ago) I had blues, blacks 1 brindle and 1 harle. Ours live to be about 10 to 11 yrs old...so short of a time for a beautiful breed.
> 
> The GS ..gosh, I dont even know what to say. Its really to bad.. and I dont believe for one minute that its inbreeding either..
> 
> ...


Tony Pratt that started the Meistersinger Kennel here in Louisville ,Ky passed away a few years ago..She was from German.Said she was born with a Great Dane in the bed and she will die with a Great Dane in her bed..and she did..I can still spot one of her breeding.


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## Lizzie (Feb 16, 2012)

I liked some of the Meistersinger dogs, although the only one I purchased, sight unseen, turned out not to be breeding quality at all. Ms. Pratt got herself into a great deal of trouble in the later years of her breeding. Many puppies turned out not to be by the sires she listed and some even by sires long dead. She was stripped of all her AKC privileges. Sad really.

I have never heard of the term 'California Danes', MeadowRidge Farm.

Do you remember a huge website, called "The Great Dane in History and Art? It was a site I made many years ago, showing hundreds of old photos, prints and artwork, all depicting the breed. I think I had over 300 pictures on the site and tons of info. It also had a great deal about original breeders of note, in Germany. Most are now forgotten unfortunately.

My friend Ilda Gouveia in Portugal, organised the exhibition on the life and death of the Empress "Sisi" - Empress Elisabeth of Austria, on the 100th anniversary of her death, and researched also, her great love of dogs, She was kind enough to allow me to use some of the paintings of Great Danes, owned by the Empress, on my website. They looked to be Mantles. The Empress actually had hundreds of animals of all sorts.

Lizzie


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## MeadowRidge Farm (Feb 16, 2012)

I remember hearing about Mrs. Pratt, and all the problems she was having, that all happened way after we purchased our first dog with those lines, we purchased our first one with the Meistersinger lines back in the very early 70's. If I remember right..her problems started back in 1999. and who really knows..she might have been getting forgetful....she was really old at the time.All I know it is was a shame after so many years of being so dedicated to the breed and producing so many champions, that she would end up having suspensions from AKC.. She had some of the most beautiful Danes around and all of those I had ever seen always carried the very noble look, that I loved and those dogs all seemed to carry the old German and Europearn lines which I know Mrs. Pratt did have. So many of the good lines are now dead.

I think the fad term "California Danes" came into play because, it seemed to be in California where they started to breed the Danes to look like this and the judges first started to "like" the look.I havent heard the term used for years, by anyone we know with Danes.

Lizzie, sorry, but I dont remember hearing or seeing that site. I bet it sure was interesting..


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## ohmt (Feb 16, 2012)

I would pick my unregistered, rescue German Shepherd over any of those that were showing anyday. Their back ends were AWFUL! I also have no knowledge of the breed other than the rescue I have, but my goodness. People actually breed for that? My boy has a beautiful back end and my vet has commented many times on how nice his hips are, especially for his age and size. The back ends i saw at the show must make for some nasty hips at an early age.


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## bevann (Feb 16, 2012)

I'm not a Dane breeder, but I have a close, long time friend who is a breeder and judge,Marilyn Draper.I went with her to get 1 of her early Danes.I was around showing my Shepherds when Lina Basquette of Honey Hollow danes in PA was showing .She was a former Zigfield Girl and in the ring with her Danes she thought she was back on stage,but she could show a Dane.My friend bought her first Dane(a beautiful harlequin) from Lina but he had hardpad.Her next Dane came from Anna Mary Kauffman of Mountdania Kennels in PA.I held the pup on my lap from Lancaster,PA area home to DE.At that time Mary Anna was breeding harlequins,but there were so many mismarks in a letter it was not good.Mantles were not allowed in the ring and were called Boston marked.She eventually switched to all fawns and brindles as did my friend.Marilyn just got 2 pups born in Alaska sired by 1 of her champions who has been dead for many years.She has semen frozen from several of her other dogs.The brindle bitch from this litter will later be bred to another Champion of hers from frozen semen.Her kennel prefix is Dellago.I am always amazed that the frozen semen can produce pups so many years after the dog is dead.I want to ask her to see the official AKC pedigree to see what it looks like.Wish I had my German Shepherd's semen frozen before it was too late to do so.


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## Lizzie (Feb 16, 2012)

You bring up some old friends of mine, Bevann. I knew those breeders and many of their dogs. I remember when Lina was showing, Honey Hollow Broadway Jim and so many others. Lina's half sister was Marge Champion. Everyone interested in dance and movies, knows that name. She was quite a gal, and married I believe, 9 times. She made many movies and it was said, she was Adolph Hitler's favourite actress.

Even though I do not like the way the breed has unfolded in recent years, the names of those famous breeders of old, still bring a tear to my eye.

By the way Bevann, is your friend a relative of Nancy Carol Draper by chance?

Lizzie


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## bevann (Feb 16, 2012)

Not sure if Marilyn Draper is related.She was originally from NJ(maiden name Palumbo)and married Frank Draper a local Milford,DE man whose parents were good friends of my parents.The Draper family has been in this area since colonial times.DELAWARE is part of the Del Mar Va Peninsula and surrounded by water on 3 sides and in colonial times only accessible by boat or to come south from Philadelphia.Most of us here for generations are related to each other.It will be nice to see her Dane pups in the ring.She has sold dogs to several people in Scandinavian countries and has even judged over there.She has beautiful Danes with excellent temperaments.


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## tagalong (Feb 18, 2012)

Working GSDs (think Schutzhund etc.) do not have those wonky back ends and extreme angles... the pasterns on that Herdng Group winner were also awful. I understand that is the breed standard and all - but it is structurally weak looking. Yuck.



> Of course I had hoped the Brussels Griffon had taken the Terrier group


That would have been something - as the BG is in the Toy Group...



..but I wish the BG or the Affie had won Toy.

I was rooting for the Smooth Fox Terrier in the terrier group - he went Group 1 last year - Group 2 this year was still pretty good...

For BIS I would have gone with the Doberman or the Kerry.


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## Reble (Feb 19, 2012)

Yes seen the German Shepard and thought of many years ago, when I bred unregistered Scotch Collies, had two not one call me from the U.S. during my 13 years of breeding them, asking if they where registered and answered no.

They still wanted to buy a couple of my puppies to put back in their blood line, to bring in the old style collie.

Knowing what they indented to do, refused them, but one did explain that they where having problems in their bloodline of the Scotch Collies.

Sad but I guess, some dogs have not improved but have had the opposite effect.


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## anoki (Feb 20, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Working GSDs (think Schutzhund etc.) do not have those wonky back ends and extreme angles... the pasterns on that Herdng Group winner were also awful. I understand that is the breed standard and all - but it is structurally weak looking. Yuck.


Yes, it is the BREED STANDARD that is the reason why judges keep putting up dogs that look that way. Someone somewhere down the line decided 'that' was the way they 'should' look, and well, here we are today! It is funny to hear other breed people talk about GSDs at shows...there aren't too many that understand that rear end....yet all the GSD people don't seem to see it....

There are those that still breed more 'upright' dogs, and there are those that SHOW them and do well, but they are few and far between. I saw one being shown and the comments ringside were 'that shouldn't be in the ring'. It was a sounder moving dog than the others in the ring.

Conformation people (horse, dog whatever) get very hung up on angles, and sometimes go overboard on those angles, creating animals that are not able to physically do what they were originally bred to do. They may win because of WHO they are, and others interpret that as what the animal 'needs' to look like, and well, it's the whole snowball effect.

I didn't end up catching Westminster because I was away....and apparently the Cardigan that won was a huge upset. Even I was surprised as the BOS won the National last year, and she is a really nice example of the breed. But, that's judging....




One person's opinion. Each individual's interpretation of the breed standard can vary greatly....otherwise it would get pretty darn boring.

~kathryn


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