# RH Factor and foaling



## Dairygirl (Apr 30, 2006)

I have learned a hard lesson today and need to find out more info on the RH Factor problem in horses. This happen with one of my APHA paint mares but was told it can happen with any breed. She foaled a big pretty filly yesterday and the foal was all white so I assumed a LWO foal. So I petted and did what I could for the foal all day. Well late she passed stool but the foal was getting weaker at this point so I realized this wasn't the problem. So my neighbor's aunt who is a vet came over to help me with the foal. She took some blood from the foal to test for this, mean time she tubed her and we give her some colosturms and milk from mom. After this she looks over and sees the blood had separated. Well this finished off the foal. With in the hour she died. She told me I would have this problem unless I found a stallion that she is compatable with. Well this info hitting me all at once with me beating myself up in my mind the whole time that I could have avoided all of this if I had just only known about testing the blood right off, so I only remember bits and pieces of what she said.

Now my question is I need more info. I know how the blood and the mothers milk doesn't mix. I just need to know what to test for or maybe if someone knows of a site that can better tell me how to find more info on how to get the right stud for her in the future.

This mare and I have had a hard road together and I'll never part with her. I can't ride so a riding mare is out. She had broken her skull last year to make this story short and I was told she wouldn't live or if she did she would have brain damage. So after a long road of keeping meds in her and treating her, she managed to carry this foal and keep it past all the months of meds she was on that I was told that she would loose the foal just from that only but didn't. This mare has beaten so many odds and now this. What a kick in the teeth.

Any advise would be appreciated.


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## lyn_j (Apr 30, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt]The RH factor comes into play with humans when the mother is RH negative and the father is positive and the baby is positive.....the mothers body set up antibodies AGAINST the baby. With the horses, the mothers colostrum is what the foal cant have..... you would have to milk out the mare till past the colostrum period before letting the foal back on if the foal is positive. If you can test horses like people to find their blood type and RH only breed her to another RH negative stud because then the baby will also be the same type. Basically if the baby could have had a transfusion first, when you tubed the baby with the colostrum thats what did her in.[/SIZE]

Silverwind has experience with this , She has a mare or had one that they had to be there when the foal was born to keep it from nursing. Maybe she will reply here.

Lyn


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## Dairygirl (May 1, 2006)

Thanks for the info. Not too many people must know about this subject. My best advise is you better learn or you can end up being just like me and loose a life because you just didn't know.

Thanks for the response Lyn!


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## Marnie (May 1, 2006)

I was looking for the place where I had this written down but can't locate it. But aren't you supposed to take a few drops of blood from the placenta and put it in some of the colostum and if it separates, the foal shouldn't have the colostrum. I admit, I never do it and I"m not sure these instructions are right. It seems most of the older breeders just don't come on the forum to much any more so it's sometimes hard to get some answers on serious problems.


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## rabbitsfizz (May 1, 2006)

Isoerythrolysis.

Perhaps Mary Lou could put this in the "Best of..." section to save me writing it out every time.

Take some of the navel blood of the foal and mix it with the mares milk.

If they separate you need to muzzle the foal IMMEDIATELY.

It is ONLY the colostrum that the foal is incompatible with, but it is best to keep the foal off for 48 hours to be safe.

You will need the Vet to take blood from the mare to spin for antibodies or have a stash of frozen colostrum from a known compatible mare.

The foal will need to be tubed and fed hourly for 48 hours.

After this it can be let back onto the mare as normal (provided the Vet is OK with this.

The mare, obviously, has to be milked out.

This is more common than you think- what a shame you did not post earlier.

I am very sorry you lost the foal, very sorry, BUT.....

I have to say, though, you should not have been breeding an untested Paint mare to an untested Stallion, as LWO is very easily avoided, as is death from Isoerythrolysis.


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## Miniv (May 1, 2006)

I'm so sorry you learned this lesson the heartbreaking way........






Yes, the test is to mix a few drops of blood from the cord, once the placenta has broken away, and add a few drops of mom's colostrum. If it seperates (curdles) you need to find a different source of colostrum for the foal.

Milk the mare out for up to 3 days before allowing the foal back on her. People will sometimes muzzle the foal during that time. When we had the situation arise for us, we kept the mare and foal together in a stall to insure bonding, but built a seperation between them with straw bales. We then hand fed the foal until the mare's regular milk came in.

When it happened to us, we realized something was wrong because each time the foal nursed she would become lethargic. It took only a couple of nursings to make us realize we needed to jump in there and take action.

Thank you for posting about your sad experience. Hopefully it will save another little one's life.

Blessings,

MA


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## Dairygirl (May 1, 2006)

WEll I'm sorry to say not all of us have so much experience in everything like others. I'm new to the horse breeding by only 5 years and have learned a lot of things. I have NEVER had a problem like this. This was a first time baby for my mare and stud. Which will be their last together. You take risk breeding with any horse. You have one problem one way or the other. My mistake was assuming I had a LWO foal and not testing for the RH Factor right off the bat. I have now learned that lesson. Now all I can do is pass on my experiences to others so they can learn from what happen to me. I'm a responsible breeder and take very good care of my animals. If I had felt that my horses life or the foals life would have been in danger I wouldn't have bred them to start with. So I don't believe judging me for not testing all my horses for everything is the lesson learned but if it will make someone go out and spend the extra money to do so then I'm happy for them and wish them luck.

Hopefully this will help others to avoid future problems.


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## lyn_j (May 1, 2006)

[SIZE=14pt]Dairygirl, speaking for myself, I wasnt judging you at all. Just trying to give you an answer. Most people would never think to check this. I wouldndt have either if my vet hand not suggested it years ago. He was doing it and I asked him why and he told me. Thats how I knew! I didnt realize that before and I am an RH negative mom who had to have rhogam when my kids were born!Lyn[/SIZE]


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## Christine (May 1, 2006)

some of us are arrogant in assuming that it is our need to inform others in what they should know or do if they breed their animals but with the backing of some other farms feel it their duty to bash others in the time of need. To teach others do you beat them with a stick or patiently and calmly show and talk to them to teach, I know if school teachers thought this way we would not have a lot of educated adults walking around. I have heard of this but like Lyn must admit I have not tested my mares either.

So you have bred this same mare and stallion before and this has not happened, did not know that could happen good to know.


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## Dream (May 1, 2006)

Dairygirl,

I am very sorry for your loss. Putting the LWO issues aside...let's talk about the condtion that killed your baby.

*Neonatal isoerythrolysis * (NI) means destruction of the foal's own red blood cells. The disease is characterized by signs of acute anemia.

Let's start by eliminating the use of the term RH factor. That is a human term. Red blood cells can carry antigens (markers) on their surface which in part determines a horse's blood type. There are 8 different blood groups with 32 different possible markers. Qa and Aa are the markers most frequently implicated in NI. Horses can be Qa-, Qa+, Aa-, Aa+. Negative means the marker is not there, positive means it is.

During late pregnancy mares are exposed to the blood of the foals they are carrying through the placenta. If the mare is negative, bred to a stallion that is positive and carrying a foal that got that + antigen from the sire her body will recognize these blood cells as "foreign" and start to form antibodies to kill the "foreigners" off. This will not affect the foal she is currently carrying but these antibodies will be with her for life. In subsequent pregnancies she could have an NI foal.

The following things are required for an NI foal...

1. The mare must have the antibodies to the antigen carried by the stallion (she has been sensitized to his blood type).

2. The foal must inherit the stallion's blood antigen.

If these 2 things happen then the foal will ingest colostrum containing antibodies to its own red blood cells. When it nurses and these antibodies are absorbed into its bloodstream the antibodies will proceed to attack and kill the foal's red blood cells leading to anemia.

Therefore every negative mare is at risk for producing an NI foal. Stallions must be tested to see if they are positive for any of the markers. Maiden mares are unlikely to have NI foals (unless they have received a blood transfusion in the past) because they need to have been pregnant before to have formed antibodies. NI is more common in mule foals because donkeys all carry a factor that is foreign to horses. Many breeders will cross negative mares with positive stallions because it's a breeding they really want. They must be sure to be present at birth to determine if the foal must be prevented from nursing. Don't forget that even with this cross there is a chance that the foal will inherit the mare's blood type and be fine.

Clinical signs in NI foals can appear from 5 hours to 5 days of age and vary depending on the severity and rapisity of onset of anemia. Signs can range from increased resp rate and lethargy to pale, yellow mucous membranes, increased heart rate, depression anorexia and collapse.

Treatment ranges from supportive care to repeated blood transfusions again depending on severity of anemia.

I hope you find this information helpful.


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## Dairygirl (May 1, 2006)

Thank you so much for the info. A couple more questions. This mare was a maiden. A three year old. When these babies are born can they have color or is it always going to be like this one? This foal was solid white except for a black spot on the nose and some black on the tail. That was it. Blue eyes and all. This was the reason why I assumed it was a LWO..

Also even if I find a positive stud in the future she can still have a chance of producing another foal like this one?50/50 shot?

Right now the plan is not to breed her. She is a wonderful halter mare but after all we as a team have been thru, I just don't want to disappoint her again. I wanted to save the foal more for her than ever myself.


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## Dream (May 1, 2006)

That's very strange that she was a maiden. Are we sure it was a case of NI? I'm not sure when her previous exposure was. The test with the blood and colostrum should be done before the ingestion of colostrum. I wouldn't take lethal white off the table. Did you see any other signs of NI? Jaundice for example? There is a small possibilty that she had enough time to form antibodies from this pregnancy but that is rare.

The white colour has nothing to do with this condition. They can be any colour.

What you would need to find is a negative stallion. She shouldn't produce an NI foal from a negative stallion.


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## Mona (May 2, 2006)

I am so sorry for your loss. I am wondering if perhaps the foal was a LWO. I know you said she ended up having a bowel movement, but I also remember reading somewhere that a LWO foal can have an initial bowel movement, but once that(the meconium) is cleared out, nothing more makes it through from the belly.

Do you by chance still have the foal? If so, take a mane hair sample(about 50 hairs, and send it off for a LWO test. It is inexpensive, only $25 and it might tell you more one way or the other, about what happened to your foal.

Again, I am so sorry for your loss.


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## rabbitsfizz (May 2, 2006)

If the foal were to have been LWO the only thing you would need to do to prevent this ever happening again is make sure the stallion you breed to is LW Negative.

Tested.

There is then NO chance of a LWO foal.


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## Dairygirl (May 2, 2006)

Dream said:


> That's very strange that she was a maiden. Are we sure it was a case of NI? I'm not sure when her previous exposure was. The test with the blood and colostrum should be done before the ingestion of colostrum. I wouldn't take lethal white off the table. Did you see any other signs of NI? Jaundice for example? There is a small possibilty that she had enough time to form antibodies from this pregnancy but that is rare.
> 
> The white colour has nothing to do with this condition. They can be any colour.
> 
> What you would need to find is a negative stallion. She shouldn't produce an NI foal from a negative stallion.


The neighbor's Aunt who is a vet told me that the blood would separate if she was RH Factor. So she drew blood and put it in a red top tube, mean while waiting on results she tubed her with colosturm and mothers milk. The blood sit for over 10min. She looks at it and it had looked settled. Don't know if it was suppose to or not but she said it was RH Factored. What got me and I didn't say anything because she was helping but why would you, if your testing for this, tube the foal with milk from mom if you suspect RH?

The foal did have light green eyes and pale gums, but this was right before she worked on her. Which my septic foal had the same signs as far as the Jaundice goes.



Mona said:


> I am so sorry for your loss. I am wondering if perhaps the foal was a LWO. I know you said she ended up having a bowel movement, but I also remember reading somewhere that a LWO foal can have an initial bowel movement, but once that(the meconium) is cleared out, nothing more makes it through from the belly.
> 
> Do you by chance still have the foal? If so, take a mane hair sample(about 50 hairs, and send it off for a LWO test. It is inexpensive, only $25 and it might tell you more one way or the other, about what happened to your foal.
> 
> Again, I am so sorry for your loss.


Well the bowel was a runny brown color. Most of the meconium I have seen is black or dark, but I thought hey we have poop so we need to figure something else out. I do still have her blood in the tube. I put it in the icebox, I guess good thing I did. Should be able to use her blood for the test, right?


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## rabbitsfizz (May 2, 2006)

I'm sorry I do not understand. The test for this is to put milk with the foals blood and watch to see if it separates- so...did the Vet do this, as this is the only relevant test that can be done on the spot.

If this was not done, basically, you had a Vet, you should not be beating yourself up over losing the foal if you had bad advice/treatment.

As said, this is not RH factor, this is Isoerythrolysis, which is different, and No, had it been this then the treatment given was completely wrong and could well have contributed to the foals demise.

I do not want to stirr things up but I think you should be trying to find out what caused the foals death as it seems to me you have a pretty good case for compensation, here.

If it was LWO then the responsibility is yours entirely- had the mare been tested or bred to a negative stallion then this would not have happened and no Vet on earth could save the foal, and should not have tried.

If it is Isoerythrolysis then the diagnosis and the treatment were both incorrect, and should, for the sake of other foals possibly suffering form this problem, be queried seriously, as, had it been diagnosed correctly there is no reason why the foal should not have survived.

I understand you wanting to put this behind you and move on, it is a very sensible approach BUT what about the next foal this Vet misdiagnoses and then mistreats???


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## Minimor (May 2, 2006)

It doesn't sound like the right way to test for Neonatal isoerythrolysis, and it's definitely odd to tube with colostrum from the mare while waiting on the test results for NI.

Poop as you describe also doesn't sound like the foal was LWO.

Green eyes & pale gums sound like the foal had septicemia? Was there any jaundice (yellow?) or just an anemic paleness?

If you knew for sure it was NI (and I thought that was virtually unheard of in a maiden mare) then to avoid it in future you must bloodtype mare & then breed her only to a stallion of the same bloodtype.

I'm so sorry you've had to go through this!


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## Dairygirl (May 2, 2006)

You know I had brought it up to her about the blood and colosturm test and she told me this was the way to do it. Let the blood sit and if it settled it was a RH foal and I would need to get a transfussion asap. I thought it kind of strange that she drew blood to test but if you think that is what your problem is why tube feed the foal moms milk?

I have the blood from the foal so I'm going to research on where I can send the sample and find out what happened. She may have not been either and just septic? Signs of my mini colt was the same but the foal went to 3 days old before he showed signs.

This lady is a vet out of Texas and I only know her first name. She did tell me she had a vet tech who had about 30 mini horses that shows, north Texas area at my best guess.

Just makes me sad!


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## Dream (May 2, 2006)

Ok hang on a second...you're saying the vet put the foal's blood in a red top and waited for it to "settle"? Any blood will separate in a red top. It's called clotting and that what blood does when you don't mix it with anticoagulant (ie purple top). If you're sure that's what she did then she did not test for NI.

If all you have is that red top then you are limited in what you can test from it as it is now a clot with serum not blood.


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## CheyAut (May 3, 2006)

Can someone give more info on how to test?

I understand the blood and the milk, but what do you put it in? Would, say, a dixie cup work? Or???

And do you try to mix it up, or just put them together, or one on top of the other?

If they separate, is it something you see CLEARLY, without really having to take a GOOD look at it?

Thanks!

Jessica


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## KarenB (May 3, 2006)

First, I am very sorry to hear you lost a foal. It's always heartbreaking. I won't even try to guess what went wrong with your foal. I do know that I had a colt two years ago who was thought to be NI. He was born healthy and strong. His NI symptoms were late onset. He was the third foal for the stallion & mare. He was hospitalized for nearly two weeks, and received lots of supportive care, and he eventually recovered completely. The vets recommended this web site for more information on NI.

UC Davis NI Information

I rebred my mare and stallion last year, and we did the blood typing and NI screen. It all came back fine, and they saw no problems with her colostrum. She just foaled a beautiful buckskin filly 3 days ago, and based on all the test results, I did not withhold the foal from her colostrum. So far, the foal is doing great. I would have done the blood from the cord in the colostrum to check even further, but the mare was sneaky and had her filly when I wasn't watching.

We never had confirmation that the previous foal was NI. Perhaps he had something else going on that looked like NI. I hope this information will help you.


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## Dairygirl (May 3, 2006)

Dream said:


> Ok hang on a second...you're saying the vet put the foal's blood in a red top and waited for it to "settle"? Any blood will separate in a red top. It's called clotting and that what blood does when you don't mix it with anticoagulant (ie purple top). If you're sure that's what she did then she did not test for NI.
> 
> If all you have is that red top then you are limited in what you can test from it as it is now a clot with serum not blood.


Yes I am sure it was a red top because that is how I knew what to call it. She kept telling her daughter to hand her one. I didn't know that but I had asked my husband that if blood was to set, wouldn't it settle any way? He didn't know either.

Well then what I'll do is test Red and Blackie for both and see what I come up with on that end. Thanks


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## Nancy G (Jun 29, 2006)

We had one foal with this factor. Our vet said to never breed these two again, so we didn`t. We did however breed her to other stallions and had no problems. Our vet didn`t suggest getting the other boys tested??? But, thankfully the foals were fine. I didn`t thing this was a big problem, guess I was wrong.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Aug 6, 2006)

ANY foal could react to its mother's milk. We suggest that every single mare get tested (we use the lab mentioned earlier) before foaling. Its not common, but when it happens you have almost no warning, and its fatal if missed. I've only seen it with two mares, and both had a history of it in the past. The care is pretty easy, you just use frozen colostrum and prevent the foal from nursing in the first 24 hours, bottle feeding every hour. After the first 24 hours the mare's colostrum is gone, and the foal can safely nurse. There is no reason to not breed back a mare as long as you moniter the foaling and know how to take care of things. Its just a higher maintance issue


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