# Putting Weight On/Maintaining Hard Keeper



## Little Wolf Ranch (Aug 13, 2012)

Okay so I know this isn't about a Miniature Horse BUT I still would like your help with figuring this out, considering this is the biggest and most knowledgeable horse group that I know.

"Shadow" is my TB/Arabian/TWH cross gelding who stands approximately 16.2hh tall and is 8 years old. Very calm boy, very rarely see him running anywhere, loves to walk. I purchased him as a 2y/o and he has been a hard keeper from the get go. Sold him as a 5 y/o due to college then bought him back as a 7y/o. They had let him get emaciated and I have been putting weight on since. He has had his teeth floated and he is dewormed once a month on a regular rotation between Zim. Gold, plain Ivermectin and Equimax.

I have tried several brands of feed and the only thing he likes is the Omolene 10/10 and the local 12% sweet feed. He won't touch any pelleted feed or senior feed at all. He used to be getting 5 lbs 12% sweet feed AM and PM and since I have just found out I will be moving him and my QH in 45-60 days, I have changed his feed ration to try to pack on the pounds. He wasn't on any grass, just twice daily feedings of fescue hay so this is his new feeding schedule....

He is currently getting the following:

MORNING FEEDING


2.5 lbs Omolene 10/10

2.5 lbs 12% Sweet feed

1 lb Amplify

1 scoop weight builder


Then turned out on lush green grass until dinner time

EVENING FEEDING


2.5 lbs Omolene 10/10

2.5 lbs 12% Sweet feed

1 lb Amplify

1 scoop weight builder

2 large flakes coastal bermuda hay

as much fescue hay as he will eat


Should this surfice in producing the results I wish to see in him? He already has a glossy coat and looks pretty good but I guess being part TB, he could use some weight on his ribs on over his topline/hip bone. He has a lot of muscle, but just needs more weight in those areas.

QUESTIONS:


Should I break the amount of feed up into THREE daily feedings?

And if so how much would you feed per feeding?

I thought about adding corn oil as well, would that assist in weight gain?


Where he is moving to will be at the Naval Base's stables but they only have pasture board available as of right now. She said they have plenty of lush grass and about 75% of the horses on straight pasture need grazing muzzles on to keep from being obese. In the winter they free-feed on hay 24/7 on top of the pasture availability. I do have a way to seperate them for their twice daily feedings but I am wondering - should the 24/7 access to grass aid in keeping weight on him?

_*PLEASE NOTE ABOUT PICTURES:*_

- the first one is when I first got him back home Summer of last year

- the second one was taken Spring of this year, still in his little amount of "winter woolies"


----------



## chandab (Aug 13, 2012)

Anyway you can add some alfalfa to his diet? Whether its hay, cubes or pellets; alfalfa would probably be a fairly safe way to add more weight without adding more grain to his diet. I know some people shy away from alfalfa, I'm one of them for normal horses (or easy keepers), but for a horse that needs weight, its a very good way to get there.

Yes, a third meal daily would likely help; just divide his total grain amount by 3 instead of two to get the amount to feed him each meal.


----------



## targetsmom (Aug 13, 2012)

Alfalfa cubes is what I would suggest. I would soak some and add to the grain. Most horses love them and they add some water, but also protein and calcium so they help prevent ulcers. Does he eat his grain well? If he is a poor eater, then I would suspect ulcers. Alfalfa can help but he would need treatment too.

If the grass where he is going is that lush I would introduce it very slowly. Spoken by one who had a big horse founder on grass.


----------



## Little Wolf Ranch (Aug 13, 2012)

He eats all his grain well, no signs/symptoms of ulcers - thank goodness!

In preparation for him being on the lush grass, I've finally convinced the father-in-law to let me have him graze during the day on the lush grass in the pasture that isn't yet fenced in.

WILL GRASS HELP KEEP HIS WEIGHT UP IF HE IS ON IT 24/7? I would love to reduce his grain once he gets up there because I am spending a fortune so if I can cut it back some that would immensly help our budget, but if he needs it, he'll get it.

As far as the alfalfa - for some reason he wont touch it, soaked or dry, pellet or cubes. I've tried sneaking them in before but he won't even touch his grain if he smells any of it in there.




Anything else that would work well?


----------



## chandab (Aug 13, 2012)

It doesn't have the nutrition of alfalfa, but have you tried beet pulp? Its pretty good for putting on weight, and much safer to feed than lots of sweet feed. Beet pulp can be upto like 40% of the total diet, although, I don't think too many horses would eat that much of it, especially soaked (it makes a big meal once soaked).

I don't think I"ve ever had a horse turn their nose up at alfalfa, but that could explain why he won't eat pelleted feeds, many are alfalfa-based.

Grass 24/7 should help him gain and hold weight. I have three fatties out to pasture, that can testify to the benefits of grass; all they get is pasture (all are stock horse breeds, so slightly different needs than a TB-cross).


----------



## mydaddysjag (Aug 13, 2012)

If your using farnam weight builder, I never had luck with that. Ive had WAY better results with even just corn oil, slowly built up to 1 cup am and 1 cup pm for a super hard keeper. I starter her at 1/4c per day and built up from there, reccomended by the vet. Ive also use a supplement called cool calories and another called fat cat, both work a lot better than weight builder, and when I was feeding them, were cheaper.

I have to admit, alfalfa is a big staple here to keep weight on the hard keepers. Right now everyone I have is willing to eat the second and third cut baled alfalfa I have, but in the past Ive had horses snub their nose at it. Those horses ended up getting small amount of alfalfa pellets mixed into their grain mix, slowly upping it until they didnt notice. If they wouldnt eat even with just 1/4 cup alfalfa pellets in their feed, honestly I would mix molasses, cherry powdered jello, applesauce etc into their food to entice them to try it. Once they start eating it, they usually dont mind it. Its the initially getting them to eat it thats sometimes hard. Darn snobs.

What had worked good for me for weight gain my 23 year old appendix mare was mixing half shredded beet pulp, half alfalfa cubes, and a handful of sweetfeed on top of that to convince her to eat it. She was also on a grain called blue seal vintage senior (now named sentiniel senior) it was extruded and she loved it, but I know you said your boy is picky.

I admit, I dont know much about fescue hay, whats the average protein content of it? How does it compare calorie wise to other hays? A top quality high cal moderate protein hay would be my first plan of action, beetpulp/alfalfa mash if you can find a way to convice him to eat it (it took me 3 weeks to get a horse to eat it once, but I stayed persistant), and I would replace the weight builder with even just corn oil, or cool calories or fat cat. TSC actually carries both of them now, you used to have to order it online.

Im one of those unlucky people who have horses who dont gain weight on pasture, my minis and pony right now are out atleast 12 hours a day, in addition to receiving hay and grain, and Im actually getting ready to increase grain to put a little weight on for fall and winter, they arent too skinny, but are leaner than I would like for winter.


----------



## kaykay (Aug 14, 2012)

If he was mine I would get him off the sweet feed and the omolene and put him on a good complete feed like equine sr


----------



## LindaL (Aug 14, 2012)

We have several horses here that are hard keepers...and have tried several different things to get weight on them. Right now, mine are on a Equine Jr./soaked beet pulp/alfalfa hay diet. I see a tiny improvement, but not enough and still think they need a little something extra to give them that weight across their topline/hips bones. I have tried to add more beet pulp, but they will get "full" and not eat it and after a few hours in our hot sun it will get rancid, so I don't like to let it just sit there in the bucket.

So, I am at a loss like you as to what to try....


----------



## kaykay (Aug 14, 2012)

Also Equine Body Builder is a great product. Pricey? Yes! Worth it? Yes! Especially if you need to get weight on quickly before winter or a show


----------



## Little Wolf Ranch (Aug 14, 2012)

_*If your using farnam weight builder, I never had luck with that. Ive had WAY better results with even just corn oil, slowly built up to 1 cup am and 1 cup pm for a super hard keeper. I starter her at 1/4c per day and built up from there, reccomended by the vet.*_

It has been putting some weight on my fathers recent purchase, an emaciated 14.1hh spotted saddle mare but I don't believe it is helping Shadow at all. We have tried it with him before he got his teeth floated with no results, but I thought we would try it again since he had his teeth floated.

_*If he was mine I would get him off the sweet feed and the omolene and put him on a good complete feed like equine sr *_

To my understanding the Omolene is a comlete feed? Atleast that's what I am getting from the bags instructions......unfortunately he won't touch any senior feeds either.....I've spent weeks and hundreds of $$$ trying to find something he will eat and this mixture is the only thing he will touch minus Strategy, but since he coliced while he was on it last time, I am steering away from it.

_*I have tried to add more beet pulp, but they will get "full" and not eat it and after a few hours in our hot sun it will get rancid, so I don't like to let it just sit there in the bucket.*_

Tried beet pulp on him as well......guess what? What little bit I could get him to eat, which I don't think was enough to make a difference, he would pick around it and even when he did manage to eat it all, no results were seen.

_*Also Equine Body Builder is a great product. Pricey? Yes! Worth it? Yes! Especially if you need to get weight on quickly before winter or a show *_

I literally JUST ordered it from SmartPak this morning as soon as I read your comment.....seems to be a good thing to put them on. How much would you feed for him? I taped him last night (yeah I know, not that accurate but gives me a decent idea since I have no other way to do it) and he was at about 920lbs and I would like him to be 1100 to 1200lbs. so how much should I give per meal?

Does anyone else have good/great results with Body Builder?


----------



## JMS Miniatures (Aug 14, 2012)

Ok first of all are you sure its Omolene 10/10 and not 100? I didn't know they had one that was 10/10. The 100 is for your easy keepers and it's not a complete feed. If you have to stick with Omolene I would look into getting the 400. It has built in roughage, but I wouldn't consider it a complete feed either.

Also letting him have green grass is great but doesn't have that much nutrients. I would personally let him have free choice hay, get a slow feeder hay bag and not let it go empty. Alfalfa would be great if you can get it, if not I would look into adding alfalfa cubes or pellets. If I could I would switch his feed, have you tried SeniorGLO by ADM? ADM also has a product called Healthy GLO, it's a high quality fat supplement. You may want to think about adding that instead of your 12% sweet feed. I don't think mixing both sweet feeds together will do much good. I've used the Farnam Weight Builder in the past with success but if I had to pick would use Healthy Glo.

Also I would deworm him with something else. Zimecterin Gold and EquiMax are basiclly the same and are Ivermecterin. I would deworm him with Strongid and wouldn't hesitate to deworm him with a PowerDose of SafeGuard, but would do it every other month.


----------



## chandab (Aug 14, 2012)

Tybee Tyme Minis said:


> _*If he was mine I would get him off the sweet feed and the omolene and put him on a good complete feed like equine sr *_
> 
> To my understanding the Omolene is a comlete feed? Atleast that's what I am getting from the bags instructions......unfortunately he won't touch any senior feeds either.....I've spent weeks and hundreds of $$$ trying to find something he will eat and this mixture is the only thing he will touch minus Strategy, but since he coliced while he was on it last time, I am steering away from it.


Omolene is a fortified grain; it needs to be fed with hay/pasture (forage). A complete feed would also contain forage, so could be the complete diet no forage needed; Senior feeds are complete feeds (forage and grain all in one bag).

If he doesn't like alfalfa, and doesn't sound like he cares for beet pulp either, that is probably why he won't eat the senior or other complete feeds, they are alfalfa based, and most also have beet pulp.

Have you tried grass hay pellets? Just timothy or orchardgrass pellets or cubes, no alfalfal in the mix. Timothy and orchardgrass have more nutrition that many other grasses, so either might provide more nutrition than the hay you are currently feeding, which is great for chewing and such, ubt might not provide as much as he needs.

If you have one close TSC carries Standlee hay products, and they make both timothy pellets and orchardgrass pellets, they also have timothy cubes. Might be worth a try.


----------



## Little Wolf Ranch (Aug 14, 2012)

_*Ok first of all are you sure its Omolene 10/10 and not 100? I didn't know they had one that was 10/10.*_

That's what it is sold as, it has 10% protein and 10% fat.....?

*Have you tried grass hay pellets? Just timothy or orchardgrass pellets or cubes, no alfalfal in the mix.	Timothy and orchardgrass have more nutrition that many other grasses, so either might provide more nutrition than the hay you are currently feeding, which is great for chewing and such, ubt might not provide as much as he needs.*

I haven't tried grass pellets......so I think I may try that. He's the only one I have that isn't doing well on my hay, so I don't believe I have a poor quality hay. I will look into seeing about the timothy or orchardgrass pellets....any idea about how much should be fed three times per day? I'm adding in a lunchtime feeding to hopefully that will help.

Anyone else have advice about the Body Builder?


----------



## chandab (Aug 14, 2012)

Tybee Tyme Minis said:


> I haven't tried grass pellets......so I think I may try that. He's the only one I have that isn't doing well on my hay, so I don't believe I have a poor quality hay. I will look into seeing about the timothy or orchardgrass pellets....any idea about how much should be fed three times per day? I'm adding in a lunchtime feeding to hopefully that will help.


There probably isn't anything "wrong" with the hay you have, but it might not be enough for him, each horse is an individual and some need more (and TBs are notorious for needing more). Work him up to like a pound each meal and see what that does for him.



> Anyone else have advice about the Body Builder?


 I have only used it once and it was for a mini, so not sure how much, but work him up to the recommended amount and see what it does for him. Give it time to work before increasing it more.


----------



## Boss Mare (Aug 14, 2012)

I didn't read the replies, but my opinion add beet pulp, a lot - I feed it dry and make sure they have a constant supply of water.

Some of my hard keepers get half a bunk full.. With sweet feed added for taste.. Granted they share it, but to most it seems like a large amount.

I never had success with complete or SR feeds, you have to feed so much with little results and most of the time the added filler is beet pulp.

I am also a mini and large horse owner who feeds only alfalfa blend or alfalfa hay.. Or grass hay with straight alfalfa flakes thrown in or alfalfa pellets.

I owned large horses for numerous years before I started having minis 11 years ago.


----------



## wingnut (Aug 14, 2012)

Having a "hard keeper" is such a struggle! My hard keeper also refused nearly every other kind of food (beet pulp, alfalfa cubes, and too many other high calorie/high fat feeds) but Omolene sweet feed. Supplements were tricky because if she found something she disliked in her bucket, she walked away from the whole thing. I swear, even a single teaspoon of oil. I kept her on Omolene 300 which has 16% Protein (not sure of its fat content but I'm sure it's higher than the 10/10 or 100). I would try moving him to that or something along those lines that has a higher protein and higher fat content.

For us the issue was completely unrelated to what we were feeding her after all. If you find yourself *still* not getting him where you'd like him to be, then I'd start researching other potential issues with your vet.


----------



## wildoak (Aug 14, 2012)

Yes, Body Builder is a great product! I've used it on show horses to help fill them out, and last summer used it on an under weight mini mare. We never figured out why she lost weight, blood work was all normal, etc but she just wouldn't eat anything but hay/grass for nearly 6 months. Gastroguard didn't help much, nor did any of the supplements I tried (she wouldn't eat them). I ordered Body Builder for show horses and put her on it as an afterthought. Her appetite picked up within a few days, she gained weight and condition and has held it through a pregnancy and nursing a foal. I think I kept her on the BB for about a month or so, at recommended dosage for her weight. It contains rice bran oil which is something I would suggest on its own if you weren't using the BB. So few of my horses are hard keepers lol, most are the other extreme.

Jan


----------



## mydaddysjag (Aug 14, 2012)

Are you sure the feed isn't country acres 10/10? Its made by purina too, but its their "low end" line, with omolene being their premium sweetfeed, omelene comes in 100, 200, 300 and 400.

Have you by chance tried triple crown senior? I haven't used it but a friend who has race horses feeds it and swears by it for her picky tb's and as much as they are worked, they are in good weight. I think its a little pricey but if you feed less of it to get the desired results, it might not be more expencive in the long run.

Body builder is amazing stuff, I had week by week pictures of an emaciated horse I had on it this past winter. My laptop crashed so unfortionately I lost those pictures. I can't believe I didn't think of it, its worth every penny and I swear you see results in a week. Defiantly use the syringe as it will stick to the sides of your feed pan if you mix or top dress it.


----------



## AnnaC (Aug 15, 2012)

Some of the problem IMO may be the amount you are feeding him in his two feeds. I'm a senior citizen so what I was taught may be out of date now, but we were always told never to feed more than 4lbs of food in any feed on the basis that a horse's stomach could not comfortably hold more than 4lbs at any one time and anything over this amount often just got pushed on through the digestive system without the chance of being 'used' properly - no time to get properly mixed with the stomach juices.

Your horse may not be getting all the goodness out of the food you are giving him. Try dividing the feed to 3 or 4 feeds a day!

As far as keeping him on good grass 24/7 once you move, I think you may be suprised how well he will do. He will be getting a horse's natural food on a 24 hour 'trickle' basis, plus you could offer him his full quota of a balancer if he will eat it, or make sure he has access to a good quality mineral and vitamin block/or loose fed. Then a warm rug as the colder weather starts to come in and a big duvet style puffa type rug for the real cold weather. Hard keepers are not easy to deal with, especially if they are picky feeders too, but sometimes going back to 'nature' can be the answer.

He's a lovely looking boy by the way, plus he is lucky to be back with you! Good luck!


----------



## Little Wolf Ranch (Aug 15, 2012)

_*I didn't read the replies, but my opinion add beet pulp, a lot - I feed it dry and make sure they have a constant supply of water.*_

Yeah he doesn't like beet pulp and I am assuming that since I now know that a lot of complete feeds have beet pulp in it that may be why he doesn't like them!

_*Having a "hard keeper" is such a struggle! My hard keeper also refused nearly every other kind of food (beet pulp, alfalfa cubes, and too many other high calorie/high fat feeds) but Omolene sweet feed. Supplements were tricky because if she found something she disliked in her bucket, she walked away from the whole thing. I swear, even a single teaspoon of oil. I kept her on Omolene 300 which has 16% Protein (not sure of its fat content but I'm sure it's higher than the 10/10 or 100). I would try moving him to that or something along those lines that has a higher protein and higher fat content*_

Struggle? Yeah that's an understatement LOL. Your hard keeper sounds JUST LIKE MINE. I

_*Are you sure the feed isn't country acres 10/10? Its made by purina too, but its their "low end" line, with omolene being their premium sweetfeed, omelene comes in 100, 200, 300 and 400. Have you by chance tried triple crown senior?*_

You may be right, it may be the 10/10. My feed store doesn't have much to chose from as I live in the boonies and the nearest Tractor Supply to me is almost an hour away. I have tried the Triple Crown senior, he won't eat any senior feeds.

_*Body builder is amazing stuff, I had week by week pictures of an emaciated horse I had on it this past winter. My laptop crashed so unfortionately I lost those pictures. I can't believe I didn't think of it, its worth every penny and I swear you see results in a week. Defiantly use the syringe as it will stick to the sides of your feed pan if you mix or top dress it.*_

I am looking forward to using it, it should be here tomorrow or Friday and I plan on taking week-by-week pictures of him while he is on it so I can keep records and see a difference more easily.

_*Some of the problem IMO may be the amount you are feeding him in his two feeds. I'm a senior citizen so what I was taught may be out of date now, but we were always told never to feed more than 4lbs of food in any feed on the basis that a horse's stomach could not comfortably hold more than 4lbs at any one time and anything over this amount often just got pushed on through the digestive system without the chance of being 'used' properly - no time to get properly mixed with the stomach juices.Your horse may not be getting all the goodness out of the food you are giving him. Try dividing the feed to 3 or 4 feeds a day!*_

I was told by my vet that 5 lbs is the maximum per feeding, but I have since switched him over to three meals per day and have divided up the portions.

_*As far as keeping him on good grass 24/7 once you move, I think you may be suprised how well he will do. He will be getting a horse's natural food on a 24 hour 'trickle' basis, plus you could offer him his full quota of a balancer if he will eat it, or make sure he has access to a good quality mineral...*_

Thats what I am thinking, when he was at the trainers and had access to lush pasture he gained a great deal of weight and looked great.....maybe he's one of those that just needs grass? Unfortunately at the end of his training when I asked what she had fed him to make him gain weight, she refused to tell me and after that I found out she used some very unethical means of training - so I don't know what she fed him to make him look that good.


----------



## mydaddysjag (Aug 16, 2012)

Man, thats a shame he wont try the triple crown senior, its actually a sweetfeed, thought he might go for it. Its something like 14% protein and 10% fat I think


----------



## Reble (Aug 16, 2012)

This is one I would recommend not sure if you can get it..

Scroll down to the end of this page called Finishing Touch.. helps gain weight

http://www.masterfee...utrition/Equine

Here is some talk on this product..

http://www.equiman.c...589&type=thread


----------



## Little Wolf Ranch (Aug 16, 2012)

I hated that he wouldn't like the TC senior feed, my older gelding LOVED it and sucked it up like candy!

I looked at that product....I've never heard of that company/brand.....do they carry it in the south?


----------



## Reble (Aug 16, 2012)

Not sure if you meant this product but it looks like can be bought in the U.S.

http://www.masterfeeds.com/view.php?public/Dealers/Masterfeeds_Brand_Dealers/United_States


----------



## Little Wolf Ranch (Aug 16, 2012)

Yeah I've never seen the Masterfeeds brand around here.....maybe they'll have it in VA where I am moving to?


----------

