# Western Country Pleasure Driving



## midnight star stables (Sep 18, 2011)

I just wanted to say that I am a bit disappointed with some of the horses that have been picked in the Western Country Pleasure Driving class at Nationals this year. I have shown nearly exclusively in the Western Country Pleasure Driving division this year in both the Over and Under division. It has been expressed to me and fellow exhibitors by judges (and the rule book) that western horses are not to have headsets higher than above or below the horses' whither. It is JMO, from watching on the online that it doesn't seem as those horses are the one who are winning.

That said, it is quite the achievement to win any title at Nationals, especially in the large performance classes, so Congratulations to those who did!


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## Genie (Sep 18, 2011)

I noticed that


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## Minimor (Sep 18, 2011)

There were some very nice horses in WCP but I thought many of them were just sad. Terrible head carriage--and by that I mean much too low/cranked in. It's fine that a WCP isn't supposed to have the poll more than 3" above the wither level, but I don't read that as meaning the poll should be well below wither level with the face behind vertical, and there seem to be quite a number that do go that way. The ones that I liked the best didn't win but some of them did place.

My observation about the driving horses--and this applies to WCP as well as country and pleasure driving--is that very few of them looked bright and interested. I like a driving horse to be alert and looking like he is enjoying his job. I didn't see that in too many of the driving horses at Nationals. Most looked bored, or tired, with just overall dull expressions.


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## Flying minis (Sep 18, 2011)

Also lots of low, but with NO flexion. There was one last night in the stakes that I considered a true WCP - and it won. But overall it seemed that the winning horses were closer to CP than to WCP.

I also agree with Minimor, not many happy driving horses.


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## Flying minis (Sep 18, 2011)

Wanted to also add, I watched on the web during the week, watching live since Thursday night. HUGE difference! Remember, on the web you get bits and pieces of the performance of each horse. I really can see better why the placings are the way they are when you can watch horses all the way around the ring, and see them in comparison to others. That's where inconsistency and/or errors show up. I really wasn't sure I agreed with a lot of placings when I was watching on the web, but, while I still don't always agree while watching live, in many cases I can see why the placings are the way they are.


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## Performancemini (Sep 18, 2011)

I also agree with minimor. The same problems developed with Quarter horse headsets also. Many were getting horses heads too low and overflexing. Lack of some collection is poor too. But as was stated; I was disappointed that so many of the horses, and especially those placing up high, had incorrect headsets for the class. If their horses are in a gray area between country pleasure and western country; then I guess they have to pick where to show them; but I think the judging should follow the standards set for the class. And my belief is that the class was developed to resemble a Quarter horse type carriage. if judges are going to place the horses with too high, too flexed and too too lowset head carriages; they are defeating the purpose of why the class was developed-and cheating those horses with 'true form' out of the ribbons.:1857272:go ahead


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## mydaddysjag (Sep 18, 2011)

I agree. I watched the class and it brought me back to the big horse world, watching AQHA peanut roller WP horses...


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## Jill (Sep 18, 2011)

I didn't watch the class this year so am not sure what went down. I watched it in 2008 and cheered for the results





These threads bother me because while I know this isn't the intent (I really like the OP), I think they can take the wind out of the sails of the rightfully proud owners of the horses who placed well.


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## dtdminis (Sep 18, 2011)

> But overall it seemed that the winning horses were closer to CP than to WCP


.
I totally agree. It seems like WCP has become an overflow for the people who don't think they can place in CP. In my opinion, I've only seen a handful that fit the category ...

I have an older gelding that has lovely fluid movement and and excellent extension. He consistently wins WCP and Versatility classes on a local level. Before WCP was created, he got his HOF in CP driving the first year I had him. He went National Champion in PMC driving and Top Ten in Ladies CP and Open CP at 2001 Nationals. After watching this show, I think he'd either win hands down at Nationals or come in dead last - I don't know which because I can't figure out what the heck the judges are looking for!

Is there still a place at Nationals for a horse like this???

My guy: Whispering Oaks Sunrise Special


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## dtdminis (Sep 18, 2011)

Ooops ... sorry for posting 2 pics - 1st time trying to include an image in a post. lol


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## Mini Paradise (Sep 18, 2011)

Not sure which classes you are refering to but I just want to say that I drove in my FIRST driving class ever (and yes it was WCP) with 17 other horses. Honestly I was scared to death because it was my first time driving in a show ring. I am a beginner driver. I wasn't planning on driving this year especially since I haven't practiced driving at local shows. I decided to do it for only 2 reasons: for experience and because I thought I had to start somewhere and Nationals was a good place since there's more people in the ring. I didn't go in hoping i'd place, just to stay in the cart and again to get that experience. To my surprise I placed 3rd out of 17 horses. Did it make me feel like a pro? Of course not. I have a lot to learn and most of all practice, practice and more practice. Whether my placing was fair or not, it doesn't matter to me. All that matters is that I did it and I was proud of my horse. The horse I drove hasn't been at Nationals since 2009. Later that day I went in for the second time and placed 8th out of 13 horses. I was a bit more comfortable and confident and again I didn't go in to win. I had fun even though first time was very scary and will surely practice a lot for next year. I also thought that this year's Nationals was judged more fairly than last year in halter classes.


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## Jill (Sep 18, 2011)

My Res. National Grand Champion WCP horse... also a Halter National Champion and HOF, 33" stallion "Destiny"... I prefer the larger picture from the qualifying class regardless of WCP form... I think Destiny looks gorgeous in the larger shot. The smaller pictures are from the Stakes class where he took the Reserve National Grand Champion title.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Sep 18, 2011)

I had issues with the judging in WCP, too. Our horse placed third in Ladies Amateur Under out of 45 on Sunday, then with an even better run on Thursday got the gate out of 30.



The horses that won were definitely country and not western country. I also looked at the judges' placings book and the results were WAY all over the place. Not ONE horse was pinned under all three judges in my one class.


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## mydaddysjag (Sep 18, 2011)

I'll put on my flame suit now, but the class was all over the place. "peanut rollers" to CP horses. Kind of funny, I watched all of the WCP classes because I have a horse who is between country and wcp, and was trying to see if I should change him to western next year. Hard to tell, because I couldnt find much consistency in the classes. It seemed that a lot of people put their country horses in WCP because they thought they couldnt place at nationals in a higher caliber country class.


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## midnight star stables (Sep 18, 2011)

I surely know that my horses are not perfect but I am proud of them.

Here is my A WCPD horse that I showed all year. She has been very consistent and had a great year.






I even consider this mare "extreme" for WCP sometimes. When she is fresh or gets spooked, she becomes more up headed, but lacks the compulsion to maintain that up-headed look. With time, maturity and routine work with trot poles and driving, I feel as though this girlie will go CPD. As she grows into herself more, I will "graduate" her to CPD. She may not "win" as much as she does in WCPD, but I try my best to not show in off type.

Here is my B WCPD horse that I showed all year. And he had a great year too



.






The only horse he could never bet was a little horse from Michigan named Spike, or "Sunswept's Five O'Clock Shadow" owned by Kim Fox. Now I don't have a picture of him, but every time out people commented how ideal WCP he was. And he really is. HOF in his first year driving, and will be Champion All-Star for the Over WCP classes, and I believe he was undefeated all year... And yet he walked away from Nationals with a Top Ten (6th) in Open and a Top Ten (5th) in the Stakes. Sure those are great placings, but this guy truly is an amazing and athletic western style driving horse.

So when I think of WCPD... I do not think of CPD drop-outs, peanut-rollers, or horses behind the bit. I think of a nice moving horse, and a level head set.

I think Judges should really buckle down and take a look at the Western type they want out there. Pick it then stick to it, LOL.

I do NOT mean to step on toes. Jill, I know you are very proud of your boy! And as a Res. National GRAND Champion WCPD horse, *YOU SHOULD BE*!



Even if _I_ were to consider your horse "off type" to what _my__ understanding_ of WCPD is, it is not you that I am calling foul to, but rather the judges who choose off type. I love some of the pictures that you posted of Destiny as they do show his level headset and good movement. And again, it should be noted that ANY title won at a National level is a HUGE deal and the winning owners and trainers should be very proud of the hard work and effort that they invested.








It just appeared to me that the National WCPD was a different class then that of what I had been apart of all year.


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## JMS Miniatures (Sep 18, 2011)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> I had issues with the judging in WCP, too. Our horse placed third in Ladies Amateur Under out of 45 on Sunday, then with an even better run on Thursday got the gate out of 30.
> 
> 
> 
> The horses that won were definitely country and not western country. I also looked at the judges' placings book and the results were WAY all over the place. Not ONE horse was pinned under all three judges in my one class.


Your horse was very nice.

Whats sad is this is the one class thats very detailed and explains what the judges should look for. It just seems like they are just picking who is the better mover, most of the time those were country horses and defintelly 3" above the poll. Its just going to keep happening until the judges stop placing those horses.

http://a8.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-snc7/298868_2009915375554_1473817765_31772056_1610957553_n.jpg

This is my western horse. I'm not saying he should have won or even place but I like how he looks and to me he is a western horse. He was once a National Champion in it when it first came out in 2008 and placed in every class he went into. At least one judge did place him 7th this year.

http://a7.sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/320116_2009916175574_1473817765_31772059_909323716_n.jpg

Then you have my other horse. He isn't a western, he is a country/roadster, they never used him in his roadster class, he's not a pleasure horse to compete in country so we went into western and believe it or not one judge placed him 7th in it, and to be honest he didn't have a good drive. I guarantee you tho if they don't change the way they place and if I really work him to be a western horse he may be hard to beat in the future. He's never been taught to keep his head that low.

Honestly all the driving classes are messed up. Not just western. Did anyone notice country horses are now going into pleasure, and I even seen a western horse or two in pleasure.

Also as far as "peanut rollers" go this class is called western country pleasure, its been turned into a actual western class. IMO these horses head sets need to be atleast level at the pole, nose slightly tucked in but not behind the verticle. It's also not a race. These western horses should be very quiet, relaxed, and calmly go on the rail, stand in the line up quietly and back readily.


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## midnight star stables (Sep 18, 2011)

JMS, you have some nice horses







JMS Miniatures said:


> Honestly all the driving classes are messed up. Not just western. Did anyone notice country horses are now going into pleasure, and I even seen a western horse or two in pleasure.


I seen that in some cases too.

But to be honest, I was REALLY pleased to see that _most_ of the CPD were not too bad with off type this year! I was really pleased to see that.



The performance classes were also very big in all divisions, which is something everyone in the registry should be proud of.



It is wonderful that the performance classes are so strong.

Edited to redirect my original "point". AMHR is a club that I feel lucky to be a part of and just love how diverse our club is becoming.


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## Minimor (Sep 19, 2011)

Jamie--I noticed that too, that there were WCP horses in country, country horses in pleasure, possibly some pleasure horses in country...and I would say that my absolute favorite pleasure horse was actually shown in Park.



> IMO these horses head sets need to be atleast level at the pole, nose slightly tucked in but not behind the verticle


 YES! I agree completely, and Jamie, that photo of your WCP shows the frame that I think is perfect for WCP!


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## stormy (Sep 19, 2011)

I think minimor has hit the nail on the head so to speak, wasn't just a mishmash of types in Western Country Pleasure but in all driving classes. I think no one really knows were to put their horses anymore so we have pleasure in country and country in pleasure and country in western country and park in pleasure...really was confusing some times! In my opinion performance has gained in popularity tremendously...some driving classes had 4 cuts!! We need a rule book describing in detail the requirements for each division, Western country, country, pleasure, park and roadster and require judges to follow those guidelines...but the guidelines are the important piece. Need some knowledgable people to sit down together and define what a division should look like.


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## JMS Miniatures (Sep 19, 2011)

Minimor said:


> Jamie--I noticed that too, that there were WCP horses in country, country horses in pleasure, possibly some pleasure horses in country...and I would say that my absolute favorite pleasure horse was actually shown in Park.
> 
> YES! I agree completely, and Jamie, that photo of your WCP shows the frame that I think is perfect for WCP!


Thank you Minimor!

Here is what I propose AMHR needs to do. Instead of rewriting the dang rule book, create a DVD with some of our best judges and show us exhibitors what they are looking for in this divison and that. Honestly this years Nationals the horses were all over the place, we need some visual aid. I know AMHA did this, not sure how successful it turned out. But I for sure would buy it if AMHR did something like this.


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## JMS Miniatures (Sep 19, 2011)

midnight star stables said:


> JMS, you have some nice horses
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks Desiree, your Dove looks awesome and congrats to your wins.

I think the CPD is starting to get on the right path, or should I say evolved and heading towards the right direction. I still think there were some horses that placed still belong in Pleasure but not too many of those won the class.

The western I just wish I know what direction they are taking, are we now letting the low end country horses win and the pleasure class needs to be fixed, the right horses win but I want to see actual pleasure horses in that class not just horses that have no place to go so they choose the class with the lowest entries.


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## Minxiesmom (Sep 19, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> Here is what I propose AMHR needs to do. Instead of rewriting the dang rule book, create a DVD with some of our best judges and show us exhibitors what they are looking for in this divison and that. Honestly this years Nationals the horses were all over the place, we need some visual aid. I know AMHA did this, not sure how successful it turned out. But I for sure would buy it if AMHR did something like this.


I took the clinic from Big Named Trainer, who showed us the video that AMHA produced. It was explained, in no uncertain terms, just exactly what each style of driving horse should be. Then watching BNT at the Regionals, he completely went against what he taught at the clinic and had Single Pleasure horses showing in Country Pleasure and winning. When confronted about this issue, he then changed the explaination that he originally gave us, now stating that any horse that trotted below level was a Country Pleasure horse. This really just goes to show that it is the judges' fault as to who is getting used in the classes. BNT is going to use which ever horse he knows is going to win! It takes a judge who is not afraid to not use BNT, but to use the horses that fit the description of the class. This is going to step on toes, but I don't care. Make the rules, tell us what you want to see, then stick to it so we are all on the same playing field.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Sep 19, 2011)

Minxiesmom said:


> It takes a judge who is not afraid to not use BNT, but to use the horses that fit the description of the class. This is going to step on toes, but I don't care. Make the rules, tell us what you want to see, then stick to it so we are all on the same playing field.



^^^^^THIS!!!

I went BY THE RULES. My horse was level with little to no arch in the crest, per the rules. Level strides with little flexion. Two distinct trots. Bright relaxed manner. No fussing, had great rail position even with _33_ in the class. Super nice little horse.

He got the gate.

Winner was so flexed his neck was bowed.


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## wildoak (Sep 19, 2011)

I watched - and was in - some of the western cp classes, and saw a pretty wide range of horses placing at the top. We placed sort of mid field in a couple of the over classes with what I consider a true western cp horse. He is young and had some bobbles, I don't have a problem with our placings but would sure like to see some consistency in what they pin.

Jan


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## BuckeyeMiniDriver (Jan 13, 2012)

i just came across all of your responses and I am going to have to say that I drove in four WCP classes at the nationals, having placed 3rd in one WCP class, I was happy but it seemed that the hroses that were being chosen were as some of you had said, looked like country horses. Why are the judges picking country horses in a WCP class? It just ruins everyone elses drive if people drive horses in that class that are really country. The head and kneck should be level at the withers and poll and like the rules say shouldnt exceed higher than 3 inches than the withers. I feel our organization needs to hammer the "true" guidelines for this class into our judges. I dont mean to sound picky or frustrated, but what do you think a "Western country pleasure " driving horse should look like?


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## BuckeyeMiniDriver (Jan 13, 2012)

i just came across all of your responses and I am going to have to say that I drove in four WCP classes at the nationals, having placed 3rd in one WCP class, I was happy but it seemed that the hroses that were being chosen were as some of you had said, looked like country horses. Why are the judges picking country horses in a WCP class? It just ruins everyone elses drive if people drive horses in that class that are really country. The head and kneck should be level at the withers and poll and like the rules say shouldnt exceed higher than 3 inches than the withers. I feel our organization needs to hammer the "true" guidelines for this class into our judges. I dont mean to sound picky or frustrated, but what do you think a "Western country pleasure " driving horse should look like?


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