# Weight matter?



## Seashells (Dec 8, 2010)

I've been told, all the weight is on the wheels...so it doesn't matter how much a person weighs. Plus, I've been told a horse will feel weight of person briefly... while one is entering and exiting cart...or if the person driving rests elbows on their knees (leaning forward) while driving.

 

Please share facts with me, I hear different things, so it would be nice to know the truth. I'm not sure what to believe.


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## RhineStone (Dec 8, 2010)

Well, try it yourself! Gather your buddies and have them step in and out of the cart, lean forward and back and so forth. Then see if there is a difference with pulling a bigger person from a smaller one, and not just on pavement! Where it REALLY matters is in a deeper surface.

Someone saying that it doesn't matter how much a person weighs is trying to justify their own weight. Now that being said, some horses can pull more than others, and that doesn't always have to do with the size of the horse, but it's heart (both physical and mental) and stamina! If your horse is struggling to pull you around (I use the term "you" collectively, not aimed at anyone in particular), get out of the cart!

Actually, the buddy demonstration IS good experience to see where the vehicle does balance with you in it. A particular cart can feel very heavy on it's own, but once you get a body in the seat, it can get light in the shafts.

Myrna


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## disneyhorse (Dec 8, 2010)

If it didn't matter at all, couldn't a mini pull 20 people?

It does matter, and will matter exponentially when the footing gets deep, starting the cart, or if there is any bit of incline. Minis are very strong for their size, but they do have limits.

The better balanced the cart, and the better the footing, the happier the horse is going to be. But a lightweight load will make a big difference, too!

Something to also consider is that if you send your horse to a trainer, if you weigh more than the trainer does, to have them regularly work the horse with additional pounds in the cart. That way, if you show in some classes, the horse will be conditioned to the weight of the heavier person. Some trainers will even train their horses with additional weight at home so the horse performs better at the shows with the lighter weight (such as a lighter cart).

Andrea


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## Seashells (Dec 9, 2010)

Great response, all makes sense.

 

Over the years, I've watched people (all sizes) driving minis, and some horses seem to really struggle. Then, I saw someone in the showring snapping the whip at the little rump to surge into a pull. 

 

I couldn't believe the weight thing is cut and dry. 

 

Thanks!


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## R Whiteman (Dec 10, 2010)

There is a difference between the weight a mini can pull and what is a safe and comfortable load for the horse. The true working load is actually determined by the individual horse and driver combination. I have found that most quality horses can pull about two times their own weight without a problem in most situations. However, that does not mean that one can always drive that same horse through a swamp or in deep sand or down steep hills without making accommodations. The driver needs to constantly assess the driving conditions and make decisions based on the fitness and experience of the horse. I would hope that most will error on the side of the horse. One should take an honest look at the horse and their abilities and then decide what can be safely done within those limits. It just might be a bigger horse is desirable or one with more enthusiasm to accommodate the specific needs of the activities.

There will be many on this forum that advocate the lightest cart possible. I advocate a safe cart that is well constructed and can be balance to the horse and driver combination. It needs to work for both the driver and the horse and the driving conditions most likely to be incurred. That means it fits the horse and you as a driver. A light cart that makes one feel like they have been in an O.B. ward for three hours may not be the perfect choice for me. It might work well for many others. Fortunately, the availability of quality carts for miniature horses has come a long way in the last several years. There are many carts out there that weigh less than 140 lbs. If one truly has to worry about 5 to 10 lbs on a cart then perhaps they should re-think their situation because if so few lbs is going to make that big of difference then perhaps they shouldn't be doing that activity with that particular horse. I have carts from 78 to 135 lbs. Balance seems to be a more important factor than weight.

Just because a smaller horse can pull the load doesn’t always mean that horse is a good choice either. We need to be aware that not everyone understands the work ethic and abilities of these small horses. It is often the perception of others that causes more upheaval that the true condition of a situation. It doesn’t serve our community well to have the appearance of inappropriateness. The "picture " perceived by many people of a very large person in a cart being pulled by a very tiny horse may be the only representation they have to form an opinion. We should be asking,"What message am I sending?"

The bottom line is that each horse and driver combination is unique and that there are some general guidelines to follow, but ultimately it is up to the driver to determine if the load of the cart and driver is too great for the horse in any given situation. I have found that the horse will tell me what I need to know; all I have to do is listen to what it tells me.

As I see it,

Ron


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## RhineStone (Dec 10, 2010)

R Whiteman said:


> Just because a smaller horse can pull the load doesn't always mean that horse is a good choice either. We need to be aware that not everyone understands the work ethic and abilities of these small horses. It is often the perception of others that causes more upheaval that the true condition of a situation. It doesn't serve our community well to have the appearance of inappropriateness. The "picture " perceived by many people of a very large person in a cart being pulled by a very tiny horse may be the only representation they have to form an opinion. We should be asking,"What message am I sending?"


Exactly! Right on, Ron!






The Miniature Horse community has come a LONG way in gaining respect in the driving world, but there is a long ways to go to be totally accepted! ANYTHING that is done with minis that is outside the norm is damaging to the reputation. I know the original topic was weight, but the reputation thing goes much farther than that.



That is one reason why I am such a pain when it comes to "please don't do that with your mini!" For example, if you lead your horse around while it is put to, especially in public, you may think that it is perfectly harmless since nothing is going wrong while the rest of the driving world is shaking their heads thinking (sometimes out loud), "Stupid mini people!". I'm not kidding, I've heard it!



And it makes me totally frustrated because there are quite a few serious mini drivers that have worked A LOT at getting a good reputation for minis!

There. Now you know why I sometimes am such a stick in the mud.





Myrna


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 10, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Exactly! Right on, Ron!
> 
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> 
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Mired in that same mud right along side you Myrna!


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## georgiegirl (Dec 19, 2010)

R Whiteman said:


> There is a difference between the weight a mini can pull and what is a safe and comfortable load for the horse. The true working load is actually determined by the individual horse and driver combination. I have found that most quality horses can pull about two times their own weight without a problem in most situations. However, that does not mean that one can always drive that same horse through a swamp or in deep sand or down steep hills without making accommodations. The driver needs to constantly assess the driving conditions and make decisions based on the fitness and experience of the horse. I would hope that most will error on the side of the horse. One should take an honest look at the horse and their abilities and then decide what can be safely done within those limits. It just might be a bigger horse is desirable or one with more enthusiasm to accommodate the specific needs of the activities.
> 
> There will be many on this forum that advocate the lightest cart possible. I advocate a safe cart that is well constructed and can be balance to the horse and driver combination. It needs to work for both the driver and the horse and the driving conditions most likely to be incurred. That means it fits the horse and you as a driver. A light cart that makes one feel like they have been in an O.B. ward for three hours may not be the perfect choice for me. It might work well for many others. Fortunately, the availability of quality carts for miniature horses has come a long way in the last several years. There are many carts out there that weigh less than 140 lbs. If one truly has to worry about 5 to 10 lbs on a cart then perhaps they should re-think their situation because if so few lbs is going to make that big of difference then perhaps they shouldn't be doing that activity with that particular horse. I have carts from 78 to 135 lbs. Balance seems to be a more important factor than weight.
> 
> ...


Well, said. I like the statement "What message am I sending?". I have a real hard time looking at some of the very large drivers driving a small miniature horse. It is obvious that it is a strain on the horse, whether they think it is, or not. Wouldnt a bigger horse be a better choice? In looking at posted pictures in magazines ,or on boards, it is quite common to see the combo of very large and very small. Not a pleasant picture.


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## ruffian (Dec 21, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Exactly! Right on, Ron!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


So if I read this correctly you are saying that I should not lead my horse when it is hooked to the cart? Is that what "Put to" means? If so, I would much rather be leading a cart out of a barn than sitting in the seat. I can respond much quicker and safer if I can walking beside rather than riding.

" The "picture " perceived by many people of a very large person in a cart being pulled by a very tiny horse may be the only representation they have to form an opinion. We should be asking,"What message am I sending?"

I guess my response to this is, so what? If my horse is comfortable and not under stress or strain, I really don't care what other folks are saying.


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## RhineStone (Dec 21, 2010)

ruffian said:


> So if I read this correctly you are saying that I should not lead my horse when it is hooked to the cart? Is that what "Put to" means? If so, I would much rather be leading a cart out of a barn than sitting in the seat. I can respond much quicker and safer if I can walking beside rather than riding.


No, you should not lead your horse while it is put to (or hooked, or hitched to) a cart. When you are leading a horse in a halter and it acts up, it can swing it's butt sideways while you still have it's head. It can't do that in a cart, so it will force itself forward or swing it's front end. When that happens, no, you can't respond much quicker and safer, because you can't always stay with the cart like you can if you are in the seat. Once the horse frees itself from you, it is dragging a "weapon" that will endanger anyone that happens to be in the way. ADS has a "strong recommendation" that if your horse is put to the cart, a knowledgable driver needs to be in the seat with the reins in hand. It is not a rule, because it would be hard to "police", i.e. during the putting to process. However, if you show up at an ADS show and lead your horse that is put to, you will have the Technical Delegate there in a heartbeat. (I know, I was told myself a number of years ago when I got out of my cart to watch my sister's Cones go while my husband held the horse.



The TD kindly told us that we needed a driver on the box, and that was even before ADS made that a "strong recommendation"!)

I just put a collection of stories on my website of driving accidents, and one was of a driver who decided to lead her horse over a creek. The horse jumped over the creek, but jumped to the left where the driver was, knocking her over, stepping on her leg, and she found out two days later that the shaft broke her rib. Granted, this was with a big horse, so a mini shaft would probably jab into the handler's leg, but carriage drivers don't care if you have a mini or not. Safety is safety regardless of what size your horse is. _That_ is why it is a big deal that mini drivers (as well as all drivers) learn the proper methods of driving, because it reflects on all of us. Here is the link to the Driving Safety page on my website where you can read the whole story as well as others, including an accident with a mini (where incidentally, the driver was out of the cart). I hope to add to it more later. http://rhinestone-ridge.wikispaces.com/Driving+Safety

We put our horses to the vehicles in the indoor arena and drive through the barn aisle. Granted our aisle is 12' wide and 11' tall. And yes, I understand the old "rule" about "don't ride your horse through the barn" because they will become barn sour and "drag" you in there someday, but when we are done working our horses, we don't go directly into the barn. We have them drive around the yard until WE say it is time to go back into the barn/arena. And our horses don't get drove outside the indoor arena until they are farther along in their training. Sometimes, I will have a header lead the horse while I drive in the cart the first time we drive through. We have also put them to the cart in the outdoor arena or the farm yard/driveway. I have had unfortunate times that I have put to and then realized that I didn't open the outdoor arena gate, and have had to get out of my cart to open it while holding the horse. It is a very uncomfortable feeling for me. If he jerks away for whatever reason, I am SOL. I have visions of pieces of cart and harness everywhere.



ruffian said:


> " The "picture " perceived by many people of a very large person in a cart being pulled by a very tiny horse may be the only representation they have to form an opinion. We should be asking,"What message am I sending?"
> 
> I guess my response to this is, so what? If my horse is comfortable and not under stress or strain, I really don't care what other folks are saying.


I understand what you are saying, but there are some folks that drive minis that really _don't _pay attention or _don't understand_ that their horse is under stress or strain. I know of a VERY prominent person in the carriage industry that doesn't think that minis should be drove at all because she witnessed a mini that was overfaced one day and died the next. Granted, that was ONE incident, but it was enough for that person to make up her mind regarding minis. Needless to say, I didn't show well under her as a judge. She told me flat out to my face that minis are great pasture pets, but shouldn't be drove. Now obviously I do not agree with her, but it only takes one instance and the reputation has been established. Thank goodness that is not what all carriage drivers think!

Myrna


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## disneyhorse (Dec 21, 2010)

ruffian said:


> So if I read this correctly you are saying that I should not lead my horse when it is hooked to the cart? Is that what "Put to" means? If so, I would much rather be leading a cart out of a barn than sitting in the seat. I can respond much quicker and safer if I can walking beside rather than riding.
> 
> " The "picture " perceived by many people of a very large person in a cart being pulled by a very tiny horse may be the only representation they have to form an opinion. We should be asking,"What message am I sending?"
> 
> I guess my response to this is, so what? If my horse is comfortable and not under stress or strain, I really don't care what other folks are saying.


You should hitch your horse in a large, safe area... not hitch in the barn and lead the horse out... nor probably hook in a barn aisle either.

I always take my cart out to the arena (or driveway or wherever is open and safe) and then ground-drive my horse out to the cart from the harnessing/grooming area. The horse is ground-driven up to the front of the cart, and then asked to STAND until all hooked up and I'm in the cart. If it's a green horse, a header is usually a good idea here!

Andrea


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 21, 2010)

I harness and hitch in my barn aisle all the time and then drive out of the barn. When I am done driving I drive the horse into the barn to unhitch. My aisles are wide. The cross ties are there and I start all the horses from the same position. All of my horses are trained to stand and not move a foot while hitching or until the bridle is removed afterwards. By the time they are fully trained you can hitch them anywhere - indoors or out - safely but, when you don't have a header for a green horse, cross ties are quite nice to use!



I have a set of wide cross ties outside as well and quite often use them in the summer but it sure is nice to be out of the cold and weather for harnessing and hitching in the wintertime. Years ago most people had a carriage house to hitch in and quite often a carriage entry which the carriage was driven into for passengers to dismount the carriage out of the weather.


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## Candi (Dec 22, 2010)

RhineStone said:


> Exactly! Right on, Ron!
> 
> 
> 
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Woman after my own heart! Fantastic comments and good "rules to follow"!

 Merry Christmas!


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## Sandee (Dec 22, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> ................................ but, when you don't have a header for a green horse, cross ties are quite nice to use!
> 
> ...................


Absoultely agree! The first time I went to Nationals I saw two and three people helping hitch each other up but when it came my time to get ready no one was around and I had to figure out a way to hitch my guy, who'd only been driving one season, without any help. I ended by facing him into a stall wall ( at the outside end of the aisle) and then backing him and the cart away to leave. After that experience, I decided to train my horses to stand wherever they were. He was the most difficult. My mare that new how to ground tie for obstacle was the easiest to train to stand while hitching.


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## R Whiteman (Dec 24, 2010)

My horses are required to pull about twice their weight every time I get in the cart. I would agree that if the horse is comfortable and not being stressed by the activities, then I too would probably charge forward with vigor and wanton disregard for wagging tongues.

However, I would rather not be the example so gleefully pointed out as what is "wrong" by those that often look down their long noses or speak with authority about the work ethic and abilities in general of the miniature horse and their drivers even if they obviously have no idea what they are talking about. Many of these people based their entire opinion on one incident they observed. Unfortunately, sometimes those same folks often have the abilities to open or close doors to new driving opportunities for the miniature horse. Just something to think about.

As I see it,

Ron


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## Blackwater Farm (Dec 29, 2010)

I want to thank you RhineStone for the driving safety tips in this post and on your website. I usually bring my cart to the middle of our alley way in the barn and I ground drive my horse to the cart, back him in to the shafts, hook him up, then ground drive him out. I dont walk behind the cart but off to the side about where I would be getting in. Then I get in the cart once we are outside. I was another, as someone else mentioned, that was always told not to ride a horse in the barn so I have always just brought him outside first. Is this inappropriate? If I do ever get out of the cart for a reason (I take my gelding to ALOT of events and like to give him a rest) I always stand to the side never at his head. I'm not new to driving I have been doing it most of my life, my grandfather has always had work horses and mules and he keeps saddlebreds to drive but he does alot of things the "old fashioned" way and if I am doing something unsafe I wanna know! Thank you!!!!


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## Carriage (Dec 30, 2010)

R Whiteman said:


> My horses are required to pull about twice their weight every time I get in the cart. I would agree that if the horse is comfortable and not being stressed by the activities, then I too would probably charge forward with vigor and wanton disregard for wagging tongues.
> 
> However, I would rather not be the example so gleefully pointed out as what is "wrong" by those that often look down their long noses or speak with authority about the work ethic and abilities in general of the miniature horse and their drivers even if they obviously have no idea what they are talking about. Many of these people based their entire opinion on one incident they observed. Unfortunately, sometimes those same folks often have the abilities to open or close doors to new driving opportunities for the miniature horse. Just something to think about.
> 
> ...


You and I see alike on this topic Ron. Well said all the way around. As I've said before, I will say again, complete and intimate engagement with with the horse renders the "norm" or convention into the background because this level of engagement is far and away superior to convention. In order to get to this higher level of engagement, one has already worked through convention and left it in the dust, thus creating a new and more personal norm.

As to the aforementioned door keepers, there are two basic and endemic problems with all organizations.

1) If they don't grow they die, just through normal attrition if nothing else, but also, and as it applies to this case, through the imposition of norms in exclusivity and "tradition" in exclusivity. This myopic stance will never allow either growth or improvement in a given pursuit.

2) And the biggest problem is that they are infested with people. This is why any organization must have mature and far seeing leadership devoid of ego in order to survive and achieve greatness.

Thanks Ron, Spot On,

Bb


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 30, 2010)

Boys, we just have to get out there and continue to prove that Miniatures ARE capable by beating the "door keepers" at their own game. Be better than they expect us to be in every facet. Education really makes a difference! Even a full size horse can be overfaced by an uneducated horseman but, until we are seen and accepted as horsemen at all, we tend to take a lot of scrutiny - let's be sure we stand up to it.


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## CCC (Dec 30, 2010)

my gosh I'm really glad I read this post! i was thinking after I got some training on my mini to go in a cart, I was hoping to lead him on the road that goes around our back pasture every day , for exercise for him and I ! guess not now!!

So I'm wanting to build my Ally way in my barn big enough to drive the mini cart in and out of.. our walkways were only going to be 10 feet, is that going to be big enough? my husband will murder me if I change the barn plans yet again 

tia!


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## Carriage (Dec 31, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> Boys, we just have to get out there and continue to prove that Miniatures ARE capable by beating the "door keepers" at their own game. Be better than they expect us to be in every facet. Education really makes a difference! Even a full size horse can be overfaced by an uneducated horseman but, until we are seen and accepted as horsemen at all, we tend to take a lot of scrutiny - let's be sure we stand up to it.


Well said Milo. With events in CDE both approaching and exceeding 40% in the west, it does become imperative that we ARE, both individually and collectively, better. On the whole I do see this being achieved. Again encouragement to greater and greater engagement with the horse and and training in general will disarm the naysayers and leave them mumbling to themselves as there will be fewer and fewer folk to mumble to. Success is already ours IF we pursue greatness through optimum training and we are "All in".

Train early, train always and train IN all ways.

Thank You Milo,

Bb


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## Carriage (Dec 31, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> Boys, we just have to get out there and continue to prove that Miniatures ARE capable by beating the "door keepers" at their own game. Be better than they expect us to be in every facet. Education really makes a difference! Even a full size horse can be overfaced by an uneducated horseman but, until we are seen and accepted as horsemen at all, we tend to take a lot of scrutiny - let's be sure we stand up to it.


Well said Milo. With events in CDE both approaching and exceeding 40% in the west, it does become imperative that we ARE, both individually and collectively, better. On the whole I do see this being achieved. Again encouragement to greater and greater engagement with the horse and and training in general will disarm the naysayers and leave them mumbling to themselves as there will be fewer and fewer folk to mumble to. Success is already ours IF we pursue greatness through optimum training and we are "All in".

Train early, train always and train IN all ways.

Thank You Milo,

Bb


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## RhineStone (Dec 31, 2010)

Blackwater Farm said:


> I usually bring my cart to the middle of our alley way in the barn and I ground drive my horse to the cart, back him in to the shafts, hook him up, then ground drive him out. I dont walk behind the cart but off to the side about where I would be getting in. Then I get in the cart once we are outside. I was another, as someone else mentioned, that was always told not to ride a horse in the barn so I have always just brought him outside first. Is this inappropriate? If I do ever get out of the cart for a reason (I take my gelding to ALOT of events and like to give him a rest) I always stand to the side never at his head.


We don't back our horse to the shafts. There is too great a possibility that the horse will step on and break the shafts. We pull the cart up to the horse, lifting the shafts up over their back before dropping them down before going through the tugs. If you bring the shafts up to the horses body level, you risk poking them in the butt if they happen to move. This is standard putting to procedure in the carriage industry.

 

It really doesn't matter where you put your horse to, but once it is put to the cart you need to be in the cart with reins in hand. Never lead or head your horse once it is put to (i.e. get in the cart as soon as possible after putting to). You can put your horse to the cart in the barn in a wide aisle, in the indoor arena, or outside. 

 

The more green the horse, the larger the space should be.

(I walked away from the computer, thought about this some more, and decided I better clarify the above line. The space you put a green horse to a cart in should be enclosed, but not so tight that the horse has to push the cart around hard to turn it around or can't turn around at all. No 20 acre fields or 8 ft. aisles. We put our horses to the cart in our 60' x 80' indoor arena. It is like a glorified round pen. Then the horse can make a big circle to reverse. They don't feel "trapped". It is also the space we do the majority of our early training in.)

 

I think the reason for the "don't ride your horse in the barn" rule was that many barns tend to be too short to ride in. This isn't a problem with mini carts. We don't put our big horse to the cart in the aisle either. The space isn't big enough.

 

If your cart is well-balanced, you don't need to get out of the cart to give your horse a rest. There really shouldn't be a lot of weight in the tugs. You can adjust most cart's weight by just leaning forward and back. Stay in the cart unless you are putting to or taking your horse out of the cart, or adjusting something. That is pretty much the only acceptable time to be on the ground instead of on the box seat.

 

Good Questions!! 






 

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Dec 31, 2010)

CCC said:


> So I'm wanting to build my Ally way in my barn big enough to drive the mini cart in and out of.. our walkways were only going to be 10 feet, is that going to be big enough? my husband will murder me if I change the barn plans yet again


That is large enough for a mini, but not a big horse. And like I said above, I would put a green horse to in a larger space. 

 

Myrna


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## RhineStone (Dec 31, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> Boys, we just have to get out there and continue to prove that Miniatures ARE capable by beating the "door keepers" at their own game. Be better than they expect us to be in every facet.* Education really makes a difference!* Even a full size horse can be overfaced by an uneducated horseman but, until we are seen and accepted as horsemen at all, we tend to take a lot of scrutiny - let's be sure we stand up to it.





Carriage said:


> Well said Milo. With events in CDE both approaching and exceeding 40% in the west, it does become imperative that we ARE, both individually and collectively, *better*. On the whole I do see this being achieved. Again encouragement to greater and greater engagement with the horse and and training in general will disarm the naysayers and leave them mumbling to themselves as there will be fewer and fewer folk to mumble to. Success is already ours IF we pursue greatness through optimum training and we are "All in".
> 
> Train early, train always and train IN all ways.
> 
> ...


Lori and Bob are spot on! 



 :yeah


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 31, 2010)

MiLo Minis said:


> Boys, we just have to get out there and continue to prove that Miniatures ARE capable by beating the "door keepers" at their own game. *Be better than they expect us to be in every facet.* Education really makes a difference! Even a full size horse can be overfaced by an uneducated horseman but, *until we are seen and accepted as horsemen at all, we tend to take a lot of scrutiny - let's be sure we stand up to it.*






Every day, every way.





Leia


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## tifflunn (Jan 1, 2011)

Great thread- I learned a lot, and need to make some changes- Thank You for all the information





Tiffany


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