# Was this a red bag?



## weerunner (Mar 17, 2011)

My Buffy had her foal today at 515pm. Gotta love those daylight deliveries. Anyways, she went down to deliver and had had 7 good strong contractions and nothing presented. So I went in to check position. All I found was the placenta still intact and could feel that baby was behind it, so I broke the placenta open and gush out came the amniotic fluid and a couple of pushes and the amnion and foals feet showed up like a normal delivery. I delivered the foal quickly just in case the foal was compromised.

So the question is, if I let her push on her own for longer woudl the placenta have torn on it's own and the placenta detached like a normal one. Also the placenta seemed to have an area of brownish tissue, was this the area that detached causing the red bag.

I asked this of the foaling attendant, Theresa of The Foaling Manual, and she said if you have pushing and no sack you have a red bag and you need to find it and open. So that is what I have always done and never had an issue, but maybe I'm over thinking it. What do you all think


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## bluerogue (Mar 17, 2011)

It certainly sounds like it was. The foal looks healthy. I've been watching Buffy for days, and the 20 minutes I didn't check today while reading email, she foals! What did she have? The baby is very pretty, and looks like he/she has gotten a good start!


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## weerunner (Mar 17, 2011)

He is a little black colt, and boy does he have some stored up energy he needs to burn off. Poor mom just wants to have a nap. Here are some pics of him


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## Field-of-Dreams (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like it to me, too. I always check once my mare starts really pushing and if I check inside and see placenta, I break it, too.


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## sedeh (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like a good save to me!! Congratulations on a healthy colt!!



:yeah


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## TPs flat rock acres (Mar 17, 2011)

I have been watching her since I signed up and was so excited to see her finally have him. It didn't look like there was any problem you did a good job. Was waiting to see what you were going to put out for the towel, colt or filly. My mother has been watching too and missed it. congrats!!


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## Miniv (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like you had a red bag and reacted perfectly!





Congratulations on your adorable colt!


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## HGFarm (Mar 17, 2011)

Sounds like it to me too perhaps, though I have never experienced one myself! At any rate, good save and congrats on your new little guy!


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## Minimor (Mar 18, 2011)

I would say that it wasn't. I've had them present pretty much as you described this to be. The first few contractions don't seem to make things progress & when you check there's the placenta, still looking intact. Then a couple more pushes, the placenta splits open the sack appears & then things really get under way. This is fairly typical in my experience & I don't consider these deliveries to be red bag. Foals are completely normal at birth, no signs at all of oxygen deprivation.


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## Knottymare (Mar 18, 2011)

What an adorable little guy. Congrats!


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## [email protected] (Mar 18, 2011)

I'm with Minimor on this. It may have been a redbag, but the first few pushes I wait to see some progress.

If the placenta is coming out (bulging red), then yes help out that's a red bag. There's a distinct 'star' where it normally breaks at. You won't see this if the foaling is normal, only an aborted foal.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Mar 18, 2011)

Whether or not it was going to become a red bag will never be known, glad the foal is doing well.

But a true red bag doesn't take place until the red tissue (chorioallantois) is pushed out and visible beyond the vulva. It is the contractions of the mare that breaks the star. 7 contractions is really not very many. Most texts recommend waiting 10 minutes at the stage you were at before intervening.

The tissue around the vulva and the ligaments holding the pelvis together need to be stretched by the progression of labor to allow the foal to be delivered causing the least amount of damage to mare and foal. I think owners trying to 'help' the mare by pulling would be better off usually to just wait and allow the process to take place in its own time frame.

I've spent quite a bit of time the last 2 days trying to find the frequency of red bag deliveries and have been unable to find any data, but most texts list the condition as rare. Larger breeds are said to be <1% while minis are listed as being 'more frequent'.

I'm sure I'm going to have replies about how without rapid intervention many catastrophes would occur, but I really don't think that's the case.

Dr Taylor


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## Mona (Mar 18, 2011)

This is what a redbag delivery would look like. See the star? That is where it is normally SUPPOSED to break and when it doesn't, it is because the placenta has detached itself from the uterus and comes out with the foal, instead of the foal having to push it's way through that spot. When these particular photos were take, it was was actually a late term abortion...probably about 8 weeks early, and was due to a severely twisted cord that cut the oxygen off from the foal, causing it to die and resulted in the mare expelling it.


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## AnnaC (Mar 18, 2011)

Brilliant pictures of a red bag showing the 'star'.

Last year we had a maiden mare who presented a just visible red 'something', I waited a few seconds and at the next push I could see what I thought must be the 'star' (thanks to LB members posts!). Waited again and with the next push the star split and baby was right behind, happily progressing in his bag - a little gentle help and out he popped!

Next day we actually had a red bag - mare had had several normal presentations - the difference being, no sign of a star, just the start of a smooth shiney surface. Immediately split the red bag and a super little filly luckily came through to say Hi World!

Peviously we have lost a foal to a red bag deliver - never seen it or heard of it and thought the mare must be prolapsing so waited for the vet! Thanks to LB we have been aware of this possibility for the past 5 or 6 years or so.





Anna


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## LindaL (Mar 18, 2011)

I also do not think it was a red bag. As shown above, the pics show a true red bag delivery.

When you said you broke open the bag while the foal's head was still inside, that really scared me, because if the foal had not been presented correctly and it was still inside trying to breath on its own, it would have suffocated.

Glad everything worked out well, tho and you have a nice healthy foal!


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## Connie P (Mar 18, 2011)

Congratulations on your new little colt!


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## Nathan Luszcz (Mar 18, 2011)

Sounds like a red bag to me



If you SEE red, its a redbag. You should never see red first, just the amnion.

It also looks like you had a little descending placentitis.... that brown look to the placenta is not normal and can be a sign of infection. How thick was the placenta? Was it tough and thicker than usual?


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## kaykay (Mar 18, 2011)

> The tissue around the vulva and the ligaments holding the pelvis together need to be stretched by the progression of labor to allow the foal to be delivered causing the least amount of damage to mare and foal. I think owners trying to 'help' the mare by pulling would be better off usually to just wait and allow the process to take place in its own time frame.


totally agree with this! I just think sometimes we are too quick to step in.

Kay


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## weerunner (Mar 18, 2011)

I didn't notice that the placenta was particularly thick Nathan, but I know the amnion was very thick. I had to use both hands and my nails to tear it open. I know when I have a regular delivery with the amnion membrane showing then the placenta cleans out pink and shiny, not inside out like I shwo in the pics. Just trying to educate myself about what is occuring when the placenta turns inside out like this. I think I will still do the same, contractions and no white sack = go in and open the placenta in my barn. Has always worked for me. Thanks to everyone for their input.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Mar 18, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Sounds like a red bag to me
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Without a lot of experience its difficult to know what tough and thick may look or feel like. But weight is objective and easily attained. I do not know of normals for minis, but numbers are available for bigger horses and correlates well with foal survivability.

Dr Taylor


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## Sue_C. (Mar 18, 2011)

> but I know the amnion was very thick


This is a pretty common thing with minis, so I've read here...but the only time I have seen it not broken by the natural foaling process was the one detached placenta we had, and that foal was dead prior to birth.


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