# Dog people



## Minimor (Jan 4, 2009)

What's your opinion of Cesar Millan and his dog training techniques?

A friend was raving about him recently. We don't get the channel that airs his show so I had never seen or heard of him before and am just curious if he's really as wonderful as this friend says?


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## Sixstardanes (Jan 4, 2009)

Personally, I think he's got some good and bad to his training techniques.


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## mininik (Jan 4, 2009)

http://www.urbandawgs.com/divided_profession.html


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## Vertical Limit (Jan 4, 2009)

Geez, my post went poof! Must be the Ouija Board thread filtering it's way over here






Basically some good and some not so good.


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## mininik (Jan 4, 2009)

What do you think of Cesar Millan?


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## Maxi'sMinis (Jan 4, 2009)

Quija what are the pros and cons of Milan?


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## Vertical Limit (Jan 4, 2009)




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## anoki (Jan 4, 2009)

Ok, I'll bite....and put on my flame suit

Basically he's set the dog training world BACK about 30 years. Though yes, SOME of his techniques MAY appear good and at the base of them they are good training techniques, you don't ACTUALLY get to see HOW he goes about getting the dogs that way...jmo....kinda like some horse trainers. Looks good from the outside, but when you really see how it's done...that's a different story. I also have some real issues with people watching his show and trying 'techniques' out on their dogs, when those 'techniques' are NOT what's needed in their situations...but again it's like horse training....

~kathryn


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## mininik (Jan 4, 2009)

Exactly, Anoki. That's why I linked to the article by Jean Donaldson (http://www.perfectpaws.com for those who want more information on just who she is). Dr. Ian Dunbar (http://www.dogstardaily.com) is yet another highly qualified individual (a veterinary behaviorist) who doesn't agree with Millan's methods, and there are many others.


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## Charlene (Jan 4, 2009)

kathryn, i'll be the LAST one to flame you for that opinion! that man is downright dangerous, if you ask me. i would hate to see the carnage left behind when he leaves one of those "red zone" cases with an owner who is clueless. he's probably done way more harm than good!


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## Minimor (Jan 4, 2009)

Thank you for those links mininik--when I did a search on his name I didn't come up with those sites. It's not that I'm looking for a dog trainer, just that this gal was raving about how good Cesar is and just from the things she said about him I had the feeling that a good many people wouldn't care for him. Okay, I had the feeling that I wouldn't care for him!



But, I'm not about to subscribe to cable TV nor buy his book in order to see for myself and so was just curious about what others think of him.

This friend doesn't have internet; I think I'll print out a few of those website & give them to her. She can read about what she doesn't see/hear on Cesar's TV show.

Thank you too to those who sent PM's. As I said, I am not looking for a dog trainer, nor even dog training advice, but if I were I'm quite certain Cesar isn't the trainer I would turn to. I don't have pitbulls. I have a Shepherd that doesn't need further training, and I'm currently working with my collie...my WIMPY little collie...and I know for a fact that Cesar's methods would not work on her!


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## Marty (Jan 4, 2009)

I love the man and 99% of his ideas and methods.

He has helped so many people use their brains and THINK. Things most of us take for granted such as us seasoned horse people, a newbie just sometimes needs to learn leadership and common animal sense when it doesn't come naturally. Caesar explains how the nature of the dog thinks in his mind so he makes it easier to explain to the people that way, such as how horse people will say "we have to become alpha and the dominant one of our herd", so it is with dogs. I often say that some horses that are trouble some and ill mannered have to much time on their hands and need a job. Caesar uses that same method basically in encouraging people to walk and exercise their dogs and not leave them to their own devices. I give a huge thumbs up to the man for sure.


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## mininik (Jan 4, 2009)

"we have to become alpha and the dominant one of our herd", so it is with dogs"

Sorry, Marty (and anyone else who believes it), but that theory is such outdated jibberish. (And it's not just me saying so, either!)

Whales and dolphins live in very complex social groups just as dogs and horses can, but you won't see their trainers neck grabbing, alpha rolling, or shanking them into compliance. Just because we can get away with it (USUALLY) with dogs and horses does not mean it's right. Violence begins where knowledge ends; there is a better way!

I recommend you all read The Culture Clash by Jean Donaldson and Don't Shoot the Dog! by Karen Pryor. If nothing else, PLEASE read the American Veterinary Society of ANIMAL Behavior's positions on

Dominance:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima...20statement.pdf

and

Punishment:

http://www.avsabonline.org/avsabonline/ima..._Statements.pdf

*"People who rely on dominance theory to*

train their pets may need to regularly threaten

them with aggressive displays or repeatedly

use physical force. Conversely, pets subjected

to threats or force may not offer submissive

behaviors. Instead, they may react with aggression,

not because they are trying to be dominant

but because the human threatening them makes

them afraid.

Third, in the wild, even in dominancesubmissive

relationships that are well-established,

the relationship lasts only as long as the

higher-ranking individual is strong enough to

retain this rank. Thus, high rank may be shortlived

in both human-animal and animal-animal

relationships.

Overall, the use of dominance theory to

understand human-animal interactions leads to

an antagonistic relationship between owners and

their pets."


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## Marty (Jan 4, 2009)

oh darn nik, maybe i should have said THE PACK LEADER LOL


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## mininik (Jan 5, 2009)

Same difference...


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## My-Lil-Pony (Jan 5, 2009)

I respect anyone who dedicates so much time to rehabbing dogs many feel should be put down. He allows pits to live a normal and social life after being in bad situations. I think that is wonderful.


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## Carriage (Jan 5, 2009)

While Ceaser may have "good" points in parts of his regimen, the base upon which he lays his "training" is steeped in cruelty and ignorance of canine psychology. I say this as a court appointed expert in canine behavior.

He approached us a number of years ago specific to acquiring one of our dog carts. Course I was all excited about having another "big name" on board until I talked to a very wise dog friend of mine who quickly gave me the low down on his practice. She quickly set me straight on the "dog whisperer". I have always thought it curious that a man with such a moniker would train in such a heavy handed way. The words "whisper" and brute force are diametrically opposed. In my opinion the man is a bully with a little marketing savvy. (Well more marketing savvy than I anyway...<G>)

I also found it curious that, when we were contacted, that he would not speak directly to me even though he was sitting beside his intermediary. My instincts don't trust him as for business deals and I would NEVER let him near one of my dogs. We decided that guilt by association was not for us.

Your star crossed friend is not looking deep enough. In pro dog circles Ceaser is a well known (and dismissed) factor. The only reason he is still getting any play is because of the P.T. Barnum effect IMO.

Just my opinion,

Bb

Canine Carriages

www.caninecarriages.com

Graham Carriage Works

www.grahamcarriageworks.com


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## Whitestar (Jan 5, 2009)

I think that some people have a "presence" of authority that dogs can recognize. Thats why some people can work with even the worst behaved dogs & turn them around. But I also think that once this presence is removed from the dogs life, that the dog can very well revert to the problem & sometimes dangerous behavior. I think that perhaps Cesar can work with some of the behavior problem dogs when others can't, & yes perhaps his methods off camera may be not what everyone sees. I guess the big question is, what happens when he leaves? for instance the show with the white shepherd that was attacking the children in the household & was so dangerous that even Cesar had to first approach him with a trash can lid for safety. yes the dog was better behaved after his training, but frankly, I would never trust a dog that exhibited that type of behavior to be around my children again. It only takes one bite.... That same family could have adopted a sweet natured dog from their local shelter & gone on to have a loving pet that they didnt have to worry about.

I like Victoria Stillwells training methods. Like horses, I think that dogs have a language & once we learn the language, their body behavior & recognize that active dogs are usually happier dogs then we have less behavior problems. So many problems come from getting a cute puppy, no initial training or socialization & then after awhile it becomes an afterthought in the backyard. Chewing, jumping, barking, nipping for attention & boredom.

I have seen Cesar in person & also at Humane Society gatherings ( I ran a non profit vet clinic & shelter & attended seminars). Again, he does alot that others can't with the same dog. I just have a question as to what happens when he is no longer around these dogs. And remember, TV is edited, watching him day to day in real time would be a different story. It is not as quick and easy as a 30 minute edited TV program shows.


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## nysart8902 (Jan 5, 2009)

I watched his show a few times, and I'm not a fan. I don't agree with most of his training methods. That and he seems to contradict himself a lot. One minute he says that pit bulls (an example since my lab is part pit) are get when trained, and then next he's saying they're agressive. Well I did my research to see mainly what health issues we might face with Duke, and pits are one of the greatest dogs to have around kids (when trained properly). He acts like all the "non-agressive" breeds are great, but in fact any dog can turn on someone. So I stopped watching him, and I stopped watching It's Me or the Dog (not a fan of her either).


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## My-Lil-Pony (Jan 5, 2009)

Whitestar said:


> I like Victoria Stillwells training methods. .



I have to say I find her a joke. She does seem to do better changing the behavior of the humans more then the animals and maybe that in turn solves some of the training issues they have?


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## Carriage (Jan 5, 2009)

Whitestar said:


> But I also think that once this presence is removed from the dogs life, that the dog can very well revert to the problem & sometimes dangerous behavior. not what everyone sees. I guess the big question is, what happens when he leaves?
> 
> We tend to consider dog trainers training dogs only. Any trainer worth their salt will tell you that 90% of their effort goes into training the human. Dogs learn and respond with the proper motivation tailored to that individual dog very quickly. Its us humans wearing the dunce cap.... You might be the best dog trainer in the world but if you can't apply the same efforts and techniques to the human then you're not a trainer and should only receive 10% pay for your incomplete efforts IMO. Teach a person to fish................
> 
> ...


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## mininik (Jan 5, 2009)

Marty and other Cesar fans, please read this article:

http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm


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## Leeana (Jan 5, 2009)

mininik said:


> Marty and other Cesar fans, please read this article:
> http://www.4pawsu.com/cesarfans.htm


Its a difference of opinions...if marty does not agree with you, or i do not agree with you / others opinions then please accept that instead of continueing to challenge and prove us wrong. I have watched his show from the beginning, i see a very passionate trainer who gets the job done, totally fine in my book. I do not in any way see what he does as dangerous, harmfull or abusive, then agian we all have different views on what all three of those things are.


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## mininik (Jan 5, 2009)

How can you take my linking to the concerned opinions of highly educated experts in the field of animal behavior as a challenge?






"I do not in any way see what he does as dangerous, harmfull or abusive, then agian we all have different views on what all three of those things are." Leeana

This is certainly true, but I mostly concern myself with how DOGS (and other animals) view what people do to them. The body language of the dogs in the shows clearly indicates that they think much of what Cesar does to them is dangerous, harmful and abusive. At the very least it is obviously forceful, stressful and suppressing. Considering that there are kinder methods (that are not new and are proven to be effective even with the most behaviorally challenged dogs) as well as new knowledge of dominant/alpha/pack behavior, punitive methods such as these can only be viewed as unnecessary and outdated, and really shouldn't even be viewed as good entertainment any more than watching a dog fighting ring today should be viewed as entertainment:


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## Carriage (Jan 5, 2009)

Those were good pics showing what we refer to Mininic. Thanks for referring that article. The pics taken alone could be argued away but not in light of known evidence. They clearly show the effect of overly coercive training methods, a mere glance is all it takes for confirmation.

My response was to Minimor as opinions were solicited regarding Mr. Milan. Opinion was given on both sides. As such I'm perplexed as to why you would be upset at at an opinion differing to yours. It was not about you, please don't make it so.

Bb


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## Sonya (Jan 5, 2009)

I've only watched the show a couple times, of what I have seen (which isn't alot) didn't constitute abusive methods IMO, but who knows what goes on behind the camera. I myself can't tell from those pics above what's going on, as well I would have to see more.

There are so many training methods out there, and of course everyone thinks theirs is the only and best way.

A couple years back I went to see a very, very famous "horse whisperer" in action...I will not give his name as it will only start an argument. But I can tell you this, there was no whispering going on. I didn't necessarily find his methods abusive, but some could of been considered harsh, and I can gaurantee there was no whispering. I did find his method better than the old time method of wearing a horse down, but in actuality that's all it really was but not done to the extreme and was candy-coated.

I also think different animals react differently to different training methods, what works for one doesn't work for all.

last and most importantly...I think I have two of the worst behaved dogs around sometime, but my pet sitter, who is a vet tech, breeder and trainer of labs thinks they are just angels....I guess they are only bad for me! LOL...or she is just saying that because I pay her well!


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## Lilac Lane Farm (Jan 5, 2009)

Thank you Lenna

I am so sick and tired of the people on this forum slamming everything about dogs. In their narrow minds ONLY, what they think is right! I am sick to death of this all

Every topic on dogs is dominated by so called knowledgeable dog people. :arg! :arg! Well for your information Cesar has helps a lot of people, and take it from another expert who has 30 plus years in the dog world.

I have showed, bred and also am a professional dog groomer of 20 years ( and that is an educated dog groomer with modern equipment ) your opinion is not always true. There are many methods of dog training in this world and to each their own. I have used many in my NUMEROUS years of dog training.

You RUDE people slam any dog breeder or person who doesn’t breed pure bred dogs or own one. I never get on this forum and slam your Australian Shepherds and Corgies, Goldens and Labs! I would never do that to any one!

Well the secret is out I HATE THEM!!!!!!!!



Useless dogs to me but I never have voiced any opinion about them and guess what I am a diehard PIT BULL person a true steward for the breed. So go ahead and slam me go right ahead you all are such jerks.

Also I breed designer dogs (oh my god!!!! am I sooooo bad?????) I breed wonderful pets that work well with families. Not everyone wants a HORRIABLE RESCUE SHELTER DOG, why adopt someone else’s problem. Big hairy dogs don’t always work well for everyone. You know sometimes there are people who WANT a very nice small dog, a Poodle mix. I also CERF test our dogs, micro chip them and sell with a 1 year guarantee .

I am so surprised that this allowed on the forum, any time someone slams a person with a real crappy ugly horse their hand is slapped and this is what is wrong about the back porch nothing is done and it goes on all the time.

I think you (you know who you are) should not be so harsh to everyone. You will never cram your training method down everyone’s throat.



Think before you post, there are a lot of good people here and their feelings get hurt.





If you can not tell this has been bothering me for a LONG TIME. I will probably be kicked off the forum for this post, oh well it will save me from all of you moronic dog experts





Heidi


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## Celtic Hill Farm (Jan 5, 2009)

I have seen his show, ehhh...did nothing for me. My Cousin raves about him, and i'm just like "ehhh..." My (horse) trainer, also works with a dog trainer, and the way she trains is so much easier and simpler...may i say safer? I had once asked her about this person, and she said that there are a number of court cases where the owners are suing him because they tried his "techniques" and didn't work and ended up getting bitten.

I have never used any techniques of this guy's and i couldn't ask for a more prefect dog!


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## anoki (Jan 5, 2009)

I am posting this carefully...just to defend ME

First, I never said I am a 'knowledgeable' dog person...I have A LOT to learn, and I'm the first one to admit it (to me, if you think you know it all, you stop learning...and that is the biggest problem...there is always something new to learn, doesn't matter what you are talking about). I also couldn't give a rat's hiny what breed of dog someone owns. Not every breed of dog suits every person (that to me is a responsible dog breeder & OWNER...just knowing that). I don't think I've said ONE rude thing, other than telling the OP what I have researched on my own about Cesar Milan, as well as what I have been told by Professional dog trainers who train with Positive reinforcement (something that Cesar does NOT do) and these trainers have been training that way for longer than Cesar.

Believe me, my mind is FAR from narrow.

I agree, there are MANY ways of training dogs (as there are horses), but I have issues with people using force and aggression when training (dogs OR horses). Doesn't matter if you are 'fixing' a problem animal, or starting out with a new one. I have a dog living here now who was trained using force....if I get excited about something and raise my voice (say my favourite hockey team just scored the winning goal) he's ducking for cover....is that a well trained dog? no, he's been beaten into submission...

I don't know if your post was aimed at me precisely or not, but I ask you this....

If you had one of your horses with someone who trained using methods like Cesar Milan, would you leave your horse in that situation?

If you are a "diehard PIT BULL person a true stewart for the breed" you will already know that aggression breeds aggression. Aggressive training techniques create aggressive dogs. There are ways of doing what Cesar shows on his TV show without using force and aggression....but it doesn't sell good tv because it takes more time.

I happen to love Pit Bulls and am sick to death of breed specific legislation....but whether you like Pit Bulls or not has nothing to do with the OP.

I try really hard to NOT cram my opinion down people's throats, because, well, I hate people doing it to me....but I do offer my opinion, because maybe, just maybe it will get people thinking about the WHOLE picture, not just one side or the other.



> I am so surprised that this allowed on the forum, any time someone slams a person with a real crappy ugly horse their hand is slapped and this is what is wrong about the back porch nothing is done and it goes on all the time.


well there is this little disclaimer on the main forum page:

The Back Porch

A "gathering place" for all of us to discuss almost anything "NHR". PLEASE NOTE: Some topics may be very controversial... If you can't take the heat, don't read them!!! This board is semi-monitored - ML

~kathryn


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## lilmiraclesfarm (Jan 5, 2009)

I'm not going to really get to involved in this. Just going to add my small 2 cents. I rather like him in ways. There are things I agree with and things I don't agree with. I'm a huge believer in being the "leader" To me its a sign of respect. If your dog basically walks all over you, it has no respect. My dogs behave themselves with me. But with my boyfriend they walk all over him. He is not at all dominant in this household.


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## Lilac Lane Farm (Jan 5, 2009)

Anoki,

I did not aim my post to you, I am sorry if you took offence to it. I just have been bothered here about all the dog post. I really do not care what kind of dog you breed and I am sure you feel the same way about me. I do enjoy all the titles everyone wins with their AKC dogs, I love to see the pictures of them. I really do!!!!

I never slam anyone here and I do not post hardly at all, but it seems like there has been a lot of negative dog activity . I feel we need to be supportive of the dog industry ,breeding, training, showing ,ect.



It is very good to have people with knowledge here, but the slamming just needs to stop.

I have had Pit Bulls for 20 years and I do not beat them, I do use positive training with them. Anyone who was at Nationals would of seen my Pit bull Butch. He went everywhere with us and Sharon Burlington the gate loved him. I am not saying that Cesar is great in everything he does, but he does help people.

I have many dogs here at the kennel that I could not train with his method and one is a German Shepherd that was a rescue (Police dog). I have to be careful with him and “getting after him” the dominating part of it, he will have nothing to do with that.

I am just sick and tired of all the slamming here, please try to be nice



. This is what I tell my daughter everyday.

Heidi


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## Sonya (Jan 5, 2009)

to lighten the mood:



> He is not at all dominant in this household.


Way to go girl, that's the way it's suppose to be, he sounds like the marrying kind!


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 5, 2009)

Read his first book, liked it. Haven't read his 2nd book, and haven't seen his TV show. Obviously a bit of a controversial subject. Anyone want to discuss prong collars now?


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## Lilac Lane Farm (Jan 5, 2009)

LOL


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## disneyhorse (Jan 5, 2009)

Not really being a "dog person" although raised around dogs in the house, I didn't have a strong feeling one way or another towards Cesar Milan.

Personally, I think on forums like this you will find people in either the "Strongly For" or "Strongly Against" category. Mostly because people who are opinionated enough to feel that way, will be aggressive enough to promote/verbalize one thing or against.

I sort of feel that Cesar is more "middle of the road" with his training. He does understand the natural communication and instincts of dogs, and gets the results he wants. And yes, he does use more aggressive tactics.

I personally feel that animals are all very different personalities, and the WISE animal trainer will take tips from ALL trainers, even ones that use tactics and methods they don't agree with initially. I'm sorry, but "positive-only-reinforcement" is NOT for EVERY animal. Some animals are just plain crazy, and some animals are jerks. Some animals DO need a firm hand to put them in their place for maximum benefit. An animal is NOT a child, so they DO need to be respectful, safe, and obedient at all times. And an animal that understands its role and isn't spoiled will endure less negative interactions because it will not provoke them.

Yes, there are some sensitive animals that have NO need for an aggressive training regimen. And I believe there are some individuals who would benefit from a more firm approach. Dogs, horses, and heck, even people! I know some people who no matter how nice and supportive you are, will just take advantage and enjoy not having any consequences.

I don't find Cesar Milan to be SO terribly abusive that he has nothing to offer. Obviously he has a lot to offer, or he wouldn't be as popular as he is?

From the few episodes I have seen (and you can see some short versions on YouTube I think) I have really enjoyed them. My mom has also enjoyed them and has had some success with the dogs, she is more motivated to get them to really pay attention and she is starting to really understand the dog's mind. Cesar is very charismatic, and he does help motivate people to really understand that dogs need jobs to prevent boredom behaviors, etc. so that can't be all bad.

I suggest you just check it out and see what you think. I always watch "popular" trainers and either decide if it's helpful or useless. I think a lot of the Natural Horsemanship stuff is just DREADFUL and I have seen people do DREADFUL things but the people who ARE into it, are very much into it and think anything else is abusive and old-school!

Just take everything with a grain of salt and see what works for you and your animal. Each relationship is different, and the same methods will work differently accordingly.

Andrea


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## Sonya (Jan 5, 2009)

Very well said Andrea.


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## Lilac Lane Farm (Jan 5, 2009)

Thank you Andrea


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## Mark & Sharon Bullington (Jan 6, 2009)

Heidi -

Sharon said to tell you she remembers Butch very well - she said he is just an awesome dog. Please give him a "skratch" for her (and one for me, too) and she hopes to see you both later this year at Nationals.

Mark & Sharon Bullington


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## ErikaS. (Jan 6, 2009)

I just have to say Cesar's show is entertaining; it makes me appreciate my own dogs more- in fact it makes my dogs look like saints....oh yeah, one of my dogs is a Saint. haha<-me laughing at my own joke


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## tagalong (Jan 6, 2009)

> Just take everything with a grain of salt and see what works for you and your animal. Each relationship is different, and the same methods will work differently accordingly.


Exactly right.





I guess I fail to understand a lot of the finger-pointing and heat in this thread. Don't like Cesar Milan? Fine - don't watch him, don't read his books, suit yourself. Could many of us deal as effectively with some of the dogs on that show that he has helped? No. I have seen Dog Whisperer episodes... don't have any of the books.

Do I take as gospel everything he says - or even what another dog training business says (such as the link that *mininik* provided)? No.

I like some things he does and not others - and yes he has helped people... I like a lot/most of what Victoria Stilwell does with helping change how the owners interact with their dogs...

It is the same thing with any trainer - be it equine or canine. You take what you like from one approach, use a little of something else from another program, other bits from here and there... and thus find the blend that works for you. And I doubt that any of you could say that there is not some kernel to be gleaned from many Dog Whisperer shows. Or any other trainer.

Now if you want to discuss "trainers", I could tell you behind the scenes crap about Monty Roberts and his @#$% Join Up demos.... things were not what they seemed... and what was not an outright charade was often simply lousy horsemanship. But I digress...


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## Minimor (Jan 6, 2009)

Thank you all--I have to say I've found this to be a lively discussion and enjoyed hearing the different opinions...except for that one hateful post.

And I have to say that was the most hateful post I've seen on this forum in quite sometime!

So, now I know that not everyone shares my friend's view of Cesar--some people like him, some people don't...that's what I was curious about, if everyone thought he's as wonderful as she said.

THank you all!


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## Carriage (Jan 6, 2009)

Anyone want to discuss prong collars now?

What are you crazy?!!!! My flame suit ain't that thick. <G> And besides I was just told that my credentials didn't mean spit and therefore my "unenlightened" opinions are not welcome. Wished I'd known that years ago. I knew I should have gone into international banking, I woulda been bailed out by now.....


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## Sterling (Jan 6, 2009)

I thought I'd like to put my two cents for whatever it's worth on this thread too. I watch Cesar Millan's show and I have two of his books. As far as his methods go I take what I want and leave what I want.

I agree with this statement that tagalong said: "It is the same thing with any trainer - be it equine or canine. You take what you like from one approach, use a little of something else from another program, other bits from here and there... and thus find the blend that works for you."

Not every animal is alike and every approach works the same for every one of them. Just like people. Oh and I also watch Gloria Stillwell..... I'm not a fanatic about them....but they have some interesting pointers the two of them.


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## tagalong (Jan 6, 2009)

> and I'm currently working with my collie...my WIMPY little collie...and I know for a fact that Cesar's methods would not work on her!


I was just rereading this thread - and noticed that ^^^ comment...






*Not true*... mainly because what has been presented on that other dog training site and here by some - is not the whole picture. He has worked very well with wimpy dogs as well, but you would not know it from some of the venom you read...

Last night the satellite was out so I scanned through stuff I had recorded from months ago - and there were a couple of Dog Whisperers on the lst.

The one I watched (with renewed interest after this thread) was interesting - nothing brutal or harsh as so many insist is Cesar's Way. I might not have done things the same way - but it is all information that you can take or leave, use or not as you wish.

One white, fluffy dog was a stray a young girl had adopted - the poor dog was afraid of men. Afraid of loud noises. Afraid of her shadow, at times. And Cesar showed the owner ways to help the dog calm down... relax... understand that she was not in danger. Not just desensitize her - but show her that she (both owner and dog) could deal with it.

But I realize that does not jibe with the constant droning about his harsh methods. You need to see a sampling of things - different dogs, different cases - for yourself and not always rely on what you are told. Same as with any trainer. Horses, dogs, platypuses. _Playtpi?_

Again - I am not blowing Cesar's horn or holding him up at the Be All And End All - far from it. But equally - there is a lot of misrepresentation being presented as fact. One second in time screen captures being presented as evidence of "abuse".

And the calm, indirect way he dealt with that nervous, frightened dog - and helped her - said a lot to me.

But yeah - training is like a buffet... take a bit of that, some of that - and you heap your plate up with what you need. Some things you may not like - and yet you may go back for seconds with something else. There is no One Way.


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## mininik (Jan 6, 2009)

Tagalong ~ It'd be interesting to hear what you think after reading something like Brenda Aloff's "Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide," or Turid Rugaas' "Calming Signals," or Barbara Handelman's "Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook" and then watching those not so harsh seeming episodes of The Dog Whisperer with the sound off. It's not that I think Cesar has absolutely no good points whatsoever (I agree that dogs need a job, socialization, plenty of mental and physical exercise, a healthy diet, vet care, and their owners not freaking out around them), but more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs, and using an outdated theory that came about from observations of wolves in captivity as support for his method.


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## My-Lil-Pony (Jan 6, 2009)

Sometimes there is something to be said for those so called out dated or old fashioned methods in any training program or heck even raising children.


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## tagalong (Jan 6, 2009)

> Tagalong ~ It'd be interesting to hear what you think after reading something like Brenda Aloff's "Canine Body Language: A Photographic Guide," or Turid Rugaas' "Calming Signals," or Barbara Handelman's "Canine Behavior: A Photo Illustrated Handbook" and then watching those not so harsh seeming episodes of The Dog Whisperer with the sound off.


Maybe if you saw the episodes I saw... with the sound on if you like



... you would note that he _was_ using the dog's body language - reading it and working with it... and using the handler's body language to help that fearful dog as well. You know, _calming signals. _ Non-confrontational. Working with that individual dog's needs. There is absolutely nothing "outdated" about that.

And those cases were not harsh... I am more than capable of knowing what "seems" harsh and what isn't... unlike what you seem to be suggesting.







> more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs


Hmmm... but that is what a good trainer is all about. You work with an animal based on your experience and observations to find what works best for that individual animal. No One Way, as I said.


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## mininik (Jan 7, 2009)

Complete quotes are cool...

So, did Cesar use flooding with the dogs? Yey if it worked and didn't backfire. I've seen plenty of Cesar's shows and have two of his books. I haven't noticed him using or suggesting the use of any calming signals, such as turning away from the dogs, licking your lips, yawning, blinking, etc. On the other hand I have seen plenty of the dogs giving calming signals (either directly inwardly and/or as an indication of stress).

Ah, here... this about sums it up for me:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IIpxI5QGmcg


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## tagalong (Jan 7, 2009)

> I haven't noticed him using or suggesting the use of any calming signals, *such as turning away from the dogs, *


Bolding mine. *mininik* - I do not always use complete quotes as there is often only a part of it that I am referring to that is relevant. Why post an entire paragraph when you are only referring to to one small section? I guess nothing I can do or say is right, huh.





Anyway - YES - I saw him do exactly that ^^ - turning away from the dog, not meeting her eyes, not focussing on her, letting her come to him, inviting her in etc. Just because you yourself may not have seen him use those methods does not mean that he (or anyone else) has not done so. And in some cases, maybe some level of flooding will help a dog -_ it would all depend on the individual situation. _

That snarky The Soup vid cracked me up... _Norwegian Warhound??!!_... *Bwahahahah!! *





Anyway, different techniques for different dogs. Different people (and dogs) handle things different ways. And as I have said a gazillion times already - and you seem to want to dispute or argue - you can use a bit of Everyone's methods to suit your individual needs. I also said that I did not care for all his methods/solutions - but you seem to have ignored that. And you have said you liked some of what he does... so I guess I am not understanding why you are so adamant about something you did _not _see... or maybe only _want_ to see one way.

And for the last time - _there is no One Way_.


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## mininik (Jan 7, 2009)

Some of what Cesar says to do is what any decent trainer will say to do. The opposite of what I said I agree with would be not exercising your dog, not feeding a quality diet, not giving proper veterinary care... you get the point. I'm thrilled to know that Cesar isn't always neck grabbing, collar popping, alpha rolling and tchhhushing dogs to rehabilitate them, but I digress. There's definitely more than One Way and I never said there wasn't. I'm going to go strap myself to a tree now to make sure I don't get sucked into space. Gravity doesn't work for me!


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## Mona (Jan 7, 2009)

mininik said:


> Some of what Cesar says to do is what any decent trainer will say to do. *The opposite of what I said I agree with would be not exercising your dog, not feeding a quality diet, not giving proper veterinary care... you get the point.* I'm thrilled to know that Cesar isn't always neck grabbing, collar popping, alpha rolling and tchhhushing dogs to rehabilitate them, but I digress. There's definitely more than One Way and I never said there wasn't. I'm going to go strap myself to a tree now to make sure I don't get sucked into space. Gravity doesn't work for me!


I was going to stay out of this, but now have decided to say that although it's been a long while since I watched Cesar, I used to watch it every day. I only stopped watching because I got tired of all the reruns. I LOVE his show, and I do feel that what he does for those dogs and their owners (for the most part) is wonderful! I think he has a natural ability with the dogs.

I did quote your entire paragraph here, but the part I really want to respond to I have bolded. From watching several episodes, I have seen him exercising the dogs, bringing them to the vet, and also feeding them a veterinary approved brand of dog food. The food may be one that you are not happy with since I think I remember that you prefer to feed RAW/BARF type foods, but since it is veterinary approved, it cannot be all that bad if it contains all the required nutrients etc. I just don't think it is fair to paint him so poorly because you have differing opinions.


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## mininik (Jan 7, 2009)

mininik said:


> I*t's not that I think Cesar has absolutely no good points whatsoever (I agree that dogs need a job, socialization, plenty of mental and physical exercise, a healthy diet, vet care, and their owners not freaking out around them)*, but more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs, and using an outdated theory that came about from observations of wolves in captivity as support for his method.


Mona, I was refering to an earlier post of mine in which I said I agreed with Cesar on the basics, which any decent dog trainer will say to do.

But for the record, Science Diet is one of those "veterinary recommended" brands and while it may contain "required nutrients," it also contains stuff I won't pay to feed to my dogs.


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## mad for mini's (Jan 7, 2009)

I've watched Ceasar and have seen most of his shows, I always enjoyed them and am amazed at the results he gets. I know there is alot behind the scenes that doesn't get shown and results are not a quick as what it seems but all in all he is amazing. I have to admitt though, I would not want him training my dogs personally but I will and do use his methods with my own dogs. I am the only one that really "knows" my dogs and how much or little "pack leadership" they need. Like mentioned before you take what you can use and leave the rest. The only thing I don't like is his "red zone" cases, I don't care how much training or rehabbing one of those dogs gets, when left in the hands of an untrained person they will relapse and someone will get hurt.


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## Carriage (Jan 7, 2009)

But for the record, Science Diet is one of those "veterinary recommended" brands and while it may contain "required nutrients," it also contains stuff I won't pay to feed to my dogs.





Boy howdy! If its science, its mad science. Used to be the diet with the highest number of known carcinogenic compounds erroneously referred to as "preservatives". Wonder if they were in favor of pinch collars?..............





Bb


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## mininik (Jan 7, 2009)

LOL I like to call it Science Experiment.

From the International Positive Dog Training Association:

What is abuse?

Abuse is physical or psychological injury caused by mistreatment

or the misuse of power associated with authority. It is a corrupt practice

or custom, improper or excessive use or treatment. It is a deceitful act,

it is a communication that condemns or vilifies unjustly,

intemperately and angrily.

The IPDTA defines abuse in training and behaviour modification

as the use of any tool or technique that was created or used with the intent to cause harm to a dog including but not limited to; injury, pain, fear, or mistrust, be it physical, psychological, emotional or behavioural.

Those that truly love dogs will not abuse them!!!

The IPDTA believe the following to be potentially abusive;

choke chains, pinch collars, shock equipment, alpha rollovers and other forms of physical punishment and/or domination, hanging, kicking or hitting of any kind, or any other tool or technique that causes fear or pain for the dog.


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## Boss Mare (Jan 7, 2009)

mininik said:


> mininik said:
> 
> 
> > I*t's not that I think Cesar has absolutely no good points whatsoever (I agree that dogs need a job, socialization, plenty of mental and physical exercise, a healthy diet, vet care, and their owners not freaking out around them)*, but more often than not Cesar is recommending outdated methods to suppress unwanted behaviors based upon his experiences and observations of dogs, and using an outdated theory that came about from observations of wolves in captivity as support for his method.
> ...


I am a dog groomer also. I work for a well known retail pet corp.. did I give it away?! *wink*.. I disagree with a lot and agree with some.. however.. to get into another topic..

I remember watching the show and watching him feed his 'pack' Pedigree dog food..



of course this was before he made special visits to our store, grooming salon, etc.. and introduced a new line of not only dog food, but bottled dog water, beds and toys..


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## Celtic Hill Farm (Jan 7, 2009)

Ok, i got a link of of a link that Mininik posted and found this rather interesting



> He uses physical punishment and “flooding” in order to suppress a dog's behavior. Physical punishment involves applying a physical aversive to reduce the probability of the behavior continuing. “Flooding” refers to physically forcing a dog into an overwhelming situation he or she is afraid of *until the dog “shuts down” or the behavior is suppressed.*


...*silence*...Great!!!... just what i want!



...

here's the link... http://www.dogwhispererdvd.com/faq-nationa..._whisperer.html


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## mininik (Jan 7, 2009)

Boss Mare said:


> I am a dog groomer also. I work for a well known retail pet corp.. did I give it away?! *wink*.. I disagree with a lot and agree with some.. however.. to get into another topic..
> I remember watching the show and watching him feed his 'pack' Pedigree dog food..
> 
> 
> ...



I know which Petsomething you work for because I have seen his line of products there.



Here's a place to read some reviews:

http://www.dogfoodanalysis.com/dog_food_re...042&cat=all

It's not something I'll buy, but I guess at least it's better than Pedigree.


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## My-Lil-Pony (Jan 7, 2009)

Imagine if one were to watch prep and a actual halter class. Twitches, chains, snapping on leads, God Forbid anyone even saw the appliances used on Moderns or Gaited horses. Clipping in a 50 blade, razoring OH! Sarcasam is intended for those not sure





Of course choke chains and other things can be abusive anything can be abusive! I am not strongly promoting him I just find this if it is not my way it is the wrong way overwhelming sometimes.


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## Celtic Hill Farm (Jan 7, 2009)

> Of course choke chains and other things can be abusive anything can be abusive!


I really like what you just said, and I'm going to ad on to it. I think Training collars are appropriate if used in the correct way! Just like some horses just need to be lead with a chain over there nose, Some dogs need a training collar. Sometimes it's just a 'reminder'. I don't think constant use is appropriate, If you are having to constantly "yank" on the chain, obviously something is wrong and just yanking on it dose no good. It really depends on who you are, and how your using it.

*Wait to get slammed*


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## mininik (Jan 7, 2009)

My-Lil-Pony said:


> Imagine if one were to watch prep and a actual halter class. Twitches, chains, snapping on leads, God Forbid anyone even saw the appliances used on Moderns or Gaited horses. Clipping in a 50 blade, razoring OH! Sarcasam is intended for those not sure
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I've been there, done that and don't have to imagine. I've seen enough and am tired of excusing some of the stressful, abusive and downright torturous things people do to animals because that's what it takes "to win," or teach an animal "a lesson." While it's true that "anything can be abusive," some devices and methods lend themselves to being abusive more easily than others.


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## tagalong (Jan 7, 2009)

Well, I guess I am abusive then - flame away - as when my smooth fox terrier has decided that she does not care for another dog at flyball and growls and gets her hackles up to launch at him - she gets a "terrier treatment". An Alpha rollover. Whatever you want to call it. And NO - it is not abusive IMO. I am not picking her up and slamming her to the ground, I am not yelling in her face, I am simply saying NO. In a way that will instantly address the severity of the situation. I am not angry with her - I am just saying in a calm, quiet, BIG way that the current behaviour is a NO. OTOH, my border terrier is a far less confident and cocky little guy and such a thing would be waaaaay over the top for him - and never even considered. Mind you, he is not of the I Can Kick Your Butt No Matter How Big You Are mindset that the smooth is...





And no - I did not learn it from Cesar Milan...







> It is a corrupt practice or custom, *improper or excessive use *or treatment.


Two women who took an agility class with me a couple of years ago thought that they were freakin' Dog Whisperers... of the clicker variety. They argued with the instructor about everything... how best to teach the teeter-totter... the A frame... everything! They knew better!! Why? Because they had read all about agility in a book - and more importantly, they

had the gift of CLICK!! _More like the curse...._





These two dimbulbs and their Sheltie and Bearded Collie turned many people off clicker training in ten short weeks. The lesson was a constant barrage of CLICKCLICKCLICKCLICK with no rhyme or reason to it - punctuated by chirpy Good Boys!! seemingly at random. If the other students and dogs in the class were fed up, their dogs were even more so.

The Sheltie barked non-stop in seeming exasperation - he had no clue what his handler wanted him to do or what was good or bad - as CLICKCLICKCLICK continued unabated. The Beardie had simply tuned everything out. And yet these two women told us they wanted to work with our dogs and "actually train them". Not a chance.

ANY thing can be abusive - when used to excess or in the wrong way.

Science Diet? Ick. I have never liked it and have yet to meet a dog (or cat) who did, to be honest.


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## Carriage (Jan 8, 2009)

tagalong said:


> Well, I guess I am abusive then - flame away
> 
> No flames here. Only gentleness.
> 
> ...


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## Reijel's Mom (Jan 8, 2009)

No flames here. Only gentleness.

For you see, admission is the first step on the road to recovery.

Bb

Huh?


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## Sonya (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't have anything negative to say about Cesar nor anything extremely positive since I know very little about him. But I am always amazed at all the self-proclaimed experts on this forum. Experts who don't even work in the field they claim to be an "expert" on. Some of the "experts" are barely out of college and have very little experience on the subject and life in general. Not that everyone doesn't have something positive to offer, I think they do for the most part...probably even Cesar.

Guess you can chalk me up to being an abusive owner as well as I have used a shock collar before. Don't use it now as there is no need. And I have fed my dog Science Diet prescription....I must be going straight to h_ll.


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## My-Lil-Pony (Jan 8, 2009)

Sonya said:


> . But I am always amazed at all the self-proclaimed experts on this forum. And I have fed my dog Science Diet prescription....I must be going straight to h_ll.



LOL I have fed my now 12 year old large breed dog Pedigree for many years she is wonderful and healthy according to the vet and every routine test she has had. I guess I better decorate my handbasket and be ready to join you


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## Carriage (Jan 8, 2009)

Minimor, I trust you got the feedback you were looking for before it degenerated into attacks by the usual subjects looking to pick fights and marginalize opinion not agreeing with theirs. It would seem that no amount of qualification will suffice for some folk.

Oh well Happy Days. We're finally getting little patches of sunshine today.

Bb

(self proclaimed happy guy who is young on the inside)


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## mininik (Jan 8, 2009)

Tagalong ~ I suggest Leslie McDevitt's book, Control Unleashed. Check out http://www.controlunleashed.net for more info. The alpha roll you are currently doing doesn't allow consideration of why your dog is going after the other dogs or teach him what to do differently (the problem with "NO") and so he keeps repeating the behavior. Is he reactive out of fear? Is he Anxious? Stressed? Over stimulated? Is he redirecting? Does he lack impulse control? Handler focus? Perhaps he just doesn't like every dog he meets (and that's okay). By working with him to teach appropriate alternative behaviors you won't have to alpha roll him anymore.

Sonya ~ Who's claiming to be an expert? Oh, nevermind; look, by definition, since others have different EXPERIENCE and TRAINING, blah blah blah, they, too, can be considered self-proclaimed experts on this thread for their participation! Woohoo.

Main Entry: 1ex·pert

Pronunciation: \ˈek-ˌspərt, ik-ˈ\

Function: adjective

Etymology: Middle English, from Anglo-French & Latin; Anglo-French, from Latin expertus, from past participle of experiri

Date: 14th century

1obsolete : experienced

2: having, involving, or displaying special skill or knowledge derived from training or experience

synonyms see proficient

& My-Lil-Pony ~ Lots of people eat junk food every day and remain (or at least look) healthy for years. Some live a very long life that way. Some people also live long lives smoking cigarattes, doing drugs, not exercising, etc. Some people eat great, don't smoke, don't do drugs and exercise and die young. I don't find any of that a good reason not to feed a better quality diet to myself or my dogs knowing that plenty of dogs and people DO eventually show ill signs of poor nutrition.


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## LowriseMinis (Jan 8, 2009)

mininik said:


> Lots of people eat junk food every day and remain (or at least look) healthy for years. Some live a very long life that way. Some people also live long lives smoking cigarattes, doing drugs, not exercising, etc. Some people eat great, don't smoke, don't do drugs and exercise and die young. I don't find that a good reason not to feed a better quality diet to myself or my dogs knowing that plenty of dogs and people DO eventually show ill signs of poor nutrition.


Exactly. If you CAN do better for your dog, why wouldn't you?

And I guess you can toss me in the anti-Cesar camp, too. He calls himself the Dog Whisperer and I certainly consider him the Monty Roberts of dogs-and no, that isn't a compliment for him!


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## tagalong (Jan 8, 2009)

> No flames here. Only gentleness. For you see, admission is the first step on the road to recovery.


*Carriage* - that is beyond rude and condescending.





The fact that maybe twice a year my smooth fox needs a quiet reminder to not do something inappropriate in the midst of a particular situation - and that you are smugly suggesting that I am abusing her - is way out of line.



> Tagalong ~ I suggest Leslie McDevitt's book, Control Unleashed. Check out http://www.controlunleashed.net for more info. The alpha roll you are currently doing doesn't allow consideration of why your dog is going after the other dogs or teach him what to do differently (the problem with "NO") and so he keeps repeating the behavior. Is he reactive out of fear? Is he Anxious? Stressed? Over stimulated? Is he redirecting? Does he lack impulse control? Handler focus? Perhaps he just doesn't like every dog he meets (and that's okay). By working with him to teach appropriate alternative behaviors you won't have to alpha roll him anymore.


\
*mininik* - I appreciate that you can simply read something and thus expertly diagnose what is going on with Fig. And she does have alternate behaviours to do. I am not the dimwit you seem to think I am. Fig has achieved her ONYX level in Flyball - happily and with enthusiasm - as well as Agility titles... so I guess this dimwit must be doing something right.

Some of it is overstimulation and excitement as it is at Flyball.... you can call it whatever you choose and read all the books in the world (which, again is someone using their experience and their observations to offer solutions - but you already pooh-poohed that approach in earlier posts) but at the moment it is happening (which is rare as I noted) I deal with it quietly, fairly and quickly - and yes, it allows consideration of _why_. Despite what you have diagnosed on a message board without having seen it happen, understanding the situation or knowing Fig and me.

And yes - I have read _Control Unleashed_. But I am sure you realize that all dogs are not robots programmed to do exactly what a book or an expert says they will/should do ... they have their own "book" to follow and their own chapters to write.



> He calls himself the Dog Whisperer and I certainly consider him the Monty Roberts of dogs-and no, that isn't a compliment for him!


Not a compliment at all



.... has Cesar ever claimed to be the Only One to understand the canine language? I know when Monty Roberts said (with a straight face) that he was the first one to discover the language of Equus and the only one to understand it... my eyes rolled into the back of my head and stayed there for a week...

And what I experienced behind the scenes at a Join Up demo just proved that he was a blowhard... but that is off topic for this thread.


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## AppyLover2 (Jan 8, 2009)

I don't even know who Cesar is. Just wanted to say WOW,.... I haven't seen this much "discussion" since Nov 4th (or was it the 5th?).


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## mininik (Jan 8, 2009)

Tagalong ~ I'm sorry, I must have missed my own expert diagnosis? It's great that you've _read_ Control Unleashed.





Thinking of animals as little input-output boxes really isn't the Disneyesque view pet owners love, but it's true. Your dog reacting (even once or twice a year) to me is information. Obviously one can choose to do whatever they want with that information. And your dog is still competing and winning. Of course there are many animals out there who perform amazingly despite even extreme punishment. But even the Monks of New Skete (who popularized the alpha roll in the seventies) have recently taken a stand against such treatment.

Learning is changing what we do.


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## Mona (Jan 8, 2009)

I think it is truely a sad, sad day when all of us dog owners can not be free to take differing approaches to teaching/training our dogs, or to feed our dogs something that others do not approve of! When those people objecting are the ones living the daily life of training/teaching, and feeding, and paying the feed bills for my animals, then fine, they can have their say, but what some of you consider to be "ABUSE" is seeming very close to the same mindset of PETA! In my opinion, it is getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY out of hand!!

Yes, I discipline my dogs, just as I discipline my horses, as have I disciplined my children and even grandchildren. When used accordingly, and not out of control, it does help to teach! I grew up with a few spankings and swats, and getting grounded when needed, and believe me, we learned from it...learned RESPECT, which is far more than many chidren these days show! I feel that our pets can be the same....they need to know their boundaries, and who is boss...one does not have to be mean in order to teach that, but a scolding or light form of punishment will not cause a mental breakdown on a "normal" minded dog. Sure, there always are exceptrions to the rules, but overall, they learn what is acceptable and what is not.

If I am being accused of abuse because of it, then so be it, but I'll be darned if I will hide here (on this forum) too scared to say that I do or what I feed! If my dog needs a scolding or a shake of the neck, or if my horse needs a jerk on the lead or is being forced to "back", or if my child or grandchild gets a swat on the butt, it's because they need a reminder of what is appropriate and what is not!

I feed Pedigree



...have done so for years, always with healthy results. I did take the advice from some on the Forum and switched at one point to Nutro...now that was a bad experience! My shiny, healthy coated dogs became dull and flakey. There was no decrease to the volume of stool. The smell was out of this world, and was not properly formed. After about 4 huge bags of it, I changed back over, and am now happy to see the healthy, shiny coats again. I have also in the past fed canned Pedigree (chicken) in with the dry and I also feed Pedigree DentaStix and Pedigree Jumbone as treats. My dogs LOVE it all, the food and the treats! So sure, maybe I can switch to something different, and just as you said, maybe I can also change my own eating habits to something better, but until you are the one footing the bills for my family and my dogs, you have no say in the matter, and have no right to belittle people here for making the choices they do in what they feed. I am tired of hiding and of being too scared to type something here because of those of you that disapprove. I will not be shamed into doing so any further!

My dogs are very well cared for, very well loved, recieve nutritional food, and wonderful vet care. If I truely felt the food I was feeding was harming them, I would not be feeding it.


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## My-Lil-Pony (Jan 8, 2009)

Thank you Mona for putting into words exactly what I was feeling!



Sometimes this board can be intimidating.


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## mininik (Jan 8, 2009)

Punishment can certainly teach and nobody here has claimed otherwise. That said, punishment does not have to be physical or verbal. Negative Punishment works just as well, especially when you take into consideration that dogs are opportunists not so much concerned with learning our very human concepts of "right and wrong," or even "respect." Negative Punishment also works with kids, horses, cats, whales, monkeys... platipi, etc.

Nutro is not bad, but it isn't one of the best foods out there and is not guaranteed to work for all dogs. Some dogs can't eat kibble no matter WHAT it's made of. Some dogs can't eat raw. If I'm looking to better my diet, just because I may not do well on a diet of frozen TV dinners after coming off of eating junk food, I don't think that's a good reason to stick to McDonalds.





I personally don't believe one diet (from a can, box or bag) for life can be complete and so I keep my dogs on a rotational diet of top brands and raw. No matter what I feed I have no doubt that my carnivores should not be eating Ground Whole Corn, (Mystery) Meat and Bone Meal, Corn Gluten Meal, (Mystery) Animal Fat (preserved with BHA/BHT - _a carcinogen_) or Wheat Mill Run, and that's mainly what makes up Pedigree. I believe it's been said on the forum that most who own horses aren't dirt poor, so I'm going to go out on a limb here and say that whether you can afford feeding something more expensive or not would depend upon priorities. In other words, I could have ten dogs here instead of seven, but would probably have to stop feeding them as well or cut back on the lattes and eating out.


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## anoki (Jan 8, 2009)

Mona said:


> I think it is truely a sad, sad day when all of us dog owners can not be free to take differing approaches to teaching/training our dogs, or to feed our dogs something that others do not approve of! When those people objecting are the ones living the daily life of training/teaching, and feeding, and paying the feed bills for my animals, then fine, they can have their say, but what some of you consider to be "ABUSE" is seeming very close to the same mindset of PETA! In my opinion, it is getting WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAYYYYYY out of hand!!


You know what Mona, I totally agree with what you are saying!!

I posted my thoughts, because minimor wanted to know. The only reason I posted another reply was because *I* felt attacked.

Yes, I train with positive reinforcement, but I didn't always train this way. Had I not seen dogs turned around with this training, I probably wouldn't be doing it. But that is just 'why' I train this way. Just because I train with positive reinforcement DOES NOT mean my dogs are 'spoiled', that they don't listen to me and that they walk all over me. My dogs respect me...and know how to behave. I don't care how other people train their dogs, but I do hope they are open to 'other' training methods as I am. I don't use a clicker...can't stand them, and find 'most' (NOT ALL) people who train with them, don't understand what they are doing with them. I post about dog food when someone asks, but if they don't agree with it, I don't care..if they want more information, they know how to get ahold of me. I offered my opinion, I will not shove it down their throat. I guess what upsets me the most about Cesar are the people that watch (or read) him, take what they see and use it on ANY dog without really understanding when to use it.

But I digress..I'm not writing this to bash training methods or nutrition.

I am also "tired of hiding and of being too scared to type something here because of those of you that disapprove". Tired of being pegged as someone who because of my age has no knowledge of what I'm talking about and lack of life experiences or not enough experience in what I'm talking about to make a 'knowledgeable' comment on it. Whether these comments were aimed at me, or not, I don't care..but because of my age I guess I fit in the 'mould'.

No one has the right to post comments like that. You (not you Mona..this isn't aimed at you at all..these are just general statements that I've picked up on over time) do not know me, do not know what I have done in my life, and do not know what experiences I have or haven't had.

I'm tired of people 'labeling' people after one or two comments or posts...I feel like I'm some idiot yahoo who lets my dogs run all over me, which is far from how I am with them.

I hate people getting into such hot debates over things. Discussions are good. It allows people to voice opinions and maybe bring up some things (on both sides of the discussion) that the other side hadn't thought of before. But getting into verbal spats about things does no one any good...it just hurts people, whether it is intended to hurt the ones that it does end up hurting or not.

I've been really down for the past few months...had to put down my best friend for the past 12 years, have not gotten over it and have not forgiven myself for making the decision...and found out someone I held as a good friend, was no more than a leech who didn't care about my thoughts, opinions or emotions, unless it benefited them. People have really let me down the past few months....doesn't seem like it's getting much better.

I'll go back to posting on threads where opinions don't matter...

~kathryn


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## tagalong (Jan 8, 2009)

*mininik* - you know, I love a good discussion and an exchange of ideas and opinions - but it would help if you could discuss without being so condescending and dismissive at times...



> Thinking of animals as little input-output boxes really isn't the Disneyesque view pet owners love, but it's true.


Where did that come from?

No dog in my entire life - or horse, for that matter - has ever been thought of as a little "input-output box". That sounds PETA-esque as opposed to Disneyesque.







> Your dog reacting (even once or twice a year) to me is information.


_Information about *what*?_





You have no idea of the dynamics in the situations involved... or know anything about Fig and me... or the other dogs and handlers present - and yet you can sit at your computer hundreds of miles away and decide I am being abusive? Without knowing anything about what was going on - you simply pass judgment...

Wrong.







> Obviously one can choose to do whatever they want with that information.


And again - _what information would that be? _



> It's great that you've _read _Control Unleashed.


Yes - I read it..... and have been using the exercises to help Tug be more confident and focussed (he is a work in progress, as always) - so why the snide comment?



> Learning is changing what we do.


I think you need to heed your own words a bit here.

Learning is indeed changing what we do - and I have over the years and will continue to do so.

Happy, well-rounded, obedience, agility, flyball, therapy and couch potato dogs are the result.

Learning is also realizing that you do not have all the answers - even if you think you do... and that using all those answers that you do not have to airily and summarily pass judgment on others is misguided.

And that - for the umpteenth time - there is no One Way to do anything - as dogs (or horses) are not robots who have read all the books and understand what they are expected to do in any given circumstance - and then behave accordingly.

As far as diet goes... I am still amazed that *Sonya's* dog likes Science Diet. That is not a slam - I just have never known a dog or cat who actually liked it. My guys vary between certain natural kibbles and supplements on rotation... raw does not agree with them.

But when a past boss's borzois lived to be 15 and 16 eating only Pedigree and the odd can of cheap, crappy dog food as a special "treat"... I am not about to lecture others on feeding. We all do what is best for our own dogs...





*anoki* - ((((HUGS))))


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## mininik (Jan 9, 2009)

tagalong said:


> *mininik* - it would help if you could discuss without being so condescending and dismissive at times...


Okay, I'll try to lead by your example.



LOL How cute is that?



tagalong said:


> You have no idea of the dynamics in the situations involved... or know anything about Fig and me... or the other dogs and handlers present - and yet you can sit at your computer hundreds of miles away and decide I am being abusive??!! Without knowing anything about what was going on - you simply pass judgment?





tagalong said:


> Learning is also realizing that you do not have all the answers - even if you think you do... and that using all those answers that you do not have to airily and summarily pass judgment on others is misguided.


I think I have all of the answers? How did I pass judgement? I said your dog reacting is information. What I meant is: A dog breaking a sit is information. A dog begging at the table is information, and so on. Input in-Input out. Please note that I didn't say WHAT information or that I think your dog IS anything (ex. reactive, lacking in handler focus, etc.) or even that I think you are abusing him as you believe it "seemed" when I went on to say that there are many animals who perform amazingly despite extreme abuse. I suggested a book. You've already read it. I mentioned that alpha rolls are no longer recommended by the trainers who popularized them. That's all.



tagalong said:


> And that - for the umpteenth time - there is no One Way to do anything - as dogs (or horses) are not robots who have read all the books and understand what they are expected to do in any given circumstance - and then behave accordingly.
> They don't have to read the books.


No, animals aren't robots and can't read, but their behavior can be modified without the use of verbal and physical punishment and as PETA-esque as it may sound, I think they should be.



tagalong said:


> But when a past boss's borzois lived to be 15 and 16 eating only Pedigree and the odd can of crappy dog food... I am not about to lecture others on feeding.


I've seen people who lived into their 80's, 90's and 100's eating junk, smoking, doing drugs, etc. I guess we shouldn't discuss alternatives and I'll be sure to have my feelings hurt the next time some health nut talks about why they wouldn't eat Hot Tamales with Diet Coke because of the unhealthy preservatives and aspartame in those foods. Oh well, I like eating junk food and it's certainly cheaper than the organic food those health nuts push, plus with all these animals to feed, well... _priorities._


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## tagalong (Jan 9, 2009)

> How did I pass judgement? I said your dog reacting is information. What I meant is: A dog breaking a sit is information. A dog begging at the table is information, and so on. Input in-Input out. Please note that I didn't say WHAT information or that I think your dog IS anything (ex. reactive, lacking in handler focus, etc.) or even that I think you are abusing him as you believe it "seemed" when I went on to say that there are many animals who perform amazingly despite extreme abuse. I suggested a book. You've already read it. I mentioned that alpha rolls are no longer recommended by the trainers who popularized them. That's all.


I edited out my answer to the extreme abuse comment - as I figured you would simply dismiss it.... and sure enough - you did.

You implied that you could glean "information" from what little I said - without, as I noted, knowing anything about the situation. That suggested to me that you "knew" how to fix it or had some great insight as to how I was wrong. You did suggest that I abused her - and I am sorry - that is not something to be airily tossed out there. Ever. And it could not be further from the truth. That's all.

I said I had read a book that you recommended - and then you even came back with a sneer and a wink about _that...._



...as if you did not believe me - or perhaps thought I did not "get it"...



> I guess we shouldn't discuss alternatives and I'll be sure to have my feelings hurt the next time some health nut talks about why they wouldn't eat Hot Tamales with Diet Coke because of the unhealthy preservatives and aspartame in those foods.


Where did I - or anyone else - say alternatives could not be discussed? Everyone is more than entitled to share their opinion...

Learning - is also not being dismissive of others.

Carry on - I'll go back to abusing that poor traumatized terrier... and as I do not get the National Geographic channel - I rarely get to see Cesar Milan... (how's that for struggling to drag this thread back on topic?



) and only record it to see what he is up to when NG is on free at times ... but to sum it all up, he has good points and bad - I do not care for everything he does and prefer other approaches but we all have differing opinions on that.

And I am still in the process of learning along with the dogs and horses - and always will be. I'll never have all the answers - and thus I will never _always _be "right" - about _anything_...





[SIZE=8pt]_*edited stuff out because it was simply not worth it... *_[/SIZE]


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## mininik (Jan 9, 2009)

tagalong said:


> I edited out my answer to the extreme abuse comment - as I figured you would simply dismiss it.... and sure enough - you did.


Yep, because I wasn't implying that you were "extremely abusing" your terrier.



> You implied that you could glean "information" from what little I said - without, as I noted, knowing anything about the situation. That suggested that you "knew" how to fix it or had some great insight as to how I was wrong. You did "suggest" that I abused her - and I am sorry - that is not something to be airily tossed out there. Ever. And it could not be further from the truth. That's all.


I _could_ glean "information" from what little you said, but I did not say I knew how to fix your dog, did I? I _suggested_ a book, I did not say "THIS WILL FIX IT!" Do I think alpha rolls are abusive? If I do, does it really matter? I did post where the International Positive Dog Training Association says it is. Is that airily tossing it out there?



> I said I had read a book that you recommended - and then you even came back with a sneer and a wink about _that. _
> 
> 
> 
> ...as if you did not believe me - or perhaps thought I did not "get it"...


...or as if _reading_ the book and _applying_ it are two separate things.

PS. I believe the emoticon is simply "wink."


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## tagalong (Jan 9, 2009)

> Yep, because I wasn't implying that you were "extremely abusing" your terrier.


Hmmm... you apparently did not see the whole comment before I edited but only caught it halfway. Oh well, there's no going back there now.



> ...or as if _reading_ the book and _applying_ it are two separate things.


Because of course, you dismissively decided that I would not_ apply _ any of those ideas - which was wrong. You simply decided - or "knew" - that I did not "get it" - as I surmised in my last post. But you were/are mistaken. Apparently I am smarter than you think I am - I "got it", thanks. Please go back and reread what I said about how Tug my border terrier benefitted before you start pointing fingers again... [SIZE=8pt]ETA: but you did anyway. [/SIZE]

*mininik* - you suggested abuse... _without caring about the circumstances or knowing the dogs and people involved in any way _- nope - you know better. Only - you were/are wrong.

And I'll leave it at that.

Good night.


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## mininik (Jan 9, 2009)

You said you read the book and later said you used parts of it. I don't believe it's a book intended to be used in part for behavior modification. Of course one can only reply to the information given on forums. And whether or not I'm wrong thinking alpha rolls are abusive really depends upon who you ask. To clarify, do I think you are _extremely abusing_ your dog when you alpha roll him? From your description of his reaction, no. Do I think the punishment is working? Not if you have to keep repeating it. Do I think his behavior could be modified without coercion to eliminate the need for alpha rolls? Most definitely, and I have no problem whatsoever admitting that _I_ may not know how to do it.


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