# $2000 Dwarf!!!!



## trickhorses (Sep 15, 2010)

I am speechless. There is a dwarf someone is selling for $2000!!!. That is ridiculous! - dwarves are special needs and require a lot of care and upkeep. They should not be put in the wrong hands nor sold for exuberant amounts of money like this!. I hope whoever buys this will know this is a dwarf. I would hate to see someone purchase this filly not knowing any better and try and breed it not to mention if they don't know she is a dwarf, they won't know how to care for it!!!

I emailed the woman to inform her that her filly was a dwarf and she said that she knows what she is and that she also knows people will pay a lot of money for it! OMG, If that isn't pure greed, I don't know what is.

If anyone wants the link to the ad. They can PM me here as I can't post it directly on here.


----------



## MindyLee (Sep 15, 2010)

This just makes me sick!!! She needs to be slaped in the face! Sorry but thats how I feel!!!


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 15, 2010)

I know. I saw the same ad and also contacted her thinking maybe she didn't know.

Her response to me was that all minis have higher health risks than other horses and her sire and dam will continue to be used for breeding.


----------



## MiniDashofBlue (Sep 15, 2010)

It is very sad what some people think of dwarfs. We went to a local horse auction and they had a dwarf for sale. The poor horse could barely walk, his legs were streched out behind him, and better yet, he was an intact stallion! I couldnt believe it when he sold for $400, not much lower than most of the horses being sold, and to a mexican charro none the less.


----------



## sfmini (Sep 16, 2010)

What a shame.

Worse, people will pay that money for a dwarf and then ignore nice registered minis that can't even bring a couple of hundred bucks.

Maybe with this economy she won't get it, I know I am getting just about zero response on my horses so hope she has the same bad luck.

BTW, Danielle, I owe you some pictures if you are still interested in seeing them, haven't been able to take them but should be able to get them this weekend.

PM me the link, you have me curious.


----------



## REO (Sep 16, 2010)

Can someone PM me the link too please?


----------



## palsminihorses (Sep 16, 2010)

Sadly, there is a sale in MO where the dwarves bring *a lot higher* prices than the registered horses!


----------



## Maple Hollow Farm (Sep 16, 2010)

That is really sad especially if they are planning to reproduce more of them!







palsminihorses said:


> Sadly, there is a sale in MO where the dwarves bring *a lot higher* prices than the registered horses!



I think I know which sale you are referring to and yes it is rediculous there was one that sold for $4000 and we couldnt get more than $300 for good broodmares! I was very happy though this spring when they werent bringing very much although still too much in my opinion! One person even no saled hers because she thought it was worth so much more...


----------



## ssshowhorses (Sep 16, 2010)

We we're at a sale this year that had two dwarf "broodmares" go through, one went for 3000 and the other for 3200. The well bred horses with extensive show records couldn't bring a few hundred dollars. I truly believe that if you breed miniature small enough that they may produce dwarfs you have to be willing to take on the responsibility of either keeping them of finding them a pet home that is willing to care for them properly. I hope this dwarf ends up at an apropriate home


----------



## Mona (Sep 16, 2010)

> I truly believe that if you breed miniature small enough that they may produce dwarfs you have to be willing to take on the responsibility of either keeping them of finding them a pet home that is willing to care for them properly.


It's not necessarily/only "small" that produces dwarfs. Dwarfism is genetic, passed down through reproduction like other genes. Even tall horses can throw dwarf foals.


----------



## minimoesmom (Sep 16, 2010)

We bought a dwarf at a local horse sale in May, for $100. No one wanted her, but she looked pathetic, so of course I had to have her. She had horribly overgrown hooves and could barely walk, and matted hair at least 6 inches long and lice. While I was paying for her a man with several small children came up to me and asked me if I'd sell her, and said "my kids are heartbroken because we didn't get her". I told him she is a dwarf and she needed special care, including frequent dental exams and farrier work, and asked him if he knew anything about dwarves. He said no, he didn't realize that. So then I felt happy I'd bought her, if only I could save them all! The farrier who we've had working on her hooves said she wasn't foundered but it was pure neglect. She is walking and running now and I wouldn't sell her for a million dollars! I am so glad that we found each other that day at the sale.


----------



## miniwhinny (Sep 16, 2010)

ssshowhorses said:


> I truly believe that if you breed miniature small enough that they may produce dwarfs you have to be willing to take on the responsibility of either keeping them of finding them a pet home that is willing to care for them properly. I hope this dwarf ends up at an apropriate home


Height has nothing to do with dwarfism. You don't produce a dwarf because you breed small minis. You could breed two 25" minis together every year their whole lives and if they don't have the dwarf gene you'll never produce a dwarf. You produce a dwarf because the horses you are breeding carry the dwarf gene. There's as much chance of a larger mini producing a dwarf as a small one.


----------



## lorene (Sep 16, 2010)

miniwhinny said:


> Height has nothing to do with dwarfism. You don't produce a dwarf because you breed small minis. You could breed two 25" minis together every year their whole lives and if they don't have the dwarf gene you'll never produce a dwarf. You produce a dwarf because the horses you are breeding carry the dwarf gene. There's as much chance of a larger mini producing a dwarf as a small one.


Did you know there is a problem with Friseian Horses producing dwarf foals?


----------



## PaintedMeadows (Sep 16, 2010)

I had no idea! What do they look like? Same as a mini dwarf? Are there any pictures or info anywhere? I would love to read more about it.


----------



## HGFarm (Sep 16, 2010)

I have seen the ad you are refering to, and also an ad for the filly's sire too. I see where she gets it as he also shows dwarfy characteristics to me too.

I am glad you notified the owner that it is a dwarf. By her ad, it really didnt sound like she knew much and was told the horse was a 'rare tiny' horse that wasn't growing any more, etc....


----------



## ohmt (Sep 16, 2010)

I am also curious and would like the link if anyone would be willing to send it


----------



## chandab (Sep 16, 2010)

I googled "Dwarf Friesian" and there are lots of hits. I think this is the one most have seen: http://www.dragonflyacres.ca/pb/wp_06597de2/wp_06597de2.html

I know I saw other pics somewhere of a dwarf Friesian, just can't remember where.


----------



## Versatility Farm & Training (Sep 16, 2010)

trickhorses said:


> I am speechless. There is a dwarf someone is selling for $2000!!!. That is ridiculous! - dwarves are special needs and require a lot of care and upkeep. They should not be put in the wrong hands nor sold for exuberant amounts of money like this!. I hope whoever buys this will know this is a dwarf. I would hate to see someone purchase this filly not knowing any better and try and breed it not to mention if they don't know she is a dwarf, they won't know how to care for it!!!
> 
> I emailed the woman to inform her that her filly was a dwarf and she said that she knows what she is and that she also knows people will pay a lot of money for it! OMG, If that isn't pure greed, I don't know what is.
> 
> If anyone wants the link to the ad. They can PM me here as I can't post it directly on here.



Can you send me the link?

I don't see a problem with continuing to breed the stalliion and mare, they may never have another dwarf, as long as they are not bred together again or to another horse carrying the gene. A lot of horses that have built our industry to what it is today have had a dwarf foal, but without their other foals we wouldn't be where we are today. But responcible breeders know not to cross those pairs again after producing a dwarf.

Now selling a genetic deformity for big money is not respectable! I think many times the high price is due to false advertising... "the smallest horse" when really it is a dwarf and things like that. But even selling asa dwarf, how can anyone ask for that much? I can see asking for $200-500 maybe just to make sure, if someone is going to pay for a horse, they are more likely to take care of it than if they got it free.


----------



## Shari (Sep 17, 2010)

chandab said:


> I googled "Dwarf Friesian" and there are lots of hits. I think this is the one most have seen: http://www.dragonflyacres.ca/pb/wp_06597de2/wp_06597de2.html
> 
> I know I saw other pics somewhere of a dwarf Friesian, just can't remember where.



That was incredibly sad.





No breeder, no matter the breed, should breed animals that have thrown even mile Dwarfs. Just too bad there are many people out there that do and on purpose and the pain they cause these poor animals because of their greed.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 17, 2010)

ssshowhorses said:


> I truly believe that if you breed miniature small enough that they may produce dwarfs you have to be willing to take on the responsibility of either keeping them of finding them a pet home that is willing to care for them properly. I hope this dwarf ends up at an apropriate home



The size of the breeding pair has ZERO to do with getting a dwarf, just so you know.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 17, 2010)

Versatility Farm & Training said:


> I don't see a problem with continuing to breed the stalliion and mare, they may never have another dwarf, as long as they are not bred together again or to another horse carrying the gene. A lot of horses that have built our industry to what it is today have had a dwarf foal, but without their other foals we wouldn't be where we are today. But responcible breeders know not to cross those pairs again after producing a dwarf.


Usually agree with the things you post, but not this time. Yes, I am well aware that some very famous horses have produced dwarves in addition to their national and world champion get. But a hundred years from now will others look back and say it was worth it because of the visually acceptable/good conformation foals they produced? I'm not convinced. If those horses had been pulled from the breeding pool, we may by in a much better place now. Maybe not. But I don't see the merit to continuing to use ANY horse that has produced a dwarf. You know the horse now carries the gene and you know it can be passed - even if you can't see it in the foal. Then that foal goes on to produce horses and they can either be a non-carrier, a carrier or a full-blown dwarf (if bred to another carrier). If you've ever experienced the heartbreak, pain and suffering, you may feel differently.

Ok, I'm going to try and stop, but this topic makes me crazy!


----------



## Becky (Sep 17, 2010)

> Ok, I'm going to try and stop, but this topic makes me crazy!


On that we can agree!

But, until we have genetic testing available to prove or disprove that defective horses are indeed carrying genes for dwarfism, I would be very hesitant to take good horses out of the gene pool. Environmental factors can cause serious deformities in developing fetuses. Chemicals such as those used in pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers are known to cause birth defects. Fescue is now being implicated in some cases. Anyone having horses that produce defective foals needs to look closely at their environment before chalking it all up to genetics. Miniature horses are much more susceptible to the toxic effects of these than their full size counterparts due to their small size and weight.

Just my 2 cents......


----------



## Taylor Richelle (Sep 17, 2010)

That is pure ignorance and greed. I am very curious to see the link. could someone PM me the link? Thank you!


----------



## Sue_C. (Sep 17, 2010)

> I don't see a problem with continuing to breed the stalliion and mare, they may never have another dwarf, as long as they are not bred together again or to another horse carrying the gene.


And how do you KNOW the other horses they are bred to are not carriers as well...you are still taking the change of producing another full dwarf...at the very best, you are passing it on in normal looking prodgeny.



> But, until we have genetic testing available to prove or disprove that defective horses are indeed carrying genes for dwarfism, I would be very hesitant to take good horses out of the gene pool.


Sorry, but IMO, a dwarf producing horse...is NOT a "good horse". PERIOD.



> Environmental factors can cause serious deformities in developing fetuses. Chemicals such as those used in pesticides, herbicides and fertilizers are known to cause birth defects. Fescue is now being implicated in some cases. Anyone having horses that produce defective foals needs to look closely at their environment before chalking it all up to genetics. Miniature horses are much more susceptible to the toxic effects of these than their full size counterparts due to their small size and weight.


That is true...but these causes can be examined and proven to be at fault. if we keep our heads in the samd, and pretend dwarfism isn't a problem, we will nevfer rid ourselves of it. Keep blaming it on something else...that does not help the breed.


----------



## Ourhobbyfarm (Sep 20, 2010)

I have a dwarf that I purchased for more money then a registered mini. I have the funds and knowledge to take care of her, so I'm fine with people selling them for a fair amount of money. If they were free who knows the kind of conditions they would be living in. They need homes too. While I agree they should not be purposely bred they are still a loving animal and need a caring home. Sometimes charging more money helps assure they will get the care that they need. I'm just curious why there are not more for sale because I would rather see a genetic mistake be taken care by a caring home then destroyed secretly by a breeder that doesn't want it known that their stud/broodmare produced a dwarf.

If you have owned one you would know how special they are. I find it interesting how the mini world is towards dwarf horses. It's just like humans, sometimes you get a tiny person or someone with special needs. That's simply what a dwarf horse it. I have had horses all my life and my dwarf horse is the most fiesty, cheerful, kind horse I have ever owned. They joy that this tiny horse bring to everyone that meets her is a great gift.


----------



## HGFarm (Sep 20, 2010)

I absolutely disagree with SELLING a dwarf to anyone. It is up to the owner to thoroughly screen the home it is going to, to make sure they are aware of the issues and have the finances and knowledge to care for it properly.

I have seen dwarfs come in, even some from out of state, that were given to various folks over the years who provided them with very loving homes.

I would rather see someone taking in a dwarf spend the money they have on caring for the dwarf and vet and farrier bills, not lining someone else's pocket, on top of all the other bills that are going to come with it!





No where did that ad advise anyone that the mare was a dwarf and would require extra care and treatment and have a much shorter life span than a 'normal' horse. I would rather see someone spend their $2000 on care than to line my pocket with it and send my 'problem child' off to someone else!


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Sep 20, 2010)

Totally disagree with selling a dwarf on the open market at all, let alone for a lot of money!

Having enough money to ensure correct care does not, automatically, make you a good owner, sorry.

I would rather see the money spent on buying the poor thing go towards it's care in the future. As to breeding again? No, absolutely not, do not care how good a horse is, the mare and the stallion should be taken out of the gene pool.

That, my children, is why Friesans may have an occasional dwarf foal born, but the breed does not have a "problem" per se, with dwarfs.

They ruthlessly eradicated all lines _known_to have produced dwarfs.

They did _not_say, "oh, but they are brilliant show horses"

So, certain lines are no longer able to be registered in the Friesan Stud Book.

Of course, that will not prevent their being registered in stud books in other countries.

And so the problem goes on.

We all here know, I think, that the dwarf gene is commonly held to be recessive, which means simply that BOTH parents must have one half of the gene in order for a full blown dwarf to occur.

We do not yet know what causes horses to have dwarf characteristics, it may well be that, genetically, these horses actually are dwarfs, in the way that both a horse showing ticking and a pure white horse are both "Sabino"

We just do not know.

BUT since BOTH horses carry the dwarf genetic, although they will both need to be mated to another carrying the same genetic, they will also, mated to a horse not carrying any dwarf genetic, each and every time they are bred, have a 50/50 chance of passing on the "defective" (sorry but speaking as a dwarf I feel I can say this is a defect) gene.

We should not be doing this, it is bad for the breed!

Whilst dwarfs will probably always occasionally, spontaneously occur, that is no excuse for allowing them to do so, or even encouraging them to do so.




OK, getting down now!!!


----------



## Ourhobbyfarm (Sep 20, 2010)

I'll keep spending my money on a dwarf horse because to me that is a better option then the breeder destroying them. A life is a life. If they are free that's fine, if they cost money that's fine too because maybe they are using that money to pay to feed their other horses. I think it's time to stop assuming people are doing things for the wrong reasons. I don't think it's right to post a link someone's ad and email and harass them about it. You do not know their personal situation or live their life.


----------



## sharpllook (Sep 20, 2010)

Hmm just at a sale with $35 horses. Good $business says to raise dwarfs.

If most people would put their noses into the horse market rather than other business first!

THERE are a ton of nice horses on the market dirt cheap. Take advantage of of the market for future.

Also, a horse does not have to win a national award to make it valueable.

I know of too many horses that would NEVER win a halter class but wins the hearts of young/old alike.

My point is if hospitals can charge $25 per Bayer asprine who are we to say someone can not pay X amount to for any horse.

My thoughts and yes, I am being snooty.

DONT JUST BELLYACHE DO SOMETHING.


----------



## JWC sr. (Sep 21, 2010)

We have some folks here in Texas that specialize in producing dwarfs and ask big bucks for them and get it. Unfortunately!! And no I will not post their name etc. as they do not deserve any free advertising.





It is a real shame when folks intentionally produce them and then sell to the highest bidder. It is bad enough to get one by accident and then have to deal with all the inherent problems of raising and caring for one!





As for our farm and our breeding program, if we ever produce a dwarf, the stallion will be gelded and the mare will be given to someone as a pet with a as good as I can make it contract never to be bred etc. i wish there was some economical way to sterilize the mares also. But I have not heard of one.





It is indeed a problem in our miniature gene pool and this is the main reason I can't wait for genetic testing to be finally available for all of us. It is going to drastically change the way everyone picks bloodlines and breeds in our industry. Also it is a really prime reason not to close the hardship of horses into AMHA. It could and probably will be very serious in the very near future when the testing is finally produced.


----------



## Songcatcher (Sep 21, 2010)

As I see it, there are two sides to this debate:

1) I believe it is unethical for a person to purposely produce an animal destined to a lifetime of suffering.

2) People who pay big prices for these animals are contributing to the problem. If there is no market for them, people will quit purposely producing them.

We really do need to do a better job of teaching economics in school. Supply and demand.


----------



## Sue_C. (Sep 21, 2010)

> As I see it, there are two sides to this debate:
> 1) I believe it is unethical for a person to purposely produce an animal destined to a lifetime of suffering.
> 
> 2) People who pay big prices for these animals are contributing to the problem. If there is no market for them, people will quit purposely producing them.
> ...


Exactly...and it is SOOOO hard, when dwarfism is being exploited with help from the unknowing media. The only miniatures one EVER sees on TV or hears about in the news etc...are dwarves. There are the "guide" horses, Thumbelina and the like...that is all I hear about from people outside of our little miniature world. I did hear that Oprah is planning a miniature horse on one of her shows...if there is a dwarf I will scream!!!


----------



## sfmini (Sep 21, 2010)

John, you can spay mares. Not sure of the cost, but that is the option for ensuring the mare is never bred again.


----------



## JWC sr. (Sep 21, 2010)

The last time I talked to our vet about spaying the cost for doing so was 1400.00. Pretty pricey in our book. But yes you are correct it can be done.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Sep 21, 2010)

Songcatcher said:


> As I see it, there are two sides to this debate:
> 
> 1) I believe it is unethical for a person to purposely produce an animal destined to a lifetime of suffering.
> 
> ...


I agree completely with this statement!

Everyone and anyone could , accidentally, get a dwarf.

As I see it they then have a responsibility to make sure those animals that produced it do not breed again.

If the "old" breeders had done that we would not have the problem that we have today....


----------



## Eohippus (Sep 21, 2010)

What if the leading stallion (most winning, best producing, flawless conformation, etc) of the industry produced a dwarf? Would you want him cut from the gene pool? If you had any of his foals would you then stop breeding his foals too?

I'm just wondering how far the "cut them from the gene pool" goes?

This is such a hard and complicated topic! It makes me glad I just have minis for fun (showing, therapy, etc) instead of having to worry about dwarfism when breeding!!!


----------



## JWC sr. (Sep 21, 2010)

Eohippus' I can't speak for anyone else,but yes that is exactly how far I will go. 4 years ago I cut a stallion and his two sons for producing a smaller testicle in each of his sons. I had paid 13,500 for him and it hurt. But he is now a great driving gelding for a good friend of ours. Unless we police ourselves, no one else will!!


----------



## Sue_C. (Sep 21, 2010)

> What if the leading stallion (most winning, best producing, flawless conformation, etc) of the industry produced a dwarf? Would you want him cut from the gene pool? If you had any of his foals would you then stop breeding his foals too?
> I'm just wondering how far the "cut them from the gene pool" goes?


IMO, "cut from the gene pool goes ALL THE WAY. Who CARES if _he_ has flawless conformation, if he PRODUCES dwarves, and carriers. What good is his conformation if it is tainted? Good heavens, there is another horse around every corner with great conformation, and championships up the ying-yang that might not have ever produced a dwarf...there is absolutely no reason to continue breeding one that already has. NONE-AT-ALL-E-V-E-R...

KUDOS to you John...if all breeders had your integrity, we wouldn't have this problem.


----------



## maestoso (Sep 21, 2010)

If we stopped the use of breeding EVERY miniature horse that was a suspected dwarf carrier, yes, we would eliminate dwarfs from the breed. However, we would also likely eliminate well more than half of our breeding stock.


----------



## Mini Gaits Farm (Sep 21, 2010)

maestoso said:


> If we stopped the use of breeding EVERY miniature horse that was a suspected dwarf carrier, yes, we would eliminate dwarfs from the breed. However, we would also likely eliminate well more than half of our breeding stock.



This is so very true.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 21, 2010)

JWC sr. said:


> Eohippus' I can't speak for anyone else,but yes that is exactly how far I will go. 4 years ago I cut a stallion and his two sons for producing a smaller testicle in each of his sons. I had paid 13,500 for him and it hurt. But he is now a great driving gelding for a good friend of ours. Unless we police ourselves, no one else will!!



John, you are my hero!



This is the ONLY way we're ever going to eliminate this horrible problem. You are EXACTLY the type of breeder we should all hope to 1) buy from and 2) model ourselves after!


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 21, 2010)

maestoso said:


> If we stopped the use of breeding EVERY miniature horse that was a suspected dwarf carrier, yes, we would eliminate dwarfs from the breed. However, we would also likely eliminate well more than half of our breeding stock.



Yes Matt, that may well be the result. Are you saying that would be a bad thing? If what you are culling is the most undesirable trait in the history of our breed, is that bad? What if the hundreds (probably thousands) of horses that were born of known producers (even those producers that had world champion titles to their credit) were born of other seemingly non-dwarf producing horses replaced them in demand? Where might we be today? I have no crystal ball so I don't know, but I wonder.


----------



## Sue_C. (Sep 21, 2010)

> If we stopped the use of breeding EVERY miniature horse _that was a suspected dwarf carrier,_ yes, we would eliminate dwarfs from the breed. However, we would also likely eliminate well more than half of our breeding stock.


No, I say cull the ones that are KNOWN carriers. How can that be a bad thing?? If there is ever a test for dwarfism, it will make it easier...we could possibly breed a carrier to a non carrier, and geld the resultant carrier colts and issue non-breeding papers on the carrier fillies, should there be any. The non-carrying foals would get regular papers, free to breed. This would mean testing would have to be done on ALL breeding miniatures in the beginning, but once tested, non-carriers bred to non-carriers would have no need for foals to be tested. A hardship in the beginning for sure, but I think it would be worth the $$. I think this would eventually prevent people from breeding to the carriers because of the financial burden if nothing else. Seems it was the pocketbook that caused this mess, so it could be the pocketbook that gets us out of it.


----------



## disneyhorse (Sep 21, 2010)

There is NO reason to breed a horse that has a bad bite, locking stifle (even if they "grow out of it"), slow-to-descend testicles (even if they "eventually drop"), dwarfism, or any other undesirable characteristic. There are PLENTY of horses out there that don't have those issues.

People always have some sort of reason to breed (They only have club feet or toe out because of a bad farrier... the bite may have been "on" if a dentist had seen the horse as a youngster and both parents had good bites... locking stifle only because of "mineral deficiencies"... ) but is that the right thing to do to perpetuate the breed?

I appreciate all the ethical breeders out there who geld otherwise fantastic stallions. Nothing wrong with a fantastic gelding!

Andrea


----------



## targetsmom (Sep 21, 2010)

I agree with Sue_C - things could get a lot better if/when there is a test for dwarfism and the test results are used responsibly and correctly. Unlike some other undesirable traits (locking stifle, bad bite) where, as far as I know the genetics aren't understood, you can only produce a dwarf from TWO carriers. Think of it like LWO+ - all you need to do to avoid a lethal white foal is TEST, and not breed a mare and stallion that are both LWO+. It does NOT mean that you have to destroy every frame overo on the planet to eliminate lethal white foals. Same thing could work for dwarfism if people understood the genetics and tested. Just test and don't breed two dwarf carriers together.

For some perspective on how common the dwarf gene may be, I ran a poll on here a few years ago and over 40% of the respondents admitted they had had a dwarf foal or fetus produced on their farm. I suspect this may be why there aren't more people pushing for the development of the test for dwarfism - they don't need a test if they already know the sire/dam have produced a dwarf.


----------



## Tony (Sep 21, 2010)

Having been around miniatures since before they were called miniatures, I have seen lots and lots of history, including applications of many dwarves that were sent in seeking registration before many people knew what a dwarf was. I was on the AMHA board in some capacity for almost thirteen years, including almost six years as executive secretary, so during much of that time I literally saw hundreds of questionable applications and inspected quite a few in person. I can tell you positively, had the idea of eliminating every dwarf producer from the registry been the rule from the beginning, our history and especially our World Champions would be a very different group of horses because many of our very top of the line horses would have been relegated to gelding or non breeding status. I personally think that would have been a shame. To eliminate them after one mistake, or even more, when they may have produced from one to a hundred excellent offspring is not the route that I would take, then or now. If a pairing results in a dwarf, I do not repeat it, and try to make sure that two known carriers are never bred together. Sometimes with young horses that is difficult and I would welcome a test for the gene to take the guesswork out of it.


----------



## horsehug (Sep 21, 2010)

Thanks so much, Tony, for giving your input! You know I have admired and respected your breeding program for my 22 years in minis! In my opinion You have come closer to breeding tinier and tinier VERY correct and beautiful little horses on a large scale than anyone else.

You certainly have more experience in your lifetime with little horses than anyone else I have ever met and I agree with your opinion on this! I also welcome a test for dwarfism and have been waiting for it so that I CAN test my minis to avoid ever again breeding a carrier to a carrier.

Susan O.


----------



## JWC sr. (Sep 22, 2010)

Tony,

You and I have known each other for a long time and like you we are very passionate about our horses. But on this subject we differ on what is best for the breed as it is, the heartbreak of a dwarf and all the trappings that go with it is pretty driving force for me when it comes to breeding stock.

Heck I have culled some pretty great horses in the past for a lot less reason and will again in the future I am sure.

I can agree though that I will be glad when the final test is added to the batter of genome's that are needed to have a conclusive test for all the different types of dwarfism. It will take a lot of guess work out of the part of the industry and both of us enjoy the most. Breeding beautiful and sound horses.

Vaya Con Dios my friend,


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Sep 22, 2010)

Tony, I understand what you are trying to say but your argument is flawed.

If we had chosen to eradicate all the defective horses, right back at the beginning, we would not have the problems we have now _and we would never have known what we might have had_therefore it would never have bothered us!

I have heard this "but what if Buckeroo had been gelded" argument before....so what if he had?

It would not matter to us, now, as we would never have known what he could have done.

Eradicating all those potential mine fields of horses, right back at the beginning, would only , ever, have been a good thing, as far as I am concerned.

The whole thing would have found it's own, different, level, and I am pretty sure we would still be exactly where we are today with one significant difference.

We would not have the problem with dwarfism we have now.

One strike and out, as far as I am concerned, it is working for the Friesans and it would work for us.

I also think that once a test is available it should be mandatory for all breeding animals.


----------



## ohmt (Sep 22, 2010)

> I also think that once a test is available it should be mandatory for all breeding animals.


I very much agree! I think a horse should be tested before it's registered though and then the result should be put onto the registration papers. That way there won't be any testing done AFTER a horse has been bred (like with having a horse DNA'd. Sometimes I forget to have it done until I go to register the foal).


----------



## targetsmom (Sep 22, 2010)

I will probably be in the minority on this one, but I don't think the testing should be mandatory. Why not, you ask? Why make someone test an animal that they KNOW is a carrier because it already produced a dwarf? So my suggestion is that the "default" would be that the horse IS a carrier, and if you want the papers to show that he/she is NOT a carrier, then you submit the results of the dwarf test (with the DNA) to prove it.

Once the test for the dwarf gene is available any requirements by the registries will need to be carefully thought out and phased in but I think this should be considered.


----------



## tagalong (Sep 23, 2010)

> No, I say cull the ones that are KNOWN carriers.


And in the meantime, the stallion in the next pen is also a carrier.... _but the percentages have always worked his way and a dwarf has yet to show up._ And may never show up. So the carrier is still there - and you do not know it. And yet he will be bred to a mare that may also be a carrier, and you roll the dice and take your chances. And yet said breeder will proudly say they know they will never have a dwarf on their place. _Only, you do not know. _

I agree with those who say that more than half of all the minis out there - maybe even 60% - are likely carriers. If you simply culled all of them, you would be left with a very deficient gene pool. I would like there to be a test by which ALL carriers can be IDed - and then with careful and responsible breeding, the dwarf gene could slowly be eradicated while good qualities of stellar horses are maintained. Otherwise, it may be throwing the baby out with the bathwater or cutting off your nose to spite your face. I think the whole process needs to be handled carefully and responsibly. Careful, selective breeding would have a far better outcome and maintain desireable characteristics while eliminating the dwarf genetics. And we do not know how complicated those genetics may be. Meh - I am probably not explaining my thought/concerns very well...

JMO - which ain't worth a hill of beans. And as sweet and funny as Cowboy, the resident dwarf here is (sire is now a driving gelding and dam is a pet), in the future we may be able to ensure that there are no more Cowboys out there. _We need testing... ASAP. _ But there may also be genetic combinations that any one test would not reveal...



...IMHO it is not as simple and cut & dried as many seem to think it is....


----------



## Reignmaker Miniatures (Sep 23, 2010)

I haven't read all the posts on this thread so maybe this has already been mentioned but I'm wondering if having a test is going to prove to be a problem in itself. With there being some people out there who think dwarfs are "sooo cute" it is always possible (even probable) that this will set some one up as a dwarf breeder. Now they would know positively which horses would produce a dwarf foal and breed intentionally for that result charging a large sum of money because the breeding of them is likely to increase vet costs. Don't think this is likely? Check out the dog world where an average bulldog puppy will run between $1500 and $2500 partly because the dams must have a cesarean delivery. I'm not picking on Bulldogs here, there are other breeds with genetic faults that need vet care too that we as the ones in control of their destiny have been responsible for creating and perpetuating. JM thoughts on the subject.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Sep 23, 2010)

targetsmom said:


> I will probably be in the minority on this one, but I don't think the testing should be mandatory. Why not, you ask? Why make someone test an animal that they KNOW is a carrier because it already produced a dwarf? So my suggestion is that the "default" would be that the horse IS a carrier, and if you want the papers to show that he/she is NOT a carrier, then you submit the results of the dwarf test (with the DNA) to prove it.
> 
> Once the test for the dwarf gene is available any requirements by the registries will need to be carefully thought out and phased in but I think this should be considered.


I really meant that horses should be tested before registration, and before any foals are registered to it. That way the result would be on the papers. I

am not suggesting, at this point that anything except out and out dwarfs should be denied registration, but the results should be there for all to see, so if your animal also is a carrier, you know not to breed to the carrier stallion.

This would be, I feel, a diplomatic first step.


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Sep 23, 2010)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> Yes Matt, that may well be the result. Are you saying that would be a bad thing? If what you are culling is the most undesirable trait in the history of our breed, is that bad?


I have to agree while it would hurt in the short run I think it would be one of the best things in the long run.


----------



## Raine Ranch Minis (Nov 28, 2010)

PM me the link please


----------



## mydaddysjag (Nov 28, 2010)

Could someone PM me a link?


----------



## Sue_C. (Nov 28, 2010)

> I can tell you positively, had the idea of eliminating every dwarf producer from the registry been the rule from the beginning, our history and especially our World Champions would be a very different group of horses because many of our very top of the line horses would have been relegated to gelding or non breeding status. I personally think that would have been a shame.


As far as I am concerned, a Grand Champion which has produced ONE dwarf foal, is NOT a desirable breeding horse...period. I wouldn't continue to breed a horse which I KNEW carried flawed genes...no matter what ones they were.

What is the difference in continuing to breed Mr beautiful-to-look-at-Grand Champion dwarf gene carrier, and some knock-kneed, stifle-sticking, jug-headed conformational disaster...that is NOT a dwarf carrier?? IMO...NOTHING...


----------



## uwharrie (Nov 29, 2010)

Do we know that it is just one gene responsible for dwarfism? and if so how it is inherited? Coming from the perspective of being a long time dog breeder I can tell you if the miniature horse world is lucky enough that it is a single gene and that gene is recessive, throwing the baby out with the bath water is not a good option long term. ( just ask Basengi breeders when they culled all the Falconi carriers)

If it is a simple recessive and IF there is a test the smart thing to do would be test everything and only breed carriers to clear, within a couple of generations you should be able to reduce the number of carriers by only breeding the clear ofspring down the line.

For the most part the Quarter Horse folks have done that with HYPP.

It takes a huge amount of money to develop a test for specific gene as they must first find the gene responsible. In my own Breed (Italian Greyhounds) we have been looking for the PRA gene for almost 20 yrs and they still do not have an answer that will lead to a test. In Dobes they have developed a test for VwD but still no test for Cardio ( though they are close). Breeders and the industry have to be willing to not only fork out the funds for research but to provide honest samples and data to researchers.


----------



## targetsmom (Nov 29, 2010)

John Eberth has done a lot of research in this area: see the Dwarfism Forum from 2007 where he answered LB forum members questions.

Although there at least 4 types of dwarfism, it appears that a recessive gene is responsible. Otherwise at least one parent of all dwarfs would be a dwarf, and that is clearly not the case. I definitely agree with your analogy of throwing the baby out with the bathwater - not the solution I would recommend either. A test (or more than one) should be available soon, and in my mind that will be a huge benefit. To me, the best comparison would be to lethal white overo (LWO), which is also inherited as a simple recessive. Lethal white foals can be totally avoided (read "dwarfs") by testing the mare and stallion and never breeding carriers together. Yes, you will still have the gene in the population, but if in its recessive state it has no adverse effects, what is the issue? In the case of LWO, the gene is responsible for the very popular frame overo coat pattern. In the case of dwarfism there don't seem to be any adverse effects either, since an estimated 25-40% of all minis are carriers.


----------



## uwharrie (Nov 29, 2010)

Not all genetic ( in fact MOST are not) simply due to a recessive or dominate single gene. MANY are due to a combination of _multiple_ genes. Carries still may never show signs. Also some recessive genes still show signs of being there even if the animal only gets one copy of that gene (think the LWO)

If the gene (or genes) responsible for dwarfism are indeed simple recessive than the miniature industry is lucky as it is much easier to isolate and develop a test.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Nov 29, 2010)

I have come to the conclusion that there is a lot more going on in dwarfism than meets the eye. It is _not_ a simple recessive. It may be a partial recessive, but, until we have a test for ALL types there is no way of telling. Hence most peoples belief (and mine too) that_ neither_ animal should be bred from again. If we had a test, well, it would help, but it is still not that simple.

What about the animals we see who are only partially affected? What about the animals dubbed "minimal" dwarfs, that have some dwarf characteristics? What about the one we call "dwarfy"? With a simple recessive the animal either is or it isn't so you get an animal that is LWO or it is not LWO not halfway (and the characteristics cannot be compared, body pattern is a completely different ball game to actual physical characteristics) So, it becomes obvious that what we are often dealing with is an animal that has more than one type of dwarfism. This would account for people confusion when faced with an obvious dwarf that has only one sort, and is therefore not nearly as "chronic" as a lot of cases we see.

I am pretty sure that the test that is on the horizon (and has been for some time) will only be for one sort of Dwarfism, and, thus, although I am in no way denigrating the effort and importance of it, will not really be much more use than the Sab1 test.

Unless the breeders of dwarfs step up to the plate and do the responsible thing in the face of lack of testing, ie not breed the animals anymore, the problem is just going to go on manifesting itself. It is like haemophillia, you are constantly playing russian roulette with genetics, and, all the time, you are passing on the gene, hidden form view, to suddenly appear a few generations on. Just because it cannot be traced back to you does not mean you are not responsible!


----------

