# Just got The Journal in the mail



## Sandy B (Oct 18, 2011)

I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies.


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## MindyLee (Oct 18, 2011)

I agree! The hoofs look stupid on such beautiful horses.

Im a mini equine farrier and to me, the hoofs are unbalanced with that type of angles.

*ONLY Just my opinion.*


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## Minimor (Oct 18, 2011)

I don't have my Journal yet & haven't seen it on-line, so haven't seen the photos you're referring to, but I rather expect those "broken tails" are actually false tails. No harm in those.

The shoes--well, it's my view that many of the Modern ponies are way over-weighted. I don't see anything impressive about a pony that is jerking its feet up off the ground but that is the way some of them move. Not the ponies' fault--they have to move that way to get those heavy feet off the ground!

Be warned, there are those who believe that Miniatures should be allowed to show with shoes. I expect at some point in time that will come up in a rule change proposal.


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## REO (Oct 18, 2011)

A big part of the problem is JUDGES place them first. Way back when, shaving minis muzzles down to the skin wasn't done. Someone did it & won then everyone else started doing it. The JUDGES dictate the trends. People will do whatever (IMO stupid) trend that it takes to win.


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## txminipinto (Oct 18, 2011)

Actually, its not AMHR, but ASPC (which started AMHR). The tails are false, and yes, some are gingered as its still legal. Shoes....let me tell you about those shoes. There's a lot of work into a pair of modern shoes. They just don't slap some heavy pieces of iron on their soles and call it good. Angles, degrees, pads, and weight all go into consideration to get the perfect fit.

When it comes to the moderns, it has nothing to do with the judges. These are not "fads". You're looking at decades of tradition in showing these ponies. They take a considerable amount of work.

That said, you don't have to show them shod if you don't want to and if you don't want to put that much work into a pony, there are always the classics and foundations that are handled very much like the miniatures.


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## drivinghoss (Oct 18, 2011)

Shoeing of any breed of horse is an art-form. The ponies that are shod have the best care of any horse and every trainer that is having horses shod is doing what he or she thinks is best for the horse.

All the horses at Congress that wore shoes were in compliance with the rules of the association.

As far as shoeing Minis, many of the minis need shoes because owners drive them on less than ideal surfaces. Besides the arena at AMHR nationals is harder than concrete, many minis are limping by the end of their class.

So why not shoe Minis to save them from the pain of hard surfaces, as long as the horse is not over 38" that would be fine.

Just an opinon,


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## Sandy B (Oct 18, 2011)

I have no doubt that some minis BOTH under and over need shoes for physical well being. That is not the issue here! Its the extreme built up weighted shoeing. I have no doubt that the farriers do a good job on building these shoes for these "modern" classes. I can tell you that having that weight on their hooves is NOT healthy for the pony. Tradition, fads, "been doing it forever", etc...., does not mean its ok. It is extremely artificial. There is nothing prettier than seeing a pony or horse that has been bred to move, rock back and use those hocks and picks those knees up. It is gorgeous! But when you see those humongous weighted shoes on them to exaggerate it, it is just wrong on all levels.

It is the judges and owners faults for allowing this to continue. It is ridiculous the extremes that people will go to just to win a title or ribbon. I am not blind to helping a horse succeed with their God given ability in the performance ring. This weighted shoeing however, is wrong on many levels.


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## heartkranch (Oct 18, 2011)

You have pics? I don't get the journal..


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## Riverrose28 (Oct 18, 2011)

heartkranch said:


> You have pics? I don't get the journal..


You can view the magizine on line.


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## Sharron (Oct 18, 2011)

Trying to explain the why's and wherefore's to some one that already has the mind set that it is cruel and unusual punishment for these ponies to carry "heavy" shoes, is like beating a dead horse! No amount of explanation, will convience some people that these ponies have to be CONFORMED correctly and have the NATURAL ABILITY to carry these shoes. And I can tell you that just because those shoes look heavy to you, they in essence most likely, don't weigh much more than a "keg" shoe. What you are seeing is a hoof that has been allowed to grow out to ENHANCE the NATURAL ABILITY of the pony to move in such a manner. If the pony doesn't have the natural ability to move big, than NO AMOUNT OF WEIGHT OF A SHOE, will produce the action. In most cases, and I can attest to the fact, When these ponies are trotting on the rail, you can barely hear their footfalls. But then as I said before trying to change someones mindset, is like beating a dead horse...nuf said!


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 18, 2011)

Trend? TREND?

Pardon me while I wipe up the soda I just spit all over my computer screen. For anyone who might be new and who has had no experience w/ Shetlands, perhaps you will find the following helpful....

This shoeing? This is NOTHING compared to how Shetlands were shod back 60 years ago. Then, ALL the feet were extremely, extremely long and ALL the shoes were extremely, extremely heavy. Today, stock has progressed greatly. You will see many Moderns who don't carry feet of that length or shoes of that weight as they simply don't need it. Each owner ..the ones who invest heavily of their own time, energy, resources ... makes the decisions that work best for them. There are many options ... you can find a pony that doesn't need the shoeing to move ... or , you can engage in the Modern Pleasure division where the emphasis on motion is far, far less.

MODERN Shetlands are an entirely different athlete than Miniature Horses. The folks involved ... well many of them have been in the business longer than the Miniature Horse breed has officially existed.

And, as Sharron pointed out, these animals are the product of a much longer breeding arc than Minaitures. The way these ponies are built and trained and cared for allows them to wear the shoes. Sharron is also accurate that the majority of the shoes are probably no where nearly as heavy as you might assume they are from the pics.

When I look through this issue, I see many, many *FEWER* overshod ponies than when I look at the Congress coverage throughout the 50s ... which I have been doing a great deal lately for work for ASPC's Historical Committee.

Tails? Really ... not sure what anyone is referring to. In taking a quick glance through the issue in question, I saw exactly TWO ponies that had obviously been wearing a tail set. TWO. Of course, that is based on 30 years experience of dealing nearly exclusively with ponies such as this. I tell you ... there is way, way, way, way, way, way less non-fake, non-humane tails that there used to be. Everything else is that appears up is actually a false tail. Or it's a pony carrying a tail up naturally. Some of those MAY be due to ginger, but don't bet that is what you are seeing. TRUE show ponies will flag their tail just to show off ... THAT is what they were bred to do. AFTERALL, today's Moderns are the ultimate result of the association that began 123 years ... this is where many breeders in the late 1800s pointed the breed all that time ago ... when the started the ASPC, Inc., ... 83 years before the ASPC started the first miniature horse registry.

The ASPC Modern halter division moved to the use of false tails w/ a humane tail brace nearly 20 years ago ... few want to mess with nicking tails & the hassle of a tail set. Everyone involved wanted something more humane. Everyone jumped on the chance to do something that looked the same but took way, way, way, way less work while being more comfortable for the anials. Unfortunately, the appropriate use of the tail braces on halter ponies is a true art form ... and they end up looking silly when done wrong. However, done wrong they are still much easier & offer no negative impact on the ponies ... they look silly when done wrong but they don't hurt the pony.

And ... if you think the tails are "up" in the high crupper on the harness ponies ... then I invite you to actually visit a pony show. Tails are usually through the lower portion of the crupper ... effectively making them JUST the same as the crupper on a ... gasp ... Miniature Horse harness. The illusion of the "up" tail is then created above the top of the tail by attaching a pop can to the high crupper and putting the cap of the false tail over than. So .... again ... no harsh treatment of the ponies there either.

You have an opinion. You are welcome to it. After all, this in the USA and you have freedom of speech. Therefore, when I come on this forum next time ... and spread my opinion about some facet of the Miniature Horse business that I don't like, then I'm sure you'll be the first to grant me the right to speak.

If you are not interested in this type of pony ... or don't care for what is involved with it ... then I fully recommend you simply don't become a part of it.

For those of you truly interested in society ponies ... those traditions ... that phenomenal portion of the show pony world, you might want to check out pony sites such as www.societypony.com. Let's leave the MINIATURE HORSE forum on this Miniature Horse website devoted to Miniatures.


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## Minimor (Oct 18, 2011)

> As far as shoeing Minis, many of the minis need shoes because owners drive them on less than ideal surfaces. Besides the arena at AMHR nationals is harder than concrete, many minis are limping by the end of their class.So why not shoe Minis to save them from the pain of hard surfaces, as long as the horse is not over 38" that would be fine.


No, this topic isn’t about Miniatures being shod up—but in a way it is related to Miniatures anyway.

Shoes for minis—if you think that shoes for Minis to protect the feet of driving horses in the show ring are a good idea, please put a little more thought into it. As soon as you open the door to allow Minis to be shod for showing, you open the door to having them shod up just like the Modern ponies. Why? Because there is no way to enforce weight limits for shoes. The Modern and Modern Pleasure rules have no specification for a maximum shoe weight. For that matter, neither do the Classic pony rules, but people generally do not shoe their Classics with heavy shoes because it is not traditional for Classics to be shod that way. If the rules were changed to allow Minis to wear shoes in the show ring, I would bet that there would be no weight limit specified for them. Why? Because it’s extremely difficult to enforce. Yes, you can specify a weight limit for shoes, but then you have to enforce that rule. In order to enforce this rule, every sanctioned show must have a farrier with a certified scale. That farrier must be on the show grounds for the duration of the show; in case there is a protest the farrier must be immediately available to pull the shoe and weigh it—the show cannot be held up while a farrier is called in. This would result in the shows having to pay a farrier to be on the grounds the entire time the show is going on, and obviously this would place a financial hardship on at least some of the shows. I can just imagine the complaining we would hear if people were able to start putting weighted shoes on their Miniatures! Look at the grumbling about the Western/Country/Pleasure driving classes now, with people saying that horses are being shown in the wrong divisions. Imagine what those divisions would look like if some people could start shoeing up their horses to enhance movement! Still think shoes would be a good thing for the Mini show ring?


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## disneyhorse (Oct 18, 2011)

I think you have gotten some excellent replies from Sharron and Ahrobertspony, both of whom are exhibitors who have shown these very ponies we are talking about.

I used to have a MUCH more negative mindset about "ponies with action"... I assumed it was ALL pretty much man-made and therefore it MUST negatively affect the horse. However, after carefully getting to know these ponies up close and personal, and raising them from foals, I have discovered there is MUCH more inbred talent than I ever imagined.






The above pony is pictured at two years old, had him since three months old. At the time of this photo, he had never had shoes on his hinds, and just had KEG SHOES (the exact same ones you would put on any saddle horse) on his front feet. No pads, no long bars. NO long foot as I hope you can see.

I had NEVER worked this pony in bungees, he has NEVER had the SLIGHTEST bit of any irritant like ginger under his tail.

And yet, when asked to trot in hand (with my husband, who does not show horses!!!) down the street in front of the barn, THIS is how the pony liked to trot. He was BRED to pick up his feet and flag his tail! WHERE is the abuse here?

So... until you get intimate with what actually goes on, you just sound very ignorant to those who are. I was there once. Open your mind, check it out, and then make up your mind.

I will agree that it is FAR more expensive to nick tails and keep them in tail sets, and pay hundreds of dollars on sets of shoes... than to buckle a fake tail on top and put simpler shoes on... obviously most exhibitors agree because THAT is the trend that is happening, NOT the other way around!

Andrea


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## muffntuf (Oct 18, 2011)

I am not surprised at your reaction to what you saw in the Journal. I show in the Classic, Modern Pleasure and ASPR divisions. I have showed with and without shoes on all three divisions. It is as many have already said - the unique breeding of the past 123 years that have brought us to this point in the Modern and ASPR divisions performance.

During the past 5 years I have shod and shown clean, depended upon the pony. But only once have I shod past a keg shoe, and the shoes came off after a bit of lounging as it took away from the pony's performance. It did not enhance it.

It is an art and it takes much consideration and thought to get the right angles, right length of foot, and especially the balance of all four feet when shod to allow the pony to perform at peak.

And it takes a long time to get a Modern, Modern Pleasure or ASPR to its full potential, many years go into their career.

Hopefully you can take in the ASPC part of a show and watch them, ask questions. If you get a chance, you should see their liberty classes - yes Modern Pleasure, Moderns and ASPR have liberty classes- in these you can truly see the athleticism, charisma and true talent. It will open your eyes!


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

I have re-read all my posts and can not find where I knock the way these ponies move? I am all for breeding natural ability and movement. As Blackdraft's pictures shows a lovely 2 year old in regular keg shoes with incredible front and rear action. That is AWESOME! I do not have issues with a pony being shod if needed with a regular keg shoes or a normal pad due to hoof problems or soundness issues. I am all too familiar with built up shoes and the art of allowing the hoof to grow longer as I was in the Morgan horse breed for many years and witnessed a lot. Oh and yes bustles and ginger, firecrackers, smoke, surgical tubing/bungees, chains and weights. I guarantee you those built up shoes on those ponies weigh more than a regular keg shoe. My farrier (who is incredible) does shoe a few Saddle Seat Horses and used to shoe a few other Park Morgans. We have talked in depth about this and I am aware of the limits pushed to enhance the "natural" ability.

You all have gotten so way off topic in defending your Shetlands ponies that I wonder if all Shetland exhibitors and breeders are like you guys. It has put a sour taste in my mouth. You have taken my words and twisted them to what you want to hear. SO I am going to say again- First of all I am not talking about Shetlands back in the 50's, I am talking about the couple pictures (one in particular) in the current issue of the Journal (in regards to shoes). Second, I never said that a pony that is trotting with action and flagging its tail is abusive. I never said I have problems with "false" tails, I do have a problem with ginger.

So you guys can all call me ignorant, and sling the insults at my supposed lack of knowledge and I will just grin and shake my head. I would like to see you walk around in wedge heels 24/7 and then run around several minutes a day and then have someone put some ginger up your buns and run around some more in those wedge heels. Check back with me in a couple years and we will see how you are physically holding up.

One last thing- The one thing I have alway admired about all pony breeds and our wonderful miniatures, is that they have good tough feet and rarely need shoes. It is one of the advantages of pony breeds.


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## Crabtree Farm (Oct 19, 2011)

MindyLee said:


> I agree! The hoofs look stupid on such beautiful horses.
> 
> Im a mini equine farrier and to me, the hoofs are unbalanced with that type of angles.
> 
> *ONLY Just my opinion.*



Really, for someone who can not use proper English, you expect someone to believe that you are qualified to make that opinion. Hoofs . . . that really shows how intelligent you are for making comments on something you know nothing about. And pray tell where did you get your certification to allow yourself to title yourself as a "mini equine farrier"?


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## Crabtree Farm (Oct 19, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> I have no doubt that some minis BOTH under and over need shoes for physical well being. That is not the issue here! Its the extreme built up weighted shoeing. I have no doubt that the farriers do a good job on building these shoes for these "modern" classes. I can tell you that having that weight on their hooves is NOT healthy for the pony. Tradition, fads, "been doing it forever", etc...., does not mean its ok. It is extremely artificial. There is nothing prettier than seeing a pony or horse that has been bred to move, rock back and use those hocks and picks those knees up. It is gorgeous! But when you see those humongous weighted shoes on them to exaggerate it, it is just wrong on all levels.
> 
> It is the judges and owners faults for allowing this to continue. It is ridiculous the extremes that people will go to just to win a title or ribbon. I am not blind to helping a horse succeed with their God given ability in the performance ring. This weighted shoeing however, is wrong on many levels.



Sandy, I am simply curious to know what you believe are the weights involved with these "heavy" shoes?


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## Reble (Oct 19, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


>


Nice moving horse.

How tall would this one be?


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## cretahillsgal (Oct 19, 2011)

I think I know which couple of pictures in the Journal you are refering to Sandy. And I agree with you that I think that letting their feet grow that long is abusive. A little length would be normal, not double the length that they should be. Imagine going to someones farm and seeing any other breed of horse with feet like that. We would be likely to call the humane society for neglect. I don't care if it is a shetland, hackney, quarter horse or thoroughbred. The anatomy of the hoof is the same for all the breeds. I think letting them grow the way some of them do, has to put strain on their legs and joints that will cause pain or problems later on in life.

I don't know anything about the shoes that are used on the shetlands so I won't comment on those.


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## Crabtree Farm (Oct 19, 2011)

cretahillsgal said:


> I think I know which couple of pictures in the Journal you are refering to Sandy. And I agree with you that I think that letting their feet grow that long is abusive. A little length would be normal, not double the length that they should be. Imagine going to someones farm and seeing any other breed of horse with feet like that. We would be likely to call the humane society for neglect. I don't care if it is a shetland, hackney, quarter horse or thoroughbred. The anatomy of the hoof is the same for all the breeds. I think letting them grow the way some of them do, has to put strain on their legs and joints that will cause pain or problems later on in life.
> 
> I don't know anything about the shoes that are used on the shetlands so I won't comment on those.



But would it not be called abusive to have people cut their miniatures hooves down till they bleed or have no heel left, just so they can be measured in? But you also have to realize you can not condem everyone as for the likes or preferences of a few.


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## cretahillsgal (Oct 19, 2011)

Crabtree Farm said:


> But would it not be called abusive to have people cut their miniatures hooves down till they bleed or have no heel left, just so they can be measured in? But you also have to realize you can not condem everyone as for the likes or preferences of a few.


I never said that. Yes I believe that to be abusive too.

AND I never said anything about shetland breeders as a whole. I do believe that a majority of shetland/show pony breeders do whats right and keep their horses feet at a comfortable lenth/angle. I am only talking about a select few that really look awful in the Journal.


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## tagalong (Oct 19, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> You all have gotten so way off topic in defending your Shetlands ponies that I wonder if all Shetland exhibitors and breeders are like you guys. It has put a sour taste in my mouth. You have taken my words and twisted them to what you want to hear.


How in earth was it off topic when this thread was about the shoeing/feet on specific Shetlands- that YOU started with some exaggeration that the one pony's hooves were as long as his cannon bones!? They were on topic and I am not sure why you are taking their words amd twisting them to be what you want to hear. And why on earth would you then add the little dig that maybe all Shetland breeders and exhibitors are "like you guys" . That was a bit rude and completely uncalled for, IMO.



> So you guys can all call me ignorant, and sling the insults at my supposed lack of knowledge and I will just grin and shake my head.


Yet it is okay for _you_ to say that _they _are ignorant and sling insults about _their _supposed lack of knowledge - and grin about it.... ?

Hmmmm.... I am thinking that some do not realize that some driving *minis* get shod for training and then have the shoes pulled before they go to a show... the only purpose for that is to try and enhance their gait...

If I could get into my photo website (seems to be offline this morning) - I have photos there from a Shetland sale in 1949 - where tails actually were set and the feet are... interesting... on some of the ponies. Are they still like that? NO.


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## Sandee (Oct 19, 2011)

Just for comparison I'd like to post the same horse with and without shoes. Here's my Shetland/mini driven by my trainer Jason Prince first at a Shetland show with shoes and then at Nationals without shoes.








You can see that he's not quite as high without the shoes but that he is still nearly level. And this is a SMALL shetland so you can imagine the difference with a bigger one.

Here is a picture of me at Nationals. 
See the difference in the leg. I'm nowhere as good a driver as Jason. He gets the boy to sit back on his haunches and move out. Oh, and that is a fake tail for the Park Harness.


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## Cavallini Farms (Oct 19, 2011)

Sandy, I felt the same way. I can't even look at it.

As a farrier, it just kills me to think someone could do that to their horse for a $2 ribbon and some "glory". Tradition or not, its painful for the horse for their hooves to be so long. Like many horse show torture practices, I think it needs to change. I'm only referring to what I saw in the Journal, not the beauty in the pics above.

A horse either naturally has it, or it doesn't.


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## maestoso (Oct 19, 2011)

It's not the judges responsibility to place a horse lower, if the exhibitor is within rules and guidelines. Personally, I would be disgusted with a judge who placed a quality horse lower just because it was their personal opinion that the shoes were too weighted, even though the exhibitor wasn't breaking any rules.

I think the term abusive is a little harsh.... are any of you vets and/or anatomy experts and are positive that this is hurting the horse? I don't show ponies and know nothing about it, and because of that, I am not going to judge or make opinions.

As you probably know, complaining on LB won't make changes. I would recommend getting involved and try to work towards the changes that you feel are appropriate. Another option is to simply not support AMHR, if you feel that your personal values do not align with those of the organization. A third option would be to continue to hash it out here, where you will become frustrated and heated, and the ending result will be absolutely nothing.

Regardless of your action of choice, I would recommend educating yourself fully on any topic you chose to attack.


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## cretahillsgal (Oct 19, 2011)

Sandee said:


> Just for comparison I'd like to post the same horse with and without shoes. Here's my Shetland/mini driven by my trainer Jason Prince first at a Shetland show with shoes and then at Nationals without shoes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


This horse is very pretty! And I see nothing wrong at all with his hoof length, shoes, etc.


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

Instead of explaining the hows and why you shoe your ponies like that, you begin insulting. In the beginning topic, I mentioned AMHR, I did not single out Shetland ponies. It was the Shetland Pony people that jumped down my throat for having an opinion. As one other poster said, the majority of Shetland Pony exhibitors probably do shoe their ponies in normal keg shoes with no pads and weighted shoes and do show their ponies with the natural abilities God gave them. They began the personal comment slinging at me that was rude. Not me.

Where did I say that "they" were ignorant? I said I can shake "my" head and grin about it as I know better.

What is done behind closed doors I can not comment on. If people are shoeing minis and pulling them off before they show, well that is their business. The minis will lose their action that they were training with IF they really did have shoes on by the time they get to the show pen. Minis are not immune from abusive training either.

ONE MORE TIME- I am not commenting about what was going on in 1949. LOL! I am talking about what I saw in the CURRENT issue of The Journal.



tagalong said:


> How in earth was it off topic when this thread was about the shoeing/feet on specific Shetlands- that YOU started with some exaggeration that the one pony's hooves were as long as his cannon bones!? They were on topic and I am not sure why you are taking their words amd twisting them to be what you want to hear. And why on earth would you then add the little dig that maybe all Shetland breeders and exhibitors are "like you guys" . That was a bit rude and completely uncalled for, IMO.
> 
> Yet it is okay for _you_ to say that _they _are ignorant and sling insults about _their _supposed lack of knowledge - and grin about it.... ?
> 
> ...


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

In this picture I can see the shoes on him and while they are built up, they are not as excessive as some of the photos in The Journal (current issue). This same pony without shoes is simply stunning! He looks happy and more natural.



Sandee said:


> Just for comparison I'd like to post the same horse with and without shoes. Here's my Shetland/mini driven by my trainer Jason Prince first at a Shetland show with shoes and then at Nationals without shoes.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## ohmt (Oct 19, 2011)

SandyB-the way your first topic was worded was an attack. Why should they explain the how's and why's when all you did was accuse and did not ask those questions?

I didn't see anything about AMHA in the original post, but am on my phone so maybe I missed it? It was all about the over ponies and the shetlands competing in Congress. You can not blame some of the owners for coming on here and getting 'heated'.

Aside from that, I do applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in. I also can't blame someone for saying something about what they think is mistreatment of an animal. Maybe different wording and asking for an explanation first next time? Just a suggestion


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

Exactly! Again I am not referring to the Shetland Pony breed as a whole, I am talking about the few pictures that were appalling in the current issue of The Journal. Its excessive in every way. The longevity of those certain ponies will be hindered.



Cavallini Farms said:


> Sandy, I felt the same way. I can't even look at it.
> 
> As a farrier, it just kills me to think someone could do that to their horse for a $2 ribbon and some "glory". Tradition or not, its painful for the horse for their hooves to be so long. Like many horse show torture practices, I think it needs to change. I'm only referring to what I saw in the Journal, not the beauty in the pics above.
> 
> A horse either naturally has it, or it doesn't.


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

First, double the toe length of a natural hoof and then add pads and weighted shoes. It is not rocket science.



Crabtree Farm said:


> Sandy, I am simply curious to know what you believe are the weights involved with these "heavy" shoes?


Exactly!



cretahillsgal said:


> I think I know which couple of pictures in the Journal you are refering to Sandy. And I agree with you that I think that letting their feet grow that long is abusive. A little length would be normal, not double the length that they should be. Imagine going to someones farm and seeing any other breed of horse with feet like that. We would be likely to call the humane society for neglect. I don't care if it is a shetland, hackney, quarter horse or thoroughbred. The anatomy of the hoof is the same for all the breeds. I think letting them grow the way some of them do, has to put strain on their legs and joints that will cause pain or problems later on in life.
> 
> I don't know anything about the shoes that are used on the shetlands so I won't comment on those.


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

"I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies."



Here is my first post. It was MY OPINION. It was about what AMHR or Congress allowed. There were no questions asked as I did not need an explanation since I have been involved in the Morgans I know what those shoes are used for and why. Those shoes are why in the Morgan industry the Park classes are practically non existent and the pleasure classes are smaller and smaller. The arthritic results, suspensory problems and torn tendons end the careers of some incredible horses. 



Again, I am not a pansy when it comes to performance horses. I know all disciplines and breeds can and do extreme measures to enhance performance. Some are worse than others. Remember the saying- "no hoof no horse". The hoof is where it all begins, physically. If anyone disagrees, I go back to my challenge, put on some tall wedge heels and wear them 24/7 making sure to be on your feet 80% of the day, in every activity. Lets see how you feel- 1 month out, 6 months out, 1 year out, etc... 









ohmt said:


> SandyB-the way your first topic was worded was an attack. Why should they explain the how's and why's when all you did was accuse and did not ask those questions?
> 
> I didn't see anything about AMHA in the original post, but am on my phone so maybe I missed it? It was all about the over ponies and the shetlands competing in Congress. You can not blame some of the owners for coming on here and getting 'heated'.
> 
> Aside from that, I do applaud you for sticking up for what you believe in. I also can't blame someone for saying something about what they think is mistreatment of an animal. Maybe different wording and asking for an explanation first next time? Just a suggestion


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## ohmt (Oct 19, 2011)

I am not taking sides in this, but again, you can NOT get upset with those that came on and stated their opinions regarding your opinions, and you shouldn't follow up with saying they should've answered questions that you didn't ask. I hope I am shedding a little light here-i understand that we as people jump all over each other during arguments and don't play fair because it is just human nature-in the heat of the moment. This thread COULD be very informative had there not been all of the 'stating of opinions with a bit of sneering and jabbing' going on.

What I really don't like is the insuation of others being stupid. Now that is extremely uncalled for no matter how different their opinion is.

R-E-S-P-E-C-T


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

I am not upset with people stating their opinions, after all, this is a forum. I did not attack any one person, breed or call names. If they felt so wronged, they had every right to explain their side, not start attacking me and pretty much insinuating that I am stupid. A difference of opinion is what makes the world go around. I apologize to anyone who feels like I personally attacked them. I purposely did not say a name, show a edited picture or an example of a picture as I wanted to let others look for themselves at The Journal and form their own opinions.



ohmt said:


> I am not taking sides in this, but again, you can NOT get upset with those that came on and stated their opinions regarding your opinions, and you shouldn't follow up with saying they should've answered questions that you didn't ask. I hope I am shedding a little light here-i understand that we as people jump all over each other during arguments and don't play fair because it is just human nature-in the heat of the moment. This thread COULD be very informative had there not been all of the 'stating of opinions with a bit of sneering and jabbing' going on.
> 
> What I really don't like is the insuation of others being stupid. Now that is extremely uncalled for no matter how different their opinion is.
> 
> R-E-S-P-E-C-T


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## tagalong (Oct 19, 2011)

> If they felt so wronged, they had every right to explain their side, not start attacking me and pretty much insinuating that I am stupid.


But it was perfectly okay for you to say others were stupid and to sneer and condescend... ??



> What I really don't like is the insuation of others being stupid. Now that is extremely uncalled for no matter how different their opinion is.


Exactly right,* ohmt*.



> n the beginning topic, I mentioned AMHR, I did not single out Shetland ponies.


HUH? Yes you did, *Sandy B.*.... please note... your words...



> One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level.


Congress is not AMHR. You know that. You did single out the pony/ponies - and exaggerated.

Maybe, as others have said, if you voiced your concerns without sneers and sniping, then you would not get responses back that are in the same vein - and that you then take offense to. You reap what you sow... and better wording and less of an "attack" mode might have helped.


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

Tagalong-

Please quote me where I said a person was stupid. And when did I first sneer or defend myself? Was is before I was attacked or after I was attacked?

I mentioned AMHR & "over" ponies.

And you judge me. *"Congress is not AMHR. You know that. You did single out the pony/ponies - and exaggerated." *Really Tagalong? Again, I mentioned "over" and AMHR. I had no idea that Congress is not a AMHR event. I have not been "in to" minis all that long. Why would I have said AMHR would allow IF I knew Congress had nothing to do with AMHR? And it is my bad for calling "over" minis and Shetlands "ponies". They are all "ponies" to me and I know I will be spanked by the mini breeders for calling the true miniatures, ponies. I do know that there are some Shetlands that are also AMHA & AMHR, right? When I think of AMHR, i think of anything over 34", again sorry.

I was referring to the current issue of The Journal, that I believe is the official magazine of the AMHR, about a show called Congress, and a few pictures of what looks to be "small horses" or maybe a pony, that has long feet and heavily built up shoes on and several with obvious gingered behinds.

And you are saying I exaggerated. How did I exaggerate? Please explain.

And please, tell me how my *ORIGINAL* post (my opinion) was sneering and sniping?



tagalong said:


> But it was perfectly okay for you to say others were stupid and to sneer and condescend... ??
> 
> Exactly right,* ohmt*.
> 
> ...


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## tagalong (Oct 19, 2011)

I am not going to get into a back and forth with you, *Sandy*. You cannot see that you came off as a bit confrontational and sneering - and so I will leave it at that. Congress is Shetlands only, and it is obvious from those Congress photos that they are not all miniatures 38" and under. There are better ways of having a discussion.

Exaggeration = feet long as his cannon bones.

By example, I would not come onto a reining forum and start steaming and sneering about how some trainers pick at horse's heads constantly (or in some cases haul on their mouths) and spur relentlessy - nag, nag, nag - and IMO how robotic some of the horses have become. I would ask in a nonconfrontational manner why people chose to do that and what was the result they were looking for by doing that...


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## Cavallini Farms (Oct 19, 2011)

I read Sandy's post as being shocked that the hooves are so clearly overgrown, on purpose, in order to get "better movement". It is a fact, not an opinion, its painful to the horse and that is one reason they step higher. They HAVE to in order to get around those uncomfortable toes.

Imagine, if you will, that your feet were twice as long as they are right now. How would you walk? Stepping high and looking really fancy I'm sure, but you'd be hurting.

I stand right there with you Sandy B. I'm sorry you are taking a bashing for standing up for these ponies, but you don't stand alone.


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

I appreciate you informing me that Congress is Shetlands. And NO it is not obvious to me that they are not under 38". There are pictures of 30" mini's that look like a full sized Arabian. Your grasping at straws here to pick at me. I am not looking for a back and forth either. I just asked you to state where you got all your "facts" and "statements" in regards to my opinions. I am not sure what a "modern" is, maybe you could explain that too.

As far as my comment about "feet as long as his cannon bone", we must not be looking at the same picture as the one I am talking about is close to it.

This is a miniature horse forum. I am not "steaming or sneering" first off and not on a forum that is all about showing "over" miniatures or pony breeds in the classes that shoe up their animals. If you did come on to a reining horse forum I would have to agree with a lot that you are saying, about the robotic, intimidated looking reining horses out there. I highly doubt you would agree with any answer you got because most would jump on the defensive wagon right away as they know what they are doing(intimidating and being heavy handed) is wrong. I believe I mentioned that ALL BREED and DISCIPLINES can be excessive and abusive.



tagalong said:


> I am not going to get into a back and forth with you, *Sandy*. You cannot see that you came off as a bit confrontational and sneering - and so I will leave it at that. Congress is Shetlands only, and it is obvious from those Congress photos that they are not all miniatures 38" and under. Moderns are not my thing, but there are better ways of having a discussion.
> 
> Exaggeration = feet long as his cannon bones.
> 
> By example, I would not come onto a reining forum and start steaming and sneering about how some trainers pick at horse's heads constantly (or in some cases haul on their mouths) and spur relentlessy - nag, nag, nag - and IMO how robotic some of the horses have become. I would ask in a nonconfrontational manner why people chose to do that and what was the result they were looking for by doing that...


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

Thank you Cavallini Farm. I appreciate the support and know MANY others back me but are afraid to speak up or they may get blasted too.



Cavallini Farms said:


> I read Sandy's post as being shocked that the hooves are so clearly overgrown, on purpose, in order to get "better movement". It is a fact, not an opinion, its painful to the horse and that is one reason they step higher. They HAVE to in order to get around those uncomfortable toes.
> 
> Imagine, if you will, that your feet were twice as long as they are right now. How would you walk? Stepping high and looking really fancy I'm sure, but you'd be hurting.
> 
> I stand right there with you Sandy B. I'm sorry you are taking a bashing for standing up for these ponies, but you don't stand alone.


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 19, 2011)

Cavallini Farms is right, Sandy...you do not stand alone in your opinions.

May I ask...what, about letting a horse's hoof grow to lengths that resemble a piece of stovepipe, elevating the frog to so far above the ground surface that there is no way it can (properly) contact that same ground surface to act as a 'pump' for good blood circulation, as it is evolved to do, is considered a 'good idea', and demonstrably not harmful to, the horse? I'd truly like to hear, from those who have this done to their horses or ponies.

Years ago, my then(and well-regarded locally)shoer told me of being asked by an area Morgan owner/exhibitor...to all appearances a fine, upstanding younger couple(the wife's dad was a big McDonalds franchise owner in this area, and the family had 'been into' Morgans for years)...to weld some 'blobs' of metal onto the HOOF side of shoes, so that the horse would feel PAIN on the sole/white line area at EVERY step...this to 'enhance'its action. He refused to do this. One would NEVER suspect this upstanding member of the community(it was the wife)of countenancing such an inhumane act, and yet...that is EXACTLY what she was doing. This, and multiple other instances of finding out about the e--l things horses have been subjected to, by people who give EVERY appearance of being lovely folks, has made me more than a little skeptical about choruses of denial in whatever aspect of the horse industry is under discussion...Just sayin'.

Certainly, there ARE those who don't participate in these kinds of, shall I tip-toe and call'less-than-kind', activities(and in response to an earlier poster's question...a case in point...I am one, and know (sadly, only a few)others, who would NEVER, EVER, trim a horse's feet to bloodiness/no heel, in order to attempt to 'measure in'. at ANY time, ANY where....period!!!!!, because YES, I do consider THAT a cruel practice.)

When did our society's level of 'political correctness'(or as I often consider it, squeamishness about/reluctance to suggesting that ANYONE should be held responsible for ANYTHING)begin to dictate that one 'is not allowed' to express one's sense of distress, and yes, perhaps, outrage, over what one's own eyes and conscience tell one is unkind at best; and inhumane, even cruel, at worst??

Off the soapbox for now,

Margo


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## tagalong (Oct 19, 2011)

> Thank you Cavallini Farm. I appreciate the support and know MANY others back me but are afraid to speak up or they may get bloated too.


Bloated? Gas colic? Mmmkay.






It is not WHAT you necessarily said (I already said I do not care for the Moderns that much) but the way you have gone about it that got some people annoyed - and they responded in kind. I may not agree with that but I can also see why they responded that way. And when you said you did not even know it was a Shetland (look under the pic - and yes, we are looking at the same one - it says MODERN division) and did not bother to notice or investigate further beforehand, well - that is not how you go about it. Look at some of the Congress pics - and you can plainly see they are not minis. Far too big. Ditto for the one on the cover. Snapping at anyone who does not agree 100% with how you went about it also does not help.

So only your opinion is valid and anyone with a different opinion or even just expressing a concern as I did is just "grasping at straws" or pulling "facts" and "statements" out of thin air, as you suggested so dismissively - and not just sharing their thoughts.

Alrighty then. Carry on...


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## Cavallini Farms (Oct 19, 2011)

Why is this becoming a flame-fest? Sandy is concerned and upset about a legitimate problem. She (and I, and a lot of others) has every right be upset about this practice of overgrowing hooves without it becoming a fight.

I think if you want to flame her for being against it, find something factual in support of ridiculously long hooves, sore legs and backs as a result, and flame away. Ah but that won't ever happen, so lets go flame Sandy for calling attention to it. Well, people, its not a secret that their hooves are too long. Its right there in the ring, right there in the magazine. And yes its wrong in every aspect. Its painful, its cruel, and its all to make a fancy stepping pony. Ridiculous reason to torture a beautiful pony. YOU try walking and running with your own feet twice as long as nature intended. Ouch.

Every breed has problems in the show ring, this particular thread is about Shetlands. I see someone wants to flame reiners, and is it a coincidence that Sandy reins?

I say again, either a horse has it, or they don't. Faking it doesn't make anyone a believer.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Oct 19, 2011)

Ok, got my flame suit on.

I generally don't look at/read the Journal anymore, but had to have a look after seeing this thread. After doing so, I must say I totally agree with the original poster. I saw 3 horses in particular that I found so sad. And yes, to me, the length of hoof + shoe did look darn close to half the length of the canon bone. I can NOT imagine that the frog can perform its job on a hoof like those. I just don't believe it's possible. However, I also noticed none of the horses was shown by big-time trainers. Maybe that says something too.

So Sandy, I concur. Flame away folks; I can take it.


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## Shaladar (Oct 19, 2011)

Well, I agree with you too, Sandy.

Sue Cushing


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## disneyhorse (Oct 19, 2011)

I think the overall tone of the original post, as well as some blanket misconceptions, is what got "the pony people" all riled up.

It's hard not to get defensive when someone sees a picture of something and then starts making disparaging comments about all sorts of things. This applies whether someone sees a parent disciplining a child (perhaps they don't normally see the parent and child interaction the majority of the time) or meets a person outside of their normal culture for a brief period of time (they haven't met several people, just come across one and make a blanket decision about the culture from that encounter).

This, of course, happens all the time in many horse disciplines. Is JUMPING cruel to horses? After all, most horses naturally don't jump multiple objects with the extra weight of a rider on its back. Is REINING cruel to horses? After all, most horses naturally don't spend large amounts of time sliding on their hocks and spinning around extreme. Those who don't do those disciplines may see a video or photos of horses and jump to the conclusion that those disciplines are pretty cruel and will shorten the lifespan of the horse. After all, what is easier on a horse... dressage or reining? Trail riding or racing? Carriage driving or jumping? Obviously there are careers which will allow a horse to "hold up" easier, especially if it has weak conformation.

Personally, like you saw with the two year old colt I posted the photo of... I am NOT into the EXTREME forms of action enhancement. But everything has it's range. At what severity of bit becomes "too abusive"? Anything with a curb chain? Anything past the rough cheek? At what point does applying a whip become abusive? If you touch the horse at all? If it makes a welt?

I think the "ignorance" aspect comes in to play when someone sees something and knows nothing about it, yet makes sweeping generalizations about it. To say that "they look broke to stand the tail straight up as well as gingered" is a sweeping, disparaging statement. When, in fact, most of those tails are 100% fake. It's easy to LOOK at the fake wig buckled onto the crupper and assume that the tail bone itself is broken, and ginger is stuffed in there to make it stick up. Way back when... that's sort of what was done. But as time marches on, people become less tolerant of abuse and more interested in making their valuable horses comfortable and happy. A happy horse is sure going to perform and focus a lot better than one that is not!

Rather than complain, do something constructive. Look into the process for rule changes for the ASPC/AMHR. Look into how and why things are done the way they are done.

What is "excessive" weight of shoe? 6 ounces? 12 ounces? Does the size of the pony come into play with that? What is "excessive" length of foot? A one-inch heel? A three-inch heel? What if the heel is very short but the toe is grown out long? If you want to see "better rules" from the Registry, we need to know what the limits should be. But we can't arbitrarily decide on that. If you start to get familiar with the rules and history of the ASPC, you can see that even recently there has been a lot of talk about the Modern Pleasure shoeing rules which recently changed. It takes a LOT of research before you can magically change something as vague as "abuse"... We can't, as a Registry, just say "well we know it when we see it."

Good luck to you. All of us with horses, have them because we love them. No one gets into the hobby of having horses because they specifically want to harm and abuse them.

Andrea


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## valshingle (Oct 19, 2011)

Perhaps this topic would be more appropriate in the Pony Forum or Back Porch, as it seems to be directed towards Moderns, ASPCs etc.

That was my impression from the OP's first post. Since this is a miniature forum and under both AMHA and AMHR rules, miniatures can not be shown with shoes on, it is quite obvious to me that this topic belongs elsewhere. I do wish that the OP had realized this before posting in this forum.

The above is just my opinion.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Oct 19, 2011)

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, pain and discomfort is something that Vets are trained to measure.

I do believe that I have seen shoes and angles lead to pain. The situation has different causes, but the same result, lack of support. I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider.

The key is always support.

Dr Taylor


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## disneyhorse (Oct 19, 2011)

drmatthewtaylor said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, pain and discomfort is something that Vets are trained to measure.
> 
> I do believe that I have seen shoes and angles lead to pain. The situation has different causes, but the same result, lack of support. I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider.
> 
> ...


This is something to note, I suppose, thank you for the thoughtful answer.

I have seen minis with bad farriers trimming poorly and causing a whole lot more pain to the horse than an educated farrier shoeing a weighted pony foot.

Andrea


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## Cavallini Farms (Oct 19, 2011)

Support, yes, but they also need proper break over and the frog isn't able to do its job at that length.


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

I agree Dr. Taylor. Many of horses have been crippled due to improper farrier work. Balance and proper angles are of most importance.

However, your statement- *I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider." *can be interpreted several ways. Are you saying that a pony or horse that have been manipulated to grow their hoof to a long un-natural length and then shod with heavy shoes and pads suffer no consequences in the short term or long term as long as they are supported? When you say "supported" what are you referring to?



drmatthewtaylor said:


> Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. But, pain and discomfort is something that Vets are trained to measure.
> 
> I do believe that I have seen shoes and angles lead to pain. The situation has different causes, but the same result, lack of support. I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider.
> 
> ...


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## Sandy B (Oct 20, 2011)

I have to say, I went through all the posts and it is amazing how people can read a posts and put the tone to it that they want to hear. I am told that I was sneering and insulting and that I can't take others opinions. From the very beginning, I voiced my concern and my opinion about what I saw in The Journal on a few photos. I did not read the detailed info as I could not get past the photos. These photos were in The Journal, which to my knowledge is the publication of AMHR. I think AMHR, I think "over" miniatures, not Shetland ponies specifically. So I voiced my opinion and at first there were a few pleasant exchanges until the first post on page 2. Then it became an attack on my opinion and my words were twisted. I admit, I got defensive on the personal attack against me, but I still did not make it a personal attack against others. I defended myself backing it up with the knowledge that I have. Yet, know one would acknowledge what I knew about the subject, it was what I didn't know or supposedly didn't know. Then the reining horse industry got thrown in the fire just because I have been successful with reining horses. Now you tell me, is this a personal attack against me or what, just because I am extremely saddened by the photos I saw in The Journal? It goes to show that people do not like being called out on something that just may be not in the best interest of a horse (or pony or mini).

I stand by my original post. Enhancing a horse's (or pony or mini) natural God given ability within moderation or humane practices is one thing, but growing the hoof out to twice its normal length and then shoeing with a weighted shoe and pad to support that hoof and enhance action is not moderation, it is extreme.

I am glad others are showing their support and opinions as well. I have no interest in changing rules or such in the Shetland Pony association. I have no interest or time as I am already heavily in several other organizations. I give huge kudos to those Shetland Pony exhibitors, owners and breeders who show a more "natural" pony that has been bred to have movement and charisma and then exhibited in the appropriate divisions rather than artificially enhanced, over-shod pony.


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## drmatthewtaylor (Oct 20, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> I agree Dr. Taylor. Many of horses have been crippled due to improper farrier work. Balance and proper angles are of most importance.
> 
> However, your statement- *I do not believe weight of shoe or length of foot alone cause a lack of support. As the foot gets longer the shoe must get longer and wider." *can be interpreted several ways. Are you saying that a pony or horse that have been manipulated to grow their hoof to a long un-natural length and then shod with heavy shoes and pads suffer no consequences in the short term or long term as long as they are supported? When you say "supported" what are you referring to?
> 
> ...


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## kaykay (Oct 20, 2011)

> These photos were in The Journal, which to my knowledge is the publication of AMHR. I think AMHR, I think "over" miniatures, not Shetland ponies specifically.


This is confusing to a lot of people. The clubs name is officially "American Shetland Pony Club" or ASPC. The American Miniature Horse Registry (AMHR) is a division of ASPC.

This particular issues is known as the "Congress" issue which shows the results of the American Shetland Congress. The next issue will be the "Nationals" issue that will showcase the results of AMHR Nationals.

I am probably in the middle somewhere in this debate. I showed a Modern Pleasure pony for years but would never shoe her, band her etc. Because this is what I prefer and how I do it. Most of you know I am not for extreme anything and more of a natural woman. I love the way our MP pony moves so I could never see why I should shoe her up, band her etc.

The flip side of that is I do not take people to task that do shoe up their horses as long as its done responsibly. I have been to many farms that own Moderns and Modern Pleasures and they look quite happy and healthy running around the pasture.

I do think that all sides in this issue could post a little more like adults and not sling mud at each other.

This is a great opportunity to learn about why things are done, but if everyone is busy attacking each other the message is lost.

Like all divisions you will have people that push it too far. That goes whether its miniatures, moderns, classics or foundations. Someone will always push the envelope


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## BeeBopMini (Oct 20, 2011)

Beware of doing these awful things to the breed just to win a show ... Remember what happened in the Tennessee Walker breed and how the humane society shut down many of their shows. If it looks unnatural, in many cases it is crewelty to the horse!


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## txminipinto (Oct 20, 2011)

I highly recommend anyone who is really interested in the shetlands, and particularly the moderns, to visit an ASPC show and WATCH. In my years of showing ASPC, I have never seen a painful pony. Dr. Taylor is the SON of THE Dr. Taylor of the famed Michigan ponies. They are definately something to behold in and out of the ring. ahrobertspony is Amy Roberts Clark of THE Roberts Family Ponies. Another high quality farm with the winningest mare in Congress history (and she's no spring chicken either!). Both of these individuals have been around these animals LONGER than ANYONE on this forum. If anyone is expert on the tradition of shoeing a modern pony, its these two individuals.


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 20, 2011)

Thank you, Dr. Matt, for your helpful and informative posts. Thank you, Carin, for the compliment. Thank you, Kay, for pointing out the actual chain of command. The rules pertaining to Modern Shetlands in the rulebook of the American Shetland Pony Club are the OLDEST continual mandates. THIS section of the association's rulebook is the one that goes back to the origins of the registry.

My original post was targeted toward the individual who posted about the TREND. What you see is NO trend. See the history I shared. In fact, the TREND is actually just exactly the opposite. There are many, many fewer overshod ponies today than in years past because the animals have simply been bred to be more talented. Although, I am not sure that anything that happens over the course of the 40 years we've been involved can be termed a TREND.

My post also answered the poster who commented about the tails. Again, the TREND is away from nicking, tailsets, etc.

Finally, someone posted about the long-term viability of these ponies. Pull show results and compare divisions from Miniature to Modern. You will find MODERNS are the division with the largest percentage of older animals competing, especially among the performance animals. Obviously this fact flies in the face of the assumption that someone posted that

My family has done this nearly 45 years. I can't even begin to imagine how many total ponies have passed through our hands, barn and pasture. Do you know how many of those have been cripple or had long-term feet problems? EXACTLY ZERO.

We are proud to own the winning-est mare in the history of the Congress. She took her 5th Congress grand championship just this summer and her 6th national liberty title. She is 17. We've been shoeing and professionally managing this mare's feet for 17 years. If you need any proof of that ... check out the LIBERTY titles. She's never lost a shoe doing that ... so her feet can't be too negatively impacted. Of course, she doesn't carry the kind of foot referenced in the pics as she doesnt' really need it. I hope she's around many years and believe there is certainly every possibility of that because we just lost her mother at the age of 30 .... she lived healthy and happy until about 24 hours before she passed away. The pony in the best shape in the pasture? A 22 year mare who had a long, long, long career as a very, very, very successful World and Congress grand champion mare & roadster pony. She probably has the healthiest feet on the property!

MY contention is EXACTLY THE OPPOSITE of what some folks propose here: I think most of these ponies actually have better feet, better feet & leg management and better medical attention to leg and feet health than any other division. As anyone follows any performance type horse breed ... from show to racing ... you will know that leg health can dictate long-term viability. Otherwise, you don't have a pony MORE capable & fit to win at 16 (as a wet broodmare with a foal on her side) and at 17 than she was at 3 ... when she was still immature and not fully developed.

When you see Miniatures that trot, sometimes they have been subjected to banding ... and I mean overbanding. Improper & uneducated use of that tool is way more likely to cause long-term problems than overshoeing.

EVERYTHING hinges on education and proper care. While there will also be ignorant people who do the wrong thing on any given topic, you can't judge an entire group based on that. Just like you can't make assumptions about a division by a few photos in a book. Again, I looked back through the pics. I see only TWO that have the old-style up tails. I see only a small, small, small percentage of shoeing that gives me pause. Even in those cases ... as someone who has been managing feet for long-term viability ... my more likely comment would be the length of the hooves.

As another point of eduction, the legal matters related to Tennessee Walking Horses relates to soring. That has nothing to do do with shoeing, shoes, pads, etc.

Of course, it is possible that I don't know much about this as someone looking only at photos.


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## Mona (Oct 20, 2011)

BeeBopMini said:


> Beware of doing these awful things to the breed just to win a show ... Remember what happened in the Tennessee Walker breed and how the humane society shut down many of their shows. If it looks unnatural, in many cases it is crewelty to the horse!


The TWHs are still shown on heavy pads. I believe it was the "soring" that was "outlawed" (and rightfully so!) because it was inhumane, burning the horse.


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## Karen S (Oct 20, 2011)

Sandy why don't you post what pages these ponies are on so that everyone can see what you are referring to.


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## minih (Oct 20, 2011)

We do attend Congress and since we show classics and foundation have our off time during the modern pleasure, moderns and the show ponies we get to watch these beautiful horses in action. I envy the people that have them and know all the ins and outs of putting shoes on them and working them on the rail. None of them I have talked with make their decisions lightly, there are a lot of different factors on how they are treating their horses feet. I try to ask a lot of questions, who knows one day I may own one of these beauties.





And from a prior post on this thread it was mentioned that it was because a trainer was not at the lead of the horse and that could be why. I'm sorry but you have a lot of your older farms that are amateur and have been showing horses for a very long time, I do think they know quite a bit about what they are doing. I also do not think that trainers are infallible, no one is, we are all human.


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## Sandee (Oct 20, 2011)

Karen S said:


> Sandy why don't you post what pages these ponies are on so that everyone can see what you are referring to.


It won't help anyone be singled out. If you just look at the magazine you can see the ones many are referring to. I have a small Modern. Do we let the hooves get really long? NO. but I respect others right to care for their animals. I don't have to like it.

That's right people we are talking about animals. I don't personally hold them on the same level as say children. Those animals can't TELL me that they are unhappy. As long as they are fed, and their health is good, I don't think we should interfere with how people show their stock. Not too long ago people in China bound their femals child's feet to keep them small. Was it hurtful? wrong? According to OUR standards yes but in their society it was "normal". They loved their kids and wanted them to fit into their society. We shouldn't judge others just because we FEEL one way while they another.

It's fine to say "I don't like it" but don't say "We need a rule!"






Ok, that's my opnion.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Oct 20, 2011)

minih said:


> And from a prior post on this thread it was mentioned that it was because a trainer was not at the lead of the horse and that could be why. I'm sorry but you have a lot of your older farms that are amateur and have been showing horses for a very long time, I do think they know quite a bit about what they are doing. I also do not think that trainers are infallible, no one is, we are all human.



I believe this was directed at my post. I'll elaborate on what I said earlier. When I flipped through the pages of the Journal and saw the photo ads and well as the win shots, I saw NO horse with a trainer at the lead or whip that I felt had excessive hoof length. The only ones I saw, and there was only 3 I believe, that looked excessive to me (reference the half the canon bone length) were handled by non- professionals. That may mean something; it may mean nothing. Just on observation on my part. That and $1 will get you a sweet tea at McDonalds.


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## Karen S (Oct 20, 2011)

Sandee giving page numbers isn't singling anyone out. You have to remember not everyone has received their Journal (I have not) and would like to see on line what the original poster is looking at that is all. If you like you can email me privately.


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## valshingle (Oct 20, 2011)

Who's on the cover of this issue? Not sure if I have the latest issue or not. Maybe you could give us a page range - for example 'some page between 15 and 18', then we might be able to figure it out. I suppose if it's a full page ad, then giving the page number would be 'singling' them out.


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## minih (Oct 20, 2011)

Parmela, I understand better what you were trying to say now. Thank you for clarifying.


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## Sandy B (Oct 20, 2011)

Thank you for this explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.

I agree with you, there is nothing prettier than watching a pretty moving horse that is as natural as it can be. I applaud you for showing your girl natural!

When you have been out to these farms that you have visited and seen these "Modern" ponies running around in pasture, were they sporting their long toes and big shoes or were they now in the natural hoof? I know when I worked with the Morgans that it was a HUGE No No to even turn the horses out that were shod up as the chances of them throwing a shoe was high. This was the rule at all the farms.



kaykay said:


> This is confusing to a lot of people. The clubs name is officially "American Shetland Pony Club" or ASPC. The American Miniature Horse Registry (AMHR) is a division of ASPC.
> 
> This particular issues is known as the "Congress" issue which shows the results of the American Shetland Congress. The next issue will be the "Nationals" issue that will showcase the results of AMHR Nationals.
> 
> ...


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## Sandy B (Oct 20, 2011)

Dr. Taylor- You reference the heaviest shoes being a medicinal plate attached to just one foot. Exactly how is this plate used? Is it used on horses confined to stall and hand walking? Horses turned out in a pasture or is the horse performing with this one medicinal plate? As you said, I would not expect to see any short or long term affect with a medicinal plate as the horse would typically be in a natural hoof trim (or shoe) and not in this plate for any great length of time.

Thank you for your explanation of support.

Carin Ponder mentioned that your family is part of the famed Michigan Ponies. I assume your family shows these modern ponies?


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## Sandy B (Oct 20, 2011)

You make a lot of good statements:

*"When you see Miniatures that trot, sometimes they have been subjected to banding ... and I mean overbanding. Improper & uneducated use of that tool is way more likely to cause long-term problems than overshoeing.**EVERYTHING hinges on education and proper care. While there will also be ignorant people who do the wrong thing on any given topic, you can't judge an entire group based on that. Just like you can't make assumptions about a division by a few photos in a book. Again, I looked back through the pics. I see only TWO that have the old-style up tails. I see only a small, small, small percentage of shoeing that gives me pause. Even in those cases ... as someone who has been managing feet for long-term viability ... my more likely comment would be the length of the hooves." *

I agree 100%, any training tool used wrongly or in excess(the old more is better theory) is wrong on many levels!! I also agree that proper education and care is essential to any horse. I never judged an entire group in my original post. I said I could not believe what AMHR (now I know it was not AMHR) allowed to show and then win titles by viewing these few pictures that were way excessive. It left me wondering in that was the directions AMHR was headed. I was appalled by it due to my experience with the Morgan horse. I had seen first hand the issues that these long hooves and big shoes had caused on them and I was shocked that over sized minis (again, I am thinking AMHR) and or ponies were allowed to sport.

I have no doubt that these show ponies (both shown natural & in long hoof and shoes) are cared for extremely well. I never said that they were not cared for well. However, is long hooves and big shoes in the best interest of the pony?

I also want to thank everyone for their explanation on tails. I am glad these ponies are not suffering the cutting and torture that used to take place to get their tail set. I still do not condone ginger use though. I think if you are going to use it, then you should experience it yourself and see how you tolerate it.

Finally congratulations ahrobertspony on owning the winning-est mare in history of Congress! That is quite an accomplishment and I know first hand about great mares and how special they are.



ahrobertspony said:


> Thank you, Dr. Matt, for your helpful and informative posts. Thank you, Carin, for the compliment. Thank you, Kay, for pointing out the actual chain of command. The rules pertaining to Modern Shetlands in the rulebook of the American Shetland Pony Club are the OLDEST continual mandates. THIS section of the association's rulebook is the one that goes back to the origins of the registry.
> 
> My original post was targeted toward the individual who posted about the TREND. What you see is NO trend. See the history I shared. In fact, the TREND is actually just exactly the opposite. There are many, many fewer overshod ponies today than in years past because the animals have simply been bred to be more talented. Although, I am not sure that anything that happens over the course of the 40 years we've been involved can be termed a TREND.
> 
> ...


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## Sandy B (Oct 20, 2011)

As I do not want to point out any pictures, I encourage you to look at the issue yourself and form your own opinions. You can view the current issue of The Journal online. Naming names and picture pages is not the issue, but you will see several examples in the first dozen pages that I am referring to. These have extra long hooves and shod in big pads and weighted shoes. A couple in particular from hoof to bottom of shoe is the same length as the cannon bone (from top of fetlock joint to bottom of knee joint).

I will say that there are some GORGEOUS ponies in the magazine with what looks to be natural fancy movement that look barefoot or shod with a normal-ish length of hoof.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 20, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> Thank you for this explanation. I appreciate you taking the time to explain this.
> 
> I agree with you, there is nothing prettier than watching a pretty moving horse that is as natural as it can be. I applaud you for showing your girl natural!
> 
> When you have been out to these farms that you have visited and seen these "Modern" ponies running around in pasture, were they sporting their long toes and big shoes or were they now in the natural hoof? I know when I worked with the Morgans that it was a HUGE No No to even turn the horses out that were shod up as the chances of them throwing a shoe was high. This was the rule at all the farms.


Most people who have the specially-shod Moderns do not turn them out in pasture... there is some risk of having the pony rip off the shoe and foot with it, so it isn't generally in the horses' best interest to do so.

However, I know that after show season most people pull the shoes off and then let them go barefoot or just in a keg shoe... and turn them out for the winter. It is very expensive to shoe up a pony and then keep it worked in the lines or in hand.

Andrea


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## drmatthewtaylor (Oct 20, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> Dr. Taylor- You reference the heaviest shoes being a medicinal plate attached to just one foot. Exactly how is this plate used? Is it used on horses confined to stall and hand walking? Horses turned out in a pasture or is the horse performing with this one medicinal plate? As you said, I would not expect to see any short or long term affect with a medicinal plate as the horse would typically be in a natural hoof trim (or shoe) and not in this plate for any great length of time.
> 
> Thank you for your explanation of support.
> 
> Carin Ponder mentioned that your family is part of the famed Michigan Ponies. I assume your family shows these modern ponies?


Medicine plates are used to not only treat the foot, but also to protect the foot. They are frequently worn for weeks and months and although stall confinement can be included in the treatment it doesn't have to be. I have had some horses continue their exercise regimen and even had one show in it, but it was a halter QH so athleticism was his strong point.

My Grandfather, Dr Sam Taylor, started the pony farm (that I now live on) in 1945, my Father, Dr Tom Taylor has continued the farm to the present day and my sister, Abbie Smith and I will likely continue well into the future. We have had and shown, I think, every size and division of the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR except NSPR.

I will have to agree with Mrs Amy (Roberts) Clark, I do not believe I have ever had a pony that was crippled due to shoe weight or foot length. In fact, other than founder/laminitis or injury I don't recall any crippled ponies at all.

Dr Taylor


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## kaykay (Oct 20, 2011)

> When you have been out to these farms that you have visited and seen these "Modern" ponies running around in pasture, were they sporting their long toes and big shoes or were they now in the natural hoof? I know when I worked with the Morgans that it was a HUGE No No to even turn the horses out that were shod up as the chances of them throwing a shoe was high. This was the rule at all the farms.


No they were not shod. As Andrea said a lot of farms take the shoes off in the off season (but not all).

There is a huge misconception about Modern ponies from their temperment to their movement. These ponies know when to turn it on and when to be at home.


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 20, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> When I flipped through the pages of the Journal and saw the photo ads and well as the win shots, I saw NO horse with a trainer at the lead or whip that I felt had excessive hoof length. The only ones I saw, and there was only 3 I believe, that looked excessive to me (reference the half the canon bone length) were handled by non- professionals. That may mean something; it may mean nothing.



And I will respectfully disagree. I know these ponies & this division like an intimate friend. EVERY single pony that gives me pause regarding feet ... even if PICTURED in the The Journal with an AMATEUR exhibitor ... is absolutely, positively, without question under the direction & in the care of a professional trainer.


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## Jean_B (Oct 20, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> I have re-read all my posts and can not find where I knock the way these ponies move? I am all for breeding natural ability and movement. As Blackdraft's pictures shows a lovely 2 year old in regular keg shoes with incredible front and rear action. That is AWESOME! I do not have issues with a pony being shod if needed with a regular keg shoes or a normal pad due to hoof problems or soundness issues. I am all too familiar with built up shoes and the art of allowing the hoof to grow longer as I was in the Morgan horse breed for many years and witnessed a lot. Oh and yes bustles and ginger, firecrackers, smoke, surgical tubing/bungees, chains and weights. I guarantee you those built up shoes on those ponies weigh more than a regular keg shoe. My farrier (who is incredible) does shoe a few Saddle Seat Horses and used to shoe a few other Park Morgans. We have talked in depth about this and I am aware of the limits pushed to enhance the "natural" ability.
> 
> You all have gotten so way off topic in defending your Shetlands ponies that I wonder if all Shetland exhibitors and breeders are like you guys. It has put a sour taste in my mouth. You have taken my words and twisted them to what you want to hear. SO I am going to say again- First of all I am not talking about Shetlands back in the 50's, I am talking about the couple pictures (one in particular) in the current issue of the Journal (in regards to shoes). Second, I never said that a pony that is trotting with action and flagging its tail is abusive. I never said I have problems with "false" tails, I do have a problem with ginger.
> 
> ...



WHOA!!!! Who was it that said "I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies!" Just sitting here shaking my head wondering...and wondering...and wondering.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

Whoa what?



Jean_B said:


> WHOA!!!! Who was it that said "I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies!" Just sitting here shaking my head wondering...and wondering...and wondering.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

That is nice to know that some people do take the shoes off. Do they trim the hooves back to normal state too? I know the Morgans were never taken off.

Again, I can only draw on my experience from the Morgans, but I will tell you very few of the Park horses were pleasant to work with, most were at times flat out crazy. The Pleasure horses were a bot better to handle, but even then there were many crazy ones. You would get them hitched and it was stand back and heads up when it was time for them to move forward. They were rearing and leaping until they got going. It was like a barrel horse getting ready in the chute to run the pattern. It is nice to know that these ponies behave much better than that. At least they are smaller if the do carry on.



kaykay said:


> No they were not shod. As Andrea said a lot of farms take the shoes off in the off season (but not all).
> 
> There is a huge misconception about Modern ponies from their temperment to their movement. These ponies know when to turn it on and when to be at home.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

That is the beauty of most pony breeds, they are pretty hardy. I am glad to hear that so many of you have never had to deal with "crippled" ponies. What about injuries or arthritis or tearing part of the hoof off?

Usually when medicinal plates are used it is on a normal trimmed natural hoof, not one that has been grown to extreme lengths. The plates are also not left on for years and in most cases the plates are temporary. And as you said only "some" (depending on diagnosis) can continue their work load. So the medicinal plate is really not the same thing as a horse (or pony) who has excess hoof and built up shoes.



drmatthewtaylor said:


> Medicine plates are used to not only treat the foot, but also to protect the foot. They are frequently worn for weeks and months and although stall confinement can be included in the treatment it doesn't have to be. I have had some horses continue their exercise regimen and even had one show in it, but it was a halter QH so athleticism was his strong point.
> 
> My Grandfather, Dr Sam Taylor, started the pony farm (that I now live on) in 1945, my Father, Dr Tom Taylor has continued the farm to the present day and my sister, Abbie Smith and I will likely continue well into the future. We have had and shown, I think, every size and division of the ASPC/AMHR/ASPR except NSPR.
> 
> ...


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 21, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> . It was like a barrel horse getting ready in the chute to run the pattern. It is nice to know that these ponies behave much better than that. At least they are smaller if the do carry on.


I guess I am not sure why that is a bad thing? Most barrel horses ready to go love their job, most cow horses excited to go from the chute love their job, most jumpers hard to hold back at the fence love their job. Most of those driving ponies hot and ready to go once hooked love their job.

Are some of those horses in those and other disciplines abused of course but for the most part there is a clear difference in watching a horse who has been beaten to submission or cruelly treated or in pain ect working as opposed to one who is hot and excited and simply loves their job.


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## TomEHawk (Oct 21, 2011)

Ok, I've been avoiding commenting on this thread but I've just got to ask this question. What do you consider grown up hooves or extreme wieght on the shoes? I know that in the shetland ring alone that everybody has a different view of what too much wieght is. I was told once by a known trainer in the industry that a good harness pony can't trot without a shoe wieghing at least 15 ozs. Now I think that is wrong and a bit extreme but they defiantly don't think so. As for length of hoof, agian that all depends on who you speak to.


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## TomEHawk (Oct 21, 2011)

Oh, and all of my ponies get shoes pulled and hooves trimmed clean after show season & are then let out to pasture for the off season.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Oct 21, 2011)

exspony said:


> Oh, and all of my ponies get shoes pulled and hooves trimmed clean after show season & are then let out to pasture for the off season.


Jason, I don't have an answer as to what is a good weight and was is extreme as I don't show ponies and know nothing about them. My comments on this thread are based on my observations and how what I saw struck me. As I said earlier, my observation and $1 will get you a tea at McDonalds. But I did want to say, for whatever it's worth (and again, it's probably nothing) but based on the pictures in the Journal and any time I've seen your horses, I never saw anything that bothered me or I thought was extreme or in any way looked harmful to the horse. Your horses seem happy and healthy - the times I've seen them.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

There is nothing wrong with a horse loving its job. Eagerness and heart to perform is what makes a great show horse. However, I have seen barrel horses flip over in chutes, I have seen them shove or run in to the person who was leading them(rider on) to get them threw gates to go towards the arena entrance, I have seen them leap, buck and run their rider into the panels and break their riders leg on the fence. I have seen cart horses rear, rear and then flip over, strike, leap, etc... It was rare for one to behave pleasantly. This was in the upper level of National perfumers and those trainers want hot. I see that as NOT a good thing.

Now with that being said, I have no idea how the "modern" ponies act so I am not in the position to comment on that. In a previous post someone mentioned that the modern ponies were given a hard time for everything from their temperaments to movement.

If any breed of horse is bred to do something it is the Thoroughbred. They are bred to run. Most of the great runners in history were calm and well behaved in the parade and loading gates. They did not exert their energy until they broke those gates. So why is it that these horses bred to run can be under control and quiet but barrel horses and some other disciplines be out of control? I guess thats a whole different subject.








~Lisa~ said:


> I guess I am not sure why that is a bad thing? Most barrel horses ready to go love their job, most cow horses excited to go from the chute love their job, most jumpers hard to hold back at the fence love their job. Most of those driving ponies hot and ready to go once hooked love their job.
> 
> Are some of those horses in those and other disciplines abused of course but for the most part there is a clear difference in watching a horse who has been beaten to submission or cruelly treated or in pain ect working as opposed to one who is hot and excited and simply loves their job.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

I do not know the answer to that question. The only thing I can say is when you see a hoof grown out that is close to double what its natural state would be and then pads and a weighted shoe, its very extreme. When from the coronet band to the bottom of the shoe is as long as the cannon bone (from top of fetlock to bottom of knee), that is very extreme. If a person went to a ranch and saw a horse in pasture with a hoof as long as some of the hooves I saw in the magazine (minus the shoe & pad) it could be called abusive. With this being said, this was a small percent of what I saw in The Journal pictures of Congress winners. I did see a lot of pictures of what appeared to be barefoot ponies or "normal" shod ponies and some that were slightly long in hoof with a shoe but in the range I would consider acceptable. I know that there will always be a varying difference of opinion in any breed and discipline. So many people think that "more is better" and the horse suffers from these narrow minds. There is nothing wrong with enhancing the performance of a horse within reason and moderation. We as the horses keepers must learn what that is and keep the horses best interest in mind.

I also love to hear that people like you take you show ponies and pull those shoes and trim them back and turn them out. Without seeing your ponies I can bet they are happy and healthy. I love to see great show horses being allowed to be a horse too.



exspony said:


> Ok, I've been avoiding commenting on this thread but I've just got to ask this question. What do you consider grown up hooves or extreme wieght on the shoes? I know that in the shetland ring alone that everybody has a different view of what too much wieght is. I was told once by a known trainer in the industry that a good harness pony can't trot without a shoe wieghing at least 15 ozs. Now I think that is wrong and a bit extreme but they defiantly don't think so. As for length of hoof, agian that all depends on who you speak to.


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## kaykay (Oct 21, 2011)

> That is nice to know that some people do take the shoes off. Do they trim the hooves back to normal state too? I know the Morgans were never taken off.


Yes the ones I have observed were normal length hooves but remember these are ponies and they have a different conformation than a miniature horse.

I have found through the years that every breed has a bad reputation for something. This is usually due to someone having one bad experience and then blaming an entire breed.

Or someone that is not familiar with a certain breed so they buy into the "bad reputation"

How many times do people say "Arabians are crazy and stupid" Which I have not found to be true at all.

People say Miniature horses are dead heads and nothing more than a big dog. Again not true but you will never convince some people who have never owned a Miniature.

Shetland ponies are nasty tempered. Again so not true.

Modern Shetlands are crazy. Not true.

I could go on and on.


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## TomEHawk (Oct 21, 2011)

Well, for the most part our ponies are happy. There are a few that don't like being worked at all & there is a stud who isn't happy with me because he thinks he needs to be on the trailer everytime it leaves the farm, (doesn't necessarly like being put out to stud). But I agree that every horse/pony needs time to just relax. I get time off so should they. But, back to shoeing for a second. I would like to correct a statement made here a few times, it isn't the AMHR over ponies that are shod, AMHR doesn't allow shoeing except for draft drivers. ASPC ponies are what the problem is with. I do agree that some ponies have over wieghted shoes or too much hoof. But if the pony isn't crippled or unhappy, I don't think there is anything that can be done if the shoes/hoof is within the rules set down by the ASPC/ASPR. Another thing is a quick thing about pads. If the pony is shod up with a wieghted shoe and/or a "built" up hoof, then it would be cruel not ot have a pad. The pad is supposed to do exactly what the name is, it's supposed to "pad" the ponies hoof. At least that is my thoughts.


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## valshingle (Oct 21, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> I have seen cart horses rear, rear and then flip over, strike, leap, etc... It was rare for one to behave pleasantly. This was in the upper level of National perfumers and those trainers want hot. I see that as NOT a good thing.


Which cart horses are you referring to? Morgans, ASPCs, Moderns, or miniatures? I was at Nationals this year and saw one horse rear and get excited in the line up. I know because I was very close by. This particular situation was caused by the drivers sheer excitement when she got a top placing.

If you are referring to miniatures (A or B sized), then I have to take exception to your statement that "it was rare for one to behave pleasantly." I was showing an open pleasure horse and those in the division seemed very well behaved. In fact the vast majority of the driving horses that I saw were extremely well trained and well behaved.


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## mini horse mania (Oct 21, 2011)

Im not jumping into the "whats right or wrong" as I do not know anything about showing,,, but in my opinion, If my horses hooves were that long... the state would have taken mine a long time ago..they tried to take mine for a few cracks in the hooves.. Its just not natural, and that long hoof cant be good for the tendons in the legs....I have never seen that before but wow....some of those are extremely long


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## disneyhorse (Oct 21, 2011)

When it comes to making generalizations about anything... horses in particular... it's hard to make stereotypes without sounding ignorant.

With ANY breed or discipline ... jumpers, reiners, Arabians, race horses, draft horses, Shetlands, minis... obviously there are going to be crazy horses, kid-friendly horses, well-trained horses, green horses, horses mishandled, etc. It is unfair to say "All Modern Shetlands are VERY hot and crazy" or "All minis are gentle, easy to handle, and good with kids."

How you raise and train them says a lot about the horse. And it's not always a Trainer's fault... who knows how that horse was handled before the client sent them to them? Clients expect a lot for their money in a short amount of time.

Here is the same pony I posted a photo of many pages back, but a video this time. He is a three-year-old stallion in this particular video... I made it as sort of a "sales video" of the different things this pony could be capable of. Now, mind you... this pony DOES like to show off at the showgrounds and prances all over the place, and was DEFINITELY a stallion... but Modern ponies have a lot of energy and are bred to like to show. So, you have to channel that energy in a positive manner.

 
By the way, it was after show season so he's barefoot, had his shoes pulled!!! I really think the majority of pony people do this!!!

It's just not fair to judge EVERYONE on what a FEW people do. It's also not fair to judge a breed on the way a FEW horses act.

Andrea

I've seen lazy Modern Shetlands, I've seen ones that don't like to show, I've seen ones that will take the greatest care of little kids in the cart and in hand, I've seen true athletes that put on a show in the driving ring.


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## horsehug (Oct 21, 2011)

He's adorable and a real beauty, Andrea





Susan O.


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## TomEHawk (Oct 21, 2011)

> I've seen lazy Modern Shetlands, I've seen ones that don't like to show, I've seen ones that will take the greatest care of little kids in the cart and in
> 
> hand, I've seen true athletes that put on a show in the driving ring.




This is SO true! And, of course, I've had them all in my barn. The past 3 years, I've had to honor to train the best modern mare, (at least in mine, the owners & a few other's minds), that there is, RFP River Of Time., or Wy. For those who say modern shetlands are crazy really don't know shetlands. Not only is she a 5-time Congress Grand Champion, she is also a 6-time Congress liberty champion, multiple time youth champion in halter & driving and multiple time amatuer champion in halter & driving. Wy can go into the grand championship class hyped up & blowing, win the class, then come out & be handed off to a 8 year old girl for a youth class. Wy will calm down instantly and go in the ring & win for the little girl. Wy could go into a roadster class, again, hyped up and going as fast as her legs will carry her. Then switch harness, get a false tail put on, get hitched to the viceroy & show in fancy turnout with a 8 year old girl and a young boy who has never driven her before and never miss a step. Now, not shetlands are like Wy, (as a matter of fact I don't think any are), but there are a lot of calm shetlands & moderns that are still very calm.

I've attached a few pictures of this wonderful mare. The driving one is the fancy turnout picture from this year's ASPC Congress. The next is also from this year's Congress, but with my son working her down the rail in the modern youth showmanship. If you notice, she doesn't have a lot of hoof. The shoe doesn't wiegh much more than a plate, though it is a heel wieghted shoe.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 21, 2011)

Wy is one of the truly amazing ones!!! Thanks for sharing her, Jason!

Andrea


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

Thank you for further explanations. Do Shetlands show at AMHR shows and then are they allowed to have shoes? Or is the shoes on allowed at ASPC shows? Unfortunately association rules are not always in the best interest of the horses. I have seen many breeds and organizations that battle over issues, its the nature of the beast.



exspony said:


> Well, for the most part our ponies are happy. There are a few that don't like being worked at all & there is a stud who isn't happy with me because he thinks he needs to be on the trailer everytime it leaves the farm, (doesn't necessarly like being put out to stud). But I agree that every horse/pony needs time to just relax. I get time off so should they. But, back to shoeing for a second. I would like to correct a statement made here a few times, it isn't the AMHR over ponies that are shod, AMHR doesn't allow shoeing except for draft drivers. ASPC ponies are what the problem is with. I do agree that some ponies have over wieghted shoes or too much hoof. But if the pony isn't crippled or unhappy, I don't think there is anything that can be done if the shoes/hoof is within the rules set down by the ASPC/ASPR. Another thing is a quick thing about pads. If the pony is shod up with a wieghted shoe and/or a "built" up hoof, then it would be cruel not ot have a pad. The pad is supposed to do exactly what the name is, it's supposed to "pad" the ponies hoof. At least that is my thoughts.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

I apologize I should have made that clearer- Both Morgans & Saddlebreds



valshingle said:


> Which cart horses are you referring to? Morgans, ASPCs, Moderns, or miniatures? I was at Nationals this year and saw one horse rear and get excited in the line up. I know because I was very close by. This particular situation was caused by the drivers sheer excitement when she got a top placing.
> 
> If you are referring to miniatures (A or B sized), then I have to take exception to your statement that "it was rare for one to behave pleasantly." I was showing an open pleasure horse and those in the division seemed very well behaved. In fact the vast majority of the driving horses that I saw were extremely well trained and well behaved.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


> When it comes to making generalizations about anything... horses in particular... it's hard to make stereotypes without sounding ignorant.
> 
> With ANY breed or discipline ... jumpers, reiners, Arabians, race horses, draft horses, Shetlands, minis... obviously there are going to be crazy horses, kid-friendly horses, well-trained horses, green horses, horses mishandled, etc. It is unfair to say "All Modern Shetlands are VERY hot and crazy" or "All minis are gentle, easy to handle, and good with kids."
> 
> ...



Gorgeous boy! I am not judging the breed (again I thought it was AMHR in the beginning) of Shetlands as a whole. Again it is strictly the handful of photos that I saw in the current issue of The Journal that shocked me and made me sad. I have not been around Shetland Ponies to be able to judge their temperaments, well except for my incredible childhood pony who I did everything on for 10 years and he was part Shetland. And I agree so much of the horse's attitude and actions are how they are raised and then trained and what they are allowed to get away with.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

Wow! She is fabulous! Look at that hind end power! And I did notice she did not have much hoof and I would find that completely acceptable. That is wonderful to hear such an outstanding mare can compete in many events with different ages and abilities. She is a true show horse and I love the fact that she is a mare! Got to love those mares!! Mare power!



exspony said:


> This is SO true! And, of course, I've had them all in my barn. The past 3 years, I've had to honor to train the best modern mare, (at least in mine, the owners & a few other's minds), that there is, RFP River Of Time., or Wy. For those who say modern shetlands are crazy really don't know shetlands. Not only is she a 5-time Congress Grand Champion, she is also a 6-time Congress liberty champion, multiple time youth champion in halter & driving and multiple time amatuer champion in halter & driving. Wy can go into the grand championship class hyped up & blowing, win the class, then come out & be handed off to a 8 year old girl for a youth class. Wy will calm down instantly and go in the ring & win for the little girl. Wy could go into a roadster class, again, hyped up and going as fast as her legs will carry her. Then switch harness, get a false tail put on, get hitched to the viceroy & show in fancy turnout with a 8 year old girl and a young boy who has never driven her before and never miss a step. Now, not shetlands are like Wy, (as a matter of fact I don't think any are), but there are a lot of calm shetlands & moderns that are still very calm.
> 
> I've attached a few pictures of this wonderful mare. The driving one is the fancy turnout picture from this year's ASPC Congress. The next is also from this year's Congress, but with my son working her down the rail in the modern youth showmanship. If you notice, she doesn't have a lot of hoof. The shoe doesn't wiegh much more than a plate, though it is a heel wieghted shoe.
> 
> ...


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 22, 2011)

The American Shetland Pony Club, Inc., was formed in 1888. Over the years it has grown. It offers Shetland registration in several divisions: Modern, Modern Pleasure, Classic and Foundation. Modern are the most animated. Foundation are the most conservative and should be the most like the ponies from the halcyon days of the Shetland breed.

The ASPC started the AMHR in 1971. AMHR is the oldest miniature horse registry.

The ASPC's newest registries are the American Show Pony Registry and the NSPR.

Some rules of the association govern all divisions. However, each breed has it's own rules. The Modern Shetland rules are techincally the OLDEST of the association and tie back into all that has been created and learned in 123 years.

The ASPC, Inc., sanctions many shows offering classes for ALL divisions. It is not uncommon to see Shetlands and Minis showing at the same show any given weekend of the summer. The classes all have rules and regulations. The divisions all have rules and regulations. Stewards are employed at every show to help keep it all straight.

Only the Miniature divisions prohibit shoes. The other breeds & divisions all have varying rules.

If you are TRULY interested, then I recommend you contact the ASPC home office and obtain a current ASPC/AMHR/ASPR rulebook.

Today, thanks to the tough economy that makes for a tougher equine economy further made difficult by droughts, high fuel costs and no viable human slaughter options, the state is going to be hard pressed to get involved over shoeing. Officials can't even truly keep up with REAL neglect. The Moderns you see might have feet that YOU find to be too long, but they are still well fed ... have their feet professionally managed ... have good access to vet care, etc. I know at my house, the family does without on a lot of things simply because we have ponies and they come first.

Something else to remember ... tendons, muscles, etc., develop and change OVER TIME ...as the hoof grows, the physical structure changes to accommodate that. You don't just wake up one morning w/ a 2-3" hoof! You want to cause the pony discomfort? You want to make them sore? Immediate pulling of the shoes & reduction of the hoof of those you think are too long would do way more to make the pony uncomfortable than the slow build up to that point does.

Of course, that's just my opinion ... developed over time since my family joined the ASPC in 1968 & started attending registry shows in the early 70s with a couple of dozen annual conventions & more than 30 Congress thrown in . And, it's based on having a barn full of ponies JUST LIKE River of Time ... who is fat & sassy & rearing to go in this cool weather and looks nothing like that fancy turnout or halter pic ... which goes to show ... you can't really know absolutely everything about a situation from looking at a picture.


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## mydaddysjag (Oct 22, 2011)

I can say that Jason (exspony) DOES indeed pull shoes, has them to a normal field trim, and turns them out for the winter. I bought a horse from him a few years back, and we drove out Illinois to pick out a gelding in January. The only horses in the barn were the geldings he kept in that day for me to see, and a couple stallions that I believe got separate turnout. Everyone else was outside playing in the snow. I didn't see shoes on any of the horses I looked at, and they all had nice field trims. I looked at about 7 horses that day, weanlings through proven show horses, Both minis and shetlands, and I wouldn't have called any of them nutty.

Every breed has things some exhibitors might not agree with or like, but just because it isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean you should bash it without knowing more about it. I see you also show reiners. A lot of people feel that is very hard on their joints and causes premature arthritis. Now, Im not knocking you, because I ran barrel horses for about 7 years, but some people who aren't educated on the discipline may feel that is cruel. As far as nutty, I ran barrel horses, you know the general consensus about them being hot. My 1D mare was the safest horse I have ever ridden, You could walk her in the pen, run your pattern, walk back out, drop your reins, and she would stand until it was time to run again. Shes a horse you could trust with anyone of any age. Just because people say certain kinds or breeds of horses are nutty, doesn't necessarily mean they are.


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

mydaddysjag said:


> I can say that Jason (exspony) DOES indeed pull shoes, has them to a normal field trim, and turns them out for the winter. I bought a horse from him a few years back, and we drove out Illinois to pick out a gelding in January. The only horses in the barn were the geldings he kept in that day for me to see, and a couple stallions that I believe got separate turnout. Everyone else was outside playing in the snow. I didn't see shoes on any of the horses I looked at, and they all had nice field trims. I looked at about 7 horses that day, weanlings through proven show horses, Both minis and shetlands, and I wouldn't have called any of them nutty.
> 
> Every breed has things some exhibitors might not agree with or like, but just because it isn't your cup of tea, doesn't mean you should bash it without knowing more about it. I see you also show reiners. A lot of people feel that is very hard on their joints and causes premature arthritis. Now, Im not knocking you, because I ran barrel horses for about 7 years, but some people who aren't educated on the discipline may feel that is cruel. As far as nutty, I ran barrel horses, you know the general consensus about them being hot. My 1D mare was the safest horse I have ever ridden, You could walk her in the pen, run your pattern, walk back out, drop your reins, and she would stand until it was time to run again. Shes a horse you could trust with anyone of any age. Just because people say certain kinds or breeds of horses are nutty, doesn't necessarily mean they are.



Are you insinuating that I do not believe that Jason pulls the shoes off his ponies? And that his ponies are nutty? I am not quite sure how to read your post.

Could you please quote me where I am bashing the breed? And unfortunately yes, many reiners, cutters, barrel horses, well in fact many performance breeds and disciplines develop arthritis at early ages due to the wear and tear and the predisposed factors. I NEVER said EVERY driving horse, nor barrel racer was crazy. I NEVER said Modern Shetland Ponies were crazy. In fact in a few posts down I said that I had no experience with Shetland Ponies so I could not comment on their temperaments. There are ALWAYS exceptional individuals in every event who handle themselves calmly. I can tell you when you watch any barrel race, the majority (I did not say ALL) are prancing & leaping and some almost on the verge of possibly being out of control. I am not bashing barrel horses here either, it unfortunately is the nature of the beast.

This thread was never about the temperaments of over minis or Shetlands. It was only about the length of foot and big shoes on some of the pictures that were posted in the current issue of The Journal.


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

ahrobertspony said:


> The American Shetland Pony Club, Inc., was formed in 1888. Over the years it has grown. It offers Shetland registration in several divisions: Modern, Modern Pleasure, Classic and Foundation. Modern are the most animated. Foundation are the most conservative and should be the most like the ponies from the halcyon days of the Shetland breed.
> 
> The ASPC started the AMHR in 1971. AMHR is the oldest miniature horse registry.
> 
> ...


Thank you for the history lesson. Very interesting. You said that there several registration divisions in the Shetlands. Can one individual pony be registered in multiple divisions? Can one pony have a background that is both say Modern and Classic? If so, how do you determine what registry the pony falls under?

I agree, there is not enough man power and crew to police any changes that happened to be made anyways. People are just in survival mode right now. I NEVER said that the long hoofed ponies were not well fed or cared for in other ways. I do agree chopping a hoof off that is long and pulling of shoes can cause pain and discomfort. Thats why when horses with over-grown hooves are trimmed it has to be in stages as to not cause other issues. Hooves grow at different rates and a lot depends on the age of the horse. Tendons and ligaments are made to be a certain way.


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## mydaddysjag (Oct 22, 2011)

Not insinuating that you dont believe jason, just pointing it out to everyone. Jason and his family show a lot of moderns, and do quite well at congress. Honestly, Its just the most moderns Ive ever seen in one place. Right now I only have AMHR and AMHA horses, (hopefully some AMHR/ASPC in the future) so I dont go to the ASPC shows, and cant comment on the horses there.

Im not quite sure where this thread is going, you strongly insinuate things, then when people comment on them, you come back with "I never said that". If I were someone who had Shetlands, I would be insulted just by the title of your thread, and tone of your posts.


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## Leeana (Oct 22, 2011)

> mydaddsjagIf I were someone who had Shetlands, I would be insulted just by the title of your thread, and tone of your posts.


Just a little.... :arg!

I have tried not to reply to this as I only own one true modern pony, who happens to be a Congress Reserve Grand Champion, and she has been only a broodmare since I have owned her, but she is trimmed down short out in the field and still moves pretty wicked. I would not hesitate to have a modern or aspr pony on my show string at any point and intend to have some in the future, although my program revolves and is centered around classic ponies and foundation ponies. But it is all relevent and I follow the modern division as well as the ASPR and what is going on with the hackneys.

I personally like a show pony, that is on and wants to show and will stand up and look at you wild eyed and wicked. I guess not everyone likes that or can handle that. Oddly enough, my Congress Res. Grand Champion mare is among one of the easiest going ponies I own...I can take her out and pose her up and trot her and she will turn it on. Would you believe at the same time, my 8yr old nephew helped me wash and put her tail up last night? He also brought her out of her stall and led her while I cleaned her stall.

A lot of the people who breed and show moderns, have done it for a very long time and am sure know a lot more about the showing, fitting and caring for the breed then you do I am sure. Three of them have already posted on this thread, consider yourself lucky to have them impart such knowledge for you to take in.


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## Karen S (Oct 22, 2011)

Sandy,

I invite you to go look at my website: www.fiddlestixponyfarm.com.

I raise Foundations, Classics, a Classic who could go Modern Pleasure and I have a Show Pony.

Foundations: To show a Foundation pony, it first must meet certain criteria:, Have a Foundation Seal to prove that there isn't any "Modern" ponies in it's background for four generations (you have to look at five total). That pony CANNOT go over 42" for the show ring. A pony can carry a Foundation seal and be over the 42" and it can re-produce smaller than it is. I know mine has.

Classic: are ponies that might have some Modern blood in their pedigree. Some Classics are a step up from the Foundation pony and some Classics can be extreme but not quite a Modern Pleasure pony.

Moderns Pleasure Pony: is a Modern Pony that doesn't have as much action as a Modern, still beautiful animals to work with and show. Can be shown barefoot or with a shoe

Moderns: Which are some that you are seeing in the Journal.

Show Pony: The Show Pony division was created for those Modern ponies that went over the height limit of 46" but could not go over 48" (on my website my Show Pony Big & Rich is such a pony). He holds Modern papers but was too tall for the Modern Division. Because he held Modern papers he could also get Show Pony papers to continue his career. I had been looking at this division for a very long time. I came from the western world so was use to a bigger horse. I finally bought Big & Rich from our current president last year. I wanted a pony that a 50+ year old women could drive without getting hurt. This pony was driving in Roadster and could be turned on but I wanted a Country Pleasure driving pony. Last year I developed RH arthritis in my wrist and hands. I told this pony he has to be feathers in my hands so I can drive. He does just that. He takes care of me, but if I ask him to turn on his power he can. I call him my little red sports car. We are a team and it shows. If anyone would like to drive a Show Pony, I would not hesitate to sit anyone behind him. Like Jason said about Wy they know when to show and when to turn off.

If you don't understand the different divisions of the Shetlands, then sit down with your rulebook and read. You will need to be sure to download all of the supplements too as there are changes in those that go hand in hand with the rulebook. Yes, it can get confusing and even I have to highlight what the old rule was and make notes on the new rules.

There are shoeing rules to each division even in the Miniatures. One thing you have to remember: Shetlands that meet the height requirement of the AMHR (38" & Under) can obtain miniature papers. The main thing with a Shetland showing as a miniature, they cannot have shoes ( with the exception of the draft driving miniatures) and you have the watch the razoring rule. Miniatures can be razored and Shetlands cannot. So if you happen to own a double registered ASPC/AMHR you have to be very careful about showing. If you show that horse as a miniature and razor it and then show up at a show to show as a Shetland and not enough time has elapse for the hair to grow you will be protested.

Now, if I owned a double registered and wanted to show it as a miniature, then I wouldn't spend my money putting shoes on that horse unless I was going to take it to Congress and then it would depend on what class I would show in. All of my driving horse do get shoes. Some get shoes on the front only and some all the way around. If I had that horse qualified for the AMHR nationals as a miniature, I would have plenty of time to pull shoes from the Shetland ring, trim that horse up and show in the miniature ring. My horses are all on a 6 week farrier schedule all year long. After the holidays, I bring up those horses that will be driving, start working on getting feet in good working order and then plan when they will have a set of shoes put on. It takes a lot of time working and putting on a foot that can hold a shoe. Some horses I've had have had terrible feet that would crack and crumble. Those are ones that had little to no care back when they were younger. It may take me a year to get them where they need to be and if putting a keg shoe on to protect those feet I will. Those that have a tendacy to founder are also canidates for shoes to protect those feet. I see more feet problem with white hoof horses and then some problems with stripped hoof horses. Horses with black hooves I don't see hardly any problems. There again, each reagion of the US can dictate how good your horses feet are as well. Wet weather is the hardest on feet.

If in doubt on anything that you see in the Journal ask questions as to the in's and out's. Go to a Shetland farm close to you and visit and see for yourself. I enjoy when a new comer to the Shetland world calls me and ask to come see the ponies. They are very suprised at how our ponies act out in the pasture, everyone wants to ge loved on and they do love the attention. I don't have to chase anything down to catch and those ponies that we've sold have all gone to great homes from youth to senior's.


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## PamH (Oct 22, 2011)

I think there is also another point that a lot of people here with Moderns are not thinking of. I am a relative newbie when it comes to this rated show circuit of the ASPC/AMHR world. Over the years though I am NOT a newbie to ponies or miniatures. I cannot tell you how many miniatures and Shetlands have come through our ranch to be trained and made kid friendly, saddle broke, and safe. I have seen many turn into wonderful children's mounts and go on to make some lucky kid very happy. I currently run a small to medium herd of Ponies with just a couple of Miniatures in there....at least one Shetland Miniature size. My experience is from the big horse world and particularly working cow horses. This past year we purchased a couple of Modern Shetlands. Which by the way are registered ASPC with only one we could have double papered to ASPR. The first two had hooves that completely grew differently from each others. Our bigger Mare, who could ASPR due to size, has what I would call the closest hoof to that of my Quarter Horses of any pony we have ever had. It is a good foot with a normal shape. My second Modern, a now gelding, has the LONGEST hoof I ever had on the place. Even without shoes he grew hoof faster than the rest and very upright. I did shoe this one when he was a stallion and showed him just a bit. It wasn't a matter of hard work to grow that hoof, but a matter of management and keeping it trimmed back. This just goes to show that genetics has a lot to do with the Modern's hooves. I now own 5 total Modern Shetlands and 3 of them have hooves that are like my first geldings. I can trim them back, but within a week they seem to have a ton of hoof growth. They generally stay pretty long and grow more upright. My other two have a more normal hoof, but do grow pretty quickly.

Even though this thread is not considerably about the Mind of the pony I have to say that these Moderns are the MOST trainable Shetlands or Miniatures we have had here yet. And some of the most handler/rider protective animals. They have an incrediable sense of the age of their handler and their need to please is super refreshing. My three children really enjoy a hot mind because that means there are brains up there working!

Sorry to say Sandy, even to this poster, new as I am to this board and only a couple of years in the rated circle, you do have a tone about your posts that insinuates and insults. I am not surprised at the response you have gotten. Now you are getting a bunch of extremely knowledgeable people on here trying to explain this division and I hope you go and see these beautiful Ponies first hand. Maybe then your understanding will be different with education.


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## LaVern (Oct 22, 2011)

I thought this was the miniature forum.


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## Sandee (Oct 22, 2011)

LaVern said:


> I thought this was the miniature forum.


It is and I believe that this forum is best when it educates.

Sandy B started out as saying that she thought theses long heeled ponies were shown in AMHR. I can assure you that AMHR does NOT allow shoes. My double registered ASPR/AMHR modern is only shoed when he is shown as a Shetland in ASPR classes. What may be confusing is that some shows have classes for both minis and shetland and each is shown under the rules for that division. So if my double registered horse is at one of these "double" shows we have to choose which way he will be shown as a Shetland or as a mini. He cannot go back and forth at the SAME show. If he shows as a Shetland he can have shoes. If he shows as a mini he CANNOT. So often before the Congress show, which is what the Journal was all about this time, we show him as Shetland and after Congress we pull the shoes and go to mini shows to qualify for Nationals. For someone like me who LOVES TO SHOW he's a great as we can go to so many more shows and show different ways all in the same season.

Disneyhorse said "who knows how that horse was handled before the client sent them to them? Clients expect a lot for their money in a short amount of time."

And I just want to comment to that. She is SOooooo right. I too thought the Modern Shetland way to highly exciteable. Mine is not but the first year we had him he was very aloof, didn't like to be haltered, and I didn't think I'd ever like him. After the second year with Jason showing him, I have a whole different horse this year. He loves to be petted, he accepts the halter, and is much more confident around other horses. He always was a sweety IN halter but this second year has really brought a change in him. Jason says he didn't really "DO" anything different that "he just needed time". It's not that he was really young as he was 5 when we purchased him.

Now does he have more energy than my minis -- YES. But not Hyper nor Distructive energy. He gallops around the field once or twice before he can calm down and eat but when leading him out just a simple "WALK" calms him immediately. He will romp and buck in the stall if he has been confined for a day or two from bad weather and I believe that this "pent up" energy is what we see at shows from many Moderns that earn them the "crazy" title. In fact this boy is probably going for saddle training this spring for my grandchildren to ride.


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 22, 2011)

Yes, Renee ... you are right. This is the Miniature forum. And, a Miniature person brought this up. Therefore, this thread has expanded to overall education. There are still many who can benefit from education if they don't know the difference between the Congress and AMHR Nationals ... that this registry has many divisions, not just one ... what good society ponies are .... and how the American Shetland Pony Club, including the AMHR actually works and goes together ... as well as a reminder that the rules from a division that is 80 years younger don't apply across the board to the other divisions much, much, much older.


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## LaVern (Oct 22, 2011)

Yeah, your right. Just when I thought I had let it all go, there it pops up again. I forget that there are so many new members and all this is new to them. All one big happy family.


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## Minimor (Oct 22, 2011)

To answer the question of "what is too much weight" I would say any amount of weight that causes the horse to have to jerk the feet up off the ground--I simply don't care for that at all--and certainly whatever weight causes the horse to have labored action. That will vary from horse to horse, because some can handle more weight than others. What one person may consider excessive may be someone else's idea of 'enhancement'

I've had a couple people tell me that they've seen some very crazy acting horses at Nationals--horses they say would scare them if they had to be out in the ring with them--so it would seem that there are a few of "those kind" in AMHR too. What I have found is it isn't so much the true temperament of the horse that causes "crazy" behavior, very often it is the training (or lack of same) and handling the horse has had that causes the horse to act in a 'crazy' manner. I've got Miniatures (no ASPC breeding for generations) that would get revved up & start acting crazy if someone mishandled them. My ponies, yes certainly them too. I don't have crazy ponies but they are spirited and have lots of go and they could certainly get hotted up if someone chose to handle them that way.


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## ~Lisa~ (Oct 22, 2011)

the beauty of this registry and any other is that no one can tell you what you have to do to your mini or pony. If you are not into shoeing them and feel it is excessive or causes ugly movement you simply do not have to do it.

As far as temperament goes it is the same thing mini or pony or T/B or Arab there is not one personality every horse has no matter what the breed. Some prefer a hotter personality some do not again a horse for every person

I have a couple hot ponies I in no way feel the need to defend their personality. I have a couple of hot or "crazy" minis as well and it is just who they are has nothing to do with training. THere are plenty of well mannered well trained horses or ponies that some will choose to perceive as "crazy" I assure you they are not mistreated or abused they are happy healthy ponies who have more energy then others

I also have a couple of total dead heads and those that are inbetween the one thing you learn about horses and ponies quickly is they all have their own personalities and usually it is just a matter of finding those who mesh well with your own


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

I'm not sure where this thread is going either. It seems to now be on temperaments which was never part of the original post until someone mentioned that people assumed moderns were hyper or something along those lines. I have not said a lot of things people keep saying I have said and have asked several times for people to copy and paste what it was that I said and they have not. How can someone judge "my tone" when they do not hear my voice? I find this very fascinating!

Im not quite sure where this thread is going, you strongly insinuate things, then when people comment on them, you come back with "I never said that". If I were someone who had Shetlands, I would be insulted just by the title of your thread, and tone of your posts.


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

Can someone please tell me where I have made negative comments about Shetland Ponies temperaments? Honestly, I can not find where I posted anything about their manners or such.

I have enjoyed all the history lessons about the breed and information that people have shared. I have heard several Shetland exhibitors/owners state they have amazing snappy movers and they have regular shoes or barefoot, so why do some grow their hooves so long and pad and have heavy shoes when so many have the movement without all the help?



Leeana said:


> Just a little....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## Sandee (Oct 22, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> ...........I have enjoyed all the history lessons about the breed and information that people have shared. I have heard several Shetland exhibitors/owners state they have amazing snappy movers and they have regular shoes or barefoot, so why do some grow their hooves so long and pad and have heavy shoes when so many have the movement without all the help?


I think you know the answer. The longer hoof and the heavy shoes make them lift higher. Saddlebreds without weights or chains or bands often do not have the "natural" knee action and loose what they do have if the weights are off too long. The same with any horse asked to perform with LOTS of action. Since the length of hoof and the weight of shoe is covered in the rules of the ASPR, I'm sure those in the pictures were within the regulations. My modern breaks almost level with his knees on a lunge line but in a cart (as with any horse in harness) he isn't quite so high. Add a shoe and he lifts his knees again.

Everybody likes pretty or the "wow" factor. As long as the horse isn't hurt I see nothing wrong.


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

Karen S said:


> Sandy,
> 
> I invite you to go look at my website: www.fiddlestixponyfarm.com.
> 
> ...


Thank you so much for the detailed descriptions. I had no idea that there were so many ranges of Shetlands. You have some very beautiful ponies. I enjoyed looking at your web site.

All that back and forth showing would be a bit crazy at times. LOL! It would be a benefit though to have one registered in both AMHR & in the Shetland assoc.

I see the differences in hoof growth in all my horses both full sized and minis, but especially our minis. We have some that grow straight up with lots of heel and others that grow only toe and some that grow very fast and some that only need shaping when the farriers come. Each animal is different.


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

PamH said:


> I think there is also another point that a lot of people here with Moderns are not thinking of. I am a relative newbie when it comes to this rated show circuit of the ASPC/AMHR world. Over the years though I am NOT a newbie to ponies or miniatures. I cannot tell you how many miniatures and Shetlands have come through our ranch to be trained and made kid friendly, saddle broke, and safe. I have seen many turn into wonderful children's mounts and go on to make some lucky kid very happy. I currently run a small to medium herd of Ponies with just a couple of Miniatures in there....at least one Shetland Miniature size. My experience is from the big horse world and particularly working cow horses. This past year we purchased a couple of Modern Shetlands. Which by the way are registered ASPC with only one we could have double papered to ASPR. The first two had hooves that completely grew differently from each others. Our bigger Mare, who could ASPR due to size, has what I would call the closest hoof to that of my Quarter Horses of any pony we have ever had. It is a good foot with a normal shape. My second Modern, a now gelding, has the LONGEST hoof I ever had on the place. Even without shoes he grew hoof faster than the rest and very upright. I did shoe this one when he was a stallion and showed him just a bit. It wasn't a matter of hard work to grow that hoof, but a matter of management and keeping it trimmed back. This just goes to show that genetics has a lot to do with the Modern's hooves. I now own 5 total Modern Shetlands and 3 of them have hooves that are like my first geldings. I can trim them back, but within a week they seem to have a ton of hoof growth. They generally stay pretty long and grow more upright. My other two have a more normal hoof, but do grow pretty quickly.
> 
> Even though this thread is not considerably about the Mind of the pony I have to say that these Moderns are the MOST trainable Shetlands or Miniatures we have had here yet. And some of the most handler/rider protective animals. They have an incrediable sense of the age of their handler and their need to please is super refreshing. My three children really enjoy a hot mind because that means there are brains up there working!
> 
> Sorry to say Sandy, even to this poster, new as I am to this board and only a couple of years in the rated circle, you do have a tone about your posts that insinuates and insults. I am not surprised at the response you have gotten. Now you are getting a bunch of extremely knowledgeable people on here trying to explain this division and I hope you go and see these beautiful Ponies first hand. Maybe then your understanding will be different with education.


Once again, my "tone" is being judged and I believe to know the tone of someones voice, you have to hear it.


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## Minimor (Oct 22, 2011)

It's the tone of your posts, not the tone of your voice. One does not have to hear a voice in order to detect the "tone" of what is written!!



> I'm not sure where this thread is going either. It seems to now be on temperaments which was never part of the original post until someone mentioned that people assumed moderns were hyper or something along those lines.


Seriously? It was you yourself who turned this thread toward temperament. You opened the door with this post:



> Again, I can only draw on my experience from the Morgans, but I will tell you very few of the Park horses were pleasant to work with, most were at times flat out crazy. The Pleasure horses were a bot better to handle, but even then there were many crazy ones. You would get them hitched and it was stand back and heads up when it was time for them to move forward. They were rearing and leaping until they got going. It was like a barrel horse getting ready in the chute to run the pattern. It is nice to know that these ponies behave much better than that. At least they are smaller if the do carry on.


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## SweetOpal (Oct 22, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies.



Personally myself I find it disgusting that someone would run the heck out of a quarter horse, to only make it slam on the brakes and sit its arse down on the ground and call that a sport! That has to be wrong on so many levels!!!! I can't imagine the pain this horse suffers long term on its hind end.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 22, 2011)

SweetOpal said:


> Personally myself I find it disgusting that someone would run the heck out of a quarter horse, to only make it slam on the brakes and sit its arse down on the ground and call that a sport! That has to be wrong on so many levels!!!! I can't imagine the pain this horse suffers long term on its hind end.


Although I don't feel that strongly about it, at work some of my Quarter Horse-owning friends bring in their breed magazines. I am not surprised at the sheer number of advertisers in their magazines for joint supplements and injections. The magazines tailored for Jumpers also has a very high percentage of ads for joint pharmaceuticals, too. Those companies go where the money is... obviously there is a bigger demand in the reining and jumping markets...

Adequan is the "Official Joint Therapy" of the AQHA and the NHRA. They are also big-time sponsors for a lot of the hunter/jumper circuits.

If there was a bigger demand from these Shetland ponies, I'm sure the joint therapy companies would seek them out. Instead, we've got RaDon blankets and Farnam products. That's not a bad thing!

Andrea


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## valshingle (Oct 22, 2011)

I want to publicly applaud all the pony people who have taken the time, effort, and seemingly endless patience to reply to the questions and topics that have arisen. I have always enjoyed watching the Moderns and other Shetlands. I am happy to say that I now have 3 Shetlands (one is straight ASPC) and I am excited about the caliber of owners and trainers out there. If it didn't require a bigger cart and a specialized farrier - I would own a Modern in a heart beat!

I hope everyone appreciates the wonderful education we are receiving here about these marvelous ponies.


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

Ahhhhh, but you do not show the post that I was replying too



Very interesting how I am flamed for what others start.

Yes, this was my reply to the quote below from Kaykay-

"That is nice to know that some people do take the shoes off. Do they trim the hooves back to normal state too? I know the Morgans were never taken off. 

Again, I can only draw on my experience from the Morgans, but I will tell you very few of the Park horses were pleasant to work with, most were at times flat out crazy. The Pleasure horses were a bot better to handle, but even then there were many crazy ones. You would get them hitched and it was stand back and heads up when it was time for them to move forward. They were rearing and leaping until they got going. It was like a barrel horse getting ready in the chute to run the pattern. It is nice to know that these ponies behave much better than that. At least they are smaller if the do carry on."

This was posted from Kaykay on page 8 and the above was in reply: "No they were not shod. As Andrea said a lot of farms take the shoes off in the off season (but not all). 

 

There is a huge misconception about Modern ponies from their temperment to their movement. These ponies know when to turn it on and when to be at home."



Minimor said:


> It's the tone of your posts, not the tone of your voice. One does not have to hear a voice in order to detect the "tone" of what is written!!
> 
> Seriously? It was you yourself who turned this thread toward temperament. You opened the door with this post:


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## Sandy B (Oct 22, 2011)

You are right, improper shoeing and improper confirmation is not in the best interest to any horse that are forced to do something that they are not physically made to do. When we start our 2 yr olds that are bred to rein, they do sliding stops on their own in the round pen and when you first start riding them. You know almost immediately which one is going to stop and made to do it and the ones that don't'. If we do not put sliding plates on them they actually will hurt themselves as they try to tuck that hind end they do more damage then good. I am sure that if you go to a reining horse forum that more people would be happy to help you with your thoughts and explain. This is a mini horse forum.



SweetOpal said:


> Personally myself I find it disgusting that someone would run the heck out of a quarter horse, to only make it slam on the brakes and sit its arse down on the ground and call that a sport! That has to be wrong on so many levels!!!! I can't imagine the pain this horse suffers long term on its hind end.


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## Minimor (Oct 22, 2011)

No, I didn't forget about that post of Kay's but I took her comment as an "in passing" comment re: misconceptions. You picked up on the temperament half of that sentence & went from there. Everyone else posted in response to your later post.

But, have it your way--it' everyone else & not you who takes this thread into a different direction.


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

Yes, there are lots of supplements out there that claim to do everything. We get a ton of magazines as my husband is a sales rep for many different tack lines and anything his companies advertise in we get copies of. Every magazine that is dedicated to performance breeds or disciplines have a ton of these advertisings for everything from joints to hooves, to fertility to attitude to gut health. You name it, there is a supplement for it. Legend and Adequan are advertised like crazy as well as Regumate. Our performance breeds work hard, the majority with riders on their backs and the majority are good sized horses. Unfortunately wear and tear occurs from all disciplines.



disneyhorse said:


> Although I don't feel that strongly about it, at work some of my Quarter Horse-owning friends bring in their breed magazines. I am not surprised at the sheer number of advertisers in their magazines for joint supplements and injections. The magazines tailored for Jumpers also has a very high percentage of ads for joint pharmaceuticals, too. Those companies go where the money is... obviously there is a bigger demand in the reining and jumping markets...
> 
> Adequan is the "Official Joint Therapy" of the AQHA and the NHRA. They are also big-time sponsors for a lot of the hunter/jumper circuits.
> 
> ...


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

You took her comment one way and I took it another. I am not looking to "have it my way". It seems not one person mentions the things I say positive about the Shetland breed or the positive and thankful comments I said to the people who have been kind to explain their wonderful pony breed. Instead I am judged for my "tone", which is the tone you(referring to all, not just you) put in your own head when you read my comment(s), which in fact may not be my tone at all.



Minimor said:


> No, I didn't forget about that post of Kay's but I took her comment as an "in passing" comment re: misconceptions. You picked up on the temperament half of that sentence & went from there. Everyone else posted in response to your later post.
> 
> But, have it your way--it' everyone else & not you who takes this thread into a different direction.


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

Since everyone is judging my "tone" even though they did not hear my voice, i want to explain what my "tone" was so you all can quite judging my "tone".

This was my original post:

I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies. 



*Here is what my tone was: Flabbergasted, shell shocked, disbelief and disappointment*. 



I KNEW this stuff went on in the Morgans, the Saddlebreds and Walkers and even Hackney Ponies but I had no idea that it went on in "AMHR" (read my previous posts, I now know Congress is not AMHR event). In my brain and experience The Journal magazine was a AMHR magazine that was all about under and over miniature horses. I have very limited mini horse show experience. So I apologize for my un-educated statement about AMHR. 



I was so upset that "over minis" or ponies (whatever you prefer to call them) were subject to those long toes and big shoes that I saw in some of the photos in The Journal (current issue). I want to say this very clearly, I do not have any issues with normal hoof length or a bit long in length and regular keg shoes. What I can not believe is the excessive hoof length and big shoes and pads I see on several of the pictures in the current issue of The Journal and the ginger use. It is obvious in the magazine which ones I am referring to. Since the tails were explained to me, I feel much better about that. Thank you to those who explained the tail sets and the positive changes that have been made over the years in that regard. 

I also want to say (and I am repeating myself, yet no one acknowledges that I said this) that I do not have any right to comment about Shetland Ponies dispositions or attitudes as I have no experience with this breed EXCEPT for the incredible Shetland X pony I had for many many years as a child. I have never been to a AMHR or Shetland Pony show. My experiences with "big stepping" horses have been Morgans and a few Saddlebreds. I specifically in my posts said that is where I drew my knowledge from. 

There will always be those in every breed and discipline that use excessive means to get more, without respect or thought of the horse. This could be training or artificial means. It is not right in ANY BREED or DISCIPLINE. I think most of us know what excessive is and we all deal with it in our own ways. 

I vocalized my thoughts and disappointment in learning that even "over minis" (or ponies if you will) were subject to the big shoes and excessive hoof length that I witnessed in Morgans. I knew ginger floated around, even used against AMHA regulations, but it seemed way less than in the Morgans. 

And I will say one more time as I have done in previous posts- I AM NOT JUDGING THE SHETLAND BREED AS A WHOLE. I am only talking about the few pictures I saw in The JOURNAL and it did not matter to me what breed it was, all I knew is it was a small horse as it was in a AMHR magazine.


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## Marty (Oct 23, 2011)

Ok my dear friends, Its getting too hot here and I've been silent long enough....Its that 60's hippie in me that is dying to cut loose here, peace and love and all that you know? So its time....

Let's all join hands now and sing TWO chorus of Kum by yah. Its a really good song!

Love and respect to all.


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

Marty, you rock! I am singing it, I am singing it loud!!







Marty said:


> Ok my dear friends, Its getting too hot here and I've been silent long enough....Its that 60's hippie in me that is dying to cut loose here, peace and love and all that you know? So its time....
> 
> Let's all join hands now and sing TWO chorus of Kum by yah. Its a really good song!
> 
> Love and respect to all.


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## tagalong (Oct 23, 2011)

Just catching up on this thread after a few days...



> I see someone wants to flame reiners, and is it a coincidence that Sandy reins?


Oh for heaven's sake - I was using the reiners as an example because Sandy DOES do reining and it was something she could identify with - so no, not a coincidence. I was using that as example of what you might say on a reining forum that would get folks riled up,. It was not flaming, just an observation/opinion. BTW Sandy AGREED with me about the way many reining horses have become robots and how many riders pick pick pick at them and spur spur spur.

Moderns here get their shoes pulled and slowly trimmed back for the winter.


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 23, 2011)

exspony said:


> .....The past 3 years, I've had to honor to train the best modern mare, (at least in mine, the owners & a few other's minds), that there is, RFP River Of Time., or Wy. For those who say modern shetlands are crazy really don't know shetlands. Not only is she a 5-time Congress Grand Champion, she is also a 6-time Congress liberty champion, multiple time youth champion in halter & driving and multiple time amatuer champion in halter & driving. Wy can go into the grand championship class hyped up & blowing, win the class, then come out & be handed off to a 8 year old girl for a youth class. Wy will calm down instantly and go in the ring & win for the little girl. Wy could go into a roadster class, again, hyped up and going as fast as her legs will carry her. Then switch harness, get a false tail put on, get hitched to the viceroy & show in fancy turnout with a 8 year old girl and a young boy who has never driven her before and never miss a step. Now, not shetlands are like Wy, (as a matter of fact I don't think any are), but there are a lot of calm shetlands & moderns that are still very calm.
> 
> I've attached a few pictures of this wonderful mare. The driving one is the fancy turnout picture from this year's ASPC Congress. The next is also from this year's Congress, but with my son working her down the rail in the modern youth showmanship. If you notice, she doesn't have a lot of hoof. The shoe doesn't wiegh much more than a plate, though it is a heel wieghted shoe.
> 
> ...



There is a complete article on this amazing mare in the new American Society Pony ezine posted online at www.societypony.com This website and Ezine are great resources for those interested in all the society pony breeds and this wonderful area of the equine industry. You don't have to subscribe or be a member.


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## SweetOpal (Oct 23, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> You are right, improper shoeing and improper confirmation is not in the best interest to any horse that are forced to do something that they are not physically made to do. When we start our 2 yr olds that are bred to rein, they do sliding stops on their own in the round pen and when you first start riding them. You know almost immediately which one is going to stop and made to do it and the ones that don't'. If we do not put sliding plates on them they actually will hurt themselves as they try to tuck that hind end they do more damage then good. I am sure that if you go to a reining horse forum that more people would be happy to help you with your thoughts and explain. This is a mini horse forum.



Your right its a mini forum so why are you talking about the Moderns, and you are right again, I don't know anything about reigning horses so why would I comment on them, the same as you don't know anything about moderns and how we show them, so why would you need to make such ridiculous statements about them!


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## Leeana (Oct 23, 2011)

Actually, you know when it comes to temperment even AT shows to me (and that is only me) I think the moderns actually have the better temperment over some of the classic and foundation ponies...I would even say most of the miniatures too. The moderns tend to know they have a job to do. I think all ponies and horses at home and a bit more pleasant and relaxed in general - but the above is my observation. When the bridle goes on and the handlers/drivers are near - its all business.

Now I am just a simple person, so will give a simple answer...

Going back to the origins of this topic regarding shoe and hoof length for the modern ponies - THAT IS JUST HOW IT IS DONE. You cannot plow a garden without a plow. You cannot drive a pony without a cart. You cannot show a modern without correct hoof/shoe..(well I guess you could, but what would be the fun or point in that). I think sometimes the best answer is THAT IS JUST HOW IT IS DONE. Not just with shetlands, but other breeds, and I in no way find it harmful.

Also, the fact that these ponies have been bred to do what they do and how they do it. I guess if you perhaps grew foot on a quarter horse (not even sure if you could) like the moderns/hackneys do and put those sort of shoes on a quarter horse, then perhaps it would be painful or awkward (I am not vet), but these shetlands and hackenys and build and bred to be able to take that as natural to them.


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## valshingle (Oct 23, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> I just got The Journal in the mail and am disgusted and appalled at what AMHR allows as far as shoes on these "over" ponies! One photo in particular of a Champion at Congress looked like his hooves were built up to the same length of his cannon bone. This is just wrong on every level. These are fine boned ponies (not that full sized breeds are ok to shoe like this either). And some of the tails? What the heck, they look broke to stand the tail bone straight up as well as gingered. I am not naive on what goes on in the performance horse world, but this extreme manipulation is way to excessive, especially for ponies.


Ok, by now you have been told that these ponies are not being crippled, or even going lame. You have been told from those that responded that the ponies shoes are pulled and feet trimmed in the off season. You have been told that the tails are fake. You obviously didn't even know which breed was in the photos. I personally do not think anyone should criticize something without being informed about the situation, eg. a very thin horse could be due to extreme age, rather than neglect.

You don't have to like what you see in The Journal, you don't have to participate in it, but your 'disgust' at what 'AMHR' (which is actually ASPC in this case) allows is a direct criticism of the people who participate in that sport. That is the 'tone' that you give off. Perhaps now that you have more information, you will acknowledge that these ponies are obviously not being hurt as they often have longer careers than many full sized performance horses.

Maybe, now that you have more information, you can accept that this is a case of "to each his own."


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## Field-of-Dreams (Oct 23, 2011)

valshingle said:


> Perhaps now that you have more information, you will acknowledge that these ponies are obviously not being hurt as they often have longer careers than many full sized performance horses.


THIS^^^

Look at Hollywood Dazzle. He won the Modern Formal Pleasure driving Congress championship TEN YEARS in a row, and won the World Championship NINE years in a row! How many stock breed horses- of ANY breed or disipline- can say THAT?


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 23, 2011)

RFP River of Time won her 5th Congress Grand Championship in 2011 at the age of 17. She's been a show pony since she was a yearling. As I pointed out, Moderns by their nature have a tendency to have longer show careers. As a long-term Modern owner & exhibitor, I would like to thank Valshingle for his or her perspective.

Again ... I invite anyone who wants to celebrate society ponies like Moderns or to learn more about the winning-est mare in ASPC Congress history to check out the story about River of Time in the new society pony ezine online at www.societypony.com


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## drmatthewtaylor (Oct 23, 2011)

Probably a minor point, but as the comparison was made between foot and cannon bone, it should be pointed out that Moderns and other disciplines that value high, open motion select animals with a long leg, but with a proportionately short cannon bone. So when a cannon bone is used as a point of reference it needs to be understood that it will vary.

Dr Taylor


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## Leeana (Oct 23, 2011)

On a side note, I know that RFP River Of Time has been mentioned several times in this post...if you have ever seen when that mare wins a Congress title how THRILLED the Roberts ladies are! They scream, cry and practically drop to their knee's when that mare wins! Its emotionally moving when I have been sitting at Congress and seen her win in person, and when I am sitting several states away watching her win via livecast. I love watching RFP River Of Time win the Congress just for the Roberts reaction....

Also another Modern who is "moving" (no pun intended) to watch is Davey's Declaration with Mr Sanderson here in Area II - You want to talk about a real treat! There was a photo years ago in the journal of him kissing that pony that sticks in my head. Here is a photo I took of them after a Roadster In Hand class down at Greenville Ohio..


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 23, 2011)

Leeana said:


> Also another Modern who is "moving" (no pun intended) to watch is Davey's Declaration with Mr Sanderson here in Area II - You want to talk about a real treat! There was a photo years ago in the journal of him kissing that pony that sticks in my head. Here is a photo I took of them after a Roadster In Hand class down at Greenville Ohio..


EXCELLENT POST ... another GREAT example that perfectly illustrates my point about the overall longevity of these ponies as opposed to the supposition that they are doomed to short long-term value because of shoeing.

Davy's Declaration has been around since I was practically a kid! This pony has GOT to be in his mid-20s by now. He's probably been undergoing regular Modern shoeing practices for close to TWO DOZEN years. He's still out there ... still going ... and obviously not crippled.

I purchased thousands of photos when I was with The Journal. That pic of Tom Sanderson kissing good ol' Davy is still one of my all-time favorite pics.

Thanks Leana for pointing out yet another excellent case that does much to refute the long-term damaging effects of Modern shoeing and that further supports what I've said repeatedly about these wonderful ponies' stamina and lengthy viability.


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

SweetOpal said:


> Your right its a mini forum so why are you talking about the Moderns, and you are right again, I don't know anything about reigning horses so why would I comment on them, the same as you don't know anything about moderns and how we show them, so why would you need to make such ridiculous statements about them!


I believe that you need to go back and read starting at page 1. If you read it ALL you would have your answer.


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

Field-of-Dreams said:


> THIS^^^
> 
> Look at Hollywood Dazzle. He won the Modern Formal Pleasure driving Congress championship TEN YEARS in a row, and won the World Championship NINE years in a row! How many stock breed horses- of ANY breed or disipline- can say THAT?


Actually MANY!


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## txminipinto (Oct 23, 2011)

Good lord....I think everyone just needs to walk away from this topic.



Obviously, EVERYONE has a reply for everyone else's response. As a "pony" person, thank you to all of the individuals (pony people or not) who stepped up and tried to explain the ins and outs. I took a media communication class recently and learned that you can only convert about 20% of the listening audience to your point view. I believe the 20% have been converted and the rest just aren't listening. That said...I'm off to work a pony under saddle. Its too pretty to be in here argueing about toe length, weights, and who's breed has the longest showring longevity.


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

Leeana- Once again I can not comment about Shetland Ponies temperaments as I have not been around show ponies to make such a comment. I am sure you could get Foundation and Classic fans riled up with your statement though.

Your comment- THIS IS JUST HOW IT IS DONE bothers me. Is it really in the best interest of the horse or pony? Moderns are bred to be fancy movers, it comes naturally. Many perform and show in a normal to tad bit long toe growth and regular shoes and are champions. If that is the case, why am I seeing *some *pictures of EXCESSIVELY long toe and weighted shoes? If they are bred to do it, then they should not require that long EXCESSIVE hoof growth and weighted shoes when so many other Moderns shown without that excessiveness.

Valshingle- If I told you that applying caustics to TWH causes no long term affects or bleeding pleasure horses produced no long term issues, does that make it right?

I am going to repeat myself for what feels the millionth time- I DO NOT HAVE AN ISSUE WITH SHETLAND PONIES NOR MODERNS IN PARTICULAR! I do not have a problem with shoeing Shetlands. I do not have problem even with a small amount of toe and shoes. I DO have a problem with the excessively long over-grown toe and the heavy weighted shoes.

As far as long careers, there are many, many, many stock horse breeds that have veteran show horses that carry many riders to World Titles and Championships well in to their teenage years and beyond. Every breed of horse has exceptional individuals that continue well beyond their youth.

Dr. Taylor- That is a good point. Yes, cannon bones vary in length. Thank you for mentioning. However, from looking at the pictures with a critical eye, I stand by my original comment. Especially when I see other Moderns in pictures with as much action in way less hoof and shoe then the pictures I am referring to.


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## MajorClementine (Oct 23, 2011)

I know nothing about ponies but I wanted to chime in and say I have really enjoyed reading this topic and learning from those who show ponies.

I guess I kind of relate this discussion to race horses. Many people argue that it is cruel to run horses so hard their hearts "can" burst. But this is what they love to do. They run. Sometimes they love it too much. But it comes natural to them and yes, they can get hurt. And not everyone in the racing world has the horses best interest at heart. BUT they love to run, they were bred to run. Same with these ponies I think. They were bred for this movement. This is what they enjoy doing. Is slapping a runner with a crop or a bat cruel? Not if used correctly. Are the shoes put on these ponies cruel? I would tend to think not if they were used correctly. There are a few people in every group that are cruel by nature and these people give their sport a bad name. Doesn't make the whole sport bad.

I guess what I'm saying is that we need to have tolerance and try to understand each others passions before we jump to conclusions. Some things can look awkward or cruel if we don't know what we are looking at. But when it is explained to you by someone who has a love of the breed and knows the ins and outs of that breed it brings a whole new light to the situation.




So thanks to everyone on both sides of this discussion. I've learned a lot of things I didn't know.


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## Wings (Oct 23, 2011)

MajorClementine said:


> I guess what I'm saying is that we need to have tolerance and try to understand each others passions before we jump to conclusions. Some things can look awkward or cruel if we don't know what we are looking at. But when it is explained to you by someone who has a love of the breed and knows the ins and outs of that breed it brings a whole new light to the situation.
> 
> 
> 
> So thanks to everyone on both sides of this discussion. I've learned a lot of things I didn't know.


I think that is very nicely said and would also like to extend my thanks to the pony people who have shared a lot of information on this thread. I've learnt a lot!


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## disneyhorse (Oct 23, 2011)

Anyone with interest in ponies (and Moderns in particular) should pay close attention to any posts by Roberts, Taylor, or Prince. They know what they are talking about!!!

Andrea


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## disneyhorse (Oct 23, 2011)

Leeana said:


> Also another Modern who is "moving" (no pun intended) to watch is Davey's Declaration with Mr Sanderson here in Area II - You want to talk about a real treat! There was a photo years ago in the journal of him kissing that pony that sticks in my head. Here is a photo I took of them after a Roadster In Hand class down at Greenville Ohio..


This pair is one of MY favorites... they are a very experienced team! They've done in-hand roadster more times than I've driven a car probably!!!

Andrea


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## valshingle (Oct 23, 2011)

Sandy B said:


> Valshingle- If I told you that applying caustics to TWH causes no long term affects or bleeding pleasure horses produced no long term issues, does that make it right?


Sandy B - I really don't think that comparing hoof length and shoes to caustics and bleeding is an equal comparison. However, I am done trying to change your opinion. Perhaps your energy would be more constructively spent by submitting rule changes to the ASPC and ASPR.

Leanna, Carin, Jason, txminipinto, disneyhorse, and ahrobertspony - thanks for all the information. I very much enjoy continuing my learning curve.


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 23, 2011)

If anyone has questions about Moderns ... my overriding passion in life ... feel free to contact me directly. You can reach me through the "contact us" option at Society Pony Online (www.societypony.com). For me, there is absolutely no point in continuing this discussion in any fashion here. Andrea, Matt, Carin, Leanna, MajorClementine, Valshingl, Wings ... it has been a pleasure discussing this subject with you. For those of you among that list who are new and taking the time to learn, as Modern owner, I say thanks. Dr Matt ... thanks for all of the good medical & professional information.

Amy Roberts Clark

Legacy Shetlands/Roberts Family Ponies


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## Sandy B (Oct 23, 2011)

I agree with you. Horses are bred to perform certain tasks and some individuals will perform even when they shouldn't due to a injury or illness but have so much heart that they do not complain. From reading all the posts, it is evident that Modern Shetland Ponies are bred to trot with lots of animation and showy attitude. I think that is awesome. I have no doubt that these show ponies are well cared for in every aspect, but there seems to be a few that take it to the extreme (just like in any other breed). I saw lots of fantastic pictures in The Journal of Modern Ponies (I actually thought in the beginning they were over minis) that were shod and normal toed or maybe a bit long in the toe and had no issue with those at all. BUT, there are several Champions listed who sport incredibly long toes and thick pads and shoes. It is those ponies I find excessive and disturbing.

I too have learned a lot thanks to those who explained things respectfully and kindly. And I greatly appreciate those who have spent their time doing so.



MajorClementine said:


> I know nothing about ponies but I wanted to chime in and say I have really enjoyed reading this topic and learning from those who show ponies.
> 
> I guess I kind of relate this discussion to race horses. Many people argue that it is cruel to run horses so hard their hearts "can" burst. But this is what they love to do. They run. Sometimes they love it too much. But it comes natural to them and yes, they can get hurt. And not everyone in the racing world has the horses best interest at heart. BUT they love to run, they were bred to run. Same with these ponies I think. They were bred for this movement. This is what they enjoy doing. Is slapping a runner with a crop or a bat cruel? Not if used correctly. Are the shoes put on these ponies cruel? I would tend to think not if they were used correctly. There are a few people in every group that are cruel by nature and these people give their sport a bad name. Doesn't make the whole sport bad.
> 
> ...


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## TomEHawk (Oct 24, 2011)

Sandy, I know a few have felt that you have attacked them & the modern ponies that a few of us show. I hope you've learned here that, like any other breed, we do love and care for our modern Shetland ponies, (sorry you just kept calling them over minis). Also, like in any other breed, some trainers/breeders do take things to the extreme. I hope that seeing a few of what you think of the extremes of the breed that you wouldn't be opposed to learning more about the breed and MAYBE, want to get in to showing/owning a few. I know quite a few breeders & trainers that would like to have someone in thier barn that loves & cares for thier ponies as much as they do.


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## Sandy B (Oct 24, 2011)

exspony said:


> Sandy, I know a few have felt that you have attacked them & the modern ponies that a few of us show. I hope you've learned here that, like any other breed, we do love and care for our modern Shetland ponies, (sorry you just kept calling them over minis). Also, like in any other breed, some trainers/breeders do take things to the extreme. I hope that seeing a few of what you think of the extremes of the breed that you wouldn't be opposed to learning more about the breed and MAYBE, want to get in to showing/owning a few. I know quite a few breeders & trainers that would like to have someone in thier barn that loves & cares for thier ponies as much as they do.




I have learned a great deal about your Modern Ponies and appreciate those that have taken the time to educate me about the breed. I never doubted that the majority of Shetland owners, especially show Shetlands owners, take exceptional care of their ponies. Their are many passionate owners/breeders/exhibitors in every breed. It is just very unfortunate when some individuals take it to the extreme and the judges use them. I deal with it in reining horses and prior to that pleasure horses. I will have to keep my eye open for a Shetland Pony show near me sometime and go watch. I would like to see more.


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## Riverrose28 (Oct 24, 2011)

I've been reading this thread from the beginning, I too was thinking some of the hooves were too long, but after reading the responses I am now educated. I would like to thank the pony people for their responses and education. I've seen these guys in action, and they are beautiful to watch, but since I'm disabled I always thought they were too much pony for me, but, after reading about some of them having great temperments, maybe I'll go to a farm or two and try one out for myself. After being in the arab world for 30 yrs I love the look of eagles and the fire in the eye, but now need the fire with a gentleness.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 24, 2011)

Riverrose... with any breed there are always those gentle individuals who still have all of the talent that you could want. Surely you have seen that in the Arabians... there are a LOT of youth exhibitors... usually those proven kid-safe horses are out there doing their job!

There are plenty of ponies out there who love people and are good with kids. But are still fancy!

Andrea


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## Riverrose28 (Oct 24, 2011)

disneyhorse said:


> Riverrose... with any breed there are always those gentle individuals who still have all of the talent that you could want. Surely you have seen that in the Arabians... there are a LOT of youth exhibitors... usually those proven kid-safe horses are out there doing their job!
> 
> There are plenty of ponies out there who love people and are good with kids. But are still fancy!
> 
> Andrea


Thank you, that is good to know! I know just the farm to visit, he is close by, just four hours away! Got to sell a few first.

On anothe note, hubby just bought me a cart and harness to drive my gransons mini, can't wait. He is trained just needs to be refreashed on the ground. I should have him hooked up by Dec. can't wait!


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## ahrobertspony (Oct 24, 2011)

Riverrose28 said:


> I've been reading this thread from the beginning, I too was thinking some of the hooves were too long, but after reading the responses I am now educated. I would like to thank the pony people for their responses and education. I've seen these guys in action, and they are beautiful to watch, but since I'm disabled I always thought they were too much pony for me, but, after reading about some of them having great temperments, maybe I'll go to a farm or two and try one out for myself. After being in the arab world for 30 yrs I love the look of eagles and the fire in the eye, but now need the fire with a gentleness.


Please check out the story on the winning-est Modern mare in Congress history ... visit www.societypony.com ... and click on the menu button for Ezine. There are ponies that can and will do it all.

THANKS to this thread and some of the thoughts it has sparked, the American Society Pony ezine is going to pursue some other articles that help spread the GOOD word about society ponies. Until then, I would also encourage you all to go back to your August issue of The Journal ... take a good look at the ad on page 29. This is one of the winning-est Modern/ASPR pleaure ponies ever. What you might no know ... this picture???? From the victory pass in the PMC class. Hats of to Howard Stables for using a great pony to give Michael his chance in the winners' circle.


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