# Carts on the road



## Marsha Cassada (Aug 9, 2011)

There were four of us driving on Friday. We were on a back country road in the morning. We were rather spread out. A pickup came barreling around the corner with the morning sun in his eyes. I heard him coming and shouted to the other drivers to look out, waved my arms and yelled. I thought at first the driver was not going to see us, but he stopped in time. Yes, he was going way too fast. Yes, we were in the middle of the road. We could have gone down like bowling pins.

This was the first time we had driven in such a large group. Groups are unwieldy. We tried to figure out a safe system, but I'm not sure there is one for a pleasure drive. If you are all driving in single file you can't converse or watch the movement/harness adjustments of other drivers. Single file wouldn't have helped in this case anyway. IN fact, I'm sure we were more visible being spread across the road.

We were upset at him for going too fast and I'm sure he was cursing us for being on the road at all.

One of those little episodes that adds spice to life.


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## shorthorsemom (Aug 9, 2011)

wow, close one ! Whew, glad you didn't get hurt. People drive awful fast these days and that could have been such a tragedy. Around here when the amish drive in a group they drive single file and have enough space between the buggies so that a car can pass and dip into the space between each buggy, rather than try to pass a whole convoy. They use reflectors and lights and with the smaller ponies and their carts I have seen them use bicycle flags to help them be more visible. Still scarey and even with precaution I have heard about accidents that have been awful. Groups are unwieldy, you want room to move out of the way quickly and be safe. You want to drive defensively and don't want to have someone next to you in your dodging space.

thanks for sharing! A lesson for all




.


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 9, 2011)

I don't think I like driving in a group. It is too hard to coordinate everyone. We all had good horses that didn't get bothered by much(--there was a half-buried culvert that caused a little balking.) Big tractors, cows, cars didn't faze any of the horses. But their traveling speed was a little different, so sometimes one was in front, sometimes behind. Plus, I was practicing half-halts with Dusty, so I was in and out of the group.

The road we encountered the pickup was off the beaten path, seldom traveled. I'm sure that driver wasn't expecting to meet any other traffic, let alone a flock of little carts. I'm not sure how one could prepare for that.

ON the paved road home we went single file. I went last with the flashing light on my cart. This is a one lane, rural paved road which has occassional traffic. I had a bicycle flag, but I wasn't wearing my reflective vest. THAT will be mandatory from now on.

Also, we had an option to travel that road going the other direction, which would have made the sun behind us. Traffic approaching behind would have seen us more easily. I'm sure on morning drives we will do that from now on.

Carts should move with traffic, but some in our group kept trying to get over on the left side. It was rather chaotic! We tried to make a plan after that, and I am sure in the future we will discuss the plan before starting out.

A group should always have a plan of travel, even in sparse areas.


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## shorthorsemom (Aug 9, 2011)

Great clarifying update... I can picture everything right in my mind now. I do know for those who drift into the left side, I was told by a cop once that you could get ticketed for driving on the wrong side of the road with your horse. I haven't tried road driving yet here, and may not any time soon considering the speed of the cars on our road. Some day I will have to address it if I want access to the other side of our farm and more trails. I am trying to cut paths around with the big mower so I can drive without going on the road except to cross at a place with plenty of visual warning both directions.

I do need to get a slow moving vehicle sign for when I have to cross the road. (note to self)

Great story and it is sure to have us all puting our safety thinking caps on! I didn't think of a reflective vest. I have one I wore during hunting season when I was line driving one of my boys, but I haven't been wearing it since I started field driving.

Take care, glad you avoided disaster and best wishes to you! Adair


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 9, 2011)

Yipes!! That could have been bad.





I have rarely gone out in groups but when we did the drive organizer got a volunteer to drive a "pace car" with its hazard lights flashing to make sure other traffic knew we were there. Barring that, I'd stay close to the side of the road, have everyone wear helmets and reflective gear (vests at the least, preferably bicycle flags, red flashers, and SMV signs) and always have a plan of escape handy as Adair said. I tend to take my Hyperbike when on the road because it's the only vehicle I have that won't overturn if I have to run one wheel into a ditch when escaping some maniac.

According to the law, horse-drawn carriages are supposed to act like regular traffic but if I did that around here I'd get flattened by cars coming up behind me on blind curves. I am not a full-sized Amish vehicle!



I tend to look more like a speed bump. For the sake of survival I travel on the side of the road and generally face oncoming traffic just as I would if I were a pedestrian. That's what we always did with our ridden horses and my mini carts fit nicely on those same grassy verges so I drive on whatever side of the road is widest at any given point and cross veeeerrry carefully when I must. No horse of mine is taken road-driving until they've been taught the importance of ironclad "Whoa," hustling across the street when told to no matter what, and tolerating traffic passing a foot away from their blinkers in either direction. I live on some busy streets and a horse who dwaddles (sp?) in crossing could get us both killed. Same thing with one who won't stand at a stop sign. More than once Kody's quick obedience has saved our lives!

I would not personally spread out across a road. No way. Two people can drive side by side if they want to but one should be on the shoulder or close to it and the other person should be prepared to dive forward and onto the shoulder in front of that horse. The next set of two should be at least a horse-length back so they too have room to head for safety. I'm all for horses having the right-of-way but the reality is that the car is going to win and I'm not risking my horse's life because "he should have given way."



(Not saying you did that, just that I'm a pragmatist and don't feel like getting flattened for my principles!) Defensive driving is the name of the game in the suburban jungle. You should see all the reflective stuff I use!





Leia


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## susanne (Aug 9, 2011)

Sadly enough, if that jerk had hit one of you, he probably would have sued to recover the damage to his vehicle.

I will NEVER drive on the roads in our county -- no shoulders, deep ditches and too many F150s driven by blithering idiot assaholics racing around blind corners. (I do drive on our dead-end gravel road, but it has wide shoulders and almost no traffic.)

I've planned on going on drives on the road elsewhere, but your story has me reconsidering. I may just stick to trails and beaches. Either that or find my late father's fire chief's light that he used to set on the dashboard when racing to fires...


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 10, 2011)

Too close for comfort.

If this is going to be a regular event why not invest in some of those motorcycle intercom radio things that attach to the helmet- then you could chat away as you drive?


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## Shari (Aug 11, 2011)

Because of the blind corners on my road... I will be on the side of the road most viable to any traffic, don't care if it is legal or not.

Legally horse's have the right of way on the road, anyway.

I also use international orange vest and for riding.. a Parson's rump. Am trying to figure out how to do something like the Parson's rump for the back of my cart. I have a big Slow moving vehicle triangle for the cart but want something more.

So far, knock on wood, people now slow down, way down and pass very slowly, when both the horse and I wear Orange.

Here is one of me riding, haven't gotten a photo of my driving Maggie yet. Normally I have an orange cover for my helmet too.






I can understand blocking the road with bikes, horses or carts, it forces drivers to slow down, instead at passing at high speed, kicking rocks at you and your horse. To many brain dead car drivers out there.


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## Lori W (Aug 11, 2011)

What a close call! So glad everyone was safe.

I appreciate reading all the great ideas to be more visible when driving our carts on the roads. Simply adding a SMV sign to the back of our cart is NOT enough.

In our area this week, an Amish woman and her horse were killed and her daughter was injured when a truck "bumped" the back of their buggy. So sad! http://www.wwmt.com/...ash-killed.html


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## RhineStone (Aug 11, 2011)

I just read an article in the August issue of The Whip that Hardy Zantke wrote. It deals some with safety, but also quite a bit on Public Relations between drivers and other motorists and riders. Check it out!

Myrna


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## shorthorsemom (Aug 11, 2011)

For some reason when I read this thread I immediately thought of Marty's son Michael. So many impaired idiot fast driving people out there, big or small roads, on horses, in cars or on 4 wheelers...

We had a wreck in front of our barn the other day, a driver texting drifted off the road and over corrected and ended upside down on top of our mailboxes. All I could think of was "what if my kids had been out there". My friends wife was just killed a couple of weeks ago hit head on by a driver passing on the double line.

Stay safe and keep those stories coming about how to make yourselves more visible. I never heard of a parsons rump before... that photo was very educational, thanks for sharing.

PS, if you google "don't shoot me" and the word horse, you will find a web page with horse and dog stuff that is in that bright orange color. Can get some good ideas there.


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## Shari (Aug 11, 2011)

This is a close up of the Parson't rump. The lady that makes them, lives in the UK.






Something like this designed for the back of a cart would be highly visible.


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## susanne (Aug 11, 2011)

I never realized parsons had such bright rear ends!

Considering how low to the ground mini carts are, I would think a parson's rump jacket or vest for driver and passenger would put those day glo colors closer to eye level.

However, if you are viewed against a busy background (assorted house colors, gardens, parked cars, etc.), even bright colors can disappear to someone not looking closely. I really think the bling-bling LED flashers are the most difficult to miss.


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 11, 2011)

susanne said:


> I never realized parsons had such bright rear ends!
> 
> Considering how low to the ground mini carts are, I would think a parson's rump jacket or vest for driver and passenger would put those day glo colors closer to eye level.
> 
> However, if you are viewed against a busy background (assorted house colors, gardens, parked cars, etc.), even bright colors can disappear to someone not looking closely. I really think the bling-bling LED flashers are the most difficult to miss.


I have the flasher. I believe the fluorescent vests and gear are more visible. Next time I'm out, I will try to do a test.


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## RhineStone (Aug 11, 2011)

And don't use those Mini-sized SMV signs. You want it big.

Myrna


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## REO (Aug 12, 2011)

I thought I saw long ago some drivers that had tall things with the orange flags sticking up of either side of the cart. They were tall and you couldn't miss them.

Do you know the things I mean?


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 12, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I have the flasher. I believe the fluorescent vests and gear are more visible. Next time I'm out, I will try to do a test.


I've done that test. The flashers are far more visible! I was coming back from ground-driving Kody last winter as it got dark and met my parents coming out on their walk. I could see Dad's red LED on his walking stick as soon as they crested the hill over 1/4 of a mile away but they could not see Kody and I until they were right on top of us despite a reflective jacket on me and reflective bands on Kody. They said they could hear my voice long before they could see us.



I've also noticed that cars do not give us much space when I'm only wearing reflective gear at dusk- reflective stuff requires LIGHT! Until you are in the beam of the headlights, that car is not going to see you and that does not give them much time to respond. The LED's however are visible from far away and when I wear one or more of those cars slow down trying to figure out what we are and give us lots of space.

I've also had my neighbors comment that they really can't see the horses on the side of the road when I don't wear lights and I scare the beejeebers out of them appearing "out of nowhere." I started wearing flashers after that if there was the least possibility of being out after dark!







REO said:


> I thought I saw long ago some drivers that had tall things with the orange flags sticking up of either side of the cart. They were tall and you couldn't miss them.
> Do you know the things I mean?


Those are bicycle flags.





I think the best possible combination is International Orange (standing out in daylight) gear with reflective strips (dusk/headlights) and a blinking LED (dusk, night-time, anywhere you might blend in) in a prominent place.

Leia


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## Lindi-loo (Aug 12, 2011)

Lori W said:


> In our area this week, an Amish woman and her horse were killed and her daughter was injured when a truck "bumped" the back of their buggy. So sad! http://www.wwmt.com/...ash-killed.html



How very sad..would be great if cyclist and ponies could have theyr own lane on the roads but im sure thats not financially possible..a real shame as i would love to drive my ponies.. the lanes around here are much to narrow and it would be impossible to pass a milk lorry doing his rounds to the farms or even a tractor..id be way too nervous to put myself and my ponies in that situation especially seeing how fast they travel through the narrow lanes..scarey


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## shorthorsemom (Aug 12, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> I've done that test. The flashers are far more visible! I was coming back from ground-driving Kody last winter as it got dark and met my parents coming out on their walk. I could see Dad's red LED on his walking stick as soon as they crested the hill over 1/4 of a mile away but they could not see Kody and I until they were right on top of us despite a reflective jacket on me and reflective bands on Kody. They said they could hear my voice long before they could see us.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Hey Leia, can you tell me where on your cart you put the blinking LED lights, back, front, side, combination of all three?

A few Amish around here have started putting all sorts of lights and reflectors ALL OVER their buggies. I saw one that we saw coming down the road and we said "what the heck is that?????" It was flashing, it was reflecting and it looked like a square jukebox coming down the road. I was stunned when it turned out to be an amish buggy in the dark. Made me think of what I can do to make them say "what the heck is that", if I ever venture out on the road. For now, I am sticking with trails but am looking into all that safety gear for the future. I want to get a bicycle flag too.

Adair


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## RhineStone (Aug 12, 2011)

Be careful with the bicycle flag that you train your horse to it. I have a story on my website of someone who did not do that and the first time the flag whipped in the wind, the horse hit the ditch. Same goes for SMV signs that flip around.

Myrna


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## Shari (Aug 12, 2011)

I don't drive at dusk around here, the Bear or Cougar would think Maggie a yummy treat.






When I lived in NH, one of the Cart shops I used to go to... carried bright battery powered red break lights for the backs of carts, just like you see on cars, with their breaks on. Makes me wonder if they are still made?

I do know they still make the side lanterns for carriages. They were spendy.

Think something like the Parson's rump for my Cart, would help, specially at a distance, plus my tractor sized SMV. Orange vest and orange helmet cover.

(all my horses are trained to weird sounds, with all kinds of things, so one more weird noise to them is just me... being me again. LOL )

Hmmm... a bright International Orange harness is beginning to sound good.





The photos that were taken of the Parson were on cloudy, rather dark days.


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## shorthorsemom (Aug 12, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> Be careful with the bicycle flag that you train your horse to it. I have a story on my website of someone who did not do that and the first time the flag whipped in the wind, the horse hit the ditch. Same goes for SMV signs that flip around.
> 
> Myrna



Great tip Myrna, I was already thinking if I got a flag, I would hook it to the fence over the feed tubs for awhile first. My boy isn't blinkered, so it could set him in a tizzy if he caught that out of the corner of his eye.. I was wondering if it would fit in the whip holder? Where do people put all this stuff? I don't want sticky goo all over my cart using adhesive, do the LED lights come with straps? I wonder if you could find some reflective tape to velcro wrap to around the pipe across the back of the cart seat, brain storming here, I haven't done anything to mine yet, but want to start forming up some creative ideas so I can go to the other side of our farm to drive this winter after the crops are off. It would require me to cross the road and go a little bit on the road... they drive too fast here, but I am using the mower to clear some places to cross where I would have some decent visibility for a distance.


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## a mini dream come true (Aug 12, 2011)

omg! glad there was a good ending to the story and no one was hurt. Thanks everyone for the wonderful advice given



. I would have to drive on the road right now if we went off the property. I think that is why I am basicly still in training.


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 12, 2011)

My battery led light is magnetic. YOu get them at a farm store or order from Gemplers. It attaches to the backrest bar. It either flashes or is steady. I usually use the flasher. It is made for farm implements, so the magnet is very strong. I've never had it fall off. Cost is about $27.

The bicycle flag--a neighbor welded a flag holder onto the back of my cart for parades. I put the bicycle flag in that. I think you could attach it with zip ties, however. I dont' think it would go in a whip holder very well.

I'm not going to stop driving just because something "might" happen. It is part of my life.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 12, 2011)

I agree with Myrna about training to the sight and odd whipping sound of the bicycle flag. Those things make the weirdest noises in a high wind!







shorthorsemom said:


> Hey Leia, can you tell me where on your cart you put the blinking LED lights, back, front, side, combination of all three?
> A few Amish around here have started putting all sorts of lights and reflectors ALL OVER their buggies. I saw one that we saw coming down the road and we said "what the heck is that?????" It was flashing, it was reflecting and it looked like a square jukebox coming down the road. I was stunned when it turned out to be an amish buggy in the dark. Made me think of what I can do to make them say "what the heck is that", if I ever venture out on the road.






You've nailed it- I put them anywhere I can in order to make those drivers go "What the..." and slow down! There's nothing quite like being unidentifiable to get someone's attention.



If I had enough of the flashers I'd put some light ones down on Kody's ankles as I think the movement would look freaky just like those bicycle pedal flashers do. We could start a new trend...being an "UBO." Unpredictable Blinking Object!





I've been meaning for years to get a picture of Kody and I in every scrap of reflective gear we own so maybe I'll try to do that soon. It would be fun to share as I've got quite a lot at this point.

One thing I do try to do is keep those LED's out of my horse's eyes at night time. Red isn't too bad in general but LED's are bright and can damage your eyesight as well as simply messing with the horse's night vision and my goal isn't to handicap the horse, just to have the cars see us. I'd like to have a steady light on each side of his neckstrap, a flashing one on each rear corner of the cart, and maybe one facing forward up on my helmet. Then reflective gear everywhere else!



shorthorsemom said:


> Where do people put all this stuff? I don't want sticky goo all over my cart using adhesive, do the LED lights come with straps? I wonder if you could find some reflective tape to velcro wrap to around the pipe across the back of the cart seat, brain storming here,


No goo necessary. I get my flashers at bike shops so they all come on stretchy straps or clamps meant for metal tubing. Zip ties would also work fine and I LOVE Marsha's idea of magnets! (Thanks, Marsha.



) When I first went to the National Drive in 2007, Iowa Valley Carriage had a set of reflective stuff meant for big horses that she was selling as carriage reflectors. Most vet catalogues for instance carry those reflective neoprene tail wraps for riding? Those work GREAT on shafts! I bought a set of big horse bridle reflectors the next year which for minis fit nicely around harness straps and on the browband.

My best find has been a set of those snap bracelets for wrists made in a reflective material for runners. I got my first two way cheap at Walmart and haven't been able to find them since but just recently I saw them at Fred Meyer and snapped up enough to do all four legs on both horses. They were pricier there ($5.99 for a set of two) but I learned my lesson and wasn't about to miss out because they cost more! Those are AWESOME as they go on really quick and easy, the underside is lined with soft velveteen cloth, and they contract down to fit tiny mini legs far better than anything else I've found. Turbo proved that horses can kick them off if they really try but Kody's have stayed on well for years and they're really visible as they're on a moving part of the horse.

Leia


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## shorthorsemom (Aug 12, 2011)

Great information Leia...

I wonder if you can buy glow sticks in bulk .... LOL, I know of some big horse people that put on glo sticks and glo necklaces for special night rides.


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## paintponylvr (Aug 15, 2011)

Some neat ideas, I've often wondered what others used...

" do know they still make the side lanterns for carriages. They were spendy."

I wonder if the battery operated lanterns would work? That is, if you don't need authentic... They put out quite a bit of light - I really like mine for camping siturations.


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## Lindi-loo (Aug 15, 2011)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I'm not going to stop driving just because something "might" happen. It is part of my life.


Good on you



have fun and stay safe


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 15, 2011)

paintponylvr said:


> Some neat ideas, I've often wondered what others used...
> 
> " do know they still make the side lanterns for carriages. They were spendy."
> 
> I wonder if the battery operated lanterns would work? That is, if you don't need authentic... They put out quite a bit of light - I really like mine for camping siturations.


We tried those in a night parade. I don't know about all of them, but the ones we used couldn't hold up to the jolting. They wouldn't be much use in the daytime anyway.

IMO reflective gear is the best for daytime driving. We are used to seeing it on highway workers; it is a mental signal for drivers to watch out.

As an aside, I am thinking it shoudl be part of driver training for young folks to go for a mile hike along a busy road. It would give them some sensitivity to pedestrians. Many people never walk anywhere any more and have no clue about pedestrians. Bicycles enrage them and anything slower than they are "has no business on the road".

I should get a reflective sign made that says "share the road-my tax dollars are at work too".


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## RhineStone (Aug 15, 2011)

Carriage lamps ("aka side lanterns") do not give off enough light to be effective. They were designed to give off enough light to light your way and let others know you were there, but everybody was also pretty much moving at the same pace, not 60 mph vs. 5-10. And yes, they are pricey. Most people that have them ONLY use them for show. (I haven't been able to find any small enough to be in scale with my vehicle, and there aren't too many mini classes where you would need them to be competitive anyway (maybe Walnut HIll, but they aren't going to pick a VSE for Concours anyway....



). Maybe we can get lamps for our new pony!





Driving Digest sells a sign that reads, "Please Pass Wide and Slow" that you attach to the backside of your vehicle.

Myrna


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## shorthorsemom (Sep 2, 2011)

Hey, I saw a cool night driving set-up on an amish buggy driving on the road last night.

His buggy had reflectors and flashers all over it and lights like described in the earlier post, but what caught my attention and made me say "oh my" LOOK at that, was that he had put reflectors on every spoke of the wheels at the bottom where the spoke meets the outer wheel part.

What it looked like to me driving was an incredible lighted ferris wheel sort of thing as those reflectors were lighted and were spinning when my car lights illuminated the reflectors. It was a very cool effect too. Thought I would share this as a tip. Not sure how they were put on, if they were tape put around the wheel spokes or screwed on little things. They were not huge , but when you light them all up it was pretty cool looking spinning while the guy was traveling on the road at 11 pm.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Sep 2, 2011)

Neato!

Leia


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