# Splash overo to Splash overo



## windwalker (Oct 26, 2010)

Hi can you breed a splash overo to a splash overo?

I just bought a splash overo mare and i'm looking to buy a stallion but want to make sure if I should breed to a solid colored stallion or can she be bred to a splash overo ,frame overo or sabino stallion?

I have heard some overo's being deaf so I dont want to produce any foals that are deaf..

So just curious to see what all of you have to say...

Thanks ..


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## valshingle (Oct 26, 2010)

I'm no expert on breeding pintos, but I can tell you that Overos can carry the LWO gene - that stands for Lethal White Overo. If two horses are bred that are positive for the Lethal White Overo gene (LWO+, one copy each parent), you can get a foal (25% chance) that carries two copies of the gene and that is a fatal result. The foal will be born white and die within a few days.

I'm sure those that breed Overos will pipe in soon.


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## TyeeRanch (Oct 26, 2010)

I have always been taught the same thing. You never want to breed Overo to Overo, Roan to Roan, etc.

We actually have a stallion that is one of our old retired show horses that is a blue roan. His dam was a red roan and sire was a bay roan. He should have been born with the LWO gene, but luckily wasn't. He hasn't however ever sired a live foal. Each time he was bred, regardless of the color of mare, there was a malformation and abortion in the resulting foal. Genes are something to be very careful of.


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## windwalker (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks for your repley...As soon as I get her home she will be tested for LWO..


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## windwalker (Oct 26, 2010)

I have heard that you shouldn't breed roan to roan and I've heard of LWO but didnt know much about it...I just want to make sure I buy and breed her to the right stud..

Thanks for your reply..

I want to learn all I can..


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## Becky (Oct 26, 2010)

There are no lethal genes involved breeding splashed white to splashed white. There is a possibility of maximum white horses being deaf in both splashed pattern as well as frames. I would definitely test for LWO in two breeding horses as there is a lethal gene involved breeding two LWO horses together.

There are no lethal genes inolved breeding roan to roan. That theory has been disproven.


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## Songcatcher (Oct 26, 2010)

So many people have a misconception of the term "Overo". Some people hate the term and would like to see it abolished, because basically it means "any Pinto not Tobiano".

LWO is the gene that produces Frame Overo, but can easily hide when mixed with other patterns. I encourage the testing of most horses, and especially Pintos for the LWO gene. As long as one of the mating pair is negative for LWO, there is no problem breeding them together, but two LWO positive horses should NEVER be bred together.

"Splash Overo" bred to "Splash Overo" will not cause any problems unless both also carry LWO. Also, breeding Roan to Roan will not cause an LWO foal unless both parents also carry the LWO gene.

Edited: Oops! Posting at the same time as Becky.


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## windwalker (Oct 26, 2010)

Thanks Ladies...This really helps..She will be tested...

Now just to find mister right once I know how she tests...


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## REO (Oct 26, 2010)

Yes, LWO is Frame overo. And Splash is a different gene than LWO.

Only LWO-Frame is lethal if both parents are carriers and if the foal gets the gene from both. (They say a 50% chance)

Breeding Splash to Splash is safe. But it's always safest to test them for LWO since you can't always tell by looking at them if they carry LWO or not. And if one does not carry it, then it's safe to breed to any horse. But if the one you test IS a LWO carrier than you'll have to test every horse you plan to breed to it.

None of my Splash horses are deaf, not even my Max splash colt. I have not met one either. Isn't deafness more in big horse lines than mini ones? (NO I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen, just asking if it's more in the big horses)


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## Carolyn R (Oct 26, 2010)

The studdies on deafness referred to in splash and overos has to do with the skin pigmentation in the inner ear. Lack of pigmentation in the inner ear can cause a horse to be deaf due to there being no reception in the deadened nerve endings. While it is associated with splash and overo, it is how the pigment or lack there of, is dispersed. A deaf horse may or may not be of maximum expression.


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## susanne (Oct 27, 2010)

I do know of a splash overo mini stallion, formerly owned by an acquaintance, who is indeed quite deaf.

The lack of inner ear skin pigmentation definitely fits with this particular horse.

This is a sweet, gentle horse, but sadly he is being bred with no regard to his deafness.


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## MooreAcres (Oct 27, 2010)

Susanne -- I would be interested in knowing who the horse is that you are referring to...would you PM me please or email me at [email protected]


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## windwalker (Oct 27, 2010)

Thanks so much everyone...This helps a lot..Love this forum everyone is so helpful and I've learned a lot by reading other posts...Thanks again..


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## Songcatcher (Oct 27, 2010)

REO said:


> None of my Splash horses are deaf, not even my Max splash colt. I have not met one either. Isn't deafness more in big horse lines than mini ones? (NO I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen, just asking if it's more in the big horses)


From my observations, deafness is much more prevalent in big horses than in Minis. There is one particular line in Paints or Quarter Horses (which do carry Splash) where it occurs very often. This leads me to believe that there may be a cause other than (or in addition to) Splash.


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## kaykay (Oct 27, 2010)

That is true that is not nearly as common in miniatures.

Another problem breeding splash to splash is you will usually get an almost all white horse. Now if that is what you want no problem but if you DONT want mostly white horses dont breed splash to splash. I know a farm that did this (they didnt understand splash) and their entire foal crop was almost all white horses which can be a little hard to sell. Many horses carrying splash dont look like a typical splash so its easy to do


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## wcr (Oct 27, 2010)

I have based my overo breeding program on breeding splash to splash and never had a problem. I haven't had any maximum whites or deaf horses. I did breed splash to sabino but I stay away from frame horses. The most white I have had is about as much as the horse in my avatar. Many of my mares look solid but have come from splash parents.


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## windwalker (Oct 27, 2010)

Having almost or all white foals is not what I want...Thanks ladies for your replies....


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## wildoak (Oct 27, 2010)

We had a deaf mini foal a number of years ago who also fit the criteria. She was a complete surprise, as we bred our solid sorrel stallion to a palomino mare with a blaze and blue eyes....loud colored filly, completely deaf. The mare obviously carried more than we realized at the time.





Jan


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Oct 27, 2010)

We crossed my splash overoloosa stallion (LWO neg):






with a splash tobiano mare (LWO neg):






twice and ended up with these:

Black Splash/Appaloosa colt (was born solid black, blue eyes, now appying out)






And last year we got this:

Loud Black Splash Filly






And as far as not wanting almost white or completely white horses, when breeding pintos is pretty much a crapshoot (just as breeding for patterns in appies!) Was totally NOT expecting this colt from this cross.. Dam is a SOLID bay, sire is my black pinto Doc, so I'm betting Doc is a splash carrier though not noticeable on him:


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## chandab (Oct 27, 2010)

Lucky-C-Acres-Minis said:


> And as far as not wanting almost white or completely white horses, when breeding pintos is pretty much a crapshoot (just as breeding for patterns in appies!) Was totally NOT expecting this colt from this cross.. Dam is a SOLID bay, sire is my black pinto Doc, so I'm betting Doc is a splash carrier though not noticeable on him:


They are all nice, but he is too cute, and it looks like he fell butt first into a big bucket of white paint.


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## MindyLee (Oct 27, 2010)

I *bred* a buckskin roan to a bay roan and ended up with a BEAUTIFUL buckskin roan filly last year.

And did the same cross agin for a 2011 foal.

Never heard of roan on roan was leathel just the certian paint gene. _(sorry dont know exact gene)_


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## Songcatcher (Oct 27, 2010)

MindyLee said:


> I *bred* a buckskin roan to a bay roan and ended up with a BEAUTIFUL buckskin roan filly last year.
> 
> And did the same cross agin for a 2011 foal.
> 
> Never heard of roan on roan was leathel just the certian paint gene. _(sorry dont know exact gene)_


Roan X Roan is NOT lethal, although it has been widely speculated that homozygous Roan is embryonic (not sure it that is the exact term or not) lethal. In other words, a homozygous Roan embryo dies so quickly that you never know the mare has conceived. Others argue that homozygous Roans are viable. If there are any homozygous Roans, they are certainly RARE. But, the main fact is that Roan X Roan breeding will NOT produce a foal that will die shortly after birth as the LWO will.

However, what many do not seem to recognize is that LWO mixed with other patterns can be easily hidden. A Roan may easily ALSO carry the LWO (Frame) gene and only exhibit some small bit of white on the face. Same is true for any other pattern. I recently posted a picture of a filly of mine that is obviously Tobiano with white marking in her face. I had her tested and she is LWO positive. I will never breed her to an LWO positive stallion as they would have a 25% chance of producing a lethal foal. TESTING IS EXTREMELY IMPORTANT! I believe that thread has been moved to the "Best of" Forum.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 27, 2010)

windwalker said:


> Hi can you breed a splash overo to a splash overo?
> 
> I just bought a splash overo mare and i'm looking to buy a stallion but want to make sure if I should breed to a solid colored stallion or can she be bred to a splash overo ,frame overo or sabino stallion?
> 
> ...


This is the whole problem of calling Sabino and Splash "overo"

ONLY Frame carries LWO.

If your animals are tested free of Frame there is no danger of LWO.

I would have their hearing tested, though!

At the moment the jury is out on embryonic Roan lethality, as the test for Roan is not fully accurate, as far as I can see.

I am still pretty sure that, in some cases, it is, but I am equally sure that it is not so in all cases.

In order for the embryo to "die" (it actually never attaches to the womb wall and the mare comes back into season) the embryo does have to be H/Z. h/Z embryos are never affected, so there is no reason, Mindylee, why your foal should be affected.


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## R3 (Oct 27, 2010)

Splash Overo, as everyone has said, is a totally different gene than the Frame (Lethal White) Overo gene. Only two horses that carry the LWO gene, bred to each other, have any chance of producing a lethal white foal. But, if your horse comes from a pedigree with Frame horses, has any blue in its eyes, or any white markings that might indicate the presence of the LWO gene, then it is best to test them before breeding them to any other horse that has not been tested to be LWO negative.

Splash is believed to be an ‘incomplete’ dominant pattern gene. The way the pattern is expressed depends on whether the horse is homozygous or heterozygous for the gene. Think of it similar to the way that you do the ‘Cream’ gene expressing itself. With Cream, one gene on a red horse (heterozygous) will give you a palomino, but two genes (homozygous) will give you a cremello. In a similar way, with Splash, there is a difference in the expression of the pattern depending on whether the horse gets one or two copies of the gene.

The other pinto patterns are considered ‘simple’ dominants; they can be fully expressed even if the horse is only heterozygous for the gene. There isn’t any difference in the likelihood of a wild pattern in a tobiano whether the foal is heterozygous or homozygous for the tobiano gene. Both have the same chances for having a lot, or just a little bit of white.

Splash is different. To get the wild splash markings, the horse has to be homozygous for the pattern*. If a horse is only heterozygous for Splash, it should show some kind of Splash characteristic, but not necessarily the body white. Splash characteristics can be blue eyes (or even just a tiny bit of ice blue in one eye), white face markings (even just a few white hairs), or some white on the lower legs.

If you breed an obviously Splash horse to a TRUE ‘solid’, you aren’t likely to get an obviously Splash foal. The foal will only be heterozygous for Splash, so will only have the Splash characteristics, not the full pattern. To get the full pattern, both parents would have to have at least Splash characteristics, although neither of them would have to be wildly marked. The parents might even be considered to be ‘solid’ if a person wasn’t looking for the characteristics. In these cases, a person might be surprised at getting a wildly colored foal out of two supposedly ‘solid’ horses.

An obvious Splash bred to another Splash patterned horse should give you 100% patterned foals. When bred to a true solid it should have 100% foals with Splash characteristics. Bred to a horse with characteristics only, you would expect to have 50% Splash patterned foals and 50% that will have characteristics.

The amount of white that you get with the pattern is variable, from minimal to almost all white, just as it is variable with a heterozygous or homozygous tobiano pattern. There are other factors that determine the amount of white that is displayed. The Splash, Tobiano, or Frame genes just determine the way/location that the white displays.

The Splash gene interacts with other Pinto patterns to often add more white and can increase the ‘wildness’ of the pattern displayed. Splash tends to put white on the face and lower legs, so can give a tobiano a blaze or possibly put socks a frame overo. If you are familiar with the way that Splash places color/white, you can also see the Splash influence in the body patterns on a horse that is also displaying the tobiano and frame patterns.

* (Note: The percentages, etc. may not ALWAYS hold true, as there are nearly always exceptions to any rule, but for the most part, colors and patterns should produce according to the ‘rules’.)


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## windwalker (Oct 27, 2010)

Lucky C Acres....Cristina I love your guy...To bad he isnt going to stay small..Both your stud colts are awesome...

It really dont matter to me what color foal I get as long as its healthy...Its hard to find a small nicely marked double reg stud in my price range and close to home...


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## alphahorses (Oct 27, 2010)

kaykay said:


> That is true that is not nearly as common in miniatures.
> 
> Another problem breeding splash to splash is you will usually get an almost all white horse. Now if that is what you want no problem but if you DONT want mostly white horses dont breed splash to splash. I know a farm that did this (they didnt understand splash) and their entire foal crop was almost all white horses which can be a little hard to sell. Many horses carrying splash dont look like a typical splash so its easy to do





wcr said:


> I have based my overo breeding program on breeding splash to splash and never had a problem. I haven't had any maximum whites or deaf horses. I did breed splash to sabino but I stay away from frame horses. The most white I have had is about as much as the horse in my avatar. Many of my mares look solid but have come from splash parents.


I've never heard of this either, and I've been studying pinto colors for some time. My stallion carries splash and he's been bred to mares that are splash, and every foal has had more color than white.

More likely some sabino genes were in play.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Oct 28, 2010)

windwalker said:


> Lucky C Acres....Cristina I love your guy...To bad he isnt going to stay small..Both your stud colts are awesome...
> 
> It really dont matter to me what color foal I get as long as its healthy...Its hard to find a small nicely marked double reg stud in my price range and close to home...


I really don't think he's going to go over 32" if even that


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