# Ideas to help a stallion drop?????



## miniluver (Feb 5, 2008)

Please help me with ideas (if there are any) on ways to help a stallion drop. I purchased an undropped 2 year old stallion for breeding purposes. Did not even think to get a guarentee. He is just turning 3 and there is absolutley no sign of either side of his boy parts dropping. Without being too graphic, he does the usual colt things like mounting boys and hanging out on warm days. Someone told me last summer to go ahead and let him play around with some mares in heat. I tried that, and he did respond to them but never dropped the 2 important other parts. I realize some colts don't drop until 4 but shouldn't he at least have one partically down or something. It just makes me sick. I want to breed with him so badly. Anyone out there have any ideas. I'm afraid I have bought dud!!! OH!


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## Riverdance (Feb 5, 2008)

Have you had the vet check him? Sometimes young stallions will really suck up the testicles when it is cold outside. If he does not have either by now, he probably will not get them. Sometimes you may have one that has not decended by now, but not both.

At the age of three AMHA requires all stallions to have a certificate signed by the vet stating that he has both testicles. This hopefully eliminates people breeding stallions with only one testical and continuing a problem, as it is hereditary. Since your stallion does not have either yet, this could be bred into his offspring (if he ever got one or both) and be an ongoing problem for you in the future.

I bought a breeding stallion too as a yearling and by 2 1/2 he had not gotten either testicle. My vet felt that by that time, he would not be getting them. I had a real fight with the breeder, as that is what she sold him for, breeding and showing. It ended up costing me $1000 to have him gelded as the testicles were up in his belly.

When someone is selling you a stallion for breeding/ showing purposes, it is an unemplyed guarantee that the stallion you are buying will have both of his testicles. (Otherwise you could not show or breed it) I would go back to the breeder. Any breeder not standing behind their horses, is NOT a good breeder and no one should ever purchase another horse from them. If ever taken to court, the breeder would surely loose.


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## chandab (Feb 5, 2008)

Riverdance said:


> Sometimes young stallions will really suck up the testicles when it is cold outside.


This does seem to be the case, sometimes... My young stallion, can really suck his up; but his can still be palpated in the right general location, just not hanging down. Come warmer weather, then he relaxed, and poof there they were.


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## miniluver (Feb 5, 2008)

Riverdance said:


> Have you had the vet check him? Sometimes young stallions will really suck up the testicles when it is cold outside. If he does not have either by now, he probably will not get them. Sometimes you may have one that has not decended by now, but not both.
> 
> At the age of three AMHA requires all stallions to have a certificate signed by the vet stating that he has both testicles. This hopefully eliminates people breeding stallions with only one testical and continuing a problem, as it is hereditary. Since your stallion does not have either yet, this could be bred into his offspring (if he ever got one or both) and be an ongoing problem for you in the future.
> 
> ...



I did have the vet check him, but it was last summer. At that time he did not feel anything. Once spring hits if I still can't see anything I will definately take him back. So you are saying without a written guarentee the breeder should make good on the sale?


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## Just Us N Texas (Feb 5, 2008)

Yes, you can call your vet and get a series of hormonal shots to give to your stallion. First have him vet checked as to whether he does or does not have any, and if you have a decent vet., he will give you a series of hormonal shots to give him. If it doesn't work, then he will have to do surgery. Very expensive.


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## nootka (Feb 5, 2008)

i was exactly where you are, now, several years ago.

Nothing worked. In my case, one was down, and one was up. Get your vet to have a look, and opinion.

I want to say that if he hasn't dropped at that age, that is reason enough (for me) not to use him for breeding.

After what I've been through, I realize that a horse that descends normally and presents as a stallion at a younger age is more of the ideal I want to have as a breeding prospect. This is just based on what I've observed and learned, and I wasn't always minded this way.

I DID USE my then 2-year-old monorchid on a mare, because someone told me it would help him mature and it made some type of sense to me. A colt was born the following year, and he was gelded. He also sired two more colts, which are geldings. Luckily, I did not have any fillies, even though I wanted one and was prepared to deal with the consequences of this problem. However, as I researched more (my vet felt that in my case, the retained testicle was not hereditary, and I did know every male ancestor, close and far, including full brothers, and NONE had this problem), I just realized that, to me, it's like dwarfism. I don't want to play around with it. With the number of horses being bred, I need to have an edge, since I only have a FEW per year, if that. I need to eradicate every known possibility of producing inferior horses.

So you can see my mindset changed, greatly.

I cannot tell you how many posts I have read on this very forum, as well as stories heard around the miniature horse (and big horse) world about undescended stallions/colts and the worry and concern it costs their owners, as well as the breeders. I don't know 100% if it IS genetic, and in some cases it may NOT be, I am not a vet nor genetic researcher. My choice is just based on my somewhat informed opinion.

I hope your boy is descended, and you're just somehow missing them.





I did have one of those cases in a 1.5 year old colt. In that case, his testicles were so small, I did not know what I was feeling, and since I DID buy him for breeding, I was somewhat panicked. My vet showed me what was what, though, and they were both there, they were just quite small. They did grow quite a bit within 6 months, so there was no mistaking that both WERE there.

Two years old is pretty much my own cutoff, and that can depend on nutritional issues. I have seen a descended colt (all three of the colts from the monorchid stallion were perfectly normal) pull them right back up during a period of nutritional deficiency. When he began getting adequate feed, they came back down.

Good luck and let us know what your vet says.





Liz


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## txminipinto (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm sorry you're dealing with this, but nothing will make them drop if the ingunial ring is already closed. Your vet should be able to palpate this standing, or if the horse is nervous, sedate and lay him down. We had a colt that was intended to be gelded anyway that I was concerned was a crypt. We layed him down, immediately found the testicles, and castrated him immediately. If the ring is closed, I'm sorry but you shouldn't breed this particular horse. Like others, it's a trait I find HIGHLY undesireable in stallions and all crypts, regardless of pedigree or conformation are gelded at my house.


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## miniluver (Feb 5, 2008)

txminipinto said:


> I'm sorry you're dealing with this, but nothing will make them drop if the ingunial ring is already closed. Your vet should be able to palpate this standing, or if the horse is nervous, sedate and lay him down. We had a colt that was intended to be gelded anyway that I was concerned was a crypt. We layed him down, immediately found the testicles, and castrated him immediately. If the ring is closed, I'm sorry but you shouldn't breed this particular horse. Like others, it's a trait I find HIGHLY undesireable in stallions and all crypts, regardless of pedigree or conformation are gelded at my house.


Oh, this makes me really nervous and sad. I had thought I had finally found the stallion I was looking for.I just feel sick about it. I know, maybe I am just missing them. I am also worried that if they aren't dropped how do I deal with the breeder that I got him from. If she says she will take him back, I'm sad also cause I really like the little guy. If I keep him, I will have to have the expensive surgery. Excuse my pity party, I am just really disappointed.


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## Ashley (Feb 5, 2008)

I agree vet check him. I had a stud last year I wanted to use. I couldnt find both only one. So I had the vet check them. She confirmed they were both there, I just couldnt find the second one. After a year of breeding they are both very visable.

I also agree if he isnt down, I wouldnt be useing him for breeding.


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## Riverdance (Feb 5, 2008)

miniluver said:


> Riverdance said:
> 
> 
> > Have you had the vet check him? Sometimes young stallions will really suck up the testicles when it is cold outside. If he does not have either by now, he probably will not get them. Sometimes you may have one that has not decended by now, but not both.
> ...


A good responsible breeder will make good on the sale. Unfortunatly not all breeders are good and responsible. IGood luck with yours. I hope it all works out well. I too will not use a horse for breeding that does not have their testicles by 2, but a breeder should replace your horse if he does not have them by 3.


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## Becky (Feb 5, 2008)

> At the age of three AMHA requires all stallions to have a certificate signed by the vet stating that he has both testicles.


Actually, that is only required of show horses.

The problem is, many times owners and even vets don't seem to be able to find testicles! OH! I think a lot of it involves skill and the mindset by some vets that would rather do expensive castration than actually determine where the testicle is.






I took a then 3 year old stallion back just last spring that I sold as a weanling. Owner said the horse only had one testicle down. Neither she nor her vet could find the other and determined him to be a monorchid. I suggested she take him to a clinic that could ultrasound and find out where the missing testicle was. Above or below the inquinal ring. No ultrasound was done, but he was palpated by two vets at that clinic and both said, yep, horse is a monorchid and needs to be gelded. I had the stallion shipped back to me and the day he stepped off the trailer, I checked him and felt what I thought was the bottom of the missing testicle. Within a few days it was down with the other one. My vet confirmed that both testicles were there in the scrotum. Now, this horse can suck both up where many couldn't find them but he does indeed have two!





I would get the opinion of at least one other skilled vet and also ultrasound to find out where the missing testicles are before I made a decision.


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## skanzler (Feb 5, 2008)

We are going through the same circumstance. This is a very tough situation and one that come up more frequently than many of us realize.

We purchased a weanling stallion for a sizable amount. He was purchased as a future herd sire and of course our intention was to show and promote him. Alot of money was going to go into all of this....

Well needless to say he is a coming three year old. June 08....He had not dropped as a yearling so we did some limited showing and limited advertising. As a two year old still nothing. We stopped showing and promoting him, contacted the breeder and discussed our concerns. His comment was, I will not do anything until he is a full, on his birthday and no sooner, 3 yr old year. So, now we have had to sit on the crypt for three years...No show career, advertising expense etc. I checked him the end of last year and he had one down. No other to be found and the one that came down was small. I just had the vet out yesterday, as I had checked him a couple of weeks ago and thought I felt a very small nugget up inside the ring.

The vet checked and he does have the second one, but it is very small compared to the other. And the one that came down first is very small. SOOOOOO next step is to check his sperm. Is he viable? Maybe. Is he shooting blanks? Possible.

So now what????? Ok, so we have him checked and he has very little sperm production. Then what. Ok, so we have a stallion with two nuts, does that justify breeding him? Will we as breeders of top quality horses sit on a colt for three years to make sure IT has both down?

My answer to these questions is NO. I feel that this breeder should take this colt back and replace him. This boy was purchased as a show horse and a breeding stallion. Making us keep him for three years, knowing there was a possibility of no nuts coming down, to me, was unreasonable. But hey, what can you do.....

We are just hoping that this breeder will follow through and do the right thing.

Just my story.


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 5, 2008)

The Inguinal Canal is closed by two WEEKS........

After that the testes cannot descend.

Arguing is a colt a Crypt or not is really semantics- if it was bought on a breeding sound contract (something I would NEVER give to less than an adult animal BTW) then if it is not fully descended and ready for breeding by the time it is a yearling (probably more realistically for most a tow year old) then it is not going to be a useful breeding animal as far as I am concerned.

If it is a late developer it really should not be used- to pass this on to it's offspring.

Minis are _not_ "late developers" - this is a self fulfilling prophecy that we are perpetrating.

Minis are horses.

Horses should be sexually mature by the time they are Yearlings, ideally, Two year olds, certainly.

I am sorry you are going through this but, really, your concerns should be taken up with the seller in the first instance and, I have to say that without a contract they are under no obligation to do anything.

If I sold a colt as a weanling and then heard nothing at all until he was three I am not sure I would feel obligated to do anything either so the sooner you raise these concerns, even if you are told to wait and see, the better.


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## miniluver (Feb 5, 2008)

rabbitsfizz said:


> The Inguinal Canal is closed by two WEEKS........
> 
> After that the testes cannot descend.
> 
> ...


*I have been in contact with her. Within a day or two of getting him I noticed. She told me to "just give him time". Maybe all this worry is for nothing and I have missed it and he is just sucking them up. Once I have him checked this spring, I will once again tell them what the vet says. I just thought I had found the stallion I'd been looking for and waiting for and I guess I am not very patient about it. I have not felt of him just looked.*

* *


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## Windhaven (Feb 5, 2008)

Boy, does this subject bring back the bad memories. And some are not old.

I bough a coming yearling stallion and had to keep him till he was four. He was checked by 3 vets before he made the trip back home. The owner e-mailed me 2 weeks later and said it was down. Well I was down there a month after he was back home and got to feel. He had a very LARGE one and a very TINY one.

I am a firm believer, if you don't want those late blooming stallions don't use them to breed. Because probably 50% of their male off spring will do the same thing.

I also bought a stallion who the breeder said they checked and a vet checked and said both where down. When I got him home he had one. I spent over $500 dollars with three different vets and had to have a sonic ultrasound down to prove he only had one, before they would take him back.

I also bought a senior stallion who I found out after I bought him that he had LOW sperm count. Only 30% and I had him checked twice by repro specialist. The breeders said they never had a problem with him getting mares in foal and wouldn't take him back or refund some of my money. I then researched a little more into his production record and most of his foals where born one month apart starting from Feb to July.

So just be careful and do a lot of research on bloodlines, production and any breeding history you can find on the stallion you are interested in.

I wish the best of luck to everyone because this can be one of the most challenging things in the breeding world of minis, is getting a good stallion.


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## Riverdance (Feb 6, 2008)

I bought a breeding stallion a couple of years ago, and L & D Scout son. I was really concerned because he only had two foals on the ground. They said they just had too many stallions and that is why they did not use him. Made sence to me as I am in the same boat.

I did watch one of his daughters go through the AMHA World Show Auction and she brought almost $7,000.

They agreed to give me a breeding soundness contract and I brought him home. I did not get too many mares in foal to him last year, only 3, one outside mare and two of my own(bred some of my every other year mares to him, just hoping, but did not work.)



Lost a beautiful buckskin filly and had a really nice black colt. The outside mare had a really nice chestnut filly.

I bred him to several mares for this year and all of them are pregnant. I can not wait!!


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## txminipinto (Feb 6, 2008)

rabbitsfizz said:


> The Inguinal Canal is closed by two WEEKS........
> 
> After that the testes cannot descend.


I believe the vets here at Texas A&M would disagree. The Inguinal ring is considered closed (or should be closed) at 24 months of age. And I'm not just throwing that out there to be arguementive. I called and checked with our Therio vet before posting.


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## Magic (Feb 6, 2008)

All of my colts are born with both testicles dropped, and the stallions that I buy, regardless of age, have both testicles evident at birth. Seems like most of my colts born here have big ones that they can't "suck up"-- one of my vets even commented on one of my colts, at a well-baby check, saying "I hope you aren't going to geld him!". When I asked why, he pointed out how "well endowed" the colt was.



(Yep, he ended up being gelded and showing, he's one of my sweet boys).

I think that those of you that say we are perpetuating the "late bloomer" mini stallions by using same, I think you're right.


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## Erica (Feb 6, 2008)

Carin I agree too.....hard for me to believe the rings are closed by two weeks........I had a big horse gelded at two years (not by my personal vet that I use as he was out of town) other vet gelded this horse; later that night that horse had herinated and the intestine coming out his strotum hole; as his inginual ring was not closed when he was gelded.....

Back to the subject at hand, I did buy a colt from far way; he got off the trailer no testicles. I emailed and called the owners/breeders I got him from to document it. I showed him that whole year, ended up 3rd at Nationals.......waited till spring of his three year old year (by my decision) and nothing. Vet couldn't find anything as a two year old or three year old. But the people I bought him from were more than willing to take him back and replaced him with a filly I picked out.


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## txminipinto (Feb 6, 2008)

Erica said:


> Carin I agree too.....hard for me to believe the rings are closed by two weeks........I had a big horse gelded at two years (not by my personal vet that I use as he was out of town) other vet gelded this horse; later that night that horse had herinated and the intestine coming out his strotum hole; as his inginual ring was not closed when he was gelded.....
> 
> Back to the subject at hand, I did buy a colt from far way; he got off the trailer no testicles. I emailed and called the owners/breeders I got him from to document it. I showed him that whole year, ended up 3rd at Nationals.......waited till spring of his three year old year (by my decision) and nothing. Vet couldn't find anything as a two year old or three year old. But the people I bought him from were more than willing to take him back and replaced him with a filly I picked out.


Erica, very true! That does happen occasionally. The students here are taught to close the RING (not the incision) on any stallion they geld if the ring hasn't already closed itself. It just sets them up for a case of pertionitis if they're lucky and a disemboweled gelding if they aren't!





On Crypts, many times they have to close the rings before they close the incision to prevent a herniation post op. So, a crypt isn't always a crypt because the rings closed. Sometimes the testes just stay abdominal and some horses' rings never close.


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## Charlene (Feb 6, 2008)

even though i never intend to own a stallion (or mare, for that matter), i find this discussion fascinating.

when testicles are retained, does that not render the horse infertile? the way i understand it, sperm cannot live at the higher body temperature that would be present if testicles are retained. be that as it may, even though the horse would be infertile, would he not still exhibit stud-like behavior?


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## Carolyn R (Feb 6, 2008)

A stallion that is fully retained can have a not so nice disposition to it. I am not saying it is the case with all of them, but it is the case with alot of them. I would think that it would render them infertile, but then again I am sure there are those that can attest to a freak occurance. As far as a stallion that is partially dropped or drops very late in life, it is not a desirable trait to want that as part of a breeding program.

I know of a full size horse that was/is partially retained, and he has alot of the stallion traits to him. It took me a long time to find the humor in his name, it just never clicked OH! "High Ball"

He was gelded later in life, but I don't know if it was done correctly/completely.


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## HGFarm (Feb 6, 2008)

Yep, once the ring closes, you are stuck. No hormonal shots are going to make it/them drop down through that and show up.

I agree with the comment also that Minis are NOT 'late bloomers'. Our full sized horses usually didnt drop til late yearling or the spring of their 2 yr old year is usually when we gelded. (Not to say they couldnt have been done earlier, but this seemed a good time) Full sized horses are known to continue growing and filling out til 7 years of age- we did not start breaking them til 2 1/2 (actual riding) and it was kept VERY light- just teaching some basics til they were three. None of our horses were started on competition work for speed events and all til they were at LEAST five. They stayed sound.

Most Minis appear to be fairly matured at three or at the latest, four.


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## PrestigeMiniHorses (Feb 7, 2008)

This is very heartbreaking to read because I must say I am in this boat.



My stallion, Blue, is 20 months now and from what I can tell he has not dropped. If his boys are up inside I know I can't find them. I know there is no way I want to give him back but there's no way I can afford to have him gelded as a crypt or a monorchid stallion. The breeder is a great friend of mine so I am sure I can contact her and talk with her about other options but I don't want to him to go back to her. So what do you do in my case



.... I knew I wasn't the only one out there who had this problem I suppose but I must say I bought him a as breeding stallion as well to breed to my mare. I suppose that won't happen.



I too thought he was the one to start my herd.

Gee what depressing news


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## Margaret (Feb 7, 2008)

We once rescued a stallion who had not dropped by 3 years old.

He was later moved to an area that was next to my cycling mares durring the summer..

He finally dropped 2-3 months later -both testicals, but one at a time.

And by the time his new owners picked him up, they were pleased that the surgury to geld him would be less costly than one that had them retained.


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## kaykay (Feb 7, 2008)

I strongly agree with the rest that this is a problem we created ourselves by using late dropping stallions as herd sires. Miniature horses should be held to the same standard as any other horse. All of the colts born here were dropped at birth and then ready to geld by 6 months. When my vet came last spring to geld cody he was just shocked that he was dropped. He had been told by so many miniature horse breeders that minis dont drop till 2 or 3 that even he bought into it.

I have seen Miniatures drop spring of their second year and I have heard of them dropping at 5. But for me that late dropping would exclude them from being herd sires.

I know many breeders write in their contracts must be dropped by 3. Ughh. By 3 you have waited years and maybe even put money into showing that horse and then send it back?? Its heartbreaking!


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## disneyhorse (Feb 7, 2008)

I agree with KayKay... this appears to be something genetic and the more that people hold onto waiting, or breeding those colts that drop late, drop one late, or never drop at all... makes it worse and worse for people buying those colts.

I've been lucky that I've never had a colt NOT drop. Most you can feel testes the day they are born, and although they can "suck them up" when they are stressed, after working, or feel cold hands, they are still "there" if you grope around long enough. My colts are used to me groping them almost weekly down there, not only to make sure he has "two" but to handle the sheath area because being nice while I clean their sheath as geldings or stallions is important.

My current colt had HUGE ones as a weanling and they never went away. He is a shetland pony, but minis of course came from the shetlands so I wouldn't imagine it would be much different. And SOME minis have quite large "ones" anyway!

I'm sorry for everyone who has had to deal with this... perhaps we can all learn and really try to put a guarantee in our contracts?

Andrea


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## LaVern (Feb 7, 2008)

I agree kay kay. Don't use them if they are late in dropping.

What worries me more than selling a colt to someone for breeding that doesn't drop by at the very latest 2, are all these colt that I sell or give to kids for 4 H projects or just pets. What are they going to do with a horney little 2 or 3 year old colt until it does drop. And most of these kids do not have the money to do surgery. You can bet they are not going to give me a good reference.

Also, in my opinion anyone that buys a baby for a potential stallion material is a gambler (I have done it). Sometimes you win, most of time you lose.

We will bend over backward to back our customers. I have replaced horses three times because they didn't get enough BLUES or there was a PERSONALITY confict, whatever. But, this guarantee thing has gotten out of hand. There are no guarantees in farming and that is what the horse business is-a big fat farming gamble.


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## Songcatcher (Feb 7, 2008)

LaVern said:


> I agree kay kay. Don't use them if they are late in dropping.
> 
> . . . . But, this guarantee thing has gotten out of hand. There are no guarantees in farming and that is what the horse business is-a big fat farming gamble.


So well said.


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## miniluver (Feb 7, 2008)

PrestigeMiniHorses said:


> This is very heartbreaking to read because I must say I am in this boat.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


[*size=6]I partially feel better hearing from all of you, but it also depresses me to see how many of you are in the boat with me. I'm just hoping and praying that he has dropped since the time I had him vet checked. Which was back last spring. He was barely 2, I believe. I'm not quite sure when I took him. He isn't quite 3 yet. I'm with you above. Do you make a "business" decision and send him back (that is, if they even agree to it), or do you spend money, you really don't have, to have the surgery????[/size]*


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## Songcatcher (Feb 7, 2008)

miniluver said:


> . . . Do you make a "business" decision and send him back (that is, if they even agree to it), or do you spend money, you really don't have, to have the surgery????[/size][/b]


My first priority is a business decision. What is good for the breed, in the long run is good for me. I would NOT wait until he was 3 or 4 (or more) and say, "Oh Great! He has descended now. I will use him for breeding." That is perpetuating the problem. Not good business or good for the breed.

Emotional attachment would be a secondary priority. If I "loved" the horse and had the facilities to keep him separated from others and the condition was not an immediate danger to himself or others, I would wait to see if they would eventually drop and he could be gelded more easily/economically.

IF the condition presented a health problem to the horse or to others (as in being dangerous to handle), and I could not financially afford the surgery, I would either a.)give him to someone who had the resources to have the surgery done, or b.)have him humanely put down.

Most of all, I agree with others above and would NOT knowingly use a horse for breeding if he was a late dropper.


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## PrestigeMiniHorses (Feb 7, 2008)

Emotional attachment is more of a priority to me. I do have the means to seperate him to see if they do drop to see if I could save myself some money. Because I too am all about bettering the breed also. So gelding a horse who could cause problems later doesn't bother me. I am just disappointed that I spent all the money on the horse and now will spend alot more to have him gelded. Its not so much of a business choice though for me atleast.


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## KAYO (Feb 8, 2008)

One of our stallions didn't drop the second testicle until he was 4. The one seemed to be always present, had my regular vet check him and he couldn't find the other one, took him to Lexington, KY had a equine vet check him and he started him on the hormone shots, don't know if they helped or not because it was 1 year later before he dropped. I kept him stalled next to mares and turned out next to mares in hopes that this would help to stimulate things. He has sired one colt and at 2 (young 2 year old) he has both. I had pretty much lost hope, but was optimistic because he didn't present any other crypto characteristics that I was warned about. Good Luck


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