# Stud chains in mouths



## MiniHunterHorseFan (Sep 23, 2010)

What is other people's opinions on putting stud chains in horses mouths and yanking on them in general? Isn't it cruel? Can't another form of punishment be used? I'm just wondering why anyone has to do it? I feel really bad for horses that have to endure it because I wouldn't want someone to put cold metal that snaps harshly against my tongue. Just my opinion.


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## ohmt (Sep 23, 2010)

I suppose it depends on how it's being done. Metal on a horse's tongue.....like having a bit in the mouth? Or like using a twitch? Horse's have different pain thresholds when it comes to their mouth which is why a horse can have their teeth pulled one minute and be out running around and eating the next. So a bit in YOUR mouth is a lot different than a bit in a horse's mouth. A stud chain in your mouth is a lot different than a stud chain in a horse's mouth. Have I ever used a stud chain in a horse's mouth? Nope (I don't use twitches either), but I'm not going to get upset about another person using it if I don't know their reasoning behind it and if I haven't seen the extent of this 'yanking'


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## disneyhorse (Sep 23, 2010)

Anything can be "cruel" depending on the situation/circumstance and how it is applied.

Jerking on a snaffle bit is just as cruel as jerking on a stud chain, is it not?

Is applying a stud chain over the gum to help twitch a fractious horse that needs an injection cruel?

That said, I believe that slow, consistent training is MY way to go and I've never had to resort to a stud chain through the mouth on my horses.

However, I have dealt with an ill-mannered, 2000 pound Percheron gelding that would just as soon drag you off than go where you wanted, so when I had to lead him, he got a stud chain through his mouth and guess what, if he STILL tried to drag someone off, he got jerked in the mouth with it until he decided to pay attention. So in that situation, what do you do? Just let the horse drag you off?

This post is too vague to really answer one way or another...A

Andrea


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## Nathan Luszcz (Sep 23, 2010)

Using a mouth shank is normal operating procedure in breeding farms. Its the same thing as a nose chain, when wielded by a sensitive, experienced handler. In breeding, it signifies to the stallion that they are going to the breeding shed, and its appropriate to act like a stallion. In every day activities, stallions are often handled with nose chains. That gives the stallions a definite que they understand to tell them how they are expected to behave.

Of course, protocol varies between farms. That is just the way I've been taught, and the way I run my breeding operations.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 23, 2010)

I agree it depends, but a chain in the mouth of an older, experienced horse that "knows" the routine is one thing. Putting a chain though a young horses' mouth while trying to teach them to whoa, or walk-up or ear, etc. is probably a bad idea and not going to work. Then, if this young horse was not "getting" the command and the chain was "yanked" then I would personally consider that unnecessary and cruel. But again, there are a lot of variables that could be in play here. I personally think a chain - through the mouth, over the nose, whatever - is for an older, experienced horse and used as a "reminder" of something they already know, but may feel tempted to misbehave. In the example of the draft gelding - yep, I would have used it.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Sep 23, 2010)

I have spent a lot of years with thorobreds and there are several that I would dare anyone to try to manage without one. I also sold a mini stallion once and he was nice as can be when he left here, but the new owner called me about a year later and said she was terrified of him. She had never diciplined him "at all"....she brought him back here....he was not abused at all, but I did manage him with the chain in his mouth until he gained back all of the manners that he had lost. There was no need for me to "yank" it and I never drew blood....just a steady pressure helped him to be a gentleman again. I see absolutely nothing wrong with it when they are used appropriately. I do however see that sometimes it is a problem when non-horse people get a horse and let it take control, fail to teach it manners and create a problem for someone else (and the horse). I do not currently have a horse on the farm that needs the stud chain in the mouth, but if I ever do get another one, I wouldn't hesitate.


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## txminipinto (Sep 23, 2010)

Stud chains are like any other training aid like a bit, spurs, or a riding crop. Most horses don't need a stud chain. Some do. Some just need it under the jaw. But then there are horses that need a chain over their nose, through their mouth, or over their gum.

All of my in-hand performance horses show with a chain under the jaw. It allows me to give very fine and detailed cues when asking for manuvers in class. Most of the horses are longed with a chain under their chin to help rate them on the line. Then there are a couple that yank and drag me and have to have the chain run through their mouth to remind them to mind their manners.

Then there are the studs that require special handling during a breeding. One stud just needs his halter and no chain. One needs a chain over his nose. And then another needs a chain run over his gum and a plastic waffle bat to keep him in line.

The horses that need a more severe chain truely need them to prevent them from hurting themselves or their handler. Anyone who claims that its not needed is more than welcome to take my most rowdy horses for a walk! They are happy and healthy but would take advantage of the situation.

That all said, I would never use a stud chain to train a horse to lead. A plain halter and lead rope is all that is needed to achieve that.


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## Psultan (Sep 23, 2010)

I would never use a STUD CHAIN in the mouth, gums or over the nose. I do not use a Show Chain under their chin. Now that said the show chain I use is captive so no presure on the chin. That also goes for STALLIONS and babies, LARGE HORSES or small ones.

There is no secret just work and train them thats all it takes. For breeding I will use a chain under the chin. Maybe this comes the large horses and I want to ride the and have a GOOD MOUTH.


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## Minimor (Sep 23, 2010)

I have never had need to use a stud chain and have to say I think they are pointless on Miniatures. There's something wrong somewhere if any adult needs to use a stud chain on a Mini. I once got a very hard to handle 2 year old B division stallion--a solid built boy so he was plenty strong--and I didn't even have to resort to using a chain over his nose or under his chin; just an ordinary halter and rope and a couple of halter lessons and he was minding his manners very well. If I could handle him without a chain I sure don't figure I need one on any of our youngsters that we raise. I do show with a chain sometimes, but when I do I wrap it so that it doesn't tighten on the horse's jaw--it works more like a mild bumper bar than a chain.

With the Morgans I sometimes used a chain around the nose for showing but that was only on certain horses that needed a little reminder that I was in charge. I didn't ever need a stud chain on them and only once did I have to resort to a lip chain, which got used instead of a twitch--no jerking on it, just a couple of tugs to focus the horse's attention on the chain rather than on the procedure the chain was distracting from.

If the horse is one that I am using for riding or driving, I don't want the chain being put through the mouth and potentially causing damage that will ruin the horse's "good mouth".

I know some of the full size breeding stallions they use stud chains on are very rank and hard to handle--I am not going to comment on them because those are not horses that I care to handle with or without the chain through the mouth and I don't think that is what this thread is about anyway.

Yes, a snaffle bit that gets yanked on can do damage to the horse's mouth, but I try to avoid yanking or jerking on any bit when it's in the horse's mouth and I would have harsh words for any person that misused a bit on any of my horses! I have seen and heard of some things about people misusing bits--things that make me feel quite ill--there are some people that really don't deserve to be riding horses if that is the best they can handle them!


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## JMS Miniatures (Sep 23, 2010)

Unless you have a mini thats competely out of control you should not have to do that. If you have to then there is something seriously lacking in the training of that horse. Yes they carry bits but do you literally yank on their mouths with them? No.


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## Marty (Sep 23, 2010)

Thank you Minimor from the mouth of reason, I bow to thee






I didn't think I even had a chain on the place but low and behold I did find one while cleaning my tack room and for the life of me I don't even know why its here. If someone cannot handle a miniature horse without the use of a stud chain, something is very wrong and its not with the horse. And put it in his mouth? That doesn't even begin to compute.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Sep 24, 2010)

In the perfect little world, no...there would never be a need for them. On the perfect farm where people imprint and the horses are trained from birth to be friendly and kind there probably is no need. But in reality if a horse is trying to eat me alive and I choose to put a chain in his mouth and let him chew on that "instead" of me, then I don't find that to be abuse...only tactful thinking. Now..if I yank on the chain and cause the horse to flip or cut his mouth until it is bleeding, then "yes" that is abuse. But the stud shank was invented down the road by someone who didn't live in the perfect world and had to actually train horses that would hurt him if he could not figure out a way to manage them. When the mini stallion came home here, he would pin his ears and run at you with his mouth wide open trying to take a plug out of me...should I have hit him in the face with a riding crop and made him head shy, or should I have put a chain his mouth to try to keep him from taking out my knees when I was walking him? I don't know the answers...all I know is that there was no just walking up and saying "now calm down fluffy"....that didn't work here. Why did the horse come back to me this way...well I will tell you....the lady fed him treats and then if he turned suddenly or pinned his ears...she ran...she told me this...he got worse and worse until he would run her out of the field when she went in with the mares. He "learned" that he could bully...and he liked it. He would bite you and rear...walk on his hind legs coming toward you and try to strike you in the face. Now...perhaps none of you have had to handle a mini that did this...but if you did...what would be "your" suggestions. I think "without pain"....just diverting his attention to something else...the stud shank helped immensely. In fact...I know it did. The horse left here a gentleman and is still one to this day...not head shy...not hurt...not scared...just trained...actually retrained.

I learned several years ago that no matter the size of the horse, there are those (especially stallions) that will test you. It is then up to you to let him know that it is "not" OK in the most tactful and reasonable manner for both of you. I have worked around horses that would "kill" you if not handled properly....yes they were big thorobred stallions and just full of steriods (once again...because that is the "real world").....I saw one attack a woman while she was holding him for his bath after his morning workout....literally got down on his knees and was mauling her like a pit bull would have...an ambulance came and got her...she was hurt badly, but survived.

That horse was very dangerous. He also had a knack for grabbing his walkers knee (jeans) and just flipping that person over backwards. This may not sound feasable to any of you...but it is all very true and a stud shank in the mouth (or even over his gum when he was at his worst) was the "only" way to manage that horse. What kept him around was that he could truly run and won lots of races. Bales of staw were placed in front of his stall so the people walking horses in the morning could not get close enough for him to lunge out and get them, because once he did and all I saw was feathers flying as he tore the sleeve right off of that girls down jacket. Thankfully she had that jacket on and it wasn't her arm that he got...oh forgot to say also that he tore a piece of a girls ear off as well. I will go even further and tell you that his name was "Steel Robbing"...he was trained by A.J. Foyt Jr. and we were stabled in barn 5A at Churchill Downs...if you all know anyone that happened to work for Tony in the mid 1980"s.....they will have no problem telling you about this horse. There were several others in that barn that would "manhandle" you....but Robbie was the worst.

I choose to have minis now at this point in my life as they are loving and docile little horses. I do not have one single horse on the farm that is hard to handle and I hope most all of you don't either....but you should never judge or "never say never" until you find yourself in a situation that you then need to try to outsmart the horse....not necessarily try to hurt it. A stud shank can be used by an "experienced" handler and never cause one bit of pain....just as a diversion of their attention.


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## tagalong (Sep 24, 2010)

> I choose to have minis now at this point in my life as they are loving and docile little horses. I do not have one single horse on the farm that is hard to handle and I hope most all of you don't either....*but you should never judge or "never say never" until you find yourself in a situation that you then need to try to outsmart the horse....not necessarily try to hurt it. A stud shank can be used by an "experienced" handler and never cause one bit of pain....just as a diversion of their attention.*


Bolding mine. Exactly right.

I have had to deal with two minis that I ended up having to use a stud chain over their noses for. And it had nothing to do with me and everything to do with THEM. It is all well and good to say you would *never* do this or that - until you are in a situation that may require that. The one mini stalion I had to deal with many years ago before I moved here was rank and a danger to himself and others - horses as well as humans. He needed a firm, fair correction and he blew off everything except that chain. After a while, he no longer needed it for day to day activities but ALWAYS needed one for breeding. ALWAYS. And you had to watch him like a hawk or he might snake his head around and grab you. Before you ask, no - it was not my decision to breed that one.



> If someone cannot handle a miniature horse without the use of a stud chain, something is very wrong and its not with the horse.


*Marty* - to be fair, generalizations like that are not always true - or fair.





Not all minis are the calm, quiet horses they are advertised to be.... and I think this is where a lot of owners get into trouble. They think minis are all peaceful and mild - and let them turn into spoiled, nasty twits at times. I am happy that you have yet to encounter one like that. They're out there.

I have handled breeding stallions on Thoroughbred and Warmblood farms. One Dutch Warmblood was 17 hands of idiot - his owner thought it was "cute" the way he roared off the trailer and reared and struck out and tried to grab you. I was the lucky one who got assigned to him. He found his manners with quiet, firm and fair handling. Do I like using a chain across the gums for control on such a hot, aggressive horse? No - but I am not going to let that horse be a dangerous, obnoxious jerk, either. Once he had his boundaries set, his personality began to change and he no longer needed anything more than a chain over his nose for breeding. Another Standardbred stallion I worked with was an evil beggar who would happily take your head off. I NEVER handled him without a chain over his nose and a dressage whip in my hand. I never had to use that whip - but he knew I had it. Strangely enough, I was the only person he trusted and liked.

A stud chain used _correctly and fairly_ in the right hands is just another tool that can be used if needed... like a twitch, a crop, a driving whip etc. Just a quiet reminder.

But all that being said, I have no idea why you would need one to teach a young horse to lead... but as the OP was rather vague, I am not sure what was going on...


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## txminipinto (Sep 24, 2010)

A stud chain or bit for that matter, will not cause a hard mouth. The hands that hold those aids will.

Anyone who watched the 2yr old B stallion class at Nationals in 2008 would see a perfect reason and horse to run a chain through the mouth. A client owned stallion was literally trying to eat me alive. Pinning his ears, striking, snaking his head, and trying to grab me. And he did. He was so bad that Roger Eitel asked if I was going to be ok. People in the stands were concerned for me as heard by my best friend. I stayed and survived the class but had to take my ribbon running backwards as this horse had full intentions of jumping on my back and knocking me to the ground. He was so aggressive he was screaming as he came at me.

This incident was one of many but definately the worst and he was gelded the following week. He's now a great gelding.

That said, anyone who gets huffy and crosses their arms declaring a training aid cruel is two things:

1) Uneducated: of the equipment, horse, and situation.

2) Not a real horsemen to understand and appreciate that all horses are different, have different temperments, and require different training aids.

I wish all of the horses in my barn were calm and respectful of human space. But some aren't and like others have said, I'm not going to get hurt and try to give that animal treats and kisses to change their behavior. They are not puppies or kittens. They will hurt you if they have the mindset to decide to.


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## OhHorsePee (Sep 24, 2010)

> Anyone who watched the 2yr old B stallion class at Nationals in 2008 would see a perfect reason and horse to run a chain through the mouth. A client owned stallion was literally trying to eat me alive. Pinning his ears, striking, snaking his head, and trying to grab me. And he did. He was so bad that Roger Eitel asked if I was going to be ok. People in the stands were concerned for me as head by my best friend. I stayed and survived the class but had to take my ribbon running backwards as this horse had full intentions of jumping on my back and knocking me to the ground. He was so aggressive he was screaming as he came at me.


Dang it girl! I could see how catch handling could present you with a surprise horse like that and it would be dangerous. I am surprised he was awarded a ribbon but manners in the ring is a different topic. Was the particular stallion not use to the ring or just nasty?

Here we do not use stud chains or anything that might be painful as a training tool. We use repetition. Repetition is the best training aid there is IMO. But with saying that I also have to say that everyone trains differently and has different capabilities of patience or time that they allow for the training. But we are all going to have our own way of doing things and I am glad that we can all be respectful of that.


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## Minimor (Sep 24, 2010)

> Anyone who watched the 2yr old B stallion class at Nationals in 2008 would see a perfect reason and horse to run a chain through the mouth. A client owned stallion was literally trying to eat me alive. Pinning his ears, striking, snaking his head, and trying to grab me. And he did. He was so bad that Roger Eitel asked if I was going to be ok. People in the stands were concerned for me as heard by my best friend. I stayed and survived the class but had to take my ribbon running backwards as this horse had full intentions of jumping on my back and knocking me to the ground. He was so aggressive he was screaming as he came at me.


That isn't something I'd be bragging about especially since--if I recall rightly, and if I've got it wrong then I apologize--this wasn't a catch handle as Fran suggests, but one of your regular training horses?

I wondered at the time why any trainer would continue to show such a poor tempered/poorly trained/poorly behaved stallion, regardless of what the client/owner wanted. It doesn't do anything for 1)the horse's reputation 2)the trainers reputation or 3)the breed's reputation


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## txminipinto (Sep 24, 2010)

You're right. It wasn't a catch handle but a horse that had been in my barn for 9 months. He had been shown previously by another well known trainer and was just as ornery.

Why did I continue to do it? Because just like Fran said, repetition. As a trainer, how would it look if I just threw my hands up and sent that SOB home? He came to me like that! Sent him home to a woman twice my age. He would have killed her. Plain and simple. Trainers are paid and work for clients. Most of the time we have to do what the client wishes even though we might think otherwise. I worked and worked that horse trying to establish that his behavior was unacceptable. Sometimes they are just rank. The client wanted to take that horse home after Nationals and that's when I put my foot down. I knew he was dangerous and for me to let her take him home where he would get the best of her would be unethical of me knowing his temperment. The horse, frankly, needed a straight jacket. The following week he was gelded. And he's been the best gelding.

I'm not sure how that comes across as bragging. Its not. I left that ring at Nationals in tears. Had to go to the trailer I was so upset and peeved off that he was getting to me and the better of me. And it wasn't just me. He'd eat anyone up. Bonnie Fogg even did a reading on him before Nationals and was very concerned about me. She said "Carin, he's evil. He has a black heart. You won't be able to train this out of him. He seriously wants to hurt you."

It just proves there are horses out there that need a little bit extra control. This particular stud was controllable with a chain in his mouth. But he was still testing you the entire way. If you are fortuante never to have to handle a horse like this then you are very lucky. He has probably taught me the most of what I'm willing to take on and willing to handle. My own personal stallion that I love is a bear during breeding. He's beautiful but I've decide its not worth the drama and stress and he'll be gelded in two weeks. We haven't used him much and even tried some different training with him this season. But the worry of him getting out and hurting another horse is not a responsiblity I want. We gave him a good 4 years to get control of his behavior in the ring and breeding shed. He just can't handle it. So he'll make a mighty fine gelding. But he's mine and I can make that decision at the drop of the hat. The client took some lecturing and encouragement from friends to get her to finally agree to cut the stud. I would have never forgiven myself if she hadn't because she wouldn't be here today.

But this really isn't what the OP was talking about. When training a young inexperienced horse to lead, a chain is not the way to go. Chains should be used in performance classes to help communicate the slight of hand and body position and with horses that are pushy on the lead. I never put a chain on a weanling. Not even in halter classes. They get introduced to the chain as a yearling and its an aid that's used as needed.


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## Psultan (Sep 24, 2010)

Here is the way I have seen it for years that I have been around and working horses and Ponies now.

PEOPLE screw UP HORSES and PONIES.....If they would take the time and TRAIN and WORK them you will have a Horse that will be grteat to be around for adults as well as for the kids.

Someone posted on here a Stallion would charge as she went in his space.... But then says she would have to use a STUD CHAIN cuz he would eat her up.... Firts how did she catch him if he is so mean and second after catching him they use a chain in mouth or over nose...... I would want to rip someone up after all that toooo.

What I have seen in the small equine is that people do not take the same time TRAINING them as the Large ones. I think it is do to they are smaller and people can push, shove and they think cuz (people) are bigger the little ones must listen and take the punches.


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## ~Lisa~ (Sep 24, 2010)

I do not use them as a general statement however I have. We had a 18 hand 4 yr old T/B in the barn who was the sweetest quiet Eq horse. Been shown well mannered easy going guy. I worked with him daily for a couple of years however he broke his leg one morning in turn out- actually a bone in his fetlock. He ended up fine but needed to be in 6 months stall rest with no turn out of course. After a couple of weeks he could be hand walked 2-3 times a day for no more then 5 minutes each time. Let me tell you what he was high as a kite. You can bet he used a chain over his nose- under his chin - in his mouth whatever it took to

A- keep this giant horse from landing on top of me

B- keep him under control so he did not re injure himself which could have dire consequences for him

I challange anyone here who has said they would never ever use one they did not need it to attempt to walk (without any blow ups that could shatter his leg) a 18 hand young T/B who really felt he was well enough to jump and leap and run. Not a mean bone in his body but that much time on stall rest can make even the sweetest horse untrustworthy.

By the way after a total of 6 months of stall rest and a few more months slowing bringing him back.. the following year this horse was back on the circuit as a top eq horse both on the flat and over fences. Nice feeling to know despite the bangs- bruises- and bites and risk of loss of life and limb during those last few months I was a part in bringing such a wonderful horse back and allowing him to have a wonderful and succsessful life and career.

They have their place I know people who say they would never use a crop or hit a horse either - sure most horses I do not need to do this with but yep some need a reminder every now and then.

Everyone chooses to discipline differently everyone makes choices as to what horses they can and will show - sometimes those who discipline with aids do so to a point of being cruel and sometimes those who do not discipline do so to a point of being cruel.


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## minih (Sep 24, 2010)

> That said, anyone who gets huffy and crosses their arms declaring a training aid cruel is two things:1) Uneducated: of the equipment, horse, and situation.
> 
> 2) Not a real horsemen to understand and appreciate that all horses are different, have different temperments, and require different training aids.
> 
> I wish all of the horses in my barn were calm and respectful of human space. But some aren't and like others have said, I'm not going to get hurt and try to give that animal treats and kisses to change their behavior. They are not puppies or kittens. They will hurt you if they have the mindset to decide to.







I know exactly what the person that started this thread is referring to.......

Here is a situation we went thru, we have a taller 2 year old miniature shetland that is not allowed to breed yet and most definately wants to. He is one of the biggest pets "on the farm". You get him to a show he wants to breed *anything* around, including the handler. There is no "getting thru" to him and petting him into submission. It is either get control or be badly hurt and yes possibly killed in some situations.

Do you use a twitch? It is no more cruel than that in my opinion.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Sep 24, 2010)

Psultan said:


> Here is the way I have seen it for years that I have been around and working horses and Ponies now.
> 
> PEOPLE screw UP HORSES and PONIES.....If they would take the time and TRAIN and WORK them you will have a Horse that will be grteat to be around for adults as well as for the kids.
> 
> ...


Oh...I guess then "NO" horse is ever just born mean. Is that really what you think? Like some humans are not just pure "mean"...their parents caused it "right"....or in the case of horses...it just had to be the handler or "lack" of training. If you truly believe this, then you just haven't been around the right horse. I am speaking of horses in general...lets just take the big and little thing out of this. As stated in my other post, I choose minis now "because" of their size and disposition. I don't use any type of chain, whip or even twitch unless absolutely necessary (which is rare). I don't have to bully the foals to train them..it just takes time an patience for the most part.

If you are going to quote the story of the mini stallion...then you need to get it right....the woman brought the stallion back here after he was pretty much "ruined" (actually the woman had bruises all over her where he had bitten her)....as a seller...even after a year of her "mishandling" and because I didn't want her to get hurt...I agreed to take him back and try to retrain....to answer your questions....I didn't turn him out in the pasture...I put him in a stall....I entered with a small riding crop and when he pinned his ears and came at me with his mouth wide open I slapped him on the end of the nose with the crop....then I put the chain in his mouth....with no tension....he was biting the chain and chewing on it (once again...diversion of his attention).....BUT...when he went to bite my leg...he quickly learned that "his actions" caused "tension" on the chain and that was uncomfortable to him (bottom line...HE was causing it NOT me). He quit both trying to attack me in the stall and trying to bite me when I was leading him. We worked up rather quickly to needing "NO" chain...I would pat him and reward him with kind words...He left here....to a "new" owner as a gentleman....and he still is to this day....not hurt...not mean.....just trained.

Like I said in an earlier post...some people have been fortunate enough to only encounter "nice" horses and there are others of us that have been around a bit more and have learned that there are all different kinds out there...as there are in humans, dogs and such. When you are in a position that it is going to be either you getting hurt...or you need to use a "training tool"...then the pros turn to the tools as that is why they were invented. Yes...lots and lots of the problems with horses are "created" by humans...you are correct about that....but you can bet that all of them aren't.

I don't look at tactful training as abuse...I look at starvation, neglect and several others things as such...but never good training.


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## Psultan (Sep 24, 2010)

I DID get it right..... The person you sold that pony to did acrew up the pony and was NOT born that way. Then you said you worked him and NOW A GENTALMEN....what do you call that.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 24, 2010)

1) Uneducated: of the equipment, horse, and situation.

2) Not a real horsemen to understand and appreciate that all horses are different, have different temperaments, and require different training aids.

Now _that_ is what I call a sweeping statement...and also exceptionally rude!!

I am not uneducated.

I am a real horse person.

I do not use stud chains and I am at present showing a two year old colt who does not always think with his brain!

I do not use a stud chain.

If I had a stallion that needed a lip chain (which I am pretty sure would be illegal here, anyway, and would most certainly not be allowed in the ring) I should geld him straight away.

I am quite capable of understanding the difference between the short term use of a training aid , and the long term use of the same thing, which would be abuse, not control.

I find the silly little chains that are fashionable in the ring today perfectly useless, and completely unnecessary 9 times out of 10, so I do not use them. They actually make control more difficult and they are not up to actually controlling anything, anyway, they break (and I have seen that happen at the most inopportune moments!) and the constant flapping and jerking of them that people do would drive me insane, let alone the horse.

I have handled horses and stallions all my life, some seriously large ones too, and yes, I have on occasion used a stallion chain to get their attention (otherwise they tended at first to overlook the extra bit of humanity flapping around somewhere near their kneecaps) but not as a long term "control" issue.

I would not use a bit on a breeding stallion as, even with the most experienced people and horses, far too much can go wrong, I preferred to rely on respect, training and manners.

I am halter training seven foals at the moment, there are NO situations in which I would ever consider using a chain on a foal, either under or over the nose or in the mouth, there are just no situations in which it is warranted....and, again, I have dealt with some pretty "hairy" foals, small, large and in between, in my time.


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## HGFarm (Sep 24, 2010)

Well said txminipinto- being married to a ranch hand for many years, I was exposed to horses off and on that 'werent very nice'- and I think the worst was bred by my own father in law out of a registered QH mare he had. She was bred to a stallion owned by someone else, and the stallion had a reputation for being a little 'hot'. Actually, my father in law ended up with two foals by this stallion and one was just a fruit cake (jumped off a cliff while being ridden and almost killed himself and my then husband)- he was just suddenly go nuts, like a light switch was turned on- and he was already gelded, LOL He almost killed himself a couple of times just from plain idiocy. One time jerked loose from one of the hands while the horses were being loaded on the trailer to go out and check cattle- a normal routine. Uh oh, there went the light switch and his head went straight in the air and he just ran blindly- into a barbed wire fence, which he tried to jump at the last minute. His top legs caught and it sent him butt over teakettle on the other side. He jumped up like it never happened- head still in the air and ran all the way to the other end of the 80 acre pasture he was in before he even started to come to his senses. Luckily, he was not hurt on the fence.

The other colt was just plain MEAN. He *hated* people from the start and never did come around. Dont go in his pen- dont turn your back on him- and dont go within reach. He was malicious, evil and lived just to see who he could attack next. He was just not right in the head, period. He ended up at the auction- he was an extremely dangerous horse. He spent some time at our place to be broke to ride and worked with. My husband was EXCELLENT and very patient with bad horses and could do more with a horrible horse than anyone I have ever seen- and this horse just wouldnt come around for any reason. I swear that horse had what I call 'red eyeballs', he was so mean. You can see it in his eyes. (He also had already been gelded- would have just hated to see either of them if they were not!)

Horses are lovely and beautiful animals, but not all are sweet, huggable and kissy faces- some would just as soon rip your face off. Neither of those horses above were ever abused, they were bred and raised by a knowledgable horseman, they had acreage to run in, they were not stuck in stalls to pick up bad habits- they just had, shall we say, 'personality disorders!'.

Depending on personality, some are just not going to come around, no matter how well they are raised or treated with kindness. Thank heavens these are less in population than compared to the rest of the equine world but they are out there and expecting them to tame down like Fury, Flicka or the Black Stallion is just dreaming.

That being said, I have NEVER, no matter what type or size of horse, EVER used a chain on a baby, nor found a need to, and have not used them often in life, even with stallions. Again in the show ring- like spurs, they may be there, but whether they are even used or not is another story.


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## tagalong (Sep 24, 2010)

> .If they would take the time and TRAIN and WORK them you will have a Horse that will be grteat to be around for adults as well as for the kids.
> Someone posted on here a Stallion would charge as she went in his space.... But then says she would have to use a STUD CHAIN cuz he would eat her up.... Firts how did she catch him if he is so mean and second after catching him they use a chain in mouth or over nose...... I would want to rip someone up after all that toooo.


Some on this thread are quick to make assumptions, ladle out judgement and point fingers - without knowing or caring about the situations and horses involved. *Psultan* - you have obviously NEVER dealt with a truly aggressive horse - or one with a black heart, as was said earlier. I have. Many of us have.

And what makes people think we did not use time and repetition with them? Or patient handling? Reward, praise - and correction when needed? The suggestions some have made that if you need to use a stud chain you must not be taking enough time or looking for a shortcut is insulting to me. I have never EVER turned to shortcuts... and I have handled people's rank breeding stallions (all sizes) and turned them into gentlemen - or at least a close approximation thereof. Without abuse. WIth patience, repetition and calm, firm and fair handling.

That Standardbred stallion I mentioned definitely had a black heart. He would come running to the gate to greet you with ears pinned. It took me a long while before he would let me put his halter on without trying to whip his nose around and bite me... but we sorted it out carefully over time. He got better - but you could never EVER take your eyes off him or completely trust him.



> I DID get it right..... The person you sold that pony to did acrew up the pony and was NOT born that way. Then you said you worked him and NOW A GENTALMEN....what do you call that.


I suspect that colt was born with a somewhat belligerent attitude but his owner had no idea how to deal with it. No doubt it was cute at first (like the way that KWPN stallion's owner thought of his 17 hand monster) but then it escalated as he grew and hormones were added into the mix... and he became rank and nasty. It took a FIRM and FAIR hand to deal with him - and even then he was a handful.

And it was appears that it was not the handling that helped him even after all that time but the GELDING.



> What I have seen in the small equine is that people do not take the same time TRAINING them as the Large ones. I think it is do to they are smaller and people can push, shove and they think cuz (people) are bigger the little ones must listen and take the punches.


I think that it works the opposite way most of the time - many minis do not get the same training as big horses because they are "cute" and "fun" and so they may be allowed to get away with stuff that you would never let a 15HH horse do. And that some mini owners have never worked with big horses and think it is okay to be walked all over, or even struck at and threatened. I have seen that many times.

Every horse should have the same manners - whether they are a 17 HH warmblood stallion or a 34" mini.

Is the chain the first thing I go to? Of course not - DUH. But it is there if it is needed. In the right way. With the right hands.

Not as a leading tool - I am still confused about the OP.



> ike I said in an earlier post...some people have been fortunate enough to only encounter "nice" horses and there are others of us that have been around a bit more and have learned that there are all different kinds out there...as there are in humans, dogs and such. When you are in a position that it is going to be either you getting hurt *or the horse(s) involved getting hurt and/or getting loose*...or you need to use a "training tool"...then the pros turn to the tools as that is why they were invented. Yes...lots and lots of the problems with horses are "created" by humans...you are correct about that....but you can bet that all of them aren't.



Well said.






I added the bolded part... because it is safety first.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Sep 24, 2010)

Psultan said:


> I DID get it right..... The person you sold that pony to did acrew up the pony and was NOT born that way. Then you said you worked him and NOW A GENTALMEN....what do you call that.


Training!!!! That's what I call it.

Tagalong...you and I have obviously "been there and done that"...

Sorry Rabbit...but I find nothing at all "rude" about the "facts" that were stated by Tagalong.


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## tagalong (Sep 24, 2010)

> Sorry Rabbit...but I find nothing at all "rude" about the "facts" that were stated by Tagalong.


Actually, *Carin* posted those "facts" - not me. But I agree with them while noting that they may not apply to _everyone_ posting here...

This thread is going much like any thread about twitching has gone... with some upset about how cruel it is and how more training would work and maybe even some kisses on the nose and how they would NEVER use one EVER, and others using it properly as a valuable tool when needed to keep both horses and humans safe....

One of the nastiest PMs I ever received was about the fact that I said I twitched horses when needed....


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## Windhaven (Sep 24, 2010)

This thread has been very interesting to read. All the different responses.

First off there will be come a time to use a stud chain, whether on the nose, under the chin or in the mouth, there will be a time. It all boils down to how it is used.

ANY method can be used to the point of cruelty. It again all depends on the situation.

Any training or handling method that you are not familiar with, you should seek out information, help and guidance on.

The point here is that:

All people are different.

All horses are different.

There are shy, quiet, laid back, energetic, loveable, standoffish, and yes there are MEAN people and horses and it is not all due to how they are handled.

What may work for some people WILL NOT work for others

Training methods that work on some horses, DO NOT WORK ON OTHERS.

Some peoples personality WILL clash with some horses personality.

Some horses will show/perform better for men then women or vice versa.

Some horses need a little bit of a firmer hand and if you are are a softer handed person you might have to use methods that when used don't not require heavy hands, stud shanks, spurs, harsher bits and so on.

Some horses can hate certain people and will always be bad or hard to handle for them.

Some horses are a ONE PERSON horse.

The list goes on.

I have dealt with many types of horses, from pleasure, harness racers, and adopted wild mustangs.

I had a horse, in my earlier years that was a good all around horse. Well one day something in her brain misfired. She started charging people and chasing them when they tried to cross her pen. We had had her for a few years and she NEVER did anything wrong until then. When she got close to you she would rear up and strike out with both front feet, wheel around on a dime and lash out with both hind feet, and then take off. When leading her in the barn she would rear up and knee you in the back. One time I lead her up to the stall and let her go in by herself and she lashed out the both back feet and caught me in the chest. Now I can tell you, while she was at my place she was not abused and this problem came out of nowhere. It ended as quickly as it started. She became almost a one person horse after that. She was mine. I could ride her with out a bridle and just halter and lead and go anywhere I wanted. I sold her a few years later and the lady that bought her could not handle her with the equipment I said to use and they had to go to harsher bits. I am sure due to inexperience but it also could be their personalities clashed.

I had a big yearling paint colt who would challenge me but was very controllable. You just had to be on your toes when working with him. I sent him to a trainer to condition and he said he was nuts and was going to hurt someone. I then had to sell him for different reasons and found out through the years that he was a handful for his new owners to and after breeding some mares they had to geld him. My methods worked with him but obviously many other peoples methods did not or again his personality didn't match theirs.

But my point here is, don't say all horses can be trained with the same methods and that you have never or would never use a certian method, because there might come a time when you come across a horse that just does not play by your rules or methods. Some times you as an owner have to think outside of your box to find what works best for you and your horse.

What every you do, don't every stop learning and think that you know it all and your way is the right way. Because it is then you will go no further and you are done.

Just my personal humble opinion.


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## minih (Sep 24, 2010)

Very good post Windhaven!


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## txminipinto (Sep 24, 2010)

These types of topics always get inflammatory because there are people who agree with it and people who don't for what ever reason for either party. Every time one of these topics comes up, I tell myself not to post but I always do because there is always someone who learns from it.

Nobody is going to change their mind and that is not my intent when I respond to these topics. My intent is to educate those who may not feel comfortable coming out and asking.

I'll throw myself under the bus and admit to using stud chains, twitches, and even sedating horses, when necessary, if it means I can keep control of the situation and create a positive lesson from it. Nothing is gained if I end up hurt and the horse is more stressed after the lesson. The horses in my barn that need stud chains do not object to them and even look for them when we halter them. Its just like bridling a horse to ride. I will say that MOST over time need less and less of the chain as they learn what is expected of them.


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Sep 24, 2010)

Tagalong...I "love" my horses...and have my entire life...they get 100% of me...that is why I spent my morning at Tractor Supply buying 200 pound 20% mineral tubs that had to be scooted off the back of my pick up (careful not so smash my feet)...then hurt my back rolling them into each run in shelter and barn...but by golly...I got it done. I just ordered six more round bales of hay today and am going to pick up 100 square bales this Sunday. Every horse his trimmed, wormed, vaccinated, teeth floated and has fresh water and care every day..forgot to mention grained twice per day. All of my extra money is spent on them..also lots of my time. Luckily they all appreciate it very much...I don't complain because I love them...but at times it feels like "human abuse"....LOL...all self inflicted of course, because I wouldn't have it any other way.

Now...just for a few points and then I am done with this...I have a "good" friend...a horse person and a darn good one...she doesn't post at all on LilBeginnings..her reason...lots of the people have never really had the experiences that she has had or had to handle things in different ways...and you will just get bashed and bashed and bashed. Well...to her credit...she is very much "correct"....I also reminded her that some folks on here have a lifetime of experience and appreciate reality....but then she reminded me that the one's that maybe have not encountered several experiences "outweigh" the one's that have...maybe she is right....maybe me not working presently causes me to be on here too much and I need to get a life...who knows....but all I can say is...no one will ever totally agree and that is that. I do stand behind my lifetime of experiences with horses and have found that 99% of horses can be managed without lots of things...but I have also met a few of the horses with "black hearts" like you say....great term by the way....they are out there and all I can honestly say is "really...I hope none of these folks encounter them...for their own sake"..I'm not referring to the "unruly" ones...I am referring to the maneaters.

I could start a big bash on the forum and say that I don't show currently because I think certain aspects of it is cruel....OMG...wouldn't they really be on me then. Okay...let me explain that comment to you...so "hopefully" I won't get bashed too bad for it....I like to "feed"...yes I know about founder...not happening here....but I cannot stand the thought of my horses being "hungry"....like the show horses have to be (at times)...is it really abuse....NO...but I can't rest if my horses don't have free choice minerals, fresh water and timothy hay....at "ALL" times.....so you see I can't even get past the "drawing them up" for the showing. LOL I would have to send them off to a trainer and have them just not tell me about that aspect of it. I had a trainer here last year...she looked at my horses and told me "realistically" it would take her three months to get their weight down to the perfect showing condition...but she also reminded me that she would much rather face that problem...than picking one up that it took her five months to "feed up" to condition.

OMG...can't believe I just posted that last paragraph because as we all know and probably will agree on...some folks don't read the entire post and surely someone will pick this up and run with it...before you do....NO...showing is not cruel...I commend all of you that do it.

Tagalong, sorry you recieved a bad PM on a previous post....that's too bad...twitches are also a useful tool in the hands of an experienced person. My point about a stud shank is that sometimes you can just put that in their mouth with no pressure and they chew on it and think of it as a toy, while you are doing something to them and it can even save you from having to use a twitch. I know that "you" know what I mean...it lays loose and they just "play" with it in their mouth...but it works wonders for diverting attention (sometimes). Oh well...enough said...someone sent fly traps to the White House too when the president swatted a fly on live television....but you know what...I kill flies every time I get a chance....possibly that makes me cruel too in the eyes of some.


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## Psultan (Sep 24, 2010)

tagalong said:


> Some on this thread are quick to make assumptions, ladle out judgement and point fingers - without knowing or caring about the situations and horses involved. *Psultan* - you have obviously NEVER dealt with a truly aggressive horse - or one with a black heart, as was said earlier. I have. Many of us have.
> 
> And what makes people think we did not use time and repetition with them? Or patient handling? Reward, praise - and correction when needed? The suggestions some have made that if you need to use a stud chain you must not be taking enough time or looking for a shortcut is insulting to me. I have never EVER turned to shortcuts... and I have handled people's rank breeding stallions (all sizes) and turned them into gentlemen - or at least a close approximation thereof. Without abuse. WIth patience, repetition and calm, firm and fair handling.
> 
> ...



WOW so easy to say this horse has (A BLACK HEART) if they screw up a horse or the HORSE is smatter then the so called Handler. I have been around unruly horses or (as you call it BLACK HEART) and they all have been screwed up by Handlers. You have even gave examples of owners/Handlers treated a stallion like a CUTE puppy till it GOT smart (YOU DID NOT SAY BLACK HEART) here is what you said.....

I suspect that colt was born with a somewhat belligerent attitude but his owner had no idea how to deal with it. No doubt it was cute at first (like the way that KWPN stallion's owner thought of his 17 hand monster) but then it escalated as he grew and hormones were added into the mix... and he became rank and nasty. It took a FIRM and FAIR hand to deal with him - and even then he was a handful.  NO secrete to handling/training a HORSE of any size or sex, Handle them, TRAIN them and WORK them 6 gays a week EVEN AS YOU CALL IT THE ONE WITH BLACK HEARTS. So called (MEAN) horses are so far and few. I will say that many have issues due to owners/hanglers not knowing how to handle them correctly.


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## tagalong (Sep 24, 2010)

> WOW so easy to say this horse has (A BLACK HEART) if they screw up a horse or the HORSE is smatter then the so called Handler. I have been around unruly horses or (as you call it BLACK HEART) and they all have been screwed up by Handlers.


And yet some truly have a switch that goes off... and are screwed up without any help from handlers. I only coined Bonnie's phrase - "black heart" for those who are truly dangerous. Not just for the rude and unruly.* There is a big difference.* If you have never had to deal with one of them, I am happy for you...



> YNO secrete to handling/training a HORSE of any size or sex, Handle them, TRAIN them and WORK them 6 gays a week EVEN AS YOU CALL IT THE ONE WITH BLACK HEARTS.


Please stop SHOUTING. It does not come across well. _Where did you get the idea that any of the horses we have been discussing were not worked with all the time?_

I worked with that Standardbred stallion every day for a year and a half - until the day he had a heart attack and died. I brought him as far as he was willing to go. He was never safe - and you could never let your guard down - but he respected that I was the boss mare. Not by cruelty but by horse sense and horsemanship. I worked with that mini mare every day for the two years she was here... quietly, consistently, without YELLING. She was only able to come so far- and no farther. And when she exploded, she did it big..



> So called (MEAN) horses are so far and few. I will say that many have issues due to owners/hanglers not knowing how to handle them correctly.


True - which is what many of us have been saying, Some need firmer direction and if they do not get it, the behaviour escalates. You do not keep the discipline at the same level but adjust as the horse realizes he cannot simply do whatever the heck he wants and you must be respected. Not out of fear - but quiet respect and understanding...


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## Minimor (Sep 24, 2010)

What I always find amusing on these threads is how some come across as feeling superior because they have "handled" these rank stallions that they've had to use stud chains on, and assume that those who don't use [or prefer not to use unless absolutely necessary] chains don't know much or have had little experience at handling a variety of horses, some of which are less than well mannered/well behaved. Perhaps they don't mean to portray that superiority, but it is there.

Someone--don't remember who & it doesn't matter, this computer is too slow for me to bother to go back & look it up now--states that obviously Psultan never handled a certain kind of horse. That person was talking about people making assumptions, but what is "obvious" to that person sounds like more of an assumption to me.  Some shouldn't assume, and yet others may assume whatever they like. No double standards are there? I have no idea what kind of horses Psultan has or hasn't handled but I have heard that he has a lot of horse experience. I wouldn't be too quick to assume anything there.

I stated that I haven't handled any rank stallions that NEED a stud chain, and nor do I want to. That does not mean I haven't handled some horses that probably would have had stud chains used on them had some others on this thread been handling them in my place. I too have gotten a stallion back from someone (a trainer--though I use that word loosely--no less). My lovely stallion came back a monster, deemed untrainable by that trainer. I was not pleased the morning I drove out to pick him up--displeasure gives me a heavy foot, I made the good 4 hour drive in 3 hours--walked into the barn, into the stall, haltered my stallion & led him out to the trailer with just halter & rope, no chain...trainer stood there watching with his mouth hanging open. At that point I had no idea what he expected the horse to do but quite obviously he expected something very bad--and I knew he was afraid to lead that horse out of the stall even with a chain on him. I think the horse was so happy to get out of there that he never put a foot wrong. At home I got some idea what that trainer had been expecting--the next time I caught him he charged at me full tilt, mouth open, aiming to grab me. I never hit him, but in 5 seconds or less he realized that he had messed up & wasn't going to succeed in terrorizing me, and in fact what was supposed to hurt me had hurt him instead. He backed off & never, ever tried it again. I never had to use a chain on him after that, never had to carry a whip and never had any problem with him. I trained him to drive that fall and when a friend of that trainer visited and saw this horse going in harness she was amazed. After what the trainer had told her about our horse, she never expected to see us driving him. That trainer would have said that stallion had the blackest heart of any horse he'd known, but in truth that black heart was intelligence....an intelligence level that was greater than that of that trainer.

I don't dispute that there are a few truly mean spirited horses out there, but they are not plentiful.


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## kaykay (Sep 25, 2010)

> What is other people's opinions on putting stud chains in horses mouths and yanking on them in general? Isn't it cruel? Can't another form of punishment be used? I'm just wondering why anyone has to do it? I feel really bad for horses that have to endure it because I wouldn't want someone to put cold metal that snaps harshly against my tongue. Just my opinion.


I have never put a chain in the mouth. I have put one under the chin but its usually only needed a few times and they are over it. I am really opposed to chains over the nose of minis as that bone can be broken pretty easily.

If used to train a young un trained horses than if not cruel its just not a good training practice. I was showing someone how to halter break foals the other day and I told them "This is this foals first experience with a halter and lead, make sure its a good experience!

I so agree that horses that have above average intelligence usually get in the most trouble, because they are so smart. Once you figure them out they are the best horses to own, but you have to understand what they are about, and you have to always be thinking ahead of them.

I so agree with Psultan that many times its bad handling not bad horses, especially when it comes to stallion handling. Too many think they are like small dogs and do not train them as a horse should be trained. Gosh I see it over and over and over. Problem is I can bring them here and retrain them but if they go back and they are not handled correctly again they revert right back to old habits.

Over the years here I have seen so many say that disposition doesnt matter as all minis have a good one. So not true. If I had a rank stallion he would never be bred. Or a mare for that matter. Disposition can be inherited or it can be made by bad/poor handling.

I think over the years I have seen it all from the untouched wild horse to the spoiled rotten one. They all come around eventually. Some take just a few days, some take weeks and the really hard ones take months.


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## Mominis (Sep 25, 2010)

"When knowledge ends, violence begins. Xenophon, 400 BC

Jerk should be a noun and not a verb around miniature horses. JMHO.


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## txminipinto (Sep 25, 2010)

As always an interesting topic. FYI, I happen to be currently at veterinary conference and sat in on a lecture over equine aggreession.

The use of a stud chain was addressed in HUMAN aggressive horses and techniques that were referred to in lecture to be acceptable included the chain to be run in the mouth or over the gum as needed.

Causes of aggression were covered including: pain induced, fear induced, and dominate aggressice behaviors. Dominate aggression was linked with human aggression as well as the others.

Just throwing that out there.


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## Psultan (Sep 25, 2010)

Mominis said:


> "When knowledge ends, violence begins.” Xenophon, 400 BC
> 
> Jerk should be a noun and not a verb around miniature horses. JMHO.


I AGREE 100%


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## tagalong (Sep 25, 2010)

> What I always find amusing on these threads is how some come across as feeling superior because they have "handled" these rank stallions that they've had to use stud chains on, and assume that those who don't use [or prefer not to use unless absolutely necessary] chains don't know much or have had little experience at handling a variety of horses, some of which are less than well mannered/well behaved. Perhaps they don't mean to portray that superiority, but it is there.


Talk about making assumptions...





I (and others) share those tales not out of acting superior but simply sharing experiences. Acting "superior" never even crossed my mind but thank you for assigning motives where none were intended. *And no, I have never used a chain** unless absolutely necessary** - contrary to what you suggest.*



> That does not mean I haven't handled some horses that *probably would have had stud chains used on them had some others on this thread been handling them in my place.*


More assumptions... _and you know this how??_ Wow.



One could almost say that ^ was said with an air of "superiority".



You seem to suggest that some of use them all the time - which is not the case. Gee - I guess I should have used a chain on that tall, leggy, goofy two year old Shetland who reared up, forgot that he knew how to lead, and acted like a jerk (noun) yesterday!!! _An opportunity missed!!_ Sorry to disappoint - we worked through it quietly (on my part) and consistently - and he remembered that he actually could lead, stop, back, turn both ways and go in and out of his stall without plunging through the door like his tail was on fire.... not a chain or a whip in sight.

And if you actually read my last post, maybe you would see that I agree that bad handling contributes to the issues a horse may have - and that quiet, consistent training will fix that in time. I also agreed that the truly "black hearts" were few and far between...

I guess I should know better - after all these years on this forum - than to share past experiences...







> Too many think they are like small dogs and do not train them as a horse should be trained. *Gosh I see it over and over and over.* Problem is I can bring them here and retrain them but if they go back and they are not handled correctly again they revert right back to old habits.


I agree wholeheartedly, *kaykay* - and said much the same thing earlier. They are not Pomeranians, they are horses!


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 25, 2010)

I'm still trying to recover from "three gays a week" (I consider that a trifle excessive but hey, whatever floats your boat



)

I do not think there is any need for the amount of defensiveness, nor the apparent aggression being bandied about on this thread, the OP queried the use of stud chains in the mouth, I am not even sure if that would be legal here, but there you go, it most certainly would not be considered acceptable.

I have only ever experienced a truly "black hearted" horse once in my life, I am very glad to say, but I can tell you, Psultan, it is terrifying.

I can assure you that, when faced with 16.2hh of _very_ aggressive Irish Draught mare, the first thing that you ask is not "Oh, what made her that way?" the first thing you ask is "How the HECK do I get out of here alive????"

Nor did we stop to consider why she was doing it, nor did we try a stud chain on her top lip. We had her shot.

A bit extreme? Possibly but we did not wish to hear, at some later date, that whoever had bought her form us, thinking, no doubt, that they would be bound to succeed where these two soft and tiny women had failed, was found dead with their heads kicked in. We did what we considered to be the responsible thing, the _only_ responsible thing, to do.

I am afraid this tends to be my approach to most _real_ aggression in a horse. If it is a stallion, first line of defence is to geld. If this does not clear it up and the horse is not responding to firm but consistent training then I do think it should be put down.

The world has plenty of very well conformed, very well behaved horses in it already, and putting an animal down, quietly and in your own field, does not actually hurt it in any way, nor does it frighten it.

Both of which can easily happen to the animal that you find you cannot, in fact, handle, and so pass on to someone else.


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## Psultan (Sep 25, 2010)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I'm still trying to recover from "three gays a week" (I consider that a trifle excessive but hey, whatever floats your boat
> 
> 
> 
> ...


WOW I AM SURE GLAD YOU SHARED THIS WITH US. That shows me REAL HORSEMANSHIP and I HOPE you do NOT have any Children that may disapoint you as they grow up.

And this statement I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND from anyone. I am sorry for you as a person. Your Statement here in BLUE.

The world has plenty of very well conformed, very well behaved horses in it already, and putting an animal down, quietly and in your own field, does not actually hurt it in any way, nor does it frighten it.

That is all I can say about this post as I may get in BIG BIG trouble here.


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## midnight star stables (Sep 25, 2010)

Without reading many other posts, I would personally never put a stud chain in a miniature or shetland ponies mouth. I think the mouth and head is a very sensitive area.

I don't think that I would ever use one on a large horse either, however I do not work with many bull headed horses, so I can not speak for other peoples actions. I believe in discipline, but also respect.

In some cases, strong tools, such as the stud chain in the mouth may be necessary, but IMO it should not be the normal. I limit the times when I even use a stud chain over/under the nose.

But that's just me.



I would speak up if I seen something that I felt was abuse.


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## tagalong (Sep 25, 2010)

*Rabbit* - it was actually SIX gays a week. I pondered about that as well.







> And this statement I CAN NOT UNDERSTAND from anyone. *I am sorry for you as a person.* Your Statement here in BLUE.The world has plenty of very well conformed, very well behaved horses in it already, and putting an animal down, quietly and in your own field, does not actually hurt it in any way, nor does it frighten it.


*Psultan* - the part I bolded was uncalled for - and reminiscent of PMs I received in the past about twitches.





It is a sad reality that not all horses can be reformed -_ and in some very extreme cases euthanasia may indeed be the kindest thing you can do for the truly troubled and disturbed._ I have never had to do that and I hope to never have to - but I was not in *rabbit's* shoes and did not know the extreme behaviour of the mare involved... so I cannot condemn her decision. One that was likely very hard to make.


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 25, 2010)

Hmm. well. Psultan, we can all get personal and make mean remarks, except that it does nothing for your credibility as an adult.

You are, I am guessing not an adult?

Whatever, it is not really all that relevant, as we have a number of really sensible young people on this forum who are, actually, very capable of an adult conversation.

*stands back with fingers in ears waiting for the next rant*





The fact is that putting a dangerous animal down is just one of those things that, regretfully, you have to do every now and again, and bears absolutely NO relationship to anything you would consider doing to a human being, perhaps when you are older you will be able to understand this.

Putting the mare down was the _responsible_ thing to do.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Sep 25, 2010)

Wow, this has gone ALL over the place.





Personally, I've learned never to say things like "I would NEVER do..." or "Never will a horse of MINE..." because you only end up looking like a fool and feeling heartbroken when you actually find yourself in one of those situations you said you would "never." If a horse, I don't care what breed or for what reason, is dangerous enough to seriously harm someone, you'd best do something about it because, in Rabbit's case, what if that horse killed a child down the road, or was sold to someone who was "sure" their techniques could change that horse. Well, what if that's not the case? I don't know Rabbit personally but I've been around this forum long enough to know she's knows horseflesh and horse minds. If she says the horse was going to kill someone, then I believe it would have and I support her putting it down. Why in the heck is that cruel??? It's painless, and takes less than a split second. How is that worse than that jacked up horse living in constant anxiety and ready to hurt someone?

People, I love all animals, but I've also seen enough to know not all animals are good and not all the bad ones are that way because of humans. Just like people, animals can have physical or mental issues that impact their behaviors. So we shoot the people? Of course not, but we're not talking about people, we're talking about horses. Nutty people don't often weigh 1000-2000lbs and have the muscles and strength to bash your head in with their hooves!





Where in the world did the common sense go?


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## Mini Gaits Farm (Sep 25, 2010)

This post certainly has gone all over the place Parmela...your are so right. I posted an experience earlier about an extremely "mean" horse that I had encountered...hoping that possibly it would make "some" aware that you never know as long as you are dealing with equines, just what you might encounter. Never say that you would never used the stud shank in the mouth to protect yourself, because someday you may come across a horse that you just have to handle this way. I did not post my experience to act "superior" to anyone...it was just one that I thought was worth sharing.

I went back to read the OP again and it wasn't really only about mini's..it was about a stud shank in the mouth in general. The horse I encountered was very capable of "killing" someone. He mauled people and when he did it..it was more like a pit bull with numerous bites...hanging on and shaking people. He meant to kill..no doubt. I saw it with my own eyes. I was a single mother..needed a job..so I worked for this trainer...it was not my horse..just one that we all had to handle when it was our turn...and you just better figure out how to live through it.





A few points about this particular horse....

He had eyes like I will never forget...they actually sunk back into the sockets a little and they were "always" glaring.

He was always treated with the utmost of respect..never yelled at, hurt or disrespected.

He was an intact stallion...but never bred up to that point.

He was physically "sound"....no bone chips old fractures, injuries or anything.

He won his fair share of races...not a stakes horse but a good solid "allowance" horse.

He was dropped in for $25,000 and "claimed"...very sadly I am sure...for the new owners.....but our barn threw the biggest party ever



...don't worry the new owners were warned....but I can't help but wonder...just how many people he hurt in his new home.

I will end in saying....that I "love" my minis....this is why I have them...they are wonderful..my 11 year old grandson can handle "any" of them that are here. I don't worry for my family's safety. My stallion "Hello Fire" is the smartest and kindest horse that I have ever owned (big or small)...you go out...call his name...he runs to you..puts his head into the halter and you can do anything you want with him....to me...this is priceless!!!

Would I euthanise a horse like the thoroughbred if he were here on my farm today..... "absolutely".. I wouldn't think twice about it. Why would I take a chance of passing that nightmare onto someone else and how....just how could I live with myself "knowing" that someone was most likely to be mutilated or killed?

Do I feel superior because I encountered this horse....not at all...I was just a broke, young girl needing a job. But it did make me aware that these kind "do" exist...most thankfully a very small minority of them do anyway.

And it also made me realize that you should never say never on using any piece of horse equipment....there could be a time when your life depends on it.


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## HGFarm (Sep 25, 2010)

Sherri, you have seen the look that I am talking about- to me, the eyes are the windows to the soul. This is what I refered to as 'red eyed' look. Not meaning bloodshot or something wrong with them- it was the hatred, pure and simple- that never left the eye. Black hearted, red eyed, what ever you want to call it- I have seen a couple of horses in my life that I swear were the spawn of Satan- and thank goodness they are few and far between.

For those who have never experienced the pleasure of being attacked or even just bitten by a vicious horse- when horses bite, they do not bite and release- they bite and pull- so whatever is in their teeth when they yank their head away is coming off with it.

I had a friend in high school who was nearly killed by her own mare one day- she was leaning into her tack box to look for something and the mare reached down and grabbed her by the back. It tore a bunch of muscles out of her back and that girl was never the same- even after surgeries. This was a mare this girl had owned for years and the mare was never abused and had never done anything like this before. It was just a random act of grumpiness or something- I would hate to see a horse on a full blown attack with feet, teeth, etc.. with the PURPOSE of terrible bodily harm. And yes, it is terrifying because whether in a box stall with one or out in a pasture- guess what? There is no way you are going to get away.

There is a time and place for everything, and I agree to never say never when it comes to experiences you may come across in life. As a training aid, teaching to lead or general use would I use a chain in the mouth? Heck NO- but sometimes in some situations the key to survival is that you may have to resort to something you would not ordinarily do.

Mini Gaits, glad you lived through that one because I know JUST the kind of horse you are talking about... and it's scary.


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## tagalong (Sep 26, 2010)

> Mini Gaits, glad you lived through that one because I know JUST the kind of horse you are talking about... and it's scary.


Yes, it is. Another one I met in passing - although I never actually worked with him myself - was also a TB stallion. He shared a lot of these characteristics as well...



> He had eyes like I will never forget...they actually sunk back into the sockets a little and they were "always" glaring.He was always treated with the utmost of respect..never yelled at, hurt or disrespected.
> 
> He was an intact stallion...but never bred up to that point.
> 
> ...


Except I think this one had a couple of stakes wins to his credit.

He had that look... that steady, cold, haunting glare. He had injured a few grooms and a stablemate (he went after that horse when they were working on the track together) before the trainer sent him to my friend to be rehabbed. And after a week with that horse, my friend who could work with anything and had reformed many horses in the past, called the trainer back with his honest evaluation. He said that the horse was not fixable and that nothing could overcome the issues he had and it was only a matter of time until he killed someone. He needed to be gelded to see if that would help - and if not, then euthanized. The owner balked because the horse was royally bred and could still make $$$$ on a stud farm - but the trainer prevailed - he was gelded and later put down as being a gelding did not change his behaviour in any way...

It was nice to see common sense prevail over $$$$$. And sad to see a horse that disturbed...

And I did not relate any of that ^ to be superior in any way...





_edited to remove horse's name_


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## Genie (Sep 26, 2010)

A gentleman in this area was trying to help a stallion which had tangled it's leg in a fence while trying to attack a horse on the other side.

The horse grabbed the mans' leg in his teeth and after about a year of trying to save the leg, it had to be amputated.

I have seen the "look" that HG Farm posted about.

I had a farrier helping me with a riding horse and he said "Genie, you have to get rid of this horse because she is going to kill you". She was an appie mare that would be fairly normal one day and "wild eyed" the next.

She had "Impressive" breeding which I was told would often produce some sanity problems and had never been handled up until she passed one year of age and I was stupid enough to buy her.

I don't like seeing cruelty, for the sake of being cruel...no one does, however, even the miniature horse could hurt me if it wanted to, so I am going to protect myself using whatever practice is needed for that particular animal.

Every horse that lives here today is perfect and a joy to be around but I have had a few that were annoying, over the 20 years we have been in the "horsie business".

My observation is that the horses who have not been very happy on Nixons Hill have been horses that their previous owners never handled. I guess they were still "wild horses" in their head.


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