# Color experts? Is this colt a buckskin? Grulla? Smokey Black?



## barnbum (May 16, 2009)

If he was a buckskin--wouldn't those legs be getting to be a darker shade? I don't even see a shadow.

He's too dark to be a silver.

Chloe has had one silver buckskin and one regular buckskin before Tucker. Sire is a bay.

He's 15 days here.












No signs of him going gray.

Strong dorsal-yay!


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## shelly (May 16, 2009)

:wub Very nice looking colt...he looks grulla to me!!


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## barnbum (May 16, 2009)

Shelly--that's what was suggested when his arrival was announced, but I didn't know if that meant grulla buckskin... or is grulla just grulla? See why I need help?


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (May 16, 2009)

hmmm wonder if he could be a silver grullo?

He's got the dorsal, ears look black tipped in the one photo.. I found with my silver foals that it took longer for the darker points to come in, and if he is in fact silver they won't be as dark as a regular grullo..

Also read on this site Dun Factor Markings (who are quarter horse breeders who "specialize" in duns) and they mentioned that they have noticed on many of their silver grulla foals have had a bluish tint to their eyes..


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## barnbum (May 16, 2009)

His eyes are quite bluish--but more in the sunlight.

Is grulla for fillies and grullo for colts?





Thanks, Cristina--going to read it now.

Does anyone have photos of grulla/o for me to see? This is a new color for me to grapple with.


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## kaykay (May 16, 2009)

He doesnt look grulla at all to me??

I still think he could be buckskin. I know here ours dont get the dark on the lower legs almost until they start shedding the foal coat. We had a bay once that didnt get the black lower legs until he was almost 2 months old. Now if hes a silver buckskin that will dilute the lower legs and they wont be as dark


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## ohmt (May 16, 2009)

I'm gonna say smokey black--sorry, but he's not grullo. I've had two colts born about that color...well one was born very creamy buckskin actually-after his first shave his hair grew back and he looked like your guy. now he's pitch black with brown around his muzzle. I can almost guarantee that you're little guy will shed out black but has the creme gene.


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## barnbum (May 16, 2009)

Overall, he's darker than Chloe's other two foals--so could the dun part be doing that?

Kay--you are the one who told me you could see the shadow on Blessing to tell she is a buckskin (and how right you were!)



--so I keep looking on Tucker--and I don't see it.

Smokey black? I've never heard of that! No need to aplogize--I like him no matter what color he is!





Goodness--how can color be so confusing!





Grulla?

Buckskin?

Smokey black?

Any other ideas?

Will the real color stand out when he's older? Just how much older?


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## Skylight_minis (May 16, 2009)

Wow that is a confusing one. I've had 2 grullo fillies. They were born with black faces and the dorsal thats the tell tell sign of being grullo. In the pic of the dorsal it does look like the squirrely grullo color but in the other pic he looks too chocolate. My grullos change colors through the year they go from the dark grey to a dark chocolate. If you go to my old website and look at Tika she's grullo pinto and Grace is also a grullo pinto. Tika is in her natural coat and Grace is body clipped. Hard to tell but grace is more dark grey and Tika's more chocolate in the pics. http://www.geocities.com/skylight_minis/Mare2.html

The real name of the color is Grullo but for girls they usually use grulla. Its not the same as buckskin. Grullo is a black dun. Buckskin is a diluted bay. Two totally different genes and totally different colors.

The dark legs can show up much later. had a buttermilk buckskin he didnt have darker legs till he was a yearling. He had a light smudge on his knees and at the cornet bands but as a body clipped yearling his lower legs were dark chocolate.

The blueish color eyes is just baby coloring. I've seen foals of all colors with the dark blue eyes they darken up.

I would be tempted to body clip this boy just to see what the color is.

I had a colt last year that looked just like a blonde palomino but i knew it wasnt possible with his parentage. I body clipped him and found out he was silver dapple.


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## Mona (May 16, 2009)

I would say no to grulla and say he is a brown buckskin.


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## minimule (May 16, 2009)

Karla I don't think he is a grulla. From what I've been told, the "gender" doesn't matter in color........

Here are a couple of true grulla photos for you to see

Tommy in fuzzy coat






body clipped






One of his sons body clipped






I think your boy is a shade of buckskin, maybe smutty....but he does seem to have a dorsal stripe.


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## barnbum (May 17, 2009)

> Grullo is a black dun. Buckskin is a diluted bay.


Well--from parentage--buckskin makes the most sense, since his sire is bay. I've *always *thought his dam was dun, but she's graying out, so it's not so noticeable. She has a distinct stripe through her forelock still. But, she's a silver buckskin..so there's no place for black to come from? Tucker's face seems darker, but not as distinctive as the photos posted. Thanks for those!!





I emailed the person who created the website Cristina posted...maybe he'll reply.

I just want the correct color on his papers.


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## Jill (May 17, 2009)

I do think he is grullo or silver grullo _(I think grulla is the feminine form of the color.)_.

With the darker head, the dark dorsal... that is my hunch on his color. I own and have owned many of dun factored horses (red, bay, silver bay, silver buckskin, and black based) and feel for sure he's dun and since his color, to me, looks black based -- that would mean a form of grullo (silver or regular).

Have his eyes turned yet? Trooper (red dun born 4/29) still has those grey-blue colored eyes but I know they will change to dark... Sorta wish they'd stay though


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## Songcatcher (May 17, 2009)

barnbum said:


> Well--from parentage--buckskin makes the most sense, since his sire is bay. I've *always *thought his dam was dun, but she's graying out, so it's not so noticeable. She has a distinct stripe through her forelock still. But, she's a silver buckskin..so there's no place for black to come from?


Maybe I'm mis reading this, but yes, there is a place for Black to come from. The Bay sire is Black + Agouti. The Silver Buckskin dam is Black + Agouti + Cream + Silver (+ Dun?) + Gray. A color test for Cream and Agouti would give you the answer.


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## barnbum (May 17, 2009)

Freeland--I know nothing about color, so thanks for those equations.




When I've played with those "what color could the foal be?" sites, black never came up as a possibility.

In 2007, both foals arrived wearing the colors the site said would happen more than 50% of the time, but this year is full of surprises. Of course, I don't know the exact color of the dam--as I don't know her parents; she was a rescue. It'd help if I did.

It's fun to have new colors show up every time.





I'll clip him in June--way too chilly now.


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## MiLo Minis (May 17, 2009)

My grullo colt was born looking like he would turn black but had a dorsal stripe and zebra bars. He was bluer/blacker than this colt as a baby. He now turns greyish blue with black points in the winter and is quite dark black/blue with blacker points in the summer. I don't think this colt is a grullo but is definitely a dun, quite likely buckskin.


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## Bunnylady (May 17, 2009)

There are only two pigments involved in coat color; red and black. Every animal starts with the potential to produce both. There is one gene that either allows the horse to produce black pigment, or pretty much shuts it down, so that the only color you see is based on the red pigment only. This is what people mean when they say a color is red or black based. There are a lot of other genes that determine how much pigment is produced, and where it appears, but the starting point is red/black. Depending on what other modifying genes are present, it might be impossible for two particular black-based horses to produce black-as-ink offspring, but that isn't what we're talking about here. They can produce some black pigment (Eumelanin), therefore, we refer to the color as black-based.

Bay, for example, is a black-based color. At the red/black location, the horse begins with a gene that says that yes, this horse can produce both red and black pigment. At another place in his genetic code, he has the agouti gene, which says that the black pigment will not appear on his body, only on the legs, mane, tail, and tips of his ears. Add the results of these two genes together, and what you have is a bay.

Agouti is only one of many genes that modify how much pigment a horse may produce, and where that pigment may appear. Your mare appears to be expressing a whole slew of modifiers. As Freeland said, a greying-out silver buckskin has:

Black - which gives the horse the ability to produce both red and black pigment

Agouti - which allows the black pigment to appear only at the points

Creme - a "dilution gene" that dramatically reduces the total amount of both pigments that a horse can produce

Silver - a gene that reduces the amount of black pigment produced, most noticeably in the mane and tail

Grey - A gene that gradually shuts down the pigment producing cells in the horse's skin, so that the hairs become colorless. Grey does not erase the rest of the genetic instructions, it just interferes with the ability to express it.

(Dun) - another gene that dilutes color, but has a very specific pattern of areas that are left darker (Tommy is a classic example)

When you add in the fact that foal colors can vary pretty wildly from the color of the adult coat, I ain't gonna even try to guess what color your little guy is!


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## ohmt (May 17, 2009)

Decided to come back and check out his pics again



I still really do not see the grullo...I'd put money on it that the dorsal is just countershading and he's gonna be smokey black...he's a cutie by the way!

It's always fun to see what color these little guys end up being...my favorite is clipping the yearlings. I always get a few that just blow my mind with their crazy color changing.


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## Meavey (May 17, 2009)

He is not grulla and not buckskin.

Black or smokey black.





Almost all foals are born with fake dorsals they disappear after shedding or clipping.


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## barnbum (May 17, 2009)

And the difference between black and smokey black is what? It is the sliver or creme added to dilute the black?

Some asked about eyes... here are some pics from today.











On the site Cristina posted, there are photos of four horses tails, and the viewer is supposed to guess which three are dun--the other is countershading. There's another picture with three horses, and two are dun. I couldn't guess either one.



They all look the same! The key was in how the dorsal moved into the tail. So, just in case anyone is an expert on that detail... here's his tail. I know clipped would help, but brrrr--he'd shiver.










The two new foals look quite similar--Tucker is darker with soon to be black mane and tail, while Mazie is lighter with soon to be flaxen mane and tail, but right now they look like twins at quick glance.



> Almost all foals are born with fake dorsals they disappear after shedding or clipping.


Now that I do know!



All of my foals have had fake dorsals at birth... this is my new silver dapple, who has a nice stripe, but I know hers will disappear.


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## kaykay (May 17, 2009)

After seeing the tail I agree that Dun could be involved here. Dang karla ya need to pull some hair on that mare and test her LOL. She carries too many color genes


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (May 17, 2009)

> And the difference between black and smokey black is what?


Smokey blacks carry the cream gene, blacks do not, but there's no physical difference in appearance so only way to know is to pull hairs and test for cream..

Ok, so what if he's simply a dunskin? It's already been said that a few have thought the mare to be silver dunskin that's gone gray, so possibly the colt is as well..


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## barnbum (May 17, 2009)

> Ok, so what if he's simply a dunskin? It's already been said that a few have thought the mare to be silver dunskin that's gone gray, so possibly the colt is as well..


Well--it was always ME who called her a dappled, flea-bitten, silver dunskin going gray... but everyone laughed. (Can you blame them?)




For me, it's what told of all she has.

I'll probably end up calling him a buckskin for his papers...or maybe I should wait until he's clipped and do a revote.


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## barnbum (May 18, 2009)

My farrier--big horse guy--came today-and when I asked what color Tucker is, without hesitating he confidently said "buckskin!" When I told him the forum ideas--he thought grulla buckskin.

Gotta share--first visit for the foals. I had them stalled and haltered. Mazie stood nicely--a little fight on one back leg--but that was it. Tucker was sleeping--not flat out, so he checked the hooves showing and Tucker didn't move. So, he gentely pushed him over and I scratched his belly--and all four hooves were checked with no fuss.



THAT was the easiest farrier visit I've ever had.



Neither foal needed anything this time though... I'm sure there will be more excitement in 4 weeks.


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## Bunnylady (May 18, 2009)

barnbum said:


> My farrier--big horse guy--came today- Tucker was sleeping--not flat out, so he checked the hooves showing and Tucker didn't move. So, he gentely pushed him over and I scratched his belly--and all four hooves were checked with no fuss.



LOL! This reminds me of what they told me about trimming babies' fingernails. "If you can, do it while they are asleep!" So-o-o much easier!


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