# Prefix-Farm Name-%%%%%%



## LaVern (Nov 27, 2009)

I am going to pick Buckeye for an example because I love Getitias horses. Okay- so I buy a Buckeye stallion and a Buckeye mare. I breed them and get a colt which I name Lucky Harts Super King. Is Super King 100 % Buckeye?

Now I breed Lucky Harts Super King to a Lucky Harts Maria Lover. And they produce a foal. Is that horse 100% Lucky Hart Horse? And pooff there goes Buckeye.

I guess what I think, is that the percentages should go on the horse itself and not the Farm name.

When I think of all the horses that I wish I had never put my farm name on.(100%ers) I don't put our name on anything that I don't like anymore. Really, I think this farm name thing is kind of nuts. Lucky Hart -Lucky Tart- who cares? It is the horse in the pedigree that matters. But I suppose I'll keep using the prefix for advertising because that is what we do.

I remember Mrs. Barett saying that she gave away lots of horses, but I don't know if she put her name on those or not.


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## bevann (Nov 27, 2009)

LaVern said:


> I am going to pick Buckeye for an example because I love Getitias horses. Okay- so I buy a Buckeye stallion and a Buckeye mare. I breed them and get a colt which I name Lucky Harts Super King. Is Super King 100 % Buckeye? Now I breed Lucky Harts Super King to a Lucky Harts Maria Lover. And they produce a foal. Is that horse 100% Lucky Hart Horse? And pooff there goes Buckeye.
> 
> I guess what I think, is that the percentages should go on the horse itself and not the Farm name.
> 
> ...


I am no longer breeding, but I did Minis for over 20 years and dogs for over 42 years.My prefix,KNOLLAC, went on every animal that I bred.I used it to indicate where the animal came from and hoped that people would identify that name as a sign of its origin and the integrity that went with it.Like you said, not every animal truned out as I had anticipated, but I hope people know that it was raised with lots of love and had excellent care , all its shots, and was well trained before it left this farm.I use a farm prefix in tracing pedigrees and to judge the integrity of the pedigree since I know that with some farm names it just may not be what is on the paper especailly from many years ago.


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## disneyhorse (Nov 27, 2009)

To me, farm names are pure ego and advertising. Sorry if that offends anyone.

I think the horse should speak for itself.

I absolutely LOVE breeds like thoroughbreds or hackneys, where a horse can be known as "Whirlaway" or "Swamp Gator" and that's it... you know who the horse is and it stands on its own.

The two foals I have ever bred, did not carry a farm name and had a single name as their registered name.

Even my colt, is registered in ASPR as "Aftershock."

Andrea


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2009)

On one hand you say this farm name thing what does it matter, and on the other hand you say you wish you HADN'T put your farm name on some of your foals and no longer put it on ones you don't like. Obviously your farm name means something to you. And it means something to others too. Lucky Hart is a well known name along with Buckeye and Little King and so on.....

Of course anyone, with any intelligence, knows that not every horse, from any farm, is perfect or a potential National Champion BUT certain farm names come with a good connotation and it is every breeder's dream to see their farm name gain that connotation - it increases the value of their stock overall. eg. your crap is better than some farms best.

Farms that very carefully linebreed and work hard, just as you have, to create, what is to them, the most desireable horse are proud of what they have accomplished and I see no reason to tear that down. I think it's kind of funny to hear both sides here - LaVern saying she will no longer put her farm name on anything she doesn't like and then Andrea who won't put her farm name on anything because she is proud that horse can stand on it's own merits. Neither is right or wrong and that is the beauty of being able to name your horse whatever you like! I do think though that years down the road people will remember that LUCKY HART What'shisname came from Lucky Hart and Aftershock came from I Don't Know What Farm. I guess it all depends on how many horses you have to sell.


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## LaVern (Nov 27, 2009)

Milo, can't you tell I am very confused, as usual? I spend so much time going back and forth I don't seem to get anywhere.

I just would hate see people riding on the lucky hart name when I am long gone -with some of the so called Lucky Hart 100%.that weren't the best. The horses in the pedigree come first to me and then the names of the farms that use them.


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## SampleMM (Nov 27, 2009)

I agree! I miss buying show quality horses without someone's name attached to them. I have a few I'd like shown but

am I helping my farm or hurting it as all my horses have other people's farm names. Perhaps I should just wait until I

have a foal with my farm name on it?


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## Karen S (Nov 27, 2009)

Renee,

Here is the Story on Audrey Barrett and her breeding farm with the "Aernosa" prefix:

The Arenosa Pony Farm Story

by Scott Uzzel

The story of the famed Arenosa Pony Farm started in 1941, when Audrey and Clinton Barrett first came to Victoria, Texas. At that time, most of the local cowboys had gone into the military, leaving the ranch work to the women, children, and those too old for the draft. Audrey, a former Miss Arkansas Ranch Girl, had owned a riding academy in Arkansas and was an expert horsewoman. With an outstanding string of cow horses, she found plenty of work on the local ranches. Children of friends and neighbors were always asking Audrey to ride her saddle horses, which she did not allow. A couple of grade ponies were purchased to occupy these area children. Later some mares were added to raise a few foals to help defray the cost of keeping the ponies. Arenosa Pony Farm was born.

The lives of many Victoria area children were enriched through Audrey Barrett and her Arenosa Shetland ponies Several local children who were headed down the wrong path were righted by the efforts of Audrey and her mission to introduce youngsters to the joys of working with Shetlands. Over the years, Audrey worked with hundreds of children, sometimes as many as 20 at a time, with some being as young as two years old.

“During the summer months, the parents had to come out here to visit their children,” Audrey said.

* People often wonder where the Arenosa name originated. At one time the Barretts were going to raise ponies on a farm owned by Mr. and Mrs. J.E. Readding, along Arenosa (Spanish for dry) Creek in Victoria County. That plan did not develop, but because ponies had been entered in several shows under the Arenosa banner, the name stuck.*

In the late 1950s the Barretts began acquiring nationally known show ponies for their breeding program, including Richardson’s C-Jo Topper, a “Top Ten” harness pony and son of the $56,000 C-Jo’s Topper. Others included Atkinson’s Hillswicke Dark Fancy, by Hillswicke Oracle; Richardson’s Pete of Fable Stables, an under 40” son of six-time national grand champion Curtiss-Frisco Pete; Supreme’s Gold Nugget of Royal Crescent, a son of the $85,000 Supreme’s Bit of Gold; and Fran R.’s Althea Cody, a national futurity winner by Silver Mane’s Frisco Cody.

Many other royally bred Shetlands entered the Arenosa breeding program, as the Barretts sometimes purchased entire herds of ponies from breeders who were dispersing, keeping the best and culling the rest. Some of the top foundation stock came from Mrs. Lloyd Richardson of Aransas Pass, Texas, who let Audrey have first pick before dispersing her ponies.

Over the years, however, the Arenosa name has become synonymous with one illustrious Shetland sire: Kewpie Doll’s Oracle 27889A. Foaled in 1950, this exquisite 39”, black and white stallion was sired by Hillswicke Oracle 24491A, one of the breed’s most influential sires, and a national champion in hand and harness.

The dam of Kewpie Doll’s Oracle, Streamliner’s Kewpie Doll 25066A, was the greatest model mare of her time, winning the blue at the National Shetland Congress in 1948 and 1949.

Dr. E.S. McClelland, Aledo, Illinois, purchased Kewpie Doll’s Oracle at the Perry Carlile Sale in 1954. When McClelland dispersed his Shetlands in 1956, the sale catalog offered the following excerpt about Kewpie Doll’s Oracle:

“Irregardless of their likes and dislikes, everyone who has seen this pony has kind words for him. He leaves a lasting impression that few can equal ... With a natural spring to every stride, Kewpie has the greatest pair of natural hocks we have ever seen. Without benefit of training, he literally ‘boxes’ with his hind feet.”

On a bid of $5,100, Kewpie Doll’s Oracle went to E.C. Adams, Sr., Blue Springs, Missouri, where he enjoyed a successful show career in model and fine harness classes. But it was in the hands of J.A. Stovall, Era, Texas, who owned the stallion from 1959 to 1967, that Kewpie Doll’s Oracle came into his own as a sire. From 1961 through 1963 his get dominated the hand and group classes at the Congress, thanks primarily to the 5-G Pony farm show string owned by J.W. Griffith, Longview, Texas.

From Stovall’s, Kewpie Doll’s Oracle went to Bob Reinhardt in Louisiana, then to Texan Buck Bucheit, who presented the stallion to young Nancy Barrett as a gift. While at Arenosa, Kewpie Doll’s Oracle sired many top ponies, including the sorrel and white stallion, Kewpie’s Topper of Arenosa 128828A, the sire of many champions in both The Classic American Shetland and Miniature Horse divisions.

“He certainly had the ability to transmit quality,” Audrey Barrett said of Kewpie Doll’s Oracle. “To see him move was a joy to behold. He passed that down, too.”

Kewpie Doll’s Oracle passed away at Arenosa in 1973 In addition to Kewpie’s Topper of Arenosa, he left behind another famous son in the Arenosa stallion battery, Kewpie Doll’s Diablo 84342A. Diablo was bred by J.A. Stovall, and was described in the 1961 Stovall Production Sale catalog as “the most beautiful stud in the sale.” Diablo was purchased by J.W. Griffith and joined the vaunted 5-G show string. Edna Kratz, Mesquite, Texas, bought Diablo at the 5-G dispersal sale in 1964, and exhibited the sorrel and white dynamo in under roadster classes throughout the Southwest.

The Barretts bought Diablo in 1969 for Nancy to show, with the stipulation that he never be sold. Throughout the early 1970s, Diablo amassed wins in the roadster stake at San Antonio, Dallas, and Pin Oak on the old Southwest circuit, defeating several national champion road ponies along the way.

With this caliber of show ponies in the stallion battery, one would expect the Barrett’s breeding program to gain national prominence. But the Arenosa program went beyond that, gaining international recognition, and becoming the leading exporter of Shetland Ponies in the United States for several years. Arenosa Shetlands have been sold to Canada, Germany, Israel, Mexico, Guatemala, and other Latin American countries.

The Latin American market proved to be especially lucrative during the 1970s, when the Shetland market was at its lowest ebb in the United States. Over a period of 20 years, Senor Perotti of Guatemala, an importer of fine livestock from Europe and the United States, imported dozens of Arenosa Shetlands. His son of Diablo, Painted Indian, was named grand champion stallion of Central America at a show in Honduras. Arenosa Shetlands were also owned by the mayor of Monterrey, Mexico, and the president of Honduras.

At a time when crossbreeding to Hackneys was rampant in the Shetland breed, Audrey Barrett steadfastly refused to crossbreed. Instead, she intensely line-bred her ponies in order to retain as much closeness to Kewpie Doll’s Oracle as possible. The average size of the Arenosa ponies was 40”. However, many were small enough to be registered as Miniature Horses, as well. Two of the better known Arenosa miniatures were the many-times-champion F.W.F. Charro of Arenosa and Juana Machete of Arenosa. Three Arenosa animals were entered in Volume 1 of the American Miniature Horse Registry Stud Book, all with their Shetland pedigrees intact!

During the 1980s, Audrey rejected several lucrative offers from prominent Miniature Horse breeders to buy her entire herd of Classic American Shetlands.

“I couldn’t imagine living my life without Shetland Ponies,” she said. “I tell them that they don’t have enough money to buy me out. The ponies bring me more pleasure than the money ever could.”

Arenosa was at the forefront of the Classic American Shetland movement that began in the early 1980s. When the first annual National Classic American Shetland All-Stars were announced in 1983, three of the top five stallions, three of the top five mares, and two of the top five pleasure driving ponies were Arenosa owned and bred. Kewpie’s Gabriella of Arenosa 132389A was the first National All-Star Champion Classic Mare. Kewpie’s Topper of Arenosa was the Reserve Champion Classic Stallion.

At the 1992 annual meeting of the American Shetland Pony Club, Audrey Barrett was inducted into the ASPC People Hall of Fame, a fitting tribute to a lifetime devoted to raising the finest in Classic American Shetland Ponies.

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"Aernosa" isn't a bloodline.....it's a name just like our farm names....go back and look at all of those stallions and mares listed in the pedigress. You will see lots of differernt breeders, just like today, we all "stick" our farm names to our horses. This lets people know who and what we are breeding...it's our tradmark. I work with the Spit-N-Image and Michigan lines....but that is just it, a name of a particular horse that was bred on that particular farm or by a particular person. The Aernosa isn't any different. I will give Ms. Audrey credit as she did put the Classic Shetlands on the map with her breeding farm and she did have some very nice ponies to boot but to say it is 100%, 75%, 50%, and so forth is really nothing in my book. A Grandson or Granddaughter is about as much as it can be for once you get past the third generation it is diluted by that time. A horse is 100% no matter what it is bred to unless you breed it to a donkey or zebra, then you have 50% donkey and 50% horse.

Karen

Karen


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## LaVern (Nov 27, 2009)

Was heading out the door and thought of this also. What if those horses that I feel are worthy of my "know it all approval" and farm name now, look terrible to me ten years from now, as the AMHR breed of miniature horses is improving so much, so quickly. Oh the dilemma.


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## MindyLee (Nov 27, 2009)

Sorry...

but if I bred it, I am proud to put my name on it!

You cant pull out a crystal ball and forsee what the future holds for your foals! And their all super cute when born and look correct unless something is very noticable!

I have 3 foals so far: expecting 3 in 2010:

2006= Bravo's Little Kahper Jack (Kahper)

2008= Silver Maples Like A Rock (Chevy)

2009= Silver Maples Zahara Supreme (Zarie)

2010= Silver Maples ?

2010= Silver Maples ?

2010= Silver Maples ?


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## Sue_C. (Nov 27, 2009)

LaVern said:


> Was heading out the door and thought of this also. What if those horses that I feel are worthy of my "know it all approval" and farm name now, look terrible to me ten years from now, as the AMHR breed of miniature horses is improving so much, so quickly. Oh the dilemma.



I read years ago, that they didn't think much of Buckeroo as a weanling/yearling either...and from his pictueres, he really wasn't much to write home about. Unless you are willing to keep them all till they mature, so you can REALLY tell what they will be...I would put their "proper name" on them all, and hope for the best.

Myself, I am sort of between Disney, and Lavern. I do not think much of farm-name prefexes either, but DO always use a portion of the sire's name as a prefex. (Only time I didn't was a filly born of a mare bought when already in-foal.) I too want my horses to speak for themselves, but I do want people to know where they came from.


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## Joanne (Nov 27, 2009)

bevann said:


> I am no longer breeding, but I did Minis for over 20 years and dogs for over 42 years.My prefix, KNOLLAC, went on every animal that I bred. I used it to indicate where the animal came from and hoped that people would identify that name as a sign of its origin and the integrity that went with it. Like you said, not every animal turned out as I had anticipated, but I hope people know that it was raised with lots of love and had excellent care, all its shots, and was well trained before it left this farm. I use a farm prefix in tracing pedigrees and to judge the integrity of the pedigree since I know that with some farm names it just may not be what is on the paper especially from many years ago.


I agree with what Bev Ann said.

The prefix or suffix will not make me buy the horse, but if I know the line and like it, I will look more closely at the horse. This works in reverse as well.

Alternatively, if the horse is named with no prefix or suffix, I think the person did not care enough about that horse to "sign it" with their farm name.

If you have been breeding for several years you finally may have a time when your pedigree has sire, dam, and foal with your farm name on it. It takes many years for you to be able to breed horses with your name on them. A bit of a sign to others that you have met your goals if you are doing it right.

We are always proud to add new horses from selected farms to our mare and stallion lineup and always give credit to those breeders for having created the horse we chose.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 27, 2009)

In dealing with big horses if you look at their magazines most often you dont see farm names. Instead you see their sires or famous bloodline in that name. It seems like when it comes to the miniatures we are total opposites and I just have to wonder why?

New people are coming in and I think its important that they know that they shouldnt look at farm names to buy horses or even sometimes bloodlines, you just got to look at the horse in front of you. If your farm name is famous tho it just means you are doing something right, perhaps its a sign of respect in this business. If you don't like the foal you produced sure you dont have to put your farm name on it but you can't avoid that foal and not claim responsibility for it. Thats just the way I see it.


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## ~Lisa~ (Nov 27, 2009)

Well not having a farm name at all has a lot to do with if you have a breeding program. If you do not have a breeding program it makes sense to just have a single word name. You do not necessarily care if years from now someone sees the name - Big Jim- and associates it with you and your breeding

Part of having a breeding program is marketing and in that light yes a farm name or prefix is very important part of that.


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## Dona (Nov 27, 2009)

I have *always* been proud to add "Kickapoo" to the names of horses we breed here. Sure, they may not all be National Champion "worthy".....but they are quality & champions in their own way. Those that may have not gone as far in the halter showring, can turn out to be superb performance horses, or therapy horses.....or yes, wonderful pets!

As time goes by....the ones winning in the showring now, may not be high enough quality to win in the future. I think that goes without being said....especially with how quickly the breed is improving! That doesn't mean I won't always be proud of the horses I've bred over the years.





To only put your farm name on the ones you "think" are worthy, is futile.....as you are never quite sure how they are going to turn out as adults. Be proud of them all!


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## ruffian (Nov 27, 2009)

A well known farm name will help make me look at a horse. Not to make me BUY the horse, but take a 2nd look. The more well known names, Little King, Reece, Windflight, etc - to me - can represent a good breeding program. So I put our prefix, which ISN'T our farm name (LOL) on our homebreds.

But the stars, which usually go by one or 2 names - Buckeroo, Patton, Echo, Destiny, Blue Boy, etc - have just as much attention getting power as a farm name.

So to me, a prefix or farm name Is important, and should be used - but that JMOO!!


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## lil hoofbeats (Nov 27, 2009)

I agree with Kickapoo on this one, i am proud of the horses i produce, all my not be National Champions, but they all are unique and worthy in other ways, yes, i am proud to be Lil Hoofbeats!!!!!!!!! And proud to see my prefix on many other websites!!!!!!!!


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## LaVern (Nov 27, 2009)

Yes, You guys a probably right, if you raise them you should give them a name. And I do register most, just not all with the farm name. But, when you want to be known for a certain look or type, the ones that do not fall into your breeding type are not going to help with establishing a reputation for that type.

I know that someone said, that they are all cute, when they are little, but I don't want cute.

Also, those that I am not crazy about, are the ones that I sell much cheaper, and sometimes if I hold off on registering them and the customer likes that look they can put their name on them. That might be the type they like. The parentage is still the same.

Even with the Rowbucks there were lots that didn't make the grade.

Still no one has helped me out with my original question.


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## ruffian (Nov 27, 2009)

"I am going to pick Buckeye for an example because I love Getitias horses. Okay- so I buy a Buckeye stallion and a Buckeye mare. I breed them and get a colt which I name Lucky Harts Super King. Is Super King 100 % Buckeye?

Now I breed Lucky Harts Super King to a Lucky Harts Maria Lover. And they produce a foal. Is that horse 100% Lucky Hart Horse? And pooff there goes Buckeye."

To answer your original question, IMO I don't consider the "farm name" as having any bearing on "percentages" when looking at a horse. If a horse interests me, I go the pedigree. Take "South Sea's Flicka (IMAGINARY HORSE) her sire is Pacific's Trigger and dam is Atlantic's Silver. To me it doesn't matter that she is "South Seas" beyond catching my attention with the name. I am going to look at her background to see if I am interested in more information. She would be 50% Trigger and 50% Silver, etc.

Hopefully I've made myself clear!


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## Minimor (Nov 27, 2009)

> In dealing with big horses if you look at their magazines most often you dont see farm names. Instead you see their sires or famous bloodline in that name. It seems like when it comes to the miniatures we are total opposites and I just have to wonder why?


Not all big horse breeds--Morgans also use farm prefixes. Having grown up with Morgans, I think prefixes are perfectly logical & normal!




I don't personally like using the sire's or dam's name in the name of the foal--I've seen names where people got (IMO) too carried away with that idea and it just ends up sounding foolish. I don't see the use of prefixes as being pretentious, or bragging, or egotistical...it's just the way it's done. It's nice to hear farm prefixes announced at horse shows--makes it easy to know who raised the horses that I see winning or like out there in the ring, it just makes it easier to know where to go for more of the same....or where to maybe stay away from if I don't care for the animals of that prefix. Hearings some generic names like Jetstream and Barney Boy doesn't give any one very much info.

Besides, having a registered prefix makes it a lot easier to name our foals with names that we like!!

I have to say that if I were getting too many foals that I wasn't happy with and that I didn't feel were good enough or "right" for my farm name, I'd have to take a long hard look at my breeding stock, and make some changes. Cut back, cull some animals, try some different crosses.


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## Jean_B (Nov 27, 2009)

Hey LaVern - Tara better come home soon and give your some diversions!! Been listening to that North Dakota wind whistling a lot lately, haven't you???








Besides, I know you love to hear that Lucky Hart prefix being announced at the shows....and if you bought the sire and dam.....it's still Lucky Hart breeding, right??!!


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## LaVern (Nov 27, 2009)

Hey Jean, Too many years of listening to that wind, that's it. Kids all got home Wed. night, all the relatives yesterday. Cooked two turkeys cause I couldn't decide which was better Butter Ball or JennyOs. Then I thought Oh, maybe some want ham, so did that too. Decisions are getting hard for me. Hope you had a good one.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2009)

LaVern said:


> Milo, can't you tell I am very confused, as usual? I spend so much time going back and forth I don't seem to get anywhere. I just would hate see people riding on the lucky hart name when I am long gone -with some of the so called Lucky Hart 100%.that weren't the best. The horses in the pedigree come first to me and then the names of the farms that use them.


Well what you've done so far as I can see seems to be working for you so if I were you I would sit back, put my feet up, crack open a bottle and quit worrying about it!




Some people go by pedigree, some people go by name, some people go by the horse itself and there are even those that go by the colour



Nothing we say or do is going to change that. I think you should keep in mind though that some of those "ugly" nameless babies can turn out to be pretty dynamite performance horses making a name for themselves in their own right that anyone would be proud to have their name on.


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## Katiean (Nov 28, 2009)

I don't know if this has been covered because I did not read the whole post. But, If I have 2 buckeye horses that both their paprnts came from different farms and have different farm names, then their foal would not be 100% buckeye. However, IMHO, if you see Buckeye on ALL of the horses on that foals papers that to me would be 100% Buckeye. Right? Clear as mud? Just my thoughts and just using Buckeye as an example as in the first post.


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## LaVern (Nov 28, 2009)

Oh, Good another day. Like Hart says, " What are _we_ going to worry about to day Ma?" If I could just focus my thinking toward trying to figure out how I could afford to go to Buckeye and get one of those Kid Lee horses, instead of worrying about silly things like farm name %s, I'd sure be better off.

MiLo- You're-- right sit down and take a load off-- also I guess I don't think there is such a thing as an "ugly horse."


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## Minimor (Nov 28, 2009)

LaVern, YOU go and get one of those Kid Lee SHETLANDS?






No way!


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## LaVern (Nov 28, 2009)

Ahhh, Geeee, Minimor, Now I gotta worry about that. - Keeping the race pure- But times are a changing. And, like Hart always has told the kids, bring home anyone you want, as long as they are not vegetarians.


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## Minimor (Nov 28, 2009)

I take it that Hart's rule for 'no vegetarians' doesn't apply to horses?



I'd be a little worried about having to find a carnivorous horse!!




Oh my goodness, I have to tell Mary Ann that Renee's going to get herself a Shetland.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 28, 2009)

Minimor said:


> I take it that Hart's rule for 'no vegetarians' doesn't apply to horses?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Now Holly, I am _pretty sure _a Shetland would be a vegetarian.......

and Lavern, I don't believe there are any "ugly" horses either, hence the little quote marks - not my word! I sure hope you aren't going to buckle under and jump on the Shetland bandwagon - I am a pure Mini breeder and consider you my hero (or heroine?) for the PURE Minis!!!


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## Minimor (Nov 28, 2009)

> Now Holly, I am pretty sure a Shetland would be a vegetarian.......






Well, I can say that ours all are! Thank goodness!


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## Katiean (Nov 28, 2009)

Minimor said:


> > In dealing with big horses if you look at their magazines most often you dont see farm names. Instead you see their sires or famous bloodline in that name. It seems like when it comes to the miniatures we are total opposites and I just have to wonder why?
> 
> 
> Not all big horse breeds--Morgans also use farm prefixes. Having grown up with Morgans, I think prefixes are perfectly logical & normal!
> ...


I used to raise and show Mini Rex Rabbits. My barn name was SageHills Farms so I had rabbits like SageHills Mini Cooper, SageHills Sandy, SageHills Silver Bell (a chinchilla color). Well, you get the idea. There were people that would brag on the fact they had SageHills rabbits in the pedigree of their show bunnies. Anything that didn't make the 8 week cut for the show string went to the local pet store. To put a barn name simply tells people where the animal came from. When I was in StandardBreds there were Farm names like Seafoam, Lumber, Hanover etc. Just telling people where the horse came from and that there was a good chance that it was a quality animal. Sometimes they are not. But IMO a farm name just gives a look at where they came from. No big deal.


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## Field-of-Dreams (Nov 28, 2009)

MiLo Minis said:


> Now Holly, I am _pretty sure _a Shetland would be a vegetarian.......



I dunno, you guys never met my filly....





Lucy


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## Minimor (Nov 28, 2009)

Aw, Lucy, she's just the exception that proves the rule.


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## LaVern (Nov 28, 2009)

You guys this gets funnier all the time. Kind of reminds me of my one room school house days. On real stormy days when we couldn't go out for recess we would play a game were the teacher would right down something and give it to someone and they had to whisper it to the kid behind them and then the last kid would say what he thought he heard and it usually was way off, but very funny.

The Forum is fun and I usually learn something or read something that makes me think. Thanks MaryLou


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 28, 2009)

Back years ago when I was a teenager I worked in a factory on a production line. My girlfriend and I had a hoot starting rumours. She would start one about me, totally made up and really silly and then we would see where it went or I would start one about her, again totally silly and WOW can people get carried away!!!



But it sure helped pass the time.


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## Versatility Farm & Training (Nov 29, 2009)

The purpose of a farm prefix is to let people know where the horse was bred, not to indicate actual bloodlines. I will not buy a horse based on its farm prefix, that tells me nothing other then where the foal was born. No offence, but if anyone buys a horse because it's 100% (insert farm name) they are ignorant. Look at the quality of the horse its self first, then show record (if any), off spring (if any) and then pedigree (horses, not farm names).

That being said, if I see an absolutely gorgeous horse, I want to know the farm prefix, so I know where to go to get a horse like it (especially if that particular horse is not for sale). So for example, since Buckeye has already been mentioned... if i see a horse I would love to own and know that its name is Buckeye insert name... and it is not for sale, I can then got to buckeye farm and say I saw this horse, do you have any siblings for sale, or would it be possible to breed to that horse's sire? If there was no farm prefix on the horse, I would not know where to look.

I put my farm name on all my horses. As someone else mentioned, some ugly duckling turn into swans, and some sawns turn into ugly ducklings. But a so called ugly horse may still make a great performance horse. A top horse now, my be a low quality horse 10 years from now, but it is still a top quality horse now, and will lead to the future top quality horse. I would not be ashamed of breeding a top quality horse now, that 10 years from now is no longer considered top quality. You can only breed one year at a time, you cannot breed for 10 years from now.

This allows people to know where horses I bred came from, and they can come to me to see if I have more horses of the same breeding/look/ability for sale or breed to the stallion that horse was by etc. I have several horses with my parent's farm name on them as when they were born I hadn't come up with a farm name for myself yet. This has caused a little confusion with potential buyers. I have had a few people see my horses, and then go to my parents to see if they have horses for sale of the same breeding, they then have to send them back to me and tell them that I actually own one or both parents. There's been a couple that I've shown with their prefix on them too, which is aggrivating to me as I am winning with horses that I bred, but it gives my parents farm the credit. Some people have asked me if the horse was mine or my parents and I have to explain to them that she has always been my horse and was never owned by them. I continue to show them as they are part of my herd and my breeding program, so it does boost my farm when someone wants one of their foals. But I am sure to put my prefix on every foal so that in the future when people see them they know where the foal was born and where to go to find a similar foal or breeding.

There also is no such thing as being 100% "farm name" bred. That farm would have had to create the horse, and then continue breeding it from its own herd.... no such thing. Same thign with line breeding, no such thing unless you can breed a horse to itself.


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## JennyB (Dec 1, 2009)

Versatility Farm & Training said:


> The purpose of a farm prefix is to let people know where the horse was bred, not to indicate actual bloodlines. I will not buy a horse based on its farm prefix, that tells me nothing other then where the foal was born. No offence, but if anyone buys a horse because it's 100% (insert farm name) they are ignorant. Look at the quality of the horse its self first, then show record (if any), off spring (if any) and then pedigree (horses, not farm names). That being said, if I see an absolutely gorgeous horse, I want to know the farm prefix, so I know where to go to get a horse like it (especially if that particular horse is not for sale). So for example, since Buckeye has already been mentioned... if i see a horse I would love to own and know that its name is Buckeye insert name... and it is not for sale, I can then got to buckeye farm and say I saw this horse, do you have any siblings for sale, or would it be possible to breed to that horse's sire? If there was no farm prefix on the horse, I would not know where to look.
> 
> I put my farm name on all my horses. As someone else mentioned, some ugly duckling turn into swans, and some sawns turn into ugly ducklings. But a so called ugly horse may still make a great performance horse. A top horse now, my be a low quality horse 10 years from now, but it is still a top quality horse now, and will lead to the future top quality horse. I would not be ashamed of breeding a top quality horse now, that 10 years from now is no longer considered top quality. You can only breed one year at a time, you cannot breed for 10 years from now.
> 
> ...


[SIZE=14pt]I a bumping this up because I want more responses to this question. [/SIZE]

LaVern I think the answer to you question is YES! ...a farm name means A LOT to a breeding program and I don't agree with you.

Versatility that there is no such thing as line breeding...why do you feel this way? There is in breeding, line breeding and cross breeding.

More opinions?

Jenny


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## Versatility Farm & Training (Dec 1, 2009)

JennyB said:


> I a bumping this up because I want more responses to this question.
> LaVern I think the answer to you question is YES! ...a farm name means A LOT to a breeding program and I don't agree with you.
> 
> Versatility that there is no such thing as line breeding...why do you feel this way? There is in breeding, line breeding and cross breeding.
> ...


I think you miss understood what I was trying to say, or I didn't say it how I meant it. I believe there is line breeding, but there is no such thing as a horse being 100% of one bloodline. The only way to be 100% of one bloodline is by breeding a horse to itself, which cannot be done.


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## Reble (Dec 1, 2009)

Versatility Farm & Training said:


> The purpose of a farm prefix is to let people know where the horse was bred, not to indicate actual bloodlines. I will not buy a horse based on its farm prefix, that tells me nothing other then where the foal was born. No offence, but if anyone buys a horse because it's 100% (insert farm name) they are ignorant. Look at the quality of the horse its self first, then show record (if any), off spring (if any) and then pedigree (horses, not farm names).


I agree with this statement, the purpose of a farm prefix is to let the buyer know where the horse was bred and by who?

Our farm prefix is an example.

Kavelman is our Name

and Belmore is the village we live in.

so our prefix is *Kavelbel *


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## JennyB (Dec 2, 2009)

[SIZE=14pt]I think we are mis-understanding what 100% means...Usually when someone is speaking 100% of any kind of horse or pony, they are speaking of specific line of animals, like with Arabians for example, there are 100% or straight Egyptian, Polish, Russian or a specific farm name which has specific lines such as Crabbet. Lady Wentworth started Crabbet Arabian Stud and she used individual lines that even to this day people "KNOW" that they are pure and 100% Crabbet which makes a BIG difference if you are breeding Crabbet bred Arabians. [/SIZE]

Yes a FARM name(pre-fix or suffix) are very inportant to many breeders. It not only tells them where the horse came from and who bred it, but what lines are behind those horses/ponies/minis if they have been breeding for 25+ years. If they know what they want in an animal, then those lines are very important to the long-time breeder or even the newbie who "REALLY" likes the looks of that animal. Many Farms have not changed their breeding programs at all or very much, so those animals are prepotent to the looks that those breeders have wanted to achieve. Then they use their Farm name to help in advertising their animals.

Again I will use the "Arenosa" ponies/minis to prove this point. Audrey Barrett didn't just use this and that and that and this and that in her breeding program. She saw, Kewpie Doll's Oracle and said, I want to breed that type of pony who had the looks, movement and disposition she wanted. She did not own Oracle long, but was able to attain what she wanted using two of his best sons, Kewpie's Topper Of Arenosa and Kewpie Doll's Diablo and then by breeding her best mares, specifically, Richardson's C-Jo Princess and a few other mares and she struck "GOLD" for a breeder and stuck with this group "without" using an out cross stallion. She culled vigorously and never sold a pony she didn't like, but instead gave them away to hundreds of children..which besides breeding the Best ponies she could was her second passion, giving children ponies to ride and learn good sportsmanship throughout her lifetime. When you are even in the show ring today, most can spot an Arenosa pony/mini. The Arenosa line is not perfect as there are NO perfect horses/ponies/mini's out there, but if something if pretty darn good, why mess with it



...You can ask other breeders on ponies if they recognize Royal ponies, Wa-Full ponies, Olney ponies..they will say YES!... They have a look, they breed true and their Farm name helps other breeders to know what they like and dislike.

What about the LTD Miniatures...Lisa knows what she has, continues to linebreed with her stallions and mares and gets the same look and more than not, the same beautiful overo coloring too. She also depends on that LTD name to help advertise her miniatures.

This doesn't mean that you or those breeders put their name on ever foal that is born..sure you will have culls and most times those culls are given away or sold without papers. People who have not  been in the business long don't often see what the long time breeders see. The new breeders might be going with what looks good to them at the time and the fab for the year and that is okay, but if you are in it for the long run 10-25-50+ years, you depend on that Farm name for many reasons.

So to answer your question LaVern if you bought a Buckeye stallion and mare, you bred them together and added Lucky Hart, is the foal 100% Lucky Hart..yes if Buckeye had been in your basic program for a number of years and my guess would be at least 10+ years of breeding. You could call the foal Lucky Hart bred because you bred the two Buckeye's together. You have had a breeding program for quite sometime and have used 2 main lines, Rowdy and Buckeroo and it says on your web site: "It took twenty years, three Rowdy sons, five Buckeroo sons and alot of culling to get where we are today."...you have a good program that you liked, but I don't know maybe something was missing, that extra pizazz...so you added an out cross stallion in American Express! Your foals are wonderful and have always done well in the show ring...so some have not lived up to your expectation with their Lucky Hart name, but more have and that is a sign of a GREAT breeding program



...Do I know what a Lucky Hart miniature is, looks like and where they are from- yes!!! and I also know what bloodlines you have been using successfully for many years... That means A LOT in your breeding program and you have worked hard for that recognition...so YEAH I feel that a Farm name means A LOT if your in it for the long run or you are really looking for that special look...whatever it may be...these are just my opinions and I feel very strongly about them.

If you just want to raise Miniatures or Shetlands or Arabians or Morgans for the show experinence of winning with the BEST you can find, then a 100% Farm name animal might not mean squat to you and that's okay too, but to breeders who are trying to improve the animals they are breeding and in it for the long haul and LOVE what they are breeding, YES their Farm name or the Farm names of the animals in the past are important and are needed to continue to breed what they like.

I incourage others to also respond...

Jenny

PS.. a little trivia that many people might not know...Audrey was "really" breeding for the "Kewpie Doll" line of ponies and not the "Arenosa" ponies. The only reason she added "Of Arenosa" to her registered stock was because they had planned on buying a Farm which had a "dry creek" through it which means "Arenosa" in Spanish. She had registered and successfully shown a few ponies with the Arenosa name, but the purchase of that Farm did not happen...she really did want her ponies to be just "Kewpie Doll" ponies, but then again why mess with something when it was working and has also continued to work 50+ years after she started...


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## Jean_B (Dec 2, 2009)

Ummmmmmmm..........you guys are so dog-gone SERIOUS !! This has been a hilarious thread to follow !!

LaVern needs to learn how to put smiley's in her posts so that people know when she is jerking their chain!!!!!


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## JennyB (Dec 2, 2009)

Jean_B said:


> Ummmmmmmm..........you guys are so dog-gone SERIOUS !! This has been a hilarious thread to follow !!
> LaVern needs to learn how to put smiley's in her posts so that people know when she is jerking their chain!!!!!


[SIZE=14pt]Jean hi, even if LaVern was jerking our chain don't you think that this topic was important, especially for new people coming into either Miniatures and/or Shetlands?[/SIZE]

Jenny


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## LaVern (Dec 3, 2009)

:BigGrin



:BigGrin Jean, How could you ever think that I would be taking light of such a serious topic? Name dropping? It is at the core of all we do as humans. It is what differentiates us from the lower species.

Whether it is our Gucci bag or or Cadillac car. It makes a statement about who we are. It is our ability to communicate and use our vocabulary to brag that sets us apart.

Riding a name-- I'm the Queen--(must confess) At the time I bought my first Buckeroo son from Lowell, the name Boone was just as prestigious as Buckerro. No one knew me, everyone knew Lowell. So after I had purchased Rascal, I called Lowell and offered half interest in Rascal- for one dollar. ( I still have that dollar.) That way I could tell people that we owned him together and make people think that if Lowell didn't want to sell all of him he must be a good horse. Luckily he was.

I told Lowell of my plan and he laughed.

I think we all do it and I guess whatever works. Whether it is double reg. shetland-mini, a double AMHA-AMHR, an Arensoa, an NFC, a Rowdy, whatever.

But, of all the names(farm names and blood names) in the miniature horse world, the one we ride off the most, must be, the little Buckskin stallion Buckerro. People often ask how much can a miniature horse carry. Well, Buckeroo has and still is carrying so many of us.

I guess that is all there is, when it is all said and done -your good name.

I hope I got those little yellow guys in the right spot.



:salute



:salute


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## Leeana (Dec 3, 2009)

LaVern... I never thought I would see the day you would think about venturing over here to Ohio and looking at some of these shetlands 





But you are right ... times are changing (or is that - people changing?)





I wish I had seen this post earlier ... its a hoot


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## LaVern (Dec 3, 2009)

:wink



:wink



:wink



:wink



Well, Leeana I feel like I must. There is so much that I think I could improve on the Shetlands if I could just get some Shetland mares bred to some good straight miniature stallions. You know, for the betterment of the pony. I feel it is my duty. Is there a button for don't shoot me.



:wink



:wink



:wink



:wink



:wink


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## JennyB (Dec 3, 2009)

LaVern said:


> :wink
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Maybe it should be for the betterment of the Miniature horses that you add new Shetland bloodlines, because lets face it all Miniature horses come from Shetland ponies one way or another. I think the Miniature horses have greatly benefited from the newer Shetland lines in my humble opinion....flame away





Jenny


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## ruffian (Dec 3, 2009)

LaVern said:


> :wink
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yep LaVern - that's why we breed to the miniatures - to IMPROVE the Shetlands.






:BigGrin



:BigGrin



:BigGrin OK OK - just joking - no flames, remember SANTA is watching!

I do think that there are horses and ponies that will improve either breed, and both registries have outstanding individuals.

But yep, I'm riding on poor ol' Buckeroo too!! Just about the only horses I have that don't have Buckeroo in their pedigree are those that only have one or two generations. And since we're not that far from LIttle King it's entirely possible that he's back there somewheres!!


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## LaVern (Dec 3, 2009)

Oh, No, Jenny You got it all wrong. The Shetlands and all horses came from miniatures. I gotta find the right little yellow guy.



:smokesmile:



He's my favorite.


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## ~Lisa~ (Dec 3, 2009)

LaVern said:


> Well, Leeana I feel like I must. There is so much that I think I could improve on the Shetlands if I could just get some Shetland mares bred to some good straight miniature stallions. You know, for the betterment of the pony. I feel it is my duty. Is there a button for don't shoot me.



OMG so funny and really off topic a bit.. but since all miniatures came from shetlands..then they already have the sheltland lines and now our miniatures(and really shetlands since there are no miniatures they are all shetlands) need so much improvement.. then I guess La Vern is right...we better start crossing those shetlands on those minis to start improving the ponies

Thanks for the huge laugh La Vern with of course a slight bit of truth mixed in for good measure



and yes by the way...






right back at ya.. pass the bag of chips and don't forget the diet coke and cookies any type of cookies and we can hang on the front porch and talk this stuff for hours

(and yes before anyone gets their panties in a bunch I own ponies)


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## Jean_B (Dec 3, 2009)

Oh my gosh...LaVern figured out the Smileys....and she is unleashed and running wild!!!! The Forum will never be the same.


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## MindyLee (Dec 4, 2009)

All I have to say is now that so many folks are getting into shetlands and shetland/miniatures, its harder to place at AMHR rated shows as all the taller minis place over the smaller ones. I for one wish there was AMHA shows here in Michigan so it dosnt feel like its a big waste of $$$ to loose to a taller mini in _most_ of my classes just cause the new fab is taller or the judges like shetlands better.


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## LaVern (Dec 4, 2009)

Yeah, it is tough to beat a taller horse, but if they measure in, it is fair I guess.

But getting back to the Prefix thing, I thought of something else.

Say, you *were* really proud of your farm name and felt you had accomplished something and you were getting OLD and FEBBLE and FORGETFUL, and knew in your heart that you could not do this much longer and you did not want to do it if you could not do right by the horses. And some young people came along and you sold or gave away the whole darn herd. Could you sell them or give them your Prefix? And would the Registries allow it? I know that other businesses sell their name.

That way they could be 100% (Farm Name) for a long time.



:unsure


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## barbiedoll68346 (Dec 4, 2009)

Renee,

You are NOT getting old and feeble, You have many years left to enjoy the horses. Maybe that Birthday Party at Nationals made you feel old, but you're not!!!!!!!!!!!!!!HA HA HA, Can't wait ti see you next year!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Barbie


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## MiLo Minis (Dec 5, 2009)

I'll tell you what infuriated me! At an A-MINIATUREHORSE-R sanctioned show I overheard the decidedly prejudiced towards ponies sanctioned presiding judge say to the steward of the day "There are sure some nice PONIES out in that ring!" In every class he judged the Shetland crosses from best to worst and the worst Shetland placed over the best Miniature every time whether he/she deserved to or not.

And to answer your question Lavern: Why the heck not? It's YOUR name to do with what you please. Oh, and if you're lookin' for someone to give it to there's gonna be a lineup!


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