# LINE BREEDING?



## weelovely214 (Jul 30, 2011)

I am new to the miniature horse industry. I notice alot of people kinda line breed... My stud colt is top banana top and bottom. Actually, his sire and dam have the same sire (half brother and sister). He seems fine, normal. Is this the usual? Can a half brother and sister be bred?


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## Lizzie (Jul 30, 2011)

You seem surprised that he's 'normal'? Could be you've heard a lot of myths about inbreeding?

He is very closely bred but being closely bred on a quality stallion, is not something unusual and is something many breeders do, to 'set' type. Inbreeding does not 'cause' problems! What it does do, is likely produce horses which appear much like the horse used several times up close, in the pedigree. That said, if the inbred horse is built on an animal with many faults, then the offspring very likely will have them also.

Inbreeding can also bring to the fore, hidden problems which the horse most used, might have hidden in his genetic background. It will show the breeder possible problems. But inbreeding doesn't 'cause' these problems - it just shows that they might be there.

All that said, responsible inbreeding on a top quality horse, should produce equally top quality offspring. Irresponsible breeding, whether inbred, linebred or outcrossed, most usually produce poor quality individuals.

Congrats on your new boy. Your colt will likely resemble Top Banana quite a bit. I have always liked TB myself.

Lizzie


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## MeganH (Jul 30, 2011)

I don't think she was asking if it was normal for him to be normal, but if it was normal for breeders to breed so close. Just the idea seems odd to people who don't have a lot of knowledge of breeding. That was a good question and informative answer!


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## JennyB (Jul 30, 2011)

weelovely214 said:


> I am new to the miniature horse industry. I notice alot of people kinda line breed... My stud colt is top banana top and bottom. Actually, his sire and dam have the same sire (half brother and sister). He seems fine, normal. Is this the usual? Can a half brother and sister be bred?



Hi and welcome! 





 

To answer your questions yes and no...Linebreeding and inbreeding can be done successfully if both the sire and dam a few faults. If they do have faults especially the same ones, this just actentuates<sp> 



 the problems. We have many of ours which are linebred and inbred and they turn out fine for the most-part. You will always get a piece of rotten wood in the wood pile no matter what you breed to what. It just happens and you just have to hope for the best.

 

Your colt is a paternal mating meaning the sires are the same. When you breed dams the same that is maturnal mating. Some people think both are bad. I feel that paternal is better than maternal, father to daughter, father to granddaughter, grandfather to granddaughter is okay, but don't like maternal or full brother to sister.

 

Depending on your colts conformation and his lack of faults you could successfully breed him even to a Banana daughter or granddaughter if you like those lines. good luck and others will comment too 





 

Hope I have helped some!

Blessings,

Jennyr


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## SampleMM (Jul 30, 2011)

*I feel that paternal is better than maternal*

Jenny,

I'm curious as to why you feel this way. I believe I've heard this in the past but for the life of me, can't remember why paternal is better.


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## Lizzie (Jul 30, 2011)

I brought this over from my Gypsy Horse forum. Maybe it will explain the importance of good mares.

Lizzie

I've been doing a bit of thinking and research again, on breeding, pedigree knowledge, inheritance etc. We have discussed here in the past, how incredibly important good *mares* are to a breeding programme, but I'm carrying this a little bit further here.

For generations, breeders of all kinds of animals, have often relied upon the knowledge of the male, when considering breeding. ie. His quality, get, pedigree etc. Many in the past, bred *mares* of poor or iffy quality, to superior stallions, with the thought that he was bound to produce always, quality offspring. Modern thinking and knowledge however, has told us that the mare used, is just as important as the sire. In some ways, even much more important.

Genetisists tell us that the fact is, that certain qualities inherited from DNA on the x-chromosome can ONLY be inherited from a mare. So down the line, the maternal granddam, grandsire and their quality, cannot and should not, be ignored.

We all know, that very horse has 2 chromosomes that determine gender.

A mare has two X-chromosomes, therefore a female.

A stallion (XY) has one X-chromosome and one Y-chromosome, therefore a male. When a foal is conceived, if the Y-chromosome fertilizes the egg, the foal will be male (XY) because it will then have an "X" from the dam and a "Y" from the sire.

If the sperm fertilizing the egg carries the stallion's X-chromosome, the resulting foal will be female - XX.

A mare, contributes one of her two X-chromosomes to her foals, both male and female but when a stallion gives an "X" to his daughters, it is the X-chromosome he inherited from his own dam.

His sons NEVER receive his X-chromosome, because he has given them (obviously) his Y-chromosome instead. However, his sons DO receive an X-chromosome - one of the X-chromosomes contributed by their dam.

And this gets even more interesting. One of those would have been inherited via the dam's dam, and the other came down the "X-trail" from her sire's dam.

Geneticists have determined that certain genetic material is carried on the X-chromosome, including that for the large heart, and intelligence. Most probably, there are many other genes passed down on the X-chromosome, many of which we probably don't even know about at the moment.

So now, understanding that certain superior qualities can ONLY be inherited from a mare, her expressed qualities and that of the maternal granddam and grandsire suddenly become incredibly import.


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## bannerminis (Jul 30, 2011)

Lizzie thank you for posting that. That is so very interesting. I am always amazed that some people will only look at the stallion and I think that shows just how important a good mare is to your breeding programme.

I would be slow to try linebreeding or inbreeding but I am curious about it and if I ever had 2 horses that I thought could be bred together it would be done weighing up the mare and stallion and then make as informed a decision that I could.


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## weelovely214 (Jul 30, 2011)

JennyB said:


> Hi and welcome!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Thanks for the answer! So I have a question.... My colt has a half sister (same Dam, different sire). They don't really look like one another. The filly took after her sire and my colt is a good mix of mostly his sire with a little of the mares look in him. Both have very subtle if any faults. Can the two of them be bred?


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## horsenut50 (Jul 30, 2011)

I understand line and inbreeding as I am not new to breeding or horses in general but what about the devistating results of doing this as has happened in other breeds? Such as Herda and HYPP in Quarter Horses, SCIDs in Arabians and PSSM in draft and light horse breeds. I'm sure more will pop up through the years as these have. My 2 year old stallion goes back to Boones Little Buckeroo six times on his topside. I will outcross this stallion when I breed him. Not that I am against this just err on the side of caution when I see too much inbreeding.


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## Lizzie (Jul 30, 2011)

You have every right to bring this up horsenut. However, we must remember that inbreeding didn't cause these things. They were there all the time. A perfect example is the silver problems associated with ASD in Rocky Mountain Horses. The first stallion who popped up with this colour and became famous, obviously had the problem. But to get more of the colour, his daughters, granddaughters and many on down the line, were bred back to him. Many carried the problem and bred back to him, a ton of horses in the line, showed up with it. Most ASD research has only been done on RMHs.

Now some say the all silvers can have ASD in any breed if homozygous silvers are bred to another homozygous silver. I don't agree. I have never known it to crop up in other breeds with silver colouring, any more than it crops up occasionally in any breed of any colour. And it has been seen in horse breeds with no silver in their background.

Also, we must remember that years ago, while we knew something was wrong, we didn't know very much about these genetic problems. So much easier today, to breed responsibly and test our horses for possible hidden problems. And therein lies the problem. It is the responsibility of breeders to know as much about what might lie hidden in their breed and lines as possible, before making the decision to breed. Sadly I see people all the time, proudly announcing on all breed forums that they are breeding their mares to such and such a stallion. When asked if they have tested for example, LWO, they have no idea what the person is talking about. This is why many problems continue to be noted, generation after generation.

Personally I'm not sure I want to see a given horse, showing up in a pedigree, a dozen times. However good he or she was/is, pretty soon there are so many alike pedigrees, that they become overly common and are not (I think) achieving anything.

Lizzie


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## weebiscuit (Jul 30, 2011)

I found this to be a very interesting and informative thread. I have never inbred or line bred, although I have given it some passing thought. I have a little filly that I thought would produce an awesome foal if bred to a gorgeous little stallion I have, but they both have the same sire, so I decided against it.

In my case, I understand the genetics fairly well, and I can see how one would want to keep reinforcing the desirable characteristics in a certain line, but on the other hand I feel that in order to produce hardier stock without inherent genetic problems, it might be better to cross horses that are not so closely related.

I am happy to see that perhaps my thinking on this is flawed, and it would not be as much as a problem as my brain tries to tell me it is. For me, it all goes back to the human race and the genetic pool. We know that in humans, when there is inbreeding, the results are often very undesirable, because there are sometimes genetic traits that may be recessive in two closely related people, but become expressive when they have a child together.

It's wonderful to learn new things, and to change one's way of thinking!


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## Jacki (Jul 31, 2011)

weelovely214 said:


> I am new to the miniature horse industry. I notice alot of people kinda line breed... My stud colt is top banana top and bottom. Actually, his sire and dam have the same sire (half brother and sister). He seems fine, normal. Is this the usual? Can a half brother and sister be bred?



In addition to our Miniature Horses and Shetland Ponies we also breed Modena Pigeons. We have had a great deal of success in the loft, we always suggest that our customers "Build a Family" or as it is referred to here "linebreed". It is common to breed mother to son and father to daughter in pigeons although I'm not advocating that for horses the concept is not much different. We concentrate on breeding birds with generations of the best qualities behind them, we keep the gene pool tight. I think that is what you are seeing in some pedigrees.

That said, another saying in the Modena Pigeons is "You call it linebreeding when it works and inbreeding when it does not"

Best of luck with your Miniatures and pedigree study!

Jacki Loomis


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## JennyB (Jul 31, 2011)

I LOVE all this information. I am not an expert by any means that is for sure, but I think I have learned enough through the years to hopefully make the right decisions in my breeding program. No matter if you know it all, I don't think it's 100% proof all the time. I believe though IF we were more knowledgable about this we would be MUCH better off. 





 

I am not sure why I feel that maternal mating is more dangerous than paternal, except that I have heard this all my life and have seen some horrible babies come from Mother breedings than any other, but with that said there are always exceptions to the rules. I know of many individuals who are a mother/son or full sibling cross who are fantastic. But I believe that in general you only get that great animal a few times and more often than not you get middle of the road to very bad animals. I did recently speak with a cattle genetic expert who has been working breeding cattle that have been tightly inbred and linebred for over 100 years! 



 ...I was veryyyy unsure of what he was saying. He claimed that the main reason people are not successful in breeding their animals is because they don't selectively linebred and inbred. He said when you have all the characteristics you want in an animal then continue to inbreed. When you have a bad animal dispose of it so no one can get their hands on it to breed with! 



 He said also that when you get that tight herd that you want, don't, don't outcross ever as you would be destroying everything!!! Needless to say like I said I had a hard time swallowing all of this and still do 



 ....I spoke with other cattle people and they are divided as some call him a genetic God which they will never leave and some call him a plain NUT! 



 My jury is still out concerning this man and what he says...

 

I do feel that inbreeding and linebreeding have help to cause some real problems with some horse breeds. I come from an Arabian background and so far they have 6 very serious diseases; Severe Combined Immunodeficiency(scid), Cerebellar abiotrophy(ca OR cca), Occipital Atlanto-Axial Malformation(oaam), Equine juvenile epilepsy and Guttural Pouch Tympany (GPT)..Those are BIG words and very sad diseases 



 ..They had thought it came from one stallion, Skowronek or another, Mesaoud or a single line from a desert bred mare and now another single line from the desert 



 ..who knows for sure! Arabians are not the only breed stricken, American Quarter Horse, American Paint Horse, American Saddlebred, Appaloosa, Miniature horse, and Belgian lines all suffer from one or more diseases. I used to research Arabian horse pedigree's and do handwritten pedigree's for clients and some horses went back to the same horse over 200 times!!! 



 ...but that is nothing some cattle lines go back to a single bull for thousands of times. Now that is really crazy so I guess I don't even know where to begin with genetics as I have just made myself even more dizzy and nauseous 








 

 

To answer the question should I breed my stallion to my mare and they have the same dam...well if it was me and I knew the background VERY well and these two had very little faults, I might breed them together. If I was new to the horse raising scene, NO...because there are so many semi to un-related individuals out there who are very nice that you can breed together and 99% of the time get very nice foals. Those are just some of my opinions on this subject which I have really enjoyed. I have learned some things and hope other continue to post so we can learn more 





 

Many blessings,

Jenny


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## supaspot (Jul 31, 2011)

I did read a study once that found inbred horses had a much higher incidence of still births , late term abortions and foals dying in the first weeks after birth from unknown causes , it concluded that more study was needed

I know very little about it but I do know it locks in good points as well as bad and although it has been done very successfully by well known breeders in the past we have to remember that in those days there were very few modern type miniatures to breed to, there are an abundance of good horses available now and dont see a need for it , I might be presuaded if a horse is EXCEPTIONAL .....anyone one that considers it should take a long hard look at the animals first and be honest with themselves


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## Minimor (Jul 31, 2011)

I am a fan of line breeding; in Morgans it is a very common thing & I have seen how well a line breeding program works when the breeder knows what he's doing. In Miniatures people always talk about how foals can be all over the map--full siblings that are entirely different from each other. Well, with line breeding--generations of it--you know what you're going to get from your breedings. (It does take more than breeding paternal siblings achieve this! That is a start, but it will take more than 1 generation to really set characteristics in your animals.) When you use a stallion that is heavily line bred you can count on his foals all looking very much alike, regardless of what mare he is bred to.

I've always been taught that when you are line breeding you do have to add in an outcross from time to time; this keeps your herd strong--I don't agree with the above cattleman's theory of only linebreeding generation after generation. When you have a herd that is heavily linebred, adding in an outcross will not ruin the entire program. I've seen too many breeders do it, with good results, to believe that is true.

I believe that line breeding is something that can improve the Miniatures, but only if people really know what they're doing when they decide to do it. You have to know conformation and you have to be brutally honest about your horses--because if you overlook a flaw or pretend that the flaw isn't there you are not going to succeed with your linebreeding program. Even if it is a minor flaw, you cannot gloss it over and pretend it doesn't matter--and when that minor flaw shows up twofold (or tenfold) in your foals, you must admit that it is there & then you must take steps to eliminate it.


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## Mominis (Jul 31, 2011)

Many years ago, I asked an old breeder, "What is the difference between line breeding and in-breeding?" He replied with a smile, "It's line breeding if it works an in-breeding when it doesn't."


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## Riverdance (Jul 31, 2011)

I have been breeding Tibetan Terriers for over 34 years and have had some of the top dogs in the country in the past. In dogs we call it a line. That dog looks like the "....line". I agree whole heartedly with the cattle breeder. When line breeding, one can get rid of bad traits, hereditary problems and stamp a certain look or motion. My dogs are known not only for their look, but their motion. The top breeder in England started their lines with my dogs and they brag about being known now for their dogs motion. I also know plenty of kennels who feel that line breeding is incorrect and are always outcrossing. There is no consistency with their dogs. One does not look like another and when they breed, they have no idea whet they are going to get. This includes heath problems. As a matter of fact, they have created new problems it Tibetans that did not exist 30 years ago.

The dam is the most important part of breeding. Take Secretariat for instance. A triple crown winner, he never did produce much in the way of a race horse, BUT.... his daughters sure did. Too manny Mini breeders feel that as long as you have a good stallion, you can breed it to any old mare. Because many Mini breeders ( or for that matter, any breeder) go after the get of the stallion winning today, they spend big bucks on that stallions offspring. Never paying attention to who the dam is and what she looks like. Then they can not understand when their prospect grows up, it turns out to be nothing much, often looking very much likes it's dam. Sure, it may win as a yearling, but a true test of quality is what the horse looks like as an adult. If it's dam was junk, then it is most likely going to produce junk. The stallion owner wants to make the big bucks in the first two years (or more) of a winning stallions offspring, because it will not be too long before people realize that the horse they bought is not all that great and not a good producer at all.

The more money a stallion owner has to promote their stallion, the more people they will get to buy his offspring. The more people they get to buy their offspring, the more they buy cheap mares to produce more offspring. More money for the stallion owner. Some of those offspring are going to do very well in the show ring, most will not. The ones that do, most often have a top quality dam. A correctly line bred dam, could turn out to be a gold mine as far as producing quality foals. (thought if this mare has been line bred based upon poor quality mares, you are not going to get the desired offspring). Also, if one line breeds over and over and over and over again to the same stallion with junky mares, the results could be disastrous.


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## sihri (Aug 1, 2011)

Yes half brother and sister can be bred together but I do not recommend it for the for the previously mentioned resons faults. The difference between inbreeding and linebreeding as far as I've been taught is: Inbreeding is the practice of breeding brother to sister(I do not differentiate between half or full, mother to son, sire to daughter. Line breeding is the practice of breeding family lines or strains it is based on the mares bottom female line the only pedigrees that I've been able to trace this back in are on purebred Arabians as from what I understand this was how the bedouin tribes recorded their horses pedigrees. I"ve tried to do this on my miniature mare unsuccessfully as I her grandam has unknown in her pedigree but I only use it as a tool along with other breeding tools. A horse can be a suprior individual ( phenotypically) but may not be able to produce as well or better than himself because he is (genotypically) weak. This is usually the case with outcrosses and It was recommended to me to breed a horse (outcross) back to eithier the sire or dams line. Your horse is inbred to his grandsires line and should be genotypically stong in producing the stregths and faults of that line.


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## minigrub (Aug 1, 2011)

sihri said:


> Yes half brother and sister can be bred together but I do not recommend it for the for the previously mentioned resons faults.


Sorry, maybe it is Monday brain, but are you citing faults with the practice or the actual Top Banana line?


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## bluerogue (Aug 2, 2011)

I believe Sihri is citing faults with the practice (that's how I read it).

I do line breed, but I will not breed anything closer than common grandparents. That's my personal preference. When it works, the results are worth it. When it doesn't, it can be heart breaking. However, I feel that by not breeding as closely, I am not running as big a risk at terrible outcomes. This also means that the types I am wanting to set take longer to set, however (more crosses will probably be required, since I am dealing with more distance from the original horse I am line breeding). And sometimes the wanted attributes don't appear in the foal. My breeding program is not huge, nor have I been breeding for a long time (my first born foal is now 6, and is the great-granddaughter of Rowdy mentioned below).

For example, I have 2 double Rowdy bred mares. One is a double great-granddaughter, and the other is a granddaughter and great-granddaughter. They are half sisters (same sire- a grandson of Rowdy). In their bodies, these two mares are built very similarly (correct, with good bone, and resembling morgans). But in their heads, they are completely different.

The great-grand has a gorgeous arab type head, somewhat dry, refined, dishy, and one of the most beautiful heads I've seen on a mini. Her mother has a beautiful arab type head, just not quite as nice as her daughters (but hers is dryer, she does have a longer nose though).

The sister (the granddaughter) has a much plainer head, and resembles HER dam (a direct Rowdy daughter), with her head being prettier, dryer, and more refined than her dams head.

So, the body type seems to have set, while the head type did not. Neither of these young mares has had a foal yet, but the grand is hopefully bred for next spring. The great-grand is scheduled to be bred in the spring to the same stallion her sister was exposed to. We'll find out how set their types are when they foal.

To explain a word I used: to call a head "dry" is an arab term describing the bone structure of a horses head. Dry heads have clear bone structure, with little "extra" flesh. These heads can also be called chiseled. They tend to have small muzzles, big eyes, and very noticable bone structure that can be clearly seen. Having a dishy head is not required to have a dry head. To see an example, google egyptian arabs, as the egyptian lines are well known for producing dry heads.


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## Minimor (Aug 2, 2011)

I would have to suggest that two distant crosses to a common horse are not sufficient to set any specific traits. you might get them, and you might not.

In order to set type I believe that you need closer breeding to the common ancestor and/or more than two crosses.

I have a pony mare whose sire and dam were both sired by the same stallion. Her maternal granddam is also the dam of her paternal granddam. In the remaining lines the same names appear at least a couple times. This is my idea of line breeding--and this mare looks exactly as one would expect her to look given her breeding; I don't know how many full siblings she has but I would expect if there are more they would look very much like she does. There are other ponies that are very similarly bred--different parents but same breeding in those parents, and they do look true to their breeding. That is the sort of line breeding that is required to really set traits in the offsprings.


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## sfmini (Aug 2, 2011)

We have an arab mare whose dam and sire are have the same sire and their dams have the same linage and this mare is gorgeous. There is an instance where it worked beautifully.

We are waiting on our first try at it with the minis, we had turned our two geriatric barren (we thought) mares out with SF Mahogany Bay who is the son of one and 1/2 brother of the other and wouldn't you know, both are heavy in foal and should be delivering any day. We did this knowing of course that it was a possible result, and are very happy as these are favorite mares with great qualities and we are very excited to see the results of these crosses.

Our vet is even amazed the one mare is in foal as she is 25 but she checked her last week and said all is well and mare and foal are in great shape. Obviously we will be keeping a eagle eye on her. Foal alert and cameras on both mares for sure!


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## bluerogue (Aug 2, 2011)

Minimor, as I said, it will take me years to set the type I want, given that I prefer to not breed close relatives. I did not say it was set now. My breeding program is still in it's infancy, and it would be ridiculous of me to say I'd reached my goals in one generation of breeding. I was using my girls as an example of the similarities one can get, as well as the differences that could happen when line breeding. One of my Rowdy granddaughters is a matched pair with my Buckeroo granddaughter, and they do not have similar breeding behind them. Yet, if you don't know them, you will not be able to tell them apart.


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## [email protected] (Aug 2, 2011)

A rule of thumb I was told in breeding - buy the best mares and breed them to a better stallion. I've always wondered reading both AMHA/AMHR studbooks you can have a stallion with a stellar who's who pedigree and a dam with unknown unknown. I want mares that have pedigrees (assuming conformation is correct etc) that are as deep and consistent in what they produce as a stallions.

To set a 'type' or look in breed you have to line breed or pedigree match. You won't set traits by random outcrosses but it does take dedication and time to get a trait/look/line set and to be known for that that 'look'.

Personally I do line-breed certain lines that have proven to work (Rowdy & Buckeroo definitely), but caution has to be the rule as it can enhance or pull out the weakness in a line. So you need to know your bloodlines and what you're trying to accomplish. Mistakes will be made though as Minis are still a relatively new breed and we don't have 30-40+ years of breeding to look at that is accurately DNA/PQ tested to know its correct. Heck we're still basically a height registry for now, so a 'type' hasn't been set. If you know bloodlines though you can often go to a show and pick out horses from specific lines.

But as to the OP's question, yes and no. I've bred half siblings and so far good results every time, but I don't do it as a rule (that is not my favorite cross).


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## rabbitsfizz (Aug 3, 2011)

I line and in breed- I always have, in Arabs, Welsh and now Minis.

It is just something I take for granted.

The day I get or see something that is "wrong" as a result of doing this with animals that are both sound and beautiful ( you cannot account for people just using the wrong animals!) I shall stop....


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## sfmini (Aug 3, 2011)

Last night our 1/2 brother/sister cross arrived and what a surpise he is. Not the color, but the markings sure are! Puzzling where this came from, their dam is a solid dun, the colt's sire is solid bay by solid bay, dam is solid silver bay with one blue eye by red roan.

So, this little guy made a splash into our world last night.







Sorry for the crummy quality picture, used my cell phone. Will get better shots when the weather clears. We have storms right now.


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## Minimor (Aug 3, 2011)

Splash is right--there must be a few white hairs on the sire or dam somewhere, since one must be passing on the splash gene that goes with the blue eye on their dam? Congratulations!

My pony foal born in January is the result of the mating of paternal siblings--both her sire and dam are sabino with enough white to qualify both of them for pinto registration. I wondered if we would get a lot of white & my mom was hoping not--she wanted solid red. She got her wish--the filly has a star & a narrow little strip, and that's it for white.


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## midnight star stables (Aug 3, 2011)

sfmini said:


> Last night our 1/2 brother/sister cross arrived and what a surpise he is. Not the color, but the markings sure are! Puzzling where this came from, their dam is a solid dun, the colt's sire is solid bay by solid bay, dam is solid silver bay with one blue eye by red roan.
> 
> So, this little guy made a splash into our world last night.
> 
> ...


Very Cute! Certainly looks Spash but could be LWO so test for that... Congrats on the gorgeous kid.

I only have one horse who is a direct line-bred filly. She is stunning and it is clear that the right horses make a great cross! I own three or four who a from farms know for line-breeding, though it does not show on their papers. LTD's overos stamp a pretty consistent look to their horses (whether they are coloured or not). Rock E, Ten L, Emrald Glen Farms, Buckeroo etc., all have horses that have a stamped look to them, and I'm sure some of that is related to line-breeding done right.

IMO breeding should be left to the knowledgeable, for the most part.


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## REO (Aug 3, 2011)

I've been wondering!!!

Would you breed the following 2 mares.........











To this stallion






If this stallion were the common grandsire of said foals?






Half siblings.


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## Magic (Aug 4, 2011)

I've only done linebreeding once; I had to really consider the pros and cons and scrutinize the horses involved, (and I was a nervous wreck) but it was a great success. The sire and dam were both by RSB Rowdy Sugar Buck, so were half-siblings, and the resulting foal was gorgeous. I would have repeated the cross but I sold the stallion.

REO, I think that the Lotto (Nort) get would cross very well with each other. You said they are half-siblings, is that correct? Though I haven't seen them in person, they definitely look very well conformed. You know your horses, if they don't have any flaws in common then I see no reason why you couldn't try it. Linebreeding is a risk of course, but all breeding is a risk. With nice horses like yours it has a good chance of being very successful, IMO.


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## Lizzie (Aug 4, 2011)

While I haven't seen absolute confo shots of any of them, I'd probably try the second mare but maybe not the first. This of course if all LWO testing was in place and ok to breed.

I must say I love the markings on the first stallion.

Lizzie


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## Riverdance (Aug 4, 2011)

REO said:


> I've been wondering!!!
> 
> Would you breed the following 2 mares.........
> 
> ...



I would as long as they are clear of the LWO gene. I think the second mare could go very well with him. They are of similar type.


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## HGFarm (Aug 4, 2011)

Here is a good article that explains line breeding - and the difference between it and IN breeding.

http://www.genecarrhorseranch.com/line_breeding.php

Yep, take a look at many of the Shetland pedigrees here, the Arabs, etc.... many have the same horses over and over in there... I think you just have to be very careful about what you pick to breed, but then, you should anyway, whether the horses are related or not.


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## Tab (Aug 30, 2011)

I think Top Banana was gorgeous, I'd love to see your colt! Line-breeding is risky, I don't think I would ever do it with minis. Line-breeding is fine as long as you know no dwarfism exists in his lines, and no other major genetic deformities exist. It can bring out the best or the worst, depending on what's back there. I see a few faults in minis in out crosses that I hope will eventually disappear. For instance, if they have a bulbous forehead, bad calcified tooth bumps, huge teeth for the size of his face, a weak butt or a weak front, even soft feet, it's probably best NOT to line breed. My family was in the dog show scene and they are proponents of line-breeding, but also see it as a risk. You just cannot overlook small faults and even then you can end up with blindness, bad hips or elbows, and monorchidism/cryptorchidism. Stuff that is back there just waiting to crop up.


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