# Why do we as a country still shop at Wal-Mart?



## nootka (May 4, 2008)

I have not shopped in a Wal-Mart in well over a year, and even when I have in the past, my stays were very limited, and very specific. I don't like the overall feeling in the local ones.

I know they are catering to a demographic of people that like to get great volumes of things at low cost.

They are running long-standing American companies out of being able to stay in business, and forcing them to move overseas or advising them to do so.For example:

"Ruining Rubbermaid. In 1994, Rubbermaid won accolades as the most admired company in the United States -- but five years later, its fortunes fell so hard that the company sold itself to a competitor. When the price of a key component of its products went up, Rubbermaid asked Wal-Mart for a modest price increase -- but Wal-Mart said no, and stopped sales of Rubbermaid products. At a Rubbermaid factory in Wooster, Ohio, that meant the loss of 1,000 jobs. [PBS Frontline, 11/23/04]

Advises Supplier: 'Open a Factory in China.' To land a supply contract with Wal-Mart, the Lakewood Engineering and Manufacturing Company -- a Chicago fan manufacturer -- had to locate manufacturing operations in Shenzhen, China. Workers there make $.25 an hour -- while the company's Chicago workforce earned an average hourly $13. [Los Angeles Times, 11/23/03]

Advises Mr. Coffee to Move Overseas. Mr. Coffee -- which won awards for moving manufacturing operations back to the United States -- faced pressure to shift production to China even at the height of Wal-Mart's 'Buy American' program. After Wal-Mart demanded a $1 reduction in the wholesale price of a brisk-selling four-cup coffeemaker in 1985, Mr. Coffee executives scouted for factory sites in China -- and executives say Wal-Mart encouraged offshore production even as it promoted its 'Made in the USA' campaign." [The Commercial Appeal, 6/8/01; Cleveland Plain Dealer, 11/14/04]

Forces Huffy Bikes to Brake US Production. Despite decades of making bicycles in the United States, Huffy was forced by Wal-Mart price pressures to close three factories and lay off thousands of workers. The mayor of Celina, Ohio -- where Huffy closed a large factory -- said Wal-Mart's "demand for cheaper bicycles drove Huffy out of Celina." [Mansfield News Journal, 12/8/03]

Minimal Social "

They are China's 8th largest trading partner. China is no friend to the United States, and you can imagine what the money spent at Wal-Mart most likely is funding (our own doom).

The food that they sell from China is likely to be contaminated (google stories of China food poisonings to hear, or perhaps you remember the pet food poisonings), as there is no way to regulate their environmental or food handling procedures. They are putting American farmers out of business even further when they buy cheap produce from overseas.

Wal-Mart is nothing like the company that their founder envisioned, from what I can see from here.

I really hope we never get a Wal-Mart in this county.

It's a vicious cycle, and I don't see those minimum wage no benefit jobs helping this region recover from our unemployment problems.

There's a good website with lots of great reading on it, for those that aren't sure:

Walmart Watch

Personally, I will do my best to not spend another dollar at a Wal-Mart.

Other companies are offering lower prescription rates, but if it were down to that, I would use only that service, as I think the drug companies are gouging people, too.

Just say no to Wal-Mart!

Thanks for listening (though I'm curious why other people would choose to frequent this awful place).

Liz


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## bingo (May 4, 2008)

Walmart saves me hundreds on medication a year. No other pharmacy can match them on my medication not even Costco. I am sure it is a lifesaver to many with and without insurance.

It is a large company that does offer lower prices on almost everything. Many large companies make it harder for Mom & Pop operations.

Sure I don't buy produce there as it is not usually very good, I don't purchase meat there either but the savings on even one brand name box of cereal can easily be 2 dollars a box. That is huge and adds up. I don't buy bulk.

Everyone needs to do what works for them and pick there issues and stand by them. For my family Walmart is not even near the top of the list.

I personally think this country has bigger issues and worse evils to deal with then Walmart and as long as I can go and save my own family a really significant amount of money I will.


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## garyo (May 4, 2008)

What a good post. China is becoming a hugh problem for our economy in general. While our econony is going down the tubes China is booming and we are losing our manufactoring jobs. But it is not just Wal-mart. We all need to start paying attention to where the products we buy are made. It seems as if everything is now made there. So many products made there are now poisoning us and our animals. So, read labels and buy American if you can.

Gary


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## nootka (May 4, 2008)

Gary, that is true, it is not JUST Wal-Mart, but Wal-Mart happens to be one of the biggest retailer that is feeding the demand for cheaply made products.

I was against our local Walgreen's for a long time, but I have found some nice Made in USA things in there.

In any store, I try to bypass the Made in China stuff, and watch for country of origin labels on everything.

If I have to buy the product and I can't find it locally/USA made, I have to ask, then, do I really need it?

Is it well-made enough to justify betraying my country/neighbors.

Soldiers are dying for our freedoms, and we are selling them to China, at an alarming rate.

China will use the money to turn around and take them away from us.

Luckily, we still have a few options for stores around here that are not owned nationally, but mom and pop stores are gone the way of the wind, sadly.

No one is left to care if we don't like the brands of cereal they carry, or that we would rather have another variety of lettuce to purchase, etc. Big business does for themselves, not for us.

Until Wal-Mart changes its policies and stands behind them, I'm staying out.

There are other stores that offer the discounts on prescriptions, but if that's all you do there, then good for you.

I think that's the only thing I can see attractive about the store. Even then, it just feels gross being in a Wal-Mart. IT's dirty and there's just an air of despair, but maybe that's just the ones here in the West.

Liz


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## Minimor (May 4, 2008)

I buy much of my cat food at Wal-Mart; not the cheap Wal-Mart varieties, but the same Fancy Feast & Whiskas products that the petfood stores sell. Why? Because it's cheaper, and some varieties cannot be bought in any other store in our small city. A bag of Fancy Feast dry food is $1 less per bag at Wal-Mart than it is at Pet-Valu or Superstore. (And $2 less than at any of the other stores that sell it) Given the quantity I buy every week, that $1 per bag makes a huge difference on my cat food bill. When you add up the savings on all the cat food I buy, it's a small fortune that I save.

I have certain grocery items that I buy there too. Chipits chocolate chips are $2.18. At Safeway they are $3.63. Green Giant canned veggies are $1.27 per can there. Safeway sells them for $1.75 per can. When Wal-Mart has Del Monte canned veggies they are 97 cents. Safeway sells them ON SALE for $1.50. I buy my calcium supplements and allergy pills at Wal-Mart. They are packaged by the same company that packages for Superstore, only they are a little cheaper. They are far cheaper than if I buy the same product in brand name at the drugstore. Do I know where the pills are made? no, but at the same time I don't know where the brand name ones are actually made either.

Kelloggs Corn Flakes are $4.27 a box; Safeway sells the same box for $6 or more. Sometimes Co-op has that box on sale for $3.50 or $4 and then I buy there. If the other stores have it all at regular price though, then I buy at Wal-Mart.

That's how my shopping at Wal-Mart is--it's very specific, and items are purchased there only because they are so much cheaper. I really don't care for Wal-Mart--it's just too big & kind of cluttered & much too busy, but I cannot afford to not shop there for certain specific items.

In regards to made in China products, I avoid them if I can. I'll even pay a little extra for that made in Canada version of the product. Some things, though, seem to only come from China. If you refuse to buy made in China you go without the product completely. Some things that's fine, I'll go without. Other things, well, yes, I do still buy them. It just depends what it is and how badly I want it.

As for ruining local business and the mom & pop stores--really if you think about it, e-bay and some of the big internet companies have the exact same effect. How many items do you order from Jeffers or e-bay instead of buying those items at your local tack stores???


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## Crabby-Chicken (May 5, 2008)

I don't think Wal Mart is the problem... It is filling the void that is opened up when our politicians thought that is a was a great idea to give big tax breaks to companies to ship jobs over sees so that they could make more profit. THAT is why Wal Mart does so well. Sometimes I need to shop there. And it does employ local people. Just like McDonalds and Burger King. Not the best jobs, but you do it to pay bills.

If our country would stand up, fund more than 10% to our public schools, making us beg for the rest, stop making it near impossible for a middle class child to get an education so that they can keep up and make enough money to keep our country going. But no,. that doesn't keep enough desperate kids around that feel like they HAVE to join the military and go fight for MORE companies to make even larger profits over seas. I was at Wal Mart the other day,,, I was going to buy a water bottle,,, the thing was so misshapen it didn't even sit on the shelf without wobbling. It was made in the USA. THAT is not going to help us in the global market if we make crap, but higher priced crap than other countries make.


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## nootka (May 5, 2008)

> If our country would stand up, fund more than 10% to our public schools, making us beg for the rest, stop making it near impossible for a middle class child to get an education so that they can keep up and make enough money to keep our country going.


This really is a big problem in our country.

L.


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## Marty (May 5, 2008)

OK Liz I'm going to tell you something: First I am A walmart shopper.

But this is what happened here.

Last year we finally got a Walmart. Amazing. A miracle. But it's a tiny Walmart. They ripped us off badly as it is missing many departments such as no crafts or material, no sewing, no hair cut joint, no automotive, no tires or oil change place, no eye doctor thingy and actually NO FLOORING! Just concrete and it's alway so dark in there. The food is ok but the deli is very small and the bakery is pretty much non-existant. The departments that are left are all very very tiny with about $30% of what you can get in a real Walmart.

But since Walmart opened up here, the Bi-Lo Grocery in Dunalp has closed down after being there some 40 odd years. I couldn't believe it till I called to order a birthday cake and got a recording the number was disconnected.

Also a drug store, and the local athletic store where the kids would get their sporting goods is gone.

Then the Grocery store also in Pikeville, about 20 miles out of Dunlap, same thing. Went broke that fast and it was not even a full year till they had to shut down. They could not compete. This all happened since 2007. [email protected]!


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## Miniv (May 5, 2008)

Minimor said:


> I buy much of my cat food at Wal-Mart; not the cheap Wal-Mart varieties, but the same Fancy Feast & Whiskas products that the petfood stores sell. Why? Because it's cheaper, and some varieties cannot be bought in any other store in our small city. A bag of Fancy Feast dry food is $1 less per bag at Wal-Mart than it is at Pet-Valu or Superstore. (And $2 less than at any of the other stores that sell it) Given the quantity I buy every week, that $1 per bag makes a huge difference on my cat food bill. When you add up the savings on all the cat food I buy, it's a small fortune that I save.
> 
> I have certain grocery items that I buy there too. Chipits chocolate chips are $2.18. At Safeway they are $3.63. Green Giant canned veggies are $1.27 per can there. Safeway sells them for $1.75 per can. When Wal-Mart has Del Monte canned veggies they are 97 cents. Safeway sells them ON SALE for $1.50. I buy my calcium supplements and allergy pills at Wal-Mart. They are packaged by the same company that packages for Superstore, only they are a little cheaper. They are far cheaper than if I buy the same product in brand name at the drugstore. Do I know where the pills are made? no, but at the same time I don't know where the brand name ones are actually made either.
> 
> ...



Ouch.........good point. I HATE Walmart, but we do go there with a specific list, as you mention. And ONLY once or twice a month!

Here's another note..........with the gas prices we have, I also take that into account when I shop. I do NOT go to Walmart for my meats and produce




Instead, I shop at two other grocery stores that are close to each other -- one has better meat prices and the other is better with produce........They are both within a half mile of my daughter's school.........etc.......etc............ It's become very complicated now to just go grocery shopping!

Remember the idea of the "one stop grocery shop" ??? Nope. Not any more! You'd think this would be the PERFECT time to promote that, but if they don't treat their customers fairly and with quality........sorry!


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## Charley (May 5, 2008)

We live in a rural community and we do not have a Walmart. They are talking of building one just outside of our adorable little town of Jasper. I hate to think of what it will do to our downtown. Our downtown is thriving and really convenient, but the prices are high and we know that a Walmart will hurt these small businesses that have been here forever. Oh, the Walgreens and the Kroger will do ok I think. But the little family run drugstore and the Piggly Wiggly and the family run hardware stores, the heart of our community, will probably be done the first year or so. We moved here because of the area and now it will change. Of course, they have been going to build here for the year we have been here and we see nothing of them breaking ground. So we are hoping that they won't. I do know that we won't buy there much. We pass by the ones that are 25 minutes away and very seldom do we stop there. We certainly don't buy much there. I am one who looks at the made in China labels and then says I can live without this very easily. Most of the time I do not find any similar item made in the USA. The dollar stores are really Made in China stores. I don't shop there either.

It is hard to find made in USA fabric for sewing anymore. Some will say printed in the USA. So I have been weaving to make some of my own. But it is getting harder and harder to find weaving threads and yarns made in the USA with so many of our mills closed. Former President Clinton really hurt this country with his support of the NAFTA free trade agreement.


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## Jill (May 5, 2008)

I know a lot of people hate Walmart. I actually love to go to it (don't hate me, Liz!!! We agree on most things!!!).

I love their grocery store and like that I can pick up housewares there, too. And, I should maybe be ashamed but I got these tops there recently that I just LOVE and probably wearing one today since I don't have to be dressed up (no client appointments).

Walmart's prices are hard to beat. My opinion (I'm a professional financial coach) is that we are and have been in a global economy. The future of the US work force is not in manufacturing because US consumers will not pay the higher prices that the US workers demand (and in fact require).

Nationally, the average income is something like $30,000 a year. Globally, it's $1,300 a year. The individuals of our Nation are wealthy beyond the ability for most people in the world to comprehend.


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## RockRiverTiff (May 5, 2008)

Gotta say I agree with you Liz, but unfortunately Wal-Mart is now the only place I can get some things. We are lucky because we still have a Kroger's (which actually has better prices on many things with coupons and sales), but Wal-Mart has chased out many of our other businesses. We have two Super Wal-Marts and one regular Wal-Mart within a 10-mile radius (that's one Wal-Mart for each "city" of roughly 10,000). I have to laugh whenever they play their commercials about making life better, because they're one of our primary employers, and having worked there part-time myself at one point when I was going to school I can definitely tell you they are not making their employees' lives better.

They built another Super Wal-Mart about half an hour from here where my mother and sister live, and it gutted the entire town. No other grocery stores, no other hardware stores, and their garden center is putting the squeeze on the one remaining nursery.


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## AppyLover2 (May 5, 2008)

This video has nothing to do with Wal Mart specifically, but it does relate to things a lot of you have said. Hope nobody minds me adding this thought provoking video to this thread.


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## Shari (May 5, 2008)

We walked into the Longview Walmart yesterday.. and walked right back out. Did not like the people there...just didn't like the store. Didn't buy a thing.

Now there are rare times we go to walmart, if we can't make it to the military base.. for TP and the type of water I drink. They have the best prices. But DH goes to the St Helens wm.

Like a lot of poor small towns.. there is not a lot of businesses left for the daily need things, other than Walmart and a few other stores just as tacky.

So I do shop online a lot, for many of the things we need. Try very hard to stay away from things made in China, mexico and so on.

For food... I either grow it myself.. or buy from Azure Standard, and the local producers. The Beef I get from a family owned Farm in Warren. We are about ready to order another side of beef. Veggies we get from either my garden or some of the Farms on Savoie Island..and so on. Am back to making my own bread and only buy GMO free flour and Organic flour grown in the US.

For the Pet food.. I buy from a maker that uses no by products, has the best quality food..and is a small

American Company.

For Cars...we buy Toyotas.. for the simple reason we need very relible transportation with good gas mileage.

We had "american made" cars in the past.. and they bled us for every penny and then some to keep them running. We can't afford such poorly made cars.

The Toyotas.. require the usual maintance but no nasty suprises every couple of months..Thank goodness.

American cars have to show me they have made some major improvements before I touch another one.

Buy as much Made in America or Canada stuff I can. But goodness..it can be very hard to find.

I have been looking for some "Made in America Items" but yet to find anyone that offers what I am looking for. Sigh ~~


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## bingo (May 5, 2008)

Jill said:


> And, I should maybe be ashamed but I got these tops there recently that I just LOVE and probably wearing one today since I don't have to be dressed up (no client appointments).
> 
> .



LOL I must admit I am wearing one today as well. Any time I can buy Haynes T-shirts for 5 bucks a shirt I am a happy camper. So don't be ashamed or well maybe we can take the walk of shame together!


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## nootka (May 5, 2008)

I understand some of the reasoning behind it.

I still hope that our workers are worth a decent wage, but maybe you're right and that's a thing of the past.

The majority of what I see coming from overseas is very poorly made/built, and designed to be thrown away rather than repaired or improved.

Their company is just too large for its own good, for our own good.

Meanwhile, I do my best to find things made in USA, Canada or Europe.

(Jill, you know I could never hate you, and I have nothing but respect for someone that's thought through their opinions intelligently, no matter what they are)

Liz


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## Just Us N Texas (May 5, 2008)

The simple fact is that when you are trying to feed and clothe a family, Wal Mart is cheaper. Maybe more people would like to buy at other stores and just simply can't afford it!I buy most of my canned foods, and detergents, soaps, cereals and etc. from Wal-Mart. Meats I buy from a little store here in town. I bought one rib eye from Wal Mart, didn't look at it too closely while shopping, got home, and found it to be sirloin!

But, I paid rib eye prices for it, so you have to really watch it on everything you buy there. There really is no solution here, because when items are offered at cheaper prices, you bet people are going to buy it, USA made, or foreign made.

Oh, by the way, you do know most Toyotas are made in the USA now, don't you?


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## Carriage (May 5, 2008)

Well written post Liz,

We can count on one hand how many times we have been into a Wall-mart in the last 20 years. We are very familiar with its bus. practices and how it treats its people and business' surrounding.

When "free" trade made its big appearance we were trying to tell everybody that this would be destructive of the US, its values and sovreignty. We can go back to Nixon and before even to see its fledgling start. If you had read the Tofflers book on this topic you would have known where this was all headed.

I would tend to agree that Wall-Mart is a symptom of the bigger problem of free trade and preditory capitalism.

Capitalism=very good, preditory capitalism=very bad.

As a mfr I have seen the changes which are FAR more pernicious than most folks can even imagine. Finding decent steel is a HUGE problem for us.

As long as saving a few bucks is more important than saving a country and its way of life, this will continue. The continued marginilization(sp?) of election candidates that know the problem and how to fix it has also been in full force through-out this time period as well. One of them is still running and is still doing well even though you don't hear that even on FOX who claims to be "fair and balanced". Personally I just want ALL the news and I will decide on fair and balanced, eh?/!

This country was built on a tarrif system. The removal of same has been one of the several paths to our destruction. Fixing he money supply also needs done right now. We have either sown or allowed to be sown the seeds of our own destruction. Nothing new about this as it has been the downfall of all previous empires...

Bb


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## River Wood (May 5, 2008)

I admit I HATE to visit our Walmart. It's extremely dirty and crowded and the people....lets just say that myself and many MANY people that I know...don't feel comfortable going there at night thats for sure!



Some of the employees that work there are just as scarey looking as the people that shop there too.





I will shop somewhere a bit more expense just to feel comfortable and "safe"


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## Sonya (May 5, 2008)

I do not shop at Wal-mart at all...I shop at Meijer if I have to go to full service grocery/retail store. Mainly my groceries come from our local small grocery store.


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## Sterling (May 5, 2008)

I avoid Walmart at all costs if at all possible. I can't even remember the last time I was IN Walmart




....(sometime last month and it was because the Pharmacy in my grocery store did'nt have something I needed). Got in, got out.....got on my way.

I have to say quite a number of people who work there (in our area) are very rude and unprofessional. So you can bet that whenever I go into Walmart I'm in there for a specific thing....don't like to browse or window shop either. It's not a Super Walmart...and even if it were I would'nt buy my groceries there...I have to say I'm very picky with groceries and won't buy the generic brands unless they're tried and true. Been there done that and have been quite dissappointed.

Speaking of American made...we are growing our own this year, taking a big step and doing up a garden for this specific purpose. Not many things, but veggies such as tomatoes, onions, squash, peppers, etc....every little bit helps. And for my dogs, I have been cooking for them since the dog food scare a year ago. That based with a good brand dog food kibble and the girls are pretty well set. Which btw Canidae just went up $6.00 a bag!!!



And my pet food supplier says it's due to gas prices....



So as long as the good Lord lets me I will continue on as I am.....

Just a little "aside" here. I am a crafter and have noticed that people buying things hand made/American made are getting pretty picky. They'd much rather go to the farmer's market where you can get things mass-produced from China and costing only a dollar than hand crafted here in the US.



Oh and I love the comments...."Oh...so and so....we can go to the farmers market and get something similar to what she's selling for way less". Sad really. Ok...sorry for the long post, but this does bug me.


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## Shari (May 5, 2008)

Yes, do know some Toyota's are made in the USA. DH old Echo was made in Japan,, my Van was made in the US.



But the Tech is so much better in the Japanese cars.

Scary to think the American car makers think so little of us...they keep making unreliable cars.





Or how they lie...spouting " our Trucks are made in the USA". However.. many models of Chevy are made in..... Mexico!





Sterling.. tell me about people wanting crafts or Art..but do not want to pay a fair price for it...because they can get the cheaper mass made stuff from China for less. I do not live in China.. I live here and spend..hours and months on my Art. Can't afford to give it away for nothing. Sigh ~~

Don't see anything getting any better soon. As long as the main masses..that have no clue what is going on......keep buying like they do, nothing is going to change.

If I had the money for some of those new solar panels that work in my kind of clime and a wind generator that can handle the high gusty winds.. I would get off the grid in a heart beat. I know... bit of a different subject.

Could do the Veggie and Fruits.. Beef from that Family,,, could stay local for that kind of stuff.

But for a lot of things...and I have looked.. is hard to find Made in America.. everyday items and clothing.


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## Reble (May 5, 2008)

China is now where most products can be made the cheapest for the The Companies.

When will will learn China makes quantity *not quality *

Who can beat the prices?

Example my husbands job is at stake again, (been there now 17 years.) the last automotive job he was there 13 years, and their doors closed after 75 years. You are never secure anymore.

Now this company has built a foundry over in China and Hungry, has a foundry down in Georgia which did not make it. and has closed a couple of places in Ontario. (NO RAISE FOR 5 YEARS) and guess what, want the workers to take a $4.00 cut and cut in benefits.

I hate hearing, oh be thankful he has a JOB.!!!!!

OK they take the cut and in a few more years still closes! now what are we going to be living off, now that our unemployment has been cut even more.

He usually needs to work 50 hours now to make our bills...

No more overtime right now, because of their contract coming up





I have just got to the point you cannot fight them, when one door closes, we pray another door will open.


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 5, 2008)

nootka said:


> Is it well-made enough to justify betraying my country/neighbors.Soldiers are dying for our freedoms, and we are selling them to China, at an alarming rate.
> 
> China will use the money to turn around and take them away from us.
> 
> Liz


Unfortunately, most of the soldiers I've talked to think Walmart is great!



Like me, when you are YOUNG and BROKE and looking at an economic recession and unbelievable housing prices and wondering how on earth you're ever going to maintain a family and buy land and keep your horses, you've got to cut corners somewhere. For me it's going wherever things are cheapest. Period. Yes, the store is depressing and crowded and ugly and the merchandise is junk. I go there maybe six times a year and then it's for very specific supplies like crates for making jumps or a folding table for the mini shows or other brand-name items I know are the same as I could purchase elsewhere for half the price. I don't buy food there (yuck!) nor clothing for the most part, just those plastic items I need and don't feel like paying more for. The reason I don't have much money left over for those sorts of necessities is because I'm busy spending so much of my income on hand-made American harnesses, horse feed, and British-designed made-in-America carts!



So I don't feel as guilty as I might.

It's a vicious circle...Walmart-type corporations pay poverty level wages so employees and their families can only afford to shop at poverty-level stores which in turn make enough money to stay in business. But the fact is that many people in American cannot AFFORD to spend their dollars at a "better class" of establishment just to make a statement. Frankly we feel like no one will hear it anyway and it's just that many fewer dollars available to put in the gas tank so we can get to work.



Crabby-Chicken said:


> If our country would stand up, fund more than 10% to our public schools, making us beg for the rest, stop making it near impossible for a middle class child to get an education so that they can keep up and make enough money to keep our country going. But no,. that doesn't keep enough desperate kids around that feel like they HAVE to join the military and go fight for MORE companies to make even larger profits over seas. I was at Wal Mart the other day,,, I was going to buy a water bottle,,, the thing was so misshapen it didn't even sit on the shelf without wobbling. It was made in the USA. THAT is not going to help us in the global market if we make crap, but higher priced crap than other countries make.


Here here on both points! My ex spent thousands going to college to become an electrical engineer with promises of big jobs right out of school but when after TWO YEARS no one would hire him but Fred Meyer's (at minimum wage, I might add) he joined the Army. This was a 25 year old bright, healthy, college-educated white male. Guess what- now he's got a blown knee, ruined shoulder, two bad ankles, and they shipped him off for his first tour of duty in Iraq yesterday at 29 years old despite his Army-induced disabilities. The only good news is at least they paid off his student loans while they were busy permanently disabling him.





I too would like to buy American-made items theoretically but frankly many of them are every bit as bad as foreign-made items and it's a waste of my money. I spend an awful lot of time going









and borrowing Kody's blinders just to try and stay sane in this world. I think honestly the horses are my escape. I spend hundreds on them and never blink but freak out at $30 for a pair of jeans or $40 for a haircut.



I try to buy _experiences_ as much as possible and limit my items to the ones necessary to make those experiences happen.

Leia


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## mininik (May 5, 2008)

I



Fred Meyers! Where else can you spend fifty bucks or more on a half bag of groceries? It sure helps you to be selective!



I not only try to buy American and local, but natural and organic as well. I drive a '96 JEEP (American made, easy on gas and able to tow my pony if needed). I will soon be buying no flat tires for my bike so I can make more trips that way.

HOW MUCH STUFF DO YOU REALLY NEED?!


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## Bassett (May 5, 2008)

I just want to say here in Western Wisconsin and Eastern Minnesota there are 3 Walmarts that I shop at. They are beautiful, very clean, well lighted stores. I love Walmart. MOST of the people are very nice, friendly and helpful. If any of the stores here were like you describe I would not enjoy shopping at them. They have very fresh meat and fruits and vegetables. They say the average Walmart shopper saves roughly $2500.00 a year and I believe it. It is the one stop shopping that has me hooked. I don't like hopping from store to store, costs more to keep starting your car and going on short stops than you save. Just MHO.


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## Leeana (May 5, 2008)

Bassett said:


> I just want to say here in Western Wisconsin and Eastern Minnesota there are 3 Walmarts that I shop at. They are beautiful, very clean, well lighted stores. I love Walmart. MOST of the people are very nice, friendly and helpful. If any of the stores here were like you describe I would not enjoy shopping at them. They have very fresh meat and fruits and vegetables. They say the average Walmart shopper saves roughly $2500.00 a year and I believe it. It is the one stop shopping that has me hooked. I don't like hopping from store to store, costs more to keep starting your car and going on short stops than you save. Just MHO.


I completely agree with you. I shop at wal-mart on average maybe two times a week. Call me young and selfish as much as you want. All of our walmarts are clean and i have never been treated wrongly. Prices are great, the quality is great. Food section is nice and full of fresh foods, clothing is actually pretty good for a department store. I can go buy grocerys, clothes, makeup ext, and little extra things like music and dvd and get my photos developed all in one stop! OR i guess i could put $30 in my car and drive store to store to store and make getting things done a all day chore, i would personally like to avoid that. Walmart is actually the only store i enjoy shopping at. They offer "designer" brands of perfumes ext much cheaper then what you would pay at a mall.

Kmart, now THAT is the store that worrys me. We have two kmarts that i have shopped at and the selection is HORRIABLE and they are nasty.

One of my best friends from high school works at walmart and she enjoys her job and gets paid "decent" but it also allows her to do college.


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## nootka (May 5, 2008)

> HOW MUCH STUFF DO YOU REALLY NEED?!


Personally, I think mininik has hit on a big problem with America as a whole.

We are spoiled, greedy and wasteful.

I am sure that myself included, we could learn a lot from smaller nations who exist more efficiently. Just because we HAVE the resources, doesn't mean we should use them all right now.

I know people who have to go out and buy all new decorations for EVERY holiday. They don't think to save the nicer ones, or buy nice ones to begin with and take care of them, or keep it simple and use easily available items in the beginning.

Then again, there are others I know that buy several different outfits at a time, wear them a time or two, then either ruin them because they can't care for them, or are too lazy to fix them up right (stain removal, zipper repair, etc.) and toss them in the trash.

Tsk, tsk.

Kmart and Wal-Mart are cut from the same cloth. Loads and loads of stuff we don't need, all served up around great prices on things we DO want and need. As long as you're in there getting the stuff you know you need and want, you will likely pick up a lot of the other stuff as well.

The sad thing is that they use their clout to force long-standing companies out of business, or to go against their business practices that made them a decent company to begin with. They disrespect workers, and they pollute the environment. A fine for them is just like a "tax" it is considered a cost of doing business.

They are just TOO BIG, IMO, for the good of our country.

I see too much of our treasured way of life being trod upon as the masses hurry to the sales. Who really needs all those trashy plastic cups and placemats, tablecloths and such just because it's Spring/Summer?

Use the ones you have, or keep a nice set of Corelle you bought at a thrift store. LIghtweight, re-usable and easily replaced if one breaks. I have a set I've had since I was married in 1988.

Then again, I also have the same Winter coat I've had since 1998, given to me from the boat owner that Martin worked on at the time.

It's interesting to see everyone's point of view. If you look at the walmartwatch.com website, you'll see a lot of why Wal-Mart is a bad idea, and it's probably a good idea to limit spending and be wary, and if there's not one in your town, do all you can to make sure it doesn't happen.

Liz


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## bingo (May 5, 2008)

nootka said:


> Kmart and Wal-Mart are cut from the same cloth. Loads and loads of stuff we don't need, all served up around great prices on things we DO want and need. As long as you're in there getting the stuff you know you need and want, you will likely pick up a lot of the other stuff as well.
> 
> Liz


Ummmm that is not just the hope of K-Mart or Wal-Mart. That is the hope and what all stores push for be it a department store that sells clothes or any grocery store





However please don't feel I am downplaying your feelings and passion on the issue.

I will take the time to go and read the site you posted.


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## nootka (May 5, 2008)

Yes, I know it is the plan of all stores that sell anything, it's just the monopoly that Wal-Mart will have if we don't force ourselves to find other options, and look seriously at our spending habits.

If they can control the market, it's not healthy for any of us.

I would never imagine that Wal-Mart and K-Mart are the "only" baddies, it's just that Wal-Mart happens to be the biggest, and right now the baddest to my knowledge.

Liz


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## kaykay (May 5, 2008)

So funny as I had posted pretty much the same thing as you Liz on another forum about a month ago. I cant stand walmart and have hated them ever since they first started in small towns pushing out all the mom and pop stores

Our walmart is the pitts. The produce is horrible. Its dirty, cluttered ughh.

I also posted about the lawsuit where Walmart was suing an injured worker and was really taken to task over it. Heres a link. They finally dropped the suit against her under pressure. Walmart is self insured so the retorts that they "had" to sue her to comply with their ins are false. Walmart is their own ins company

walmart

Then there are all the lawsuits over the sandals from china they kept selling even after numerous injuries were reported. The list goes on and on


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## nootka (May 5, 2008)

Glad you see inside the machine that is Wal-Mart, kaykay...

it might look slick and shiny in some places, but it's eating people alive.

The videos they post from their conventions and such are just revolting.

I've known people that have worked there and it is degrading.

Our Wal-Marts (only ever have been in the Longview, Wa, the St. Helens and a few Portland area ones) are just filthy and full of the lower ranks of human civilization (including me on those days, I'm sure).

The workers had dirty uniforms and the floors were filthy, things were in disarray and the cold grease from the McDonald's inside just coagulates in the air. Ugh.

Our local Fred Meyer's USED TO BE locally owned. They were started by Fred G. Meyer, who passed away some time ago. My dad used to work for the chain, which was pretty much only in the Northwest. They were a good one stop shopping store. Now they are owned by Kroger, and I don't like a lot of the changes. I have switched to Safeway where I can, but I try to split it for the best price between the two, or use our one and only locally owned grocery store, Main St. Market in Warrenton.

I can't wait for our Sunday Market so that I can begin buying produce from our local farmers!!!

I've thought that we should start growing some of our own food, too, though I am so inept at that...with the price of fuel, what will we do if it gets too expensive to buy the staples we need (sure ain't talking about chicken mcnuggets, here)?

Luckily, we could get fish and seafood pretty easily as long as my husband's working or someone he knows is working.

But, that is all off-topic. I urge anyone and everyone to take a careful look at what you spend at Wal-Mart, and please do go in there with the list of things you have to buy there, but hurry back out and explore alternatives.

For the record, I shop very little on eBay except for rare items and antique items that are not part of any new retail chain. I do not shop with anyone other than my local feed and pet stores for my horses and pets. I rarely buy clothing online, though I do occasionally buy specialty things and I DO shop Hobby Horse for horse show clothing once in a while. I do think the internet has also changed the economy in many ways, but I don't want to see it become the only option.

Our local feed/farm supply dealer is likely going to be run out of business in some aspects by a new Home Depot going in nearby. The price they get their cattle panels for is $2 ea. more than what the same supplier sells them to Home Depot for. That means that Home Depot sells them for less than he can afford to even carry them. I find that tragic. I would gladly spend that extra $2 to keep this long-standing local family in business and keep them here.

I know not everyone feels the same, but I will do what I can, where I can, even though I know it is an eyedropper in the ocean.

I hope to get a few hanging baskets for Mother's Day, but I will not buy them anywhere except a local nursery. There are two or three great ones to choose from, here. I could buy them at Fred Meyer's, but I don't know who runs their nurseries, and likely it's nowhere near here. Instead, I go to Brim's which is just a few miles from here (the mother of the guy I mentioned about the cattle panels, she is part oft he family business, she does the plants and trees/gardening stuff), or Valley Nursery just outside of Astoria. For $30, I'll get the hugest baskets that will flower all Summer. Not all that much more than the ones coming from Freddy's, and certainly prettier. Think about where you spend your money...where it goes, and what you get for that money...where it comes from.

Liz


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## Minimor (May 5, 2008)

See, here our WalMart is nothing like Liz describes. We have a new big store--it doesn't have a produce or meat section, but compared to the old store we had up until 3 years ago, this one is big. It's a brand new building, very clean, staff are clean, friendly and well groomed. A few are as slow as molasses & absolutely hopeless at ringing up a large amount of canned cat food correctly--I've learned which ones to avoid!--On a busy day the store seems crowded because they always have displays along the center of the main aisles, and then between those center displays they stack boxes of stock that hasn't been unpacked yet--in that respect it is cluttered. The building itself is located in our city's busist retail center--a big bunch of box stores. At night the parking lots could be better lit, but that is true of the entire complex, it's not just a WalMart problem.

I know someone--a government employee in the same department as me, but a different office--who works part time as a greeter in the WalMart in his town, and he apparently loves the job.

I have to say I have always been well treated by Wal Mart customer service the few times I've had to return something.


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## kaykay (May 6, 2008)

I was thinking about this some more (as i sit here sleep deprived on mare stare)

I remember living in a small town in illinois with a locally owned grocery store that i adored. everyone knew my name and my kids. the meat cutter knew just how I liked our steaks and chops cut and even had great cooking tips. Then about 20 miles away in the next town walmart came in. The store owner was okay though because it was just a walmart. Then a couple years later they announced it would be remodeled to become a super walmart. I saw the resignation in the owners eyes. He hung in there as long as he could but they closed 2 years later. It was so sad. I knew then an era was over.

Another small town I lived in (yep ive lived a lot of places) started a huge advertising campaign to BUY LOCAL. it was effective. I still try to buy from my local merchants when possible but they are so disappearing.


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## Shari (May 6, 2008)

The Walmarts here are not nice, nor are the people running it...or shopping in it for that matter.

For Soldiers loving Walmart.... hate to say this.. but in the 21 years Hubby was in the Navy and all the years since. Everyone we know in the mliltary Navy/Airforce, will go 3 to 4 hours one way if they have to, to shop at the Military base and stock up for 6 months or a year.

They don't like Walmart. But maybe we run in different circles.

What is nice about the Military base.. all clothing.. Military issue..is made in the USA and not badly made. But that doesn't help those not in the military.

Changing gears...

Liz.. Have you looked into a Local Organic food co-op? My Parents joined one.. pre pay for the Veggies and Fruit and you get a set amount every week. Is working out really good for them.

Here is one of the many directories you can look at.

http://www.tilth.org/Resources/directory/index.html

You are also in an area "Azure Standard" goes to. You can either ask to see if there are any open drop points in your area.. or buy $400.00 of food.. which is really easy..and they will bring it to your door in one of their Semi's.

http://www.azurestandard.com/

Lately I have been buying Organic Shirts.. really like them. Cotton grown in the USA.. non GMO and all that..and made in the US.


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## Charley (May 6, 2008)

When we were putting up horse fence and we saw the panels advertised cheaper at Home Depot, we went to the local farm store and they matched the price.

We do support our local stores and customer service is alive and well in these small town businesses!


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

mininik said:


> HOW MUCH STUFF DO YOU REALLY NEED?!


Kidding some, but that's kind of like asking how much money do you want to earn? For me, no matter how much it is, "more" is always the answer



But, then, it's my job to make money and in more ways than one





I'm a business owner and I have been for over a decade. It's easy to empathize with the business owners who have been pushed out of the market by Walmart but the flip side is I know how many hoops I have gone through, and continue to evolve, so that my firm stays viable. I don't know the answer for a merchant but I know I "could have" let the big name brand brokerage houses run me out (or run a branch office for them if I really wanted to hate my job), or I can make myself a niche and that's what I've done.

It's a free market. Free markets work. Competition, even when we're talking something as big as Walmart, is good for the consumer.


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## Bassett (May 6, 2008)

PLEASE no offense Liz, but you obviously have more money to spend than we in the poor midwest (ie Wisconsin, Minnesota, Iowa etc) that I and a lot of others have to spend at our nice clean, friendly, well run Walmarts. Moving is not an option. I have to live on $1500.00 a month. Very, very hard. One reason I had to give up my horses. I get by and am not complaining but I HAVE to shop where I get it the cheapest.


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## kaykay (May 6, 2008)

I just dont see where Walmart encourages competition. They come in and undercut every store around them until they go under and then gradually bring the prices back up.

I still remember when airlines and utilities were split up for being monopolies. Walmart is fast on its way to becoming a monopoly imo.

It is hard to shop other places especially if you live in rural areas. And gas prices dont help that either. Its such a hard spot to be in


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## whitney (May 6, 2008)

What about Dollar stores, how much product is made in the USA?

I have seen 3 farmers markets spring up in the last 2 years just in my area. With all the food recalls people want to buy fresh AND LOCAL. With the price of gas is it cheaper to buy from your neighbor or drive 30 miles to the nearest Walmart? Just a thought.


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

My point is economics. Walmart is THE competition for many retailers and their competitive pricing is good for the consumers. Walmart's job isn't to make it easier for the Mom and Pop businesses to stay around. Their job is to make money for their investors and to do it, they offer some impossible to beat pricing to consumers. Competition is a good thing for the CONSUMER








kaykay said:


> I just dont see where Walmart encourages competition. They come in and undercut every store around them until they go under and then gradually bring the prices back up.
> 
> I still remember when airlines and utilities were split up for being monopolies. Walmart is fast on its way to becoming a monopoly imo.
> 
> It is hard to shop other places especially if you live in rural areas. And gas prices dont help that either. Its such a hard spot to be in


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## Charley (May 6, 2008)

Competition is good to a point. *It is no longer good when it creates a market for foreign products that drives American manufacturing out of business and puts so many American workers out of the job market. * That is part of what is causing our dollar to drop in value and increasing the price of foreign products..namely oil (because our dollar is not strong or worth what it was a few years ago).


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

Well, my opinion as I said before is that there is not a good future for American manufacturing. We're in a global economy and the reality is there are millions of workers in the world who will do the job for a tiny fraction of what American workers wll do it for. That's really only half the equation. The other half is that the American public in general will not PAY the cost it would require if these products were made by high cost American workers.


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## Charley (May 6, 2008)

Yup, Jill...you are looking at what is good for the "Jill's" of the world not necessarily what is good for America.


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

Okay, you must be right. It's not at all a valid point of view that we're in a global economy. Everything I said is to promote me and all us other Jill's.


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## bingo (May 6, 2008)

Charley said:


> Yup, Jill...you are looking at what is good for the "Jill's" of the world not necessarily what is good for America.





Guess I am proudly another Jill of the world (whatever that means) somehow I don't think I will take it how I am guessing it was meant though!





I can think of much worse things to be then a "Jill" and much bigger issues effecting our country today but that is just my opinion of course!


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## Shari (May 6, 2008)

Made in China.... has anyone seen where they make those things?

People barely get enough money for food.. they live in what I would call a dump..they work out of their house and the "Companies" pick said items up to ship to the USA. Most of it is not done in a big nice factory.

Just like those children in the middle east that were forced to make rugs and they became bent and broken by the time they were 16 years old.

If that is what Global economy is all about... I want none of it.

Or that companies sends our jobs to other countries. Then they spend fortunes to right all the mistakes. I know.. my Husband is in the Tech business. They would end up saving billions if they just use good workers in the US. Instead of spinning their wheels in other countries where they have less control of the end product.

I find people that think it is ok..to send American jobs overseas..has never lost his or her job because of that. Do not know how it feels and what hardships it causes to families. Seems like there is no pride in America left in this day in age. Just so long as people get what they want cheap.. they do not care.

And belive me.. I very much know first hand how hard it is to be poor and barely able to feed ones family. Spent years in that state, after hubby got out of the Navy. Goodness.. even when he was in the first half of his 20 years. His pay was under the poverty line.


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

Not wanting to be part of a global economy is like saying you're tired of breathing air. I'm not saying it's good, or it's bad -- it just IS.


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## kaykay (May 6, 2008)

As Americans we fought years ago for workers rights and to get our children out of factories and into school. So no Americans will not sit in sweat shops making 17 cents an hour or send their children to work in them. This is just a small excerpt of a Dateline investigation on how Walmart can sell clothes so cheap. If you just google walmart and bangladesh you will get hours of reading on the realities of what a "global economy" does to other countries and our own.

I. Wal-Mart told NBC Dateline:

“We strongly believe that our business—and the wages and benefits we provide, have

helped improve the lives of many thousands of workers in many parts of the world.”

The Truth: Wal-Mart is the largest producer in Bangladesh. According to the U.S. State

Department, the official minimum wage in Bangladesh’s garment export sector has fallen eight

percent between 2000 and 2004, dropping to 22 cent an hour. As we have seen, Wal-Mart does

not even pay this, with most workers sewing Wal-Mart garments earning just 13 to 17 cents an

hour. Furthermore, at the same time wages were falling in Bangladesh, the cost of living

increased by 17.5 percent. Coupled with the wage decrease, the Bangladeshi garment workers

have lost 25.5 percent of their purchasing power since 2000. They are going backward.

If Wal-Mart has its way, the workers in Bangladesh are about to be driven even deeper into

misery. Fortune Asia reported on May 16, 2005 that, “In January, Wal-Mart and other

retailers demanded that exporters cut prices by 12 percent or find themselves without new

orders.” On top of that, Wal-Mart wants its Bangladeshi contractors to start paying for “any

duties imposed by importing nations,” which in the case of the U.S. ranges from 18 to 22

percent. The workers in Bangladesh could see their wages, already at starvation level, plummet

by another 34 percent. A young woman sewing Wal-Mart garments for 13 cents an hour may

soon find herself earning just 8.5 cents an hour.

Regarding Wal-Mart’s commitment to benefits: Over a year ago, we asked Wal-Mart to sign a

simple pledge that any woman sewing Wal-Mart’s garments in Bangladesh finally receive her

legal right to three months maternity leave with full pay. We are talking about maternity

benefits of as little as $27 a month, $81 for the entire three months. To date, 22 companies have

signed the pledge, including Costco, Sears/Kmart, PVH, Levi Strauss, Gap, Liz Claiborne, H&M

and many others. Wal-Mart alone refuses to sign the pledge, and some of the hardest-working

yet poorest women in the world sewing Wal-Mart garments continue to be cheated out of

maternity benefits they so desperately need for the welfare of their infants.

II. Wal-Mart told Dateline:


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## mininik (May 6, 2008)

Jill said:


> mininik said:
> 
> 
> > HOW MUCH STUFF DO YOU REALLY NEED?!
> ...


I believe you can be wealthy and not wasteful. You can also be selective.






If not, oh well! It must be nice knowing your wealth is helping support the global economy... of sweatshops:






Perhaps more Americans could afford to shop for goods made in the USA if they weren't out buying $7. lattes three times a day, driving around in their 8 mpg SUVs to buy their trendy throwaway clothing plus bags upon bags of other assorted over-priced and unnecessary crap to stuff into their McMansions...

On the other end of the spectrum, if the rest of 'em could just get up off their dead asses and do something other than make babies to raise welfare money the same could be said there, too.


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## Charley (May 6, 2008)

My gosh!! After searching "Walmart Bangledesh" and reading some of the facts. I will not go into Walmart again.





The problem is though that it isn't just Walmart. When I go to buy clothing, it is almost impossible to find anything made in the US; it is all made somewhere in Asia....


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## kaykay (May 6, 2008)

Hey look at this site!

american made clothes

I also agree that its this always wanting "more" that leads to so much trouble. I have tried so hard to raise my kids as not constantly wanting and wanting. Its so hard!! We definitely need to live by the less IS MORE. Myself included.

Liz I have recommitted myself to being a more aware consumer and stop taking the easy way out. Thank you for reminding me.


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## Charley (May 6, 2008)

Thanks for the link! T-shirts and Jeans....most the time that is all I need. I bookmarked it and will pass the link along!


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## Shari (May 6, 2008)

Thank you for the link KayKay. Will add that to my list.


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## Magic (May 6, 2008)

Great link for American made clothes, thanks!!





In a small town near here, the Laz-E-Boy manufacturing plant is closing and moving to Mexico, putting 600 people out of work.



This will have a HUGE impact on that town, and the surrounding area. I'll tell you what, I sure won't buy Laz-E-Boy furniture after that!

I realize that it's a Catch-22, people needing to buy things as cheaply as possible to survive, and the dilemma of supporting the awful things that Walmart does.



I personally won't shop at Walmart unless it is absolutely the only place I can buy the item that I need. And maybe I don't really need that item. I USED to, but the more I learned about Walmart the worse I felt about going there to get anything. I watch the ads for the local grocery stores and stock up on non-perishable foods or non-food items when they are on sale, and save money that way. You can get good deals other places besides Walmart (if you have "other places" near enough to get to, anyway)


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

I'm sure you folks are onto something and Walmart is probably going to be having a board meeting this afternoon to discuss which stores to close now that so few will be shopping with them.


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## Magic (May 6, 2008)

Jill said:


> I'm sure you folks are onto something and Walmart is probably going to be having a board meeting this afternoon to discuss which stores to close now that so few will be shopping with them.




yeah, THAT's not going to happen, lol!


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## bingo (May 6, 2008)

mininik said:


> Perhaps more Americans could afford to shop for goods made in the USA if they weren't out buying $7. lattes three times a day, driving around in their 8 mpg SUVs to buy their trendy throwaway clothing plus bags upon bags of other assorted over-priced and unnecessary crap to stuff into their McMansions...


Or spend money on luxury's like horse shows, horses, dog clothes, designer doggy hair cuts. Some things we see as a huge part of our lives others see as frivolous as coffee or latte.

It is very easy to see what some are wasting money on however sometimes not so easy when it is you or something very near and dear to your heart.


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## Magic (May 6, 2008)

bingo said:


> Or spend money on luxury's like horse shows, horses, dog clothes, designer doggy hair cuts. Some things we see as a huge part of our lives others see as frivolous as coffee or latte.
> 
> It is very easy to see what some are wasting money on however sometimes not so easy when it is you or something very near and dear to your heart.




This is true. How many "non-horse" people think we are all nuts to spend so much money on hay and grain and vaccinations, trims, etc etc??





I won't condemn people for shopping at Walmart; my own daughter does. But I will be sending her some links, and letting her know more about what Walmart does. What she does with that knowledge is totally up to her. Everybody takes stands on somethings-- it's just that we don't all tend to take a stand on the SAME things.

I wonder how controversial a topic about recycling would be?


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

For the record, I can afford to shop at any store in town, but I will continue to grocery shop at the Walmart closest to me -- which is nice, new, clean and with a great selection. I'll keep buying some housewares there, too. And, I won't be alone. Millions of Americans will too not because they cannot afford to go elsewhere, but because it's a good value for their money and the American public in general demands value.

Right back to it but if "you" do not get that we are in a global economy and that we as a Nation compete globally for jobs, services and sales, then no amount of explaining will clear things up. It's not something I say because I want it to be true, it is just a fact of modern life.

_PS anyone reading this who has horses is indulging in an extreme luxury. It's been 100 years since anyone "needed" a horse. Forget the fancy coffees... us with horses are spending big bucks JUST for enjoyment._


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## mininik (May 6, 2008)

bingo said:


> Or spend money on luxury's like horse shows, horses, dog clothes, designer doggy hair cuts. Some things we see as a huge part of our lives others see as frivolous as coffee or latte.
> 
> It is very easy to see what some are wasting money on however sometimes not so easy when it is you or something very near and dear to your heart.


Right, but see the point is not that everyone should have to do without, giving up everything they love, it's that one can live well without living to EXCESS.


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## Magic (May 6, 2008)

Jill said:


> Right back to it but if "you" do not get that we are in a global economy and that we as a Nation compete globally for jobs, services and sales, then no amount of explaining will clear things up.





I don't think that we are too dense to understand the fact that we are a global economy.








I think that what some of us are saying or at least what *I* am saying, is that we also have a CHOICE to not shop where we disapprove of a company's actions. And that is what I do. That is part of the competition for jobs, services, and sales, attracting business. And if I find a company's business ethics questionable, I have a right to refuse to shop there, correct? Even if they DO have the lowest prices. And everyone else has a right to go shop there if they want. *shrug*

I guess those 600 people who are now jobless from the Laz-E-Boy closure can go work at Walmart, they should feel pretty flush making that $6.50 an hour or whatever it is. THAT ought to keep them in their homes with food on the table huh?


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

mininik said:


> Right, but see the point is not that everyone should have to do without, giving up everything they love, it's that one can live well without living to EXCESS.


To 99.9% of the world's population, owning a miniature horse or pony "just for fun" is an unimaginable excess.


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## mininik (May 6, 2008)

Right, so we should all head to Walmart to snatch up some more junk! Maybe I can find something for my brand new Escalade, or get a third flatscreen TV for my 5000 sqf home...


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

Magic said:


> I guess those 600 people who are now jobless from the Laz-E-Boy closure can go work at Walmart, they should feel pretty flush making that $6.50 an hour or whatever it is. THAT ought to keep them in their homes with food on the table huh?


I know you're not too dense, trust me, and I'm all for people shopping where they want. I do!

And, I'm not heartless either. I do care about people who have hardship but because of the way I really think the global economy works, I do not think people in this Country in manufacturing jobs have a viable future in that line of work.

Because the basic nature of people seeking value for their dollars won't change, and American's cannot work as cheaply as those in some other Nations will, I don't see a bright future for those manufacturing jobs in this country.

Walmart's not going away and is not the only discount retailer, either. I think the solution for the Nation is a better educated and more skilled work force.

To me, arguing over why so many millions shop at Walmart and thinking the discussion can change the fact is like debating what shade of red we'd all like to see the grass in our yards turn.

_PS Nicole, as someone who spent about 1000 miles behind the wheel of a brand new, American made, Escalade last week, missing my horses, I can tell you which I count as the bigger luxury in life and it's not the one with GPS. Every single one of us here has things in our lives that others would find frivolous and someone with a horse habit shouldn't be casting all that many stones._


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## kaykay (May 6, 2008)

I think its a good post because it got more people thinking and talking. The thing is this is nothing new. A basic internet search will show that people against walmart is much bigger then this forum. Its been going on for years. I do agree that people can shop wherever they want as that is their basic right as an American. Do I think Walmart will close?? No but maybe they will try to do better. I know when they came under so much fire for suing the injured worker (it was on every news station, website etc) They stopped and did not take the money. So pressure in numbers does work even on Walmart.

I found this quote from the American Made Clothes site really interesting given how long ago it was said

When President Warren Harding was challenged by the argument that consumers benefit from cheaper imports, he replied "One who values American prosperity and . . . American standards of wage and living can have no sympathy with the proposal that easy entry and a flood of imports will cheapen our cost of living. It is more likely to destroy our capacity to buy."


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## bingo (May 6, 2008)

mininik said:


> Right, but see the point is not that everyone should have to do without, giving up everything they love, it's that one can live well without living to EXCESS.


I think having a dog get a haircut or dyed pink every 2-3 weeks and wearing designer doggy clothes is excess. I wouldn't choose to spend my money that way. Someone else may think owning a miniature horse or pony is complete excess and wouldn't choose to spend there money that way. Some might think going out to eat is excess. Going to horse shows, buying show halters, carts harnesses separate from the ones we work in daily. Horse Blankets in matching colors. 3 sets of dishes it could be a million things and some would be very grateful they can manage to purchase what is important to them and others will fault them for living to EXCESS!





There are many big issues facing our country today and the answer is not about only one right or wrong way. The key is to do what you can to and be aware of your choices and what changes you are willing and able to make. Not everyone will be able or willing to make the same changes or choices but everyone making some changes and choices is what this country needs.


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## Jill (May 6, 2008)

kaykay said:


> I think its a good post because it got more people thinking and talking. The thing is this is nothing new. A basic internet search will show that people against walmart is much bigger then this forum. Its been going on for years.


Thank you. That really makes my point. It's been going on for years. People talking and complaining. Yet how many of us have seen new Walmarts open up in our town, or towns near us? People talk... and then they shop and lots of them keep on doing it at Walmart. They don't open up new stores because they're not selling to Americans.


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## nightflight (May 6, 2008)

Everyone with a computer and the time to talk on little beginnings has it good compared to many others in this world. Honestly, if somone chooses to surround themselves with luxury and excess that is no one's business but their own, but, when that comes at the horrible expense of someone else it becomes time to take a second look.

I disagree with the ethics of Walmart, so I shop elsewhere when I can. My dollar is a vote. Some people don't have that luxury, and I understand that. I don't want to see Walmart go out of business, but I don't think people should have to work at slave wages, lack health care, and loose jobs just so that I can buy cheaper water tubs for my horses.


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## kaykay (May 6, 2008)

Not true though Jill. There have been several Walmarts stores blocked from opening when I lived in Illinois and one was blocked in Ohio. The one in Ohio Walmart demanded so many tax breaks from the city that the entire community said NO and Walmart did not open in that location. I think as the years go on more and more people see it for what it is and instead of being excited about Walmart coming to town now some of them say No!


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## Shari (May 6, 2008)

Having small beasts of burdin.. is not a luxury. Many countries it is their only means of getting around..or any kind of help.

Just ours get wormed and such because we can afford it.

If I could...I would get around and use mine more. They really like having a job.

I think it is harder for people that living in cities. They can't grow their own food..if something goes south.

4 years DH was bounced around in jobs.. all because they were sending that work overseas. Only thing that kept us going was because I had Sheep, goats, chickens, ducks, a big kitchen garden and Orchard with 25 fruit trees. If we did not have that...we would of starved and it is no joke. We ate the withers and sold a lot of my breeding stock..more than I would have other wise.

We managed to hold onto the house,, I had to sell my truck. Being out of the Navy we did not have much at the time because it was easier to move...and the Navy always broke everything.

We had only basic phone..local. No long distance. Was cheaper to buy a card.

Had to have basic internet because all jobs want you to apply online now a days.

No eletric was used..except for the Frig. No lights were used. We never went out to eat...rarely went anywhere. Did have a year pass for the Tacoma Zoo I had to let laps.

Oh.. we could strip things down again,, in some ways I would not mind. But we are not set up as well at this farm yet.

The young Fruit trees need another 4 to 5 years before they can feed us.. and the garden is just clay..we are amending it but it takes time to make soil that produces well.

I could feed the horses,, we have enough land.

But I would not want to give up my special Van. I got it after I broke my back...as I still can't ride in normal cars.

We have a small house, nothing fancy, sheds need to be replaced but we can't afford it right now. We do not eat out hardly at all because both DS and I have some pretty major food allergies.

Only time we go anywhere is to meet up with the miniature horse crowd and go once a year to the Japanese tree sale.

As far as spending and doing stuff..we are pretty low key. Also can't afford too.

Why you say...am I rambling on like this? Because I am worried. A Company bought out DH division at Intel. And the Boss they decided to use is a..



horse turd. The job which is one of only 5 in the country that can do it, one being DH... might be going overseas.

We don't need this right now.

I very, very tired of this kind of stuff going on and is a sore spot with me. :arg!





Right now they are sending him to NC... to do testing over there.

We sure can't afford to move..even though I have family there. And I do not want us to live in different states again. Had to when DH finally got a full time job with Intel..is the whole reason we moved to this farm. 6 months.. I lived at the old farm and he lived on his families Farm in Dallas OR. That was hard..and very spendy..keeping two households.

OR was the only place he could get a job. So we moved.

America needs to wake up.. or we will be owned by another country soon. We need to do what is right here first, before the Gov sticks their fingers in all the other pies in the rest of the world.Yes,,I already know they are doing it.

Other wise... all the good jobs will be in other countries..and we will have more and more poor people because all the good jobs have gone to other parts of the world. Only the very rich or people from other countries can afford land and the rest of us................become the new 3rd world country.

Sorry to get so Personal.. .. but it is as I said... a very sore spot with me.


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## CyndiM (May 6, 2008)

I shop at wal-mart and like my clean, friendly store. Wal-Mart is NOT the only store in this country that buys it's goods from China or Bangladesh!

I don't know about other parts of the country but here in Iowa (Iowa City area) workers start at $8.00 per hour and *they also have benefits*. My daughter worked for wal-mart while she was going to college and continued working part time for a few years after she got a teaching job, eleven years total. She started in CA then transfered here. I have a daughter-in-law that has been working for wal-mart for about seventeen years now, and guess what she has benefits for her whole family and she makes over $15 per hour. I don't understand where the "rumor" started that wal-mart employes have no benefits. My daughter had them back in 1991 when she started with them, before she was married and added her husband then daughter.

The biggest gripe some people have about Wal-Mart is the workers don't want a union and that ticks off those who want them to join one.


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## hobbyhorse23 (May 7, 2008)

Jill said:


> To 99.9% of the world's population, owning a miniature horse or pony "just for fun" is an unimaginable excess.


Noooo,



that's owning a big horse!



Owning a miniature is being frugal and thrifty- the least possible amount of equine you can have and still own a horse!







Shari said:


> Having small beasts of burdin.. is not a luxury. Many countries it is their only means of getting around..or any kind of help.Just ours get wormed and such because we can afford it.


Well, that's true if we USED them as beasts of burden; very few people here do. Sorry about the situation with your husband!

Leia


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## Shari (May 7, 2008)

Thank you Leia.

Will tell you, Maggie loves doing work. She doesn't like when we don't do things.





But you are right,, ours do not have to work to death..so they have it pretty good too.


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## Jill (May 7, 2008)

Leia, you probably have a point BUT I spend more $$$ on my shorties than my biggies









(Don't tell Rocket!)


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## Leeana (May 7, 2008)

You do your thing, i'll do mine



.

..i think that is basically what this comes down to.


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## RockRiverTiff (May 7, 2008)

kaykay said:


> I remember living in a small town in illinois with a locally owned grocery store that i adored. everyone knew my name and my kids. the meat cutter knew just how I liked our steaks and chops cut and even had great cooking tips. Then about 20 miles away in the next town walmart came in. The store owner was okay though because it was just a walmart. Then a couple years later they announced it would be remodeled to become a super walmart. I saw the resignation in the owners eyes. He hung in there as long as he could but they closed 2 years later. It was so sad. I knew then an era was over.


This is exactly what's happening around here. And yes, I recognize this is inevitable in our system, but it's sad to see the small towns gutted, even if they're doing it to themselves.



Jill said:


> Well, my opinion as I said before is that there is not a good future for American manufacturing. We're in a global economy and the reality is there are millions of workers in the world who will do the job for a tiny fraction of what American workers wll do it for. That's really only half the equation. The other half is that the American public in general will not PAY the cost it would require if these products were made by high cost American workers.


This is true too, but quite sad. My question is, what job DOES have a good future in America? It's not just manufacturing we're outsourcing, and with American students performing so poorly in school when compared to their counterparts in other developed countries, I wonder where our advantage is now. The area I live in now used to be built around manufacturing, but the steel mills closed up (leaving the most disgusting mess you can imagine on the riverfront), and while it's easy to say the future lies in better educating our children, what is the future for these factory workers? It's no wonder we're seeing foreclosures sky rocket when middle class jobs are disappearing so rapidly.



mininik said:


> On the other end of the spectrum, if the rest of 'em could just get up off their dead asses and do something other than make babies to raise welfare money the same could be said there, too.


I wish they'd bring back the Works Progress Administration.



Jill said:


> _PS anyone reading this who has horses is indulging in an extreme luxury. It's been 100 years since anyone "needed" a horse. Forget the fancy coffees... us with horses are spending big bucks JUST for enjoyment._


Ah, but my horses are American made. Don't you know that's why I'm willing to spend so much extra money on them?







CyndiM said:


> I don't know about other parts of the country but here in Iowa (Iowa City area) workers start at $8.00 per hour and *they also have benefits*... I don't understand where the "rumor" started that wal-mart employes have no benefits.
> 
> The biggest gripe some people have about Wal-Mart is the workers don't want a union and that ticks off those who want them to join one.


Getting back on topic (sorry everybody), our minimum wage in Illinois is $7.50. Wal-Mart starts most of their employees out at...$7.50. That's why people complain about the wages. They get the most business in town and still pay the lowest possible wages. And as a former Wal-Mart worker myself, I can attest that getting benefits is not easy. They do offer them automatically to full-time employees, so at the Wal-Mart I worked at they just hired everyone on as part-time and scheduled them for exactly 34 hours every week (the full-time cutoff). Then they would call you in for more hours later in the week.

The gripe too is not that Wal-Mart workers "don't want a union," it's that they're not allowed to have one. In the break rooms they actually have signs advising employees to contact management if someone approaches them about unions, and as part of training you watch a video on why employees shouldn't want to join unions. I'm not for or against unions either way, but a work force of that size should have the option.

Whoo! Sorry for all the talking guys, but as I see the effects of the global economy on our local economy every day, it's a topic that's very close to my heart. I realize that Wal-Mart is not the beginning and end of the problem, but as the biggest example of it it's easy to target.


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## Erica (May 7, 2008)

I haven't read all this just skimmed a bit.......

But as far putting this in "horse terms" which is the way my brain thinks....all the time.

Wal-Mart = buying a horse from sales/auctions/even good ones....not just talking about salebarn auctions;

Local/Organic/Family Market or shop = buyer from a breeders farm

How many of us on here wouldn't love to get a good deal? A steal? I mean we post about it all the time, look at the steal I got on this mare at such and such sale, or it's a buyers market by looking at sale prices....I would have bought a truck load at those prices.

That same horse may cost more at the buyers farm, where you get to see it before hand, ask extended questions, talk to someone personable with the product/horse for sale, it becomes a more intimate situation.

Where at the sale it's more informal see what you get, sometimes don't know the background on the product/horse. You may be getting a mare that foals and has them registered, but is a horrible mother, or a stallion that is very agressive ext.

That said I do shop at Walmart, do I shop there exclusively no.....we buy produce during growing season from local growers, and shop at other local stores too.


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## Minimor (May 7, 2008)

My horses are a necessity, not a luxury...without my little horses I would probably be on heavy duty meds for depression or worse. I long ago learned that the Minis are a great antidote for job related stress! Therapy horses do not count as luxuries.





(And no, I'm not inclined to give up my horses and my job to go & work at Wal-Mart instead!



)

Erica's comparison of Wal-Mart = salebarn...I'd have to say that her comparison is more suited to Superstore, at least around here. Our Wal-Mart is at least agreeable about returns/exchanges. Superstore is not user friendly when it comes to returns....I would liken it to an auction mart, now that you mention that comparison! (But you should see the people shopping in our local Superstore; it's always crowded compared to Wal-Mart)


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## Jill (May 9, 2008)

A Walmart spokesperson is on the CBS Morning Show right now, and Walmart is donating $500,000 to America's Second Harvest, which I think is pretty nice for a "bad guy".


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## nootka (May 9, 2008)

Yes, it's nice that they're doing that. Too bad they refused to do it for a long time.

I think they got shamed into doing it to save their image, but whatever works.

Yes, it DOES come down to "you do what you want, and I do what I want" BUT it's nice to think that people know what goes on behind the scenes and think about how it affects us in the long run.

I don't approve of their overall business practices, the stores here are dirty and depressing and the people that work there have the air of despair about them. I can't handle it.

I have a lot of great alternatives and in the cases where they cost me more, well, I wait until I can find them as cheap (or cheaper) and buy there. I do not drive around from store to store seeking bargains, I would rather do without than waste the fuel and time to do that.

Anyway, this one got people thinking and I appreciate everyone's inputs and point of view.

Liz M.


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## Sonya (May 9, 2008)

As I said before I do not like wal-mart...every one I've been in is dirty and the aisles are so crunched together you can barely move.

As for the employees...my Mom works in one in Pennsylvannia and they have treated her very very well. she gets around 10$/hour and benefits and she is only part-time (2 days week) She is not in good health but they accomidate her all the time...giving her the time off she needs, etc...perhaps each store is different, but they have been good to her in Meadville, PA


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## Mercysmom (May 10, 2008)

Minimor said:


> That's how my shopping at Wal-Mart is--it's very specific, and items are purchased there only because they are so much cheaper. I really don't care for Wal-Mart--it's just too big & kind of cluttered & much too busy, but I cannot afford to not shop there for certain specific items.
> 
> How many items do you order from Jeffers or e-bay instead of buying those items at your local tack stores???


Agreed - and Jeffers and eBay have been helpful to me in reducing costs...and WalMart for the things I can get a bit for inexpensively (we do buy some things in bulk and the local BJs is far from us) but the lines and crowds make it less than desirable unless I have to go to Lowe's next door and then I can "kill two birds with one stone."

We have a mom & pop grocery store in town and I end up buying there a lot of times as our town is tiny, a couple and their daughter run it and it is convenient but I do pay more... would probably pay it in fuel driving to the WalMart which is probably about 12 miles away or more.

On that note - I am trying to grow my own produce again this year...my soil is very poor clay and we fortify it with aged manure but I am doing things differently - I let the potbelly pigs turn the soil for me and eat the weeds before planting and my cucumbers and strawberries are being done in homemade growing bags ( a fiber feed bag that normally holds 40 lbs of alfalfa cubes (made in Canada




) filled with peat wool and hang up can host 25 strawberry plants and they are thriving and the seeds I am starting are actually growing into flowers this year instead of damping off! I have three poppy plants that made it from peat pot inside to outdoors in a pot to get to a size to thrive. This way, I can eat something "Made in the USA."





Denise

Silversong Farm


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## LGahr (May 14, 2008)

I found this topic extremely interesting. We all share the same discomfort with Wal-Mart for a variety of reasons. They sell cheap--they sell disposable merchandise--they are staffed with people that are also treated as "disposable" and we, the customers, suffer the consequences.

I will go Wal-Mart when I have no alternative and because of the "Wal-Mart mentality" my options are getting fewer and fewer. What is the answer? I sure wish I knew--I have way too much "stuff" so I

would be happy to pay an extra dollar or two and only buy quality products and buy only what I really need.

Disgruntled workers urinating on produce---poor quality meat from unknown sources---imported inferior quality merchandise from Countries who are not "American" friendly---plenty of reasons not to shop there.

We have all heard the horror stories for years now. So give me some options........I want to be part of the solution!


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## Jill (May 14, 2008)

There must be a wide range of quality when it comes to the Walmart stores across the country. If "my" Walmart was like those some of you have -- dirty, nasty groceries, rude employees -- I'd not shop there, either. The one I go to is nice and it is actually my favorite by far place to get groceries.


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## Pepipony (May 14, 2008)

I live rurally, its a 25 mile drive to the closest town. It has a super Wal mart ( I worked in the smaller one for a decade) , HEB, Bealls, Cato, TSC and a few smaller stores. Nothing big at all, no mall, no movies etc. I try to watch what I buy, but its not easy. If its not Chinese, its cambodian, no matter what store I shop. If I want a larger town its a 150 mile round trip, and with todays fuel prices, just not worth it. Wal Mart in and of itself is not bad, it employes or subsidises many american jobs. I do agree they need to get away from over seas merchandise. BUT, at the same time, they wouldnt sell it if people wouldnt buy it.

While I worry about chinese products etc, I worry more that China has funded Bush's War. People freak over their merchandise, but dont seem to see that China is Bush's personal bank account.


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## Southern_Heart (May 14, 2008)

I counted most.. I might have missed a few Wal-Marts in the San Antonio area and there are 18.

How ever San Antonio is a big place. I don't see stores closing down because of them as really San Antonio is booming with business of all kinds and growing by the day.

There are so many stores and malls there that you can choose where ever you want to shop. I have gone into the malls there and they are always crowded with people. So Walmart isn't getting all the business.

From what wal marts I have been in, they are very very clean and the service has always been good and the employees have always been helpful and nice.

My closest wall mart is about 20 miles from here as I live south of San Antonio in the boonies!

Do I shop there. Yep!


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## horseplay (May 14, 2008)

Our Walmart is very clean, employees are very friendly and the mood inside is not in the least bit depressing. There are still 4 other grocery stores that do well and this is in a small town. I noticed that since Walmart has come here, 12 or so years ago, that it made the other local stores pay closer attention to how they do bussiness. They try harder to please, run sales and keep there stores up better. Walmart has brough many jobs here and I know several people that have been working for Walmart many years and have nothing but good to say about the company. Many of these people would not have a chance to have health insurance if it weren't for Walmart. There are so many other things that top my list as bad for our country and our children, Walmart doesn't even make my top 20.


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## nootka (May 14, 2008)

> bad for our country and our children, Walmart doesn't even make my top 20.


Nope, they just sell the majority of the lead-tainted and rat poison-tainted toys, pet food and who knows what else?

Like I said, I don't like their business practices as a whole, and the stores in this region have proven repeatedly to be "icky."

They just won't have my business. I really wasn't aware there were "clean" Wal-Marts, as I guess I have a bad taste in my mouth that won't go away unless they take some major steps.

I laugh a little thinking about Sam Walton's initial principles in starting his business. "Buy American" yeahhhh...right!

Still, this was an interesting and civil discussion. Thanks!

Liz


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## Pepipony (May 14, 2008)

What about all the american made products they sell? Not all are foreign. As for the rat poison, you would be SHOCKED to death to see what 'we' do to our products, how many beef recalls have their been?? Spinach? Anyone remember them? So we then in turn dont buy anything from the US because we have problems as well? Anyone see a parked grain train destined for food plants? Ever see the mass amounts of mice and rats that come out of them? I agree that lead tainted things arent a good idea. However, to label one entire group for their mistakes, and not labelling every group ( insert american products for their own problems) is rather hypocritical.


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## Shari (May 14, 2008)

Yes, there are poorly made American things sadly. Like the makers have no pride.

But I do wish there were more choice offered, which I do not see much of.

As for clean Walmart stores...having been all over the country..I have seen clean and polite ones but those kind are not around here.


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## horseplay (May 14, 2008)

Yup, lots of lead tainted toys everywhere, I am not sure Walmart has sold the most though, the hundreds of $ stores and Kmart have sold their share. As far as pet food, look at a list, there are dozens upon dozens of high end foods that have been recalled, names that Walmart does not sell. Like I said Walmart is not even in my top 20. I just can't see only mentioning the negatives when there are positives also. But what do I know



.


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## PrestigeMiniHorses (May 15, 2008)

I have been thinking here lately about how to respond to this.. I love ya Liz but I beg to defer. I love WalMart and will always love them I think. I have family that works there and they love it too. I have never found anything wrong with walmart. I see that alot of people on here wont get produce from them. I don't eat that much of it here so usually if I need it I get it whereever. Usually local streetside vendors here in town. Meat I get there if I need it. We don't eat that much of it though. But I love going there because there's no other place where you can drop the car off to get the tires rotated and the oil changed, drop the pictures off to get them developed and shop for everything else all at the same place. Our small town doesn't actually have a WalMart so I usually drive down to Poway to go there. We have a KMart but I don't like it near as much as I like WalMart......As being that we are a single income family we can get everything we need without breaking the budget either. I am a penny pincher so every cent counts. We take care of everything we have so everything it lasts alot longer.

But as for WalMarts being clean..I dont think I have ever walked into a bad one before. All the employees are usually great to be around and very helpful too....


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## Pepipony (May 17, 2008)

I started with Wal Mart back in '88, when Sam was alive and they were HUGE into buy American. He passed and things changed, slowely but surely. One big problem they had was labeling a store as just a bad store, then they would send their 'bad' management there, guess to weed them out, but then wonder why those stores remained 'bad'. They finally understood they needed to get good management back in, but sadly, they seem to be back into sending bad management in droves to certain stores. Thus, the dirty stores.

If I didnt shop at Wal Mart ( I live rurally) I would spend a couple hundred more each month than I do. People around here are likely on a fixed income, especially the retirees and for them, Wal Mart isnt a choice, its a cold hard fact.


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## susanne (May 18, 2008)

As with so many things, the common attitude seems to be that everyone does it, so therefore it is no longer wrong.

While I have little choice but to buy prescriptions there (which kills me, as my grandfather and uncle owned a small pharmacy for many, many years), I try not to buy anything else -- rarely are their prices lower than, say, Fred Meyer.

Actually, Liz and Shari, the St. Helens WalMart is a beacon of cleanliness and order compared to the S.E. Portland store -- that one is an absolute nightmare, and tparking is a TRULY life threatening endeavor. If you don't get mowed down walking to or from the store, when you try to back out, some meth-head mom lets her child run behind your car...

I've heard that the oh-so-lovely St. Helens WalMart will soon be replaced by a Super WalMart, and the old, smaller store will become a Lowes.

But then, my attitude sucks these days. This is one more reason I consider myselfr a left-wing survivalist...the more I know of humans, the more I love my animals!


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## Jill (May 18, 2008)

Then there are people like me -- who do not feel shopping at Walmart is wrong, that Walmart is not bad for the Country, and have a nice, clean Walmart with pleasant employees in which to shop



If I think something is wrong, I usually don't do it. It is a little beyond me that so many here feel their opinion (Walmart is bad for the Nation) is shared by every Walmart shopper, and that those individuals shop there despite the fact that they know it's wrong





Ironic as it is, many of the people on this thread who have the exact opposite point of view form mine on this matter are actually some of my favorite members. I guess though I will not be bumping into them when I am doing my grocery shopping at Walmart on Sunday mornings


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## mininik (May 18, 2008)

I'll be the one out front picketing, Jill...



(JK!)


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## bingo (May 18, 2008)

Jill said:


> It is a little beyond me that so many here feel their opinion (Walmart is bad for the Nation) is shared by every Walmart shopper, and that those individuals shop there despite the fact that they know it's wrong


I have to say I am a it shocked by this as well. Seems like most are sure something is wrong so the rest of us are either 100 percent shamefully walking thru the doors or are gleefully excited that we are creating/participating in the total downfall of America.

Quite frankly I find that approach completely arrogant and well dare I say ignorant.


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## Minimor (May 18, 2008)

> As with so many things, the common attitude seems to be that everyone does it, so therefore it is no longer wrong.


 While there are many things in this world that are wrong, shopping at Wal-Mart isn't one of them IMO.
As I said, it's not my favorite store, but when it saves me so much money on certain items, yeah, I'm going to shop there, and no, I don't feel guilty about that!

When I look at all the stores I do shop at, I have to wonder how most of them are really all that different from Wal-Mart? I don't guess I shop at too many mom & pop stores. What exactly is a mom & pop store anyway? Safeway? I wouldn't say so. It's a big chain, yet shopping at Safeway is acceptable from what I read here? They sell many of the same products that Wal-Mart offers. Superstore? Not hardly. Future Shop? Visions? Payless Shoes? Giant Tiger?

I did go into a mom & pop store here last week--a little locally owned shoe store that does have very good shoes, most of them very high priced. I couldn't find a single pair of shoes that fit me--I take a size 11, and not a narrow 11--they had very few pairs that were larger than 9, and of the few they had none fit me because of either the style (I can't wear heels because of my back) or because they were narrow. I looked at Wal-Mart and at Payless Shoes. Payless shoes had the best selection & I found a pair there. Yes, made in China, but they fit me & they were comfortable, which is my prime concern when it comes to buying shoes. Should I have just gone barefoot until the mom & pop store finally got in something that fit me? I don't think so! I'm pleased with my purchase, and will happily admit it. If the local economy collapses because I shopped at Payless, then I'd suggest that there's something bigger than me that is wrong. If the mom & pop local shoe store wants to compete with the "cheap" chains, they need to at least get in a better selection of larger sizes. I know more and more people that say they need bigger shoes, yet the "good" shoe stores constantly say that they don't sell many of the larger sizes, so they don't get many in. Well, as I see it, if they don't get many larger sizes in, then they can't sell them?

Friday afternoon I tried to buy a mouse for my computer. I went into the local office supply store (I suppose the closest thing to a mom & pop office supply store in this town, only to find they had a very poor selection--nothing at all that would work with my old computer unless I wanted to pay upwards of $80 for a laser mouse, which I _think _ would have worked. I simply don't have $80+ for a mouse, so I went racing for Wal-Mart, not sure they'd even have much selection. Then I saw the Future Shop sign & went in there--and got exactly what I wanted on sale for $20. I know there have been complaints about Future Shop taking away business, but I believe they are filling a need. Maybe some would pay $80 for that mouse if that's all that was available, but for me, if that's all that was available then I'd have simply gone without & made do with my half-functional old mouse. The local mom & pop store still wouldn't have got my business!

So, yeah, sometimes these big chain stores are simply filling a need that isn't being met by the smaller "local" stores. I for one am not ashamed to be seen shopping in Wal-mart!


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## mininik (May 18, 2008)

Reading labels, it's interesting how many items sold in Petsomething stores are made in China or other places out of this country. And yes, many of the same products are also sold in Walmart (for less). We even have a couple "mom and pop" petstores in town and they are both run down, spendy and offering the same products (for much more). It's difficult, but I am usually able to find what I want, made in the US, but sold at Petsomething... I'm just not sure how much of an impact this makes, as all of these places are still selling loads of junk from China at varying prices.


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## Shaladar (May 18, 2008)

I have to say, I don't have a problem shopping at WalMart either. I drive a 1 ton 4 door Dodge Duelly, and it is easier for me to park in the slanted slots at Walmart. Poor reason? Nope, not to me....LOL....also, since I do drive a "big 'ol fuel hog", (actually, when not pulling a trailer, it gets about 17-18 mpg)I try to plan my trips, and our nice new Super WM in Dixon is right by the Feed Store I go to, and also is right along the freeway where I buy my Safeway diesel.

Our SuperWM in Dixon is big, bright, clean and the people are pleasant..and they have just about everything I could want in one stop. The one in Vacaville is pretty old, so not as fancy and is more crowded, but still well run.

We do shop out at Travis Air Force Base, but it takes 25-30 min to go there.

We are retired military and with 10 horses, 4 dogs, geriatric chickens and approx. 10-15 feral cats that I feed canned and dry food to, I save where I can. And WM can't be beat around here for canned cat food prices. I use 4 cans a day plus dry food.....so it adds up pretty darn fast !!!!

Sue


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## Charley (May 18, 2008)

I was watching the BBC channel this morning. It was not about Walmart, but about five young English people who went to India and went into a garment sweat shop to do a documentary. They talked to the people who ran the shop and the workers. They tried to make five garments instead of the eighteen that the workers make each day and could not get one to pass inspection. The people are working 18 hours a day and sleep on the floor of the sweat shop. They send the little money that they do make home to their families. We do not understand the poverty that exists there.



It just feels so wrong to shop in stores that have made so much money for investors at the expense of those living in such poor conditions.


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## susanne (May 19, 2008)

Minimor said:


> > As with so many things, the common attitude seems to be that everyone does it, so therefore it is no longer wrong.
> 
> 
> While there are many things in this world that are wrong, shopping at Wal-Mart isn't one of them IMO.
> As I said, it's not my favorite store, but when it saves me so much money on certain items, yeah, I'm going to shop there, and no, I don't feel guilty about that!



While it may seem like a fine point, the "wrong" I refer to here is WalMart, not its shoppers...except for those who let their children run behind my car.


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