# Sulky style cart balance question



## shelterwood (Aug 2, 2011)

Hello all....

I have a quick question about my little training sulky and balance. This is an older metal sulky that I got pretty cheap from a woman in Vermont who said she drove her Welsh ponies with it. If anything I thought it would be too big/high for my 40" mares. It was a bit long in the shafts for my girls, so we cut off about 4" of shafts with good effect (I know, but it was a really cheap purchase, and just for ground driving and training, I would never do this to a nice, well built cart!!) The shafts now sit nicely at the point of shoulder. It has 20" wheels on it currently.

Here's my question, and maybe you all will need pictures to help me here, but when my mare trots, the shafts bounce up and down quite a bit. I'm wondering if maybe I need to drop my shaft loops down, or maybe the whole cart needs like a 24" wheel, or both. Or maybe the whole cart is simply not well-built, although it is a sturdy little thing, simple in it's design. It has stirrups for my feet, and all in all actually feels pretty balanced.

All my driving experience comes from large horses and basically 4 wheel carts and wagons, not 2 wheeled sulky style rigs. But, I don't think I should be bouncing around like that, and worry that it is putting pressure on my mare's back/saddle.

I also know the risks of driving a green horse in a sulky like this, but be assured we are in an enclosed area, on my property, and going SLOW....with a helmet. And my mare has been extensively ground driven and has proved so far, over two years to be pretty dependable (do i sound like an idiot, someone tell me!!) Really, I think I'm being pretty cautious, and if I could find an EE cart that fit these misfit 40" ponies, I would be using it!!

I will try to get my husband the reluctant horseman to take some pics or even a video of us....we'll see!

Any advice is welcomed!!

Katie


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## drivin*me*buggy (Aug 2, 2011)

Does your harness have an overgirth (belly band that buckles down) or wrap straps? My first guess is that these need to be tightened up. Pix or video would be very helpful though




A cart with bigger wheels would be good too as a 20" wheel for a 40" horse is kind of small, but since that's what you have now, lets start with checking the belly band or wrap straps,depending on your harness.

Angie


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 2, 2011)

Hi Katie! I don't think you sound like you're being stupid at all. You're aware of the risks and that's the important part.





As for the shafts, yes, pictures would be helpful. There's several different balance issues that could cause that sort of bouncing and we can't be sure which it is without seeing your setup. It could actually be that the shafts are so well balanced they're floating but your shaft loops are too small so they are slapping into the shaft top and bottom with each stride! That's what I finally figured out my carts are doing.





Leia


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## Sandee (Aug 2, 2011)

I agree with Leia. Also it may be that the cart was balanced and the 4" you cut off of the shafts makes it tilt toward the back with your weight in it (and the shafts rise).


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## shelterwood (Aug 3, 2011)

Hi all,

Sandee, I did consider that perhaps the cutting of the shafts might be an issue, but the cart was doing this before I cut off the shafts, and otherwise it was not usable with my mares, the shafts were practically hitting them in the face when asked for a turn. So I'm not sure if that was the issue. I was aware that this could be a problem when I was chopping them off, but the cart cost me $80, so the risk was worth it to make it even a little useful for training. What I am really after is two hyperbikes, but that's next year it's looking like. I had to buy myself a new car, which most people would be excited about, and I am, but would have rather had my first hyperbike!!

Leia, I don't think my shaft loops are too small, I'm thinking I need to lower them. Do I want to see essentially a straight line from cart to horse, in terms of my shafts? I ask because mine angle up as they run from the cart to the horse's front end. This is what made me think I needed to lower the shaft loops and raise the cart overall. When I sit down in the cart, without my feet in the stirrups, it wants to tip back, and the shafts rise. Does that help? It is only once my feet weight the stirrups and therefore the shafts that they settle into place.

Angie, now I can't remember what you said!! Oh, I do not have wrap straps, I have the overgirth style harness. I am dreaming of a comfy fit harness for both my girls, but alas, small steps. The harness I have is not terrible or cheap, but it is not perfect either. Not even sure of the brand name, bought it used from a friend. It does fit though and was only used once and was too big for her smaller minis.

You guys are so great and supportive!! I really appreciate it, and hope to get some pics tonight to post.....

Katie


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## RhineStone (Aug 3, 2011)

In most carts, you want the shafts to be level. Yes, lower your tugs and see if that helps. You can also have someone hold your cart while you sit in it to see where it balances.

Myrna


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## Carriage (Aug 3, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> In most carts, you want the shafts to be level. Yes, lower your tugs and see if that helps. You can also have someone hold your cart while you sit in it to see where it balances.
> 
> Myrna


Thank you for using the word most. Some are designed purposely to run up"hill" to the horse. It does depend on the overall engineering of the cart and what it is you are trying to achieve with that design. Also more shafts run up-hill than most folk realize. It would appear miss Myrna that yours does as well in the picture of your avatar. Perhaps its an optical delusion but it does look like they do. Throw a level on the shaft in draft and you will know for sure. Working with the mini donkey people this year it became appearant that they thought that the shafts always have to be level.

We do it on purpose for a couple of reasons, both of which benefit the horse, less cagey balance in motion and approximating axle draft.

Bb

Graham Carriage Works


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## RhineStone (Aug 3, 2011)

Yup, those double bend shafts on my Phaeton Cart do run uphill, and that is because then the heel of the shafts are level as is the seat they are attached to through the springs. If the shafts were level, the seat would be angled down and put me in a bracing position (not to get in a discussion about wedges and the like



which that vehicle was not designed for). But NOBODY has a cart like mine, yet.



And yes, we have other vehicles that require the shafts to run uphill, like our marathon vehicles and the Runabout. But most mini drivers don't have vehicles like that.

I made that statement for the purpose of simplicity with most simple metal carts that most mini drivers have. What we definitely don't want in all carts is for the shafts to run _downhill_.





Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 3, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> And yes, we have other vehicles that require the shafts to run uphill, like our marathon vehicles and the Runabout. But most mini drivers don't have vehicles like that.


Actually I'd say the majority of mini drivers do have that sort of vehicle because most of them have show carts or jog cart-style vehicles!



The shafts are very much intended to run uphill on those (as I'm sure you know- "written more for the masses."



)

Speaking of that, Katie, with the sort of vehicle you are using you most assuredly would NOT want the shafts running level. Sulkies are meant to go uphill to balance and something with 20" wheels on 40" mares would be down around their ankles with the shafts level. You can try lowering them if you feel they raise the vehicle past its tipping point but it sounds like your cart may truly be floating and that makes the "slapping tug loops" thing more likely. My Bellcrown floats perfectly at a walk but at a trot does that bouncing thing and it's not so much the shafts themselves moving up and down as the horse rising and falling between them. It's a terrible sensation though!



Slapslapslapslapslap....

I've had the same thing happen with the Frontier and tried everything from lowering the tugs to raising them and nothing worked. The frustrating part is I think I'd worked out what the problem was but in the two years I haven't been driving Kody I've forgotten what the fix is!



I believe I need to adjust the seat further back so the shafts float at a little higher point. I know that since I've had the ponying assembly sticking out off the back of the cart I haven't had the tugs slapping anymore.

The Hyperbike was suddenly doing it this spring as well and I went through two competitions that way before finally adjusting the seat slider in frustration and having it magically go away.



I hadn't tried it because I hadn't changed the settings from what used to work (forgot it could have happened during transport!) and I thought they were already balanced right. The problem is once again I'm not sure if I moved the balance point forward or back.





*Sigh* I'm not much help today, am I?

Leia


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## RhineStone (Aug 3, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> RhineStone said:
> 
> 
> > And yes, we have other vehicles that require the shafts to run uphill, like our marathon vehicles and the Runabout. But most mini drivers don't have vehicles like that.
> ...


I was referring more to our 4-wheeled marathon vehicles with the closed loop shafts and our Runabout with the bent elbow shafts that attach to the vehicle pretty much at the axle. The mini marathon carts would also fit this bill, but again not too many people (in the big scheme of things) have those styles of carts. Yes, some show carts are probably designed to run uphill (depending on the builder), but around here most novice mini people don't have show carts. They have EE carts.

But getting back to the topic, sitting in the cart and seeing where it balances will help the OP find at what level the tugs need to be. Maybe the cart balances way too high for the pony. You'll have to try it, including leaning back and forth in the seat to put more weight forward or back. Of course, that would be a challenge in a sulky.

Myrna


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## shelterwood (Aug 3, 2011)

Wow! I think you guys might have gone over my head there a bit. I am going to try lowering my shaft loops next chance I have to actually hitch and drive. If that doesn't work, I have a friend who is a bicycle collector and may try throwing on a set of 24" wheels just to see if that helps. I knew the wheels were definitely on the small side for the size of my girls, but like I said, originally I thought that this cart would just be for ground driving and very little actual driving, but my budget has been severely effected by the purchase of a new car (my first ever NEW car!), so for now I am trying to stretch this cart into getting my mares used to driving around my property. Once I am actually ready to venture out to the trails, it will be with well built, and balanced carts. (Bob, I AM going to purchase hyperbikes, don't give up on me!!)

Leia, I looked at the cart tonight and do think it is floating at the walk, with my weight in it, and when we trot it does seem like it is the horse's movement that is causing the bouncing. If by chance this isn't a "balance" issue in the set-up, what other corrections are there? Am I misunderstanding your post? The seat is fixed, of course, so that is not an option here. When I lean forward a bit in the sulky, and therefore weight the shafts down, the bouncing stops. But, that puts weight on my mare's back, I'm thinking, and puts me in a less than comfortable (or safe) position.

Thanks again for all the help, my husband is working like crazy so no pictures yet, but maybe by this weekend.

Katie


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## RhineStone (Aug 3, 2011)

Actual bicycle wheels are not a safe option. They are not made for the sideways strain a cart puts on them. You could try them for size, but don't drive in them.

BTW, I don't type a lot in posts from my IPod. Takes way too long.

Myrna


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 3, 2011)

I have an older sulky with the quick hitch harness. I have experimented with the sulky as a horse and a driver, having a talking human as the horse



. Leaning back is better for the horse but it makes the shafts rattle in the metal latches of the quick hitch couplers. I've had this set up for several years, and called the manufacturer at the beginning to ask if this was normal. He said it is normal.

My horses have pulled me in the sulky many a mile and they seem quite happy with the shaft movement.

My set up was used in miniature horse racing. Perhaps someone who races full size horses can say if the shaft movement in sulkies is the same for large or small equines.

I enjoy my sulky a lot! It is great for excercise outings.

Bicycle wheels are not appropriate for driving vehicles, even light sulkies.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 4, 2011)

shelterwood said:


> Leia, I looked at the cart tonight and do think it is floating at the walk, with my weight in it, and when we trot it does seem like it is the horse's movement that is causing the bouncing. If by chance this isn't a "balance" issue in the set-up, what other corrections are there? Am I misunderstanding your post? The seat is fixed, of course, so that is not an option here. When I lean forward a bit in the sulky, and therefore weight the shafts down, the bouncing stops. But, that puts weight on my mare's back, I'm thinking, and puts me in a less than comfortable (or safe) position.


Well, there's nothing wrong with having a little weight on their backs as long as it isn't nasty, dragging, uncomfortable weight and on a narrow saddle. Well-distributed, well-balanced minimal weight is fine and a lot better than that infernal slapslapslapping!



If it puts you in a bad position then that's something else entirely. Can you take a picture of the cart on one of the mares standing in cross-ties or something? Just having a general idea of the relative heights of the parts and the construction of the vehicle would help with making better suggestions.

Leia


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## shelterwood (Aug 4, 2011)

Well, never fear, I am NOT going to drive with bicycle tires! I just figure if I can see the height adjustment and just sit in the cart etc with them on, I can see if it is worth my time to spend the money on good cart wheels of that same size. As I have said, I am saving my pennies for hyperbikes, because based on my research, that is what I need for tooling around the trails. I am not now or ever will be showing in driving, but strongly agree that good, well-made, SAFE equipment is at the top of my list.

Leia, my saddle is not narrow, and is probably over-padded. I will try to post pictures tonight....

Katie


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## LazyRanch (Aug 5, 2011)

Hi Katie

You have already got some great advice, but I thought I would toss in a little more. Being a newer driver, I have asked many of your questions and one thing that has really stood out for me is balancing my cart without the horse. I have (fortunately) a bench that is just about the right height for my horses. On this, I set the ends of my shafts, then sit in the cart. If the shafts start to lift, that's what they will do in the tugs, and I will be bouncing. If the shafts are being driven downward, they will sit to heavy in the tugs and more bouncing.

I also try to have someone around that can act as a furless version of the wee beasties. I have them hold the shafts and gauge the weight in them. I don't know if you have a seat adjustment, or maybe even a stirrup adjustment, to work with. Check Bob's HyperBike site - if you haven't just drooled over it already - there's a great shot of him perfectly balanced.

I would consider larger wheels, though.


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## paintponylvr (Aug 6, 2011)

Great subject and brings up questions I had myself... The responses are an awesome learning tool for me! Thanks all.

My contribution - I love training my ponies w/ my lightweight wooden shafted sulky! Yes, I think for all of our ponies the shafts are way too long (especially for my 38" mare at the withers) since it was meant for and came with a much larger Hackney, but it works for training and even pleasure driving. I'm looking at purchasing heavier tires w/ the hard rubber, no air to put on it so we can hit the trails. I, too, am working towards purchasing a "better" cart and have recently tried a couple of different types. Barring the occasional flat (w/ the rim liners put on by a bike shop that specializes in Mtn bikes, no-flat tubes and heavy duty moutain bike type outer tire) - we zip around at wild gallops practicing serpintines & tight curves for barrel racing and pole bending using the cart, drive at extended walks, working trot & extended trot for miles at a time (typical loop is 2.5 miles around my property on the main road - a little more than 5 miles down to the convenience store and back), and walk & trot work out on trails - at the Walthour-Moss Foundation in Southern Pines and other places around here. I find my sulky more comfortable than the metal easy entry w/ the same type wheels - balances better and handles the turning better. FUN!!

My sulky was introduced to me w/ a saddle, girth and wrap straps w/ no breeching. So saddle girth & wrap strap girth were very tight - weather in the arena or out on the trails. I did learn the "woe" of overtightening the wrap strap girth (severely galled & sore ponies), and have learned. My harness budget is also small - so went w/ my first, affordable nylon harness and took forever to learn how to adjust the shaft loops w/o a wrap straps. Hmm, I didn't understand the "float" at all - and really only started learning about that here! For me - not only was the float extreme w/ what I now know to be a poorly constructed harness but it was terrifying to me when the cart shafts would not just float but appear to flip up. I'd done my homework w/ the ponies - so none of mine were phased even when I'm sure my fear transmitted thru the lines... Right now, I've returned to a type of "brat" harness - a combination of hand braided pieces w/ either a surcingle or a decent training saddle w/ wrap straps - very adjustable for fit, has breeching and crupper etc. I currenty have some of that "slapslap" going on - WHEN - I go down the road at a working trot or extended trot (only on the flat, though?). The 5 differnt ponies I"ve driven - it wsn't a problem. IN FACT, it became similar to a metronome or bells - setting a great working cadence. I'm assuming that it wasn't a true up/down bounce w/ lots of weight on the saddles...

In trying out the differnt cart/shaft styles in OH, I still find that that float is problematic for me. I think that Kathy was amused by my clutch and grab - but also didn't understand the almost overwhelming fear that that "float" created when the shafts rose just a smidge in the shaft carriers (her pony is a welshx & seemed much larger than mine & at one point I truly felt that the cart would flip enuf to dump us out the back. OF course, it didn't move past the first smidge, but the damage could have already been done if I'd handled the lines. It really gave me a scare and I had a hard time relaxing after that). Her husband and I discussed the weight in the shafts and we decided that I would probably benefit from having an adjustment w/ slightly heavier weight on the saddle/shafts - rather than a "true float". That would prevent problems due to MY FEAR. As long as that weight is kept basic and OK for the ponies that were asked to carry it, we'd be fine. When I do get my new cart (s), be assured I will be getting help in hooking it up and determning where/how it should be adjusted.

My smallest purebred Shetland is 34" (not yet driving) w/ the range of 1/2 Shetlands going on up to 12.2 hh (currently - only 2 and not mature yet and almst too large for this cart now w/ no harness that will fit him either, LOL). While I considered having the shafts shortened on this cart, I decided to keep it the way it is - because it works for anything I want to put in it w/ harness adjustments. I don't think it will work for that smallest shetland for extended work - it will create too much weight in the saddle, I think. I weigh in (still, sigh) at more than 225 - so yes, this can be a concern.

Bit - at about 60 days of driving... Bit @ Rexs - here you can see how the shaft carriers & shaft wraps allow some shift for a cart during angled trails. With the original Hackney harness w/o breeching, this wouldn't have worked (didn't have sliding backband shaft carriers). While this harness is homemade and isn't ideal - it works for now. The neck strap has since been lengthened for this pony and new, wider, double layered shaft carriers (ah - but won't be able to slide) have been made... Need to do a better connection for the wrap strap on the girth so that it stays in the right place while still allowing it to slide back and forth w/o soring the pony.


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## paintponylvr (Aug 6, 2011)

Maybe I need to consider the hyperbike - though I'd really have to get used to being that close to my driving beastie... I'm used to being further back w/ my sulky that's too large for my shetties, LOL!!

Here's an angled pic of Stuffy to a jog cart that came with a 12 hh Hackney pony. Stuffy is 38" measured at the withers. Here is the pic Stuffy from the side. The one thing this sulky doesn't have yet is a single tree. That's next along w/ 2 differnt sized harnesses to accomodate my 38 - 42" sized shetlands. I think the furthest I've driven any one pony at any one time is about 6 miles in this rig, w/ most of that done at a trot...


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## RhineStone (Aug 8, 2011)

I don't believe that shafts should "float" in the tugs. I think a better term is " lightly rest". This idea that the shafts shouldn't touch the tug is false IMO and creates all sorts of problems. There is no possible way under all conditions that you can get the shafts to be surrounded by air and not end up with the problems and instability that the previous posted listed.

Myrna


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## shelterwood (Aug 10, 2011)

Hey everybody!

Sorry I've not responded....I got tangled in a ground bee nest and stung in my foot too many times to count. It was the most uncomfortable experience I've had in a long time! Anyway, thanks for the awesome responses. So, I have lowered my shaft loops and low and behold, the bouncing is a bit better. Especially at an easy jog, little bit of movement still at a more extended trot. So I do think it was the horse's movement that was hitting the bottom of the shafts and knocking them upwards.

I also leaned just a bit farther forward, or maybe just improved my posture overall. That seems to help too. I read in a post somewhere that one should actually be actively working while driving, which I have to admit, was a little bit of an aha moment for me. I grew up riding western pleasure and reining horses, and all my riding was done with subtle weight shifts and voice cues. I think english riders probably have a better grasp of the "active" sort of driving because they are a bit more engaged in contact with the horse's mouth and body than western pleasure or even reining riders are. Not that these events don't take high amounts of skill, it's just different ways of communicating, and driving seems to more resemble direct rein contact, and now I'm discovering body position and posture. so, I'm trying to learn, along with my horses (I know...). But I'm not a total greenhorn!!

One thing that came to mind, I don't have a singletree, just metal juts that I slip my traces over. Could the lack of movement there cause some of the movement in the shafts as the horse trots? Just a thought. I am going to bite the bullet and get some 24" wheels. After dropping the shaft loops with good effect, I'm thinking this will help even more. Any thoughts?

I sold my small EE cart, and so my fund for my first hyperbike has grown considerably. Maybe this fall!!

Someday I'll post pictures....I'm shy!

Katie


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## RhineStone (Aug 10, 2011)

shelterwood said:


> One thing that came to mind, I don't have a singletree, just metal juts that I slip my traces over. Could the lack of movement there cause some of the movement in the shafts as the horse trots?


By all means!


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## susanne (Aug 11, 2011)

If you recall with your EE cart (assuming it had a singletree), when your horse would trot, the singletree would move back and forth along in time with your horse's shoulders. That same rhythmic movement is now being transferred to your cart without benefit of a moving part.

Keep in mind, too, that lack of a singletree means uncomfortable rubbing for your horse's shoulders and chest.


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## shelterwood (Aug 11, 2011)

Aha! Well, I have always driven in carts with singletrees, so that must be part of it then. You guys must think I'm an idiot! On a positive note, at least all I've been doing with this sulky is short, slow training drives on level terrain. All this tells me is that I simply need to make the investment in good equipment, which I knew all along. Do most sulky style carts and jog carts have singletrees? I thought that perhaps the fixed trace holders were unique to this style cart.

Katie


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## RhineStone (Aug 11, 2011)

I don't think the lack of a singletree has anything to do with the style of the cart, only the expense of it. It costs more to put a singletree on. (Ironically, it is not that much....and I can't understand why some builders even build them that way considering the discomfort for the horse, like Susanne said.)

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Aug 11, 2011)

I believe it actually is something to do with the style of the cart- sulkies are the only type I've ever seen that routinely can be found without singletrees. (Yes, quality sulkies have them. Cheap carts of other kinds sometimes don't. But generally speaking, cheap sulkies are the most likely to come without them in my experience.) And yes, not having one might be contributing to your bounce. I drove my Hyperbike without a singletree for many years and was always hypervigilant about my horse's shoulders as I was concerned there would be soring but it never seemed to bother him no matter what kind of breastcollar I used. The cart was so light it simply wouldn't gall! I did eventually decide to press Bob to add one (which he graciously did) and it smoothed the ride cross-country by absorbing jounces and "oofs" from hitting bumps before they could be transmitted to the horse's shoulders but it had no effect on whether the shafts bounced in the tugs.

Many, many show carts come with the singletree so restricted it might as well not be there. Mine could barely move! I had to unstaple the restraining straps it came with, let them out, oil the singletree, then restaple them with enough slack to allow actual movement. I noticed a large improvement in my horse's stride after doing so as he was finally able to move his shoulders. He could stride out in the 30lb Hyperbike okay but a 76lb show cart with effectively no singletree was a different matter. I can't imagine asking him to pull something heavier without a singletree.

Leia


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## susanne (Aug 11, 2011)

I called once about a homemade EE cart on Craigslist. It looked nice, but I noticed it had no singletree. The woman informed me that mini carts NEVER have singletrees, as nobody ever drives minis more than around the yard.

Guess who did NOT buy that cart?


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## shelterwood (Aug 12, 2011)

Thanks everyone!

Yes, as I said this is a cheap sulky, although solid, and I do think it is rather old. That being said, it is light, maybe 40lbs, and my mares seem to have no trouble pulling it. However, I am only using it for training this year, so we have mostly been walking, with just a small amount of trotting, on even ground, so I have not seen any adverse effects from the lack of movement such as galling or soreness.

Leia, the singletree on my EE cart was the exact same way! I thought "what is the point of this, it hardly moves". I also took it all apart and oiled and replaced much less tight, and it worked so much better. Now if only my mares would have fit in that cart, we wouldn't be having this conversation!!

Katie


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## shelterwood (Aug 14, 2011)

Well, I've figured out of to post pictures from my cell phone, so I snapped a quick one of my sulky and will get one of my mare hitched later. Just trying to figure this out first!!

Katie


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