# Do You Think EINSTEIN Is A Dwarf?



## Jill (Apr 18, 2011)

Inquiring minds want to know...

This is a link to a recent thread discussing Einstein with pictures and videos included: http://www.miniature...howtopic=122765


----------



## ClickMini (Apr 18, 2011)

No I don't Jill, and I think you are being kind of rude about it.


----------



## Matt73 (Apr 18, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> No I don't Jill, and I think you are being kind of rude about it.


How is she being rude about it? She's just asking a question.


----------



## Jill (Apr 18, 2011)

Sorry if you think I'm being rude, Amy. I guess three or so topics by the same member promoting him in the recent past just were a bit annoying to me.

For the record, I have always thought he looked like a dwarf, and not what many breeders would strive to produce.


----------



## tagalong (Apr 18, 2011)

I feel that his scoliosis is but one indicator - and more issues will show up as he matures....


----------



## Reble (Apr 18, 2011)




----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 18, 2011)

I voted yes.

I thought he was the minute his baby pics were all over the internet and I still maintain my opinion today. And frankly, it's astonishing to me that some people whom I considered knowledgable breeders say they don't see it. Wow, beauty most certainly is in the eye of the beholder.

And as for Jill's question. Not "rude" in my opinion. Just asking what others think. Jill did not put this little dear out there for the public's consumption. His owners did. If they want the perks of flights around the country, hotel stays, notoriety (sp?), then they should be prepared for the other side of the coin. That's part of anyone's 15 minutes of fame.

Is he adorable? Absolutely. Is he a dwarf? We can't say for sure until there's a genetic test. Does he look like one to me? Absolutely. Would I dare use him for breeding? Never.

And if anyone wants to question my stance on dwarves and the breeding of such, just search the forum on Corona and I think you'll get a hint as to where I stand on it.

And anytime we (a collective we as is all of us) put a horse out there and hold it as the standard - good, bad or otherwise, we are making a statement about all miniatures. The general public does not have the knowledge to make a truly informed decision. So when someone says "isn't this little horse adorable?" "We are keeping him a stallion." etc., well that impacts us all. Jill, me, you, the next new mini owner, all of us.


----------



## ohmt (Apr 18, 2011)

I do not think he is a dwarf. Just because I don't doesn't mean I don't see his faults and think he should be bred. If he were mine he would be gelded, but i'll leave that choice to his owners and worry about my own horses/breeding program.


----------



## Kelsey - Vandy's Farm (Apr 18, 2011)

ohmt said:


> I do not think he is a dwarf. Just because I don't doesn't mean I don't see his faults and think he should be bred. If he were mine he would be gelded, but i'll leave that choice to his owners and worry about my own horses/breeding program.


I totally agree. I definitely see that he has some major confirmation faults and he shouldn't be bred. However, just because he is little and has some flaws does not make him a dwarf. I think we will know more as he matures. I do think he would look more dwarfy already though if he was one.


----------



## ClickMini (Apr 18, 2011)

My comment about rudeness was from a post on another thread. I don't think his owners are holding him up as "the standard," just that he is one cute little fella. I also don't feel that he should be bred, and I really don't think that is what they have in mind. MANY minis can't be gelded until they are well past age one. Will they geld him later? I would bet so. For now they are having fun with his uniqueness and I think that is fine. To each their own. I won't say anything more about this, I just really hate the judgement on individuals when they aren't doing anything to you. I love sharing my own minis, and if I had the opportunity to share them with the world, I think I would!


----------



## vickie gee (Apr 18, 2011)

I keep getting booted out by internal server error. Basically, I do not have a strong enough opinion either way. I am watching the poll though because I find it interesting. Accidentally posted in the other thread or maybe the internal server error grinch did.


----------



## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 18, 2011)

i think he's dwarf. even if he's not, he's got some serious confo issues that shouldnt be promoted, ignorant minds may think he's 'the norm' for the breed. IMO, i also dont find a horse with the back of a turtle 'cute'. i seriously think Einsteins owners just bought him for the publicity, lord knows they are milking it dry! for instance, his book about finding a friend. why not just go out and buy a 30" or under gelding?? but nope, they just HAVE to make a book about it





i just hope they realize that the horse wont dissapear after the press get bored, and that vet bills for a deformed horse can get quite costly. also, does anyone know how tall he currently is?


----------



## Jill (Apr 18, 2011)

Amy, you're more than welcome to find what I have to say rude. Take it as you find it, and don't lose anymore sleep over it than I will.

As to whether or not Einstein's owners will geld him -- as you elect to presume -- how could anyone but the owners really know? From my perspective, it's hard to have a lot of faith that this is their plan as he is being promoted as "the world's smallest stallion."

It seems to me like it would be a lot better for our breed if the best, not the "least", were held out to the public as an example of how wonderful our horses can be. Not many non-miniature horse owners realize how proportional and truly horse like our breed has become -- not to mention all that they can DO -- and that's because horses like Einstein and Thumbelina are paraded around to the public as the examples of our breed.

But, you know, as Dennis Miller used to say _"Of course that's just my opinion, I could be wrong."_


----------



## wwminis (Apr 18, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I voted yes.
> 
> I thought he was the minute his baby pics were all over the internet and I still maintain my opinion today. And frankly, it's astonishing to me that some people whom I considered knowledgable breeders say they don't see it. Wow, beauty most certainly is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> ...


I agree with Parmela 100% I've rescued many dwarfs over the years and this little guy IMHO is a dwarf! Only time will prove what we have been saying from the get go!

Bill


----------



## Miniv (Apr 18, 2011)

wwminis said:


> I agree with Parmela 100% I've rescued many dwarfs over the years and this little guy IMHO is a dwarf! Only time will prove what we have been saying from the get go!
> 
> Bill



Obviously this won't be a popular response, but I agree with Star Ridges Acres and Bill of wwminis. Einstein needs to be tested for sure.

Interestingly this question has been posted on the anniversary of Einstein, the Scientist's passing.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 18, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> For now they are having fun with his uniqueness and I think that is fine.


Amy,

I'm certainly not picking a fight with you. I always enjoy your posts and certainly LOVE your horses so no fighting here. But I would like to understand something you said. What, in your opinion, is his "uniqueness" as you put it? I'm trying for the life of me to understand what is different about him from 30 other foals that will be born in 2011. Other than his roached back and some other flaws, I see nothing unique other than when he was born his owners called the local newspaper. I would love some insight into what others see and find interesting (unique) about him.

Thanks!


----------



## ClickMini (Apr 18, 2011)

OK, folks. I would love to see some gorgeous miniature horse out there being promoted to the general public as well. Just how would you go about doing it, eh? What makes a horse "marketable" to the television stations, magazines, news media, etc? I don't think anyone has truly figured out how to bring a beautifully conformed miniature horse into the public eye, but it might behoove us all to figure it out!

And don't worry Jill, I won't lose any sleep.



 Just every now and then I feel we all might need a little reminder that we could be a little more sensitive. I just didn't see or understand your hostility toward the gal who posted about Einstein. If you don't like her posts, don't read them for heck sake!


----------



## ClickMini (Apr 18, 2011)

Parmela, IMO his uniqueness was his extremely small birth size.

I appreciate your approach to your question.



I also feel admiration for you and your herd, and I do understand where you are coming from. I just have a more "live and let live" attitude than some (most?) I guess! I wish I could go on GMA with Alladdin, LOL!


----------



## Jill (Apr 18, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> Just every now and then I feel we all might need a little reminder that we could be a little more sensitive.


Amy, realize, please, that I do not need you to mother me nor remind me of anything


----------



## JMS Miniatures (Apr 18, 2011)

I voted no but thats not saying he doesn't have conformation flaws and he should be gelded. I wouldn't be surprized if he did threw tiny dwarves. But nothing screams dwarf to me.


----------



## denny10012 (Apr 19, 2011)

NO WAY IS HE A DWARF......IMO AND BY THE LOOKS OF IT MOST OTHER PEOPLES TOO..


----------



## alphahorses (Apr 19, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I voted yes.
> 
> And frankly, it's astonishing to me that some people whom I considered knowledgable breeders say they don't see it.


Took the words out of my mouth... though the word "distrubing" came to mind as well as astonishing.



StarRidgeAcres said:


> And as for Jill's question. Not "rude" in my opinion. Just asking what others think. Jill did not put this little dear out there for the public's consumption. His owners did. If they want the perks of flights around the country, hotel stays, notoriety (sp?), then they should be prepared for the other side of the coin. That's part of anyone's 15 minutes of fame.


Normally I would agree that it is rude to offer an unsolicited opinion on a horse. But, as StarRidgeAcres puts it, publicizing the horse as they have opens them up to public opinion. And I think it would be irresponsible of people who know and love miniature horses not to make the public aware that, while cute and deserving of love, this is something we should be striving NOT to reproduce.


----------



## sfmini (Apr 19, 2011)

I voted yes, no question about it.

If I was called upon to hardship inspect a horse like him, I would not pass him and would recommend rejection of the application. Should they ever take his papers permanent, my guess is his papers will be revoked by AMHA.

I will see if I can get a soft copy of a presentation I attended on dwarfism when I was at an AMHA annual meeting, it was excellent. The person who gave the presentation is no longer active in the organization but I am sure someone will have it.


----------



## jegray21 (Apr 19, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> My comment about rudeness was from a post on another thread. I don't think his owners are holding him up as "the standard," just that he is one cute little fella. I also don't feel that he should be bred, and I really don't think that is what they have in mind. MANY minis can't be gelded until they are well past age one. Will they geld him later? I would bet so. For now they are having fun with his uniqueness and I think that is fine. To each their own. I won't say anything more about this, I just really hate the judgement on individuals when they aren't doing anything to you. I love sharing my own minis, and if I had the opportunity to share them with the world, I think I would!


----------



## jegray21 (Apr 19, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> OK, folks. I would love to see some gorgeous miniature horse out there being promoted to the general public as well. Just how would you go about doing it, eh? What makes a horse "marketable" to the television stations, magazines, news media, etc? I don't think anyone has truly figured out how to bring a beautifully conformed miniature horse into the public eye, but it might behoove us all to figure it out!


lol very true. I was thinking that he is not any different (besides the bad conformation) than many of the ones we get to see born on here. I still don't think he is the smallest one..have they said how tall he is. There has to be someone on here with one that is the same size with great conformation. We can call GMA for an interview


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 19, 2011)

To get your well-conformed mini in the public eye, hire him/her an agent! I am not being sarcastic, I know someone (a forum member) who has done that and her gorgeous mini has been on the cover of magazines such as Vogue and bridal mags. Maybe she will post more details.


----------



## gatorbait4sure (Apr 19, 2011)

My understanding is that these people have an agent, a book deal and are working ( or have been working )with Disney on a movie.

And Yes, I think he has dwarf characteristics.

What I'd like to know is how tall is he as a yearling.......I'll bet he measures as just a small mini.

My Prince filly is STILL 27" at three years....

............wonder if they'll share Disney's phone # with me......


----------



## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 19, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> Will they geld him later? I would bet so.



i would bet not. i highly doubt they will geld him. he's being marketed as 'Worlds Smallest *Stallion*'. i highly doubt they will change that because then he wouldnt be as popular to the press. theres no title for 'worlds smallest gelding'. besides the terrible confo and the possibility that he is a dwarf, i see nothing unique about him. my mare Honey was born pretty darn small, but did i call the press about it??


----------



## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 19, 2011)

gatorbait4sure said:


> My understanding is that these people have an agent, a book deal and are working ( or have been working )with Disney on a movie.
> 
> And Yes, I think he has dwarf characteristics.
> 
> ...



are you serious about Disney???

thats insane! poor Einstein, i still think they only bought him for the publicity and attention





ETA: Einstein was 14" at birth, thats nothing unique, many mini foals, including my Honey, are born that tall. aproaching his 1st b-day he's 20". my honey was 22". he could also very well have a growth spurt. over winter my honey went from 22" to 27"!

here's an article: Einstein Article it also mentions who his parents are, i can tell you i wont be buying any of their offspring any time soon!


----------



## maestoso (Apr 19, 2011)

Good Grief!

A poll for fun or to educate is one thing. A poll that is simply to spite or to prove another wrong is a little ridiculous.

Jill, in many ways I agree with what you say about Einstein. However, it's not my horse, I'm not in charge of his publicity nor can I do anything about it, so I don't really care.

This poll is a little ridiculous.


----------



## Jill (Apr 19, 2011)

maestoso said:


> Good Grief!
> 
> A poll for fun or to educate is one thing. A poll that is simply to spite or to prove another wrong is a little ridiculous.
> 
> ...


Matt --

You're welcome to find it ridiculous or not, and it's nice you found the time to participate in the thread even though you deem it silly. In that the thread and poll have received quite a bit of participation and comment, it must not be but so ridiculous.

While Einstein is not my horse and has no connection to my horses, he is being used as a representation to the public of what a miniature horse is and for that reason, I do think it's well worth commenting about. I'm not sorry to have done so.

Jill


----------



## shelia (Apr 19, 2011)

I do not know if Einstein is a dwarf or not, but I do see some things that would make me wonder. His nostrils are to high on his nose. His roach back does not show up in the recent pictures or video. i believe he was born Premature and that was the reason for his weight. It could also be a reason for his back problem, if he still has it. His legs seem to be a good length and his joints don't seem to be overly large. His head looks a little big in some pics, but that could just be the pictures. His neck is long enough.

I don't condem the owners for promoting him. Okay, he is not show quality, but many people have therapy horses, 4h horses and horses in parades that are not show quality. Just because your mini isn't perfect is no reason to hide him away.

For those of you who say he is an obvious dwarf. Please educate us. What exactly are you seeing? Don't say bad conformation. That is just too broad.

I say the nostrils are too high and that makes me suspect he is a minimal dwarf.


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 19, 2011)

Actually, I do find this poll quite educational. What I find interesting is that among the forum members who presumably know a lot about miniatures and something about dwarfs, the vote is pretty even for "dwarf" vs. "not dwarf". What does this say about "our" ability to recognize a dwarf in our own herds? I guess I would like to know what particular traits are suggesting to people that he is or isn't a dwarf?? I believe John Eberth mentioned on the dwarfism forum that bad conformation is not the same as dwarfism (although of course they can be related).

So what exactly screams "dwarf"?? Also, I thought (someone will correct me if I am wrong) that a mini had to have 2 or more of a certain list of characteristics to be a dwarf, but I can't find the list.


----------



## horsehug (Apr 19, 2011)

Actually to be a dwarf, the horse has to have two copies of the same dwarf gene as I understand it.

If they only have one copy they are just a carrier of a dwarf gene, but not a dwarf.

I will be so glad when the tests are available. Then we will be able to completely avoid this guesswork (at least on our own horses).

Susan O.


----------



## sfmini (Apr 19, 2011)

As I understand it, there is more than one type of dwarf, and they have not isolated the genes to be able to create a test. That said, I can't agree on the statement about each of the two parents having to have a copy of the gene when we don't know what the gene is and can't test for it.

The person in the know on this topic is John Eberth who is studying dwarfism scientifically. There is an old forum here where he discussed that topic.

I haven't read the entire dwarf forum, so I may be misinformed, but simply relying on logic.


----------



## ohmt (Apr 19, 2011)

Yes they have isolated the genes and the horse must be homozygous recessive for any of the types to be a dwarf.

Also, I would like to say once again that there is no such thing as a minimal dwarf.


----------



## CheyAut (Apr 19, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> OK, folks. I would love to see some gorgeous miniature horse out there being promoted to the general public as well. Just how would you go about doing it, eh? What makes a horse "marketable" to the television stations, magazines, news media, etc? I don't think anyone has truly figured out how to bring a beautifully conformed miniature horse into the public eye, but it might behoove us all to figure it out!



Well, my drill team brought 10 of our team's horses to the World Equestrian Games, where we performed our drill routine every day for 8 days, as well as daily "meet and greet" where we brought our horses down to a place where the public could come meet them, pet them, ask questions. TONS of kids came through in school trips as well as adults! Doesn't get a whole lot bigger than the World Equestrian Games, although too bad not televised! We are doing our best to promote the American Miniature Horse



We've also been in the Rose Bowl Parade three times (hoping to get back in this coming year), the Calgary Stampede, Night of the Horse at Del Mar, horse festivals here, and we perform for schools, pet fairs, ect.

http://www.minimystique.org/weg.htm

This is my previous drill team horse, who went with us... (TCM Midnight Blues)






That horse is now my husband's drill team (and CDE) horse, and my new drill team horse is: (Timberview High Stakes Gambler)


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Apr 19, 2011)

I think there are minimal dwarfs in exactly the same way that there are minimal pintos- it stands to reason, as far as I can see, and I think we have argued that one to a standstill on another thread!

As far as I know the genes have not been isolated- if they had been surely we would have a test?


----------



## kaykay (Apr 19, 2011)

I think if people would say minimal "expression" dwarf or pinto then it makes more sense. A horse is a dwarf or not but it may only express it minimally. Same thing for a pinto. It is a pinto but only visually expresses it minimally.


----------



## Katiean (Apr 19, 2011)

Ok, I am going to try this again. I think when a person says that the horse in a minimal dwarf it is the same as saying a horse is a minimal pinto. There may be a small spot on the pinto that is maybe even hidden under the mane. He is still a pinto. Just because a dwarf is not sevearly crippled by the dwarf gene but shows signs as everyone has pointed out it is still a dwarf even though it does not look like oh, say, Thumbalina. Everyone knows that she is a dwarf. Is she minimal? No. However, Einstine has a roach back and his neck IS too short. These charicteristics would be minimal. Let me ask this question of all of you that say he is not a dwarf. IF YOU WERE GIVEN THE OPERTUNITY TO BREED A MARE TO EINSTINE.....WOULD YOU? AND WHY OR WHY NOT?


----------



## LindaL (Apr 19, 2011)

I voted no and have not read all the comments. While i do not think he is a dwarf, he definitely have some conformational flaws that are not desirable and would geld him. I saw him on The View this morning and while I think he is cute and it's adorable that his "friend" is a Boxer...I really think that people that don't know anything about horses see TINY and that is what they "want". I do not agree with that kind of "public service" by promoting your "smallest stallion". But, that's just me...


----------



## shelia (Apr 19, 2011)

sorry about useing the word minimal. I meant that he would seem to have a minimal handicap, but could still live a fairly comfortable life. i may be wrong about that too. His belly seems a bit large so he may have some internal problems, but then again maybe not.

I don't think anyone on here would want him as a stallion. Dwarf or not, he does not have anything that could add to a breeding. The topic is "Do you think Einstein is a dwarf?"

I would just like to know what makes you think that?

Someone said "short neck"

What else?


----------



## Katiean (Apr 19, 2011)

Shelia, have you not been paying attention? Many have stated his head is some what larger than it should be, his neck is too short and he has a roach back. At this point and with out seeing him in person these are the points that people are using to give their opinion. I had a dwarf that's knees were "C" shaped to the side. When I took him down to U.C. Davis for x-rays in the back seat of my pinto hatch back. They told me there was nothing that could be done for him but I had a darn cute little dwarf.


----------



## ohmt (Apr 19, 2011)

Good grief-i'm pretty sure enough people have given their opinions as to whether or not they'd use him for breeding and why. We don't need to pick him apart anymore.

I know what people mean by using minimal dwarf but there is still no such thing. A horse either is a dwarf or not. Achondroplasia is as minimal as they come and he is not achondroplasia. So then what type is he? Minimal is not a type.


----------



## vickie gee (Apr 19, 2011)

Again, I do not have an opinion as to whether or not he is a dwarf. I am not a scientist. I hear the dwarf gene has been isolated, is recessive, would take two recessive genes to be homozygous, yadda, yadda, yadda. Also hear the gene has not been isolated. Not enough info known to know if it is recessive, domininant, hetero, homo, or what, more yadda, yadda, yadda. I love genetics, I really do but honestly I will leave that up to the experts in the field. If there is currently no test to determine if Einstein or any other horse not blatantly obvious to be a dwarf but for good reason dwarfism is questionable I don't have anything to form an opinion on (which only happens rarely, i.e. Blue Moon). LOL. HOWEVER, I have formed the opinion that:

1. Jill means what she says and says what she means. My kind of person who does not beat around the bush. I cannot fault her whatsoever. If she comes across rude, fine. Sometimes people will ignore nice and the point is not taken.

2. Opinions are opinions, right or wrong.

3. After watching a youtube video today I feel the owners are really milking this. "He's so small, just so tiny, his little bones are fragile." For crying out loud, let's just tout them as porcelain dolls. Every little girl should add one to her Madam Alexander collection.

4. The book coming out is capitalism at its best. I am all for capitalism...but give my achey breaky heart a break Einy cannot have just any friend cause him wittle. Miniature horses ARE little and they can buddy up with all sorts of animals. My anatolian shepherds are bigger than some of my horses. Light bulb just came on, maybe I could write a book about the friendship between mine.

5. He has to be a LIBERAL HORSE. He went on THE VIEW today. I will just have to hear about that second hand. There aint enough Jack Daniels in Texas to make me watch that show. Gosh, I hope next we don't have to have him go back on THE VIEW to tell about him coming outta the closet. This is how I feel and even though I could care less/don't know if he is a dwarf I do have an opinion of those "ladies" on that show. Would not let my horse, dog, cat, scorpion, gopher, or barn rat be on that show. But money talks I suppose. Anybody that likes the show...fine by me, watch away, enjoy. You have the right to. I just frankly cannot stand it.

6. Apparently, the Disney thing is true. Went on Einstein's facebook page today and saw something about it. Did not stay on it long due to all the comments from the excited non-horsey people about him being so itty bitty cutie on The View.

7. Who knows if he is the world's smallest horse/stallion? Not everybody registers their horses or calls the news station. I have relatives that have relatives who had 8 pasture bred/pasture born foals in the last few weeks. They do not register. That's their business, not mine. Found out last week they had one born that weighed 10 pounds. Maybe they can get on Springer or Donahue.

8. Lastly, Einstein is related to some of my horses, so we have to love him. He's family. I think his sire is my mare's half brother. Oddly enough the first foal she had for me is 2 years old and only 24 inches tall. Well, really it is not so odd. She had a birth defect of locked up front legs, spent her first six weeks of life at Texas A & M Animal Science Hospital, went through an experimental surgery, had her middle growth plates fused, and steel rods put in her front legs. Her confirmation is absolutely ridiculous, she is tougher than a pine knot (not fragile like Einy), has looks that would mimmick Alf, is so independent she could care less if she has a buddy or not (often found out in her own little corner of the pasture, but every animal here respects her Godloveher little weird self), and can make even your worst day bright with her antics. Never would I promote her as something any farm would want born. But we had the option of giving her a chance or having her put down. Decision and $$$. Her next owner (if ever there is one) will have to show us they can give her a better life than we can. Yep, a sequel in the making. Publicists, writers, directors, c'mon I am still paying on the vet bill.

Bottom line is I do not think he is a dwarf and I do not think he is not a dwarf. I only wonder. If the owners can capitalize on the public being so misinformed about the correctness expected in a mini and become so enchanted like they do over all Disney movies well, what does the future hold? Remember all the Dalmations that ended up at the pound because everybody just had to have one?


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 19, 2011)

DING! DING! DING! Folks, we have a winner! Hi-larious post!







vickie gee said:


> Again, I do not have an opinion as to whether or not he is a dwarf. I am not a scientist. I hear the dwarf gene has been isolated, is recessive, would take two recessive genes to be homozygous, yadda, yadda, yadda. Also hear the gene has not been isolated. Not enough info known to know if it is recessive, domininant, hetero, homo, or what, more yadda, yadda, yadda. I love genetics, I really do but honestly I will leave that up to the experts in the field. If there is currently no test to determine if Einstein or any other horse not blatantly obvious to be a dwarf but for good reason dwarfism is questionable I don't have anything to form an opinion on (which only happens rarely, i.e. Blue Moon). LOL. HOWEVER, I have formed the opinion that:
> 
> 1. Jill means what she says and says what she means. My kind of person who does not beat around the bush. I cannot fault her whatsoever. If she comes across rude, fine. Sometimes people will ignore nice and the point is not taken.
> 
> ...


----------



## maestoso (Apr 19, 2011)

.


----------



## Dee (Apr 20, 2011)

Is it hot in here or is it just me?? 

We all have our opinions and that's what makes this forum so great! However this horse doesn't belong to any if us so there is nothing we can do about it no matter what our opinions are.

It's almost Easter so we all have to be nice or the bunny won't be coming to our houses!!!


----------



## Jill (Apr 20, 2011)

Thanks, Vickie



I love your post





Besides, I don't think the Easter Bunny could ever get past our alarm system and dogs


----------



## ~Lisa~ (Apr 20, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> I voted yes.
> 
> And frankly, it's astonishing to me that some people whom I considered knowledgable breeders say they don't see it. Wow, beauty most certainly is in the eye of the beholder.


I think there is a difference though between finding him conformationally not correct or what to strive for and being a dwarf. I have owned a dwarf and personally do not find him to be one from what I have seen online.

There are some key componants I see in dwarves I do not see in him at all. That said do I think he should be a stallion Nope.. do I think he is correct- Nope not even close. Is he what I would choose to use in a breeding program.. Nope not a chance.

However there are many minis out there I personally would not use for those things although like you said beauty is in the eye of the beholder


----------



## Jill (Apr 21, 2011)

Thanks, folks, for participating and voting. I've found it interesting to follow...





I met with a client yesterday evening who happens to be a small animal vet. He and his wife had seen Einstein on TV and I had to laugh when they told me Einstein didn't look anything like the pictures of my horses


----------



## Dona (Apr 21, 2011)

In my opinion, Einstein is without a doubt....a dwarf. I am also amazed that there are still so many people who don't, or can't see the signs. Large head, short neck, roached back, extremely poor conformation overall. I agree with Jody, AMHA would definitely turn down permanent registration if ever requested.

I don't disagree that he is cute as a bug. But I wish every time someone happens to get an extremely tiny foal, they wouldn't jump on the publicity wagon & start campaigning the little one all over as "The World's Tiniest...Whatever". Why can't they just campaign them as what they are. It would do much more good to educate people about Dwarfs, and why they don't make the average person a good pet unless they are willing to spend lots of time, effort & money in the care that they will need.


----------



## vickie gee (Apr 21, 2011)

Jill said:


> Thanks, Vickie
> 
> 
> 
> ...


You're welcome.


----------



## vickie gee (Apr 21, 2011)

Jill said:


> Thanks, folks, for participating and voting. I've found it interesting to follow...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I hear Einstein comments from non-mini people as well. They are just making conversation (which is natural.) I just smile and and nod and say "yes, he is a LITTLE GUY, isn't he?"


----------



## Reijel's Mom (Apr 21, 2011)

I'm torn on whether he's a dwarf or not, so I declined to vote.

I will say, if I had any animal that would allow me to quit my job and make money off he/she and get to spend lots of time showing off the animal and spending time with him/her, something I love doing anyway, spending time with my animals - I would do it in a heartbeat! Chance of a lifetime, I'd say, and I think it could easily be done in a way that was not cruel to the animal.


----------



## Jill (Apr 22, 2011)

Obviously, I do think Einstein's a dwarf and I feel as some others have expressed. It is perplexing to me that some experienced breeders do not see the signs that are apparent to us





As to making a living through animals, there's nothing explicitly wrong with that -- however, in this case, I feel what's going on is a disservice to our breed



Such a poor example is being held out as a reference. Also, it seems like if someone can quit their job and make a living off a little horse, time could be found to teach him to behave with some manners


----------



## ClickMini (Apr 22, 2011)

How does anyone know that they quit their jobs to promote their horse? I looked, and could not find that info anywhere. I can't imagine, by ANY stretch, that Einstein is "paying the bills." But hey, what do I know. If he is, Alladdin is going back into TV star training! LOL


----------



## Reijel's Mom (Apr 22, 2011)

ClickMini said:


> How does anyone know that they quit their jobs to promote their horse? I looked, and could not find that info anywhere. I can't imagine, by ANY stretch, that Einstein is "paying the bills." But hey, what do I know. If he is, Alladdin is going back into TV star training! LOL



I actually have no idea if anyone did/didn't quit their job - I was just saying IF I could do that, I surely would. Others have seemed to indicate that it's wrong to make money off this situation. I disagree, so long as the animal is being well treated/cared for. We put our animals through a lot of things that have the potential to be stressful/unsafe for them - showing, breeding, etc.


----------



## Riverdance (Apr 22, 2011)

> hey are having fun with his uniqueness and I think that is fine.


I do not consider him unique at all. There are many Miniature horses that are born small and stay really small. Many that have better conformation than this one. My daughter used to own a 26" stallion. He was so tiny when he was born, at least as tiny as Einstein. But his conformation was wonderful, a Multiple Supreme winner when he was shown. He could have been promoted too, as being so tiny. They say that Einstein is 20" now, but are they measuring him correctly? They are not horse people and my guess is, they do not know how to measure correctly. I will also guess he will end up around 25 to 26". Not unique at all.

I will also have to agree with Jill. If breeders can not tell that he is a dwarf, they should hold back on breeding their horses till they learn what a dwarf looks like.

http://www.miniaturehorsetalk.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=1163

He has a really roached back, a HUGH head with a small neck and high nostrils In this picture he also looks like he is heading to be on the crippled side.

This picture says DWARF loud and clear.


----------



## ohmt (Apr 22, 2011)

Guess I need to stop breeding then. I am perfectly aware of all of his conformational flaws and yet disagree with those who say he's a dwarf (I do think it's very possible he may be a carrier with a few characteristics peaking through). I think it's incredibly judgemental to be saying people who don't think he's a dwarf need to stop breeding when there is no test yet and almost everyone on here has agreed he is not breedin quality.


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 23, 2011)

ohmt said:


> (I do think it's very possible he may be a carrier with a few characteristics peaking through).


*"A carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" IS A DWARF!*

That is exactly what people, ok I'll just speak for myself - ME, are trying to say! It's like being a little pregnant. And my intentions are no where NEAR about being judgemental. It's about informing people, like newer folks to the mini world, about the truths of dwarfism. It's an ugly, sad, evil part of the breed and if we dare to dismiss it as "cute" then shame on us all. Are dwarves cute themselves and precious and deserving of love and freedom from pain? ABSOLUTELY! But let's not pretend it doesn't exists when it's as big as an elephant in the room.

Einstein is a little doll! No question. He may be ill-mannered, but that's not a danger to the breed. Although it did make him look like a little brat on national tv when he could have looked like a sweet little angel if he'd been trained.

And if someone is knowingly breeding "a carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" then in my opinion, yes, they should STOP!

A long time ago someone asked, I believe it was Matt D, where would the breed be if all the know dwarf producers had been culled from the breeding pool? I believe he was referring to all the producers that have also produced world champions, etc. And my point then, and now, is sadly we don't know where the breed might be. But why should we assume it would be worse off? My personal belief is it would be much better off. Sure, a lot of farms that have existed forever on a few producers wouldn't be in business, but other horses would have risen to the occasion and we may have found ourselves with a much stronger and varied gene pool than we have today.

As for the test. It must exist, if only in a lab somewhere, if I can be told based on blood samples what type of carrier a horse was. Apparently there is a reason why it's not available to the public. But that's another topic with more opinions I'm sure.






OK. The horse is dead.


----------



## Jill (Apr 23, 2011)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> *"A carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" IS A DWARF!*


I completely agree with this... and really everything you just said, Parmela!



:yeah


----------



## minimomNC (Apr 23, 2011)

I think I will keep my opinion to myself on this one, cause my opinion doesn't mean much anyway. BUT since he is registered AMHA (I checked) if he were to be taken to a show and shown, should the judges refuse to place him if he is a dwarf. Even if its all last places, should they refuse to give him ribbons because they think he is a dwarf or should they place him and not say anything. After all, they are AMHA carded judges and should know the difference.


----------



## Jill (Apr 23, 2011)

I don't know, Karen. Would it fit into the same catagory of if a horse is too big for the class, it's not up to the judges to make that call -- rather to place what has been put before them. _(Not being sarcastic, I really don't know... Not sure if the registry and the stewards are on the "hook" for that call, or if the judges are.)_


----------



## kaykay (Apr 23, 2011)

Years and Years ago when I first started showing an obvious dwarf was showing in halter. The judge refused to place it even though there were only 2 in the class. When the owner asked why the judge very respectfully told the owner she was showing a dwarf. I have huge respect for that judge. Thankfully others helped educate the owner after the class. She truly had no idea her mini was a dwarf.

In AMHR a judge can refuse to place a horse even for reasons other than being a dwarf. Its rare but it happens.


----------



## kayla221444 (Apr 23, 2011)

*IMO* I see Dwarf in Him, have since the day he was born, if you look back at foal video's his HEAD is Almost as big as his body!!! And almost looks like he could "tip" over from the weight of it... His legs seem somewhat straight, In the recent videos his back looks horribly roached. His neck seems to be the length of his head.

*It's not them advertising him that Erk's me, it is when they say hes A small porpotioned nice mini, that shows no dwarf Char. *...

People that see him on the news etc, just believe everything they hear, and think that is what a Nice Miniature should look like...

I think someone should start campagining a Nice Quality Miniature Horse...and listen the views from Non-Knowledgeable people I think they could even tell the difference in a nice mini compared to a dwarf that is being promoted...


----------



## horsehug (Apr 23, 2011)

When I say I do not believe Einstein is a dwarf, I am going by what John Eberth said in various posts on the dwarf forum right here on LB (as well as in many emails over the years in answer to my questions about dwarfism).

In other words, in order to BE a dwarf, the horse has to have TWO copies of the dwarf gene, and in order to be a carrier and not a true dwarf, he has to have one copy of the gene. Here is just one quote from John. He has been studying dwarfism at least since 1993.



> To try to bring some rational understanding to this subject about "minimal dwarfs", I feel I need to comment about the term, what it means and its use.
> First of all, the term "minimal dwarf" is totally a made up term by someone somewhere that wanted to say that a horse that wasnt a dwarf but looked like one was a "minimal dwarf", or wanted to say that a true dwarf that was minimally affected (ie a good dwarf) was a "minimal dwarf". So needless to say, the term has been widely used for a wide variety of "good dwarfs" or "horses with really bad conformation" or "a horse that had an extremely exotic head, bad legs, and really small in height". Any way you look at it, the term has been used to try to describe a wide variety of horses with "some sort of problem." So with that said, I strongly feel the term is incorrect and it is used improperly to describe certain horses.
> 
> If you have a dwarf that is "a good dwarf" in the sense that it has the disease but it is not as severe in showing its characterisitcs, then you have a dwarf with two homozygous recessive genes showing less gene expression than might be typically seen. Your dwarf is no less of a dwarf than someone else's dwarf that might be more severely affected by it's genes' expression of the disease.
> ...


Susan O.


----------



## ohmt (Apr 23, 2011)

Thank you very much Susan. A horse absolutely does NOT have to b a dwarf to have a recessive gene that shows some characteristics over the dominant. That is genetics. Some of these posts are getting extremely disrespectful and I highly recommend some of you visit the dwarf forum in here before using caps, bold, and exclamation points to yell at someone for voicing their opinion based on scientific studies.


----------



## targetsmom (Apr 23, 2011)

I, too, went back to the LB Dwarfism forum and found what I was looking for on the last page: Instead of a link, here are the question and answer. Draw your own conclusions.

Question:

I would like to know if you can list VISUAL traits in what is classified as a Dwarf in Miniature Horses? Example... If the horse looks like it's legs are too short for it's body.. does this make it a Dwarf? Or does it have to be combined with other visual things (besides short legs) to look for before it is classified as a Dwarf? Hope I made sense in what I ask..

John Eberth's answer:

Your question is a good one, unfortunately the answer is a highly variable one, if you get what I am saying.

Yes short "stubby" legs would make me suspicious especially if other characteristics are there. I know I answered a thread earlier that was on top, my bad, but in that answer, I think from Annette, can give you a really good grasp as to why my answer is variable.

The only time I would be able to look only at legs and say yes is to a type 2 dwarf, where the upper legs are extremely shortened, and a very weak hip. A very good slang comparison to a type 2 dwarf would be to say the body looks like a german Shepard in the rear, and that the body looks like it is going up hill.The biggest problem with using physical visual characteristics is obviously a poorly conformed and stocky horse that is NOT a dwarf might be thought IS a dwarf. This goes back to knowing good horse conformation versus bad and training your eye by actually looking at horses that are known dwarfs and looking at the parents and comparing those visual characteristics and clues and compare to a generally "good quality" horse that shockingly had a dwarf. Again it is something that is learned from experience, and most people dont have the luxury I have had for over 28 yrs seeing from the beginning "dwarfs" from "non-dwarf" carriers. There are numerous consistent characteristics, but pedigree knowledge is the key.

John


----------



## Reble (Apr 23, 2011)

targetsmom said:


> This goes back to knowing good horse conformation versus bad and training your eye by actually looking at horses that are known dwarfs and looking at the parents and comparing those visual characteristics and clues and compare to a generally "good quality" horse that shockingly had a dwarf. Again it is something that is learned from experience, and most people dont have the luxury I have had for over 28 yrs seeing from the beginning "dwarfs" from "non-dwarf" carriers. There are numerous consistent characteristics, but pedigree knowledge is the key.
> 
> John



Some traits are structural that someone might confuse with being a dwarf, like short legs that are proportional, meaning upper and lower leg bones are proportional to themselves, but you have a horse that is really long bodied, big head, and short neck. Well to me, most likely you have just a horse with undesirable traits, not dwarfism at all. Those things happen, we are breeding animals with genetics we cannot totally control, we are not manufacturing an idealized horse from an assembly line.

Remember, Mother Nature wants genetic variation, this ensures the most viable genetics are spread out to ensure the perpetuation of a species, and organisms in general, plant or whatever. The way genes are inherited ensures some variation no matter how true breeding an animal is.

John


----------



## tagalong (Apr 23, 2011)

> "A carrier with a few characteristics peeking through" IS A DWARF!



*THIS ^* . Any characteristics being expressed or "peeking through" = DWARF.

The roached back/scoliosis is a giant screaming flashing red alert here and is a lot more than simply "poor conformation" (seriously??!!). It will get worse as he ages.

I wonder how many who do not feel he is a dwarf in any way would change their minds if Einstein was a solid bay or chestnut and the flashy colouring was not there as a distraction.

As far as small goes, we have a red 27" filly here who has great conformation, great manners and is a far better representative of the breed. I guess she needs an agent... and maybe some chrome.


----------



## Reble (Apr 23, 2011)

tagalong said:


> *THIS ^* . Any characteristics being expressed or "peeking through" = DWARF.
> 
> The roached back/scoliosis is a giant screaming flashing red alert here and is a lot more than simply "poor conformation" (seriously??!!). It will get worse as he ages.
> 
> ...



Ok need to learn something here, where does it say a roached back is dwarf, wanting to understand your comment, other the depth of a horse's topline may vary, from sway-backed to roach-backed, big horses have this problem as well and because of their use for riding is not looked on to be good, I do not believe this means dwarf?

Yes, not good conformation but dwarf .

Can you tell me where you found this information.

No in my opinion color has nothing to do with it, but does help him stand out with his markings.


----------



## chandab (Apr 23, 2011)

tagalong said:


> The roached back/scoliosis is a giant screaming flashing red alert here and is a lot more than simply "poor conformation" (seriously??!!).


So, what does roached back in a full-size horse breed mean? I've seen roached backed full-size horses, and we're not talking hunters bump, but full on roached back.

[Guess Reble and I were posting at the same time.]


----------



## kayla221444 (Apr 23, 2011)

I can say in all of my years I have never seen a roached back Big horse, maybe one where his back bone was sticking out because he wasn't properly fed..but none that were roached back


----------



## Reble (Apr 23, 2011)

kayla221444 said:


> I can say in all of my years I have never seen a roached back Big horse, maybe one where his back bone was sticking out because he wasn't properly fed..but none that were roached back


Here is information on roached back for you

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_(horse)


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Apr 23, 2011)

I think we all need to cool off a bit on this...

Even if the colt were to be an obvious, screaming at you, dwarf, exactly what are you going to do about it?

I would love to know how he got to be registered AMHA, though, when they are happy to proclaim something a dwarf or a completely different colour to the one you know it to be, form a couple of photos- so how come they did not pick up on it?

At the end of the day, I have a feeling that even were there a test, and there is not, not yet, these people would not be interested in it.

Leave it a couple of years and it will all blow over- where is thumbelina now?

And, yes, I am one of the ones who has two 27" yearlings, perfect in every way, and one Appy to boot, and a chestnut three year old who stands 27" at the withers and is also perfect, so Einstein, whatever he is, is far form unique!


----------



## kayla221444 (Apr 23, 2011)

Reble said:


> Here is information on roached back for you
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Back_(horse)


I was stating me personally I have never seen one..but thanks


----------



## tagalong (Apr 23, 2011)

I have seen dwarfs with severe to moderate scoliosis - which is where my concerns about the roached back come from. You can airly dismiss it if you choose but IMO if that does not set off some sort of alarms (especially in minis where dwarfism is a concern) well, then I guess we will have to agree to disagree about possible warning signs. _Even if "all" _



_ he had was that roach back - do you really think that is simply poor confromation??!! _No - poor conformation is not what you would put in a halter class and/or breed for (for colour or any other reason). A roach back is an unsoundness. A LOUD one. And I said it was a RED ALERT... as it should be.

Cuteness, small size and flashy colour should not outweigh genetic and structural issues/concerns.

JMO. YMMV.


----------



## Eohippus (Apr 23, 2011)

I can't say if he's a dwarf or not. I look at some pictures or videos and they seem to scream dwarf!! But then I look at others and I just say really bad conformation. Though his back has gotten worse with age amongst other things. I think time will tell. However...

I think what disappoints me the most isn't the fact that he may or may not be a dwarf, because like a few others have said, even if he is (and it was proven through a test) the owners would a) test to begin with b) share the test results if they did test or c) really care. He is getting good care and love, which is important for any horse.

The things that upset me about the situation are: They overlook the fact he was born premature most of the time. His height wasn't much smaller than Kinson's when born, but the weight is what made a difference and it’s his _weight_ that the record books are recording. If you look at the fine print it does say something about smallest weighing or lightest born but they act like no miniature has even been born that height before.

They don't have a horn companion for him. My 25.5" stallion plays with my 33" geldings. Did I worry about the size difference at first? You bet, especially when he was a yearling and only 19". But my geldings are good boys and gentle with them (but firm when teaching him manners!). If they're really concern about him there are other minis out there that are small, all they need to do is find a one they like (and make it a gelding if it isn't!). Or they could give an actual proven/known dwarf a home so it is a little as Einstein (as long as the dwarf wasn't severely affected and could play with another horse) as they have the money to take care of a dwarf.

The *most* upsetting/irritating/annoying thing to me is his behavior. He's a brat. That is one thing I think every one has agreed on lol. He's tiny so he can get away with more because it’s not seen as dangerous it’s seen as cute and he probably gets away with it because they use the line "he's a stallion" which to me is no excuse. For a little while Kinson was becoming a brat because I just let him get away with more due to his small size. I just shrugged it off thinking "he's tiny, what could it hurt?" or "he's not threat" then my friend would give the line "It’s just because he's a stallion" then I realized that’s no excuse and I shouldn't let him get away with any more than my full sized horses or my mini geldings. He's back to being a well mannered little stallion now, though, when in public he's always been an angel as he seems to know its his job to represent miniatures at their finest with the best and sweetest personalities. Had he been on an interview for TV I know I could have asked him to stand there and he would've done so nicely.


----------



## Jill (Apr 24, 2011)

I agree with a lot of what has been said in the recent posts. Unfortunately, Einstein is physically a very poor example of a miniature horse and he is also really badly behaved. Yet, he is "what" a lot of people now think of when they wonder "what's a miniature horse?" If Einstein was what a miniature horse has to be, I know I would have just stuck with my full size horses.


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Apr 24, 2011)

And, of course, we all just _know_that the next gazillion people that see our, normal sized, for Minis, horses, are all going to carol "Oh did you see that one on the TV he's MUCH smaller than any you have, maybe you should be breeding your mares to him?"

Because, as we all know, it is _only_ about the size........(




)

ARGH


----------



## Eohippus (Apr 24, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> And, of course, we all just _know_that the next gazillion people that see our, normal sized, for Minis, horses, are all going to carol "Oh did you see that one on the TV he's MUCH smaller than any you have, maybe you should be breeding your mares to him?"
> 
> Because, as we all know, it is _only_ about the size........(
> 
> ...


Yep! Already got that, well, something similar. At our last show we had the minis in a pen in the shade, next to our trailer. We were eating lunch and a large group of people came over. I'm always happy to entertain questions and promote the breed but one of the first things out of their mouths, in reference to my stallion Kinson, was "There's a smaller one than him. Did you hear about him?" Then they asked their daughter (who was maybe 12-13) to tell me about the worlds smallest horse (thumbelina)



They hadn't a clue that thumbelina was a dwarf and felt she was a very cute mini and they should all be that small. I tried to explain to them what thumbelina was and educate them a little but they didn't care in the least. It was like talking to a wall. They soon went off to see the other show horses and see if they could find any smaller ones. Its those type of people that worry me should they ever decide to get a mini!


----------



## Jill (Apr 25, 2011)

Rabbit, if all minis were like Einstein, I would want ZERO minis. It wasn't until I saw a nicely proportioned mini that could DO things that I even thought I might want some for myself. My entire "gripe" about Einstein is really that he sets such an unattractive _(yeah, I said it)_ example of our breed. He is poorly made to put it mildly (I, like most who voted, think he IS a dwarf) and poorly handled.... not only setting a very bad physical example of our breed, but of miniature horse owners and their horsemanship skills.


----------



## Sue_C. (Apr 25, 2011)

kayla221444 said:


> I can say in all of my years I have never seen a roached back Big horse, maybe one where his back bone was sticking out because he wasn't properly fed..but none that were roached back


Wish I could say the same, but I have seen two, one was a Standardbred gelding, and the other a Quarterhorse mare...that of course...had been bred.







> I would love to know how he got to be registered AMHA, though


In his newborn pics, he was odd looking, (to me anyways) but nothing worse than a lot of minis I have seen here on the internet...so I suspect they allow these foals temp papers, and when new pics are sent in for perm papers, that is when a more informed decision can be made.


----------



## Sandy B (Nov 4, 2011)

This has been a very interesting topic. It is my understanding that there are several different Dwarf types, some very very minimal and some highly recognizable. I have seen some minis being shown in AMHA performance events that looked suspicious to me but were just poor specimens and I would question if they were a dwarf with minimal characteristics. I have seen breeders with broodmares that look questionable. So my point is, just because a mini has poor confirmation does not mean they are dwarf. Until there is a test available, I think people are out of line to say Einstein is a definite dwarf i when there is not one thing that screams "obvious dwarf" say for instance like Thumbalina was. Does anyone know Einstein's pedigree and if it is a known dwarf line? Just because Einstein has several confirmation faults and he was small at birth and is not the perfect miniature horse specimen, it still brings attention to our beloved breed. Why should we not be happy that miniature horses are in the spotlight? He is cute and he is little. Most people would never come in contact with Einstein personally so when they see a real live 32" mini they will still see them as tiny, which they are. Einstein's owners were obviously smart and excited about their little guy and called the press. It may have started out to just be in their local paper and then it was turned in to a media frenzy. Honestly, who cares! Good for them, they are making money off a cute little mini (although I agree he is badly behaved and hope they geld him). I just hate the thought that we judge these people's motives when I assume none of us do not know them personally.


----------



## trickhorses (Feb 4, 2012)

tagalong said:


> I feel that his scoliosis is but one indicator - and more issues will show up as he matures....



I think he is definitely a dwarf too. There are SO many forms of dwarfism that I would not hesitate to say he is a dwarf. He has the scoliosis like you pointed out. (curvature of the spine). Which is very typically of a dwarf! He also has a short neck with a large head. He should be gelded. I have seen recent pics of him and my opinion has not changed. What is even worse, is I see a lot of photoshopped pics of him particularly covering up his curved spine. Which means they know he has flaws are trying to hide them.

Yes, he is a cute little guy and his parents love him and take really good care of him. However I do not feel it is right to promote him with way they do. I for one would not want him to be associated with being the standard of what a miniature horse is suppose to look like!!


----------



## trickhorses (Feb 4, 2012)

Sandy B said:


> Does anyone know Einstein's pedigree and if it is a known dwarf line?


Funny you should bring that up. I know his sire does without question. Because I have TWO dwarves who happen to have the same exact lineage as Einstein. They are direct relatives.


----------



## Riverdance (Feb 5, 2012)

And there you go......a horse that should never be bred. I will state again, he is a dwarf.


----------



## Royal Crescent (Feb 5, 2012)

I think he looks even more dwarfy as time goes by. I went on his Facebook page and you see all the comments ignorant people make. I keep thinking about writing a comment about his dwarfism. I bet my comment would be deleted quickly!


----------



## rimmerpaints (Feb 5, 2012)

He has a fb page? I cant say yes or no cuz i really dont know. I start to say no then look again and think well maybe but then IM so not even close to expert. I know in human you can do blood work to check chromosomes. I assume you can on horses. I also thinking promoting the dwarfism is wrong because you get all these people who think OMG how cute I want a really small one like that but they dont have any idea about the health issues that go along with special needs animals. pecial Needs Animal needs alot of medical treatment and close monotoring on health related issues. Any animal with special needs needs this and owners need to also know this. Do i think they are cute well of course they are. I love them but also know the needs that is required. I personally dont have time for that so i wouldnt be a good dwarf owner. This is just my opinion


----------



## rimmerpaints (Feb 5, 2012)

also my daughter has been begging for one of those mini pigs and Im in way getting one. I told her there has to be health related issues with those also and we are not going to do that. I told her have enough vet bills on me!


----------



## mini horse mania (Feb 5, 2012)

I went on his page,,its einstein minihorse...someone asked if they planned to use him as a stallion...no reply....in one picture he has on splint boots. I am undecided as to if he is a dwarf or not....i cant even determine if my filly is a dwarf....she is teeny also,but does not have conformation flaws as he does.he did have a large head and roached back,and had the boots..i think he may be minimal,but I would not care to use him as a stallion.


----------



## Riverdance (Feb 5, 2012)

Sandy B said:


> This has been a very interesting topic. It is my understanding that there are several different Dwarf types, some very very minimal and some highly recognizable. I have seen some minis being shown in AMHA performance events that looked suspicious to me but were just poor specimens and I would question if they were a dwarf with minimal characteristics. I have seen breeders with broodmares that look questionable. So my point is, just because a mini has poor confirmation does not mean they are dwarf. Until there is a test available, I think people are out of line to say Einstein is a definite dwarf i when there is not one thing that screams "obvious dwarf" say for instance like Thumbalina was. Does anyone know Einstein's pedigree and if it is a known dwarf line? Just because Einstein has several confirmation faults and he was small at birth and is not the perfect miniature horse specimen, it still brings attention to our beloved breed. Why should we not be happy that miniature horses are in the spotlight? He is cute and he is little. Most people would never come in contact with Einstein personally so when they see a real live 32" mini they will still see them as tiny, which they are. Einstein's owners were obviously smart and excited about their little guy and called the press. It may have started out to just be in their local paper and then it was turned in to a media frenzy. Honestly, who cares! Good for them, they are making money off a cute little mini (although I agree he is badly behaved and hope they geld him). I just hate the thought that we judge these people's motives when I assume none of us do not know them personally.


SAndy,

Einstein's owners sold him almost at birth, so they are not the ones promoting him. I have said before, and I will say it again. My feeling is they bought him just to promote him. They have no idea how to handle a horse, especially a stallion.

If you go to the web page about him, there are no pictures of him as an adult, only baby ones, but most of all, pictures of the owners. You can not say that they do not want to be in front of a camera. Also, they post first of all, what all the media that has run a story on him. If they were more interested in Einstein, then themselves and what the media has written about them, then Einstein would be the only thing in the pictures and they would not have so much of what the media has to say and so may pictures of themselves. Now he has a game coming out....



what os with that?


----------



## supaspot (Feb 5, 2012)

a gamer ???? :-0


----------



## Forever Farm (Feb 5, 2012)

I don't know if it's been mentioned on here yet, but there are some horses that the dwarfism does not become apparent until they are much older. My dwarf mare is a daughter of a well known stallion, and this is her as a five year old. ...






Ignore the date, this is her at about 19 yrs old. The roach back is still prominent, ...






Her right after we got her in 2008. I don't have any that show her domey head, but it is very prominent...






She stands 26 inches. has been confirmed as a bracheo dwarf, though her legs are straight and has a dead on bite. We rescued her from a farm that had no problem breeding her. We were told that all of her foals either died at birth, or did not live long after they were born, leading me to believe they were all dwarves. She does hold a set of AMHA papers, but we have never bothered to have her transferred inot our names. What's the point? AMHA is going to see her updated pics and refuse to reissue the papers to us. She's a pet anyway.


----------



## ohmt (Feb 5, 2012)

You know what they say about assumptions riverdance....

I do not know his owners so I will not pretend to know their intentions. There are plenty of adult pictures posted on facebook by the way.

And again i'll say that Einstein is a well fed, obviously well taken care of little horse. With so many horses starving to death and abused in this world, I cannot understand all of the energy put into bashing the owners of a horse who is taken care of.

On a side note-i apologize if this comes across as rude, but I have had a long day and all I can say is "come on people!" Life is too short to be spending so much time griping.


----------



## Minimor (Feb 5, 2012)

I'm sorry--but I have to say this.

It is, to me, irrevelent how well fed/well cared for this horse is. Miniature horse people promote their horses as being "true horses in miniature". Some even rant about how they are not ponies, they are horses. They have horse proportions, they move like horses, they are not ponies. But then....here is all this publicity about this tiny little equine. People who ordinarily don't see Miniatures and don't know anything about miniatures or even horses in general are seeing Einstein. So, now when these people hear "Miniature horse" they think of Einstein--that famous little stallion.

What a wonderful introduction to the Miniature horse. Is that what you want people to know of the breed? As I see it, if you grew Einstein up into a 15 hh horse he would look very much like an oversized "pony", a dwarf pony no less.

I find it a shame that this is the Miniature that is being promoted, probably promoted more than any other Miniature horse on this continent.


----------



## Wings (Feb 5, 2012)

Minimor said:


> I'm sorry--but I have to say this.
> 
> It is, to me, irrevelent how well fed/well cared for this horse is. Miniature horse people promote their horses as being "true horses in miniature". Some even rant about how they are not ponies, they are horses. They have horse proportions, they move like horses, they are not ponies. But then....here is all this publicity about this tiny little equine. People who ordinarily don't see Miniatures and don't know anything about miniatures or even horses in general are seeing Einstein. So, now when these people hear "Miniature horse" they think of Einstein--that famous little stallion.
> 
> ...



I very much agree with all of the above minimor, bad examples of our breed get so heavily promoted due to a novelty size and it does, at best, nothing fr our bredd. At worst it makes a poor example that heaps scorn on our breed and once again we get stuck with stigma of being 'less' then other breeds.


----------



## ohmt (Feb 5, 2012)

I will do my best to educate when I can those that have the wrong preconceived notions regarding miniature horses-they came long before Einstein ever did by the way. Never have I heard Einsteins owner ever call him show quality or say that he was the perfect example of a miniature horse. The owner has said that they have zero intentions of ever breeding him as well. Isn't his book a children's book about finding friends? Oh my gosh, that is HORRIBLE! (Insert eye roll-no fun emoticons on my phone, unfortunately). Do I have horses of much better quality than Einstein? Yep-so do thousands of others. Do I have any 20" at his age? Nope, and not many others (if any) do. Let's give it a rest already.

How in the world is it ever irrelevant if a horse is being well fed or being cared for properly by the way?

I'm going to go concern myself with my OWN horses now...these threads are always just plain sad.


----------



## horsehug (Feb 5, 2012)

Great post, OHMT. Thank you.

Susan O.


----------



## Minimor (Feb 5, 2012)

> How in the world is it ever irrelevant if a horse is being well fed or being cared for properly by the way?


It's irrelevant in any discussion regarding whether or not a horse is a dwarf.


----------



## Riverdance (Feb 5, 2012)

Minimor said:


> I'm sorry--but I have to say this.
> 
> It is, to me, irrevelent how well fed/well cared for this horse is. Miniature horse people promote their horses as being "true horses in miniature". Some even rant about how they are not ponies, they are horses. They have horse proportions, they move like horses, they are not ponies. But then....here is all this publicity about this tiny little equine. People who ordinarily don't see Miniatures and don't know anything about miniatures or even horses in general are seeing Einstein. So, now when these people hear "Miniature horse" they think of Einstein--that famous little stallion.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what bothers me. Not that he is a cute horse, but that he is being heavily promoted as a fine example and perfectly proportioned Mini horse. They have said it quite often omht. Now the public heres this, sees him, sees the book about him and now a game about him, the public then believes that this is the standard for a Miniature horse. Yes, I have gotten it quite frequently that people see my horses and are amazed that they are so small and look perfectly like Mini horses. They think all Miniature horses are dwarfs, looking like Einstein.



Minimor said:


> I'm sorry--but I have to say this.
> 
> It is, to me, irrevelent how well fed/well cared for this horse is. Miniature horse people promote their horses as being "true horses in miniature". Some even rant about how they are not ponies, they are horses. They have horse proportions, they move like horses, they are not ponies. But then....here is all this publicity about this tiny little equine. People who ordinarily don't see Miniatures and don't know anything about miniatures or even horses in general are seeing Einstein. So, now when these people hear "Miniature horse" they think of Einstein--that famous little stallion.
> 
> ...


That is exactly what bothers me. Not that he is a cute horse, but that he is being heavily promoted as a fine example and perfectly proportioned Mini horse. They have said it quite often omht. Now the public heres this, sees him, sees the book about him and now a game about him, the public then believes that this is the standard for a Miniature horse. Yes, I have gotten it quite frequently that people see my horses and are amazed that they are so small and horses. They think all Miniature horses are dwarfs, looking like Einstein.


----------



## Lewella (Feb 5, 2012)

rimmerpaints said:


> I know in human you can do blood work to check chromosomes. I assume you can on horses.


There is no genetic test for dwarfism in Miniature horses like there is for humans. That's why you'll see threads like this speculating on if certain individuals are or are not.


----------



## minimomNC (Feb 5, 2012)

What I don't understand is why so much time is spent on what people who don't know a miniature horse from a standard poodle think in the first place. They probably aren't going to buy a miniature horse and if they do, they will go for the low price low quailty ones in the first place. Someone who truly wants miniature horses will research and see what is correct and what isn't. And as has been said many times, big horse people make fun of minis because of this one example. They think all minis look like this. Thats BS. All of the big horse people that know me, know what a good mini looks like, I show them my champions, I educate them. And if a true horseperson can't tell the difference in a good horse and a bad horse, no matter what the size, then they aren't much of a horse person. As I said somewhere else, I don't have quarter horses but I wouldn't presume all quarter horses horrible from just seeing one bad one. I don't think the entire equine world thinks miniature horses are all horrible because of one little stallion.


----------



## rimmerpaints (Feb 5, 2012)

Lewella said:


> There is no genetic test for dwarfism in Miniature horses like there is for humans. That's why you'll see threads like this speculating on if certain individuals are or are not.



thanks I had no idea on this thought since there is dna chromosome testing for humans maybe there is one for horses.


----------



## lil hoofbeats (Feb 5, 2012)

StarRidgeAcres said:


> beauty most certainly is in the eye of the beholder.
> 
> And as for Jill's question. Not "rude" in my opinion. Just asking what others think. Jill did not put this little dear out there for the public's consumption. His owners did. If they want the perks of flights around the country, hotel stays, notoriety (sp?), then they should be prepared for the other side of the coin. That's part of anyone's 15 minutes of fame.
> 
> Is he adorable? Absolutely. Is he a dwarf? We can't say for sure until there's a genetic test. Does he look like one to me? Absolutely. Would I dare use him for breeding? Never.


Now Thats what I'm scream'in!!!!!!!! I agree with _*ALL*_ of this!!!!!!

We can talk about him all we want to!!!!! Just like we can gossip about any of the other celebrity's out there that have been on the Oprah show!

My motto is, "If you cant take the heat stay out of the kitchen."

I Googled Corona, and they said it should be served with a slice of lime, great suggestion! It was so good i am on my second one!


----------



## disneyhorse (Feb 5, 2012)

minimomNC said:


> What I don't understand is why so much time is spent on what people who don't know a miniature horse from a standard poodle think in the first place. They probably aren't going to buy a miniature horse and if they do, they will go for the low price low quailty ones in the first place. Someone who truly wants miniature horses will research and see what is correct and what isn't. And as has been said many times, big horse people make fun of minis because of this one example. They think all minis look like this. Thats BS. All of the big horse people that know me, know what a good mini looks like, I show them my champions, I educate them. And if a true horseperson can't tell the difference in a good horse and a bad horse, no matter what the size, then they aren't much of a horse person. As I said somewhere else, I don't have quarter horses but I wouldn't presume all quarter horses horrible from just seeing one bad one. I don't think the entire equine world thinks miniature horses are all horrible because of one little stallion.


Not all people who see this are necessarily non-horse people.

I work in a barn, with draft horses. Most of my coworkers own one or more horses. A couple own minis but most do not.

I had a conversation about dwarf minis with them, they had no idea they existed. I googled them on my phone so they could see more photos of adult dwarves, since the original topic came up when one found a photo of a cute dwarf foal in a magazine.

It's all about breed education and promotion, regardless if they are already horse people or not.

Even with the American Shetland... I always cringe when I have to tell any new coworker that I own a Shetland pony. I know they immediately picture a fat, hairy, cranky pony that looks completely opposite the pony you see in my avatar. I always show them a photo or video of him so they know my taste in horses






And you can't tell me that all "good" horse people are free of breed preconceptions and stereotypes. Most quarter horse people I know are pretty dead sure that Arabians are crazy. Who doesn't think most Saddlebreds are super hot? Well, Many of my coworkers think that minis are cute but are only pet quality, with little other uses. They also think that most are illbehaved because they get away with everything. They see photos of show minis in breed magazines and just say they look fake and the way we razor them and groom them is ugly. That's preconceptions that perfectly rational horse people make, and seeing a tiny dwarf spoiled colt named Einstein does nothing to convince them otherwise.

But anyway, I do feel that one of our favorite breeds (or very favorite) should be represented honestly, accurately, and in as good quality as possible.

Andrea


----------



## Minimor (Feb 5, 2012)

> Someone who truly wants miniature horses will research and see what is correct and what isn't.


Really? All too often people don't do that sort of research. Far too many people buy horses without bothering to first educate themselves on what is good conformation and what isn't.
As for the rest of what I was going to say--Andrea beat me to it!


----------



## lil hoofbeats (Feb 5, 2012)

vickie gee said:


> Again, I do not have an opinion as to whether or not he is a dwarf. I am not a scientist. I hear the dwarf gene has been isolated, is recessive, would take two recessive genes to be homozygous, yadda, yadda, yadda. Also hear the gene has not been isolated. Not enough info known to know if it is recessive, domininant, hetero, homo, or what, more yadda, yadda, yadda. I love genetics, I really do but honestly I will leave that up to the experts in the field. If there is currently no test to determine if Einstein or any other horse not blatantly obvious to be a dwarf but for good reason dwarfism is questionable I don't have anything to form an opinion on (which only happens rarely, i.e. Blue Moon). LOL. HOWEVER, I have formed the opinion that:
> 
> 1. Jill means what she says and says what she means. My kind of person who does not beat around the bush. I cannot fault her whatsoever. If she comes across rude, fine. Sometimes people will ignore nice and the point is not taken.
> 
> ...


You are the "_*BOMB*_" Vickie Gee!!!! Watch out for the law suit from me though! I hit my head as i fell in the floor LMAO !!!!!


----------



## Jill (Feb 6, 2012)

My entire "issue" with Einstein, and the reason I started this poll quite a while back, is that he is such a terrible representative of our breed and is to many people THE face of the American Miniature Horse. I was interested to see if most of us saw him as I do (a dwarf).

If miniature horses were mostly like Einstein, I'd never have wanted to own one. I like miniature HORSES that are true horses in miniature and built to enjoy. It's hard to put so much time, emotions, money, and thought into a quality breeding program (as so many members here have) and feel good about Einstein being paraded around.

If he were born here, there would be changes made to our program and while I don't doubt I'd love him, I would not be proud of what we produced. It would sincerely feel like a kick in the stomach...


----------



## rimmerpaints (Feb 6, 2012)

I also love the true minis. The ones that look like a miniature Arabian or Quarter Horse. I have seen some pics on this site that if i didnt know they were minis would have questioned especially the pics that are close up show pics. Minis are so elegant. I LOVE THEM. Dont get me wrong dwarf are cute also. I dont have a dwarf and be honest I have never seen one in person just in pictures. I love my minis even though Robbie Ray and Shortcake are probley to fat and Cloud thinks he is as big as a Clydesdale. They are so much fun and I wouldnt trade them for anything! I have to say Im addicted to the minis and if my husband would let me and my pocket book I would have 100's of them!


----------



## trickhorses (Feb 6, 2012)

Forever Farm said:


> I don't know if it's been mentioned on here yet, but there are some horses that the dwarfism does not become apparent until they are much older. My dwarf mare is a daughter of a well known stallion, and this is her as a five year old. ...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She looks just like Einstein in type. What a great comparison. Thank you for posting. If you painted her black and white - she would be his clone.


----------



## MountainWoman (Feb 8, 2012)

Just wondering about growth rate in dwarfs. I read an article about Einstein and said he stood 20" at 1 year but can't be officially declared the world's smallest stallion until age 4. Owners said they don't expect him to grow. Don't all minis put on some height after first birthday or just not dwarfs?


----------



## Bonny (Feb 8, 2012)

Ok is it just me or what? I am wondering WHY he is being kept as a stallion. Is it to gain the worlds smallest stallion title? I dont know about the owners, so I dont mean to pass judgement, I am just saying if he IS a dwarf no matter how minimal, and wont be used to breed why keep him intact?

I know someone personally who has a very tiny dwarf , who is still an intact stallion...just seems very sad to me.





If the consensus is that a nice stallion would make a great gelding than certainly in this instance it should be true?

Course maybe he IS gelded?


----------



## Jill (Feb 8, 2012)

I'm pretty sure he's still a stallion and yes, I think to obtain "The Title"


----------



## tagalong (Feb 9, 2012)

> I know someone personally who has a very tiny dwarf , who is still an intact stallion...just seems very sad to me.


Our little Cowboy - the resident dwarf/pet/mascot - is 10 years old this year - and yes, a stallion. Only because none of the local vets felt comfortable about sedating him in order to geld him as they were worried about his reaction to the anesthetic. Cowboy gets to wander around the yard as he pleases and has his "man-cave" deep in the rhododendrons. Even if he were able to get into the pasture with the mares, he could never breed them - he is too short and unable to rear up on his hind legs, anyway. They would have to lay down on their backs for him - and that is not going to happen! None of the mares take him seriously, anyway. He is happy. He is loved. He is sure he is the herd sire around here - who needs all those fancy bigger stallions? He will be cared for all his days - he has already lasted longer than many dwarves with his degree of foreleg and bite issues.

There is nothing sad about Cowboy still being a stallion...


----------



## Eagle (Feb 9, 2012)

Good for you Tagalong, he sounds like a very happy and loved boy! Can we see a pic please





I have just found a frightening article in an Italian horse magazine about him:

Einstein isn't a dwarf, he is just small. Doctor Rachel Wagner, partner of Einstein's owner Judy, explained. Most mini horses are dwarfs and show several physical deformities, in other words they are not completely healthy but not Einstein, he is identical to a normal size horse, he is just 5 times smaller." 

*I am speechless!!*


----------



## tagalong (Feb 9, 2012)

Eagle said:


> Good for you Tagalong, he sounds like a very happy and loved boy! Can we see a pic please


I'm looking for one - I know I have posted him here in the past... think _"magnificent silver dapple stallion greeting his subjects and surveying his kingdom"_...


----------



## Lori W (Feb 9, 2012)

Eagle said:


> I have just found a frightening article in an Italian horse magazine about him:
> 
> Einstein isn't a dwarf, he is just small. Doctor Rachel Wagner, partner of Einstein's owner Judy, explained. Most mini horses are dwarfs and show several physical deformities, in other words they are not completely healthy but not Einstein, he is identical to a normal size horse, he is just 5 times smaller."
> 
> *I am speechless!!*


Unbelievable! How many people will read this and think it's true?? Maybe you should write a letter to the editor about it, Renee. Educate the readers!


----------



## StarRidgeAcres (Feb 9, 2012)

Eagle said:


> Einstein isn't a dwarf, he is just small. Doctor Rachel Wagner, partner of Einstein's owner Judy, explained. *Most* mini horses *are dwarfs* and show several physical deformities, in other words they are not completely healthy *but not Einstein*, he is identical to a normal size horse, he is just 5 times smaller."



O M G!








Well, for all those that have steadfastly supported them, believed in them, and stood ready to pounce on those that didn't...well, I wonder how they feel now?

If it isn't clear to everyone that these people are interested money, and nothing else. Those comments are blatantly WRONG. So much for being interested in the betterment of the breed. Let's just throw them all under the bus. Seriously? "Most mini horses are dwarfs and show several physical deformities...but not Einstein." Really?


----------



## wwminis (Feb 9, 2012)

I can't believe that anyone in there right mind would say that about all miniature horses!!




They need to get their facts straight before they print something that hurts the whole miniature horse world! Such a shame!

Bill


----------



## Jill (Feb 9, 2012)

Eagle said:


> Good for you Tagalong, he sounds like a very happy and loved boy! Can we see a pic please
> 
> 
> 
> ...



WOW... If that is an accurate quote, my opinion of the owners is really in the toilet. Really doing a disservice to our breed.


----------



## Songcatcher (Feb 9, 2012)

> I have just found a frightening article in an Italian horse magazine about him:
> 
> 
> > Einstein isn't a dwarf, he is just small. Doctor Rachel Wagner, partner of Einstein's owner Judy, explained. Most mini horses are dwarfs and show several physical deformities, in other words they are not completely healthy but not Einstein, he is identical to a normal size horse, he is just 5 times smaller."
> ...


I believe they have just been given enough rope to hang themselves.


----------



## Eagle (Feb 9, 2012)

I am interested in writing to this magazine, I want to find out if it is a true quote as Jill said or if it is a translation error, in which case I would expect a pubblicated apology to miniature horses.


----------



## Suzie (Feb 9, 2012)

Not all big horse people can instantly recognize a dwarf. I know 2 ladies who owned big horses for years and they bought a mini from a "reputable" breeder, then found out from their vet when the mini had health problems what they really had on their hands. By then, they were attached to the little thing. They decided to keep it, try and find a companion for it, did everything. When they found out the internal health problems it would suffer would make its life abnormally short, they were furious! But boy, ask them what they think about the person who sold it to them and stand back for an earful.

So sad that the one horse that seems to be thrust into the spotlight for minis has to be this one. But it seems always the case. The weird and unusual seem to garner all the spotlight. PT Barnum made a fortune on that premise.


----------



## ohmt (Feb 9, 2012)

Let's not make assumptions. This old thread has already been brought back to life yet again to do more bashing, getting upset over something that could easily (and most likely) be attributed to something not under the owner's control is completely ridiculous.

A reply to minimor's reply to me a few days ago: it very much pertained to MY post. If we are going to pick at those who have posted things that do not answer the question of "is Einstein a dwarf?", there are pages of them before mine.


----------



## Jill (Feb 9, 2012)

I don't think it's bashing. We're all passionate about our breed, and really, I do think the owners parading around such a poor example of a miniature horse -- and not just conformationally, but also behavior wise -- does a disservice to the breed and I don't appreciate it. It sounds like many others feel the same way. It's a valid point of view and is not bashing.


----------



## ohmt (Feb 9, 2012)

Some of it is definitely bashing, Jill. I know the thread was made to start good conversation on the topic and I know most, if not everyone has the best intentions for the breed in mind, which of course I cannot fault. But there have been many comments that have definitely crossed the line. You are right, it is a valid point of view that has been reiterated quite often on this thread, though most did not state it quite as politely as you just did and often went on to make unfair assumptions concerning Einstein's owners. I am not saying it ALL has been bashing, but you can not deny that there has been plenty of that as well. I will leave it alone now though-no more lectures from me on manners. I'm going to go look up pictures of chubby puppies. Nothing puts me in a better mood than chubby puppies


----------



## Bonny (Feb 9, 2012)

tagalong said:


> Our little Cowboy - the resident dwarf/pet/mascot - is 10 years old this year - and yes, a stallion. Only because none of the local vets felt comfortable about sedating him in order to geld him as they were worried about his reaction to the anesthetic. Cowboy gets to wander around the yard as he pleases and has his "man-cave" deep in the rhododendrons. Even if he were able to get into the pasture with the mares, he could never breed them - he is too short and unable to rear up on his hind legs, anyway. They would have to lay down on their backs for him - and that is not going to happen! None of the mares take him seriously, anyway. He is happy. He is loved. He is sure he is the herd sire around here - who needs all those fancy bigger stallions? He will be cared for all his days - he has already lasted longer than many dwarves with his degree of foreleg and bite issues.
> 
> There is nothing sad about Cowboy still being a stallion...


There may be nothing 'sad' about your dwarf stallion still being intact, Thats your opinion I am not here to debate it.I certainly understand not gelding for medical reasons. I am not attacking you personally, However this dwarf I was referring to was very much indeed a sad case, in many ways. I was also referring to Einstein who IMO should be gelded IF he isnt for many reasons...One because to NOT geld for sole purpose to have the world smallest stallion title, who is going to represent the breed, as the smallest stallion, that title should go (IMO)to the conformationaly correct smallest stallion, not a dwarf. Which I believe he is.


----------



## Riverrose28 (Feb 9, 2012)

Oh my, I'll probably regret posting this in the morning, as I can't remember if I've posted on this thread before or not. It was here then disappeared then resurfaced again. I have a dwarf, she was born here, yes, a product of bad breeding, she wasn't registered and hopfully unless I pass away first will remain here. She has just as many deformaties on the inside as out, and doesn't cycle, thank goodness. My vet keeps her comfortable. Do we love her yes, do we care for her, yes, do we promote her, NO! Many years ago when I first started educating myself on minis I decided to jump in, I bought two, when I took pictures into work to show them off one of the vets I worked for said, Wow you have two new arabs, I said no, I have two new minis. He said well I thought all minis were dwarfs! He was shocked as was I. My horses, home bred, have won many championships and I proud of them, I'm also shocked at what was posted about most minis being dwarves! That is simply not true, as most of us know. Maybe we should be more proactive and promote our good quality horses, such as with newspaper articles, demos, etc. and show the public what a true mini looks like. all horses bortn into this world need to be loved and cared for by the people that brought them into this world including dwarves. If this little guy is loved and cared for, great, I only wish his current owners would stop trying to promote him to the public.


----------



## Eagle (Feb 10, 2012)

Terry, you have said it!! We shouldn't really get upset about these people promoting what we consider to be not a good example when none of us promote our minis. Who has a champion, good charactered, healthy mini should get out there and promote it, not as the smallest but as the best. People love to hear about minis and see them do tricks. So come on! get promoting


----------



## Suzie (Feb 10, 2012)

For those who don't know- Horse Illustrated is doing a special edition on the American Miniature Horse in their May issue. Supposedly it will have:

"We will have a full comprehensive article including history, and popular uses, myths about small equines and Miniatures used in therapy"....

I will be very interested to see if they use Einstein in their article. Based on his current popularity, I am not sure they can get by not mentioning him but it will be interesting to see their take on his status. It would be a good chance to promote the conformation of a true representative of the miniature horse industry.


----------



## Jill (Feb 10, 2012)

Eagle said:


> Terry, you have said it!! We shouldn't really get upset about these people promoting what we consider to be not a good example when none of us promote our minis. Who has a champion, good charactered, healthy mini should get out there and promote it, not as the smallest but as the best. People love to hear about minis and see them do tricks. So come on! get promoting


Really doubt the major media would have an ouce of interest. Wish that wasn't the case... They're looking for "extreme" examples and smallest corners that market. I think those of us who do parades, open shows, and drive in parks / public do the most to promote our breed to the public but that's not going to make it on CNN. I can't count the number of times people have been surprised that my minis look like "real horses", and I know so many of you have been told the same. Including at open horse shows where everyone there is a horse person, and most haven't seen a quality miniature horse.


----------



## Jill (Feb 10, 2012)

Suzie said:


> For those who don't know- Horse Illustrated is doing a special edition on the American Miniature Horse in their May issue. Supposedly it will have:
> 
> "We will have a full comprehensive article including history, and popular uses, myths about small equines and Miniatures used in therapy"....



That's awesome



:yeah


----------



## targetsmom (Feb 10, 2012)

Just curious - how tall IS Einstein??? Is he smaller than Bond Tiny Tim (registered at 18" I believe)?

ETA: I looked up Bond Tiny Tim and he was 19" in AMHA not 18".


----------



## KanoasDestiny (Feb 10, 2012)

Sadly people are drawn to the tiny ones. Everyone knows that 'ponies' exist and anything over 34" looks like a pony. People are drawn to the 'dog sized' ones. The only reason I got into minis is because I read a story about how a tiny mini was used as a seeing eye horse. She wore tiny childrens shoes and a dog harness. Thats exactly what I wanted and to this day when I hear of a mini horse, I think of that special adorable little fuzzy girl. I love my two minis but they are both above the 30" mark, hardly the size I drempt about. I get why you guys are so upset, but having just seen some recent video of him, I think he is adorable, happy, and loved. His flaws really aren't anything that stands out as freakish, and lot of people who don't have a conformation eye wouldn't even notice them. I don't think them promoting him is a bad thing, I think it's bringing peoples attention to the breed and from there, alot of them will learn about sizes, conformation, etc.


----------



## Riverdance (Feb 10, 2012)

> Einstein isn't a dwarf, he is just small. Doctor Rachel Wagner, partner of Einstein's owner Judy, explained. Most mini horses are dwarfs and show several physical deformities, in other words they are not completely healthy but not Einstein, he is identical to a normal size horse, he is just 5 times smaller." *I am speechless!!*



The key word here is: Doctor Rachel Wagner is a PARTNER of owner Judy. She is part of this nonsense that Einstein is a perfect little horse, buying and promoting him for the money that the media blitz, books and now games (OMG) that they are making off of this poor DWARF.


----------



## Margo_C-T (Feb 10, 2012)

I am not sure about the validity of comparison with Bond Tiny Tim, who WAS indisputably a (bracheocephalic, I believe?) dwarf...though I suppose the 'precedence' of Bond Tiny Tim could be pointed out when/if claims are 'officially'made that Einstein is "the world's smallest stallion". Of course, they could claim "living" as a distinction. If you have seen photos of BTT, his dwarfism is abundantly clear.( I have an original magazine article[NOT from any miniature horse magazine!] my son brought home to me quite some years back, with photos and text, of an interview w/ C.M. Bond, about his breeding practices, along with pics of BTT and two of his (also obviously the same type of dwarf)sons--though as I recall, dwarfism was never acknowledged...);Naive to the practices of the internet, I posted it here once upon a time, and the image was 'appropriated' by others, I later came to realize...as the photos have since been posted by others w/o acknowledgement of how they came to have them.

Oh, yeah...if accurately quoted, that statement by the owner's partner is as untrue, and self-serving as can possibly BE, and removes any doubt as to the 'purity' of their motives in their self-serving promotion of the little animal...I mean, REALLY!!

Margo


----------



## MountainWoman (Feb 11, 2012)

targetsmom said:


> Just curious - how tall IS Einstein??? Is he smaller than Bond Tiny Tim (registered at 18" I believe)?
> 
> ETA: I looked up Bond Tiny Tim and he was 19" in AMHA not 18".


I read an article Einstein was 20" at one year.


----------



## tagalong (Feb 11, 2012)

*Margo* - those photos and others of Bond Tiny Tim have been all over the internet for many years... and used by many people. So do not worry that you accidently spread anything that you shouldn't have.


----------

