# Unexpected breeding : /



## Suebe (Mar 13, 2015)

Hi everyone I'm new to the board, happy to find it as I have a few questions & concerns and was hoping for input. Two of my mini mares escaped their pasture for the first time ever a few nights ago, they managed to knock off a wood panel. One is about 6 years old, 34 inches and the other is 32 inches and going to be 2 at the end of May. Well these girls walked all the way to the other side of our property where we keep a couple regular size geldings and our Haflinger Stallion, 14HH. I'm pretty sure they were teasing him because he ended up jumping a 5 foot fence to be with them without touching it! By the time I realized something was going on it had probably been a couple hours. Around 2am I heard the stallion neighing and something didn't sit right with me so I walked out to find them all grazing together. The fact that he was calm and just grazing tells me the excitement was over if you know what I mean, I plan on giving the horsey morning after pills/injections at 20 days post possible breeding?! Do you think he could have managed to breed to these shorter girls? Does that medication cause any dangerous side affects? Is it risky? I heard it causes sweating & cramping and I'm afraid it will make my younger one sick! Wondering if you thought it was ok to let the older mare have the baby if she's pregnant but for sure terminate the younger ones pregnancy if she is in fact pregnant???? Thanks in advance!!!


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## lkblazin (Mar 13, 2015)

Wow!! I do not exactly see how that would have been too successful. There probably would have been some serious well back problems on the mares side. Very lucky they are not hurt.

No I would not let the older mare proceed with the pregnancy ( if she is indeed pregnant) the fetus would kill her. Call a vet right away to find out if they have ever come across this before. I may be completely wrong so hopefully someone else will respond. If in that case disregard my post. I hope you get this figured out.


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## Suebe (Mar 13, 2015)

lkblazin said:


> Wow!! I do not exactly see how that would have been too successful. There probably would have been some serious well back problems on the mares side. Very lucky they are not hurt.
> 
> No I would not let the older mare proceed with the pregnancy ( if she is indeed pregnant) the fetus would kill her. Call a vet right away to find out if they have ever come across this before. I may be completely wrong so hopefully someone else will respond. If in that case disregard my post. I hope you get this figured out.


Thank you! Appreciate your thoughts!!! Actually I called my vet immediately that morning! He's the one who explained he could give them basically the equivalent of a morning after pill except it's given at 20 days post breeding. He also said never in his 25 years as a vet has he seen a mini horse give birth to a baby too large just because of a breeding to a regular size horse, he said the body knows it's limits and the baby will not get bigger then the uterus will allow. The mares were completely unharmed and not distressed at all. I'm guessing he stood over them not on top of their back if it happened at all, that would make no sense since they're a decent amount tinier. They're rears and down there legs were suspicious of moisture but they were probably squirting and teasing him


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## Suebe (Mar 13, 2015)

I guess I'm really hoping to hear what you all have to say about a possible pregnancy in the older mare, do you feel the stallion could have succeeded??? A for sure termination at 20 days post breeding for the younger one. Has anyone given this hormone that puts the mare back in to heat?! I hear it can cause side effects but my vet says he hasn't seen anything to awful ugh nervous because he says sweating and cramping but supposedly not colic type cramping?!!! Also has anyone had a mini mare give birth to foal from a large pony stallion???


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## chandab (Mar 13, 2015)

Plenty of minis have had horrible dystocias due to an overly large foal.


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## Suebe (Mar 13, 2015)

Here's a photo of the stallion standing next to our grey mini gelding and the buckskin in the back is the younger mare he might have bred to. The other mare is at least 2 inches bigger then the buckskin. This is purely for you to see the height difference, might help.


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## Suebe (Mar 13, 2015)

chandab said:


> Plenty of minis have had horrible dystocias due to an overly large foal.


My question is...are you sure that dystopias is always due to a foal being to large? My vet is conviced that there are many reasons for that to happen and isn't usually related to size?! Just a thought, thank you


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## AnnaC (Mar 14, 2015)

It is not just the height difference between a mare and a suitable stallion but more about bone structure. The mare MIGHT be able to restrict the foal's size but a small 'heavily' built foal is certainly going to cause trouble at the birth with probably a fatal outcome. Sorry but there is no way that I would take the chance of a pregnancy under these circumstances. Go ahead with the termination injections - yes your girls will probably have a couple of uncomfortable days, but they will recover and you will have two happy healthy mares to breed in the future should you wish. Good luck!


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## MyGoldenSunny (Mar 14, 2015)

Hi, and welcome!

Your horses are beautiful!! From the pic, it looks like your stud is short enought to breed them. I don't put anything past a stud! I have even heard of miniature studs breeding "big" mare as they are laying down. They find some way to get the job done. And as you said they were all calm.....like he did breed them. If he had not I'm sure he would have still been trying.

I would be worried for your little girls tho. I hope everything goes good for you and your girls!

I just got two new mini mare that before I got them the owner gave them an abortion shot last summer. Although I didnt see or know the mares at that time, they are fine now and I dont see any bad effects that may have occurred.


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## lkblazin (Mar 14, 2015)

Interesting I never new they could restrict the size. I thought genetics would control that. Either way I do agree with chandab


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## Suebe (Mar 14, 2015)

Thanks everyone I do see what you're saying and of course wouldn't want anything to happen! I have 6 minis all sizes never really measured them just guesses on height. Well today after hearing what everyone was saying I walked out and measured a few of them. The actual low down, which surprised me is...I measured the 6 year old mare at 39 inches! :O and my stallion closer to 13.3HH Btw my almost 2 year old mare was 36 inches. Knowing this and seeing my stallion is not big boned or big in anyway, does that change anyone's feelings on just the older mare going through with it, assuming "it" happened of course?! There's no question on the younger mare, she's getting the hormone injection to terminate. Thank you for making me feel more comfortable about the hormone injection as well! I was surprised that my tiniest boys were 30 inches haha! I really thought they were smaller


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## Suebe (Mar 14, 2015)

Here's my stallion next to the 6 year old mare he might have bred with, she's the one behind the smaller gelding in the front. He is on down hill a tiny but really the height difference isn't that extreme for these two, do you agree at all?


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## MyGoldenSunny (Mar 14, 2015)

So that means he is only 13" taller then her correct? If that is the case I would say he was very much able to breed her!

I would not say "extreme" difference in height, but not sure about the build. Is he full haflinger? Haflingers are in the draft family and that would be my concern. They are quite heavy built. And her being taller, but a smaller frame is worrisome. It has to do with both hight and build.

To me it would be how much you like your mare, and if it is worth the risk. A lot of minis have trouble even when bred to a smaller stallion, and I have known people who breed miniatures to welsh studs and they do fine. Personally I would never do that.

So really I think it's up to you and what you feel comfortable with : )


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## Suebe (Mar 14, 2015)

MyGoldenSunny said:


> So that means he is only 13" taller then her correct? If that is the case I would say he was very much able to breed her!
> 
> I would not say "extreme" difference in height, but not sure about the build. Is he full haflinger? Haflingers are in the draft family and that would be my concern. They are quite heavy built. And her being taller, but a smaller frame is worrisome. It has to do with both hight and build.
> 
> ...


I love my minis! I love all my animals, my everyday life basically revolves around them




) yes he's a registered haflinger stallion but much more slight frame then our registered Haflinger mare we planned on breeding him to, she's very stocky and actually larger for her breed at 14.3 HH, then we were going to geld him as he's a wonderful boy to ride! I've met several of my stallions half brothers and they're all much more slight then the Belgium breeding of our Haflinger mare. The difference in height between the 6 year old mare & the stallion is about 15-16 inches.


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## MyGoldenSunny (Mar 14, 2015)

Well he is beautiful!!! I once had two Haflingers, most amazing horses!!! Haflingers and miniatures are my two fave breeds. As of now I only have 4 minis, but I'm saving for a haflinger gypsy cross! Can't wait for that!

I hope all goes well with your girls, whatever you decide! May I ask where are you located?


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## Suebe (Mar 14, 2015)

MyGoldenSunny said:


> Well he is beautiful!!! I once had two Haflingers, most amazing horses!!! Haflingers and miniatures are my two fave breeds. As of now I only have 4 minis, but I'm saving for a haflinger gypsy cross! Can't wait for that!
> 
> I hope all goes well with your girls, whatever you decide! May I ask where are you located?


Thank you!



)) Gypsy Vanners are by far my very favorite breedSo that should be quite an impressive cross!!! I'm located in Southern California where there's next to no Gypsy Vanners unless you're willing to pay about 15k. I hope your share a pic when you get that beauty!


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## Suebe (Mar 14, 2015)

lkblazin said:


> Interesting I never new they could restrict the size. I thought genetics would control that. Either way I do agree with chandab


Actually I did a little research the last day or so since my vet is not concerned in the least but others seem to feel different. I found claims supporting how you and the others feel but also people that have had this happen, with a greater size difference in some cases and interestingly enough the babies were born the size of mini foals but by yearlings most were well over12hh. My vet insists while genetics plays a part in size it will show up as the baby grows after it's birth. I'm very torn on what to do only with my more mature mare. Not sure I want to terminate a life if the situation is ok. Which I'm still not totally convinced either way. The other mare is way to young! Babies should never have babies.


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## MyGoldenSunny (Mar 14, 2015)

I'm going to PM you


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##  (Mar 15, 2015)

My advice is to treat both with the morning after shot. While there are those that believe the size of the mare will determine the size of the foal I don't believe that by a long shot. I've known too many times when a mare has tried to deliver a foal that is too large for her and the consequences were the lose of the foal AND mare. Over the many years of breeding, I have personal experience with this on three occasions. The first was when a mare I purchased -- a 28" mare -- I found had been bred to a 36" stallion. I was able to extract the foal but the mare never bred again, even though the vet said she was healthy. The second was a 32" maiden mare I purchased bred who after 2 hours we had to put down. Autopsy showed a huge baby that never would have been delivered. she was only bred to a slightly taller stallion and the reason for the huge foal was, I believe, the heavy bone structure of the stallion lines. In the third case we saved the mare but she had neurological damage from the difficult birth, and I sold her as a pet so she would 't be bred again.

We do the best we can for these special ladies, and I personally wouldn't take the risk the vet's prediction would be wrong.


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## Suebe (Mar 15, 2015)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> My advice is to treat both with the morning after shot. While there are those that believe the size of the mare will determine the size of the foal I don't believe that by a long shot. I've known too many times when a mare has tried to deliver a foal that is too large for her and the consequences were the lose of the foal AND mare. Over the many years of breeding, I have personal experience with this on three occasions. The first was when a mare I purchased -- a 28" mare -- I found had been bred to a 36" stallion. I was able to extract the foal but the mare never bred again, even though the vet said she was healthy. The second was a 32" maiden mare I purchased bred who after 2 hours we had to put down. Autopsy showed a huge baby that never would have been delivered. she was only bred to a slightly taller stallion and the reason for the huge foal was, I believe, the heavy bone structure of the stallion lines. In the third case we saved the mare but she had neurological damage from the difficult birth, and I sold her as a pet so she would 't be bred again.
> We do the best we can for these special ladies, and I personally wouldn't take the risk the vet's prediction would be wrong.[/quote
> 
> Thank you, appreciate your thoughts


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## AnnaC (Mar 16, 2015)

Diane makes a good point regarding the stallion lines - just because your beautiful boy is lghter in build, he still carries the normal heavier boned lines behind in his breeding. and can easily throw these into any future foals. Also, as you are obviously a very caring owner, I feel that if you let this pregnancy go ahead you are going to spend the next year stressing about whether you have done the right thing or not, and the stress levels are just going to rise as the foaling date gets nearer - not something that i would want to put myself through as any 'normal' breeding is stressful enough!


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## bevann (Mar 16, 2015)

Get the shot for both mares.I love and respect my vets(both equine&canine).After breeding dogs for over 42 years and horses for over 30 years I have learned that the best advice regarding birthing and breeding issues have come from other breeders, not my vets.Breeders deal with issues on a daily or weekly basis.Vets have multiple issues in a practice and breeding and foaling issues are usually not at the top of the list(unless your vet is a repro or foaling specialist)My best advice has come from those who are in the trenches with the problem.I have used the shots and the side effects are minimal and don't last long.I have had the bad experience of having to cut a foal from a mare because she could not have the baby(head turned back over shoulders)and she had been bred to the same small stallion before.Watching your mare sweat and cramp some is nothing compared to almost losing her in a bad foaling situation.Please listen to the experienced breeders on here and get the shots.


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## Ryan Johnson (Mar 16, 2015)

I also agree with the above Posts. I wouldn't hesitate for a second in giving any of my mares the shot. As bevann said, the side effects are minimal compared to what your mare may go thru at the end of this pregnancy

best of Luck in whichever path you decide to travel.

Please don't take this the wrong way , I mean it in the nicest way and Im not trying to sound negative......... But ...........................You have the choice now , you may not have the choice in the end when its too late






Ryan


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Mar 16, 2015)

I'd get them both injected. It's not worth the risk for a random foal.


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## Suebe (Mar 17, 2015)

I didn't tell you all this but prior to this happening with the Haflinger I put my 6 year mare with our mini stallion, it was February which isn't the most viable heat month but she showed that first heat of the season and I decided to go with it. She spent several days with him, what if she's already pregnant by him



this isn't about the almost two year anymore she's getting the injection. I love my minis, I wouldn't do anything to risk their lives ever but I'm so torn, ugh so distraught over this entire episode



((


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## chandab (Mar 17, 2015)

Talk to your vet about ultra-sounding the older mare or palpating her (if he'll do a mini, some won't due to the size). If she is pregnant, the size of the pregnancy should tell him if it just occurred a few days ago or 28 days ago.


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## Lepeppylass (Mar 17, 2015)

Its early enough in the year that I would give both the shot, and if you wanted a baby from the older mare, put her back in with the mini stud. the sooner the better really. this whole situation is just adding up to a lot of extra stress, and that isn't good for anybody!


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## Suebe (Mar 17, 2015)

I hear what you're all saying and I so agree for the most part...I can't do the injecttion until the 30th per the vet, that's the magic number for termination so maybe it wouldn't hurt to do a wee foal 38 on the older mare just prior to the 30th. She could never come out positive from the Haflingef by then, it would have to be the minis stallions baby. Chandab and yes my vet doesn't like to palpate minis just due to their size, or ultra sound due to going through the rear, doesn't think its a good thing with the little ones although my mare is not very little for a mini


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## chandab (Mar 17, 2015)

You can see if your vet would do a transdermal US (across the outside of the belly), but they aren't as accurate as internal.


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Mar 17, 2015)

Weefoal38 are not in my opinion good enough to go by. the only way to sort it is to get the mare scanned internally if the vet won't do that get the shot. She can always go with the mini stallion again, if she dies due to a large stallions foal she won't.


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##  (Mar 17, 2015)

I'd still go with the shots and breed your older mare on her next heat cycle. It's still early on the breeding season, and you'll have a good breeding date to go by for the expected delivery date. Then, your worries will be over wondering for an entire pregnancy about the possibility of a problem arising. Breeding can have enough drama without that type of worry. But we are here for you no matter what you decide, and will work hard to get baby safely on the ground.


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## lkblazin (Mar 17, 2015)

I agree with Diane


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## Suebe (Mar 22, 2015)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> I'd still go with the shots and breed your older mare on her next heat cycle. It's still early on the breeding season, and you'll have a good breeding date to go by for the expected delivery date. Then, your worries will be over wondering for an entire pregnancy about the possibility of a problem arising. Breeding can have enough drama without that type of worry. But we are here for you no matter what you decide, and will work hard to get baby safely on the ground.
> I really appreciate your advice and that you offer to help regardless of what I decide, that means a lot. I don't want to put my mare in any danger so I'll most likely do as you all think is best and give both the hormone


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## Lepeppylass (Mar 22, 2015)

Just wanted to say I really love your Haffy boy. He is gorgeous! Whatever you decide we'll be here when it comes time to have that baby!


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## Suebe (Mar 23, 2015)

Lepeppylass said:


> Just wanted to say I really love your Haffy boy. He is gorgeous! Whatever you decide we'll be here when it comes time to have that baby!


Thank you so much, he's a really good boy, getting a bad rap at the moment  lol but seriously I really appreciate the kindness & understanding


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## Lepeppylass (Mar 23, 2015)

Someday we'll buy a Haflinger to add to our collection. They're my hubby's favorite breed ever since he met the one I used to show.


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## Suebe (Apr 4, 2015)

Hi everyone



my mares had 1 cc two days in a row of Lutalyse. I was suppose to give it a 3rd day today but I chose not too because the side effect on my younger mare freaked me out a bit, I was scared I'm not going to lie! The first dose had no effect at all, acted like nothing happened, but last night around 15 minutes post injection she started running up & down her pasture fencing in sort of a panic, sweating and eventually rolling. I fed her as I gave the injection to keep her mind off of it, shes not one to ever walk away from a meal, she did though after that shot so I knew it was bad! I gave her a small dose of Bananine which I believe really helped! I've googled this several times now and feel 2 days with 1cc each should be sufficient?! Any opinions as to if I did the wrong thing? Hope all is well with everyone


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##  (Apr 4, 2015)

I hope Dr. Taylor will stop in and share some information on this. I've had the shot given before, but it was as one injection, not over three shots, so I'm unsure what to advise. I would suggest you contact your vet to advise the reaction and confirm the dosage she received was sufficient. Her reaction seems to be along the same lines of those mares I've had treated, so she will be fine, I'm sure. A bit difficult to watch, since we love our horses and don't like to see them in discomfort, but it was for her good, although the decision was hard to make, I believe you did the right thing in treating her.


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## MyGoldenSunny (Apr 4, 2015)

Sorry to hear your filly had a bad reaction! I hope she is doing ok now! I friend of mine told me that she just gave her mares one shot and it worked. I'm not expeanced in this tho.. Wish I could help


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## lkblazin (Apr 4, 2015)

Hope she feels better soon


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## Ryan Johnson (Apr 7, 2015)

Hope she feels better. I cant be of help either as the only experience I have had with this was as above being only one injection.

Saying that..............before my vet administered the shot she explained to me there could be side effects. These being the ones your little mare has had, sweating, running around , rolling ect.

The shot that was given to my mare , if I remember correctly was a PG injection and what it did was to start her cycling within a few days. Unfortunately if a mare is pregnant it will abort the foetus.

Hope she is feeling better


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## Suebe (Apr 9, 2015)

Thank you everyone, she felt better rather quickly after the Banimine but the reaction to the shot was way to scary for me to have the courage to give her the 3rd injection. I appreciate your knowledge of how many injections you all had experience with and I too saw online when I tried googling that one shot had been a dose for many people with their horses. I hope I did the right thing! I never noticed her go into heat after which I thought was suppose to happen



(( ugh I'm so nervous I feel like I'm going to throw up!


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## MyGoldenSunny (Apr 9, 2015)

Aww I'm so sorry, I bet that is a really hard thing to do : ( from what I hear if they have that reaction I think that means it worked. We are all here for you and your sweet little girls.


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## chandab (Apr 10, 2015)

Keep watching for her to come into heat, I think it takes a few days after the shot for them to cycle; but not certain.


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##  (Apr 11, 2015)

As Chandra said, this will bring them into cycling, but it takes a few days. All good that you were such a caring and loving 'momma' for them!


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## bevann (Apr 11, 2015)

the side effects of the shot(sweating and cramping for a short time) are very minimal when compared to having a foal that is too large for the mare to deliver and having to cut the baby apart to get it out or having to put the mare down because you and the vet can't get the baby out.Been there done both of those horrible things.I am glad I am no longer breeding.I just enjoy babies here on the Forum and visit other farms where people are still gutsy enough to have foals.I bred Minis for over 20 years and never had 1 year when I didn't lose at least 1 foal or even a mare.My mares were on monitors and I even slept in the stalls with them and still lost babies.Breeding is not for the faint of heart.I do hope things work out for the best for you.Keep us posted


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## Kim P (Apr 12, 2015)

Sounds scary having to watch her go through all that but at least you know that she will be okay.


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## Suebe (Apr 13, 2015)

I never saw them go into heat after the injections, Is that bad?! I have a mini stallion that lives in the pasture next to my mares and they usually show heat, it's noticeable, should I be worried?


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## SummerTime (Apr 14, 2015)

I don't know anything about the shot, but maybe they just got thrown off of their regular cycle a little bit? I would keep up with how many days it's been and watch to see if they come back in. I wouldn't be worried just yet ?


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## Suebe (Apr 15, 2015)

SummerTime said:


> I don't know anything about the shot, but maybe they just got thrown off of their regular cycle a little bit? I would keep up with how many days it's been and watch to see if they come back in. I wouldn't be worried just yet


I'll do that! Thank you! I was stressing a bit because the vet said I should notice a heat in 3-5 days after the injection


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## paintponylvr (Apr 15, 2015)

If you didn't follow thru w/ the 3rd injection (the dose prescribed for your mare), then she may not have aborted a possible fetus and she wouldn't come back into heat.

Yes, they should have come back in w/i 3-5 days - at least they always did when I worked with a vet AND did my own. I hated messing w/ hormone shots - painful to the horse, painful to watch the reactions to the symptoms. But "short cycling" is still considered normal and is still done according to my regular vet now.

When my DR changed up mine - I thought I was dying w/ from the pain!

I suggest you also talk to your vet again. To find out what the next step is...

Cute mares - hope you get this resolved soon!


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## SummerTime (Apr 15, 2015)

Some mares come into quiet heats, do you think this could be the case with your girls? Maybe it was just not a strong heat? I'm so sorry that your going through this and it's worrisome.

I wonder if you should ask your vet about it and then maybe get another vets second opinion? Just to ease your mind...


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## MyGoldenSunny (Apr 15, 2015)

I'm wondering about these shots. I just got a mini mare a month ago, previous owner gave her one shot to abort last summer. Not sure if it worked because now she is looking pregnant. I would also ask the vet. Maybe they could do an US, but I would think if she had the bad reaction that it may have worked. Never know about these things tho. You are doing great in taking care of your girls!


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## Suebe (Jun 1, 2015)

I JUST WANT TO SCREAM!!! Hi everyone! Hope all has been positive around here



) I made it very clear I didn't want to breed my younger girl, the one who I gave the "morning after" injections to, she turned two years old on May 23rd. I moved our mini stallion to a pasture next to my mini mares just for a couple days while my husband put up some new fencing at his usual pasture. Someone left the adjoining gate to the mares open yesterday, probably the kids because they are use to the mares being able to go back and forth in both pastures. So here I am again with a similar issue seeing that my two year old was in heat the day before. This time though if he bred her he's only about 28 inches tall and she's about 34 inches. Do I leave this alone? I literally cried! This filly is my bottle baby, I practically feel like I gave birth to her myself lol, I never ever planned on breeding her but why crap happens just makes me crazy! Ugh


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## Tremor (Jun 1, 2015)

Dose her again. That's what I would do. Or even talk to your vet about keeping some doses on hand if more of these instances happen.


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##  (Jun 1, 2015)

I'd certainly discuss it with your vet. So sorry this happened to you, but these things do happen and where there is a will, there is always a way!! Don't beat yourself up -- these "boys and girls" have minds of their own.


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## Ryan Johnson (Jun 1, 2015)

Oh No



Yeah I agree Id be talking to your vet. Don't beat yourself up, boys will be boys and even a fence wont stop them from getting what they want at times.

I agree with tremor in getting the vet to give her a shot , 2yo is a little too young for breeding but that's just my opinion


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## Suebe (Jun 2, 2015)

Ugh I really don't want to give her the shots again



(( was awful!!! But I also never wanted her having a baby! I'm not sure they even bred...btw I've never noticed my other mare go back into heat since she & my two year old snuck out with the Haflinger stallion, so a vet visit is in order anyway I guess

Appreciate everyone who stopped by and gave their thoughts


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## MyGoldenSunny (Jun 2, 2015)

Oh I'm so sorry! 2 is young but she would be 3 by the time of foaling. Some others posted to give the shot, but imo I wouldn't. I would not be so quick to end a "possible" life. She may not even be bred. : ) best wishes for you an her!


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##  (Jun 2, 2015)

If you decide not to give her the shot, don't fret. I've bred many a 2 year old -- especially the girls who were tall with nice hips, and were more "mare-like" and less "baby-like". You have to judge her maturity, and I think you said she's around 34" -- so with good care and nutrition, she may do just fine. But you have to decide for yourself (and your vet) how to proceed, and we're here to support whatever you choose.

~~Diane


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