# Anderson or Parelli



## lucky seven (Oct 19, 2011)

I'm looking at these trainers for ideas on working with Seven, he needs to listen better to me and I think these trainers have good ideas. I have read some here who don't like Parelli at all. Could I get some input and what training levels you have found work with your horses? I need help with lunging, he doesn't listen at all. We need a much better connection. I used to watch both trainers on RFD but no longer get that channel. So will be buying books and dvd's, don't want to spend money on stuff that won't work for minis. thanks


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## heartkranch (Oct 19, 2011)

My advice is... Don't just follow one, follow all. Get used stuff off on ebay, or find stuff on your local craigslist, don't have to buy brand new stuff. Agree or disagree with trainers is more open minded and wanting to learn, then going to the same trainer, learn your own techniques and do what you start feeling is right. I don't like parelli for what he has done behind, and in front of people, and I hate HIS followers because they act like he is God, but that is another story.


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## rabbitsfizz (Oct 19, 2011)

After seeing the way PP and his wife Linda treat horses in their care I would not touch anything he does or says with a six foot, plastic coated, barge pole. If you wish to see some of his work, especially the debacle with the show jumper who did not like to be bridled, it is all out there on You Tube, including his wife abusing a very confused horse.

I would recommend you try to find someone local to you, who you can watch and decide if you like their approach for yourself, and steer well clear of _anyone_ who relies on selling you high priced, unnecessary , gimmicks.

Books and videos are all very well, but they are no substitute for hands on hard work and experience!

Find a local mentor, is my advice, and leave these "experts" well alone.


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## targetsmom (Oct 19, 2011)

Got to agree with Rabbitfizz on this one. Maybe it is because we are about the same age. But these trainers have to make a living somehow... not on me though.


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## midnight star stables (Oct 19, 2011)

I am another who would avoid Parelli.

Practice, patience, and consistency. Some times you need to be firm, it's just a case of knowing when. And firm is not synonymous to mean or abuse.


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 19, 2011)

I follow Clinton Anderson's methods and I say probably 90% of his groundwork I do with the minis. I had a horse who has never been trained for obstacle and first time this year working with him on Clinton's method and showing him in obstacle he placed 3rd in Halter Obstacle at Nationals this year. You don't have to buy his products but I defintely think it helps make it go faster, plus I love his halters for the minis and will not use nylon halters again. Plus he has always says you don't have to use his products to get the job done it just makes it faster and easier.

What rabbitsfizz says is true on Parelli and go and search for videos on youtube.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Oct 19, 2011)

I personally avoid anything PP, but have had great success when I've applied methods by CA as prescribed. As with anything, if not followed as directed, they won't produce the desired outcome, but when I didn't cut any corners and really followed what he said, I felt those horses and I both learned a lot. I can tell a difference in my herd when I work with one I've used the ground training methods on and which ones I haven't.

Currently, at least in my area, CA new shows (yes, new ones!) are shown on Fox Sports Midwest. I would assume they are also on the other Fox Sports channels.


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

I will say I am not a Parelli fan at all. I find him to talk and say one thing, then act out another way. Like mentioned above, his followers act like he is God. It is crazy.

With that being said, I do like Clinton Anderson a lot. I find his methods are pretty basic and apply to every sized horse. I have had great success using his methods. Now CA methods come from a long line of "natural" horseman. There are many who practice & teach the same principles. I would say buy a CA video (sometimes you can find used copies on Ebay) or two. You will not be disappointed.


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## ClickMini (Oct 19, 2011)

I would also like to recommend that you get the book, "Don't Shoot the Dog," by Karen Pryor to get a real strong understanding of how training works in the different modalities. Different styles are going to be more effective than others in general, and definitely your personality will dictate what is best for you. But understand what it is that you are doing in each framework.

As for horse training, I generally follow John Lyons and Alexandra Kurland (http://www.theclickercenter.com). Both are very gentle methods; most of Alex's stuff is based in John's work so it helps to have an understanding of the Lyons philosophy to get the full benefit of Alex. I find this to be most helpful while training driving horses, as John's work is strongly based on communication through the reins and doesn't rely on a lot of leg and weight cues. He is the only one out there that is truly "different" IMO. The rest of them are all flavors or shades of the same.


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## Flying minis (Oct 19, 2011)

The only good thing I can say about Parelli is he is a marketing genius, because he can get people to buy anything he puts his name on and worship him like some horse God. Wish I had one tenth of his marketing savvy. His training ability though? Overstated, overrated, and overpriced!


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## Sandy B (Oct 19, 2011)

No kidding, huh?



Flying minis said:


> The only good thing I can say about Parelli is he is a marketing genius, because he can get people to buy anything he puts his name on and worship him like some horse God. Wish I had one tenth of his marketing savvy. His training ability though? Overstated, overrated, and overpriced!


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## Marty (Oct 19, 2011)

You do not want me to get started on Parelli. Please don't because then I can't stop myself. Any of us "oldies" or seasoned horsemen I should say can see right through this. He preys on the newbies and somehow convinces them he is some kind of genius. I swear they do follow him like he is a God of some sort running a cult. He is laughing all the way to the bank on abused horses and the very naieve newbies and that makes me crazy. He's a moron, but a darn rich one. Who really needs their horse to sit their butt down on a stupid ball anyhow?


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## splash's mom (Oct 19, 2011)

I watch many different trainers and take away only what I like. Some I like more than others.The thing that bothers me most about any of them is they can show you all the things to do and break it down in laymens terms but they cant teach someone timing. Without the ability of correct timing no video, book etc. is going to help and in some of the cases I have seen has done the opposite of what was intended. Made the horse worse. I'm mainly referring to someone who has never owned a horse and now thinks they are a trainer because they got a video. Oh and the overpriced product they pimp to the masses. That drives me crazy too. JMHO


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## shorthorsemom (Oct 19, 2011)

I take a bit from different trainers and take most from seasoned experienced people I know more closely. People with excellent common sense and they are focused on the animal, not making a buck or selling a trick. I have friends I admire their techniques and their horses and manners and training. Give me an excellent breeder friend to talk to , or a forum member with years of experience over the TV personalities that are trying to make training the same from animal to animal and owner to owner.

On dogs... Cesar Milan (dog whisperer guy) makes me cringe like Parelli does for some of you. He sets dog obedience back on its heels 40 years. He is a nut case and the scary thing is that people watch his show and think they are learning something. ugh.




Seasoned dog trainers just shake their heads and just change the channel at his techniques.

Victoria Stillwell (its me or the dog lady) is the TV trainer you should be watching and her methods are very kind.


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## lucky seven (Oct 19, 2011)

I used to watch Pat Parelli, one show still sticks to my mind. He had a disabled young girl and a teenaged standardbred. I love standardbreds so was very interested, at one point he had the girl shooing the horse away from her with her arms wide, kept telling her to do it. Didn't see much point except to comfuse the horse. The poor boy didn't know what he had done wrong. His lower lip kept flopping up and down with confusion. I did get discouraged with trying to get Seven to lunge so made a "carrot" stick, put a carrot on the end of a lunge whip and he followed it at a walk in a circle until it fell off, he ate it and wouldn't move again. I have also concidered clicker training. Any thoughts on this method? CA horses look happier, PP spends too much time selling his products.


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## Lizzie (Oct 19, 2011)

Cannot stand PP. When he first appeared on rfdtv, I watched his shows. He put me completely off one day. Not for his training methods, which were questionable, but because he was down right rude to his wife on the show. I was shocked they even left it in. Seems as though nothing bothers them. Either of them! Some Youtube movies will tell the tale. They'd be laughable, if they were not so sad.

I like Clinton Anderson's methods. I've been to his clinics some time ago. Also John Lyons' methods. My daughter has her horses (big and small) trained mostly by the JL methods. Her Gypsy Horse mare was the youngest horse ever, to be ridden in The Rose Parade.

Lizzie


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## lucky seven (Oct 19, 2011)

Thanks Lizzie, I used to collect JL magazines, kept them for references for many years when I had a riding horse. I will look into his methods again. Just looking for some fun stuff to keep my boy interested.


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## PonyKnit (Oct 19, 2011)

JMS Miniatures said:


> 1319050661[/url]' post='1419397']What rabbitsfizz says is true on Parelli and go and search for videos on youtube.


What are the titles on videos? Did search but am getting alot of hits. ??


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## Sandy B (Oct 20, 2011)

Oh my gosh Marty! You crack me up! You are 100% right! Any real horse person that has real horse knowledge laughs at PP. His followers are newbies as you said and the backyard "my horse is human" owner. PP spends more time on the ground then he does in the saddle and his followers are stuck forever having their horse chase them and "play" with them, they hardly ever step in to the saddle and most of his theories do not make sense. At least the horse owner seems to get a lot of exercise under PP guidance.



Marty said:


> You do not want me to get started on Parelli. Please don't because then I can't stop myself. Any of us "oldies" or seasoned horsemen I should say can see right through this. He preys on the newbies and somehow convinces them he is some kind of genius. I swear they do follow him like he is a God of some sort running a cult. He is laughing all the way to the bank on abused horses and the very naieve newbies and that makes me crazy. He's a moron, but a darn rich one. Who really needs their horse to sit their butt down on a stupid ball anyhow?


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## Miss Gracie (Oct 20, 2011)

For those of you that are knocking the Parelli program how many of you have actually tried it? I too use to be against the program, mainly because I couldn't stand Pat's arrogant personality. I have owned horses for 31 years. Before the Parelli program I considered myself a fairly knowledgeable horseman. I have gotten so much out of the program and my Paso Fino is a much happier horse. My miniature mare has come a long way with the program. I have also tried Clinton Anderson program, very similar but I feel he takes a more aggressive approach. I agree that Pat Parelli is a marketing genius, I do feel that some of his products are over priced. Before training my miniature to harness I bought a well known miniature horse trainer's dvd, I used most of what I learned from Parelli and very little of the miniature horse trainer's method. This is Miss Gracie's 3rd year in harness and she is doing wonderful. I would recommend starting with the The Seven Games, it's part of the Success Series. Products can usually be bought cheaper on eBay.


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## Sue_C. (Oct 20, 2011)

> recommend starting with the The Seven Games, it's part of the Success Series. Products can usually be bought cheaper on eBay.


They are a heck of a lot cheaper when you simply refer to them as plain old common sense horsemanship.


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## wcr (Oct 20, 2011)

Not a fan of either one of them. Parelli is arrogant and obnoxious and flat out stole the ride and drive he is now doing from Carole Mercer and her Dancing Morgans. I worked as her groom for an expo and Clinton Anderson did clinics and I was disgusted at his aggressive(and sometimes abusive)treatment of the horses he used. It is amazing what you see behind the scenes.

I have always been a John Lyons fan but so much deals with riding. I learned a lot from his old ground work video. There is an art to it to get the most out of lunging and free round pen work and you need to now how to position yourself in relation to the horse. It is the old Join up of Monty whats-his-name that was so popular way back when.

The library has videos so go get them there but find someone knowledgeable and spend your money on hands on stuff.


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## midnight star stables (Oct 20, 2011)

Miss Gracie said:


> For those of you that are knocking the Parelli program how many of you have actually tried it? I too use to be against the program, mainly because I couldn't stand Pat's arrogant personality. I have owned horses for 31 years. Before the Parelli program I considered myself a fairly knowledgeable horseman. I have gotten so much out of the program and my Paso Fino is a much happier horse. My miniature mare has come a long way with the program. I have also tried Clinton Anderson program, very similar but I feel he takes a more aggressive approach. I agree that Pat Parelli is a marketing genius, I do feel that some of his products are over priced. Before training my miniature to harness I bought a well known miniature horse trainer's dvd, I used most of what I learned from Parelli and very little of the miniature horse trainer's method. This is Miss Gracie's 3rd year in harness and she is doing wonderful. I would recommend starting with the The Seven Games, it's part of the Success Series. Products can usually be bought cheaper on eBay.


I just wanted to comment on this. I have not tried the Parelli Program, but have not felt the need to. My horses listen and respect me as it is now. But the thing about the PP that gets to me is that it takes backwards steps. If I want my horse to go over a tarp, I want the horse to go over the tarp. There are many ways to have the horse happily go over the tarp, in MUCH less time. Same with getting on a trailer. I use my trailer nearly every weekend in the summer - I don't have an hour to get the horse on the trailer each time...




There is truth in what they say, but common sense does the same thing.



lucky seven said:


> I used to watch Pat Parelli, one show still sticks to my mind. He had a disabled young girl and a teenaged standardbred. I love standardbreds so was very interested, at one point he had the girl shooing the horse away from her with her arms wide, kept telling her to do it. Didn't see much point except to comfuse the horse. The poor boy didn't know what he had done wrong. His lower lip kept flopping up and down with confusion. *I did get discouraged with trying to get Seven to lunge so made a "carrot" stick, put a carrot on the end of a lunge whip and he followed it at a walk in a circle until it fell off, he ate it and wouldn't move again. * I have also concidered clicker training. Any thoughts on this method? CA horses look happier, PP spends too much time selling his products.


Lucky seven, I do not mean any disrespect by this but instead of finding a method of training, possibly seeking out a trainer in your area might be able to help teach you basic horse training? Lunging can be challenging when starting out, but it just takes time, practice and knowledge. I am reading it correct when you said you tried to lunge Seven by holding a carrot on a whip in front of him? That really is not "correct horsemanship", no matter what training method you follow. You need to USE the whip to move the horse away from you, teach them that they need to respect your cues - physical and verbal. Also, who old is Seven? Where are you trying to lunge him (in a round pen, in a sand ring, in an arena, in his field, on the lawn)? Does Seven have any other training. It is my personal opinion that you just need some more education about horsemanship and training. Give us a little more information about what you are wanting to do, and we might be able to help. Good luck.


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## Reble (Oct 20, 2011)

I agree John Lyons Technic's

You want to train a horse fully, you do not want to break their spirit.


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## wingnut (Oct 20, 2011)

I personally prefer Clinton Anderson. His methodology works for me and how my mind works. That's the key....*I* have to be comfortable with the methods being used if I'm going to be able to use them effectively.


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## heartkranch (Oct 20, 2011)

Miss Gracie said:


> For those of you that are knocking the Parelli program how many of you have actually tried it? I too use to be against the program, mainly because I couldn't stand Pat's arrogant personality. I have owned horses for 31 years. Before the Parelli program I considered myself a fairly knowledgeable horseman. I have gotten so much out of the program and my Paso Fino is a much happier horse. My miniature mare has come a long way with the program. I have also tried Clinton Anderson program, very similar but I feel he takes a more aggressive approach. I agree that Pat Parelli is a marketing genius, I do feel that some of his products are over priced. Before training my miniature to harness I bought a well known miniature horse trainer's dvd, I used most of what I learned from Parelli and very little of the miniature horse trainer's method. This is Miss Gracie's 3rd year in harness and she is doing wonderful. I would recommend starting with the The Seven Games, it's part of the Success Series. Products can usually be bought cheaper on eBay.


What of his did you try? That only HE came up with? The reason he is so popular is because it dumbs it down for newbies. Honestly, and he makes people think they can do anything with there horse, as long as you have a carrot stick and his special halter.

I'm sorry but his "games" are full of crap. Every horse that has been parelli trained that I have seen, and FIXED because of people doing it the parelli way, is stupid. All of the horses have been pushy and bad manners. You know why? Because they are confused about who is the leader. The human or the horse. Of course we are but parelli "games" makes it so the horse thinks it's the boss. There are some people that are smart enough to know( like you) what to do with a pushy horse, but the newbies don't.


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## weerunner (Oct 20, 2011)

I've never tried Parelli. I LOVE John Lyons, I use it on all my horses. I always leave my lessons on a positive, calmer note than when we began. That is a sign of a good method in my books.


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## Kim~Crayonboxminiatures (Oct 20, 2011)

I have to echo someone else earlier on the topic, I read/watch as many trainers as I can, and pick what works for me. I don't fall into only one method. Not a Parelli fan, but I have used pieces from what I have read/seen. My favorite books to read are Mark Rashid, and I read a lot of John Lyons also in the past. I also appreciate clicker training. I tend to pick out what works for me, as we each have our own "style" and understanding and I also firmly believe that not every method works on every horse you have to be open to trying a new approach when what you are trying to communicate isn't working.

I would recommend working with a local trainer if you can find one. If you are not horse savvy any training method can be dangerous if you don't know how to read horse behaviour and react correctly.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Oct 20, 2011)

Spanky is my first mini, but I've trained many full sized horses before and this is what I have to say on tue matter:

Watch and read everything you can from every trainer you can. Learn at least one thing each time, even of it's not to follow that method from that trainer. Learn at least a couple different methods as horses are like children and two horses may need different technics to learn the same information. Learn to be adaptable and creative and to think on your feet, if you can't find anything that works, look at how your horse learns and come up with your own method. Good luck. Training your own horse can be the most rewarding thing and create an incredible bond


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## valshingle (Oct 20, 2011)

wcr said:


> It is the old Join up of Monty whats-his-name that was so popular way back when.


Ah, this brings back memories. Back when we lived in CO we adopted a 2 yr old mustang colt. We quickly gelded him and I spent hours trying to get him to 'join-up'. But Reno (the mustang) hadn't read John's books and simply didn't want to connect to any human. Forget treats, he didn't want anything to do with us. We had him for several years and he spent much time trying to get my ex-husband off his back. There was lots of bolting and bucking. He could run flat out with his head tucked to his chest while I tried to stop him with a curb bit (we did start with a snaffle). Fortunately he would just run to the barn and stop there. He wasn't panicked, he wasn't hurt; he simply did not want to be a riding horse. We eventually gave him to a young cowboy who had to the energy and patience to work with him.

As for Parelli - I used to attend the Denver stock show and marveled at the number of people who would attend PP's seminars and then walk around with those orange sticks. He is a marketing genius.


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 20, 2011)

I went to the no-charge, 'introductory' evening session of Pat Parelli WAY back when he was just getting started...(let's see...my neighbor, who'd moved here in '86 w/ a 2 YO Tenn. Walker STALLION, then bred the common, ill-mannered thing and had it's equally common 2 YO(thankfully, THIS one he gelded!)son, was all jacked about going to learn all about 'training' this 2 YO, so it must have been about '90...). Parelli had yet to instigate all his 'games' and various other draws, nor the extreme marketing tactics/techniques, but even then, I was wholly UNimpressed, so I 'passed' on the 'opportunity'



to attend the next two days' of exposure to Mr. Parelli. Newbie-horse-owner neighbor ate it up, though...and,already a man with a strong shot of arrogant ego, has been 'quite the expert'-at least in his own estimation--ever since!

Now, there is quite a crop of these kinds of people. My only exposure to any except Parelli and Monty Roberts(who I came to feel about pretty much as I feel about Parelli) is watching each a FEW times on RFD-TV and more recently, HRTV. I kind of like what little I've seen of Chris Cox, and Craig Cameron(both of whom seem to have some solid, GENUINE cowboy(in the best sense of the word, which many don't seem to understand nowadays)knowledge...but I wouldn't go out and 'buy' products with THEIR names on them, either!

I was set up onto a work mule at age 2; rode a cousin's pony(bareback)virtually every waking moment while visiting my aunt and uncle near Lubbock summers from age 6 through 9, nagged my parents into my first OWN horse(a small mare from the Arapahoe)when I was 9, and since then,have owned, ridden, trained, shown, horses of a fair number of different breeds and disciplines, in the intervening 61 years. I learned mostly from the people I was around(some who knew what they were doing, some not so much-you learn the difference, when you care deeply to LEARN, and KNOW!); only took 'formal' lessons from a totally WESTERN RIDING-oriented gentleman who TRAINED RIDERS to train their horses, and recommended only TWO reading sources...Henry Wynnmalen of the UK, and Col. Alois Podhasky, of the Spanish Riding School...both Dressage masters!My instructor was NEVER a 'horse trainer' himself, but a VERY smart, astute card-holding judge, whose daughter had become a world-class Western exhibitor(mostly AQHA, back then.)I rode cutting horses(my college barrel/pole horse started as a cutting horse) with one of the best of the time, June Mitchell(a man, despite the first name!), and just watched and listened closely to EVERYONE who was clearly knowledgeable. These kinds of people KNEW THEIR STUFF before Parelli and his ilk could toddle!

I am QUITE comfortable with my now-considerable abilities and store of knowledge--but am STILL learning...no one will EVER 'know it all' about horses and horsemanship, and I consider continued learning a lifetime project! I do believe there is NO substitute for experience, experience, experience...Wet saddleblankets, we oldtimers would say.

Agree 100% w/ what Marty expressed, BTW.)

Margo


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## Stef (Oct 20, 2011)

I have never been a fan of Anderson or Parelli.

I LOVE Monty Roberts! I have had so many wonderful results with his methods.


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## Sandy B (Oct 20, 2011)

As one poster said, they have had to deal with PP protégée trained horses and they are usually pushy and confused. Oh yes, oh yes, oh yes!! I had not dealt with a PP follower horse until the last year when I have gotten several PP followers and their horses to work with. I pull my hair out as all they want to do is play with their horses and not ride. These PP followers are very uncomfortable in the saddle and have no leadership skills once their. I have yet to watch them "play" with their horse and see that horse look happy. Every one has their ears pinned back as they run next to them and "chase" them. Which one looks like the herd leader??? A few weeks ago, one lady almost got kicked in the head when she sent her horse out in the round pen by a nasty minded sour PP trained horse. Her reaction? "Oh my" and carried on.

As far as CA, yes he can be a bit aggressive, but so can a leader of a herd of horses (boss mare). If a person learns how horses communicate to one another and apply those principles, you are steps ahead. I say enough with the PP "games" and learn to read and communicate to your horse by learning their natural communication ways. Horses communicate with their ears, eyes, nose, tail, hooves, and body. For instance, if a horse can feel just one fly, then they for sure can feel your touch and que's. Besides CA, I really like Craig Camerson and a man named Ezra Marrow. I am lucky that Ezra lives 30 minutes away. I have had him come to my ranch several times too work with 4-H kids and their unruly horses. You can google Ezra and get to his web page.


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## TyeeRanch (Oct 20, 2011)

I have studied each of the people being mentioned here. I have seen positives and negatives to each. Just as each horse is different and different things work with different horses....different things work with different people. BUT....if you truly embrace the "natural horsemanship" methods, WE have to adjust to the horse. Every horse, every day. Just like people, they are not all built from the same mold. So why stick to one clinician? I enjoy each of them. But never have I used what I have learned from just one.


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## lucky seven (Oct 20, 2011)

Thanks for all the advice, some may remember I almost gave up on seven because we just didn't get along. Things are better with his food agression, he moves over and gives me space while he is eating so I can clean, top water ect. I have a small round pen and am trying to get some weight off him through exercise. He stands right in front of me and won't move off even when I tell him to or push on him with the handle of a whip. He walks better now with me, that was also a problem. He is quite pushy. He is a 4 yo gelding. He should be named Bruce Springsteen because he thinks he is the "boss" His attitude needs changing and I am trying to think of things to do with him that will keep him interested. I have cones and cross rails and just after a few trips around and over he starts nipping my hand. I know not all mini-human unions aren't meant to be but I do like this guy and want to make things work out. There is one trainer close by but having trouble connecting with her. I want to observe her methods before letting near my guy.


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## valshingle (Oct 20, 2011)

Sorry, but it sounds like he needs to learn manners. I haven't read all your posts, so if I am missing something I apologize. Nipping at people is UNACCEPTABLE. Period. I would use a chain over his nose and pop him when he tries to nip. You may need to do this a few times before he 'gets it'. If he keeps nipping then you aren't correcting him strongly enough. He needs to think that the wrath of God is going to get him. Quick, firm corrections are kinder than repeated nagging.

When you have him in the round pen (forget the lunge line for now), ask him to move off by swishing the lunge whip by his hind feet or hindquarters (if you can be accurate). If a swish doesn't work, than move up to mild contact with the whip. If that doesn't work, then a firmer swish (or even pop) is needed. It doesn't matter which direction that he moves right now - only that he moves away from you when you ask. Once he starts going in a direction, keep him going. Don't let him stop until YOU want him to. BTW, you should be clucking to him immediately before using the whip, so eventually the cluck will replace the whip as a cue. Once you can get him to go around in each direction, then you can try it with a lunge line. If you have a round pen, you really don't need to use a lunge line unless you want him to get used to it for other locations (shows, etc).

There was an article on lunging in a recent Miniature Horse World magazine. But I don't remember which one. Perhaps the Performance Issue?


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## DrivinTime (Oct 20, 2011)

I like the John Lyons books; his methods make sense to me. "Bringing Up Baby" is a good starting place - it goes step-by-step through basic ground training, with photos.


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## JennyB (Oct 20, 2011)

I also am NOT a PP fan at all...can't stomach his wife 



 . I think he has done a lot of good and some bad...and I think you could say that about every trainer, vet, horseshoer and doctor! 



 ...don't care at all for Monty Roberts, that man has a lot of dirty secrets under his sleeves I suspect!

 

If I were to choose a excellent trainer to take your horse to, hands down I would pick Buck Brannaman. He is not the best with people, but he sure knows his horses and learned from the Ray Hunt and Tom & Bill Dorrence and the were absolutly the BEST 





 

I also like Clinton Anderson too..he is Very good with people and I like his methods. I also like Craig Cameron a lot too...has a great Smile and is good with horses 





 

There is my two cents! Good luck with getting your horse straightned out 





 

Blessings,

Jenny


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## midnight star stables (Oct 20, 2011)

valshingle said:


> Sorry, but it sounds like he needs to learn manners. I haven't read all your posts, so if I am missing something I apologize. Nipping at people is UNACCEPTABLE. Period. I would use a chain over his nose and pop him when he tries to nip. You may need to do this a few times before he 'gets it'. If he keeps nipping then you aren't correcting him strongly enough. He needs to think that the wrath of God is going to get him. Quick, firm corrections are kinder than repeated nagging.
> 
> When you have him in the round pen (forget the lunge line for now), ask him to move off by swishing the lunge whip by his hind feet or hindquarters (if you can be accurate). If a swish doesn't work, than move up to mild contact with the whip. If that doesn't work, then a firmer swish (or even pop) is needed. It doesn't matter which direction that he moves right now - only that he moves away from you when you ask. Once he starts going in a direction, keep him going. Don't let him stop until YOU want him to. BTW, you should be clucking to him immediately before using the whip, so eventually the cluck will replace the whip as a cue. Once you can get him to go around in each direction, then you can try it with a lunge line. If you have a round pen, you really don't need to use a lunge line unless you want him to get used to it for other locations (shows, etc).
> 
> There was an article on lunging in a recent Miniature Horse World magazine. But I don't remember which one. Perhaps the Performance Issue?



I agree. Ask, tell, enforce.

I expect ALL my horses to behave... From my foals up to my seniors. Manners is important. Lucky Seven, if I were you, I'd do exactly as Valshingle said. Seven NEEDS to learn that you are boss. If it means that you need to be mean once or twice, so be it ~ They learn very quick that it's nicer to listen to you.



With most of my horses, just a raised voice is usually enough to set them in line. Again it just takes time and practice ~ you can do it!


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## Miss Gracie (Oct 20, 2011)

heartkranch said:


> What of his did you try? That only HE came up with? The reason he is so popular is because it dumbs it down for newbies. Honestly, and he makes people think they can do anything with there horse, as long as you have a carrot stick and his special halter.
> 
> I'm sorry but his "games" are full of crap. Every horse that has been parelli trained that I have seen, and FIXED because of people doing it the parelli way, is stupid. All of the horses have been pushy and bad manners. You know why? Because they are confused about who is the leader. The human or the horse. Of course we are but parelli "games" makes it so the horse thinks it's the boss. There are some people that are smart enough to know( like you) what to do with a pushy horse, but the newbies don't.





I have heard Pat Parelli many times state that he didn't invent the techniques that he uses in his program. He learn much of what he known's from others such as Ray Hunt and Tom Dorrence.

I have applied all of the 7 games on the ground and in the saddle. My horses are respectful most of the time, when they're not I reinforce what I have learned. Horse will continually test your leadership skills, it's their nature. I have studied level 1, 2, 3, the Liberty Horse Behavior course, and the Success Series.

Just because someone tells you they use the Parelli program doesn't mean they have applied the techniques properly. If someone has a horse that has been in the program and it is still pushy and is confused about who the leader is then they are doing the program wrong. I have friends that don't get the results that I do simply because they are doing it wrong, unfortunately they blame the horse and/or the program.


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## Miss Gracie (Oct 20, 2011)

Lucky Seven,

Parelli use to offer an Introduction to Natural Horsemanship DVD for free, not sure they still offer this, if they don't I have one I'd be happy to send you for free.

Wishing you success with Seven.


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## TyeeRanch (Oct 21, 2011)

JennyB said:


> I also am NOT a PP fan at all...can't stomach his wife
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I have to agree with you about Buck. I am very impressed with him as well. He and PP had the same mentors, but have done different things with it. PP is a marketing genuis. And actually I enjoy his wife more than I do him. LOL to each their own. Now Clinton, he is very good and his methods have helped me a lot more with my "biggie" than PP did. Plus, Clinton is just plain fun to listen to and look at :-D


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## lucky seven (Oct 21, 2011)

When I really get stern with seven and get after him when he nips, well...........he holds a grudge. I mean I can't get near him! I end up leaving him alone for a few days to a week until he gets over it. I am beginning to think I need to start from scratch with him, like he doesn't know anything at all. Will keep you all updated. It doesn't help that I am laid up right now so Im taking the time to come up with a game plan. I intend to keep a journal and keep track of any progress and go over it in the spring. He is my first mini and the mini 'tude is way different from the big ones I am used to. But he sure is cute!


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## valshingle (Oct 21, 2011)

When he holds his grudge, can you put him in a stall where you can more easily catch him? Leave a halter on him with a short rope (about 12-18") attached. Make sure the halter is well fitting so he can't get a foot caught in it.

I still wish there as a good trainer nearby. It doesn't need to be a miniature trainer, a good big horse trainer would do.

I would probably put him in a stall and remove him from his other horse buddies so he has no choice but to turn to you (or another person you trust) for company.

By leaving him alone when he holds his grudge, you are actually giving him what he wants - which is to be left alone. He needs to learn that he must have manners and that he will have to submit to being handled daily. In exchange he will receive food, water, and eventually he'll enjoy the love you give him.

So when he nips, pop him with the chain and then continue petting, grooming, etc. So he learns that nipping will be corrected and he still needs to put up with being handled.


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## midnight star stables (Oct 21, 2011)

valshingle said:


> When he holds his grudge, can you put him in a stall where you can more easily catch him? Leave a halter on him with a short rope (about 12-18") attached. Make sure the halter is well fitting so he can't get a foot caught in it.
> 
> I still wish there as a good trainer nearby. It doesn't need to be a miniature trainer, a good big horse trainer would do.
> 
> ...


I agree 100%. He NEEDs to respect you.


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## Sandy B (Oct 21, 2011)

Clinton has a great DVD on dealing with behavioral issues such a biting(nipping) and a lot more.


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## lucky seven (Oct 21, 2011)

I will pick up as many ca tapes as I can to watch over the winter. Weather gets so bad can't do much anyway. A new barn opened up and I have contacted them to see what they offer in the way of horsemanship training.


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## Austin2010 (Oct 25, 2011)

I hadn't really follwed any one person and still don't. BUT i was lucky enought o be able to go to the WEG in KY last year and stumbled upon CA doing a demo with his mini Phoenix. Gotta say i was surprised to see one of these "big guys doing something - anything with a mini. i ended up findign one of his satff memebers who said that Phoenix was bought as a traveling partner for his tour horse Diez and as with all of CA's horses they put him thorugh the groundwork of Clinton's method. This guy did great and Clinton was good with him - i thinkt he audience was pretty surprised in general. After the demo i followed CLintona dn crew back to his tent booth area and waitied to ask him personally about his mini. Just as his staff said, CLinton siad that all of his horses are put through his method and that Phoenix is no different - he knows his Fundamentals and Intermediate groundwork. he was a really nice guy and spent as much time as he needed to answer all the questions everyone had for him. can't say that about PP - he didn't seem to have time for his fans? Tommie Turvey was pretty great to talk to as well.

Anyway - since keeping tabs on CA i discovered he has all of his TV shows on the internet for FREE - no membership no tricks. that scored him points in my book



here it is

www.downunderhorsemanship.tv


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## lucky seven (Oct 25, 2011)

What In mean by holding a grudge, he won't let me in. He tosses his head and will let me feed him but expects me to keep my distance. He acts this way for awhile then hr goes back to normal. Miss Gracie thanks for the offer. If you want email me privately. I checked ebay and couldn't find the ones that I want. I received the CA catalog in the mail but haven't looked it over yet. Thanks all


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## JMS Miniatures (Oct 25, 2011)

lucky seven said:


> What In mean by holding a grudge, he won't let me in. He tosses his head and will let me feed him but expects me to keep my distance. He acts this way for awhile then hr goes back to normal. Miss Gracie thanks for the offer. If you want email me privately. I checked ebay and couldn't find the ones that I want. I received the CA catalog in the mail but haven't looked it over yet. Thanks all


He is being so disrespectful to you its not even funny. I don't care that this is a mini, imagine a big horse doing this, it could be downright dangerous. Mini's are horses period, you can't treat them no different. I highly recommend looking into Clinton's fundamentals package. It really changes the horse and makes him more respectful. If I'm having issues with anything I always try to remeber to go back to the fundamentals, thats how valuable this package is. Clinton has said if everyone teaches their horse the fundamentals he would be out of the job.


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## Miss Gracie (Oct 26, 2011)

lucky seven said:


> What In mean by holding a grudge, he won't let me in. He tosses his head and will let me feed him but expects me to keep my distance. He acts this way for awhile then hr goes back to normal. Miss Gracie thanks for the offer. If you want email me privately. I checked ebay and couldn't find the ones that I want. I received the CA catalog in the mail but haven't looked it over yet. Thanks all



I couldn't get the e-mail to work so I IM'd you. Let me know if you didn't get it.


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## rubyviewminis (Oct 30, 2011)

I also highly recommend the Fundamentals Kit Clinotn made. It may seem very expensive when you first look, members can get it for $399 or on Ebay, but Ebay prices are not much less. It contains I think 14 HD DVD's a book on how he looks at horse behavior and training, arena mates which are informative little books to stick in your pocket or hang somewhere handy, and broken down steps of each exercise, horse problems, handler problems, etc. He makes it so clear and so easy to not only teach your horse, but to understand the why of what your teaching. I have used his method of training for 12 years and still learned something new in his Fundamental Kit. Lots of people resell them when they are finished and ready to move on to the Intermediate exercises. It's worth its weight in gold as they say in this area (gold mines in Nevada). You can't buy the value of that kit anywhere else.


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## wingnut (Oct 30, 2011)

And if you want to "try before you buy", you can become a club member and see many of the same information for free on the club website. Also, there is a horse related DVD rental company that works like Netflix where you can "rent" the DVDs. It is a bit of a waiting list to get to the Fundamentals but there are other CA DVDs available while you wait. In both cases, there is no long term commitment required.


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## Poodlepill (Nov 5, 2011)

I probably have the first videos Clinton Anderson put out from 10-ish years ago. I just get his training and the words he uses. I always watch other trainers too, some I don't even understand what they are doing or saying......makes me mad <sigh> but I always go back to Clinton. I watch is free programs on RFDTV and any others I can UNDERSTAND...........

I lunge, bend and flex my minis, I also use clicker training.


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## lucky seven (Nov 5, 2011)

I like CA's website. His is very imformative. I am trying to use a little parelli and ca mixed together. I wish the videos weren't so expensive. Also you have to buy the halters, sticks and leads. Wish they would simplify the equipment to keep costs down.


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## JMS Miniatures (Nov 5, 2011)

You don't have to buy the equipment, it just makes thing go faster and easier, but you can still get the job done with a oridinary halter and lead and you can use like a lounge whip or driving whip. However I won't use anything else cause I like the products personally. Check on ebay for great deals.


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## spindleberry (Nov 7, 2011)

I have not read all the replies due to being on my phone. I am a clinton anderson follower! I saw him at one of the tour stops. He was easy to understand what he ment when he was working with the horses...and he actually made progress with them to. I have used his techniques for my witchy bad mannered poa mare and they worked so well with her. I am also using his training for my 2yr old stud colt and he's imo the best mannered stud cold I've ever been around. I really like CA.

I do not like Parelli.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 8, 2011)

To be perfectly honest here I don't think it is the horse that needs training - it's you. A horse is a horse whether it is 2 feet tall or 10 feet tall. They all behave with the same basic instincts, the difference between them is intelligence level and personal character. The smarter the horse is the smarter you have to be and I think your little guy is quite intelligent and has you figured out. Horses use very subtle tests to establish dominance while avoiding injury to themselves. A knowledgeable trainer or layperson with good equine instincts doesn't permit the horse to become dominant. Unfortunately you missed the signs and have allowed your little horse to quite firmly establish that he is dominant over you. This will quite quickly escalate to other humans and needs to be nipped in the bud NOW. I can see this horse becoming downright dangerous very shortly if you don't get him in hand. You are in NY and can't find a trainer to help you out? There are quite a few of them in the state - try googling for them and then ask for references. You don't need any particular discipline or belief, what you need is to learn basic horsemanship and a bit of time put on your horse to retrain him so that you can go home and put things right with your little guy. I am just across the border in Ontario and have had a couple horses here from New York. I would be happy to help you out if you really can't find a trainer closer.


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## Reble (Nov 8, 2011)

I am not sure if you have another horse that lunges.?

If so can put both in the round pen and start lunging the one that knows how too with using your whip the other will catch on much faster than.

If not try just a short lead line start with small circles and praise praise praise than start going wider until he catches on, he might not know what you are wanting and so just stops.

Say walk and never hit the horse with the whip just right behind the back heels, have to be able to make the sound with the whip, it takes time and patients.

Good Luck.


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## lucky seven (Nov 8, 2011)

Rebie, my other horse is an old ott standardbred, he was never formally trained to lunge.

MiloMinis, you are right on, what I have is a mini who knows how to lunge, I have lunged him in the past. Earlier this summer I was lunging at walk and trot transiitons, he flew into a gallop, yanked the line out of my hand and ran from one pen to another and into his stall. I had a tussle getting the line off him and he hasn't cooperated since that time. It was suggested that I find tapes that describe how to deal with horses with behavior problems. That was what I was asking, who was better with this type of behavior problem, CA or Parelli. He is really smart and keeps me off balance most of the time. I have also noticed now when I lead him, instead of walking on my right, he lags behind and shifts over to my left. When I worked with him yesterday, just asking him to walk with me politly, he started jigging and rearing up at me, I just kept going and after trying alot of the tricks he has used in the past to win the battle, he decided it was less work to behave. So I finished really feeling that I succeeded with him this time. My job is to keep that up, he needs to learn that he is going to work alot harder if he misbehaves. I have succeded with one of his major behavior problems that he came with, food aggression. I can now work around him, clean his stall and rub him without him mule kicking me.


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## shalakominiatureshowhorses (Sep 23, 2012)

Clinton Anderson is my role model




I love watching him on his show on RFD TV and i so badly want to go watch his walkabout tours! I have never seen Parelli, going to go watch him now on Youtube......


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## lucky seven (Sep 23, 2012)

I would really like to watch Clinton Anderson also. It was strange re-reading these posts from last year. I thought I had solved the food aggression problems but they are back. I had so much trouble grooming him today that my hubby said it's finally time to find him a new home. He suggested that I find a safe, sane older riding horse but I think I'm going to stay mini but take my time and find a suitable match. I didn't do my homework when I picked out seven, had never been around a mini before and thought he was darn cute.


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## lilnickers (Sep 24, 2012)

I suggest you start from scratch. If you have a round pen or small paddock, free lunge him, keeping him away from you. Keep him moving. Have a lunge whip or buggy whip maybe with a plastic bag tied on the end. Only raise it when he tries to stop or crowd you. This is teaching him to listen to you. It may take 15-20 min.or more, but eventually he will drop his head and "lick his lips". This means you have his attention....and he is understanding that you are speaking horse language. When he displays this, stop, drop the whip/line and turn slightly away. If he understands...he will stop and come to you. Then you pet his forehead and take a step...he should follow you. I have done this with several horses and it is simply AMAZING. It is actually horse language



From this point you will receive more respect as your horse will see you as his leader and protector.

If he does not come to you.....send him back out free lunging and wait again for the signs. Good luck with Seven.

By the way, this method is called "Join-up" from Monty Roberts. He has a few books and DVDs. I have read his books, watched his tape and he appears on the Horse Racing Channel sometimes doing clinics. You would enjoy Monty and his methods, which are probably similar to CA.


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## Knottymare (Sep 24, 2012)

lilnickers said:


> I suggest you start from scratch. If you have a round pen or small paddock, free lunge him, keeping him away from you. Keep him moving. Have a lunge whip or buggy whip maybe with a plastic bag tied on the end. Only raise it when he tries to stop or crowd you. This is teaching him to listen to you. It may take 15-20 min.or more, but eventually he will drop his head and "lick his lips". This means you have his attention....and he is understanding that you are speaking horse language. When he displays this, stop, drop the whip/line and turn slightly away. If he understands...he will stop and come to you. Then you pet his forehead and take a step...he should follow you. I have done this with several horses and it is simply AMAZING. It is actually horse language
> 
> 
> 
> ...


We have a lot of good old hands like Monty Roberts and Tom Dorrance to thank for what we now refer to as "natural" horsemanship. It's mostly common sense unless you don't speak horse. HAHAHAHA. That's right. we has humans don't naturally speak horse. some of us come by it more naturally than others. Some of those happen to be gifted with the talent to teach as well.

There are a few things that I think PP has done a good job with. Laugh if you want but the concept of horsenalities (putting horse personalities into quadrants based on reactivity and curiosity, energy levels and the way they think) was brilliant. For a person learning to speak the language of horses, understanding not only your horses natural way of thinking and being but also the appropriate way to respond to THAT particular horse can mean the difference between success and failure.

It also helps to know that some horses do not click with some people and vice versa. A true trainer knows how to adapt and adjust to each horse but the average backyard horse owner/breeder who also works a full time job often times goes about their activities with their horses with nothing more than their busy schedule in mind.

It does each of us good to slow down, remember that each of our horses is unique and every interaction with them IS a training opportunity. What you do with it is up to you. Make it positive!


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## lucky seven (Sep 24, 2012)

I really like seven, but agree that maybe we are not a match made in heaven. He probably would shine with someone else. That's why I haven't gone the "trainer" route. He would be great for someone else, then back to the same old for me. Total lack of respect. You either have it or don't. With another mini I know I wouldn't make the same mistakes as I see Seven as a learning experience. But with winter coming on, he will be staying with me. I don't want to have to worry if he has proper shelter and feed and is cold or hungry. He is so smart that I read in some other posts that clicker training is good to keep the mind active. That is something I will work with him over the winter and see what happens. That's why I call myself "Lucky Seven" because I feel lucky to have him. I love Monte Roberts, his join up really works. Since the others receive more media space, its easy to forget that he was a leader in the NH methods.


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## chandab (Sep 24, 2012)

I know you've been at this awhile, but I still say, don't give up hope.

It took my stallion 18 months to stop thinking I was a pony-eating monster, while he's still always on, he respects me.


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## wingnut (Sep 24, 2012)

> A true trainer knows how to adapt and adjust to each horse but the average backyard horse owner/breeder who also works a full time job often times goes about their activities with their horses with nothing more than their busy schedule in mind.


This is definitely something I struggle with as a complete beginner when it comes to training a horse. I also have to work really hard to be patient. My husband, on the other hand, is amazingly patient and gets faster/better results. And he "doesn't like" horses. Hah!

As a Clinton Anderson fan, I really think its important to recognize he KNOWS he didn't come up with his techniques on his own. He completely admits that he is using the methods that he was taught by his mentors in Australia and still others when he came to the States. He just found a way to teach it well to others, especially those of us who aren't well versed in the horse area but want to get there. He is a masterful marketer and salesman. It helps that he's cute to some of us, has a wicked sense of humor and speaks a language that most "get" without having to try too hard. I will also say that I haven't studied any of the other popular trainers out there to any great extent because I truly "get" what CA is teaching and think it works for me and my horses. In the end, that's what you have to strive for.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

lucky seven, I know what you are going through. My full sized mare was 9 months when my parents bought her for me (I had just turned 8). She is by one of the most aggressive studs in the area, and she got her daddies temperament  Talk about being thrown into the world of horse training head first! When I was about 16, at this point sick of trying EVERYTHING anyone could think of (like trying to join up for literally 2 hours with no success), I "threw" her, had my knee on her neck so she couldn't get up and just rubbed her everywhere. I kept her down for about 15 minutes or so, let her up and was able to join up in about 15 minutes. She has been relatively easy to train since, though she has her moments. She is now 12 and ridable. I wouldn't throw a beginner on her but she is a great horse now. I'm glad I didn't give in when I wanted too.

Some just need a come to Jesus moment, and it might take more for some horses to get that message.


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## Knottymare (Sep 24, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> lucky seven, I know what you are going through. My full sized mare was 9 months when my parents bought her for me (I had just turned 8). She is by one of the most aggressive studs in the area, and she got her daddies temperament  Talk about being thrown into the world of horse training head first! When I was about 16, at this point sick of trying EVERYTHING anyone could think of (like trying to join up for literally 2 hours with no success), I "threw" her, had my knee on her neck so she couldn't get up and just rubber her everywhere. I kept her down for about 15 minutes or so, let her up and was able to join up in about 15 minutes. She has been relatively easy to train since, though she has her moments. She is now 12 and ridable. I wouldn't throw a beginner on her but she is a great horse now. I'm glad I didn't give in when I wanted too.
> 
> Some just need a come to Jesus moment, and it might take more for some horses to get that message.


Michelle, it's hard for me to imagine you throwing a full sized horse on the ground but I believe you, after all, I did see you drive a Ford Taurus with a large bale of hay, 2 large dogs and a small stallion all happily inside.

I've seen this work. I think we talked about it on the beach trip. I used to work for a little gal who used to toss every foal on the place as a matter of course. Then, as adults, they never forgot she could throw them on the ground but meanwhile, she was a kind and benevolent leader and her horses were all very respectful and affectionate.

In the "old days", throwing the horse on the ground and doing exactly what you did was a "horse whisperers" first course of action. They didn't violently throw them, but had a way with ropes and such to gently drop them on the ground and then sit on them, much to the wows of the cowboys who used to ride the fight out of them. First time I saw it I was horrified but for some horses, it is the right course. I had a filly (full sized) like that and my vet, finally exasperated with her antics, tossed her. Took three of us sitting on her but after that, we never had a problem with shots or worming where before, EVERYTHING was a nightmare... and she was thoroughly handled and shaped at birth and was regularly handled and prepared for everything she would encounter. Just goes to show, there are many different horses. In fact, to complicate things, for each horse, you really have 2 horses. The rights side horse and the left side horse and everything has to be taught to both. And that horse can be very different from hour to day to week... but understanding their base personality and their trends in how they react is very helpful to know and really can only come from keen observation and patience.

I have found that personally, I do not do particularly well the horse that moves it's feet before it's brain. Reactive horses usually get me spun up which is the opposite of what needs to happen, usually. I prefer a horse that moves it's brain first. Those horses can be really frustrating for other people that need to see movement to think anything is happening...

All so interesting!


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

Lol! Yup I had her haltered and our training saddle on her, tied her leg up, dallied it around the saddle horn and bent her head till she was down.

If I'm buying a horse to train myself, I like as clean of a slate as possible (actually, in a full sized horse I prefer literally untouched and having lived in a herd setting all its life thus far). And I'm one who prefers reactive horses. When I first got Spanky he actually made me a bit nervous. I thought he would be fine one day and then blow up in a second. I've put him through quite a bit though, so I'm pretty much over that thinking lol


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## Knottymare (Sep 24, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> Lol! Yup I had her haltered and our training saddle on her, tied her leg up, dallied it around the saddle horn and bent her head till she was down.
> 
> If I'm buying a horse to train myself, I like as clean of a slate as possible (actually, in a full sized horse I prefer literally untouched and having lived in a herd setting all its life thus far). And I'm one who prefers reactive horses. When I first got Spanky he actually made me a bit nervous. I thought he would be fine one day and then blow up in a second. I've put him through quite a bit though, so I'm pretty much over that thinking lol


 - that's just the way I've seen it done...
Well, I guess ALL horses are reactive. It's just where the threshold is. Like Dolly... she's got a long fuse. She'll usually shut down rather than blow up. If I'm smart and paying attention, I don't have to see the blow up. In fact, the only time I've ever seen her lose it was at the beach. And if I'd have listened to her, I'd have noticed her fussing and fretting and letting me know she was outside her comfort zone. But my linear thinking was on a mission to be on the beach while it was still low tide. Sort of a come heck or high water situation. That is the mistake that most of us make with horses whether it be heading out on a ride or entering the show ring. We often get our head in a place where we are on a mission and nothing will cause us to deviate. Thankfully, horses are largely quite compliant and go with our flow but if pushed far enough, hard enough, we all know how ugly it can get.

Following any training method really requires us more than anything to learn to listen to our horses and understand what it is that they are trying to tell us.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

I agree. Jazz is very very short fused and there is no warning time when you near the end. And she would have made an awesome bronco lol. Spanky, well, I have yet to come to the end of his fuse, if one even exists 

Somewhere I read "If you have an hour, it will take all day and if you have all day it will take an hour" or something like that. I don't remember exactly the context it was in but it definitely pertains to horse training


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## Blackwater Farm (Sep 24, 2012)

My grandfather used to "throw" horses on the ground. I have seen it work wonders! I'm sure it's not applicable to every horse/situation but I have seen it done and work. I am a huge Clinton supporter. I have used his method on several horses, minis and full size and it has never let me down. It's his method that works and I have done it without having to buy all the "tools". I do have a handy stick that I used on my big horses but dont really like to use it with the minis. Nor do I have the halter and lead for the minis. I still apply the method and still get great results. I also like Chris Cox and Craig Cameron.


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

If you ever get the chance to see Craig Cameron live, do it. He is great, and wonderful to talk to.


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## paintponylvr (Sep 24, 2012)

lucky seven said:


> I like CA's website. His is very imformative. I am trying to use a little parelli and ca mixed together. I wish the videos weren't so expensive. Also you have to buy the halters, sticks and leads. Wish they would simplify the equipment to keep costs down.


I decided I needed to add my 2 cents worth here... Who says you need to purchase their equipment?

I made my own tie halters - CA's "mini" halter (foal) doesn't have all the knots, so any tie halter that is a "copy" will work if it properly fits your horse. The rope?? Lowes, Home Depot, Tractor Supply Co, many other hardware stores AND other Natural Horse supply stores have the rope. Marine rope is also sold by Marine stores and several have stores online. Personally, I REALLY like MCR (Mountain Climbing Rope) which comes in different metric sizes - so that you can size it to your hands. I've made my own lead ropes, lounge lines, cross ties, trailer ties and halters for years. Now, I have a lot more ponies/minis and find I end up buying more now... YEP, you can get the rope for less than what CA and PP and some others sell theirs for - but then you have to be crafty enuf to make the lead (s). It's not difficult and it IS much cheaper - if that is a concern. I made several no hardware, tie halters out of braided haystring (already paid for from my horse's hay!) - both 4 strand and 6 strand. It comes off of the round bales - the short, cut strings from small square bales doesn't work. You can also make it from paracord - several suppliers out there that have it in different colors (ooooo - you can make them in your barn/farm or your individual horses' color - I LOVE THAT) AND nowadays it comes in different weights (not just 550 cord anymore that started for the soldiers' parachutes). There are several different videos out on YouTube that show how to "tie" the no hardware halters. I purchased my directions from UBraidIt dot com. I also purchased the basic braiding book and then adjusted the sizing to suit - I've even braided breast collar training harness that works for training LOTS of young shetland/minis to drive... Cheap and holds up well. Gives your hands something to do while you are holed up over the winter while watching the DVDs you are going to get...









The 2nd one is braided from 4 strands of haystring. The next one was made by my farrier out of paracord and this is a Shetland filly that will be about 40 - 42" at maturity.






The "carrot stick" - well our feed store carries a "copy" that works well enough. And when I purchased my first one - it was only $15 vs the $50 that some of the others charge for the name. Is it the same? NO, it's not. It's heavier and not balanced anywhere near the same. Also, my copy isn't short enough (to me) to work with the smaller shetlands. Fixed that - used a lounge whip that had broken - and made a tip (duct tape & leather), then attached the "string". I DO like CA's equipment - to be honest. It's weighted different than the rope I can get for much less and make my own. BUT the cost does add up. I'd love to have the children's stick - it's now only 2 ft long vs the 4 ft long one and it's "ergonomic" - it feels great in the hands that are starting to have issues (early stages of arthritis? YIKES), but right now, the cost is something I'd rather put into some other things (like sending a couple of my mini/shetlands to trainers and to Congress and Nationals). There are other stores on line now that carry "carrot sticks" for less than either PP or CA's. (I think Natural Horse Supply is one... I know there are others but don't have the links on this computer, so can't tell you what they are. NHS also has a bunch of short articles on the different training techniques that you can print out and make your own book...)

Last - our own miniature horse stores cary tied rope halters and DVDs on training minis by a trainer that uses NH type techniques. Ozark Mtn Mini horse Tack, Star Lake Farm, Mini Express - etc... Check them out. They don't have the longer lead/lounge lines or the "carrot sticks", tho, LOL.

Over the last 20 years or more, I've gathered a nice library of books from the different trainers - even have a couple from british trainers that are a "twist" on the PP and CA stuff.. Neat to see what they do! The book on bombproofing is also a GREAT one. AND don't discount the training by Linda Tellington Jones - who also has books w/ pictures showing their "style" with ponies and mini's (& they use flat nylon halters w/ stud chains on the lead ropes). John Richard Young put out a book 30 + yrs ago - called "Training the Young Rider" - and it's a big pictorial w/ his daughter and a "wild" pony they purchased. I remember it as being AWESOME and applied a lot of his techniques to my training too (Loved the articles that he used to write for the "Horseman" magazine before it went out of production). I currently don't have a copy of that one and need to get it again. I've been fortunate to be able to go to many clinics - though only a couple by the "big names". Some techniques work for me - others are harder for me to grasp. I sometimes have a tendency to be too aggresive - but even with that, my ponies/minis adjust.

There is a PONY TRAINER on the West Coast (can't remember what state) that uses NH techniques (think mostly PP, but can't remember). She has now written at least one book and also has several YouTube vids up. I think she's PonyPro (s)? Can't remember, sorry. But liked her stuff and was wishing I could send one of my 1/2 arab/shetland ponies to her for riding training - may still evenutally do so, not sure!

Lots of advice from a lot of different people here - I was VERY surprised, myself. Even found a couple names I'd not heard before and will be looking them up!


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## Knottymare (Sep 24, 2012)

WashingtonCowgirl said:


> "If you have an hour, it will take all day and if you have all day it will take an hour" or something like that. I don't remember exactly the context it was in but it definitely pertains to horse training


That sounds like something Tom Dorrance would have said. Maybe he did!

He did say this:

"The best thing I try to do for myself is to try to listen to the horse. I don't mean let him take over. I listen to how he's operating: what he's understanding or what he doesn't understand: what's bothering him and what isn't bothering him. I try to feel what the horse is feeling and operate from where the horse is." - TD
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## Knottymare (Sep 24, 2012)

We used to have a local gal that made tied rope halters and leads exactly like the Parelli stuff. I LOVE it. the rope has such a nice feel to it. It communicates your movements so much better than the crappy acrylic leads that I use for grooming time or when I want to have them on a pretty lead. I wish I could find the clasp in a lighter weight for the minis because they are so safe. If anything happens, the clasp is the thing that will fail, saving your horse and your rope


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## WashingtonCowgirl (Sep 24, 2012)

I just bought a rope halter, it was crazy cheap and I'm hoping that it will be quality when I get it  I guess we will see when it gets here lol


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## islandminis (Sep 25, 2012)

Interesting topic - I have had the Parelli CDs and switched to Anderson. They both had good points and information. I also found a fellow here in BC - Jonathan Fields and really like his approach, I learned something from all of them but the best thing I ever did was to go to a Natural Horsemanship trainer for hands on learning. There is nothing like a horse who knows how to respond to what's being asked IF you are asking the right way. This horse taught me that I was not communicating in "horse" and when I finally figured it out (with the help of the horse and the instructor) it was a revelation. Ever since I have been much better at being clear about what I am asking the horse to do, something hours of of watching could not do. The cd's were a good start, had to have the ideas in there, but hands on with a horse that "knows it's stuff" really gets it clear. It's sort of reverse learning - The second I did it right the horse would reward ME by doing what I wanted.


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## MountainWoman (Sep 25, 2012)

I think CA and Parelli and all the other trainers have great things to offer and I'll throw in Julie Goodnight as well because I haven't seen her name mentioned. I followed CA for a couple of years with my riding horse and then moved on to clicker training following Alexandra Kurland's program. I got farther along with my horse in one month with the clicker than I did in a couple of years with CA. BUT and this is a big BUT clicker training is not about grabbing a bag of treats and rewarding your horse constantly and I think many people don't know what they are doing with clicker training and they end up accidentally reinforcing pushy behavior.

The reason professional rainers are wonderful is that they have developed impeccable timing, they know what they are doing and they've spent years perfecting their training. Some methods and trainer's styles will be more in tune with you and others won't. I don't think there is one "One Size Fits All" trainer because we all have different training personalities.

I think many of the failures with non professionals with any training system at least with full size horses is that newbies (usually older like me) know nothing about horses and then expect to be out there riding the trails alone after following a certain program. Some of these people have already purchased a horse that they shouldn't have because they liked it's color, breed, etc.

The best thing you can do is to watch RFDTV and get your hands on as many videos as possible. I'd also try to visit a local riding stable and find an instructor you admire and perhaps have them help you as well. Training a horse is a journey and it will have highs and lows. You just have to keep on going until you find what works best for you and your horse.


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