# Post Tying.



## Carly Rae (Jan 3, 2016)

Hi,

A while ago I posted about my 2yo Colt Toby, and his attitude and disobedience. I have had so many helpful comments that I really appreciate. Today Toby was in one of his moods, didn't want to cooperate, so I did one of the suggestions- Post Tying.

I tried to do easy stuff with him this morning, just had him tied to a post, I touched him all over, lifted his feet, brushed him and he was... Horrible. He swung around, reared up, kicked his back legs when I had a hold of them. So I tied him to a post for about 30 minutes, he was still pawing at the ground. So I have taken him into the house yard tied to a tree away from the others, I will be working on the float in that area so I can keep an eye out on him.

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He has been tied to the tree for about 5-10 minutes now and I'm not exaggerating here as soon as I went to tie him to that tree he was rearing up making it so hard for me to tie him.

So a few questions:

-How long should I tie him for?

-Should I repeat this every day? If so what if he is not misbehaving, do I still tie?

-What if he doesn't stop at all and has been tied all day? Let him go, keep him tied?

I ended up getting photos as I had my camera with me at the time. These are more so I can look back to see any improvement. I state this as "Day one" I have never had this much problem with a horse in my life. He is nearly worse than when I was working with the 4 un handled giveaways....

Please let me know if I should do anything else or if i'm doing something wrong. Also I have just altered the knot so its not dangling so he cant get his legs caught. And he has a little more lead now, not much though.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 3, 2016)

Okay, so my plans were ruined. It started pouring down rain, I bolted outside to Toby, tripped on a stepping stone and went flying into the ground on rocks. Skinned my hands and knees and did my ankle again... Yay




. So I put Toby in his stall and fed him.


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## Minimor (Jan 4, 2016)

You have him tied too short. He should be able to stand comfortably, with his head and neck in a relaxed position. The way he is tied here, even if he stands quietly he would not be able to stand comfortably...and that alone will cause him to fuss. The only time I would tie that short is of I were trying to do something with the horse and were trying to keep him still enough to get the job done.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 4, 2016)

I did loosen his lead so he was more comfortable, and in the photos he was wrapped around the tree from walking around it, which I fixed as well. Please excuse my errors. Im getting a little confused now. Is tying to a post a bad thing? I was just doing what a lot of people suggested to me to teach him patience. Please let me know whether I should continue this or stop.


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## NewToMini's (Jan 4, 2016)

Horses need to know how to stand tied. The rope needs to be long enough so that he can stand in a relaxed postion without any tension on the rope. Untie him when he is standing quietly. If you untie him while he's acting up, then you've taught him that acting up gets him untied.

However, tying is not meant to be punishment for the horse. If he won't stand still when you groom him and kicks when you clean his hooves, he needs trained for it. Do what makes him anxious (if just touching his legs makes him react, then just touch them for now, or even just the air around his legs, and work up to cleaning his hooves), and keep the pressure on until he stands still, and then release the pressure and give him a few seconds break (and as soon as he stands, release the pressure, before he starts moving again). You can train a horse to accept anything through pressure and release.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 4, 2016)

Thanks for that. Ill keep all that in mind for next time.

So I have to keep him tied so he is comfortable, release when he is quiet. But sometimes when he stands quiet, I take him off the lead and walk him away then he acts up when leading. How should I respond to this? Tie him back up or go do something different? You said it should not be used as a punishment, so if he acts up after and I tie him back up, that's a punishment, right?

Its not that he reacts when I touch his legs, its when I pick them up and go to pick them he tries to force them back down out of my hand. Or he tries to walk away or swing his rear end away to try get me to let go then he starts kicking it until I let go because I cant held it any longer. Some times when I hold his back leg he uses me as a 'step' to get his whole hind end up, which I let go otherwise he will end up hurting me or himself.

How do I get him to stand quiet while I brush him and lift his hooves. Should I just keep doing what I am doing and let him move around till he gives up? Should I teach him to stand tied first? Then after he knows to stand, then should I go into brushing? I just dont know what to do when he throws himself side to side when I try brush him ect. Sometimes he is fully into me with all his weight trying to push me out of his way with his belly. And when I tie him up he pushes me and nudges me really hard in the tummy with his head trying to shove me out of his way.

I wish he was like Kevin. I have literally just given Kevin love ever since I took him in and all he has ever done was respect me. Kevin will stand while being brushed, he doesn't even have to be on a lead, although when you brush his mane he likes you to hold his head in one arm so he can close his eyes and rest there, its so cute, he will also just fall asleep on you if you sit on a chair and hold his head and stroke his forehead. I got Kevin as a wild foal. And I have never had any drama like this. I guess its just the type of horse, At least I have one. I am going to geld Kevin as soon as I get a job, I want him to stay my little boy forever, and we already have Toby for breeding.

When Kevin is tied this is how he will stand at all times, I wish Toby would do the same.


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## Minimor (Jan 4, 2016)

it takes more than tying a horse up for awhile to teach him his manners. yes, they should know how to stand tied, and stand quietly. However--when it comes to the fussing and kicking--simply tying him up and letting him stand will not fix it. Yes, he does first need to stand quietly while tied. when ut comes to brushing him or picking up his feet, can you get your mom to help you? Put a second lead rope on him and have her hold it so that he is sort of cross tied. That will limit his side to side movement. Start out ribbing him with a cloth--that eliminates any possibility that be finds the brush too harsh on his skin.

picking up his feet--pick one up and hang on to it as long as you safely can. if you must let it go pick it up again immediately. Perhaps have your dad help with this--someone stronger than you that can hold the leg up easier than you can. It isn't easy to fix this once the horse is spoiled about holding his feet up. Has Toby always been this way or was he okay at one time and this is a new thing?

if Toby is misbehaving when you lead him this has to be fixed during the leading g--tying him up won't fix this for you. He must respect you and learn his leading manners.

If you continue to have problems with him I won have to recommend gelding him too. A stallion must be well behaved and well mannered. Gelding will not automatically make him well behaved but it will go a long way in making him easier to train. Those hormones can cause huge issues with attitude and manners.

What do you currently use for leading Toby? An ordinary nylon halter? I would recommend a good rope halter--I personally have no liking for rope halters but I admit they have their place. I like the Stacy Westenfall halter for difficult horses but even the cheaper plain Weaver halter offers more control than a plain nylon halter. A chin chain can also work well, but is much harsher. I recently had need of something with more control for one ukrse--I did not want to go to a chain so bought a rope halter. I am using it with good results. My pony wasn't being bad mannered--he had just learned how to run through a plain halter and was impossible to stop. With the rope halter--I can hang onto him. I am also using it on another pony now--that fellow, because it is different from what he was used to, seems slightly more relaxed in it. For him, any little bit of relaxation is good and so I will continue using it on him.

This pony--for reasons I will not go into-cannot be tied. He ties fine, until one wants to do anything with him, then he becomes dangerous. So--I groom him and trim his feet with his rope on the ground or over his neck. I can work with him that way. If I tied him up and tried to do the same thing he would likely kill me. Poor guy--he has his reason for being this way and I can live with never tying him up. there is always an exception to the rule and he is mine.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 4, 2016)

Thank you.

Yes my mum would be happy to help me out. I can lift his hooves and hold them, just when he levers his whole hind end off the ground using the leg I am holding to help him up. Should I just hang on? Or should I let go then pick back up?

Toby was just like Kevin, he had no attitude like this. Then we noticed his testicles dropped, he always had them tucked up when he was little, then a few weeks ago after they 'dropped' he began prancing around the girls, mounting Willow when she was on season ect. Then with all that I got his attitude. His attitude changed so suddenly. This all started a couple months ago.

Yes, Toby just wears a nylon one like Kevin's one in the photo. I make rope halters as well, but would it be better to buy one?

Thanks again.


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## JMS Miniatures (Jan 4, 2016)

First of all if he is full of energy all ready teaching one to tie will not be successful. You need to get his feet moving and get him to respect you. Picking up the feet will also be a battle. I wouldn't make him run and run til he looses air but make him work and learn something. Once he is using the thinking side of his brain and not a ball of energy and wants to stand there try picking up the feet, don't be at a rush at first just baby steps and try not to let him take his foot away from you. Once you are done working with him then you tie him up in a relaxed position and leave him there for at least an hour. Tie him after each training session. This gives him a chance to think about the lesson he just had and also patience when it comes to being tied.


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## Magic Marker Minis (Jan 4, 2016)

We resently found out a way to help keep a horse from pulling his/her foot out of your hands.

While I can usually hold on and keep the foot, my business partner can't. We were told that when the horse keeps trying to pull its foot from you, to suddenly release the foot. The horse, not suspecting it, ends up not landing flat on its hoof. It doesn't hurt the horse. My business partner tried it and the horse soon quit trying to pull its foot from her. It takes time and patience.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 5, 2016)

Thank you all.

JMS Miniatures, you said to "Get his feet moving and get him to respect you" What exactly do you mean by that? Get his feet moving by lunging him? How do I make him not a ball of energy? Sorry if that seems to be a silly question.

When I lead Toby, sometimes he doesn't like to give me my personal space. Sometimes he just walks really close which is ok, but sometimes he pushes into me. Not shoving or anything, but like trying to get me to go his way which Is annoying having his weight on me all the time and Im sure its not the right way to be leading. So how can I get him to walk a distance away from me without being on top of me invading my space?

The times he is really bad to handle is when he is not near his girls. Oh boy does he play up if he isn't near them. How should I deal with that? Just keep him close to the other horses at all times? Or teach him that he cant always have his way and not be around the others?


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## Carly Rae (Jan 5, 2016)

Id be the happiest person alive if I could Improve his behavior even the slightest. Its a lot of errors in little places which has created a big problem. Thank you all for your help.


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## Magic Marker Minis (Jan 5, 2016)

One,if possible, you need to pen him separate from the girls. He is getting too posessive of them. You chould never have a fight on your hands when removing him from mares.

With crowding your space, use a hand whip or a small stick (works better). Hold it at hip level, pointing at horse. If he crowds you, he will be poked by the stick. He will eventually start keeping his distance because he gets poked when invading it.

From what it sounds like, you have your hands full with a once rescued colt that now has figured out what girls are. You will have to be on your toes with him because he sounds like he can be dangerous to humans, if is attitude is not curbed. Right now he is not using the brain between is ears, just what he thinks is his brain (his testicles).


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## MiniNHF (Jan 5, 2016)

When I first got my stallion at 2 years old he had a bad habit of cutting in on a circle when I was lunging him, in or outside of a round pen. He quickly learned that if I said "out" that meant he better get back out on the circle, if not I would poke him hard with the end of the lunge whip so it was uncomfortable which most of the time was his side. Now if he even thinks about cutting in and I tell him out he quickly jumps to the outside and doesn't even try it again.


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## Minimor (Jan 5, 2016)

absolutely you must teach him that he does not always get his way. He must learn to behave whether he is near the girls or not--if you never take him away from the other horses he is going to be impossible in future. I would keep him away from them all the time--he can.stay on his own until he learns that there are things to being a horse besides MARES.

a few days ago there were FB posts about a runaway mini stallion. Seller said the horse was easy to handle but he had the stallion out on pasture with mares and apparently never took the horse out of the pasture. Buyer took horse home and discovered the horse wouldn't stay home. he kept getting out and terrorizing the neighboring acreages. When a woman tried to catch him he went at her, knocked her down twice and bit her. Absolutely unacceptable behavior from a stallion --last I heard the new owner had resold the horse. I haven't heard if the guy was able to keep track of the stallion looks g enough to hand him over to the next buyer or not. Everyone agreed that it was a shame no one had mannered the horse--a horse like that should be gelded once he gets to that point. You do not want Toby to get to that point!!

there is an Australian book--I think it is called Fear Free Horse Training by Neil Davies. I think you would find it very interesting. It is a lot about saddle training but there is ground work and general basic information about handling horses too. I recommend it.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 5, 2016)

He actually has been locked away from them for about 2 days. This morning I went to see him... No Toby. Only a rug scrunched up on the ground and a broken fence... So he broke down our good fence.. and is out with the mares. Yay... More repairs

And everyone said keep him away from the mares. So its kind of like weaning a crazy foal? But I cant get him way separate from the girls, I can keep him in a different paddock but he will have contact to them through the fence. Does it have to be so they cant meet at all, or so they cant see eachother? Or can they have through fence contact. Not like the girls will go say hello anyway, they get sick and tired of him sometimes.

Should I completely isolate him? Or can he have the company of Kevin, my colt?


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## amysue (Jan 5, 2016)

I think part of his problem is being seperated from his companion, as horses are herd animals. I would start by letting him be with the colt as long as they do not fight (some stallions do). Having a companion may settle his nerves in regards to busting fences and escaping enclosures.

Eventually, as he matures further along, he may need to be kept seperate from the others, as will the colt because sexually mature stallions will a) breed any mare they find, b) fight with eachother to establish and maintain dominance and c) get more and more posessive and therefor aggressive over "their" herd, making them difficult/dangerous to handle.

My stallions are kept seperate from eachother in individual corrals so they can see eachother but not touch or fight. They are not running with the broodmare band, to avoid aggression issues, but are all respectful enough to be corraled with mares to breed live cover and even stay with the mare with a foal at her side. I do not tolerate aggression in my studs as it is dangerous. You may consider building a stud pen out of steel rails or multuple thick plank boards. Even though they are minis, they are still strong. A single 2x4 or lovely picket fence section simply is not strong enough unfortunately to contain an animal who wants out. Every horse and every situation is different, so you have to do what works for you as long as everyone is kept safe.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 6, 2016)

Thank you AmySue.

Everything is getting worse by the day...



I just dont know what to do anymore. I had him tied to a post this morning to give him a brush and practice lifting his feet. You know what? He was pretty good with all that. he stood to be brushed, he hates the curry comb but he dealt with it for me. When I lifted his feet he kicked and fussed a few times then he stood nicely once he knew I wasn't giving up. I was so happy thinking we had a good start to the lesson, which we did..

Then after we did a while of brushing and all, I thought I might just go see if he will lead nicely too... Nope... I got him on his lead, gave him a pat telling him he was a good boy. Then I untied him and went to open the gate, thats when it all went bad.. He saw that I was opening the gate and barged through slamming me into the post. I didnt let go, then I had to shut the gate and he was pawing at the ground trying to jerk the lead out of my hand. Then we began walking... Well more like him full pushing me and Im trying to stand my ground. I tried your suggestion Magic Marker Minis, using a stick to keep his distance, he didnt even care about it, just kept invading my space.

So once I got to the place I wanted, i tried to get him to stop and stand beside me. But he refuses to stand beside me, only in front of me facing me... Then I cant do anything, but try maneuver myself back beside him, but he stands in front of me for his advantage... If I make an abrupt move, move the crop near him ect he will full rear at me... Now Toby is a very small light weight mini and is easy to stand over him, but Im afraid, he has the upper hand when rearing at me.

So I used another one of your suggestions, which I believe Minimor suggested to me. Bring my dad in to help... He ended up spinning around and rearing at dad with full force and busted dads knuckles open.. Then dad tried controlling him but Toby wouldn't budge. Dad gave him back to me (My parents are not horse people) and I tried to lead him again then I tried to take a stop, again he was in front of me, if I try to stand back at his side we are just going in circles... Then to end the lesson he came at me rearing his hooves went either side of my waist hitting me in the side and I just ended up kind of bear hugging him around the neck and I forced him back off me pushing him with everything I had.

Then I gave up, you all said "Dont give up" but I just couldn't do it anymore. I need to be able to get him right away from those girls... But how, I dont know... He will just break through the fence, and with the layout of our yard he will always be able to see the girls. Our place is very open.

How can I get him to start thinking with his brain again? He is becoming dangerous... And Toby is the apple of my eye... well was, before he became like this.



I am considering once I get a job to send him off to be professionally trained.. Or I go to some training school or something... I am failing miserably with all this training stuff. I have this health problem, I'm not too sure what it is, I have to see a doctor. But it could have something to do with my nerves, skin or muscles. The problem is that everything hurts 10x worse, its hard to explain, but if I lightly scratch my ribs I feel winded like I have just been punched in the ribs. And if I am being poked lightly in the shoulder I feel like crying in pain, I cant lean on things like a table or a wall because it hurts, and the pain lingers for an abnormal amount of time. Which is why it makes it hard for me to handle Toby because he can easily hurt me... But anyway this topic isn't about me, sorry.

What would you do if Toby was rearing at you? What should I do?

I am going to separate him anyway possible, he doesn't fight with Kevin so he can have him as company. I will probably have the girls out in the big paddock and the boys with electric fence out the side. I cant really explain it easily, I probably could draw it and post it but that may be unnecessary. But The big paddock is just straight across our property. We have about an acre as our 'house yard' and after that its fenced right across and the horses have the rest of the 13 acres we have.

And so I could run electric fence from our front fence, to the fence that divides the house yard from the paddock. Thats all id need to do as they will be closest to our neighbors fence. But then he can still 'talk' to the girls through the fence. Is that ok that he can still have some contact? Or should I bring it back off the paddock fence so he cant reach the girls at all?

Sorry for the big reply.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 6, 2016)

Just another thing. Toby is very safe to be around when not on the lead. Like if you go in and walk around the yards she will come right up for a cuddle and a scratch then goes and does his own thing. His is very easy approachable and you wouldn't think he had any behavior issues.. Its just when he gets bored on what you are doing when on the lead, or simply wants his own way. Then its it the worst when you try take him away from the girls. He doesn't like to be controlled, he likes to control.

I just thought I might mention that so people dont get the wrong idea and think he will rear up at you for being near him or anything.


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## AngC (Jan 6, 2016)

Wow.
I've been reading your posts and kind of got lost in all of them, so I picked this one to respond to.
You're floundering.

I think you need to back off, take a break, and figure out what it is you want to do with your horse. Specifically. Step-by-step. Then you really do need to take only the baby steps you mentioned. If you or anyone else is/or was getting hurt, get out of there; make sure the horses have food and water and reassess the situation. I think you really need to have an immediate goal. Tying a horse to a post for a few hours to teach patience may not be the best first goal? You've received some good advice in various threads here. I personally would not adhere to all of it, not because it's "wrong" but because I don't feel it would work for my horse/s. You have to come to your own accommodation of what you feel you can do with your horse/s. And if something's not working or it's too frustrating, then slow down and try to do things in smaller increments.

To pick on one question in your post....
_What would you do if Toby was rearing at you? What should I do?_
No one can answer that for you... ...not fairly, anyway.
My answer to that would be: I don't know Toby, but I'd smack the crap out of him. However, that isn't a fair answer, because I don't see/fully understand the circumstances under which he did this to you.

I think you're looking for an easy answer, and I don't think it exists (as a dumb newbie, I searched for quite awhile and never found it.)


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## Carly Rae (Jan 6, 2016)

Argh, I just read over it all and I was a total drama queen sorry all, just one time I think I have been doing really good, then it goes bad, then I get all jumbled up and confused. So I am going to try look at this all at a positive perspective.

AngC, I know I am floundering. I took a break and had a long hard think about it all, read more and thought harder. You are right, once again I began to rush things.

With the question, I didn't directly mean you handling my horse, I meant if a horse was rearing at you just trying to stand over you, what would you do? But anyway...

But on a GOOD note!




, I decided that I would go out to Toby this afternoon just before dark and practice leading again, not out in the open-But In the pens. It was SO much more positive, not once did I get angry or want to give up. I took in consideration what a lot said how I should find what works for ME. And I did. And it worked very well. I used the stick method, to keep him a distance which worked much better than using the crop to keep him away. I completely ditched my whip- Toby was much happier to cooperate with me when I was not holding a whip, I think he saw it as a threat maybe?. I used 'Pressure and Release' for when he did not stand by my side and kept moving his feet. I would put pressure on the lead and released when he stood. We went around and around the pen changing directions, stopping, standing then walking. Just kept a routine of all that. I kept the lesson short, about 10 minutes-I read in a book not to drag lessons out. We finished the lesson on a positive note, not once did he rear at me or even show signs of wanting to rear. By the end of the lesson he had a fully slack lead, he had his head and he was following by my side the right distance. He was very relaxed and so was I. I was very happy with him, happy in general. I didn't have enough time to do the tying after the lesson as it was getting late.

Now we just have to do it all again tomorrow





I just hope future lessons can be like this(I know not all will). I am ACTUALLY going to take it slow this time. I am going to do what I feel works for us as a team. I am also going to spend LESS time on the computer, on forums ect and spend MORE time just simply bonding with my horses, not just thinking I am but actually not. I mean it this time.

Thanks everyone for your help. I will not be posting over and over pages full of negative anymore. Thank you for putting up with me



I will probably log on once a day so i can just take a break.


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## Minimor (Jan 6, 2016)

if it were me and my colt reared at me, he would get belted a good one with the whip. Once, maybe twice in quick succession. some horses respect one smack, some need the first one to ignore and the 2nd one to pay attention.

Now--sorry to say you may not like this--if I had a 15 year old working with a colt that behaved this way--that colt would be gelded. Quite honestly--he is too much for a youth handler and I am surprised that your parents allow you to keep him intact. A stallion that does not respect his handler and one that does not respect fences (that is extremely important to me) is not worthy of remaining a stallion.


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## Minimor (Jan 6, 2016)

Ack. My phone has a mind of its own.

I wanted this on the end of my post above....if you can continue as things were in your last leading leading lesson then perhaps you will get past Toby's issues. Sometimes a horse will behave better without a whip in the handler's hand. It can depend, too, on how comfortable the handler is with carrying/using the whip--sometimes it is just a quirk of the horse. Bit good you had a successful leason; I hope you cam continue in this positive way!


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## MiniNHF (Jan 6, 2016)

I have to agree with Minimor on all those points, I would be doing the same thing.


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## chandab (Jan 6, 2016)

I've been reading your posts and trying to follow and not sure what I could add, until today.

Work where you can, not where you can't.

If working in a pen is working for you and you have his attention, then stay there and work with him til his manners are impeccable in the pen and he's unflappable and you are confident. Then, when you get to that point, start working him outside of the pen in small sessions, if he's only good for 5 minutes out of the pen, then only work him out of the pen for 5 minutes and do the rest of his lesson in the pen where his manners are better and your confidence is better. Keep building on those positive sessions and lessons; if something doesn't work, go back a step and work on that more, then try the new step. It's real easy to say take small steps, but I do know how hard it can be to stay in those small steps, you want more and sometimes push too fast and you have an issue, you just need to take a step back and work where you can.


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## Max's Mom (Jan 6, 2016)

As I read this, my heart goes out to you. You obviously love Toby and want what is best for him.

I have very limited experience with handling stallions. I know that quite a few mini people don't geld even their pet minis, and that you mentioned that you would like Toby to be your breeding horse. However, after reading everything you have written about his fairly sudden change of behavior, it seems to me that the real problem is that you have a stallion and you are not experienced enough to handle a stallion. You don't have family members or people nearby who are able to help you safely and appropriately handle a stallion. Furthermore, you do not have the set-up for keeping a stallion.

I am afraid that you are going to get hurt. An inexperienced horsewoman and an untrained stallion is a dangerous combination. Yes, there will be times that things seem to go okay, but you have already seen that there are also many situations that have not been okay. All it takes is one of those bad times and you or someone in your family could be badly injured.

Please very seriously consider gelding Toby as soon as possible or find him a home where his caretakers know how to safely handle and train a stallion.

Best of luck. I mean no disrespect, only genuine concern.


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## Cayuse (Jan 6, 2016)

I think the above post is a good one. I agree with Max's Mom, you have a stallion and are inexperienced and there are mares around and that is just not a good combination. Please think about having him gelded.

I also am writing this out of concern only. I don't want to see you or him get hurt.


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## NewToMini's (Jan 6, 2016)

I recommend you either get a professional trainer (to work with both you and Toby) or have him gelded. Your horse is dangerous and you need to treat him as such.

If my horse reared at me like that, it would get a firm punishment (likely a kick to the ribs) to let it know it can't push me around like that. If a horse is acting in a dangerous manner out of dominance or aggression, you need to put it in it's place.


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## JMS Miniatures (Jan 6, 2016)

Please read my PM post.

This boy has no respect for you. You have to be the one in control here, not him, he is totally in charge of your right now. He might be little but he is a horse and you got to treat him as such. Its even more so as a stallion and I agree with the others I would have him gelded.

If he rears at you make him back up and I don't mean ask him to I mean make him, don't be nice about it.


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## Magic Marker Minis (Jan 6, 2016)

She has said in previous responces she is gelding him, just has to save the money for it.


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## NewToMini's (Jan 6, 2016)

Magic Marker Minis, she said she's gelding her other colt. She plans to keep this one a stud for breeding.


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## Magic Marker Minis (Jan 6, 2016)

Okay, I misread. Toby definitely needs to be gelded. If he's acting like this as a two year old, think what she has to deal with once be matures and is even bigger (heavier).

All of our stallions are well behaved. If they get out of hand (usually during breeding season), we show them we are alpha. I have a coming yearling colt, once we move, will be getting more lessons. He's full of himself, but we don't let him try to kick, bite, or throw temper tantrums.

We were trying to trim his hooves a couple weeks ago and he was being a butt. We kept at it, finished, and then he was tied. He had to stand there, while his buddies had their feet done and released. He threw a couple tantrums, but finally found out he wouldn't be turned loose until he stood quietly.


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## MiniNHF (Jan 7, 2016)

I know a mini gelding that when he was a colt was unruly no matter what was done to correct him and it was firm corrections, he was just dangerous and didn't care. Now that he is a gelding he is not so hard to handle any more and really calmed him down.


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## AngC (Jan 8, 2016)

You must be doing something ok, because your Toby looks shaved (if I cranked up a shaving implement around any of ours, I'm pretty sure they'd have a freak-fit because it's something I've never done before) also you brush him; you mention that you lead him successfully sometimes, but then sometimes not.

I think you have multiple problems going on and perhaps you're trying to "perfect" too many things at once. I've found that it's easier for me to chunk up training ideas/sessions into little-bitty-bits.

Somebody on one of these threads mentioned a book. I have a book recommendation, but only if you like to learn from books and have the patience. If not, don't bother to waste your money.

Here's a link to the lady's site: (the book is titled: 101 Ground Training Exercises for Every Horse & Handler)

http://www.horsekeeping.com/horse_books/101_Ground_Training.htm

That link shows the table of contents and a sample chapter/lesson. Check it out; it may work for you if you're a book-learning type person. I really liked it because it gives step-by-step instructions. It "chunks" things up into increments that I felt I could understand and do. It gives some hints and variations and addresses common problems. I checked out Amazon Australia; it's about 10.00 AUD in the electronic/Kindle edition. Coco and I have spent hours out in the pasture while I explained to her that we really needed to get past the lesson on haltering.





A comment to the adults on this forum, regarding the stallion gelding comments:

This one makes me "twitch" because I have a stallion who I have no intention of gelding (and absolutely no intention of breeding either.) If CarlyRae hopped out there tomorrow and gelded Toby, I think she would end up with a gelding with behavior issues vice a stallion with issues. I hope she reads the comments and observes the fact that stallions can sometimes be dangerous. But some of those comments were not only potentially discouraging to CarlyRae, they were insulting to her parents (ie, that they're stupid for letting her play around with a stallion.) Well, that's a great way to keep the youth members on-board, aint' it?

But CarlyRae seems resilient, so I hope she keeps reading here, because it is really one of the nicer forums with nicer people with some really helpful information.


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## Minimor (Jan 8, 2016)

AngC, absolutely no one said her parents are stupid...where on earth did you get that?? I said I am surprised they allow her to handle this horse...only you have twisted that into something worse. Please do not put words in people's mouths!!

And quite honestly I think you would be surprised at how much the gelding surgery will mellow a bad acting colt. No it doesn't automatically make a well mannered well trained gelding--but you take away those hormones and it eliminates a lot of what is driving the bad behavior. it makes it so much easier for that horse to behave properly!


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## Magic Marker Minis (Jan 8, 2016)

And she did say once he figured out he was a boy, his behavior changed. He was better behaved before.


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## JMS Miniatures (Jan 8, 2016)

My gelding thats in my profile pic he was breeding mares at age 2, he was a handful as a stud but once the mares were bred he became downright hateful to them. I tried working with him on some jumps as he seemed to be talented at the jumps, but he was just real bitey. Then you didn't even want to be in the same pen with him. I was a teenager, I was still learning how to properly train a horse, I knew I was over my head. I still wanted to keep him but I knew I couldn't do anything with him as a stud, so as soon as I got home from Nationals I got him gelded. The next day he was a whole nother horse.

Now he is a 3X Hall of Fame horse in Western CPD, Obstacle and Hunter. Trust me if he was a stud he wouldn't have done all that.


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## Cayuse (Jan 8, 2016)

Carly Rae, I had a thought about his rearing. If he rears up again, try to step to the side of him so you are not standing directly in front of him. When you step to the side, try to bring his head around with you and that will hopefully throw his balance off and that will put you in control.

By stepping to the side you will also be a little less out of striking range if he should choose to do that. I hope that makes sense.


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 9, 2016)

Carly Rae I am going to be blunt now. You do not have the experience to keep a stallion. You are going to get badly hurt. Added to this your mares are very likely to be in foal already and you will have no idea when they are due- what are you going to do if, best case scenario, they foal down OK but the colt will not let you near them? This can easily happen. If you do not have the facilities to keep a colt in you do not have the facilities to keep mares and foals in, either. Where will you keep the other colt when he is gelded, as the entire one will not tolerate him near his mares? Are these things you have sat down and seriously considered?

You need to get both colts gelded ASAP and if I were your parents I would be lending you the money to do this- could you ask them if they would be willing to do this? Get them both gelded and hope the mares are not in foal. Enjoy working with the Minis you have and get all the experience you can possibly get....colts are like buses, there will be another one just as good along in a little while!


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 9, 2016)

One thing I do HAVE to say to you is this- if you do not have the money to geld the colt how are you going to manage when something goes wrong with a foaling mare- because, trust me, that can run into thousands!


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## supaspot (Jan 9, 2016)

I also have to add ...if he truly does have a bad temperament do you really want to breed that into your foals ?


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 9, 2016)

Carly, i really think he needs gelded. I'm very sorry but i don't think it does him any benefit being a stallion. Rather than pay money to contain him, pay for pregnant mares etc etc...pay for the gelding. I know foals are nice, but...really. You have to look at the horse, the situation and really think about whats for the best.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 9, 2016)

I don't know what I'll do, I'm so torn between decisions






I understand what you all mean that gelding him will be better for me. But I spent so long saving my money specifically to buy Toby to be our stallion, now all that time, effort and money will have to just be thrown out. Gone. I spent nearly every day with him working with him ever since he was 6 months old trying to avoid this... He literally was dead quiet, never put a foot out of place. I will probably have to geld him



, but really the last few days working with him have been great.

Well thank you all for the help..


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 9, 2016)

I really don't mean to offend at all, i think you're a nice lassy, but you have many years ahead of you. Years = experience. I'm 28 and only got my first stallion and ive had horses since i was 12. Its not a race, there is no NEED to get in to breeding and producing until you are ready and able to train. At the moment, i don't think you need a stallion. And honestly i don't think he is a stallion type miniature. I would geld him. You have a foal on the way (maybe two) that is enough to be thinking about at the moment.


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## amysue (Jan 10, 2016)

All of that time, money and effort will not necessarily be thrown out by gelding him, as it has been a big learning experience for you, it will save you time and money and lots of frustration. It sounds and looks (from the photos) that you love your horses very much, but you aren't set up to raise foals and keep stallions right now.

For safety reasons you need some serious upgrades to your facility that sound out of budget right now. If you geld the stallions then they should all be able to run together and they should stay inside their fence enclosures without trying to escape and stabling them together in that shed should be fine. However, If kept in-tact you will need to build a separate shed with reinforced stalls for the studs, as the ones in your picture do not look secure enough for a stallion, and I see from the pictures that he already has busted out of it before. I also forsee issues trying to stable them next to each other in that barn safely. Putting a stud next to a mare in a barn has been known to cause issues, even through walls because he can still smell the mare and will act up.

More importantly is the issue with arriving foals, you do not want the stallions out with a new foal nor do you want to be re-breeding the mare right on foal heat, and that is what will happen if you keep running them all together. Foals are A LOT of work, time and money, and that is if everything goes smoothly. A pregnancy or foaling complication can cost thousands of dollars and or result in loss and heartache.

You are young, and have a lot on your plate with school and training the horses that you already have, plus you have a lot of big life changing events arriving sooner than you think....finishing school and maybe going off to college, moving out of mom and dad's house and getting your own place, getting into a relationship and starting a career? Sounds crazy, but having a barn full of horses will get in the way of those things, and could make it harder to make decisions. I bring it up because I had to deal with it once. I chose to not go away to college or get my own place right away because I did not want to give up my animals (couldn't take them to college and parents would not look after them for me). I held myself back because I let the situation get too big too fast. It took me a long time to sort it out, get situated and find the right person to put up with me and my zoo. I am still not where I want to be in life and if I could start over....I would not have jumped into it so fast. Just a thought, you may want to ask yourself why you need to breed your horses? Isn't owning and training them enough? In the "horse business/world" for the most part anyway, the horses chosen for stud are supposed to be the flawless ones who have competed and won awards and essentially earned their right to pass on their genes. I am in no way trying to insult you, but I believe that your colt is not breeding stallion material, as other members have said and I think that you two will both be much better off if he is gelded.

I'm not saying you should give up on breeding horses forever, I just do not think you are ready yet. I think if you wait until you are better prepared, you will be much happier. From the looks of some of your pictures, your mare may already may be in foal, so if you geld the stallions, you would still have one of their babies, so it would not be a loss anyway as you will have a baby to train that will take up all of your time instead of an unruly colt. You really have some important decisions to make in regards to the stallions as well as some safety upgrades to barns and fences in the near future. I certainly hope that you can get it straightened out, best of luck.


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## paintponylvr (Jan 10, 2016)

I agree with quite a few of these folks, Carly. If you've been following my thread on Mare Stare forum, you know that even experienced horse owners/breeders can occasionally have fencing issues - causing some serious $$ expenditures and heart ache. There were reasons for our issues, but it doesn't change the fact that ponies got into wrong areas and we now have unplanned, multiple foals coming. And these are from well known and shown/proven pedigrees and working lines - but at a stage when we really didn't "need them" right now. They are/were being planned for in the future, just not this year. I have, in the past, not had problems with waiting to breed mares - just didn't have all the issues with moving and help and fencing.

Please also remember that gelding Toby will not automatically make him a trained horse. He will still have issues. He will just have the *hormone* side of those issues removed - *improving* his disposition, his attention span and even his *"caring" about you*.

In one of your other posts you also mentioned that you have some health issues. It might be time to seriously consider that/those as well. If you get injured - how will it affect those health issues OR how will the health issues hinder you healing from an injury. You can still get injured while working with mares, geldings and foals, YES, but there is less chance of having a hormone driven injury by a "hot stud". What would your parents do, if he comes at you again and hurts you - putting you in the hospital? Who would care for your horses? You've also mentioned they have less knowledge than you do when it comes to the horses... Just another subject of horse ownership that you need to responsibly consider...

Yikes, I feel like I've just become the dark cloud raining on your parade or a wet blanket.



We are all still here to read/listen as you make your choices.

Have a couple of other things to let you know.

1 - I've not always agreed that a stallion doesn't make a good first horse. In some cases, I've seen it work and turned out AWESOME in not one breed, but many. But those stallions were trained previous to the owner getting them and those "green owners" were working directly with trainers/instructors that knew what they were doing. AND those stallions were EXEMPLARY and a little RARE in their own attitudes. I feel that there are too many things against you in your case, though, which is why I agree with what others have stated about gelding Toby. I have also seen debilitating injuries and when I was 13, witnessed a full size stallion tear a barn employee apart at a major breeding facility.

2 - I'm not the first one to jump on the bandwagon that "green + green = black & blue". I have actually encouraged SOME newbies to get young, green horses and learn with them. However, that comes after many years of working with people and horses and understanding personalities - of both the horse and the new owner. There used to be, here in the States, 4H programs that teamed up and ENCOURAGED a young, green 4Her (children 8 - 18 yrs of age) to start with a weanling, yearling or 2 yr old. I don't know if these programs still exist in some states - they don't here in NC. However, again, it was done with solid 4H leaders with experience and instructors ready and available for questions and guidance and again - the horses and 4Hers were often well paired. It DOES/CAN work.

But as a mom, a horses breeder and trainer - I've also been in the boat where I DID NOT let one of my daughters (who loves to ride) anywhere near a green horse. WHY? She didn't have the personality for TRAINING/SCHOOLING or the ATTENTION SPAN to catch the little things that gave warning of a pending problem or explosion. UNTIL she met "THE HORSE". That yearling filly followed her around the breeder's pasture for several hours (a filly no one could catch except at feeding time when she was run into the barn). We visited a couple more times and that filly would come running from the far ends of acres of pasture when 'Dira entered the gate! It was pretty darned amazing. I was torn but finally agreed to buy the filly. It did turn out to be a match that was close to perfect. It didn't always work - and 2x Madira was seriously injured and hospitalized - just from young people/young horse lack of attention. Even with good coverage of insurance - those two injuries were EXPENSIVE and thankfully didn't involve head injuries or ambulance/Life Flight time. BUT that mare was 'Dira's until the day she trotted over the Rainbow Bridge a couple years ago and she is still VERY MUCH MISSED by both Madira and myself. As a young adult, Madira still very rarely handles any green/young horses - just does not work with her own personality and her own comment "..I don't like constantly having to watch/school/train. I want to ride to enjoy myself..." A very telling statement!!


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 10, 2016)

Then, there is also the _horses _temperament to consider. This colt has obviously had a good sound temperament in the past. It is more than possible he just is not cut out to be a stallion. I had a colt who was absolutely HORRID as an entire. He was a bully and no pleasure to own at all, and I have had entires all my life. I had him gelded and it took him a while to settle (a full year in the end) but I have the facilities to keep entires and he was no real trouble, and after a year he had started to settle. Now he is everyone's favourite, a real sweetheart.


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## JMS Miniatures (Jan 10, 2016)

I've been there, done that. I've bought several stallions thruought the years and I'll honestly can tell you I could care less if I own one ever again. Now never say never BUT I'm very much happy with that decision.

This way I can focus on my mares. I buy the ones I like and I show them and get them known and then I send them out to the stallion I like and pay a stud fee. Is it cheaper hmm maybe not, guess it all depends on how you look at it. This way I can send my mares out to a variety of different stallions and not be so exclusive to just the one stud. Not every farm needs a stallion. I know with you in Australia I don't have a clue what your situation is if you can even do something like that.

The way I see it is you got two choices. Both will cost you money. 1. Send your colt to a trainer NOW so you can nip this in the butt AND have the trainer give you lessons because the trainer can put manners in this colt but he will be right back at it if you don't show him who's the leader of the herd. Or 2. geld him, and I still suggest you get some lessons.

I was in your shoes once too, I know how hard it can be and how expensive it can be. The horse business is not for the faint of heart. I have more than once considered getting out of it but I'm still here. Also what are your goals to breed? It has taken me about 10 years to figure it out.


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## Jean_B (Jan 11, 2016)

OK - I've read most of these, and was not going to say anything, but I am a mother, and a grandmother. I've been around horses for over 50 years. And I am going to tell you something you are NOT going to like to hear. Don't take it as a personal attack....if you were my granddaughter and she was having these problems, I would tell her the same thing.

You are in over your head. You have no experience, you have no idea what you are doing, your parents are of no help to you because they don't know anything about horses. So you are "flying blind." You have several options, but my first thought is you should NOT be breeding any mares until you have a much much better understanding of how a horse's mind works. I know every kid wants to have a "cute baby" to play with, but the best way for you to learn about horses is to get an older, WELL trained horse that is able to teach YOU. Learn about how it thinks. Learn about it's instincts. A horse does not think like a dog and it most certainly does not think like a human being. All you are doing is beating your head against the wall and as much as you love your horses, you are creating a MONSTER and a very dangerous horse. He WILL hurt you. Maybe not today, maybe not tomorrow, but you WILL get hurt if this is allowed to continue.

So I am going to echo what others have said. GELD him. Doing this will control his studdy behavior, but he still will have to be taught manners and to respect you and your space, and gelding him won't do that.....YOU have to teach him that. And it is obvious you alone cannot do it. Find someone who can teach you how to teach him....You have a lot of learning to do. If you cannot find someone to help you, perhaps you need to sell him. I wish you all the best and hope you come to a solution before this gets any worse.


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 12, 2016)

One thing I think I find is a lack of genuine consistency. You have tried loads of things but never stuck to anything. It's not a magic fix. You very well may need to do something every single day for the next two years to see any improvement. One or two days work is not going to make any difference. However I think this is hungry coming from a lack of experience. Training a young horse is so much more different to playing with one who is quiet.

You need help. If your parents can't afford a teacher or don't want to get you one you need to consider the options. I've just read another post saying he hurt you. That's not okay


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## rabbitsfizz (Jan 14, 2016)

I actually did what you are doing, but I did not have the Internet and I am absolutely POSITIVE that my parents did not know even one small fraction of what I was doing as I kept the horses a mile from my house. The first time I went to go into a stall with a foal that was going nuts my Mother tried to haul me back, and THAT was ten years later! The one thing I did not do was get an entire- all the colts I bought were gelded. I did breed a foal, but I had a very experienced friend who came and sat with me when the mare was due, and gave me loads of good advice, and I took the mare out to the stallion. It was not til ten years later that I finally bred a foal worth keeping entire. Between buying my first pony, myself, (although my Mother promised to pay all vet bills and to lend me anything I needed- like shoeing money and gelding fees) and breeding my first worth keeping colt I was hurt, badly, on numerous occasions, as I am sure many others commenting were- people of our generation just got on with it, I am afraid. Now we are trying to prevent the same things happening to you. Trust us, you will get hurt plenty as it is, by accident, without getting hurt by things that CAN be prevented. If a foaling goes wrong- what ARE you going to do?


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## Carly Rae (Jan 19, 2016)

I have thought about all comments and everything, spoke to my parents and all about this situation.

I don't want Toby as a stallion-Nor do I wan't foals yet until I gain much more experience in years to come. I did just get over my head with all the breeding, I didn't take into consideration about the complications and that I could end up loosing my mare during pregnancy. I would be destroyed if anything as such happened. I just want to get Snickas' foal safety to the ground and cut breeding out of the subject and just be happy with what I've got- Which I am so grateful for my minis. My mum said they will pay any costs for the vets for Snickas ect. And hopefully soon I can geld my boys and get a trainer and all.

Just to let all know, Toby hasn't reared or shown as much disrespect as he did. Im not saying that he is fine now, Just letting everyone know that he has settled down a bit and I think some of his reasons he acted the way he did was because I was confusing him a lot. He is the sweetest little boy when you arent trying to take him away from the girls and control him. So for now I will just keep him like he is and not try train him until I can geld and get a trainer.


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## supaspot (Jan 19, 2016)

Good for you , it takes a strong person to admit they were on the wrong path and I agree , I think you was confusing him but things will get easier once hes gelded and will he will be easier to train !


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Jan 19, 2016)

I couldn't be more impressed!



It takes so much maturity (a maturity many who are much older than you lack sadly) to recognize when you have gotten ahead of yourself. For me the first priority with my horses, since they are not a business venture, is that I be enjoying my time with them. If I have problems interacting with one of them I will look at how I can change that. Sometimes I've been forced to admit its a personality clash or in the case of my saddle horses maybe just too much horse for how much work I want to do (sometimes gelding will cure the 'too much horse' issue..sometimes its a mare lol). Either way, taking a step back is a move you can be very proud of. If you decide to try breeding again, after you've gotten some experience under your belt , there will be many opportunities to do that.

Just a note; in my experience what you are seeing is pretty common with colts who are sweet babies but demons as they begin to mature. He has become a 'teenager' with all the personality upsets of puberty. Ungelded, he may get worse before he levels out and how he is handled now will determine how much worse.


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## Ryan Johnson (Jan 19, 2016)

Carly, I think you have made the best decision and I am so impressed that you have taken on board what others have said here on the forum. Its been clear from the beginning the love you have, for not only your horses, but animals in general.

Your willingness to learn from others to try and make a bad situation better, just shows your taking steps in the right direction.

No matter how old , we keep on learning, thats what life is all about





Keep us all posted and continue to ask questions, its how we all learn.

best wishes

Ryan


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## Carly Rae (Jan 19, 2016)

Thank you all. Makes me feel a lot better now that I know that I am doing the right thing and not messing things up. I dug myself into a huge hole and couldn't decide how to get out. Now I am filling it in and going back.

I'll let you all know when he is gelded. But I think that might be a while yet, maybe a couple months. No one is hiring people for work anymore, some businesses are but finding them is my issue. I was debating on selling my driving harness as I wont be needing one for a while now and using it to geld Toby, it will probably only cover half the costs, but maybe my parents could pay the rest (About $100-$200) depending on what I get for my harness. And I can always go buy another harness when I'm ready. I also have 3 bridles and bits here that I haven't used yet. But I doubt id get anything for them. 2 are literally brand new.

I was only thinking of selling my harness and all because isn't gelding a colt sooner better than later? Kevin is still a baby so I am not in a huge rush for him. Will all colts do what Toby is doing? We had a stallion here a few years ago and he was the quietest thing out. Could Kevin do it too? Kevin is my quietest horse, which is weird because I got him for Give away completely un handled and never touched by a human.

Thank you all again.


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## paintponylvr (Jan 19, 2016)

I applaud you!! What a decision. It may not be the easiest yet - but I think it will help.

On the bridles that you can sell - the ones that are brand new - research. If they are a good quality, advertise them for sale. If they aren't the best - you can still sell them - just don't expect to get a lot. Bits can be expensive - I know as I've had to special order many over the years. You could utilize that and again - sell them for now if you aren't using them.

Selling the harness will work for now as well - again - if you aren't going to be using it any time soon.

Every penny adds up when it comes to paying a vet bill. Have you checked with the vet clinic to see if they need any help that would allow you to work off your vet bill? Maybe regular transport is a problem for you, but what about weekends? Do they go out on farm calls and need some ride along help? Do they put on any specialized "clinics" that you might be able to work at? Understand - if they can, they may only do that on a volunteer capacity, too.

*******

I have had colts as young as 2 months get "studdy", nasty attitudes and have gelded them then and seen an immediate change in attitude. Because of our situation at the time (children younger than 10 yrs of age in the paddocks and pastures - both mine and children belonging to vet clinic clients whom I often watched while parents/horses at clinic), there was no reason for the colt to stay as a stallion. At 2 months of age, he'd run down any little person (or really anyone he thought he could get away with it) in the pasture if they entered it. I have gelded mature stallions. Some colts will change over night with the surge in hormones and some just don't. It might not be as much of an issue for you, if you knew how to deal with the attitude and how to correct it without being "mean" or "picking at" the horse.

Some colts don't ever seem to get that attitude (or maybe because I've done a lot of work with our horses and they run on pastures being able to act like horses). It just really depends.



sorry there isn't an easy answer to that one.


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## amysue (Jan 19, 2016)

Paula has a good idea about working off the bill. I have done this with some of our vets before. My husband plows snow and I have cleaned the office, answered phones and filed for the small animal vet to pay off bills. Look around in your area for working student positions, maybe contact the local agricultural extention. Many rescues partner with participating vets to offer low cost gelding clinics, maybe you could reach out to them for help. You could try to start a go fund me page or reach out on on facebook for help. Maybe you could "sell" your beautiful photographs and the proceeds/donations could go towards gelding. You could use your drawing talent to make stationary, greeting cards or custom signs and sell them on ebay or etsy to raise funds. You are very creative, so use your imagination.

As far as training, I think you are wise to tone it down, as overdoing it was frustrating everyone. It is important however to keep up with his handling and working on his manners so he does not get worse, just stick to the basics that he is already comfortable with, standing still, leading and being polite, just keep sessions short and end on a positive note.


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 20, 2016)

I think Kevin is probably just "under" Toby. You could see him man up ore when Toby is gelded. But then again maybe not.


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## amysue (Jan 20, 2016)

I'm not sure how comfortable of a working relationship you have with your vet, but maybe you could work out a payment arrangement? Do you have a regular vet for your herd who does their annual check ups and shots and is familiar with your herd? Once your herd is a regular client of a practice, you may have a better chance of receiving a break. Many of the practices in my area take vet students on ride alongs and let them practice their skills in the field (with owner consent). University students in their final year of school perform many of the routine procedures on lots of farms around here at a much reduced rate, and the teaching vet is always supervising them for safety. Maybe you could look into something like that for your situation. I'm not sure if there are any vet schools or teaching hospitals near by you but it is worth a try.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 20, 2016)

We have actually never stuck with just one vet, so none are really familiar with my herd.

We have a university about 30 mins away and they have an equine vet section for their students. They do discounted work and they vaccinate and geld and all. But right now I am in the middle of doing up my float (trailer) for them so I dont have transport.

Mum said we have a lot of things to pay before we can geld which is fine, i'll just keep him away so he cant breed my mares. My dad is in the middle of building his 4 bay shed. We own 2 houses, one is in town and its a rental, my parents just did a full bathroom renovation due to a water pipe leak. And we have just had Christmas we have huge Christmases. Also in about 2 weeks we have mine and my dads birthday parties, Its my 16th and dads 50th and we have to feed nearly 100 people and we have hired a jumping castle and all for it. Then I get my drivers licence. So we have a few things to get through first. But I am still looking for jobs.

But regardless I am gelding them, just it might be a few months yet.


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 20, 2016)

I know how you feel, I can't find a vet i like for love nor money! My last vet gave me a diagnosis without even looking at my mare. Of course, i followed his advice and my mare was no better. Got a STUDENT to look at her and she gave me a better diagnosis and after her advice my mare was better. I've now switched to a new vet, who i have only used once (to scan my pregnant mare) so if i need a vet i will use them.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 20, 2016)

Oh wow. So the student was better help than the qualified vet?

This has nothing to do with horses but we took my dog Lacey in to get spayed and she came out after her operation with a hunched back and she was hobbling and she looked like she was in a lot of pain. We took her home and she couldn't do her 'business' she tried and tried but couldnt. The next day she tried again and busted her stitches. Back to the vet we went. He said something like "Oh, we must have gone wrong somewhere" No way? Of course something was wrong. The vet said she ripped them out, but she couldn't have ripped her internal ones... She had to stay overnight and we went to pick her up and she was bounding out the door in excitement to go home... He would have had to see how she was walking to know something was wrong. It was so abnormal. They also charged us an extra $80 because she was on heat when she had the operation. Dad was furious with that because we were in no rush they could have told us that there was a fee and we would have come back in a week. So that ended up being a very expensive trip..


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 20, 2016)

NO vet every should spay a dog in heat. Its like spaying 101. No wonder things went wrong! Poor Lacey. I hope she was fine after all of it.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 20, 2016)

Really!? Argh! Im never going there again... Sometimes you just cant trust vets.. My aunt has had many incidents with faults by vets with her dogs and cats over the years. She has even lost one of her dogs





She was all good thankfully, they put this red antiseptic spray on the stitches and it stained for months. She still has a little bit on the white fur on her belly, and she was spayed in Feb 2015!


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 20, 2016)

Vets are very hard to get right. My vet, who i still use to be honest, killed my budgie. I took him cause he had face mites and they gave me stuff to put on him and he was dead the next day. They gave me a refund for the stuff





The last time i used them was when my dog got hit by a car and dislocated her hip. They had to keep her in obviously, and would not let her leave because she would not eat anything or toilet. I told them she stresses if shes not home, shes never left home before so won't cope well, she barely eats if we leave on vacation and a family member is staying here! They eventually let her come home 5 days later still not eating or toileting, and as soon as she came home she ate a bowl of food and did a pee/poo.

Sometimes i think it pays to do your research on things, so you can tell a vet what you think is better for your animal. I would not let them keep my dog another day to "see if she ate" i demanded her home.


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## Carly Rae (Jan 20, 2016)

Really?? Wow poor bird.






Wow, and the vets didn't listen to you at all? I would have videoed her eating and go and shove it in their faces.. My 10 month old kitten/cat went missing for about 4 days, he ended up coming home barley walking. Dad put him in his bed and waited for me to get home. Then we took him to the vet. She felt around his body for broken bones or something and she said there was a fracture in his hip, she guessed he got clipped by a car. She gave me a week worth of tablets for him to feed every night. I actually got really close to him when he was recovering. Then one day I went to my aunts place to clean my uncles work truck and mum came over to tell me his hips collapsed and he passed away. I was crushed. But a few years later my sister told me the truth about what happened. She said his hips did collapse and he was dragging himself around with barley any life left in him. So my mum got my other uncle to come shoot him to put him out of his misery. I was only 11 or 12 so mum had to lie a little bit. I probably would have hated my uncle if I had of known, but now I understand.


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 20, 2016)

I telephoned them as soon as she did to tell them because they had asked to be kept updated, haha. I do like them in that they are the kind of vet who won't push things (e.g. if you go in asking for a wormer, they won't then tell you your dog needs this that and another thing...they give you what you go in for)

I have grew up on a yard, so cats were always about. My fave kitty got into a fight with my dog once and pulled his elbow out or something! Vet put a leg bandage on it, but it came off. I really dunno why i use this vet actually!!! One of them is really nice looking though. Ive used another vet once, when a old old dog of mine was ready to make the crossing to rainbow bridge, and they were lovely. She was crying along with us! They are a lot harder to get an appointment with though, which usually doesn't suit me cause of my work shifts and if i want a pet to go to a vet i want it now haha


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## amysue (Jan 20, 2016)

I am not one to bad mouth a vet, as I do not posess a veterinary degree or that magic lil prescription pad...but there are a few vets in my area that are NOT allowed in my barn under any circumstances, either due to repeated bad outcomes, sheer stupidity or gross unethical behavior. Sometimes, bad things happen, and the outcome is not desirable or the animal did not respond to treatment. That is not the vet's fault, but there are a few doctors around my area that I wouldn't let near a dead horse, period. I do have a good working relationship with my vet, she has been our vet since I was a lil kid. She is professional, respectful and good at what she does, as is the other doctor in her practice. She lets us pick drugs up over the counter at her office and she leads me through routine procedures to avoid farm calls. I have never had a problem with the vet students from the university, but I also have no problem telling them to look with their eyes and not their hands when the "grown-up" doctor needs to step in.


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## Rocklone Miniature Horses (Jan 20, 2016)

I think thats what it is. I like my vets manners. I like how they work and do. My horse vet is different, after a bad diagnosis cause he didnt care to look at her long enough. He didn't think she was horse enough lol

There is one vet at my animal practice i won't use though, and will ask for another one, because she hates dogs. Wrong job to be in, but literally i took my dog in for a vacc or something routine, she wouldn't touch her (normally they would look at eyes, gums, mouth, heart etc), and asked me to pin her down so she would not have to touch her. She may didn't like bull terriers, but still. Wrong job if you don't like certain animals.


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## paintponylvr (Jan 21, 2016)

Hmm, yes and no to many of the responses on this vet subject. This is going to be long!! I am not saying this to offend anyone. *Between the starred info* is what *our clinic does *and how things are handled. IF you want to "bless me out" for it - don't read it and go to another post!

I have had issues with my current vet - who actually is no longer doing large animal, individual farm calls. For that, with her blessing, I have switched vet clinics that can come out to our farm. So far, they've been out 2x in the past 12 months for routine visits, however, they don't do cats or dogs like all my previous horse/farm vets have.

****************

WHY is other vet no longer doing farm calls? Because she purchased and is now running the Spay Neuter Veterinary Clinic of the Sandhills. I do actually work for her there. We schedule *60* cats/dogs; female/male *per day, 3 days/ week for 2 vets *and *32 *animals* 1 day/week for 1 vet* (it does vary - depending on vets' schedules, holidays etc). The clinic opened in 2008 and just hit *50,000 surgeries in NOVEMBER 2015*. Myself, our other receptionist, office manager and vet techs are there 10+ hours a day. The vets are - the owner who lives about 12 miles from the clinic, a vet that drives about 5 miles one way from local community and a 3rd vet that drives about 65 miles 1 way from the north. The vets aren't there every day OR the same amount of time the rest of us are (Owner usually is - whether performing surgery or not) but they do rotate who is on-call and available for ER/questions after hours 24 hours/day 7days/week 365 days/year. WE are closed for surgeries on Friday, Saturday & Sunday. But Clinic owner still does large and small animal vaccine clinics throughout the year in different areas - some of us volunteer for those. We just "lost" a vet after Christmas that traveled about 80 miles 1 way (good job offer in her town). The clinic is a LOW COST clinic that operates in a county that ALSO helps individuals on Food Stamps, Medicaid, WIC & Section 8 housing. That means that if they provide a copy of their proof and fill out their forms, we do their surgeries for *no charge*. We actually have folks that bring their dogs/cats from the surrounding 11 counties and even from South Carolina, Virginia and Florida. The clinic only charges about 1/2 the actual cost of the spay/neuter surgery - because the *other half* is *paid for* by donations, fund raising and grants. We do give rabies vaccinations ($7) and can do microchips ($20) thru the Home Again system and for Rescues that provide them will also "install" their microchips for a nominal fee ($5). Costs are kept down - we don't have Xray or Ultrasound machines, spare meds, don't see animals for other issues (can't due to State/Federal contracts actually), do not have EXTRA personnel to constantly monitor the pet as a regular vet hospital does, do not have a separate anesthesiologist, do not remove the scrotal sack of a male animal, A LOT OF WORK IS DONE by our very much* LOVED VOLUNTEERS* who do some of the *nastiest jobs FOR FREE* - I know I'm missing some things, but... We are currently interviewing both vets (would like 1 part time & 1 part time/back up) and techs (2 part time). The problem - we don't pay much and the hours are long/hard and stressful - would be less so if we had both another vet and another tech again.

What we have is a surgical clean room with 3 surgery tables & the Oxygen setups for the smallest kitten to the largest dog (I've been told that a local zoo also brought in Tiger cubs to be done - more than 3 years ago - before I started working here); 2 prep tables in our prep area - also with oxygen sets, counter space - empty underneath allowing occupied feral cat traps to be put under them, a microwave - used to heat IV solution, hot socks, cabinet storage above and below counters with a double sink, a small milk bath unit/sterilizer next to the sinks, a small under cabinet fridge for some of the drugs, 1 IV rack & a full set of 4 IV bags (dogs/cats rarely get them at our clinic but they can and we do keep this); a dog room with individual stainless steel kennels, a double sink, counter space and cabinets under it all; a cat room with individual stainless steel kennels also with a double sink, counter space and cabinet storage underneath (each room w/ doors that close and some sound proofing - they aren't next to each other - cats/dogs have no access to each other); a back room that has a wash area (raised tub) for dirty pets, 3 large rolling kennels for large dogs with perforated removable floor panels, 2 commercial washers & dryers, cabinet storage, chest freezer, storage for cat traps & collapsible dog kennels if necessary; a "rabies pole"; a small office that was a break room for the techs and is now my office and a storage area with a small sink; a lobby with chairs for the clients and a receptionist desk with storage; an office for the office manager & vets/owner that closes but has a large picture window they can view from; a public restroom with 2 stalls and a separate sink; another restroom which is now a storage room and home to the Autoclave machine(sterilizes surgery instrument packs & just replaced when installed in new room - our cost was about $12,000 - we are a NON PROFIT vet clinic - that money was hard to come by but necessary!!); a small kitchen with a sink/counters, refrigerator, table & 3 chairs for eating/sitting down, a water fountain w/ purchased water by the clinic, a coffee pot (donated) and cabinets for storage; the drugs for anesthesia (regulated, licensed and tracked by bottle number and amounts used/not used & given), IV pain meds for cats; IV pain meds for dogs; noninflammatory drugs that go home with dogs (liquid form for small dogs/ pills for med/large dogs); ONLY 2 TYPES of antibiotics - IF a pet is brought in with skin issues that can be a problem at the incision site OR comes back in with the start of an infection due to wrong care; cleaning supplies for the pet, cleaning supplies for the surgery room, cleaning supplies for the other rooms... All animals go home the same day, we don't keep them overnight. We don't have the staff or really the room when back to back days of 60 animals are scheduled.

IF a person read our Admin form and our After Care Instructions - they are pretty clear in requirements and care instructions AND HOW TO CONTACT US AFTER HOURS/WEEK ENDS. Those forms are available to anyone from our website as well as presented during an appointment and release of the pet. We also separately email and/or mail them to those that request them.

So - we deal with Humane Societies, Animal Control & Rescues every day, dogs just taken "from the streets" and dogs/cats that are feral and literally "mean" & angry as well as DANGEROUS... We work with the Animal Controls in all counties whom we've received animals from. We have clients all the time, who do not follow the simple instructions that are sent home with them.

We start spaying/neutering dogs/cats at 3 months (12 weeks) of age as long as they are over 2 pounds. We do dogs and cats that are in heat EVERY DAY. We do surgeries on PREGNANT animals every day (kittens and puppies are humanely euthanized). Owner has to be informed that their pet was pregnant BECAUSE THE CARE CAN BE DIFFERENT and RECOVERY can TAKE LONGER. They do not have to know "how many babies" their pet was carrying and we don't tell UNLESS asked.

In all actuality, for our vets and with young, non-pregnant dogs and cats - spaying is a simple and pretty quick procedure HOWEVER it is still invasive surgery! For animals that have had multiple litters, or are pregnant - the surgery can take a bit longer as the uterus is larger, there are active blood vessels that bleed and have to be surgically tied off upon removal of uterus. For the 12 weeks (& longer) post birth of puppies or kittens - a "mamma" has a more fragile uterus which bleeds more OR can tear while being removed. She also has milk in the mammary glands - lots of moisture (more on that in a bit). We will not do a female at less than 12 weeks postpartum due to not having the staff or the equipment needed to deal with potential problems and the associated higher risks and YES both dogs and especially cats can get pregnant again during that time frame. A female in heat also has an enlarged uterus w/ more blood vessels in preparation for a pregnancy. These take a bit longer to do the surgery on but it most certainly isn't hours. Some of our vets DO have special considerations. One, a guy, is taller. He has larger hands - we limit how many female dogs under 20 pounds on his days. He simply can't move his hands after doing all the small work for more than a few surgeries. He is also allergic to cats (!!) - so he always either works with another vet that can do the vet exam on cats OR we on occasion schedule only dog days (one 2x in my 2 1/2 years so far). He doesn't neuter male cats (not covered in surgery). Another vet, a woman, refused to do any female animal over 9 months of age - do you know how hard it can be to schedule days of 8 female dogs & 8 female cats that are all under 9 months of age and not pregnant (on a 1 dr day)?? She thought doing those surgeries were "gross" and she returned to private vet practice where she could opt NOT to do surgeries. We do get vet students for externship (not paid) that are sometimes with us long enough to do surgeries themselves un-assisted. Those weeks are quite nice actually - and I've wished we could have rotating interns (both the vets and the techs DO NOT - those are heavy training times and sometimes seem to be longer/harder though our overall day usually ends sooner)...

Before surgery, dogs are given medication that cause them to evacuate their bowels, bladders and stomachs. For the folks that forget and feed their animals breakfast or left food out all night for them - it's *miserable for the dogs* and the TECHS and the VOLUNTEERS. YES, we then go thru and CLEAN ALL OF THE KENNELS. With some that can be done while they are still in the kennel (meaning that pet will be cleaner since the drugs and evacuating also make them sleepy and want to lay down) and w/ others we have to wait until they get pulled out for prep/surgery. Many of these dogs have never been anywhere or been socialized and the stress sometimes causes explosive diarrhea as well... I have actually held many a dog over the trash can - making his/her kennel more pleasant for both them and us!! Female dogs then have their bladders completely drained during prep (males don't). Cats don't get meds to evacuate everything and in fact, if they get sick, they may not have surgery. We have had owners opt not to do surgery if they know that their animal has eaten (better - that way they don't aspirate food particles into their lungs while intubated). Others just don't seem to understand or to care ("O, but he always gets so upset when he doesn't get his morning chow-chow").

The sutures used by our vet clinic ARE water soluble - meaning that the body will absorb it (in 99.99 % of spays/neuters, we will never see the animal again). The more moisture in the areas due to pregnancy, in heat, or nursing OR obesity - the faster the sutures will dissolve. So, some animals (not all) will have staples utilized on the outside of an incision to keep it closed longer to facilitate healing. That animal should go home with an e-collar to prevent them from reaching/pulling out & potentially ingesting the staples. They are not required to get one from us, but we do highly recommend that they do. Ours are less cost than the ones at Tractor Supply, Pet Smart, Pet Sense & Pet Co - all local. The staples need to be pulled between 10-14 days after surgery and we do that service for no charge.

No one is required to purchase/take home an e-collar but I can tell you thru experience that it is both a great savings and a huge problem! My own animals have hated them. I have personally found that the animals that "flip out" the worst, are also the ones who will be the most susceptible to causing an infection at the incision site due to not leaving it alone if you remove the collar. I had ONE cat that managed to get hers off and I had to take her back to the clinic BECAUSE she caused her incision to open up AND to get infected (licking/chewing at incision site in less then 48 hours after original surgery). They had to re-sedate her ($25 - did not have to intubate her or do a full surgery) in order to lay her back out flat and CLEAN UP/cut off the infected tissue and then to close and re-suture it. I then purchased the antibiotics recommended ($20) and went home to treat her - NOT FUN and I have had animals for MANY YEARS. Not a full week later - I had to take her back AGAIN. They(the vet clinic and 2 vets that worked on her) did NOTHING WRONG OR DIFFERENT from any other client. It was just this particular cat (kitten @ 4 months of age)! The 2nd time to return, she was a sullen little witch - growling, hissing and suddenly OUT (another $25). This time, she left her collar alone, she left the incision alone and it healed! Let me tell you, horses are so much easier to treat for injuries or after surgery!

Animals 7 yrs of age and older are considered geriatric and we highly recommend that they go to a REGULAR vet HOSPITAL for a blood work up and heart check up to make sure that they will be OK with anesthesia and will WAKE UP from surgery (and just that can run into $200 or more especially the older the animal is. It cost me $300 to have a 7 yr old mini Aussie rescued from a puppy mill checked at a different vet hospital only to find out they didn't feel that she was anywhere close to 7 yrs of age, however, she had had lots of litters/puppies and her poor body and mammary area showed it. Blood work and heart checkup GREAT but costly to me.). The owners are not required to do that, however they will then sign a pretty lengthy surgical waiver - waiving our responsibility should anything go wrong. Our vets still have the final say as to whether they will do a surgery or not - and there are days where there may be 60 animals there but only 50 have surgery after being checked in and put in it's individual kennel. The reasons are many - too thin, too obese, coughing/runny nose/eyes (upper respiratory infection is dangerous in surgery when animal is intubated and on oxygen), severe skin issues - some of which can denote internal issues, a heart murmur on a young animal, a raised temp or pulse that doesn't return to normal sometimes due just to stress caused by coming into the clinic. An animal with a known problem with hips/back (needs to have a full exam by hospital QUALIFIED to do so before our vets will do that surgery) usually will not be done. All animals are on their backs during surgery. IF a dog has been known to have Parvo and owner states that - we turn them away until they have documented proof from a REGULAR VET HOSPITAL that the animal is all clear and has been for the required period. Last year, we had a responsible owner/breeder call us and let us know that one of their pups, a sibling of one they'd just had spayed with us the week previous had developed Parvo. That was great for us but also a NIGHTMARE as we shut down for a length of time - I believe we were closed for 2 weeks (8 days of surgeries had to be rescheduled - w/ screaming/crying owners wanting to know why, which we could not discuss).

SO... there is both a lot and not much to a pet's spay or neuter surgery. As I get older, and have been around many animals, I now know that sometimes there can be a pinched nerve that doesn't show up in a brief exam before a surgery BUT may have been there before hand. When an animal is laid flat on it's back for surgery, things can get pinched. BUT during a spay or neuter surgery, our vets are nowhere near the spine or neck while the dog is on the surgery table. The vets see very little of the animal - as the tech has the animal already hooked up to oxygen and draped. The only parts showing are the small area of abdomen on a female and the scrotal area of the male. The dog is lifted by techs to the prep table, to the surgery table and from surgery to kennel for recovery. Honestly, the dog is carried in such a way as to protect the cleaned area before surgery and to protect the clean but sutured area after - on the padding and towels that go thru surgery with him/her. The dog is rolled over it's belly during the recovery IF the towels need to be changed (larger dogs sometimes have more to evacuate - so towels replaced). The dog is also rolled over it's belly if he/she needs more stimulation to wake up. We do not want him/her on their back at this time. The intubation tube isn't removed until the dog is awake and able to swallow. NO ONE is allowed to leave that dog while it is recovering and is still intubated.

Also - we don't keep the animals overnight - or for 2-3 days. They go home just hours after their surgeries and in the paperwork it states that the owners pet may still be groggy from the drugs. Some dogs and cats cry, whine, bark, yip, hiccup, meow, howl, sing, screech, scrabble their legs, lean on walls, kennel sides, weave back and forth while walking out, or refuse to get up and move at all - all uncontrollably as they are coming out of anesthesia. Some will become growly/bitey. Of course, on some the incision site is tender but on some they seem to become tender all over when they've had anesthesia and will cry/yip or try to actually bite (especially smaller dogs) when touched (both male & female). WE DO suggest that the animal be kept quiet, not be bothered much (especially by children) but in the case of dogs that they be walked on a leash (o, but he's not leash trained) only and encouraged to walk (quietly) and every so often so that they work the drugs out of their systems. Some may not want to eat, others will want to and then will be sick. We have regular returning clients (mostly rescuers) that board their animals with a boarding place for at least 48 hours after surgery and let them deal with the after affects, proper kennels/crates and the meds. Then you have the opposite - a young dog has just had the "thing" removed that caused "misery" - and she's on an noninflammatory so she FEELS GOOD. "It's soooo cruel to keep her crated but now she has this huge opening and swelling in her belly...". The incision site is not to be covered but must be kept dry - no licking, chewing, scratching by pet, no cleaning with a cloth or ointment applied (if the dog is "leaking", bleeding or serum or otherwise - we want to know about it). No bathing, swimming or leaving out in the rain or right now, snow! If the dog feels good and runs, jumps, jumps up on furniture (bed, car) or plays with other dogs - internal sutures are liable to become irritated and they may develop localized swelling - often looks like a golf ball or marble. They can be brought in and the swelling will/can be drained in minutes. If dog really "ugly", may need to be re-sedated ($25), otherwise 2 techs and a vet can usually take care of it. Or the owner can leave it alone and it will eventually be absorbed by the body...

**********

I've written a lot and completely forgot a couple of things I wanted to point out. GEEZE. So - well, it might be self explanatory? That's how our clinic does things. I have participated in "field surgeries" - with horses - done outside at owners' property and at the vet clinic. I've seen eyes removed, helped remove 2, watched while my 2 week old filly's eye was saved, helped in a pony necropsy, participated in all portions of horse AI, foaled out mares (never my ponies - always miss those - sometimes by just minutes), moved all the portable xray equipment around - setting up the film where vet wanted it while owner held horse and vet took pics; banded calves, goats and cats (the vet didn't OK the cat), under 2 different vets, i've done some of the suturing on horses (wouldn't be done today w/ any of the vets I have)... I've been in one vet hospital that had some different equipment (meant for larger livestock) and was allowed to view the surgery on my shetland stallions' hoof/leg there. I've *not been* in a small animal vet HOSPITAL that has extra techs, separate anesthesiologist, or different tools available for any possible emergency during surgery. I do know that several of the Vet Hospitals cost more here because they automatically keep the dog or cat for up to 3 days - usually the time they will get their meds (& their services are billed up front).

Ah - I remember some more. I can't say to Vet school in other states or in other countries. But over the years of working for and with several vets and now with dealing directly with vet students AND participating in "gelding parties" done by VET STUDENTS in their 4th year of school (ONLY), I can say this. There is a lot to know about all animals. They are all different - even breeds w/i the same species can be different. According to vet students here in NC, the vet school covers a little about a lot of different subjects and in a very short amount of time. 4 years is never enough, then grad school - and then the student is "thrown out" into the working world to sink or swim as a vet. Some have had practice and experience with different animals before school, some haven't. Some have dealt with small animals, or birds or reptiles but don't know the first thing about dealing with livestock or growling BIG dogs. They can choose to stay and study more in depth in one particular subject.

In speaking with the vets in our clinic (in the last 2 1/2 years I've met/worked with 7 or 8 different small animal vets & only 2 of those have EVER been around horses and only 1 of those around minis/Shetlands) - just because the person is a vet doesn't mean they can deal with all animals. I have gone to vets that specialize in reproduction IN 1 SPECIES ONLY and the first vet here in NC had a vet working for her that specialized in leg injuries in just horses.

I also remember being a "guinee pig" in all things mini sized and did not understand what the vet, at the time, didn't tell me. THAT SHE DID"T HAVE THE EQUIPMENT or THE KNOWLEDGE OF HOW TO SAVE THE COLT I WANTED TO SAVE. I walked into the clinic (I leased my acreage then from the vet clinic and this was 1 1/2 years after I'd moved in), to find her simply BAWLING her eyes out. I had no idea what was wrong or how to deal with that and it was EMBARRASSING for both of us on several levels. We got thru it and when she explained what part of the problem was (no tubing small enough to got thru his teeny little nostril and just born throat into his stomach), I haltingly asked if tubing from a fish tank would work? Not knowing i only needed a 12" piece, I'd bought like a 6' coil of the stuff for our new fish tank and had lots left over! It was a long, long nite - but my vet then learned I was willing to participate in doing procedures w/ my own ponies and to what lengths I would go to "make it happen". I am and probably always will be working on a budget - but then I also had 3 small girl children at home, hubby overseas and I was on my own. The 3 girls that night were sleeping in the truck with the air conditioning on, cuz it was around 100* at 2 am... The vet also learned that I was willing and able to try unconventional things and that sometimes I had supplies on hand that would work for ... things! That colt made it - getting both a blood plasma transfusion and a stomach tubing of colostrum (provided from one of my own heavily milking mares months earlier and in the Vet Clinics freezer for anybody to use as needed). The mare was given a shot that brought her into milk - and w/i 2 days was a "regular milk cow" that was always dripping!

*******

If you've made it this far, I hope you understand we all rant and rave and want to "kill" someone or other we've worked with, dealt with or worked for. But be careful what is said and how it is said w/o understanding facts first of what and how things are done, can be done and/or *were done.*


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## rabbitsfizz (Feb 3, 2016)

My Vet is the Royal Veterinary College, which is just at the back of me. I have a large van I use for transporting my horses, a lot of people in the UK do this, it is, I feel, safer than a trailer (which I also have) To have a colt castrated in the "cheap week" is £100 ($AUS 205, $US 145 ) and that includes a three day stay to make sure all is well. It is all part of the final examinations for the students, and they are closely supervised. I am pretty sure if you were to approach them with post dated cheques for the whole amount they would work with you- it is more than possible that your Vet College would do the same. I would be putting the castration before everything else, personally. Another alternative, short term. would be to find your two colts somewhere to live off the property, or they will be fence breaking and getting to the mares. Trust me on this, colts of this age are an absolute pain in the neck and they are not like a mature stallion, who has the sense to wait. They will crash through any sort of barrier listening to nothing except their hormones. This will result in more Vet's bills! Good luck, I do hope everything works out for you.


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