# Pony Critique...



## Bonny (Jul 16, 2009)

I may be keeping him....






His owners lost their horse fence last October during the hurricane. He has been living at a friends house ever since. Wife doesnt want him. So I am thinking of taking him in.

Problem is he is young, and hardly worked with. He will lead and I now have him backing up. He has some minor boundary issues but not horrible considering he lack or ground work. He is not yet gelded, that will help.

Over all He is about 40 inches Tall give or take a few inches. If I keep him I would like to break him to the cart.

But before I decide for sure, I would like to have a confo critique done, best as possible with the limited pic.

Thanks!


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## Bonny (Jul 16, 2009)

Guess a picture would help.


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## muffntuf (Jul 16, 2009)

Hi Bonnie,

Would love to know if he is reg'd and his name, sire name and dam name.

Critique from the pic:

First the disclaimer - this is from one pic, so one angle, etc.

He is a nice bay. Needs a little weight. Looks like he might be foundation. If he is reg'd check to see if he has a foundation seal. Hard to tell on neck and head for confirmation. But overall, he's a decent looking shetland.

How old is he?


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## Bonny (Jul 16, 2009)

Right now I know little about him. He was staying at my GF's house, she is friends with the owners. She was at his house since last October. I will try to find out his paperwork for you. I know he is reg.

He does need a little weight. I brought him to my home about a week and a half ago , as my GF got an Appy Stallion and couldnt keep them in the same pasture, obviously.

So he is in a separate pen at my house right now. I will clean him up, ask for help and get better confo pics.

I will cut a bridal path to make him a little more clear. LOL. Thanks for the *critique* so far. I hope with some work he will turn out to be a nice well mannered boy.


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## kaykay (Jul 16, 2009)

I agree he needs some weight for sure. How old is he??

I do see his front feet are "10 and 2" which is not good but maybe its just a bad time to take the picture.

For sure repost when you cut a bridle path and can stand him square.

I love solid bays


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## Bonny (Jul 16, 2009)

Thanks Yall, not sure how old he is I will ask. He is a real toot and getting him to stand square is very difficult right now. He was more interested in all the horses in the neighborhood than getting his pic taken.

So I have a few more lousy pics for yall to critique. When he is more mannered I will try to get more.





Kay, I did attempt to take a pic of his legs when he was square the front are straight the back toe out a tad. Front look very nice actually. (except in all the pics I take lol)

Sorry these prolly wont help much


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## kaykay (Jul 16, 2009)

Well hes standing in grass so hard to know

Its really hard to critique a horse that is underweight as a lot could change once he gains weight.

I bet he pays attention much better once hes gelded!


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## muffntuf (Jul 16, 2009)

I was wondering if he was still a stud as his neck is a little thick. Thanks for posting more pics, but honestly we need right, left, front and rear, preferrably squared or parked out a bit.

He does look foundation. But as Kay says, if he gains a bit of weight, his neck will change shape, add in some filling to his hip bones. Some coniditioning would suck up his tummy and fill in his top line. THEN I would like to see this pony! Looks like he is very animated and can move decently.


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## Bonny (Jul 16, 2009)

Thanks Yall , I will get some more weight on him work on his manners and take some more pics.

Could yall please explain the term foundation to me?


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## kaykay (Jul 17, 2009)

Shetland ponies have the following divisions

Foundation

Classic

Modern Pleasure

Modern

ASPR

NSPR

Foundation

These

ponies are more conservative in type then a

classic pony. They are heavier boned and not as

refined in type as a Classic pony. Registration

certificates must have the Foundation seal.

Foundation ponies have a show height limit of

42" and are the results of breeding division A to

Division A for at least 4 generations

In general these ponies are a smaller heavier

boned then a classic pony and have a nice

smooth ground covering way of going. No

extreme in movement is allowed.

The difference between Foundation and Classic

can sometimes be very hard to pick out. Also

keep in mind a pony can be Foundation and

show Classic. Ponies show according to TYPE.

They do not always show according to papers.

If a show does not offer Foundation Classes (and

this happens a lot) you can enter classic. If a

show offers foundation halter but no foundation

color class you can enter both Classic Color and

Foundation Halter

Many of the ASPC/AMHR registered horses

have the foundation seal as they were bred from

small ponies with no out crosses.


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## Bonny (Jul 17, 2009)

Thanks Kay! I appreciate the info.


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## MiLo Minis (Jul 21, 2009)

I am going to disagree here and say that conformation is bone structure and bone structure is very easy to see on a horse that is not in the best flesh and will not change with added weight. Although it is much easier to judge conformation correctly on a horse that is standing with at least one front and one back leg square you can see a lot in these photos.

Overall I see a horse that is in pasture condition, in that, to be a show horse he would need more weight and muscling, but he is not in poor condition as evidenced by his healthy, shiny coat, bright eyes, and alert expression.

He has a rather plain, coarse head but not ugly at all. Nice little alert ears, soft kind expression. His neck is ewed in that it bulges out at the bottom and dips at the top along the mane but it ties in fairly high on his chest and his throatlatch is clean. It is a decent length, not overly long or short, so that he will be able to carry himself well as seen in the picture of him moving. His shoulder is long and steep and that combined with his good length and open angle of humerus will give him a long, higher stride. He is a bit long through the back. His hip angle doesn't match that of his shoulder being a little more correct. His hocks line up with the point of his buttocks putting him under himself correctly. His legs appear decently conformed and straight. All horse's toe out slightly on the back or else they would interfere with themselves when moving. He has a decent length of cannon on front and back. Good flat knees and fairly strong hocks. Nice length and angle of pastern matching that of his hooves.

In conclusion I would say this horse would make a very decent performance gelding but not a halter horse.


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## muffntuf (Jul 21, 2009)

Well Milo Minis

Being a pony person, I will disagree with you. Pony needs some weight, its a whole different story when top line is filled in and hips have a bit over them. With top line and hips, comes the little bit he needs to make his neck look good.

Right now he does look a little thin and no condition. Some bridle path trimming and forelock trimming will reveal a whole different pony than the pic you see.

He's a pretty smart looking boy. Reminds me of my stallion, who right now, you would say was in pasture condition. But actually is a top notch pony.


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## Jill (Jul 21, 2009)

I'm a horse person and a mini person. Not "yet" a pony person -- but conformation is conformation.

To me, he looks like a sweet boy and he has beautiful color.

Conformationally, he is weak in the hind end / goose rumped, appears to toe out and is very ewe-necked. While weight will improve his appearance, it will not alter these things which have to do with conformation, not body condition.

Just because he is not a halter type horse doesn't mean he isn't special and can't do things you may have planned for him, but I am not one who believes "weight changes conformation" as has been rumored here before.


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## Bonny (Jul 21, 2009)

Thanks yall,

Can yall please explain ewe necked? I have seen severly ewe necked horses, but he doesnt appear to be like the ones I have seen, there fore I dont see it...

The sad thing is now I think his owners will be keeping him. And he will continue to be just a pasture pony.

Also can you critique a young pony at 6 months old? I know that horses can grow through gawky stages so wondering if you can tell from a young pony what his conformation should ultimately turn out into?


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## Jill (Jul 21, 2009)

Bonny ---

Here is a link that goes over some basics on conformation and on page 4, it illustrates ewe neck with sketches:

http://imsonline.tamu.edu/Courses/Samples/...ocs/8893BST.pdf

I'm sorry he's not getting to come home with you.

Jill


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## Bonny (Jul 21, 2009)

Jill thanks Its hard I am still learning.

I did take a quick pic of Bonny if yall will critique her from this pic, she was turning towards me so her front isnt square.

And she is 4 month out of foaling so she is not back to condition yet.






Thanks yall this helps me learn so much


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## muffntuf (Jul 21, 2009)

I will agree confirmation is confirmation - but in the pony world, its a little different.

Quite a few pony bloodlines will have what looks like a ewe neck when they are lacking weight in the proper places. Actually it is the hinge that you find lacking in miniatures and stock type horses. The ewe neck will go away with some added weight and conditioning.

This hinge allows the pony to pick and tuck its head in well while driving.

This is one of my boys:











Without the weight on him, he would look like Bonny's boy.

This is a filly, who is a bit underweight. You can see the hinge (or ewe type effect) she is in right now. But today, you can't see the pronounced ewe neck.






And finally here is another filly, missing a lot of weight - you can see the hinge (ewe neck) very pronounced her.






This is her today:


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## Bonny (Jul 21, 2009)

Thank you, that makes a lot of sense to me






Your ponies are gorgeous MuffnTuf





Can I ask about the dark filly, with the white socks, is it her age or weight making her look so bum high?

I ask because my 6 month old pony has a bit of bum highness and an ewe effect on the neck. The weight issue cleared up the ewe neck as he is still trying to put weight back on from that bout last week. His Mom was a paint horse so he may also get that from the pony and stock horse side. plus arent most stock horses a bit bum high also?


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## disneyhorse (Jul 21, 2009)

I am one who believes that weight is NOT conformation. A horse's conformation comes from it's bone structure, and the muscle mass/ fat on top only enhances the conformation and can help hide conformational flaws.

I know what the "hinge" that muffntuff is speaking of... many of the hackney bred Modern Shetlands do have this valuable "hinge." The hinge is a dip or flat spot right in front of the withers. This allows the pony, who is required to carry their necks straight up and fold their heads inward... to have a "place" to put the top part along the crest of the neck. That ligament has to go somewhere.

However, there is a difference between a pony with a ewe neck and a pony with a "hinge" to its neck. They are different parts of the pony.

The pony that this critique refers to, does seem to have a ewe neck. The top crest is mostly missing, and the bottom part of the neck along the throat bulges outward greatly. This is also sometimes called an "upside down" neck, because generally horses should have a lot more muscle mass along the top of the neck than the bottom.

This conformational flaw can be REDUCED by lots of work (bitting up the horse to build muscle along the top) and some weight (building fat along the top of the neck) but NATURE will have this horse tend towards being heavier along the bottom of the neck.

Of course ANY horse, not just ponies, can look better when they are in peak condition/weight. They will have more presence, and their body will have a bloom on it. However, it won't necessarily make a cowhocked horse straight, a gooserumped horse get a high tail set, a ewe necked horse looking like an Andalusian, or a straight shoulder more sloped.

I think the original horse has a promising career ahead of him as a performance gelding, or even a non-breed-show halter horse, he has a kind look to his eye and has a lot of appeal to his build and appearance.

Andrea


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## Bonny (Jul 21, 2009)

Can you please post photos of the difference in a hinge and an ewe?

obvious difference for my untrained eye...


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## muffntuf (Jul 21, 2009)

The black filly with 4 whites was a long yearling and yes in a growth stage where her butt is up in the air. Now she has a nice topline and for the division she would show in, just right. She would show in the MP division and will make a great driving pony. She would not be able to show effectively in halter in the classic or foundation divisions.


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## Bonny (Jul 21, 2009)

Thats what I thought, she is a beautiful mare.

I have watched my colt grow through high bum stages then he seems to catch up again, its rather gawky lol.

Want to take a critique of Bonny?


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## MiLo Minis (Jul 22, 2009)

I think if you take a careful look at Bonny's photos of the pony she was referring to and the pony Muffntuff is referring to you will see a perfect example of the difference between a "hinge" and a "ewe".

A horse with a ewe neck has a downward curving, rather than upward arcing, spinal column in the neck. I don't see that in Muffntuff's examples although a bit in her stallion but it is being masked somewhat by his heavy neck and the muscling on top.

There is nothing _wrong_ with a horse in pasture condition. All my horses that aren't showing are in pasture shape. They are healthy and fit but not ready to step into a show ring. Their conformation is every bit as good as it would be if they were brought into show shape as most of them have been at some point in their life.

I am, I guess what you would call, an equine person, having had and loved plenty of all types of equines throughout my life, and conformation has always been conformation to me. I look for the same things in all equines. There are certain conformational faults that enhance performance and depending on what you are asking of your equine some of these faults may be more acceptable than others. I don't necessarily look for the same things in a horse I am going to drive or show at halter or ride on a hunter course or take on an endurance ride. There are even differences between some of the horses I take driving into the breed show ring or out on a CDE course although that tends to be more personality-wise.


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## kaykay (Jul 22, 2009)

Just to clarify I never said weight CHANGES conformation but I do feel its not fair to judge an underweight horse or judge a horse from such bad pictures. I could show before and after pictures all day long and some would think it was a different horse. Not saying he is horribly thin but definitely needs a few pounds put on. A few years back I brought home a very very thin stallion and people just laughed and said I had lost my mind. They werent laughing anymore when I got weight on him and hit the show circuit


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## ~Lisa~ (Jul 30, 2009)

muffntuf said:


> I will agree confirmation is confirmation - but in the pony world, its a little different.



LOL I am sorry I have never heard any vet or any book or any true conformation expert say Conformation is conformation with the exception of ponies.





Ponies are no different then any other breed in the world. Fat and muscle will not change structure- it may hide things, conditioning certain areas may mask things but it does not change things.

I to agree that the pony of the OP is weak in the hind end and has a ewe neck weight is not going to change that nor do I think the pony is very thin or has a poor body score. He could use a bit of bulking up and muscle but again not going to change the angle of his croup.

Many top show horses are not truly top examples of the breed (and yes this holds true for many top ponies as well they again are no different then any other equine) A good handler knows how to condition a pony/horse to hide its flaws and accentuate it's good points and then knows how to set them up to do the same thing.

All of that said I think you have a pretty cute little pony to enjoy so whatever the crituques are just have fun with him


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