# Driving Bit Question



## Becky Horat (Nov 25, 2011)

Need suggestions on what type of bit to try. Driving our 12yr mare in a Butterfly Bit with French Link mouth piece. At times, she seems like she could use something with a little more "whoa." I currently have reins in the snaffle rings. I did try adding curb strap and put the reins in the lower ring of bit. She didn't seem to like that.....I only worked her once in it hoping she'd accept it. Not sure what to try next....different mouth piece or

curb type action?


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## shelterwood (Nov 26, 2011)

Hi Becky,

I'm no bit expert, but one thing that comes to mind when you describe "needing more whoa" is the question of how long your mare has been driving. I do know, with my mares that are young and green, both at times feel "heavy" in my hands as they learn to balance the load of me and the cart. I don't know if you are experiencing more of a running through the bit feeling when asking for stops, but if its more general heaviness on the bit, sometimes more conditioning and practice between the shafts helps, at least it has for my older mare, who has lightened up considerably.

Have you established a solid whoa on long lines and general ground work?

Also, it seems one session with the curb action is not long enough to determine if she likes this bit. Adding curb action changes everything the horse is feeling in its mouth, and this takes time and work on your part to ensure the horse understands the new way of communicating. I have to say I have had good luck with simple French link snaffles with my girls, who have small mouths with low ceilings, so to speak!

Good luck! I'm sure some more experienced people will have better thoughts!!

Katie


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 26, 2011)

How many rings are on your butterfly? If you skipped a ring and went to the bottom I would try lifting it back up to the middle ring. There is quite a difference in feel from a snaffle french link to a curbed french link. Once is not really enough for her to develop a feel for the bit and you to develop a feel for it also.

I agree with Katie re training for a good whoa. How experienced is your horse? Work on long lines doesn't really mimic work in the cart as the horse's balance is not affected nearly as much as when it is in the cart. You can establish a good whoa there but once you put the horse in the shafts you need to rebuild it all again.

If it is a simple matter that your mare gets excited and strong then dropping the reins on the butterfly and using the curb chain should help once she is more used to the curb action.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 26, 2011)

Yes, going back to ground work always helps, give a different perspective on things. Also, when you are asking for a whoa, do you ask for a couple of half-halts beforehand? If not, give that a try. Or, a half-halt every now and then, with no whoa afterwards might help as well, as this will keep her on her toes and her mind on you. It is like tapping her on the shoulder and saying "hey". LOL!


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## Becky Horat (Nov 26, 2011)

She's 12yrs. and had many years of driving training and showing. She's been sitting for several years. We just bought her 2 months ago. We've done/doing lots of ground driving and working on a more relaxed headset and making progress. I prefer the snaffle type bits and am using this for all her arena and ground driving. She is very relaxed and goes well out of the arena/trails....but, she's just a little more "up" for her....nothing too silly. This is where I've noticed her pushing through my reins a little. She just once "shyed" at a dog rustling in bushes while working in friend's arena and she jumped to the side and bolted a few strides. She came right back down and was fine. This is first time she's startled at anything and seems pretty "solid" for the most part. I'm just wanting a little more control in these situations...while driving outside....just in case needed. She is fairly light and responsive for the most part....has one issue that we're working through...When asking to walk-off or move into a trot, she gives a little hop with her front end while flipping head out. She did this quite a bit in beginning and we're making improvements with lots of ground driving, flexing, etc. I don't drive with any side checks/over checks. My current bit, only has 2 rings on check piece. My question is when using a curb action, what is best mouth piece: broken or solid?? Some have suggested the broken mouth piece isn't good while adding curb strap. I've ridden/trained big horses for many years and have mainly used broken mouth even with small curb. All my horses are very light/soft mouth....and I'm hoping to get there with this one. I've also been looking at the Myler bits? Just not sure where to go first. I really don't want to lose the lateral control that a snaffle type bit gives. Thanks for all your input. I have a whole tack room full of bits....of course they're WAY too big....so now need to start a Mini collection.


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## Becky Horat (Nov 26, 2011)

I should ad that I do a LOT of work on halts/standing and she's pretty good. Not quite as consistant while driving down the road, but is getting much better. She's not a nervous/anxious type horse at all, but I believe most all of her training and driving has been arena work. We are also doing lots of de-sensitizing...and she's really pretty good. She's not an overly heavy mouthed horse either.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 26, 2011)

From what I read, she isn't a "bad" horse, just a fresh one...so I wouldn't suggest going with "more" bit, but using the one you have, even in the snaffle position, just a little differently. (You should also have a chain on that bit, even when using the snaffle position.)

That little hop she is giving you when asked to move on...ignore it and move out...this is common with an out of shape horse, especially a mini, as it is HARD for them to get that cart, and you...moving. I had a bit of a "problem" with that last spring with my green mare, and she soon stopped once she was in more fit condition. She would try to bump up into a canter when asked to stretch into a lengthened trot. I would not allow it, (simply "closed" my hands) yet made no big deal out of it, and as she fitted-up, it became less of a deal, until she stopped altogether.

Lots of half-halts, serpentines, and throw some cones or poles in your driving ring/area, and concentrate on them, I bet in no time you will notice her responsiveness has increased, as well as her silliness tempering down.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 26, 2011)

I have to say, a bit with a broken mouthpiece is not, by definition, a curb, and can only at best be a "mongrel" bit.

A curb it has a bar mouth and a curb action, a snaffle bit has a ring side of some sort and often but not always a broken mouthpiece. Using a curb sided bit with a broken mouthpiece makes it a lot more severe.

I would suggest getting the same sort of bit with a bar mouth piece and seeing if she goes into it more readily. The butterfly is my bit of choice for a slightly stronger horse but I would never consider using one with a curb cheek on it- try a bar mouthpiece, I think you will be pleased with the result.


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## Becky Horat (Nov 26, 2011)

*I would suggest getting the same sort of bit with a bar mouth piece and seeing if she goes into it more readily. The butterfly is my bit of choice for a slightly stronger horse but I would never consider using one with a curb cheek on it- try a bar mouthpiece, I think you will be pleased with the result*.

So would you use a mullen type mouth piece with the butterfly bit? Straight bar or low port?? Or go to a Liverpool type? This was my biggest question, I guess. I will try more serpentine and cone work with her. And that makes me feel better about her little "hop." I have been ignoring it and also find that while doing lots of bending exercises while ground driving, seems to help this. Someone mentioned it was because she had been driven in a side/over-check?? Haven't thought of that. Thanks for all the help..it gives me a direction to try. I will most likely continue and go back to my current bit, I really like it. But, would like option of a little more control when needed.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 27, 2011)

You do not need to go to a Liverpool unless you want to- I have become so accustomed to snaffle sides now that Liverpool's look too "dressy" but they are just a bit, and a useful one at that!

I would definitely go for a Mullen or straight mouthed butterfly (mine is straight mouthed) I would never use a broken mouthed bit that had curb cheeks- they really are quite severe. You need to hold it in your closed fist, rig the curbchain round the bottom of your hand and get someone else to pull on the reins then you will feel exactly where the pieces of the bit go in the horses mouth and you will see what I mean.

Curb bits were never meant to have broken mouthpieces.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 27, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> You do not need to go to a Liverpool unless you want to- I have become so accustomed to snaffle sides now that Liverpool's look too "dressy" but they are just a bit, and a useful one at that!
> 
> I would definitely go for a Mullen or straight mouthed butterfly (mine is straight mouthed) I would never use a broken mouthed bit that had curb cheeks- they really are quite severe. You need to hold it in your closed fist, rig the curbchain round the bottom of your hand and get someone else to pull on the reins then you will feel exactly where the pieces of the bit go in the horses mouth and you will see what I mean.
> 
> Curb bits were never meant to have broken mouthpieces.


Hi, Just trying to educate myself on some bit lingo. Can you tell or show me what you mean by "curb cheeks"... I use straight mouth pieces on my horses, but my trainer has recently started chatting bits with me, she is thinking about changing up what we are using, but we have not done any bit shopping as yet. She mentioned a butterfly. there are soooo many and so many different styles. I guess I am just looking for a photo of some sorts for education as to what experienced driving folks like best. I know in my tack pile I have two donated bits .. I think one is a liverpool and the other is a butterfly just by what they look like. The butterfly has a curb chain hanging but the side pieces are fixed and do not swivel. The one I think is a liverpool has side pieces that do not swivel and have a nut holding on the mouthpiece to the cheek piece... sorry, newbie descriptions here. Currently my boy works in a straight mouthpiece, with half cheeks? He does have a decent halt and stand so far with this bit, but once in a blue moon he can get a little strong to hold. We only do trail driving. On the little strong.. he just gets a bit frisky and happy and sometimes trys to pick the pace he chooses on trails he is familiar with. Half halts do bring him down nicely and he does stop and stand when I ask. My trainer is just thinking about different bit choices, but hasn't asked me to shop for a new one.

Anyway... just fishing for more bit education from the mini driving folks on my own so when she chats bits with me, I have a visual in my brain as to what others are using and think. I can be a bit of a "bit collector". thanks in advance...






PS, if it would help, I can probably get somebody to post some photos of what I have for the forum to critique the types.


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## Becky Horat (Nov 27, 2011)

Good idea on putting the bit in a closed fist to get an idea what the horse feels.....not sure why I've never thought of that before, duh. I think I will try staying with the butterfly bit and finding a "non-broken" mouth piece to try. I need to start building a selection of Mini and also pony bits in my tackroom so have some to try. You have given me some great ideas & suggestions. Hate to just start buying bits that don't work....although I know what works for one horse, another horse may not like. It's nice to see what others are using. Thank you!!


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2011)

Jane, it isn't the mouthpiece that makes a bit a curb - it is the method of attaching it to the bridle. A curb is hung from a fixed position on the cheek pieces where a snaffle is hung on a ring that can pivot as the reins come into play. There is nothing wrong with using a "snaffle" or broken mouthpiece on a curb as long as you are certain to use a curb chain which you should ALWAYS use with a curb bit of any type as it limits the action of the bit. As the poster's horse already works well in a broken mouthpiece and on a "snaffle" setting (not truly snaffle but less "curby") on a butterfly curb bit I wouldn't jump up to a solid mouthpiece just because she gets strong on occasion. This horse is working itself back into driving condition after being laid off for a period of time. Green and out of condition horses always tend to be strong and push through the bit particularly when stopping because they don't have the muscle in their back end to support the halt. The fact that she is "hopping" into the higher gait and sticking her nose out to balance herself tells me that she is not yet ready to get her haunches under herself to push that cart along and drive on the bit. Going to a more severe bit is not what is needed here but more schooling and exercise to build up her strength. I would suggest that ground driving is not going to help her out here other than to help bring her along in condition. Once you put her in the cart it is always a whole new ballgame because now she is not just moving herself along in self carriage but the weight of a cart that is setting her balance off. Only work in the shafts is really going to help her with this. Each work session, once she is relaxed and going forward well, should include some halts to walk, halt to trot, halt reverse and walk of trot with lots of half halts to help her balance and get her working off her back end (not too many to start or you will make her sore and resentful - gradually build her up). I think that once you get her in physically good driving condition you will find her good whoas come back. Please do your best not to inhibit her too much for the time being and allow her to move out as she is more comfortable at the stronger gait and can keep her balance better (that doesn't mean you have to let her careen out of control



). Once she has built up the muscle to carry herself and push the cart she will be more easily able to carry herself and the weight of the cart at a slower, more controlled gait. The fact that she was a breed ring driving horse has done much to escalate her fall because she has been used to driving with the support of an auxilliary rein. She likely never truly learned self carriage.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 27, 2011)

I am sorry, Lori, we shall have to agree to disagree on this one.

Traditionally a curb bit has cheek pieces, a curb chain and a straight bar mouthpiece. The broken mouth piece is a relatively new thing and has no real place as far as I can see. In a double bridle the curb lowers the head and puts pressure on the poll, the snaffle, with it's broken mouthpiece, raises the head, by using the two reins, on a ridden horse, you can keep the head where it should be.

If you do get rid of one bit you do it by using two reins, still, and a straight mouthpiece, not a broken one.

It is potentially a very severe action, to have a broken mouth piece of any kind, with curb cheeks.

Not something I would ever use, I am afraid. although I love the action of a straight mouthed butterfly, and I like the way it looks, as well.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2011)

Sorry - double post!


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2011)

I beg to differ Jane. I can think of quite a few "traditional" curb bits that have been around for ages and have a broken mouthpiece - the one that comes instantly to mind is the Tom Thumb which has been mistakenly named a snaffle but is truly a leverage, or curb, bit. And what about a pelham or kimberwick? They frequently have a broken mouthpiece. I do agree with you though that a broken mouthed curb/leverage bit can be a weapon in the wrong hands as it works like a nutcracker on the botton jaw if direct reined and it is certainly not my first choice but with good hands a broken mouth curb is an acceptable bit. I would add that an awful lot of curb bits that are a solid mouthpiece are not at all straight but have had to resort to having a port to allow tongue relief from the leverage pressure on the bottom jaw. I personally don't like a solid mouthpiece as you can't effectively work one side without affecting the other using a direct rein as in when driving. The poster has been using the butterfly broken mouth and her horse goes well in it on the "snaffle" setting where it is more or less direct reined. She may or may not realize how much harsher the bit is when set on the curb settings and that is why I say she needs to give the horse and herself a lot more time to get used to it than one use before making a decision although I still say - keep the same bitting or go to a milder bit and go back to training!!!


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## brasstackminis (Nov 27, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> I say she needs to give the horse and herself a lot more time to get used to it than one use before making a decision although I still say - keep the same bitting or go to a milder bit and go back to training!!!



I agree...I think if I were her, I would go to a plain half cheek snaffle and train, train, train! I have NEVER ridden my 16.2hh Arabian/Trekhner gelding in anything more than a loose ring snaffle, both 2 and 3 piece. I have jumped cross country, ridden out on trails, road, everything you can think of! Bigger is not better IMHO. I think if I had a "hard mouthed" horse I would go back to kindergarten in a super easy bit, forcing myself to teach my horses brain and not man-handle him with a bigger bit. If I can ride a hot-headed arab/trek gelding than we should be able to drive these minis in mild bits.

The more "severe" bits are actually not really used properly a lot. In ridden Dressage, a double bridle is earned like a shadbelly and top hat! No one ever would be respected if they wore or used these items before 4th level.



That is partly because a certian amount of training and muscle has to be built up to make these curb bits useful. The horse has to be taught and strengthened to be able to lift his back up with his head in a higher neckset. That is why, if you read the Dressage tests and what they are looking for through the levels, they start out with a lower headset..."long and low" They usually move up a level a year at the quickest. It takes awhile to train and build muscles to do the next level properly.

I suggest watching the video that I mentioned before called "If horses could speak" It shows and explains how the horse travels naturally and how we have to teach them to carry themselves differently.



OK...I digress.

I have taken lessons from some pretty big name trainers and also watched my trainer get instruction as well. In a double bridle, when used properly, the horses are usually ridden on the snaffle most of the time! The curb is an "as needed" thing. In fact I was taught to not school in the double bridle, only the snaffle! If you look at the pictures of the big driving winners and their bit positions, I have noticed that most are either in rough position or on the least curb effect on the positions. I guess all of the above rambling is just me trying to proove that the aid that you need to change in your setup is your horses training and not your bit when you are having halt issues. I guess all of those tack cleaning sessions from riding polo ponies has really gotten to me. I have never seen horses so covered with tack until I rode a polo pony! I really hate the theory of it it won't stop, add bigger/more tack insteaad of take some time for training!!! Ok, o k ...I am stepping down off of my soapbox and pushing it aside...





Karen


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 27, 2011)

brasstackminis said:


> I agree...I think if I were her, I would go to a plain half cheek snaffle and train, train, train! Karen


Unfortunately with Minis a simple broken or single jointed mouth snaffle doesn't usually work well because of the shallowness of their palates. I do like the french links or 3 piece mouths as they allow for the shallow palate.


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## rabbitsfizz (Nov 27, 2011)

The Kimblewick is supposed (as in - "the inventor of the bit intended it to have) a straight, bar mouthpiece, it was never intended to have a jointed mouthpiece and Alan Oliver would roll in his grave if he saw it with one! It was devised for his then little brother, Paul, to ride a fractious Pinto jumping pony called Kangaroo, and Paul needed double reins but was not up to using them (I have NO idea why I learned with double reins, but there you go- Paul is a good rider, but he could not manage double reins) so Alan "invented" a mongrel bit to act as a Pelham (which has never had a broken mouthpiece here in the land of it's birth) with roundings.

It was put on sale and went like hotcakes. It is named after the village (just down the road from me) where they lived at the time.

OK history lesson over.

Curb bits have straight mouthpieces- you may be used to broken mouthed curbs in America, here they are called "Cowboy Snaffles" (with respect, not derogatory usage, btw) but are not used and are not actually _allowed_ in the Pony Club or in certain levels of dressage.

Jointed mouthpieces increase the pressure on the bars due to the nutcracker action of the mouthpiece. In addition, the joint angle is altered by the shank leverage to tip the bit downward and into the tongue.

So, as to their usage, as I said, Lori, we must agree to differ.


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## Sue_C. (Nov 27, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> The Kimblewick is supposed (as in - "the inventor of the bit intended it to have) a straight, bar mouthpiece, it was never intended to have a jointed mouthpiece and Alan Oliver would roll in his grave if he saw it with one! It was devised for his then little brother, Paul, to ride a fractious Pinto jumping pony called Kangaroo, and Paul needed double reins but was not up to using them (I have NO idea why I learned with double reins, but there you go- Paul is a good rider, but he could not manage double reins) so Alan "invented" a mongrel bit to act as a Pelham (which has never had a broken mouthpiece here in the land of it's birth) with roundings.
> 
> It was put on sale and went like hotcakes. It is named after the village (just down the road from me) where they lived at the time.
> 
> ...


I personally do not like any curbed bit to have a single broken mouthpiece, but, unfortunately, many do. BUT, _ANY_ bit with a shank of any kind, is considered a curb bit, no matter what the mouthpiece is, straight, mullen, french link or whatever. As for the UK not having broken-mouthed shanked bits, they do...I have seen them both Kimberwick/Kimblewick, and Pelhams with single-broken mouthpieces in tack shops there as well.


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## Becky Horat (Nov 28, 2011)

Again, I appreciate all the bit suggestions and like to see what different types you like or dislike. Which is what I was mainly trying to find out. I guess I should ad,this little mare is not at all "hard mouthed" and I'm not looking for a quick fix to by pass good basic training. My main bits have always been broken mouthpiece/snaffle type...this is why I'm looking to see what other types others like besides this class of bits. I still ride most of my big horses in these bits even in their old age. I am very light handed and all my horses are super light. I have a pony that we are just starting and have been doing lots of ground driving/training, etc. She is very light and responsive and is still very green. This is how most of our horses are....because I'm the one starting them and have never created anything but a nice mouth. So, with this older Mini with unknown history to me, besides competing in AMHA Driving in her younger days, I'm having to retrain (or just figure her out). Although we've made big improvements and will continue a lot of ground work, etc....she still just isn't how I want her to be....I know time will continue to help....so looking to try something she may be more comfortable in?? My biggest concern isn't a "harsher" bit, but something with enough control just while riding outside on the trails (if needed). She's not nervous, or excited or uncontrollable......just not as responsive and in this area and safety is our most important issue. And I'm aware that a bit change may not help either, at this point. We've had a run-away situation before (different horse) and I know it had nothing to do with what bit she had on and she had a really nice mouth, etc. My plan is with re-training, this little horse will be using a broken mouthpiece successfully anywhere......just my bit of preference "so far." But, I'm always open to different types of anything, if it works....within reason of course. And what one trainer/rider finds successful with most of their horses, will usually have one in the barn that prefers something different. Choosing bits takes a lot of studying & research. Wish I had $ to buy a large choice to try out.....just now working on building my "mini" collection. One other thing to mention. Her little "hopping" isn't limited to while hooked to the cart. She does this while ground driving too. I can see where this is most likely coming from her being out of shape and "pulling" weight again. But, she still needs to move more into the bit than above it in these situations. For the most part, I'm ignoring it....trying to work on the cause of it and she is much better. It will take time on both of our parts. She is a very level headed mare and am enjoying her so much. We are very lucky to have found her.


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## brasstackminis (Nov 28, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> Unfortunately with Minis a simple broken or single jointed mouth snaffle doesn't usually work well because of the shallowness of their palates. I do like the french links or 3 piece mouths as they allow for the shallow palate.


I was not mentioning the 3 piece part here (simple snaffle to me includes this) just because I was on a less is more trip, and I think of the french link as a differnt fit but not really a more or less severe bit than a regular 2 piece snaffle, providing that all fits well.

My shetland is going in a 3 piece half cheek snaffle. I tried a straight mullen mouth and regular 2 piece snaffle and he seemed to go best in this bit.

My Arab cross riding gelding was going in a 2 piece loose ring snaffle and I bought him a Herm Springer 3 piece loose ring thinking he would be better in it. I mean the stupid KK bit cost close to $200 so he SHOULD like it better right?




I mean arabian...smaller mouth, pallet fit, German silver, blah, blah, blah, it all sounded good. HE HATED IT!



Luckily my other horse enjoyed it!



So anyways, I guess the point here is to see if you can try different bits out before you get them! I know that I was able to try out the bits from Chimicum before I bought them and could send the ones I didn't want back! That is hard to find!They were also well made and not super expensive. I have not had any sharp edges, pinched cheeks or any other problems with them. She also had a lot of selection for the smaller creature. Her website does drive me crazy so I just call and order!


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## Sandee (Nov 28, 2011)

Becky, I read your post as saying that this horse has training and was driven in shows but you are having trouble on the trail. If I'm wrong, sorry. But a "show" horse does not necessarily mean that you can take that horse out on a trail and expect it to react the same. I once bought a 12 yr old "show" horse and discovered it had NEVER been ridden outside of the arena. This horse was from Kansas and farm stuff was "old hat" but BIG rocks, bridges, and woods must contain "things" that EAT horses!

Your new horse may just need to be re-trained for the "outdoors".


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## Becky Horat (Nov 29, 2011)

Yes, this little mare had only been driven in show ring situations. You bet we're doing lots of ground driving down the road and out on our wonderful "driving trails." Surprising enough, she is awesome!! I think she enjoys it...although she's having to learn that the ground isn't always level....haha. She just has a great attitude about everything. But, we are definately re-training her for the "outside world." That's why I was just searching for a little different bit just for this reason....to see if I could find anything better than what I'm using on her.


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