# one more question



## runamuk (Oct 27, 2004)

Is there an easy way to look up the actual number of horses who cross enter between AMHR Nationals and Pony Congress? I would be curious to see if the numbers show it to be as "big" an issue as some people seem to think it is........


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## Lewella (Oct 27, 2004)

I think it would take cross referrencing results but no, I don't think it is as huge an issue as some make it out to be. I'm sure Getitia had a few shown at both and Dr. Tom Taylor probably had a few. Most people that I now who have double registereds tend to campaign a horse mini one year and Shetland a different year because the style of showing is just a little different and it can be difficult for a horse to switch styles mid season.


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## hhpminis (Oct 27, 2004)

I really do not think it is a big issue either. It would be a time consuming job to cross reference the 2.

1, it costs a lot to go to both

2, Like Lewella said it plays mind games with the horse, especially a young horse to try to show it both ways. In halter anyway.

I think it is a bigger issue at R Nationals of the small shetlands showing in the mini classes. Personally, I feel that when they put the height restrictions on the junior classes that it removed a lot of the unfairness of ponies showing against the minis. From what I see the ponies really seem to reach their height quicker, therefore if they can measure in as a junior they are going to stay under 38.


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## lyn_j (Oct 27, 2004)

[SIZE=14pt]I had three horses showing this year that could have gone to both but, because I cant afford to do both and I had two of them in the amhr futurity I took them there. This year we finished Man of Steels Mini Halter HOF and next year we are going to show him shetland. Once Teddy aka Father Dowling is finished with his halter and pleasure driving hall of fame we will show him shetland if we dont sell him. He will be three in the spring. If I could have gone to both I would have. I know Bruce showed Sweet and Sour at both and placed well at both. For me it is just a matter of money.[/SIZE]

Lyn


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## Getitia (Oct 27, 2004)

Actually having shown at both the Congress and Nationals for several years, the number of animals that enter both shows is pretty minimal.

Looking through both programs, overall I would estimate between 12 and 24 ponies/horses showed in both the Nationals and Congress/World shows in 2004. I can name almost all of them. None were ours - we had 2 separate show strings.

For the last several years we have not shown the same animals at both shows. It is often believed because you are showing at both shows, you are showing the same horses at both which is true for some but not all of the exhibitors. We did show the same horse 6 years ago and did well at the Nationals(National Champion) and ended up with the Gate at the Congress.

The primary reason we don't show the same horse in both is the size issue. Try showing a 36 inch Classic against a 46 inch Classic. That is like showing a 28 inch miniature against a 38 inch miniature. A 10 inch spread in height is huge. And not all tiny refined aspc/amhr animals fit the foundation definition, as often they are just too fine boned. Most aspc/amhr animals show foundation and tend to be more competitive in that division.

I read the posts/comments on the miniature forum regarding this issue. Found it interesting that in all the years of showing Shetlands, I've never had any Shetland exhibitor or any individual share with me that I or others should not be showing that miniature/shetland at the Congress or World shows. But I've had many miniature exibitors share they/we should not show shetland/miniatures at the Nationals or even at a local miniature show.




(just set in the stands at both shows and listen to the spectator comments - unfortunately most of the comments I heard at this year's Nationals on the "shetland" topic were less than kind )

Thought to myself, well perhaps I should just throw away the shetland papers for those horses that we show as miniatures - that way the animal would no longer be a registered shetland but just a registered miniature (since that is what most did in the 60s and 70s and if it worked then it should work now )



.

This year at the Nationals there were many 1/2, 3/4 or full aspc/amhr animals entered who did very well in both the over and under divisions. Most of the National exhibitors of aspc/amhr animals do not show at the congress or world shows so they are not as easily known as having shetland/miniatures like Taylors, Lutke's or many of the other breeders.

It is an interesting topic/question - one in which all exhibitors, breeders, owners should always ask themselves the question - "What is in the best interest of the breed ?"-especially before submitting or considering a rule to exclude a certain group of horses from competition. One would wonder if this topic would even be an issue if ASPC were not also affiliated with AMHR. Like making a rule that any horse that is registered AMHA/AMHR can only show in one National show each year - either AMHA or AMHR.

We also need to consider the PtHA association since many horses are registered PtHA/AMHR/AMHA - How about a rule that an exhibitor can pick just one of these associations to show in all year - institute a rule that you cannot cross enter between those 3 associations during the year. Certainly food for thought.


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 27, 2004)

as always getitia very well said !


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## hhpminis (Oct 27, 2004)

Here here





Well said Getitia!

Like I have said before, before they put the height limitations on the junior classes, yes I could see the gripe, but now that the height limitaions are in effect, the chance of a shetland going over 38 that measures in as a junior is very slight. They truly are a miniature whether they be shetland or any other blood breed.


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## runamuk (Oct 28, 2004)

As always....well stated getitia.....and I for one really didn't think that it was as widespread as many claim..........I don't even understand WHY it is a problem since Miniatures are regulated by height only so in my opinion if you had a welsh that measured in or any other pony breed/cross that stayed small enough why shouldn't they be allowed to show...........thanks for the input.....


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## Lewella (Oct 28, 2004)

Getitia








Like Annette mentioned, with the height divisions for age the way they are now this really shouldn't even be an issue. Sure, some of the double registered youngsters are going to be taller as foals but like Annette also said they quit growing quicker than many of the mini lines also. Most of my Shetlands have all but an inch or so of their height by 18 months and I've yet to have one put on any height after it turned 3. The ponies seem to go through a much worse case of yearling uglies because of this than most minis also.


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## kaykay (Oct 30, 2004)

well said getitia!!

I find it so interesting the comments people make about "mini" people and "shetland" people. Since i happen to love both and have a foot in both worlds it really makes me laugh. When I went to Congress this year I kept hearing "those dang mini people" and when i go to mini shows i always here "those dang shetland people" LOL Hmmm where does that leave me???


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## hhpminis (Oct 30, 2004)

LOL Kaykay

I'm a danged mini shetland person!

HHP Miniature Shetlands


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## Lisa-Ruff N Tuff Minis (Oct 30, 2004)

you would think.. that this Mini people/sheltand people might .. if one looks back far enough and sees the inner fighting that it just might.. remind them of issues that happened in another registry..hmmm


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## Minimor (Oct 31, 2004)

Well said Getitia & Annette--on the Mini side I had said much the same thing, about how it's much more fair now that there are height restrictions on the junior horses. Since that came in I don't see the height issue being a big deal any more.

I don't have any horses which are reg'd Shetland. However, some of our Minis must have Shetland fairly close up. We have mostly the B minis, in the 35-37" range. Some of our taller foals are, I think, going to be very competitive with the ASPC/AMHR entries they will come up against at the US shows. We're finding that these foals are very big as foals & yearlings, but then they quit growing--they do not go oversize at maturity. We are even raising some with a hotter temperament--that "attitude" that I think is so important in a show horse. They're not hot as in goofy, but they are show horses. So, if we're going for these traits in our horses & we're still just newcomers to the breed, I'm quite sure there are other long time breeders who are producing the same thing in their breeding programs even if they don't actually have ASPC reg'd horses. If this trend continues, in a few more years there are going to be many shetland-lookalikes which do not have any reg'd shetlands in their pedigrees for 3 or 4 generations at least. People complain about the Shetlands winning too much, & therefore want them to have to show only AMHR or ASPC in any year--it would sound like maybe the majority would still show AMHR, rather than ASPC, given the size disadvantage of showing against the bigger Shetlands. I just fail to see how this rule change would really benefit those who are complaining about showing against the shetlands. If it were to be passed, I think those people would be in for a disappointment.

Actually I asked a friend the other day how many horses do get shown both ways in a year. She named off a number of owners who show both ciruits. I realize these people do all show both circuits, but she couldn't tell me if they were all actually showing the same horse(s) both ways. She was simply assuming that was the case.


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