# stallion attacking child



## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

As some of you now my little guy Eagle is a little angel, Hubby has even said that he thinks he is a bit stupid as he is just so good. He adores my youngest son and there is a photo of them on my site with Alberto cleaning his feet when he was only 2 years old. Well last year he got sick and lost loads of weight and since then he has been bad with the dog, I have to keep them apart as Eagle will attack her.

Today we were in the barn and Alberto ( now 3 years old) walked up to Eagle to give him a kiss and he shot from the back of the stall with his ears flat back and lunged with his teeth and grabbed Alby, luckily I was in the stall next door so I threw the shavings fork at the wall and he let go, I jumped the wall and Eagle lunged again getting him on the back.

What the Hel. is wrong with him????

We recently got a new stallion and I understand that his quiet life has been disrupted but to attack my son is just out of the question. He will not go for my eldest son who is 12 and very tall bc we tried and he is as good as gold with me. Alberto adores him (well he did) and he comes to the barn with me daily.

Can I do anything to stop this behaviour or make Eagle more relaxed? Would it be enough to get rid of the new stallion?

Please help if you can

Thanks in advance

Renee and Alby


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## cassie (Jul 20, 2011)

Oh Renee you poor thing!! Is Alby ok? How odd of eagle!! I am hoping that eagle settles down so that Alby can love him again!!!


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

He cried so much that he has now fallen asleep. He was so upset that Eagle doesn't love him any more. This is what he did:


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## mrsj (Jul 20, 2011)

I have no idea but I don't let any kids (especially mine) near my stallion without a sturdy fence between them. You just never know with them, sometimes a smell will upset them, or just something different - I just posted about my recently gelded coat refusing to lead when I wore white trousers! So it is possible a new stallion around may make him feel threatened as herd leader and may make him want to assert himself.

This is not a criticism of you, I know you were there and obviously your boy until now has been a safe and reliable stallion. It is just what I do, had to explain this to the 3 girls next door, they do not even speak to me now after I explained he's a breeding animal, so not like the riding school ponies they are used to but they still try to feed my boys through the fence, I have had to tape off a bit of electric fence there so that there can be no contact as I don't want to be responsible for any nipping of fingers etc.

Without meaning to upset sometimes tumours in the brain can cause behaviour to change too (in other animals and people as well as horses).

I am sure someone more knowledgeable will help soon!

All the best,

maria


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## cassie (Jul 20, 2011)

Maw the poor little kid!! You must have been so scared Renee!!! He must have been so scared! I will be very interested to hear what advice people give you on him... Hope Alby feels better soon!!


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## mrsj (Jul 20, 2011)

Sorry, I meant to add I hope your little boy is ok, mine is 3 too and I totally sympathise. XXXX


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## kaykay (Jul 20, 2011)

The predictable thing about stallions is they are un predictable. I never ever turn my back on any stallion no matter how sweet I think they are.

I think that we unfairly give human qualities to our horses because we love them so much. But we have to remember they are animals and stallions especially are mostly driven by two needs. Sex and food.

I never ever allow anyone to kiss horses on the nose (even a mare) because its a good way to lose a lip. It still shocks me how many people will come here and bend down to kiss a horse they have never met on the nose. I always stop them.

I hope you rocked his world pretty good as soon as it happened. But ultimately your son should never be in a stall alone with any horse. They are just to unpredictable.

I really dont think getting rid of one will make a difference.

For sure he did not want your son in HIS space. Make sure hes not food aggressive etc as that alone can lead to issues when people enter a horses stall that is food aggressive. They should always be trained to stand and face you when feeding.

Ultimately he is not going to respect such a small child as his herd leader so best to be sure hes not with him without you right there.

Im so sorry this happened to you!


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

I understand about not leaving a stallion or any other horse alone with a child and I don't. Alby was outside his stall and Eagle wasn't eating. I was cleaning the stall next door and yes I did "have a little chat" with him after. They have been great friends since Alby was born and Alby can do things with him that I can't. for example, if I spray him he flinches and moves away when Alby does it he doesn't move a muscle, If he doesn't want to be caught and starts running around Alby can catch him. this is why it is so strange. The only thing I can think of is that Alby today didn't have a T shirt on and this might be the first time he has seen him like that! I got my older son to try and he didn't have a t shirt either but Eagle didn't do anything.






I am frightened of what my hubby will say when he gets home


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## Jill (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry for what happened!

Stallions are my favorite and I adore my boys so much. However, stallions really can be unpredictable and we don't always understand why they do what they do. I do not allow children to interact with our stallions. I do not expect them to do anything wrong, but, I know that things can happen and very few of my horses are accustomed to small children in the first place.

Years ago, we had an experienced and knowledgable forum member have her lip bit off by a stallion. And I do not mean bit, I mean bit OFF. It was her stallion. You just need to use care especially with stallions and of course, be more strict with them in terms of manners. However, no matter how much you work with any horse, they are still first and foremost horses and all horses are unpredictable when they want to be.


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## Sue_C. (Jul 20, 2011)

Sorry this happened to your son, and I hope it doesn't make him afraid of horses. I am another who will not allow "kisses" and hand feeding, I have seen what can happen in the worst case scenarios of both. Thank goodness the stallion got him in the back, and not the face. It could of been something as simple as your son had stepped into some manure left by a mare, or even worse, the other stallion. He might of patted another horse...who knows, they are very scent-related animals.

So many people do not take into consideration that a mini stallion, is still...ultimately...just that...a stallion. Not a toy, nor a cute little pet...but an animal controlled as already stated...by sex and food. I personally feel that kids and stallions do not mix well...a lot of folks get away with it, until, as in this case...it doesn't. That is why geldings are so great.





IMO, there is not need to be angry at the stallion...really, his punishment is a done-thing. I just hope your husband doesn't get angry at the stallion for acting out...the horse needs training, and proper handling, not anger.


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## Songcatcher (Jul 20, 2011)

Very good advise given already. I hope your boy will be fine.

It is our tendency to treat our animals as the sweet, gentle toys they appear to be. A variety of factors can contribute to unexpected behavior. The new stallion MAY be a factor, and removing him MIGHT ease the problem, but after such an event, I would NEVER trust Eagle again to the extent you did before.

I am a bit old fashioned. I was raised on a farm (cattle) and was taught to NEVER trust a bull. We knew people who treated their bulls like pets, and also knew people who were seriously injured by their pet bulls.

I love my stallions. I have selected them in large part for their kind gentle nature. I have NEVER had a serious issue with any of my stallions, but I never FULLY trust them. They are stallions.


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## Songcatcher (Jul 20, 2011)

I would like to say also, thanks for posting this as it serves as a reminder and MAY prevent someone else from being hurt.


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

I hope you are NOT worried that I or my husband would "hurt" my stallion?? I have been around horses all my life and worked with them full time before I was married so I am quite aware of the dangers of horses. I have children and that I can't change, I also can't change that they come with me daily to the barn whilst they are on holiday. My son doesn't "play with a toy" he is very attached to Eagle but he already knows the rules. I am not stupid nor are my children. My son walked into the barn and Eagle attacked him. Eagle has seen him since he was born and until today has looked for him. If my son is outside the field Eagle will stand by the gate and wait for him to come with the head collar to take him for a grooming. I am always with my son and I am very protective of my horses, no other children are aloud and I never invite my kids friends. These are breeding horses and not kids ponies.

What I was asking is why has he changed? I wasn't expecting people to attack or criticize me as a mother or a horse owner.

I shouldn't have posted it publicly I am just too upset today for this.






Getting off now.


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

Songcatcher said:


> Very good advise given already. I hope your boy will be fine.
> 
> It is our tendency to treat our animals as the sweet, gentle toys they appear to be. A variety of factors can contribute to unexpected behavior. The new stallion MAY be a factor, and removing him MIGHT ease the problem, but after such an event, I would NEVER trust Eagle again to the extent you did before.
> 
> ...


I totally agree. Thank you


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## mrsj (Jul 20, 2011)

Hi

Sorry I did not mean to upset you as you are upset anyway. I just meant reasons are many - could be your son looked different and that was it.

I hope he is ok and can still enjoy horses.

I hope you don't feel too bad.

XXX


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## kaykay (Jul 20, 2011)

Eagle I did not in anyway mean to upset you and I do not think anyone else did either. This is probably just so fresh for you that any kind of advise comes off hurtful.

No one can answer why he changed as none of us where there or saw it. It could be so many different things. Sometimes we just never know why they do what they do.

And I do think its a good post to remind all of us to always use caution around animals but especially stallions.


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

Kay, I have the kids on holiday until the 12th of September



This is going to be so hard!

I don't want Eagle upset and I was really hoping that someone could give me the magic answer to make him happy again.

I think I know myself what I need to do. Until this year he lived in the herd with the girls so he was happy and relaxed, then I read on hear that he shouldn't be with them with their babies all the time so I took him out, I put him in the field with my yearling colt which was fine until the mares came in heat then it got dangerous as they started to fight so now he is alone. If that wasn't enough I got a new stallion so they go out half a day each and I guess he can hear the new guy "at it" with the mares as he is very vocal.

I stopped using Eagle as he nearly always always reproduces sorrel pinto's which is the only colour that I don't like, but because he is 12 years old and always so good with my son I would never sell him on.

I think I will just get rid of the new stallion and put him back with the girls.


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## Chelley (Jul 20, 2011)

I appreciate so much that you posted this. I hope your little one is doing well and not too traumatized...I am sure it was very scary for him. I have the sweetest little stallion that I love-he is my favorite of my horses. I also have a 6-year-old little girl. I always tell her to not go in with them (any of our horses) ever alone. However, sometimes she is out there with my 14-year-old daughter "helping" with chores. Although I tell them to never turn their backs on any of them, and especially on our little stud, and to never fully "trust" them, I would never have pictured this kind of possible behavior from him. Scary thought and just emphasized to me again the need for caution. I too would never expect my stallion to act in this way, but this proves that no matter how sweet we think they are, unpredictable things can and do happen. So again, thanks so much for the warning, especially for us newbies who can always use good advice and reminders in handling our horses, and very sorry that your little man was hurt-sounds like his little heart as much as his back.


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## happy appy (Jul 20, 2011)

My only advice would be to geld him if you aren't using him for Stud anymore. That way you can keep him and your son can still play with him. Sorry that it happened.


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## valshingle (Jul 20, 2011)

I have no idea what happened to cause Eagle to attack your son. I imagine it has to do with his breeding drive. So, it's hard to say how to prevent it in the future, except to physically keep your son from interacting with Eagle in a way in which he might get hurt.

You said that you aren't breeding Eagle anymore - have you considered gelding him? You may have already discussed this on another thread, and if so I apologize for bringing it up again.

I think the other posters were just using this as a cautionary tale of what can happen whenever people and animals interact.

As long as the skin isn't broken, I have found that Traumeel (aka Traumed) works very well on this sort of injury. It can be found in most organic/health stores. It really eases the pain.

Good luck!


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 20, 2011)

Eagle,

Please dont take this the wrong way, but if your not using him as a stallion, why not geld him and then let him live with the mares who arent out with the other stallion? He would still have the mares for company, no risk of those sorrel pinto foals, AND he would likely settle down a bit. I would bet the new stallion has him "asserting" his territory a bit, and that might be why he did what he did. Geldings make awesome kids horses, or horses for anyone really. I love geldings, If its not a gelding when it gets here, it is not long after, lol. As a matter of a fact, there will be a bit of snipping going on here in a few weeks.


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## gatorbait4sure (Jul 20, 2011)

I too own multiple stallions and do not fully trust any of them ( although i'd love to ) ....but I am trying to piece the things that are happening together...and look for reasons for his behaviour. But until he "tells" us what is going on we may never know.....

1. He was majorly sick recently, and lost weight.....Ulcers? Our horses work off their stomachs. He may be prone to ulcers for the rest of his life, and that would make him unsettled if something was brewing.

2. When he recoverd from his illness he hated your dog ( read this small live being)....Could he possibly be seeing your son as another small live being?

3. A new stallion has come into his space. He may be trying to protect ALL his space now, from anything he may "See" as competition.

Just a few thoughts from the heat of Cape Cod.....


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## RhineStone (Jul 20, 2011)

Songcatcher said:


> I am a bit old fashioned. I was raised on a farm (cattle) and was taught to NEVER trust a bull. We knew people who treated their bulls like pets, and also knew people who were seriously injured by their pet bulls.
> 
> I love my stallions. I have selected them in large part for their kind gentle nature. I have NEVER had a serious issue with any of my stallions, but I never FULLY trust them. They are stallions.


I have known of people who were _killed_ by bulls. It is generally recognized that dairy breed bulls are more aggressive than beef bulls.



Eagle said:


> What I was asking is why has he changed? I wasn't expecting people to attack or criticize me as a mother or a horse owner.


I don't see anyone attacking or criticizing. I see people giving the _actual truth_ about stallions. What has changed? It could be the stallion's age, the child's age or growing testerone levels, or some of the other ideas that have been offered. I don't care how "sweet" a stallion is. As long as he has testacles between his legs, even I wouldn't trust _myself_ "letting down" around him. Heck, there are even some mini mares that I wouldn't trust around my 9 yr. old son. Unfortunately, he has been "dropped kicked" by aggressive mares who I then put the fear of God in afterwards.




Apparently, they weren't well established in the herd hierarchy with people as the "boss mares", yet.



Eagle said:


> I don't want Eagle upset and I was really hoping that someone could give me the magic answer to make him happy again.
> 
> I stopped using Eagle as he nearly always always reproduces sorrel pinto's which is the only colour that I don't like, but because he is 12 years old and always so good with my son I would never sell him on. I think I will just get rid of the new stallion and put him back with the girls.


Magic answer? Cut the stud and turn him out with the girls. A lot of stallions are not very happy just given their circumstances of having to live a solitary life. Good stallions make great geldings. We have a 17 yr. old former stud that we cut a couple of years ago who is much happier being in the herd instead of by himself. I can trust anyone with him now.


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## ohmt (Jul 20, 2011)

I think he was probably upset about something and took it out on your son-probably not even realizing who it was, just acting. Could be any number of things. Was your son playing with the dog before the incident by chance?

Hugs to you and your son. It's always a traumatizing event when something like this happens.


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## Marty (Jul 20, 2011)

This sounds to me a situation of territoriality. Brought on by the presence of the new stallion. Suddenly Eagle is feeling the need to defend what little he feels is left, in his mind, its his stall. Eagle feels he no longer rules the roost and he does not like that and wants to show everyone he wants his position back. He's proving his dominance.

When I brought a new stallion onto this place my sweet Nick did the opposite: he sulked and was depressed. When the new stallion did not work out and I sold him, Nick was back to his happy self. They are all different. Instead of getting depressed, Eagle got PO'd and is letting everyone know in the only way he knows how.

I'm so sorry about your little boy.


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## shelia (Jul 20, 2011)

I know how heartbreaking this is for you and Alby. I am so glad that he was not badly hurt. It is a hard lesson for a child, but it will help him to realize that there are dangers involved when dealing with animals. We love our animals and want to think they have the same feelings we do.

I remember when I had my colts together and they loved each other and would get very upset if I had to take one out for even a minute. They eventually started playing pretty rough with each other. One day I decided to give each one his own little pasture and was just going to try it out for a few minutes. after about ten minutes I put them back together. They then tried to kill each other!! They drew blood! I had to quickly separate them again. They can never be together again. It is so hard to understand how they grew up together and loved each other, then suddenly would kill. Their brains are wired differently than ours. They work on instincts. Killing something does not mean the same thing to them as it does to us. To them it is not wrong. We have to accept that.

Bringing the other stallion in and giving him the mares may have triggered his instinct for survival. I don't know if you can ever unopen that door. gelding may help. Giving him a mare of his own may help.

It could have been because he wasn't wearing a shirt, or it could have been just because he was small. My stallions will go after anything smaller than them. My cats aren't very smart and I lose some of them someday to the stallions. I can't train the stallions to leave them alone.


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## Lizzie (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry to hear your son was hurt by his buddy Eagle. However, as others have said, it is not safe to allow small children around horses regardless of sex. Things go wrong and sometimes with the most surprising horses, whom we have trusted for years.

If I read your messages correctly, you have three stallions on the property. Eagle, your new stallion and a yearling colt, who is also well of an age to breed at this point. Definitely geld Eagle, since you obviously don't like the foals he has produced. Decide between the other two, which one you like best and geld the other. Since you have children and they obviously bring friends to visit, you don't want to risk another accident or it could end up in a big law suit.

When I showed dogs and horses, I almost always had more boys than girls. I just prefer the boys. However, they _are_ a big responsibility and one can never let one's guard down. I'm sure it will be a lot less stressful for you, once the two boys are gelded and it will also make your new stallion a happier fellow, since he will have no competition.

I do think that stallions should be trained to respect space from an early age, and also be given a job to do. ie. something other than just breeding. Trained animals always seem to have more sense of responsibility, plus learning that they are not at the top of the family situation. My daughter purchased a yearling colt a few years ago. He was put with her old gelding, until he proved he might be breeding quality. She had only had him for a couple of weeks and was cleaning his feed bowl, when he came from behind and bit her leg quite badly. Her old gelding stepped in immediately and removed the colt to the corner of the corral and held him there. Geldings are wonderful creatures. And no, the colt was never bred. Temperament is extremely important, regardless of sex.

Lizzie


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

Thanks Marty, that sounds like it could just be the right answer. I was thinking of bringing home to the house for a little chill out time, what do you think? would this help or upset him even more.

There are no horses at the house.


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## disneyhorse (Jul 20, 2011)

This is how even a stallion with the best temperament can act. This is why stallions are NOT appropriate for children. Ever.

I feel strongly about kids and animals... it is a relationship that must be carefully monitored, no matter how gentle the dog/cat/horse/whatever may be normally.

I'm sorry your little boy got hurt, I hope he's okay emotionally, too. But please, stallions and kids don't mix.

Andrea


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## Hosscrazy (Jul 20, 2011)

I think Sue summed it up perfectly. Stallions are exactly that - stallions. They are not pets or toys. We have a few full size studs and we handle them differently than we would the geldings or mares. No criticism at all, but I do not put my face anywhere near our stud's faces.

Best wishes,

Liz


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

Shelia, that made a lot of sense. thank you


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## 2minis4us (Jul 20, 2011)

That's really scary for a kid, and YOU. If you do not want to use him for breeding right there is your answer - geld him. Hormones are raging this time of year and bringing another stallion in probably upset him. He ruled the roost and now he has competition. Makes sense.


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## chandab (Jul 20, 2011)

So sorry your son was hurt and scared by Eagle.


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## Ashley (Jul 20, 2011)

Well if I had any horse that attacked like that, mare, stallion or gelding they would be a dead horse. Just like if my dog were to bite my kid that dog would be a gonner as well.

That said, he may not change so be prepared for that. I know of a horse that was like that except towards adults as well. The horse never changed and could never be trusted around anybody.


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## ruffian (Jul 20, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Thanks Marty, that sounds like it could just be the right answer. I was thinking of bringing home to the house for a little chill out time, what do you think? would this help or upset him even more.
> 
> There are no horses at the house.


Absolutely not - this could make him even worse. He is already missing his mares, and to not have ANY contact could make him unmanageable. I agree with others - if you aren't using him for breeding, and don't want to sell him, gelding him is the answer.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jul 20, 2011)

I'm so sorry this has happened. Everyone is traumatized by it - you, your son and also probalby Eagle. Eagle has had so many changes lately and maybe he's just mad, irritated, sad or all three. Maybe he doesn't feel well physically. Maybe it was a one-time thing that will never happen again or maybe it's the new norm. Either way, it's not his fault and he is only being an animal - loving and beautiful, but unpredictable.

Again, I'm sorry.


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## Melinda Dean (Jul 20, 2011)

I am so sorry you and your family are going through this.



No matter what the future holds for your stallion, you will never trust him again.

I notice that many folks are commenting on geldings being safer. I agree... up to a point.

My Welsh pony gelding was great with kids, then one day, lunged over the stall door, missed biting my 12 yr. old granddaughter on her collar bone by a fraction of an inch. I was right there, 12 feet further down the aisle talking to her and saw the entire thing. She did nothing wrong.... except she had just spent time playing with our mini while the Welsh had been stalled, so as not to crowd in for attention in the paddock. Was he jealous? Who knows. I backed him into the corner just by looking over the stall door at him. He understood that much, that the boss was mad.

Did I punish him? Why? The damage was done. I could not trust him again, as I have children visit my barn, always with tons of supervision. After drying her tears and trying to explain she had done nothing wrong, I told her that I was going to send Pedro to a nice farm, with plenty of pastures, and with a big Boss Mare, to teach him his manners again. Luckily, I was able to do this, and he is considered one of the farms best driving ponies. But no children are ever allowed near him. He has never threatened to bite in the 4 yrs. since. I loved him dearly and cried off and on for a long time. I still miss driving him, but .... he had to go.

Even geldings are still horses, unpredictable at all times. We often forget this because they can be almost perfect, most of the time.


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## Reijel's Mom (Jul 20, 2011)

It is hard to put things in perspective anytime our children are hurt. But the reality is, sometimes horses can slip up and treat us humans like other horses. It really wouldn't have been a big deal if Eagle had rushed another horse the way he did your little boy. He has no way to know that he could have very seriously hurt him, he was just being a horse.

I think, that no matter what changes you make to try and make him happy, this could happen again. Because - it could with ANY horse. Gelding him (which I would strongly consider) would probably decrease the chance of it happening again, but it could still happen.

Not bashing here at all - this was a scary learning experience, that is for sure. My toddler moved too quick for me the other day and she could have been hurt by some of the minis. I was right there, but not quite close enough. Thank God nothing happened. But it could have.


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## bannerminis (Jul 20, 2011)

So sorry to hear that Renee and hope little Alby will be ok. It must be so hard for you too and I can only imagine the guilt.

I hope that you can resolve it and who knows what was going through Eagles head at the time but does sound like he has had a lot of change going on that he is trying to deal with.

Maybe having him as a gelding would be win win for all of you especially if he is not been used for covering mares anymore.


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## Marty (Jul 20, 2011)

I would not take Eagle away from his herd at all. He "needs" them, his friends and his band of mares around him. What he does not need is a change of scenery alone without the horses he loves. He is "established" there and its his place and space that has been invaded. That is what has got him all so out of sorts in my humble opinion. I think if the other stallion were removed or at least in another barn or section of your place and out of his site, he'd get back to his old self. He is seeing that other stallion as a constant thorn in his side. Its competition and jealousy and he does not appreciate it.


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

Well hubby is home and I told him about our day and he was very understanding. He took Alberto aside and told him that Eagle had been naughty just like Alby and his older are sometimes and his punishment for being bad is that he won't be able to play with Alby for a while just like when Alby is naughty and gets sent to his room.

I have phoned the woman that gave me the new stallion on trial and told her that I won't be able to keep him, he should be leaving this weekend. Eagle will go back out with "HIS" girls and hopefully that will cheer him up.

Lots of you have mentioned gelding him, well luckily Eagle lives in Italy where boys nuts are sacred (hubby would never let me geld him) I only have a few mares and I don't breed them all every year so they can easily be sent away to breed. I will worry about that next year. the only remaining problem is my yearling colt that is up for sale anyway, I will bring him home and start to train him in the mean time.

As for Eagle and the kids I guess things just won't be the same again but I can live with that. We have had him 5 years now and I suppose we have just been very lucky until now. He really is an angel and I feel sorry for him and guilty for having put him in this position as he is obviously very stressed and unhappy.

Thanks for you advice.

Renee, Alby & Eagle


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## LittleRibbie (Jul 20, 2011)

Oh Renee, I am so sorry to read this. How is little Alby feeling tonight...bet hes still pretty sore and Im sure confused about why his best bud acted like just such a mean bully today.

nick is my 1st stallion and he sounds very much like your eagle, back when Eagle was the only top dog in the yard. I have got to think that eagle has been stressing and stressing since you brought home your other little stud. Perhaps like you said, hearing breeding going on,different smells, pasture play time has decreased ( I think and aplogize if Im wrong).He's such a good boy he just kept all those feelings bottled in.....shake that soda can enough and it will explode. Poor Alby just happened to be around when the can exploded. Its just as possible that he would have quickly turned around to give you a little bite or kick...but as an adult,quicker and more knowledgeable would have stopped him in his tracks and you would have gotten "right after Eagle" for acting like a mean dope and that would be the end. It was just unfortunate that Alby was the one close by. But in the end I just really think that Eagle has been bottling up his feelings for awhile and he's sick of it and could very well do it again so now you know, Alby knows, Matteo knows, know one in Eagles stall w/o Mommy no exceptions. But I do not think ( and I may be reading your post wrong )bringing him up to your house will make much difference and it may make it worse. I dont even know if the extra attention or extra human cuddles will make a difference after all....most of that stuff is really only therapy for us humans cause we think its helping the horse LOL. I say, start embracing bay pintos,let Eagle run with a mare or two and he will settle right back down. If hes a good stallion personally I would not rush right out to geld. JMO. Give it some time. give your self some time! I also wouldnt rush to get rid of your other stallion yet. It sounds like he's relaxed some since you got him. Bottom line take a deep breath, relax and no need to make any quick decisions you may regret. Just make sure boys know there is no more free stylin in Eagles or any stallions stall.... but they can brush him when hes tied up under your supervision.

Get some rest honey, I feel so bad, as I bet your heads going a mile a minute, Wish I had a big huge hug icon for ya but I dont. Remember bay pintos are beautiful....feel free to send the next one my way! I understand too the liklihood may be greater w/a stallion but geeze this could have been a mare or gelding just having a bad day too.


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## LittleRibbie (Jul 20, 2011)

We must have been typing at the same time....hugs my friend!!


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## bevann (Jul 20, 2011)

I am so sorry about your child.I know he must be really upset that his buddy hurt him.My suggestion would be to geld Eagle since you are no longer using him.It sounds like he and Alby had a very special relationship until recently and they can have that again.Children are very forgiving and after you explain to Alby that Eagle was upset because there is a new kid taking over his very important job and Alby just was in the wrong place when Eagle has his temper tantrum, he may come around.I have gelded several older stallions and they have become awesome geldings.Geldings are great with kids.Hope things work out for all.


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## Magic (Jul 20, 2011)

We have four stallions here, ranging in age from 15 down to two years old. The oldest one is actually the sweetest, though they are all quite good. But, the competition of having other stallions around does weigh on them. One of my stallions hates the sight of one of my mares, who has an unfortunate resemblance to one of my geldings, who he hates. Yeah, it's not just other stallions that they resent, but other males, especially those geldings that are somewhat dominant. Oh, and if those geldings are in with the stallion's mares, that makes it even worse. The two year old still lives with his two year old gelding buddy but he hasn't bred any mares yet; next year I'm sure it will be very different. I just try to keep the stallions as far away from each other as possible, and surrounded by mares so that they can feel that they each have their own. Everyone else has been so right, stallions operate on instinct and it's far different from what people are like (well, most of them, lol). A stallion's driving force is to fight off other males and retain and protect his mares. Reproduce. Food is a secondary need it seems.

I'm so sorry that your son was hurt, and glad that it wasn't worse. I hope that it doesn't turn him against horses. I would explain that it isn't that Eagle doesn't like him anymore, it's that Eagle is upset and was confused. I too would consider gelding Eagle since you plan on keeping him. He would be SO much happier, and in time, safer for all of you. I realize that he's been a model of decorum up until now so I really think that having another stallion on the place, plus the colt, and perhaps likely has ulcers as well, are all affecting him. Gelding him would help immensely. Some of my colts that I've loved I've simply gelded so as not to be pressured to sell them. *grin* LOVE my geldings. I love my stallions too, but they do have an added risk for sure. Especially for kids.

I was typing at the same time too. I like the way that your husband explained things to Alby, and it sounds like a good idea to let the "on trial" stallion go home.




Alby learned a hard lesson but I hope that it benefits him in the future. I hope he's feeling better!


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## LittleRibbie (Jul 20, 2011)

I dont know if its an Italian as much as a male thing....my hubby is the same way with all our male dogs, all of which still have all their parts...b/c hubby thinks its cruel to remove. Crazy


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## RhineStone (Jul 20, 2011)

Why would it be any more cruel than circumcision?


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## chandab (Jul 20, 2011)

LittleRibbie said:


> I dont know if its an Italian as much as a male thing....my hubby is the same way with all our male dogs, all of which still have all their parts...b/c hubby thinks its cruel to remove. Crazy


I'm pretty sure its a man thing, but what I don't get... My husband is a rancher and he comes from a ranching family, so 99% of bull calves are castrated and 99.9% of colts are gelded; but don't even think about neutering the dog (they might miss them you know).


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## Eagle (Jul 20, 2011)

Diane your poor Tommy, he looks so sad in the photo too. Thank goodness Alby wasn't that bad.

Hugs Renee


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## Helicopter (Jul 20, 2011)

Just want to say I hope Alby is feeling better now. Poor little guy must have been devastated to think his best buddy didn't love him any more. On occasion my ponies do things to hurt my feelings (like ignore me) and it really does hurt (and I'm a big girl) so my heart goes out to him,.

As others have said it sounds like Eagle just reached his breaking point and Alby happened to be there at the time. He'd lost his position, he'd lost his girls............................

I hope you, Alby and Eagle are soon back to normal.


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## rimmerpaints (Jul 20, 2011)

OMG im so sorry I hope Alby is ok! I cant help ya thats never happened with our stallion. But if a mare is in heat near by he can be hard to handle. I did have a stallion many years ago pen me in a stall but i thought it was cuz he didnt know me i was feeding for a friend and this stallion cared me to death.


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## Nathan Luszcz (Jul 20, 2011)

Its a stallion... people forget that even small stallions are still stallions. NEVER TRUST A STALLION!


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## CharlesFamily (Jul 20, 2011)

Poor Alby! And poor you! I'm so sorry this happened. I do agree with the others - I think Eagle is unhappy and I think you have come to the right conclusion about what to do. We only have geldings, and they are wonderful kids' horses. That said, last week was our fair and two of our miniature geldings went. Toy is my youngest daughter's horse. He is fantastic, but he doesn't see Maddy as the boss - he sees me as the boss, although he is starting to listen to her better. After her show last Tuesday, she was putting him away. It was very hot, there was a lot of commotion, and I think he was just cranky about being kept in a stall at the fairgrounds when he was used to being turned out everyday. Whatever it was, she took off his lead and turned to leave the stall and he bit her on the shoulder - left a pretty good mark, too. This is completely out of character for Toy and Maddy was hysterical. Of course, I ran right in there and Toy had his first "come to Jesus" talk that I'd ever had to give him. I am pretty sure he thought his world was ending, but I'm also pretty sure he understands exactly why this " boss mare" was giving him what for. So while geldings are typically more predictable than stallions - they are all still animals with deep instincts that we can't always predict. We just have to do the best that we can, and I think you have!

Barbara


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## HGFarm (Jul 21, 2011)

I am so sorry that happened- and for the simple fact that he is a stallion and there is now another male there, doesnt surprize me.

Also wanted to make note that stallions dont know the difference between another stallion and a gelding. A male is a male and they are all competition- and can surely make them cranky.

So glad your son was not injured any worse than he was and hope he wont be scared of the horses now.


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## Mominis (Jul 21, 2011)

Eagle, this is merely my opinion, but I think that maybe your son is too young to be able to notice the subtle signals that a horse gives off before he is aggressive. It may just be a posture or a look in their eye, a twitch of the ear, or a tightening of the jaw, but those simple signals that an experienced horseman like yourself would immediately interpert as "something is up with this horse," may be beyond the grasp of your young son.

I don't blame your stallion or your son or yourself for this situation. However, I think when reintegrating your son with the horses after his accident that you may want to spend some time with him and teach him the language of horses. Let him watch them in their herd and when a horse gives a sign of aggression or submission, dominance or subserviance, point it out to him. Then, after a while, have him tell you that, "Eagle is upset that Fluffy is at the hay pile," or whatever the case may be. Learning to read the horses' moods and explore their language, both in a herd dynamic as well as in horse to human relations will serve him well growing up on a breeding farm. It may also help him to associate with the horses again without fear or timidity.

That's my two bits.


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## Eagle (Jul 21, 2011)

Thank you Mominis that was wise advice and you are right, he is a little young but we can start. Alby was not at fault as he was just walking passed the stall but Eagle obviously didn't want him there.

Today I turned him out with the herd leader to sort him out in case he got crappy with the girls too and he sure did. He flew up to her screaming and ramping until she turned and gave him a double barrel in the belly he then tried to herd her but she stopped dead and reared at him so he lifted his head and trotted off.

Peace is restored


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## billiethekid40 (Jul 21, 2011)

Since you have the boys home on holiday and they must be in the barn with you (and of course you must enjoy sharing that time with them anyway so leaving them out of chore time isn't an option you even want to consider!) can you look into some kind of wire mesh door to keep Eagle from being able to come "over" the stall door again? This would at least keep the youngsters out of harms way just being in the barn and walking past the stall. I wouldn't enclose the stall in a way that he can't see out, only in a way that keeps him from being able to reach over the walls and door. You can leave the top door of the stall open when the kids aren't around if you design it right.


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## mydaddysjag (Jul 21, 2011)

I agree, can you make a "dutch door" top thats something like a cattle panel framed in 2x4's? Im doing this for our shed row barn, so at night I can shut my top doors but the horses can still see out and get fresh air. I wouldnt have them at all, but we occasionally get coyotees in our area.


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## DiamondShadowRanch (Jul 21, 2011)

gatorbait4sure said:


> I too own multiple stallions and do not fully trust any of them ( although i'd love to ) ....but I am trying to piece the things that are happening together...and look for reasons for his behaviour. But until he "tells" us what is going on we may never know.....
> 
> 1. He was majorly sick recently, and lost weight.....Ulcers? Our horses work off their stomachs. He may be prone to ulcers for the rest of his life, and that would make him unsettled if something was brewing.
> 
> ...


If he was sick recently, maybe some work to show who's boss, and some time alone will help.

My Arabian mare got incredibly sick in '09 and she almost didn't make the night. We never found out what it was, either colic or clover poisoning. She lost quite a bit of weight, and we had her out with a QH 3-year-old filly after the vet gave her the OK to come home. My friend and I went to go catch them both, to bathe them and give my mare some food the vet reccomended, and my mare kicked my friend, scraped the skin and gave a big bruise. She, all her life, has been a sweet mare, always the first one to come galloping across the field to her name, and tolerated us teens being idiots with her. When I got her home, she also threatened to kick me, so I gave her about 5 minutes of running around her pen before I even considered feeding her. After she was huffing, I gave her a pet and a hug, and gave her some food. After that, she's been perfectly fine. Photo is a year later with my friend being, well, an idiot



. To this day, she's still perfect and back to her old self.


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## Sandee (Jul 21, 2011)

Hope your son is ok by now. His Dad sounds like a good reasonable person.

I have to comment on all the comments about "never trusting a stallion". I keep telling people these are HORSES - just because they are small does not mean that they are in anyway not a horse! They are an animal and you can never tell EXACTLY what they are thinking. My 34" mare that I have raised from a baby who does EVERYTHING I ask of her (drives, obstacle HOF, jumps etc.) has pinned me against the wall of her stall because she doesn't like the stall fork. I believe she thinks it's going to steal her hay from her.

My 23 yr old gelding who hates to move most of the time; reared and bucked off our 6 yr old granddaughter because she wanted him to walk and he was cold and wanted to trot. I have the pictures to prove that he had all four feet off the ground and then the front two pawing the air. She didn't blame him and wanted to ride the next morning.

I also have a stallion who is lazy and sweet as can be. But I've seen him go after the gelding with pure hate in his eye and I don't give him the opportunity to bite me.

I vote for the reason your stallion went after your son as the hormones and how upset he must be for being away from his mares. My stallion has just this year become more unpredictable since I let him try to breed my mare. We bred outside mares before but never was he allowed to go near her. Now that he has bred her, he's become a fence runner and insanely jealous everytime either one of them is out of their stalls.

The only other solution to your situation might be to split your herd and give each stallion his "own" set of mares.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jul 22, 2011)

Well, i have not read all the post on here, but i saw your sons back. I dont have to see any more to know that if that happened here, whether it be your child, my child, or anyone else,that horse would no longer eat at my barn. I hope he enjoyed that last meal at your house, because that should be the last time that horse should benefit from your hospitality.

I will NOT tolerate or feed a bad temper in ANY species.

He would have a one way ticket to the next auction able to run him through. If there is not one tomorrow somewhere Call animal control, and have him picked up.

Horses are not predictable, but let me assure you, I AM.


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## txminipinto (Jul 22, 2011)

All I'm going to say is that no horse should be totally trusted with any child. Children ARE unpredicatable, loud, obnoxious (yes I have one of my own), move too fast, and aren't always the most gentle. They also do NOT understand equine body language. Stallions bite. They just do. Even the most easy going stallion will bite if bothered enough. My own son was bit in the back while cleaning stalls by a 3 year old mare who was TIED in a corner in the stall. He was being obnoxious and loud and she had enough of it. It doesn't matter how long a horse and child, or any animal and child for that matter, have known each other. When an animal can not escape or feels threatened, they will act out. I have to closely watch mares with new foals around my son. He's over whelmed by the cuteness and just doesn't understand that the mares see him (and anyone or thing else) as a threat to their new babies. I only hope that he takes my warnings to heed and if he doesn't, well, we'll just consider it a learning opportunity. But no animal will be removed from my property for acting appropriately when threatened. Its a lesson WE have to learn, they are just doing what comes naturally.


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## dianemcc (Jul 22, 2011)

Posted Today, 10:37 AM

All I'm going to say is that no horse should be totally trusted with any child. Children ARE unpredicatable, loud, obnoxious (yes I have one of my own), move too fast, and aren't always the most gentle. They also do NOT understand equine body language. Stallions bite. They just do. Even the most easy going stallion will bite if bothered enough. My own son was bit in the back while cleaning stalls by a 3 year old mare who was TIED in a corner in the stall. He was being obnoxious and loud and she had enough of it. It doesn't matter how long a horse and child, or any animal and child for that matter, have known each other. When an animal can not escape or feels threatened, they will act out. I have to closely watch mares with new foals around my son. He's over whelmed by the cuteness and just doesn't understand that the mares see him (and anyone or thing else) as a threat to their new babies. I only hope that he takes my warnings to heed and if he doesn't, well, we'll just consider it a learning opportunity. But no animal will be removed from my property for acting appropriately when threatened. Its a lesson WE have to learn, they are just doing what comes naturally.

_Carin Ponder, RVT_

_Iola, TX_

*Pondering Oaks Stables - Training and Sales*

_*Home of Pinto WORLD CHAMPIONS Happy Hooligan OK (HOF/ROM), CSF Rosie Flores (ROM), and Heaven's Gate Special Design (ROM)*_

I have to support you 100% on this.. I have a filly that has kick my son 3 times. I will not remove her from our property because of this.. Hunter has been bitten too but did I remove the mare no I did not. Hunter will stay a way from this mare and filly.


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## Eagle (Jul 22, 2011)

I can assure you that my stallion will not be going any where. My son will learn just like we all have. My point was that I was just so surprised at this evil side after having this guy 5 years and never seeing it. My son was NOT noisy, obnoxious or fast he was simply walking past. I wanted advice on how to make my stallion happy again but i seem to have received many lectures on how to be a mother and run a yard.

Hopefully I will have learnt


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## cassie (Jul 22, 2011)

You don't need to learn anything from this Renee you sound like a great mum n great horse owner Alby was walking past eagle was feeling off it was an

Accident that happened due to changes in eagles life it's a pity Alby walked past at the time he wanted to express his annoyance I know you must have been heartbroken from this display n Alby wold have been too yes Alby will be more careful next time it is a good lesson never to trust a stallion but it was an accident n accidents happen

I think you are a brilliant mum n horse breeder/ owner

N yes mum I'm going back to sleep lol

Love you Renee!!!


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## txminipinto (Jul 22, 2011)

Wasn't trying to "learnt" you on mothering.



Just being another voice of reason for ANYONE ELSE that may believe otherwise when it comes to these minis. They can be quite evil when it strikes them!



We have a young stallion that is well socialized, gets along well with other horses, is well mannered, etc.....but bring out the feed bucket and he gets very food aggressive. Has he bit me? Not yet. Will he? Probably. Will I get mad? yes. Will I correct him? yes Will I take him to the closest sale barn? No. If he bites me, its my fault. I know his temperment at feed time and if I turn my back on him or let me guard down....well then I deserve the reminder! We work with him on it but some things are just what they are and its up to me to make sure I keep myself safe.

Just like when I go out to feed the mares. They get pushy with each other and sometimes I get in the middle. For the most part, they don't crowd but every now and then we all need a reminder.


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## disneyhorse (Jul 22, 2011)

I don't really like hearing the word "evil" when it comes to a horse or animal acting ... well... like an animal. Stallions have a poor reputation... but it is because they are very hormone-driven animals and are often not treated with the care and respect they need.

The horse was not evil... it was put in a situation where it was not given the respect it needed.

Children do not belong with stallions of any size.

Andrea


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## RhineStone (Jul 22, 2011)

txminipinto said:


> Has he bit me? Not yet. Will he? Probably. Will I get mad? yes. Will I correct him? yes Will I take him to the closest sale barn? No. If he bites me, its my fault. I know his temperment at feed time and if I turn my back on him or let me guard down....well then I deserve the reminder!


I completely disagree with the underlined. It is never anyone's fault if a horse bites them, other than if they didn't correct it the first time it happens and they allow it to happen again. I don't care if it is a stallion, mare, youngster, etc., biting is not acceptable. John Lyons has said that biting is an aggressive, not defensive, behavior, and if it happens you have 3 seconds to "kill" the horse (heads are off limits). If biting behavior is "expected" then I would be working on an attitude adjustment during feeding time. I don't tolerate horses even putting their ears back at me during feeding. If they want to do that, they will find in short order that they just won't get fed. And if they continue it, they learn that mom is the boss and to lay their ears back at me will get mom to "bite back".

No, I don't trust stallions, but I sure don't allow them to have "stallion behavior" just because they still are intact! If that was the case, nobody could do anything with them. I have the same standards for all my horses.


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## Eagle (Jul 22, 2011)

Rhinestone, I couldn't agree more.


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## StarRidgeAcres (Jul 22, 2011)

This has been a very educational thread - especially if someone new to horses is reading this and I bet there are a few.

What Eagle did is not acceptable but not at all surprising. The child, as I understand it, was not unattended in the stall with him, but the horse was able to reach over/between the wall/gate/divider/whatever and make contact with the child. Should Eagle have gotten a "come to Jesus" meeting afterwards? He would have at my house! But he was acting like a stallion - unpredictable. Would I take him to the nearest sale barn? No. If for some reason a horse started acting like that and wouldn't stop and become unsafe even for an adult...then I would have some decisions to make. The horse still wouldn't go to the sale barn because that is just pushing the problem off on some unsuspecting person. If I had a horse that I believed in my heart was unsafe and not "fixable" I would put that horse down humanely and know that nobody else would be harmed and the horse would also not be in danger of being mistreated because of his issues.

I'm glad the OP posted this topic. It has been a good discussion of what can and sometimes does happen when working around horses.


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## Eagle (Jul 22, 2011)

This is Eagle's stall and as you can see he can only just reach out which is probably why he did minimal damage. Alby was stood by the divider as I was cleaning the first stall.





Hubby is now going to close the front off to the same height as the partitions, they will still be able to see each other but they won't be able to reach over the doors. I will make it with hinges so that I can leave them open at night.


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## bluerogue (Jul 22, 2011)

Eagle, I'm sorry your stallion had a moment, and I hope your son is going to recover both physically, and in his love for his horse. But I do have to say, I think your stalls are really neat!


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## AnnaC (Jul 22, 2011)

Parmela I agree with you in that any horse that proved to be a danger (with little or no reason) to humans should be humanely destroyed. Never would I consider sending it to a sale and passing the buck to someone else, for the horses sake as much as any new owners sake - you can imagine the treatment the poor animal might get as folks tried to 'sort it out'.

In the course of some 50 years with horses I have had two such animals. One was sold to me for my g/children (gelding), but although he was quite perfect during the several times we went to see and try him, I became suspicious within weeks of having him home. Luckily the children were still a school and had no free time to be around him. I was sure he had a screw loose/tumour or something, he just wasn't right. He wasn't an expensive buy as he was elderly, and I had him quietly put down. Should I have taken him back? A lot of folk would have, but what about the next people he would be passed on to - they might have been inexperienced and that would have been an accident waiting to happen, and in a local community I would have heard about it and never have forgiven myself.

The second one was an old mare that I had had for years, the sweetest girl you could hope to find. But she started slowly to get unsettled and after several months, nearly caught me out as she went to attack me. She stopped just before she reached me and I looked straight at her and could actually see as her eyes seemed to 'clear' and the normal sweet expression returned. She walked forward and laid her head in my arms. Two days later I had her quietly put down at home, absolutely convinced that something in her brain was wrong and that she tried to tell me about it.

There are many horses out there, I'm sure, that have mental and physical problems that often cause them great pain, and are maybe incurable, and then there are the folk who, instead of taking the kind humane route, are content to pass them on for someone else to deal with. The poor horse then begins the downward spiral of being passed from home to home, suffering goodness knows what until the end. Sorry, but this is something I feel very strongly about!

That said I have also given a home to many horses who have been badly treated/starved/beaten/tormented, and with kindness and understanding they have all come round and lived long and happy lives (they never got sold on!), but then these horses had been ruined by humans, they were not suffering from an incurable problem.


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## Lizzie (Jul 22, 2011)

I do so agree Anna. Certainly, temperament - goood and bad, is often inherited, just as conformation.

Having been in dogs and horses for a very long time, good temperament should always be uppermost in the breeder's decision. That said, so many times I have seen animals with biting and other issues, described as having been abused and the owner making excuses for their poor behaviour. More often than not, such animals have not been 'abused' at all, but just not raised and trained properly. A 'come to Jesus' talk, will often make them understand that they are not nearly as high in the heirachy of their situation, as they had come to believe.

Most dog bites are from whole, male dogs. If they had only been neutered, the vast majority of these bites would not have occurred. Lets face it, there are really comparitively few dogs and horses alive today, who are of the quality to be passing on their genetics to the next generation.

Sudden changes in behaviour, can almost always be traced. Loss of eyesight and hearing, is something I have seen which has often been seen. In senior animals, it is often a cause. Illness can be another cause. It must always be up to the owner, to seek out and find the cause of changes in a given animal's behaviour.

Many years ago, I sold a Great Dane puppy to a lovely lady. She later gave him to her elderly parents. They adored him but failed to set any limits. He eventually completely controlled their household. I was asked to take him back. As a responsible breeder, of course I did. Yes, he was quite a challange. After a year of some intense obedience training and many 'talks', he became my most treasured Great Dane of all my years in the breed. I miss him to this day and it's thirty two years later. I currently have an almost fifteen year old Brussels Griffon. He is probably the sweetest fellow I ever bred. But now, having lost his sight and hearing, he will bite anyone whom he smells but does not recognise. We understand that, so when guests visit, he is kept away from them. At his age, he is still a happy fellow around us and gets wild and happy at feeding time and even gets silly and plays. We understand his limits with others though and make the appropriate decisions for him daily.

I think when dealing with any animals who have displayed some behaviour which we don't like, we must first discover the reason and then act accordingly. If an animal is very dangerous and has not responded to intervention, then the worst decision, is to pass it on to someone else. The correct decision, is to put him/her away quietly, in the security of their own home.

By the way Anna, I have loved your website. When I need my Welsh fix, I shall revisit it. My mother's family are still all in Wales. Made me very homesick for home.

Lizzie


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## shelia (Jul 22, 2011)

Eagle said:


> This is Eagle's stall and as you can see he can only just reach out which is probably why he did minimal damage. Alby was stood by the divider as I was cleaning the first stall.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Looking at your stalls, I think it might be possible that he did not know who was over there. he already knew there was a stallion somewhere around and you did say Alby was very quiet. He may have reacted so fast that he didn't realize who it was untill it was too late to stop. Just a thought.


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## lil hoofbeats (Jul 22, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I completely disagree with the underlined. It is never anyone's fault if a horse bites them, other than if they didn't correct it the first time it happens and they allow it to happen again. I don't care if it is a stallion, mare, youngster, etc., biting is not acceptable. John Lyons has said that biting is an aggressive, not defensive, behavior, and if it happens you have 3 seconds to "kill" the horse (heads are off limits). If biting behavior is "expected" then I would be working on an attitude adjustment during feeding time. I don't tolerate horses even putting their ears back at me during feeding. If they want to do that, they will find in short order that they just won't get fed. And if they continue it, they learn that mom is the boss and to lay their ears back at me will get mom to "bite back".
> 
> No, I don't trust stallions, but I sure don't allow them to have "stallion behavior" just because they still are intact! If that was the case, nobody could do anything with them. I have the same standards for all my horses.


That's what i am scream'in!!! Last time i checked i was still at the top of the food chain, and i dont see that changing any time soon at my farm


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## MeganH (Jul 23, 2011)

This thread is very educational. Thank you for posting. I hope Eagle and your son are doing well today.


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## Eagle (Jul 24, 2011)

Today is Sunday so I will take Alby to the barn to see how Eagle behaves. I haven't let Alby come since his little accident as I wanted Eagle to chill out a bit. He has been out with a girl that is pregnant by him and even though they don't hang out together at least he has company. I will keep you posted


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## AnnaC (Jul 24, 2011)

Good luck Renee - my thoughts are with you and Alby.





Lizzie, feel free to 'visit' Wales whenever you want. Whereabouta are your Mother's family living? My apologies for the state of the website - daughter is trying to update it and getting herself in a muddle LOL!! Pictures keep 'disappearing' as she changes things, but she will get it sorted in the end.


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## lucky lodge (Jul 24, 2011)

Nathan Luszcz said:


> Its a stallion... people forget that even small stallions are still stallions. NEVER TRUST A STALLION!






Iam very sorry to hear about your little boy hope he ok now

but i agree never trust a stallion,, even some mares and geldings can snap all of a sudden.......


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## rabbitsfizz (Jul 24, 2011)

You treat a stallion _exactly_ as you would any other horse. You require the same manners and the same level of cooperation as you would from any other horse, and, you NEVER forget he is a stallion.

Consequently, whilst I have had stallions I would trust implicitly, it has always been to a given level of trust.

For example, I would trust stallion "a" with my life....unless I was lying on the ground between his hindlegs and a mare in season backed up!!

Stallions are subject to instincts that we require them to sublimate to suit us (just one reason why I would never keep a non breeding horse entire)and most of the time this is reasonable- for example in the show ring. The first time I ask my stallion to breed a mare in the middle of the ring is the time he can start "drawing" when he sees...a mare...a gelding...a lamp post...the judge- some are not picky at all.

This also means I have no right to yell at him if he sounds off when I lead him past a mare tied up where he usually breeds.

I think Eagle just got his wires crossed here, no point in saying he is evil (horses are not evil, they are true innocents) and no point in even considering selling him.

If his behaviour were to become permanent then the responsible thing to do would obviously be to have him put down quietly, at home.

After all, worst case scenario, it could be a brain tumour.

I think it is all tied up with his being confined and with his having been ill.

He was simply having a really, _really_ bad day.

Maybe he is still not feeling 100%?

I hope that all does continue to get better now, and that Alby bounces back- kids usually do.


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## txminipinto (Jul 24, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> I completely disagree with the underlined. It is never anyone's fault if a horse bites them, other than if they didn't correct it the first time it happens and they allow it to happen again. I don't care if it is a stallion, mare, youngster, etc., biting is not acceptable. John Lyons has said that biting is an aggressive, not defensive, behavior, and if it happens you have 3 seconds to "kill" the horse (heads are off limits). If biting behavior is "expected" then I would be working on an attitude adjustment during feeding time. I don't tolerate horses even putting their ears back at me during feeding. If they want to do that, they will find in short order that they just won't get fed. And if they continue it, they learn that mom is the boss and to lay their ears back at me will get mom to "bite back".
> 
> No, I don't trust stallions, but I sure don't allow them to have "stallion behavior" just because they still are intact! If that was the case, nobody could do anything with them. I have the same standards for all my horses.


I don't think you quite understood what I meant. If I have a horse in the barn that I know is aggressive for whatever reason, and not even aggressive, but maybe just oral and I get bit because I wasn't paying attention, then yes it is my fault. I am an adult. I understand equine behavior. I know that if I turn my back on a stallion I run the risk of being bit or mounted. Do I just shrug my shoulders? No. I will make that horse fear for his life for the next 3 seconds but I won't haul his butt off and dump him in a sale. My point was as an experience horseperson I take risks when I walk into the barn or stall or pasture. I know what could happen depending on the individual horse's or herd's mood at the time. I am also experienced enough to read signs and avoid being bit or kicked based on what I read from the horse. CHILDREN do not have that experience or ability. At any time I am handling a horse, in any manner, and I see signs of aggression I immediately become boss mare and put that animal back in their place. They aren't doing anything "wrong", they are just being horses but need a reminder who's in charge.

Case in point, turned a returning broodmare and a new broodmare out in the herd yesterday. That herd was not grained yesterday so they could work out their pecking order without the additional stress of grain to fight over. This morning I grained everyone. Did I just walk out into that pasture like they were all my best friends and all got along? No. In fact, I never do! My guard was up as usual, and actually more because there were new dynamics at play this morning. 2 additional mares to fight over feed. Mares were very aggitated this morning, running, pinning ears, kicking at each other etc. If any sign of aggression was made within kicking/biting distance of me THAT mare was corrected (yelling or smacking them with the scoop to get them to move away). I'll have to do that for a few days until everyone learns who eats first. Should I expect them to be all happy and respectful? No, because they are all establishing their spot in their herd and I'm the intruder, but they still have to be aware of where I am when they decide to kick another horse. A child or inexperience horseowner would label that equine behavior as "mean". They aren't being mean, they are just acting like horses. They aren't humans, do not react to stress like humans, and have only body language to communicate their intentions. Its up to US to learn their language and use it to accomplish our training. Everyone knows a horse moves away from pressure....in horse language, a horse moves away from the horse that bites or kicks them.


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## rockin r (Jul 24, 2011)

First, let me say I am sorry your son was biten, and I hope it don't keep him from the horses. As much as I love my stallion Dillion, I do not turn my attention away from him when I am in "His Space",(be that of his stall, or when he is out) especially when the mares are in Season. Stallions are very hormonal. Its like the old saying, "My dog does not bite, Or atleast he did not till now". Maybe your guy is in some sort of pain? Any mares in Season? I hope you can figure out what caused him to basically attack like that...We do not tolerate any bad behavior from Stallions esp. but that goes for all the horses. Cubby, my 3 yo grson, loves the horses. But he is NEVER allowed in the stalls/pastures with the horses. He is only allowed in the pastures if we are right there with him. When we feed, Cubby helps, but we are between him and the horse, so we can intervine if needed. This could have been MUCH worse, thank God he walked away with a bite. Hugs to your little one, and you. That would have scared the begebbers out of me!

I wanted to add that I am not critisizing by any means. These things DO happen. I have been biten more times than I can count! And it was NOT because I was not paying attention. I am glad that you are going to keep him, I have a 6 yo stallion, that for 4 yrs it was a battle between him and I. Almost everytime I walked by his stall, he was like a snake waiting to strike. When he was a 3 yo, he "ONCE" came at me in the yard, full throttle. HE took me out! I could not get up fast enough, he was kicking at me while I was on the ground, Art reacted in an instant, there was a 2x4 next to the tree, and Art whacked him on his rump. Startled him enough for me to get up, and he came right back at me, kicked me in the knee. Sounded like a gun went off. Art whacked him again and he went after Art. The 3rd whack, broke the 2x4. Art stood there in front of me as I lay on the ground like he was going to hit a home run with what was left of the 2x4. He told Shooter, "I will drop you where you stand, BRING IT"!!Shooter looked Art dead in the eye for about 15 seconds, dropped his head and walked up to Art. He did not hurt me, but I was banged up and bruised..Thank God Art was with me. After that, Shooter has NEVER even attempted to get out of line. I respect him as he is a Stallion, but he will also respect me. He would at times still get nasty when I passed his stall, but not everytime. After some time went by, we figured out it was a certain perfume that set him off. I quit wearing it, he quit behaving aggresively toward me. I did not give up on him, and now he is good Stallion. They may be small, but they have the capability to do major damage....


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## sihri (Aug 1, 2011)

I hope your son is ok and doing better now. If I understand correctly you have a new stallion, eagle ( a stallion you are not using for breeding) and a toddler son who loves and has bonded with eagle. I have a similar situation but fortunately it was not my son the stallion went after. I have 5 horses 4 miniature amd 1 paint gelding. The boys are pastured together and do well. Our gelding is very protective of our minis except for the stallion. The mare was in heat and we were going to breed her to our our stallion. The horses had been outside in the pastureall day. I brought the stallion out of the pasture to cover the mare and every time he came close to her he would turn and repeatedly kick at her. I had no idea what was going on. After a while I came up with a possible solution. I put the gelding in his stall a few hours before the time we were going to breed the mare (I wait until my son is in bed) I expected to have difficulties but he got his breeding manners back and covered our mare nicely. Sometimes horses do the strangest things and the cause can be almost anything. You have had some good advice but don't trust a stallion. All horses can be unpredictable not just stallions. Here are my suggestions. Toddlers can be just as unpredictable as the horses are. I do not allow my son in the barn or pastures unless I am with him. I do not know how close your other stallion is to Eagle but if you can keep them as far apart as you can (Eagle may be feeling challenged by the other stallion and associating that with your son. Similar to what my stallion was doing to the mare.) And lastly if you are not going to use eagle for breeding and is young enough consider gelding him. It sounds like he would be the perfect horse for your son as they seem to have previously bonded. If eagle is ypung enough he may lose some of the stallion behaviors. Only one person has mentioned is about your son being afraid of eagle. I would recommend that that you have your son groom, brush Eagle as he used to asap with you controlling the horse. So he can overcome the fear of being hurt by eagle or other horses.


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## Eagle (Aug 1, 2011)

Eagle is my original stallion who has been with me for 5 years. I have never had any problems with him other than him hating my eldest sons gelding (they are in separate pastures and I have never had an issues there) and my dog.

I have a new stallion that belongs to a friend who is having financial problems so I offered to keep him for a while for her and maybe even buy him.

This is where the problems started as I only have 1 barn. They were far enough away to not see each other but they could still hear each other. I never said that Eagle would never reproduce again, I just said that I don't go crazy over pintos (which Eagle always reproduces) so I thought I would use the new stallion for this year and see what he can produce with my mares for a change.

Stallions here have to pass a very costly test to be given approval so I don't want to geld Eagle after spending so much time and money.

Anyway since i posted my original thread i have bought the new stallion and my yearling home which is far enough from the barn and pastures where Eagle lives and he seems to have settled.

My son was not at all put off by the attack and has since been down to see Eagle under my supervision.


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## Marsha Cassada (Aug 1, 2011)

Eagle said:


> Eagle is my original stallion who has been with me for 5 years. I have never had any problems with him other than him hating my eldest sons gelding (they are in separate pastures and I have never had an issues there) and my dog.
> 
> I have a new stallion that belongs to a friend who is having financial problems so I offered to keep him for a while for her and maybe even buy him.
> 
> ...


So glad everything is sorting out. Some horse folk would like to see that stringent criteria for stallions in the USA. But that is another topic!

I am especially glad your son wasn't scared off of horses. My gelding bit my granddaugher's finger. She was feeding carrots out of a bowl and before any of the 4 of us adults standing there knew what had happened, she had held her carrot-colored fingers out to him and he bit her. Drew blood (and tears) but thankfully it wasn't serious. She would not go anywhere near the horses for 2 years. We were using a bowl as I didn't want the children feeding by hand.

However, I no longer allow any children to give my horses treats--bowl or no bowl.


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