# Depressed/Lethargic weanling...



## Calekio (Aug 28, 2008)

Prince just coming up 4 months old and was weaned on vets advise 3 weeks ago.

Before weaning he was a little terror... rearing, biting, kicking up and was really lively.... he went very quiet when weaned as i expected him to be but normally my foals have bounced back after a few days... but not him...

He was weaned with his field playmate for company before going to the baby sitter to be looked after.

He's extremely quiet and just looks so depressed... he's really lethergic, differcult to get him to walk and when turned out in the morning will just stand with his head down or aimlessly wander.... his temperature is fine, he's been wormed, he's eating and drinking (although noticed last night he was drinking more than normal...)

Today i shuffed all fields just so he could be out with my 3 other foals... in a hope they would put some spark back into him... but dispite my the older colt trying to get him to play and my 3week old colt trying to hang off him Prince just isn't interested in the slightest bit and just continues to seem very down and really not acting normal for a 4 month old foal....

Have phoned vet and am going to put it to her and see what she says.... and if need be just run some test to make sure he's not anemic or got an infection that is causing them but any ideas here?


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## mizbeth (Aug 28, 2008)

Ulcers maybe or starting one ? It is fairly common in foals as well as older horses, especially at weaning time.

B


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## kaykay (Aug 28, 2008)

Foals get ulcers very easily so I would treat as if he has one. I would also have the vet pull blood to rule out an infection. Foals can go down hill very fast so be sure and get the vet out asap Sending good thoughts!!


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## Carolyn R (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't know the reasoning behind weaning him so early (3 months is very early in my book, except in the case of an emergency with the mare, or the foal sucking the life out of her), but I know I have come across articles in the past that weaning horses early can cause stress. Stress can cause ones immune system to not be up to parr (human or animal) and can contribute to problems like ulcers and GI issues. Feeding concentrate feeds in large amounts to very young horses can also contibute to ulcers and GI upsets. Remember, what we consider to be an acceptable amount of grain may be too much for a foal to handle, esp. if it is a unique situation and the foal does not handle the high starch and sugar levels well.

*The following is all from my personal experience with a haflinger filly I purchased, the owner weaned her at 3 months




, after repeated enteristis episodes, she was finially put down. *

Gi issues, starch/sugar overloads, stress, and a very young horse can lead to problems. I would start treating him as a horse that is ulcer prone. The lethargic attitude, with the absence of a fever and absence of stool issues would make me think it is a GI issue in the early stages. IMO, I would not be giving the foal grain right now, allow it to have grass and soaked hay, until you are able to figure out the problem.

The reason with the grain... if a foal/horse has ulcer issues, they usually have GI track inflamation, feeding grain just aggrivates the inflamation, and can cause Gastro enteritis (digestive system comes to a stand still, fluids form in the stomach, feed ferments causes the break down of the good bacteria and ends up causing more inflamation, can lead to impactions, tissue breakdown and ruptures, infections). Horses may still pick at feed and play in the water, but usually it just aggrivates the situation. The digestive track usually needs a break to allow the swelling to go down so the treatment is tube for reflux, put in a cath and run fluids and electrolites, and they keep them off the feed for a few days and if severe, run antibiotics.

In any case, you are correct, this is not normal behavior for a foal, and please go with your gut feeling, even if it means that you don't share the same thoughts as your vet.

Carolyn


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## Genie (Aug 28, 2008)

I weaned three fillies at the same time to make it less stressful. THe oldest of the three started getting very distended and colicky. She would roll and stay down, and eat while lying down.

She was also lethargic looking.

I had the vet here three times, tubing in laxitives, giving banamine etc. , took blood, and we are now treating for ulcers.

She can only be out in the paddock for a short while and then needs to go back to the stall. I had her off her Mum for about three weeks but decided to put her Mum back with her.

Mum seemed pretty well dried up but lets the baby nurse and seems more satisfied with her Mum around.

We are giving her the ulcer med "oma something" it's in the barn so I can't give the correct spelling, and trying to get her feeling better.

Mum was left open since the baby is her first and the delivery was difficult.

This is our first ulcer experience and if not attentive I can see a very bad ending if you don't get things settled.


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## Calekio (Aug 28, 2008)

I hadn't thought of ulcers... but thinking back now to when my 2yr old had them due to a side affect of bute very similiar symtoms.

I've only been giving him a mall amount of feed as he doesn't eat it, but will take it out as he seems more interested in his hay than hard food.

Will get him check by vet though, and mention ulcers if they don't mention it first.

He's been weaned as was suck the life out of the mare, dipite her being on a large amount of feed 3 time a day! And as he looked so good and so big, weaning was the option for the sake of the mare. But apart from the first few days he's not been screaming or anything like i expected he would be..... and he hasn't called for him once!


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## bingo (Aug 28, 2008)

Boy you and your horses sure have had a tough time of it lately! Seems like just one thing after another. Personally I would put him back on his dam. Mini people as a whole seem to wean much to early usually to facilitate the sale of a foal. I prefer to wait at least 5 months or more to wean. They get much more from their dam then milk.


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## Floridachick (Aug 28, 2008)

I would give him back to his mommas ASAP. IMHO, he was weaned too early. It would be far less stress on everyone to return him to where he belongs.


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## jwagner (Aug 28, 2008)

Here is my two cents. Is he squeaking his teeth? This is a sure sign of ulcers. Also, watch him breath in his flanks, if he is "pumping" first thing I would do is treat for pneumonia. We use naxcel. gentocin, and ved-hist, hit him hard. A lot of vets will argue about the ved-hist, but it helps them breath easier while the anti-biotics work. Even if you wanted to I am sure the dam is dry by now.


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 28, 2008)

Our vets recommended weaning foals around 3-4 months of age, the milk the mare's are producing at the time really isn't providing any nutrition to the foals, more of a security blanket.. While I do agree that foals need to stay on the dam as long as possible for behavior/boundary purposes, I do think that we will be weaning around that time range instead of waiting for the 5 month age we weaned at before.. Now the reasoning behind this time range is because at that 3-4 month of lactation the mare is prone to hypocalcemia, (severe drop in calcium), having just lost a mare due to this and seeing her go through all that she did, I'm willing to pull the babies that "young" and get them out with each other and/or our gelding, then risk losing another mare..


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## Field-of-Dreams (Aug 28, 2008)

We tried weaning at 3 months, plus bought some foals that were weaned at 3-4 months- never again. They seem to get a pot-belly no matter what I feed, lethargic, unthrifty looking.

I looked at my yearlings the other day. The three we had last year look awesome- fine, in shape, bellies tucked up. They were weaned at 6 months. The one colt we traded for has the worst pot-belly. He looks awful. He was weaned at 4 months. And they all get the same food.

I would put him back with momma. He just might need the MENTAL support, even if he doesn't need the physical support of her milk.

Lucy


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## Calekio (Aug 28, 2008)

I don't think putting him back on mum will help, as said before mare is now dried up and finally her stomach is slowly starting to come up and she is getting life back in (she had severly stretch the tendon under her stomach and feeding a foal was making it worse as she was quite litually skin and bones!) We don't normally wean though until 5months.

Vet is seeing him tomorrow, can't see him any earlier unfortantly and as i don't want another vet as i trust her judgement over the other vet i could see, so she is fitting me in.

We have had rotton luck this year, if its not one thing its another!!


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## MountainMeadows (Aug 28, 2008)

I think we have all been in your shoes at one time or another, and if you haven't been, probably will be eventually. It seems that the foals who are the biggest little terrors really have a tough time at weaning -- no matter what the age. For my 2 cents worth I would suggest the following:

De-worm again, with something very safe & gentle(Strongid) - and then again in a week or 2 with a different product (personally I would use Equimax or Ivermectin GOLD to get rid of tapeworms) -- reason: stress can cause a worm outbreak.

Go with the ulcer meds -- safe precaution and won't harm him at all. Slowly wean him off after about 2 weeks if his attitude has improved.

Use Calf Manna with his feed (might have to hand feed it to get him started). I know that this is a hot topic and you will get a lot of people who say this is not correct, but I personally believe that minis need more support from protien & calcium than their full-size counterparts do and the additional protien & calcium in Calf Manna can really help him at this time --*ALL* my weanlings are on Calf Manna from 1 month prior to weaning up until they are a year old. Don't go with any of the substitutes even tho they say they are the same - there is just something about Calf Manna that really seems to do the trick.

Talk to your vet about Lixotinic - is a a prescription (but very reasonable) and helps with anemia and other metabolic/mineral deficiencies that occur at weaning. Some people use Red Cell, but I think the results from Lixotinic are really way worth using the prescription over the over the counter product - you should see pretty obvious results in less than a week.

If you can, separate your babies for their grain/Calf Manna/Lixotinic feeding - that way you know for sure that each baby that needs the extra support is actually getting the extra "goodies" you are adding to his feed. They can all go back together for group feeding hay - of course you kind of have to overfeed so that you make sure that all the foals get enough and that the "bully" doesn't push the quieter ones to the back corner!

Anyway, after 25 years in minis this is what works pretty well for me -- good luck, I hope your baby is back to his fiesty little self soon -- I just hate seeing the little ones depressed!

Stacy


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## Lucky-C-Acres-Minis (Aug 28, 2008)

> It seems that the foals who are the biggest little terrors really have a tough time at weaning -- no matter what the age.


Boy do I have to really agree with you on this one!! Our little appy TJ thought he was "big man on campus" when he was still on his dam, started weaning him and his buddy Royal (Royal is 5 months, TJ 4 months) and TJ is being the biggest baby about it and his mom too! When he was on his dam they could have cared less about each other, TJ was too busy running around terrorizing the other mares/foals while Tango was off grazing, but now that they're seperated they're throwing hissy fits..


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## Floridachick (Aug 28, 2008)

The baby needs the mare to make him "feel" better. It doesn't matter that she has stopped lactating. He just needs her.


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## Calekio (Aug 28, 2008)

Floridachick - I am taking onboard the advice, but i just don't think putting him back on the mare will help.... in fact could do more damage as she has dried up and is finally taking some of that feed for herself... she still looks like a hat rack and she is very differcult to get weight on and so getting weight on her before winter hits is a big thing.... she is already on enough feed to make a TB fat!

Back to Prince. I de-wormed him a few days ago, just in case it was that, also had him on a pro-biotic to see if that helped but no joy. Will talk to vet bout ulcer meds as don't think i can get it without a prescription... never heard of calf manna before... so will go on a google hunt in a min....

Fingers crossed we can find something here to help him out.... this evening my mare with her 3 week old foal were out on the lawn and he was stood by the gate (dummy foal could find his mum in the group... and was panicking... yard owner ended up pulling the pair out... lol) he's really latched onto this mare... maybe coz she was in with him when he was a baby up until the time she had her own baby 3 weeks ago and Prince tried to squish him..... so trying to keep him with them.


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## wildoak (Aug 28, 2008)

I'd go with ulcers too, just from experience. I have one I weaned nearly 3 weeks ago who is doing "okay" but still isn't himself. He's going on meds too, just to be on the safe side.

Sometimes there are medical reasons to wean early - I have a mare who gets seriously pulled down nursing a foal and hers we have to wean on the early side. Just fyi, had blood pulled on her last year and found she was anemic. Once we got the colt weaned and got her on Red Cell in addition to upping her feed (again) she plumped up nicely. She's not a mare I can breed every year, it just takes too much out of her.

Jan


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## Candice (Aug 28, 2008)

I had a little guy do this this year. He went down literally overnight too. Doc came out and ran his bloodwork and aside from being mildly anemic he was the picture of health on paper. His feed rations were correct. Doc just had me add some red cell and for a couple of weeks there was no change in him and then blamo overnight he bounced back. Its really strange. Got me a little paranoid about weaning my last two.

Hope your little guy comes around soon. It is so hard seeing them like that and feeling so darn helpless.


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## Calekio (Aug 29, 2008)

UPDATED:

Vet has checked his blood work and no anemia, infection or inflamation.

Been put on ulcer medicine and see how it goes... it could or could not be ulcers but she did say that if it is ulcers he sound perk up pretty quick and we'll know by monday.

If no joy then re-look on monday....

Even she commented on how quiet and poorly he looked... as she saw him before... rearing, boxing and having to be pinned to the floor last time she looked at him! So to see him like this even she can stop something isn't right...

Googled calf manna... all i can find in uk... in chinchilla food.....


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## MountainMeadows (Aug 29, 2008)

I'm sorry Calekio - I thought you were here in the USA - not sure if Calf Manna is available in the UK. I really swear by it, a lot of people think it is too high in protien & calcium, but I really don't feed that much (1/4 cup) and it makes all the difference in the world. Also lixotinic (prescription Red Cell) will really help your little guy perk up - even if his blood work doesn't show him to be anemic, it still has a great result and is a huge help during stressful situations.

Good luck with your colt, hoping that the ulcer meds do the trick.

Stacy


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## Kitty (Aug 29, 2008)

Do you have Zantac over the counter there?? It is no longer a prescription drug and works great with horses. My vet recommends one tablet a day for miniatures- foals to adults with abdominal problems. I put mine on it when stressed.


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## Carolyn R (Aug 29, 2008)

Kitty said:


> Do you have Zantac over the counter there?? It is no longer a prescription drug and works great with horses. My vet recommends one tablet a day for miniatures- foals to adults with abdominal problems. I put mine on it when stressed.


My vet prescibes the same thing I think the max. tablet mg available is 150mg (1 tablet a day for an adult mini), You can also buy tablets in lower doses, the generic name is ranitidine, maybe you will have some better luck looking under that name in your pharmacy.

Carolyn


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## Hosscrazy (Aug 29, 2008)

Ditto on the Zantac - I use 2 tablets of Zantac 75 (150 mg. total).

Liz R.


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## Calekio (Aug 30, 2008)

We get zantac over here, so i will try him on that. Give him one 150mg tablet a day yer? Or lower amount?

Oh and vet also agreed putting him back on mum proberly wouldn't help and would make things harder for next time around when i have to wean him again.

He seems to be hanging around with my mare and 3 week old foal a lot... Locket is insistant that Prince MUST play with him... or he'll become a climbing frame for him!




So hopefully.. he can perky him up once he starts feeling a bit better as well. Fingers crossed.


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## Calekio (Sep 2, 2008)

UPDATED:

Well the ulcer medicine has had no effect.... and starting to go off his feed a little bit (will pick at it more than eat it)

Last resort.. we have put mum back with him, she won't let him suckle with will spend time with it.

However this still doesn't seem to be working... i thought i'd leave him out last night.... but he wanted to be with his stable mate... then he wanted to go out.... then he wanted back in the stable... he just doesn't know what he wants and in the end i put him and his stable mate out, unfortantly i can't stable him with his friend AND have him with mum.... and mum would kick the heck out of my yearling....

And when out..... still didn't know what he wanted...

Vet is puzzled as no physically signs to go on except he seems really depressed, could do more tests but don't know what to test for that hasn't come back normal.....

I'm going to try him on herbal stuff for depression... but if that doesn't work.... i'm stumped...


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## mizbeth (Sep 2, 2008)

Has the VET ran his Igg? Also I would try gastroguard. I think gastroguard will work quicker on him.

Good luck,

Beth


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## Calekio (Sep 2, 2008)

Yup vet has ran a number of blood tests including that. He's currently on Gastrogaurd with no affect...

Have just brought a herbal remedy that i for depression.... so am going to try that with him and see if that has any change...


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## mizbeth (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi

What are you feeding him? Perhaps a change in feed, babies love sweet feed. Maybe some omelene or something similar will encourage him to eat. You may also try giving him about 3 cc's of Kayro Syrup, that will help stimulate his appetite and also give him some energy.

Good luck,

Beth


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## Carolyn R (Sep 2, 2008)

How are his gut sounds and manure output?

Carolyn


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## MountainMeadows (Sep 2, 2008)

I would really look into getting him on Lixotinic - apart from the iron that it contains, it also has a lot of B vitamins and often B vitamins will help stimulate the appetite. You could ask you vet for a B vitamin complex injection, and then get him started on the Lixotinic, I would bet that along with Gastroguard that you would see a big difference in less than a week, but you are probably on at least 2 months before he is really back to being a happy, playful baby. Just my opinion, having been thru it in the past -- I'm really not trying to scare you.

Stacy


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## mizbeth (Sep 2, 2008)

Lixotinic - I was reading somewhere, where this is the prescription "red cell"?

I have also heard that horses with ulcers should not be getting red cell? I believe my CA., vet told me that. He was very good, but this information could be old now as this was in the 1999-2000 when he told me that.

I have always had very good luck with gastroguard. They actually perk up and start acting themselves again within 24-48 hours.

I hope you find the answer for you baby...it is so sad when they are sick, they cannot tell us what is wrong.

Beth


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## MountainMeadows (Sep 2, 2008)

Hi Beth,

Lixotinic is a lot like Red Cell - and used to be only available by prescription, but now it looks like you can buy it on-line without an Rx. However, Lixotinic seems to have far better & faster results that Red Cell - it has a lot more vitamins & minerals in it than Red Cell and for some reason seems to metabolize in the system far better. In talking to several vets over the years, they all seem to kind of "poo poo" the results of RedCell as compared to Lixotinic and from my personal experience I have never found Red Cell to work anywhere near as fast or with such encouraging results - so for me, I just go to Lixotinic and get right to the root of the problem -- I have seen really poor weanlings bounce back in as little as a week where on Red Cell I didn't get the same results in over a month.

Just not sure if Lixotinic is available overseas.

Stac


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## Calekio (Sep 2, 2008)

Lixotinic certainly isn't one i've heard of.... .which makes me think we might not get it in thsi country....



certainly when i goggled a few uk vet meds sites its not on them... but i will ask by vet.

I've got him on a blandish feed.. but put a bit of sugerbeet in it... he's not back with mum full time and (unfortantly for us) is back suckling again (but we'll deal with her later... as long as i can get her to hold her weight with him suckling again...) he's seems much more egar to eat mums food than his... and even when i give him some of her's in his own bucket... still prefers mums....

Gut sounds and droppings are perfectly fine, temperature is normal as well.... in phyiscally symtoms he's a picture of a health... just very down and not himself..


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## Windhaven (Sep 2, 2008)

I would get a tube of gastorguard from your vet or order Ulcer Guard from one of the horse supplier catalogs. This will work faster and better on the ulcers than the Zantac. Then keep him on Zantac as preventative after you are done with the tube of Ulcer meds.

Good luck.


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## Calekio (Sep 2, 2008)

Windhaven - He's on gastrogaurd... has been since friday with no effect... i have the zantac but not sure... can i give him both at the same time???


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## SBrown (Sep 2, 2008)

We had an outside mare with a foal being bred to one of our stallions. The mare had a darling black pinto colt who was several months old when they arrived. The mare and foal were with us about 3 months. From the time he arrived he never acted like a normal foal. He was quiet and didn't run and play with the other babies and he laid down a lot. I found out later that before he was a year old he colicked and died. After an necropsy, it was found he died from an obstruction caused by an enterolith. An enterolith begins when something lodges in the horse's intestine and a stone begins to form around it leading to increasing discomfort. This can be anything from a small stone or piece of wire to horse hair or baling twine. This "stone" caused the obstruction that eventually led to his death. I don't know how something like this can be detected but it might be worth asking your vet about.


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## bfogg (Sep 3, 2008)

Can I help?

Bonnie


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## HGFarm (Sep 3, 2008)

Bonnie may be able to help you- she certainly brought some answers my way this summer!!! It's worth a try!

I had a colt that was like this.... never coughed, no fever, no symptoms at all except being lethargic when he should have been all over the place. He had pneumonia and would have been lost had I not spent the Saturday outside doing yard work, and he was 'helping' me- and I only heard him cough once, but it was an icky 'wet' cough. Put him on antibiotics immediately- and in 3 days he was playing with his food bucket- the FIRST time I had seen him play since I bought him!!! By the time he finished his medicine in 12 days, he was a live wire and climbing the walls- like he should have been.

I was told if I had not caught it when I did, he would have been lost!


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## mizbeth (Sep 4, 2008)

Hello

I have heard good things about Bonnie. I have also had an animal communicator "talk to one of my horses one time", I cannot tell you how interesting and TRUE that conversation was.

It would be worth a try, and could save his life.

Beth


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## Calekio (Sep 4, 2008)

I have a very open mind on communication type things, have pm'd Bonnie back.... hoping she can help.

He seems a little bit perkier..... very tiny bit but certainly the ears are forward more and he sees more alert.... i'm still bringing him into the stable at night, with mum and he's out with the herd during the day.... not sure what the best to do with him regarding stabling is but he certainly seems more alert to go out.... so... fingers crossed...


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## Carolyn R (Sep 5, 2008)

Just wanted to bump this up and see how your foal was doing.

Carolyn


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## Genie (Sep 6, 2008)

How's the little guy today???????


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## Calekio (Sep 6, 2008)

Still a bit hit and miss..

Got some very good and helpful info from bonnie... and i'll be ringing vet again on Monday with new info and asking her about looking at his teeth.

He's a bit up and down... his mum when running today after another mare and he shot off after her.. nice to see a bit of energy in him but didn't last long... his gone extremely picking with feeding as well... only wants soft feed now... and not doing much grazing....

Here he is having a cuddle moment when i was halter training 1 month old locket.... (who wants Prince to be his playmate and hangs off him!!!)


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## WLS (Sep 6, 2008)

Sure sounds like foal protein deficiency to me. I had a severe case of this 8 years ago when we almost lost our Nevada. But our own stupid mistake, bought her at three months old at an auction sale. Foals should neither be weaned at three months nor at auctions in my opinion. She was the frisky filly, who went down hill very fast once we got her home, she went pot belly, hair went dry, she just stood around and hung her head and had no energy. I called my vet when it was obvious something was very wrong, vet did a blood test and she was protein deficient from being weaned too young. We gave her vitamin shots daily for weeks, put her on high protein foal feed and even fed her small handfuls of alfalfa hay. Sounds like a lot of feed for a young filly, but after about six weeks, she recovered to her frisky personality and is one of our best broodmares today. I highly recommend not to wean foals too young unless the mare is in life/death situation. Best of luck to your foal.


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## Genie (Sep 7, 2008)

WLS's information makes sense to me.

I have always weaned at 3 months, but since I had the problem with ulcers on my filly foal, I have changed my way of thinking and unless the mare is in dire straits I am going to give them longer with mum.

Really hope your baby perks up. He looks very sweet.


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## Calekio (Sep 8, 2008)

Well this is the last foal for this mare... as she just can't cope with feeding a foal and herself. I have 3 other babies here at the mo... 2 of which will be weaned at about 5 months... the other at 7 months unless mum goes poor as he is a winter baby so i'll wait till the spring to take him off.

One of the older babies though i'm watching his mother... as she's has started to self wean him now at 4 months..... she is beginning to be rather horrid to him and kicking him off her.... her both both back legs at feed time last night and she flipped him on the ground OH! i will be feeding them seperate from now on... not even in the same field as this was with there own buckets! OH!

Edited to add:

Vet checked protein levels which were all within the normal rates...


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## rabbitsfizz (Sep 8, 2008)

I never do feed foals with mares, right form ten days they are taken away to feed....at first the mare is just tied up in the round pen and the foals hang out together and eat what they want...Tip here, I use a kiddies sand tray I got at the Car Boot, it is raised up off the ground, has two compartments, it did my foals right through till last month when they got tied up to eat their own feeds.

By this time of year (real weaning next week at four and a half months (youngest foal) to five and and half months(oldest) ) they are all eating a "proper" feed and standing tied up to do so, with the mares now off grazing a field away.

Next week they just will not go back.

If I have a mare that loses ground (first time ever this year) she comes in with the foals, gets tied up and fed...feed them enough, they put on weight, seems simple to me





The younger stallion, who is the sire of all but one foal this year, comes in with the foals and is fed as he does lose weight...all that worrying about child support





I find feeding foals with mares leads to the kind of behaviour you have seen...feed related aggression, which is never a good thing, and anyway, my broodmare are not routinely supplemented as I have too much grass as it is!!


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