# Heindl show carts



## MiLo Minis (Feb 25, 2011)

I was looking at Heindl show carts in Ohio. Does anyone on here have any experience with them good or bad? Are they well balanced? Well made?


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## Christie (Feb 25, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> I was looking at Heindl show carts in Ohio. Does anyone on here have any experience with them good or bad? Are they well balanced? Well made?


I have no experience with their show carts but I do have a mini training cart made by them. I LOVE IT!!! Very well balanced and very well made, IMO.






I had a Frontier EE cart and didn't like it, so my opinion may not be that of most. With our hilly and rough terrain, I alway felt like I was going to tip in the Frontier, never actually did but I had a few closer than I like 'almosts". The Heindl training cart is a very comfortable ride. In fact the cart exceeded my expectations.


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## Carriage (Feb 27, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> I was looking at Heindl show carts in Ohio. Does anyone on here have any experience with them good or bad? Are they well balanced? Well made?


I would have thought that you could tell these kinds of things from pictures, as you have in the past.....

Seriously it sounds like a well made and supported rig.

Bb


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 27, 2011)

Carriage said:


> I would have thought that you could tell these kinds of things from pictures, as you have in the past.....
> 
> Seriously it sounds like a well made and supported rig.
> 
> Bb


Bob just because I don't endorse a cart that I feel is quite potentially dangerous doesn't mean that I can look at a photo or two and see that it is a truly well made, well balanced cart. It does sound like a decent vehicle but unlike your Hyperbike I have no experience with a Heindl at all - haven't even seen one in the flesh so to speak. I can see that with this cart I don't have to put myself into an unusually dangerous position to mount it.


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## hairicane (Feb 27, 2011)

We have owned a couple of the heindl training roadster type carts and have loved them. My husband is 6 foot 3" tall and all legs could drive in that cart and be comfortable. We sold our A sized driving horses and moved up to Bs. We sold the carts and wouldnt u know it now I have an A sized nice driving mare. Im sure I would love one of their show carts.


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 28, 2011)

hairicane said:


> We have owned a couple of the heindl training roadster type carts and have loved them. My husband is 6 foot 3" tall and all legs could drive in that cart and be comfortable. We sold our A sized driving horses and moved up to Bs. We sold the carts and wouldnt u know it now I have an A sized nice driving mare. Im sure I would love one of their show carts.


Thanks Christie and Hairicane! Sounds like they do a good job on their training type carts so hopefully they put as much or more into their show carts. I have gone ahead and made plans to pickup the cart I have been looking at - I will let you know what it's like once I try it out. Thanks again, Lori


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## keely2682 (Feb 28, 2011)

i had one of these carts in b sized with 24" closed wheels. it was well made and rode smooth but was a little tall for my taste. it isn't quite as nicely finished as a houghton or jerald but it is a very nice cart and will show well at worlds or nationals.

Double Diamond is selling these as their black diamond show carts.


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## keely2682 (Feb 28, 2011)

I have 1 of their training carts and LOVE it


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 28, 2011)

Thanks Keely. I went on Double Diamond's site and couldn't find it, did see where they had a "Black Diamond" cart but couldn't find where they had it for sale. I am looking for an A cart because we already have Kim's Jerald for the bigger horses so hopefully this one will fit the bill and will go to Nationals.


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## Carriage (Feb 28, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> Bob just because I don't endorse a cart that I feel is quite potentially dangerous doesn't mean that I can look at a photo or two and see that it is a truly well made, well balanced cart. It does sound like a decent vehicle but unlike your Hyperbike I have no experience with a Heindl at all - haven't even seen one in the flesh so to speak. I can see that with this cart I don't have to put myself into an unusually dangerous position to mount it.


My apologies Miss Lori. I could have sworn that you said you evaluated our rig via pictures that a friend sent you. I'll need to go back and verify that in the archives to be sure. In that post you made several assumptions that were also not true. But the tidbit I was searching for became obvious. It all seemed to boil down to mounting and dismounting. As this is something we cover in full on our website, in person or by phone and by all of our folk showing and using the rig, this revelation by you as to your safety concern made it a moot point and most importantly a safety concern of a personal nature. This is why I did not respond at the time. I merely wanted to know what the issue was because safety is the biggest concern we have for the horse first and then the driver.

Perhaps as a "disclaimer" you could word it as "I am uncomfortable with..." vs. the blanket statement of "its unsafe". because obviously it is not unsafe. And even though the mount/dismount procedure is different, a GREAT many more sales than you give us credit for CLEARLY demonstrate that the procedure is not "unusually dangerous" as you claim. It IS different and requires a higher level of training to be a safe rig for horse and driver specific to mount/dismount. That's why we refuse sales to beginner drivers and horses. Had you called me you would have known this.

This time around, I commend you for seeking input from users of the Heindle. Also calling the mfr and asking questions, can be another source of information to you. I would like to think that most of us are open and honest in our dealings and questions, even hard ones are welcome.

It does sound as though you have chosen an excellent rig and I look forward to hearing about how you like it and adventures you have with it.





Bb

Graham Carriage Works

www.grahamcarriageworks.com


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 28, 2011)

I did initially evaluate your cart from photos. It was while studying the photos that I began to wonder how the heck you got in the thing. I asked and was told the method of mounting and dismounting was to get in the shafts between the horse and the frame. I have since seen a couple of them in person and still maintain that they are less safe than most carts.

The hyperbike was a neat concept and I looked into them for myself out of interest. It was only when I realized that the seat back is upright and can only lay forward and the only way to enter the cart was to get INTO the shafts with the horse that I thought - ARE YOU INSANE???



My horses are taught a good solid whoa and I could get into or out of the cart a thousand times without incident but that one bee or dog or blowing garbage could easily get you killed when your horse bolts and drags you hung up on the cart and mixed up in his heels and those kind of things you can't train for. No horse is going to stop easily with you banging around under there.



I just hope that whoever it happens to LIVES to regret it.

That kind of thing could also happen when you are getting into any cart but with most carts if you are stepping in and the horse bolts you are going to go arse over teakettle BACKWARDS OUT of the cart or sit down suddenly. If you have prepped your reins properly before mounting and end up in the seat you are going to be able to stop your horse fairly quickly and without incident hopefully. If you get pitched out of the cart you suffer a few bruises and can likely easily drive again although your horse may or may not depending on whether or not you hung onto your reins and can get him stopped fairly quickly. Yes mounting or dismounting any cart is the most dangerous time but why would you want to compound the danger by such an unsafe method of entry.

I am glad to see that you have added a couple disclaimers to your website regarding how your horse MUST be trained to stand quietly and they aren't considered a "training cart" and I like to think that perhaps my thoughts on the hyperbike helped you to decide to do that.



Hopefully the disclaimers will make at least some people think twice. The thing that worries me is that I have seen it recommended many times to beginners here on the forum and they don't necessarily know what to think.

I don't know you personally but you seem like a nice man and you have built an interesting little vehicle. If you ever come up with a better seat arrangement that will allow entry from the rear so that you are left on the ground in case of emergency I would be interested in trying it out but until then......"I am VERY uncomfortable with the method of entry...."


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## RhineStone (Feb 28, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> Yes mounting or dismounting any cart is the most dangerous time... I am VERY uncomfortable with the method of entry...."


I have probably said this before, but I find those highly popular mini easy entry carts to be highly unsafe, ESPECIALLY with their smooth vinyl seats. My mom has one of those carts, and I struggle with how to drive the horse and not slide all over the seat at the same time without the use of some vinyl shelf liner under my butt. And there is virtually nothing to put your feet on to brace against. Never mind that the ride stinks, as well. Every major bump is applied to the horse's mouth and his body. How anyone gets any effective training done in them is beyond me. There is NOTHING that will keep you IN the cart!



When you don't have to worry about you moving around the cart, you can concentrate on teaching the horse!

Easy entry is also easy exit! You are _almost_ always safer if you can stay with the cart than if you are ejected. And staying with the cart is ALWAYS safer for spectators, as a loose horse with a weapon attached is definitely a safety hazard! If you can't stop the horse from the box, you sure aren't going to do it by getting out of the cart. I have seen some great horsemen stop a horse after being dumped from the cart, but I have also seen novice drivers watch their cart get trashed while the horse runs loose because they "let go".

I will never go back to a flat vinyl seat. It better be cloth or have the security of a marathon wedge-like seat. It's like having a car with air conditioning. Once you have it, you will never go back. Give me a Hyperbike over those crappy easy entries anyday, but then again, I'm not a green driver...

I know of some big horse carts that require you to step on a foot pad on the axle, swing your leg over the back of the seat or bring your foot up between the wheel and the seat. THAT is a disaster of an entry method. Last year, I was a groom for a George IV Phaeton, and had to somehow crawl into the dickey seat while squeezing between the seat and the hood that was down, and try to get my tails smooth at the same time. Once, the horse moved off at the wrong time. I know why the groom's boots are the tall "hunt type" ones, because my calf got smacked by the wheel! The George IV is a four-wheel vehicle that requires that the driver mount in between the wheels, as most four-wheelers. You are SOL if the horse moves off while you are there. Actually, anytime you mount in front of the wheel, you are risking getting ran over. If you mount from the rear, you risk the horse moving off before you can get settled! My point is that all carts/vehicles have their inerrant risks.

The best thing to do? Teach your horse to stand well, as Lori mentioned. Teach your horse to trust you even if something bad happens (bee sting, etc.). Don't jack with your horse so that he doesn't trust you. Don't "fuss" when entering a cart. Get on with it and get seated as quickly as possible no matter how you get in. Get good equipment. Get educated!

Myrna (who wrote more for the masses than for Lori....)


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## keely2682 (Feb 28, 2011)

i'll preface this with a comment on my disappointment that this forum is being used to attack each other,

then move on to comment on the above OFF TOPIC posts (reminder- this thread was about a show cart not a hyperbike),

and finally get on my soap box to have a turn ranting





i would LOVE to have a hyperbike!!

i find it no less safe to mount than so many other carts on the market today.

unless you buy an easy entry (which is much less safe once you are in it), you have to step over or into almost any cart.

Being close to the horse without a crossbar is traditional (and not seen as particularly unsafe) on most race bikes and sulkies.

With any cart, you will have moments entering/exiting where you are less safe than if you were seated in the cart driving.

i agree with the statement that it is not a beginner or training vehicle

and that the horse should be trained to stand for mounting and dismounting

but

*SHOULDN'T ANY HORSE WE HOOK TO A CART AND CALL BROKE BE TRAINED TO STAND STILL WHILE WE GET IN THE CART!*

this is one of my pet peeves with mini people in particular





at shows (all the way up to nationals) i see way too many "broke" horses who will not whoa and stand

headers are a great safety but shouldn't be required to keep a horse still or lead it to the ring

i attend cde shows and see multi hitches pulling carriages standing still without headers

why can't/ won't many mini trainers teach a horse to stand?!

its a safety issue *REGARDLESS OF THE VEHICLE*

a fidgeting horse while hitching or mounting can quickly lead to a catastrophic accident





even my most hot chariot horse, who was previously used for harness racing,

understands that she has to stay still while you mount and dismount her cart.

i have no exceptions for anything in my barn:

if it is a broke horse, i expect it to stand stock still until i say otherwise!

i have far too many children and handicap people come drive with me to tolerate misbehavior and/or inadequate training


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## RhineStone (Feb 28, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> SHOULDN'T ANY HORSE WE HOOK TO A CART AND CALL BROKE BE TRAINED TO STAND STILL WHILE WE GET IN THE CART!
> 
> this is one of my pet peeves with mini people in particular
> 
> ...


.Completely agree. I think the reason why mini people tolerate this is the same reason that drew them to minis in the first place. They are "cute". If it was a 16HH warmblood that was wiggling around, it wouldn't be so cute.....

Minis are still horses.....



...the sooner people who drive them quit treating them as "pets" instead of performance horses, the better. And the better for the perception of the breed to the rest of the horse world.

Myrna


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## hobbyhorse23 (Feb 28, 2011)

I'm with you, Keely, and love Myrna's interesting examples of mounting risks in traditional carriages.



What a fascinating discussion!

I didn't know better when I first had Kody; it literally never occurred to me that a horse could be taught to essentially groundtie with a cart attached. I assumed you needed a header or must be actively holding them still with the reins. It was a shock to me when I took my first formal lesson at the Driving Training Center that they put the Fjord on a Whoa, Stand and proceeded to hitch up. Period. They told that harnessed horse to whoa in the middle of the driveway and walked away and got the cart out of the barn and walked back up and put the shafts in the tugs. Then they took ahold of the reins again just for safety but that horse was expected to stand like a rock until told otherwise and did so quite cheerfully. My eyes were like this:



. She told me that there is no excuse for a driving horse to _require_ a header and if my horse wasn't at that level yet I should get him there in a hurry. Once I knew what I should be working towards I had him trained in a week but it hadn't occurred to me until then that I should be doing that. I expected him to have manners but not to stand still without anyone "reminding" him about it.

I've been working on Whoa, Stand with Turbo in the context of obstacle and halter work for over a year now but last week he got his first notice that I expect those lessons to carry over to driving. He did so well ground-driving that I stopped on the spot to unharness him as a reward and decided to begin as I mean to go on- I put him on a Whoa Stand and expected him to plant himself and not move while I removed the surcingle and lines. It took him a few moments to get that he still has to stand even if I'm touching him and fussing with him but he got it and my two year old stood there like a rock, loose, while equipment he was wearing for the first time was removed.







> I think the reason why mini people tolerate this is the same reason that drew them to minis in the first place. They are "cute".


I see this more in the show Shetlands, Hackneys, Saddlebreds and Arabs than in the straight minis. Trainers ignore it in the minis because it's so easy to just pick them up when they flip over



but for the bigger horses it's that belief that a hot horse is a good show horse.

We train our horses to do this stuff- to anticipate leaping forward when the person hits the seat or to stand quietly, to blow up and be firey and almost run the header over or to not require a header at all. People like to see that sort of behavior in a show horse because it's, well, showy.



It's also a pain in the rear! It's like allowing race horses to bite because correcting them would "break their spirit." Riiiiight.... You've already taught them to turn it on for the show ring and turn it off in the barn. Why not teach them to turn it on only after they're allowed to move?

Leia


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## Carriage (Feb 28, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> I did initially evaluate your cart from photos. It was while studying the photos that I began to wonder how the heck you got in the thing. I asked and was told the method of mounting and dismounting was to get in the shafts between the horse and the frame. I have since seen a couple of them in person and still maintain that they are less safe than most carts.
> 
> The hyperbike was a neat concept and I looked into them for myself out of interest. It was only when I realized that the seat back is upright and can only lay forward and the only way to enter the cart was to get INTO the shafts with the horse that I thought - ARE YOU INSANE???
> 
> ...


I am glad that you got to actually see a rig as this is better than looking at pictures. While getting closer to the ideal way to form an opinion it still falls short imo (disclaimer).

Also, fear of a possibility tends to lock one in place vs preparing and training for all hazards as well as that possibility.

As we all grow and learn, we should be improving. While the bike came out quite some time ago it was time in grade that taught me how and whom this vehicle would work well with. That was several years ago and was included with our new site some 4 years ago. So I don't think I can credit you with that change, but I would if it had been you because I learn all kinds of stuff from all kinds of people.

"The thing that worries me is that I have seen it recommended many times to beginners here on the forum and they don't necessarily know what to think."

Well if it is done, it is not done with my blessing. Also, in the end, I have the final say as to who buys my products. I simply would defer the sale to such time as I felt that they were ready. I do it all the time. It permeates the entire process. I have turned down MANY sales for this and other ethical issue's over a good many years. Having ones character impugned unfairly tends to get ones back up. I guess the direction is generally better when your creation is refereed to as "interesting" as opposed "that thing" or my personal favorite "that birthing the mini look" However its not just interesting, it's a game changer completely. The positive effect for the horse is the baby being thrown out here and to be right honest, that ain't fair to the horse (IMO)

Yes I try at all times to be a nice man because I answer to a much BIGGER man. You do make assumptions about me and what I do that are misplaced and in some cases just false. I really haven't had to work for the reputation I have. It is simply who I am.

However Miss Keely is correct this was about the Heindl(sp?) and should remain so.

I really do think you have chosen a great vehicle and I do look forward to hearing about it. Did you mention color schemes you are considering? What colors are you putting to?

Bb

Graham Carriage Works

www.grahamcarriageworks.com

My attempt


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## Carriage (Feb 28, 2011)

why can't/ won't many mini trainers teach a horse to stand?!

its a safety issue REGARDLESS OF THE VEHICLE

a fidgeting horse while hitching or mounting can quickly lead to a catastrophic accident





Well said Miss Keely,

MANY times training issues are misplaced and blamed on things that have no relevance to the core issue, that being, training or a lack thereof. If your horse is not standing after you have given the command to stand, this is a training issue and should not be blamed on anything else the (1 in a 1000 thing aside).

Whether in a Heindl or any other rig the proper thing is to have the horse reliably stand. It is the proper thing to do.

Bb


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## RhineStone (Feb 28, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> We train our horses to do this stuff- to anticipate leaping forward when the person hits the seat or to stand quietly, to blow up and be firey and almost run the header over or to not require a header at all. People like to see that sort of behavior in a show horse because it's, well, showy.
> 
> 
> 
> It's also a pain in the rear! You've already taught them to turn it on for the show ring and turn it off in the barn. Why not teach them to turn it on only after they're allowed to move?



They should take some lessons from Boyd Exell. Watching his (and other WEG drivers') horses at WEG proved that you can teach them to "turn it on" and "turn it off". And one of the WEG drivers had this awesome gray who was just explosive across the arena! It gave you chills to watch!

Myrna
[/QUOTE]


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## keely2682 (Feb 28, 2011)

I am a firm believer that horses can be trained to "turn it on" ONLY when requested. My horses are good examples of this.

Lightning can go from single to country to western pleasure just by how you drive him.

And I'm not talking about just switching classes but having a truly competitive horse (on a national level) in all 3 divisions.

I can take him to an ADS fun show and run him through multiple classes of cones and hazards and in between expect him to babysit (walk, trot slowly and calmly on a loose rein) with my paraplegic friend who is a novice driver, then pick it up again when I get back in the cart for my next class.

At Nationals one year I was galloping around one of the back arenas with him one afternoon and another driver commented that he wasn't my chariot horse. I responded that no, he was my western horse. They could not believe that a horse so hot and so amped who would run flat out would show in western. I asked them to watch me for a minute. I ran accross the arena yelled whoa without pulling the reins and then said trot easy. Lightening went from a gallop to a whoa then jogged off on a loose rein with his head level. The lady was amazed. Lol

Tippy, a former harness racer, turns it on and off even better than lightening.

She went from calm and docile in the PMC class with a novice paraplegic driver to amped for chariot on command. I only had a tack hold between the classes- no time to even drive a circle to check my tack.

She is happy to mosey along and give cart rides, fall asleep hooked to her cart watching the horseshow, or run a cones course.

You can train them to be what you want them to be when you want it but it takes a ton of training.


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## CZP1 (Feb 28, 2011)

Though this thread was originally about a show cart then





























Really though, the great thing about this forum is that everyone can post their opinion. I have learned alot from the more "seasoned" people and really appreciate everyones input especially on the driving subject.

Cheers


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## MiLo Minis (Feb 28, 2011)

First: Keely, I don't believe anyone is attacking anyone here. Although Bob's first comment on the thread was a bit snide, I didn't feel attacked.






2nd: Bob, I haven't made any assumptions about you. As I said, I don't know you at all and can only go by what I have read from your posts on the forum here. The only comment that I made in reference to you at all was that you seemed kind - if that "impugned your character" then please forgive me.



If you could explain to me where I have been in error I might perhaps understand your comment? I have always felt that everyone is entitled to have their own opinion and I have mine about the Hyperbike. I know the first time I went to your site there weren't any such disclaimers as discussed here and I can only assume there is a reason for them and if it wasn't me then obviously there are others who feel the same way about your vehicle. As to when it was that you included the disclaimers, I am not really sure because I haven't gone to your site very many times as I have seen from photos posted here that your cart hasn't changed much if at all since the first time I viewed it, at least not in the way I would want it to be changed





Third: All of the horses that have been trained by me at my barn are taught as solid a whoa as they possibly can be. I can hitch and unhitch my horses out in the middle of a field without fear of them moving off on their own volition and I also train as well as I can for them to stand even in moments of stress such as things moving around their feet. They completely ignore my 4 Jack Russells scooting around underneath them at any given moment, flapping tarps, umbrellas, etc. but I have not figured out a way to prevent them from moving from pain such as a bee sting without being considered unnecessarily cruel. Things like that happen, I have seen it first hand and more than once - even twice on one day once! Both times that day caused an accident where the cart went over, one resulting in injury. My horses know when to turn it on or off as best as can be expected. We do have to remember that they are sentient beings with their own minds.

4th: I like easy entry pipe carts BECAUSE they are easy to get in and out of. I use them strictly for training and have many times been very glad that I can get in and out quickly and easily without fear of tripping over the shafts or anything else. I find that that sticky kind of open weave shelf liner material makes a great seat liner to keep you from sliding and have used it on many different leather/vinyl seats on vehicles of all descriptions but have never worried about it much on the easy entry because I don't use that style of cart for much other than starting a green horse in the shafts or a trip down the road for fun and exercise. I did once take one in a ditch and had to put my hand on the horse's rump to keep myself in the cart but I think I would have been in the same boat with ANY cart.

Last but not least: Yes this was a question about the Heindl carts. I have gone ahead and purchased one on the hopeful assumption that the Heindl show cart will be as good as what others have said their other carts are. Being that it will be used for many different horses for my clients it is pretty plain jane - black with silver pinstriping.

I have to say this has turned into a much more interesting post than I had expected



Things to consider when purchasing a cart.....


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## Dontworrybeappy (Feb 28, 2011)

I got written up in our Saddle & Harness club newsletter as an "offender" for having an "unattended stallion" at one show - although he was "unattended" unintentionally, and for less than a minute. Both my groom and I assumed the other "had" Appy and we each took a few steps away in different directions before we realized that no one was holding him.





However - he HAS been taught to stand still, and he never moved a muscle while "unattended"!

My professional carriage driving friend used to lecture me on safety every time I did something with Appy that wasn't as it should be, but the last time we met up at the local arena to drive, and I was harnessing Apps while he was groundtied and facing her two mares tied to her trailer, she just said "I'm NOT looking at you!" - and then she sent a mare over to be bred to Appy.





Teaching them to stand and only go when you say is a GREAT thing. I do nothing important with any size horse unless and until they know what "HO" means.


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## Knottymare (Mar 1, 2011)

This thread may have taken a turn but I learned a lot from the discussion. I learned that I have a LOT to learn LOL!


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 1, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> And there is virtually nothing to put your feet on to brace against. Never mind that the ride stinks, as well. Every major bump is applied to the horse's mouth and his body. How anyone gets any effective training done in them is beyond me.
> 
> I know of some big horse carts that require you to step on a foot pad on the axle, swing your leg over the back of the seat or bring your foot up between the wheel and the seat. THAT is a disaster of an entry method.......I know why the groom's boots are the tall "hunt type" ones, because my calf got smacked by the wheel! The George IV is a four-wheel vehicle that requires that the driver mount in between the wheels, as most four-wheelers. You are SOL if the horse moves off while you are there. Actually, anytime you mount in front of the wheel, you are risking getting ran over. If you mount from the rear, you risk the horse moving off before you can get settled! My point is that all carts/vehicles have their inerrant risks.
> 
> ...


Although you said you didn't write for me Myrna



I want to comment on a couple things in your reply.

No matter which cart you decide to buy it is important that it fit BOTH you and your horse. I have short little legs being less than 5 feet tall so when I go cart shopping, particularly for an easy entry, it needs to have a short enough basket that I can brace my feet up against the front of it. I have seen many easy entries that have such a long basket few could sit in them properly - not a good choice. Not everyone is comfortable in my carts though. Funny story - one of my clients is a woman who is well over 6 feet tall. She had a cart custom made for herself and wanted me to use it to train her horse so that he would be comfortable with it. I have a photo of me in the cart and I look just like (okay I am going to date myself badly now) Ruth Buzzy on Laugh-In when she played the little girl! I only hitched him in that cart towards the end of his training and only for short periods of time. It neither fit me, was well balanced with me in it, nor was it comfortable for me to drive yet it suited her to a T.

When driving it is important to keep your arms relaxed so that your hands are independant from your body just as when you are riding. If you are stiff and doing a rising trot in the saddle your hands would be going up and down with your body - not good. It is just the same when driving. You take up the shocks with your fluid arms and hands so that your horse isn't feeling the bumps in his mouth. A properly balanced and correctly sized cart will also take up the shocks from the horses body. I quite often get in the cart with people during lessons and then the cart is not necessarily properly balanced so I have to keep those sessions short so the poor horse doesn't suffer too much. I get out as quickly as I can.

That is why back in the days there were grooms to head the horses till everyone was seated and why today there are a certain number of people required to show certain vehicles in carriage driving. With some vehicles a groom IS a necessity. I wouldn't choose, for myself, those vehicles as a safe vehicle for driving singly without a header. I personally think that Meadowbrooks with a seat that opens to enter from the back is also an unsafe vehicle. My point is that there are safer vehicles to choose from so why not choose them.


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 1, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> unless you buy an easy entry (which is much less safe once you are in it), you have to step over or into almost any cart.
> 
> Being close to the horse without a crossbar is traditional (and not seen as particularly unsafe) on most race bikes and sulkies.
> 
> With any cart, you will have moments entering/exiting where you are less safe than if you were seated in the cart driving.


Also wanted to comment on a couple things you said Keely



Figure if this post is gonna go off track I might as well keep it going WAY OFF as a learning thread. Jeez....ask a simple question.....





The best or safest way to mount a Mini show vehicle is to sit on the seat from behind and quickly swing your legs over the shafts and into the basket and to dismount just reverse that. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, mounting or dismounting ANY vehicle is the most dangerous time but with this method of entry you are most likely to go off the back of the cart if anything happens and be left relatively unscathed. Standing up and stepping into the basket leaves you in a more vulnerable position if the horse should move and it also suddenly puts all your weight onto the horses back which can easily make him decide to move. This is the reason you must get seated quickly in an easy entry with a seat back. You HAVE to step onto the floor boards to enter the cart. Be prepared before mounting and get seated ASAP!

Sulky actually refers to the fact that the vehicle has a single seat and the driver was considered to be sulky in that he preferred to drive alone



They were originally 4 wheeled vehicles with a single seat set on the shafts. Most that I have ever seen or driven in (I used to jog horses on the Standdardbred tracks years ago) for off track use do have a crossbar but it isn't the fact that there is nothing between you and the horse that I object to with a Hyperbike. That part I think is kinda neat because it brings you close to the horse and gives you more of a "riding" feel which you can also get with a sulky. With sulkies you can enter the same way as I described with a show cart - you don't have to step between the horse and the shafts to mount or dismount.


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## Knottymare (Mar 1, 2011)

I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver... how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL... being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.

I will be on a budget and want to get as inexpensive a set up as I can to start out but also want to have well fitting, safe and functional equipment! How do we even start at this?

Thanks for taking this thread down the path of education!


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## keely2682 (Mar 1, 2011)

maybe you can find forum members near you who will let you look at and sit in their carts?

i always welcome beginners and am happy to share advice, so i'm sure you can find someone near you to help

or

certain brands of carts are known to have more leg room, a higher seat...

if you share your height, inseam... on the forum someone of similar stature who drives might have suggestions on what works for them


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## Knottymare (Mar 1, 2011)

keely2682 said:


> maybe you can find forum members near you who will let you look at and sit in their carts?
> 
> i always welcome beginners and am happy to share advice, so i'm sure you can find someone near you to help
> 
> ...


Thanks... good idea. I'm going to attend an even mid month that should have a lot of carts at it. I believe Leia will be there! I'll hit her up 

After I get back, I'll post my stats and start shopping!


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## RhineStone (Mar 1, 2011)

Knottymare said:


> I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver... how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL... being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.


That is why it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to purchase your equipment from someone who knows what they are doing. There are entirely too many distributers out there that basically know that they sell a "mini cart", and that's it. They wouldn't know how to measure a horse if one came up and bit them! That is also why it is very important that new drivers get a coach, even if it is just a more-experienced driver in a local driving club, who can help measure the horse properly, and make educated suggestions about good quality equipment.

It may take a while, but ADS is right now working on gathering information from it's members about who would like to be listed on the ADS Regional webpages in a Trainer/Instructor listing. We hope to be able to steer new drivers in the direction of choosing someone in their area to help them. ADS will not "endorse" trainers, but just make this information available. We know there are "trainers and instructors" out there, but some of them are "hiding", especially for some of us that are connected to a larger world, but don't know specific areas well. Stay tuned!

Myrna


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## susanne (Mar 1, 2011)

Knottymare said:


> ...I'm going to attend an even mid month that should have a lot of carts at it...


If you're referring to the NWMHC Schooling Show in Longview, be sure to say hi -- we plan on taking at least one horse, possibly two. Not that I'm one to tell you much about carts, of course.


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 1, 2011)

As far as a harness goes I would recommend Ozark Mtn. Their harnesses are reasonable for the quality you get no matter which one of theirs you choose. I would get the best one you can afford though. It won't be money wasted because it will last you a long time. Ask for opinions here on the forum for carts and harnesses - that's what we are here for!


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 1, 2011)

RhineStone said:


> That is why it is ABSOLUTELY necessary to purchase your equipment from someone who knows what they are doing. There are entirely too many distributers out there that basically know that they sell a "mini cart", and that's it. They wouldn't know how to measure a horse if one came up and bit them! That is also why it is very important that new drivers get a coach, even if it is just a more-experienced driver in a local driving club, who can help measure the horse properly, and make educated suggestions about good quality equipment.
> 
> It may take a while, but ADS is right now working on gathering information from it's members about who would like to be listed on the ADS Regional webpages in a Trainer/Instructor listing. We hope to be able to steer new drivers in the direction of choosing someone in their area to help them. ADS will not "endorse" trainers, but just make this information available. We know there are "trainers and instructors" out there, but some of them are "hiding", especially for some of us that are connected to a larger world, but don't know specific areas well. Stay tuned!
> 
> Myrna


That is very good advice Myrna and also wonderful news!!! What a great resource that will be for your ADS members and new drivers! Hopefully they will get something like that going here in Canada as well.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 1, 2011)

MiLo Minis said:


> Figure if this post is gonna go off track I might as well keep it going WAY OFF as a learning thread. Jeez....ask a simple question.....


*looks sheepish* Well...I didn't have any information on your original topic! Sorry!







MiLo Minis said:


> The best or safest way to mount a Mini show vehicle is to sit on the seat from behind and quickly swing your legs over the shafts and into the basket and to dismount just reverse that. Yes, as I mentioned earlier, mounting or dismounting ANY vehicle is the most dangerous time but with this method of entry you are most likely to go off the back of the cart if anything happens and be left relatively unscathed. Standing up and stepping into the basket leaves you in a more vulnerable position if the horse should move and it also suddenly puts all your weight onto the horses back which can easily make him decide to move.


I agree that this would be safest but have never managed to make it work. Something about the combination of a wingback velvet seat and the sorts of slacks and skirts I show in just makes for one big tangled up wedgie!



I mount my easy entry and my Bellcrown from the side and it's easiest for me to mount all my carts the same way so whether it's the Hyperbike, a roadster cart, a sleigh or a gig I step in quickly and smoothly from the left and get my butt down on that seat as quickly as possible. Even in the Hyperbike I have that down to under three seconds. Three seconds of danger compared to spending my entire drive trying not to slide off the back of the flat seat...yep. I prefer having a seatback or at the very least a wingback cushion! I had ONE cart with a flat vinyl seat that I could slide onto from the rear like you do and I quickly sold it because I nearly came out of that cart every time we hit a bump or the horse lunged forward. I know the original Hyperbike had a low plastic scoop seat you could probably mount the way you prefer, maybe that would be an option for some people. For me it's not secure enough.



Knottymare said:


> Thanks... good idea. I'm going to attend an even mid month that should have a lot of carts at it. I believe Leia will be there! I'll hit her up


I will be! Me and the kids are looking forward to it. Kody's dying to get back to work and Turbo's going to try and kick butt in the halter classes.



No matter what we're going to have a good time.

I won't be bringing more than one of my carts but you're welcome to come up to my house and try others when the weather improves. Mostly you'll see show carts at this event (no CDE carts or Hyperbikes or wooden road carts for instance) but there'll probably be some easy entries you can try too.



Knottymare said:


> I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver... how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL... being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.


 It isn't easy but it's quite possible. The hard part is finding one that's perfectly comfortable for you because that's the part you can't get from measurements! For fitting the horse you can generally give the manufacturer the height of your horse, an idea of how she's built, and go from there. When choosing a size for wooden wheels you'll want to measure how high the shafts need to sit on your horse (measuring from the middle of her side to the ground) and the manufacturer can usually figure out how big the wheel can be to put the shafts at that height. There are certain standard shaft lengths that typically work and you don't usually get to select the width of the cart so wheel size and shaft length are the usual variables. Some carts will allow you to choose the width between the shafts as well but if that's possible the manufacturer will usually discuss that with you.

For making it fit the driver, well...you talk to other drivers about some of the standard carts, sit in as many as you can to find out what you like and what you don't, buy the best, most adjustable cart you can afford and be prepared to modify it! Fitting driving equipment is a never-ending occupation for most of us. Every time you get it set you buy a new harness or a new horse and have to start all over again.



It's a fine art and one I enjoy.

Leia


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## uwharrie (Mar 2, 2011)

I found this out the hard way this past fall with a dog attack. Any suggestions on how to make the bench seat more secure? (cant afford to replace the EE at this point)



RhineStone said:


> Easy entry is also easy exit! You are _almost_ always safer if you can stay with the cart than if you are ejected. And staying with the cart is ALWAYS safer for spectators, as a loose horse with a weapon attached is definitely a safety hazard! If you can't stop the horse from the box, you sure aren't going to do it by getting out of the cart. I have seen some great horsemen stop a horse after being dumped from the cart, but I have also seen novice drivers watch their cart get trashed while the horse runs loose because they "let go".
> 
> Myrna (who wrote more for the masses than for Lori....)


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## Sue_C. (Mar 2, 2011)

uwharrie said:


> I found this out the hard way this past fall with a dog attack. Any suggestions on how to make the bench seat more secure? (cant afford to replace the EE at this point)


I made a seat cover of waffle-weave (rubber) material held on with elastic and velcro. Works like a charm...I intend to add sides to it this spring to make it into a marathon seat/pad kind of thing. Several friends of mine have simply removed the Naugahyde and replaced it with material, the seats are very easy to reupholster.


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## keely2682 (Mar 2, 2011)

> I agree that this would be safest but have never managed to make it work. Something about the combination of a wingback velvet seat and the sorts of slacks and skirts I show in just makes for one big tangled up wedgie! I mount my easy entry and my Bellcrown from the side and it's easiest for me to mount all my carts the same way so whether it's the Hyperbike, a roadster cart, a sleigh or a gig I step in quickly and smoothly from the left and get my butt down on that seat as quickly as possible. Even in the Hyperbike I have that down to under three seconds. Three seconds of danger compared to spending my entire drive trying not to slide off the back of the flat seat...yep. I prefer having a seatback or at the very least a wingback cushion! I had ONE cart with a flat vinyl seat that I could slide onto from the rear like you do and I quickly sold it because I nearly came out of that cart every time we hit a bump or the horse lunged forward.


I agree!


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## RhineStone (Mar 2, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Something about the combination of a wingback velvet seat and the sorts of slacks and skirts I show in just makes for one big tangled up wedgie!






:rofl


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## Annabellarose (Mar 2, 2011)

I OBVIOUSLY missed something, but I was still shocked and disappointed to read those first off-topic "jabs".



Knottymare said:


> I frequently hear that the harness and cart should "fit" the horse and the driver...how is that possible when purchasing online? It's not like we have a cart dealer around LOL...being entirely new to this, I am not even sure where to start.
> I will be on a budget and want to get as inexpensive a set up as I can to start out but also want to have well fitting, safe and functional equipment! How do we even start at this?
> 
> Thanks for taking this thread down the path of education!


You do as others have already suggested and "ask around" and collect as much advice and as many opinions as you can and, sometimes, you just have to learn the hard way, unfortunately. You bite the bullet, place your order, and you either try your best to make it fit safely (you may have to trim your shafts or buy a different size wheel, etc.) or you scrap it and sell it to someone that can use it and you try again. I have already had to do both.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 2, 2011)

Annabellarose said:


> I OBVIOUSLY missed something, but I was still shocked and disappointed to read those first off-topic "jabs".


Me too, but as usual the great folks on this forum took it back in a more positive and educational direction.





Leia


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## Carriage (Mar 2, 2011)

Well I'll apologize for my part in the dust-up and admit that my initial response was "snide". Missed in the mix was that my remark was in RESPONSE to the same thing. Still I should be more mature and not care. Still working on that.

That being said and to address Miss Lori's desire for a different seating arrangement.

I have built two rigs over its 15 ( I know its not as long as Jerald) year lifespan that allowed the driver to enter from the rear and then swivel forward. In both cases there was no other alternative. Neither cart had a seat back that would fold down backwards from vertical. We could go into treatise of why I believe this to be a bad and problematic approach however I will say that as of this point I've seen nothing that would cause me to want to do that on a high performance cart and ESPECIALLY on this one.

Also in both cases, a header was absolutely necessary due to the disabilities being addressed. The necessity of a header present for mounting this cart in this manner GREATLY diminished my liability. Indeed it was the ONLY reason I agreed to do it.

Mounting this cart from the rear and swinging around forward puts a DRAMATIC lift on the horse without a header managing the shaft lift.. More so than any other cart made (tmk). As a mfr and horse lover I will NOT do that or advise to do that because it is wrong for the horse. Think excessive lift might cause a horse to move or worse. Odds would tend to favor it. This rig is not built to enter that way. The very things that give this rig so much ability and advantage for the horse, also preclude this type of entry as prudent. The safest way to mount this rig is from the side, in front of the wheel, smoothly, quickly and with a rock solid trained horse AND driver. Also our drivers completely understand these attributes and are PREPARED for the possibility that things could happen. It is being prepared that allows them to mitigate the possible danger. Also they are in a better position to mitigate a problem due to their intimate stance with both horse and cart. I think that any seasoned 'Biker will agree in general with the above statements because they intimately know their horse and gear in a way that the uninitiated simply cannot. Blowing things clear out of proportion, specifically your insistence that something can go wrong one time in a thousand grates because it is unfairly applied and held up in shrillness as it WILL happen and I hope people don't die....... If your position is correct and fairly applied you are pretty much afraid of everything because something "could" happen with everything.

I will not build the seating arrangement you desire because, with this rig, it is wrong. One cannot apply the usual rules and givens with this rig. It won't work.

Miss Lori once I knew your point of contention, I let all the stuff go because we aggressively address your point of issue through-out the entire process. I just got a little tired of hearing these never defined "safety concerns" from somebody with very little or NO experience with the rig. Once I knew the problem, all the other misstatements became irrelevant even though they chaffed and I didn't really like other people believing those things about us and what we do..

You still sounded skeptical that I could learn something without your tutelage however it is true and happens all the time, because I am always seeking to be and build better.

While I have coveted endorsement in the past, I don't seek it out any more. I am not seeking approval, I already have it with the folk that matter most to me. I would merely like the false statements and exaggerated "safety concerns" to cease. If it is your opinion, whether knowledge based or not, it should have a disclaimer stating such just as you are always insisting from us at nearly every turn. Also understand that at some point in the process when you behave this way, some folk will stand up to bullying behavior and say enough.

I understand and appreciate your PERSONAL concern fully. This rig is not for you. I would ONLY want you doing what is best for you and your horse. Now you can continue with this if you choose, but I've wasted enough time on it for sure and do apologize for my original comment. Whether "deserved" or not, I wish that I had not....

I like your color scheme. Understated has a beauty all its own and would compliment and turn focus to the horse which is where it should be. Can't wait to see it.

Bb

Graham Carriage Works


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## Connie Ballard (Mar 2, 2011)

Back to topic... Heindl Show Carts

Like Keely...I LOVE my training cart (metal cart with a racing sulky seat) It is super nice quality, well built, comfortable for horse and driver.

But...I wouldnt have one of their show carts. They do indeed sit too tall. They look odd in the ring and feel odd to drive. DONT get me wrong...they are a well-built cart, good quality, nice folks doing a nice job on their carts. But they dont have the frame height right.

I've talked to Dave and John Heindl about this couple times and gave up. I've know these guys for years. They worked for Superior Sulky when I used to sell for Superior, then they opened their own shop and started building carts. I own their first training cart they ever built...drove it for them to take pics and start selling them then HAD to buy it cause I loved it and would buy another for sure.

John is an engineer and his Dad works with him. They arent horse people so maybe that is why the frame/seat height is hard for them to value. But they do build good safe carts.


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## susanne (Mar 2, 2011)

I've mentioned this on other threads, but had to add the same 2 cents worth here...

Diabetic problems in my legs and a chronic bad back have left me somewhere between pathetically klutzy and useless. I am thus extremely cautious in getting into ANY cart.

I have a means of mounting the HyperBike that minimizes any risk and keeps me from falling on my face (or any other body part).

Standing to the left side and facing front, I lift my right leg over the left shaft and almost simultaneously sit down. My rear end is planted in the seat virtually by the time my right leg touches the ground between the shafts. I then put my left foot in the stirrup, then my right foot.

Mingus has a great whoa, but if the worst happened and he spooked, I would either be knocked clear of the cart or would be in the seat.

If I can do this with my worthless legs, a healthy body should have no problem and mounting need not be unsafe.

I feel much more at risk with the time it takes to step in and get seated in our easy entry cart (ours has a lift kit, so climbing in is not as quick as with lower carts).


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## hobbyhorse23 (Mar 2, 2011)

Bob, you know I love you but please let this go. Lori is not "bullying" you nor is what she's stating relative to the potential mounting issues out of line. We cannot mitigate risks if we haven't evaluated them ourselves and I too have thought about what would happen if I was between the seat and the horse when he lunged forward. It wouldn't be pretty. Now my solution to that is to do as Susanne does and make sure that I'm never standing between those two points during the mounting process, but it is a valid concern. I do not believe she wanted a _seat_ that swiveled, rather she sits on the seat and swivels her _body_ around. I've seen it done and understand what she's talking about, I just can't do it myself.




If done with agility it does not dramatically affect the balance of the cart as you should sit over the axle and rest all your weight there while turning.

Anyway, I respect your engineering ability and your input on many topics but this one should never have been brought up on this thread. I wish I had something to say regarding the Heindl show carts!



If they're the ones Double Diamond sells/sold, I agree that they sit too high behind the horse just as many Houghton's did IMO.

Leia


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## Katiean (Mar 2, 2011)

We had a seat issue with our show cart just because Jessie was so light in the seat. She wasn't heavy enough to compress the springs at all. That made our seat slant forward. The seat was also vinyl. She kept adjusting her seat as she drove. Couldn't go in the show ring like that. Think fast! Oh, got it!! Everyone should carry DUCT TAPE. I took Jessie in the stall and made some roll strips of Duct Tape. I taped her panties to her fanny, her skirt to her panties and the seat to her skirt. Just had to sit in the right spot when you sat down. Never under estimate the resourcefulness of a redneck! I have made adjustments to the seat since including making the seat 1/2 the thickness it was. Don't need to use the duct tape to stay in the cart seat any more.


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## Carriage (Mar 3, 2011)

hobbyhorse23 said:


> Bob, you know I love you but please let this go. Lori is not "bullying" you nor is what she's stating relative to the potential mounting issues out of line. We cannot mitigate risks if we haven't evaluated them ourselves and I too have thought about what would happen if I was between the seat and the horse when he lunged forward. It wouldn't be pretty. Now my solution to that is to do as Susanne does and make sure that I'm never standing between those two points during the mounting process, but it is a valid concern. I do not believe she wanted a _seat_ that swiveled, rather she sits on the seat and swivels her _body_ around. I've seen it done and understand what she's talking about, I just can't do it myself.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I fully agree that I should not have responded in that thread as I did.

While I don't agree with your assessment, I still don't need to respond and will work on that. The respect you show me and others causes me to take your council to heart.

Thank you

Bb


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## MiLo Minis (Mar 4, 2011)

Thank you Leia



Apology accepted Bob.

Katiean I LOVE your redneck attitude!



Duct tape, binder twine and a good knife - 3 things no horseperson should be without!

I picked my cart up yesterday, took it out for a test drive this morning and am quite pleased with it. It is well made and well balanced although I had to move the seat forward a bit to suit me - there was a bit too much lift in the shafts as it was.

I can see why you would have difficulty with the seat of the Heindl as it comes from the manufacturer. It is on quite a slant (I am not heavy enough to compress the springs either) and being vinyl you would tend to slide down it which would put your weight on the floor of the cart and not over the axle as it is meant to be. Fortunately the cart that I bought is second hand (although looks to be new)and the seat has been altered to sit at a better angle - MUCH BETTER! I still don't compress the seat springs at all but it sure is a comfortable ride for the driver! Not quite as comfortable for the horse because the seat springs are the only shock absorbers on it



but it will only see use in the show ring and my exercise area where I don't expect to hit too many bumps and I will keep my elliptical springs for cross country.

You do sit quite a bit higher on this cart than you do in a Jerald, Houghton, Superior or Graber (those being my experiences with Miniature show carts) but I like it! I am quite short being slightly less than 5 feet tall and for the first time I feel as comfortable in my show cart as I do in my carriage carts which give me a better view



I sit up high but can still reach the floor boards to give me some bracing, can comfortably have a straight line in my reins from the bit to my hands, and, being as short as I am, I don't look silly because I am still not as high up as others in the ring are. There is a cart for everyone out there, you just have to find one that is suitable for you!

I will get some photos driving it when I get a chance and let you know how well I like it once I have a few miles on it.


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## Margo_C-T (Mar 9, 2011)

Revisiting this topic to ask those of you who've said you own/drive one of the Heindl *training* carts if you'd elaborate on all the reasons why you like yours, and also, do you consider them suitable for different sizes of minis--say, between 32 and 38"?(I am primarily interested in the use for horses right in the 34" range, but do have one each at 32 and 38", and it would be great to be able to use such a vehicle for all the ones I drive!)

I'd be especially interested in specifics of how you use your Heindl training cart...whether you trail drive, on what kind of terrain, how 'secure' is it(because it has a fairly narrow wheelbase), and do you use it for relatively long drives/periods of time in the cart. The stirrups seem to be in more of a 'sitting-in-a-chair" configuration than in a more 'sulky-like'one, where the feet are higher and more 'wrapped-around' the horse, so to speak. This looks more comfortable for someone older like me!..but I would love to hear input from those with actual use experience!

Thanks,

Margo


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## Christie (Mar 9, 2011)

Hi Margo, I can't put in to much input as I only use my cart on 31 " minis and mostly drive on a levelish driving track and hilly road driving. I do live in a very steep hilly area and I found the cart to be very stable I never felt that way in my Frontier cart. With these little ones I don't over work the hills but what we've done has been comfortable for me and the horses seem very much the same.. I have a lot of health problems that include a lot of chronic pain and joint issues. This training cart is very kind to me physically. In fact the position I drive in with the Heindl actually can decrease my back pain. I've been known to hitch up for a drive as physical therapy and pain reducer for my lower back. Riding horses has given me the same kind of help but I don't ride anymore. I'm glad I have found a very enjoyable replacement.



I do love this cart! I would buy another in a flash!

Christie from Scenery Hill, Pa



Margo_C-T said:


> Revisiting this topic to ask those of you who've said you own/drive one of the Heindl *training* carts if you'd elaborate on all the reasons why you like yours, and also, do you consider them suitable for different sizes of minis--say, between 32 and 38"?(I am primarily interested in the use for horses right in the 34" range, but do have one each at 32 and 38", and it would be great to be able to use such a vehicle for all the ones I drive!)


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## Margo_C-T (Mar 13, 2011)

Thanks for your response, Christie!

Anyone else care to add their comments? It would be appreciated!

Margo


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