# hoof separation--***PHOTOS added page 3***



## barnbum (Nov 9, 2009)

The farrier stopped trimming Rosie when the foals started getting trimmed by him, about 5 months ago. Hubby trims/rasps all but the foals. I noticed Rosie has a space between her hoof wall and the soul, so I had my farrier check her today. He said her hoof is separating a bit and it is most likely caused from her stomping flies this summer. He said Mark has done a nice job trimming her, but to fix the problem, he trimmed more at the separating spots and filed so the fronts are more rounded. He said she needs to stay trimmed short for a bit. So, the plan is Mark will rasp her hooves every few weeks, and Rosie is back on the list for the farrier to trim every eight when he comes for the foals. He said to call him any time and he'll come out to check her.

I've never had a horse with this before. I'm hoping it won't be a problem. I'll have to really keep the flies off next summer--leg wraps, maybe.

Has anyone had experience with this issue?


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## Frankie (Nov 9, 2009)

Not saying it can't happen, but the stomping of fly thing seems a bit out there for me. I do have one with separation of the wall,,,due to IR and founder.

I would check into it a little more if I were you. Never hurts to have a second opinion.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 9, 2009)

Actually you have read about this on the forum before and just didn't realize it. Hoof separation, where there is a space between the hoof wall or horn and the sensitive inner structures is also known as laminitis. What your horse is experiencing is slight laminitis caused by flares in the hoof wall from excess length which puts pressure on the laminae and pulls them away from the hoof wall. That is why it is so important to deal with flares immediately. This can easily occur due to stomping flies as that puts extra stress on the feet and you do tend to see more of it in the summer but then that is when the hooves grow particularly well too and the flare must be present.


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## TaylorMarie (Nov 9, 2009)

hoof wall separation can be caused by white line disease. my gelding gets it once a year. the hoof wall needs to be removed in the spots where the separation is and the feet kept clean and dry. usually the white line will appear dirty.stomping at flies DOES NOT CAUSE separation in the hoof wall!! some horses are more prone to this. donkeys tend to get it more often. (also referred to as seady toe) no worries just some little bacteria that gets into the white line.

Taylor


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## barnbum (Nov 9, 2009)

No, it's not seedy toe. I researched this after the farrier left and there's no infection at all--but an absess is what could happen if something gets stuck in the opening. I'm reading my "Complete Horse Care Manual" and the seedy toe description doesn't describe what's going on with Rosie. She's not lame at all--has no discomfort from this. The farrier said in some horses this clears up, and in others it's an issue all the time.


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## Frankie (Nov 9, 2009)

Ijust wanted to suggest a second opinion as when I had my horse at Purdue University, they told me many times a hoof problem starts with the inside of the horse and is often over looked.

Hope it's simple.

Good luck


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## stormy (Nov 9, 2009)

A seperation like that can be from white line disease caused by a fungus. I have had two mares with it, treated with a thrush remedy my farrier uses and keep the part of the hoof that had seperated trimmed short so no pressure was on the wall there. They both are now normal...think of it like the fungus some people get under their toenails that makes the nail come loose! Neither horse has had a recurrance though we certainly have had a return of flies each year!!


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## barnbum (Nov 9, 2009)

Thanks, Frankie. Everything else seems fine with her. The vet's been here too many times this year, so everyone has been looked over well.



I took Rosie for a two mile walk yesterday to watch for anything...and she appears 100%.





Oh--thanks, Stormy... I didn't see your reply at first.


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## Minimor (Nov 9, 2009)

Is it that the white line is wider than it should be? I'm not sure just what you're seeing, since you mention a hole that something could get into. You can have a wide white line without seedy toe, and you can have actual seedy toe--the wide white line is often an early symptom of a problem You can also have a bit of seedy toe without the horse showing any lameness--I've seen that too, in more than one show Morgan that had the hoofs built up to enhance the movement.

I've also seen horses with a hoof wall that kind of splits off from the rest of the foot, and I wonder if this is what you're meaning. I've seen this in dry weather, particularly if the hoof gets a little bit too long--it might break off, or part of it might break off, but some of the hoof wall just kind of peels away a little bit, leaving an actual opening between it & the tissue underneath. It doesn't make the horse lame (unless it were left & became too severe I suppose, then it might). It's not necessarily even the entire wall, just the outside half kind of peels away from the inside half. The space under the peeled away part can get packed with dirt/mud, but even then I haven't seen a horse get lame from it. The hoof doesn't have to be excessively long to do this--I'm not meaning it's a sign of neglected feet at all!


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## TaylorMarie (Nov 9, 2009)

barnbum said:


> No, it's not seedy toe. I researched this after the farrier left and there's no infection at all--but an absess is what could happen if something gets stuck in the opening. I'm reading my "Complete Horse Care Manual" and the seedy toe description doesn't describe what's going on with Rosie. She's not lame at all--has no discomfort from this. The farrier said in some horses this clears up, and in others it's an issue all the time.


It is called seady toe when in the toe but it is the same as white line disease. white line disease doesn't usually cause lameness unless it is an extreme case affecting most of the white line. if you could take some pictures that would be more helpfull!!

Taylor

(farrier)


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## barnbum (Nov 9, 2009)

Hmm...I can get photos on Wednesday. Nothing is peeling...it's nothing severe. She's never been long...

The farrier didn't say anything about white line disease--so it's not that....he would have mentioned it.

Here's a picture of kind of what it is--but this is way worse: hoof separation


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 9, 2009)

What you describe sounds exactly like white line disease. Can cause separation, can be due to stomping, wet conditions followed by dry etc. Not a big deal at all unless they get bacteria or grit in the line and then it can cause a gravel and other issues etc. I was plagued with this summer of 2008 with my guys and sounds exactly like what you described. Between the hoof wall and the sole it looked like I dug a small ditch with the hoofpick and stuff was packing in.... Read up on Pete Ramey's web site for photos and recommendations, but I do think white line issues, not laminitis. Doesn't take more than a tiny bit of inflamation in the sensitive laminae to make the horse very sore. My guys were fine, but clearly starting a problem.. I sprayed the feet daily with a dilute lysol solution. Kept the bacteria out and helped clean and tighten things up on the feet. They recommend soaking, however I found the spraying worked just fine for me. Kept the boys trimmed every 5-6 weeks max. Then finally I put in pea gravel in my loafing area and all issues with the feet went away since they had a chance to dry out and get strong. Don't get talked into packing the feet in pine tar or putting on dressing and such. Trim often, treat with dilute lysol, let the feet dry out and you can supplement with flax too. This time of year around here the grass starts to collect dew about dusk and stays wet until noon. Prime conditions for white line issues. Feet are just too wet, they can be too wet without thrush.. best wishes.


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## barnbum (Nov 9, 2009)

Yes--shorthorsemom--that's it!



> Between the hoof wall and the sole it looked like I dug a small ditch with the hoofpick and stuff was packing in


 You described it perfectly. I always spray hooves with hydrogen peroxide, so that should work the same? I will pick up that metal pick the farrier mentioned--but he said to not dig too much in--just surface cleaning. 
It hasn't been too muddy or too wet this summer and fall. My horses are all stalled at night--in dry stalls, so whatever it's doing outside they have a break from. They are fed whole flax too--but about 5 months ago I reduced them to once a day vs. twice. Maybe Rosie needs it twice again. She will get rasped every 3-4 weeks, then trimmed by the farrier every 8--so she'll be kept short and filed.

Thanks so much for your reply. I'll surely keep my eye on her. It was caught so early, so it's not bad--sometimes when I checked her while waiting for the farrier, we couldn't find the problem. Rosie's going to get very good at having her feet played with.


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## qtrrae (Nov 9, 2009)

Hi Karla,

Not sure if this will be any help but it sounds very much like what out quarter horse stallion had - this was several years ago when we raised quarter horses.

We had his hoof x-rayed and worked closely with our farrier and our vet.

It was diagnosed as a start of white line disease. We soaked his foot once a day with a mixture of iodine/epsom salts and warm water. I was told that the important thing was to keep his feet as dry as possible and to make sure the affected area was exposed to the air. I would always dry his hoof completely when I took it out of the mixture.

It must have felt good because this huge stallion would stand there with his foot in the mixture while I went about with my other chores.

He did fine and often if we had wet, muddy paddocks it would flare up, again. I would just start back with his treatments and soon his foot would clear up.

Good luck with your precious Rosie, I know she will be fine - give her an extra special hug from me.


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## MiniCooper (Nov 9, 2009)

It sounds similar to what I have been dealing with on my mare that I rescued. At first, her hooves looked similar to the pictures on the link (after getting trimmed a few times, her feet were severely overgrown). She didn't have the crumbly white material coming out of her hoof. The farrier thinks she had a case of whiteline disease (seedy toe), but somehow it has resolved itself.But her white line is gone...nonexistant (hence, "dug a ditch with a hoofpick") Now her hoof walls on all four feet seem to be severely seperated. We soak her feet and have to keep her feet dry as possible, to try to prevent more bacteria growth. She is on supplements to get her hooves to grow stronger and trims every 2-3 weeks to remove the damaged hoof wall and take her toes off.

To me....is sounds like you might want to treat it like white line disease, just to be on the safe side.


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## Shari (Nov 10, 2009)

Maggie used to get white line disease(wasn't founder, had her tested) bad on her front hooves when we lived at the old farm during the winter. The soil was a sharp sand which started much of the problem with her.

Only way to get rid of it, is have a knowledgeable farrier cut off all the outer affected area's, and rebuild the hoof with a medicated bonding material. Then he built up shoes for her with simular material, to help keep the bonding in place.

It is very important to get all of the diease cut out, other wise it will happen over and over again.

Luckily she was in her special shoes when we moved here and already being treated. We just have grass and clay soil,, knock on wood, we haven't had any more white line issues.


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## TaylorMarie (Nov 10, 2009)

Hi BarnBum

the pictures that you posted of what..kinda... your horses hooves look like.. appear like they are just being effected by either really dry or really wet conditions (hard to tell without seeing!) if you picture the live tissues that form the shape of the sole , indenting at the white line, kinda doming the sole. I was just wondering the footing that your horse is on during the day and night? if too wet it can cause all the false sole to sluff off and form that separation at the white line(rinses off the exfoliating sole a little too soon), and if too dry a callus will form in the same area with the same gap. these pics are not what my gelding gets which is white line disease. But i do see this in my mom's quarter horses when I go to trim them. It is usually the ones who are a little thin soled an when the temperature drops or rises.

but i would still like to see pictures (when you get a chance)

Hope i can help

Taylor


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## TaylorMarie (Nov 10, 2009)

Just thought that I would say that I find the average toe length (from coronary band to the ground) in miniature horses is 2 1/2" (I trim alot of minis, being a trainer, breeder, and farrier!!!) heel roughly 1/2" to 3/4" These are just averages and I hope your professional farrier knows the boundaries!!!

Barnbum

i will try to get picture (unless i see one from you) of what i think your horses hooves look like as i live in a area where i see everything!

Taylor


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## End Level Farms (Nov 10, 2009)

I just have to say none of my horses have any laminitis, or founder issues and stomp flies all summer even with bug stuff on.

I have had just about every one of my horses large and small have hoof separation at one point or another. Every single time this has happened its a simple matter of doing their feet a little more often or rasping their feet every 3 weeks in between farrier visits. (Which are usually every 6-8 weeks but sometimes something happens or my farrier or myself have to go out of town)


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## barnbum (Nov 10, 2009)

I'll get pictures tomorrow (Wed) to show you. My farrier is outstanding, so I trust him 100%, which feels so nice.



He knows the boundaries.

To answer a few questions--it really hasn't been too wet or too dry here at all. We've had very balanced seasons this year. Muddy for a few days--then it dries up, but not to a dusty state. All the pastures have very short grass--and are what I'd consider soft. Nothing sandy, nothing hard. Stalls are always dry with shavings--dirt floors. There's nothing harsh and nothing extreme that's lasted more than a few days. That's one part that seems odd to me. It'd be easier to understand if we have had extreme conditions--as in years past.

Thanks for the replies everyone! I appreciate reading through them. Off to the barn for chores and to clean Rosie's feet!


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## minglewood (Nov 10, 2009)

We see hoof separation like the kind you're describing occasionally, usually when it's dry in the summer. We trim on our regular 8wk schedule, pick out feet as usual, and they just grow out over the winter when they get packed with snow and ice. Haven't had any problems with lameness at all, so your farrier's advice on this may be sensible to start out with.


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## barnbum (Nov 10, 2009)

Thanks, minglewood. I'll take photos tomorrow--then some will roll their eyes because it's not severe at all. I tell ya, we catch stuff early up here.




Rosie's been cleaned and peroxided twice today. Even she's rolling her eyes at me. I expect to hear the farrier say it's the fastest he's ever seen a separation fix itself.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 10, 2009)

The pea gravel I put into my paddock really improved and strengthened my guys feet. I don't have flat soles, don't have white line disease and the feet are unbelievably healthy. Just tooting the pea gravel horn again. love it. Bonus in the winter is that you don't get frozen hoof prints to stumble over either. Just pick the poos. great stuff. Getting ready to put in a fresh load before winter.

good luck! took my guys a bit of time to get rid of the "hoof ditch", had to keep up on those long toes, frequent trimming helped so much. Keep us posted! take care


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## disneyhorse (Nov 10, 2009)

Having experienced several cases of white line disease... I have to say that it is NOT the same as white line separation. Obviously, if the disease seeps up the separated white line, you'd have both going on.

Just because the white line is separated, doesn't mean that the bacteria/fungus has worked its way up into the white line. If something does take up residence, then obviously the hoof wall would need to be cut away to expose and treat the affected area.

I understand what you are saying, I would agree with your farrier to keep the edges of her hooves rolled and trimmed nice and compact to prevent stress on the hoof wall to pull it away from the white line.

Good luck,

Andrea


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 10, 2009)

Stomping flies does not cause hoof separation on a healthy hoof, there has to be flare there to begin with and then stomping the flies puts extra stress on the flared part thus causing separation to worsen.


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## Marty (Nov 11, 2009)

Hey Karla, I have to agree with Frankie and Milo. If you had a true hoof/wall separation it should not be taken lightly as it is a warning that something is going on. I cannot imagine stomping flies would cause that like Milo explained. I don't know what you have but I have had a few very true hoof / wall separations back in Florida where white line problems ran rappant for a while and it was treated with a number of things but mostly rebriding and using methionine in combination with oral meds. Can you see a flare like Milo is pointing out? Flares are easy to see. If so, then you do have a situation and that flare should be tended too and the dead tissue hauled out of it.

My quarter horse Sonny also had a bout with hoof/wall separation a few years ago from a laminitis attack that I was able to stop in its tracks with a ton of emergency treatment. He has the worlds worst feet in the world anyhow and this just added to the mess. He had some nasty separation and flares that came on him fast that we were successful in getting back in control but it took some doing.


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## Windhaven (Nov 11, 2009)

Hi

I just wanted to add, that I to have been struggling with this problem this summer to.

Someone suggested Remission for faster, stronger new hoof growth. I've had a colt on it for about 3 weeks now, (his feet would not grow and he also had the problem you described) which I was told is NOT White Line disease, by a certified farrier (also was told White Line disease is highly contagious and all property that horses are on must be treated with Lime to get ride of it). He just had his hooves trimmed today and I was amazed at the difference in his feet. They were 90% better and was able to actually trim some hoof off and one more trim should have them back to normal.





So I highly recommend REMISSION for anyone who is having hoof problems. GREAT STUFF

Good luck and hope you get it under control.


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## barnbum (Nov 11, 2009)

Wow! The farrier said on Monday Rosie had some separation on all four hooves, but Mark and I had only really noticed it on two. I took these photos just now and there's already a huge improvement!! Oh happiness!





These start at the front left and work back and around. There's still some detection of it... but it's looking great!





I can see it on the right side of several of these photos.





















windhaven--thanks for the recommendation of Remission. Right now my horses' hooves grow very fast! But, if I ever need them to grow faster--I'll get that stuff.





My farrier is the most requested guy in this area. He's been doing this a long time--and is certified. I'd never trust anyone else.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 11, 2009)

Here is what Pete Ramey says...

good article.

http://www.hoofrehab.com/end_of_white_line...e.htm#Whiteline


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## TaylorMarie (Nov 11, 2009)

barnbum said:


> Wow! The farrier said on Monday Rosie had some separation on all four hooves, but Mark and I had only really noticed it on two. I took these photos just now and there's already a huge improvement!! Oh happiness!
> 
> 
> 
> ...



these hooves look fine (a little long though) a good trim and they will look normal again!!!

Taylor


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## Marsha Cassada (Nov 11, 2009)

I enjoyed that article, shorthorsemom. I used to worry about my boys working on the blacktop, but it's never seemed to bother them and I guess it's because they need a hard dry surface sometimes.

I'm going to consider using the pea gravel in their winter shelter.


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## Margaret (Nov 12, 2009)

I know of a mare that has had this problem for some time..

Her owner has her on sandy soil also.

I think the sand with the dampness aggravates it, and keeps it from correcting itself.

Remittion sounds like a good idea to help encourage it to grow out, as you cant trim short enough to remove it.

But it takes owner diligence to keep it in check between trims.


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## barnbum (Nov 12, 2009)

My run-ins have mats in them--it's been dry in there/everywhere for weeks. Plus, she's stalled in a dry place all night. It hasn't rained here in a while--all is dry--but not dusty. The ground is so nice-not hard. Therefore, I can't imagine it has anything to do with the conditions of the ground. That's why flies made more sense. It's been warmer than usual, and I was shocked to see flies bothering them one day--in October!

Now that I've seen just how quickly this condition is correcting, I'm not worried. Attentive, but not worried. We can rasp just a bit every week to keep it in check.


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## Carolyn R (Nov 12, 2009)

I wouldn't worry at all, Looks like they just need a trim and a little work with a hoof knife.


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## barnbum (Nov 12, 2009)

When my husband saw the photos and then the hooves, he said the photos are misleading--they look like she has a ridge, but there's not one there. I agree. I should take some from the side or even from her standing for you to see--but the important thing is she's doing fine.





I'll add photos in a week to compare.


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## shorthorsemom (Nov 12, 2009)

Marsha Cassada said:


> I enjoyed that article, shorthorsemom. I used to worry about my boys working on the blacktop, but it's never seemed to bother them and I guess it's because they need a hard dry surface sometimes.
> I'm going to consider using the pea gravel in their winter shelter.


Hi Marsha,

If you ever try pea gravel you will LOVE it. My farrier was skeptical at first when I put it in, and now he is convinced. Says my guys have rock hard feet without dryness, and they have excellent soles with no separation of the white line. I noticed my guys can run over rocks now and never tippy toe. I need to replenish it right now as soon as it stops raining because it sinks down over time, but I start with 4-6 inches of it. I love it in the winter too because it keeps them from creating those frozen hoof prints for me to trip over. My farrier said my guys have some of the best feet no matter what the weather conditions. We don't get thrush and the frogs stay nice and tight and don't need the knife applied to trim them or anything. The pea gravel is 1/2 inch and nice and round. The feet stay clean and don't need picking as often and they stay nice between trims. I just do my paddock where they loaf all night. Sometimes they even like to lay in it stretched out like it is a mattress. It undulates when you first put it in and then it settles. Can't wait to put more in. I am spoiled and I am having to pick out some feet daily right now. My friend put landscaping stuff down under her gravel and hers doesn't sink into the mud. best wishes



PS, my friend that does CDE with her full sized horses does blacktop work with them.


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## TaylorMarie (Nov 13, 2009)

shorthorsemom said:


> Marsha Cassada said:
> 
> 
> > I enjoyed that article, shorthorsemom. I used to worry about my boys working on the blacktop, but it's never seemed to bother them and I guess it's because they need a hard dry surface sometimes.
> ...


hi

I am glad the pea fravel is working for you!!! just be aware that once the tough sole becomes too thick and needs to be removed your horses might be a little ouchy


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