# I have a question regarding



## starkadator (Oct 22, 2012)

I am purchasing a pair of driving mares and am in need of a vehicle. In addition to the mares I have a two-year-old who I will be breaking next year so I need a vehicle that can be pulled by a single and a pair. What are your thoughts about hitching a pair to a two-wheeled cart? I wish I could afford a cart AND a four-wheeler, but I can't, so I would appreciate your thoughts on the safety of this, etc. Thanks for your help.


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## disneyhorse (Oct 22, 2012)

Get a four wheeler, and then save up in the meantime for a used easy entry. I hate driving pairs on a two wheeled cart.


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## starkadator (Oct 22, 2012)

Thank you disneyhorse. Is there any particular reason why you hate driving pairs in a two-wheeler?


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## Margo_C-T (Oct 22, 2012)

The balance is not proper for a pair put to a 2 wheeler, except for a couple of very specific designs--a 'Cape Cart', and a 'Curricle'(you can look these up, I'm sure; there also is a cart specially designed for Freisian horse pair use, but you won't find that in miniature horse size!)

Simply put, just adding a pair pole to a cart ends up putting too much downward pressure/weight on the tops of the pair's necks. You can do it, but it is not a really good set-up for either driver OR horses. Pacific, who makes the 'Smart Carts', does make a pair pole for use w/ the 'Smart Cart'(their miniature horse two wheeler),and I'd guess it probably works better than most, but there is still the basic issue of a two-wheeled cart just not generally being a proper vehicle for driving a pair.Disneyhorse offered the right advice; one thing I'd add is to do your homework about 4 wheelers; you want something that will not have a too-narrow wheel base, and that WILL have a decent turn radius, not requiring a half acre to turn without risking the wheels hitting the vehicle body and risking a turn-over!

Margo


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## starkadator (Oct 23, 2012)

Thank you Margo CT. A 4-wheeler it is.


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## Matthijs (Oct 23, 2012)

We have a smart cart that we also have a pair pole for, it is one of the few two wheel carts sturdy and well balanced enough to do this with. We only use it very little in the pair setup as we have two horses and both like to drive.

A hardwick tadpole would be a good four wheeler because it can be used for single as well as pair and yet light enough to be hitched with a single in good health and about 34" tall.

It will not have the problems some entry level four wheelers may have like the narrow axle or big turn radius.

Please remember that it is recommended to only use four wheeled vehicles with well seasoned and trained horses, if you are a beginner it is wise to start with a single horse in a two wheeled cart and then later move to the four wheeler and only then again to the four wheeler with a pair.

Matthijs.


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## starkadator (Oct 24, 2012)

Thanks everyone. I purchased a wagon. It will be delivered in about 6 weeks.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Oct 24, 2012)

Matthijs said:


> A hardwick tadpole would be a good four wheeler because it can be used for single as well as pair and yet light enough to be hitched with a single in good health and about 34" tall.


I love that carriage but have yet to meet a single A-sized mini who could pull it by themselves. A well-built B mini can, but I agree with Matthijs that a four-wheeler is also not an appropriate starting vehicle for a green horse like your two year old. Stick with your wagon for the pair (which I can't wait to see!) and a light good-quality EE.

I do drive my pair to a two-wheeled vehicle and it handles fairly well, but I worked my rear end off and spent a large amount of money getting it balanced and functional and basically turning it into a cape cart. It works great on pavement and well in an arena but I'm nervous about using it cross-country here in CA. We'll see how it works! There's no question a four-wheeler would be better but the two-wheeler is kind of fun when you get it working right. Still, most people I know who tried it without the same equipment found it made their horses sore and they quickly gave it up.







(Forgive the loose traces, we were circling the photographer and Kody walks slower than Turbo does.)

Leia


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## starkadator (Nov 3, 2012)

Leia, that is one cool picture!!! I admire the fact that you were able to get it balanced and that you can keep your balance well enough to make the whole thing work. I wish I were that skillful. Waiting for the wagon to be made is driving me crazy.

Matthijs, thank you for mentioning the narrow axle. I will contact the guy that's making it to see if he can put a wider axle on it, as that is indeed a concern that I hadn't thought of.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 3, 2012)

starkadator said:


> Leia, that is one cool picture!!! I admire the fact that you were able to get it balanced and that you can keep your balance well enough to make the whole thing work. I wish I were that skillful. Waiting for the wagon to be made is driving me crazy.
> Matthijs, thank you for mentioning the narrow axle. I will contact the guy that's making it to see if he can put a wider axle on it, as that is indeed a concern that I hadn't thought of.


Oh yes, I should have mentioned that I put a wider axle on my EE as part of the pair conversion as well. That helps a lot with the stability and visual balance of the vehicle! A normal narrow EE just skips along behind a pair like a tin can on roller skates and can flip at the drop of a hat. I don't have to do much to keep the vehicle balanced when I'm in it by myself, it's when I have a passenger that it gets tricky as suddenly the pole wants to float up or smack down when the terrain changes and I have to be very careful and coach my passenger what to watch for and do as well. The way it is for me by myself, my getting in takes most the weight off the collars but leaves just enough that the vehicle is supported by them and sort of hovers in a horizontal sweet spot. I measured it with a luggage scale and if I recall correctly, without me in the vehicle there's about 5-6?lbs on each horse's neck and when I get in it goes to about 3.5lbs per horse. That's really pretty light for nice padded collars! I've gone to using a little stand for the pole as I'm hitching so they never feel that heavier weight, it's supported by the stand while I hitch up then I remove it and quickly climb in and everything is fine.

Leia


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## Margo_C-T (Nov 5, 2012)

LOL! I mentioned not having a 'too-narrow' axle width in my first post; guess you just didn't recognize it as such. The width of the wheelbase is determined by the length of the axle; therefore,when I suggested you not get 'too narrow a wheelbase'...that is directly correlated to the length of the axle!

with apologies to the OP for going a tad OT, but because I think it might be of some general interest to other drivers...Leia, I'd love to see some pics of your cart and pole, separate from the horses, and hear more about exactly what you did(besides having a longer axle installed, which you mentioned), to turn your basic EE into 'nearly' a Cape Cart. I clearly recall that you had little good to say about using the team pole that you can(or oould, before the 'real' Frontier ended cart building)buy from Frontier, back in discussions of a few years back; could you share what changed your mind?

Full disclosure: I did buy a team pole from Frontier, and used it just a few times, to 'start' some horses as pairs(ones who were already going as a single). It worked OK, but I would not try to drive regularly or on any seriously long/challenging drive with that rig, though I'd LOVE to have a true Cape Cart in mini size(am sure you could have one built, but at what price?? Might well be even MORE in cost than a suitable 4 wheeled vehicle!! I am no longer going to drive pairs. Just sold the 'other half' of mine(the one I DIDN'T breed and raise and therefore, love like another son) to a dear friend who will give him a good home for life, and a good job "training" youngsters and new adults in everything from Halter obst. to Hunter to Showmanship to Driving).I have sold one of my three pair vehicles, and plan to sell the other two, plus two sets of pair harness, and finally be able to concentrate on driving my 'over' mini.

Margo


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## starkadator (Nov 12, 2012)

Margo, you did indeed mention it in your original response, and I knew just what you were talking about. It did, however, just completely slip my mind. I ended up calling the manufacturer, and he is going to put a wider axle. That's going to make the wagon absolutely more stable. I'll post pics when I get everything hitched. Thanks for your help.


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## MiLo Minis (Nov 18, 2012)

Search "putting a pair to a 2 wheel cart Cape cart restoration" and you will find a really GREAT article about all the intricacies of setting one up properly. Personally I don't see the need to do so. Considering the number of affordable and appropriate vehicles for a pair that are available I would put safety and comfort of my horse ahead of experienting using a 2 wheeled vehicle for a pair.


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## hobbyhorse23 (Nov 30, 2012)

Yes, that's a great article MiLo! Too bad the cape cart video I learned from on YouTube seems to have been made private, I was going to post it.



Shipping is prohibitive on many pair vehicles, unfortunately. So is storage and transportation of that vehicle! Don't get me wrong, I'd still get one if I could, but I didn't have $1,500-$2,000 for a "cheap" carriage plus $500 for shipping plus somewhere to keep it plus help to load and unload it all the time. A buckboard or small spring wagon or such-like would not have worked with my breastcollar harness nor my intended usage and any of the used marathon carriages in my area were so heavy that my small boys would have trouble pulling them on anything but pavement. Until I can afford a Tadpole or similar light carriage with a suspended pole, the Cape Cart attempt was the best I could do! (Say, Margo, I don't suppose you want to pass on one of your pair carriages to me cheap? LOL)

As for what changed my mind about the Frontier poles, nothing did. I still hate them! I got mine from Silver Penny Farm and had them lower the doubletree to improve the line of draught. I honestly forget what other modifications I had to make after it arrived, but by the time I was done I'd changed just about everything. The reason I say it's nearly a cape cart is related to how it functions and rides rather than the construction. The main things to a cape cart as far as I can tell are that A) there's a yoke arrangement so the pole can't drop if the horses move closer together, and B) they aren't being jostled around by the movement of the pole because their connection to it floats. Also, the balance of the cart allows the pole to nearly float so the horses are merely steadying it rather than carrying it around their necks like an anchor. I didn't set out to do all that but the way my yoke connects to the pole now pivots and swings, allowing the horses freedom forward and back and up and down relative to each other. Because it connects to their collars by a round metal ring suspended on a black nylon dog collar threaded through the two rings on their breastcollars, the yoke floats back and forth in a similar manner to how the leather sleeve on a cape cart allows the pole to float back and forth on the bugle. This greatly smooths the ride compared to having a fixed yoke connection on a drop pole or a pole strap with a fixed and non-suspended pole. And since I have the balance just about right there's a sweet spot where the pole is happy to go along without wanting to either drag around their necks or go flying upwards. This is NOT true when I add a passenger of more than 100lbs, and I can see how that would quickly turn into a nightmare for all involved! Generally speaking MiLo is absolutely right that it is far more complicated to use a two-wheeled cart and way more trouble than it's worth. It just happens to work for me and my kids.





Leia


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## Margo_C-T (Dec 4, 2012)

Well, I'd love to see some close-up photos of the whole assembly...would be very enlightening!

Where IS Lakeport, CA. btw? Northern CA? I've never heard of it, so think it must be a small town or a suburb of somewhere else?

I don't think you'd need have concerns about loading/unloading a 4 wheeler by yourself if you have a trailer to put it into(Into the back of a pickup would be another thing!)...with ramps(I built my own out of some 8' 2 X 8" and 2 x 2" boards and screws, but commercial kinds are readily available for purchase), and am able to load/unload all three of my 4 wheeled vehicles by myself in/out of my 5 x 14' stock combo step-up trailer.T'would be even easier if you had a ramp trailer! I could haul both minis AND the vehicle in the trailer; stock trailers generally have a(removable)'center' gate that will serve to safely separate the horses from the vehicle.

And sorry, afraid I can't afford to let my vehicles go 'cheap'! I 've actually already sold the Glinkowski, to TMR here on the Forum. I will not be driving a pair anymore...it's just too much hassle in all ways for me now, regretfully. I have sold the gelding I originally bought to 'make' a pair w/ my 'homebred' bay gelding(to a lifetime good home w/ a very good friend). I still have two pair vehicles, and will be dispersing them eventually, too.

Margo


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## hobbyhorse23 (Dec 7, 2012)

Margo_C-T said:


> Where IS Lakeport, CA. btw? Northern CA? I've never heard of it, so think it must be a small town or a suburb of somewhere else?


You could call it a small town, yes! LOL. It's a little dot on the map two stoplights long about two hours north and west of Sacramento and three hours from San Francisco. The Lake County tourism website says, "One of California’s hottest new wine destinations, Lake County is just two hours by car from the San Francisco Bay Area, Sacramento Valley, and Pacific Coast. Lake County is home to Clear Lake, the largest natural freshwater lake in California and one of the oldest lakes on the continent, and Mount Konocti, an ancient volcano that recently opened to offer one of the newest day hikes in the state. Visit Lake County to enjoy the state’s cleanest air, spectacular scenic beauty, and unsurpassed recreation — hiking, biking, wine tasting, paddling, fishing, birding, golfing, off-road adventures, and even rockhounding." I haven't done much about discovering the recreation unless you count people-watching in KMart and the dollar store, but I can speak to the natural beauty and the clean air! The place is Horse Central and totally gorgeous.



Margo_C-T said:


> I don't think you'd need have concerns about loading/unloading a 4 wheeler by yourself if you have a trailer to put it into(Into the back of a pickup would be another thing!)... I could haul both minis AND the vehicle in the trailer; stock trailers generally have a(removable)'center' gate that will serve to safely separate the horses from the vehicle.


A stock trailer would be lovely. Unfortunately what I have is a two horse slant load with tack room, and since it isn't an extra-tall I can't even put a two-wheel cart upright in it nevermind have the floor space to load a 4-wheeler in with the horses. I wish!

Leia


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## Reignmaker Miniatures (Dec 7, 2012)

This is completely off the OPs topic but just FYI Leia, if your trailer is a bumper pull my BIL hauls a 4 wheel vehicle in the back of his small pickup. He loads that first and then hitches his trailer (a bit inconvenient since he must the unhitch the trailer to unload it but it does work) He uses straps to lock the front wheels straight and a come along to winch it up into the truck. Even my SIL can load it alone when she must so it can be done if you decide you really want to use a 4 wheeler.


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