# Lost our first foal



## Relic (Apr 24, 2011)

l don't know if it was born dead or alive was a colt or filly dog chewed it pretty good for that to tell...much as l loved my dog who's been here almost 5 years and raised around the mares and smart enough to know never to get in with a stallion from day one...sad to say she's been sent to doggy heaven. Not sure if that was the right thing to do l really didn't want to but l don't think l would have ever felt l could trust her around the minis knowing what she did to this poor foal..


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## Cavallini Farms (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh my, I'm so sorry


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## kayla221444 (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your loss of both...Not trying to be down or mean about this...but couldn;t you have found your doggy a non-horsey home? Just a suggestion I know its a little late now...


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## Allure Ranch (Apr 24, 2011)

_I'm so sorry for your loss.... _


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## ohmt (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your losses! HUGS


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## shelia (Apr 24, 2011)

OMG! I am so sorry!

My neighbors dog who has never tried to chase my horses (they are all in a dog proof fence) charged at my little Mishka just like he saw a cat. he has killed most of my cats. Mishka is a very tiny foal. I was standing there with her when he saw her and it scared me.

I am sorry that you had to lose your dog too, but it was probably for the best. He could have thought the foal did not belong there because he was new. It is hard to know just what they are thinking. I do not trust my own dogs around my minis even though they are shelties.

I can only imagine what you must be going through right now. This is one of my worst nightmares.

Again, I am just so sorry!


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## Miniv (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh my lord........The whole situation is so very sad.


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## ClickMini (Apr 24, 2011)

I am so sorry for both of your losses! A very bad day!


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## ForeverFarma (Apr 24, 2011)

So sorry for your loss, both of them.

Haiving had 3 minis killed by a pack of dogs, my boyfriend got his arm bitten through by a dog out of that same pack, a smaller mare chewed up in another attack, I have little or no sympathy for dogs who kill. Whether or not the foal might have been dead is irrelevant- the dog never should have touched it. IMO, even a non horsey home would not have been a good choice- how long before the dog started going after small children?

I have since gotten a mule as a pasture guard, and after the first 3 dead dogs I had to remove from the pasture, our neighbors figured out we were serious and started keeping their dogs home instead of letting them roam.


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## Eagle (Apr 24, 2011)

OMG you poor thing, I can't even imagine how upset you are. I think you did the right thing even though it must have been very hard. How is your mare doing? I send you hugs and prayers that you may all find peace after such a rough day.


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## Hunter (Apr 24, 2011)

OHHH Dawn, Huge Hugs to you. I am so sorry this happened to you.


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## Minimor (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh no Dawn, I'm so sorry. I would like to believe that the foal was born dead & that's why the dog did what she did--but without knowing that for sure I think you did the right thing.


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## eagles ring farm (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh I'm so sorry

What a terrible ordeal for you





((((((HUGS)))))))for all of you.


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## minimomNC (Apr 24, 2011)

So very sorry for your loss. But you did absolutly the right thing. Alive or not, once a dog gets the taste of blood, its very hard to stop them. And even in another home, it could then get brave enough to attack other animals or children. I would also say the foal was dead because I would think the mare had already figured that out and left it for the dog to get close enough to even touch it. When my mare had her foal, the dog couldn't even stand outside her door, she is very protective.


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## Genie (Apr 24, 2011)

Our sympathy goes out to you. Very tragic


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## StarRidgeAcres (Apr 24, 2011)

I'm so sorry for everything. It's a horrible situation all around. I don't currently have a LGD, but always did in the past and it was one of my worst fears - you can NEVER predict an animal, of any species. Although I'm sure it was dreadful I think you most certainly did the right thing. You possibly could have found someone willing to take the dog, but what if something else happened in the future? You would have felt responsible and it could have been prevented. Not that my opinion matters to you, but I 100% think you did the right thing.

Hugs to you. It's such a sad situation.


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## High Meadow Miniatures (Apr 24, 2011)

What a terrible situation, I am so sorry for your loss of both your foal and dog


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## Doobie (Apr 24, 2011)

So sorry to hear of your losses...

Both are terrable losses and having to make the choice would of been hard but you have to go with what your heart tells you is right.


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## Psultan (Apr 24, 2011)

I am sorry BUT that was your responsibility to make sure NOTHING can get to your mare foaling. Not to have feelings for your dog that just did what a dog will do if given the chance toooo. I feel it went from BAD to Worse in this situation and I feel for yhe animals as they do not have a say.

Kris


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## bannerminis (Apr 24, 2011)

Sorry for your loss


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## Kelsey - Vandy's Farm (Apr 24, 2011)

So sorry. That's horrible




You made the right choice. I agree....once a dog does something like that who knows if they will go after other animals or children.


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## supaspot (Apr 24, 2011)

Im very sorry , what an awful thing for you to deal with -a very difficult situation


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## Charley (Apr 24, 2011)

Truly a horrific situation and a tough decision...So sorry for your losses. Hugs to you!


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## jegray21 (Apr 24, 2011)

I am sorry for you loss. We had a dog chew up one of our babies, If I hadn't been there he would have been killed. She was not mine but was put down. She was not mine. It was horrible and I am so sorry you had to go through this



Some dogs just have a very high prey drive and that is not safe around minis. So sorry for your loss.


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## Helicopter (Apr 24, 2011)

What a nightmare. So sorry for all invollved.


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## dali1111 (Apr 24, 2011)

Oh Dawn I'm so sorry. How devastating. I would have done the same thing in your situation. Not only did you prevent this from happening again to you but you prevented other possible negative situations involving the dog from occurring. I'm sure it was tough, but the right choice. Keep your chin up. I hope the rest of the foaling season goes much better.


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## Mominis (Apr 24, 2011)

Absolutely tragic!


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 24, 2011)

Psultan said:


> I am sorry BUT that was your responsibility to make sure NOTHING can get to your mare foaling. Not to have feelings for your dog that just did what a dog will do if given the chance toooo. I feel it went from BAD to Worse in this situation and I feel for yhe animals as they do not have a say.
> 
> Kris






way to make her feel like crap Kris! geeze!





IMO, a domestic dog that does that needs to be euthed. i feel the op did the right thing. how long would it have been before the dog moved on to other animals, or worse, children? and this was their FIRST foal, what would've happened if they had another foal and this one made it? the dog may have attacked it in the pasture! i have two dogs that dont even touch my chickens. Kris, if your dogs do that you may want to look into obediance classes or possible rehoming.

OP, although tragic, you did the right thing


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## Psultan (Apr 24, 2011)

Molly said:


> way to make her feel like crap Kris! geeze!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Give me a break.....she had the dog for five years. I have dogs and always have had dogs and lots of mares foaling and never had a problem, why? Mares ready to foal need a quit safe and secure place to foal always and my dogs also know to stay away from the babies. So would you put the mare down if she stomped on your DOG? That's how bad this sounds?


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## ohmt (Apr 24, 2011)

Dogs and horses are COMPLETELY different in this aspect. Dogs are hunters and carnivores. Horses will not kill a dog for the taste of blood-they will kill a dog to protect themselves and their herd. Horses only hurt when they feel threatened in some way. That is not the case with dogs! I trust my dogs 100% with any animal on my farm. Any dog that attacked one of m horses would be put down immediately. The op has had this dog for 5 years and knew


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## ohmt (Apr 24, 2011)

Darn phone again. The op had the dog for 5 years-she did what she felt best in the situation and no judgement can be placed when you did not know the dog nor the whole situation as you were not there. Shame for placing more guilt-i'm sure the op feels plenty enough on her own!

Excuse any spelling errors. I am on my phone and cannot correct them.


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## Minimor (Apr 24, 2011)

Yep, any dog here had better learn to keep out of the way of the horses--because if the dog gets stomped on, it's the dog's own fault for being around the horses and not paying attention. I yell at the dog to get out of there, not at the horse to leave the dog alone!

I have rehomed dogs that I couldn't trust around the horses--but I rehomed them before they ever did any damage to anyone. Had any one of those dogs actually killed or attacked and drew blood, I'd have killed it myself, on the spot.


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## [email protected] (Apr 24, 2011)

Sorry for you having to go through this. I had a dog once that killed a goat 'accidentally', then a chicken a few years later. That was it for me, rehomed to a no other pet family in town.

Honestly though, I would imagine your dog found it dead, and wouldn't associate that to a living foal, as it's been around the Minis for 5 years and not been aggressive. I know my dogs find 'dead' things out in the orchard after its mowed. Rabbits, squirrels, etc., but they're not aggressive to the horses ever or our cats or poultry. In fact our LGD when she was a puppy tried to see what one of the weanlings was, she had green bite marks on her back and gives the horses a wide birth even now. Our oldest Aussie, will kill squirrels, rabbits, etc., when she can, but she's also the one that brought 3 day old kittens home (one a day for three days) she'd found out on our property and waited with them until we found them in the morning.

But again better safe than sorry, I'd rather have an animal dead or gone than worry about trusting it.

As for the chick that's blaming you - shame on you. She's sharing something painful and you helped how? I guess that if you don't have something nice to say don't say anything at all isn't a concept you get.


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## wildoak (Apr 24, 2011)

So sorry for both your losses...tough thing to do, but you would have second guessed yourself everytime you had a foal otherwise. We have 2, yearling Pyr/Anatolian males (neutered) that have me concerned. I was in the stall last week with my mare & foal she had just lost, and the dogs seriously got into it outside the stall, I presume because of the smell of blood. I got them for LGDs, and if they become aggressive they will be gone one way or another.

Jan


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 25, 2011)

Psultan said:


> Give me a break.....she had the dog for five years. I have dogs and always have had dogs and lots of mares foaling and never had a problem, why? Mares ready to foal need a quit safe and secure place to foal always and my dogs also know to stay away from the babies. So would you put the mare down if she stomped on your DOG? That's how bad this sounds?



do you know anything about horses and dogs at all?

if you knew anything about them you would know that horses are herbivours and dogs are carnivours. in other words, horses eat foliage, dogs eat meat. horses attack dogs because they feel thretened, dogs attack because they think its food. want an example?

my mare Misty never minded being around dogs until my dog nipped her on the nose, drawing some blood. Ever since then she went after any dog thats dumb/brave enough to go into her pen. She does it out of fear and self preservation. The OP's dog did this because its obviously got a higher prey drive/kill instinct than normal, which is dangerous.

i had my dog for 13yrs before she bit my horse on the nose, does that mean its my fault my horse got bit? i've also seen mares comftorably give birth outside, even when given the option of birthing in a stall. ever hear of all day turnout or 24/7 turnout? its not healthy nor is it wise to keep mares stalled all day and night because they are pregnant.

IMO, if you have nothing nice to say then dont say nothin. otherwise you may risk getting in trouble.


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## Dee (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh I'm so sorry relic! My thoughts are with u guys! Big hugs!


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## ThreeCFarm (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm so sorry this happened, but honestly, I would have done the same thing, no matter how hard it was. I used to have a dog that I didn't entirely trust, not that she ever did anything wrong, I just didn't think she was the type of dog I wanted loose around my other animals. She always stayed in the fenced backyard. However, my husband liked to let her loose to run when he'd walk our property when he'd come home for a visit (he's in the Army)...I kept telling him I didn't want her out as I didn't trust her. That stopped the day I told him I'd shoot her myself if she stepped out of line. I've had other dogs that I've taken to the barn with me over the years, but there was something about that particular dog... I ended up having to euthanize her anyway, as she had a tumor in her head.

Again, I'm very sorry for your losses, but I'm a firm believer in your decision.


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## little lady (Apr 25, 2011)

((HUGS)) RELIC. So sorry for your loss. I stand by your decision, you did what was best for you in your situation.


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## HGFarm (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh no! I can't imagine and I am so sorry for the loss of both, but I think you did the right thing for sure. Hugs to you- what a horrible thing to go through.


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## wingnut (Apr 25, 2011)

{{{{ hugs }}}} What an awful day to have at once.


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## a mini dream come true (Apr 25, 2011)

I am so sorry for your losses. Terrible situation, but being raised in the country and knowing the problems with dogs that get the taste of blood, I agree with you on your dicission. Any farmer or rancher will tell you, once they taste blood, they will continue to do it.


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## Taylor Richelle (Apr 25, 2011)

I am so sorry for your loss....but you did the right thing. I wouldn't have tried to find the dog a new home. What if it attacked a child or another small animal? Again I am sorry for both of your losses




((hugs))


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 25, 2011)

Molly said:


> do you know anything about horses and dogs at all?
> 
> if you knew anything about them you would know that horses are herbivours and dogs are carnivours. in other words, horses eat foliage, dogs eat meat. horses attack dogs because they feel thretened, dogs attack because they think its food. want an example?
> 
> ...


Pot, meet kettle!

There you go again, young lady, giving advice you do not take yourself.

Please stop this, it is annoying and tiring and serves no purpose.

OK, I feel for the OP, I really do, this is just awful, but, I know, I would not have put the dog down.

I am every bit as emotionally involved with my dogs as I am with my horses, and my dogs just are not allowed near the horses on their own, it just does not happen.

I know that Sam will "chase" and, being a dog, he will not know this is no game to the horses, even though he is capable of playing with Rabbit (who keeps him in his place)

If I left him he would, I have no doubt, chase until he caused damage.

With me there or at least around (I do not have to be standing beside him) he does not chase, and he does no harm. IF and it is a huge "if" I were derelict in my vigilance, I am afraid I could not find it in my heart to blame my dog, let along euthanise him.

(And yes, strangely enough, I do know the difference between dogs and horses and am a certified Dog Behaviourist, to boot!)

I am sorry, I am not blaming you, Relic, and what's done is done. I cannot call it for you, it was your call, and the dog has not, after all, been hurt, Better this way than keeping her chained up, or giving her to a shelter where god knows what would happen to her, I am only telling you how _I_ feel and what _I_ would do.

There is NO connection between a dog eating what was in all probability a dead foetus, btw, and a dog attacking a horse, and no connection (in the dogs head) between attacking what it sees as a prey animal and attacking a human...none.

A sheep worrying collie is a danger only to sheep, it never makes the connection between the sheep, which are prey, and the "master race" which is humans. So a sheep worrier can be safely rehomed with a family (so long as it has the correct temperament) in safety so long as it is never let near sheep again. Even a sheep worrier that has killed sheep, although rehoming is not usually an option!


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## Relic (Apr 25, 2011)

l'm sorry l offended anyone about my dog..l suppose thinking back now l could have just posted we lost our first foal of the year and left it at that..better still l guess the smartest thing to have done was to just keep my mouth shut altogether and not post at all...The mare wasn't due till the end of May so had a ways to go l brought her up into the foaling paddock less then 20 ft from the house so she could be watched for any foaling signs that should have started anytime about now she was having her 5th foal was a good and protective mom in the past and usually did go the full term. What happened with the dog is going to torture me for a very long time she lived right in with the mares and foals all year and never in the years she was amoung them was a threat even from the weaners when acting full of themselves racing around..she'd just pick herself up and lay on the other side of the fence and watch till they tired themselves out she never chased any mini at any time for any reason l knew of. She had a dark moment for sure and did what she did not knowing when the second time would or could happen and she'd do it again thats the part l was having the problem with in deciding what to do with her. Making this foal a meal and why this one why not one from 3 years ago or last year..a farm dog who eats horsemeat or any other livestock you raise was not in my mind a good prospect for rehoming..


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## rimmerpaints (Apr 25, 2011)

im so sorry but i agree with you i would never trust him again either. If i had to choose my horses or my dog it would be my horses.


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## Magic (Apr 25, 2011)

I wasn't going to say anything on this thread, but I have clear up some misconceptions here. I belong to an LGD chat group, have been a member for over six years, and there are a lot of owners and breeders of LGDs who feed their dogs raw meat. They even feed them raw meat of the very animals that these dogs are guarding, whether it be chicken, goats, whatever.



None of these owners/breeders have had ANY problems with their dogs then attacking ANY animals that they are entrusted to guard. Generally the dogs won't touch an animal that is still warm, they will even protect it from predators, but when it is fed to them by their owners, they eat it. Over many generations, that is usually what LGDs were fed, because that is what the shepherds had to feed them (besides what the dogs could catch on their own, and yes, they would catch rabbits, etc, to supplement their diet).

I'm not saying that Relic was wrong to put down her dog, but since the foal was surely born dead (not expected for at least another month) then the dog would not have been a threat to her other horses. Possibly to future foals? Hard to say, I don't know what breed of dog it was, or what its temperament was. My LGDs won't even touch a placenta when I take it out of the stall, but I know that some dogs would surely eat it. We each have to do what we feel is best for our individual circumstances. I just don't want people to think that if a dog chews on something dead that it finds,that the next step is attacking livestock.


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## Magic (Apr 25, 2011)

Castle Rock Miniatures said:


> Relic, we all have 20/20 hingsight, and others try to make our animals into people, but I truly believe you did the correct "farmer" decision. I believe you should take peace in that the majority of posters here feel yours was the correct decision.
> 
> Many will give examples, as above, about the LGD. But, truly, on a farm, you can not take a chance, and your first instinct was the correct one. And I also love and raise dogs, but I've always gone with my farmer's instinct and never regretted it.
> 
> {{{{{HUGS}}}}}





And I agree, regardless of what I previously said. Only a dog's owners know that dog, and if something it does "crosses the line" and cannot be trusted, then that is that, especially if you've had doubts about the dog in the past.

I have LGDs to PROTECT the horses, not harm them. Having them brings me immeasurable peace of mind. My Great Dane is super with the minis too,she's only out with them under supervision, but my Catahoula-- she just isn't allowed in with them, ever. Her chase instinct is too strong and I won't take the chance.


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## lucky seven (Apr 25, 2011)

Relic, you did the right thing with your dog. When mine was a puppy he learned that when our large horse put his head down to sniff, that he could grab ahold of the halter and pull and he almost pulled the horse off of his feet! That was the last time he was allowed near a horse without being on a leash. Then he started nibbling on a neighbors fingers, then nipped another neighbor in the leg. It just gets worse. We still have the dog, he is older, not allowed near children or people he doesn't know and has a chain link fence he can't get out of. I don't let anyones dogs near my 2 horses. Especially the mini.


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## Riverrose28 (Apr 25, 2011)

Relic, I agree you did the right thing. A couple of years ago there was a pack of dogs coming over every night attacking my mini's. I would go out a chase them throw things snap the whip. Once I fell in the mud chasing them around midnight. I had to sleep with the window open even in the winter to listen for barking. I called the owners three times to tell them to please keep their dogs at home, it didn't do any good. Hubby couldn't take it any more and shot one of the dogs. Needless to say they don't come around here anymore. I also do a lot of demos with the little ones, and last year we took two to the League of St. Mary's Animal Rescue for the kids to pet. We took two sheep pens to put the horses in thinking that would keep them safe. Well someone came up to one of the pens with a large dog that bit my filly on the nose, needless to say now she won't tolerate any dogs in her part of the field. My arabs will also stomp dogs into the ground since the ordeal with the running dogs. I have devoted my whole life to dogs, first in Vetrinary Science, then working as a assistant and progressing to dog groomer. I used to raise, breed and show. I never would want to hurt a dog such as the one my husband shot as I feel it was the owners fault and the dog didn't know any better, but some times enough is enough, you have to protect your livestock. You did what you felt you needed to do, don't beat yourself up over it. A word of advice though, every one needs a good dog! When or if you get another one keep it in the yard or only let it near the horses when supervised. Dogs will be dogs! Please don't take that advice wrong, but I've learned first hand not to allow even my own dogs around the horses with out me. Sorry for the lose of your foal and your dog.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 25, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Pot, meet kettle!
> 
> There you go again, young lady, giving advice you do not take yourself.
> 
> Please stop this, it is annoying and tiring and serves no purpose.






:shocked





Kris is blaming the OP for what happened, therefore making the OP feel worse, and I'M the one whose wrong???

i've told you this once before,IF YOU DONT LIKE MY POSTS THEN LOOK THE OTHER WAY! i dont get what is so very hard about that that you cant seem to understand





all you are doing is ticking me off and putting fuel to the fire, so to speak.

you think i'm annoying and tiring? look in the mirror, you are annoying and tiring to me.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 25, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> IF and it is a huge "if" I were derelict in my vigilance, I am afraid I could not find it in my heart to blame my dog, let along euthanise him.
> 
> (And yes, strangely enough, I do know the difference between dogs and horses and am a certified Dog Behaviourist, to boot!)



so if your dog seriously hurt your horse you would still keep said dog around horses?? that is extremely unwise and selfish for your horses! your other horses lives would be in danger, as would any horses that your neighbors may have!

i have to admit, i hate dogs. HATE them. with a passion. i was attacked when i was younger and i must say its the worse thing that has ever happened to me, something i wouldnt wish on any animal i loved.

(And yes, strangely enough, I do know the difference between dogs and horses and am a certified Dog Behaviourist, to boot!)

....are you TRYING to antagonize me??

IMO, calling yourself a 'dog behaviouist' means nothing to me. i've seen 'dog behaviourists' that couldnt tell the difference between a chihuahua and a doberman, and couldnt even teach a dog to sit.


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## Eohippus (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm reading the posts and watching my lap dog, curled up, asleep on her bed a few feet away. I couldn't even begin to imagine coming home to a scene like that. I'm so sorry about what happened, Relic. A person should have never to witness that nor face the choice you did.





But as I'm sitting here, looking at my dog, I'm trying to put myself in the OP's shoes, to try to see what I would've done. When it comes down to it I don't know because I wasn't there and my dogs are different then their dog, or any one else's dog(s). My little lapdog, Kia, isn't a threat to the horses, rather, the horses are a threat to her. So she's not generally allowed out with them (there are very few exceptions). Our GSD was professionally trained (well we were trained to train her type of deal) as a personal protection dog. She has her canine good citizen and since we raised her from 6 weeks old to gaurd our chickens, rabbits, etc I could never see her doing that. But I also don't think I'll ever have another dog like her, one that is so well behaved with all different animals and treats them like her own pups. She's definiately a one of a kind and an exception to everything. My aunt has a dog, on the other hand, who has attacked her other dogs before, bitten my stepmother's hand (she had to get stitches), and is very aggressive. I can honestly say if that dog ever made the wrong move around me (I've never been around to witness any of his poor behavior) I wouldn't hesistate to send him six feet under. Every dog and situation is so different I think there isn't one right answer or one wrong answer. You have to go with what your gut tells you at the time and thats the only right decision. Others can say what they would've and wouldn't have done but it makes no difference in a situation like this. They weren't there and every one has an different outlook. Some may be bias because they're a dog trainer/breeder others may be bias because they dislike dogs due to bad experiences in the past, some may have a "dogs are family" outlook and others may have the "farmers" outlook, or there might be a combination of attitudes/bias.

I think you made the right dicision for *you* which is the most important thing


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## slv (Apr 25, 2011)

I am so very sorry for your loss. I had to have a mare euthanized once, and could not get her buried that day...so covered her with a tarp. The next day I discovered that our bouvier had eaten part of the horse. Naturally this freaked me out and I thought it would be best to euthanize the dog. After consulting with some much wiser and more experienced dog owners than myself, I was told that dogs will try to eat dead animals so they don.t draw other predators to the farm....so it is all part of their protection plan......Well, I kept her around......and then she killed my cat that I had had for fourteen years She knew that cat lived here......she was just an evil dog. We rehomed her.....they were told everything about her. I know it must have been a tough decision....thoughts and prayers for you.


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## Marty (Apr 25, 2011)

Oh Dawn...... So so so sorry.


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## Riverdance (Apr 25, 2011)

I am so sorry to about your loss. I think you made the right decision. Chances are the foal was already dead, but once they get a taste, they will probably kill the next one.

I had a rescue dog from the pound. Had her about 2 weeks ( a german shepherd), she actually went under one fence, killed and ate a filly that I had. I brought her back to the pound the next day and had them destroy her.

Again, I am so sorry.


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## joylee123 (Apr 25, 2011)

Relic, 

I am so sorry you had to go through this. Sending {{{hugs}}}, prayers and supportive warm thoughts your way.

 

Joy


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## LaVern (Apr 25, 2011)

I am sorry for your loss. I am thinking that the foal was already dead.

We are dog lovers and horse lovers. We have never had any trouble with the dogs hurting or even scaring the horses. Their job is to protect them. But, there are a lot of mornings when I find strange stuff on the front yard. It might be a old deer carcass, a lot of afterbirth, muskrats, you name it. It seems the stinkier the better.

We feed our dogs raw beef every morning, so how are they to know they are not supposed to eat something that is dead. Especially something that really smells good and rotten.

But if a dog ever killed one of my foals it would be gone too.


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## chandab (Apr 25, 2011)

LaVern said:


> I am sorry for your loss. I am thinking that the foal was already dead.
> 
> We are dog lovers and horse lovers. We have never had any trouble with the dogs hurting or even scaring the horses. Their job is to protect them. But, there are a lot of mornings when I find strange stuff on the front yard. It might be a old deer carcass, a lot of afterbirth, muskrats, you name it. It seems the stinkier the better.
> 
> ...


You said it better than I could.

We raise beef cattle and live very rurual, so they dogs are always finding some "treasure" or another. Right now is calving season, so there are lots of goodies to find; lost calves, afterbirth, and all sorts of treasures. It was a hard winter, so there are deer that didn't make it. The dogs are always dragging something into the yard. but, if one ever went after a horse or foal or live calf, it would be gone.


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## sedeh (Apr 26, 2011)

I'm so sorry for your losses.



What an aweful thing to find!


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 26, 2011)

I agree that the foal was already dead, and I also agree that it is up to the owner.

Relic did not hurt her dog, I need to emphasise here that I think she did the responsible thing, if she could not bear to live with that dog any more- she did not hand the problem on, and the pounds are absolutely FULL of dogs, no-one, or hardly anyone, wants a dog in these hard times, killing an animal does not hurt it.

What I am trying to explain is that a dog does NOT make the jump from a foetus, already dead, a piece of meat, and a live foal, it just does not work that way.

Dogs are domesticated wolves, we control their instincts at all times. We also invite them into our lives, we have a responsibility to control their desire to hunt and kill.

If we cannot do this then the answer is to act as Relic did, to live up to the responsibility, and not to pass on the problem- if a passing, responsible, dog loving relative, who lives in an urban area, were to take the dog, OK, but in all honesty, how often does that happen?

My dogs are my life, when my bitches fought, and they fought hard and long, it was MY responsibility to make sure they were never left in a position where they could kill one another.

I did not do this by killing either of the dogs.

If I had been less invested in one of the dogs, or actively distrusted it, or thought I could not control it, I _might_ have considered putting one down, but I loved them equally, so I worked round the problem and made sure they were never in a position where fighting could occur, again.

Never, not once, did I even consider the possibility that either bitch would turn on me, that sort of "leap" just does not happen in a dogs mind. They were fighting one another, for second place behind me, the Alpha bitch.

With people, small children, handicapped adults, they were lambs, totally trustworthy. Now these are Dobes, dogs that have quite a bad reputation, certainly capable of taking down a grown man, when trained.

Now, the OP is living in a different situation to me. Possibly not as invested in the dog as a pet and a companion (this is NOT a criticism) and, at the time this happened, possibly no other alternative was possible.

The dog has not been hurt, and is beyond retribution or pain,I see nothing wrong with this action.

What I am saying is it is NOT necessary, in every situation, to assume your otherwise quiet and well behaved pet, who you love, has suddenly turned into a ravening wolf and needs to be shot before it attacks the children.,

This does NOT happen.

If you are in a position to make sure you dog never goes near a foaling mare again, there is no reason why you pet cannot live it's life out happily, content in the knowledge that you will stop it form behaving in any way you do not wish it to.

That is how a dogs mind works, they are not looking for ways to scare and anger us, they are looking for ways to love and defend us, often with their lives, we are their pack. Sometimes they step over the line, but this is more often than not merely because they were not aware that the line was there.

Like horses, truly "bad" dogs are very rare.


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## rabbitsfizz (Apr 26, 2011)

Molly said:


> :shocked
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes, you are the one who is in the wrong, you are the one who answered the post rudely and in a hostile manner.

And again, what is sauce for the goose. etc. If you do not like my posts, stop shouting and throwing your toys out of the pram at me, it will not get you your own way. I am not antagonising you, I am merely making a point.

You need to learn the difference.

Every time someone says something you do not like you go off the deep end, using capital letters (shouting) and rude attitudes.People are very tolerant of you, myself included, as we realise you are swimming against the stream, and it is not easy for you to relate to other peoples problems.

Please just read the posts addressed to you in the light in which they are meant, and stop assuming that we are all against you, the world does _not_ owe you a living because you have problems and, believe me, out there in the "Real World" you will be cut no slack at all. Here on the Forum we will work round you as much as we can, and I have seen many people being careful to do so. How do you respond?

Rudely and belligerently.

Slow down, take a deep breathe, and accept the words on the screen for what they are saying, _not_ what you read into them.

Please.

Now, you have a problem with dogs?

Fine, but, it is_ your_ problem, not the problem of the world at large. You are just not old enough to make the kind of sweeping statements, totally unsupported by fact, that you do. I have been working with problem dogs, professionally, for 20 years now- I am pretty sure that is longer than you have been alive?

PLEASE do not shout that doing something for a long time does not mean a person knows what they are talking about, this will get you no support as the vast majority of the people on this forum have huge fountains of knowledge, garnered only and completely form working with animals for a very long time.

ALL my knowledge of equine midwifery comes purely form having done it for years and years.

Sometime, Molly, you just have to accept that people actually _do_ know what they are talking about, and actually _do_ know more than you.

This is one of those times.

You know nothing about canine psychology, and you do not wish to learn.

That is fine.

Just stop shouting as if you do.

Please.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 26, 2011)

rabbitsfizz said:


> Yes, you are the one who is in the wrong, you are the one who answered the post rudely and in a hostile manner.
> 
> so Kris is in no wrong at all even though the only thing he/she is doing is making the OP feel like crap? Do you know Kris, is that why you have his/her back so much?
> 
> ...


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## SampleMM (Apr 26, 2011)

I have to agree with Molly's Run Minis in that Kris' comments more than likely made the op feel like crap and she sure doesn't need any type of guilt thrust upon her. The poor woman has been through a horrific experience and really doesn't need to be condemned.


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## Reble (Apr 26, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> My OPINION is if people feel the NEED to ARGUE with each other.. Take it PRIVATE please..


Thanks Mary Lou for your opinion and agree 100 %

This forum is to learn, share, and try to treat people

the way you would like to be treated.

It is getting hard with some folks, see some that just like to stir things up at times, maybe they are just bored or just do not care for certain members,





Seen this a lot lately.

Would be nice to create more topics of interest, but some are afraid to share.

Need to get back to learning and sharing our experiences and if possible

think before replying.

We need to learn to be more sensitive to peoples feelings.


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## Taylor Richelle (Apr 26, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> My OPINION is if people feel the NEED to ARGUE with each other.. Take it PRIVATE please..


Agreed 100% This post started out as someone losing their poor foal and their dog now it's turned into a war she doesn't need on her post.


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 26, 2011)

i sincerely apologise Relic, i never meant to turn your post into a fight. The horrible way Kris responded to your post angered me, and the fact that rabbitsfizz stuck up for Kris and threw my problems in my face angered me even more. i should've just ignored them. i'm sorry.





i hope you feel better soon, and know that you did the right thing


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## TMR (Apr 26, 2011)

I have been in your situation before with a dog and a chewed up foal. I also did not know if the foal was alive or dead at the time the dog got to it. I did the opposite of you and gave the dog a second chance (huge regret). Again this dog was 8 yrs old and had been with the horses and foaling all along never an issue. 3 weeks later I walked into another mare foaling early and saw the worst sight I have ever seen. My dog was actually biting at the placenta and foal as the mare was foaling. I was horrified. This was a black lab that was as sweet as could be. I assumed as everyone else has, that the first foal was previously dead at birth. I don't know what happened, if it was the taste of fresh blood or what, but seeing my dog grabbing at a placenta and foal that was not even out of the mare yet was horrible. The dog was immediately chained up and was taken to the humane society who stated they would probably not adopt him out due to what happened as they stated that it almost always gets worse and could not take the liability.

I fully believe you did the right thing as hard as it was. I have been in your shoes and wish I had done what you did. I hope this helps put you at ease on your decision. I cried over both for a long time. It is easy to say just keep the dog away from the horses, but in my situation the dog was raised with the horses from the time he was 6 months old with never an issue. I, to this day, don't know why he turned at 8 yrs old but know that I will never have a dog with my horses again.


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## miniwhinny (Apr 26, 2011)

Mary Lou - LB said:


> My OPINION is if people feel the NEED to ARGUE with each other.. Take it PRIVATE please..


ML I 100% thank you for posting that. The message board has become a place where we're all walking on glass. I'm sorry but Rabbitsfizz hit the nail on the head when she said



rabbitsfizz said:


> Every time someone says something you do not like you go off the deep end, using capital letters (shouting) and rude attitudes.People are very tolerant of you, myself included, as we realise you are swimming against the stream, and it is not easy for you to relate to other peoples problems.
> 
> Please just read the posts addressed to you in the light in which they are meant, and stop assuming that we are all against you, the world does _not_ owe you a living because you have problems and, believe me, out there in the "Real World" you will be cut no slack at all. Here on the Forum we will work round you as much as we can, and I have seen many people being careful to do so. How do you respond?
> 
> Rudely and belligerently.


I realize saying what I'm about to say is continuing this myself but so many of us are getting so fed up of this. If Kris had an opinion - it's her opinion, that should be respected. If the OP didn't want or expect to hear both sides here then perhaps the post would have only mentioned the loss of the foal. Even if some members agreed with Kris (or not) they shouldn't have to endure attacks. Maybe we should all hide behind a signature line because it certainly gives some people the right to attack just about any flavor of the day individual with absolutely no consequences (wait and see how quickly this triggers a response). I'd hate to ban anyone under 18 because of the actions of one from the "adult forum" but the friendliness of this message board has gone downhill drastically lately and many, many members are afraid to even post their opinions in case others take it personally. I'm a very patient person but this issue has become so one sided that even I've had enough.

Rabbit has been a valued part of this MB for a long time and she has some very valuable information to share. Some of the things that were said to her were disgraceful. I know - she has her own big girls pants and doesn't need my help, but seriously this is getting ridiculous!

So ML, your OPINION is if people feel the NEED to ARGUE with each other.. Take it PRIVATE please. SO other than asking...what happens is they don't? Because there is literally hardly a day that goes by anymore with everyone having to bend to one persons opinions or face the wrath.

?


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## Molly's Run Minis (Apr 26, 2011)

miniwhinny said:


> ML I 100% thank you for posting that. The message board has become a place where we're all walking on glass. I'm sorry but Rabbitsfizz hit the nail on the head when she said
> 
> I realize saying what I'm about to say is continuing this myself but so many of us are getting so fed up of this. If Kris had an opinion - it's her opinion, that should be respected. If the OP didn't want or expect to hear both sides here then perhaps the post would have only mentioned the loss of the foal. Even if some members agreed with Kris (or not) they shouldn't have to endure attacks. Maybe we should all hide behind a signature line because it certainly gives some people the right to attack just about any flavor of the day individual with absolutely no consequences (wait and see how quickly this triggers a response). I'd hate to ban anyone under 18 because of the actions of one from the "adult forum" but the friendliness of this message board has gone downhill drastically lately and many, many members are afraid to even post their opinions in case others take it personally. I'm a very patient person but this issue has become so one sided that even I've had enough.
> 
> ...


.....................

how many other people want me out of this forum?

i'm dead serious right now....how many others would rather have me gone?

ML, please dont lock or delete this, i have to know, how many others want me out of here and/or are sick of me?


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## ohmt (Apr 26, 2011)

Mollys Run, I love having you back. Please don't leave because of a couple of rude comments. If things have been unfriendly lately, it is NOT because of you. I have really enjoyed seeing some your posts. There will always be people against you, you just gotta roll with the punches. HUGS





I'm sorry miniwhinny, but your post was extremely uncalled for. Mollys Run had already posted an apology. And for the record, the only time I've seen her get defensive lately is when posts have come across as rude in the first place.

I'm sorry Mary Lou for adding. I just get frustrated when people pick on others-there's never a good reason for it.


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