# Time to learn about FRAME OVERO and Lethal White...



## Lauralee (Feb 18, 2007)

Well I have saved the best for last!!! I'm going to get several posts started, in order to demonstrate the various pinto patterns to the folks that are showing a desire to learn. Please help me by posting pictures that depict typical FRAME OVERO.

I am trying to avoid examples where it is obvious that the horse carries more than one pattern, in hopes that it can be demonstrated what each pattern looks like. Lets keep this simple so that other folks can learn from it. *Please do not complicate this thread with every color exception to the rule. That will only confuse newbies more.*

This topic should prove the most controversial because of the LWO gene which is responsible for Frame Overo patterns. LWO stands for Lethal White Overo. When the LWO gene is present in BOTH parents, there is a 25% chance of a foal that is pure white but will not live beyond 2 days of age because of an incomplete intestinal tract.

There is a test to determine whether or not a horse carries LWO. I'll let the discussion of LWO continue from there.

So what makes a LWO (FRAME) OVERO? (IN GENERAL)

LWO causes blue eyes.

LWO puts white on the face.

LWO keeps the white on the flat surface of the face (above the lips).

LWO puts white in the center of the neck like a streak of lightning.

LWO puts white on the rear portion of the belly.

LWO can have zig zaggy edges to the pattern.

LWO leaves the legs solid colored.

LWO does not cross the midline of the back.

LWO leaves the mane and tail colored dark.

When viewed from the side you will see a Frame of color surrounding the white, in the moderate expression of the pattern.

LWO can also be very minimally expressed, leaving the eyes brown, and no body white.

HERE I NEED SOME GOOD EXAMPLES OF FRAME! None of my horses exhibit a good pure frame pattern. Dona????


----------



## Ashley (Feb 18, 2007)

Well here is our frame stallion................







Here are some of his foals that have not been tested yet, but a few will be shortly. These are the ones I beleive carry frame.

This is a filly, and she does of minimal belly spots but you cant see in the pic(other side). Two blue eyes, bald face. Dam is a black mare






Another filly. Star, snip, one blue eye, belly spots. Dam is a bay mare


----------



## targetsmom (Feb 18, 2007)

Well I sure hope Dona or someone with wild frame patterns posts here. But I think this thread should include all kinds of examples of frame overos so that people get an idea of what horses might be LWO+ and thus should be tested. And remember that testing is only critical if you are breeding to a horse that is LWO+. There are no issues breeding LWO+ to LWO negative.

Our frame overo (LWO+) mare is shown here:






Yes, she has grayed out so you can't see her frame pattern but she does have white on both sides of her neck, white on her right flank, a wide blaze, and one blue eye. She is a registered Pinto.

Now, we don't own any LWO+ solid color horses but I know of several in this area. All these solid LWO+ horses are Rowdy bred. One is a bay stallion (featured in the Stallion Directory in MHW) who has only a normal sized blaze and no other obvious white. He may have blue eyes. One of these solid Rowdy-bred LWO+ mares had a lethal white foal when bred to a tovero (tobianoXframe). Neither of those horses exhibited the "typical" frame overo pattern, so they were not tested.


----------



## Becky (Feb 18, 2007)

Here is my lab tested frame overo stallion. McSperitts Rowdy Night Image 28.75". Very minimally marked being solid black with white face markings and a partial blue eye.


----------



## Dona (Feb 18, 2007)

Frame will typically leave at least ONE leg dark. Depending on the amount of white on the horse, it may have all four dark legs, 3, 2 or just one.

Frame can also cause blue eyes....but can have brown eyes as well.

Here is Apache....3 dark legs & brown eyes, color going down the back, flash marks on neck, and jagged edged markings.






This is MayZ.....1 dark leg, flashing on knee, 2 blue eyes, color going down the back with jagged edged markings.






This is Lacy....2 dark legs, 1 blue eye, 1 blue/brown eye, color going down the back & jagged edged markings.






And this is Monty....two blue eyes, color down back, 1 dark leg, flashing on neck, jagged edged markings.






All of these Frame horses also have varying amounts of Sabino roaning (as most of my Minis do). But they still show their true FRAME patterns very well.



:

Adding: Gosh, I hope you guys appreciate this.



: With my dial-up....it took me 40 MINUTES to go to Imagestation & download all of this. I HATE DIAL-UP!!!!!


----------



## Cimarron (Feb 18, 2007)

Lauralee, great job on these posts but what about Tovero's? That is where I am getting most confused! I have been told my colt Reflections Random Doodles CBY is a tovero. I know he has sabino because of the roaning trying to connect his white markings and he has a white spot on his bottom lip. Sheila

My colt is the one in my avatar!


----------



## Dona (Feb 18, 2007)

TOVEROS are a whole 'nuther ball of wax!



: You can get some really wild color pattern combinations!

Here is Topper (owned by Robin @ ROKO) .....he is a combination of Tobiano, Splash & and also tested positive for Frame. He has the typical tobiano markings on his body, but bald face & blue eyes. His sire is a Tovero (Frame, Sabino, Tobiano) His dam is a Tovero (Tobiano, Sabino, Splash).


----------



## rabbitsfizz (Feb 18, 2007)

I think the term "tovero" is very confusing.

Genetically Frame Splash and Sabino are no closer to one another than they are to Tobiano.

The only pattern that has to be identified for certain is Frame (LWO) and after that, apart form the in general "rules" of each pattern I would just go by what you see- for example to me it makes absolutely NO sense (except possibly in monetary terms, which is what worries me) to call a Tobiano with Sabino face whit a "tovero"

Just call it a Tobiano with face white!!!

When going towards minimal from maximum I have noticed that the legs are the first thing to go with Frame and the last thing to go with Splash.

Frame, in a fairly "normal" expression, does not usually cause blue eyes unless the white on the face touches the eye, and then often only on the side where it does, or in the place that it does (producing half blue eyes).


----------



## minimule (Feb 18, 2007)

I have one of the minimal LWO+ stallions. He is solid colored except for a tiny white snip on his nose and he has brown eyes.

Sequoia Alfalfas Hot Tamale.






The ONLY white on his body:






This is one of his foals that tested LWO+ showing the only white on his body, brown eyes.

Sagebrush Tamales Full Throttle






This is another of his foals that tested LWO+, but she does have very dark blue eyes, almost black.

Sagebrush Tamales Unique Belle


----------



## drk (Feb 18, 2007)

This is my 2 yr old 27" Frame Overo colt "*Magic Mans Top Ticket*" that is out of *LTD's Magic Man * and *Santanas Premium Lace * who is a daughter of *Little Kings Santana Supreme*.

He has 2 blue eyes. One is a dark blue and the other is a beautiful Sky Blue.











I also have a black minimal filly that is LWO positive for the Frame Gene that is out of a black frame overo stallion "*Magic Mans Referee*"

I have her pic as a foal where you can see her white areas.






Here she is in spring 06 but you cannot see her white coloring due to the angle of the pic and the grass.



:


----------



## Mona (Feb 18, 2007)

These are the only 2 frames I have here. They are half sisters, sired by the same stallion...

This is "Fame". He dam is a solid bay, no white. Her sire is red roan overo.(not sure what pattern(s) other than LWO he may carry.)









This is "Serenade". Her dam is a solid black, no white, and his sire is a red roan overo.(not sure what pattern(s) other than LWO he may carry.)


----------



## Scoopiedoo (Feb 18, 2007)

I am quite excited about this thread as I really DO want to learn and know about color, its just so darned confusing. I am adding pictures of a colt we have here, can someone please elaborate? Is this frame?

His eyes are half blue, both of them, it's strange. Not the best photographer in the world, but they're good enough to let you see his coloring. Thanks in advance for any help!

Jodi
















Have to say, I just cannot wait to clip this boy!



:


----------



## Dona (Feb 18, 2007)

Scoopiedoo said:


> I am quite excited about this thread as I really DO want to learn and know about color, its just so darned confusing. I am adding pictures of a colt we have here, can someone please elaborate? Is this frame?
> 
> His eyes are half blue, both of them, it's strange. Not the best photographer in the world, but they're good enough to let you see his coloring. Thanks in advance for any help!
> 
> ...


He could be Frame (facial white & dark legs)

He could be Splash (facial white & blue eyes)

But he definitely is carrying Sabino!



:

Does either parent carry the Frame (LWO) gene?

Cute guy! :bgrin


----------



## Dona (Feb 18, 2007)

rabbitsfizz said:


> I think the term "tovero" is very confusing.
> 
> Genetically Frame Splash and Sabino are no closer to one another than they are to Tobiano.
> 
> ...


I don't think the term "Tovero" is all that confusing. It simply describes a horse who has more than one pinto pattern. (Tobiano & Overo). If you call a Tovero (Tobiano with Splash white face for instance)a "Tobiano with face white". It leads people to think that white facial markings are common on Tobianos...which they aren't. That is why I tend to prefer Tovero. At least then, you know there are different pinto patterns present.



:


----------



## love_casper (Feb 18, 2007)

WOW! very interesting! i have a girlie i can show off.....Ghost



:

Her blue eyes are amazing.
















Other than her face and eyes, she has this white hoof and sock.






She may also carry Sabino, as she has little white ticking all over.

this is so fun to read everything about pintos, thanks for starting these Lauralee!!!!!



:


----------



## Songcatcher (Feb 18, 2007)

I think the confusing part about Tovero is that some people tend to think it is a gene of its own. It is NOT. It is a combination of Tobiano and any one (or more) of the other genes. It can be Tobiano + Splash, Tobiano + Frame, Tobiano + Sabino, Tobiano + Splash + Frame, etc. You get the picture. I do not have any Tobiano only horses. All my obvious Pintos have more than one pinto gene. The exceptions would be Millie who is minimal Sabino and would not be considered Pinto by most and Derby who has only a white star (most likely caused by Sabino).


----------



## CJMM6 (Feb 18, 2007)

Our mare, Moss Grove --CJMM Blaze N Flicka---Her dam is overo w/ blue eyes & her sire is a leopard

appy. Flicka has blue eyes, mottling and snow flake spots on her rump & neck. I figure I have the best of

both worlds. :aktion033: :aktion033:


----------



## minimule (Feb 18, 2007)

I'll add these two. They aren't minis but show the pattern.

This is Cheval, a 5 yr old Pintabian, 2 blue eyes











This is Stardust, 7 yr old QH/paint, 1 blue eye


----------



## Lauralee (Feb 18, 2007)

Ooooh I just love Ghost! Lucky you!!!!


----------



## Scoopiedoo (Feb 18, 2007)

Hey Dona, I'm really not sure, but did upload some pictures of his parents. I would appreciate anyone's ideas on what color he is too.

Here's Mom: She has one blue eye.






Headshot to show her blue eye, but it's a little dark, sorry.






And here is Daddy. He is not blue eyed.






Thanks for any help.

Jodi


----------



## Lauralee (Feb 18, 2007)

Jodi,

I would test that colt for LWO if his parents have not both been tested. Mom's blue eye makes me wonder if she carries LWO.

IF that is negative, then I'd say he is either sabino plus splash, or just plain sabino.

Either way he is a doll! Love that face!

How funny that you crossed those two colorful parents and got a minimally marked chestnut! But he has just the right amount of white! I like!


----------



## Scoopiedoo (Feb 18, 2007)

Thank you!




Think we will have him tested, it's worth knowing.


----------



## Lewella (Feb 18, 2007)

Frame face white - The shape of frame face white is "middle heavy". Frame face white wants to be wider in the area between the eyes and the nostrils than it is between the eyes and between the nostrils.

Frame, though described in most literature as a simple dominant is actually an incomplete dominant. It needs two copies to fully express - in this case that means a Lethal White foal. One copy of the Frame gene needs the assistance of another pattern to turn it on because it simply isn't strong enough to penetrate on its own. It is nearly impossible to find a "framed" expression level Frame pattern horse that is just Frame - sabino is the gene that normally assists Frame to express though splash can help also.

Frame wants all 4 legs to be solid. If there is a white leg, that indicates another pattern is present. (Again, it is nearly impossible to find a horse that is frame alone with complete "framed" expression).

Frame will not put white on the belly - that is a characteristic of both sabino and Splash.

Genetically speaking "tovero" is a nonsense word. All it means is a horse that is tobiano + one or more of the three patterns that fall under the blanket term "overo". (Overo has no meaning genetically either).


----------



## Becky (Feb 18, 2007)

Thanks for your input, Lewella! I'm breeding my sabino mares to my minimally marked frame stallion in the hopes that the sabino will help to 'pull' the frame pattern out in the foals.


----------



## Lauralee (Feb 18, 2007)

Well here is my minimally marked LWO carrier. He is also EE.

Oak Parks Hawks Resurrection is affectionately known as Scotty. He's my wittle wub.






I'll be crossing him on mares with other patterns in hopes of some nicely marked foals.


----------



## Dona (Feb 18, 2007)

Scoopiedoo said:


> Hey Dona, I'm really not sure, but did upload some pictures of his parents. I would appreciate anyone's ideas on what color he is too.
> 
> Here's Mom: She has one blue eye.
> 
> ...


Well, the sire appears to be a Palomino Tobiano (from what I can see). With the dam being grayed out....it's hard to tell. You can't really see her markings. But, as Lauralee said, with her blue eye, I would have either her, or her colt tested for LWO.



:


----------



## RJRMINIS (Feb 18, 2007)

*Here is my LWO Stallion Cohn's Exotic Echo, he has one brown eye and one blue eye.*


----------



## vvf (Feb 19, 2007)

Here is our lab tested minimal frame. Jones Call Me Phoenix

Both eyes are brown and the only white he has is the blaze.






Here is a lab tested frame filly. Valley View Hawks Hypnotic.

she probably has somethign else going on.

Both her eyes are blue, with one being dark blue.






and another lab tested frame. Valley View Hollywood Hawk, both blue eyes






I must say these topics are very interesting.

Lewella, you are very knowledgable, I am learning alot from your posts.


----------

